Black Athena: The Fabrication of Ancient Greece

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Black Athena - The Fabrication of Ancient GreeceExamines the claims of Professor Martin Bernal who questions the assumption of the Europeans of our civilization placing instead the black Egyptians and Phoenicians at the center of the West's origins.

Black Athena examines Cornell Professor Martin Bernal's iconoclastic study of the African origins of Greek civilization and the explosive academic debate it provoked.

This film offers a balanced, scholarly introduction to the disputes surrounding multiculturalism, political correctness and Afrocentric curricula sweeping college campuses today.

In his book Black Athena, Prof. Bernal convincingly indicts 19th-century scholars for constructing a racist "cult of Greece" based upon a purely Aryan origin for Western culture. He accuses these classicists of suppressing the numerous connections between African and Near Eastern cultures and early Greek myth and art.

Leading classical scholars, on the other hand, contend that Bernal, like the 19th-century classicists he attacks, uses evidence selectively, uncritically and ahistorically to support his own Afrocentric agenda.

They argue that cultural diffusion alone can't account for the distinctive achievements of the Greeks during the Classical Period. Black Athena can help students begin to distinguish between sound scholarship and cultural bias - whether inherited from the past or imposed by the present.

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Comments and User Reviews

  • Simo

    Black people in N. America whose ancestors where slaves from central Africa claim the not only ancient Egypt, but Greece. Relay great problem whit their identity.

  • andy

    wow,a white guy writing an afrocentric book. i think theres little to no evidence of egyptian or semetic origins in greek philosopy as theres no evidence that the egyptians or semites had similar schools of philosophy espousing similiar ideas; and neither one of these had a democratic system of goverment. saying that sure there was some contact between these people through trade and stuff.

    i also think its funny basically all experts in this doc who specilize in linguistics, history, the classics, and egyptoloy refute Prof. Bernals afrocentric views.

  • Chief

    @ Simo
    All enslaved Africans in America did not come from Central Africa. Personally, my deep ancestry takes its lineage from haplogroup L1, (National Geographic Genographic Project.) My ancestors migrated from South Africa to the Nile Valley area 18,000 years ago. My most recent link is to the Temne people of Sierra Leone.

    This documentary certainly was not produced to promote Prof. Bernals thesis. There are many experts who would offer some "proofs" in support of Prof. Bernal, but they were not presented in this 'one-sided' rebuttal. C.F. Volney in "Ruins of Empires" (an 18th century publication) offers his views on the complexion and intelligence of Egyptians. This is an older piece and either way it was quite limited in evidentiary material.

  • sirk

    Well, I believe that the origins of the Western civilization can be traced even further back, back to the Big Bang... what a bull****. I think a lot of American historians have a tendency of rewriting history. But this is not history, this is a desperate try to sell a book and make some money....

  • normal

    what difference does it make ?
    we are all the same, we are all earthlings.
    It is only due to climate that our skins are different.
    Black, white, when will we be free from it all....
    I wish we were all the same shade of green ..............

  • mj

    interesting doc...
    the aryan model is more of an aberration indeed
    but athena seem to have traits of a Caucasian lady

  • Riley

    if we try to ascertain motives for why people do curious things, such as attempt to discredit the advisability of
    vaccination (recently in the news), or expropriate entire cultures (the subject of this doc), you have to
    wonder about the motivation for attention, notoriety:

    if a person promotes an outrageous notion, they may get noticed. if they dont, they certainly won't. for some people, this is more than enough of a spur to start spouting nonsense, often with evil intent. what distinguishes their nonsense from the less noticed nonsense is that it strikes a nerve, fulfills a wish, furthers an agenda.

    egoism can be a very destructive aspect of human nature, in both the large-scale and the small. think of that nasty fellow sending out anthrax packets - he had a motive, but being found-out was not part of it.

    one of the biggest conspiracies is the conspiracy business itself. they're in a plot to manufacture plots. ;)

  • science, movin in circles 4 ages

    Each of you who deny the influence african and eastern cultures didn't, almost wholly, form the basis for greek culture just look at contemporary society. Blacks have been the hardest, and most loyal fellows and workers, white guys were sitting around hoping the blacks never got guns.
    Not to mention blacks dictate our pop culture in large ways.
    I mean beauty is still primarily found in the weaker/recessive genes (we all seek to replicate ourselves), but africans can just dance, and get jiggy with it nananananana,
    while white people sit and howl like ally cats while strumming a banjo, or guitar (neither invented by a white guy)

    Heres the simple facts for my most ethnocentric fellows.
    The silk road predates most greek writing, as does much of eastern philosophy and advancements. (well at least plato)
    For example hyroglyphics, though "dense"(as said by mr. ethnocentric I pretend to read hyroglyphics in the film), predate any european writing.
    Hitler.... haha
    Actually, no other culture has really been as ethnocentric.
    Possibly due to their weaker/recessive genes. I mean Napoleon complex on a genome wide level.
    It is survival of the fittest, the fittest being that which has the highest reproductive success, and whos genes are not dominated by their mate... white guys (Jared Diamond) always choose to leave that out, but no biologist would dispute it.
    White people do not fit either of those categories, low birth rate (not even replacement level these days) and weaker genes.
    Not to mention claiming others discoveries as their own.
    Like the energy mass equivalence for instance.
    Europe went wrong with aristotle.
    Plato was great.
    Aristotle was the birth of the european ego, too good to learn from others, propagate false ideas instead.

    Get off your high horse. Personally I've grown up with two cultures. There is the "Game Theory," european side, and the "Give away" native side (give away because identifying with any material is strongly looked down upon)
    One had a communal, family orientated society and culture and maintained equilibrium with their environment for thousands of years without major violence.
    The other very egoic, and self centered and exploitative society and culture.

    I guess not everyone was kicked out of the garden of eden.

    This is reflected throughout history, and in contemporary society as well. For instance in the U.S. lots of money means status, in mexico lots of money means lack of virtue and excessive hoarding, or greed.
    Why?? well the logic behind it is those who are out of equilibrium with their environment are a virus, and should not be promoted. Those who consume more than produce.

    Smart people don't masterbate their ego, they protect their biological self, and don't fall out of equilibrium with their environment.

  • lol

    haha, wow, one woman was like, they copied egyptian names, but that doesn't offer any evidence that they copied the egyptians.

    That other guy was like, yeah the greeks learned that art from the jews, who learned it from the egyptians, but its still european art. 32:35

    Then the guy at 35:00 completely admits the greeks ripped everything off. After trying to refute it earlier.

    Personally I've read plato, and aristotle, and its all so unoriginal, they don't even claim to be the originators, plato had sacrates, aristotle plato. So what was the greeks contribution again, they were the best at ripping off the egyptians and calling it their own...
    Ha,
    I'm glad we spent more time on the egyptians in my early school. I mean it would have been weird to learn about the pedophilia and illogical conclusions before learning the right answers.

    Come on aristotle, atoms dont exist... Dohh. lol

  • Allan

    more lefties trying to trash all of Caucasian achievement I could weep sometimes

  • nego

    This entire documentary doesn't offer one shred of concrete evidence to support its initial claims. The book which inspired this documentary also fails to address the many references by ancient Greek scholars and historians to the appearance of Greeks. The appearance of Greeks in these texts, even those lost to Europe for many generations, was described as quite fair, especially in regards to the aristocracy.

  • Riley

    the sumerians were innovative in their way,
    as were the egyptians,
    as were the greeks

    its just that the greeks were foundational, in terms of
    written erudition, modernity of language, ethics, aesthetics, in short their conceptual span & prowess, in a way that is unprecedented, according to what we know of any other culture contemporaneous to or preceding them.

    the egyptians seem totemic, highly rigid, ritualized & functional in their art and writing. the greeks seem fluidly cogent. we easily understand them. the other ancient cultures seem far more remote, in comparison.

    that's why everybody wants them on their team. personally,
    i dont see any family or cultural resemblance to the egyptian culture.

    the greek statues look like white folks. yes, they show egyptian plants in some of the frescoes, make of that as much as want. they dont talk like egyptians of that time, who were priests/overlords, craftsman & bean-counters. they talk like us (modern people with the benefits of a global cuture).

    if earlier greek cultures were literate, we'd have more a developmental record, but we don't. as it is, our record of the greeks themselves is sparse, but compared to other related or preceding cultures, enormous.

    the question of HOW they developed such sophistication once a record of their meditations arises is something i find fascinating.

    these people must have spent a LOT of time talking and thinking at a very high level, in preliterate times.

    --------------

    the black nationalists, though, dont seem to think nearly
    as well as those ancients whom they claim as their cultural beneficiaries.

    i would bet a dollar african-africans are not a big part of this movement. at least, none of the people spouting that
    line had african accents. they all appeared to from the u.s.

    had to chuckle at the yahoo 'lecturing' the crowd & stumbling over the names of the pharoahs during his spiel. it seemed he was encountering them for the first time. the dumb leading the blind.

    history should be, as much as we can achieve, our best reconstruction of what is - it should reflect well-established conclusions, common-sense, observations which do not subvert the evidence of our own eyes.

    sometimes a new or revolutionary fact or insight is attained. but this innovation must be at least as well grounded as the notions which are proposed to be discounted,
    or it should be dismissed.

    anyone can come up with something shocking or suprising. often, the shock value or unexpected quality of the new assertion or interpretation derives much of its force from a mature perception that the new idea makes no sense.

    the other appeal can be to a people who have been treated rather poorly in the culture of which they are now a part, though without having been given a fair share for so long the alienation runs very, very deep.

    some goofy british disinterested scholar guy is just the ticket to push a load of revisionist claptrap. at any rate, its worked at least a little. he sells books, gets on tv, raises people's blood pressure. so i guess he's probably happy.

  • james

    It is clear that ancient Greek culture was created by um Greeks! It's not rocket science. But does it really matter ? What matters racialy is how people behave today....why can't blacks (sub saharan genetics) create any form of civilised society anywhere today? When will the crime, aggresion and stupidity subside to reveal civilised behavior so we can live peacfully?

  • E

    @james u can't be serious right? white societies have shown us some of the most uncivilized behavior ever, for example the holocaust, public lynchings, War on drugs, starving millions of innocent people in order to experiment with collective farming(soviet union),Dropping two atomic bombs on a country that was in the process of surrending (U.S./Japan), a parasitic banking system, over consumption leading to environmental decay, and racism. We will never witness peace on this earth until we value something more than paper fiat currency, credit ratings, and organized religion.

  • http://www.krashbox.com HaTe_MaChInE

    @E - You are a bigger fool then james. How about this to rock your tacos.

    Without currency how would we pay the researchers that develop such things as the cure for polio and smallpoxs.

    Without credit ratings how do you issue discounts for consistently good finical decisions.

    Without organized religion all religion would be a accumulation of unmonitored cults only answering to themselves.

    @E - You hate that which you dont understand.

    Take a look the wild instability of past form of currency.

    Look at how credit ratings have enabled people from all walks of life to secure loans based not on the color of their skin or their friends but a number that is based on previous decisions.

    Look at how much time and money the Catholic church spends every year on aid programs in africa and you will not that they contribute more time and money then you sir will every contribute.

    An irrational hatred of organized religion is no more acceptable then an irrational hatred of blacks. In my book you are no better then james.

  • Chief

    @ James

    Whatever genes you have are inherited from one of the two daughters of an East African woman. More than likely, your deep ancestry can be traced to haplogroup L2. Interested in disproving my hunch? Go to "The Genographic Project" at the National Geographic website, buy a kit and submit your DNA for analysis. After that, let's talk genetics.

  • Chief

    2 Riley

    How do the "black nationalist" think?

  • Epicurean_Logic

    I can't figure out why Bernal is so anti Greek. That they were influenced by Kemetic and Phoenecians is not in doubt, the references are there in their own writings, but trying to highjack classical Greek culture and attribute it to blacks or Jews or any others?? is not clever, its just plain jealousy by all involved. Its actually quite flattering for the Greeks because everyone wants to 'hang out' with the smart kids.

    The Aryan model used to promote racism or the black model trying to build false self esteem are both examples of this. Destructiveness on one hand and desire to be associated with it on the other is just ridiculous.

    Please just give a large round of applause and be thankful for these bright sparks and their achievements.

  • Riley

    @Chief

    I don't have a good label for the mindset of the black people who were pushing the nonsense. You could almost certainly improve upon it, and are welcome to.

    The people I referred to (rather inaccurately) as 'black nationalist' seem to think that the egytians were black, that there were no subdivisions between the peoples within africa, that the greeks were profoundly, or even predominantly, restating egyptian (and hence black) ideas.

    the only people this group does NOT claim for themselves is the mesopotamians (semites/arabs), who actually DID have a profound cultural & technological impact upon greek thought.

    How do you think they (black chauvinists/racists) think? If you have a criticism beyond the poor terminology, let's hear it.

  • SOL

    He should have gone full circle and back further a few thousand years before the Sumerian existed and started off with the Anunnaki on Nibiru...

  • james

    @E I agree with you

    @chief ... I don't care what genetics i've got or what colour people are ...I'm just tired of certain aspects of black culture and attitude...there do seem to be bahavioural problems with a significant percentage of blacks that are unique to that culture/colour wether it's nature or nurture. I'm not saying that whites are perfect.

  • dread

    Greeks colonized, adopted, copied the arts craft etc; & kept Talking about there Superiority.

    Europeans colonized, adopted copied arts craft etc; & still keep on talking about their Superiority.

  • Epicurean_Logic

    Look at the bigger picture picture dread! All new ideas have some part lying in previous cultures. The Greeks were better. They honestly wrote down their feelings and knowledge ( many times incorrectly) and put it out there for peer review, criticism and praise. The Egyptians were secretive and the knowledge was restricted to the priestly classes.

    Yes they colonised but you have to look at historical context. I say that they were attacked on their own territory for hundreds of years by the Persians. If you doubt this look at locations for Persian Vs Greek battles. Marathon, Salamis... All in Greece (even the Ionian revolt was). It was only when the warlike Macedonians came along and decided to make preemptive attacks, that colonisation began. A reactive situation.

    When the small guy gives the big bully a bloody nose, who is to blame?

  • rink-a-fink

    Great documentary!
    Tariq Ali is the man.

  • rink-a-fink

    @chief

    "This documentary certainly was not produced to promote Prof. Bernals thesis"

    This is absolutely right. All of the attacking of this documentary seems to miss this totally obvious fact. It is ABOUT his theory, not totally accepting of it, hence the contradictions in what people are saying.

  • Herding Lemmings

    Any Black person who would believe this B.S. must be compensating for a bad,bad self imsge. Just be proud of what Africans have accomplished so far like ...like...huhhh..a little help here?

  • Epicurean_Logic

    @Herding Lemmings. There are a few problems with historical African achievements. In short,

    1. A horrible history of being relentlessly ruled by foreigners (as does most of the world)has erased the old stories.

    2. Working on the assumption that Africa has a much more ancient history. Alot of the story has been lost over time.

    3. The ancient golden African years occured at a time when written language was not developed. Hence no record of a golden age remains.

    4. Global Slavery!- Add your own negative conclusions- there are many.

    The modern achievements of black people are much more visible and numerous: The arts, theatre, dance, Literature ( Ben Okri is good), race relations, sport, music, and much more are all areas of black excellence. My point of view says that it is exactly these qualities that should be held up as good rolemodels for the modern youth.

    Its much more healthy, realistic and productive.

  • Herding Lemmings

    @ Epicurean_Logic : Very Logical of you. I was going to say Peanut butter and the electric washer but that sounded too lame.I'm sure theres alot more that I'm unaware of, or is lost in history, like you mentioned. Ever notice how little archeology goes on in Africa (except Egypt) as opposed to paleontology?

  • Epicurean_Logic

    @Herding Lemmings

    Well, erm, thanks. I guess i do occasionally think clearly:)although the Chief could probaby critisize the argument in constructive way.

    'Ever notice how little archeology goes on in Africa (except Egypt) as opposed to paleontology?'

    Never really thought about it. care to elaborate:(

  • Chief

    @ Riley

    Black Nationalist want sovereignty; the hope of ruling and controlling their own destiny in the land that their ancestors helped to build. They look at the history of treaties, laws, and codes initiated by white people, reflect on how they were broken, misused and implemented. Using the historical context of past actions, they see no reason to trust in agreements reached with the white majority. They have no hope in instituting meaningful changes in white systems of governance, education and financial institutions. Nationalist believe that white people in general, are prone to dishonesty, avarice and violence. In their myopic views, they are close minded to actual progress in race relations. They disdain assistance from outside the group; perceiving empathetic gestures as tricks. They have their own classical studies associations that constantly doo battle with the academicians. Their findings, in support of African historical contributions to civilization, have been chronicled and documented by UNESCO; especially the work of Cheik Anta Diop of Senegal.

  • Chief

    @ Epicurean-Logic

    I'm puzzled by your comment. On the one hand, you acknowledge past contributions of antecedent cultures, yet, you assert that the Greeks were superior because of their improvements on ideas. Any culture organized by humans produce a lifestyle in balance with their environmennt. For example, most tropical cultures remain committed to hunting and gathering for survival. Their environment is rich in vegetation year round. Game is plentiful year round. Survival is dependent upon consumption and the need for inventiveness is negated by plenty. The need to stimulate the intellect is therefore limited, but where needed, they excel in marvels specific to their needs in mastering their environment. The capacity of the brains of humans rises to meet environmental challenges wherever the need exists. In harsher climates, the need is greater and whatever is introduced from one culture is modified and adapted to meet that groups needs. This modification is an improvement over the prototype, but the genius still belongs to the initiator.

  • Epicurean_Logic

    @Chief. I hope that this answers a few of your questions.

    I definately have a pro-classical Greek bias, but i try to temper it with acknowledgement that nothing lasts forever and that the baton must be handed on to the successors for better or for worse, just as it was initially thrusted upon the Greeks. From 600bc-300bc I can't see any other peoples who furthered knowledge in any comparable way! Thus i stand by my statement that they were better.

    Personally i am anti Macedonian/Alexandrian but as i stated previously historiacl context provides some clue to why this colonisation occurred.

    I agree with you completely that the environmental conditions of any peoples have a huge impact on their culture and national psycology. Greece is a mountainous country made up of thousands of islands, very tough for outsiders to occupy and providing a stable base to build community upon.
    In a time when there was global superstition and ignorance these guys were developing ideas that ridculed the gods and empowered the individual for one thing and also produced foundational ideas in written form that thankfully lasted the test of time. Without this We would still be stuggling to do basic maths! Not to mention the major contributions to the arts, pottery etc.

    I don't disagree when you say the genius belongs to the initiator, it also belongs to the developers. Then if you initiate and develop ideas you finally reach the Greek level.

  • truthandjusticeforallMBA

    I can appreciate Martin Bernal's 3 Volume Book Set on Black Athena: Fabrication of Ancient Greece. He is one of a few White men who have began to atone for the sins of his forefathers. White men who claim that Greece, Rome, etc. are their founding fathers of Western Civilization is an outright lie of a group of Aryan classicist and racist racial scripting who postulate themselves as a grandiosity racial society and pit the original natives of people of color, culture, environment lower than themselves. The foundation of White civilization is a lie, founded upon lie after lie, over decades of millennium. European's have long been known in the real world to have stolen Egyptian history, culture, society, spiritual practices, as well as other antiquity societies for their own. To add further insult the classicist attempts to denounce over the decades Bernal's facts with more lies, indifference, and more racist rhetoric and theory to continue their perpetual falsehood of historical records, anthropological and scientific facts instead of being truthful to the world that they have in fact fabricated Western culture to date. As an African American this sickens me, because European's don't have to lie and cook up and steal other people history to claim as their own. The root cause of this negative behavior in European's is their ego. Their ego's pit them against everything that is positive, including the environment, which Europeans have all but destroyed in their quest to be a superior fabricated race. What is interesting that European's can't stop to think for one second that their ideology and philosophy could be entirely wrong, but no their ego's can't fathom that, because of the perpetual racist scripting over generations. The pits hell that is awaiting European (White) people over the world is churning so hot...White people need to repent and atone for their transgressions now.

  • Epicurean_Logic

    @dread. Egyptians colonized, adopted, copied the arts craft etc; & kept Talking about there Superiority.

    @truthandjusticeforallMBA. You make the story sound like there are no white people that have EVER made any good contribution to society. This is false.

  • james

    @ truth.... I agree about ego , but not that this problem is just a white persons experience. narcisitic personality disorder and massive ego is clearly abundant in african american culture and on an even more sinister level among countless african black leaders.

  • Chief

    @ Epicurean_Logic
    Usually, I am not a cut and paste guy, but it is late and I'll refer you to the book "Stolen Legacy". You might be interested in refuting the researched facts therein.

    "The term Greek philosophy, to begin with, is a misnomer, for there is no such philosophy in existence."

    Dr. George Granville Monah James was born in Georgetown, Guyana, South America. He was the son of Reverend Linch B. and Margaret E. James. George G.M. James earned Bachelor of Arts, Bachelor of Theology and Master of Arts degrees from Durham University in England and was a candidate there for the D. Litt degree. He conducted research at London University and did postgraduate work at Columbia University where he read for his Ph.D. Dr. James earned a teaching certificate in the State of New York to teach mathematics, Latin and Greek. James later served as Professor of Logic and Greek at Livingston College in Salisbury, North Carolina for two years, and eventually taught at the University of Arkansas, Pine Bluff.

    Dr. James was the author of the widely circulated Stolen Legacy: The Greeks Were Not the Authors of Greek Philosophy, But the People of North Africa, Commonly Called the Egyptians--a controversial text originally published in 1954 and reprinted a number of times since. Professor William Leo Hansberry reviewed Stolen Legacy in the Journal of Negro Education in 1955, and noted that:

    "In Stolen Legacy an author with a passion for justice and truth champions a startling thesis with which most of the little volume's readers--Hellenophiles in particular--will no doubt strongly disagree. In this work Professor James dares to contend and labor to prove, among others, that 'the Greeks were not the authors of Greek philosophy', that 'so-called Greek philosophy' was based in the main upon ideas and concepts which were borrowed without acknowledgement--indeed 'stolen'--by a few wayward and dishonest Greeks from the ancient Egyptians."

  • Epicurean_Logic

    Thanks for the link @Chief unfortunately i can't find it for free and i would be mighty pissed if i paid 18 bucks for it only to find that i hated it and couldn't get past the first chapter.

    Dr James life story is certainly of the type that intrigues me... and i will be telling my black buddies all about this book in the hope that they buy it, if not only for the chance to shut me up about how amazing the Greeks were! Then i can probably read it for free. Yes i know that it is a sneaky move!

  • Chief

    Chief
    @ Epicurean_Logic

    For the record, my inspiration to avidly pursue knowledge of self (11 years after obtaining a Masters Degree in Education) came from Dr. Eugene T. Reville, Metropolitan Supervisor of the Tri-District Desegregation Plan in Pulaski COunty, AR. He had been the Superintendent of Schools in Buffalo, NY prior to 1989. He spoke eloquently about Africa's contributions to civilization. His lectures upset the status quo in and around Little Rock, AR. I marvelled at the content of his lectures and when asked about his purpose, he informed me that his Doctorate was in African Studies and he was doing his part to right the wrongs of his race. He was white. He challenged me to learn about my history and culture in order to be a better than adequate school principal. Unfortunately, he was killed in an automobile accident on March 17, 1990. There are other notable Europeans who attempt to offer an unbiased view of African History. We need not settle for modern accomplishments when the past is rich in untold or little known accounts of African genius.

