Guys and Dolls

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Ratings: 6.53/10 from 34 users.

Storyline

The Disclosure ProjectFor some people, finding a partner in life can be difficult. For others, it's almost impossible.

10 years ago, a small factory in California began making an alternative partner. Each is tailored made to suit every taste.

There are now 3,000 real dolls across the world providing some of those with love and compaionship that real women cannot...

Each doll costs around 4,000 pounds. Of those able to afford it, the dolls are worth every penny.

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Comments and User Reviews

  • Der Oberst

    Great documentary!

    5 out of 5 Stars

    Regards,
    Der Oberst

  • http://www.muze226.com Muze226

    Very interesting, a sect of society rarely seen! Thanks!

  • Max

    Hi Vlatko,
    Do you think that a category of 'human sexuality' is possible. Its a huge subject.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    It is possible Max. I should probably add that category. There are enough documentaries on the subject.

  • cali man

    this subject always provides some interesting and surprising reactions from people.this docum.and other articles i've read on this matter have made me more understanding of those whom i ve labeled as weird in the past

  • cali man

    I wonder if using these dolls as part of prisoner rehab would produce positive results as far as behavior modification goes?

  • aj

    this guys are wackos LOL, of course she ended the relationship, these dolls are like addiction, you have to go to rehab afterwords

  • Jenn

    Just when you think you've seen everything. I think my jaw was on the floor from the moment this movie started. I still haven't been able to pick it up.

  • Sarah

    Wow, that was like twilight zone weird. I just felt so sad for the hang glider dude, he's so sweet I don't know why he couldn't find love.

  • Vilya

    Ugg, yes judgmental, but GET A GIRLFRIEND. Getting a doll is like accepting to yourself that you are not good enough for any woman, or the opposite where one thinks that no woman is physically perfect enough for you. As well most of these guys seem too weak to be with a woman, that can oppose them in some way, have their own opinions, and can judge them in some way(as with ANY living person, not just a woman) A good example is the guy who says, "There are many good looking women here, they are all unattainable, as far as I can tell". How does he know that, did he actually TRY to be with the women he thinks are attractive. Just because one rejects you, you cannot give up, EVERY man and woman has been rejected at some point in time, does not mean you have to give up.

    Another poignant point that this brings out, is how today society places physical beauty over intellectual beauty. I would love to do a complete psyc work up on each of these guys but some other time, they all have major confidence issues.

    On a side note .. :) cannot wait till they put robotics in those dolls and can make them "real", lol not that it would help with the attraction but hot robotic chicks, got to be better than square robots.(from a robotics stand point not a sex industry stand point) :)

  • DancingSpiderman

    Well, for myself, I think it's so groovy now, that people are finally getting together.
    I think it's wonderful and how, that people are finally getting together.

    4000 Pounds? I'm gonna need to acquire a second yob, either that, or ask for donations on CraigsList...

  • Sarah

    Vilya... lol, apparently they're getting pretty close to walking real dolls in Japan. They're ridiculously real looking.

    I think it's interesting, when women can't find love they get cats, when men can't find love they get dolls and guns. Lol. I would get a dog, at least a dog can love you back.

  • Beate

    I just want to know what the psychological implications are of owning a doll like this?! These men limit their oppportunities to have a real relationships by carrying on a relationship with a doll. Everything they want in a women is projected onto this doll--there is no receprocity and there never will be! Owning these dolls just reinforces these men's beliefs that they will never have an emotional relationship with a women. Like one of the men said, "It just a higher form of masterbation."
    I understand using a doll like that for sexual gratification BUT when it goes beyond that, to incoporating a doll into many areas of your life---it just becomes an adult game of playing house---permanently.
    I feel for these guys to some extent, BUT they should understand that they are playing a large role in isolating themselves. These dolls simply pull these men into a fantasy world that does not exist--and the longer these men stay in these worlds, the harder it will be for them to a.) meet a woman b.) have any type of emotional connection with anybody that comes into their lives, be it a man or woman!

  • ty

    necrophilia much

  • mazzy

    Anyone who enjoyed this should check out 'Lars and The Real Girl'. Very comical for most women, but very uncomfortable for most men. Make it a date movie. LOL!

  • Girl

    Wow, the repairman's girlfriend is a foul-mouthed pig.

  • Taty

    I cannot believe this. THese people are disgusting

  • Maria

    The documentary has a bitter-sweet feel to it. I think that it's a wonderful thing that they have somebody to love, even if that "somebody" is a "something" instead.

    I'm not sure why so many women have such intense hatred for these dolls, yes they are "too" beautiful and we're afraid that we might not be able to compete with that... but it's not a competition, it's more of a settling for whatever you can get.

    So many individuals have been hurt by the surrounding world too much and being able to trust someone again or hoping to be excepted by that person becomes unbearable. Molding your own reality becomes the only way for some persons and i don't think a have a right to tell them otherwise.

  • budlight

    I feel sorry for those guys and observing from their behavior it really seems like they have psychological disorders. Nothing beats a real woman. I bet if they had a very attractive girlfriend, they would drop those dolls in a heart beat.

  • J

    Having this as a girlfriend is the same as have a rock as pet! ha!

  • Meryl

    Kind of leaves you speechless. Loneliness. So much on the fringe of human existence they've gone completely into their heads. This is a good thing to watch... fight to keep functioning in society, even if you get help along the struggle. These people are beyond depressed= they've thrown it in and are living on the other side

  • Charles B.

    to Meryl: Yeah, I watched this a while ago. I understand the men, however; the loneliness, the dispair, and the need to connect if only with a "doll".

    My wife commented that they should try harder to find "real women" but then I told her that I thought that they wouldn't be happy with real women because, like her, they may not always agree with their husband (me) and that would just shatter their whole world. This way, they have someone that always loves them, always agrees with them, never talks back, is never grumpy, never says no to sex any time and in any way, and never gets gets old (but they do need to be repaired sometimes).

    She actually understood that and agreed with me. I'm not sure what to think of it all, after it's all said and done.

    But there aren't cheap, are they? Wow! What a price tag. And that one guy had like 12 . . . gasp! I was in utter shock of how much money he had to have spent on those dolls.

  • Jam

    Thank you Vlatko

  • mazzy

    After thought: I wonder how things would have turned out for 'The Green River Killer' or Ted Bundy, if only they had a doll...

  • yuk

    Men can be freaks. Notice how no woman has a man version? Men are perverted and these guys are freaks that should be castrated.

  • Monika

    I think the reason you dont see women having "relationships" with Real Dolls is because most women (not all) prefer a more emotional connection and emotional relationship, and not just someone to look at and have sex with. Its probably why you dont see many men walking around with those Fake Babies like in "My Fake Baby". That was probably equally sad to watch.

    A few years ago I went to the Real Doll website after someone was talking about it on a message board and I was just firtly blown away at the price, but then after loing at the photos and sending them to my friend to creep him out, I read the testimonials of guys who own these dolls, and even women who own the man Real Dolls (those things make me laugh even harder than the female dolls. They have pictures of the male dolls just hanging out in a bathtub, on a couch, oh man its hilarious), and it was SO weird to see so many people from all over the world talking as if these dolls are real people. Talking about their personalities and such.

    Ill just hang out with my cats and dog when Im lonely. Seems more natural to me then an expensive plastic doll.

  • Mercedes

    This guys never grew up. They live in a fantasy world. Maybe, like another post said, is a higher level of masturbation, but the images that comes to my mind, on a relationship like this people have, is necrophilia...
    I feel really sorry for this men, this is sick and sad.

  • Courtney

    thats soooo f***** up ... i think they're crazy!

  • Rhonda

    Okay...these men (with the exception of one) seem to understand that these are just dolls, and would give them up if they had a real woman enter thier lives...but I am DEEPLY disturbed by "Davecat". He is a VERY strange little man...I would be afraid of him if I ever met him...he is ludicris!! I have never seen anyone that was so disturbing in my entire life! Crazy...

  • Rhonda

    Oh yeah..I think the guy from Virginia, USA is wierd...he makes me think of a serial killer or a necropheliac..

  • Rhonda

    Don't get me wrong..I don't think it's strange to have the dolls or use the dolls for pleasure..I think it's strange that some of the men have a distorted view of reality...these dolls are NOT real, yet they are being treated and seen as real..it's just wierd..just sayin'...

  • Kelly

    I can't help but agree with the guy from Virginia about his views on companionship and how people use one other for self gain. I think like that too. Doesn't stop me from interacting with others though. I'll admit that it's not the best to get one of them Real Dolls to help your situation. Talk to the ladies! They won't bite 50% of the time!

  • Charles

    lol awesome, I want a doll now, they don't complain like my wife.

  • Kostas

    From a psychologist's point of view, what we possibly witness in the people's stories presented, is a rather "mentally fatal" triangle: depression - addiction (in the means of acting out)- punishing superego. The most indicative story was the hang glider's one..
    Quite astonishing subject i suppose and a lot to be said about issues which were meant not to be discussed between the heroes of the stories and themselves. By this i mean that, it s surely a matter of defending yourself, through primitive denial, regression and projection, from the worst of the reality you face. And that's possible by giving life and meaning to something so unreal and not to your reality.
    Many thanks to the uploader and a hope the heroes of the stories seek the appropriate help for themselves sometime.

  • knews

    Wasn't there an indie movie like this? It was really cute.

  • JP

    I'm just out of an 8 year relationship, I do not want another woman at this time. I think having one of these dolls would be great.

    These guys just seem to not understand THEY ARE JUST REALLY FANCY TOYS!!

  • Penguin98

    Jody is hot!!!

  • Mikey

    "she just lies there, they'r very static" BUAHAHAHAHA

  • Sean

    That repair guy was a trip. Was I the only one reeling when the handyman/technician who they hire to fix their "girlfriends" said that he had had sex with some of the dolls. The cheeky smile on his face. Like he was really sticking it to his clients..you know he's got not much respect for them and it his pleasure to play with their sacred dolls..like sleeping with a best friend's wife..only it's a DOLL! like "hey, i masturbated on/in your doll dude, what you gonna do about!" The repair guy's girlfriend saying she was "intimidated" by the dolls? uh? Maybe deep down inside she knows he has sex with them. He went so far as to unload one of those things off the crate and remark.."oh, she's a pretty one". LOL! Even he's into rubber and not female human..despite the not so well concealed contempt he has for the doll owners and their obsession with having sex and even relationships with a rubber dolly.

    Interesting piece. A great insight into the complicated workings of the mind. I guess it's just easier to project all your fantasies and expectations of some unreal concept of a "woman" onto a doll than deal with a real person. I was quite surprised that these guys take a lot of time putting full slap makeup with lipstick and all on this dolls. I guess they like their girls painted up. And with the frocks they like. It was very telling looking at what clothes they put on them, how they stored them etc of the man. One threw them in the garage and under the bed and had g-strings on them, another made his one and only doll up and sleep with "her" in the bed, and the other had his two dolls dressed up like 1950s women..and his mum died and he kept talking about her and lived like ed gein crossed with norman bates..easy to tell he had a very serious oedipus complex.

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    Excellent doc.

    I see it, or rather the people they choose to portray, as nothing more than a way to gaining domination and submission, without the nastiness that goes with doing that to carbon life forms. To some men, that gives them control of their surroundings, and relationships. The people they followed also, on top of that, had very calm and non violent tendencies. None of them seemed capable of defending themselves, either physically, or mentally. It seems, for whatever reason, that they have been submissive to others in their life, and as a result, have lost some control over some part of their personality. To get that back, they will reverse that roll with their dolls. The abused always kick downwards. It doesn't come lower than latex.

    It is very strange. It is. But to our knowledge, they had not been violent towards women, they all seemed VERY open and honest, and they all seemed solvent. They may be strange, but what makes them compelling viewing is that fact that they had, overall, some very powerful and positive character traits, not normally associated with sexual deviancy.

    Most talked about a poor self physical image. Well, I disagreed with them. Sure, they were not Levi 501 jeans commercial guys, but they were not bad either. I know many who look worse, and they are not sexually warped, or feel that no women like them. Women value character too!!!! Their views of themselves became cemented in not what others thought, but what THEY thought others thought.

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    Life Observer.

    It was a documentary, about dolls and a few men's interactions with them. I have no idea why you have gone off on a huge rant, finger waving at others, but it does seem to have rattled your cage more than most.

    Just a life observation.

    Sean - I too was tickled by the repair man. I thought the idea of them hanging up by their neck was just scary. But worst of all, when the guy at the end cleaned the dolls private parts and said. "Yeah, they start to smell of fish after a while", and then pulled out this cloth from the woman covered in yellow ahhhhhhghjfcrugcsugnsoasuecfausdBaudS.

    RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY.

  • piscesdream

    This reminds me very much of the special I've seen on women who fall in love with inanimate objects, like the 1000 Nacht ride or various bridges. I can't completely hate these men because they are literally weakness and loneliness embodied. Some of the men have serious social issues and just by the way they describe their relationships with the dolls and how they feel about women in general, I can tell that the dolls are more 'coping mechanisms' than actual solutions.

    On a final note, a few times I wished the documentary would show a woman with a male doll, just to mix things up, until I saw just how ugly the male dolls are/kinda scary.

  • Sean

    @piscesdream :I don't think they sell that many to women. Only my guess. The people designing and making the dolls are men..and men's men at that. The male dolls looked like they were made by men for men. Just like with pornography, I guess there are no heterosexual women making fantasy male dolls for heterosexual women. I also wonder whether the typical playboy/porn fantasy figure that the all female dolls seem to have (they all looked pretty much the same..big tits or bigger tits being the only real difference) appeal to lesbians? Or maybe there really is no female market for any of this hence no incentive to be making dolls for women. Would a woman want one? Would women buy dolls to live with? That is an interesting question. Given the right dolls could there be women who have been waiting for the option to be fulfilled by and project their fantasies onto dolls.

    @bigdipper: the problem is these not so good looking men, with not much in the way of being interesting and dynamic men either, seem to want (judging by their dolls) "perfect" looking women. i think they fantasize about women that in practical terms they would never get. the orders lady at the factory said it..they have old men with no hair etc who say they could never get a girl as good-looking in real life, so they need a doll (rather than maybe date a woman of their own age, with her hair falling out or whatever who may miraculously actually like him).

    Well at least they make dolls for these guys. Without that men like these would be scaring women, stalking them, having abusive controlling and domineering interactions with vunerable partners or in the case of the last guy most probably being physically sadistic or deviant sexually...I found him hard to figure out..instead of the harem of dolls dressed as street walkers I was wondering why he wasn't just sleeping with hookers..but maybe it just practically costs too much to have 8 hookers a night every night.

    It keeps a person who would be doing some sort of damage to other people (or themselves) pre-occupied with something inanimate which can not be hurt (but damaged, worn out and then have parts repaired or replaced or disposed of) and comes with no consequences to themselves or the other emotionally or physically.

  • Sean

    @ J: I think you were onto something re ~piscesdream's~ question. When men have this situation or "affliction" they get sex dolls, but women seem to get pets..the whole crazy cat lady thing. Also men and women who use their dog as a replacement for a person..they are man's best friend and all but there is such a thing as going overboard with it. No offense. I'm sure you are not in that category..LOL.

  • Mart

    An aberration that should be observed, catalogued, but never taught as a goal or necessity. It can never be humorous because most can't relate to it. Pure theater and not surprising given the level anxiety and self-absorption, by way of the celebrity and war culture, ruining our global society. Couple that with the irrational monogamy and marriage paradigm and what we have is total pop psychopathy.

    Wonderful.

  • Allen

    This remind me of the manga "Chobits", where people look for companionship with mechanical dolls rather than with human beings.
    The main plot is that no matter what kind of AI you give a doll it will never go beyond it's algorithm.(let's not debate about AI).
    In the manga, people were afraid of other people as they could suffer all the fears that those dudes have gone through.

  • Lainy

    This is really creepy. They keep saying that they know the doll loves them back no matter what... No, no it doesn't. It's an inanimate object.

  • Dave

    Yeah its really weird and we all don't understand it and arn't used to it. I'm not saying I'm going to go by one but really I don't see anything wrong with it. It actually really therapeutic for many people who just have different personalities and keep maintain a real relationship. I think this is just going to get more and more popular.

  • swing

    I'm 26y old, i had mny relationship, but i think now that the hell is women
    I'm with a girl now, beautiful physicly, but she is a real bitch, and seriuosly i plan to buy one of this dolls and be free, no need women anymore
    french-lover
    (excuz my bad english)

  • Joe

    That guy in Virginia had a bad ass Charger! He should have no problem getting poontang with a sweet ride like that.

  • Karen

    These guys are pathetic and weak. Not to mention repulsive. How come none of you can figure out that women can pick up on pathetic and weak and it is not attractive! We want real men and if they have morals, manners and kind hearts then that is a real lucky catch. By the way, women do not want abusive sluty men, the pickings are just slim since one out of four is abusive and it's anybody's best guess at sluty. That's a 25% failure rate and if you didn't know before you had kids with them then you are stuck with the coward. Bottom Line: women want someone who will provide and protect.

  • Karen

    The creapy repairman should really wear gloves; disgusting!

  • http://shidathecheetah.com Shida the Cheetah

    The 'repair man's wife is delusional... Because he OBVIOUSLY has issues screwing other peoples sex toys and doing all of that without gloves on. Just think of all of the disease they're spreading...

  • Form the C

    I really don't think that men are of an being "centurys questing themselves and understanding the network of feelings within", therefore this type of feelings, they try to cure, can be dealed with in what emotionally and mentally healthy people would find a waste of energy.

  • jack

    i bet all the astronauts have one hidden in their spaceship. :p

  • Bob

    Wonderful documentary.

    All I could think about though is why Christian Weston Chandler doesn't have one of these...

  • Eff

    I didn't bother watching this doc. I just wanted to read the comments. Well...gotta go Its time to let my girl friend outa the closet....

  • james

    That's disturbing !!! so whats future now?? will humans

  • Jessika

    That Davecat guy was the freakiest one, hands down. And how could that one guy afford EIGHT dolls!? Thats just ridiculous! Thats at least 32 grand!!! Hmm... dolls? Or a brand new car? Psh.

  • Jessica

    they're so lonely! so damn sad... and creeeepy

  • http://henk.nl doll lover

    very good documentary! Liked to read this comments as well.

  • Marley

    It's really sad. The most disturbing thing about this for me, is the men who just don't seem to understand that women have a personality just like them. Like... why aren't they impressed with your hang gliding? because they're looking for a person, not a list of cool things you do. They don't seem to understand beyond the physical, at all

  • Fi-licious. ;)

    Wow, this documentary...

    K...I see every man who was shown here (except for the guy who HID his dolls under his bed) are very lonely men, who do want companionship without the 'crap' involved. LIFE OBSERVER... I highly doubt you are a 23 year old vigin. I've read your postings and see that you have a very high vocabulary arsenal and other OLDER AGE ditties that give you away. Maybe you are 23... but IT IS OKAY for others to be shocked at this kind of thing. I was too... but in a sad way. I'm 38 (this week) and have had my fair share of rejection and "hey baby howz it going?" in my lifetime. I'm 6'1", a red head and fairly slim...although I got married 2 years ago to my soulmate who looks like Christian Bale...--- I'm still lonely... I still get these pangs of "Is He REALLY attracted to me?" I've gained 25 pounds since we wed and I see the lovemaking lagging somewhat. I KNOW if I went to the gym... ate better and fixed my hair somewhat (it's VERY curly,long and red) that I'd be a knockout. It makes me uncomfortable and somewhat angry. I don't want to look like a slob, but then, I don't want to be some random stranger's sexual fantasy either. I've had married men proposition me (I was really saddened and disgusted by this--- ja, I might be a rarity but I try to put myself in the women's shoes... and get so mad at their partner FOR THEM)...

    I sympathize with the guys on this doc, because it's hard no matter what side of the looking glass you're on... --- If you're attractive, you get EVERYONE wanting to talk or f*ck you...which feels absolutely gross... -- I'm sorry guys but it's not okay to just go up to any woman you find attractive and try to do a few pick up lines to boost your ego. :( It's not a bitchy thing to say "hey, not interested.. and it saddens me that guys get SO MAD when they are 'rejected' by women who look like those fake dolls. ;( People have the RIGHT to say 'no thanks'...

    I have even made serious blunders of approaching guys "out of my league' just to feel better. Uhhh... nope... that's not the way to go. I believe no one is out of anyone's league, but if you don't feel confident within yourself... have your crap together... then don't expect someone you KNOW to be what you WANT to shun you. Again, it's happened to me...several times and I spent a dry spell of 4-5 years (2x!!) by myself because I could NOT meet someone whom I "CLICKED" with... --- It's not just the 'unattractive' folk (which, I think everyone has a sexy quality about them so it's really how you feel about yourself)... LOOKS do have something AT FIRST, but if you feel GOOD ... REALLY GOOD about YOU... then people will see that. Unfort. these men, who are not bad looking, really felt that about themselves, they WOULD have the faith they'd be in relationships sooner than later.

    Dolls are not the answer. They don't challenge your behaviours or make you a better man or woman. They allow you to do whatever you please and folks, we know how we are when we get what we want... we don't RESPECT the end result.

    Live life ... people will be jerks (it's them protecting themselves). If you genuinely feel good about you, --- you won't give a CRAP and eventually you will meet a real flesh a blood person LIKE YOURSELF who will LOVE YOU BACK FOR REAL. ;)

    The dude who said he wanted to be buried with his two dolls so they'd all decompose together... I've got some news for you buddy... these dolls will be decomposing for the next 1,000+ years. While you're 'powder' on their faces, they'll be good to go for another few hundred or so...

    Take it from me... (someone who has been beauty and NOT beauty)... go for the real flesh and bones...

    That's life... that's living to the fullest without a fantasy thrown into it...

    good luck Life Observer... you CAN find true love in the flesh and blood. ;) trust me!

  • Evil Twin

    Never had a problem with rubber dolls or feeling attached to objects, hell, I talk to my computer, I give it names, I even sleep with my laptop (it has its corner right next to my pillow) and I feel kinda sorry for it whenever my gf spends the night over and I have to put it away but that's it. I guess paying 4 grand for a doll is NOT something I would do because it takes little effort and little expense to go out to the bar, find a girl, have a chat with her, exchange phone numbers and take her out to dinner when the time is right. I think it matters little whether that person you meet at the bar becomes your lover or not, in any case you met someone new and probably had a nice conversation.

    I don't find it weird however, that some people would rather share their most intimate moments with dolls. I just think it's easier to actually go for the real thing, plus it costs less :D

  • Eff

    Gas up the car. Inflate the tires. Blow up your doll in the backseat. Drive off a cliff.

    NOW THAT'S SATISFACTION. For all of humanity. (what became of real life partners)?

  • Dot

    We complain when men treat women like sex objects, then we turn around and complain again when men treat sex objects like women. I guess we can't have men ever treating women like real human beings at any point, it's beyond their abilities.

  • Anonymous

    Well, Life Observer, don't beat yourself up too bad. I'm three years ahead of you and still a virgin. Every girl I've ever asked out has rejected me. After so many times you just give up.
    Having an imaginary relationship with a doll is a lot more appealing to me right now than to continue living life feeling alone.
    A lot of women don't find men like myself attractive, so I don't really see what all the fuss is about. Just think of it like one less loser in the dating pool for you to weed through.
    I really think these dolls can help to alleviate the misery of some people. Once technology becomes advanced enough to be able to have a conversation with a love doll some lonely women will probably opt for virtual love as well.

  • Dot

    Anonymous,

    What kind of women have you been asking out? Have you been asking the air headed women who look like the plastic dolls depicted in this documentary? Because if you have, I am not surprised that you were rejected. These women are very shallow and do not look past anyone's appearance. There are many women, myself included, who do not go for a man's looks, but rather for his personality.

    A man can be extremely good looking, but if he is arrogant or seems like he lacks confidence, we steer clear of him. We do not want to have to mother him. If a man is fat but is cheerful and likes to help other people, makes sure he takes a shower everyday and is positive in his life, we will follow such a man. Now if he has self esteem issues due to his weight, we will avoid him for that reason, not because he is fat.

    I noticed that most of the men in this documentary position these dolls in very unnatural ways. Which real woman would want to dress up like a hoochie mama and have wierd looking makeup on her face? A disturbed 12 year old? These men's idea of women is something that does not exist, hence even when they do approach women, they are most likely giving off a wierd vibe and women pick up on it and avoid them like the plague.

    The guy in Virginia with the 'bad skin' and 'skinniness' has problems in his head. Really, I don't see anything wrong with his physical appearance. He could have moved to a place with more people than stayed in the countryside like he does, he would have definitely found someone. It may not be a woman who is constantly on a diet and wants to have herself suspended from a hook while dressing up as a prostitute, but someone who will like him for him. And he needs to learn to adjust, relationships do not have to last forever and people move on.

    Any man on this planet should know by now that men are meant to be rejected a million times. Those that adjust well hit on everything that comes their way, and move on pretty fast when they get rejected. It's like being a salesman, you pitch a product, if they don't like it, you pitch it to the next customer.

    Anonymous, you have some serious growing up to do. In the meantime get yourself a nice job so you can afford your lack of adjustment and be able to purchase these items you need for fulfilment. There are women out there who might like you, you just don't seem to like them back. The only person happy with your situation is the one selling you the dolls, everyone else weeps for you.

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    Amazing recent posts. All credit to this amazing documentary.

    Really, the amount of times I have seen hot hot hot chicas, and thought "wow". Then, they open their mouths, or polish their nails, or pull out a mirror, and then "bang". It disappears. Also, the amount of times I have met chicas, that, on first impression, do not look too hot. But then they get in your face. They show off their faults, they show how comfortable they are within themselves, and then suddenly it is "wow, who is she. I so want a piece of her".

    Looking good is looking good, but being sexy is a totally different thing. Being sexy is 100% no more than an attitude. If you are comfortable within your skin, then others will be too. It is all about confidence.

    I am not saying I am sexy at all, far from it, but I have a mole, a big mole, in the middle of my face. It is amazing the amount of times I have said to people, who have known me for a while, that I have a mole, and they look at me like "WHAT, WHERE". Then they go "Oh, that". It is quite big, but because I don't care, neither do I. They don't notice, because I don't notice. They don't care, because I don't care. Indeed, when you meet people comfortable with their faults, they become comfortable about theirs.

    Some personal stuff here. The best sex I have ever had has always always always been with characters, not bodies. It is unbelievable how sexy and thoroughly wonderful it is, to be naked with women who put you at ease. These women have stretch marks, cellulite, a bit of flab, short legs, whatever. What makes them sexy is they don't give shit, at all, and so neither do I. Far from it, they are proud, and want to let you get in there and revel in it. Good friends, and good sex comes from those who are comfortable in their own skin.

    TRY IT OUT. I PROMISE YOU IT WILL WORK.

    Being sexy has never ever been more than an attitude. This should give us all hope, as the catwalk models can go play in traffic. Give me a woman who is happy to be a woman, and wants to show you every little part of her, and remain proud. Vulnerability, and your ability to let it wash over you, is what gives sex it's ultimate scenario. Two people getting of on each other, no on someone else's standards, but your own. And whatever your standards are, are as good as it will ever get, and that is just always going to be awesome.

    I know it is easy to get caught up in the catwalk perfection that is rammed down our throats, but trust me, there is nothing sexy in being judged. Sex is personal and private. When two people get together, celebrate how they look and who they are with complete confidence, then really, it just does not get better than that.

    Nobody is ugly. It is how others make you feel that does that. Ignore your image, love your self, make peace with your body, and someone, somewhere will do that with you. You do not need everyone to love you, just one person, who will make you feel like a million dollars, and will want to screw your brains out.

    P.S. Avoid the young chicks with no confidence (you'll recognize that by how much "over the top" effort they make to keep themselves looking like magazine covers). Go for those who have had time to make peace with themselves. Damn, if only they had told us it was that easy when we were young!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Dot

    Big Dipper, you are wise.

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    DOT.

    On this, maybe so. On other matters, maybe not. I am a long way off from being Fu Mang Chu. But I do my best!!!!!!!!!

  • D-K

    when I accidentally clicked on your username, "big dipper", in a doc on sex takes me to a site on Cave Diving called underworldadventures..

    It's just the right amount of a good thing, and I applaud your audacity.

  • D-K

    Some of you people seem to equate altruism with true love, a concept that may sound nice, but is utterly unrealistic.

    True love is incredibly hard to find, if even existant, so your best bet is to find someone that is both mentally and physically compatible to the greatest possible extent.

    It is a life's quest, most people just get distracted along the way and settle, either due to loss of hope or convenience, never to be happy, never to be completely fulfilled. Finding good love is to know yourself, and judge yourself objectively, then research a person's personality and see if it's compatible with your own.

    It's not rocket science, it just takes fortitude and effort.

  • D-K

    Hmm, messed up my first sentence... pretty badly at that, it should say:

    Some of you people seem to equate altruism with true love, this is incorrect. A combination of the 2 is also utterly unrealistic.

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    Anonymous, Life Observer

    Hi

    Dot is right. Choose someone who no-one else is going for. Make sure that you like her as a person, and that she has some warmth and kindness in her heart. She doesn't have to be "the one", and neither do you have to be that for her. Ships very much do pass in the night. Don't let her hide her physical faults. Make her feel at ease and relaxed about them, if the situation arises.

    Maybe don't be so serious about it all. It is just stuff.

    THE most sexiest thing on anyone is a smile. Even with junk teeth. A smile puts people at ease. And by the way, you smile with your whole face, not just your mouth.

    And listen. Nobody likes a man who talks about himself all night. Listening to her will open her up. Ask her questions. Take an interest. Learn to be relaxed and confident with a few pauses of silence between words.

    Most of all, don't go out with "UP FOR IT", or "DESPERATE FOR A SHAG", or "PLEASE, THIS IS CHARITY", stamped on your forehead. It is about as attractive as a woman who has "looking for a husband" stamped on hers.

    Don't be ashamed of being a virgin at all, and she won't either. And don't be afraid to let her know. Not in the first sentence, obviously, but when the conversation is right. Let her know that you do not care, as it is your life, and no-one else's. It is what it is. It just has not happened for you that is all. Don't take it seriously, or get intense about it. Don't let your virginity become an issue for others, and don't treat it like you need charity. Sure you would like to lose it, but you are not going to sell it cheap. It is not that you want a wife or life partner, but you just haven't met anyone who you have felt relaxed and at peace with, on a mutual basis. Give it value, and be proud for that. Let them know you are shy, and maybe do not have the confidence to take the lead, but you would be relaxed and happy to let someone hold your hand and gently show you the way, and who will treat you with respect. Explain that you are a very passionate person, but that this is not ruling your life, and dominating your every thought. (I know it may, but try and let go of that). It will only be awkward if you make it so. The bottom end of it, is that you haven't gone out to a prostitute to get your rocks off. That is a plus for a woman. It shows a level of respect, respect lacking in many others "catches".

    I feel embarrassed for writing this, as who the hell am I. But I promise you, that women do want you. You have just yet to meet the right one, and you have possibly yet to approach them in the right way. Not all women want intense relationships. They want a friendly man to watch a film and have some fun with once in a while, who will make them feel good about their body and not feel bad like magazines and nightclubs do. But you can't do that, until you start to do that to yourself.

    Avoid bars and clubs. They are full of insecure drunk opinionated egos. Dating agencies are great, as they are full of people who do not want to go to bars and clubs to meet someone. It does not mean they do not like going to bars and clubs, but they just don't want to meet someone at these meat markets. It is not their venue.

    Don't give up. But give up the negativity. You have opened up to us, and your honesty has an amazing attraction written all over it. You have made yourself vulnerable, and that has allowed others here to do the same. Be confident within yourself to do that in person. If it doesn't work first time, or even tenth time, laugh about it. It is not that much of an issue, and will show your maturity. Honesty, confidence and vulnerability puts others at tremendous ease, and makes you interesting to know.

  • Dot

    @Life Observer

    I guess you missed a couple of points I was trying to make.

    Do you want these men to date maladjusted women (based on their terrible circumstances) or do you want them to date normal people? It is bad enough the men are messed up in the head, two messed up people does not equal one balanced person. Dressing up like a prostitute is not fun, even for the prostitutes themselves. Which normal woman, coming from normal circumstances would want to be around these men who want her to dress this way?

    About him getting a job, I was being sarcastic. If he keeps whinning like this, the only alternative is for him to work for a doll, rather than work for things that are actually useful in someone's life.

    I guess you are very young. I am 31 and I am done babysitting men. Men are immature most of the time, there is no way I am going to pick up where his mother left off. I'll leave that to the young inexpericed girls who are ok with wasting their time mothering an overgrown baby. Why don't you try dating older women. They'll put up with your childishness and use you for sex. If you get a sugar mommy you can get some of your bills paid. You don't have to restrict yourself to immature agemates. Wanting to be mothered or wanting to spend too much time with someone is crazy and suffocating. A well adjusted person has their own personality and enjoys their own time. Otherwise we would all still be sucking our mother's tits and holding their dress hems while they walk in front of us.

    There are so many women in the US who open their legs for free, forget the gold diggers. If you want to get laid, go ahead and ask to get laid. Don't ask for it in a creepy manner, don't expect to just hit it and disappear, and if the woman wants out for whatever reason, move on. If you can't do this, like I said before, make the ownership of the doll your sole purpose (like there are no better causes in life) and go head and work towards that.

    No I don't care to learn his name. It doesn't increase my paycheck.

  • Dot

    @Big Dipper

    You just made my following 'angry' comment make me sound like a b*tch. Yours is more balanced and contructive, mine is just angry and I wonder if it could help. But thank God for other people's comments. :)

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    LIFE OBSERVER

    You do not have to wait until you to turn 30 to 40 to get friendly by a 30 to 40 year old. You can do that right now. And I thoroughly recommend it with a full 5 stars.

    Is there anyone else on this board who would disagree that a 30 to 40 year old would not be interested in a younger guy, or that they would not be just AMAZING in bed? It gets better as you get older, not worse. It is just that older people don't shout about it so much, and retain a private life with more dignity. Experience counts. Not the sexual experience itself, but the life experience. Less emotional baggage, and more at ease with their physical self. Maturer people enjoy the eye contact. It makes us feel connected to each other beyond just the physical, and with much more passion and acceptance for who we really are.

    Remember - THE FINEST SOUPS ARE MADE IN THE OLDEST POTS. There is no rule about dating older chicks. Indeed, I am sure that with an age difference, it eliminates any possibility of "oh my God, is he the one, isn't he the one, is he Mr IT, or MR not". When that disappears you can just get to hang out , have some fun, and share intimate moments without any pressure or demands for pending relationships.

