Beneath The Veil
An anonymous woman, covered from head to toe in a blue burka, is dragged across a football pitch and shot in front of 30,000 spectators. This haunting image of Taliban justice was filmed secretly in Channel 4′s award-winning documentary Beneath the Veil broadcast in June 2001. The woman was Zarmina, 35-year-old mother of seven. In a new Dispatches film, Lifting the Veil, Carla Garapedian went to Afghanistan to discover her story and see whether women’s lives have improved since the fall of the Taliban.
After a secret trial, Zarmina was jailed with her six-month-old twins. They were confined to one room for three years. She confessed that her husband, Alozai, had discovered she had committed adultery saying: ‘He said, “Tomorrow I will go to the Taliban and they will stone you to death.” That night I was afraid. I hit him over the head with a mallet.’
Money could have saved Zarmina’s life. The final Supreme Court ruling stated that her life would have been spared if she paid 10,000 dirhams ($8,000 dollars) to her seven children for the loss of their father. But she had no money. Under Taliban law, Zarmina was judged by her own children. Children often participated in Taliban justice and witnessed executions. Alozai’s brother brought the couple’s children to court. Zarmina’s mother says: ‘They were always beating the children to say their mother had killed.’ (Excerpt from channel4.com)
Watch the full documentary now
This is so sad! These women and children are suffering so much. Also the innocent civillians do not deserve this. Good documentary!
salam to all beloved muslim , brother ,and sister . well , i have somthing to say , islam is not like this . woman in islam has got right to work and feed her kids and participate in her society . yet , what we see in this film is horrible , woman are worse then animals , this is not islammm.
may allah give them the right sight .
salam alah alaikom wb
Stunning!!
These atrocities have to stop!! People there need help and the international community should better liberate them and give them peace rather than build football stadiums!!
So sad to see innocent people killed so ruthlessly, when will God be able to stop the misery?
well done. This isn’t a movie against Islam (per se); but a movie about human rights. Please tell others about this
This is totally a misleading documentary!! Playing sounds of violin and editing it in such a way to make the uninformed person draw the desired conclusion.
1) Yes, the justice system of the Taliban is barbaric and crude, but they don’t do it with any more different motive than the U.S where prisoners are executed. The only difference here is the method! That they do it in public for all to see as required by their religion. It is not mentioned what crimes the woman was accused of!
2) The Taliban treatment and view of women is backward, and that is how it has been and still is in many muslim and non-muslim countries. It wasn’t long ago that woman were not considered a “person” in the west. So they are behind? Due to economics?
3) The documentary is too eager to show the injustice without putting it into context, so the Afghans are now a victim of it.
4) They are not doing this to be evil!
Casan – Good afternoon. I think you are in an army of 1.
We see a difference between “them” and “us”.
It seems you are impressed at your ability to argue a point. That may well be, but choose your battles carefully. This one you will lose. The phrase “get over yourself” comes to mind.
You say “It is not mentioned what crimes the woman was accused of!” – it says adultery in the movie. In the west, adultery is punished by personal guilt and possible divorce, but it is dealt with as a private matter not requiring external moral governance.
Your views are accurate to a point. They are not doing it to be evil. Possibly. Possibly not, but none of that makes the western viewer feel an affinity towards the Taliban. It is their actions, and the impact of their actions that they are concerned with, and not their motivations. That is their own business.
When dealing with subjects that involve unequivocal barbarity, it is always good to condemn it, and then put in a full stop. The main issue that people will argue with you on is the word “but”.
When condemning such barbarity to fellow humans, regardless of cultural differences, the word “but” always signals that the author has not understood the magnitude of repulsion that people feel. For example, “I like ****, but……..”, or “I know Hitler was bad, but….”. A full stop always helps get the point across.
Yes, they may not be evil, and yes, they have a totally different culture. The answer in the west to that is “so what”?. None of that means that we have acceptance of it. It just will not happen. Except maybe Bradford, UK.
Secondly, if you can find me a documentary or film, that does not edit the film to the music, to produce the desired effect, then please show me. Every film maker does it. Even silence says something. ALL editing produces a desired effect. It is part of their art, and helps to drive home their message. Because this is their message, and not yours. If you do not like it, then make your own film. I think you will find it impossible to make without having any personalized editorial input.
