We Need to Talk About Islam

2015 ,    »  -   565 Comments
504
7.43
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Ratings: 7.43/10 from 385 users.
Storyline
We Need to Talk About Islam

The documentary film We Need to Talk About Islam could just as easily be called an opinion or editorial piece. It presents a thesis statement of sorts very early on, and audiences aren't left wondering what aspect of Islam needs to be talked about according to the film's narrator and presumably its' creators. Various news footage, online videos showcasing Muslims admitting that they believe in the Quran, and footage displaying environments under Shariah rule are combined to show viewers why the supposed narrative of Islam and terrorism not being mutually exclusive is all wrong.

The film works to do one thing, and that is to persuade the audience that Muslims are bad, the narrator even gives a list of reasons why he believes all Muslims are bad, but is careful to explain that by bad he does not mean terrorist.

The film is curious in the way that it opposes the religion of Muslims. Much like the "All Muslims Are Bad..." bit of the film works to distance bad from terrorist, the narrator spends quite a bit of time (with the help of news footage from here and there) making sure that the audience doesn't mistake the religion of Islam with any one race; seemingly in an attempt to not appear racist before negatively critiquing the western news media over going out of their way to not attach Islam with the word terror in order to not appear racist. We Need to Talk About Islam also makes a point of attempting to separate the faults of Islam from the faults of other religions, ironically through listing issues with the religion that ring true of Christianity as well, including attitudes towards homosexuality.

There are times in the film when good intentions and practical thinking points seem to be more at play than a desire to attach terrorism with Islam, but those moments can easily feel difficult to reconcile with the rest of the film. We Need to Talk About Islam states that non-extremist Muslims are irrelevant when compared to the Muslims who are extremist; a claim that raises eyebrows not because it may be offensive to Muslims, but because it is a logical fallacy in the form of a slippery slope and a way of thinking that is perhaps just as dangerous as the narrator and other notable atheist who are shown speaking throughout the film insist that any religious faith is. What is left to talk about after we decide that we believe in the points being made by the film's narrator? You decide.

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565 Comments / User Reviews

  1. saj

    your argument was put forward was poor. there were huge gaps and filled with fabricated information i.e. FGM. just because you have placed soft music in the background doesn't mean what you were talking of was valid in any sense. I would highly recommend you to please read quran and stop try to point out difference and talk of unity and peace...you little war munger. Btw, male circumcision happen in Judaism as well.

  2. saj

    FGM is a cultural problem not a religious problem!

  3. Laurent Franssen

    I watched some and I see this as an anti-muslims point of view,
    not a documentary.
    The first 10 mins are obvious how " why we dont criticise " wich isn't accurate and " why we praise " wich is a stupid statement.

  4. Martin Ellacott

    A grdeat video. Radical islam (is there any other kind) needs to be criticized for it's violent and evil actions.....though Russell Brand is the wrong guy to pay any attention to, whatever his opinions are.

  5. grs

    I agree this doc is incite-full, but also insightful. i know many muslims, many who are affiliated with their local mosque or temple-they are generally warm, but fairly devout. i pity the fool who would spit on their beliefs. I was thinking, yes, CNN is protecting themselves from retribution, but also respecting a religion and culture that isn't theirs. In the context of some of the other docs like a secret history of the CIA or terrorstorm, I sympathize with how muslims and their counties have been vilified by the west. Yet there are also idiots who make no bones about making the entire earth muslim. No need to stir up the kettle, eh?

  6. John Joe

    Yes we do need to talk about Islam. Just as we need to talk about the Jews, Social Marxism, Feminism, Multiculturalism and Freemasonry. Enough of this "protected species" BS.

  7. lady

    Yes we need to keep talking about this topic ... it has taken me three years to get my family to see the truth ... about Islam .. people in the west are so naive about this religion.

  8. losing faith in humanity

    This is really sad. This is not worth my time or effort. All you are doing is promoting hate. At the start of the video you mentioned that the killing of the cartoonist has been portrayed by 'terrorist'. In fact, media loved this opportunity to promote more hate towards muslims. It is a religion of peace, so is Chritianity, Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Wicca, etc. These are religions, they are history. Get over it. If someone wants to follow it, let them. Making a documentary in hopes to "enlighten people" is as idiotic and time wasting as talking to a group of blindfolded deaf people. A group of humans are happy, it's their choice. Personally, when I see a group of humans commiting crime and yelling "In Gods name", I think of brainwashed sad individuals. We all want paradise and telling someone they'll be in paradise if they commit a crime then surely they'll commit a crime. They believe this not because of religion but because the lack of education in religion and life. The west has traumatised countries like Iraq and Aghanistan. No education, no health care and no healthy life style in their home towns, they are in 'hell'. They want a way out, and that way out is paradise. They get there by commiting crime. It's not religions fault, it's the f--king west ruining peoples life.
    I'm sorry if I caused offence, but I am offended by this thing you call a 'documentary'. Not because my religion but because you're accusations of how a certain faith equals terrorism. What about other terrorists acts? Are they also influenced by Islam?

