The Secret Family of Jesus

2006 ,    »  -   251 Comments
533
7.27
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Ratings: 7.27/10 from 146 users.
Storyline
The Secret Family of Jesus

This is the narrative of the intrigue that Dan Brown failed to address. More important than the Da Vinci Code it's an account of past events that has been invisible for more than 2,000 years. It takes us right back to the very root of Christianity and if accurate, could shake almost everything that Christians take for granted. It's the account of the people who were dearest to Jesus, the people who shared his lineage.

In this film Robert Beckford will decrypt the Bible and other ancient scriptures to tell for the first time the actual story of Jesus' bloodline because he thinks Jesus had brothers and sisters, cousins, aunts, uncles and nephews. A huge widespread family tree that was there for at least 300 years after his demise and took large part in the establishment of Christianity, that the authentic idea was too threatening for the new religion, and that the formal Church kidnapped their campaign and then made an attempt to remove them from the story.

The very first words of this new belief, as uttered by Jesus and his followers, are contained in the Bible. For many people, it's truly the word of God. But dispersed across the pages of this book are some puzzling allusions to a group of people very close to Jesus, his own clan and his dearest associates. But strangely, they barely get recognition at all.

One of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church's largest annual celebration day is that of the birth of Mary, the mother of Jesus. Feasts are held all over the world, her portraits are proudly displayed, but one thing is never commented - her actual blood family. The whole inquiry about the existence of Jesus' brothers and sisters in the gospels is very much explained and associated with the identity of Jesus and his mother. And as Jesus starts to be evermore perceived as godlike and Mary transforms evermore into eternal virgin, then it becomes unorthodox to say that these are typical brothers and sisters.

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251 Comments / User Reviews

  1. dmxi

    another doc that will end in a 100+ comment bashing & clashing between believers,agnostics,atheists,deists,etc & my comment which acknowledges this;so,let the play begin :

  2. xxDarkSidexx

    all the regulars are probably greasing themselves up now getting ready for the rumble, fish those literacy wrestling pants out the draw and lets go!

  3. pwndecaf

    I like this kind of crap. I've probably already seen it, but bring on the popcorn, please!

    ps I like Hitler docs, too, FWIW.

  4. ~Oliver B Koslik Esq

    Why are "we" still wasting time, energy and resources. On a topic that is now widely understood as a corrupt fallacy, designed to conquer and control society?

    Furthermore one that continues to perpetuate war and terror.
    All in the face of preventable hunger, and other such sufferings.

    All these "closed religions" only teach hoarding, amongst their own communities. But as well indoctrinate hate and intolerance. Hate and ignorance that Breeds entire societies of mental disorders / dysfunctions...

    {puke}

    I really don't mean any offence, and I understand why people don't seek / adopt Current moral laws and value systems... learning "new stuff" requires energy.

    +1 TDF
    For letting me get that off my chest.

  5. Jamie Ray Donald Kutaj

    Yeah stuff like this that treats Jesus and other religious dogma as fact always makes me laugh when I see it listed here.... it seems like such a waste of bandwidth and storage. Why don't we trace the past for secrets of Adam and Eve's family too while we're at it? Maybe Santa can help us with his sled

  6. Fabien L'Amour

    Now now, do not slander the name of Santa by associating him with sinners! :D

  7. Norman Scott

    "One of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church's largest annual celebration day is that of the birth of Mary, the mother of Jesus." The above article stated. Can anyone tell me where is it in the Bible mentions when Mary was born? To celebrate her birth, you must know the date. I do not want to watch something for 1hr and 40 min. based on personal opinions.

  8. dmxi

    (2 days later-still just 8 comments)...seems to be satanic force of denial,eh?

  9. bringmeredwine

    Okay, I'll bite because I have nothing better to do on a rainy night.
    I've read that the Essences, a strict Jewish sect from before 200bc, claimed in the Dead Sea Scrolls that Mary, Joseph, Jesus (and his siblings), and John the Baptist (his cousin), were all members of an elite Essene family bloodline.
    So does that make Mary and Joseph related somehow? Oh dear.

  10. Eric Lawson

    Interesting Documentary!! I do not believe that Jesus was the son of God . Any more than i believe in the resurrection and or that Mary was a virgin !Jesus was a prophet.I believe that Jesus had brothers and sisters. That he was a very wise and compassionate man !!

  11. Steve Savage

    Although the falsely attributed quote to Buddha, "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.", it does make a great deal of sense considering that all tralatitious scripture is both apocryphal and redacted.

    Steve Savage "King of the Beasts"

  12. Jacob Solace

    You are assuming you are capable of reason and common sense.

  13. With Fortitude

    This is the falling away and has never happened before . All of the naysayers that are being so logical with their "there is no G-d".. This is one of the prophesies of the end times. The world is turning away from G-d because they claim there is no such thing and only idiots would believe in such a thing. These are wonderful times !

  14. Steve Savage

    I'm not assuming anything.

  15. Jacob Solace

    Forget the buddha. Find out for yourself directly.

  16. dmxi

    this reminds me of school when suddenly you & a bully where surrounded by the rest of the school chanting :"FIGHT!FIGHT!FIGHT!"
    but someone hasn't seen your avatar & seems to be suicidal by picking the biggest 'mammal' on't block!
    i hope he finds 'solace'(pun,eh?)
    cool post,steve!

  17. Fabien L'Amour

    It's not there, it's a celebration day, not a birthday. The
    Church has celebrated since at least the sixth century. A
    September birth was chosen because the Eastern Church begins its Church year with September. The September 8 date helped determine the date for the feast of the Immaculate Conception on December 8 (nine months earlier). Same thing with Jesus, he was born December 25th but dies at a different date every year... All arbitrary.

  18. James Kennedy

    This is the folly of man's ego not religion, philosophy or even metaphysics. To propose that the search for knowledge and not the ineptitude and barbarity of mankind's perseverance of vanity is the sole cause to historical and latter-day affrays surly is an prominent atheistic "scientific" view, reminiscent of the inquisition????

  19. awful_truth

    Actually, the December 25th birthday of Christ originates from the pagan god 'Mithra(s)', as was the devils pitch fork came from Poseidon's trident, etc. This all occurred during 325 A.D at the council of Nicaea, when the Emperor Constantine brought forth all the religious scholars to unify his empire under one religious doctrine. In this process, many of the pagan gods (and their dogmas) were converted into Christianity to ease the process of acceptance.
    Note: Mithras was born of a virgin, in a stable, -- ah, you get the point.
    This is also where it was decided which books would be accepted into the new testament, (27 in total) and others were discarded. (St. John's revelations instead of the apocalypse of St. Peter, etc) Those that were accepted (canonic gospels) and those that were dismissed. (gnostic gospels - gospel of Mary, Phillip, etc)

  20. awful_truth

    As far as religious documentaries go, this is a great presentation,
    because it goes to the heart of the issue; who was Jesus Christ, and what did he stand for. By exposing the falsification and corruption of what Christianity has become, it does not diminish the divinity of Jesus, but instead embraces the divinity in all of us, and what it is we should be striving for. (the message is more important than the messenger himself) As Bruce Lee so eloquently stated in Enter the Dragon, "it is like a finger pointing a way to the moon. Concentrate on the finger, and you miss all the heavenly glory". Take care, and best wishes everyone!

  21. tariqxl

    August or October the supposed actual birthday can't remember which, pretty sure its August.

  22. tariqxl

    No wonder Jesus came out with super powers he was the original bronze age X-man. He could walk on water because of his webbed feet and insanely light brittle bone skeleton.

  23. Fabien L'Amour

    As I said has nothing to do with the birth of anything real. Unless you are telling me the "God" Mithras was real and Poseidon really had a trident...

  24. awful_truth

    You gave an account regarding the eastern church culminating with the statement, " he (Jesus) was born on December 25th but dies at a different date every year". I in return, gave you an historical reference of 'where' the date of his birth actually came from. Your desire to change the point of discussion to whether Jesus actually existed, (he did) or the validity of pagan mythology itself, (you know, myth) is a poor attempt at redirection regarding your own statements. I am curious. You appear to be a very intelligent individual, but seem reluctant to admit when you are incorrect. Why not just say thanks for the heads up, and leave it at that. (that is how we all learn) Take care, Fabien.

  25. Fabien L'Amour

    My point was that the religious celebration days were arbitrary decisions based on myths. I don't see how I was incorrect. It's questionable if Jesus Christ is not a myth when his date of birth is based on a mythical god.

  26. Fabien L'Amour

    I'd like to read how they came up with an actual birthday in august (or october) if you have a source.

  27. Fabien L'Amour

    Mmm that would also explain the halo, radioactivity. You might have struck jackpot, I feel a new religion is coming, will be a big hit with X-men fans! :P

  28. Fabien L'Amour

    I like your post because you used I believe and didn't try to push your belief as the ultimate truth to others. Thumbs up!

  29. Eric Lawson

    I Believe the message should not be twisted or changed . But rather the truth. The truth to the best of our abilities in fact finding and common sense !!!Peace!!

  30. Norman Scott

    Like Detective Joe Friday says "Just the facts Maam" Myths, Symantecs , and traditions are abound. You cannot hang your hat on them.

  31. awful_truth

    It is not questionable as to whether Jesus Christ existed or not since he is mentioned in other texts other than the bible. The point of the documentary is the elevation of him from a prophet to a 'god'. Do you question whether Achilles or Socrates existed? (They pre-date his life) Achilles who lived 1500 years before Christ has himself been lifted to mythological status, but no one is questioning his existence. Perhaps your lack of belief, or disdain for the bible itself has clouded your judgment. (just a thought, no insult intended) Take care Fabien!

  32. awful_truth

    I completely agree with you that the truth, and it's message is paramount; however, 'the truth' seldom ever finds its way into history since it is written by the victors, and not the vanquished. (half the truth gone right off the top) Combine this with politics, power, and of course greed, and very little truth ever survives. I am sure if Jesus was here today, he would be absolutely disgusted with the twisted, watered down version of his beliefs that are being spoken in his name. Live long, and prosper Eric!

  33. Fabien L'Amour

    I don't question a preacher walked the earth with a following 2000 years or so ago. I question that he was the son of God, was called Jesus, did various miracles and came back from the dead. Myths are often based on real life characters, sure doesn't mean what was written in the bible is true.

  34. awful_truth

    Did I say what was written in the bible was true, in regards to miracles? Perhaps you should actually watch the documentary, and read my review of the documentary itself (just look up) before you respond to me any further.
    P.S: When you realize that we are in agreement, you will desist from attempting to hide from your historical error - pride is 1 of the 7 deadly sins)

  35. Fabien L'Amour

    Relax, I am answering your questions. I am not particularly proud, I am trying to express my opinion and making my opinion clear for all readers. You put words on here I never said then tell me to shut up about them. I never said you believe in the bible or anything else, I said I don't believe in it. I am not attacking you at all, only stating my point. I'd agree I made an historical error if I did one.

  36. Fabien L'Amour

    Agreed, celebrating something doesn't mean what is celebrated is real.

  37. awful_truth

    I respect your intellectual skepticism that everything in the bible is 100% factual truth, especially the miracles. (as far as I am concerned, only a fool would) Out of curiosity, if you accept there was a preacher, who had a following 2000 years ago, why are you reluctant to believe his name was "Jesus'? Take care Fabien.

  38. Fabien L'Amour

    If it sounds to good to be true, it probably isn't.

  39. awful_truth

    Fair enough! Best wishes Fabien.

  40. Fabien L'Amour

    A Jew at that time would probably have been called Yeshua or Yehōshu'a.

  41. carljoe

    Interesting documentary. I feel asleep, halfway through, but interesting regardless. Worth watching the whole thing, I'm sure.

  42. carljoe

    The fight is over?
    Oh well, I guess that's what Jesus would've wanted. But darn, I just popped some popcorn :-)

  43. awful_truth

    Hey, the guy thinks he knows what they probably called a Jew at that time. How do you argue with that! His cup fill'eth over.

  44. Fabien L'Amour

    Jesus is purely latin, latin wasn't spoken in Judah 2000 years ago. The letter J wasn't even present in the first version of the King James Bible in 1611. Iesus was used which is a greek translation.

  45. awful_truth

    No, they spoke Aramaic, and Hebrew, not latin. If you spent as much time on Wikipedia learning the actual history, instead of defending a mistake by changing the topic,(origin of December 25th birthday) think of what you could learn! (how is that working for you?) No need to respond, it is a rhetorical question.

  46. Fabien L'Amour

    You need new glasses. I know very well they spoke Aramaic and Hebrew. I wrote that the word Jesus is not Aramaic or Hebrew but Latin! The Hebrew bible does not use Jesus as it's not a Hebrew name. And give up on your December 25th birthday of Jesus, In my original post which you probably read with the same glasses, I never tried to explain why it was December 25th, I explained the birth date of Mary and the immaculate conception feast which have nothing to do with Jesus. I made no error if you care to reread my post instead of going on with your imaginary historical errors.

  47. Sir Baby De Porky

    Jesus was the son of Cleopatra and Centurion Titus Pullo ( but
    thought to be the son of Julius Caesar ) ...

    Mary and Joseph were Cleopatra's most trusted servants , and
    they took young Jesus on the silk road , to go hide from Octavian
    and study in an Ashram in Kashmir !!!

