180° - The Movie

180° - The MovieChristian Evangelist, Ray Comfort attacks again. The main premise in this film is the portrayal of abortion as modern Holocaust, thus claiming to be a powerful, irrefutable argument against abortion that it will reverse pro-choice opinions within seconds.

The argument goes like this: Hitler murdered Jews. Abortion kills babies. Therefore, abortion is just like the Holocaust.

The interesting thing is that this secret that can change people's opinions 180 degrees on the issue of abortion in seconds actually is a thirty-three minute long film which doesn't really give an argument that can be made in seconds as promised.

Watch the full documentary now

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Ratings: 5.50/10 from 30 users.
  • Stepheth

    Sorry, didn't change my mind about abortion. I feel like comparing abortion to the Holocaust is immoral in and of itself.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000343116764 Egmedio Marcelo

    decieving question....

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mercenarry-ForHire/100000621480223 Mercenarry ForHire

    I agree.

    Two completely Different subjects.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Voidhanger Jeffrey BigDaddy Shaver

    Ugh, This guy is dreadful.

    I'd rather listen to Jim Jeffries

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mercenarry-ForHire/100000621480223 Mercenarry ForHire

    I ve'd learned that you can always Rationalize any thing or change any ones mind with the right words and examples.

    But it works both ways. :D

    Theres been all sorts of people who have changed there minds and switched to the opposite views.

    I have seen things in this worlds that i find most humans dont realize, i usually find my self examining conversation in multiple levels, worlds, psychology and emotionally.

    Truly remarkable. ( Humanity, blessed with a great gift but unable to put its differences aside.)

    I liked listening to this but it offers no real information, other than a fact here and there.

  • PaulGloor

    Ray comfort introduced himself and I sighed. Some history happened, ok, I can see this through. Then begins the loaded questions. I think these people are caving in just to shut him up.

  • Sion88

    Ray is funny.

  • Sieben Stern

    funny, he's concerned that we're forgetting the holocaust when he couldn't even bother to educate himself about how modern bananas came about when he wanted to claim that god designed them for man.

    the man is a joke that isn't funny anymore.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    if anything after watching this you will only wish that Ray Comfort's mom had been a fan of abortion....

  • dewflirt

    He got it so right with bananas he must be right about this too. What a guy :/

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_YS4NSMINZLID44BUQJ7S7B6BH4 Tommy

    Brilliant! hahaha

  • Pysmythe

    Hey, Ray? "Find a wood chipper and dive in."
    (3 min. is all I could stand.)

  • martin horan

    Am I the only person who thinks this guy should be in a Mental Institution being served 'Crocaducks' as a main course followed by a dessert of 'Proven Facts'

  • http://www.facebook.com/richard.huckle1 Richard Huckle

    Abortion will not only remain legal, it will become mandatory for the unfit! Otherwise in 50 years there will be 50 billion r*tards walking the planet. Ignorant, mouth breathing, materialistic whores, without a clue, and sadly under the impression that they have a right to their backwards opinions/beliefs. ABORTION, is the last resort, for the tards that can't keep their slutty legs together, and ass in seat getting an education. I try not to puke while I walk down the streets; perpetually surrounded by the unfit, and watch as the children of every successive generations devolve still further before my eyes. And this is california, you should see the other states - OMG!!! Is everybody else blind, or tarded? Once in a while I see another human but they are usually brainwashed by TV. Ray Comfort probably hates abortion because at some point somebody in his family bush must have raped somebody (during the 8000 generations long family history, minimum length), as who would sleep with that genetic code. He is an ignorant, stupid, illogical, ugly, short, all round unfit to breed, ape. I guess he has plenty of unfit apes to choose from. 3 minutes that's as far as I could make it without flipping out, I'll attempt to watch the rest of this rubbish now, for a laugh.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/John-Jacquard/1210162491 John Jacquard

    good point

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Reda-Neggaz/100001135926963 Reda Neggaz

    you don't see those jews what are they doing? they make all the humanity feel guilty about what hitler did to exploit the world, the world war 2 killed 50 millions people all over the world why only the jews are the story in this war? think about it.

  • martin horan

    And what Oh Wise One defines a 'r*tard'? In 50 years, 50 billion people ; 8000 generations etc, etc, etc. - love the statistics. OMG I take it stands for Oh My God - Do you think the invocation of an imaginary friend classes you as 'tard'?

  • lex lexich

    if abortion is murder then wanking is genocide

  • martin horan

    If the oil in the Middle East dried up in the morning, the Americans would stop taking care of Israel. You are right, Reda, the Jews seem to have cornered the market on 'Oh, look what happened to us' without the world seeing that they are capable of doing the same to others.

  • martin horan

    Where's my reply to Richard Huckle disappeared to??????????

  • http://www.facebook.com/kor.span Kor Span

    what a load of crap

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7NZ2QBWUQBBOWVRCZORZSV2TEM alans

    Abortion, such a boring topic, and a whole documentary on it. Seriously?

  • rabidmunks

    i would have loved to see a person of african descent ask the film maker if he thinks slavery is moral. if the fact that many jews were used as slave labour during hitler's reign. and if he answered no i wonder then if he'd do a 180 on the fact if the anti-choice people have their way women are simply slaves. no autonomy over our bodies. i am no fool, and to think anyone could have some awesome bullet proof argument is foolish. it is not black and white and it is not an easy choice. i doubt many think it is. but hell i am glad i have a choice. i will always find it morally repulsive when people take thier 'hope so's' and 'fingers crossed' beliefs that can never be proven and try to make laws all people have to adhere too. believe what you want. but don't make me live according to your beliefs.

  • Guest

    Materialistic whores with slutty legs rarely make babies alone, you seem to narrow it down to women.
    az

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Dean-Edgington/1003719946 Dean Edgington

    Tut tut, sounds like someone got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/BZIFCVDFV5UMYW7HTSJZO3WRH4 Derek Kael

    You wanna ask a pertinent question? Ask these:

    1) Are you willing to force women who become pregnant to carry a child to term whether they want to or not? If so, aren't you essentially turning women into breeding slaves?

    2) Is it right to tell a woman that she has full rights and autonomy over her own body UNLESS she gets pregnant? Then suddenly all bets are off?

    3) What are you prepared to force women to do to keep gestating children they don't want? Prison? Restraints? What?

  • moblair22

    man i rather go to hell than listen to this Monkey talk.
    is time to watch some alien documentary.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jon.langham Jon Langham

    at the beginning of this documentary , I had the following comments:

    {
    It's stating the obvious.

    If you want to talk about racists's and Nazi's that do not believe in the holocaust, you should look at the reasons why people become racists, why have they been segregated? and why have they been indoctrinated into thinking racist thoughts.
    }

    But at the end!

    This isn't a respectable documentary.

    It's not impartial.

    It's an anti-abortion advert.

    There really should be a new subset of genres for documentaries.

    Either impartial, or totally biased and trying to make the viewer believe what you want them to believe.

    It's despicable.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=15601111 Taylor Ryen

    What a ***-backgrounds way of comparing a blackswan event like the holocaust to having an abortion.

    I thought this documentary was going to be about holocaust deniers. Then it turns religious and removes common sense by asking leading questions using extremes in an effort to simplify a complex argument.

    Also thanks for taping all the r*tarded shmucks walking the board walk in santa monica... go tape r*tards in your own country.

    On that point, do you really think the world needs more useless people like the ones in the video declaring that abortions are "the devils work" so they can pop out more uneducated children that will bring down society. None of the people pictured looked to be like fit parents.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_F3VB6OQ6SK7P234XBW5RG7BQRY harry nutzack

    interesting historical factoid: the drop in crime during the late 80s to mid 90s in the us occurred in cyclical fashion in correlation to the roe v wade decision (as abortion became available, in 18 to 20 years the adult crime rate plummeted). conversely, as "right to life" legislation took hold in the late 80s to present, a marked uptick in frequency of juvenile crime occured(also in correlation to the legislative action, delayed by 12 years or so), which now has given us a recidivist, violent adult criminal population yet again. this is the true legacy of the "right to life" movement. unwanted, resented, neglected children become criminals. criminals without family support/ties tend toward recidivism. can anybody guess what recidvist criminals tend to turn to while incarcerated? religion.... yet another example of why one should be VERY wary of those claiming to be motivated "for the children".

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_JGTQO44NI3PPWYL2B4FPK6JZVU Julian

    Infanticide was practiced widely in some cultures. What is accepted by current culture will continue whether moral or not. Most people are unthinking or have selfish motives, babies lives are the least of their concern if it intereferes with their convenience. If abortion is banned, infanticide will increase.

  • http://www.facebook.com/richard.huckle1 Richard Huckle

    When you die you rot in the ground. Unless you are in the Top 1% of praise's then you get to praise God non-stop for an infinite period of time. Oh course we are all sinners so by christian doctrine we get to praise Satan for an infinite period of time. AND when is abortion more loving than allowing the birth? When the Doctor determines that the baby will be born with one of the incurable, severely, debilitating diseases and drastically impairs one's chance of living a happy, healthy life; and instead condemn a soul to an awfully painful existence. THIS IS COMMON-SENSE PEOPLE. But in this system of capitalism it is also required to have an abortion if you can't afford to give a child a decent life. Then correct your behavior in future. Save up to ensure a stable home life for the child and marry, and only then try again. IN THIS NUT JOBS WORLD: It is perfectly fine for a 15 year old that is pregnant due to a rape, to drop out of high school to raise the kid, and give up your chance of college, and ruin her shot of meeting somebody decent while in college. No he insists that my hypothetical example raise the genetically inferior son of a rapist. Wow the trauma this nutter wishes to inflict on others because he is so gullible that he actually believes that a man-made, contradictory book somehow contains the word of god. wow...really? we just made that book to persuade the dimwitted people not to murder regular, decent folks, not screw around with his neighbor's wife, and not steal from some richer fella down the road. We have got to write a new book for Christians cause we can do a better job than that crappy book. Hell we can easily edit and craft our work whatever they wrote was in ink for good. Then we can indoctrinate them with some gobbledegook that is at least fitting with our age, not from 20 centuries back. Of cause after Christians first got hold of the bible during a time of enlightenment there was a 1400 year slide backwards. If they truly believe in Christ they should 1. live a life of poverty, like Jesus would do. 2. stop wasting medical SCIENCE on themselves, Jesus will save them. 3. stop messing with gods divine plan by using SCIENTIFIC innovations like: electricity; automobiles; vaccines; medicine; genetically modified meats, grains and vegetables; PC's; camera's; TV's; phones, bikes, planes; trains; banking; buildings; elevators; diagnostic scanners; etc. While you ate it apologize to scientists for your holocaust against scientists.
    4. stop supporting the Republican party seen as it is for capitalism, big business, and disproportionately taxes to ensure the rich pay next to no taxes. All quite anti-Jesus policies. 5. Jesus never warned about abortion, or gay marriage, so get over yourselves, and stop trying to interpret "GOD's WILL" from a man made book that was edited by every King and Pope over 2000 years.

  • Tomtesla

    I have a question that I ask anyone who says that they are anti-abortionist. The line they all use is adoption not abortion. My question in response is how many children have you adopted. In 25 years of asking that question not one time has any of them ever said they have adopted any children. Usually what I get in response is silence. My response is you should practice what you preach. Please feel free to use that question.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1380362206 Jared Boyes

    The world needs it. We can't even take care of the kids we have now.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_F3VB6OQ6SK7P234XBW5RG7BQRY harry nutzack

    now, a critique of the "film", and mr comfort's methodology. firstly, mr comfort begins by lying. "im a jew" is one of his first lines, yet his philosophy is obviously evangelical. his espousing of jesus and such opinions as "he died for your sins" is at odds with jewish teachings. next, he uses obviously cherry picked imbeciles to try to illustrate mass ignorance of hitler and the holocaust. next, he segregates his "common folk" into a couple of camps, those who find hitler abhorrent, and those who see him as heroic. the first camp is then subdivided, those who would participate in atrocity to save their life, and those who wouldnt. those who would are then further subdivided into those who see a moral difference in modality of participation, and those who dont. he then prods all to declare their "morality". after asking about the individuals position on abortion, he then "pushes" their opinion by comparison of the 2 acts (participation in atrocity, and condoning abortion.)further, he declares those who find themselves "moral" are "sinners", illustrates his opinion by leading questions that will obviously, if answered honestly, show non-compliance with "the 10 commandments".then, an interesting change comes over mr comfort. he berates the one gent for "not taking responsibility for his actions" in his own mind in his declaration of disbelief in god.but, mr comfort then offers up that "jesus can pay your fine for you". this "clean slate" allows one to negate ALL previous sin.this "clean slate" theorem is carefully laid into the minds of all participants. he "sells" them on the immorality of abortion.first, he instills "sympathy for the victim". next, "non-objection as participation". he then leads participants in a series of questions they will answer with a "yes". one of the keys of sales is removing "no" from the buyers vocabulary. he breaks down reason in his "buyers", both by sales pitch, and abstract moral argument (weighted by christian doctrine, and no other). during both, he "tests" effectiveness of the pitch, and pushes that which steers the individual best, while downplaying that which doesnt. in short, he gives them a rapid brainwash, then an injection of opinion, backed of course by "the good book". very similar in technique to goebbels' vilification of the jews in the minds of the german populace (if "a" is true, and you find "b" repugnant, then "c" is obvious). it's a carefully crafted propaganda piece. i have little doubt the editors floor was littered with opinions and views that didnt "work" for mr comfort's desired message (in ALL stages). a glaring example is the pro nazi guy with the straw hat in the second stage of the pitch.after his declaration of "hitler as hero", he entirely disappears from the cast. yet the guy with the ludicrous spiked mohawk is featured throughout, because comfort was able to steer his final declarations. many folks disappear at stages throughout, leaving only those who comfort could push for the finale.the viewer is supposed to walk away feeling ALL participants 180'd, thus making it the "right" position. it very much reminds me of the goebbels piece "the eternal jew" featured elsewhere on this site. ALL filmcraft is meant to "push" the mind of the viewer toward a view, but this crosses the line from kapra to blatant "mind control". thanks TDF, for supplying yet another film worth watching, even if not for the reason it was produced.

  • roudan

    thats once again show how uneducated people in america really are. and this annoying guy who puts words in people mouths and trying to make them feel guilty about a matter which clearly should be anyones choice. in romania are so many children without parents living in appalling conditions waiting forever to be adopted and most of the time ending on the streets or being abused or dead before they reach 20 and im pretty sure this is happening all over the world.

  • akaacmeinc

    if his "God" gave people free will to chose, why does he think its ok for women to NOT have a choice. God gave them that choice right? He's not questioning that right? If it wasn't for the people making choices that his religion teaches him to condemn, he couldn't feel so righteous in his narrow perspective. Therefor, he owe's those 'sinners' a thank you for giving him his own view of what god thinks he should not have created. Were was he when god needed him? I will bet his god thinks "Christians" are the best-est in the whole wide World!" I have found, most so-called pro-lifers are the biggest "killers" when it comes to capital punishment, Nature, crusades and manifest destiny. They cant speak for any god, i wish they would stop trying, its embarrassing in front of the aliens.

  • akaacmeinc

    People have been saying that before you were even born.. lol

  • akaacmeinc

    Ya good point...Also when is it "OK" to FORCE a women to carry and have birth to a baby that was from a rape, or may cause her death, leaving her other kids motherless etc..Guy cant speak for ANY God!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Charles-Alderson/100001294124792 Charles Alderson

    F**k this guy. Stay out of other people's life. The answer is not abortion of course. The answer is to not have sex with your significant other until you are 100% sure you are ready to have a child with the woman. It sounds kinda gay, and I've lost several girlfriends because of waiting to have sex with them for the first several months ~ year, but me personally I don't do it. My fiance who I was with for 5 years, who I told I would never make that choice for her since it is her body and I will always let her decide what to do with her body, she got pregnant in Feb. 7 years ago, didn't tell me, got an abortion, and told me several months later. This was after 5 years with her. I've been single ever since. I can't bring myself to be with a woman until I'm sure I'm ok with either having that kid, or letting her choose what to do. The choice isn't mine. The problem is nobody is held accountable for what they do anymore. People should stay out of other people's life though. Until this guy gets raped and has to have that child he needs to just shut up. He's lucky he didn't ask me these questions in the street.

    Asking them to vote based on abortion rights is the worst reason to vote. The government are the last people on earth that need to have their hands in a woman's womb. Man I hated this doc.

  • fonbindelhofas

    Trash alert!!!:D
    btw is this a banana man?:D

  • ThisDarkChestOfWonders

    I refuse to believe that these people at the beginning really don't know who adolf hitler is. I can understand that they don't know he was actually austrian, and not german. I could even grudgingly except that most the 20 year olds in the usa do not know he was a fascist dicatator and was vehemently anti communist. Sadly, I can even understand that most young americans would not understand the difference between those 2 forms of government. But i absolutely refuse to believe that all those people had no idea who adolf hitler is. That had to be fake.

  • ThisDarkChestOfWonders

    Ha, this guy is ridiculous. He shows a bunch of holocaust images and compares it to abortion? We have 1 billion people starving on the planet. Overpopulation is choking our civilization, and this joker is going around on his high horse calling abortion murder? Stopping the growth of an unformed fetus that isn't even conscious of its own existence is not murder. It's not pretty, but neither is about everything our society does, and at least this does solve many problems in impoverished families and societies. I would love for someone to get some dirt on this guy. I don't like michael moore, but i bet he could get the job done. Even if its have truths i want this dude put through hell. I wished he put a mic in my face. =P

  • alpinstang

    Or they cut out all the people that did.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZJRXQ6RHS5QPRP3QX5HZDKRZLE Jeremy

    I meet High School seniors @ work that are doing summer jobs that have never heard of 9/11. You'd be amazed man, people are even stupider now than they were 20 years ago when I first realized most people are dumb. This documentary is HILARIOUS tho, LMAO throughout. Good stuff!

  • Irishkev

    Hey, I have trouble breathing through my nose sometimes, does that make me a "tard" ? I find that only ignorant people use words like "tard". Your post stinks of eugenics which is a pseudo science . Anyway it must be tough being perfect , having to share the planet with all us "tards" , I feel for you Richard , or may I call you D*ck ?

  • Irishkev

    Hey , materialistic whores with "slutty legs" (whatever they might be), need love too you know, lol.

  • Irishkev

    And mine !

  • blaxparx13

    This guy is a nut. A baby is alive as soon as it is born. Abortion is not the Holocaust. Hitler killing people was bad but it's not the same issue at all as
    abortion. He won't be changing my mind on this any time soon . At least not using his arguments. I'd be happy to have a friendly argument on this subject. I'm an atheist and have degrees in Philosophy. He can go ahead and believe that crap but he needs to let me ask him some questions. My advice to him is go off and do some real thinking.

  • Jayjay30

    Pro-abortion people talk about choice and the right to have a choice for the mother ; My question is does a child have a choice or a right in the matter of them being born or aborted ? and if they both have a choice and rights whose amongst the tow come first ? In my opinion a mother has a choice to or not get pregnant and if they do get pregnant the fetus rights are most important .

    As a society if we see it necessary to intervene when a baby is being abused by it's own parents and we have gone as far as setting up social services to protect the baby from it's abusive parents, why then do we promote and make available a choice for a mother to kill her unborn child ?
    I only wan't to understand the logic of pro-abortion people.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Sacco-Svd/860425351 Sacco Svd

    Well I wouldn't compare the holocaust and abortion. It drifts the whole subject away, which is "young generations ignoring about the holocaust"

  • Achems_Razor

    @Irishkev:

    Sorry there Irish, It ain't me honest! blame the moderation system, it does not like 4 letter words even some benign ones lol

    Your post is on now.

  • Irishkev

    Cheers Achem , wow are you a mod now , I used to be a ska in a past life .

  • Achems_Razor

    @harry nutzack:

    A very good post with very good writing.

  • capriciouz

    You're confused because you're allowing yourself to think of a fetus as an individual. This is a logical fallacy because a fetus is obviously 100% dependent upon its mother, instantly barring it from being viewed as an "individual" at all. Moreover, how does a fetus which has no emotions, feelings or thoughts somehow warrant "rights" anymore than a tumor? Admittedly, it might sound brash or callous to compare a fetus to a tumor; but medically speaking, they're entirely comparable. Both are technically "alive" and, simultaneously, both are entirely dependent upon the resources of their host. Logic should dictate to you at this point that the only "person" that exists in this equation by default should have the right to decide.

    Bottom line: an apple seed is not an apple tree anymore than a fetus is a human. We have different labels for the various stages of life for a *reason*.

  • Jayjay30

    So when the legal system gives a harsher sentence to a guy who physically attacks a pregnant woman compered to a guy who also physically attacks a not pregnant woman; what are we saying about a pregnant woman in comparison to a not pregnant woman.
    The relationship between the potential of what might become of a fetus and what fully developed humans conscience is what's confusing me. the fully developed humans have laws based on conscience that are meant to protect LIFE that can not defended it's self. What reasons are the same fully developed humans using to KILL LIFE that can not defend it's self ?

  • Irishkev

    "Christian Evangelist" , says it all really . Sick propaganda.

  • Teddy Mcd

    TDF - the site where people never sleep. I'll watch it later while you guys fight it out.

  • robertallen1

    It's a choice between bringing an unwanted or misbegotten child into the world or not--and the latter is far more justifiable than your pseudo-moral ground.

    Also, if the fetus is the product of rape, forcing the mother to go through the trauma of childbirth if she does not wish to do so is exacting an unjust and unwarranted penalty. If I were a woman and this happened to me and I were told that the law requires me to have this child, I would deliberately and openly miscarry in front of as large a group of witnesses as I could gather and then defy the law to take its course.

  • robertallen1

    Interesting, creative and viable.

  • harley67

    typical mind control like all religions are

  • Guest

    Your question makes sense and i like that it is a question not an attack.
    Of course we do not, can not know what the awareness of a fetus is. We don't know what the awareness of a newborn baby is.
    Abortion has been happening for ever. The law cannot stop women and men from not wanting a child.
    This doc is ridiculous. I wish a well done, intelligent doc was at the root of this thread of conversation.
    az

  • Jayjay30

    I knew the rape cases were coming in to this debate and I agree with you. The rape victim has to have a choice and that choice should be only available to a victim if she reports the crime and her health along with catching the criminal becomes a priority since it's a conscience not a choice law. The weird thing is in comparison to facilitating rape victims abortions the law is mainly being used for abortions unrelated to rape.
    I think the law should not allow women who haven't been raped to abort and in the process, protect the vulnerable, defenseless LIFE.

  • http://princejaka.wordpress.com princeton

    A growth in the womb is not a baby until its brain is fully functional. before this point it is akin to a cancer/parasitical growth in the womb which could potentially be deadly for the host. as muchas we may not like hearin it, life is not so precious and rare.. it is the most common? thing to our experience and bringing a life into this world without the proper desire or preparation could lead to worse things than death, like a child who ends up being so tormented he/she commits suicide.

  • Guest

    we just don't sleep at the same time...the world is round.
    az

  • http://princejaka.wordpress.com princeton

    All this noise from people about protecting LIFE.. they don't bat an eye at sanctions that cause millions of deaths for ACTUAL children and the elderly, don't blink at drug laws that cost thousands of people the best years of their lives, advocate for wars that kill thousands of innocent civilians and reach for that can of RAID with no hesitation. These are all meat eaters who don't even think twice about the life they took to enjoy that meal, yet some embryonic growth being terminated before it becomes a full human being is holocaust.. the hypocrisy, insanity, ignorance and lack of empathy is astounding.

  • robertallen1

    Suppose there is no issue of health, but simply of rape, should that woman be forced to bear the child?

    Did it ever occur to you that criminalizing abortion will not stop women from having it done--but with far more dire consequences? So one way or the other, the fetus "loses."

    Quite frankly, I think you have your nerve dictating on matters of personal choice, conscience or no conscience.

  • http://princejaka.wordpress.com princeton

    until the so called child's brain is functional. choice is a meaningless concept to apply to it.. did the thousands of cells your immune system wiped out today have a choice in the matter? aren't they life? did that (hypothetical of course) tapeworm feeding on your tissue have a choice in your eviction?

  • robertallen1

    Tell that to a Catholic or a fundamentalist!

  • Jayjay30

    @Azilda,
    Abortion having been happening for years still does not make it right does it ?
    If the law can not stop women and men from not wanting a child does the law have to allow women and men to KILL a child ?
    I'm Only trying to understand and see it from a different point of view.

  • imdwalrss

    Of course I haven't viewed the introductions to every film on TDF, but it is interesting to me that this is the only one I've read that negatively assesses and attempts to refute the content of the documentary.

  • robertallen1

    Try looking at it this way. It's none of your business.

  • imdwalrss

    And in the process does not recapitulate the argument particularly accurately.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Martin-Ellacott/527692586 Martin Ellacott

    Comfort is an articulate man but a religious crack-pot.....and the ignorance of the young people at the beginning of the video clearly indicates a totally failed educational system.

    Abortion is the decision of the woman and her's alone. If you don't want an abortion don't have one, but you have no right to dictate or legislate against anyone else.

    A fetus is a mass of living cells, but then so is a genital wart.

  • Guest

    You no longer sound like you are trying to understand...you sound like your mind is made.
    az

  • Jayjay30

    What I am saying is as a society we are hypocrites to have laws to protect the vulnerable and defenseless when it's makes us feel good yet for our conveniences we have passed laws to KILL the vulnerable and defenseless .

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Martin-Ellacott/527692586 Martin Ellacott

    Comfort is a fundamentalist Christian......That says it all.

  • Jayjay30

    I suppose you're right because the reasons I am getting are not convincing and even sound like excuses .
    thanks for your input anyway ....xxx

  • robertallen1

    And just which laws are you referring to that are design to protect the vulnerable and defenseless?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/John-Hechtman/765319504 John Hechtman

    Life is seldom easy - and there are hard choices in almost every action. Try this spin, the rights of those already born and alive MUST take precedence over those who are not capable of life outside the body of the woman carrying the potential-for-life.

    Every birth involves risk to a woman's life, is it not then HER right to choose whether to risk death herself, or to kill that which she herself has (with a little help) created? A child which once born, she (and too often, she alone) must support and nourish for 20-odd years - perhaps as long as she lives.

    Her body, her life, her risks. No one else has the right to impose their values on her. No one.

  • robertallen1

    Whether you are convinced or not, abortion is here to stay, legal or illegal.

    Passing and enforcing anti-abortion laws have been as successful as Prohibition.

  • http://www.facebook.com/keithlaughs Keith Cameau

    The State's only tool is Violence. To make a law against violence is to threaten violence to enforce it. Here we have followers of the Prince of Peace advocating violence through the state on a people who do not subscribe to the Christian Ethic. But Christian's don't subscribe to the Christian Ethic. Before I get a rant from a Christian now I'll ask to be forgiven. Thanks

  • Jayjay30

    that will be convenient wouldn't it ..... I suppose I will when I can justify that to my own conscience.
    thanks for the tip.

  • robertallen1

    Try reasoning thus with a Catholic or a fundamentalist. Of course we know the true agenda of the Catholic church, namely to fill the world with little Catholics, no matter how, no matter the consequences.

  • robertallen1

    It goes against my conscience to add another unwanted or misbegotten child to this world. Obviously your conscience functions differently.

