The Four Horsemen

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The Four HorsemenOn the 30th of September 2007, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens sat down for a first-of-its-kind, unmoderated 2-hour discussion, convened by RDFRS and filmed by Josh Timonen.

All four authors have recently received a large amount of media attention for their writings against religion - some positive, and some negative.

In this conversation the group trades stories of the public reaction to their recent books, their unexpected successes, criticisms and common misrepresentations.

They discuss the tough questions about religion that face the world today, and propose new strategies for going forward.

  • Yavanna

    I highly recommend this doc - if only because it introduces the protagonists!

  • Miriam

    You guys leave very little in the believe of faith.

    Faith--Is the thing hope for and the evidence of those things not seen.

    In my opinion, if you guys are Atheist, its your choice, but, we as believers in the God of all creation, including you guys, don't need to give up our faith just because this is a way that will accommodate you.
    Never the less, I hope you see the light soon, very soon, with out the so call scary tactics. Peace.

  • Travis Lloyd

    I won't even go farther than this; Richard Dawkins have you ever considered that you have wasted your entire life??? To you four horsemen I do not hate you or even dislike you but maybe somehow you will get this message. If you have the proof Allah, God, or a Supreme Creator does not exist then draw me a picture because I can't understand being a physics major and a successfully intelligent one at that...I'm here respond and I will see. Thank you have a great day.

  • Mickey

    well since no one else will... I'll go ahead and say it. I LOVE YOU RICHARD DAWKINS! wasted his life? he's trying to teach ppl to straighten up and be smart so they don't waste theirs. Anyways, a fantastic watch. I love the insight these gentlemen give. I mean I'm great at refuting bible thumpers, but some of this just blew me away cuz i haven't worded it like they did, or thought about it in as much detail, or maybe just didn't arrive at the same end point. I don't know, but this is far from the rehacked "i hate god" rants that you see. It's not meant to be funny. It is very dry. But if your looking for a way to spice up your already masterful debunking of religeon speeches; this is epic. EPIC!!!! four horsemen? how you like that pun? lawl

  • Bala

    Its a pity that religious people say they know and understand god but can't even understand mere humans.

  • Shugga

    @Travis Lloyd

    If you have proof that a supreme creator DOES exist, than bring me THAT, until you can actually prove that to me, we in the scientific community must go by what is the most rational and logical conclusion, that there is no God.

    As far as creation goes, well, the Big Bang is our Surpreme Creator, isnt it? I highly doubt that your a phycicist. Any REAL physicist in our modern times would instantly dismiss the idea of a god, since it contradicts the very field you claim to be working in sir.

    Religious people are not understandable to me, how can a mind be so feeble and dumbstruck?

    We now have proven the existance of quarks, are you serious? We humans can proof the makings of a photon, but we fail to have collected ANY evidence WHATSOEVER of a godlike power, and you thick-headed, ignorant, faith-mongering ghouls still cant get it into your heads that this idea of a god was made up by humans to controll eachother and find purpouse in life?

  • Cliff

    I would love to see an actual round table discussion with these four men and four religious scholars. See a honest, decent discussion.

  • Shugga

    @Cliff

    Thats funny, using the words 'religious scholars' and 'honest' in the same sentence.

    There is no discussion there though, because no matter how bad you believe in God, NOBODY has ANY physical evidence of his existance, so it would be a rather pointless discussion, wouldnt it?

  • Yavanna

    I always find it bizarre that whenever there is a doc on here that includes something like atheism or science it is immediately trolled by theists who almost certainly haven't taken the time to watch the video nor taken some time to consider the content. I chuckled this morning when true to form we get two theists immediately pipe up with the usual brain farts in very poorly constructed barely intelligible sentences.

    Cliff - I don't think there has been a four horseman Vs Theists debate but I could point you towards a stack of religious debates including one or more of the four. I tend to favour Hitchens. Easy to find on YT or google. Quite a few on fora.tv..... These are real debates with highly respected theologists.

  • Shugga

    @Yavanna

    Well put. And thanks for the suggestion you made for Cliff, I will also enjoy some debates, this is all highly interesting stuff after all.

  • Miriam

    Well, You will get the same answer from me.
    Proof to me that God THE CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH, does not exist. PROOF IT.
    Until you get that proof, may God have mercy on you.

  • sue

    Miriam--here's your "proof" that god does NOT exist:

    "GENOCIDE"

    AND NOT OF JUST THE JEWS, THE INDIANS, THE RWANDANS, THE ARMENIANS, THE BOSNIANS, etc. (google genocides) but the one created to kill "all" the "IMAGINARY WITCHES" BY THE GOD BELIEVERS, THE CHRISTIANS!

    Did I "PROOF IT" yet? "Priests that rape children"

    I think your UFO has been double parked too long and god left without you!

  • Achems Razor

    Miriam:

    Was it your "God" that killed over 150,000 people in Haiti Earthquake??

    Where is the mercy??

  • lou

    HAITI, Something thats part of the balance of life. And what the churches , well being straight up , they cash in on. Without that death,destruction,rape,murder,violence. There would be no need for faith, which is the BACKBONE of all religions.

    Exact goes the same for the non believers(atheists, scientific minds etc. With all these atrocity's and the illogical thinking and logical thinking that come with it , being logical there would be debates that will never end. There will always being religion even when science dissembles it part by part.

    Death will never end.
    Religion will never end.
    Science will never end.

  • Yavanna

    Miriam

    It is not for "us" to disprove the existence of god. That cannot be done. Can you disprove the existence of fairies and leprechauns or Santa?

    The onus of proof is on you.

  • Ockham

    @Miriam, True to your ignorant, faith-headed form, you're even deprived of basic logic.

    If I say that there's a fire-breathing giant green lizard behind my back, you expect me to prove it to you. Do you go on proving how this lizard does not exist? No, that's absurd, that's just not how things work.

    It's MY duty to prove that there's a lizard behind my back, just like it's YOURS to prove that all your Iron and Medieval age hate-filled chauvinistic story-telling is true.

    @Lou, "There will always being religion even when science dissembles it part by part?" I guess we can all dream. Religion isn't a default, it hasn't existed since forever, and it will not.

  • Shugga

    @Miriam

    Thats getting it backwards isnt it, people that are sued in court don't have to prove their innocence, the prosecutors have to prove their guilt. Believing in something because it can't be disproved is probably the most insane form of thinking i've ever heard of.

    While your at it, please make sure to also honour unicorns, big foot and the loch ness monster, since their existance is about as believable as that of your god. Worse even, (while ofcourse fake) there have been countless pictures and sightings of both these mythical creatures, which is more than i've ever seen as far as your ridiculous god goes.

    And please STFU with your 'holier than though' BS, people like you are truly the scum of the earth, not only are you close-minded and ignorant, you fail to think rationally and are actively persuing people who actually DO base their beliefs on fact, to insult them and their science. I truly despise you religious sheep, without people like you, the earth would be a safer, more harmonious environment, in which science could finally bloom.

    How nice to see all my fellow Atheists actually giving this debate some credibility with RATIONAL ARGUMENT, something you sheep can learn something from.

  • Jack Henricksen

    Ok, first of all, there is a God, but the God Christians believe in, is not real.
    God is not benevolent, he is righteous.
    Benevolence and righteousness are not the same by the way
    So, the most righteous thing to do is leave things to take course by themselves. People die, not God's fault nor problem, is OUR issue and WE need to deal with it. Global Warming, Diseases, War, etc... is all our problem, not God's

  • Jack Henricksen

    And proof for God's existence is never going to be possible, but we can't prove against it either OK, so you skeptics can't just assume that God is not real because there is no proof for it, hey, before we used to believe that iPhones were impossible to make, that it was an insane idea, now look around, we used to believe Earth being round was crazy, now take a look, we used to believe men could never fly, now look,. See, nothing is impossible, so right now you should just consider the possibility

  • Shugga

    @ Jack Henricksen

    Your a funny dude aren't ya?
    First standing ground on the fact that (your words) 'IS a God'.

    And then going on to claim that while it cant be proven or disproven, we should just 'consider the possiility'.

    Your logic is not existant. Your process of thought is infantile, EVERY atheist has become an atheist because he/she EXTENSIVELY considered your little theoretical creator, and concluded that the evidence is strongly pointing towards the fact that life is ruled by the seemingly randomness of algorythems, and by the fact that gazillions of quarks shape gazillions of nucleuses (Forgive me if I got the grammatical form wrong, English is not my native language) that shape gazillions of photons, that shape gazillions of atoms, that eventually shape ALL MATTER ON EARTH, AND BEYOND.

    We can explain practically EVERY natural/chemical/physical/psychological event on the planet, and are beginning to understand more and more about the universe around us, and NEVER, NOT ONCE IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND, has anyone, anywhere found ANY evidence of your suposed god.

    Well, if you think that that isn't consideration through extensive scientific research, than your just even dumber than I'm currently giving you credit for.

    Give me 1, just 1 rational argument that attempts to rule science in favour of your side. I'm not talking about the falsified evidence that JC existed, i'm talking ANY, even remotely weak evidence that there is more to life/nature/universe than just cold hard physics. Remember, just 1, but it has to be accepted in the scientific community.

    I'll tell you why I ask this of you, you arrogant man who seems to think we atheists don't consider the possibility of a god, while we're all brought up in a religious world. I can give you THOUSANDS of examples of science conquering the workings of the world, finding logical explanations for occurances that where deemed 'divine' by fear-mongering religious nuts. I've never heard ANY argument from your side of thhe debate that is scientifically viable, so comon, let's bring it, once and for all!

  • Yavanna

    Jack

    "there is a God, but the God Christians believe in, is not real.

    So that's all the Abrahamic religions out the way then. You believe in God but more than half the planet are wrong. Which particular God did you pick to believe in? I'm guessing at Thor Mr Henricksen?

    "nothing is impossible,"

    I refuse to believe in I-Phones!!!!!

  • dre

    yavanna,

    there is only one god and nothing else but god. so when you identify yourself with a being instead of a continuously evolving process and don't accept yourself as who you are, well you know :). refusal to believe in iphones means denying the iphone's path to remembering what it really is. or something

  • Yavanna

    Dre

    Not true there have been a multitude of Gods and Jack proves this in that he says the the Christian God isn't the true one - hence there is more that one. Thor was a God, Zeus was a God - who are you or anyone to say they aren't still Gods? Perfectly rational question to ask a protagonist which particular God he believes in.

    As for the i-Phone thing - this was my humorous way of saying the I-Phone example was a poor one. I'm finding more and more that it is impossible to have a rational conversation with a theist therefore I donate some latitude on occasion. In fact I`m beginning to think it would be easier to answer theological questions by linking Mr Deity videos.

  • No More

    These four and going to hell.

  • Outofthebox

    I have read all the comments, most are quite interesting and funny. On the lighter side of things, I "believe" and have the most undying "faith" that god doesn't exit. A response is not necessary by the people of faith, no real point in arguing.

  • Jack Henricksen

    XDdddd i just wrote that to see what u would say, and Xd "these four are going to hell" xDdd i don't think they are, probably satan won't want them there =S Satan wants christians only, xD, i think lol

  • Jack Henricksen

    And the genocides, those were because of the flying spaghetti monster, so next time, becareful when you eat spaghetti xD or you might get filet by a hooker from God

  • Achems Razor

    Me-thinks it is "Banjo" time!

  • sue

    The bible is just another Mother Goose fairy tale. Every story in the bible has been plagiarized from a previous culture i.e., Budda, the egyptian sun god, and countless others!

    Check out "The Naked Truth" under the religion category of this wesite, 4th page!

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    lou, The Bible says: Heaven and earth will pass away, but, the word of God won't. Until Jesus comes, you will have a choice to repent. We will always have bad people, bad nations, kind'a like you will always have poor people,but, you also, will have a God given choice. Its your bet.

  • Barnabas252

    For the lovers of Richard Dawkins you may enjoy watching the documentary movie "Expelled" it is full of people with qualifications as good as and better than his, giving their views. Dawkins is also on the documentary and reveals his lack of proof for the very basis of his argument. His view has one major flaw even he on this documenary admits there is a creator that started life here on Earth albeit it is someone or something living in space. Mr Dawkins thank you from myself and my fellow chistians WE new there was a creator all the time, we just now have to decide is it, Spock Warf, Morf, or GOD.

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Sue, NO. You did not proof it. You are talking about nations and people who made their bidding and chose sin. Our God does not agree with this (this is why Jesus died) He gives you a choise and you decide. He says: Chose Life.
    Where was God? He was right there when you made the wrong choice. The conseguenses of sin is death eternal.
    Mrs. Sue, I need proof, not your blaming to our God on behalf of other peoples mistakes. PROOF.

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Shugga, Have Peace.

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Ockham, I was right, you are blind and you seam to like it. I get it, you made your choice. Thats youe bet. I will clean my feet on the door pat and not talk to you of God anymore.
    Peace.

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Yavanna, If you can't proof that God does not exist, that you being an athiest is poitless.

  • Achems Razor

    @ sue:

    Thank's for your link. If the religees, bible thumpers, etc: want proof of no Gods.

    Then I suggest Google "the naked truth by Jordan Maxwell" and watch, it is 110 min. long.

    You @ Miriam: especially should watch if you want proof!!
    Otherwise, go away.

  • Ddub

    @Miriam
    there won't be poor always if the Venus project has its way

    great doc. Love these discussions.

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Ddub,
    Mark my words: There will always be poor people.
    ..............Jesus said so, and, it shall come to pass.

  • whoopi goldberg

    bible belt fact #1:

    did you know they they have to wait marriage for sex?

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Bible Belt Comamment Fact.
    thou shall not commit adultery, Thou shall not commit fornication, says the Lord.

  • sue

    @Miriam

    If jesus died because of genocide.........
    Then according to the bible god is the originator of genocide as evidenced in noah and the ark!! What a cruel, psychotic god you have! If he were human, he'd be in jail awaiting his death penalty!

    Do you have any original thoughts of your own--one that your priest didn't tell you to say! You are just a puppet of the chain letter/pyramid scheme of religion! You are brainwashed!

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Sue,
    Jesus Died For Everybody Sin.
    Salvation comes thru Him. John-3:16
    My belives are based on scripture (bible)
    Nobody force me. My God won't want me that way. He gave me the gift of Salvation and for that i'm thankful.

    Do you have someone or something you base your athiest non-believe on???

  • sue

    Miriam,

    You just don't want to admit that god is the creator of genocide, so your saying he died for everybodys sin, so does that include god's sin of creating genocide?

    Religion was created to produce good behavior in people, just as santa claus was created to produce good behavior in children. Man created god, not the other way around!

    My basis for my belief, or in your words "non-belief" is the fact that I can have my own thoughts and live a moral life without the fear of a cruel god and I believe you can too. You can't tell me that you didn't know the difference between good and bad before you accepted christ!?

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Sue,
    When you say that God is the crator of genocide, are you refering to the God you say does not exist?
    Sue, God can not go agaisnt who He is not.I say He died for the sin of men and women, because,I was one to sin before,but, He safe me and forgave my sin.
    i have lots of thoughts and opinions, but, the will not get me to heaven and Gods words will. Jesus Loves me and you. He can't lie. After He call me,I Excepted and know i'm save.
    Jesus call the religious people "two face"
    We are part of His body, His own, His church. Nothing you say can change that. Did you not know? Nothing can separade us from His Love.

  • Raymond

    Hi everyone, I'm an east Asian and we like to analyze things in a pragmatic way. I know that science made technologies and technologies vastly improved our lives. But we are not sure how we could exploit religion so we gave it up and focused our attention on exploiting technologies.

  • sue

    Miriam,
    I'm talking about the "story" of noah in your bible--did god not create a genocide by flooding the earth and "killing" all that was not on the ark? Why would a loving and forgiving god do that?
    Also, by the fact that god or jesus forgave you , does that mean that your sin does not exist and that you can not sin again? According to the bible, jesus said that your family and friends that do not believe in him should be killed by you, by your own hand. So is it a sin not to kill someone for jesus? and could you do it?

  • Shugga

    @Miriam

    Really? Thats the best you can do?
    That is your response to my post, which offered you numerous points of interest on which you couldve responded intelligently, and thats the BEST you can do? That proves me so much about the lack of intellect in you sheep.

    Ill keep it short and simple, there are 2 basic truths that are obvious here,

    1) None of the so-called people of faith has actually taken the time to watch this doc, they just come out of the woodwork to throw their cult bullshit in our face, without even showing the slightest bit of respect.

    2) NONE OF YOU RELIGIOUS NUTS HAS GIVEN A SINGLE SCIENTIFIC ARGUMENT, how pathetic is that, not one, nada, zip, and you know why? Because religion is not a science, it's a piece of fairytale made to control you bunch of pathetic sheep.

    SMITE THE SHEPHARD, AND THE SHEEP WILL BE SCATTERED

    I'm leaving the debate now, because there's just one side who's actually willing to debate, the other side is just making up stuff while going along, ridiculous.

  • Yavanna

    Barbabas.

    I assume when you say we should watch "Expelled" you are referring to the Doc here on TDF "Expelled - No intelligence allowed." That is to say the attempt to make creationists to look more intelligent by tagging it with terms like "intelligence" and "science."

    You might wish to read the discussion on that doc but furthermore watch a 16 part debunk of it on YouTube called

    "Expelled Debunk - Flunked"

    The maker of this video takes your so called scientists apart one by one. It is always worth examining your sources don't you think?

    In answer to your question about Richard Dawkins. When he suggested life COULD have been started by a creator, I imagine he was referring to “Panspermia” (Plagerised from another discussion *cough* sorry Achems :P) In any case Dawkins was just being open minded in discussion. You should try that sometimes.

