Yes, and that’s the problem. The combatants here are not atheists. They take religion very seriously and are not going to end this conflict by surrendering their beliefs. The core of this conflict is not about national rights of the so-called Palestinians. It’s not about water rights or trade.
Can you understand how one who has followed this dispute can tire of the phony claims of the Palestinians (actually Jordanians) and the rest of the Moslem world?
“What about the dome of the rock (earliest Islamic structure!) or the fact that Jerusalem used to be the old Mecca?!”

Go to the Koran and do a word search for Jerusalem or in fact, Jerusalem by any other name and you will find nothing.
Go to t the Jewish bible (the Old Testament) and you will find Jerusalem in almost every chapter.
Yes, originally Mohammed viewed Jerusalem as holy and worshipped toward it. Originally, he took almost all his beliefs from Judaism, including the dietary laws. But when he was in control of Medina (Yathrib) during the war with the Meccans he signed a pact with the Jews who were predominant in the city. However, very quickly he tried to impose
his new religion which was a plagiarized form of Judaism on the Jews. The Jews then switched loyalties to the Meccans during the battle of the trench in 627. Mohammed won the battle and massacred the Jews. The first recorded Moslem atrocity of which there would be many others. He then disavowed Jerusalem and since that time Jerusalem
played almost no role in Islam. It is a Moslem belief that Mohammed ascended to heaven at this dome of the rock which almost happens to be the ruins of the second temple. But it’s not mentioned in the Koran
and in fact the location where this alleged ascent occurred is speculation.
From 1949 t0 1967 when Jordan occupied East Jerusalem and forcibly expelled the Jewish population
(East Jerusalem was the centuries old Jewish quarter.) The Jews were denied access to the Kotel, the western Wall until Jerusalem was liberated in 1967. When it was liberated there were many orthodox Jews who
wanted the mosque torn down and the third temple erected. The Israeli government refused because it hoped to end the conflict and return most of the lands in exchange for recognition of Israel as a Jewish state.
The mole answer was the Khartoum declaration declaring eternal war with Israel.
To be brief Israel has made every effort for peace, in 1999 Olmert offer Arafat almost everything the Palestinians wanted but was immediately refused. Arafat didn’t even try to negotiate. Even Clinton, no real friend of Israel, blamed Arafat for refusing and prolonging the conflict.
The so-called Palestinians have been treated as second-class citizens in every Moslem country they are in.
They are being used as a foil to destroy Israel because the Moslems believe Israel to be a heretic state in a mole sea. Lest you think this antipathy is confined only to Jews, the Grand Mufti of
Saudi Arabia called for the expulsion of all Christians from Jerusalem. In every Moslem country Christians have been fleeing. The only Middle Eastern country where they are entering is the only Middle Eastern country where all religions are free to practice, Israel.
The Palestinians refuse to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. They view any peace accord with Israel as only a first step in the destruction of the Jewish state. The tragedy is that this phony cause, this false national movement, has gained credence through years of mass murder, terror,
lies, and with the help of oil money, large mole populations, and anti Semitism under the euphemistic phrase of “oh I’m just against Israel’s policies” has had gained credence.

ok lets first quickly look at my post you distilled down to their basic fallacies;

“[What about them?] Yet again i think we both agree there is alot of inexcuseable terrorism directed at israel and the jews, You can stop listing them we agree. Thats in fact what makes mediating this situation so tricky; the arabs being so damn crazy. Ah but why mediate peace when your plan to go beyond walls and just “annihilate” the problem sounds so brilliant!! The funny thing is that sounds alot like the Hamas plan for Israel. But your od course morally much better then those “pack of liars and murderious monsters” right :).”

I think that was pretty clear in saying how do we move beyond that reality to peace. And that you saying we should “annihilate” the problem has ominous overtones on the same morall level as hamas. They often call for the “annihilation” of israel. What the hell do they mean by that I think. Politically destroying of physically destroying.Its a creepy thing to say. I was OBVIOUSLY pointing out your “annihilate” comment was creepy just like hamas talking about israel and asking you to expand on it. (i cant say im shocked you didn’t) You just thought it was some direct challenge?….distill again.

Sooo ya…. i was telling you i understood your position and agreed that many palestinians are bad and want to destroy israel but you just want to tell me there bad AGAIN.

“Thats in fact what makes mediating this situation so tricky; the arabs being so damn crazy.”

i cant help ignore tha fact you sidestepped my central point on your last post as well.

“The understandable and right decision to crack down and checkpoint/wall in areas to stop crazed cowardly suicide bombers from killing scores of civilians has created a ghettoised population with a feeling of inferiority thats breeding MORE suicide bombers. You seem to get very upset and list attacks and parrot palestinians are bad when i say this.