    And that is exactly what you need. Go forth young man. Your time has yet to come, and you have it all to look forward to. If it was easy, then you do not value it as much when it arrives at your feet. That is just a fact. It is all relative.

    The guy who had 8 dolls. Well both him and his potential partner were talking of "is he/she the one". It never works, it puts on too much pressure, and takes away what could be a great friendship. Sex and relationships, at the beginning, are two entirely different things.

  • Dot

    @Big Dipper

    Well said. I prefer younger men not only for the amazing sex and lack of back problems, they can go for many hours. I prefer 8 to 11 hours, older men can't handle that. They have erectile dysfuction among other issues.

    Also, younger men make me feel better because they are still positive about life, reality hasn't set in. Older guys have time weighing on them. I have the same problem so I do not like to hang around people who are as gloomy as I am. Younger men are a breath of fresh air, and I always tell them to tell me if they find a gf and want to move on, I am fine with it. There's always another young man in line anyway.

    @Life Observer

    Go for older women. I think you have everyone's blessing, mine included.

  • vampire taco

    look like all you guys can't last without sex it seem relationships are based on sex

  • vampire taco

    @Dot what type of men you go for, quiet,the popular one or the ones who are outspoken

  • vampire taco

    @dot what do you mean by "reality hasn’t set in. Older guys have time weighing on them"

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    Hi DOT.

    Not at all. You are talking about the dolls, and I was talking to the boys. I think you are right to question the motivations of the men in the film. It is clear to me that they are not replacement girlfriends, as the individuals in the film suggest.

    You see, I see something different with the dolls. Apart from the hang glider guy (and again, I am not too sure), there was something sinister about their motives.

    The hang glider guy had issues with his dead mother. That was obvious. He had not moved on, and found relationships with dolls less intimidating as a result. I am sure his mother had made it difficult for him to see other women, and he now experiences huge guilt trips and paralyzing fear when faced with real women. The film only showed us what it chose to show us.

    But the other guys. Hmmmmmm.

    There are obvious correlations here with control. Total and absolute control. Necrophilia is an unusual issue. The reported basis of it, is two fold, and very separate. First, there are those who want to be involved with a limp body, giving them total control during a sexual act. The sex is not about two persons, even though two are present, but very much about just the individual. The power comes from the fact that sex can be had with someone else, but that all the experience is just had by one. Every little bit of it. It is all about power and control of the sexual act, with another body. This is very much evident with these men.

    Second, and not always, there is the desire to have a dead body for the sake of control over someone else, as it represents the ultimate in control of others, not just during sex, but outside of the act of sex itself. That they can do to them whatever they wish, whenever they wish. The COMPLETE dominance has been correlated somehow with sexual pleasure. This gives them self worth by being seen as worth more than their victim, who is deceased. I did not see the latter in these men in the film. Who knows, maybe they were serial killers, but hey, I could easily see a Ted Bundy or a Dahmer buying one of these dolls if they knew they were available. I am not saying it would have replaced their violent rages, but this is something which would certainly have interested them. Indeed, the guy who repaired them said that some of them come to him in all sorts of destroyed conditions.

    In the film, these dolls made them feel better, not just sexually, but about themselves as people.

    I do not see that being the case with Life Observer (LO), or Anonymous (AN), at all. Indeed, I could see it being very much something that would give them no self worth, at all, and make them feel very much worse.

    I do understand their stance that the dolls are harmless, and indeed, with computers and pornography, millions of everyday "normal" people are exposed to sharing time with inanimate objects every day, for that is what a computer is. But the guys in the film, I believe, had deep seated issues with control, and possible sexual desires relating to areas of necrophilia. It is only a small tiny minute percentage of people with necrophiliac tendancies (way way under 1%) who actually do something about it. To have the desire, does not mean you do not value someone else's life, or that you do not believe it is a thoroughly wrong thing to do. The desire is there, in the mind, but the actual potential to see that desire through is very much non existent. It is a fantasy world, which is no way dominates any other moral codes that they have. These men in the films, I think, fall into that category (I hope), and their dolls fulfill that need, without crossing the boundary of their moral code. On that basis, I am not going to overly criticize these men, as they are not harming anyone in the process.

    Life Observer and Anonymous are very much not in that category. Obviously. They are just nice guys who have yet to find some intimacy. It is more than normal, and more than very common. Indeed, it is amazing the amount of young guys who lie about it and say they have done it, when they have not. I remember when I was 15, I had a grope and a rummage, and hey, I was suddenly not a virgin. I obviously was, but I felt it would make me more accepted, and somehow cooler. That says so much about how insecure and immature I was at that age, even though I did not realize it at the time. But I am sure that what I did was normal and common. It didn't make me bad, or wrong, but just a young teenager in a confused and rapidly changing world. I was lucky to find a nice girlfriend at 17. I told her I had lied to my friends. It made us closer. It isn't easy to find a partner, and that can be made worse when others sometimes make it look easy. The thing is for LO and AN, is to not worry about others, but to be patient, keep trying, and to keep a smile on their face throughout the process, and to not let it dominate their life. They shouldn't believe all the nonsense they read, or what others tell them either. The truth is always much more different than we think.

    After all, it is never the destination, but the journey that is always remembered.

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    FYI - even though I now work in a different field, I am a qualified psychologist. It doesn't make me good at it, but it accounts for why I can talk about it.

  • what?

    @life observer and big dipper
    take a breath. you talk too much.

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    I am not out of breath. I like to write.

    You have the option to not read, and can exercise it any time.

  • vampire taco

    @Big dipper are you still with that girl from high school or did she leave you after she took your virginity?

    also you seem like a FOLLOWER from what you said in the past about how you lied about you weren't a virgin to seem cool do you still care about what people say to you, do you base what people say about you and form your life around their opinions?

    I would love to know

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    No.

    But weirdly enough, I stay in touch. I had great school days, and we were all very close. She got married at the age of 26, I got married at the age of 39. We hung out for a couple of years, but you never do forget your first true love. She was a great girl. But it is too much to expect young kids to stay together. They should be out having fun, getting to know what works for them. It is almost cruel to get them to stay together. Experience shows that once they go to college, that's it for the childhood sweethearts.

    Yeah, definitely a follower in my youth. It takes time to grow up. No-one can be expected to be otherwise. Not any more obviously. I guess up to a point I care what others think still, as sometimes others opinions can act as a mirror to your own behavior which you may have been oblivious to, and which is detrimental to what you want to achieve. But in general, no, I no longer care like I used to. I mean I care what my parents and friends think, but again, only up to a point. Whether I care enough to do something about it is a different matter. But sure, I used to. I used to stay up with fashions, kept myself looking hip, trying to impress my peers, the usual stuff that we all do. Most of it is subconscious, but it doesn't make it any less so. Anyone who says that they do not follow, or have not is being extremely disingenuous. Conformity is a part of life. No-one is ever either a leader or follower. They are not mutually exclusive, and overlap in every aspect of our lives. I am not too sure what I was a leader in, but I am sure I was in some areas. But in general, we start off as followers, and from there, it allows us to become independent in our motives. The pressure to conform for youngsters is extreme, and has much importance for them. I think you care less about social conformity as you get older. And it is less stressful too!!!!!!!!!!!!! Age does have some benefits.

    How about you? What do you consider yourself to be. I too am interested.

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    Vampire Taco - Also, I am not too sure she took my virginity. As I remember, I very willingly gave it to her. There were no arguments whatsoever from my side as I remember!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Dot

    @Vampire Taco
    Hi,

    I can do without sex, I go for years without it. With 2 jobs and being in school fulltime, it's hard to have time to chase a guy down. So I only date over summer and end it when the fall semester starts. My books are more important to me than guys. That being said, I have to know a guy before I sleep with him. He must get into my head. If I was a guy then I would automatically be attracted to anything that moves but I just can't. This one night stand business freaks me out. Plus where I come from, we bury people all the time because of HIV so I do not take sex as lightly as I talk about it.

    I used to be needy and wanted to stay with the first guy I ever had sex with but like Big Dipper said, you will not be the same person 10 years from now. What makes you think you will want the same partner? Priorities in life change, so those who marry to early are likely to divorce or be married and extremely miserable.

    I used to think dating the quiet guy was a good thing. But it depends on why he is quiet. If he is quiet because he has self esteem issues, it always ends up badly. So I stopped trying to be the Red Cross for love for these kinds of sorry men. I don't like the arrogant types, but I do like the ones who seem hyper active, but not in a drug induced kind of way. I don't do drugs myself so I find it hard to cope with people who are high on something. So now I just go for guys who are active, appear to respect people around them, have an average IQ (sometimes I have a hard time being able to tell if a guy is joking or he is just not that smart), someone I can have a semi decent conversation with, someone who bathes (stenches scare me), and someone who is not willing to let me wallow in self pity by encouraging it.

    I steer clear of guys who try to grope me. Sometimes when I am dancing in a club guys think I might be drunk and try to put a bottle to my mouth, but then again what am I doing there if I expect to be treated better? But the club is the only place I can do wierd stuff and it's ok. I don't go home with anyone, I don't make out with anyone, and I don't want to know anyone's name. Infact, there's only one guy I dance with in that particular club. He's one of those who won't rub his thing on a woman (a particularly annoying habit some women such as myself hate), he might be drunk but if you are dancing with him and you don't want him to touch you somewhere, he gets it and stops. Other guys keep gropping and their excuse is that they are drunk and can't control themselves. This one is ok. My girlfriend and I dance with him all night, grab other guys and dance with them too, and he lets you touch him anywhere (well I don't touch his junk, that's creepy), but it's like dancing with a gay guy only he's straight. I could never date this guy even though he's body is great and he dances so well. Why? He drinks and smokes. And I'm not dating someone I picked up at a club.

    @ Big Dipper
    Thanks for the clarity.

  • Dot

    @Big Dipper
    Thanks for the clarity :)

  • Gokhan

    @Vilya

    "As well most of these guys seem too weak to be with a woman, that can oppose them in some way, have their own opinions, and can judge them in some way(as with ANY living person, not just a woman)"

    - They're not too 'weak' to be with a woman. You don't need to be strong to be with a woman. They just don't want someone judging them so much, nobody does, they're not weak, just tired. But I agree, the dolls are quite pointless in the long term.

  • Life Observer

    @(Big Dipper and Dot)

    After reading your comments about me dating an older women I have this to say, I already tried this and still am. Dating ladies who are 40 to 30 doesn't really help the situation for me at all. Remember I don't like adding sex to the mix in a relationship for at least 5 years in a relationship. I don't like to rush things. With this said eventually in the relationship I get dump right after telling them. Like you said (BigDipper) High School relationships don't last. I would know because when I was 14-18 and I told the girls I liked that I wanted to marry them when I got older, they either laughed at my proposal or called me cute for saying that.

    (The reason behind my 5 year wait to have sex plan):

    1.) I do so in order to prove my undeniable love for her. Not my Lust or use for her.
    2.) In order to prove my fidelity to the lady I plan to spend the rest of my life with. Not my inability to fight temptation of the flesh or what others call boredom in the bedroom.
    3.)To take things slow and get to really know each other before putting kids in the equation. I sure as hell don't want to be separated from the ones I love only to see them once a week or whatever. I want to be with my kids 24/7 in between work. F-uuuuuu--cccccccc--------kkkkkkkkkk Divorce I hate the word.
    4.) Just in case my relationship doesn't work out I can look back on it and say at least I didn't rush anything. I took my time to know her, and it just didn't work out. A.K.A Peace of Mind.
    5.) STD prevention on a safer level. If in the five years no one gets a STD then good!!! Peace of Mind again!!!
    6.) Un-want child prevention on behalf of the mother. One less Abortion I say. If partner keeps? It's one less single mom. I don't trust all step-fathers or boyfriends some are low, treat kids like dirt.
    7.) From the number comes the answer. Religion, pre-marital sex, adultery, fake divorce. If I marry someone I plan to keep them in my life not go our separate ways crap especially if we had kids together. I'm going to be all in my(fake-ex) Wife's business, at least well until the kids are 18 years old. After that I can remain in solitude in peace. Well unless my wife decides to come back to me. Remember, is it, or is it not Adultery to have sex with someone else after you get "divorced". "T'il Death do you part" means something, Divorce on the other hand was just created by the legal system.

    Right know it just seems like orgasms: (Penis size, how long you can last, are you sexually qualified/skill), money: (How much you got, what you work as, car and clothes) , and vanity: (The way you look, height, skin tone, race, hell hair color (gray hair!!!??)) are the main concerns of the world. Love: (the person you value most in life by choice, Some who values you just as much, a person you depend on to make the days seem better, Your best friend, a loyal companion, a person who excepts you for who you are, and last on my list the person who sticks by you during life's short journey. We don't live forever ya know) is nowhere on the list in this era.

  • Dot

    @Life Observer

    I think you are the way you are because of your youth. You also appear to be religious. I will say, there is no particular formular to a successful relationship. Would you condemn a good relationship just because the ones involved dumped other people in order to get into their current relationship?

    I am with you on STD prevention and celibacy, but for older women who are comfortable with the idea of sex without making the sex partner a life partner, this is definitely a deal breaker. I am pro-choice only because I am realistic, but I would also like to reduce the number of abortions.

    I do not think anyone can be one hundred percent sure of who they want to marry. I think you have spent a lot of time being indoctrinated into the whole marriage for life thing. That's not a bad thing, but it prevents you from seeking alternatives. Divorces help people get out of bad marriages, not just boring ones. And yes, sometimes people get married too early and end up divorced because guess what, they didn't think it through before they do. I always feel sad to see young people being encouraged to get married, always a recipe for disaster but then again who am I, I don't have kids who are about to get married.

    I think making a woman wait 5 years before you decide to marry and have sex with her might work against you. See for us women, our eggs are on the clock. If a woman wants to get serious with a guy and he is still confused or waiting, then she decides to move on. No need to end up childless just because a man could not make up his mind.

    Also another thing, virginity is very important before you lose it. I really wanted to marry the guy who took mine, but guess what, I would have been miserable. He's definitely not the right person for me, he wasn't the right person for anyone then anyway. He's grown up a lot since, he treats women better but I could never marry him, not even now. He already made a bad impression on me.

    I think you should look for women who have the same interests as you, like being a virgin and valuing things more than appearance and the like, but you also have to be ready for disappointment. Just because it didn't work out with one person does not mean it won't work out with the next one. I fall head over heels many times, and not in the crazy kind of way where it wears off in a few months. I guess I just don't allow myself to go really crazy like I did when I was younger, so I kind of keep a balanced view of the whole situation.

    One person cannot fulfill all your needs. And it would be a terrible burden to put on one person. I'm not suggesting that you should get as many people as possible for all your needs, just that you have to be realistic as to what you can get from someone. And by the way, sex within marriage is not always safe. I have seen countless people catch STDs because their partner felt the need to go outside the marriage. I think you have been indoctrinated to believe that marriage can be a good solution but I beg to differ. It's not the only way and you might want to look into other alternatives.

    People can hurt you, and even infect you with stuff that will kill you, but all this is part of the experience of being here on this earth. What do you do when the one you love and trust is the one who has served you your death on a silver platter? You have to come to terms with this reality so that your life is not on hold. Just be as careful as you can, be a good person, treat people well, do the best you can and then hope for the best. If your world gets turned upside down, learn to move on and guess what, you can be happy even when everything seems to be going badly. This might sound preachy and maybe too positive but I prefer to do this than be scared all the time.

    PS: My mom divorced my dad and went to marry a crazy guy. I wish she would have divorced the second guy too but she didn't. She was one of these people that believes in marriages lasting. Her life got worse in the second marriage. I do not believe divorce is a bad thing. She was running away from my family because she had issues with her in-laws, she should have done the same thing with the second marriage. The only problem is that she had alienated everyone and there was no support structure to help her get out of the second one. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

  • D-K

    @Life observer:

    Your 5 years abstenance plan is going to continue to make woman run for the hills. 5 sexless years in a relationship isn't ordinairy, it isn't normal.

    Your lack of physical needs isn't something you can force on other people, it is your personal "defect". I'm not saying you should give up on your ideals, i'm just saying that with this in mind, you won't have woman lining up. You should research this and find like-minded people. When you are fundamentally different in expectations concerning relationships you, realistically, stand no choice dating a woman who doesn't share your philosophy.

    That fact that you seem to be easily depressed would argue that you need to work on yourself. A lot. It is by no means wrong to have such a fundamentally different relationship philosphy, but you'll have to alter your expectations accordingly. You can't have the best of both worlds.

    The fact that you list many reasons lead me to believe that they are rationalizations, for if you truly believe what you say, you'd need but one reason.

  • vampire taco

    @life observer I agree with you what the hell is divorce this bullcrap never existed in the old days what divorce came around in America in 1701 309 years wow!!!!! divorce isn't real it's just made up by the legal system it was for if your partner was beating you or went insane, not because you aren't happy with him or her or as life observer said boredom another thing I feel women might be getting divorced for the money because I had a theory that if you got divorce that the women gets NOTHING the man get NOTHING but the things you own and not what the other person bought you only what you took with you to the marriage I WONDER have many women or men will be getting divorce then
    @D-K and DOT
    I wonder why does this five year thing scare women it seem to me like the only thing that want is sex lol I thought women wanted a guy who didn't see them as a object or are you girls just lying about that and you really want to be treated like this which would explain why women stay in abuse relationships
    well I am young so maybe I'm just naive I'm by the way 19

  • D-K

    @vampire taco:

    I didn't say that it scares woman, I said that it isn't normal. When you have specific idealogies about relationships and you're unwilling to make concessions in that ideology, then you shouldn't be surprised that the number of woman interested decrease significantly.

    It's good for a person to stick to their principles, but be realistic and face the consequences. Allow me to simplify;

    If you want to buy a car, you look around and make a choice out of the cars that are available in most cases. Life Observer wants a specific car, let's say a yellow Ford, made in 1991 with the original parts. This car is extremely rare, and Life observer gets depressed because he cannot find the car, and he begins to doubt whether this car even exists.

    This is what's happening. When you specify what traits a woman must have to an extreme degree, or you choose a trait that is very rare, you'll have to deal with the fact that such a woman is hard to find, and face the consequences.

    If you start blaming woman or society, you place the blame externally and you'll create a perpetual cycle of an unfair seeming life. This will make a person bitter, which will decrease the attractiveness of one's personality, which will decrease the odds of people being attracted to you. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy if you deem the world unfair.

    My opinion is that for a person to be so specific, they either have to be a very confident and strong person, or be able to cope with the loneliness.

  • Dot

    @vampire taco

    Men also get money after a divorce, if it turns out that they were earning less than the woman. So I would say that the playing field is being levelled. I don't think any normal person will be happy that their marriage failed. Staying in a marriage just because society forces you doesn't sound like a very happy life but I guess being your age then it might sound good. Someone might not be abusing you physically, but they are messing with your head and your self esteem.

    And this goes both ways, then you see a spouse who looks and acts like an empty shell because they are in a toxic relationship. By the way some people don't know how to be in a relationship but only as either the predator or the victim. I steer clear of such couples, I hate watching them abuse each other like that in front of me.

    About women not wanting to wait five years. Ok, I'll put it this way. Most men have nothing to offer women, at least not anything substantial. The only thing they can have an abundance of it company, and that can include sex. Women like to go dancing when they are stressed out, and that can be substituted with sex. So if you are not willing to go out and dance with her, and she may prefer to go dancing with her girlfriends or gay boyfriends, you might as well be interested in doing the other thing.

    Good sex is good for reducing mentrual cramps, and getting rid of bad tempers and the demons that come with hormonal changes women experience every month. Sex is very important to women, but more so if it is in the context of a good relationship. Random sex with random guys sounds more like a woman who is disturbed for whatever reason. Not that women are not attracted to random guys, they just don't necessarily act on impulses as much as guys might.

    So yeah, waiting for 5 years is a bit much. Not unless you are building mansions for my extended family and paying for my college education. I'd be like hey, I'm not getting laid but this guy is being this kind to me, let me hang around and enjoy the other non sexual perks.

  • D-K

    @Dot: "Most men have nothing to offer women, at least not anything substantial"

    I find that a rather disturbing viewpoint. It's as if you place the woman on a pedestal and the male is supposed to court endlessly in a vain attempt to earn her love. Relationships should be equal, a man's psychological needs are as prevalent as a woman's yet they are still stigmatized for it.

    I think men would have more to offer than mere companionship, and I believe you do yourself a great disservice not to look for more in them. Ego and self-esteem in men and woman alike are equally complex and both take tending to by the other party. Men and woman have the same personality traits, they just exhibit, maintain and nurture them differently.

  • Dot

    @D-K

    If a man can't even put a roof over his head, what can he offer any woman? If he can't offer his children an above average future, don't you think it would be absurd for women not to lower their expectations and become realistic?

    In the same vein, men look for women who can cook and clean, and most importantly, have sex with them. These are basics that both sexes look for before they start looking for other attributes. I think I'd be more concerned to be with a guy who can have a place for me to live, before I worry about what kind of company or emotional suppport he can offer. Same way a man would rather live with a woman who is willing to copulate with him, rather than just hang around with a nun knowing very well nothing is going to happen.

    When I made my statement I didn't mean that men are necesarily shallow in depth and needs. There's only so much you can get from someone, based on even how you said that these traits are exhibited differently depending on how they are nutured. And no, wasn't placing women on a pedestal. Why should anyone have to work overtime just to win a person's affection as though there are no other suitable subjects available? There are many fish in the sea.

  • D-K

    @Dot: I thought we were discussing matters of the heart/love, not the practicality of a relationship, but okay, i'm flexible.

    I see you're somewhat old-fasioned in your perception of the man "the provider" but let's work with that. A man can offer a woman nothing but himself, any other material goods are irrelevant at that point. Kids need a good childhood, kids need a loving family.

    I know for a fact that men don't look for woman who cook and clean, I'm not the ambassador of my kind but I have an overall good depiction of the wants and needs of men, being one. All the things you list are (should be) secondary, and though valid concerns, are irrelevant to the quality of the bond between a man and woman.

    When establishing a relationship, one does not generally think about the needs of the inexistant kids, or their future, nor does one care whether the pots are clean and whether one has eaten home-made casserol or take-out pizza.
    People should be realistic, with this I agree, but to factor in potential concerns that are a distant worry is senseless and unnecessarily complicates things.

    It has become apparant to me that we prioritize very differently and as such, cannot possibly come to any sort of consensus. These matters aren't fact, they are personal preferences and ideologies, I think it's wise to leave it at this.

  • Life Observer

    @(Dot)
    You know I have thought about it. I would love to be able to marry a nun but hey I’m pretty sure that’s a bad thing right.

    @(Dot & D-K)
    This money thing annoys me so much. I don’t give a dang if a chick is homeless (dated one still got dumped, even tried a prostitute same thing). Love I thought was about helping people you love or know during rough times. Even at the expense of yourself. Like I said I have discussed this with many people (strangers, friends, family, co-workers.) I’m just getting the same old same old responses. “YOUR out of my mind!!!”

    Okay here’s a tale from my past. When I was in 6th grade my best friend’s mom came to the classroom. She told us about being homeless, and a prostitute. After hearing her story I broke down crying in the classroom. She came over to me and asked me, “Why are you crying.” I told her, “because I didn’t want you to have to suffer” and “What if she were my mother?” After knowing that women go through this (The abuse, the sickness, and the mental pain) I couldn’t be another one of those guys.

    That’s why I not going to break my 5 year rule. I can’t make a relationship work only on sex. I won’t do it. I have to stick to my plans or just become another guy. Having sex with woman, after woman, after woman, in some supposed attempt at finding the right person.

    To me the right person is just a loyal lover, who’s on my side in life. She helps me I help her, simple as that. Looks don’t mean crap (everyone becomes older), Personality (well just be honest, loyal, dedicated.), money (don’t worry about such crap). Her height (who cares). Her wisdom or education standards (whatever). Jealousy isn’t one of my concerns.

    @ (Dot)
    Your mom staying with the A-Hole dude pisses me off some much. I heard before that some women think abusive guys are great lovers. They feel they can change them. My “favorite” response, it’s hard to give up on a relationship. Know I don’t know much about your mom’s situation. I will say this. I think your mother won’t end the relationship because she doesn’t think she can find another guy who’s right. Since you are still single and unmarried. She can’t stand being alone. Just my 2 cents. :)

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    Life Observer.

    Hi. You said " I can’t make a relationship work only on sex. I won’t do it. I have to stick to my plans or just become another guy. "

    Very true. I have many years on you, and I too have never ever ever met ANYONE who has made a relationship work on sex alone. It is impossible. That is because the success of a long term relationship has almost nothing to do with sex. At all. Whatsoever. A relationship is not even about love, because love is something that can not be defined. Love is something which is different for every person, and just describes a huge and wonderful plethora of emotions which makes us feel a certain way towards someone else. Loving someone and being "in love", are two totally different things. Being"in love" is no different to being in lust, and experiencing the freshness of a new person. Couples go from being "in love", when passions are high, to a state of loving each other in a more fuller and real sense, when the newness of the courtship has dwindled and been replaced by a feeling of mutual respect and tenderness. Loving someone involves, among many other things, respect, care, tenderness, compassion, honesty, and humanity. It is a partnership, where you decide to go through live supporting each others goals, and working towards common goals you set each other, as well as just accepting the other person for who they actually are. Sex exists within this boundary, but does not define it in any way whatsoever.

    Just another guy - I have some bad news for you. In general terms, we are all "just another guy". Sure, I know we all think we're special, but it is relative, relative to the individual doing the assessment. In general terms, we are all just another guy. Get over it, get used to it, and take control.

    You seem to have confused sex and relationships, which is why you have a 5 year rule. Equally, how do you know when two people click? Well, most people find out in bed. You may not like it, but it is true. You can come up with a list of all the reasons that make a relationship work, but sex does signify very early on, how that relationship will go. Two naked people are essentially two vulnerable people, exposed to the world in all their glory. How they interact in bed, does very much help people decide how they will interact in a partnership. To not have sex for 5 years is just silly. Why 5 years? What happens then? Why not make it 4 or 6 years? It sounds like a number you have plucked from thin air.

    You seem to be sabotaging your own sex life. Your testosterone is up when you are young - use it. Even though most have sex up to the day they pass away, they all know that sex when you are young is something not to be missed.

    I will go through your list.

    1. To think that people who have sex before 5 years are using each other is just nonsense. People like to share intimate moments. They just do. Waiting 5 years does not prove your love for her at all. Indeed, it proves you will put your goals above hers, regardless of what her sexual and passionate needs may be. This is, I am sorry to tell you, a ludicrous statement. Waiting 5 years does prove something, but it is not your love for her.

    2. If you spend your entire time trying to "prove" something, then there isn't really much trust in that relationship at all. If she loves you, or likes you, or whatever, then you would have no need to prove anything. Please think about that. Trust is essential for true love, and an eternal endeavor to "prove" something shows no trust at all, just a solipstistic enterprize on your own behalf.

    3. From the moment you meet someone, then kids are already on the menu!!!!! Oh man, they will see that and run a mile. Don't you think she wants to see if you a compatible first? This is actually quite selfish of you.

    4. Because of 1, 2 and 3, you will be looking back, as the relationship will not work.

    5 + 6. You can buy and wear condoms. And really, if you are thinking about STD's, then where is the love and passion there? Sure, if you screw around, it is an issue, but to wait 5 years to prove it? I am sorry, STD's are not your issue. Equally, what if you are together, and one of you develops an STD? How would you handle that? Would you leave, or try and support each other? What would love mean to you in a relationship - forgiveness or punishment? I am just curious.

    7. Your religion is that. It is yours. However, I would like to point out that the christian faith's approach to sex is warped and creates sexual deviants. Indeed, look at the catholic church. It is no wonder they are like that. They get their priests to abstain from sex. How absurd! Of course they end up raping anything they can find. If you were to not drink for 4 days, how do you think you would behave around a glass of water compared to others? Sex is a fundamental part of being human, and to deny oneself that can only lead to abnormal and suspect behavior.

    I do not think that the church is in any position to dictate to the world how to do what should just come naturally.

    The pope even bans condoms, which can prevent STD's. I am not religious, and I do not commit adultery, and I am married, very happily. I do not do commit adultery because God told me not to. I do it as it would be hurtful and disrespectful to my wonderful wife, and that I would not want to harm our relationship in anyway whatsoever. The idea that she may not find out is always there, but I would know, and that would inevitably change the way I interact with her, whether I like it or not. Do all people find others sexually attractive? Of course. How can we not? But there is no comparison between our imaginations and then acting upon those thoughts in real life. There just isn't. The fact that my wife finds other men attractive, and yet CHOOSES (not forced, but chooses) to spend her sexual fulfillment with me makes me feel very special. Adultery does not need a God to make it a poor thing to do.

    Your final sentence which says that the world cares about penis size, orgasms and money only is just laughable. You can speak for yourself, but you are certainly not speaking for me, and I am sure you do not speak for DOT, anonymous, or D - K either. My life is filled with amazing memories of fun times with great friends. I have a poorly paid but amazing job (I am an underwater speleologist) which takes me to places I want to go, and a wife who adores me and I her. She is not interested in penis size, or money. She is interested in orgasms, and we make sure that we regularly both achieve that, and we love doing that both together and alone. Our love is strong. This goes for most of the people I know. I don't know what company you keep, or what magazines and websites you maintain an interest in, but your view is your view. Please do not put that on the rest of us. Get real, and understand that you can only look after yourself, and talk for yourself. You would do well to concentrate on that.

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    DOT - Hi. Guys that go for 9 to 11 hours. Hmmmm. Well, it is a known fact that younger men have more testosterone, not less. This makes controlling themselves harder, not easier, and therefore they ejaculate more quickly, not the other way around. That is what the books tell us. I would be almost certain that the guys you do that with are either on ecstasy or cocaine. That seems to be my experience, and almost every other man I know. That would achieve that result, and so to knock older guys who take viagra (I am not one) seems a little harsh. I remember my hardcore party days very well, and indeed, I had some of the best days of my life, but in reality, life does not continue like that forever.

    Equally to go for 9 to 11 hours would make doing a job, and being a provider quite hard, and quite a demand on a man to be anywhere near realistic. The fact is, we all have great long passionate nights. But in reality, sex last about 20 minutes, and this type of sexual interaction represents by far the majority of sex had by everyone.

    D-K has a lot of very positive and common sense things to say. People's circumstances, as he points out, are never static, but change day to day, and relationships live and die by how both partners adapt to those unavoidable, and unstoppable changes that govern our lives.

    vampire taco - I would still like to hear what you consider yourself to be. I am still interested.

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    Dot05/12/2010 at 00:50
    @D-K
    If a man can’t even put a roof over his head, what can he offer any woman?

    Hi DOT.

    How about 9 - 11 hours of rollicking good fun!!!!!!!!!!!! When he's finished, he can mow the lawn, and put up those shelves that have been on your floor these past few months.

    ;)

  • D-K

    @Big Dipper:

    Way to read between the lines, good sir. I'd also like to stress that if a man is to support a woman/family, he is most likely working a full-time job and as BD pointed out, one would have to consume copious amounts of uppers to last half a day (even without a full-time job sapping his strength).

    It seems to me like Dot is looking for a man to please her, rather than a man to love her, as 9 hours of "rollicking good fun" is unfair to ask of a man who singlehandedly supports a woman/family. It is selfish and contradictory to expected behaviour as influenced by love.

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    Hi D-K

    OK, I think this is my last post on this thread. It's been nice interacting with you. Vlatko puts on a good show.

    I thoroughly agree with your comment.

    I am not proud of my drug consumption in my past, but neither am I ashamed. I had an amazing time. I had great friends, and we enjoyed what we did to the full, and knew, somehow, when the time was not right to continue. We were young and carefree. Ecstasy can make you go on having sex for hours. It was great fun, and wonderfully intense, as the drug heightened the sensation, with serotonin and love pumping through our veins. Cocaine is different, as it is less easy to spot in people, and less interactive with others, but it too does the same thing in making men last for ages. I enjoyed my time on this too, but the moment passed very quickly, and I moved on.

    I was a psychologist in a former life, and I have specialized in dealing with drug related issues. I can honestly say that the men DOT is finding to go on for such a length of time have to be drug fueled. NONE of this is any criticism of DOT whatsoever. At her young age, and with her independent freedom to enjoy her life, as long as she is happy, and in control of her surroundings, then full power to her. After all, when she is old and grey, she will look back and be delighted she did that.

    In the UK, I know that drug consumption among the youth is rampant, with at least 75% of under 30's having taken one form of class A drug at least once. Especially in clubs and bars, where the usage rises considerably. Personally, I am not making any judgement whatsoever, indeed, many, if not nearly most, will not continue drug consumption into maturity, and most agree it was a life enhancing moment.

    I am very sure DOT knows this too. You are correct that she is in a period of her life where she is not looking for commitment. She is looking for pleasure very much, and, if in that process, a man comes along who she feels differently for, then maybe she will do something about it. But this is how it happens. People who go out looking for the person of their dreams often get disappointed. It is very intimidating to others to go out with that approach. I am very sure DOT will one day get hooked, and he will have a bad back and be as miserable as she claims she is!!!! But until that point she is enjoying her youth, and will continue to do so until she, and only she, decides otherwise. Meeting life partners is a matter of timing as much as anything else.

    Self imposed sexual abstinence or repression always leads to major problems later on, and sometimes to worrying issues, and I would urge LO to reexamine his method. Not being successful in finding a partner is entirely different to denying it to yourself when the situation arises. Denying yourself these fundamentally natural desires is not a wise move. Imposing that on your partner as well is cruel, and has nothing to do with love, but control, and of course, nearly all well adjusted women will walk away from that very early on.

    Indeed, if you do not have a partner, then how can one deny themselves sex for a period of time. To put a time scale on it, means you have a partner who is willing to stick it out with you. LO does not.

    Divorce is indeed a legal man made issue. But so too is marriage itself. All of these are man made legalities, whereas our sexual lives are given to us by the universe from the moment we are born. We either embrace this gratifying aspect of our lives, in our own private way, or condemn ourselves to a life of sexual problems.

    It is no coincidence the church is so anti gay. People who impose unnatural restrictions to their own sexual behavior always end up making everyone else's sexual practices their own business. Hence the church's issue with homophobia. People who have not imposed sexual exile on themselves, do not care what others get up to in their private lives, just so long as they keep it private, and everybody always does.

    It is also why getting married too young leads to adultery, as the partners have not had time to explore their sexual beings, and the marriage itself then becomes a form of restriction on their real and true desires to others outside the marriage.

    If I was king, I would make marriage illegal under 25. I would require a 5 year engagement.