    ---------------------------------------------
    Miriam

    "Yavanna, If you can’t proof that God does not exist, that you being an athiest is poitless."

    Did you watch this doc?? You clearly read my comment;

    "It is not for “us” to disprove the existence of god. That cannot be done. Can you disprove the existence of fairies and leprechauns or Santa?
    The onus of proof is on you."

    but lack the mental capacity to understand it. Therefore trying to understand the conversation between the four horsemen would be quite beyond you.

    I`ll try again. I cannot PROVE the non-existence of ANYTHING let alone whichever god you chose to believe in. You don't even know the meaning and definition of Atheism because if you did you would also know that YOU are also an atheist. Unless that is you are hedging your bets and worshipping / believing in every God ever invented. (Just in case.)

    In any case Miriam this prove god doesn't exist argument is far better made by Ed Current on You Tube. Search for:

    "God Doesn't Exist? Prove It!"

    I hope this helps you to formulate your ideas better.

    PS - no more scripture please - discuss the Doc, argue points within the Doc. Quoting scripture and throwing out sayings apparently made by two thousand year old fossils doesn't count.

  • Achems Razor

    @ Miriam:

    The big JC. is nothing but a mushroom, namely Amanita Muscaria, the fly agaric, the "mana" from heaven. the little round things, etc:
    check it out, it is in the bible.

    That gives religious epiphanies, that is how all religions started.
    Not recommending you or anybody ingests it. If you do not know what you are doing it may kill you.

    But that's all she wrote! It is mentioned in my link that apparently you did not watch.

    And the whole religion thing is strictly astrological.
    The only God that people are actually worshiping is the "Sun"
    "Gods Sun"-SON, the giver of light! Now and always!

  • Yavanna

    If you have neither the time or the attention span to watch the 16 part debunk of expelled I can offer you a video on youtube on one of my subscription:

    "A Scientist's Critique of Ben Stein's Expelled" by DonExodus2

    I highly recommend DonExodus2's videos as he is good at explaining sometimes complicated science in a way that even a numb nut like can understand. One I recommend and is on topic is:

    "Lets Test Them: Evolution vs. Creationism"

    One of the most interesting things about the film expelled is that one of the REAL scientists (PZ Meyer) was invited to the screening and then removed by security at the request of the "film" maker on the day.

    [You Tube] "PZ Myers: Expelled from Expelled! - Richard Dawkins"

    In which Meyers and Dawkins discuss this utter hypocrisy and the bastardisation of a Harvard produced science documentary.

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    I see you have an issue with Noah.
    God is Holy and as a Holy God He will judge sin, but, since you claim to know the story of Noah, then maybe you remember that the people in that time had 120 years of Noah preaching repentance and they, Sue, made the same wrong decition you did, their bet was sin, so, God respected their choice and decided to go forward with what He had told Noah, He was going to do,,,and then the flood took place.
    Sue, I do not know what Bible your reading, my family will have the same choice's I've been given to repent and they will have tomake a decition. Sin is around us 24/7 but the sins I had before coming to Christ, those were forgiving. My call is to make sure that when these other sins come around I make a wise decition and not fall. As far as parents killing their other family members,not in scripture. You might want to re-read whaever Bible verse you are talking about.

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Achems Razor,
    Its O.K. if you do not understand the Bible when you rad it, this is normal for unbelievers. The Bible says:John-1:1
    In the biguining was the word (Jesus) and the wrd was with God ( The Father) and the word was God (Jesus).
    You know what I see when I look up, Cotton candy.There is no surprise in your unbelieve,but,its funny, you see, My God created the clouds and also, the good tasting muchrooms
    My Saviour is the Son of God and Yes, He also, created the stars that you see in the astrology Center.

  • sue

    Mariam,
    You really think someone has the physical ability, after preaching for 120 years, to build the ark, collect two of every species of animal and the food required to feed everyone?

    I could go on with how there are animals in certain places that exist only there--(like the Galapagos Islands and other islands throughout the world)--and only there, but these are the types of independent thoughts you are incapable of having to question what you've been told! YOU'RE A JESUS ZOMBIE!!! I feel sorry for you but I'm not trying to "convert" you, only give you something to think about, to question what you've been told. I've obviously been wasting my time!

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Sue,
    I forgot, you don't read scripture very well. 120 years is a long time and Noah was noy by himself,he had 3 sons and the power of the Almighty( God was with them). What is imposible for you and everybody else, is very possible with God.
    Never the less, the flood happened.
    Sue, i'm someone whos been save by Gods grace. Nothing in heaven or in earth or under earth can separate me from God, not even you.

  • Will

    Agnosticism is the only rational approach.

    The problem with the bully boys of Atheism (Dawkins and Hitchens) is that they conflate faith with religion. They also fall into the same trap as fundamentalists, talking about God as though it is some tiny entity that cares only about the Earth. If God exists, then he's universal, made from and of the stuff of the universe itself. Cosmic and nebulous in the truest sense of the words.

    I think Atheism is probably true... but we can't possibly know the nature of whether or not God exists until we know the nature of the universe. It really is as simple as that.

  • Achems Razor

    @ Will:

    You do have a good point, Since we, and all things are made from star stuff, supernova explosions.

    The point of origin and questions, whether there is any God-Gods, lies with the Universe "before" the singularity. Before the Quantum leap. Before time.

    Nothing to do with any of our worldly God-Gods paradigms,
    or any of our suppositions of the Earths 4 billions of years, or even in the 13.8 billion years or more of the Universe, could be infinity, who knows?

  • JESUS

    Miriam,

    I was all wrong. you are wrong too.

    now stop your nonsense and find a real purpose to your life

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Jesus,

    What ever do you mean???

  • Yavanna

    JESUS speaketh!

    ask your pastor what he meant

  • Yavanna

    Will - superb comments

    But with regards to the bully boys of atheism - they would all if pressed admit to an agnostic side. Because true scientists cannot disprove the unknown for sure. I think (from memory) Dawkins stated when pushed he was 99pct atheist - or 9.5 I forget.

    Oh and Sue - I forget to mention - Get a grip hun your c*** at scripture KK!

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Shugga,

    Respect is something you earn, but, it seams as you can't debate without cursing, were you educated this way?

  • sue

    Yavanna,

    If you're going to mention something, at least say it coherently, in English. Or did you forget to tell us you speak in tongues? It sounds like you're trying to tell me to have sex with the bible, with the...grip...c***...scriptures, WTF?

  • Yavanna

    Erm no Sue. I was "speaking" coherently. The word that is apparently considered naughty rhythms with RAP. It was an attempt at humour and a sideways dig at the troll.

    Dont take yourself so frickin seriously.

  • sue

    Hun your c*** at scripture KK, still doesn't make sense!

  • sue

    Yavanna,

    I guess this website doesn't like the word that rhymes with rap, because I said that "hun your c*** at scripture KK, still doesn't make sense! But it is "awaiting moderation" because I spelled out the word..funny that frickin is ok though!

  • sue

    Yavanna,

    Seriously, I would like to know what your comment means along with the "sideways dig at the troll" Am I the troll?

    You can't learn if you don't ask questions!

    Sometimes your own lingo is cool, but not when you want people to understand you.

  • Yavanna

    OK Sue - lets clear up this misunderstanding. First yes - I apologise. I was talking in the vernacular, my local lingo if you like - I`m a Brit. I had had a bottle of red last night so my sentence structure and typing was a bit lazy too - I can see why my messy sentence doesn't make sense without a comma inserted. With the C*** insertion by the moderation it looks like quite a rude sentence - trust me I never use the big "C" word unless it somehow involves a conversation about my ex wife :)

    SO before this gets any more silly here goes.....:

    "Get a grip hun your c*** at scripture KK!"

    "Get a grip" is an idiom in this case used to mean "to begin to deal with someone or something difficult or challenging in a sensible way."

    (This was an attempt on my part to be humorous and ironic - scripture is neither challenging or difficult to refute and to even bother doing so I`ve found to be a waste of time.)

    The rest of the sentence should have read as "you are awful at scripture".

    Oh and "hun" is short for honey - just an affectionate way I speak sorry.

    The whole sentence was meant to be a playful and sarcastic jibe at the troll (Miriam - not you) She had previously attacked you for not being properly conversant in whichever ancient scriptures she has chosen to believe in.

    The meaning being Oh Sue! How can you be so stupid about scripture and this was meant to be ironic. Going by your previous comments I assumed you are at least agnostic but possibly like me you have some knowledge of scripture and other such junk. This unfortunately is somewhat of a necessity for dealing with the clowns.

    Its so complicated to have to explain my sense of humour but I hope I have made more sense now and will try to be less flippant in future.

    And yes - weird about frickin!

  • sue

    Yavanna,

    Thanks for the clarification, and you're right I am awful at scripture. I didn't grow up in a religious family, I went to church with friends and when "all" of my questions were answered/countered with miracles, I quit going. I do not believe in god or gods in any shape or form.

    It all boils down to the fear of dying. To the religious, it is easier to accept that there is a party place, paved in gold, to go after they die--so they don't need to fear what happens when/after they die. I know when I die, there is nothing else for me, but for my family and friends there is a MEMORY of me. The afterlife is only a MEMORY of a life! By living a moral life, which can be done without the fear of god or the devil, I know that my "afterlife/memory" will be of the love, happiness and fun I shared with everyone.

  • whoopi goldberg

    this documentary would be more entertaining if pauly shore was the fifth horsemen

  • charlesovery

    Seriously Whoopi? You couldn't find no validation in their thoughts at all? If not I guess it is fair for me to say that I expected a better value of intelligence from a woman I thought was extremely intelligent herself. Was I wrong?

  • Dr. Dunkleosteus

    Some how, upon clicking on this video, I just KNEW there would be an endless stream of comments arguing religion vs. science. Bantering opinions back and forth, with no one making ground in either direction. Truely, this subject is one where an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.

    I am a mere college scholar, recently graduated in the field of studio art. This is a field whose history is steeped in religion. However my current work is based in science; I am very interested in Chaos Theory, fractal geometry, and Transcendentalism. During my time as a student, I was confronted with both sides of this arguement. My field required me to observe the world around me, research the past/present in an attempt to discover/stimulate aspects of my own existance, and to express them through my art. I don't claim to know answers. Answers are for people twice, three times my years, who have devoted their entire lives to attaining answers. I merely wish to propose questions. Good questions. Eloquent questions. Questions that don't need to be answered, but merely considered.

    I also don't pretend to wave my modest academic success in the face of anyone, especially considering there may be those in this discussion whose level of learning far exceeds my own, and possibly in a more relevant field, but I would hope that I come across as a mind who is intereted in learning and discovering, not mindless following. So, all that being said:

    To scientists and followers of science: How do you suppose to argue with an indoctrinated world view that is millenia old, repeated over and over (in slightly different forms) by all nations of the world, typically taught from an early age by the passing of knowledge from older generations to younger, and in which the primary teaching is that of "Faith": a system of intelligence which REQUIRES the person to believe without question, evidence, and without inquiry? Simply, it is a system which organizes itself to perfectly block out any world view that is different or contradictory. How do you argue with something like this? How can it be possible?

    To theoligists and followers of religion: How do you suppose to argue with a system who claims to know nothing for certain and who is always open to different theories, updated information, and revolutions in thinking? Science is a system that requires analyitical thinking, research, and endless experimentation, testing, re-testing, and theorizing. How can you so effortlessly dismiss, disprove, and discredit such a noble attempt to learn about the world around us? How can you?

    I feel that there is a fundamental split in the minds of humans. When faced with an idea, one which cannot be proven or disproven, the human mind will do curious things. Some will assume the idea is true because it can not be proven to be false. This group will be affirmed in their thinking by what others with similar views tell them and because their
    "faith" in it gives them peace of mind and their lives meaning.

    Others will assume it is false on the basis that it can not be proven to be true. This group, although it assumes the idea is false, still strives to know (to some certainty) wether their view is justifiable (in the least) and to a greater extent whether their view is rational or perhaps preferable.

    Knowing myself, I know that I am not satisfied with the concept of faith. I am more than willing to give up my sense of peace of mind to question my purpose and reason for my existence. I may not know my purpose until the day I die... I may NEVER know my purpose, but I honestly feel that a life spent in search of purpose is not one that was wasted or lived in vain.

    What could be more admirable? More honest? More noble? I ask you that.

  • Dr. Dunkleosteus

    I must also say to the vast majority of people in this discussion, I am quite impressed with the intelligence displayed here.

    To Achem's Razor, I am very impressed with your knowledge of the psychadelic mushroom and its ties to religion, Also, of the connections of all religions to sun worship. I feel there is a lot to that.

    Although there's lots of joking, bs'ing, and mockery, this is one of the more rational comment-based discussions I've ever participated in, especially one on religion.

    If you like this one, you should try a discussion on cannabis... a complete s*** show there undoubtably.

  • Dominic

    I would like to know who out of all the people leaving comments actually read the whole bible? Has anyone studied any other religions either than their own? Have you ever traveled around the world and met people on the other end of the world? or have you been stuck in "your own world", love only one sports team? Listen only to certain music, without even an interest on knowing what other people are thinking? I'm not saying you have to "believe" that what they are saying is true but have you even ever tried to listen just to hear what they have to say? Oh here's a fact I know a priest who has never read a bible... I'm not saying that he's a bad guy. I think that if there is a God it would not believe but it would know that we are all stupid.. because we are fighting instead of trying to understand. I believe in God and please if you think you know better.. Stop using the name in vane. God is the creator. No one even said God was a man.. It is highly unlikely God is a man because I'm sure a man did not create the earth.

  • Dominic

    If you don't understand anything about how life works you shouldn't try to make such powerful statements. I wonder who here knows more about astrology, history, physics, water, economics around the world, religion, the sun, archeology etc.?

  • Dr. Dunkleosteus

    ^ A lot of truth in that. Many Christians I've talked to are EXTREMELY ignorant of other religions. They don't even know the basic principles of other religions. If I were seeking religion, I would research as much as I could about every one to make sure I was choosing the correct (or best) one for me.

    I don't seek religion and I STILL research as much as I can about all religions.

    God, if real, certainly would not be a man. Man is unique to the planet Earth like all other "Earthlings" (another good doc if you can stomach it).

    To me, if there is or ever was something that that could be called a creator, its form is something we know absolutely nothing about. None of us.

    A thought: God could be described as the catalyst that initiated the big bang. No one, not even the most intelligent scientists know why the big bang occured. We accept today that the event occured, but no one has any clue as to why it occured. I am more than happy with thinking of God in this way: As a force that brought everything into being.

    My (completely HYPOTHETICAL) question is: If we discover that the creationary force that initiated the big bang and spawned our universe was merely the collision of two proto-universes, would the religious community accept this event as God? I don't think they would. They would then say "Well a force must have made these two entities collide and that force is God"... Then, if science discovers that some form of super gravity was the force responsible, would the religious community accept that force as God? I don't think that they would.

    No matter what science discovers about the circumstances leading up to and pertaining to our current placement in space and time, religion will never be satisfied with the results. They expect a being, something intelligent, someONE that they'll be able to meet when they die who will explain who "he" is and why "he" decided to create life and human beings. That is the only force that religion will satisfy.

  • Dominic

    Everything is made of atoms. It is said God is everywhere did you ever stop to think that God is an atom or all atoms at that? God is everywhere God is everything God created you and all living things. When you die do all your atoms die? Physics came from the bible, if you don't understand physics then you don't understand the bible. If you don't fallow religion from around the world and archeology then you don't know history and you do not understand this world and life you live in because it is all intertwined, you know nothing of today and you should have nothing to say.

  • Dr. Dunkleosteus

    Originally posted by: Dominic

    [quote]If you don’t understand anything about how life works you shouldn’t try to make such powerful statements. I wonder who here knows more about astrology, history, physics, water, economics around the world, religion, the sun, archeology etc.?[/quote]

    Forgive me, but even if I was a complete imbecile, I could still try to make powerful statements.

    The fact that you found my statement powerful proves that I am not an imbecile.

    I merely wanted to make perfectly clear to all readers and posters that I don't CLAIM to understand anything about how life works. The mere fact that I am still alive, that I have survived to this day to write, in decent grammar and syntax this message, on this page bears proof that I have figured out, even if only minutely, how life "works".

    The truth of the matter is that no one knows how the world works. Not you, I, or anyone. Even the most gifted minds like Albert Einstein were only able to grasp fleeting fragments of the truths about our universe.

    I feel that your post was extremely arrogant and dismissing. Why must we be know about "astrology, history, physics, water, economics around the world, religion, the sun, archeology etc." to make powerful statements about these subjects.

    Does knowledge in those fields entitle us to formulate opinions worthy of debate? The most uneducated man on the planet should still have the ability to ask these questions. It is just as much an issue that pertains to him as it does to the most educated mind walking the Earth today.

    If I am wrong, then please, by all means, offer suggestion and debate. As I said in my preliminary post, I gladly give up my peace of mind for the possibility that I am wrong.

  • Dominic

    I have seen "Earthlings" it is very good. All Documentaries are good even if they are all you have to do is listen to them you don't have to believe everything. It's like not finishing a book and calling it bad or not reading the whole Bible and say you believe or learning about one religion and claiming you know everything or claiming someone a color and not a women or man. Maybe we're all wrong and we should leave it at that rather then claim someONE is wrong. Atleast just learn about what you are saying.

  • Dominic

    @Dr. Dunkleosteus

    I wasn't talking about you. You should know that =)

  • Dominic

    I think you are very wise for someone who hasn't read the ((("Bible"))) but some people are trying to make it clear that they are the only ones that are right, if you know what I mean.

