The Birth of Israel

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Storyline

The Birth of IsraelDocumentary examining the the events leading up to the Israeli war of Independence in 1949, its continuing impact on Arab/Israeli relations and the implications for the Middle East peace process.

Sixty years ago Israel established itself in the wake of the British Mandate of Palestine.

For the Palestinians, expelled from their homes in the process, the Israeli War of Independence is still known as The Catastrophe (al-Nakba).

Jeremy Bowen, the BBC's Middle East editor examines the events leading up to the conflict, the war itself and the lasting legacy for the Middle East.

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Comments and User Reviews

  • anne V

    what a mess!

  • Ed

    Another work of wonder by the brits.... Indeed, what a mess.

  • Al

    It always amaze me the double standard that the world view Israel. If this has been done by an African or Latin country I am convinced that the world would have had a different stand!

  • velly

    Another arab propoganda =)

  • Al

    As I said its AMAZING ;)

  • Hardy

    Honestly?

    Let the damned fundamentalists kill each other in a specifically built arena so the people who simply want peace can live together. England f*cked up, the Arabs f*cked up, the Jews f*cked up - let's get over it and stop hating each other. Argh, this topic makes me mad every time I hear about it...

  • Alan

    Not so simple, Hardy. It's a brutal military occupation supported by the US. It's hard to live in peace under a brutal occupation, where daily humiliation is your place. Untermenschen is now Araboushim.

    Incidentally, I'm interested in the casual dismissal of this documentary being Arab/British propaganda. I wasn't aware of such an alliance that would dare to smear the beautiful face of Israel.

  • Al

    Hardy I thought it was the british f*cked the arabs and the nazis f*cked the jews?

  • Hardy

    To declare all Arabs innocent is wrong, too. The Hamas isn't helping the peace process, terrorist acts just create more extremists and don't solve anything.

    But just as much, the conservative Likud are treating Arabs as filth. US money helps the Israelis buy modern arms to keep the Arabs 'in their place'. There is not a single bit of will to create peace, which is very logical:

    The Israeli government profits from the Arabs. They have an enemy against which they can mobilize the population, a threat to keep the population scared. By making the Arabs the attackers and the Israelis the defenders, everybody is shown whom to hate. This way, the government is depicted as doing the best for the nation and will be voted for again and again and again. Why delete the best part of your own political party's program.

    The only people that COULD do something about this is the Western Governments. They have the power over Israel (Who here still believes Israel would survive a single day without money from the West?) and can pressure the government through political measures.

    The problem is that the typical answer to such tendencies is 'you are all antisemites'.

    History is repeating itself in the most ridiculous fashion possible.

  • Luke Wilson

    Israel is GODS NATION. Its Inhabitants are GODS people. They are the chosen ones. Respect Israel and its people or be damned to an eternity of damnation....

  • Luke Wilson

    Anyone who dares say anything negative about it or its people should be considered an anti-semite and banished from all the lands.....

  • Al

    Although I am against Hamas but still here is the double standard again. Hamas was democratically elected as the conservative Likud were, Hammas militants shelled the Israeli civilians and the Israeli army bombed the Palestinian civilians, Hamas is labeled a terrorist organization and Israeli are defending them self?!
    However I agree with Hardy but I don’t think it’s possible without addressing the topic honestly and impartially. (Risking being labeled antisemites ofcourse!!)

  • Al

    and ofcourse here it came...thanks Luke for proving my point :)

  • Luke Wilson

    I was being sarcastic... No doubt the palestinian people are an oppressed people... However, they cant win any fight against israel. So its better to submit and let them rule over palestine. Yes its not fair and all that but its either that or the bombs... No???

  • Alan

    Mr Wilson, I consider anti-semitism to mean viewing the Jewish people as subhuman or inferior to other groups/races. To claim Israelis are superiorto gentiles is naked racism. Calling attention to that is not anti-semitism, and I don't believe you speak for all jews, just perhaps the fundamentalists, who are essentially as arrogant and deluded as fundamentalists of all religions, muslim and christian included.

  • Joe_nyc

    "Since the 1970s, Israel has been one of the top recipients of U.S. foreign aid." - wiki

    We give Israel not millions, not even billions, but in trillions of dollars. Israel is ranked third in the world military power. And most importantly, Israel got nukes. America created a little monster for Middle Eastern oil. Now, we have Iraq. And Israel is finally revealing its teeth.

  • Al

    @ Luke
    Maybe you are right a one state solution could be best...but will it be democratic? Cause if it will be the Arab population represents more than 50% and if they get to vote then they will have a good chance of a very strong representation!! (N.b. also the rate of growth is considerable as on average Arab mothers have 7 children) I wonder how the Israeli are going to solve this one...I guess they will have to import a lot of Jews... or perhaps declare the Palestinians (slaves) with no rights to vote…Or convert to a kingdom system and abolish voting all together…. I wonder!!!

  • Luke Wilson

    Hey you guys are confusing me for a jew. I am not jewish. I am just a realist. I am saying that palestine can not win. How can they win?? Its impossible. Israel beat them in 1948 with a few thousand soldiers... Palestine and all those arab countries had there chance to stop the occupation from being permanent. They failed. Now they are simply paying the price. Simple as that. They can cry to there God all they want, but God wont do anything.... I am impressed that this documentary tried being as open as possible.. They are not hiding the facts that Israel was origanally palestinian land nor the fact that inorder to get it the jews had to kill alot of innocent palestines and move the rest out... As the person said in one of the interviews.. Its no secret now. Poor palestine and all those people in Gaza... What amazes me is after all this years they still havent realised they have been beaten. They are all living there(gaza) thinking that one day they will be let back into there old land. Its sad because it wont happen anytime soon...

  • Hardy

    @Joe_nyc: There are a lot more videos like that, yet it is shocking to me, over and over again. They treat them like worthless pieces of cr*p, nothing less than subhumans.

    And yes, the two state solution is impossible at the moment.

  • Joe_nyc

    Luke, I can smell a Zionist from a mile away.

  • Luke Wilson

    What? I am not condoning anything that israel is doing... I am simply saying that like for example in that youtube clip that you have showed, the closest thing to justice that person who had his toe shot is getting that clip on youtube... THATS IT FOR HIM! And i consider him lucky, am sure there are alot more like him who have been shot and mistreated and not with a rubber bullet but maybe a real one but they never got any justice. Am simply stating that, that is what they should expect. If you are occupied by an aggressive regime, you'd be stupid to expect to be treated with compassion.. And since they cannot win, am simply saying they should save themselves the hassle and surrender and give israel everything it wants.... why waste more lives on something as futile as fighting for something you can't have???? This people should just walk away. The more they try and fight back the more the israeli propaganda machine spins into action and makes them out to appear as terrorists or barbarians, when they clearly are not - and because palestine are arabs, when they are labelled terrorists, then all arabs are labelled terrorists?? No??... And no I am not an arab either.

  • Joe_nyc

    LOL...;)

  • Hardy

    Well, I guess it's a basic sense of justice that makes a robbed person want to punish the thief, speaking in an over dramatized metaphor.

    The problem is that the Palestinians, at least many of them, have nothing to lose. I'm sure, if they would have living standard like us or the prospect of IMPROVING their living standards through submission that they would do so, for the most part at least. The problem is that it can only get worse, and what do you do if you have no future and no present? You revolt.

  • Alan

    Mr Wilson, only the mind of a conqueror is baffled at a people's refusal to submit and lower their heads. If you consider South Africa and Ireland, you can be sure there were many similar questions raised about the miserable wretches refusing to submit.

  • Luke Wilson

    Wow, well put Hardy. Infact by what you said you did something even more remarkable than state the obvious truth. You gave an indication as to how much real quantifable hope the occupied palestinian people have.

    I'll explain myself. Following from your argument, they have no choice to revolt as they have neither a future nor a present. So according to you, if they indeed submitted in the hope that they would somehow get better treatment, they would be wrong as they would pretty much be lambs sending themselves to the slaughter - speaking in an over dramatized metaphor offcourse. So there best option as it stands right now is to rebel and revolt as this is the best of the available options. Fair enough. From israels point of view, if they want to make peace, then they should open up other real viable non-violent avenues for palestinians to pursue... But they dont? Instead they let them rebel by blowing up israeli village house by the border and israel retaliates by sending in the jets.... To me this indicates acouple of things.

    A. Israel doesnt want peace. Because if it did, it would have opened up other non-violent avenues for the palestine people to pursue.

    B. Isreal are untouchable atleast while they have american protection and therefore as a result dont care what palestinian people do as there is virtually nothing they can do that would dent that mighty israeli armor.

    As a result of this, I would advise any person living in Gaza not to submit as that is clearly a futile process but instead TO GET THERE BACKSIDE OUTTA THAT HELL HOLE, it doesnt matter where you end up as that place is bound to be an improvement!!

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @Alan - Japan was occupied by the US. In a way it still is. We dropped nukes on japan and in 30 years they had become a world power again. Even occupied nations can thrive.

  • Luke Wilson

    Oh wait, am sorry. I forgot most cant leave - its just not an option. I mean leave and go where??? Go somewhere new? No money, no home, no job, nothing. No future. Its best to stay there and just hope. Hope is the only thing left.

  • afly_on_the_wall

    they would be wrong as they would pretty much be lambs sending themselves to the slaughter – speaking in an over dramatized metaphor offcourse.<< this is not really an over statement. if you take into account the daily treatment of the Palestinians living today. you would think them to be quite placid. yes there sure are a few factions of "freedom fighters" left. but when it you talk to normal every day Palestinians all they want now is to live life. and to keep the al-Aqsa mosque. god only knows whats going to happen when the Jews go to bulldoze that site. will they say " oops we made a mistake " then?

  • Al

    @ Luke
    I don't get what are you proposing "they should save themselves the hassle and surrender and give israel everything it wants…" What does Israel really want? it seems like what would only satisfy it is the extinction of the Arabs and if that is true then what you are really proposing is they commit mass suicide......then I fail to see how would this stop "Why waste more lives"

    @ Joe
    I was pondering the one state solution..

    @ Alan
    I agree...if history is a guide line any nation which attempt to completely obliterate another have failed in its attempt… I believe it’s a physical impossibility... I think Gandhi's example might be worth a shot?!

  • afly_on_the_wall

    btw...most can't leave no other Arab countries want the influx of Palestinians. Jordan is now over run with them and having quite a problem. every one else has them labeled as terrorist. so they make it has hard as they can to let you get a visa to leave. there r still thousands living in tent camps...but you wont see that on the news ether

    sorry for the dubble post

  • Luke Wilson

    @ Al.

    Maybe the one state solution is the only option. But as you say, if arabs outnumber the jews, then the arabs would have voting power if it were a true democracy.... So why would israel want a one state? I think the one-state solution will not be democratic. One cant argue logically as to how it could be democratic without the jews not being worse-off. I think there is no-solution to the palestine-israel problem. The only real solution available that would stop any more blood-shed is all the jews to get back on the boats and go back where they came from as that land they call israel was infact stollen from palestine. As this clearly wont happen, I think its going to remain as it is with all the chaos and bloodshed that we see.

  • Al

    I don't think that Jews are the problem I think Zionist are the problem. Historically Jews have fled prosecution in the west to seek refuge in the east. Since the 15th Century Jews have reached high positions in the Ottoman court and administration include minister of Finance Hekim Yakup Pasa, and Abraham de Castro, the master of the mint in Egypt.
    This artificial fabrication of history to portray that the Arabs/Muslims and the Jews were in conflict since existence is only to serve the raciest Zionest agenda....and the only solution I see is to expose it so the truth be seen. Once this happen I human logic will resolve it... or I might be an optimistic fool

  • Alan

    @ HaTe_MaChInE
    I don't agree with the Japan analogy. Japan was plugged into the corporate order after the emperor was disrobed, and has indeed reaped benefits for those who embrace technology and the corporate system. While military bases there are a sore point, there was no brutal military occupation lasting for decades with daily humiliation and harrasment.

    It's worth noting that "brutal military occupation" is not permitted in mainstream news editorials/debates. Hard-headed political analysts/pundits do not accept that description to begin with. Something to think about.

    @Al
    While not condoning terrorism, it's hard to see how a nonviolent approach in Palestine will lead to anything other than the media ignoring the daily oppression. When UN resolutions that support Palestinians are being vetoed by the US standing alone, the situation is far beyond the reach of the Palestinian people. Until American and Israeli activists gain more influence within their own societies, the game will continue, bar some radical event like internal revolution or a stronger reaction from Europe.

  • MIke

    "Our race is the Master Race. We Jews are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattlce at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves." - Menachem Begin, Israeli Prime Minister to New Statesman magazine on June 25, 1982

    Luke, I eagerly await the day I can piss in your mouth.

  • MIke

    Luke, nevermind! I thought you were serious! Sorry!

