Namibia: Genocide and the Second Reich

Namibia: Genocide and the Second Reich

2005, History  -   142 Comments
7.09
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Ratings: 7.09/10 from 54 users.

Namibia: Genocide and the Second ReichA hundred years ago, three quarters of the Herero people of the German colony of Namibia were killed, many in concentration camps.

Today, the descendants of the survivors are seeking reparations from the German government. This film tells for the first time this forgotten story and its links to German racial theories.

Described by the BBC as the story of Germany's forgotten genocide. This powerful documentary by David Adetayo Olusoga took a sensitive and uncompromising look at the tragic circumstances leading to the massacre of three quarters of the Namibia population in German concentration camps built in Africa.

The programme included graphic reconstructions and did not shirk from showing disturbing scenes which revealed the savagery of european colonial ideology put into practise.

The documentary also showed the 2004 footage of Germany's ambassador to Namibia expressing regret for their killing of thousands of Namibia's Hereros during the colonial era. Unsurprisingly, the Germans refused to agree to the justifiable calls for reparations.

The programme also explored the current call for land reforms where most of Namibia's commercial land is still owned by european farmers who make up 6 percent of the country's population of 1.8 million.

Throughout it included interviews and powerful testimony from African survivors, descendants and reparation movement representatives thus making this a compelling programme which both educated the audience whilst treating the sensitive subject matter with the respect it deserved.

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Rick Montz
Rick Montz
4 years ago

I am 72 years old and have never heard of this. Man's inhumanity to man is an awful thing...

Tim
Tim
6 years ago

@ Baldwin Thecrusader, wrt Eugenics let us not leave out Sir Charles Darwin, Sir Francis Galton, Friedrich Blumenbach, Carl Linnaeus, Margret Sanger, and that is just scratching the surface. let us not forget all the 'Family planning" programmes sponsored by various governments to support them African e.g. the Canadian government 'donating' to Africa 250 million for reproduction purposes...
Ps. You may want to re-check the whole title of the “Origin of Species”…
@ urban deadite, wrt to the Congo how we miss ol' King Leopold a very kind man (and country).
@ leanmv, yes History is written by the victors. For the conquered, that statement should tell you what you should be reading, else you end up believing lies.
I guess the Jews should not have received reparations? or the Germans should not have had to pay any reparation after the 1st world war? Are we being selective with reparations?
@ Matej "Problem isnt in white race. And that is pretty racist point of view from you." A racist will always call you a racist when you identify their racism.
And the my most important point wrt this documentary is directed to the AFRICANS, do not, and I repeat, do not, bother debating any European on such issues as the African Holocaust, you should raise the awareness of any and every African as to the nature of the European.
To you African the question is, if you see track hurtling down the street crushing and killing all in its way, would you stand in front of it, try stop the driver to reason and be logical?? NO, you WARN your people that there is mad person behind the wheel and do what you have to defend yourself.

Baldwin Thecrusader
Baldwin Thecrusader
9 years ago

Ah, the German love affair with eugenics and genocide...

trumpsahead
trumpsahead
10 years ago

Wow, love these comments. I'm not going to watch it, came here by accident; but just finished watching "Adolf Hitler - The Greatest Story Never Told", which shows everything we know/have been told about Hitler is a LIE; another duping uncovered. I'm truly ecstatic to see these comments confirming we are really waking up to Truth. Trust no govt. Govts must be treated like junk yard dogs and no better.
There will be very rough times when we clash with govt but I am more certain than ever we will overcome and the future will be better than ever for our children. God bless America!
oh, check this out: Thegreateststorynevertold dot tv. it's a mind blower.

Jewel Maskal
Jewel Maskal
11 years ago

remember, we can be lied to effectively by anyone, especially those who have an interest in telling us what they want us to believe....
I do not trust most..... I do my own thinking.. and I do deep research to back it up...
Be careful... propaganda and psychology are very effective... and if you don't conform you can be eliminated... like Hitler did and the current liar in DC is planning for most of us... unless of course we buy his bull****

leanmv
leanmv
11 years ago

History is written by the victors... SAY NO MORE

Hanny Palmen
Hanny Palmen
11 years ago

The red dyed people (women) displayed a couple of times in this documentary are no Herero, but Himba, who live mainly in the north of Namibia ... if one makes a documentary about this subject, then please use footage of the Herero people!

urban deadite
urban deadite
11 years ago

I dont know of one Empire in History that has not done some form of Genocide including a lot of African nations too, Shaka Zulu (one of the worlds top Military commanders) did not carve an empire by throwing flowers around nor did the great fortress builders of Zimbabwe or Jenna.