  • Dr. Dunkleosteus

    ^ No harm done. Again I am impressed by the knowledge presented in this discussion. I like your view of God as a Creationary Force. I also like your view that people need to experience other religions and other ways of life to get a more "worldly" view before passing down judgement. So few people in my life share that opinion, so I commend you greatly for that insight.

  • Dominic

    @Dr. Dunkleosteus

    What I meant about powerful statements was towards the ones saying people are going to hell or what not but you're right you're statements were also powerful and I find were well said.

  • Dominic

    Exactly, why must we say that people are wrong? Why can't we just exchange ideas? Because nobody knows the answer and at least that way we can get somewhere. Atheists are not going to hell I have Atheist friends I also have Christian friends and Catholic friends, Buddhist friends and Jewish friends and no one is going to hell.

  • Dominic

    and you shouldn't fear the Devil and Hell more then God, so, you should say God will smite you! by the way...God is almighty so God should be scarier =)

  • Achems Razor

    @ Dr. Dunkleosteus:

    Your viewpoints are very well put.

    looking forward to many discourses with you.

    By the way your name, any reference to Dunkleosteus Terrelli,
    the most terrifying creature alive in the Devonian "Age Of Fishes"
    about 360 million years ago?

    @ Dominic:

    You said it in a nutshell, most religion is run on fear, they say God is love, and yet you must fear God , why is that? do religious people fear there parents also? Why should God be scary?? are they scared if they do not tow the line and be good sheeple he will snuff them out?

  • Hardy

    Two possible things: 1. There is no God. 2. There is a God. The first can be elaborated on, but the in the second case, one thing has to be clarified: WE DONT KNOW WHO IT IS.

    The danger of organized religions is that them CLAIM to know who the (possibly existent) allmighty being is- which makes them adversaries and dangerous to the population of the whole world.

    Science isnt the complete answer to everything, nor is religion. I dont think there IS a "correct" answer to any of these questions.

    Why do I stick with science? Because it doesnt kill anybody. I see religion creating hatred constantly all over the world, because each one claims to be all knowing, which they objectively arent. The beauty of science is that it isnt absolute - theories are constantly questioned and replaced by better ones. Its a system of free will and thought, which is what I feel religion lacks.

    In essence, I dont condemn anybody for believing in a God. What I do condemn is declaring oneself a "christian" or "muslim" or "jew", if you see what I mean. All this diversion created by labels of organized religion only leads to hatred between people.

    This is why I tell religious people - call yourself "theists"! Take the smarter choice and stop claiming to KNOW. Because you dont, just as little as science knows.

    I declare myself as an agnostic in every aspect possible, sticking to the more convenient and intelligent way of life.

  • Kerry

    Religion is too embedded in society for any change to take place without a global change in consciousness.
    Coming from a 'new' country (New Zealand) that is not embedded in religious history, I was astounded as I travelled to see the medieval blindness that still captures the majority of society in most countries.
    The Venus Project would be an excellent social experiment...

  • Dr. Dunkleosteus

    @ Achems Razor:

    It IS in reference to the prehistoric "armored" fish. It is one of my favorite prehistoric sea creatures. Clearly I've stumbled onto a nice group of intellectuals.

    @ Hardy:

    I really like your view as well. I forgot to include in my post the issue that "theists" (I like this term also) seem to have somehow come to the conclusion that they have a special relationship with their God of choice. It is one thing to say that you believe a creationary force exsists, but it is quite another to say that you can converse with this force and if you ask nice enough, it will help you with problems in your life. May as well be praying to the clouds for rain...

  • charlesovery

    @Dr. Dunk

    you stated:

    To scientists and followers of science: How do you suppose to argue with an indoctrinated world view that is millenia old, repeated over and over (in slightly different forms) by all nations of the world, typically taught from an early age by the passing of knowledge from older generations to younger, and in which the primary teaching is that of “Faith”: a system of intelligence which REQUIRES the person to believe without question, evidence, and without inquiry? Simply, it is a system which organizes itself to perfectly block out any world view that is different or contradictory. How do you argue with something like this? How can it be possible?

    To theoligists and followers of religion: How do you suppose to argue with a system who claims to know nothing for certain and who is always open to different theories, updated information, and revolutions in thinking? Science is a system that requires analyitical thinking, research, and endless experimentation, testing, re-testing, and theorizing. How can you so effortlessly dismiss, disprove, and discredit such a noble attempt to learn about the world around us? How can you?

    Even though I am not a scientist or at least claim to be one, your question Dr. Dunk to scientist rose some eyebrows for me. It isn't the religion that I am willing to argue with it is the beliefs in which "christians" use to have "faith" or what they believe gives them faith. These beliefs about "christianity" are: The Holy Trinity, Jesus was the Messiah that is the only true savior, God gave up his son for us because he loves us unconditionally, living a life that fears god is a humble one, the ten commandments are the only true laws, the word was in the beginning and the word was true and good and Jesus was the word, Satan is the bad guy that runs around on earth with the sole purpose of pursuading man from the path of rightousness, Heaven, Hell, the angel of Lucifer, Satan was the creator of sin and the first to sin, Judas was a bad guy that betrayed Jesus...and so on and so on! All these beliefs are contradictive and hyocritical in the bible itself, therefore there is no such thing as "christianity" nor "faith" within it. If you would like for me to eloborate on these then join the forum that I posted for this documentary and I will freely explain.

    The problem is that people who believe in it only pick out what is good for them and naturally teach themselves to block out these contradictions. This is why "faith" is a blind "faith" at best.

    To further answer your question Dr. Dunk, the bible is nothing but a book of anceint history and philosophies that coincide with what was going on at that time. Most of these philosophies were built only on superstitions and did not partake on the theory of beliefs in the beginning. There is enough evidence to show that forming an actual "dogmatic" belief didn't occur until the religion became organized around 66 A.D. Around 180 A.D. bishops of the Catholic Church formalated the bible around the popular beliefs of the time and that is why there is only 4 gospels instead of the 30 or so that was found. This shows that the religion was centralized to a specific belief system that was created by man and not a god.

    Please join the forum on this documentary to further discussion!

  • Reb

    Miriam, do you believe in Satyrs? You know the mythical creature who is half man and half goat? If not, why not? Also, you can't demand people to prove there is no god. I would say the ball is in your court to prove there is, who he is and where he is. You can no more prove there is a god than anyone can prove there is not. You either put up or shut up and stop pointing your finger at others who have the right to believe anyway they damn choose.

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Reb,
    I'm sorry, did I hit a nerve???
    If and anli,If you can read correctly, you made have notice that, I was answering question address to me. But, if you miss it, than, thats your bet.
    I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit--The one God, creator of heaven and earth and All men kind. (if you must know)
    My believe comes from the word of God--The Bible.
    Its just that, it seams like you Athiest people, are not satisfy with the 'FAITH' description that I gave. I have no problem with what you or anybody else believes, thats your call. I can't make you believe what I believe, even God Himself does not want you this way. Believe in Him or don't. Peace.

  • Reb

    Miriam stated the commandment 'Thou shalt not commit adultery' that never existed. Moses never showed that first set of commandments to the people, he broke them and all they had was his word. When god called him to bring two more tables of stone this is what god said to him:

    Exodus, Chapter 34, verse 1:
    And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakes.

    Here god clearly says he will write the words that were on the first tables that doofus lying moses broke.

    Here they are and please inform us where your adultery commandment is.

    Ex. 34

    17. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
    18. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.
    19. All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.
    20. But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.
    21. Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
    22. And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
    23. Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the Lord God, the God of Israel.
    24. For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the Lord thy God thrice in the year.
    25. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the Passover be left unto the morning.
    26. The first of the firstiruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

    Furthermore, this set of commandments are the only ones that are called the Ten Commandments.

    (28. And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And He wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.)

    The people never saw these either or they would have known moses was a liar. He built a second ark and placed them in it and forbid anyone to touch it. For someone who claims to be a ‘christian’ your knowledge of the bible is non-existent.

    Why don't you ever hang the real commandments anywhere or even speak of them? This shows what a bunch of lying l****** you people truly are.

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Reb,

    When God gave Moses the ten commandments, ALL of them were writting on the stone tablets. When Moses went the socound time up, they were re-writting. Nothing changed.

    YOUR NOT CONVINCING.

  • Reb

    Nothing changed?! Did you even read them? The second set is nothing like the first.

    Your spelling is on a 4th grade level and your reading comprehension is zero.

  • Achems Razor

    @ Reb:

    Sure glad to see you on these threads, you are the master against these religee's. No one can say it better than you.

    I think you sent "Miriam-baby" crying.
    She hasn't a hope in hell in even trying to do combat with you.

  • Reb

    You are too s***** to figure out how to use a dictionary. If you had any sense or any pride you would use the free ones on the net. How lazy and sorry does someone have to be to neglect an education? There is no excuse for such ignorance.

  • Reb

    Achem, can you believe that she couldn't tell the difference between the two sets of commandments? People no longer have pride in anything at all. This is not that way to get good attention. When folks talk about something, they need to know what they are talking about.

  • Reb

    Miriam, I will miss 'yor weel wroten poests as I ain't nuver laffed so hared in me hole liff'.

    BTW, your answers are almost as pitiful as your spelling.

  • Achems Razor

    @ Reb

    It is plain to see that you got her all flustered, she does not know what to say anymore.
    Anything anybody tried to explain to her on these threads, went in one ear and out the other.

    There is no talking our reasoning with these type of people.
    Plainly uneducated.

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Reb,

    ...............GOD BLESS........................

  • Dr. Dunkleosteus

    charlesovery,

    Thank you for your well-thought and well-executed response.

    I agree with you about faith being blind, especially to the point where followers must blind themselves in order to digest all the contradictory facets that Christianity contains.

    I also agree with the concept of the bible containing contradictions, within which Christians are forced to pick and choose the parts which suit their arguments and justify their belief systems. I think there is a very large percentage of Christians who either do not know or choose to ignore the fact that the bible has been re-written and re-translated MULTIPLE times since its first initial conception by rulers and leaders who wanted to distort the book to favor anything they wanted.

    The fact that there are multiple versions of the bible and multiple "branches" or off-shoots of Christianity: Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Morman, the list goes on; it is obvious that THEY can't agree on anything, so why would any intelligent person allow themselves to become "blinded" (and it truely is a blinding of the intellect) by these church figures?

    How can theists see these separate groups, who disect the bible and each feel that their version is correct, think that there is even a SHRED of truth to ANYTHING that ANY of the church figures say?

    I would immediately become suspect of the motives of that "branch" and of Christianity as a whole. Then you have to remember that Christianity is just one of many different religions. So how does one land on Christianity out of all the religions of the world, then land on one specific branch of Christianity? It's choice of course, but doesn't that merely serve to prove that organized religion cannot be taken as ultimate truth? With so many options, it only serves to discredit organized religion.

    Several times, by several of my theist friends, I've asked this same question and I get an almost identical response every time: "Oh, well I don't consider myself affiliated with one particular version and I believe what I believe and not what anyone tries to tell me." or some variation of that.

    ...I sit there, absolutely slack-jawed. The same people who say this are still choosing to attend a certain church every Sunday, still read from a specific book, which means that they've made a decission (whether it was concious or not, imposed by others or not) to follow a specific version of Christianity. Most of these friends are young (mid 20's), middle to upper-middle class, and who have been brought up in religious homes. So even if they aren't forced to attend church, they have that obligation for the sake of their parents to attend. I myself have attended several masses, some strict Catholic churches and some extremely lax Christian churches with no declared denomination. The latter is becoming extremely popular with middle and upper-middle class America. They want an environment that is comfortable and relaxing where they can sit and re-affirm their beliefs without the damnation and heavy preaching other branches offer. In essence they want to be a part of a community and feel the comfort that being in a group offers, but they want to give as little effort as possible. Maybe put a couple bucks in the collection basket because it makes them feel charitable, but ultimately they're there to show everyone that they can get dressed up in nice clothes and devote an hour or two to something deemed important.

    It is such a contradictory behavior I have trouble writing about it as I feel I go on and on, chasing the motives that drive this behavior, but the core reasons are always the same: Desire to feel loved, desire to feel important, desire to be included in a community, and desire to fill the spiritual hole they have with something quick and easy and low-effort.

    Christianity, the fast-food of the religious world.

    Call me a Transcendentalist, call me an Atheist. I'm okay with being called Agnostic, but Agnostic means you are open to the concept of RELIGION. Simply put, I am not open to Relgion. It only serves to keep us separated and fighting while the people in power run away with all the money. Just like George Carlin said about governments and the ruling class: they keep the middle class fighting and working to distract them while they take all the money. The lower class is only there to scare the middle class and keep them working.

    If theists could only move past Religion all together, then real progress for man kind can be achieved. They don't have to stop believing in a Creator, like others have said, even Atheists have that openness. Theists think that the scientific community is trying to remove them of their beliefs, when in actuality they only want to cut the ties to the people in power who rob them and leave them feeling spiritualy un-satisfied. You don't need a preacher, you don't need a book, you don't need religion. Just look around you and form your own opinion of what is going on. That is the only way you will achieve the level of satisfaction you're looking for.

  • Hardy

    Wow, finally a few people open to intelligent discussions here!

    @Miriam: (Trying to keep a mannered discussion going here) Why do you consider yourself a christian? Why not, say, a muslim?

    @Dr. Dunkleosteus: Very good response. My thoughts on this part:

    "[...] The core reasons are always the same: Desire to feel loved, desire to feel important, desire to be included in a community, and desire to fill the spiritual hole they have with something quick and easy and low-effort."

    Interestingly enough, most educated theists I have met acknowledge exactly these points. They have enough self-awareness to state exactly these reasons as why they believe in God. Its a scary thought that we are alone in the universe, and it is hard to live with the possibility of having no evident reason for your own existence.

    Even more interestingly enough, most uneducated theists do not see it this way! The discussion is almost always stopped at that point, and ended with a "god bless" - as if we were hopeless cases and not worth the time.

    Btw. - I'll remember that fast-food comparison, proves to be pretty true.

  • Yavanna

    I love the fast food comparison. Mc'Xianity!

    This reminds me of another favourite analogy - "Salad Bar Christians" - Basically people who cherry pick the bits they like from a religion or find one which best fits what they want.

    One thing not mentioned is how easy it is for theists to switch from one religion to another. This always strikes me as a massive hypocrisy - these are putting themselves above their previously perfect God yet will forever preach smugly about sin and their morality. Sometimes this is because of an upcoming marriage. Other times perhaps they have a moment of clarity, see that their faith set doesn't fit reality, yet instead of becoming free thinking, they return to the Salad Bar to get a new one.

    Some big points in this discussion. One of my favourites is that if all theists could at least agree with each other; then people like me might treat them all with a bit more respect and credibility. Put a thousand atheists on an island and they would agree 90% with each other. Put a thousand theists together; 10% would agree, the rest would be either subjugated or dead.

    I think modern society could have removed at least some religions, after all this isn't impossible. Think how many small religions have been buried by the tidal wave of Islam and Xianity. If it wasn't done by the sword it was with reaching out a hand with food to a starving peasant, pulling it away if they didn't thank Jesus.

    The world could easily educate the masses, as well as feed them. They choose not to. Religion is far too convenient a population control - even today.

    I`d like to stir the hornet's nest a little here and mention freemasonry. Because I believe this is the gap filler used by "the elites." To join you must believe in "God" or "a supreme being. This is the only question you are asked when approached to join. They have elaborate rituals, bible type rule books and a hierarchy much like a priesthood.

  • Yavanna

    We should have a naughty or nice list!

  • Reb

    I will take a place on the naughty list, thank you. Sorry Vlatko.

  • Al

    Well I think it’s arrogant and ignorant to decisively say GOD doesn't exist, or GIN for that matter. As it is a logically impossibility to prove a negative (no existence)and as rational being it’s clear that there are many things we don't know (probably other dimensions as some scientific theories suggest) On the other hand I think it’s a logical deduction that a singular (GOD) exist. Finally I didn't see them offering any alternative theory.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    Ok Al. Let's make an experiment. The only thing we have to do is to replace word GOD with UNICORN and reread what you said.

    Proving Unicorn's no-existence is logically impossible so logical deduction would be that UNICORNS do exist.

    The argument above is fallacy and you know that.

    As many people in their comments said: The burden of proof for GOD'S existence lies on the back of the ones who say that GOD do exists and not the opposite way around.

    You say: GOD exists.
    I say: I don't believe it. Give me a proof.
    You say: I don't have a proof, I just believe, but since you also can't prove that GOD doesn't exist, then he must exist.

  • squid

    Man Vlatko, you are obviously not a fan of the movie legend ;)

  • Al

    OK Valtko, the logical deduction I meant was the singularity of GOD (whether a Unicorn or whatever you conceive GOD to be) I would be very interested to hear your alternative theory to a single (GOD)

  • Al

    Valtko Thanks for the site its the best

  • Yavanna

    Why does the leap of faith have also to be to a single God - why not a billion Gods?

    That would be more logical if anything.

  • Reb

    The Hebrew OT started with a complete pantheon of gods. Elohim is plural, thus all the "let us go downs". The Most High God divided the peoples among his sons and that is where all the various gods in the OT derived from. How anyone can read that book and fail to see that is beyond me. Yahweh even mentions them by name over and over. The OT still gives proof of a pantheon and levels of gods by the use of GOD, Lord, LORD GOD and God. Go into the OT and see how capitalization makes a difference.

    Whatever the creator is, a human mind could never conceive nor understand it. I don't think we need to know and we don't need books and clergy to tell us how to live. Evil people will be the same no matter what and those who choose to live like decent humans will always do so. Whoever or whatever created this universe would not be some petty out of control tribal god demanding his own creation to grovel at his feet. Only maniacs and tyrants would do such a degrading thing.

