For the Bible Tells Me So

Ratings: 8.64/10 from 61 users.


For the Bible Tells Me SoWe meet five Christian families, each with a gay or lesbian child. Parents talk about their marriages and church-going, their children's childhood and coming out, their reactions, and changes over time.

The stories told by these nine parents and four adult children alternate with talking heads - Protestant and Jewish theologians - and with film clips of fundamentalist preachers and pundits and news clips of people in the street.

They discuss scripture and biblical scholarship. A thesis of the film is that much of Christianity's homophobia represents a misreading of scripture, a denial of science, and an embrace of quack psychology. The families call for love.

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701 Comments / User Reviews

  1. BBC

    This is going to make for some interesting conversation. Let you know what i think after i watch it.

  2. BBC

    This doc was interesting. I now see what Achem says about the religees. This may sound silly but it ain't like that here in Canada. This doc was pretty eye opening, and quite sad. That old lady who said for all these wacko's wanting to kill homosexuals, why dont they sell everything they have and give it to the poor, she was sweet. Totally nailed them.

  3. Achems Razor

    Quite a Doc:

    Watched all of it, really held my interest.
    Came to the conclusion that most Fundamentalist Christians are the scourge of the Earth, they make me want to vomit!

    Especially the ones that take there Bible literally. Where it states, man that lays with man, and woman that lays with woman, should be put to death. Some fundamentalists even want the authorities to kill such people.

    Also came to the conclusion that religion is driving the Empire of US. down the tubes. Glad that I am not part of it.

    Dr. James Dobson at "Focus On The Family" cause's of a lot of suicides
    among gay people. The place should be outlawed!

    All in all, and since I am not homophobic, this Doc. made me very angry that gay people should be treated this way.

  4. Jenn

    I am forever in awe of the ignorance of the human race.

    I... I just can't say any more on the subject without becoming too angry and hopeless. I suppose that one sentence sums up my feelings well enough.

  5. eva

    Long hard road to the freedom of man.

  6. Hesus

    Ah poetic justice at its finest :))) christians with gay offspring. Lord sure does move in mysterious ways ;) I wish gay children to all christians - in this way we may finally get rid of abomination people call the Bible.

  7. Joe_nyc

    V- another excellent doc!

  8. Vendetta

    " I hope someone stones this fag**** to death"
    "hi , hows the corn holing bishop doing , you s*b!"
    "You fornica**** lechr*** Pi*. How dare you split the Anglican church?"
    "If you have any courage you will kill yourself like all que***"
    "Holy bible is the road to heaven and God says death to the fag**** & lesb****" ....LOL

  9. Sarai

    This was brutal for me to watch.

  10. j

    Wow, what a great documentry. I as BBC stated found this documentry eye opening. I live in Australia and we have one of the largest Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras in the world. Millions of people come out every year to support the parade.
    We also have a lot of my local schools who are developing support groups for teenage kids who are struggling to come to terms with their sexuality. I am so glad that we do not have to deal with this sort of extreme predjudice in our country............

  11. Linda McGuigan

    I enjoyed this documentary, and I wish the family's all the best in the future of thier fight to enlighten the bigot's of fundamental christians. Remember what to be G A Y stand's for GOOD AS YOU. I am a non believer and after watching this I know why. I would never have turned my back on any of my children if they had been G A Y there are a lot worse thing's your children can be

    Love and Peace,

  12. Morgan

    know, what’s next to be legalized:

    1)Priest’s & little boys sex
    ( The priests don’t have control on their sexuality & bible doesn’t prohibit it)
    (What’s wrong with that!)
    3) Bestia***
    ( Some people like to Fu** chickens, dogs, goats & cows)
    ( Oh! the poor person neglected by society was alone & looking for company!)

    According, to this logic at last every kind of perver**** is justified, cause a person doesn’t want to live a normal sexual life & it’s his or her right! Where does one draw the line???

  13. Hardy

    Ever heard of mutual consent?

    To put gay people on the same level as rapists is ignorant and hateful. You obviously have never met homosexual people, or you would think different.

    By the way, define 'normal'.

  14. savedbygrace

    You foolish foolish people! Let me very honest and open with you all. I used to be gay. Yes, USED TO BE gay! It is not a lifestyle of freedom. It is hell on earth, and not because of the Christians. The shame, the perversion; the sadness; the compultion the FEAR!

    I chose to not continue in that secret lifestyle (yes I did come from a Christian family--my mom, sister and brother knew but not my dad) and it was MY choice to come out of that lifestyle. Thank God for a Christian mother that could pray.

    I was so demonized I would wake up screaming at night or beating my own chest from horrid nightmares. I lived in fear of AIDS and death. I had visions of my own death in a rundown shack in San Fran and could hardly sleep due to nightmares where I would have violent sex all night with other men.

    Had I not with my whole heart turned to God, and with my whole heart been delivered of the demonic elements assocociated with homosexuality, I would have probably killed myself too. Out of persecution from the Christians? Certainly not! Out of dispair from the lifestyle and fear of disease and demonic influence? Oh, absolutely!

    This documentary trailer was enough to make my spirit so sad. You all think that Christians are the most vial thing on the planet, but I can tell you, in the 10 years I've been set free from this hell of homosexuality, I am so happy and I love life and I'm happily married to a woman and I feel freedom and love and joy. I'll never ever ever go back. Never! Never! Never! Never! Never ever! You all should shut your ignorant stupid mouths!

    Do I still stuggle with gay thoughts? Yes, from time to time, but it's not the torment that it once was. The nightmares are gone and I escaped getting HIV. I can assure you there's no greater fear than wondering "Did I catch it? Am I dying now?" Now THAT is Hell. Watching the poor girl taking your blood to take an HIV test shake and not be able to handle it was so sad. I actually told her, "Don't be scared, I probably don't have it."

    The Bible says that "my yoke is easy and my burden is light." Yes, sir, it is. Thank you Jesus for my brand new life and my loving wife. I'm living long-term proof that those that want to change, can, but it has to be with your whole heart. It's good to be free.

  15. Morgan

    @Hardy I never said, gays and rapists are the same !

    My point is that, as many people are in the world, so are their sexual preferences and fantasies !

    Normal,is the sex between mutually consenting male and female under the oath of marriage!

    I hope you have seen the documentary "Body Shock: The Man Who Ate His Lover" and according to your mutual consent theory that was normal !

    Allowing, one deviance as normal open up the flood gates of perversion ,soon other people with come out with their way of defining normal !

    I again ask you ,Where does one draws the line???

  16. Hardy

    "The nightmares are gone and I escaped getting HIV."

    Ahaha. AHAHAHAHA. Christian brainwashing at it's best.

    Tell me all you want, but to the end of your life you will know that you are attracted to males, but the fear of hell will suppress that tendency. Some people have the ability to live their lives how they chose to and some aren't. I hope you are happy in your god-fearing existence.


    According to many fundamentalist muslims, marriage is between a man and many women! Woops, what happened to your personal definition of normal?

    Where do I draw my line? There is none. If two people want to do something, they should as long as it hurts noone else. If two people want to eat each other, well, they should. I personally find it revolting and, quite frankly, pretty stupid, but I can't try to dictate what they are supposed to do. Everyone has a mind of his own and should do what suits him or her best under the prerequisite of mutual consent.

    And these 'floods of perversion' don't worry me - I am proud to say I have a mind of my own and am not scared of other personal tendencies 'taking over'. If I'd think marriage was important, I'd be married. Would I care if other people get married that don't have the same idea of 'being normal' as I do? Hell no.

    Subconsciously hippie for life... Make love, in any manner you please, not war!

  17. Charles B.

    Homosexuality is not the worst of the worst sin; it's just one of many sins that can keep you from God. Let's not make any excuesses for any kind of sin, shall we, which would include any so-called "Christian" person wanting to kill gay people rather than help them, etc. Holiness may be out of fashion, but it is still essential in the eyes of God. Don't like that idea? Take it up with God three minutes after you take your last breath and let me know how things turn out for y'all.

  18. Hardy

    I would LOVE to have a discussion with 'god' after death, but that probably won't happen. Because your god works with fear to keep his little people under control, I'm glad to turn my back to him. You may call it love, but it is a forced love, forced through the emphasis on the fear of not knowing what comes after death.

    Rather a free thinking man for a lifetime than a blind follower in eternity.

  19. Achems Razor

    @ savedbygrace:

    I guess a lot of people can't live with out a crutch, maybe you are Bi?
    I don't know, what do you think. I can't speak for you.

    That gay gene is probably inherent within you, some thing that you choose to fight. You are just going from one extreme to another. like @ Hardy said, the fear of hell, eternal damnation and the fear of going insane with your previous life style has put a brake on your gay tendencies,
    But you are replacing that fear with another fear, the fear of not being a good brainwashed religious follower, which takes a lot of work and energy, to constantly adhere to the christian ideology. In other words you have to be a good little "sheeple" or else! To me there is no freedom there, you are shackled and bound.

    But you yourself said you still think about men. What will happen if your God forsakes you, will you revert back to your previous lifestyle?

    People do have the power to control there own lives, without any intervention by some imaginary God,Gods. By the power of there own mind. The power is within you, you should not let anybody control you, be it religion or otherwise.

  20. Morgan

    Definitely , your an atheist supporting the homosexual position!

    You find it revolting that two people eat each other but you should not,i feel sorry for you because you have no moral standard to look to! As much as you atheists call your morality to minimize harm, you have no reference and are basically lost !

    How about people,who are necrophiliac?I thought you would go out with them and defend their right too! You know these are evils deep down but are too much of an egotist to admit that!

    The Muslims are right in their culture, at least marrying many women does serve the procreation purpose!

    You have a very narrow view of things ,you are just saying this because you see it as right of an individual to choose ,completely ignoring the social implications!

    A union between two homosexuals is the death of two families , meaning end of family tree, basically extinction !Man's sperms are to fertilize a woman's egg! No wonder AIDS and other diseases are common among homosexuals because they are going against nature!

    People supporting homosexuality are two year old arguing with God, whose wisdom is above any human being! God knows, what's best for man!

  21. Hardy

    @Morgan: I'm egocentric because I leave it up to other people to decide what they want to do with their lives? Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

    And no, necrophiliacs SHOULD be punished: They disturb the peace of the dead and bring damage to the family of the deceased.

    god knows best? If we continue to follow nature, as you are propagating, we will soon overpopulate the world and have massive deaths due to malnourishment and overpopulation. It's a biological principle, but most christians haven't heard of it due to the fact that it's biology (= devil). Great idea. But hey, god knows best! Lets just stop thinking and continue to blindly follow a book.

  22. Achems Razor

    God knows whats best??? he can't even make a proper human being. And then he blames them for his inadequacies!!!

  23. Morgan

    @Hardy @Achems Razor
    Your an egotist because you don't want to admit what's "evil" to save your atheistic ego! Instead you resort to some political statement, not to get in conflict with your atheistic position of minimizing harm!

    Do you know what were Reverend Thomas Malthus religious views were, whose population theory you are referring to?

    "As a believer and a clergyman, Malthus held that God had created an inexorable tendency to human population growth for a moral purpose, with the constant harsh threat of poverty and starvation designed to teach the virtues of hard work and virtuous behavior.
    "Evil exists in the world not to create despair, but activity".

    Malthus saw "the infinite variety of nature" which "cannot exist without inferior parts, or apparent blemishes".Such diversity and struggle functioned to enable the development of improved forms. Without such a contest, no species would feel impelled to improve itself.Without the test of struggle, and the failure or even death of some, no successful development of the population as a whole would take place. For Malthus, evil invigorates good and death replenishes life." wikipedia--Thomas Robert Malthus

    I hope you don't consider yourself omniscient ! Bible is not just a book, it's the word of God!

  24. Hesus

    Morgan you made me laugh. Thank you. Laughter really is the best cure for a hangover. Obviously you did not pay attention during the documentary. Many species have sex with the same gender. It is a natural occurance. I was surprised that they did not mention dogs as they are the gayest animals around. Before you say the devil made them do it I say to you there is no such thing. But there is evil. The fact that you think AIDS is gods plan for gays just shows that you are evil. Anyway it is true that two persons of the same sex cannot have children. So they are an evolutionary dead end. Except christian gays - most of them have families. At he same time gays are the most eco friendly people around even if they do drive an SUV due to the same fact that they have no children. Overpopulation is a real problem. This planet will be unable to sustain humanity if we continue to expand at the rate we are now. I think procreation should have more emphasis on quality and not quantity. Sustainability - look it up. Since you are such a good believer I have a question for you. Do you eat shrimp?

  25. Morgan

    Using Animal behavior to justify a moral issue is nonsensical!. Animals do other things too like eating their mate after sex, male lions kill the cubs when they take over a pride, etc. If i was to use animal behavior to justify my behavior , i can justify anything! To me it seems idio*** , we are human beings !
    Shrimps , i don’t like!

  26. Hardy


    No, I was referring to an ACTUAL biologist. I forgot the name but will get back to it once I remember.

    Wait, let me get this straight (pun intended):

    I, the horrible atheist/agnostic, am egoistic, because I don't tell everybody else how evil they are. I do this because I want to save my own ego (?!). Please do elaborate on this, I can't follow what you're trying to say (this is a honest request, not sarcasm).

    You, however, are not egoistic, because you tell other people how horrible their lifestyle is and that you are living the only correct way of life and you're going to heaven and they're going to hell. Oh, and you have a book by the invisible supreme ruler of the universe and you absolutely know. Why? Because.

    Yeah, now I understand.

  27. Vlatko

    @Morgan, there is no sharp line between good and bad, between morally and immorally.

    Morality is just a set of standards to a particular social group. The key word here is "particular". Morality is not a universal low that drives the behavior of men to the "proper direction". Like everything else morality is a man made concept, therefore it is not real. It is in confrontation with the reality. Since you can't fight the reality you are doomed to be frustrated, because sooner or later certainly you will do some immoral act according to the group you live with.

    What is moral to one group, nation or country it can be immoral to another one. That means what is good for somebody it can be bad for somebody else.

    In Madagascar, or in some particular part of it, the people have tradition in every 3-5 years to un-bury the deceased and have celebration with them for the sake of having prosperity and happiness in their lives, in future. Un-burying the dead everywhere else in the world is unheard of. Un-burying the dead for the purpose of celebration everywhere else is blasphemy. But go and tell that to those people in Madagascar. They are saving and than spending all the money they have just to do that celebration with the dead every 3-5 years in order not to embarrass themselves and their predecessors. As a matter of fact if you tell them that you are not doing that they will think that you are crazy. So what is moral now? From your standpoint those people are crazy, but from their standpoint you are crazy.

    Here is another example. If you live your life in some remote, particular African tribe and if your daughter is pregnant without being married to someone, you are obliged to kill her in front your people. That is the most moral thing to do in that moment. Called blooded murder of pregnant women in front of hundreds of witnesses is the most moral act for that particular group. Everywhere else in the world that is the most immoral act. If you tell to those people that in you country there are hundreds, thousands pregnant unmarried women freely living their lives, they will think that you are crazy.

    But don't think that there is only a difference between the morality in developed and undeveloped societies, because morality is different among developed societies also. Even if you study one developed society you will see that moral code of that society was changing over time. What was moral 20 years ago now is immoral, or the opposite way around. In the past it was "morally right" colored people to be exploited, but now it is highly immoral.

    Morality is only a byproduct of the society you live in.

  28. Hardy

    Thank you @ Vlatko, very insightful post.

  29. Morgan

    @Hardy I meant that you didn't want to use the word "evil" because of its religious connotations, being an atheist! Since, you said two people want to eat each other are committing a revolting act but can go ahead and do it and its not downright evil!
    You are not sure about what's right or wrong but we are absolutely sure about the word of God and it guides us to condemn the evil acts or if possible to stop them!

    @Vlatko Let's not confuse morality and cultural norms here !
    The examples you gave here are morally right because morality is derived from religion and it shapes the norms of people!
    You atheists don't believe in moral absolutes and are relativists because you have no religion!We believers have a religion and it shapes our morality and norms! Homosexuality is morally wrong according to us ! If you are a atheist it's alright to be a homosexual or a serial killer, psychopath because of your genes or brains emotional centers not working!

    This is why it's hard to agree!

  30. Achems Razor

    @ Morgan:

    Words of God???

    Here is some words of God!

    Psalm:...137:9...Blessed is the one who grabs your little children and smashes them against a rock!

    And than you can peruse these others. Real gems!
    1 Sam...15:3...a dooser, murdering women and children.
    1 Tim...2:11-14.
    1 Cor...14:34-35.
    Have fun!

  31. BBC


    You are a believer. Yet you still sin. If you say you don't still sin, then you are a liar and the truth is not in you according to 1 John. If you think you are a guide to the blind, yet do the same things that they do then you have some issues also Romans 2:17-24. I applaud you standing up for what you believe in. Most people do not have the courage. The same thing most people accuse Christians of doing to same sex oriented people, they themselves do to Christians.

    People say peace and love, knowing peace and love in ones mind and not applying that knowledge in life, benefits no one. Not even the person with the knowledge of it. The Bible says many things, which many people twist to suit their own purpose, thats why there is 3,800 and some odd sects of Christianity.

    Morgan, what you have demonstrated here, goes hand in hand with what the video was showing of Christians. But do not worry, the people who argue against you, did not reflect their beliefs much better.

    Was it Confucius who said, "practice what you preach"?

  32. j

    @ morgan,

    i was wondering if you also feel so strongly in agreement with the supression of women, aparteid, black slavery etc.

    do you think that women should be allowed equal rights?

    do you think that the south african government was justified with its policy of aparteid?

    do you think that slavery was good policy and lynching of black slaves was ok?

    i ask this because all of those events in history have been justified by religion, however society saw through the ridiculousness of it all.

    i wonder if in ten years time we will be holding signs saying that god hates fish eaters.

    perhaps you should look at history and see how it is always the religious who end up with egg on their face, i await the day when our world is run on logic and not a book written thousands of years ago and interpreted in ways that give justice to prejudice.

  33. BBC


    "i await the day when our world is run on logic and not a book written thousands of years ago and interpreted in ways that give justice to prejudice"

    "Logic" comes from books. Aristotle, Homer, Plato, these guys all wrote thousands of years ago. Do we ignore what they said? Or take your comment written above, thousands of years from now, should the people ignore what you have written?

  34. Epicurus


    this is just painful to watch. you claim that atheists dont have any morals because we have nothing to base the morals on if the morals are not objective...that is fine, however religious morals are constantly changing and like people before have just pointed out there are many instances of immorality in the bible.

    now who is the REAL moral person? the atheist who does good deeds because he realizes that he wouldn't want bad things happening to him and that behaving immorally leads to more discomfort.

    or the religious person who only does what their preacher tells them is moral and cherry picks through the bible?

    now if you have the ability to discern what in the bible is moral and what isnt then you must have some outside source OTHER THAN THE BIBLE that you are using to base those morals...and that would be the SECULAR societal influence.

    i ask you an age old question....

    Does God command the good because it is good, or is it good because it is commanded by God?

  35. eldrig

    there is a very, very, very, very high chance that savedbygrace's testimony is either completely made up or liberally embellished

  36. rtm

    I may be wrong but isn't homosexuality somthing that occurs when the sex of a baby is being developed? This is normal in a sence that these genetic defects have always occured through our known history. But what isn't normal about this, is that nature intentionaly created males and females equiped with compatible reproductive organs for procreation. You can look at this both in a scientific view or religious one, whereas they both dictate males and females were ment for each other, hence, the "norm".

    "Atheism" is the disbelief in superior beings or God. Who is God? What is God? These are both questions to which you CANNOT give simple answers, therefore why use the name so loosely. There is no concrete evidence in existance to support anything that God willed or commanded or said. Likewise there is no evidence of any written religious text credible enough to be used as supporting information for any topic. And as I'm sure some of you know very well, what purpose religion implimented for in the world. Its was for control over the population.
    There are two majors theories of how we came to be; The theory of evolution and creation, and only one has given us fact based evidence, guess which one. And since science is tied with nature I would say that everything that prevents our continuing evolution as a thriving human race is not normal.
    It is important to believe that there is a higher power, is you understand that definition, and it is important to use our brains to their fullest capacity or at least try, instead of continuing to be primitive sheep who only do what their told because its all they know.

  37. rtm

    i just wanna say i havn't watched the doc yet lol..

  38. rtm

    Intellect is somehow lost in this subject. Everything anyone believes is normal was only created by the information provided to you since you were born. If the information is correct or incorrect does matter.
    The only thing that would bring an end to stupid disputes over whos right or wrong in any small argument or full scale disputes among millions different races cultures and governments is scientific fact. Facts that cannot be disscredited, and that are found by full openess and cooperation in order to create peace in the world to some degree and save us all from what some religious believers would call damnation lol. Oh man so much more i would love to say.

  39. Epicurus

    @rtm, wonderful post. a few thoughts. do you think it would be healthy for every human who is alive to be procreating? do you think if a human didnt want to procreate they should be shunned or given less rights? do you think sex should only be used for procreation or can it be used for pleasure as well?

    i will entertain the idea that it isnt "natural" (whatever that means) however i will not say it is wrong in any way. i dont think there is any moral problem with it and dont think that someone who chooses to live that way should be ridiculed or put down in any way.

    any thoughts?

  40. DocNerd

    After reading most of these comments I've noticed a bizarre absence of the discussion of love in homosexual relationships. That's ultimately what seperates this "pervertion" apart from rap*, beast*ality, child molestation, etc. In those cases, another being is being taking advantage of at the sake of someone else's sexual gratification. By the very nature of the words, mutual love doesn't come into the picture. Incest may be the exception. The bible has a number of stories which both seem to condone and condemn it but mutual-consenting incestual relationships are few and inbetween.

    In a homosexual relationship BOTH people are capable of finding an emotional fulfillment in one another. That's where the line is. Call me a free-lovin hippy but that just seems to be an obvious factor that people tend to overlook, ignore, or devalue all together.

    Also if you're against Homosexuality because the Bible/Laviticus says so, do take into account that if you've done ANY of the following:

    Touched Semen
    Touched Amniotic Fluid
    Touched Menstral Fluid
    Sat on furniture that's been touched by the above three
    Wore clothing stained by the above three
    Made love to your wife within 40-66 days after giving birth
    Pulled Out before ejaculation
    Had premarital sex without intent to marry
    Had sex with a woman your brother or father had sex with
    Saw your parents naked
    Disrespected your parents
    Ate shellfish
    Ate pork
    Touched pork skin
    Called a psychic or got your palms read
    Knowingly had sex with someone carrying an STD
    Wore mixed textiles
    Planted mixed grains
    Owned a mule
    Harvested fruit before five years after planting
    Gotten a tattoo (especially of names of dead people)
    Gotten an ornamental scar
    Used a Quija board or Tarot Cards (even a magic 8 ball)
    Trimed your beard

    These are all listed right along side "homosexuality" as abominations or unclean acts punishable by death, banishment, or permanent social scorn according to Laviticus.

  41. Hardy

    Okay, I don't want to repeat everything most of the people have said here, but I found one thing that nobody has replied to @Morgan:

    "If you are a atheist it’s alright to be a homosexual or a serial killer, psychopath because of your genes or brains emotional centers not working!"

    That is wrong. I have a morality, obviously, but it is fundamentally based on reason.

    A homosexual hurts nobody else with his way of life - I have no right to dictate what he should be doing. A serial killer, however, is a threat to the lives of others and therefore should be punished or stopped in any way possible.

    Summarized: I don't define a clear 'good' or 'evil', because they are, as @ Vlatko said, "only a byproduct of the society you live in." This leads me to accept any lifestyle somebody wants to chose, as long as it hurts nobody else.

    Interestingly enough, an "atheists moral" (if you want to oversimplify) is very close to the liberal religious moral. There you can clearly see the influence of the secular community on the religious community.

    The problem I have with the religious-fundamental community is simply this: they have a book, they believe it's the (exact) word of god, yet they have no evidence to prove it. So far so good, if you chose to believe so: not my problem. But if you start to tell the whole world what is wrong and what is right based on these unfounded beliefs, it goes against my morality.

  42. Charles B.

    Mr. Razor: I'm pretty sure all your Biblical passages are concerning "judgement" for sin. Judgement is a complicated topic and concept, but when God's hand of protection is removed from a nation or a person's life, then direct judgement from God and the actions of others while out from under God's protection merge. If you don't trust God's Character, then there is little I could say to explain or change your mind anyway.

    Eldrig: Let's assume savedbygrace is telling the truth. Why wouldn't we believe him? I suspect there is more like him than we realize as it's not vogue to talk about what you think most shameful about your past in most Christian circles. He mentioned demonic influence (and I assume deliverence from at a latter time as it's not specifically mentioned), and therefore I believe him; he sounds like he knows first hand about what's it's like to stuggle with homosexuality perhaps in and outside of the church doors. I suspect most "addictions" of all kinds involve demonic influence of some level or another. Don't you?

    savedbygrace: Hold fast to what you know to be true and what you've proven with your life, that God's "saving grace" is enough to save us from whatever sin we might find ourselves enslaved by.

    Hardy: Please don't turn your back on God. That was a really sad post.

    Morgan: I would suggest using more periods instead of the "!" after every sentence. I'm on YOUR side and it's irritating even me! :-) Save it for the strongest points.

  43. j

    @ hardy

    well said!!!!!!!

  44. Joe_nyc

    Charles B

    I am rather disappointed that you still think literal bible is way to go. It's a ripe time to stop abusing 'bible sins' taken out of its cultural and historical context. You should know, they really mess up good people's head


    Years ago, during my Christian days, we had two gay guys who converted, like yourself, and even got married to the girls from the same church. In short, they both ended badly few years later despite our preacher repeatedly performing Sunday night exorcisms. Once, I even saw what looked like demons being chased out of the body. Eventually, two gay guys and their families stop coming to the church and we never talked about them again in the church.

    Sorry if you think I'm being hateful but just think about it.
    You are your own life.

  45. Achems Razor

    @ Charles B:

    Since they are taking the Bible literally, they must take all passages literally, and not cherry pick, omitting chapters not to there liking.
    And, or toning down passages that might freak out the readers.

    Sin? Judgment? most of the chapters pertain to not doing what the jealous, vindictive God commands.

    Did you say trust a man made God, Gods?? I almost choked on my morning coffee!!

  46. Mr. Balls

    Your post gave me chills. Attibuting terrible nightmares to homosexuality and possible demonic possession? Given the overall fear & loathing of homesexuals that still exists in our society and widely espoused by the major religions, I must wonder about the true source of your former nightmares. After all, you likely would have internalized most of that fear and hatred well before your sexual orientation had begun to make itself known to you. I don't think your fears were based on disease and sin, but the realization that you were in danger of being rejected by your family and friends. The fact you admit to having lived the life only in secret sheds light on the kind of phsycological torment you were enduring. "Salvation through Christ" seems to me to be a poor substitute for clinical therapy, which may have allowed you to work through your fears and urges in a real and honest way. I can only hope you were upfront with your current spouse regarding your "former" homosexuality. If not, its horribly unfair.

    I can only infer from your post that you believe homosexuality is somehow linked to demonic possession. I'll be reading any of your future posts with that firmly in mind...

  47. Will

    @Religious Folk arguing against homosexuality;

    I feel bad for you. I feel sorry for you, that you're that closed-minded. I feel pity for you that you are so willing to believe lies based in fear and prejudice.

    I have no desire to argue with any of you, much the same way that I have no desire to argue with an eight-year-old who insists that girls have cooties.

    I'm so sorry for whatever it was that was done to you that turned you into bigots and hate-mongers. I hope some day you find the strength and the courage to whipe away the fog from your brains and embrace some of the more immediate realities of how the world works, of how biology works and of how the universe in general works.

  48. savedbygrace

    I will post later after I can think. I've told the truth, but I admit that maybe I am in the minority even in the minorities.

    Joe-NYC: I can understand about the gay men in church. I don't like to talk about deliverence, but it helped me. Demons are real. Even if they come out, you are still left with "you" and "you" feels very "empty" like an egg shell afterwards. Unless you are wise enough to fill up the empty part with God, then you fill it back up with the same old stuff. I felt better, so I wanted to go back and have the "sin" without the torment. That is not possible I think. I was very disappointed after deliverence, not becuase it didn't work, but because I was so shallow and "empty" and fighting the voices is at least doing something. Emptiness is terrible too. I decieded to fill it up with God, not go back. That is where the choice is.

    To all: Yes, I still have the struggle in part, but it's about 1/5th it was before deliverence. The nightmares are really gone and I can manage with God's help. I don't like to talk about it if I can just let it go and just live life now. Before I wouldn't have made it. It was just too bad. Just believe me. I don't want to talk about my past any more. Sorry. I just hated the video because that was not my story, and I just wanted to say there ARE other options than just giving into the "lifestyle".

  49. Epicurus

    @savedbygrace, it is not just a "lifestyle" and you are not haunted by demons that make you homosexual. you should read Mr. Balls post carefully because what is says is absolutely true and rather than religion you need to see a psychiatrist...i will repost it here for you

    "Your post gave me chills. Attributing terrible nightmares to homosexuality and possible demonic possession? Given the overall fear & loathing of homosexuals that still exists in our society and widely espoused by the major religions, I must wonder about the true source of your former nightmares. After all, you likely would have internalized most of that fear and hatred well before your sexual orientation had begun to make itself known to you. I don’t think your fears were based on disease and sin, but the realization that you were in danger of being rejected by your family and friends. The fact you admit to having lived the life only in secret sheds light on the kind of psychological torment you were enduring. “Salvation through Christ” seems to me to be a poor substitute for clinical therapy, which may have allowed you to work through your fears and urges in a real and honest way. I can only hope you were upfront with your current spouse regarding your “former” homosexuality. If not, its horribly unfair."

    please now that you are done, read it again....and think about it. because claiming homosexuality as a lifestyle or being possessed by demons is absolutely barbaric and dare is say....insane.

  50. apple

    When talking about homosexuality there seems to be alot to talk about what is and is not normal. Normalicy is a subjective issue, take me for example.

    My medical records are filled with the word abnormal, these are parapharases from my medical records; I have abnormal sight, I have abnormal skin texture (I have a genetic condition that causes tumors to form on my skin), I have abnormal growths in my CNS, I am of abnormal height (according to my family history), I have an abnormal development of the hypocampus of my brain, I have abnormal structures in my cerebelum, my toes are of an abnormal size and their nail growth is abnormal, I have an abnormal genetic struture.

    These are not all of the areas where abnormal is mentioned in my medical records. Another term that is commonly used when talking about homosexuality is moral. Morality is also a subjective term.

    While I am singel at the moment, I would very much like to have children, however some consider my desire to have children not to be moral as there is a high possibiliy that any children that I have will have the same "abnormalities" that I have.

    Just so as you know that although many consider me to be abnormal, I see my self as being normal, I also accept the term abnormal when it is applied to me, as I do differ in such a large way than what is average in a person of my age and gender

  51. BBC


    Thanks, that was well said. It was enlightening.

  52. Hardy

    @Epicurus very well said. You can read the brainwashing and peer pressure through @savedbygrace's posts, it's very disturbing.

  53. Rosie

    Best Documentary Ever: Fellow human beings- We are all in this world together, to work with each other, not against each other. Life is hard enough, let us all work together. Even if we do not agree, each person has the right to live. We are born the way we are, each one of us unique, and if you believe in God the creator, we are equals in God's eyes. One individual or a group of people do not get to interpret God or the bible for the whole. The bible has been translated numerous times from the original documents, which were edited and chosen from many more ancient texts. We all have the right to life.

  54. Charles B.

    savedbygrace: You seem fine to me. 10 years of freedom doesn't sound like you need to visit some non-believing psychologist to tell you want to do. I hear that psychologist have one of the highest suicide rates around. Hum. Let's think about that for a while, shall we? I would ignor all the suggestions that you go back into sin or do anything other than what you're doing now, including the counseling unless it's with a Christian pastor, etc. I hope you write a book about your life someday.

    apple: Have kids if you want them, but adopt if you don't want to pass on your medical conditions. Your post seemed like you were comparing apples and oranges; a disease is a misfortue, but homosexuality is a moral issue. It souded a bit illogical to me.

    Rosie: That was the biggest load of horse pucky I've read for a long time. You make me want to vomit just thinking of your psudological argument to all your "fellow human beings".

    Mr. Razor: I always respect your posts, I just wish they weren't so anti-Christian at times. Perhaps there is more to reality than you are willing to admitt. Isn't there at least the possibility that there is a God and He's at least tried to make Himself know to humankind in some way?

  55. Charles B.

    Mr. Razor: P.S. I don't cherry pick the Bible; God is God, even in ways I don't particularly understand and very very rarely don't entirely like, such as the story where God asks Abraham to sacrifice Isaac (even though He didn't allow Abraham to do it ultimately). That's hard to understand or explain. The judgement passages I can at least wrap my head around within my concept of God's justice. Peace.

  56. Joe_nyc


    Your post made me think. Thank you.

  57. Achems Razor

    @ Charles B:

    No man made Gods, No man made Devils. All religion is man made.

    You know that I know, there is more to reality than we can see. But it ain't Gods, Devils and Religion!

  58. Mr. Balls

    Finally had a chance to watch this. What a moving and heartfelt film. I can't help but wonder about a belief system that actually puts some parents in the position of rejecting their own children. As a father of a 2 year old girl, I'd call myself a failure if someday she were too afraid to tell me she was gay.
    I wish some of the religious posters would pay close attention to the section that talks about how damaging it is for gay people to have to be closeted and live a life of denial. That's the reason for the high suicide rate- not demonic possession.

  59. Chris

    @ Achems

    Seriously, by what evidence can you be so convinced about the absence of God?

    While it is evident that "religion" is only man's poor attempt to reach and explain God, and has perpetuated great evil in the world, it is not reasonable to equate how man's religion portrays God with the person of God Himself. Should I say that I know you solely by those who claim to know you but do not? Should I believe slander, hearsay or made up tales about you -- and then claim that I know you? You would be insulted, as God must be insulted by religion.

    The only way to truthfully know that there is no God is to have traveled to all places both in this universe and without. I can see how you may say that you see no evidence of God, but that is a far leap from reaching a solid conclusion that therefore there IS no God. That type of thinking is not very scientific.

    Again, to equate traditional organized religious teachings as representative of a revelation of God is unjust. And to thereby claim there is no God is hubris.

  60. Hardy

    @Archems: I think that if a higher being created us, the chance that it left a book for us to chose from a variety of religious books is too random to be a possibility.

    It's sad the discussion here ended so abruptly, it was actually kind of fun. Oh well, at least we can end it with the score:

    Religees: 0
    Rationals: 1

  61. Gabby


    I totaly agree with you.

    @Chris "Seriously, by what evidence can you be so convinced about the absence of God?"

    and I ask you... Seriously, by what evidence can you PROVE that there is an invisible man in the sky and a bad man, also invisible, down underground?

    you ask by what evidence? eyes! I DO NOT belive in invisible things, if i can't see them they are non existent

  62. Epicurus

    @chris funny what evidence do you know there is no god? by the same evidence i have to know there is no invisible teapot that floats between here and mars....the same evidence i have to know that flowers are not the result of fairies dancing in the garden.

    the lack of ANY evidence for something so intrusive as a conscious creator of EVERYTHING is a good sign that no such thing exists...

    not to mention the ability to explain the formation of all of this WITHOUT the need to invoke some magical deity that exists outside our realm of logic and physics.

  63. Achems Razor

    @ Chris:

    What you have said could also be used to make a case against "no" God.

    I will say what I have said on other docs, according to the grand scheme of things, "the Earth, us Humans, are just not in proportion to the Universe, we are way, way to small"!! To completely know all answers.
    And I again say, YET!!

    I have borrowed this phrase from Prof. Richard P. Feynman.

  64. Achems Razor

    @ Hardy:

    It's not over until the fat lady sings!


  65. Chris

    To all: Let's keep it as civil as possible shall we?

    @ Gabby: There are many things that you have never seen but in which you have accepted as real solely on the word of others. Your argument fails on that point.

    @ Epicurus: The question I asked was not an attempt to PROVE the existence of God. On this forum, there are many who insist that God does not exist without providing any proof. Many scientific theories are based upon excluding things as well as including them. If you wish to exclude the existence of God, an argument must be made were it is shown that this exclusion is a logical step. What is that step?

    My point would be that, to this date, the physical universe cannot explain its own existence. And while many interesting theories and ideas have been proposed, for each one, there exist fatal paradoxes and inconsistencies. Contrary to your claim, there is NOT the ability to explain the formation and current state of the physical universe based upon current information and theories.

    On this site, there is a interesting documentary by Lawrence Krauss -- an atheist by the way -- who gives a talk on our current picture of the universe. It is called 'A Universe from Nothing.' In this lecture, one of the strongest criticisms Krauss makes of both religion and science is the pride and arrogance shown in the claim that they know everything. Don't you think you make the same mistake?

    As a non-religious believer, I attempt to study and discover truths without an appeal to traditional beliefs and religious myths (like a 6k year old earth, or 6-days of creation, or dinosaurs on Noah's ark, or even going to heaven when you die - none of which are actually in the Bible). In religious circles I find far too many closed minds and hearts. But I find just as much illogical 'religious fervor' in non-believers who cling to their non-proven so-called scientific dogmas.

    It's not that information that is missing that will fill in the knowledge gaps when found. Current theories do not hold water when examined in the full light of day. Some are as much myth and wishful thinking as much as religion. I'd offer examples but you could just as easily google them yourself.

    Therefore, I stand by my comment that it is pride and hubris to insist in the nonexistence of God. At least agnostics are not so prideful as to not be open to argument.

  66. Chris

    @ Achems

    "What you have said could also be used to make a case against “no” God." Are you willing to make such a case?

  67. Epicurus

    @chris the conclusion to exclude god from a scientific experiment or theory is the pure basis of science. to not need to resort to any magical claims when trying to understand phenomenon.

    the logical step has been summed up as Occam's Razor.

    "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" (entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem)

    When competing hypotheses are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selection of the hypothesis that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities while still sufficiently answering the question. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood. To quote Isaac Newton, "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. Therefore, to the same natural effects we must, so far as possible, assign the same causes."

    now what evidence is there to show god is there...without any evidence to support the claim, there is no reason to take it serious.

  68. Chris

    "by the same evidence i have to know there is no invisible teapot that floats between here and mars….the same evidence i have to know that flowers are not the result of fairies dancing in the garden."

    I suppose this would be your logical argument, then? It's a good argument for the non-existence of martian teapots. And your non-existence of flower-producing-fairies argument could be well-supported by empirical evidence through observation. Well-argued supported arguments. I concede to your superior logic on these two points. Congratulations and thank you. I'll abandon my foolish martian teapot beliefs immediately.

    Now show me the supported logic of your non-existence of God argument.

  69. Chris

    seems our replies have crossed each other.

  70. Vlatko


    God is only a vague word and you have to define it first. What do you mean by God?

    1. Autocratic omnipotent deity that looks upon us from the sky. If yes which God that will be? Christian (Catholic, Protestant....), Muslim (Shi'a, Sufism, Sunni...), Buddhist (there is no God here) and so on...

    2. Invisible force that rules the universe,

    3. UFO, ETI

    4. .........

    So what do you mean when you say God? When I say Gravity I mean the force that holds us on the planet and holds the Moon around the Earth, and Earth around Sun. The point is that the word God is very vague and undefinable. Therefore how can you expect someone to prove the non-existence of undefined, vague entity.

    I could easily say: There is no proof that mermaids don't exist. And there isn't really (except nobody sow them and there are no fossils). However until you offer me strong, valid evidence of their non-existence I choose to believe that there are mermaids out there.

    The same goes with Loch Ness Monster, Santa Claus, Yeti Bigfoot... and God.

  71. Hugh

    I struggle with the image of Jesus Christ savagely beating someone while John is pinning them down yelling "Death to the faggots".

    I don't remember that passage, but it clearly must be in the Bible if so many followers of Christ's message promote it. I always thought Jesus spread the message of love but as I get older and watch his disciples' actions I have come to the realization that Jesus must been handing out blinders. I think the Bible needs an amendment, Love thy neighbor...unless they are gay or not Christian.

    You can read the Bible day in and day out, but that doesn't mean you get it.

  72. Chris

    I have no direct evidence for the existence of God, leastwise evidence you would accept as evidence. If you look through my threads, you will see that I have never made that claim. However, the cosmological argument that I have presented on another thread on this site, while it does not directly prove the existence of God, logically eliminates any other option.

    In this instance, Occam's Razor argues against the non-existence of God in that almost every theory I have studied employs the existence of impossible things. Not improbable - -impossible. One solid example would be their dependence upon infinite regress and absolute infinities - -both impossibilities in the physical universe.

    I cannot pull God out of a hat for you. But I can demonstrate how there is no other logical or scientific solution.

  73. Chris

    @Hugh: The behavior you are describing is not biblical and is a good example of "religion" not representing God. I share your revulsion. Bigots can be believers or nonbelievers.

  74. Hugh

    @Chris: I'm glad to hear we meet on a common ground.

    Here's a question, and I ask this in respect despite how it may sound; if Jesus' message was of love, and the Bible is continuously used as a means of war, why do the followers of Jesus' message keep to it? Is it a necessity to the Christian faith? Jesus did have one....

    Here's a question, if Jesus had known that his teachings of love and compassion would be a source for so much intolerance, war and killing for the next 2000+ years, do you think he would have said a single word?

  75. Chris

    @ Valtko

    Deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole we merrily go… Let me attempt to sort this out.

    1. All the religions you mention are the various results of people attempting to touch God. They all fail. Why? Because they are man’s invention. If God is real, He is not material. If he were material, He would be a part of the universe, which means that He would not be God. Since man is material, he lacks a way to touch the “immaterial” on his own. If God was material and lived in the sky, we would have seen Him on the way to the moon. By this argument, we can rule out organized traditional religions.

    2. Your mermaid example suffers from a fatal flaw: Mermaids are not scientifically logical and logical physical medical proofs could be offered that would rule out the existence of half woman, half fish creatures living in our oceans. I cannot say the same thing for the Loch Ness Monster or Yeti. In this case, their existence is not impossible but would be improbable. I do know that lots of money has been spent in efforts to either prove or disprove their existence. I think that it can be safely claimed that neither of them created the universe since they would be parts of the universe.

    3. The cosmological argument - -when properly presented and defended – would define God as the perfect, self-existing and self-dependent Person who created the physical universe by His Will and through His Power.

  76. Chris


    The bible used as a justification for war is contrary to the message of the bible, regardless of any history. As I stated above, RELIGION is not a reliable source for knowledge of God.
    Alfred Noble was horrified that his invention of dynamite was used as a weapon of war when his vision was that it would solve many of humanities problems. I’m sure Jesus is similarly disgusted by the horrors committed in His name.

    But here is the real question: If Jesus is divine, there is no doubt that He would have known how His words would be used to commit atrocities. Yet, He spoke them anyway.

    Again, the answer to your question is that the misuse is due to the usurpation of Religion.
    If you would know God, you must divorce in yourself the idea that organized tradition religion reveals God. It does not. Religion is the most evil thing on the face of the earth.

    All over the world, religion has been at it for thousands of years, yet fails to demonstrate or reveal God. The logical conclusion is that God must be seeking something other than what religion has produced.

  77. Vlatko

    All right @Chris. Fair enough.

    Let assume that we accept the cosmological argument definition about God.

    But then wouldn't you agree that the next question is: Who created this perfect self-existing and self-dependent Person?

    I know the very definition says it is self-existing thus nobody created this Person but wouldn't be this also applicable for the universe in the first place?

    We can say that the universe was not created. It was and it is perfect self-existing and self-dependent. Oscillating from singularity to infinity and back through eternity.

  78. apple

    I just wanted to clear something up after reading some other posts.

    In my first post I was talking about how each and every person has a different conception of normalicy and moralaity. I look at my self and see my self as being normal regardless of my medical conditions (non-life limiting). I also accept that others look at me and see me as being abnormal. Those that see me as abnormal will never see me as being normal no matter what I say to them. So I just accept their view of me.

    Now morality is a little more difficult. Now in my case I have two friends, lets call them Bob and Frank for clarity.

    Bob looks at me and tells me that if I ever decide to have my own biological children it is un-moral of me to do so in the full knowledge that I may pass on my medical conditions to these innocent children. In Bob's oppinon I should go to my doctor and have serilization surgery.

    Frank on the other hand sees no problem with me haveing biological children, if I decide to do so. In Frank's mind so long as I love the children that I have, they adopted or biological, I can do as I want.

    Who is right, Bob or Frank? Or is it more important how I and the person who will make these children with me feel?

    As you can see Frank and Bob have opposing views on the morality of me having biological children. Both are equaly valid, although I do not agree with one of them. I accept both Bob and Frank for who they are as people. I do not have to agree with their views but I do have to accept them as being as vaild as my own. By the way both Bob and Frank see me as being abnormal. They still are good and important friends.

  79. Epicurus


    The argument for a Prime Mover is based on a foundation of Aristotelian metaphysics. Some physicists feel that the development of the laws of thermodynamics in the 19th century and quantum physics in the 20th century have weakened a purely scientific expression of the cosmological argument. Modern physics has many examples of bodies being moved without any known moving body, apparently undermining the first premise of the Prime Mover argument: every object in motion must be moved by another object in motion. Physicist Michio Kaku directly addresses the cosmological argument in his book Hyperspace, saying that it is easily dismissed by the law of conservation of energy and the laws governing molecular physics. He gives an example— "gas molecules may bounce against the walls of a container without requiring anything or anyone to get them moving." According to Kaku, these molecules could move forever, without beginning or end. So, there is no need for a First Mover to explain the origins of motion.

    It is argued that a challenge to the cosmological argument is the nature of time. The Big Bang theory states that it is the point in which all dimensions came into existence, the start of both space and time. Then, the question "What was there before the Universe?" makes no sense; the concept of "before" becomes meaningless when considering a situation without time, and thus the concepts of cause and effect so necessary to the cosmological argument no longer apply. This has been put forward by J. Richard Gott III, James E. Gunn, David N. Schramm, and Beatrice M. Tinsley, who said that asking what occurred before the Big Bang is like asking what is north of the North Pole. However, some cosmologists and physicists do attempt to investigate what could have occurred before the Big Bang, using such scenarios as the collision of branes to give a cause for the Big Bang.

  80. Achems Razor

    @ Chris:

    I do not see the point of this discussion, You say you have no direct evidence for the existence of God. And of course neither have atheist's that there is no God.

    This than is all based on circumstantial evidence. For pro and con,
    Thus we are making this whole discussion like a court of law, where the best and most glibbest lawyer wins!

  81. Achems Razor

    @ Chris:

    Also I was going to add, it seems from your threads on the CA. that the CA. is your "forte"
    So opponents, beware! and that is a compliment Chris.

  82. Chris

    @ Vlatko

    Since the cosmological argument eliminates any other option other than God, the line of questioning must leave the realm of the physical universe and enter a realm apart from the physical universe. This is the definition of transcendence (or nonphysical, or spiritual, or however you want to call it). I have no meaningful scientific questions regarding this realm because I have no hard data. Inferences can be drawn only by what it is not.

    The question of where God came from is as unanswerable as is the question of what is north of the North Pole. If you did not understand the nature of the North Pole, to ask such a question would seem perfectly reasonable. You know the question is meaningless only because you understand the nature of the North Pole. To ask the question “Where did God come from?” only demonstrates that we do not understand our own question. “Come from” indicates Causality which invokes Time. Time is a part of SpaceTime, which began to exist 13.7 billion years ago. You see the difficulty. We lack the frame of reference to ask meaningful scientific questions.

    Regarding your observation about the oscillating universe: The physical universe cannot be self-existing and self-dependent for the reason that we observe physical laws that would prevent it. The oscillating universe will not happen because that would require the geography of the universe to posses positive curvature which has been shown false. The universe is flat (see the very good lecture “A Universe from Nothing”). According to Krauss’s lecture, the universe will not oscillate.

    I understand why arguments for the existence of God are a cause for scientific consternation. The major frustration is that is does not and cannot answer all questions put to it regarding the nature of God and why creation is as it is. It is as if its logic leads you to a cliff and invites you to jump off. It’s understandable that people are loath to do that without asking a few questions.

  83. Chris


    If it is only a matter of winning an argument on the internet, I'm bored already. I have had this discussion too many times over too many years.

    So, what is my interest, then? You, for example, have posted opinions and thoughts regarding various theories on the origin and nature of the universe, and have sprinkled throughout that these theories support your atheistic view with the effect that you lend atheism a "scientific backing".

    The scientific concepts you have promoted to one degree or another have in common that they lean more toward a universe that depends only upon itself for existence. If the universe came into existence all by itself, then no god is needed.

    It raises the question, "Is that the basis of your atheism?" Do you possess scientific knowledge that shows that the universe is not a contingent being and exists of and by itself thereby eliminating any need for a divine motive power?

    Because as I look at these theories -- string theory, multiverse, oscillating universe, etc, they are filled with problems that cannot be solved given our current scientific understanding (problem with gravitons for example or infinite regress).

    It boils down to this: If you do not believe in God because of some science you know, I want to hear about this science and test its validity. Like everyone else, I am open to learning more.

  84. Achems Razor

    @ Chris:

    I look at all aspects, I presented some of them once to you and you thought I was spouting New Age Theorems or Eastern Religion. And completely disregarded what I had to say.

    I am still looking, and when I find something where I would not be laughed at, I will talk. Until then nothing new.

    All I can say for now, since you where mentioning physical laws and time construct to @ Vlatko, all physical laws and time construct break down when concerning Quantum Theory.

    My view point is that Quantum Physics will be the next new science, since everything generates from the micro.
    And I do believe they will find a marriage between Quantum and Gravitons.

    I am also still trying to figure out why Hawkings said the Universe probably came from nothing. From bubbles. (LOL) On..."How did the universe begin"

    If you know as to what I am alluding to, will be open for discussion.

  85. Chris

    @ Epicures: Sorry for the late reply. It is my turn to make dinner and I have young children to feed.

    The Cosmological Argument (CA) has progressed beyond the original arguments from the time of Plato. But let’s look at your argument point by point. Please tell me where you disagree and specifically why.

    I’m assuming the examples of bodies moving without a known force you are referring to are the photons / quantum level particles said to pop in and out of existence. The actual theory states that these particles are borrowed energy from the future, and therefore have a known origin. Also, these particles are popping in and out of existence in the quantum field, which is not ‘nothing.’ In fact, current quantum theory would indicate that what we used to consider ‘nothing’ does not exist. The obvious conclusion is that the fabric of Space-Time (the quantum field) is not ‘nothing’ and therefore everything within our Space-Time universe is dependant upon this context. Nothing is truly independent. Nothing can actually “pop into existence” because it must have originated within the vast energy of the quantum field of space-time.