  • Epicurean_Logic

    @ Chief. I am all for the telling of unbiased African/European/etc history and if that means treading on a few toes along the way, Greek or otherwise then so be it. I just havn't seen any reason to supplant all Greek contribution with Egyptian, sumerian or any others. I also object to calling white people a race, it is just as objectionable to call black people a race. It's just way to much of a generalization. They are both a combination of many races :(

    well said @ 'We need not settle for modern accomplishments when the past is rich in untold or little known accounts of African genius' but also, don't neglect the modern as a relevent up to date source of inspiration. Modern Greece is screwed up at the moment (...)and no amount of historical greatness is going to change that. Only modern greatness will do that!

    I get that the black experience is very different to all others and i commend your effort in educating your melanin deficient brothers.

  • james

    @ Epicuran Logic

    " Modern Greece is screwed up at the moment"

    How so?

    A few econimists, bankers and german investors have destroyed the Greek economy recently and now european capitalists are suggesting that 'austerity' measures (the latest economic buzz word) are put onto the Greek people. In response to this the Greeks , who are clearly a passionate and politicaly aware bunch are demonstrating and fighting back. An admirable quality and strength of the people in my opinion. Most countries broken by capitalism are too busy thinking about products and buying in to the brainwashing to respond to the capitalists in any real way. i greatly admire the greek, especially at the moment.

  • Chief

    @ Epicurean_Logic

    To see the views of others you have to be more than willing to investigate. You actually have to "do the work". In doing so, you will find the evidence used to support the findings of those outside of the mainstream. It's the work I had to do myself, because my education didn't present me with that content; nor did any research assignments lead me into a 'phase of discovery'. That phase was launched in 1988, while I was working on my Superintendency Certification. It was a painful exploration but one that helped me overcome my educational programming. I am still exploring and find this site to be invigorating.

  • Epicurean_Logic

    @James. The pope has also offered to 'donate' money to the Greeks for reasons of posterity! Give me a break, modern Greece isn't dumb enough to fall for that old chesnut... The problem isn't only with Brussels (EU)though, it started by accepting to be part of the E.U. and then once you dance with the devil you have to take some of the responsibility on yourself ... The main problem in Greece is nepitism, 200'000 mp's and 1 million government employees who cannot be sacked in a nation of 10 million! The numbers just don't add up.

    The national pshycology is one of individualism and dare i say it a hint of anarchism. so they won't go down without a fight. It is also worth noting that the physical fighting is only occuring in very localised areas, and that the BBC have obviously focused on the more sensationalist side of the story.

  • Epicurean_Logic

    @Chief. I have no problem with doing the work as long as there is some direction to my studies i just can't bear trawling through tonnes of information and ending up at dead ends and circular non-verifiable answers, that is why i greatly appreciate the direction to studies provided by Vlatko, you and many others.

    Understanding the point of view of others is always interesting to me and as natural as breathing i just like to see a lot of facts and figures that back up any argument.

    Can you please preview some of the juicy facts in stolen legacy?

  • james

    @epicurean logic

    The public sector in Greece is actually below the average of other EU countries. The figures (and yours are innacurate) look higher because they include people like teachers for eg . There are 300 mp's not 200,000 ! Public sector employees in Greece are much lower than in for eg the USA, which is much more highly policed and administrated. What you say about the EU is correct though.

  • Epicurean_Logic

    @James. Yep, thanks for correcting my figures. I heard the story a month ago and the general gist of things was about ineficient public sector and mp's wasting money... Hey always blame the government first, right?

  • Chief

    @ Epicurean_Logic

    My copy is in Afghanistan with my grandson; check with your local library. Maybe one can be ordered for your purview if a copy is not available.

  • Epicurean_Logic

    @Chief. I am onto it buddy. You have got me hooked on this...

    After a bit of research i found this, you might be interested. Pythagoras certainly fits the model you described of a Greek that learned most, if not all of his knowledge from the non-Greek. It cannot be assumed that all, or later Greeks did the same as there are many areas of knowledge that are not comparable to others, Theatre, pottery, architecture,Euclidean Maths,...

    Iamblichus of Chaldis wrote of Pythagoras journey to Egypt,

    'from there he visited all the sanctuaries, making detailed investigation with the utmost zeal. The priests and prophets he met responded with admiration and affection.'

    So he was liked and welcomed with open arms,

    'He spent 22 years in the sacred places of Egypt, studying astronomy and geometry and became INITIATED... Until he was captured by Cambyses (A Persian emperor who invaded Egypt in 525bc)and taken to Babylon. There he spent time with the Magi, to their mutual rejoicing........Aquiring knowledge and reaching the height of THEIR mathematics and music and other disciplines.'

    it wasn't really a sneaky, dishonest Greek tactic to rip off the Egyptian and Babylonian. there are situational factors that make up Pythagoras's story as stated by Iamblichus.

    He also is the first to be credited with dividing numbers into odds and evens- primes and composites (Apostol. Intro to analytic number theory). and the famous theorem named in his honour because he/his followers actually provided for the world a beautiful geometric proof (the one where 4 exact copies of a tringle are arranged into a bigger square. Then use algebra; or geometric resoning in his case, formal algebra came much later).

    Gosh. This is going to on a bit... half time interval. back soon.

  • Chief

    @ Epicurean_Logic

    Your rfforts have warmed my heart this morning. There is more to be discovered from other 'fair-minded' Europeans like C.F. Volney or Dupius (can't recall first name).

  • Chief

    @ Epicurean_Logic

    Excuse the typo 'efforts'.

  • Chief

    "howstuffworks" presents some documented studies from major universities about other Greeks who studied in Kemet (Egypt). I found the site through my 'bing' browser by inputting "What the Greeks Learned from Egypt".

  • Epicurean_Logic

    @Chief. Thanks for the other links.

    To continue with the Pythagoras story (Wake up you in the back row) and his Kemetic influence, I should start by saying that he was my hero until the age of 14 (yes i agrree, very odd:)), until i dicovered the true nature of his teachings and although i still have some fondness for the man i most certainly am not a Pythagorean.

    He was a cult leader and not so different from modern cults definately kemetic influence there! his followers were split into: 1. the mysterious inner circle of a few, 2.the akousmatiki (the listeners) who did not speak, gave up all their worldy possessions and carried out lesser duties, and 3. the mathematiki (the learned ones) who learned, taught and expanded the knowledge (The Pythagorean sourcebook, Guthrie).

    This tells us about his life and the mysteries of the Kemetic and Babylonian teachers! Secretive knowledge, cults, no writings from his own hand mixed in with some maths, music astronomical and mystical knowledge. A powerful tradition nonetheless.

    So in short Pythagoras was heavily influenced by Egypt and Babylon, but it's not all in a good way there was far too much secrecy and no written records (from his hand). As opposed to the later Greek tradition of cake for all. Yummy.

  • Epicurean_Logic

    @ Chief. Then we also have to consider that we are just talking about classical Greece (600bc-300bc). Very little is known about the Myceneans (1900bc-1100bc) or the Minoans (approximately 3000bc-2000bc). We don't know how these guys fit into the bigger picture.

    I have bookmarked 'howstuffwoks'. Volney is Contantin-Francois de Chasseboef Count de Volney. Cant find Dupius though.

  • james

    @ epicuran logic

    According to certain sources the greeks were influenced by babylonians and egyptians, however they have been credited with the birth of science because they seperated the study of mathematics and philosophy from the shackles of theocracy. freeing up the train of thought and questioning into a purer form. The Greek kouros figures (i think kouros means youths) are clearly influenced by egyptian art but over time evolved into more naturalistic forms. I'm not sure what is actualy new in this discusion, i'll have to re-read the thread. Ancient Egyptian art and civilisation is one of the most highly studied and celebrated areas of history, although I understand that there is discussion about how 'black' the egyptians were. It seems that they had black slaves at one point, but recent dna testing of tutenkahmun has revealed him to be of north saharan lighter skinned ancestory. Political correctness, science and racisism are all colliding with each other. There is a lot of study to suggest there are differences between the races other than skin colour, eg brain size, testosterone levels, muscle to fat ratio and lots of nature/nurture arguments. combine that with awarness of current problems in southern africa for eg children being raped every 3 mins in south africa alone, the terrible rape and violence statistics of the congo, the suffering caused by superstition especially in regard to HIV. Then the problems of black immigrant communities in america and uk when other immigrants like indians and asians don't have those problems. It's such an emotional area of study and resentements are formed because any opinion that may be percieved as showing blacks in a bad light is shouted down and discredited because it will feed racists. I'll be honest, I'm struggling around the whole thing, I don't want to carry bad feeling in my heart, but I also don't want to avoid the truth.

  • Epicurean_Logic

    @James. Well said for,

    'According to certain sources the greeks were influenced by babylonians and egyptians, however they have been credited with the birth of science because they seperated the study of mathematics and philosophy from the shackles of theocracy.'

    You just nailed a point that i have hinted at and danced around for a while now, and i thank you for that.

    I am not sure why you should feel bad. Its not your fault that history has a racist and vicious side to it. We all just follow the story and see where it leads.

  • J P T

    Newsflash. The Egyptians weren't black! They were a Semitic population. Everything that is mentioned is in North Africa not Sub-Saharan (Black) Africa. Since when does Black = Semitic?

    "Black Athena" ??? "Semitic Athena" maybe, because the alphabet comes from the Phoenicians, and the Phoenicians were Semites!

  • Chief

    @ J P T

    Just a little bit of studying might help you to see the origins of Kemetic people. Your "newsflash" is antiquated with a religious bent not grounded in reality.

  • J P T

    @ Chief

    The word KMT is a SEMITIC word meaning "black land" referring to fertile soil. Ancient Kemetic was a SEMITIC language, Coptic is also a SEMITIC language. King Tutankhamun had figures of tied up and bound Nubian (read: Black) slaves in his tomb. As the documentary points out, the Egyptians referred to Nubians as "vile."

    The Nubians conquered Egypt later on, and attempted to maintain Egyptian structures, but this does not make the Egyptians black. Sudan was only a PART of the Egyptian empire wherein Sub-Saharan Africans lived, this doesn't make the entire Egyptian realm Black.

    So the question still remains, since when does SEMITIC = Black?

    If you want pride, have pride in your own Sub-Saharan African heritage (i.e. Ghana, Benin, Ivory Coast, Zaire) you don't need to hijack it from Semites (Hebrews, Arabs, Anc. Egyptians, Berbers etc.)

    All this "Asiatic Black Man" talk comes from Elijah Muhammad and Black supremacists. Asiatic Black man? Maybe you should take a geography lesson sometime. Blacks are Sub-Saharan African.

  • Robin

    This is not playing. What happened???

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    Nothing. Your computer is broken.

  • Chief

    @ J P T

    Your "semite" reference is based upon Biblical lore; Judeao-Christian mythos. In that fable, it follows that Noah gave birth to the so-called three races of humanity; Shem, Ham and Japheth. Purportedly, this happened after a worldwide flood. This would mean that Noah, with recessive genes, produced a dominant genetic type (Ham) through which all the land of the Ethiopians (once all of Africa extending eastward to the Tigris-Euphrates River). That line of thinking has been debunked through many of the sciences but DNA analysis and subsequent work with 'haplogroups' and the out of Africa migratory patterns has certainly made so-called biblical statements inconsistent with scientific facts.

    Old World maps provide a clue in the naming of the ocean that lies to the west of the continent; Oceanus Aethiopicus. Terminologies changed over time to reflect the will of conquering ethnic groups.

    Sub-Saharan Africa is terminology that came into existence during the 18th Century. What do you think was happening during this period? Of course, I'd rather not go there but I'd prefer to look at the conclusions drawn by Europeans who gave their eye-witness descriptions of the appearance of Egyptians when they saw them. I am providing this cut and paste in the context of which it is given: Herodotus states, according to the 1885 work by George Rawlinson where he gives his description of Egypt and Egyptians "The third explanation, which is very much more plausible than either of the others, is positively the furthest from the truth; for there is really nothing in what it says, any more than in the other theories. It is, that the inundation of the Nile is caused by the melting of snows. Now, as the Nile flows out of Libya, through Ethiopia, into Egypt, how is it possible that it can be formed of melted snow, running, as it does, from the hottest regions of the world into cooler countries? Many are the proofs whereby any one capable of reasoning on the subject may be convinced that it is most unlikely this should be the case. The first and strongest argument is furnished by the winds, which always blow hot from these regions. The second is that rain and frost are unknown there. Now whenever snow falls, it must of necessity rain within five days; so that, if there were snow, there must be rain also in those parts. Thirdly, it is certain that the natives of the country are black with the heat, that the kites and the swallows remain there the whole year, and that the cranes, when they fly from the rigours of a Scythian winter, flock thither to pass the cold season. If then, in the country whence the Nile has its source, or in that through which it flows, there fell ever so little snow, it is absolutely impossible that any of these circumstances could take place." Were Egyptians Africans? Herodotus believed that the Colchians (southern Black Sea area) were introduced to Asia by Egyptian expansion as far as Thrace and Scythia because "they have black skins and curly hair (not that that amounts to much, as other nations have the same)." [Herodotus, Histories, 167.] They also practised circumcision, unlike Mediterranean peoples of the time. Herodotus also used the term "Ethiopians" to describe Africans. My haplogroup migrated and settled iin the Nile Valley 18,000 years ago. I'm proud of that fact as well. Herodotus had no trouble writing "...The Colchians, Egyptians and Ethiopians have thick lips, broad nose, woolly hair, and they are burnt of skin".

    "Black with the heat" means what to you? Imhotep (AESCULAPIUS) according to Hippocrates, was his teacher in medicine; to him he swore "The OATH" to "him who taught me this Art". Imhotep was "black with the heat" and lived around 2300 in Ta-Merry (Kemet, Egypt, Sais, etc.).

    When I look to the past, I look for truth. I take pride in my deep ancestry and the knowledge that all humanity exists today because of an East African woman and her two daughters that persevered between 180,000 to 200,000 years ago; surviving a near extinction event and sustaining life for all humanity.

    You still need to enlarge your boundaries of "knowing" history. If you choose to stick with propaganda doctrines used to justify the dehumanization of my ancestors, that's entirely up to you. Martin Bernal, Basil Davidson, C. F. Volney and George Rawlinson are but a few Europeans between the 18th and 20th Century who provide an honest attempt to set the record straight. Herodotus, Pythagorus, Thales, Socrates...Got to go.

  • J P T

    @Chief

    If you look at the Copts nowadays they aren't Black. The Copts are the descendants of the ancient Egyptians. I'm not arguing based on biblical chronology. I am not a Christian. The ancient Egyptians spoke a language that belongs in the same language family as Hebrew, Arabic, and Amharic. I'm not going to argue petty semantics. Face it, an Arab, a Hebrew and a Berber are not Black people. These languages are not related to Bantu languages (Swahili, Zulu, etc.)

    The vast majority of Black slaves in the US came from W. Africa, so they would have no connection to the ancient Egyptians. If you look at the reconstruction of King Tut's face, it does not look like a flat nosed, large lipped, black African. Just because he has off-white skin and a shaved head does not make him black.

    If all of humanity came from Africa a long time ago, this does not make everybody black. There may be some black admixture in North African populations, but this does not make them black Africans who speak a Bantu language.

    Period.

  • Epicurean_Logic

    @Chief. i am inclined to agree with J P T and the official story of the Kemetic peoples being of semitic origin although is seems quite plausible, due to geographic arguments, that there is also a mix with black races.

    A lot of the arguments about the blackness of the Kemetic people stems from Herodotus as you correctly mention but it is well known that Herodotus was inclined to exaggeration and no small amount of peotic license ( A fine, but sometimes misleading Greek trait)...

    Do you have any other sources to the blackness of the Kemetic peoples? Multiple sources will help your argument on this!

    p.s. Loved this comment,

    ' When I look to the past, I look for truth. I take pride in my deep ancestry and the knowledge that all humanity exists today because of an East African woman and her two daughters that persevered between 180,000 to 200,000 years ago; surviving a near extinction event and sustaining life for all humanity.'

    Well said sir.

  • http://talenthouse.com/tommys 7Foundation

    I've read most of these comments. Comical at best. Everyone is relying on information told to them by someone, read in a book, watched in a documentary. So why is it so hard to believe that the Greeks or any other culture/civilization was started or formed from a preceding culture/civilization. Whites can't begin to think for one second that they are not the best thing since sliced bread. Non-whites tend to latch on to anything that disputes white-supremacy. Europeans have had the skill/luck to conquer the world (Africa, Australia, South/North America, etc.). In their conquest they created genocide, racism, caste-system, etc. on a level the world has never seen before (this wasn't new to the world, but the level at which the Europeans did it, was unseen before.). Everyone should know that all the worlds true history is being kept by what we call primitive civilizations, and what we have now will no longer be. And the human race will get another chance to be righteous again. PEACE!!!

  • james

    @ 7 foundation "Everyone is relying on information told to them by someone, read in a book, watched in a documentary."

    So where did you get your information on genocide? Also your generalising about whites and non-whites thinking. So was your information channeld through a shaman or something?

    Where ever we got our infomation we are having a discussion about it and disagreeing or chewing the fat over in a friendly way.

    I hope you're right about the human race getting another chance...Peace x

  • hamzatu

    Civilization did not start in Egypt...it started in Africa...

  • hamzatu

    Egypt is a part of Africa...for those who do not know...

  • james

    @ hamzatu ...yes Egypt is on the continent of Africa, but it's a bit like saying New York is in Brazil, they are both on the american continent but completely different places.

  • hamzatu

    In case you didn't know Brazil is in South America and New York is in North America...Different continents...

  • hamzatu

    Egypt is not a completely different place than Africa...it is Africa...Are you Egyptian, I am...where did you get your education...

  • james

    @ hamzatu ....ok ok , no need to get sand in your vagina! I believe that the african continent also has a north and south , divided by a desert. I never said Egypt is a completely different place than Africa, although it is clearly very different from many other parts of africa, but yes it is on the same land mass. Don't start insulting me , young man , or i will have to come and find you, pull your pants and trousers down to your ankles and put you accross my lap. Once in place i will gently spank your hairy muscular egyptian buttocks. mmmm

  • hamzatu

    On top of being stupid you're a faggot...and fag you'll get my old foot up yours...sweetback...

  • james

    Your carrying around far too much anger for an older guy, let it go , you'll upset yourself. I'm not a total fag I just have gay feelings for ehyptians, tunisians, moroccans, turks, kurds, italians, greeks, spanish, macedonians, you know, types like that. Anyway, it's only gay if you take it up the bum which i haven't done for years (too much effort). air kisses

  • Nikk

    pretty interesting discussion, it degenerated into abject racism from both camps at times, but interesting nonetheless.

    i think the idea of egyptian/north african blackness is not really debatable. look at them. they aren't black, being that black is a color not really a blood type or even a cultural group. however, it is interesting that scientists believe that the sahara desert was a fairly (in terms of geological history) recent development. which leads me to question whether or not north african semitic peoples and (now a days) sub saharan african peoples were able to come into contact with much more ease than we think and THEN gradually had their populations split. but, back to the east and egypt, the nubians were, even by egyptian standards, BLACK. like really black. and they didn't live but right down the nile. granted they were reviled in egyptian writings but, as many of you said yourselves, the egyptian culture held all of its writing, literacy and knowledge with the upper classes and if there's one thing we can all agree on i think it's the fact that ALL upper classes whether they're african, greek, european, egyptian, etc. think they're racially superior, even to poor people of their own nationalities. so that doesn't mean that everyday egyptians reviled them and that the two groups weren't doing some fucking. because, again, i think one thing we can all agree on is that humans as a species are some sex having creatures and no matter what age you live in or how supposedly religiously pious your society is that doesn't change.

    a second thing i found very interesting is the idea that "Greeks" invented all these things attributed to them which they did but I think it's more appropriate and humbling to think that if we asked Plato, Aristotle or any of those guys about this debate, though they had a concept of what a Greek was, they'd probably be like "nah we ATHENIANS invented all that stuff." because the truth is that there were other, non democratic, militaristic, slave holding and barbaric states in Greece (*cough* Sparta *cough*) who didn't give two shits about democracy, philosophy or art and science and mathematics.

    sort of keeping with the same idea, i found it fairly interesting that people were talking about greek achievements in the arena of "aryan" philosophy. im not accusing anyone of doing so here but i think it's very valuable to point out the distinction between southern europeans (spaniards, greeks and italians) and northern europeans, also referred to as western/central europeans (germans, french, british) who were they purveyors of the ideals of arianism or a belief in a "white" race. because those same societies, during the northern european renaissance which was actually very different culturally from the italian and southern european renaissance, considered southern europeans (much like the british considered the irish who by all accounts are WHITE in the sense of the color) "non-white". citing such features as olive skin tones and dark hair and dark eyes. just an interesting thought i figured i'd share.

    finally, i think that the real truth is that every culture on earth wants to claim some great discoveries as their national right or heritage or whatever. but the truth is that the depth and breadth of human knowledge is an amalgamation of the contributions of people from EVERY culture on earth and it's only our inherent narcissism as a species that makes these mind sets unavoidable. im half black and half white and i see european, asian, latin american, african and middle eastern contributions to science, art, math, literature, religion, and general human culture as my heritage and no one can take that away from me, or any of us, because before we're white or black or brown we're HUMAN BEINGS and these discoveries weren't made by these great men for themselves or even just their own people but for all of us. because the truth is that if you're white, or even greek, YOU didn't invent science and mathematics etc. the Greeks or Europeans as a whole didn't it was Pythagorus and Aristotle and Socrates who ACTUALLY invented those things. every race, culture, religion and other social minority or group has complete geniuses but it also has total fools and ass holes who, just as all the geniuses make their respective cultures look really good; make their same cultures look really fucking backward.

    and that's my two cents :-)

  • james

    @ Nikk .... well said

  • john galt

    To you Afrocentrics;The two cultures have little in common.
    They oppose each other one being mystic and the other scientific.
    My question is"why dont you know that?"Answer is you only read that which supports your obsessive views that Negroes have ever achieved anything.

  • hamzatu

    To you Eurocentrics, If you are so smart why is the world being destroyed and dying under your watch...

  • Chief

    @ John Galt
    If you just look around at all of humanity, especially look in the mirror; what you see is the result of a"little" accomplishment by so-called Negroes that is the foundation for all of us who breathe the air and interact with all other elements of life. That is the "scientific" findings. Without the survival of a few Africans who made it through a period of mass extinction, you wouldn't have the right to express your opinion.

  • john galt

    Again you afrocentrics avoided the main points of my post and dwell on a minor one.Adress this please.The basic concepts of the two cultures oppose each other directly (mystic vs scientific}.As a result neither could derive from the other and why dont you know this??

  • O'Shay

    All this “Asiatic Black Man” talk comes from Elijah Muhammad and Black supremacists. Asiatic Black man? Maybe you should take a geography lesson sometime. Blacks are Sub-Saharan African.