  9. steviecomment

    Awesome video. All points were spot on. Shame on the western press, they have rewarded violence and reinforced it's effectiveness.
    Disagree with me, and i will beat you senseless.

  10. steviecomment

    How do you know Russell Brand is the wrong guy to pay attention to, if you don't know what his opinions are. Very confusing.

  11. Seeker of Truth

    Are you somehow trying to defend Islam? You already admit that FGM is a problem, which is in agreement with the video. To separate culture from religion in an Islamic society is ludicrous and arbitrary, if not completely impossible. Yes, there are some Islamic societies that do not perform it, but in those that do, it is almost always religiously justified. In secular societies, such as the USA, religion can be thought of as a subset of culture. However, in non-secular societies, such as an Islamic state which institutes sharia, culture is a subset of religion.

  12. steviecomment

    Your counter argument is very weak, the music has no bearing on the information shown in the film. Why don't you attack a specific part of the film, using evidence and reason.
    And who mentioned war.

  13. Jake Harris

    For being, "not worth my time or effort" you sure spend both time and effort. Just like Black people shouting down anyone who comments on Black crime as a "racist" you refuse to consider any point no matter how factually based. When a person can not accept their mortality they go crazy or turn to religion and accept any fanastical explanation and follow any unfounded rule in the singular hope of avoiding the finality of death.

  14. pwndecaf

    I am done defending Muslims. People are people, but if their world view is informed by their religion, Islam is worse than most. I don't see how an illiterate "prophet" from any century can be useful to us.

  15. Justin

    There are some valid points in the second half of the documentary, but a lot of the statements made, particularly in the first half are based on misleading statistics and half truthes implied to be absolute fact and expanded to a religion where they would be more appropriately described as regional phenomena. You're not really asking a question, you're imposing a view. They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and I think that is appropriate here as well. I think that will only succeed in polarizing people further. If your aim is to have spirited rational discussion, perhaps you shouldn't start by pissing on everyone elses beliefs before asking questions or making arguments. It doesn't really help the atheist cause. Certainly provocative, but I wouldn't say it is thought provoking. The first 10 minutes was rubbish, I almost closed the window.

  16. Jim Anglin

    Quite good except for the utterly silly conclusion about making aging a thing of the past and humans going off to live on Mars.

  17. the silenced masses

    Are you done with defending Americans too? After all, no one else invades more countries, overthrows more governments, sponsors more terrorists or murders more innocent people than America.

    I really don't see how the planet can survive much more of America's ending wars to control the world

  18. pwndecaf

    I didn't bring that up and I don't recall that it was part of the documentary, either, but thanks for attempting to read my mind.

    No, I'm not in favor of the USA taking war around the globe. You?

  19. Sam

    it was a response to the utterly silly fatwa which bans muslims from going to mars... articles of this fatwa were shown in the film.

  20. jack

    great comment. I'm wondering why you waited until after you had seen "some" of it until you commented about what the whole film is.. would have been great if you could have commented on the film for us BEFORE you seen "some" of it because that is the type of comment we all think is worth our time reading

  21. jackmax

    A religion of peace!!!! So it would appear that you haven't read the koran or the bible for the matter. if you had you would see that both books promote hate, intolerance and violence though out all Abrahanic religions...

    It would seem to me that people don't understand that "freedom of religion" also includes "freedom from religion" and the soon the religee realize that they don't have the right to force their BS to others the better humanity will cope with the more important issues we are all facing like global warming and the destruction of our plant.

  22. the silenced masses

    No. And one of the most despicable things the US has done is arm, train and fund Islamic extremists. The US created both al-Qaeda and ISIS. The US is behind all of the problems in the middle east and created the entire threat of Islamic terrorism in order to give them an excuse to invade countries and steal their resources. All the while the government and media have instilled deep Islamophobic feeling in the minds of the brainless zombies back home. Maybe one day people will wake up and realize they've been had

  23. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    Well by judging Islam to be the "worst" what criteria are you using? Because actually statistics would show that No religion can even come close to the global atrocities, genocides, slave trades, forced conversions, rape, plunder, pillage, holocausts, World Wars, militarism, imperial colonization etc etc etc that Has been done in the name of Christ by Christians. And I know your typical response will be that those event were not done in the name of Christianity but they were done by politically motivated tyrants. And I can show clear evidence of how Christ was invoked for every single one of those atrocities. In fact I challenge anyone to find a more genocidally violent and terror-filled book than the bible. Where God commands his people to attack and murder every leaving creature of a country and also commands them to take the women as rewards. Thats God commanding mass rape of women and girls right after he commands you to murder hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

    Google what percentage of terrorist acts are commited by Muslims in US and EU. its less than 2%. These are official statistics.

    You think I can't put together a documentary where i showcase every crazy nut job that I can find that belongs to christianity or any other religious group for that matter. Muslims are stupid as hell but so are every reilgious group. Christians believe that Chrsit is going to come back from the dead, thousands of years after his death and come rule the world with their Gods laws. NOW doesn that mean that all christians wont to impose biblical law on the world? Yes it does. Just like fools who believe in quranic prophecies about sharia law.

