The Choice is Ours

2016 ,    »  -   474 Comments
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8.85
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Ratings: 8.85/10 from 251 users.
Storyline
The Choice is Ours

Throughout our history, humanity has set its sights on seemingly impossible goals, and found a way to realize those goals against all obstacles. This awe-inspiring potential is on full display in the opening moments of the new documentary The Choice is Ours, as retired NASA astronaut and professional astronomer Jeff Hoffman testifies to the glories of space travel.

With unparalleled willpower and ingenuity, we crafted the tools and technologies to explore what was once limited to the fabrications of Hollywood myth makers. But even from atmospheres beyond our own, the earthbound challenges we have yet to conquer remain in full view. Having manned multiple space flights over the course of many years, this reality became apparent to Professor Hoffman as he gazed upon the surfaces of our planet from his capsule. "There's a view of the impact that humans have had on our planet, and that can be pretty scary," he reflects.

The most pressing issues facing humankind today - from climate change to widespread crime to financial calamity to the rapidly depleting natural resources of our planet - take center stage in The Choice is Ours, but they're approached from a refreshingly unique perspective. This elegantly produced film promotes our capacity to invoke positive change in the world, and considers the behavioral and cultural shifts which must take place to make this possible.

The Choice is Ours is a production of The Venus Project, an organization devoted to uncovering innovative new approaches to problem solving. The organization's founder, 97-year old futurist Jacques Fresco, serves as the principal guide throughout the film's narrative. With convincing and articulate insight, Fresco argues for a reconsideration of what is possible in each of us, and by extension, the world at large. In examining whether our behaviors are determined by human nature, or by absorbing the environment which surrounds us, the film offers clues as to how we can begin to rebuild the reality of our planet from the ground up.

If defeating self-doubt and apathy were the rules which governed our species decades ago, would we have ever invented the technology to venture into outer space? By applying the same intensity of positive focus to global pursuits, we can improve the view of our planet, even from the stars.

474 Comments / User Reviews

  1. Rodrigo Rodrigues Pereira

    Comparing behaviour to mechanical systems is completely ridiculous.
    How can these people put so much thought into something and continue to make the same mistakes that put all mankind in the situation it is now. It's an inability to understand that the mechanization of reality is just an old failure of imagination. Time to think broader and accept that there are other aspects at stake here besides science.

  2. ~Oliver B Koslik Esq

    Most excellent doc!

    +1

  3. Sašo Luznar

    How can something be completely ridiculous if it has been proven time and time again? Have you studied behaviorism and did experiments, so that you can reflect on the failures? I would love to take a look at your studies or material, thank you :)

  4. badconduct

    More of this same-old conspiracy crap. They peel apart the system like an onion, and pull out the core. They say "This is the bad part" and toss away the rest.
    Debt is bad when you can't pay your loans. Corporations are bad when you feel guilty for buying their products. The party system is bad when the candidate you like didn't win.
    But they completely ignore how that next layer of the Onion impacts the core. Or the layer after that, and after that.
    We demand loans, we demand cars and cheap gasoline and energy, we demand a president that can talk gracefully in public.

    It's a system of self-entitlement, where people want more than they can have and will do anything to get it.

  5. Peter

    glad to see so many positive reviews for this doc, and others of its kind. I never post, but I feel compelled to today, if only in unity with other like minded individuals interested in preserving the beauty of life on this planet. Let us all be the change in the world we want to see.

  6. Tchistanovik

    Your good old American policy crap , invade , consume and destroy , a system that when it collapses as it has , drags the whole economic system with it , thats why we are trying to get rid of the dollar , since it is covered in other peoples blood including your own.
    We are not as dogmatic to our "dear leader" as americans are , the fanatic patriotism that we actually see when you say "demand a president that can talk gracefully in public." and the way that you say "We demand" , we ??? We who ??? Are you speaking for the rest of us , because some of us have cheap oil under our feet , who is being stolen by ... well those who demand it.
    The onion that you are peeling is others peoples lives and lands , and at the core of it , the American Imperialist system who is actually doing no good for the world.
    The onion as you so refer is us , the rest of the world , illegal drone strikes and torture prisons , this is how you peel the onion ?

  7. DigiWongaDude

    More fast food for the political left, and gently poking the inspirational creative brain hemisphere of the political right.

    Okay cutting to chase here (lots to say). I've been watching TVP since early 2007 - and I bit... hook, line and sinker: like many I felt that eureka moment was about to hit the masses.

    I heard mumbling rebuttals like "Utopian ideology" - "pessimists!" I'd retort.

    I'd find a crack here or there and paper over it, as would the many other people in our corner - "Sure it may not be perfect, but it's a better system than we have today", I'd defend.

    Here we are, eight years later, with a new two part release regurgitating the same old setup and the promise of that elusive upcoming next part which actually lays out the plan/final solution (Hence I called this fast food - full of promise, but no real substance or satisfaction). EIGHT YEARS AND I ARRIVED LATE! Am I saying they (TVP) have no plan? No. The plan is "raise money" (oh what a croc!) in order to: make films and create a platform for further hot air, I mean discussion. Don't believe me? Look it up, it was on their website since day one.

    I decided, 3-4 years ago, enough was enough. Fresco is a self proclaimed social engineer wannabee (like that's never gone tits-up). So should we BELIEVE this guy? Could he at the very least be a 'good' social engineer? Well let's have a look at JUST that...

    "Resource-based Economy" - Fresco tried (and failed) to trademark that phrase, but was rejected on grounds it was too generic a term.

    A crucial, initial step in a resource based economy is to measure the available resources (the central plan). Ludwig von Mises Institute scholar Robert P. Murphy has raised the "calculation problem" against a resource-based economy.

    He wants 'us' (whoever that is) "to own the world's resources", (by removing ownership? Irony anyone?).

    Asked why he has such difficulty actualizing his many ideas, Fresco responded, "Because I can't get to anybody." Oh but he's trying (pun intended).

    Fresco's delightful speeches and word play come no better than "Man can not think or reason" - look it up on Youtube (7 minutes long, perhaps jump to 1m10s) ...Now before I get my nickers in a twist over this one, I remind you that he claims this (and many things like it) because he wants people to get mad! He says so himself. He wants people to engage so he can use analogies and the philosophical approach to get his 'ideas' across. (I say) ideas are easy and useless; actions are what count. But let's not digress, Mr Fresco swaps the word 'invent' or 'create' and substitutes the word 'think' (i.e. we can not 'think' of anything). Nor then, he would say, can we 'reason'.

    But this is of course, disingenuous. How about the proof behind the Pythagoras Theorem? Einstein pondering travelling on a photon of light? SMH. Our ability to use abstraction? To make tools? Art and music? Disingenuous is being generous.

    Many of his stories, too, are dubious at best. For example, in his discussion as a child with Einstein, in the above clip (!!??), he claims Einstein '...pinned me down. He wouldn't let me get away with language". Pfff, but Fresco (if not fibbing about the whole affair) would have us afford him that luxury? Putz.

    But okay, let me give him some benefit of the doubt and suggest to you he actually says all these things to shake us up; to speak to us in a way we might understand, so as to get us to "begin to question" our preconceived, incorrect notions of how things are and how the world works. Good for you Mr Fresco.

    But, to me, and this is crucial, he carefully hides his disdain for our gullibility / stupidity, and THAT makes him a TERRIBLE self proclaimed social engineer wannabee, who talks a lot and needs more money (because that's the system we live in).

    TZM has been corrupted, to a large degree, why would TVP be immune? It wouldn't and it isn't. Corruption - leading to greed, addiction, crime and more leaks out of this model just as it does in every other. The "transition" can not be made gradually (we would have seen SOME evidence of it so far if it could). So the "transition" has to happen globally and virtually overnight. In other words TVP is about a revolution implementing central planning. Sigh, no fear there then huh?

    As far as I can tell, TVP is a form of advanced technological global socialism, that uses / needs / absolutely must have, all the world's resources to create some form of creative diversity/innovation that promises to outperform capitalism. Unfortunately, as it's a nice idea, the vast majority are not prepared to tear down the entire existing system completely, including private property, just to see if it might work this time on a global scale, through a loosely defined notion of a "transition". (imo)

  8. ulickmcgee

    Excellent documentary. Good man Jacques, 97 years of age and going strong. Respect.

  9. Suzy Spellcheck

    tvp and tzm

    there is very little that the projects do aside from
    talk. their work solely revolves around producing materials that
    further the ideas

    you won’t hear of the projects partnering with
    any cause or organization that feeds or educates people, or that
    develops technologies that solve human problems. they exist like
    religions to control people and take their money while offering nothing
    of real value.

    You won’t see any of their own lifesaving solutions and designs they
    claim to have produced released under a not-for-profit licence such as Creative Commons so that they could be utilized by humanitarian
    organizations.

    fresco does not and cannot cite scientific sources to support his conclusions as there are none.

    the complete article is available on my blog.

    commenting there is closed

  10. Todd Morrow

    I volunteered to do computer programming for this project. Never heard back. That was in 2011. They only want media and web people to build more promotional websites and make more movies. They are not interested in solving any actual problems. Sad.

  11. Janeen Clark

    to the people whining and crying about how they dont do anything its
    YOUR job and my job to make a RBE a reality if you dont it wont happen.

  12. Janeen Clark

    i cant believe the things people are saying. it was never tvp job to transform the entire planet into a place where we can actually survive and advance humanity. because it hasn't happened your giving up? its your job and everyone's job to transform the entire planet , you throw the responsibility on them to do everything. if you don't want it to happen continue to do nothing we will live in slavery some more until we use up all resources collapse civilization and go extinct from abusing the planet . then you wont have nothing to whine and moan about.

  13. Janeen Clark

    yes, because you know exactly everything they do huh? what because they wont sell themselves out to be pimped by the current system and altered to extort people?your unhappy? your projecting assumptions all over tvp instead of asking the questions you have directly to them very cowardly huh? because they arnt leasing TVP to be the next coca cola your giving up? how about this, maybe there is more to it than you know about and if you politely asked their reasons for their actions you could be enlightened on the matter. you obviously took nothing from the last 7or 8 years because they covered this very thing you doing "projecting" "expectations" "assumptions"

  14. Janeen Clark

    its not ridiculous it is a visual concept of the phrase "an entire system your studying is made up of separate components that all work together you need to understand each part then assemble all the parts now you understand the whole.

  15. Janeen Clark

    your saying all this stuff in your comment but its all just your thoughts inside your head not based on what is happening here on earth.

  16. Janeen Clark

    so you didnt get your way now there the bad guys huh?

  17. Janeen Clark

    they are not going to conform and corrupt to the current system as you have .

  18. Janeen Clark

    you made assumptions and had expectations of tvp based off your way of thinking and reality didnt match up so you abandoning the idea of saving the human race and a free society for the first time sickening.

  19. Janeen Clark

    exactly if everone put in the effort he has we would live in that world, maybe its already too late but im going to give up this is the world i have wanted my whole life.these are the ideas i have shared and values , a free society is the evolution of humanity. domination slavery and corruption is the child like stage of humanity

  20. Janeen Clark

    we either go to rbe or go extinct thats our choice as it gets closer to fallout we will see what happens i guess when all the middleclass are gone and more and more enslaved we run out of gasoline as the world falls apart maybe your tantrum will subside.

  21. Janeen Clark

    if people go out there and teach people about it and how reality works and the current system then focused on their contributions we would already have freedom, but instead we get whining and crying from so called previous supporters "oh , i didnt wake up one morning to find this new world so i guess its not happening im mad at tvp then!"

  22. Todd Morrow

    Janeen, my response to you is very simple:

    Volunteer with them, and observe what they do and what they ask of you, and see what happens, and report back. If they let you do any kind of computer (besides media / web) or science or engineering, let us know. I will stand corrected.

    I'm not the best programmer out there, but they didn't hold an interview or ask for my resume or even use any of their web building skills to create a forum so that technical / scientific people could start a discussion about design. They don't know if I'm good or if I suck because they never asked.

    We all want the same things, I'm sure. So go try it, and let us know.

  23. Janeen Clark

    funny how (previous supporters)people complain about repeated material being presented for years and yet in the way they communicate and extract information and their behavior (the previous supporters) they have not used any of this previous materail on themselves so big surprise when it gets repeated again it will until you actually don't need to hear it anymore until you advance and evolve yourself to the next level where you have worked at it and now your ready for the next level.

  24. Janeen Clark

    in 10 years we will need 7 more earths to continue on like we are now so its just a snap away we will all be suffering because we were too lazy to go out there and make change when we had the chance ,oh well i guess your happy with extinction or just denying it.

  25. Janeen Clark

    i feel you. and know what its like but to transform that experience into other thoughts in your mind that transform into a enemy image of tvp there is no excuse for it . you know this i think your just frustrated like all us but remember dividing ourselves even more benefits what? giving up benefits what? if we cave in to the domination based lifestyle accomplishes what?

  26. Janeen Clark

    we have to remember it may have already been too late by the time tvp got the large exposure audience years ago (the amount of abuse to humanity and the planet) but we have to find our own place as a new evolved level of understanding takes place based on larger sets of information about reality.

  27. Janeen Clark

    did you use the info to transform your life and evolve yourself forever or watch a few documentaries with hopes and dreams. ask yourself which one is going to create a new world of freedom respect for life and earth?

  28. Fabien L'Amour

    "By applying the same intensity of positive focus to global pursuits, we can improve the view of our planet, even from the stars." Wow, did they invent telescopes that could directly see the earth in detail from other stars? TVP, Stop working on your earth project and contact SETI a.s.a.p.

  29. dmxi

    ahh,the venus project (also known as the 'penus ' eject &/or
    the venus-trap)......the 'feel-good' variation of the much feared 'new
    world odor...eh order'.always smirk when this option is used as a
    rhetorical alternative in online debates to the 'impending' NWO as the
    former reads like a sugar-coated version of the latter ( all being
    pursued with the accompanying dictator-dvd with its extras coming in the
    form of the intellectual narrative by americas sweetheart:alex
    jones!)....i'll meet you all at the next 'hunger games',could do with a
    camping trip...its more fun than being 'camped';you know,less 'gulag-ly' more 'gestapo-ly'!
    -the durutti column-

  30. Janeen Clark

    yeah thats it. where do people get these things? this is why diplomas from fruitloop cereal boxes are worn with pride

  31. dmxi

    cheers for the smile!

  32. Janeen Clark

    i think we be better off working together and voicing concerns and what are needs are than to be against any group wanting to better mankind

  33. ulickmcgee

    My sentiments exactly Janeen!

  34. DigiWongaDude

    Ok, here's a voiced concern: As you're a clear proponent of a RBE and working together, what happens to those who do not wish to give up private property?

  35. Fabien L'Amour

    They say in the video problems stem from classes yet in the city concept showed at the end, you clearly see a class disproportion with multiple lodging in high-rises surrounded by mansions in nature around the city.

  36. badconduct

    You can rename everything and change it's value, but that doesn't change society. You end up with the exact same problems and different groups of people.

    You can't just reeducate people to live in harmony and expect no resistance. You can't abolish debt and finance without providing a way for people to invest in new ideas. People who live in excess also take excessive risks. These leaps in technology we see today are funded by wealthy corporations and individuals, like Elon Musk.

  37. DigiWongaDude

    It's a very, very good point Fabien. Everyone is equal, just some are more equal than others, even if that equality difference is only a perceived one. Even if all the houses were the exact same, there might be perceptions of class that arose from sectors (Hunger Games?) ... I'm reminded more of the opening scene from 'Gangs of New York' - A potentially wonderful & free new world filled with opportunity... yet the [film's] reality was somewhat otherwise. Perhaps a very poor example, all things considered, but the traps are there no matter how you slice the city pie.

    Edit: Happened to come across this on youtube "A Resource Based Economy Won't Work - A Recipe For Disaster"; a condemnation of rbe, Peter Josephs and TVP, on THEIR approach to RBE alone. Nailed nicely shut by the guy from 'Storm Clouds Gathering'. I agree with him on every point, 100%.

  38. Janeen Clark

    classes arise from values and mindset set by the systems that govern humans. in a monetary system the richer people are sought after and envy. in a RBE people dont even have to live in the same house all the time they not restricted like this world they could live in the city structure for a week then go to a small cabin in the woods for a week then go to a city on the ocean to study wildlife then go to a forest city etc. it is only failure of comprehension of the values of a RBE that leads to these riduculs thoughts you guys have.

  39. Janeen Clark

    private property is a phenomenon of the current system that on the surface seems like its a right or positive thing for you but when you dig down to what it means its saying you cannot have access or are restricted from anything that is not your private property. in a rbe everything is your "property" if you would like to think that way about it.

  40. Janeen Clark

    so anything someone has in this system private property wise . they would have that along with everything else in the universe. now of course it is not restricted from others (the universe) but really think about that for a moment it is a mental disorder to believe you must prevent others from accessing something for you to get your needs met by it. this does not mean anything would be taken away form you either it means. you can go a get any object you need for its duration then return it like a public library, if there are things you use everyday all day long you hang onto those, but most things people maybe use something 6 hours out of 24 hours.

  41. Janeen Clark

    in this world we fill up our house with junk we never use but some of the time an then when we fill our house that's it but being able to access things anywhere you need to removes these burden from you ,

  42. steviecomment

    Hello Janeen, your comments are all over this documentary. Why don't you take on peoples concerns about a RBE. Calling peoples thoughts ridiculous is pointless and a non argument. Also a shared community sharing property is problematic, people would find the better properties and stay there.

  43. Janeen Clark

    digiwonadude, think about say youtube it is evolution to have free access and anyone can put up videos we all can access like a public library this comes from advancements . a rbe does this very same thing but with all the world and society . just imagine if yotube or google or top doc films site charged money for everything little thing it easy to see why that would be worse. now just expand these concepts out to everything that is a rbe a free society on earth for the first time it is a evolution of martin Luther king ghandi etc and an evolution like we seen with public libraries and free websites. when you create free access you enrich people lives , this is evolution, intelligently designed by us.

  44. Janeen Clark

    of course after you grasp the basics , there are extremely detailed technical aspects about a rbe that need to be grasped in order to understand how it would be built to be successful. it is only from accurate science a rbe works from it does not gamble on unknowns this can be confusing for some because the ideas can be seen as radical without the background knowledge , fortunately you can take any separate area of understanding of an rbe and go research the latest research in the world about that topic,

  45. Janeen Clark

    okay sorry , thank you i will. ( inever meant they were ridiculus i meant changing a rbe in your mind to be something different then beating it down is ridiculus which is what happened)

  46. over the edge

    I have looked into RBE. It looks great on paper but so did many other failed and terrible ideas. There are too many unanswered questions to take it seriously. Here are just a few questions I have been asking since the start that nobody has answered with any degree of facts and data to back an answer up.
    - How do you get the control of the resources in the first place? If that control is taken by force or theft count me out. What if someone doesn't want to give up sacred lands or a property that has been their family for generations. What about religious holdings?
    - What if just a few countries choose not to join due to the will of their people? What if for example those countries have a disproportionate amount of needed resources? We can't be so niave to think everyone will want to join. The countries rich in resources have no incentive to give them up. Please do not tell me that they will be won over by "the good of all" argument.
    -Who decides how resources will be dispensed? Everyone feels they deserve more and majority rule usually punishes the minority. Somebody WILL be in charge.

  47. Janeen Clark

    thanks for joining in over the edge those are important concerns. ill number the responses to match the questions you present sir. 1. so you mention "control" a rbe is not about control it means people have to have the knowledge about an rbe whcih makes the question obsolete in that particular situation here's why , by contributing what they have in return they gain access to the rest of the rbe on earth. now if people do not do this we can't have an rbe but it would only be possible for them to not want to if they didn't know enough about it that is why we are still in the phase of educating people.. 2.if they do not join then we cannot have a rbe so in return for them not joining they will lose access to the entire planet that a bre offers , a free society will access to anything you can imagine and just continue with what they currently have which is their choice. again this could only be possible iof they did not know what rbe actually is or thought it was something different than what it actually is which means we stay in phase 1 longer spread the information until people choose to research it. 3. so who decides? well even though its much different than today we can still use this world as an example because people focus on different fields. lets take the internet for example because it exhibits the same type of qualities a high degree complexity interconnection ,nodes, that connect, exchangin of information and a main frame (web-browsers) we all use to connect and use it. the graphic designers control the graphics the coders control the code the engineers install fiber optics and on and on. a rbe is just like this except its an open system no propriety systems no restrictions to how things work and what the connections are so anyone can improve upon any aspect they have the knowledge to make an impact with and are passionate about. now answering the aspect about "deserving" and someone being in charge. a rbe is not compatible with those ideas , they are not scientific they are an offshoot of a primative culture like we have now. we have to think about what people really want and need which is access to what important to them in this current world .
    finally it is important to understand a rbe makes "control" domination violence obsolete and non possible because the goal of a rbe is to break those things down to how they work and build into the system them not making sense. in a money system the rules of the game are domination, control, manipulation, in a rbe the rules of the game are sustainability free access, advancement. giving people what they need enriching their lives all working together and intelligently designing a world that gets updated often just like computers and tech does. is it odd that in this world government and politics and religion are identical as they were 3k years ago? while computers advance every few months? in a rbe we update everything constantly to reap the rewards of working together caring about all humans as if they are your own newborn child.

  48. Fabien L'Amour

    Youtube and Google are for profit companies that get their revenues mostly from ads, they aren't like a library. They are more like broadcasting companies and internet providers are like cable companies.

  49. Janeen Clark

    yes but in the example i give i am focusing on the aspect of usability from the person end of things they can go and use it without buying anything that is the connection im making.

  50. Janeen Clark

    im showing its easy to see thing being even more "capitalist" than they are now. like imagine youtube buying each video imagine each google search or even every website having to pay , imagine you go to your friends house and he charges you a glass of milk and a entrance fee. imagine you make you child do chores to work off each meal they eat. imagine "free speech" being thought of as communist idea imagine if the slaves were never freed because it was a utopian idea these give a window into how we can make things even better by removing restriction control domination from the current world.

  51. Fabien L'Amour

    Without everybody thinking that RBE is a great new idea, there is not a chance it would work. RBE stems from the freedom to explore new ideas but spells the doom of anyone proposing not RBE based ideas after it is implemented. I vote for freedom to think any day.

  52. over the edge

    My concerns were not addressed. You present no facts, no answers backed by data. just an ideal that if only everyone were educated they would think as I do. That is arrogant and naive.

    If I "contributing what they have in return they gain access to the rest of the rbe on earth" Does that mean if I need all the computer power on earth to conduct an experiment I can horde all the computers? Who decides if I get that access? What if I am wasteful with the resources? Does somebody curtail my use? Who decides what is wasteful?

    "if they do not join then we cannot have a rbe" Thank you for such an honest answer (you are the first to do so). I honestly believe that there will never be a time when everybody wishes to join. so the project is dead in the water already. You cannot possibly believe that everyone can agree on anything.

    You seem to think the internet is a completely free and open entity. It is far from it. If it was it would be useless. Access is limited and denied regularly. while I disagree with most of the access restrictions some are completely needed. As a mod i restrict people on occasion. That is the knife edge we walk. Someone (or group of people) need to have a degree of control. I think that control should be as limited as possible but still necessary.

    In closing. The RBE system is not ready to roll out. Attempting to "educate" others on an incomplete system is only going to poison the well. If it is possible the idea is a long way from being ready for beta testing. The product is being released with too many bugs in the system and will drive potential users away, I can give useless analogies that answer nothing as well

  53. Janeen Clark

    im not sure how what you have said here connects to a rbe at all sir.

  54. Janeen Clark

    imagine i am a computer monitor creator and a person calls in with a question "how do you get the people to stay inde the screen and not fall out when watching a movie?" and i politely explain to them how the monitor i created works and they respond "yopu never answered how you prent the people from falling out ..........." there is no response i could give to help them unless they learned a bit more about it first.

  55. over the edge

    I was directly answering quotes from you, Using analogies in place of facts (like you) and disagreeing with your ideas concerning the internet. while completely agreeing with one of your statements

  56. over the edge

    Oh i see.I am too uneducated for you to provide facts and data. I get it now.

  57. Janeen Clark

    not in any way. i gave you the answers and you responded like the above analogy.

  58. Fabien L'Amour

    Do not ask questions, RBE is the solution to every problem without any form of control. They will implement it for you perfectly if you don't ask questions. ;)

  59. Janeen Clark

    i dont understand what that means or how it pertains at all sir.

  60. over the edge

    you gave one answer. ""if they do not join then we cannot have a rbe" that was it. analogies and your say so are not answers to any critical thinker. The rest is word salad and double speak. I need actual data and direct answers in order to be won over. Stating something is not about control is not an answer worth accepting. If there is absolutely no control over resources there is nothing to stop a group of crazy people from using them for destructive purposes. If you argue that there will be no more crazy self destructive people then you are wrong.

