The Scariest and Deadliest Moments in Space History

2002 ,    »  -   83 Comments
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The Scariest and Deadliest Moments in Space History

The Soviet leadership's attitude toward the pioneering cosmonauts and engineers as well as the facilities and the equipment was that everything was expendable in the all out effort to stay ahead of the Americans. As an example, revealed state archives indicate that in October 1960, a huge new booster rocket malfunctioned on the launch pad. Instead of taking safety precautions, the Kremlin ordered the launch director and engineers to fix the problem immediately and get the rocket launched that day.

The launch director and over 165 men were inspecting the rocket when it suddenly blew up in a huge ball of fire instantly killing everyone nearby. Rumors persist that this was actually an early manned launch attempt with a cosmonaut on board. Amazingly, this historic tragedy was never officially confirmed by the Soviet government.

The early American effort in space, however, proved disastrous at nearly every turn. As the entire world watched in wonder, the US news media aptly supplied wide coverage to several ruinous missions in sharp contrast to the highly guarded top secret Russian space program of which little or nothing was known.

At the height of the Cold War, the American space agency, NASA, held a distant and dismal second place to the formidable Russian space program and America seemed destined to remain permanently overshadowed in space by the seemingly superior Russian program. At the height of the Cold War on March 18, 1955, the Soviets launched cosmonauts Pavel Belyayev and Alexei Leonov on a mission that would see the first man exit a spacecraft adding to their already massive list of space records.

After a flawless 10 minute spacewalk, Leonov ran into severe trouble when he tried to reenter the capsule. The effects of weightlessness in outer space had not been properly taken into account in the design of his spacesuit which ballooned out and made his return back to the spacecraft almost impossible.

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83 Comments / User Reviews

  1. RickRayFSM

    Oh America ! Instead of spending half your resources on war you could be setting up colonies on Mars by now.

  2. Karstein Eriksen

    There won't be any more space programs if Bin Laden's followers has taken over America and the rest of the sivilized world!

  3. Bob Trees

    We'll just be warring on Mars. :-(

  4. WhooptyDoo DaDay

    Get in that rocket, we don't have time for safety!

  5. Highlander

    "Oh America!" .... Leave the rest of the world alone?........ Concentrate on reducing your dependance on oil ?...... ( You really do not need 6 litre petrol engines to power cars and pick ups which run about the towns,.... honestly ! ) . ..... My guess is that most of them carry 2 people and perhaps a baby as cargo, at most ? .... Here in the UK.... ( VERY FAR FROM PERFECT, here I know ! ).... Our HGV trucks frequently have small 8 Litre engines . They still easily haul 40 odd tons of goods along the roads at reasonable speeds. ... They also burn pig piss after the turbo blowers, to further reduce emissions ! ( That is what "ad blue " is .) (apology if you already know that) ... ..... Stop harrassing the poor people of almost every country in the middle east , north of Saudi Arabia ......... Spend a few million dollers on a proper investigation of every unanswered question about 9/ 11..... This investigation would concentrate on the collapses of the 3 towers in Manhatten and then follow the money / evidence , wherever that leads ? .... The Laws of physics ( as Newton and others defined them ) were broken that day so ....I suggest it would be a good idea to sort out those discrepancies , before heading away from our atmosphere again ? . Once all those questions are answered to the satisfaction of the average "man in the street " , ONLY THEN ............., USA, ..........., reach for the stars again !

  6. oQ

    Isn't it all those wars that indirectly pays for the space program?
    1i

  7. Pysmythe

    Operation Paperclip scooped up the Nazi scientists after the war, in order to keep the Russians from getting to them and making use of them. Von Braun and the rest used the knowledge they culled from the German V2 programs to help get the U.S. on an equal, and eventually a superior, footing with the USSR during the Space Race. A lot of those same companies and industries that grew out of all of that are indeed a part of the military-industrial complex even now. I suppose it's simply a matter of which is more profitable, isn't it? Evidently a lot more can be made funding death than can be made funding greater exploration with an eye towards the long-term survival of humanity.

  8. oQ

    Well said.
    1i

  9. Pysmythe

    I keep watching reruns of Star Trek (Voyager)... and hoping and dreaming.

  10. dmxi

    great doc...!

  11. jaberwokky

    You need to lay off the Fox News diet man.

  12. richie086

    Amen! I feel the same exact way you do but I am an American. Many of my fellow Americans feel this way as well - so do not assume we are all brainwashed, overweight hicks (I know it might be difficult if you watch any of the horrible television shows coming out of this country). Sadly when topics like 9/11 are mentioned to most Americans, very few seem willing to believe anything other than the official story - which is severely flawed and in many cases flat out lies. I also agree that we need to GTFO of the Middle East entirely - we do not have any noble goals in regard to our forays into this part of the world. Lets take care of our own internal stuff before trying to impose democracy on others.

  13. Mansay Lombardy

    So you think that by working on going to space we can solve hunger, diseases etc? "I think the solutions will come once we have a new horizon to look to, to something else to think about". Can you see how s*upid that sounds? Something a child would say. "The problems are down here are because we aren't up there". Man, you sound really dumb. How does that make sense at all? Honestly I'm baffled by how ridiculous your post was.