Plz elaborate on your “act while Israel
still has a military advantage” perhaps pointing out(defend your points?) why it would not be a stupid overly hawkish thing to do that would result in more terrorist attacks against israel and a complete loss of the U.S. support that gave you that millitary advantage in the first place!”

(again no response despite your eagerness to correct me on the cia thing..that i was indeed wrong about)

but ya on that post i would just say it looks like we both support a 2 state solution? :)

“Maybe this will sound amazing to you, but the Jews accepted the partition plan of 1947.”

“Yes, Arabs were displaced but it was their fault. Amazing isn’t it?”

aah..so all the people LIVING there when the U.N. created israel where displaced but it was THERE fault…ok…you know i can agree with that if you clarify arabs as arab leaders. And that NEITHER side complied fully with the U.N.(wikipedia) Of course with the Arabs starting it all by not accepting the UN mandate and being so crazy. But i think you would agree that was entirely predictable stance hence my “Placing a “haven” for already prosecuted Jews after WW2 in the most holy/contested place in the world was..not smart” quote……it wasnt.

“It was the Jewish homeland centuries before there
was an Islam and millennia before there were any modern nation”

sigh..you can understand how an atheist migh tire of those claims.

Do jews have a better claim to jarusalem then arabs? YES. Does/ should that matter in 1940′s policy making..yes but 2 a limit. Using biblical quotes to prove that is a slippery slope. I think il just say be very carefull about REAL historical evidence and BIBLICAL quotes. That of course im applying equal to the arabs and christians.

“the mole reverence for Jerusalem and the Al Asia mosque is very recent”

What about the dome of the rock (earliest islamic structure!) or the fact that jarusalem used to be the old mecca?! Or the fact thet religions have very little to do wit hhistory anyway. My point being perhaps all 3 religions have good reason to view the site as holy. For example should i beleive the korans version of king solomon or the torahs? :)

The cia, what are you talking about?? The state department and
just about all other American agencies were opposed to the creation
of Israel for reasons ranging from anti-Semitism (rife in the state department then) to a legitimate belief that the Jews didn’t have a chance. Harry Truman recognized Israel over many objections.
But no military aid was given to the Jews in the war of liberation

About 15% of the people living there were Jews during the mandate.
There would have been more but British restricted Jewish emigration when Jews needed it most at the behest of the Arabs who were also accepting money and support from the Nazis.

Maybe this will sound amazing to you, but the Jews accepted the partition plan of 1947. Neither side liked it but it would have brought peace and leave most of the populations in place.
The Arabs chose war and vowed to drive out the Jews.
Instead the Arabs lost and there were Arabs displaced instead of Jews.
And now the Arabs have the nerve to complain when they were planning to drive all the Jews, including the Jewish groups who had been living there for centuries. Yes, Arabs were displaced but it was their fault. Amazing isn’t it?
Of course there is the small matter of 750,000 Jews being forcibly displaced from
Arab lands, 600,00 settled in Israel. but Jews don’t count only Arabs do.

“Placing a “haven” for already prosecuted Jews after WW2 in the most holy/contested place in the world was..not smart”
I
srael is the biblical homeland of the Jews. It was the Jewish homeland centuries before there
was an Islam and millennia before there were any modern nation. The Jewish nation was one of the few
that rose against Roman tyranny, not once but twice. And for two thousand years were prevented from
going back. Since the crusades the Christians have given up the idea of a Christian nation beingestablished there. All they ask is to be given access to their holy sites, which Israel grants.
The mole reverence for Jerusalem and the Al Asia mosque is very recent. Jerusalemis not mentioned in the Koran and was in bad disrepair when under Arab control.
The fact that you don’t care about its religious significance doesn’t make its significance irrelevant. There are people who don’t care about freedom, but that doesn’t diminish freedoms importance to Americans

“Looks like your parroting the same point again there walterr44. I can see where this “debate” is going to go with someone as close minded as you.”

Indeed. Since your first response in 4 posts to ANY of my points was to just clearly quote me out of context! I got your position the first time and..you know typed something based on what you said.You need to defend youself dude.

For example you cant deny people where displaced when israel was created walterr, as amazing as this must sound to you there where people living there when the cia gave the jews that land, it wasnt completly empty. And they where not all nazi terrorists.

Placing a “haven” for already prosecuted jews after WW2 in the most holy/contested place in the world was..not smart on the part of the cia (all my jewish friends agree on that one; cuz its obvious)

What right do the jews have to palestine when muslims and christians also claim it. (i say this as a atheist observer)

The understandable and right decision to crack down and checkpoint/wall in areas to stop crazed cowardly suicide bombers from killing scores of civilians has created a ghettoised population with a feeling of inferiority thats breeding MORE suicide bombers. You seem to get very upset and list attacks and parrot palestinians are bad when i say this.