    Yes, I watched the presentation where Prof. Michio Kaku addresses the CA from his book. I could hardly believe he would offer such a poor argument. If you think about it, his jar of molecules isn’t exactly a closed system because it is affected by outside heat. Let’s take his jar forward 100 trillion trillion trillion years into the future. Now all waves of energy have red-shifted to the length of the current universe. Soon all molecular motion ceases as the universe reaches absolute zero Kelvin. This thought experiment clearly demonstrates that Kaku’s molecules could not move forever and that their movement is heat dependent. Remove the heat and everything stops.

    Finally, regarding the CA and Time: What J. Richard Gott III, James E. Gunn, David N. Schramm, and Beatrice M. Tinsley are saying is that without Time, there can be no causality. I agree but only to a point. True that Space and Time came into being at the Big Bang, so since there was no Time before the BB, there can be no causality. Actually, there is no conflict with the CA on this point for the following reason:

    The CA states that because a causal chain must have a beginning, that there must have been a First Cause or Uncaused Cause. The term ‘uncaused cause’ is used to define an event that had no cause. This event was unique in that it had no cause. At this point, the CA does not attempt an explanation as to the nature of this uncaused cause. It simply reaches a logical conclusion, due to the impossibility of infinite regress or absolute infinities in the material universe, that there must have been a cause unlike all other causes (Was it not Mr. Spock who said, “When you eliminate all other options, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth.”).

    The term “Uncaused Cause” denotes a unique cause that is not subject to causality laws because it is the first link in the causality chain but the main problem with this notion comes more from semantics of language rather than the concept. Linguistically, “uncaused cause” is an oxymoron. Come up with another term that means Uncaused Cause and most of the difficulties disappear. Further, the CA does not actively promote an Uncaused Cause. It just does not find any other solution.

    Detractors claim that since the CA does not clearly define the nature of this Uncaused Cause, that it cannot exist, but that is poor science. The ancient Greeks in deduced the existence of the atom thousands of years ago, yet they could not accurately define its nature. And there are many phenomena in the universe that were predicted yet not observed -- black holes, gravitational lensing to name two.

    Finally, the concept of ‘branes” as a cause for the Big Bang. This is the string theory version of the multiverse.

    One of the fatal flaws for a universe without a cause is that it requires infinite regress. The Big Bang does not require infinite regress but leaves a big question mark as to the origin of the primal singularity. That is troubling to a lot of people. If the Big Bang was the result of some interaction within the multiverse, it still does not address the problem of infinite regress. In other words, where did the multiverse come from? Let’s say that in an infinite number of universes, one like ours must exist. If that were true, then we would have existed many times over for an infinite number of times. But absolute infinities are impossible in the real material universe. Infinities are only real in mathematics. Despite all the wishful thinking, they do not exist in the real world. Therefore string theory and the multiverse cannot be accurate descriptions of reality.

    This is a lot of information. Sorry about the length. I look forward to your reply.

  86. Chris

    @ Achems

    "I am also still trying to figure out why Hawkings said the Universe probably came from nothing. From bubbles. (LOL) On…”How did the universe begin”

    You may wish to view the lecture, "A Universe from Nothing". He sums up this theory quite well. I don't agree with some of his conclusions but that is to be expected.

  87. Charles B.

    Mr. Razor: A marriage between Quantum and Gravitons! You're just being a "potty-mouth" now, buddy. I don't mention those kind of words around my kids!

    But as long as we've got "Quantum on the brain," I've only finished the first one of those doc videos on the elegant universe---life is just a bunch of tiny pretty little strings of light. Cool. Ok. Now what?

  88. Hardy

    @Charles: Now you start to ponder about your place in this unbelievably large universe :-) And start a few more experiments.

    Will start watching the 'Elegant Universe' now.

  89. Joe_nyc

    Do we have multiverse Chris? Or is this same Chris who emailed Dr.Chow?
    This is confusing as tetraspace.

  90. Jimmy

    Why can't atheists find God?
    The reason they give is, not enough evidence. They have this unreasonable assumption that any evidence of God should be tangible & they should be able to take it to the lab experiment .Certainly, the way to find God is through faith . The people who solely rely on logic to find god are doomed to fail because of the fact they are spiritually impotent.

    Also, they ask this unreasonable question, what made God?
    This absurd question's answer they know inside their heart that God is eternal. Thus asking what made god is a asinine question!
    The billions of people who find God in the world is through faith not logic and will continue to do so.

  91. Jimmy

    Also, God would not be God, if human beings with their limited intellect, can understand him completely.

  92. Chris

    Hi Charles,

    Always happy to read your posts. The "Elegant Universe" is a very entertaining couple of hours but don't take it seriously. See my comments under that doc. String Theory makes sense only in the rarefied mathematical constructs of theorists, but are only hot house flowers unable to survive in the real world. So far, General Relativity and Big Bang cosmology are better predictors of observed phenomena.

    Hi Jimmy,

    I am in agreement with you. As the Word says, "God is Spirit and those who seek Him must seek Him in Spirit." While I believe that it is possible to comprehend and appreciate the objective reality of God ( the devil does as much) through logic and reasoning, it is impossible to know God as a Person except He reveal Himself. We cannot reach up but He reached down.

    Hi Joe-nyc

    Nope, sorry but no multiverse. I have a comment above that is awaiting moderation that explains this. And I have addressed this in other threads. You can google the terms 'absolute infinities' and 'infinite regress' to learn more about these concepts. But in the meanwhile: Both the multiverse and string theory's 'branes' require both 'infinite regress' and the existence of 'absolute infinities' -- both impossibilities in the physical universe. Infinite regress and absolute infinities are mathematical constructs with no basis in the real world. Their math may be used to solve real world problems but the math itself is not real.

    Here is an example: E=MC2. This equation describes a reality in the physical universe. So the math is useful as a tool. But that does not mean that the Speed of Light squared actually exists in the real world. If that were true, we would have faster-than-light travel.

    Pure mathematics needs the balance of observation and experimentation. Without that balance, mathematics is perfectly happy to take you down the rabbit hole.


    PS. Funny how most of the threads on God, Religion and Cosmology progress in similar manners.

  93. Chris


    Hmm. I think I miss read you last post Joe. Sorry.

  94. Joe_nyc


    Thanks, I got it now. I understand where you are coming from and will look forward to reading more of your scientific posts.

  95. Hugh

    @Chris, again I think we are meeting on a common ground, a distaste for organized religion. While I am sure we would forever sit on either sides of the debate about a "God" (meaning not necessarily a Christian God) or no "God", that is a philosophical debate which I can't see there ever being a clear answer to.

  96. Achems Razor

    @ Chris:

    Which God are you referring to?? @ Beck: on "Expelled, no intelligence allowed"

    Estimate of 28,000,000 Gods of recorded history, so you have a chance of .00003571% that you have picked the right God!!

  97. Achems Razor

    @ Chris:

    I realize you have expounded supernatural, transcendence, non-physical or spiritual. but supernatural is in the mind. It is not physical.

    So can everything just be a mind construct?

  98. Chris


    That has been a topic of intense research, and is ongoing. Some interesting finding have pasted over my desk that seem to identify particular activity when the brain is engaged in prayer. Nothing nearly conclusive because it is not dissimilar to just thinking or meditating.

    So, is God just in the brain and in the mind? There are some intelligent people who think that it is all a grand illusion. A colossal joke we have played upon ourselves.

    Here are two things to consider:

    1. If God is just in our heads, you still have to solve the problem of the origin of the universe. That is not going away.

    2. According to natural selection, natural processes cause species to become adapted to their environments. The ones who are better at adapting have a better chance at survival. Those species that are not as good at adaptation have less chance. Natural selection is also very efficient and economical. If adaptations show up that decrease survivability, those species do not survive.

    Since the belief in God/s is universal throughout history as far back as we can know, it must be somehow meet some need in us. If I'm hungry, I eat. If I'm thirsty, I drink. If I'm lonely, I find companions. The solutions to these basic human needs are found in our environment.

    The need to touch and know the divine, as well as our place in the scheme of things drives people, cultures and civilizations to find ways to meet that need just as much as meeting the need of food, clothing and shelter. Lots of money and time is spent.

    But of all man's needs, this is the only one not met environmentally. Think about it. It is pretty clear that religion is attempting to meet a basic need. If it didn't, then religion would never have caught on.

    If I am thirsty, a glass of water meets my need completely no matter my race, religion, background, age or gender. But religion, learning, philosophy, etc have been at it for thousands of years, yet people are still not happy.

    This is clear evidence that the need is real, yet the fulfillment of the need does not exist within us or in our environment.

  99. Chris


    As you can tell by my posts, I can debate the topic from every side all day long. In an earlier post, I stated that the cosmological argument logically concludes that there must be a God because there is no other logical option. However, logic alone never won the day. Above I also stated that the logic of the cosmological argument leads you right to the edge of the cliff and then invites you to jump off.

    Well, very few people are willing to do that when you see no net. That is why it is called "A leap of faith." When closely and carefully studied, the CA logic is sound and inescapable, so you know that you arrived at that cliff logically and correctly.

    But you have to jump by yourself. If logic is all you have, you won't jump. If you have to see it with your eyes and touch it with your hands, you will not jump. You have to move beyond logic. More than that is not appropriate for this forum.

  100. Mr. Balls

    @ Chris
    "2. According to natural selection, natural processes cause species to become adapted to their environments. The ones who are better at adapting have a better chance at survival. Those species that are not as good at adaptation have less chance. Natural selection is also very efficient and economical. If adaptations show up that decrease survivability, those species do not survive.

    Since the belief in God/s is universal throughout history as far back as we can know, it must be somehow meet some need in us. If I’m hungry, I eat. If I’m thirsty, I drink. If I’m lonely, I find companions. The solutions to these basic human needs are found in our environment.

    The need to touch and know the divine, as well as our place in the scheme of things drives people, cultures and civilizations to find ways to meet that need just as much as meeting the need of food, clothing and shelter. Lots of money and time is spent.

    But of all man’s needs, this is the only one not met environmentally. Think about it. It is pretty clear that religion is attempting to meet a basic need. If it didn’t, then religion would never have caught on."

    Maybe the next logical step in our evolution then is...Atheism? :)

    As we evolve to develop even more refined explanations for the natural world, doesn't it stand to reason that we should naturally evolve away from earlier and more primitive belief systems (i.e. religious faith)?

  101. Hardy

    @Mr. Balls: That's the logical assumption. What I'm really interested in is what comes AFTER atheism? :-D

  102. Achems Razor

    @ Chris:

    Re-watched..."A Universe From Nothing" lecture, Nothing is actually "something" which I have been saying all along, on other docs.
    It is the Quantum foam in nothing, Quantum fluctuations, that can cause the Quantum leap to form the Universe.

    But still it is a vast sea of energy, in a sea of infinite probabilities, basically empty space, until we ourselves coalesce, put together so to speak, into reality what we see hear and touch, I still hold to the adage that we form our own reality.
    Actually Quantum Mechanics says the same thing. What is your view point on this.

  103. Chris


    If we formed our own reality, by what process did we form it? By our minds? If that is the case, we would form our reality based upon our personal frame of reference. But then how do you explain the fact that we share a common frame of reference? An apple to you is also an apple to me. Mankind is unable to reach consensus on simple things like who to elect to office. How did we come to agree on the universe?

    Further, you would have to explain the structure of unintuitive things of which you may have no frame of reference. For example, the pattern of photons through a slit that gets increasingly narrow is completely non intuitive.

    Finally, since the universe is vast, filled with great complexity and enormous energy, if we make our own reality, by what power did we do this? Wanting the ability to do something does not impart the actual ability to do it.

    Anyway, that's my take on it.

  104. Chris

    @ Hardy and Mr. Balls

    Very funny. The point is that if we are the evolutionary product of natural selection, and this process is driven by who can survive better (ie: who can find more food and reproduce more), how does a spiritual or religious sense meet those needs? They don't gather food. They don't warm you at night. From a physical point of view, it's useless. And yet, there is a species on Earth of which the vast majority spends enormous amounts of energy doing useless things? By the laws and observations of evolutionary science, it makes no sense.

    And yet, an argument could be made that we are the most successful species on the earth. A domination that took the dinosaurs millions of years to accomplish took us only thousands.


    Clearly the need is imbedded in our species. And clearly, what is needed to satisfy that need does not exist in our environment or within ourselves. If it did, we would be satisfied. It's the logical conclusion.

  105. Achems Razor

    @ Chris:

    Well, what you are saying, matter forms consciousness, I say consciousness forms matter!

    I suppose that is where your God, Gods, come in.

    I will borrow what I said on other docs.

    If there was no one around to perceive the Universe, it would be a jostling place of potentials and unrealized actualization.

    Our thoughts are a Quantum event, through the process of entanglement all matter is constantly sharing information at speeds over a billion times the speed of light within the Quantum zero point vacuum. Our thoughts and matter are entangled.

    Thoughts are much more powerful than we may think they are.
    What we perceive as matter is nothing but a clustered ball of energy that we form into everything that is our reality.

  106. Cosmic Cop

    The evidence to me from the history of mythology of what man was trying to do at the time, to create a god of what ever flavor to answer what ever it was that was unknown at the time. Was simply mans first attempt at science. Poor Logic told him it must have been magic. As we learned more we quit throwing perfectly good virgins into the mouths of volcano’s… “Appeasing the Volcano God” … The problem of peoples Poor logic in today’s time, From where they find something that’s even more complicated than what was in question to begin with. Then not to question as to where the more complicated thing came from is OBOVOUSLY not going to get you anywhere other than infinite regression. And you cant say you don’t need to question the God answer because that’s what created the need for the God to begin with. Asking the question where did it all come from? Which shows God isn’t a logical answer for anything. Which is evidence against the God answer… so what’s the score so far? Quantum foam? Which came from nothing? And now its where did the nothing come from? … Well folks, I don’t know. But as long as it doesn’t want me to pray to it, I don’t care.

  107. Eric Howe

    @Cosmic Cop, "I don't know". That's one of more intelligent and mature things I've come across in a religion discussion. There's no need to invent and defend a big pile of nonsense, "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer when faced with uncertainty and complexity but it is even better when followed by "but I'm trying to find out".

  108. afly_on_the_wall

    the only sin is ignorance

    have unconditional love for the human family

  109. Chris

    @Eric Howe

    And you, sir, just offered the most sensible response I have ever heard on this forum. Please take a day off with pay.

  110. Chris


    Please help me out. I've read and reread your reply. This philosophy is not new to me. I don't see where you answered the question of unexpected complexity in the universe. If the universe is formed from our thoughts, either individual or collectively, how did the universe gain such complexity where it was not expected?

    Two hundred years ago, the predominate views were that the universe was static, empty space had no energy and atoms were solid. There was no such thing as radioactivity, general relativity, black holes, or Pluto. The discovery of the truth of these things was non-intuitive, un-looked for, and unexpected when found.

    If our universe is the product of our consciousness, where did these things come from? They were not in anyone's consciousness when they were discovered and were contrary to what was expected.

    If matter and the universe are a product of our consciousness, wouldn't matter and the universe be what we expect rather than something that never even entered our imagination?

  111. Epicurus

    Im an evolutionary psychology major and my position is that religion and belief in all sorts of supernatural things has absolutely been a beneficial adaptation which we have evolved in order to help us with becoming more social and also surviving trying times that we couldn't explain.

    HOWEVER this in no way concludes that god is real. much like dumbo with his magic feather....the feather wasn't really magic, dumbo just needed the motivation. or like a child with a pacifier. it is helpful for the development of the child and to make them feel secure, but as they get older you need to ween them from it.

    humanity needs to be weened off of our supernatural beliefs. they were useful in the past to bring smaller groups together and to get large groups through hard times together but with the numbers of people we have now and the different religions, this "spandrel" will eventually be selected away.

    if it weren't for the religion ideal of breeding to disgusting amounts i would bet they would be the minority by now.

    PS in the other page where you talked about the CA i showed you why it was wrong and you completely ignored me. so lets try again

    The argument for a Prime Mover is based on a foundation of Aristotelian metaphysics. Some physicists feel that the development of the laws of thermodynamics in the 19th century and quantum physics in the 20th century have weakened a purely scientific expression of the cosmological argument. Modern physics has many examples of bodies being moved without any known moving body, apparently undermining the first premise of the Prime Mover argument: every object in motion must be moved by another object in motion. Physicist Michio Kaku directly addresses the cosmological argument in his book Hyperspace, saying that it is easily dismissed by the law of conservation of energy and the laws governing molecular physics. He gives an example— “gas molecules may bounce against the walls of a container without requiring anything or anyone to get them moving.” According to Kaku, these molecules could move forever, without beginning or end. So, there is no need for a First Mover to explain the origins of motion.

    It is argued that a challenge to the cosmological argument is the nature of time. The Big Bang theory states that it is the point in which all dimensions came into existence, the start of both space and time. Then, the question “What was there before the Universe?” makes no sense; the concept of “before” becomes meaningless when considering a situation without time, and thus the concepts of cause and effect so necessary to the cosmological argument no longer apply. This has been put forward by J. Richard Gott III, James E. Gunn, David N. Schramm, and Beatrice M. Tinsley, who said that asking what occurred before the Big Bang is like asking what is north of the North Pole. However, some cosmologists and physicists do attempt to investigate what could have occurred before the Big Bang, using such scenarios as the collision of branes to give a cause for the Big Bang.

  112. Chris

    I didn't ignore you. My post is awaiting moderation by V. I don't know what is holding it up so here is a foretaste:

    @ Epicures: Sorry for the late reply. It is my turn to make dinner and I have young children to feed.

    The Cosmological Argument (CA) has progressed beyond the original arguments from the time of Plato. But let’s look at your argument point by point. Please tell me where you disagree and specifically why.

    I’m assuming the examples of bodies moving without a known force you are referring to are the photons / quantum level particles said to pop in and out of existence. The actual theory states that these particles are borrowed energy from the future, and therefore have a known origin. Also, these particles are popping in and out of existence in the quantum field, which is not ‘nothing.’ In fact, current quantum theory would indicate that what we used to consider ‘nothing’ does not exist. The obvious conclusion is that the fabric of Space-Time (the quantum field) is not ‘nothing’ and therefore everything within our Space-Time universe is dependant upon this context. Nothing is truly independent. Nothing can actually “pop into existence” because it must have originated within the vast energy of the quantum field of space-time.

    Yes, I watched the presentation where Prof. Michio Kaku addresses the CA from his book. I could hardly believe he would offer such a poor argument. If you think about it, his jar of molecules isn’t exactly a closed system because it is affected by outside heat. Let’s take his jar forward 100 trillion trillion trillion years into the future. Now all waves of energy have red-shifted to the length of the current universe. Soon all molecular motion ceases as the universe reaches absolute zero Kelvin. This thought experiment clearly demonstrates that Kaku’s molecules could not move forever and that their movement is heat dependent. Remove the heat and everything stops.

    ~ more in my next post...

  113. Chris


    I'm sure V moderated that post due to length and it's hard to fault him. Here is more from that post:

    Finally, regarding the CA and Time: What J. Richard Gott III, James E. Gunn, David N. Schramm, and Beatrice M. Tinsley are saying is that without Time, there can be no causality. I agree but only to a point. True that Space and Time came into being at the Big Bang, so since there was no Time before the BB, there can be no causality. Actually, there is no conflict with the CA on this point for the following reason:

    The CA states that because a causal chain must have a beginning, that there must have been a First Cause or Uncaused Cause. The term ‘uncaused cause’ is used to define an event that had no cause. This event was unique in that it had no cause. At this point, the CA does not attempt an explanation as to the nature of this uncaused cause. It simply reaches a logical conclusion, due to the impossibility of infinite regress or absolute infinities in the material universe, that there must have been a cause unlike all other causes (Was it not Mr. Spock who said, “When you eliminate the impossible, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth.”).

    The term “Uncaused Cause” denotes a unique cause that is not subject to causality laws because it is the first link in the causality chain but the main problem with this notion comes more from semantics of language rather than the concept. Linguistically, “uncaused cause” is an oxymoron. Come up with another term that means Uncaused Cause and most of the difficulties disappear. Further, the CA does not actively promote an Uncaused Cause. It just does not find any other solution.

    Detractors claim that since the CA does not clearly define the nature of this Uncaused Cause, that it cannot exist, but that is poor science. The ancient Greeks in deduced the existence of the atom thousands of years ago, yet they could not accurately define its nature. And there are many phenomena in the universe that were predicted yet not observed — black holes, gravitational lensing to name two.

    ~even more coming...

  114. Hardy

    @Chris: Because of our consciousness, we grew the need to explain the world around us. Easy answers kept us from using too much energy on these topics - hence the evolutionary advantage.

  115. Chris


    To the contrary, we have used a great deal of energy on these topics. We sacrificed livestock that could have fed our families. We built towers, ziggurats, and temples. We created time consuming rituals and oppressive religions. These behaviors are shared all around the world and as far back into history as we can see.

    I fail to see the evolutionary advantage.

  116. Hardy

    @Chris: Interesting. Will have to think about that some more!

  117. Hesus

    @ Hardy and Chris

    Beliefs try and explain the world around us. With the limited knowledge come limited or even wrong answers. I agree that a lot of energy and effort was wasted on sacrafice, religous monuments and so forth. However it was all done on to appease the gods. All for egoistical gain.
    Immortality, plentiful yield of crops ect. So in the minds of those people their energy was not wasted. However that is not to say all efforts in name of religion is wasted. Chris you mention zigurats. Later on those tombs to the cult of the dead became pyramids. At the time they were the pinnacle of a very developed civilisation. I guess you could argue that advancements come also from religion. Many advancements come from war also as from other places. So it is our elementary ability to invent and create that drives us. Conservation of energy Hardy? A subject alien to most Americans. Just say layzines so you dont confuse others. Also an elementary trait but this one we share with a lot of animals also. And you only need to look at nature to see what is right.

    btw were Yavanna and Solomon banned or did they go on a vacation?

  118. Eric Howe

    People seem to be assuming that evolution has a purpose or plan so every feature (e.g. religious or spiritual tendencies) exists because it serves some purpose. Evolution does not work that way, some features are just accidental side effects of the process.

    What is the purpose of the convoluted path from the testicles to the urethra? There's isn't one, the path is just a side effect of how our layout changed over millions of years.

    What is the purpose for the ridiculous path that nerves take from the brain to the larynx? There isn't one, the layout is just a side effect.

    Human eyes are inside out, the nerves and blood vessels are inside the eye between the incoming light and the photoreceptor cells. Is there a purpose to this? No, stuff happens and we're stuck with it.

    There is even some evidence to suggest that spiritual experiences require specific hardware support in the brain and not everyone has this hardware. Spirituality could just be a side effect of the way mammalian brains have evolved, there is no need to possit a purpose for it

  119. Mr. Balls

    "To the contrary, we have used a great deal of energy on these topics. We sacrificed livestock that could have fed our families. We built towers, ziggurats, and temples. We created time consuming rituals and oppressive religions. These behaviors are shared all around the world and as far back into history as we can see.

    I fail to see the evolutionary advantage."

    Given religion's proven efficacy as a mode of social control, you could argue its development was an absolute evolutionary advantage. Its ability to allow people to coalesce around a few basic principles and moral obligations would give societies the ability to grow larger, more dense and more specialized in even the the earliest civilizations. You're right though, in that much of the activity involves wasted time & energy, (e.g. internet chat rooms!) which is why I suggested that finally discarding these outmoded belief systems might well be the next step in man's evolution.

  120. Achems Razor

    @ Chris:

    Good questions.

    I suggest you watch..."Primacy of Consciousness" here on TDF.

    Also Google..."Julian Barbour" a theoretical physicist, on his end of time theory.

    And then if you just Google... "Quantum", will be more detail of what I am talking about.

  121. Epicurus


    there is no point in me making long drawn out responses to everything you said because most of it was just wrong in general. nothing about the moving particles in Kakus experiment had to do with heat. Kaku also certainly did control for a closed system. to think someone with a doctorate in their field would make such amateur mistakes in an experiment shows you either dont understand the process scientists use, or you are being disingenuous.

    i will respond to this though. you said the CA only makes the argument to show that an infinite regression for the universe is illogical, so what it does is ASSUME an entity that doesnt obey the rules of logic that apparently everything else must, then neglects to explain how it can be.

    making up a magic being to explain something that you dont have enough information for is just sad.

    In no way is the cosmological argument sound or even taken serious by most philosophers.

  122. Chris


    I too will not bother with long drawn out responses. After all, this is just an internet chat room and nothing is at stake.

    I will only make the point that you are making statements that are based solely upon your opinion and the opinions of your social circle. You 'beg the question' sir. You draw conclusions where none are warranted based upon your limited exposure to the world, to logic and to science.

    University has not changed all that much since I was a graduate student over 30 years ago. It is a rarefied environment that exposes its students to vary narrowly defined points of view, research and experience. In 25 years, you will look back on your viewpoints now and wonder how you could have believed such things. You will learn and appreciate the difference between wisdom and knowledge. And that experience will not be unique to you. It has been the experience of all students for longer than there have been universities.

    Good luck with your studies.

  123. Epicurus

    @chris on the contrary VERY much has changed in 30 years since you were in school.

    i didn't go to university until after being out of school for 5 years and traveling and living a very cultured life rife with experience. i have had more life experience than most others have by the time they are 50.

    you sir are the one with the limited exposure to science thus needing a god to explain what you dont know. and nothing in logic would support a god. unless your assumptions and faith are logical grounds to base something as important as a god.

    dont patronize me. in 2500 years humans will look back with utter embarrassment and disappointment at our superstitious beliefs and the ability for those beliefs to infect otherwise intelligent people and hold civilization back for so long.

  124. rtm

    @ Epicurus

    I think that in our day and age procreating could be dangerous. But at the same time has to be done to continue our race. I definately believe that homosexuals procreating should not go unpunished, because they are passing down those genes, that have a higher chance to swich on, in their children. So they should step into the light and admit who they are. The reason homosexuals, transexuals, etc, exist today is because they were shunned throughout history and passed their genes down through the generations because they wanted to be accepted. Homosexuality is definatly a natural occurence but by no means is it "normal", and i believe I've already explained what "normal" means. And If they considered themselves normal they'd stop making parades, showing how their seprate from everyone else. They are different from the "norm" and there is no solid arguement to say otherwise. "Normal" also doesn't exclude all those people who are constantly trying to be "different" and unique just so they are not steriotyped.
    But no one seems to care about these issues . Everyone just wants to get paid and laid, and equal rights, but as any well educated person know very well we are not all equal and should not have equal rights, because it will offset the balance of our entire existence. Based on how everything in todays society is going, where/how do you see our existence in the next 300 years. Maybe instead of trying to justify how things are ok in our society and give rights to every and anyone who complains long enough for them, put the foot down and stop these cases at the root through science technology, and engineering.
    Anyone who doesn't want to have kids should have that choice. Lets have more sex and less children, see where that goes. Quite the neat experiment huh?

  125. Chris


    More homework! Thanks a lot, Achems. Okay, I will review your sources for a refresher and to see if there is anything new to learn since I first encountered this philosophy in college. As I recall, this is an logical argument in that we know and experience only our perceptions apart from which nothing else of reality exists. Reality is us and is from us. At its core, it makes us the gods we seek.

    I seem to recall a question I asked my philosophy prof in that: Does not this view force us into a rather awkward position trying to explain what happens to the universe when no one was looking in order to perceive it, and thereby give it reality? Especially since the universe is older than mankind? Who was around to perceive it. To plug up this hole, some thinkers, like Kant, who supported this philosophy, advocated for an underlying 'physical' reality in addition to reality of the perceived reality in our minds, and that these realities were refections of each other.

    As I said, I will look into it and return my response. But, barring anything new that has been added to this argument, it still avoids the question of explaining unexpected and nonintuitive information. If everything originates from us, would not reality be what we expect, either individually or collectively?

    Cheers Achems.

  126. Chris

    Thanks Joe,

    Yes, this is the same video recommended by Achems. I watched it. I'll have to watch it a couple of times to fully understand all of it. It's an interesting idea with intriguing implications, but I didn't see anything connected to my above question. I'll have to try his other recommendations for more information.

    Are you versed in this? Perhaps you can explain how Julian Barbour's ideas about time have anything to do with the notion that we create the reality through our consciousness.

  127. Chris

    Try this one on for size. As we increasingly reduce the size of the matter we are examining, the structure/reality of the matter begins to fade to nothing. The smaller we go, the less substance and structure we encounter. Matter turns to energy and then pops in and out of existence. It could be that this represents the true form of reality.

    It could be that the problems between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanical theory are only an aspect of a scaled up "observer effect". The nature of reality could function like a wave on the scale of the very small simply because we cannot observe it. But, because we can observe the macro world, it's wave function collapses into General Relativity.

    Perhaps "someone" is observing. I doubt it is us. We lack an adequate vantage point in which to observe the universe in all its scales.

  128. Achems Razor

    @ Chris:

    Julian Barbour's ideas are that time is an illusion, means that everything is static, the Uiverse, and all probable Universes. He postulates that everything already happened, that we are pulling out snapshots so to speak of our now's, and our now's are giving linear motion thus linear time.

    Now, this is where infinite probabilities come into play, we may choose many different courses of action in our lives. Every course of action will therefore change our reality, head us on a different path so to speak, thus we are forming our reality constantly, faster than the speed of light. And since according to Quantum, our thoughts are entangled with matter, since matter is energy that is void of form, we are molding that energy into matter that seems solid, into things of form, that includes us as well. Therefore we are making our own reality en mass.

    Also, if there is no time, everything is an illusion. Everything is in our heads, everything is a mind construct. Actually where else could it be, if not in our heads? if you know, than you tell me.

  129. Achems Razor

    @ Chris:

    Yes, I agree, just the act of observation, changes Quantum results in experiments.

    Any input is welcome, but than you are referring to a "someone" that may be observing instead of us.
    No offence but that, just doesn't cut it with me.

  130. Epicurus

    @rtm what is wrong with homosexauls passing on their genes?

    im sure 1000 years ago there were many things we wouldnt deem normal. normal is culturally subjective. also normal doesnt specifically mean ideal or best. odd or queer doesnt specifically mean bad or negative.

    there are evolutionary explanations for homosexuality so dont think it is some weird deviation of nature.

    Genes for homosexuality could be beneficial on the whole. In bonobo chimpanzees, homosexual interactions are a form of social cement. It is possible that homosexuality evolved to serve social functions in humans, too (Kirkpatrick 2000). After all, social cohesion is still a main function of sex in humans.

    The genetic etiology of homosexuality may come from a collection of traits that, when expressed strongly and in concert, result in homosexuality; expressed less strongly or without supporting traits, these traits contribute to the robust nature of our species. The genes for these traits persist because they usually combine to make us better at survival and reproduction.

    Genetic factors linked to homosexuality in men apparently boost fertility in women. Female relatives of gay men, on their mother's side of the family, had more children than female relatives of heterosexual men. (Corna et al. 2004)

  131. Epicurus

    Kirkpatrick R. C., 2000. The evolution of human homosexual behavior. Current Anthropololgy 39(1): 385-413. (technical)

    Corna, F., A. Camperio-Ciani and C. Capiluppi, 2004. Evidence for maternally inherited factors favouring male homosexuality and promoting female fecundity. Proceedings: Biological Sciences 271: 2217-2221.

  132. Joe_nyc


    I don't know if you're up this early but I have to tell you that I think I understand what you mean by 'static'.

    Contrary to Einstein's Static Universe and Newton's River of Time I think universe is stable and time, well, doesn't exist.

    Reality only appears static because linear time forces us to view reality in a non-dimensional perspective.

    Think of time as coordinates. Passage of time is just difference in coordinates. We use time like a tool to measure the differences.

    Arghhh..head hurts. I need some coffee.

    Anyhow, Razor, I am really really trying to open my mind ;)
    ps. more and more I think about it I think the solution is in 'time'

  133. Joe_nyc

    'For that one fraction of a second, you were opened to options that you would never consider' - Q

  134. Achems Razor

    @ Joe_nyc

    Good morning, you are one hour ahead of me.

    Yes "Q" was right, we have different options every split second, that's what forms our reality.

  135. Hardy

    @Archems and Joe and Chris: I follow your discussions with great interest and am constantly driven to new thought by them. In addition, they are really quite entertaining :-)
    Thank you for that!

  136. Chris

    @Achems: Well, now wait a moment. Don't refuse to consider the proposal simply because you don't like a possible conclusion. That is not valid science for any logical or scientific line of exploration. You can't be afraid of jumping down the rabbit hole.

    Think about it. If the wave function collapses at the scale of the universe because it is observed, how could the observer possibly be us as we lack a universal frame of reference? In regards to an adequate view of the universe, we lack the high mountain on which to stand.

    As Joe mentioned:‘For that one fraction of a second, you were opened to options that you would never consider’ – Q

  137. Chris

    @ Achems, Joe, etc

    I’ve completed my consideration of Barbour presentation on his book.
    Einstein defined a clock as a cyclic event passing through an identical phase. Barbour doesn’t agree as shown in the following quote:

    “First, no system ever runs through identical phases, so this is an idealization that hides the true nature of time; it lacks Poincare's insistence, which I have repeated, that only the universe and all that happens in it can tell perfect time. Second, Einstein's clock cannot measure time continuously. It can only indicate that a given interval has elapsed when identical phases recur. It can say nothing about the passage of time in intervals within phases.”

    Barbour’s argument seems to be more of a philosophical argument rather than scientific. There is no way to measure the entire universe so it is not possible to determine whether any system obeys the principle of least action accurately. Nothing is ever going to be completely accurate or accurately measured so what is the benefit of rejecting Einstein’s definition of a clock? Einstein’s definition makes useful determinations regarding events occurring cyclically.

    Barbour is a bit isolated in his work. I have to admit it's a very skillful and intellectual piece of thinking but ultimately useless as it makes no useful or measureable predictions.


  138. Joe_nyc


    Don't mention it. Ever since Razor introduced me to String I try to spend few hours everyday to learn something-Quantum. But I gotta tell you, further I dig this rabbit hole gets stranger and harder to explain in words. And I think Julian Barbour ,even if we weren't there to observe it ;) , might have the answer to what happened before Big Bang.


    Let's drop "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?". IMO -it's a hypothetical nonsense like CA.
    Rather, I would like to hear from you what your thoughts on why particles flicker in and out of existence.

  139. Joe_nyc

    I think Barbour is talking about 'now'.
    Einstein's time only measures different reference points of 'now' as with linear time flows. But it has no way of measuring nor referencing 'now' itself.

  140. Achems Razor

    This sounds like a scientific expose but "Vlatco" have to assure you it is quite relevant to the doc. Gods, Bibles etc:

    I suppose we are trying to determine whether everything is a mind construct, whether maybe our consciousness is the Gods, everything hinges on whether time is an illusion or not.

    I have actually read Barbour's "end of time Book" in its entirety, got it out of the library a year or so back. Very interesting, will give much more detail. His short doc. does not give justice to the topic on hand. Barbour's work is much more than just a philosophical argument!

    I know it is hard to comprehend that everything already happened, that we live in a static Universe. There is no past or future, but only our "now's", we are living only in now, not in the past or future, our future is determined by what probable actions we will take or not take, or do with our now's, basically there is nothing else except "now", is there??

    There is no time and space... well there is , but it is illusion, actually Einstein said the same thing.

    One analogy, on Quantum, Push your hands out, you are creating waves, now those waves will instantly be felt into all space, into the far reaches of space, instantly. So says Quantum!!

    Or, and you probably heard this before, the waves a butterfly makes with his wings will cause a tornado somewhere in the world.

    What I just added is food for thought only.

  141. Achems Razor

    @ Chris:

    Me, afraid to jump down the rabbit hole? (LOL) that is all I have been doing on most of these docs!

    I suppose at times people may have thought I was a bit off the wall.

    Actually, I will not disregard any viable questions or answers, I suppose I was jumping the gun on what you said, I apologize.

  142. Chris

    Achems: Oh, you read the book? Did it mention how Barbour's static universe explains observed relativistic effects like GPS satellites experiencing time slower than ground observers using that GPS? Two different times, two different 'NOWS" occurring simultaneously only a few miles apart. I'll have to keep an eye out for his book but it really sounds like philosophy wrapped up as science to me.

    Joe: Theory suggests that these particles are borrowed energy from the future. Other than that, I have no idea. But if these virtual particles are actually popping into and out of existence, in order to preserve Conservation of Matter, it would support Barbour's idea because the past, present and future would not be separate. You could borrow the energy for the virtual particles.

    All: I'm off to visit my astrophysics professor friend for a grandchildren play date with several other families from our church. If he feels like talking shop, I'll try to pry his thoughts on the multiverse, string theory, Barbour and the rest of your weirdo ideas. : ) Ta!

  143. Joe_nyc

    Chris & Razor & All

    You guys have good weekend. I am taking my family to Shoyu ramen restaurant tonight and I will be discussing hypocrisy of three monotheistic religion with my 11 year old son :).

  144. allisson

    Me and my girlfriend of 4 years are extremely happy!! We are out of the closet, and have been since we met. both of our families strongly opposed until they saw how happy and complete we made each other. as far as harrassment goes, we dont notice it due to being so caught up in love. if people took religion out of the gay debates, only personal OPINION would surface against gays. interesting thought.

  145. Achems Razor

    @ Chris:

    GPS satellites "time" element relative to the Earth, are of course explained by general relativity.

    I guess you think that time is at a constant speed everywhere. Time is only relative to the observer.

    In dire stress modes at say, some some life threatening situations, it has been proven that time actually slows down to the observer.

    Everything seems to be in slow motion, is time actually slowing down? you bet it is!
    There is even some doc's. about that, I think on TDF maybe.
    And at times, time seems to be speeding up.

    One good doc. on TDF. "Do you know what time it is"
    By particle physicist Prof. Brian Cox. where he postulates, that we not only travel through time at the speed of light, but the experience we feel as the passing of time could be an illusion.

  146. rtm

    "What Time Is It Anyway"

  147. Chris

    Hello. I"m still trying to digest the results from my conversation with my friend Dr. Chow. Here is some of it but I have to admit, he drifts from English to mathematics very quickly. Some was difficult to follow. Just off the top, he is not fond of string theory, sees some problems with a strict interpretation of General Relativity when carried to extremes, but is of the opinion that it is the most accurate available theory.

    Re the whole time conversation: Knows of Barbour's work and actually met him, but he does not think Time is eternal or static because Space is not eternal or static (as per GR). The fact that there is a moment called 'now' is evidence that time cannot be eternal. There cannot be an infinite number of moments prior to the present moment. If there were, then we would never be a "now" because it would take an infinite amount of time to reach it.

    Therefore, since Space and Time are aspects of the same thing (as per Einstein) there is a 'now' moment, and the time of the beginning of the universe can be determined (as well as can be but more accurate all the time) to 13.74 billion years ago, the moment called "now" can be determined relative to the beginning of the universe.

    So, the question of "What Time is It?" can indeed be answered relative to the universe. And since we are part of the universe, it can be measured to a degree of accuracy relative to us as well.

    The question of Time is a part of his research which includes doing experiments with particles that seem to travel faster than light under some conditions. When I asked about the implied causality paradox, he launched to a quantum mechanical explanation (that Achems would have loved) about Time not functioning the same on the quantum level. He said, "At that level, the concept of Space loses its classical meaning as we experience it. If that is true, then it stands to reason the same may be true for Time, and therefore for our interpretation or experience of causality.

    More later....

  148. Achems Razor

    @ Chris:

    Time is a series of now's following one after another, that is linear time.
    According to Barbour, each now is frozen in time forever, since everything is actually static. say like an individual snapshot.
    So we do not have to wait for infinite now's at all. Dr. Chow is still thinking linear time.

    There is no infinite amount of time, or infinite now's, to reach our next upcoming now, the whole point of Barbours paradigm, his theory, is that everything is already done.

    Yes I know about how time functions on the Quantum level. When light travels at the speed of light, and if you could actually observe that by going the speed of light yourself, time stops, the speed of light stops, there is no time, there is still light, but it is going nowhere, everything is static. all motion stops at the Quantum level. period.

    Yes in Quantum there are faster than speed of light scenarios also scenarios to travel back in time.

    Will await more, it is all very interesting. Thank you.

  149. Chris

    @ Achems

    Really now, I think you are missing the point. Dr. Chow is not still thinking linear time because GR is not strictly linear time -- it is geography. Also, you are setting Barbour up as a superior reference to Dr. Chow. I would argue that point as well. Dr. Chow was able to explain Barbour's work to me better than Barbour's own video. Barbour works in obscurity and isolation while Dr. Chow does not. Dr. Chow said that he didn't feel that Barbour's work was valid science. I would not so easily dismiss a senior prof of astrophysics at the University of California at Berkeley.

    What are your credentials?

  150. Chris

    My apologies, I continue to misspell Dr. Chiao's name. It's an old habit I fall back into when I have not had enough sleep.

  151. Achems Razor

    @ Chris:

    Thank you, I glanced through the paper, will look in depth later,
    I see they are trying to do a Quantitization of the Quantum field for the gravitational field.

    They no doubt will try another medium instead of the YBCO type medium, for the Hertz type experiment.

  152. phillip

    The reason for so many differing opinions concerning this subject is due to our differing world views. In particular how one answers "What is eternal?" You have two options, matter or God. If you answer God then you confess that you are accountable to Him, if you answer matter then you are a product of random chance and are accountable to self.

    I personally believe God is eternal and we are accountable to him. However, in contrast to previous statements I do not follow God out of fear or compulsion "although I do have a reverent fear of God, and natrually so as he is God", but I follow and submit to God out of love. Romans 2 says that "it is the kindness of God that leads us to repentance", and I love Him much because I have been forgiven much. I believe that if you get a clear view of the God of the bible, you will find him irresistably amazing and worthy of worship.

    The bible does clearly teach that homosexuality is a sin along with many other sins. The bible also teaches us that those without the spirit of God are dead in their sins and will naturally live a life of sin, so I do not expect anything less than a life controlled by sinful desires from a non believer. I have two children, if one of them decides at some point to chase after a "homosexual lifestyle", I will not love them any less, however my heart will be grieved because I would know that their life of sin would ultimately bring destruction, emptiness, and despair. I would not treat them any different though, but would love them as God loves me. Romans 5:8 says that God demonstrated his own love toward me that in the middle of my utter sinful rebellion Christ died for me. Those that treat "sinful" people with hate are not loving as God loves.

    Also, the references to "religion" as the causes to all these autrocities in history is purely ignorant. The slave trade was ended primarily by Christian activists not secular humanists, and the last time I checked it was an athiestic and humanistic regime (nazi's)that caused the largest genocide in human history.

    As far as all the misrepresentation of the bible previously referenced, I will only say that I could easily take a sentence out of a lengthy letter you have written and make it totally mis-represent you. Otherwise known as proof texting. the problem for many of you and the bible is that you act as if you stand in authority over the bible and God, thus your completely self-centered beliefs, which leads us back to where we differ in the begining. You believe matter is eternal "you answer to self", and I believe God is eternal, "i answer to Him."

  153. Chris


    While I appreciate your post, it's most likely true that it falls on deaf ears. I found that there seems to be two categories of atheists represented on this site: Atheists who do not believe in God, and Anti-theists who will attack Christian beliefs for sport.
    Because they cannot see, they refuse to believe. And because they do not believe, they cannot see. It's a good proof of the fact that we believe as a gift of God and not of ourselves. God chooses who is a Son of Peace, not us.

  154. Epicurus

    @chris and Phillip. its almost offensive how certain you guys talk about god.

    also the use of the bible as verification for this belief is just mind blowing.

    also in no way does someone who is an atheist have to assume we are all random chance. most atheists would say this isnt random, its all necessary given the laws of the universe. why those laws are and how they came to be everyone should honestly admit they dont know without the need to add an entity that has no basis for its existence.

    ps the nazis were not atheistic in any way. right on the belts of the officers was "GOT MITT UNS" God with us.

    but typical that this would resort to godwins law.

  155. Achems Razor

    I have to agree with @ Epicurus on this.

    @ Chris: See what?? Why, and what, am I supposed to see? and to believe?
    And why should I not refuse to see and believe? is it not my prerogative? I class myself as a free entity!

    And if I don't believe what "you" want me to believe are you talking of heaven and hell? Or an undefined "Oblivion", which is trying to imagine a state where nothing exists. Such a state is impossible , even contradictory, since the concept existence, is necessary to apprehend it, therefore existence exists necessarily, even if nothing else exists.

    It seems now that you have proof of God, so let us hear it!!

  156. Chris

    @ Epicurus and Achems:

    1. Seriously, what's it to you? Why do you care? Was my reply directed to you? Will you attempt to correct everyone on this forum regarding their beliefs based upon your perceptions and opinions? Who made you the 'religion' cops? Is it alright with you if I do not check in with you regarding every point of what I believe and what I do not believe? Find one of my posts where I denounced one of your beliefs! Tell me where I said you were going to Hell! Tell me where I told you to believe in Jesus or you were doomed! I never said any such thing. But you hear the slightest thing that runs counter to YOUR beliefs and you become venomous. This clearly demonstrates that you fall into the category of 'anti-theist'.

    2. It is pretty clear that Man has three parts. He has a body (Bios) to communicate with the physical world. He has a soul (Pneuma) to communicate with the phycological world. He has a spirit (Pneuma) to communicate with the spiritual world. You know what your body is. You experience your soul as your mind, emotion and will. But you need your spirit to experience God, who is a Spirit. You can never comprehend God with your mind or emotions. They are the incorrect organs, just as you cannot comprehend "Blue" with your nose. Again, it is the wrong organ. But the only way to contact God with your human spirit is by making a leap of faith. It has nothing to do with your mind, so you are NEVER going to understand it. And that is why you cannot understand it. As the Bible says, "To the unbeliever, it is foolishness. To those who believe, it is the Power of God."

    3. Since you cannot understand it, I suggest you both stop trying to understand it and let others believe what they are going to believe.

    @Achems: I have already told you that I cannot pull God out of a hat for you. But by the CA, I can demonstrate that belief in God is not without merit. You strike me as someone who takes great pride in understanding and knowledge. I'm surprised that you reject out-of-hand an argument acknowledged to be legitimate by scholars far beyond either of our intellects. For example, Prof. Raymond Chiao is a serious Christian, and has been so for most of his 72 years. He is also a REAL physicist that handles everyday the physics concepts that you and I only play with. The paper I sent you is a clear demonstration of his scientific chops. It is a eye-opener to sit with him and discuss the science behind these topics, and then to hear him expound upon God in an intelligent non-religious manner.

    Are you so blindly proud to insist that you know so much more? I suggest you turn off the computer and get out more often.

  157. phillip

    Biblical Faith in God is defined in Hebrews 11, "Faith is being sure of what we hope for and the evidence of things unseen". So biblical faith is not blind faith, for you must have evidence to cause faith, and you must have facts if you are going to have evidence as in a courtroom.
    It is clear that I believe the evidence drives me to faith in the God of the Bible, while epicurus and razor you guys believe the evidence of the unseen points to matter being eternal.

    Before I start lets make it clear that we all start at the ground level of neither of us can "scientifically" prove or disprove the existence of God. But I will say that I believe that it takes stronger "faith" to disbelieve in God.

    Respectfully, here are a few of the evidences of the unseen God.

    Romans 1:19 says that "what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly percieved, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made."

    A. Creation- how you can observe the order of the universe, its beauty, the regularity of nature, mans observence of morality "right and wrong", and so on and come to the conclusion that this all just happened? Do you look at the stars, the ocean, and the mountains and say look at what the primortal ooze whipped up?

    Epicurus, yes you must believe that it is random chance unless you believe matter to be intelligent and therefore be God. Chaos does not produce order. You can throw a deck of cards up in the air a million times and they will not land in complete order. You don't find a rolex watch (with all of its intricasies) on the beach and say look at what the ocean made, you say what a fabulous watch maker. Creation declares the glory of God. Yes, different cultures define certain elements of morality differently, but by in large all people groups throughout recorded history share "do not murder, do not steal, do not lie", because we are created in the image of God who in his very nature distinguishes right and wrong. Is this all an accident, coincidence?

    B. Jesus: no human being has changed the world more than this man. 1. Jesus said he was God.- john 10. very few people have ever claimed to be God. Christianity only major religion whose leader claimed to be God.

    2. Jesus said he came from Heaven- john 16:28. some say they had a peak into heaven, jesus said he came from heaven.

    3. He said he was sinless- John 8:48. 4. He forgives sin 5. He said he is the only way to heaven- 6. He accepted worship as God- he is either a heretical cult leader or he was God. 7. He performed miracles- backed up his words with powerful displays of his authority. 8. He knew the future- proves authority over history. The Bible attests to his person and work along with non-christian historians such as josephus, and the martyrdom of his once cowardly disciples along with the wave of followers in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Centuries and billions to this day affirm his person and work.

    C. The Bible: I believe is the inspired word of God. Without going overboard on details I will just say there is a reason that the Bible is the best selling book of all time, and that no other book in human history comes close to the popularity, the use, the historicity, faced serious critique and opposition, displays life changing power when followed, and still stands today to be the most trusted in book of Scritpure in the world. Reading and trusting in God's word has also convinced me personally of His existence.

    D The Holy Spirit: The Holy Spirit opened up my eyes to see around the age of 13 the depths of my sin and the grace of God offered through Jesus Christ, and has compelled me to follow and trust him ever since. There is a mystery to the work of the Holy Spirit and I will agree with Chris that unless ones eyes are open by the Spirit one will not believe.

    I respectfully understand that you guys are convinced otherwise and therefore are placing faith in other things, but at the end of the day we all are placing faith in something. I have been convinced to trust in Jesus.

    I apologize if I do sound convinced. The apostle paul said that if Christ didn't raise from the dead then we are to be above all pitied...therefore I better be convinced otherwise I would be eating, drinking, for tomorrow I die and thats it.

    on a side note, I do admit that the nazi's did not necessarily have a state religion or athiestic roots necessarily. I was wrong to categorize them athiest.

  158. Epicurus

    @Chris THIS is passive aggressive smug bullshit "Because they cannot see, they refuse to believe. And because they do not believe, they cannot see. It’s a good proof of the fact that we believe as a gift of God and not of ourselves. God chooses who is a Son of Peace, not us."

    you think you were chosen by god and we (poor pathetic us) have not been chosen by the great god, to know of him. and when someone says that you offend them by acting that way you behave as if YOU are the victim. you dont have to tell me im going to hell your beliefs are explicit unless you have decided to cherry pick your religion.

    and once again like i demonstrated already CA is in no way a valid argument for any god.

    i dont attack christian beliefs for "sport". I dont "attack" beliefs. if anything your post was an attack.

  159. Epicurus

    @philip all i have to say is that it takes more faith to believe in the bible than to believe in the bhagavad gita or quran.

    nothing you said furthered the debate. you used the bible for your points thus a circular argument. the bible is not a source of credible information historically. it is nothing but a history of myth.

  160. Epicurus

    i just cant help it this is too perfect.