  61. over the edge

    Sorry my bad :)

  62. Janeen Clark

    here is the easiest answer there are hundreds of hours of videos youtube jacque fresco online seminar after a while the questions answer themselves little by little as you go through each aspect in full complexity and how it connects to the next otherwise it is the same as the analogy with the monitor builder, how can i possibly answer questions about a detailed system stemming the entire planet interconnected satisfactory when the person asking does not have the basics down first it is too detailed to create short answers where you instantly have all that knowledge pop into your head from a sentence i wrote.

  63. Janeen Clark

    the only way its possible to deny a rbe or to be against it is if you dont know what it is how it works .

  64. Fabien L'Amour

    No control, domination or manipulation but everybody needs to think the same through education and can't escape the system once it is implemented or they don't get access to the resources. WTF!

  65. Fabien L'Amour

    The only way it's possible to deny communism or to be against it is if you don't know what it is how it works.

  66. Janeen Clark

    ?scratches head? um what?

  67. Janeen Clark

    how can i communicate with you about something detailed and technical if you dont know anything about it without analogies? there isnt enough comment box the write out thousands of pages of a book describing every aspect in full detail. yet somehow thats my burden?

  68. Janeen Clark

    no communism can be listed out several hundred ways to deny it just lik capitalism , in fact list out all the ways the 2 are different. much shorter list.

  69. Janeen Clark

    yes and people said a man would never go the the moon people said thunder was god farting and thought the flu was evil spirits. yet somehow we advanced since those ideas head in their mind.

  70. Janeen Clark

    its disrespectful you didn't even read all i write you just changed the subject to personal attacks and didn't hone in on a concern you felt was not answered with "facts" what is the theory of gravity going to answer a question relating to what if people dont do this or that?

  71. Janeen Clark

    see what the evidence that there are "crazy" people at all? when fully examined there are thousands of details of a human and many outside influences causing behavior we don't or do agree with.

  72. Fabien L'Amour

    Nevermind, the only way it's possible to disagree with you is because one lacks the knowledge you possess. Hence, it's impossible to have a valid conversation exchanging ideas. I want no part in your new society the way you think.

  73. Janeen Clark

    so your saying i should be able to explain a entire system like say auto engineering to you in a small comment box, because if you ask a question about it but don't like the answer given because your lack of knowledge about it i would be being elitist?

  74. over the edge

    It is only your burden if you wish to gain the support of those who have not been won over. That choice is yours. I have watched all the docs. visited many websites that supporters of RBE have sent me to and read countless pages of "answers" there. I am not convinced. Not because I haven't looked but because when I did there were no hard facts. Stating the system(s) we now have is/are broken and unsustainable is not proof that RBE is possible or better. Claiming that the technologies needed will exist does not make it true. Claiming everyone will behave and greed jealosy and envy will evaporate is laughable. You continuing assertion that others who do not think as you do need "education" just makes me put you in the same class as those who cllaim the "reptillian illuminati" control everything.

  75. Fabien L'Amour

    The only way its possible to deny a rbe or to be against it is if you dont know what it is how it works.

    Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
    Obiwan Kenobi

  76. over the edge

    Yes we did. But reasonable people did not accept the answers until they were backed by actual facts and data. something you have yet to provide.

  77. Janeen Clark

    no you have not or you wouldn't be asking questions you have or responding the way you have.
    the evidence of you total knowledge about a rbe is evident in the way you communicate about it the same with biology or anything else. if we where having a convo about biology and i said "the liver stores the human soul" would you think i researched biology at all?

  78. over the edge

    I read all you wrote and it was void of facts. as for personal attacks you have been implying i am uneducated since your second response. I only reply in kind

  79. over the edge

    Now you are calling me a liar? You have provided no facts, accused me of going off topic and personal attacks. I will leave it up to others here to read our conversation in order and see who is using these tactics me or you. I am going to move on now. If you wish to provide actual facts or data to directly answer my questions or backup your claims I will respond. If not well good luck convincing others

  80. Janeen Clark

    i dont know what this means sir i cant figure it out. what are the facts that we can have a rbe unless people do it willingly or........?

  81. Janeen Clark

    what facts have you laid out? when where we talking about something where facts fit in ?remind me?

  82. Fabien L'Amour

    Planetary domination of one doctrine. It has been proposed before and was presented as the solution to all problems.

  83. Janeen Clark

    the whole world can see whether you researched it or not just as if someone says (in a biology conversation)"the liver contains the human soul" did they really research biology?

  84. over the edge

    I am not stating I have an answer. What exactly what do you think I need to provide facts about?

  85. Janeen Clark

    all you have to do is show how its possible to deny a rbe or be against it while fully understanding what it is and how it works . saying things like that does you no good in that specific regard.

  86. over the edge

    another analogy in lieu if facts.

  87. Janeen Clark

    wait whats happening here? i never was going on and on about facts that was you i was pointing out in the context of our conversation where could facts fit in at which place?

  88. over the edge

    You seem to have it backwards. Facts and data showing efficacy need to be shown first. Then and only then should a solution be implemented

  89. Janeen Clark

    if someone claims the earth is flat do they need education? if someone thinks the flu is evil spirits do they need education? there are many times most in fact a person's ability to fathom something depends on their totality of knowledge pertaining to that subject let alone the ability to conversation about it.

  90. over the edge

    You made claims. I asked questions (that you never answered). You are proposing a solution and if you wish to convince me I need facts. This will be my last response to you unless facts are presented. I feel like a broken record

  91. Fabien L'Amour

    Freedom.

  92. Janeen Clark

    make a list for me in which regard pertaining to what circumstance would you like facts about. horticulture, city planning, psychology, structural engineering, biology, mathematics, history, evolution of species, religion art, earth science, ? which area specifically?

  93. Janeen Clark

    freedom is a rbe. in a rbe nothing could be more free. give me an example of something being more free just one without a rbe.

  94. Pascalore

    @Todd Morrow Many are ready to take the first steps in an actual transformation, but it seams that TVP as well as TZM are not and until 'they' are, no real-world corrections will be implemented. It is possible that these are sugar coated NWO projects to determine who is against the elites, though Jaques seems completely sincere (and has for many years). The elites have also always taken the best of what the people of the world have created and found ways to use that against us. Remember Nicola Tesla who developed a way to provide the world with freely available electricity and was shut down while his generators were used via meters to charge each and every user of that energy.

    Sadly, it is the control of money which has hamstrung the entire world. Think about this: I don't have any use for money except to pass what I collect on to someone else who has no use for money except to pass what they collect on to someone else who has no use...it is a vicious circle that everyone is caught in. Realize this too, that when you buy something you are not buying the thing, but providing money to the seller to replace the item you purchased with a new one.

    This is really off the wall, but if you have heard/seen any audio/video regarding Al Bielek and his trip into the future, he describes the Venus Project cities to a tee. Obviously not conclusive, but if true, there is still no way to know if the elites win or not as he also states that the population of the world seemed to be held at 500 million which is the number described on the Georgia Guide Stones.

  95. Janeen Clark

    i answered you . your questions where not relating to facts in any way shape or form.

  96. over the edge

    The actual topic of this doc and the specific questions I asked.

  97. Janeen Clark

    here ill ask you a question about your question ."why would anyone NOT want a rbe while fully understanding what it is will offer and comprehends what it actually is and how it works ?" thats my question to you sir my point is what evidence do you have that your questions make sense in the context or a rbe?

  98. Fabien L'Amour

    Exchanges based on a common agreement between individuals of the value of the goods or services exchanged or provided.

  99. Janeen Clark

    i answered your questions clear and concise, are you saying you dont understand the answer? you may need to research the topic if you dont like the answers bu they are true and fact.

  100. Janeen Clark

    i dont know what this means. are you saying you haven't looked into how arbe works in details yet you dont know where to get that info is that what your trying to say because i can assist in that just say what you mean then.

  101. Janeen Clark

    the facts are the same facts in all reality there are no separate facts for a rbe. the difference is in this current world little is operated on facts except science . in a rbe everything is like that.

  102. Janeen Clark

    what are your facts that a "crazy" person is something that exists are you using double speak for a person that does things negative to themselves or others?

  103. Janeen Clark

    what claims did i make?

  104. Janeen Clark

    if you research the topic you will be left with no questions if someone is repeating "facts, i need facts!" about mathematics i would say read a math book or if on history research it. i cant give you thousands of pages of details on a comment board . just research it until you have no questions. if you had questions about a gasoline engine and "needed facts" there would be a point where you made it through the material and no questions left.

  105. Janeen Clark

    see you talk with hidden meanings in your writing. your saying you dont know how greed and jealousy work, well research it fin the newest findings in neuro biology science papers in all feilds learn about genes and what activates them learn about what is shaping human behavior then that question will be answered you wouldn't say things like" expect people to not have greed and jealously" and the same for all your "concerns" the concerns are based on not having knowledge of how particular things work go research them then you will i cant do that for you .

  106. Janeen Clark

    its like someone saying to a doctor "how do you KNOW blood letting is unhealthy form of weight-loss? iof they had the information based on that topic and how the circulatory system works and the human body they would think in their head "that dosent make any sense" but imagine someone trying to convince them when the person hasn't researched it yet. the facts dont come from me or tvp they come from reality. each human has a responsibility to reaserach each separate discipline or suffering the consequences regarding fathom of detailed systems of operation.

  107. Todd Morrow

    I have narrowed it down to a single issue - detect and arrest psychopaths. Do that, and all the rest might take care of itself.

    This is not an unsolvable problem. DNA or brain testing might reveal them some day. Once they were outed, it would take a social upheaval to alter the laws to prevent any known psychopath from running anything, but I think that too is possible.

    All the horrible things we see in these documentaries eventually trace back to something some psychopath did, in my opinion. They truly are the root of all evil.

  108. Janeen Clark

    any time someone is yelling out "i need the facts" what their saying is "i dont know how it works" and that is something a comment box cannot provide.

  109. over the edge

    I can't believe i am getting sucked back in but here goes. I will only accept answers based in actual science and knowns as this statement made by you claims

    "it is only from accurate science a rbe works from it does not gamble on unknowns" okay?

    "if they do not join then we cannot have a rbe" Then show me the accurate science that shows everybody will join or this avenue is fruitless.

    "finally it is important to understand a rbe makes "control" domination violence obsolete" science backing that up please?

    " you can go a get any object you need for its duration then return it like a public library" again If i needed all the computing power to perform an experiment I can deny all others access until I am done?

    "people dont even have to live in the same house all the time they not restricted like this world they could live in the city structure for a
    week then go to a small cabin in the woods for a week then go to a city on the ocean to study wildlife then go to a forest city etc" What if too many people wanted the same property at the same time? who decides who gets it?

    "in 10 years we will need 7 more earths to continue on like we are now" Science please?

    "we either go to rbe or go extinct thats our choice" prove that dichotomy

    Please provide the science to back up these claims. remenber an analogy is not science. Do not worry about my knowledge as I am well educated on the scientific method so be as technical as you can Thank you

  110. over the edge

    lol. I ask for facts all the time concerning topics I know very well. Verifying for myself is a must for me. I also get asked for facts when I make a claim and I am always prepared to provide the facts or I admit i can't.

  111. Janeen Clark

    if you need facts and data go learn about tvp . if you did that you would not need the facts and data you would know that piece just like any thing else .

  112. Janeen Clark

    this is "over the edge" haha

  113. Janeen Clark

    the only way a rbe can happen if everyone joins together and begins to create a rbe, there is no other way it could happen it is a system that frees people fro the first time removes domination violation restriction violence war poverty , any system that did that would have to unite all people to pull it off.

  114. Janeen Clark

    go read about it a learn what it is thats all i can say about it im not investing anymore in this particular convo with you when your not willing to.

  115. over the edge

    So instead of an answer you make another baseless claim

    "there is no other way it could happen it is a system that frees people fro the first time removes domination violation restriction violence war poverty" Please provide ths science proving there is no other way? Also the science proving this system provides the results that statement claims?

  116. Janeen Clark

    ill say this if you wanted to create a system that makes domination and control impossible an obsolete first you would have to learn what makes them possible how it works the psychological aspects and then when you build your system to have that knowledge to build it out of the system instead of building as the very rules themselves like money and government its a complex matter that takes years of research just this one topic to get an answer you satisfied with there are no shortcuts.

  117. over the edge

    Again. When I looked into it these answers were not there. Maybe I didn't look in the right place, read the right paper or watched the right video. I admit I cannot find the answers to my questions or your claims. So why not give me a specific location where these specific things are addressed? I cannot be the first person to ask these questions. If RBE has the answers please show me where. Stating read and watch everything does not help. I googled "resorce based ecenemy" and got 12,800,000 results. Nobody can expect someone to go through that much data.

  118. Janeen Clark

    it seems like your getting the wrong impression of tvp their not telling you to put in place the things they have made so far they telling people to do it themselves everyone get together make designs efficiently fix the problems inventions are examples of what just one man can do it up to us to make a world for us not for government and money and people are crap

  119. Janeen Clark

    the choice is ours what does that mean?think about that sentence they are telling us to join together work together create a new world dont let humanity go extinct like we are on right now. make a world of freedom make inventions open and fee to constantly advance on t he best thing we know of make things free for people because all negative behavior comes form restrictions and retaliations of domination and control we either do his or we wont be around long enough to regret not doing it.

  120. Janeen Clark

    jacque isnt saying accept what he has made and do what he says he is saying make that world yourself with everyone else design it so violence is not possible make things free or people give knowledge about reality update things as much as possible stop wasting and destroying and war and poverty they exist for no good reason we are dying off we will witness our own demise in the next 20 years or so if we dont step in and work together and rebuild with the newest knowledeg what is relevant the best fats we have . things can be improved

  121. Janeen Clark

    do you think a hundred year old man is goin to live long enough to see this and his exact designs are going to be implemented? no comon it is examples of what can be done to better the world. he wants you top done what he has done that is research build understand and improve things all working together freely .

  122. Janeen Clark

    you dont need tvp to do anything other than what have , we can join up by the millions and understand reality design from scratch a free world optimized just like the newest computers we don't need 3000 year old superstition controlling our world with no good reason for it.

  123. Janeen Clark

    if you are educated in science than you know the answers to your own questions! tvp is simply saying use science to its fullest potential in every way every aspect. in this current world it is far far from being used in every way

  124. over the edge

    So no proof for your claims then? You asked " what claims did i make?" I provide some of them and in return i get multiple replies and no answers to your claims

  125. Janeen Clark

    i dont know what that means a rbe uses science which is where facts comes so...........? there is no other hidden body of knowledge about facts other than science

  126. Janeen Clark

    the current world does not do this like war poverty what are the scientific basis for them?> none what are government and domination and money ? none they are figments of imagination if you designed a world round science and fact you would get rid of them because your using fact. .

  127. Janeen Clark

    my claims are everybody grow up work together start from scratch taking the best knowledge we know and redesign a world actually for people not enslaving people simple. facts are the foundation.

  128. over the edge

    I am not talking about how the world works now or disagreeing on how it works. Stop changing the subject. Just show me the science you claim to have to back up your claims. I will no longer chase your red herrings

  129. over the edge

    That is not what you claimed. Are you now claiming you past claims were wrong?

  130. Janeen Clark

    is the current world built on the best available knowledge or just gradual built up over time and some things not changing for 3000 years like religion government politics etc? so its time to redesign get rid of all the non sense before we go extinct. there's your facts. if you need specifics go research it pick a field any field you want human population growth you want support systems in decline you want the oceans weather anything that fits in reality needs to be researched to have your facts you need to research it all.

  131. Janeen Clark

    i'm claiming you have insufficient data to make any assumptions at this present time.

  132. over the edge

    None of this backs up your claims or provides evidence that TVP is the answer. The fact that things are not perfect now does not mean TVP is the answer

  133. over the edge

    And I have asked for data over and over. You claim to have it. All i ask is you share it openly and back up your specific claims. You provide the exact same answers as a creationist. That is not a good thing

  134. Janeen Clark

    no, your right BUT right now tvp is some alien thing to you that you no nothing about go find out and the peic3es will together. its just like anything else yes if i know nothing about how structural engineering works i may have many questions about it but once i start researching it they begin to be answered just by knowing what structural engineering is then if i have specific questions about it i can talk to someone.

  135. Janeen Clark

    a rbe gathers these up from history the best we have then uses them.

  136. over the edge

    Another assumption on my knowledge and a refusal to back up your claims.

  137. Janeen Clark

    you asked what if people dont want to? here s a question for you what if the inhabitants of state dont want to all come together and rent out a peice of land for a picnic? answer? there will be no picnic.

  138. Janeen Clark

    its the same thing with a rbe a rbe IS the global inhabitants coming together and rebuilding a world FOR people not for profit not for control not for enslavement.

  139. over the edge

    Another false dichotomy. And nothing backing up your claims (no I will not let that go). Will be offline for a couple hours will check for facts when I get back

  140. Janeen Clark

    if they dont want to then it does not happen and we go extinct from money and government like we are currently.

  141. Janeen Clark

    i dont know what you mean sir.

  142. Janeen Clark

    my claims are to use whats been already backed up by science as far as anything science can make a difference with.

  143. Janeen Clark

    everything is backing my claims. there isnt one things that goes against my claim in reality.

  144. Janeen Clark

    what evidence do you have of false dichotomy (i can play by the proof game as well) nothing you have said is supported by facts. im saying only use facts. to build a new world.

  145. Janeen Clark

    your talking in circles bud.

  146. Janeen Clark

    see you never say a specific area you have questions about or want facts about but thats what people do when their looking for facts

  147. Fabien L'Amour

    Yes but I am explaining to you that all that free stuff is provided by the for profit companies you want to get rid of in your new society.

    Without their business model and revenues, Youtube and Google wouldn't be what they are and wouldn't provide you with their free services.

  148. badconduct

    And what do we do with everyone who doesn't join?
    Kill them? Force them off their land? Take their rights away? Rob them of their wealth?

  149. Fabien L'Amour

    As I understand it, his premise is that everybody will agree it's a fantastic system, give all their possessions and will live happily ever after. There won't be any control, domination and violence as humans will have been transformed through a new unknown type of education that will somehow remove human desires for power and private property. And if we don't do that, the species will become extinct. How the human race will be wiped off the planet isn't very clear though.

  150. Janeen Clark

    teach them about how reality works, thats the only reason they wouldn't want to. there is no other valid reason a human could have. just like there is no valid reason a person could have to be against freeing the slaves or womens rights etc. its from a lack of knowledge. people take those views.

  151. Janeen Clark

    thats a MISunderstanding , you dont give all your possesions. you dont actually dont have any possensions its language we use that means other people are restricted form it. but think about it at the very best in the current system you rent things until you pass away . ownership is religious type brainwashing , there is no scientific evidence of ownership that it exists in reality. we are a spec of dust in the universe . instead of "taking away possessions" as you say we declare the universe equally to everyone.

  152. Janeen Clark

    a question in this current world how many things will you never be able to "own" no matter what just because you wernt born into the richest families? you couldnt write a book large enough to describe all the things you will never own or "possess " and why? no reason , just because a few humans rule the rest mankind for the last 10,000 years so we keep pushing along that way with no question. there is no scientific evidence that any human should have trillions of dollars in any circumstance while billions of individuals cannot have a dollar and are dying they can never fix it they are suffering because pieces of paper with ink and and starving they are denied humanity they are garbage to the system of money worthless and no one cares because that is the rules of money. a real life board game billions die by.

  153. Janeen Clark

    violence and force is the most unintelligent things human can do. in a rbe even the most mentally handicap would be smarter than murder violence force war poverty. we will look back in disgust at those things as a reminder of what happens when domination becomes the norm.

  154. Janeen Clark

    would like to note your comment is evidence you have not researched this topic in any shape or form because early on that type of question would be answered way before you got to real detailed and sophisticated issues and concerns and questions. so if you expecting me to be able to write in a small comment box a new entire world system with new human values its not possible.

  155. Fabien L'Amour

    Good luck with the unilateral declaration and implementation. Without an armed revolution across the globe and overthrowing of all governments, I can't fathom how these goals would be achieved.

  156. Janeen Clark

    there is evidence we are not civilized. war poverty domination manipulation . every countries slaughtered it inhabitants and stole the land the usa any country killed and murdered thousands and stole the land that is your "founding fathers" off every country . and every war is to steal resources because we throw ours in land fills after dollar store items and 50cent cell phones break that is our prison we live in where your not allowed to leave your house without being stopped by police and you must be going to make money to spend money or to another box called a home . the 50 richest people own every cable and news station and shove down your throat your ideas for you. why is that even possible? because it the rules of the very game of money and government to rules the masses.

  157. Janeen Clark

    and how do you react when people want to free you from this prison? oh what are you going to kill everyone that does not want to go along with it? it boggles the mind did people ask martin Luther king are you going to murder the people that don't want equal rights? the answer is no when your trying to free people the first time on earth and give them everything they need and want and create a healthy world that can exist and flourish you dont kill people that dont want that you scratch your head and give them books.

  158. Janeen Clark

    what do you do with children that dont make their bed? murder them? no the answer is no.

    people that advocate a rbe love every human as if they are their own child because humanity is literally a family science shows us this with evidence through dna genetics and history of evolution every human is just as valuable as the person you love most in life . we care about every human that way. the human brain and humanity has been shown to be the most special and valuable thing in the universe by science humans are precious animals all life is also and the planet itself these are the real things that are important valuable and irreplaceable . science has proven this.

  159. Janeen Clark

    we simply want to create a society that values what is really important not profit and domination those are fake and go against what is actually valuable in the universe backs by evidence. humans will come together and create this type world because it is the next evolution of humanity.

  160. Janeen Clark

    the younger generations will do it if the earth and humanity lasts long enough if this current generation has too many brainwashed that refuses to bee freed that's the cold hard facts.
    but really think about that for quick moment how much brainwashing would a human being need to actually fight to continue to be a dominated slave where every action thought is controlled till the day they die? every second of their life is planned out by those wealthier the people that teach their kids? controlled by the wealthier everything in their life is dictated that the world we live in.

    here is a simple test to get evidence of your freedom, write down on a sheet of paper as many things as you can that in this current world your NOT restricted in any way , that your FREE with and not controlled by wealthy and government and business. how big of a list can you come up with? now do the reverse.

  161. Janeen Clark

    here is a simple test to get evidence of your freedom, write down on a
    sheet of paper as many things as you can that in this current world
    your NOT restricted in any way , that your FREE with and not controlled
    by wealthy and government and business. how big of a list can you come
    up with? now do the reverse.

  162. DigiWongaDude

    I never understood (until reading ALL Janeen's mantra comments) why the West was so worried/concerned that communism (extreme socialism) would try to take over / infect the world. She'll say it isn't communism, hey ho, but the Cold War (from the West's perspective) always seemed more like a convenient excuse to build up a vast military industry... now I get it, thanks to Janeen. The two systems can NOT co-exist without a massive wall between them. It's virtually self evident why (I'll take all that free stuff, thanks very much, and use it to trade or sell and acquire wealth).

    No-one will be allowed to privately own anything (despite Janeen assuring us otherwise - 'nothing will be taken away from you'). Say someone decides to grow their own super weed or make moonshine and, worse, then begins using it as a means of exchange... exchange for sex with the neighbor's wife for example (whose husband is not best pleased). What happens then?... RULES.

    Codes of Conduct (laws are outlawed) are required, and before long rumors appear of secret 'gulag cities' and trouble-makers disappearing - the free fair open system claiming to be INCLUSIVE of all, suddenly becomes EXCLUSIVE. Incentive disappears (like it ever existed as anything more than a promised hope) and whispers of dissent grow stronger. The system starts to fall apart, because it was broken from the outset and propped up with lies.

    Corruption, exclusivity, apathy and lack of incentive, far from being absent from the model, kill TVP and TZM stone dead, and they know it. That's why there's no experimental cities, only talk and fund raising.

    The shame of it all (really) is that the weaker our current system gets through all its burgeoning problems, the more easily these deluded ideas gain traction, and worse, the more ready and enabled they become to pounce.

  163. DigiWongaDude

    I WILL take that test, and show you your delusion, just follow this simple logic...

    1) The law (in our current system) essentially tells us what we can NOT do. If we do any of those things we are 'breaking the law'. Anything that isn't breaking the law, we are free to do.

    2) Consider all the things we can possibly do (lawful or not)... THAT list is infinite.

    3) Subtract the list of things we mustn't do because the law says we are not allowed, and...

    4) We arrive at list of infinite things we CAN do freely. (Because there is no law saying otherwise).

    [If you subtract a finite from an infinite, you are still left with an infinite.]