But the idea that film makers can’t use music to achieve a result is the type of thinking the Taliban promote. It is, to say the least, a quite juvenile and immature comment. I apologize for the dressing down, but I am happy to be challenging you on it.
I think to accuse the watchers of being “uniformed” is exceptionally ironic, and a wee tad arrogant. There are others in this world, other than yourself, who are allowed to hold a point of view, possibly different from your own. That position does not necessarily make them “uninformed”. I am sure the viewers have watched this, and made up their mind about the situation based not only on this film, but in conjunction with all the other information they have gathered on the subject throughout their life.
But it would be wise to understand that the West are not going to come around to the Talibans way of thinking. They have jobs, lives, children, and other subjects that interest them. They can only be expected to devote a small amount of their time to this problem, and the jury has come in. Indeed, most people have little interest in Taliban culture. To us, as you insinuated, the Taliban are a backward, brutal regime of thugs, destabilizing the region, and preventing recovery and growth in Afghanistan, and it is the evident conclusion the West have reached.
This film I think confirmed their views, rather than changed them.
Talibans way of thinking is barbaric criminal and inhumane, it’s a disagrees to the human race.
I applaud the French president to ban women for covering their face,otherwise we would soon impose our countries to the Taliban laws
barbaric brutality …. they are Stuck in religion n Gods . . .
Hello Big Dipper. A round of applause for your oh so kind and well-meaning “dressing down” of Casan. Also kudos fot the arrogance, the condescencion, and the hypocrisy. Bravo. You are the prime example of the type of people who are at the heart of the world’s inability to come to terms with its diversity. The phrase “get over yourself” applies to you, and you only. Let me elaborate.
You arrogantly dismiss all notion that the Taliban culture carries any validity simply because you, a westerner, deem it “barbaric and cruel”. You, who have not lived through generations of Muslims, who have not understood perhaps why some (and I say some, because every culture has flaws) things are necessary and acceptable, are hardly qualified to pronounce judgement. What really kills me is that you try to justify your downright bias against a foreign culture with some sort of moral and ethical argument. I would respect you more if you outright stated that you are against them because you disagree with their way of life. That your morals, not universal in any regard, do not allow a culture like theirs to exist, and you, a crusader of western thought, will change it to suit your own beliefs. This is, at least, an honest assessment. Your pretension as to Muslim culture being “barbaric and cruel” in some universal manner is, frankly, ridiculous and short-sighted. Bloody hell, the western culture has had and still has no fewer atrocities in a moral sense that does theirs!
Understand, murder is morally reprehensible in every society. However, it is also an accepted part of life in every culture. We westerners, do we shudder at the thought of how many human beings our soldiers slaughtered today? We don’t have a clue. Why is this? Because we feel what our soldiers do is justified. Justified by our own moral code. What the Taliban do is also justified, by their own moral code. Murder is the end result in both cases. Are you attempting to say our murder is more justifiable than theirs?
At least take the high ground and call ALL murder barbaric. But…then WE become just as much in the wrong as they. The plot thickens. Oh, and let me remind you that the woman in the video KILLED HER HUSBAND WITH A HAMMER because she could not take responsibility for her own behaviour. The old proverb states “eye for an eye”. Justifiable? Certainly, for premeditated murder. In so many cases, this type of judgement would be an excellent deterrent. Repeat offenders in murder and sexual assault come to mind.
You say this barbarism must be condemned and “put to a full stop”. Ironic, because the United States in Iraq attempted to do exactly that, no matter what their motives were. And for years now a sizable portion of the Iraqi population wants them out, risks death every day to remove America from Iraq. Are they ignorant and misguided? Didn’t they simply want to be saved from all this oppression? What about the girls who demand the right to cover their face while living in Western countries? Are they misguided as well? Do they need to be taught a lesson in justice by forcing them to obey our enlightened rules? Isn’t THIS the essence of barbarism, this total lack of consideration for the beliefs of other cultures, the foolish surety that our own view is universally right, and theirs wrong?
I was also raised and endorse the western way of life. However, I am willing to admit that we may be wrong in labeling these people, who have lived for centuries in a completely different environment, both physical and social, “barbaric”, and “cruel”. Where our focus must lie is in eradication of radical groups who perform wanton violence, yet keep firmly in mind that these groups are present not only in their, but also in our culture.
