Life or Death in the Gaza Strip

Chernobyl HeartA rare glimpse of the embattled Gaza Strip and a chance to see what life was like under the rule of Hamas. In 2007 VICE tried and failed to get into Gaza through the Israeli-controlled Erez Crossing.

Back then the rival Palestinian factions of Hamas and Fatah were engaged in a bloody war for control of this tiny strip of land.

Hamas won. When the post-Mubarak government of Egypt decided to start letting small numbers of folks into Gaza through their Rafah Crossing, VICE knew they could finally enter the region.

Watch the full documentary now

Ratings: 8.62/10 from 21 users.

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105 Comments / User Reviews

  1. Efritt

    Very shallow, but i guess it isn't that bad for 30 minutes.

    Failed to convey the scale of responsibility Israel and the western world holds for the situation in Gaza.
    Didn't make clear that Hamas, winning the election, was supposed to rule in the west bank as well.
    That Samah Ahmed is confused, but i understand why she was given a voice. Why not try to fix things inside Hamas instead of sitting there and wishing Fatah came back? Fatah may be more progressive but they are corrupt and have failed to deliver anything to the Palestinians for a long time.

    I'd take Islam, at least Hamas' kind, over corruption anytime.

    Oh, you also forgot to show how much Hamas actually gave, and gives, the people in terms of education and aid.

  2. Epicurus

    "Oh, you also forgot to show how much Hamas actually gave, and gives, the people in terms of education and aid."

    as long as the civilians act as human shields when the time comes.

    lol im not taking sides because it would be like picking one group of childish a**holes over some other group of childish a**holes.

  3. Far Spam

    yes the usual one sided view... throw mud and hope it sticks...

    I was surprised how soft and short it was... I guess its a testament to Hamas for keeping order under such a hopeless situation.

    Funny how the presenter couldnt understand why they wouldnt let women be seen in cells ;-)

  4. walterr44

    Yes the occupation should end.

    According to the 1922 League of Nations mandate all land west of the jordan river belonged to the Jews. In 1929 Jews were forcibly driven out of Gazaand Hebron. In 1967 these territories were liberated by Israel. Moish Dayan foolishly told those in Gaza to stay. Until Islamofascists began their reign of terror by killing hundred of innocent women and children in Israel residents in Gaza could work in Israel and in fact it had the higher standard of living than in most Arab countries

    There is so much that this documentary unintentionally reveals about
    the justice of Israel's cause that I could write volumes. But
    I'll concentrate on one thought.

    What amazes me is the sheer phoniness of the Left. Women in jail for
    having an unwed baby, for adultery. If this were in any Western country
    all the Leftist would be screaming with rage. They'd yell fasciism till
    they were red in the face. IF this were in a Western country and women were forced to wear a particular kind of clothing then all the Leftists would crawl out of the woodwork and scream freedom. The Hamas official claimed that they respect Christianity. But did this documentary interview any christians in gaza. There were Christians there at one time, but they were all driven out.
    The penalty for a moslem who converts to christianity is death. Hamas law. Fatah law is slightly less stringent

    None of this happens in Israel which is a democracy and religious freedom
    is a fact. Moslems, Christians, Buddhist's can be freely interviewed in Israel And there is no legal requirement to dress a certain way.

    Yet the phony leftists rage against Israel for defending itself.
    The Left shares nothing in common with Hamas or Fatah and yet
    it's israel the exocriate. Basically those leftists who are anti Israel
    (and there are too many) are racist antisemites who hide their prejudice
    behind "Anti Zionism"

    They call for sanction boycott divest against Istrael.
    But nothing about the Chinese occupation ot Tibet. And that was a real
    occupation where genocide was actually committed. The world is full
    of injustices for real oppressions but the phony leftists single out israel for
    imaginary oppression.

  5. Abby

    The land belongs to God, alone, no others. The borders were not placed by God, the problem is that no one is ready to recognise that we are just one family, God Created Adam and Eve (It is mentioned in the 3 Books), then we started to dseparate in groups, and then one group classified themselfes as the leadears. All people change the interpretations of the Books to their own gain. It is true that the Muslems are strict with women, but rest assure that are many Jews aslo that are strict with their women. Until we do not realise that we are all brothers, and respect all religions, colour and I do not mention nationalities, as I believe that there is no such evil. In my lifetime nothing will change, as the more wars we fight a selected few make huge profit, we should realise by now that it is all just staged for us to hate others in this way we justify ourselves from hurting them. Peace can be achieved if we all choose, we should had learned from the endless amount of wars that we continually are fighting. In the end we will all endup in dust, but I am sure that God will be there to judge us.

  6. Efritt

    human shields...
    sigh, another victim of Israeli propaganda. Plus, you have no clue what you are talking about, Hamas has different wings for different operations. The people elected them because they helped in ways that mattered, long before they gained power.

  7. Efritt

    all land west of the jordan river belongs to the jews? HAHAH
    in 1922? do you have any idea how many jews lived there at the time? rofl dude your post should be used as a satire.

  8. walterr44

    reply to Efritt
    Yes I do know how many, About 84,000 which comprised 12% of the population. there would have been more but the British restricted
    immigration jewish while allowing Jordanians and Syrian arab in
    for construction jobs in Haifa.

    What is satire is your ignorance of the subject.
    1. There is a league of Nations Mandate granting all land west of the
    jordan river to Israel.
    2. what ifs funny is your knee jerk leftist statement," the scale of responsibility Israel and the western world holds for the situation in Gaza."

    Israel is not responsible for the corruption and bloody power struggles among the terrorist thugs

  9. walterr44

    In reply to Abby
    Don't tell me, Don't tell Israel, Tell it to the Islamofascist. But they'd
    probably shoot you

  10. Epicurus

    god is make believe and the main reason these people cant come to a LOGICAL RATIONAL ADULT understanding.