  • Xavier L.

    Very informative. No doubt we only see one side of the issue, and it´s been hammered into our heads through the media that the Israeli´s are righteously defending their land and the Palestinians are anti-semitic terrorists that want to steal that land.

    And even though this documentary breaks the situation down step by step, we´ll still have people defending the ethnic cleansing that´s going on in Palestine.

  • vishwajeet

    hahaha lolzzz
    how could somebody like menachem begin d israeli pm comment like that
    has he forgotten the beating so early...that hitler gave his community
    master race.... hahaha
    it is to the world community u owe yr existence
    yr master GOD didnt com to save u when it was required
    now u say others r human excrement worth to b ruled
    hahaha lolzzz
    literally uncultured

  • Al

    I think the passive resistance approach would be the most viable and effective long term solution. (I know it seem like wishful thinking) but the alternative will only play in the hand of the Zionist agenda. Allow me to elaborate further...exposing the truth, the fact that Arab/Muslims and Jews are not immortal enemies historically and the majority are tolerant people will eliminate the stereotypes...but to eliminate the stereotypes we have to eliminate the ignorance and ignorance is mainly caused by poverty. Therefore what needs to be eliminated from the world is poverty but that’s a whole new ball game….

    @ Alan
    I don’t think controlling the media now days is a realistic possibility and main stream media (BBC) is realizing it. 10 years ago this documentary (2008) would not have been made. However, the conflict has existed since the 50’s. I estimate it will take (CNN) another 10 years…but I wonder about (Fox news) though…..

  • Bluesmanwalking

    I'm certain i'm not the only one who sees the "Tuff Love" the US is giving Israel lately. Everyone is fade up with Israel's agenda, even it's own Defense Minister Ehud Barak. We can sense the Arab countries have reached their limit with Israel. Sudden solutions are popping in Irak, maybe to get the troops out sooner ? I personally have the feeling that as soon as the Western troops are out of the region, the Arabs are going to get very mad if Israel doesn't do a 180 degree turn. Everyone knows the US is flat broke, so there's no way in hell they would intervene if Israel gets bum rushed. Mark my words.

  • Sam

    The U.S. did the same thing to our native americans, of course we would support Isreal and it's genocide against the Palestinians, having a jewish nuclear state at our side also keeps the region in check. Our hope it to keep it at a stalemate indefinately while we pump the oil out from under their feet, trust me when the oil dries up we will have no more interest in the area. Maybe Iran will speed up the agenda for us? giving us a win in Iran would secure our power in the region indefinately and we wouldn't need Isreal any longer. I can't believe people are still soo naive to think that we don't benefit from Isreal being controversial and keeping them at odds with all their neighbors. Its simple bait and switch while we let the Isreali's and Palestinians pay the human price for our western greed. I am not anti american just anti empiralist, I think the world has enough room in it for everyone to be happy, it's only when we deceptively impose policies to forward the greed of corporate entities that it all gets so messed up.

  • Al

    Well put Sam couldn't agree more

  • rabin

    im terribly sorry to ruin this anti israeli harmony by pointing some wrong facts and issues raised from your comments.
    1. to say that the war against the palestinians is the source of legitimacy to the government and that's why it is re-elected each time is to know absolutely nothing about israel's politics. we've elected 6 different governments to lead us doring the last 18 years- most of them elected because they promised thay would bring peace (especially doring the 1990's- before we gave up on the possibility of peace with those people)
    2. one of you accurately mentioned that the hamas was democratically elected, if so why do all of you say that the palestinian civilians are such innocent peaceloving people?
    as i see it, in israel you promise peace and get elected, and in the palestinian authority you promise bloody war and get elected.
    3. the israeli army might kill innocent people at times but it never aims at innocent people like the hamas is doing all the time. the purpose of the israeli army is to kill those who are a threat to us.
    4. you have all seem to catch the western worlds "we are the ones to blame for extreme islam hostility" pandemic. there is only one cure for the illness, you should take a good look at the arab/muslim countries that does not have anything to do with the west and see for yourselves it aint no treat for civillians over there.

  • Joe_nyc

    rabin, you forgot to play the Holocaust notes. How it entitles and sanctifies and justifies Israel's 'Right to Exist' at ANY COST.

  • Charles B.

    Rabin: You make very good points. You have my fullest support for Israel; always have; always will.

    Shaloam!

  • rabin

    Joe, i really hate to see americans like your self give them selves away for arab propaganda. the clip you gave here reveals that we are not trying to kill any innocent palestinians- this soldier shot the man in the leg with a ruber bullet, wich means a broken leg for the poor guy and prison for the idiot soldier and his commander.
    if this is the best you can get at trying to prove "massacre" of palestinians than im pretty shure that my country and my army are doing their best to spare civiliant lives..

  • Sam

    Thanks Al, intelligence attracts like. you sound rather versed and informed yourself. It's an outside the box view coupled with a capitalist perspective. Most times all one must do to understand policy is to examine the psychology and agenda of those writing it. I don't agree with it, but easily understand where it comes from and why it is so. It amazes me how many sheeple they can keep fooled with religion or ancestral/zionist politics and I think Luke Wilson played the bait with the Zionist propaganda earlier. Thanks Mr. Wilson you do illustrate a stereotype that needs to be transcended and I think that was your point? eh... I think this rabbit round the tree discussion is one of the more informed and enlightening so far. It is easy to see how Israeli's can have a jaded perspective being so close to the violence and seem to be un appologetic to the Palestinian people. I have been to Israel and was on Orange St. when a HAMAS bomb blew on Benyahuten (forgive my spelling) in Jerusalem, killing some shop owners and passers by. This was my first experience with terror at age 10 and I remember it like it was yesterday. For this I feel I almost qualify to comment on this stuff having shared the sufferings of their people, but at the same time I am now 30 and have seen the world at its best and worst and I know that people from both sides Israeli and Palestinian are capable of better and should stop letting Zionism and propaganda dictate and manipulate their people to hate each other. The puppets have strings all you must do is follow them to their masters.

  • Hardy

    @rabin:
    It's quite obvious why people in Palestine vote for hamas. They have been waiting for a peace-offer for decades, yet every time a single radical muslim decides to kill innocent civilians (which is obviously a horrible thing, no question), Israel's government uses it as an excuse for a new counter-offensive. This counteroffensive is answered by radicals with suicide bombings, another counteroffensive, another bombing and so on.

    The only chance for peace would be an unconditional halt of all aggressive behavior, be it the building of new settlements or military offensives. Then the suicide bombings might be reduced, but by answering with force, new recruits for the muslim radicals are created. If Israel's government would want to prevent peace, they would know how. But obviously, they are either all uneducated dim-wits (not very likely) or they have no interest in creating peace.

    I understand the blame that is put on the Palestinian people, but you have to understand the origins of the rebellion! Are they rebelling because of pure hatred, or because they have no perspective?

    I try to not see things in black and white, in my opinion, the radicals are the only people preventing peace in the region. jewish radicals that want to wipe the Arab race from the face of the planet and muslim radicals that want to drive the jews back into the Mediterranean Sea.

    On the other hand, Palestinians are getting more and more frustrated because nothing is happening in the peace process, so they vote radically (until 2006 they had fatah-leaderships, hamas gaining power is a very new occurrence, new radicals are appearing due to ever increasing hate).

    On the other side, the Israeli's vote for the party that promises peace, yet those parties don't try to achieve peace (no unconditional offers, if an offer is made, it is to the loss of the Palestinians, continuing counteroffensives against all human logic).

    @Charles: Do you have more arguments than those of faith? Just asking.

  • rabin

    hardy,
    i can see your thought is not black and white, although you may find some missing information usefull to solve the israeli "politically aggressive" equation.
    1. 2006 was indeed the first time that the hamas won the palestinian elections, but it was also the first time it was nominated. it would have won the elections much before 2006 if given the opportunity.
    2. the fatah leadership- when yaaser arafat was still in control he knew exactly how to use hamas for his political ambitions by giving them "a green light" to do the job so that he could stand from the side saying to us: look what is the reaction of the palestinian people to what you are doing.
    we still wanted to make peace with this animal until we saw it was impossible to trust him, we even gave his police guns to control their people- later to be used against us.
    after arafat, unfortunately, there wasn't any leader that could control the palestinian population and get their legitimacy to do any sort of agreement with israel, and right now the palestinian authority is split up. west bank- fatah, gaza strip- hamas.
    even if we negotiate with the fatah, there will still be another ruller in gaza strip which will not agree to any of the terms because their agenda is to not negotiate with israel, the only way for them is fighting.
    3. about the hatred- it's not about race (not for us and not for theme) it's not a jewish-arab conflict but an israeli- palestinian conflict, although naturally each side has it's own "race" standing behind him.. by the way we are supposed to be the same race (Semite) and were probably the same people few thousands of years ago.
    as far as i can see it the hatred doesn't come from us.
    i think the conflict is just run as cold calculations from our side- whatever brings us most security with less casualties on both sides is the best.
    about their hatred i can only testify from what i saw on television. and let me tell you something about that, to see them broadcasting sesami street with kipi as a suicide bomber saying to the child:"don't worry, one day we will win this war" and then dies as a martyr is rather depresing.

  • Hardy

    I hope I will be able to post an answer soon, and I agree with many of your points.

    Just one quick thing to your last sentence, there is a documentary out there (forgot the name) where they interview a 4-5 year old Palestinian child and ask it how jews look like. The girls answer was: 'They are men who wear helmets.' It's almost as depressing as the Sesame Street you mentioned.

  • Charles B.

    Hardy: Faith and history are tied for the Jewish people for me. They were part of that land before anyone else lived there that live there now. When Samuel Clemments visited there in his lifetime, he described it as a "waste land" and so there wasn't a "Palistinian State" there even a century ago. But, the Jewish (Israelite) people have had claim to the land for thousands of year.

    And yes, that is part of a religious belief, but it's also a fact. They were removed by force and have just returned to what was rightfully theirs.

    Peace.

  • Hardy

    @Charles: I had feared as much.

    What about the Native Americans?

  • nanner yacey

    remember, the jews are superior to non-jews in every way and they will one day enslave all non-jews (which they regard as cattle) - nice...

    is it any wonder no-one likes them? theyre not making any friends with this outlook!

    maybe it was britain's intention to keep the jew's attention focussed away from the rest of the world and obsessed with arab counter-friction?

  • MIke

    @ Sam

    "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001

    Think otherwise?

  • http://www.satanicchurch.com/ Lucifer

    all this happened because god doesnt believe in what I have said , every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area, and you multiply, and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet, you are a plague, and we are the cure. It is the reason why I would not submit to human, when God commanded me to serve human, so I suggest to the God to instruct abraham sacrificed his two sons Isaac and Ishmael , because they are the source of evil in this world :D

  • Ned

    @Mike:

    nice to see a critical thinker / truth seeker here. Yes there is something fishy involved with them and their influence and people now at many critical places in our gov't.

    Keep digging folks, but keep in mind that the truth may be stranger than you've been spoonfed through the "news" media and popular opinion all these years.

  • puppetandmuppets

    are the palestinians are the seed of Abraham ? , which i known from their Abrahamaic faith story that ever told , Ismael is son's of Abraham from Sarah servant named Hagar , Hagar was Egyptian woman not a Jew , how a child who is mutant between a Jew and Egyptian become a father of Arabian ? this lies story like an one Chinese people going migrant to America for food , and in the future all American people as saying that their ancestors were from China :D

  • Al

    @puppet
    Hagar was "Pharaoh's daughter" and a princess. When Sarah was in Pharaoh's harem he gave her his daughter Hagar as slave. Judaism was principally established by Moses who is a descended of Ibrahim. It is not "Arabian" this referece to a region occupied by "Arabs". ;)

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagar_%28Bible%29 hohoho

    Neither Sarah nor Hagar are mentioned by name in the Qur'an

    According to Qisas Al-Anbiya, an Islamic collection of tales about the prophets, Hagar was the daughter of the King of Maghreb, a descendant of the Islamic prophet Salih. Her father was killed by Pharaoh Dhu l-'arsh and she was captured and taken as slave.

    source: wikipedia.org

    is that mean their fairy story are fraud

  • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagar_%28Bible%29 hohoho

    how Hagar was the daughter of the King of Maghreb, a descendant of the Islamic prophet Salih ?

    Judaism , Christianity , and Islam wasnt exist even Moses wasnt born at that time :D

    its all ridiculous

  • Zyp

    Shame on Britain and the Jews of Israel. Why did they claim a land that they dont rightfuly own (and dont tell me about the promised land its not an excuse). Seriously shame on all israelis who settle in the palestine land. I am not an Arab but I think I can distiquish right from wrong.

    Just because you didnt have a state doesnt mean you can steal one. I understand the frustration of not belonging somewhere, but causing so much pain and conflict will not solve anything.