  • D-K

    @Big Dipper: And I agree with yours, except for that tiny little footnote... So close, yet I have to temporarily shut my complimentary cigar box, inches away from your otherwise deserving hand.

    In your last sentence, you actually UNpractice what you preach by putting up a restriction as you assume you'd know better than any youngster at the age of 20-25. As you said yourself, we experience love differently, yet we all experience it as a strong emotion or collection of emotions as you so eloquently put it. By setting such a restriction as king, you're assuming the role of the church. The only restriction you could realistically keep in place, without resorting to tiranny, is proper education on love and basic relationship etiquette. This is your strong suit anyway, I'd suggest playing into it. Don't take this personal (although I have a feeling you won't), it is most uncommon for me to agree with anyone on anything, seeing as my take on things is usually viewed as rather skewed/twisted.

    @Life observer: You're sexist, trying to shield woman from their own conscious choice, or their right to exercise their choice (and make stupid decisions along the way) is a freedom every being craves. Your personal classification and the links you set between certain types of behaviour are never correct when projected on someone else, and in the unlikely case that they are, you won't be thanked for making that decision for them anyway. By coming across bad relationships you have idealized woman as fragile beings that need protection from their own misguided notions and choices, which is hardly a turn-on for any remotely confident (well-adjusted) woman. And your motivation to be different counts for nothing as your actions are the same as that of an abusive spouse, namely you decide for them.

    Once you realize the error of your ways, you can let go of your pre-set relationship guidelines, and you can focus on what YOU actually want from a relationship, rather than what you think is best for the other party. I don't mean to be judgemental, but seeing as i'm mostly emotionally detached when it comes to these things, I have no urge to sugarcoat my words. Disregard them as spoken by an asshole or embrace them as spoken like a truthful realist, your call.

  • Dot

    wow, so many comments and one of the contributors is departing. Ok, here are my responses.

    I agree with someone who said my notion of what a man is in a relationship is different from his.

    I was alarmed when someone said that loving means giving selflessly to the point of someone's demise/expense. I disagree with this. You can love someone but you have to watch out for yourself. And this includes family members such as parents, siblings, and children. Don't get ruined just because you have the capacity to love.

    Clarification, I have sex only over summer, and only over weekends. So the 9 hour thing is like on a Saturday. I do not use drugs myself, none at all apart from sugar in soda and anti histamines. I try my best to avoid people with drug problems because I do not want to be sucked into their problems, so maybe this guy had drugs in his system, I have no idea, truly.

    I am not looking for a life partner right now because I still have things I would like to do with my life. Plus most men don't want to marry me not unless I am willing to drop some of my ambitions, so I can't afford to. The last boyfriend I had was really terrible in bed. It's not from my lack of informing him that I wasn't getting any orgasm, or suggesting what he should do. He was literally lasting 30 seconds and then would roll off me and try to cuddle. With time I began to resent him and stopped telling him that he should do some more. I mean, how do you tell an adult that you are not satisfied and he should do more?

    I could have dumped him last year but his brother in law died and he was in a fog for a while. I eventually had to dump him last month because I loathed him so much, having sex with him made me depressed. At least this time around I didn't blame myself, I am older now and I know not to let a man shift his lack of skills problem into blaming me for not being able to be satisfied by him. My first bf did that and wouldn't accept that it was his lack of trying that was not helping the situation. Anyway, the moment I dumped the most recent bf I felt a heavy burden lift itself off my shoulder.

    Substandard sex can kill a woman's spirit, I know that for a fact. I will not put up with it. And a partner who is not interested in trying out more things is just not worth it. So yes, I do like to have good sex but it doesn't mean I can't be nice to the guy outside of the bed. I used to cook and clean but with 2 jobs, why babysit a grown up who was doing fine? Remember this guy wasn't dead when I met him so it's not like he needed any rescuing.

    Anyway, good luck to everyone with fixing their dilemmas, I don't think there is a need to dismiss them as a gone case.

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    D-K of course nothing is taken personally. And I entirely agree. The thing is, in my rather puerile defense, I said "if" I was King. I am not the king, and neither would I want to be. It would be a responsibility I would not do well at, obviously, and a pressure I could do without. I think I enjoy it all much better watching from the sidelines, and feel my services are better placed from where I am currently sat.

    Thank you for your constructive and appropriate comment.

    Best wishes, Big Dipper.

  • D-K

    @Big Dipper: Good to hear. I would like to be king and try my hand at being a leader of many. Youthful arrogance supplies me with the confidence I need to assume I have the answer to all of life's problems, count it up as a by-product of my relatively young age :). Of course it'd royally (yes a pun, i love those) blow up in my face but i'd like to see how much I'd be able to influence lives in a positive way, mostly because of my often unique view on things and motivation for certain choices.

    I mentioned how I qualified myself as world leader in the "million dollar mind reader" comment section, twas a fun discussion, even if somehow it ended up in an oddly unifying preference of soft-drugs by the participants. It subject matter was, i believe to be, right up your alley as well.

    All in all, I have enjoyed our discussion, (former) psychologists often have acquired and adapted experience from multiple sources into a coherent and balanced view on things, and you were no exception. I love how this site is home to educated and articulate people rather than opinionated loudmouths, makes for interesting conversation.

    I too shall depart from this topic, as I feel I have maxed out my input, but I hope at some point we'll cross paths again.

    Cheerio, D-K

  • bb

    I read through every single tl;dr comment on this documentary, and it seems to me that a couple of the commentators have turned the people featured in it into an excuse to wax eloquent on their personal dramas. This is about how the people in the documentary have chosen to deal with their loneliness, not about 5-year relationship plans or whatever. We all have different ways of dealing with our emotions and our issues. Some people just can't relate to others on a personal level. Maybe after a while they don't even want to. It's not necessarily a bad thing, if they aren't hurting anyone. If they've decided that they'd rather have a relationship with a doll than go on being alone any more, who are we to say whether that's a good or bad thing?

    I'm a 17 year old girl, and I own a ball-jointed doll. They can be quite expensive as well, costing several hundred dollars on average, though they're not intended for sex. The thing that is attractive about these dolls is that you can create their 'personality' and physical appearance however you want. It's an exercise in creativity. They become like children to some people. This doesn't mean that they're weird or disturbed or anything. I'm fairly intelligent (2200 on my SATs) and I have a loving boyfriend 2 years older than me. Most of the people in the doll community are totally normal people. We might enjoy having a doll who we can pour our heart and souls into, who we can use to express a part of ourselves that we can't express any other way.

    There's nothing wrong with any of these men. It's a lifestyle choice that they've made of their own free will, and we shouldn't be judging them or trying to psychoanalyze them.

  • D-K

    @bb

    What comments/commenters are you referring to? As I see it, the first half of the commenting section is made up of judgemental jacka**es and the second half is made up of people discussing the mechanics in emotional human relations.

    The latter being fairly relevant to the documentary.

    Maybe you should try and contribute to the discussion, the one between me, big dipper, Dot, life observer and vampire taco. You seem to have an insight in this abnormal human behaviour, and I am curious as to what you get out of the relationship with your doll(s).

  • bb

    @D-K

    The latter started out as relevant but became increasingly tangential as everyone got to know each other better, and eventually degenerated into a general discussion of the commentors' sex lives.

    How is owning a RealDoll abnormal?

    There's two main things that creep people out about RealDolls. A) The fact that it's a sex toy, and B) the fact that it's humanoid. The notion of a realistic humanoid sex toy is abhorrent to people because of something called the wisdom of repugnance, or the 'yuck factor' which makes us instinctually recoil from something we consider disgusting; with or without substantial justification for our disgust. There's no real moral justification for how wacked out people get about RealDolls, just as there's no moral justification for racism, anti-Semitism, and homophobia, which also stem from the yuck factor. It's a fallacious appeal to emotion that has nothing to do with reason or logic.

    When I was 11, I asked my dad what a dildo was, and he said it was a 'Fake penis for lonely women.' Isn't the main reason that the mean in the documentary have dolls is loneliness? How is having a RealDoll any more abnormal sexually than owning a vibrator or a Fleshlight? If anything, RealDolls are less emotionally abnormal than dildos in that the owner of a RealDoll is forming an intimate relationship, albeit a synthetic one, with his doll rather than just humping a phallic piece of plastic. It's kind of like how children can form very close relationships with dolls as well, before they are influenced by their parents and peers and told that it's not normal.

    Look at the love and care that some of the owners put into their dolls. Davecat in particular (what a sweet guy) is very affectionate towards his doll. It's true that some of the other owners are less than careful with their dolls (the doll under the bed was a bit strange), but most of the men put a great deal of effort into looking after them, doing their hair and makeup, dressing them up, taking photos to give them a life of their own. There's love and dedication going into this. Who are we to say that's wrong or abhorrent?

    I feel quite passionately about this because I own two ball jointed dolls, and you would absolutely not believe the kind of comments I get on them on the rare occasions when I bring them out in public. People always want to pull down my male doll's pants and check if he has a penis, for some reason. It's just rude beyond belief. I can't imagine the kind of unfair stigma that is forced on owners of RealDolls.

  • Dot

    Hi bb,

    I thought you were going to compare owning dolls and having a relationship with them to religion, where people form a relationship with something that's not necessarily real. There's no yuck factor for me, apart from with the guy who had the dolls in all sorts of places to the point that he had to swab out his ejaculate with that thing, that was really disgusting, he is a careless man. I think we are creeped out by the idea of the doll because it's not alive. And people associate the dolls with necrophilia. I think an entire doll vs a penis or a fake vagina is not a very good comparison. People don't really talk to their dildos and take them out of the house because they are viewed as body parts, not entire human beings or things that could have a personality of a human (even though it is imagined).

    It is ok for you to do what you want, and what you feel is working out for you. People would say you are not well adjusted that you need these dolls to make your life have more meaning. I would not go as far as comparing what I feel about these dolls to racism or homophobia. I think most people are just curious as to what makes people such as yourself tick. No one's trying to kill you, or denying you a job because you have double jointed dolls in your possession. The dolls haven't been banned. But the part that you are misunderstood, that I can get, the same way homosexuals are misunderstood by many.

    We could talk again in 10 years just to find out if you shall still have your dolls, or if the relationship will have evolved into something deeper or less significant. By the way, don't expect human beings to be logical or reasonable, then we would just be robots. People pick and chose what they want to believe baseded on what's convinient to them. I'm not sure you really told us what you get out of it, I think what you did was mostly defend your position.

    Apart from what people do when talking to deities, I talk to my dead relatives. It helps me cope with their loss. People have pictures of their dead friends and relatives and it helps them cope. These are people that actually existed at some point, and are no longer there. We can extend their lives by imagining how they would react to what we say to them. But in your case, you are the creator. You breathe lives into these previously non existent 'people'. What do you get out of it? Is it the same way children have imaginary invisible friends only that you've taken it a step further and brought them to life? Again, I'm just trying to understand you.

  • D-K

    @bb

    You misunderstand my intent, I was not passing judgement. Simulating the mechanics involved in social interaction and projecting it onto a lifeless object is abnormal. It deviates from the norm, that's it, I wasn't using it in the "you're a freak" sense of the word.

    I will not dismiss their functionality, as it is clear that some people get a certain level of satisfaction from these dolls. The only part which I'm curious about is this;

    You simulate an emotional connection, and also simulate social interaction. Interaction is a 2way street by definition, what i'm wondering is do you speak for them, or do you formulate a response on their behalf based on their projected personalities.

    Is it like a pet, does it substitute a human, or does the relationship resemble that like between Tom hanks and his volleyball in "cast away"?

    This is also somewhat confusing, first you say:

    "It’s an exercise in creativity. They become like children to some people"

    But your second comment highlights purely the sexual aspect of these dolls. What is the actual main focus of these things?

  • Life Observer

    bb
    "When I was 11, I asked my dad what a dildo was, and he said it was a ‘Fake penis for lonely women.’ Isn’t the main reason that the mean in the documentary have dolls is loneliness? How is having a RealDoll any more abnormal sexually than owning a vibrator or a Fleshlight? If anything, RealDolls are less emotionally abnormal than dildos in that the owner of a RealDoll is forming an intimate relationship, albeit a synthetic one, with his doll rather than just humping a phallic piece of plastic. It’s kind of like how children can form very close relationships with dolls as well, before they are influenced by their parents and peers and told that it’s not normal."

    My 5 year no sex rule applies to what you say in the majority of this paragraph. Your fathers lonely woman answer for dildos is quite wrong I must say. Married women have them just as well. The dolls are for loneliness is a partial reality as to why they have the dolls. Like you said you have two ball jointed dolls. Why didn't they get one as well if it were loneliness only and go buy a Fleshlight as well. Think Why a Realdoll? the answer is obvious orgasms isn't the only thing these guys want. Question how do you simulate the real thing? Instead of paying their lives for the real thing it (STDs), Going into debt for the real thing (marriage to divorce ouch!!, buying sex on a constant bases), or constantly getting dumped (having to find another woman) and then getting dumped again they want a partner that will always be there by their side 24/7 365days. No matter what you can't make a relationship last if the other player wants to call it quits or isn't interested. Imagine playing tennis without another player. Well in the case of video games you have the CPU to fight against. In reality RealDolls (or in the possible future sex bots) is the most morally sound option. they can always choose Rape , child sex trafficking, or kidnap a woman and turn her into a sex slave I guess, but do people really want that!? The dolls simulates a real woman's body. The sex to them is close enough to the real thing. Blow drier & lubrication anyone??

    Some people don't like having sex with more than 40, 20, 10, or 5 people in their lifetime (Like me). Let's say you reached girl/guy number 40. you date them for a while. then he/she breaks up with you. what then? you keep going until you reach 100, then 200,. After doing this you still end up growing old alone with no one to share your life with what then? Keep going at 50 or 60!? This is the point. Realdoll owners want a companion that's is not going to run off, cheat on them, or divorce them due to boredom or "lack of interest". They don't give a F**k if the thing is inanimate. To them it's better than nothing or is all they need to be happy and at ease. Remember not everyone gets married, Not everyone has kids, Not everyone can have a happy marriage. So what do you do? I say get the Doll.....

    The men in China will surely all find a wife yessssss!!! Of Course!!! "They will all share one woman"

  • Dot

    @DK

    Maybe there is no main focus for these dolls. How many things have we tried to box into a rigid definition only to find out later on that we shouldn't have done so?

  • D-K

    Well the creator of the dolls probably had a purpose/goal in mind.. Why would he go to such trouble to make something without an actual goal.. (excuse me while I go punch myself for sounding like a creationist)

    they're not art, they are products with a use. I'm trying to figure out what that use is, I already know what they are used for.

  • Life Observer

    To bb,

    Thank you so much for the insight. Did you say you were 17? If so then man it really shows in you optimistic views on relationships and STD control. It reminds me of the way I felt about relationships back when I was a freshman in High School. I hope your relationship with you 19 year old boyfriend lasts forever.

    Now back on topic. Hyperbole take away my credibility. What's the point of such a statement. If you think my statements aren't meaningful or reliable info then please don't take me seriously. Hell everything I say just doesn't make sense right. Wrong!! You just said, "I’m not saying it’s right to sleep around, but maybe you should take your love life as it comes instead of formulating plans that will only make it harder for you to find that special someone?" Are you serious!? okay here's another one of your statements, "Thirdly, where on earth are you getting your dating statistics from? Who are these people who have sex with ‘40, 20, 10, or 5 people in their lifetime’? There is a false dilemma here; according to your definitions, people basically are either abstinent for most of their young lives, or sluts. Which isn’t true at all. That’s a sweeping generalisation, I know, but that’s basically what you’re implying." Your are so young my friend so young.

    The first statement you don't want me to sleep around but imply that I do so anyway!! The second statement you say I'm calling people sluts when I haven't even said so myself... Fine okay yet another person telling me to have sex with multiple people but says so in a manner that I guess "doesn't" say so. All I'm saying is people need to stop just having one night stands and thinking a relationship will last if sex is added to the equation just after 3 months or a year of knowing each other. I'm not looking for sex. I'm looking for a person to spend my life with. If this was about sex to me I would just get a prostitute like everyone else!!

    (bb) with time if your relationship with your current boyfriend doesn't last forever (College anyone, then Employment). Just remember what you said, "who has sex with more than 10, 20, 30 people in their lifetime. Where do these statistics come from" you can be the person to test my theory. find a lover without involving sex with even one of the possible husbands you find. The number of partners by the way are easily seen in college young lady. Seriously you don't know people who have had sex with multiple people really. Sweet Mercy!!!

    Last STD prevention I love this one the most. HIV first, if someone gets this let's say 1 week ago and then you have sex with them. you get tested next week and nothing shows. Then 3 months later you go get tested again and white blood cells show activity. Guess what? you have HIV! How did you get you partner went behind you back and cheated on you. Herpes next, Let's say you got tested 3 months ago. you partner does oral to another person, comes home and then gives you oral, Guess what? You got Herpes! Etc., Etc. you should get the point STD prevention Master (Bow) "Sensei!"

  • D-K

    ignore this comment.

  • D-K

    @bb

    "I do talk to them occasionally, but it’s much in the way that some people talk to their cats and dogs"

    That answers my question. Thanks.

  • D-K

    Std's, much like most other diseases, can't be entirely prevented. However, when you factor in all the other means of exposure to bacterial and/or viral diseases, sex is not the one to worry most about.

    Std's are largelly preventable with current anti-conception products, proper behaviour and attitude towards (safe) sex, and education on the pro's, cons and risks involved.

    std's are relatively low on the list of life-threatening or physically mutilating diseases, both in occurance as well as actual damage inflicted. People who're educated on the matter have (in comparison) a very slim chance of actually catching a disease, unless they (subconsciously) take risks.

    Fear of std's has to be the most retarded excuse to avoid having an intimate relationship I have ever heard. As with most, this fear probably stems from ignorance, something quite easily cured.

  • Dot

    @BB
    Didn't know what ball jointed was. Haven't been to the site you gave us yet but looked at them online. Double jointed and ball jointed sounded the same to me in my head when I was in a rush. So you create these, and you are an artist, that is very different from someone who has someone else custom make it for them. Ok, I now get you.

    @DK

    Fear of STDs might sound irrational to you but I panic like crazy, it's one of the reasons I remained a virgin until I was 26. And a whole serious of unfortunate circumstances led me to have to give up my virginity anyway so, that's a story for another day anyway. Why was I paranoid about sex? I have buried many female relatives who have been infected with HIV by their loving husbands.

    So for me even marriage is not a guarantee I won't get sick. I had a panic attack when a condom broke and I was screaming like a lunatic and washing out the semen from myself, my bf thought he needed to call 911. For me a cheating partner has little to do with my heart being broken, I intepret it in only one way, as an attempt on my life. If he will try to kill me slowly with a disease, I'll react and kill him instantly by knifing him.

    Guys who go out with me usually know this about me so they know not to mess around not beause I will be jelous but because I get crazy. It all sounds like looney behavior but when you nurse someone to their death until they are a skeleton while they are still alive and watch them panic while worms come out of them, STDs like HIV are very real and very scary.

  • D-K

    Yes, and E-koli poisening isn't a walk in the park either, but you shouldn't avoid eating alltogether.. One should research how one could prevent it as best as possible and act accordingly.

    It does not sound irrational to me, it IS irrational, face that fact, so that you may better your understanding of that which you fear.

    Getting scared and running away from the problem is not a responsible way of dealing with it, it is childish and irrational. Marriage is never a guarantee for anything, it is a man-made concept that opposes mental and physical limits to normal human behaviour.. marriage is irrational and most of the times, it is cause to unhappiness, I'm not a fan of it.

    You seem to be at a level of fear at which i'd advice to seek counselling or therapy of some sort. Simple discussion on a blog like this will do little to influence your view on the matter.

  • D-K

    opposes=imposes

  • Dot

    DK, I didn't say my fear is rational even though it's real. I know it's not normal. What can a therapist in the West help me with? The circumstances and the cultures are so different it'll be like talking to a goat. I don't feel like having any kids so I don't really need to fix this problem at the moment. The issue will resolve itself eventually, like everything else always does. If people needed therapy for all their irrational fears then I'd need therapy for needles being placed in my bed (I went back to sleeping on them - resolved), being attacked by a lynch mob (I'm very comfortable in crowds) and being around men (who can sometimes be very vicious if circumstances are right). I didn't need therapy for any of these issues. But it is the way of the West, everyone needs therapy to resolve problems before they manifest violently.

  • D-K

    Ah, but I figured the irrationality of your fear was impeding on your chances of finding a decent partner. If you feel like the issue isn't of any real importance, then by all means, let it resolve itself.

    My take on it is that irrational fear or phobia's often can't be resolved by the person him/herself, external input can bring with it new perspective. I'm not suggesting a psychiatrist or admittance into some kind of program, a simply lengthy talk with someone you know and trust can do wonders.

    I'm just saying that by rationalizing irrational fears, you are basically reaffirming your position by providing arguments thus, subconsciously, you're strengthening the base of your fear, making it harder to overcome in the future.

    And just out of curiosity, why the hell were/are you sleeping on needles?

  • Life Observer

    (Dot)Thank you for the insight into a growing problem with couples in a relationship. Trust!!

    May I ask you something (D-K). E-koli is a problem but seriously. To compare something that can or cannot be fatal to something that is just fatal. I get it. The probabilty of being poison as compared to being cheated on or recieving an STD is "similar" right. E-koli Doesn't linger in you families bloodline. E-koli doesn't make it hard for your child to find a life partner as kids living with Aids/HIV. E-koli doesn't ruin the chance of a newborn having a possible happy life.

    Eating is something that has to be done or you die. Not Having sex for your entire life will not affect you in any physical means. This is the difference, taking a risk for survival, or taking a risk for nothing!! "Ohhh! it feels good." isn't a good enough reason to endanger ones health. As a man I guess you must not like kids very much. Because having to tell a 10 year old who has HIV he isn't going to live long must not affect you. The sex is just too important. Put you D**k in a hole and worry about it later!! Overcoming the fear of putting your child through Hell must be something a psychiatrist does very welll!!

  • Life Observer

    To (D-K) continued:

    come on man get serious. Lust due to personal needs and "I want mentality" isn't the way to go. We have sex in order to have children (imagine a world with no condoms, birth control pills, etc.). When oil runs out I guess condoms will be everywhere, in the near future. Better yet if WW3 happens I guess condoms will be on every soldier throughout the world. This such world obviously would cause the down fall of mankind due to infidelity, selfish people, and "fearless" until death thinkers. Marriage to one person helps establish a healthy society. A man who goes around doing 500 chick and saying, "I want that new girl"(without birth control), getting all of them pregnant. 500 hundred kids man!!! You going to take care of them dude who says, "it is a man-made concept that opposes mental and physical limits to normal human behavior.. marriage is irrational and most of the times, it is cause to unhappiness, I’m not a fan of it." you must want kids without fathers running about. Having more kids without fathers. making the family structure of mankind F**ked up.

    I get why you hate marriage, the law anyway. I'm not talking about law. I'm talking about being there for one another until you die. While taking care of the children you have. Simple really. Yet Divorce rates are running through the charts. Why is that. Well people weren't meant to be "clean". STDs will be the downfall of mankind if not War. If anytime in the near future we have to resort to "old school" living methods, We are going to be wiped out. All because We "Humans" are incapable of self-control

  • Reb

    Why am I having flashbacks of Norman Bates in Psycho?! This is very sad and disturbing.

  • Wiggle

    cool doc

  • Wiggle

    @Life observer:

    "To compare something that can or cannot be fatal to something that is just fatal"

    We were discussing STD's, not just HIV. Not all STD's are fatal, some, chlamydia in particular, are quite easily curable, and others are treatable/managable. An STD is not a death sentence.

    "E-koli doesn’t make it hard for your child to find a life partner as kids living with Aids/HIV"

    Having kids when you have HIV is selfish and immoral. When someone who is diagnosed with a fairly horrible disease (one that will very likely be transmitted to the child) has kids, than that person makes a choice, plain and simple. It is that persons fault that his/her children will have HIV, assuming the person was aware of his illness.

    Sex is normal human behaviour, instinctive and hormonal. Of course one can choose not to have sex if one has no desire, or has other convictions that makes that person refrain from having sex.. just be realistic and don't expect yourself or your view to be popular.

    To be continued (when I get home, nightshift's over)

  • D-K

    @life observer

    I'm actually that Wiggle guy too, forgot to change my name back (damn computer at work)

    "Ohhh! it feels good. isn’t a good enough reason to endanger ones health. As a man I guess you must not like kids very much. Because having to tell a 10 year old who has HIV he isn’t going to live long must not affect you"

    Nearly EVERYTHING we do in our daily lives adversely affects our health. Job = stress, cars = co2, fast-food = bad stuff.
    Sex is one of the primary conditions and indicators of the health of a relationship between 2 (or more) partners. It is a fundemental mechanic that shapes us, defines us and guides us in a lot of ways.

    The second part of your statement is utterly without merit, why would I not like kids? Why would I suddenly have a 10yo child with HIV? You are acting like everyone who has sex, has it irresponsibly just because you've had some bad experiences. This behaviour is called projecting and it shows the inability to think beyond your own bad experiences.

    "We have sex in order to have children"

    This is an assumption, maybe you're religious but sex has many other benefits besides procreation.

    "When oil runs out I guess condoms will be everywhere, in the near future. Better yet if WW3 happens I guess condoms will be on every soldier throughout the world. This such world obviously would cause the down fall of mankind due to infidelity, selfish people, and “fearless” until death thinkers. Marriage to one person helps establish a healthy society. A man who goes around doing 500 chick and saying, “I want that new girl”(without birth control), getting all of them pregnant. 500 hundred kids man!!"

    This doesn't even make any sense. No sense at all.

    "I get why you hate marriage, the law anyway. I’m not talking about law. I’m talking about being there for one another until you die. While taking care of the children you have. Simple really"

    Being there for your children has nothing to do with marriage, that's about love and responsibility. Being there for one another also has nothing to do with marriage. Marriage is paperwork, and institiuation, and arbitrary ritualistic ceremony and it is outdated. Marriage has nothing to with love or emotional connection, marriage is about administrative commitment, nothing more.

    STD's haven't been the downfall of man for quite some time, I don't see it suddenly taking us down by the millions now.
    Maybe you should try having an actual discussion, instead of just putting my name at the front of a rant blaming society for your defect

  • D-K

    I was going for "institution" rather than "institiuation".. obviously

  • Dot

    @Life Observer

    The need to have sex is ingrained in our DNA, so it's more than just people wanting to have a good time. For a man not to want to sleep with 500 women, he has to make a concious decision, it doesn't come automatically. Before there was HIV, sleeping around was not a big deal.

    Did you know that most people who get divorced are happier after they are divorced? Like DK said, kids do not have to be raised in a marriage, it's what the parents what to do about their children that matters, not the fact that they may or may not be married. And by the way, one does not have to be raised by their biological parents. Parenting has little to do with who birthed you.

    @DK

    Women have a tendancy of employing methods such as needles in beds when they do not like someone. I wasn't the only one who found needles in her bed. And this was at home.

    @a 10 year old suddenly having HIV.

    Well, if parents die, the kids are left to fend for themselves. So people fear catching HIV because they know their children especially the girls will end up with the exact disease. The girls end up as prostitutes just to survive and what got their parents to an early grave catches up with them. HIV has a tendancy to wipe out people in way that prevents there being a social safety net (everyone who could have taken in the orphans might already be dead). So you end up with the very old and the very young remaining alive, then the very young get wiped out soon and pretty much there's no one left to burry the rest of them.

  • Dot

    @DK

    I had forgotten what you said about me reaffirming my irrational fears. I'm not in a position to be happy to have kids right now so it never comes up in conversations with potential mates. It'll be a problem if a guy wants to get kids but that seems to be very many years away for now.

    @Life Observer

    Soldiers rarely use condoms when they are raping people. And as much as I am messed up in the head, I can tell you that your fears and feelings about the direction the world is taking are on the paranoid side. Maybe it has to do with your youth and religious upbringing, with time you shall tone them down and come to a realistic approach. Tonnes of people have given you reasonable advise but you cannot see how they see it yet. Give yourself time.

  • Life Observer

    D-K

    Thank You, Seriously for this part: "STD’s haven’t been the downfall of man for quite some time, I don’t see it suddenly taking us down by the millions now.
    Maybe you should try having an actual discussion, instead of just putting my name at the front of a rant blaming society for your defect"

    The STD thing you mentioned it not destroying Mankind. You made me think about all the generations of people today. The fact that yeah not everyone is born with an STD. from the year 1000 A.D. - 1900 A.D if so then there would be problems to boot for the current generation.

    Wait but ask yourself something, AIDS/HIV was this thing around back then. Was the population on the planet this huge( 7 billion and growing). Was this virus around during the 12th century 13th, 14?? No it came about during the 1980's okay. Right now we are okay with the current way of life people are enjoying, medical science, urban life. If anything disrupts this somewhat peaceful balance (oil depletion {export, import } War of the continents, economic failure {chaos}) what is going to happen D-K. I guess condoms will still be in circulation during a time of crisis. These treatable STDs will still be treated. Research untreated STDs and then tell me what will happen to the Human race again "Mr. we'll be just fine, things aren't different from the past, it's the same as ever" A.K.A "STD’s haven’t been the downfall of man for quite some time" .

    Sorry about the ranting but it really makes me mad when people don't value their lives too much. Which is what I got from your " be fearless" of STDs statement but hey I'm wrong. Just like my statement about your liking children or concern for you future children and grandchildren. Sorry :)

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    Woah, Life Observer.

    Hold your horses young man. Really. Go settle down, and get your thoughts in order.
    Of all the things you have said

    "As a man I guess you must not like kids very much", was profound in what it said about you, and as your sentences go, that was up against some pretty stiff competition.

    Please, think about what being a father is, much more than what having children means. When you are a father, which you are not, then you will realize what I have just said. And you do not. You are not qualified to discuss this subject. You should not hold such strong views on subjects that you have no knowledge or experience to draw from.

    As a boy, then maybe I guess you must not like kids very much, as a reply to your vitriol towards DOT. You have such a controlling attitude towards sex that it is impossible to think you would not have a controlling and domineering approach to any children that may be unfortunate enough to be born into your household. They would not be free to grow up with your guidance. They would only be free to do as you tell them. It is hard to think that your controlling attitude towards sexual behavior would not be replicated in all the other areas of your life.

    "Not Having sex for your entire life will not affect you in any physical means.". This phrase is just wrong. It will effect you physically, and emotionally. It just will. Your opinion versus the medical world's scientific data is not going to mean anything. Ejaculating is a vital function, and our emotional well being is intrinsically liked to our physical well being.

    You are so hung up on sex my friend, so hung up. You talk about it with anger, angst, hatred and disgust. You think it is everyone else who has issues, but it is you. And you are terrified of it. It consumes you. As you don't want to admit that, you then turn it around and make out that it is everyone else who is hung up on sex, as a way of deflecting it from yourself, and hiding from it. But it is you who is hung up on sex. It is you.

    Listen LO. You have no children. You are a virgin. You have never had sex. So please, stop preaching on how to go about living life to the full, when your life is not full of anything.

    You think people have sex to have children. That is just nonsense. Children are a consequence of sex, but people have sex for hundreds of reasons, most of all is because they enjoy it, in many different ways. To say that isn't the case is a lie. You may as well say that we only eat food so we do not starve to death. Starving to death is a consequence of not eating, but it is not the reason we choose to eat everyday. Otherwise, why choose one food type over another, or why do fat people exist? They can do without that next meal, but they choose to eat it anyway.

    Essentially, you think sex is a "bad" thing. This is because your religious upbringing planted it in your mind. All of your talk is of STDs. To most people, sex is a wonderful gift from the seed of life, and not a disease. To you it is a terrible disease.

    You said "I’m talking about being there for one another until you die." Well, as it stands, you are not there for anyone. That is because nobody wants to do that with you, and who can blame them when you have such a selfish and opinionated attitude towards women and sex. Relationships and sex are extremely complicated. You can't just put a "one size fits all" mentality on it. It is not about issues that are right or wrong, or black and white. It is complicated and takes experience to work out. But for a man who has no girlfriend, and has never had sex, ever, you do seem to think you have it all worked out. You do not, my friend, you very evidently do not.

    Saying you will be there for your wife is a delusional lie. You are there for yourself. I have heard nothing from you about the emotional and passionate desires of your potential wife. Nothing. Nothing of physical love, intimacy, tenderness, sharing or passion. When you do meet someone and get married, you will have to take care of those needs. You do realize that don't you? You do understand that this is what being a loving husband means? She will have needs, and taking care of those needs is very much part of "being there for each other". But you are only there for yourself, which is why you are by yourself. Your idea of being there for her is to deny her that sexual part of her life. I mean, you want her to wait 5 years. That has nothing to do with her desires, but everything to do with your warped and rather psychotic sexual control. That is not being there for each other until the day you die. It just isn't. This isn't about her, or being there for each other. It's about you. It is all about you.

    Someone has to say this to you. I am sorry it is me, but it is wake up time. Your are sexually delusional. You need to change your approach and get some help before you become a sexual predator on your community. Denying yourself sex does not make you righteous. Go look at the Catholic Church. People who deny themselves sex get warped later on and become sexual predators. They just do. Deny yourself water for 7 days, and go see how much differently you behave around a glass of water compared to everyone else. You have already said that you think you are incapable of self control.

    You have enforced a prohibition on yourself on sexual activity. Well, as we all clearly know, prohibition is not control. It is not. You are not in control of your sexual desires. They are in control of you. And that is because you have decided to deny yourself that faculty. If you were content with that, you would not be so angry at everyone else for having sex, but you clearly are angry and frustrated. It is written down in your posts. You try to give the impression of being in control of your sexual desires, but you are very clearly not. They are in control of you. Denying yourself sex will lead to deviant behavior later on.

    You think you are being a model of selfless purity, but this is nonsense. What you have are sexual issues of control and anger that you need to address. And soon.

    Finally, you wrote this classic "If this was about sex to me I would just get a prostitute like everyone else!!"

    Well I have had a lot of sex, and I have never used a prostitute. This says so much about you, LO, so much. You see women as objects to be used for men's gratification. Sex is a very selfish thing for you. You are a very selfish character who sees women as objects. You need to get help before you snap and take it out on your community by being a predator. You also need to stop thinking that your view is the world view. You do not speak for others. Everyone else doesn't use prostitutes. Some may, but they will speak for themselves, not everybody. You are the one who would use prostitutes, not us. You are on your way to becoming a sexual predator, and you need to address it. Pronto.