  • Jayjay30

    Social Security Act

  • robertallen1

    And just what about the Social Security Act?

    Secondly, as has been pointed out in various posts here, a fetus is biologically little different from a tumor.

  • Guest

    Ask an unwanted adult if he/she would rather be dead...most would say no. Before you go one creating an other fight here, take the time to understand that people have different opinions and for some they only want to add a diffferent perspective in order to understand better. They may not be ready to agree on the spot, but being talked to respectfully has more impact than being belittled.
    az

  • Jayjay30

    I appreciate your input on this sir, as this is a debate not an argument I would like to bring this spin to your attention . Every birth not only involves risks but opportunity too. So by allowing in law for a mother or mother to be; to KILL that what she is carrying, are we not putting this on our conscience too? Why if we are not to impose our values are we compromising our conscience and values by getting involved in passing such a law ?
    I propose that it should not be a law but be an individual choice, but have instead a law that protects the LIFE of one that decides to KILL her own; which I suppose we have already e.g Murder and Assault laws

  • robertallen1

    Anyone who tries to encroach on someone's right of choice deserves to be treated with disrespect.

  • robertallen1

    "Our conscience" is this implying some sort of collective conscience of which you are the arbiter?

  • Guest

    JayJay30, i don't know if you are a woman or a man, sounds like you are 30....The beauty of it all is that YOU have a choice and your choice would obviously be to have that child no matter what your conditions are. I respect that, life ask that you respect each and everyone's choice. Yours is the important one for you.
    I have known many women who have opted for abortion, none have regretted that choice but many have regretted having had intercourse with the man in question, and for others it was the only choice, a choice taken by both "to be parents".
    Also i have known quite a few couple who separated after an abortion, it seems to brake something in the flow or perhaps it was already broken before hand.
    az

  • Jayjay30

    No.I'm implying that by putting an individual choice up for a vote as society we are already infringing on the rights of the minority that will loose the vote .

  • robertallen1

    I can't make heads or tails out of this statement.

  • dewflirt

    So many men arguing back and forth, the rights of the foetus verses the rights of women. So few women here, likely because this is nobody's business but ours. You pro life boys can scream blue murder 'til the cows come home but you won't change a thing and in the meantime we women will do as we have always done, decide for ourselves. Leave the thinking to us, we'll let you know when we need a shelf putting up or something :)

  • robertallen1

    Hi, Dewflirt.

    Nice to hear from you. Of course, it's up to the woman, but trying telling that to a Catholic or fundamentalist.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=748005437 Patrick Jones

    Us Irish have it all figured out ...it's illegal to have an abortion in Ireland ...but you can simply go to the UK. Hence we can feel good about saving babies and women can choose to go to the UK.

    Maybe the US needs to do the same with Canada?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Rick-Kiriakidis/622989020 Rick Kiriakidis

    This is a dumb premise and if anything it made me alot more worried about how history is so poorly taught in our school system, when young people dont know who (I want to use a curse word here) Hitler is, there's a real problem.

    I personally believe there is always a solution more acceptable to abortion, but I am also VERY firmly in opposition of imposing my beliefs on other people so my vote will always go to pro choice.

  • dewflirt

    Hi, seems I'm id**t enough to give it a go though. The Republic of Ireland has anti abortion laws and I dare say they 'work' to a certain extent. Many women travel to England for abortions, where there's a will, there's a way :)

  • robertallen1

    That's so typically and delightfully Irish.

  • dewflirt

    Hey Mr Allen, my reply is being moderated. Seems the Mighty Achems faith in me is misplaced and I am not catching on at all, I forgot to * a word :( Anyway, it was along the lines of Patrick Jones comment. With an English accent though :)

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Rick-Kiriakidis/622989020 Rick Kiriakidis

    Are you against war?
    -Yes
    Then you're against killing people, right?
    -Yes
    What if someone had a gun to your head and you could kill them before they killed you, would you kill them?
    -Yes
    But you just said you're against killing people!

    How to ask loaded questions, by Ray Comfort.

  • robertallen1

    Which comment are you referring to? The only one I can see is the one you posted about 40 minutes ago and that doesn't contain any moderation boilerplate.

  • Jayjay30

    I am saying that by putting up an individual choice up for a vote, as a society we are infringing on that persons right because it shouldn't be for us to get involved.
    If a question is put to the public to make abortion legal or illegal it will not address all the problems that are involved. For example in my case I would vote that abortion be illegal but that's not my full answer because I do not intend on taking the right of a woman from making that choice . If my vote wins then along with making my conscience clear that I have done everything in my power to protect a vulnerable and defenseless life; unfortunately with the same vote I will have also taken freedom of choice from the women.
    That's why I'm saying the issue should not be voted on or made laws on by society, but be left to the individual woman.
    I am definitely not pro-abortion, my conscience is my guide. my logic will have to operate within this principal .

  • dewflirt

    It's not back yet, no matter. It was just to point out that abortion is illegal in Ireland, the women travel here for that. Also illegal in Northern Ireland, don't know why but I assumed it would be legal there. What a pointless law.

  • robertallen1

    I am extremely bothered and angered by the amount of air time garnered by this banana-fixated id*ot. "The Atheist Experience" recently gave him a full half-hour (it's on TDF) and at the same time, limits or curtails those (especially me) desirous of making what seems an intelligent, informed contribution. I guess like most of the shows on which he has appeared, "The Atheist Experience" chose a simple target to make themselves look better.

  • Pysmythe

    I felt similarly, which is one reason I stopped watching it 3 or 4 minutes in. Maybe it is true they had no idea, but that must be a pretty tight pair of iPod headphones and a head pretty far up a Kardashian derriere to remain that unaware by that age, like not knowing that water is wet. Either way, being familiar already with the little rat-faced Ray's flashy techniques of televangelical "logic" and "argument," which are just loosely crafted to strengthen the beliefs of those who already agree with him anyway, seeing this cherry-picking just turned me off immediately. If he really had a decent argument, he would've found himself a good college Ethics professor, wouldn't he? But the man can't be really objective, so he has to stick with intellectual fast food, like a philosophical big mac, and insist that's the best thing for you.

  • robertallen1

    Are you saying that while you believe that while abortion should be illegal, you are basically pro choice?

  • robertallen1

    You're right and you have those damned Catholics to thank for it.

  • Jayjay30

    Yes I am . If a women decides to kill that's on her but she should not use the law that the society has passed to defend her actions and society should not make law on individual choices.

  • robertallen1

    It's all too true. I once met a person who insisted that Hitler was Russian!

    We live in a pandemic, dumbed-down culture--look at the quality (read intelligence) of the entertainment.

    But speaking of entertainment, could you imagine Comfort as a porno star?

  • robertallen1

    Nor should she be criminalized.

  • Jayjay30

    I agree

  • dmxi

    it doesn't wonder me how simple, or maybe perfected,demagogic rhetoric touches the emotions of the confronted,no matter which topic one feels the pleasure of using, without questioning the techniques used!it's an easy trap for the uncritical & easy minded,maybe this film should be used as an educational lecture for those who fell for it,in aftermath!maybe that will be part two:180-the turn around(again!)

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/AGU3UPIWA6NRH3XNHCTQGHNE3M Azaziell

    Only in America...

  • Achems_Razor

    Soooo Sorry!! I had to go somewhere for awhile, yeah and don't forget those ***

  • dewflirt

    No worries Blue :)

  • Pysmythe

    Here's something that may bode well for our future: Precisely as I was reading your post just now, my 8 year-old son was informing me that Copernicium, on the Periodic Table, is named after Copernicus, which was news to me. But I checked him on it, and he was right. He has been keenly interested in the Table lately; something about it appeals strongly to his imagination (he likes to draw it as best as he can from memory, and even likes to make up his own elements and assign them symbols and atomic numbers), and I intend to keep nurturing that.

    Not having TV in this house, at least, appears to be paying off a little bit...although currently he's a lazy reader.

    With that mustache, I could easily imagine Ray as a Seventies-style porn star...but preferably "incapacitated" with a horrid STD and a burlesque saxophone shoved up his rectum.

  • dewflirt

    Hello dmxi, that comment is as pretty as a confetti of flowers. Almost doesn't matter what you're saying, it's just nice to run it through my head :) maybe you should make the next film, 360 - there and back to see how far it was :)

  • robertallen1

    But don't you think he would look great in a condom?

    I have a TV, but I use it only for movies and documentaries. In other words, I control the selection, not someone else.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691855306 Miles Taylor

    The argument goes like this: Hitler murdered Jews. Abortion kills babies. Therefore, abortion is just like the Holocaust. oooooooooook.

  • Pysmythe

    He would probably prefer to have it cut off first!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Nicholas-Panik/665763195 Nicholas Panik

    so many stupid people

  • robertallen1

    Do you mean the condom or something else?

  • Pysmythe

    Something else... But both, if it came down to it.

  • dewflirt

    If he wore it on his head ;)

  • Pysmythe

    Inflate it, and with that mustache dangling underneath he'd look like a jellyfish.

  • robertallen1

    What really angers me is the amount of airtime this Lilliputian manages to garner. "The Atheist Experience" gave him a full half-hour (it's on TDF) while at the same time limiting or curtailing those (including myself) who have far more to contribute. I guess selecting such an easy target allows "The Atheist Experience" and such shows to feel better about themselves.

  • robertallen1

    That's not fair to the condo. Think of all that rubber going to waste.

  • dewflirt

    I was hoping to cover his mouth, more blob fish than jellyfish :)

  • Pysmythe

    Well, I'd say insert a foot in his mouth to lessen the sting, but Ray's already taken care of that himself, lol.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Bob-Trees/1360867133 Bob Trees

    gawd do I even bother with this one? Usually TDF is pretty good on posting up films to watch. I'm wondering if their consecutive hits has finally run amok?

  • CapnCanard

    alans, I agree, but we all know this is one of the hot button issues that just won't go away simply because people with god on their side have no real deep comprehension of those vast unintended consequences. So, figuratively they will gladly and joyfully "destroy the village to save the village".

  • dewflirt

    It's got to be buffergel then, or abstinence, in fact it would be very easy to say no to him :)

  • dewflirt

    Is that a banana in your mouth or are you just pleased to see me? :)

  • Deborah Sillett

    Are you saying only stupid people believe abortion is wrong? Explain to me how it's 'smart' to say woman who get abortions are forward thinking and modern, but if they killed that same child a day after it was born they are suddenly a murderess, locked up and getting death threats.

  • Stargazer_Lily

    ...More than 53 Million???!!! :O What a strange Documentary and arguement, I watched about the first 10 minutes, then skipped a bit to get to the points about Abortion. All I gotta say is interesting comments, really makes me think. However, Seeing that the Heart of a Foetus/Baby beats at just 6 weeks and 6 days (barely 3 Months) @ 14:15 is enough to make me unfavor Abortion, but Imo, if a Mother's life is at risk, then yes, she shouldn't be barred from Abortion.

  • robertallen1

    What if the foetus is a product of rape?

    As has been pointed out in several posts, during the gestation stage, a foetus has much in common with a tumor; both are living, breathing forms.

  • Stargazer_Lily

    Still thinking real hard about it tbh...

  • lakhotason

    Had to look up buffergel.

  • dewflirt

    It might work, just need a 10 foot barge pole to apply it. That's close enough I think :) like your flying saucer :)

  • Guest

    It seems like for many, if the baby has taken a breath of fresh air, he should live on or at least not be terminated.
    I have no strong opinion other than for myself although I have helped change the mind of two young women in my life who were going to have abortions. After we talk they both decided to go with it (different times, they don't know each other). I know the two kids, a boy and a girl...both lovely young people. I have also supported others in their choice of abortion.
    az

  • lakhotason

    Yet how many abortions are done because of rape?

  • lakhotason

    Well, a ten foot pole would kind of break the moment don't you think?

  • Stargazer_Lily

    Good Question! Why didn't I ask myself that?!

  • http://www.facebook.com/garethyoungnl Gareth Young

    what a manipulated lot of nonsense...

  • dewflirt

    It's a fetish thing, like the maypole ;)

  • lakhotason

    To be honest Az, I don't like abortion at all. But then again it is none of my business.

  • lakhotason

    Did you have a Maypole this year?

  • lakhotason

    The flying saucer and Jesus thing is pretty ironic. I believe it encompasses all conspiricy theories. It's a picture of a warehouse door in Tucson, Az.

  • dewflirt

    Just morris dancing this year, we used to maypole in school but it doesn't happen much now. Maybe parents get a bit flustered by the idea of it :)

  • lakhotason

    Had to look up morris dancing too.

  • dewflirt

    Nobody likes abortion, but there are as many reasons for it as there are girls in trouble. I have an idea that what most people find repulsive is the production line feel of the whole thing, in a sense it is. I don't believe many women take this decision lightly, I do believe that most of them think long and hard before going through with it and a lot of women change their minds at the last minute. What worries me more than anything is that the choice is taken away. Any law that tries to limit abortion will become so bogged down in ifs and buts that it will no longer work, women will suffer and children will suffer. Until contraceptives and education are freely and readily available to all women, until the social care system works as it should, until pregnant women are treated fairly and equally at work, until people decide to actually help young mothers etc etc etc, then I will remain firmly pro choice.

  • robertallen1

    That's not the issue and you know it.

  • lakhotason

    I'm troubled.

  • dewflirt

    A fine sight to see, for true manly danger check out cheese rolling. I'm off to bed now, still want Mosquito on Top please :)

  • lakhotason

    You are the one that brought it up. I just asked a question.

  • dewflirt

    By what? Don't be troubled lak I might get sad for you :)

  • Pysmythe

    I'm all for choice, but aren't pregnancies the result of a man's body, as well? In a committed relationship, WHY SHOULDN'T the man have some say in the matter? Odds are, he does, and very few women in such a relationship simply make the choice on their own... So suggesting that it should not concern the man at all completely belittles him, it seems to me. Are we REALLY that unimportant now? So when you ladies suggest that we should just shut up and leave all the decision-making to you, it makes me want to say, for example: Fine, and well! When the wars that have to be fought roll around, and the draft is reinstated, all of us useless men (except for shelves) will leave all of you little girls to run screaming up to the front lines, because we don't like your laws on our bodies... and you can't have our sons, either.

  • Serena Martin

    Since before the dawn of Christianity, the Jews have wreaked holocaust after holocaust on those they consider both their foe and inferiors. I just do not see the necessity of linking every horrible reality of this system to a non-event exonerating a false account of WW11, WW1 and every revolution known in history.

    That said, there are plenty of tribes who practiced infanticide in honour of the same bloodthirsty gods they believed in.

    However, the big problem with abortion is the same big problem everywhere: our births, health, education and very survival is regulated by a third party making money along the way.

    Once you kill the medicine wisdom of the people, you kill the knowledge of procreation and choice. Once you allow a foreign psychopathic agency to control economics and put a value on human life, you will have a devalued human life in a system which will not support it.

    There is no getting away from the fact that abortion is murder. Yet, it is not a crime of the woman, it is a crime of us all and this Society and it's lousy value system.

    As this society is well into its Eugenics Depopulation exercise, we are in grave danger of becoming extinct, whilst all the while being told we are overpopulated. In cities, yes.

    To my mind, it is the lesser of the two cruelties, that, if conception couldn't have been avoided then a termination of life would be preferable to the existence to come.

    It's all very well for the Christian misleaders to harang on about abortion being a holocaust; it's a very profitable business. And it was the Christain faith which kept girls and boys ignorant to the degree that they were clueless about courting, dating, safe sex and if there were consequences, what would be arranged. That would drive the selection and the outcome of courtship.

    These homosexual men who corrupt boys and THEN have the gall to talk about natural relations and childbirth should be laughed out of court, together with their fkbuddy friends in Congress.

  • lakhotason

    It is abortion which troubles me.

  • lakhotason

    Go to Photobucket and download it.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_F3VB6OQ6SK7P234XBW5RG7BQRY harry nutzack

    a "child" is a fully formed viable human, occupying one of the stages of development between "infant", and "adult". glance again at mr comfort's sonogram image. sloped forehead, flat scalp, foreshortened fingers, eyes set in the sides of the head. had nobody informed you that was a human fetus, would you recognise it as such on viewing it? had the shot included more, the image would also have shown gill slits, and a tail. have you ever met a "child" with side mounted eyes, gill slits, and a tail? a flat head? the "heartbeat" is only sympathetic motion due the mothers cardio system being connected to that of the fetus. the image is a cinematic device, used to evoke emotional response from the viewer. at that stage of development, if extracted from the womb, do you think that fetus would be viable? if not, then it is NOT a "child". it is a fetus, which at that stage of development is pretty much indistinguishable from most mammal fetuses, and many lizard/amphibian ones as well. but for the commentary of mr comfort, one could not in truth distinguish whether it was a human fetus, or chimp, or howler monkey, never mind pig, hamster or polar bear, for all we know, that sonogram was from one of the ill fated offspring of ling ling the panda. that is why first trimester abortions are considered in a much different light than latter term ones, as not a single determinate feature that is exclusively human (except for DNA)is recognizable on dissection, let alone sonogram images.the comparison to a tumor is VERY apt, as it is a growth of tissue being exclusively supported by the host organism, with no chance of viability absent that host. by your train of logic, all miscarriages should result in a coroners inquest, as it would be "the untimely death of a child", at least in the eyes of yourself and mr comfort. your position has NO scientific merit, but instead is supported only by emotion. i dont think folks emotional comfort level should be used to impose restrictions on the behavior of others. nor should it be relevant to a debate of availability of medical services. nobody should be forced to reproduce against their will, no matter what objection others have to the idea.

  • robertallen1

    Your first name seems to set your post in relief. Now, could you calm down just long enough to elucidate your position on abortion or is it too much of Jewish conspiracy for you to discuss rationally?

  • Jack1952

    Look up the word "misanthrope". It's a wonderful word.

  • robertallen1

    Don't you mean no merit period? Why confine the matter to science?

  • robertallen1

    And one of Moliére's finest plays.

  • dewflirt

    You really think that's how I think? Now I am sad :( my comment was a reflection of the offhand misogyny and condescension shown by some here. Now you get how it feels. I don't want to belittle men, not anyone, but if some can spit about our wicked ways and wish a woman barefoot and pregnant against her own choosing, then I will wish them D.I.Y.
    Conscription? I don't want you or your son or my man or nephew dragged off to a war they don't want to fight. Not even one they do, but who am I to argue? Did you forget? Pro choice. As for my paws, I don't lay them where they're not invited. Your safe. ;)

  • dewflirt

    It's a troublesome thing, I can't make it right or wrong or even settle somewhere between. But that's the point I think, with so many views and needs and feelings and situations, if there has to be one law to suit all then surely it has to be a law that offers choice. Mistakes happen, some people don't have anything or anyone to fall back on. Fostering is big news here right now. England is short 9,000 foster families, on average a child is taken into care every 25 minutes, some go home within days, others will bounce through five care homes and as many families before they find a place they feel ok. Many never find a family, a lot of them will end up with no education, no work and a spell or two in prison. This is just my little country and these figures do not include children waiting to be adopted. All that is more hurtful than a 15 minute appointment. Sorry you feel so bad lak, honestly don't like to upset people and as I've said before, I'm oddly fond of you lot :)

  • Achems_Razor

    The post you said you wrote three times, two are on, one 6 hours ago and one 3 hours ago. The previous one on my emails, have no idea where it went, cant find it.

  • Pysmythe

    No...I don't really think that, and you're right to take issue with some of the comments here. But it honestly did upset me, because sometimes it seems women may be overlooking how deeply the decision for an abortion can affect a man, too... It's not easy for us, either. And if it seems women may be disregarding that a man is even entitled to any feelings about the matter, well...

    This whole thing brings back to mind my college Ethics class from 27 years ago, when we covered abortion. Things got awfully heated, to say the least. Euthanasia was pretty much a dead subject, by comparison, lol.

  • robertallen1

    Found them. Thank you.

  • robertallen1

    What I'd like to know is who is funding this homunculus.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Xercès-Des-Stèles/100002540053129 Xercès Des Stèles

    to autor: nice try comparing abortion with what hitler's regime did, but it can never compare no matter how hard you try because not all jew and victims of the holocaust were handicaped or rape victim's babies. kinda made me sick to see people turning against abortion so easily.

    abortion = legal, free and case by case decision

  • http://profiles.google.com/monique.aube M A

    These people who '180' are pretty shell shocked, what with all the what would you do in Hitler's regime questions... Attacking impressionable people doesn't count, sir. There is a point where a fetus is just a cluster of cells, and I don't believe that women should be slaves to their reproductive organs. Leave the Holocaust, Jesus and religion out of it!

  • mjnkhr

    God is a sinner himself for "offering" his son Jezus, even worse: you could consider it as post-natal abortion. The arguments in this "documentary" rarely make sense, not to say they're full of crap. This should not be considered a documentary but just plain propaganda. What about the last part about going to hell for just silly lies everyone makes etc... Seriously? Religion hast lost its essence.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Dean-Edgington/1003719946 Dean Edgington

    good point about god offering his son on the alter. it gets even more confusing if u consider god and jesus are one of a three-some. this is far more perverse than any free thinking, free fornicating liberal would ever condone.

  • robertallen1

    Speaking of the trinity, you might be interested in knowing that this concept did not come about until approximately 300 years after "Jesus'" death. Nowhere does it appear as such in the New Testament although various passages hint at it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/John-Sebastian-Barrera/715152941 John-Sebastian Barrera

    [My Critical Review] DONT WASTE YOUR TIME, DONT WATCH THIS CRAP

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_QAXHQTTABZJXAB3JP7A254MT7Y GodmanEnki

    So many so-called apologists will say, "I know the truth" because they have come to an "understanding" of the Bible. "Tom Sawyer said, whether right OR wrong, "Faith....is 'believing' in something you KNOW aint so." What I am saying is, PROVE it to me, WITHOUT the "use" of the "one book" you USE for so-called "infalible-proof!" "INFALLIBLE?" You believe "*" this, and the Mormons (aka "CHRISTIAN - Mormons") believe differently. How does one come to a "conclusion" like that? It "appears to be" to be "ILLOGICAL." Now my JW friend, that I study-the-Bible with, has "answered-to-my-satisfaction" so far every question I have posed. Yet THIS "Christian" believes "otherwise." This JW "man" IS the "son of man" just as was this man called "Jesus of Nazareth" EXISTED 450 + YEARS BEFORE the so-called "town of Nazareth" came-into-BEING! Please explain that, so an old man can get some sleep at night! It is "KNOWN FACTS LIKE THESE, that cause me great stress ! When a Pastor from The "Bible belt" saw my D.M. Murdoc "t-shirt" he asked me, "What do YOU 'believe." I replied, to be 100% honest, after 34+ YEARS of CONTINUAL RESEARCH, "I do not KNOW." "Very interesting" he replied. I am sorry, but after READING "that book," it has supplied me with MORE questions then "answers." Perhaps this yo-yo here, that takes YOUR HARD-EARNED money at 10% and laughs all-the-way-to-the-bank! I have ISSUES with that! etc, etc, etc......Any FOOL with $30 CAN-BE "ordained ministers!" That much, I DO know! Being "ordained" MEANS absolutely NOTHING! It most certainly does NOT "prove" any DIVINITY whatsoever...............So, put ion your 'fancy-robes' and ACT-OUT your own foolish UNKNOWING.....Asta luego you chump!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_QAXHQTTABZJXAB3JP7A254MT7Y GodmanEnki

    Any "Christians" KNOW WHO "Enki" was? OR his brother Enlil? Because, of course, HE or, the coming "Pole-Shift" won't change many Christian's minds, although it is "qualified-by-scientists" as a coming-REALITY! I "pray" THEY ARE incorrect. HOWEVER, THAT DON'T MAKE IT SO........BTW D.M. Murdoc sells a t-shirt< (much like Christians SELL "Christianity 10% at a time!) sells t-shirts that say, "God, Please protect me from your followers." I UNDERSTAND exactly-what-she-means!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_QAXHQTTABZJXAB3JP7A254MT7Y GodmanEnki

    The "Buddha said, when asked by his followers, "Master WHO are you?" He never claimed divinity like the so-called 'Son of Man' did; he SAID, "I AM a man who is awake." Now THAT, I understand. THAT, is my only "claim."

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_5K567ETWVQ23E5PYUARAJGXQVU Itolduso

    Point # 1; Only women should have a voice on the subject for obvious reasons.
    Point # 2; Comfort's analogy makes as much sense as corporations are people and trying the executives of Bain Capital for murder sense they liquidated corporations.
    Point # 3; This film is in the wrong venue. Using shock video, disinformation, twisted argumentative non-objective rhetoric makes this film right wing propaganda, not a documentary.

  • robertallen1

    Point#4: The only people he interviews are those who agree with him, not those who challenge him.

  • Pysmythe

    You're just a little too quick with point one, to my mind. Take the case of a long-term, committed couple (married or otherwise) who have decided together to have a child. They (yes, they) become pregnant, and the woman thereafter changes her mind and decides on an abortion, against her partner's wishes. Do you really believe it is completely fair to ask the man in such a case to simply sit back and shut his yapper while she alone decides the fate of what would be his offspring, too? It is not just her genetic material, it is his, too. It was not just her body, it was also his. She did not become pregnant through an act of God, after all!

    I agree with abortion, that it should be legal and a choice, and I would very much hate to see it outlawed. But in a case such as this one, I very much wonder if there shouldn't be some means of legal recourse, or compensation ( not including simply giving him his sperm back...), for the man. Women do not raise children by themselves (or, if they do, there are men who do, as well), nor do they become pregnant by themselves, and I believe a man, in a case such as this one, should not be looked upon as a mere sperm-donor, with no say whatsoever in the fate of his future child.

  • Chrispy777

    Oh, Hairy, Hairy, Hairy.....your offering of "ontogeny recapitulating phylogeny" is a completely disproven biological hypothesis, and anyone who spouts such stuff is way behind the times. Get with the scientific program, you hack. Now let's talk about "viability," shall we? To remove a maturing fetus from the womb is tantamount to cutting off its blood supply, and therefore its supply of oxygen. A fetus will cease to mature without oxygen, just as I am confident that you, "Hairy Ballsack," will cease to mature, if I should stick your lame ass on the moon, for a few minutes. I don't even think your lame ass matures WITH oxygen. It's LIFE, from the zygote to birth. Respect it....and I'll respect your obvious inclination to NOT live on the moon......you Sorry Nut-Hack.

  • dewflirt

    Sorry to have hurt you Mr P, I fired an arrow in anger and you took the hit, I should have aimed better :) you're right about committed relationships, of course in that situation the wishes and views of both parents should be considered. I wonder how often, on the scale of things, that happens though? See you later :)

  • Irishkev

    Nicely put my friend . I'm raising my son by myself and I'm male . I'd hate it if he wasn't around .

  • wald0

    Wow, people arguing about abortion and religion- who'd guess. I can't comment on th doc. I don't watch anything with Ray Comfort in it, its the bannanna thing- for some reason I can't get it out of my mind when I see him or the boy wonder (Kirk). You would think by now that some of the more sophisticated creationists (is that a oxymoron?) would tell these clowns to sit down and be very quite and still. They do more harm than good for their cause in my opinion, which is good from my point of view but still.