    Please dont call me a Jew hater, quite the contrary I believe we are all brothers in this world. Unfortunately our family is not going along that well..

  • Rob Jones

    Isis Ra El (Israel for short) will be destroyed by God.

    Yes, God is, according to the Bible scripture, going to destroy Israel - again!

    What a great time to be an arms dealer!

    The world is comprised of 5 billion idiots. There is a question as to which is greater - the Universe or human stupidity - and of the Universe I'm sure there is an end - but I'm equally convinced that as to human stupidity, there is no end. Men will go on killing and the variable for which they kill each other is nothing more than opportunity for those who make a profit from the slaughter. The greater the slaughter, the greater the profit. The price of oppression is always greater than the price of peace, therefore the cost of oppression is always greater than the cost of peace. You, dear reader, are trapped in a world which will, in time, destroy itself, it is not a question of "if" to the intelligent, but "when".

    There are men whose wealth is so vast they can acquire privately built nuclear weapons. And with these privately built nuclear weapons, nuclear blackmail is all the more prevalent. This is a world held hostage, dear reader, and you are in it. The nuclear geenie will one day escape its bottle, and life on the Earth after the smoke and dust clears will be vastly different from what you see of it now. I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought with, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.

  • Wendy

    I thought this was a good, balanced doc. The only folks who might have looked better than they deserved were the Brits! Hmmmm.

  • Joey

    Maranatha! Come Lord Jesus and heal this fractured world!!!

  • Sabertooth

    Well done doc! I learned a lot about the complexity of the situation.

  • lessen

    Israeli war of independence HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

  • Damn Yankee

    Jesus "Smart" man, I'm glad SOMEONE is using Wikipedia! I must now away to inform my friend Benny that he's not a real, according-to-Wiki Jew. Good call on including the URL...next time though, I recommend you actually read your OWN source material in its entirety:

    DNA Evidence

    A 1999 study by Hammer et al., published in the Proceedings of the United States National Academy of Sciences compared the Y chromosomes of Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian Jews with 16 non-Jewish groups from similar geographic locations. It found that "Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level... The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora."[53] According to Nicholas Wade "The results accord with Jewish history and tradition and refute theories like those holding that Jewish communities consist mostly of converts from other faiths, or that they are descended from the Khazars, a medieval Turkish tribe that adopted Judaism."[54]

  • 4PeaceInMideast

    It's kind of hilarious at 34:30, how the interviewer purposely riles up the Palestinian by putting words into Peres' mouth. I actually had to quit watching this at that point, as the film revealed its slant.

  • Sam

    Right Wing Israel is not the holy country so many of us were taught it is. It is one of the most aggressive countries in the world, and that is why there have been many votes against it in the United Nations.

    Israel is strong, it does not need our money, it does not appreciate it. It has a long history of insulting both Republican and Democratic Presidents. Call Congress and
    ask them why we send them billions if they don't need it
    and we Do Need it here.

  • joshua wilson

    all of you are so blind.Remember behind all of your rhetoric israel is a state created illegally,by the zionist Rothschild dynasty.honestly if they are so chosen where's the holy authority today.The israelites are confused.If the Diaspora was for a reason then let them wander like Cain.
    And furthermore both israel and palestine believe they are right because old guard zionists won't let people live in peace only in perpetual war.
    Go ahead look deeper than you TV.Infact kill you TV.Get over petty divisions such as organized group think religion,race,gender.We all worship the same GOD,only sub-divided by narcissistic evangelists prolonging division from the ONE true GOD.Please research israel or ISIS RA EL.Or Isis virgin mother of RA the suffering savior son of EL the lord of the GODS.Then consider Elohim a common name for GOD means literally "gods and goddesses".Don't think since there's a duality in life why can't we except"as it is in heaven as is on earth."Pleas remember every light casts a shadow.And life cannot begin without the joining of a man and a woman.Let alone the facts Birth/Death,Night and Day the dyads continue 2 eyes 2 ears 2 feet etc etc etc

  • joshua wilson

    And Submitting to another nation because the bible tells me so is poor poor pre-requisite that really flies in the face of GOD giving us CHOICE and FREEDOM.I believe that we all float along on this rock and forget we ALL are floating on this rock in space TOGETHER we are diverse and some very unique but not alien to eachother.Get over ourselves.

  • Samaeldraigsmyth

    Opening statement of the documentary: "60 years ago Israel fought and won a war for its independence.."

    Such an incorrect introductory statement that I don't even know if I can bare to watch the rest of this documentary, what fabrications. I think bbc needs to re-evaluate the facts of world history.. fiction in the first ten-seconds. Amazing.

  • KYLE

    the most hateful govermebt ever and they start with arabs the when they throw the palestines to sea then they will
    uncover that smiling face to the world and that they disolay now if you do not know thi is the (new world ordere)

  • Fahed

    @luke...I hope your children are born with thoughts of freedom and hope and do not give up as blindly as you wish for others. Think of South Africa, Ireland, Scotland, and many other cultures including the Jews...who fought for their freedoms against all odds and one.

    Side note..nobody should be taking shots at Jews, especially Muslims...The Jewish religion is not the problem, nor Muslim or Christian. Point your fingers only at radicals, zionist, and politicians. Believe me as a Palestinian living in Canada, I have spoken to many Rabbi's and Jewish Canadians,who all feel the same way.

  • http://www.servicetrades.com George

    I would like to know about the Rothschild/Rockefeller connection to the formation of Israel. The Rothschild family pretty much owns all of England & the biggest land owner in Israel, they have manipulated Europe into the first & second world war while funding both sides.
    As for the Rockefellers; They created the Council of foreign relations (council of Europe/ Council of the Americas/ and SEVERAL other steering councils) They donated the land for the United Nations and have tremendous control over it's delegates.

    The United Nations got involved each time the Israeli Army was losing by asking for a cease fire, while funding the state of Israel covertly through Chech republic (among others) provide Superior Weapons. The british American's have allowed (even created) the massacre of the Palestinian/ Arab people. The U.S. has given over 1.9 TRILLION dollars since 1975 (thats been reported I'm sure its much higher) for less than 20 million people.
    Israel has undeclared Nuclear weapons and the allies ignore it, illegal settlements & brutality go ignored.

    Instead we use depleated Uranium weapons destroying the future of the Iraqi/Afgan (soon Iranian) people, all while Obama talks nice about Nuclear proliferation. WE in the west are Evil for letting our governments to do these things without a fight.

  • http://www.servicetrades.com George

    Please look into all the Birth defects as a result of depleated Uranium munitions used it the two ongoing wars, then ask yourself why you never hear about it on the news.

    These Luciferians have corrupted the world, and will start World war 3 to bring about the Global government, the might of the U.S. armed forces will be transfered to the new United Nations, and their will be a North American Union, European Union, pan-Asian Union And African Union... or as I like to call them WAR, DEATH, PESTILANCE & FAMINE the four horsemen of the Apacalypse.

  • sirkots

    R.I.P, Adolf Hitler....

  • Epicurean_Logic

    What a horrible thing to say @ sirkots. Its not funny or clever to say things like that on a public forum :))

  • asd

    israeli jews are the worst the world has ever seen.

  • alex

    The case of the state of Israel and the settling of Jews in a land in which they had no real political connection for about 2000 years represent a violation against all UN resolutions, Human Rights, Internatonal Law. If u try to follow this thesis, than it will be fair also for the descendents of the Roman Empire, like italians or romanians to ask back territories like the Balkans, North Africa, and so on... It's a bit exagerated, but it's a similar. Under what reason they occupy a land which hasn't been theirs for like 2000 years?. Defying history...

  • amy

    Al why do u hate HAMAS it is the best ever islamic team who save the live of others by risking their own life. ANTI-TERRORISM group,u know. dont search internet search books. I agree with u ASD. i hate jews and their inhumane manners.arent u people feeling that israel is getting weaker and weaker day by day its just because it is gonna finish.

  • GS

    whay I don't understand is why the British back in the time did everything to make the problem worse, why did they propose a solution splitting the country all in favor of the Jews when these owned only 10% of the land and had 30% of the people at that time? If they proposed a fair solution, with land assigned in proportion to the inhabitants, and the 1.9 trillion dollars of US help had been used to compensate the palestinians, the whole business could have been solved 60 years ago. Yes it would still not have been ideal, but you are a lot less prone to leave your land and goats if you receive a compensation that makes your family wealthy. And if you do the math, ALL arabs in the region could have been made happy to move if the money was spent for them instead that for guns...

  • EZA of Timor Leste

    I once flee my country but I forgot whether I wanted to or why was I, they called me refugee when I landed in the NT land but I wasn’t sure and forgot how it all happened. I received warm welcome and honestly better nourished and care in a material sense than home but there was something missing – the foreign land threw me into a soulless ocean I felt – I returned to where I belongs two and a half months later and have forgot almost all of these experienced – and so I decided to watched the documentary bellow to understand why people have to fled their country, but I get more out of it. I have come to aware how complicates the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians – the documentary have add to my confusing as to why the League of Nations and High Commissioner for refugee fail to protect Jews prior to and during WWII…If you are travelling in the same bout, I suggest you watch the documentary too.

  • Kuw-eighty

    Ben Gurion is the most simple example of how Israel is a terrorist state, as it was basically born one. He became the first prime minister of Israel, after being identified as a leader of a TERRORIST group by the british, just as Hamas and Hezbollah are being called now. And suddenly, you can see how everyone praises him for establishing the zionist state and give credit to him.

    This is so obvious people can actually selectively distort this thought, and go on believing what the media has fed to them all these years. It has always been this obvious and brutal, but that won't help anything, nothing can be done peacefully here, not even with creating a two state solution. Im not a pessimist, I'm a realist, and I can tell you that there is no chance in hell that the war of 1948 will end, until the husband returns to his bride.

  • sufihasan

    lol where ever i go to watch a doc, thers always a long list of comments and each 1 of them is trying to put other in there knees, xd, and xd.

    norman finkelstein read him , he got solution for u all.

  • Shawn L.

    @Kuw-eighty

    Good point. The original American revolutionaries were "terrorists" as well. History remembers the victors not as terrorists, but as freedom fighters. The losers are the terrorists. Funny how that works.

  • justthetruth

    Has anybody seen what a Semitic looks like?? Look at the Palestinians and you will see what Semites looked like in the days of the bible. What you see now in Israel are white Aryan European descendent's who assimilated themselves and adopted the Jewish faith. That's it. They have no more right to that land than if our forefathers converted to Buddhism long ago and we now claim China as our homeland. Look at the faces of their leaders and look at the faces of the Palestinians. These people are imposter's. I would suggest to you read the 13th tribe to get the full history on these so called Jews. They are Semitic. As the book the 13th tribe states:Its the biggest hoax perpetrated on mankind.

  • Mad at the world

    Jews are a religion not a people, in my opinion the occupiers should go. the Zionists are creating their own holocaust on their host country: Palestine. do the Juden not remember the 1940's anymore? how they were oppressed and their people suffered greatly because of stereotypes and propaganda which the Israelis are as much responsible for the murder of Palestinians and widespread hatred for Arabs throughout the west. as the Nazi Reich was responsible for the holocaust

  • TooGoyToBeMensch

    The Israeli elite know exactly what they are doing and they do know it is wrong.

    "We must expel Arabs and take their places."
    David Ben Gurion 1937.

    "Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves...we are the aggressors and they defend themselves...The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
    David Ben Gurion 1938.

    "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
    David Ben Gurion 1948.

    "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages...There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
    Moshe Dayan 1969.

    "There was no such thing as Palestinian they never existed." Golda Meir 1969.

    "...The Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel...Force is all they do or ever will understand."
    Rafael Eitan 1983.

    "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish finger nail."
    Rabbi Yaacov Perrin 1994.

    I could go on and on; the record is brimming with racist and aggresive quotes by the Jewish elite. Those mentioned above are not even near the worst of them.

    This documentary is quite good. The BBC on the whole do try, I think, to be even handed. However it does not go deep enough. To get the real detail and a far more accurate perspective you really need a good book by a credible author.

  • Deeprthanthat

    @justthetruth
    Finally some1 with some sense!!! 100% correct justthetruth. The joke is, that those people who call themselves "Israelis" are NOT THE CHOSEN PEOPLE THE BIBLE SPEAKS OF !!! The chosen come from the tribe of Judah, which is 1 of the 13 tribes of Israel (commonly known as the 12 tribes of Israel). NONE OF THESE TRIBES ARE WHITE OR FROM EUROPE!!!! The people who call themselves the JEWS.. ARE NOT !! Read the bible. The Direct descendants of David??? Not according to many other religious books. THAT LAND IS NOT YOUR HOME !!! EUROPE IS !!! YOU ARE NOT FROM THE TRIBE OF JUDAH. YOU ARE A EU NOT a JU. THAT'S Y YOU CHANGED THE SPELLING TO JEW, CUZ YOU KNEW WE WOULD DETECT YOU AS A FAKE CUZ THE BIBLE DESCRIBES WHAT A JU FROM THE TRIBE OF JUDAH LOOKS LIKE......AN IT AIN'T WHITE.....CHECK IT OUT....