What about what the Bantu are doing to the Mbuti/Baka /Aka peoples in the Congo??..one of the worst cases of genocide and slavery/rape/cannabalism as a scare tactic in Human History and its still going on.
A lot of peoples dont have written language in the past so its all kinda one sided.
All of this is wrong just wish people would see its a human condition that needs addressing and it is not just 'white' countries who have a Barbaric and Inhuman past.
One more thing the Slavic peoples have been enslaved more and for longer than anywhere in the world yet never hear about them or about the millions of white slaves in various North African and Ottoman Empires whose treatment was just as awful as African slaves.
What about all those Native African slavers that got stinking rich? there were thousands of them and they were a massive part of the equation, in fact when slavery was abolished several countries had too go to war against them they were so rich and powerful and would not stop slaving.

The Japanese in most of Asia in the 30-40's did horrific genocide and concentration camps or more horrific than the nazis also the sex slaves (so called comfort women) but they 'got' away with it....so much wrong not just the terrible African slave trade.
Slavery is still a BIG PROBLEM today in 2012.

Colours are not bad but people are.

All Slavery and Genocide done by ANY people of the World is wrong.

It is a shame that this is a repeated pattern through Human History for one excuse or another from all corners of Earth....

Dave Manzi
Dave Manzi
12 years ago

Africans are hard to finish! Every wealth and power hungry monster has tried to eliminate Africans, but they live on. God must have made us uniquely strong but above all, God has not allowed our extermination. Germans and all other colonialists are equally guilty of the sin of attempting to eliminate God by their actions wherever they extended their empires. But when i look at the Namibian case; I just wonder how evil these Germans were!

Yusiley S
Yusiley S
12 years ago

Some people always say there are two topics that evoke such a strong negative emotion that it is impossible to reach any conclusive agreement... those topics being government and religion. I believe there is a third... race.

pp bn
pp bn
12 years ago

Typical BBC report, a lot of emotional music and very Anti-German. Fails to mention that Nambia receives approx. 14 Mill. Euros funds pa.. That might be the reason why reparation are out of the question (which would go to the Hereros only).

And of course we still have to struggle with our history today. How could it be otherwise. Thanks for the hint BBC.

BTW, the scientific racist movement at that time was not limited to Germany, say hello to the Brits and the US.

April Kennedy
April Kennedy
12 years ago

How is this any dif. that what America has done to the Native Americans? Drive them into worthless lands,starve them and murder them to take there land. Lets not act like Germany is the only "bad guy" that takes what is not theres.

Guest
Guest
13 years ago

i have a dream.....to put in reality....going to Namibia to explore the Namib desert and the extending Kalahari desert and to look eyes in eyes in the faces of the inhabitants of this beautiful country.
az

Milton Louw
Milton Louw
13 years ago

Thanks for a well researched documentary. These, and many other issues are still be worked through by me and my fellow citizens.

First, as for compensation, the German government and the Namibian government have a very good relationship today as do the people of both nations. In fact, most of the funds available to black farmers come from German assistance. (I am sitting in Düsseldorf, Germany as I write this.)

Secondly, we have a policy of national reconciliation which still makes us a model for other countries on how people can, and should, live together.

Third, today my daughter is the Junior Mayor of Swakopmund.

Lastly, and unfortunately a question that will be asked, I am not white or German in origin. I am a coloured and was the person who raised the flag over Windhoek the first morning on Independence.

Matej
Matej
13 years ago

@Curser
Problem isnt in white race. And that is pretty racist point of view from you. Problem is in people overall. All people act that way. Europeans were just more advanced in tech so they have enslaved africa south america etc.
But this is ?new? history from which we have writen doucuments and pictures.
What about Tatar invasion in Europe, or Mongol invasion? Or Turks? So many pillages, killings, destroyed futures.
Or , what about ethnic cleansning between Idia and pakistan? Nobody talk about that. Or tibet, or boxer rebellion.
So, you can see that there are a lot more examples of hate between people.
From our past we can try to learn not to make same mistakes but i think humanity is failing doing that.

curser
curser
13 years ago

@Jeigh

Africans never migrated....
“The Journey of Man” is a another big lie, another big fabrication of white man to justify economic globalization...

curser
curser
13 years ago

The White race ain't human but vampire, blood suckers, they even feed their offspring's with Innocent blood. until white race exits genocides shall prevail and the planet earth shall always suffer...............

will
will
13 years ago

@clix
*i accidently hit "add comment to soon"*
but on the issue of epigenetics... i would have to say its possible.
There is alot of latent agression in western society. like the direct eye contact someone mentioned earlier. its posible that that eye shape could have something to do with it.

will
will
13 years ago

I really cannot understand why someone would say reparations are not due in this instance. If the German government refuses the pay the Namibians the 2 million they ask for then shouldn't the Nambibians have the right to simply take their land back from the European settlers like what happened in Zimbawe? there is no reason why 50% of the good land in Namibia should be owned by a minority group. It would be better for the Germans to pay the Namibians the money they asked for so that they can legally buy the land for a fair price....

@clix
i certainly hope its not caused by genetics. i have always thought atrocities like this are the result of Charles Dawin's theory on evolution. His theorys gave people 'justification' to belive that they were somehow evolutionary superior than each other. they led to eugenics and genocide and i think that deep down alot of people still apply "the orign of species" to humans.
but anyway do you think its genitic?

clix
clix
13 years ago

@williamstoni

Who is fighting over Jesus today? I thought we're fighting over oil and other vital resources.