    And by the way, please read your posts before posting them. I don't normally come down on others punctuation and grammar, but your posts are just really hard to read as they are not put together properly, and it is just difficult to make sense of it. Thanks.

  • D-K

    Howdy Big Dipper:

    you said: "As you don’t want to admit that, you then turn it around and make out that it is everyone else who is hung up on sex, as a way of deflecting it from yourself, and hiding from it. But it is you who is hung up on sex. It is you"

    "Someone has to say this to you. I am sorry it is me, but it is wake up time"

    No fair, I totally beat you to it;

    "Your lack of physical needs isn’t something you can force on other people, it is your personal “defect”. (up there in the previous discussion)

    It seems we say the same thing, although you elaborate more. Quite strange considering the sources, we are quite evidently of different age and mentality, yet share the same very personal philosophies.. Ah.. the common intricicies of the human psyche.. one of life's more surprising paradoxes..

    Also, i'd like to chip in on the proper grammar argument, it is annoying to discuss with a person when they exhibit grammar and though-process of an inbred hick, it reflects poorly on those offering counterpoints as well, please stick to proper conversational etiquette, LO.

  • D-K

    @Dot:

    you said: "I had forgotten what you said about me reaffirming my irrational fears. I’m not in a position to be happy to have kids right now so it never comes up in conversations with potential mates. It’ll be a problem if a guy wants to get kids but that seems to be very many years away for now"

    I understand, but you forgot this part of the equation:

    "subconsciously, you’re strengthening the base of your fear, making it harder to overcome in the future"

    This will inevitably lead to arguments with your partner, and seeing as we've established the fear as irrational, someone's logical arguments won't have any effect, and someone's emotional arguments will come across as irrelevant and selfish. This fear WILL lead to trouble, if unattended.

  • D-K

    "Wait but ask yourself something, AIDS/HIV was this thing around back then. Was the population on the planet this huge( 7 billion and growing). Was this virus around during the 12th century 13th, 14?? No it came about during the 1980’s okay"

    Every period in time has it's own diseases. Allow me to provide an example in the 14th century; The plague.

    "The bubonic plague kills about two out of three of infected patients in 2–6 days without treatment and may have been the cause of the Black Death that swept through Europe in the 14th century killing more than 25 million people, a third of the European population"

    Cause: concentraded populace with poor hygienic code, leading to rodent infestations, which where the main "hosts" or "carriers" of the plague (not including pnuemonic plague obviously) Did people stop living in clusters? No. They simply adapted hygienic codes and behavioural patterns to reduce probability of the plague spreading. They did not run from it, they dealt with it and as such, the majority survived.

    You are not dealing with anything, you are running away from the problem, and as BD mentioned, this choice will have severe psychological/emotional repercussions. Judging by BD's psyche trajectory, it might actually be better if you don't procreate, so in fact, feel free to disregard all our input/feedback.

    Lastly you said:

    "Right now we are okay with the current way of life people are enjoying, medical science, urban life. If anything disrupts this somewhat peaceful balance (oil depletion {export, import } War of the continents, economic failure {chaos}) what is going to happen D-K. I guess condoms will still be in circulation during a time of crisis. These treatable STDs will still be treated. Research untreated STDs and then tell me what will happen to the Human race again"

    Do you think having sex before your 5 year abstinence vow would allow you would sink our world in chaos? What does the eventual disturbed balance of the world have to do with your sexuality? This all reaffirms my first assessment of your character, allow me to quote myself:

    "The fact that you list many reasons lead me to believe that they are rationalizations, for if you truly believe what you say, you’d need but one reason"

    You either haven't told us the real reason for your abstinence, or you are just mentally incapable of overcoming you pre-disposed notions that are a result of faulty/religious upbringing.

  • Dot

    @DK

    I will try to get the situation fixed, in the meantime I have to get other situations fixed to, and at the moment I keep pushing this one to the bottom of the pile. Plus I recently memorized the name of a new boyfriend and googled him and guess what, his name and picture came up on the sex offender registry! You can imagine I almost passed out and it was 5am. Needless to say I was breaking up with him at 10am over the phone and let's just say things went downhill after that.

  • Dot

    PS:
    I have this habit of going through people's bags and pockets just to find things they would not tell me themselves. I didn't even have to do it this time. He gave me a paper he was using to apply for a job and that is where I got his full name from. I was googling him hoping to find some goofy pictures online, or some comment he may have posted somewhere with his real name. Finding him on this registry was the last thing I ever thought would come up.

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    D-K

    I would like to add something for the benefit of who you responded to.

    You are very correct in that there are new diseasesin every generation. I can add to that by saying that these "new diseases" are, on the whole constantly evolving existing diseases. As they are simple single celled organisms, their rate of evolution is faster than complex organisms, like mammals. Indeed, the evolving nature of bacteria creates drug resistance to our antibiotics. Just to explain that they do just turn up. They evolve. Sometimes from a harmful organism to harmless organism, sometimes the other way around.

    The Plague is still in our society today, but it is much less virulent than it was in the past, in the dark ages. This is because it has evolved. Bacteria are not too successful if they keep killing their carrier host very quickly. It has evolved to be still dangerous, but less virulent.

    LIFE OBSERVER - diseases may well bring down mankind, but sexual transmission is one of the least likely ways a single celled organism is transmitted between two humans. Air born transmission, human touch, food, water, hygene and external objects all play as much of a successful role in disease transmission than sexual transference. Indeed, swine flu killed more people in 1919 around the world than the whole of those killed in the fields of Europe during the WW1, which helped to transmit the bacteria. It killed 50 million. And that was with a world population of just 1 billion.

    "Research untreated STDs and then tell me what will happen to the Human race again”

    Why don't you tell us? Why ask us to research it? You obviously have - don't you think the word "research" is a overplaying your hand here a little. The reason is, yet again, you've made it up in your head, and taken it as a fact. "If I think it is right, then it must be right". Really, show us any data which shows us why sexually transmitted diseases are more dangerous to the survival of our society than any other form of disease transmission.

    Finally, as I mentioned before, prohibition is not control. History shows us that when we ban something, people will do it anyway, and at a greater degree than they would under normal circumstances. Therefore, to ban your partner from having sex for 5 years, is almost certainly going to make her leave you early on. If by some miracle of God she does not, then you have increased the chances that she will play around to get her passion from other quarters; behind your back. This means you have increased your likely hood of getting diseases by forcing her to sleep around, and passing it onto you when the time comes rather than controlling it, and agreeing to have a sex life like normal well adjusted people do. Indeed, if she is only there for the making of babies, even after 5 years, I am sure she will still go looking elsewhere. It can't be very fulfilling for any woman to have a partner so devoid of any passion that he thinks sex is just for making babies. That has to be a very vacuous alliance.

    If you want to control STD's in your life, my guess is that prohibition is not the answer. Prohibition is not the control of anything.

    We're not against you. We're trying to help you.

  • Life Observer

    @Big Dipper, Dot, & D-K

    Practically it was just said I'm a control freak due to my 5 year no sex plan (Big Dipper). I don't need to procreate (Dot), and well D-K I need to develop a don't give a damn mentality towards STDs.

    This is not the first time someone on a post told me I'm a control freak. Why is it that this one little rule makes me a control freak. Why is it that? I'm going to become a sexual deviant if I maintain my current state of being. Really me?? Of all the people you could say that too.

    I guess know I have no free will to control myself. I mean if food were to ever run out instead of facing death of finding some leaves or something to eat I would go to cannibalism. My children I would command them and order them around like toy soldiers. My future wife wouldn't be able to leave the house without my telling her too. If someone hit me I would just hit them back no matter what . I'm am supreme master over others. Dot , D-K, BD do my bidding HA HA HA HA!!!

    Come on Guys dang really just from a few post you identify me as some Sex hating, future psychopath. I don't hate sex and people who do so. I hate betrayal, and dishonesty. A factor that comes from friendship, and marriage. Fine then, my thinking ahead approach is obviously wrong.

    I'll give some questions then please give me answer.

    1.) when is it appropriate to start having sex in a relationship?
    2.)What do I do if I catch her cheating on me?
    3.)If we get divorced and have kids 5 years and younger what should I do about visiting rights?
    4.)If I only last 30 seconds in the bedroom and it doesn't change what should I do? (Dot's boyfriend)
    5.)If after 4 years of being together I get HIV what advice do you guys have?
    6.)Do you truly believe if I don't have sex immediately I will become sexually "weird"
    7.)The religious aspect of fornication How should I avoid disobeying

  • vampire taco

    you guys are horny people a relationship requires not just sex or physical suppport but also emotion suppport meaning you have to know that person inside and out knowing what they are capable of and what their feeling are and not only how their hole feel so good to you or in the women case how his stick feel so good

  • vampire taco

    another thing life observer seems very religious also seem to care about people so I don't think he would become a sex offender while some of you people seem to only care about yourselves or your own sexual pleasure

  • Life Observer

    @ Big Dipper, D-K

    Right now from both of you I'm being told this. I should meet a girl. after I guess one or 4 months have sex with her. Use a condom of course during sex. If after 1-2 years of being together we breakup I'm suppose to do it all over again. Meet another girl, eventually have sex and then breakup and find another one. Famous quote: "there is plenty of fish in the sea"

    My prostitute reference could have gone like this ("If I wanted to just have sex I could just dated a girl and have sex with her only to end up having her break up with me") See same point but it doesn't change anything. Am I married? Have I found my life partner? Will I be able to watch and protect my kids (referring to an unplanned child due to sexual mistake condom, birth control, etc.)? If she gets pregnant what if she wants to get it aborted. What should I do then? Now you see relationships encounter problems if you don't plan ahead. My five year thing, (just so you Know) could have been only 2-3 years. The reason I placed the 5 years there is because the false reality people have toward sex and the unwanted/mistake child. Not one of my relationships lasted more than a year remember. A year is no where long enough to form a solid relationship by adding sex.

    With the way things are going with this "protected sex" for a couple of months into the relationship crap, is that Single parents are at extremes today (especially for women). I'm just wondering why I haven't met someone yet who finds this a problem. The good women are being taken out of the equation due to such a simple problem. I find that a good enough reason to keep trying what I'm doing. If what other people were doing was so right (rushing sex or a relationship) we wouldn't be having the problems of destroyed family structures. I find it highly funny that my plan is so unpopular yet the playboy/gold digger dating style isn't even mocked to any point. Why are playboys not deviant sex offenders. Yeah, they go from woman to woman, and that's alright? Yet me a virgin who doesn't do anything to bother people in any form is at risk of becoming a future sex offender/rapist.

  • Life Observer

    To Dot,

    Dot when my comment is finished being moderated from

    "05/26/2010 at 22:33 Your comment is awaiting moderation".

    please disregard your name. Except at the end of the post.

    the number 4 question. Thanks!!

    {Fill the name (Dot) in with (D-K)}

  • Dot

    ok :)

  • Dot

    @ Life Observer

    Here are answers to your questions:

    1. There is no appropriate time to start sex in a relationship. It depends on circumstances, the two people, the cultural environment, so many things. And it should be consensual by both partners, not one person pressuring the other, or the others (if it is more than 2 people). Yes be open minded young man, tehehe.

    2. What do other people do when they catch their partners cheating on them? What is the best course of action? Do you break up? Do you beat them up? Do you forgive them and move on with them? Only you and your partner/partners can answer this question at that time. I think you are so used to getting answers from your Holy Book that you forget that it does not have all the answers.

    3. If the two of you are reasonable human beings, you work it out so you raise the children together even if you both move on to other relationships and marriages. You must grow up and not imagine that kids can only be raised by people who are married to each other.

    4. If you last only 30 seconds in bed and it does not change, that just makes you a lazy bastard. There is more to sex than penis insertion. Even disabled people have sex so this is should not be a big problem. You should be able to do other things that do not involve your own penis, and there are sex toys too. Keep your mind open young man. If a guy in a wheelchair can get a woman and keep her, why shouldn't you who is walking around on two legs do the same?

    5. You suck it up, stuff like this happens. You live in a country where you can get ARV so go ahead and get those. HIV is not a death sentence not unless you are in the 3rd world. Many people live with different kinds of afflictions, HIV will be yours. Face your fear and live your life without hiding under fear itself.

    6. Nobody said you should have sex immediately after meeting a woman. It's not advisable not unless you are just doing the one night stand thing (which I find wierd) but your inability to want to have sex is based on your numerous fears. Once you get over that, it'll be easier to have sex when the time is right.

    7. Throw your religious books out, they are making you miserable. Seriously. Fornication is not the root of all evil. Your religious books are trying to control you in every aspect of your life. Just because I have sex outside of marriage does not make me a bad person. This might sound funny to some, but I have never cheated on anyone I have been with, even the 30 second man. It's not because some religious book tells me not to, I just don't see the point in cheating. Sleeping around aimlessly with everyone is definitely not a good idea for anyone, so try to get partners who do not want to mess around too much (like you), get ready to be hurt (including getting HIV, being run over by an angry partner, or even being killed, these things happen you know).

    Just live your life, stop being paranoid. Otherwise you will die and if you get the chance to look back at your life, you will wonder why you were so scared. Death is a sure thing but do not let the noose hang over your head all the time. At the moment I can't even say you are living your life, you are in limbo. And I insist you read other views on how to live life and do not imagine your religious book is the only authority. Open your mind young man, open it.

  • Life Observer

    @Dot

    Thank you very much for the insight. :)

    Will try some of you tips. Thanks again!!!

  • Dot

    @LO

    You are welcome :)

    Don't throw your religious books out completely. They have useful guidelines but you cannot follow everything in them, tha's what I meant to say. And there's one reply that is still in moderation,I have no idea if it'll show. But good luck in everything, and re-read what other people said before, right from the start. You will find many answers in what they had to say.

  • angi

    i strongly believe our generation needs to stop giving people alternatives for their problems. it needs to continue to teach people how to solve them. the more you create alternatives for these people's social issues, the more it causes people to turn away from talking to people or interacting with people and overcoming their issues....they can just have a doll. Dolls were made for children for a reason. Eventually you have to take it away and let people figure out how to handle the real thing. This is so sad.

  • Binky

    @life observer:
    I am a Christian, who abstained from sex until marriage. I understand that where you are coming from. I was a virgin until I married my husband. We dated for 2 years, and it was very difficult to not have sex with one another. Once we got married, we were at it like bunnies! That was fun for a while, but lead to other issues. Anyhow, I wish you well in finding a woman that will agree to the 5 year thing.

  • Binky

    Oh, and the doll thing is totally creepy. Not so much the sexual aspect, I get that. the desire for sex is physical and very real. The creepy thing is the emotional attachment to it. I used to play with dolls (barbie or whatever) and I made up scenarios with them, but it was always just a toy. I never thought they had personalities and such. It is odd that these men think these dolls "love" them.

  • Evil Twin

    hop onto any social network, build a bunch of contacts, the more foreign you have the better, start inviting people over to your place for the weekend/ holidays / etc free of charge. You have no idea how many people out there travel allover the world this way. And the chances of getting laid grow exponentially. You don't even need to push for it, some guests are inherently promiscuous :D No strings attached. Friends for interest.

    Think about it: it's easier to have the real thing than a piece of rubber and some of those people may even come back, may even become friends for a lifetime.

    Think about it, people :D

  • D-K

    Indeed Binky, we should find these weirdos and beat them with a sack of doorknobs.. How dare they be different! The sheer audacity of it! Not wanting to be alone, and resorting to alternate means of "love" is UNHOLY! They should be alone and depressed and miserable, or they should learn to be exactly like the rest of us!

    It's like they really BELIEVE in what they're doing.

    These delusional fools..

    You did a good thing restraining yourself from doing things you want to do.. I mean, you don't have the authority to live your life, the big man up in heaven controls us, right!?

    pffft.. like it's natural for people to give in to their needs.. food, clothing.. medicine.. sex.. We need none of these things, only in death will we find peace!

    YAY GOD!

    You said: "Once we got married, we were at it like bunnies! That was fun for a while, but lead to other issues.

    WOAH! that's almost like, not eating for 2 weeks and then gorging for hours on end.. who could possibly have anticipated that it would lead to trouble!?

    Great Scott, sex must be pure evil!

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    Hi Binky

    Thanks for your post. And thanks for your honesty. No-one knows who anyone is here, which is great, so I hope you don't mind if I ask a few personal questions.

    1. Was your husband a virgin when he met you? If not, how did you feel about that?
    2. Did you and your husband live together before marriage?
    3. Was STD's any part of your reason for remaining a virgin until marriage?
    4. You mentioned that it lead to "other issues". Would you be kind enough to expand on that a bit?
    5. On reflection, do you think that remaining a virgin is as important an issue as you felt at the time?
    6. How difficult was abstinence? What did that involve?
    7. What were the main benefits you got from abstinence?
    8. As someone who has been there, seen that, done it, do you have any constructive advice for Life Observer and his 5 year plan?

    You really don't need to feel pressured into answering any of it. I understand these are very private issues. But seeing how the thread is going, then you are the only person on this thread that seems to have any first hand knowledge of "no sex before marriage", and who also does not seem to be a "fundamentalist/irrational" christian, and who also has had time to reflect on what went on. I wouldn't ask otherwise. I think your input on this would be very welcome and extremely valuable.

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    Life Observer

    Hi. In response to your last mail.

    I am not telling you how to go about doing anything at all. What I am telling you is how "not" to go about it. The first is to not put a five year hiatus on it when you meet someone. The second is to stop moralizing about it to everyone. We're all different, at different times in our life. Put the moral opinions down.

    My point about being a sexual deviant was, I guess, harsh, but I did want to point out that your plan will only lead to problems later on. It will. I am sure you can go out, find someone, enjoy each other physically, and make your way though it in a sensible manner without having 10 STD's and 15 unwanted kids by next Saturday. I'll let you off the "prostitute" comment, since now you have qualified it.

    Your comments, on the whole, refer to others, with single families, etc etc etc. Don't worry about them. Worry about yourself. You do not have to take responsibility for them, you just have to take responsibility for yourself. Some people are just irresponsible. You don't have to be one of them. And not all people who have an unplanned child are irresponsible. Far from it. You can use a condom, or she can go on the pill. Contraception is in a variety of forms. You think of all these problems that can come along. But we are humans, and we just deal with these things as life comes at us. Like driving a car, there are so many more worse things that can happen than can do with the consequences of sex, but we still drive. We deal with it in our lives, try to avoid the problems, and take responsibility for our own road safety. We do not deny ourselves the power to drive.

    So stop using society as a reason for your own personal demons. Ignore society on this issue. You are just one man, and have responsibility only for yourself.

    Personally, I have had plenty of partners. I have never had an STD, I have shared love, I have never had an unplanned child, and never had any hang ups. I am married now, and have never cheated on my wife. I have never wanted to cheat on my wife. There is no reason whatsoever for you to consider yourself better than me, morally, at all, in the frame of reference over sex. There just is not. And even if I got married, and then got divorced, there would still be no reason to moralize. Sometimes in life, things don't work out, and that goes for good people as well as bad. Let it go. But you need to let go of taking responsibility for societies problems. This is not to say we shouldn't care about society, at all, but to assume responsibility for them is misplaced.

    Dot's advice was excellent. It really was. I think what she was saying, is go out out there, and trust that you are a good guy, a nice person. You are. Have faith in that. With that in mind, if it feels ok to you, then go and do it. You do not need to answer to any bible on this issue, just yourself. You will know if you do not want to, and you will know if you do. Trust in yourself to make the good decisions, and no-one else. I am interested in what Blinky has to say, as I think she can give you better advice more than most.

    Vampire Taco -

    Being religious gives no one person any moral high ground, neither does believing in a God make anyone less immune to the in-built psychological mechanisms and responses we are all immune to as human animals. I think by waiting five years, then this will lead to problems, period. Mainly as he will not find a woman who will wait that long, so five years can be fifty. And if he then breaks that five year rule, then it will only lead to disappointment in himself, and so he should let that go. To want to do that, not only means that there are "hang ups" about sex, but to combine that with denial of the act can only lead to problems. A belief in God does nothing to eradicate that. Go talk to the Catholic Church. They will tell you. Although I do point out that my comment was harsh. But the fact remains this. Denial of sex to oneself for religious reasons is no longer the moral pillar it was once seen as. It is now known to lead to emotional and psychological problems later on, and if one is of a disposition to possibly cause harm to others, out of desperation, then it can be seen as dangerous. But to direct it so obviously at LO was harsh.

  • D-K

    @BD:

    Harsh does not make it any less true. My comment above your previous 2 was dripping with snark and sarcasm, but it proves a point. The method of delivery is irrelevant. The messenger is irrelevent. The medium is irrelevent. Only the message is relevant.

    BD, we both have sat down and explained the parts of the equation LO was (subconsciously) omitting, we've been patient, rational and helpful. In return we have gotten rationalizations and false, unsubstantiated claims. You have the patience and humility of a saint to seek faults in your own message, when it is rooted in experience and logic.

    It must take much effort to stay as corteous and constructive as you do, in the face of biased ignorance, kudos.

  • http://underworldadventures.com Big Dipper

    I would like to comment on the 30 seconds thing that Life Observer and Dot mentioned.

    I am sure LO will last just 30 seconds. I am positive. Why? Because he is probably a normal man like us all. Most men, (all), who have not had sex for sometime, tend to blow a gasket pretty quickly. It is just like that when things build up. It is what happens, especially when the excitement is new and fresh, and, well, just overwhelming. So forgive yourself. If you do, she will do so too. Then the next time (which should be pretty soon after - traditionally the duration of a cigarette :)), it lasts a bit longer, and then so on and so on. Like everything else in life, we are only as good as the time we put into it. If you lose it in 30 seconds, then this means you need to do it more often, which I am sure you will when you eventually get down it.

    I do not see you as someone who will do the one night stand thing. I have no moral position on that at all, but I do not think this will be you. Therefore, you have a good chance of meeting someone who will be patient and give you the time. Indeed, you will be patient, and give her the time too. Men tend to think that they have let the female down, whereas women tend to think that they have let the man down. Without talking, this is how we perceive it.

    Sex takes time to get together. It is like dancing. Two people don't just meet and do the tango like it is done in a competition. They tread on each others toes, go left when it should be right, and they are just not in time with the music. They have to practice with each other. Even people who do the tango a lot, have to relearn when they have a new dance partner. They just do. Nobody is good at anything straight out of the box, no matter how amazing the thing they are doing makes them feel. Feeling amazing doesn't make you good at it.

    At this point I urge you to look up the "Dunning Kruger Syndrome", and see how much better it will make you feel. Don't listen to what others say about their performance. It is generally not true.

    Pornography - I find it hard to believe that, with the internet, that most people have not been curious enough to look at pornography at least once in their lives. I mention this, as this is pornography, and not real life sex. Sex in real life is nothing like this. AT ALL. The guys are generally on cocaine ( which means they can go on for hours), and indeed, they are not having sex for themselves, but they are doing it for the camera. I mention this, as you should not be intimidated by this nonsense, as it is not real, and has nothing to do with real life. So do not compare yourself to anything you see there, as it is just a made up fantasy for the cameras.

    I am not moralizing on pornography either. That should surely be on another thread. But when I was working in psychotherapy, I would read journals that would describe many situations about how young boys would learn about sex. As it was too difficult a situation for schools or parents to discuss, then pornography is generally the first encounter boys and girls have with the subject. This applies to about 95%+ of males. In my day (phew, now I am going back a bit), we had top shelf magazines, and no internet. I remember the nervousness of going in to buy a copy. In later years, I learnt that my friends allt did the same thing, or they found their father's magazines. Not a comfortable discussion, I know, but it is what it is. Anyhow, in these magazines, there were no males, just women showing us all in various poses. Today I realize that we have easy access ready to download hard core films, and not just top shelf soft core pictures, and that graphic sex scenes are accessible to everyone and anyone who wants to look it up. This has changed things a bit from my day, and can give the false impression that this is normal sex. Indeed, that is what they try to convey to us. That it is normal. It isn't.

    It is much more exploratory than this, much more tender, more forgiving, more intimate and more loving than any of the nonsense which is out there in abundance. The stuff on the internet is just masturbation material to fuel the fantasy lives that people lead, and not the real lives they exist in.

    I am not accusing anyone of anything with this post, but felt it was a healthy thing to point out, given the fact that 80% of website hits (something like that), are pornography related. It is nothing to be intimidated at. It is just a fantasy.

  • Dot

    @Big Dipper

    Thanks for introducing pornography to the topic. I have always been disturbed by the way the men I have been with have wanted me to re-enact what they have seen in porn. They want to hold my head while I felate them and try to choke me. I do not like this, many of my girlfriends do not like this. And I guess most of the porn I have watched is meant for a straight male audience, so everything is very mechanical. Maybe from a man's perspective it is not, but for a woman watching, it's very strange and detatched.

    Maybe women who grow up watching this kind of stuff are used to it, but over time and if you are with someone you actually care about, I am guessing a woman would like to have an emotional connection during sex. There's nothing wrong with wild sex, and you won't always get the emotional connection each time, but when you do, it's always a good thing.

    I know there is woman friendly porn out there, but to me porn is just porn. Like Big Dipper said, you pay for something that's far from usual, otherwise it doesn't sell. That's why they have to keep doing things that are completely out there to keep people entertained. Some other things that disturb me is when objects, human or otherwise are dipped into different orifices and put back in others. Let's just I am usually trying to reach for Monistat and anti-biotics when I see some things.

    Whoever is watching porn should really try to educate themselves before they think anything goes. Those long nails being stuck everywhere ... truth be told, porn is usually more a cautionary tale for me rather than entertainment. I cringe a lot while watching it. Plus the women moan so much even past the point of pleasure (I can tell because I am a woman and know when it gets boring) but sometimes the men I am with ask me to keep fake moaning ... LO, let's hope your sexual experiences will be closer to reality than further from it.

  • Mira

    Love exists women, you just wont find it with a dirty pig man. :)

  • D-K

    @Mira

    I totally agree! Woman should at least be looking for a hawk-man.. for transportation convience..

    Or just a clean horse-man, so you'll have something to ... ride.

    ;)

  • Binky

    @D-K: I never said or implied that their attachment to their dolls was UNHOLY, merely odd. If your implication was that my belief in God is the same as their belief that their toys feel emotion, well, that is an argument that I will choose to disengage in. I do not think sex is evil, on the contrary I think it was created by God for our enjoyment. When we deviate from his instructions on how and when to engage in sex is when we get into trouble. Much like when you put lemonade in your gas tank. The lemonade is not a bad thing, but does not cause optimal performance for your vehicle.

    @ Big Dipper
    I have no problem answering your questions.
    1. No my husband was not a virgin. I believe that was the main source of our problems early on. I felt like he was comparing me to the other women he was with.
    2. We did not live together before marriage. I don't think abstinence would not have been possible for us in that scenario.
    3. STD's were not really a deciding factor in my wanting to be abstinent before marriage, although I am glad that I never had one :)
    4. The "other issues" we had early on were mainly focused around his having had other partners - I felt very insecure about it. Also, sex became the main focus of our relationship, which was both tiring and unfulfilling. We have since worked out a balance in our lives.
    5. Retrospectively, I do think being a virgin was a great idea, and one I will definitely suggest to my daughters. I work with alot of teens and young adults and many of the problems they have both physical and emotional would be solved if they stepped back and stopped having sex.
    6. Abstinence is difficult. Anyone who says it is easy is not attracted to the person they are being abstinent with. In order to create and maintain a romantic relationship, you have to spend time together in intimate conversation (although not necessarily sexual). Desire happens, and is intense. We made it a point to not be anywhere together where sex could "just happen" - like alone in my bedroom.
    8. My advise would be to focus on the person first. Get to know her and it will be obvious if she is someone whose beliefs line up with yours or not. The main focus of your conversation cannot be about sex, or not having sex. Stay in public, even if it means talking to one another in the food court at the mall. Together you can decide how long you will abstain. Five years does not make you more pure than 4, 3 or 2 years. Definitely pray about it before you date someone, and use your God given common sense.

  • Life Observer

    @Binky, D-k, Big Dipper.

    Thank you all for the great advice and taking the time out to talk to a Virgin in need of advice. :)

    @Binky

    One thing though. That being in the room together thing has never been hard for me to do. I have never felt this overwhelming desire to just take my clothes off and just go at it. Since you are a lady might I ask if you didn't want to be alone with your current husband during your dating phase because he would have tried to initiate sex and you didn't feel like you could stop him?

    For me if initiated by my GF I can just say no and that's that. Their maybe some complaints but hey ^.^!! Last did you skip Big Dipper's number 7 question on purpose or by accident?

  • Dot

    I think if Binky wasn't a virgin when she got married she would not be feeling insecure that her husband had been with other people. It's just something that can't be avoided given her circumstances.

  • Binky

    You are quite welcome!

    I (we) did not find it difficult at the beginning of our relationship to be alone in a room together - we did not know each other all that well. I think it became more difficult to abstain probably about a year into the relationship when we started to know each other pretty well. I was not afraid that I wouldn't be able to stop him from initiating sex, but that I wouldn't WANT to stop him. I pretty much knew we would get married but I had made a commitment to myself and God that I would wait and I wanted to honor that.

    7. I am not sure that I can quantify the benefits of abstinence for you, other than the obvious - no STD's, no unplanned pregnancy. I can only say that based on what my friends tell me, I don't have the same kind of emotional baggage that they do - attachments to men they know are no good for them, etc. I am friendly with all the other guys I have ever dated, while they don't seem to be able to do that.

  • D-K

    When we deviate from his instructions on how and when to engage in sex is when we get into trouble. Much like when you put lemonade in your gas tank. The lemonade is not a bad thing, but does not cause optimal performance for your vehicle

    Yeah... except god doesn't tell you when to put gas in the tank.. your car does.

    Samething with sex, your body and mind will let you know once their interested, and will also let you know when it is time. Nothing mystical about it, it's hormones, culture and religion that dictates your life, not god.

    To claim god is in control of your lovelife is ridiculous, religions is. Religion itself is not divine in nature so you're basing your views on relationships on people's interpretation of god, rather than listening to yourself or your body.

    Laying the responsibility for your actions externally is frankly, pathetic. Believing in a god is fine, letting a certain religion dictate your life and the choices you make, is you failing to live your life. The fact that you're insecure is your own doing, or rather, the fact that you did nothing. You are reaping sour fruit from bad decision, being that you made NO decision. You let it be decided, and unless you delude yourself into thinking it'll work out in the end, you'll find that you regret that you let your life's major decisions be based on someone else's ponderings.

    You have done yourself a disservice, and you'll continue to be troubled by your indecisive lifestyle. You show the incapability to take resonsibility for your basic human instincts, as if you are anything more than an animal with basic animal needs.

    Sex does not need to be rationalized, doing so will raise issues which you have shown you can't handle.

    My suggestion is to believe in god for those answers that cannot be answered otherwise (if you HAVE to be belief in god) and to make decisions concerning YOUR life YOURself.

    @Life Observer:

    No thanks, man.

  • Binky

    At no point did I abdicate responsibility for my actions. I chose to be abstinent. I do not place that decision on anyone but myself. I exercised an option. I do not eat every time the urge to consume comes to mind. When I did that, I gained weight. Externally, my nutritionist told me to eat less. Am I delusional to have listened to her? Obviously not. She knew more about nutrition than I. I view the bible the same way. It contains information about life that I do not know.

    I am not sure if your comment about not taking responsibility for basic human instinct was directed at me or not. It would seem to me that just acting on every urge would be more animalistic than restraint would be.

  • D-K

    "At no point did I abdicate responsibility for my actions"

    "I chose to be abstinent. I do not place that decision on anyone but myself"

    Here's where:

    "When we deviate from his instructions on how and when to engage in sex is when we get into trouble"

    "I do not eat every time the urge to consume comes to mind. When I did that, I gained weight"

    Yet you don't ask god for permission to eat right? Why is it normal to take care of your own basic needs with food, yet you relinquish control with sex? How is that logical?

    "Externally, my nutritionist told me to eat less. Am I delusional to have listened to her?"

    Your nutrionist knows about food, what do religious people know about sex? hardly their area of expertise, i'd think. You are delusional in the sense that you base your actions on other people's opinions, and rationalize it in the way that god created life/sex and also religion, and thus you see religion as the instruction/manual for life. Religion has NO answers. none. God might, but religious rules/views/conduct is in no way equal to god.

    "She knew more about nutrition than I. I view the bible the same way. It contains information about life that I do not know"

    Really? The bible is hardly educative when it comes to the mechanics of sex or the "rules" concerning when and how to have it. Have you read the thing?

    "I am not sure if your comment about not taking responsibility for basic human instinct was directed at me or not. It would seem to me that just acting on every urge would be more animalistic than restraint would be"

    It was. I never said you should act on every urge, I said that you should judge whether or not to act on every urge yourself.

    Every religious person abdicates responsibility and more often than not, also accountability.

  • Binky

    Perhaps I was overzealous in including "how" when referring to the bible's instruction on sex. The mechanics of sex is not mentioned, I should not have implied that. The bible is rife with reference to when and with who though.

    You are right, I do not ask God or anyone else when I want to eat. Other than my husband, sex is not a question I pose to others either. When I want to eat, I prepare my food. i cook my meat, wash the veggies, etc. When I wanted to have sex, I prepared myself. I got married. Now, plenty of people like rare meat, I do not. Plenty of people have sex outside of marriage, I do not.

    I do not equate what is contained in the bible with religious people, opinion or tradition. I also do not think God created religion. I think people created religion and on a whole it has messed up more people than it has helped.

    I said that you should judge whether or not to act on every urge yourself.

    I do. I could clearly see that abstaining from sex before marriage would ultimately be in my best interest, and it has been. Would it have been more acceptable if I had said that I abstained because I have had more friends than I care to count die of AIDS and did not want to take that chance? Or that I have several friends that are attached by children to men who are scoundrels and I did not want to be the same? All true. I chose to guard my emotional stability and my body.

  • Dot

    @Binky

    Your marriage is working out fine, and your sex life is satisfying so your sacrifices and efforts have paid off. The same cannot be said for some other people who did just what you did and yet they ended up with poor sex lives. I could have been one of those if I had insisted on getting married to my first boyfriend. I would have probably stayed with him forever despite his inability to satisfy me sexually and constantly blaming me for it, so I am glad I dodged that bullet. I am quite comfortable with the idea of having several spouses within my lifetime, but at the same time I support those who would like to stay with the same spouse for their entire lifetime.

    About being emotionally damaged by having sex with bad guys and ending up with babies whom you have a hard time explaining how you spent some time with their useless fathers, same applies to wives. I have never been married but I imagine a wife would be more hurt because a man has made a public committment to the world that he has chosen to spend part of his life with this particular woman. So brace yourself for this because it might happen. Marriage is not a safe haven from bad treatment.