  11. Efritt

    "... it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine"

    not to mention giving a land you occupied to a different people, which is illegal and simply wrong. 12% and you cant see the joke.

    and: "Israel is not responsible for the corruption and bloody power struggles among the terrorist thugs"

    You fail to consider most of Gaza's population are refugees from ares that are now called Israel, mostly expelled by force from destroyed villages or cities like Jafa. There is no corruption since hamas took force, not to mention Hamas was supported by israel earlier just as an opposition to Fatah. Also, Hamas was founded around the time of the second intifada, after years of military rule occupation.
    The only reason "bloody power struggles" took place is because Israel and msot of the western world decided to collectively punish Gaza and boycott Hamas while supporting Fatah to fight against them.
    and i could just go on and on.

    your view may work with uninformed m*rons, typical fox news product.

  12. slpsa

    Well, I am glad you cleared that up for us. I was under the impression that it belonged to a purple sky fairy, not something as mundane as a normal God. I think Epicurus spelled it out for you quite nicely. The reason they are at this point is their belief in different flavors of sky fairy's. If all of you could just take a long walk off a short dock, you would do the rest of the educated humans on this earth a huge favor. Or if we could only build one big man made island to put all you bunnies of different flavors, all together in one place and watch the fireworks from afar. The reason we have so much war and death on this planet is because of people like you, who's ignorance of reality knows absolutely no bounds, whatsoever.

  13. slpsa

    I will interject, some much needed wisdom and logic here. They are both wrong. And most importantly, there is no such thing as sky fairy's. I hope this gem of text has helped you understand the situation.

  14. Efritt

    God or not, what Abby said has nothing to do with your supposed criticism. did you even read his comment? lol

    There is only one group using the God argument of "God gave us this land".

  15. walterr44

    to efrit
    In 1922 the jews were in no position to prejudice anyone's rights.
    The British were in control and were partial to the arabs. All the land acquired by the Jews was legally purchased up to 1945. The Arabs however launched campaigns of murder and terror. Id you know how to read look up the NYtimes for april 1929. You'll read about the rampage in Jerusalem and hebron. many Jews were killed by Arabs. 12% is no joke. The Jewish settlements in Gaza also were abandoned. Yes Gaza is occupied, by the arabs since 1929,

    no the 12% in 1922 is no joke
    the disparity is partly due the
    influx of arab migrant workes let in by the british and the restrictive immigration agaisnt Jews.
    It is the arabs who prejudiced the rights of jewish communities.
    Many of the arab occupants of Gaza today came there in 1970
    after they ran amok in Jordan.
    Before 1967 there were Arabs in Gaza and they lived
    behind barbed wire and were confined to camps. they were utterly stateless.
    But Gaza at that time was controlledby Egypt not Israel.
    The arabs living in Israel were made full citizens of Israel.

    In 1947 the Arabs refused the U.N. partition plan and vowed to drive the Jews out. It was the Arabs who chose war not the Jews. some of the
    so called palestinians were forced out of israel but most left on the urging of arab countries because they planned a blood bath. It was the arabs who planned to drive out the Jews so they got driven out instead.
    so why complain about those arabs driven out when they themselves
    caused the situation by rejecting the 1947 plan and trying to expel the Jews

  16. Jack1952

    The one defining element of a Palestinian is his faith in Islam. If they relinquish their belief in Islam they would be just like anyone else in the Christians. They may not claim God gave them the land but it is in your own best interest to be a Muslim if you want to live there as far as they're concerned. The religious aspect is important to both sides.

  17. Jack1952

    They made it clear that this film was to show aspects of life in Gaza not the conflict between the Palestinians and the Jews. He said that he found this very difficult since this conflict intruded into all aspects of life in Gaza. He also blamed the United States for providing arms to Fatah thereby fanning the flames of violence among Palestinians and criticized American support of the blockade.

    Hamas rules Gaza as a religious autocracy. Their corruption lies in their insistence that everyone must believe and live exactly as they say or pay the consequences. There is very little good to choose from either side.

  18. Jack1952

    Israel may be in the wrong for their policies but the Palestinians have to take responsibility for their own actions. As long as they fight among each other, scream Islamic slogans, and elevate suicide bombers as heros, most of the world will not take them seriously. They present themselves as a group that cannot be reasoned with or who would be responsive to any dialogue. It may not be true but perception outweighs the truth more often than not.

  19. slpsa

    Hmm, yes, one says the Jewish sky fairy gave it to them, the Brown sky fairy says take it back from them. Jihad. Yeah. I read the comment, I understand all too well the politics involved, the history and everything in between. I am quite educated on the subject. Regardless, the sky fairy's are responsible for it all. Or rather, the dimwitted psychotic humans who believe in the sky fairy's, they are guilty of carrying on this stupid fight, just as much as the sky fairy books they follow. At the same time, they manage to brainwash and control generations of children to practice intolerance, racism, and ignorance of each other. Or better yet, kill each other. Yeah, you know what Efritt? I stick to my guns. They both need a boot in the ass and an adult lesson in getting along and respecting others beliefs and co-existing like we do in say, Canada. You know what I mean, I am sure, you do not strike me as uneducated nor dimwitted. It is not logical to say one side in this is more right than the other. Children act the way these two sides do. It is not becoming of nations to act like children, point fingers and blame the other is it........

  20. Epicurus

    "how many locations in Gaza you think they can fire from without being accused of using human shields?"

    anywhere outside the city. but of course that would make them an easy target so they hide behind innocent people like children.

    "Israel has been using Human shield in the literal sense for years:"

    did anyone say they havent? do you think saying that the other side does it to, suddenly makes it okay? that is a logical fallacy called Tu quoque.

    I agree with you that Israel is doing terrible things, but that is no reason to ignore the terrible things happening on both sides. thats what i like about not having any vested interest in either side. i can look at them and say they are both wrong.

  21. slpsa

    Well, if I thought that through, I would not want to take seriously any negotiations with people who come to the table with 20 sticks of TNT strapped to them and ask me to bargain and speak in good faith, while they hold the switch in their hands. You reap what you sow man.

  22. slpsa

    Yup, I seem to recall most intelligent people who have no bias feel the same way. The people who are not of the sky fairy worshiping type see it mostly that way, the sky fairy people see it as something entirely different. We outnumber the sky fairy lovers. We win, thanks for coming out.

  23. Jack1952

    My bottom line does say they are both responsible for the trouble in this area...but you can't blame Israel for the civil war in Gaza. That is their own damn fault.