  14. Karstein Eriksen

    We can't watch Fox News in Norway....

  15. DigiWongaDude

    Exploring is one of the few things we seem to do rather well. We have to leave this planet sooner or later, before our species will be wiped from the surface (there's an endless list of causes for that to happen)...that should be all the incentive needed really? Unless we want to stay in Plato's Cave, bickering amongst ourselves over our endless shortcomings? We have to rise to the challenge, there is no alternative...not when you really consider the bigger picture, that it's not an "if" scenario, it's a "when?".

  16. DigiWongaDude

    ...I agree with Paul because having a permanent presence, travelling in space, will require an enormous effort on behalf of our international community to put aside differences and come together in a way peace activists have only ever dreamt of.

    Look at the international efforts that were required to get the ISS built. Look at the international response to Curiosity's "7 minutes of terror". There is no reason to consider, even for a moment, that a concerted international effort in any regard does not have a profound affect on all of humanity. Because those efforts are echoed in all of us - that we are better than the sum of our problems. That together we can overcome. That divided we fall.

    It would set an example of what the human spirit is capable of and give us our pride back through the realisation that our passions dwell in the betterment of mankind, rather than the destruction of it. Paul is wisely stating that we can rise above our social challenges (world hunger being just one of them) through the 'accomplishments' of space travel. It makes perfect sense, hardly ridiculous and very far from dumb.

    Perhaps you didn't think it through?

  17. bringmeredwine

    In spite of its low budget, tacky sets,I still prefer the original series. Gene Reynolds was an amazing visionary

  18. bringmeredwine

    The Daily Show is much more fun! (and realistic).

  19. jaberwokky

    Then where ever it is you got that particular opinion from. I understand that the Scandinavian countries are straining under their immigration policies but a little perspective goes a long way. After all, we've seen what one right-wing christian from Norway could do. So Islam vs the heavily medicated, bible wielding, trigger-happy world police? I know where I'd bet my money. By the way I love Enslaved, I saw them here in Ireland a few months back.

  20. jaberwokky

    Agreed. I wish Jon Stewart would hurry up and get back to work, it's not the same without him.

  21. Paul Gloor

    I would like to direct your attention.
    Solving hunger is easy, think about it. We pour R&D dollars into developing self contained, chemical free, compact and high yielding food and water systems for space stations, flight and new colonies. Medical technology must also keep pace with the space program both in anticipation of new disease and in improving and maintaining overall health of our fellow man and travellers. We learn more about planetary biospheres, and discover the intricate web of life that we may study, learn and protect it fully. We learn how to reduce, reuse and recycle more efficiently, and develop new and more efficient energy systems. We develop more efficient homes, cooling, heating, planning, materials and construction. It all applies here as well as in space and other planetary bodies. It takes our minds off our differences and focuses on our far more significant similarities. You just have to dream a little bigger than flying cars and faster internet to see it.

  22. jaberwokky

    Care to share why you think these are bad ideas? If so then beware beliefs that help the rich get fat.

  23. jaberwokky

    Must say this is one of the worthwhile docs I've seen in a while. A whole bunch of stuff about the space race I didn't know.

  24. Karstein Eriksen

    It is not about christians vs islam at all, it is about extremists and tolerant. Bin Laden was an Islamic extremist but he would have been no better was he chatolic or protestant. I don't applaud war as a means of solving disagreements, but sometimes, when your opponent refuses to talk, you gotta show muscles to bring them to the table.

  25. jaberwokky

    I certainly share your opinion that it's about extremism and tolerance, on both sides. Sometimes though it can be hard to talk when there's a boot on your neck. And if the person that owns that boot keeps flexing their muscles then what?

  26. Karstein Eriksen

    You'r not seriously saying that americans are supressing muslim extremists?

  27. jaberwokky

    No I'm not. I am saying that an aggressive and interventionist American foreign policy doesn't seem to be the answer and there has to be a better option.

  28. batvette

    Comparing motor vehicle travel in the UK with its short distances and narrow roads with the United States with our often many hundreds of miles between major cities renders your observations hopelessly uninformed.
    We will use smaller power plants as the market drives the product availability. Up until a decade ago, gasoline was ridiculously cheap- and I'll note that the most ridiculously fuel guzzling vehicle owned by anyone I know was my old employer's Jaguar V-12 XJ-S. Followed in close second by my friend's husband's RR Silver Wraith-which hardly bears mention as it uses little fuel because you can't get 10 miles without it breaking down. Electrical by Lucas, "Prince of Darkness".
    If you guys still used Whitworth system fasteners I'd really have something to vent about.

  29. batvette

    Like every German scientist was a card carrying Nazi? They weren't, but it's real cheap and easy to associate Nazis with anything you wish to portray as evil.

  30. batvette

    Burt Rodenberry? "Star Trek and the Bandit"?

  31. Pysmythe

    I portray war and the gearing-up for war as evil... and very rarely a necessary one. And those scientists, whether card-carrying or not, worked for the Nazis, whether or not you care to acknowledge it. How on earth you evidently get derogatory finger-pointing at Germans in general out of anything I said is completely beyond me.