    One of my workmates has been married three times. The first time she got married she was a virgin and she loved him to death. When he infected her with an STD because he was cheating she quickly jumped ship and divorced him. She regrets that decision because she feels she was young and made a hasty decision. Her children ended up without their father and she struggled to raise them alone. Her second marriage was rebound. Because she believed in sex only in the context of marriage, she felt the need to marry in order to have sex.

    This was a complete disaster. The guy was an alcoholic and was ruining their lives and she had to divorce him. She stayed for 12 years as a single woman and had no interest in men. She recently got married for a 3rd time. She says it's the last marriage, and she finally found the perfect guy. Not perfect as in her never makes a mistake, but that at least he has more respect for women, he supports her and many other things. He's taken her last born son under his wing.

    She has also grown up as a person. Gone are the days when she would suck up to her husbands. She used to iron underwear and starch shirts, not anymore. It's not that she loathes men or loathes taking care of her new husband but she does not feel the need to do this in order to express her love for him. She also does not let her husband run over her like she let the others do. She once had to stop him when he asked her what she was doing outside the house (she was taking the trash out while they were dating, and before he parked the car he craned his neck out the window to ask her this ridiculous question).

    So you might not always find the best man for you the first time, or you might sleep around a lot and get damaged emotionally and fail to recognize a good man when you see one, we just all hope you are happy in whatever you do (this is just what I wish for, for all women). Like you Binky, I advise women to avoid sex as much as possible so they can make better decisions, and also to wait until they are a little older. I always worry for teenage girls having sex.

    @D-K

    I think you are a little too hard on people relinquishing their responsibility by leaving it up to a higher power. I think we all do it on some level. A wife can say the husband has the last say in decison making. Sounds like pretty much what religious people do. When things go wrong, the wife can blame the husband because it was his 'signature' on the decision.

    I can do what the boss asked me but when things go wrong it I can just say the boss told me to do it. I think it helps most of us cope with the harshness of life but yes, it is escapism.

  • D-K

    "Perhaps I was overzealous in including “how” when referring to the bible’s instruction on sex. The mechanics of sex is not mentioned, I should not have implied that. The bible is rife with reference to when and with who though"

    Fair enough, you seem to understand where the wires got crossed, so I'll drop that point.

    "You are right, I do not ask God or anyone else when I want to eat. Other than my husband, sex is not a question I pose to others either. When I want to eat, I prepare my food. i cook my meat, wash the veggies, etc. When I wanted to have sex, I prepared myself. I got married. Now, plenty of people like rare meat, I do not. Plenty of people have sex outside of marriage, I do not"

    Have you questioned your own motivation for not wanting to have sex before marriage? Have you questioned the nature of the frame of reference you based that motivation on?

    If not, then your motivation derives from religious persuasion, even if subconsiously, and is thus irrational.

    "I do not equate what is contained in the bible with religious people, opinion or tradition. I also do not think God created religion. I think people created religion and on a whole it has messed up more people than it has helped"

    What the bible contains IS the intent of religious people, their opinion, traditions and rituals. It was written by men, ages after the much of the events it described took place. I'm not questioning the bible's accuracy or legitamacy (well at least not on this particular page), i'm questioning your lack of questioning concerning the implementation of biblical conduct in your life's choices.

    " I think people created religion and on a whole it has messed up more people than it has helped"

    Amen.

    "I could clearly see that abstaining from sex before marriage would ultimately be in my best interest, and it has been. Would it have been more acceptable if I had said that I abstained because I have had more friends than I care to count die of AIDS and did not want to take that chance?"

    It would be less acceptable, here's why:

    "3. STD’s were not really a deciding factor in my wanting to be abstinent before marriage, although I am glad that I never had one :)"

    And:

    Deprivation does not equal restraint. Deprivation acknowledges your lack of restraint and fortitude. We shouldn't have sex with countless partners because it will increase the chance of std's, it does not mean we shouldn't have sex. By that logic, you would never be able to use a public restroom (as a woman) out of fear for STD's.

    Condoms are epecially designed to decrease the chance of STD's and they do so significantly. By abstinence you indeed minimalize chance for STD's, just as not eating at all minimalizes the chance you'll become overweight. Everything in life should be dosed, not be ignored or abused. Sex is no different.

    "Or that I have several friends that are attached by children to men who are scoundrels and I did not want to be the same?"

    Birth control? Succesrates for each and every brand can be found online, and with most products such as condoms, exceeds 97%. There's not a whole lot in life that has a 97% succesrate, i'd say it's pretty reliable. Anticonception pills are also quite succesful. The eventuality of kids is no reason to abstain from sex. Your friends maybe were careless (VERY POSSIBLE/LIKELY), took a chance, decided to have kids but regretted it later, weren't very compatible to begin with, or any of the other hundreds of variables.

    External relativation is no credible source to base your decisions on. If one of your friends is a binge drinker, would it prevent you from having a glass of wine after a day's work? No. Other people's problems, issues, failed choices or otherwise misinformed choices are not yours to bear.

    "I chose to guard my emotional stability and my body"

    You said that your cause of action indirectly lead to you feeling insecure, that's not emotionally stabile. Of course your husband compares you to other woman, how can you even think for a second that this isn't natural and logical? Argueably, woman tend to do this to a far greater extent, naturally even. Exercising restraint and feeling comfortable in doing so is being emotionally stabile. Deprivation is counter-productive when considering emotional stability

  • D-K

    @Dot:

    I don't think i'm being especially hard, my comment is devoid of emotion and i'm not condemning her for her choices. I merely point out errors in the logic leading up to them.

    I employ the same mindset as Big Dipper concerning this subject matter (I think), with the exception of him being sympathetic and me being just rational. I state fact and refuse to sugarcoat, the error lies not in my mannerism, it lies in the emotional interpretation of my message.

    I don't make things relatable, I don't fit it to the frame of reference of the person i'm debating and I don't try to conceil my emotional indifference. It's up to the person recieiving the message to either focus on the "mean" things and discard it, or focus on the merit and gain perspective.

    I feel that sugarcoating deflates the points I make, and thus part of my message is lost. Learning lies in confrontation leading to acceptance, not being sensitive and selective in what one is teaching to keep it lighthearted and positive.

    I place the blame squarely in the deserving lap, this eliminates the possibility for escapist answers and will lead to the person being confronted by the message, rather than pawning it off.

    Yes, I'm a hard-ass, but i'm kind in trying to teach people.

    Yes, that makes me sound like an arrogant jerk, because I am exactly that. Doesn't take away from the message I offer though.

    Escapism (in life's big decisions) is for the weak and I hate the weak.

  • Dot

    @D-K

    By being rational and devoid of emotion when delivering your answers, you fail to deliver the message effectively. People prefer to take sugar coated medicine than to take it and have to fill all the bitterness. They all want to be better anyway, that's why they take the medicine in the first place. I am all for tough love but when you deal with religious folks, it's very easy to alienate them. They are extremely delicate.

  • D-K

    "By being rational and devoid of emotion when delivering your answers, you fail to deliver the message effectively"

    I respectfully disagree. I'd argue that the message is at it's most effective when it's not sugarcoated, the delivery does not degrade it's urgance in this way. I'd go on to say that it's not my problem how it is received. If one decides to focus on emotion or lack thereof, then one isn't as accepting to logic as i'd have them be in order to understand the message in the first place.

    In short; it's not my fault, it's that of the one discarding the message for irrational reasons. I'm already helping, I don't see any reason to force niceness or hold hands. You could argue that i'm not helping when one fails to understand the message, but then I explained how this isn't my fault.

    "I am all for tough love but when you deal with religious folks, it’s very easy to alienate them. They are extremely delicate"

    Case in point; you describe how the fault lies with the one getting the message, how is it reasonable to expect me to adapt and act accordingly rather than the one with the problem?

  • Dot

    @D-K

    I guess being a marketing major I am actually concerned as to how the message is delivered and how it is perceived, and the effectiveness of the delivery method. Whereas in your line of work you still get paid as long as you deliver the message. I'm more into manipulating people whereas you are into destroying their perceptions of themselves especially if they are deluded. Smoke and mirrors verses stark reality, who wins in the end though? You or me?

  • D-K

    "I’m more into manipulating people whereas you are into destroying their perceptions of themselves especially if they are deluded"

    You get me :D

    I depise delusions, they lead to bad things. I'm an advocator of true honesty, withholding no punches, just 100% undiluted honesty. I can manipulate like the best of them, and sometimes, in special cases, i'll take the time to present different angles and views and manipulate their interpretation, but for the common folk, I use only honesty.

    By using manipulation you are in fact deluding a person, the very thing i'd be trying to break, you see the dilemma, right?

    "Smoke and mirrors verses stark reality, who wins in the end though? You or me?"

    Well.. people do love their smoke and mirrors.. I guess in the end you'll convince more people but to be fair, i'm not specifically in it to help people, just giving my opinion, mostly on the absence of logic to force self-awareness.

    I'm indifferent to the results of my "help", it's therefore irrelevant whether or not different methods garner "better" endresults.

  • Dot

    @D-K

    I never said I minded deluding someone, as long as I get them to do what I want them to do :D I guess we shall always be on opposing teams, me working for government propaganda and selling people ideas and products that can be harmful to them, you on the other hand do not have a paycheck coming based on what you say, so your conscinence shall be clear.

    If I do not work in the field then it would matter if the person was close to me or not. At work I treat everyone different just to get them to give me what I want. If someone thinks I am stupid and ignorant, I approach them from that perspective and they give me all the 'help' I need. If it is someone I care about then I will try to understand their point of view and then use it to help them see the truth. In a few cases I did give up completely and I accept them no matter how deluded they are. I just get ready for the hiccups that occur because of how they are.

    I guess the world needs both types of people, you and I.

  • johnkramer

    I am always surprised how some people seem to not know anything about inter-sexual attraction and human nature in general.
    Realdolls are very good solution for men who, for one reason or another, are unable/unwilling to date real women. And sex is primarily a male need.
    Consider this. How women attract men? By their physical appearance. A man desires a woman as a physical entity, a body.
    How men attract women? By what they have and by what they do. Women are not attracted to men physicaly, but to men as bearers of titles, of wealth, success and status. Sex is a currency, and women usually exchange it for things they want from men. Mental traits are also important, like initiative, dominance, sense of humour, spontaneity, ability to keep a woman entertained, amused, to make a good show. Sex is never "free", and until today there hasn't been found a single society, from the most primitive ones to the most civilised, where sex isn't typically a female "gift", or favour. Females are always the ones who "give", males are the ones who "get some", without exception. Chimp females exchange sex for bananas and protection, for example.
    Human relationships are a compromise, a trade. Man takes care of woman, supports her, protects her, makes her laugh, and shares his success and status with her - and she reciprocates with physical intimacy - sex isn't what she wants, it is what she gives in return. That's pretty much "the deal", that's the way it really is, although it's not a romantic idea.
    A man would like to believe that his girlfriend is in love with him in the same way he is in love with her, that she feels tendernes and desire for him in a more physical sense.
    And a woman would like to believe that her boyfriend is more attracted to her other qualities, accomplishments and her personality, and less towards her appearance.
    But what can you do? Biological reality is different.
    Of course, understanding, friendship, trust and mutual aid should be the basis of every type of human relationship, but attraction is not the same as friendship, and while some end up together just to avoid being alone, most people would not marry someone just because they need "a companion". You could have guy friends that understand you much beter than any woman, but woman is desired for different reasons. In some ways, two sexes are like two different species.
    It is often difficult for women to understand that they are objects of desire, and how intensive are those desires. There is nothing that could compare with feelings of a man that meets his "ideal woman", "his type". Those are the feelings of tenderness, of fascination with beauty, of intense sexual arousal, difficult to describe with words. But also, strong need creates the risk of strong suffering and frustration.
    Many guys are unhappy in life because they never got the chance to enjoy in a beautiful woman. Now, some think that anyone could date and "get some" only if they made enough effort. But we are all born different. I could think of great number of reasons why would someone opt out from the game, retract from the sexual market. People have their problems. No one can decide what to feel or not to feel - feelings arise in areas of brain that are not under conscious control - we can supress a feeling for some time, but we can't destroy it or create a new, more "appropriate" one. No one shapes his own personality. We are what we are.
    I saw someone saying above that even invalids could have sex/ or relationships, so there is no "excuse" for using surrogates (like realdolls)., Like people are some automatons in panic fear of not being considered normal.
    Well, there are other feelings, also. Like pride for example, which can be very powerful motive. Maybe someone who is disabled, sick, or unattractive, or problematic in some way, simply knows that he would never feel good enough in front of any woman. Maybe someone suffers from anxiety disorder and it is mission impossible for him to relax, to communicate spontaneusly. Maybe it is simply unprofitable to try dating - stress will always kill whatever satisfaction someone can get. There are all kinds of psychological disorders, and people who are aware of their problems sometimes choose to stay alone, simply as an act of will. Maybe they don't want to pretend they are something else just to get laid, maybe they are afraid of hurting others or being hurt. Some people are also ashamed of themselves because they are unsuccesful. Or maybe someone was so deeply in love with some unavailable or unattainable girl that he could never settle for anyone else, or at least for some time.
    I don't think anyone has right to characterize such feelings and decisions are "wrong" or "stupid". People feel what they can feel. No one has unlimited number of options, and most people struggle with their limitations, trying to extract some little satisfaction from life. No one has right to judge them.
    Some doll owners might be very like those shown in the documentary, other might not. Certainly not all of them would talk to their dolls and take care of them as they were living beings. However I don't see anything wrong with that either. If it works for them, if constructing a fantasy world of intimacy helps them cope with their shortcomings and deal with stress of daily life, if it helps them feel something good, why not? A guy comes home from work and looks forward to something in his free time.
    Possibility of getting injured should not be a reason not to enjoy outdoor acitivities, however it might be a good reason to be extra careful if you have a fragile bone syndrome.
    People get hurt in relationships and when they are rejected. Some might feel hurt more than others, and if it is too much combined with bad experiences, better for them to avoid it and find a safe substitute.
    But the reasons for choosing a surrogate sex object could also be much more trivial. It could be just about having some extra sex. Or someone has a special fetish that he wishes to satisfy occasionaly.
    Some guys are blamed for being too "choosy", waiting for the right girl for too long. But you can't choose what you are attracted to. If you have so specific taste that there is only a small number of women that fall under your criteria, and even smaller that would settle for you, than your chances of meeting the right one are seriously diminished, and you will wait for a long time.
    True, even the most unsuccessful and unattractive guy could theoretically find a girl that would settle for him, but maybe he would not consider even touching that particular girl. Why would that be wrong? Who could force him to be with someone he cannot like? If someone fails to attract most women, why would that mean he automatically has to like unattractive ones? Maybe that particular guy is the choosiest guy in the world and has met only a few girls in his entire lifetime that he would settle for. You just cant say to someone : you are ugly and short and you should date ugly and unfeminine girls. Sexual taste is a weird thing. Beauty is relative. (For example, I have a very "specific" taste, however women that I find ideal might seem average or even unattractive to some other guy) Ocassionaly you meet a normal, successful, intelligent guy that is going out with a woman so ugly that if you were eating when you saw her, you wouldn't be able to finish your meal. Who knows what he "sees in her"? Or a beautiful woman dating some punk living on the margins of society when she could be with some rich successful doctor or lawyer? "Woman like this with a guy like that!!? Noooo.." There is always variation, and it is a basis of evolution, however in original human societies living in the wild, natural selection would punish such choices. Thats why most men today like voluptous women with nice symetrical face and thick hair, and why most women like wealthy, capable, highly functioning men.
    So to summarize:
    For many guys, it is very difficult or impossible to get sex, for some others relationships can be unsatisfying, overly traumatic, frustrating, or simply are not an option. Most of them are not some "evil psychopatic necrophiliacs" or "narcissists wanting perfect partners", but simply guys with their issues. I agree that some of them, with the right encouragement and support, could in fact have real satisfying relationships, but most probably could not.
    But in a relationship or not, men need sex. Women don't have male realdolls, because physical male body is not what they are attracted to (they are attracted to men's abilities, activities posessions, etc).
    Every man's dream is a beautiful, sexy female. At this moment, nothing could effectively simulate a real, warm, moving and breathing woman, and definitely there is nothing like being in love with a real person. But if it is just sex you want, realdolls come as close as possible to the real thing, and are better option than prostitute, i think. Realdolls are very nicely made, very realistic and can be customized to fit anyone's taste. I can see how a hard working guy (like me:)), having both a demanding job and a challenging hobby, could get some extra motivation by rewarding himself with an exciting bed-game with a sexy female body. In fact, i am considering buying one when I save enough money, I already know how it would look like, and occasionaly I like to visit the site just to check what's new.
    Yes, that's all I wanted to say now.
    Bye

  • Dot

    @johnkramer

    That was an interesting answer. Thanks :)

  • Epicurean_Logic

    Don't go for the doll @johnkramer a prostitute is a better option! Its a win/win scenario as long as she is well payed! Its also much more exciting and you gain more real experience from it. Just don't fall in love with them!

    Dude, when i eventually read your extended comment, it became pretty clear that you are an intelligent guy with a lot of interesting, valid opinions and a good job. Join a dating site?

    Sorry to drop my opinion on you like this I just don't want to see you cop out of life experience like that.

  • D-K

    @JohnKramer:

    It's a matter of contemplation and enlightenment. Baser instincts can be dominated by logic and reasoning with proper training, one needs but favor the left side of the brain.

    Woman are pre-dominantly emotional creatures, those that are aware, are able to adapt and manipulate their personality, or in other words; rationalize. Your observation of sex being currency (to woman) is correct, but this is traceable to the mechanic of supply and demand. Woman maintaining the balance is a illusion forced upon us by society/media/culture. These things can easily be overcome by an individualist, and seeing as a sense of individualism and distinction is becoming ever more present, I see a dramatic shift down the line.

    It's the well-known metaphor of "the game", and there are those that play it, and those that play a different game. Desiring specific character traits is a way of breaking the game, as the game is based on sexual impulse and imposed methods of attraction, and searching beyond, or simply redefining the "search criteria", one can deduce logical compatibility, rather than direct (shallow) sexual attraction.

    The mistake that many woman make is to assume that "the game" still applies in a relationship, which implies a shallow and simple nature. This is why clubs, bars and any pressurized social setting, where we must conform to unwritten codes of conduct of wooing, are terrible places to search for a serious relationship. The mindset is completely different and counter-productive towards the goal of building a relationship by replacing character compatibility by meeting physical needs..

    Woman that live according to the game are treated like objects because they objectify themselves, which is why a lot of woman, specifically younger woman, are pathetic. All effort is made towards skillfully playing the game; make-up, tan, clothes, accessories, etc. rather than forming a distinctive and INTERESTING personality.

    Needless to say, men have their defects as well, although I should say that, ironically, they are inherently less destructive to the concept of a relationship than a woman's defects. Only a few people (relative) will know what it takes to start, support and maintain a healthy equal relationship, because most people have false senses of equality and mutual dependance. As with all mechanics in social interaction, one must understand to properly execute, and very little people seem to understand (which is also true for most things)

    Want booty? Go clubbing (or get a doll)

    Want a meaningful relationship? Use specifically themed, non-pressurized gatherings, or personality comparing instruments, such as online datingsites.

  • Temirova

    Really sad about his mother and all the objects staying exactly the same. Poignant documentary, insightful and quite profound.. I guess we should always look a peoples reasons and what causes them to act in such a way before criticising.

  • StarSapphire

    This is extremely sad, but at the same time i can't blame this type of behavior on "Social Awkwardness" alone. A lot of men who have issues dating women will state that "All women are shallow, they only care about money," ETC. But these types of women that they pursue typically are the "Beautiful" tall blondes with fake breasts that most men are after. Not generalizing here, but we all know how some women who were born with looks like that can be.

    I guess most of these "Socially Awkward" men aren't willing to date an average looking, socially awkward woman like themselves, using the whole "She's not my type" excuse, yet we as women are shallow? But if an average looking woman were to approach a highly attractive "Alpha Male" she would get laughed at, not only by his buddies but by other women as well. Comments like, "Look at her hair" or, "OMG She is so fat" would ensue. Because most people would agree that an average/and or ugly woman does not, nor should she belong with an attractive male. Because in this society, women are just supposed to look a certain way in order to be deemed "Desirable", when men are never held up to the same standard.

    Beautiful women are expected to see past a man's physical flaws, and see that he has a good "Heart". But when she doesn't, and she expresses the desire to an equally attractive mate, she's considered shallow. But men are never expected to do the same (And plenty don't), whether he's a stud or not, yet these men aren't considered shallow at all. I'm sure most men who do partake in "Relationships" with these dolls do have some sort of sexual fetish for inanimate objects (As shown in the documentary), but others in this world i'm sure just like the feeling of controlling the way these "Women" look, they ALWAYS look perfect. Some men are so obsessed with wanting to fuck these plastic looking, huge fake breasted women who are the standard of feminine beauty these days, that they'll even settle for something that isn't real. But just the fact that men like that are so hung up on having sex with "Beautiful" women, and not anything deeper than that is what's really sad to me.

  • D-K

    @StarSaphhire:

    "Beautiful women are expected to see past a man’s physical flaws, and see that he has a good “Heart”."

    I disagree, I'd say that every woman except the beautiful ones are expected to look beyond physical flaws and should focus on character. Beautiful woman usually get by on their looks, and don't have to develop an interesting character, or any ambitions towards a serious relationship. Beautiful people are cursed with shallowness, which is caused by society reacting positively to their looks, instead of their attitude or character.

    Beautiful people are expected to be beautiful, and nothing more. That's why half the world is amazed at a supermodel that actually has an iq rising above that of a wet newspaper.

    It's why most teenage girls and young woman are pathetic and useless, priorities jumbled by media and lack of intelligence.

    Actually, it's mostly the lack of intelligence, caused by an emphasis on looks.

  • StarSapphire

    @D-K
    I think that women as a whole are expected to see past a man's physical flaws, from what i see women are first to be called "shallow" in society just for being selective in her physical preferences, but men, do it all the time and no one has anything to say about it. True, some beautiful women do get by on their looks and thrive on that, but not ALL attractive women are void of personality and intelligence.

    Personal perception has a lot to do with that. Just because a woman is considered "beautiful" does not mean that she sees herself that way. and, if she doesn't, more than likely the way she carries herself, and the way she relates herself to others would be quite different from the vain bimbo who uses men to get what she wants. Also, in most instances these "beautiful" women aren't truely beautiful, all they are is just a model of what our standard of feminine beauty is supposed to look like, what we have all been conditioned to believe is beautiful by the media for decades.

    So, when someone sees a woman who fits that look, i believe that they are reacting to the status quo attached to her appearance, not her actual appearance itself. I think when it comes right dowm to it, stupid people are stupid people, whether they are "attractive" or not. Yes, most teenage girls and young women are stupid and useless (Though this 18 yr old isn't!), but so are young men today as well. Everybody is SO brainwashed by this crap in the media today, it's all anyone can see. All these women want to look like supermodels, and all men want to do is chase after women who look like them. In the end, it's all abou making money, and it's quite destructive to humanity in return.

  • D-K

    StarSapphire:

    "I think that women as a whole are expected to see past a man’s physical flaws, from what i see women are first to be called “shallow” in society just for being selective in her physical preferences, but men, do it all the time and no one has anything to say about it"

    You're swapping cause and effect, I think. Woman who define themselves by their appearance get judged on their appearance, while you describe it as; woman define themselves by their appearance because they get judged on their appearance.

    "but not ALL attractive women are void of personality and intelligence"

    True, but beautiful and attractive are 2 very different things. Attractiveness can be related to personality as well as exterior, whereas beautiful just relates to exterior.

    It's basically a scale, the more time one spends on their looks, the less time they spend exploring/forming their personalities. It's why beautiful people tend to get divorced multiple times. It's because they are uninteresting or simply unlikeable beyond their appearance, and that is all that remains after the novelty of her beauty wears off.

    "I think when it comes right dowm to it, stupid people are stupid people, whether they are “attractive” or not"

    Ah, but beauty breeds stupidity. Beautiful people usually get "compliments" and positive behaviour directed to them because people react to their looks. The beautiful person receiving the "compliments" mistake them for actual compliments that concern their personality. They misconstrue this to them being a positive force, when they're actually not. People work on the traits that suit them, and if someone's getting positive feedback on 1 particular part, they'll focus a great deal of attention into maximizing that trait, rather than seeking balance or improving the traits with actual substance.

  • StarSapphire

    "Ah, but beauty breeds stupidity. Beautiful people usually get “compliments” and positive behaviour directed to them because people react to their looks. The beautiful person receiving the “compliments” mistake them for actual compliments that concern their personality. They misconstrue this to them being a positive force, when they’re actually not. People work on the traits that suit them, and if someone’s getting positive feedback on 1 particular part, they’ll focus a great deal of attention into maximizing that trait, rather than seeking balance or improving the traits with actual substance."

    Again, a very one-sided view of people. All beautiful people are NOT created equal. Most of the time, beauty IS just public perception, it does NOT refect that person's feelings and perception of themselves, and sometimes differing public perception is not enough to change that person's view of themselves. Yes, what you said is true for some, but people who let that type of attention affect them in that way are stupid to begin with. All my life i've been told i was "beautiful" "pretty", or anything in that catagory. It always annoyed me, mostly because these were adults, and i was a kid, and i felt like all they were seeing was my appearance. Plus, it frustrated me how i never saw what they did in the mirror. Even when i might have felt a bit flattered by a compliment, it's not a major thing, because it's not a majorly flattering type of compliment. I don't spend a lot of time on my appearance at all, sometimes when i don't do my hair i go outside with a scarf on my head because i can't be so bothered. I'm shocked when guys (And men) are coming up to me telling me how pretty they think i am, and how they want my number. At first, it doesn't really make sense to me, because i don't see myself as pretty or beautiful at that time, i just don't care either way, so why do other people? And now i realize, the way other people view me isn't my problem, whether that be positive or negative. I'm still me, and that wouldn't change no matter how i look. Most people who thrive on that type of attention are stupid with no substance to begin with, do you really think that would change if they weren't beautiful? That they would instantly strive to develop their character? MOST people, beautiful or not display lack of character, they would just become another average-looking asshole in the world.

    "Woman who define themselves by their appearance get judged on their appearance, while you describe it as; woman define themselves by their appearance because they get judged on their appearance."

    Women judge themselves by their appearance because people and society DO judge women by their appearance. It's been that way since the beginning, women are judged by their beauty alone. Women in the past were never judged on our strength, or our intellect, if we were, don't you think we automatically would have been given certain choices that men had? Or maybe if women weren't judged soley on appearance alone in society, then maybe it wouldn't have been taboo for women to wear pants instead of dresses and skirts all the time. Back then it was seen as masculine, masculine equaling ugly, and not sexually desirable, when all we wanted was to dress comfortably. Look at this generation, look at the media, all you see are magazines and television shows marketing some blonde, thin, fake chested women as the ideal. We see images like this from VERY young ages, the media and society TELLING us that this is how we should look. At the same time, we are not getting messages that it's cool or "desirable" to be smart, or strong in any way. Just be pretty and fuckable, that's about it. So yes, young women in my generation are compelled to change themselves in any way possible to emulate that. Sure, it's stupid on their part, and shows lack of character, but they are just a symptom of the virus, and the virus is where society is today (Or always has been).

    The fact of the matter is, people will ALWAYS judge beautiful women on their apperance, whether it be postive or negative. I'm sorry, but you are displaying that same judgement, by assuming that all beautiful women thrive on being beautiful and nothing more.

    I also want to add that all beautiful people don't always become that way by spending an exorbitant amount of time on their appearance, some are just born looking pleasing to the eye. If people view them in that way, that is their personal opinion, and if those people want to comment, then it's up to that woman how she handles it, and let's it effect her. That in itself has to do what's inside, not outside. Also, just because a woman spends an exorbitant amount of time on her appearance, does not guarantee that she'll come out looking beautiful, but more importantly, it does not guarantee that others will view as beautiful as well.

  • Dot

    @Star Sapphire

    You may be one in a few, but D-K was giving us what most of the beautiful/pretty people have going on in their heads. Truth be told, I have met many good looking people and there is not much usually going on in their head. They never had the need to excel in anything so they tend to be stupid.

    I also thought beautiful people are stuck up but then one year out of school changed me. I spent too many hours working and I had to talk to more people than usual at most jobs. When I went back to school again I guess I had forgotten that beautiful people are stuck up. I just started talking to them, I wasn't scared. Guess what? They didn't have a bad attitude towards other people. It's how people react to them, so the problem was with me, not those people. My former deskmate is really pretty, but she will talk to anyone who will talk to her. And she has a very good heart, and was a double major. She just graduated with me this past May. She is also very very smart.

    I have a workmate who is stupid but she has a good heart and she talks to everyone. But the so called ugly people (read fat women) give her hell all the time. They think she is stuck up just because she is blonde and skinny so she ends up having to behave differently just to avoid annoying fat women.

    So Sapphire, do not feel the need to have to defend yourself. It is quite hard to find beauty and brains in a person, or at least have it developed in the person. And some women spend a lot of time on their appearance because that is what makes them feel feminine, and even the tranny that I live with does a whole lot more to be a woman than I do. Like you, I simply don't care much about how I look like but for me since I cut my hair off completely I catch hell from people who think I am trying to be unfeminine. I simply ignore them. It's ok to be who you are.

    I think I just mixed up a few things or forgot what I was trying to say. You be who you are, and ignore all that stuff people expect you to be. The fake breasts look pretty wierd to normal people, and I think those are the people whose opinion you need to be concerned about.

  • D-K

    "Again, a very one-sided view of people. All beautiful people are NOT created equal. Most of the time, beauty IS just public perception, it does NOT refect that person’s feelings and perception of themselves, and sometimes differing public perception is not enough to change that person’s view of themselves"

    I did not say ALL beautiful people are stupid, I painted the picture of how beautiful people oftenly lack incentive/motivation to invest in their character/personality. I'd also argue that beauty isn't public perception, rather it's individual perception. There are several traits that are widely accepted as beautiful, such as facial symmetry, curvy stature, etc. but it's still mostly a personal affair.

    You actually acknowledge what I'm saying by this: "MOST people, beautiful or not display lack of character, they would just become another average-looking asshole in the world"

    Most people are stupid thus it is highly probable that most beautiful people are stupid.

    "All my life i’ve been told i was “beautiful” “pretty”, or anything in that catagory. It always annoyed me, mostly because these were adults, and i was a kid, and i felt like all they were seeing was my appearance"

    I think you relate the matter to yourself too much, the fact that you're an 18yo girl, browsing THIS site is enough to seperate you from the pack.

    "Women judge themselves by their appearance because people and society DO judge women by their appearance. It’s been that way since the beginning, women are judged by their beauty alone"

    This is where you show your age. In ye olden times, (eraly to late 20th century) what constituted "a good woman" was based entirely on character traits, mostly related to family-oriented responsibilities (cooking, cleaning, caring for husband etc). As for the whole pants-thing, segregation was quite prevalent in those days, not just between sexes, but between races, age and cultural status. Each group had individual "taboo's" and codes of conduct, and each group argued to be repressed by the others. The same song is being played today, everybody's a victim..

    "The fact of the matter is, people will ALWAYS judge beautiful women on their apperance, whether it be postive or negative. I’m sorry, but you are displaying that same judgement, by assuming that all beautiful women thrive on being beautiful and nothing more"

    I didn't say all, I said most. I'm not saying that people aren't influenced by media, I'd argue that woman are targeted specifically because most woman are emotional creatures, waiting to be manipulated. Sure, stating it like that will rustle some feathers, but it's true nonetheless.

    This isn't an insurmountable obstacle though, but seeing as an emphasis on looks will reap some benefits, mostly falling in the catagory of instant-gratification, most girls/woman (of average intelligence) will go for the looks department.

    Seeing as most woman are of average intelligence, you have most woman emphasising their looks, and "advertizing" them. I'm not offending you, i'm stating facts.

    Lastly; " We see images like this from VERY young ages, the media and society TELLING us that this is how we should look. At the same time, we are not getting messages that it’s cool or “desirable” to be smart, or strong in any way. Just be pretty and fuckable, that’s about it"

    Don't victimize yourself, or woman alike. Forming a solid frame of reference is a parental responsibility, and not succumbing to fads/trends, media expectations or "the public perception of beauty" is pretty much YOUR responsibility.

    Beautiful stupid people are what they are because of themselves, and their parents. The media is not forcing you to look a certain way, just as much as the media isn't forcing me to act like men in guy-flicks. If someone feels that they have to live up to certain expectations beyond their own, or those that they actually don't agree with, than they're pathetic simpletons.

  • StarSapphire

    @ Dot:

    Yor are totally right, but this is just a topic that strikes a serious cord with me. I've had a "Feminist" mentality since i was 13, so women's issues in society will always evoke a passionate response from me. And kudos to you for chopping your hair off, short hair on women looks awesome i think, and i can't imagine how lighter your head must feel!

    @ D-K:

    "I think you relate the matter to yourself too much, the fact that you’re an 18yo girl, browsing THIS site is enough to seperate you from the pack."

    I relate this matter to myself because i'm a female living in this society, whether my intelligence "separates" me from the pack or not.

    "Don’t victimize yourself, or woman alike. Forming a solid frame of reference is a parental responsibility, and not succumbing to fads/trends, media expectations or “the public perception of beauty” is pretty much YOUR responsibility.

    Beautiful stupid people are what they are because of themselves, and their parents. The media is not forcing you to look a certain way, just as much as the media isn’t forcing me to act like men in guy-flicks. If someone feels that they have to live up to certain expectations beyond their own, or those that they actually don’t agree with, than they’re pathetic simpletons."