Also, curiously (not judgmentally), how can you reconcile proud service in the military and progressivism? Progressive thought assumes the concept of armed struggle is an antiquated way of resolving conflicts, if not an aberrant one. What do you find to be proud of your military service? How do you think the military you served in cannot be used in the manner the German Reich used its military?

clix
clix
13 years ago

@Will

This discussion is not over. You can still jump in.

Yes, it is unfortunate that such discussions have to deteriorate to name calling at times. But, that's the nature of the medium.

So, what say you? Do you agree that there are genetic or at least epigenetic variations among humans that predispose them for certain type of aberrant behavior similar to the Germans during the 2nd and 3rd Reich?

williamstoni
williamstoni
13 years ago

Definitions of reparation on the Web:
• compensation (given or received) for an insult or injury; "an act for which there is no reparation"
• (usually plural) compensation exacted from a defeated nation by the victors; "Germany was unable to pay the reparations demanded after World War I"
• repair: the act of putting something in working order again
• something done or paid in expiation of a wrong; "how can I make amends"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
• In jurisprudence, reparation is replenishment of a previously inflicted loss by the criminal to the victim. Monetary restitution is a common form of reparation. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparation_(legal)

In my humble opinion, I believe reparations are a controversial topic because there are many ways to describe this “concept” - as any quick web search will prove.

As a woman who served proudly in the U.S. Marine Corps for over eight years before being discharged honorably under medical conditions, I perceive the concept of reparations as a method of acknowledging past transgressions AND as an apology to a person/ people who have been victimized.

In essence: Does saying, “I’m sorry” suffice for theft, rape, torture, and mass genocide? When reparations are not awarded to victims, it seems to me that is exactly what we are saying… ‘it’ll be alright… time heals all wounds…”

In my opinion, time does not heal all wounds… at least, not by our standards! We are still fighting over Jesus’ death… and, that occurred over two thousand years ago!

It seems to me that our world will continuously suffer simply we are too weak to apologize with sincerity… because we cannot admit when we are wrong.

Our race (meaning human) will never heal… and, the vicious cycle of hurt will continue until we concede to our past… all of it… especially the painful periods… it is the only solution for a SHARED, healthy future!

There is absolutely no harm in repaying what is owed… It is the HUMAN thing to do!

Btw… after watching this documentary, I realized where Eisenhower borrowed the idea of the prison industrial complex from… the Germans!

that said... BE PROGRESSIVE... BE KIND!

Will
Will
13 years ago

@clix @jeigh @Menelik1&2 Wow...that was a damn good arguement. It's a little unclear why you guys were arguing in the first place, as you seemed to agree on the most fundamental concepts discussed (until u started making personal attacks). But I read the whole thing and I definatly learned a lot. I wish I could have joined in! Haha

clix
clix
13 years ago

@Jeigh

You're really not good at guessing. :-)

The word Selam is an Amharic equivalent of the Arabic Salaam and the Hebrew Shalom. It is not a westernized version of Salaam.

I feel for you man. Truly I do. You seem to have a visceral need to make sure everybody is like you. Yes, we're all genetically the same over 99% of the time. But we're also unique as in the finger prints of every individual on this earth. That's the beauty of humans and nature in general. We should reveal in that, not run away from it. I think you should too. Whether you're 'mixed' is irrelevant, as the most unique thing about you is you. Otherwise, why do you want to be like any of the other 6+ billion rascals roaming this earth?

I think the topic of race (or the absence of it) is an issue deeply personal to you, and I don't want to continue to appear callous by trivializing what is so important to you. I think we approach the whole argument from two polar opposites. My focus is not on what makes us (humans) similar. That's quite obvious to me. What fuels my intellectual pursuit is what makes us different despite much of our similarity. Your approach appears to be the exact opposite of mine. May be seeing the difference in our approach helps you understand I and others who focus on such differences are not the cancers of the world (or racist as you call us), but merely exploring our nature from a different angle than yours. I think it is certainly our prerogative to do so, whether you agree or not.

Selam.

Jeigh
Jeigh
13 years ago

Ahh...what you meant to say was Salaam. Your westernized spelling helps identify you more than you would wish. Perhaps now that you are no longer ignorant, you will also learn the word's true meaning. Since you are obviously a religious person (which you may also attempt to deny) I impart with you this:

"To God belongs the East and the West, Wheresoever you look is the face of God.(Sura 2:115)

And if that doesn't work for you, a little Rumi, my favorite poet:

"in the shop for Unity; anything that you see there except the One, is an idol."

You really should research the Genome Project. You are as "naturally" mixed as they come.

?? ????? ??? ??

clix
clix
13 years ago

@Marge

Considering that wealth accumulation is a multi-generational process, you don't think the current day German's have benefited from the actions of previous generations?

clix
clix
13 years ago

@Jeigh

You're becoming unhinged friend.