    You also left out one letter in your spelling of Roddenberry below.

  32. oQ

    It comes down to..... there is no way to stop exploring the unknown, that is what has driven us to be here today. All the generations before us wanted to stop time and keep the world in the state it was in or even the state it had just immerge from but evolution doesn't just mean from ape to human.
    It means from human to ............

    1i

  33. batvette

    "American foreign policy doesn't seem to be the answer "

    Opinions vary. I for one am happy we bombed Bin Laden, Al Qaeda and the Taliban back to the stone age where they belong. As for Iraq we gave Saddam what he was begging for and wouldn't have rested until he got it. War is the language you speak with when words become useless.
    This nonsense that the world would all love us if we would only be nice to them is just that.

  34. bringmeredwine

    No, I meant the Creator/Producer of the original series.
    I probably spelt it wrong!

  35. Highlander

    Sorry batvette/man, didnt mean to rile you of all people in the states. Now I am really in the deep kak ! All points Rolls Royce and Jaguar fuel hungry monsters accepted . Lucas electricals , don't get Me started!.... However, what in the world is wrong with the Whitworth thread system? You still use it with no probs in USA ? We ( UK )now struggle with , Whitworth from the old days, UNC, UNF , BSF and Metric coarse and now Metric fine is everywhere in thread forms my bloody thread form book does not recognise! You be grateful for small mercies and stay with Whitworth. ( By the way, ...investigate 9/11 too , Please ?)
    richie, apology, to you and all others who i dissed , if I implied all US folk the same. Did'nt mean to.I know you are not all mental , despite the crap on TV !

  36. jaberwokky

    If you think war is a language then you and me have nothing further to discuss. thanks.

  37. tomregit

    I think batbette is refering to Whitworth bolt sizes, not thread pitch. Eons ago I worked at in a garage that repaired old British cars. Figuring out what wrench to use was a nightmare. They were built to a Whitwoth standard where a 1/4" wrench fit a bolt that had a 1/4" THREAD, however, over the years may have been replaced with the current standard where 1/4" meant 1/4" ACROSS THE FLATS. They were occasionally replaced with a metric size. Drove me to drink. <:+)

  38. awful_truth

    @Paul Gloor: I agree completely. When I was 5 years old, I was watching man land on the moon. Our collective thinking was to look out, and explore the possibilities.( I always wanted to become an astronaut) When my son was 5 years old, he was watching the destruction of 9 11. Ultimately, humanity's leaders traded the future, and it's long term potential where we were looking out, for short term gain (greed) with satellites looking in, only interested in controlling, and exploiting the masses. Gene Roddenberry, and JFK were ahead of their time!

  39. awful_truth

    @Psmythe: Good to hear a post from you, and yes, there are lots of trekkers/trekkies around who dream of the possibilites, instead of watching FOX news. Probably why the original series, next generation, deep space nine, voyager, and enterprise had such success. ( A shame they killed Enterprise, it was a hell of a good series) Of course, Star Trek episodes tend to make people think, and be compassionate of others, which is incongruent with the greed driven mindlessness that is supported throughout the world. "Avatar" is the best example of being dismissed at the Academy Awards for the 'Hurt locker' mentality. (don't see the forest of exploitation, and concentrate on the trees of disarming mines) Terrific words of wisdom Psmythe regarding operation 'paperclip', keep up the good work!

  40. awful_truth

    @batvette: Burt Rodenberry? "Star Trek and the Bandit"? (funny stuff batvette!)

  41. awful_truth

    @Karstein Eriksen: If the U.S built a permanent military base in Norway, and bombed the crap out of you every time you didn't do as you were told, you just might become exteme yourself. Just a thought!

  42. awful_truth

    @batvette: Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the C.I.A train Bin laden to help the Mugahadeen fight the evil Russian empire? (worked until the U.S built a permanent military base in Saudi Arabia and got Bin Laden's attention) Didn't the U.S sell Saddam the very chemical weapons he used against his own people, and armed him to fight Iran into submission? Sounds like greed, and troublemaking to me, but hey, that is just my opinion. It seems to me there is a lot of evil to go around. Killing a million Iraqi's, and displacing another 4 million after the U.S created the monster to begin is pyschopathic. Defending this behaviour is as insane as killing 3,000 innocent people for the actions of their government as acceptable. Personally, they could have hung Bush, Cheney Wolfowitz, and Rumsfeld alongside Saddam, and I wouldn't have shed one tear, because they killed more people in 8 years, than Bin Laden, Saddam, and Gaddafi killed in 40 years combined; unless of course you believe the 'might is right' attitude, in which case consider yourself lucky that so far you are on the winning side, because your morality, and lack of compassion for others is not! (Something to think about)

  43. awful_truth

    @jaberwokky: Amen to that, and well said!

  44. awful_truth

    @bringmeredwine: I think the name you were searching for was 'Gene Roddenberry', and yes, he was a visionary. Take care, and best wishes!