    "how you can observe the order of the universe, its beauty, the regularity of nature, mans observence of morality “right and wrong”, and so on and come to the conclusion that this all just happened? "

    beauty doesnt = a creator. everyday the sunsets and the colours it produces can be called beautiful, or the northern lights also beautiful, however there is no intelligent hand forcing that. those are simple laws of physics taking place and we have evolved to find it beautiful. also right and wrong is not objective. so that is a moot point. and no one says "it all just happened" we say it MUST happen. it could happen and it would happen and it did happen....not by any more of an accident than putting water in a cold environment and getting ice....not random, natural processes.

    "Chaos does not produce order. You can throw a deck of cards up in the air a million times and they will not land in complete order. You don’t find a rolex watch (with all of its intricasies) on the beach and say look at what the ocean made, you say what a fabulous watch maker"

    chaos DOES produce order in a closed system with a source of energy....learn thermodynamics....and if you even try to tell me entropy goes against cosmology, abiogenesis, or evolution i will have lost all "faith" in humanity and their ability to educate themselves even with all this technology and access. if there was an environment that chose for specific cards in a certain order and you kept throwing the cards up over and over and leaving the selected for cards YOU WOULD get order. this is shown easily with computer simulations. now the watch...oh the lovely watch maker argument. lets see what the difference is between a watch and a biological organism is...

    organisms, REPRODUCE, MUTATE, SUBJECT TO NATURAL SELECTION, and THE COMPONENTS OF CELLS (proteins, lipids, carbohydrates, and other molecules) HAVE THE ABILITY AND AFFINITY TO COMBINE WITHOUT GUIDING HANDS. argument is fail and has been fail for so many years.

    "Yes, different cultures define certain elements of morality differently, but by in large all people groups throughout recorded history share “do not murder, do not steal, do not lie”, because we are created in the image of God who in his very nature distinguishes right and wrong. Is this all an accident, coincidence?"

    do not murder, do not steal, and do not think we have these because of god??

    NO we have those because of social/psychological evolution. we have evolved in groups with one another and have realized that to make us as happy and comfortable as possible we would practice recirpocal altruism...that is how we have societies and civilization...god is the antithesis to this and it pulls humans apart.

    like you said you cant prove or disprove god...but you can stay agnostic in your knowledge and atheist in how you live your life and VERY EASILY debunks and claims made for god leaving the god hypothesis pointless and unnecessary.

    how come theists can make such broad sweeping intellectually void claims and when they are called out, they cry that they are being oppressed?

  161. Chris

    @ Epicurus

    Seriously, how can you say that the Bible is not a credible source of historical information? That is just such an amazing statement -- how can we ever take you seriously?

  162. Eric Howe


    There is little to no supporting evidence for most of the stories in the bible. We also find that large portions of it are just bastardized copies of earlier myths. Perhaps you should start your education with "Asimov on the Bible". Seriously, how can you say that the Bible is a credible source of historical information? That is just such an amazing statement -- how can we ever take you seriously?

  163. Achems Razor

    @ Chris:

    Always trickery isn't it? Your prime agenda was not to look at science at all to give us an idea of why we are all here, always trying to convert people correct?? just because you want to go the easy route and let someone else handle it, our maybe it is because of your God module in your Brain? your God,Gods belief does not mean other people share your beliefs.

    I do not care what you believe in, Have never denounced your beliefs, unlike you with all your snide remarks about us Atheists. Atheist's do not go around and try to convert people, we pound on no ones doors like religions do.

    Again with your snide remarks, you have no idea of what I do or what my credentials are, may surprise you! I do not flaunt like you do.

    I do not have "beliefs" as religions do about life, etc: I have "theory's".
    Never have I said that I know more, nobody hardly knows anything!! but one thing I do know, is no "SUN GOD" worshiping for me!!!
    Me-thinks it is passe!!!

  164. Tim

    The most damaging thing about religion (in my opinion) is the 'religious ego'. The submitting your whole self to a belief to the point that it blinds you from what's right infront of your face. The 'MY religion' or 'OUR God'. As soon as a discussion is raised that involves anything that goes againsts the religions, the ego kicks in. I'm not saying only people who have a faith have an ego, everyone does. But the religious ego is probably the most blinding I've come across. So.. there's no point trying to disprove someones religion, believe what you want to believe. We create our own reality through our beliefs, so If they want that reality, let them have it.

  165. Tim

    Hm.. thought I might just illaborate on my point there. Does sound very biased.
    Everyone has an ego which blinds them from a truth. The feeling that they're right & others are wrong gives a person a sense of worth. However, all it manages to do is seperate everyone so people feel less worth.
    Every single religion or spiritual practice, science, art, music & philosophy (etc), however very different on the outside all stem from the same one source. Thus are all connected & relevent. IT is the HUMAN EGO which puts things into concepts & containers.. called things there own. Says 'this is my country'. But really no-one owns anything. no religion or point of view is yours. Everything is everyones. We are all humans why the hell are we fighting each other? What does it matter what someone thinks.. all that matters is that YOUR happy.
    I'm not very good at explaining myself, but I hope you see what I'm getting at. Christianity has a point, the truths are there.

  166. Chris


    No, no trickery. No hidden agenda. Regarding you or anyone else, I have no agenda at all. And I think that a look at my posts would pretty well prove that I have tried to convert no one. As I told you before, I have an interest in learning more regarding the beliefs of atheists that use science as a basis or support of their atheism. I was very honest with you regarding my motives.

    I don't believe you have any credentials (feel free to correct me on this), not that it matters. A great many people are self-taught and express themselves quite well on this forum. Again, as long as you do not misrepresent yourself, so what?

    The ability of people of any professional or educational level to ask meaningful and thoughtful questions has more to do with the person rather than educational level. I have heard utter nonsense from some who have nothing better to do with their time than go to school. They gain knowledge but little wisdom. On the other hand, I have heard great wisdom from farmers with 6th grade educations.

    I have to agree with Tim on this one. "Religious ego" spans believers and non-believers. You could just as easily substitute "My God" with "Richard Dawkins."

    If I, though my time on this earth, life experience, consideration and education, have come to believe one thing or another about the world, the universe and existence that you do not share, so what? I showed you my arguments, you didn't agree, we moved on. I shared my opinions with someone else who did agree with me, and you climbed all over me with no benefit to anyone.

    I honestly fail to see where my March 30 post to phillip was offensive to you, or was false in any way. I don't agree with your "reality is created by us" beliefs and have outlined my thoughts on that. You don't agree with my conclusions. We kicked it around. We disagreed. We moved on.

    As a philosophical view of General Relativity may indicate, it's all relative. Move on.

  167. Achems Razor

    @ Chris:

    You are wrong! I have a wall full of credentials, but not from regular school. I very seldom went to school, learned nothing in school!
    It was and still is, self taught.

    Ever since I was 5 years old when unfortunately was enrolled in a Catholic kindergarten, turned off from school ever since.

    Instead of going through academic curriculum, challenged most exams.

    But that is all I will say about my personal life.

    Will ask you something, which of course you do not have to answer, am curious, are you a preacher??

  168. Chris

    @ Achems

    Hmmm. Do you mean, "Am I ordained?" No. Long ago, during my university days, I also attended a theological college with the intent of following that calling at some point. The dean encouraged me to leave the school when I wrote a couple of papers challenging the legitimacy of a formal hierarchal clergy/laity system and other established church doctrine that I demonstrated to be traditions lacking scriptural support. Somehow, they failed to appreciate my research, and didn't want me around to influence the other students with my seditious beliefs.

    So, I left. To thine own self be true, eh?

  169. Epicurus

    @chris the bible is NOT a credible source of history. if one were to do a paper on history the bible could not be used as a source. it would be less credible than wikipedia.

    just because there are certain places and times in the book doesnt make it accurate. in fact most books contain real places and times....

    the bible could not be used to argue any point because it is not credible. a talking snake? talking donkey? magic men that walk on water and raise from the dead? naming the man after a city that wasnt around during his time? a global flood? people living into their 900's?

    no that make believe book is not credible.


    this is what was in your post that i found offensive.

    “Because they cannot see, they refuse to believe. And because they do not believe, they cannot see. It’s a good proof of the fact that we believe as a gift of God and not of ourselves. God chooses who is a Son of Peace, not us.”

    this is absolutely nonsense and only claimed by someone delusional in their beliefs and who lacks an understanding of simple logic.

    "they cannot see so they refuse to believe....because they do not believe they CANT see....??? absolutely circular and void of any logic other than flawed.

    and yes claim we are flawed or not as good as you...and in the end not CHOSEN by god....ugh

  170. Chris

    Gee Epicurus, there are many religions all around the world that would condemn you. Again, so what? Look at how worked up you get. You must be an absolute joy to your family, professors and fellow students to be around. Please get yourself a prescription for Valium or switch to decaf.

    Again, I can see that you are an atheist. Okay. But you are also quite the anti-theist as evidenced from the heat on your posts. This not only clouds your logical, rational thinking, but is not in keeping with the spirit of the TDF forum as stated in the FAQs. You are downright anti-social. I would never want to meet you in a dark ally.

    Fine, Epicurus. You made your point. Your posts have all the depth of an excitable naive freshman. While I don't agree with you, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise because I can see that you need to grow up.

    What exactly do you want from me?!

  171. Epicurus

    @chris....right on, insults...great way to handle your posistion. yes i need medication and i upset my friends and loved ones...real mature.

    now lets see if you said anything of substance shall we?

    there is no heat on posts. i think you are too defensive and have a knee jerk reaction to anyone telling you that your baseless silly beliefs are silly and pretend that you are some sort of victim. which as you said clouds YOUR logical rational thinking and the way you view posts.

    im sure that where you live you arent used to people calling you out on silly beliefs but where i live people believing in magical deities that will judge all those that arent great enough to believe in it is not the norm and actually very very weird.

    but yes more insults about meeting me in a dark alley, poisoning the well for anyone reading this, because now they think im violent...which i have not shown anywhere in any of my posts other than your reading into them.

    and now i must grow up...yes you insult throughout all your posts and dodge away from any meaningful points that may have been brought up in my last post.

    just dont respond to me anymore im sure that would solve your problem.

  172. Chris

    God doesn’t exist.
    If God doesn’t exist, then if reason exists, then God doesn’t exist.
    Reason exists.
    Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    If I say something doesn’t have a cause, it doesn’t have a cause.
    I say the universe doesn’t have a cause.
    Therefore, the universe doesn’t have a cause.
    Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    I define God to be X.
    Since I cannot conceive of X, X must not exist.
    Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    I can’t conceive of a perfect God.
    One of the qualities of perfection is existence.
    Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    God doesn’t exist.
    God, if existing, is either necessary or unnecessary.
    God is not necessary, therefore God must be unnecessary.
    Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    Check out the world/universe/giraffe. Isn't it complex?
    Evolution (aka random chance) is a good enough explanation for me how they became so complex.
    Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    If God exists then I’m going to Hell.
    I’m not afraid of Hell. New Jersey is much worse.
    Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    [Arbitrary passage from OT]
    [Arbitrary passage from NT]
    Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    Look, there's really no point in me trying to explain the whole thing to you stupid theists -- it's too complicated for you to understand. God doesn’t exist whether you like it or not.
    Therefore, doesn’t God exist.

    Okay, I don't pretend to be as intelligent as you guys -- you're obviously very well read. But I read the Skeptics Annotated Bible, and nothing you say can convince me that God exists. I don’t feel him in my heart, and you are lying when you say you can feel him and see him working in your life. John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son into the world, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish from the earth?" That just proves what a evil, sadistic loser your God is.
    Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    If God exists, then I should believe in Him.
    I don’t believe in God.
    Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    See my fist?
    Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

  173. Chris

    And finally:

    1. B---s---!
    2. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    1. God doesn’t exist, you bxstxrds!
    2. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    1. Ha ha ha!
    2. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    1. I forgot to take my meds.
    2. Therefore, THERE IS NO GOD!!
    3. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    1. Some say that Eric Clapton is God, but I hate his music.
    2. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    1. There is a website that successfully argues for the non-existence of God.
    2. Here is the URL.
    3. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    1. Flabble glurk zoom boink blubba snurgleschnortz ping!
    2. No one has ever refuted 1.
    3. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    1. Telling people that God exists makes some televangelists filthy rich.
    2. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    1. The Christian God doesn’t exist.
    2. Therefore, all worldviews which assume the Christian God's existence are false and incomprehensible.
    3. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    1. God is hate.
    2. Hate isn’t blind.
    3. Ray Charles is blind.
    4. Therefore, Ray Charles isn’t God.
    5. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    1. Human reasoning is inherently flawed.
    2. Therefore, there is no reasonable way to challenge a proposition.
    3. I propose that God doesn’t exist.
    4. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    1. God doesn’t exist.
    2. I don't give a crap whether you believe it or not; I have better things to do than to try to convince you morons.
    3. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    1. F--- you.
    2. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    1. My toaster isn’t God.
    2. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

  174. Joe_nyc

    When did this thread turn into a load of rubbish?

  175. Chris

    Where is your sense of humor, Joe?

  176. allisson

    This has turned into a full argument. All i can say is some people are putting ALOT into defending something that may not be real. I see alot of people enjoying thier arguments under a cover of religion. Whether its insults or judgements, they always strike at you. Christians are not christlike. I am sick of this religous arrogance. SICK. Knock it off. No one likes a arrogant judgemental hipocrit. Leave other faiths and people alone. They take their religion just as serious, and also hold strong beliefs. You think your 100% right, so do they. bottom line, if your goung to follow anyone, god, jesus etc.. follow their good works and teachings. turn it all into positives. ALL.

  177. allisson

    anyone want cookies??

  178. Joe_nyc

    Humor? I think not. All I see is arrogance and bigotry.

  179. Chris


    I don't understand/like your humor.
    You must be arrogant and bigoted!
    Therefore God does not exist

  180. Joe_nyc

    I wasn't singling you out!
    But inadvertently you, sir, with last post, made it so.

    btw. Even my 11 year old son knows the difference between the Bible and the American History text book.

  181. Chris


    The Bible is not a history book. If read as a history book or a storybook, it will yield incorrect conclusions, like a 6k year old earth, or a global flood during a time when Babylon was continuously occupied.

    Frame of reference, religious traditional misinterpretation, poor translations, cultural bias, change in word usage, language drift, age, bias, and background of the reader, etc, all contribute to the Bible not being properly understood.

    For example, genealogies are not history. IMHO, in the genealogies in Genesis, the term "so and so begat so and so" is more legitimately translated as "so and so became the ancestor of so and so". Suddenly, there is room to place a global flood back to a time during the end of a known ice age, up to 10, 15 and 20 thousand years ago, when climatic changes could have produced conditions that may have made such a flood possible, and during a time that would fit better with known historical events. Dr Scoffield fielded the superior idea of a gap between Gen 1:1 and 1:2 in order to account for the millennia of the age of the earth as well as continuity with other verses.

    Recent news item confirmed remains of an enormous palace structure were recently unearthed within the Old City and dated to the era of David/Solomon.

  182. Achems Razor

    The Bible is not a history book???

    Than what good is it? if you have to change dates, occurrences, to keep up with modern findings. Now I am told that stuff in the Bible did not happen?

    Why, there is not even any conclusive proof that such a person as Jesus even existed. believe the Bible...Not.

  183. Jess

    All we need is love

  184. Chris

    My dear Achems, there is not even conclusive proof that YOU exist. If I were to ascribe to your way of thinking, you would be a product of my own mind. If I say, "I think, therefore, I am, that does not mean that "You are" as well.

    Go enjoy a beer and have a good evening. :)


    this video only gets better and better in the complexity and stimulation of 1 to think for themselves about so many aspects of culture or society of civil life . A MUST WATCH !

    i gotta admit that cartoon edu thingie is cool , the idea that he feamle body feminizes EXCESS males , is inharmony with instinctualism .

    i still believe the amount of male birth is an abonormality due to the selective breeding of a few 1000 years to man armys anyways . and that the female DNA knows the unatural ness of having so many males . all continues to suppor the idea we human are harmem based like our cousint he gorilla

    and it does not dis count the free choice potential deirectly , as exampled in common examples of the eefects of control or cohercion ( manipulation ) sexual stress and the need we have for sexual recreation and companionship . whihc in our current model is so difficult homosexuality can provide this core maslow need to be fullfilled . not perfectly but in a functional manner , use of relationship TECHONOLOGY to say . Just like porn can be a seuxual TECHNOLOGY or prositiution a sexual technology

    very good flick

  186. Zorba

    No religion has been courageous enough to say, "We know this much, but there is much we don't know; perhaps in the future we may know it. And beyond that, there is a space which is going to remain unknowable forever."

    A true religion will have the humbleness to admit that only a few things are known, much more is unknown, and something will always remain unknowable. That "something" is the target of the whole spiritual search. You cannot make it an object of knowledge, but you can experience it, you can drink of it, you can have the taste of it - it is existential.

    All these religions have been against doubt. They have been really afraid of doubt. Only an impotent intellect can be afraid of doubt; otherwise doubt is a challenge, an opportunity to inquire.

    There is doubt, and doubt is not destroyed by believing. Doubt is destroyed by experiencing.

    They say, believe. I say, explore. They say, don't doubt; I say, doubt to the very end, till you arrive and know and feel and experience. Then there is no need to repress doubt; it evaporates by itself. Then there is no need for you to believe.

    You have to be again innocent, ignorant, not knowing anything, so that the questions can start arising again. Again the inquiry becomes alive, and with the inquiry becoming alive you cannot vegetate. Then life becomes an exploration, an adventure.

  187. allisson

    ahh well said zorba.

  188. Achems Razor

    Yes, that was well said, @ Zorba:

    There can be no doubters in religion, as you can see from these posts, if you present any doubts, the religee's are ready to burn you at the stake, and if they could, they would, as repeated history shows.

    There are no new frontiers to explore in religion, religion is stale and stagnate and boring, no upwards mobility at all.

    Everything will always revert back to there God, Gods, Am I going against Gods word? etc: If it is not in the Bible or incongruous to accepted proofs and or completely outdated, they will invent new fanciful tales, basically add or interpret new scenarios into the Bible but never change anything, because whatever is written is etched in stone period.

    How many new fanciful tales have they invented as new truths according to there interpretations, such as "Water vapor canopy" surrounding the Earth prior to there great flood.
    "The creation of starlight in transit" and the "hydrological sorting of fossils" during the great flood.

    Or how about this one? that I pulled from @ Chris's post, March 31st. 2010 at 01:11..."Dr. Scoffield, fielded the superior "idea"??? of a gap between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2 in order to account for the Millennia of the age of the Earth as as well as continuity with other verses"

    That is all the Bible is to me, a man made book that they are adding to, even to this day!

  189. Epicurus

    lol and he keeps trying to justify in no way was there EVER a global flood. it would be impossible. the oceans would have desalinated and all marine life would have died.
    the gen1:1 and 1:2 excuse is might want to be a little more skeptical than that....or you can believe one day 2000 years ago a man got word from god and wrote that down....

    mind numbing

  190. Chris

    i repeat...

    1. B—s—!
    2. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    1. God doesn’t exist, you bxstxrds!
    2. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

    1. Ha ha ha!
    2. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

  191. Mr. Balls

    Wow, has this thread ever gone off the rails! I'd like to circle back to the point of the video, which is quite significant. It has to do with how homosexuals born into Christian families deal with their coming out, and how the parents react. The fact these children have been born into families that subscribe to a Christian theology that as a matter of doctrine treats homosexuality as sin, makes an already difficult process even moreso for these individuals.
    For those who say "Lifestyle choice!", I say who would choose such a path, as dark and difficult as it appears here? To risk the love of one's own family? To risk being ostracized from their communities? And how about the cognitive dissonance that must rage within an adolescent mind that is beginning to realize it's gender preference goes against everything its been taught is right? The high suicide rates should come as no shock.
    Homophobia is not limited to the Christian community, but it appears to be widely preached, which I believe opens it up to a fair amount of criticism as an outmoded and archaic belief system.

  192. Achems Razor

    Actually the comments are more interesting than the doc.

    It is still relevant to the doc. we are just trying to determine why so much blind religious ferver is involved with religee's, is it mind consciousness? are they are all grouped together as one unit and feed of each other? Is that what gives there religious thoughts momentum?

    What is the matter @ Chris, are you getting petered out, is that the best you can do?

  193. Epicurus

    wow. how childish chris. this is just typical nonsense from a religious person who has lost their case and the ability to make their argument

    Argument from Epicurus
    !. any idea of god humans have put forth is lacking in logic and evidence
    2. it would be absurd to take ANYTHING as important as the cause of the universe on faith.

    argument from chris
    1. things are too hard to understand
    2. therefore god dun did it!

    see i can be childish also, but making a straw man of anything is not honest.

    and the ACTUAL Epicurus argument against god goes like this:

    “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
    Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing?
    Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing?
    Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing?
    Then why call him God?”

    — Epicurus

    and then i ask you The Euthyphro Dilemma:

    Does God command the good because it is good, or is it good because it is commanded by God?

  194. Chris


    Your views are typical of freshman experience. The children are so quick to judge the parents, until they become parents themselves.

    The CORE problem with Epicurus's argument is that it is an Argument from Arrogance and Lack of Perspective. He feels he is in a position to judge God.

    Let's reframe the argument:

    Is the Stonemason willing to protect the Stone from the Chisel, but not able?
    Then he is not the All Powerful StoneMason.
    Is he able but not willing to protect us from the Chisel?
    Then he is an evil Stonemason.
    Is he both able and willing to protect us, the stones?
    Then whence cometh the Chisel?
    Is he neither able nor willing?
    Then why call him the Stonemason?

    Did it ever occur to you that God is a builder who created us, the building materials, to build something for Himself? Did it ever occur to you that God may not feel it necessary to include YOU in his councils. Did it ever occur to you that the Stone may not like the process of prepared for the building? Did it ever occur to you that the Stonemason has power over the Chisel? Did it ever occur to you that God may not ask your opinion about the whole process? When did the Potter ever ask the Clay what should be done with it? Did it ever occur to you that whatever God is doing, He is doing it from his perspective and divine purpose and not yours?

    The sheer arrogance of man never ceases to amaze me.

    Further, as I look at your arguments, they reveal that you are angry at God because you feel He is unfair and unjust. That is the basis of your atheism, not logic, not history, not clear thinking. You have an emotional response to the idea of God because you object to what you think are His methods.

    As I said before, at least agnostics are reasonable enough to say, "I don't know if there is a God or not." But I have never actually met a real atheist - only people who were angry at God.

  195. Epicurus

    lol im as angry at god as i am at Capt. Hook, or Dr. sorry i dont get "mad" or "angry" at beings i dont perceive to be real.

    the sheer arrogance of man to think he knows there is a god is what amazes me. the arrogance that man would CREATE a god that gives man a brain to reason and think with yet DENIES his ability to turn it towards the ultimate creator especially when his salvation depends on belief. what is arrogant is that you would presume to know why i dont believe in god.

    now even more important. if you would have addressed the euthyprho dilemma you would have found that your whole response to Epicurus' argument would be null.

    if only humanity were a stone....if only you could actually make that kind of analogy to something that suffers...and suffers for eternity if it doesnt "believe"

    no sir, im not angry at an imaginary being. that would be silly.

    now agnostic and atheist....lets examine that. EVERY HONEST PERSON IS AGNOSTIC. even the theist. they dont KNOW there is a god. they may believe or have faith. they may have had some experience or heard some voice and say it was god. but they dont know. they are WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE....AGNOSTIC.

    agnostic refers to the stance of what you actually know, theist or atheist refers to how you live your life.

    however i would go the step to say that im completely atheist towards a muslim or christian god or any other god man has made up, but i would have to be IGNOSTIC any idea of god as i lack a workable definition for what that being would be so im ignorant to the concept and cant know...but i live my life as if i have no god thing...thus atheist.

  196. Mr. Balls

    Seems weird to me when Christians will admonish someone by invoking the "God does not share his plans with us" clause, but also then not hesitate to share with you the rules God laid down (i.e homos are sinners) and HIS requirements to achieve eternal salvation. If God is this mysterious stonecutter that doesn't share council with the chisel or the stone, how does any Christian claim to know what is expected of themselves other than the selected writings of men that lived thousands of years ago? And why would those ancient "chisels" and "stones" have any more insight than anyone else?
    I think what makes me angry is not the idea of a "God", but the idea of God as portrayed by the existing monotheistic religions. Quite frankly he comes across like an alchoholic father. At times neglectful, alternately saccharine sweet, and oft-times domineering. All the while keeping his motives close to the vest, like a stash of booze in the cookie jar.

  197. Chris

    By your own testimony, you are not being honest.

    Gentlemen, I'm done. While I waited for your reply, I gave a bath to my 3 year-old-son. We just finished our graham crackers and milk. I have calls to return to three clients who want me to rewrite their existing websites. Later in the day, I'll dig a few post holes for a new fence that is going alongside the pond. I may even get to planting those flowers my wife has wanted for awhile. Tasks like these make quite a contrast to sitting here with you. Have a good day. I know I will.

  198. BBC


    If there is only one true God, then men can not be gods. We are not the superior intelligent beings we think we are. This is a natural conflict in a mans world view. Lets face it, we all want to be #1.


    I am not sure if you have a significant other. If you do, would you want that person to love you because they were forced to love you? If you truly want to know if someone loves you, would you not give them the freedom to choose that love? If the God of the Bible is real, and we think that He is malevolent; isn't He the opposite? If He is this wrathful God who smites all the wicked, He should of ended the entire world along time ago. Because no matter how good we all think we are (especially religees) we are not. We all deserve death according to God. Yet He loves us and is patient with us allowing as many as will believe in Jesus Christ, so that we may have true life.

    But this is insane, absurdity, and brainwashing. Its that damn VMAT2 gene. Sorry i was born this way. Is there a treatment center for this disorder i have? If i was born this way, then why should i be stopped from coming out of the "closet", hahahaha. Sorry i could not resist.

    But seriously, who says man made God? The God in the Bible is always separating Himself from the man made gods. He always says, that He is the one who is not man made. He is unseen, not like the wood and stone gods who are deaf, and mute. He hears, He speaks. "The Bible tells me so".

  199. Hesus

    Lol the debate has gone astray from the subject in point. I can only imagine what kind of torment gay individuals in a Christian society must go through. I wonder how many deny their sexual orientation. Get married. Have children. Probably more than we think. If homosexuality gene does exist (like many scientist predict)it could be inherited by children. So my theory is (and again this is just a theory) that the percentage of homosexuals in a Christian society is probably well above average. So their efforts to stifle homosexuality is a double-edged sword.

  200. Hesus


    Ok m8. Lets say I want to convince you that my god is the only right solution amidst a flood of deities. I would most certainly have to proclaim that all others are fake. I am sure that this assurance for followers is not limited only to your god. But let us suppose for a minute that only one god is true and all other fake or man made. This would mean that followers of this god would have measurabe benifits well exceeding others. Whatever they would pray would come true. If this were true I think by now all of the humanity would aligne with this god.

  201. Silver

    This documentary is good so far

    Also, I contrary to what this video said. I had no idea who Sodom and Gammora were until they explained it here. Probably because I've never been involved in a church or any other christian thing. My family never told me about it because they are agnostic/atheist, which I am as well.

  202. BBC

    If people are honest with themselves, at some point in their life they have thought of the same sex in a intimate way. Does this mean they are gay? Maybe it is curiosity. Little boys have sword fights dont they? Pee in the toilet together at the same time? I have. I am not repressing my homosexuality by the way. hahahaha

    I was friends with two brothers whilst growing up. One share common interests with me, "typical" (generalization) boy stuff. The other was always different, he liked dancing, and was in ballet, not such "typical" (generalization) guy stuff. We always shunned him. We did not allow him to play with us. He was different, we knew it, so did he. Does being artsy, or different mean that you are homosexual? Or that you just have different desires? We label it as homosexuality. He later went on to same sex relationships. Was it because he did not fit in, or was it because he thought of a penis as a kid, and because he was different from us (interest wise) that one day he decides he is gay?

    And people always are non-accepting of things they do not understand. Like his brother, and the rest of his friends we were non-accepting of him when we were children.

  203. BBC


    What you say is true, and not true. You know the answer i would give for this. And then we would continue to dance in circles around it. So i will refrain. But, God does answer my prayers. But you are right, not all, and not all of them are answered instantly. Some have come months or years later.

    I assumed the latter, based on your previous comment. Sorry if i put words in your mouth.

  204. Joe_nyc


    What the hell is a "typical boy" stuff and how would you know? LOL ;)

    Do explain how God answers your prayer. My sister, who went to theological seminary college, refuses to tell me because, according to her and my mom, I am a devil who is not worthy of her time.

  205. Cornervizion

    My gosh, such a long thread It's hard to get a couple of cents in, but here goes... To all the so-called (Mostly male) "Christians" who take the Bible out of context to suit your prejudices (God would not be best please with you all). Just chill out and love your fellow man, don't force them to "Change" it's gonna do more harm than good and could lead to further problems oh and one more thing. Gays and Lesbians are not trying to "turn" you or trying to have their way with you or trying to molest your children. (That's for the Catholic priets to do - ohhh. Love that satire) Anyway I'm a physically handicapped, atheist (come on then!) and beleive that every human being should be treated equally reagrdless. Having watched other programs about the subject matter It amazes me to see that people claim Gays want "Special Rights" to marry and have/adopt children. Rubbish! They want "Equal" rights! the same equal rights The disabled, Women and Ethnic Minorities are constantly denied. Come to think of it I can clearly see the root of this problem, most of these "Issues" are started by White, Able-bodied, God-Fearing, Men. I hope you get a diffrent non-religous point of view before forming an opinion you might be pleasantly suprised...



    PS. Forgot to mention that I'm male.

  206. Epicurus

    @chris, no im agnostic because i dont know if there is a god, im ignostic because i dont know or have a workable definition for this god being, and am atheist towards the christian or muslim god just like i am to poseidon and zeus and horus etc. they are all equally as imaginary.

    but im glad you had a great day.

    @BBC, i would certainly allow that person the choice to choose me...but would you punish them for eternity if they didnt choose your love? would you deny them anything for that matter? that would be petty.

    also prayer has been shown over and over again to not work.

    i wonder if there has been a cross religion prayer study using groups from different religions to see which get their "prayers answered more"....that would be neat, although uneventful.

  207. Chris

    I think it is very important for Epicurus to have the last word.

    (Above space reserved for Epicurus)

  208. rtm


    Well im gonna be very blunt and say, you didn't understand what I wrote. "Homosexuals" meaning the ones that prefer to have sexual relations with the same sex cannot benafit our procreation, and there genes are only passed down because they have a fear of being gay like "savedbygrace" who made a comment here much earlier claiming to that he used to be gay.
    Im gonna repeat this again, Gay people are a "natural" occurance not a "normal" one.
    Chimpanzese?You are talking about a species of animals who have clearly not evolved into human beings, so its a bad example. Natural selection remember. I dont know what your trying to prove by saying homosexuality is benaficial, but you are clearly not talking about the guys that give it to each other up the ass and would rather ejaculate their sperm into a the same sex which doesn't help, instead of the opposite sex which is compatable. And "normal" has a very basic definition, no its not mean, best, or w.e other word you used, but it is definatly what makes sence scientificly, moraly, and logically. So yeah some cultures arn't normal, and the majority of us arn't gay and there is no culture that says gay is normal. All cultures are different in some way or another, but the ones that have culture find the simialr things normal. I really believe you have no case, neither do homosexuals. They have a defect in their brain function and that is a scientific fact.

  209. BBC


    In regards to the comment about "punsihing them for eternity for not choosing .... being petty".

    Really they choose not to be with Him, they choose that outcome. Is it petty? Its free choice, what everyone wants now days is to be free to choose. If a woman wants to be with me, i have some natural rules she must follow based on who i am. 1. She must shower daily 2. She must not cheat on me 3. She must love me etc... She wont be with me, unless she can follow certain criteria. Is it petty of me? Or is it just part of my character to expect that?

  210. Chris


    Well, before I start work, I'll leave a few thoughts regarding some confusion about homosexuality and the Bible:

    1. The prohibitions and punishment regarding homosexuality in the Old Testament were written for the Jews and the state of Israel. Israel was not directed to march across the globe destroying homosexuals wherever they could be found. Israel had willingly entered into a covenant with God and was bound by the terms of that covenant. The rest of the world had not.

    2. Although the New Testament strongly teaches against homosexuality, it does not say that you are going to Hell because you are gay. Further, because you are gay does NOT automatically mean that you are going to Hell. It is just not true.

    3. Contrary to popular opinion, there are not solely two ultimate destinations revealed in the Bible -- Heaven and Hell. The end results are as follows:

    3.a. If you are a Christian who loves the Lord, and follows faithfully, and cares for the revelations that have been revealed to you, you may become an "overcomer" who will partake in the wedding feast of God. This is the topmost enjoyment given to the faithful lovers of Jesus who have given up ALL to follow Him and denied themselves-- GAY OR NOT. These Christians become the Wife of the Lamb in the New Jerusalem (not heaven!). Not many have this reward.

    3.b. If you are a Christian who is not faithful, seeks after the worldly things, and backslides, while you cannot lose your salvation, you will be disciplined while everyone else is enjoying cake with Jesus. According to the Bible, this period could last for 1,000 years -- GAY or NOT. These Christians eventually also become the Wife of the Lamb, but miss out on the wedding feast. This includes most Christians (no doubt including those who waste their time on internet forums :) ).

    3.c. If you are not a Christian, but live a good and righteous life to the best of your knowledge and abilities, then you will be judged according to that life -- GAY OR NOT and regardless whether you did not receive the gospel. Basically, you are throwing yourself to the mercy of the court but things could be much worse. These people will NOT go to Hell but will live in the kingdom age as the restored nations of man according to the Revelation of John.

    3.d. If you are a Jew, and live a righteous life according to the revelation and law given to the Jews, then you will be judged according to the law -- GAY OR NOT. These restored Jews will become priests to God in the next age.

    3.e. If you are an unbeliever, who lives an unrighteous life, rejects the gospel, lives contrary to your own knowledge of right and wrong, steals candy from babies, kicks puppies, and makes fun of Christians on the internet, you will be judged at the final court. Again, you are throwing yourself to the mercy of the court, but it is not looking good because you knew better and did it anyway.

    Being gay, like any other besetting sin only makes things harder, but it is not the cause of damnation. And finally, it would be wise to understand that God is not the God of American-Style Civil Rights. Just like you, God orders His House as He sees fit.

    The above is strictly according to what is written, not according to popular opinion or tradition. It would help if you actually read the Bible instead of relying upon hearsay.

  211. Achems Razor

    Unbelievable!! is all I can say.

    What if a person can't read or write. or is incapable of lucid thought, do they go to hell by default!

  212. Joe_nyc

    You gotta be kidding. You made all that up from Paul's "third heaven"?
    Chris, you sure do have a good imagination. ;)

  213. Joe_nyc

    LoL Razor, you beat me to it.

  214. Chris


    Let's take your inflammatory statement further, shall we? Let's say that your person incapable of of a single lucid thought is named "Achems Razor?" Would this 'hypothetical' person go to hell? The answer is ALL persons named Achems Razor go to hell by default simply because they cross me. :)

    I think if you read my post, you would see that people are judged according to their abilities and knowledge. If you know better, and purposely act contrary to what you know to be wrong, then you're toast! Your hypothetical person would be judged accordingly. But God's mercy cannot be discounted. God's justice has been slandered quite a bit. The Bible reveals that God does not desire to condemn man. In the end, the only people who will be condemned to hell will be those who insist upon it.

  215. Vlatko

    Gee @Chris, you know lot about what will happen after death. Impressive. Who the hell told you this? God?

    You say @Epicurus should read the Bible. I assure you that most of the people commenting here have read the Bible. In fact almost all of the atheists out there have read the bible and that is why they became atheists in the first place. I can not say that about Christians. Ask any random believer on the street: Have you read the Bible? The chance that he will answer "NO" is huge.

  216. Joe_nyc


    I apologize. I just couldn't help it. Your post was incredible I lost my discipline of not belittling Christians. You see, I come from a big ass Christian family and I know better not to make fun of Christians. Sowee :(

  217. Chris


    Actually, this is standard theology as taught from Fuller Theological Seminary. It's not from me.

  218. Hardy

    Oh man, I thought @Chris was over that Abrahamic-god idea. Sorry, I guess I must correct my impression: I had thought more of you :-(

  219. Chris


    Hmmmm. Your comments are unfair. My comments are very much in keeping with the subject matter of this video as regarding biblical teaching and homosexuality. Regardless of the opinions the average reader -- christian or not -- may be, the words of the bible do not change from one reader or the other. But many read into the Bible things that are not there. I am only clearing up what the Bible says, not telling people what to believe. That should be abundantly clear. In fact, that should be quite clear to any who read my posts. I have never preached on this site.

    Please note, I am NOT telling you, Epicurus, or anyone else what they should or should not believe or do. I am simply saying what the Bible clearly states in order to clear up some gross mistakes that have been posted. As a former theology student, I have some knowledge of what I speak.

    IMHO, most readers of the Bible -- christian or not -- come with preconceived ideas and the weight of their own cultural and societal perspectives.
    I think my post shows a God who is not eagerly condemning people left and right based solely upon their sexuality.

    Finally, if you were to read through the comments on many of your documentaries, you would see quite a few off-topic comments related to God and belief. Regardless of your own personal beliefs, it is on the mind of many people on this site.

  220. Chris

    @ Vlatko

    My stating that Epicurus should read the bible was clearly only reflecting that he was not speaking of it knowledgeable. It was not a directive to read the bible for salvation or to change his mind regarding God. I might say the same thing about properly quoting Lincoln or Shakespeare. Again, your comments are not fair.

  221. Chris


    I would offer that your insulting me regarding my beliefs adds nothing to the conversation and is contrary to the rules.

  222. Cornervizion

    Just a thought, And this is purely my observation. I know a lot of Christians who beleive the Bible word for word. And at many times try to convert me (And Fail). I don't see these Christians approach confident people. Always those who are Vulnerable or who they consider to be "Flawed" in some way. But Also (Again, my obsrvation) privately they tend to be quite aggresive people there's been many an occasion where a lady friend has been crying to me because their so-called kind and loving "Christian" partner got nasty to them and sometimes it can be over the most trivial thing. Looking through these negative comments towards alternate lifestyle. I wonder to myself would it be nice that rather than try to "Change" people, Just tolerate and get on with your life. After all, tolerance dosen't mean you have to like it, just accept it.

  223. Vlatko


    Sorry if you felt my comments unfair. We are just exchanging thoughts. Don't take it personally.

    Your comment implies that you've figured out (or at least the Fuller Theological Seminary figured it out) what is actually being said in the Bible regarding Homosexuality.

    Here is what Bible actually says about Homosexuals:

    "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

    There is no hell or heaven here. Kill them all - says the Bible. And since the Bible is the word of God (edited and voted by humans at the Counsel of Nikea) then it is logically to think that God wants homosexuals dead.

    The usual response is: Don't take this literally. God meant something else with this.

    So I hope you'll give better explanation.

  224. Vlatko

    And the interesting thing is that all those verses are covered up by the priests. When a priest approaches you with intention to convert you he will not say: "Listen there is a great idea in the Bible.God says we should kill all the homosexuals. Isn't that great. So join Christianity."

    Instead he would say: "We have to live our lives with love, care, tolerance. We teach that. Jesus died in order to save us. So join Christianity today and be closer to God.

    The same counts for all western Abrahamic religions.

  225. Cornervizion

    Go Vlatko! (Love the site by the way - I posted a request to donate a doc. on the Facebook page). Your work and commitment to give a censorship free, look at the world is admirable. To elaborate on my previous comment further (Just remeembered it), Is when I had a work related incident which led to myself being in shock, A friend of mine told me (via. her friend) that "I Should Turn To God", Judging by the atttitude of this lady I think not if it means that I become intolerant and dogmatic.

  226. Vlatko

    Thanks @Cornervizion.

  227. Hardy

    Sorry @Chris, it wasn't meant insultingly, merely sad. I had gotten a wrong impression on your views, that's all.

  228. Chris

    As I stated in my post, God is not the God of American-Style Civil Rights. He will order His house as He sees fit as is His right.

    Regardless of whether you believe the Bible, the Bible says that God created mankind. The Bible is clear in that God HATES homosexuality, and He is entitled to His opinion. So, will you say that God is unfair regarding His own creation? Has not the Potter power over the Clay? The verse you quote (out of context) was ONLY to the Jews who entered into an UNIQUE covenant with God to follow His Law in the land of Israel. They were bound by the terms of that Law and it means exactly what it says and nothing else. However, we are not jews living in Israel during the iron age under this covenant, and so I will not have to kill you for being gay. Relieved?

    Understand, this is what the Bible states was the case at that time within the borders of Israel at that time. Just like any country, if you don't like the laws, then live somewhere else. If I lived during that time, and did not want to live under these laws, I would move. The law had nothing to do with anything outside the borders of Israel.

    If you are saying that, objectively, you don't believe in God because you feel He is unfair to homosexuals, that is your right. But if you are trying to convince ME that God is unfair, then you are speaking subjectively. Think about it logically: IF God is real, then does He not have the DIVINE RIGHT to make whatever laws He likes?? Do you not have the right to live as you want to live within your own house?

    Understand that I have NEVER said to anyone how they should live or whether they were condemned for anything, and I never would do so. I have only stated what the Bible clearly states in black and white. If anyone does not believe it, go live your life in peace.

    The point was that there is little understanding of what the Bible as a book actually says. I have stated what it actually says without sugar coating it. The bible is misquoted and misunderstood as often than Achem's misunderstanding of Quantum Theory :)

  229. Vlatko

    Sorry @Chris but are you implying that the Bible is outdated now? If that verse was aimed only to Jews in the land of Israel then it doesn't counts today. The laws were meant for those times within the boundaries of Israel as you say.

    That means some laws are still in force and some are not. Who decides which laws are good and which are bad today. Which laws we are going to discard and which we are going to keep? I guess the church decides about that. Right?

    But, God didn't put any expiry date on his laws as I know.

  230. Chris


    Just speaking regarding what the Bible says and not telling anyone what to do or believe, so no one start climbing down my throat:

    There is a difference between the New and Old Testaments. The OT was written during the time when every man had to pay for his own evil. No one could pay for the evil of another person because all men are evil. All had their own debt to pay. In the NT, Christ paid the debt in full and therefore the law was fulfilled and justice was fully satisfied.

    In that sense, the law DID have an expiration date. Evil is still evil. You just don't have to pay the price of of it before God (while you may have to pay its price before man's law.)

  231. Vlatko


    It is OK. I know you are not trying to tell someone what to do or believe. That's why we are still talking.

    So now we are coming to the part where you state that some chunks of the OT are invalid today. You didn't answered the question: Who decides which parts are discarded and which are not? The creation parts are valid and gay, sexists, slavery, war parts are invalid... hmmmm. Who decides how the Bible will be interpreted regarding this issue. Are you aware that many Christians from various denominations will disagree with you on this. Many Christians actually will say: All of the God's laws are valid.

    After all Jesus was quoting the OT almost all the time when he wanted to make a point.

  232. Joe_nyc

    Where in the Bible does it say that God hates homosexuals?

  233. Chris


    I would have to study this question in depth before I could offer a complete answer but here is my understanding: All parts of the OT that require punishment because of sin are nullified. The OT is not invalid, just fulfilled. For example: The instructions to repair my car engine are not invalid, just fulfilled because I have completed the task. I keep the instructions for reference on other possible problems and for insight into how my car operates.

    There is no body or group on the earth that decided this. Paul so states in his writings. BTW, while the Council at Nicia did meet and make some decisions regarding what they wanted to include as inspired text, the letters of Paul never were in doubt and had circulated among the early church as authoritative.

    Regarding Biblical authority to interpret the Bible: Organized traditional religious organizations have spent much time expounding the Bible, leaving the individual believer little to do but follow church dogma -- right or wrong. I recall a former teacher of mine giving us this admonition: "If you just take my word for it, you have decided that I am your priest. And when you hear something you like better, you will change your mind and someone else will be your priest. I will not be your priest. You have to take what I show you home, study it for yourself before God. Otherwise, it will only be a teaching. Look it up for yourselves. Don't follow me. Follow the Lord."

    The NT states, "...they ALL would know Me, from the greatest to the least of them." No priests, no pastors, no intermediaries. There is no reason that the average believer cannot interpret the Bible without a priest leaning over their shoulders.

  234. Chris


    I didn't say that! I said, "God HATES homosexuality," Read Romans 1:18-32. It's not only about homosexuality but that gets thrown in there, too.

  235. Hardy


    Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. - Romans, 32.

  236. Chris


    True, but who has the authority to administer such a punishment? You? Me? The church? All the items listed in Romans Chapter 1 offend God's righteousness, holiness and person because they are not what HE is. According to the righteous Judge, these things will be judged with death because these things are out from the Nature of Death. But this is referring to the NEXT age, not this age. And it does not give anyone authority to execute such judgement upon anyone else.

    Looking at the list in Romans, it is clear that anything apart from the righteous nature of God is sin and will be judged. Homosexuality is lumped in with being disobedient to parents. They do a lot of things I don't approve of and yet, I have yet to kill my kids for that. Am I following the Bible?

  237. Chris

    I'm done.

    I have a website wireframe to submit to a client for approval before I start coding. I'll check back on Friday. Just know, I have judgement or condemnation for no one. Live, seek and follow according to the light you have been given. As much as it lies with you, be at peace with all men.

  238. Joe_nyc


    So, you believe God hates homosexuality. But where in Roman would make you think that?

    Perhaps this 1:27? "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

    I haven't study the bible in over a decade but, Chris, if my memory serves me right, wasn't this verse a part of Paul's letter describing and justifying why he was among gentiles? Nonetheless; Paul was merely making observations in his letters. How do you go from his observation to believe that God hates homosexuals?

  239. Achems Razor

    @ Chris:

    Oh! misunderstanding of Quantum Theory?? If you understand Quantum Theory, that means you do not understand Quantum Theory at all!!

    So than, are you to imply that you understand Quantum Theory??? So lets hear it!!

  240. WTC7

    Hi again Chris :-)

    I once got into a debate about religion on this site, and promised myself never to do it again. It is simply not possible to reach any common ground on the issue between those who believe in (in this case Christian) god and those who have different views (I am purposely not saying atheists, or non-believers, or anything of the kind).

    I myself have a problem in putting together the god of the OT and the one of the NT. They are supposed to be one god, are they not?

    But in my view, there is no consistency there. The god of the OT seems vindictive and really mean to me, whereas the one of the NT is presented as a good one, even put his only son to death for us (whatever that is supposed to mean for us).

    The omnipotent god makes his creation and makes it flaw. Why? He loves the man so much and tests him with Lucifer's tricks. Why?

    You say: "So, will you say that God is unfair regarding His own creation? Has not the Potter power over the Clay?"

    I am sorry, but the clay is what the potter makes it to be. The potter is the boss. If he makes an ugly piece of work with the clay that's his own problem - he didn't have enough skill to make it better. If we are the creation of an omnipotent god, than we should be perfect and there would be no need for him to test us. On the other hand, if he is putting us to test, then he should know the outcome even before we were created - he is supposed to be the one who put it all (good and bad) into motion in the first place.

    I simply don't understand and can't accept all this testing thing. God either loves us, or he just made an experiment and is playing with us. But he sacrificed his son for us. Why did he have to do that and at the same time put the devil to test us? The whole message is too confusing.

  241. Epicurus

    it all sounds like a kid who is making up a comic book character and just keeps adding super powers on as the story progresses so nothing can defeat him.

    could you back up each thing you said about where each person goes after death with a reference?

    you said it is all whats in the book...please back it up with quotes.

    because i personally remember this one, Hebrews 11:6, "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

    the only time it says anything about someone who doesnt believe in god going to heaven is on the day of judgement. and im pretty sure IF there were a day of judgement you wouldnt have people still claiming atheism.

    please verify your claims....

    also question....if you get a degree from one of those christian school....does it apply?? or is it just a play degree?

  242. HaTe_MaChInE

    Oh my god.. I cant believe it took me so long to get involved in this one.

    Definition of morals

    1. conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
    2. moral quality or character.
    3. virtue in sexual matters; chastity.
    4. a doctrine or system of morals.
    5. moral instruction; a moral lesson, precept, discourse, or utterance.

    As an American speaking (typing) English (usually poorly), I submit the above as the definition of morals. The word has no reference to exactly what culture we pull the doctrine or system. So if an act is acceptable in ANY culture than it is by definition moral.

    I developed a sense of what is moral from backwater, small town, poor, interpretations of a book I never read until I already decided it was wrong. The Litness test of my morality is simple. Does it harm my family, friends, neighbors and/or my country(gonna add the world in there as soon as I sell my 13mpg truck).

    To quantify this: harm is rated on a logarithmically shifting scale with weight given to each field of family, friends, etc based on current positive or negative debt levels inversely affected by time, distance and median depression levels.

    So as an example

    Stranger punching a kitten.

    Using the equation for Morals
    ( H(m)*F(w) ) ^ (Debt - 1/Depression) - Time = Moral

    We find that the act creates e^.0867 Morals

    Obviously not good.

    You can see how this same example would be effected if we replace the kitten with my deadbeat cousin that owes me alot of money.

    As for religion...


    11:10 All that don't have fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of all the living creatures that are in the waters, they are an abomination to you,

    11:11 and you detest them. You shall not eat of their flesh, and you shall detest their carcasses.

    So I hope the souls of all you shellfish eaters out there rot in the retched awful of satins caustic bile. Shellfish eaters are a walking abomination and they should have their eyes savagely raped from there heads as a mark of their betrayal of GODS LAWS. I pray to god that the flesh of their loins rot and bare no fruit only maggots. I pray that there afterlife in hell is 20 fold the punishment the will receive in this world.

    and dont even get me started on those Babylon whores that wear wool AND linen.

    19:19 Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee.

    Here is where the christians start making excuses...

    Actually i just said that to get the fear of god in you... I do actually forgive you and pray for your soul. I wouldnt be a good christian if I judged you.

    @Achems Razor - You try to turn a beautiful thing like science into a religion. You preach from books no one has read to try to sell your spin of things that most people wont understand. You use talking points from zealots and quote the obscure. Your comments are like playing Scattergories with a Fleischmann and Pons paper. Theoretical physics is about math, not about quoting other theoretical physicist. Classical physics is about experiment and observation. If you cant do the math, perform the experiment or document the observation you role in physics is that of a spectator. You will forever Monday morning quarterback the work of others.