  24. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    Here I am disagreeing you racist, redneck inbred hick. Read what the FBI states that right wing christian terrorist committed more terrorism than any muslim group. In fact, statistical fact that muslim terrorist acts constitute 5% of the terrorism in the US. You are hateful malicious people that always need some group to pick on and demonize. Meanwhile Israelis have successfully taken over the US government, media and the banks. These muslims couldnt take over a 7/11 store. The real threat is operating in complete impunity they have you chasing a bunch s*upid sand kickers.

  25. Ruthello

    Islam is not a Race. So you claiming him a racist is wrong. You need to go back to school and learn what words mean. That, or think before you post incorrect statements.

  26. Black Scholar

    This is Trash with a tiny bit of truth. This means ITS garbage. This IS just another piece of Western propaganda. Our Religions are Superior and thiers' are barbaric. Meanwhile Western nations are SQUATTING in Lybia/Iraq/Bahrain/Quatar and other Muslim countries with bookoo barrels of OIL. Get the fugg outta here.

    How about this; get the fugg out of those countries and stop demonizing them because YOU WANT THEIR OIL/GOLD/INVESTMENTS/HOLDINGS.

    Everybody is tired of THIEVING Americans and Europeans

  27. pwndecaf

    I didn't say worst, you did. I didn't read the rest of your rant.

  28. pwndecaf

    You won't get me to fall back on my position. I agree with much of what you said, but I don't feel sorry for the butchers of Islam.

  29. the silenced masses

    The death toll of innocent victims by the "butchers of Islam" is probably around 10 000x less than that of America's, the champions of "freedom and democracy."

    America's war on terror, has been a war of terror, and the atrocities they have committed in the Middle East, Latin America, Africa and Asia pale in comparison to that of Islam.

    I am not a religious person, what I believe in is truth and justice. You are free to hate who you want, and I support those freedoms. But I would suggest you take the time to learn the truth behind the West's Islamophobic propaganda. Without our hatred of Islam and Muslims, our governments would not be able to wage their illegal imperialistic wars around the world. When I was growing up, the exact same rhetoric was being used about Communists. All they're doing today is substituting Islam for Communism.

    As long as you believe their lies, you are a both pawn and a victim of their oppression

  30. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    YOUR WORDS: "...view is informed by their religion, Islam is worse than most..."

    Ok you said worse not worst. More technical spinning of truth from the likes you bigots.

  31. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    They do it in many Christian countries also. In fact female mutilation is done in many Christian countries as well.

  32. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    ^ Spot on! That is the truth ^ First they plunder the hell out of these people's land. When any one them have a problem with it you demonize their "insurgency" and brutally suppress them. As a final resort they use religion to unify their people around their cause to expel the foreign thieves. And so you capitalize on it and demonize the entire religion. Not talking about ISIS here, but the legitimate resistance before it evolved into ISIS.

    Complete hypocrisy for any westerner to begin talking about how brutal these people are with out addressing the occupation and mafia style extortion and strong arming by western powers to take these peoples oil. Take oil of the equation and the western corps, military and media won't utter anything about these people anymore.

  33. pwndecaf

    I'm a lost cause, so piss off.

  34. jack

    don't worry.. the middle east will run out of oil in 15 years and years before that the west will get all its energy needs from solar and will have no need whatsoever to interact with the people in the "muslim world" or do any sort of business with them. .. when that day comes 5,000 days from today, you will know for sure if your opinion is valid or completely wrong. plus why are you acting like the muslim world would have any need for oil had the west not invented the industries and technology that even needs oil? in other words, what is actually being stolen from the arabs.. also on a side note I'm wondering why slavery was legal in africa until 1981..

  35. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    OK here' s a specific example of the blatant malicious misinformation propelled in the film: when Reza Aslan is labeled with "hypocrisy" by the film maker for claiming that "christian countries" do female genital mutilation. He said "christian countries" to point out that if christian countries and muslim countries practice a certain brutal tradition, then it can't be labeled as a "Muslim Country" issue. It is an African Issue. And this is the flaw in the reporting. It seems the media and other powers take every bad thing that happens in any context that might even remotely involve muslims, and purposely promote it to be a barbarism that is inherent in islam. its F**KIN BULLS*IT You all are idiots or support the agenda to demonize people.

  36. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    Its simple to find any crazy f--ks in any religion that spew out a bunch of raging bulls*it. Lord knows theres plenty of militant crazy christians that you can do a whole documentary on. In fact someone should, since Right wing extremist are responsible for 90% of the terrorist acts in the US and EU. Muslims being only 5%. This is statistical fact as presented by the FBI.

    U.S. right wing extremists more deadly than jihadists - CNN

  37. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    So what about African Christian countries that do FGM. if it seems that countries of all religions in Africa do FGM, then it would be an African cultural tradition and not specific to any one religion. In fact Middle Eastern, Asian, and European muslims countries do not do FGM. So can we use our heads here and see that it is not a f--kin islamic practice. It is an African practice that prob dates back to before islam and Christianity and prob got reappropriated.