  • Jayjay30

    @harry and everyone who's logic builds up, leads them the conclusion that since a LIFE of a FETUS and it's POTENTIAL of DEVELOPING into a FULLY FORMED VIABLE HUMAN is " indistinguishable whether it is a human fetus, or chimp, or howler monkey, never mind pig, hamster or polar bear or ill fated offspring of ling ling the panda " and on that base of logic go ahead and KILL that human FETUS. I say that is on your conscience.
    If Harry, you agree with me that a Human fetus has a human DNA which seams obvious, why then would you declassify a human fetus and all it's potentials as only a fetus just like that of ling ling the panda?
    If you Harry the "scientist" and the doctors call it miscarriage I do not see the reason why the coroners should get involved because the cause of death of the fetus will be known as natural and not suspicious.

  • wald0

    I don't know- I don't have children. I can't say whether it would upset me or not. I assume it would, from what I hear the parent child bond and all is very strong and instinctual. However, i have also herd and, to some extent, witnessed the fact that fathers don't seem to bond with their children until after they are born while the mother forms strong bonds while carrying. Does this mean she has the right to terminate without his consent, lets think about that. If she doesn't want the child the father is effectively asking her to carry this baby inside of her for nine months and then go through the ordeal of child birth all for him. Now if he doesn't want the child all he needs do is walk away, that simple. To me it seems this difference counts for something but, thats an instinctual reaction. I am not sure what logic or philosophical underpinning I am basing that reaction on. I suppose I am trying to place myself in her shoes, to understand what it would feel like to be expected to go through pregnancy and child birth- to set aside your job and plans- to form a lasting biological bond with someone you may no longer want to be with- all for a child you don't want. It just seems like the situation demands so much more of her than it does the man. In a way that seems as if it should give her more say than him. That said, like I said before I have no children so maybe I shouldn't even have an opinion on this subject. It would seem an uninformed position to start from, thats for sure.

  • Chrispy777

    Wow, Enki.....may I call you Inky? ....as in Inky Blot? You're like a black stain of confusion, that can "honestly" argue circles around yourself. Truly, you have a dizzying intellect. I'm glad to hear that you don't know what to believe, and yet you believe the KNOWN FACT that there was no such town called "Nazareth," until 450+ years AFTER Jesus appeared on the scene. You "strain at a gnat and swallow a camel." The bible is my sole authority. I either have to believe every word of it, or believe none of it. You, as a "clear-minded" middle-of-the-roader, will get bashed from both directions. Faith looks foolish to the unregenerate soul, so all you're truly capable of is mocking what you can't possibly understand. Stop nit-picking, and gaze at the big picture: There IS a Holy God, and you, as one of us poor, helpless sinners, will stand before Him, some day, to be judged. All of your so-called "FACTS" won't serve you one whit, in that moment.

  • Chrispy777

    What's a matter, Sea-bass? Too compelling for you? He interviewed a decent cross-section of society, and got a lot of people to think twice, with many changing their minds, completely,right before our very eyes! Scripted? Hired actors? Clever editing? I'll give you enough credit for knowing better, because you didn't make that charge. He made valid points, was near-flawless in his logic, and got many positive results. The brevity of your "critical review," with CAPS all over, is critical, all right.....in that it needs resuscitating. You speak with all of the conviction and intellect of a 10-year-old redneck racist. You hardly convinced me, with your deep, cogent insights. Perhaps, if you had written more, you would've proven, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that you were a brainless boob. Come on.......give me more evidence.......speak.

  • Chrispy777

    MyJunkHour, lay off the PCP and whatever else you're shooting up, sniffing, popping, drinking, or smoking. If you had actually paid attention to this very worthy documentary, you would've noticed that God is holy, and we're not. He mentioned, not just "silly lies," but fornication, adultery, murder, stealing, idolatry, and blaspheming. The bible says that if you break any ONE commandment, it's as though you broke them all. The penalty for sin is death. Christ died in our place, out of love for his fallen creation. It makes perfect sense that since "God IS love," then He should do whatever is necessary to bring us back into fellowship with Him. The substitutionary atonement of Christ's death on the cross is the perfect answer, stemming from Perfect Love. Believe it....or be wrong.

  • Chrispy777

    "Attacking impressionable people?" Permit me to utilize your initials....My Ass! People, by and large, do not think about the moral, societal, and scientific implications of shredding up a human life and snuffing out the great potential for another Einstein or Robert Frost or Oprah to enter the world, and benefit it....a human life that could've been YOU, My Ass. No....you get the right to live and breathe. If you HAD a heart, you would give it to the unborn murdered, who never got their chance to see a sunrise, merely because some of our inhumane humans deem them to be an inconvenience, or they have fantastic predictive powers to foresee a bleak future for the fetus, and so decide to rip it apart, limb by limb, as though they're dismantling a Lego figure. Put yourself in their womb, and imagine the horror, if you could perceive of what was happening to you...but no....you can't see God in the creation all around you, and you can't see a babe in the womb, so you reason it to be an "IT," with no sense of pain, or self-preservation, or will, or future, because it's a lifeless blob. Well....I think you're a heartless blob.

  • Dan Busted

    KIll hitler if i had the chance ? ... Nah, i would just chop of his right hand

  • Chrispy777

    Yes, it WAS indeed, a nice try, and he succeeded with great success. His analogy was flawless, and you, Desi, have the heart and mind of Hitler, if you can't put it together that a life is a life is a life. Anything that draws blood, oxygen, and nutrients from another source (the mother), and puts it to good use, to grow and mature, IS LIFE! from the zygote on up. Kill it, if you makes you feel good, or helps to clear up your schedule, or if you think a woman deserves the right to kill the separate life within her, or if you think it's just cool to chop up gestating babies....have at it. YAWOHL!

  • Peter Velja?i?

    good point about the abortion and the holocaust. But not about heaven, hell, repention, and jesus bailing us out.
    What jesus did on the cross? Nothing. He wasnt there at all. Jesus = Sun (literally). The sun "ressurrects" on the southern cross constellation after staying still on the horizon for 3 days (like jesus was dead for 3 days). the ressurrection is celebrated on the Easter (spring equinox) because the days grow longer then the nights from then on.
    When you look at is more scientifically you might realize that the UFO phenomenon has more evidence tahn existance of jesus.

    I don't think that anybody is going to hell or heaven. Our energy leaves the body and evolves in higher beings.

    P.S.: and the german guy with blured face who hates jews...he has some point. Hitlers way was killing jews, gypsies,..., but the way of capitalist jews is to financialy enslave the world. They already own America, their corporations, media, army. And they also kill innocent people arround the world but with the different excuse than Hitler (democracy, feedome, bla bla bla bla blaaaaaaa)

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/DAOQZIWLP226UYPOIMTJRU6GXY David

    I love the description they gave us with this video! LOL Hilarious! Death is a part of life and NOTHING can live without killing something! ...Many somethings! If you want to tell a raped woman that she has to keep the unworthy seed of a rapist... Then I tell you about all the cells you destroy in every little tiny action you take! They are alive! Mind your business you lowlife losers! You don't know jack about life and you sure as hell shouldn't be telling people how to live it! This is directed towards all the stupid comments I read here. You idiots make me laugh. Don't even know why I waste my time trying to talk to people who only hear what they want to hear.

  • robertallen1

    In other words, you believe in something which by definition neither you nor anyone else can know anything about and whoever regards this as a foolish crotchet is simply an uncomprehending unregenerate soul. "Faith looks foolish to the unregenerate soul" you say, however wrongly. No, faith looks foolish to any independently thinking intelligent human being which obviously excludes you.

    "There IS a Holy God, and you, as one of us poor, hapless sinners, wills tand before Him, some day to be judged." How do you know this--oh, I forgot 'The Bible is my sole authority." That pretty much sums up the extent of your knowledge and intelligence.

  • robertallen1

    "A decent cross-section of society"--I think you mean a "decent" cross-section of ignorant, guillible uneducated mor*ns like yourself.

    And speaking of mor*onic, what is "near flawless logic" or do you have any idea.

    Even if you had written less, you would still have come off as the cretin you are.

  • robertallen1

    You're living proof of the justification for the hatred directed against religees.

  • Laura Schmitt

    making a biased connection between Holocaust and aborption = manipulation! That is just unfair to manipulate people's opinion based on emotional reactions! How many people did the author interview to get around 5 who change their minds?
    If you want to debate, set the pros and the cons and then explain your opinion but convincing on emotions and showing one way thinking; first this is how dictatorships works, and second, this is of a very low level because you take away the freedom of the person you talk to.

  • robertallen1

    Who, the hell, do you think you are to be telling others what to do? Again, you justify the hatred directed against religees like yourself.

    P.S. How dare you place that ignorant pickaninny in the same league with Einstein.

  • robertallen1

    "Anything that draws blood, oxygen, and nutrients from another source (the mother), and puts it go good use, to grow is LIFE?" This also describes a tumor.

    Like most religees, you know so little about science that you are forced to pass your ignorance off as fact to justify your intrusion into private matters.

  • robertallen1

    Your approach is logical, well-reasoned and educated which means that it goes above the heads of Ray Comfort and Crispy777.

    P.S. I like the way you question Mr. Comfort's concept of random selection in the last two lines of your first paragraph.

  • Achems_Razor

    @Chrispy777:

    Am trying to figure out if you are a troll, someone who likes to attack others with ad hominem, or just one of the "TDF religee NUTTERS"

    Quit running everyone down with your posts on this doc.

  • magarac

    Didn´t watch this since it seems to be a huge waste of time.
    But could´t help but wonder if the comparissing of Hitler and abotions isn´t quite a bit insulting to the about 60 million victims of his doing.

  • AntiTheist666

    Disgusting, despicable, deceitful nonsense.

    I’m appalled. Not just at Ray Comfort, who has already proved himself to be an imbecile but at those people he interviewed. Where were those interviews taken? Were all the intelligent people on holiday when that film was made? Or perhaps he chose not to show them. The conversion of a few light heads to religious pro-life propaganda means nothing. In them we have one Nazi thug and several who didn’t know who Hitler was!

    The Holocaust was a horrendous and shameful event in human history, it needs to be learnt from and the memories of those that suffered need to be respected. It does not need any association with a quackpot snake oil salesman.

    I’m surprised that they didn’t declaim against suicide while they were at it, a usual stance of the religious. Perhaps that’s BananaMan’s next project? Abortion is a sensitive issue that needs much careful consideration and needs to be freely available as a matter of choice. Otherwise it only ends up in backstreet butchers as it has done in the past. As a Father I would say that the ultimate decision lies with the Mother, it’s her body.

    The Crucified One

    Unkeep the faith

  • AntiTheist666

    @Chrispy777

    What’s your problem dude? Why the attitude and insults? Is this an intelligent way of trying to get your point across? I think not. Try presenting your argument in a calm rational manner and you might get somewhere. However the onus is on you to provide proof of the existence of your Dog. If you are that confident in your diseased dogma perhaps you could answer the questions I left at another doc on this site called “Riddles of The Bibble”. I await your answers, though not with bated breath.

    The Crucified One

    Unkeep the faith

  • AntiTheist666

    @Achems

    Hello Mighty One

    I just wanted you to know that I’m delighted to see you still doing such a fine job here. You and several other regular commentators here make this site a joy to visit. I’m not just talking about your wonderful way of exposing religious twaddle. What really impresses me is how you take the time, even if it means repeating yourself, to explain to others your views on cosmological and quantum affairs. I’m sure many are grateful for your explanations of often difficult concepts. Keep up the good work. Best regards.

    The Crucified One

  • Shawn4004

    I'm not sure why anyone has a problem with this guy comparing one kind of killing to another. I understand that people's opinions vary as to when life begins, personally I believe its at conception, but why does that seem to cause so much anger? I also believe that the whopper is infinitely better than the big mac, but I don't think anyone will yell at me about that. I can understand those who believe like I do getting emotional about abortion, but if you don't believe an unborn baby is alive why would it bother you that my opinion differs from yours any more than my opinion of a hamburger? I also don't see this as manipulation. The guy's just trying to get people to see the comparison of 6 million dead Jews and 50 million dead babies (or 50 million terminations of potential life, if you prefer). Even if a baby in the womb is only potential life, how is that ok? That being said, I've known numerous women who have had abortions and I don't judge them at all. I don't agree with their actions but 1) I wasn't there, I didn't see what they were going through, I don't know the situation they were in, and I can honestly say as an imperfect human being I don't know what I would do in their place; and 2) it's not my place to judge anyone.

    This is how I approach this subject with people I know (and I think it's a pretty good system):

    To the pro-choicers, I disagree with your belief but I won't beleaguer you with hate or judgement. In fact, I probably won't even bring it up if you don't.

    To the pro-lifers, I agree with your belief but back off. No fallible human being has the authority to judge someone else based on their beliefs. Be kind to them; even Jesus hung out with hookers and thieves and I seriously doubt he was banging them over the head with his Torah.

  • oompaul

    Points to ponder

    Holocaust and abortion. Eli Wiesel, with reference to killings, said: "Some events do take place but are not true; others are, although they never occurred." Now, which is which?

    Which took place but isn't true, the holocaust or abortion?

    And

    Which is true, through never took place, the holocaust or abortion?

    Mmmmm ....

  • Achems_Razor

    @AntiTheist666:

    Thank you for your kind words, much appreciated!

  • Barry_Joseph

    Wow, hats of to ray, he guilted the minds of impressionable kids who don't even know who hitler is into changing there minds, I noticed he didn't change the minds of any of the elder people he interviewed.

  • robertallen1

    I'll tell you what the problem is. Banana-brain attempts to equate abortion with Naziism which is like the proverbial comparison of apples to oranges--they are both fruit, but the similarity ends there. To make matters worse, as shown in this "documentary," there are those stu*id, unthinking and uneducated enough to buy into this twaddle.

    Did you ever ask yourself how many people banana-brain interviewed before he chose these five?

    I do judge, not those women who've decided to undergo abortions, but those who promote the idea that they shouldn't have any choice in the first place.

  • robertallen1

    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but how many of the elder people that banana-brain interviewed stated that they still believed in individual choice? If I remember correctly, none of them was even asked this question, only the young, ignorant ones.

  • magarac

    Just imagine religion without those stu*id, unthinking and uneducated people.
    Just an adorable little group of people telling each other storys from the good old days when women were made from ribs.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_UOYZ2WM6BTQCJA5UN4WSKZU2YI Plenum

    I've seen enough - 22 minutes worth...

    Idealism is one thing, reality is another... If you get an abortion, do it before you truly think it as a "baby" and avoid your own guilt and the guilt trip others may persuade you to have.
    Back in the 80's I read a statistic that half of all women (in the USA) have an abortion some time in their lives. I was astounded, but that's just recorded statistics - the truth may be higher for the women who travelled overseas and got one there. Japanese have the highest %age of abortions, and while I'm sure many parents agonize over the decision, both in the US and anywhere else, they can always raise and love the child they can be responsible for, and love it that much more.

  • robertallen1

    Like a parent telling her children a fairy tale and making sure that they realize that it is such.

  • Werner Breedt

    This movie turned me around 180 degrees within the alleged number of seconds! I am simply thrilled with the result, not only because my neck feels so much more supple, but also because I missed the remaining 33 minutes of the film.

    I feel it is important for everyone to have the right to express themselves, so long as those expressions do not incite hatred. That being said, it was really a shock to see a worldview so abhorrent. I feel evangelical calls such as this, inciting guilt and renouncing a woman's right to her body, only serve to sustain suffering and abuse of women and children.

    I live in South Africa. We are the Hiv/AIDS capital of the world, as well as having the highest rape statistics. 1 in 3 women are said to be raped each year. If Mr Comfort could visit the clinics these ladies attend, I would certainly watch the sequel to this man's masterpiece.

    Until then, best of luck to all who Mr Comfort comes across...

  • Manu Hashidate

    Feeble, very feeble!

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/FXVJF77TW4SVKB5WIBYR5CILFE JF

    This so called documentary is ridiculously offensive and lacks any kind of intellect and respect for what happened during the holocaust. I don't think you should be able to air this kind of shit, especially not for your own issues with abortion.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/FXVJF77TW4SVKB5WIBYR5CILFE JF

    This so called documentary is ridiculously offensive and lacks any kind of intellect and respect for what happened during the holocaust. I don't think you should be able to air this kind of ****, especially not for your own issues with abortion.

  • Pysmythe

    I'm sure I'm coming at this completely emotionally and don't really have a good logical leg to stand on... It's an incredibly difficult thing for a lot of men to accept, that a decision to terminate the life of their offspring should remain out of their hands, especially in a case where both agreed they wanted to do this. Also, to take a different case, if a man does want the pregnancy terminated, perhaps for very good reasons (he's too young, has little prospects for a good job, etc.), he has no power here, either, and if he decides to walk away, he can still be held financially responsible for the child. Young women have even been known to deliberately trap young men with this technique on occasion, so that they can sit back, jobless, and keep living with their parents, but with the child they wanted, while he pays for it, and then make him run hoops through the legal system just to insure he gets visitation rights, which they would otherwise deny... (I know about this one because it happened to my own stepson, even though his mother and I had more than one talk with him about birth-control, and now he's paying a heavy price for his carelessness...)

    As far as bonding with the child before birth, I can only speak for myself, but I certainly feel that I did. I got nauseated with my wife when she did (not always, but a couple of times, and I never actually puked), and when she finally went into contractions I very definitely felt some abdominal discomfort of my own, but this may have been due more to ensuing panic than anything else. I also seem to remember that for the entire pregnancy, and for a long while afterwards, my sex-drive was WAY down, as if my testosterone levels were on the floor. And when the baby finally began to move around in her, I'd play music for her (the baby) to listen to, with the headphones on my wife's stomach, or I would rub her stomach when the baby was stretching and get the impression the child knew I was there. But I was 30 before I ever had my first child, and this may have had something to do with how receptive I was to the whole experience, who knows?

    Just wanted to say, too, that if you ever do have a child someday, you should witness the birth itself. Hands down, the most intense experience you would ever have in your life! The euphoria, the PURE JOY, the tears, it is truly indescribable, and, if you want it, I hope you get to have it someday. If you weren't bonded with the child by that point, you certainly would be afterwards!

  • Barry_Joseph

    Another good analogy would be the christians who killed far more people than people killed at the holocaust merrily for not believing in their views rather then using christianity as a reason for being pro-life.

  • Renevonn

    I've heard from Alan Watts that a "fool who persists in his folly will become wise."

    Now I'd like to think that is true but in Mr. Comfort's case, I'll make an exception :/

  • Werner Breedt

    @ Brennilthos64

    I'm sorry to hear people can be so rash as to use their children as ammunition.

    I respect your reservations as to a man's lack of autonomy, but how can one balance it out with a woman's right to choice? If I were a woman, the thought of someone imposing their will on my biology would seem an infuriatingly unjust circumstance to experience.

  • robertallen1

    So if you do it, do it carefully.

  • AntiTheist666

    @robertallen1

    Very good advice Dr. Allen.

    But could you tell me, how does opium induce sleep?

    The Crucified One

  • robertallen1

    I'm not a chemist so I wouldn't know.

    But what does this have to do with the topic of abortion?

  • Chrispy777

    That's an easy one, BJ. Jesus said, "By their fruits ye shall know them." The Roman Catholic Church is guilty of what you speak, and much, much, much more. My conclusion is that the RCC is decidedly NOT Christian. Jesus also asked for his followers to "be wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." Killing "unbelievers" would still be employed by the RCC, if they were still in power. As it is, wherever they dominate, the people are poor and ignorant. Again, the fruits.

  • robertallen1

    This is the first half-way intelligent thing you've written. The intelligent part is your analysis of the Catholic Church, the unintelligent part is your discrimination between Christians and non-Christians.

  • AntiTheist666

    I'm sorry my lord but I thought I heard you mention Moliere earlier, but I didn't I didn't mean it in a misanthropic way.

  • Chrispy777

    Your opening question , dude, is the very thing that I've been asking. Most of your kind have been insulting, with attitude, and dismissive of Ray Comfort. The man is trying to support the right of every child to live, and is for all women, everywhere, to have the right of choice NOT to get pregnant, in the first place. Once pregnant, the mother, at least, has the obligation to see that the child is nourished and helped to full-term maturity and health. Anything less is murder and selfishness. Continuing down the path of your choice, this society will one day justify the killing of a child outside of the womb, because it came from the woman, and she should have a right to kill her creation, if she so desires. Or perhaps, we will one day euthanize sick and genetically inferior folk, of all ages, just like Hitler. Nobody wants down-syndrome, or deformed people walking down the street. People will get too darn uncomfortable, and that's just not fair.

    By the way, it's nice to see a young, upstanding young man like you, believing the bible, as evidenced by your use of the "666" in your moniker. I am quite certain that you're on the wrong side, however. You need to turn 180 degrees......seriously, dude.

    By the

  • Chrispy777

    It's a woman's choice NOT to get pregnant. If she should be raped into getting pregnant, you don't kill the child for the rapist's crime. That's pretty clear-cut, unless you're a relativistic m*ron, who can't see that it's a separate life that depends on the mother, exactly like a newborn baby does.

  • Chrispy777

    Disgusting, despicable, deceitful nonsense. Yup, that's how I feel, reading your kind of attitude. Buck for a woman to shirk her responsibility, and kill an innocent child. Problem solved. If you're so concerned about a woman's right to choose to abort, maybe it should start with you, keeping it in your pants, or putting a Zip-Lock Baggie over it. Go ahead....have your cake, and kill it, too.

  • Chrispy777

    Wow, mags.....you didn't watch the video, and yet you can relate to 60 million murder victims, as having been insulted at the implication of aligning their deaths with aborted babies. I'm constantly amazed at the grace of God, as to why He lets His own creations continue to breathe, to allow their hearts to keep pumping, and for that same creation to speak so horribly of life, made in His image.

  • Chrispy777

    I'll quit running everyone down, Hell-Razor, when your type comes to their senses, and stops speaking madness and hatred towards those innocents, who haven't the power to defend themselves. I step up and speak for the speechless, and show power for the powerless. All you do is make a baby, and flippantly say to the woman, "Go ahead....kill it. See if I care. Your body." Troll, indeed.

  • Chrispy777

    True science is based on observation, robert alien, and if you'd like to read my post one more time, you'll notice two words of distinction...."good use.." It's no wonder you think that a tumor has a good use. You still roam society.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/DZNDIUFAU7JJJTMETIT33KRCKE Aaron S

    Best sites to obtain the truth on Hitler, the jews:
    christogenea[dot]org
    mk.christogenea[dot]org
    911missinglinks[dot]com

  • Achems_Razor

    My type?? and what type is that pray tell? You sound like a loony.

    Funny religee's!

  • Chrispy777

    That "ignorant pickaninny" respects and defends life, and is a bigger, smarter, and more worthy member of this society than you'll ever be. I'm not telling people what to do...I'm telling them what NOT TO DO. YOU are telling them what to do. You say "KILL!" I say "KEEP ALIVE." I know you're wrong. One day, you too will turn 180 degrees. Trust me. I'm right. :)

  • Chrispy777

    Manipulating someone into thinking properly about an issue, is the best kind of manipulation. If someone had been duped, or cheated, or fooled, you would expect that at some point, that person would learn the truth, and de-program themselves. Most of those living in this world were not planned.....you might even call them "a mistake," but most are glad they're here. Erring (if it could ever be called that) on the side of life, is NEVER WRONG. Mark it down.

  • AntiTheist666

    @Chrispy777

    Dear Toast

    How kind of you to suggest that I am young (twice) and upstanding. Perhaps you think you’re 111 years older than me? I’ll say this for you, misguided as you are, you have passion. I’ll also add that that you don’t seem stupid either, perhaps there is hope for you yet?

    Supporting that cretin Comfort is beneath you, rise above that dross, find another outlet for that passion of yours, smell the coffee, join the human race, but above all drop god, you're much more than him.

    The Crucified One

  • Pysmythe

    How it might be balanced out, I have no idea. It doesn't appear it can be, because repealing Roe vs. Wade (in the U.S.) certainly wouldn't achieve any such thing. It looks like men who disagree with an abortion are just going to have to keep biting the bullet on this one... I suppose I mostly would just have a lot of sympathy for a man in a circumstance like I described earlier, but, like Dewflirt suggests, a circumstance like that is probably a very, very rare thing, anyway. So, maybe I'm just "playing lawyer" a little bit, and throwing out a hypothetical. But if a man would be imposing his will on a woman's biology by making her carry a child to term, she might also be imposing her's on his by NOT doing so, it seems to me. He does, after all, have something at stake here, having very much to do with his own biology. Because of her biology being what it is, she may be justly allowed the ultimate decision, as I believe is as it should be, but that she would IN FACT be doing so ought to be acknowledged a little more readily than it sometimes is, however much that might muddy up the waters.

    So...test-tube baby production, like we have in the first chapter of Brave New World?
    No, I don't think so...
    This whole subject just really makes my head and my heart ache, to tell you the truth.

  • robertallen1

    "Once pregnant, the mother, at least, has the obligation to see that the child is nourished and helped to full-term maturity and health." Suppose the fetus is a product of rape? Suppose the life of the mother is at stake? Suppose for reasons of her own the woman does not want to bring a child into the world? And above all, who, the hell do you think you are, dictating what women are obligated to do.

    You and banana-brain deserve to be insulted, ridiculed and dismissed for you are lower than despiccable.

  • robertallen1

    Not only do you feel yourself qualified to dictate to women, but believe you have a pipeline to God. What conceit!

  • robertallen1

    And what a shame that you and banana-brain still roam this planet.

  • robertallen1

    Is there some hidden meaning in "prey tell?"

  • Chrispy777

    Rape fetus? Kill the rapist. Mother's life at stake? New life should trump old life, especially since any normal mother would gladly give her life, in order to save her child's. Suppose for reasons of her own, blah, blah, blah......don't make the child, then you won't have to kill the child. Act responsible, Alien.....or is that foreign to your sensibilities? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of murder. If someone sticks a knife in you, unprovoked, who the hell do you think you are, dictating what an attempted murderer feels obligated to do? Same thing, fruit cup.

  • robertallen1

    By telling people what not do to, you are dictating to them and this makes of you a meddling, despiccable piece of sanctimonious refuse.

    "I know you're wrong." No, you're not intelligent enough to know anything of the sort.

    "One day, you too will turn 180 degrees." Do you have a crystal ball as well as a pipeline to god?

    "Trust me. I'm right." I wouldn't trust you with my garbage.

    P.S. She's still no more than just an ignorant pickaninny, only with a following of mo*ons like you.

  • Chrispy777

    "Rose, you don't miss a thing!" Thomas Andrews from "Titanic"

  • robertallen1

    "Most of those living in this world were not planned . . . " How do you know this?

    "Thinking properly?" Assertions don't even come close to thought.

    Erring on the side of logic, reason and knowledge is never wrong, only impossible. Mark it down.

  • robertallen1

    Hitler, Stalin and Attila the Hun had passion. And please don't forget about the Catholic Church--how much more passionate can you get than the Inquisition and the witch burnings?

  • Chrispy777

    I know you're sincere, Alien....just sincerely wrong. It's been nice dueling with you, sir. You know where I stand. As John Lennon never sang, "Give life a chance."

  • robertallen1

    Kill the rapist is not the point. Why should the victim of a rape be forced to undergo the ordeal of childbirth against her will? Just because you say so? As a matter of fact, it is foreign to my sensibilities to force a woman to undergo childbirth against her will and bring an unwanted whelp into this world in any circumstance.