    It was centuries before any of those nations settled on one god and only one. Moses was the high priest of Ahkenaten, the nut job Pharoah who first instituted monotheism in Egypt. Moses and his followers were kicked out after the death of Ahkenaten and Egypt returned to the worship of Amun Ra. The prayers of the Egyptians began with Amum,Amen or Aman and ended the same. The christians end their prayers in the name of an Egyptian god and don't even know it! The so-called Hebrews were actually a vicious group who overtook upper Egypt for a few generations until lower Egypt finally kicked the whole nasty bunch out. Look up Hebrews and Hyksos. The name Moses is not a proper name as moses is a suffix of Egyptian royalty, ie: Ahmoses and Tuthmoses. He was a master sorcerer and magician. This was well known and written about even in the 1700s. Get a clue.

  • Al

    Yavanna if there is a billion (GOD) then what made them? Hence its logical deduction that it’s a single (GOD)

  • Achems Razor

    Okay, Science prevails.

    The universe is a mind construct.

    Everything is balanced and static, and by being balanced, there is nothing, by breaking that balance it becomes un-static, then the universe comes into effect.

    Everything already happened. an analogy. like a DVD. the whole movie is there all at once, means it is balanced, to watch segments of the movie we can break it up and watch this and that, means it is unbalanced, then time will flow as a series of moments. But I must add
    we still have a choice of actions, it is called probabilities.

    The big question is what is that balance? It is the quantum field,
    our universe came about by a quantum leap. Why you ask? Consciousness, that's why.

    Now before everybody calls me some kind of a looney-toon

    Everything I have entered here is right from Quantum Physics, science,
    from science websites. It is put in the simplest terms possible.
    Anybody that so desires, can look this up for themselves.

  • Faith

    For all of you who don't know what sin is,Sin is lawlessnes which means against the law,so when you do something bad that is not in the law then you may say that i didn't sin? now for you christians who think that the bible is the word of god and in it there are commandments or laws that you need to keep,what about"child molestation"?how come you don't see it in any so-called spiritual books?you need to re-write the bible and put it in.

  • Faith

    Check this out, God told Adam and Eve that,the day that they will eat the fruit of the tree, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they will surely die; But the serpent told Eve, that you will not surely die, for God knows that in the day you eat this that your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Look what happen afterwards, their eyes were open just like the serpent said, and they knew that they were naked(ability to see and observe deeply), and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons(this is knowledge and creativity);
    Afterwards Adam said” i hid myself because i was naked (this like conscience here): just like kid, they don’t feel ashamed of being naked even in public until they get that knowledge from someone or may be when they grow up their consciences make them feel ashame of being naked, and then they start to cover their nakedness because they can now observe since they know the difference; But what happen Neither Adam nor Eve died after eating it (we all know that if you eat or drink something that will kill you, don’t you supposed to die in the next moment), but what happen is that they didn’t die right away, just God cursed them 3, and after, look what the Lord God said in Genesis 3:22? Behold,THE MAN IS BECOME AS ONE OF US, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever”;
    Now you the judge, first, man were created like THEM but he didn’t know because the truth was conceal from him, but after eating it he realize that in what state he was and acquired knowledge, so he didn’t die but everything happen the way the serpent told Eve( So who’s telling lies and who’s telling the truth(YOU BE THE JUDGE).
    My point here is that who is the one that the bible represent as Serpent? propably they should not use the name”serpent” but “an eye opener”; If really the serpent wanted Adam and Eve to die, they would die right after they ate the fruit but didn’t, instead they acquire knowledge, so God cursed them for receiving knowledge or for transgressing? We all know that even in our society that one can become a victim or be in danger for receiving a concealed truth or knowledge kept from him or other, and he is called “betrayer” any one that betrays a person, a group or organization whether good or evil, would you curse someone for revealing lies or truth? I think for revealing the truth, since the secret is known to WHOEVER WASN’T SUPPOSED TO KNOW, we see this in real life in our society and sometimes in movies too. WE NEED SOME EXPLANATION HERE???

  • Reb

    Faith, if you research the ancient creation epic of Sumer and the creator gods Enki and Enlil, you will have the source of the OT version. The so-called five books of Moses (first 5 in the OT)have been proven not to have been written until around 500 BCE by Ezra and Nehemiah. That explains why cities and kings are mentioned that were not even born in the era Moses was said to have lived.

    The stories they used for the creation tales were stolen by them while in exile in Babylon and later reworked to create a cosmology for them. Many of the other tall tales in the OT were borrowed from other tribes and told to make the Hebrews the victors and followers of the only true god.

    BTW, you are very correct that Adam and Eve did not die but both lived to ripe old ages. Adam is said to have lived over 900 years!

  • dbjohn

    As a card carrying atheist I enjoyed this discussion. The saddest part about Atheism is that you have dozens of loved ones who are in fact wasting their lives in so many different ways. Wasted time, money and hope is all I see in the future of believers.

  • Hardy

    @Al: Your argument is faulty.

    "The universe must have been created, so there must be a creator."
    "Well, there was a creator, so who created a creator?"
    "Well he was always there!"

    Just as much as you can say "there was always a creator who then created the universe", I can say one of these two things:

    1. "There was always a universe, there was nothing before it."

    or

    2. "There was a creator of this universe, but because nothing can be created out of nothingness, this creator has infinite superior creators, who all created each other."

    Either way, your argument doesn't fit. It isnt a logical deduction, but an assumption twisted to fit a purpose.

  • Yavanna

    Thank you Hardy - you beat me to it but I would have been much less kind.

    Al if anything what you call logic I would call anti-logic. You again make that leap of faith bound to the minds of "believers" that "God did it."

    To suppose that a billion Gods must have had a God that created them; whilst supposing that that single "God" remains outside of the equation of first cause is a misnomer. Fact is if there was a God that "did it all" it could equally said that a multitude of Gods "did it". And you for one don't know. No one does. The best answers come from science not the belief in superstition regardless.

    Intelligent Design - Two naked teenagers in a garden with fermenting fruit.... Even I could have planned it better!

  • sue

    Yavanna,
    I went to youtube, to "god doesn't exist - prove it" that you talked about on 1-26 and I thought it was fun going through some of the posts, like "what if god diappeared?" and another one from a woman taking the "prove it" challenge and referencing Carl Sagan's book "The Demon Haunted World", chapter 10 in regards to "The Dragon In My Garage" and that reminded me of when on 1-25-10 "Ockham told Mariam, what if he had a fire breathing giant green lizard behind his back?" I wonder if he was referencing Carl Sagan's book? Did you read any of the written comments or view any of the video posts? Also, I noticed on 1-29 that you took "christ" out of "christianity", like x-mas and called if "xianity", I hadn't heard that one before and I hope it catches on.

    Achems Razor,
    I went to the website you referenced on 1-26 "Problems With The Bible" and went through "Derrick's Atheism Page" and found that he has a big problem with noah ark too, but even better I found a whole collection of books-- 2 in particular, "The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy" and "101 Myths of the Bible". If you click on these (from the home page go to misc., from there is the literature section) an Amazon website comes up and you can view the first few pages of the books. Loved it, thanks for the tip!

    Reb,
    Wow, you left Mariam speechless, bravo!

    Ddub,
    What is the Venus project you referenced on 1-26-10? Does anyone else know what this is? He said there won't be poor if the Venus project has it's way - great doc. Can it be found here on this website and if not, where can it be found?

    Thanks for all the great info. guys and don't stop passing along the useful/insightful info.!

  • Yavanna

    Sue

    Haha - glad you liked the video. Ed Current if you didn't guess is a famous youtube satirist but he plays it so well he is often believed by creationists to be the real deal. As is another favourite of mine "Jesusophile."

    The thing is both get 5 stars or 1 stars from atheists and creationists alike, because either they totally get their satire or believe they are real creationists. Because they play it so straight there is little difference.

    Sometimes as you say the comments on those videos are just as funny. Check out "Mr Deity" if you want more Godless humour - enjoy. If you want funny angry rants check out Pat Condel.

    (Xianity is used on the Richard Dawkins [dot net] forums - another place worth visiting)

  • Yavanna

    PS google "venus project" It's a utopian rule set for how we could make civilisation work. It's all there on the website and also featured in a doc called zeitgeist on TDF

  • Achems Razor

    @ sue:

    Your welcome, also you may go to to Derrick's Atheism Page and click the "off site links" a person could spend a whole week there.

  • mnganga wa kiyenyeji

    I will deal with the term God not of any particular religion.Many cultures around the world have a belief in the this term,there beliefs seems to be different in appearance but in essence the message is similar.Am a freethinker who believe in the concept of God or Godliness or the ability to act responsibly but not in fear of abeing called God.
    For those who think[i can not apply the term believe-coz believe is to know,believers dont know, all theyve done is taking someone else ideas and claim they are facts!!]that there is abeing called God per-se and those who claim there is no God,in my opinion both think of the same thing but they represent it differently.
    Think on a very serious note if there was a God,why did He not stop the earthquake in Haiti.If i knew or any other human being Knew that the Quake was to take place am sure I could have informed the Haitians about it.Can you call a person a friend of Haitians if that person knew before hand that this disaster would occur and willingly refused to inform them about the impending danger a friend?On a personal level if your mate refused to chose conciously not to inform you about a danger on the path you are moving on and when this danger when it occurs claims the life of your loved one,will you continue claiming your mate is friend?People who believe in God perse have never really questioned their so called believe with an intention to understand,fear has clogged their minds and they cannnot be able to think as it is.
    Think about this quote:IF A MAN,HOLDING A BELIEF WHIH HE WAS TAUGHT IN HIS CHILDHOOD OR LEARNED AFTERWARDS,KEEPS DOWN OR PUSHES AWAY ANY DOUBTS WHIH ARISE IN HIS MIND PURPOSELY AVOIDS READING BOOKS AND COMPANY OF PEOPLE THAT CALL IN QUESTION OR DISCUSS IT...THE LIFE OF THAT PERSON IS ONE LONG SIN AGAINST HUMAN BEINGS.

  • Yavanna

    ugh?

  • mnganga wa kiyenyeji

    To believe in God or not to is the same.Is like languages english,swahili,chinese,aztec all their words sound different,but they make the same impression in the minds of their speakers when they mention e.g cow,fear,laughter etc.No one should go out their to convert the other,everyone should look at his believes and ask himself how he/she how they can make life better for fellow earthling

  • Yavanna

    Yes I agree. If only that was reality. In that case religions wouldn't matter. Pardon me asking but unless you rolled your face on the keyboard; your name - is that African? Welcome to the discussion please tell us about you.

  • T-2012

    Trust your own values. Excellent Video!!

  • mnganga wa kiyenyeji

    Yavanna hi,yes i am an African from East africa.In Africa people were converted into two foreign religions namely Islam and christianity.I do question the validity of people converting from one religion to another in whatever part of the world they come from.All religions of the world just like languages are the same,and they serve the same purpose.One unique character with all human beings is they can separate themselves from their programes and modify or do away with it if it doesnt seem compatible to their aspirations.All religion preach about Love[healthy self esteem],to attain that love one must be realistic[God].The bible says in the 1st commandement,You should not have any other God b4 mi,which is-You can not escape from reality,so the second commandement is an explanation of the consequences of escaping from reality.
    My point is the bible,koran,vedas,the stories which were passed from generation to generations where people had not discovered writtings etc if you read them you yourself[dont allow anyone in the name priest to pretend to you that he has gone thru special school or he has the power from Gods spirit{by the way holy spirit is Reasonning,of which we cant do without}You will be suprised i give you the chance to find the truth for yourself.
    Lastly i liked the comments of One Faith written on january 30th,Looking forward to hear more from you

  • Yavanna

    Mnganga

    Nice to have a different perspective, thanks. You make a lot of sense. In particular with regards to corrupt priesthoods, the glaring similarities between the holy books and the hypocrisies of switching religions.

  • mnganga wa kiyenyeji

    Faith i will add on what you said in regard to the so called ''the fall or Man" it should be understood as the rise of Man.What the bible ment by death is;As you said eating the fruit refered to "becoming aware of themselves and their environment"and death was leaving that life of animal where the main tool of survival was instincts.Why humanity has excelled is because of this so called sin.God and reality are one and the same.
    I believe any person who has gone thru relligious school for trainning to become a priest knows this kind of understanding but the reason why they do not teach the truth is because relligion in a money robbing institution,they literally sell nothing to their followers,am not trying to imply that there are no genuine priests of whatever relligion but majority,the top leadership of this relligions know they deliberately misinterpret the so called holy lit for their own interests.THINK churches are very large buildings,they are used only once a week yet there are some people who spend the nights out on the cold and this buildings of God lie empty!!!!!.
    Relligion is anti enlightement,infact relligion is the anti christ,but all is not lost mankind will conqere this kind of retrogressive thinking,the number who question the validity of this institution is growing all over the world and the relligious is shrinking.Have a Realistic day all of you

  • joey

    Throughout time there have been multiple gods and stories that preceded them in order to create a desired effect. The notion, and need, of a being that can create a sense of comfort for the unknown is something that humankind wants. However, science is the process(es) of proving theories wrong in slow, but effective way of seeking answers to who and what we, as humans, may in fact be. No one wants to die unloved, unfullfilled, without purpose or even live in a state of flux for that matter. Religion acts as a temporary and easy answer for the unknown. In my case, I don't believe in scripture that contradicts itself; was written by multiple authors; written 200 years after Jesus had lived and relied on a counsel/church to include the Book of Revelation. It's institutionalized belief and one that is not independent, nor is it objective. I believe that We don't need a God, or Gods, to tell us not to kill, betray...mankind evolves through processes not through praying to a being that has continued to watch over the strife in this world. If religion gives you hope and solace in your life that should never be denied. For me, I have inner peace regardless of scripture...maybe I'm just more eveolved.

  • Joe_nyc

    Here is a funny thought.

    Quantum theory states that the particles only come into existence through observation.

    Perhaps gods are physically real because we sought answers?

  • Maurice Nicoll

    With the possible exception of Hitchens ( who embraces the militarism, feeds the polemic, which thusly cultivates more radical Islamists ) these are among the sanest human beings on the planet. Well worth the two hours of your life that this education can bring. A fine documentary.

  • Nobodies Right

    I consider myself a theist because I believe that when you nail down the entirety of reality into a singular existence, you should probably show that entity some respect, and God seems like a good start.

    Anyways chaos theory, quantum physics, evolution and many such other discoveries do make a strong argument for the lack of need for a God to create this universe, but I have never had a good argument put forth that proves why He would not exist (don't mind the gender thing I'm sure It doesnt have one). If I make a pattern in the sand and it appears to be something that the wind could have made, where do we go from there? Must we always rely on Occam's Razor? Possibly Achem would like to answer that one

    Lastly I feel that when we get into the prospect of the prima materia, that any answer to how energy/matter came to be is just as pointless and valid as another.

    Cheers

  • charlesovery

    Well Nobody is Right,

    You obviously have not questioned the beliefs of anyone who states that faith is what it is about. Nor about the beliefs of common religion that creates faaith at all...your arguement is void untill you do so!

  • mnganga wa kiyenyeji

    to the christians born agains and devotees:-what would have happened if peter one of jesus desciples did not deny jesus after he was informed about it in relation to cock crowing three times?Did this guy peter deny his master out of free will?If he had not deny jesus,then would jesus prediction been a lie?
    Let us reason,since god knows everything before it takes place,how do then claim we have a choice?Can i chose an action that is different from what god knows?"God" knew millions eons ago before i anything was created that today i would be writting this,how then can one say this are my thoughts?
    In order for humanbeings to be free,to be mature they must do away with God,they must deeply question the validity of this belief and especially the discription of God,Man can never truly be in control of his destination as long as he believes in this kind of God.When people pray ,if they'd reason they would understand they are putting their God in an impossible situation since they are asking him to change what He[how do we call it he yet its neither sex!!]already know.God started as a concept as time went by a group of lazy lot namely the priests changed it to being and since their students believe reasonning is immoral,they have empowered this priests to ruin their lives.The students of this priests are dependent on the very priest to free them from self imposed mental fog.OOh what a waste!!!!!

  • mnganga wa kiyenyeji

    when Jesus was arrested by the Romans it is said one of his desciple named peter with drew his sword and chopped of a Roman soldier ear,didn't jesus know before hand that peter was going to use this weapon,one does not need to see the future if a person move with a weapon in his hand its obvious there are circumstances he/she can use it.I think true story of jesus was he was a kind of rebel leader who was challenging Roman occupation and Peter was one of his bodyguards and that explains why he was always armed with a sword the AK 47 of ancient israel.

  • Michael

    This is nothing but grumpy old men talking badly of those not present.
    Bad faith and so many strawmen it's a fire hazard.
    Would have preffered a conversation, not a rant.

  • egorygray

    hello!Love this site Vlatko.But really,all you smelly ,stinky atheists,and logic users are sooooo frustrating.I so wish we could go back about 500 years and we "gods people"instead of debating you ,could just burn you at the stake for your silly logical views.Those were the days.Reb,Achems,Yavanna
    I always enjoy reading any thread with you guys in it!Intelligence is very refreshing.

  • Achems Razor

    @ egorygray:

    What? you want to bring back the inquisition??

    Just try it!! We got your number! Small mind!!

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    Thanks @egorygray. I also enjoy reading Reb, Achems, Yavanna...

  • Yavanna

    @ egorygray:

    Thanks! I`ve been a bit disheartened lately; people calling me stupid uneducated & childish. I try to inject some sense of humour into most posts but sometimes go too far when I`ve had a beer or six....

    Glad you've put me amongst such company as Reb & Razor but be careful for what you wish for because us three are planning a new inquisition and this time we'll be in charge!