Again, my hypothesis is turning in to a theory by your actions. I think you do drive some delight from using the word 'racist'. Here you are espousing that there are no races of humans, but according to you anybody who doesn't agree with your popular culture informed version of history is a racist.

Here is a clue, history is about the past. This video is about the past. Therefore, this discussion is about the past. That is not equivalent with me living in the past. Now, that is an elementary theorem even you can understand.

Let me ask you, do you consider the makers of this video racists for 1) delving in the past 2) exploring a genocide attributed to Germans?

If you think you're wasting your time, stop wasting it. Again, a simple premise that seems to elude you.

Jeigh
Jeigh
13 years ago

@Clix. Once again you have shown me I am wasting my time.

I maintain and have maintained that nobody is innocent and everyone is guilty (with the exception of enlightened individuals that understand everything in the universe comes from one source.)

Your assertion that I rely on pop culture is even more laughable. The context of this film and our conversation has been over the past one-hundred years. And save your rederick about Native Americans, since you have stated; you are not of the Americas (possibly south?). I assure you; I am more invested in Native American culture than you could ever be.

I only call it like I see it, and by your own arguments, you are a racist. I have not changed from that platform, since I first called you, and your crony, racists.

You make incredible assumptions about people; that I was raised in the U.S; That mixed heritage people are confused (the majority of the world is of mixed heritage) And then; so you do not have to defend the fact that whatever heritage you come from will be mixed, you ask me to crawl through pages of your nonsense to discover who you are!

It is clear that your desperate attempts to defend your racist platform only result in political double talk, and an avoidance of the substance in your own arguments, which solidly plant you deep into the ground as a strong and proud purveyor of racism. If you are not a Bushman. Then you are of mixed ethnicity. Lie to yourself all you want... genetics don't lie.

Above all what has come across loud and clear is that you will do anything to defend your racism, as you so desperately cling to the argument of "taking a clear side" like "Malcolm X" in the end of you rant. I won't get into it with you about Mr. X, but life is about evolving. The plights of early black Americans are beyond any description of bravery or vigilance towards the destruction of racism. And the message that was conveyed, led to the building of a new paradigm which people can today stand on, and be truly free of racism. It is too bad you are eternally stuck in the past and its trappings, and more so working against what those leaders taught us.

In fact; you have much more in common with the former U.S. President Bush. You are the "deciders" we are either "with you or against you", the world is either "good or evil, right and wrong, black and white." Let your position sink you further into the muck of racism, as it has continually; with every word you have typed... and every person, you have type casted.

Then we get to where you once again dismiss the core of the argument (the origin of man) as recycled ****. This really shows your true colors. " Enough" you shout! Enough of the scientific data that shows that race is a complete myth and that my argument is racist.

And lastly what else becomes obvious over the course of these comments is that you are not only a racist... but a bit of a troll. It is paramount for you to do your very best to conjure up the hatred you find in yourself, in others. This in necessary for you to live with yourself, and to perpetuate the myth of racism you so gladly promote.

It will not work with me. I only feel sorrow for you. Sorrow that you are trapped in a prison you have so easily fallen into. Sorry that you have built the walls so thick, that you don't have the strength or vision to tear them down. Sorry that you will never experience the true meaning of humanity and fellowship, that both Mr. Martin Luther King Jr., and Malcolm X, worked and sacrificed everything for, so that you might have the chance to stand on higher ground.

I wont fall victim to your trappings again. You need to argue your point, to spread your hatred. That's how a mental disease works. I will only hope, that someday you may see the light. The light that so many who came before you gave up their lives defending; so that one day, it may light your way to the truth.

Marge
Marge
13 years ago

I disagree that the government of Germany should pay reparations. The guilty persons are dead -- why should the innocent pay?

And as for the U.S. doing the same thing in Iraq -- that is the most illogical "thinking" I have ever heard. Some people live and breathe hatred -- I never want to be like that!

clix
clix
13 years ago

@Jeigh

I am none of the above. I am not going to tell you my origin, as your hypothesis are much entertaining. However, you could simply make of my origin if you read my previous comments, but you don't seem to do much reading.

You seem almost excited to call people ignorant and racist. Why?

Regardless, it's ironic that you think Canadians are blameless. Talk about ignorance. Apparently you base your judgement of history on what is presented in popular culture. Canadians of European descent are as genocidal as their American ones. They have wiped out many nations of Native Americans from the land. What is left of the Native Canadians, they forcibly attempted to convert to their ways, leaving a traumatized and utterly destroyed culture still in existence today. For a person who relies so much on popular culture for historical information, you should have heard news stories a couple of years ago regarding the plight of Native Canadians their plight for redress. Canadians did not engage in slave trade because they have no use for slaves, as the land they occupied is barely arable. Also, with Americans doing the dirty work of empire building, Canadians don't have to get their hands dirty, while benefiting the spoils of the empire.