  45. Paul Gloor

    The sad part is, we owe our early space race to war. Once that ended its like the nations just gave up and keep a token investment in it just because its has its useful moments. It's good now that we have private organizations taking interest, though I fear for what their agendas might have in store for it. Mars One is supposed to play out like a reality TV show if it even gets off the ground. I'm not sure they've got all their ducks in a row when it comes to getting people to mars and established. I've got an off feeling about it, I could very well be wrong.

  46. jaberwokky

    You too man, well said, I could not have presented the argument better. Then again when I get the feeling I'm talking to a particular mindset I tend to disengage. Some people just don't want to look at more than one side of any argument. Which is the real shame because the right answers will only come from knowing all the facts.

  47. Luyang Han

    "Just do it, not why." is the attitude of Chinese to space program. "We can't even solve our problems down here" is the attitude of US people now. Think about the situation after such difference for few decades.

  48. bringmeredwine

    Yes! That's it.
    Thanks!

  49. awful_truth

    @jaberwokky: I completely understand your need to disengage when encountering a certain mindset. Perhaps you are more enlightened then I am, for I tend to do the opposite, at least initally, in an attempt to help others see reason. I also agree with you that knowing all the facts is essential in arriving at the right conclusions. In fact, I will even go one step further (my opinion) by paraphrasing the prophetic words of Albert Einstein for the general masses: " quit looking for the right answers, and start asking the right questions". Only then, will the correct answer become obvious. (why didn't I see it to begin with?) Take care, and best wishes jaberwokky!

  50. awful_truth

    @Paul Gloor: You are right Paul. In fact, if it wasn't for the military, rocketry would have never got off the ground, because of lack of funding. Where would have Werner Von Braun got the money if not from the military? Note: this is not a defense of his actions, just a legitimate question.
    If we tried to go back to the moon today, it would still take another ten years to make it happen again. As far as Mars goes, I am still of the mindset that until we can go back and forth to the moon as easily as we fly across the ocean, we are not yet ready to embark on that journey. This doesn't mean we are not capable of it, only that the money and effort will have no lasting effect.
    In my humble opinion, until mankind changes our collective thinking from greed to enlightenment, the effort required for us to gain a toehold anywhere off this planet is folly. ( no money in it) In the final analysis, our need to explore has only been funded when there was riches to be made, whether it be by commerce, or exploitation.(war) Perhaps the need for the survival of humanity will change our thinking. (too little, too late) Best wishes to you Paul!

  51. batvette

    If they refused to work for their government out of ideological reasons they'd have been shot. There is no rational basis for implying that because they were scientists from Germany they should be labelled as Nazis once in America.

  52. batvette

    I have the same problem with whitworth I have with metric and SAE.
    They can't decide on one, and discard the rest. Although it would seem that eventually metric will win out. The markets dictate such things, and the Chinese, which produce most of the world's goods, were metric long ago. My 1986 Corvette, built in Kentucky, is all metric.
    So we'll have SAE around in its faded glory for some time.
    I collect a lot of fasteners, when I build things I generally use SAE because of all the NAS and milspec stainless fasteners I have bought cheap at local surplus stores whose stocks are rich with former San Diego aerospace industry supplies.
    Funny enough when I sort through it all I can usually spot the metric stuff from across the room, even against the non-high grade SAE. It usually looks cheap and inferior.
    (BTW the logic expressed by GM,. right in the FSM, for why they ditched SAE for Metric? Using a 1/4" size for reference, they said because there is just one thread pitch in the metric version, in the SAE they would have to stock both 1/4-20 and 1/4-28 and having the single pitch made it simpler. Not buying that for a minute. They were outsourcing production like mad from US to foreign plants in those days and didn't want to have both standards- looking to the future they just decided to cave in to metric rather than force SAE on the rest of the world)

  53. Pysmythe

    I didn't imply that at all. That's something you read into it.

  54. batvette

    How could I read anything else with the word Nazi in the post? You could have said German scientists, or scientists from Nazi Germany, but you said Nazi scientists.
    I've met a few people from Germany and they are good people, they love freedom and democracy as much or more than most Americans. The war was 3 generations ago and Germany has made a lot of effort to atone for the things they did. Moreover probably a majority of German citizens were not Nazis during the war but got caught up in it and there would be dire consequences if they spoke out about it.
    A good example would be Max Schmeling, the boxer who fought Joe Louis, He was a good man and did what he could quietly to help some jews out of the country and refused to participate in Hitler's propaganda machine.
    Hitler tried to have him killed by sending him on suicide paratrooper missions, yet Schmeling returned every time.
    Like we speak of France, it's time to stop using these stereotypes against European countries. We've spent 6 decades telling the world the French are cowards, "fromage eating surrender monkeys" I believe is a popular portrayal. Yet in the first month of WW2 they suffered 100,000 casualties, just a little over a generation after losing most of their young male population to WW1.. What could they do? Is it any wonder they treat us with contempt now that we've spent all these years treating them like dirt?
    The "military industrial complex" is what it is, it's bigger than it has to be and is filled with greedy corporate shareholders greasing the palms of crooked politicians- but it's also full of honest people who just want to feed their family by turning a wrench on a piece of machinery. Scientists, engineers that like to build things. Some good comes of it, some bad. However until man can restrain his desire to conquer others, and I would predict that will be never, it's a necessary evil, and it's funny to drag Nazi Germany into the issue:
    It's probably the best example of why you need to prepare for war if you want peace, and a perfectly justifiable use of fighting the most brutal way you can for the better of all humanity.
    How does one look at things like the fire bombing of Dresden? By looking at the gas chambers I'd guess.