    Tell this to an Ethiopian or someone from Somalia. Many describe themselves as being both black African and Semitic.

  • Brian

    Next up the Romans will have been black... then the Spanish & English.... oh hey.. so were the Aztec, Inca AND the Maya, don't ya know!

  • hamzatu

    Yes everyone is black except you...don't it make you mad...it make me mad...

  • john galt

    Notice i cant get a reply to address my points.

  • hamzatu

    The reason you don't get a reply...you are a mindless fool...unworthy of an answer...can't you figure that out...genius...

  • john galt

    @hamzatu(wtf}and all afrocentrics

    I dont get a reply because you afros are desperate to keep
    your delusions.If all you do is return insults i know i hit a nerve.I repeat..
    .
    ..Address this please.The basic concepts of the two cultures oppose each other directly (mystic vs scientific}.As a result neither could derive from the other and why dont you know this??

  • hamzatu

    Like I said you don't deserve a response...you are a stupid cracker...with no heart or brain...that is your response faggot...

  • Chief

    @ John Galt
    The proper terminology for individuals who perceive or understand the world from centering themselves in the birthplace of humanity is "afrocentrists". Although you may choose to embrace the Eurocentric paradigm as espoused by Hegel and others who would denigrate the African or divide the continent according to geographic boundaries, the facts of direct connections between African cultures and European cultures are easy to find. For example, this quick cut and paste sample can be found under 'Greek Mysticism'. "Shamanism, as Mircea Eliade describes it, is an “archaic technique of ecstasy.” The shaman, who is usually a specialist in this task, is able to enter into “another world,” a non-physical world which is nevertheless considered to be “real.” The shaman may enter into the other world using mind-altering drugs, or by non-drug practices such as drumming, dancing, and ritual performances. Shamans are often initiated into their calling by a symbolic death, often through dismemberment. The shaman is then “resurrected” and put back together, so that he or she may become a spiritual benefactor for the people he/she serves. Shamans enter into the other world either to explore for themselves or on behalf of people. Often they go into the inner world—or “underworld,” in order to retrieve the souls of those who are in danger of death. Shamans are thought to have magical powers of clairvoyance, healing, communication with animals or with dead peoples’ souls, and blessing and cursing, among many other abilities. And their words, or songs and poetry, are thought to have magical powers as well.

    A basic assumption of shamanism is that the soul is independent of the body, and can “travel” outside the body: it is detachable. The shaman’s soul goes on a visionary journey, while the body is suspended in a trance. The soul enters what modern shamanic scholar and practitioner Michael Harner calls the “shamanic state of consciousness,” in which a mythical reality, rather than our material reality, can be experienced. A milder, less trance-like form of this practice is sometimes called “active imagination,” the directed use of the imagination in mental visualization, rather than in undirected daydreams and fantasies.

    The ancient Greek encounter with shamanism and its transformation into Greek mysticism is described by W.K.C. Guthrie in his ORPHEUS AND GREEK RELIGION, where he shows how shamanic motifs of the detachable soul, soul-travel, ecstasy, dismemberment, and resurrection were taken over by the cult of Dionysus, and then modified and refined by the mysterious religious movement known as “Orphism,” named after its mythical founder, the poet Orpheus. The myth of Orpheus has a shamanic quality to it: Orpheus charms wild beasts with his songs, he voyages to the Underworld in search of his lost wife, he fails to bring her back (in some variants of the myth, he succeeds), and is later dismembered either by Furies or by angry female followers (depending on the variant of the myth). The religion, centered around this shamanic poet figure of Orpheus, though it is not well-documented by contemporary evidence, was highly influential in the development of later Greek mysticism in myth, theory, and practice."

    To which culture are you ascribing the tag 'mystic'? To which culture are you ascribing the tag 'scientific'?

  • james

    @hamzatu wether your right or wrong you're undermining your argument with being so unpleasant. Reading up though, it's clear you don't have an opinion, other than you hate people.

  • hamzatu

    You guys love to be right...I don't care what you love...and I will never give you a break...I don't hate anyone...so rationalize in any way you want...but if anyone is going to be on top it is going to be me...and I don't care if your feelings are hurt...

  • Erik

    To the fellar("science, movin in circles 4 ages") talking about white recessive genes and survival of the fittest.. You really think life is just about reproducing? You think low birth rates in Western countries is about Genes? Seriously? Heard of contraception, careers, hobbies etc? Stuff to do besides raising children....

    Your little post there would be a great argument for Hitler...

    Evolution takes place on more levels than the individual or than the level of the "race". Maybe we could move together as a species instead of looking upon human relations in a "social darwinistic" manner.

    By the way, it is commonly accepted by most historians that european culture has had considerable advantage of impulses from other cultures, anyone suggesting that european civilization arose from a void is a moron.

    It was when Europeans started traversing the oceans that they became great. The chinese culture was superior in so many ways up untill 1600ish.

  • john galt

    @ ham at zoo
    .
    ..hamzatu08/02/2010 at 23:04 Like I said you don’t deserve a response…you are a stupid cracker…with no heart or brain…that is your response faggot
    .
    ..obviously you cant respond and you resort to what little you do know and respond with a chimp out.Standard Negro

  • john galt

    @chief
    The main fallacy of afrocentrism is that one can just adopt the perspective of another culture.Its complex and takes a lifetime to develop a perspective.The idea that you can put one on like a coat is ridiculous.Afros would know this if any of the main proponets were actually in their field of study.Ive found no main Afro that is qualified in cultural anthropology.They go on and on proclaiming in a field they have no training in.It shows.

  • Chief

    @ john galt

    Are you an expert in the field of "cultural anthropology?" Perhaps many definitions can be found to enlighten the investigators of prescribed tenets that validates ones entry into the club of experts. I like the following definition:
    "Anthropology is defined as "the study of man, his origins, physical characteristics, institutions, religious beliefs, social relationships, etc." and this science may be subdivided into cultural anthropology, physical anthropology, social anthropology, and so on."

    I like it because it describes a multi-faceted construct that is inclusive of variables that impact the whole. Hence, cultural anthropology, if that is your thing, doesn't exist apart from science and mysticism, (i.e. religious beliefs). It makes your recurring question a moot point because it is an invalid premise.

    Afrocentricity is but one component of a larger concept called "cultural democracy". Every group on earth, in order to be properly educated, should begin the process from their own center or place of genetic origins. Most groups, who have not been enslaved or colonized for successive generation, acquire this intergenerational transfer through affective and cognitive development that is nurtured through familial and societal norms that are distinct and intact. For people of Afrikan ancestry, on the continent and in the diaspora, external constructs (generally established upon the notion of white supremacy) must be challenged and corrected.

  • J P T

    @Chief

    All that still does not make Egyptians Black. The Egyptians weren't Black. Besides 90% of African Americans are of West African descent. Egypt is in North EAST Africa. That would be like me as an American of British descent claiming I was Polish or Lebanese.

    So basically what you are saying is, if Black Africans have been culturally dispossessed that makes it completely alright if they make up a false identity for themselves? I'd have more respect for Afro-Centrists if they talked about historical kingdoms in Benin and Ghana as opposed to claiming they are Egyptians, Arabs, Hebrews etc. I even came across an afro-centrist website that claimed Buddha was Black! Dude, Buddha was born in Northeast India in present day Nepal. It gets worse I am sure.

  • john galt

    @chief
    Typical Afrocentric bullsheet;overly VERBOSE vernacular used to cover a deep seated inferiority complex.Standard afro device for evading the point.Try again.REM: You cant put on a new cultural perspective like a new coat.
    Why do think you can define afrocenticity while it is a recent fabrication of Asante{he too writing out of his field}?Asante is the king of pointless verbose garbage exceeding even your ability.He wrote about twenty books obscuring his idea of a thing he called "place" which every one else easely understand as perspective.

  • Chief

    @ john galt and J P T

    So, I am responding to white men who hold in their minds that they are superior in intellect. Okay. You certainly have the right to think in that manner and become agitated that a so-called inferior would dare to challenge your baseless assertions. I've shared this quote before, but it bears repeating before I take my leave to attend to a few errands. C.F. Volney wrote "...There a people, now forgotten, discovered, while others were barbarians, the elements of the arts and sciences. A race of men, now rejected from society for their sable skin and frizzled hair, founded on the study of the laws of nature, those civil and religious systems which still govern the universe."

    In his book "The Ruins of Empires" interesting dialog can be found that might give you a moment to pause. He certainly wasn't an 'afrocentrist' as the concept had not been articulated or documented during his era. He's of European descent so I would consider his view more unbiased than any of us who debate the prospect of Afrikan people having a history before the arrival of Europeans. You are obviously locked into your racist paradigm of white superiority and even whites, who disagree with your premise will more than likely be viewed unfavorably.

    For example, I grew up being taught in public school that Herodotus wqas the Father of History. He was a Greek and along with Aristotle and Socrates formed an intellectual trinity that gave light and knowledge to the secular world. He is tauted in popular culture (propaganda) until his writings concerning his direct observation of Egyptians and Colchians provide a description that fits the physiology of Afrikan people. His account is not disputed by any testable evidence that is related to his observation or the period of his journey into Egypt, but instead, he is described by modern white people as a "teller of lies".

    But I am always happy to note that your behavior is to the far right, a fringe relic of attitudes fighting for survival in a more enlightened world. I would recommend that you both take a look at the "Journey of Man" a 13 part series (about 9 minutes each) following the travels of Dr. Spencer Wells, a population geneticist who documents the migration of humankind OUT OF AFRIKA. He runs into people who swear by their mythology relative to their origins, but as a scientist he continues to provide evidence that is testable and verifiable.

  • Chief

    @ J P T

    This documentary was not produced by people of Afrikan ancestry. Martin Bernal would be considered white. There are numerous white people who project similar thesis concerning external influences in the development of Greco-Roman history. Influences only suggest that ideas existed elsewhere before they became prominently associated with a particular group. So, for you to assert that Black people are making stuff up is absurd.

    Previously, I chose Herodotus and C.F. Volney to provide credible evidence that you can take to task. What they saw and wrote reflects their time and their experiences. It is not, therefore, my opinion or interpretation of their works. It is a part of the evidence that is readily available for Eurocentric proponents to consider. It's references from your own ethnic group. You and I were not present during either period and we can only reflect upon the data that is considered evidentiary and the circumstances that require reasonable and rational thought.

    As for indigenous claims in various places, they are authenticated through multiple scientific disciplines. Where the fossil records run out, genetics takes over, validating the fossil records and filling in the gaps when they are missing. Perhaps you need to acquire more exposure through modern means of knowing. The internet is a good source and this cite has a number of documentaries that may help to enlarge your perspective. The Discovery Channel produced "The Real Eve" and Vlatko made it available for viewers. Also, National Geographics produced "The Human Family Tree" through the work of Dr. Spencer Wells. NOVA has a documentary concerning The Human Genome Project and the content supports the aforementioned documentaries. In fact, they probably were influenced by NOVA's work.

    @ john galt

    For me to harbor an inferiority complex would require that I dismiss experiences from my interactions with white people from 1966 to 2005. From the Marine Corps, multiple universities, a public school system, a governor's office and a state department of education, I have manage to come out on top even if victory was snatched away through guile and deceit.

    In the Marine Corps I completed Boot Camp with top honors (worth of the dress blues) ranked number one in academics. In Vietnam I thwarted an attempted court martial by my own testimony and the production of applicable records. At the university level, I was able to successfully petition for grade changes (from B's to A's) against three professors who thought I should be happy to get an inferior grade in their class. In the public school system I defended a termination attempt by a school principal and the local teacher's union. I represented myself and received accolades from the Superintendent for my presentation of district policy, facts and logic. I could go on with many more intellectual victories against the establishment but I have engaged you long enough. It is unfortunate that you refuse to answer questions put to you with facts. Why are you so unresponsive?

  • Chief

    AS for the "Asiatic Black man" his roots are definitely documented in The Journey of Man on YouTube. No need to be misinformed. It also establishes his link to the Australian aborigines and the Central Asian population that branched off into Asians, Europeans and Americans.

  • J P T

    @Chief

    Google "Copt" and see what you get. It is *you* who is evading the point. The Copts are the descendents of the ancient Egyptians and they are not black, they are North African Semites. Go tell a Copt that they are Black, see what happens.

    Just because everyone's ancestors migrated out of Africa (It is spelled with a 'c' BTW as it comes to us most recently from Latin) a bazillion years ago does not make everyone in the world black. The cultures have differentiated themselves into distinct units over time. Just because I am a Homo Sapien, I should claim I'm black, learn Bantu and start wearing a Dashiki? I don't think so.

  • Chief

    @ J p t

    We've already had this dialog and I am quite familiar with the Coptic background, especially the Coptic Christian Church and the depictions of Saint Maurice. The Kingdoms of Makuria, Nabatia and Alodia have a lot to tell about who they are as descendants of Kushites. Obviously, since you bring this up again, we won't agree. By the way, in my circle of influence, the "K" is significant in the spelling of the Motherland for those who are so centered.

  • Chief

    @ J P T

    The Kushite Kingdom appears to have existed from 800 BC to about 350 AD. From these people came Makuria, Nobatia and Alodia. All of these were eventually subdued by the Arabians and came under the influence of Islam. Prior to that time, Egyptian Christians fled to the region (Northern Sudan and Upper Egypt). They blended in among the Sudanese because of the amount of melanin in their skin.

    In most conquered regions, the inhabitants are mixed or take on the complexion of the conquerors. In some places, indigenous people remain with their sable skin and frizzled hair. Just because the complexion of people in a particular place changes over time, it doesn't serve as a good example of who originally occupied the space. I just recently witnessed that as I drove out interstate 40 through New Mexico and Arizona. Native (indigenous) Americans certainly don't look like Europeans. The majority of Americans are still white but we know the history behind the subjugation of the natives, the exploitation of Afrikans and the proliferation of white settlements and established townships and states.

    You can still find indigenous Egyptians in Egypt. Conquests by the Persians, Romans and Arabs definitely changed the complexion over a long period of time, however, the Herodotus period still found them with a great deal of melanin and physical features that would have them classified as "BLACK" by the prevailing standards.

  • john galt

    @ chief
    To your credit you did address one point one point i made(mystic vs science} thank you,by noting either may be called mystic.As a culture may span times and go in and out of phases over time and take all imagined tracks through time for example starting simply then becoming more complex then declining as the whole society fails.Another issue is with any large group of people they are bound to go off in many directions.Even here and in our time you find a spectra of beliefs including total mysticism and total science.So if i say anything about ancient greece or egypt it will be about the main thrust or primary legacy left after the partys over.
    Within that i say the ancient egyptians never left mysticism as the primary movers of the cosmo and even at the peak of their medical science their cures usually had prayers to the appropiate gods to effect the cures.There was no good medicine untill Harvy?{guess} discribed circulatory system and Pasture and buddys figured out germ theory...At all previous times i think doctors were as likely to kill you as help
    The greeks are credited and deservidly so with inventing math not improved untill newtons time.You ask how do i support such ideas.The answer is ive spent a life of study on it.I started to study the chemical spicifics of genetics formally in 1965 and have a degree in chemistry.Im working on a simplified but effective model for basic calculas.{ok not the greatist acidemics} but im not often wrong simply because i shut up in the many topics i am ignorant in.
    Anyway i read the translations of the few med and math documents there are.No way did egyptians do much math.Even had long formulas for multiplying and dividing.Can you imagine doing any algebra in hiroglyph.Experts cancel each other out.Just read it yourself or find ppl that have no agenda.One more time...How can afrocentrists change their perspectives like changing a coat when it takes a lifetime of immersion to develop one.

  • john galt

    @chief
    BTW Herodontas?sp? was a notorious lier because of his discriptions flying snakes and centars and such.

  • Chief

    @ john galt

    Afrocentrist have access to a diverse array of works from their own scholars and champions of thought and praxis. When one has been so immersed in eurocentric views, coming out of Jim Crow norms and societal expectations, the initial leap is the most difficult to make. The "coat" one wears may simply come from a simple book that says, "What They Never Told You In History Class". The footnotes and references provided can lead an awakened mind into a field that embraces deep cosmological references beginning with the examination and interpretation of Prehistoric Rock Art. Wearing that coat allows one to make inferences from the Khoi-San culture, dated to (minimally)60,000 years ago by means of genetic testing of the Y-chromosome found in the male gender of human species.

    With that coat in mind, one can see the evolution of astrological knowledge, combined with mystical experiences that give rise to religious depictions of the relationship of gods to animals and their connection to human existence. Nature is studied, examined and espressed according to the best explanation that touches upon consistency; attempting to explain a cause-effect relationship. Now, the Afrocentrist, in the truest sense, collects data and information from those who claim kinship to Afrika.

    Saying this, I probably don't fit the bill but I still have an affinity for their work. If I were to address the cosmological coat, I would address the more recent works presented by the Bradshaw Foundation "Ancient Rock Art of the World". The examination found in the Bradshaw collection that is most interesting to me would be "The Lost Art of the Sahara" and "The San Rock Art of South Africa". These would serve as a base line for communicating ideology related to religion and its connection from South Afrika to East Afrika and Northeast Afrika in the gods of Egypt to the ennead of Greece. From that coat I can mount a justifiable claim with multiple 'proofs' in support of my position; submitting them to scientific evluation that can only be refuted by opinions and conjecture.

  • Chief

    @ john galt

    Afrocentrist, more than likely, would take the position espoused by Dr. Leonard Jeffries as he addressed his students in this documentary. In the 'afrocentric view', there is no need to codify knowledge in accordance with European or Asian scholars. Afrocentrist have their own revered cadre of icons. Most notable among them would be Dr. Cheik Anta Diop of Senegal, Dr. Ben Jochnnan of Egypt and Dr. John Henry Clarke. These would be listed among the elders with Dr. Molefi Asante, Dr. Asa Hilliard, Dr. Amos Wilson, Dr. Naim Akbar, Dr. Ali Mazuri and Dr. Francis Cress welsing being but a few of those who would be my contemproraries. I would not defer to their work to address your position because they form the bedrock of views grounded in an Afrikan perspective.

    Therefore, I address your position from the views of Europeans past and present. The continuity of European expressions on the subject of the ethnicity remains in tact, even if you choose to discount the testimony of Herodotus whose observations date back to at least 425 B.C. Plato, Pythaggias, Iamblichus, Thales of Milete, Strabo and Diodorus Siculus are all Ancient Greek students of Egypt, where the mysteries were shared only with the initiated; requiring many years of residency. They were surely sworn to secrecy, but in a different culture, a different world they yielded to the temptation and desires of their egos. They recorded and probably embellieshed what they had learn. Consequently, their works became associated, not with where they had been or from where they had received their knowledge, but from their individual stature as mean of great knowledge. It is reasonable to understand that their students, looking back upon their own enlightenment, credited the source of their learning as the fountain from which light sprang. Today they would be charged with plaigarism but as is the habit and practice of conquerors, codes are enacted to protect what they have taken from others.

    I'll address another 'coat' later.

  • lazibonz

    This race c@#$ brings out all the racist people, I personally am not racist but i believe all the almost all bad things that have happened or happening in the world are a direct result of white people. I hate how they try to paint themselves as the perfect race while they are the reason the world will be destroyed. Here are some of the bad things the "perfect civilized race" has brought upon us.

    NUCLEAR BOMB=> invented by the whites to kill the Asians. It is s@#$ because to invent such a thing because if a nuclear war was to begin we would find it very hard as a human race to recover in fact the whole earths ecosystems.

    GENOCIDE=> the murdering of the 6 million people (Jews) was done by guess who, you guessed it the whites, ok granted they are not the only ones who have done genocide but they have killed the greatest no of people, here is a few, 1.5 australian aboriginals,more than 5 million Africans (during slave trade and the colonization of Africa), I don't know about America but i would guess more than 1 million red Indians. Not to mention the large number of people their supremacist have killed.

    THEFT=>They have stolen huge pieces of land from original owners e.g aborigal australians and americans.

    TERRORISM AND ANTI-ISLAMIC VIEWS=> the whites are responsible for terrorism since they are the ones who trained the terrorists in the first place during the war against Russia. Then they brought on war on Islam as a cover for stealing middle-eastern oil.

    SLAVERY=>The whites are responsible for the greatest slave trade know in human history, they took the blacks from Africa and took them to America and now they gonna complain about blacks who would be there were it not for their actions. GLOBAL WARMING=> Started by the white inventions in summary in my own non-racist opinion, the world in general would have been a better place if the Europeans and their progeny hadn't existed.

    All the blacks would be in Africa and their population would be small and all the beautiful rain forests would still be there, aboriginals would still be happy in both Australia and Americas. all the dead culture would still exist. No global warming due to industries or the destruction of the environment.all in all the action of the whites has caused more destruction than the actions of all the other races combined and i would bet a lot of money that the world will be destroyed because of the action of a white man. A superior race ha what a joke.

  • lazibonz

    i would like to apologize if i have offended anyone because of my previous post. I think i have gone very low and i should say that i think racist sentiments reside in stupid people who dont understand anything about adaptation to environment. I didnt mean to cause any offence and am dissapointed that i allowed myself to be pulled into such a discussion about unimportant thing as race. I actually like all people because i believe that we are all the same species and should all act like civilised people. I mean with all the understanding of science that we have now it is such a shame that some of us have social thinking of a centuary ago. Anywayz concerning the documentary who care what race the greeks were, we should all be lovers of knowledge and it shouldnt matter who found it as long as it advances the human race and the environment arount us.

  • http://lastdays@blogspot LaChance Middleton

    Without wasting my breath to comment on Professor 'Banal' ('s) cry for publicity, the film could easily be edited down to twenty minutes by eliminating the repitition of segments. That being said, people need to remember that they are consumers of education and pay a handsome price for it. To pay for the privilege of sitting in Professor Benal's classroom is tantamount to paying for a car and getting a tricycle.He does no service to academia and a great disservice to his minority students.

  • http://lastdays@blogspot LaChance Middleton

    @ 'truth'...white people don't have to atone for anything. I don't know any slaveholders or even anyone that used to be they are all dead and buried like the notion that we can't stand on our own two feet without leaning on the former masters. Man up, live in the now, and if you want respect then be respectable.

  • Chief

    @ LaChance
    Do you believe in reciprocity? By the way, this documentary was not produced by Dr. Bernal. To look at his basis for his work, you have to read his book and examine the evidence provided. Afterwards, you may be able to provide an adequate critique.

  • 8-4

    afrocentrism is so tiresome.

    next up they will claim sumer and babel as afro-originated.

    european supremacy has indeed served to re-write history to a certain extent but most afrocentric writing is just straight up bull-

    did you know emperor Qin had cornrows?

  • james

    i'd just like to apologise on behalf of all white people for slavery and stuff and i hope black people can make the world a better place again with a great peaceful civilisation where everyone gets to wear nice robes and theres waterfalls and exotic perfumes and fruit , but no more rap music or gangsta culture please.

  • Panos

    Totally absurd. Anyone with a inferiority complex or an identity cricis wanna be a Greek ( see the slavobulgarians of FYROM, now some demented black nationalists).