I don't think I am either racist nor terribly ignorant. You in your own words call me 'very intelligent'. Talk about confusion. Perhaps that comes from your mixed heritage. Most likely nothing to do with biology, racially mixed children born and raised in racially polarized countries like the U.S. are some of the most conflicted people. They suffer a great deal to straddle the chasm between right/left and black/white. Some, like you, find the politically correct middle ground to be a comfortable abode. Others, like Malcolm X, take a clear side. Either way, I don't envy your place. The world is to confusing as it is.

Finally, enough with the human origin crap. You're starting to sound like a broken record.

Jeigh
Jeigh
13 years ago

@clix I won't go into the details with you again about the origin of man. You don't seem to want to listen, and insist on continuing with the racist ideals and assumptions. I do, however recommend that you start at the top of this comment board and read. The answers you are looking for are there already. All people are easily capable of such atrocities. You really seem absolutely terrified of looking back into the real history of mankind and seeing the truth. That is all you would need to do, to start shedding the racism, but it seems that you need it. Its just who you are. (must be cultural or biological) But, I do have an actual question for you. Are you an American or a European? Or do you live, and has your family lived in Africa for the past thousand years. If your answer is American, then your own argument could easily be used against you. And just by the racist tone, and arrogance of your argument; I'm putting all my money on American. There is something culturally different about YOU, an American; That makes you more prone to go to war with foreign powers. Since you are judging these cultures by things they did 100 years ago I will judge you within the same guidelines, and say you are culturally predisposed to Violence. If you live in any European Country; replace cultures where needed. And while you are judging yourself as a warmonger, the only way that is possible by your own logic at this point; I assert that the only way you can avoid any of this blame, would to be Canadian. What is the deal there anyway? They are of European decent? They have a predominantly white make-up. Why haven't Canadians started war after war and tried to force their agenda down the worlds throat. Seriously. By your own logic, you should have a very good answer for me. And while we are at it; statistically you are more likely to have European ancestry, than not, if you are in fact an American. I suggest that you go have your DNA tested. Maybe then you will have some answers as to why you are so conflicted. But your argument. It is just completely wrong, and tired, an un-winnable. You are acting like John McCain with his stance on "Don't ask, Don't tell." You are very intelligent. Yet you insist on clinging on to all the hatred and ignorance that keeps racism alive and well. You are the incubator.

clix
clix
13 years ago

@Everyone's Wrong

Who's excusing the Iraq and Vietnam wars? If you mean the Americans, they are doing exactly what you're trying to do for the Germans. The genocidal acts of the Euro-Americans towards the Native-Americans is well documented as well.

All we're saying is, there is perhaps a cultural or biological tendency with Europeans that makes it more palatable for them to do such things.

Everyone's Wrong
Everyone's Wrong
13 years ago

Yes what the germans did in namibia and during world war 2 was awful and wrong. It just anger's me when everyone alway's tries to place ALL germans into one category.We are not all evil.Every race,religion,country,and government is guilty of killing and brutal behavior throughout history.It's just now you only hear about certain situations while other's are ignored or completely forgotten. Let's keep it fair folks! Ever notice how there are a million american made doc's about world war 2, yet only a handful of unbiased american made vietnam documentarie's. People like to focus on what shows them in a positive light, while ignoring the thing's that show them in a negative light. That's why you get lame ass excuse's for the vietnam war and the iraq war. Just trying to keep it fair that's all.

menelik1&2
menelik1&2
13 years ago

@jacob.Peace I never said they all are devils.But I do stand by my statement that they(those who did this) are devils.Surely you agree with that. Can you think of a better description I can't.Please man are you telling me after you saw this you said"Oh these are complicated individuals".Just say what it is those who did this are doing the work of who?[satan]which makes them what?[a devil]No matter what drives your moral compass Buda.Moses.Jesus.Mohammed.They would all say these people who did are devils.So please scroll up and review what I said I never said all.Peace.

Jacob
Jacob
13 years ago

The Europeans a race of devils? Erm please dont tar millions of people with the same brush - very ignorant. Europe contains a plethora of different people and perspectives, they are obviously not all devils, my nan certainly isn't, the real issue as with most things is power v's powerlessness (This is often an internal struggle as much as an external one). Basically though when you talk of groups of complicated individuals in this way you inadvertantly advance the kind of ignorance that can lead to such horror. Thanks.