  • chimie

    @velly: Arab propaganda!!...You think Arab do make a propaganda and Israel doesn't!!...you made me laugh :D

  • Bob

    Israel Palestine issue has to be the most complicated geopolitical issue in the world(Kashmir comes next I think), I listen to both sides and feel both sides have a lot of good points to talk about. Looks like this will endure as long as humanity survives.

  • menelik1&2

    Politics....Israel as it is today is a snare...there are several agendas at work.Sad that so many are caught in the middle.Israel better become more prudent because if it gets to hot it in kitchen these anglo-americans will turn on you so fast, all that goyim and babylonian talumund talk of serving you ect..won't mean a thing(better get back to the torah and the prophets and see what the will of The Most High is and not that add on interpretaion).The intl. bankers don't care they can be called jewish whatever they will do you in/sell you out they did it before.Better take charge of your own destiny and think of a truly fair rational way to deal with one another before it's too late[don't be that child that was molested and then grows up and do the same to someone else]Peace.

  • john smith

    the quran comands israel be destroyed

  • Farren

    @john smith,

    really? where? i'd like to think that all muslims are evil and hate everyone except themselves myself (i can tell we are of one heart and mind! bravo brother!), but i cant seem to find that passage. could you point it out? that way, we can kill more muslims in the name of national defense and destroy the muslims like so many of our peaceful Christian brothers desire

  • joe31

    it does not ,quit believing modern media and a handfull of stage protesters they use to forward ther agenda,islam is against the worst and hypocrates who abandon gods law,repeat the crime and god will repeat the punishment,even hypocritical muslems, the believing jew study your history well,islam calls them people of the book and gives them protected status,why is it that they were able to live in all islamic countries and keep there religion,but not the reverse in isreal,especially when all europe kick them out again and again,islam saved judism from extition ,wich scholars know and are aware of,the qruaran distinguish the true from false,even the time of muhammed there were jews excepted and and jews judgement made against,why did god have the prophet marry a jewish wife who is honored in islam,study the facts,dont show your ignorance by repeating modern media and those who are ignorant.

  • Orochimaruu

    ther wil be never a end

  • Top_Quark

    White man came across the sea
    He brought us pain and misery
    He killed our tribes, he killed our creed
    He took our game for his own need

    We fought him hard we fought him well
    Out on the plains we gave him hell
    But many came too much for Cree
    Oh will we ever be set free?

    Riding through dust clouds and barren wastes
    Galloping hard on the plains
    Chasing the redskins back to their holes
    Fighting them at their own game
    Murder for freedom the stab in the back
    Women and children are cowards attack

    Run to the hills, run for your lives
    Run to the hills, run for your lives

    (Iron Maiden)

  • Top_Quark

    White man came across the sea
    He brought us pain and misery
    He killed our tribes, he killed our creed
    He took our game for his own need

    We fought him hard we fought him well
    Out on the plains we gave him hell
    But many came too much for Cree
    Oh will we ever be set free?

    Riding through dust clouds and barren wastes
    Galloping hard on the plains
    Chasing the redskins back to their holes
    Fighting them at their own game
    Murder for freedom the stab in the back
    Women and children are cowards attack

    Run to the hills, run for your lives
    Run to the hills, run for your lives.....

    (Iron Maiden)

  • http://profiles.google.com/amihland ????? ?????

    THAT MOVIE IS FULL OF LIES OF SHORT MINDED EUROPEAN SNOB

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_77ZGKQCAZALBCVQYWOU47L5QDI achilles

    war crimes by israel are still bein committed. the palestinians also commit horrifc acts yes but not in the same league as the israelis...i think the title of this documentary tells it all...there was no israel until they forced one. how is that in any way right and fair to the palestinians.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Daniel-Key/592078233 Daniel Key

    The only way to solve this problem is for these fools to discard their blind nationalism and religious beliefs.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1138771803 Dominique Thom

    FOOLS! Each of you who have ANYTHING to say against Israel obviously do not read your Bibles! YHWH commanded Israel to drive out and kill off the heathen nations that occupied the land HE gave them! If muslims would read their own text they would admit they are wrong, as the koran confirms this!

  • theWatcher13

    Then it must be true!. I pity the fools!.

  • Guest

    Disgusting documentary, so biased in favour of the "palestinians". And i am actually beginning to despise white people, they deserve the fate which awaits them when their people and civilisation will diminish and end. All people except for whites look after their own interrests, the arabs are sided with the palestinians, other muslims and arabs, the jews are sided with the jews, blacks are sided with each other, positively discriminating their own. They all feel for each'es own group, they condone their own groups wrongs, excuse them, while constantly watching with hawk eyes for all others misdoings. In every way they can they want to advance their own groups objectives, the more power and influence they can seize the better.

    But white people don't side for them selves. They cry over the fate of the palestinians, and how the arabs (who stole the land from the jews) "lost control over their homeland", while at the same time doing everything they can to give up Western civilisation, so that white people no longer will have a single bit of land where they can look after their own interrests. Arabs coming to the West are still arabs, on the side with other arabs, they don't start defending Western civilsation, they don't defend the right of jews to have a state of their own in their historical homeland, no they side with their own.

    No one else sides with white people and Western civilisation, not even westerners themselves. So as westerners pay for muslims to become the majority in Europe in less than 50 years, the fate of white people and Western civilisation soon will be a thing of the past. All you sucidal leftwing lunatics, you are worth nothing, and you will get what you deserve one day, just wait and see, and when you wake up it will be to late. Worthless scum!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mysterion-Rules/100002309602370 Mysterion Rules

    wow.. Your racism and ignorance is seriously disgusting.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Mysterion-Rules/100002309602370 Mysterion Rules

    hahahahahaha "read your Bibles!" hahahahahahaha

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Neville-Jones/1505414253 Neville Jones

    wwooo there, I think you have some built up hate which is not healthy, if we all think like this then there is no chance that the human race will survive, or the maybe there is no reason for humans to service! Maybe evolution will produce then next with higher thinking that is less emotional and less driven to territorial gains, hatred to other and warring.

  • http://www.facebook.com/ShahabSaqib Sufi Shahab Saqib

    The question is why???? why Palestine ? they do not belong there so why are they there??? If they were expelled or thrown out why Palestine ? would any of u allow any cast to come and settle down in your country ? the only answer which makes sense here is that they want the holy place , they want Jerusalem, they want their respect,and last but not least they want their holy place.I am shocked how they covered that all, a man comes and just manages to enter any of your room in your house and then proclaim that it is his territory ???? but u know what, this issue is going to settle and it will settle catastrophically.A war will end it and we vow that we won't stop unless we won or there remains none of us :O

  • http://twitter.com/ritadenisefox3 RitaKanevskix

    It's funny how this documentary is subconsciously made in favor of Palestine, out raging and completely bang out of order. WHO'S EMPIRE WAS THE KINGDOM OF ISRAEL (B.C.)?DAVID, SOLOMON.. IT WAS LATER SEPARATED INTO THE KINGDOM OF JUDAH WHO SURPRISE SURPRISE WAS ALSO A JEW.
    The name Palestine itself derives from “Plesheth”, a name that appears frequently in the Bible and has come into English as “Philistine”. Plesheth was a general term meaning rolling or migratory given to Greeks by the Romans
    study your history before you hit out with your own imaginative "kickass" facts

  • http://www.facebook.com/NANDGated NAND Gate

    hahaha I love how crazy this is

  • http://www.facebook.com/NANDGated NAND Gate

    hahahahahaha YHWH. Well, the Flying Spaghetti Monster said give the land back.

  • http://www.facebook.com/NANDGated NAND Gate

    lol where?

  • http://www.facebook.com/NANDGated NAND Gate

    Shouldn't the jews have to at least provide genetic proof that they are semetic (if we accept that people from 2000 years ago CAN return and steal land "back").

    Because from what I can see - "jews" appear to be white.

    Semetic ppls are not white.

    This will be the nail in the coffin of the "Jewish" ancestry issue.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Linda-Beard/100000152394226 Linda Beard

    Israel belonged to the Jewish/Israelites all the way back to Abraham, Joshua, Caleb, David, etc. This land was given to them by God Himself. If someone has a problem with this, let them talk to God and ask Him because all the land of the earth belongs to God and He sets up kings and kingdoms and He takes them down. Ask Him and see what He says. Oh by the way, if you don't know who God is, well, The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob and all the believers of Jesus Christ. Read the Bible and you'll know, it's God's Word given to us directly from Him.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_TNUXPYBROSE2HJWSSOTYRD22WM sam12

    You are so incredibly ignorant my friend. BTW, what the hell do white people have to do with this conflict to begin with? Were you high when you posted this?

  • MohammedSafwan

    As Salam Alaikum Saqib,

    The position of Palestine is a legal one. It is one of the darkest moment in history. With keeping this in mind we must try to understand the issue properly and come to a possible solution...which is of course very hard to find and almost impossible in current time as we muslim's have been stereotyped & have become football of the world.
    Have patience and please for the sake of Allah & for the sake of Muslims, Jews & Christians; don't speak silly and say a war will end it all. Nobody has the right to do such prophecy and the future is in the had of Allah.Verily the future belongs to Allah.
    When we speak such things like war & catastrophic end of all it re-affirms in the heart of our non-muslim the stereotype image our enemy has created of us in this world.
    Remember the best act of satan is to put discord between relations. We the people of earth are victim of this act....so please understand...

    Thanks :-)
    Safwan

  • MohammedSafwan

    Dear Jews,

    Why just Israel, the whole world belongs to Jews & to others too. Just for the sake of argument if we consider that the land belongs to "JEWS ONLY" there are a few questions & answer the Jews themselves should ask & answer:

    (1)Who are Jews?
    Are they a certain tribe that was "Chosen" to rule just over a piece of land? How does this tribe then establish its connectivity to that piece of land?

    (2)What was the covenant of Allah or YHWH with the Jews?

    (3)Who broke the Covenant First? Is it Allah or the tribe of Israel?

    (4)Why was the covenant broken?

    (5)Why was not the party who broke the covenant reconcile?

    (6)If the party is reconciling the covenant now why are they doing so after 2000 years? what happen to this party between this period?

    (7)What was wrong with the Jewish people that they continuously stayed in the land of Jerusalem in this period of 2000 years & never ever lay such claim to the exclusiveness of "Jerusalem for Jews"?

    (8)Why do Jews in the past have such a peaceful history only with the muslims? but now simply cant tolerate their Semitic brothers?

    (9)What & Who turned the whole relation between the Jews & the muslims sour all of a sudden?

    (10)Up-to what extend do the Jews want to define their border of Jewish land? especially when the Jewish establishment has since 1948 continuously re-defined the border again & again day by day ceaselessly?

    (11)What in mercy plan do the "Chosen People of YHWH" have for the previous dwellers of that land(before the return of the tribe of Israel)?

    (12) Why do not the Jews for a moment think that the Zionist politicians are simply playing with the Jewish emotions & are actually obsessed with the sense of acquisition and have gone to such heinous extend of exterminating the previous dwellers of that land by stealing?

    (13)Why do not the Jews think for a moment what will they reply to their conscious about this extermination act? will simply the idea some did it for us & so we will do it for others" justify?

    (14)Do the Jews think for a moment what will happen The Day when YHWH might ask the Jews about what they did in the world?(although I know Jews believe that Jews will go to heaven un-questioned...but just Fathom that thought for a moment)

    (15)What if the same people who are so keen on settling all Jews in one land "the so called Land of Jews" one day turn up (when finally all Jews are concentrated in one place) & initiate the Second Holocaust - which might actually turn out to be the total extinction of Jews?

    (16)The Jews are so keen in claiming the land in middle-east for themselves exclusively with the power that they have today, but what about all those legal battles that Jews are losing to acquire back their actual legal properties in Poland?

    I am quiet sure someday every Jew must be ready to Answer these questions....the better thing is they start questioning themselves today & start giving the answers to it...
    I fear the day when The Almighty will ask these questions...

  • minority_support

    you are a very silly woman...i would read the bible, but then again i may as well just read my niece's book of bedtime stories because there is probably more truth in that...if you knew any facts, rather than just religious mythology, you'd know that what your saying is stupid...the land belongs to no one, and the philistine people were there long before the jews...plus,if god gave the land to you, then why are you having to steal it back off innocent people using bombs, guns and tanks??? surely if the land belongs to god, and he really wanted the jews to have it, he would just make it so...your comment is as offensive as it is retarded...i have an idea for you, put down the bible and pick up a book based on fact before you go posting on websites...