  38. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    OK here' s a specific example of the blatant malicious misinformation propelled in the film: when Reza Aslan is labeled with "hypocrisy" by the film maker for claiming that "christian countries" do female genital mutilation. He said "christian countries" to point out that if christian countries and muslim countries practice a certain brutal tradition, then it can't be labeled as a "Muslim Country" issue. It is an African Issue. And this is the flaw in the reporting. It seems the media and other powers take every bad thing that happens in any context that might even remotely involve muslims, and purposely promote it to be a barbarism that is inherent in islam. its Its NONSENSE You all are selectively ignorant or support the agenda to demonize people.

  39. Ann

    Religion is for sheep!! They're s*upid and propaganda or not, the Muslims are clearly out of control and I agree that we have no freaking business in other people's countries. So Muslim's get out of America and go back home, America get the freak out of the Arab countries and all others as well.

  40. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    I agree unfortunately the American's will never get out of the middle east, they are way to oil hungry. There are 100,000's expats working for oil companies there.

  41. Name

    Agreed, but take oil out of the equation and the military will still find a reason for war..... how else will they use up and replenish their inventory?

  42. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    Oh great argument, they don't know what to do with THEIR oil so you should have the right to plunder it. When their oil does run out and your armies head out of the middle east you will forever be seen as the plundering christian barbarians that you have always been through out world history. You hate muslims like you hate everyone else. You people just need to hate people, its in your dna.

  43. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    Im calling him a racist because he is one. And on side not Islam is not race. But I'm sure he and all the right wing tea party nut jobs hate any race that are muslims. (or any race thats not white for that matter) Why do yo think they are always murdering innocent sikhs? Cuz they see how they look and want to kill them.

  44. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    You are guys are the terrorists. Christians and right wing extremist are the real terrorists. That is not my opinion or how i feel those are just clear cut national statistics. Muslims are murdered for being muslims at an alarming rate in the US. That is murder with a religious or anti religious motivation aka terrorism.

    You go in to their country steal their oil, then illegally invade, brutally occupy, flatten their country and destabilize the entire region AND then you terrorize them in your own country. What is wrong with you people? Why do you have so much endless hate ?

  45. Valerie Kelley

    disqus_9fhZYKUgbw You are dead on!! But check my version of your quote (it will make sense).. "You go in to their country (come onto their continent)... steal their oil, (their people, natural resources, land, etc..) then illegally invade, brutally occupy, flatten their country and destabilize the entire region (while destroying indigenous cultural systems that had existed long before Europe figured out how to get out of the cold) AND then you terrorize them in your own country (i.e. Ferguson, Eric Garner, the growing number of "deaths in police custody" that have been found to be modern day lynchings at the hands of police). What is wrong with you people? Why do you have so much endless hate ?

  46. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    Yeah I believe all religious people are stupid. But I believe they have a right to be stupid and practice it. As long as it doesn't involve spewing hate to others. Thats what right wing nut jobs in the US do all day long. So they are bigots.

  47. jack

    i dont hate anyone.. my point is that oil would have no value if a, the west werent buying it and giving the arabs the only prosperity they have ever and will ever know and b, the west didnt develop a world that even needs oil.. what use is oil to arabs 1000 years ago? its useless without the technology the west has developed and shared with the arabs, a process of sharing people like you call "interfering".. plus you say its "their" oil.. no its not.. does a russian own the oil in russia.. no. does a muslim in pakistan have any claim to the oil found in iraq? no.. the powers that be in the muslim world are more than happy to do business with the west. without the west, oil is worthless and will be within a decade anyway

  48. jack

    so the 1400 years of muslim men having sex/raping with their child wives in the muslims world is the fault of 20th century oil exploration and drilling?? when you say that everything the muslims do is because of whites you are actually worshipping whites by giving them full control and power of muslims. egypt today bombed murderous muslims and called for the west to help as saudi arabia called for the west to help when saddam was coming for their oil and resources in 1991.. where were all these fighting arabs when saddam and sons were raping their mothers and sisters and butchering their children for decades? the americans were the good guys in the 1980s helping the afghanis fight the soviet union but somehow magically became the bad guys months later when they saved kuwait and saudi arabia from saddam. the arabs don't know how to do peace, its really that simple.

  49. jack

    in 15 years there will be no oil and in 12 years the world will be powered by solar energy.. only 5000 days until the whites have no reason whatsoever to interact with the arabs and when that day comes i wonder what the arabs will do.. dive for pearls again i guess

  50. the silenced masses

    "muslims still would want sharia law everywhere they live since it's part of their dogma"

    You just proved my point about believing Islamophobic propaganda. Your statement is absolutely false. If you look at the governments of Muslim countries that the US has overthrown, they have all been secular governments that allowed freedom of religion.

    The government the US overthrew in Iran was a secular, socialist government, and the US replaced it with the Shah, a brutal dictator. When the Shah started falling out of favor with the US, America began backing the fundamentalists who would go on to replace the Shah.