menelik1&2
menelik1&2
13 years ago

@jeigh.Peace once again I would like to say I am not a racist.First let me say this being european is not soley determined by color I view it more as a mindset a way of thinking the way they think causes their behavior to be absulutely terrible as displayed in this film.Also I absolutely stand by my statement that you have devilish people in your family as do I and I thought I made it perfectly clear that no segment of the human family is exempt so all the africans kill africans and europeans kill europeans ect...is baseless in this discussion.So you say poverty and economics cause the problem but you don't see how their raping the people and the land has caused this.Yes african is the father of civilization, yes we all on the planet come from this place so technically your are correct so from now on lets speak on them as regional differences.But that still doesn't change the fact that those from that region have behaved for the past 600 years(I could go back further but i am trying to keep it relatively recent) like a pure devil enleashed on the planet do you deny this? Technology and sophisticated ways to enslave is there hope for the future.The Bible and Quran makes it perfectly clear that this is a spirtual war and man is in the middle doing the will of one of two sides.Satan knows he has lost so he goes after The Most High creation(The whole of creation) because he is well aware how much he cares for them and man so often do not know what they do. These facts are something for you to build on.I understand the situation that some bi-regional children find themselves in is difficult they carry the weight of both sides and I am well aware of the prejudice from both sides and I empathize with that.The film that clix spoke of the economic hitman i've seen and it proves they have no intention to change they are basically carring on a tradition of destruction and those who wish to live outside of their control are now terrorist and evil ect...I am not going to sit back and act like they don't have a trackrecord of murder,lying,and stealing.Maybe you don't have a concept of how bad these people are because you are not that way and this is how they have been able to do the things they have done because the indigenuos populations had no concept of this type of being.But we are beyond that now we no what they are capable of look around you.[and as a sidebar I do need people like clix but not for he reasons you believe.I need those like him for his temperance and sound wisdom]Peace.

clix
clix
13 years ago

@Jeigh

You sound like a kind person, and as such is difficult to be harsh with you. Copy/pasting an Oxford article, or any western academic article for that matter, in describing problems of Africa is tantamount to a salt-in-wound scenario.

I am not going to refer you to many scholarly articles by both western and non-western scholars that accurately paint the problems of Africa and who are responsible for fomenting them. Instead, I'd refer you to google and watch an extensive interview of John Perkins titled Confessions of an Economic Hitman. He is as idealistic as you are in his current life. However, his idealism comes from having seen the horrors inflicted by the west on the so called Third World countries.

You shoot yourself in the foot when you blame the victims in an attempt to correct the wrong done to them. Doesn't work for the rape victim, as it doesn't for the oppressed and downtrodden.

In my very first comment on this thread, I said this:

Unfortunately, even the well meaning of these group of people around the world have never been faced with this theory of their past, thus we often see the proliferation of right wing and racist movements across Europe and North America at hint of the slightest economic distress. The old beast awakens.

I know nothing of your background, but given your persistent attempt at being apologists gives me some indication. As such, be careful not to find yourself in that group of people I am speaking of.

Trust me when I say this, those who have been out in the cold never learned to sleep well. Even once inside, they sleep with one eye open. As such, it is disingenuous of you to tell them to wake up.

I bid you farewell.

Jeigh
Jeigh
13 years ago

@Clix

Anger is a natural step, yet an ancient tool of a passing paradigm. I have faced the darkest acts of man in this this world; many through the eves of a child of a child. I'm mixed, so I have had hatred flying at me from every direction, and faced things far too unspeakable to bring to this forum.

So I guess I was wrong; your going to keep the fire burning. I will however, remind you again.. All of humanity has descended from the Bushmen of Africa. All peoples heritage is African.

The history of Africa is just as drenched with the blood of war and conquest; it has been before, and since anyone got around to going back there. I'm not going to attempt to list all of the modern wars. Africans vs Africans that is. Of course; who knows what constitutes Modern African to you?

Here is an article from the Oxford University Press. Sure...you may think its a white washed institution; smart people from all walks of life however, tend to respect their well researched, and calculated hypothesizes. It's standing as one of the top twenty universities in the world, doesn't hurt either.

Abstract:

Contrary to popular belief, Africa's civil wars are not due to its ethnic and religious diversity. Using recently developed models of the overall incidence of civil wars in 161 countries between 1960 and 1999, we draw lessons with special reference to Africa, showing that the relatively higher incidence of war in Africa is not due to the ethno-linguistic fragmentation of its countries, but rather to high levels of poverty, failed political institutions and economic dependence on natural resources. We argue that the best and fastest strategy to reduce the incidence of civil war in Africa and prevent future civil wars is to institute democratic reforms that effectively manage the challenges facing Africa's diverse societies. To promote inter-group cooperation in Africa, specially tailored political governance and economic management institutions are needed, and we advance some hypotheses on the nature of such institutions. We suggest that Africa's ethnic diversity in fact helps - rather than impedes - the emergence of stable development as it necessitates inter-group bargaining processes. These processes can be peaceful if ethnic groups feel adequately represented by their national political institutions and if the economy provides opportunity for productive activity.- Oxford University Press.

I wont even bother mapping out all the war in Asia. It would take twenty hours of DVD footage to even come close. But, please, go out and educate yourself about the world, and it's conflicts a little more. Knowledge is the path to the freedom from racism you claim to seek.

I really don't understand why you invoke the names of Martin Luther King Jr. or Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi. Gandhi's early racism towards Africans, is a common known fact; Only when he accepted the path of Ahimsa (nonviolence and nonresistance) did he renounce the foolish misguidance of his earlier life. He stood up to tyranny with non-cooperation. Anyone can do the same with racism... alas; hating is so much easier though.