    Women HAVE been victimzed because of this, i'm not saying it isn't due to our own stupidity and complacency in that supidity, and i do believe that until we as women stand up and make a difference for ourselves, nothing will change. But, at the same time, just because most people are stupid and gullible to the effects of society, does NOT give society the right to take advantage of this fact, if anything it makes it even more deplorable in my opinion. Yes, we all have free will, and parental input does have a lot to do with our overall view of the world and ourselves, but how many older women feel the need to get botox, or a breastlift because her husband doesn't make her feel sexy anymore, while he's busy oogling some 20-something? How is this woman supposed to tell her 17 yr old daughter to not let the media affect her, when the media and society is affecting her and her husband as well? This is a problem that transcends to different generations. We have been slaves to the fashion and entertainment industry for years, using that as a model of admiration and aspiration, allowing them to use us as puppets to make money off of. Yes, we all need to change how we think and look at ourselves as women, but the media needs to be called out on it's behavior, and society needs to stop using the media as it's leader. That HAS to change, regardless of our own personal choices, for me as a young woman, growing up around this just isn't healthy... It just is NOT healthy for our mental wellbeing in any capacity. If society wasn't the way it is today, not only would women not feel the need to value ourselves by our appearance, but neither would society as a whole. The way we think and value women as a gender, and our place in society would change. Like i said, women are the ones that have to stand up and demand this change. But, the only way women can wake up and change is though education on this issue, other women in positions of power in society coming out and speaking on this issue. Then as women as a whole begin to change, the media will be FORCED to change the way the choose to advertive and sell their entertainment to us and society in general, which will bring forth even more change, opening new avenues for women to be portrayed... And ultimately society as a whole WILL change, and the lasting portrayal and role of how women are valued and viewed in society will be changed for future generations to come. But, education on this issue is non-existant right now. So, as a result of this, women of all generations continue to judge and value themselves on their appearance, and use the media as a blueprint to do so, because there is nothing out here in society to educate them, or show them anything better. Simply stating that the reason why women who think that way do so because they are "Pathetic Simpletons" is a rather overly simplistic, detached point of view, but then again, that is just my opinion.

  • D-K

    "I relate this matter to myself because i’m a female living in this society, whether my intelligence “separates” me from the pack or not"

    Just be aware that one cannot see the bigger picture, if one rationalizes societal issues towards the self.

    "Women HAVE been victimzed because of this, i’m not saying it isn’t due to our own stupidity and complacency in that supidity, and i do believe that until we as women stand up and make a difference for ourselves, nothing will change"

    What you're saying is that woman are victims of their own stupidity, which is pretty much what i've been saying. Most of them place the blame externally, and do so vaguely to escape having to back it up reasonably. That's where "pathetic simpletons" comes in.. surely you can agree to this?

    "just because most people are stupid and gullible to the effects of society, does NOT give society the right to take advantage of this fact, if anything it makes it even more deplorable in my opinion"

    Society is not an entity, it cannot be held responsible for anything. People choose to conform to society, which gets it's rules from the cultural human collective. You CHOOSE to conform to society's rules, you thus forfeit any right to place the blame externally.

    "but how many older women feel the need to get botox, or a breastlift because her husband doesn’t make her feel sexy anymore"

    ...are you serious? you blame husbands for woman (of a certain age) getting botox, having a desire to get "botoxed" or resorting to other means to retain a youthful appearance? That is messed up.. seriously.

    "How is this woman supposed to tell her 17 yr old daughter to not let the media affect her, when the media and society is affecting her and her husband as well?"

    She can offer the right perspective, build up a societal aware frame of reference, but i'd suggest doing that a little earlier than the age of 17. It all boils down to intelligence and insight. Only stupid people are trapped in society's paradigm, and should be (imo), as they'd probably be lost without such guidance.

    "but the media needs to be called out on it’s behavior, and society needs to stop using the media as it’s leader"

    Again, media and society aren't entities, they don't behave or lead. You can reason your way out of the imposed paradigm if your mental capacity will allow you to, and you can teach your children. Any other sort of notion of actually influencing society and the media is misguided and delusional. I could call it ambitious and optimistic to make it sound positive, but I don't really care about being
    positive, i'm a realist.

    "Like i said, women are the ones that have to stand up and demand this change"

    There is nothing to be demanded, there is noone pulling society's strings, I don't know what gives you this idea, but it's entirely unfounded. You can change yourself and you can manipulate/enlighten your children and maybe climb on a soapbox and touch some people, but that's pretty much it. You make change yourself, it isn't anything to be demanded, not when it's concerning the whole of society anyway.

    " Simply stating that the reason why women who think that way do so because they are “Pathetic Simpletons” is a rather overly simplistic, detached point of view"

    Well, to be fair I substantiated why I said that. Anyone who accepts imposed mannerisms or codes of conduct without reflecting and contemplating or even thinking about it, is a simpleton. There is no denying this, it's hurde-behaviour.. like a bunch of docile sheep functioning solely on the r-complex and adhering to trivial and arbitrary rules without giving it second thought. Yes, that pretty much constitutes a simpleton.

  • StarSapphire

    "Just be aware that one cannot see the bigger picture, if one rationalizes societal issues towards the self."

    I relate this issue to myself because i'm affected by it, therefore i'm seeing ALL aspects of this issue, unlike someone like you who isn't affected by it, or simply chooses not to see the effects of it.

    "What you’re saying is that woman are victims of their own stupidity, which is pretty much what i’ve been saying. Most of them place the blame externally, and do so vaguely to escape having to back it up reasonably. That’s where “pathetic simpletons” comes in.. surely you can agree to this?"

    No... I said that women have been victims of society, BUT we have allowed this due to our own stupidity and ignorance, simply because we have had no education on this issue to cure this ignorance.

    "Society is not an entity, it cannot be held responsible for anything."

    Society can be held responsible for whatever we as americans choose to hold it responsible for. Just the fact that you made that statement shows that you have chosen to believe that, which is fine, but i however will not accept that.

    "…are you serious? you blame husbands for woman (of a certain age) getting botox, having a desire to get “botoxed” or resorting to other means to retain a youthful appearance? That is messed up.. seriously."

    I do NOT blame husbands, i'm saying how BOTH parties in that situation are being influenced by the negative effects of where society is today, it's not as black and white as you look at it, it really is a circle of destruction.

    "Again, media and society aren’t entities, they don’t behave or lead. You can reason your way out of the imposed paradigm if your mental capacity will allow you to, and you can teach your children. Any other sort of notion of actually influencing society and the media is misguided and delusional. I could call it ambitious and optimistic to make it sound positive, but I don’t really care about being
    positive, i’m a realist."

    The media most certainly does lead... Where are your eyes at? The fashion, beauty, and entertainment industries are all set up to feed on women's insecurites, and the more it goes on, the more insecurities women will have. The fashion industry TELLS women that they are nothing without wearing these labels, yet most of these labels don't go up to the sizes that the average woman fits, whilist the entertainment industry is constantly throwing these rail thin models and actresses in your face, telling you that this is the standard of beauty, and how you should look like them. While the beauty industry is constanty throwing some anti-aging crap at you, telling you that you have wrinkles, and that it's unacceptable... And that you NEED to fix that about yourself. All the media wants women to do is change themselves to fit this profile of what the standard of beauty is today, just so they can make money. It's ALL about money, and the more money is made, the more agressive they get with their marketing. All i'm saying is, if women were able to see this bullshit for what it is, these industries would be forced to change how they choose to run things, because women are the core of it, we are the ones who are making money for them. If we all suddenly stopped buying into all of it, what the hell would they have left? If this were to happen, it would instill a domino effect of change in women, and in society as a whole.

    "Any other sort of notion of actually influencing society and the media is misguided and delusional. I could call it ambitious and optimistic to make it sound positive, but I don’t really care about being
    positive, i’m a realist."

    "You can change yourself and you can manipulate/enlighten your children and maybe climb on a soapbox and touch some people, but that’s pretty much it. You make change yourself, it isn’t anything to be demanded, not when it’s concerning the whole of society anyway."

    Why is the notion that you can instill positive change in your fellow man misguided or delusional? Because it's a difficult thing to achieve? Just because things are the way they are does NOT mean that you have to accept it being that way... And if everyone thought the way you do and simply chalked up issues like this to "Stupidity and personal responsiblity", then women probably still wouldn't be able to vote because we aren't as "Smart" as men, and black people would still be getting lynched with complete justification because of whatever ignorant, hateful idiology and reasoning back then. I'm sorry, but what you call "Realism", i call being jaded and bitter... And i hope to god i never choose to resign myself to that way to thinking as you have.

    I've said all i have to say on this issue, i'm not gonna sit here and argue semantics and personal beliefs with you. We obviously have two different mentalities, and i'm not going to change your mind (Not that it was my intention), and you sure as hell aren't going to change mine. I still stand by everything i have said, and i'm sure you feel the same about your statements.

  • D-K

    " relate this issue to myself because i’m affected by it, therefore i’m seeing ALL aspects of this issue, unlike someone like you who isn’t affected by it, or simply chooses not to see the effects of it"

    Baseless assumption, I'm a member of society, therefore I suffer/enjoy the effects of society. I'd argue that by being affected, you CANNOT see all aspects of it, you cannot be objective.

    "No… I said that women have been victims of society, BUT we have allowed this due to our own stupidity and ignorance"

    Then you are victim of your own stupidity. This cannot be argued, this is logical cause/effect mechanics.

    "Society can be held responsible for whatever we as americans choose to hold it responsible for"

    ...? Will society break down crying, apologise and repent for it's wicked ways? Again, society is not an entity, it's a man made construct of social contract. Imposed frame of reference and codes of conduct to maximize probable co-existance. Society is a philosophical tool, you cannot blame the tool, only how man makes and utilizes it.

    "The media most certainly does lead… Where are your eyes at? The fashion, beauty, and entertainment industries are all set up to feed on women’s insecurites, and the more it goes on, the more insecurities women will have. The fashion industry TELLS women that they are nothing without wearing these labels, yet most of these labels don’t go up to the sizes that the average woman fits, whilist the entertainment industry is constantly throwing these rail thin models and actresses in your face, telling you that this is the standard of beauty, and how you should look like them. While the beauty industry is constanty throwing some anti-aging crap at you, telling you that you have wrinkles, and that it’s unacceptable…"

    Hahahaha, the media suggests, it does not lead. It suggests what beauty is, responsibility lies in the eyes of the observer. Tv may tell you lots of things, but you don't have to listen. Again, you take responsibility out of your hands, and place it in a medium, that isn't reasonable or even rational.

    " If we all suddenly stopped buying into all of it, what the hell would they have left? If this were to happen, it would instill a domino effect of change in women, and in society as a whole"

    Exactly. You contradict yourself, as here you place action and responsibility back to woman. You ARE responsible. You cannot demand change, you can however, make change. I've been saying this.

    "Just because things are the way they are does NOT mean that you have to accept it being that way"

    Then why do woman take on these imposed forms of beauty? Why do you blame society and the media, when it is your own fault for accepting their idealogy? How come it's their fault that you listen to them? If someone is talking nonsense, you DON'T listen. Woman like you have chosen to listen and then blame soceity and media for negative consequences, thát is simplistic.

    I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm poiting out the gaping hole in your logic. Giving in to the imposed view of beauty and then blaming something else (that can't even be blamed) for you giving in to something evil/bad, is ridiculous.

    You switch position seamlessly on multiple occasions, clearly you haven't though about your position in any meaningful way.

  • StarSapphire

    @ D-K
    Maybe you didn't read what i wrote before, but i am done arguing semantics and my opinion with you, you are free to feel how you feel about my "logic", or my views on society, but at this point i truly do not care. It's pointless for me to continue this argument, because it's clear at this point i'm not going to agree with you on anything, and i'm done explaining my position to you.

  • D-K

    @Starsapphire

    We were not arguing semantics or opinion, we were discussing societal issues. If you wish to safe face (from yourself?), then that's fine by me, but don't masquerade this discussion as a simple difference in opinion. I never attacked your opinion, only the logic leading up to it.

    Not caring is fine, so is being done with discussing this, but you were not explaining your position, you were rationalizing it.

    Perhaps in time you'll see more clearly.

  • me

    the dolls face! its like "KILL ME PLEASE"
    haha

  • abfallmensch

    as someone who's last relationship is five years ago (iam 29)
    i can understand why these guy's bought their toy's. for me it would be a sexual pleasure thing. (although i'd go for a prostitute who's not only cheaper but also more fun,but i dont because...iam to f...ing shy)
    on the one hand i think it's sad to see these guy's actually giving up on themself and start a "relationship" with a doll on the other hand i think i understand them a bit,out of my own expirience of feeling lonly very often, i dont mean just sex but having a partner to care for and be cared for. beeing loved, have a welcome when you come home and not just an empty space, a soulmate you can argue with and learn more about yourself and the partner. but it's not that easy to find a partner nowaday's (i know thats my own fault but its still an issue) and of course a doll wont give you all things said above, but to these fella's it seems it does. (although its weird) btw:forgive me the grammar, english is not my first language.
    as for another thing: a thank you goes to Vlatko for getting up this site here and providing all sort's of documentary's.
    iam a fan now since a good while and just wanted to mention that.

  • abfallmensch

    @D-K
    "Society is not an entity, it cannot be held responsible for anything. People choose to conform to society, which gets it’s rules from the cultural human collective. You CHOOSE to conform to society’s rules, you thus forfeit any right to place the blame externally."
    i agree to a certain degree on that one, but, you do choose and you dont at the same time. for one thing, you have no choice in ,say,getting your birth certificate and automaticly be part of the "society" (thats what your parents do for you) if you do choose to confirm (in a later time of your life) by getting an i.d. or something you might think they do it with a concience knowledge of what they "buy" into. most people dont because they're not aware that this is a choice in the first place (seeing it as a mere "you have to do it")and how would you act different if you dont know? so to blame it completely just on the "individual" is not fair (in my opinion).and of course all that is done in purpose to keep us consuming,voting and stupid.(did anyone ever asked you if you want to be governed?) that is a complex issue and for me personaly totally new ground which iam trying to understand. the freeman movement, i mean.
    again (now follows a poor excuse;) if we could have a chat about this topic in german, i could express myself much better. you seem like someone who know's what he's talking about and i'd really like to have a discussion about it

  • D-K

    @Abfallmensch

    Well.. I know a bit of German but not nearly enough to discuss these matters using it.

    Even within a society, one chooses to adhere to certain rules and codes of conduct to gain certain results or achieve certain goals. Children are formed/raised to function as a small piece of that society in an attempt to not only sustain that society, but also have it progress scientifically as a collective.

    While I agree that infants are incapable of processing "non-conformity", it does not take long for a child to reason for himself, albeit still at an very primal level. A nice example of this would be the dreaded 'no' phase, which sets in when the child is about 2 years of age (in most cases). Society, while very helpful to the collective, creates a box. Thinking outside of the box is usually met with negative response, be it at the hands of ethics or morality, or simply societal standards and customs.

    In my eyes, the "individual" is a person capable of conscious choice, standing outside of society. Everyone within a society is not an individual, they are simply part of a collective. The governments are instruments to sustain our increasingly connected societies, as guidance is required. I feel I should add that

    The freeman philospohy seems anarchaic to me.. It's about reconstructing a society rather than detaching from it, and personally, I regard it as destructive rather than revolutionary.

    I'd go on for a bit, explaining in more detail, but it'll have to wait.. I'm late for work.

  • D-K

    Cut myself off there..

    "I feel I should add that... ..I'm not a fan of our current moral and ethical systems and subsequently the governments based on them.

  • chris

    that's probably unhealthy.

  • jabl

    Hate it! uhg im sad for them,people are so disconnected,i hope these people can learn to be themselves without this.

  • Frank

    I'm surprised that as soon as Nora, (I think), saw Mike's collection she didn't run screaming from the house right then. It was no surprise in the voiceover at the end that within a week she ended the 'relationship.'
    And that Davecat dude is just sad. I mean projecting love onto an inanimate THING. I have no problem with people who want to buy these as, (expensive), f—k toys but I just could not suspend disbelief and convince myself that one of these things was my 'girlfriend' and actually cared about me.

    as to yuk who commented:
    10/27/2009 at 12:34 Men can be freaks. Notice how no woman has a man version? Men are perverted and these guys are freaks that should be castrated.

    Women do have a version. There are a gazillion vibrators, dildoes, (so REALISTIC!), and 'eggs' out there for women. And "castrated" for WHAT? I'd point out that these guys are not out there trawling for young women or underaged girls. They have some means and they're trying to get their sex needs taken care of. The only twisted thing about this whole documentery is the ones who think they're making an emotional connection with these things.

  • someone

    Wow, very strange, somehow beautiful and very sad to me all at the same time. I struggle with lonliness and feel I'm getting to an age where it is find someone now or probably never. I don't know why no one feels chemistry with me when I have found it with them. I understand these men's motives but I couldn't have a doll replace what I truly want, human companionship, is that because I'm a woman? I wondered if they would show women and I wonder if they ever sell any dolls to women. I found this film entertaining and interesting. Would be interesting to see these men really try to date, see if it is more of an addiction or because they really can't find anyone.

  • canadian jason

    I can't completely but somewhat understand why these men gravitate towards these life like dolls. I am Bi-Polar and the anxiety I feel when alone is impossible to convey in words, it lierally hurts in my chest I get that hurt and lonely and the problem is that it can't be filled by just any woman it has to be love so at a certain poin I went years alone just because I refused to settle it had to be LOVE. and it is wierd how most women are wired because when you are commited in a serious or long term relationship I was desired and even approached by women and I would never cheat so I didn't. But once single the same women all of a sudden are not as interested as they were when I was taken?

    i don't think a doll would have helped me but I can understand where soe of them are coming from sometimes when you are alone you can exuberate a repelling form of energy and it makes you almost unaproachable maybe because of the desperation and despire its not a charming thing like maybe it is trying to hard or just so focused and introverted as opposed to when you have someone at home your priorities change and you are more free and no longer seeking so deperately.

    You really have to accept your situation and quit looking, then you fall over it by accident, I found.

  • Adam Ivester

    Oh my God! this freaks me out, how can they not be ashamed of this? That proves they are all mentally ill, normal people would be embarased. What a Sick Sad world.

  • Mike

    I had the same experience as you Jason.

    When I'm dating it's raining women all around.
    I was dating one lady then all these other ones come out of the woodwork and chase after me.

    Then when I'm single again, I'm a cold potato.

    Women are so strange.

  • Drake

    Some women above commented that they wouldn't want a doll because they prefer relationships.

    Why's that?

    2 reasons women get into relationships with men rather than get a doll is:

    1. to take the guys money: "buy me this and that, if you love me"
    and once they marry the puppet they make a ton of money in the divorce
    and to take the guy's house that he paid for.

    2. women love to control men. It makes them feel powerful.
    A doll would be too boring for a woman because she can't control the doll
    and can't hurts it's feelings or mess up it's mind.

    The woman's strategy is to be nice to attract,
    then gradually destroy the guy's ability to think for himself by destroying his self esteem
    so she can take all his money or his house.
    That's why women don't want a doll; it's too boring for them.

    Men are happy with dolls because we don't need to control other people's minds.
    We are happy to just let women be.
    All these men want is a woman to care for.
    Hence, Men are nice; women are evil.

  • Petro

    Who are women to judge us?

    Most women have thousands of $ in shoes that they worship more than people.

  • D-K

    @Petro: "Most women have thousands of $ in shoes that they worship more than people"

    This statement is monsteribly fallacious. Not only does the syntax falsely indicate that you are stating a fact, it also lacks any specifity and cannot be taken at face value. You also have a bunch of semantically illogical atrocities hiding in that single sentence.

    @Drake:

    Not unlike a certain other "Drake equation" what you try to pass off as definative conclusions are in fact immeasruable amounts of variables. You are wrong.

  • Petro

    Dk I can't make any sense of what you are saying.
    You must be an intellectual acamademic.
    Try speaking like a regular human bean.
    At least dolls don't try to mess our brains with intellectual mumbo jumbo that has no sense to it.
    Shoes and dolls don't talk. It's all the same.

  • Bert

    Women are on diets these days.
    They don't eat, the dolls don't eat, it's all the same to me.

  • Drake

    Well that's a perfect example of how women psychoanalyse everything men say to shreds.

    A man give a rose to a woman because it's beautiful.
    Then the woman will psychoanalyse this gesture so much that the guy doesn't bother giving any more flowers.

    They want our opinions so long as we repeat word for word what they say in agreement.

    Or worse you have to be able to mind read them in agreement.

    If you give a different opinion the women go into melt down fits of rage.

    I don't normally nitpick but you have spelling mistakes in your rant against my post Ha Ha !

  • Drake

    If they can make these dolls with a sense of humor then extinction is on it's way.

  • Bobby

    These guys are crazy to spend that much money.
    I just bought a Barbie at Wallmart.
    She goes everywhere I go.
    I put her in my briefcase, my lunch box, or in my jacket pocket.
    I never feel alone.
    And yes I sleep with her.
    I m not a pedofiler because Barbie is 51 years old.
    We even visited the beach.
    She;s always polite and reserved. I like that in a woman.

  • Bert

    A lot of my married male friends call me to complain.
    They feel like pets. They can't decide anything without their wife's permission.
    Do I want to get married after hearing all that.
    No wonder people are buying dolls.
    I'm not going to get married.

  • D-K

    @Petro:

    While I chuckled trying to emulate a human bean, I'll simplefy: You can't say "most women" without further specifying which women you are referring to. The phrase "most women" would indicate that a large share of the entire global female populace spends several 1000$ on shoes.

    You cannot possibly make that assumption without concrete data. You are probably projecting some of your own experiences and passing them off as fact. The whole "that they worship more than people" furthers this notion.

    In simple terms, you're spouting nonsense.

    @Drake:

    I see my spelling mistakes. Woe is me.

    ..

    Masterful deflection, really.

  • Jeff

    My uncle was never allowed to have a workshop in his basement.
    It would have made him so happy to have one so he could have a hobby.
    But my aunt wouldn't let him; she doesn't want him to feel fullfiled.
    He's only allowed to watch tv or read the newspaper.
    How sad.

  • Petro

    Whats weirder than owning a doll is getting breast implants in your own body.
    No one says that's sick and sad but it is.

  • Derek

    I own a house - fully paid for.
    DO you think I'll risk getting married and lose my house and all my money in a divorce?
    Heck no.

  • Dot

    lol @ Derek

    You know there's such a thing called a prenup in existence. But to each his own, right? You have a skewed view of women and that's ok too I guess. Not all women are after your money, but they would be happy to have a man whose house is fully paid for. Maybe you should get a woman who also has her own house so she doesn't seem a threat to you. Why am I even advising you? I think your life is ok, just don't get married. I think a couple of women will dodge a bullet if you stay out of marriage, especially since you already anticipate grave dangers.

  • Derek

    Thanks for the advice Dot, but in my jurisdiction prenups have no legal value on the house.
    It is considered the matrimonial home and in the event of a divorce even after just a month, the wife gets half of the value of the house. That's the law.
    Some women have been known to call the cops, say the husband threatned to kill her, the guy is in jail, she gets a restraining order and he can't go back to his own house,
    she can live there and legally he's still responsible for paying the municipal taxes and utility bills.
    She can even move in her boyfriend and the husband who owned the houses looses everything.
    As some guy said above, it's called social engineering.
    If prenups were of legal value, I wouldn't worry about losing my house in the event of a marriage-divorce.
    It might be a good laugh to read this but I feel for the guys above who wrote about the financial devastion of getting married.

  • Dot

    @Derek

    I'm sorry you feel so negatively about marriage, and you feel that you might be the victim of a dangerous and devious evil woman. Make sure you find out what the law says about how long a woman can live in your house and it's considered a marriage, so that you can keep kicking her out before that time accumilates. Good luck in life.

  • D-K

    Or you can do what I do, set up your own paperwork. Swing by a notary and have your expectations, agreements and requirements set in stone.

    Dispute over monetary resources is still the #1 marriage killer, my suggestion is to hammer that one out right away. In my country, you can "customise" certain aspects of the institution of marriage to fit your personal philosophy, I'm sure most developed nations allow such freedom.

    If you'd rather just blame women and generalize the hell out of an entire sub-species, that's fine too. Word to the wise, suspicions and distrust make for lousy date conversation.

  • Derek

    The law here is set in stone.
    Day one of marriage the house is split both ways.
    If the guy bought the house before meeting his wife and the mortgage is in his name, he will be forced to continue paying it and taxes and utilities while she lives in the house.
    Other guys above wrote about financial hardship from divorce above are likely in other jurisdictions.
    When the law put man and woman on an equal footing, then you can judge me. You can't have an equal marriage when the law goes against the man.

  • Derek

    Dot: My Dad (an elderly widower) had a woman who befriended him and emptied his bank account, so I know what I'm talking about.

  • Dot

    @Derek

    The men I have come across in my life have done terrible things. They have been completely useless in the household. Drinking and getting extra families on the side and the first wife has to support her own family, and the extra families. One woman who did this even had her had chopped off by the very same husband who was leeching on her. Some other women have taken care of husbands in this way have had these same men go shopping for HIV and bring it back home to kill the woman.

    I am sorry your father was victimized, and if he was a gay men he would have been victimized by a younger gay man who wanted money form an easy victim (older people fall pray much more to scammers than younger people). So Derek, would it be fair for me to throw you in the same category as the bad men I have previously described? Do you go shopping for diseases? Do you depend on your wife? Just as I am paranoid about getting married in my home country because of the bad circumstances facing women, so are you about the laws in the place where you live. You shall remain single not because you couldn't find an honest woman, but because you fear the worst. So shall I.

    No need for either of us, you or I, to brand the other sex as dangerous and not worth anyone's time. I found other things to do that give me happiness, marriage is not one of them. I hope you find your thing.

  • Bob Barker

    What a sad documentary, a bit creepy too, but I feel sorry for those guys :( most of them have some obvious psychological issues. Oh well, at least some of them are semi-happy

  • A Concerned Reader

    Life Observer is the reason why Europeans hate Americans - Blantantly no education and no evidence either. STD's are to be put in the same bracket as killing people/murder? Just remember people read this stuff, there are other ways to embarass yourself without showing yourself to be an ignorant, stupid arsehole.

  • Elena

    Can you imagine women having these dolls? What about role reversal? Male dolls with different sizes of bodies, genitalia, pubic hair, different racial types etc.

    They seem to appeal to men because society has conditioned us to feel that women are objects which exist for the gratification of men. Women are not respected as individuals in their own right. We are expected to conform to the wishes and needs of men and make our own wishes and needs very small or even non-existent. Such is the misogynistic world we live in.

    In such a world, fuelled by pornography, the objectification of women and subordination of our needs to those of men, it can be difficult for men to discover that women are individuals in their own right, with freedom of speech, choice and different opinions. After all, if you are conditioned to believe that women should be there for you satisfying your every need morning noon and night and not having any needs of their own, then a real woman, read a real live human being, could be challenging.

    Women have been enslaved by men and these dolls are the perfect slaves. They are obedient and they obey master's orders, having no identity or will of their own.

    While it might be attractive to have a slave on tap, it is surely not very healthy and not the way we are supposed to live as human beings on this earth.

  • Davotchka

    Definitely agree with Elena.
    And I do not feel myself in competitions with these dolls at all. I don't even consider myself in competition with real women.

    But these guys... there's a reason no one wants them and why they prefer dolls... and it what Elena said and more.

    They can keep their dolls. And why were all these men so like.... unusually close to their parents, especially mom?

  • Jane

    You can't get "love and companionship" from a doll. It makes no sense. It's like living with a dead body. The first guy says his Dad is "creeped out" by dolls. To be honest I'm not surprised. It's not exactly the dream partner for your son is it! Also, imagine telling friends, family and neighbours that "my son sleeps with a doll". Pretty embarrassing I would think!

    The first guy says that he can't stand being "lonely" but what is more lonely than living with a doll. He says that the doll is an "anchor" for him and he can depend on her. But, she is not real, she is plastic, an inanimate object, a figment of his imagination. No money cannot buy you love in the shape of a dead doll. They might look real and you might be able to have sex with them, but they are not real and it is all a fantasy world. They are dead pieces of plastic not real live human beings. You can't say things like "so we've got the house to ourselves now". Get real!!!

    The first guy appears to treat his doll with kindness and respect and feels that he is "in love with her". I'm sure many women out there would love to be treated with the same degree of adoration and respect and I feel sure that he could find a real live decent woman to lavish his affection and attention on if only he tried. But first he'd have to give up the doll.

    Some men might be fed up with women, having been let down (of course many of us women have also been let down by men). However, are dolls a realistic option? I'm sure most of these guys could get partners if they wanted to, but of course now that would be difficult as they are already "in committed relationships with their dolls".

    I suspect that for some men dolls are quite convenient - sex on tap, perfect bodies, no ageing sagging bodies, no infidelity or diseases (unless the doll repair man has a go), no nagging, no food bills, no need to enquire "was it good for you? did you come?" The doll is entirely there for his convenience, as and when and like a slave (as Elena says above). The doll will never go off you, criticise you, cheat on you, judge you or even die (just need repairing now and then). The doll will not look at your body and think that you are too ugly/fat/thin/old/small etc.

    That's the good stuff maybe, but like porn it is all just fantasy and not real and surely we are meant to live in the real world aren't we? I'm surprised these guys are not embarrassed about what they are doing - I would be if it were me. "I can't get a real woman and so I went out and got a doll." OMGosh that is sad!

    While the first guy treats his fantasy woman with respect, one of the other guys appears to have more sinister feelings towards women - the one with 8 dolls. I do not feel that he respects women, he probably just wants them for sex and then throw them away. Hence the 8 different dolls thrown in various places around his house, his focus on their physical appearance, breasts etc. One could not say that he is in love with them, more like in lust and at his convenience. He would probably be the sort of guy who would enjoy strip clubs, porn and prostitutes (except that the dolls are cheaper for him and more convenient). For him those dolls are masturbation machines/shebots. There is no feeling involved. No wonder that woman left him.

    I think these dolls are symptomatic of problems in our society and in our world. These problems include:

    The ways men relate to women - as sex objects and slaves.

    The ways women and men relate - we all need to understand each other better and do better and

    The fact that people have given up trying. This is about apathy and hopelessness and yes it is sad!

  • cyborg

    Anyone here knows when dolls with some super AI going to be available?
    Preferably before December 21, 2012.
    :)

  • cyborg

    ...and some dolls are so gorgeous! Wow!

  • Bunny

    Many comments on the issues these men may or may not have...I'll skip over that.
    This was a strange documentary. As I watched it I felt oddly fascinated. I was honestly creeped out by how open Davecat was about kissing his doll. I personally don't view them as alternatives. They're toys, expensive toys. I believe these men have deluded themselves, the ones who treat them as real. The one with 8 dolls just...disturbed me greatly. I agree with another commenter...he seemed to have a sinister view on women, with how haphazardly he leaves them around. I was actually irritated at how he treated the dolls, yes they're dolls, but they're EXPENSIVE dolls. And he just...ugh, their make-up and clothing. I wanted to take them away and dress them properly!
    Anyways, wow I just went on a strange tangent and probably starting another one. As I was watching this it made me actually...kind of want one. I LOVED playing with barbies when I was younger, dressing them up, playing pretend, making them kiss each other. You know. What I'm trying to get at is I'd want one to dress up and put make up on and all that. Like life sized barbies! So yeah maybe I'm a little strange, but it's not like they'd be a part of my life or anything.
    I feel kind of strange saying I'd want one, considering I'm female myself and I wasn't talking about the male versions.

  • Scapegoat

    The human can and does form personal relationships with rocks in their pockets and plants in their house. Forming a relationship with an inanimate object isn't weird. In fact, for thousands of years the majority of the world's population has been forming a personal relationship with a figment of the vivid human imagination. And the psychological factors involved in the formation of the relationship is the same as that required to form a personal relationship with an inanimate object. Most of the people call the figment, "God." Weird implies extraordinarily uncommon. Nothing is weird about the human forming personal relationships with inanimate objects and figments of the imagination.

  • Armchair Shrink

    In order to overcome my initial visceral jaw-drop & revulsion reaction, I waited a week or so & watched this again. I also checked out the company's website & looked at other info re these dolls & their buyers. Although I've gained valuable insight into the motivations many owners express, I still have a problem with this.

    Many above mentioned being disturbed by the necrophilic overtones they got from these practices. that creeped me out too...BUT that was not the main problem I have.

    I'm seeing men with a pathological need to control every aspect of a female partner. The so-called partner is not only deathly silent & cold, she is utterly preserved, feels neither pain nor pleasure & is 100% manipulated by her owner. With a kidnapped or purchased (from a trafficker) sex slave,there's the risk that someone might hear her cries, that the authorities will be searching for her & that she might escape. She must be fed, clothed & have access to basic hygiene & grooming implements. All this demands something beyond forking over a credit card # & waiting for a crate to arrive. With a captive victim, the kidnapper always knows, deep down (no matter what he forces his captive to say or enact)that she finds him repulsive. These dolls are blank screens onto which any buyer can project his fantasies.

    While none of the men featured is ever going to make the cover of GQ,I've seen less physically attractive men with 'organic women'-many of them reasonably attractive. These men seem to want the kind of women that they have nothing to offer to: someone like a Victoria's Secret swimsuit model or a Playboy bunny. I wonder if, over time, these men's resentment of feeling rejected by attractive young 'organic women'(scary term, that one!)will compel them to act out is frightening, deviant & criminal ways. Consider that guy holed up in a hut in VA with his disturbing opinions about women & all those guns & that sword. Why drag out your gun collection in a doc about Real Dolls? Why the clean girls-filthy girls sex & violence paradigm? That guy was more than just creepy: he was frightening. I hope that the authorities in his region have seen this doc & are keeping one eye discreetly turned in his direction. One day, someone's very young teen daughter (a 'clean' girl) is going to disappear.

    These men are learning & using the dolls to reinforce dangerous & erroneous lessons about what a relationship is. Relationships involve at least one other person. They involve consideration, compromise, sharing, compassion, mutual respect & a host of other higher social qualities. You can't store a woman in a box in a garage or hook her up by the back of her neck in a closet, take her out when you're in the mood to get your freak on & call it a relationship. Relationships are not solely sexual: they involve bosses, employees, co-workers, colleagues, fellow students, relatives,neighbours & friends etc. Similar skills are required in each. Some are egalitarian, some are less so-but NONE gives 100% of the power to one person. Even military generals, police captains & other authority figures are limited in the abuses they can inflict & demands they can make on those they out-rank!

    These dolls give men a terrifying amt of control over an extremely realistic woman. You can bet that there are hundreds of guys out there living out their paedophilic & violent (domination/s&m -type) fantasies with these dolls; not just the more benign men (side from the gun guy) shown.

    Appreciating, collecting & feeling connected to inanimate objects is not unusual (as any collector will confirm.)When the item is an 'inorganic woman'(one body-type offered by Real Dolls is a flat-chested child-like girl!)used for sexual gratification like a 'real woman', something very problematic is happening. This is not the same as a stamp collection or Star Trek memorabilia collection.

  • gallagher

    women have been replacing men with altrnatives for years (dildo's and the rest)and it is seen as becoming sexually empowered where as men are ridiculed. sexism in its purist form.