    Iraq was secular under Saddam. Libya was secular under Gaddafi. Syria, which the US is currently trying to overthrow is a secular government. All of these countries could have implemented Sharia law, but none of them did. Now they are failed states filled with violent, militant extremists, and that was then intention of the US.

    Meanwhile, the US backs the countries run by brutal dictators and religious fundamentalists, while claiming to be liberating the people in countries who enjoyed far more freedom and a much higher quality of life than in those countries that are US allies.

    Like I said, take the time to learn the truth, and stop being a victim of propaganda

  51. the silenced masses

    Best of luck living with all that hate

  52. pwndecaf

    I abhor violence - I wish your friends would, too.

  53. pwndecaf

    So, let's not talk about crazy Muslims or we'll make someone feel bad.

  54. the silenced masses

    I do actually have a few Muslim friends, and like you, they also abhor violence. Especially because their people have been on the receiving end of such a disproportionate amount of it

  55. jackmax

    It's good to you play the racist card so well. I don't live in the states and we are not killing muslims as you imply however we have been drawn in to this terrorist fear not through the actions of the military but those of these people that want to use their religion as a front to their own self serving ideals. All these Muslims keep telling us that that are from a religion of peace but until they stand up to the extreme element within their religion they are only kidding them selves with yet another lie that religion is brainwashing them with.
    It is never going to improve whilst the Muslim community sits back for what ever reason and allows these acts of terrorism continue without stand up for the common good of all mankind.

  56. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    The racist card exists cuz you guys are known for taking racism to incredible levels of brutality.

    Muslims are taking on the damn extremist, whose popularity and power is directly fueled by your illegal invasions and mass murders of Muslims. These extremists use all your injustices to gain recruits and mobilize.

    Muslims are being massacred on genocidal levels in Iraq and Palestine. They are being massacred by radical extremist barbaric right wing war mongering elements in the US EU And Israel AKA your right wing politicians. But thats not where the equation begins for you though, because hundreds of thousands of iraqis children and thousands and thousands of palestinians massacred regularly does not register in senses. You don't care the slightest bit that these people are being massacred by your governments. You only start to get concerned when a psycho shoots someone in your cafe.

    Let me make something clear for you: There is no danger to you Americans and Europeans. You are going to go on watching your football and celebrity gossip while all these genocides are being committed in your name and with your tax dollars. You are just fine. Its the muslims in these countries that you invade that are paying the ultimate price for your blundering blood thirsty invasions.

    Muslims are dying from these extremist elements in muslim countries and Muslims are dying from Christian extremists in Christian countries. They are the ones dying every where yet you guys can't stop complaing about your insecurity. 60,000 pakistanis have been murdered by afghan terrorists hell ben ton destroying Pakistan for aiding the US in the war on terror. Its the muslims in Iraq, syria and egypt that are fighting and dying from ISIS that was created as a result of the completely unnecessary brutal occupation and destabliization of Iraq. You don't understand the ethnic complexities of these cultures so your stupid leaders in the board rooms can not plan properly for all the back lash to the occupations. Millions of European, Russian and American jews that colonized and occupied Palestine because their god "Promised" them the land that other people are living in. Using religion to ethnically cleanse an entire country. If thats not the height of religious extremism occurring today than I don't know what is. But we should be going after cavemen who don't even know how to harness electricity.

    None of this was happening before the war on terror. Iraq was stable, no alqaeda, Sunnis shias got along, There was never a single suicide bomb in Pakistan before this war on terror. You cause EVERYTHING and then you blame the victim for it. Jews and arabs lived side by side before Israel was forcibly created out of what was Palestine.

    Bottom line if you are a moderate then you control your extremists and get them to stop invading and murdering people on the other side of the world Get them to stop propping up oppressive puppet leaders, and Get the foreign military bases out of Saudi Arabia their holy land AND THEN the moderates in that part of the world will be able to control their extremists since those extremists will not able to mobilize people to their effort. But you won't do a thing, its easier for you to sit on your couch watch the kardashians and fox news and Blame the damn muslims for everything.

  57. jack

    whats your point exactly? the koran says what it says.. it said those things 1100 years before there was a USA. without the USA the arabs would have been sent to the gas chambers by the nazis or wiped out by the soviets. the arabs were happy for the west/USA to save them from saddam in 1991 and have happily been doing business with the west. egypt today called for USA to help them in their war. if an alien army came here tomorrow the world would turn to the USA to save us. i don't like the term but there is a such thing as collateral damage when it comes to war. for you to say that that is reason for the all abhorrent actions that muslim commit in the name of islam is so arrogant and condescending. muslims who follow their religion and believe that apostates should be murdered don't believe that because of some people accidentally killed in a war.

  58. jack

    if your muslims friends don't believe that muslims who leave the faith should be killed then they don't believe the koran is the word of god and aren't real muslims. its really that simple.

  59. Carl Berke

    This was a good film. All religions are "bad" for you. This one is one of the newest, certainly of the middle eastern Abrahamic ones. And, like all newbies, it is the craziest and most zealous. It is dangerous just like Christian fundamentalism or Jewish Zionists or Scientologists or Mormons or any other magical thinking.