That's really all I have to say about it. Thanks for the conversation. It's much easier to bend in the wind, than to grow strong and sturdy. Good luck.

Some day I hope the both of you can wake to the true crimes against humanity and what drives them. $$$$ The rich are getting richer; and hatred is whats selling.

clix
clix
13 years ago

@Heather

"It’s true that a little knowledge is very a dangerous thing."

Apart from the fact that it is a tired cliche, it is often used to mask one's own knowledge or lack of it.

Would you like to elaborate how it applies to this documentary or subsequent discussion, before I presume the above is the case for you as well?

clix
clix
13 years ago

@Jeigh

With as far as menilik1&2 comments, I think I have distinguished between what I called chaff and essentially true. I acknowledged what I thought is truthful in his comment and disregarded the rest. That doesn't mean I condone what I did not directly repudiate. menilik1&2 also alludes that his response comes from a place of anger, anger against the Germans and many other Europeans who have perpetrated similar genocidal acts against many indigenous people around the world. Such anger must be acknowledged coming from those who have been wronged, not dismissed or belittled. I understand that anger. I had to work through that anger. I have said many things to people in anger in discussions similar to this that have ruined my relationships with them. Although most of those relationships needed to be ruined, I regret ruining some of them. I don't regret my walk with my anger, as it had taught me important things about me and the world in which I live.

Malcolm X and Mandela (the younger one) used their anger better than most people in advancing the causes of oppressed people. Others, like Ghandi and MLK advanced their causes from more calm positions. We remember all of them today for advancing their causes well, not as much for the means they employed.

Coming back to our humble discussion here, I think menilik1&2 advances his cause well, despite his apparent anger. His anger is something that he has to work out between himself and his God.

Heather
Heather
13 years ago

It's true that a little knowledge is very a dangerous thing.

Jeigh
Jeigh
13 years ago

@Clix,

Thanks for the very kind words; they made me feel good. Like I said, I have seen how similarly we view things, and I am only pulling away on that one small, yet pinnacle point.
Though my position may be critical, I still think it is , as it is absolutely necessary. It is too rare of a point of view.
I especially understand your historic perspective; as history is history unless manipulated. We have seen (above) how devastating that can be. One thing that makes my point of view easier; I hate things that are full of s#*%. I have always known that racism is full of %#*t, but even yet; I still saw traces of it in my own life. I'm sure you know the cliche, "everyone is a racist." Of course this isn't true, but it takes some serious work to rid yourself of the lie.
It's not any easier when society itself is so riddled with racism.
But honestly, it really is a farce, and anytime I made an assumption about someone; whether over color, or age, or sex; I checked myself, and I always ended up making judgments for no logical reason whatsoever.

This just leads to living life as a lie. Look at @Menelick's last comment to me. He is trying to play it off (his argument),as a righteous position, inspired by the the teachings of Jesus Christ.

He then goes on to accuse; "I'm sure you have some of that {the work of Satan}in your family!"

and further more assume," It's clearly apparent (sic) that you are European"

Why would he make such broad assumptions? With such content and condemnation? What kind of racist logic does he use to even make such an ignorant and baseless claim? Is it because I am intelligent? Or because I'm not jumping on the "Hate train" to nowhere?

Look at how blatantly racist that is.

So for me; you unwittingly help him perpetuate this hatred
by letting this ignorance slide, without calling it out for what it really is: Bull*^#*!

He even reinforces your acceptance of this racism, by implying your support for him in his last post.

See... he needs you. He even needs others to think you support his racism. He will be lost without it; and he is unable to see beyond it. That is the deceptive and manipulative nature of racism, that makes it so tricky to finally free ourselves from.

Your right there though; You seem ready to take the last step in my opinion.

And I (we) need you more.

jack1952
jack1952
13 years ago

@ Madskillz

Iraq has a population of 31 million and change. With a conservative casualty count of over 1 million that would be 1 Iraqi in 30 -- dead. That is an incredibly high casualty rate. There is a site, Iraqibodycount, that keeps a daily count of incidents involving civilians. The total stands at 108 thousand. It is still brutal. Like I posted, Iraq should never have been invaded but genocide is not an American objective there. I may not agree with that war but I will not use erroneous arguments to back up those beliefs.