    And moreover they are insulting the African people by degrading them to the level of a common thief driven by his inferiority complex to claim the achievements of other civilizations.

    Pathetic and ridiculous.

  • Olympian

    More jewish propaganda to eradicate anything superior to their own parasitic culture. The systematic destruction and distortion of historic records (the great Alexandrian library, the scriptures of the ancient Greek philosophers and scientists, the dreaded Byzantine period) takes up new form nowadays with such pseudo-researches... what else we will see? The idea of the ancient Greeks as racists and thieves is evil. Egyptian semitic origins of all civilisation sounds like typical rotten Jewish effort to complete their sickened notion of a world revolving around them..

  • Herding Lemmings

    And the Black inferiority complex dance continues accompanied by a British apologist singing soprano. I'll grant you the British have plenty to atone for. Half the violence in the world comes from England blindly throwing borders up without regard for the peoples living there as the brits pulled out. However this guy is just deluded. Don't call us, we'll call you. Next, please.

  • CS

    when are people going to realize that blacks (the original men) have been involved in every civilization from Egypt,Israel, Asia and the Americas since 5000 B.C., European colonial histories has always aimed at a whitewash since the Moors were conquered... no wonder these areas still harbor far right intellectual "political" types...

  • Sa Ra

    Europeans generally have a difficult time with the truth. The paradigm of white supremacy is like a drug addiction that they do not wish to give up. It is well documented in Martin Bernal's book as well as many other books such as: Stolen Legacy, George G.M. James, Ancient Egypt, Light of the World, Gerald Massey, The Book of Beginnings, Gerald Massey, Black Genesis, Robert Bauval and countless others (I have primarily listed white scholars since europeans generally don't accept Black scholarship); that Greek civilization drew heavily upon Ancient Egyptian civilization. Often, when this is unavoidable; the Ancient Egyptians are then depicted as white or some type of hybrid race. Of course, as anyone knows who has studied even a modicum of psychology; those who continuously proclaim superiority and identify others as inferior; are themselves masking a deep rooted inferiority complex.

  • joe

    Dint the great libary of greece burn gown to the groubd and alot of knowkedge lost.

  • joe

    Laz tell the whole story ,japan attach first,how many millions died in world war two,millions and many were white,how many slaves did the egyptians have in there long reign,the whole history of all cicilization were conquered and be conquered,mayas,eqypt,,persia,did you ever see what japan did to china,and what has gone on in africa the last 30 years,anyone one sided in ther views are liars,all races have egos,all civilizations had rivals,and all do not have clean hands in there history.

  • jim

    i wish africa was like all nice people with white teeth and colourful robes and the music from the lion king playing while half naked women serve you exotic fruit and stuff, sadly it is a cess pit of degradation, rape of men women and children, machetti crime, dis organised political chaos and rubbish and human excrement on the streets and beaches, haiti and jamaica are the same as are black ghettos in civilised countries....where has all the theoretical civilisation and ancient wisdom gone? I don't care if blacks are better than whites or whatever, just live it today if that's what they are.

    If it helps to revise history fine, but we have to live today not in the past

  • Him

    This again, lol,everyone who argues there culture here is predjudice. What color is your DNA.

    Who cares who discovered what, it means nothing. All that matters is what WE do as an individiual with that knowledge. Why waste away your life pondering such foolish things. Cant you understand that all these barriers that keep us apart were put in play centuries back by the few that wished to rule the many.

    Please stop judging each others religion,science and motives and just stop to think for once for yourselves. Stop being a puppet on the strings of your government and learn thyself.

  • clix

    I read the trilogy of books this documentary is based on a few years ago. Having grown up in Ethiopia, I was quite aware of the significant connection between NE Africa and Athens. There are many Greeks such as Homer and Herodotus who have written glowingly about Ethiopians, their civilization, wisdom, bravery, etc. One of the reasons Herodotus was belittled as a liar, despite the fact that he is also called the 'Father of History' in the same breath, is due to his adulation of Ethiopia. Greek history, her mythology (read about Andromeda) and religions, are much intertwined with Africa and Phoenicia.

    Most learned Greeks readily acknowledge this as part of their history. However, western Europeans, in an attempt to aggrandize their own history have often sought to draw a sharp distinction between Athens and Africa. When that was not always possible, Egypt was whitewashed, not to mention Ethiopia.

    I agree with a commenter above, that white superiority has become an addictive drug to many in the west. Most know it's bad for them, but find it difficult to kick the habit. Bernal is a scholar who has risked much by writing these books. Instead of providing the peer-review any thoughtful scholarly work deserves, the establishment sent Mary Lefkowitz, a white supremacist in disguise, to denigrate Bernal as a man, and Afrocentrism as a movement without providing much of an argument against the points raised in Bernal's books. The funny thing is, Bernal is a white man. Some of Mary Lefkowitz's arguments were that the alternatives discussed in Bernal's books were as equally likely as some of the Aryan model. It is understandable why she resorted to ad hominem. It is also understandable why Black Athena, over two decades after its publication, still remains scholarly unchallenged.

  • cedric

    Thumbs up for this film, much needed. And they said that racism was dead, u people on this post upset my stomach....face the facts jack!

  • Taharqa (conqueror of Egypt)

    @ LaChance Middleton
    Well Well, its funny how this Black Athena theory awakens all the racist individuals on this site LoL...What do you base your comments on...What level of academia have you achieved?!?!? If you are so qualified why don't you invite him to a debate about Classical African history or fabricated Greek History. If you have nothing to say observe, read, listen or go play video games or Watch a blockBuster movie on Egypt to further manipulate your brain...LoL

    @ james
    Talking about music the very guitar Rock artist use today was invented in West Africa by the Madinke people my friend, so just because Afrikans do no longer Break dance or perform rock music don't mean that we cannot move on and create other forms of music like Rap, Jazz, Funk, Makossa, Soukouss, and so fourth...So what do you want African people to listen to?!? Rock music or Country Music...stop being pathetic and be realistic. Freedom of Creativity my friend.
    If you don't like it don't listen to it. Period. or create your own music!!!

    @Panos
    Count Constantine de Volney during his trip Egypt(1783-1785):"that this race of
    Black men, today our slave and the object of our scorn, is the very race to which we owe our arts, sciences, and even the use of speech! Just imagine, finally, that it is in the midst of people (i.e., Americans) who call themselves the greatest friends of liberty and humanity that one has approved the most barbarous slavery, and questioned whether Black men have the same kind of intelligence as whites!"

    @ Herding Lemmings
    Its quite ironic that your name itself on this post means "Lubricated Anus" in the Bassa Language of Cameroun. I wouldn't think this is a coincidence regarding the fact that there was an English occupation in the Bassa Region of Cameroun between (1914-1950). I think what may have happened is that some European overheard the Bassa People say those words numerous times and some probably took note of that without trying to understand what the phrase really meant. Oh by the way the Bassa migrated from present Area Mozambique to Nubia (Sudan) then to Egypt then to West Africa...Oh and we do have our own Manuscripts which have long been hidden from Europeans during the Colonization period...
    Let me go ahead and give you some Bassa knowledge maybe one day you will thank me for introducing you to this Factual World History.

    Oh by the way Constantine de Volney as mentioned earlier to your delusional friend was accompanied by Napoleon Bonaparte and his troops to Egypt...Accounts reveal that by witnessing the great Sphinx of Egypt he couldn't believe his eyes and so ordered his troops to shoot canons at the nose and lips of the Sphinx to reduce the overwhelming Negroid features of the great Sphinx...Hint hint
    Hence your dellusional thoughts about Africa... Read a good non eurocentric history book written either by acclaimed and globally known African Scholars like Dr. Cheik Anta Diop or Ivan Van Sertima. But based on your backward judgment you may not... so i will propose to read African history books written by honest and radical European Scholars like Marcel Griaule, Basil Risbridger Davidson, Joel Freeman who actually went to Africa and lived in various parts of Africa.
    How would you write the history of African people if you had never been there? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that most History books you read in class about Africa is so obscure and lack substantial facts with no classical or quintessential element to it...thus these books have to be banned from the classrooms.
    Well Herding Lemmings you are just a victim of the European feel good or Aryan model propaganda which has systematically been injected within the European mind by racist Anthropologist and historians. You will never win in this battle for the truth shall always prevail...Hence that's why you will always feel like you have the need to deny or denigrate whatever the Negroid(original) race does.
    Wake up and trace the smoke, if you don't you will burn...LoL

    Great nations rise and fall
    Its just a matter of who is next
    Waiting for your response!!!!
    "Herding Lemmings"...LoL
    I also invite you to the Bassa Land or the Dogon Land to learn something about the true origins of cosmology...
    Read a good book about the Dogon people and their mastery of cosmology which they still learn today. Robert Temple authored "The Sirius Mystery" which I recommend to every person on this post. Its about
    Again read a book before posting and make sure you do some homework on the authors background and authenticity!!
    Peace!!!

    Again good work Vlatko!!!!
    Love this site!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Hal Halloway

    This is almost as amusing as the Afro-centrist belief that the blacks founded the Chinese civilization.

  • clix

    @Hal Halloway

    It takes a genius like you to boil down three volumes of books and an hour long video to such succinct sentence.

  • Taharqa(conqueror of Egypt)

    @ Clix

    Well said Clix...
    It takes well learned, knowledgeable and unbiased individuals like you to appreciate African history.

    Like I said earlier most of these Biased Scholars have an agenda supported by racist regimes which will try and suppress any foreign culture that looked too great for the advancement of European civilization.
    It is so funny how these days one is quickly classified as Afro-centrist if they go against the Aryan Model.

    I recently watched "Black Athena: The Debate" on youtube which included Martin Bernal vs Mary Lefkowitz. It was very interesting to see how Mary Lefkowitz had no credible scholarstic points to support her arguments. Furthermore she seemed to overwhelmingly give credit and admiration to Martin Bernal's Black Athena...LoL

    Keep up the good work Clix...
    Peace

  • nat turner

    greetings,

    what afrikan people need to realize is that white supremacy has to keep constantly finding ways to perpetuate itself, through all kinds of trickery, even in the face of irrefutable facts. what the promoters of white supremacy do is pretend for their own sake. therefore, they'll deny that the greeks got their foundational ideas from ancient people who would have had to sit on the back of the bus during the turbulent sixties.

    and there are even some caucasian people, who, though accept rather painstakingly the reality of an ancient kemetic source for greek civilization, still fail to give in to the term "black," as is exemplified by their usage of the term semite. what is a semite? what does a semite look like? and just by saying semite, the image is that of the white people who have adopted the so-called religion of judaism, because of the holocaust or term anti-semite whenever someone speaks disparagingly against the white practitioners of judaism.

    in essence, the term semite does not put an image to the people because it is a term that describes a particular language that first came out of eastern afrikan, and can still be heard in that part of the motherland. so, what does that say about the so-called semitic half of the contribution to so-called greek civilization? and i'd be willing to bet that there were no white semitic-speaking people during the era when the black afrikans and asiatics were influencing the foudations of so-called greek civilization, which bernal had pointed out. and i believe that he is jewish by faith, which makes one wonder whether or not he is being clandestinely attacked.

    again, denial is the greatest mental weapon that the white supremacist construct has at its disposal. it borders on the lines of psychopathology.

    uhuru!

  • vasilis

    what a waist of time!!!
    trying to convince a gang member that there is more to life other than seeing the world in just black or white.
    there are billions of colours in lifes pallette,what benal is trying to say is that africa tought greece how to paint.
    i can accept this as a greek,can anyone else accept,that, greece, in return, managed to paint in such a way,that,the observer,influenced by what they saw,adopted what suited them to create theire OWN style. is'nt this called culture!
    if this is not the case,then why did'nt africa give the world democracy (that's not to say democracy works or not!).
    i am not a racist,but africans seem to think that they are the farthers of all humans,i think you should brace your selves so you wo'nt hurt your pride.new studies in fossils and anthropology are not in the same technology as they once were!what im trying to say is,that you dont like some other
    continent claiming the bigginers of civilization from you.how will you feel,when new finds,put some other civilization older than your history,above yours? will this mean that africas contributions to the world and culture should be credited to that civilization?
    Beauty Peace and lots of sex...

  • clix

    @nat turner

    Point well made!

    @vasilis

    Huh? Can you say that again in English?

  • james

    @ vasilis well said ,I understand you well (maybe it's an iq thing)

  • clix

    @james

    "... wether your right or wrong you’re undermining your argument with being so unpleasant. Reading up though, it’s clear you don’t have an opinion, other than you hate people."

    Does that sound familiar? Yes, you wrote it in response to another person's comment up this thread. This time I would like to use it as a response to you, of course with your permission.

  • james

    @ clix ... wow! did i write that! it sounds so grown up!...i go through phases of mixed feelings towards southern african and jamaicans, including those living in other countries. I honestly try my best to overcome any negativity and sometimes succeed. My struggles with racist feelings are nothing to do with skin colour as such, but more to do with threatening behavior which I have observed (generally) many times from one specific ethnic group. It would not offend me at all to be shown more proof that Africa contributed to the history of Greece. If People have done something then give them some credit. I felt defensive of Vassilis who comes across as a peaceful and good natured person it was unnecessary to dismiss him based on language and grammar. His comments are clear. But maybe i over reacted.

  • clix

    @J P T

    What do you make of those pesky Semites called Ethiopians, who also sport skin color as dark as any in Africa, speak an ancient semitic language and have well documented history of their own?

    Here is a 'newsflash' for you: Amharic is the language spoken by 'black' Africans in Ethiopia, not the Berbers, not to say Berber's are not 'black' or African, but that's another story. It is not only a spoken language, but also a written one that precedes Greek and Latin.

    And finally, modern Copts, just like modern Egyptians, are not representative of ancient Egyptians. Egypt has been occupied by foreigners, the latest ones being Arabs, for centuries, if not millennia. You present modern Copts as true representation of ancient Egyptians, as if today's Arabic population in Egypt is true representation of ancient Egyptians. To understand Egypt's relationship with other Africans, read Egyptians' own writings (at least the translation of it). Egyptians as early as 25th Century BC have considered Ethiopia and the land further south to be their original home. For a supposedly enlightened and literate mass, the west puts a lot of emphasis on pictures and other Egyptian artifacts. Fortunately the anthropologists don't, and have put many of your childish notions of what the ancient Egyptian artifacts represent to rest.

  • vasilis

    To Everyone,
    This is "MY" last attempt in explaining how irrational and damaging such documentries are,when theire base line is just black or white!!
    Im a greek who also had the pleasure in growing up in one of the worlds greatest and largest island on this earth,Australia.
    Despite it's beauty though,anyone not from english decent,but greek for eg like me was what the ozzis(australians)labled Wogs,something similar to slant eyes for asians or red necks or neger for any blacks not just africans,even the indegenous peoples of the land they sloughted to concour,the ABORIGANIES,these lovely peacefull people,coulde'nt escape from been labled!!.
    As if the ozzis were of great decent,the convicts of england
    were degrading all the influx of great cultures on arrival to the land they murdered to get.
    Despite this hard,difficult and very violent bigging,australia,along with it's truely RECOGNIZED RIGHTFUL
    OWNERS of the land,theABORIGENIES,all the great and not so great cultures from every where,and i mean every where you could think of,have finally somehow fused all these cultures together and are,and have been,for the past 200 years,together with new zealand,the newest civilization on earth.
    Finally.my point is,to those who don't like colour or even
    shades of grey and see only BLACK AND WHITE is:
    The comming together of cultures is like the comming together of MAN and WOMAN,this comming together at first can
    be a violent act,only with the comming together of two cultures can the ultimate be achieved....CIVILIZATIONS.
    Yes,i cant help it,Just like civilizations,BABIES are the
    achievement of the "CUMMING" together of MAN and WOMAN!!!!
    Without Fusion,well......it's just a wank!!
    vasilis.

  • Taharqa (Conqueror of Egypt)

    @ james

    Look my friend...few of the youngest European generation have respect towards other cultures and and their contribution towards our modern world. We do not even need Martin Bernal's Black Athena to accept this overwhelming factual knowledge. Any body with time or passion for true history could write a " Black Athena " book based on Ancient Greek writers and their description of Africans as well as Ancient Greek sculptures and romantic art.
    Lucian records,
    that the Ethiopians were the first to deliver the
    doctrines of astrology to men and that their
    reputation for wisdom was great.
    Diodorus spoke highly
    of the civilized Ethiopians who inhabited Meroe
    and the land adjoining Egypt. He regarded the
    Ethiopians as the first people to worship the
    gods, and most Egyptian institutions as
    derivatives of their civilization.

    The list of these type of descriptions or comments are found in old Italian libraries, old Greek volumes translated in Latin, Italian or English. Thus the evidence is heavily used in radical European Historian's work to demonstrate the overwhelming African influence on Greek Civilization.

    Other scholars had done this type of work decades before Martin Bernal. So Martin Bernal is not the first European and will not be the last to do this kind of work. In a few years I will not be surprised if a whole new curriculum is created in Universities which focuses only on this Subject. They could not be blamed if they don't know any better. Now if the real information is overwhelmingly available to them and they are still in denial, then that becomes a problem. All groups of people should be given credit for whatever they contributed to our modern society or in the past.

    Peace!!!

  • Taharqa (Conqueror of Egypt)

    @ clix
    I want to complement your comment by adding to this:

    @ james

    " It would not offend me at all to be shown more proof that Africa contributed to the history of Greece"

    well common sense should prove this.
    One of the first known intellectual written work by the ancient Greek ever was " the Iliad and the Odyssey " by Homerus (the real name)
    Before the epic was actually written, according to verifiable sources and strong factual documents this famous poetic epic was only known orally PERIOD. Yes the Greeks were once an Oral culture...LoL. They did not just wake up in the blue and started writing...LoL
    Thousands of Greek scholars poured into Egytp and studied ancient Egyptian cosmology, technology, mathematics, etc
    e.g. the Greek Hippocrates...thus the word hypocrite IMO is the "father of plagiarism" in our modern standards.
    Now if you cherish true European history I suggests you make that part of your historical projects to figure this out yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Now in the original or AUTHENTIC works of Homerus most goddesses are depicted with UNDENIABLE negroid features.
    You got to remember that Ancient Greece did not draw skin color lines. The Romans started this nonsense after the Nubians defeated them in the battle of Syene in 23 BC. This obviously led to a counter attack which penetrated as far as Napata. After this the romans took Nubian Captives and sold them to slavery in Europe and beyond. Despite the military setback King Natekamani reigned from 12 B.C. to 12 A.D.
    Some hardcore and radical "Euro-Afro" historians who were actually Europeans pointed that out. Basil Davidson, a British historian and Africanist is one of the few, including Joel Freeman. There are thousands of honest European written books about the true history of Europe and Africa. Martin Bernal is just one of the youngest generation of these " Rebel European Historians "
    It is quite sad that these " Rebel Historians " are quite hated and if not threatened with their lives. Sometimes they had to relocate to Africa and were quite compelled to study African History as well!!!

    True knowledge is sweat...It is quite a waste when people decide to ignore real information...Go Wikileaks...LoL!!!

  • vasilis

    where did the egyptians get thiere knowledge from?i asked further up if anyone can answer who built the pyramids.
    would anyone like to try?
    clix.....taharqa, maybe you can enlighten us!!

  • teh

    at chief
    18 ooo years and 'my ancestors' wow
    18 000 years ago they were 'our' ancestors, not 'my'

  • Chief

    @ teh

    The L1 haplogroup is the specific group of people who settled in Nubia/Kush before migrating to West Afrika. I am descended from that group. L2 haplogroup migrated Out Of Afrika eastward before crossing into Australia around 70,000 years ago. L2 branched off from East Asia northward to the Mongolian region and and eastward to the far East. The Mongolian connection spread westward into Europe and Eastward into the Americas. Our common ancestor has been designated L0 and given the scientific name "mitochondrial Eve." The L1 group stayed in Africa and remains indigenous in many nations on the African Continent.

  • vasilis

    @clix,
    I know it does'nt have a magic bullet answer like you say.
    There are so many little things we know that are making people,
    academics or not,realy think about what we've been fed so many years now.thats why i mentioned the pyramids which is just a small example!
    Take mythology,think about it,what do all mythologies around the world have in common? Gods.Gods who come from the sky!!
    You see,not only we have the pyramids as physical evidence,but,also in writtsn form as well.
    So,who are "our ancestors",like chief was very well corrected
    by teh?
    ps
    No,i dont want to read any more books that don't offer me a
    wider perspective.maybe you should read my comment futher up.
    comment number 128.clix are you female?nice talking to ya.

  • Chief

    2 vasilis

    Teh didn't make a correction; teh made an assumption that is incorrect.

  • james

    lets all make friends and start a new movement called human centricism ...vassilis you love clix just because she a girl, but i appreciate you hairy legs more. x

  • vasilis

    @james,
    hahahahahah,your a killer !
    I do agree on the new movement,though it will be hard to turn
    stubben heads like chiefs in to understanding that we are all
    one,and in the same boat.
    Come on chief,how'bout it.why don't we put a stop to all those claiming to been more supreme than the other,after all,the english and the americans are the ones that are making all the money through acheology anyway,lets look at history from an above view instead of a cowboy or indian point of view,where if your white,the cowboys are good and the indians are bad,and if your indinan,the indians are good and the cowboys are bad.
    Lets put the hitlers the kings the queens the chiefs and the
    bosses aside and look at each other at last.Lets WAKE UP.

  • Chief

    @ vasilis

    Do you detest facts? Do you feel inferior? I have offered no statements about supremacy. Ttruth: We all come from one mother who survived whatever befell mankind about 180,000 years ago. That would be the L0 genetic origins of the two daughters of 'mitochondrial Eve' whose DNA markers are found in every human on the planet. Out of one has come many and I have made no claims otherwise. Thanks to National Geographics Genome Project, I know specifics that are validated by scientific methods that pinpoints the 'daughter' through which my lineage is derived. Why does that irritate you?

  • clix

    @Chief

    I caution you from getting entangled with 'vasilis' and 'james'. These two are highly oversexed buffoons who attempt to steer every conversation into a sexual direction.

    Unfortunately the owner of this site deleted most of their infantile back and forth on this thread a week or so ago, giving them a clean slate to start it all again. They are not interested in information and the exchange of it, unless you choose to gratify their underdeveloped sexual sensibilities.

  • vasilis

    @CHIEF
    you must be joking,whats genetics got to do with this?
    this is a culture isue.....that has you (black africans) sayingthat greece owes its intire history,glorious or not,to egypt.
    not mali not camaroon not libya not marocco not tynisia not ethiopia not anywhere else,just egypt.you must be joking again!why don'tt you see the documentry again,and this time
    "listen" to what every one that speaks has to say and not just the parts that interest you.especialy the part where it actualy goes to greece..thera or santorini as it's now called.apart from trading which nobody denies,where on earth d"you" see any resemblence between the two cultures.where is your art architecture philosophy religion democracy to compare our "inferior" culture that had to copy egypt.
    by the way,are you egytian?,because if your not,you should stop talking about them.they dont consider themselves black
    africans.....or did you miss that bit of info as well !!!!
    i watched it again to conferm that benal is a total wa.....
    @clix
    i wish the owner did publish them,it will show you have no
    sense of humour!did you read comment 128?i dare you!!