  48. Simon Bar Sinister

    The narrator is totally annoying.

  49. Fabien L'Amour

    Does your religion forbid you to write God or your o key is broken?

  50. With Fortitude

    What kind of name is fabien l amour ? Most homosexuals deny there is a G-d. Are you one of them? Homosexuality is just another choice one makes Fabien. There is no need to turn from G-d; your just as important. But, as for the sarcasm G-d is my own personal choice and the reasons for me alone.

  51. Bozman419

    WTH How does a question about your keyboard and your religious choice turn into homosexual slander. Are you one of those fanatics?

  52. Bozman419

    People are turning away from god because many religions built on the premise that there is a god have proven to be taking advantage of its believers. Random fluke is how science try's to explain our existence, and that is as silly as believing god can save my sole if I repent my sins. The fact is no one knows, and it is wonderful times if WE make it that way.

  53. Fabien L'Amour

    Odd response, given all the homosexual priests sex scandals in churches around the globe, I'd say many homosexuals believe in God.

  54. With Fortitude

    It's obviously sarcasm to sarcasm . Is the last portion of the paragraph (there is no reason to turn from G-d relevant to you as well) ?

  55. Achems_Razor

    It seems that you might as well come out of the closet!

  56. With Fortitude

    (Laughing) very good point! But I said most homosexuals deny there is a G-d and in the same paragraph I said there is no need to turn from G-d ;your just as important. Are you saying that you believe in G-d Fabien ?

  57. With Fortitude

    What closet are you speaking of I have many closets, and why am I coming out of any one of them? Why do you talk in riddles ?

  58. With Fortitude

    My point was this has never happened before and was prophesied to happen during the end of times.
    And, it is happening and it's incredible .
    The reasons it is happening I'm sure are many and religion is most certainly part of the blame. Religion has done nothing but divide us when G-d simply told us to follow him. I don't mind the use of science to understand our creator. I'm just opposed to using it to disprove him. The fact is G-d is real and has left a light for you to follow. The fact is the choice is yours.

  59. Bozman419

    I appreciate your explanation, and that it was delivered politely. I understand your comments now. :) I also agree with you, it is seemingly happening and totally incredible. I sometimes wonder if prophecies come true or do we make them come true? Some one needs to predict something good for a change!

  60. Fabien L'Amour

    I was only curious as to why you omit the o in God, it's very peculiar and I wondered why. If you don't want to explain, it's fine. I am not interested in a 12 posts discussion about homosexuality as it has nothing to do whatsoever with the documentary.

  61. With Fortitude

    It would have been nice if you had put it that way in the first place. I could give you an explanation as to why I omit the O , but then I would require your understanding as to why I do it. Not worth a 12 post discussion . It's a personal choice nothing more.

  62. With Fortitude

    Thank you ! Eschatology is something I've been interested in for a very long time. I would have never imagined the world to change in the way that it is changing. For these prophesies to have been around for such a long time; it's reasonable to be suspicious. So, what I have been waiting for is the Jewish temple . If you do some research you will see how unlikely this is to happen. I believe something natural like an earthquake or something of this nature will occur to enable the Jewish temple to be rebuilt . This for me is the sign of signs .

  63. dmxi

    "Why do you talk in riddles ?"
    ..................asks the riddler!

  64. awful_truth

    Wow! I gave you an out, and you refused to take it, so I will leave you with your own words.
    1) " Same thing with Jesus, he was born December 25th but dies at a different date every year".
    (sounds pretty straight forward to me)
    2) I didn't say you explained his birth date. (I explained it's origin to you) Your original response was that your statement had "nothing to do with the birth of anything real", where you questioned his existence entirely.
    3) I reminded you that he is mentioned in texts other than the bible, thus he must have been real. Your response was that you believe there was a preacher, but question whether he was the "son of god", or "performed miracles". (okay, he now existed, just not the way he is mentioned in the bible)
    4) I then reminded you that the point of the doc was his elevation from 'prophet to god', and that you didn't realize we were already in agreement, and that you should watch the doc first before you responded any further to me.
    5) You then accused me of liable, "You put words on here I never said then tell me to shut up about them". Since I never did or said any of this, (check above for confirmation) I can only assume your pride for 'not knowing everything' has gotten the better of you, and I have said as much. (for this, I am an a**hole)
    The awful truth is Fabien, you are an atheist (or agnostic) who wishes to express his view regarding a religious discussion, (which is fine) however I have not seen any review by yourself of the documentary in question. Instead of thanking me for some historical info I provided for you anecdotally regarding his birthday, ( hey cool man, I didn't know that) you were instead more consumed by expressing your doubts regarding the validity of Christianity, which was the point of the documentary itself. Had you watched it, all of this could have been avoided.
    P.S: Although celebrations are arbitrary, (Ukrainian Christmas, etc) the revision of the story of Mary and immaculate conception are not, and have everything to do with Christ since they were woven together! Take care Fabien.

  65. Fabien L'Amour

    I watched the documentary a few years ago. What is wrong with the statement that Jesus was supposedly born December 25th and dies at a different date every year? You provided the proof it's not his real birth date since you said it was based on the pagan God Mithra. Your interpretation of me saying it "not having anything to do with the birth of anything real" seems to be the problem. I was talking about the December 25th date for the day of his birth, not denying a man most people name Jesus existed.

    It's obviously pointless to debate further as you made your mind on the validity of what I wrote at that point. You attributed me intentions I never wrote right there : "Your desire to change the point of discussion to whether Jesus actually
    existed, (he did) or the validity of pagan mythology itself, (you know,
    myth) is a poor attempt at redirection regarding your own statements."

    You are free to think whatever you want and I am free to deny I made an historical error. Take care...

    P.S. There is nothing awful in being an atheist or agnostic, true or not.

  66. awful_truth

    You are correct; there is nothing wrong with being atheist or agnostic. I will always respect a persons right to decide for themselves what they wish to believe regarding issues of faith since they can never be proven. For the record, I do respect your position, and I apologize if I misconstrued your intentions. (The greatest weakness in the written word is communication) Take care Fabien, and best wishes.

  67. a_no_n

    fit hasn't happened before beccause we never had such widespread education before.

    The "End times" you mention are quite specifically about the fall of Rome.
    Matthew 24:34 quite specifically states that "This generation shall not pass away before these things happen."

    Matthew is quite clearly stating that the end times were supposed to happen back then.

    Science doesn't disprove God, the bible does that!

  68. a_no_n

    Nothing wrong with being gay.

  69. a_no_n

    Not Just Mithras, Odin also rode about during the winter Jul feast and dropped off treats in childrens boots.

    so jolly old saint nicholas is actually Odin.

    Odin also sacrificed himself for the knowledge of the dead.

  70. a_no_n

    heres where you make your mistake.

    We do not question the existence of socrates or plato because we have contemporary sources referencing them that are not themselves.

    Jesus has no such sources, in fact all contemporary sources actually disprove a lot of claims in the bible, for example there was no cencus at the time of Jesus's birth, and a census that required you to travel to somewhere you don't live makes absolutly no sence.

    There are also no sources whatsoever outside of the bible mentioning any of Jesus's miracles or preachings dispite roman literacy.

    to say no one questions the existence of jesus is to ignore a vast percentage of scholarly opinion on the subject.

  71. KS

    If you read Revelation, I'm quite sure the fall of Rome was not what is being spoken about in terms of "end times". A good study bible (with scholars notes) show it is completely plausible and very likely that 'this generation' refers to the generation of the children of christ... since the new testament (not literally his biological children of course, but followers of him as the Son of God who became sin and was crucified as the spotless lamb on the cross to give salvation once and for all for those who accept him as such). There are countless references about 'a new generation' in Jesus so I don't think it should be thought of as what we literally refer to as a generation today.

  72. With Fortitude

    There is no explaining anything to you Anon. Your eyes are closed for a reason!

  73. a_no_n

    there is no explaining, or you can't explain?

  74. a_no_n

    sorry i don't buy that at all. I also doubt very much that's what he meant...you have to ignore the context of his prophecy and who he is preaching to to come to that conclusion.

    If you're arguing that revelations is a literal prophecy then you can't start picking out bits of it to not take literally.

  75. KS

    to ignore such things would be a grave mistake. the bible must always be red in context of when things are spoken, who they are spoken to, and who is speaking. I actually looked it up and the bit you are talking about says refers to "this wicked generation" which applies to every generation- as each is wicked- until Jesus returns. Of course Revelation isn't a literal prophecy, it was a vision. You can't isolate bits of the bible either, the part you are referring to in Matthew must be looked at in context of the whole bible and the Christian message. I'm not a scholar anyway but I'm pretty sure it'd be explained rather quick with someone who had a better knowledge of the verses and scripture than myself.

  76. With Fortitude

    The G-d I speak of has closed your eyes . Your asking me why? I believe you should ask him.

  77. a_no_n

    Odd that god should "Close my eyes" when he is supposed to have given us free will.

    Do you not even understand the most basic tenants of your own faith?

  78. a_no_n

    fair enough.

  79. over the edge

    Just like when god "hardened Pharaoh's heart". Then punished him (and everyone else guilty or not) for having a hardened heart

  80. awful_truth

    For the record, Christ is mentioned in texts other than the new testament. (including the Koran, - not as god, but as a prophet) Thus, it is acceptable to question the 'miracles' that have been bestowed upon him, since they were not part of the original texts, or historical references, but to question his actual existence, is merely anti-religious bias. This is why I used examples such as Socrates or better yet 'Achilles'; his abilities have been given mythological status, but no one is questioning his existence. Any other conclusions are anything but scholarly.
    P.S: It is easy to discredit an entire book for historical accuracy by association of discrediting the concept of 'miracles'. By this logic, would one discredit Newton's entire 'Principia' because he was himself a religious fanatic, or because he couldn't define gravitation? (just a thought) Also, it should be noted that Christ was not referencing himself since he did not write the 'New Testament'.

  81. awful_truth

    Interesting thoughts regarding Odin, and St. Nicholas. (I never new that) That is what I love about history in general. (although it may be based upon actual people, and events in the past, the characters and events themselves may have absolutely no factual basis what so ever)

  82. a_no_n

    I'm sorry but where Contemporary sources (sources from the actual time) are concerned, Jesus is not mentioned anywhere, dispite the fact that the Roman empire recorded everything.

    The difference between Newton and the bible is that Newton had EVIDENCE for his claims...the bible does not, and is proved wrong on most of it's claims.

    There was no Nazareth at the time when Jesus was born, Bats are most certainly not birds, and dispite what God says crop rotation is a good thing!

    You're right though, Christ did not write the new testament...most of it wasn't written until at least 100 years after his death. and the newer the writings get, the more fanciful they are until you get to Luke which I guess to be entirely fictional.

    It's not an anti-religious bias...it's just basic scepticism.

  83. a_no_n

    true, very true. Half the time though the reality tends to be far more interesting than the legend...at least it is for me.

  84. awful_truth

    I respect your skepticism since, ironically, I am just as skeptical regarding Roman history. To begin with, Jerusalem was a mere 'blip' on the radar as far as the Roman empire was concerned. Crucifying one troublemaker might have been note worthy had they not been crucifying 'everyone and their dog', lining the streets with the dead to keep all those in their empire obedient through fear.
    If Roman history was as thorough as you believe, (recording everything) then today we would know the real name of the man they called 'Spartacus", someone who nearly caused their demise. Since the message of Christ never became prominent until the Roman empire was nearly collapsed, there was no reason for him to even be on the radar, regarding their historical reference. Regardless of what anyone chooses to believe, there must be something factual in this, or the prefect (Pontius Pilate) who presided over Christ's trial, would not be mentioned in the new testament at all. Unless your are dismissing his existence as well, it would seem that the new testament appears to have some historical accuracy.
    It should also be noted how much history has been lost from the sacking of cities in ancient history. (Alexandria for example) How much knowledge, and history has been lost through the desire of the conqueror to exterminate any record of the vanquished.
    Either way, in my opinion, it would seem to me that the concepts of 'god' and/or 'miracles' make it easy to jade perspectives (create bias) to the point that people would dismiss everything attached to them. This is why I gave you the example of 'Achilles'. Even Homer's 'Lliad' and 'Odyssey' were dismissed as merely stories, only to be vindicated with the discovery of what is believed to be Troy. (Even his existence is questioned, although Herodotus mentions him - so, were any of these people real, and if not, where do we draw the line regarding history? Perhaps the fact that they were found worthy of mention by anyone is something to consider)
    In the final analysis, skepticism (like beauty) is in the eye of the beholder, and if we are unable to recognize the impact of our own bias regarding it, then we risk missing an opportunity for personal growth. This is something I can't stress enough for everyone of faith to consider, as well as those who dismiss it out of hand. Take care, and best wishes a_no_n!

  85. awful_truth

    I just wanted to point out that science will never be able to prove, or disprove the existence of god. (nor will science ever be able to explain everything)
    In my opinion, science and spirituality are on opposite sides of the equation, trying to explain the existence of the equal sign. I do not believe that science and spirituality are in conflict, and to believe so is to imply disparity where none exists! Best wishes With Fortitude.

  86. awful_truth

    LOL. That was a terrific response to an unprovoked personal attack. Way to stay on target Fabien!

  87. awful_truth

    Right on all counts with the appropriate question asked. Good Job Bozman419!