  • sunny1

    According to Monty Python: "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

  • mnganga

    GOD is Good,positive,Love related deeds or deeds with similar effects/outcome.When Sir Jesus said Love thy neighbour as you love yourself he was talking about self esteem,which is universal to every human being,thats why am against moving from one religion to another.Self Esteem can only be developed from within and not from without.The Holy[whats is the meaning of holy?]books,or self help books can only guide to tap what is within.
    The second part of GOD is Nature,am not very sure if we can have the full knowledge of Nature,anybody who claims there is a source of knowing what is in nature in its fullness is a LAIR.

  • njtaaa

    @Shugga

    "We can explain practically EVERY natural/chemical/physical/psychological event on the planet, and are beginning to understand more and more about the universe around us..."

    Where did the first atom come from?

  • lol@comments

    @njtaaa
    "Where did the first atom come from?"
    if your implying that it must have been created by something, you must also be asking the question who made the creator. thats how reductio ad absurdum is supposed to work.
    and by the way, in shugga's post, he says "practically". he does not claim to know every tiny detail. he also says we "are beginning to understand more and more about the universe around us".
    i imagine you asked a question that nobody can answer, because if no man can answer it, in your mind the solution is god. in other words, you decided on your solution and then posed a question so great that your illogical nonsense would seem like a fit.

    @mnganga
    "anybody who claims there is a source of knowing what is in nature in its fullness is a LAIR"
    metaphysical mumbo jumbo wrapped in a convoluted attempt at flowery word play.
    save it for the congregation.

  • njtaaa

    @lol
    Judging from his comments, Shugga is a scientist.
    If science has an answer I want to hear it.
    Who said anything about God?

  • Achems Razor

    Well, people, since @ Nobodies Right: wanted me to say a few words, I will.

    We, none of us ,the whole human race is just not advanced enough to formulate any meaning-full paradigms for the theory of everything. YET!

    No doubt when that happens it will be a simple solution, scientists will say, why didn't I think of that, (occam's razor)

    The human race needs much more time, we just came swinging down from the tree's not that long ago.
    In Universe time we have been here like a neutrino colliding with an hydrogen atom, just a flicker.

    We are still classed as a class "0" civilization,
    When we stop killing each other, re: wars etc:
    Than we might progress to a class "1" civilization, and onward to class "2". at class "3" we will be shooting to the stars.

    But as Feynman said, we have a major problem. Our Earth is not in proportion to the Universe, and us humans are definitely not in proportion to the rest of the Universe, we are way, way, way, to small.

    I have no answers, nor does anybody! again I will say, YET!

  • allan

    @Achemz Razor

    I don't have much to add other than I agree with your statement and actully use this agruement as well. Just because we do not have the answer doesn't mean their is no answer, we just don't have the answer yet. We must continue to strive for progression for our great race.

  • lol@comments

    @njtaaa
    science obviously doesnt have an answer to that question yet otherwise it would be in newspapers, scientific journals, on the internet... so why ask such a silly question in such an overly simplified fashion?
    sorry but your comment reeks of faith to me.

  • lol@comments

    and who said anything about god???
    heres one of your posts from the doc "who wrote the bible"

    "It has been reported that God said:

    “I was a hidden treasure and desired to be known, so I created Creation so that I may know myself.”"

    you post comments defending religion all over this site, primarily because you claim it is a way to improve yourself.
    i would say there is no self improvement a religious person can perform that a non religious person cannot, so your point is moot.

    like i said, the reek of faith permeates every word you type, and your not fooling anyone.

  • njtaaa

    @achems razor & @allan
    Thanks for the excellent answers to the atom question, they 'reek' of civility and wisdom.

    "the theory of everything", haven't heard that one before. Good one.

    The theory of everything, excluding the theory that God exists and the theory that God doesn't exist. That, we'll have to leave alone as a question of faith.

  • charlesovery

    Njtaaa,

    Sounds to me like you are asking a question that makes you believe that god created us. Well what about the very first atom and cell for that matter? Where is the proof that god created it? And if he did who created the cells to create that god who created the cells and atoms that officially created us? Faith doesn't prove anything. Razor does have a point in what he stated.

  • David.

    What a bunch of loonies! They don't even have a horse.

  • Yavanna

    lol @ David :)

  • njtaaa

    I'm sorry, I didn't realize your question was directed to myself.

    Energy created and released by the big bang is where the first atoms came from. If you have an interest in the subject then I recommend researching what the worlds top scientific minds have to say about it, I could go on but it would take much too long.

    I suspect you would then ask me to tell you "how" this process works. I don't know but the basic theories and research I find to be very stimulating and exciting.

    If you have an answer to that question please inform me. If you were explain to me that this is the work of a supreme being I would be more than willing to accept it as truth. First you must explain to me, not just tell me. Even the slightest shred of evidence will be enough to make me accept Christ.

  • allan

    Sorry, the abose comment was posted by me; "allan" and directed to "njtaaa"

  • njtaaa

    @alan
    "I recommend researching what the worlds top scientific minds have to say about it..."
    Can you direct me to a website?

  • Nobodies Right

    Well to those who do not have the absurd claim of complete knowledge or understanding, just live with the fact that both views of reality are just as valid.

    and @charlesovery, as a product of the above statement, this very well means you rely on faith for your system to eventually disprove God. Until that time buddy we are in the same boat, hence BELIEF system.

  • Yavanna

    Erm no, only religions claim to have complete knowledge and understanding and all those "boats" have gaping holes and are sinking.

    "both views of reality are just as valid"

    Not when one view is utterly ridiculous. Saying something is valid over and over is not evidence of it's veracity.

  • mnganga

    When islam started,it was written that every muslim man/woman its a MUST should visit mecca atleast once in his/her life time.After islam spread to areas far from mecca,that GOD'S LAW was changed,a group of men realized it was nolonger applicable.In christianity the sabbath the day of rest and worship was on saturday,a group of men too decided to change it to sunday.In catholic church for many years hundreds people believed that when a child die before he/she is baptised they will end in a place called purgatory,between heaven and hell then there after after spending anumber of days will then be taken to heaven.Protestant churches had too to change some of GOD'S LAWS in order to ordain Women.All religions keep on changing and bringing in new laws,If they were Laws from this BEING how come it did not foresaw that those Laws may not be applicable at future dates?
    In religions like hinduism the priesthood have come up with a very absurd explanation why people are born with deformities,they claim its God punishing them for the evils they committed in their former lifes.Can there be justice in punishing a grownup for wrongs which he did when he was a child and worst is he cant remember them?Even if there might be another life, what would be the purpose of that "punishment and what lessons can we learn"?
    I think if really God per se existed It could have reaveled its self to the people because those who claim to speak on its behalf are busy potraying it in bad light ang no sensible person would believe them,including God itself.
    If that is the case,why then do majority of people believe?FEAR,Fear is a powerful master,it stops people from thinking,reasoning,believing in themselves,it burnishes doubts,it makes one value the opinion of others not their own.
    Religion was created as a respone to material and emotional suffering,to find consolation and relief.It is the sigh of oppressed creature,heart of the heartless world and soul of soulless conditions.It is the opium of the masses.We must change our economic,social and political structures and liberate people enchained by them.Religion provides an illusionary happiness for the people who require illusions because reality is too painful to face,We must not merely abolish religion but abolish the very onditions that require its consolations.What we require is a REVOLUTION

  • Beth

    I think my favorite response to the statement "prove that God exists" was "prove that you love your ..." or

    What is the difference between saying God Bless or Good Luck! There's no way to prove or disprove God or Luck

    Granted if you use luck in the sense of the probability of the outcome most wanted happening, it makes sense, but I suppose that's that same meaning with God Bless...just don't assume God always refers to the magic being in the sky.

    @mnganga I agree that a Revolution is needed, however, it would be slow in coming, and possibly not at all. There are going to be those who experience "miracles," and will credit their personal god, whichever one they choose, I suppose. Also, tradition has deep roots, and since science can't definitively answer certain questions one might have, philosophy or religion fill the viod and give people something to lean on.

  • mashariki

    @Beth its true it will take time for the this revolution to happen but it has already started many of us grew in religions i was once a born again christian but i entertained doubt which i was made to think is evil and eventually i ended up an atheist,More and more people are leaving religions.Religiuos leaders are losing on intergrity.
    Take for example the peodeofile priests in the "church of christ the roman catholic" there is a possibility though remote pope can be arrested and charged,maybe in future lets say 200 years or less from now religions will be excitinct,they will change into something less reliant on external deities on there way to excinction.
    when mans will love without expectation of devine rewards or deterent,this will be a revolution,man will be higher than this current level.Its the journey into symboli eating from the tree of life in the bible.
    This is my imagination striving to live in harmony with everyone without selfishness,being selfless,no nation will be fighting any other nation,millions will be spent not on war machinary but on fighting hunger both material and emotional,a life with no priests and bankrupt politician.
    You can walk into anyones house if you are stranded in any part of the world what you tell them about yourself they will not doubt and you will not lie,and they will provide you with shelter ,food etc selflessly.
    This means even the way we speak words related to nagativity eg murder,greed,stealing will be faced out of future selfless human beings and so are many other things that we assume are part of human nature.Unfotunately i will not be around to witness this great period of utopia

  • kian

    I live my life like this. We are in heaven or something equivalent. Look around. From edge of universe to edge of universe we are the only one in this life. Even if there is another dimension, it is said that it would be of a different reality so we are still the only 'one'.

    Being given this life through evolution is a beautiful thing. I cant believe people are ashamed of being evolved from apes. Apes are a beautiful thing and hit the same life lottery as us. To assume atheist have no purpose and meaning in life really offends me. My purpose is to live the life given to me. My meaning is to enjoy it as much as possible. I never needed God to give my life meaning.

    I'm not as informed as many of you to debate theist so I'm offering something for those of you who dont believe in god and struggle to find purpose in your life. You are special because you are here. It sounds so simply it could even be considered stupid. And when love ones pass, I will always appreciate the love that we have shared and have comfort that they got to experience the gift of life. I was also blessed with a nephew this past holiday and every time I look at him, I feel so happy for him that he was the sperm that made it to the egg first and now gets to experience this gift. Probably sounds so elementary to you all but it makes me happy. I've never needed god to make me feel happy or special! I dont care to go to heaven because I'm already in it! (metaphorically speaking).

    To those who believe in God. Please understand that you dont need God to be happy or have meaning. Take a real look at the science. Not for evidence of anything but just to discover life in general. Dont let your faith in God turn you away from science. Does science have all the answers? No..but use science as a tool to explore life. Instead of going to church, spend that time looking at the sky through a telescope. Its a beautiful thing.

    Didnt mean to derail but the back and forth bickering is very depressing. Very smart people on here. This is all I have.

  • kian

    when i said "given to me," I meant given to me through the probabilities and evolution. Please dont respond with,' God gave you life." Lol.

  • reprovo

    If someone tried to see a strand of dna with the naked eye and didn't see It, does that mean It does not exist.What these people are doing is far worse than that and they actually think they've proved something.
    There Is a god , and those who actually seek Him , find Him and the proof Is far greater than the physical senses.It is the saddest existence to beleive that only dirt and decay exists because you always look down, you never dare to look up and see the sky and the beauty of the heavens.Foolish
    If you ever seeked the truth and not the gratification of your ego , you'd be filled with the spirit of God, and then you'd see how utterly ridiculous your claims are that God does not exist.

  • monitor

    SUE,you forget to mention the genocide against SERBS,croatians killed over 500 000 Serbs in WW2!

  • Nada

    It's not often you can be watching something and scream "Exactly!" 100+ times at your tv/pc. This was one such documentary for me.

    I love Richard Dawkins. If I were to meet him I would probably hyperventilate like a school girl meeting Justin Bieber. He's my hero.

    Vlatko - You're my hero too. Thank you for this awesome site!

  • Achems Razor

    Hi, Nada.

    If you like Richard Dawkins, I recommend watch "Richard Dawkins, The blind watchmaker " here on TDF.

  • Nada

    @Achems - I've watched it. I actually searched "Dawkins" on this site and have watched every doc he's been in. :) I also search the net to find any of his lectures...

  • Achems Razor

    @ Nada:

    Okay, thanks for letting me know. :D

  • eireannach666

    @reprovo If someone tried to see a strand of dna with the naked eye and didn’t see It, does that mean It does not exist."

    Well no but we knew alot about biology before we discovered dna. It was only natural that we found it.

    Also
    "There Is a god , and those who actually seek Him , find Him and the proof Is far greater than the physical senses."
    Everything we discover just leads us further away from a god. There is no evidence to back up your god. Zilch , zero, absolutely none...sorry to break it to you.. Your faith in god is nothing more then typical religious brainwashing and your need for comfort that there is a heaven and that there is some divine plan. Can you not find purpose , comfort , or meaning without god. I think you can. Is it really that bad to realize that you control your actions and being moral is just good practice and not just a rule you have to follow?Would you be less moral or more evil without religion? I wouldnt think so. So why do it?
    Just asking.

  • soldierofchrist

    to all the atheists watch the true face of Jesus it might shut yous up for a bit also just a couple of things firstly science gives us the big bang theory which coincides with the bible secondly how can there not be a "god" or supreme being then whats before the big bang and before that and i can keep going there has to a superhuman force amongst as we will never ever be able to answer these questions with science

  • Nada

    @Achems - Thank you! For pointing to that doc. I just watched it again (blush).

    @eireannach666 - well said!

  • Nada

    @soldier - Perhaps a bit of punctuation would help make your totally confusing post slightly less confusing...

  • reprovo

    Fortunately there Is a god and no , I'm not brainwashed In the slightest and the gifts of the spirit are Immense , beyond quantifying and not some fake comfort I assure you.
    I know there Is a god and I live In His grace and If you all wish to bury that fact with all this nonsense then go ahead.You'll be creating "Proof" upon "Proof" your whole lives just to keep a shred of sanity.That's your right to do so but don't tell me I'm brainwashed when you haven't got a clue what you're talking about , you persist to look down at the dirt just to disprove the existence of the sky.Good luck with that lunacy.

  • Achems Razor

    @ reprovo:

    You are brainwashed!!

    Another little tantrum going on is there?? So funny!

  • reprovo

    rofl ,I'm scratching the walls , tearing up scientific journals as we speak.

  • Jack Green

    Show me a god and I'll show you a sucker.

  • reprovo

    I don't know what to say , the only experience the western world really has of Christianity is howdilydoodilism in the most part.When faced with millions of Ned Flanders I would probably be repulsed by It.
    That's not where the marrow lies but that's what Is portrayed to the public.The catholic priest pedophiles , the in your face "believe or burn in hell" evangelicals.The superficial belief in God just to feel more superior to others.
    I never searched for God or for anything else with the intent of blind obedience.All I ever wanted was not to be a slave of the physical , to be free in the mind.Never to cling to an idea constantly even when you start to see the holes it's riddled with.Truth In It's perfection , In It's total freedom ,inevitably leads to Christ no matter how politically incorrect that sounds to the scientist.

  • JKJ

    @reprovo

    Why not to Buddha?

  • reprovo

    @JKJ If i try to follow Buddha I would have to create some theories as a support structure and try to keep them standing because my conscience objects ,Buddhism doesn't stand on anything solid. Christ however can be followed in freedom and perfection.Buddha was just a man holding onto something that had some good points but mostly false nonetheless.Christ Is God ,so there Is no comparison.

  • Sisko

    I love these guys, they are awesome!!! Great philosophers, and great thinkers. And of course, awe to Mr. Dawkins for his great scientific approach on case against god in his book "The GOD Delusion"

  • kask

    This is essentially a group of atheists explaining their views. They discuss science and express their belief of how it is happening without cause. However, one could easily agree with the same science but accept that it occurs with cause.

    I agree with them that everyone should examine the statement that "We could be wrong," but not just the religious.

    Peace.

  • satir

    I dont think any one would seriously argue whether there "is" or "isn't" a god. that would be as irrational an excercise as trying to explain to Mr. Smith in ward room 110 that he isn't actualy Napoleon Bonaparte. He is convinced; as surely as any one who has decided there is a god is; that his reality is THE reality. and in some ways he is right... the human brain obviously creates its own reality to an extent. a greater issue is whether we as modern humans still need that mental and psychological crutch... will we socialy disintegrate? will we suddenly become lawless, drug addicted degenerates? I think we can categoricaly say that no, we wont and in fact tolerant democratic society is supplanting the religious theo-centric or religio-centric social orders that were our recent ancestors norms as an obviously better choice in government. we are past that need both sociologicaly and phycologicaly and therefore god is as dated a concept as Homer describing Helios chariot as drawn by solar steeds, the spontaneus generation of maggots, blood letting as a cure for ailments, or an earth-centric cosmos view as dogma... God isn't dead, he was simply never alive to begin with, and arguing over a piece of allegory is just as usefull as if you'd find yourself as in a Michael Chrichton novel suddenly thrust into Roman times and tried to argue that there wasn't a chariot pulling the sun accros the sky. can you prove that there are no horses up there? without modern optics or sensors no. would you be wrong no, could you prove it? also no. would it matter to the world of its day? probaly not... would we be even more "advanced" today if we had figured these things out and accepted them more quickly? most likely...

  • Kask

    I am sure outdated information is one of the many factors that have kept mankind from making faster advancements; which is why I really like this website.

    @satir - you said:
    "will we socialy disintegrate? will we suddenly become lawless, drug addicted degenerates? I think we can categoricaly say that no, we wont and in fact tolerant democratic society is supplanting the religious theo-centric or religio-centric social orders"

    One would need to provide some research as to how society is responsible for "replacing" the "moral code" of the religious order.

    Couldn't what you suggest or observe about society replacing religious order, be a result of the fact that more than half of the world believes in a personal god which calls them to some life of moral conduct?