Plz elaborate on your “act while Israel
still has a military advantage” perhaps pointing out(defend your points?) why it would not be a stupid overly hawkish thing to do that would result in more terrorist attacks against israel and a complete loss of the U.S. support that gave you that millitary advantage in the first place!

The modern term Palestinian was invented by Amin Huysani, the grand mufti of Jerusalem from1922 to 1936. According to arch terrorist Yassir Arafat he is the spiritual and political founder of this “Palestinian movement.
Amin huysani organized the Hansar division of the WAffen SS

Let me quote an excerpt from Hamas charter 1988 chapter 7
“The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!

Let me quote you
“But your od course morally much better then those “pack of liars and murderious monsters” right :).”

RIGHT!! a thousand times right. Annihilating the Jewish state is their goal.
The whole concept of a Palestinian nation was twisted brain child of Huysani
and his goal was to exterminate Jews :(

It’s time for israel to learn from the mistakes of Munich and act while Israel
still has a military advantage. Already Arab oil and the sheer number of muslims have poisoned public opinion with their tsunamis of lies.

It is immoral not to defend your citizens when it is clear that there is an enemy resolutely seeking to massacre you.

P.s. To spell this out to you “annihilating” the palestinians would of course involve a massive running battle betweem hamas and the IDF resulting in a nasty conflict with TONS of katushen rockets being lobbed into israel. And besides the global reaction to civilian deaths and the fact that israel would even do that would end a large part of the critical us/israel military co-operation.

Looks like your parroting the same point again there walterr44. I can see where this “debate” is going to go with someone as close minded as you.

“But the focus should not be who is to blame or who killed more x at this point.” Did you EVEN READ my post. I AGREE THAT HAMAS IS VERY VERY BAD. A smart person concentrates on the motivation of both sides and how to create PEACE. People like you blindly commenting “oh there worse then us so OUR action are all ok” is EXACTLY why this is hard to solve.

Religion has been agruing over palestine for thousands of years (i assume,walterr44, u know this). What im not so sure if you know is that just after world war 2 lots of jews where going to palestine and getting turned back by the british so the UN set up a new mandate plan for jerusalem and arabs to have 2 seperate states around jarusalem. The jews accepted…the arabs didn’t. The old conflict just rolled on; They started to attack the jews and they counterattacked. THE DAY before the mandate was to run out Ben-Gurion anounced the creation of israel.So the palestinians DO have a POINT when they whine about there land being taken away by the jews .IT WAS. Does that excuse terrorism of any sort,of course not. But the truth walter is neither side respected the UN…they just dived into a very old conflict. Both sides religion is to blame. Palestinians..arabs..who cares what you call them…saying they should be wiped out doesnt make you sound very smart.

Here is an excerpt from the Hamas Charter of 1988 chapter 7
“The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!”

Fatah’s charter 1968
“The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine.”
So it’s clear when you strip this trash of its phony rhetoric about imperialist that Fatah has no real intention of accepting a two state solution and living in peace in Israel.

The problem with Israel is that it has been too restrianed in
reacting to the atrocities of the Islamofascist palestinians.
Any other country, when faced with such an amoral homicidal enemy
would have annihilated them and not try fruitless negogiations
with a pack of liars and murderious monsters.

In 1999 Olmert offered Arafat almost everything he wanted but
Arafat summarily rejected it. Even sleazebag Bill Clinton, no great
friend of Israel, blamed the Palestinians for rejecting the offer.

I agree with you that other arabs have been very bad to the palistinians.And that there is a ton of weird lies in the arab sphere out there.

But the focus should not be who is to blame or who killed more x at this point. The current situation on the ground has the IDF repressing the people of palestine, which makes them fight back with terror, which in turn makes the Israelis target the perpetrators and lock down supplies to the west bank even more, which in turn makes the palestinians feel more repressed and teh entire cycle starts again.

Perhaps you should get the C.I.A to displace the argentinians that have been living there for 4 generations then call it the “palistinians home” and see if thats a good idea…

Yes the Palesinians bombed a school bus and many other civilian
targets. they make martyrs out of the killers.
Muslims most certainly target children, not just jewish
children but their own. how many mosques were blown up
with worshippers inside by other moslems. The fight between
Shi’ite and Sunni has killed more Moslem civilians than any Israeli action.

The so called Palestinians should settle in argentina. Maybe there
they won’t be subject to apartheid from the other arabs who have
confined them to camps and treat them as an underclass

Yes we shall overcome, all the Arab lies.