  • Chief

    @ clix

    Thanks for the heads up and I certainly will comply. I've been away from the site for some time now, but I can see that it is what it will be.

  • menelik1&2

    The original man has been on the planet the longest so of course he would be the father of civilization.Get over it.The ancient Kemet people still got you in aw to his day and that was the same reaction the greeks had then.Face it they are known for the whitewash ,Jesus was white right.Peace

  • menelik1&2

    @Taharqa.You and Clix are right on point.They act like this guy was the first to tell the truth about the origins of civilization.This information is old news to any serious scholar.Also the inhabitaints of lands today are not the original people in an ancient time particularly in north africa.If i fell from the sky yesterday and landed in the US I may believe that whites were the oringinal inhabitaints of the land and how long did it take for that to happen 300/400 years. So things are not always how it seems today.Peace

  • james

    @ vassilis , i wouldn't bother trying to engage with clix or chief , they sidestep honest simple opinions and ideas, and do not seem to have any humor. I think they prefer to hide behind a further education vocabulary (of sorts). anyway when are you going to relent and engage in some sensual Caucasian bonding . Love you x

  • vasilis

    @ menelik
    you seem to be preety sure that man evolved in africa!and even if it were true,would that mean that man would'nt have the imagination to "move" forward,create new ideas,better his past?
    arre our farthers the limit of our imagination?would'nt that be sad!don't you want your offspring to do better than you?
    whether greece is an offspring to africa is yet to be confirmed
    in the respect to your "original man theory",this is what greece contributed to the"human race".rome took it further,then
    england...america...and so on.why does it have to be all african? you see,athena can not be black,just like rome is not athens or rome is not china,we are all unique!why is this difficult to understand?it's not a matter of who was here first.
    @ james
    how are ya?i do agree with you,they dont seem to understand
    my way of telling them that it makes no difference.anyway.
    waiting for the summer to 'bond'james..haha(james bond).!!!

  • james

    @ vasilis, Their argument is about perceiving the recording of history as unbalanced against Africas contribution and in response to that the afrocentrics maybe go too far in the other direction. The Data that we have, reliable or otherwise can easily be manipulated to fit one agenda or the other, and the debate goes on and on, at least we are free to explore these things. I like your take on things vassilis and agree with you. I'm moving to Athens soon, come and stay with me we can have a platonic relationship.

    I feel a bit bad for dismissing clix and reacting to her insults. two wrongs don't make a right.

  • menelik1&2

    @vasilis.You can't come up with a new idea without a foundation and the original man is the foundation.Clix gave you the key but you are too egotistical to open the door.What is today called ethiopia is the cradle of civilization study the Oromo people.Next study the Solomonic Dynastic tradition.Also by the way who cares who built the pyramids all you need to know is it was built through trail and error(by men).There were plenty of pyramids that were built incorrectly but the foundation was there and they eventually got it right.Last but not least the word ethiopia is greek meaning burnt faces after coming into contact with what today is called egypt this is what they saw.So their own language tells you what they saw in what today is called egypt those dark burnt beautiful faces.Their own language has betrayed you.Peace

  • clix

    @menelik1&2

    Well said again.

    As I cautioned Chief above, proceed with caution with these two, as knowledge and understanding is not what they're here for, as you can tell from their comments.

  • james

    @ clix, ok so you want us to believe that the ancient Egyptians were black based on anthropology. and that the Greeks got their inspiration from these people. So the problem seems to be that there is either not enough clear evidence to back this up , or that their is conflicting evidence (otherwise we wouldn't be here debating the issue) While I can accept that 100 years ago there may have been some kind of anti black agenda in how people perceived history, I don't believe that is the case anymore (based on the on going efforts to integrate and accept black people over the last 50 years, especially in educational establishments) 50 years is not a long time and I suppose there is a lot more ground to cover and I hope that whatever the truth is it will come to the surface and be accepted. That is where i stand in this debate today. Although i do agree with vassilis that whether or not the Greeks were inspired to some extent by black Egyptians or Arab Egyptians does not really matter and can be compared to countless other examples of cultures influencing each other. To lay claim to the achievements of Greece on some sort of racial basis is obviously provocative and in my opinion, a bit far fetched. To counter arguments by then saying that the current population all descend from black Africans whether true or not, does not seem to be the original point of the discussion. Feel free to ignore me, I am quite used to ignorance, but that's another story.

  • vasilis

    @menelik
    your right....the whole world is black and we owe our existence
    to you.i mean,how can i not see the resembelence between all the curreent "cultures" of the world with africa...
    you know,even the idea of trying to express my point of view on this stems from africa.can you imagine what the world would have been like if protoman did'nt equip us with imagination?
    your right again,trial and error biult the pyramids,even the one's that nobody has a clue about their age!
    i can,now that you mention it,see the resemelence between the
    chinese man and the african man!their biuldings,identical,ok
    they modfied their swords a 'little',.....their language,totaly african sounding.differing a bit in grammar.
    WAKE UP MAN....LOOK AROUND YOU...BENAL IS MAKING MONEY FROM
    FROM PEOPLE LIKE YOU,CLIX,CHIEF AND EVERY ONE WHO THINKS LIKE
    YOU SAD PEOPLE.

  • menelik1&2

    @vasilis...No you owe your existance to The Most High. I really believe you think I'm trying to convince you, no I was attempting to inform you on some things.If you really care go study the origin of languages that will open up alot for you.Also I do see the resemblance in the african and the chinese and it's the same resemblance I see in 90% of the earths population that being dark hair and dark eyes.Clix,Taharqa,Chief,Nat Turner,and myself have lead you to the water if you refuse to drink then die of thirst.Peace

  • clix

    @james

    I have no problem engaging in a debate with you so long as you're debating the issue at hand. That's the case even if we disagree fundamentally. The discussion ends and I resort to ignoring your comments when they diverge from that premise at or when they become personal attacks.

    I agree with your stance that there has been a consorted effort to discredit the African of his/her contribution to world civilizations. The Afrocentric doesn't argue that Africa is the birth place of all civilizations, despite the assertions by biologists that the continent is the cradle of humanity. The Afrocentric argues that Africans have contributed significantly to the world and where we find ourselves today. Many, like vasilis, take the dire conditions Africa finds herself today in the larger scheme of things and seek to invalidate her contribution to the world historically.

    Yes, I also agree with you things are changing. Fifty years do not make up for the egregious misrepresentations Africa has suffered for the last 600 years. We're at our infancy in turning that tide. We will make our own mistakes and we'll stumble from time to time, as anybody who's trying to do anything would. But more importantly, we'll threaten the entrenched establishment, who would come up with cute names for us and do whatever necessary to hinder our progress, including resorting to the old racist tactics.

    The world is changing, and for the better, although it may not appear so to people who live in North America and Europe. Although it might not happen in our lifetime, I am confident all peoples of this earth will be afforded their rightful place in history and be treated with the dignity such place allows.

    @vasilis

    There are much better ways of making money than academic books that are terribly popular and barely cover the cost of their publications. That's why you don't see large publishers picking up these type of books for publishing. As a result, higher institutions of learning have established their own publishing houses, often absorbing the publishing and distribution cost as part of their operational cost. Bernal's books were published by Rutgers University Press. Try another argument. They're kind of getting entertaining.

  • vasilis

    i give up..the end.

  • Taharqa (Conqueror of Egypt)

    @
    vasilis
    Don't give up just like that.
    The fact is that you are in denial and know deep in your heart that you can't repudiate the overwhelming facts that are being bombarded unto you. What is happening now within the AFRICAN community is a the African Renaissance or African historical crusade which can't be stopped of which not only African Americans are embracing but dedicated Europeans who are also willing to know their true history as well.

    I think most people fail to understand that by doing some effective and unbiased research about European history you are also in parallel doing an Authentic history of Africa itself. And that goes for any civilization regardless of where you come or originate from PERIOD

    I'm pretty sure that if we still had an overwhelming number racist European anthropologist and scientists supported by racist regimes just like in the 18th and 19th century we will be talking about the GENOME PROJECT in a whole different direction where the POLYGENETIC theory (multiple origins of the human race from different continents) rules over the MONOGENETIC theory (single origin of the human race from the African continent)

    Oh just to throw out there...In 1912, a ENGLISH geologist attempted to prove that the origins of humans had begun in England by constructing together a prototype fossil supposedly found on British soil. The fabricated skull was later found to have been a fake by an honest English anthropologist in the 1950?s. It was determined to have been constructed using the mandible and canine teeth of a monkey.

    My point is that it was quite important for this English Geologist to push the propaganda and to show the whole world that the Caucasian group of people are a superior groups of people.
    I know for sure that various supremacist organizations are pretty unhappy about the outcome of the Famous Genome Project...LoL

    I invite all of you to comment on the post: " When the moors ruled Europe"

  • james

    @ clix , thank you , i think we are largely in agreement when it comes down to it.

    @vassilis ....don't give up , i am still your loyal fan and admirer

  • Nlar

    Whites (Europeans) believe and believed that they were destined to rule (Manifest Destiny) and, obviously as history has proved, rewritten history to show that the "great civilizations" hailed from Greece and Rome to support their Manifest Destiny theory. They have destroyed and continue to destroy Black peoples and their cultures in Africa, indigenous populations globally, and other peoples of color. Is this what these "great civilizations" do?? Destroy?? I thought they were supposed to build up, not destroy!! I look forward to the end of their rule!!

  • james

    @nlar Whites do appear to have ruled much of the world in the past and some of my ancestors were involved with that trend. But today there is a huge amount of racial mixing in all aspects of life both with the rulers and the ruled. I think there is something much more prevalent destroying lives and that is the greedy excesses of corporate capitalism and I am aware to some extent of how that is making the lives of people miserable. We have plutocracy rearing it's ugly head in the west too. I think that by your view of racial divide you are being part of the problem, not the solution. Greece and Rome and Egypt were great civilisations and it seems clear to me that to some extent there was inspiration from other cultures.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_2WMI7WQTHVEXZV62SD2EOIEPMQ Milos

    Why is everyone so caught up in race? It's funny to see people arguing about something as simple as the skin colour of the Ancient Egyptians. Embrace and appreciate the contributions the ancient civilizations have made for the world as a whole and stop being so bitter.
    It is not just the whites that are promoting racism by saying that the world owes its knowledge to the ancient Greeks. Saying that the world owes its knowledge to any single peoples is bound to spark some racism.
    The fact is that no single civilization came up with everything they did on their own. We learn from other people and i think that is how so many civilizations prospered along the Mediterranean (Greeks, Egyptians, Akkad, Babylon, etc.). It is because of trade of goods and knowledge that people were able to develop technology further not because one race was superior over the other.
    Watch the doc "Guns, Germs and Steel", i recommend it ;)

  • Clix (????)

    Some are very bitter because they have been relegated to a place of subhuman existence in the last 600 years.

  • Xbow

    Its always nice to have someone to blame for your troubles, right Nlar? To be sure without the intrusion of the white race into Africa that continent would be the center of reason, technology, culture and everything else that is good and great. The people of Sub Saharan Africa never were broken up into hundreds of squabbling tribal units that were at continuous war with each other. On contrary, prior to the European invasions Africa was a place of peace, plenty, unity and compassion. Those grafted white devils sure know how to screw up a good thing.

  • Xbow

    Its always nice to have someone to blame for your troubles, right Nlar? To be sure without the intrusion of the white race into Africa that continent would be the center of reason, technology, culture and everything else that is good and great. The people of Sub-Saharan Africa never were broken up into hundreds of squabbling tribal units that were at continuous war with each other. On contrary, prior to the European invasions Africa was a place of peace, plenty, unity and compassion. Those grafted white devils sure know how to screw up a good thing.

  • Guest

    Okay, how about having your original history misconstrued for many years, and then find out that it was false information. As human beings, we take pride in our culture, it gives us an esteem about ourselves when we know the truth about ourselves( I dare any of you to deny this) When that truth is twisted into an untruth; your normal reaction will be to defend it because now you know the truth. It is a beautiful thing to know the history of the origins of where you come from. To rob a person of the freedom to know there truth and not allowing them to enjoy that;and take pride in knowing it is an ultimate insult and an extreme case of racism. So, blacks who want to know and let everyone else know that Egyptians were black are not being racist. That sounds ridiculous. Racism comes from the people who hid this truth .We are just facsinated, as is everyone else; of the true intellect, color, and beginnings of people who we all are connected to. It just so happens that the Egyptians happened to be black, KEMETIC. Allow us to enjoy our moment of just knowing the truth. Who wouldn't want to know the truth? After all, we are all SUPPOSED to be civilized human beings. Aren't we?

  • Xbow

    If it pleases you to believe that the Egyptians were pure black Africans more power to you. However the fact is that the Egyptians were a multi ethnic group and were not of any particular race. Copts,nubians,ect were all represented at all levels of their society. My question for you is why are you so ashamed of your African roots that you feel the need to make such an absurd claim? Hell my ancient ancestors were from Dacia and were quite involved with slaughtering each other and even engaged in human sacrifice. But not to the same degree that the Carthaginians were involved with child sacrifice. Grow up and accept yourself and don't expect others to justify your existence.

    I have another question, why do you suppose that Sub Saharan Africa was so technologically backward when compared to Europe, Asia Minor and Asia? If you think that I'm going to say Race was a factor you are wrong. The causation was simply that Sub Saharan Africa was geographically isolated and not a nexus for migrations. With migrations come clashes of culture and competing technologies; especially military technology. It is war between indigenous and invading cultures that out of necessity accelerates the pace of technological development. Its really as simple as that and nothing to be ashamed of.

  • Guest

    LOL, Why are you implying that I am ashamed. I never said that I was ashamed, I am actually honored to have been descending from the Egyptian race as you should be also. I am speaking about who they are so confidently because I am proud of who I am, and that I came from them. I'm sorry that you misunderstood my response. If you could, ponder on my response first, let it marinate before replying. To put this in lamens terms so that you can understand' I am not ashamed of anything, I am speaking openly and confidently that the Egyptians were not "multi-racial",but they were Kemetic, Negroid, etc. I'm sorry that you are angry, but wait awhile and soon your anger will cease. Just to let you know, "the truth shall set you free".

  • http://profiles.google.com/bigpreme Supreme Mathematics

    You have no idea what your talking about. The original Egyptians are still in Egypt. They live in the South of the country where the ancient kingdom sprang up and guess what, they were are still are BLACK. See the problem with uneducated types like yourself is, you know nothing about history. The people in the norther part of Egypt today are ARABS that arrived there in the 6th century and thats a FACT. Before them came the Romans and then the Greeks. So the white people of the northern part of egypt today are a mix of those groups with the predominate ethnicity being Arab stock. The people of the south (again where the kingdoms began and stayed for many centuries) were and still are black. Have you even ever been to Egypt? Go to the south and look at the tombs and temples. They painted themselves as black. The only time you generally see a asiatic or white is when they are coming so black woman's hair or fanning of the Pharaoh.

    Now to further illustrate my point, Egypt isnt even the oldest kingdom in that area. There was one in Northern Sudan which was the first to have Hieroglyphics and the first to have pyramids and the first to have a Pharaoh. This kingdom was called Qustul and it is at the very least 200 years older than ancient Egypt. Before Qustul and Egypt there was a kingdom in the sahara desert (before it was a desert). Once the Sahara started to turn into a desert the people started to migrate into what is now egypt and sudan and founded those later kingdoms (Qustul and then Kemet/Meser/Egypt or whatever you want to call it). The people in the Sahara desert where black. Now how do we know this? Well because they painted themselves on the walls in that area and those paintings are still there and guess what? They painted themselves BLACK! Get your facts straight before trying to educate others.

    As for Subsaharan africa being backward, are you retarded? Mali had a university while Europe was not bathing and 90% of the population couldn't even read. Tribes like the Dogon know about the science of far off solar systems that westerners were just able to detect (not even see) in the 1970s. Subsaharan Africa had libraries again like the one in Mali. We had greater Zimbabwe (look it up), the great empire of Ghana, we had sea navigable boats before Europe ever did (they just discovered such a boat in Nigeria a few years ago). We hand kingships while you people were still neanderthals. It was us who bred with neanderthal to make what is now the populations of the earth. We created modern day human beings, outside of Africa, again look it up. Every group on the planet outside of Africa has Neanderthal DNA. Also, There were not many people in may parts of Subsaharan Africa at first. They were all in the Sahara before it became a desert and as the desertification took place they migrated southward into west africa and other places. So again, go crack open a effin book before trying to denigrate Africa. We are the mothers and father of civilization. What sort of idiot thinks the first people on the planet earth would be out done technologically by a group of people we spawned (with the help of Neanderthals, and thats a fact.

    To further illustrate my point. NOt all tribes in Africa were technologically advanced just like Europe. If you go to easter europe you will see people still craping in holes in their backyard and not having electricity and living like thye did 100 yrs ago. They are not as advanced technology like much of western Europe. Why? Well because they were not as good at stealing technology and passing it off as their own like the Western Europeans were

  • Xbow

    You are hilarious and more than just a little pathetic as are all ethnocentric fools.

  • Xbow

    Shaseera10 and Supreme Mathematics sound like a pair of pseudo intellectual gas bags desperately in search of a more noble heritage for themselves. How utterly pathetic.

  • Guest

    To Xbow, it is ashame that you would ignore facts. I am very hurt for you that you are so displaced and mentally brainwashed, though you wouldn't mind being brainwashed; because you're brainwashed in your favor. Don't disagree with facts, be educated and dispute them. Your sorry reality " you can not". So, that infuriates you even more. One more comment, look at the bust of Menez or Namer, the first Egyptian king and tell me that is not a black man and I'll shut up. The Nile Valley civilization experienced many kings long before Namer; he's just our cousin to the North but Africa had many kingdoms before Egypt( Kemet).I am sorry they lied to you, just take some truth serum before you do your studies. In some cases the truth sets you free, but I see in your case it's going to hurt. I really didn't want to reply to you but I figured you do need some cultural help, and thanks for wanting to be us. By the way, Imitation is the best form of flattery and any time that you would think that the Egyptians were you; when they said themselves they were from the beginning of the Nile, painted themselves African, the culture is still the same; then you are very sick and mentally deranged, and you need help. Please let me help you with your identity crisis.

  • http://profiles.google.com/bigpreme Supreme Mathematics

    Xbow just do some research, its very simple. Read Black Athena by Bernal, go research Qustul (if you do a google search for Qustul AND the University of Chicago), go research the kingdom that was in the Sahara desert. Or go get a plane ticket and go to Egypt and see who lives in the south of egypt. Crack open a history book and read up on how Arabs got to Egypt seeing as how arabic is not the native language there. Go research the temples in the South in Egypt and see what color the pharaohs and queens painted themselves. Lastly go research Neanderthal DNA in modern humans. Nothing pseudo about facts and history. The utterly pathetic thing is you are so willing to put your ignorance on display and wear it like a badge.

  • http://profiles.google.com/bigpreme Supreme Mathematics

    Whites did not rule much of the world until the fall of Egypt. Before that Africans ruled and they ruled far longer than whites ever did. Egypt alone is 3500 hundred years old. Well actually now that belief is being challenged because some Egyptologist believe Egypt could be as old as 10,000 years old. Even after the fall of Egypt, blacks took over again during Europeans "Dark Ages". Do you know why they were dark ages? Because the "moors" who were black africans did not allow the europeans out of Europe. They cut off access to the Mediterranean. Wasn't until the African moorish empire fell and the Arabs replaced them that Europe gain access to the world again. So lets not give the whites more credit than they are due.

  • http://profiles.google.com/bigpreme Supreme Mathematics

    I need to correct you here. Egypt did not get a darn thing from Greece, Akkadians or Babylon. Egypt was a offshoot of Qustul which was a kingdom to the south. Qustul was in present day Northern Sudan and they were the first with Hieroglyphics, they were the first with Pharaohs and the double crown. Before the advent of Qustul there was a kingdom just south of that and before that all those groups lived in the Sahara desert. The Sahara used to be a lush, fertile place. Then when the cimate changed and it became a desert the people moved to the east and some went south. These were all indigenous black african groups.

    As for why race is important, well firstly people know what is possible by their forefathers. If your forefathers never did anything great or so you are told then you will believe that nothing great is possible. It is not until you see your people did great things that you know anything is possible. To put someone to sleep all you have to do is rob them of their history, culture and who they are as a people. Knowing the accomplishments of your forefathers is very important.

    As to recognizing the accomplishments of ones people as being racist is absurd. Is it racist when the world says America gave us automobiles, or TV or whatever else? Be serious! There is nothing wrong with paying homage to those who came before you.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ian-Kirkpatrick-Van-Gaal/1004949550 Ian Kirkpatrick Van Gaal

    Black Athena – The Fabrication of Ancient Greece...

    History in this documentary seems pretty much distorted. Even within Egyptology, the facts are twisted. With this documentary, the researchers leave out the fact that to build pyramids one had to have known trigonometry. They fail to match the dates and the facts.

    Or is it because they believe that pyramids were built by aliens?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000153582426 Matt Coates

    of cores the greeks were not black, thats just silly look at the statues they are of white greeks they are clearly not black. and they were not jewish either they are europeans maybe there were a few jews, but it was mostly European. democracy is European

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000153582426 Matt Coates

    Xbow, you are right, thats a bit harsh be its true. history is not politicly correct

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000153582426 Matt Coates

    but they were not black, that is not the truth

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000153582426 Matt Coates

    the more i watch this the more crazy it gets. western civilization is European!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000153582426 Matt Coates

    rammses II had red hair look it up if you dont trust me. red hair is a very European thing

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000153582426 Matt Coates

    but the egyptians were white. the blacks never ruled the world

  • Nakor420

    If you read the ancient texts left by the sumerians it clearly states that the anunnaki were fair skinned. The first humans where dark skinned, because they took on the color of the clay of our earth, because the fetus that was to become the "Adamu" was incubated in a clay pot before being inserted into the womb of a female Homo-Erectus.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_B43SJTOKBXOO44SSPN4AZARZDA Erin Fearn

    Well obviously the Ancient Greeks weren't white like people today. There are thousands of years between us and them and it's a bit silly to believe that they'd look similar to modern man.The Greeks didn't come from nowhere, the people had to be transplants from other civilizations nearby; so, it is not a stretch at all to believe they had Egyptian and Phoenician roots. Greek statues were also intended to be painted, so the elegant, white marble is not exactly what they meant to be expressing. Who knows what they actually looked like and who cares. The ladies in the documentary had it right, it's not about the race it's about the culture. It's still awesome to think that they started modern civilization no matter what they looked like.

  • Clix (????)

    It's still awesome to think that they started modern civilization no matter what they looked like.

    You know the Greek civilization saw its best days over 2000 years ago, right? That cannot be construed to be 'modern' in any sense of the word. The civilizations discussed in this video are pretty ancient ones.

  • Clix (????)

    What a silly notion. Let's say that Ramesses II's hair originally was in fact red, just for argument sake. Let's even say that Rammesses II was a white man who somewhat made it to Egypt nearly 5000 years ago and became a Pharaoh of Egypt. What does that prove on its own about the racial make up of the ancient Egyptians?