AmadeoXI,
Well done! I simply needed here to tell you that. I truly enjoyed in reading your post. If such attitude prevailed in our world, we would be living in a more peaceful one right now. On the other hand, it’s so easy to condemn something one doesn’t understand (and Big Dipper doesn’t seem to even try to understand). Bravo! :-)
AmadeoXI – I have to say, there is nothing you have written on the subject I don’t agree with. My point stays the same tho. The culture of the Taliban (not afghanistan, or the muslim culture, but just the Taliban) will never mix. We do see the regime as barbaric. I see the regime as barbaric.
Despite your mail, that will not change. It is how the people view it, it is how I view it.
You wrote:
“We westerners, do we shudder at the thought of how many human beings our soldiers slaughtered today?”
Totally. You’re not going to find a bigger antiwar guy than me. I was in Egypt for two years, and during that time the war kicked off. I was ashamed. Totally. I no longer live in the UK now. I guess my motivations are childish, but I am happy where I am and I can’t bring myself to want to live there anymore. I love and miss my family. I see them less often than I would like. So I don’t think I need convincing of was the war bad or not. And that goes for the whole shabang, the mother ship of which is Palestine. I am like everyone else who thinks and reads. I feel helpless. UN resolution after resolution, with no-one willing to stand up and tell the Israeli’s to back off. The West is too silent. It is an invasion, and responsible borders need to be recognized by Israel. It makes me angry too that the army in Israel is paid for by the US. If they have such power, why don’t they quietly remind them of that and get them to behave. And like us all, I feel helpless, which makes me angry.
And I do not think the Taliban represent the Muslim community world wide. So lets put that aside. Because for this conversation, it is irrelevant. My comment is on the Taliban.
And they are a brutal regime, backward in thought and bullying in their tactics. They just are. My thoughts on that will not change, and I think I have a good handle on what others think too, not that it of any concern, but it verifies my opinion that I do not see others as changing their view either. The Taliban is just not mixing well with the Western culture. Like the black full veil burka. It just isn’t going cross. And there is where the conflict lies in relation to the cultures.
But in terms of the justice of it all, I think we have more in common than you think. It isn’t black and white. There are ******** on all sides. I think the Taliban represent one of those sides.
I am sorry we haven’t hit it off, but I respect your thoughtful comments, and your desire to want to engage. I come in peace.
WTC7 – I do try to understand, I really do. The site is amazing and Vlatko does an amazing job. I think he really wants people to engage, as this is what it is all about. It is nice to hear AXI’s point of view and that he speaks your voice. But I am not aggressive, and would also be happy to engage on the subject with you. I do respect your opinion, and I honestly mean that.
WTC7 – thank you, I’m glad to hear you agree with my views.
Big Dipper,
My comments weren’t directed at your personally, and of course no personal offence was meant. When I argue, I argue with heat; it is only natural when one feels strongly about a subject. Now that I read your responses, I was perhaps too harsh in labeling you, as it seems we do have a lot in common.
As to the Taliban – I’m well aware that their regime is barbaric. However, some (not all) aspects of Muslim culture were only adopted, not invented by their regime. The capital punishment for murder that this video speaks so negatively of, for example, is not a Taliban invention, and is something which the West should take a hard look at. Wartime deaths aside, civil murder is very rare in radical Muslim societies, simply because it is punishable by death. They have not grown weak over the ages as we have, and do not treat convicted murderers and sex offenders as valued guests in detention facilities. As to the veil itself, I agree with you, that will never be accepted by our society, nor does it need to be. I will even go so far as to say that wearing veils should be prohibited in Western nations, because allowance of such blatant practices is way over the line. “My house, my rules” (or something to that effect) goes the old adage, and to an extent, it is very appropriate. We are giving our citizens limitless freedoms already; let us not give them the freedom to oppress themselves as well.
You are right about Israel; they have long outgrown their position of innocent victim, and Obama is rightly decreasing US support for them. The Israelis have the advantage of not being Muslim, therefore of not being villified by the ignorant population of much of the world. That will likely not change. The Middle Eastern situation is a Gordian knot – if one is not willing to cut through it in one stroke, one would do well to leave it untouched.