  88. awful_truth

    Too bad most of reality is lost to the legend, or imagine what we would actually think about the people, and events themselves if we really new the truth. (reality v.s perception) It is like calling them world war 1, and world war 2; but to me, there has just been 1 world war that has been going on for a very long time, and it has yet to be decided who is victorious!

  89. With Fortitude

    What conversation are you referring to awful truth? As for science; we only become misguided when we use it trying to disprove G-d.

  90. a_no_n

    This is going to be a long one, i'll try and break it up to make it easier on the eyes though.

    i think saying Spartacus nearly caused the demise of the Romans is overdoing it. Granted he caused a lot of damage and drasticly changed their attitudes toward slavery, but he was nowhere near overthrowing the empire
    Even battering open the gates of Rome and sacking the eternal city five hundred years later wasn't enough to kill the roman empire off. He was a slave who nobody knew by any other name than Spartacus.

    Pilot in the new testament is also nothing like the man portrayed in other sources. It's incredibly out of character for him to care about or even be involved in the demise of a prisoner the way he does in the New testament. It makes no sense for him to release a prisoner every year in keeping with Jewish traditions...mostly because that was never a Jewish tradition but also because as you've already suggested that's just not the way the Romans did things. They didn't submit to your laws, you submitted to theirs, and if you didn't like it they burned your temples down and nailed you to a post.

    I stand by the statement that the new testament has no historical accuracy whatsoever...in fact we use it's historical inaccuracies to date when the different gospels were written.

    We know that the gospel of Mark is the earliest gospel, and the only one that could have been written whilst witnesses were still alive, although it's refrences to the destruction of the temple may be an indicator that it was written much later. (Since the Romans made a habit of burning temples to Gods that weren't their own I don't think it's the most reliable circumstance to date with.)

    Mark is also the least fanciful of the gospels as it mentions no virgin birth or ancestry to King David, and in my opinion the only one that has any sort of claim to not be entirely legend.

    Though it loses a lot of that respectability by making several geographical mistakes that suggest the author had never been to the area, he also had no real knowledge of contemporary Jewish traditions, and thus couldn't have been one of the disciples or even local to the area, and was most likely a Greek Monk who lived somewhere between Cyprus and the eastern coast of the Adriatic.

    I hope I can at least convince you that i haven't dismissed it out of hand.
    Granted i have a strong Bias that I can't deny. But i like to think i've done enough research to justify that opinion.

  91. a_no_n

    very true...the vast majority of WW2 stemmed directly from the treaty of Versaille, one of the stupidest treaties in European history.

    And the cycle just continues. The whole Israel Palestine situation stems from the breaking up of the Ottoman empire, same with the Syrian crisis. And Afghanistan is still lashing back from the appalling way the soviet invasion was handled.

  92. awful_truth

    I am just expanding upon your statement. You have made it clear that you are opposed to science attempting to disprove god. Would you be equally opposed to science attempting to prove the existence of God?
    Issues of faith cannot be proven, nor disproven. (that is why they are issues of faith - proof is irrelevant) Thus, any attempt either way is an exercise in futility!

  93. awful_truth

    Don't worry, you are not going to hurt my eyes. (I enjoy the discussions)
    Clarification: I am not questioning the validity of your reasoning regarding the 'details' themselves that you have pointed out. (contradictions as such) My position is this.
    1) Pontius Pilot is mentioned in multiple texts, including the New Testament. Christ is mentioned in multiple texts, including the new testament. Historical accuracy aside, it is clear that both individuals actually existed, or they would have not been mentioned at all, from multiple sources. Whether these are accurate accounts of the individuals themselves, who they were, and where and when they lived, is debatable.
    In our other discussion, we both agree that history as a whole is very inaccurate. For that reason, I am skeptical regarding all sources since everyone has an agenda, and a personal bias.
    2) "dismissing out of hand' is not directed at you personally, but at all people in general, regardless of where they position themselves in the theist/atheist spectrum, (over simplification) as a reminder for everyone to remain grounded before passing judgment on what is actually correct. (what do we really know in the grand scheme of things - not much!)
    Combine this with the fact that the New Testament is written in parables, (multiple meanings) is precisely why it should not be taken as a literal account of events. (story telling to create moral understanding)
    In essence, this is why this was a good documentary because it questions the validity of our interpretation of the new testament without religious bias.(questions dogma, and indoctrination) Now, how do you get science minded 'only' people to address this when they are taking it literally? (tough job)
    In the final analysis, I am not attempting to convert anyone to believe in Christ, but to question everything, including their own thinking, and consider that there is 'a truth' in everything.
    P.S: does 2 +2 = 4? the answer is sometimes. (at high velocities, it does not) Everything is relative, and for those who listened, Einstein 'proved' that 2 people can view the same event, derive different conclusions,(instantaneous /non- instantaneous) and yet both perspectives are still correct!
    My only agenda is to get people to accept that 'the truth' lies in the combining of opposites - faith /science together. Take care a_no_n.

  94. With Fortitude

    I think the beautiful thing about it all comes down to faith. I believe G-d meant it to be that way. The question is then ; do I know why I have this faith? My answer would be yes, but explaining it would be an exercise in futility!

  95. Rob34

    When one doesn't meet God, Sri Krishna, with his/her spiritual practise it's simply useless. There is only one reason to become a disciple of Jesus Christ and that is to meet the Father, Sri Krishna. Hare Krishna!

  96. Jon

    Come to think of it, the mission of Jesus was to show God in man. He had to be born of a woman. weaned, raised and even worked to survive. He was quite ordinary and not outwardly privileged in any sense. His tithe was his ministry and he devoted 3 years or so after he turned 30 years old.

    When Jesus touched the hearts of his disciples and apostles with deep respect and love, he declared that whatever you do to the least of his brethren, you do it to him. Thus the mission of Jesus is removed from a personality cult. In effect, Jesus could be in any follower of Christ who is no longer guided by his fellow man but by the Holy Spirit. The Son of God or Christ is a collection of individuals who are spiritually connected with one another.

    Fact is the second coming is not an individual's arrival but the fulfillment or completion of Christ’s body on Earth. Peace on Earth happens as an effect of men uniting with God. There is no need for so many conditions to attain peace because God is one, and if all would unite with God, then they would be one or united in good work as a consequence.

  97. Apolinario Mabini

    Embraces the divinity in all of us? Because of sin, there is no such thing. There is only one deity - God. Divinity is not found in any other apart from him.

  98. awful_truth

    It would appear that you are making a lot of assumptions.
    1) one deity
    2) him(male)
    P.S: Life itself exists due to imperfections. (broken symmetry) If we are made in the image of god, than we are as imperfect as what we were modelled from. Although this statement appears to be a form of blasphemy, I would suggest the same of those who have unrealistic expectations of higher forms of life. (all powerful, all knowing - a contradiction in terms)

  99. Apolinario Mabini

    The more that I read the Bible and study prophecy the more I am at awe on how accurate it is. It is so accurate that it predicted the end times including the current conflict in the middle east. These are not assumptions but words from scripture. If you are in doubt as to whether there is only one God read Exodus 34:14. (I use the term ONE to signify the fact that he is the ONE TRUE GOD as opposed to other "gods" - who the Bible considers as deceptive spirits). Although God's gender should not matter, to answer your apparent doubt, he is spirit and is not human. So he is not limited in male or female form. See John 4:24. However, he did reveal himself as manifesting a male form. In the Bible, there are 170 references to God as the “Father.” By necessity, one cannot be a father unless one is male. He created the first man and the woman second. But both were created in their image. ("Their" - plural because The Father, the Holy Spirit and Jesus' spirit existed even before the world was created. Hence, the Trinity - one in 3 and 3 in one, it's not a simple concept but it isn't beyond understanding). Yes, we were created in his image. But because of OUR sin, we will also experience death both physical and spiritual. This was not the original plan but because of Satan and man's flesh, man fell from grace. An image is not the exact object it was copied from. Just like a photocopy isn't the same as the original. God is perfect because IS perfect regardless of contrary opinion. See Matt 5:38. Definitely, his son Jesus is a man. God doesn't intend himself to be sexist. It's just the way it is.

  100. awful_truth

    I can respect any position of faith as long as it motivates people to be kind to one another, and to look out for everyone's best interests. With that said, Right or wrong, my position is one that is based upon critical thinking which precludes me from accepting anything at face value. (intellectual skepticism))
    My own 'faith' is uniquely personal, since anything humanity has perceived so far, is arrogant, and incomplete. (we are all flawed) The greatest indicator of this are religious positions that pass judgement on anyone (good or bad) that don't fall in line with organized dogma. (we are the chosen ones, everyone else is forsaken)
    I am proud to be a heretic (greek word meaning choice) since I choose to believe something that transcends the petty positions that divide people, and start wars due to intolerance.
    While the bible has great wisdom in it, all written word is open to interpretation, and best considered by the reader themselves. I can only suggest to you to research the original texts, and history surrounding it's inception. In particular, the final 27 books that compose the new testament were decided 325 years after Christ's death, and not translated into English until the King James version in the 16 century. Acknowledging the nature of humanity is the first step in understanding who Jesus was, and what he stood for, something far different than what we see today. (the point of the documentary)
    Last, but not least, perception of the universe only exists due to broken symmetry. (imperfection) PI (3.1415926 etc ) is infinite. To a human, a circle accurate to merely 4 digits appears 'perfect' to us, but can always be improved upon. What most people perceive to be 'perfect' is far from it, and is rudimentary at best, and contradictory in the worst. (if god is all powerful, and all knowing, he should be able to create a weight he cannot lift - a contradiction in terms) To not actually 'think' things through is an insult to the 'potentiality' we were all given! Take care, ands best wishes Apolinario!

  101. Apolinario Mabini

    "if god is all powerful, and all knowing, he should be able to create a weight he cannot lift" - I remember this. I actually thought about this until I started reading the Bible.

  102. awful_truth

    So, did you conclude that 'faith' supersedes logic after reading the bible? (a serious question) If the answer is yes, it is alright; I am just trying to understand your position.
    It is true that scripture has predicted quite a lot, viewed in context. It is also true that the study of 'human nature' increases accuracy. It is referred to as the 'intentional stance'. Once you know what motivates people, it is easy to predict their actions. With that said, the 'end of days' has been predicted by many for quite some time, and well, we are all still here. Sadly, when the day of great devastation comes, (and it will) most people will not likely see it coming.
    Second question: Do you think it will occur in our lifetime? (say 50 years)
    P.S: You are right, that a copy is not like the original. However, 3rd page of genesis, god passes judgement on Adam stating, 'you are now just like me, and you know the difference between right and wrong'. (paraphrasing from memory)

  103. Apolinario Mabini

    For me, biblical truth is based both on faith and logic. I don't consider it blind faith because I see evidence of God's truth everywhere. I am still amazed how recent discoveries support Biblical truth. However, note that the Bible writes that God's thoughts aren't man's thoughts. And the wisdom of man is foolishness to God. During the cold war, the US and Russia thought that the next great war would occur in Europe. However, the Bible has always pointed to the Middle East particularly Israel where Armageddon will occur (Mt. Megiddo). Events unfolding before our very eyes tells us that the Bible is spot on. Ask yourself why does the global elite engage in Satanic worship? This is not only based on their faith but it appears logical for them to do it because by doing so they gain power, money and temporary control over the world. The global elite are experts in human nature and mass psychology. That is how they control multitudes through the corporate-controlled media. On the other hand, Biblical insight on human nature is found in the book Proverbs. The Bible talks about a great tribulation. And Jesus talks about the "end of the age." I will have to review the sequence of events to be able to talk about this issue. Even Jesus admits that neither he nor the angels know when the end will come as only the Father knows. So your guess is a good as mine. However, one can study the sequence of events based on the Bible and you can probably get an idea of the timeline. In relation to your post script, God did not intend for Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. In fact he clearly prohibited them from partaking of it. However, because of their disobedience they opened a can of worms leading to the fall of man courtesy of Satan. For me, this answers the perennial question "if God is so good, why does he allow evil in the world?" There is evil in the world because of man's sin and disobedience. Of course, evil exists because as the Bible explains the devil comes to kill, steal and destroy. My question is: If man is so wise, why does he allow or cause evil in the place where he lives? And as numerous near death patients have testified, there is a coming judgment when one dies and only Jesus can save people from it. :)

  104. awful_truth

    Thank you for your response. Many of the points you raise are spot on regarding the elite, with manipulation of mass psychology, and the media.
    There is one item that appears contradictory. I was of the understanding of modern day Christianity that Jesus is god, (the trinity) so for him not to know what the 'father' knows is ambiguous at best. Of course, my view of Jesus does not coincide with this, as it appears neither does yours on this point.
    You might find it interesting to watch a documentary on this site, (I am trying to remember the name) that showcases an American construction company trying to bring down the temple mount (prevented by Israeli security) to start a war in Israel
    because these 'self professed Christians' believe they are the chosen ones, and are focused primarily on bringing about the rapture. Apparently, the creation of the state of Israel itself was also part of this plan, in the hopes of quickening events to lead to the rapture itself. Not only was it an eye opener, it examined the dangers of self fulfilled prophecy, and exposed those whose hypocrisy violate the tenants of their own faith. (apparently not real Christians)
    I guess the only point we disagree on which gets me in trouble with most Christians is the point I raised regarding the judgement of Adam. There is no doubt according to the bible that they were not to eat of the tree of knowledge, but once they had, was when god made the comment I raised on my last post with you. (you are now just like me, and you know the difference between right, and wrong) This is after the fact.
    This implies that god (like man) is capable of both good and evil, and knows the difference. Considered in context with the old testament, "I am a jealous god, I'm a vengeful god, wiping out humanity with a flood, the destruction of Sodom, and Gomorra, etc; these are not acts one can dismiss as good, than condemn them in humans when we were made in his image. It is important to note that 'the devil' did not perform these actions.
    Since I am of the mindset that all life in the universe (god) exists due to the possibilities of potentiality, (hot/cold, up/down, left/right, and yes good/evil) I find it contradictory to single out and attach one of these attributes of existence (evil) to a separate entity. (the devil)
    Ultimately, what we are dancing around is that there would be no life, or perception of awareness without this, and had Adam, and Eve not eaten of the tree of knowledge, none of this, (or us) could even exist. (sterile)
    So, does this mean that the Garden of Eden was a dream of heaven? ( a place that never existed)
    One thing for certain, evil (greed - exploitation of inequity) is running the world. I can only surmise that the need for judgment from god is pointless, since we are all his children, and flawed from inception. (am I to be blamed for the original sin of Eve?) If the idea that my eternal fate hangs on what I choose to believe, then I must accept that anything we have come up with to date, is crude, unenlightened, and ultimately poor analogies for what everything really is.
    Since I have several profound memories that predate this life, I have come to understand that everything is not what it appears to be, nor is our understanding even remotely close.
    With all this said, these are only my opinions, and are not in any way a judgement of yours, or anyone's position regarding their own faith, or what they believe. I leave you with a quote form Albert Einstein, a man who was not religious, yet believed in god.
    "For me, it is enough to wonder at the possibilities of existence".
    Take care, and best wishes Apolinario!
    P.S: I see evidence of god's truth everywhere as well!