  55. batvette

    you're wrong. On both Saddam and OBL.
    See Richard Miniter's "Disinformation" (OBL) and "SIPRI arms transfers Iraq" and the wiki page on Iraq WMD(Saddam)
    And your math on 8 years of bodies. There were about 18k total casualties in the invasion. I don't see the logic in blaming anyone but the Iraqis for their own brutal civil war. Most of the casualties was them killing each other, not our soldiers killing them. Maybe blame Saddam and Islam, between the two they were about as dumb and crazy as a spinning rock. Google "Tuwaitha yellowcake barrels looting" for a perfect example.
    And what about Congress? Isn't their approval required for the war?
    No the fact is Democrats used the war as political capital in the 2004 election, and compounding it all is this:
    Americans are supposed to believe this was all a big mistake. We're supposed to pretend Congress was duped by Bush and we're all victims of the evil Bush cabal.
    So he could go home and not care, and we as a nation could go into Iraq, deny Russia, France and China easy access to the richest oil fields on earth, preserve the petrodollar scheme indefinitely, and use the country for an Al Qaeda shooting gallery- and secure a permanent base within the striking distance of an F-22, over the 5 countries that by 2020 will possess 70% of the world's proven conventional petroleum reserves.
    And Americans can look all innocent, smelling like a rose, "Bush duped us all. It's his fault!"
    Any other way it would have looked too easy. The world doesn't like a winner.
    I'm sorry but I have to say it was pure genius. Oh America will still be on the downslide, don't look at that for evidence it was a failure.
    Just look at the cost and think "in real dollars or in alternate reality dollars once the combined drilling assets of China, France and Russia got unfettered access to the last high pressure light sweet crude wells on earth.... and along with Iran and Venezuela, it all goes on the world market sold in Euros."
    How do you like the dollar with 1/3 of its value against other currencies AND gasoline at $15 a gallon?
    Hate on Bush, and feel shame for your country's exploits. It's the plan.

  56. batvette

    Yeah my friend's three year old likes to put his hands over his ears and shout "you're talking but I'm not listening" too.
    Yet the language is still spoken by many whether you like it or not. I suppose you are one of those who think "Because I was born and I'm alive right now, war can end in my lifetime because I wish it and don't understand why everyone else doesn't feel the way I do."
    If that's even close wake up and smell the arrogance. There have been active wars in every single generation of humanity since it existed. Think about that. As well as the fact that every leader of any country or power worth spit must make decisions on his watch where people are going to get hurt or even die. The worst thing they could do would be to make those decisions with the mindset that nobody should get hurt.
    We had a President like that, a great humanitarian. It bothered him that we sponsored a leader who brutalized his people and got rich, that our CIA meddled in their affairs. We pay the price still today for Jimmy Carter's foolish and naive policies. We wouldn't have to have such a presence in the middle east except for his abandonment of the Shah and he was on a path to concede the cold war to the Soviets, which would surely have delayed or even stopped the political reforms in Eastern Europe and to a lesser extent Russia and China as well.
    Had his "Please Don't Hurt 'Em, Hammer" Pollyanna policies continued billions of people would still be enslaved today.

    You've got to break a few eggs to make mayonnaise.
    Curious, when you were in grade school and the first week of school a new kid transferred in and he was a big bully and started feeling out his territory, and maybe got to you one day... What would you/did you do when he wouldn't let you talk your way out of it?
    Wasn't there a time to fight- when words were useless? Don't know about you but when he said "After school, at the bus stop, you and me!": I didn't wait. I walked up and slugged him hard as I could. Usually got pounded for it, but there were about 10 more fights that year with other people I never had to have.
    An example of waging war, to preserve peace.

  57. batvette

    Umm, no it's "been there done that no reason for a redeux" and the Chinese effort to get in space is merely a "we can do it too, see, we're a superpower" matter of prestige. Fact is there is no need to have humans involved in space flight now EXCEPT for such egotistical ventures.

    We would send a man to Mars if there was reason. There is not. Current technologies have too many hurdles anyway and the radiation issue is quite serious. There is nothing on the immediate planetary bodies to interest us in exploring them with humans.We should probably look at advancements in long range probes.
    Or maybe not. It is said if something wanted to and could destroy us they would know about us already. Maybe not.

    "V'ger must eat the creator for nourishment."

  58. Pysmythe

    I gave you a like because I agree with most of your post, but why you continue to harp on this is beyond me. When Paperclip rounded these chaps up, they were Nazi scientists, in truth or in essence, but I don't believe anyone else reading my post with the faintest knowledge of history at all could construe it to mean that I believe they remained Nazi scientists.

    Enough, already.