  • minority_support

    i think you need to go back to school...your grammar, spelling and history are all pretty terrible...clearly too much time spent reading the torah, and not enough time reading text books...by the way, if you want to make a serious comment, then quote a factual text...i wouldn't come on here quoting harry potter and expecting people to accept it...

  • Achems_Razor

    Talk to your god? sure, give me the website, phone number, address, anything, but telepathically won't quite cut it. The gods are all in the mind I say, means nothing.
    Your god gave nothing to nobody especially real estate.

    Read the bible? Already did but I'd rather read marvel comics means the same thing, all fairy tales.

  • minority_support

    no, we don't read the bible, we read text books and history books with truth and facts...you are the fool my friend...you support genocide on the basis of a book with as much fact as a disney movie...if you are truly part of the "chosen few", then i am seriously glad that i wasn't chosen...

  • Guest

    In a series of books written by Jews are you told that Jews are the chosen people...
    You don't find anything about that just a little suspect?

    ( And my wife's 1/2 Jewish, so... don't come accusing me of Anti-Semitism. )

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Christopher-Smith/1052686750 Christopher Smith

    First I would like to tell of my background: my mother's family are Jewish so it can be said that I am somewhat biased on the issue of Isreal. However my family have been secular ever since they came to Briton about 100 years ago, and I do not consider myself to be a Jew, and infact I have more Muslim friends than Jewish ones. I am above a humanitarian.

    I see no reason to doubt that at least the mojority of people calling themselfs Jews are ethnicly semitic. Non Jews have hardly ever converted to Jewdaism and Jews have mostly married in their community, this has been the case ever since the Jews left Palestine. And we know that Jews did once live in Palestine because the Romans say so.

    Anyway the right of Isreal to exist is infact irrelevant to the situation because Isreal DOES exist now, and it has the power to support itself. It is a waste of time to try and defeat Isreal, and doing so is only hurting Palestinians more! If the Arab world couldn't defeat Isreal 60 years ago how can they expect to now? It was Isreal and Briton's fault that the Palestinian people are in a bad situation in the first place, but keeping themselfs there are the Palestinian people just as much as the Isrealies.

    It has to be up to the side in the weaker position (Palestine) to accept some losses to end the war, and they are the ones with the interrest in doing so. Isreal is perfectly happy if Palestine continues to be a non existant state made up of the memories and dreams of refugees, this can only makes Isreal stronger as we keep seeing with all the illigal land grabs. There is no one who can deny them the ability to do this; but if Palestine accepts a treaty, even with the losses that entails Palestine will actually exist, and it will have a voice! The people should have the right to no longer be refugees and this hostility to any treaty is denying them that right!

    If peace reigns it may even happen that Isreal allows Palestinians to return to their homes in what is now Isreal. Is that not what Palestinians say they want?!

  • eyalos eyalos

    Not very smart are you?
    I am sure that if the bible was written in English your Logic was rock solid, however, it was written in Hebrew so basically your comment is worthless so as your knowledge and understanding of linguistics
    Man! i heard a lot of BS about Israel in my life but this thread Tops it all.
    Israel is doing whatever is necessary to survive, good or bad, that's a matter of perspective the side of the fence you are at. i really dont care what you all think about us here in this small piece of land, but please for the love of God/allah/Christ and the flying spaghetti in the sky, try to say smart things or at least shut the hell up if you have nothing smart to say!

  • tanach

    It always amazes me when people speak of the 'genocide of the palestinians' by Israel- during the genocide of European Jews by the Nazis the population of Jews decreased by 6,000,000 over 12 years- during the genocide in Rwanda of Tutsi by Hutu the population of Tutsi decreased by approx 800,000 in a few months- that is genocide! when the State of Israel was formed an estimated 1.2 Million 'palestinian' Arabs lived there, since then the 'palestinian' Arab population has increased 5 fold! Some of the policy of the Israeli government may be extreme but to call it genocide is as ridiculous as the idea of a democratic Arab state.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ES5YFURR5VOTKTGHD4PIVYXPVI John

    The world would be a better place if people would stop clinging desperately to their cherished beliefs. Unless we can, once and for all, regurgitate that poison we were fed at mothers knee (Russell), and give up old conditioned emotions and conditioned ways of thinking, and learn to face the reality of life without coloring it with lifelong biases, then the world will always be full of men who imagine it is their duty, even their right, to HATE everyone who sees things differently. Whether or not the plight of the Palestinians meets your personal definition of genocide, the sixty year long campaign against them by Israel -- 60 years of taking their land, destroying their homes, forcing them into what are essentially giant concentration camps called Gaza and the West Bank, and even murdering old men, woman and children -- is among the most horrible crimes against humanity in human history. Perhaps not equal in scale to the Nazi holocaust, but every bit as equal in terms of misery, horror, and ghastly criminal behavior. And when the Palestinians resist and fight back, Israel and its ally the U.S. label the Palestinians who resist, fight for their homes, fight for their dignity, fight for their freedom, and fight for their very lives, as "terrorists". All because some powerful Jewish people actually believe that, thousands of years ago, God, the invisible magic man in the sky, promised the Jews, Gods specially chosen superior beings, the land which by any unbiased and honest accounting belongs to the Palestinians. The fact that even in the 21st century humanity has not yet evolved beyond the point where they would allow such ignorance and such brutality as displayed by Israel leaves me feeling less than optimistic about the future of the human race.

  • Guest

    This documentary is Ok. A voice was given to both sides. But I just don't understand how any Jew/Israeli could still feel pride....living in a state such as Israel with it's not so great History...It doesn't make any sense...Where is the sense of Shame? Are they Humans too?!.

  • tariqxl

    would any of u allow any cast to come and settle down in your country ?
    well I'm from England so its safe to say we would.
    You would want a war? One in which you may even lose your own life, why? It really doesn't matter which part of this rock you was born on we are all born on the same rock we are a 7 billion strong family of brothers, sisters, cousins, mothers and fathers 96% of the worlds population today descends from Genghis Khan (apparently). Scientists evenly believe they have traced the mitochondrial Eve, the mother to us all. Why people still think in terms of flags, religions and borders (an imaginary line in the dirt) I'll never figure out. People like you have got a choice evolve or be left behind with the rest of the knuckle draggers.

  • tariqxl

    People like you are the doom of mankind.... but I'm starting to understand this territorial way of thinking because frankly I can't believe I'm forced to share a planet with the likes of you. If you've ever had an intelligent thought run through your brain it would brake a land speed record.

  • tariqxl

    Ahhh but then it all comes down to whether or not you believe in YHWH because if not your condoning mass murder based on the words of a mortal man.

  • tariqxl

    Most Europeans have Arabian DNA as do Israelis, so that Arabic snob to you tah.

  • tariqxl

    Jezz! I always read the comments before watching the doc and after reading all this I can't even be bothered to watch the program now! Tell you what... Despite the fact that we're all people we clearly hate one another so why don't we all launch a full nuclear exchange... global annihilation. We'll make it so even bacteria won't survive then there will be peace on earth. Must be gods plan!

  • WTC7

    This is a good documentary, pretty much well balanced. Well, it did not include the many commissions on Palestine throughout the years, which all warned of the Arab opposition to the establishment of the Jewish state. It also omitted to mention & evaluate the British political games in that period. But still, overall, I think it presented some established historical facts in a rather unbiased manner.

  • HonestGuy85

    I would expect this type of biased documentaries to be broadcated on Arab television and not BBC. I happen to talk to a Palestinian lady who lives in Beirut, she fled Haifa in 1948 but not because she was afraid of the Jews, but because she said the Arab leaders promised them that they could be back a few days later to a land cleansed of Jews. Most of the Palestinians still wait for it to happen. If Jews wanted to get rid of the Palestinians, then how come 20% of the Israeli population are Palestinians? Another good question is, why are the 20% Jewish population of the West Bank the obstacle to peace? Why is it right for the Palestinians to have a Jewish free land, but not for the Jews? Hypocricy doesn't bring solutions!
    I also don't recall this documentary telling the story of 1,000,000 Jewish refugees from the Arab world, who had to leave all of their lands and posessions and run for their lives!

  • Mark Roberts

    In regards to your comment AbdelZ.
    That is the biggest load of crap I have ever seen on the internet. The Jews have been abused for hundreds of years, and it is only right for them to have their own country. Not only that, but the Jews lived in Israel first; just read the Bible. And furthermore, everybody wants what they can not have. The Palestinians want Israel because it was taken away from them. Have you seen what Israel once WAS? It was a hell-hole with nomads floating around. A complete dump. When the Jews came in, guess what? It is all cleaned up and has an unbelievably high standard of living. The 20% of the Palestinians who are there now are only smart. They don't want to live in a dump. Israel is here to stay, the Bible predicted that. So get used to it.

  • AbdelZ

    Second reply :

    Do you ask yourself who used to persecute jews ? christianity that was/ is inherently ...antisemistic , who paved the way for fascism & nazism

    while jews were mostly treated so well & with human dignity under the famous islamic tolerance that guaranteed the freedom of belief of jews & christians : see islamic Spain in that regard for example & see how the christians or the christian inquisition, especially under that barbaric terrible inhumane Spanish inquisition when christians took spain over again : see how christians then used to treat muslims & jews while muslims in Spain for example used to treat both jews & christians so well ....

    So, go preach this disgusting hypocrit lecture of yours to some ignorant populist folks of your own church then :

    what a silly pathetic tragic-hilarious **** of yours .

  • AbdelZ

    where is my first reply to Mark Roberts , please ?

    I thought the freedom of speech was held high in here

  • Achems_Razor

    @AbdelZ:

    Your first reply is on, (read the comment policy above) very simple!

  • AbdelZ

    Ok, sorry , sir :

    I just despise hypocrit lectures preachings

    I will try to do my best to improve my behavior .

    I just hope you will continue to hold the "sacred " freedom of speech very high all ways because the freedom of speech is certainly no one way street & must not be turned into a freedom of hate , demonization, ridicule, insults.....................

    What i said about christianity & zionism were no insults , no hate , no demonization, no ridicule ...just facts .

    Thanks again for this great enlightening site i do appreciate very much every single day God makes .

    Have a nice day indeed , best wishes .

    Thanks, appreciate : my apologies once again .

  • Another21stCenturySlave

    white folk just cant handle the truth. alhow, i can understand that it is tough to accept, that u are infact the devils spawn. sooner u acknowledge it, the sooner we can rid our souls of satan ..n wud ya's please stop spttin ur sectarian bile on this decent non-bias site..white cristian incase u wonderin

  • wt1776

    Listening to all this back and forth religious nonsense makes it clear that mankind will always hate others of different opinion and belief. If apes could read they would be embarrassed that humans evolved from them.

  • Roshan George

    yes religious minorities in the islamic countries are living in paradise, of course they don;t mind being persecuted by muslims, they don;t mind having their daugthers and wives and sons murdered by muslims in the name of Islam.

    Btw did you live in this so called paradise of Islamic Spain cause you talk like you have seen this place with your own eyes
    Trust me what the muslims are getting today they deserve completely

  • Roshan George

    The arabs deserve this they could have lived in peace but they wanted everything and wanted to deny Jews everything hence Jews had no choice but to destroy Arabs. Plus the Arabs are stupid and dumb by nature

  • AbdelZ

    Unbelievable :

    Unbelievable that such criminal apologetic disgusting racists like yourself do exist nowadays : you shouldn't have survived the last century along with the rest of the racists , fascists ....
    Arabs deserve to be dstroyed , are dumb stupid which is the same haha : well : if we would apply this extremely stupid racist "logic " of yours , we can say that jews deserved to be exterminated by the nazis as well : does that ring a bell in your stupid head : hope so .

    History had shown that the zionazis were / are the ones who wanted/ want everything , they will end up with nothing at the end of the line , their illegal racist apartheid war-criminal exclusive ..."state" will be abolished as israeli historian Shlomo Sand once said in his bestseller :

    Quote :
    "The only solution to the palestinian -israeli conflict is to abolish the jewish state " End quote

  • AbdelZ

    Folks :

    Try to say something intelligent or just have the decency to just shut up , please .

    Emotions cloud your judgement as well as blind hate .

    Well, even the so-called reason is just a form of subjectivism = subjectivism rationalized .

    Rational thought is also dynamic , relative, historic & cultural : see all those biological, psychological , social , cultural, political, economic , ideological & other "mechanisms " that shape human thought thus human behaviour , science is not yet through with, if ever

    Intuition is a higher form of intellect at the other hand though

    See the psychology of thought : feeling , emotion, intuition ...do influence deeply human thought, so

    Thanks, appreciate indeed

  • AbdelZ

    Read Edward Said' "Orientalism " great book , guys : a great book that's been getting more accurate & actual by the day , explaining how you still view the "East " via your western imperialistic "superior " racist unscientific lenses & self-projections .