  105. coryn

    Hmmmm....... All believers in one of the thousands of gods and goddesses that men have created over the thousands of years of human evolution, I see. If humans have been evolving for thousands of years, how is it 'God' waited until just a couple of thousand years ago to show up? Think of all the pain and suffering that humans have and will experience, and for what? Children not old enough to walk picked up by a Tsunami and ........ Well, answer me just one more question regarding 'God', and that is, why would a perfect 'God' create creatures that all must eat each other to survive, and usually alive until we mastered fire. How can perfection create imperfection? Reality fits rather awkwardly with religion I find, but someone has to bring you high flyers back down here to earth.

  106. coryn

    GERY, How thoughtful of you to draw attention to my questions. And to have caught my eye by mentioning Kersey Graves, whose book I have right here on my shelf. I have indeed often wondered how Jesus, half-man and half-god, could hide his divinity, his true nature, for twenty eight years - indeed, quite, quite remarkable. I guess it's my anthropological interests that bring both myth and religion into sharper focus, the continued evolution over thousands and thousands of years, each group creating their own 'spirits' at first, tree spirits, water and weather spirits, spirits eventually evolving into gods and goddesses, eventually into warrior gods, leading groups into battle with their neighbors, the winner's 'god' gaining recognition and stature with each new conquest. How else could it have evolved? I can readily see the utility of religion and god belief in an emergent community, as they became a focal point for many behaviors in a person's life, such as deep communion and life and death situations. Does it seem strange to suggest that perhaps only BECAUSE there are no 'real' gods or goddesses that an entire community can 'believe' in what is presented by tribal elders, linked to a creation myth unique to that group?

    And if 'belief' isn't enough for you, pick up a copy of George H. Smith's book "Atheism - The Case Against God", 1989, for a serious discussion of the difference between myth and reality. And also Andrew Dickson White's superb book "A History of The Warfare of Science With Theology in Christendom", 1895.

    "There is no antidote for religion mixed with mother's milk", is the way Robert Ingersoll put it, maybe there's much truth to that.

  107. Gerhardt J. Steinke

    Good to hear from those who have read the same books. Smith's book is coming from my public library. So many books. So little time.

    CHEERS.

  108. coryn

    Thanks, I'm trying to keep up on this machine but it's challenging. My dilemma is shelves of books that have so little value, as people read less, or read it on the web. Oh well.... I do prowl through them from time to time, but sitting reading is a pastime of the past.
    I've always viewed the world around me from an anthropological perspective, over the long haul, the thousands of years of evolution, the pains and torments, even in an extremely truncated lifespan, how grim it must have been. But, as Hitchens says, regarding the hundreds of thousands of years of evolution, why would God wait until 2,000 years ago to 'show up'? We truly live in paradise it seems. And my latest questions are related to the notion that it takes a lifetime of effort just to understand what life is all about. Wouldn't a Creator have given us old age first, and eventually we go back to the womb. We would be born with full knowledge of the world and how to 'do' it without having to kill everyone around us.

  109. tariqxl

    Hahaha. First time I've been on this site for a few months and I come back to read; "I feel a new religion is coming". But I can't be the one to lead us to the promised land. Partly because every other religion has claimed every promised land (even the moons taken). But also I'm no messiah... I'm a very naughty boy.

  110. awful_truth

    Perhaps we were born with the knowledge, and people were brainwashed from birth to forget. ( 'the love of money is the root of all evil', and is running the world, is it not? - just saying)

  111. sonya

    Sorry, but JESUS did not have any children-HE IS the Creator Who came in the flesh to die for sinful humanity. Obviously people will believe anything. Those who "hate" God or who do not believe in Creationism, will try their "best" to do pump out enormous amounts of systematic lies to bate humans into thinking that there is no Creator Who made the heavens & the earth & all that is in them. The Creator created a race called humans so that like the natural family structure that we see, this Awesome and Mighty, Majestic, Wonderous CREATOR too wanted a family. We show very little interest in this Mighty Creator because most people heads can't fathom this, but in reality, He intended that we see Him through the eyes of our heart, which is faith. There comes a Divine Supernatural pull to know this Wonderous CREATOR in EVERY human heart, which if given rightful place, the emptiness that humans fill up with silly pleasures that only last for a minute or two would be completely gone. There is no emptiness in knowing our Creator, no fear, no guessing at everything, Just the pure bliss of knowing how safe and sound you are in His LOVE.

  112. jackmax

    Sonya,

    It would appear that you can't even get the creationist story right. Jesus is not the creator as you have said, he was the son of the creator. I would say that if you were to continue to express your views on the myths and lies of religion it may pay to ensure that you know the correct fairytale.
    Trying to attack non believers with your story is only confirming their point of view that religion is BS and there is no evidence to prove otherwise.

  113. sonya

    Let's see who is correct here! In Genesis the 1st ch of the "Bible" it states that God's Spirit hovered over the face of the waters, so here we have the Holy Spirit extending the function with the Creator to Create. Next in the New Testament in the book of Colossians we see the Apostle Paul writing to the congregation in Colosse in ch 1:13-16-"He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the Kingdom of the Son of His Love, in Whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. He is the Image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him (Jesus) all things were Created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him." In any case, my actual response is correct, I think that you should learn your history of the factual historic accounts of ancients societies, people groups etc. because the "Bible" IS the account of not only all of CREATION, but the lineages of every society on down to prophetically our day! BTW, I did not attack anyone. Thankyou!

  114. jackmax

    You start by saying "Lets see who's correct".

    OK lets do that!!!!

    Firstly as you are the one making the claim that there is a supernatural being you must prove that!!!

    As I know you can not prove that your "magic man" is real the rest of what you have to say is unimportant and a total load of crap.

  115. jackmax

    Do you really believe that the bible is an actual account of history and if so how would you explain all the contradictions that have been found?

    The bible is a fairytale at best and if the you are correct how do you know that after all the different copies that have been made that the copy you are using as your reference is the same or even close to the original text?

    There is also the different and conflicting accounts of the same events through out the bible so in those cases which account do you take as the actual account of the said event?

    Lets look at some,

    Is god good to all, or just a few?

    PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

    JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the
    fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor
    spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

    How many children did Michal, the daughter of Saul have?

    2SA 6:23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

    2SA 21:8 But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of
    Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five
    sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the
    son of Barzillai the Meholathite:

    Is revenge acceptable?

    Psalm 58:10-11: The righteous will be glad when they are avenged, when they bathe their
    feet in the blood of the wicked. Then men will say, "Surely the righteous still are rewarded; surely there is a God who judges the
    earth.
    REVENGE IS CELEBRATED.

    Proverbs 24:17-18: Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when he stumbles, do not let your heart rejoice, or the LORD will see and disapprove and turn his wrath away from him.
    DO NOT REJOICE OVER THE CALAMITY OF YOUR ENEMY.

    As you see when you apply critical thinking to the way you both read and evaluate the bible it would be impossible to except the bible as anything more than a book of fairytales.

  116. Richard Neva

    Amen, brother!

  117. a_no_n

    why would a perfect 'God' create creatures that all must eat each other to survive

    interesting! I've never heard that one before, but it's such a good point when you think about the horror behind being hunted torn to shreds and consumed. Then you take into account that 90% of living things have died in this horrible way (at least until we showed up).

    what loving God would condemn all of his creations to such an awful demise?

  118. a_no_n

    can I ask how you balance being a christian and believing in prophecy?

    If prophecy exists, then there is no free will.

    If everything is preordained then individual humans can't do anything but what is ordained to happen, therefore they have no free will.

    If there's no free will then God isn't who he says he is.

  119. a_no_n

    I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this but modern research pretty much conclusively discredits the bible.

    The flood, the Exodus, and the nativity have all been thoroughly debunked by researchers and archaeologists.

    I've also said elsewhere that Christians can't beleive in prophecy because it's both a pagan practce and it invalidates the concept of free will.

    You also say God didn't intend for Adam and eve to eat from the tree...You've already expressed a belief in Prophecy, so surely God knew what would happen and left the tree there as a cruel trap for them, or he didn't know what was going to happen and isn't all powerful.

    If you ask me Satan had nothing to do with it...But also Satan doesn't have a big part in the bible, he's mentioned twice and neither of those times is it made clear that he is a specific being (in hebrew the word satan means Adversary, as the Greek Diabolus does.) The satan you are talking about comes from Dantes inferno and the writings of John Milton. He's a medieval invention used to demonise pagan gods.

    I take your question and adapt it.
    If God is so powerful and wise why does HE allow and cause evil in his creation.

    And mentioning near death patients is a bit silly too...What do you think Hindus, Shintos Muslims and all the others see during near death experiences (hint: it isn't Jesus)

  120. Apolinario Mabini

    "For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."
    2 Peter 1:21

  121. Apolinario Mabini

    "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be
    false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive
    heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon
    themselves swift destruction."
    2 Peter 2:1-2.

  122. a_no_n

    You don't have to say that, science openly admits that because you literally cannot prove a negative.

    The most common answer in all of science is "I don't know". That's because science is based on an honesty that Religion does not observe.

    At least science can prove what it does claim knowledge to...religion can't.

    Science doesn't disprove God, that is correct...But we can disprove the claims of the bible, and have managed to pretty much invalidate the entire thing cover to cover.

    it's historical claims have all been effectively debunked. It has Geographical errors, and even contradicts itself on several key issues (the liniage of Joseph for example) If the supposed word of God is filled with half truthes, mistakes and outright lies then it's not too outrageous to assume that God doesn't exist.

  123. Apolinario Mabini

    "If prophecy exists, then there is no free will." The two aren't mutually exclusive. There is no evidence that both cannot exist at the same time, e.g. prophecy co-exists with free will. You are confused with the term "prophecy" and "predestination."

  124. a_no_n

    But they can't.

    If everything is happening to a set design, then how can humans be free to act on their own if it's already been decided how they are going to act?

    they are directly contradictory of each other.

  125. a_no_n

    nope sorry, Random fluke is not even close to summing up how science explains our existence.

    You're either purposefully misunderstanding it, or you haven't actually researched it.

  126. a_no_n

    So what?

  127. a_no_n

    doesn't that kind of prove my point for me?

  128. Apolinario Mabini

    They can. First and foremost, prophecy involves general world events. It does not usually involve specific individuals. If you had the ability to see into my future, does that mean you also have the power to control my actions or decisions? Of course not. Your decision now may even alter your future. No one other than yourself decides what action you will take. Whether it is based on deception or based on truth, the fact remains that it is our free choice. You have free will to do that. If you reject Jesus (who actually claimed to be the truth) and go the opposite direction, God will not intervene in your decision. The fact that he does intervene at times in the lives of certain people in the Bible such as Paul, etc. It doesn't mean that he will intervene in the life of each and every person. Certainly, he won't intervene in the lives of people who do not know him or refuse to know him. In fact, divine intervention is more of an exception rather than the rule. Everyone is free where they want to end up. God doesn't force himself on anyone. Like any parent, he can only guide people who seek his wisdom. He, like any parent, cannot control your actions as you are an independent individual. However, he will sit in judgment of each and everyone of us in time.

  129. Apolinario Mabini

    So you need to distinguish whether the prophecy you are referring to is true or false. What you may consider "prophecy" may not be so.