    By further dictating that in life-threatening childbirths, the life of the fetus must supersede that of the mother, you exhibit the sensibilities of a troglodyte--and don't try to snow me with specious comparisons a la banana-brain.

    It says something for our times that disgusting cretins such as yourself and banana-brain have no control over matters of individual choice and are not likely to.

  • robertallen1

    It's been disgusting dueling with a sanctimonious know-nothing like you.

  • Chrispy777

    It's interesting....you never address the issue of extinguishing life. We'll never see eye to eye, Alien, because I have the high ground. I look down on pompous, insensitive, clods like you, who are obviously too smart for their own good. Enjoy your righteous indignation, until you take your last breath........and then.....

  • over the edge

    @Chrispy777
    when you are done talking all around the subject, could you please concentrate on the core issue of when life begins. the bible says in genesis 2:7, He “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man became a living being”. the laws mostly state life begins weeks to months after conception. science tends to agree with the laws. so where do you get your info from? please show me actual proof to back up your claims? also don't state that we should err on the side of caution on this point. that reasoning will lead to proposing to arrest 14 year old boys who take long showers of mass murder

  • robertallen1

    First of all, you need to read up on the biology of fetuses, especially in the early stages of pregnancy, not that you will, for you'd rather wallow in your ignorance. And yes, there are instances when the extinguishing of life is justified.

    Women are going to have abortions whether you, banana-brain or anyone else looks down upon them or not and this redounds to their credit. You are obviously too dim-witted for your own good and anyone else's.

  • Karl van Oldenborgh

    If I take a drug, then rape a woman, then become lucid, I would not want my rape victim to give birth to our child. And if she does chose to keep it, then that's her choice. I'm sure plenty of women are victims of rape from their husband/spouse within a relationship.

    It should be the mother's right to keep or abort.

    Should a government ever be allowed to tell a mother to abort or give birth?
    Should a government ever be allowed to tell me not to end my life?

  • magarac

    I was born way after hitler died so personnaly i have no experience of that time. I do however have relatives and know other people who very much suffered because of him. And then i even have been part of an abortion. And so you see i can campare my personal feelings regarding abortion to what i heard from the second world war.

    That whole abortion thing is by no means something i would ever take lightly even thou i am just a guy. But slaugtering millions of people with theyre lifes, dreams and people who care about them is and will always be worse.

    And since you religious people seem to love human life that much, how is it possible to have started countless wars in the name of jesus and the other guys?

  • wt1776

    I am not religious, and remain pro-choice. However I do see both sides of the issue, and understand the passion of both views. A woman should have control over her body. However I think comparing a fetus to a tumor is silly. If you destroy an eagle egg you can be charged with a crime, and that must tell us something about biology. The issue is not simple or straightforward to me, but given all the information I must remain pro-choice.

  • Chrispy777

    Gaining land, possessions, and people's souls, has always been the aim of the Vatican. They have the motive and resources to commit murder, and seek world domination, in the name of Jesus. They are corrupted and a corrupting influence. Don't paint all Christians with the same brush. Religion is most certainly responsible for many, if not ALL wars, and therefore I do not label myself as "religious." I abhor the term.

  • dewflirt

    Have some statistics, all available online :)
    7 million single parent families in the UK, 1.6% of which are single fathers. 47% of these families live BELOW the poverty level.
    £4billion is owed in maintenance by absent parents.
    A working single parent using the child support agency to claim maintenance must pay £100 for the service and the CSA then takes 7 -12% of any payments.
    Unemployed single parents receiving maintenance payments through the CSA will have any payments deducted from their benefits.
    Living below the poverty threshold = substandard housing in areas where crime, alcohol and drug abuse are prevalent, missed meals, malnutrition, children are more likely to die in accidents, are twice as likely to suffer longstanding illnesses, have a lower birth weight, be shorter, have poor school attendance. In adulthood they are more likely to turn to drug and alcohol abuse, turn to crime, be unemployed and become involved in abusive relationships. They are also more likely to end up in the care system, as are their own children.
    And just so you can feel a little bit better, 77% of all abortions carried out in England and Wales last year took place before 10 weeks.
    So I would argue that girls do not have babies so they can sit on their backsides and live the good life on benefits and maintenance payments, nor do they have babies so that they can get a council house, there are few left seeing as a string of governments decided to sell them off at a pittance and have failed to replace them.
    Abortion and pregnancy amongst young teens has fallen, education and an increased uptake of contraception is working. It's now girls between 20 and 24 that use the service most, and women in relationships, so guys, don't feel left out, you must be in on these decisions too. Make sure you discuss your contraceptive options with your doctors. Condoms are not the only fruit, it's not all up to the ladies in your lives ;) More sex, more chance of becoming pregnant!
    As the saying goes, it takes a community to raise a child. If you really want to reduce the need for abortion, put yourself out a bit. Offer your help and support, whether that's a bit of babysitting or inviting people round for dinner when you know they're skint and the cupboards are empty. There's nothing tougher than doing it all alone :)
    Edit- would like to add that 16% of abortions were carried out on married women, most of whom did so between 11 and 17 weeks. Must be more difficult to make the decision if it has to be shared.

  • Barry_Joseph

    ah ah ah not so easy, it is if you're going to side step it on to catholics as ye always do i'm talking about christianity as a single entity meaning follower of christ not a specific branch off for political gain. The two books of Christianity old and new testaments clearly support violence and killing of people "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword" and history clearly shows CHRISTIANITY as a violent religion not just RCC here is a list of things the book you're quoting from supports: the crusades, the multiple blessings of wars, warrior popes, support for capital punishment, corporal punishment under the guise of 'spare the rod and spoil the child,' justifications of slavery, world-wide colonialism in the name of conversion to Christianity, the systemic violence of women subjected to men and rape. I think you need to research your own religion a bit more and not only from a christian point of view.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/JN27DM3SMEM5AJKACHCKMBRBL4 Coda

    Who cares what Ray Comfort, or Chrispy777, have to say. They both appear to be attention whores...why feed them?

  • docfeind

    Great fear mongering and terror tactics. This is just substance substituted for music. This must be the most common tool of the Cristian church. What a joke of a doco there are so many flaws in his argument the way he interviews and edits.. what an idiot. OMG modern day holocaust right under my nose!! (That explains the 6 billion people in the world) i think what ive got out of this is the parallels between Hitlers regime and the church. ones just a compressed version of the other false god, world domination plans, mass murder, i think its needless to continue you get my direction.

  • TERRY SHor

    David says in the Psalms that we are fearfully and wonderfully made ; God also tells Jeremiah 1:5 , Before l formed thee in the belly l knew thee ; and before thou camest forth out of the womb l sanctified thee ,,,,,, so l think if you believe the Bible ? which l do ! then whoever takes contraception and kills the eggs in the womb is a murderer ????????

  • robertallen1

    That is if you're stupid enough to believe in the Bible.

  • Achems_Razor

    @robertallen1:

    ("pray tell")...Not hidden meaning, an inflection of speech. (idiomatic usually sarcastic) Except I made an error and said prey instead of pray.

    Expressing incredulity,...(please explain your doubtful position) used ironically to emphasize the unacceptability of something when highlighting a logical fallacy.

  • dewflirt

    Should be pray, not prey as in thing being hunted :)

  • Achems_Razor

    You are right! I stand corrected, my first mistake of the year! As everyone probably knows by my poor grammar, English is not my first language.

  • dewflirt

    Not bad Blue, and only one letter wrong, you're still 99.9% right :)

  • robertallen1

    I didn't know that. What is your first language?

  • Guest

    In arguments people like to make things cut and dry, i am for this/i am against that, but things are never just one sided. I too see the silliness of the tumor argument, sound like a way to add kindling to a hot fire (in the discussion).
    Have a tumor and see if you get attached to it.
    az

  • robertallen1

    This makes sense. "Prey tell" doesn't.

  • Guest

    Although many prey god while they pray.
    az

  • Achems_Razor

    You mean you have forgot? have already told you before. lol

    But we cannot go off topic, sorry.

  • robertallen1

    Yes, it is simple and straightforward. There are no two sides. One group is simply trying to stick its collective nose in where it doesn't belong.

    P.S. If you destroy a chicken egg, you wouldn't be.

  • robertallen1

    I apologize for the oversignt. I believe you once did. Is it German? Now don't be cagey, am I right?

  • Guest

    Borcht, perogies, cabbage rolls....i see the world through food these days!
    az

  • Guest

    According to you, a lot of people on TDF were once stupid, even some of our smartest ones.
    az

  • robertallen1

    Those who use the Bible as their sole source of ethics and morality are basically stupid and ignorant.

  • SuperPhoenix

    I thought it is about abortion documentary

  • dewflirt

    That must be why he's so shy, if we ignore him he might come and dribble on us, likes cows do ;)

  • Guest

    What about those who study every word of it in order to deny it's meaning....what a waste of time in my opinion.
    az

  • Guest

    .....

  • Guest

    Abortion is a religious and legal subject, seems like it always was, even a culinary one.

    "Aristotle considered the embryo to gain a human soul at 40 days if male and 90 days if female; before that, it had vegetable and animal souls."
    Funny how in his opinion, a female who was a carrier was a human 50 days later than a male. Oh Ya, he was a man!

    "An 8th century Sanskrit text instructs women wishing to induce an abortion to sit over a pot of steam or stewed onions."
    az

  • Guest

    @Robertallen1
    What if that choice is spiritual?
    az

  • robertallen1

    You obviously need more study.

  • robertallen1

    This time you've actually nailed it, for we all know when religion sticks its sanctimonious nose into anything.

  • Guest

    What if that choice is spiritual?
    az

  • robertallen1

    A person has as much right to make such a choice as I have to disrespect him for making it.

  • Pysmythe

    I wasn't suggesting that young girls having babies for payments (and a child they wanted, while wanting the father...not so much) is an epidemic, but I can tell you for a fact that it does happen. My stepson is 3 years older and wiser now, married to another woman, and with a child by her on the way right now. But he works and has NEVER missed a child-support payment to the girl who told him to his face that she only ever wanted the baby anyway... And he was with her for nearly a year after the child was born, but these are the kinds of things she would constantly tell him, so... (And she apparently does want to sit on her backside; she had a job up the road at a retail outlet for about a month.)

    Women ( and ESPECIALLY young girls) are not saints, any more than men are, and they are not always victims, either (her family lives in a nice neighborhood), and sometimes they do have motives... which is exactly one very big reason his mother and I tried very hard to talk with him seriously about birth-control, but he had to just run with his rod, anyway, like an awful lot of young men, and look at where he's at now, paying $350 a month that would've been better spent on his own family.

    It's all his fault, I know that, for not using birth-control, or simply abstaining, and I do not feel sorry for him, but that he was "set up" by this girl I think would be pretty clear to you if you knew her like we do.

    Not trying to be contentious with you, Dew, you know I like you very much. But every circumstance is different.

  • Guest

    Every day i learn many things by choosing what's important for me and my surrounding. The bible would bring nothing in my life that isn't there already, at least nothing of additional value over other things.
    az

  • Chrispy777

    I've research much that's been done "in the name of Christianity." My point is that I won't argue that religion is responsible for much, if not all, of the war and violence in all of human history. Cain killed Abel because Abel's "religion" was approved of God, and Cain's was not. That made Cain very angry, and the first murder took place.....thus has it ever been. It's a misnomer that all Catholics are "Christians," especially when you're talking about acts committed in large numbers, such as the Crusades, or the Inquisition. If you've ever read the New Testament, you would find a message of peace, love, and contentment. You lifting the words of Jesus out of context doesn't sit well with me. If you believe that He told all of His followers to take a sword and go out and kill those who refuse to repent or convert to Christianity, then you're being willingly ignorant. Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, "Put up, again, thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Jesus always spoke of swords as an instrument of defense, not as an offensive weapon. He came to save men's lives, not destroy them. Measure what's being done in the name of Christ, and if it doesn't square with scripture, then don't blame Christianity. Blame fallen men (of which we all are), with wicked hearts. Christ has no part of such things. Satan is alive and well. How come no one blames him for the evil that goes on, in this world? His name, in Greek, is "Apollyon," which means "Destroyer." War and killing and subjugating, is his bag.

  • dewflirt

    Ha ha! I love it when you're shirty ;)
    Mr P, I was not in any way aiming that post at you and your boy, as you said, sh*t happens. I'm in no position to judge anyone, least of all a couple of youngsters bent on discovering 'things' for themselves. Nor would I blame the parents, you can lead a horse to water....
    I just thought that in amongst the emotion and opinion there was room to squeeze a few little facts, maybe take the heat off the ladies a bit. Looks like their outnumbered 15 - 1 in this discussion, maybe I'm being gobby enough for about 20? Don't need to explain yourself P, your just sticking up for your boy, I like that! You'd have to try harder than that to make me fall out with you :)

  • Achems_Razor

    All your Satan's, demon's, and everything that is vile is strictly in your mind, as is all your Gods. Not real, show me and others a living breathing deity.

    And no ifs and no buts your man made bibles are horror books plain and simple, so no apologetics allowed.

  • dewflirt

    That sword thing, not sure that would wash in court, not where I live anyway :)

  • Chrispy777

    Okay, Hell-Razor, you win......for now.

  • robertallen1

    Do you literally believe that the story of Cain and Abel took place or that "Jesus" said all the things attributed to him? If so, you're an ignoramus and a fool.

    Have you ever studied the history of the Bible and the formation of the various doctrines? If so, who do you think you are to tell people what is Christian and what isn't? But again this goes back to your dictating that abortion is wrong. You really must think a lot of your self.

  • robertallen1

    No, forever.

  • Chrispy777

    It's a free country, Alien, but you seem to haunt me like those garlic knots at the Olive Garden. Check, please!

  • joe johnson

    Dumb doc, I left wondering what this guy was trying to say. I was surprised how many kids didn't know who Hitler was, don't they watch the history channel? Funny thing about Hitler, we will see another one soon in the future

  • Manu Hashidate

    Meanwhile... back at the topic... this documentary is absolute shyte! I doubt very much that Ray Comfort even has a passport, or has ever been pregnant!

  • robertallen1

    I take this to mean that you either don't have answers or you're embarassed by the ones you think you have.

  • robertallen1

    Or has ever gone through the process of thinking.

  • Chrispy777

    Take it the way you usually do, Alien. Wrong.

  • robertallen1

    Then provide me with an intelligent response.

  • http://twitter.com/crumness Jessie Wyatt

    Cringe. This guy breaks about every logical fallacy known to man. Like questioning a bunch of idiots about who Adolf Hitler is. What educated person doesn't know who he is. He is deceiving people. Despicable.

  • Pysmythe

    Lol. As rash as that boy has been known to be, he would NEED a lot of sticking up for!

    For what it's worth, here, in a nutshell, is what I think about abortion:

    I believe that women should have the choice, but I also believe the system is imperfect, albeit much better than the alternatives. Women do (as of yet!) the majority of the child-rearing, and the whole process, from conception to graduation, obviously takes a much greater toll (not just physically, but mentally, as well) on them than men, generally speaking. What bothers me is the precise language people sometimes use in describing this right to choice (not you, I mean, but elsewhere in these comments), which would suggest that a man has no right to say anything about the subject, because he has no vested interest in it, which obviously does not make any logical sense whatsoever. What's more, we are not, in fact, talking about tumors here, which, if left to natural devices, would be as likely as not to grow and consume their hosts. However the egg has to be incubated, clearly it would not have gotten there without a rooster. We are talking about a process that, left to its natural courses, will use half of a man's genetic material in the formation of a separate human life. The product is therefore still a part of his body, even if it cannot be brought to bear INSIDE his body. So what the system has done is weighed a doubt against a certainty, and justly given the woman the preponderance of power in determining what happens with her body. But that a man may be seriously injured by her choice, and that he even has a RIGHT to be, is sometimes not acknowledged at all by those who don't think deeply enough about this issue. The system says that, all things considered, it is better for a woman to have the choice, even though another party may be adversely affected by that choice. So when the more militant scream "Get your laws off of my body," I get, I feel justifiably, a little annoyed, because it is not only their body that the law sees fit to aid in the governance of.

  • brandyv88

    Women should have the rite to chose.The world is over populated enough, at least if people have the choice there will be less un-wanted an un-taken care of children living in poverty,some women have a hard enough time getting buy now a days.The last thing some of us want is a child we cant afoid to have an take care of.When i decide to have a kid it'll be when im ready an want it.

  • robertallen1

    Right you are, but you need very much to improve your English composition.

  • robertallen1

    Right you are, but please do something to improve your spelling.

  • Guest

    Wouldn't the composition of your phrase be right, if you wrote:

    Right you are, but you (very much) need to improve your English composition.
    Very much??? how about greatly, highly.
    az

  • Werner Breedt

    I cannot agree more with your summation. It's a sad difficult issue.

    On a side note, I have read on more than one occasion that contraception should be considered one of humanity's greatest inventions, since the current size of the world's population, as well as the risk of viral infections would serve to undermine any stability for a modern civilization.

  • Guest

    What i get from your comments is that there are a lot of women out there who would love to have a father who cares as much as you seem to about their pregnancy and the kids that follows but unfortunately often times, those are the guys that get hurt by the loss.
    az

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ES5YFURR5VOTKTGHD4PIVYXPVI John

    Another piece of ridiculous nonsense from the christian 'wrong.' No evidence, no facts, just emotional hype -- as usual. In a perfect world these fascists nutjobs would be in psychiatric hospitals where they belong. But... this is America. In this country, if you say and do crazy insane things and don't invoke the name of God or Jesus, then you are crazy and get sent to the nuthouse. But if you say and do exactly the same crazy things while invoking God/Jesus, then you are just being religious, and we are supposed to "respect " that. I've traveled a great deal and you rarely see this in other countries. But it's perfectly normal in the U.S.

  • Chrispy777

    A fruitless endeavor. You'd never recognize it, as such.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ES5YFURR5VOTKTGHD4PIVYXPVI John

    A single human ovum and a single spermatozoon are both so infinitesimally tiny that you practically need a microscope to see them. It is the height of ignorance to even imagine that removing this tiny, tiny, tiny, clump of cells is "murdering" a "person". There is no sane, intelligent, reasonable, fact based argument against early term abortions. If you take a shower everyday, then you "murder" more LIVING cells than an early term abortion. Late term abortions are a different story. Late term abortions should only be allowed if carrying the baby to term will jeopardize the health or life of the mother, and perhaps if it is determined that the fetus is severely deformed. But, of course, the christian 'wrong' don't care about facts, evidence, or reason. They only want to force their narrow religious beliefs on everyone. There was a period when Christianity ruled the world -- it's known as The Dark Ages.

  • robertallen1

    Well put.

  • robertallen1

    So far, you haven't posted anything amounting to intelligence and knowledge and your only response has been dogma. Therefore, I assume that you lack the ability to respond; however, lest my assumption be incorrect, I will reiterate my questions.

    1. Do you literally believe that the story of Cain and Abel took place?

    2. Do you believe that "Jesus" literally said all the things attributed to him in the New Testament?

    3. Have you ever studied the history of your beloved bible or the formation of the various doctrines (read creeds)?

    Not that I expect anything approaching a relevant answer.

  • dewflirt

    I can think of a million things to say on this subject but I'd end up sounding like a raving feminist. Maybe that in itself says enough, you're a smart man and you don't need me to tell you. I'm really bad at feminism anyway, I like to have doors opened for me ;) I think historically, birth control has been our territory. You'd be amazed how many men assume that a woman is on the pill, like women get pregnant so it's up to them to prevent it too. Probably just goes a bit against the cultural grain, you lads getting involved in the right way ;)
    JOKE !!!! FAYNIGHTS !!!! :)

  • robertallen1

    Or perhaps it is determined that the fetus will be still-born. By the way, what exactly do you mean by late-term abortions? Also, by health are you referring to both physical and mental?

    It's amazing how the Christian apologists rationalize the history of forcing of their narrow religious beliefs down people's throats by terming those who did so not real Christians. Yet, if given half a chance, all too many contemporary Christians would gladly follow in the footsteps of their ancestors--especially Catholics.

  • Pysmythe

    Or the girls that get hurt by a loss...and have to make a difficult decision on their own...
    Her genetic-information, her choice, because it's her body.
    Our genetic-information, her choice, because it's her body.
    I tolerate abortion because it's the better choice... Sometimes men just have to bite it for that reason...

  • Pysmythe

    Yep, playing dice with the Plague, and fast running out of room and natural resources...

    Contraception could be, in essence, a moot invention in 100 years, or less.

  • robertallen1

    Most feminists are bad at feminism as well, so keep up the good work. I love to open doors for women like you and the few times I take a woman out, I pull out the chair for her--and if this makes me a male chauvinist, sexist pig, I'm proud of it. Standard English dictates "Everyone has HIS book" and if some feminist with an acute penis complex doesn't like it, she can employ a different construction without trying to force a so-called politically correct change on the language--in this case, the plural is one way out.

    Anyone who preaches equality of the sexes is as ignorant as the most rabid fundamentalist Christian.

  • dewflirt

    I want equality, I want the differences as well though. I love my girls equally but differently because they are not the same. But please Mr Allen, don't stop pulling out chairs :)
    One of your funnier posts, still smiling now!

  • lakhotason

    Well please explain to me why men and women are unequal.

  • Pysmythe

    *Snaps head* Looking up "faynights" right now...
    (You beat all, you know that? lol.)

    edit- Ah, I think I get it now! And if I do... you're right. :)

    edit/edit- No, I don't think I did get it the first time... But you're still right, lol.

    edit/edit/edit- No penalty here, either, I hope?

    edit/edit/edit/edit- Bwahahahaha!

  • AntiTheist666

    @Chrispy777

    Dear Toast

    Do you remember this? “have at it. YAWOHL!”
    Did you really mean it? Not only have you ignored my challenge but you have failed to respond to my last reply to you. Perhaps you only issue EMPTY challenges

    Do you remember this?

    “Cain killed Abel because Abel's "religion" was approved of God, and Cain's was not. That made Cain very angry, and the first murder took place”

    Are you sure about that? I think you’re mistaken. Cain and Abel worshipped the same god, their religion was the same. Cain killed Abel because God showed a great sign of pleasure for Abel’s sacrifice and nothing for Cain’s. He killed him out of jealousy. Don’t take my word it. There is a whole episode dedicated to Cain and Abel on a doc here at TDF called “Riddles of the Bible”

    Who is right here? It couldn’t possibly be the Anti-theist over the christian could it?

    The Crucified One

  • robertallen1

    for one thing, one responds differently to a policeman than to a policewoman.

  • lakhotason

    That's it? How would one respond differently to a 9mm fired by a woman officer than one fired by a man officer? Weak RobertAllen. Really weak.

  • lakhotason

    I would respond the same to an officer regardless of sex. To me it is someone with the force of the law behind her office. I see no difference.

  • robertallen1

    That's not what I'm saying. When dealing with an officer, most people respond differently to a policeman as opposed to a policewoman, the same thing in an office setting and most everything else--and there's nothing that can be done about it.

  • robertallen1

    I doubt that very much.

  • lakhotason

    But how does that make the policewoman unequal?

  • robertallen1

    Theoretically she's supposed to be just a good as her male counterparts, but the reality is different, especially if an arrest is being made.

  • lakhotason

    You aren't in a position to doubt what I said. That's ridiculous.

  • lakhotason

    Do you mean to say it is a matter of physical strength?

  • robertallen1

    In some cases, it is. Compare male tennis players with their female counterparts. In co-ed matches, most male players can slaughter them for the most part because a man's strength lies in his shoulders while a woman's lies in her hips.

  • robertallen1

    I certainly, for in all probability, we've been conditioned in the same way.

  • lakhotason

    Maybe we haven't been conditioned the same. I think we are more or less contemporaries. Wonder how and where we diverged?

  • robertallen1

    I can't say anything about the age difference, but it seems that we come from quite similar cultures and therefore have been conditioned, however subliminally, in pretty much the same way.

    Do you generally open the door for a woman or pull a chair out for her? Would you do the same for a man? Assuming you're heterosexual, would you be embarassed holding hands with a man in public, how about a woman? Does the same thing apply to kissing? You haven't yet answered my question about tennis players. Also, why hasn't co-educational football caught on or co-educational wrestling? Why are male porno stars treated and regarded differently from their female counterparts or to put it bluntly, why do the females general make more? Why is it that females having sex with minors is looked on differently than males having sex with them? And speaking of sex, why does the general attitude between homosexuality and lesbianism vary so greatly?

    You just can't get around it, men and women are not equal and probably never will be and it says a lot for Dewflirt that she blatantly admits liking it.

  • Barry_Joseph

    I was raised a catholic and have read the new testament numerous times and I have not found any message of piece and love. I have not lifted the words of Jesus out of context thats what's written in your book I just quoted it. What doesn't sit well with me is someone taking what is written in a 2000 year old book from an unknown author and trying to use it as fact. My original point was I could make the same documentary using Christianity as the same guilt trip as the holocaust which is still true you haven't proven other wise and quoting rubbish from your story book isn't going to change that. You have the cheek to call me ignorant when you think it's ok to use Christianity as a catalyst for pro life on such a sensitive subject. As for the devil, ha ha you tell me what thats about maybe your god shouldn't have invented him? or maybe the devil has the same powers as your god? or maybe it's all rubbish?

  • lakhotason

    I open a door or pull out a chair for two reasons. One, I'm Southern, two, it is elegant. I like elegence and I like manners. Doesn't mean I'm more than equal. And equal is such a subjective word.

  • robertallen1

    It probably all is and considering the history of the Catholic Church and other religions, organized or not, probability transforms into certainty.

  • robertallen1

    My question is would you consider it elegant and good-mannered to do this for a man?

  • lakhotason

    Are you asking do I treat women and men differently? Of course I do. Differently dosen't mean I regard sex to be a measure of equality. But be very sure that I know the difference.

  • lakhotason

    Good manners are universal.

  • robertallen1

    Therefore if you, like most people, treat them differently, you cannot possibly regard them as equal. So welcome to the club.

  • robertallen1

    By good manners, do you mean western forms of etiquette or etiquette in general. Even if you mean the latter, I'm not altogether certain.

  • lakhotason

    Don't confuse manners with etiquette.

    I still do not understand why differently has anything to do with inequality. You seem to want that stipulated. I would rather you explained why different is unequal.

  • robertallen1

    To me, good manners = etiquette.

    By definition, different implies inequality.

  • lakhotason

    Different does not imply inequality. Does not 7 + 1, an equation different from 6 + 2, equal only eight as the second equation .

  • robertallen1

    I look at it this way: 7+1=6+2. So both are equal as one can be substituted for the other.

  • lakhotason

    Still please explain why it implies. You keep saying this again and again in one form or another. Tell me why it implies inequality.

  • lakhotason

    Exactly.

  • robertallen1

    However, try substituting men for women or vice versa and you might run into a few problems.

  • lakhotason

    Where would I run into a problem? Do you not think a woman is just as representative of Homo Sapien as a male?

    And I ask you once again why it implies inequality.

  • robertallen1

    Continuing with mathematics, 3.14.......... is close to, but not equal to pi in the same way that women are close to but not quite equal to men.