    This seems more likely to me, but I'm open for information that would suggest otherwise.

    Peace.

  • reprovo

    God says seek Him by loving your fellow man as yourself.Let's just take this one command.If you tried to follow this In all honesty (you would have to want to In the first place)then that would lead you to the Lord because He Is the essence of love.His Grace Is that which fulfills man and makes Him in His likeness.
    The truth of the matter Is you don't seek God as you should but rather create all these silly theories and equations and you find someone who believes to be foolish because He can't see God with His eyes or touch Him etc.You're all so way off the mark because you want to be way off the mark.

  • Baumer

    Travis Lloyd01/24/2010 at 09:01
    "I won’t even go farther than this; Richard Dawkins have you ever considered that you have wasted your entire life??? To you four horsemen I do not hate you or even dislike you but maybe somehow you will get this message. If you have the proof Allah, God, or a Supreme Creator does not exist then draw me a picture because I can’t understand being a physics major and a successfully intelligent one at that…I’m here respond and I will see. Thank you have a great day."

    do you have proof there is? i think if there was a god, how could you even question it then? wouldn't you just know or something, not be told/taught. no, get by on "faith", i guess 1 of the religions are right? god:"oh just fight it out for a couple thousand years & kill each other, i'll be back to rescue those who deserve it.

    where are the answers to our problems? this god leaves a book?...life's pretty complicated.
    how about an update of what we should truly do to get along, have enough food, etc. i don't know for sure but i doubt it's build more buildings & worship.

    why live 80 yrs then go to a "heaven" for eternity. that timescale is pretty skewed. does god say hmm, give this guy diabetes, this girl herpes, this or that. how about hey don't dump your nuclear waste in the water(that 1's obvious but i hope you catch what i'm saying), it may contaminate food & kill off...if everyone's wondering isn't it time for an update

    if i convert to some religion is that going to grow food, clean water, or whatever you want to apply there?
    i understand why people could but i don't know why they do. if you didn't get religion pushed on you as a kid, would 1 just recognize it someday after being educated about REAL life for 18 or so years. by real i mean experiences & education

  • Rachel Kirwan

    Ok I first of all want to pat myself on the back for reading this novel worth of commentary. Bravo me. Next I too echo the surprise at people who have watched the program pointing out that not all the comprehensive arguments are made, its mroe like watching a beautifully evolving conversation over drinks.

    One observation I will also make is that many times thiests and rationalists accuse the other side of 'not having read the bible,' or not having read 'my bible.' First one should have suffered through these books (Quaran and Eastern traditions also they are quite interesting), before one can accuse a person of faith of having not read the book. This being said, there are different versions, with significant alterations. My personal favorite is the words "to know" which can be of course in the literal sense such as "I knew that Miriam (from above) lacks basic spelling skills." But can also be used in the sexual sence as in "Alot of you guys really knew her arguments." So there are discrepencies (and boring sections you have to skip, like Numbers, seriously).

    But to return to my main point, it is undeniable that all these books condone and describe horrible things, any thiest who says otherwise is clearly only picking up the rose tinted version at thier place or worship. But the biggest concern in my opinion is not that horrible stuff happens in the bible, or that it treats women horribly and any woman who believes in her own subjugation has been brainwashed or worse, or that of different translations, interpretations, or literalists.

    I take a different objection and that is that it employs circular logic. Many of you above argue that its illogical to believe in god, or challenge believers to use logic or science, but present rather weak arguments yourselves (picking on both sides here). Using a book which claims to be devinely sources, to prove that is it devinely sources is circular.

    This is the head-against-the-wall banging moment in this argument. One side believes based on faith, and because the book says so. I call on another source to confirm the books divinity. And because I forsee Some christians presenting alternative Gospils which were left out etc. It should be a source not tied to the original, not dependent upon it.
    But then one hits the next piece of circular reasoning, namely that of faith, one needs faith to believe it and this is the external source. Well I havn't met Faith but I'm sure she is terribly boring and not to mention dangerous.

    I want to add a final comment relatign directly to the Doc. that is when one of them says thatthey would rather the argument were not settled and the argument is worth it, in and of itself. I think this is dangerously wrong for a very precise reason. That of the dangers of engaging in this type of intellectual masturbaton while other, more ressing issues are at hand. Who cares about a diety, I'm more worried about the survival of my biome.

  • James

    What Jesus preached and the miracles he is said to have performed isn't necessarily true. After all, he may have been a radical priest who was then spoken about and then as his legend grew, the stories grew. Much like King Arthur and Round Table. Do we *really* believe the books written hundreds of years after his time that he had a *real* magic sword? Come on, he may have existed, and had a nice sword, probably made of a stronger material than the common swords of the day, but not magical. It's a nice story that got embellished. And we write books about it, hundreds of years later. Maybe in a few hundred years, people will worship King Arthur, and his Knights will be his angels, and Merlin will be his 2nd in command, and Mordred can be Satan.

    But oh wait, I'm sorry, if Arthur actually *does* magically return from Avalon (heaven) to restore Camelot, and bring peace and prosperity to the earth, the Christians will make him out to be the anti-christ... Lol

    But oh! Wait! Arthur wasn't the only one who was said to return! Maybe Quetzalcoatl, or some other "heathen" god... Here's the real question, if some false god *does* show up one day, how would we tell the difference? For all we know, Satan's greatest trick wasn't making people believe he didn't exist, maybe it could be having you believe that he's god, and causing you to fear questioning his religion to the point where you will follow him even if your mythical god showed up right in front of you.

    There's just too many possibilities to count. God may exist, he may not, he might exist but not be who you think he is... It's all a bunch of nonsense. In just one post I showed several different beliefs. None of them mine but the funny part is, they all have the same amount of "proof" to back them up. Zero. All you can do is live your life as best as you can, and hope for the best. After all, even your bible says two things that show that it can't be proven to anyone.

    1) NOBODY will come to believe in god and the church unless god calls them. So arguing will never save anyone's soul. If you convert someone by arguing a point, you have just proven that you are in the wrong version of Christianity by your own bible. Because it says: "How can he hear except by a preacher, and how can he preach except he be sent?" So only a priest can have a hope of converting ANYONE! You cannot save anyone, not even your own child, unless you simply introduce them to a priest who can persuade them.

    2) The bible and god are matters of FAITH! This is the most important part, if the bible itself (and therefore god him/her/itself) says that it's all about faith, then by *definition* it CAN NOT be proven! The bible itself states that faith is the belief in things UNSEEN! Therefore the bible SAYS that it can't be proven. STOP TRYING!!!

  • Mano

    Christopher Hitchens is definitely the odd one out in this group. Three highly lucid, rational, humble and self-critical men sitting around a table with a belligerent provocateur.

  • lions

    to shugga give me your brain in a silver platter and I'll believe you have a brain

  • lions

    to all atheist draw me a picture of the air and the wind so that we can believe that this does exist

  • Angelito

    @lions, there's nothing left to say but, don't be a romantic fool.

    And bout this documentary, and dont get me wrong i admire these men, but they didnt have to make a documentary like this. this is total masturbation LOL. i get it, its a intellectual chat between people that KNOW how to reason but come on.
    fact of the matter is that religious top representatives dont give philosophers or thinkers the opportunity to ask questions directly to them and have an articulate debate. ITS A SHAME A TRUE SHAME TO HUMAN SPECIES.

  • Julia

    There are a lot of people, including myself, who are inspired and even look up to some of these men. It is also hard for some people to lose their faith and to have intelligent people talk about their views sometimes makes others not feel alone in the process. I found that everything is even more beautiful in this world knowing there isn't some hypocritical god controlling everything.

  • H

    They say religious people dont ask themselves where they are wrong or not. But they claim they do.
    ...and still they believe life started from something whatever during a long time.
    Why don't they try and see if a cell is created out of nothing living if you just leave it and wait a long time.
    if it doesn't happen can it be that something created it? and if so what created that?

    The bible doesn't nor does scientist tell how to create life.

    I think these people are just like any other religions people when it comes to the origin of life.

    But instead of listening to somebody who they are sent from God who tells them what to believe they come up with their own ideas.

    I think these theories people made up and religion is just as unlikely.

  • HH

    A scientist believe what he can measure.

    These guys say believe an old theory by darwin that they made their own little spin-offs to.
    They made this to complete darwins theory cause the theory didnt explain everything.

    What's scientific about this?
    What makes them more scientific than religios people...

    religions could be theorys, maybe. Everybody KNOWS darwins theory is just a theory.

  • Albert Couillard

    Wow, rational minds don't take offense to have their idea's challenged. There are NO arrogant scientists or doctor’s. Really? AIDS research was slowed down by years because the two head researchers were rivals and would not work together. Corporations sue people that criticize their products. For the sake of argument though, let’s say, science should be the ultimate tool used to measure the value of anything. Science, and many atheists suggest that belief in God is simply the firing of certain neurons in the brain. I imagine the same can be said of love, hate, loyalty, dedication, trust, pride and any other emotion or feelings humans may display. So if the entire human experience is nothing more than chemcial and electrical processes in the brain. They are then akin to flicking a light switch or the binary code of a computer. Then any sense of value we place on those feelings and emotions is arbitrary and meaningless. So, all emotion should be banned because they have no scientifically measureable value to the planet. In fact the “emotion” of love has led to hate and murder just as religion has. Clearly emotions are dangerous and thereofore every scientific method should be used to eliminate them.

  • DD

    great job guys. i find it amazing how you can sit four people each a mind of their own and yet agree almost at every level. yet if u sat a spokesman from each religion this wouldn't be worth watching.

  • Reprovo

    Searching In all the wrong places for something you will never grasp since the only real purpose here Is to dispell the existence of God and not to seek Him.
    God however created all the things you try to refute Him with and though science Is a gift , you choose to abuse that gift and give It powers It will never have.

  • Pakistani

    God is God bcz he KILLS , and creates , if someone is really upset as "Achems Razor" by Haiti earthquake casualties
    then this is the first sign of Greed for this imperfect world.
    Then I will ask "Achems Razor" the opposite ,should we not belived in God bcz he created devil , Bush ,America ;) and Usama, Taliban ,Saudi Arab etc . No not at all ,these all cards are part of the play and ultimately there is win for religious person. As Muslim I believe, as Allah says in Quran "Those who believed in one God and feared him and did good deads, they will receive forgiveness from Allah" , not matter from what religion they are.
    Allah says in another verse in Quran: "Creation is God's
    Family" and this is big message , whoever cares/supports for his family will eventually be blessed. I believed in God's mercy greater than his curse. God bless all human and show us true light ,as we are all from one Man and Woman.

  • Sean

    Yavanna I love they way you think.

  • Graham

    I was going to post a deep and insightful comment about the whole God debate....

    Then I thought sod it, they're all nutters anyway believing a fairy story from the past.

  • Dekay

    @ Travis Lloyd

    After reading your comment claiming to be a "physics major and a successfully intelligent one" , I was a bit perplexed. I was wondering which Wal Mart store you studied at? I want to be sure not to get my degree from there. You requested that Mr. Dawkins draw you a picture proving that Allah,God,or a Supreme Creator does not exist. First of all, pick ONE. Richard doesn't have all day you know. Second of all I strongly recommend that you demand a refund from the aforementioned Wal mart. I was shocked that during the course of your studies your instructor did not inform you that it was not possible to prove a negative. They usually teach that right after cashier training. I think it has something to do with items that are not PHYSICally there. If there is no money in the register, you can't make change. Pretty complicated stuff huh? I was going to save Mr. Dawkins some time and draw you a picture myself, but i couldn't locate my pen with the invisible ink. Will your next course of studies include logic and reasoning? You may also want to brush up on your proofreading before posting, it makes the foot fit in the mouth so much easier. Have a nice day.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Heather-Lynch/1020619242 Heather Lynch

    terrible.... sorry i really gave it a chance but 4 rich white men sitting there and pretentiously talk "s***" about something they obviously don't understand....really? just because you don't understand it doesnt make it wrong.*maybe the fundamentals of christianty is false but the archetypes and the myths came from some deep part of the human psyche. and these symbols are here for us to explore. lets not kill the souls of man because you dont agree w main stream religions history dude and btw Dawkin the virgin mary isnt part of the holy trinity father son and holy ghost, put that in your pipe and smoke it

  • diedeutsche

    First of all, I enjoyed the film. Second – before someone criticises me for my poor spelling – I am German and make errors. Ok, back to the topic: I did not really understand how big this religion versus atheism issue was in the US, until I met an American (who is now my husband). I grew up in Germany and religion never played a big role in my life. Even though my grandmother (catholic) always told me about the greatness of god, and my mother never really disputed what I was told, I never was truly impressed by the whole idea of afterlife, Jesus, God etc. In Germany we even had religion as a subject in school but it somehow always was clear that we did not have to take the bible literally. It actually never occurred to me that these stories were more for some people than – well – just stories.
    I am not a physicist, or a chemist – I am a psychology major. However, I always was interested in science and tried to understand what we know about this world so far. Everything points to the conclusion that there is no God, Allah, and whatever out there (and that actually comforts me because the God described in the bible is a real sadistic fellow). I am truly shocked when I read sentences like “we all know that evolutionary theory is JUST a theory.” Don’t people learn in school what a theory actually is? I think that education actually leads to a more anti- religious view. I am not saying that there are no educated religious people out there – however – I think that most scientists do not believe that the bible is a factual document.
    I am also puzzled by individuals, who just cannot let themselves embrace the possibility that they might be wrong. It is true what is said in the documentary: scientist often question their own findings. Yet, religious people seem prone to ignore all evidence that might change their mindset if they truly looked at it. This movie will not change the worldview of a religious person (I can see that) and it shouldn’t! Being impressed by what “four white rich man” (I saw someone write that here) say should not lead to changing one’s idea of the world. However, people should occupy themselves with scientific findings and truly question what they were told by other rich white man. I am sometimes flabbergasted by the fact that a country like the USA still has so many people, who truly believe in a supernatural power. In Germany I could go into a church and yell “I am an atheist” and nobody would really care.

  • Jordan_Hill

    Sorry Heather but you have not proved anything in your rambling here. I'm not sure if your problem lies with these men being rich, being white or both, however, and though I don't know much about you, I am assuming that you would have no problem listening to rich white men if they were saying what you would like to hear. To assume that these men do not understand what they are talking about suggests that you didn't watch the film or paid no attention to what was going on. Reading and listening to these men outside of this talk will help you to see where you are wrong on this issue. I would then have to push back to you your pretentious argument that "just because you don't understand it doesn't make it wrong". I will agree with you there, because it is the lack of evidence, logic and reason that suggests that religion is wrong. Pick one of these men and read one of there books. They are able to present the arguments against god in a much more beautiful way than I can imagine so I dare not try. From your picture you look as if your a young person, as am I. Just a little over 22, and to suggest that I can comprehend this vast universe or it's origins let alone the origins of man and life on our earth would be a bold face lie, however, by opening my mind and learning about the universe and how everything works so well without putting god in the picture, has certainly made life better and more beautiful. Christopher had a great quote from Einstein, "The most miraculous thing about are universe is that there are no miracles".

  • David

    Bible is the same as Mein Kumpf - - - a political testament, intended to put "fear of god" in to men, and bend them in to submission, religion is the poison of the soul, and tragedy of humanity.
    People that deep down know that they are wrong, always fear of being challenged, as they know deep down, that they are living a lie by believing in the "holy books" and the "word of god" - - - - That's why when they are challenged they act out in a violent immature childish way - - - - I often was told by religious people that they don't like to discuss religion, nor they like to be challenged . . . so I always asked - - - "What are you afraid of?" - - - The answer was "I don't want to loose my religion" - - - they always say "RELIGION" not faith - - - so my answer is "Then your religion is not so strung, and true if you are afraid of that, and you really don't believe in what it teaches" - - -that ended the conversation as those people either got agitated by me or avoided me and left with some stupid excuse . . . . Religion is a scam, and faith is a matter of spirituality . . . .

  • David

    Souls of men are being killed by religion, it is a poison that brought us to where we are today . . . Religion being as a motivator for people to kill each other, as in the background the strings are pulled by Corporations who just wanna earn money from war, and war is business AMERICAN business . . . . That has NOTHING to do with democracy - - - - nor good intentions . . . . Religion is a tool as any other, and Christianity - - - -as the talk is about that here - - - is a CULT of death and Terror, nothing else - - - it is to be despised, it is to be eradicated, and it is to be condemned for it's actions through out history as it uses the "holy book" as it's tool to intimidate people, it condones slavery, murder, genocide . . . . It has nothing to do with 10 commandments, it contradicts it self in every second word . . . . Common sense tells us that GOD does not exists, and the one decapitated in the bible is a sadistic, hypocritical being that does not deserve anything but utter contempt . . . . In Ancient times there weren't so much killing, they didn't give a crap what who believed, as long as they payed taxes and obeyed the laws, after the land was pacified. BUT as since Roman Catholic Church started with Fashionable, killing of other Religious people, and of course, the trend continued, they started, and it spread around the world, and this crap is still going on and we are in 21st century.

    We've been to the moon, sent probes to Mars and advancement in science is remarkable, and we even didn't scratch the surface, and what are those idiot's doing, killing each other for "god", if I'd be god, and saw what people are doing in my name I'd be pissed as hell, and smitten all of them down with lightnings up their asses.

    There's the proof, that god does not exist. The funny thing is, how people are STUPID, and BRAIN WASHED, and when you give them ARGUMENTS, I love their answers ( God Works in Mysterious ways, or GOD gave us free will ) - - So once I argumented this statement, I ended up by accident in some closed group of religious fanatics.