    Martin Bernal pieces together archeological, linguistic and religious history of the Egyptians to come up with the conclusion he had come, and all you can say is Ramesses II had red hair, thus ancient Egyptians must have been white?

  • Clix (????)

    Who claimed Greeks were black? Have you even seen the film?

  • Clix (????)

    I love mythology. But, this is more of an empirical kind of discussion.

  • Olaniyan Mustipher

    *deleted*

  • You Do Not See Me

    EXCELLENT!!!!!

  • George

    Wont say much because I didnt watch this properly..

    But I'll have to agree that after the Christians 391 AD and then the Ottomans 1453 AD, Im very suprised that there were left monuments from ancient Greece standing...

  • Eniki520

    red hair doesnt make Ramesses II a white man. the African people are the most genetically diverse on the earth. there is no reason the natives of Africa couldn't have red hair and dark skin.

  • Eniki520

    how did hey turn white if they all were all brown?

  • wafrika

    deleted.

  • Nakor420

    Well, that comes later in the tablets. Basically, one of the Anunnaki took one of the newly created human females as a concubine. She in turn gave birth to what the tablets call "the first civilised man", named Adapu. This child is known as Enoch in the bible. He is the first fair skinned human. Basically, he had more Anunnaki genes than Adamu's breed of human. So Adamu = Adam (neanderthal) , then one of his great great great grand daughters bangs an Anunnaki and gives birth to Adapu. Adapu = Enoch (Homo-Sapien). This is why we can't find the missing links in the evolutionary chain. Now you might ask why we have all different races of Homo-Sapien now, but that's another part of the story from much later in the tablets.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000153582426 Matt Coates

    u can still find paintings from the greeks and they are very clearly white

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Langston-Johnson/100000589492127 Langston Johnson

    why was northern europe so undeveloped and backwards, where is norway's, sweden or germany's ancient structures or empires? the only ancient things you'l find in places like england is usually what the romans built when they invaded those places.If it wasnt for egypt there would have been no greece or roman empire. Now the the evidences and facts are starting to surface and theyre finding that Ta Seti the great civilization south of egypt may have been the father of egyptian culture itself...

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Langston-Johnson/100000589492127 Langston Johnson

    The greeks of today arent a clear representation of the greeks of yesteryear, many may have had caucasian features but so does many east africans. The ancient greeks came into contact with egyptians and other darkskinned cultures, and from the looks of it the pelasgians (early greeks) clearly appear as blacks in early greek art. So it seems clear that the very foundation of greek people were a black race that predates the lighter complexion immigrants or invaders.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Langston-Johnson/100000589492127 Langston Johnson

    Lets just say rameses hair does appears as red, this guy was burried thousands of years ago in a chamber, what is the possibility of some type of unexplain reaction taken place causing his hair to be discolored. If you really want to know what an egyptian look like ask the ancient writers, herodotus said that they were blackskinned and curley haired and the ancient greeks also refered to them as melampodes or the black footed ones. As far as red hair is concerned look for a red head egyptian today and you wont find any, what do you really think the chances of finding one 2-3 thousands years ago and he happened to be sitting on the throne?

  • http://twitter.com/1NJ12 neil jamieson

    i respect all cultures and its clear the ancient greeks had alot of influence from middle east and egypt but some things here are just getting took to far. I think alot of history has been lost and damn religion is the the biggest problem for that. Of course there was great african empires apart from the egyptians but what saying the greeks were infact africans is kinda the same as what alot of you are trying to claim that white people are doing trying to claim black history which i dont even see btw. What i have read and learned is that the middle east and egypt were the greatest influences on greece which is just natural as they were where the biggest powers of the day were the same as today where the european countries has set the tone for the world today. Going so far as to claiming every great ancient empire was black its like come on man give me a break next it will be the chinnese

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000153582426 Matt Coates

    o my god how van they even call this a documentary. they are just looking for a way to give them selves a prouder past

  • anand v

    This is a very good point. Even I have wondered how this is possible.

  • BlackLotuz

    This remark is to an earlier comment about Ramses II having red hair. It may very well have been, but so what, I've seen plenty of modern Ethiopians (Kushites) and Sundanese (Nubians) with hair like that. He was definitely a black African like most during that time before being seriously invaded. And the truth is still out there waiting to be discovered, but the powers at be are covering up the proof with the likes of the Aswan Dam and the most recent dam proposed for another area of Sudan (Nubia) where ancient temples have been found.
    Hotep!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/John-Lewis/100000123181756 John Lewis

    What are the possibilities that the corpse that the classical Europocentrics claim is Ramses II is really not Ramses II but someone else ??? The Europocentrics are devious in their attempts to portray African Negroes as White Europeans.

  • js marshall

    You all sound like ignoramuses.

    Clearly, erudition is not to be found in the comments section of this site.

    But then again, what can you expect from people who most likely prefer edutainment to books.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Terry-Beaton/100000940529089 Terry Beaton

    You hardly sound like a snob at all!

  • ENE78

    Matt, who are they? You sound ignorant. Africans do have a past like everyone else? I can tell you as a de-facto that they were numerous kingdoms in Africa timbouctou, sokoto, Benin, Ibo, Ashanti to name a few. Egypt is not the only civilization in the continent of Africa worth having a mention. I for one am part West African and Part Egyptian (North African) and believe me there are significant parallels between both the cultures even in terms of some of the words? This cannot be uncanny? I am not claiming that this documentary is valid. However, I can say that the ancient Egyptians may not have been sub saharan african but they were certainly Afro- Asiatic that is a melange of Semitic and Sub-saharan lineage. If you go to Egypt today this is evident.

    P.S I do not think the ancient Greeks were sub-saharan Africa ?? The greeks weren't the original inhabitants they came from the north of the balkans. The ancient hellenes where probably similar to all aryan tribes of that area i.e. the persians, northern indians, georgians etc. The original Inhabitants the pellasgoi were probably semitic and more akin to the ancient Eyptians/Berber peoples that is again afro asiatic but certainly not sub saharan african? I dont use the word black here as it can mean different things to different peoples!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_FQGFHW6DOK5EQLPWSVOORCJ2BQ Brandon

    there os no difference between a north African and a west African besides names and culture, appearance is similar a Japanese and Chinese.

  • Guest

    What? I can assure you there are a lot of differences. I have been to Egypt, Tunisia, Morocco, Western Sahara, Mauritania, Mali, Burkina Faso, Togo, Benin, Ghana....differences in people are obvious and many.
    I have not seen this doc so i am not commenting on the doc, i am commenting on your comment.
    Now i may watch the doc.
    az

  • ordinaryLEE

    why is anti semetics even involved in this debate..Its a rediculous argument for the white side of the subject when we all know africa as the cradle of life.The dogons and zuni tribes were here long before egyptian pharoes etc.So realistically there is no argument to have.just common sense and take on boards other ideas to improve your own thoughts and ideas..Im just an ordinary guy who enjoys these docs etc but i wd love to see more about the dogon,zuni and the lambayeki ppl (excuse my spelling).. to expand my very limited knowledge

  • ordinaryLEE

    eEne78, ty very much for your post .i unerstood it very well and its been well put together for people of my ilk to understand..Great stuff,and i look fwd to reading further posts on other subjects on this site..respect my friend thankyou

  • ordinaryLEE

    here you.what a brain you've installed in yourself.Bright as a blackout and 3x as dim imo.. theres no need to abuse just because u dont understand or agree with something..You're not exactly windows 7 in the head m8 ,,,more like vista,totally full of cr*p..have a nice day 8-}

  • ordinaryLEE

    maybe a dogon or suchlike was a bit drunk after a ritual of some kind and bumped into a female neanderthal and as men know the drunker we are the prettier they get so some ancient rumpy pumpy may be the blame

  • Bellawouldliketoknow

    im writting a paper on "Black Athena" and i need help what side should i go with

  • billythekid122

    this show is fun and educational to watch . African history was lost . We have only 1800 slavery history only in America . what happen to the other half ? .

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_JNIWLD2N7KE6YWLCZBXZ5EC3RQ Yusiley S

    A lot of history within the continent of Africa had been lost. The only parts I truly know of are that of Egypt and Nubia. Also Republic of Mali where the city of Timbuktu resided. There is also Moroccan history but its brushed upon lightly in schools. That's about it. Only when the Spanish started to go into the continent around West Africa does the history of the whole continent started. It's a real shame too, so many wonderful tribal communities throughout this continent and yet only a few of its nations are explored in history, and only a few parts of that history are even discussed. *sighs* It frustrates me because I would love to expand my Inspiration (a software program to teach lessons) Africa unit plan and include an expanded view of its history.

    I also want to point out that many scholars need to get their heads out of their @$$es. Too many whom I've encountered in the university swear that the blacks within Ancient Greek and Rome were only slaves. ???HUH???? How do we know this? Especially in Athens. Of all places, not just in Egypt... in Athens, with its democratic society, would've accepted blacks as respectable citizens, merchants and traders. I wouldn't be surprised if some of these free blacks had slaves of their own... black and white slaves. Slavery at this time wasn't divided into race or color, but by ethnicity, rank, birthright, and if one was from a conquered nation. It's not like the modern concept of slavery which is still viewed as a skin color notion. We really could only assume or make assumptions, but lets not mistake that with truths... after all none of us lived at that time. For all I know my guess is as wrong as the so-called professors throughout all universities.

    I agree with original LEE full hearty. There ought to be more in-dept look into the history of the tribes within the continent of Africa. Like him I too believe that the cradle of life... and even civilization... started in these tribal communities, which for all we know were properly turn into city states that were far older than that of Mesopotamia. And yea Mesopotamia can be seen and such, but we can't also discredit or erase the idea of city states built with mud and animal skin in ancient African societies, which can be washed away and decomposed. Just an idea or thought to think about. I just don't believe that the concept of a civilization started in the desert in modern day Iraq when Homo Sapiens have been around for so many years.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_TGUUGTOU4U44AS3UHUN2KUM5M4 unknown

    It is true, if put ih the right place; egypt is black. The worh Egypt is selt in greek mean black. Why do not need a white racist tell me, about my ancestry is. The true egyptians is and will alway be the black peoples. Any one whose study the truth will find out that is true. I am black and pride.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_TGUUGTOU4U44AS3UHUN2KUM5M4 unknown

    Black men of American, wake up take pride who you are. Do not let any of white racist tell you about your history. Remember they stole this land from the indians and took us away from our true motherland. They also stole our gold and many vauls from the motherland.

  • brian stoll

    Egyptians were semites, Nubians were black

  • oracle2012

    We have found Cleopatra's sister who was found to be of African decent and we now know that ancient Egyptians were in fact African. We have to simply except these facts in history and evolve insteadt of continuosly insisting to hold on to notions that Africans played no part in civilization.

  • oracle2012

    And why is it only black men who need to wake up, how did black men get here through the wombs of black women so..I believe we were there too.

  • Jane Doe

    Wow, what an ignorant thing to say.

  • Eniki520

    so your using the bible as an explanation about ancient sumerian texts? and there is only one race of homo-sapien right now were all genetically one species, the difference is skin deep, what you imply is that color makes race which it doesnt(example there are chocolate labs and yellow labs they are one species).

  • Eniki520

    you know they didnt have the concept of nonfiction and fiction back then, art work and myths were not purely factual back then you cant treat them like a photograph or factually accurate historical document. myth is obviously the center point of those tablets and they should be treated as such. do you take the bible to be 100% factual as well?

  • Eniki520

    ahahahahahahahaha sounds believable

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_5KNNMR2MUNYZP4RDRTSVQFG4QU Tiffany Woods

    First and foremost, learn to spell.....second it is a white man who has come up with this theory so how is it that blacks are trying to give themselves a prouder past? And if you do your research you would know that blacks in fact do have a very rich and proud past and that much of it has been covered up by Europeans. Please learn your history truly before making anymore ignorant comments.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_7ABFNHMYR4KL7CVKH3YHEALEFM North

    Wow, instead of dealing with the merits of the film, people are more interested in discussing racism. Hasn't genetics proven that we're all related anyway, and Eve was black?

  • asheron25

    this is bull****, not because am racsist but because i wanted this doc to teach me the history behind this argument but intead it is just a rasicst argument. Also this is an essentially american argument as diffrent places have diffrent prejudices about anicent greek civilization, and i always thought it was self evident that all cicilizations are influnenced by other at their begining, except for the first cilization.

  • francuccio

    We haven't progressed much, have we?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Igor-Ignacio-de-Oliveira/100002277993279 Igor Ignacio de Oliveira

    Acctually it were the Portuguese, not the Spanish, that started the conquest of coastal Africa. These countries had an agreement in Tordesillas (1494) and decided that they would not settle colonies in each ones half of the world. Most of the Americas was in Spain's half and all of Africa was in Portugal's half.

    Only in 1580 the Spanish gained land in Africa, as both kingdoms were unified by the period of 1580 to 1640. The current lands of Spain in Africa (such as Ceuta and Melilla) are a result of this period.

  • http://www.facebook.com/brianestoll Brian Stoll

    this is THE stupidest documentary IN THE WORLD.. officially..

  • liridon_n1988

    And I always thought why greeks are so dark I got the answer on this documentary thanks even their culture is gypsy like.

  • english100

    the truth is coming out slowly, at the end of the day truth shall prevail. africans are indeed the founders of civilization, why we europeans try to deny them their place in history, we corrupt everything we touch.......we seem to fear african in every aspect but why? maybe we never want them to know what we stole from them, thus the need for racism, slavery, colonialism, etc.........

  • Aspirator

    This is stupid, half of this 'documentary' is sending out a "Boo whitey!" vibe.
    Did Dr. Jeffries really say: "Whiteness limitates you?", seriously?
    Put a white guy in a movie, saying "blackness limitates you" and see what happens.
    Who's kidding themselves by thinking any ancient city in that area was populated by purely by one race? Come on.
    And then, does it really matter how big a slice from the cake a specific race represented?

    I recieved no knowledge from this. None.

  • Pierre Froment

    I feel rather ambivalent about the debate this documentary is pushing. In my opinion a major focus of this debate has to deal with modern day concerns on race. Its fairly obvious that these modern ideologies inevitably shape how historians interpret the past. Bernal was justified in criticizing how Classical studies have neglected the significant influence of Egypt and Near Eastern cultures on Greece's development of both the Bronze Age and Hellenic period.

    Despite the merit of this, I cant help but feel that Bernal's conclusion has invited many authors to reassess the development of Egypt and Greece as a racial issue despite the anachronistic aspects of such a perspective. I am not entirely aware of how race and ethnicity was evaluated in Greece and Egypt in antiquity but it occurs to me that ethnicity is not the essential, unchanging category that it is assumed by some of the proponents of the Black Athena debate. The imposition of these modern interpretations of ethnic and racial identity feels ahistorical and I am somewhat skeptical about how this may increase our knowledge of Antiquity.

    I am ambivalent about this because there isn't really a clear yes or no answer to this issue. The scarce number of surviving records and the enormous span of time which Bernal draws his conclusions from are ambiguous enough to support both sides of this debate. However, I would not be surprised if the exact answer to this question fails to vindicate either side of this debate.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_VR4PMRVA6A7R3JFWY4E7R2O4AA minority report

    I don't know where some of these historians stand with regards to the essence of the "Black Athena" argument/book.
    One says we should not think about Greeks as "...pure Greek, pure Egyptians.." and "....who the Greeks were...". Both these quotes from those historians do not address the question - why did the Europeans think they are in EVERY respect descendants of the Greeks? Historically? Culturally? Biologically?

    I think many Afrocentric and M. Bernal is saying is that racist-aryan-European colonist-historians have taken the Greeks as their ancestors. And this is not true.
    Didn't the Ancient Greeks interacted with the Middle East? By doing so didn't they interchange ideas and knowledge? And what were the "real" Europeans doing at that time in history? They were still "hunter/gather" people roaming Europe as Gauls/Franks/Celts/etc...
    Just because the Europeans TOOK Greek ideas/knowledge (eg. democracy and architecture) does not mean that the modern Europeans - English, French, Germans et all, are a continuation of civilization that started from the ancient Greece. I think that's what the colonial Europeans had in mind because they could not trace any history beyond their Enlighten period of 1400/1600s.
    It's similar as saying, Japanese society that is so modern, civilized, free, democratic all the characteristics of the West does not mean Japan is and always has been a Western country. It has been interacting with China and Korean and is more like them than to see Japan only after the Meiji period when Japan became very West like.
    Europeans are still looking for their ancient history. It looks like they are on the Kurgan PIE theory now....
    I don't blame any culture to look for their past, but you cannot steal and falsify history to do it.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_VR4PMRVA6A7R3JFWY4E7R2O4AA minority report

    As I recall that when some Europeans arrived in view of the Great Pyramids, these "explorers" - men having the mentality of "white man's burden" in their heads, could not imagine that it could have been built by black native Africans.
    (All I am saying is these guys were racists and am not saying who did build the pyramids).

  • micadarvesela

    There is a problem to your theory. If each civilization was influenced by other at their beginning, how did the first civilization begin? Did it sprout out of a plant, in a perfect natural way? Did some god created it? How to connect the dots from hominids living in caves to pyramids of Egipt, for instance?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/6W4P7HEEWMOCRKJR3WLKITBRMA JamesT

    Cliff notes version:

    A) greeks were white europeans and egyptians were black Africans but folks like to go on and on about what shade of black the egyptians were for a bunch of reasons.

    B) One dork is saying the white folks did gain a lot from the black folks

    C) Other dorks don’t think white folks gained from black folks as much as the one ugly nerdy guy said.

  • http://twitter.com/Atheists_R2_Bad Christian Imasda

    Personally I think the Jews and the Bible did everything, I do believe whiteness kinda limits, Adam and Eve were black :)

  • Giac Belli

    heard of stonehenge??

  • Giac Belli

    but that nose is a givaway...:)

    ever heard of "genetics"?

  • Giac Belli

    there is only one race...and it's Human.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ES5YFURR5VOTKTGHD4PIVYXPVI John

    Although I know we could never put it into practice, of course, I used to wish we had a huge super committee of trusted scholars, scientists, historians, linguists, etc., who could review all nonfiction books (and now docs) and make certain that they were based on fact and evidence before allowing them to be published. If there were such a committee, then Black Athena would have never made it into publication. Martin Bernal was not happy with the factual, evidence based history so he just made up a false history that was more pleasing to him -- and more pleasing to those who might spend their money on his revisionist books. It is totally unreasonable, and completely unsupportable, to believe the entire legacy of Greek civilization did not contain anything that the Greeks themselves contributed. It is also inaccurate to assume that Egyptians were all black -- they weren't. Even back then there was a great deal of racial diversity in Egypt. It is plausible that the Greeks learned from the Egyptians just as it is equally plausible that the Egyptians learned from the Greeks. A good book to read is "Not Out of Africa: How Afrocentrism Became an Excuse to Teach Myth as History" by Mary Lefkowitz. Lefkowitz demonstrates that the foundations of Bernal's claims are shaky at best, and hilarious, misguided wishful thinking at worst. Bernal's claims, when put under the same academic scrutiny that other claims go through, simply do not stand up to the facts and evidence. And, unfortunately, Bernal uses alleged racism as an argument instead of a true debate of the facts.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ES5YFURR5VOTKTGHD4PIVYXPVI John

    A good book to read is "Not Out of Africa: How Afrocentrism Became an Excuse to Teach Myth as History" by Mary Lefkowitz. Lefkowitz demonstrates that the foundations of Bernal's claims are shaky at best, and hilarious, misguided wishful thinking at worst. Bernal's claims, when put under the same academic scrutiny that other claims go through, simply do not stand up to the facts and evidence. And, unfortunately, Bernal uses alleged racism as an argument instead of a genuine debate of the facts.

  • Kevin Harris

    1)i think egyptians (Nesu) kings painted them shelves black to show they were of the orignal seed (black).notice on almost every picture with working day to day average people of ancient egyptians are a reddish brown color still of negroid genes but not the seed of the royal house or (pharoah) wich is the the darker hue of the negroid race

  • Eniki520

    yes i have heard of genetics and nose size has nothing to do with being white. ever heard of Kennewick man? he had a big nose too but wasnt white. and yes i know genetically there is no such thing as race.

  • Eniki520

    if everyone originally comes from africa and africa is the most genetically diverse place on earth then why would it be so shocking that ancient Africans could have red hair? Wouldnt it make sense that traits like red hair could have originated in Africa? red hair doesn make him white man. some Australian Aborigines have redish hair and are far from white.

  • Eniki520

    Ancient Mycenaean art work (c. 1900 BC – c. 1100 BC) that predates the "Dorian invasion" and classical Greece, don't depict themselves as black. and the Minoans(27th century BC to the 15th century BC.) used two different colors for the sexes, a darker skin color for men and painted women as white. Ancient art is very symbolic and should not be treated as photographic evidence of ancient life.

  • CharlotteKey

    There was a Spanish geneticist who came out of nowhere claiming that Greeks had "black" DNA. Since then, that has been proven a fabrication. I wonder how it ever got accepted--we have countless representations of Greeks in ancient times, their sculpture and portraits on pottery, and they are quintessentially Caucasoid in phenotype--nothing "sub-Saharan" African at all. And then there is nothing in Greek literature or philosphy, or their scientific theories, the say "Black African." Black Africans have never distinguished themselves in these endeavors, ever. Not now with all advantages given to them, not ever. So why try and force a connection? While the claims of other Europeans are questionable, there is at least a phenotypical & genetic relation, and an exchange of cultures--Greeks were the eastern half of the Roman empire after Rome fell. So give it up already, on the Greeks, Afro-Centrists. I don't know exactly who the anceint Greeks were, but I know damn well who they weren't -- black Africans. btw, Dr. Mary Lefkowitz (think that's how its spelled) demolished that non-sense.
    in any case, the Europeans created virtually all of the modern world, not excluding the computers you are looking at. No European need feel inferior due to lack of accomplishments. Which is why they keep having to ram the "genocide" thing. Look--the modern achivements of white civilization has allowed MILLIONS of blacks and browns to grown up who would never have survived. That is why their populations have burgeoned in the 20th century. The white man is responsible for this prodigious growth of black and brown numbers. Blacks living now in America are infinitely better off than most people have ever been all through history. That's what makes you hate whites. You depend on them.

  • Jonathan Peterson

    I don't believe they would have been called "black Africans" but there would another word for black, try looking up kemit or the kingdom of kush ...

  • kompikos

    @CharlotteKey, just to give a brief answer to your quote "I don't know exactly who the anceint Greeks were". The people we call today "ancient Greeks" are called as "Greeks" for the exact same reason the modern Greeks are called this way. It's because of the alphabet they used and the language they spoke, same as the modern Greek alphabet and a very close version of the modern Greek language. It's not a DNA issue at all. Ancient Greeks were of Mycenaean and Dorean origin, a tribe of people that moved to the Greek mainland from the north some centuries before "classical Athens" and the Golden Age of Greek civilization. The Doreans invented what is today called the Greek alphabet and the language has been consistently used and protected by the people who lived in the Greek mainland for more than 5000 years till this day.