    You , "westerners ", haven't changed a bit , for the most part at least, since the former western imperialism worldwide : you just confirm the conclusions of Said every single day while we have been experiencing western & israeli neo-imperialism as well ...

    Even the 911 is an inside job or a false flag operation , so

    Congratulations .

  • AbdelZ

    To whom it may concern :

    There is one recent comment of mine here missing that supposedly needed approaval form the selective censership here : see the filthy racist comments you did allow here below instead i had to respond to .

    Please try to be fair .

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Lidor-Atari/839171599 Lidor Atari

    your just talking nonsense.
    the truth is that for almost 60 years we build this place from nothing to be a great country, and they still don´t want to participate in a DEMOCRACY like a normal, human rights loving country. the last time they had a poll where everybody could put their voice and vote, the HAMAS has won the elections after threatning the voters (search for it), and if you know a little bit than you´d remember the name HAMAS as the polital movement who set an official goal to destroy israel. their words, not mine.
    now tell me that dosent give you a boost to give them right away a land right above you head.

    in 1948 the arab people who lived here, but never ruled here or were apart of one group, because they came from the countries around palastine, such as Egypy, Surria, Jorden etc. (and fought against each just like agains jews or britians) , all combined for the first time in their history and ATTACKED the jews who´s just recieved an approvment from the nations of the world (maybe your country´s included, check up on that) because they just couldnt deal with getting only HALF OF THE COUNTRY. how ironic life is.
    of course they had help from the arab countries around, who didn´t really participate in the vote, most of them werent very democratic back than... so, like you see, we still won, but of course didn´t throw anybody away.
    We are until today a Paradox - the only country that is build on religion (a land for the Jews) but have EQUAL RIGHTS for everybody aslong as he is an ISRAELI CITIZEN. that means that if your an arab who lives in israel, you get the same rights whether your a muslim, a christian or a druze. and you know what? you've heard about MInority's scolarships? well.... we can tell you alot about that here. how about TEX help?? don't worry for their condition.

    Gaza and yehuda and shomron are places where you will find those arabs that lived here since 1948 and in the meantime embrassed the title "Palastines", who never had and never will, probably, accept the existence of israel and wished to be a apart of it. defenitley not in a democracy.

    the reason for that is religious as well - they do not accept to live a jew country, because they are muslims.

    now days, were in 2012 already.
    i personally had, have and will always meet people that are also arabs, and muslims, but are very nice people. those man and woman call themselfs "Israelis".
    its a democracy, an whether your jew or not, you only get 1 vote, so their truley equal... and their religion is their private choise, like their sex preference.

    but even if you hung on that religius stuff, and don't want to be apart of a jew country if your a muslim even though you'll get the same conditions - alright, youre entitled to.

    but for Israel's safty, things needs to change from their side first.
    establish a democracy, enough with those "free fighters", it's just terrorism for attantion (supposed to lead to conversation, but they have nothing new to say, so far) free yourself first, education, sports, some of it is on the way and some goes backward.

    so many logical things needs to run here, and israel is definitley dont enjoy all of this, but don't be quick minded and go immiedly rooting for THE UNDERDOG.

    i really can unserstand your feeling which is sympathy for the weaker one because your want to strenghten him to make a more EQUALE AND FUN TO WATCH fight, but really....
    they are not those broke and innocent characters you image... not the regular underdog you get to see in sports.

    most of the blame in what happened is on their heads because basicly, those who stayed here and now call themselfs israelies, arent sorry for staying and if they feel that people look at them differently it's not because we have something against arabs, like we have something agains the arabs who for 60 years already still don't acknowledge our right to have a land.

    no place in the world has been given for free and at one point, every place was fought on and somebodys won the fight. the word i'm thinking now is... hyppocrits. don't be.

    sorry for my spell, havent done that for a while.

  • http://profiles.google.com/im4u85 muhammad abdul

    If the same happens to you or to your country, will you accept it?
    for example i expell you from your home and i may that that your wife is wife. then will you accept it

  • http://www.facebook.com/lastlastword Harvis Weekly

    This documentary is doing its best to rewrite the history of Israel's existence. Imagine going to a casino, winning a small amount of money, but also losing all the money you brought with you. You even sell your watch, a family heirloom, in order to cover your loses. With not enough left to gamble you have to leave, but on the way out you insist on taking the watch you either sold or traded because it has been in your family for generations and,although you have been reckless, the casino should give it back to you because it was yours and, being who you are, in your and your families mind, it must always remain so. To the Arab and Islam no one else has rights and everything belongs to them, especially land.

  • http://www.facebook.com/marie.bigaud.9 Marie Bigaud

    Imagine Big Brother coming to your house and saying that you do not need the "extra" space. It should be shared with a family that is deserving of it. From now on, you will need to give that "extra" bedroom to this very nice family. Although that nice family is entitled to this home, as it was owned by their ancestors years ago, they will only take the extra bedroom for now. End of discussion. Guess what? The new occupants turned that chabby bedroom into paradise. It is now beautiful, well maintained and clearly superior in style to the other chabby bedrooms which you and your family are occupying. How would you react? The constant presence of these people in your home will probably move you to madness. Yes? That is the case of the Palestinians people. Although I am a big fan of the Jewish people, I understand and appreciate the agony of the Palestinians people. I wish I had an answer but I honestly don't see an end to this madness.

  • abdulwalee

    Democracy is a Lie The Yahoot are Wolves and In time they will pay for their evil Prophet Muhammad fortold about it

  • flexi28

    i certainly wouldnt be happy if a heap of zionist refugees came wandering into my land n said according to this book (bible) which is thousands of years old and may or may not be true this is our land blah blah blah. and then a third party (british) try n divide the land that isnt theirs evenly????? dont think so. the jews have occupied land that isnt theirs end of story. the arabs just went the wrong way about claiming it back. now the state of israel is oppressing and killing thousands of people and no one gives a f**k about it. pretty sure when this happened to poland,czechoslovakia etc in world war 2 everyone was up in arms. whats the difference between the jews being oppressed by hitler and the palestinians being oppressed by the jews?????

  • http://www.facebook.com/ethan.tremblay.583 Ethan Tremblay

    Who were the first people to occupy Jerusalem? That would be early christians. So if you want to be accurate the arabs and assyrians invaded the christian people first. You cant only go back 60 years and say this is where it went wrong. So technically the land should be given back to early christians. Either way, both sides need to be peaceful and not let religion kill.

  • rufusclyde

    Brilliant stuff Marie. The Palestinians were just too shabby. The fact that they were hustled into the closet, after a few were killed, probably made them really jealous of the paradise in the other room, which was most of the house. I'm a big fan of the Jewish people too. And that doesn't mean I have a stereotype of people as diverse as Albert Einstein and Mayer Lansky.

  • http://www.facebook.com/ossama.nahdi Ossama Nahdi

    How old is christianity? we're not talking about Jerusalem, which is very old and by no means built by christians anyways, but about the land: palestine, who are the indigenous people of palestine? well they are the people who lived in this land long before the exodus (if it ever happened) : The Philistines.

  • rufusclyde

    The whole story is tragic, and does not seem to present much reason for optimism about the future.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ian-Kirkpatrick-Van-Gaal/1004949550 Ian Kirkpatrick Van Gaal

    Modern Israel is the best and biggest weapons manufactures in the world. What's so positive about that? The get funding each year from the US to produce weapons and i can't think of how many wars they fund. What's so positive about Israel today?

  • http://www.facebook.com/rocky.racoon.334 Rocky Racoon

    something interesting:
    True Torah Jews Against Zionism - Our Mission
    The relatively new concept of Zionism began only about one hundred years ago and since that time Torah-true Jewry has steadfastly opposed the Zionist ideology. This struggle is rooted in two convictions:
    1. Zionism, by advocating a political and military end to the Jewish exile, denies the very essence of our Diaspora existence. We are in exile by Divine Decree and may emerge from exile solely via Divine Redemption. All human efforts to alter a metaphysical reality are doomed to end in failure and bloodshed. History has clearly borne out this teaching.
    2.Zionism has not only denied our fundamental belief in Heavenly Redemption it has also created a pseudo-Judaism which views the essence of our identity to be a secular nationalism. Accordingly, Zionism and the Israeli state have consistently endeavored, via persuasion and coercion, to replace a Divine and Torah centered understanding of our people hood with an armed materialism.

    True Torah Jews is dedicated to informing the world and in particular the American public and politicians that all Jews do not support the ideology of the Zionist state called "Israel" which is diametrically opposite to the teachings of traditional Judaism.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/KUSK7PMSEAPWULA2ID3YCGZYXA earlp

    Israeli isn't here to stay because all things are impermanent. This is a Buddhist teaching that Jews and Christians don't understand. It took a 100 years for the Arabs to drive out the crusaders out. Saladin came along and did the job. Israeli probably has about 60 years left before it disappears form the face of the earth.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Eric-Cantey/100000298089240 Eric Cantey

    did you say christians were first in jerusalem?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_HFEB6ZRR2NZUDTOCGZKWJKQQLY Dominique

    Linda the Jews persecuted Jesus and wanted the Romans to crucify Jesus/.....The land is not theirs anymore and they are not the chosen people.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1071063980 Pavel Hanžl

    People of Czechoslovakia would be glad if everyone was up in arms when Hitler occupied their land, but that is not true at all. I suggest you to look a bit into the beginning of the WW2 so you can refrain from making those mistakes again. I would like to point out that the Jews actually bought the land from the Palestinians, not occupied it at first, as many people seem to believe. They occupied the land only after the war between Palestinians and Jews began - which in that days international law of war - was very much acceptible and common. There is of course blood and mistakes on both sides and before they can acknowledge that, I am afraid there will not be a peace for too long.

  • LAR60

    I think , after watching this depressing programme, that part if not a great deal of the problem being faced is that for some reason these religions consider the bricks and mortar of Jerusalem to be 'Holy'. I have no problem as a Christian minded person in saying that this is not so. Places and items are being endowed with supernatural characteristics by all the concerned religions. A tree, a brick, a cave, anything you care to mention, cannot be Holy. Only a person's inner self has the ability to be Holy.
    Jesus carried his cross along the Via De La Rosa. jesus was holy, not the street or the cross he bore.
    Mohammad preached under a tree or in a building. He was Holy, not the tree or the building.
    Moses spoke with The Creator on the mountain. He was Holy, not the Mountain.
    Perhaps once you take the materialistic and worldly obsessions out of all these great religions, perhaps then we might concentrate on what the messages from our God is about.
    Who can honestly say that, after all the blood which has been spilt in 'Religious conflicts', the very person who holds human life so dear (our Creator) is happy with us.
    The most important thing in existance in this finite universe of ours is the Human Being, and no one - NO ONE - has the right to end a life, especially in the name of any God.

  • http://twitter.com/DMacaoidhS Deborah Macaoidh

    That would be Via Dolorosa.

  • LAR60

    I stand corrected, debs, much obliged

  • jazzdawg

    Call me naive. Heres what you do. Draw a circle around Jerusalem, like they have done at Vatican city. Call it the City of Abraham, and share its religious significances between Christians, Jews, and Islamist as equal custodians, under the security of the UN. Then draw a line from there east to west. The south becomes the state of Palestine, and the north becomes the state of Israel. Then secure your boarders, encourage tourist, respect human rights, and become peaceful people. Religion can not solve this problem. They are the problem.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/T3ZMJ3E2NBU5QZ57YQM2EENRZY Sandra

    Great movie showing both sides of this long-rooted and maybe still existing 1948 War and its roots

  • IIE_Nath

    Well said

  • lifeofliberty

    By your reasoning then, the Bible cannot be "holy" either, since it is only a book, and carries the same equal status as a "tree, brick or cave, or anything you can mention".

    Although these things are natural and created not by man at all (easily verifiable), the Bible itself isn't a natural creation at all.

    Created by men who chose what would be included and what wouldn't (the majority of written documents were excluded), the Bible testifies only of itself and the stories contained within.

    This is hugely significant, because it means that the circular reasoning found within the Bible is being utilized as "proof" of virtually everything Christians believe, including the real world around them, all to be filtered and interpreted through the lens of the Bible.

    This creates a seriously flawed acceptance of our reality and has been behind much of the violence in the world. The very same can be said of the Koran.

    All notions of God and faith in Christ are derived exclusively from the proclamation found in the Bible. This is not "proof" and never has been, it is simply circular reasoning.

    Serious research will uncover tens of thousands of errors and omission and contradiction in the Bible revealing its entirely man-made origins. The creation of Christianity then is simply a fabrication and cannot be taken seriously by reasoned men. The same can be said of the Koran and Mohammed.

    None of these books make any true sense of the world or of actual history, or should be taken as evidence of anything (including what is "holy" or not, or what is the true religion or not), including the "inner holiness" you allege. All these thoughts are being entirely interpreted by you through the lens of the flawed Bible and therefore, are subject to scrutiny and question.