The point I want to make clearest is that it is wholly appropriate to gain insight into another society, evaluate it, consider it, and conclude it incompatible and even barbaric according to one’s own subjective practices. As long as this is an educated and provable opinion, not blind hate, such beliefs are perfectly natural and even necessary. However, the problems begin when one views his truth as objective and solitary (cue the Catholic Church, Third Reich, Bush-era United States, Muslim extremists). That is delusion, and what bothers me is this is the primary reaction on both sides of the argument on topics such as the one in this film.
Big Dipper, it is a pleasure to speak with you and others here, and I look forward to continuing the discussion.
Big Dipper, my apologies as it seems that I have wrongly taken the views you presented in your post as somewhat discriminatory and one-sided.
I am very glad to see that the discussion at hand is actually taking a healthy direction. My understanding of the world we live in is very simple – it is a diverse and wonderful place. The differences that exist between cultures are a vast resource for learning, not only about others but about ourselves.
Having said that, I need to make it clear that in no way do I approve of the manner the Taliban run Afghanistan. Given my upbringing and education, I look upon it with dismay. Yes, from my point of view it’s brutal and unjust. But that is, to a larger or lesser degree, characteristic of every totalitarian regime. Using ideology or religion to control people’s lives is not something that is particular for the Taliban regime alone. Throughout history we find those in every corner of the world. The Taliban have probably taken it to the extreme, though.
Talking about the rights of women, for example, need I remind how long did it take for them to be granted with the right to vote in some of the most advanced Western democracies?
In Switzerland that right was granted to women in 1971 only (with exception of several cantons, which rejected it at the time). The same country held a referendum in 1985 to grant equal rights for men and women in the family. And only in 2004! they held a referendum to introduce a paid maternity leave. In Lichtenstein women got the voting right in 1984.
I am certainly not attempting to compare the Taliban regime and Swiss democracy, but am just trying to point out that our praised (by us) Western civilization is also still struggling with some deeply rooted backwardness.
Amadeo:
You write, “However, the problems begin when one views his truth as objective and solitary (cue the Catholic Church, Third Reich, Bush-era United States, Muslim extremists).”
You forgot Imperialist Britain, on which the Union Jack never set. As a Native American, I never forget from whence the Mayflower sailed.
WTC7:
I’d like to add that French women didn’t get the right to vote until 1944. Oh, those enlightened French!
Lastly, why we “westerners” incessantly get our panties in a wad over anti-muslim/Taliban sentiment is puzzling. It’s not time well-spent. Muslims are perfectly capable of defending themselves.
I know full well that throughout my experience as a college student (undergrad, graduate school and law school), students can make whatever derogatory statement they wish regarding Christians. There’s simply no equal time for the criticism of other major religions in any institution of higher learning, that I’m aware of.
So, no need to fuss. There’s a moratorium on publicly speaking against Islam. People are simply too afraid. I hope that allays your fears.
The narrator neglected to mention that the US helped the Taliban seize power by supplying them with weapons. The US meant for the Taliban to be a puppet Gov with the US pulling the strings. As with other governments “we” helped into power, the Taliban also turned on us.
By the way, the US will have it’s own Taliban if the Ultra-Fundamentalist Christians(Think of the Pat Robertson types of followers) ever establish a strong foot-hold in government.
Good one Julia. I can`t believe no one has thought of that…………..you`d think even the events of Sept 11 might have provoked a response from someone………
Brad, very subtle :-D. But I really like it :-D
Julia….. :O
How about killing is wrong, and never justified? full stop. US kills…wrong.
Taliban kills- WRONG.
So what the f!@£ are you people doing about it besides being opposed to eachother in your views?
And Sally, GOD isn’t going to stop anything, YOU have to get off your a$$ and do something if you want a change.
Don’t sit back and expect a miracle that will never happen.
and Andrine…please…ARE you a Native American?? really?? or was it your parents parents parents grandparents parents uncles cousins sisters………? Come on, I’ve heard that one a dozen times before.
The three young gurls, just a small numbr in many, so sad…. Such a misery of the possibility of what we humens can become…
Big Dipper, That was an excellent retort; articulate and concise. You should be an editor [if your aren't already].