    If a large group of Sunni Muslims had moved into this area instead of Jews, there would be no problem. The Muslims don't like being out numbered and believe everyone should be a Muslim.

    Even atheist Jews call themselves Jews because of ancestral traditions associated with their religion. Whether they practice it or not the synagogue is a huge influence on their life. It is inescapable.

    This is the most egregious case of religion being the cause of conflict in
    the last century, although the Pakistan-India conflicts isn't far behind.

  24. Noname Unknown

    They have no right being there in the first place, they cannot scientifically trace there blood line to these lands. yet they use a religious pretext for occupying these lands, Just remember boys and girls you'll lose your country's when your weak and defenseless too.

  25. Noname Unknown

    So long as you enjoy being wrong yourself.

  26. Efritt

    There are also Christian Palestinians/

  27. Efritt

    sorry, most of what you wrote is total crap.
    Even Jewish historians know that, its mostly Israeli propaganda that was already debunked by their own documents.
    Everyone is tired of hearing this totally distorted view.
    Hasbara much?

    I'm not even going to bother, Just know that you won't win anyone over with those lies.

  28. Efritt

    Well, you have a point but its not entirely true.
    Palestinians don't need religion for their claims, their claim is historical and political.
    Hamas was only founded in the late 80's. When people become desperate they go to religion i guess.
    Still, most Palestinian claims have nothing to do with religion.

    There was no civil war in Gaza, only a gang of Fatah armed by Israel and the West, and its gone.

  29. Jack1952

    But they are there and they are not leaving. Eventually right or wrong becomes a moot point. Migration has been a fact of life historically, to the detriment of the indigenous people. You cannot expect to persuade a few million Jews to leave and genocide would be out of the question. The Palestinians would find it in their own best interest to forget about the "Death to Israel" stance and learn to live in the environment they find themselves. This would include equal rights, politically and economically. Islamic extremism is not and will never be the way to answer the problems they face.

  30. walterr44

    To a neutral readers and Efritt

    Efritt, I really don't care what you think. I'm writing this for the sake of the casual reader who happens upon this web page, someone who knows little about Arab aggression against Israel and hears only biased anti Israel propaganda. The bottom line is that everything I've written can be verified by independent research. I even gave a source or two. I hope any such neutral reader who reads this will find out for himself/herself what the truth is.

  31. walterr44

    Ever since Israel relinguished control of Judea and Samaria most christians in the West bank have fled the territory

  32. walterr44

    Yes they can. Mitochondrial DNA studies defintely link Ashkenazi Jews
    to the Middle East. Yes, Israel will never again be weak and defenceless.

  33. Efritt

    Well I'm grateful that any natural reader can see your lies for what they are.
    "Arab aggression against Israel"
    haha, classic.
    If you don't care what i think then don't reply.

    "Israel relinguished control of Judea and Samaria"
    Another great lie, i suppose you live in a cave.

    The Israeli propaganda which you take for a fact is long gone, only a minority of people still believe in those lies. Any one of the new Jewish historians, even the right winged, know that its crap.

    Israel is being exposed for the lie it is, the public is getting wiser and most people now know that there is something wrong in this country. You can keep spreading that propaganda, I'm positive most people can tell, and that's why it doesn't upset me anymore.

  34. walterr44

    To Neutral readers of Efritt"s ranting

    He's given lot's of half baked opinions but no verifiable facts.
    You can research what I have given.

  35. Peter Nei Duffy


  36. Epicurus

    what am i wrong about?

  37. Efritt

    that depends on how you define "verifiable facts". The fact that you are payed to spread Israeli propaganda for example...
    Joan Peters is far from verifiable facts, which is ,mostly what your opinion consists of. Mostly lies that were already proven to be wrong.

    People who aren't sure:
    check Norman Finkelstein and Ilan Pappe , for example, many videos in youtube.
    The only counter argument people like you have is ad hominem shallowness. "self hating jews" and so on.

    Your Hasbara crap is worthless. Nobody is saying Jews dont have the right to live here, the problem is with the way it was done by the "organized" Zionist movement.

  38. dmxi

    "Nobody is saying Jews dont have the right to live here, the problem is with the way it was done by the "organized" Zionist movement."
    short,sharp & accurate!

  39. walterr44

    To neutral readers.

    In re: Efritt nonsense.

    Verifiable means you could look it up yourself. Was there a wave of Arab terror in 1929. Look it up in the NY Times. Was there a League of Nation Mandate, a UN partition plan that the jews accepted but the Arabs didn't, look it up.
    Was Amin Husani the political founder of so called Palestinian movement.
    Was he also the organizer of the Hanser battalion of the Waffen SS in Bosnia
    1943. It's in the history books. I could go on and on with this.

    Mention was made of Finkelstein and Pape. Yes they have a different, completely erroneous view. So does Noah Chomsky who Efritt forgot to mention. I won't speculate here on their motives. But the neutral reader should consider this. In Israel there is a wide range of opinion because there is freedom of speech. These views are freely published and discussed. But where there isfreedom of speech there is freedom to be totally wrong. Neutral reader,consider the analogous case on the opposite side. Hardly anyone in the Arab world has taken even a mildly pro Israel position. That's because there is a reign of terror and anyone who does so takes their life in their hands.
    Any challenge to Islamic orthodoxy is met with Fatwah. Even things that don't
    concern Israel. Think about what happened to Salmud Rusdie when he wrote
    Satanic verses or think about the Danish Cartoon incident. Arab and Iranian
    newspapers are full vile anti semitic cartoons. anti christian, and lots
    of anti American hate speech. The same enemies of israel are trying to pass resolutions in the U.N. outlawing any speech offensive to religion. what they mean, is they want to stifle any criticism of Islam. In Their own countries they freely defame non moslems

    This all goes back to my first post on this page. The Leftists, support a movement that not only is not in concordance with their beliefs but also
    would actively stifle such beliefs. While Israel is a democracy.
    It's easy to find israel haters in Israel because Israel has free speech.
    But there's one exception, Hate speech is outlawed. So if someone were
    to say moslems are lying pigs that would be hate speech in Israel.
    but in "Palestinian" controlled areas thats what they say about Jews.