  130. Apolinario Mabini

    I am not sure. I don't really know your point. In fact, it seems that you are here to argue with a preconceived belief system and not to know. I think you just want to confirm your own beliefs. I suggest you seek "like-minded" people to confirm your beliefs. Sorry to disappoint.

  131. a_no_n

    I love the way you can quote a scripture like that and apply it to everyone but yourself and your own pet beliefs.

    Beware of false prophets...except for my guy...My guy is telling the truth, honest!

  132. a_no_n

    i don't consider anything to be prophecy because i don't believe in prophecy.

    that argument can also be turned back and fired straight back at you...do you think you can distinguish between prophecy, coincidence and spin?

  133. a_no_n

    That's like saying you can go left and right at the same time.

    They can't. Either we have full control of our lives, or we are doomed to follow in a preordained path.

    My question is why? Why all of this song and dance for what should be a relatively simple process.

    What kind of parent sets traps for their children the same way God does?
    God makes it impossible for anyone to prove his existence, and then damns everyone to hell for coming to the most obvious conclusion? sounds less like a wise and benevolent god and more like a cruel malicious schizophrenic to me .

    In my opinion, if the God of the bible actually existed, it would be the single most evil and spiteful being in the universe...He's certainly the most evil creature in all of literature.

    You'd have to be a complete monster to force your creations to live through all of this mess to then damn them to hell afterward.

    You say God doesn't force himself on people, i say that's bullsh/t. If he totally does force himself on us by having the nerve to judge us for experiencing a life he couldn't possibly comprehend covered in traps he's purposefully set for us to fall into!

  134. Apolinario Mabini

    I say believe what you like and I'll believe what I like. PEACE!

  135. Apolinario Mabini

    You don't believe in prophecy so why are you asking me about it? I think you are just wasting your time and mine.

  136. Apolinario Mabini

    Clearly, it doesn't apply to you. I quoted it with the mistaken notion that you were looking for the biblical basis for prophecy. But since you admit that you don't believe in it, its evident that you just want to argue. I'd say go to law school so you can do it for living. You can't bill for your arguments here.

  137. Apolinario Mabini

    If you had FULL CONTROL of your life, then why do you ask a lot of questions? Why are you seeing traps when what he actually gives is freedom for those who seek him? Are you trying to convince me with your arguments or are you still trying to convince yourself? If you believe that God does not exist, then why have an opinion of him? It doesn't seem logical for one to have an opinion on something which to them does not exist.

  138. a_no_n

    It all just seems like a needlessly complicated extravagence for a supposedly all powerful being to have to go through and put all of us through. Why so many hoops, so many twists and tricks when you think of all the amazing things that could be done if he just sliced up all the ridiculous red tape and showed himself...Yet he doesn't, because he's not really there, and all of these hoops are just the excuses that priests and monks have come up with over the past 2000 years to try and explain why there's nothing there no matter how hard you look.

    Why do i ask questions? Because i'm a human being. Being inquisitive isn't a sin...in a rational world it would be a virtue.

    I have an opinion because people are allowed to have opinions now that the church isn't in control of everything.

    I'm not naive enough to think that a few comments on the internet are going to burn a hole of rationalism through the dark cloud of superstition that you're entombed in...But perhaps one day when you realise that absolutely none of it makes any sense you'll remember this conversation or others like it and won't feel alone hopeless or abandoned by the world.

    I don't think Hannibal Lecter exists either, yet i have an opinion on him...again i'm allowed.

  139. a_no_n

    because i'm curious as to how you justify this blatantly Pagan practice in your anti-pagan religion.

  140. a_no_n

    unfortunately there won't ever be peace whilst religion has such a stranglehold on people.

  141. Apolinario Mabini

    It's not religion that will save but your relationship with God.

  142. Apolinario Mabini

    The word "pagan" means a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions. Guess who's a pagan?

  143. Apolinario Mabini

    I understand where your coming from...looking at the point of view of an ant about to be stepped on by a person and complaining about it.

  144. a_no_n

    actually Pagan was an insult term for pre-christian religions. Derived from the latin word to describe a country dwelling peasant.

  145. a_no_n

    i'm sure every terrorist, murderer and suicide bomber tells themself just that before the bloodshed starts.

  146. a_no_n

    or the point of view of a person talking about bronze age fairy tales and seeing them for what they really are...But however you want to look at it is your choice...If you need to dehumanize me to make my criticisms worthless that's your choice...unfortunatly it's the usual reaction of the religious when their bed time stories are challenged

  147. Apolinario Mabini

    Clearly, the impending unnatural weather patterns, the increase in the regularity and intensity of earthquakes, wars and rumor of wars, the increase of evil and disrespect in the world and the convergence of countries into a world order, - all prophesied in the Bible will disagree with you.

  148. a_no_n

    really? the bible predicted the exact date time and location of every single earthquake war and misdeed in all of human history?

    Amazing, why i'm quite suprised sunday sermons don't start with the weather forecast.

    So earthquakes, wars etc...things that are bound to happen at some point or another, are all predicted by the bible are they? Give me examples of these things that the bible has accurately predicted!

  149. Apolinario Mabini

    Yup. Check out Matthew 7:6. It's all there.

  150. Apolinario Mabini

    You mean "themselves" right?

  151. Apolinario Mabini

    Especially the Christian religion right? Didn't you know that it Atheism is also a religion? It probably takes more faith to believe in nothing than to believe in something real.

  152. Apolinario Mabini

    Your confusion can be boiled into a single word: SIN.

  153. a_no_n

    Is that it?

    You want to talk about sin do you...ok...i'll talk about sin.

    If you ask me God is the single biggest sinner in the entire bible. He Lusts after the love of humanity,he's Greedy for everyone to bow down to him, not one person is allowed another viewpoint or it's off to hell with them. He's Enveous of anything else people might worship, he Murders wantonly and with complete freedom from consequence, he has endless Wrath...all of these are sins God indulges in frequently...yet when he does it it's ok. Me I ask a question and make a simple observation and i'm suddenly an evil sinner...meanwhile pedophile priests are raping their way across the world, preachers are convincing their parishoners to nail children to bits of wood and burn them alive in west Africa, and baptist money fuels the continuing Civil war in Israel.

    Seems to me this whole concept of sin is completly a55-backward.

  154. a_no_n

    um...no. Religion is the belief and worship of a deity or pantheon. Athieism is a lack of belief or traditional worship...it is quite literally the opposite of a religion.
    I don't go to any church. I don't answer to any priest. I don't pray to anything, I don't thank anything when i'm lucky or ask anything for help when i'm not.

    Also i don't believe in nothing. I believe that i am an insignificant speck of carbon. a monkey clinging to a blue marble hurtling through an infinite space filled with more wonders and beauty than i could possibly comprehend, and it all formed out of chaos.

    That to me is far FAR more wonderful a concept than the idea that there's some schizophrenic bully sat in a cloud torturing everything for it's own amusement. That concept to me makes life seem cheap and utterly worthless. a cruel cosmic joke with a really unjust punchline.

  155. a_no_n

    it pleases me that the grammar is all you can retort against...people always pick at grammar in absence of a counter argument.

  156. a_no_n

    Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw
    your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet,
    and turn and tear you to pieces.

    What exactly is that predicting? I don't see any mention of any event, time, location, or anything else that forms the basis of a prediction...just the usual vague and meaningless nonsense.

    come on, you said it predicted earthquakes...which earthquakes does it predict! I want one of these specific predictions you promised!

  157. awful_truth

    I agree with all your points, save one. Just because religion, and many of its texts are flawed, (especially if taken in the 'literal form') does not increase or decrease the validity (accuracy) of whether god (a higher life form) exists or does not exist. If anything, 'religion' has given the concept of spirituality or faith a bad rap.
    While science is superior to religion in that it accepts the principal of 'I don't know', it is inferior by the same limitation. Science itself, is actually a new way of thinking, and has since lost its 100 % certitude with the advent of quantum mechanics. How much the truth of reality is impacted by thinking, observation, and consciousness can not be decided or dictated by those who choose Newtonian mechanics (certainty) only when it is convenient for their own purposes. (can't forget the uncertainty principle, and collapse of the wave function from observation)
    Ironically, 'I don't know' applies to everyone, yet should only be adopted by those whose position has yet to be determined. For those who have made a choice, I can only state that it is better to stand for something, than to fall for everything! ( a joke) Take care, and happy holidays a_no_n.

  158. awful_truth

    While I may like your analogy Apolinario, (good one) you must admit that a_no_n's logic is undeniable. I am curious, (not ganging up) is it your position that since humanity is the equivalent to an ant in respect to god, that we have no right to question his actions or authority, only those on par with our own species, or less? (know our place)

  159. Tom Carberry

    Can you cite on historical document for the existence of Jesus? None exist. The new testament has so many contradictions and lunacies, how can anyone follow it, much less believe what it says.

    In Luke 14:26 Jesus says, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."

    Do you believe that? Do you hate your mother and father, your wife/husband and children, your brothers and sisters?

    Why would any decent person believe that?

  160. Tom Carberry

    Interesting documentary. Several pretty good books have come out on this subject in the last few years.

    Despite thousands of books and billions of words, little proof for the existence of Jesus exists.

    I do agree with the theme of this documentary of the changes by the Roman Empire christians from the Jewish christians. How much historical accuracy any of the gospels contains people will debate for centuries.

    While whether Jesus had brothers and sisters remains an interesting question, nothing at this point will change the story as written by the Roman Empire and believed by billions.

    And in my opinion, the rabbinical Jews didn't reject the Jewish Christians because the Jewish Christians deviated too much from traditional Judaism, but the opposite. Jewish Christians pretty much adhered to other Jewish theological views, as the Dead Sea scrolls show. But the rabbinical Jews no longer resembled traditional Biblical Jews, because they had become Romanized.

    People need to keep in mind that the Romans ruled Palestine before the birth of Jesus and had expansionist imperialist ambitions all the while. The Romans expected obedience and enforced this with the sword. Watch Life of Brian if you don't believe me.

    Some Jews like the Dead Sea Essenes and Jesus rebelled, but the wealthier Jews cooperated with the Roman Empire, just like the wealthier dictators today cooperate with the American Empire, while it slaughters the citizens of various countries.

    Rabbinical Jews made some major changes to Jewish laws to fit in with the Roman Empire, including abolishing God's prohibition against charging interest, by Rabbi Hillel inventing the prosbul, a contract where the borrower agrees to allow the lender to charge interest.

    People should remember that "organized" religion always serves the powerful.

  161. Your Worst Nightmare

    The New Testament is easily historically accurate and reliable. It clearly passes the test that any document goes through when determining how historically accurate it is. Remember the people in the New Testament not only believed that JESUS was a deity, they they died for their convictions.

  162. justaphysicalist

    "It clearly passes the test that any document goes through when determining how historically accurate it is." This test you speak of, what is it?

  163. Your Worst Nightmare

    Bible doesn’t need defending or protecting from historical criticism. The Bible stands on its own when it come to historical perspective. The Bibliographic Test, The Internal Test, The External Test. I could go on and on. Basically, Bib test- is it the original (Yes), Int test do we have eyewitnesses (yes), Ext Test- does archeology and secular writers support the document in question (Yes)...

  164. justaphysicalist

    Interesting test and your under the impression the bible or just the new testament passes this test?

  165. Your Worst Nightmare

    Its hard not to be under such impressions with so much hard, scientific proof! As far as Old testament goes...

    Archaeologist William F. Albright observes:
    (IF YOU DONT KNOW WHO THIS IS THEN WE SHOULDN'T EVEN BE TALKING ABOUT THIS)
    The excessive scepticism shown toward the Bible by important historical schools of the eighteenth-and-nineteenth centuries, certain phases of which still appear periodically, has been progressively discredited. Discovery after discovery has established the accuracy of innumerable details, and has brought increased recognition to the value of the Bible as a source of history.

  166. justaphysicalist

    A biblical archaeologist, there'd be no bias in his views! Just because a few places and events marry up with the bible doesn't make it the word of god, everything must be accurate. There's a good documentary on this site showing the inaccuracies of the bible.

  167. Your Worst Nightmare

    Is that the only thing you picked out? Understand that every document of antiquity goes through the same process.. Religious or not. And the New Testament is still the best. So how does a documentary stand up against years of studies by NON-CHRISTIAN Scholars. Everybody can turn to a documentary for their version. But what does Academia and modern science say? I'm not arguing that GOD is or isn't real. Im arguing that science backs the reliability and accuracy of the New Testament documents more than any of ancient document of antiquity.

  168. Guest

    Here's is a few tests EVERY SCHOLAR ON THE GLOBE uses to figure out if ANY document is of authenticity. The Bibliographic Test, The Internal Test, The External Test. I could go on and on BUT, Basically, Bib test- is the document in question the original and how long before we have another copy. (Yes less that 100 yrs.), Int test: Do we have eyewitnesses, and do we have eyewitnesses that were NOT WITH the values of the document in question. (yes), Ext Test- does archeology and SECULAR writers support the document in question (Yes). Just a few tests we have here. This is what modern science and the latest Forensic document examination analysis has give us. Homer and Sophocles in reliability and accuracy.

  169. Your Worst Nightmare

    The Bible doesn’t need defending or protecting from historical criticism. The Bible stands on its own when it comes to historical perspective. This is because the New Testament documents are better-preserved and more numerous than any other ancient writings. NAME ONE THATS MORE ACCURATE.... I DARE ANYONE... and show academic solid proof not some looney bin Documentary...