  60. The Anonymous Phantom

    Sounds like a lot af pap to me. They are dying because they are belligerent and they make war. I'm a leftist. I hate Fox News. But, religion is the culprit. If religion weren't taught until the age of reason, then we would be living in a totally different world. Google "religious wars" and you will find the fascist god of Abraham is the motivation for the worst of them.

  61. Getreal

    This is sick and disgusting i find,
    If the one who made this documentary has any logic or any rational, he would not dismiss a great religion of almost 2 billion people as a religion that promotes violence or teach terrorism, that fact that most of the people of the West are ignorant about Islam and are only educated though dishonest media and hypocrite leaders, bad examples of a few Muslims doe not make it the fault of Islam been misrepresented>

  62. Getreal

    Those blinds fools who know nothing about Islam exepet from the mouth of Hypocrites who always speak on behalf of Muslims can you not see for once who starts the problem, can you not see for once what your nations are doing around the world, can you not see for once that war is not on your front border you fool, it is only on the Muslims's front borders, R U so blinds to this level that you can not even see who is terrorizing who and who is killing who, You people are live in a different planet man. If you have not learned that Islam is the most civilized religion and that a criminal should be tried as a criminal regardless of his faith, than you have learned nothing.

  63. The Anonymous Phantom

    Actually, there are several technologies that can replace oil, work like petrol in running a car and not pollute-- they have been suppressed. It is not only the oil companies that are suppressing them, but the oil sheiks and princes who have been living lavish lifestyles for the past 90 years. These aristocrats have been keeping their people enslaved with religion for hundreds of years. Killing witches, cutting off heads, public floggings etc. These princes have been supporting terrorists in order to divert their attention away from them and towards other people. If the terrorists win, then the princes win because they have a caliphate. . If the terrorists loose, then the princes win, because they are rid of the terrorists. See how the game is played?

  64. The Anonymous Phantom

    disqus... you're full of nonsense. But, I'm sure you feel good about it.

  65. The Anonymous Phantom

    True plentsje, any philosophy that advocates proselytizing through violence or killing or harming people who don't agree with it should be banned. How can we live with it?

  66. The Anonymous Phantom

    America is an easy country to attack, at first, because it appears restrained.

  67. The Anonymous Phantom

    Buddhism, Hinduism and Wicca have nothing in common with Islam. They are the first to get their heads cut off.

  68. The Anonymous Phantom

    I've been to the East. I've seen a beheading. It's bad news. Had to keep my mouth shut while i was there. Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens and Bill Mhar have made the best points about all of this.

  69. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    Nobody in Pakistan is claiming Iraq's oil. Neither Should the US corporations that send kids there to kill and be killed. The powers that be, that benefit from the oil, like the Saudis are oppressive dictatorships that are only in power due to US military presence. The arabian people don't want them dictators, but the dictators let the US set up military bases in their country (which pisses muslims off even more, Its like having an Iraqi military base at the vatican) the US military makes sure no one disturbs the Saudi dictatorship and in return the Saudi regime gives the US cheap oil.

    NOW, your point is completely invalid cuz Sadam didnt want to sell his oil to the US anymore and look what happen to him and his country and the entire region. the US oil mafia got in and murdered half a million muslims. Russia and China would love to have a fair bid for the oil and they know how to mine and refine it just fine.

  70. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    Thats a really detailed observation Phantom. Thanks for telling us all how you feel about it. No facts needed i guess, just your sorry opinion.

  71. Hinda

    All religions hold contradictions within themselves and all religions have extremists groups. The atrocities, attacks occurring at the moment are not triggered by Islam. It doesn't make sense. It's not the ideology's fault but the people's fault. It is a human problem and not a religious problems. The problem comes from humans. It comes from governments wanting to create a climate of terror to attack a nation. It comes from governments which have created mainstream societies where discrimination and racism have become trivial issues. It comes from governments attacking other nations to take control over their resources. It comes from medias linked to corporations which want to trigger hatred among us, divide us to justify their terrorism. As a result of this, groups of terrorists have emerged, picking and choosing what they want in the Coran, thus justifying their atrocities to also take control. This is a game. It's a battle over power and the problem comes from humans. I am an atheist and still I think your documentary contributes only to stigmatize further a group of people which are Muslims. Stigmatization triggers hatred and hatred triggers violence. Your documentary has only proved that it's a human problem. Good people do good things, bad people do bad things. It's just as simple as that.

  72. Hinda

    This documentary basically says that all Muslims are terrorists or potential terrorists, we need to eliminate Islam. Islam will die one day. Wow. That is one of the most racist, one-sided, selective and intolerant documentary I've even watched. "Muslims" will hate the "Non-Muslim" population on Mars?? This is because of hatred speech like this that violence occurs. Good luck in life.

  73. jackmax

    Being against religion be it Hindu, Islam and any other religion you would like to include does not make some one a racist as it is a religion not a race. if I was to be a racist towards the Muslim faith I would have to dislike Indonesia and its people as it has the largest population of Muslims anywhere in the world. You are a fool at best you could claim that I am a bigot so if you would like to argue with me about what the extremist are doing in the name of your religion please open up your mind ensuring that you get your facts right and bring it on.