    Just kidding... I love you Achems

  243. oshonaire

    @ WTC7, so many people want to figure out everything before they submit to God.....yet Jesus speaks of the holy spirit who is to reveal all things to us...if we want to know! ( the holy spirit is Gods gift to those who are ALREADY believers) no wonder a lot of folks stay confused.

    however in answer to your post, it would seem that the comfort of human beings has never been the TOPMOST priority of God...God seems to be most interested in vividly demonstrating or displaying a whole lot of things to his creatures.....usually attributes of himself and at times of his creatures...e.g he would often allow suffering in order to demonstrate his capacity to deliver the one who suffers and the overthrow the oppressor....he permitted Job to experience unimaginable suffering in order to prove Job's loyalty even under adversity. Jesus once encountered a man born blind and says " he was born like this .."so the power of God might be demonstrated in him" God could have made that man perfect if his comfort was his priority.

    he even applies his rule to himself ...he comes into the world as a human being and underwent great pain just to prove himself a quintessence of deliverance and love. this was something he DID NOT have to do! but he chose that path because he decided it would bring HIM greater glory.

    i believe that if God had wanted a perfect world he could have made it so...but then that would have made it impossible for him to demonstrate a whole array of qualities which require a background of evil to be well highlighted. did God create evil...he must have! did he know Adam and eve would sin...definitely! would there be forgiveness, mercy and salvation if there was no fall or sin or offences? how then is God different from the devil? probably in that he uses evil to accomplish other higher ends of his and not as an end in itself and in that he does not regale in it and he intends to destroy it once it has served its purpose...sorry HIS purpose. as for tests...its benefit is for us and not God..God tests us to show US and OTHERS, our strengths and weaknesses, he knows already!

    some may think this is selfish, but then,God who created all things did so to carry out his own ends, a right that every creator has over that which is created.

    The God of the old testament is the God of the new..Gods motive in introducing all those stringent laws was to prove to man, through the sample nation, Israel.. 1) Mans inherent shortcomings and 2)mans need for clearly outlining laws with the severest penalties, God is saying "even if u knew what i wanted and u knew u would suffer if u do not obey..u still CAN NOT obey".the new testament is God saying to those who have learnt the lesson...alright, u've gotten the more need for all those rules..u guys who have realised ur need can now come to Jesus and receive forgiveness and strength to live right...only 2 commands believe in Jesus and to live a life of love.

  244. oshonaire

    @ Hate_machine
    ha apt name indeed! i don't have any thing to say to you though....other than praise ur skills at sarcasm...a little tip though, you might want to cut down on the venom ...its literarily dripping!....sarcasm is more cutting when not mixed with so much passion. cheers!

  245. Jazz

    There are 2 sides to every story here on earth. There is only one side to the story in the Kingdom of heaven -- Gods side. He made everything -- yes and that includes us. Because he is a fair, loving and just God he has given us free will to make our own decisions. If he says something is not right and we say it is -- he will not force his will upon us. One day we will all have to answer to God for the decisions we made in this life -- no matter how much we want wrong to be right -- wrong will always be wrong. God loves all sinners (yes that includes gay people) -- he hates the sin. JC ;)

  246. Achems Razor

    Actually I like you to, @ Hate_MaChinE.

    Almost as much as I like Hemorrhoids!!

    Just kidding!!... :D

  247. Chris

    Some of you ask legitimate questions, which deserve legitimate and supported answers. Some are only playing devils advocate. After discussing this with V, I'm moving my portion of this thread to the forums. You can ask your questions there if you have serious legitimate questions or criticisms of the Bible. I'll post the location as soon as I have it.

    What I will do: Answer questions or observations objectively regarding what the bible says without religious traditional teaching or affiliation. I'll post sources and scriptural references when possible. Then you can look it up yourself.

    What I will not do: Preach to you, attempt to convert you, or argue with you. If after reading my response and you do not like it, go in peace.

    @Joe_nyc: You asked legitimate questions that deserve well-considered and supported answers. I'll do my best to post my answers on the forums.

    @Epicurus: In reply to your last post, I abandoned my formal religious studies because I disagreed with the clergy/laity system as well as the hypocrisy of formalized religion. I continued my under-graduate and graduate studies at a secular university. On another note: You seem to delight in playing devils advocate, as you counter ANY answer I give regardless. By this, I can tell that your questions are only barbs, and It makes little sense to continue any level of discussion with you. No one disputes your right to live your life as you please. Respectfully, I ask you to not follow me or my discussion threads, as I will avoid yours.

  248. Chris


    Ha, ha. That was a great post, even though I'm on the other side of the religious fence. Gotta appreciate talent! I'd love to know your source for the logarithmically shifting scale of morality. :)

  249. Epicurus

    @chris. honestly am not just playing devil's advocate. i think most of what you say is nonsense and i like to call out nonsense when i see it.

    i find it odd you always want to back out of the conversations after i bring up points that you dont want to address like the hebrews quote and asking you to verify what you were saying about the after life with passages from scripture.

    but yeaaa. it might be wise to just ignore me, i would hate to cause any existential angst.

  250. Achems Razor

    @ Epicurus:

    I looked at all your posts, nowhere did it seem that you were playing devils advocate.

    All of us had under control remarks, so me-thinks it is a cop-out! on his regard. Probably everyone will agree on that.

  251. Lola

    @savedbygrace and @Morgan

    two of the saddest people I have ever seen. You can go on and on and blab about blaa blaa blaa 'normal', but all of us here know that night you go to bed with holes in your lives and wonder why. Using your mind is a good thing, you should try using the ones God gave you some time. I believe in God, but not the God you believe in. My God is accepting of all people, and does not use intimidation and fear. Who are you to dictate other people's lives? being a good person is all that matters, and having love in your life is all that matters; no matter who you find it with. People with your mindsets frighten me because they do not even see how blind they are.

    p.s. @ savedbygrace, say all you want about your happy marriage, but you know there is a great possibility you would have been happier with a man.

    too bad you are a coward; it's so 'easy' to conform isn't it?

  252. oshonaire

    @ savedbygrace

    you are neither sad nor a coward nor will u be happier with a man...maybe rather overemotional though!had to read carefully through your post. i believe in God and God does detest homosexuality..for saying that you owe nobody any apologies..u trully have no right to dictate other peoples lives but u have a right to speak the dictates of the one who has that right...God does accept all people but not all their actions and while love is what matters, the bible defines love essentially as following Gods instructions....unfortunately many who claim to know God resist any attempt to point out their wrong doings and be disciplined. what father would not correct his child ?that is not love but indulgence
    having said that, ur thots about homosexuality were true for u but are personal..many homosexuals have no problems at all with their habit...and u might want to temper the language...hate breeds hate but love wins, am happy u have found peace at last man, thankful for the homosexual..God accepts u the way u are but would have u change!

  253. BBC


    "now BBC if you knew that the person would suffer if they didnt choose you, and you knew they didnt know if you existed or not how could you ask them to make that decision….it is just absurd that you would justify something so immoral."

    At some point in every person's life, God makes Himself known. For me it took 30 years. Other might take longer, and there are some who encounter Him much younger. My friend you will have a God-incident in your lifetime, you may already have had one. When that day comes, you will realize what i mean by choice. It will be as clear as Neo's decision on the red or blue pill (Matrix).


    In Matthew 7, Jesus says, that the Law is in effect until heaven and earth pass away.


    "But in my view, there is no consistency there. The god of the OT seems vindictive and really mean to me, whereas the one of the NT is presented as a good one, even put his only son to death for us (whatever that is supposed to mean for us)."

    The God in the OT is a very patient and loving God. You are right when you say shouldn't the God of the OT be the same as the NT. He is! He is slow to anger and rich in love and compassion. He wants all men to turn from their wickedness and be saved. Paul actually says that He left the sins in the OT unpunished. Now that Christ has come, the sins of man can be punished, and will be at the end of the age.

  254. savedbygrace

    I haven't read the comments for a while, nor have I read all of them now, but I have some thoughts from a first hand basis.

    Chris: You said: "There is a difference between the New and Old Testaments. The OT was written during the time when every man had to pay for his own evil. No one could pay for the evil of another person because all men are evil. All had their own debt to pay. In the NT, Christ paid the debt in full and therefore the law was fulfilled and justice was fully satisfied.

    In that sense, the law DID have an expiration date. Evil is still evil. You just don’t have to pay the price of of it before God (while you may have to pay its price before man’s law.)"

    You are right and you said that very vell. One added thought, however. Now "mercy" is a greater option. Christ paid for it all, so "pardon" is more easily obtainable for sins that would have "death penalty" sins in the Old Testament, as I can say I am one that fits that description. He paid my death penalty, so I can receive mercy. In the Old Testament, that option was yet available.

    Sin is still sin. If you don't receive Jesus' offer of payment, then after you die, it will still be required of you.

  255. savedbygrace

    Does Bible say God hate homosexuals? Well, God hates gossip and murder and all other forms of sin too. So, you could say that God hates all of us in that case! So, God does not hate homosexuals. Forbidding an action in the Bible does not mean hating the person's soul, but just the sin.

    The reason for the death penalty in the Old Testament was to prevent corruption from spreading in the general population. Sin brings consequences. Always. Some sins required the death penalty at that time for social order so the whole nation wouldn't be lost, and therefore rejected by God for sin too.

    I know. It's hard to think of a God of love and a God of punishment for sin, but sometimes truth is just to be accepted as is, with mystery sometimes.

  256. savedbygrace

    Oshonaire: I found and read your post. We were posting at the same time, ironically. Thanks.

  257. Epicurus

    @BBC that is complete hogwash. not everyone in their life "finds god". many many people live and die without any belief in god. so your argument is false and you need to try again.

    so once again. my question still stands.

    if you knew that the person would suffer if they didnt choose you, and you knew they didnt know if you existed or not how could you ask them to make that decision…

    knowing that god doesnt reveal himself to everyone how can this be justified as moral?

  258. BBC


    "not everyone in their life “finds god”"

    I never said everyone "finds god". I said God eventually makes Himself known to everyone.

    Most people just choose to ignore it.

    "many people live and die without any belief in god."

    Most live like they are god. They worship themselves (especially in consuming nations). Though being gods they can not save themselves.

    "knowing that god doesnt reveal himself to everyone how can this be justified as moral?"

    On the contrary God does reveal Himself to everyone. Look at nature, and the universe. These things show us there is something greater then ourselves. Just the size of the stars alone, reveals to us that we are tiny and insignificant. Deep inside everyman whether they choose to admit it or not, they know there is something greater then they. Some know it, and kick and scream and fight against the thought. They say they do not believe. If man was created in God's image then they all should have the VMAT2 gene.

    Plus there are many people who preach about God, especially on here. Therefore, God is just, and Jesus can make the dirtiest Hog clean.

  259. Charles B.

    Epicurus: I just happened to notice your last question which you must have asked before on this thread without an answer (I don't have much time nowadays for comment reading):

    "If you knew that the person would suffer if they didnt choose you, and you knew they didn't know if you existed or not how could you ask them to make that decision…

    knowing that god doesnt reveal himself to everyone how can this be justified as moral?"

    Excellent question! I've thought about this before, "What happens to those that have never heard for Christ before?" and the answer is, "I don't know for sure."

    However, I have an educated guess based on my understanding of God's perceived nature. God's actions is the definition of "moral" in my understanding. We can attribute any meaning to the words "moral", "omnipotent", and "omnicient", etc as we wish, to the degree that no one, not even God can meet the word play fully. Can God make a rock too big to lift? Yes or no, He's limited by this word play.

    This I know, those of us who have had oportunity to "accept" Christ, but reject the offer for whatever reason, are accountable for that rejection of God with our eyes wide open. That incorporates huge portion of us in the Western world, espeically. Those that do not hear for lack of oportunity (truly), are in the hands of God alone. In such cases, we just have to trust that God will be completely "moral" in His actions. I do not have all the answers, but I trust His character intrinsically and completely.

    To make it simple: I have faith that no one ever gets a raw deal from God, trust Him.

  260. Charles B.

    BBC: What is a "VMAT2 gene"?

  261. pipo

    Charles B, your a delusional - you bible thumping loonie. Karl Marx was right saying that religion is an opium for the people. You might aswell smoke opium, its more real than those stories you claim to be true.

  262. Eric Howe


    Seneca said it better (and several centuries earlier):

    Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. --Lucius Annaeus Seneca (4 BC – AD 65)

  263. Epicurus


    okay NO god doesnt eventually make himself known to everyone. you are just making this claim without ANY evidence. i can just as easily say zeus makes himself known to everyone just some choose to ignore him. it is silly that you think i would fall for that.

    nature and the universe does not show us there is a god in any way. what you are doing here is making an argument from incredulity. sorry but you are wrong. you are just making baseless claims that IF they were true all people would believe in god and have the same experiences of him rather than MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of different versions of a god.

    all god is, is our explanation for whatever we cant explain at any given time.

    both you and charles just flat out said..."oh no everyone DOES have god show himself to them, they just ignore" PROVE IT. VERIFY YOUR CLAIMS.

    its like talking with children. i dont understand how religious people can even keep a job they are so illogical.

  264. Achems Razor

    @ Charles B:

    Howdy Charles, You keep saying trust God, And I will keep saying, how can anybody trust man made Gods? And which one? out of the 28,000,000 man made Gods should we trust, that mankind have made up so far!

    Yes, "Seneca" said it better! @ Eric Howe:

  265. Achems Razor

    The VMAT2 gene is the God gene, it forms the illusion in the Brain that there is a God, Gods.
    That is funny!!

  266. Charles B.

    I feel sorry for you guys. It's like talking to children. There is a whole side to life that you all seem to totally ignore: the spiritual. I've met people totaly healed of cancer (doctor verified as miraculous), met people who have seen and talke with angels, met people who have died and come back to life after meeting Jesus, known a friend personally who nearly died during out-of-body experiences where he was attacked by demons (he could transport and see what others were doing often before that time), and experienced supernatural aspects of my life also. How can you guys ignore the supernatural and the spiritual entirely?

    Pipo: To say that I'm dillusional is just plain ignorance, barely worth the 30 seconds to reply.

    Eric Howe: There is no greater wisdom than acknowledging God and honoring him. Pithy little quotes from degenerate hearts does not lessen the fact that to fear God is the beginning of wisdom, and only a fool says in his heart that there is no God. You have my pity.

    Mr. Razor: Trust in the one true God. I had a friend that worked in a bank. Her first day of work, they made her count money all day. Old money, new money torn money and everything inbetween. The one common denominator, it was all REAL money. They didn't let her see or touch a fake, and then they told her, anything you come across later on that sparks a doubt is probably because it's not real.

    There are so many "fakes" and man-made "gods" because there is a REAL one to copy and a REAL one to bemoan, besmerge, and belittle. As intelligent as you are, it's a cheap cop out to say that just because there are a lot of fakes, that proves that all are fakes. If you want to truly find God, you will, but the qualification is that you "Shall find Me when you seek for me with your whole heart." You, sir are not a seeker of the heart of God, so I'm not surprised that neither are you a finder of divine nature and grace of God.

    But, I respect your opinions a great deal. I just wish you were on our side. Grace! :-)

  267. Jazz

    It's not about Religion -- it's about relationship. Go straight (no pun intended) to the source and I promise you all of questions will be answered. But – I highly doubt that this is an option for many – mainly because who would want a relationship with someone that tells it as it is.

  268. Eric Howe

    @Charles B.

    Pithy quotes from degenerate minds? And yet you keep waving the musings of bronze age barbarians in our faces. Do you really not see how ridiculous and arrogant that is? I'd hardly call Seneca the Younger a degenerate mind.

    And an arrogant man's pity is worth nothing at all, please keep it to yourself.

  269. Epicurus

    Charles, i have met atheists who have had cancer go into remission, and some that completely dissapper and medical scientists have reasons for god. people wouldnt see angels if they didnt already have the idea of an angel. you wouldnt hear about an inuit seeing an angel or an african bushman. someones delusion is not proof of anything. we have scientific explanations for near death experiences and can actually induce them in people. there is a scientist at a university here in canada who has made a machine which will create near death experiences in people who are awake.

    how can you just claim that all these things are supernatural when what they really are, are things you cant explain or (and i dont know how to say this without being rude) are too stupid to understand the science behind.

    when people are too dull to understand the physics of things they feel the world needs magical explanations. thats a shame.

  270. BBC


    "sorry but you are wrong. you are just making baseless claims that IF they were true all people would believe in god and have the same experiences of him rather than MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of different versions of a god."

    My claim is based on my experience. Which i have shared on here before. My facts are a changed life, from the inside out. I have other experiences also, but based on what you said to Charles; it is unnecessary for me to list.

    "how can you just claim that all these things are supernatural when what they really are, are things you cant explain or (and i dont know how to say this without being rude) are too stupid to understand the science behind."

    In Exodus, God sends Moses to do signs and wonders, all of which are duplicated by the Pharaoh's magicians. Because they were duplicated Pharaoh was hardened against God. He assumed that his gods (man made) were the same as the Mighty God. He was mistaken, and the Angel of the Lord passed over the houses, and well you all know the rest. If i recall, i do not think they could copy the third plague of gnats. They (Pharaoh's magicians) claimed it to be the work of a "powerful God".

    "it is silly that you think i would fall for that."

    I do not want you to fall for anything. My prayer for you is that God will make Himself known to you and many others on this site. And that you would see yourselves as crazy as i see myself: CRAZY (delusional even). "Christ crucified is a stumbling block to the Jews, and foolishness to the Gentiles." God is very good Epic and He does love you. And He gave up His Son on the Cross for you. So that you may know that you are loved. When have gods ever given up something for the people who bow down to them? Only one God has done that. The Christian God is unlike any other.

    I was a skeptic, now i am a believer. If it could happen to me, it could happen to anyone. No one persuaded me, but my experience influenced my belief.

    Have a good long weekend. I can not wait to sleep in tomorrow.


  271. Cornervizion

    @ Charles B.

    Was the quack who described and/or witnessed the "Miraculous" Cancer cures, "Doctor" Gary Null by any chance?

  272. Charles B.

    Ok. Just a quick note before we color our Easter eggs (no time tomorrow) as tomorrow is my favorite day of the year: Resurrection Sunday (A.K.A. Easter): HERE ARE MY ANGEL STORIES. :-)

    My adopted grandmother was one of the people who met angels. She broke down in her car (in a dark lightless tunnel of all places,) and was extremely scared of being hit by another car (it was an out of the way tunnel obviously). She said, and I quote: "Oh, God, if we only had some flairs, people could see our car in time!"

    At that moment, a "man" with a full box of . . . . you guessed it! Flairs! Came walking through the dark long tunnel (on foot with no car) and helped her set them up and and even light them. She then turned to thank him and he had vanished. Grandma don't tell lies, so I believe her.

    My friend, Pat was about to be raped (long story) and a man apeared and said, "Pat (yes, he used her first name), you're about to be raped. Come with me." He was very calm. When they were safe, he vanished also. Pat wasn't a Christian at that time, either.

    My sister was nearly killed in a car crash, but she avoided it when an angel spoke to her specific instructions to pull to the opposite side of the road (into on-comming traffic) or she would be hit by a speeding car comming towards her,(she was trying to merge and the car she was passing kept speeding up to keep her from it). Seconds before she was hit, she avoided it by following the voice's instructions immediately.

    Note: We always her our own voices when we think to ourselves. A calm audible MALE voice giving unexpected instuctions is an angel (or God).

    Lastly, and my favorite: My friend Donna Mae D. had a daughter that was dying of an incurable illness (40 years ago), and she was terribly discouraged. Faithful as she was to church, she had heard nothing from God in her heart. She was getting ready for church and she had no clean nylons. She collapsed to the floor, and cried in dispair: "God! Don't you care?!? I don't even have clean nylons for church!" Immediately, Jesus answered her (in an audible calm male voice from the top of the room) "If you pull out the bottom drawer, you'll find a pair of nylons that have fallen behind the drawers." She said "Oh thank you, Lord!" and sure enough they were there! She later realized that if God cared about lost nylons, He cared about her sick daughter also.

    Note: Her daughter was later healed and is still living to this day, more than 40 years past when they said she would die.

  273. Charles B.

    cornorvizion: No. I've never heard of that doctor before. I knew the lady who was healed of cancer, not the doctor. Actually, I've known 3 women healded of cancer, but Estelle's was quite miraculous. Her doctor was cussing and cursing as he couldn't find the tumor and so she was even too embarrassed for him to tell him she was healed by God in church. My mom also had a vision of God healing her of cancer (which had spread), and her oncologist said she too is free of cancer as far as they could retest (in the bones, liver, lymps, etc.), but she had a masectomy first, so I didn't use her as the main example.

    Epicurus: I just have to trust that when people pray to God for healing, and they are healed, that the healing is FROM God. Other sources of healing could take place, such as from a demonic source, theoretically, but that shouldn't negate the genuine divine healings from God that are becoming more and more common every day.

    Also, a machine that can duplicate a "spiritual" near death experience may just be tapping into the machinery that God has placed in our minds and brains to speak to us about spiritual things. The more we learn about ourselves, it's not surprising to uncover the mechanisms of the "spiritual" nature of mankind. I would be more than thrilled if someday we could even scientifically prove the existence of the human soul. Science would then only be a few thousand years behind the Christians (and others) that have been standing on that mountain of truth for a very long long time indeed.

    BBC: You're sharp! I had totally forgotten about the Egyptians douplicating so many of Moses' "proofs" of God's favor. Thanks for catching the slack. :-)

  274. charlesovery

    The Bible is two different religions. The Old Testament is the old Judiasm religion while the New Testament is nothing more than what people have labeled, for themselves, "christianity". The Taroh is the actual real book of the Judiasm religion and is suppose to be the same as the Old Testament you find in the bible. However, there are differences and they are major differences. "Christianity" was formed from Judiasmand this is why those differences are so important. What shocks me about this is how little suppose of "christians" know about the true history of this and why this is important.

    Charles B: Thanks for dropping out of our discussion that you agreed to have with me in the forum. Just shows your nature there. If you are such a genuine "christian" why are you coloring Easter Eggs?

  275. SimontheSorceror

    Hmmm... seems reason has escaped this conversation. Those of you out there who try to convince this semi schizophrenic people reason= reason, faith= faith there is no bridging between these two for they are two different things and that's, what you are trying to do. It is doomed to failure. Luckily reason won the day a long time ago, only America is slow to change. Don't like it, Europe welcomes you :)

  276. Charles B.

    Mr. Charles Overy: I can't tell by your post if you are sincere or sarcastic about the forum discussion and thanking me for pulling out. Please clarify. What nature does it show of me? I will give you my reasons if you wish.

    You're a prefessional researcher of religious philiosophy (or something like that), yet you're not even a thinly vailed Christian-hater. It would take massive amounts of my time, to argue with you on an accademic level; time which I do not really have and I have limited resources (except by internet) and I am quite convinced that you would try to run roughshod over the argument using esoteric materials that may or may not (most likely not) have a status worthy of comparison to the holy Word of God. If you do not believe in God, then you do not believe any text is inspired. Therefore you believe all text are at best mythic and thus all are of equal value. The Psudopigraphal writings, the Apographal writings, and any other work that you fell conveys some point against the accepted Biblical texts are all of equal value in your opinion. Perhaps the Bible is of even less value.

    I went through 4 years of Bible college, and graduated with a minor in Biblical language, so I do know some about the old texts. But, contrary to you, I know there is a God and I trust He has tried to make Himself know to mankind, and that is the texts we know as the Bible. If you wish, I will try, but I've already given my slant on the four Gospels.

    Yeah, yeah, I know Easter Eggs are of Pagan origin. But I enjoy it and my Easter honors Jesus Christ. God looks at the heart and my heart fully belongs to Him. I love coloring Easter Eggs!

  277. Achems Razor

    Angels?? Charles B: Healing??

    Tell that to a little 4 year old boys family.
    This happened when you where on holidays.

    A family was sitting in a big church in Decauter Georgia. Jan. I believe, when a bullet came crashing through the roof of the church from as far as three miles away.

    Striking the boy in the head and killing him!!

    Angels? Healing? Bullsh*t!!

  278. Eric Howe

    @BBC, @Charles B.

    There is no evidence that anything in Exodus actually happened, there is just the story in the Old Testament and that's it: no archeological evidence, nothing mentioned in any other contemporary chronicles, nothing. You'd think an event as important and spectacular as that would have been noted but maybe your god covered it all up as a test of faith.

    Exodus is just a story. The creation myths (both of them) in the OT are just stories. Noah is just a story. Job is just a story. The physical and historical record indicates that these are just tales in the "my dad is bigger than your dad" genre that were used to pump up the ego of an insignificant and isolated bronze age tribe at the eastern edge of the Mediterranean.

    Produce real evidence -- even evidence that would hold up in a court let alone a scientific paper -- and we will give credence to your story book. Until then, you'll have to do better. Or I could just start citing The Silmarillion to support whatever argument I care to make.

  279. BBC


    The Bible has been and always will be the most scrutinized Book in the world. It has been circulated for thousands of years. The writings of Aristotle, Homer, and Plato are never questioned like the Bible. They are taken for what they are. The Bible is not taken for what it is.

    According to you, we should just get rid of all recorded history and say it never happened. Maybe Darwin's books are just stories, i for one was not there to see him do his research. Were you?

  280. charlesovery

    Charles B- I am not a "christian hater"! I hate organized religion! I do not hate "christians" for being "christians".

    I was sincere. I made that forum topic so that we all could have a discussion about religion...not an arguement....not a debate. Just a discussion. You have the right to choose whatever, but when you agree to something and then bail it appears that I wasted my time. So I will clarify my intentions for you and I don't need your excuses.

    I have my beliefs and you have yours and to me that is fine. I believe in to each his own so I am not one to argue beliefs. I just wanted you to know what my beliefs are to hopefully make you feel more comfortable.

  281. Eric Howe


    I am taking the bible for what it is: a bunch of bronze age myths that don't agree with the archeological or even other myths in the same book. BTW, the writings of Aristotle, Homer, and Plato have been questioned, analyzed, and torn apart for centuries (Christians in the Dark Ages were big fans of Aristotle after all); the parts that make sense have been added to the compendium of human knowledge, the rest has been moved to the creative writing shelves where it belongs.

    No, I'm not nearly old enough to have know Darwin but I don't have to be. I can reproduce his results and check them against reality, that's called science and it actually works. We can even correct our mistakes and misinterpretations in the light of new evidence, religion is left trying to justify its claims with ever more absurd tales.

    What does recorded history have to do with the bible? Other than pushing it to the creative writing shelf with the other mythologies that is.

    Sorry but you're not making a lot of sense and you're probably willfully misconstruing what I'm saying.

  282. BBC


    All written documents have an intended audience.

    "Sorry but you’re not making a lot of sense and you’re probably willfully misconstruing what I’m saying."

    People do this with many written documents. But we do not discredit the writings, based on people misconstruing the writings.

  283. allisson

    to spill your seed outside the womans vagina was punishable by death. same as male on male love. why? not because of sin, but actually population growth.

  284. Charles B.

    Charles Overy: Ok. If I misjudged your character or your intentions, you have my appologies. I figured our "base" for a discussion would be so different, not much would be accomplished, (I feel a little guilty diverting my attentions to a forum where my insights seem so unappreciated), but if you have some sincere topics, or specific texts from the Bible that I could also study, I will try. I'm quite uninformed about anything outside of my own religion of Christianity, however.


  285. Charles B.

    Mr. Razor: I had an insight this morning right when I was waking up on this lovely Easter morning (like I often do). That gene you mentioned that can make us imagine God/s as you said is what the Bible calls "the measure of faith" that God has given every man. I can't find that post, so I can't remember the name of the gene. Sorry.

    It was a very clear answer: "It's the seed of faith placed in your hearts."

    I wonder if people with weak levels of faith (A.K.A. atheists) just need a little "gene therapy" to open up that part of their being. ;-) I suspect that's too simple a possibility as that would remove the moral aspect to our choices if we merely had a defective "faith gene." :-)

    Peace, and Happy Easter!

    Charles B.

  286. Epicurus

    lol it is no use trying to show you people that you are insane. if you actually believe all those people that told you those things happened to them you are more gullible than i thought.

    god seems to have enough time and energy to help all those people you know and i bet those people went on to do absolutely nothing with there lives. when everyday 4000 children die from starvation...and do you know what its like to die from starvation? how many children are being raped as i type this? and your god has time to save your friends? where i do, im never presented with beliefs like these. and to hear them come from adults actually blows me away and just makes me shake my head in absolute disgust.

    its just a relief to see the stats showing that north americans are smartening up and getting rid of religion.

    Carl Sagan - "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

    Stephen Roberts - "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"

    Friedrich Nietzsche - "Which is it, is man one of God's blunders or is God one of man's?"

  287. Epicurus

    @Charles B. no the gene is called the VMAT2 gene and in no way is it related to GOD or christianity exclusively. When the gene contains a high allele frequency the person will be more likely to accept superstitious beliefs of all kinds. if that person happens to live in india though they will probably be a hindu, sometimes that person will still be an atheist but will believe that for example walking under a ladder would give them bad luck.

    and to prove that the gene is not some magical things from god. when the allele frequency is TOO HIGH, the person becomes manic and obsessive compulsive and suffers from OCD.

    you have to realize that you HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKIG ABOUT. and stop trying to just make up answers. it is absolutely stupid, and shows a complete lack of intellectual honesty and any respect for knowledge.

  288. charlesovery

    Charles B:" You stated this: It would take massive amounts of my time, to argue with you on an accademic level; time which I do not really have and I have limited resources (except by internet) and I am quite convinced that you would try to run roughshod over the argument using esoteric materials that may or may not (most likely not) have a status worthy of comparison to the holy Word of God. If you do not believe in God, then you do not believe any text is inspired. Therefore you believe all text are at best mythic and thus all are of equal value. The Psudopigraphal writings, the Apographal writings, and any other work that you fell conveys some point against the accepted Biblical texts are all of equal value in your opinion. Perhaps the Bible is of even less value.

    I will only use the bible itself and actual historical information. As for the esoteric information you speak of...well there is always different sides to history, however I do not need to use those if you deem them so speculative. The Bible tells the tales itself so I can just use them from there on out.

  289. Charles B.


    I would dearly love to have a one minute conversation with Carl Sagan, Stephen Roberts, and Friedrich Nietzsche today just to see if they are of the same opinion now.

    One answer to your question of the evil in this world--(rape, starvation, sickness, crime, etc.)--and obviously you believe God is responsible for not stopping it--if there was one is this: How many people have your personal actions brought grief and sorrow to? Only you and God know. Sin brings death; personal, communial, national, and yes, even planet-wide. Innocense always suffers along with the guilty at this present time. The perfect earth was cursed with Adam's sin, and innocent animals had to die so that he could be clothed by God Himself after the fall.

    Until the end of this age of unrestrained sin and it's terrible consequences, then innocense and the innocent ones will still suffer, on the individual, the communal, the national, and on the planet-wide scale. You and I are to blame, my friend, not God. He remains our only hope, not our scapegoat.

    And yes, I do believe God has time to save my friends, (assume you are referring to the angel stories). You too, someday, perhaps!

    This world will not always be so corrupt and "death-filled". Remember, in the Bible, the beggar Lazareth who died of starvation with dogs licking is sores made Heaven. Appearently "forsaken" on earth, it was proved that he was not forgotten by the almighty God. When you don't understand the "Why" then trust His character and have a little faith that no one will get a raw deal in Heaven, even if they got a "raw deal" on earth.


  290. Epicurus

    so your explanation is adam and eve and the story of the fall of man?

    okay now listen very very carefully.

    there was never an adam and eve there was no talking snake and no one ate from any magic tree.

    so since that never happened you cant use it as an excuse. so try again

    now think about this. if man was ignorant before eating from the tree of knowledge (which never happened) then he cant be blamed when he eats from it because he is ignorant and lacks knowledge. he cant be blamed anymore than an infant can be blamed for grabbing something hot even if you tell them not to.
    now if you as a parent knew your child would grab the thing and it would cause the type of problem that the fall cause i dont think any loving caring being would allow it to go down.

    you are making up excuses that dont make sense and using scenarios that are myth. i might as well use the story of troy for evidence....

    i cant believe that you actually typed that out, read it, then thought that was an accurate representation of reality. its just mind blowing how gullible you guys are.

  291. Achems Razor

    There was supposed to be more that one Eve however, depends which Bible you read.
    The first Eve was to independent, wouldn't acquiesce to Adam, would not bend over, so to speak.
    So he got another one, more subservient, but than Christianity has been blaming Eve for the fall of man ever-since.

    So many different versions to this, it is mind boggling!

  292. Epicurus

    yes the woman you are talking about is named Lilith. it is also odd that how after Cain gets cast out after killing Abel, he seems to find other people on the earth and mates with them. where these people came from is a mystery.

    this is the problem when people believe in pure fables. they try to justify inconsistencies and end up looking not only stupid but slightly crazy.

    once again, when they realize why they dont believe in other gods they will start to realize why we dont believe in theirs.

  293. Charles B.

    Actually, boys (I assume Epicurus is a man), BIBLICALLY speaking, ADAM is the one to whom the original sin is accounted to. I'm not sure how far away Adam was from Eve when she was being "tempted" and he knew also what was happening when she offered him the fruit. In the Book of Romans, Adam, not Eve is called the "first man" through whom sin entered the world. The fault falls squarely on his shoulders. He should have been protecting and loving Eve, and he was neglectful at very least in this instance, and a full permissive participant more likely. Anyway, it's academic to point out that fine point with two atheists that don't believe in any part of the story. I just like to be accurate.

    Yes, Epic: I believe it all totally and fully. And yes, that's the reason for evil in this world at the present time. Adam's sin, my sin, and your sin. It really is that simple. My son pulled a hot pot of boiling water off on himself and his chest on Thanksgiving day when he was one, so I understand your argument about "preventing" evil if you can, so why doesn't God "prevent" more tragedies like that? I'm not sure. I don't think there is an easy answer for that one. My little buddy still has the scars, but his face healed up ok, but I never blamed God for the accident.

  294. Achems Razor

    @ Charles B:

    It does not make any sense at all, so if no one ate of the fruit, where would we all be? not knowing anything, being in paradise forever? Living forever, for who? as your Gods little play things? boring! boring? have to ask permission for everything, we would not be writing each other via computer now would we?

    I can not imagine a worst scenario!! And like I said depends which Bibles you read, women were not even allowed in church if they had there periods.

    And check out what the so called fathers of the church thought of Eve!
    But I forgot everything is cherry picking in the Bible!

  295. Achems Razor

    I still say they where all full of Magic Mushrooms, Amanita Muscaria, for example, that gave religious epiphanys. that is the only fruit that was ever eaten.

  296. Epicurus

    @charles, okay thats fine. but there was no adam and eve and no garden of eden. that is a story. a myth made up by people. you have to understand that. you dont believe in harry potter or mother goose do you?

    if you dont believe in the hindu gods and their creation stories why are you so sure of your own?

    now back to what you were saying. adam had not eaten of the tree of knowledge so he could not have known better. you are basing your whole structure on a flawed story and are completely refusing to examine the flaws in it.

    ps that is terrible about your son. if you had the ability to know it would happen and if you had the power to stop it you would. because you are a moral human being who knows humans can be taught lessons without hurting them. if you can realize this why cant god.

    and the answer that you dont know is refreshingly honest but when you dont know you should stop there and think about if you dont know maybe because it doesnt make sense.....?

  297. Charles B.

    Razor: I'm not sure what the world would be like if Adam and Eve had not sinned, but bordom I'm quite sure would not be on the agenda. It's all academic anyway.

    The real question is where is all this going? The eventual never-ending forever-unfolding conclusion of God's plan is not a return to Eden, but a return to eternal righteousness in a time where we will ever be learning, understanding, and exploring, I'm quite sure. This is a big universe and eternity is a long time to learn and see and do . . . EVERYTHING. No bordom allowed in God's kingdom, Razor. Sorry to disappoint. Why would you need computers when you can move at the speed of thought? I'd just come visit you in Canada, rather than send posts!

  298. Charles B.

    Epic: No, I don't believe in Mother Goose or Harry Potter, but neither is a there a billion people on earth believing it either; Christianity is not equatable with Mother Goose fairy tales. Witchcraft if very real, however; it's powerful, just not of God.

    Eipicurus, Adam was not dim witted. He had one command: "Don't eat of that tree!" and so I'm quite sure God had given him intellect enough to make the moral and rational decision to either obey or disobey. The knowledge of other things right and wrong came later. My 17-month-old is just strong enough to push open the bathroom door and yell "Da-ddy!" when I'm taking a shower, and I yell back "Sweetie!" She has no concept of "privecy" yet, but she sure knows not to eat the rabbit food!

    Adam may not have known all "good and evil" before he at that fruit, but he sure knew it was wrong to disobey God by taking that first bite!

    Question 2:

    How do I know that Christianity is the corect view of God over say, Hinduism or Buddhism, Islam, etc.? Hum. Well, let me ask you why you are so sure ALL of them are wrong, and when you let me know why you believe so resolutely what you hold to be true, then I'll try and explain why I do also.

  299. Charles B.

    One question for Razor, Epic, Eric and Charles Overy, etc.

    My rational as a Christian is easy to understand. I belive in a feal God and a real Satan and a real Heaven to gain and real Hell to avoid, and a litterally true Bible. To persuade someone to join us is to gain a friend and brother forever. Litterally. We try so hard out of love for other's souls (or at least we should).

    What motivates an "atheist"? Why try so hard to disuade me and others like me? What do you have to offer besides eternal "nothingness." Do you even believe in the "soul"? Seriously. I'd like to know "Why?" What motivates you guys so resolutely?


  300. Hardy

    Not commenting on the witchcraft thing:

    Why? I don't know! I don't know the absolute answer to why I am here. But does that disturb me? Not at all! In essence, the most mature thing to do while thinking about this topic is to accept that NOBODY on this earth knows "Why", not even you, Charles.

    And so I live my life how I see fit, I follow moral standards, I try to help humanity as a whole (obviously playing a very small part) and I pursue personal happiness while doing so. Does it disturb me that I don't KNOW why I am here? Nope.

    (Why I follow these moral standards is a different question that would take a bit more text to answer)

  301. Charles B.

    Hardy: Fair enough for "Why?" Do you hold any specific concept of "eternity" or the soul?

  302. Hardy

    I believe there is more to life than science. There is something more, soul, consciousness, thought, eternity, call it what you may, but I have no idea concerning the nature of this "soul". It's simply out of reach for our brain, we cannot understand it just as little as we can understand any dimension after the third.

  303. Hesus

    @ Charles

    The reason is simple. It is reason. I do not imagine for a minute that I could change your mind about the Bible. I do however enjoy a discussion on this topic. I am not a person that has convictions and not understand where they come from. My non belief was a part of my upbringing. To be accurate it really was almost never debated. I understand that majority of people will believe what they were taught in their youth. Rather than just accepting that as a given I try to educate myself and based on that draw my own conclusions. If you would have the same approach rather just accepting your belief without critical thinking than maybe you would understand. Atheism does not offer eternal life but it lets you keep your mind. Yours for example is hijacked by angles, lakes of fire and such. Not for me thank you.

  304. Joe_nyc

    Again, with Charles, religion is more thoughtful and interesting than one can easily dismiss it. Let me add my two pennies here regarding your statement-

    "What motivates an “atheist”? Why try so hard to disuade me and others like me?"

    I think even moderate religion (I am guessing you are not an extremist) breeds irrational behaviour which brings horrific amount pain and suffering to our society. To name a few, 9/11, suicide bombings, abortion clinic bombings, Inquisition, and even the doc 'Jesus Camp'. I am sure many atheists can add lot more examples. Voltaire said, ' ones who can convince abusurdities can also convince to commit atrocities'. IMO - Faith makes you do dumb things. Faith divides families to communities to nations. And in most of the times, with much hate and bigotry and racism which we can certainly do without.

  305. Achems Razor

    @ Charles B:

    I suppose all of us are trying to find the answer to that age old question of we are we here?

    Move at the speed of thought? we already are, our very core, our thoughts, are moving billions of times faster than the speed of light in our entanglement with matter, and that means our bodies also.

    Believe in the soul? I believe we are an offshoot of Universal consciousness, separate "Entities" conscious units of energy that can never be destroyed. What @ Hardy: said about more than science holds merit.

    Our bodies may not live forever, but our prime mover, our essence of "I" will always prevail.

    Heaven and Hell? you will hallucinate what you believe for a short time. Not forever.

    Oblivion? Try to imagine a state where nothing exists. Such a state is impossible, even contradictory, since the concept existence is necessary to apprehend it therefore existence exists necessarily, even if nothing else exists.

  306. Epicurus

    my comment/response is awaiting moderation.....but its there.

    what i didnt add in my first response though is that i dont believe in spirit or soul. there is no reason to assume such a thing exists. as a student of psychology i believe that which people call the soul is the consciousness. and the consciousness is nothing magical, only to the layman who isnt educated in the matter.

  307. Hardy

    @Epicurus: Please elaborate on what psychology students learn about the consciousness - it has always been a mystery to me.

  308. Eric Howe

    @Charles B:

    "[Hinduism or Buddhism, Islam, ...] Well, let me ask you why you are so
    sure ALL of them are wrong..."

    They're wrong because there's no evidence for any of them and the
    answers that they claim to provide have consistently been shown to
    be untrue. Religion (and other sources of "revealed knowledge") have
    a terrible track record where the truth is concerned. Non-rational
    knowledge has failed over and over again to accurately describe
    reality. Executive summary: there is no reason to believe any religions
    and they have all be incorrect time and time again throughout the

    What makes you think that Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Janism, Shintoism,
    Taoism, and various other religious systems are wrong when you -- by your
    own admission -- know little to nothing about them?

    The rational/scientific approach actually works and produces correct
    results. Medicine, computers, nuclear reactors, space flight, bridges,
    quantum mechanics, evolution, relativity, chemistry, and sundry other
    scientific disciplines and results are real, they work, they produce
    verifiable results, and they are self-correcting (self-refining would
    be a more accurate term) as new knowledge is gained. Your magical systems
    offer none of this.

    As far as the "supernatural" in general goes, the word itself is absurd
    on its face. As soon as something (say a "soul", "spirit", "demon",
    "angel", ...) interacts with the natural (say your nervous system)
    then it becomes a natural and scientificly testable event. If you
    have soul then it interacts with your nervous system to activate your
    muscles, that in turn moves your body around and produces speech and
    other physical effects. So, we should, in principle, be able to build an
    apparatus to mimic a nervous system and detect this soul you believe
    in. Get to work and provide some evidence.

    "...belive in a feal God and a real Satan and a real Heaven to gain and
    real Hell..."

    You might want to do a bit more research on that. The Judeo-Christian
    idea of Satan has changed a hell of a lot over the centuries. You might
    want to start with "The Origin of Satan" by Elaine Pagels.

    @Joe_nyc summed up the anti-religion argument quite well. I'd like to
    add armageddon (the end of the world, not the place) to the list. A
    lot of Christians look forward to the end of the world, the end of the
    world that I live in, that my friends live in. These people are also
    terrifyingly close to enough nuclear weapons to do the job and sterilize
    the entire planet.

  309. Charles B.

    Ok. Thanks guys. No time today to respond. I'll get back to you when I'm able. I appreciate your added time and effort.

    Charles B.

  310. Hardy

    It's too bad that Charles is so often alone...

  311. Eric Howe


    My experience is that hard core Christians tend to be very insular. This is pretty standard behavior in any authoritarian system, purity of essence and all that.

  312. Charles B.

    Hardy: Thank you for your reply. I'm sure we cannot understand everything about the spiritual aspect of who we are now, but we can hit the major points; it's possible to know a few things for sure and be convinced of them at least in your own heart. Peace.

    P.S. I may be a bit "lonely" on this website, but that's just because I'm trying to play ball in your court. In my court, or my circle of friends I'm liked just fine. :-)

    Hesus: It's true that a lot of people keep their parents religious faith (I pray my kids do!), but it's not a given. I for one am a Christian because I've thought it out well, and it is my choice. I have two non-believing brothers. I just didn't follow suit.

  313. Charles B.

    Joe_NYC: Joe, the best of the best of humanity are those that love God. Sure, there are evil people within the church, and a lot done in God's name is not of God. Jesus Himself said that the "Kingdom of God is like a dragnet containing both the good and the bad." I had to ponder that for a long time. Jesus understood that the evil would also join the church for their own evil purposes. Jesus used the example of the priest and the Levite ignoring the wounded man on the way, but the Samaritan (hated half-bloods of the day), showed mercy. So, it's not entirely surprising to me that there is evil even in the true church, and no mystery whatsoever about evil in other religions. That's a given if they are not of God's making. As far as division in families and communities, and the such, that's unavoidable. Evil only need good men to do nothing to triumph. You have to also remember that Atheistic Communists killed 120 million people in the last century. That's not small potatoes. To be human is to wrestle with our evil sinful nature. To know God is to start to try and do something about it. God is not racist, nor are his true followers.

    You have my apologies on behalf of theose called "Christian" that have done great evil in God's name. It's a shame on the Church for which there is no excuse. I'm sorry.

    Mr. Razor: Hum. Ok. Let me think about that one for a while. My eternal engergy bundle is manifesting only partial comprehencibility of your post at the moment. ;-)

    Epic: What do you make of "soul travel" or out of body experiences if there is no soul, let alone all the testimonies of people that have died (some for a long time) and then came back and had stories of what had happened while they were dead, etc.

  314. Charles B.

    Eric Howe: Eric, your logical mind relies heavily on testible processes, etc. that you call science. It's what you believe in and it's what is imporant to you. Me too. I love learning any new scientific truth that comes along. But, I also take the Bible seriously, so please just humor me in what is important to me as I have my explination. I asked you first so if you answered I could ask you to indulge me, as all my answers are spiritual in nature and rely heavily on Biblical texts as I understand them.

    With that said, there is a passage in Romans that says "The Spirit of God bears witness with our spirits that we are the children of God." It means that you know that you know when you belong to God, as his spirit speaks that confidence to you perosnally. That is how I know I'm on the right track. I don't have to try every religion to know the real thing when I've found it. If you don't believe in the soul, there is not much I can do to persuade you otherwise, but that is my truthful answer. When you've found what you're looking for as I have, you don't need to keep searching for it; you just go deeper and deeper still, as is my life's goal and passion. Peace.

    Ok. The world, "supernatural" is an oxymoron, or a paradox, if you'd like. But actually, for me, I take what the Bible says to heart that "what is seen is temporary, but what is not seen is eternal." This is in direct contrast to what you seem to be saying.

    The word "satan" means "accuser" and the concept of who he is and/or what he is has indeed developed over time. Jesus referred to him in personal terms, so that is a very big leap forward in the concept. Many spiritual concepts have developed more fully in the process of time including Hell, and even the soul. That's natural. I would expect even more insight into the realities of what is true in the future as we learn and understand even more deeply the things of God. But, with a word of caution, "Test the spirits to see if they are God" means we need to judge everything well, as not all things that pop up and not every "new thing" is to be taken hook, line and sinker.

    The end of the world --- well, I think we have different ideas of what that is. Even "Armageddon" has several layers. Jesus calls "the end of the age" not the end of the world. The world will be changed, remodeled and rejuvinated, but it shall not end, even after Armageddon. True Christians are planning to serilize anything. That sounds more like radical evironmentalists that want to kill everyone off. That's not a fundamentalist Christian's goal. Well, Mr. Phelps from the Westbory Baptist Church might be wanting that, but that's not the mind of God. When the disciples were angry at people that rejected them, and they wanted to call fire down from Heaven to destroy the town (and I rather believe they could have), Jesus rebuked them and said, "You don't have any idea what spirit you are of" and said that he came to save the lost not to destroy them.

    Entire books have been written over the subject, so this is just the breifest of the briefs. What I know will happen, and hope will happen is that when all is said and done (after tribulation, Armageddon, etc.) then in Revelation 21 it talks about the reformation of the perfect sinless Earth. People are still there, and so are animals and life goes on. The age of sin and death is over. I do hope that God remakes dinos. I would love to see one someday. I think every kid does, and me and my son are no exceptions. When I think of the end of the world (the age), it's a good thing, not a bad thing.

    Dec. 21, 2012 as doomsday? That's not something you mentioned, but I'll just throw that one in here. Well, yes, I think bad times and terrible distruction is comming in 2012 and beyond for a while, but it's not the end of the age quite yet. Just be ready, like I am, for "personal catastrephy" at any time just in case it's your time to meet God face-to-Face.

  315. Charles B.

    Vlatko: I really love your doc site and I appreciate your hospitality in allowing us to diverge a bit on this doc's comments. Please accept my apologies for the lengthy and/or multiple posts. You have my appreciation! Thanks again for a really great website. I actually watch a lot of the docs as well as comment on them. Sometimes I even watch one and don't leave a comment; but usually not! :-)


    Charles B.

  316. Charles B.

    Eric: I wrote you a note too, but it was too long and had too many religious "catch words" in it, so it has to go to the Vlatko for approval. :-) Nothing rude, however. Don't worry.

  317. Joe_nyc

    Hitler and Stalin argument? Again? Hmmmmmm

    Curious. Charles, what do you teach?

  318. Charles B.

    Joe: Hitler wasn't Communist. I didn't mention Hitler at all, but just the Communists. I teach high school English at the moment, but I have taught at the university level in the past, and I think I'd like to go back to that level eventually. What do you teach?


  319. Joe_nyc

    I guess you are not familiar with the Apologist's Hitler and Stalin counter argument. It's very popular with Fundamentalists.

    I didn't mean any disrespect. Like I said, just curious. And I don't teach anything. I am just an average Joe. :)

  320. Epicurus

    charles if you have teached in university you must have a PhD. may i ask in what?

    also you asked me about soul projection or such thing. just because someone makes claims they went out of their body doesnt mean they did. if you want to believe every magic story you are told that is fine. i think you missed my main post because it was awaiting moderation.

  321. BBC


    I'm with Charles B. He aint alone. I just have nothing to say, the comments just go back and fourth, and always come back to the same thing.

    Go Charles Go!


    I like all you guys actually.

  322. Charles B.

    BBC: I actually like most people here also. I'm partial to Mr. Razor's quips. Only REB really got under my skin to the point were I said like John Hammond in Jerrasic Park: "I really don't like that man!" ;-)

    Eric: My longer post to you has cleared the Vladko, just in case you missed it.

    Epic: Yes, I missed your first post, but I've read it now. I teach English as a second language so I don't need a Ph.D. to teach at a university level in most Asian countries. But, when I go back for my advanced degree (all I need is the time and money) it will still be in Theology as that is where my heart is. All else would bore me. :-) I'll post a longer answer now. If it's not here, then wait for it, provided it passes the Vlatko! Thanks.

  323. Charles B.


    I really disagree! There is a very big difference between Mother Goose and other religions. Most religions are not merely "powerless" fairy tails. Many religions have a demonic base, and they are very real. I've met and talked with a former Satanist, and he certainly had power as a Satanist. His special abilities left him (the demons) when he became a Christian. Also, I watched the testimony of a former Hindu that had horrendous demonic attacks from his former "gods" when he converted to Christianity.

    Virtually all religions have some demonic element associated with them and are NOT just harmless stories and practices. If you've never had any association with a demonic presence, then you are one of the few and far between.