    You've admitted that women are different from men; you seem to agree that in general men react differently to them as opposed to other men and I believe you've accepted my examples from the troglodyte world of sports. So to put it mathematically, woman ? man as opposed to 7+1=6+2.

  • robertallen1

    As representative as a peacock and a peahen to their species. So what, you can't substitute one for the other and hence they are unequal.

  • lakhotason

    I admit difference but you will not explain why difference means unequal. You seem to want that to be a given but I wish to hear why a man and woman are unequal simply because they are different.

  • lakhotason

    Wrong analogy.

  • robertallen1

    I'm sorry, but I really can't explain it any differently that I have. If you can't substitute A for B and vice versa, A and B are not equal and therefore must be different.

  • robertallen1

    In which way? Both are as representative of their species as women and men are representative of theirs.

  • lakhotason

    Who says you cannot substitute A for B. Once again you are making a statement you want me to stipulate. Why cannot A be substituted for B. Explain.

  • Chrispy777

    Once again, John, the Roman Catholic Church is not Christian, by any standard....biblically, historically, or present-day society. Using your argument against you; think of a pilot in a military bomber, at an altitude of 40,000 feet. From his perspective, we're nothing but a tiny, tiny, tiny, clump of cells. He could drop a bomb on us, not seeing, and perhaps not caring, at the destruction of those "tiny clumps of cells," below him. "Yeah, but I'm alive!" you would cry out....... exactly. That "insignificant" clump of cells is life, and there's hard science behind that statement. Now, I just gave you a sane, intelligent, reasonable, fact-based argument against the disposing of life, however humble. Will you agree with me? I won't hold my breath, because then you would have to admit that you were wrong, and your pride would never allow that. I can also expect that robertalien will read this, and have some demeaning comments of his own.....also one who is overly proud of his intellect, and unfailing logic. Oh, well....."and the beat goes on"...........until he/she is aborted.

  • dewflirt

    You probably have a different Faynights. Remember all those years ago playing tig in the playground and you needed a break, you'd cross your fingers and call the truce word? We also used to use pax and squabs. Don't know if it's true but I was told when little that Faynights was a curse to ward off the Templars, which is why you cross your fingers too, sign of the cross. Heard it the other way as well, that it is to use the protection offered by them and the cross is theirs. Check out wiki - truce words :)

  • Chrispy777

    LOL! You are one, funny, dude! Someone makes the stunningly ridiculous example of "murdering" more live cells by taking a shower, than by aborting a tiny clump of fetal cells, and you say, "Well put." And you dare to claim that you're guided by logic and reason!! I'd keep laughing, if the subject matter wasn't so serious, but people like you just prove the bible to be true, again and again. Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

  • Chrispy777

    1. Absolutely
    2. Absolutely
    3. Absolutely
    Now, let me read your mind; you've asked questions 1, 2, and 3 so you can bowl me over with how educated you are, with the knowledge that learned textual critics have traced the scriptures back to other religions, and that it was all plagiarized, and entirely unreliable. You'll be pleased to inform this ignorant Christian that Jesus was a fictional personage....an amalgamation, again, borrowed from other religions. You'll throw in a few tidbits on archaeologist's findings and interpretations, that should debunk any Christian's foolish dependence on a mere book. An antiquated book which Christians prize so highly, as their final authority on everything, and you, thankfully, have the straight dope, and will save us from our ignorance.

    Here's the bottom line, for you. Everyone has their final authority, even if it's just "Thus saith Robert Allen." Drawing from your lack of respect for human life, I can reasonably conclude that you're a faithful disciple of Darwin, for if all life came from nothing, and "Mother Nature" is responsible for our evolution, then there's no need for God, as our Father. There's no fall, no sin, no judgment. It's all a hoax, a fable, invented to enslave one group, and empower the other. My position is that God created everything, just as we see it today. God is holy, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. We, as God's special creation, had fallen, rebelled, and continues to sin against Him. We are responsible to our Creator, and will stand in judgment, one day. We both have our individual faith, Robert....our "religion." Since real science is based on observation, and neither you nor I were there to see the big bang happen, or special creation, then neither of us can prove our position. They BOTH MUST be taken on FAITH. Personally, I think my model makes much more sense, because in all of human experience, to this very day, you won't find one example, in nature, of getting something from nothing. Yet the evolutionist says, "Nope. It happened, at least once. We didn't see it happen.....but we know it did." You argue that you came from a single-celled organism, and I would agree that your methods of debate bear out that fact. I argue that I was fearfully and wonderfully created by omnipotence and omniscience. Acknowledging that pearl of wisdom is something you'll never be capable of grasping, until you acknowledge your Creator.

    ps I'll bet it slipped right by you....the irony of you respecting a single-celled organism, from billions of years ago, versus your disdain for a single-celled potential, fully-functioning human being, with only a nine-month wait. Glorious hypocrisy!

  • Chrispy777

    Since you, as an AntiTheist, do not know the bible better than the most ignorant Christian (and depends on cable TV for his indoctrination), then this one is a slam dunk. Abel offered a blood sacrifice, as God had commanded, and Cain attempted to offer his own fruits and/or vegetables. Cain did wrong, and he knew it. Was he jealous of Abel, having been accepted of God? Absolutely. Haven't you and Robert Allen ever wondered why you argue so vociferously against a God-fearing, life-respecting Christian, such as myself?

  • Chrispy777

    The fact that you were raised Catholic, and have no need or respect for the holy scriptures, doesn't surprise me. I also was raised Catholic, and the bible was never stressed as the word of God. Church tradition and the pope's declarations, always over-shadows the bible. Romans 10:17 says,"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." I'm not sorry that you're offended by me quoting bible "facts." It's my life book, and when you're talking about the extinguishing of life in the womb, the bible has plenty to say about it, and against it. King David wrote in Psalm 139:12-18 "Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being imperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee."

    I was tempted to highlight certain portions quoted above, but I'll take for granted that you can grasp the basic message that God can see everything going on inside the womb, even if we can't.

  • dewflirt

    Equality and sameness are two different things, neither sex is better and you can't have one without the other. Women are not as physically strong as men, granted, but if you challenged me to a duel (and if I had ever even held a gun before!) either one of us could end up as fertiliser ;)

  • dewflirt

    Don't think I've ever read a passage from the bible without it sounding like it was written by Dogberry from Much ado About Nothing, it's half good at a glance but really says nothing.... Or anything :)

  • Topi Tuulensuu

    I was going to criticize the document maker from asking stupid questions about shooting jews or not, but then he started asking about abortion at that point I just wanted to hit him. Playing on stupid peoples emotions like that: "you wouldn't shoot jews would you? Well you are against abortion too right?" This guy is just manipulating thous poor people by putting words in their mouth and twisting their word and more so confusing impressionable viewers.
    I hope no one takes anything away from this documentary.

  • robertallen1

    There you go again, saying what is Christian and what isn't and basically speaking from ignorance.

    As for that insignificant clump of cells being life, the same describes a tumor, i.e., there is nothing special about it.

    And no, you have not given "an intelligent, reasonable fact-based argument against disposing of life." You've merely reiterated your dogma.

  • robertallen1

    A denial is not a refutation--but this probably goes over your head.

    If all you can do is quote from your damn Bible, you don't have a leg to stand on.

  • robertallen1

    Your answers to the first two questions show you up for the ignoramus that you are. Your answer to the third is false or you wouldn't have answered the first two the way you did. The remainder of your post is nothing more than typical religious drivel displaying the usual ignorance of science and practically everything else. Your attempt to debase textual scholars and scientists is really an attempt to debase knowledge and the acquisition of it in favor of ignorance, superstition and shakey moral high ground.

    And yes, your bible is antiquated and anyone who uses it as you do and for the same purposes is, to put it mildly, a blinded fool, which you have demonstrated admirably.

    In all, you are everything I thought you were from the beginning, someone whose inane religion imbues him with the conceit to dictate right and wrong to others, but who really knows as much about "god" and all the baggage that goes with it as he does about science. In other words, someone pathetically delusional--and this is the person who is telling women that abortion is sinful?

  • robertallen1

    I'll give you an answer to your last question. Because of all the ignorance which you not only stand for but promote.

  • robertallen1

    So the bible is your "life book." Just remember, not everyone is as superstitious and wilfully ignorant as you.

  • robertallen1

    Your right. The normative judgment is irrelevant here. And if you go back to my original answer to you in which I applauded you for being such a poor feminist, you will find that I never stated that one sex is better than the other.

  • Barry_Joseph

    All you have done in your last statement was quote rubbish from your story book which I've dealt with in my last comment so unless you can think of something to say out of that tiny little mind of yours get back to me as one can't really argue with fiction.

  • robertallen1

    How about disgust?

  • AntiTheist666

    @Dewflirt

    Hello Flirty One

    You’re spot on there. Much flokkyknockypilocksandfornication.

    The Crucified One

  • Achems_Razor

    By that same analogy why would your so called gods give a hoot about us almost invisible carbon units taking into perspective the size and vastness of the universe since we were here in the time scale of the universe as long as a neutrino striking a hydrogen atom, a mere flicker, and then you have the sheer audacity to say you have a pipeline to your gods and everything was made just for us.

    Funny religee's.

  • Achems_Razor

    There you go again, circular logic, the bible told me so ad nauseum, is that all you religee's have as your proof, nobody with any smarts that is, pays attention to that gooblygook anymore, doesn't mean squat!!

  • over the edge

    @Chrispy777
    do you have any actual proof for your stance on abortion? because if your stance right or wrong is based on religion or an opinion you have no right to force it upon others. we can both quote the bible to support our positions. you can show your lack of understanding of evolution and the big bang. neither have anything to do with this subject and in my opinion are an attempt to distract from the actual topic of debate here. the only two relevant questions here in my opinion are. when does life begin? and when does another person have the right to dictate what someone does with/to their own body. so with that in mind i will ask again. where is your proof?

  • AntiTheist666

    @Brennilthos64

    Ha ha, I really did laugh out loud. Don’t cry too much, until a few days ago I thought you were female. Now that’s a great compliment ;-)

  • dewflirt

    Hello sixes, good bit of mangling there, Shakespeare in a word, impressive :)

  • Pysmythe

    I'm a very great lover of their beauty (and their nature), too, and am probably even a little jealous of it. Look at the power it gives them! Maybe it would've been better if I had been female, but, then again, like someone said once, I probably would've just sat around and played with my boobs all day, lol.

    The bwahahaha was laughter, though, not crying, and was just a little attempt at "sudden absurdity," for want of a better way to put it, not too closely in connection with anything else, and definitely mindless. Sort of a verbal slapstick.

  • AntiTheist666

    @Dewflirt

    Felicitations Flirty.

    Thanks, it seems quite apt as I’m watching a fab version of Twelfth Night Write now :-)

  • dewflirt

    True, you didn't. It does make me wonder though how a woman would return the manners, can't think of any equivalent. And no 'angel in the kitchen, lady in the living room' comments, we like our cake and eat it! ;)
    Edit, I am informed by my other half that that is exactly what men expect. Also that I score well in two out of three, apparently I ought to talk less. Needless to say, privileges are withdrawn til further notice! :)

  • dewflirt

    So naughty! ;)

  • AntiTheist666

    @Brennilthos64

    WOW. That whole first paragraph. I feel exactly the same. Well almost. Lol

    Laughing, crying, absurd mindless slapsticks are all welcome here. I enjoyed it whatever it was.

  • Pysmythe

    In the definitions I saw last night, "feign knights" was given as an alternate spelling, with a reference to the Templars. "Faynights" is given as a variant originating from the London area, in reference to the game of tag, and meaning one who utters it can't be given a penalty, or be had.

    Thanks for increasing my vocabulary, and for adding a little childish enchantment to what had the potential to be something more serious!

    (I will also check out the truce words wiki.)

  • dewflirt

    If I have to stay serious for too long I end up laughing at wrong things and getting in trouble, I could feel it welling up :)

  • AntiTheist666

    That first interpretation was the biblical version; this is it in the original Shakesmanglian.

    Floppyknockerswilliestittiespillocksandfornication.

  • dewflirt

    I'm from Shakesmanglia, think I like the revised edition even more!
    You know it's going to take longer to open the curtains than it will to perform your plays though, expect nuts to be thrown at you ;)

  • robertallen1

    I am not sure what you mean by "return the manners."

    And speaking of the "angel in the kitchen." I'll never forget Billary's disgusting pronunciamento that women should stop baking cookies and get out of the kitchen. Like most feminists, Billary feels called upon to dictate to all women. It is beyond her understanding that some women like to bake cookies and mind the homestead while others desire to make a career for themselves--and that, whether she likes it or not, both alternatives are acceptable.

    P.S. If your other half doesn't want you, there are probably a number of posters on this site who do. So open up those options.

  • AntiTheist666

    @Dewflirt

    How very dare you speak such truth! Nuts! I want my slings and arrows!

    PS I’ll have you know some of my plays have lasted for what seemed like a lifetime. Lol ;-)

  • dewflirt

    Watch it there Mr A, you're getting funnier the longer you spend here :) return the manners as in return the favour, you men have chivalry and we have... What?
    Don't know what to say about the cookie lady, think she must not like cookies very much. Or maybe her mum wouldn't make her any. Poor soul :(
    As for the P.S, I'm flattered you think it possible but I have my doubts. And in spite of my Man's naff sense of humour I am crazy in love and terribly loyal :)

  • dewflirt

    The nuts are your outrageous misfortune, the length of the plays will be ours ;)

  • robertallen1

    Men have chivalry and women have--and you do know.

    P.S. Remain flattered.

  • dewflirt

    Oh, it's true then! In that case I do know. Men!
    P.S, Thankyou :)

  • robertallen1

    The only ones who don't seem to know are Catholics and from what's come out recently, I think they only pretend.

    P.S.  Do you like Noel Coward?

    ________________________________

  • robertallen1

    So does everyone else, except perhaps Catholics, but from what's recently come out, I think they just pretend.

    P.S. Do you like Noel Coward?

  • dewflirt

    They know it, they just worry about it too much. Don't know much about Noel, I do like Blithe Spirit though.

  • robertallen1

    And now everyone has to worry about it to the tune of damaged lives and billions of dollars. I say tax the churches.

    P.S. When it came to dealing with the Pope, Henry VIII had the right idea.

  • leonardobdas

    wow.... 400 hell-a-fun bickerings. fun! You know how I got around the stressful christian arguments? By always saying to them "Thanks but no thanks: I rather get aids than accept jesus in my life..I know there are less side effects. " It works like a charm! try it... it is hilarious.

  • dewflirt

    What a windfall that would be, imagine all the children it would save, all the people that would benefit from hard cash instead of stern words and archaic rules. Henry inventing his own church was vanity and childish foot stamping. Spoilt boy! He made himself defender of a faith that was catholic in all but name, can't go ostracising (sp? ) all your subjects on such a whim as a woman ;) Very beautiful armour, incredible craftsmanship. Here endeth my knowledge of Henry. Except to say that I worked at Anne of Cleves house for a while, only two rooms over a coach house when she was there.

  • robertallen1

    And even better, it might put most of the churches out of business and think of the constructive use we could find for the buildings and their accoutrements. Of course, it would throw a lot of clerics out of work, but there's always the fields, the stables and the ditches.

    Although I much prefer his daughter, I can't help but like a monarch who during those times, peaceful as they were, tells the Pope where to go and in essence anoints himself Pope of his newly-founded church, sort of a precursor to Martin Luther, Jim Jones and L. Ron Hubbard.

    And speaking of churches, a few years ago, following in Henry's footsteps, I tried to found one of my own: The Cash and Carry Church of Jesus. Love gifts included, computers, television sets and Lamborginis for which "donations" were exacted. While there was only one cardinal sin, an NSF check, forgiveness for bankruptcy could be sought and obtained at the confessional which was shaped like a teller's window. I was even thinking of presenting a public offering, but ----

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZMK6YNWJACHQ5CRCJW5TNYFURI KsDevil

    And this is how conmen work. Posing narrow ideas to maliable people with leading and misleading questions and providing emotional punishment and reward techniques. Oh, and editing the video to insure your point is supported. But, I knew what I was getting into when I chose to watch this documentary.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZMK6YNWJACHQ5CRCJW5TNYFURI KsDevil

    We are conditioned by society to respond differently to different genders. Some people accept the conditioning and some try to fight it. But since it has gone on for thousdands of years, it has a genetic component to it.

  • robertallen1

    I mentioned this in one of my later posts. I guess this genetic component is called a meme, a la Richard Dawkins.

  • Manu Hashidate

    Ray Comfort I find utterly, personally repugnant. His bullying of these kids he stops in the street, and his creative editing of their response - sucks!

  • robertallen1

    If this is supposed to be some anti-abortion statement, it won't wash. They are children only after they come out of the womb.

  • Jayjay30

    iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii

  • Jayjay30

    Maybe children of the current and future Old dependent and dying parents should just kill their parents on the basis that, They did not ask to be born and certainly never asked to care for their parents in their old age. If no care home or no one is willing to adopt the lump of old dying cells then as it will be the child's responsibility to make a decision on their parent's LIFE (care); I think the children should also have the right to kill their Old parents and save them form what could be a bad quality of life.

  • http://www.facebook.com/margi.wombok Margi Wombok

    dislike this doco significantly.... the 'journalist' starts on an acceptable point: hitler was an evil turd and people aren't being taught enough about such historical atrocities. it's fucked that people are forgetting about that. true. BUT... wtf? he then starts pushing the anti-abortion and christian/jewish agenda. what does abortion or any religious agenda have to the crimes that hitler perpetrated against many people because of many prejudices he held and prayed upon.

    "finish this sentence: its ok to kill a BABY in the womb when......" come on! that's blatant emotional deception, praying on people's inability to express themselves clearly in the face of an interrogator. targeting one's fears and morals in such a double-speaking half-truthful manner is utterly unconscionable. he opens up with something everyone will basically agree upon (except for the ignorant and narrow minded 'punk' neonazi dickwad at the beginning) only to turn it around on them and slap them in the face with that, putting them in a corner when it comes to answering such emotionally-charged, agenda-driven questions. his choice of words is deliberately poor and misguiding and ultimately drives one judeo-christian standpoint.

    please take this 'documentary' down. this isn't a documentary -this is blatant judeo-christian propaganda. and the narrator/interrogator is FAR from a true journalist. he's just using 'baby killing' and nazi racism as a platform to preach his personal belief systems. NOT INDEPENDENT OR UNBIASSED REPORTING AT ALL.

  • dewflirt

    I was in the chemists yesterday getting nit combs, a girl of about 16 and her boyfriend bowled in already in the midst of an argument. They checked out the prices of pregnancy tests, the cheapest there was £3.91 (free if you go to family planning or the doctor )
    In the end they decided it was too expensive, he needed the money for a packet of tobacco and whatever was left he wanted for a party that night. The argument spilled out onto the street, I bought the test, dropped it into her hand as I passed and walked off. Their nerves about the results were probably the real reason for the anger, typical teens getting bolshy when they don't know what else to do. Now I worry what will happen to them. Where were their parents, why couldn't they speak to them, how had she fallen in with a lad that could bully her out of something so important just so he could get a packet of fags ? If she has a baby, will he stick with her, or support his child if not ? What will become of the baby, will anyone be there to help? I'm not trying to change your mind or anyone else's on this. My point has only ever been that if you want to end abortion, then society as a whole will have to step up, offer more help, foster and adopt more kids, pay more taxes to pay their benefits, provide housing etc. Next time you're standing in line at a shop, count how many people stick their change in the charity box. I'm guessing that if old people are living longer, then a good proportion of them are also enjoying better health for longer, and a good set of grandparents can be exactly what a young family needs. Instead of giving people a hard time for making difficult decisions in difficult times, ask yourself if you are doing enough to help and try a little understanding and compassion rather than laying guilt trips on people. Sorry for the lecture, didn't plan on waffling on so long, it's just something I care very deeply about :)

  • AntiTheist666

    Saint Flirtious of Kindness.

    What an Angel you are.

    Good point, well put.

  • Achems_Razor

    Good going there flirt!

  • Plonkette

    Legalized abortion represents upto a 50% drop in crime rates in areas with it. Look it up.

    I find it ironic that people can get behind wars that lead to the deaths of 100's of thousands of people, yet they 'wont murder and unborn child'. LOL. I guess once they pop out its time for a bombing.

  • Jayjay30

    Pro-abortion people who are arguing on science basis are equaling fetus to cancer tumor even though they know that the DNA of a fetus will instruct that bunch of cells to develop in to a human just as well the cancer cells DNA will instruct them to develop in to a tumor. I find it repulsive that such a comparison is made but I understand the convenience and the purpose for such an argument . Talk about knowledge miss-use, with arrogance that one is telling such misleading science to irrational bunch of people .
    You Dewflirt on the other hand, are arguing the quality of life for the child once it's born but you seem also like the "pro-abortion scientist" to be ignoring or deliberately omitting part of the evidence that you're aware of . The evidence that life involves risks and opportunities which is what makes life beautiful . To predetermine a fetus life and terminate it based on assumptions that as a child it will have a hard life, I think is unjust to the fetus and convenient to the parent .
    I don't think myself or anyone can impose gilt on another because it's about one's conscience and them being able to justify their action to it.
    All in all I agree with you about charity and society having to take responsibility of it's decision should it decide to make abortion illegal.
    I empathize and respect your passion and hope you can be the same with mine :-)

  • robertallen1

    Yes and the Catholic church is one of the biggest offenders.

  • robertallen1

    I, for one, don't because if anti-abortionists such as you had their way, women who undergo abortions would be criminalized for making a choice on a personal matter which is really no one else's business. It says something for contemporary society that a therapeutic abortion is now easier to obtain than it ever was.

  • musbcrazy

    sadly i disrespect this type of journalism!

    the topic of the holocaust is somethin which cant be proved one way or another, some believe it happened as claimed, some believe numbers were exaggerated and others believe it never happened. bringing this topic up over and over just creates tensions and feelings of anti-semitism

    and the whole bringing up of abortion is getting out of hand! a topic which is ruining meaningful fiscal debate in the current elections!

    this documentary concludes very little other a man trying to impose his views on the general public!

  • Jayjay30

    Well summed up there Dewflirt, by a good artist too. The funny thing though is I can't help but wonder if we would have had the privilege to hear in our life time, such a beautiful song; had this artist's mother decided to abort ;considering every individual is unique .. ;-)

  • robertallen1

    There is no other side. The holocaust happened and if you don't believe it, there are still a few survivors to set you straight--and it certainly should be brought up again and again, no matter the so-called tensions and anti-semitism.

    Now, what's this about the topic of abortion getting out of hand and by the way what is "fiscal debate?"

  • musbcrazy

    firstly, my comment wasn't a reflection of my own views it was an observation of conflicting opinions in society! my personal view on the holocaust is that of course it did happen but i do feel it has been over represented in the jewish community, millions of others from other minority groups suffered just the same. 11 million the figure in the doc with 5 million not jewish.

    i think this world has had about as much division and tension as it can take so stirring up further emotions in my opinion isnt helpful!

    the abortion issue, i make myself clear on that also....im pro life but these social issues seem to be dominating the US debate. although i appreciate their significance they are somethin which can be decided on a state level. fiscal means money or monetary...so the economic issues debate, along with foreign policy and liberties. these are bigger issues to be dealt with on a national level but politicians would rather make social issues more important as they dont want to get into bigger problems.

  • robertallen1

    Absolutely not, the social issues, especially as they pertain to individual rights, are far more important than foreign policy or world-wide economics, for they affect us directly and locally.

    P.S. And just how do you intend to put an end to this division and tension?

  • dewflirt

    Cheers Blue :)

  • sknb

    forget it

  • CANADAIAN

    This was terrible.

    Ever watch the perfect vagina? There is good medical reasons for both, however, people always take it to far. It goes from "good medical reason" to "good reason" to "because I can".

  • dewflirt

    Are you Jehovahs witness ?

  • PLsmscientist

    WTF, who gives a dam if you are jewish! Already the start of this doc pis... me off. Stop believing these propaganda parassits.

  • Jayjay30

    No and I don't even believe in God; it's just that my girlfriend just aborted the fetus she claimed to be ours . She still wants us to carry on as before but I'm struggling to see her in the same light because I still can't understand how her conscience could let her do it and I wonder what else she is capable of doing.

  • dewflirt

    Ah, I see now :) if you had just been honest from the start you might have gotten a little understanding. I was wondering what you were pushing for, thought you were trying to corner people. Are you looking for someone to have it out with? I know nothing about you, your lady or your situation so I can't (actually wont) comment on what you're feeling. Here is not the place and these are not the people that have answers for you. You really need to talk it out between yourselves, your only other option is to walk away. Looking for answers here is like hunting a thimble in a sack of needles, it's only going to hurt. I don't know where you live so I can't give you specific advice but most pregnancy and abortion advisory services offer post abortion counselling to men and women. Maybe that's an option too. I hope in time you find a way to feel better, sorry I can't be of help :)

  • dmxi

    do i detect a hint of sarcasm?

  • dewflirt

    Not at all, scouts honour. Thought it sounded beautiful :)

  • dmxi

    feel better now,never heard 'as beautiful as a confetti of flowers',even googled it without results. it seems,i'm soft in the head.
    thanks for the complement,had a bad day & needed something uplifting.i owe you one.................all the best wishes..............d.

  • dmxi

    i just posted a 'thank you' comment but it has to be approved first(eerie!)...so just in case it's slipped under someones pillow:
    "cheers,dew!"

  • Jayjay30

    "Here is not the place and these are not the people that have answers for you "
    I thought who best to understand the core of an idea from, than the radicals. :-)
    it wasn't totally a bad idea though because I think I got to know of views that people would never express to the face of someone dealing with lose.

  • dewflirt

    Thanks :) hope your day gets better, strange edit though :)

  • dewflirt

    Jayjay, I'm thinking of the privacy you and your lady share. Not sure it should be shared with thousands of strangers, you might be mad at her but the story is not just yours. Please, go and talk to her :)

  • Jayjay30

    It's aright Dewflirt I think I've got the privacy covered but thanks all the same. Who knows I might not be the only one in my situation; maybe someone else will benefit from both point of views :-)

  • Kateye70

    Nicely put thoughts about the male side of the issue. Just bear in mind that not only does the woman bear the foetus in her body, she also has to consider the child's welfare once it is born.

    It would be nice if all men were man enough to be fathers as well as dna-donors, but sadly, this is not the case. There are truly times when a child would be better off unborn than to have its particular dna-donor.

    I had to make that decision myself, and realized that the potential father I was looking at could not be trusted to have the care of his own child. That was a cold wake-up, let me tell you.

    God bless contraception.

  • Kateye70

    I'm always surprised at how many people think being a feminist equals being rude. I'll gladly open a door for any man if I get there first, and thank him if he does the same for me.

    Courtesy is the oil of social interaction, regardless of gender.