    It is exactly that kind of false logic (and circular arguments) that are used to promote these ideas. Thank you, truly, for sharing such a neatly telling example, and the opportunity to expose it. Every one of your other comments on this doc contains very similar flawed thinking, which should be thoroughly reconsidered urgently.

  164. over the edge

    here is your false dichotomy "if they dont want to then it does not happen and we go extinct from money and government like we are currently." either we do what you propose or we go extinct? there are no other solutions?

    you state " nothing you have said is supported by facts" what claims have I made? please tell me and I will provide facts. I am immune to your red herrings.

    Do you ever plan on backing up your claims?

  165. over the edge

    please provide this science

  166. Anon

    The problem with the Venus project is that they still after all these years don't have a plan on how specifically they are going to take us from present day to futuristic utopia society. Every film is them ranting for 60min about how things should change but nobody has a detailed strategy to get us from here to there. It's always just 60min of complaining about society and then 10min of cg future cities and robots harvesting corn or sum ****. Venus project is pathetic they have no strategy to get to where they want everyone to go.

  167. Suzy Spellcheck

    great news!! today tvp will feed, clothe and provide shelter for hundreds of people today!! and just today are submitting all the factual science based data for rbe to peer review publications. no wait they won't do any of that. what they will do is beg for more money this time for their monthly magazine.

  168. ZeissIkon

    I've got to say, that's a very good reply. The tendency to centralise power is the real stumbling block for both the right and the left. The right wing pursue neoclassical economic principles that allow the capitalisation of the land and all its resources, which are the basis of power, the power gets concentrated into the hands of a few, corruption sets in at an early stage, absorbs the democratic system, the People wind up getting capitalised too and you get fascism. The left try to control the means of production, once again the power gets centralised, rotten apples float to the top and you get Stalin. Even the small experimental communes that sprung up in the 60's, also failed for precisely this reason, that if you put all your eggs in one basket then someone with a raging personality disorder always bloody wrecks it for everyone.

    It would seem that, if you employ an economic model that allows power to be monopolised like this, then all roads lead to fascism.
    We clearly need laws and structure, just as we need economic freedom to trade unhindered, but government should be as small and decentralised as possible and the economic rent from the monopolies of land and resources (essentially the parasitical and non productive sector) should be taxed back into the common wealth, thereby disincentivising such activities, whilst shifting the burden away from the productive sector (those who are actually making things and providing real services). For this reason, I personally believe that we need to re-establish the basic value differences between Land, People and Capital, before we can move forward out of the cul-de-sac we've been drifting down for over a century.

    As I've said before, we really need to kick the Chicago School into touch and get the Adam Smith stuff sorted out first before we get to do the Carl Sagan thing.
    Anyone else up for a level playing field?

  169. Janeen Clark

    NICE IMAGINATION. thats all you got there.

  170. Janeen Clark

    its only their job to talk about the ideas they need not do anymore its each and every human beings job to join together and create a better world designed for people , if not you wont have that world.

  171. Janeen Clark

    see your putting the burden of them to do these things why aren't you yourself doing them? how can you put them down what have you done to enrich anyone's life?

  172. Janeen Clark

    in 80 years the old will die the young will evolve your can beg for slavery but it is evolution of human rights to gradullly become more and more free call it any name you want freedom is what its about, if there is a planet and a humanity left from the consequences of government and money, the young generations are advancing and learning they less brainwashed and they will create freedom on this spec of dust called earth.

  173. Janeen Clark

    the problem with making assumptions without all the information is the person makes them-self look like a donkey.

  174. Janeen Clark

    question what makes you think ownership is about having something? if there was no ownership you would not be restricted from anything. ownership means you are only able to have the things you "own" the rest you have no right to. yet science shows us there is a whole universe out there who owns the 500 trillion galaxies out there that we are just a spec of dust in one? nobody. if no one owns 500 trillions galaxies . how is it possible for someone to own anything on this spec of dust? who owns the air you breathe? the idea of ownership is slavery.

  175. Janeen Clark

    question in this comment you posted where has anyone or anything said this? no where your methodology of thinking in your mind came up with this particular configuration of words based on your knowledge or there lack of . imagine if someone was bashing biology yet what they where bashing wasn't biology at all they never researched it and came up with thoughts in their head and called it biology to bash. its called a strawman fallacy.

  176. Janeen Clark

    tvp is like evolution and deniers are the young earth creationists.

  177. Janeen Clark

    they holding onto capitalism like a religion never to be questioned ignoring the domination and enslavement its created. tvp like evolution of species is all based on fact, there is not one songle area anyone can point at and specifically say "in regard to X tvp or a rbe is not based on factual information because of Z" if you think you can do this very thing and lets have a productive convo but you actually cannot because you have never researched tvp to know what it actually is! lolololol

  178. dmxi

    why debate if you constantly debate yourself?....besides of your 'immunity' to fallacies?

  179. Fabien L'Amour

    We get it, you love TVP and RBE. I am unsure the way you hog the forum constantly replying to yourself really helps promote the idea though. Labeling deniers as uneducated and young earth creationists certainly doesn't entice them to further research the topic either.

    Maybe you could pass the torch to someone actually involved with the project so we can get answers as what their plan is? With such a love of TVP, maybe you know someone involved in it?

  180. Pete

    Like your comments Janeen, you're a good person who gets it. You carry on as long as you want trying to convince those who just wont change - YET (maybe when it's too late they might). People like 'DigiWongaDude' will argue and try to debunk for the sake of their ego (another huge problem in our culture). He makes some goods points, is obviously educated and intelligent but his thinking will always be based within the box of this current system. Personally I used to really believe in TVP and still do but circumstances in my life (like so many others) has made me give up trying to convince the ignorant any more. I'm sick of struggling and all the bs. I've come round to the George Carlin way of thinking that we are doomed and the sooner the better, the hole goes too deep and as the video demonstrates, the 1% - they are not going to let things change any time soon.That's why TVP can't do much more than they are already, just hope for the ignorant masses to wake up. Any way I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone, you know what is right and the world today is very wrong.

  181. Metta

    We need to try SOMETHING. As others point out, this does not give the most clear and concise blueprint. Whether it is 'worth' it to put in the work that it would require? I say... Whats the worst that can happen? More people dying and starving... ????

  182. friend

    I've thought about this a lot. There is only one way of bringing a RBE to the world. We start by investment - into the poorest community, we spend money on self sustaining technology and build something that works. It will take real cash to get started .. but, starting like this will be two things. 1: it will prove we can do it to the 85% of the population who need it. 2: it will spread, like wildfire into neighbouring countries and communities, getting stronger every second. There will become a point, in the very near future when the old capitalistic ways will seem so primitive we will laugh at our stupidity. This WILL happen. It is a question of time and I suppose the biggest question of them all will be a personal one. Are you ready?

  183. Janeen Clark

    ive never stopped someone involved in it from commenting or doing anything , what makes you assume that? i never labeled deniers as uneducated thats your assumption again. im not trying to entice anyone either it is another assumption that doesnt hold up when you know what the system is. the bigger question is why are you commenting so much on a topic foreign to you that you have no knowledge about ?

  184. Janeen Clark

    i cannot understand this particular arrangement of words and the information contained within it sir

  185. Janeen Clark

    if you learn about tvp and a rbe you will find out its each human that has to make it happen not them its not the kind of system where a group takes over and everyone just follows it. its a system where every human is their own leader but we all work together with co-operation and design a society for human beings, life the planet and respect for all these things while using the scientific method the better the world where ever applicable which is most areas.

  186. Janeen Clark

    i dont debate that is some type of ego contest for primitive humans. i discuss inportant life changing issues related to freedom and ending our current trend of heading toward extinction.

  187. Janeen Clark

    this is meant literally the same way of thinking used by creationists is used by tvp deniers exactly.

  188. Janeen Clark

    imagine for a moment removing any names and associations from this particular discussion. imagine simply removing money as a barrier between humans and the things they need, removing any obsolete structures that accomplish nothing but human domination . say we remove money as a barrier and people access what they need directly with no reward or punishment. next we remove politics government police laws and restrictions. next we take a look at models of efficiency related to manufacturing and distribution , we optimize by first combing all individual companies and industry from previous world into working together in a identical fields. we remove copyrights and property so anyone can help improve a design or product if they can show with science and blueprints etc. a superior model (working in large groups of people in each field instead of competing. we create a internet of global resources with real time monitoring. and then take all these subsets into work redesigning the world with everyones direct contributions and everyone that has a good idea has a right to say. we all directly create the world we want with no obstacles. who could argue this new system? who could possibly deny it unless misunderstanding it? who could argue with it or be against it? with what justification?

  189. Fabien L'Amour

    I've seen their videos and examined their website. There is a major lack of explanation how they will re-engineer the current society to their RBE society. I've read all your comments and you didn't provide a transitional plan either so I am still in the dark on transition.

    Even Peter Joseph in an interview on TYT evaded explaining how the transition would be realized. Without a detailed transition plan, how can TVP expect anyone to take them seriously except for hardcore believers that don't ask questions?

    Precedent transitions to "better world societies" like Communism and National socialism had serious purges and limited the rights of citizens. You can't tell people it will be different this time without providing a concise point by point realist transition plan that provides safeguards for dissidents.

  190. Fabien L'Amour

    Removing politics, government, police, laws and restrictions will certainly provide millions if not billions of opponents.

  191. Sportsbruh

    187 comments in 4 days, yet Top Documentary moderators have yet to show a single post; figures, this site is getting more and more co-opted;

    (comes back to edit post)

    So, I just viewed "The Choice is Ours" 10 stars!!!!!

    The TRUTH does not get any better than this;

  192. Fabien L'Amour

    115 of those comments came from 1 person.

  193. ZeissIkon

    Another excellent point.
    It seems to me that the tendency with most of these well meaning, grand ideas is that they wind up relying on changes to occur at the pace of a revolution, but let's face it, political revolutions don't have the best track record when it comes to human suffering.
    I suspect the people involved are naturally impatient to see things happening in their lifetime, but when we look around us, most people aren't ready for such drastic change. At the risk of sounding like a Menshevik (in case anyone's wondering, I am not a Marxist), the current economic climate must change first, with the nuts and bolts issues that plague us, such as wealth disparity and affordable housing, being redressed in a sensible manner, before most people will have the time or inclination to broaden their horizons beyond the rat race.

    Chances are, if we got cracking right now with some carefully applied economic and political reform, there's a possibility that our children's children might be sufficiently enlightened to pursue the whole utopian dream, but we'll almost certainly be dead before anyone has worked out precisely what that dream is.

    As I often say, what we need is a reformation and not a revolution.

  194. Fabien L'Amour

    Sounds like a decent idea but what happens if a Boko Haram or ISIS type organisation decides to take control of it to further their own vision of the world?

  195. Janeen Clark

    with what justification? if they had to provide information as to why it makes sense to have them and evidence what could they possibly show?

  196. Janeen Clark

    here's evidence to show why NOT to have them. we can trace back through history , lets say just in the u.s. the entire history of government and money, what have these systems done to accomplish anything? nothing. if we trace back even further say 3k years. and look at how those systems where then and now? identical nothing has changed. and if we look at our lives now and peoples lives then? massive difference right? we are not living in huts with rags. it is manufacturing and distribution that have increased our quality of life, money is a pretend barrier in between getting what you need that has no scientific evidence of really existing it is a human construct that accomplished nothing but negativity suffering poverty on mass scale.

  197. Fabien L'Amour

    Differences in homicides, rapes and other violent crimes statistics per capita between a country with operating laws, police and government and a failed state without them.

  198. Janeen Clark

    if you look at the rules of the money game. it funnels wealth to the top 1 percent. that is the rules of money, not some artifact of it. government . government is no for the people it never has done anything for anything but itself .the publlic are the enemy of government .gov cars about itself only that is why the rotating door of individuals has done nothing in the last 3000 years. the evidence is all there. research it. all we have to do is remove these things. corporations have done nothing but dehumanize human beings. we are consumers to manipulate and lie to and rob money for their chairman. these systems are obsolete they make no sense and cannot justify themselves in any way as to why should they continue to exist. they have to prove themselves if they cannot they will be removed. they are tools so some humans can dominate other humans. why should domination exist? it is lower intelligence. science tells us domination is ignorant. animals dominate each other because they dont have as advanced of a brain as we do we have no excuse we have whole centers of the brain for co-operation and collaborate and caring that have to be not used when domination takes place, if you look at a sociopath's brain in a mri machine they are not using parts of the brain while exhibiting that behavior this means they are less intelligent than someone using more of their brain to process. now, why would we want a entire system in place where just to floow the rules of it you have to shut down portions of your brain? no justification except to just ignore it and not question it which is again shutting down portions of the brain. science has shown us the human brain is the most precious thing we know of in the universe we need to have our systems reflect that have people as intelligent as possible as they want to be have access to free education and everything else to better that person all people.

  199. Fabien L'Amour

    Money is only a mean of exchange, the negativity, suffering, poverty stems from humans behaviors, not the existence of money.

    Unless you find a way to change the human psyche on a global scale to remove humans desire for power and control, it's highly questionable any utopian global philosophy can be implemented.

    And even then, sociopaths and psychopaths will not cease to exist so some mean of preventing them to subvert your society will need to exist.

  200. Janeen Clark

    that might hold up if you where modeling your new design off that other one but obviously we wouldn't so its an argument that does not hold up because its talking about something entirely different.

  201. Janeen Clark

    the justification you would have to have, would need to deal specifically with the context we are referring to its its minute detail not some other circumstance with different structures situations and factors.

  202. Janeen Clark

    you cant just say those words you have to back it up with evidence. the claim that money is just exchange is a large one with no evidence anywhere not even one example in reality to support that. why are 1 percent owning everything if just exchange? why do the rules funnel to the wealthy? why are people wages not equal to effort put in if just exchange? (the people work hardest get paid the least.) there's 2 to start with these would be entirely different if it was exchange.

  203. Janeen Clark

    why do the wealthier your get the more you control the laws the rules in soceity if just exchange? why would any domination be possible? why would it be even possible to make money off other money without doing anything else? (thats the most profit there is!) none of these would be even possible if money was exchange.

  204. Janeen Clark

    a utopian philosophy exists NOW money is utopian there has never been evidence that it is REAL it is an idea that is utopia .

  205. Janeen Clark

    there has never been any evidence that the human psyche as you put it has greed, power control. those things however HAVE been proven to be the very rules of money and government there is no way to NOT have them in these operations.this also would not be possible if money was exchange

  206. Janeen Clark

    its good to think about these things. but really its going to take first most the world population to want it, next in the fields that matter those people that work in them whether science, manufacturing, etc. start making shifts tward that direction so people can see the benefits. any system currently that provide free access to people is showing the difference between having to buy everything and having free access. of course TVP and TZM can do nothing to make a RBE real. they have and are doing their part getting it out there. because a RBE involves all people doing it themselves that what it takes. now chances are many people need to see this world fall aprt from capitalism money and government and see positively we are going extinct to over come the brainwashing they have had this is sad and terrible because there is no garrontee we can come back from that but its been so ingrained in lot people they have to see money collapse as it is starting to and they have to see tough smell taste and feel the reality of what money and government really is which will happen sooner or later. again probably will NOT be able to turn it around by that time but there will be a massive effort at least to prevent humanity form going extinct once every human knows it as fact.

  207. Fabien L'Amour

    These are functions of capitalism, not money. The problem is with interest and debt, money can be any representation of value.

  208. Fabien L'Amour

    Government is evidence of control but human psyche doesn't have it? Humans created government, it makes no sense whatsoever to think that goverment wasn't created by humans in need of control.

  209. Fabien L'Amour

    We seem to have different definitions of utopia.
    Here is mine for clarification :
    An imagined place or state of things in which everything is perfect.

  210. Fabien L'Amour

    Minutes details aren't provided so no comparison is possible at present. The TVP, RBE idea needs serious overhauling and description for most to even consider it as an alternative. We understand why it is proposed, the question is how can it be realized.

  211. Fabien L'Amour

    The rules of capitalism funnel the wealth, not the rules of money.

  212. Suzy Spellcheck

    it's not up to me to do anything to enrich anyones life other than my own if I so choose. I am under no moral, political or any other obligation to do so.
    you cannot place any burden on my to do anything as I have made no claims of anything needing done other than to suggest you are following a proven con man and have no understanding of the scientific method or the common methods used by conmen and cult leaders.

    BUT I digress and did try to personally enrich jockos life by sending him a free
    sample of depends and a mormon bible. sent them straight to his
    playground in florida, phone number for the mormons included.
    I also served in the military so go screw yourself you insulant twatwaffle

  213. Janeen Clark

    thanks for your kind words, i understand where you coming from, i have lost both my parents in the last couple years and lost almost all that is dear to me and i feel like sometimes its difficult not to give up but my whole life i have looked around and wondered why these things are like this while at the same time in the last 20 years have seen change in the general consensus as well as peoples perspectives and knowledge in general for the positive . i have spent much time with my own specific thought and thinking methodology of evaluation of thoughts an language used this has helped my in those difficult times as well. it is humanities natural evolution to become more advanced more free less dominated and less controlled. now fort the first time people can have a hundred dollar laptop and hours a day research any topic that exists to further understand reality and the benefits that come with that on their own path of advancement. so even though the negative things relating to domination like the systems in the world are so strong when people are ready 7 billion people are going to grow out of it and if it is to a world too late to save at least they will love and respect another and work hard to salvage any little fragment of hope possible to save us.

  214. Fabien L'Amour

    Intelligence can be used for good or evil without discrimination. Putting your faith in pure intelligence can prove catastrophic either human or artificial.

  215. Pete

    Isn't it unbelievable Janeen, that we have to suffer for our eyes to be opened! I've always felt different to most and questioned why is life like this, never done what I was told to by people who think they have this divine right of power over you, ie at work, the bs you have to put up with! My eyes were truly opened 3 years ago when I was first made redundant, got so fed up looking for work and worrying about money, I found TVP, it helped me, got used to living with nothing, I became a better person for a while, then had no choice but to take the first job that came along, hated it, got back in a rut, found another job, made redundant again, took another terrible job, now I'm out of work, starting to use my brain again and feeling better, until I become a wage slave again. that is!
    Someone said to me the other day to just walk into every company in my area, more or less begging for a job, something that I don't want any way but have little choice, he also said, you never know, someone may have died! Honestly, the way people think, it's just, well, think you know what I'm getting at...
    I lost my dad 5 years ago, and watched him spend the last years of his life not only in ill health but completely stressed out with debt worries.
    My point is to those people arguing against your comments - money corrupts everything, including your soul.These people question the proposals of an RBE, Why? Don't they want a better world?
    Transition is a point brought up a lot, this is part of the transition, it is down to us all. It's really about the human race growing up, evolving as you say. Will we evolve or will ignorance win?
    I love your optimism and the way you articulate your point, such a pity that so many are just content with their own ego, or maybe have not suffered enough for their eyes to be opened..
    Just imagine how we could all use our brains in an RBE...

  216. Janeen Clark

    yes they are provided there are hundreds and hundreds of hours of videos in detail there are books and books full websites full it would take at least 5 years for the average person to cover all the minute detail just to know what tvp really is.the question is why are you here acting like your against it when you haven't covered any of this important detail?

  217. Janeen Clark

    yes way back then when it was created and it hasn't changed at all in 3k years .the important thing to note is that the rules of the very game of government and money are domination control, so are we surprised to see that in people when they are forced to behave this way when its the rules they are supposed to follow?

  218. Janeen Clark

    nope sounds right to me. thats exactly what we have now, rbe and tvp are opposite they constantly change and are updated to the latest evidence and understanding.

  219. Janeen Clark

    is a laptop designer a "utopian" because they try to not have erros in their tech when they constantly upade every 6 months? no that's just trying to make a better design. why is government and money identical for thousands of years with no change no updating? next money has no real connection reality to what is it dosent connect to human effort at all it does not connect to real resources at all it does not

    connect to what is needed by people, it does not connect with the damage to the environment it causes. perpetual growth is a utopia.

  220. Janeen Clark

    a human dominates and controls when they are taught that by everything around them from school, to college, vocational school, work, jobs and career it is all built into everyone of these systems.

  221. Janeen Clark

    here is evidence look at schools why are they not teaching people what is most important to every human being? how the mind and body works the mandatory needs every healthy human has to be fulfilled, they not taught about reality and most important things for their life and how things work, instead they are taught to be a consumer and a employer/employee and business owner. that is why supporters of tvp talk about education we mean that word by its definition. in the current world people cannot be educated because they would not go along with money and government. people are taught to be consumers , think about that it goes directly hand and hand with "greed" "power" "jealously" those things built into being a consumer by definition along with a business owner and employer employee.

  222. Janeen Clark

    take "greed" in this world its called being an entrepreneur. its business savvy and something people look up to. take jealousy , being a good consumer means your constantly buying things so you see something someone else has and you envy and are jealous because your taught to be a consumer . take power we are taught to obey people with power we are taught they are higher than other people and sucess means power in a money type world so are we surprised? people are not only taught all these things they are not even taught an alternative to them, peopl ethink its their only option unless they self educate .

  223. Fabien L'Amour

    Why are you here not providing the details if you know of these 5 years worth of stuff when we ask questions? (number which I really doubt is true by the way)

    If you had read those supposed books, you could tell us what the plan is.

  224. Janeen Clark

    i said it before how could i possibly in a small comment box write to you books and books worth of information? that's nuts to even ask. do you expect someone to do that with you with neuroscience if your asking about that topic? or are you supposed to go learn about it yourself?

  225. Janeen Clark

    in any other area or discipline in the world it is your responsibly to research a topic if you want to dive into a discussion about it especially when it is extremely detailed.

  226. Janeen Clark

    next there wasn't a question i didn't answer if you have one ask it.

  227. Fabien L'Amour

    Ok, so we need to read your 130 comments saying how it's wonderful but come up empty of knowledge of how it will be done. Thanks, I'll stop reading. Take care and don't fill too many small comment boxes with useless information.

  228. Janeen Clark

    you supposed to know what something is if you want to be against it otherwise your only against your idea of what it is that idea was never proposed to begin with.

  229. Fabien L'Amour

    I am not against, I am trying to extract information from you as to how it will be implemented but you won't provide any.
    I am done.

  230. Janeen Clark

    i dont even know what information you have contained within that comment thee only thing i can pull out is some type of anger and punishment towards me with language but i dont see how that is relevant to this particular conversion.

  231. Janeen Clark

    so because you haven't gone and researched tvp but come here and bash it that's my fault somehow?

  232. Janeen Clark

    every other human has to spend thousands of hours going through the research but your just too good for that and i'm expected to do that for you so we can chat in a comment box about how your against something you have no idea about?

  233. Janeen Clark

    well please be specific so i can be better help. pick a specific area your curious about.

  234. Fabien L'Amour

    No you don't, I now understand you don't want to provide information apart that's it's the best system ever invented and will not pursue the conversation.

  235. Janeen Clark

    sorry, if you have some questions i would like to try and help.

  236. Janeen Clark

    i have.

  237. Janeen Clark

    i never said anything close to that sir, where did you come up with that? it doesn't matter please talk about a specific area if you want more detail about something.

  238. Janeen Clark

    there is no shortcut for going through the entire system in full detail through research but if you have a specific question i can give you specific answer if you have a broad generalized question i can give a broad generalized answer.

  239. Janeen Clark

    how it will be done is very detailed but if there is a area your referring to then i can help.

  240. Janeen Clark

    its like imagine if someone went to a neuroscientist and said "so how does the brain work?" see where im getting at?

  241. Janeen Clark

    i did answer the broad questions with broad answers if you have a detailed question i can give a detailed answer for you.

  242. Janeen Clark

    what part of the plan would you like to know about specifically?

  243. Janeen Clark

    thats a large statement please what evidence do you have to support it because i know of thousands of evidence that says opposite.

  244. Janeen Clark

    money in any form has evolved to what we have today because corruption id built in the design of money and cannot be removed, any form of barter trade or money is extortion.

  245. Janeen Clark

    intelligence means understanding all details in a situation. good or evil (which do not exist they are words we use) evil is a lack of knowledge.

  246. Janeen Clark

    see you never asked "how will manufacturing work in rbe? or how does distribution work or "what is the general consensus of morality in a rbe? or what are the main concerns regarding humans and the environment? or how does a rbe deal with designing goods for people and get them to them? or hows does a rbe deal with livinjg situations? or how does a rbe deal with designs of citys? or how does a rbe deal with food? or how does a rbe monitor resources of the planet? or how does a rbe teach children and what content? or how does a rbe design structures and how partakes? or how does a rbe get information out to peopl about new goods they can have? or what type of system of efficiency doe s a rbe use ? i could go on and on thats asking questions.