    You're right about numbers can be wrong. I concede the point. After reading that 100,000,000 Americans believe 9-11 was an inside job (via Mr. Razor's witty quip on another thread), I'm very much willing to admit that people can be idiots en mass! But, on a lighter note, I thought there were only 1 billion Christians practicing today. A number as large as 2.1 billion is amazing to me! Praise God! You've made me very happy today. Jesus said that "Narrow is the way that leads to life and only a few will find it . . ." so I'm very pleased if 2.1 billion is an accurate number. Only God knows for sure. Jesus said we'd always be the minority, so that's no shock to me. Fat white boy in Asia . . . I'm a minority all the time and everywhere. ;-)

    Denomination explanation: Why are there so many churches and different denominations? Well, why are there so many flavors of ice cream? If one flavor is all you get, we'd learn to live with it, but if you have Baskin Robins 31! That's great! God knows those who belong to Him and those that don't. I'm a member of one denomination, preach in a different one, and went on missions trip with yet even a 3rd different denomination. I led a early morning Bible study in my home town and at least 12 to 15 different denominations participated with me, including a Catholic preast. As long as a church group majors on the "majors" and minors on the "minors" then viva la difference!

    OK. Good call on the "rational" word misuse. You would make a good grammar teacher. My MOTIVE (A.K.A. rational) for being a Christian (personally) was originally:
    1. To avoid Hell myself initially.
    2. Now, my motive for serving God is out of love for what He has done for me, and my desire to return love to Him in whatever way I can.

    Only three things in the world are eternal:
    1. God
    2. God's Word (including what is said in Scripture)
    3. The souls of men and women.

    I cannot change the first two, but I can influence the souls of men to make wise decisions for eternity. That's my motive for what I do much of the time of late.

    According to your link, there may be a very good reason why "Atheists are the least trusted minority in the country." You may argue about religious people that have caused harm or whatnot, in your opinion in America, but Atheism is at the heart of Communism, and you have to admit they've killed millions and millions and millions, and that's why "I care" about maintaining religious freedom (and honor and prominence) in America and beyond. Not being able to join the Boy Scouts or hold office in Texas if you're an Atheist cannot even hold a candle to the atrocities of Godlessness around the world.

    Lastly, Epic, I think you're missing out on the best of life; life is more than just what meets the eye. We are spiritual people in an "earth-suit" and if you believe all there is to life is this earthly few decades we get here, what a boring sad life that would be. Jesus came that we might have more abundant life NOW and eternal life in the age to come.

    How I love Him more and more each day. He has my heart, mind, and soul both now, tomorrow, and always.


  324. Mr. Balls

    "...Many religions have a demonic base, and they are very real. I’ve met and talked with a former Satanist, and he certainly had power as a Satanist. His special abilities left him (the demons) when he became a Christian. Also, I watched the testimony of a former Hindu that had horrendous demonic attacks from his former “gods” when he converted to Christianity.

    Virtually all religions have some demonic element associated with them and are NOT just harmless stories and practices. If you’ve never had any association with a demonic presence, then you are one of the few and far between..."

    I must say I was shocked to learn I was part of that little known minority of people who have by sheer luck managed to dodge a demonic encounter. This subject has never really come up in conversation with family and friends, so maybe this happens more frequently than I had previously imagined?? Anyway, it should be a fun topic for summer BBQ season in the Windy City.

    I was also unaware that being a Satanist gives one special powers. Like what?!? Levitation? Super strength? Photographic memory? Longer erections? If so, why would anyone give it up?

  325. God

    You guys who believe in me and spend your lives worshiping my non-existence are ridiculous.
    Go out and get lives and stop believing in these stupid fairy tales.
    I have spoken.

  326. Hardy

    Oh my, I'm sorry Charles, but you are getting scarier by the minute. Demons? Possessions? Attacks?

    We really need to get more money into schools all over the world - education normally gets rid of superstition. I really don't mean to be insulting, please believe me, but this witchcraft/demon/superpowersatanist stuff is pure religious mumbo-jumbo and it scares me to death that Charles is probably not the only one on this world who believes in it.

  327. Achems Razor

    It is true, most religious people do believe in devils, demons etc:

    But by the same token you do not have to religious at all to believe in devils, demons, poltergeists etc:

    It is something that I will not recommend to pursue, unless you know exactly what you are doing.
    Did you ever try an "Ouija Board"? the damn thing does move by itself!

    I have my own theories on that stuff, maybe sometime on an appropriate doc.

  328. Epicurus

    @Charles B. im sorry to say this but if you actually believe someone who was a satanist had powers or demons you A) dont know what satanism is B) were lied to and are very gullible or C) insane.

    there is no point in responding to someone about demons or evil powers i might as well argue with someone who is saying storks bring babies.

    about the denominations. they each have drastically different teachings and are not all able to be correct. one is right or all are wrong. your experience of denomination hoping didnt help make a point. the analogy of ice cream doesnt work either because ice cream flavour is a subjective experience. the nature of god is objective.

    your motives for belief are still not a logical rationale but you are correct they are a rationale nonetheless. but lets look at these:

    your first reason was "to avoid hell" your rationale was based on an assumption that hell is real...what was your rationale for that and why dont you believe in the Hades (Greek afterlife)?

    your second and present reason is to return the love to god that you have experienced from him. i see two problems here. first you dont KNOW and cant be SURE that anything that has happened in your life can be attributed to the christian god or any deity for that matter. there could be perfectly reasonable explanations for everything, but you seem to cling to the most fantastic explanation possible because it fills a void. i also see this second reason as Stockholm Syndrome. if god is real there are many better ways he could do things and i think the way christians behave is much like hostages that have decided to embrace their hostage taker...the one with the gun (metaphor) to their head saying "love me or else...."

    about three things being listed three things yet didnt verify how you know this to be so. or even HOW you could know it is so. its just baseless poetic language that you are regurgitating.

    WOW! please list ONE thing atheism has caused in this world that is negative. NOTHING ABOUT COMMUNISM IS ATHEISTIC. in fact jesus would have been a communist. jesus would never have embraced democracy OR capitalism. and the only people who think he would are american republicans. the religious atrocities committed IN THE NAME OF GODS couldnt compare to the crimes committed in the name of NO GOD.

    im sorry but to try and pull the atheism is dangerous bullshit is disgusting and shows you lack the ability to think about this topic critically.

    Lastly i KNOW you are shackled by your belief. it makes you have views on objective reality that are completely wrong and border on delusion. if anyone is missing out here it is you on the beauty of the universe as it is. understanding what makes a rainbow doesnt take away the beauty at all...if anything it adds to it. to understand cosmic evolution and biological evolution like being able to not only hear Beethoven's symphonies, but also being able to read it and see the precision and accuracy. you could just as easily say there is a magic fairy that makes gardens grow but to understand photosynthesis is MUCH more wondrous.

    YOU sir, are the one missing out. and i can only facepalm in sadness.

  329. Epicurus

    oh and while my comment awaits moderation.

    @Achems....i cant believe some of the silly things you believe. you are a very logical can you let things like Ouija boards fool you....

    do you really think the afterlife consists of having to talk to the living through pieces of wood with letters on them made by Mattel?

    my mother is a wiccan and my whole life growing up i was surrounded by Ouija, and Tarot cards and i can assure you it is ALL A FRAUD.

    not once have these supernatural "things" been able to be studied or examined in any scientific manner.
    if you really think you can make a ouija board work i suggest you call James Randi

  330. Joe_nyc


    That was one of the finest post you ever wrote. Almost poetic.
    Storks bringing babies? Stockholm Syndrome? Dude, you are a genius! If anybody can, you can cure Charles.. ;)

    BTW- Don't poo on ouiji board. That sheet really works.

  331. Charles B.

    Morning. Not much time. The spiritual realm is more encompassing than the natural realm, but we just cannot comprehend it all at the moment. Bits and pieces sometimes. C.S. Lewis said that deomons are equally pleased with either of our two overreactions to them: "1. Attributing to much power and attention to them. Or. 2. Disbelief in them entirely." They work equally well in either context to bring about destruction in a person's life.

    I never mentioned "possession" as that's exceedingly very very rare. The Bible in the Greek says "deomonized" which means "influenced by" and that is quite common. Overwhelming compultion to sin, especially very evil (rape, murder, molestation) or self-destructive things (drug use, sexual sins) many times have their base in demonic influence, but not 100% of the time. I also am convinced that more subtle temptations can also have a demonic inspired compultion associated with it.

    There are three fources in life: 1. God/angelic. 2. Satanic/demonic and 3. Human. When the Bible says "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but spiritual forces in high places" that is the demonic elements behind what is happening in the natural world with ordinary people all the way up to world leaders.

    Mr Balls: As I remember, the powers Satanists often have to give up are "demoic discernment" or "I can tell you what you did last summer" sort of thing, the ability to curse someone with illness and sometimes fatally, and the perception of power in "controling" demons. When the get deeper into the religion, they realize they are slaves, and not the master (but not always as the deception can be so complete), but only a few make it out again and only with God's help.

    Epic: awaiting your comments (if I have time to answer). Skiped breakfast again I see. :-(

  332. Achems Razor

    @ Epicurus:

    Me logical?? I am far from logical, I leave that up to Spock!
    I like to delve where no man has delved before!

    What has logic have to do with an Ouija Board? if the damn thing moves than it moves!

    Did I say the Ouija Board fools me? I said have my own theories on that, but than if I told you what they where you would really think that I am off the wall!

    To me nothing is cut and dry that pertains to the 5 senses, there is much, much, much more out there man! All we can envision is our 3 dimensions.

  333. Achems Razor

    Actually what Charles: said, that the spiritual realm is far more encompassing than the physical realm rings true, and I am not talking about religion.

  334. Achems Razor

    You got me going now, I will say this and than cut off for awhile,
    tell me all the logic that persists in Quantum Theory, Quantum Mechanics. Gravity at the Quantum level, and our entanglement with matter, and than we will talk.

  335. Eric Howe

    @Achems Razor:

    Show us that you can do the math behind quantum mechanics and relativity and then we'll take. Until then you're just spouting half baked new age nonsense like that silly "What the Bleep" movie. If you can't speak the language of QM (i.e. do the math) then you might as well be talking about astrology or the demonology of Charles B.

  336. Epicurus

    yes im sorry achems but your knowledge of QM i sso minimal there is no point in discussing it (MINE AS WELL)

    Richard Feynman said; "To those who do not know mathematics it is difficult to get across a real feeling as to the beauty, the deepest beauty, of nature ... If you want to learn about nature, to appreciate nature, it is necessary to understand the language that she speaks in."

    "I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics."

    and most importantly; "You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing — that's what counts. I learned very early the difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something."

    you have to realize that we exist and function in the newtonian level of physics. when you start getting into the quantum world and ignore the newtonian world you have already missed the entire point of QM. the entire reason it is so difficult to understand is trying to understand how it interacts with our world.

    and again...ouija boards are always aboslutely moved by one or more of the people using it. no matter how much you are lied to, the answer is as simple as that.

    @charles. I have read all of C.S. Lewis' works, and i think you were mostly referring to his book The Screwtape Letters (which is one of the coolest fiction and i recommend for everyone). in no way can Lewis be considered an authority of christianity though. he was no more versed in theology than i am. i never understood why christians are so quick to cling to any author or philosopher and hold them up almost like the pope (ie. Lewis, Augustine, Aquinas...)

    i dont think anyone will be able to cure Charles of the indoctrination he has gone through, and honestly that is not my goal. all my goal is, is to level the playing field of comments so that people reading dont just go away with indoctrination, and also to encourage not just the person im discussing with but anyone reading to use that blob of neurons between their ears.

    but again arguing with people about demons would be like arguing with people that storks bring babies, the earth is flat, or my favourite, that the earth is only 6000 years old. LULZ

  337. Achems Razor

    @ Eric Howe:

    I do not remember talking to you, are you the official spokesman now?

    What math would you like, and how would you know it was from me?
    I do not have to show or prove a thing to you.
    I agree with your post, so why the adversary?
    Everybody knows that I am a self taught layman, have never said otherwise.
    So what is your problem?

  338. Achems Razor

    @ Epicurus:

    Yes my knowledge of Quantum is minimal, am still learning, and true, if you think you know Quantum, than you do not know Quantum at all.
    And that goes for everybody, scientists alike. I have repeatedly said the same thing in a lot of my posts. So on that we are on common ground.

    I do know some math but not as much as I would like to know.


  339. Eric Howe

    @Achems Razor:

    I'm interested in what the truth is and that's the only side I'm on. If
    you can't do the math for QM then you're left with second hand accounts
    with no way to verify their veracity and any conclusions you draw are
    highly suspect; I'd say the same to someone making theological claims
    when they can't read ancient Greek or don't know the history of their

    You're more than welcome to call BS on me if you think I'm talking
    through my hat, I won't take it personally. I'm not in high school
    anymore so I have little use for cliques and taking sides. Humanity
    needs to grow up and leave the sort of thing behind. Sometimes we agree,
    sometimes we disagree. That's fine and healthy, adults are allowed to
    disagree without becoming enemies.

    On a friendlier (and even more off topic) note, get yee hence and buy
    everything that Robert Anton Wilson ever wrote. Great stuff and probably
    right up your alley. I'd also recommend "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas

    And for the record, I can do the math.

  340. Achems Razor

    @ Eric Howe:

    Well then, I bow to the master! If you think you know Quantum!

  341. BBC


    "the nature of god is objective."
    If the nature of god is objective, would the effect of god on humans be subjective?

    "in fact jesus would have been a communist."
    I stated in the Bloody History of Communism doc, that true Christianity would be like communism. However, the Communist regimes who commit genocide, were in fact Atheistic in their belief. If a man's life has no intrinsic value, they why can't these leaders kill them? If we are here by chance, and someone kills a member of your family then its just our family members bad luck. They were weak so they died. A true non-political mono-theist would see value in a persons life, because they were created in the image of God.

    "YOU sir, are the one missing out. and i can only facepalm in sadness."
    Charles actually would appear to have a fuller grasp of reality. Charles sees what is seen and unseen. He sees full reality. Where as you only see, what is visible to your eyes. You therefore only see partial reality.

    PS. Science shows there is an unseen reality, or at least it proposes there is.

  342. Epicurus

    @BBC, if the claim that the effect of god is merely subjective than god MUST be shown objectively OR the fallcy of begging the question is occurring. so until god is shown, no claims can be made towards what he does and how it effects someone.

    flawed communist regimes may have been atheistic but you committed a non sequitor by saying that because they are atheistic they dont value life. nothing about their atheism would mean that. actually once again the track record would show it is the theists that are more flippant with human life.

    Atheists find value in human life because it shares the same qualities that I (human) share. that is it feels pain and pleasure, and this is the only period of "life" we know of and as far as we know there is nothing after death (just like before you were born) so we would not want to act in a way toward others that would encourage that action towards us.

    more selfishly humans have found it is easier and more comfortable when many pitch in so we create communities and societies and social groups for support, and for those to function we must follow certain morals that keep the group together and progressing towards the goal. if i were to kill someone i could be punished. i would be punished because the group sees me as a threat to the goal. so through natural systems organization occurs, and is held.

    if anything the religious groups are the ones who are quick to kill or dismiss anything different or that goes against the grain. once again dont try the atheist lacks morals argument. what is your level of education in philosophy of morals anyway??

    charles would appear to have as full a grasp on reality as someone with an imaginary friend. or how about a muslim, or hindu, or jain, or buddhist. he has a view of life that is not certain and has been indoctrinated into him. and he seems more than happy to accept because it makes an otherwise dull world (one of science) full of magic and mystery....

    no science doesnt show there is an unseen reality in the way you are using the terms at all....fallacy of equivocation.

  343. charlesovery

    Let me make a very clear point here. Spirituality can not be proven nor disproven. How is it possible? However, the spiritual realm seems more of philosophical ideas than an actual place. Even the bible suggests this thought as does most anceint historical documents. Look up the Samaritan writings and compare to the rest of the religions of the world. Every culture has had there own spiritual realm and via consequence of that it appears that we have a great line of fairy tales being passed down throughout history. There are three things that consistantly present in all these.

    1. There is some kind of an underworld where the disapproved of go and suffer at the hands of the "evil" lord(s) that run the underworld or hell.

    2. There is always peaceful loving place where the highest of "gods" reign and love and protect those that served them righteously. (Um doesn't this fit the control model of behavior?) Consequently there is always a Heirarchry present in this relam as there is in place in ordered societies here on earth.

    3. There is always a transformation from the bad of oneself to the good of oneself. However, in the "christian" religion, which is the newest doctrination of this philosophy, removes the chance to ever become ones good self after the transformation, trials, and punishments in the underworld or hell. Instead you completely die a second death and no you do not live an eternity in a lake of fire!

    These 3 consitancies lead us to believe that the spiritual realm is based and built on nothing of fact but is actual a product of superstitions. The behavior of "faith" is the reinforcer for continuance of worship and practice of such superstitions. Regardless if you believe in a religion or not it doesn't matter. This is also true for the nonreligious. Why else do you think that people all over the world play fantasy games like DnD, WOW, and many, many others.

  344. Charles B.

    Mr. Overy: I'm so upset that you didn't spell "Christian" with a capital "C"! I'll think of something witty to say later to get you upset if I can. Let me work on it. ;-)

    But seriously, if Christianity is based on Judaism, then it's the oldest and most reliable of faiths, not the "newest doctrination" of your stated philosophy.


    We do have one thing in common, we aren't just writing to each other; I post my comments so that others who are on the fence, so to speak, might read or be encouraged by a thought or idea that is helpful to them as well.

    Oh yes! The Screwtape Letters! You are most correct there. I Love C.S. Lewis. A brilliant thoughtful mind he was.



    That which is spiritual in nature is massive in my individual makeup and worldview; if anything, I struggle just to understand the seemingly "complete" materialism and rejection of the spiritual part of who we are by stanch Atheists.

    A excellent book on the subject of domonization is "They Shall Expel Demons" by Derek Prince. It's a few years old now, but it really did change my whole life for the better. I gave dozens of copies away and didn't even save one for myself. I hope it's still in print. Pick up a copy if you've never read it for further study.


  345. Joe_nyc

    One of my favourite quote:

    "I think that in general we should tell the truth, and even if we express it harshly it can be beneficial. But we should avoid criticizing or insulting people, with a negative intention or a negative view of things. If we do that, our words will cause otherwise to suffer, we will not feel good in ourselves and will only render the atmosphere oppressive and stifling." - Dalai Lama

  346. Joe_nyc

    Charles B

    I do enjoy reading your post. It can be preachy at times but you help me understand how a Christian mind works.

    In light of "For the bible tells me so", I have a question for you.

    Recently, I attended my old childhood church with my mother(she threatened to disowned me) on Easter Sunday. I met my dear old friend, a pastor's son, never got married or had any relationship that I know of, dutifully plays the church organ, and very gay. Like all churches he was our little secret. We were both happy to see each other. Because of the crowd and we couldn't talk much and decided to meet some days later for a dinner. Without being too wordy, I am thinking about showing him "for the bible..." doc. But I don't want to hurt him nor still pretend the obvious.

    What do you think?

  347. Charles B.

    Yeah Dalai Lama! Wouldn't it just be more simple to say, "Be nice, and watch what you say."?

    I've been to Tibet, but Mr. Lama had already moved out of the family palace for quite a while by then, much to the Red Commie's consternation! Got to see his toilet, though. It was a Western style as I remember. Who would have thought!

    The Patola Palace was torture, however; 5,000 Buddahs and not a single bathroom. Litterally. I was never so happy to leave a historic landmark in my whole life . . . took a picture of the squaty potty (just outside the palace) that saved my dignity just in time that day.

    Why yes, it is quite late and I need to get to bed . . . . why do you ask? ;-)

  348. Charles B.

    Hey, Joe -- looks like we're posting at the same time. I haven't watched the whole doc. I couldn't take it. It was such a mockery in my eyes. My lovely purehearted wife was singing "Jesus loves me" along with the child at the beginning of the doc, and I had to tell her, "Honey, they're making fun of Christians." That's when I turned it off.

    So, I'm not sure about the documentary for your friend. What would be the purpose? Would it bring him closer to his family or his faith? Would it make him feel less of an outsider in the church (if he does feel like an outsider)? Would you be trying to "break his faith"? or what is your purpose? When you have an answer to that question, then you have an answer to whether or not to show him this documentary and one I cannot provide for you.

    My gut instinct is to say, "Don't do that to your friend." Just be his friend. Love him, care for him as a friend. Be there for him if he needs you as a friend. But, ultimately, he's your friend and you know the situation better than I.

    Always listen to your mother too, bless her pious motherly heart and go to church, especially on Resurrection Sunday! :-)

    Charles B.

  349. Joe_nyc

    Thanks for your honesty. But I do urge you strongly to finish watching the doc. I promise you if big J was alive he would definitely make his sheep watch it. ;)

  350. charlesovery

    Charles B: nothing offensive was intended. I will explain why I write that that way some other time. I want to address your statement first. Yes "christianity" is the secondary religion of Judiasm. Are you not aware that the bible is two different religions? Judiasm is not the "oldest known scripture base of a religion known to man. The oldest would the Samaritan writings found in what was then called Megadoshouh. Most of the "christian" doctrinations books in the bible were written in the A.D. era. Starting at around 13 A.D. You are right though because the Quaron is slightly younger than the "christian" gospels.

    The oldest forms of religion that has ever been found is the pagan religions of Sun Worship.

  351. Achems Razor

    I have met and actually talked to the Dalai Lama at some length, when he and his entourage where doing a tour, in Kelowna B.C. Canada, I lived there some years back. We where discussing the seven steps to Nirvana, a very brilliant and personable fellow.

  352. Epicurus

    @charles i think its willfully ignorant for you to not have watched this film. in NO WAY was it meant to mock or make fun of christians. its a film BY CHRISTIANS for christians to realize that homosexuality is NOT something that is terrible and should be deemed evil.

    maybe you should watch the movie rather than making a knee jerk reaction.

    this is one main problem with religion. it has a defense mechanism which instills the idea that ANYTHING which goes against the indoctrinated beliefs is insulting or rude, and can be dismissed for that reason....just sad that it encourages ignorance.

  353. Charles B.

    Epic: Oh yes, my friend, this documentary was meant to mock fundamentalist Christians and mock the Bible. You are far too intelligent for that slight and truly beleive it. Not all "sheep" are sheep! I'm a very spiritual person, and instantly I felt like vomiting. But, I will try and watch it all (for Joe's sake) if I can. No promises.

    Mr. Overy: I thought not capitalizing "Chrisitan" was a typeo. I was joking with you, but if you're purposely using incorrect grammar (not my strong point, either) to "belittle" the "bible" "christians" and "the gospels" (specific works, so they also are capitalized), then that's a bit rude. But, I purposely capitalize any reference to the Divine including pronouns unless I'm in a hurry. I suppose that's my subtle attempt at the honor of God and yours is the subtle attempt at degrading the Christian faith, specifically, as other religions, including Sun Worship are capitalized. I think I will google your name and research and try and determin why you chose "Epicurus" for your penname.

  354. charlesovery

    I am not Epicurus! I don't capitalize it properly because it is self given name. My intentions is never to belittle your faith or religin in any manner. How many times do I have say this? I capitalized sun worship to make a point of it, although it shouldn't be. Christianity to me is nothing more than a proven way to show and prove what we call group think. Oh sure there is some historical data there that is actually accurate.

    Faith to me is way of saying I will follow blindly without questioning or research and alllow eanyone and everyone of the same faith to tell what to believe in without me having to do any research on it at all. This is not a proven aspect that "christianity" is THE true religion. How can it be the TRUE religion when it is eclyptic to all other religions before it? Seriously Charles B. I suggest you start seriously trying to understand my intentions for what they really are and not what you want to see in them!

  355. Epicurus

    lol confused are you speaking to me or Mr. Overy? u for one dont capitalize christians because i cant be bothered to capitalize things when im typing in a forum or a message board. if you noticed i dont capitalize my "i" and i dont use ' when speaking in contractions.

    i dont think capitalizing or not capitalizing dishonors or honors anything. something so mundane cant matter.

    and if anything the movie is showing how certain christian people had to deal with their own children being gay. and of course it insults fundamentalist christians. they insult themselves by default of their own beliefs being so absurd.

    a fundamentalist who believes every word in the bible is literal and that the earth is 6000 years old is not any different from someone that believes that bathing in the blood of virgins will keep them eternally youthful. it is absolutely retarded and anyone who would admit such things should not be allowed to vote or have children.

  356. Hardy

    Charles, as a human being living in modern times, it is very hard NOT to mock fundamentalist believers. Shrimp? Linen and Wool? How can you NOT laugh at those verses?

    This documentary is primarily an attempt to bring the Bible into present society. I acknowledge the bible's worth as a work of literature that is meant to be interpreted - at least a few of the passages. Many aren't even useful as metaphors, sadly. If you were to take the complete book literally, you wouldn't be able to live in the world of the year 2010.

    Time is moving on and christianity is trying to catch up.

  357. savedbygrace

    I want to change names to "Ed" or "Eddie" next time. I like Eddie better. This doc is about my life, so I think I have the right to be heard also. Everyone calm down. Let me think and I will get back to this conversation if I am able to talk about it, maybe in a few days. It's embarrasing for me to talk about it openly. Let me sort out what I want to really say. Thanks.

  358. Charles B.

    90 minutes of propaganda! To wrap the tolerance of sin in the arms of "love" and "acceptance" is the most subtle of the ways Satan uses to justify unrighteousness.

    What do they define as "homosexual" behavior in animals? I've known dogs that hump couches. Animals are not humans. We cannot attribute moral actions to animals.

    70% of identicalal twins of gay are also gay? Wouldn't both twins 100% of the time be either gay or not gay if it were strictly biological as they have IDENTICAL DNA to eachother? That's not a good argument.

    For the scripture of not mixing seeds and not mixing wool with linen is simple: God wanted a separated people. These are symbolic of life choices. God wanted His people to constantly see themselves as a "separated" people; holy and righteous. The mixing of the non compatible things like the wool and the linen was not inherently evil unless you view it as the beginning of corruption of their moral lives. To mix with the people of the land and to worship their gods and to take on their customs would mean death to them as a people. If fact, it happened with the sin of 'Balaam" who gave the advice how to make God curse His own people. Sin must be dealt with even with the ones you love dearly, but the heart's desire is important. Yes, Jesus showed mercy to "sinners" but He also said, "Go and sin no more" as well.

    The shrimp is a food that was considered unclean along with many foods for health reasons at the time. It was for their health to avoid dirty and unclean things as food, so it was prohibited. It was a stricter time back then and rule had a purpose. In the New Testament, Jesus later clarified that the eating of various foods were tolerable as long as the heart was pure. Jesus said that defilement comes from the heart, not what goes into the mouth. In fact, everything was permissable in the Garden of Eden except one thing: eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. We have to have wisdom in knowing what is still applicable and what is not. I can talk about why blood was so important to the ancient Israelites also if you like.

    In conclusion, Homosexual behavior shouldn't be compared with other prohibitions in the Old Testament. They are not on equal levels.

  359. Charles B.

    Eddie: Don't feel bullied into anything you don't want to talk about. Not by Epic, or Eric, or even me. It's ok.


  360. Charles B.

    P.S. Sorry Epicurus and Mr. Overy! I wasn't trying to say you guys were the same person. I just forgot who said what and who I was writing to at the moment. My bad. Haste makes waste, or in this case, mistakes. ;-)

  361. Hardy

    Charles, by that logic, identical twins would be exactly the same person who do exactly the same things at exactly the same time.

    Identical twins are different because of the way they grow up. Different friends, different hobbies, many different things. Being gay doesn't exclusively have to do with the genes.

    On the one side you take the bible literally and see it in the times it was written in, on the other side it is the word of god and to be taken literally. Some passages you follow, some you don't, and some you interpret and then follow. If "not eating shrimp" was only applicable in ancient times, why isn't the "being homosexual" also only useful in ancient times? How do you decide such things?

    I'm sorry, but I'm getting tired of this. Obvious logical fallacies, self-righteous moralities that are twisted so they fit for your narrow-minded purposes, satan with demons and witchcraft? Religious fundamentalism is just too much for me.

  362. Charles B.

    Hardy, for one thing, Jesus proclaimed all food "clean" Himself. The Bible also says that we need to "rightfully divide the Word of Truth." You seem a bit "narrow-minded" yourself if you cannot understand "How to decide such things."

    Perhaps, however, I can cut you some slack as the World of God also says that spiritual things are enlightened by God Himself to those who ASK, if we "lack wisdom." If you don't ask, then you may or may not understand even simple Biblical things. My patience with you guys has limits too.


  363. Hardy

    Charles, all I'm saying is that, by your logic, anybody "can decide these things" as he or she wishes. You declare homosexuality to be a sin, yet you can just as much (following your logic!) interpret it like the shrimp-verse.

    Therefore we have, yet another, logical fallacy.

  364. Charles B.

    Hardy: How I generally interpret Scripture is through the lense of Jesus initially. If there is additional information given by Christ Himself in the New Testament that is plain, then go with that. That handles the food laws pretty universally. The New Testament often expands on vague concepts in the Old Testament. Go with the New if you're confused.

    Secondly, there is some intelligence involved, Hardy. Bear with me; So much of the Old Testament seems to be and IS really harsh! You could be stoned for gathering firewood on the Sabbath day, for the practice of witchcraft, sex with animals, stepping foot on the mountain where God's presence was, etc. Dangerous times indeed.

    "Atonement" for ordinary sins involved extensive animal sacrifice and offerings. But, even then, it was not "forgiveness of sins" but merely postponement of payment.

    It may be very hard to explain in brief, and harder for you to understand as a novice, but all things in all ways pointed to Christ in the Old Testament. Everything. The blood of animals was not "payment" for sin; only a time of delay of judgment until Jesus, who was Christ. Christ was perfect, and therefore qualified for the "payment" of sins for all of us; now, then, in the distant past retroactively, and in the future for all that will believe and receive it by faith. His blood was payment in full for all "sin" of all time. Period.

    Jesus is said to have gone to Hell ("Sheol" in Hebrew, or the grave) but not as we understand it now, but as it was then. The grave was divided into a place of holding for the righteous like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and a place of torment for the wicked, like Jezebel and Pharaoh. When Christ descended to Hell the three days of his death, it was then that the righteous then "believed" also in Him and received full pardon. They are now in Heaven, and no longer in the old "Sheol" which is all "Hell" now.

    Now, we have full pardon with the smallest of sincere prayer. There is A LOT of grace offered to us now, Hardy, that was not offered to those in the Old Testament.

    Cultural laws like the food and the mixing of wool with linen, etc. are no longer needed. How do I know? Logic mostly, but Hardy, we also have a God-given conscience. That's the circuit judge in our hearts and souls. When you "sin" you know it. There are some "gray" areas like sleeping with your wife when she is cycling, but homosexuality isn't one of them.

    The only time this breaks down is when people "live in sin" so long, violating their conscience until it no longer sparks a sense of "this is wrong." That is what the Bible calls "searing the conscience" like you would burn a wound until you feel nothing, including the pain or the "prick" of sin.

    I suppose that's the best I can give you as there isn't a standard "This is valid for today and this is not" list anywhere. I hope that was helpful.


  365. Hardy

    So basically, everyone has a personal conscience that decides what is sin and what not. A man is attracted to men and cannot get an erection with women, he lives in a homosexual relationship and is happy - he won't see it as sin, correct? Just as much as you may ignore the shrimp-verse because you don't regard it as sinful (in modern times)?

    If god gave him the ability to distinguish sin from virtue, where did it all go wrong?

  366. Charles B.

    Hardy: If you have a real question, I'll do my best to answer it. Otherwise, let's just call it a night.

    God bless.

  367. Joe_nyc

    Charles B

    For the same reasons why you should not pick and choose certain scriptures you also cannot deliberately take some scriptures out of its context to inflate your conceited beliefs. It's utter hypocrisy to common sense and dangerous to innocent bystanders.

    Furthurmore; your theologically instilled comments are becoming redundant. When do we get to hear from real Charles?

  368. Charles B.

    I'm as true as the sky is blue, Joe. I've held very little back from you guys. The only person who understands everything perfectly is God Himself. When I draw my last breath on Earth, I answer not to anyone but Him, so take it or leave it.

    With Faith,

    Charles B.

  369. Hardy

    Strangely, I was expecting a post like that.

    My point is nonetheless valid and you fail to debunk it. Read the post more carefully if you don't see the question, it is quite evident. If you wish I can rephrase it.

    Until then, I will have to file this discussion under "religious-fundamental-fail".

  370. Joe_nyc

    Charles, I watched my mother suffer for two years because she refused to have a hip replacement surgery. She prayed and prayed along with the whole church. But in the end, on a rainy morning, I took her to get the surgery. Today, she walks with a limp and still hands out religious pamphlets at Times Square. According to the doctor she waited too long for the surgery. But she still believes she hadn't prayed enough. Listen, Christianity is fine in a nice big brick buildings but when reality sets in to those you love it is truly sad.

    Faith might get you that eternity in heaven but while you are with us faith is cruel. And if your God demands this faith then he is not my God.

  371. Achems Razor

    Just now as I am writing this , am watching Jehova's Witnesses, walking around my neighbourhood.
    Pounding on doors that hardly anybody answers. What a lonely sight.

    They have pounded on my door so many times, that they have given up, they just leave brochures.

    What is it about all religions that they must have new recruits? are they that insecure about there religion that they have to justify there beliefs by bringing more people into there fold.

    I have had Church groups, Fundamentalist Christian groups off all kinds banging on my doors.

    Actually would like to target where these people live and get a bunch of us Atheists together and pound on there doors to try to convert them to Atheism.
    No doubt would make headline news around the World!!

    A question for Charles, where in the Bible does it say religions must do that?

  372. Epicurus

    lol charles actually lives in a fantasy world of gods and angels and demons and magic.

    there is no convincing someone who their whole life has created an impenetrable fortress of logical fallacies and indoctrination.

    you can see he doesnt even address what is being asked and goes on tangents about how HE INTERPRETS the bible. nothing more.

    why if the bible is what we have to use as our source of information for this god thing, why is it so flawed? why is it so immoral and culturally irrelevant?

    if a line says to kill your children when they speak back or to kill people who try to convert you or to kill people who eat a certain food on a certain day and to kill people who are attracted to the same sex, how do you pick and choose which ones of these we still follow and what are the punishments for them

    why couldnt god just make a bible every generation to make it relevant?

    why am i asking these questions expecting to get anything other than proselytizing and more quotes from the bible (circular logic)

    i suggest taking a class in critical thinking or logic and analyzing your own arguments because they are just awful.

    from now on im going to deconstruct every fallacious post and point out how, why and what fallacy is being committed.

  373. BBC


    "If god gave him the ability to distinguish sin from virtue, where did it all go wrong?"

    We all have the ability to distinguish, this does not mean we always listen. People want to gratify their desires. The Bible says we are slaves to the flesh. If i find a million dollars, i know its not mine. in my mind i also know someone lost a million dollars. I will justify to my self quite easily why i am keeping the money, to satisfy my greed. I am still a thief, but all the nice things i get with the money allow me to ignore my conscience.

    We ignore the voice of God, and justify the things we do wrong. This is where it goes wrong. Not all guilt and shame felt by homosexuals comes from religious fanatics. It comes from their own conscience, whether from a religious family or not.

    Many same sex oriented people want to have children. At some point in their lives they realize that they can not have them naturally. This could be a place in their lives where they question themselves. Most times the flesh always wins out over the conscience. We are made more aware of how often we give into the flesh especially when we have a personal relationship with Jesus.

    Every inclination of a person's heart is evil. Even "born agains" who know Jesus still sin. This is why they need Jesus. Because without Him, all the religion and knowledge in the world would not save a person. Only being covered by His blood, can save a person. I realize more and more every day how short of the glory of God i fall. Most people see me as a good person. Only i know the selfishness of my deep inner self. I need Jesus. So does the whole world!


    Most religions bang on new converts, to increase their rewards. Whether it be karma or vestile virgins (be a good person=have a good afterlife). Religions are looking to find favour with their deities. Deity manipulation if you will.

    People who know Jesus Christ personally share what He has done in their lives, because they have experienced something good and exciting. If a person has a kid, most people tell all their friends the good news. When there is cheap gas somewhere people tell all their friends.

    There is a difference between religee's trying to get converts, and people who have experienced Jesus Christ. One loves themselves, the latter loves others.

  374. Epicurus

    whats the difference between one who has experienced jesus christ and one who has experienced Shiva?

    what is the difference between someone who has experienced christ and someone who experienced mohammed? or even alien abductions?

    a casual stroll through the lunatic asylum will show that faith or belief means NOTHING

    The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike

  375. Hardy

    @Archems: It's logical. A religion that doesn't recruit will die out. A religion that recruits will prosper. It's basically evolution (the irony, the irony).

  376. Joe_nyc


    I ask you again. How do you know Jesus Christ personally?

    Do you talk to him?
    Can you see him?
    Does he talk back?
    Jesus..I have hundreds of questions.....

    Or is it similar to way my son believes there are zombies in his closet. I open the closet and show him there are no zombies. But he insists and assures me that zombies are real. He says he "feels" them. He refuses to sleep alone in his room and drives me nuts. And he is 11 years old!

    I am not trying to be funny. I am genuinely curious.

  377. Achems Razor

    Ha,Ha. Okay fellows, all your viewpoints are very "logical".

    I do know what you-all are talking about. One thing you forgot to mention is Money, Quoting the late great "George Carlin", "they just cannot handle Money, they always need more money"!!

    BBC: so you came off the fence have you? That is your prerogative, at least we know where you stand.

    @ Joe: How does BBC: know Christ personally? it is his mind construct.
    So it is as real to him as your sons thinking that there are Zombies in his room, but for your son, reason will prevail eventually. Not so for religee's!

  378. Hesus

    @ Epicurus

    lol lunatic asylum... Joe if Jesus ever did come back he is probably in some mental institution. So you might want to start looking for him there.

  379. Paola

    Let me tell you what IS an abomination:

    * A closed mind - especially combined with an open mouth.
    * Ignorance - particularly when combined with a lack of interest in becoming knowledgeable.
    * Hate - this includes homophobia, racism, sexism etc.
    * Intolerance.
    * Judgement & deciding that someones life is less valuable than your own.
    * Willfully causing physical, psychological or emotional harm to another person or animal not in self defense.

  380. Charles B.

    Hardy: What is your question directly? How can someone choose which verse to follow and which one is cultural, etc.? Use Godly wisdom; even my 17 month old knows some right from wrong and she acts "guilty" when she's breaking the rules.

    Or about the "happy" gay man, following his "conscience"?

    Hardy, You have to keep things in wise perspective; yes, we all have a conscience, but some people are quite good at ignoring it or bypassing it for their own selfish gain. The Word of God says that "There is a way that seems right to man, but the end thereof is death." That tells me that mankind (in general) can and does deceive themselves with the result of eternal damnation in Hell. So, "No, the "happy" gay man cannot set his own agenda for his life just because he feels no guilt about it." It's a combination of what is stated in the Bible as well as following our God-given conscience both. That's as precise as I can make it without knowing specifically or not if that is the main issue you're hinting at.


  381. Charles B.

    New York Joe: Now I understand about what you mean about "innocent bystanders" getting hurt. You think your mom's a victim of someone else's fanaticism and belief in divine healing. I'm sorry about your mother. I don't understand why some who are "faithful" and diligent to pray don't get their healing. It's overly simplistic and demeaning to say that their faith wasn't "strong enough" or that they were "undeserving" in some way. It may be of little comfort to know that I don't understand the reasons behind that at all. Have a little more faith in "faith" Joe. The "rain" falls on both the evil and the righteous; it's a fact of life; the difference in life is how we handle the storms until our time to meet God face to Face and learn the reason "Why?" Your mom has my sympathies.

    Zombies in the Closet: Joe! Obviously you don't believe in the "demonic" nor the "angelic" but what if you're wrong? I also was always very sensitive to spiritual things as a child. Listen to your kid and deal with this. But of course, you have limited resources to handle a demonic attack on your son if you have no positive means to defend him spiritually. You're the dad, nothing can get to your kids except through you. Don't be angry with him; listen, really listen to him. Please.


  382. Charles B.

    Joe: P.S.

    How do you hear God's voice? You listen. Sometimes I hear "His voice" very clearly, but sometimes nothing at all. It's just part of the walk of "faith." I'm inclined to think that if you seek Him sincerely (even if secretly if you like), He'll speak to you clearly at this point in time. But, Joe, I know enough that He may tell you one direction to follow, and until you do, you'll get nothing more from Him. It's an obey and then you'll get more kind of thing. Almost always.


    Charles B.

  383. Charles B.

    Razor: Religious people have two main reasons for doing what they do:

    1. A fear of Hell, and/or a guilt of not doing it and out of a sense of forced "duty". I do believe the J.W.'s are required to do that by their denomination, as it's a world-wide phenomenon with them.

    2. They do it out of love and concern for other's souls and have a pure motive for sharing. How utterly selfish it would be to not share "eternal life" with others, but lazily just meander into Heaven alone while others perish in Hell. That is how I feel. I'm not afraid of Hell if I don't "evangelize" but I believe it to my core that Christianity is the one true way and so at all times and in some ways I try to do good for all I can as much as I can. With wisdom, of course. Where is this command found? Finally, and easy question!

    Matthew 28:19-20 says "'Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.' Amen."

    Ok. Yes, #3. Money, but to Hell with "Christians" that have that as their sole (soul) motive, Mr. Razor. God is never mocked, even by those that use His name for their own selfish gain. I've done missions work, and I've had to raise funds too, but it was never my soul's motive, but a necessary "evil" is you wish.

    Double Peace For You Today,

    Charles B.

  384. Charles B.

    Epicurus: Your very wise, I see, while you consistently degrade me and what I believe and what I have in. Let me ask you three questions before I try and answer yours. 1. Have you always been so cold-hearted and hateful towards people of faith, and if not, how did you get that way? 2. Research the words of Jesus in the New Testament where people were brought to Him for judgment. What did he say? Why did he say it? Specifically the woman caught in adultery, and His disciples that were plucking grain on the Sabbath day to eat when they were hungry, and David eating the show bread in the Temple and the woman at the well. 3. What did Jesus say and do with the highly religious Pharisees and Sadducees of his day (if you know).

    If you answer these three questions for me, then I will try harder to answer the your snide post where you say that "you can see he [me] doesn't even address what is being asked and goes on tangents about how HE INTERPRETS the bible. nothing more."

    Cordially Yours,

    Charles B.

  385. Charles B.


    You said:

    "Let me tell you what IS an abomination:

    * A closed mind – especially combined with an open mouth.
    * Ignorance – particularly when combined with a lack of interest in becoming knowledgeable.
    * Hate – this includes homophobia, racism, sexism etc.
    * Intolerance.
    * Judgement & deciding that someones life is less valuable than your own.
    * Willfully causing physical, psychological or emotional harm to another person or animal not in self defense."

    I agree! But we can't hold it against the non-believers; have a little grace. They haven't met Jesus yet. :-)

  386. oshonaire

    @ joe_nyc:
    concerning your mother, she is no doubt a woman who has great faith in God but she is DEFINITELY wrong concerning her reasons for not being sure it was Gods will for her to be healed of her infirmity but she made a common error in her anticipation of HOW this must error encouraged probably by a phobia for surgery...
    paul, the apostle who himself was renowned as a healer offers, practical advice to timothy his protegee who apparently had recurent gastrointestinal health issues,no supernatural recipes were forthcoming, instead he prescribes the medical remedy of the day...
    " no longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities"

    my point being that God does not always have to do by the spectacular, something that can be done humanly. this is of course one possible reason why your mom's prayer was not answered..another could be that God simply wanted her to learn to face her fears and trust he will see her through rather than simply take away the affliction.

  387. Paola

    I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask a multi-layered question.

    Since my question can be asked with regard to sexuality, race, religion or any number of other topics going as far down the list as vegetarianism, what I want is an honest from your heart answer on my query. I am not looking for an answer from the Bible, no verse, no sermon, no well meaning interpretations just in your gut honesty.

    For those who believe in God & the Bible but stand in judgement of others:

    - Upon the demise of your physical body, do you not stand before God in judgement?
    If yes
    1) Is God not the one who shall do ALL and the only judging?
    2) How, when & why has it become other mortal man's right, civic duty, personal passion, religious following, vendetta, etc to stand in judgement of your brothers & sisters if God is supposed to take care of all that in his kingdom?

    Please don't make me sorry I posed this question, I'm simply trying to understand a view different than my own. I can read the Bible myself.

    Thank you for your input.

  388. charlesovery

    Charles B: not to make feel targetted or anything but when you stated this: "Perhaps, however, I can cut you some slack as the World of God also says that spiritual things are enlightened by God Himself to those who ASK, if we “lack wisdom.” If you don’t ask, then you may or may not understand even simple Biblical things. My patience with you guys has limits too.", I couldn't but to respond.

    I do not ask the "christian" god for anything, yet I have no problem researching and understand the King James version of the bible and biblical events. There are others out there as well that have this ability. No I am not guided by Satan either!

    You also stated this: "90 minutes of propaganda! To wrap the tolerance of sin in the arms of “love” and “acceptance” is the most subtle of the ways Satan uses to justify unrighteousness." This comment bothered me because it shows that you gain your knowledge only from circular logic.

    The Old Testament is basically Judiasm, however there has been some significant changes betweeen the two texts of the Taroh and the Bible. Satan in the Taroh is actually a spiritual being that does work for god by being the tempter of mankind. This is evident throuhgout the Taroh and is somewhat suggested in the Bible. In the very beginning part of the book of Job, Satan is directed by god to look at and tempt Job. This was done to prove Jobs faith of god. A lesson some "christians" say is the a perfect example how easy it is to fall from the path of righteousness. However, there is some serious issues with that concept.

    1. The word was in the beginning and the word was good...according to the bible. Also in the beginning Satan, or Lucifer, was the creator of "sin" and has been sinning since the beginning. Also according to the bible. This is a contradiction because the bible also states that God can not be in the presence of evil nor sin. If the word was true and good since the beginning and Satan was the creator of sin since the beginning how is it possible that he could have been in gods presence after said beginning in the book of job?

    2. In the Webster Collegiate Dictionary Satan is regarde as the tempter of man by the order of god. According to the thoughts in #1 above this would make more sense than believeing that Satan some dude who runs around to persuade man from the path of righteousness.

    3. The biggest problem with this is that it shows how in time MAN has changed the original wording of god. The reason this is so important is that it fits with the concept that the New Testament was written solely as a piece for the current times that it is specific to. This is why so many of the gospel writers are believed to have met Jesus and the actual gospels were written way after Jesus' time on earth. This is also backed by other eclyptic religions such as Islam and the Quaran. It talks about Jesus' in the Quaran, his miracle birth to mary, his life, however not his crucifixion nor his resurrection. This is important! It gives you a timeline that suggests that the muslims wrote the Quaran specifically based on the "christian" beliefs of Jesus and therefore proceded the time the Gospels were even written.

    4. The fact that you can not learn these details from circular logic Charles B, allow you to be succumbed by ignorance of what the truth really maybe. That is not a belittlement to you. I just think that you should go forth and actually start doing research about your faith outside of just the bible.

    @Epicurus- Your belittling comments of "christians" faith and religion are downright immature, silly and offensive even to those of us that don't share the same beliefs. THere is no reason to continue commenting if all you are going to do is mock, belittle and put those that are "christian" down!

  389. Charles B.

    Mr. Overy: I knew everything you said except the detail about Islam's account of Jesus and your non sequitor thereof. Today's my family day. I'll get back to you. Very good questions that should be answered the best I can later.


  390. Epicurus


    1. no i havent all been so "cold hearted" whatever that means...there is nothing cold hearted about telling people they have delusional beliefs that hurt society.

    ESPECIALLY when those people vote in mass numbers to get their way based on bronze age mythical stories. why they are too stupid to realize its all a story is beyond me. lets see how jesus treated this caananite woman that came to him for help:

    Matthew 15:22-26:

    A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

    It's actually worse than that. The word in the verse is a diminutive version of the word "dog" which makes it even more insulting. It's directly analogous to calling her a "little bi+ch."

    What it's helpful to remember is that there's good reason to believe that the historical Jesus did not feel his mission was to the whole world as his followers turned it into later. It seems very reasonable to me that he did feel his "mission" was primarily to his fellow Jews, who in Judaism are specifically "God's Chosen People."

    3. if you want to know about Jesus and the Pharisees check Luke 11:37-54. it is about jesus scolding the Pharisees for concerning themselves more with "the law" than with mercy and forgiveness....well i will refer you to my answer in number 2 and i will also ask where will gods mercy be over his laws if he is real and an atheist or homosexual goes to him?

    i know your stance on where these people go and in what scenario yet you didnt support any of those claims using scripture (even though using scripture to argue for god is no different than using the quran to argue for allah)

    oh and by the way...your post committed the fallacy of shifting the burden of im still laughing about me being cold hearted. i have never been described that way but im sure if i told an adult santa clause wasnt real i would be cold hearted also???? or maybe if i told them they werent a billionaire no matter how much they believed it?

  391. Epicurus

    @Overy, all of my posts are very well thought out and full of poignant points. if you are just going to look at the last one where i basically became fed up with charles because rather than even responding he just started ranting about how god loves him, then you are being disingenuous.

    and just because you say you arent meaning to belittle someone after you call them ignorant in their own belief you still belittle them.

    of course i agree with you if he doesnt realize christianity is a cult of judaism he is ignorant but dont insult him in one breath than tell me all my comments are rude.

  392. Charles B.

    Epic: Working on it now.
    Mr. Over: later. Thanks.

  393. Charles B.

    Part I

    Epicurus: OK. The Canaanite (Syrophenician) woman of Matthew 16:21-28 and Mark 7:24-30. I forgot about that one! One of my favorite stories, actually. The phrase "little bitch" has connotation of someone with a foul temper and we generally view that as "cursing" in English. I doubt it held the same meaning in Hebrew, but you're right, it meant "little dog." or "puppy." "Dog" was common reference to people who where outside the covenant of God with Israel by the Jews of that time. The actual Greek word "kunaria" is only found twice in the Bible (only this story in Matthew and Mark) and probably wasn't as racially as offensive as you suggest by "little bitch".

    Perhaps if Jesus were speaking today, He might have said, "It's not yet proper to give the bread intended for the sheep and give it to the pups of wolves."

    Nonetheless, if you are trying to paint Jesus as vial, cruel, or racist in some way, this isn't a good example as Mark 7:27-28 says: 27. "But Jesus said to her, "Let the children be filled first, for it is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs." 28, And she answered and said to Him, "Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs under the table eat from the children's crumbs." NKJV I checked any your NIV also has the word "first" in the Mark version.

    Jesus had limited time to fulfill his purpose; the Cross was quickly approaching and He was specifically sent to only the Jewish covenant people at that time. Matthew 28: 16-20 makes it very clear that this message is for "all the world" as those were also Jesus' words after the mission of the Cross was competed. It has always been God's intention for such. There are many passages that talk about Israel to be a light to the "Gentiles" (that's you and me, unless you're Jewish) and it's been part of the plan for a long long time.