menelik1&2
menelik1&2
13 years ago

@clix.Peace I'm glad you got the core of what i was saying.Similar to you i have relations with europeans in business and at times in my personal life. Still i will state the truth on any subject. If i state the sun is hot it doesnt mean i am anti-sun i am just stating the fact. There are those who do the will of The Most High out of every segment of the human family and there are those who do the will of satan out of every segment of the human family none are exempt, And i'm so glad you understood about China also sometimes its not easy telling people the truth.PEACE

menelik1&2
menelik1&2
13 years ago

@jeigh.Peace,i am not a racist for stating the truth.Truely all cultures kill, Cain killed Able. But what occurred in Namimbia was a whole hearted attempt to to wipe a people from the planet and for what reason? Because they where not going to take the raping of their sisters,mothers ,and daughters and over all barbaric and ungrateful treatment of the same people who dealt with them fairly and justly from the onset.I'm sure the truth hurts but a lie is torture.Pardon me if my mildly firery language offended you but the veiwing of the film and there behavior offended me.Also I took note that the man on the ground in charge before the general took over did not want this to occur, so what should that tell us not all were in agreement with the horrors done to these people. Yet the masses over ruled any minority. This is not a condemnation of you (it's clearly appearent you are european)i'm speaking on the majority. I understand that the planet belongs to the human family but some of our cousins are not right and are in deed and actions doing the work of satan (I'm sure you have some of that in your family) that is why i referred to them as devils if you have a more fitting word for a person or persons that would do such a thing as what they did i would gladly use it in any further text.(and by the way i sincerly hope you two gentlemen don't stop communicating with one another my aim was not to cause discourse that would make me a what?)Now with that being said if you believe the story of Noah all men on the planet have the capability to be devils and if you beleive the story of Jesus all men have the capability to be gods(children of The Most High who will die like men)If you choose, but the latter is far more difficult with greater reward and peace.So be more prudent in your use of the word racist (angry would have been more accurate). So let us all reason together though I am well aware that some are beyond reason and any attempt to is like fighting the wind and i don't think that you are beyond reason.PEACE

clix
clix
13 years ago

@Jeigh

Let's not part ways. You have a genuinely pure view of the world and the human family, which is how I want to be like when I take off my analytical hat.

My personal dealings with people of any skin/eye/hair color are much different than my analytical/intellectual endeavors. I am a person of African ancestry. I have spent half of my life in Africa and the other half in the U.S. A person we consider a second mother to our children is a white lady from the deep south. We love her dearly, and at times we have become insecure our children love her more than they love their parents. Having our children establish such an emotional bond with someone of a completely different background, I feel, is one of our greatest accomplishment as parents. When we talk about skin color with our children we use very light brown, light brown, brown, etc., the second mother being very light brown. We're all a shade of brown.

As you, I don't subscribe to the current paradigm of race. Historically, however, it is significant.

I do hope as a society, we'll get where you are right now, but we're not there.

Jeigh
Jeigh
13 years ago

@ clix, I know you and I agree on most of the points that have been brought up along the coarse of this discussion; but I really have to part with you here. Listen to the language used in these posts. They completely separate themselves and all cultures from Europeans. This is simply wrong. Looking at the world this way is completely illogical and racist. Just insinuating that there are races, is racism. Maybe not in the tradition form, but still. There are all kinds of racism; all of them are ignorant. I live in NYC. I'm not going to tell you how many different cultures there are here. I never look at a single person as being from a different race. Perhaps one of the larger issues that is not addressed, since most are stuck in the racist web, is that we hate because we are family.
Bottom line, the hatred is there in their language. Loud and clear. Whatever else they say is moot, since they are baseless in their logic. All of this hatred is really just a reflection of self-hatred to begin with... but that is another story.

Jeigh
Jeigh
13 years ago

@clix, While you are correct that there are underlying themes to the comments, they are convoluted by his hatred.

Race is the tired paradigm. Hatred for people because of their race is ignorant. RACE DOES NOT EXIST. Racism does, though. And it's alive and well in the above comments.

You can hold their hands and walk them off a cliff if you want, but I prefer to look things strait in the eye. Their comments are racist. Pure and simple.

clix
clix
13 years ago

Correction: The propagation of disease and death by Europeans is a phenomenon that took place over the course of several centuries, instead of just the two I alluded to above. In fact, this has been the case since at least the late 15th century to current day.

clix
clix
13 years ago

menelik1&2

I agree, disease and death often follow the path of the European. That has been the story of the 19th and 20th centuries. Jared Diamond in his Guns, Germs and Steels points out this same fact as to why Europeans have been able to succeed in pillaging and destroying a significant amount of the world's indigenous population.

Again, I agree with you about China. The Chinese would not have pulled ahead had they allowed themselves to be exposed to the workings of the CIA. They tightly controlled their media and movement much to the dismay of the Americans and Europeans who decried the Chinese's actions as 'human rights abuses'. The Chinese persisted. Now they're on an equal footing, they will decide what 'human rights abuse' is. It will be a fantastically interesting century ahead.

Yes, I do also hope that there is some eternal consequences for such actions in this world or another.

-Selam

@Jeigh

You seem to be responding to the chaff of menilik1&2's comments. There are important kernel's of truth to what he's saying, such as the ones I pointed out above. The 'racist' thing is a tired and overused paradigm. We're all biased against those who are not like us. It becomes racist when we act up on those biases to subjugate those who are not like us. In order to subjugate, one must have power over another. Now think of the word 'racist' and 'racism' in that context.