  247. Janeen Clark

    you never asked "are there restrictions for people ina rbe? what kind of life will people have? what areas and fileds do people work in? what options are available to people that want to go on vacation? how much time can people spend with their children? how often can people move to different homes? what type of transportation will exist?

  248. Janeen Clark

    you never asked "does a rbe have something like police? and what would be different if not compared to thjis world? how do people go toi college for something? how are people chosen to do what type of work? do people get paid at work? do people have something like money? is there punishment and reward in a rbe? what are the main goals of a rbe? this is asking questions.

  249. Janeen Clark

    you never asked "how does a rbe know what customs and traditions to get rid of or not? wil arbe have religion? will a rbe allow people to take drugs? what about crime in a rbe? or "what things do people learn about in school in a rbe? what are the main differences between a rbe and communism capitalism and the rest? "how would a rbe be successful? "are there ways it could possibly turn into a dictatorship? this is asking questions.

  250. over the edge

    Because you do not answer questions. When thay are asked you question the education of others. You have avoided all but one question directed at you. The only question you answered is that RBE is doomed unless everyone buys in.

  251. Janeen Clark

    ask your questions

  252. Janeen Clark

    see what questions are here? how can i answer this comment?

  253. Janeen Clark

    im sorry if i missed any would you like to ask some right here?

  254. Janeen Clark

    domination and control can be broken all the way down to a thought process of interacting with others there are two options in this regard A. co-operation or collaboration or B. Domination ,force now when you account for all variables domination is a poor choice and will always lead to poorer results. here a few things that fall out of it there is always retaliation, resentment and reconciliation. so it can be said with certainty in any area where one of these methodologies must be chosen (interaction with others) that domination and force are a less intelligent way of thinking and actions because all variables where not considered and the negative drawbacks like revenge for example where not considered.

  255. Janeen Clark

    a rbe is the furthest thing from utopia it is far from perfect . trying to fix problems that are serious and effect life for all of us isnt creating perfection its just improving with the best we know of and constantly adapting when new correct information pertaining to it comes in.we can look at our modern world and see where things could have been worse if any improvement wasn't done because it was thought as utopian.

  256. Janeen Clark

    any time your thinking or making decisions with

    all variables in mind that's intelligence and good will come out . its when all the variables are not accounted for in a interaction things go wrong it is not random. like a choice of A. co-operation or B. domination can be thought of as good and evil ,anything evil has missing information less intelligence not a whole picture not understanding things etc. as far as faith is concerned it should be replaced entirely with hope. and that hope is based on reality and how reality is known to actually work.

  257. Janeen Clark

    this is confusing because you bring up questions but you dont ask a specific one here instead your using language to say im doing certain things wrong. but what if you actually bring up the questions that ares o important to you? would that zero in on your concerns?

  258. Janeen Clark

    so we can look at your choice of a comment and if we broke into 2 options A> answer like you did using punishment through language or B. asked the specific questions pertaining to the topic and zero in on letting me know which questions are more serious to you.
    next if we account for all the details between these two choices and go to choose one ,which is the most intelligent option? which is the option that will better meet your needs? (the one asking it)

  259. Janeen Clark

    this would be the same for any human being in this situation (there may be more choices depending on the situation as well. but in this particular one it is a decision inside the thought process to either make your comment based directly off the information in the topic , or to vaguely use language to describe what is right or wrong about something.

  260. Janeen Clark

    now if we take your choice of comment and look at my possible answers to it, how can i answer in a way that directly meets the needs you have pertaining to the topic?

  261. Janeen Clark

    this applies to all humans thought process methodology before they speak or comment or action etc. now if a human makes a choice to not speak directly about specific information, its not about good or bad its about he or she is limiting the type of return responses possible because if a comment is asked directly about something specific the person answering knows exactly what the question is about, if instead language is used to vaguely associate punishment through language or a vague question with no clear cut information contained within , the responded has no clear way of knowing exactly what the questioner is referring to.this leads to confusion in the communication process.

  262. Janeen Clark

    next if the individual asking the question presupposes information contained within the question that does not match up with the information related to what is being asked about in the way they assume their answer will most likely be unsatisfactory in their mind because they have pre-decided an answer a head of time without examining the full detail related to the topic and assumptions made within the question itself.

  263. Janeen Clark

    this is what we see when a question is asked about say jealousy or envy or violence within the context of a rbe. first the person asking the question is making assumptions about jealousy envy or violence that may come from word of mouth or their family or just hearing sayings it could also be from portrayals in films television and popular culture . so the person has actually answered their own question because it is actually a statement in the form of a question that pre supposes the answer. if we re structure- their question into a statement . it may look like "with my experience with human jealousy what i have been told about it and conclusions i draw about how it works, i see no reconciliation between this human experience and the proposals of tvp or a rbe." now as a response to this is difficult because even though your making no judgments of the questioner you have no choice to answer something along the lines of "if you research all available material related to human behavior and emotion along with the inner details of the current system you will find first jealousy is not random it happens for a reason next in the current system jealous has to exist as a part of consumerism and is embedded into commercials and popular culture the more people are jealous the more they will buy, next when you go back to the aspect of there is always a reason why someone could and does get jealous you will find they are not having all their needs fulfilled (if the jealousy is not just the consumer created kind from popular culture and commercials to buy things) what jealousy actually is a thought process recognizing the person is missing something they need and in return they feel that emotion based on the thought itself they had about missing something they require. and finally tvp and a rbe specifically is built as the rules of the game so to speak to meet human needs as the number one priority every human being alive with have opportunities to meet all of their manidority needs that if not met could possibly turn into jealousy . now for this to actually work all knowledge of human behavior must be understood along with how systems could meet needs. then finally the specific technical details would be carried out by people that choose to specialize throughout the entire process. whether it be manufacturing distribution computer systems engineering agriculture etc.

  264. Janeen Clark

    now, you had a question related to "what if person has an experiment that needs to use the entire power of the system?" along those lines right? so we have to start off with the issues of the question first how one single person possibly be working on a legit thing in isolation that would actually need to use that much power? in a rbe hundreds or thousands of individuals would be working together on a legit issue like that . so it would not be legit if only one person was working on it in isolation. people would not work on anything serous in isolation because it is not a competition based system it is a co-operation based system. so if you wanted to re-frame the question to" if that large group of people needed to use the entire power of the system" we would need to zero in on the details and how that would really work , you would have many people in the group dealing with the efficiency aspect of the project and combing over possibilities of getting the power requirements as low as possible because at all times consideration of the rbe systems already in place would exist by this group and they would also be in direct communication with subset groups that deal with the power and the engineering, these groups would discuss the options at hand and how the option of reverting all this power temporarily would effect life of the population and if its drawbacks would be a viable option or not. they would discuss any dangers along with viable alternatives that solve the same initial problem to begin with and there may be an alternative that does not use so much power in the end they would cover all the details options and the consequences and efficiencies of each option before making the decision out of them that is most viable which would heavily depend on the specific circumstances involved in this scenereo

  265. over the edge

    So contrary to previous claims. These groups do control who gets access to resources. There are some who are in control. They decide right and wrong.

    So RBE does the opposite of what it claims. while i do agree with the decision process you lay out TVP disagrees

  266. over the edge

    already did. After much tooth pulling I got something that resembles an answer to a second of my multiple questions

  267. Janeen Clark

    no, not at all these groups mean people that work in different fields they are passionate about some love engineering and want to work there some love computer system and want to contribute there etc. its too complex to have one person doing every separate discipline that's just reality no one person or group could ever take over because it is volunteers doing all this and all the other people would see the red flags if a group tried anything.you have to remember nothing is hidden from anyone everyone would see on the computer systems something being done wrong or people would physicality see this supposed group of people carrying out odd domination based actions and all people would stop what they doing temporarily and deal with that particular situation however that may be. but in order for that group to choose domination as a thought process over co-operation a lot of information about reality would have been forgotten and it seems very unlikely nearly impossible.

  268. Janeen Clark

    you see from an early age children will be taught in school about their thought process, and how when thinking about human interaction you have 2 options either co-operation or domination. now co-operation leads to better results in any circumstance over domination all humans will be shown and taught the evidence of this early on the behavior would seem very primitive and peculiar and impossible to exist because domination only is chosen as a methodology when information is not taken into account by the individual.

  269. over the edge

    my answer has nothing to do with "domination" but control. In the scenario you provided I did not read in malice or domination. But a group that reasonibly decides what is best for all. But the decision making is still control. No matter what they decide someone (or group of people) will disagree with the decision. Therfore there is a group making desisions that affect the whole

  270. Janeen Clark

    and that thought process is one regarding interaction with humans or other systems. when you take into account all the detail sand possibilities of human interaction domination is the poorest choice. people only do this when they know none of this.

  271. Janeen Clark

    nobody reasonably decides whats best for all they decide whats best for the area they work in specifically WHILE conferencing every other group that deals with every other discipline and area of work etc. like an internet conference open to all anyone can chime in if they are not already in the video conference etc.

  272. Janeen Clark

    so say a person does not work in a specific are or discipline but want to communicate with the people they can and even see all the blueprints systems information etc. if they have evidence to show an improvement everbody meets u pt o go through it and weigh it out.

  273. over the edge

    I will agree with the "internet conference" for the sake of the discussion. But if everyone chimes in nothing will ever get decided. this approach has two outcomes that I see (if there is more please point them out) Over 7 billion people voicing their opinion (regardless of knowledge of topic) on every decision will lead to nothing getting done in anything that resembles a timely manner. Or two decisions will be made for others (see control)

  274. Janeen Clark

    well you have to remember instead of say 10 cables companies all them people would deal with cable etc. there's many many more experts all working together so more time can be spent on an opens system. next most people will probably not want to be focused on 50 disciplines they have their few and they spend their time going on vacation or with family they do what they the most passionate about they don't deal with the systems say mechanics if they don't care a lot about mechanics there are so many more options open to human beings

  275. over the edge

    So people will have others making the decisions for them. They will go on living their lives only voicing their opinion on those subjects that interest them. Leaving the other decisions to others. So no different than what we have today

  276. Janeen Clark

    put it this way people are not forced to actively be involved in projects they don't want to spend their time on. if they do they can and will spend their time on it with no restrictions .so its only out of peoples choice to not actively be involved in every aspect of certain fields they wont so in those areas they don't want o be involved in in any way they leave the decisions to the thousands that do.

  277. Janeen Clark

    "people having decisions made for them, "
    meaning that person chooses to not be involved with every bridge built or stereo system o laptop made or building constructed or road built or book written or lecture organization or film produced or concert etc.

  278. Janeen Clark

    in this current world there is only a illusion of choice in a rbe there is actual choice

  279. Janeen Clark

    lets say someone wanted to be apart of every single system in a quarter mile radius of their home have access to every blue print all the systems the people and their jobs and understand it all and contribute with knowledge in any area they could do that.

  280. Pete

    On the transition point people, the honest answer can only be that TVP or no one knows how to do this yet.
    I'll try to explain my thoughts on this, and to re-iterate some of the excellent points made by Janeen, I'm not all that academic so bare with me - how do we get there?
    The first step of transition is this, awareness, waking people up, with a solution as the end goal, videos like this, or TZM, the wisdom of great minds from past and present, what can be achieved with the most efficient use of technology, discussions on this site and others, more and more people coming together and realising the possibility or the concept of RBE.
    So, what then, what do we do? Well firstly, I'd like to point out that our current system has never really been explained, has it?
    Hell, if we can't explain how things work now (or not work very well), then how can we explain transitioning into a system that would be completely new to us?
    How do we get from A to B. Well, there are so many problems today and we are so divided across the world that thinking of getting from A-B is impossible, more like A-Z.
    We are not going into an RBE just like that, we have a long way to go and many steps to overcome.
    It would have to come from the governments of the world, after the concept is out there. TVP and us supporters are trying to do this, we need masses of people demanding it - AWARENESS.
    So, lets call this step A, if and when achieved, now over to everyone who wants to get involved and contribute (which would probably be second nature to all, once we're actually in or on our way to an RBE - in my opinion).
    Now, using the media, all the knowledge we have, the best people (scientists & engineers), the best technology, we work on a plan of achieving the next steps.
    This can't be answered here and now, will take research, lots of work and programming, arriving at the right decision by the qualified people in their particular fields.
    it will take many years I would imagine until we are finally ready for the final step into RBE, or dare I say, an actual civilised society.
    Phasing out the use of money, etc along the way, every step is arrived at using scientific method, not biased opinion.
    Example of how the best minds can implement something that they had no idea of - how about The Manhattan Project!
    So after all the problems are overcome and we reach the final step, there will still be many problems in the world to work on because, this is important -
    IT IS NOT A UTOPIA - it is an emerging society, not established, that continually improves. Utopia as so many like to throw out there to debunk is impossible, you see there's this universal law that could not allow it - NATURE.
    It may take many generations for us to completely rid ourselves of the deep rooted, selfish ignorance we live in today, maybe many people will be be unable/unwilling to adjust, but how would that be different from the bs we deal with today?
    Somehow though, I believe that when money no longer exists, then most people (if not all) will think very differently indeed.
    Those that don't will be helped to the best of our scientific ability, not be killed as others throw out there, again to debunk.
    If anything, to keep this current system going, we should be more worried what might happen than transitioning to RBE!
    To those born in an RBE, they would be properly educated, guided, with all needs met, with true freedom, with individual potential recognised, with real goals to aim for, told about our failings of the past, told the truth, not have the truth pulled over our eyes like we have today.
    Is this not worth the struggle to get there?
    Step A first though, then we talk about real transition, then maybe all the other steps might not be as difficult as many of you question, maybe with government, media and the majority on board,
    the next steps will become easier and easier as time goes on, maybe we would realise that truly working together is the way forward.
    Personally I am not very optimistic of even getting past step A, so messed up is this world, our primitive thinking will probably endure, but I can hope...
    Maybe this hope is delusional, maybe to hope for a better world is too much to realise, or maybe it's more delusional to oppose TVP and defend the status quo, to keep this cancerous system going -
    or maybe, just maybe TVP is the way forward, but that is down to humanity as a whole.
    In short, transition can only happen with awareness.
    Or as I fear, business as usual will carry on to the bitter end.
    As the video entitles - The Choice is Ours...
    Thanks Janeen, you have inspired me.

  281. Janeen Clark

    sorry bou that if it wasnt to your liking.

  282. Janeen Clark

    if you think about type of domination control restrictions we know about today those will not even be possible because it is an open source type system with thousands in each field instead of thousands spread out into companies competing like today. i think the difficult thing is to wrap your head around the idea of getting rid of corruption. we see it like we do today because it is the rules of the very systems today .meaning the purpose of money and gov IS domiantion and control.; its the foundation . and its easy to see when you examine in detail how these things are operated . its easy to design a system where they are not the rules of the system, and the behavior is not even possible.

  283. over the edge

    Please stop spamming the thread. I made one short comment. I come back an hour later to find 15 (at least) responses to my comment stating the same thing over and over. I will be deleting your repeat posts.

  284. Janeen Clark

    excuse me? your plain wrong sir wrong.

  285. Janeen Clark

    i never repeated anything they were different circumstances and situations.

  286. Janeen Clark

    i spend all this time trying to address your concerns and you behave this way? spamming? i am the only one actually talking about the topic at hand and trying htolp you you should be ashamed of yourself sir.

  287. over the edge

    No. You are spamming. In an attempt to control the thread. I will now walk away only responding to posts that violate the comment policy

  288. Janeen Clark

    well i am sorry then.

  289. Janeen Clark

    its odd you use language that out of your choices to comment that you choose that configuration of words instead of "i have this X question.)

  290. dewflirt

    Resource based economy - economy based on resources. If you swap services and products for services and products, you are trading, bartering and using those things in place of cash. Products and services will come to have values. Might as well have cash, fits in your pockets more easily.

  291. dewflirt

    They have spent an awful lot of time and money proving that their project doesn't work, even on a small scale. You're right about the whining, pretty dim view of humanity. Makes you wonder how they could possibly think that we selfish, greedy, faulty little things could ever achieve anything like TVP ;)

  292. dewflirt

    Oh, okay. So while this thing gets started a select few will dominate/teach our children to become so cooperative that they are basically submissive, then the new powers that be (the Venus dreamers) will tell them how best to live in their strange, sterile, stepford community. No thanks.

  293. Pete

    I'll try to re-assure you, I would suggest input from children to contribute ideas for the type of world they would like to live in, after all their minds, spirit and imagination
    have not yet been crushed by the current system, I was once a child, unless you're not human I'm assuming you were too, have you grown into a wonderfully fulfilling life or are you like me, a wage slave to a meaningless job, actually I'm not working at the moment, here to try to stimulate my mind, taking a break from job/slavery hunting, which is really waring me down but I need to be able to survive and have some privileges in my life.In RBE children will realise their full potential and have none of the stress most of us deal with today, not to mention the endless brainwashing from tv, etc, being we told we must have things that we don't really need, we are all submissive today, children are the future, the only real hope humanity has, need them on board, could be a great part of transition process to have children involved as much as possible, what do you think?

  294. dewflirt

    Part of me loves the idea that we should borrow from the wild joys of uninhibited youth, the other strays to Lord of the Flies :)

  295. Pete

    You raise a good example of why people need be to taken out of the equation when it comes to decision making, in this book, if they had say proper education and the right values from birth (hence RBE), rather than the distorted view of growing up in our current system, maybe the outcome would be very different, even without technology, access to needs and facilities to nurture the human spirit. We don't need leaders in a civilised society, we'll need them to get us there along with ideas, creativity, and a scientifically sound method to arrive at decisions from anyone/everyone willing and able, children included.
    You fear the the unknown, when you should welcome it, fear today by all means, there is a lot to worry about. Open your mind, really take it in what TVP are suggesting, look around you. The world is broken and needs to be fixed so we all can prosper. It is about evolution, which we need to embrace and raise awareness.

  296. dewflirt

    You can't take people out of the decision making process, not even if you build the world's best deciding machine. Anyway, if you take away a persons right to choose, you are attempting to remove a fundamental freedom. You know, the system might need some fixing, but most of the people living in it are really very lovely. I'm getting a bit annoyed that this keeps being forgotten in your (and janeens) haste to pack up and head for Venus. I don't need someone else's vision of dull harmony as a guide to raising my girls, we've muddled through in the way that most people do, they might not be perfect but I would be worried if they were. If we didn't need leaders, we would never have appointed any. Any dip into history will show that we have allowed them, even some that we don't want, if only so that we have someone to blame when it all goes belly up. I have no fear of the unknown, what would that solve? I spent a good deal of my childhood in communes and I can tell you from experience that it doesn't work. As children, we had all sorts of fun but there was always a bubbling resentment amongst the adults over work sharing etc. Things that should have been said, weren't, for the sake of peace and cooperation, grievances were aired in a controlled, contrived manner, everything was settled by compromise. Compromise can be a right bugger when it's not in your favour. The world of humans is out of whack and probably won't balance any time soon, that's no reason to scrap everything and start again and that's not really the attitude to inspire future generations , just one to compound any misery that exists. As I said before, no thanks.

  297. Pete

    Why would we be swapping? In RBE most the services I guess you mean would no longer exist, the products are just things we need or want. Why use cash/money when we have the technology to grant us access? Why do we hoard so much stuff! Why does so much poverty and inequality exist? Why is there so much unforgivable waste and environmental destruction?

    This a system/value disorder, the point is we need to get away from the ideology of ownership, we need better values to reduce our wants, we need to manage resources scientifically and responsibly.

    .

  298. Pete

    I'll come back later to discuss more if you want, if not I'll respect that.
    I'm just about to go sell my soul to the job centre, tell them what I've been doing looking for the next wonderful job opportunity, have an interview on Wednesday, can't wait, sure it will give me that sense of freedom so I can continue to muddle through as you so rightly put it. And yes most people are lovely, that's why we all deserve so much better. The catch is, it is possible. Janeen and I and many others are only trying to open eyes.
    As for Venus, we might just turn our planet into that if we don't change our ways soon!

  299. dewflirt

    Look, if I watch your kids all week while you sit home and knit I'm going to be a bit miffed if all I get for it is pair of mittens! My time has value too.

  300. dewflirt

    Happy hunting Pete, catch you round ;)

  301. Janeen Clark

    my intention was to help you understand so, sorry if there was an issue there sir.

  302. Pete

    Ok, I'm back, wasn't a nice experience at job centre, so thought that would be a good place to begin my counter argument to your well put comment on choice/freedom, Having to do a job, finding work, dealing with corporate nonsense, generally unhappy at work, this had been my experience for many years, the same for most, agreed! But that's not to say others don't find fulfillment in their work as there are good jobs out there, however they are now few and further between,with a growing population and less jobs because of technology, how will people live in this system as time goes on? companies tighten their belt and automate.
    The jobs that remain, only the best will get, and companies will make it even harder to find and employ people, with more boxes to be ticked, more competition against one another, most jobs (not all) what do they do for your well being, your state of mind? speaking for myself, work gets to me, either stressful or incredibly mind numbing, submitting yourself to a form of dictatorship on a daily basis, following someone's rules, often being spoken to like a piece of sh.. I've always had a problem with people in authority, I can't stand being told what to do, yet we have little choice, and people think this is choice/freedom... granted I could be in a better position and maybe made more of my life, but I never knew what I wanted to do, still don't and not far off 40, this comes down to education. real education, there is no real direction for many of us, only educated well enough to do the work, not to question or think critically - that would not help the 1%, thier greed and control over us.
    I am sure you're wonderful and give your girls the best you can, don't you want a world where they could have the best possible chance of a fulfilling life, stable future, needs met, minds stimulated, freedom to go anywhere, pursue any dream without restriction?
    This is what RBE would do for people, wouldn't be perfect harmony as you say, where everyone is the same (that's fear/brainwashing talking), there'd be a lot more love and kindness towards one another, much more individuality in fact, sounds good to me, I don't have kids of my own but do have 2 lovely nieces, 1 of them now a teenager and getting into trouble behaving badly, kicked out of schools now, this
    is environment, it kills our spirit and creates stress beyond belief, we react, we're only human, do you ever get stressed around your girls? they pick up on this, before birth in fact, which as you develop can alter genes, contributing
    towards human behavior, no matter how good a parent someone may be you can't control the surrounding environment, goal of RBE is to create the best possible environment, sorry to go on and hope you're not offended, got loads more about choice/freedom but will leave it here for now, let me know if you don't want replies, please understand, my only agenda is raising awareness, what do I have to gain from that? I wont even be around to see rbe, if it ever happens, think about that, I just want to see humanity do better, will comment on decision making later.

  303. dewflirt

    My last job was as a cleaner, stuck my mobile number on trees and waited for someone to call. Had a full book within about three weeks. Quite liked it, got to pick my people and answered only to myself. I'm not too good with authority either, who is? Think I have my dad to thank for that, most defiant person I've ever known! Something he often said to us when we were little, if you don't like what you're doing, you're either doing it wrongly or you're doing something wrong. I see you're almost 40, I'm a couple of years older than you and started college again this year, hoping to go to uni when I'm done. You're never to old, go and see about access courses ;) What else? Oh, kids. They'll do, one is just finishing college (forensics) one about to start a diploma in biomedical sciences and the youngest still wants to be David Attenborough when she grows up. Who am I to argue? They live their own lives, I make sure they don't break themselves.
    Don't think you've offended me yet, wouldn't matter much if you did. I'd just let you know and then it's said and done, no worries ;)

  304. Pete

    I commend you, you have better resilience than me in dealing with the struggles of life and sounds like you have done an incredible job with your children, I wish the best for them, won't ramble on this time, I could about environment, your kids have a good one, clearly.

  305. dewflirt

    You okay yourself, for a Venusian ;))

  306. Pete

    Is that the term now 'Venusian' - labels you see, another problem with our culture,
    it is only about telling the truth as critically as I can, it matters to me and awareness is important, like to think I'm a good person, most of us are really, we are just messed up by this world and experience changes us. Take care and spread the word for TVP.

  307. Achems_Razor

    Am with you, too these people that need support from it seems someone that is a father, mother figure, more authority, Venusians, whatever. I would not relinquish my power to anyone so they can control my life, all these whiners that can not stand up on their own may as well go get themselves chipped, Orwells 1984 anyone?

  308. DigiWongaDude

    Imagination...? [chuckle] What I write (on this topic) is based on research and reading, not imagination. But I ask you: is a RBE an "imagined" future? Is what you say an "imagined" future?

  309. DigiWongaDude

    Wow... fantastic post! Wish I'd said that.

  310. DigiWongaDude

    "how is it possible for someone to own anything on this spec of dust? [...] the idea of ownership is slavery."

    Sigh. If I build myself a shelter or home, make some clothes to keep me warm, grow some food to feed me and my family? Why should I not have some say over the ownership of these things I create?