  170. justaphysicalist

    Oh good, you realise the bible isn't the word of god. You think your post is that good it deserves a vote up from yourself. lol

  171. coryn

    "The New Testament is easily historically accurate and reliable." Dream on, you're so far from reality it's painful to me.......
    Wasn't Jesus going to come back, and get everyone straight? Tell me, if you were an all powerful god, would you, could you, create a world like this?

  172. awegahn

    I have no doubt in my mind that Jesus or Yeshua ben Josef or Jmmanuel had family. There are more interesting subjects on Jesus that is not discussed here namely that of his origin and actual life events. For one, it seems recent findings have seen that Jesus never actually was on the cross. This may come as a total shock to most Christians but may sound completely logical to most Asians whose first objection to the whole idea of Christianity would be why the savior wouldn't save himself. Of course that is a very non-spiritual viewpoint, but nonetheless, it would seem more in character for a spiritual Master to flee in to hermitage or other lands rather than to subjugate himself to torture and a gastly death. I think the martyrdom that he is bestowed is more a side-effect of his presence, the followers wanted it and thought that the people needed it, even though Jmmanuel wanted nothing of it. And so someone did die in his place, just not him. Later on most of his teachings were hijacked and used. His teachings was originally much more gnostic. "We are all God", would be a centerpiece in his teachings, hence the phrase: 1 Chorintians 16:9 "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you". For any of you who would like to know more about this see: "The Crucifixion ruse" by Courtney Brown, Ph.D on YouTube. I haven't found a book released on this yet, as this is so new information. But there are other public people who have supported this idea, for instance Andrew Bartzis, an akashic record channeler. You can also find "The Talmud of Jmmanuel", as a book or on Youtube which is an interesting contribution to a version of his story, albeit still portraits his traditional death many new views of his teachings are described there, of course from the subjective view of Billy Meier, a renowned alien contactee. In the end, it all comes down to what you care to believe. Evidence is short on either side of the story.

  173. Jim

    I am even more curious about this Jesus guy with the supposition that he had a normal temporal life. I never, though I was raised in protestant church, believed, or was comfortable, that he was this 'supernatural character. With that, the 'Second Coming' will not come off as advertised...

  174. Attilashrugs

    There were NO "Jewish Christians". The first usage referred to former GENTILES becoming believers in the Jewish Messiah. Nazarenes would be a better term for the Yeshua-believing Jews.
    The question initially was: How Jewish must a Christian become? How much of the Law was the Yeshua-following gentile expected to follow? There was NEVER any question about Jewish Nazarenes keeping the Law. Pentecost was merely Shavuot, one of the Pilgrimage feasts. When the Ruah haKadosh (Holy Spirit) descended and all heard and understood the languages spoken by the many Jews who had arrived from the scattered communities throughout the Mediterrenan world. Therefore the Temple and Feasts were NOT "nailed to the cross".
    And a careful reading of Paul does not by any means undermine the Law. Shabbat was the one commandment to be always remembered was forgotten by the Sunday Church. The Sunday Church has endeavored to be a COUNTERFEIT to Israel, pedaling collective salvation via membership and remaining up to date with one's sacraments (like vaccines)!
    Yet Paul clearly taught that through Yeshua wild branches would be embraced to the Olive Tree of Israel.

  175. Attilashrugs

    The original text referred not to "hating" but "despising". We understand the latter to be a superlative form of "disliking". But it was not. It means to have diminished value for. We are commanded to honor our mother and father. God does not change.
    In comparison to Yeshua however all other comparatives are despised.
    There is historic reference to Yeshua in Josephus.
    That YOU, Tom Carberry choose to not believe, fine. BUT, do not err by inferring stupidity or ignorance upon Believers. Do YOU really think you are much more intelligent than Thomas Aquinas, or Augustine?

  176. Attilashrugs

    Coryn presumes to know God's reasons or lack thereof for Creation.
    Not wanting robots, nor mindless slaves God created humanity with Free Will. God seeks to expand. He has created a new dimension, human consciousness: and seeks to expand into it. But He must await our invitation.
    Further His Presence may not be easily apparent, for that would overwhelm us and force our obedience. To create a tiny planetary island conducive to Humanity required a vast universe. Entropy, the tendency for all systems of order to become disorder is like Mass and Energy: Conserved. For the nearly infinite complexity of humanity, our bodies and brains the negative entropy requires the entropy of the ENTIRE Universe ands its entire History.

  177. charley coryn

    For sure we were brainwashed from birth...... I'm looking back 77 years now and I understand that every government official, every corporation owner, every church leader had an interest in my brainwashing.... I mean my education. It mattered to them because everyone was selling me something, it was their livelyhood. Saluting the flag and saving prayers are brainwashing, for that government may need you to go to war, and that preacher wants you in his church, or those salesmen needs you to want beefsteaks and pressed pants. If only there were enough honest men to run a government....

  178. charley coryn

    "Fact is the second coming is not an individual's arrival but the fulfillment or completion of Christ’s body on Earth. Peace on Earth happens as an effect of men uniting with God."

    Jon, how on this earth would you 'know' this? You're telling me you know the mind of God? Far, very far out dude.....

  179. awful_truth

    Yes, if only we knew now what we knew then. Imagine the possibilities.

  180. charley coryn

    If I could make one change to the world right now, I would require that all children study anthropology, beginning as early as possible. A very broad study which would present the case for science and evolution. Does it surprise anyone that the Catholic Church recently chose to support evolution? Evolution is BOTH a theory and a fact. The crust of the earth, the graveyard of humanity, is revealing its secrets, and they are layers of fossils within the rocks..... and it all tells a story, a story of the thousands of years of human evolution, and not just the last few thousands of years of this or that Religious Leader or Divinity. Scholars are quite adamant about recovering the entire truth of the past, not just the current Deity which might say that a God created humans 6000 years ago.

    Specifically, I want children to learn the truth, the whole truth, and not just one religious group's perceptions, but rather a universal truth that all can agree upon. For example, researchers have learned that there exist 250,000 described species of plants, 12,000 described species of roundworms, 4,000 species of mammals, and 350,000 species of beetles.

    So, tell me, how much space on the Ark would it require for 350,000 named species of beetles AND their food, plus the unnamed species, however many thousands more that might be. And thus a good example of how religious myths should be replaced by facts.

  181. awful_truth

    Sounds like a good idea Charley. Ironically, the bible states nothing about the age of the earth being 6000 years old. This came from an Irish theologian (James Usher) from the 17 century (I think) that counted all the popes, and archbishops back to his satisfaction that the earth was created on September 17, 4004 B.C at 9:00 A.M.
    The fact that this dogma found it's way into modern biblical studies is proof positive that the public must exercise critical thinking, regardless of the source of information.
    Even science has in some ways become the new mythology, since many so called facts are overturned some years after their inception. Of course, it is much harder to repudiate the likes of Newton, and Einstein, and this is a good place to start regarding what is factual, and what is not.
    Take care, and best wishes Charley!

  182. Jon

    Jesus came to tear the Kingdom (of God) away from the Jews and give it to other people who would bear the proper fruits. This is similar to what happened to Saul and David, where the first King of Israel lost God's confidence and got uprooted in favor of a boy-shepherd, David.

    St Paul was a pharisee and among the religious fanatics who persecuted Christians until he was converted. The problem is St Paul's writings got to reintroduce the philosophical insights and mannerisms of Judaism. His knowledge of Jesus was second or third hand, unlike the apostolic zeal that Jesus personally oversaw to complete the transfer of the message of Christ.

    But St Paul happens to convert many using knowledge he acquired from Judaism and also from the living witnesses of Jesus at the time. This makes Christianity dualistic since many who think they are following Jesus are diverted by St Paul's ideas to the ways of Judaism instead. Incidentally before his conversion to St Paul, he was called Saul too.

    But do not get me wrong. the Jews are collectively the sign of validity of the Scriptures. When they finally see light and confess that blessed be the one who came in the name of the Lord, will the reign of God be upon us.

  183. Jon

    Frankly, if you are here for small talk, then the least you can do is read the Christian Gospel since that is what the documentary is expounding from. Otherwise we can post volumes without communicating because you want to be an expert on things you got no idea of.

  184. charley coryn

    Done that.... Read and reread the 'New' Testament, and the Book raises more questions than it answers. It's not a matter of being an expert on anything, I'd just like to know where you got that information. Isn't there a standard version that runs like this, from Wiki:

    "The Second Coming (sometimes called the Second Advent or the Parousia) is a concept in Christianity regarding a future return of Jesus to Earth after his "first coming" and ascension to heaven about two thousand years ago. The belief is based on messianic prophecies found in the canonical gospels and is part of most Christian eschatologies. Views about the nature of Jesus' Second Coming vary among Christian denominations and among individual Christians."

    And does that last sentence mean what it says and you can believe whatever you want to believe? If no one can agree, that makes it pretty hard to pin down reality does it not?

  185. Jon

    If only you put the words of the gospels into actions... Christianity cannot be like Judaism because it is not about gaining more knowledge but acquiring the Holy Spirit. Some say that Scriptures are books of INSTRUCTION. since it tells you what you need to do to gain Life, the gospels too is like that.

    In fact the Gospels are also called "The Way" or "The Good News", because it stays clear from the conventional. Overcoming the world is tantamount to establishing an alternative to what the Scribes and Pharisees offer. The Scribes and Pharisees claim mastery of the Law yet they used this Law to condemn and kill the Son of God.

    Come to think of it, why would knowledge be the solution when it is the root of the problem? It was the learned who killed Jesus because it challenged the conventional way of life they had. The Gospels were clear that the Word is like a seed that dies and then transforms into a huge plant. When it matures, then it may have seeds too that others can use as example.

  186. charley coryn

    Jon

    Curious you would use the one error in the Bible I've always been curious about…..

    "Jesus replied, 'The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds." John 12-23

    Wrong! Think about it…. a seed must die to produce many seeds? But when a seed dies the DNA dies also and can't divide and reproduce. The Bible perpetrates an old error in agriculture which simply isn't true.

    Jon, what you or anyone believes is your business. I am concerned only that we all attempt to discover the reality we can perceive and measure around us…… a cause and effect reality that can be understood according to the scientific method, a method available to measure and corroborate reality.

    There exists no evidence to say any god or goddess, or anything supernatural exists. Religion and science should remain separated, since the former deals with the imaginary and the latter with reality……

    Now try to imagine a world created by a 'God', where every creature must eat another creature, or a plant, usually alive, to stay alive itself. Humans at the mercy of wild animals and his fellow man.

    Peace…..

  187. Jon

    Science Procedure is basically a way to verify facts in the absence of a jury or collective approval. In contrast, religion is a social trap where collective opinions dictate a paradigm of reality.

    Thus, please stop imposing your weak and shallow ideas that limits how people apply science procedure. When Jesus asked his disciples to follow him, that was an invitation to verify the TRUTH rather than a religious imposition.

    Besides, do you not understand that it was religion that killed Jesus? Read again and maybe you will discover the obvious.

  188. charley coryn

    Thanks, Jon, that really helps. I was completely unaware I was imposing my weak and shallow ideas on anyone..... And have a nice life......

  189. charley coryn

    Hubris: An insolent pride or presumption. It's leaking out of you Jon....

    Faith: "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." Hebrews 11:1

    "....hope for; ......certain of what we do not see?" If only there were some evidence for anything supernatural.....

    Your insults give you away...... Perhaps you're angry that everyone can't appreciate you as you yourself do.

  190. charley coryn

    You certainly think you know the mind of God..... but I would suggest that even the notion of 'free will' is questionable...... that cause and effect are supreme. And it's so easy to make up stories that can't be questioned because there is no evidence.

    Do you have any evidence of anything supernatural?

  191. Jon

    You can only speak of your self. Okay you are angry and you are insolent. Read the Gospels and do not confuse them from the letters of Paul.

    Jesus is the Way. He shows how it is done. Put your faith in his method.

  192. charley coryn

    Thanks again Jon, but I prefer reality, for better or worse........

    “We can ignore reality, but we cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.” Ayn Rand

  193. Jon

    I have read a few of Ayn Rand and she strikes me as understanding the difference of talent and mere title to it. She would rather be objective rather than be too simplistic as Marx had been, blaming poverty on the wealthy.

    She uses the term "movers" of society as progressive or productive people who are burdened by the socialists' imposition of wasteful and oppressive or counterproductive programs.

  194. Jon

    Jesus is true man and true God. He was no angel who can deceive people by acting a role just like in the book of Tobit. He is a normal human being, biologically part of the animal kingdom. Fact is he was born in a manger, which is a place where livestock is kept. All else about his becoming human like waiting time for adulthood had to happen; No instant transformations or short cuts for Jesus.

    About his being true God is more about having the fullness of God in him. He does not separate himself from God but rather showed the WAY to the Father instead. This was his mission. He did declare that we are "gods" but that means we are living hosts or temples of the Holy Spirit. We exist to do the Will of God and persevere in love for one another.

    No way did he act independent from the divine. Instead, he had to accomplish his mission by fulfilling the Word, or the written prophesies about his arrival as messiah. Unlike Moses who patterned the rise of the nation of Israel to Egyptian rule by Law, Jesus wrote God's Laws in the hearts of men. He taught men how to be holy.