  59. jaberwokky

    Right then. You've compared me to a three year old, called me arrogant, presumed to know what I'm thinking and that I'm naive, decided I know nothing of our species propensity for violence, presumed I have no tolerance for understandings other than my own, displayed your eagerness in supporting the view that america is the rightful world police, defended aggressive american military intervention no matter what way the story needs to be twisted, and linked it all to how you and/or me were bullied/ handled being bullied on the schoolyard playground.

    Incidentally, how does your bully analogy look if you stop to consider for a moment if America was the bully and you and I were brown people in lets say, oh I don't know, how about Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Chile, Venezuela or Cuba? Bit of a different picture then no? Perhaps you should look a little deeper into your above response. Perhaps there's a loved one or a professional out there that could help you look into it. Either ways as I've already said I don't speak your language.

  60. jaberwokky

    And for the record hearing what you've said and deciding that it's a waste of time and not worth a response are very different things. I still heard what you said though.

  61. awful_truth

    @batvette: Your self justification for American 'access to oil' is indeed quite boundless.
    To begin with, the largest oil supply in the world untapped, lies underneath the rocky mountains, so start drilling, and put your people to work instead of stealing everyone else's resources, or exploiting cheap labor abroad.
    Better yet, use better technology like thorium generators, and desalination plants instead of supporting the business of war. (check Smeddly Darlington Butler - American general who exposed fascist coup by big business to overthrow FDR, and wrote the book 'War is a Racket'.
    Secondly, it doesn't matter which judges or president you have in power, since they are all bought and paid for by the corporations that funded them. (the same rich people backing both sides with billions - illusion/delusion of democracy) In reality, the world is being carved up by key players around the world, while people like yourself who are spoon fed Fox pablum, tell tales of how the U.S only killed 18,000 Iraqis??? ( 1 would be too much when you don't belong there)
    You may believe that the U.S leaders actions 'were pure genius', but in reality they didn't fool anyone, except the general masses, (nothing genius about that) and what goes around comes around. (karma is a b**tch)
    Since people like yourself will only understand this when it lands on your doorstep, (no compassion -immoral) the collapse of your empire, (and it will happen) will only punish the children of those who thought they were smart, but were instead only greed driven embiciles, who sold their soul for short term profit!
    P.S: I don't hate Bush. (I don't know him) All I said was they could have hung him and his collaborators alongside Saddam, and I wouldn't have shed a tear. (I have an indifference to any who knowingly support evil) If you truly believe what you are speaking, then there is no point in responding back to this blog.

  62. batvette

    " the largest oil supply in the world untapped, lies underneath the rocky mountains"

    I said proven conventional petroleum reserves. The shale oil deposits of the Rocky Mountains are far too energy and water dependent to retrieve with current technologies.

    "better technology like thorium generators,"

    Pie in the sky, unproven.

    "check Smeddly Darlington Butler"

    Why do war critics always mention that idiot as some great prophet? It took him a whole career to figure out the obvious, that virtually all wars are about "stuff"? What was the purpose of mentioning it to me when I just described the "stuff" the Iraq war was about? Do not mistake irrelevant for profound.

    "what goes around comes around. (karma is a b**tch)"

    Tell that to Saddam.

    "Since people like yourself will only understand this when it lands on your doorstep, (no compassion -immoral)"

    Ad hominem, the refuge of those who lack the maturity to discuss topical issues.

    " All I said was they could have hung him and his collaborators alongside Saddam, and I wouldn't have shed a tear."

    Bizarre. Saddam invades Kuwait and attacks Saudi Arabia, two nations who had contracted with us for their self defense. 12 years of depending on the UN fail to bring assurances toward their continued safety, and the policy we had taken brought 9/11 and killed as many as a million Iraqis. In the interest of completing our obligations toward our allies, and knowing the status quo was untenable, with Saddam showing no sign he had changed, Bush takes the initiative with the support of the US Congress and finishes the job.
    You would hang him?

  63. batvette

    " if America was the bully and you and I were brown people"

    What does race have to do with anything? I think there are "brown" people in the US... so how does your fantasy look when Colin Powell was instrumental in the Iraq war?

    Where I perceived your comment as immature was the failure to realize that military action is a tool in the kit of diplomacy that sometimes needs to be used. Diplomacy includes threats that you must be prepared to follow through with, and as I said, when words fail to be useful violence may be the only language the opponent will understand.

  64. jaberwokky

    You don't think race has anything to do with it? I suppose all those countries I mentioned plus a bunch more I'm sure you're aware of just happen to be populated by non whites. What a coincidence eh? Hiding behind Colin Powell won't cut it either. The man fabricated evidence and repeatedly ignored warnings that what he was saying was false. I guess that makes him one of the good guys. As George Carlin says "Colin Powell is openly white, he just happens to be black".

    I understand well enough when a system has value that needs to be protected, even when there's sacrifices to be made. WW2 serves as a good example. However I still think your missing the point. There's been very little done to warrant the way America has been behaving for a long time now. If you think otherwise you are in the minority and you need to ask yourself why. You previously stated that you are happy now that the Taliban Al-Quaeda are "bombed back to the stone age". Have they been? This last weekend's news alone says otherwise. Saddam got what he deserved? He didn't deserve it when he was America's puppet during the Iran-Iraq war when he used chemical weapons on the Iranians or afterwards when he used them on his own people ( the Kurds )?