    You say that's slavery?? I say that's freedom.

    You say these things will be provided for me, that I don't need to make or own or create? If so, you'd fail to see the fact that I may wish to make or create, and therefore, by right, own the fruits of my labor. In your imagined system that would cause fatal problems:

    If I started to make jewelry or paintings and used them as a means of exchange, I would have a way of acquiring wealth (goods, services, leverage and power) over others. I COULD do this through creating 'demand' for the supply of goods outside of the central distribution, and do this on MY terms.

    You would, therefore, have to take away my means to create and exchange, for the good of the many. Your system IS slavery, but you refuse to see it.

    All I can take away from your 4 combined posts is that you are admitting private ownership has no place in TVP's rbe, which then leads inevitably to the utter collapse I've highlighted in plenty of detail, but which you have avoided thoroughly.

  311. DigiWongaDude

    Sources (not invented or imagined):
    What I write (on this topic) is based on research and reading. Recent history, common sense, logic and the writings of important works such as Animal Farm and Lord of the Flies will also take you much further. If you don't feel like reading (both of those have been made into films) check out Horizon's "The Chips Are Down" (about the coming age of computer technology and automation). Then (and only then) can we talk about your views on controlling the invisible 'Controllers' in a TVP world. It seems you've been researching all the 'good stuff' and ignoring the elephant in the room.

    Strawman:
    It's not a strawman fallacy Janeen. I'm comparing your RBE (as proposed by TVP) to communism not because it bears the same hallmarks (which it does), but because it suffers from the same inherent problems - namely corruption, exclusivity, apathy and lack of incentive. The observation at the start of my post mentioning communism was just that - an observation. The post in its entirety is about a globally introduced, centrally controlled, resource based economy. If the parallels, in the way I've chosen to write it, make it difficult to tell communism apart from TVP's rbe, then so be it. Perhaps you'd like to suggest TVP is not an extreme socialist movement?

    More on Incentive:
    It's been said (I can give the source) that socialism could (theoretically) work as a better system than capitalism if only the problem of incentive could be fixed. TVP appears to be attempting to tackle this directly, through technology and automation. But it will not bring about incentive in the full sense of the word. Are you unwilling to accept that? As with other areas are you more in favor of ignoring it as a core problem or use circular arguments to kick it down the road? Perhaps you'd like to suggest TVP is not a socialist movement at all?

  312. DigiWongaDude

    80 years? Why 80? Did you invent that?

    "In 80 years the old will die, the young will evolve." but hang on, earlier you told us we'll be extinct because "In 10 years we will need 7 planets."

    Did you invent that too?

  313. Pete

    I would argue that 1984 is an instruction manual for the current system, there is now more control over us than ever, fact, why do you think they push the terrorist card?
    If you honestly believe you have choice and freedom today (this does depend on your purchasing power though), then you are in denial, we are all victims in this false illusion,
    we have privileges, no more, wait and see what happens in the future as this system spirals out of control, 1984, you aint seen anything yet, ie climate.
    I'll agree that TVP does give me some comfort, a little hope maybe, but I am realistic, we're more likely heading for extinction rather than evolution.and by what assumption do you conclude that I can't stand up on my own, worse still you generalise that to all who think this way, I encourage you to do some research,
    us 'venusians' as you put it, look at facts, believe in science, we understand we can and should be doing better, we believe in raising awareness for the betterment of humanity as a whole, you wouldn't be controlled in RBE, only free
    believe me, sometimes I wish I could live in ignorance and not care, I just wasn't born to become a wage slave and I've got this nagging problem - morals and empathy for others and zero tolerance for bs and lies, how about you, talked to any homeless people lately like I do sometimes? Why is it people are homeless? Just an example of a 'venusians' moral stance....

  314. Pete

    I would like to address your use of the word 'venusians' - this is a label, a form of name calling if you will, primitive thinking, it is a built in defense mechanism to a concept that is not understood by you, this has been programmed into our thinking over decades of control, just like communism comments, etc through propaganda and dis-information stratergies. The 1% or some of them and their puppets do not want critical thinking, they want good obediant workers to do what they're told and question nothing, the sad thing is you accept this without realising, a false illusion, control, where even people who are struggling in this society will defend the status quo through fear, if you are aware of what I am talking about then in my opinion that makes you worse, think about that and do some research. Oh, out of interest do you know why it's called the venus project? I'll give you a clue, it's nothing to do with the planet Venus.

  315. Achems_Razor

    Who is going to be the leader of this utopia, you? People have to follow a leader, an alpha male, same as in our Canada geese, one at the helm, all the rest follow in a V formation. Venusians? I quite like the name for you dreamers, unless you like the planet Xenu better? (Xenusians) basically the same type of scenario with a religious? twist. Free? my arse!

  316. Pete

    Clearly you miss the point, have done zero research, are close minded, confirmed again resorting to labels/name calling, that suggests to me that as you're on the defensive, you might just see some logic in the concept, will elaborate on decision making later.
    The bigger picture is thinking outside of the box you refuse/unable to do. The fact you are here and commenting, and possibly watched this doc, maybe suggests that you are looking for answers but just don't know it. yet! Will agree on one thing though, religion is a mentality we most definitely can do with out.

  317. Pete

    As promised in other replies, the next post will try to explain decision making in RBE, bare in mind this will take some explaining in my terms, I'm not an expert and have no claim to be, will give overview and example of what I learned, To understand you will need to realise that it's outside of current system, ONLY if and when, RBE concept is agreed & applied and transition process begins/achieved. It might be worth reading post on transition first.
    I am only trying to raise awareness so please do your own research, don't take my word for anything, I do understand the usual comments on this and the fear, after all we have been controlled and had decisions made for us for a long, long time, and these decisions have not been for the betterment of humanity or environment, we have ever improving technology to do a lot better than current system,

  318. Pete

    How to tackle the issue of decision making, I'll start with discussions on sites like this, some of us are for, some against, it doesn't matter how many times we reply and present information, pointing out flaws in each others thinking, our minds, or as I realise our conditioning, will not concede and agree, that's ego, that's the way we are, I would argue experience only can change our thinking, which goes into environmental conditions, the system itself (values).
    So this is how politics goes, they argue like children (talking uk parliament for the record), wasting a hell of time and really, in my opinion achieve nothing or very little, when it finally comes to a decision or law or policy, which can drag on for days, weeks or months, there's never an overwhelming majority agreement,
    how the hell can we decide on something with no full agreement, with little refernce to facts, in politics decisions or campaigns are made just to win votes, their decision if implemented may benefit one group but not another (inequality) and a lot of what they deciding on is because of the monetary system, in my opinion, no logic, no facts, no reference to those who benefit or not, should I go on about the reality of this process?
    This could apply to business as well, maybe their goals are different, decisions are made with reference to costs, ie manufacturing/distribution, which can't be decided on the most efficient means, only the most cost effective (competition) or sales, they must make profit so services or products can't be made in the most effiicent way possible (intrinsic and planned obsolescence).
    Now in RBE, but only and I repeat only when we are there and improving our thinking along the way, as we phase out money, etc , we will have computers systems in place, we've completed surveys/research, with input from the best people in all areas, having worked on the logistics of it all, we run this programme, we realise we're running low on a certain material for example, which flags up on computers, maybe everywhere or just to particular volunteers, to be decided in transition, this recommends the best alternative if required and best method to produce more if required, taking into account the actual use/demand for it, any environmental or outside restrictions, etc, basically any info we have programmed this system with, we have arrived at a decision, now if someone disputes this decision, they will have to present actual evidence and facts and run it in the program, here you go a truly scientific method, which as society emerges and more knowledge comes to surface we continually update programmes, upgrading any infrastructue, mannufacturing, distribution, energy use, education facilities, hospitals, etc, etc, any thing we need or want, again keeping tabs on all resource and environment restictions, people constantly providing ideas therefore contributing as and when they want, worldwide - why would we need people to make an irrational decision, the only decisions necessary, really would be done with the use of ever improving technology, over time, less and less people would be involed in any labour too, maybe on ocaasion we may need to have proper informed debate on a certain subject, say the computer can't decide if it's in our interest to pursue a space programme or something, or change an educational method, then on world forums, again with best computer system in place, people contribute their thoughts, we way up votes and we decide,
    (still decisions then I'm guessing some will comments on), but having become a civilised society at last, ego, bias, etc will not really come into the equation, can't decide we don't do it, until more data is available.
    This is how it works in my simplistic terms any way, I'm sure if you really want to understand you could look further into what's actually possible and apply some logic, the info is out there,
    I'm sure, on the way to RBE there will be many arguments and some one may possibly have to make a decision but it is made by the person/group most qualified, not and I repeat not by some group of politicians who know nothing about a technical issue.
    our problems today are caused through our primitive thinking, we make decisions with no reference to science,
    actually even scientific debates of today are hindered because of ego, funding,the interest of a business, ie pharmaceutical, this way of thinking can't go on, we need evolution, a grown up approach to all our problems with the technology we have.
    Imagine how things would improve for every one with this type of logic, well I can hope, that's what I'm doing. raising awareness first, hope explained like this can help some of you,
    Maybe this is wrong and TVP have no idea, I however believe technology proves otherwise and you can't dispute a scientific method. it's just our thinking that has to change, a system for us all & the planet...

  319. Janeen Clark

    thanks pete!

  320. Pete

    Thank you, got inspiration from you to have a go, why not, got time on hands at mo, proof that the mind can be stimulated when not weighed down with a job, what could be in RBE hey!

  321. Achems_Razor

    What you are trying to do is force your so-called utopia on me with force tactics, ad hominem, you do not know me, so do not try to sell me, nor tell me what to do, nor put words in my mouth, I probably know more than you will ever know on a mirad of subjects. You are on the defensive and getting very personal. Stick to the topic on hand, it is about the doc, not me.

  322. dewflirt

    A Venusian is just someone who comes from Venus, not a mean thing. You really have to drop the idea that everyone is frightened and defensive. If anything they are applying the critical thinking that you think is so lacking, being cautious. Fools rush in etc. Still hearing nothing but negativity and an unsettling conviction that everything is wrong. Don't think anyone here would deny that some things need to change, we're just not convinced that we want to become Venusian. It's not possible to get everyone to want the same thing, religions have been trying that for hundreds of years with varying degrees of failure, even violence, oppression and fear mongering haven't won us over. If TVP 'evolves' its way into being, it will be so slow as to be pointless. If it's rushed into being, it's dictatorial.

  323. Pete

    I've made my points already so will say let's agree to disagree, will try to explain where I'm at personally, my eyes are just too open when I see so much other suffering and pure bs in the world, where I live I see homeless people all the time, I've helped some with the little I have, money, food, or just sat down for a chat, 3 years ago I let someone stay at my house for over a month, I've seen many of my old friends destroy themselves with drugs and my family has always struggled, my dad died at 58 having spent the last years of his life in massive debt, constantly stressed and in bad health, I was close to him, that had a huge impact on my thinking, my mum who is not in the best of health has had to take a second job recently, tried to kill herself several times. It just breaks my heart all this needless suffering and believe in my soul TVP is the answer.
    You are right though, it has to evolve, wish people as intelligent as you, and all that see the problems of today would get on board to help with awareness. The only problem I have is that all negative comments are from within the current system thinking, I get that, it's reality, should be a better one though.
    I have commented several times that I have no real belief it will ever happen so messed up is our society, so I am not deluded, just hopeful and lost if I'm honest.
    Thanks, I appreciate your comment.

  324. Pete

    I think in my points I have most definitely stuck with what the doc is saying, may have gone slightly OTT, sorry my brain has been in overdrive lately, various reasons, agreed I do not know you and you know nothing about me.
    'I probably know more than you will ever know on a mirad of subjects. ' maybe, maybe not, are we talking experience or knowledge? It's not about an ego battle is it? Any way I've made my points, sent a reply to dewflirt so you can know where I'm coming from personally if you want to, that is, no forcing tactics intended, I promise.

  325. Janeen Clark

    you know a lot of times we almost forget to bring up the most important aspects of a rbe that people cannot yet fathom and that is thousands of the best minds working together on products and inventions and services, we have never seen anything like that and the type of quality it would bring, as well as real problem solving, we would see an explosion of creativity simply by getting rid of copyrights and having all people co-operating in their specific filed this transformation would be something we cannot yet even fathom and its right there at our finger tips we could wake up tomorrow and do this but we are so enslaved in our thinking we cannot think outside the box enough to see the potential and a better life.

  326. Janeen Clark

    like for example we see in the world now hundreds of computer companies and each one has some real expertise and amazing people, imagine if ALL of those people worked together instead creating the best computers man can make at this time it would be unbelievable , and imagine every field like that. the world as it is today takes a step forward and 2 back because the competition mindset kills any real collaboration which is scientifically proven to be more advanced. if your building a skyscraper and have 1 great mind on it it can turn out pretty good but imagine having a hundred of the best engineers all working together they would miss nothing it really would be the best we could make at that time. this is the way forward.

  327. DigiWongaDude

    It just gets a little bit tiresome Pete. Anything that doesn't fit TVP is 'from this system' while you see all your learning, research and ideas as 'thinking outside the box'. It's condescending to the max! That's not a valid argument at all. What if I countered that all your thoughts are a result of this system, leading to false hope in a TVP system? Round and round we go...

    You too are a product of this system. You think you are able to detach your mind from all this and think freely? Jacque Fresco says that's impossible (oops!).

    The air is thick with you lot being optimistic free thinkers (while the rest of us are pessimistic slaves, doomed to extinction and planetary destruction) - see your pessimism there? But you show and provide no proof of concept. Your spreading of awareness means nothing more than 'this system is bad', it provides nothing towards 'there is a better system' because you have no real workable plan to replace it (so it's no more use than a fart in a spacesuit).

    But worse, you wish to press the reset button and start again (with more fairness), whilst we all want to fix the system from within and perhaps add more fairness to it (optimism) - not quit and give up on this (pessimism) and hope something better will come along that (to most critical thinkers) has the appearance of an already proven failed socialist system.

    So you don't like how things are? You think you can do better? Prove it! Be the change YOU wish to see in the world (Gandhi), instead of looking to follow yet another social engineering system, that (because you 'say so') we should follow too, and oh yes, unfortunately it's a necessary requirement that we do or it won't work. Hello?!

    Please, consider I'm ok, you're ok and the world can be made better. Start from there and MAYBE you'll find there's no need to be any more extreme or pessimistic than that.

    P.S. Dewflirt has already given you the tools to improve your lot in life (a workable plan). I hope you were paying attention, it only took her one or two lines, and she only had to say it once. Good luck.

  328. Pete

    Exactly - the possibilities are endless, why can't all that oppose, particularly those that are aware, embrace such a notion! Still, with people like us Janeen all at TVP, TZM and others, being willing to take the criticism too! The funny thing is, we're not even thinking about ourselves really, as we know in reality if humanity is to end today's struggles, we are thinking of future generations, how many though before it's too late is the question!

  329. Pete

    Couldn't agree more, my thoughts are absolutely result of system, and yes it probably is false hope, in many of my points I have noted I don't truly believe it will happen and gave my opinion as to why, tiresome, yes, never commented on this site before, used to youtube but gave up, always kept up with TVP & TZM, and not seen any progress.
    There is much doom and gloom in a lot of what we say on present day, it's not nice but seems true enough to me.
    There is evidence on technology, we are using some of it right now, and there's also evidence on climate change, slowly being acknowledged, or so I believe.
    No evidence on concept to my knowledge, because that's what is a concept, a hope, a vision, a goal for humanity to grow up, well that's my understanding of it and I agree with that concept in order to fix our problems from within.
    I believe with TVP & TZM that this line of thought would solve all social problems and if achieved we would all be capable of critical thinking. Not because they so, it just makes sense to me, not much today makes any sense at all - in my opinion.
    I understand your side, and I actually have admiration for you, read many of your post's on other doc's and your intellect is astounding, which, again in my opinion makes it even more frustrating that you can't see the true benefit in what TVP are trying to get out their, how we could do with people like you on board, but you have your views, fair enough.
    Who know's if RBE was achieved it could go completely wrong, somehow though I don't think it could be much worse than today or where I believe we are heading with current day line of thinking, i can't prove that, not at all.
    Your last remark though that's a personal insult, let's see, someone I've never met, never will, has given me the tools for a better life, hmm!
    If you were thinking critically, you would have considered background, education, the experiences I have gone through, the luck, or lack of, etc, etc.
    I live in an area that is not too great, we have no choice into what environment we are born, so to have the real tools you talk about is not always so straight forward and honestly I don't feel anywhere near close to having the tools or confidence to do any better than I am already - a result of system.
    Any way I still respect you and we are all ok in the main, we're only human.

  330. DigiWongaDude

    Thanks for the compliment Pete. No insult at all. You mentioned the Job Center, Dewflirt mentioned growing your own business, AND how simple it can be to do that successfully, within this system, a capitalist system. But that is another topic, and not for here. Just needed to clear that up.

  331. Pete

    No problem, it is relevant though because it most definitely relates to personal circumstances, etc - system. But I think I've covered my opinion in this area already.
    Let me share a thought, I had an interview this morning, decent job, decent money, really prepared for it, went there and it went quite well, but I come out cursing myself for not saying this or saying that in the way I had thought out, someone else could go in and answer everything brilliantly and get the job, yet I could be so much better at actually doing the job!
    Is this really a way to make a decision?
    Point is, our lives can be in someone's hands, where's the choice? and what effect could this have on a person?
    I know this is reality, deal with it, etc.
    But is it right? It piles more stress on us!

  332. Janeen Clark

    when we gwt sick of being manipulated and controlled by the very rules of the system, when we decide freedom is going to happen we will gather together and let violence and force and all ignorance go in the vaults of history and unite to create a world with only citizens of earth and no domination structures this is a resource based economy and its going to happen the day we wake up and make it reality.

  333. DigiWongaDude

    COLLABORATION vs COMPETITION:

    "...the competition mindset kills any real collaboration which is 'scientifically proven' to be more advanced." ...source please?

    Actually you'll find, if you look, "collaboration is the new competition" (an article by Harvard Business Review explains). Collaboration is being embraced in this system, so no need to destroy this system to achieve it. If you read the article you'll find these non-TVP concepts:

    1) From the very beginning, you must develop clarity of purpose and articulate, “What can we do together that we could not do alone?”

    2) "...we’ve found that senior level participation can be an effective antidote to [transcend parochialism*]. Senior leaders often have a “balcony view” of the core issue, understanding the needs of the field and the inherent limitations of their own organization’s approach". - aka hierarchy.

    If you don't use these two steps (of five), you risk collaborative projects becoming 'messy and time consuming' (according to Harvard). So, BALANCE and some sort of LEADERSHIP steering improves success.

    No need for extreme socialism here then.

    *narrow minded, self interest.

  334. Pete

    In general terms we are talking 'mindset'

    You are talking business collaboration only,
    Which agreed does happen, but will always be limited due to the very nature of market competition as a whole.

    Janeens point is very valid, the examples, although speculation, are what we believe would be an explosion of creativity, innovation and collaboration if rbe was ever achieved, We believe the market 'mindset' kills this possibility and holds humanity back.

    This makes a good read against competition:

    No Contest: The Case Against Competition, Alfie Kohn, Boston, Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1986

    This is just 1 reference from The Zeitgeist Movement Defined - on their website with pdf download available - section 10 which is under the heading Market Efficiency v Technical Efficiency - referenced throughout.

    I know this sounds condescending to you,

    but it is our current 'mindset' that we believe has to change, or thinking outside the box, rather than the box 'capitalism' or the general market/monetary belief keep us trapped within.

    You are defending a system that basically demands infinite growth on a finite planet - unsustainable on every level.

    I may have gone OTT with pessimism before but you can't deny at the very least nearly half the worlds population are in some form of deprivation!

    Why is it current system is not allowed to be questioned? We can do so much better people - i urge you to envisage the potential we are throwing away in the name of profit?

  335. DigiWongaDude

    Well done Pete, now THAT's what I call stepping up to the plate - searching questions, sources and clear positions. I'll respond in kind asap.

  336. Pete

    Thanks for your compliment, I am not about scoring points though, this is from my heart, but appreciated all the same.

  337. Anton

    War is where the young man with a prosperous future is "nationalized" by the state and sent to die so his children can pay the bill for years to come. Want to see an end to war? Begin by nationalizing the very companies that profit from it next time they want to make one.

  338. Pete

    Well said, this idea is just one of so many possibilities we can
    begin to implement in the transition process, on a long road to achieving the RBE concept, eventually ridding ourselves of being 'nationalized' - another is brought up by Jacque Fresco, the military focus more on becoming problem solvers, thus bridging the gap across the world, without the 'war' mentality.

  339. Pete

    On reading through some comments. again - sad huh!
    The real issue really is 'mindset' and a complete lack of vision from many. I'll just tackle property/ownership concerns, as if awareness, which is a challenge in itself and the potential of a long transition process with all minds contributing - people will be just thrown out in the streets, have their homes, their 'stuff' taken, moving everyone into TVP cities over night whether they like it or not! Please! Get any idea of TVP cities out of your head, that is many years off, how many. who knows! The best minds may go down a different route.
    People would be excited, talking about the possibilities - deniers/selfishness, petty wants gradually being eroded away.
    The point is 'if' enough awareness is reached, transition is ever to start, life would carry on as normal for most of us all in the main, with some business, some buildings, money, etc, gradually becoming obsolete, more and more people involved, realising the potential!
    There would be problem solvers out there trying to resolve all concerns worldwide, we would work it out some how!
    If not, then to all you doubters - I have a couple of questions:
    Do you truly believe, our current 'mindset' will solve the ever mounting problems the world is facing, if so - how?
    Not hearing any suggestions, just ridicule of a great vision!
    Consider the decline in 'life-systems' - do you truly believe that the market can solve these problems alone and really give us the required tools to not only reduce & eliminate our impact but also repair the mess we've created - when profit is the name of the game?

  340. over the edge

    You state "The real issue really is 'mindset' and a complete lack of vision from many" . I disagree, It has nothing to do with vision. It has to do with demonstrable proof. stating "we would work it out some how!" is not reassuring. You say it will happen gradually but do not provide any actual proof that it is even feasable. I assume most of us know what they claim will happen. But a claim backed by nothing but rhetoric is meaningless.

    On to your questions

    "Do you truly believe, our current 'mindset' will solve the ever mounting problems the world is facing" I do not know. I never claimed to have an answer. That in no way makes TVP a viable alternative.

    " do you truly believe that the market can solve these problems alone and really give us the required tools to not only reduce & eliminate our impact but also repair the mess we've created" I do not know.Who claims that as a solution? You seem to be impling false dichotomies here. Either keep on the same or TVP. Who knows maybe you are right, maybe the current system will fix itself, maybe another approach completely will solve everything, I can't answer that. But the clock is ticking, TVP was incorporated in 1995 (as a for profit company) and now twenty years later still cannot provide demonstrable evidence for even the simpliest questions, I have been asking the same questions for years to no avail. Twenty years and nothing concrete to show for itself. How long do you think we have before something demonstrable should be done?

  341. Pete

    Good reply, to counter:
    Vision or lack of / Proof - I can only show proof of existing problems, I can't possibly begin to prove 'RBE' is without question the right way forward - I just believe with 'awareness' achieved and a process or 'transition' underway, will result in the most, organised, intelligent, honest, compassionate & collaborative approach the world has ever seen in the best scientific manner we can apply - improving constantly over time with actual data and contribution from the best the world can muster.
    I believe as a species we are very intelligent, and can adapt, achieving any goal we set or 'work it out some how' - but with current 'mindset' ie market mentality, we are extremely restricted.
    In answer to my first question, you have no alternative, glad you're honest,
    TVP or RBE is not a proven solution, I agree. Because we have not yet achieved any where near a level or 'mindset' to apply such an approach - that's the problem they have 'awareness' seems impossible because of 'mindset' or a blind faith in a system that can be proved to be unsustainable.
    You're asking to prove something that cannot exist because of this! We need 'awareness' being achieved and 'mindset' beginning to change - in my opinion and many others, from TVP to TZM and us believers in a better and sustainable world for all.
    So to my second question, which is more concerning, so I'm guessing you agree on 'life-systems' decline, but answer with a lot of 'maybe' - I just believe that hoping current system will somehow miraculously change our 'mindset' and incentivise or initiate a real working plan is unlikely to say the least.
    The clock is certainly ticking, how long I don't know, but I'm fairly confident in a future generation or 2
    they'll be be saying, why didn't we see sense!
    I've studied a lot on climate change, the dis-info and lack of facts make it somewhat confusing but
    'if' someone like Guy McPherson is right then that clock is rapidly running down.
    Is RBE concept (forget TVP) the answer - I just believe so - but humanity has to grow up first - time will tell.
    Me - I'll be long gone by then but hope to live long enough to see humanity rise up shout 'no more'

  342. Janeen Clark

    could i ask you to explain what you mean by these combination of words ? "....cannot provide demonstrable evidence ....i have been asking the same questions for years to no avail." and also "..nothing concrete to show for itself" its just that i cant understand what this means in the context of TVP what they do and have always done and always will do. and also. i cannot understand what you wrote in the context of a RBE itself what the reality is for what it will or would take to establish it. thank you sir.