    There was a guy that was Yapping about the god, trying to be all charismatic, alas he didn't act so well. SO he told: you are suppose to love God and he is our father and all that crap, and when we need him, he will come and help us, so Imagine that, if you please:

    „A man, decides to go to the park, to find a woman, beat her, rape her and kill her – his free will - - - - A woman decides to go from work to her home, through the park, cos she wants to get home quick, she is tiered, and wants a nice bath, she believes in God, and has faith - - - her free will : : : : : : SO, He ambushes her, does what he wanted to do, my reasoning, her free will ceased to be, the moment he attacked her and done what HE decided.

    . . .Where was her „father“, where was her GOD, if he sees, and knows everything, I don't want a father, that will leave me hanging, when I'll need him, screw him, I rather be an orphan“

    So the guy told me, that then the god decided to call her to him, that's why he let her die, so she was her daughter and he called her to him, through rape beating and murder, again, a father that loves his children, does not let his children to suffer, and then reasoning, she had to have been sinned, so she had to pay for it.

    Well didn't Jesus die on the cross for our sins, ergo, so even if she sinned, Jesus already payed for HER sins. . . Just a bit of logic, and there you have it, GOD is an Ass hole if he exists, and I really couldn't care less of him, any GOD, Christian, Muslim or any other, it's all the same, The difference is in dictionary . . .

    As far as bible goes, religious people say, it is a word of god. HOW THE HELL can it be the word of god, if HE did not write it, and the one that is used today, was written in 367 A.D. And they chucked everything out, that made Jesus „human“, to make a martyr out of him, it condones Slavery, stoning, selling of your children to slavery.

    I could go on and on here. It is a book to scare people, that if they do not DO as Church DEMANDS, then they will suffer, a typical scare tactics, for me it is the book that equals Hitlers „Mein Kupmf“,

    It is a scam, a good scam, to get people under control, and it fought knowledge, it fought, the right for the people to be able to read the bible for them selves, it was interred by the priests, cos they new, when people would start to think, and understand things, then they would figure out, that what they were told, and what is written, are two different things.

    Control over life and death is the most powerful „drug“, and people having it, don't like letting it go, and Roman Catholic Church as an institution and all it's mechanisms, to control the world and people, for me they are the oldest, crime organization, that ever existed, and should be treated as such . . .

  • David

    Isn't god about love - - - so why should we be afraid of him?

  • David

    Prove it. . . . how did he do that - - - - the world is not just 8000 to 10000 years old as bible states - - - - So explain to me Dinosaurs . . .

  • 2kurukshetra

    I think a distinction between buddhism and christianity/(islam) should be acknowledged. Modern psychotherapy increasingly draws upon the thought tools provided by eastern 'religion' as a means of personal developement divorced from politics and modern academia. Try 'thoughts without a thinker' by mark epstein. It too is fairly academic but perhaps more accesible for a westerner suffering from the effects of generations of relative ignorance and misplaced religious authority.

  • pulunco

    Your god is a lot like air, hot air being blown up people's A$$es.

  • rickyfresh

    Are you trying to be funny,. i can feel wind and air as it moves past my face. You dont have to draw it to prove it exists, i presume your having a laugh and i fell for it.

  • colombian09

    are you kidding me?....this is the most stupid comment in this website, congrats! you earned it!

  • http://www.facebook.com/chittem David Chittem

    This is what it is and no more 4 guys sat down having a chat and trying to understand the world we live in .Something we have all done one time or another its just maybe these guys use science and common sense.!!
    I do not know if there is a god nor do i care .
    There is something called choice and free will .
    The more we talk the better we all are

  • https://twitter.com/#!/AUWR AUWR

    In the history of mankind, Religion has been the main cause of violence, wars and human sufferings. It has been and always will be a tool to divide and control. Period.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_WLBNEV2QH2R5SWTEELOXOJQPEM N B

    Maybe they could do something like this again and leave Christopher Hitchens out. I like Hitchens well enough, but he doesn't like to share a stage. He is also more interested in debate and conflict than problem solving, which I find frustrating.

  • MohammedSafwan

    WoW....It is more evident than ever where Atheism is heading...
    The Prophets of Atheism are un-sure of what they want & what they would do if there is an Atheist Society or actually if there comes in existence the Zeitgeist World...However this unsure group of Prophets in their own belief of Atheism make the whole discussion funny by going forward and defining how they want the Christians, their favorites - Muslims must behave!!! I think they were Drunk while they spoke all this crap...

    What they really want is a hedonistic society but they wont call it so they call it the Zeitgeist world....A Deception
    These Atheist Prophets will define how the Christians or muslims should be like, ridiculously funny...According to them this is what one can summarize:

    Christians - All your rituals, traditions, customs, architecture everything is beautiful -- but, but the spiritual belief behind this - the emotion that you attach is well...bull___. Remove the spirit do everything else...How dangerous & Hollow are the Prophets of Atheism - Disgusting!!! and they think they are not being totalitarian

    Islam - same fate or probably worse then Christians...ofcourse why not - because Islam shakes the very base of any belief. Islam must be exterminated. But we wont do so, because we are peace loving people we will only spread hatred, discord among people, make the whole world scared about Islam & Muslims(What the media is successfully doing) & simply formulate policies that on any suitable pretext enter muslim houses & destroy them... Venomous Prophets of Atheism.

    Such are the Prophets of Atheism...and indeed their followers are equally worse...

  • Mantid

    All I can say to you ''mohammed'' is f*** you.

  • MohammedSafwan

    It is kind of funny...

    People are such fools that they are not aware how to even abuse in a literate manner!!! Just like their Masters...

    The most funny bit here is, the abuses & abusers are selectively Warned & Censored...Some talks are simply not taken because they do not agree with the privilege few, If these abusers, their supporters & their promoters ever got breast fed by their mothers I hope they will return with sound reasonable arguments instead of shamelessly parading themselves as psychological disturbed bas**rds who had an upbringing in an uncivilized group of criminals or hooligans...

    However Better luck next time...

  • Mantid

    You take this too seriously. :)

  • Mantid

    You have no significance, you are just some guy commenting on a free documentary website.

  • antowalk

    Within 5 minutes of video, you sin.....look at the footage.... It's absolutely impossible, therefore to talk about Yahushua. You have NO defense whatsoever in representing HIM.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    what are you trying to say?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NL67Y7PWTAUVEX7CSLGQIWWPYU Beth

    I enjoyed listening to these gentlemen discuss/debate religion. Sam Harris asked if it was important that he equally criticized all religion or if just addressing the dangerous ones. My answer is this: It is important to address the aspects of religion that cause the most suffering and death.

    It is equally important to realize that seemingly benign religions often inflict suffering on women and children. For example, the teachings of Christianity and Islam that direct women to submit to their husbands as the church submits to god has all sorts of negative and harmful effects on women in their local communities. Another example is the common religious practice of corporal punishment. Extreme corporal punishment practices are often found in fundamentalist group. However, corporal punishment, even used infrequently, causes unnecessary suffering for children.

    I realize the two examples I offer are highly controversial with each side claiming to know the truth. My point is that both examples inflict shaming and intrusions on people who often are unable to protect themselves. I'm not trying to prove anything here. Rather to say we should not ignore aspects of religion because it appears to be benign from the outside. We need to openly discuss the harmful effects of all religions.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000939008873 Hassan Al Badri

    I can feel and sense your anger,but, may i ask you something and i rest my case,did the Quran ever mentioned the dinosaurs or ever mentioned the evolution which is not a theory now but a fact, did the Quran mentioned the equality between men and women? i can answer already for you, big astoundingly no,there is nothing in the Quran that proves god existence, and any miracle ever mentioned in the Quran i can debunk it right away for you and with ease, the first two points i mentioned i can already answer it for you that the Quran didnt mention it, and about the third (equality) well if there is a religion that puts a woman down,well,unfortunately for you,that would be Islam and no other, first the boy has twice the share of the woman in inheritance, second a man´s testament in witnessing equals two females,third the man is allowed to marry four ladies,and the lady is allowed but to marry to one man at a time,if you say that´s equality then i would not even waste time to talk or discuss with you,about the embryology stat in the woman´s womb that is mentioned in the Quran is also false, cause Aristotle mentioned it to even a more detailed fashion before Islam 1000 years, in the Quran it is mentioned god created the and the moon and the earth, and the scientist recently discovered that we had two moons instead of one (about 70 millions years ago), if the Quran is the word of god couldn't he or she mention that?
    brother i am not trying to put you down nor am trying to disrespect you, all am saying is that religion is something personal just as your sex life is something personal, so keep it to yourself,do not preach it as it is the ultimate word that accepts no explanation and no discussion, cause that will lead to the death of all intelligence.
    may peace will be upon you
    cheers love and respect

  • MohammedSafwan

    Qur'an is not a science journal that you flip through and see if it has to say something about everything in specific terms. If there is no mention of dinosaurs or cockroaches that does not mean they do not exist.

    EQUALITY!

    Please elaborately give your definition of the term - "Equality" ?
    then
    Talk about your understanding of "Equality between Man & Woman" ?
    & then
    Lets talk about what Islam says..Alright?

    EMBRYOLOGY!

    Before talking to general public about your views about embryology and proving what you think is right... please do the following favors to yourself:

    1) Please talk to a doctor about it.
    2) Write and publish a paper on embryology in a publicly recognized Science Journal.
    3) Submit a copy to the Nobel Society in Sweden about your research discovery of Aristotle mentioning about embryology in all the detailed fashion that you think he did
    4) Do Not wait for any Nobel prize or any recognition for I assure you wont receive any.
    5) Based on the documentary evidence of the paper you have submitted to a recognized organization or science Journal, please file a law suit against the person - Dr. Maurice Bucaille who researched and claimed about the Qur'anic reference to the human re-production cycle matching with that of scientific discoveries.

    And finally if you win the law suit, you can surely rub it on the face of Muslims that the Qur'an is false. Until then do not give your personal opinion and go around shouting that what you say is fact!
    And if you think you are incapable of proving your point in the above manner, then shut-up ridiculing others whether they are Christian, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist or whoever!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000939008873 Hassan Al Badri

    Equality is pretty simple in meaning and i do not know why you avoid the question as many Muslims do,ok, let me ask you like this, do you think that the women have equal rights like the man in Islam,like the guy have TWICE the share of the women in INHERITANCE? clear enough,do you think its right for the man to witness on his OWN,and that equal TWO women witnessing on the same case or against each other?do you think its equal in rights as in human rights if you get what i mean,when the man has the RIGHT to marry FOUR ladies at a time,when the woman has the RIGHT to marry ONE man at a time?so in the end my question is this,after all what i have said and wrote which all of it comes straight from the Quran,(DO YOU CALL THIS EQUAL RIGHTS BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN OR NOT)"its pretty simple really you just have to answer that agree with the Quran or not"is it clear or ....?anyway moving on to embryology,
    The entire study of human life as mentioned in the Qur'an is not original at all. While Muslims try to claim that Muhammad made these statements before scientists discovered them, they are wrong. Theories of the formation of a child inside the womb was put forth by Aristotle nearly 1,000 years before the Qur'an was written. In fact Aristotle correctly described the function of the umbilical cord, something not mentioned in the Qur'an, showing that earlier philosophers were aware of such things mentioned by Muhammad and more. Every mention of human development in the Qur'an is similar to Roman and Greek theories. Consider the following verse referring to sperm:
    He is created from a drop (of sperm) emitted-- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs. (Qur'an 86:6-7)
    Clearly this verse is incorrect, and clearly it has origins in earlier theories. First of all, for sperm to originate between the back and the ribs would mean that it comes from the kidneys! We now know that semen is produced in the testicles, but people in Muhammad's time did not know this. Eleven centuries before Muhammad, the Greek physician Hippocrates theorized that sperm passed through the kidneys into the penis. For centuries this was an accepted (and incorrect) belief of the origins of sperm.
    There are those who claim Muhammad had no contact with Greeks or Romans. Pre-Islamic Arabia definitely had contact with Byzantium, Syria, Egypt, Persia, and Babylon. There were many Jews and Christians living in the area, and they were familiar with Greek or Roman philosophy. The Christians were connected to Rome. The Jews were connected to Babylon and Persia. It is easy to see how such theories regarding embryonic development may have reached Muhammad.
    Finally, to touch back on the verses that spoke of the development of an unborn child, I will say they too are incorrect. The Quran stated that the blood clot was turned to bone and then God "clothed the bones with flesh" (Quran 23:13-14). It is scientific fact that living tissue forms first, and then bones grow at a later time, and continue to gain strength (by building calcium) for many years after birth. Therefore, this is one of many scientific inaccuracies in the Quran.
    plus not to forget to add Galen 150 ad with his 4 stages and see yourself the resemblance ;
    But let us take the account back again to the first conformation of the animal, and in order to make our account orderly and clear, let us divide the creation of the foetus overall into four periods of time. The first is that in which. as is seen both in abortions and in dissection, the form of the semen prevails (Arabic nutfah). At this time, Hippocrates too, the all-marvelous, does not yet call the conformation of the animal a foetus; as we heard just now in the case of semen voided in the sixth day, he still calls it semen. But when it has been filled with blood (Arabic alaqa), and heart, brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped yet have by now a certain solidarity and considerable size, this is the second period; the substance of the foetus has the form of flesh and no longer the form of semen. Accordingly you would find that Hippocrates too no longer calls such a form semen but, as was said, foetus. The third period follows on this, when, as was said, it is possible to see the three ruling parts clearly and a kind of outline, a silhouette, as it were, of all the other parts (Arabic mudghah). You will see the conformation of the three ruling parts more clearly, that of the parts of the stomach more dimly, and much more still, that of the limbs. Later on they form "twigs", as Hippocrates expressed it, indicating by the term their similarity to branches. The fourth and final period is at the stage when all the parts in the limbs have been differentiated; and at this part Hippocrates the marvelous no longer calls the foetus an embryo only, but already a child, too when he says that it jerks and moves as an animal now fully formed (Arabic ‘a new creation’) ...

    ... The time has come for nature to articulate the organs precisely and to bring all the parts to completion. Thus it caused flesh to grow on and around all the bones, and at the same time ... it made at the ends of the bones ligaments that bind them to each other, and along their entire length it placed around them on all sides thin membranes, called periosteal, on which it caused flesh to grow.

    Last and not least I mentioned the dinosaurs for one reason only,it is mentioned in the Quran and i can bring the ayah if you want in Arabic,that the earth was empty and Adam was the first to set foot on it with Eve,well couldn't Allah mention that before them there were dinosaurs? i mean isn't it something that you shouldn't leave out, and what i noticed mostly with religious people,that you always avoid the answer of evolution,is it on purpose or Allah is telling you not to answer?
    And again i sense your anger,you do not need to be angry IF YOU KNOW YOU ARE RIGHT!!! ;-)
    may peace be upon you
    cheers love and respect

  • MohammedSafwan

    Dude,

    Right now You do not worry about the Qur'anic verses,
    just explain to me

    what is the Definition of Equality according to YOU or the SOCIETY YOU LIVE IN....?

    What according to you are the equal rights of women?

    About the verse of Qur'an you quoted, the actual meaning what we muslims have understood is this:

    Chapter 86, Verse 5 to 7:

    LET MAN, then, observe out of what he has been created: (6) he has been created out of a seminal fluid (7) issuing from between the loins [of man] and the pelvic arch [of woman].

    The plural noun tara'ib, rendered by me as "pelvic arch", has also the meaning of "ribs" or "arch of bones"; according to most of the authorities who have specialized in the etymology of rare Quranic
    expressions this term relates specifically to female anatomy (Taj al-'Arus).

    About Embryology please follow what I said you in my previous post: "do your research, publish it in a science journal, challenging the Qur'anic verse and Dr.Maurice Bucaille " and then we can talk about it. Else the topic is closed from my side. It is waste of time.

    Prophet Muhammad & Plagiarism:

    Lets HYPOTHETICALLY consider that Prophet Muhammad had at his disposal all the knowledge of the ancients(whether greeks, romans, persians, egyptians, hindus and chinese etc). But still the accusation of plagiarism against prophet Muhammad will still make no sense. The reasons are:-

    1. Is it possible for a person to gain all the knowledge of his time?

    2. Is it possible to gain any such knowledge when there was no such idea of formal schooling or a set mechanism of knowledge transfer from one person to another and one place to another?

    3. Is it possible for a person to understand so many different languages of his time to such an extend that he can take up the work of combining & compiling all together in one single language?

    4. Is it possible for a person to carry on & accomplish a literary work that is considered as a Master Piece while living in a least resource based environment of a desert?

    5. Is it possible for a person to carry on and accomplish to write a book like Qur'an in today's age of Internet, where there is abundant availability of information, resources & time for even average Joe like you & me?

    6. Is it possible for a person to dedicate time to some literary work when he is surrounded by numerous foes & hypocrites that are in constant bloody pursuit of him?

    7. Is it possible for a person to scrabble through volumes of knowledge from different civilizations(Greeks, Persians, Romans, Hindus, Chinese etc...) to compile them into a book, while he was busy uplifting a region out of social & economic dis-order?

    8. Is it possible for a person to write a book by copying several different books and hand in hand continue to make unique changes to his work so that it is discovered to be a Master Piece in its own right and a thing of marvel continuously since 1500 years?

    9. Is it possible for a person or a nation as a whole to produce one single book, while those people were not by any standard people of great knowledge and were in constant dispute with each other for every trivial matter?

    10. Is it possible for a person or a nation to produce a single book (by copying) that touches on every major aspect of human life and how to deal with them, without any time inheriting the flaws of other books?

    11. Is it possible for a person to produce one single book(by copying!) that acts like an encyclopedia about many knowledgeable things right from humans, animals, planets, suns, stars, days, nights, clouds, rain, history, legislation, etiquette, economics, money, policies, constitutions, conducts of war, treatment of prisoners of war, personal laws like law of inheritance(the subject you dispute here about), spirituality, behavioral science etc?