  40. slpsa

    Agreed 100 per cent Jack. It shines through as a central and polarizing situation amongst the trouble spots around the world. All because of different flavors of sky fairy's. Sad that in this day and age, those two sides cannot put aside their differences and live together like we do in Canada. You have emigrated and grown up here, I am sure you understand it is not that hard to get along, and people just accept you for who you are, not what color of fairy you worship. There are always exceptions, but the majority of us live and let live. You have lived that experience. It really is not all that hard. They need to learn that too.

  41. slpsa

    And somehow, the Palestinians are right? Yup, another biased one who cannot see the forest for the trees. As long as you also, do not mind being wrong yourself, touche man.

  42. slpsa

    And I can independently confirm, you are pro Israel, completely biased on the facts, and certainly blind to the point, one side is no better than the other. I think most people understand that killing innocents on both sides is wrong, and that both sides have a propaganda machine that never stops churning. I think most informed people understand the whole thing. Those that do not live with bias that is. The rest pick sides and argue their moral stance. My moral compass has never failed me yet, I say you who blame the other are blindly assuming many things, and completely ignoring what you are supposed to teach your children to have them grow up as good human beings. Two wrongs, do not make a right. It is really a childhood lesson some of you need, because talking sense and speaking truth do not mix well with totally biased individuals. It is almost as much a waste of debate as convincing the fairy people that their fantasies are exactly that.

  43. slpsa

    They are weak. They need a big brother to look out for them, you have any idea who that might be? They want to start WW3 but do not have the means to finish it. They would like others to do their dirty work for them. The same can be said of the other side as well. They want others to do their dirty work for them. You know who that might be? I do, I bet you do too. Hence the same outcome exists. They are both wrong and no better than kids having a tantrum, over the sky fairy's and land that neither can prove they own.

  44. slpsa

    You aren't. He is clearly trolling, the name about spells it out for us.

  45. slpsa

    What is with the neutral readers thing? As if we discard others posts because you say only neutral people can respond? From what I am reading, you are not neutral, so why try pretending you are neutral? This is the problem, with you paid schills, you seem to think many of us actually listen to the tripe you are typing, and somehow ask us ignore the intelligent, actual, real neutral posters. This nonsense you are asking us to confirm and check the facts of, is in fact, old news/propaganda/lies to many of us. There are so many educated and informed posters who are regulars around here, who have already studied this situation upside down, sideways and backwards. You are regurgitating the words of many before you. We know who the neutral people are, you are addressing some of them as if they are not, as we speak. When you can say you are neutral and type something that would suggest such an outlook, you may be taken seriously, until then, it seems as though you are indeed, being paid to type this BS or rolling on the troll train to nowhere.

  46. walterr44

    But I never said i was neutral.
    What i'm doing is, cautioning any neutral reader who happens upon this site to look at both sides. Because most of the comments here are anti israel such as yours. I'm trying to provide a balance.You say i'm regurgitating the words of others before me. Of course I am, because they are true. And the case against israel is a regurgitating of old lies. I'd rather repeat old truths.

  47. dmxi

    way too much sky fairy's around....

  48. slpsa

    in your own mind they are old truths. My comments are anti Israel, and they are also, anti Palestinian, equally so. So fence sitting is not allowed by your standard of debate? One has to be wrong? Not both of them? How logical. You stand alone from where I sit at this debate. Noone is talking the good trash like you. Biased trash based in either faith in sky fairy's or just plain ignorance. Of course, the poor Israeli's are the victim, always. Please, enough tripe. We see through the AIPAC disguise. You are not new, only the same as others who have come before you. Neutral readers would be best served to ignore your lies. I do not think many people are uninformed about this problem. It is hard to ignore when it is in our faces everyday. Your view of it would taint a only a stupid humans outlook, or as you put it, a neutral reader. They would have to be pretty stupid to believe your words. Anyone with an ounce of decency and intellect knows two wrongs do not make a right, and they act like bully's, both sides. I feel no different about the Catholic/Protestant problem in Ireland as I do this problem. Sky fairy's cause it all, none has a right to take innocent life, one is not right above the other. Get rid of the sky fairy people and half the problem disappears. We need a big toilet to flush down those types and along with them, people like you, who poison this planet with vitriol, lies and outright intolerance of others. Your parents did an awful job with you, they should not be proud of raising an intolerant, racist child.

  49. walterr44

    Neutral readers,
    sift through Slspa's rant below and try to find one fact in that hodge podge
    of Ad hominem attacks. Then look at my comments and count the facts and verify.
    Shalom to all people of good will

  50. slpsa

    It was hardly a rant. More like morally on target. Too bad you racist pieces of human trash do not get it. Enjoy your fantasy's.

  51. slpsa

    You guys ever notice the really devout bunnies speak in third person? And speak to people who are not there? It does surprise me somewhat, this link they all share, but shock me, not at all. LOL. You racist bunnies are even more reprehensible than regular bunnies. A cut above the rest of the ignorance scale. AIPAC pay you well?

  52. slpsa

    and that is slpsa to you bud, no capital s, and spelling it correctly would also work.

  53. TheRealMax

    John Pillinger covered this issue a few years ago.
    There is, no doubt, Palestinian issues that are ignored by the UN.
    And us.

  54. Another21stCenturySlave

    its palestine.....israel is the most devious nation on earth...1 day it will fall foul of the yanks & the brits, as they are the targets of the majority of the israeli false flag missions - the rest being acts of treason - & when that happens the walls will cime tumbling down around those murderin b'stards.....that is an anti-israel post; so what?

  55. Efritt

    stop saying "to neutral readers" and not replying the person you are talking about in hope he wont check back and reply.
    Not a single thing you said is a fact, so stop kidding yourself.

    To the other: yes both sides have propaganda but nothing is compared to the Israeli propaganda machine that has been working for decades, while the Palestinians have relatively only recently realized they need to play the game.
    Hasbara and all the lies they spread with one purpose: Make it look like a complicated problem while they spread settlements and control over the west bank. just like the "peace negotiations"of wasting time since Israel never wanted real peace.
    Its not so complicated, in fact i think its simple.