  343. Janeen Clark

    im just saying that the way your using language you specifically chose in that context it sounds like your misunderstanding TVP and its role in getting a RBE off the ground and also misunderstanding what a RBE actually IS and the implications of necessary steps to establish it that come with knowing what it is. this is why i am asking if you could please expand more on what i asked about because maybe i am wrong about you misunderstanding it , maybe i just misunderstood what you wrote itself because it was not easy to extract an exact meaning information -wise out of those couple comments thank you.

  344. Janeen Clark

    I have seen a lot of what i can only fathom as misunderstandings of a RBE and TVP so im hoping i can help in some way by trying to make it clearer, hopefully enough so those people can research the topic in depth where any misunderstanding would def be cleared up in all areas and subsets of a RBE. So i would like to begin with a RBE in general before moving on to the specifics of TVP . A RBE 's concept begins with a reality check, and that is literally that mother nature the laws of physics etc. a dictatorship we will never be free from unless we someday invent some serious tech to alter this reality. this statement is a reflection on how things actually work instead of peoples ideas of what should be . humans require things to survive our organs work a certain way our ideas must match up with how things are in reality. a patch of land can provide for so many living creatures , a electronic device works the way its totality of parts function. everywhere we turn and look we see this reality, yet somehow government, politics,religion, money systems etc. are completely disconnected from reality in every way they are identical to what we knew 3000 years ago when the last time these systems where updated in any form right around ancient greece and rome times. the rules of these systems are not compatible with reality . and when we try to fight the dictatorship of mother nature we fail . we can create all these human concepts and ideas that ONLY exist in our fragile minds like god and money, but they are a failure of taking care of what is REAL humans are REAL the EARTH and its very limited fruits are REAL the fact we have been abusing this with the rules of these systems like government and money is REAL and undeniable. this is REALITY . a RBE begins with bringing our focus on what is real. you want to have a system that deals with humans and their needs? then actually do that. and use what is so well tested and understood it cannot fail whenever possible we are not even 1 percent of the way doing this with money and government because they are mental constructs of domination and power . not meeting humanity and the planets needs for the long term. now coming to TVP they are advocating a RBE exactly the same. also jacque has come up with blueprints and designs and inventions and extras which provide an idea in these areas abd when you look at the designs you see the implications regarding that specific field the design is for and you can see a direct comparison with what we have today THAT is the purpose of all these things he has done and made to connect with your mind to understand what is achievable not to put them specifically in place that he has made. he is showing you what one man can do when thinking about humanity the point is imagine what can be done when EVERYONE works together about solving REAL problems, we have been so busy playing board games callled money and government , any switch to a reality based approach IS proof that some ask about. the proof is that your working in reality not fantasy like money or government. your making a specific point to solve problems and doing that the only way problems have been solved so far on earth. the scientific method. look at our lives now and then 5000 or 500 or 50 years ago. it is scientific method alone that has changed our lives now we apply this concept to every other area it can be to create a world and a humanity that has a chance at surviving there is no alternative to scientific method for problem solving a RBE is the answer anything less is laziness and has no way to success because reality works the way IT does not what our imagination dictates.

  345. Janeen Clark

    when 10 percent of the population do exactly what jacque fresco has done with his life we will live in a RBE until then we can never because reality dictates what is necessary for a RBE to happen the type of mindset and understanding humans need to be able to work together in large scale and design a co-operation based system you could never plop current humanity into a fabricated RBE and have it work because a RBE is those people building it together making it happen removing false divisions and refusing any domination or control over them , caring about what is actually important and real and saying that give a crap whether their grandchildren even have a world to exist in , if not mother-nature will bitch slap us of this fragile pebble we call earth and we probably will be gone forever for no real reason, we could have done it but instead we wanted to act like 5 year olds that refuse to share their toys.

  346. Janeen Clark

    money is a board game you live and die by , you starve if you cannot afford to eat you live in shacks and have nothing without it this is a twilight episode gone wrong! think about Russian roulette and mindless game where shear chance dictates whether you die or keep playing money is the same kind of game as a structure. the fact some have been brain washed into thinkng it is mere exchange is mind boggling look at how it actually works like you would take apart a laptop and repair it a glimpse of reality goes a long way.

  347. over the edge

    You state "I can only show proof of existing problems, I can't possibly begin to prove 'RBE' is without question the right way forward" I do not need "without question". What I do need is proof that TVP is the better solution and achieveable. I am not against the stated goals of TVP. I am against nothing demonstrable showing how we get there.
    You also seem to imply our current mindset is the sole product of "market mentality". That is not true. We have evolved into what we are, religion culture and instinct have brought us here. The "market" is not responsible for all our woes. You also forget that capitalism is responsible for many good things as well. The technology you wish to use is a result of our systems. the rights and protections we have in the western world (while not perfect) are far better than they were previously. alternative energy , modern medicine and the ability for our exchange here on the net is a result of our current system. our current system has faults but the successes are demonstrable. It has a track record of moving forward and advancing our knowledge while providing a better average quality of life. You cannot expect others to throw that away for an unproven alternative with no fact based answers to even the simpliest questions.

  348. Pete

    Hello, I do not doubt for a second that the 'market' has got us where we are, but with ever increasing problems this 'mindset' can not and will not fix our ever increasing problems in any real or long term way that I can imagine, or tvp, etc - a few patches maybe.
    The actual proof of a social system yet to be achieved is what you seek!
    Consider internet and social media tech and how that could be adapted and applied for a start.
    I will later provide proof of existing technology - really though, should I have to!
    I have an interview to prepare for today so am too busy - an example of my mind being distracted to do something I don't really want to but is necessary in current system!
    Read Janeens recent comments, then read them again and again, an amazing mind there, mine is more simplistic, but if I must I will provide as much proof as you want so hopefully begin to open your mind and others to the potential of RBE and the stupidity of maintaining market mindset..
    Have a good day.

  349. Pete

    A deep thought for you to consider.
    Is it possible that somewhere in the vast cosmic arena, a civilisation similar to ours is no more?
    Perhaps in their belief of their amazing achievements they refused to change the course of their destiny, believing the problems would fix themselves because they have technology, but didn't realise to apply that technology in the best way they were capable of - out of a blind faith in an existing system!
    Carl Sagan, asked these questions, he said once we are making steps but the steps are too small....

  350. over the edge

    You have no requirement to prove anything to me. But if you want me (or others) to join you I need proof. Analogies, claiming we have to or pointing out faults in our current system will not convince me. As for Janeen I have given up on that avenue. Good luck with interview that is more important than answering me.

  351. Janeen Clark

    overtheedge "step away from the edge!" lol JK . a RBE aims to take proven methods and put them into action in any applicable area. today in money and gov there is no proof or goal to use it. the whole system is profit based , that means make things wear out break, it means cut corners pay less belittle people brainwash to buy things it means pollute because the fines are cheaper than being effecinet, it means CEO work the least and "bottom feeders" make a company and get minmum wage, it means in schools we are rated as valuble as the shoes and clothes we wear , it means at jobs we are talked to and treated like prisioners that sjhould be greatful for every crumb we are fed becuase someone else can have our job if we dont like it. it means people judge others by the car they drive the house they own etc. do you need proof of any of these if so look at the world your living in the evidence cannot be hidden. a RBE says instead of profit being number 1 , science has already shown us what is REALLY number 1. the human brain is the most precious and complex thing in the universe this is VALUE , next we all come from Africa and before that evolved from a single cell organism 3.6 billion years ago. we are LITERALLY a family every human being is valuable every living creature is valuable the earth is valuable not paper and ink not numbers in a bank account not polluting the planet until no ozone layer left,not using up all our planets resources in the last 50 years, not treating humans like slaves ,so let me ask unless you referring to a specific invention in mind what is this "i need proof" thing have anything to do with what a RBE or TVP actually stands for or aims? proof is what it based off and the current world that has evolved from religion and government and human domination is not based of anything other than ignorance of proof. evidence is only thing we can rely on so if that important to you RBE is the only suggested social system that offers that in common with you.

  352. Achems_Razor

    One thing that you have seemed to forgotten is "SEX" is what makes the world go around, everything else is secondary, all the alpha men will by fighting each other for the women and visa-versa, there will be no equalizer for that.

  353. Pete

    Thanks for wishing me luck, in fact I smashed it and got the job,it's a good one too, these debates definitely helped stimulate my mind, I surprised myself.
    I could elaborate about work or most jobs and how they can effect us, what life could be like in rbe, ie stimulating the mind, but will be going round in circles and said what needs saying.
    We can't prove what you want to hear and you cant convince us the market will solve problems.
    I think we can all agree on one thing, that the world as it is, has to change, how - only time will tell.
    For some ideas, if you're interested, I'd recommend listening to many a TZM podcast, by Peter Joesph, James Phillips, Ben Mcleish and others,
    Also I urge you to read The Zeitgeist Movement Defined available on their website.
    Not the proof you want but it may help.

    Opinions hey, we all think we're right...

  354. Pete

    Janeen, absolutely brilliantly said as usual,
    this isn't my way but to make a point I'm going to up your vote,
    Have you a noticed a pattern here, the word 'mindset' to be polite, comes to mind.
    We're continue to live in hope for a more civilised/scientific approach one day.
    You know I never agreed with TVP in their insistence on making a movie - maybe they're right, if made well enough, people could actually see how we could live in an 'rbe' - we need a lot more 'vision' out there people and less trivial denial.
    ,

  355. Pete

    What!
    Sexual attraction is quite natural, controlling thoughts and actions, may be difficult for lesser species, but we are human beings.
    If everyone thought like this, then the prisons would be even more full than they are already.
    Personally, when I see an attractive woman, I may a have thought or 2, but that's as far it goes, if I get to know someone and things
    develop then great - that's called respect and generally how relationships begin, agreed?
    But I also look past what the eye can see, admittedly when I was younger I had a more shallow view but I don't recall a fight I ever had becasue another 'alpha male' wanted soemone I liked or was with!
    But, let's not change anything in this world for a desire to have SEX hey!
    Are you aware of population figures and how they are increasing, only made possible in the last century especially, because of technology.
    I propose in a more civilised society this figure would start to decline, because people would realise their impact having too many children and would have a more stimulating life - as opposed to the traditional way we are brainswashed into believing that's how we're to live our lives!
    Where I live, there are lots of young women, many single, who have child after child, never work, never will,
    Why - because they have no real education and very little hope, their children will generally grow up the same.
    I think we're better than that, 'alpha males' please! - a characteristic from 'environmental conditioning' from an immature society.
    As is the way some view women - me, I have more respect than that.
    In fact as a man, I would say if women had run the world, then we wouldn't be in half the mess we are now.

  356. Janeen Clark

    ya there was some times i couldn't understand where TVP was coming from until a couple years ago it hit mew like a tone of bricks , every repeated idea jacque talks about the things you thought he was over simplifying with there is a method to his "madness" it clicked in my brain he and TVP is there to open a small door anyone can chose to walk through, and by walking through it your figuring out and putting the pieces together in your own mind the more you research and have a greater understanding of what is preventing us from having a RBE already to more i understood where Jacque is coming from what he is doing and why. the movie idea is brilliant it will show a global civilization being built by every human in it that is what a RBE is not follow the ideas of some guys its wake up undertsand what you want and create that world. "what kind of world do YOU want to live in?" Jacque Fresco .

  357. Janeen Clark

    your forgetting one key thing in your argument. "Alphamen" is a word ,
    an idea a encapsulated box with a description of what is meant by it.
    so in reality you are just describing a set of behaviors that follow a
    set of values. we live in a world of over-sexuallized consumerism. we
    are taught and brainwashed to by hypersexualized by soceity becasue sex
    sells. it sells individual products for advertising as well as a medium
    for advertising, mix sex with a random product and create a hidden
    perception that the product is cool and you can't live without it. so
    this deals with sex from that standpoint of society .Next when you get
    to what human beings actually need it is meaningful relationships at it
    is compassion and it is connection it is empathy. it is only possible
    for a human to seek meaningless sex, or sex for sport detached from
    human needs and respect and value , when that individual is unaware of
    what their particular needs are and the needs and respect and value of
    others partially due to a lack of education couple with the advertising
    element i first discussed in a RBE this will not be an issue at all
    first because children in school will learn about their needs including
    companionship,connection,relationships, empathy respect value,dignity,
    and how all those play important roles in meaningful healthy human
    relationships. they will be provided evidence of what happens to a human
    chemically behaviorally physically and mentally when deprived from
    those needs , as the children get older their education will expand on
    this when a teenager in school they will be taught about how sex for
    sport deprives both parties of their needs and devalues they will be
    shown brain scans in individuals missing companionship and self respect
    they will be shown behavior of "alphamen" from this former society and
    why they were that way what they where missing to behave in such a way
    what factors where involved in shaping a human being this way and
    ultimately what alpha-men where missing in the form of connection with
    other human beings because the alpha men chose a particular domination
    strategy regarding human interaction instead of one of co-operation and
    dignity. alphamen would not exist in a RBE.

  358. Janeen Clark

    we already have current scientific knowledge and technology to show proof that when engaged in alphaman type behavior one is shutting down the portion of their brain that deal with empathy value of others compassion and respect. because the person is seeing the other human as a object a sex toy instead of a valuable human being to care about to respect to share something special with. real sex enjoyable sex and meaningful sex that you feel and care about is a connection with the other person ,a connection that exceeds friendships and love for family this is due to our evolutionary background and the data is very clear cut regarding this specific topic. it is only from misunderstanding or lack of knowledge one could even be possible to choose sex that is meaningless to them and would derive so little pleasure for both parties. compared to real sex all other factors the same and both had connection compassion respect and dignity for each other and wanted to give each other to themselves and have an experience of deep connection like true sex. this is why you see people fall in love that one time they have sex and its a hundred times better than the drunken sex they usually have with other people. look amongst your own friends and will hear stories of this all the time they say it was magical with that person. they never say they had sex for sport for 5 years with no real connection but decided "yeah lets just be with each other only, why not."

  359. Janeen Clark

    now that covers the sex potion of "alpha-men" when dealing with the other ways of thinking and behaviors and methodologies . they are choosing domination over co-operation regarding a strategy of human interaction. this is due to a lack of education in the subject of human interaction. it is also because they see all around them in society the man with the most power dominates others instead of co-operates with others because our systems themselves are domination strategies regarding human interaction so it is no surprise at all we are teaching people to behave this way. yet it is very easy to see this thinking process of dominating others is a misunderstanding or lack of information based. because we know and have evidence co-operation as a human interaction strategy leads to better results in any situation due to the retaliation vengeance and resentment that is the consequences of domination of humans the receiving party will plot their revenege and you get violence in all its ignorance for generations. domination of human beings as a thought process that gets carried out as actions and methodologies is an un-intelligent ignorant choice of human interaction because it is evaluating a situation without taking into account all the information available. science has proven we are all equally valuable ,and respectable we are literally one human family that walked out of africa together thousands of years ago and any differences we see amongst us is the environment shaping us whether skin color or race the environment shapes the human races to be what it is yet our DNA tells a larger more in depth story about one single family evolved from a single cell organism and then fish and then hominids we know the human brain is the most complicated thing i the universe this is evidence of how precious and valuable each one of us are . your weight in diamonds is nothing compared to the value of a human being you have never met this is proven fact .

  360. Pete

    Everything Jacque says, registers with me, starting when I first lost a good job as I 've said before. I've learnt more about overall concept from TZM. I think they spilt because of movie idea etc and as Peter Joseph admits because of ego. In this culture even the best minds suffer with it.
    The only concern I have about the movie is our society, just treating it like any other sci-fi movie, but at least we could refer people to it.
    We'd love it but many would still dismiss the idea, even it bit them in the backside with own experience of life and the world around, so many seem unable to open their eyes.
    I start a new job tomorrow, it seems a good one, challenging, but it will distract my thinking from this, and you're never in control of your own destiny, playing by someone else's rules whether you like it or not. Trying to explain this to friends and famiy, all I hear in reply is well the bills have to be paid.
    We know what world we'd like to live in or least see some real progress....

  361. Achems_Razor

    You wrote a post that is sheer gibberish! a good example of double talk. Means nothing!

  362. Achems_Razor

    Right! give me women and more women! Am saying again Sex makes the world go round, Sex sells, and most men think of Sex every 5 to 10 minutes! Google it if you are a doubter.

  363. Pete

    Just for the hell of it, I googled i - found diifering results depending on where or how survey was carried out - example of cultural conditioning.
    Me, I grew up from that way of thinking long ago, but I will admit to always taking a second glance at a good looking woman, sometimes resulting in row with a girlfriend.
    That's instinct, but to say 'sex' makes the world go round! I think thats the 'money' game.
    Jacque Fresco talks a lot about this issue, I suggest you listen and think for a second.

    Janeen has answered very well if you'd like to read that properly instead.

  364. Janeen Clark

    so the only information i can extract from your comment is you do not understand these topics have not researched them and are making assumptions based on something other than how they work. because times i go into explaining a front side buss on a central processing unit people respond the same way with language as you have that only has one meaning. "i don't have enough information on this specific topic to come to a proper conclusion at this time" even though you try to disguise it as a generic insult to cover the truth of that up yet it is plain to see for anyone who reads your comment, and does understand the topic at hand.

  365. Janeen Clark

    here is the evidence that your comment is you saying "i don't have enough knowledge about the topic to arrive at a conclusion at this time."
    first you would pick any point i brought up that you thought was inaccurate and find where it is flawed , then you would comment back in detail how it is incorrect . finally if there was many individual points of a topic incorrect you would do that for each one. so instead of trying to write a generic insult and say "your comment is gibberish" you would show exactly what was wrong and why and what is the correct information related to that point of the topic.

    i have shown your assumptions about sex don't hold up do you have anything to counter me? if not call me names and insult me to make yourself feel strong and powerful.

  366. dewflirt

    Good luck with your job Pete, hope it goes well :)

  367. dewflirt

    Saw something on giant cuttlefish recently. The big guy was guarding his lady, waiting for her to acquiesce. Along came a scientist with a nice shiny mirror, hoping to make him fight his own reflection. Instead he became completely distracted by himself and whilst he preened and posed, a younger, smaller male slipped in and had his wicked way with the lonely lady. When he finally realised what was going on it was too late, her head had been turned and he had to win her back with gifts of crabs. It's not sex that rules the world Blue, it's women ;)

  368. dewflirt

    You can try having all the women you like, good luck getting them all to agree that it's the way forward ;)

  369. Achems_Razor

    Right Dewy, as the still great Jack Nicholson said, "the only way to get along and know women is to treat them like a man, but take away all reason and accountability"

  370. Pete

    Very kind of you, sure it will, think this one will have my heart in it, specifically looked for something with more meaning, my points about having to do most jobs and effect they can have still stand. Thanks.

  371. dewflirt

    Oh, so just treat each other as equals then? ;)

  372. Janeen Clark

    in a RBE people will share sex with each other if they feel that connection (which may be quite often) there will not be taboo of shame and the like) marriage will not necessarily have a direct connection with sex or a intimate relationship. and may even be common for 3 people to love each other and be together sexually with no shame jealousy or the like because those things evolved from the idea of owning another human being instead of sharing intimacy and connection in a safe healthy and normal way. achems_razor may have 4 girlfriends in an RBE not for me to say or judge. and no one else would either.

  373. Janeen Clark

    i don't mean you "have permission" to have that many partners, i mean you may end up there without actively seeking that, it is entirely possible if that group of people have such a deep connection and they meet each others needs that well.

  374. Pete

    Want to see the most amazing talk by someone who knows and cares, then check this out on youtube:

    Abby Martin, ZDay 2015, Berlin Germany | March 14th | The Zeitgeist Movement

  375. Achems_Razor

    You are back pedaling, now you are saying this utopia is nothing but a sex commune.

  376. dewflirt

    ???? You already judged a few posts back!

  377. Janeen Clark

    um where?

  378. Janeen Clark

    no, thats not what i said at all. people will not think it terms of "owning" another person. many may prefer getting their needs met by a single person, other may prefer getting their needs met by more than one.

  379. Janeen Clark

    human beings are human beings. you should treat someone of any sex or race as valuable ,respectable honorable and with dignity as yourself.

  380. Janeen Clark

    others may recognize that different people fulfill different needs and they fulfill certain needs of a partner while someone else fulfills other needs to their partner that they for whatever reason cannot .you have to remember human needs is replacing "profit" of a monetary system as far as priority and sense of what is important.

  381. Janeen Clark

    human beings are not "property" no one "owns" another person that is the consequence of money system and thinking in our current system but will not exist in a RBE. in our current system people think in terms of "owning" another or wanting to "own" and "control" a human being.

  382. Janeen Clark

    Michael Jackson once said "...beat it...." but i doubt he was referring to your wife. i think we have evolved a little farther than getting our views of human interaction from the quotes of entertainers.

  383. Pete

    Well done, was thinking of a way to put that myself. I'll give a recent example of our pathetic society here in the uk - reading the paper the other day, headline news priority was member of one direction leaving as opposed to the co-pilot who deliberately crashed that plane in the alps! The control and conditioning over most goes so deep that we are kept occupied with irrelevant nonsense and people listen to the view of a celebrity!
    And that plane or anything like that, interesting we only hear about the incident, how depressed or insane a person they are! Never about what caused that person to behave in such way - as if they're born that way!
    That might mean questioning the very system itself people and opening eyes to the potential we could unleash.
    Maybe a lot more open willing sex included - with primitive views of domination & ownership gone and a lot more respect and trust in each other.

  384. Janeen Clark

    lets take this really slow. first human sexuality is contained within the context of the larger area of "human interaction" wouldn't you agree? now it is important to first examine a glance at the entirety of "human interactions" in order to see any cross correlation between the 2. if you break down where a human being gets their information in life about "human interaction" there are 2 main areas a larger societal picture that can be further broken down and a family or smaller picture of parents friends relatives this area of human interaction is largely established early in life up until the age of 5 years old than grows outward from what was established in the 2 main categories when the human hits teenage years and adulthood. a human being puts together a significant portion of their views on human interaction from their own experiences along with what society deems "acceptable" . so beginning with birth and early childhood the human will be taught and learn from family life general human interaction as well as any access to television movies film other children at the parks friends uncles etc. this body of knowledge expands when reaching school and the human starts to learn about what is acceptable in larger context. later in the the workplace , police laws etc. help to add to this body of knowledge and experience. of the totality of human interaction for the human being. now when we examine any areas up closer with detail like television and commercials and at school brands of clotihing music a person's exposure to consumerism and what it has to say about human interaction along with issues relating to the monetary system in general there is a lot being taught to people about "ownership" and the richer you are the more valuable because of commercials with their hidden meanings of self worth identified with owning expensive things and television shows with women going after rich men not poor men because success is attributed to wealth and power all these things tie in to the larger picture of human interaction and when looking closer at human sexuality they carry in from these areas, depending on what information the human got from family life area of human interaction when they were young and the type relationships built with family and friends ,will determine how much of a balance a particular human will have of the consumerist view and the family view people that do not have their needs met when young in the areas of connection,trust,companionship from their friends and family , might have an unbalanced viewpoint of human interaction in general if they derived their view from receiving information from the consumerism society view based on money wealth ownership selfishness etc. you cannot look at a specific area of say human sexuality without accounting all the variables , IF you want a understanding of it based on reality.

  385. Pete

    Before any one comes in trying to counter this, think back to your own life, ask yourself how did my childhood shape my way of thinking and do I sometimes say something without thinking, even if deep down I know my judgement is biased?
    In a nutshell this is 'environmental conditioning' from a very young age which shapes our beliefs and reasoning all through experiences in life - explained amazingly well by Janeen - read it again.
    This one reason alone is why the overall objective of 'rbe' is to create the best possible environment, with better values & education being the key to a fully civilised society, and being born into this type of society is how 'rbe' overtime would flourish and people would be free from the dogma many of us face today.