  • dewflirt

    If someone is looking to make an informed decision, then with the greatest respect to this website, I hope they do so by going to the right people for advice rather than watching 180. Trust me, banana man does not have all the answers, just a big mouth and dubious fruit 'facts'. Take it easy jj ;)

  • Jayjay30

    LOL !!!! that might be true !!! but if that information seeking individual reads posts like yours and Azilda's among others they might just take away some useful info ... take care df ;-)

  • Guest

    ALso, this idea of male jobs and female jobs around the house is bull, i'll gladly mow the lawn, split some wood, take the carbage out, change a faulty light switch or plug, paint a room, as i will let him do the dishes, laundry and cook a meal.
    Opening my door of the car....don't need it, thank you...the handle is right next to me.
    az

  • http://www.facebook.com/jacekmaciag Jacek Maciag

    This documentary or rather an political and religious ad makes me want to stop not abortion but Ray Comfort himself. First of all, I'm convinced it doesn't show all the opinions those ppl had thus making it completely onesided. It also portays people who rarely had to face abortion and did not give the subject enough thought. Think about an example: how easy would it be for you to convince somebody who has never been to Greece, saying that it is beautiful and almost magic to go and live there, while not stating the fact that their economy is hitting the bottom, and there is almost no possibility to survive there. A bit long example but hopefully you get me. That is what I think this doc lacks - balanced opinions.
    Secondly, Ray Comfort is a die-hard christian. I wonder why not shoot a documentary on child abuse in church. Thats also a condemning "sin" I guess. When will people learn that what religion only brings about is partition and hatred. Just to be crystal clear I do tolerate religious folks but also I think faith is for the faint-hearted. And I would never accept an argument saying thet belief is the only thing that gives meaning and depth to our lifes. Even such an argument is shallow. Ray Comfort often uses the argument that Bible has the ultimate answer. Well maybe if pre-second world war history was as poorly documented as pre-bible was and people were as poorly educated as back then, Mein Kampf would hold the ultimate answer too. Don't be stupid and always question what others tell you.

    Finally, I agree that adoption is a good idea in some of the cases, but not always. It's the only idea I got right from watching the movie.

  • AntiTheist666

    In response to BananaMan’s “advert” or “commercial”.

    I’m thinking of launching my own Cola? It’s called “GodSux”.

    This is a possible ad campaign.

    EvergivinCoolFizizinGodSquashinDogmaDissinReligionBashinMythBustinAnti-theism.

    Convert to GodSux.
    Taste the difference, it’s delicious!

    Do you think it’s a goer?

    The Crucified One

  • Guest

    I like the idea, but you should make it the first blue pop drink, black won't sale...too much competition.
    az

  • Guest

    I looked at your line of i ssss and it reminded me of a pack of children lined up and the millions that could be behind it, if seen from above.

    The only person we can be the master of is ourself, there has been a zillions ways to be the seed of that. Some seeds don't get a chance, they never sprout, others do but throw that opportunity away for no reason other then not being conscient of that feasibility.
    Anyone's situation can fulfill that role, anyone's situation can be reversed and in fact often times the hardest situation leads to the strongest outcome, perhaps not financially but humanly. Grace, wisdom, philanthropy can happen to any men/women/child.
    I much rather compare a child to a seed then to a lump of tumor because all seeds hold a great potential but only one that sprouts can push through the dirt it was born in.
    az

  • AntiTheist666

    So witty :-)

  • LesterWise

    "...Taste the difference, it’s delicious!" - that was a funny post.

    There is a lot of arguments about late term abortions. Last trimesters or last few months seeming more viscous to some people's point of view.

    Personally, I think abortion should be legal until 4-5.

    After that, they start going to school and it would be tough to explain their sudden disappearance.

  • Jayjay30

    I'll exaggerate the truth in explaining the level of my understanding of life in comparison to your comprehension and wisdom of it, by saying "this is a meeting of minds" ....lol
    I like your view on my i ssss, that's a deep thinker's perspective. ;-)

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_4HRTAHZSOVJXTQ6P4UHAJU4WLQ Thomas Moore

    Why does the written introduction above the movie say that the movie is a failure? So much for liberals presenting neutrally....

    A woman today asked if it wasn't better for a child to be aborted than to end up in the orphanage....I asked her if she wanted to kill all of the orphans since it was better to be dead....she didn't have an answer.

  • robertallen1

    Yes, it would be better for an child to be aborted than to end up in an orphanage--and this has nothing to do with killing all orphans. Quite frankly, I think this woman is one of your strawmen--it won't wash.

  • Michael Brown

    Quite wrong, by the very same analogy God does give a hoot about not pressing the fire button, for the sole reason, irrelevant of arbritrary measurements of space ... that there is an active potential for a unique human life.

  • robertallen1

    How do you know so much about God?

  • Michael Brown

    Quite a biblical comment here, regardless of your like or dislike of the book. A well-thought, perfectly valid and very insightful statement.

    We are both theological/religious polar opposites, even still I have to commend you for your compassion, care and concern for the girl.

    Thanks.

  • Michael Brown

    Invalid supposed logic here, is utility/usefulness really your measuring stick to live life with?

    Suppose that these wars and amoral murders of eastern citizens had large benefit for the masses? You would have no choice but to define it as okay.

  • Michael Brown

    Ray Comfort convincingly argued that the murders of Jews and non Jews WAS our business.

  • Michael Brown

    You are just like the neo-nazi in the documentary. If I had to imagine your persona, I would put large bets on that guy.

  • robertallen1

    That's not what he's saying.

    "Suppose that" doesn't count.

  • robertallen1

    Nothing he argued was convincing, only contrived.

    Abortion is an issue personal to the woman involved and none of anyone else's business, yours included.

  • Achems_Razor

    Like @robertallen1: asked, how do you know so much about god?

    Oh wait! you must be religious and of course have a pipeline to all the invisible friends/deities in your mind, because that is the only place that they reside, strictly in the mind, not real!

  • Guest

    Not to argue, but concerning the perception of life, most concept live in the mind first before it is acknowledged as living in the real..
    az

  • robertallen1

    I sometimes wonder if the same can be said about pure mathematics.

  • robertallen1

    How about mathematics, engineering and architecture?

  • Guest

    yes all concepts exist in the mind first.
    az

    later....off to work.

  • robertallen1

    Wrong. You obviously have not read about the histories of the three disciplines I've mentioned.

  • Achems_Razor

    Az...Well yes, but I always go deeper as you know, there is no living in the real, real what? what is real? nothing, all is illusion. The Matrix lol.

    Everything is in the mind, where else can it be, out there? and only by our thoughts, intents and actions we make it so into our collective corporeal reality by collapsing the waveform from the unlimited sea of probabilities. Can't put it any simpler, and this is not from Deepak Chopra lol, it is from reputable quantum physicists.

  • eireannach666

    Ok ill play Achems' advocate. When do you suppose consciousness comes into play? I.E. when is it fair to say that this fetus has a conscious drive to want to be born? Not the instinctive drive of genetics
    , just because thats what it does in these circumstances. But when is it self aware of its own being? Does it ever? Dors anybody have any hard data?

    (Im not talking a soul. No religion please. Im talking only from a realistic standpoint. Please.)

    Which leads me to another question depending on the answer, of course.

  • Guest

    Exactly! Nothing is real but we human stamp it as reality once it becomes accepted as such by the known standards.
    Everything is in the mind.
    @eireannach666 (is it ok to shorten this name, hard to remember..how about e6?)
    I would guess conciousness comes into a child with the first contact. He/she is touched, something it never felt before.
    There may be an instant when the thought: "what is that" soars. Then after, conciousness grows like a sprout coming out of the dirt.
    az

  • Achems_Razor

    Just call him eire666... there is always consc. of the body, the autonomic nervous system etc: consc. comes into the fold when the child recognizes himself, the consc of I as you say, you know, I have spelled "consciousness" about 20,000 times so far, still get it wrong, driving my spell checker nuts, so will abbrev from now on.

    I also believe that the consc, keeps on growing until it can not reach any further heights.

  • Guest

    I think conciousness keeps growing until death. May be my analogy to a sprout is not bad. Although all trees reach a certain maximum heights, it keeps on growing until it falls to the ground.
    My father is living something entirely new with the intervention he just had, his conciousness is making him be aware of a dimension he never knew existed. At 77 he has reached a certain height but now he is becoming wider with small details, like an oak tree.

    Concerning a child, i believe conciousness arises not by recognizing oneself but by being aware of exterior mouvement. Then the conciousness of the self immerges slowly by flapping one's hands around, putting fingers in the mouth, slapping one self, kicking and feeling objects with feet. The recognition that those members are of the self comes weeks later.
    az

  • eireannach666

    @Az
    You can shorten it as youd like kitten. As long as you keep it nice.

    So you say at the moment of touch. Achems says nervous system. I agree with Achems. Ill say why.

    Az /Achems what do you think the conscious mind is doing up to that point? Is it operational prior to the full nervous system being made? Surely the subconscious mind is also being uploaded. Dna has no consciousness or does it pocess a more subtle version. Afterall it will assert its copy me instructions when triggered. Elaborate if you will.
    (Ep needs in on this.)

    They say at 9 or 10 weeks the fetus has a developed a operational nervous sys. Can feel pain. Also most importantly to my stance, starts a database. Goes from upload to download ic you will.

  • Pysmythe

    I'm not quite sure I'd call it consciousness, but fetuses have been observed on ultrasound actually masturbating. My own suspicion (I'm not a psychologist) about consciousness is that it must take language to fully kick it into gear. I think that must be one reason we retain so few memories from early childhood: We don't have words yet to form concepts or assign meanings, as though we need not only the images but some kind of critique of them before they're laid down in our minds... or else we don't even preserve the images.

  • CANADAIAN

    I seen in a doc that the lobe or gland, for memory, isn't fully developed until we about three I think. Kinda like the liver and knee caps. There is another part that is developed pertaining to things like motor skills.

  • eireannach666

    Well once we start multiplying our neurons its over. Neurons are everything. They are our files and database. In fact you now have an eire666 neuron. Youre welcome. It will trigger everytime you see my name or think it. Everytime your senses pick of anything they send it to the database as a copy. Remember that when you warch t.v. or those hideous colmercials. Lol laterz

  • over the edge

    @eireannach666
    i know it is frowned upon to go off topic but i think this one will be allowed. vlatko started a new site with lectures and debates called "keen talks" it's very good. you can find it on page four of recently added docs (as of this post).

  • eireannach666

    Ok thanks my friend. Ill look into it. Cheers.

  • Guest

    perhaps life=consciousness, so as little as we know, even a sperm might have consciousness although not a consciousness we can define being what we are, being what it is.
    Is a tree conscious? not in term of how we define consciousness, but would the consciousness of a tree think that we humans are conscious?
    The only place these answers could be found is perhaps in death...where again an other kind of consciousness may behave.

    I am curious have you had a child? i should say has any woman have a child of you?
    az

  • eireannach666

    I say trees and plants also other animals and life are aware for sure. Would you like examples? I can provide them.

    Its a less evolved consciousness. It to evolved throughout time. Along side ourselves too.

    I raised my exs daughter from 5yrs to 18yrs old. Im a godfather to my niece which i help raise. Why may i ask? Im not offended just curipus as to how come or what made you ask,kitten?

  • Guest

    totally agree with conciousness of trees...just don't have a clue how it is felt by the heterochthonous...lol

    I was wondering if you had had the opportunity to look in the eyes of a newborn for hours on, day in day out.

    I became a grand mother almost 2 yrs ago, i have had the pleasure to be very much part of my grand son's life....a lot during the first 6 days and a lot after too.

    So many questions comes to mind when gazing in the eyes of a newborn.
    az

  • eireannach666

    I coulndt agree more. I have indeed seen through your eyed. I understand. Thats why i get a bit upset about the deviciveness and abbusive way religion inflicts or id demanded upon these kids. We are all born atheiest. But are potentially coheresed into belirf or even threatened by death or death after death etc

    I like you. Youre really a good conversation.

  • Pysmythe

    Neural connections are everything, more specifically, lol. Which must be why infants never have "much of a consciousness" in retrospect. I suppose you could say (though it would probably be inaccurate) that neurons communicating with each other is the actual, fundamental language, and words are just our usual way of accessing what THEY have had to say, lol.

  • Pysmythe

    I thought memories are are actually saved in many different parts of the brain, perhaps as a bulwark against head-trauma and potentially losing everything as a result... but I could be wrong. I think I saw a doc, or an article, having something to do with this subject, too, but... I just can't remember! lol.

  • Pysmythe

    We are all also born with a predisposition to obey the authority of our elders for our own good, which religions are able to utilize to their advantage.

  • eireannach666

    Thats a genetic trait not a conscious awareness. Like being afraid of heights etc.. its instinct.

  • eireannach666

    Sorry. But neurons ARE the key to being in any state of mind. However you make a good observation. Please tell me what fqcts make you say this?

  • Pysmythe

    I simply meant that neurons need connections with other neurons in order to do what it is they are meant to do: i.e., generate consciousness. Isolated neurons would be pretty useless, it seems to me, without friends to play with. Kind of like a patient in a vegetative state... There, but not there, in effect.

  • Pysmythe

    But, in regards to my comment, it really doesn't much matter which one it is, does it? Just think of that old Jesuit adage: "Give me the child and I will give you the man."

  • robertallen1

    I wonder if we are predisposed to obey the authority of elders or it's really something drummed into us in childhood and out of us by experience (religees excepted).

    The same with phobias. I once knew a person who never gave ants a second thought until she was hypnotized into believing that they were crawling all over her body. For the rest of her life, she couldn't look at an ant without dread. Until I was 13, I never gave a second thought to crossing the street until I was nearly struck by a careless motorist. To this day, I experience mild trepidation (agliophobia) everytime I cross a busy intersection,

  • http://disqus.com/insanezenmistress/ Insanezenmistress

    lol. It is ok to kill a baby in the womb when you are a jewish soldier in the old testament and where ordered by jehova to dash the little ones against the stone, and to cut out the babies of the mothers so that they can watch them die. (bible reference?? if you want to know go find it, for if i tell you you will only google the appoligetic argument.)

  • eireannach666

    Ahhh. Ok. Gottcha. And i agree. But they are conscious. Nonresponsive maybe physicly but they are still responsive as in brainbactivity. Glad you clarafied. That was funny.

    Well whatbdo you say of the other proposed questions?

  • Pysmythe

    Well, as it turns out, I have to go shopping for a big, juicy steak to feed those neurons here in just a minute, lol. But I'll try to give you some kind of response a little later on this afternoon, ok?

  • eireannach666

    Ok. Thanx again.

  • Pysmythe

    I've (re)looked over the above posts and am having a little trouble deciding exactly what to cull in order to give my views on... More material is actually covered, or suggested, than would maybe be apparent at a glance! I'm fairly well-read and informed, but definitely not anything like an expert on the subject... But I'm going to assume that the question you'd like addressed is "when does consciousness really begin?"

    Seems that would be a very tough one even FOR the experts, lol. I'm not even sure the nature of consciousness has even been decided yet, has it? By which I mean: WHAT it is, exactly. HOW is it that "a mere neural net" generates something as grand as self-awareness? The WILL comes into play here in the management of it, too, but how, precisely, or when, IS that? And to take the solipsistic view, how can we even ever really be certain about other consciousnesses? And yet the answer to THAT one seems so blatantly obvious, doesn't it?! Like a consensus, but a consensus of whom?

    Turing machines...
    The Pygmalion myth...
    (And a bunch of other stuff in the Wikipedia article, lol)

    My own personal intuition about self-awareness goes back to the language thing, that such a method of writing to the hard-drive is necessary for true consciousness. We do not KNOW that we were ever infants, so can we say we were ever really there, outside of someone else assuring us that we were?... That we were a lively baby, a loving baby, etc., can only be known at second-hand, and so we weren't yet conscious BECAUSE of a lack of awareness of anything outside of ourselves, and our own needs, existing; that consciousness only becomes manifest once you become truly aware of your separateness from the world, and have a firm means to define it, outside of, for example, the instinctual reactions to pain or pleasure. But perhaps there are gleans here and there that any hard and fast rule about needing language for consciousness, to write to the drive, isn't always absolutely necessary, and one of them from my own experience: When I was 13 months old, they tell me I contracted pneumonia and had to be hospitalized. The earliest memory of which I'm sure, you might say the first instance of separateness, I can recall, is of being in a bed, with a clear tent over it, and of a large man with black-rimmed glasses looking in on me, who was apparently my grandfather who had come to visit me during my stay. I'm certain that at the time any language skills I may have had were quite miniscule, so it may be that the emotion and stress of the entire series of events leading to my being there somehow made for the preservation of that single image. Interestingly, the next earliest memory I have of my own uniqueness from the world dates from 2 years after that event, during a time when my language skills were undoubtedly much more developed.

  • eireannach666

    I really enjoyed this response. I agree with alot. I must go for now but rest assured that i will reply. Thank you for answering seriously.

  • Guest

    to know the awareness of a child, you can't count of your memory, you got to look into the eyes of a new born and then you have no doubt there is awareness. You then realize that quite possibly this child will forget the awareness exchanged on that moment but you won't ....ever....ever
    may be it's a mom thing....but with you, i kinda think you know what i mean.
    az

  • Pysmythe

    Oh, definitely! And I really should be careful about how I'm using the definition of achieving consciousness here... I do largely mean it simply as "the point at which the self is able to become aware of itself as a separate entity in life." I don't mean to in any way belittle or undermine the beauty and importance of infancy, or its significance on the child's future development of that as-of-yet incomplete consciousness. On my beloved Bali, the newborns there aren't even permitted to touch the profane ground for the first 210 days of their lives, nor are they given names yet, because they are considered newly-come from heaven and are too sacred for such things. They are carried everywhere for the duration, after which a religious ceremony is performed, their little feet are gently tapped on the ground, and they are finally welcomed into the human family and given a name. While I can't agree with the theology behind this (in THIS incarnation? lol), there is something so human and beautiful about this level of reverence for a newborn that is deeply moving to me.

  • dewflirt

    I have often wondered when it is a baby discovers it is separate from everything around it, when it is a thing itself. When you look into the face of a baby you can almost see them switch on sometimes, as if they've been on standby. They seem only exist in relation to other people, who knows, they probably don't even know the cot or their parents arms aren't part of them. I thought maybe when they start moving on purpose, when they focus properly and are able to move their heads. I even have doubts about that, it might just be that the world is changing around them and not them changing their view of the world. If you think about it we teach them that they have hands and tiny toes and tummies by touching them. Self awareness grows with the child, and I think the space between itself and other stuff is probably as important as contact with things. I don't think there is a point at which it happens. Even kids leaving home are still connected to their parents so maybe we are never totally self aware or independent. We measure ourselves by our relationships, experiences etc. Some people aren't even comfortable having thoughts of their own in case it puts them apart from others. Knowing your body is separate is not the same as understanding you exist as an individual. This is one of those thoughts that could go on forever and ultimately I'll come to know nothing more that I did at the start. Nice to get home after a long journey though. Next time I'm reincarnated I'll bring my old brain along for the ride and tether it to the new one and take notes ;)

  • Pysmythe

    You are an old soul, Dew. :)

  • dewflirt

    Funny boy :)
    Edit, in the best possible way :)

  • Werner Breedt

    What interesting conversations. It is very refreshing to have so many valuable comments to read, thank you!

    I also find consciousness a wonderfully tricky concept. When we speak of consciousness, do we mean an awareness of the environment, or an awareness of the fact that we are aware?

    An awareness of all life certainly seems evident in countless organisms on earth. They react to their environments in seemingly intelligible ways, and evolve over time. When we consider the problem of consciousness, should our goal be to find a definition suitable to all life, or simply for the human experience? I find the larger dimension of consciousness rather daunting, but I'm thoroughly pleased to be bothered by it. :)

    If feel the fact that all humans share a childhood amnesia, a time of utter unconscious experience during infancy, is very telling. Imagine you are relaxing on a park bench, watching a young child playing nearby. They are thoroughly engrossed in their world, exuberant and full of boisterous explosions of emotion. After some time, they notice you watching them, and their gaze shifts across to meet yours. Their face ripples with expression; it is clear there is life behind their eyes.

    If our experiences of infants clearly show an animated, conscious individual, while our experiences of ourselves as infants clearly shows a lack of awareness of self, could we draw the conclusion that animal and child life is largely lived unaware? That life could act consciously without ever being conscious of its consciousness?

  • CANADAIAN

    Its in Zeigeist moving forward around 26:30. Watching it again right now, not at all the doc I was thinking. And its 18 months not 3 years.

  • dewflirt

    I think to understand consciousness as the same as that of any other living thing we would have to put aside our egos and believe that we are no more important than anything else. Here on earth we feel important, that we are the copestone of intelligence. If we look out into space, all that (for me) flies out of the window and we go from top to bottom in no time flat, suddenly we are dust by comparison. Children have no idea of their place in the world, it extends only as far as their tiny horizon, their world is an intimate place. For a baby that world shrinks again, which is why I think self awareness grows with the child. If you watch when a baby first starts to pick things up, often they seem to forget that they have, or that they can let go. It's as if anything they touch could as easily be a part of them as their hand. It takes practice to know that some bits are you and some bits aren't. So I'm not sure either way whether we should look for a one size fits all definition of consciousness, I can't begin to understand how a baby thinks, nor how any other creature does. Maybe they think in similar ways, it's just our ever complicated surroundings that keep moving us humans up the scale. But then we could get lost in the search for the spark that set us in this direction whilst other animals kept it simple. You're right though, when you see a little one playing its almost overwhelming, infinite possibilities because they don't know our limits yet. And for your last sentence, I think that might be possible, anything is :)

  • Felicity Spencer-Smith

    The holocaust and abortion, you cannot compare the two. If you think from the perspective of the woman. You cannot simply the situation with "Its okay to kill a baby in the womb, when..."
    There are a million situations - what if you were diagonised with cancer and you had to choose between having a baby and dying, or saving your own life and having children later on.

    The interviewer's questions were badly phrased and too leading. This documentary made me so frustrated, I just wish he had interviewed me and I would have been able to let him see things from a different and open-minded perspective.

  • robertallen1

    Your interview would never have gotten into the documentary.

    P.S. I like your name. It's so beautifully Victorian.

  • andy seymour

    What a scum bag...Even making the comparison of the Holocaust and Abortion. Shows how stupid this man is.

  • KiKickyKi

    How can you be "pro-life" and be in favor of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, Drone attacks, and the death penalty. Be consistent and keep your hands off a woman's body. Fetuses are not persons, they are potential persons. We are only persons when we can exist outside the womb. To compare Hitler, who killed people to an abortion which destroys a potential person is a false equivalence. Estimates are as high as 30% of fertilized eggs spontaneously abort. That makes God the greatest abortionist there is!

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/I6DFNFNYRDUSSIHBP7QWWHUYZU Dédé Demesdeux

    The only problem is ... there were not even 6 million Jews in Europe
    before WW2 ...

    But moreover , Hitler ( a jewish name ) was the grandson of a Rothshild
    with a jewish mam , Eichmann ( the " architect " of the shoa ) was 108%
    jewish , so was Rosenberg ( the Guru of Nazi racial purity " ) !?!

    There were 9 generals , 74 top officers ( like SS Fuhrer Reinhart Heydrich ) , 1200 officers , and 150 000 soldiers that were half jewish , within Nazi
    ranks ...

    And all that financed by Jewish zionists !!!

    P.S. BTW ... the " zi " in " Nazi " , stood for " zionist " ( but nobody
    knew that at the time ... )

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/I6DFNFNYRDUSSIHBP7QWWHUYZU Dédé Demesdeux

    Fetuses are growing ... persons ...

    If something grows , it's alive ...

    If eggs " abort " by themselves , that's not an abortion , that's
    a failed attempt ...

    P.S. To " kill " or to " destroy " a life is not the same ?!?

  • robertallen1

    Are you for real?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mario-Zajarnyj/100000324215587 Mario Zajarnyj

    This is selective video. He selected people which were fit for his documentary. He can twist the thema to his use. Very unbalanced! I wonder if he would kill Hitler's mom.

    But the guy has his point.

  • carkrueger

    That was very compelling!

  • robertallen1

    The important thing is how valid is it.

  • robertallen1

    In which way?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/XDBWJMUKZ5TMVODAG7TWORNZJU woody

    Why didn't any one in this documentary question "Ray Comfort" about his motives when asking one sided questions? Clearly his questions were meant to corner the people who were being questioned. The editing implies a very weak argument on his behalf.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/XDBWJMUKZ5TMVODAG7TWORNZJU woody

    In what way?

  • carkrueger

    In a way you'll never understand.

  • robertallen1

    Again, what are you talking about?

  • carkrueger

    I agree that abortion is a silent holocaust, and it was compelling to see how people struggled with the moral quandary. That is what I'm talking about and I'm sure you'll never understand.

  • robertallen1

    You're right. It sounds moronic.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jon-Peck/617276891 Jon Peck

    I had to stop it after the embarrassing question: "Finish the sentence, It's ok to KILL a baby in the womb when..."

    That was all I needed to see.

    The man is a limbo genius. Limber. He stoops loooooow! You can see the moment in everyone's eyes when they realise they've been tricked. Snaffled like bush turkeys. There was gold tho...When he got them all emotional with Hitler talk then... WHAM! "What about abortion, ass hole?" Ha! Gold.

    I tell you what though... It was informative. Learned a lot about me. I think if that insane Neo-Nazi dk-bag headbutted him, it would have been the first time I gave a Neo-Nazi dk-bag a standing, bloody, ovation! That's a heavy burden for me...alright?

    Here's a question for the viewer: If you had one bullet in a rifle and Hitler's fetus-packed mum is standing next to Ray Comfort... Who would you shoot?

    SERIOUSLY!

  • smirkingelf

    Any excuse to bring the holocaust back into the picture, there have been many holocausts, why are they insisting on shoving the Jewish one down our throats every opportunity. So sick and tired of hearing about this ****

  • http://twitter.com/NoreenThompson7 Noreen Thompson

    LOL with you on this, Sensationalist religious fanaticism at it's best. Personally I don't remember any feelings or emotions while incubated inside the womb but religion continues trying to oppress women by dogmatically manipulating peoples thoughts with scaremongering tactics. YAWN!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_LK6B2HGMK4EHZ6YJ3I6WFKY77U DigiWongaDude

    I have no doubt that Ray believes he is right, and righteous in his efforts to spread his righteousness - but that by no means makes him so.

    I call what I just saw a deceitful interrogation with malicious intent to leverage coercion towards your [ray comfort] opinions, upon malleable minds...and I bet you [ray comfort] loved every minute of it. As did Hitler, as does the church.

  • over the edge

    DigiWongaDude
    the following is just an opinion. rey knows better he has been shown the evidence many times and has had his misconceptions corrected many times by people way more patient than i. he continues to spew his lies because he sells these ideas to others and makes himself rich. if he ever admitted he is wrong he would lose his income and what little undeserved fame he has.

  • Jane_Lane

    If/then statements do not work like that. Whichever side of the debate you fall on, using specious reasoning and false equivalencies does not help your cause.

  • Jane_Lane

    No it didn't, you are an *****. It stood for NAtionalsoZIalismus, or Nationalist Socialist. Which, by the way, has nothing at all to do with Socialism. It takes literally five seconds to look this stuff up. Jesus Christ.

  • Jane_Lane

    The Bible is notably quite silent on the issue of abortion. However, it's not silent about how you should judge not lest ye be judged, and how you shouldn't proclaim your religion on the corners, and that you should remove the log from your eye before commenting on the splinter in your brother's and a whole mess of other things modern Christians conveniently ignore to crusade against abortion, birth control and homosexuals.