  56. flexi28

    Israel's oppression of the Palestinians is nothing short of disgusting. when this happened anywhere else in the world the right authorities get involved and sort it out. i.e. south africa apartheid, america etc. if there is "arab aggression" against Israel then why have the world authorities told them to take down that massive dividing wall that spirals in and around and surrounds the illegal purpose build settlements on palestinian land. what Israel has been doing to these people since 1947 is a disgrace and illegal.

  57. walterr44

    To neutral readers

    The so called Palestinians have a huge disinformation campaign.
    The neutral reader can verify that Saudi Arabia has spent millions
    of dollars. The Saudis have also spent money setting up courses in Arabian studies in American Universities ostensively for cultural purposes but also for anti Israel propaganda. Iran has a huge well funded propaganda machine preaching hatred not only against Israel
    but also the United States.

    To neutral reader.
    Israel never wanted real peace??? Nonsense

    1. Israel accepted the partition plan of 1947. the Arabs refused
    2.After 1967 Israel offered to withdraw from almost all liberated lands
    in exchange for recognition from the Arab states and peace.
    The Arabs held the Khartoum conference and vowed eternal war.
    3. Israel ceded the entire Sinai for a peace treaty with Egypt.

    Israel also forcibly evicted its own citizens from settlements there
    That treaty is now in doubt. I hope that if Egypt violates the treaty
    Israel will take back the Sinai.
    4. Israel relinquished most control of Samaria and Judea
    and allowed self government in there. the same is true for Gaza.
    What occupying power allows the so called occupied to
    have a government that is hostile to the so called occupier?
    5. Olmert offered Arafat almost all the territory in Judea and Samaria
    to the so called "Palestinian' state, even though that territory
    was legally Israel's through the League of Nations mandate.
    Arafat responded with a reign of terror

    6. Israel recognized the validity of a two state solution but the
    so called Palestinians don't recognize Israel as a Jewish state
    Their charter of 1968 calls for the destruction of Israel.
    Arafat said that if he moved to change that charter he's be killed.

    Dear Neutral reader,
    these are just a few of the FACTS that show that Israel wants peace and the so called Palestinians want mayhem and destruction. They are not rants that can't be verified . There is much more. go check it out neutral reader.

  58. Jack1952

    If you read the Palestine charter, you will find that Islam is the defining ideology of its existence. The charter reads like a religious text. It states quite clearly that it believes that this area is a Muslim state historically and that they are determined to return it to a Muslim state. Islam is everything. Without it there is no struggle. It is what unites them, encourages them, and even provides reasons to hate the Jews.

  59. Efritt

    You mean Hamas' charter?
    Hamas was founded in 1987, after years of occupation, and they were supported by Israel so they can rival Fatah. Just another aspect of Israel's time stalling.
    Military wing formed in 92'.

    You are probably payed to do this, and you talk about Palestinian and Iranian propaganda. Israel are the masters of propaganda. Israeli "Hasbara" is a well thought out science of lying and distorting reality to promote Israel. Either portraying Israel as the complete innocent victim, or making everything seem so complicated just to confuse people.
    "Dear Neutral reader", you realize how pathetic you are?

    I wont list answers to your historical lies. anyone who wants to know more can check youtube for people like Norman Finkelsein, a Jew banned from entering Israel. Also Ilan Pappe and Noam Chomsky.
    Then you can listen to dibates, or people representing the other side. Make your own judgement.

    The truth should be known so that true peace can be achieved. Stop the annexation of land, by the illegal wall or settlements. You talk about peace while building settlements and expanding the occupation, those lies don't stick anymore, most people with a sense in their heads know whats going on.

    Israel needs to change its Zionist policy: pretending they want peace while working to insure control of as most territories, and to undermine any future possibility for a Palestinian state. Go for real peace for once! According to international law the west bank is occupied territory, and east Jerusalem is occupied territory. I don't understand what their plan is, wall and settlements. just google for a map of the wall, its crazy.

    I can go on forever...
    I'll leave it to people to research and judge for themselves.

  60. Glen Grehan

    Converse is true of Judaism and Jews in Israel. Religion is fundamental to almost every struggle and conflict in human history. Notwithstanding, a resolution is possible. So many similarities can be drawn with this conflict and Northern Ireland. Religious divide, occupation, prolonged armed militant uprising. Northern Ireland enjoys a peaceful existence now. The conflict there, for the most part, has been settled. Religion is still central to peoples identity but now a mutual respect for difference and a sense of normality pervades.

  61. walterr44

    To the neutral reader.

    I am writing this for you neutral reader. I hope you go through
    this post and all my previous ones. You will see that I present my case
    with facts while the anti Israel commenter's present no facts
    but rather answer with ranting ad hominem attacks

    The Hamas charter was mentioned. Let me quote a part of article seven of the charter.

    "The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

    neutral reader,
    Does this sound like a group interested in peace?
    But this is an official document of this terrorist group.
    the Fatah charter doesn't call for genocide but is does call
    for war with Israel and rejects peace.
    The state of Israel has no doctrine calling for the extermination of a people,
    neither is its official policy to expel Arabs from Israel. In fact they have been made full citizens.

    Mention was made of Hasbara which you might call the ministry of truth for Israel. Actually it's the public diplomacy responsible for defending Israel against the lies perpetrated by the Arabs.

    Neutral reader, it has been alleged by one of the commentators on this page that "Israeli "Hasbara" is a well thought out science of lying and distorting reality to promote Israel." But what these lies are is not mentioned
    by this very misguided "commentator" Hasbara does not sanction lies.

    Neutral reader you might want to look up the meaning of Taqiyya.
    That really is a doctrine that advocates lying. According to this
    doctrine it's Allah's will that a moslem should lie to promote Islam.
    Neutral reader look it up. there is no analogous doctrine in Judaism.
    I must add that Taqiya is also being used by the assorted anti Israel
    commentators on this web site

  62. Jack1952

    Yes I meant the Hamas Charter, also known as the Palestine Charter, and subtitled the Charter of Allah: The Platform of the Islamic Resistance Movement. A religious document in the extreme.