    It would seem you have a reading comprehension problem as well as i have already stated that I'm not from the US yet you still accuse me of that. So by all accounts you are not willing to converse with anyone just throw insults and untruths around. But then being a religee I should have expected that rather than an actual conversation on how these things may be solved.
    How have i blamed everything on the muslims?

  74. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    I'm able to understand what racism means thanks for the 3rd grade lesson. Racists is just what white people seem to be. I can make that statement and then talk about religion. See how that works? They apply the same bigoted approach to other religions. I never claimed you lived in the states. But you are obviously from the west, as you have the same tired narrative of westerners that muslims need to do something about terrorism. And clearly showed you how the extremist came to be (cuz of the west) and showed you how muslims are standing up to them, thats why the extremists are massacring them.

    You insinuate that Islam is not a religion of peace. But i showed you with clear facts, not opinions how muslims are the victims of violence from the west. And i showed you how they are standing up to the extremist that is why they are getting slaughtered. Muslims are getting slaughtered not Not christians or westerns. And then in the west muslims are again treated like 2nd class people, constantly demonized, harassed, abused, murdered, and constantly live in fear. So what the hell are you talking about?

    its the Same ol story, westerners commit all these atrocities around the world and blame the victims. Its an old trick you've been using since ever. Black people know it very well.

  75. Anonymous Phantom

    This is a very sensible film and a well thought out essay. There is nothing offensive in it. All it does is raise questions that need to be talked about, hopefully in a logical way.

  76. jackmax

    It would seem that your comment "Racists is just what white people seem to be." is as racist as any comment that I have seen. If you think that only whites are racist then you should learn what racist is first. It is not solely a white issue at all and if you were to actually understand that you will see that you are being more of a racist than I am so far in this conversation. Even you assuming that I'm white shows you to be very racist in your own attitude.

    I'm not insinuating anything I'm stating a fact:

    The Koran contain a least 109 verses that call for Muslims to rage war on non believers for the sake of Islamic rule.

    Here is a couple of examples;

    Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and
    strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this
    world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

    Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore
    strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

    I could give many more than those however they clearly show you that the text is violent and no manipulation of the context of what is written could be taken as a peaceful statement.
    No-one could take that as anything less than your holy book promoting the use of violence against anyone that does not believe in your fairy sky daddy.

    Don't get me wrong it's not just your religion the I have no tolerance for it is all religion so don't think yourself special I'm bagging your religion as I know that all religion is evil and all the follower are not capable of rational thought.

  77. steviecomment

    Can all commentators please check the word "racist". It's being flung about here like a buzz word. I could become Muslim tomorrow, my race is fixed.

  78. DarkSpirit

    That is why this is a terrible documentary. It promotes religious intolerance. You don't have to agree with the preaching of Islam, or Christianity, or Hinduism (India), or Buddhism (Asians), or Judaism (Jews), or Taoism (Chinese), or Shintoism (Japanese), etc. But why do some people feel the need to ridicule, insult, and persecute others who do? If you can't tolerate another religion, then you have the SAME VIEWS AS THE ISIS SUPPORTERS!

    A great civilized society is only possible if they value diversity. Your liver cells look different from your white blood cells but yet they both have a common DNA and they need to work together for you to stay healthy. Can you imagine your white blood cells attacking your liver cells simply because they look different and have different functions?

    In the same way, Muslims need to work together with Christians and Atheists to create a healthy society that is diverse. Their culture and belief systems would be different from yours, but that is no need to keep ridiculing them and their culture until anger flares up and things get out of hand. After all, they are also human beings like us and have the same needs.

    It is not a problem with free speech, it is a problem with how some people feel the need to misuse their freedom to further spread more anger, more hatred, and war in this world! Because some kind of religion exists in every part of the world and an insult/war against all religions is to declare war with the entire rest of the world.

  79. DarkSpirit

    The same can be said of Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, Taoists, Shintoists, or Atheists. Yes, even Atheism is an "ism".

  80. DarkSpirit

    There is extreme element in every religion so are you going to persecute every single believer in the entire world?

    If you are so dumb as to believe that ISIS represents true Islam, because their terrorists say so, therefore you have to believe them. Then you need to get a clue. ISIS is the enemy of true Islam.

  81. DarkSpirit

    Racist or not, you are being stupid as to be tricked by ISIS. ISIS is the enemy of Islam and they have killed more Muslims than non-Muslims combined.

    If you think that ISIS and Muslims have the exact same religion, then you have been made used of by ISIS to spread hatred against their worst enemies, the Muslims.