    Modern Greeks are people of Greco-Roman (Byzantine) origin, who themselves where a mix of Romans and Hellenistic Greeks. Hellenistic Greeks, the Greeks that lived after the era of Alexander the Great, where of ancient Greek origin. The Byzantine Empire (also known to western contemporaries as "Empire of the Greeks" - "Imperium Graecorum") was the eastern part of the Roman Empire after the fall of Rome, as you also pointed out. It continued to exist centuries after the fall of Rome and integrated Christianity as it's main religion. It fell in 1453 after being defeated by the Ottomans (Turks). The new Ottoman Empire ruled for 400 years after that and the Greek part of the empire was liberated in 1821 and the modern state of Greece as a nation in unity was established.

    Modern Greek culture and modern Greeks in general, are influenced in a massive percentage by the Greco-Roman culture of the Byzantine Empire. The cross on the Greek flag is the exact cross of the Imperial flag (in white) and the double-headed eagle on the flag of the Greek Orthodox Church and the Greek Army is the Emperial Coat of Arms. Most modern Greek traditions are traditions that go back to that era, it's in the legal system (also called Roman Law), it's in the modern Greek names, the architecture of churches etc. Modern Greeks where also called "Romioi" until recently (effectively meaning "Romans") as a local idiom.

    Finally to conclude my point, if today you put side by side Southern Italians and Greeks, you cannot make them apart unless they open their mouths and speak. The Greeks will speak modern Greek and the Italians will speak modern Latin (Italian). The deference between Greeks and Southern Italians is that the Greeks are of different cultural origin than Southern Italians because of deferent east and west cultural heritages of the Roman Empire. The culture of the Roman Empire as a whole was massively influenced by the ancient Greeks and after the fall of Rome, the eastern part that remained (Byzantines) added to that culture new elements of christian origin BUT always preserved and spoke the Greek language until today. Later (after the fall of the Byzantine Empire) some elements of Ottoman origin where also accumulated but since the Greek Independance they have been deccending gradualy and deliberately. And so you have modern Greece. :)

  • robertjamesselby

    what about the smurfs

  • urban deadite

    "the Europeans created virtually all of the modern world, not excluding the computers you are looking at"
    Industrial revolution started in Britain yes the true start of the Modern age and SOME parts of that spread but that was not possible without all the ideas that came from the East etc previously ie the compass, printing, paper making, gunpowder, the number 0 etc
    Saying Europeans created 'virtually' all of the modern world comment is ignorant of History and as we still live in the Modern world it is inaccurate as technology etc is not a static thing and ideas are and have been diffused throughout the World for as long as Humans have existed as a constant effect.

    Anyway this program is already out of date we know this from Genetics and the truth of where we ALL came from is a lot stranger than an Afro-centric viewpoint and is constantly changing and we do know as FACT that a lot of peoples in the Mediterranean mixed and had done since before the Stone Age of ALL Colours, technically there was no such or is there a people called 'Africans' , Africa is a CONTINENT made up of dozens and dozens of Gentetically and Culturally diverse 'African' (inhabitant of the Land mass called Africa) peoples who ALL LOOK DIFFERENT, an Aka looks very different to a Bantu who looks different from a San or Zulu or Libyan or Somali or Nubian or Egyption or Tureag etc etc etc.

    As far as we know Homo Sapiens came out of the African CONTINENT, modern African peoples have also Evolved like everywhere else in the World so they are NOT the same people as OUR ANCESTORS.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Brad-Whodat-Tomlinson/1812724587 Brad Whodat Tomlinson

    Bernal is either a buffoon for his shoddy history or a genius for cashing in on what has been an obvious and desperate yearning among blacks to have their self-esteem shielded from the relative dearth of their intellectual achievement.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Brad-Whodat-Tomlinson/1812724587 Brad Whodat Tomlinson

    Egyptians excelled as artisans. They were poor scientists. They weren't black though. Sub-Saharan blacks were backward even then.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Brad-Whodat-Tomlinson/1812724587 Brad Whodat Tomlinson

    And whatever genes that East African woman had were inherited from the first mammal: a tiny shrew-like creature. I feel no more hesitation in saying that all humans are more intellectually advanced than that creature than I do in saying that whites and Asians are more intellectually advanced than blacks. Merely telling us that one's ancestry can be traced to Being X doesn't preclude us from saying that one has evolved in ways that result is one being superior to Being X with respect to some innate ability. Humans may very well have first emerged in Africa but they eventually spread out and sufficient geographic isolation resulted in varying selective pressures which selected for traits in non-uniform ways.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/H74QNKLY2ZPJ4OTMZSTH4LRPYE Dac

    Everyone knows that Phillip the II was the greatest enemy and killer of the greeks. and he was Macedonian! What the greeks hated and was forbidden in greece was the name Macedonia and Macedonians to be spoken! So who gives you permission to say Macedonia is greek? why dont you say something about the division of Macedonia in 1913 when greece took a big part of southern Macedonia(Aegean part) because of the end of ottoman empire and the so-called liberation of the Macedonians. DNA shows that the direct ancestors of Alexander the Great live and are from present Macedonia. on the other hand,your DNA shows African origin.

  • kompikos

    DNA cannot show those ridiculous claims because Macedonians were not Slavs. Ok? You on the other hand are Slavic tribes that inhabited the area in the middle-ages. Macedonians were neither Greeks nor Slavs to answer to your claims. They were a tribe that embraced the Greek language and culture and so they became Hellenistic. This means that DNA has nothing to do with it. They considered themselves Greeks and the campaign in Asia of Alexander was in the name of Hellas (Greece) so what gives you the right to challenge well documented facts of history?? The Greek DNA shows African origin? WTF? Modern Greeks are of Byzantine origin (Greco-Roman if you please). Greco-Romans where mix of Romans and Hellenistic Greeks. Hellenistic Greeks where mix of Ancient Greeks, Ioanian Greeks, Macedonians and other Balkan inhabitants. What on earth don't you understand! What DNA??? If you trace your DNA 6 generations back you cannot find o clue of it's original origin and you are talking about 2000 years ago? Is that what you earn in your schools? At least Greeks have the courage to say that the ancient Greek heritage is a HERITAGE not a DNA continuity. You Slavs on the other hand insist that you are direct ly linked to ancient Macedonians....it is absolutely ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

  • DreadMighty

    As one descended from African Blacks in Egypt and having been to Egypt and its heritage sites, it seems more likely that the shielding is in need more-so for yourself. Egypt aside, there was Punt, Zimbabwe, Askum, Kush, the Nok, Wolof & Ethiopian civilizations. Now I dont follow every ideal Bernal proposes, but the dire need for many Europeans/Americans to feel "better" than Sub-saharan Blacks and the African diaspora in general is a telling specter of inferiority. As that the entire context of racism was to placate human emotions after determining that out of all ethnicities, West Africans were resistant enough to European disease, resilient enough in the humidity & heat, and noticeable enough to hunt down if they ran away-therefore more economically viable to enslave.
    Unlike the Irish who were better able to stay hidden after they changed their names from "Mc-something" to something more British. Unlike the British who were also very slippery when they ran off plantation. The reverse true in India, Arab lands and Sub-Saharan Africa where Germanic slaves were all the rage- second only to Mediterranean/Iberian whites, who dealt better in the sun and against African disease.

  • rubicx

    North Africa, the Middle East and Europe share one thing -- the Mediterranean. There were, of course, influences among and between those regions, mostly because of trade across the Mediterranean, but this does not mean that ancient Greeks were black Africans. That is just a ridiculous proposition. White history has many lies, but when we add black lies to history, then all we get is more lies. Let's clean up the lies across the board instead of telling lies for the sake of national pride, racial pride or civics.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Inamdi-Okoruwe/613724000 Inamdi Okoruwe

    nubians were and aksumites are sub sahran, and they had advanced empries back then, so stop chating crap

  • deltaforce1943

    Wondering why people continue to regard Egypt as if it isn't a part of Africa.Egypt is in Africa so of course Egyptians, ancient or other wise, are African!!!!!

  • deltaforce1943

    lol first and foremost, learn to spell. secondly how is it blacks who are giving themselves a prouder past if blacks aren't even the creators of this documentary....lol you are truly a douche....oh and by the way it was blacks who created a good 60% of the everyday products we use today so blacks do in fact have a very proud past. Please go and learn your history before you make dumb ass comments.

  • madscirat

    Five minutes in, still waiting for evidence... "Ur racist if u don't agree." Ten minutes in, still waiting for evidence... "Ur antisemite if u don't agree." Fifteen minutes in, still waiting for evidence... "Ur a nazi if u don't agree." Twenty minutes in, still waiting for evidence... Bunch of random black tourists interviewed say its true.... Seems Legit.

    Can not wait for babyboomers to die off so we can all go back to looking for the facts rather than the facts which make us feel the most liberal and politically correct.

    I mean seriously, who the heck cares what skin color the founders of civilization were apart from racists and babyboomers who are desperately frightened of looking like racists. Due to the homogeneity of the human genome, lots of the Greeks were probably more genetically similar to Africans than other Greeks anyway.

  • http://www.facebook.com/matt.paintthetownbrown Matt PaintthetownBrown

    Ahhhh...really?
    Have a look at the mathematics and astronomy behind the Pyramids, or for that matter all Egyptian ceremonial complexes. As for Sub-Saharan Blacks, you might want to investigate Thomas G Brophy's amazing work on the Nabta Playa complex.

    This demonstrates quite clearly the sheer brilliance of the Sub-Saharan and central African peoples preceding Old Kingdom Egypt. The astronomy and mathematics is quite astounding, the link with the foundation of pre-Dynastic Egypt has been demonstrated by Brophy, Bauval and Shilde.

  • http://www.facebook.com/matt.paintthetownbrown Matt PaintthetownBrown

    Bernal demolished her response in 'Black Athena Writes back' (2001). He soundly defended his claims and deconstructed the ad hominem nonsense put forward by Lefkowitz and her 'allies'.

  • ?????????? ????????

    I Believe that aegians civilizations were in contact. But we can't say that Greek civilization it's not great and authentic. It had influences, but it's still here! Were are the Phoenician and Egyptians? Even their names are greeks!

  • ?????????? ????????

    The only truth about Greeks is that they are a nation with a great history. All ancient sources from Greece, Egypt, Arabia, India etc. are saying the same about Greeks and Greeks are Macedonians, Dorians, Aeolians, Ionians, Achaeans, Danaoi etc. They are the same nation! They have different names cause of the greatest hero of their area. so Makendos, Ion, Doros, Danaos, Achaeos etc. It's not to difficult to understant and accept it, because when we say that in Papua New Guinea there are ancient nations with common origin, nobody has a different opinion! Why? Why everybody claims up for Greece? We are just humans with a different way of life, Just humans!! Our civilization is great? Maybe it is! But other nations had their civ's! Go and ask history from them! Or Better create your own if you don't have! Our history is not for sale! It belongs to us! We are not an example that you must follow, Follow us if you want, but our way of life is one of many differents ways to living. We are just the Greeks! And you, you ,you etc. you are Belgian, German, American etc. what's your problem? For God's sake! Stop hating and raping Greece!

  • Proteus_Delta

    But the Greeks did make for better scientist. Also i think that the culture & the way the Egyptians & other authoritan civilizations ran their nations really sucked!

  • Proteus_Delta

    I still prefer Greek & Roman civilization over anyting else. Super Science should be the the only thing propelling our civilization further. It really is to bad that Greece & Rome was beaten down by brainless mutants(also because of themselves) . If Greece & Rome would have kept on going strong, then the world be would be in a much better state.

  • Proteus_Delta

    Also do not forget that we also evolved out of Asia. To say that we evolved from people in Africa is just ridiculous. All the underwater cities being found of the coast of Thailand, China & Japan points to an older civilization.Their is a reason why we are given the term Caucasian. Rememmber the landbridge connecting Siberia to Alaska. How the Native Americans resembled Asians and as did the people all the way down to the Lowest tip of South America Besides the Babylonians & Summer was before Egypt. One more thing, all authoritarian cultures are noting but garbage. Super science & philosophy combined with democratic idealism is the way to go. The ancient Greeks to these philosophies further than those authoritarians ever could!

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/IUDDTTH42KXSONU22HV77Z2VPY RUDY

    Everything about Europe is fake, and in particular the concept of "whiteness," works great for people who love falsehood though.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/IUDDTTH42KXSONU22HV77Z2VPY RUDY

    The American is such an intense loser, that he will equate himself with almost any fabrication that involves honor, and glory, since he, lacks them both, absolutely. Thus, they deem themselves Romans, Greeks, Vikings, and any other mythological narrative they can concoct to build up their effeminate , and cowardly selves. The history of the U.S. is a history of lies, murder, and whores, nothing less. The solution for the wana be white (Whatever that is), take more steroids. Hitler would have loved steroids, but even that would not have helped his "supermen" from getting their behinds left in the Olympic dust, by the true superman: "Jesse Owens. The end of the white age of lies is speedily upon us. ISAIAH 66:24

  • Epochone2004

    Rudy, do you have such hatred when you first wake up, or does it come on gradually during your day? You are sipping poison and waiting for whitey to die.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IL3K3KZ7O6MWIM7NZ7KL7NK2GA Jesterly

    Are you kidding? You're joking, right? Why don't you go look up the etymology for the word CAUCASIAN, and CAUCASOID and CAUCASUS MOUNTAINS. Just because they were near Asian, doesn't mean yo came from Asians. And there was a time where all land was connected, so come again, sweetie.

  • http://unholy.fi/ Jarkko Toivonen

    prove it

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_E3KEDYRRCB3HFMELVMVSCZ7S54 Dragonheartdoxies

    Too late 8-4, they already have. Not only that but they now claim, that the Celts, Picts, Anglo-Saxons, Normans, Franks, Danes, Vikings, Gauls were Black. That William The Conqueror was Black, Charlemagne was Black, all of the European royalty & nobility were Black.

  • Devon Griffiths

    Rome was not "beaten down by brainless mutants" ... the barbarians were hardly brainless, and they only seized an opportunity as the empire began to disintegrate. They didn't cause its downfall. Yes they took advantage of weakness - but this is also what lay behind Rome's success in previous eras.

    After the Crisis of the Third Century, long distance trade broke down. At this point, the only adaptation was to decentralize and focus on very local power and economy rather than continental power and trade. The barbarians were eminently well-suited to the new reality, and understood the new conditions, the Romans did not, and were unable to exercise power at a local, decentralized level. In the absence of centralized power they could not function. The only adaptation they could have made - even without the barbarians - was to decentralize and cease to be Rome, and become a collection of feudal states. This was attempted (we call it the Crisis of the Third Century), but did not succeed, and so nature and history imposed the solution on Europe about a century and a half later.

  • http://www.facebook.com/nosheol.tarsus Nosheol Tarsus

    The only thing the seed of Cain s good for is murder, stealing, and lies.

  • http://www.facebook.com/nosheol.tarsus Nosheol Tarsus

    The American is such an intense loser, that he will equate himself with almost any fabrication that involves honor, and glory, since he, lacks them both, absolutely. Thus, they deem themselves Romans, Greeks, Vikings, and any other mythological narrative they can concoct to build up their effeminate , and cowardly selves. The history of the U.S. is a history of lies, murder, and whores, nothing less. The solution for the wana be white (Whatever that is), take more steroids. Hitler would have loved steroids, but even that would not have helped his "supermen" from getting their behinds left in the Olympic dust, by the true superman: "Jesse Owens. The end of the white age of lies is speedily upon us. ISAIAH 66:24

  • http://www.facebook.com/nosheol.tarsus Nosheol Tarsus

    There is no such thing as "white," but...the baby boomers will soon be visiting their maker. I hope they repent of all their corruption early. Europe belongs to Satan, and will be pulverized by the most high.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Brad-Whodat-Tomlinson/1812724587 Brad Whodat Tomlinson

    A self-esteem project disguised as history. The dearth of black intellectual achievement relative to other races obviously hurts black pride. Let's lie about history to rectify the situation shall we?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Brad-Whodat-Tomlinson/1812724587 Brad Whodat Tomlinson

    Of course, such a superman would have achieve an IQ above 100. I doubt Jesse Owens qualifies. We certainly know the black race on average does not. And that's the problem. Blacks look at their sad history and can't accept that it's their own inferior, innate intelligence that is responsible for their being the poorest, least literate race on earth. They can't do any better and they know it so they are only left to lash out at "oppressors" to alleviate their logically-acquired low self-esteem. Hence, billions of aid flow from European nations into sub-Saharan nations and no aid flows the other way. Why? Europeans can support themselves but blacks need help. They can't do it themselves.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Brad-Whodat-Tomlinson/1812724587 Brad Whodat Tomlinson

    Ancient Egyptians were great craftsmen. They were not great scientists. At any rate, ancient Egyptians were no more black than modern Egyptians so watching blacks latch on to their achievements to bolster their self-esteem is quite humorous.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Brad-Whodat-Tomlinson/1812724587 Brad Whodat Tomlinson

    There is nothing astonishing about ancient sub-Saharan mathematics. It never rose beyond arithmetic. There has never been a single document from this time and place to show otherwise. Their intellectual achievement was nothing to be admired. Hell, no sub-Saharan civilization ever got as far as having their own written language!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Brad-Whodat-Tomlinson/1812724587 Brad Whodat Tomlinson

    Due to the homogeneity of the human genome, lots of the Greeks were probably more genetically similar to Africans than other Greeks anyway."

    This is patently false. It's been shown that such results are only the result of looking at a small number of genetic loci.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Brad-Whodat-Tomlinson/1812724587 Brad Whodat Tomlinson

    Advanced by black standards which is to say not advanced at all.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tassimo-Buddz/100003698637943 Tassimo Buddz

    oh so everyone else can be black, asian, latino, indian etc. but white hell no. you sound like a nazi undergoing the total brainwash into thinking Jews aren't people. White is a race whether you like it or not RACIST!

  • Lampy Pampy

    The teachings of the Egyptian Mysteries reached other lands centuries before it reached
    Athens.

  • NOSHEOL TARSUS

    The story of Europe is a huge work of fiction, much like U.S. His-story. The only thing Europeans are good for, is lying, cheating, and murder, on an epic scale, the tarres of scripture.

  • morpheus01001

    Yeah, but you might want to look east, slavery is still in Sudan and other parts of eastern Africa.

  • illuminatilizardperson

    Wow; the cultural and economic center of the world at that time, attracted people from other regions and ethnic groups, and was thus not totally of one race-imagine that. I'm assuming that you mean Cleopatra's sister's remains were DNA tested? Cool. You might be interested in knowing that many other remains have been tested as well, including King Tut. The result: the vast majority of ancient Egyptians looked like modern day Egyptians; imagine that.

  • J_Templar

    Egyptians started much fabulous knowledge that was brought forth I believe through Hermetic philosophy to the Greek world where it combined with Greek's own fine thought. Sumerians contributed much of it too.
    But Egyptians are different from Nubians and very different from the Bantus who went to America. Each group has its own strengths and weaknesses and you should not hate others since you then only deserve the same back on you. Bantus are now taking misplaced revenge on whites. Whites invented the idea of slavery being wrong, but it still exists in black Africa and Araby, and it was the Blacks and Arabs who captured and sold black slaves to whites. Whites never captured any, and Moslems from North Africa took many Europeans into slavery during the 600s-1700s when the Saracens were raiding Europe.

  • ODDOWL

    The 19th century Europocentrics gave Greek names to African stuff, not the African... The Kamitic people of the Nile Valley called their country Kamet (Old Kam) The name Egypt is a Greek mispronunciation of the Kamitic word He-Ka-Ptah... Many of You Europeans are ignoramuses...

  • ODDOWL

    All the evidences for civilization, culture, the arts and the sciences lies in Africa, Afro-Asia and Afro-Europe, not Caucasoid Europe.... When African Negroes were rearing pyramids and standing 100 feet long, 1100 tons Obelisks on end, you Europeans were still Uncivilized, uncultured, living in caves, wearing animal skins and engaging in incestuous sex...

  • ODDOWL

    Libyan Negroes founded the first colonies in Greece, Crete and other Cycladic Islands as early as 7000 BCE.. The most famous was on the Island of Thera which was destroyed by a massive volcanic eruption in 1626 BCE... There are pictures and everything... Read Black Athena...

  • ODDOWL

    The 12 tribes of the Germans descended from the Neanderthals with some later admixture of Grimaldi Negro, Cro-Magnon blood... The classical Aryan Europocentric model of history is fake, phony, fraud and fabricated...

  • Rollaroli

    "There are pictures and everything"???? Can you be more specific? Read The Hunger Games. It's a better book.

  • Daren Olsin

    If you truly believe that, then how do you account for the tables turning so dramatically.
    If the black man was so advanced and intelligent, how have they regressed to ignorance and stupidity?
    Or are you writing this from your enlightened Somalian, Zimbabwean, Sudanese, (insert African basket case of choice) utopia?

  • Macedonian1

    What the greeks fail to acknowledge is that there is no such thing as a slavic ethnicity. The term 'slav' is a linguistic term, just as Latin is. You cannot be a slav by blood. There is no one on Earth who is an ethnic slav. If their dubious claim were true, that would mean that all these 'slavs' of Europe would be related, and they would basically own Europe. The Macedonians' language belongs to the slavic family of languages, and their ethnicity has always been and always will be Macedonian.

    The truth is that a 'greek' nation never existed prior to the 1820's. They are nowhere to be found in historical records prior to this time. The language that they use today is based on a common language used for trade amongst other things, that language being Koine. This language had to be resurrected back in the days of forming a new nation (see Fallmerayer). There was a huge possibility that the official language of this new nation would be Albanian, as Athens back then was nothing more than an Albanian village. If you do some research you will find that many of the 'greek heroes' did not communicate in 'greek', but Albanian.

    Their history is fabricated at the expense of other peoples, namely the Macedonians, Vlachs, Albanians, Turks. These are the real ethnicities that make up the population of today's 'pure greeks'. If you dig under the surface, you will find a 'pure greek' doesn't exist and never has. There were no such people prior to the 1820's.

  • Lee Mun Lim

    Excatly!

  • Taimoor Khan

    Why are still Negros living in huts? Where are modern equivalent of "Pyramids"? Egypt was not negroid, but a Med Civilization. Ancient Egyptians depicted themselves different from black negroids in their art. Check their art.

  • Taimoor Khan

    And Blacks descent from Homo Habbilies and Erectus. So?

  • Taimoor Khan

    Are you sarcastic?

  • Taimoor Khan

    South African whites are African too, now. So? The issue is, were ancient Egyptians blacks as we define the term now? No.

  • Orophin

    I can't help feeling nihilistic at the incredulous nature of simplistic self-worth rhetoric that fuels pathetic ego-centric agendas and perpetuates the all too human condition of tribalism. I see the cultural and social dimensions of communities/civilisations that throughout eons of conformity and bondage to tradition, superstition, myth and dogma - occasionally manifest brief periods of enlightenment. The birth of a genius or two who bring forth ideas and concepts which profoundly alters the neural schematics that we call intelligence and cognition. Just like the random nature of the universe, such avitars are not confined to one race, time or place, but seem like devine gifts that steer humanity on it's evolutionary development. This folks, is the point - whoever these guys are - they are not YOU! Elaborate - it's not your skin colour, it's not your homeland, it's a handful of inspired individuals that govern the destiny of our species as the catalysts of change. Get over yourselves, you are insignificant and despite your qualifications and proclaimed wisdom, nobody cares, they are too absorbed in their own fantasies. In summary, Greeks did this, Africans did that. blah blah blah, actually they didn't do f**k all, a dozen or so individuals made break throughs and I would hazard a guess, that such people would not indulge in the drivel portrayed in this discussion, they were too busy seeking answers!