    The only "message from God" that can possibly be derived then is that there really is no "message from God" at all, since the very notion of God exists solely upon the interpretations of these man-made flawed books.

  • Nothing_Is_Real

    I cannot understand why the Arabs have to pay the price for what the Germans did. The Jews should have been brought to Germany to start their state or country. As I see it the Jews became the Nazis and did to the Arabs what the Germand did to them. And what a surprise where there is a war there is a " Bush" and where there is a " Bush" there is big money funding both sides and big " PROFITS" . All that we see is big world banks doing business as usual, create a war, profit from the war, and create the media to blame one side or the other. In this case the Arabs are the scape goats and now we know they will be made the scape goats again in a big smoke screen called 911.

  • LAR60

    Hello there. Nice to hear from you.

    The Bible, the Koran or the Torah (?), as objects to be held in the hand, I personally do not believe can be holy in the sense that it can have a soul (if you believe you have a soul in the first place) and the same goes for anything else I mentioned. As a Christian I view holiness in this manner, broadly speaking :- if you go through life doing good for people, caring for people, being the best you can without harming others, contributing to the world in general in what most of civilisation might consider to be a good way, then that's as near a state of holiness as I can imagine. It doesn't matter to me whether that particular person believes in a God or not. Holiness is a STATE. Objects don't perceive the world around them, therefor they can't contribute of their own free will. They can't decide to do right or wrong of their own accord. I've never read the Koran or Torah, but i have read bits of the Bible. Correct, the book you hold in your hand cannot, in my opinion be classed HOLY, but the words written within are a different matter, whether I or you belive that or not. Words can convey what are in someones heart and I class that as a form of Holiness or unholiness, whatever the case may be. In some ways it's like the pistol. People say get rid of guns because they are evil. In reality, they are nothing more than lumps of metal. The eveil lies within the person who pulls the trigger. That's the point of what I was trying to say.
    Man has corrupted these words and, as you say have omitted some altogether for his own ends. If you take any of the "holy books" and read what's in them, then yes, you'll find flaws in the telling of stories and the interpretations of some of the meanings by the characters, but the words, again generally, are fundementally on the side of what most people would call good. Always remember that a great deal of the bible was written for simple people. They had to be told things in such a way that they would be understood. In otherwords, the language of the day. If it was being written today they'd probably use text nessages to get the point across, or use soccer analogies because of it's popularity. We, today, aren't expected to accept at face value things like the world took six days to make, or that there actually was an Adam and Eve. Simple basic word of mouth stories told thousands of years ago for simple basic people. Now, while one man might look at the Bible and say "Nonsense" another might say, "Yes, some of it is, but some of it is based in fact and truth and more than a few of those mentioned can be verified by other sources as having actually lived and carried out certain actions. Not all, but some have independently." Another might believe everything their particular book says without question. Of the three, it's the last man that worries me. He is the fanatic. He is the one, as far as I'm concerned, who reads " an eye for an eye" and decides right there and then that his God wants him to blind others, completely overlooking the fact that his God asks for total respect of others and that one person should never harm another. People always have and always will distort the past, be it religion or politics or whatever. I have never taken the Bible as proof, and I'm a catholic. I'm a catholic because I delved into what I'd been told. For a good part of my life I had turned my back on all religions, as well as all politics, because I couldn't believe a word anyone was telling me. Not until I really got into it for myself when I got older did I begin to believe that there might just be something other than what we can see and feel and touch. Organised Religions in their current form are not perfect, I think we'd all agree, but they aren't bad to be getting on with, as far as the message is concerned. However, the authorities and some of those who work in the churches are a completely seperate issue, for me. I believe that some people get this mixed up. The Church is the people, the world membership. The Church is the belief. The Church is not the man who wears the collar or is elected Pope. These men WORK for the CHURCH. The Church (Christian Church) would survive without priests and bishops etc, as I believe would the other religions survive without their so-called leaders because, as I've said, my view of holiness will always reside within the person, the heart, in their attitude towards others. By the way, one of the things that helps me believe that there is a God out there somewhere is science. It might seem a simple question, but it's one I doubt will be answered in my lifetime, and after all that's all the time I have. They say all of what we can see, everything in the universe came from one singularity which exploded 5 billion years ago. What they can't say is where that singularity came from?

    Subject: [topdocumentaryfilms] Re: The Birth of Israel

  • Guest

    This documentary details the struggle between the Jews of Israel and the Arabs of Palestine as the former strive to establish a Jewish homeland. In the process, both groups are marginalized, made refugees, and commit horrendous crimes against the other.

    Although I found the documentary a little dry, the subject is fascinating, especially because it is so emotionally charged. I really liked how the documentary portrayed both sides of every argument, so that no side is an obvious winner. It made the debate much more interesting because you are forced to take input from both sides and then make your own decision. Conflicts like these are hard because there is no “good” or “bad” guy, but complicated people forced to make decisions in impossible situations.

    Unfortunately, the people involved in this conflict are so entrenched in their situation that they cannot recognize the humanity of the people across the border. So many of the interviewees talk about the cruelty and inhumanity of the enemy, but then an interviewee from the “enemy” will say the same thing about the opposing force. I hope that we can all try to imagine each other complexly, and realize that we all share a common humanity that should unite us despite other divisions.

  • Brogan

    What Hitler did to the Jews was truly some very sick, sick stuff.... Actually- what Christian Europe has done to the Jews over the centuries is very sick stuff... but then, what the Jews have done reduces my sympathy for them. Given the opportunity, they treat others no better than they were treated. I understand that after centuries of being the under-dog and then being in a struggle for their survival again extermination, that the Jews would "come out swinging" for a land of their own. It's hard to be judgemental of the reactions of anyone who has been backed into a corner... but the Jews' actions have certainly been more "disgusting" than "noble". At least, post-Hitler, my sympathies are more with the Palestinians (not that they have been "angels" either).

    Having said that - I hope for the day when both sides work together, without historic resentments.... "An eye-for-an-eye leaves the whole world blind". I'm dreaming of a post-religious world where we stop looking at our differences and start recognising each other's humanity. Think we'll ever get there?

  • Brogan

    Maybe a little naive, but I get the point and like the idea of a UN controlled Jerusalem! :-) However... Remember the millions who died in the nightmare created by the British drawing a line between India and Pakistan - Hindus & Sikhs crossing into India & Muslims crossing into Pakistan - all leaving behind the lands where their families had lived for generations... so much bitterness spilling into bloodshed. More agree with your second point - religion is an issue (along with the cultural divissions that come with religion). It's a shame that religions teach their own superiority, rather than proving their superiority by loving their neighbours better. I would love to see a day when Arabs and Jews forget their differences, share the same land peacefully - working together side-by-side - 'respecting human rights & becoming peaceful people' to the betterment of all. Now, you to call me naive :-)

  • Latrobe Ligonier

    The BBC, as most British elite, are biased against the Jews. Muslims (aka "Arabs" to the BBC) have been killing Jews ("the vilest of animals", Quran 8:22) as fast as they can for 1400 years. Muslim massacres of Jews long preceded any idea of Zion or Israel. The BBC would have you ignoring this history.

    Before the Haganah blew up the Brits in the King David Hotel they called in a warning to those about to die, advising them to seek safety and leave. It's rumored that the British responded to the phone call by saying, " We don't take advice from Jews." Such is the attitude.

    The British military loathed the Balfour Declaration as did most British elite and to this day feel guilty about creating this perpetual conflict. They loathe the Jews for not losing and making it all go away. What they doesn't understand is that the same battle would be fought even if there was no Israel and no Lord Balfour. BBC, you may now forgive yourselves.

    And never forget, "First the Saturday people, then the Sunday people." Allahu akbar.

  • Tony Stark

    The U.N. is a joke, and anti-Semites use it as if it's some absolute governing power that settles all debates. This only confirms that man craves an absolute authority to govern over him, and that would be God, for there is no other absolute. But the U.N. is relative, weak, and overcome by angry boys with a lust for power and control and they've decided that Israel stands in their way. Those of us who support Israel will stand in the U.N.'s way and remain defiant.

  • Tony Stark

    Before the wound can heal he must suck out the poison. That process will be very painful for everyone. But keep your eye on the prize, Christ is coming, and even in the darkness his Spirit will strengthen your dry bones and bring flesh upon them.

  • jongnagy

    We're going to trust the anti-Semitic BBC for an honest documentary about the creation of Israel?

    Good promised the Land of Israel to the Jews as stated in the Bible for an eternal heritage.

    It's children have come home for good.

  • jongnagy

    There are almost as much errors in your comment as there are words.

  • jongnagy

    Send the Palestinians back to their own state —Jordan !

  • jongnagy

    I guess you were taken in by the Arab's mouthpiece Jimmy Carter who was paid by and got millions of dollars from the Saudis for his huge Carter library.

    You believe a peanut farmer?

  • jongnagy

    You have much less than that !

  • momo22790 .

    They say education is expensive these days, boy they have to see how expensive ignorance is.

  • Kenneth Hammond

    "Good promised the Land of Israel to the Jews"

    No such place as the "land of Israel" promised to anyone

    There is the land of Canaan promised to the seed of Abraham in mythology, European Jews are not the seed of Abraham, Palestinians are.

  • Kenneth Hammond

    Here is a few other mythological places, that bear no relevance to modern legal structures..

    Shangri-La

    A mystical, harmonious valley enclosed in the western end of the Kunlun Mountains. A permanently happy land, isolated from the outside world; a fictional utopian lamasery high in the mountains of Tibet. It was originated in the 1933 novel Lost Horizon by James Hilton.

    Suddene

    A country found in the Middle English romance King Horn.

    Svartálfaheimr

    The land of the Dark Elves in Norse mythology.

    Tartarus

    in Greek mythology, a pit in the underworld for condemned souls.

    Themiscyra

    the capital city of the Amazons in Greek mythology.

    Thule

    An island that was supposed to have existed somewhere in the belt of Scandinavia, northern Great Britain, Iceland, and Greenland.

    Thuvaraiyam Pathi

    In Ayyavazhi mythology, it was a sunken island some 150 miles off the south coast of India.

    Valhalla

    (from Old Norse Valhöll "hall of the slain") is a majestic, enormous hall located in Asgard, ruled over by the god Odin.

    Westernesse

    A country found in the Middle English romance King Horn.

  • Chris Winslow

    Finally I found a serious documentary about the creation of the current State of Israel.

  • David

    Nice to see someone who has got it. These people will never believe though.

  • coryn

    To believe that an omniscient, omnipotent 'God' created anything as ridiculous as this world we live in doesn't correspond to my idea of intelligence. "God" is no excuse for anything, much less a universe...... men have created thousands of 'gods and goddesses'. The Palestinians have lived on that land from the beginning and the Jews are killing them and saying a "God' told them to do it. Please.....

  • coryn

    "As for the Arab refugees, he (Ben Gurion) was quite emphatic: "We must do everything to ensure they never return."" -- Ben Gurion's diary, 18 July 1948

    "There was no such thing as Palestinians. It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them. They did not exist." -- Golda Meir, 1969, Sunday Times, 15 June 1969

  • B12

    ur comment above seems to say that religion is the driving force of the conflict, when in realty its Zionists wanting to grab land and Palestinians who want justice and peace.
    religion i fully believe barely plays a part in this conflict. Palestinians are driven by nationalism and zionists only pretend to be jews.

  • Xwendekar

    Did anyone else notice they used the "Time Team" theme in the opening credits?

  • Jhon

    Israel is the Fourth Reich

  • Eric Lawson

    Learned a lot from this Doc. I understand the Palestinian side much more clearly now. It would seem once again Religion causes suffering and separation Peace!!

  • ameagher2 .

    Did the Palestinians tell the Romans to be nice to the Jews? - dunno. It seems though that they were both there during the Roman conquest. ... funny that.

  • ameagher2 .

    I love hearing from thirteen year old historians ... thanks for sharing. Give us a call when your world view is better formulated ... start by looking up the term "realpolitik." Cheers.

  • Wintah Mewt

    he is right.
    its similar to the case of an abused child who grows up only to abuse other children
    hey tell me when did u turn into a murderer btw???
    xD

  • Dan Courtney

    Twice during this documentary the Jewish leaders blamed the Palestinians for rejecting the original partition of the country. I couldn't help but think what the reaction would be if the Russians invaded the US and then got the UN to give them everything east of the Mississippi. How many Americans would accept such an offer?