  • sara

    I think it's..odd. but find nothing wrong with this. I dont quite understand why so many women are upset. These men arent saying "i cant find a women with big enough titts..or they arent skinny enough or tall enough"..they want someone to spend time with. and they feel the same way alot of us women do "i cant find a man cuz i have bad teeth bad skin..my body isnt good enough". and people can also make male dolls..

  • Persephone

    Just a few words on this: Reading through the comments, it's just incredible how many people on here are spouting off such ridiculous notions about women. Listen, I'm just as feminine as the next woman, and I barely spend $20 every THREE MONTHS on shoes. I don't play head games and I'm not after money.

    I think the main problem with the men in the film (and it appears, many of the men in the comments section) is that they just don't view women as people. They're viewed as some kind of "magical other," this unattainable goal that the dolls are meant to replace. They justify this by rattling off things like "women are just shallow money-grubbers," or whatever else will fit their schema.

    That said, I really, truly feel sorry for the English man and the man from VA. It seems like they've truly been dealt a bad hand in life and they never fully learned how to socialize properly. If the dolls alleviate the loneliness, well, fine. I can't fault them for trying to make themselves feel better. I STILL think it's unhealthy though, especially Davecat's situation. Holy c@#$, what issues that man has. He has to typify real women as "organic women," as if the doll is in any way a woman? That's SO far beyond healthy functioning. I mean, the man makes furries look totally mainstream.

  • D-K

    @persephone:

    Healthy functioning? Sexual deviation is nothing more than exploring one's sexual urges that lie outside of the 'traditional picture'. When one feels the need to deviate or otherwise chooses not to conform to the "mainstream-approved" version of sexuality, this does not automatically point to mental distress.

    Sexual desires cannot and should not be bound by socio-moral protocol just as much as 'true love' transcends genders, age and social status.

    You claim several people in this comment section "don't view women as people", perhaps you could elaborate and counterargue rather than simply condemn opinion while inserting a viewpoint on someone's else's behalf with zero knowledge of one's frame of reference.

    I'd also like to note that that very statement juxtaposes nicely to your judgement of "the men" in this comment section; "They justify this by rattling off things like “women are just shallow money-grubbers,” or whatever else will fit their schema"

    Meta-generalization, epic stuff..

  • D-K

    I'd also like to state that emotional or affectional feelings towards inanimate objects is quite common. Contrary to popular believe, "love", or an emotional connection, is not based on reciprocation.

    Whether an objects is inanimate or not, it bears no effect on hormone distribution. A nice example of mind over matter, if you ask me.

  • K-D

    Life Observer,
    You creep me out even more than the men who talk to,dress,kiss and do Gawd knows what else with their dolls.You truly get wayyyyyyyyyyyy off track.The strange and disturbing thing about the dolls is that these guys see them as mates,not just sex toys.GET IT?

  • D-K

    Just for clarification purposes, this K-D person is not me, nor does he/she speak on my behalf.

    @K-D:

    When one forms an emotional connection to a certain object, it becomes more than the sum of it's parts (to that person). You oversimplify.

  • K-D

    @scapegoat
    "The human can and does form personal relationships with rocks in their pockets and plants in their house. Forming a relationship with an inanimate object isn’t weird."
    A plant isn't inanimate.Forming a personal relationship with a rock IS weird if there are humans around to form relationships with instead.In Cast Away,do you think Tom Hanks character would have devised a "Wilson" to talk to if humans were around?Screwing the doll isn't weird,just like using a dildo isn't weird.BUT kissing the rubber tongued doll,setting them up for a Birthday party,telling it you'll miss her,asking the doll if she wants it harder baby,do you love me,if she's going to cum,was that good for you,are you tired now,shall we put your pajamas's on.....or whatever one sided deluded conversation goes on as though the doll had thought's and feelings IS NUTS!And the way the dolls are hung up on a chain by the neck just about put me right over the edge,reminded me of slabs of meat.Or,what some psychopathic killers have actually done to women.
    Jane.......very well said.

  • K-D

    @D-K,or shall I say "The all knowledgeable one"
    What the hell is hurde-behaviour..????????????
    Did you mean herd behavior?Sheesh.

  • D-K

    @K-D:

    I have no need for a title, if you wish to discuss matters with me you can simply adress me as D-K.

    Yes, I meant herd behaviour, I think it's strange you'd focus on a spelling mistake though. Especially considering I've posited quite a number of assertions one might feel interested to refute.

  • Chloe

    geeze get a dog or get a mail order bride...

  • Laura

    This is seriously horrible.

    But the guy who had the girlfriend and 8 dolls didn't seem that bad.

    The guys that had one or two and completely shut themselves off from the world have issues that they just choose not to overcome. Watching these men dress up their dolls and put makeup on them was disturbing to me as a girl. "Davecat" made it apparent he was dehumanizing women when he said things along the lines of women are disappointing creatures. Well damn, go out and date lots of women, you will eventually find one that satisfies all your needs.

    8 doll guy had the right idea that the dolls did not replace a real woman and they did not provide an emotional home.

    Some of these guys are sick and I legitimately hope they overcome it.

  • Wendy

    OK, I'm watching this again. The hang-glider guy ... he packs a purse for "Virginia" and yet somehow seems surprised about what she's carrying in it ... how very odd. Not bad, but certainly odd. I'm not sure I have a lot of room to talk. After all, I rely on cats for my emotional stability. But at least they carry on a better conversation than the dolls seem to. And they BLINK!!!

  • bob

    Very strange, but as long as they are not out there hurting people and animals, fine. I regard it as a very elaborate form of masturbation. A person who lives with mom and dad and can find $4000 for this is at a different level.

  • bob

    There is definitely something necrophilic about this. Has it occurred to these men that perhaps their problem with women is that they objectify women, and that has been the real turn off all along? One does not want a real woman in one's life just for sex, and as one gets older, the sex gets to be not all that important.

  • dave

    Is it really that hard to understand why men would want one of these dolls rather than the average American woman?

    If women can say that porn is adultery then why aren't these dolls considered real? The logic of women is illogic!

  • Alex

    Great Doc. Thanks... Cheers !

  • kacy

    the hang glider dude was actually the least creepy of them all. i think he can find someone. the rest of these guys have thier own odd logic to this O_o that gordon dude was the scariest though by far. "its a high form of masturbation but at the end of the day, its just a doll"

  • Lenna

    This is sad and pathetic on so many levels I can’t even start counting. It’s probably ok for these men to keep these dolls as sex toys, but other than that, any attempt to rationalize the relationship they form with them because of loneliness is totally preposterous. These dolls are sex toys. You may satisfy your agalmatophilia or necrophilia by having sex with an inanimate woman-like doll, but you can’t establish a relationship with a piece of plastic. Sex toys are sex toys and what tickles anyone’s fancy in the bedroom (as long as it does not harm others) is their own business. The idea of establishing a bond with a piece of plastic reveals a pathology underneath and it is not normal. I may be using a vibrator in the privacy of my bedroom but I will not take it to dinner with me or introduce it to my parents as their son in law. I mean, come on. Let’s not loose perspective.

    I strongly believe that people who view these dolls as anything other than pure sex toys need help, as they obviously have many issues that they need to resolve. This is so wrong on so many levels. Even the notion of the relationship that they seem to have in their head is so wrong, as no normal woman spends her day on the sofa with her legs spread open and her mouth open, with all the cliché connotations, ready to be manipulated or made to have sex at any given time. The feeling I get is that the perception they have of women is that they are just objects for sexual gratification: perfect, slim, young, big breasted, always available for sex, quiet. Yeah, this is exactly how a normal relationship works. But then again ooops! I forgot, you can’t have one with a doll. This is not a sexual deviation, sex dolls have been around for ages-this is pure pathology and inability to function in the real world.

  • ProudinUS

    Ah man,this ain't right.
    It was pretty sick to see these dudes talk about these things as if they were real.That one clown with the femie hair cut was pretty twisted. What are going through their minds when their with these dolls . I mean do they really think they can substitute plastic, or what ever sh^t those things are made of,for a real life piece of a$$?

    Hell, if they want a women I'll send my wife on over. Though I must admit she definately weighs more then a 100 pounds. I would'nt miss her a bit! As a matter of fact I'll load her fat a$$ in a box right now and ship her free of charge. I'll even pay for shipping and handeling!

  • Cynthia

    It is great for men that don't want to do anything but have sex, they don't have to do anything else in the relationship. They don't have to talk, compromise, listen, they can have sex when ever they want, they don't get nagged, they don't have to support a wife and they get to talk only about themselves. It is the perfect answer for HIV positive men, rapists,perverts and men that beat up women.

    I feel it would be a great program to give one to every sexual predator! I think they should make young looking dolls for pedaphiles and keep them off the streets, give them to all the angry men so they can beat them up, treat them like crap, it is going to keep these guys where they should be, at home. The male dolls are made for men, why not make them for women? Because some women want to be supported, don't really like sex or are in relationships for the wrong reasons. A very long time ago I did some sketches for life size dolls or the rich and famous, I thought it would be cool to have Brad Pitt in a tuxedo at my dining room table or some other hunk sitting on the sofa pretending to read a magazine. The sex part did not enter my mind, it was an art project, I made a prototype and drawings of many characters, I just didn't have the knowledge to get a prototype to look like the stars. Many years later, I saw the documentary and was amazed how many men have these sex dolls, it seems that it is the perfect relationship for them, they don't have to give anything of themselves, the doll is always happy to do what ever they want. I say live and let live,. I sure would be happy to have a great looking male doll that I didn't have to cook for, clean up after, do laundry etc. He would never cheat, or lie, and it is the ultimate safe sex. Times have changed, there are no real roles for men and women now,like before, we just don't need each other like we used to. We can all work, cook or go out, do our own laundry or pay someone to do it, so why not? I am waiting for the male doll, made for women, that will have pivoting hips, and will cuddle after... lol, I wont have to worry about him leaving the toilet seat up, burping or farting, scratching himself or anything else, lol...

  • ProudinUS

    @Cynthia

    The last part of your comment was pretty funny. But as far as making dolls for the cho mos (child molesters) that aint right. Those nasty f^%kers need to be in prison with a cell mate that violates his a$$ every night for the rest of his worthless life!

  • Yuck

    All of these guys in this doc (even the repairman) are pigs. They want a piece of meat to carry around and screw versus someone that would actually challenge them. Even the creepy guy with 3 semi-automatic guys in his bedroom compared women to chewed up meat. That's how they see women and its probably why they have never and will never have a partner. A partner is someone you mutually respect and if you have no respect for someone, they aren't going to want to screw you. I know this business of making dolls is employing people, so I wouldn't say it should be made illegal. But there is something wrong with you, if you are having sex with a lifeless body on your bed. It's not to the point of necrophilia but it's starting to get close. Even the guy at the end couldn't give up his dolls when he had a real woman in front of him because his fetish has taken over his life. These men are addicted to a fetish (having sex with inanimate objects) and they could never give that up. It's sad that they gave up on a real connection.

  • 2cents

    Well, I read the individual comments, done some research, talked to one of the individuals before I came up with my own opinion on the matter. Now when I first saw this, I was very intrigued. I never knew anyone to actually carry out these type of "relationships." I stumbled upon this by accident because I actually found Davecat to be quite attractive and I do mean VERY.

    Mmm-hmm... yep (blush) - only to become confused that he's "married" to plastic. Damn.. *sigh* Anyways...

    Feel bad for them?...meh. Of course these men win despite their "issues" of being "emotionally unavailable" I can't help, but feel how gimmicky this whole thing is. I love how they portray the love and availability of these dolls they can't find in others - thanks to the manufacturer "personal touches" *sarcasm* Watch these people see the dough rolling in from the curious.

    This was a great recipe to attract a large fan base. Who doesn't love the occasional eccentric/(fill in the blank) type people - especially if they play aloof AND fulfilled. You get a lot of women and men who will run after these people because they want to "rescue" them and show them the "love" they never had OR purchase these dolls because others found true "happiness". Mmmm.

    *NOTE to the lady who commented it only being for men: There are dolls for women too.

    Is this really all that UN-usual? Lets look at fake va-inas and dil-os *I'm trying not to offend anyone* I can see these "dolls" being a more intimate extension of those toys.

    In my opinion and conclusion, I don't think these men are NEARLY as happy and committed to these lifeless dolls. I don't care what they say to the contrary. Like I said before, due to my research, I do believe Davecat is doing mostly promotions. *Sorry Davecat, I'm just being honest* I wouldn't be surprised if these dolls were just lying around because they are so big, heavy and easily accessible for sex NOT because they want to "include" these dolls in their activities. Well.. okay... of course for sex, but nothing else!

    The kissing, the "I love you's", the supposed closeness, in my opinion, is hogwash.

  • POZZIMYSTIC

    no std's, no headaches, no bitching, no breakups....

  • TheRealMax

    Well its just lumps of silicone. Just like my RX8 is a lump of metal.
    In 100 years few people will give a hoot.
    Benign is the only word that springs to mind.

  • Epicurean_Logic

    You really are a clown. If you are married and talking about your wife like that you deserve to be beaten to within an inch of your life. If you are just playing the big man then grow up, you're not funny and are giving us men a bad name.

    In either case you deserve a good thrashing.

  • now_we_know

    You are wrong - There is now a male pill and vasectomys are very low risk these days, as well as reversible. Thanks to modern medicine, men *can* take birth control into their own hands.Furthermore, you contradict yourself over and over in your post. Rather than b****ing, would you care to propose solutions or illustrate your ideal utopian world for us?First of all, men die in the workplace more often than women do because men are more likely to be doing physical labour than women are. This is not because of feminism - this is because of physical differences between men and women, hormonal differences that make men more likely to take on risky jobs (this is why more men gamble and do things like investing and day trading), and the fact that in male-dominated fields, a woman is often seen as distracting to productivity, a financial risk (risk of sexual harrassment --> suing) and the woman alone might feel too uncomfortable to even apply. Do not blame this on feminism or mens' rights. It is a much bigger issue.Even though you are against feminism and the idea that men should "buy" their women, you assert that every male who dies as part of his job is "working to support his family." These days, most college students are women, and thanks to feminism, many, many women are making a decent salary on their own. If you don't want to be the sole provider for your family, find an educated women (it won't be that hard) and don't have children - or if you do, propose to your wife that you be the stay-at-home parent. A lot of men are doing it these days. Would that make you feel equal, or would you rage at how much less of a man that makes you, and how evil your wife is for fully controlling the money when she is working and you are not?Women CONTROL the wealth? Wtf? Can you please provide some actual evidence of this? As well as proof that MORE qualified men are passed over for jobs in favor of women? Suicide...BIG BIG F***ING ISSUE DUDE. Why blame it on feminism? Feminists aren't responsible for hormonal imbalances that cause depression. Feminists aren't responsible for the centuries-old idea that men should be stoic and "tough" and hold in their emotions rather than talk about it and relieve the pressure. Rather, this would go into the category of "traditional gender roles" from a time before feminism let us women vote and wear pants and crap.Additionally, statistics show that a huge portion of suicides amongst male teenagers have to do with homosexuality and bullying. Are you going to blame feminism for the vilification of homosexuals, fat kids, kids with acne, lisps, learning disabilities, etc?Finally, while divorce courts are sometimes unfair to men in terms of alimony and visitation rights, it is very rare that a man is banned from seeing his children unless he was physically abusive or on drugs or something. Beyond that, it takes two people to have a child. I really hope you are not proposing that since the man no longer loves the woman, he should be able to wash his hands of all responsibility? Utter BS. Children are expensive and I've never seen a single mother that was prospering because of alimony.In short, you are full of s***. All I can do is shake my head in pity at people who go through life raging at half the population. We may have slight hormonal differences, but we are human beings just like you and it's not like we turn into evil conniving monsters when our tits start to grow in at puberty. Get a grip.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    Brilliant! great post!

    sorry it had to be moderated. it goes in automatically when there are curse words...

  • Guest

    =======

  • AlekNovy

    First of all, men die in the workplace more often than women do because men are more likely to be doing physical labour than women are. This is not because of feminism - this is because of physical differences between men and women, hormonal differences that make men more likely to take on risky jobs (this is why more men gamble and do things like investing and day trading)

    Actually, the reason men take on risky jobs is to make more money, and they try to make more money in order to attract women's respect. Because a man that doesn't earn enough is seen as a loser, as an object not even worth being treated as a human being.

    Ponder me this. If it was hormones that leads men to risky jobs? Then why don't we see handsome guys in those risky professions. Men who can attract women without money (due to physical looks), don't take risks, because they don't have to.

    Suicide...BIG BIG F***ING ISSUE DUDE. Why blame it on feminism? Feminists aren't responsible for hormonal imbalances that cause depression. Feminists aren't responsible for the centuries-old idea that men should be stoic and "tough" and hold in their emotions rather than talk about it and relieve the pressure. Rather, this would go into the category of "traditional gender roles" from a time before feminism let us women vote and wear pants and crap.

    Really... So if its the traditional male role to blame, can you explain to me why this is a new phenomenon? Back in the oldie traditional days men and women were roughly equal in suicides...

    Suicide is the second most common way for a man between the ages of 15 and 34 to die. It is outstripped, only just, by road deaths.

    Between 1970 and 1998, the rate more than doubled.

    Which movement can you think of that coincided with this time period? I can think of one, which *possibly* could’ve affected the mental health of men… It begins with F.

    These days, most college students are women, and thanks to feminism, many, many women are making a decent salary on their own.

    And they whine about the "lack of men". Despite now women making more than men (in the young generation women now out-earn men 117%)... They still refuse to be with a man who earns less. The percentage of single people is increasing as columns by women ranting about the lack of men are becoming viral. And what is this "lack of men"? Its a lack of men who earn more than she does.

    Studies on this show that men prefer and like women who earn more. Its women who discriminate against men with lower earning potential.

    In fact, the more women earn, the more they demand EVEN HIGHER earning men. Its women who overwhelmingly insist on that dynamic, not men.

    Finally, while divorce courts are sometimes unfair to men in terms of alimony and visitation rights, it is very rare that a man is banned from seeing his children unless he was physically abusive or on drugs or something.

    That's an absolute LIE. Feminists have worked hard to make anti-male laws - without apology.

    For example, feminists have CHANGED THE LAWS so that there is NO PROOF required that a man is what she says he is.

    She can say that he's an alcoholic who was verbally abusive, and he is banned from seeing the children without ANY EVIDENCE required. He might not have drank a drop of alcohol in his life... doesn't matter. In some cases they've even made it so that the CHILDREN have no say so. The children beg to be with their father, say the mom is abusive, yet she still gets custody.

    Feminists pass laws that make it illegal to question women. They just now made accusations of sexual harassment and assault to no longer require preponderance of evidence.

    This means a woman can simply point at a guy, say he raped her, and goes to jail, with no SUBSTANTIAL evidence required that he did. (he just needs to have been in the same building where she was for example)

    Feminists have successfully broken the cornerstone of western law "innocent until proven guilty"... If the accuser is a woman, its not "guilty until proven innocent".

    SECONDLY: As it relates to family law. Courts do NOT persecute women who break arrangements. That means she can simply run to a different state and not let see him see his kids, even though the court says he should. And there's nothing he can do about it.

  • AlekNovy

    From a news report:

    In the early morning hours of Jan. 7, 43-year-old Derrick K. Miller walked up to a security guard at the entrance to the San Diego Courthouse, where a family court had recently ruled against him on overdue child support.

    Clutching court papers in one hand, he drew out a gun with the other. Declaring: "You did this to me," he fatally shot himself through the skull.

    you read about Warren Gilbert who died of carbon monoxide poisoning, clutching a letter from the Child Protective Service. Or Martin Romanchick the New York City police officer who hanged himself after being denied access due to charges brought by his ex-wife, which the court found to be frivolous.

    Or Darrin White, a Canadian who hanged himself after being denied access because he could not pay child support that was twice his take-home pay. His 14-year-old daughter wrote a letter to the Canadian prime minister in which she pointed to "the frustration and hopelessness caused in dealing with Canada's family justice system" as the "biggest factor" in her father's death.

  • AaRrIiCc

    Actually a sad doc. These people won't know real connection with a mate and that is too bad. Yeah they think they are in love and everything that they believe a real relationship is, but its still a doll. I see their social and emotional issues and i get it, i see why they have them. but its still too bad, they are missing out.

  • 0zyxcba1

    @ AaRrIiC

    Yes, AaRrIiC, it is sad.

    And I can tell from the tone of your remark that your only concern is for these lonely souls.

    I am also struck by the fact that, unlike so many others, you are not being in the least bit condescending.

    Your sincerity reeks.

  • Guest

    You go, girl! Killer rebuttal!

  • 9977

    you just feel so sad why you just love a doll its o.k my friend one day you just search a nice woman to your life so if you like.

  • http://twitter.com/Nyce1 Nyce 1

    a relationship with a doll is not a relationship. You are only relating to yourself.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_VGOCJIGSL52Y3ANKIFHTCDDB6I Rebecca

    I think you see the world in a twisted way. you blame women for problems that are brought on by the individual. this really made me laugh -Men have NO equal means of contraceptive (no male "pill"). why wouldn't you just put on a condom?
    I hate gender roles a lot, but what i hate more is people who think that they are special enough to be targeted. the reality is that nbobody cares enough. stop thinking you are special. stop victimizing yourself. And to all the people out there that think good or evil is unique to a certain group, WAKE UP, everyone on this planet has good and bad in them! You tell all the evil things women do, men are just as bad! white people do bad things, black people do bad things, men do bad things, women do bad things, kids do bad things, elderly people do bad things, christians do bad things, muslims do bad things, democrats do bad things, republicans do bad things. What you need to do is aknowledge that nobody is exempt from evil and stop playing the game of who is worse because no one group is. it is the idividual that does evil and you try to paint people in that group with the same brush.

  • Guest

    Missing out huh, that annoys me... What makes you think these people did'nt have "relationships" with people before they had dolls? I admit that some of them might have not have but "missing out" suggests that someone has never had a real relationship but you do not know these guys...

    Nuns stay single, does that mean that they are "missing out"? (I also hear that monks are male nuns).

    People can stay single for a lifestyle & not "miss out". That kind of talk is what lead to people feeling hard pressed to find someone because they feel they are "missing out".

    And why can't a person think of a doll as a mate? How many people (mostly women) grow up & still buy dolls & stuff animals & cuddle with them, give them names & treat them like they are friends althogh they are toys?

    It's sad really... Too many people think that if a person is not in a relationship that they are "missing out" but all that does is lead to depression & a deeper feeling of lonliness (I been there, I admit it).

    You are right, it's just a doll but that does'nt mean a person can't think of it as a relationship. As mentioned above, women get stuffed animals & dolls in their adult years & yet when men get these "type of dolls", we get judged by some...

    Sorry if I seem a little hard on you. I admit you seem sincere but your "missing out" comment is what fired me up but I feel that I had to let that out for you & everyone...

  • Orfkip

    I've been trying to improve myself for years to be worthy for a girl to have sex with, but I failed. I tried to be worthy to be in a relation which also failed. So now I live with my life-size doll which I am attached to. She is not used for sex, she is my companion which I can hug and hold in my arms. Still the fight goes on to find a girl to have sex with. But if you are not able to get in a relation or be able to beat and outsmart feminism, then there is no room for you in the gene pool, that also goes for me. Only the strongest will survive, those who fail to adapt to the complexity of a modern society will die. If you plan to have a partner you have to aim for perfection, which these guys in the documentary fail at.

  • His Forever

    Wow, Orf! I think you're serious. If no sex is involved, a dog is much more of a companion than a doll. Get a lab that will love you unconditionally until the day it (or you) dies, and if you go first, she'll greive for you! It's true. Get a female dog as I've read in dog books that female dogs take to men more easily and male dogs take to women more easily. Loose the doll.

  • 0zyxcba1

    @ Orfkipstick
    "I've been trying to improve myself for years to be worthy for a girl
    to have sex with, but I failed."

    Fault lies not with you, but with the girls. No consolation, I know.
    But hang in there.

    Ignore C_and_N(below).

    C_and_N is against all sex outside marriage('Christian' marriage). C_and_N thinks that when you finally do find someone, you should forego all sexual contact until you are married(i.e., no sex with your girlfriend, when finally you do find a girlfriend).

    Furthermore, C_and_N believes(strike that, KNOWS ? through 'faith') that your sexual orientation, your primal urge to mate, is not a sexual orientation, at all.

    C_and_N KNOWS that there is no such thing as 'sexual orientation',
    just 'Lifestyle', a term used in advertising beginning in 1961 to market products targeted at consumers based upon age and personality types.

    (Lifestyle marketing was the brainchild of Daniel Yankrlovich of DYG, Inc., a market research firm, tracking social trends.)

    C_and_N KNOWS that the innermost core of what you are, the innermost core of your being, is... guess what...

    'Lifestyle'.

    And, what is more, C_and_N KNOWS that you were not born 'that way'. No! C_and_N KNOWS that you CHOSE 'The Straight Lifestyle'. C_and_N KNOWS that you have it within your power to CHOOSE 'The Gay Lifestyle'.

    Whatever you do, @Orfkipstick, do not(repeat: not) CHOOSE to be gay. C_and_N would urge you stay with your CHOICE of 'The Straight Lifestyle'.

    C_and_N would urge you not to CHOOSE 'The Gay Lifestyle' because to do so would be sinful, consigning you from Everlasting to Everlasting to the bottomless pit of Hell where you will burn, never-to-be-consumed, in a state of unspeakable agony at the liege of an All Merciful God, and his rat-ass son.

    So, whatever you do, @Orfkipstick, stay with your CHOICE of 'The Straight Lifestyle', and when, finally, you do 'strike gold', just let it slip through your fingers.

    0z

    P.S.:
    This post is dedicated to C_and_N.

  • His Forever

    Oz: You're bipolar, I'm quite sure. I just thought it utterly sad he has a doll for his only companionship (assumed). Get something living (like a dog or cat), at least in addition to the doll.

  • 0zyxcba1

    @ C_and_N
    "You're bipolar, I'm quite sure..."

    You are not "quite sure" of anything. You just think you are.

    "...blah, blah, blah... If no sex is involved... blah, blah, blah"

    If there's one thing I will not abide, it is a double-standard LIAR.

    oz

  • 0zyxcba1

    @ C_and_N
    True or False:

    You are against all sex outside marriage('Christian' marriage).

    You think that if @Orfkipstick finally does find someone, he should forego all sexual contact until he marries(i.e., no sex
    with his girlfriend, if he finally finds one).

    You believe(strike that, KNOW ? through 'faith') that his sexual orientation, his primal urge to mate, is not a sexual orientation, at all.

    You KNOW that there is no such thing as 'sexual orientation', just 'Lifestyle'.

    You KNOW that the innermost core of @Orfkipstick, the innermost core of his being, is... 'Lifestyle'.

    You KNOW that @Orfkipstick was not born 'that way'. No!
    You KNOW that @Orfkipstick CHOSE 'The Straight Lifestyle'.

    You KNOW that @Orfkipstick has it within his power to CHOOSE 'The Gay Lifestyle'.

    You would urge @Orfkipstick not(repeat: not) to CHOOSE to be
    gay.

    You would urge @Orfkipstick to stay with his straight 'Lifestyle'. CHOICE.

    You would urge @Orfkipstick not to CHOOSE 'The Gay Lifestyle' because to do so would be sinful, consigning @Orfkipstick, from Everlasting to Everlasting, to the bottomless pit of Hell, where @Orfkipstick would burn, never-to-be-consumed, in a state of unspeakable agony at the liege of an All Merciful God, and his rat-ass son.

    You would urge @Orfkipstick, at all cost, to stay with his CHOICE of 'The Straight Lifestyle',

    You would urge @Orfkipstick, if and when he finally does 'strike gold' to just let it slip through his fingers(unless, of course, the 'gold' he strikes thinks, and acts, just like you!).

    Right?!

    True or False.

    0z

  • His Forever

    waiting patiently for your depressant phase where you stop being such a cyberbully and just lay on the couch all day and eat chocolates and complain that it's all your boyfriend's fault!

  • His Forever

    Ozyxcba1: You're vulgar and rude. I will not justify your overposting hateful Christian-bashing with a "true" or "false".

  • 0zyxcba1

    @ C_and_N
    "I will not justify your overposting hateful Christian-bashing with a "true" or "false"

    I knew you would find some way to wiggle out of my "true" or "false" challenge.

    To do so under the pretext that it is beneath you due to my 'vulgarity', is to be expected from vulgarity itself.
    (Quite unimaginative of you, too ? but as expected.)

    0z

    P.S.:
    It is not possible to 'overpost' truth.
    And, in any case, I am not quite so much "Christian-bashing" as I am 'C_and_N-bashing', richly deserved, you hateful homophobe.

  • Achems_Razor

    Actually Charles is quite kinky, prays before sex, wants his gods in his bed when performing sex, menage a' trios" anyone? (LOL)

  • Achems_Razor

    Good grief!! Charles. are you serious?? There are laws! I think?
    There was a doc about that stuff here on TDF something about a horse.

  • 0zyxcba1

    @ Achems_Razor, get the popcorn out ? there's likely more to follow! (lol)

    0z

  • Joe_NYC

    Yikes! Charles!

  • His Forever

    What? The guy's in a platonic relationship with a big doll.

    Mr. Razor, that comment was super innocent. You guys are a bit scary sometimes. A dog will love you more than your own mother sometimes. You must have misread my post.

  • Achems_Razor

    Scary?...Well you know Charles, one thing can lead to another(LOL)

    Especially when you said "Orf" Should never mention animals on a doc pertaining to sex. Right away made me think of illegal farm animal thingy's if you know what I mean, especially when you seemed so gung-ho about it. Tsk, Tsk.

  • Guest

    I gave my beauty and my youth to men. I am going to give my wisdom and experience to animals.
    Brigitte Bardot
    az

  • https://www.facebook.com/AleXZanthiasFavDocs XZanthia

    People are interesting. with a brain our size and the complexity of our society with the restrictions on our animistic side, what you you expect?
    I can see that a object or a doll could be better then the inconsistently of a human relationship to some people.
    People replace lovers and companionship with pets, children, hobbies, work and much more and this is not looked at as to strange.
    The human animal in its desire for physical and emotional satisfaction has taken objectfileism and masturbation to the next level.
    More power to them.

  • http://www.facebook.com/ZenEvolution Clifton Warren

    I couldn't agree more! Human behavior is simply fascinating at a very complex level. We are in constant duality with how we think others see us and how we see ourselves, reflecting society as it's being presented to us. To understand these neural pathways being written and altered in the brain is to better control our own mental clarity.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Natalia-Fateyeva/605447413 Natalia Fateyeva

    HAHAHA, riiight, blame feminism and "modern society" for you being a pathetic weak looser!! how convinient!..again, you NEED HELP, professional help of a psychologist.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Natalia-Fateyeva/605447413 Natalia Fateyeva

    That goes for you too, stop blaming women, society and whatever else for your failure and cowardness! instead of spending thousands on dolls, get help at a mental institution. Having "a relationship" with a doll is having a realtioship with YOURSELF, this is NARCISSISM in a severe form, GET HELP!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Natalia-Fateyeva/605447413 Natalia Fateyeva

    ..no emotional connection, no reciprocation, no human warmth, no conevrsations, no hearbeat, no real love, no real life, NOBODY who cares about you, NOBODY thiking about to, nobody laughing with you..should I go on?..because I can..and for long!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Natalia-Fateyeva/605447413 Natalia Fateyeva

    hahaha, cry me a river!:) while whining is ofocurse VERY MANLY, after centures of women being deprived of basic civil right, access to education, having been abused mentally and physically, you dare to whine?
    p.s."..worthy ones are taken before they are 25", a bit bitter about being late for the party,are we?:P although,I don't think any one would go for a whiney weak looser like you even if the women to men ratio on the plante was 3:1..sooo don't blame the odds:P

  • Tatu Taivainen

    C_and_N and 0zyxcba1, you are both idiots. C's an idiot for being an intolerant c*** that does not appreciate other people's feelings, whether they be directed towards a doll, another man or whatever the people in question prefer. If somebody wants to f*** a doll, what harm does it cause you and why do you give a s*** if you think they are so pathetic. I have respect for your Christian beliefs, but you have to understand that you, too have to respect other people.

    0, don't insult people. Reason with them. Really, you have no manners, and come off as an arrogant a**hole.

    Natalia, don't call people losers. To put it in your perspective (and this is not the whole thing about dolls), think of it as glorified masturbation. Do you think that people who masturbate are losers? Would a woman having a dildo be pathetic? If it is not, logically a man having an artificial vagina would not be pathetic, either. Otherwise it would be sexist, and that is not nice. You call it narcissism. What is wrong with narcissism. You yourself should logically be the most important person in the world to you. These guys having dolls does not make them losers. Them living with their parents kind of does, yes, but that is not my point.

    Orfkip, don't blame feminism. It may or may not be feminism's "fault" but equality is awesome and a thing everyone should fight for. Would it be fair if women would just have to "like" you if you want it. You have to work for a relationship to happen, women do too. I do, however, think that it is fantastic you keep trying for a girlfriend. There is nothing wrong with having a doll.

    XZanthia and Clifton Warren, you are cool, keep being interested in things and being generally awesome.

  • POZZIMYSTIC

    some people have nothing else: innocent fun, as far as I am concerned* *albeit a little creepy

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_JNIWLD2N7KE6YWLCZBXZ5EC3RQ Yusiley S

    A bandage on a gunshot wound.... that's what this doc should've been called. Dolls wouldn't provide that deep needed social connection these men really need. Humans are social creatures they need interaction and socialization from other social beings, whether from other humans or species. If there ever comes the time I lose my husband... I wouldn't bother with a doll. I save the money and buy me a Great Dane or one of those cute, intelligent robots from Japan.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000426049648 Zabrina Garcia

    Sooo....This guy that repairs these dolls has had sex with some of them? I bet if Davecat found out that guy had sex with his doll he would freak out! These people trust him to take care for something they care about and think of as a loved one and then he goes and has sex with their belongings with out them knowing. That seems wrong to me and I wonder if he lost some clients because of this Doc.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000466830958 Michael Hughes

    These men are doing no one any harm of course. But to devote this kind of time to an inanimate object reveals a high degree of social inadequacy. Entertaining documentary nevertheless that should convince you that human proclivities can take on many different forms. Very revealing in an age that brings communication to unprecedented levels that loneliness can drive some people to this.

  • Orfkip

    I've recently has sex with an escort girl and it brought me to enlightment. I have to say that sex is very overrated, but that is not all.
    It's just rediculous to rely on others for your happiness. It's best to see woman as wild animals. Don't even spend time on them just keep
    them at distance and do some fun things you can do alone. I'm sick of being looked down upon and being attacked by woman all my life.