  394. Charles B.

    Part II Canaanite Woman Continued:

    Epic: Nonetheless, if you are trying to paint Jesus as vial, cruel, or racist in some way, this isn't a good example as Mark 7:27-28 says: 27. "But Jesus said to her, "Let the children be filled first, for it is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the little dogs." 28, And she answered and said to Him, "Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs under the table eat from the children's crumbs." NKJV I checked any your NIV also has the word "first" in the Mark version.

    Jesus had limited time to fulfill his purpose; the Cross was quickly approaching and He was specifically sent to only the Jewish covenant people at that time. Matthew 28: 16-20 makes it very clear that this message is for "all the world" as those were also Jesus' words after the mission of the Cross was competed. It has always been God's intention for such. There are many passages that talk about Israel to be a light to the "Gentiles" (that's you and me, unless you're Jewish) and it's been part of the plan for a long long time.

    Non support of my arguments: I apologize for not including the references to my Scripture quotes. And you're right about not "supporting" my views with Scripture. It takes time to look them up, and list them, and some people just stop reading when they see the citations in the Bible, I would think. I'll try if you like for the important ones like I did above.

    I don't know how you would come across in person, but your comments don't sound very "cheerful" via the Internet. ;-)

    God's Mercy: That's a huge one and too much to cover here. If you have a sincere question there, I'll do the footwork and give you my thoughts on the matter. I might get into that with Charles Overy as I'm sure he would bring me back to the seeming "contradictions" of the Old and New Testament views of God and His mercy.

    I do have a spark of an idea however . . . God's mercy is "longsuffering" and patient while people are yet still breathing. He speaks and draws us over and over again at various times in our lives. However, when the veil of life is over, the judgment is set wherever your heart has fallen; grace for grace, and damnation for damnation. Perhaps it really is that simple.

  395. Charles B.

    Vlatko: Thank you for your patience with us. It was never my intention to be so "evangelist" here. I just try to be honest with what I believe and it just sorta happened when I gave my opinions. I ask for a little more grace and you have my sincere appreciation for your website. It's really quite good. It's all in the pursuit of knowledge, is it not?


    Charles B.

  396. Charles B.

    Ah! Sorry. Trying to hurry. I double posted and forgot to mention Jesus answered the woman's request fully at the end of the story. Haste makes waste. Sorry. Wife's been calling me for dinner and they've started without me.

  397. Joe_nyc

    Charles B

    "that I don’t understand the reasons behind that at all". Excellent! You made a first step towards the 'reasoning'. I knew my mom's story would get through to you. When I said "innocent bystanders" I didn't mean my mom. When you get a chance think about the real victims of religion, and not the obvious one. It will be quite enlightening.

    Angels and demons? It's rubbish. And I think you also concur, you just won't admit it. But my mom sincerely believes that I, her own son, am possessed by Satan and she prays daily for me. ;)


    When your mom breaks her hip bone be sure to give her the same rubbish advice.

  398. Achems Razor


    I am not trying to give Charles the gears. But Demons, etc: I knew he would think that.

    Anybody tell me, who was not afraid at times when young, of things that go bump in the night! Or even adults for that matter. (LOL)

    Let me tell you I certainly was, I actually think had night terrors of the most unimaginable kinds, I believe all that is conducive to a good imagination. Plain and simple.

    No-body is possessed Charles!

  399. Charles B.

    "Possessed" is an overused word, Mr. Razor. True possession is extremely and very very rare, but demonic work is quite common.

    Not every thing a child is scared of is demonic. But, an 11-year-old should be listened to carefully.

    Not being there personally, it's just all guess work.

    And I knew you wuuld comment on my post too. :-)

  400. Joe_nyc

    Charles, I gave you the benefit of the doubt..But get a hold of yourself. Angels and demons? C'mon!!!!!!!!!!
    So you also pretend to believe nephilims and unicorns and flying serpents.......???????????? Get a grip, man.........You are more than you claim to be!

  401. Charles B.

    Joe: Just read your comment. That was rude about my mom. I do have concern for your mother (and your son). I know you are not "possessed" by Satan, but you shouldn't be so certain it's all rubbish. If you should change your mind for any reason, then let me know and I will help the best I can with advice and prayer.


  402. Joe_nyc

    not at u but at oshonaire

  403. Charles B.

    Oh. Sorry. I thought "oshonaire" was a French word I didn't understand. Seriously. I'm really tired. Good night. I need to shut my mouth, so-to-speak for the night. :-)

    Thanks Vlatko! My wife wanted to listen to music all evening, so I read comments for the last 3 hours.

  404. Epicurus


    the story about jesus is still a racist prejudice story. and to say jesus had to cut corners because he was short on time is just mind blowing...the man is supposed to be god....just remember that. he can do ANYTHING. so why constricted by time?

    hell why send himself down to die on a cross for a symbolic story that never happened (original sin)? its just insane.

    and i cant understand how you, and adult, can believe in demons and possession or influence. that is NOT healthy. not a single psychiatrist would tell you that is normal thinking.

    yes jesus was not concerning himself with that woman until she basically begged him. its akin to a black man going to a doctor in the Jim Crow era and saying "yessum boss, i understand you are much better than me and i am nothing, can i get some help now"

    you seem to be making consistent excuses for this god. excuses that require your subjective thoughts and takes on certain scripture and ignoring others. like i said before, this greatly resembles a child who is making up a superhero. you keep adding stuff and trying to make it better and better yet its just getting more nonsensical and baseless without evidence.

    i just wish we had a hindu here or someone of another faith (Jewish would be great) so we could watch you two argue over the colour of your invisible friends.

    oh im sorry was that rude or snide? no more rude than holding the position that you know if there is a god or not and we dont. if anything is the height of arrogance it would be that.

  405. Hardy

    All I have to add is that I'm happy beyond measure that I haven't ever had to deal with fundamental believers in my life.

    Thank the flying spaghetti monster that I grew up and currently live in one of the most atheist (wikipedia says ~60%! Quite amazing), socially liberal, politically-left, eco-friendly, and open-minded cities on this planet: Berlin.

  406. Luke Wilson

    The God of the Bible is nuthing short of a dictator, ruling with an iron fist and showing absolutely no remorse whatsoever.. His aim is to divide conquer and watch the anarchy unfold - the bible reads like a whats what in a mafia organisation - you got your leader and his enforcers going out to do his biding. I mean cmon, really, they used to be soooo many Gods before and now we're meant to believe there is only one??? Why is one of his commandments not to worship other Gods????? Ehhh?? Lies the whole world has been duped into worshipping some blood hungry power thirsty hater of mankind!!! I choose not to believe in him or any other God for that matter. Yes I also choose not to believe in atheism or the big bang aswell - infact I have become soooo sceptical that i am having problems believing in just about anything, THAT INCLUDES THE PERSON STARING BACK AT ME IN THE MIRROR. F-CK them all, they are trying to sell me ideas sooooo hard, why?? what do they want in return. I choose to live in my place of ignorance. That is all.... OMG DOES THIS POST MEAN I GET TO GO TO HELL?? HAVE I SEALED MY FATE???

  407. Luke Wilson

    I have read on this posts, that some people claim to speak and know Jesus???? WHAT? Are they Nuts?? If you are hearing voices in your head, you need to go seek immediate medical help, I can assure you its not JESUS... You know what, I have come to realize that religious folk do serve a purpose in this world... Can you imagine a world with no religion or spirtuality. What would be left behind???? OMG I AM THINKING RICHARD DARWKINS AND HIS MINIONS.. And that in itself is hell... so aslong as religious folk are around then richard darwkins will be kept busy fighting them instead of us uninterested people who would be told yah ok its time to justify your existance because as we now know God doesnt exist and that means every religious idea and that includes 'Life is sacred' is out the window. Now for you to live in this world you must serve a measurable quantifiable purpose. No purpose = OUT!! Am sorry but thats how it goes.... And dont say this scientific folk wouldnt do such a thing, just look at the world... the one thing that religion doesnt really play a role in is economics.. and as we know as good as the world economy is, its a well oiled effective death machine, For those people that serve there purpose, they are rewarded the rest well the rest are left for dead.... That is 100% science at work. So for me religion and science might as well be 2-sides of the same coin. They bring nuthing but devastation.

  408. Hardy

    "the one thing that religion doesnt really play a role in is economics.."

    Har har.

  409. Luke Wilson

    Its true... I never heard an economist talk about God!! Atleast not in a proffesional sense.

  410. Paola

    To: Hardy

    You said:

    Hardy 04/10/2010 at 21:56

    “the one thing that religion doesnt really play a role in is economics..”

    Har har.

    I mean no disrespect but really? Have you not seen the $$$$ size of the Evangelical church just to point out the obvious one? Or have I misunderstood your comment?

  411. Achems Razor

    @ Hardy:

    I don't think it's worthy of comment. What do you think?

  412. charlesovery

    Economics is influenced by religion as well. Y do you think that chirches do not pay taxes?

  413. Hesus

    That doesn´t mean that religious organisations have no concept of economy. Monetary gain is one of their primary goal as money = power.
    oh and... question everything!

  414. Hardy

    @Archems: Haha! I was thinking the same thing. I almost had enough motivation to start writing, but... ehhh... Nevermind.

  415. Achems Razor

    I don't believe it! I hope I do not have to go through the whole Vatican wealth thing again!

    Who said that Churches pay taxes?? Show me one!

  416. Hardy

    @Paola: Yep, you misunderstood ;-) I quoted "Luke Wilson" and commented his statement with a fake laugh.

  417. Luke Wilson

    What economic policy do you know of that is based on a religious idea that might otherwise contradict logic or scientific fact? Tell me one and I will agree with what you are implying that somehow religion over-rides economics which as far as I know is based entirely on logic, science and rational assumptions eg. people will always seek to maximize there utility to name but one.

    It doesnt matter if churches do or do not pay taxes, that doesnt mean they somehow influence economic policy - they might benefit from economic policy, but that doesnt mean they influence it. Am just saying is all..

  418. Luke Wilson

    And anyways that is besides the point. My point is a world run with nuthing but rational people devoid of any religious or spiritual belief aka an atheist wont be any better than a world run by religiously fanatical people with no logic or rationale in there thought process. In my OPINION the 2 need to exist to keep both each other in-check. Its like the idea of a monopoly vs an oligopoly in a market. You dont want one firm having 100% of market share, why? It opens up the whole system to abuse by that 1 firm. You always want competition. Why? Competition inspires innovation and the consumer 'us' are better off in such a system as the firms will compete to win our favour by meeting our needs. So yes that is all I was saying as I noticed from reading these posts that its always Religion vs atheism and no one seems to be in the middle. Its either camp A or B. Well I just invented a camp C for myself.

    That is all.

    Thank you very much.

  419. Charles B.

    I'll read through all comments from the top tomorrow. Very confusing but interesting. I'll reply then.

  420. Paola

    @ Hardy:

    My apologies. That's what I get for not reading through all the mind numbing rhetoric and just catching onto what I saw you post.

    Please continue, I'll go back to minding my beeswax :o)

  421. Chlorophyll Eater

    Nothing is confusing. Religion should be a thing of the past. What competition? Religion is poison for the brain and it should be obliterated. The only competition religion faces is from another religions. They should all be wiped out so people can finally start thinking a little more for themselves, without the poisonous influence of myths and fairytales made up to feed the wise wolves who don't like to work for their food, but rather soft-talk people into submitting their hard earned money to them for absolutely nothing. They are just the ones who replaced the ancient druids, shamans and similar. It's past. get over it. Grow up.

  422. Charles B.

    Hardy: Dark days are comming for Europe especially. It's no time to be an Atheist anywhere, but especially Europe. Try 1% "born again" Christians is closer to the correct statistic for Western Europe. Nothing to "brag" about. :-(

    Luke Wilson: Headed for Hell? Yep. Most likely. You said it, not me. I'm just takin' your word for it. Camp wait and "C" is still no place to be!

    Epic and Mr. Overy: Give me time to wade through the sludge. I have a file for your comments so I can get back to them the best I can this week and not loose track of them.

    Chlorophyll Eater: Vegitarian are we? Hum. Or a cow. And a rather opinionated bovine at that!

    Paola: You said:

    I am not looking for an answer from the Bible, no verse, no sermon, no well meaning interpretations just in your gut honesty.

    For those who believe in God & the Bible but stand in judgement of others:

    - Upon the demise of your physical body, do you not stand before God in judgement?
    If yes
    1) Is God not the one who shall do ALL and the only judging?
    2) How, when & why has it become other mortal man’s right, civic duty, personal passion, religious following, vendetta, etc to stand in judgement of your brothers & sisters if God is supposed to take care of all that in his kingdom?

    1. No, He's not. Ultimate Judge, but not the ONLY judge.

    2. It would be horribly negligent of true Christians to do absolutely nothing while on Earth, for "judgement" and discernment is needed just to be a Christian (or Atheist for that matter). In fact, you're standing in judgement of ME, even as you read my post, aren't you? Well, aren't you? I thought so! I rest my case. A very stupid question.

    BBC: Have you nothing to say to Paola's "brilliant" question? C'mon, help me out there!

    Mr. Razor: Just felt like being rude to cranky, Atheistic, highly opinionated people tonight, but you haven't said anything stupid enough for a rude quip lately! You escape tonight, but you're on "probation"! ;-) JK of course.

  423. Paola

    @ Charles B

    You are quite rude calling my question stupid and goading others on to comment on it's "brilliance". I was not being rude and I didn't ask you for or pick a fight with you or anyone else. I simply asked a question because I wanted an honest answer. As I said, an answer from the heart and gut of the person who answered it not from a book. I was seeking a point of view, not an attack or a quarrel. And no, I was not going to judge the answer, I was keeping an open mind for someone else's point of view. Something you may want to consider. However, yes, I am judging you now because you chose to behave like arrant child and resort to name calling. Furthermore, I am judging you while NOT standing behind the Bible spewing that it's my religious right to do so.

    The fact that you had to stoop to attacking me (not to mention your attack on Chlorophyll Eater), or my question is answer enough for me about you.

    What I do find laughable is your shift towards me. On my first post you were all on board with what I had to say with a resounding Hail Mary & Hallelujah because you "interpreted" by post as supporting the church. Now you twist your evil little self to attack me because you "interpreted" my post as being against the church, never mind stupid. My posts were and remain neither pro or con church. What they are is adult inquiries which you are obviously not equipped to handle.

    Don't bother to respond to this, I have nothing else to say to you and I will not be reading additional posts as I am not interested in your further attacks or ignorance. There are places where adults can speak civilly without resorting to name calling and the childish like. I'll be there, but I'm sure you won't be able to find your way. Have a nice life in your ivory tower.

  424. Hardy

    @Paola: No harm done :-)

    @Charles B.: Don't worry about me, I'd not have it any other way. Living with open-minded, tolerant and educated people is the best life I can imagine.

    By the way - the ~20% christians here are basically all liberal ones. We actually have muslims and christians living alongside one another (same city) and NOT trying to kill each other! Imagine that!

  425. Luke Wilson

    Be an AGNOSTIC. You cant lose that way. If God really does exist then come judgement day atleast you'll say, well unlike those atheists I did not reject you, I just put you in the I shall wait and see basket, so instead of condeming me to an eternity of hell, lets say about 100000yrs will suffice, deal??? DEAL!! If on the other hand he doesnt exist and is somehow proven so, well it wont be that hard to you know become a fully fledged atheist unlike religious folk who will probably still continue believing in something that isnt there. It is a win - win strategy. Anyone want to join this lovely camp? we are few in number!!!

  426. Luke Wilson

    @ CHARLES B. I read you comment on europe and I can not believe your one of those ignorant americans that believe europe is the seat of evil and probably the place where the anti-christ will come from. Something that I have heard alot of americans say especially in hardcore christian end of days documentaries. And by the way seeing you are a christian do you believe in the book of reveletions? About jesus coming back and all that stuff or are you not that fanatical?? Please tell me your views on this issue.

  427. Hardy

    @Luke: You make agnosticism sound like the cheap excuse for not deciding what you believe, but it is in fact the most intelligent and mature answer you can give concerning this topic.

  428. Charles B.

    Hardy: Yes, I know that the 20% of Christian there are mostly "Liberal Christians" and that's why I stand by the 1% "born-again" Christian statisitc. Mere religious profession as a "Christian" does not a true Christian always make. Peace, yes. True faith, yes. Killing people, no. Non-Biblical tollerance of sin, and compormise, also no. Like I said, "Dark days are ahead for Europe!"

    Luke: You actually made me laugh! You certainly have a passion for the wait and "C" camp!

    Yes, of course I beleive in the book of Revelation and what it says. Every chapter, verse and letter, in fact.

    No, I don't believe the Antichrist will come from Europe, but will come from Turkey or more likely Syria. He will, however, most definately have most of Europe under his iron fist when the time comes--hense the "dark days" for Europe and not too far in the future, I do believe.

    If you have a more specific part of Revelation you don't understand, or a more specific question for me, then I will post an answer for you this week as I am able and have the time. I'd try to make it accurate but very breif. "In for a penny, in for a pound" I suppose.


  429. Charles B.

    Paola: You are commenting on a documentary called: "For the Bible Tells Me So," so obviously your first post was meant against "Bible-believing Christians" (which you tacitly admit in your post to me later). I was trying to be funny in my reply. Your meaning was very evident from the beginning, and I didn't miss it. How could you miss the bias against fundamentalist Christians in this?

    You said:

    “Let me tell you what IS an abomination:
    * A closed mind – especially combined with an open mouth.
    * Ignorance – particularly when combined with a lack of interest in becoming knowledgeable.
    * Hate – this includes homophobia, racism, sexism etc.
    * Intolerance.
    * Judgment & deciding that someones life is less valuable than your own.
    * Willfully causing physical, psychological or emotional harm to another person or animal not in self defense.”

    I replied:

    "I agree! But we can’t hold it against the non-believers; have a little grace. They haven’t met Jesus yet. "

    Cute, eah?

    Paola, you then posed a very hot-button topic question. It seemed like more of an accusation to me, and you were certainly showing your own personal agenda and bias in the question, and then binding anyone that would want to reply to you from using anything from the Bible. That's not really fair, is it? Even my grandmother could see through that one as being loaded for what it was: a jab against fundamentalist Christians. I'm Just keeping it honest, now.

    You don't care a wit about what I believe, as your response is a defense of your silly question, not, "Oh, really? Why do you believe that, Charles? That certainly wasn't the response I was expecting. Tell me more, and feel free to use the Bible is you want to."

    As far as "Chlorophyll Eater" she was rude to me when I said that so many comments were confusing and I had to sort them out later. She was rude to me for no reason. She replied:

    "Nothing is confusing. Religion should be a thing of the past. What competition? Religion is poison for the brain and it should be obliterated. The only competition religion faces is from another religions. They should all be wiped out so people can finally start thinking a little more for themselves, without the poisonous influence of myths and fairy tales made up to feed the wise wolves who don’t like to work for their food, but rather soft-talk people into submitting their hard earned money to them for absolutely nothing. They are just the ones who replaced the ancient druids, shamans and similar. It’s past. get over it. Grow up."

    Blah blah blah. She called religious people (like me) a "wolf," so why can't I call her a cow?

    She is referring her comment directly to MINE, telling me to "grow up" and says she wants to obliterate "Religion" (with a capital R) and says that faith (my faith) is "poisonous" and a "myth" and we are "wolves." Then you get upset because I make fun of her pen name?!? Why didn't you say, "Chlo, that was really very rude. Charles is right and you are a cow!"? Hum. Why? Because you are not who you say you are; you're not really that open-minded and in the middle, you didn't ask a sincere question and you're firmly planted on the left of center.

    Paola, If by chance you are sincere when you said:

    " I was not being rude and I didn’t ask you for or pick a fight with you or anyone else. I simply asked a question because I wanted an honest answer, " then don't bridle my answers with qualifications, and don't overreact to my post when your posts are also a bit rude in my opinion. I was just answering your loaded question and giving my honest opinion on the merit of the question asked.

    Lastly, I've called your question "stupid," but you have personally called me "evil." My remark is an assessment of your question and your motive, but your remark is an attack on my very person. If you don't want an honest answer to your question and an honest assessment of the question itself, then don't ask. And all the while degrading the Book I hold to be sacred in the process, nonetheless!

    Paola, OK, from my heart now: Of course God is the ultimate judge. Granted. But it's not reasonable to try and force people of faith into your "box" of what you think is or is not being "judgmental" toward others. I doubt you feel even half as insulted as I quite often feel here on this thread alone.

    Peace to you and Good day. Sincerely.

    Charles B.

  430. Charles B.

    Vlatko: Sorry for being so off topic (of homosexuality in the church) sometimes, but this doc is called "For The Bible Tells Me So" and for that reason, I want to actually support what the Bible does say the best I can. Ya gotta know with a title like that you'll draw both sides with both sleeves rolled up for a brawl! Nonetheless, thank you again for your grace in allowing us to banter back and forth as much as we do. You are appreciated. You really do have a top-notch website. Thanks alot!


    Charles B.

  431. Luke Wilson

    @ Charles B: I have acouple of questios for you. I'll try and be as precise as I can.

    1. According to you and in this case you are representing the christian religous view, is christianity the only way to salvation(Heaven) or can hindus atheists buddists etc make it?

    2. Why Turkey or Syria? What makes you choose this 2 locations as the birth place of the anti-christ??

    3. How do you rationalize your blind faith? How can you dupe your mind into believing in something that could well be utter lies... how can you be sooo blind?? And lets be honest you dont know nor do you speak to God/Jesus because that is impossible. All you know is what you pastor told you from when you first went to church....

    4. If christianity is sooo righteous and the true path to salvation then why has it mostly been spread by conquest death and destruction amongst innocent ppl who didnt want to do anything with it e.g. the mayans and incas were almost wiped out and christianity was used as an excuse; So goes to many indegenous people in this world! The vatican has a history of violence, sexual abuse and corruption and this is meant to be God's representers on this world. Why would God let such ppl represent him? Even other denominations of this religion has similar history. Surely this alone should be a strong indicator that there is something wrong with this religion and its God.. Why cant you see this? What excuses have you made to turn a blind eye and justify all this wrong doings?

  432. Charles B.

    Luke: Let me think about whether or not to answer your questions. They're worded extremely rudely and I'm tired of dealing with the rudeness in general.

    My queston to you is: "Are your questions worth depriving even 30 minutes of my wonderful children of my time to answer?" What do you think?

  433. Charles B.

    That's a sincere question to you, Luke, by they way.

  434. Luke Wilson

    Haha my intention was not to be rude, I wanted to be as direct as I possibly could be - reason being I want to get a genuine response and am also very curious to hear your answers. And yes I think they are worth your time. People dont like there believes challenged or probed and I guess by doing that I could be passived as being rude....

  435. Epicurus

    LOL i cant believe you would openly tell people you believe revelation word for word....that takes a special kind of insane.

    listen. you think the world consists of demons, angels, devils, god(s), and magic wars between heaven and hell. you live in a complete fantasy world.

    revelation was written by a CRIMINAL who was sent to an island that was covered in hallucinogenic mushrooms....and you read revelation and think "yes of course! this is completely real!"

    thats amazing...just amazing.

    Revelation 4
    4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
    4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
    4:7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
    4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

    LOL utter madness. this is pure insane ramblings of a mad man. im not saying this insultingly. im saying this because you seriously need help ESPECIALLY if you teach your children this nonsense.

  436. Achems Razor

    Oh...I don't know about that!

    To me the passages you are referring to are about a spaceship!
    Same as passages in.

    Ezekiel: 1:4...1:5...1:20...13:21.
    Revelation: 5:6. And many more, even some in the Quaran.

    So could be some truth about revelations, but not the kind religee's expect!! "Beam me up Scotty"

  437. Epicurus

    no is not about a space are inferring your own interests onto the story.

    it is the ramblings of a religious mad man induced by isolation and hallucinogenic drugs (Amanita Muscaria)

  438. Achems Razor

    @ Epicurus:

    Well yes, (Amanita Muscaria) won't disagree with you there.

    I have brought up Religious epiphanies by same on so many posts it is getting redundant.

    Yes my own interests, and might add many others, about space visitations in Bible.

    I say it is about a space ship, unless you know for sure it is not!
    Tell me than, what you think the passages "might" represent!

  439. Vlatko

    Don't worry @Charles B. It is not a big deal.

  440. Epicurus

    i cant know for sure its not but what you are saying is just as valid as me saying " i think its talking about leprechauns that came down on unicorns"

    there is no evidence for either and it would be absolutely silly to take the position of either.

    also as your name sake you should apply Occam's Razor. you are adding more things into the story that they themselves require a great deal of evidence that is not supported by the story.

    also like another poster has said. i highly doubt a species with the intelligence to travel thousands and thousands of light years would lack light cloaking abilities....even we have discovered how to cloak from microwaves, and not too far from light wave cloaking so to think these aliens would be so ill-prepared just blows me away.

    not even scientists today would make themselves known to the group being studied if they wanted reliable results

    what i think it represents is nothing more than John the apostle's hallucinogenic induced ramblings about his preheld superstitious beliefs.

    to read revelation and think it is anything more than that is just forcing your own interests and views into something so nonsensical and vague that anyone can say its any number of stupid things.

    to believe revelation is like believing Noah's ark happened, or that people back then lived to 900 and there were giants. its just stupid.

  441. Joe_nyc

    Don't forget the Book of Enoch..hmmm what am I saying. I shouldn't encourage you guys. We have digressed so much from the doc even I have hard time following who is who and what is being said. Maybe it's time to close the thread. Besides, I am beginning to feel sorry for Charles. There is so much a religee can take. No?

  442. Epicurus

    im pretty sure vlatko loves the fact that we have these exchanges of ideas as long as we arent telling each other to die or sending death threats. this is an exchange of ideas or ideals (albeit a very passionate one but that makes for the best kind). the person who would dedicate their free time to making a site like this im sure would love to see his creation be a forum for intelligent discussion.

    intelligent discussion doesnt always have to consist of academic language. this place is great because it brings people of every idea possible together and gives them the option to discuss. its wonderful and i for one wish i had the knowhow and drive to do something so wonderful for basically no monetary gain.

  443. Achems Razor

    Well said, @ Epicurus:

    This is the best site ever for doc's. and exchange of ideas.

    Not to give Vlatko a swell head, but it is great he has enough vision to offer this great site! It is a great learning experience! I do want to thank you!

    And to Charles, he has a lot of courage to continue on with us heathens.

  444. Achems Razor

    @ Epicurus:

    That is all that I wanted to hear you say. is that You can't know for sure that it is not.
    The same goes for me!

  445. Eddie (savedbygrace)

    OK. I'm ready to tell my story now. Please listen to me. I cannot speak from science, and I cannot argue from theoretics, but I can tell MY story. I'm from a large family that grew up in church. I had a fantastic childhood apart from my parents splitting up when I was in elementary school like millions of other kids and except for a neighbor that molested me when I was quite young like thousands of other kids.

    With that said the two defining things of my early life was one, the fact that I was/am a christian believer from and early age, and two, the fact that I struggles with homosexuality through my teens and 20's especially, all the while attending a fundamentalist church.

    You may ask, "What's you're story, Eddie? Do you feel this documentary reflects your life accurately?" My answer is "No. It doesn't." Where I fully understand the conflict these people feel with feeling "gay" in a religious family, I whole-heatedly disagree with the conclusion of this documentary that the best solution is acceptance of the one in that lifestyle by their christian family.

    If you read my first posts then you can understand some of the deeper issues I had to face such as nightmares, fear of AIDS, shame, etc. I can assure you that homosexuality is very demonically influenced and I didn't start getting better until after I had a deliverance session or two on the professional level. Even then, the healing was gradual after that, with mostly the horrible horrible nightmares diminishing. I've read how much you people do not believe in them, but they are real. Most of you are truly great fools in my opinion.

    I am married now, and I'm 10 years delivered. I talked to my wife about what I had done before we got married. Do I still have temptation in that area? Yes, and might always have, but much less than before.

    So what am I really trying to say? I'm saying that God is real, you can feel him and he has a different spirit than homosexuality. I've traded fear for faith and shame for grace. He is calm, peaceful, caring. I have felt nothing like him outside of trust in him. Lust burns holes in your soul but faith heals.

    BBC was right, I think, when he said that it doesn't matter if you grow up in church or not, the homosexual still feels the guilt. Do not let this documentary lie to you. There is another option and that option is life and not death by faith in God. My story is just as valid as the stories in this documentary but with a much better ending. I am saved by grace.

  446. Achems Razor

    Good story, Eddie.

    Wish you the best!

  447. Charles B.

    To all: not in the mood today to get back to your questions, but I might if I can get rid of my headache later. Got "files" for the comments. LOL!

    Eddie: Mr. Razor said it well enough!

  448. Epicurus


    Your post gave me chills. Attributing terrible nightmares to homosexuality and possible demonic possession? Given the overall fear & loathing of homosexuals that still exists in our society and widely espoused by the major religions, I must wonder about the true source of your former nightmares. After all, you likely would have internalized most of that fear and hatred well before your sexual orientation had begun to make itself known to you. I don’t think your fears were based on disease and sin, but the realization that you were in danger of being rejected by your family and friends. The fact you admit to having lived the life only in secret sheds light on the kind of psychological torment you were enduring. “Salvation through Christ” seems to me to be a poor substitute for clinical therapy, which may have allowed you to work through your fears and urges in a real and honest way. I can only hope you were upfront with your current spouse regarding your “former” homosexuality. If not, its horribly unfair.

    by Mr. Balls.

  449. Epicurus

    about the last part of the post.

    apparently you were upfront with your partner and that is good.

    Its just a shame that your christian family indoctrinated this kind of thinking in you.

    if you didnt grow up with people like that you wouldnt have those nightmares and terrible fears.

    ps. you should be JUST as afraid of AIDS or any sexually transmitted disease even if you are heterosexual. its not gay only.

    but whatever. you think im a fool. you can live in that kind of hell if you want. but if you ask me you should seek PROFESSIONAL help...not church help.

  450. Hardy

    One of my best friends is gay and I hadn't noticed for about 7 years. Me and some other friends had an honest talk with him about his homosexuality - asking the basic questions. He told us that he couldn't remember a time when interested in girls, he never thought differently about it. Today he is living in a relationship and I have met quite a lot of his close (gay) friends, all were very open-minded and, most of all, happy people! I get along with them all very well, especially on my friends notorious new-years parties.

    Why am I telling this story?

    Quite simple, because I want to show how homosexuals live their lives WITHOUT the church. I can assure you, none of these people have ever thought twice about their sexuality, and their parents have never looked negatively upon it as well. If a person has a trait for that your whole community may hate you, it is logical that this individual is going to have nightmares.

    In any case, I wanted to make clear that homosexuality is not a 'demonic possession' of which people must be healed. It is a natural (Granted - not normal. But what's 'normal', anyways) occurrence and is harmful to the individual when suppressed - this is a fact, no matter how much the religees try to deny it.

    This was not directed at Eddie - I'm not trying to 'convince' him of anything. It's simply the attempt to show how people live their lives in a perfectly normal way when they are not condemned for something they have no influence on.

  451. Charles B.

    Hardy: You didn't know your friend was gay for 7 years? I suppose that's quite possible. However, you don't know how people truly feel deep down in their hearts. If I felt guilty on any level about my personal life choices, I most likely would never consult my non-religious friends about that particular emotion. They might not be as happy as you think.

  452. page

    I thought it was interesting that this documentary focused on christianity when many religions teach the sin of homosexuality. I don't think homosexuality is about religion at all. I think it's about psychology and evolution. In most species, evolution supports male and female sex for procreation. That's what nature intended. But, nature also intends diversity in nature. Not everyone has blue eyes, or brown skin. These are not defects, they are simply diversity in nature. I'm sure many of you anti-gay positioned persons would say, "Sure, but homosexuals can procreate." This is not true. I know many gay men and women who have had children through straight sex. It's not as if their sex organs don't work. This is why homosexuality is not a defect, it's diversity in nature. Being born deaf or blind is a defect and it certainly doesn't make the person less of a human being and neither are gay people.

    It was nice to see persons of religion use a rational approach to the interpretation of the Bible. However, religion and faith is something that baffles me. To believe in the christian God you must make assumptions based in faith. For example....God has always existed and in an almost un-measurably small period of time his creation instantly evolved into thousands of cultures and religions with only a few believing in the "God" of the Holly Bible. And, in another almost un-measurably small period of time God will judge the people of his creation based upon their ability to offer praise, be obedient, and worship him/her/it. If you are not captured in his grace he will send you to hell to burn for all eternity. Doesn't this seem like very trivial behavior from the being that was supposed to create the infinitely complex and mysterious universe?

    If the universe was created by God, then God must have been created. But, by whom? If God always existed, then the universe could equally have always existed and would have no needed for a creator. Evolution and society will always judge outliers harshly. The fact of the matter is that homosexuals are not 2 standard deviations from the norm and are not outliers. There are good and bad straights, and good and bad gays. Let's start judging people by their character and not their sexuality.

  453. BTU

    Morgan, since you probably wont ever get it then let me put it to you this way:
    When youre the loner here in the commenting, with your outrageous, ludicrous and insane IMMORAL beliefs, then you my friend, Have LOST this battle, and will continue to loose because you are wrong. Why cant you see that?
    If you believe in God, and the teachings of the bible then you have already sinned an innumerable amount of times just by your comments on here.
    Seek Help.

  454. Imaginary Fiend

    466 comments so far. I'm amazed. I didn't think homosexuality was still thought of so controversially. In some truly backwards and riligiously hadicapped cultures I can see it hanging on, but how can this be so in so called "advanced" or "developed" nations? Being lucky enough to live in a progressive, enlightened society it seems odd to me that so many still are hung up on sexual orientation. I work with and am friends with many who are gay and it just seems a matter of fact part of their individual identities. How some of these religionists twist and distort things is an ongoing, sad, sad tale. Such thinking is so regressive, devisive, destructive and unjustifiable. How is humanity to ever overcome such thinking. Sad and frustrating.

  455. Hardy

    @Imaginary Fiend: Truly frustrating indeed. Before I found this site, I couldn't even imagine some of the opinions that people have.

  456. amy

    firstly i really enjoyed this doc and posted it on the facbok for the religious people i know. it was refreshing to see christians using their critical thinking skills.

    on a side note now that i have been on here a bit i find it fascinating that every quasi-religious topic doco ends up sparking a discussion about the existence of the christian god.
    for me watching this was really about journeying along with christians as they struggled to reconcile the teachings of their faith, erroneous and/or misinterpreted as they may be, with their love for their children.
    i am surprised that no christians have posted any thoughtful responses to these parents journeys. did not the doco raise any questions for you about the dogma of your faith in regards to sexuality?
    how come you did not sit and think about the issue of context, historical and otherwise in regards to the verses that talk about sexuality?
    why can't there be a discussion about whether or not the issue of context is valid thing to ponder within the context of your faith's dogma?
    since james dobson and many of the other popular christian leaders are not biblical prophets do you not have a responsibility to investigate the bible for yourself and draw your own conclusions based on your personal relationship with your god regarding hatred towards gltb people?
    vitriolic hatred of queers is not the best representation of your belief system if you are going to argue the existence of your god with a bunch of intellectual internet posters. stick to the basic issue boys.

    i challenge so-called christians that watch this to make a reasoned and thoughtful discussion of why they would disagree with the premise that christianity's hatred of queers is a social prejudice and belief that is not necessarily valid in a biblical sense. if bible verses about shrimp and cotton-poly blends and slavery are taken in context as no longer relevant then i postulate that the bible verses that address same sex relationships be looked at in the same manner, as outdated.

  457. Ninja Delusion

    If you want to justify homosexuality, then you can attempt just that. What you cannot do successfully is say that the Bible condones it--Including the "New Testament". I'm just the messenger:

    Evidence 1: Leviticus 18:22 (Established in OT)

    Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

    The way one would lie with a woman is contrasted to the "abomination" of doing the same with another man. Spinning rhetoric doesn't change the simple fact of it. You should note that this same section covers incest, beastiality, and other such perversions. Is your mind so open to practitioners of those :lifestyles"? Can you expect embracing arms when you can't embrace that which you and society both deem as wrong?

    Evidence 2: Romans 1:21-32 NEW TESTAMENT

    Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

    Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

    And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

    Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

    Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents

    Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

    Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    Evidence 3: 1 Corinthians 6:9 NEW TESTAMENT

    Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind

    "abusers of themselves with mankind" is clear if you aren't trying to change the text to suit yourself.

    The word translated as this phrase is:

    one who lies with a male as with a female, sodomite, homosexual

    The word rendered "effeminate" is:

    1) soft, soft to the touch

    2) metaph. in a bad sense

    a) effeminate

    1) of a catamite

    2) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man

    3) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness

    4) of a male prostitute

    The word "fornication" which is rendered in the noun form in this verse is:

    1) a man who prostitutes his body to another's lust for hire

    2) a male prostitute

    3) a man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator

    This would include heterosexual offenders as well.

    Evidence 4: Acts 21:25 NEW TESTAMENT

    As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

    Word rendered fornication:

    1) illicit sexual intercourse

    a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.

    b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18

    c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12

    2) metaph. the worship of idols

    a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols

    This also covers heterosexual sin. You should also note that this particular verse is concerning Gentile converts (Non Jewish Christians) in respects to keeping the whole Law of Moses. This is why the "But nobody keeps Leviticus" argument fails on this point. It can also easily be argued that since Man and Woman were created one for another, that this decree predates the Law of Moses as a universally binding law no different than that set by Cain when he slew Abel or that of a common thief. Just because it's written in the Law doesnt mean its origin or exclusivity is of the Law of Moses. And YES: Christians should be keeping the other 4 laws in Acts 21 as well as the general precept to love God and one another so that they might obey all 'universal' laws by proxy.

    Evidence 5: Genesis 19

    The story of Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction I saved it for last because I know its easy to play the ignorance card in the 21st century. Im sure you know about the destruction of the cities on the plain and will only argue that the REASON behind it was 'inhospitality' or some other common age lie.

    And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.


    And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.


    Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

    Ok, the euphemism "That we may KNOW them" is to "know" in a sexual sense. They wanted to KNOW them. Furthermore, if you read the previous chapter, the angels were sent there to destroy the city by God in ADVANCE because of the "evil" which those cities committed. Abraham had to plead with God to spare the city for postponement based off the premise that ONE righteous man could be found within its gates. (Lot)

    Also notice that Lot offered his two daughters which had not KNOWN a man in place of the Angels.

    Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

    If you read in the New Testament, in Matthew 1: Mary contends with the angel Gabriel over news of her pregnancy saying "How can this be for I have not KNOWN a man".

    There is your proof. If you are honest you will concede in your heart that THIS is what the Bible says: Whether or not you will accept the Bible itself; at least accept what is says for what it says.

    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
    2 Timothy 4:3-4

    "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." (Colossians 2:8)

  458. Ninja Delusion

    I was also going to touch on the issue of "morality" being void without a supreme definer as well as necrophilia beastaility incest and so on, but that was obviously done to the typical hypocritical rejection of that very sound argument.

  459. Reb

    David and Jonathan had a long homosexual affair and the 'christians' almost worship him. They totally deny the obvious verses dealing with this issue even though Jonathan's father King Saul makes it clear he knows what is going on. Saul tells his son he has chosen David to his own confusion and to the shame of his mother. David and Jonathan spend a night in the woods wrapped in each others arms crying. David says that the love of Jonathan surpassed that of a woman. Yet the holy dingleberries refuse to even read this account. David was bisexual and all of his female wives were stolen from other men. What a hero, but in the twilight zone of christianity what else is new.

  460. Ninja Delusion

    Yes, typical twisting of the scriptures to support one's view.

    1. If David was a homosexual, it was reported in a HISTORICAL book of the Bible, not the Torah. Historical as in a NARRATIVE account of David's conduct. David was also as you so disgustingly twisted by the words "All of his wives" did arrange for the death of ONE of his wives' husband.

    Notice how the account of this arranged murder was also recorded. Are you going to be consistent and say that the Bible sanctifies murder in order to gain a lover you lust after because David did it?

    The Bible makes it clear that sodomy is a SIN and is not excusable. (It can be repented of but you can't justify it)The overwhelming evidence for this is in my previous post for anyone with honest intent. The Bible also says that in all the days of David's life he was SINLESS except in his dealings with Bathsheba.

    1st Kings 15:5

    Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

    So Torah forbidding sodomy + 1st Kings declaring David blameless except in one offense = logical contingency that your twisted and forced interpretation is W-R-O-N-G. Perhaps you should take up study in the Hebrew language and Hebrew scriptures before you make foolish comments on what the Bible says concerning the love between two men. At least use a concordance and you also forget that 21st century western custom and ideology, and society is NOT AT ALL like that of the 1st century Israel or the Israel of 3,000 years ago or 4,000 years ago.

    1 Samuel 18:1-3
    Now it came about when he had finished speaking to Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as himself. And Saul took him that day and did not let him return to his father's house. Then Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself.

    Jonathan also makes a covenant with David:

    1 Samuel 20:16-17
    So Jonathan made a covenant with the house of David, saying, "May the LORD require it at the hands of David's enemies." And Jonathan made David vow again because of his love for him, because he loved him as he loved his own life.

    Sounds a lot like Jesus command to "Love one another as yourself." Hmmm Gee I wonder how ready you are to pervert that too.

    And later, when Jonathan is killed, David laments his loss with these words:

    2 Samuel 1:25-26
    “How have the mighty fallen in the midst of the battle! Jonathan is slain on your high places. I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; You have been very pleasant to me. Your love to me was more wonderful than the love of women.”

    Two Hebrew words are used here to describe the emotion of LOVE in these passages. The first is 'ahab (aw-hab') or 'aheb (aw-habe'), and it can definitely be used to describe a sexual relationship between a man and a wife. The second word is 'ahabah (a-hab-aw), and this two can be used to describe a similar marital love. But in the 247 times that these words are used to describe love in the Old Testament, far less than 20% of the time are they actually used to describe the love between two sexual partners. Far more often, (over 4 to 1) the words are used to describe the love between friends or between God and his creation. Here are just a few examples:

    Genesis 27:8-9
    Now therefore, my son, listen to me as I command you. Go now to the flock and bring me two choice kids from there, that I may prepare them as a savory dish for your father, such as he loves.

    Genesis 37:3
    Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his sons, because he was the son of his old age; and he made him a varicolored tunic.

    Deuteronomy 11:1
    You shall therefore love the LORD your God, and always keep His charge, His statutes, His ordinances, and His commandments.

    1 Samuel 18:16
    But all Israel and Judah loved David, and he went out and came in before them.

    1 Kings 10:9
    Blessed be the LORD your God who delighted in you to set you on the throne of Israel; because the LORD loved Israel forever, therefore He made you king, to do justice and righteousness."

    Jeremiah 31:3
    The LORD appeared to him from afar, saying, “I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness.”

    Micah 6:8
    He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

  461. Reb


    You are the one who knows absolutely NOTHING except how to cut and paste. The bible is what it is. It is a book of hate, bloodshed, filth and cruelty. It can be used to justify anything and history proves that fact beyond dispute. The list of pedophile rabbis is now endless and it is not little girls they target but boys. They are making the RC priests look better each day.

    Bathsheba was not the only woman whose husband was done away with by David in order for him to take another wife. You need to read the book you pound on. Jesus loved naked young men and was a homosexual. From now on just post the links to your 'material' and we can go there instead of getting it second hand from you.

    The OT god was a slobbering perverted insane killing machine and those who follow that mongrel are loonies.

  462. Epicurean_Logic

    Hi Reb, do you have a link for the 5 authors of the OT?, you know the one J,E,P... The wiki link is very weak and although i read a really good version about 2 years ago i just cant seem to locate it. Thanks.

  463. Reb


    The doc that Vlatko has here Who Wrote the Bible is excellent on that topic. I do have, somewhere, in my computer docs a well written work on the j,p,e, and d writers. I will do a seach for it asap. I forgot what I named it, duh.

  464. Hardy

    @Reb, you should really check out the youtube account 'pleaseconvinceme' for a good laugh.

  465. Hardy

    Okay, just watched a few videos of his. I stand corrected: EVERYBODY should check out that channel for a good laugh. Or for some brain exercise. You can disprove 90% of his arguments without much thought-effort while watching the video.

  466. Reb


    Thanks and I will do that a little later tonight. Apparently this ninja must be having issues about his/her sexual identity to go on such a rip tearing frenzy. Personaly, I have no opinion on the gay issue at all. I hardly trust the bible for my views and it does present David as having such an affair with Jonathan. What adults do in their homes is none of my business and wishing someone to burst hell open because others take the holy babble as the word of god instead the word of a devil is sickening. Wishing such atrocities on another human is far worse than living a lifestyle that is not the accepted norm for the bible thumping lunatics.

    Look how much depravity has come from the christian world in the past ten years. Look how much is presented in the OT that was ordered by their demon god! Most of it has been directed at helpless children and women but these morons stay on their high soapboxes over things that law abiding citizens do in their private homes. I think many of them 'protest way too much'. I would never teach my children to hate another person for any reason. There is not one person on this planet that has the right to judge another and I don't give a rats rear end what holy book they adhere to. Their relentless preaching and condemning is far worse in my opinion.

  467. Reb


    I checked out the youtube vids on pleaseconvinceme and it was just ridiculous. It is one of the most childish ones I have seen. What hypocrites. You do know that divorce among so-called christians is much higher than other members of society. It is even worse in the bible belt. Even though the bible condemns divorce, except in the case of adultery, these folks don't seem to fear any holy retribution. They don't seem to care how it affects the children either. The family that prays together stays together??? I think NOT.

    Almost all the religious nutjob parents who kill their children claimed god told them to. Atheists are not the ones doing that. Apparently, people who don't spend their lives trying to please the invisable god and use their time here to love, nurture and enjoy their families will have a much brighter future and happiness in the present.

    You know, religious zanies need to clean up around their own dirty door before they preach to the rest of the world.

  468. Charles B.

    Reb: "You know, religious zanies need to clean up around their own dirty door before they preach to the rest of the world."

    You're right, much to our shame.

    "Almost all the religious nutjob parents who kill their children claimed god told them to. Atheists are not the ones doing that."

    I disagree about the child killers however. Abortions (killing your own child) are performed by the coutless millions, and you can't blame that on the religious.

  469. Hardy

    Oh please, not an abortion-discussion!

  470. Reb


    I could give you countless verses in your bible where YOUR god commanded the nasty chosen to not only kill the adults and children of their enemies but to rip open the bellies of the pregnant women or hack them to pieces. That is how 'precious' a babies life is in the world of biblegod. It only becomes an issue when it is a hebrew woman who is injured and loses a child. The rest of the world does not matter to them or their god.

    There are millions of abortions in this nation each year and as I have said before, as long as that continues I will continue to state that 'christianity' has no power for good or that would not be legal in a 'christian' nation! What outright hypocrisy!

    Christians get abortions at the same rate or even higher than non-believers and that is a fact. I don't blame religions for anything. I blame the mindless sheep that follow these deadly destructive creeds.

  471. Charles B.

    Are you guessing at the abortion rate among "Christians" Reb? Murder in my opinion would preclude any form of Godliness. Hypocrites will eventually all get their just rewards if they don't repent of their murderous actions.

    What verses are you referring to so I can look them up? Briefly, please. Conversing with you is like "mind rape," you are so vile. Why do you hate Christians so much? Don't you ever get tired of calling black "white" and white "black"?

    Oh, I was going to ask you: "Is there anything good in the universe? What is it? Who is this 'deity' you believe in if you are a deist? Characteristics? Nature? Relation to mankind?" Just curious.

  472. Reb


    ("Conversing with you is like "mind rape," you are so vile.")

    You never fail to show your true ugly side of pious hypocritical judgment with your twisted misguided holier than thou attitude. You would fit right in with the Westboro gang. The holy babble is your book you do the work yourself and this is our last conversation you little maggot.

  473. Charles B.

    You're lovely self as usual, eah, Reb? I agree. Let's leave each other alone if we can. You obviously never read my comments on the West Borough Baptist Church. I've never met anyone so vile as you are verbally (or on-line at least). You have no sense of humanity, nor a person's character. You have my pity as well as my revolt at all the hate you stand for. You truly do call evil good and good evil. Wow. You're a Bible prophecy fulfilled. Surely these must be the last days. I can't even bring myself to bid you "peace" and that says a lot about how vile you are in my eyes.


  474. Hardy


    'Is there anything good in the universe? What is it? Who is this ‘deity’ you believe in if you are a deist? Characteristics? Nature? Relation to mankind?'

    (I would like to answer this question)

    I can look at the vastness of the universe, at the beauty of the stars and planetary objects and at the mind-boggling awesomeness of life and see that as reason enough to be alive and a part of it - no need for a creator there.

    Also, I believe the development of the consciousness within life is something very special that is worth conserving. I'd find it sad that the most developed being on this planet dies out because of it's own stupidity.

    And lastly, I want to know stuff. I wan't to try to explain this universe I live in, learn it's mechanics and hidden information - it's so damn fascinating that that would be a second reason for existence apart from the other two I have mentioned above.

    I could explain the reason why we have the concepts of 'purpose' and 'good' and why 'eternal life' is a horrible wish to have. If you'd like, I will explain my views on those two, also.

  475. Charles B.

    Ok. Well said. I'd like to hear them. What IS our "purpose"? But not tonight. I wonder if you and Razor have noticed the new Hawking doc on "aliens"? Exciting stuff FOR TOMORROW!

    Good night.

  476. Achems Razor

    @ Charles B:

    I am saying this without malice, but do you even read the OT. or do you just read the cherry picked editions? That suit your fancy.

    Even I, a novice can find you all the "gems" in the "bibles" that @ Reb is referring to.

    You should give @ Reb, some credence, he does know what he is talking about, Charles.

    There is everything good in the Universe, Charles, the major one is consciousness trying to know itself. Just the joy of being alive, of living!

    Yes, have watched Hawking's Aliens, also time travel, 4th dimension stuff, some (Quantum). That bad word (Quantum) (LOL) is in there also. But will not go into Quantum stuff anymore, I myself get attacked almost as bad as the religee's do. (LOL)


  477. K.T

    The day religion monopolized morality humanity lost a lot.

  478. Reb

    @Achems, @K.T

    Thanks but you are talking to a brick wall. It is truly sad when those who claim to believe every word of any book yet have no clue what that book says. They only hear the gushy sunday school tales and never the genocide and infanticide that takes up at least one third of the OT. The rest is invested in ridiculous laws, punishments and false histories.

    If the President of this nation declared that since we are at war in Iraq he had decided to fight like the ancient hebrews and every living being including the unborn and nursing babies were to be brutally destroyed, anyone with half a brain would think he had gone mad! Even if he said these commands were from god himself we would be horrified and would realize for sure this man was insane. What if he decided the world would be able to view these senseless killings and the butchering of little children and babies presented on prime time? Do you know anyone who would like to see a grown fighting man dash an infant to pieces against a rock? Only an insane mind would even think such a thought. How long would it be before we would demand this man be locked away?