    There's way too many inconsistencies in what you are choosing to believe and it seems to me based on the last fact in the door and the belief that might is right. Lucky for you you live in the worlds most heavily armed country. Have you fought in the armed services or would you be offering to send other people overseas to do your dying for you ? If so you better have a damn good reason and be a lot more clear on your history and the lead up to your next illegal occupation (Syria maybe?).

  65. jaberwokky

    You might also want to look up the 1953 Iranian coup d'etat and Mohammad Mosaddegh to understand why the Americans were so keen on propping up the Shah of Iran. It'll help you grasp why Carter wasn't willing to go against the will of the Iranian people. Yes, I'll agree the revolution was hijacked but that's a different kettle of fish. And please don't try to tell me that Ronald Reagan would have saved the day if the embassy hostages had not been released at such a conspicuous time.

  66. batvette

    The CIA didn't overthrow Mossadegh though they would have liked to. Mossadegh's policies broke Iran's economy, even he admitted this in his memoirs. The CIA, facing the possibility of being shut down by Congress after Bay of Pigs and JFK's shooting, doctored paperwork and took credit for the impossible as Iran was a success story.
    I mean, really, it's an insult to the people of Iran to believe Kermit Roosevelt subverted the political will of 20 million people by taking $10k and hiring circus acrobats, strong men and prostitutes to organize an overthrow.

  67. batvette

    I love that, "Illegal occupation". please cite the code and the jurisdictional authority we are allegedly in violation of.

    As for military service damn straight. I enlisted in 1979 when war with Iran seemed imminent, worked on the flight deck of a carrier.

    "There's been very little done to warrant the way America has been behaving for a long time now."

    If you choose to wrongfully portray wars as "illegal" when they are not your distorted view on reality is not my concern.

    " He didn't deserve it when he was America's puppet during the Iran-Iraq war when he used chemical weapons on the Iranians or afterwards when he used them on his own people ( the Kurds )?"

    America's puppet? The chemical weapons were largely procured from Germany and Russia, and when Saddam gassed the Kurds the bombs were dropped by Russian Mig and French Mirage fighter/attack planes. We certainly didn't tell him to do it and we had no role in the weapons themselves. Maybe it's you who needs the history lesson.

    " The man fabricated evidence and repeatedly ignored warnings that what he was saying was false."

    Can you show me, even with the benefit of ten years hindsight, a single intelligence report from any nation, which concluded that Saddam had disarmed?

    C'mon, Colin Powell was lying, Bush was lying, right? What evidence did they ignore that said Saddam didn't have WMD?

  68. jaberwokky

    Man I can't do this, this argument has already dragged me way off kilter. I can see you believe what you are saying is right and I can understand how you'd be tied to a train of thought like that if you've spent time defending it with blood, sweat and tears. I could go into how Iraq had ten years of sanctions/no fly zones/bombings after the gulf war and were prime material for shock and awe but I'm sure you have something to counter that and then I'll come back and then blah blah blah. I've had this very same conversation way too many times already, it's why I originally didn't want to engage. I know all the points and counterpoints and it never ends. But that's the problem as far as I can see. If we continue doing what we're doing we'll keep getting what we've always got. Do you see any truth in that or is that of any interest? If war hasn't worked so far then what makes you think it will work this/next time?

    Call me naive or immature for not engaging in your blood lust but that's fine, you can go f--k yourself.

  69. batvette

    You declared the war/occupation to be "illegal", I simply asked if that was the case then please specify what law it was that was broken- you don't need to get all angry about it just because you don't want to admit you're wrong.
    This really frames the criticism all too often, the portrayal of America's policies in completely distorted ways and condemning them based upon distortions.
    . Our actions on Iraq were perfectly within the boundaries of the UN charter, in fact that's why the AUMF on Iraq of 2002 directly cited the texts of UN resolutions it sought to enforce.

  70. jaberwokky

    You're right, I was unnecessarily angry. It was disrespectful and I apologize. I still get frustrated when people defend beliefs that seem flawed to me. Maybe you were right in your earlier assessment, maybe I expect unrealistic stuff or think that . But your country is not always right no matter how much you love it, it's a simple matter of averages at the very least and when you defend things that seem to me morally indefensible it starts to sound a bit like "my country, right or wrong".

  71. awful_truth

    @batvette: (Hang Bush - In an instant!) By the way, Saddam Hussein did not attack Saudi Arabia. (Kuwait, yes, because they were drilling at a 45 degree angle to rob Iraqis of their oil resources) Since you obviously support Manifest destiny, (American Empire) - control over the world, without any thought of anyone except what you believe to be in the best interest of the U.S, you will only acknowledge that which supports that position. (unenlightened - immoral) Perhaps it is time for you to be all you can be, and join the armed forces, so you can see first hand how much fun you are missing!
    P.S: Jesse Ventura got it right. George Bush Jr. and Richard Cheney are Chickenhawks. When it was their time to serve, they hid behind their parents wealth, (chickens) When they got in power, they became hawks with other people's children. In other words, losers!