This also isn’t the first and only doc. showing a middle eastern woman being publicly executed for a crime that a MAN gets only a $6.00 fine for committing. And, if this isn’t bad enough, then look up the story on Atefah Rajabi Sahaaleh; a 16 year old girl who was publicly executed for being raped by her Uncle.
Dear All,
I read your comments on the video. I am glad to find some comments especially those of AmadeoXI were really interesting. I belong to Afghanistan, especially Kandahar province the heart of Taliban stronghold, their birthplace. I was brought up and raised in Afghanistan, in a culture which has its own code of conduct known as Pashtonwali.
We Afghans have always lived a life far more open, natural and social where women socially participated in every aspect of life even war. I have not only studied the history of our country but also lived with various types of people from all over the country. We still preserve the national culture and our code of conduct which will never go away from us.
In this documentary the lady’s act of committing adultery is not permissible in either codes 1. Pashtonwali, 2. Religion of Islam. Nor is killing her husband permissible to her. So she should not be supported or backed in any case.
But besides this I am not also in support of Taliban as Taliban were not from among Afghans inhabiting this country, nor did they follow the Afghan code of culture or the Islam we were practicing for centuries. They were a group of Afghan students who studied in ISI (Pakistani Intelligence) supported religious schools in Pakistan during Afghan’s migration in Pakistan 1980 – till now and are still being funded, paid and fed by the Pakistani agency. I prayed 5 times a day from my early childhood out of my own interest and the salavation it gave me. During the Taliban regime I was forced to pray my one time prayer 3 – 4 times as Taliban militia with heavy duty cable pieces in their hands would beat me if i didn’t pray as they required me to do so. They took 1 person from every family which owned a shop, house, land etc to fight for them as a soldier or they had to pay heavy taxes. People of kandahar and other areas were forced to join them, and when they did so, they got their support. Among the Afghan communities the most marginalized are the Imams or priests who don’t even have a means of earning their living. The Taliban (religion students) gave great respect to these padreys and supported them to work for Taliban as their intelligence in every street. What elese would the poor and hungry priest want. This made them strong. While people were helpless against them.
In Taliban regime, the borders to pakistan were so uncrolled that we could go to Pakistan as if we are traveling between cities in Afghanistan. This proves their strong ties with Pakistan Government. Pakistani soldiers from forces and police joined the Taliban in combats against the northern allies and former warlords.
Even now that the Taliban are fighting back, they don’t have the support of local population and are forcing them to provide shelter to taliban fighters. People are always unarmed and helpless.
Neither do we support US because again most of our people die in their combats against taliban because the bloody US soldiers can not differentiate between ordinary Afghans and Taliban fighters all because taliban do not wear a specific uniform but the local afghan clothes.
We request both of them to go fight in open areas. Whosoever is victorious come take the government as we don’t give a damn. And let us live our own way as we used to live before the soviet invasion.
In Afghanistan they call everything a woman does adultery, not wearing a complete veil in public is adultery, Leaving the house without permission is adultery, answering the phone is adultery, Speaking to any man not directly related to her is adultery, opening the door is adultery, opening a window is adultery.
They executed an old women for letting a repair man in into her apartment. They paint the windows black and keep the women and children in stifling heat just so that no man might catch a glimpse of them.
Any time a man wants a new wife he accuses his current wife of adultery and has her killed and he does not need any proof because his word worth 4 testimonies and hers is only worth 1/2 of a testimony.
They have already killed so many females that there are not enough women of child bearing age for every young man to have a wife. With no chance of ever having wives and children of their own, men might as well go fight.
That is the real reason the Taliban murder women and girls by the thousands, either by execution or bombing market places or throwing acid on them, to keep brides off the market so that they can easily persuade young men to join them with promises of perfect virgins in heaven after they die.
Thank you. Great documentary. Very intelligent buch of viewers. Enjoyed your exchanges Amadeo/Big Dippper. Yes, the Taliban is not a reflection of Muslim popular thougth! And I’m still on the fence with regard to what our forces are planning in Afghanistan. Lets just hope that they have really gone in there to liberate the oppressed not the opium!
Thank you, Candide33. Thank you for saying just what I was thinking.