    Maybe he would even go into more detail and say that by the commands of god the pregnant women were to have their bellies ripped open. He might say all the helpless animals were to be butchered. He would also have to say that all the female virgins, both women and little girls were to be taken as spoils of the war and every man must receive at least two females each. What if he went on TV and said that when the slaughter was finished he would reward the fighting men with the plunder that once belonged to this nation they had destroyed?

    What if he decided to punish our military for disobedience by forcing them to kill and eat their own children because they were not serving the leader with joy and gladness of heart?! What if he said he did that to horrify them and prove he was the Commander in Chief? What if he announced he would also punish them by spreading their own feces on their faces and make them cook with their own feces? All these things can be found in the OT at the orders of Yahweh/Satan. These are just a small sample of the mind boggling brutalities that is found in that horrible book. What if this commander in chief told the soldiers to make sure they covered up their feces in the sand so this god wouldn't step in it at night while he walked around the camp?! I think they might decide to bury him in the sand and with good cause.

    How could the 'christian' world revolt against such a man when they revere and uphold the most violent mass murderers the world has known, presented by their own holy book and their 'god' coming in first place with over 32 million deaths in the OT alone? No wonder these people are so deranged. You can't worship evil and remain sane.

  479. Hardy


    Not looked much into this whole 'Quantum' thing, another part of my to-do-after-finals list...

    Bear with me and assume an evolutionarly standpoint for these explanations.

    Explanation of 'good and evil':

    Humans were faced with the problem of living with many other individuals on one piece of land. Now we have two options - either, an anarchistic society forms with no rules at all or a society with rules and regulations for each individual is created. Logic dictates that only a stable society will survive over time, which one of these two possibilities is stable? Obviously the non-anarchistic one.

    Other examples are animals living in societies. An animal doesn't 'think', it doesn't believe in a deity, nor does it have a set of written rules - but still, they don't savagely murder one another. If we accept that humans are animals like the rest (a rather exceptional animal, but an animal nonetheless), we must also accept that humans can have morals and rules without a creator.

    Disagree with the premise all you will, but you must agree the logic that follows this premise is valid. Therefore, a distinction between 'good and evil', or, in simpler terms 'yes and no' are a prerequisite for life in societies. Actions must be labeled with a 'yes' or 'no', otherwise the lack of rules would destroy the society (leading to extinction).

    Explanation of 'purpose':

    Okay, this is a tricky one.

    Evolution shows that many changes within a species come with a price. Bigger brains make it harder to give birth, stronger bodies are harder to sustain, small bodies are very vulnerable to force. There is a plus to each adaptation, but it comes with a price.

    If we now assume the new feature 'conciousness', it brings a clear benefit. An animal sees a plant - it doens't think about it, it simply eats it. A human sees a leaf - it asks itself where the damn thing came from! It recognizes it came from a seed, it plants the seed and makes lots of food for himself -> benefit.

    We have the clear benefit. But to what price? Humans ask 'why' so much, it would destroy them because of no obvious answer to 'why they exist'. There we have the drawback. And this is where religion comes in. Humans can benefit all they want from researching the purpose, origin and cause of things, but fill in the blanks they simply cannot answer with religion or an invisible deity.

    So what is my purpose? I don't have a clue. But I realize all answers including the supernatural are a cheap excuse to fill in blanks which we cannot yet answer.

    This is only a steppingstone to the next part of the evolutionary stairs - once we get rid of 'placeholders', we can investigate further. But for now, I'm comfterable not knowing why.

    Why is 'eternal life' horrible?:

    I want to use an analogy a christian used to explain this one. Lets see if I can keep it short.

    A christian said that for there to be such a thing as 'good', there MUST be something contrary ('evil'), otherwise the notion of something good has no worth at all! If everything is good, there is nothing good at all.

    This analogy is also applicable to the term 'existance'. If we exist today, and we exist for 80 years and our existance vanishes afterwards, everything is fine. If, however, we exist 80 years, and our soul then exists forever afterwards, nothing is fine. It NEVER ends. Keeping a concious being concious for ALL ETERNITY would be the worst of punishments - in hell or heaven. Existance would lose all it's value if it were to be eternal. Apply this to the existance of the 'soul' or the body. It's the same outcome.

    Anyways, the temporary nature of ALL things is a basic principle of the universe. Tell me one single structure that will persist forever and I'll give you a million dollars :-)

    This was quite a bit more than I wanted to write, but I hope I made my points at least vaguely clear.

  480. Hardy

    Woops, what a block of text. I hope everyone that tries to read it may get through without brain-damage :-D

  481. Nada

    @ Hardy - I'm adding you to my list of heroes. :)

    I can sleep at night knowing that if any of my children were to tell me they were gay, I would be supportive and continue to love them. Unconditional love - THAT is morality!

    Nada ~ proud atheist

  482. D-K

    Hardy: You and I think alike, I had a thread on a forum discussing the exact same points you state, as well as delving into their implications in respects to specific social structures of elongated periods of time.

    It's funny how non-religious people often come to the same logical conclusions, while religious people seem so devided, both within as well as outside of their own specific religion.

  483. Eloka

    I really wish people would stop saying 'Christians' are closed minded, they aren't; they have no mind to open ok! Feel sorry for them because they have been so indoctrinated by fear that they actually believe things that science has over and over again refuted.

    So instead of arguing with them (I mean would you argue with a child?) Pity them, because they wont get it; they don’t want to know truth otherwise they wouldn’t be ‘Christians’ would they? Lets just hope these ‘Christians’ don’t instil the same fear and absurdity into the children they create, lets hope their children can see their parents for what they are.

  484. Charles B.

    Razor: You've insulted me very badly this time. Seriously, I'm hurt. Yes, I've read the Bible many many many times over, including the Old Testament. Let me check: Genesis alone has five "hash marks" that means I've read that book in its entirety at least five times (in this Bible). In fact I would like to be an Old Testament professor some day if I get my master's degree. I should read it more in fact, just to know my stuff even better than I do. Thank you for the backhanded encouragement.

    Reb is lost in all his ways. Every scripture is taken out of context, twisted, misconstrued and perverted to meet his heinous view of God. It would take me weeks to post why all his misinterpretations are incorrect. I don't know of any "gems" that you are talking about that impugns God's character. In fact, all I read reaffirms His goodness and justice and righteousness. I'm so tired of Reb's vulgar mouth I just ignore him most of the time. God is just as He is shown very well in Isaiah 1: 18-20: "'Come now and let us reason together says the Lord, though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool. If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land. But if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword' for the mouth of the Lord has spoken."

    How I love Him more and more and more every day. Sin made white as snow; I can think of no kinder, purer, more lovely God than that.

    That is a nutshell of God's character: Righteous, loving, kind, faithful but just. Sin is punished and you suffer the consequences of your actions. The consequences of the sins of ancient Israel was to be unprotected by God and conquered by other nations that did horrible things when they took Israel.

  485. Charles B.

    Razor: P.S. Out of respect only for you as I respect your comments (and I wonder if that's even reciprocated even a little bit lately), I'll look up some of the passages that Reb is referring to. He's making accusations and not always giving context or reference to the passage. Give me a day or two.

  486. Reb


    Now that I have finished LMAO and the sissy "oh you have really hurt me badly this time, let me get my lace hanky out and dry my eyes".

    If you get the time in the future I suggest you look into the works of Prof. Robert Eisenman who was greatly responsible for finally getting the remainder of the Dead Sea Scrolls released from the rotten hands of the Vatican in the early 90's. He has done a fine job of translating what they never wanted translated. He is jewish and has no reason to lie about the contents of those scrolls. You know 'who' on this site wouldn't know the truth from his arse.

    You can google Eisenman and should come up with some great articles of his.

    BTW in the future I hope you shall not "hurt me badly" I don't think I could live if thou shouldest. I might just have to go all emotional and whine like an old woman.

    One more thing. If people read the bible as they claim why do they always ask someone to show them where certain verses are and deny they are even in the bible???? What is wrong with that picture?

  487. Charles B.


    All I can find so far are the laws concerning female war prisoners. If they were not killed, then they could be taken as a wife and specific laws were given concerning that. She was considered a "wife" and couldn't be sold, treated brutally as she was under compulsion to marry against her will (Deut. 21:10-14). I spent a good two hours reading and looking for something more specific. There is a lot of violence in the O.T. but there were reasons for it. It was a different time.

    I couldn't find any commands to rape and rip open pregnant women, etc. I've read passages in the prophets that tell what would happen when God brought judgment on sinful Israel by allowing Heathen nations to conquer them for their idolatry and sin, but no such command is given by God to do so directly. If you have a specific passage, I'll try to elucidate it for you if I can.

    Notwithstanding, you've at least inspired me to start making more "hash marks" in my Bible. I have the time (especially if I cut back on TopDocs to do just that).

    In conclusion: Jesus said that if you have seen Him and His character, then you have seen the Father's character as well. Justice is paramount in Jesus' character, and mitigated and implemented with love. Even now, more do I trust Him.

    Peace to you.

    Charles B.

  488. Charles B.

    Sorry, 49 minutes. Felt like 2 hours as I'm rushing badly now.

  489. Reb

    Hosea 13:16 (King James Version)

    16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

    Can you spell Lucifer?

    Female war prisoners??!! Females are innocent victims as are the children. What kind of god would stoop to such brutality against a child? Only the the most vile and evil creature could conceive of such a notion. A child is always innocent and a baby is a precious gift no matter who the parents are.

    Achems, if you had a daughter who was in the position of the bibical victims of yahweh/satan how would you feel is she was forced to witness the slaughter of her entire city and family only to be taken as a 'wife' of the ones who murdered her loved ones especially if she was a young child? The bible says that when she no longer pleases the shit pile that 'married' her she will be set free. In the bible times a woman who has been raped only has one option and that is suicide or prostitution. Marriage is a joke in this situation as the godly Chosen are forbidden to marry a non-jew. Non-jewish women are nothing but sex slaves who are considered lower that cattle. Here we have a sick perverted god that clearly approves of kidnapping and brutal rape. What about the wives of these men who kill and take the enemy women as 'sex slaves'? Since women mean nothing in the OT I guess they keep their mouths shut just in order to live and protect their children.

    One idiot wrote " It was a different time." The bible so clearly states that god is the same Yesterday, Today and Forever!! Any 'god' that approves of rape at all is a total bastard and not a god. This 'god' also condones the rape of children who are of the enemy camp. This god should have been stoned to death. I don't give a great goddamn what a parent thinks or does but I have sense enough to know a child is innocent and cannot be held responsible for what the parent does. Only a fool would agree with the OT devil god.

    Rip open the bellies of the expectant mothers? Hosea 13:16

    Again, it matters not who the mother is. This is sheer paganism and barbarism at it's worst. If this is what a god does then bring on the devil. He can't even compete with this SOB.

    If seeing jesus is seeing the father who in their right mind would wipe their arse on either one? We can see the father as he orders wholesale slaughter on his own creation including helpless women and babies. Jesus was a composite lunatic who upheld all the Levitical Laws that put the Islamic Sheria laws to shame. The bible god is a demon and those who follow him are insane.

  490. Hardy

    Thanks D-K and Nada, I appreciate it!

    And yes, logic is the most beautiful thing in the universe :-D

  491. Achems Razor

    @ Reb:

    Am in agreement with your post. You asked how I would feel? no words to describe!

    Yes, what you say is in the bibles, am still waiting for @ Charles B: to refute if he can.
    And Charles, you should know that there is nothing personal, just want your take. Not trying to put you on the spot, Charles, but you did say you will come up with your answers. Tell me for one, about "Hosea 13:16"


  492. Charles B.

    Razor: Give me time (at least a week). It's not prudent to take time from my wife and little ones to address this issue during "family time." They are my priority in ministry and/or life in general.

    I will try and answer your question sincerely, but wading through some people's comments is like wallowing in pig excrement and then trying to explain while it's so vile! I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, however, and will assume your desire to know more is from a sincere heart. I'll try.

    I've never been critical of your Quantum views, but you mentioned how much opposition you can get from them. That's just a theory; my faith is who I am at my very core; put yourself in my shoes.

    Peace to you!

    Charles B.

  493. Charles B.

    Razor: I left you a comment, but it's in the "moderation bin". It just said, "Give me time. I'm working on it."

  494. Epicurus

    arguing from the bible without proof for a god is just giving into charles delusion.

    charles said reb twists what he sees in the bible because he wants it to look evil (i paraphrased) however the same could and has been said about charles construing it any way he can to seem good.

    how about define what god is, give some characteristics of this god and show logically that he exists without using the bible which is pure circular logic. (consider a muslim using the quran as evidence for his version of god, just because they have a book doesnt make them right, and just because the book says its right doesnt mean it is)

  495. Charles B.

    Another time, another discussion, Epicurus.

    Let me deal with Reb's accusations and Razor's questions about the God of the Bible and about specific Bible content here and now and we can discuss other agendas later if you are so interested later. Please.

  496. Reb


    The art of religious Apologetics was created to explain away and otherwise whitewash the obscene and cruel acts that fill the bible. Christians can not immediately defend their own scriptures without referring to some Apologetic work. You should go onto on of their sites sometime if you truly want to see how twisted and desperate these poor brainwashed minions are. Anything true can stand for itself and needs no other proof other than what one can see.

    The bible is what it is and even though over hundreds of years words have been changed or deleted to clean it up so the following generations would think it always was the same. The bible mentions 22 other books that were also ommitted by the RCC. If you really want to see blatant filth and occultism those are a much read.

    Charles denies what is in the bible until it is pointed out. He does not know the book he claims came from god. He is digging and scratching busy as a little bee combing through the apologetics to explain away what he doesn't want to admit. The bible is a hateful brutal book filled with crimes against humanity and blatant barbarism. As Lincoln once said, and I paraphrase 'christianity is not my religion nor the bible my book'.

  497. Reb


    One more funny thing. Charles pounds on his bible but does not do what it says. Charles likes to quote Paul but he must not know but a few of Paul's teachings. Paul instructs believers to be ready to defend their faith at all times. Here we have Charles having to take a few days to prepare because he is so lazy he has never read the book for himself!! If you have a defense it shouldn't take a 'few days' to present it. As far as I am concerned he is as phony as it gets and others here can be fooled by his sickening sanctimonious act but he has NOT fooled me one bit.

  498. Charles B.

    Reb: Before I answer, would you mind letting me know if you are "pro-choice," or "pro-life"?

  499. Reb


    Absolutely not! My view on that matter should have no influence on the answers you keep promising to everyone here. I know what you are up to and I have seen that tactic used before by lying christians who try to turn the argument and avoid the initial subject. I know where you went to get the idea for asking that particular question. After you present your 'apologetics' I will at a later date give my views even though that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

    See folks, getting a straight answer from a 'christian' is like getting one from a politician or a used car salesman. Charles obviously has been crawling around on the most deceiving of the Apologetic sites that do not answer simple guestions but teach how to trick and deceive. Once again this shows these snakes as the children of pure evil. Truth never has to lie and it never has to hide. Bring it on Chuckie.

  500. Achems Razor

    @ Charles B:

    With respect, but what is there to work on, to save you the trouble,
    will enter it for you.

    Hosea 13:16... King James Version.

    "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God;
    they shall fall by the sword; their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up"!

  501. Reb


    Is it just me or does it seem strange that chucky has enough time to "wallow in th pig pen" of vile comments but has to have another week to come up with an answer? He used enough 'family' time and space on this blog to have answered ten times. The only filth I see is what that verse in Hosea that comes from his bible. You know as well as I that there are many many such brutal vicious acts mentioned in the 'holy book'.

    Those who do not have an honest defence will run from the issue. He is most likely waiting for someone to write some reply for him but I assure you I know this game and I am ready.

    I will be away the rest of the day but will return later tonight and will see if Charles has some answers.

  502. D-K

    Wait, wait wait..

    Isn't the abortion issue a purely moralistic/ethical dilemma? Ethics and morals have been known to exist outside as well as alongside religion, this cannot possibly have any relevance to the subject at hand..

    It is not anyone's place to judge, except for those that are directly involved in the matter (of abortion).

    You might as well have asked him if he buys fair-trade candy, or biologically grown lettuce. It's a bit silly to be honest, Charles, and does nothing but pre-emptively weaken your standpoint.

    Swing and a miss, good man.. Swing and a miss...

  503. Charles B.

    Mr. Razor: I've put time and effort into this reply, even though I'm extremely tired, so please take the time to read it carefully.

    2 Timothy 2:15 states: 15 "Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." NKJV You have to rightfully discern the Word of Truth. Anyone like Reb can misconstrue a passage if they want to.

    Since Reb mentioned the Apostle Paul, I should point out that 2 Peter 3:16b states that "unstable people twist [Paul's words] to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." It's important to note that you can twist any passage of Scripture for your own selfish motive with the end being your own destruction in the matter. This is very much what Reb does.

    Hosea 13:16 states: "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

    When Reb uses Hosea 13:16 as an insinuated command of God, he is purposely trying to allude that God wanted such to take place to the people of Samaria, which at that time were part of Israel. It's what would happen to them in judgment when they are conquered by enemy nations, and not God's desire. In fact, God proclaims such actions to be "sin" and sin that would bring judgment as well.

    Amos 1:13 states: "Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of the children of Ammon, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have ripped up the women with child of Gilead, that they might enlarge their border."

    God condemns such actions as "sin" and sin that would be judged ultimately by Him. In the Bible, and the history of Israel, you must know that there are two things to consider:

    1. Actions done by God, or commanded by God.
    2. Actions done by man that were not commanded by God.

    Hosea 13:16 is what will happen to Israel when they are conquered for their sin by other nations. It's not what God wanted to happen, or was it ever commanded to happen.

    Deut. 21:10-14: "10 “When you go out to war against your enemies, and the LORD your God delivers them into your hand, and you take them captive, 11 and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and desire her and would take her for your wife, 12 then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. 13 She shall put off the clothes of her captivity, remain in your house, and mourn her father and her mother a full month; after that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. 14 And it shall be, if you have no delight in her, then you shall set her free, but you certainly shall not sell her for money; you shall not treat her brutally, because you have humbled her." NKJV

    I suppose this was part of the times when warfare was part of everyday life, but I would disagree with Reb, as this is a real marriage in the majority of cases. Reb has said: "Marriage is a joke in this situation as the godly Chosen are forbidden to marry a non-Jew. Non-Jewish women are nothing but sex slaves who are considered lower that cattle." That's not true. Women who converted fully to Judaism at the time were not second class citizens. They were treated well. Ruth was a Moabite and Rahab was Canaanite, and both are even listed in the lineage of King David and therefore Jesus Himself.

    We can talk about the origins of the names of God, Robert Eisenman, and the Dead Sea Scrolls at a later date.

    Charles B.

  504. Charles B.

    Now, Reb, are you pro abortion or not?

  505. Charles B.

    The relevance of the abortion issue is simple as Reb said: "What kind of god would stoop to such brutality against a child? Only the the most vile and evil creature could conceive of such a notion. A child is always innocent and a baby is a precious gift no matter who the parents are."

    I just want to see if he actually believes that, or is as I suspect, a hypocrite in the first degree, as a child is a child is a child according to his definition, and I would add an unborn child to that list, myself. I'm solidly pro-life.

    Just curious.

    Good night.

  506. Epicurus

    charles a fetus is not a child. it is not a baby. and comparing rebs morality to that of gods is a fail argument.

    reb could just as easily believe that eating babies and throwing their empty heads agains the wall was fun, but by being a hypocrite doesnt mean he is wrong.

    watch....i smoke cigarettes, but i will inform you that smoking cigarettes is bad for you and you shouldnt do being a hypocrite however what im saying is not any less true.

    if only all these pro-lifers looked at things from a scientific realistic point of view rather than a religious make believe fantasy world.

    i just dont know how you can wake up everyday and exist in a world you think was made by a magic man just waiting to judge us.

  507. D-K

    there is difference between a child, an unborn child, a fetus and an embryo.

    Fetal and embryonic abortions are the most common forms, BY FAR. The question then becomes, are you aversed to abortions later on in pregnancy, or do you dismiss all forms of abortion simply because they negate (the potential of) life? What is the main criteria for life, consciousness? Clustered organic matter? You can only judge on that which you know much (if not all) about.

    Is it an "all life is sacred" sort of thing, or is it just a human life? If it's just human life, why are human lives of different value, as you believe everything on this earth to be god's creation? If it's all life, do you mean to tell me you have not ever crushed a bug? Swatted a fly? Kicked some ant-hill ass? These questions are a necessity when judging on matters with such profound implications, simply stating an opinion, which may be rehashed or imposed, just isn't gonna cut it.

    Being pro-life encompasses much, MUCH more than just the abortion issue, and failure to specify strips your opinion of merit. If you take a side on a controversial issue, explain why you do so, before questioning others about their choice, and their motives, and then relating that to the current discussion.

    You've embarked on a very dangerous tangent here, and you'd be well adviced to pretend it was a sneeze, than to go in-depth on this stuff.

  508. Achems Razor

    There must be a difference between Embryo, Fetus and Child.

    The embryo, fetus, may only be conscious at a primordial cell consciousness.

    Only becomes conscious after birth, but not instantly, only after time as the world impinges on the newborn, does the newborn gain some semblance of "I", "I am"
    I do not really know. Just my take.

  509. Nada

    Ouch. This is where I differ somewhat. I had my son through in-vitro fertilization. He was once an 8-cell embryo. Having been through this process and having a healthy beautiful 6 year old boy as a result has really opened my eyes to this topic.

    I don't know. Touchy subject for those of us that have been able to see life at such a beginning stage.

    Having said that, I am pro-choice to some extent. I am also a foster mother. I have had 40+ children in my care that have been neglected and/or abused by their parents. THAT's not a life for a child.

    Oh, and by the way. I must have some sort of morality to do what I do - without having to have god tell me I should. So yes, atheists can be VERY moral.

  510. Nada

    Wow. Sorry for my crazy ramble. LOL I'm at work, bored and VERY hot! Yuck.

  511. Reb


    Ruth the Moabite is a different subject so let me set you straight before I post my abortion views.

    I should not be surprised at your utter ignorance of the bible as you have demonstrated it over and over and over. It was getting pretty boring until you brought up Ruth the Moab entering into yet another incestuous union with her uncle. Surprise! This was not a union sanctioned by any god and if you would look at the account in Numbers 25:6, 7, 8 it clearly shows no foreign wives were allowed into the congregation of the lord in the temple, ever, for any reason.

    NUMBERS 25:6 one of the children of Israel brought to his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel.
    NUMBERS 25:7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it he took a javelin 8 And thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.

    This was the ONLY time a Hebrew took a foreign wife into the congregation and he was killed for doing so.
    It was not the fact that these women served ‘other’ gods that prevented them from being part of the holy congregation but the mere fact they were not BLOODLINE Hebrews and the bible proves this. Aaron made a false god and all of them fell down and worshipped it but they were still allowed back into the congregation. Solomon tooks many strange women as ‘wives’ who worshipped other gods and he also began to worship them but was NEVER barred from the temple. He even made a human sacrifice of one of his sons to Moloch! He and David both built temples for their illegal wives to worship their gods in. No where does this god condone this type of marriage for the Hebrews.

    Here is a little ditty for you to ponder.
    NEHEMIAH 13:1 On that day they read in the book of Moses in the audience of the people; and therein was found written, that the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever.

    Ruth was a Moabite and you cannot find one, not ONE verse to even suggest she ever converted to judaism. Even if she lived by the mosaic laws she would have never been allowed in the temple. This is just one more proof that jesus was a liar. He is a descendant of Ruth the Moabite and we know now from your bible that Moabites and Ammorites were banned from the congregation of the temple for how long???? FOREVER!

    Even you have verified Jesus was a Moabite descendant. The first time you have been right and you just proved your jesus is an imposter and cursed by the OT god.

    Even for those gentiles who did live by jewish law they were only permitted to stand outside the temple on the outer porch but could NEVER enter into the temple where the so-called congregation of the lord gathered. Geez, Charles every bit of this is in your bible. Why don’t you try reading it before you preach to anyone.

    When dirty old Lot raped his two daughters the son born to the first daughter became the father of the Moabites.
    GENESIS 19:37 the firstborn bare a son called Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites(Jesus is a descendant of the Moabites thus an imposter god)

  512. Reb

    @Achems and Charles

    I had to address the Ruth issue first but my post was long and in moderation. Look for it to appear. My plans for today got rained out so I will be looking for Charles to spit and splutter and try to wiggle out of this one. lol

    When Charles eats a little crow I will post my abortion post.

  513. D-K



  514. Reb


    First of all the verse in Hosea states clearly that slaughter was another incident invoked and allowed by monster god as another punishment to his chosen. If this god is all knowing as you claim, he knew what was going to happen and did nothing to at least protect the innocent. There are way too many verses dealing with this monster god commanding the people to not only kill the men but everyone and everything that breathes, including suckling infants and ALL WOMEN. There is no word even attempting to forbid the killing of expectant mothers of which there would have been many.

    How do you defend this horrible god bringing on calamities so bad the people had to kill and eat their own kids? In gods own words he admitted he did this “to horrify them and make them know I am god’! Well, that should horrify any sane person who even reads it. Over and over the children suffer one way or another at the hands of this devil god. I would never serve such a revolting egotistical lunatic and call it my god.

    My views are just that…mine. I live by what my conscious dictates to me. If I were a bible thumper following the lead of your god nothing would be sacred, not even the life of a baby.

    I would never choose abortion unless it was proven beyond doubt the mother would die in delivery. There have been cases where the mother decided to go against the medical diagnosis and went on to give birth and live to raise the child. I don’t make decisions for anyone other than myself. To conceive is to bring together the elements that create life in the womb. Pregnancy means the state of nurturing and growing a human child. To me the words embryo and fetus are nothing more than the stages we all go through to fully develop into the human child that emerges in 9 months. When we have gardens and see tiny little tomatoes we don’t call them tomato embryos and we don’t pick them before they are ripe because we know they will grow to be tomatoes. We love looking at birds sitting on eggs and only a cruel person would destroy those eggs. Why does the mother bird care so strongly for those eggs? She knows these are her babies that she will soon see and feed.

    The Constitution says everyone has the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Everyone means just that. We are not to just wish that for ourselves but for all people. Who is supposed to keep those rights intact for the children, infants and even the unborn until they reach the age to do so for themselves? The moment of conception is the moment of transformation into what will be a bouncing baby in just 9 short months.

    Abortion has become the national birth control method to the tune of millions each year. That is purely disgusting. Baby parts is an industry that brings in trillions a year thus encouraging the continuation of partial birth abortion which in my opinion is cold blooded murder. Many doctors who perform that ghastly procedure call themselves Christians. The one who was gunned down in his church was a deacon on Sunday and murdered full term babies during the week. He was just following in the steps of his monster god.

    Statistics show that well over 70% of females who have abortions suffer depression and extreme guilt. Some have committed suicide, had headstones placed in cemeteries, take flowers to the mock graves on the child’s birthday and other means to ease the grief.

    What others think or do is up to them but I do believe in karma and what we plant is what crop we will harvest and have to eat.

    As for the children born into abuse, thank goodness for people like Nada. Which is worse, aborting a baby or abusing a child? Who has the right to make that call? At least there is a chance to end abuse but a dead child will remain dead. Will we practice eugenics because of what we think. I hope not.

    People are free to make their own decisions but I am not an advocate of abortion and never will be. That is another reason I abhor your god Charles. He has no respect for life whether human or animal. Cruelty in any form is repulsive and unacceptable but killing and abuse of a child is criminal in my book no matter who does it.

  515. Reb

    I see one of my post has disappeared. It was here then was gone without explanation. Hmmm

    Freedom of speech? Maybe some users are not who they say they are.

  516. Reb


    Thanks but I am out of here. I just did an IP check of my own.

  517. Charles B.

    Reb: You truly are diabolically inspired without wisdom discernment or understanding even in the least of the things of God.

    God himself spared Rahab the Harlot, and Ruth followed Naomi when she returned to her people. Ruth was a righteous woman and did not follow after her pagan Gods, as Orpha was said to have returned to. Whether or not a Moabite was ever allowed to go into the temple area or not is beside the point. So were the blind, lame, etc. were they not? I can be a pastor now, but I couldn't have been a priest at that point in time due to my birthmark. That doesn't mean I'm an outcast from God's grace, but barred from certain ministry or worship opportunities. Praise God, this is a New Covenant era where so much is under grace by the precious red blood of Jesus Christ.

    The story in the book of Numbers is about idolatry, not marriage. You are such a undiscerning person if not outrightly purposefully ignorant of the things and ways of God. It says in Numbers 25:1-2 1 "While Israel was staying in Shittim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, 2 who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate and bowed down before these gods."

    The story is about idolatry, and the consequences of sin. These were not righteous women, nor were these righteous men, Reb. Pure and simple.

    I can study it more in detail, but you seem to have no wisdom, Reb. But then again, you purposely try to call mercy, "violence," and righteousness, "evil," and in all your ways are you against the one true God. I suppose wisdom is beyond your ability to grasp at this point in time.

    Especially in the Old Testament, the people of Israel had to have separation rules to maintain spiritual purity. Without them, they fell into idolatry and sin. Yet, even then, God had always intended for the Hebrews to be a light to all nations and salvation would come to all men. That's always been God's plan. You never cease to amaze me with your ignorance of the ways of God. I pity you.

    Peace to you today.

    Charles B.

  518. Achems Razor

    @ Charles B:

    Thank you for your in depth answer, but I do not believe your God has anything to do with love for the fellow man. And the way you talk about God, almost like a living person dictating orders, but from where?? Must be from some other dimension, (dimensions) could be from the 11th dimension, yes?

    Since you believe in the Bible literally the bad should not be altered or toned down to suit your fancy.

    Hosea 13:16... You say God did not want that to happen? then why was it allowed? I thought he was all powerful? omnipotent. or maybe just did not care.

    If your God is love then why are other nations an enemy? As in Deut...21:10-14 "10" Why would your lord God deliver your enemies in your hand to take the women captive?

    All this God stuff means to me is man fighting against man and using there Gods to give themselves justification. Might is right! Gods will??...Fail.

    I still think the whole God stuff is the greatest story ever told! that is all it is, just a story!!

    Like have said before, do not have any God module in my Brain! Sorry Charles.


  519. Charles B.

    Razor: I have a message in moderation to Reb, but I will work on one last post about war and God's judgment that I hope will be all encompassing for the many questions posted above. I'll let it go at that unless you absolutely need to know more.


    Charles B.

  520. D-K


    "Thanks but I am out of here. I just did an IP check of my own"

    Do tell.

  521. Vlatko


    All of your comments you've submitted are here. If something is missing please repost it.

  522. Nada

    @ Reb - Thank you. And yes, do tell.

  523. BJ

    Charles B said:
    "It says in Numbers 25:1-2 1 “While Israel was staying in Shittim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, 2 who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate and bowed down before these gods.”

    The story is about idolatry, and the consequences of sin. These were not righteous women, nor were these righteous men, Reb. Pure and simple.

    I can study it more in detail, but you seem to have no wisdom, Reb."

    For Christ sake Charles you are that ignorant and lack this so called wisdom you speak of you don't even know it and that is scary. You can't talk about passages from the bible as if they are fact and then say you could study it in more detail. Study what? I could read Lord of The Rings and study that for the next 10 years and I would be an expert in just as much fantasy as you. When debating an atheist or logically person you can't use bible passages or say "god said..." it doesn't compute as logic to me.
    To use such arguments and not understand what I am telling you proves that you are the one without wisdom or intellect.

  524. BJ

    And to any of you Homophobes out there using the church as reasoning and guidance I am truly sad at the rate the human species is evolving. I thought we would be way past concerning ourselves with an individuals sexual preferences. It does not concern me in the slightest that there is a gay community out there. I can't come up with a logical reason why it would matter to me.
    Go ahead religees try and help me understand my misguided ways.

  525. Kurrrt

    Womankind + Mankind= humankind

  526. BJ

    What is your point Kurrrt?

  527. Nataniel

    That bishop and all his followers are going straight to hell.

  528. Nada

    I just HAD TO post this here. So fitting.

    In her radio show, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet.

    Dear Dr. Laura:

    Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination … End of debate.

    I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God’s Laws and how to follow them.

    1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?

    2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

    3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual unseemliness – Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

    4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

    5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

    6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this? Are there ‘degrees’ of abomination?

    7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

    8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

    9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

    10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

    I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I’m confident you can help.

    Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.

    Your adoring fan.

    James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus, Dept. Of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education University of Virginia

    (It would be a damn shame if we couldn’t own a Canadian)

  529. Epicurean_Logic


  530. Achems Razor

    Good, @ Nada:

    But since I am Canadian. Let them just try it!! (LOL)

    Will shove there Bibles in them, where the sun does not shine.

  531. BJ

    What more needs be said Nada?
    Nothing in my opinion.

  532. Katharine Tapley

    The saddest thing about this is the comments. People, before you judge anyone for ignorance, please learn basic elementary school spelling and the difference between "there", "their" and "they're".

  533. Kurrrt

    Only the weak require religion. Sharing the consciousness of all humanity along with creation is being ignored by practice of religion. It acts only as a cult deed against humanity. For being relieved of any situation by a God, or Jesus, Buddah or Mohammed etc., will not do it. The truth is within each human being, individually and collectively.
    The dictation and conception of old and ancient text are written by man, their appearance is disguised with good intentions but simply contracts of control and fear. Evolve to a higher culture and have a wonderful 2010

  534. John Seals

    After reading most of the posts here I am shocked. I thought we had moived passed this type of hateful predjudice for the most part, wrong again I guess. I have never heard of a gay gene, don't know if it exists. But I do know that I have met some beautiful people that turned out to be gay, so what. What do I care if they have a differnet idea of sex than me, i'm not having sex with them. I am merely being thier friend just as if they where not gay. I do not understand how they are attracted to the same sex, as I am not and have never been. But they have a right to be happy just as we do. You guys are intitled to your opinion and I don't think gays would want your judgement to be legislated, this is not change. They want us to realize they are just people with the same rights as the rest of us. This is why I hate religion, look at the segregation it causes and the guilt it instills. Wake up man you are being controlled. The powers that be do not want us to rethink the structure of certain institutions like marriage, finance, or legistlation. They may lose some of the presciouse controll they exert through dictating your thoughts and morality.

  535. Kurrrt

    Yup. yes sir. Indeed so.

  536. Huh

    Probably one of the less-serious comments here, but after reading a couple of other posts, it started getting irritating that there were 'bleeped' out words. But I just thought, "okay so they're censoring out bad words, that's understandable..." Until I realized that "gay" was being censored? What's up with that?

  537. nok

    Matthew 7;1-5 in good ole KJV: Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

  538. Kurrrt

    I have the 2010 modern version of that ancient text, and it's not out of any book. Just how does one advance into a greater culture and evolve from unfruitful history which aims to no-where? It's not what would Jesus do, it
    s what will you do, and now. Why copy old text and avoid new findings?

  539. Nikk

    I can't even comment on the discussion that has taken place here. It's the same two groups of people I see throughout this website that draw up battle lines between the religious and the scientific. Not saying I don't have a side chosen in this but I refuse to let this petty argument take hold of the grace and humanity I just saw in this doc.

    I can honestly say I've just seen true Christians. Everyone one of those gay men and women and every one of their parents. The parents most especially because they found something in their midst (homosexuality) that they COULD BOT bring themselves to come to terms with but they all did in the end because of the unending LOVE that they knew that God would show to them had they murdered, raped or been gay themselves. I just feel so much pity for the woman whose daughter had to kill herself before she could see the hurt and the evil and the pain she did to her own flesh and blood.

    All in all that made me realize that no matter how many 'devils in the flesh' try to misconstrue countless religions and dogmas that good men and women will ALWAYS triumph over evil men and women.

    Those people who say that gays should be killed and that God 'hates fags' seem to forget that "Thou shalt not be homosexual' is NOT a commandment but "Thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalt not bear false witness" ARE commandments. BUT as every correct thinking person knows, in order to be a fundamentalist you HAVE to pick and choose verses from the bible that support your claim. Because I guarantee that those of you who rail against homosexuality wear cotton with fleece and eat shrimp and have maybe once or twice planted a garden and dropped two seeds of different plants in the same hole in the ground. ALL mentioned in Leviticus among the passage "it is an abomination for man to lie with man". Think before you nitpick.

  540. Kurrrt

    Mankind & Womankind = Humankind. No other logical method for human creation exists.
    One planet having not one belief- but many, speak with separate voices. Renders a problem creation and outside friendly forces is presently unable to resolve without change of consciouness,(improved thought and kindness within each). The focus remains on creation and it is being ignored by Earths inhabitants. Evils lie in power structures, and include religious structures on massive scales. Restricting various technologies and promotes the growth of slavery created by illogical controlling governments, (church-state) creating slaves who pay gas and electric bills, etc etc etc., forever feeding the monetary system and its evil intent. (96,000 foreclosed homes in July 2010 and growing).
    "Circumstances must be reconstructed and re-thought positively, for the simple change to better ourselves is at hand.
    Have a great day, everyday!

  541. Kathleen

    Have been a Christian my whole life and was taught pretty much what this doc was against. I loved this film - I had always felt something was way wrong in "church" theology. I finally feel like I can totally say that loving someone of the same sex is NOT a sin, and nobody's "salvation" hinges on this issue. I totally related when they explained how it is just a "cultural" issue, not a religious one - that's so true. Was so absolutely enlightened after this film - thank you for making it! I am having all my friends watch this! Even my totally conservative Christian parents - was this ever an eye- opener for them!!!

  542. Epicurus

    @Kurt, no one is arguing to take away heterosexuality. no one is arguing that homosexuals are able to reproduce so what is your point in making that statement of yours?

    oh and what would you say if i told you scientists will be able to produce sperm using a womans bone marrow then artificially inseminate the woman with said sperm and she could reproduce...ALL WITHOUT A MAN!!! oh noes!! those pesky scientists always trying to one up zeus (thats the god you believe in right?)

    you say the focus remains on creation...creation of what? creation of hatred and inequality? creation of a BELIEF system based on superstition that tries to influence politics and society??

    do you really think you should also get your gas and electricity for free? do you really think you shouldnt have to pay bills for those things? do you think they just appear out of thin air, or god gives them to us with no end???

    how about teaching people that all ancient religions are rubbish and were nothing more than the ruling class using the fear and ignorance of the common people to control them? how about teaching people that treating someone different because of who they love is absolutely wrong on so many levels it hurts?

    why is reproduction so important in marriage or love? should women and men who are unable to have babies not be able to get married or love?

    think before we make moral judgments....and THINK doesnt mean read the bible or ask a means using critical thinking and logic.

    you want a good moral experiment, use the Rawlsian Veil of Ignorance....any moral situation that comes up imagine yourself not knowing what position you are in the situation..if you are unaware what side of the issue you are on you will most likely make the most fair choice, just incase you are in the more unfortunate position....

    think about it.

  543. Kurrrt

    That's creation of mankind sir, I also think the planet was here quite a while before mankind. And it's cool if you a homo, I'm not knocking you. If what you say is what you get out of the bible when you read it, so be it. And yes I do believe it would have been a way better idea to incorporate all energy into each
    household and completely self sufficient, gardens too. I left just a comment for the video, not especially for you personally.
    I believe God is not an independent existing entity, but just a human expression of our ulitmate concerns. Or perhaps just at times just figure of speech, like OMG, or god dam it, or god dam you, etc... Don't remember mentioning anything about reproduction, sorry. Jesus (another ghost) must be busy for a guy who died 2000 years ago, because 155,560 people die each day that's one every 1.8 seconds. Tuff for me to believe he sees everyone. Out of the 6.8 billion people on the planet I certainly don't share the same beliefs you do, sorry sir no disrespect. I have a position in all personal situations, not yours. Don't quite understand what your saying about babies, or the moral experiment you mention, sorry again. Or asking god for something because I believe a god does not exist. It's not about thinking about it- it's about knowing about it. My thought's may not be in the direction your going, sorry once again - hows about keeping your concerns personal and to yourself but thanks for sharing anyway, have a great 2010 -the best of luck to you sir in your lifes journey.

  544. Epicurus

    Im not gay at all. i dont know why you would think that.

    you said "Mankind & Womankind = Humankind. No other logical method for human creation exists."

    but that is wrong as i just showed you up there. scientists are able to do it another way.

    your post seemed to imply you were against homosexuality because it doesnt allow for procreation. so i responded.....

  545. Kurrrt

    Yes sir your correct, but two males=? I understand the methods of females by an artificial method by scientists. My point sir was creations origional intention. But perhaps we'd all still be cavemen in that case- ha. Can't get across many thoughts in by typing all the time. I found the earliest artificial insemination in Zachery Sitchen's book "End of Days" as far back as 2460BCE. Thank you kindly. Have a good day, everyday.

  546. Moot

    I am shocked that someone can watch the documentary in its entirety and still 1. be homophobic or 2. think that faith in god = homophobia.
    I am a proud Christian, a seminary student and a staunch advocate for LGBT rights. The Bible is an amazing collection of writings from ancient writers. Much of it is still very relevant but it seems to me that it is very anti-Christian to use certain pieces of this sacred and ancient texts to justify prejudice, hate and violence toward one group of people. Show me the group of people that Jesus shunned.
    Same sex marriage or loving relationships do not damage anything and if anything, the same sex couples with whom I am friends have inspired my husband and me with their profound love and commitment to each other.

    I empathize with the fundamentalists out there. I don't condone their beliefs but I also don't believe that being hateful in return is helpful either. Whether their anti-gay beliefs are derived from fear, ignorance or both, I still love them as children of God as we all are.

  547. Kurrrt

    Faith: Is a belief that does NOT rest on logical proof or material evidence. *Faith is not a noun, it's a verb. *Living a wonderful loving life with any of the various religions and all their appointed Gods, which lie outside the essence of humanity bring man FARTHER AWAY from natures intention. Followers of these invisible entities has successfully achieved this immorality into where we see society today. Divided religions is no mistake and the introduction of non living one Gods are entities of myth and actually are non existing in the material world in which we live in. The focus on mankind that nature provides is ignored because of illogical projected beliefs of Gods by controllers. The part of our creator coalesced is within each one of us. We together as one creates the oneness of our true authentic God. This belief is withheld because of a non existing outside entity. Appointed outside of the self Gods just brings mankind away from the essence of it's original self, and self thought. *In no other outside place can this oneness within mankind ever be found. Is it not logical to believe when someone dies we simply do not see them alive any more? Think. Those having faith found in written words by ancient scribes appointed by controlling forces share an illogical controlling abnormality, and is on going. Evolving to advanced culture and new greater understandings is held back by outside Gods for purpose of control. Human kind needs to think within thought instead of following an illogical herd of those who are very miss-lead. All invisible Gods has mankind kill each other and aim hate and pride for long enough. Peace for man is not won by force, it is only achieved by understanding. (evolve) Once a follower becomes a leader, no outside of the self God is necessary. It's not creations intention to accept a fear based society either. It's not what a Jesus would do- it's what will you do! Thinking for one self promotes the difference between being a leader and being a follower.

    Have a great life and live together as one human race un-divided, believing only what lies within yourself.

  548. Kurrrt

    I'm shocked anyone believes someone was taking notes when Jesus spoke.
    Is the question- what God is, or who God is? An entity of being or a selective answer to your needs? Is Jesus not proof his mother was not a virgin? If you were told a lie so many times, you'd believe it to be truth sooner or later. It's what evil does, tells lies over and over and over. You will understand why once you become more human, and develope new understandings. Like, was Christ really Jesus's last name?
    Jesus was Jewish, Christianity started 300 years after Jesus passed away, then a few years later it split in two, then kept spliting ever since. Each prest and minister has his or her own way of describing it in modern term from ancient. Makes even more sence right?
    The Bible was written over a period of 1400 to 1800 years by more than 40 different authors. Many of the Psalms were written by King David during his reign over Israel. The entire book was compiled between 1000 - 300 B.C.
    The Book of the Revelation is believed to have been penned by the Apostle John between A.D. 70 - 95. (But are still not sure who John was for sure)
    Could just maybe within these hundreds of bible writing years, perhaps been additions and deceptions and changes by illogical rulers for their personal selfish control? Scribes of ancient scripts were writen with a pencil on paper by the hands of man. In which becomes the word of God (a non existence entity) then the truth. Authentic truth for todays modern man to believe? Or for those ancient past time populations over a thousand years ago? Do you think without being told what to believe?
    Does anyone wonder why the recent origional Thomas papers found do not mention not one supernatural mircle? Very posable within hundreds of years of bible writing some suppernatural miracles and supernatural stories of fear simply appeard, forcing man into illogical beliefs.
    *No where written in ANY of the copies of these bibles gives modern humanity any of the devices or instructions to advance or evolve into our next new higher culture. This method of biblical learning will in no way allow mankind to advance into our future. So it remains with religion. I just hope the followers of a forgiving God that sends people to hell go on very happy with their demise. Have a wonderful 2010

  549. Terry

    "Do not judge lest ye be judged"
    Jesus disproves, the only people who seem like they aren't going to be judged by God are these gays.

  550. Moot

    I'm not sure I understand your comment. Did you mean to say Jesus disapproves? And why do you say gay people are the only ones who aren't going to be judged? God created people in many different forms including those who are attracted to and love people of the same gender as themselves. If you believe in a God who judges us (which I don't necessarily agree with), then gay people would be judged on the same merits as everyone else.
    Let's please stop using the Bible as a weapon against our fellow human brothers and sisters and refrain from the arrogance that leads us to assume we know what God better than anyone else.

  551. Kurrrt

    If Adam and Eve were the first two, who wrote their story? If Jesus was seen after his death, where's he at now when cameras are available? Isn't believing and make believe the same word? If so many people die (174,000 a day) on earth, do religious people still think Jesus see each and every one? Why did the bible stop getting re-written? Why do some priests scream and shout and some don't, good cop bad cop? Why do Judges put people in jail and God put people in hell- no forgivness at all?
    Children ask these questions and any illogical adult answers they get confuse them for the rest of their life. Use modern day common sence.
    Punishing our youth with biblicial answers in ancient text will never honestly answer childrens 2010 questions, they only restrict new modern advanced understandings. Focus thought within humanity, not outside of it. Pull mankind together as one, and not allow outside forces to control our thoughts. Evolve.

  552. malesnowwhite

    i'm a dude and i love dudes. i'm also certain that the fact that i'm a gay dude isn't the most interesting thing about me.

  553. Roob

    What I don't understand is the choice thing. Many homosexuals I've talked to said they cannot change who they are sexually attracted to. So, is it the homo sexual behavior we're talking about or sexual attraction? Sexual attraction influences behavior, right? And many have said they knew they were attracted to the same sex early in their life which caused so much internal struggle for them to understand. Can straight people change their attraction to the opposite sex? I don't think so, or at least not any straight people I know. There are so many gays who were raised in religious homes who did not want to be gay. If it was so easy to choose, wouldn't they have changed? So many have tried to pray it away but their attraction remain, and some were not able to develop sexual attraction to the opposite sex. If you're referring to behavior, then it doesn't changed sexual attraction. Wouldn't that would seem deceptive? It's like putting vanilla icing on a chocolate cake but calling it a vanilla cake. The covering didn't change the fact that it's a chocolate cake underneath.
    Many think behavior changes sexual attraction, but that's not the case with many gays I've talked to. Some have married and even had children but their same sex attraction remained even though they changed their behavior.
    So my question is, can you change your sexual attraction? Doesn't that decide your orientation? Does it really solve anything by calling homosexuality a lifestyle? There are gay people who never have same sex contact their entire lives but are still only sexually attracted to the same sex. Are they living a lifestyle?

  554. Kurrrt

    The sexual nature of a spirit entering the womb after 40 days or so enters through the pineal gland into the life cycle of the fetus. Could have some dark manipulation with the introduction of it's sex, and could have been done on accident or reasons unknown in female birthing life cycles. New life is a blessing and all human nature is of great value and reason. If a male spirit is introduced into a female fetus that sole matex is going to be attracted to a female because of it's male spirit host.(lesbian) A reverse change is not possible, and visa-versa w/male. My understanding can be corrected once proof is indicated differently, or until the Vail is lifted so we may see why. With a child born every 1/2 second on this planet things are moving quite swift. I believe they should be embraced as they become adult, for no falt is of the innocent. It's only a comment and I'm not an expert of human spirit.
    Have a great life, and lifetimes to come, peace.

  555. Kurrrt

    Hey website person, I didn't do this-> (*******) Must be automatic erase, I didn't intend anything discomforting, or bad words, sorry.

  556. Epicurean_Logic

    Kurrrt, with all due respect you don't have a clue what you are talking about:

    1. The sex of a child is determined by the fathers sperm and as such is determined upon insemination.
    2. A spirit enters the womb!! Makes no sense I think you will find that it is the sperm that enters the female eggs.
    3. Jesus was supposedly in the desert for 40 day the Israelites supposedly in the desert for 40 days. This has no relation to birthing so your attempt to link these ideas is laughable. After 28 days the unborn babies features are already recognizable.
    4. The pineal gland in the brain has no verifiable relationship to a) the nebulous concept of a spirit and b) the birthing cycle
    5. Dark manipulation….. Sex. Seriously stop watching harry potter and read a serious book on the subject.
    6. Its just getting boring now countering your non-sensical gibberish.

    Get a life, read a book, and grow a brain.

  557. Kurrrt

    Get a life, read a book, grow a brain. Nice unkind reply sir. Maybe you miss understood. If the sperm seed is a female the spirit which enters is usually a female, If a male spirit enters by error, you'll have a gay child. I did say I was not an expert... But of course indeed you certainly do know it all, so smart, 1.2.3. Before your kind judgement was sent after my simple comment. I could care less what you or your books say. You think I care about a Jesus? No one took notes everywhere Jesus went, thats silly to believe. It's 2010 not 2000 years ago. Jesus is history, I can't use ancient news in these modern days sorry, I'm not the follower, you are. Now a days when people die we simply don't see them alive and walking around any more. See Jesus make it into the TV news, or sunday paper lately? Perhaps because he's been dead for quite a while. You believe the make believe, so be it, it's certainly your choice. Your illogical term- Who needs to grow a brain sir? My comment was on the video. Have a great day, from what you learned from Jesus.

  558. Roob

    I'm not talking about religion, I'm talking about sexual attractions. That is the reality many people have to confront. If it is a choice, can you change your own sexual attraction? If so, how? How does a straight man stop being sexually attracted to a female, and visa-versa? What about bisexuals who are sexually attracted to both sexes?
    I'm talking about attractions not behavior. As said before, many people never have sex with the same sex but are still sexually attracted to them. Some are attracted to both the same and opposite sex. And I'm talking about sexual attraction, not attraction to their personality.