  386. over the edge

    you stated "deep down I know my judgement is biased?" We all are guilty of that on varying degrees. That is why I ask for demonstrable proof and facts. That approach is never biased

  387. Pete

    Proof - not that one again, will try to stay on point here.
    I noticed you and others seem to select part of a statement when countering 'rbe' possibly without reading the overall meaning or to be fair I might be making a judgmental bias there - did you read Janeens post with great detail on this issue?
    Surely you can see where we are coming from and how current culture is damaging to many people to say the least.
    The overall issue here is 'environmental conditioning' and how it shapes all of us from birth or before that even. Tell you what, I see kids now where I live and think I would hate to be a kid, the bs in society seems to me to be getting worse and worse.
    Maybe you consider my belief in 'rbe' biased, but that itself has been shaped from my own life experience and relating that to the actual state of things in the world today with evidence to support this from science.
    I make my real judgement though on what I see with my own eyes, knowing how and why I act the way I have at times, and believe me I've demonstrated many traits and not all good at one time or another.
    My belief and what I understand about human nature and all that bugs me in this world. makes me believe in 'rbe' creating the best possible environment, by applying the best we can as a species working together with current technology to begin with - as the only viable alternative solution I have seen,.
    We ever get past awareness and into a real transition then I believe proof will start mounting quickly.
    Back on point, there is evidence on effects of 'environmental conditioning'
    So if I am biased then guilty as charged, but my bias wants the best for everyone and the planet, taking into account all I am able to.
    Think I could have made a better choice of words on last post to be honest.
    But you are right that we are all guilty of that, I believe enhanced further in current/traditional cultures.
    So without meaning to be patronising, the fact you realise that could help you to understand 'rbe' concept if you really made an effort.
    It's a massive topic, we are after all talking about changing everything...

  388. over the edge

    Not patronizing at all. Fyi I have read a lot and watched countless videos on the subject. I was a fan of zeitgeist until I looked into it and realized it was mainly lies. I know I am relentless asking for proof. I see that as a strong suit not a fault

  389. Janeen Clark

    which part were "mainly lies" that you found ?can you list them specifically and point to the evidence that shows they are lies, in those specific areas? can you show EVIDENCE to support this statement? after-all it is important to get to them bottom of it plus its your big chance to debunk that movement.

  390. Janeen Clark

    its just odd, in all your comments you never point to anything specific that you want evidence about or anything in specific that is wrong about a rbe or what your specifically against. it seems odd when you could just make a clear cut list showing whats wrong and why, or make a list of specific things you want evidence for. this would make it possible to give you the evidence your asking for.

  391. Janeen Clark

    a rbe is about using existing "proven" knowledge to fix and correct problems our current society generates and rewards. so if there is particular area your looking for "proof" then research that subset area. there are no propositions for a rbe that are opinion based or unproven. in the current world the knowledge is there but we are not using it , instead we use superstition and religious based ideologies like reward and punishment along with concepts of good and bad or good and evil instead looking at how something works but the knowledge is already there if you look at any specific scientific field . we have never made humanity the pritority, it has been profit and domination, a rbe says swicth it to humanity the planet and living creatures as the most valuable things and design a society up to date with what we know now not 3000 years ago so if you say you want proof so does anyone supporting a rbe. maybe more than you do. because we accpet the proof even when it shatters our expectations ideologies or assumptions.

  392. Janeen Clark

    the other important thing to consider is you cannot stay in a compartmentalized train of thought to fathom a rbe , because the implications of the totality of knowledge from each discipline or area , subset etc. gives us "proof" that cannot be obtained in thinking compartmentalized on one given area of study .

  393. Pete

    Respect to you, It's a good thing you are relentless, we should all be that way - to uncover the truth, especially in current culture, we are told lies or presented with dis-info all the time.
    Don't accept anything unless you're sure - which is exactly the type of thought process that 'rbe' would like to achieve, so that all decisions are arrived at implementing the most fact based, scientific conclusion all of our knowledge has come to understand. Remember on this though, we are talking overtime until 'rbe' is achieved with decisions finally being about technical issues in the main. My thoughts on transition would be a lot more opinion and bias to some extent, but with the concept out there and accepted in the main then this process too would make increasingly better informed decisions as opposed to the government circus we see today.
    I look for lies all the time, I've always had a low tolerance for lies and bs - I've studied TVP & TZM always looked for something I dis-agree with but have not been able to find anything that would constitute a lie - confusion maybe for more detail on transition process, but have come to realise that is not possible until the process begins. And maybe some ego issues and the why they split, but to be expected in current culture.
    To me they want the best for humanity, the planet and are sick of the way society is today - can't see anything wrong or lies in that myself...

  394. Pete

    To add to this, I would say one problem many see on first look at TVP is seeing the designs of Jacque Fresco and immediately thinking, we all live in those cities straight away whether we like it or not - Janeen has covered this, TVP is one man's idea of what 'could be' achieved. It's really about the concept of 'rbe' at present (imagine what many minds like Jacque Fresco would come up with).
    And the problem for TZM is some immediately relate it to the first Zeitgeist film and think it's a conspiracy - in my opinion though that's ridiculous, because what Peter Joseph was portraying back then was his thoughts on why the world is like this today - religion and financial control roots I totally agree with, 9/11 is a much more recently upsetting topic, but the fact 9/11 happened no matter what we believe says to me as it did PJ, what the hell is wrong with our society?
    TZM in particular, continually changes tact and presents real information in a more precise way or to put it another way, they evolve with time...

  395. Janeen Clark

    lets imagine some type of way of stepping forward into the future establishing some common ground building a new type of system that is designed for humanity ,life, and earth not profit or domination it does not need a name or brand just people organizing a new start and intelligently putting a foot forward in any area we have the concrete knowledge to do so, a key factor to consider is to implement as part of the rule-set of the new system checks and balances in the sense of what we call corruption and domination, we make them obsolete by making them impossible. who can argue with a step like this?

  396. Janeen Clark

    bump

  397. Janeen Clark

    do you want a world where paper and ink matters? or do you want a world where people, life ,and earth matter?

  398. over the edge

    You state " I dis-agree with but have not been able to find anything that would constitute a lie" cooncerning TZM please see "Zeitgeist Refuted" right here on TDF.

  399. Pete

    If memory serves, that is mainly about the religion claims from Zeitgeist the movie, I'll admit I am not 100% on all PJ's information here, but I get the point about how such beliefs developed.
    I didn't need to watch Zeitgeist though to justify my own feelings on religion and will generally ignore anyone who tries to defend it, Can't be doing with any pro religious nonsense.

  400. Pete

    Thought she said it pretty damn well.

    Janeen what is it with some of these people, seem determined to argue the same old nothing bs, again and again.
    Still, we'll live in hope yeah and keep trying to open eyes.

  401. Pete

    Forgot to add if you're going to counter with this stuff, which in an earlier post I pointed out is part of the problem TZM have, especially from the first movie, then my respect for you just went down another notch, thought you had studied!
    That movie had nothing to do with 'rbe' concept, at that time, PJ had never heard of it and there was no TZM. Religion is only relevant to the state of our primitive culture whatever the truth of certain details.

  402. over the edge

    your respect for me can drop if you wish but that doesn't change the fact that the people who run this movement do not fact check. they were wrong and lied concerning these points so they have to be sure to back any future claims with demonstrable facts. and they haven't.

  403. Pete

    So let me get this straight, you're now basing your judgement of 'rbe' concept on a few details, whether true or not from a movie made 'before' TZM even existed and has nothing to do with the movement or more importantly 'rbe' concept and conveniently choosing to agree with a religious refuted response as definite proof of a lie!!!
    Just to give you some background on me, I went to catholic schools, my family are mainly christians but I realised the stupidity of religion at about age 6-7.
    I will 'never' doubt for a second that religion began for controlling purposes and not understanding the elements of nature,
    but as said before wouldn't need anyone to tell me any different.
    Next you'll be telling me you believe Alex Jones!!!
    Sorry for the sarcasm but you deserve it on this issue.

  404. over the edge

    You ask "you're now basing your judgement of 'rbe' concept on a few details,
    whether true or not from a movie made 'before' TZM even existed and has
    nothing to do with the movement or more importantly 'rbe'". No i am not. But the fact that they got so much wrong in the past certainly makes me more sceptical of any other claims. "fool me once..." type of approach. also as I previously stated TVP was incorporated in 1995. So it was not before either movement existed.

  405. Pete

    When you brought religion into the equation, I had alarm bells ringing, sorry but that's how I feel.
    Fact, Peter Joesph founded TZM in 2008, the movie was made by him alone in 2007.
    TVP and TZM joined forces but split - not going into right now,
    TZM continues to change with the times and admit & state that the first movie in particular is 'nothing' to do with the movement and does unfortunately hinder their message mainly because of religious belief.
    You're right on one thing TVP (not TZM) began in 1995. Jacque Fresoc has dedicated his whole life and had a similar project in the 1970's. All these decades on and still no where near to enough awareness - so deep is the hold of control in this world, religion most definitely included.
    You believe what you want, things are not going well in our societies that's for sure, maybe because people are so easily fooled
    and look for any excuse not to acknowledge the truth maybe...
    How about this for a fairy tale or (religion) - the market will continue to consume and waste, somehow miraculously solve all the problems that are mounting in the same or similar unssustainable approach, not caring about the many or the planet.
    The complete opposite of 'rbe' - but not to worry we have our religious faith in God and in the Market so everything will be ok!
    None of 'us' declare we have all the answers, but a step in the right direction would be a start...

  406. DigiWongaDude

    Are you willing to accept you need to implement and enforce Laws to make domination and corruption illegal, let alone impossible? So explain your methods, I've no interest in your dreams.

  407. Pete

    Hello again DigiWongaDude
    Do you mean, more or less so than is necessary or happens today in the early stages of a transition process - bearing in mind there would have been a worldwide, mainly acknowledged awareness
    campaign achieved by then?
    We can't say what would happen early on but can speculate or 'dream' how the eventual 'rbe' would be like for future generations.
    Law would absolutely 100% be necessary whilst overcoming the 'many' steps to finally achieve 'rbe' - otherwise chaos would ensue.
    How, we can only speculate as pointed out so many times - it aint gonna happen like that!
    Without 'awareness' there can't be a 'transition' so your question is really irrelevant.
    As said before we don't have all the answers -
    we either carry on as we are and face the possible consequences or change to this or a similar direction!
    The point of this doc alone is in the title -
    'the choice is ours'
    The question you don't ask is - would law be necessary in a fully civilised society if or when 'rbe' has finally been achieved? On the way there, then obviously, yes it would, but with corruption and domination undoubtably being on the way out, quite quickly I'd speculate.
    So I'm going to be condescending again by saying you only seek from within the box, look outside and maybe you could see!

  408. DigiWongaDude

    Ok Pete, there is no arriving at a time when domination and corruption will be obsolete. Period. Argue that point to me as best you can. No amount of transitioning or awareness will help your cause (edit: in that regard).

    It's not about me being unable to think outside the box. It's more that the foundations of your arguments are built on "strawberries and cream"...

    TVP/TZM: "In a TVP world everyone will have strawberries and cream!"

    Comrade: "But... I don't like strawberries and cream."

    TVP/TZM: "Yes comrade! ...But in a TVP world you WILL like strawberries and cream!"

  409. Achems_Razor

    "Corruption and domination on its way out"?? only, strictly to use an analogy, if you use measures as in the movie "Equilibrium" with Christian Bale" where everybody is self drugged.

  410. dewflirt

    If you have to use law (a form of dominance) to prevent chaos during the transition, then the people have either not achieved awareness, or aren't really up for it, which suggests that the law enforcers might actually end up submissifiers. The promise of a better future doesn't mean much when there is no deadline for that future. Most people can't see much past the youth of their grandchildren and much else after that is not a concern for them. Nobody really thinks about oceans empty of cod whilst they're tucking into Captain Birdseye's finest. Nobody gives a second thought for the air their kids have to breathe when they drive a five minute walk to the supermarket to get the fishfingers. This whole thing is too dim and distant to be relevant. There is no quick fix and a slow fix isn't a plan, it's just progress. Something were doing anyway ;)

  411. DigiWongaDude

    Pete this is my view [edited], this is what I would like you to argue against. Who knows, you might change my mind (a little?).

    Corruption is like entropy:
    A "natural process" of decay. Death, if we are lucky, is the corruption of life. Given enough time it will break down ANY system. You can stave it off by 'interrupting' it (meaning dominate it) but even if you do manage that, just give it more time. So it's interesting, to me, that you think more time is part of the solution to corruption. In a free, uncontrolled world (or universe) corruption (or entropy) wins with less restraint. [I learnt this here on TDF, but had to fight with it in my mind for weeks before I eventually could not disagree.]

    Domination is like gravity:
    Relatively weak on the moderate scale (I was surprised how widespread its 'harmless' use is, by all of us everyday without even being aware of it) and potentially devastating at the extreme end (as can be seen with inequality today). It's a necessary part of human behavior, pervasive in most (if not all) human endeavors, because it provides a mechanism for survival (amongst other attributes) - we would quickly find ourselves exposed and overwhelmed and, yes, even corrupted without it (be aware of social engineers!). It is not going away, nor should it. But just as power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, extreme domination can and does easily lead to further corruption.

    So, regarding domination & corruption alone:

    1) Corruption always wins eventually in any system, but in a submissive OR dominated society corruption just 'wins' more quickly. I accept we are stuck with corruption and domination is a tool we can not do without, to help keep it at bay.

    2) Our current system does tolerate domination and recognizes corruption, but has failed to maintain balance in the system. It is already showing signs of collapse, in the opinions of many.

    3) TVP/TZM models are intolerant of domination and denies corruption, instead using them as part of a 'sales pitch' to attract and awaken disillusioned followers. This alone makes the model an outright utopia and not a worthy solution, again in the opinions of many.

  412. Pete

    Glad you just sent this brilliant post as I was about to reply something in a more emotional response to your other one.
    Will be honest, had a tough day today so WILL get my head around this and respond soon.

  413. Pete

    Entropy is a measure of disorder so yes 100% corruption is just that.
    The question is, what causes it, well in the main I'd say fear - is our society driven by this, could rbe eliminate it?
    Fear is the most fundamental problem we have as human beings. Almost everything we do is derived from it - our needs, our wants, our insecurities.
    What is the cause of fear? Maybe it's a high entropy information system, the higher entropy meaning higher disorder.
    So our society seems to be driven by high disorder, our minds become corrupted through fear.
    If rbe society were to become reality, would fear be eliminated? To say yes would be irresponsible, but we believe it would certainly be significantly reduced without going into speculation again or the science of environmental conditioning.
    You say it would break down any system! Impossible to state that, we've never known anything like rbe so to dismiss in terms of the reality of today is ridiculous to me.
    A natural process of death! A very bold statement there (thought I was pessimistic) - considering we can't say what is beyond life as we experience it! Maybe the purpose of our physical life is not to become corrupted or recognise when it's time to change!
    My belief is that as a species we are destined to fulfill our potential to achieve a fully civilised socitey - to reach for the stars, as the next step of many to further our knowledge of the ultimate question - can we do that in a society we have now - do we let corruption (fear) win?
    Your point about wanting time! If I believed that I wouldn't bother. By that I mean, I think time is running out rapidly and a transition has to begin sooner rather than later.
    I believe in this process, minds would absolutely become less and less corrupted from the fear we live in today - why because finally humanity would be aiming in the
    best possible direction, gradually reducing the division & fear we now have all over the world.

    To domination being like gravity, well you've answered that one for me by using the word gravity - the greater the object, the greater the force.
    Yes domination over others is definitely part of our nature, we would argue worsened incredibly so through our fear driven society.
    Would dominance be eliminated in rbe?
    NO way, I would say no matter how great a society we create, that would be impossible due to nature.
    What would dominance have to gain in rbe? Greed would definitely hardly exist, self-interest would still be there but with much better values in place and no need for profit, why worry? There would still be ego and opinions, some would still do better than others, but with so much more trust and respect in each other, I think we could accept our nature in a more civilised manner.
    And don't forget, all decisions would be based on fact through a scientific method, so the most dominant person around could not disagree with that way of thinking no matter what they believe themselves.
    Most importantly of all in rbe, the only real decisions would be technical (no money, no profit to think about) - so opinions and working together to establish new paths in this socitey, we believe could make domination to have little relevance, but WILL always exist.
    On your other points, we definitely agree on 2), but I think you're basing 1) on current reality, understandably so, we've not known anything like rbe and 3) your making an assumption without really taking in what TVP or TZM are saying. Personally I don't see it that way, intolerant no, just enlightened and awakened enough to realise that corruption or dominance could not prevail to anywhere near the extent we see now.
    The utopia remark is where we get really defensive, what is utopia; perfection, absolute harmony, no problems!
    Nature can not and will not allow that - ever.
    Unless we evolve to a higher state of consciousness in millions of years!
    in short rbe would just be the best possible step humanity can take.
    My advice to you is look more at your point 2) and seriously ask yourself, is there any other alternative, what benefit could rbe society bring, how much time do we have?

    My own awakening began at school, but really hit me 3 years ago, as said before, I was in a very dark place, but come to realise that was a result of my own selfishness, I had a burning question in my mind when I found rbe concept - it hit me like a ton of bricks.
    Are we just disillusioned followers- not at all, disillusioned by society today yes of course, looking for answers, absolutely - is that answer rbe - I believe so - through my own experience of life and what I see everyday.
    In truth the real benefit of rbe if ever achieved would not be for you or me, but future generations.
    Dewflirt made the point that no one gives things a second thought - well isn't it time we all did so!

  414. GRUMPY

    Do you understand what Edge was trying to communicate to you or are you that brain dead that you need a MIR to see if there is any chance of any living cells left.

  415. GRUMPY

    If that is the case why has it been pointed out many time that all you're doing is flooding this thread with utter crap. Each time someone ask you a question you ramble on about everything else but actual question at hand.

  416. Pete

    It's called having passion, quite simple really - we care, we choose to do this.
    What you need to understand is people like Janeen and myself, are desperately trying to comment on the most important topic
    that quite possibly our species could ever face - is not an easy task to explain.
    We take criticism from all over!
    What have you done here? Come in many days later, trying to make someone look silly to anyone reading your comment.
    Sure you'll get much approval, we've heard it all and then some, which makes it very frustrating at times.
    We are in an age of ignorance my friend, and I'm pretty sure we've hit a nerve with many when we talk about something so deep.
    Comments like yours help nothing but keep us trapped in this age - think about that!
    With all people I associate, the consensus is usually - it's never going to happen and the bills have to be paid.
    That's about the level of reasoning and how deep the control over us goes - think about that too!
    From the wording of your 2 comments I'm confident this reply will fall on deaf ears also.
    If you've read this far into comments, has anything registered with you - or are you just content to jump on the the most petty of points?
    Janeen has given great info and rambles a lot less than myself, over many post's rather than a long one like most of mine -
    reducing it to utter crap - hmm the ironary when I read yours!

  417. Achems_Razor

    Passion my @ss! 'GRUMPY' listed a proper response to 'Janeen' they are also my sentiments.

  418. Pete

    Was wondering if you actually read past the first sentence!
    Don't think you would know passion about anything apart from maybe more women!
    Your head is so deep in the sand, that you give ignorance a whole new meaning - I would expect nothing less from you than to share any petty sentiment.
    Apologies for reducing myself to your level, but it needs saying.

  419. Achems_Razor

    Any red blooded man should show passion for women, politically correct not withstanding. Unless as you are portraying yourself, you hate women?
    See, YOU, are another self proclaimed guru with visions of grander, that is out to save the world.
    Sorry that spot is already taken, you should know that only "Bruce Willis" is the one that has saved the world numerous times, lol.

  420. GRUMPY

    You are kidding right? By all I've read your biggest problem in not passion but a lack of understanding on how to actually answering the questions that have been asked to clarify the statements that have been made.
    The person you are defending has a habit of making absurd statements, then when asked to either explain in more depth or answer actual questions put to her she often avoids it all together..
    I have had this problem on other threads that she has had things to say for the same result. So by all means defend all you like but if you have made a statement that should be able to be confirmed with evidence, your passion is wasted when we are after facts and evidence to support the claims being made.

  421. GRUMPY

    Why do you think that she hasn't replied.?
    Could it be that she knows that my point is valid and she will not confront me because this is not the first time we have crossed paths on this site and she is not willing to be shown by me that she is nothing more than a person that lacks actual knowledge and she knows that I wont ease up on her, for the lack of respect to the others that are regulars on this site

  422. Pete

    Can't believe I'm wasting my time here and Dewflirt I'm disappointed to see your vote up, but oh well.
    I think an earlier post states my respect for women.
    Any way to someone who takes advice from Jack Nicholson and what you've stated previously!
    I have more passion than you could possibly ever know.
    I don't see women as objects to be owned as you seem to!
    See you've used another actor's name - where does your passion and inspiration come from?
    Enough time wasted here!

  423. Achems_Razor

    What? you are leaving? you sure give up easily on trying to terraform your utopia here on our small blue planet, you are playing the persecution card, sorry if we all hurt your feelings.

  424. Pete

    You've made your point very well here, and I do not know the history you speak of.
    Janeen is more than capable of defending herself.
    Both of us share the same passion and try to point out certain evidence or direction of vision really, it is such a hard thing to do on a topic or concept that wants to change everything.
    We made plenty of points though and there is plenty of info out there.
    We are all guilty of becoming frustrated some times i suppose, so,I apologise for any over-reaction.

  425. Pete

    Leaving! Give Up! - Never...
    Won't waste my time with your immaturity any more - that's all.
    How did you get that from I what I just replied!
    So many words I could use, but no point.

  426. dewflirt

    Pete, there's no need to get so upset. Achems humour might not be to your taste but let me assure you, he's a decent chap. Might come across like a bear in cossack clothing but he's actually a complete softy. Bit of a rough diamond. I do query your passion though, so easily put off from fighting your corner? You've only engaged with a few here, there are another 7 billion of us out in the real world, a good many with so much passion for their way of life that they're prepared to fight tooth and nail for it. Not suggesting you try that, think a strong brew and a ginger biscuit is more our thing ;) whether you return or stay gone, hope things work out for you :)

  427. dewflirt

    Ever stop to wonder at just how much oppression people can withstand before they reach breaking point? It doesn't take as much as you'd hope to keep entire nations under the thumb. Check history, anyone would think we enjoy it.

  428. Pete

    I don't get upset, in fact I was laughing at his comments, find him extremely immature, which is what I meant by wasting my time, reducing myself to that level. helps nothing, but certainly will stand my ground, always have, always will. And I'm sure there is a decent person in there - somewhere!
    I find it pathetic you all up each other votes - before you read anything into that, I find that to be the herd mentality tactic, to bully another person, but I expect no different,
    so don't upset me either, I laugh at that too, personally I don't give a damn about ego or scoring points.
    Engaged just a few people, on this doc, on this site, yes, but you know little about me.
    I do get frustrated at times, but reflect after. Just sticking to this doc, you all have this way of picking up on part of sentence, and never ever relating our points to rbe concept,
    ridicule being rife, rather than any vision what so ever in my opinion, just the same old bs, I'm sure you've heard yourself for quite some time now. It achieves notrhing, I'm more than used to that,
    The disappointment I mentioned about you, was that comment about women, considering previous comments! How easy you all forget, and are led by each others ego.This is part of the problem in our societies, so this concept will remain just that, and this from people with intellect!
    The oppression you describe here will continue, that's the whole point, you are so easily fooled and kept in this trap or as said earlier this age of ignorance.
    If you read my first post on here, you will know where I really stand with my belief,
    But wlll not be put off or have my mind corrupted by any of you, despite your best efforts, may give up on 1 avenue, like youtube and there's not much left to say here, unless anyone really wants to research first then ask some helpful questions?
    I talk in person to many and often run into the same things, the best being, well the bills must be paid as if I'm not aware of that...
    Or that's just the way it is, so easily accepting of less and less privileges and the subtle control over us,
    I don't care if people consider me crazy, I'd prefer that than to be well adjusted to this society.
    I've given some info on my personal life, but there is so much more that I'm guessing you would never understand.
    You want real evidence, just switch on the mainstream news for a while, or walk down the street in not so hospitable area's, open your eyes,
    You're right when said people don't give things a second thought - ever wondered why, and maybe think we all should take some responsibility for the way we screw up our society, destroy people and the
    planet - me I have passion and I care - do you?
    Not upset, just awake, that's all.
    This afternoon, I'm off to give some food and chat to a few homeless people, just so you know where my passion is.
    Will people get so tired of oppression one day and stand up to those who control us! You say check history, very patronising, I do that a lot - but without an 'rbe' type of awakening or concept, I know it would lead to absolute violence and chaos,
    I dare you to think about that properly for a while and ask yourself where this world is really heading?
    Go back to your brew and biscuit, sure it help solve problems no end!

  429. Achems_Razor

    Just a viewpoint, but am sorry to say, you sound so boring, I was just trying to cheer you up with a little humour.