Yes. Thank you Candide33. Not enough is said about the women. We have lived too long in human existence where the woman is abused fatally and the subject is treated like “oh, well, that’s too bad”. Although I will say that its only these fundamental muslims that practice this barbarity and there are many who walk in peace. Personally, religion has proven to be as backward as war.
Amadeo, Qais. I ask you, what would you do in such a situation, knowing you were threatened with death? What do you know of her situation? How likely is it that she was free to marry? How do you know she was not beaten or abused, forced to marry at age 9 to someone she knew nothing of? Maybe she was, maybe she wasn’t. But don’t be so quick to condemn her and justify her murder for ‘not controlling herself’. It may not be right, but I don’t think you can judge it so black and white, when it is clearly such a desparate situation there for all.
And candide33, thank you. The rest would do well to remember that when they are talking about a ‘different culture’, they are talking about the ruler’s culture, not the culture of those they murder, and oppress. Not those who are resisting, who want to tell the world about the atrocities the Taliban has committed that we saw in this documentary.
TheRididill, I think you put it perfectly that “The rest would do well to remember that when they are talking about a ‘different culture’, they are talking about the ruler’s culture, not the culture of those they murder, and oppress…”
Even I have to catch myself when watching documentaries on any political, social or otherwise subject of a country other the one I personally know, and remember it’s the ruling class or government that dictates/mandates how a culture is shaped and its subjects behave which unfortunately inaccurately colors the perspectives of outsiders looking in.
I’m a permanent resident of the US and have been so for over 27 years (most of my life) and was born, not raised, in an African country split between Muslims and Christians, and teeming with corruption and instability. I call America my residence but I call the world my home because I’m not one to live in a place and judge without knowing of that “other” place I’ve never been to.
Though America is a progressive country as far as allowing personal freedoms and generally protecting civil liberties, the people at the top (the government running the country and the people who have influence over the people who run the government) of this country (both past and present) have hands just as dirty and bloody as other “barbaric” and “cruel” governments and pseudo-governments of past and present. Maybe it seems through Western eyes that the Taliban, North Korean government, Iranian figure heads, etc. are more cruel because they’re more blatant about their cruelty and America, the UK, and so forth are more “civilized” in hiding it. Either way, we can see it as a difference in cultural perspective rather than one culture is better than another which, I don’t think can ever really be quantified outside the strength of personal opinions, mores, and so forth.
I choose, and remind myself to choose to “judge” a culture/country by the people who live under the people in “charge” because they’ll tell/show you what it is to be a Muslim, an America, a Pakistani, a North Korean, an Iranian, etc. And even then, you still have to consider the opinion of and experience of many, not one or a few, to get a sense of an overall culture.
And kuddos to Candide33 for commenting on the women of Afghanistan. And thanks Waliyah for bringing to light how the oppression of women seems to too often be overlooked as if almost either too taboo or too “unimportant” to study, discuss, and genuinely try to alleviate from any culture. There’s that saying that you can judge culture by the way they treat their children. But I think more than anything, you can judge a culture by they way they treat women in the culture.
kglobal16 – thank you for your comments. It is very good to see other people recognise this.
Culture is not uniform throughout any population, and I’m sure those from the US who have written here would not want to be seen as part and parcel with the Bush administration and its policies, though to an outsider they may well be seen as part of ‘American culture’ as it looks like to the rest of the world, just as Afghans and even Muslims get tarred with the same brush. It is much easier to call another group’s ways their ‘culture’ without seeing the diversity and conflict within that group, while at the same time distancing yourself from those who do not agree with you in your own culture.
It is unfortunate that the critique of ‘other’ cultures (I could well call a major part of British culture another culture to mine) always seems to come down to a childish slanging match between who did what first and who was worst. I.e. people assume if you criticise the Taliban you assume America or Europe is perfect, which is not necessarily the case.
If our own country’s history and politics has to be perfect before we can criticise anything, then we are forever doomed to tolerate inhumanity just because that is what has happened before. And it has happened in all of our cultures, in the grand and bloody history of human development.
Better not to say ‘let he who is without sin cast the first stone’; better to encourage free criticism of yourself and others alike (both inside and outside of ‘your culture’), and to encourage dialogue between those who criticise and those who believe they are right.
But this last comment:
‘you can judge a culture by they way they treat women in the culture.’