    12. Is it possible for a person to carry such mammoth literary task by maintaining one particular style of writing for a span of 23 years? especially when he is copying?

    13. Is it possible for a person to write a book that appeal even to a common man by its simplicity and also a scientist, lawyer, economist, philosopher, historian, orator, poet etc?

    14. Is it possible for a person to write a book 1500 years ago and yet maintain a Universal Appeal?

    If your answer is "No" to all the above questions, then we must acknowledge the fact what Muhammad says: There is no god, but God and Muhammad is the Messenger of God.

    If your answer is "Yes" to all the above questions, then we must answer:

    Why did Muhammad not claim the authorship?
    Why did not Muhammad claim greatness of his genius?
    What was the objective or motive behind such a work, when he made no financial or social gains?
    Why did not he himself claim Divinity ?or become a God head ? or at least accept the generous offer of Kingship? that was being offered if he renounce The Message(Qur'an) that simply asked the people to:
    Believe in God,
    Believe in the Day of Judgement,
    Believe in life after death,
    Believe in Revelations
    Give Charity,
    Take care of Orphans,
    Give equal status to Woman,
    Slaves are equal to their Masters,
    Do not take usury,
    Do not dispute for each and every trivial matter,
    etc...
    Why The Message(Qur'an) he brought spread so rapidly, even while he & his followers face many odds?
    Why is The Message(Qur'an) still spreading so rapidly and appealing all nations and people from all walks of life? especially when any person who believes in his Message is branded as brain washed, fundamentalist, radical, barbarous, potential danger(please see Stephen Dawkins giving such branding in one of the HardTalk talk show he attended speaking about the book God Delusion)?
    Why ? Why? Why?

    You can spend your life(just like many do & did) rebuking all the "why" by inventing answers in your brain to please yourself & misguiding others, but the facts remains: Their is One God & Muhammad is Prophet of God just like any other prophets before him (Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joseph, Jesus etc) and all these & other prophets (there were 1,24,000 prophets approximately) came to their people across the world with one single Message - There is One God & reminded Man of his duty towards God & his fellow beings(humans,animals etc included)

    Get out of the Delusion that all those prophets and The Message were some sort of legends & folklore that just were passed down by our previous civilization who were not mature enough to understand their world and all the enlightenment just reached you when you turned on the computer & internet.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000939008873 Hassan Al Badri

    Still did not answer the question of the evolution nor the dinosaurs one,and through all your points is it possible,he did and that and this, well yes it is possible,and by the way do not ignore please the army movements you did guys in the centuries after mohammed´s death which you call it al fateh battles which you spread the islam by sword just as the crusaders did,ok ,and with all Due respect,are you playing dumb or you just have that tendency as all the religious zealots have by ignoring questions,i mean a 6 years old would understand that question in any context possible,

    DO WOMEN IN ISLAM HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS WITH MEN?

    what is so hard of that or what is the thing that you do not understand,and i told you as in HUMAN RIGHTS,ok get it, in this context ok ,HUMAN RIGHTS, now you are going back to me and ask again according to which society, brother am asking you as in the GLOBAL HUMAN RIGHTS,that most of the countries in the whole world agree upon,even in united nations. so please do not play that kind of ignorant games, am sure you are above that.

    DO YOU CALL IT EQUAL RIGHT WHEN THE WOMEN HAS HALF THE SHARE OF THE MAN IN INHERITANCE?

    EXAMPLE,2 sisters and one brother,normally in EQUAL rights countries they divide the inheritance into three one thirds of the whole inheritance, but NO, in islam the the boy will get THE HALF OF EVERYTHING and his sisters will get QUARTER EACH, CLEAR ENOUGH!!!? do you call this equality ?????

    DO YOU CALL IT EQUALITY WHEN (("ONE")) TESTIMONY FROM A MAN EQUALS ((" TWO ")) TESTIMONIES OF ((( TWO ))) FEMALES?

    CLEAR ENOUGH OR YOU STILL GOING TO PLAY STUPID GAMES AND GOING AGAIN ACCORDING TO WHOM AND WHERE,

    Still you did not answer the EVOLUTION question, which will DIRECTLY go against all creation religions INCLUDING YOURS,NEED SOME DIVINE HELP OR ...........?

    I tell you what, since the arise of the evolution theory, no one could ever disprove it, GET IT, NO ONE SCIENTIST WHETHER THEY WERE BELIEVERS ON NOT, NONE , PERIOD,

    Disprove it and YOU MIGHT GET THE NOBLE ONE DAY,but be quick cause the evidence is ever piling up against you,

    And embryology hmm,i wonder why you avoided GALEN,hmmm,i really wonder why.

    DINOSAURS,BAAAHHH who needs them right?, still didn´t answer that question too???? i wonder why AGAIN.

    Here is my advice to you,read some of the Sumerian history which dates at least 6000 bc,and see the resemblance in the creation myth, read MORE about the evolution and see for yourself with your logical mind how we came to be,it is lots more fascinating than the quran or any holy book,

    PLEASE I URGE YOU TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS,

    cheers love and respect

  • MohammedSafwan

    @Badri,

    May be I am a little dumb, so could you be so nice & understandable person "you are" and try to be specific to me about what "Human Rights" you are talking about.
    When you say "GLOBAL HUMAN RIGHTS", PLEASE CONFIRM if you are referring to the 30 Articles of "United Nation(UN) - THE UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS"; so that we can actually have some common denominator between you and me while talking about EQUALITY & RIGHTS!
    Please do not bring your own 6 year old mentality to discuss complicated topics like "Human Rights". Such simplistic approach is uncalled, unacceptable & immature in any times & climes! :-D

    If you want to discuss Human Rights, Evolution and many other topics, I am game for it...But One at a time baby one at a time...

    When I asked:

    "What is the possibility of a person or a group of people compiling a book amidst all such odds"

    Badri (you) replied:

    "he did and that and this, WELL YES it is possible,and by the way do not ignore please the army movements you did guys in the centuries after mohammed´s death which you call it al fateh battles which you spread the islam by sword just as the crusaders did"
    If your further accusation of "Yes" it is possible is to be explored, please answer the "Whys" as well. I hope you have acquired some technique of "root cause analysis" & "root gain analysis"

    Why did Muhammad or the people not claim the authorship?

    Why did not Muhammad or the people claim greatness of his/their genius?

    What was the objective or motive behind such a work, when he/they made no financial or social gains?

    Why did not he himself claim Divinity ?or become a God head ? or at least accept the generous offer of Kingship? that was being offered if he renounce The Message(Qur'an) that simply asked the people to:
    Believe in God,
    Believe in the Day of Judgement,
    Believe in life after death,
    Believe in Revelations
    Give Charity,
    Take care of Orphans,
    Give equal status to Woman,
    Slaves are equal to their Masters,
    Do not take usury,
    Do not dispute for each and every trivial matter,
    etc...

    Why The Message(Qur'an) he brought spread so rapidly, even while he & his followers face many odds?

    Why is The Message(Qur'an) still spreading so rapidly and appealing all nations and people from all walks of life? especially when any person who believes in his Message is branded as brain washed, fundamentalist, radical, barbarous, potential danger(please see Stephen Dawkins giving such branding in one of the HardTalk talk show he attended speaking about the book God Delusion)?

    Why ? Why? Why?
    ==========================================================

    I don't really blame you or any of your contemporaries when they say: "Islam spread by sword". This sickness resides in your and many other brains because of the continuous "Brain washing" works done by the christian missionaries & their political allies to justify the crusades & convince the innocent people that they were actually carrying a war or fight against some anti-christ people. These propagation convinced and calm down innocent people of the world of the "guilt of silence" they carried & the support they lend their monarchs to carry such wars & act of tyranny against people whether they were Muslims, Christians or Jews residing in East or West. The equivalent modern day example can be found in the United Allies "War Against Terrorism" & "Search for Weapon of Mass Destruction" throwing to wind all the articles of "Universal Declaration of Human Rights" . With one master stroke of 9/11 they convinced & motivated their own country men to lead a bloody slaughter of hundreds & thousands of innocent people both in homeland like America & United Kingdom & in foreign lands like Afghanistan & Iraq(please see Wikileaks). Meanwhile you can also refer to prior such bloody acts when you see Vietnam.
    But it is utter shame on you that, being a person from such a advance stage of human civilization you miss (may be deliberately miss) to see the actual facts and simply twist things to make some trivial gains like winning arguments or leveling such baseless accusation such as "Islam spread by sword"
    Thank you for giving a window look of what an immature, cheap brain you have!

  • Guest

    Goodbye Mr Hitchens :(

  • Guest

    I knew he was really close. In fact, I "got a bad feeling" two nights ago and googled for news, but didn't see anything. Checking the comments for the first time today, yours was at the very top, and my heart sank...

  • MohammedSafwan

    My condolence to Hitchens family, friends & fellow atheists.

  • MohammedSafwan

    @Badri,

    I read your posts that were removed because they were all in caps. Just saying, so you dont have to repeat yourself.

    It is good to know you are or were a soldier of some army that did what it did in the name of "Freedom & Justice".
    The sense of self-righteousness that you exhibit when you mention you felt no remorse while depositing bullets into people who were "wicked" is a good indicator of the state of mind you are in. I deeply feel you need to calm down take a break from all sort of sensitive talks. I know you want to convey your anger with all those CAPS Character and I am fine by it. But for now take it easy...calm down...you are not in a battle field where you can use your anger in a positive manner and shoot your ideas & points through the other parties brain! Alright! :-)
    Please re-phrase your questions so that I know what information or argument you truly seek...if not I agree with you, you are wasting your time.

    Because you mention about Iraq & Afghanistan and the great "Bravery" & "Heroism" that you have attained over there. Please do a favor to yourself and discover the truth about the origins of the "Great Villains" or "Bad Men" that you killed at those respective places namely Saddam Hussein & his regime AND Osama Bin Laden & his infamous regimes Al-Qeda & Taliban. Will you boy?

    Let me tell you a story:

    Once upon a time, A man hires a whore's service. Enjoys her services, but does not pay her or give any maintenance. The Whore loses her temper & attacks the man. The man was of noble reputation & was clever too, so he does not risk his reputation attacking the whore, instead he hires another whore to do the job for him...

    Points to Ponder:-

    1. Can you figure out who is the Man, 1st whore & 2nd whore?

    2. How this story relates to your life?

    3. What is the moral of the story?

    I am sure, you being a soldier, you would have got it by now...:-)

  • Guest

    Mine too when I heard this morning. People come and go and though its sad its also kind of ok, sometimes though it really is a loss.

  • JustMedd

    Ok,nice words,but tell me,where are the prophets right now? Or God stopped sending is Messengers after the invention of TV,Internet and all Scientific advancements???

    Or,why,because people today are more and more educated saints and Messias disappeared!!!

    Do you really think that if someone like Mohammed appeared today wouldnt he labeled as a complete joke?

    Do you really think that someone appeared today saying he is like Jesus and the son of gond sent to earth to save us from all evil wouldnt he be labeled as a clown???

    Yes,is true,we are more and more educated,and people now are not that easy to be taken on.

    It amazes me how in this century are still people believing in such nonsenses.

  • His Forever

    Me too. I've been searching for news for several days now about Mr. Hitchens. After my classes, I saw the Yahoo article about his death when there were only a few commments, so I bounced over here quickly to see who would be the first to comment about Mr. Hitchens as I was purposely refraining from doing so. It looks like it was fifty4fourty. My sincere condolences to you all.

  • His Forever

    I felt that way when David Wilkerson was killed in a car crash a few months back. I was deeply upset for days. He was nearly irreplacable in importance, but time, and life, go on.

  • MohammedSafwan

    Why few people just cant stop being cocky!! Phew!!!

    You want to talk, discuss, argue, vent your anger out on something...do pick an appropriate timing...and channel it through in a proper manner. Do not act like the filthy cheap politicians who want to compete in measuring their instrument's size all the time...

  • Guest

    True Mr C, chin up then chin up again :)

  • Guest

    For Hitch

    Down in the valley of the shadow of death
    Where the hunters of reason long come
    To slink in the dank, dark leaves
    The shepherds of their own paths
    Pay no heed to madness.

    The whispering, fearful voices,
    Strained with dead credibility,
    Would have their feet falter,
    But they move ahead.

    Up, over the bodies
    Of those whose wit failed,
    Alive now as only dead
    Echoes, fading,
    In the darkness at their feet.

    Onto the shoulders now of giants,
    Our final fathers!
    May we peer over the rim yet,
    Hoisted onto a landscape more full
    And beautiful
    Than any heard tell of, or
    Of any whispered of.

    Thanks, indeed, Mr. Hitchens.

  • Achems_Razor

    RIP, and I always will hold dear a classic quote of his...'If you gave ( enter any religee you want) an enema he/she could be buried in a matchbox."

  • Guest

    Beautiful and fitting. Who wrote it? Reminds me of The Charge of The Light Brigade. Was it you?

  • Guest

    Yeah, it's mine... But it probably wasn't forceful enough in calling attention to the crap we have to put up with.
    As a depressive, I'm simply too optimistic!

  • oddsrhuge

    RIP Christopher. I will miss your insight, even if nobody else will.

  • Guest

    Bugger me, I'm seriously impressed.

  • oddsrhuge

    I don't know about the rest of his post....but Jesus, could, quite easily have been the son of gond...

  • Guest

    Thanks, but trust me, if there's really any merit in it, it was an accident.

  • Guest

    But your a musician and a singer and you do have a quirky way with words, so not a complete accident. Dont be shy, take the compliment Mr Pysmythe :)

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000939008873 Hassan Al Badri

    Ladies and gentlemen,

    I present to you a simple debate between me (regular atheist) and mr Safwan

    look at the past comment and have a laugh and i urge you to look from the beginning,from my first post and his first reply to me and you will see clearly the next,

    No defending argument when it comes to evolution.(proven fact that there is no creation)

    No defending argument when it comes to dinosaurs.(stands clear in the quran adam was the first to set foot on earth,wonder why allah left dinosaurs out the picture and didn´t mention them)

    no defending argument about the status and the equality between man and woman.(woman has half the share of man in inheritance,boy´s testimony equals two females)so called equality.lol ^ : ^

    No defending argument when it comes to astrology.(the sun has an orbit,lol)

    No defending argument when it comes embryology.(mentioned by Galen first at 300 ad)islam 600 ad,so who came first? lol

    I would like to make it known to everybody, i was a muslim until i reached the age of reason,which was unfortunately kind of late in my eyes (17) but at least i am here and i know what is right and what is wrong, all the points mentioned above, i have quranic verses to prove my points,so whether mr Safwan answers directly,or ,any other comment without answering the points above ,will prove my points that you avoid the answer.

    P.S George Carling,Thomas Paine,Charles Darwin,Samuel Clemens,Friedrich Nietzsche,Sigmund Freud,George Bernard Shaw,Voltairine de Cleyre,Marie Curie,Bertrand Russell,Albert Einstein,Sir Alfred Hitchcock,Ernest Hemingway,George Orwell,Gene Kelly,Olof Palme,Carl Sagan,Barry White,Douglas Adams and then to add unfortunately? to this magnificent people ,Christopher Hitchens who all of them effected and influenced me personally in my life and taught me how to reason and to think freely without having the fear of dead dogma´s from the bronze age i would not be the same without you fine people, may i meet you all or not,

    cheers love and respect.

  • MohammedSafwan

    ha ha ha!

  • MohammedSafwan

    @ Badri,

    That is it. The problem is you are a Regular Atheist. And I have no interest in discussing with the regular guy. You see there are lot of regular atheists & regular religious guys around & no body give a damn about them. It is the few exceptional people that the world care about.
    Where are the Exceptional Atheist? Are they all Dead? Or are they still mourning? :-D :-D lol
    Com' on lets dance!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000939008873 Hassan Al Badri

    regular atheist that gave you arguments,made you speechless,with no defense on your side cause you know your place among the defeated religious people, cheers,

    at least i know and any simple minded person,you are defeated,by the way ,thank you for not answering cause you know if you had answered you were going to bury yourself and your religion with it!!!

  • MohammedSafwan

    bury..???
    we will see...at the end of life for sure...guaranteed:)
    Defending is not equal to giving response to barking mad dogs...:)

  • oddsrhuge

    What the hell is a "regular atheist"? One with a job and a car? I can't even begin to address this...but even this "regular" guy is mystified.

  • James Colwell

    A bit repetitive, but nonetheless interesting points of view.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=698111015 Nelson Bennett

    Interestingly, the Four Horsemen are not nearly as scintillating when preaching to the choir (so to speak) than any one of them are when taking apart a religious opponent and demolishing their arguments.I will never tire of watching Hitch destroying his opponents. He was the grand master.

  • Steve B

    Here is my arguement, as a qualified scientist, I've witnessed events, which are miraculous, for which there is no scientific, medical, or even logical explanation, apart from God.... this is not provable, but it is believable... a man with experience is never at the mercy of a man with knowledge....

    this is why we cannot prove our mothers love us or hate us....
    stalin, hitler, mao, pott, atheists, and killed over 100 million people in the 20th century....

    what people might do in the name of religion isnt the same as in the name of God, no matter how much you or they say it is

  • MableSpam

    The problem is less religion than the fundamentalists who use religion as a tool to spread hate and gain power, status and money.

    Chris Hedges owned Hitchens and Harris - on an objective debate scale...they might have won audiences with emotional pandering and strawmen beating. After watching those debates, I would classify Hitchens and Harris as fundamentalist atheists, promoting hate and violence against their fellow humans.

    Sigh.