    Both sides have to stop the finger pointing, accusations, name calling and the rest of the childish behaviour. I don't think a Jewish sympathiser needs payment to express his views. Such a claim leaves readers with the impression that you tend to paranoia and detracts from your message.

    As long as there are the extreme Zionists and those who follow the Hamas Charter there will be no peace in this region. You will get what you want. Complete destruction, of one side or both. Most reasonable people want a peaceful solution. Reason does not apply to the combatants in Israel or Palestine.

  63. Jack1952

    Religion is fundamental to all struggles because it is fundamental to the lives of the over whelming majority of people in history. It is impossible to understand the history of man without a clear understanding of religion, as well politics, economics, sociology and others. In most cases religion is an enabler of war. They may not cause it but most combatants use their religion as inspiration to success.

  64. Efritt

    What i meant was that it took years before some Palestinians went to religion, and its not surprising.
    About him getting payed, you are simply unaware of the extent of Israeli PR effort.

    making it look like a war between two equal sides may feel better but its not true.
    I want two states on the 67 border. Its actually what the law says, not happening thanks to America's veto. My problem is Israel acting as if they tried everything and that they want peace, while on the ground running an occupation and continuing the Zionist project of more land+less arabs.

  65. walterr44

    To the neutral reader.

    Much has been mentioned about a supposed 1967 border.
    there is no agreed on border. the 1967 so called border is the green line,
    an armistice line set in 1949. It was never intended to be a border. The border was to be negotiated later. but the Arabs went on a rampage for years
    so no peace could be negotiated. Actually the true border was the league of nations mandate , all land west of the Jordan river, but the Arabs through decades of murder and terror were able to prevent the true border of Israel from being set. The 1967 would be an indefensible border
    which would leave Israel with a 9 mile neck that could cut Israel in two in the event the Arabs attack again.It also leaves East Jerusalem out of Israel.
    East Jerusalem was for centuries known as the Jewish quarter. In 1949
    the Jews were expelled from there when Jordan occupied the west bank.
    Olmert offered Arafat almost all of the land to Arafat, as I stated
    in my previous post but the so called Palestinians went on another rampage.
    Neutral reader,
    the issue is not borders, were that the case the so called
    Palestinians could have set a nation anytime between 1949 and 1967.
    The real issue can be found in the Fatah and Hamas founding documents
    which, like Hitler's Mein Kampf, calls for the extermination of the Jews.
    That is the real issue.
    Neutral reader The issue is the rightful existence of Israel versus the Arab goal to destroy it.

  66. Bryon Franzen

    a Nation based on Racial purity and none diversification...great idea..when was the last time that was tried?

  67. walterr44

    Are you talking about the Palestinians who specifically don't want jews living in Israel and call for the death penalty for anyone who converts to christianity? Who declare that only one belief is the true belief and all others are evil (Hamas)

    Or are you talking about israel where Arab moslems were made
    full citizens of . Where everyone is free to practice their religion. Where thousands of dark skinned Ethiopian Jews
    found refuge. a country that has laws against preaching race hatred.

    The former resembles Nazi germany. The latter resembles its remedy

  68. Noname Unknown

    Have you seen the land divide, what partnership could they ever have. They'll go sooner or later.

  69. Lastviewer

    To Walterr44

    So much for for misleading comment.
    Palestinian who don't want Jews to live in Gaza?
    First, where on planet earth is Palestine according the rest of world? It's not recognized as a country, so...?
    2nd) Else, you don't have much of memory, or you're quite young because there's obviously a lack within your comment as to: - How was the relations between Arabs & Jews during the whole 1900's century? Say, just a little before 1914 for instance? Better yet, before the "Balfour Declaration", Huh? You got a very short sight.

    You're filth is not being able to see the nature of the nature of the beast, namely the human being. This isn't related to race, religion or anything alike. The Jewish nation has gave to humankind the greatest lesson one could expect from our short lifes: -Even after living though hell as it was the case from 1940-1945, human being will do the exact same thing, provided that the opportunity allow it. Else, as long as some "God" once said (Hear/Say) that this or that land will once be the land of his favorire nation.
    Human being haven't change much since 100,000 years.

    "My Inner God" tells me that you are biaised.

  70. Lastviewer

    As far as I remember, what could be considered as the "Oldest" last time was in some big book in which an unknown or vague third party said tjat his "Only god" once told him that this or that land will all be for his son and descendants. Anyhow, all other living individuals were not fit for his planned heaven.

    A bit of the same thing that all Monarchies used along the thousands of years humankind existed. Only those chosen really had worth.

    In some and many cases since the industrialisation, other means of that "Being the special elected" took over.
    For example, communism or dictatorism as seen in North Korea.
    There are good means (Systems) and there are worst ones.
    It only depends upon upon the "Elite" that many calls "Diaspora".

    Pretty simple to see along the centuries.

  71. walterr44

    To the Neutral reader

    I will no longer present a point by point rebuttal to all the nonsense
    presented by the coterie of Israel bashers because all of them
    were rebutted in my previous posts on this page and I'm
    not going to answer ad hominem attacks

    I will offer a comment on the following,
    "How was the relations between Arabs & Jews during the whole 1900's century? Say, just a little before 1914 for instance? Better yet, before the "Balfour Declaration", Huh? You got a very short sight."

    Throughout history generally speaking the Moslem world tolerated
    the Jews, because like Christians they were "people of the Book."
    But neither christian no jew was considered a full citizen or an equal to
    a moslem. Though the general record was one of tolerance there were from
    time persecutions of both Jews and christians.
    Other non moslems were actively presecuted

  72. Jack1952

    And with that attitude we will see nothing but death and destruction until everyone in that corner of the world is dead or maimed. A worthy end to a worthy cause.

    You come from a stance where everyone is pigeon-holed by race, religion, colour, ethnicity or some type of label. We're human beings and don't say they started it. Humanity has the means to destroy everything and that destruction will not come by those who start it but by those who finish it.