  430. Janeen Clark

    well takes take a non biased look at what laws are, and what they are meant to achieve. a law is an attempt at dealing with a specific problem without examining and dealing with the problem itself, any problem can be fully understood by breaking it down entirely to its parts and understanding all them to get the picture of the whole. if we live in a monetary system and a government system which are systems of domination by their very rule-set . these systems generate the problems and then laws are written afterward to try to combat the problems. but if a different attempt at problem solving was used, we could make the problems obsolete by having systems that not only do not generate the specific problem but generate the opposite for each problem of law. if after that there is still a 1percent problem in that area compared to before when the systems generated it at 100 percent then it is much easier to work with. second, the information human beings are taught about reality or not taught and totally unaware of will be a strong determent of what you can expect to see in that area. lets take the concept of the human thought process, right now everyone is ignorant of this concept and people develop their own specific methodologies dealing with their thoughts which get carried into actions and then systems. in a world where human beings have a complete understanding of their own thought process and how that fits with reality we would see very different behavior indeed. we can see this already in another situation with the theory of evolution and the thousands of pieces of evidence surrounding it in all fields of study and discipline when a human has no access to the information that exists about evolution and its evidence in reality their thoughts and behavior directly clash and oppose the areas in which reality that deals with evolution and its implications this type of pattern can be observed in any filed area or interest. humans need direct information about reality that expands past their everyday knowledge for those areas non intuitive for us ,and their are very many indeed. there is vast vast factual knowledge pertaining to information a human being would use everyday all day their whole life when it comes to human interactions how humans work how they developed ,their propensities along with the systems humans interact with. once we are closer to a world of the human being having access to the most important information about their reality that would affect their life missing that information we can expect to see a very different world indeed. once can take any small current area of knowledge that directly deals with important knowledge not commonly known, and see the implications when those who have not had access it form beliefs and methodologies that clash with reality and how that effects their entire world and those they interact with in the world today.

  431. Janeen Clark

    lets take a small area to fully see the implications. human behavior. when a human being has only the knowledge of everyday experience of this topic at their disposal , we see concepts about it that do not match with reality. this area of study is like any other area. here are some you know well, lets take a artist. when humans have only the knowledge of everyday experience they say artists are born with special gifts and similar claims becuase that is their knowledge of their everyday experience, meaning they have not broken that area down into all its parts and examined them full detail, then assembled them all together to get to a whole picture one could call "art". lets take musicians when one only has everyday experiance to extract knowledge about that topic they say things like human beings are born with a gift of playing guitar or drums or singing. lets take human interaction they say humans are born with a gift of connecting and communicating with other people.and you can look at any area that is more complex than everyday experience alone can give you a full understanding of you will see these same predictable sayings . just like automobile mechanics can be understood by breaking down each part. there is no area of interest or study that cannot be explained by this ,methodology called science and reason. so if we look at human behavior with the same flash light we would not say things like humans are good and evil that deserved to be rewarded and punished.now there is so much top be said about your question i am only scratching the surface but it is so complex i cannot begin to go into all the information here that can deal with it as far as removing laws and what we need to be able to but i hope you can take what i have provided and dig deeper in research yourself to unlock that knowledge for yourself

  432. Janeen Clark

    here is an experiment you can do relating to this area. take area of interest of reality or study or discipline that you yourself are well versed in and have a complete understanding of say its computers. now look around at all the people you know that only have knowledge of everyday experience no knowledge of how computers actually work and ask them their ideas and beliefs related to computers. if you have many areas of interest or study that you understand a complete picture of do this with many and see if a emerging pattern of human belief in those unaware develop. and finally after you write all that down pic an area you yourself are only knowledgeable based on your everyday experience write down your beliefs or ideas about that subject now fully examine and research that topic until you have covered it in its entirety and are confident their no missing pieces of how it works say DNA for example, than compare your beliefs and ideas about it before and after. you can take the experiment further if you like but trying to find an exception to your findings that deal with human knowledge of everyday experience without understanding a topic. this experiment can change you life forever by opening a new door of understanding that all your future evidence and facts and truth with be fully compatible with.

  433. Janeen Clark

    now, how does this have to do with laws and removing them and your question? well look at the laws specifically and the knowledge people have about the topic based on human experience alone say "violence" how many people have a full understanding of how violence works? and when they do not ,what are their opinions and beliefs and ideas about it based on their everyday experience? if you spent 9 months everyday fully researching all the variables in "violence" to put together a complete understanding, would you have the same ideas about it as someone who only has their everyday experience to form their ideas? well, you can see the result of the former experiment to answer that question, and you can research "violence" in its entirety and see if your understanding is same or not as human everyday experience.then take another law related to some other topic and repeat the process.

  434. Pete

    Hello Janeen, glad to see you back, read your comments, brilliant, been taking some of the usual, they think it upsets me.
    What I witnessed today in town in real life, upsets me.
    I'll be the first to admit I do sometimes become frustrated, so will point out a huge problem is with communication in our culture, with the paranoia and defensive way we can all project our beliefs - a massive reason the scientific method to societal decision making is a must.
    DigiWongaDude - you know my respect for you so I hope you read Janeen's replies properly, quite a detailed overview for you to digest there - this is really delving into environmental conditioning, the most important area to overcome in my opinion.
    I can't give this the justice it deserves like Janeen in words, so please read as it is intended.
    And to re-iterate there is plenty of info out there.
    I'll take an opportunity to make an apology to all now because in my own arrogance, I assumed all would be familiar with all work done by TVP and TZM.
    Personally because of own experience I first related to talks by Jacque Fresco, then moved onto TZM material after the Zeitgeist movies - there is now a very detailed book on the TZM website called The Zeitgeist Movement Defined, plus many other great people out there - seek and you shall find.
    It's really about own experience to fully understand but take all this on board then try to apply that to what we all see everyday.
    Depending on what type of world you would like to live in.
    Me, I don't like to see the stuff i did yet again today....

  435. Pete

    When you witness the stuff i do, most days, then you might understand.
    You can consider me boring all you like, just very serious on this issue.
    I do have a sense of humour, admittedly less so over the years now, but can still make my friends,family & others laugh, so long
    as not talking about this, unless I say things in a more amusing way.
    I made a homeless person smile and laugh today, and a group of teens.
    I don't know your age, your background or where you live - damn I'm starting to ramble again... So will leave it there except to be man enough to apologise if I've misunderstood your intentions or sense of humour - we are only human.
    Another reason we need something like, I don't know, an RBE....
    I'll lead this utopia for the good of all, you will do what I say - (now that was a joke)
    Sorry, couldn't resist.

  436. Achems_Razor

    Okay, I'll buy that, your attempt at humour was noted, have a good day Pete.

  437. GRUMPY

    To you what is violence? I seem to think that until you can determine the difference between violence and abuse or even a violent act and self defence your theory has many flaws. Who defines these acts and who determine them to be a particular act.
    By looking at the bigger picture you will see that if we break down this topic of violence there are many grey areas that would have to be addressed prior to anyone claiming to completely understand what can be deemed as violence. That could be said about any thing or subject you would like to study when we are examining social interaction.

    Considering that every nation has their own laws that may be simmular there is still differences that they each have with in there own beliefs and social expectation, so one can not apply the same standards every where

  438. Janeen Clark

    violence can be broken down and understood as a process beginning with thinking with language using semantics in the human mind. the process of violence starts with a human thinking in terms of reward and punishment while using the concept "to be" while referring to themselves or another human. an enemy image concept. if the violence is toward another the human will think of themselves as the "good" guy and the human in question the "evil" or "bad" guy that deserves to be punished because of framing the particular situation in question in a way of punishment and reward

    using semantics in the human thought process. once the thoughts continue on, the human feels a direct emotion response of the thought itself , not the situation itself. as the continuation of thoughts in an enemy image concept progress , the actions of the one thinking will feel direct emotion from their thoughts and their actions will be formed from the emotion (physical ,mental psychological or emotional violence),of the thoughts they had. this is because they have a poor methodology in the thought process and fail to correct the initial corrupted thought. which instead of forming the enemy image concept to instead correct the thought by thinking an observation of what happened in the situation instead of a diagnosis or a projection. next step is for the human correcting the thought to bring the mind the needs of theirs that the situation was causing not to be met and created the initial upset, once the human can identify the needs that were not met and analyses the observation of what happened to get them upset they will not be able to be angry, possibly sad because of the need not being met but anger is the alert system only once identified what the anger is a reference to specifically the anger will subside immediately, and the final step is to identify the needs the other individual was trying to meet by causing the situation in the first place so both parties can use co-operation to meet the needs of all individuals in the situation in order to solve and finalize the situation in a peaceful way and the best outcome which is meeting all the needs of all the individuals.

  439. Janeen Clark

    in review there is systemic violence (violence created from larger systems in place , the money system and government etc.) that create violence as their rule set the way they operate this type must be address at the system level. i have described violence in all its stages relation to origins in the human thought process , then expanding that thought process out into actions covering psychological violence, and physical violence. from its initial creation to its peak from gradual to the most violent. and the solution to deal with the violence by making it obsolete. violence is ignorance, manifested through several layers of escalation when the individual gets disconnected to the initial ignition of what upset them and then through thinking continues escalating until it reaches the most extreme violence. it is all one system and one process that depending on what situation it is ends at the different stages. by dealing with the situation through observation and correction of incorrect thinking ,and re-focusing attention to what is important to the individual in that situation it becomes possible to get them the result that will meet their needs and other needs of those in the situation,

  440. GRUMPY

    B*llshit straight up you have confused violence and abuse which are different. You haven't addressed the point of different countries and the acceptable behavour with in the different countries. If you had looked at this subject like you have presented you would understand that your thinking of what violence is, is wrong
    it seems you need to understand the definitions of what each is as I've explained you are mixing up the abuse and violence.
    It seems that until you address these differences you argument falls apart.

  441. GRUMPY

    To say violence is created from a larger system is flawed when we look at history, considering that violent act have been present well before money or government systems were put in place.
    Your statement has not really addressed the actual issue of violence all you have done is create an excuse for violence to be justified through greed and the need to govern any particular body people. To blame other systems rather than the act of violence it self is in no way addressing the problem.

    If you are correct when does an act become violence over survival. eg; When is killing which is a violent act become violence compared to survival. killing animals for food is by your theory is violence which would seem unjustified by your logic, yet with out it we would starve.

  442. Dan

    This documentary is a wind-up.

  443. Janeen Clark

    abuse is a form of violence how could it NOT be? as far as the rest i don't understand what information is contained within the way you use language.

  444. Janeen Clark

    sorry i can't make any sense of what you are typing , could you please use language and semantics in a way that can only have one meaning? if you write in a way that can mean 10 different things how am i supposed to know what you mean by what your writing?thank you.

  445. Janeen Clark

    violence is a process of causing harm . it has to be broken down to the beginning stages in a thought process i have outlined that thought process and how it then carries out into what we see as acts and actions, then for the separate aspect of systemic violence i have said it has to be addressed at the location of where the violence originates in the system, in a system like monetary system , the entire system is built from violence and cannot be altered to not generate violence. government is another system where its foundations goals the way it operates is built from violence the ground up there is no way to alter it so that it does not generate violence.they may be many other systems that are founded in violence systemically all you can do is remove these systems. there is no other possible form of violence possible in any way from the most minute to extreme other than what i have outlined in these 2 sections. violence regarding human interaction, as well as systemic violence.

  446. Janeen Clark

    any system built from violence as its foundation is , or a system that generates violence as part of its normal operation is called systemic violence this violence is a process of rules and functions of the operations of the system and its consequences on human beings, living creatures, or the planet. next you have violence that comes from human interaction that originates at the thought process escalates and becomes acts or actions.

  447. Janeen Clark

    any use of an enemy image thinking that is "good" guy "bad" guy or blaming someone etc. is the origin of violence in the thought process. the person is incorrect , the thought carry on into actions all the way to murder or end any way throughout the process of escalation as soon as the person realizes what is really happening that is they are creating a false story that the brain feels direct emotion from (anger) once they can be anchored back to reality by stating an observation in their mind of what initially happened they will defuse the process of violence and be able to resolve the situation by meeting the needs of all people involved in the situation. this is violence regarding human interaction.

  448. Janeen Clark

    people cannot be angry about something that happens .they get angry when something happens AND they think up a storyline about the situation using reward and punishment and enemy image thinking, that means not considering all variables of the situation.

  449. Janeen Clark

    as far as what your saying about
    "

    ...when does an act become violence over survival.
    eg; When is killing which is a violent act become violence compared to
    survival. ........."

    this does not make sense to me .violence and survival share nothing in common i see no boundary line where confusion over which one is happening could ever occur.
    have you ever seen a person kill an animal because "he did me wrong" or "he was my enemy" or "he deserved it because blah balh " or because of revenge or retribution? violence shares all these enemy image thought constructs.survival does not. now systemic violence against animals COULD occur depending on the system in charge of killing for food and how it specifically runs and operates.nevertheless violence is far to complex to be an action , violence is a process and actions are a result of the process which goes in escalation from mild to severe all the same identical process along the way of thinking and problem solving. a failure to account for all details in the situation.

  450. GRUMPY

    Violence is behavior or treatment in which physical force is exerted for the purpose of causing damage or injury.
    Abuse is defined as the systematic pattern of behaviors in a
    relationship that are used to gain and/or maintain power and control
    over another.
    Although abuse can lead to violence that is not always the case eg; She is continually abusing her position or authority by getting other people to do things for her. or The crowd started to abuse him after he missed his attempt at the goals.

    With all your ranting on this subject I find it hard that you don't understand that different countries have different cultures and what you and I may consider a violent act they may consider normal, so that being the case they would not consider that as violence. eg; we would think that hitting an animal a violent act but in the middle east they think that they have the right to hit and treat their animals however they want and to them that is not violence.

  451. GRUMPY

    To your question have I ever seen a person kill an animal because "he did me wrong" . Yes I have when a dog bite that person when the dog was trying to protect his food, that person went a got his gun and shot him. By all accounts that could be defined as a violent act.

  452. GRUMPY

    By you using these word you have there are many ways to take what you have said but then you show that you can't do the same so is this just a case of to pot calling the kettle black.

    Edit; and I didn't need a half a dozen post of rambling to reply could you show the same respect

  453. Janeen Clark

    way to narrow view of it to account for all the variables.

  454. Janeen Clark

    you ask a question required a full explanation then when you get it you whine and cry about it , very informative.

  455. Janeen Clark

    this is your example of survival hmmm?

  456. Janeen Clark

    makes zero sense and reality does not match up with it based on several areas of study and considering all variables.

  457. Janeen Clark

    corruption and domination are ignorance. if people had the information about all related variables , and systems backing them up that did not create corruption and domination as well as being impossible systemically, we would see corruption and domination obsolete, you cannot fathom this from a "every day experiance" based knowledge of corruption and domination. you have to research every aspect and variable until you understand them entirely. what you have described about them is just based on a regular person everyday experiance and thoughts not breaking down to every last varible and understanding in full detail how they exist in reality. once every human is taught about them in full detail they would be obsolete.

  458. Janeen Clark

    there's no evidence to make those connections. the evidence shows any competitive system pins people against each other with "winners" and "losers" this is what competition teaches . it teaches you and makes you treat anyone but your family and friends as enemies and think of them in a way where for you to "win" they have to "lose" that is the rule -set of that game . the evidence shows exactly why that is also because large groups of people cannot form up and be like family and strong and united with that kind of conditioning rendering useless against the domination of government and the domination of money. you can get evidence by the schools that teach it with grades ,you can get evidence from the films and tv that teach it with the chosen language and semantics of compartmentalization into the "good" guy "evil " guy thinking . if we lived in a universe where the only corruption and domination we saw from human beings was what the systems in place purposely created, it would look identical to this one.

  459. dewflirt

    Disagreeing with you and agreeing with others is not bullying, I haven't picked on you, told you your views are pathetic or accused you of being unable to think for yourself. My tactic of picking and responding to one small part of your comment is nothing but a practicality, your posts are long :) Nor do I ridicule what you post, I'm simply answering your assertions with my own, you present yourself as a spokesman for the topic so naturally, people will question what you say. If you're used to that, why get so frustrated? If our line of questioning is predictable, why are there no clear answers yet? You allude to your personal life and point out that there is more to you than I can understand. Fair enough, but that kind of goes without saying and is, i expect, true for everyone here. I'm not judging your comments in the context of your life, how could i? And if thats the only way that they make sense, how would they be relevant to anyone else? What else? Do I care? Endlessly, about pretty much everything and everyone, and I'd rather people had a good spat over tea and biscuits than cause havoc with a half baked ideology. Also cheaper than TVP which has spent a fortune and achieved only CGI as far as I can tell.

  460. Pete

    Hi Dewflirt, my last post to you was OTT, before my attempt at humour. Had a couple of days off since then from my laptop at home. - this deep stuff can do your head in.
    Any way, it wasn't anything personal, just pointing out the herd mentality that does happen in our society, etc.

    Been noticing so much in my new job, it's not that bad but to make a point for any one reading, think about work on your state of mind, mine is no where near as stimulated as it was and not having the same enjoyment in this as I was - we should only work in those things we are interested or want to contribute in, not because we have to earn money - the whole point of RBE from the individuality perspective.

    Your last point is very good Dewflirt, myself and Janeen have covered this so to re-iterate, forget about TVP, all this CGI does make you think at first look, no chance of that, myself included but I took the time to listen to the message and personal experience helped me identify with it.
    TVP's CGI is just an example of one man's vision of what could be possible. Imagine what many great people could do, working together!

    In reality though it's not going to happen any time soon but us believers can try to create awareness for what it's worth.

    Enough rambling for one day -all the best, I'm enjoying a fair few well earned beers now, that's my escape.

  461. dewflirt

    See, tea and biscuits, and the odd pint. Have fun and stay away from the kebabs ;)

  462. owl

    Global warming. Is this something which many blindly accept now without questioning the observable facts? Better snuggle up for another cold winter! Looking forward to a nice hot summer too! Enjoy everyone, the Earth's weather is just fine. Smile

  463. Ralph Walker

    The guy never said that all violence would be gone. He just said that there is a better way. To me the RBE system is better and would have LESS crime and LESS of other issue. He never said perfection or heaven on earth. Any argument should then be, can we can do better? If so, can it be done in the current system? If it cannot be done in the current system , what other system would be suitable for us and the world environment? Thats it! I think we all know this system is broken. If you don't think so then just remember there are 7 billion people on this planet and we produce enough food for 11 billion. 17000 children starve to death each day.

  464. over the edge

    That is all well and good. Please explain how the resources and property will be collected from the people/governments/people who own them? Because if force is involved then count me out. Also please show me the working technology and infrastructure to make the claims of RBE possible. If the tech and systems do not exist yet then we are not ready for RBE. It is unrealistic to believe all countries will join at the start. So also please answer me how it is possible if the resourses needed are held by countries that do not wish to join? I have many more questions that require real answers that can be achieved today before my support is given.

  465. Ralph Walker

    questions, thats all good. Think i would be weird if you didn't actually. i asked a lot of questions and i still do. there are lots of questions and lots of documentaries that answer or at least try to answer most questions. i don't think i can personally answer that question. I do know for a fact that most progress is hindered by lack of education by the general public on what is possible and the real state of technological development. I don't think that the current state of things would be tolerated most knew what is now currently possible. so i personally think its about educating people to those possibilities.

  466. Ralph Walker

    btw lots of forcing is done right now. in this current system. the pc, phone or whatever we all use has a lot of force and you or i cant count our selves out of that. All those sweat shops, children in mines and all others that makes this world go round. again in the RBE i dont think all force will be wiped out but i do think it would be less..far less.

  467. over the edge

    "I do not know" is a valid answer. I have watched many docs on this subject and actually was almost a supporter when the Vanus Project was released. But sadly when i asked for or looked for specifics everything went sour. I admire the goals, but they are relying too much on as of yet non existent tech and a swing in human behavior that I find unrealistic.

  468. over the edge

    I agree that there is lots of force going on now. But we are discussing a solution to these problems. You are doing exactly what these docs do. Pointing out problems with the system(s) we have today does not make RBE any more acheiveable or better. Maybe you are right that less force will be a result of RBE. These films state that but never actually back it up with anything concrete. Also I believe the force required to get to the point to implement RBE would be horrific.

  469. Ralph Walker

    well i dont think the RBE will be first choice. We'll try to patch up this system as much as possible. The same time lots of people will suffer because its a dying system. All that has nothing to do with the RBE. Thats all part of capitalism in its dying moments. dog eat dog is the only real rule. Thats just the last moments of almost any system or nation. With or without RBE this will happen. truth is, we are already halfway there and we don't even know it. The thing is that our reluctance to accept that change is the only constant is the only reason people will suffer. when an old relative dies i don't think they blame it on the newborn of the family. capitalism had its time when it was useful, but that time has come and gone.

  470. Ralph Walker

    you are looking for answers that cant be given. only time can tell. when capitalism was put forward it was just a really rough idea. nothing close to specific on any matter. they just knew that they would have to figure the rest out. i know of nothing that works out first time exactly how we wanted or even expected to. most or almost all progress is trial and error. actually the RBE is far more detailed than the idea of capitalism. capitalism has a lot to do with hope that it all works out for everyone in the end. thing is we went along with that no problem. RBE they have a small group engineers trying to answer how every bulb, clock or bus is going to work before people actually see this system as doable. I dont even mind that because i do believe those are the real questions that will better the world but at the same we go along with a system that elects people that only talk about stuff they most of the time don't do. Nothing even close to specific most of the time.. like ending poverty or getting more jobs or this idea or that idea while everything goes to nothing.

  471. Pete

    Nice to read your comments, put a lot into this myself. Not been back for a while but was not surprised to see the same old questions and concerns. They are right but yet so wrong...
    Until our species awakens I guess we will never know the potential and true freedom many of us realise we are throwing away in the name of profit, of property, of maintaining a system that threatens all we've achieved.
    Is this RBE the answer? Well in comparison to the status quo, there is none.
    It is simply about humanity waking up, moving forward to put our primitive ways behind us, to sustain our planet, our civilisation for the betterment of all..
    I don't truly believe it can or will ever happen such is the deep rooted belief and denial of truth in current system and sadly if some form of RBE is to emerge I fear the control over us might be worse, in that true RBE will not be allowed to happen.
    I think so many will never, ever look past this monetary paradigm we seem to be trapped within, probably until the bitter end.
    At least at that point, there were those of us that tried.
    All the best to you.
    I wont give up on the RBE true reality we all deserve for what it's worth - shame the deniers are so many and we are so few...

  472. ali ba

    i have a very simple yet effective way to push this through the system. firstly you need everyone who is in support of this sort of change to link up with each other. when you have established this you need to start a political party (i dont know if its works the same in other countries,but this is what you need to do in the netherlands). From here its critical to have all people to start lobbying with the people in their community.(note: its also important to have someone who can give great speeches). once you have done all this you will get elected, but its important to get the majority. once you have the majority you can push this through the system and if it works it will create a snowball effect around the world since people in other countries will start revolting to get the same system in their country. Now you might think yeah its easy to say this but getting it done is a whole lot tougher. all i can say to this is look at what hitler did, and i can add to this that is has been examined if its still posible in our time to get people to hate a certain type of people and it is..... so if thats possible i think that this will be even easier since the people are already unhappy with how things are going now.

    what i also would like to add is that one of the things that keeps people from actually really getting to try and change things is by letting people think that it is impossible to change something even though they want to. For example (this actually really happened); there is a poll on if people want to have the euro and the results are that the majority doesn't want the euro and want to keep their current valuta (gulden at the time). Despite the results the government pushes the euro through the system and makes it the new valuta. You would think that people would say hey wait a minute i'm not having this the results clearly stated that the majority doesn't want this and we live in a democracy. What actually tends to happen is that people will think well okay it's already here and there is nothing that we can do about it so let it be.That's absolutely crazy and i'm certain that most of you people can think of a similar example in your country.

    the point i'm trying to make is that only even thinking that it is possible to change a certain thing, in which you feel powerless, actually makes a huge difference. the thought of even having the slightest chance of making a change gives you hope and a boost to the morale. And if you look at wars the best move that you can have is taking the hope of your enemy away, so us having hope makes a huge difference in this ordeal ( and i have faith in us changing the world we are living in right now)

    peace!!

  473. Haut

    Getting fed up with Jew media

  474. Brad Haaf

    Transition is simply done by creating communities off grid that can help support basic needs when civilization collapses. How to do this is easily attained by anyone who wishes to through developed technologies Earthships, Permaculture, Renewable energy, Aquaponics, Mechatronics, Robotics, Automation and so on.. if you truly want to make a better world the easiest way would be to develop a sustainable business model leveraging these technologies so you can minimize the suffering when civilization collapses. With exponential technologies expanding the areas of life they affect almost as fast as their developing time is short yet they are also making off grid living dirt cheap.

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