  • http://www.facebook.com/lori.ferrera Lori Ferrera

    Ray Comfort interviewed a handful of ignorant young people who didn't even know who Adolf Hitler was. If he had convinced legitimate medical professionals, such as physicians and midwives (people who understand fetal development and see first hand the effects of abortion), that abortion can be appropriately compared to the extermination of the Jews during the holocaust ... then his video may have had a valid point.

  • Jeremy Hughes

    I see that someone has literally no understanding of Fetus development. LMAO, not surprising actually.

  • robertallen1

    It's enough to make a good woman want to miscarry.

  • Zoidberg 1201

    Why is it that when someone in America has a foreign accent they're subbed, when Americans sound like they have a gobstoper in their mouth when they speak?

  • robertallen1

    I don't understand the question. Do you mean dubbed? However, the second part remains a mystery.

  • robertallen1

    Nazi is simply a contraction of Nationalsozialist, sometimes referred to as Sozi. Ashkenazi refers to Jews living in the Rhineland area as opposed to Sephardic Jews who were from Spain. The two words have no etymological relation at all. This is not Basic History 101, it's Basic Ignorance 101, as is the rest of your post.

  • Achems_Razor

    So funny, he probably means throat or nose bot...(cephenemyia) usually found in deer, moose etc: do not know how it could possibly migrate to humans though, lol

    Actually just read there have been cases of botfly squirting larvae into human eyes, the larvae have barbs which have to be surgically removed from the pupil.
    Anyway this is off topic.

  • robertallen1

    If you can make heads or tails of it, you're a better man than I?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100004047744019 Sham America

    Hitler killed by the intention of hate for specific type of race and this is racism, he killed people who are already on this earth and alive not just whom their heart is beating. Hitler killed with his full intention, but when moms get abortion it is like they are asking for a chance to live! The raped mom for example has 9 months to figure out how to find a job to support this child, where to live with this child giving the consideration that one: she is pregnant and her body is not as strong while pregnancy and two her family and friends might not support her because of the "shameful" thing she has committed which is to sleep with a man and have sex without birth control. Keeping the baby in the mom's womb is like killing the mother! killing all of her opportunities, rights, and privileges especially if this mother was a 16 years old teenager! Abortion is harsh, but it is a decision to make to save a young girl's life. because being a mother WILL change your life forever!!!!
    one more thought, after learning about science and molecular biology I have learned that through common sense and logic there is no supernatural power than could exist in this world. People thounsands of years ago had so many questions and gaps about the universe and the idea of God pretty much answered all of their questions (just like asking where does human come to exist, it's very overwhelming question if you ask for someone thousands of years ago) but now with modern science we have these questions mostly answered and understood. we understand the world around us now! so the idea of God and supernatural power does not have a place here in 2012! .. besides morality has nothing to do with religion since religion teaches nothing but massive murders (just like Hitler, if you don't believe me look through history of Islam and Christianity) rape and disrespect of human rights and especially women rights (see how women are conveyed in the bible and Quran! it's a shame!) so it was kind of funny for the editor to add a little about the fantasies of hell fire and heaven on there as well! :)

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100004047744019 Sham America

    I agree, he seemed to be questioning certain kind of audiences rather than people who are much more aware of the situation. for example Comfort didn't show the answer of the the old man who said he lost his mother, father, grandmother, and aunt in WWII about abortion! next time he really need to interview people from far more different scope like psychiatrists, scientists (btw %93 of scientists are atheists), as well as college students and street punks like what I see in this video. I mentioned the scientists because their view about fire and heaven is not as primitive as these students. These professional people understand the meaning of common sense and healthy psychology and can see how the supernatural power idea contradict these aspects of life.

  • robertallen1

    He's not about to. They would show him up for the phoney that he is.

  • Daniel Ray

    The Nazis are knocking on my door, and I am hiding Jews in my attic. If I lie, will I still go to hell??

  • Daniel Ray

    The interviewer seemed perfectly fine with aborting baby Hitler, right? Would that be considered a justifiable abortion? Wowzers! such moral dilemmas!!

  • Chandon_cortez

    oh god, an aussie id**t interviewing the most uneducated kids ever. hitler killing jews for reasons of personal hate at a time when being primitive was the way of the world and comparing it to abortion, what a r*tarded spin on things. unborn children are unaware of life period. that's where i personally draw the line. nobody ever wonders about the conditions that child is being born into and asking a bunch of spoiled dopeheads by the beachfront is not good enough to make point with these stupid holocaust comparisons...

  • Seashellsandmermaids1

    you have no understanding of the scriptures.

  • robertallen1

    If you think so, why didn't you try to refute Jane_Lane's points?

  • Zoidberg 1201

    Crystals grow too, you need a better definition of alive.

  • http://www.facebook.com/miranda.duncan.3 Miranda Duncan

    I am confused. Is this about abortion or the holocaust? It seems silly to me that you compare abortion to the holocaust. It is comparing apples to oranges.

  • http://www.facebook.com/miranda.duncan.3 Miranda Duncan

    I spent thirty minutes trying to get to the point of this documentary. The Holocaust was a practicing geneocide. Abortion is about the free of women to dicate their lives and bodies. These are two different things. If this documentary was a SAT essay, it would recieve a low grade because it does not connect direct how the Holocaust and abortion on similar.

  • http://www.facebook.com/miranda.duncan.3 Miranda Duncan

    Agreed, he spend the last minute trying to trick people's emotions instead of their logical. Showing people baby pictures and starving Jewish people is going to make people emotionally connected to the his subject. I think this is the reason why he ask people if they would kill Hilter.

  • Nwttp

    Well if this guy thinks everyone is a liar, he has no reason to logically believe in god considering his only proof is a bunch of liars told him god wrote a book. I would love some fool like this to try and come use his dumb logic at me. I didn't hate him too much until that god bul****t at the end.

  • Ciérrabella

    -Abortion. Its a woman's choice full stop. ...I really doubt that most women would want a child from their rapist! All you would think about is where that kid came from and through no fault of your own feel resentment, and wish the kid never existed. POOR KID if that's its future life...*crying , mummy hates me.
    god! this guy is a r*tard, he's taking the holocaust & guilting people into feeling bad about abortion *sighhhh, WTF. neither topics have aNything to do with each other at all.
    kudos on your MANIPULATION skills. Well done d**che bag.

  • kizit

    You simply can not compare Abortion to the Holocaust.

    He is comparing the hatred & evil of one man, to women's rights.

    Perhaps he should go visit some abused & neglected children that were unfortunate enough to be born to mothers who did not want them.

    I have one question for Ray.

    Do you believe Hitlers mother should of had an Abortion?

  • http://twitter.com/prologuetonow AMFM

    He's inciting trouble by asking people to visit "Abortion Clinics." Nowhere was mentioned the wire hangers that women used to abort their pregnancies prior to 1973. If he's so concerned with life, is he campaigning against war? How about the way the Palestinians are treated by Israel? How many children has he adopted or of those in his congregation? How much money has he given to the poor so by chance someone will be able to afford the child, as was part of the conversation here? How about free contraception to high school students to avoid pregnancy? More openness about sex. How about talking about a culture that markets sex to its youth to sell everything from music to underwear? How about the gun culture we have here in the USA? Twenty 6 and 7 year olds killed with a semi-automatic weapon. Why do I never hear outrage about these other issues from the Right-to-Life crowd?

  • america111

    Abortion = taking of inocent life
    Holocaust= taking of inocent life
    Get it?

    And for all who claim to save the "mother', have you heard about ADOPTION?

  • robertallen1

    You're the one who doesn't get it. If you're saying that a woman who becomes impregnated through rape must bear the child, you are despicable excuse for a human being.

    Get it?

  • america111

    Sorry YOU don't understand what a human being is. So you are raped, something violent is done to you, and you turn around and don't rape, but take the life out of that inocent baby? A decent human being is more than to look at the tip ofyour nose, look beyond your pain - to stop the act of violence done to you. Your name calling proves you don't have valid arguments. Get it?

  • robertallen1

    So a woman becomes pregnant through no fault of her own and she has to suffer for it? No goddam way!

    Who the hell do you think you are to be passing judgment on others in personal matters such as the decision to bear a child?

    You are beneath contempt. Get it!

  • Kateye70

    Are you male or female?

    I'm guessing male.

    Women know, on every level of knowledge there is, what a difficult subject this is, and that no matter what her decision is--*her* body, *her* decision--it will impact the rest of her life one way or another.

    Men get to spit and leave, as it were.

  • robertallen1

    If america111 is a woman, she's needs to be impregnated by rape, if a man, he needs to be castrated.

  • america111

    Rape is very difficult to bear. So is killing. If you don't think so, go tell that to the mothers of all the innocent children killed recently in the school shooting.
    That little human baby is NOT her body. And yes, that will impact her the rest of her life, that is why comiting murder should NOT add to her pain.

  • over the edge

    america111
    how dare you compare abortion to the holocaust or the recent school shooting. your "Appeal to emotion" is not only easy to spot but sad. nobody is killing babies when they have an abortion. you are either ignorant or deliberately twisting the facts.

  • robertallen1

    It's better than having the goddam child. If you're a woman, you're an insult to your sex. If you're a man, you deserve to be castrated.

    One way or the other, if I were a woman and I were forced to bear a fetus which had been the product of rape, I would miscarry on your doorstep.

    Don't insult the intelligence by comparing what happened in Connecticut with abortion and claiming that the fetus is not her body when in fact it is merely a parasite living temporarily inside it.

    What women do with their lives and their fetuses is none of your goddam business and don't try to make it so.

  • america111

    I dare, even if you dont like it. What it is, IS. Your screaming, calling names , changing names (baby for fetus), won't change the fact you are taking the life out of that human being. I don't appeal to emotion, just call it in all those cases like it is. Incidentally, you were once that small (so, you are NOT a human being now?) and it is my business to defend the helpless.

  • robertallen1

    Once again, if you're a woman, you're an insult to your sex and if you're a man you deserve to be castrated. So mind your own goddam business!

  • america111

    And you have just made the point of the movie comparing the holocaust to abortion. Hitler had to de-humanize the Jews in order to justify killing them. He called them sub-human beings.

    Abortion does the same: it has to de-humanize the baby by calling it a parasite, a fetus, or a collection of cells. The very act of doing that labels the baby as sub-human in order to justifiably dispose of the baby.

    The genocide in Rwanda happened under the mantra: crush all the cockroaches. Hitler portrayed the Jews as an evil plague in their country. Abortionists call the baby a parasite. Once you dehumanize someone, you can justify their killing.

  • robertallen1

    No, you're the one who compares the holocaust to abortion. One way or the other, abortion is better than bringing an unwanted child into the world--and yes a fetus is biologically a parasite and not human until it comes out of the womb.

    At least, we can all be thankful that you're in no position to do anything.

    If you're a woman, I'd love to see you go through a horrible, life- threatening delivery after you have been raped.

  • over the edge

    america111
    where was i "screaming" ? and yes calling a fetus a baby is ignorant

    do you have anything to back up your claims ? other than the appeals to emotion or the violation of "goodwin's law"?

    please show me the facts to back up "That little human baby is NOT her body" ?

  • robertallen1

    The major difference is that In the Nazi regime, the government made the decision to liquidate, not the individual.

  • cynicfrombc

    What america111 says is true. Pro-abortionists love to use the strategies of intimidation and name-calling which goes to show how shallow or non-existent their arguments actually are. It's very tragic to witness people vehemently defending their right to kill. The darkness in America is nearly complete.

  • robertallen1

    What America111 says is as idiotic as what you write. It's pathetic to witness those like you who in their ignorance of the world about them feel that everyone's business is theirs and try to dictate accordingly. Better an abortion than an unwanted child.

  • cynicfrombc

    As usual with abortion-promoters, you don't deal with real arguments. You just lash out in anger. Maybe you are right: better an abortion than angry people like you.

  • robertallen1

    Better an abortion that a despicable, meddling piece of garbage like you.

  • cynicfrombc

    You know what, sir, you actually need therapy.

  • robertallen1

    You know what, you need to mind your own business.

  • cynicfrombc

    You know, I actually do think a lot of stuff that happens in society is my business. I consider it my business to try to prevent violence, abuse and murder in whatever way possible. This is not meddling. This is the duty of a citizen.

  • robertallen1

    Abortion is a matter of individual choice, the woman's. So once again, mind your own goddam business.

  • cynicfrombc

    I think that exposing the fallacies of pro-abortionists is also a matter of individual choice, that of the pro-lifer. So I won't cease to challenge you and your ilk. You all have blood on your hands. And that is my business since your actions affect the kind of society in which I live.

  • over the edge

    cynicfrombc
    who here claimed to be "pro-abortionists" ? just like the other poster you twist words to invoke an emotional response.

    "As usual with abortion-promoters, you don't deal with real arguments" then present one and i will give agreement/argument based on your statement

  • robertallen1

    It's either a sanitary medical facility or a coat hanger, but one way or the other you are not going to prevent women from obtaining abortions--and it is their right to do so. Once again, better an abortion than an unwanted child.

    You are no more than an obnoxious meddler who wants to dictate to others--well you can't.

    P.S. I have no blood on my hands which goes to show what an ignorant and vile piece of trash you are.

  • cynicfrombc

    "Robertallen" is "pro-abortionist" in the sense that he allows for and defends the right to end pre-born human life through violent means. He may personally regret abortion but he still defends it vigorously and aggressively. That makes him "pro-abortionist."

  • cynicfrombc

    As I said, sir, what you call meddling, I call service to society. It's ridiculous to call abortion simply a "personal choice." It's much more than that. It's a societal choice and it affects the whole of society. As for who really is ready for the garbage bin, why don't we allow history to judge that question.

  • over the edge

    cynicfrombc
    again twisting of words. who calls a fetus a " pre-born human " if not to invoke an emotional response? and where did he claim to require "violent means." ? i cannot speak for robertallen1 but for myself i do not claim to know/understand all the underlying circumstances that lead a woman to choose to have an abortion. therefore i will not force my opinion upon them. again what is your best non emotional (factual) argument for deciding what another person does with their own body? please provide facts to back up arguments. if they are medical please provide the peer reviewed evidence if it is a legal issue please provide court decisions, if it is an opinion state it as such. if it is based in some religion please understand that many do not believe

  • cynicfrombc

    Candidly, a fetus is a "pre-born human." That's not really a matter of debate. Genetically and biologically, it's an obvious fact. As for the expression "violent means," all abortion is violent. You should look at some pictures of what happens to these pre-born humans.

  • over the edge

    cynicfrombc
    so no factual arguments?

  • robertallen1

    It's the woman's choice, not yours.

  • cynicfrombc

    You ask me to provide "factual arguments" for deciding what another person does with her body. I'm not interested in providing such evidence. I am very interested in providing evidence for deciding what we do with the bodies of pre-born humans.

  • robertallen1

    So forcing a woman to have an unwanted child is a service to society. Whether you like it or not, it is a matter of choice and there's nothing you can do about it.

    You really are despicable.

  • robertallen1

    I've seen them just as I've seen a lot of other things equally as gory. So don't try that tack. It only makes you more despicable than you are, if that's possible.

  • robertallen1

    You're right I'm pro abortionist and I'm also anti everything you seem to stand for in all your ignorance.

  • robertallen1

    In other words, you can't argue facts because they are against you.

    As for the answer to your quesion: trash them along with those like you.

  • Emanouel

    "nobody is killing babies when they have an abortion"

    What a lie.
    Who are you to make such a statement?
    Be thankful your own mother did not feel the same way about abortion as you do.

  • cynicfrombc

    Every time I try to discuss things with pro-abortionists, it ends like this: with the abortionist saying hateful things. In my mind, therefore, a pro-abortion stance is therefore inextricably linked with hatred. There is no light in you but only darkness. And it is very deep, indeed. I won't be responding any longer to anything you say.

  • cynicfrombc

    In your blind anger and rage, you are unable to understand a very simple logical distinction.

  • over the edge

    Emanouel
    please do not call me a liar.
    i do not believe i have to do this but here is the definition
    "A very young child, esp. one newly or recently born.".

    "Be thankful your own mother did not feel the same way about abortion as you do." and how do i feel about it as you seem to know? you do not know my mother or how she feels about abortion so please do not bring her up

  • robertallen1

    You're right it's hatred. For conceited, ignorant id*ots like you who try to impose their version of morality on thers.

  • cynicfrombc

    It belongs to the nature of genuine moral convictions that a person wants to share them. You also are trying to share you moral conviction that abortion is just fine. In fact, you share this moral conviction aggressively and seek to impose it on all of society. For example, in Canada, where I live, my tax dollars are used to fund abortions to the tune of many millions of dollars per year. So a pro-abortion morality is being shoved down my throat by the likes of you. My point? Morality is inescapably public. There is no such thing as a purely private morality. Our collective moral choices create a society and that's why abortion is not just a private choice between a woman and her doctor. It's a private choice affecting the women, the pre-born child and the whole of society. In closing, I think your anger and rage is also the product of a pro-abortion society. You are a very, very messed up human.

  • robertallen1

    A pro-abortion mentality is better than anything you have to offer, for it allows choice and militates against dictation by troglodytes like you who set themselves up as arbiters of morality. The tax dollars used to fund abortions in Canada are well spent as are whatever private funds are used--and the beauty is that you can't do anything about it except stew.

    Once again, what I do is none of your goddam business and sticking your nose where it doesn't belong makes you a very messed up piece of garbage.

  • cynicfrombc

    See above

  • cynicfrombc

    You, sir, are as blind as a bat. You say that you don't think I should impose my morality on others but then you turn around and happily endorse society imposing its morality on me even by way of tax dollars. You think you're a free-thinking man but you're actually a highly prejudiced individual. If I lived near you, I'd be arming myself in case your hatred would spill over in acts of violence.

  • robertallen1

    On October 28, 2012 Savita Halappanavar died at Galway Hospital in Ireland due to vermin such as you.

    Get this straight, a pro-abortion society such as that in your country does not dictate abortion, but makes it a matter of individual choice which does not in the least affect those of your persuasion. Thus, you have nothing to complain about except your aborted ability to impose your form of morality on others.

    If you lived near me and tried to stick your nose into my business, I would make your life unbearable.

  • cynicfrombc

    You are an irrational man and very, very angry. I would say you are a dangerous person. You are driven by hatred, not logic. You are concerned about Savita. I don't know about her situation but I'll guess she died of a botched abortion. That's really sad and I can weep about those situations. However, you should be weeping about the women who die in clinics when an abortion goes wrong. You should be weeping for the women who live with life-long guilt about taking the life of a little one. You should weep about the nearly full-term babies killed in their mother's womb. You should weep about the partial-birth abortions happening in Canada and other places of the world. You should weep about the kind of society we have become, one in which more than a million women make the choice to terminate a pregnancy (that's in the. U.S.). You should weep about a culture in which abortion has become a a form of birth control. You should weep about the loss of human dignity and the degradation of values that abortion has brought to our world. And there is much more you should be weeping about, including your own destructive rage.

  • robertallen1

    Why didn't you read up on Savita Halappanavar before keyboarding your idiotic and patently ignorant response--and no, she did not die of a botched abortion.

    "You ask me to provide 'factual arguments' for deciding what another person does with her body. I'm not interested in providing such evidence." So with a statement like that, don't you speak to me about not being driven by logic and don't you dare dictate to me as to what I should be weeping at--and, by the way, the more birth control, the better, even if more than a million women in the U.S. choose to terminate a pregnancy (and just where does this figure come from?).

    Abortion has been recorded as far back as 2,700 BC in ancient China and 1,550 BC in ancient Egypt (1,550 BC). So just which values have been degraded by the practice and how has this resulted in the loss of what you consider human dignity?

    Your ignorance, stupidity and desire to dictate in matters which are none of your business make you potentially dangerous and at least one can take comfort that Canadian law holds you and those of your clades firmly in check.

  • cynicfrombc

    Your thoughts and your conduct are a humbling monument to the evil darkness residing in the human heart.

  • cynicfrombc

    You are beyond the hope of logic. You are driven not by logic but by dark hatred. You should be watched. Every who knows a "robertallen" should be concerned.

  • cynicfrombc

    You can't make simple logical distinctions like that between a)a woman's body and b)the body of her baby. You conflate the two and act as if they are one and the same.

  • cynicfrombc

    I don't have time to read up on every bit of news that comes my way (though I do read four or five newspapers a day as well numerous periodicals on both the right, the left and the center not to mention about ten of the best know blogs of political analysts). I also have multiple degrees from a large Canadian university. So I'm not quite as ignorant as you think. I've noticed over the years that progressive types like you imagine that everyone who disagrees with you is stupid. I'm pretty sure that in a moderated debate I would make mincemeat out of you. That's how it usually ends for pro-abortionists in debate. When they can't just yell and scream and insult their opponent but actually have to deal with real biological facts, they always lose the debate.

  • robertallen1

    As you are not drive by facts, you are not driven by logic. At least you don't need to be watched. The laws of Canada have taken care of that.

  • robertallen1

    Until that baby is delivered, they are.

  • cynicfrombc

    Trust me, I dare. I dare to tell you what I think to be the truth. I dare to expose your hatred and anger. I dare to defend those who can't defend themselves. I dare to go against political correct, progressive thinking. I dare to attack the idols of our time. No amount of intimidation will ever shut me up. It must be hard for you to accept that there will always be people like me ready to be in your face and aggravate you. It must be hard to believe that a significant majority of Americans do not believe in abortion on demand. It's a tough life for a God-hating, baby-killing abortionist.

  • cynicfrombc

    This statement shows that you are led by ideology and not actual facts.

  • robertallen1

    So you have multiple degrees from a large Canadian university. I notice that you have omitted the subjects of the degrees as well as the name of the university (and by the way, when it comes to an institution of higher learning, size doesn't count.)

    In addition, if you actually read four or five newspapers a day, you would have come across an account of Savita Halappanavar which would have obviated the need for you to post a silly response and misdirected guess at her fate. In short, this makes you a liar.

    And indeed you are stupid, not because you disagree with me, but because in place of facts (which, by your own admission, you contemn), you flout your questionable education (leaving out both subjects and name of institution), you term me a progressive (whatever that is) without knowing much about me, you leave yourself open to exposure by enumerating your daily reading material and yet admit to knowing nothing about Savita Halappanavar and in a moment of brainless self-aggrandizement, speculate on the outcome (obviously in your favor) of a hypothetical debate between us. Yes, you are stupid, but held in check by the laws which redound to the benefit of your country.

  • robertallen1

    What if a woman gets impregnated through rape or her delivery is likely to be a life-threatening situation? I'll bet you would still expect her to go through the ordeal no matter what. Talk about the evil darkness residing in the human heart.

  • robertallen1

    " . . . a significant majority of Americans do not believe in abortion on demand." Where are your statistics?

    So now you bring your god whose existence you cannot prove and whom you know nothing about into the matter, how pathetic.

    People like you don't aggravate [sic] me, they disgust me.

  • cynicfrombc

    No I wouldn't.

  • robertallen1

    "You ask me to provide 'factual arguments' for deciding what another person does with her body. I'm not interested in providing such evidence."

    So now you bring up the concept of facts--well, here's a fact which you can find in any book on obstetrics: the fetus is merely a parasite living in the womb.

  • robertallen1

    So you would permit abortions in cases of rape or danger to the potential mother, is that correct? If so, then why not in other situations, such as an unwanted pregnancy--people do like to screw, you know--sometimes condoms fail you know?

  • cynicfrombc

    In reality, the fetus is a genetically and biologically discrete human being. Those are the facts. Yes, it is a very tiny, weak and defenseless human being which will remain dependent for a long time on its mother or other caregivers but it is most definitely a genetically and biologically discrete entity.

  • cynicfrombc

    I am just reacting to your words. You clearly don't believe in God. So why get mad when I say that you are god-less.

  • cynicfrombc

    I mentioned my university background only because pro-abortion intellectuals love to portray pro-lifers as uneducated, unsophisticated fundamentalist buffoons. In fact, I don't value my university education very highly. Universities today don't really educate, as I found out for myself. Instead, they indoctrinate. They allow for and promote only one point of view on a whole range of very complex moral and philosophical questions. Nonetheless, I worked my way through to a graduate degree and that should tell you that my mind is at least operational. Pro-lifers are not ignorant of biology, ethics or philosophy. We know the same facts known to pro-abortionists.

    As for self-aggrandizement, no, that's not really the point. I'm a tolerably good debater but my point is that when pro-abortionists are forced to behave civilly and to actually engage with real biological and genetic facts, they invariably lose the argument, if not in their own evaluation, then certainly in the minds of the audience.

    As for not remembering Savita's case, that was a pity, but I have now refreshed my memory. I don't think there is any support whatever for your cause in her case.

  • robertallen1

    So is the appendix.

  • robertallen1

    You don't what I believe in that respect and you're neither intelligent nor educated enough to be jumping to any conclusions.

  • cynicfrombc

    I think your response here brings out the underlying issue behind the abortion debate. Our society has undergone a sexual revolution since the 1960's. People have lost any sense of sexual restraint. When they hear pro-lifers defending the unborn, they take it as an assault on their sexual freedom. And they are probably right. Being consistently pro-life means embracing an ethic of sexual self-control. Societies which don't inculcate sexual self-control simply don't last very long. However, as this is a new topic, I think I will sign off at this point. After all, it's Sunday and I need to have some rest.

  • cynicfrombc

    No, it`s not. It has the same DNA as the rest of the body.

  • cynicfrombc

    Don`t be ridiculous. Of course you don`t believe in God. In an earlier entry, you heaped scorn on people believe in a god whose existence they cannot prove. Concluding that you are not a God-believer isn`t a matter of my intelligence or education. It`s just the implication of your own words.

  • robertallen1

    You still leave out your alleged subjects of study and the name of the institute you allegedly attended. I wonder why. Your pissant excuse simply does not hold water.

    "You ask me to provide 'factual arguments' for deciding what another person does with her body. I'm not interested in providing such evidence." In light of this, you have no business even mentioning facts.

    So you've now refreshed your memory in Savita's case. By your own admission, you never had any to begin with. So all you're trying to do is cover up for your initial lie about reading four or five newspapers a day with a nebulous "I don't think there is any support whatever for your cause in her case" which shows that you haven't read about the matter and are thus compounding one lie with another. You're a fraud!

  • cynicfrombc

    You my dear friend are an ignorant ass. If ever there was a fraud in the world, you are it. I`ll get back to your sorry excuse for rational discourse tomorrow.

  • robertallen1

    So now ignorant, conceited little you not only wants to prohibit abortion (except perhaps in certain cases. I really can't tell because you haven't answered my question directly), but desires to regulate people's sex lives as well.

    "Societies which don't inculcate sexual self-control simply don't last very long." The Sumerian society lasted 2,500 years; the Greek, 1,400, the Roman, 1000 and there were no sexual self-controls inclucated in any of them. Obviously history was not one of your fields of study.

    Once again, you're a fraud, but a least held in check by the laws of your fine country.

  • robertallen1

    So what?

  • robertallen1

    You still don't know what I believe--and don't flatter yourself that you do.

  • robertallen1

    You obviously know nothing about history, but assert "Societies which don't inculcate sexual self-control simply don't last very long."

    Oblivious to the written going back 5,000 years, you bemoan "the loss of human dignity and the degradation of values that abortion has brought to our world." You cannot relate what these values are, much less how they apply to what you view as the loss of human dignity.

    You claim a college education, but repeatedly fail to provide the subjects of study or the name of the institution, offering the pissant excuse that you didn't value your education very highly. So why bother to mention your college education in the first place.