  73. slpsa

    Like I said Jack, the biased ones like Dear Mr Neutral Reader would not make very good parents. Their parents did an awful job it seems as well. They cannot understand one of the basic ideas you teach young children. Two wrongs do not make a right. So, that being said, responding in any meaningful way to their tripe is verbal masturbation, with no feelings of satisfaction awaiting the end of the conversation. The biased ones are pretty much the same as the religees, it is a massive waste of energy trying to use logic and morality in any debate.

  74. walterr44

    Dear Neutral reader.

    One of the commentators recited one of the most banal statements,
    "Two wrongs do not make a right."
    This trite expression is used often whenever Israel takes steps to defend
    itself. It's used far less often about the Palestinians when their suicide
    bombers kill innocents.

    Neutral reader,l why is defending yourself yourself a wrong?
    The steps Israel takes to protect its citizens are steps that any nation would take when faced with a murderous enemy that deliberately targets woman
    children. I have been called biased by some biased commentators.
    True, I'm biased. I never said I wasn't I'm biased on the side of a democracy while most of the other commentators are biased in favor of Islamofascists
    who advocate war and genocide.

  75. dmxi

    only the weak & the hurt turn to bias-rhetoric, due to their dire need of comforting...
    ...that they are worth-while!

  76. dmxi

    how can someone 'un-neutral' expect 'neutral' attention ?

  77. slpsa

    With all due respect Walter, nowhere did I advocate war and genocide. You are now treading into a place where you make up your facts and put words in others mouths and make their statements what you want them to be. For this reason, you are not being taken seriously by anyone here, but your one supporter. In fact, your comment is so asinine, it is laughable. Please carry on appealing to the readers who are not here, we love when crazy nutjobs entertain us. If your outlook was not so ignorant, it would be satire. But sadly, many of us do not find racist trash funny, at all.

  78. walterr44

    To the neutral reader

    I never said that slpsa advocted genocide. I stated Hamas advocates genocide
    and he seems to ignore that fact. This issue is a red herring

    I haven't put words in anyone's mouth. Quoting someone is not putting words
    in anyone's mouth

    " For this reason, you are not being taken seriously by anyone here, but your one supporter."
    thank you one supporter it's quality that's important not quantity. For once slpsa is offering a fact. Except for my one intelligent supporter no one here supports me. But that fact is just about the only accurate fact he's ever given. The rest of his arguement consists of ad hominem attacks.

    "But sadly, many of us do not find racist trash funny, at all."
    Neutral reader
    ask yourself what racist trash have I presented?
    And also ask yourself isn't an attack on the Jewish state without
    any legitimate evidence to back it up a racist attack.
    Isn't it racist to ignore all evidence of malfeasance on the part of
    the so called Palestinians and on the other hand totally distort Israel's
    attempt to defend itself.

    Neutral reader.
    I'm well aware that most of the commentators here are against me.
    I am also aware from their statements that they are anti Semites.
    I don't present this as a fact but as an opinion based on their comments
    which do not answer my factual presentation.
    That's why I'm addressing you neutral reader and not the bigots who babble on this page. Once again use my previous posts to ascertain the objective truth that Israel is rightly defending itself aginst an enemy that not only is wants to destroy not only Israel but also the United States and the concept of liberal democracy.

  79. Jack1952

    The one telling difference between the two is that Israel, as a nation, does not have as a mandate the destruction of Islam in Israel. The Hamas Charter specifically advocates as a primary goal the destruction of the Jews. They may be a little more honest in their goals but they will not allow for any dissension among their fellow Muslims. In Israel, one is free to express his personal views, even if they don't agree with the national consensus.

  80. slpsa

    The last refuge of scoundrels comes easily to you as a breath of air does it not? We disagree with your drivel and we are Anti-Semites. Of course, i mean who knew you would pull that card. It was not predictable at all. No. Not at all. I think for the most part, we are done with this discussion, nothing intelligent to say anymore, you pulled the victim/race card. Enough said. Hasbara for The Win. We know.

  81. slpsa

    I think what Mr Neutral Reader guy misses, is there really are no neutral readers. And if there are, the spin put on his version of things are far from reality and certainly biased, hardly would that type of propaganda sway any intelligent person's opinion. An abused person without counseling, always wants to be the victim. Israel and the Palestinians are both exhibiting the same sort of behavior. Both play the victim, both unable to understand their own behavior carries on this situation. Enough said, The non existent neutral readers have probably seen and heard enough by now, all none of them. The biased AIPAC type tripe is seen through like a pane of glass. You fool noone.

  82. walterr44

    To Neutral reader.
    All people have their biases, for only a zombie can go through life without biases.
    But not all people are interested in the same things, and you neutral
    reader haven't been following the assault on Israel very closely and so know
    little about the conflict. It is you that write. I don't
    want you to be mislead.

    It's monotonous but I'll repeat. If you examine my previous posts you will
    see that I gave facts that can be verified by you. The anti Israel side
    if they did give facts were cherry picked ones which I countered
    with the truth. The rest od their arguements consists of extreme leftist
    and Arab fundamentalist propaganda accompanied by ad hominem attacks
    most of which consist of crackpot psychology.

    True, I made what could be considered my own ad hominem attack.
    I called the anti Israel commentators here anit semites. If you go back and read that post, neutral reader, you will see that I was careful to state
    that it was an opinion not a fact. Unlike the anti Semites who babble
    about Israel's supposed atrocities as fact but which can't be substantiated.

    I call it as i see it. Arguendo, even if half the libels against Israel were true
    they still would not amount to the horrors the Chinese inflicted on Tibet,
    the Turks have inflicted and still inflict on the Kurds, the caste system
    in India, the Native americans in south america and so on, and on.
    But only Israel has received such a singular focus with world wide
    boycotts and protests by the knee jerk left and some neo nazi groups.
    (though I think there is little difference between them).
    But the tragedy is that libels are entirely false. the atrocities are committed by the the so called Palestinians, who like "honest Iago" in shakespeare's Othello accuse Israel of what they're guilty of.

    Ah yes AIPAC so often brought up by the anti semites. The anti semites modern version of the Protocols of Zion. So far this way too moderate
    group of appeasers has only done what hundred of other lobbying groups
    have done, lawfully lobby congress. Of course the anti semites froth at the
    mouth at this while ignoring the Arab Oil money pumped into american universities to poison the minds of amrerica.