  • coryn

    "An examination of the historical record shows that this land, inhabited continuously since the Stone Age, was under Jewish rule for only about 560 years, less than one-sixth of its recorded history. For much of the past 1500 years the Jewish inhabitants seldom numbered more than one or two thousand persons, and as recently as 1845 there were only 11,000 Jews in Palestine." -- Edward F. Henderson, American Educational Trust, 1982, in 'Maps and Mythology, What Israeli Records Reveal About the Land and People of Palestine.' The key word is 'Mythology'....
    First you have to believe that 'God' created three different religions with three different 'holy' books, which contradict one another. One 'holy' book says Jesus is the Son of God and another denies it, etc., etc.........

  • coryn

    White people the 'devil's spawn'? That's classic.... Thanks for revealing yourself as a superior being.

  • coryn

    Seriously, there is a problem with Israelis claiming that a 'God' gave them this land, and it is that there is NO god or goddess who gives away land. Period. It's fiction my friends. You want me to believe that your 'God' created three different religions, the Jews, Christians and Arabs, gave them each a 'Holy' book that tells them to kill each other, so we've had endless warfare from when time began because the humans can't agree upon what is real and what is not real. How bizarre!

    Here's what was said at the beginning: Theodor Herzl's 'Tagebuches, 1898, Vol II, p. 24: (from Maps and Mythology, E.F. Henderson, American Educational Trust:

    "We shall try to spirit the penniless population (i.e. Arab} across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly. Let the owners of immovable property believe that they are cheating us, selling us things for more that they are worth. But we are not going to sell them anything back."

    And that is the spirit of what the Israelis call their religion, is it not? A superiority cult brought about by a fictional 'Holy Book'. And why not, the Jews are simply doing what 'God' himself does so well in the Torah, is it not? 'God' divides the people that he himself created, and incites genocide by the Israelis, who put to death all the current inhabitants, except virgin girls, steal their stuff, kill their animals and destroy their vineyards. If you could only understand that this is fiction and myth, then you could understand why half the world hates you.

    Contrast the Christian, Jewish and Arab religions with Taoism or Jainism, or Shintoism, religions that aren't obligated by their God to kill indiscriminately........

  • coryn

    Completely false analogy......

  • Dan Courtney

    You're right, I forgot the religious component. It would be like ISIS invading the US and being granted half the country.

  • coryn

    Sort of, but it's all the baggage of an alleged 'Holy' book that says blah, blah, blah.... and the Jewish people believe it as if it were fact. If your god throws down hailstones to kill some old women, or an angel of your 'god' kills thousands of people, people created by the same 'god'.... You have to know that's it's all stories, myths..... but the Jewish people appear to pride themselves on believing the book. One religious book is not why thousands of people should be killed and run out of their country.

    The US in 1948 should have given the Jews Utah, or maybe Utah and Wyoming together.......

  • Dan Courtney

    I agree with you that competing religious claims are not resolvable so long as both sides claim divine sanction over the same land. So long as we have a significant portion of the population following ancient books, we're going to have these problems.

  • coryn

    Yes, it sounds much better the way you word it....... Frankly I'm just tired of all this constant killing in the world...... all my life, killing in this country, killing in that country....... If I were religious I would suspect I was already in the fiery bowels of hell the way humans treat each other.

  • ogger151

    Perfect analogy

  • Jon

    The problem with atheism is really gossip. They do not read the object of their hate and propagate bias thicker than the book or record of what they should have studied before making any comment,

    In other words, no Science Procedure was implemented by atheists like verification of data. Data collection had been accomplished by others who have toiled to translate and compile ancient text into understandable language. All atheists need to do before creating sweeping conclusions is to verify data and test the hypothesis, which in this case is either if God or Israel exists.

    The Promised Land was never given to Israel but to Abraham. Israel is the new label of Jacob after wrestling with an angel and prevailed. But the Land was actually populated by relatives, particularly Esau who is Jacob's twin. Aside from the twins who are descendants of Isaac, son of Abraham, there were other personalities that got birth rights to the same land too like Ishmael.

    A wealth of information is available on-line. Just Google the names and discover important information.

    The Genesis story was never about the beginning of the Earth as the gossip of atheists would make you believe. The plot of Genesis is to trace the root of the slaves in Egypt that Moses had been tasked to liberate. The nation of Israel was born in the Sinai desert where most, including liberator Moses, had to die because they were punished and not allowed to enter the "land promised to their ancestors,"

    Fact is there was an instance where God offered Moses and his descendants the blessing intended for the slaves. Moses rejected the offer. He thought it was strange because that would make his initial efforts negotiating with the Egyptians to release the captives inutile. I think that would make the story, then focused on Israelites hilarious.

  • coryn

    For openers...... Atheism means one thing only, and that is, 'without a belief in a 'god'..... so about all you've just said is mistaken. Your 'god' is the last in the line of thousands of gods and goddesses that men have created, following all the spirits.... the weather spirits and animal spirits that had to be conquered and controlled. So atheists don't believe in your god or the Jain god, or any god for one simple reason, there is insufficient evidence of anything supernatural. There is no trace of Moses in the desert, and to believe anything in the Torah is dangerous.
    But if you know, please tell me why 'God' waited so long to stop by and meet the Jews. For thousands of years people had been suffering, from everything, teeth, childbirth, getting eaten alive...... and where was God? Can you feel the suffering? And finally he shows up so he can commit genocide upon part of his creation who believed in 'other' gods, and to destroy their orchards and wells. Where did the 'other' gods come from. I've read the book, and I'd say it reads like a Manual for Genocide. They call it the 'ban', correct?
    If you can't recognize fiction and myth, I suggest you learn.

  • Jon

    What do you mean openers? Are you planning to FLOOD the thread with religious discourses taken from your "none of the above" movement?

    I have learned not to give too much value on what atheists say because they are normally without sound basis, They create the impression of education yet they do not read the source of their hate.

  • coryn

    Jon, I was prepared to defend the position that atheists have a more realistic view of the world than do believers of religious dogma, but what I'm hearing from you is some generalized statements about how atheists 'create the impression of education yet they do not read the source of their hate." "Do not read the source of their hate?" What could that mean? Well, my education is Physical and Cultural Anthropology, with a B.A. Degree from Univ of California, Berkeley. Allow me to digress with an example....... Remember how at Ex 2:11, Moses "killed an Egyptian and hid him in the sand." But then we read at Lev:24:17 where God says that "If anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death.", and again at Lev 24:21 God says "....but whoever kills a man must be put to death. You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the Lord your God."
    So why didn't Moses get punished? Instead he gets promoted to head of the invading army together with Joshua, and ordered to annihilate the people over there, destroy their land and property, and take home the virgin daughters.
    Again, Jon, are you sure this couldn't just be myth and stories, not reality?

  • Jon

    God chose Israel to reveal his nature and showcase divine JUSTICE. The sins of Israel led to slavery. Not all descendants of Israel became slaves. In fact, Joseph the dreamer was persecuted by his own brothers and then sold to slavery became an Egyptian governor. It can be argued that the Egyptian captivity was a direct effect of this terrible sin of the brothers to Joseph.

    Thus if you notice, the Law was specific. The choice is between a blessing and a curse. Incidentally the slaves in Egypt were guilty and they really thought that the sins of their ancestors condemned them, Fact is the slaves thought God is about to kill them in the desert, reason for more disobedience. The curse lasted for generations and the children paid with their own lives to learn the bitter lesson.

    There is also the part where Moses wrote about the Covenant reminding the people that it is really God sending blessings or punishments.

    The books attributed to Moses were the seeds of Scriptures. Yet it was never meant to be read in bits and pieces. The Law prescribes a Jubilee year for the whole community to read them in public and remind Israel about what had happened already.

    Moses failed to show God to Israel. He prophesied about Israel's disobedience and the coming of a messiah who would save them by showing them "The Way".

    Now explain to us why religious people want to remove this fact that Moses failed? Can't you understand the problem? Why attack the written account of Moses when he yields to the coming of better solution?

    The answer is you are trapped in an argument because you are a deeply religious person. You are faithfully pursuing your pre-conceived belief system and blindly defending it wrong or right.

  • coryn

    So, Jon, are you telling me it's OK for Moses to kill an Egyptian? Let me repeat this simple question for you......

    Remember how at Ex 2:11, Moses had "killed an Egyptian and hid him in the sand." But then we read at Lev 24:17 where God says that "If anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death.", and again at Lev 24:21 God says "....but whoever kills a man must be put to death. You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the Lord your God."

    Moses is a murderer.

  • Jon

    Can't you read? Moses admits he was not successful and that his system or "WAY" was not "IT". Now why even argue? Why do universities give credentials to people without common sense?

    You are lost in detail and drowning in mud.

  • Jon

    I think you should refrain from speculations when reading stories. Listen attentively to the story teller and let him finish. If you ever wonder how come Lady Justice is blindfold, it is to let her hear the case and not judge from a few details or from initial appearances.

    Modern Laws are patterned after the Laws of Moses so if you are in a university, maybe ask a law student about this question of yours. If you are home most of the time, watch TV series dealing with crime and punishment which would best give you an impression of the justice system.

    Moses was living a comfortable life as a bona fide Egyptian freeman. But like you he did not wish or wanted what happened. He left this comfortable life and had self-exile in the desert for years. Perhaps state laws do this likewise to prisoners and remove them from the comfort of their homes to a "penitentiary" or place of "repentance".

    After serving time, prisoners are pardoned. But the duration of imprisonment depends on the gravity of his crime. A law student can tell you how the gravity or intensity of a crime is comparatively measured. He will likely tell you Moses was guilty of homicide but not murder. The death was accidental. After acknowledging the work conditions, the slave driver could have been sick of hypertension or dehydration and probably too weak to die so quickly.

    In contrast the brothers who sold Joseph the dreamer to slavery were guilty of attempted murder since there was motive and method.

  • coryn

    I guess that's the way you want to see it, but I'm talking about how it is written in the Bible. Let me refresh your memory. ".....He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. Glancing this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand." Ex 2:12. And again at Ex 2:14, ".... Are you thinking of killing me as you killed the Egyptian?"
    Another curious killing by God is the case of Uzzah, at 2 Sam 6:6. The man sees the animal stumble, and fears the Ark will fall to the ground, so he reaches out and grabs the ark before it hits the ground. And God kills him for it? This is Devine Justice?

  • Jon

    You got a poor study habit. Can't you finish one issue before jumping to another? Don't confuse yourself.

    As I said, you got to ask a law student or a lawyer. Your issues are too simplistic and ignorant, almost funny. Stop filling the thread with your thinking aloud. I know it is hardest to question your made up beliefs and open up to a different paradigm. Something inside you got to die just like an egg shell must crack to allow new ideas to come alive.

    Scriptures are a collection of testimonies by witnesses. Many of them are not scholars and are quite ordinary people. Do not expect precision and updated views. Testimonies are rarely free from personal opinions that may complicate the gathering of facts or reliable data and body of evidence.

    Stick to the facts and learn to disregard mere opinions.Then after you are done learning the books or testimonies from several witnesses,you can hand in the verdict.

    Only then would you have JUSTICE, or at least give justice to what is written as Scriptures.

  • coryn

    Jon, thanks for all the much needed criticism, I don't know how I've managed for the last 77 years without your help.....

  • coryn

    "The death was accidental. "

    You don't know that , you're guessing. You make up what you want to believe, same as everyone. This is the book that supposedly was written by God, was it not? And it uses the word 'kill' three times . Same in Lev when God uses the word kill when talking to Moses. You're quibbling........
    So because of these myths the Israelis are still killing Palestinians and stealing their lands. That's my objection. The Bible is a manual for genocide. How about the angel that 'puts to death' 185,000 Assyrians at 2 Kings 19:35. Maybe that was an 'accident' too.

  • Jon

    You mean he knew the slave driver? Moses waited for the slave driver to be harsh on the slaves before the death blow? Moses was just using the Israelite as excuse to turn violent against this particular Egyptian? If the element of chance was absent then maybe it was PREMEDITATED and a well planned murder.

    Is this what you are saying?

    In contrast, the event happened at an instant. It happened by chance or by accident. Moses was just passing by when he saw the harsh treatment of the Israelite by the slave driver. He meddled and hit the slave driver fatally to stop him. In the process the slave driver died.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I think you are confused. Scriptures are a collection of "testimonies by witnesses" or TESTAMENTS. God asked Moses to liberate the Israelites from Egyptian captivity. He wrote about what happened in detail. But unfortunately Moses fell short of God's expectations and did not complete his task.

    Moses failed to communicate with God completely but still did his best to preserve the progress he had made. Israel became a nation in the desert this way. God chose Israel to let all men know his divine nature. From then on Scriptures are focused on what happens to Israel to help mankind understand divine nature.

    BTW Jews are not exactly Israel. Israel suffered a rebellion and it was split. The state of Judea broke off from the Kingdom of Israel that peaked under King Solomon. Judaism defied the original religion of Israel too, thus the name Jew.

  • forgiveyourgod

    Stop picking on Jon, at least the Abrahamists no longer believe the Earth is flat, it's a start!