  559. Kurrrt

    Attraction is not a behavior, ok. Lets say your attracted to both sex's. I'm not an expert sir, and don't mean to offend anyone, but maybe within the certain ages of self identification there could be some confusion in asking the question "who am I" lets just say it's an identity crisis. Your not standing on firm ground in deciding the facts of attraction. Like attracts like, is one of the a Laws of the Universe... A sexual encounter or some introduction from someone who is gay introduces you to just the sexual encounter, void of love- is an attraction for a decision that your not familiar with, until it's decided and performed. Those who can make you believe in absurdities can actually make you commit atrocities. Think it out. The up bring parent issues also may have a roll in ones decision, or a rape. Ones life can be altered by different attractions, sheep, horses, cripples, chickens, midgets, cows, bulls, whatever. Void of love, there is the term lust. That to most is abnormal human behavior and the equation for life is still set at Mankind + Womankind= Humankind simply put. Human behavior is something learned in society. Human nature is not... Any other behavior other than the considered normal one can be considered an oddity in the eyes of what creation supplied for man to multiply. And there are those who leave that senero to the majority of others... Nothing at all to do with religion, but then is lust a religious sin in churches? Or unholy act void of love? Yet religion steps in, early bibles condemning un-natural abnormalities by rulers- those were stoned to their deaths in biblical days. Just a comment, like I say respectfully I'm no expert. There's almost 7 billion people on the planet, and the his and her opinions are very many, as we live and learn what's right, from what's wrong. Have a good day, anyway you look at it. Peace to ALL humanity.

  560. seb


    Ok, I’ll try to keep it short, sorry if its a little bit oversimplified. Basically your psychological sex as well as your sexual orientation are generated during the fetal period and a couple of months after your born. This process is called Imprinting and it is dependand on the concentration of sexhormons (mainly Testosteron). To give you a drastical example, there is a pretty rare condition called Penisagenesia which simply means the baby is born a healthy male but entirely without a p-e-n-i-s.

    The way to treat this is the following, the testicles are removed and an artificial v-a-g-i-n-a is constructed. Because the by far biggest part of testosteron in the male body is produced in the testicles, this procedure leaves the body only with pretty small amounts of testosteron. And in the absence of testosteron, the body will grow female features while the psychological developement will lead to a person who will also perceive itself as a normal female, attracted to males, although genetically we are still talking about a male (there are some other examples of this).

    There are theories about how the fluctuation during the Imprinting lead to heterosexual or homosexual determinations. While the female and male brain has some distinct differences in structure, in some few areas (e.g. small parts of the limbic system) there seem to be more commonness between heterosexual female and homosexual male brains as between hetero- and homosexual male brains which of course gives room for interesting speculations.

    Finally Kinsey’s studies have revealed, that there is no clear line between homosexuality and heterosexuality there is rather a smooth change in between. Or to put it simpler: we all have homosexual tendencies, what differs is only the degree to which we have them.

    To sum it up, it looks like you can’t change towards which sex you are attracted to once your body has developed. (Which is what any self-confident gay person will tell you.)

    @ Kurrrt

    You’re a complete fruitcake.

  561. Roob

    Kurrrt- You said "Human nature is not(learned)… Any other behavior other than the considered normal one can be considered an oddity in the eyes of what creation supplied for man to multiply"

    But isn't nature constantly evolving and changing? I said this because we see similar things in other species. For example, I did some research and found that Hermaphroditic fish can change gender, and it was an evolutionary process. It was stated that 'This fish can change sex from male to female, female to male, or even have both genders going at the same time'. And many fish can do that, not just this specific fish. So my point is, if nature intended for a particular fish to be male or female and it changes from what nature made it, wouldn't that be considered abnormal or unatural? And this is observed in shrimp, orchids,insects, & frogs.
    And I know human beings are a huge leap from these but- if nature intended for these species to be born a certain way and they change, are we not seeing something similar in human sexuality, or at least the way the human mind functions?

    Similar to what Seb said I found this on the American Psychological Association website:

    "Most scientists today agree that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors. In most people, sexual orientation is shaped at an early age. There is also considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person's sexuality."

    "No, human beings cannot choose to be either gay or straight. For most people, sexual orientation emerges in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed."

    About conversion therapies: "Close scrutiny of these reports show several factors that cast doubt on their claims. For example, many of these claims come from organizations with an ideological perspective that condemns homosexuality. Furthermore, their claims are poorly documented; for example, treatment outcome is not followed and reported over time, as would be the standard to test the validity of any mental health intervention."

    "Psychologists, psychiatrists, and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, a mental disorder, or an emotional problem. More than 35 years of objective, well-designed scientific research has shown that homosexuality, in and itself, is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems. Homosexuality was once thought to be a mental illness because mental health professionals and society had biased information."

    Of course this is all coming from a psychological point of view. There are others that say:

    "To date, all information and studies involving genetics have proven homosexuality to be environmental, not genetic."

    "There is no scientific data that substantiates a genetic or biologic basis for same-sex attraction. Anybody can change."

    So it's all very conflicting. It's likely that all the factors that result in someone's sexual orientation are not yet completely understood.

  562. Kurrrt

    Don't ever make a homo mad, he'll cry.

  563. seb

    @ Kurrrt

    Sorry to disappoint you mate but I myself am actually straight. It seems there was no dark manipulation while my sexual nature entered my spirit through my pineal gland while I was an embryo. Correct me if I misunderstood your version of the process. Or better don't. Time shouldn't be wasted that carelessly.

  564. Roob

    Sigh....never mind.

  565. Randy

    I just read this by Epi-Logic and I loved it! I must repost it here... because it has all the truth...
    Epicurean_Logic10/08/2010 at 21:07 Kurrrt, with all due respect you don’t have a clue what you are talking about:

    1. The sex of a child is determined by the fathers sperm and as such is determined upon insemination.
    2. A spirit enters the womb!! Makes no sense I think you will find that it is the sperm that enters the female eggs.
    3. Jesus was supposedly in the desert for 40 day the Israelites supposedly in the desert for 40 days. This has no relation to birthing so your attempt to link these ideas is laughable. After 28 days the unborn babies features are already recognizable.
    4. The pineal gland in the brain has no verifiable relationship to a) the nebulous concept of a spirit and b) the birthing cycle
    5. Dark manipulation….. Sex. Seriously stop watching harry potter and read a serious book on the subject.
    6. Its just getting boring now countering your non-sensical gibberish.

    Get a life, read a book, and grow a brain.

    Somebody has a big brain that I would very much like to eat...

    You rock, Epi-Logic!

  566. Kurrrt

    Those unknowingly will be the first to find out, when their time comes. Once deception is discovered it becomes it. As a in a maze a new path is entered into for the exit to truth, it's when the end of an idea or theory comes to it's timely end. The new understandings unfold old ones discarded. I'm no expert. Never said I was, just made a comment using information I got from the same sorce you might some day. I'll simply leave the expertness to your understandings. And thank you very much and I'll take in great consideration in what you present, respectfull. Have a great 2010+

  567. William Bebonis

    Some of you guys are a load of nutjobs. Get it through your thick, ignorant skulls. The Judeo-Christian God does not exist, he's a fantasy on the same level as Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. None of your arguments that 'homosexuality is wrong because the Bible says so' have any power or substance, they are as weak as 'the Earth is the centre of the universe because Aristotle says so' or 'Santa Claus is real cuz daddy says so.' Love between two mutually consenting partners, who cause no harm to anybody else, is perfectly fine.

    I will never take a Christian seriously anymore.

  568. Kurrrt

    We grow up from little kids and discover Santa really doesn't deliver, then next we find out he doesn't even exist. Next to the tooth fairy, game over.
    And Mr God who also doesn't deliver or exist, why is he still here after his games way over?

  569. Justice

    @ savedbygrace: I think you should go and seek some professional help. It sounds to me like a)You suffer from a case of extreme self-loathing and b) That you are trying very hard to convince yourself that you're not gay. I'll tell you one thing....You haven't managed to convince me one bit! The fact of the matter is you are still sexually attracted to men....period.

    People, critical thinking is a vital asset to the advancement of the human species. I find it hilarious that once someone discovers “god” all logic, reasoning and opposing view points are discarded. They completely close their minds, as if the discovery of their new “faith” is the absolute universal truth.

    This “tunnel vision” is extremely common among religious people and people who live through faith rather than logic. Along with this “tunnel vision” is the utter intolerance and blatant disdain for anyone who doesn’t share their narrow world-view. Religion is for the weak, it's for those who don't have enough gumption to own responsibility for what happens to them, whether good or bad.

    Christianity, along with all other religions and theistic belief systems are frauds! They serve to detach the human race from the natural world, and likewise, each other. It supports blind submission to authority, it reduces human responsibility to the effect that “God” controls everything, and in turn horrible acts can be justified in the name of the “Lord” and the “Divine Pursuit”. And most importantly, it empowers those who know the truth but use the myth to manipulate and control societies. The religious myth is the most powerful device ever created and serves as the psychological soil upon which other myths can flourish.

    Remember, critical thinking is a vital asset to the advancement of the human species, not basing our thoughts and conclusions on age old books full of age old fairy tales.

  570. Moot

    @Justice - I am a straight ally of LGBTQ people and I am a Christian. I am tired of the sweeping generalizations that people make about religion and Christianity. Not all Christians abandon logic, reason and critical thinking. I don't believe that God controls everything. And if someone is using a "Divine Pursuit" to justify a horrible act, then they are certainly not doing God's work.

    A completely disagree that religion serves to distance us from the natural world and each other. If anything Christianity call us to connect more with each other, to be in community and to help one another.

    I don't base my thoughts and conclusions on the Bible but I read the Bible for inspiration as there are many timeless truths within its pages. There are also many stories that are racist, sexist, and violent that I don't agree with and I don't feel that I have to accept all or none of them to stay true to my faith. My faith is not contingent on the pages in a book written by men in power with their own agendas, but there are pages in that book that have inspired me and guide me to be a better person.

    I agree that organized religion has indeed done a lot of damage to a lot of people, but don't make the sweeping judgment that all faith paths are the same in this regard. All Christians do not fit into a mold of mindless drones. Some of us find meaning in our relationship with God that drives us to work for social justice, protection of the planet and love and support for all of our fellow humans.

  571. Kurrrt

    Ein Experte bin ich nicht. Sobald neue Erkenntnisse verfügbar sind, werden alte verworfen.
    Using ancient teachings entering into a future of mankind is going to work as it once use to. Only restricts advancement. When man accuses his fellow man of being not correct according to their indivisual historical standard approaches, only deeper defines their cariacture of what they do know. I'm not an expert, but here, I'm a witness to many willing to restrict new advanced findings unknown to them.

  572. Kurrrt

    The separation and the division that religions create is horrific. In the past and now. We as one human race has outside interference. God, and is not a human being in which expresses nothing but mans written words, invisible entities cannot create action. The growing of the fetus is one thing, but there is an issue with the entering of the spirit into what ever sex the fetus is. So, whatever sex the fetus is may receive it's opposite spirit, it happens within in the first 40 days. First thing to realize their are two spirits, male and female. If the new spirit is a female and enters a female fetus, that fetus will grow to be attracted to a male subject. If a male spirit enters the womb that carries a female subject, that female will be attracted to a female and visa-versa. Some who read books will argue about when, how, why, etc. Regardless, the reasoning behind this attraction comes deeper then what any man made books can relate their theory too. I'm no expert and my information is a comment and I kindly share to open minds, pages and authors of various books is not were I get this particular info, not important. Those (gay) with a mix matched spirit who's attractions cannot be personally altered are very innocent of their feelings, and cannot control their attraction to same sex. It happens, and it's lived through in this complete tour through this physical life cycle. The acceptance is harder lived through in a world of ridicule. Be human, and accept and embrace occurrences that really is out of the hands of our physical lives. Live happy in harmony with whatever creation offers, and just kindly be human to all other humans as one race. I'm all for the separation of church and hate, the future of peace. Negative comments about others, one day will define to those, what they will truly realize about themselves. Have a great day- everyday.

    "Nur nicht aufgeben"

  573. Roob

    @ Kurrrt- Ich nehme an, Sie sind Deutscher? Hallo! Perhaps that explains your unique way of wording. However it still does not explain why nature constantly changes and evolves. Many things in nature change, adapt,evolve from their original natural design. We see this in the plant world, animal world, biology, and so on. The behavior we see in humans have also been observed throughout nature. To say gay have a mix match spirit of sexes doesn't make sense. There are gay men who truly don't wish to be female nor act or look feminine (as having a female spirit would suggest). And what would explain peoples attraction to both sexes? A bisexual cannot be defined as a homosexual, nor a heterosexual.
    I can understand Moot's position on Christianity. I like it's concept of love your neighbor as yourself/do good to your fellow man. I don't think doing those things are harmful to anyone. But as Justice said, this is not uniform among most Christians. Christianity is surprisingly the largest religion in the world with over 2 billion followers, yet it's the most divided with approximately 38,000 denominations in the world with each having their own distinctive beliefs or practices. So clearly it's a religion of division. And yes, anyone who has studied the bible will come upon some abnormalities in it's writings that raise questions. I find that many Christians think the bible as a book that fell out the sky intact without any knowledge of the formation of the canon, the translation and cultural context of the Gospels and letters.
    -Many have no idea that there were other "books" and letters also once considered part of the "Holy Bible" which is supposed to be inspired by God. It's a book that's been altered repeatedly down through it's life cycle.
    -many seem are oblivious to the history of how the bible was formed through the canon, which books were decide to be kept and which weren't, things that were discovered in archeology digs that shed light on early Christianity, and so on. The reason many are not aware of this is because they are told to refrain from such thinking. It isn't allowed to question faith.
    My point is, the fundamental concept of Christianity is to embrace faith, but it creates a source of conflict and contradiction that has caused so much division. I've met many Christians who helped a lot of people. But I've also met just as many who caused a lot of hurt and pain to others.

  574. anonymous

    Let me understand. If I believe that homosexuality is wrong just like adultry then I am a hater? Even if I like the person but believe they are sinning, and that natural law and God's law wanted man and women to unite and not man and man. I have not right to this new interpretation now and if I believe it wrong then I am a hater? Just because the Bible has old testiment out of date things then I am forced to accept this as something "normal?" Do you advocate the Courts telling the Church what is should teach from the pulpit? Perhaps they will be forced to marry people that they believe should not be married? Is that what you believe? You like to show the radicals screaming at people but most people dont sprew venom out but deep down they do not agree with homosexuality so they are ignorant and unenlightened?

  575. Kurrrt

    The Lords ok with me if I rape a slave but I have to keep the slave for 7 years. Bible doesn't really specify male or female. Perhaps I may be stoned to death at the edge of town if the Lord shall decide my fate, if I was to do some sort of sick homo act to a same sex slave. (but that's not what I'm about,(the video)). Or, if I try and kill a slave (male or female)and the slave lives I don't get punished, but if the slave dies I get punished,(Exodus 21:20-21)dang. So the Lords ok with me almost beating my slave half to death, okay. Of course the Lord is pretty busy and has over 6 billion others to worry about. Anyway, If I sell my daughter into slavery she goes for 6 years,(so do men slaves) and the only way out of her enslavement is for her to marry the slave masters son, unless she don't enjoy being constantly raped by him or them. I can also keep a slaves wife and children captive until the slave decides to become my permanent slave, because the bible tells me so, heeeee. Most people are certain this is the best book to bring into the future of mankind, yup. (?) Even though it was not written by God but "inspired" by the filthy loving Lord himself. Perhaps a third revised holy bible would sweeten up Mr. Big a little more, huh? Yeah lets write another 3rd holy bible to really get this enslavement thing going even deeper, and restrict all new understandings. heck, and give all the homo's full reign to do as they'd like, (Nicht unter dem Regenbogen mit Tieren bitte).

  576. xspectator

    It's really sad reading through these comments. Everyone knows how obnoxious religious zealots can be. It's no secret. What bothers me are the atheists who are equally as insulting, presumptuous, and aching to discriminate at the first opportunity. And I say this as someone who doesn't believe in God. What's the point, are you trying to convert people? Yea right, Christians just love being belittled and are so incredibly receptive to it. You just enjoy feeling intellectually superior, separate from the poor pathetic masses who are too stupid to let go of God. Guess what, most of the world believes in some sort of deity, so society isn't going to change if you keep alienating people.

  577. Kurrrt

    God saved one life and made the newspaper today!
    (not in your lifetime)
    Modern society brings an ancient bible from the Dark Ages and uses it for a guide book to enter into mans new modern advanced future, has failed. The complete focus on humanity gets further ignored. Because the focus on a non existing entity recieves all religious focus, while dark forces laugh at this senceless act and their success... New understandings get ignored and neglected even further by the focus on pathetic religions which was invented by dictators in the first place. Religious truth is nothing but commands to obey and follow. Be a leader instead, for once and for all. Do you really need a book to tell you? Have you ever once had to think for your self?

  578. jen

    Why do people keep refering to AIDS or HIV as if it were a "gay" disease? Its a horrible diease that kills PEOPLE. Please stop refering to HIV/AIDS as tho it was "Proof" that God hates gays. Its just mean.
    I believe in God but religion is IMO a way for those in power to control the population thru fear and intimidation as well as a means to justify cruelty and savagery. This is MY opinion. What I stated above is a fact. AIDS kills all types of People.

  579. Nevermore_in_Oz

    This was a good watch. Clearly religion, for many families, can be a source of strength and comfort, and it is nice to see people being able to embrace both their religion and their gay child. The idea of having to turn your back on your faith, I would imagine for some, would be as unrealistic as turning your back on a child. When these 2 loves can coexist it is really remarkable. Thanks for the doc!

  580. Kelly Clark-Ball

    You absoluately have the right to believe what you want to believe. But believe it because of your own convictions, not "Because the Bible Tells me so." If you use the Bible as your justification for believing that homosexuality is a sin, then you must also accept the rest of the Bible's so-called condemnation of many other things that we as a society currently accept as "normal." Such as eating shrip! The opposite is true in that you must adhere to some of the practices that are no longer followed; such as selling your child into slavery.

    If you choose to stand by behind your opinion that homosexuality is wrong, then tell me why? Why do YOU believe it to be wrong? I feel confident that when you take away the Bible as a source for your why, you will have a hard time finding real justification for your belief. I am also confident that if you educate yourself on what it means to be a homosexual, you will ultimately change your opinion. But it takes strength and guts to follow through with that. Do you have what it takes? Or will you continue to stand behind the falsehoods you have been taught?

  581. Cyberbard

    ...unlike what you are doing now, right? :)

  582. oddsrhuge

    I still believe in Dog...oops dyslexia

  583. David Edward Hollis

    This film moved my heart all the way thru my soul.Amazing every human should see this film.Being a Gay male could totally relate to the people in it.

  584. April Patricio Decio

    where can i watch the full documentary?i already tried in veoh but it said it's not available in my country,i'm from bahrain by the way.i already tried searching in youtube but no :((

  585. Sweet Thang

    Wow...there is more hatred towards God than I thought by reading this! I can not believe that ANYONE "thinks" that The Bible is a MYTH!!!!???? This subject is very touchy with my family because there are 2 of my nephews in which was brought up in church their whole lives and their dad is a preacher! Yeah, church 3 times a week faithfully and had gone to revivals! If there was a ball game on a Wednesday or Sunday.. they couldn't play. God first and everything else is second to Him. With my 2 nephews "coming out of the closet" doesn't mean there isn't "hope" or that my love has changed for them but I pray for them each and everyday! I pray that nothing happens before they can repent for their lifestyles and escape that Fire down below. Yeah just like you will have eternal life in Heaven.. you will feel the heat of that fire for eternal life. I don't wish that upon anyone!

  586. Achems_Razor

    WOW! Sweet Thang. brainwashed to the ultimate extreme, aint you?
    A whole family of religee's. Eh?

    I don't hate your god, because your god is not real, something has to be real for anyone to have any hate.

    Your bibles "are myth!" written by humans and compiled by humans from many different books. There are many different off-shoots of religion in your I presume Christian empire also, about 10,000 or so. That do not quite agree with each other.

    Your two nephews are what they are, so quite laying guilt on them by your praying and hoping.

  587. 0zyxcba1

    @ Achem

    For the Bible Tells Me So:

    I once chanced upon a book laying on a park bench. With no likely owner in sight, and having a moment to spare, I sat myself down, and read:

    All written herein is Truth.

    Score after score of pages followed, all blank, presumably to be filled in by others.


  588. 0zyxcba1

    @ Achem

    For the Bible Tells Me So:

    I once chanced upon a book laying on a park bench. With no likely owner in sight, and having a moment to spare, I sat myself down, and read:

    All written herein is Truth.

    Score after score of pages followed, all blank, presumably to be filled in by others.


  589. truthkeeper1964

    DISGUSTING!!! I cannot Believe that our country has gone down so far that people actually believe this garbage!!
    Homosexuality is a SIN! Look what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah. God destroyed the city by fire because he couldn't even find 10 men that were righteous. if this documentary is a reflection of what american's believe then it won't be long until God punishes our country.

    It makes My heart break to see how many are blinded, lost and on a path to eternal damnation. I believe that we are to Love the sinner but to hate the sin... I hope and Pray that God draws people closer to Him and pulls them out of their life of sin so they can serve Him with an awesome testimony to His grace.

  590. Epicurus

    it breaks my heart that you are so uneducated that you actually believe that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by some god being. we have found the locations of those cities and there is NO SIGN of fire destruction.

    you should maybe realize that you believe fairy tales and shape your morals around that fairy tale/myth.

    Plus Canada allows gay marriage and we havent had any fire rain down on us.

    you are clearly a sad delusional person who has his head so far up his own a** he cant tell myth from reality.

    YOU are the one who is disgusting. People like you make me wonder how we have actually progressed as far as we have. it were up to people like you who take the bible literal we would still be using africans as slaves.

  591. Epicurus

    the bible is most surely a myth. if you actually believe in the story of adam and eve or noah or any of the other crazy stories in the bible then you are truly a confused individual.

    and i feel sorry that your nephews have had to be told how to think and what to believe so strongly. that is pathetic.

    if god is perfect then he wouldnt make people homosexuals and then punish them for it. come on, grow up.

  592. Achems_Razor

    Why don't you go and live in New York, where nothing gay is a sin, gay marriage is legal, as in many other places. Tell your garbage to them, see how long you will last, or is it because you are still in the closet, like some other religee's. Eh?

  593. Guest

    What was that documentary where some (Much B-4 Jesus Christ) archeologists found scriptures describing that some "Ancients" used some sort of known "Psychedelic" mushrooms native to the middle-east that were in use many individuals in those days.
    These scriptures were in a forgotten language & namely, cuneiform.
    Much B-4 the ancient testament, the Torah & the Quran.

    Not much religion of any kind in those years except knowledgeable individuals that had time for "Power Trips" to think about the meaning of life... The religious concept was only "Simmering".

    Thereafter human beings began to learn how to induce the concept of "Gods" and a few "Formal" religions got structured and identified to each Gods we ten heard of even though there was no "LSD" at that time. Pick your choice, there's plenty!

    When anyone reads some "Holy" books as the Apocalypse" or parts of the Quran, read the surroundings events in which these verses where written. A guy who secludes himself, alone and let his thoughts navigate into the spiritual ocean, in reclusion of his society.
    A drug addict behavior who just didn't know what drug addiction is.
    That is alas the facts are they are.

    When was it that human beings discovered some plants gave a funny effect after consumption?
    It gets the brain reving at high RPM and if it can be described, written, it gives the justification to aggress other individuals as history teaches us. In modern medical terms, we call this "Delirium Tremens".
    Alcohol is only one path to it, hashish and mushrooms are 2 other ones. Alcoholism and drug addiction was unknown in those years.

    I am not one who sees that negatively, history describe it as negative. Bottom line, is there a "God"?
    Maybe, but it never was and is not described in any scripture up to now. Only misleading babblings.
    'Better find yourself another chariot pretexte.
    Homosexuality is for others, not my cup of tea.
    Simply put that is!

  594. mollyl

    The bible is a book. God is an imaginary being that lives in the sky. I am Human. I am real. I am gay. And I have every right to love whoever I want. I also like shrimp. It's tasty!

  595. anu

    Hi kidee....BIBLE is not a MYTH.BIBLE is HOLY....and the incidents in the bible what u call crazy stories...are not stories, but they are true incidents took place....If u reeeeealy understand the meaning of HOLY, u wouldn't bark such a words like a street dog...GOD dint make u.. people as a homosexual....and GOD dint make u people as an idiots....U urself become an useless and unfit AND HOMOSEXUALS.. in this world by roaming with useless friends and half minded people.....dont blame on GOD with ur half mind, kidee....u know, who speak the above words in such a way u did....?kids like 3 to 4 year old...becoz they dont know what is rite and what is wrong.....and people who grow up and still speak in such a way..we call them as HALF MINDED STUPID (LIKE U KIDEE)....DONT BLAME ON GOD FOR WHAT YOU ARE, AND FOR WHAT U DID, AND UR PAST GENERATIONS...FOR GOD HAD ALREADY MENTIONED IN BIBLE IN EXODUS 20:5...(You shall not bow down to them(IDOL GODS) or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me).......SO KIDEE, GO BACK TO UR PARENTS AND FIND OUT IN WHAT WORST SITUATION ARE THEY IN AND WHAT SIN HAD THEY DONE AND STILL DOING AGAINST GOD...AND ASK THEM ABOUT UR PAST GENERATIONS IN WHAT STUPID AND WORST CIRCUMSTANCES THEY WENT THROUGH AND WHAT WORST SIN HAD THEY DONE.....THEN U WILL COME TO KNOW WHATS RITE AND WHATS WRONG AND WHERE WENT WRONG IN UR LIFE....HOPE U STOP BLAMING GOD AND STOP HATING HIM...GO AND CONFESS UR SINS IN FRONT OF GOD AND START READING HOLY BIBLE BY GIVING UR HEART TO GOD, THEN U WILL KNOW WHAT IS RITE AND WRONG AND U WILL HAVE KNOWLEDGE AND WILL KNOW HOW TO SPEAK WITH PEOPLE...I CHALLENGE UR LIFE WILL DEFIANTLY CHANGE....U HAVE NO RITE TO BLAME GOD..TAKE CARE...

  596. Guest

    Anu just gotta be that sort of professionnal lying preacher who'd show up to the at the United Nations telling the whole world that Saddam hide WMD in Iraq!

    Provided he gets his dose of pshychedelic mushrom just as one of his stars Paul done when he put down his psyche "Astral" trip into words some time ago.
    Good blah-blah for the ignorant you are.
    An ideal perverted mind that anybody could ever dream of!
    -Belive in my God, else I'll kill you in UPPER CASE typing!
    Easy to see what king of love that crook has for humankind.

    There's nothing good to expect from these low disgusting sub-human beasts. Any God don't call for such stupid beasts.

    Only "Your God" is looking to cause prejudice to humankind.
    Is that their way to instill any religious concepts?

    ANU?, stick your God where it goes, down there.
    Your're of no help, you're a waste.


  597. Guest

    You two nephews should move away from your inquisition.

  598. anmick

    I can't believe that you actually believe there is a god!! The bible is a fairy tale nothing more! You people are so mindless, you can't think on your own, everything that happens in your life is because of god.....take some responsibility for what happens in your life. It is mind boggling that people are so frightened of going to hell that they believe such bull crap! Your so called god is supposed to be all good, all knowing, and all powerful??? If that's true then how do you worship something that would let babies get raped and murdered, babies born disfigured, or people born with something wong in their head and later on become murderers? There is so much horrible stuff that happens in this world any all good, all knowing, and all powerful god wouldn't let that happen. That is no god to worship!!!!! Are you crazy??? And I don't want to even here about how it's all our fault because Eve ate an apple because she was tempted by a snake! haha What a joke!

  599. Rebecca Julius

    some people are (not biologically or psychologically) inclined to be homosexual. this is because the human race as a whole is sinful and corrupt, and we all struggle with sin. maybe for some this "thorn in the flesh" that the scripture speaks of could be lying, lusting, stealing, hating... the list goes on and on, homosexuality included. so maybe having those sinful urges is not something you can control because we are all sinful from birth. but you do have a choice to reject that sin and chose to live a sanctified and forgiven life. you may still struggle, but the lifestyle is a choice... i don't care what psychologists or scientists say about whether it's right or wrong or dangerous to "internalize" those feelings because they have no authority or say over what is truly right or wrong - only God has that power. and that being said, homosexuality is WRONG and SINFUL, no matter how much "scientific proof" this world has to offer... thing is, you either take God at his word, or you reject him. God is the same yesterday, today, forever... some of the things that are in the Bible aren't necessarily rules that we follow today - not because they are not valid, or modern enough, but because in the Old Testament, God was not only a spiritual and moral guide to his people, but a political and worldly leader as well... so arguing that times have changed ONLY applies to those rules, rituals, punishments, ect - not the moral and spiritual code of God's people.
    so argue all you want against God, against his "fundamentalist" or "conservative" followers, and your conscience all you want, you will never change my mind. God hates sin, but not the repentant sinner. amen.

  600. Achems_Razor

    Speak for yourself, if you think you are sinful and corrupt because of a woman that was made from a rib listened and did what a talking snake told her to do and eat of the fruit of the only tree in the universe, that is your prerogative.

    Your gods have no power at all over anything, all they do is get in the way of progressive science.

    You also seem to think you know more than psychologists or scientists concerning homosexuals, show us your credentials from peer reviewed sources.

  601. dave.eggermont

    This god thing you speak of seems very hostile. I would suggest you stay away from it.

  602. 0zyxcba1

    Thanks, Achems.

  603. 0zyxcba1

    @ Rebecca Julius

    Rebecca, I am not being snide when I say I feel a little bit sorry for you, not because you see the world differently than I do, but because you are so concerned for my well-being and, presumably, for the well-being of others, that you may be neglecting your own well-being.

    Rebecca, I know you think I am headed straight for hell, and I know you want to help me. But there are an awful lot of people in this world and, as you know, most of us are going to go to hell. I know, Rebecca, you believe that it is you duty to Jesus to spread the word and to witness so that everybody has at least a chance for salvation and heaven. But Jesus did not mean for you to try and save the whole world. Only Jesus can do that.

    A gentle suggestion.

    For your sake and for the sakes of those to whom you witness and, not least of all, for Jesus' sake, realize that the best witnessing is through example. Maybe what Jesus really wants is for you to let people know you are saved and then to witness by setting a worthy example, Watch me. This how a saved person conducts herself.

    If you must witness directly, maybe you could consider asking the person first, so as not to push people even further away from God, which I am sure you neither intend, nor want. You might be surprised how many, not everyone, but many, say, 'Yes, please tell me more'. Coming on to folks the way you have with me is not helpful for anyone, least of all, you.

    I do not want you to be upset, or angry.

    I want you to enjoy the best life you can.



  604. avd420

    It shouldn't break your heart. Because I think I can speak for all who are eternally damned when I say...We're having a good time!!!!!

  605. avd420

    You lost me at... "i don't care what psychologists or scientists say"

  606. April Leigh

    Brilliant! Leaves viewers educated, inspired, hopeful...***** I was raised in the Episcopal church yet so was my husband, both in Texas but in different areas and have had debates what we were taught on oh so many subjects. Every scripture pointed out is how I was raised and pointed out even in the same church how we are indoctrinated different. So for this video I thank God, Father Hungaford of Odessa, Texas, and my Dad a lay reader of out church who had the patience to explain to me the dogma my mother's side was not only wrong but abusive which was also pointed out in this video. Thank you from someone until this video didn't realize how much of my open mind was formed by my younger years. Until this video I had not seen it side by side. So, yes, though about being LGBT is natural/normal, it finally made it OK to be disowned at 13 by a side of my family for not believing what they believed in scripture and dooming me to 'hell'. No Im not gay. but support and love, Ive been married for 25 years with 2 daughters - but have been fighting the evil known as misrepresentation of the scripture. I have been alienated and disowned but never alone for I knew I was right because The Bible Tells Me So! 80)

  607. miriamlondon

    It's people like you give christianity a bad name

  608. Marshall Jarreau

    That was so beautiful. A reminder of the power of unconditional love.

    That is the key . . . some religious people don't even know what that means. It's one thing to preach about it, but a completely different thing to experience it and to share it with everyone. Jesus could do it, why can't you?

  609. Marshall Jarreau

    This was so incredibly loving and sweet. I'd follow your example any day!!

  610. Judah Moore

    This breaks my heart and infuriates me at the same time. I

  611. Theresa W

    Meaningful documentary, which should be shown in schools.

  612. blablablaghgh

    God made the gays and if you hate them then that means you hate God AND his Beloved.

  613. a_no_n

    "Wouldn't it be just oh so sad if they started feeding savages like you to the lions, again?"

    Again? Christians were never fed to lions in the first place...that was something they made up to spread that good old Christian persecution syndrome, which makes any attempt to treat them with the same contempt they treat everyone else with seem to them like persecution.

  614. a_no_n

    some people are (not biologically or psychologically) inclined to be homosexual.


    Homosexuality is determined by the amount of Testosterone the foetus is subjected to in the womb.

    if a Foetus recieves trace amounts of testosterone (the bare minimum to sprout a penis) it is far more likely to be gay.
    a tiny little bit less than that again, and you've got a lesbian instead.

    "we are all sinful from birth"

    But i thought jesus dies for our sins...If we're all still sinners at birth, he kinda threw his lot away for nothing really didn't he.

  615. a_no_n

    i did read the bible...that's why i'm an anti-theist.

  616. a_no_n

    God destroyed the city by fire because he couldn't even find 10 men that were righteous.

    Either that or he totally destroyed a city full of good modest people...after all isn't pride meant to be a sin?

  617. Guest


    !!! Your lacking a great part of the humankind history! :-)
    Many historians from many nations from this era reported those events. And many didn't even know or were unable to read each others languages.
    It did happened as much as the christians did boiled many non-christians in boiling vegetable oil.
    Same for the "On the Stick" broiling of the vietnameses during the Viet-war.

    Why does it still occur in now days?
    Very simple: Because within the spectrum of the various "Types" of homosapiens found on planet eath, there are a few like you that are tolerated by us.


  618. Guest

    I'm going to assume you have never been in the closet. Let me tell you what it's like.

    There is no such thing as happiness or self-respect or God. What exists is constant shame and misery. Everyday, you look in the eyes of strangers and wonder if they know you're a liar. If they can see behind the veil. At night, panic attacks seep in unexpectedly. Your parents and brother are sleeping peacefully in their rooms nearby. But the night goes on and your in the bathroom panting and sweating and crying for hours on end. Finally, you fall asleep from exhaustion and do the same thing all over again the following day. After 20 years of silence, I came out. Suddenly, the world had a sparkle in its morning sky. The veil was gone. For the first time in my life, I felt God--whatever that may be. I'm not trying to change your mind because I honestly don't think it's possible. Really, the only difference between us is that you know what you've been told...I know what I've seen.

  619. Charles Darwin





  620. James Colwell

    @Charles Darwin your not funny...

  621. Mini MB

    Very moving documentary :)

  622. oddsrhuge

    If the "human race as a whole is sinful and corrupt" is there a biblically generated chart that we can refer to?

    What sin is number 1 with the bullet?

    Yes a very facetious comment. But based upon the fact that the bible, sanctions rape and murder in specific circumstances, as JUST and RIGHT, I am missing your point. Please clarify it.

  623. oddsrhuge

    Oh my. Thousands of years of supernatural indoctrination can create amazing results.

  624. Achems_Razor


    Preaching not allowed, especially long winded preaching, read the "comment policy" above.

  625. LoudJack

    adnoses, your not quoting anything and not allowed to preach.If your going to do so make sure aof your Book, Chapter, & Verse

  626. Sieben Stern

    you'd think if the stakes were so high, such as burning in hell, that god would have made the rules and message super clear and there would be no room for widely varying interpretations.

  627. His Forever

    Ok: Sincere questions time: If the homosexuality is a genitic thing (one that we have no choice about), then are the percentage of homosexuals born to known homosexuals statistically higher? Yes or no? And could that be from nurture rather than nature?

    I don't know the statistics to this quesiton. It's a sincere question.

  628. His Forever

    Second Thought: If homosexuality is a sin, and people are arguing that it's not, then why would the Bible say very specifically that it is?

    I think it would be better for a person struggling with homosexual tendencies to stay abstenent and live a good Christian life (get married with kids if they choose), but not give into the desire for homosexual sex.

    Lots of things are sin: child abuse, adultery, beastiality, porn addiction, etc. I read that 80% of pastors and other Christian leaders view porn on a "regular" basis, but like everyone else. 40% have affairs. That's sin. Sin is sin; we all have tempation for some kind of sin we have to overcome if we want to live a Christian life.

    Don't give in to the temptation to being a practicing homosexual. The risk to your soul is just to great. No God? Well, you spared your soul form a lifetime of lust and debochery at best. God? You saved your soul from Hell. That's how I view it.

  629. Achems_Razor is sin?? sex sells! and the whole world is run on that, sex is the most prevalent thought, for "most" men anyway, every10 sec. or so.

    Now concerning your bibles, I sometimes wonder if you read them at all.

    Bibles are so chocked full of sex, porn, et al sanctioned by your gods to make it one of the most prurient readings of
    all time.

    Would not be enough space on these comments to list all the sex stuff from your horny gods.

  630. AntiTheist666

    @His Forever

    Well Charles looks like you had a complete makeover? No more boring CNN ;-) You might want to check your spelling in your bio, it looks a little loose? I hope that FOR THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO doesn’t turn your nice fresh new look into a grubby anti-homosexuality backdrop.
    And No Homosexuality is NOT a sin!
    To persecute someone because of the sexual orientation between two consenting adults is a SIN! If you want to use that kind heinous language. Most especially if these people have found love and happiness together.
    Christianity not being very christian?

    The Crucified One

  631. His Forever

    Thank you. Spelling is not the best of my abilities.

  632. Henrik Jørgensen

    hehe... u can always pic on some ppl spelling... just like me, ive dident learn english in the shcool only the real real basic, but then again. i read and understand 4 5 other langues. some ppl do meen well when they corect others spelling others. just wanna muck em. heh. well back to what i wanted to say

    THE real SIN....
    is those there dont trying or willing to understant respect others. there dont have same religion/stand point as your self.

    the SIN is also to not acknowledge, there might be more then your own way to do the right thing. here in life.

  633. Henrik Jørgensen

    well... if there are so darn many.

    why dident u not just qoute atlast one.!
    its seems i remember the bibel another way that u do.

    when u trying to put somthing down. and state some...
    then please throw a fact or 2 in.. els its just
    nonesense. talk.

    i would like a few. proof from you before i even consider. to agree with you

    quote "Bibles are so chocked full of sex, porn, et al sanctioned by your gods to make it one of the most prurient readings of
    all time"

    first of all its us. and not on or the other god. there made up the word sex and porn. in basic speak is when 2 humanoids. getting together its mating. porn, is word we did come up with. it mean other ppl have sex with each other. for the vary only reason, not to mate but satify those humanoids out there... sex is just another word for maitng. so choise ya words carefull when talk about this subject :)

    Have u ever seen any animal making porn for injoy of other of same spieces.... the only one is the mankind :P

  634. AntiTheist666

    Ha ha, Thanks Henrik, I like a good larf!

    I wasn’t picking on Charles’s spelling and he knows that, so would you if you read the comments!

    Your pathetic attempt to paint me as a sinner marks you out as a religious apologist at least. Go to the priest then and leave doing the right thing to those that have a clue.

  635. Kateye70

    I guess a lesbian and a homosexual man would have to combine genetics in order to increase the percentage, right? Otherwise, LGBT children are born to straight parents, or to only one LGBT parent.

    If you think about it, there's a genetic advantage to having a certain percentage of one's relatives unlikely to procreate, since they will still be likely to help raise the children of their close kin. Assuming the close kin don't disown them for religious reasons, of course. Hmm, that seems to make religion not so advantageous...

  636. jaberwokky

    I love how docs like this bring the bigots out of the woodwork.

  637. DarylTJ

    I think it is bizarre categorising people regarding their sexual preferences. It is a very private thing and nobody's business except the persons involved.

  638. Uberdumb

    "Gay" folk are made in two ways. Sexually abused children and genetically predispositioned (hermophodites plumbing may or may not match the chemical preference for male or female partners). Both can't help it. Abused children may revert back to "straight" given time and love. Genitically mixed/matched are what they are. Cleanliness? Anal sex in any form is inherently filthy as waste/ poop comes via this track.

  639. over the edge

    that is one of the most ignorant, bigoted and hateful statements i ever dare you. the only thing that may be applied as remotely true is your username. i suggest you apologize

  640. shanpeit

    We are born in sin and we are sinful by nature. We must spend most of our life fighting what is wrong with our nature.That is the challenge we are faced with. 7% of animal species convey "gayness," including humans. There is documented fact that the hardening process used in plastics mimics the estrogen hormone. Our environment is completely loaded with plastics. This has been attributed to the significantly increased ratio of 1 to 8 females to males being born in the human species . A "gay" person has the sexual preference opposite their own physical outward genital and gender manifestation. How does this happen within the very delicate metabolic hormonal pathways? Obviously, some where down the line in fetal development something acted on the neurological system and activated the female biology ego versus the male. Considering what is known, I do believe their are many women walking around that were meant to be men and vice versa.The significance of the massive amounts of pollution that industry pumps out that does mimic the estrogen molecule in the physiology of the animal and human species is tremendous. I suppose that as long as mammon aka wealth rules the world, everything is bound to become more convoluted, demented and deviated.

  641. over the edge

    am i understanding your claims right? could you elaborate on "gnificantly increased ratio of 1 to 8 females to males being born in the human species " and back that claim up with something?

  642. Uberdumb

    Over the edge? Did I say anything that isn't coprrect here? Somethng that doesn't fit is " you're Ok and anything you do is swell?' Come on clean up and move on. Your sexuality is not and should not be the biggest part of your existence. If it is then you are really screwed up.

  643. over the edge

    when did i mention my sexuality? then you ask "Did I say anything that isn't coprrect here? " yes you did? you on the other hand tied homosexuality to being a victim of child abuse or hermophodites (sic) can you back that up?

  644. Uberdumb

    You didn't have to. Let me clarify , not ALL sexually abused children grow up to be "gay. " They are however sometimes deluded into thinking they are gay because that door was opened first by a supposed love one/family member /etc.. MOST sexually abused children grow up fine and live hetero lives, never looking back. Hermophrodites come in many forms but all are hormonally and genetically tweaked off center. Not their faults. If you believe God made them that way ,fine. He did make all things. However Satan has tried to dismantle all that God has done and Satan and the WATCHERS may have had a hand in the "tweaking." Again, not your fault. Read Genesis.

  645. Kateye70

    lol, wut?

    Gay people are either hermaphrodites or sexually-molested children?

    What about all the gays that are born with normal genitalia to normal families, and are not the victims of any crime other than the bigotry of their own relatives?

    Believe it or not, there are even gays who are both physically and psychologically normal, who grow up in loving, accepting homes. They become normal adults with excellent self-esteem who happen to be gay.

    Satan and the WATCHERS...sounds like fantasy fiction to me. Or a really, really bad band name.

  646. over the edge

    homosexuality is not a delusion,result of abuse or something that needs to be fixed and definitely not something that contains fault . it is just part of who a person is and no more or less a concern of yours then if another person is blond or brunette. when you judge others based on something so irrelevant to their character and worth you devalue us all.

  647. Achems_Razor

    Horse-manure! here we go again with all the satans, demons, the legions of hell, vile things that crawl in the night, the depths of purgatory etc: etc:

    Yes, read Genesis and all of the Old Testament, and came to the conclusion that your god is a Ho.

    Satan's WATCHERS? who are they?... Satan and the Watchers? good name for a movie.

  648. Uberdumb

    Kateye70 check your chromosomes, then we can talk.
    Over the edge. Where did I say anyting about fixing gayness? Did not place blam on the person. You see many "gay" folk feel they have to be validated i.e. marching around, gay day parades, up in the face of anyone not in agreement. There are dwarfs , differing tribes of men, gay folk, short people , tall people. All human all have worth. Just don't wear your sexuality on your sleeve and expect special treatment. Agreed there are many who would look at a man wearing a dress as a tad off or a women who over emphasizes her manliness. Odd? yes. But it's OK. There ya go. I validated you, now be off and about your business.

  649. Uberdumb

    Achems Razor.. LOL Why are you going to Christian based documentaries? This one even tries to validate your ways. Oh I see seeking out any one who does not believe as you do. Can't you see, YOU ARE BEING USED, and not to shave with. You know not your own master. I would say "satan get thee behind me," but in your circles that's a come on. Be about your business.

  650. over the edge

    you state "I validated you," how exactly did you do that? did i state anything about my personal sexuality? you assume to much and know little

  651. Epicurus

    lol did you really just call the god of the bible a ho?!

  652. Epicurus

    could you stop throwing around immature insults at people?


  653. over the edge

    ok i understand now. you think anybody who opposes your nonsense is a homosexual. now not to insult any homosexuals out there by comparison but lets look at your recent post but replace gay with religious terms and see if it fits.
    "you see many "religious" folk feel they have to be validated i.e. marching around, religious day parades, up in the face of anyone not in agreement. ""All human all have worth. Just don't wear your religion on your sleeve and expect special treatment. Agreed there are many who would look at a man worshiping an invisible god as a tad off or a women who over emphasizes her christianity. Odd? yes. But it's OK. There ya go. I validated you, now be off and about your business. "

  654. Achems_Razor

    "In my circles that's a come on"?? what do you mean by that? If you are thinking what I think you are thinking, will break it to you gently. sorry am straight, and my heart belongs to "Neytiri"
    And do not try and solicit, to enhance your love life on TDF.

    And do not tell me me to "Be about my business"

  655. Uberdumb

    Over the edge. Maybe I didn't validate you but you sure seem to need a hand/ boost there. Maybe you are "on the edge?" I was trying to help you. God loves you, sin no more. I can't throw stones as I was born with out arms. I am typing this message with my toes. I have learned to overcome my issues. You might follow my lead.

  656. Achems_Razor


  657. Epicurus


  658. Uberdumb

    Achems razor. ooKkkayy! Not gay. Fine with me. There I validated you. Feel better? Ah! Neytiri, I think I used that shaving gell before, gave me a heck of a rash? Glad you like it. A lot evidently :( Now if you don't have any real business then, be about your recreation? But please don't form a parade to honor it.

  659. Epicurus

    if anyone needs validating its the guy throwing around "gay" as if some kind of insult.

    your strange fascination with other peoples sexuality makes me wonder.

  660. Uberdumb

    I stand corrected. Thank you Epicurus, walk with God.

  661. D4V1D LVPT4´K

    Homosexuality is a sin but child molestation by catholic (and other) priests surely is not...or is it???

  662. Alejandro

    yes you have free will -and that is what will save you ore kill you .GOD gave it to all of use.

  663. lauralynn7

    Sexual sin, is the only sin where you commit a sin against your own body. All other sin are offences against God or other people. When you betray your own body, it will betray you for you reap what you have sown. There are two ways a person comes to commiting un-natural acts by way of sexual acts with people of their own gender. They have a parent that has a controlling spirit, a jezabel spirit usually from their mother, sometimes the father. The other way a person comes to commiting un-natural acts is through just plain rebellion. I am a pentecostal Christian, we are born-again, Holy spirit filled and baptised in water. We are born-again of un-corruptible seed. We can sin no more. For Jesus has shed every single drop of His Holy blood there is no more blood left for sacrifice. If we commit any sin as a born-again Christian we re-humiliate Jesus again as the death on the cross did. Jesus loves me more than anyone else on earth why should I humiliate Him? I love Him. The Truth will set you free! Repent of your sins, that is receive the free gift of salvation. Jesus came to the world not to judge but to love the world and through Him would be saved. The greatest treasures remain in Heaven for those that gladly choose Jesus now. We are living in the age of grace that's why we aren't killed for our sins, the past 2000 years. God said that in the end days men (and women) will be lovers of themselves... they will commit un-natural acts.. God will give them what they want... hand them over to a perverses spirit... depraved mind... It was prophecised a couple of thousand years ago. These are signs of the end days. Repent of your sins for the Kingdom of Heaven is near. Please remember that Jesus is coming back, then it will be too late He will be your judge.

  664. Arman Babakhanian

    Yes you have free will... but you choose the one that he doesn't like and he'll fry you in hell... quite a free will I see.

  665. Todd

    Who asked for free will? Why would you want free will if your decisions in a short lifetime can lead you to be tortured for eternity? Not me. That point defeats the entire idea of free will.

  666. max cady

    seems to me that christianity has turned into more like a circus in the U.S. Using it as fear for lots of things on tv and the internet etc. In Europe it is kept more pure. you can´t change christianity into what its not - end of story.

  667. JDaniels Lydia

    I am not gay and have no gay person in my family, but I have friends that are. Every man has a right to love who they want....People are sick. I thought that christians should love not hate...Religion is just a horrible thing!

  668. Manuel De La Rosa

    If you live as if God doesn't exist, you better be right!!!

  669. Manuel De La Rosa

    If you live as if God doesn't exist, you better be right!!!

    So you have a correct representation of the Bible?

  670. Manuel De La Rosa

    You are so lost, and have no idea what you are talking about. Have you ever read any history books??
    Ignorance will kill you!!!

  671. Manuel De La Rosa

    At least ONE who knows the truth!!!!!

  672. Manuel De La Rosa

    You are so lost, and have no idea what you are talking about. Have you ever read any history books??
    Ignorance will kill you!!!

  673. Manuel De La Rosa

    If you live as if God doesn't exist, you better be right!!!

  674. Manuel De La Rosa

    If you live as if God doesn't exist, you better be right!!!

  675. Manuel De La Rosa

    Yeah! Even though many can't get it!! Would you believe that??!!

  676. Manuel De La Rosa

    If you live as if God doesn't exist, you better be right!!

  677. Manuel De La Rosa

    It's not dyslexia, just plain stupid!! Sorry, plain Cupid, oops!

  678. dewflirt

    Or what? :)

  679. Achems_Razor

    Or what? is right! are you talking about your man-made insecure, jealous, vengeful, psychotic god of the old testament.

  680. Epicurus

    would you like to be more clear? I have taken many history courses considering I have a degree in Anthropology and archaeology. yes i have read history books.

    so what is it that i said that was historically false?

  681. Epicurus

    if you live as if Allah doesnt exist YOU better be right.

  682. traumaromeo

    Well it would in your mislead and lost world- but love is not defined by what's between your legs but what is in your hearts. I only pray that you can turn to TRUE salvation through Christ and do his work- Be passionate and raise money for the 10,000 kids a year who die from starvation in THE UNITED STATES not by overriding God's word with a complete lack of knowledge and sincere concern, unless it caters to what your personal phobias and differences.

  683. Mitch Keith Langston

    All of you people saying, "Religion is a terrible thing!" are really quite dense. Did you not get the part where the entire video was focused on morally corrupt "Christians" (i.e. The a**bag that actually said he'd kill a homosexual and lie to God about it) who take their own interpretation of the bible to better fit their insecurities?

  684. Alv V

    I realized that the woman that had lost her daughter only managed to survive mentally because she could blame her bible-teacher for having made her homophobic. That felt like the essence of what this documentary should really be about. Instead it tries to educate people about how it is wrong to make others feel so bad about themselves that they go kill themselves. Oh, really? Is that even something Jesus would agree about? o_0


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