  83. walterr44

    To Neutral reader.
    All people have their biases, for only a zombie can go through life without biases.
    But not all people are interested in the same things, and you neutral
    reader haven't been following the assault on Israel very closely and so know
    little about the conflict. It is you that write. I don't
    want you to be mislead.

    It's monotonous but I'll repeat. If you examine my previous posts you will
    see that I gave facts that can be verified by you. The anti Israel side
    if they did give facts were cherry picked ones which I countered
    with the truth. The rest of their arguments consists of extreme leftist
    and Arab fundamentalist propaganda accompanied by ad hominem attacks
    most of which consist of crackpot psychology.

    True, I made what could be considered my own ad hominem attack.
    I called the anti Israel commentators here anit semites. If you go back and read that post, neutral reader, you will see that I was careful to state
    that it was an opinion not a fact. Unlike the anti Semites who babble
    about Israel's supposed atrocities as fact but which can't be substantiated.

    I call it as i see it. Arguendo, even if half the libels against Israel were true
    they still would not amount to the horrors the Chinese inflicted on Tibet,
    the Turks have inflicted and still inflict on the Kurds, the caste system
    in India, the Native americans in south america and so on, and on.
    But only Israel has received such a singular focus with world wide
    boycotts and protests by the knee jerk left and some neo nazi groups.
    (though I think there is little difference between them).
    But the tragedy is that libels are entirely false. the atrocities are committed by the the so called Palestinians, who like "honest Iago" in shakespeare's Othello accuse Israel of what they're guilty of.

    Ah yes AIPAC so often brought up by the anti semites. The anti semites modern version of the Protocols of Zion. So far this way too moderate
    group of appeasers has only done what hundred of other lobbying groups
    have done, lawfully lobby congress. Of course the anti semites froth at the
    mouth at this while ignoring the Arab Oil money pumped into american universites to poison the minds of amrerica.

  84. walterr44

    Neutral reader

    A true adovate for Israel would never advocate atacking
    innocent Moslems. Only the ones who support the annihilation
    of Israel and the use of terror thoughout the world.

  85. slpsa

    When you admit there are problems with killing innocents on both sides, and meet me half way, perhaps this could have been civil. Instead you blame one side, and one side only. I am no supporter of religion if it matters. Any of them. Regardless, we get the point. You are biased, any other opinion is anti- Semitic, therefore, there is no debate. You are right. End of. I hope they paid you well for this.

  86. richard wilmot

    How much does Hamas suck... more than Israel... but not by much.

  87. 4Christ

    Perpetutaion od PRPAGANDA.

  88. slpsa

    Indeed. As we see, neutrality is another word for anti-Semite according to Mr Neutral Reader guy.

  89. RileyRampant

    Israel has all the cards.

    Its hard to play victim when you have all the cards. But, amazingly...

    some folks will buy anything. In the USA, that's a solid majority of the population.

    We are not an overly discerning lot, unless it matters to us for some venal reason or another. Palestinians don't count for much here, no one really cares about their history, their present, their future, their human rights.

    Read today's article in the NYT by Dayan. According to this person, everyone - Israeli or Palestian - is pretty much satisfied with the status quo. Funny stuff.

    Jack1952, the critical difference between the two is that one has a state, massive armaments, us diplomatic cover, power, borders, dignity - the other has none. Go back and take another look. At least, come up with your own take, rather than the tired propaganda line. Angry words are all the Palestinians have been left with. And those are used to continuously oppress & dispossess them. Its really a nasty business one shouldn't be a part of legitimizing.

  90. saloom

    It is really mind-boggling how much damage Israel has caused to the Palestinians - be it the economy, the environment, their physical well-being or the trauma and stress they cause every day. Israel steals, robs, plunders, attacks, destroys and murders and gets away with it on a daily basis and on top of all Israelis claim to be the victims. Amazing.....

  91. 1Superstudent

    What REALLY blew me away was those por souls in the jail
    who were only using drugs and would be executed after being
    in there for one year...

    Amazing that anyone would tolerate such oppresive and
    inhumane Islamic law...

    As bad how they put Allah this, Allah that BULLSHIT
    into their dialogue...

    And so much for wwomens rights, 6 years in prison for
    having a child out of wedlock...
    What an oppresive regimea

  92. walterr44

    I guess the truth hurts

  93. slpsa

    Typical ignorance. Good move on exposing your agenda. You admit openly, having a neutral stance on this issue makes a person anti-Semitic. You did my job for me, exposing you and people like you as the human trash you are. As racist and ignorant as a human can be and yet you have the gall to address people as neutral readers and implore them to listen to you. You belong at a KKK meeting with a white hood on your head, you would fit right in. Your type makes me want a barf bag. Your total stupidity and lack of morals and intellect are astounding, but not surprising given the total amount of Bs you have posted throughout this thread. Your propaganda is sickening, only outdone by your feeble attempt to sound honest and educated. You are one thing and one thing only. Racist trash.

  94. walterr44

    Neutral reader

    Read the post by slpsa. I don't have to say anymore. I don't have to prove my points. slpsa is a far better spokesman for Israel than I could ever be.

  95. walterr44

    neutral reader

    Some poker advice

    When Arafat started the intifada instead of accepting Olmert's offer
    the "Palestinians" threw away aces and picked up deuces.
    So the "Palestinians" instead of getting a full house got an unroyal flush. And now all they can do is bluff.

  96. oklima

    Well said.

  97. oklima

    I had a good laugh reading your biased, extremist garbage. It's sad, though, that anyone can be so warped to think like this.


    THE EGYPTIANS should of killed MOSES. HITLER was right. the KHAZARS should be sent to the sun. Harsh but at least we can start to rebuild the country together united as an equal. ZIONISM IS THE PROBLEM!

  99. Happybirthdaysanta

    You know what would solve all of there problems on both sides.. the core of both of their religions "FORGIVENESS" AND to see each other as human not Jew or Palestinian... this applies to everyone around the world too.. "HELLO" where all human....

  100. bringmeredwine

    The poor girl was probably raped.
    What happened to the child's father?
    I hate how women are treated under male-dominated oppressive regimes.

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