This is a problematic statement. By the way ‘they’ treat women? To the extent that culture belongs equally to women and men, and women play an equal part in creating that culture, and culture is no longer something men do to ‘their’ women… that is how we can judge.
AmadeoXI – your comments on the burqa France and ‘my house my rules’ are surprisingly illiberal for someone who is advocating tolerance and understanding of other cultures. Do we only tolerate difference if it is nicely segregated from us in another country? Is that what tolerance means, you can do it as long as I don’t have to look at it? What does freedom of religion mean to you? These burqas in France do not hurt anyone except those with intolerant sensibilities; and in any case, those who wear them are a tiny, tiny minority.
Western European countries, and the US, are already more than ready to allow to all to ‘oppress ourselves’. Cue media industry which broadcasts damaging and unrealistic ideals of the female body, which are so widespread you cannot escape from, the dieting industry, the plastic surgery industry. High heels can be called self-oppression. Not even to mention smoking, which you could say is the epitome of self-oppression.
The point is, one action, like wearing the burqa, does not mean the same thing to all people. All of these things, the burqa, plastic surgery, high heels, dieting, and smoking, represent an attempt to build a viable identity for oneself in a world which encourages certain norms about the way you are supposed to behave. In that sense, these can said to be empowering; it is the norms that are oppressive, but to punish the individual people who are trying to cope for themselves in that system of norms is hardly fair or productive.
As a woman in the UK, i can see why it might be appealing to hide yourself from the stare, comments and unwanted attention of men, that certainly at least every woman I know has suffered at some point in their lives, some to more serious degrees than others. No one is talking about the sexual harrassment and unwanted attention which occurs on a daily basis to women in these ‘liberated’ countries, where we are ‘free’ to wear what we like (as long as we don’t mind putting up with this harrassment, and probably an unfair trial which will focus on whether we were ‘asking for it’ with our outfits if we happened to be raped). We need to change the situation where women are always forced to react to men’s inability to take responsibility for their own oppressive actions, and stop talking about what women are wearing.
As for those women in France who are forced to wear the burqa, do you really think that this law will improve the situation for them? If they are already forced in decisions like this, it seems more likely that their husband or family will simply not let them go outside if they cannot wear the burqa. This law will not help those who are oppressed; it will only make it harder for them.
Many on here keep repeating the mantra that Islam has nothing to do with the atrocities committed by groups like the Talian. But I don’t agree. Islam is the inspiration behind most of the atrocities committed by Muslims today. They haven’t hyjacked a peaceful religion. They are practicing Islam the way it was originally taught and practiced by its founder, Muhammed. So-called moderate Muslims are not being true to the original Islam and are practicing a watered-down Islam.
Muhammed stated in the Hadith that the majority of the population of hell are women. The Quran states that it takes the testimony of 2 women to equal the testimony of one man. The hadith state that women are not as intelligent as men. The Quran states that a husband has the right to beat his wife. The Quran states that a wife cannot refuse her husband for sex (in other words, she can be raped). And on and on it goes. If this is what the religion of Islam states, then one cannot expect anything else but an environment, a culture, a lifestyle that abuses women. And we see this everywhere in the Islamic world. It is Islam itself that must be outlawed and eradicated. If we aren’t serious about doing that, then you might as well keep saying, “oh well, that’s too bad”.
If Islam subjugates women, then why do you think 51% of Muslims are women- why feminist intellectuals like, Shirin Ebad, Irshad Manji, Amna Wadud, etc. choose to be Muslims? Your logic falls flat.
Kiran. Didn’t you read the Quran and Hadiths? All of the things I mentioned from the Quran and Hadiths IS the subjugation of women by Islam, unless you want to claim that the Quran and Hadith are not Islam.
Irshad Manji lives in Canada where she is free to practice her watered-down form of Islam. But if she lived in Afghanistan or Pakistan under Taliban rule, or in Saudi Arabia, she would have been arrested and maybe even killed a long time ago. She knows that and is the reason she is calling for a “reformation” of Islam. Why do you think so many Muslim women are against the idea of Sharia law in Canada? Because they know they will be abused and mistreated.
And Irshad is a supporter of *** rights. Are you saying that *** rights is supported by the Quran and Hadiths? Wake up, Kiran.