  195. Achems_Razor

    The father?? what a crock! the only father are the stars who died so you could be born!

  196. Jon

    Fathers care for children. They are family providers and protectors. They need not die to allow the birth of children. Where do you get your ideas and are you claiming to have seen the process where stars die to give birth to another? You lived that long huh? Even mothers who give birth do not die but must wean the young till they are no longer dependent and fragile.

    The Eternal Father is a metaphor for God since He is the source of all life. Meanwhile Sons or children cannot take over the role of God. There is no rule for succession since the Father is eternal or immortal. Even Jesus had to fulfill the Will of the Father and expects his disciples to honor His name in the Lord's prayer

    In Old Testament, God is likened to a potter and men to the clay that is spun to create different or unique objects.

  197. Will

    "He" (God) had a choice to make or not to make. That was the only and hardest choice He had to make. With that choice came this world and all the pain, suffering, and miracles that came along. He made a choice then we made a choice in that garden. He knew when He made His choice that he would also be making ours because if not for creating we would not have chosen in the garden. We were created in something larger then an "image" of God it's was a likeness more so because as I stated He made a choice we made a choice. His choice brought pain because our choice afterward would ultimately bring pain. It was free will though. Odd for us as humans to understand the concept of free will and His choice to create us ultimatly creating that choice in the garden, created the world of sin, created our understanding of what perfection isnt.....and also showing is by that same thought what perfection is. Perfection is what heaven is supposed to be and what the garden was like before sin entered into the world but we couldn't understand that perfection we had in the beggining without the imperfection following and we also couldnt understand the perfection of heaven after we die without seeing the pain of the world before we die. Thats just a scratch of the surface of the complexity and divineness of God.

  198. Will

    A portion of a reply I wrote to another commenters post kind of applies here. The whole thing of free will is very complex. God made us with free will and we used it to create this world of sin but if we didn't create a world of sin we would have created a world of sin. How could we understand the perfection of the garden of Eden or the perfection of heaven without knowing what imperfection was! So the choices that were made had to be made. I know that dosnt fall in line with how we have come to know free will but free will is inevitably attached to the inevitable.

  199. coryn

    And what is your 'God's' Being? And where did he come from? If you were born in Mongolia and were brought up in a family there do you think you would believe in the same God?
    We're moving away from the age of belief and guesswork, if you've not noticed, and we're now in the age of science and the scientific method.
    Peace.....

  200. coryn

    Jon says: "He is a normal human being, biologically part of the animal kingdom. Fact is he was born in a manger, which is a place where livestock is kept. All else about his becoming human like waiting time for adulthood had to happen; No instant transformations or short cuts for Jesus."

    Jon, where would you have received this information from, other than pulling it out of your imagination? Fact is, you're making it all up........ Well, that's fine, but please don't inflict your hallucinations upon others. Thanks..... Peace

  201. coryn

    Will, do you have any evidence of the perfection of the alleged 'garden of eden'? Or heaven, any idea where that is? And what about the other 'gods' in the Bible and throughout history, are you suggesting that they are all imaginary, but that your god is real? Right....... And what kind of 'free will' do you have, if God is pulling all the strings?

    And are you sure that "...free will is inevitably attached to the inevitable."? What is inevitable if free will exists? You're simply defining 'God' to be whatever you want, you can't see that?

    "You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality." is how Ayn Rand so succinctly put it.

    Peace......

  202. coryn

    Face it Nightmare, you're wrong, and your worse nightmare must be learning something new. There is zero amount of proof of anything supernatural for openers........ So you believe Albright and I believe Finklestein, and Thomas L. Thompson of course, "The Mythic Past - Biblical Archaeology and the Myth of Israel", or Hyam Maccoby's "Paul and the Invention of Christianity".

    We're not here to perpetrate the mistakes of the past are we..... to believe without evidence in the hundreds of imaginary gods and goddesses created by past generations? Tell me that after thousands of years of human evolution, of unimaginable sufferings, that a 'God' shows up to lead a small illiterate band of goatherders in the Middle East to commit genocide upon the surrounding natives, is this what you want me to believe?

  203. coryn

    Whoa there, genius...... If God isn't real, how can the Bible be real? Some scientists may '... back the reliability and accuracy of the NT documents more than any of ancient document of antiquity", but that says nothing about whether they are true or not. There are no original documents, only hearsay, passed on for years and years, and scholars know this.

  204. Your Worst Nightmare

    Spare me the nonsense. Don't try to dumb down Christianity as if it was schemed up one day by some poor goat herders. What rock did you come from? You can choose not to believe it and thats fine by me. But to deny that there is any proof of anything concerning the Bible is absolutely false. What I want you to believe is that your ignorant "goat herders" said a guy was coming in the future and he had to be born in a specific town and had to do nearly 300 things exactly. Could this all be fairy tale? yes. But all i want you to do is take a look at the odds. Then take a look at the odds of your faith (evolution). and realize the Evolution is a non-testable concept, non-falsifiable, and therefore not even a proper scientific theory. It violates the basic laws of science and probability. There is no hint in the fossil record that any basic category of plant or animal has ever changed into any other. It ascribes incredibly complex life forms to pure chance. The odds of the accidental formation of a simple living cell to be roughly comparable to the odds of rolling double-sixes 50,000 times in a row. LETS GET REALISTIC HERE

  205. Your Worst Nightmare

    Are you kidding me? Im not arguing that GOD is or isn't real through miracles only ...... Academia covers me. Who covers you? So you are calling Homer (Iliad),Sophocles, Aristotle, Tacitus, Aristophanes, Plato, and Livy all hearsay, passed on for years and years? I think not my friend and you should do your homework before you put garbage out. You've been looking at too many documentaries that screwed up your mind from reality. This is only hard evidence my friend. Not just some wild cockamamie claims

  206. coryn

    So, Apolinario, you know less about atheism than you know about religion......

    Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods and goddesses and angels and devils and all that fiction, due to insufficient evidence. Atheism does not require faith, only evidence of this world, which strongly suggests that the current 'gods' are fiction.

    The anthropologist Bronoslav Malinowski puts it this way:

    "Science is founded on the conviction that experience, effort, and reason are valid; magic on the belief that hope cannot fail nor desire deceive."

  207. Jon

    You mean after 2 long months you got to ask me this? I am flattered that you came back to this post, Coryn, you really need to apply imagination to communicate in writing unless you expect everybody to create a documentary to illustrate point by point.

    Let me paraphrase the Wisdom of Solomon: There is only one God, Man is made in his image and is indestructible too. But by the envy of the devil, DEATH entered the World, and they who are in his possession experience it.

    You see Coryn, God is never divided on itself. Rather, His Spirit is unifying. We all become one body in One Spirit. It was the devil, the fallen angels who separated and divided Creation because these angels refuse to serve the Son who stands to inherit all Creation.

    God created everything including the physical universe that we can observer. He never ceases to work and replenishes creation with more of the same. Now why have room for envy?

    These bad angels have rejected God's Will and plan. They lost confidence in the Creator. They separated from God and have been judged. Their head is Lucifer a name that means light. But now he is Satan, Prince of Darkness. Hell is a place where God is absent. When men follow Satan, then they follow the devil to hell. It is man's decision whom to follow and never God's.

    Man sits in judgment. Follow the Will of God or follow the envy of the devil. Let us not blame creation nor the Creator. Use imagination with common sense and maybe you will communicate. Hope the signals will not be distorted and the message is delivered clearly and completely.

  208. coryn

    What planet are you on? Evolution is both a fact and a theory if you care to know. Look it up...... You're telling me you don't believe in human evolution, in spite of all the fossil material discovered so far?

    It's hard to know what to say to someone who doesn't believe in science, we live our lives immersed in science but you don't believe in causality. The first requirement of science is to have something to examine, but you've not produced any measurable evidence for me. You must be part of the great Intelligent Design movement, that currently appears to be floundering.

    Time to move on....... Peace.

  209. coryn

    Right, I should use my imagination to believe in whatever fiction you're attached to. Good grief Jon, tell me more about the one you call 'devil', let's hear the truth...

    You've got to have some real evidence bro, not this Solomon says or Jesus says, it's all in doubt. Maybe you have no reason to doubt, perhaps you find it satisfying to say this is fact, this is real, without having any objective measure.

    Listen to the Bart Ehrman video I referenced above, he's been a minister and a prof of religion, but whatever you do, don't listen to me.......

  210. Achems_Razor

    Are you writing an expose for comics? a story line for Marvel Comics perhaps? Is Spiderman, Batman, going to be part of the story line Eh? Do you Fundy's actually believe in all that nonsense? You are making some mighty big claims, the burden of proof lays with you to show empirical evidence that YOUR Gods and YOUR Bad Angels even EXIST! Never mind speaking the Universe into existence!

    funny religee's.

  211. Will

    Scientific method.... What you believe in ( I assume evolution ) used the scientific method sure but can you explain to me in detail how they used it properly? It seems you read "things" just as I do.....you chose to take faith in people who have devised large complex calculations and formulas you've never even worked with nor have you tested to your fullest extent to make sure they are valid and proper At what they were intended to calculate.... Please explain carbon dating to me from your understanding ( we'll probably understanding of carbon dating as explain by one of the top 5 Google respeonces you read right before replying to this) of it and how old this planet is....without a shadow of a doubt arrive at a number an exact number...because you see numbers are very exact....of the age of the earth.....then I will find (from Google also mind you) another date possed by another person....then another....and another....and another.....because it's never the same. We're always "fixing" our methods.....or in another perspective just realizing what we previously believed was wrong. Sooo where I'm going with this is simple....you believe in men/women that agree that the methods they use are so concrete and so astounding that all religion is deemed false but they can't use those same calculations and equations to tell me exactly what the age of this earth is.... That's fine

  212. Will

    There are no "gods" in the bible....there is one true "God"....And you think I'm ignoring reality? Ok well let me give this a shot real quick......you believe in scienctists not science.....you believe in calculations you can't fathom because you don't care to do them yourself and find that the answers you get will differ then from other scientist.....because every time I hear from an evolutionary standpoint how old the earth is the answer I get is not exact and is always up for debate......now stick with me hear....every time I add 2 plus 2.....I get 4.....now I understand the calculations that go into carbon dating are very "complicated" but I feel that because they use formulas and math to preform these test.....mind you with other factors in the process.....but the answers are never exact......I love math....I love math because it's always the same....it never changes....but for some reason the math that goes into carbon dating and dating our earth and universe is never exact......that's what leads me to the Lord.....reason

  213. Apolinario Mabini

    The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity; there is none who does good. Psalm 53:1.

  214. coryn

    Hmmm...... Makes you wonder why the prisons are filled with Christian believers and not atheists, doesn't it? And, "They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity..", well, let me think of what 'abominable iniquity' I've done lately.....

    Good grief, the Book is wrong..... But we already knew that, didn't we? And you suggested that it "takes more faith to believe in nothing" than to believe in reality", well, faith is a guess, a hunch, a maybe, a might be, a could be....... Just as it says at Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." "Hope for? Certain of what we do not see? Like waiting for Jesus to return?

    Atheists don't 'believe in nothing', atheists believe in a reality that they can see and measure, period. It's called science......

    What omnipotent, omniscient 'God' could possibly have created a world as stupid and ridiculous as this world? And why? Was God bored, or lonely?

    Peace.....

  215. coryn

    Will, I wish you luck in achieving definitiveness and accuracy and exactness in anything on earth, since I have found that extremely difficult. There appear to be two or more sides to everything. Of course your answer is what I expected, that your 'God' is the only 'correct', or 'real', God, and the others, including the Hindu and Jain and Shinto gods, are the 'wrong' gods. And the gods of the past, they couldn't be real either. Hmmm......... Let me see...... Here's something from the net:

    "(Genesis 1:26)--"Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness . . . .'"

    (Genesis 3:22)--"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil . . ."

    (1 Corinthians 8:5)--"For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords")."

    (1 John 5:8)--"For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."

    The Bible tells us that there is only one God in all existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8). However, it also mentions "other gods." For example there is Adrammelech and Anammelech (2 Kings 17:31), Asherah (1 Kings 18:19), Baal (Judges 3:7), Chemosh (Num. 21:29), Dagon (1 Sam. 5:2), Molech (Lev. 18:21; 20:2-5), etc."

    Then they say the Bible "is not contradicting itself. When the Bible speaks of other gods it is speaking of false gods that have no true existence."

    Only according to Christians..... not to the others.

    And your point about 'reason' is interesting, since to me an essential component of reason is evidence that can be measured and corroborated. Certainly you must admit that reason is coming up with a lot of correct answers, which contrary to religion, if science is wrong, then reason can come back and change it. Religion looks backwards, reason looks forward. Seems pretty obvious when you think about it. And what if 'reality' at another level operates differently than at our human level? Should we abandon science because religion thinks it has all the answers?

    And I'll bet that your conception of 'God', and of religion, will not agree with anyone else's. Your mind will create a unique picture just as will anyone's, simply because that is the way the mind seems to work.

  216. Jon

    Well, if you cannot handle criticisms then remove the discussion part and sell your ideas without feedback. In the real world many read Bibles and participate in religion. A lot hate the religious for poor quality control and not really because they have lost faith in the shared belief system.