  • Orophin

    Nosheol, you are a poster child for ignorance and demonstating the exact same duplicity for frabricated simplistic tribal imbecility that contributes to all cross cultural insecurities - that inevitably result in conflict. Nice - just another clown spewing envy and misbegotten pride in the face of reality. Your mind is a work of fiction whilst you use a technology that manifests from countless advances in practical application of physical science, I bet that you dig the cultural advances of art - music etc, whilst enjoying the relative freedom of democracy which empowers your ability to spew your diatribe without any concept of the sacrifices made to enable that possibilly? Child, every race, colour and creed has their heroes and villans, the reality is that most people just want to be happy, unfortunately your cultural and social conditioning have led to your delusional assumption of "them" the other - for which you can blame every injustice regardless of insurmountal evidence to the contrary. Be at peace liittle one, in the end you are insignificant and irrelevant - just another scared, insecure child lost in the matrix :)

  • Orophin

    WTF is a tarres? Why do I bother?

  • rare avis

    any new link?

  • learnfromme

    People always like to claim others achievements to fuel their own egos, lets get some things straight. Egyptians weren't black and never have been, they have always been a brown skinned mixed people who completely separated themselves from the black skinned nubians south of egypt, and in fact at various times made them their slaves. Greeks have always had macedonia as the northern provinve, even to this day, then a country above greece decides to also call themselves macedonia and thats where all the problems started. Alexander the great was born in Pela in greece, his father was phillip from middle greece (never has been disputed that it was always greek), so was his mother, ethnically he was a greek. secondly, macedonia was a state of greece like sparta, they were greek but did their own thing and were sightly autonomous, but always were greek. There is also evidence in pela that ancient greek was the language round the time of Alexander the great. thus he uses the language and his parents are from there, and he lives in greece, then its greek. Macedonia the country as we have it today has been invaded by the ottomon empire which then changed borders, and then yugoslavias demise changed borders also. Also, just as turkey is next to greece, greeks arent turks, just as macedonia (the country) is next to greece, they are not greeks either, they are slavic with a slavic ancestroy. we know this because thousands of years ago slavs were an ethnicity of people that didnt exist in that area (greece's empire spread over bulgaria and into turkey), the world has gotten much more diverse over time and new ethnicities of people have come about with different languages etc. Therefore it must be made clear that macedonia was a poor choice of naming and it has truly nothing to do with ancient greece, where the slavic language and culture was not involved because it didnt exist. This is a response to a commenter who simply has no concept of history and has some kind of bias opposition to facts that greece was once awesome and alexander doesnt know macedonians culture or language like he doesnt a serbian or croation.

  • southernsepia

    Anyone who has ever taken an entry level Egyptian studies class knows that the original dynasties of Egyptian Pharoahs are African/Black. There is no debate about it. Check out a text book at your local college.

  • ODDOWL

    @ learnfromme... The word Black identify a racial group... It doesn't mean that all African people have Black skin... First you stereotype all African people as being Jet Black and then you claim that brown skin Africans, tan skin Africans, red skin Africans, yellow skin Africans are not Africans... Then you claim that these Africans of different shades must be mixed with Europeans are Asians or something.... Your narrative is wrong... African people come in all shades of color from ebony Black to ivory White... @ learnfromme... I can't learn anything from you because you're ignorant... Read Black Athena, Read the work of Champollion who deciphered the African Hieroglyphs on the Rosetta stone... Apparently many White Americans have the same self hating, self loathing, psychological neurotic phobia that Black Christians have... You steadfastly refuse to read a book about Africa... Reading is fundamental to learning...

  • ODDOWL

    @ orophin... In ancient times, all the enlighten people, the creators were Black Africans or Black Afro-Asians or Black Afro-Europeans or pre-European, Black Afro-Americans... Read what the French Linguist Champollion said about Europeans non contributions to world civilization and culture... He gave all the credit to African Negroes...

  • ODDOWL

    African people started the institution of slavery as a civilizing influence... The Africans enslaved POWs instead of sacrificing them to the God of war... They had grown tired of killing people like all the people on the planet are tired of it today, except the European White people who apparently glorify war and murder...

  • ODDOWL

    @ Brad Whodat Tomlinson... You European's use of reverse psychology and subliminal subjectivity has grown tiresome... Stop attempting to scape goat and blame Africans for your failures... Stop attempting to pro-ject your non contributing shortcomings and non contributions to civilization and culture onto African creators of civilization, culture, the arts and the sciences... Europeans were civilized and acculturated by African Negroes and Europeans took that knowledge and enhanced and embellished it but you didn't create it... Your arrogant pride won't allow you to admit that... "If you're filled with pride, then you have no room for wisdom." (Ancient African Proverb)

  • ODDOWL

    @ Brad Whodat Tomlinson... Any human especially a European who attempt to measure intelligence through the use of a so-called "IQ" test will only succeed in exposing their own lack of rationality, logic and reason ie, intelligence... Hundreds of trillions of dollars of African wealth has flowed and still flow out of Africa into Europe and America... African creations and contributions are based on material evidences, circumstantial evidences, oral history and mythology and plausibility... These are the four categories of evidences required to demonstrate (prove) your theory... Hey Brad, where is your evidences ??? This racist, Aryan Europocentric model of history is fake, phony, fraud and fabricated... Not one thread of evidence exist to support the Aryan Europocentric model... Brad, give it up, you're embarrassing yourself... Martin Bernal, the Author of Black Athena has exposed the European version of history to be nothing more than child like, "feel good" romanticism...

  • ODDOWL

    @ Proteus_Delta... You're a Europocentric ignoramus... Everything evolved or were created in Africa, by Africans, including your ancestors... Proteus, you're just a de-melaninated Negroid...

  • Vasso

    Guys, we may say a lot of things out of reality, but the truth is only one! We Greeks wrote about everything! Greeks are from the beginning of time white! We have texts, we have draws, we have sculptures! There is no doupt about it! We can't change the facts!

    But, why the skin colour is important? You know smt? It's not! Every nation has their colour, their language, their "everything"!
    We talk a lot about Greeks because we all know what they have done! The art, science, philosophy are more-less everything that human ever ctreated and every single one of them created in Greece thousand years ago.
    Everyone on this planet knows that and it's a lie to tell smt else! This is human history!
    Do this, an expiriment! try to say smt in your language about science or ideas, without using any greek word! You just can't! Try to talk about maths! Try talk about ideas! Try smt about athletism. Try talk about art, about politics, about life, about death! YOU JUST CAN'T!

    So, stop lying to yourselves, just see the facts, see the truth!
    Come a visit to Greece, go to Parthenon, go to any place in Greece. See the sky, see the earth, try to be Greek for a while. It's hard, I know, to understant what means to be a Greek. It's dificult even for us, the Greeks, some times to be Greeks!
    Because our legacy is to havy... We must to do some things! We have parents, grandfathers, and their grandfathers and their grandfathers etc. and everyone of them has expectations and you just can;t fail them! They gave their lives for us! They created a better world for us. Even Socrates, even Heracles, even my grandfather in the world war 2. All Greeks were heroes in the past. Can we be loosers?

    That;s why you can';t understand us and you can;t understant the history. For you, history is stuffs from the past written in some boring books, but for us, the dead are still alive, the past is now, the past is tomorrow and history is our people mind! All Greeks have that in their hearts. Because is who we are.

  • Vasso

    You may say a lot of lies, but you know the truth my friend!
    We Greeks are here today as we were here thousand years ago. Nothing changed! All the nations you have mentioned they are just people mooving around to steal another's nation land. Your "Macedonia" is a stolen land, as M.Asia is stolen by the Turks, an N. Hepirus is stolen by the Albanias etc.
    And I have the history on my side! I'm from Thessaly, the land of Achilles, Asclepius, Mahaon, Podaleirius, Thetis etc. and I still talking Greek and I read Homer from the prototype ancient text, because I'm Greek and this is my language! My parents talk in greek, my grandfathers did it and their grandfathers and their grandfather etc. And by going back we will found Alexander and Achilles and Heracles and Theseus and Socrates etc. to talk greek and to be Greeks!

    So what's your point? You are saying "there is no Greek nation" and "Falmerayer told so"!

    So what? Who are you and who is this falmerayer guy? What you and he knows about history, about nations, about truth?

    So don;t fight it my friend! Accept the truth and you will be happier!

    In greek, truth means a lot of things. one parameter of the meaning of this word is this: Alithia is the greek word about truth. A-lithia and it means "the one who can;t hide itself"

    So, stop trying to hide smt that cannot be hidden!

    It's hard to actually not to have any history like slavs or turks or albanias. Open some book and you will see that there is no mention to any of this nation in any language in any era! They are not exist! They were living in mountains like savages eating uncooked meat! They have no scripts, no art, no thinkers, pretty much they have nothing! They use the alphabet now, because we gave it to them and we teached them how to use. So, that's all I'm saying. Everybody who have a working mind will agree with me and accept the truth.

  • ODDOWL

    @ vasso... The Greatest Greek historian was Herodotus... Herodotus wrote in his book "Histories book-2" after visiting Egypt in 450 BCE that all of Greek culture were transmitted into Greece (Hellas) by African colonists who civilized the Greeks, built the first cities there, built dams, polders, dug canals, created water storage lakes and taught the Greeks how to farm... The Africans introduced the linear 2 alphabetic writing script and taught the Greeks how to read, write and count... Herodotus stated that all of Greek culture came from Africa in general and Egypt in particular... Vasso, the history you've been taught were written by 19th century racist, Aryan, Europocentric, white supremacists... Most of them were German arm chair scientists who claimed to be specialists who were expert in their fields... They provided no evidences to support their outrageous claims... Martin Bernal called what the German Aryans wrote the "fabrication of ancient Greece." You must study the history written by the ancient and classical Greeks... You should discard all of that German crap...

  • Vasso

    I don;t accept as history anything that german or other european "historian" wrotes about Greece. My history, the history of Greece is not about Aryans and Europeans, is all about Greeks. And Greeks leaves here in Greece and Mediterranian sea for so long that the evidence of their presence here are really old. A few millions years ago, as the anthropologist are saying. There are so many places in Greece wtih settlements or residences from 11.000.000 bc (Man of Petralona, Triglia etc) till our times. there are entire cities from 10.000 bc, 8000 bc, 7000 bc, 6000 bc etc and all of them have smt in common: the houses, the utensils, the art, even the graves are the same! We can see all those things to evolve but not to change till our days and only here, in modern Greece and in the territory of Ancient Greece all around Mediterranian sea.
    There are some scripts from 6000 bc and after and they proove that the people were also writing. In those scribds you can see alphabet elementes as M, N, O, K, A, Y, Δ as well as some linear symbols.
    We also have two complete Linear scribs that survived to our days and that were in use for thousand years from 7000 bc till 2000 bc, at least and we know that they were Greeks.

    Also, I want to tell you that, If you are not a member of a nation you can't understant it's history. We are growning up, and if you like, someone telling us that we are Greeks and we have done a lot of great things. What should we do? We believe him and we are living our lives "knowing" that we are the Greeks. If someone of us wants to search about our Greek identity will look after the ancient texts. He will read them. He wil read smt funny, smt unusual about the ancient people and he will say "we haven't change at all!" and he will lough. And that little smile, means a lot to a Greek, but you can;t feel it! No one who's not Greek can! Because this is our soul identity, not only the biological one.
    We are also looking for the art and we are seing sculptures and draws etc. and when I look at them I'm seing my face, my brother's, my sister's, my mother's face and we are telling to each other "oh, godess Ahtena or Apollo or an anomous guy looks like you in that statue". To be Greek means to be able to see parts of your indentity in every part of your life from the very past till today.

    Herodotus writes some things... The fact that he is Greek and actually a very talented writer doesn;t proove that he is right! Many writers as Plutarch and Aristophanes the Biotus accused him of being malevolent about Greeks and the things they achieved. And begond that, there are so many writers with different opinions than him, so why we should believe him or only him?

    So, and I agree with you, we must study the ancient texts and writers, if we want to have an opinion based on the facts and not based on any propaganda that germans or any other guy have ever created. Falmerayer is one of them, some "historians" of Hitler's side and many others who claims that they know the truth and lie in front of our faces about our history! There are no Aryans, no Indian-European, no Europeans, no Africans, no Asians, no Americans.

    There are only nations. Africa have many nation/tribes. there are not all the blacks the same thing!

    P.S. So name me the one tribe that create the known civilization.

  • ODDOWL

    @ Vasso... Martin Bernal who can write in hieroglyphics and he also speak Greek stated emphatically that about 70 % of all the words in the Greek language were transliterated from the Egyptian language... The Greek language for all intents and purpose is the Egyptian language... All of African philosophical doctrines and thoughts as they were written by the Egyptians are based on "principles of opposites", good and evil, night and day, wet and dry, male and female... All of the so-called Greek philosophical doctrines are based on principles of opposites... Aristotle's philosophy on actuality and potentiality is based on principles of opposites... Plato's philosophy on being and not being, good vs. evil are based on principles of opposites... Aeschylus who wrote the first Greek tragedy play learned his craft in Egypt... Solon, Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle and many other Greeks studied in Egypt for many years... Pythagoras studied geometry in Egypt for 21 years... Vasso, you must read "Stolen Legacy " written by Professor George G.M. James in 1954... The sub title of Prof. James book is called "Greek Philosophy is stolen Egyptian Philosophy." Africa is the birth place of civilization, culture, the arts and the sciences... Egypt disseminated African knowledge and wisdom to the four corners of the earth including the Olmec culture in Mexico... All Native American culture is derived from the Olmec culture in Mexico... Europocentric Greek history is feel good history... African history is documented history...

  • Vasso

    I have read many writers with your opinion, as I have read many others with mine opinion.

    It's necessary to live the reality as it is and not as they told us.

    You are talking about Egypt and then you are saying about African civilazation... This is wrong. I'm not talking about european civilazation, I'm talking about Greek civilazation, I'm talking about nations and not about continents. Name me some other African nations like the Egyptian. I agree that in Egypt there is a great civilazation and that is conected somehow with the Greek one. Many filosophers have gone to Egypt some to learn some others like Orpheus to teach. There is nothing wrong in this. But we are still have the Greek civilazation in life and also we can see it everywere. The architecture is all around the world the same and is the Greek one and not the Egyptian.
    The music scales are the Greek ones. The language of schience and art is the greek one and so on.

    In Greece we can see everywere around us the evidence of the primenal existance of our civilazation.
    We can see it trough the ancient buildings and I'm not talking about Parthenon, I'm talking about really old things! Thousands and thousand years ago. Huge buildings, the remain of them are still visible in the grount and some of them are still standing.

    We also have many other things such as bones etc that prooves there is human in Greece many million years ago. Foundings of Man of Petralona is 11.000.000 yearls old and they proove that he is standing in 2 feet and also he is using tools, have residence etc. As the human kind is evolving we can see the same tools etc, but they are from more usefull materials and better saped. As we continue our journey we are seeing how naval life begings and how the art came to life. We have so many images of that. Naval tools from hundred thousand years ago, draws, sculptures, even musical instruments! And in Greece we can see their evolution till our days.

    We have enormous number of foundings who support my theory about Greek civilazation. And my theory is that the Greek created a great unique and living civilazation till our days. The creations of it are the Greek language and the Greek aphabet, the schientific approach of nature, the filosophical thinking, the music as we know it, the theater, the litteracy etc.

    The hugest proove of all this is actually the Greek language itself! Because is the only language in the world that is created through the maths and for that reason is so accurate to name things as it is and not as we want them to be. The etymological analysis have prooved that the roots of any greek can be found in the alphabet. Every single element of the alphabet is actually and a root for a greek word or for a whole family of words. Also, every letter is actually a symbol for a sound that can produced by human voice. There are so many different sounds (at least in greek) as the letters of the alphabet.

    So, the Greek language is a primordial language that has no infuenced from any other language. The evidence of that you can see it only through
    the greek words!

    P.S.1 I know I'm not giving you enough informations about those things, but I 'm not so good with english and I can;t write anything I want as I have it in my mind.

    P.S.2 Thank you for the conversation and the infos you 've gave me.

  • ODDOWL

    @ brad who dat and Urban Deadite... You're right, Europeans built most of the modern world but they built it on a foundation that was created in Africa... They also built it on the backs of the African slave trade and the violent, oppressive colonization of Africa, Asia and the Americas... African Negroes created little things like all the languages spoken on the planet today, the articulation of speech, all the writing scripts ever used by humans, civilized behavior, metallurgy, architecture, mathematics, the arts and the sciences... The African Negroes calculated all three calendars that has used by all the people on the Earth... The stellar calendar, the lunar calendar and the solar calendar... A computer is useless without metal, language and "0" and "1"... Pharaoh Narmer Menes used his hydraulic engineering skills to build a massive dam and changed the course of the mighty Nile River in 3500 BCE... Pharaoh Menes drained the Delta swamp land, built canals, polders, water storage lakes and created the rich Delta soil that was the most productive farm land in the ancient world.. His name survive in Greece and Crete as Min, Minos and Minotaur ... An abundant of food freed up many Africans to do other things like contemplate philosophical doctrines about astronomy, the origin of the universe, the origin of the human race, the properties of the Atom, Religion, the creation of the all the Deities and the afterlife... Africans Negroes created the first musical instruments and then they created music... The harmony of the spheres ... Brad, you've been brainwashed and indoctrinated with the same bogus, fabricated, revisionist, Aryan Europocentric, feel good version of history written over the last 150 years by Germans that Fuhrer Adolf Hitler and the Nazis were indoctrinated with... The word Europe is derived from "Europa", the name of the African Canaanite princess who was kidnapped by Zeus and taken back to Hellas (Greece) where they were married and their off springs became the Greek people... Europa had two brothers name Kadmos and Kilix... Kadmos introduced the alphabetic writing script into Crete and from Crete into Greece and there are Islands named after both Kadmos and Kilix in the Aegean sea today... The classical Greeks described the Ethiopians (Burnt face people) as being faultless Men...

  • morrisseyowesmemoney .

    No such thing as magic

  • Truthfinder

    This documentary sucks! The majority interviewed is against the theory of Bernal, leading to this 'white supremacy' mindset. It is not objective at all. I don't understand why black people are underestimated. Even when the evidence is clear whites are still trying to come up with some other explanation (being mixed, not black skinned etc.) So sad.
    A hundred years from now white Americans will claim that they are the native people of the USA and evidence will be destroyed or misinterpreted.
    Only the Great Almighty will be able to end this foolishness.

  • efil4aggin

    I agree with you truth finder!! the main argument they put forth is that Bernal's work results in reverse racism as opposed to being factually sound. just a chronological view of history will logically prove who gave rise to civilization. if the first human beings were born in africa, how many years do you think it took from them to desire to migrate out of earth's garden of eden? in that time, what innovations do you think they had to make in order to survive and conquer nature enough to venture out to far off lands were the climate was far less tolerable for human subsistence?? the sryan model is a joke. their advocates can only try to cry that this scholarship is political. i bet none of them really read the book. while we are talking about teaching myth, they are still teaching the christopher columbus discovered america and that the europeans who invaded and conquered the americas and the native populations here were peaceful "colonists." they are a joke.

  • pascaline

    Hi,

    I COMPLETLY AGREE WITH Pr Bernal. The greeks civilization is fake and a myth. You also can read the french researcher who investigates and has done research on this subject. His conclusions are the same as Pr Bernal
    Dr NAS BOUTAMINNA
    Book: Le Rétablisme

  • alex

    Alexander's horse was Zastava too

  • Truth Finder

    The DNA says that the Greeks descended from Cush. Their (Greeks) y chromosome is E. We all know that Cushites are Black.

  • A.Alexander

    Mesopotamia`culture,Ancient Egypt,Phoenician cultures has nothing with "black" and "white" it has Semitic roots and these roots are denied (where possible) by Western hystorians.The cocky "Black Athena" evolved the false hopes of the black racists and prevented the seriouse attention of the Western humanitarian science strongly infected with supremacism.

  • vrilking

    You guys are all a bunch of i(iots. Many legends backed by numerous suppressed archeological finds worldwide speak of a race of giant humans that were the likely founders of civilization who, unfortunately for the black racists involved in this forum were caucasian according to "native american " read:(non-white people who encountered these giant caucasians) legends and lore. They don't fit into the evolutionary/politically correct model taught by the system today, wherein blacks are the original race,so this data and any DNA evidence it would provide simply can't be released. We wouldn't want people to know the real truth now would we?

  • jmikey

    Poor black people they don't believe in white mans science unless they think it will help their claims of superiority. Stop saying these and these and these people are black. Most of us including white people believe in the out of africa theory . so therefore it stands to reason African DNA is worldwide. What's important is here is following the improvements made in creating civilization outside of africa where it was obviously stagnating. The Chinese are arguably very different than Africans yet probably have African DNA. So are they black? They had one of the most advanced civilizations. We are all black inside. All have African DNA. But I don't think you're gonna confuse Jackie Chan with Lebron James.

  • Leigh Atkins

    Hmmm sounds like the Greeks re-wrote the history books for themselves - 'All Greeks were heroes in the past.'
    And I'm sorry but - 'white'? - olive-skinned at best.
    Why does this rubbish matter anyway? What is wrong with humanity??? This is so insane.
    And the music from this vid REALLY STINKS.
    I have a theory that the fact of the matter is that what scientists claim to be junk DNA may really just be 'book shelves' like empty spaces in a library waiting for the books to be placed back in there. The books are the genes which have been distributed throughout humanity (some have been lost to time) & due to isolation & selective breeding (most done by our own choices), we've lost more & more variety in our genome so that when we look around at other countries, we see genes which our ancestors have lost but have been retained by others in their countries.
    Scientists agree that we've ALL come from a 'Mitochondrial Eve' so we all supposedly came from the same original set of genes but due to isolation & time, we've lost many of the original genes. For example, black people might have skin colour books 12, 15, 18, 23 & 56 on their shelves whilst white people will have skin colour books 19, 22, 33 & 46. Then olive-skinned people might have skin colour books 12, 18, 22, 23 & 43 & Asians have a slightly different set again but we're all missing something that someone else has. And the original human beings had all skin colour books from 10 through to 63. This is a clumsily explained description but when they post a more complete analysis of human DNA, I truly believe that this is what they'll find.
    And it makes less difference than any of us want it to.

  • Bosco Ewot Ochoro Abbasmoi

    Nope, I wouldn't confuse Jackie Chan with Lebron James. However, I would definitely confused Jackie Chan with the San people of the Kalahari desert and South Africa because they both have Mongol features. San people aren't the only black people with Mongol features either, the Himba of Namibia also have Mongol features.
    @jmikey, I challenge you to do a research on San people of South Africa and Himba people of Namibia.