    It caused me great pain in my teenage life to not being able to find a girl to have sex with, but with experiencing this escort girl I can finally look back and laugh at the past and move on and live in peace with my doll.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_JNIWLD2N7KE6YWLCZBXZ5EC3RQ Yusiley S

    Good for you. I wish more insecure men would remove themselves from the dating scene. It would make the job easier for the rest of us, both men and women. :) I wish you and your doll the very best. Peace.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_JNIWLD2N7KE6YWLCZBXZ5EC3RQ Yusiley S

    There are differences between women who collect dolls and stuff toys and men who have these sex dolls. One these men actually think their dolls are actual people and they have sex with them. That's the main purpose of these dolls... it's to have sex with. Secondly, the dolls and stuff toys that the women whom you speak of collect aren't commercialized sex toys. The purpose of the toy dolls and stuff toys is to be just companion toys. Figures to be played with, nothing more. They're not necessarily treated as actual sexual partners as the men are treating their sex dolls. Lastly, most of the women whom you speak of are in actual relationships with real men, not with male sex dolls.

    Also don't compare nuns and monks with these men who are having sex with dolls. Nuns and monks aren't teased for "missing out" because they devoted their lives to something bigger than us all, including sex. They are prohibit to even think of sexual thoughts, much less act upon them. These men with their sex dolls think they could replace real human connection with an inanimated object, but they fail to see that humans need real companionship not a sex doll, which is why I think that guy with the huge collection of dolls has so many dolls... he is trying to fill up that companionship void. He isn't going to fill it up very well with dolls I can tell you that. I seriously think he is developing a hoarding disorder.

    These men who are using sex dolls are missing out, because no matter how much the sex toy industry has advanced, these sex dolls and sex bots will never feel, smell, taste, sound or look like the real thing. Again the main purpose of these sex dolls is for sex, because these men can't seem to find or attract a living breathing female. Millions of women world wide and they can't seem to get one? Clearly it's their own fault for not trying at all. That's pathetic, not sad.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_JNIWLD2N7KE6YWLCZBXZ5EC3RQ Yusiley S

    I agree with you in all except with "Is this really all that UN-usual? Lets look at fake va-inas and dil-os *I'm trying not to offend anyone* I can see these "dolls" being a more intimate extension of those toys."

    The fact that the companies are trying to duplicate the actual look and feel of women (even though they fail) is unusual and quite different from the fake vaginas and penises (vibs and dildos). Fake vaginas and penises are just used and put to the side, which is why so many of them look and feel so fake. They're not made to replace a full body human being like these sex dolls, which the higher class series look so real it's scary. Plus I don't know any man, or male for that matter, on this planet who has a vibrating cock. *LOL* They also don't have interchangeable faces or bodily features, just changeable tiny parts for the rabbit vibs. These dolls are made to try to replace that which some people can't obtained.. a human mate. Lastly, I would never treat my vib as if it were my husband, whether it's for game or not. It's just a tool to be used when my man isn't available, and put back where it belongs. He has his busy days at work, fixing his car, resolving problems for his friends (I seriously think he ought to major in psychology) and other things. I respect his individuality and caring heart. The vib can never replace him. It's just a tool. Most people, especially men have these dolls because they can't handle real responsibilities and consequences with real people. Anyways my vib could never help me with the house work, have deep philosophical conversations with or enjoy a social events such as a walk through art galleries or visit new exhibits at the science museum. It would be to silly to be walking around those events with a huge, thick, pearl vib in hand and talking to it about the Venetian collection,especially when now-a-days these locations are packed with kids. The men in white coats would be waiting for me outside.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_JNIWLD2N7KE6YWLCZBXZ5EC3RQ Yusiley S

    You're fucking kidding me right? >_> You have serious women issues and you place everyone into the same f^cking basket. Not all men are victims like you nor are all women are like what your post says.

    Also what kind of weird tv are you watching... because all I see are men portrayed positively and more diverse than what you're claiming at. I mean seriously, can you even see at all.

    Women don't control finances... men do. It's why men get 25% more pay than women do and more likely to be promoted for the same stupid job. Good case in point, Walmart. Now... with that said, jobs that are typically female occupations, tend to hire more women than men. Real feminism is fighting against those gender bias. In fact it's because of feminism why men can be Kindergarten teachers or work in the hospitals as nurses. Feminism ... real feminism, not that neo- garbage that is insulting the equality of the sexes, has opened more occupations for men and women. I mean, have you done any actual research or are you just picking and choosing facts, because that's not true research that's just insulting it and retards real science.

    Suicides are mainly caused by an imbalance of the hormones of the brain. There are boys commenting suicide right now over in Africa, where women have no rights at all and feminism doesn't exist. Your argument on suicide is weak.

    Where's the proof that men are the majority who suffer from domestic abuse? Men will rarely be a victim of domestic abuse... they're still physically stronger than women. I mean seriously... now you're making sh!t up. Not saying that it doesn't occur because it does... but they are very rare compare to women. There are just not high enough percentage of men coming forward and that's due to the chauvinistic, patriarchal society (not feminism)telling men that they can't get raped, they don't cry... that they're warriors that need to be strong at all times, etc . Real feminism is fighting against that stereotype.

    As someone already stated, men do have contraceptive pills and other birth control methods that are less evasive... there is one called a condom. Pills are too invasive and contrary to popular opinion not every woman can take it. You really don't want to take something that causes depression, high blood pressure, insomnia, fatigue, weight gain, tender of the breasts, etc...I could go on because I've taken that cr@p and it caused me all sorts of side effects. There are also heart attacks and death. That's not equality, that's just being dumb and not doing any real research on the matter.

    Many divorces occurred because men can't seem to keep it in their f^cking pants!Again do deep through REAL research!

    Men are fewer in the upper classes in Universities because men think that just because they're men that they're entitled to a free ride. Sorry but I earned my degree through hard work and dedication. If Billy Bob is too lazy and stupid, he isn't getting one.

    Men aren't passed over at jobs, especially not now-a-days with the recession. Married men with kids will always triumph anyone else in todays' job market. AGAIN DO RESEARCH!

    Alimonys are a f^cking joke. I don't bother with them, especially when I earn more than most of the men I go out with.

    Also not all women are money hungry. I dated my man when he was talking art courses and was broke. Eight years later, he is still broke. LOL But that's ok. He is still a hard worker around the house and a great lover, both mentally and physically. I've always been attracted to mentally rich men, even though they may be financially poor. Anyways I tell him not to worry, even though I worry about paying off my loans, that when I get a permanent position at a school, he will be a stay at home kind of guy. He dreams of being a home maker... which btw real feminist (not femnazis) are fighting to protect and give total equality for both sexes and genders (yes there is a difference; one is nature the other cultural). If men want to be home makers, real feminists are fighting for them to have that right.

    You know, you bitch and whine more than the femnazis you're complaining about. And yes there is a huge difference between REAL feminism and the neo- sh!t that is passing itself as feminism, aka Femnazism. Real feminism fight against injustice of both sexes and everything what you've enlisted in your post. I think you're confusing it with the neo-garbage that is out now showing in the media. That is the one that is demonizing men and surprisingly hurting women equality (they actually retard the progress of total equality of the sexes and genders with their man hating ways).

    Also what kind of women have you went out with? I can assure you that if they look like the women on Spike TV, you're just begging for trouble. Date a woman from a university with a degree. If you have a great personality, like a good heart and are a great lover, both mentality and physically... she'll overlook the fact that you're unemployed. If she cancels you out, she isn't worth it. That's just how it is in the game of love.... and that isn't feminism at all... that game have been around since the dawn of time. You weren't born out of no where. You're mother fell in love with your dad and it resulted in you. Your father had qualities that your mother really liked and the reverse is true too. Your mother had qualities your father loved. Now it's your turn to play that game. It's ok if you're scared of it, but it doesn't give you the right to bash and place everyone into a single basket because you picked out a few bad eggs in the market place. So what throw away the bad eggs. You now learned how they look like. Find the women who are the good eggs opposite of those bad eggs. It's not that hard if you know what and where you're are looking.

    I wish you and your dolls a happy life. ...And please, do a more through, deep research and not just getting facts from youtube... it's degrading to true research study. It's just as bad as my students getting facts from wikipedia. It's pathetic and only shows how lazy and weak minded you are.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_JNIWLD2N7KE6YWLCZBXZ5EC3RQ Yusiley S

    It is very illogical of you to place every women into the same box. Not all women think porn is adultery.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Andrew-Joyner/100000818697023 Andrew Joyner

    I'm replying to this post because I was'nt able to reply to the one from you above one.

    First of all, I was mainly bringing up monks & nuns because I was saying that there's nothing wrong with people having a single lifestyle. And pointing out that some people seem to think all there is to life is being in a relationship. I was mainly making this point because I do not date or have sex & I prefer it that way, it's my lifestyle & I kind of relate to Monks & Nuns. I was'nt comparing them...

    As far as the whole doll & stuff animal thing, I was mainly making a comparisen because these are "all toys" so what if stuff animals are not "sex toys".

    And as for men being pathetic because they have a hard time finding a woman & turning to these dolls, that's not pathetic. It's difficult sometimes for a guy to find a woman & you should'nt judge them so harshley because you do not know everyone. And some people may not want a relationship & just prefer to get one of these dolls plus some of theses men "did date" so you can't say they all are missing out.

  • ForeverDove

    So these guys are the sheep that dont get on with the other sheep?
    So these guys are the ants that take a different path home?
    So these guys are the birds that dont fly with the flock?

    WOW !! GREAT OBSERVATION !! pft

  • happytrailz

    Assuming your post isn't a fake...

    Having sex with an "escort girl" makes you a pedaphile (if she really is a "girl.") If she's an "escort WOMAN," she's actually a prostitute, and that still makes you a CRIMINAL (although, for different reasons.) Not to mention, an exploiter of drug addicted and/or mentally unstable women. Congratulations. Way to waste your life, dude.

    "...not being able to find a girl to have sex with..." And you wonder why women aren't swooning at your feet. The absolute selfish, cynical ickitude of this line is surpassed only by Joel's "I might as well be the one." Yeah, right. I think I'm in love... Hint: try to present yourself as someone who would make a decent HUSBAND and FATHER, and quit worrying about your precious genitalia.

  • Orfkip

    My post is real.

    Don't get started about being a criminal, I'm already on "two strikes".
    But I can tell you I did everything within the Law when having sex with that escort.

    Really, what is bad about being selfish? It's one of the biggest mistakes I have made in my
    life: trusting and relying on people. Now I can only get disappointed with the things I do and not because of expecting something from someone besides myself. And about presenting me as husband and/or father:
    All a woman want is a man that is social, they don't care if it would be a smelly hobo. As an introvert guy I would never
    be appealing to a woman, even if I was the best looking guy in the world. So if you need to appealing for woman by
    being social and exrtovert then they're are just a bunch of apes which I want nothing to do with anymore.

  • AlekNovy

    That shows your ignorance happy. Escorting is legal in most countries.

    And the word girl simply means young woman. It doesn't mean "a person below age of consent", and it definetely doesn't mean "pre-pubescent child". So your pedophilia remark is just insanely ignorant.

    A pedophile is someone who desires sex with pre-pubescent children. Technically, having sex with (for example) a 17 year old where the age of consent is 18 (for example) would be "statutory rape", not pedophilia.

    Most countries in the world have the age of consent as pretty low, between 14-16.

    You have made so many errors it's a joke. Might I suggest buying a dictionary?

  • AlekNovy

    @Natalia Fateyeva who vommited out:

    "That goes for you too, stop blaming women, society and whatever else for your failure and cowardness!"

    Why is that when men are too shy to ask women out they are "losers and cowards", but when 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999% of women on the planet just stand around and never ask a guy out, they're not?

    It's like the pot calling the kettle black. Shy men have every right to blame society and women. They've been bullied, harassed, mocked and humiliated by bullies like you their entire lives.

    Whenever they tried to improve, all they met is hostility and bullies like you that tried to bring them to suicide. Being born an introvert is not a crime, but some women like you wish to treat it that way.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_AB72XZIIGTWC6E767WHTH6DHIM Kahina

    My husband and I were totally freaked out by this. Poor guys--see what cruelty can drive a person to? Be kind to others.

  • knowledgeizpower

    I'm thinking that they probably will make guy dolls for women if they have not started already and then you will have women buying them too....look beyond the scope If you make women dolls then men dolls next thing someone will think of is the children dolls and you know how there are some sickos out there for real.... lets look at the big picture you start one thing then it escalates into some potentially sick crap....I would leave this stuff alone personally....

  • Guest

    Imagine having a threesome with a man doll and woman doll. Kind of like playing with Barbie and Ken but many years later.
    az

  • Achems_Razor

    Ah, did you know that what you are fantasizing about is basically one step up to the real thing, go for it. (LOL) let us know how it turns out.

  • Guest

    This has nothing to do with dreams and fantasizing but more with jokes and lack of compassion on my part.
    I like my partner(s) to be a "little" more active, blood and emotion generated.
    az

  • Guest

    I rephrased it the right way.
    darn english!
    az

  • knowledgeizpower

    Az I don't think you would try mating with a Ken Doll I mean come on dildos and vibrators and things were thought up but now they just took it all the way with Lets Screw A whole Plastic Human Doll?? Come on what else is next Plastic Dogs Horses you got folks into screwing animals too...Darn that German Shepherd Sure looks sexy you got any plastic ones?? WHAT THE HELL? this is crazy to me I'm sorry..

  • Achems_Razor

    No matter how you rephrase it Azilda, am sure we all get the rift of what in essence you really mean! Pretty hard to tone it down isn't it, like I said, don't be shy, go for it. (LOL) Can I watch, pant, pant.

  • knowledgeizpower

    This is how I look at it the point I was trying to make...In the doc the office manager mentioned the strange requests she got (Mind you she said strange requests) was a man called in asking for a Pregnant Doll, another asked for an 80 year old Women Doll...If someone is requesting an 80 year old doll flip that around an 8 year old doll...You walk in a house and someone is screwing this little 8 year old doll tell me what someone would think about that??? Then this Sicko would say ohhh its just a Doll I'm not Breaking the Law???

    Come on you start something supposedly all innocent an cute and fun then it gets taken FAR out there for real....

    What did the guy from Texas say that had 8 dolls He said that it does get kind of lonely having a Real Live Woman Companion so he had a girlfriend that eventually left after this...

    Well you have some Paedophiles that are screwing these little kids and he/she gets to screwing some little child like plastic dolls and He says well I am getting lonely maybe I should go back to getting me a real Live Kid....I don't think this is a good thing to start doing imo.

    edit: Az i know you are just joking and I know what you are talking about I laughed and Liked all your comments Kay....I just like to take it to the next level of Hmmmm I didn't think about that you know thats all :)

  • Guest

    I'm not touching this subject with a ten-foot dong.

  • http://www.facebook.com/christianrangi Christian Rangi

    Suggest standards to the manufacturer(s) rather than let your mind waste energy imagining and worrying over possibilities that ain't out there .. be more constructive is where my brain looks at things .. especially if you believe what you think has importance .. which I think you do :) .. no point in worrying over nothing .. oh this is wasting my energy lol :) love

    I think you should visit a sex shop .. blow up dolls and sheep (lol) have been available for a long time.

    >> DON'T be fooled! They are NOT real! They are plastic with a lot of air in them!!!!

    PLEASE NOTE: I have NEVER and WILL NEVER use such devices .. EVER! haha :)

  • knowledgeizpower

    @ Christian Rangi...

    Lol..I liked your comment i'm not worried Christian and you don't have to convince me that You will Never use these Devices Lmao :)..I sent you a comment with a bizarre link before this one. Maybe this will help those be aware that this does exist and that there are people that are crossing the line with these dolls.

  • Godsclaws

    hahaha soo true, my cats are my emotional stability which is similar to what these guys are after and yet I still find this doc creepy and weird...

  • http://profiles.google.com/juraj.filkorn Juraj Filkorn

    you prude :D

  • http://www.facebook.com/tembi.berginbatten Tembi Bergin-batten

    "alternative partner" is not an appropriate description. Unless you would call a dining room table or a tree an "alternative partner"
    These guys are not interested in partnership. Hence the ... thing.

  • countcristo

    In 40 years from now once the technological singularity is breached human woman will be all but replaced by incredibly beautiful shapely talking nymphomaniac sex robots that can do everything a human female can but better. World population will decline drastically even though aging will be reversed and lifespans increased indefinitely.

  • overused1

    Here is my 2cents and you may or may not like it. Most of the Women out there talk about us guys wanting to control them yet they also want to control us guys. The proof is out there, check out divorce rates and who does the divorcing on the internet. Ya I could go out and find a woman and have sex, been there done that as well, but o ya it has to be there way. Men have to spend there hard earned money for the dates, then get nothing, or you have to put a condom on "ya latex". To bad most women dont know what a condom feels like. You dont know how many men thay have spread there legs to. STDS. The sex could be **** (they just lay there like a realdoll) or they then claim you raped them and you pay thousands in court defending yourself or you go to prison for something you did not do and get raped by other guys.(check out why so many guys get released because of new DNA.) So you choose to try and find a " REAL WOMEN " (GOOD LUCK) and get married. Well damn now they have you by the balls and a leash around your neck because they can gain weight, shop as much as they want, act the way they want, tell you when you can and can not have sex and if you dont do what they want, act the way they want or talk the way they want you to, well then "your screwed". They use sex to CONTROL, or threaten to divorce ( TO CONTROL ) and then take the children, childsupport, alimony, medical bill, half of everything, the house **** I could go on because I have been there done that ****. We men go to work and make money and they take most of everthing. " CAN WE SAY SLAVE ANYONE " Where in the hell is the fun or great sex in that. Ya I would rather have sex with a realdoll (which is more real than most women) where I hear the sex is sooooooooooooooooooooooo much better and you dont have to ask, and you dont have to go threw all the BS that I have stated. You can say all your bull crap you want but it does not change the truth. The internet, court system and most men will prove this over and over again. Ya there is some **** guys out there. How many of them do ya think the women made that way with there controlling ****?????? I would love to see women go threw the **** that most women have put men threw and see what happens to them. O ya I have the women goes crazy. This is a big reason why REALDOLL FACTORIES ARE BOOMING WITH BUSINESS, get a clue the numbers dont lie. Add me to the count. Damn cant wait till I get mine. No more BS with women....Pure bliss and damn sexy..... Just my 2cents.

  • Solitare Macabre

    Guy's and Dolls
    A guy goes into an adult product store and says to the clerk. Hey I would like to get one of those inflatable dolls.
    The clerk says ok what would you like a male doll or female doll?
    The guy replies a female what do you think?
    The clerk says well you know it takes all kinds, and so is there any particular race you wanted
    The guy says yes give me a cacaiusn,**** a caucasian. White I want a white female inflatable doll.
    The clerk says ok just one more thing would you like your inflatable doll to be a Christian or a Muslim?
    The guy replies now what the heck does religion have to do with this?
    The clerk answers well sir the Muslim doll blows itself up. ********* LOL.

    It's a joke laugh about it.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/2E6U4X55LTUB22S3EWV5BVXZBY Sam Gold

    not funny

  • Kirsten Council

    Sex is not a logical thing and it makes perfectly reasonable people act in ways that may seem socially backward. Who cares if these guys want to have sex with real dolls? Women use all sorts of toys all the time & no one bats an eyelash - you can even buy vibrators in a lot of drugstores! The only thing that would concern me is if they "forgot" how to deal with real women & it hurt their chances of developing a RL relationship. But hey, they may not want a RL relationship; if so, again, who is getting hurt by this?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/ZLK2EY75EEQWXBF6LJXHKBWXHI Sydney

    Gives a whole new meaning to objectifying women. lol

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/ZLK2EY75EEQWXBF6LJXHKBWXHI Sydney

    Well said Elena. :)

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=552975784 Shan Maree Walker

    LOL...Excellent. Ahhh kids, they blow up so quickly these days...

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/AK77FTMTCUR2QYVQ6YDUSXT5NM XyzX

    Just want to add my experience in terms of these "losers". In North America, you have to be a good looking/tall guy just to get an average girl. Even fat girls expect to get an above-average guy (and female obesity is skyrocketing - they just don't care anymore, someone will fu*k them anyway). If you're an unattractive dude, you're completely screwed. I was lucky to get out of North America when I was 19, had a few girls, and now am in a loving relationship with an attractive lady. If I had stayed? I'd probably be a virgin, if not a suicide case. I probably wouldn't go as far as Realdoll, but I can understand these guys situations.

  • VenetianLucifer

    It was heartbreaking watching these guys.
    To realize how lonely and insulated people can become.

  • Gypsyspy2000

    even better then the real thing I want a man one real men suck

  • Cool_whip500

    I'm a 5'9" above average looking North American woman who was in an 8 year relationship with a 5'7" slightly below average looking man. The only reason our relationship ended was because he allowed his own physical insecurities to drive him to become abusive towards me. So not every woman only cares about how a guy looks but the less attractive guy isn't always nice.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Allison-Thacker/649040150 Allison Thacker

    it's sad when you think our society have pushed us to feel not accepted by our fellow species.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1427890085 Steve Photomad Skp

    I found this show fascinating when I first watched it with my girlfriend a couple of years ago - I had no idea these things existed!
    Not something that I would ever be into, but if these guys feel that this is their only option, and it keeps em happy, then let them get on with it! They are not out doing nasty things like so many others do (rapists, paedophiles etc) so I fail to see why anyone would have a pop at them :/
    LIVE & LET LIVE!

  • E S

    I just wanted to say that I'm really sorry to hear that. Just as it's wrong to judge someone for being unattractive, it is equally wrong to judge someone who is attractive, and abuse is NEVER okay. I hope you find someone who deserves you and treats you with respect.

  • Jimboyoyo

    well, I don't know if I'd have sex with a doll, but I definitely wouldn't have sex with someone else's doll!

  • Sarah Brown

    This documentary exemplifies the extent that we would go to in order to feel some form of companionship. However, unfortunately, these men feel as though they are inadequate and because of this, they have to confine in dolls. I'm not one to pity anyone, but these men I do feel sorry for. Throughout the film, I felt myself wanting to give these men a giant hug and say " Everything will be okay, you will find someone one day." I know this seems like a rudimentary action, but these men just need to know that they are loved and love is not just having intercourse with a doll. I really hope that they are able to watch themselves via this film and understand they are worth more and that they can find someone. I could be wrong and overly optimist, but one thing I know I am right about is that these men are sad and lonely.

  • http://www.facebook.com/ngochien.nguyen.31337 Ngoc Hien Nguyen

    What I hear are men trying to justify their reasons for why a doll is better than human companionship when they shouldn't even have to. This idea of what being sexually desirable means are not our ideas. Women miss out knowing these men for who they are while these men keep their ideals of what they want women to look like through these dolls while they could be rejecting real women right under their noses, quote "I'd never be able to get a real women that would look like this but the real doll can give me that". Suited to taste? Bull*hit. All these dolls look like barbies to me; chesty, high cheekbones, just slightly different skin tones, unanimated. In the end, I don't see how anybody really wins except the people making a living out of exploiting people's weaknesses and perpetuating them. There would be no market for dolls if these vulnerable men were able to think of themselves as sexually desirable to real women. This video was heart-breaking. And gives me another reason to think how this entire society's screwed up.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jack-Dempsey/552338058 Jack Dempsey

    At last, an answer to the Republican party's problems!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Hassan-Hamza/1313490761 Hassan Hamza

    Those dolls have the same IQ as Sarah Palin

  • beepath

    What do you mean 40 years? There are repubic women known as Stepford Wives. See the 1975 version of the movie....

  • beepath

    HAHAHA, Good to know....

  • http://www.facebook.com/NikkiUts Nikki Anela Utufa Evans

    Wow, ok so the last guy definitely seemed like he was just a pig and I'm SO glad his girlfriend left him after the film was shot, she deserves better and you could tell that his vast collection of dolls were NOT ok with her even tho she said they were on camera. The first and second guy shown in this doc. have issues obviously and I really feel bad for them, they really do seem lonely. I even felt kind of bad for the 3rd guy too. I think it is very strange and really gross but they need some genuine help, not people teasing them. Unfortunately now after this documentary everyone knows their "secret" and that is exactly what may happen. This documentary left me feeling very appalled and then very sad!

  • clint

    that one guy that had all those sex dolls... man I bet his house smelled funky.

  • Dewi Mohammed

    I understand that any person must satisfy their needs but I can almost assure it's not the best way to fill it because it creates a new kind of deviation from the right path to human nature to associated with a real mate, I feel really bad and sad for them i almost see a cry for help behind their actions.

  • Adam

    I don't understand why using dolls is taboo. It makes more sense to me than using real women for sex. Just seems more honest, more moral...even more hygienic, assuming you clean them after every use. Kudos to those guys willing to be in the documentary.

  • neeko giana

    It's hard to say if I would own a doll if I had no success with women. I'm sure I would. It's difficult to relate to but if you put yourself in the shoes of one of these men. I can't say I blame them. Very interesting documentary, makes a person think and see just how different life could be. Sure makes a guy appreciate what he's got.

  • guest

    I'm an old fashioned gentleman (just 38) Have been married twice, 1st caused 8 divorces via adultery and I divorced in 7 months. (I'm lucky to not have aids or be dead) 2nd died sadly after a few months. I have had 15 girlfriends before. (5 of them I didn't sleep with, even 2 live-ins, once I decided to become a wait for marriage guy) Every one of them cheated in the first 1-6 months, but still wanted to keep me so stop your lies right there that it has anything to do with the victim you evil slags. (most later trying to get me back too) Many girls try to get with me (now that I have money and its dead obvious their intentions) but I'm not interested in either being with them, nor going out and having sex. I can't stand loose girls and wont bed one even if "hot". I can afford to have my choice of over at least 2 million live in prostitutes from many countries in the world if I wanted. (nearly any of them better than a g/f or non-TRULY Christian wife, in all ways shapes and forms, and a hell of a lot more honest too) But I won't do that either. I don't want a fat pig girlfriend and I certainly would never settle for a fat pig wife. (forget the US then) I'm not super tall I'm under average (forget the US+Canada+UK+AU then again) I'm now too old for anyone without their own kids/massive ungodly amount of baggage. I tried 3 times with girls who had kids, nightmare on elm street, they couldn't give one s*it about a guy. In the western world, kids to a girl are #1 and the man doesn't mean s*it, hes a leftover at best and a slave to her life, she doesn't care one bit if the kids don't have a proper family and father or that kids can die, WILL move out, and alienate you at 14+ years old. Kids are supposedly for life (even though gone in 14 years), and the man? F$%# a man I can get a new one just by opening my legs. My University mates (15 of us) all married, ALL our wives committed adultery. We never talk about it, but we have and everyone knows it. Only 3 even made it to the having kids stage before catching them and divorcing. Most of us have been raped in divorce also by the poor sods. I can't find one decent honorable REAL WOMAN (a lady) who isnt fat or homely as sin, to save my life, in any country in the world I have been to, (well travelled) and I often frequent churches (where the total void of girls aged 25+ single without kids) is very evident unless they are there to catch a rich easy mark decent guy to fraud. (many parasites in there, some with great game too) I have been eyeing real-doll for a while and I am so happy they have made it. I havent bought one yet but you bet your a** I will. (just too damn busy in business) It's not that guys cant find to wh*re to screw, (just need to buy you s*upid slags a beer or two or a dinner or two and ask, and its over, AT BEST) I can walk into any place I want and If I really want sex ill get it by nights end, there are so many pigs out there in the free-love world, I could be a total pig and still hit. (but I NEVER do that, even to the point of crying on my f'in pillow, truth, NEVER) If I acted all sweet to them like the players and used the BS games they play, I could have even more girls. But you know what? I hate the games, I hate the sleazy cheap sex and it made me feel even worse back when I fell to it in total lonliness after years of waiting. I'm not attracted to the easy pigs, nor the fat girls, I want a lady, and you know what? There are NONE. I would rather date an old woman from the 1950's or 1940's just as a friend than date any of you sick pigs. I'm rich, loving like a damn prince, I'm not a 9 but in some girls eyes I'm an 8. I was a ten in past (didn't help, seriously) and now that I'm 38, losing hair, quite a bit of grey, lines on face, I'm only a 5-8. In 23 years I have been searching the WORLD for love, and haven't found ANYTHING but horrific abuse on a scale never thought imaginable in a world where we have disney movies. I thank GOD for the real doll so that when I'm old, at least I can have some of the sex I waited for being a gentleman. (many girls say I'm too old already when hear my age, out comes the frown, sulking, etc, cause I don't look it, even with lines, greys, and receding like a scot, but its catching up fast now)

    Face it, a realdoll cant fraud you, a realdoll wont abuse you, a realdoll wont judge you, a realdoll wont take you for granted nor use you nor neglect you, nor put you 2d 3rd 4th, 10th. They wont be immature selfish mindgame playing crybabies either. A REAL WOMAN ISNT a size 14 you fat lazy un-giving uncaring manhating selfish pigs. Only in OBESE-ica, and nearly the whole world (and pre-1980 US) IS DIFFERENT, (a size 0-8, 8 on the fat end) (I'm still in near athlete shape too) A realdoll will never lie to you, cheat you, betray you, yell at you, insult you, dishonor and disrespect you, as almost ALL girls will, and everyone knows it.

    I would order one today if I didn't have to fly tomorrow.
    I am hard anti-prostitution, I am so hugely a family man, and have been wanting kids for 13 years badly, but cant find a decent mother NOR WIFE anywhere I have looked, and I feel like I have dilligently turned every rock there is to turn in the world (near full time job for at least 10 of the 23 years during single times, looking) I was strong to not have kids while having all the gf's I had and chose to build family in priority. Every gf I had, my intention was marriage, hers? Only to get herself money, IF marriage was actually more than just on her lips (always in mouth just like the #1 lie - i love you)

    I'm sick and tired of girls and totally to the point of beyond giving up. I haven't even MET ONE girl who has any concept nor interest in giving to her husband in marriage, (im talking in mind before marrying) nor living a code of that, in ANY WAY (outside of a church of course) Good men would F#^#in DIE for their wives, passion from a woman? you could hear a F$%#in pin drop, WORLDWIDE. Not only is there absolutely NO DESIRE at ALL to give anything to the man (I can hear it now, OH OH IM GIVING!! I may be fat as a cow but ill let him have a little now and then!!) PASSSS!!!!

    I would rather spend all my money to the point of poverty marketing for realdoll, than spend one f#%&ing dime on some cheap piece of trash like all the girls are today. (meet some exceptions, but always not my type - (very unfit, or homely as, dumb as a post) Not that I will spend my money on marketing for realdoll, but I wont spend my money dating any girl either. I Gladly date myself now, and believe me, the only girl in the WORLD that's coming over to my seat seeing me alone, is some pig after money, or some fat girl, or some prostitute. I dress very well being a gentleman, in a non-assuming non-threatening casual-up way. And I've done tests of all kinds man I mean I've done it like science. And no matter which way you go, girls ain't coming over, and I am DONE approaching girls (finished that at 37 due to all the world-known obvious reasons no one need rehash. (I don't go to bars either, rare exception for me as in 1-4 times a year to a pub style)

    I go to all the other places, meetings, groups whatever, Void of girls, especially of any intellect, but the sharks are swimming. I have done all the dating services, all the sites, (in many countries) just a shopping service for prince sucker, and any girl attractive is working it like a whore-broker.

    I think I'm getting maybe 50% of the way near up to the equal hate that man-hating women of the western world have now, I can begin to feel it.

    This decent family man-gentleman (dresses like and has the pocket also, in the gym, and opens doors and does charity, and on my knees also, the full life-giving kind of selfless husband) is DONE, FINISHED, FINALITY. F$&# you despicable trash pigs, so selfish and totally self-serving and ungiving.

    I will give the final good years of my prime, to a realdoll. I will artifical insem and adopt at around 50, and live a happy life.

    Now go back to your shoe collection, depserate houswives and sex in the city, niptuck, lesbos, dildos, and other sick gossip and adultery clubs, and when you see the next man who looks away when your eyes meet his, JUST KEEP WALKIN.

  • Joy

    Despite your rant being riddled with bitterness and hostility, it was refreshingly honest.

  • Bryan Araki

    I agree even tho we own some non sex ones see my other comment as to why. To me their just a really expensive sex toy for masturbation. But getting close to them for being companionship is borderline unhealthy. Same as those who Facebook or chat all day on their PC's its more hurtful than helpful.

    Sorry I'm married to a Dr and she tells em these things, but you really don't have to be one to see it. I used to be a police officer and again imo these may help to curb those with sexual tensions who may otherwise to harm. Only bad side is most cannot afford these things.

    Man Ive seen so many bad sex type crimes when I was an active patrol cop. Thankfully I work in the private sector in corporate security we offer Vip, corporate aka banks etc and private military contact security aka ex military security for overseas workers or PMC's as their known. So no more domestic violence calls for me. 10yrs of that was enough.

    So I all for stuff like this to again help curb the lonesomeness or sexual tension so in society may need tho some in this show may need medical help as well.

  • Bryan Araki

    Oh one last comment before I go probably won't find this site or even remember it. But the UK TV or BBC, CH4 etc always exaggerates or lies to make their shows more showy so I bet that break up at the end maybe didn't even happen they could be happily married. I have a friend who works for the BBC and he says 90%+ of UK shows are embellished. Anyway food for thought.

  • Laura Vanderwoude

    You want kids... but you want women to put you first, not the kids? Doesn't sound like dad material....

  • HopeNotHateBNP

    Awesome dolls, absolutely awesome. I have now started saving for one even though it will take years on my current earnings! They are just so worth it. Everard Cunion is my hero!

  • HopeNotHateBNP

    Sounds about right which is why I gave up on television years ago!

  • HopeNotHateBNP

    And if it isn't over pretenciousness it will be purely the way a man looks.

  • HopeNotHateBNP

    Couldn't agree MORE mate. The day the excuses of "women" stop taking LOOKS and not persona as important ...

  • Vittoria

    Not all women are like that. Maybe you are searching in the wrong places? And I agree that being fit is an important part of healthy life, but if you can't look behind someone's appearance to see their heart, you will miss a beautiful friendship and/or relationship.
    Also, your unkind attitude and skepticism is probably what left you with non-quality women. Any woman worth her salt would look at you, with your rudeness and ranting and macho, "men are better" tendencies, and would run for her life.
    Food for thought. And if you decide to get the doll, best of luck.
    Sincerely, a real lady

  • Jane Tow

    As I

  • Jane Tow

    Yeah, definitely not daddy material. It's funny when someone wants SO MUCH from someone else, yet there is no way that can give the same in return.