  217. coryn

    Jon, I never said I couldn't handle criticisms. And regarding the real world I know that 90% or so go to churches, read holy books and talk to saints and pastors. They've mostly been brought up that way, just as I was. The goal of life and learning was to do as your parents and elders did, believe what you were told and never question religion. And often there was the added incentive to participate because if you didn't or don't you'll get shunned and ostracized, or burned at the stake, or maybe something really painful such as being pulled apart by four horses.... I digress.....

    And I will wager that there was a time in man's prehistory, before the ships at sea, when 99.9% of the humans believed the world was flat and that the sun was circling the earth. They were all wrong.... But you're right, people want to believe, desperately in fact, they want absolute knowledge, and also a world that doesn't change perhaps. I wanted desperately to believe until my prayers and supplications went unanswered once to many times. There was no one there......

    Fortunately, to me none of it matters. I expect to return to a state of elementary particles shortly once my consciousness lets go, and my bladder relaxes and I can finally be at peace. When you figure it all out, let me know.....

    Peace.....

  218. Apolinario Mabini

    Yes, because they repented and turned to Christ inside the prison. If you think you are more righteous than those in prison, think again. The apostles and Jesus himself were imprisoned at one time or another during their lifetime. Then, just like the thief on the cross which went to paradise ahead of those who consider themselves righteous or superior, you'll be wondering why they'll be going to heaven. "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God..."1 Corinthians 6:9. Oh this world became fallen not because of God but because men chose to follow evil over good. Man is to blame not God. "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight." 1 Corinthians 3:19. You can't quantify evil yet it exists. You cannot quantify spiritual forces, yet they clearly exist. A new satanic world order is dawning upon us and you cannot by any means quantify that as science. "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Ephesians 6:12. "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14

  219. coryn

    Hmmm........ Honestly I prefer freedom rather than any organized thought regime, be it religious, military, union, whatever. You sign on to some religious regime for example, and spend the rest of your life in fear and submission to who knows who or what. Imagine the freedom to think any thought, and the freedom to control your own life. It sounds outrageous, doesn't it? Yet it's all a state of mind, isn't it. Think of the freedom..... the freedom to not fear the judgement of others.......

    Regarding prisons, I don't know which prisons you're talking about, but where I've been, it's the same people as outside, about 90% Christians, 10% atheists and others. They go to church services to get out of their cells, to meet with their friends, forget they are in the place, whatever. It's a racket, the church gives you a bunch of hurdles to jump over, then judges you and scares the hell out of you telling you you're going to a place called hell, which can't be found and no one has ever come back.

    You can't live a lifetime without getting wise to this racket. You want to know what really gets me started? It's one simple idea. follow me closely here......... A priest molests a child. The child lives with it, and suffers terribly all her life. The priest continues molesting children with no punishment from God and continues working in the church. You say the priest will be punished by God in the afterlife, he'll be put in hell. Do you see what's wrong with this scenario? There are many, many, many priests and pastors and reverends, and many, many more suffering children. If there were a just God he would kill the priest on the spot, that's how I know religion is a story, and not the truth.

    Peace....

  220. Apolinario Mabini

    Just because a person calls himself or herself a Christian doesn't mean they are. The proof of Christianity is in their fruit not on their label. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. Proverbs 9:10. The freedom I am talking about isn't freedom that you are thinking about.

  221. Achems_Razor

    Because of YOUR Ho of a God. The creator of modern computing/the father of modern computing, "Alan Turing" since he was a homosexual was persecuted and chemically castrated by British Law because of Your assinine religion, before dying at the age of 41 by suicide, you have the nerve to spout your religious scriptures of homosexuality while perusing the inventions ie: the computer ...of the one whom you and your gods abhor!

  222. coryn

    "The freedom I am talking about isn't freedom that you are thinking about."

    Then maybe it's not freedom......

  223. coryn

    "The freedom I am talking about isn't freedom that you are thinking about."

    Then it's no freedom at all.......

  224. Jon

    Well, that is for your personal integrity and your beliefs. I am just sharing mine. Hope that is not harmful since from what I know, a rebuke is better than flattery and an honest answer is the sign of true friendship.

    God corrects whom He loves.... I hope you get to read that part from the Holy Book also.

  225. Apolinario Mabini

    It is. It's called freedom from judgment and eternal damnation. What's the use of 80 years or so of freedom, when you spend eternity in hell?

  226. Apolinario Mabini

    That's not my asinine religion because real Christianity doesn't do that. Did Jesus persecute people? No. Real Christians don't do that. They'd die for people before killing or hurting other people.Just because people call themselves Christians doesn't mean they are.

  227. Achems_Razor

    Nice try at back pedaling, cherry picking, apologist, you just quoted YOUR bible scriptures that you guys take seriously, now you are throwing in YOUR gods presumably son into the picture who according to the man-made new testament is supposed to negate all the horrendous acts that YOUR schizophrenic god did muster from antiquity, give up your computer you hypocrite because as your man made scriptures show it is the devils work made from the spawns of hell!
    Real Christains?? give me a break! just more stuff that you looneys make up!

  228. Apolinario Mabini

    That's just the demon inside you talking. It just needs to be cast out. Good luck.

  229. Achems_Razor

    There, you just proved to everyone what a looney you really are, got you backed into a corner did I? so as most all religee's all you can do is to resort to ad hominem!

  230. coryn

    Right, and what evidence would you have for a 'hell'?

  231. Apolinario Mabini

    Read "To Hell and back" by dr. maurice rawlings. testimonies of people who experienced clinical death.

  232. Apolinario Mabini

    And name calling is the height of philosophical argumentation, right? lol

  233. coryn

    Wow, so you're not concerned with evidence and reality, and you've bought the whole bible story, hook, line and sinker. So you don't need to think, you just quote bible verses and call that reality.

    You are aware there have been hundreds of gods and goddesses created by man over the thousands of years of human evolution, but that doesn't bother you. You've chosen a genocidal god who kills people by throwing "...large hailstones down on them from the sky, and more of them died from the hailstones than were killed by the swords of the Israelites." Joshua 10:11 So 'God' can kill and maime and commit ecocide at will..... How bizarre, the O.T. Bible reads like a manual for genocide, not a holy book.

    For these reasons I disavow God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, it's all fiction.......

    So the killing continues in Israel because of these myths from a 'Holy Book'. Truth is the humans will likely consume themselves in a fit of anger, throwing nuclear bombs at each other in God's name. What a disgrace......

  234. Apolinario Mabini

    The Bible has proven itself through prophecy. All the events that it has prophesied has come to pass and it is still being fulfilled as we speak. The killing in Israel continues because of man's sin not because of the Bible. I don't think we'll get anywhere debating this. We will just have to agree that we disagree. I believe it and you don't. There is nothing to resolve here.

  235. coryn

    Amazing..... With a word like 'sin' you can dismiss the genocidal tragedy of the Palestinian people, the original inhabitants of the land. An excellent example of how religion distorts the mind. And the world watches while the Americans give Israel billions of dollars, how despicable. Look how America is reeking genocide around the world, such as the bombing of Laos.... for what, to make us safe, so we can continue to suck up the world's resources?

    Humans can't accept reason in place of mythology, that's the whole story.......

  236. Achems_Razor

    Right. YOUR god of the old testament, "Is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it: a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomanical, sadomachistic, capriciously malevolent bully"

    -Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion.

    Not counting the other 28,000,000 gods in recorded history, nor of the 300,000,000 gods in Indian religion.

  237. Apolinario Mabini

    That land was promised to Abraham and his descendants. And America's prosperity will only go so far as it continues to bless Israel. Note everytime America forces Israel to give up land for so called peace it gets hit by a disaster. That so called peace is illusory because Palestinians have no intention of giving peace a chance (read the Quran, it commands them to kill all the infidels, e.g. the non-muslims and they plan to drive Israel to the sea). America is sowing war around the world because ordinary Americans have lost control over their own government to the global bankers/military industrial complex. The US hasen't had a truly independent President since 63. Both democrat and republican Presidential candidates are financed and controlled by the same groups and so is the US mainstream media.

  238. Apolinario Mabini

    So if its fiction to you why do you get so hot and bothered by it? You don't see people get bothered by Snow White or the Easter bunny do you? lol

  239. Apolinario Mabini

    Oh by the way, I've lived in several countries and for one am witness to the atrocities of Muslim extremists. They just sow violence wherever they are.

  240. coryn

    Interesting, I do agree with the second half of your post, but the 1st half is complete fiction. You've bought the myth. It says "...promised to Abraham" and you buy the myth that a 'loving God' has ganged up with Israel and slaughtered a bunch of itinerant goatherders, people in the middle east 2000 years ago.

    I suggest you read Edward F. Henderson's "Maps and Mythology - What Israeli Records Reveal About the Land and People of Palestine", 1982, to see the Israeli maps concerning population growth of the area. But that does't really matter, does it? Only 'the Word', as expressed in the story matters, the words of one book.

    "Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The Pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having 52 souls to every square mile, and not 25% of them Jews' so we must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the tribes in possession as our forefathers did, or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population....", Israel Zangwill, 1904

    "...the difficulty of Zionism is essentially one thing only, its attempt to settle a country that is already settled...", Vincent Sheean, 1935

    But you're telling me that nothing matters but the Book and it's stories. That's not reality to my mind.....

    peace

  241. Achems_Razor

    Do you believe in the "Rapture"? that I presume is part of your delusional religion?

  242. coryn

    To believe that all three religions claim the same 'god' and that He gave them three different 'holy' books that tells them who to kill, such as stargazers and delinquent teen age boys..... This requires a complete denial of reason. And to say that Islam is the most irrational is certainly a classical understatement....

  243. Apolinario Mabini

    FYI. It's not the same God. Jehovah of the Bible and Allah the moon god are totally different entities. If you read the Bible and compare it to the Quran you'll know that the two aren't the same.

  244. coryn

    Watching Christianity splinter into so many different sects and denominations is all the proof one needs to know there is no reality involved, it's all fiction and imagination. Each person creates god in his mind and so no one can agree. What is God's Being...... no one knows. To say a man is made in God's image is ridiculous, you can't even tell me what God's Being is.

    The nature of the Christian God is found in the National Catholic Almanac, so let's see if man is made in the image of God...... It says God is almighty, eternal, holy, immortal, immense, immutable, incomprehensible, infinite, invisible, most wise, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, perfect, supreme and true. Hmmm....... do you see anything in that list that describes you, Apolinario?

    George H. Smith has covered all this in his book 'Atheism - The Case Against God'. In simplest terms God claims assert that God has Being, but not the same as our Being, which is flesh and blood. Tell me, in what way is man 'made in God's image"?

  245. Apolinario Mabini

    I guess you are oblivious to the term "satanic deception." And for someone who believes that God does not exist, you sure spend a lot of time thinking about Him. It's clear that you are not trying to convince me but you are trying to convince yourself of something. Check out the book "A Case for Christ" written by former Atheist Lee Strobel.

  246. coryn

    It's rather descriptive but I have no knowledge of a satan. My life is simple, I was born on this earth, I make 'mistakes' since I was created with no knowledge or experience, but I don't accept words like 'sin' or 'salvation' and such as they have no objective referent in the world I live in. What is Satan's Being?

  247. Apolinario Mabini

    You are going to spend the remaining years of your life debating something you don't believe in? Frankly, I have better things to do. If you want philosophical answers about God, start with Blaise Pascal's wager. What's Satan's being? You can always google that. If you want a Christian perspective you look at the Bible. The obvious answer is look around. Why do you think the rulers of this world are worshiping Satan? "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14.

  248. coryn

    Or you could google semantics to understand what 'Being" means. 'Being" refers to 'Isness', and to say that something 'is' means there is a referent, an objective something existing in the world that I can point to and/or describe. This is basic semantics, which is the foundation of our communications. A 'chair' is this object I am sitting on, it exists to my senses, I can point to it. You can see and feel it. A 'devil' is ....... what? What can you reference? Has anyone seen a god or a devil? Or can you only use more symbols, more words, to 'describe' what you mean. What is a 'unicorn'? You can describe a unicorn but you can't show me one, so I suggest it doesn't exist either.

    This implies a 'contiguous' universe, a universe that is described and governed by the laws of physics and the laws of nature, where every particle is 'next' to or related physically to something else, and there are no gaps where a devil or a God can insert itself and act at will. And there no 'nothing'. But if you don't accept a deterministic universe then we're talking apples and oranges......

    Atheism says only that there is no objective evidence for anything supernatural, yet. Nothing that can be agreed upon at least, thus there are many, many gods and religions, just as we in fact see around us.

    I appreciate talking with you.......

    Peace......

    Incidentally, since my remaining years are few, I try to debate what is real and what is not real, since the distinction appears to be more than incidental to the killing in the world, and the tremendous suffering among children and elders. Why is it eastern religions don't have genocidal and ecocidal gods such as Judaism and Christianity do? The gods of the world are so very different, it makes me think they must be created by men.

  249. farbertwo

    talk about stacking crap on top of crap. There was no Jesus.

  250. mumzy

    enjoyed these comments,but I must say that we all got to believe and have faith in something,and its up to each one to educate our selves,with out some type of hope we all are lost to the ages,

  251. Viewer

    High quality documentary. Definitely worth viewing.

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