  72. batvette

    Not only did Saddam attack KSA, he invaded it. Look it up, please. And was making overtures of a repeat in January 2003. As for the military? USN 1979-1984, Aviation Fire Control Tech PO 3rd class, VF-21, CV-43, honorably discharged.
    So now YOU are enlightened about your error and know that I am not immoral as I am no chickenhawk. Thank you and have a nice day.

  73. Space Nut

    All of the space travel is a huge waste of money!!! Why go back to the moon or mars, there isn't anything there to go for. It's like going to the graveyard... everythings dead! And if you say we should go for the resources well... all we do is start wars and fight and kill each other for the resources here on Earth, and we'll do the same thing on those bodies as well. Until we get it together here first and find some better way of understanding one another and living together in a peaceful co-existence, we don't nor should we pollute space with our childish ways! Billions of dollars to collect space rocks from the moon, how many millions wasted in probes sent to mars to show us photos of a giant red rock with nothing there!! I'm sure all that money could be put to better use here on earth solving some of our problems , like hunger and housing and curing disease! So what if they build a better rocket or find a new propulsion system, all we are going to use it for is to find a better way to kill the less fortunate people on their own land and cotinents because we want whats in the ground beneath their feet! go to Mars what the H--- for!!

  74. Space Nut

    If we learn to live correctly here on earth, there is no need to travel anywhere. There are ways of living without raping the Earth and depleting it of its core wealth! But the chosen few either won't explore these ways for want of profit, or won't allow us to use them now for the same reason! And if we do leave I hope it's much later, because the human race is not capable of a true peaceful exsistance right now as we speak. Nor do I see us there even in 100 years if we even last that long!!

  75. Space Nut

    Unless you find a way to create gravity, the human body and bones will simply decay no matter how many stationary bikes you put in your imaginary space colonies. And the only R&D I've ever seen truly in the U.S.A. was in how to make a better tank or howitzer or how to make a plane more stealthy so it can drop more bombs without being seen or new drone technology so that we don't even have to be on the same continent to do the killing!! You really are living in fantast land Mr. Gloor, because you know as well as I do that landing on the moon and fighting in Vietnam at the same time kind of cancel each other out. After all you can't have an endless fake war on terror and build a space exploring program... it' either one or the other!!

  76. Space Nut

    WE are on the same page.

  77. Space Nut

    That's why the puppet Afghan Pres. and the U.S.A. are behind closed doors negotiating with the Taliban about building a oil pipe line! Batvette Grow up! And whom do you think build up and gave Saddam the missing WMD's America under Reagen dummy!! Only when he stopped listening to the U.S. did he all of a sudden become our biggest make believe threat! We embargoed and bombed the country almost 12 years before we invaded under false pretenses! The country was dirt poor starving and worse because of the trade embargoes. Bush invaded because he thought the country was weak from 12yrs. of that crap and would be a push over, but they showed the military that this time they would fight back, and more than ten yrs. later we are still fighting there.And unless YOU servred in the armed forces ,as I did then stop using the word WE!! Because you haven't done a D-- thing!!!

  78. batvette

    As offered once before in the thread: AQ3 USN Dec79-Jan85 Fitron 21 Fire Control shop CV-43. And you're wrong about the US "giving" Saddam WMD. Unless you call thiodiglycol WMD, in which case we found WMD all over Iraq in 2003. Your further statements suggest a complete disconnect from the facts. The military fought back? Joke. That was the whole point, Saddam didn't order his military to put up an organized defense because he'd been promised by his allies in Paris and Moscow they'd quickly broker a cease fire.

  79. awful_truth

    @Space Nut: I am unsure why you have such disdain for space explorations and it's costs when you go by the handle Space Nut. (???)That aside, the costs associated with space exploration (Nasa 15 billion) is meaningless compared to the 800 billion dollars the U.S spends on it's war machine, the very thing you rightfully have such contempt for.
    Since I completely agree with everything you have said in regards to human nature, and the way we treat one another, perhaps re-directing our financial efforts in space exploration would be far more productive, than not at all.
    Of course, the real payoff of efficiency would be to take control of the monetary system itself from the corporate elite, (Rothchilds, Rockfellers, Warbergs, Schiffs, Morgans, Carnegies, etc) whereby we could all live as kings with plenty to spare.
    Since the likelihood of any of this happening is highly unlikely, at least we have the satisfaction of knowing that not all of the money is earmarked for destructive purposes.
    Why? Why not!

  80. DAMayhem

    Short sighted and short term solution. We must get off the planet or the species will die.

  81. Peter JC

    Space Cadet

  82. Peter JC

    Chinese spacecraft? Must go through some loctite. They also must use a lot of springs, i have noticed when they get tolerances incorrect they throw a spring in. Imagine the user manual ' congratulations on purchase you of happy smiley good rocket, do not put in mouth as is choking hazard and cause burns in child under 20'

  83. Peter JC

    A Chinese rocket will definitely break up in stages.

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