    Depsite your contention that you read four or five newspapers a day, you first state that you know nothing about Savita's case, then claim you recollect it, then fail to comment on it in any meaningful way. Face it, you never read about it in the first place. This makes you a liar.

    "You ask me to provide 'factual arguments' for deciding what another person does with her body. I'm not interested in providing such evidence." This statement says a lot about the level of your intellection and more about your desire to dictate to others merely on the basis your version of morality.

    You claim " . . . a significant majority [whatever that's supposed to mean] of Americans do not believe in abortion on demand" and yet fail to provide any statistics to back this up.

    Now, who's the ignorant fraud?

  • Achems_Razor

    God-less?? I am, when "your" foaming at the mouth psychotic Gods say bless the ones who take and smash the little ones against the rocks...Psalm 137:9

  • robertallen1

    Claiming that Savita Halappanavar's case is not relevant is simply dishonest. She could have been saved but for garbage like you.

  • http://1iotofoto.wix.com/otofoto oQ

    calling people garbage is not very holidayish..and is clearly against the rules on TDF.
    You know the rules, i've noticed how you flag them to the moderator whenever you get it coming your way.
    1i

  • Achems_Razor

    Yes, against the rules, but if you read the posts @cynicfrombc: is not that holidayish. Takes two to tango.

  • http://1iotofoto.wix.com/otofoto oQ

    You are probably right, i'll trust you on that as i have no interest in reading Cynicfrombc's posts.On the other hand Robert being our number 1 should know to act above them all.
    Takes two to tango...you are right there too...tango tango.
    <|::|>
    1i

  • cynicfrombc

    Actually, it`s becoming more and more apparent that you are an ignorant, self-serving fool. Your portrayal of various civilizations is highly inaccurate as just a little study would show you. Maybe you`ve imbibed just a bit too much of Margaret Mead`s nonsense. If you have an open mind, read ``Sex and Culture`` by J.D. Unwin.

  • cynicfrombc

    You ignorant question here speaks volumes.

  • cynicfrombc

    Of course I don`t your entire worldview. But you make mockery of what you thought was my belief in God. Fair conclusion: you`re not a Christian theist.

  • robertallen1

    And just where were these inculcated sexual controls in the Sumerian, Roman and Greek societies? You don't know what you're talking about.

    One way or the other, when it comes to the private affairs of others, such as abortion, mind your own goddam business.

  • robertallen1

    You're the one who irrelevantly brought "God" into the picture. You take the consequences.

  • cynicfrombc

    You assert many things here but can't prove any of them. You show a knack for taking my words out of context and so flagrantly that I am forced to conclude it's purposeful. You are full of arrogant posturing. What's really frightening is that you seem to believe you're intellectually quite sharp.

  • cynicfrombc

    As a pro-abortionist, you shouldn't have any problem with that statement. Every day, little kids are cut to pieces in the womb and you don't have a problem with that. As for the passage in question, there's this little thing called hermeneutics. You should learn about it.

  • cynicfrombc

    Complete nonsense. I tried to post a few links earlier but disqus wouldn't let me. Just google "national post" and "Savita" and you should find a different perspective.

  • cynicfrombc

    So when people say things you don't agree with (reflecting, however, majority opinion in America), that gives you a right to go on a rampage of abusive language? You think you're some kind of a deity, I think.

  • cynicfrombc

    I do know what I'm talking about. I've read all the Greek and Roman classics. I've written a paper for an upper level course on the sexual ethics of late Roman society. You are just passing off as learning what you have learned from your progressive mentors.

  • cynicfrombc

    Oh I can take the consequences, no worries. It doesn't look like you can, however, when you stupidly deny the implications of your earlier mockery of God. Of course I know that you are not a Christian theist.

  • robertallen1

    J. D. Unwin. Isn't he the id*ot who claimed that unless a civilization were monogamous, it would crumble, thereby placing his ideology before his scholarship? Unlike Margaret Mead, Unwin can hardly be considered a mainstream anthropologist (the only type of anthropologist that counts). Again, what about the Sumerians, the Greeks and the Romans?

    It's becoming apparent that you are more concerned with being able to stick your nose into other people's business than with anything else. As such, you're disgusting.

  • robertallen1

    You haven't been able to refute anything I have said, much less answer any questions such as where your statistics regarding the United States come from. Therefore, you're the mental midget.

    Now provide me with one example where I took your words out of context.

  • robertallen1

    Just what does hermeneutics have to do with a woman's right to an abortion?

  • cynicfrombc

    It has to do with your remarks about an ancient song.

  • robertallen1

    Once again, Savita could have been saved, but for garbage like you. Her death makes you and and everything you stand mean, low, despicable and subhuman.

  • robertallen1

    Put the shoe on the right foot, it's you who regards himself as some kind of deity who can dictate his version of morality to others.

    P.S. For the fourth time, you haven't provided the statistics to prove majority opinion in America.

  • cynicfrombc

    Actually, you haven't refuted anything I've said. You couldn't deal with even the basic point that a human baby or fetus is a genetically and biologically discrete entity.

    As for words taken out of context, here's an example. I wrote: "You ask me to provide 'factual arguments' for deciding what another person does with her body. I'm not interested in providing such evidence." You made a lot of hay out of this but couldn't even see the relatively clear point I was making which is that abortion is not a clear cut matter of a woman deciding what she can do with her body; there's another factor involved which happens to be another human being.

    As for statistics, don't be so lazy. Verifying the number of abortions in the U.S. on an annual basis is easy to do. Just look it up. In Canada, the number is about 100,000 per year. In the U.S., it's about a million.

  • cynicfrombc

    Again, you know how to use google. There isn't a single sector of American society with a majority viewpoint that abortion should be legal under all circumstances.

  • robertallen1

    What a stunning refutation. My teachers were all wrong because they were allegedly progressives.

    P.S. I've read all the Greek and Roman classics too and a lot more.

  • robertallen1

    Once again, you're the one who irrelevantly brought in "god." This clearly shows the level of the your intellect.

  • cynicfrombc

    Once again, you're evading my point. Yes, I mentioned God but you reacted and your reaction is the current point of dispute. You deny that your reaction gives clear evidence of your disavowal of Christian theism. That's nonsense.

  • robertallen1

    That's not a quote out of context; that is an entire quote. Whether you like it or not, the laws and the courts in both Canada and the United States have made it a clear cut matter of a woman deciding what she can do with her body--and that is all that counts.

    You made the claims regarding the number of U.S. women obtaining abortions (not that it really matters as far as the issue of a woman's right to obtain an abortion is concerned) and the percentage of U.S. citizens against abortion, it's up to you to provide the sources.

    Once again, keep your nose out of the bedroom.

  • cynicfrombc

    As a matter of fact, progressive intellectuals are not trustworthy guides in any discipline. They all have an ax to grind and therefore their research is invariably tendentious. Research from late modernism is usually of a superior quality in every discipline.

  • robertallen1

    You made the assertion. You provide the proof.

  • cynicfrombc

    This is not research oriented discussion forum, so don't be a jerk.

  • cynicfrombc

    Yes, it's a quote but you used it for evidence of a point of view which ignores the context of the quote. Hence, you are abusing my words.

  • robertallen1

    Wonder why you irrelevantly mentioned "god." Is it to prove some non-existent point?

  • cynicfrombc

    Still evading ...

  • robertallen1

    Where is your proof? bald-faced assertions don't cut it.

    By the way, I still have no idea what a progressive intellectual is.

  • robertallen1

    Whether or not this is a research-oriented forum is as irrelevant as bringing in "god." Once again, you made the assertion, you provide the proof.

    And again, keep your nose out of the bedroom where it doesn't belong.

  • cynicfrombc

    Just for the record, I don't think the state has any business in what happens in bedrooms. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be inculcating sexual self-control as a virtue. If you don't think sexual self-control is a virtue, then you are, frankly, a dangerous fool.

  • cynicfrombc

    Just wondering: would you like a public, moderated debate? That way we can get past the name-calling etc. and keep the real issue in focus: do pre-born children have the right of protection from those who wish to kill them?

  • robertallen1

    "You ask me to provide 'factual arguments' for deciding what another person does with her body. I'm not interested in providing such evidence. I am very interested in providing evidence for deciding what we do with the bodies of pre-born humans." This does not change anything.

    And once again, whether you like it or not, law and courts in both Canada and the U.S. have made it abortion a clear-cut matter of a woman deciding what she can do with her body. And by the way, a fetus becomes a human being only after it leaves the womb the same way an egg becomes a chicken only after it is hatched.

  • robertallen1

    And the state has no business in what happens to fetuses either.

    By sexual self-control, just what do you mean?

  • cynicfrombc

    You make an assertion. On what ground is a pre-born child not a human at nine months of gestation but suddenly a real human a few hours later? That's not a rational opinion. On both sides of birth, we have a biologically and genetically discrete individual with brain waves and a heart beat and ability to feel pleasure and pain but you arbitrarily decide that the one is human and the other is not. That's not logic or science speaking but ideology. And if that ideology is reflected in the laws of some nations, then the law is an ass.

  • cynicfrombc

    Why don't you tell me what your concept of sexual "self-control" is when you heap scorn upon it?

  • robertallen1

    No need to. The laws and courts in Canada and the United States have pretty much settled this point--and you can do nothing about it.

  • robertallen1

    It's better than bringing an unwanted child into the world.

    Now mind your own business and let those directly concerned decide for themselves just as the law allows them to.

  • robertallen1

    You're the one who brought up the inclucation of sexual self-control, it's up to you to define or delineate it.

  • cynicfrombc

    Some courts have made decisions rationalizing the most heinous evil. It's dangerous to allow courts to the final arbiters of morality. You should know. After all you're an American. In a different context, I wouldn't be surprised to find you condoning civil disobedience.

  • cynicfrombc

    Notice again that you have not responded to the central point. You seem to be just playing games.

  • robertallen1

    The courts are not the final arbiters of morality, but rather of laws touching on what some consider morality. This is a marked difference. One way or the other, it is a woman's legal right to decide whether she will or will not bring her fetus to full term and the beauty of it is that there's nothing you or those of your ilk can do about it. So mind your own business.

  • robertallen1

    That is the central point, letting women make the decision as to whether to abort without interference from those like you.

  • cynicfrombc

    So what about courts defending segregation and systemic discrimination against black people? History shows how evil those courts really are. I suspect the same is true in regard to abortion laws.

  • robertallen1

    Red herring. The law and the courts in the U.S. and Canada have determined that women have the right to choose whether to bring their pregnancy full term and that's all that matters. You and those like you are neutralized and rightly so.

    Once again, keep your nose out of other people's business.

  • cynicfrombc

    I don't think you know what a red herring actually is.

  • cynicfrombc

    So you just know what the central point is! Amazing how you give your self this power! Your assuming rather than arguing an answer to what is actually the central point of the whole debate.

  • robertallen1

    Your statement about the courts' defending segregation and systemic discrimination have nothing to do with abortion and using these decisions as the basis for discrediting judicial decisions regarding abortion constitutes an attempt to mislead and thus is a red herring.

    P.S. You're not intelligent enough for me to care what you think.

    P.P.S. Keep your nose out of other people's business.

  • cynicfrombc

    A mere child could see that you're not being fair. You argued that court decisions about abortion more or less settled the matter. I pointed out that courts have often been mistaken about matters of enormous social consequences. You then call this a red herring. You need to go back to logic school.

  • robertallen1

    The central point is letting women decide for themselves without your having any say in their decision, thus forcing you and others of your herd to keep what you consider your morality to yourselves and your dirty little noses out of other people's business.

  • cynicfrombc

    Your p.s and p.p.s show how juvenile you actually are.

  • robertallen1

    Mistaken? In whose eyes? And yes, the court decisions as well as the law have more or less settled the matter and neutralized you and those like you who desire to make decisions for others on matters which are none of their business.

  • robertallen1

    As if that's a response.

    Once again, don't stick your nose where it doesn't belong, like in personal decisions regarding abortion. Modern day women can now choose with no interference from you and those like you.

  • cynicfrombc

    Are you saying that the court decisions in support of segregation were just fine? You are despicable in the extreme. Also, it's increasingly obvious that you are lacking intelligence.

  • cynicfrombc

    Yes, it is a real response but you lack the smarts to see it. You are blinded by ideology and rage.

  • robertallen1

    That's not what I'm saying and you know it.

    One way or the other, I don't tell women that they can't have abortions; I say they should decide for themselves. This puts me head and shoulders above you both morally and intellectually.

  • robertallen1

    Obviously it didn't sink in, so once again, don't stick your nose where it doesn't belong, like in personal decisions regarding abortion. Modern day women can now choose with no interference from you and those like you and if that's being blinded by ideology and rage against moral bigots such as you, I'm all for it.

  • cynicfrombc

    Only in your own dreams!

  • robertallen1

    Women, at least in Canada and the U.S., now have the right to choose whether to obtain an abortion. Now, you and your minions want to take away that right and return us once again to the era of coat hangers and shady back rooms. And why? Because it does not comport with YOUR cheap idea of morality.

    You and those like you are every abomination rolled into one.

  • cynicfrombc

    As I've said a lot in this nasty little exchange of opinions, you are avoiding the central question: does a pre-born human deserve the protection of law from those who want to burn it with saline solutions or cut it to pieces with knives? You avoid this question by deciding arbitrarily that in fact pre-born humans are not humans just like courts used to defend the abhorrent notion that blacks were not real people fully deserving of the protection of law. Courts are fallible. Courts have often been wrong. Governments have often been wrong. The worst atrocities in the world have been sanctioned by governments and courts. And the blood of the innocents cries out against you. I've actually seen a hacked apart 8 month fetus. Not easily forgotten. I repeat: the blood of the innocents cries out against you and will not be forgotten. What you have sown, you will reap. More importantly, societies which sow abortion will reap a whirlwind of disorder and decay. In fact, it's already happening. Good night and this time it's final: no more responses from me. I know you'll have one more little diatribe after I sign off to preserve for you the illusion that you have won the victory. If that's the case, we'll chalk that up to pathological self-deception. Anyway, I'm out of here. Maybe I'll check back next year.

  • robertallen1

    What a brilliant refutation!

  • robertallen1

    "And the blood of the innocents cries out against you. . . . I repeat: the blood of the innocents cries out against you and will not be forgotten. What you have sown you will reap." And what about the blood of Savita Halappanavar and others just as innocent who could have been saved, but perished due to and at the hands of garbage like you.

    "And the blood of the innocents cries out against you. . . . I repeat: the blood of the innocents cries out against you and will not be forgotten. What you have sown you will reap." How tawdry, how pinchbeck, how maudlin. When all else fails, try cheap emotion and when that fails, lambaste the laws and the courts--they have been wrong in the past so they must be wrong now because they don't conform to my ideas of morality. Then top it off with a prophetic clincher, "More importantly, societies which sow abortion will reap a whirlwind of disorder and decay. In fact, it's already happening." Not that you actually know this, not that you can actually prove it, but it's always nice to go out in a blaze of glory, however false the glow. Somewhere in the series, don't forget to allude to gory photos of abortions (not that all abortions end this way) and confound the real-live rights of the mother with what you feel should be the rights of the fetus.

    I have not won any victory, but society has, over vile, overarching creeps like you.

  • Emanouel

    "It's better than bringing an unwanted child into the world."

    No doubt that many women who fall pregnant are unfit to be mothers.
    Unwanted children do have a tendency to become crims in later life.

    Still, there is no justification for it- abortion is murder or killing.
    Just curious robertallen1- do you have any kids?

  • robertallen1

    Get off your high horse and read about Savita Halappanavar.

    And yes, there's plenty of justification for abortion.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Pamela-Haken-Sue/1683075426 Pamela Haken- Sue

    thank you for taking a stand for those who cannot speak for themselves

  • robertallen1

    And just who would those be?

  • CultureSeparates

    This doc is a bible basher fear mongering plebs into submission to religion. I can't believe people are so stupid. The problem is not that abortion is legal but that people are so stupid they don't even know who hitler was. Stupid is a very serious disease and is spreading very fast, but there is an extremely effective cure; EDUCATION.

    Abortion should be legal as it is a progressive step full stop, but it is education that makes the difference between a woman having an abortion because she's not in the mood to have a child or because she has learned there will be gross deformities or medical complications down the line.

    Without education there is no critical thinking and without that people just run around being influenced by the last opinion they hear, which is what happened in this documentary. Education is a defence against ignorance and that includes manipulative religious biggots

  • robertallen1

    Absolutely. That's why totalitarian forms of government and religions are against education.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ethan-Radatz/100001678153301 Ethan Radatz

    This docu is a joke. They selected slow people in the beginning and asked them if they knew who Hitler was, knowing they would give a negative response to the question. The concept of Hell is also greatly overstated because the punishment (hellfire and pain for ETERNITY) would never fit the crime (lying, lusting, etc.). The analogy of the Holocaust and abortion is terrible and full of so many holes.

    If you take away choice from women, you'll be taking away their personal freedom. Choice is something that is very important to people, especially the older generations. We choose who we love, we choose what we eat, we choose to drink or not to drink (substance abuse being a negative and extreme case, I'm just talking about social drinking). This is yet another scare tactic documentary with an emotional soundtrack and dead people slideshow.

  • GRUMPY25608

    Mate, do you know the difference between slow and uneducated?????

    If you were to say that Ray Comfort did a bias editing of this doco I would agree, however your statement is as insulting as the doco itself.

    If I was to ask you a question and you didn't know the answer does that make you slow or uneducated in that particular subject.
    I'm sure you would be insulted if I called you slow considering your studying psycholgy at university.

    Why is the freedom of choice more important to the older generation compared to any other???? I find that statement absurd to say the least.

  • Michael Ptacek

    Do we really want to go back to what we had before 1973? When young women used coat hangers to maim themselves or paid a king's ransom to a back alley "doctor" with a dirty knife and as a result of no legal, safe, or cheap alternative many of these young women died either from bleeding to death or from infection. Today there are safe, affordable, sterile abortion clinics widely available. Do we really want to go back to young women bleeding to death? My parents back in the 60's "had to get married" because of me. They had an unhappy marriage, abused me, and I wanted to kill myself all of the time, and have suffered from lifelong clinical depression. I would rather have been aborted. Just as many abortions occurred before abortion was legal, but it was just underground, and many young women died. Furthermore, comparing legalized, voluntary abortion to the holocaust is a terrible insult to the Jewish people. No one is forced to have an abortion in this country. If abortion is against your religion then carry your child to term and then give it up for adoption, but don't try to tell me that I should vote republican in the name of god just so we can make it illegal and drive it underground again which will be to the detriment of public health. You have no right to mix religion with politics. You can't legislate morality. There are many different faiths in this country. Telling me that I am going to hell for whatever is against YOUR religion is not being a good christian. People like this id**t make me ashamed to be a born again christian.

  • robertallen1

    Tell that to one of those goddam Catholics.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ethan-Radatz/100001678153301 Ethan Radatz

    Well, "mate". You didn't read my statements that carefully. And they did select slow people, anyone would agree with me because WWII is Middle School History and High School History. Asking who Hitler is, would be very, VERY easy, rather than asking them what the 14 Point Plan was. Do you see the difference in the question difficulty?

    As for the older generation, I'm saying people like elderly should enjoy the freedom of choice as well. Go to any nursing home and what do they emphasize? Choice. They give Elderly a choice of what to have for a meal, a choice of what they want to do for activities, etc. Any nursing home that only gives 1 selection wouldn't be operating in the best sense to accommodate the older adults. Choice is something that is helpful to all generations, I was just giving an example.

  • Alaskies

    It's actually not even a fetus until about 6 or 7 weeks, if you want to go by the heartbeat rule. But even then, it's a fetus that's just beginning to develop, when you first hear the heartbeat. Stem cell research wouldn't exist if it weren't for the fact that it's not a fully developed baby in the womb for the first two or three months. I personally think the abortion law should change to the that theory: If you can detect a heartbeat, you are no longer allowed to abort that baby, and it's usually an average of about 6 weeks, give or take. I'm pro choice, I just think that abortion should be the last choice to give yourself. If you can't even take care of yourself, then you should get an abortion. Another thing that anti-abortionists don't tend to think about is that although abortion is legal up to the end of the first trimester, 99% of abortions are done WAY before that, so the vast majority of abortions is nothing like murdering a baby. Everybody needs to educate themselves on this topic, Pro choice or Pro life, makes no difference, get educated, know how abortions work, the laws surrounding them, stem cell research, things like that. Be an autodidact on this issue.

  • robertallen1

    You first state that abortion law should be changed to prevent abortions after about six weeks, but then state not only that you're pro choice, but "if you can't even take care of yourself, then you should get an abortion." Suppose your financial, personal or mental/emotional situation changes radically after the first six weeks? What about serotinously discovered ectopic pregnancies or non-viable fetuses?
    I look at it this way: better 5,000,000 abortions than one unwanted child.

  • http://profiles.google.com/monique.aube M A

    Statistically, it's highly unlikely the child would be 'another Einstein' as you put it. Lets focus on giving opportunity to the wanted children, making sure the children who ARE born get the very best of our society, no? Nope, people are too obsessed with telling women what to do with their bodies, not offer any social perks like childcare or gender equality, such as equal wages to make sure a woman isn't twice as likely to end up below the poverty line than a male is.

    Also, PS, the pain you describe... irrelevant, fetuses don't have the cognitive ability to process the horror you describe. :) So it is impossible to place myself in that womb.

  • Alaskies

    I know that it probably amazes you that one can appear to be on both sides, but I'm looking at it from a more scientific standpoint. To the people who think that it's the equivalent of murdering a baby or child, I'm stating that it's absolutely not. I was scientifically explaining when one could and should rationally determine EXACTLY when that constant developing mass of cells in a woman's womb basically does become a baby. And to me, once it's heart starts beating, it is a baby, and even has the shape of one. I'm pro choice, but I agreed with the heartbeat bill when it was proposed. It would still give the woman the choice, it would just cut the time frame in half; instead of having 3 whole months, said woman would have roughly a month and a half to choose. Is that not enough time? Why not give the woman 6 months to choose? Why not 8 months? And all of those "what ifs" that you threw out there, are those all things that can only happen between 6 weeks and 12 weeks? It seems like that's how you're stating it, as if nothing like that could occur AFTER the first trimester. Isn't a non-viable fetus one that cannot and will not be able to survive outside of the womb? Nothing would change except for the time frame, that's all I'm talking about here. I would hate to see Roe V. Wade overturned, because things would just go back to the way they were before Roe V. Wade, i.e. back alley abortions done by shady doctors with very risky consequences.

  • robertallen1

    The list is not all-inclusive, for it is impossible to come up with an omniroster--and this alone militates against foreshortening the period for decision. Frankly, it is none of your business or anyone else's except for the woman's in consultation with whomever she chooses.

  • Alaskies

    And there it is. You're simply butt hurt because I'm not completely and utterly on your side when it comes to the issue at hand. I'm half way on your side, if not more, but I'm just saying, for the sake of arguing that abortion is like killing a baby, as Ray Comfort suggests it is, it's actually not like killing a fully developed and birthed baby, at all. I just think the detection of a heartbeat is the first sign that there is a living, feeling, breathing fetus in the womb. This is just my opinion, people are always going to have their opinions, you should try and be less on the defense when somebody simply states the way they feel about something. It's purely subjective.

  • robertallen1

    Considering that these people are trying to take away the right of women to choose for themselves and are endeavoring to inflict their morality on others, no way!

  • Pete Moss

    How come the woman AND the man don't have to take responsibility for making a baby? One hundred years ago, it would've been unthinkable to mash up, rip apart, and wrench out a growing child, from the mother's womb, but now it's business as usual. Don't tug at people's heartstrings, to gain sympathy for a meaningless cluster of cells, that can't feel pain, anyway. Everyone you love, who has ever lived in your presence, was once that cluster of cells. And I'm certain that you're not qualified to declare whether or not the fetus is in any pain. They have videos of very young fetuses thrashing about, and acting like they're in distress, but you know better........like you've been there. Life begins at conception, and although that life is dependent upon the woman, he/she has no less of a right to live. This is why tens of thousands of women suffer mental anguish, some for the rest of their lives, over the guilt of snuffing out another life.

  • dewflirt

    'One hundred years ago it would have been unthinkable....'
    Not so, see wikipedia - History of Abortion.

  • robertallen1

    "This is why tens of thousands of women suffer mental anguish, some for the rest of their lives, over the guilt of snuffing out another life." How do you know this? How do you know that there are not many more women who simply get on with their lives?
    One way or the other it's the woman's choice, not yours.

  • Alaskies

    Okay ;)

  • Sara

    It's funny how he does not ask the lady who had an abortion if she had changed her mind about it, only the opinnions of the people who have no experience with the subject seem to matter in this video.

  • cwcopel

    Of course a bunch of 14 year old american girls aren't going to know who Hitler is. They're too busy being brainwashed by MTV and Disney Channel to have room for worrying about some guy from so long ago they can't even comprehend who killed some people. They see like 3 realistic looking murders a day or more on TV. Whatever. And then he finds the kid that has been smoking weed since he was 8 and who was probably skipping class when everyone was learning about Hitler.

    I got 2 minutes and 15 seconds in. Good luck.

  • Gaia O'Dea

    According to the Xian who did this video all Jews are going to hell anyway because they do not take Jesus as their personal saviour but know this is bull****. So no matter how good they are, no matter they have never broken any of the ten commandments this God of YOURS will torture each and every Jew for all eternity so horribly for not obeying such a disgusting tyrant god ...so..obviously better they aborted before birth and all others who since god knows if they will ever sin and not repent they go to hell forever too! So all i can say is VIVA ABORTION for it saves most everyone in the world from an eternity of fire and brimestones. **** your god i want nothing to do with this god of your and those like you's fake god.

  • ben

    Abortion is not Murder! A fetus and a Human are two very different things. Humans have souls, fetus' do not. Our souls are bestowed upon us at birth. The Hour the day the month the year that we are born. That's what astrology shows us. The fact is we are all made up of energy. The energy we receive from the stars and planets the moment we are born is the soul we will carry with our bodies until we expire and return to being just energy.

  • kicknbak60

    what an absolutely twisted bias crock of bullshat.. thou shalt not kill.. unless of course god tells you too.. If you believe in the invisible man then the atrocities commit by god.. ordered by and done in his name make the nazi's look like school children.. and even in the magic fairy tale book god recognizes the official beginning of life as birth..genesis 2:7. a womans body is her own.. her choice but if you have read the magic book it's clear that women to god are basically property all of these christian apolgetics are the same take what ever scripture suits there agenda and ignore the rest.. if you can ignore part of it then its fair to ignore it all god is a fairy tale and religion invented to control bronze age barbarians continually perpetuated by indoctrination to further control the masses intelligent design has nothing to say that is intelligent morals are based on the mores of society.. if yours are based on fairy tales if your morals are based on some promise of a glorious after life then you are nor moral there was nothing before this life and nothing after.. it's a one shot deal.. do the most good you can while you are here.. i dont find many adults believe in the easter bunny..santa clause the tooth fairy or unicorns.. get over this mystical bullshat .. embrace knowledge based on empirical facts evidence and reason and perhaps we could truly make this world a decent place to live in !!

  • Tg

    No uterus = no opinion. Get out of my womb dude.