  82. jack

    you say this is one of the most "racist" documentaries you have watched. you didnt state which race you mean tho. secondly you say it is "one sided". how can it be one sided when it shows footage of muslims saying their beliefs and desires and explains the origins of islam? what exactly is the film "intolerant" of? when the day comes that humans can live on Mars or other planets muslims will have to remain on earth as they are forbidden to travel to Mars in a fatwa that was issued. if muslims wish is to spread islam to all the habitable land area of the planet EARTH then one has to imagine how they will feel about infidels who are living on Mars whose woman are wearing skirts etc. this point also applies to the floating cities in the sea that we will have in a few decades. cant imagine islam needs to be spread to the sea but who knows. the koran seems to be able to apply to anything in an almost magical moving the goal post type of way. if you have any point to debate in the film please do but simply dismissing it as hate speech is lunacy when the only violence called for in the film is spoken by muslims. think first, then type.

  83. Hinda

    Let's call a spade a spade. It's not because this documentary shows a certain view of what "racism" should be that it means everyone else is wrong and should think this way. Discrimination, violence against a group of people based on their race or ideology is racism. Yes, the definition has evolved with the time and it's not new.

  84. jack

    the koran was written by humans who say they knew a guy called muhammed who was able to speak to god. you think those humans were telling the truth but they could easily be lying and you wouldnt know the difference. you have complete faith in them and they are only humans. that trust in them makes no sense and as you think about it you will realise how humans have had thousands of religions and gods and many holy books all of which you find it easy to understand why they were lies and fictions.. this is the only life you will ever live and when you die you go back to the way you were before you were born. it takes real courage to face that truth but billions of people don't have that courage.. they are so afraid that they just like to lie to themselves every minute of every day and believe in magical things.

  85. gmclocks@gmail.com

    Great documentary which shows that militant islam is doomed to failure, not only by adhering to religious beliefs like the subjigation of women, 50% of their talent, but unable to adapt to western thought which will eventually predominate with their youth becoming involved in social media. The immans will become irrelevant.

  86. jack

    if you want to learn about the beliefs of islam the only thing you need to do is read the koran. what is written there is written there. its that simple. islam is very easy to understand. its not some great mystery. muslims who claim to be "good muslims" don't do anything different than good people do in general. what about the film was so "sick and disgusting"? was it dishonest? if it was this is the form for a debate on those points. to open the debate i will ask you "what are the great religions and what makes them great?

  87. jack

    in what way is religious intolerance promoted in the film? so by your logic if you ridicule someones beliefs then you are the same as ISIS.. WOW.. you seem adamant that someone shouldn't ridicule the things another person thinks is true. hmmmm.. what is ridicule in your mind? for instance you stated the documentary is "terrible". thats your opinion and its also ridicule. someone could accuse you of being "intolerant of films the tone of which you don't like or misunderstand or disagree with".what about the "diversity of culture" you call for. by your logic you shouldn't do what you have just done by "ridiculing" the film. i disagree with you on that. do you think people who believe in a flat earth are being "insulted, ridiculed and persecuted" because everyone thinks they are wrong? even if you are a religious person you still think all other religions are WRONG. why don't you state as much. its the belief you hold.

  88. jack

    i don't see muslims protesting ISIS. cartoons yes, a muslim being burned alive in a cage, no

  89. Hinda

    It's not because this documentary shows a certain set definition of what racism should be, that it means that everyone else is wrong. Discrimination or violence against a group of people based on their race or ideology is racism. The definition has evolved with time and it's not news. Nothing is fixed.

  90. jack

    iraq was "stable".. wow.. the butcher of baghdad saddam wasn't slaughering muslims no? whats wrong with a military base in saudi arabia? whats foreign about them? in other words, can saudi arabia hire american soldiers? can saudi arabia buy american built weapons and fighter jets etc? because if you think they can then aren't having those things the same as situation as is there now? the saudis needed the west to save them from saddam 1991 and asked the americans to stay. you said "You don't understand the ethnic complexities of these cultures so your stupid leaders in the board rooms can not plan properly for all the back lash to the occupations". don't they all claim to be muslims?? so sunni and shias are only fighting now because the americans removed saddam from power? talk about a point making no sense.. sunnis murder shia. if a "foreign" bomb accidentally kills an innocent shia then sunnis say "you killed a muslim,how dare you, we wanted to do that". "moderate" muslims cant control their extremists. they never have and never will. as far as israel goes.. jews were there long before there ever was an islam. if you want to play the "lets go back in time game" then you won't win that argument. temple mount is temple mount. the dome of the rock was only built there BECAUSE it is temple mount. if it were a synagogue built on an islamic site you would have a problem but the reverse doesnt annoy you? jews expelled 700,00 arabs from israel in the 1940s but the arab world has expelled more jews than that. plus in the years since, the arabs have started every war with israel. EVERY one!! and thats why you have the occupation. in what way has things enough since 1967 for israel to feel safe pulling out of the west bank? what happened after israel pulled out of gaza? the gazans elect hamas and all they want to do is fight. when i read your comment i honestly think you feel muslims are weak and unable to control themselves in anyway. i will agree with you tho on one point, in 12 years when the west gets all its energy from solar and in 15 years when the middle east runs out of oil the rest of the world should have no interactions with the muslim world at all.. they should leave them to the peace and prosperity and scientific advancement and social equality that only they can give themselves.and i think the muslim world should ban all things that come from the west - computers, airplanes and smartphones etc. and in this world you dream of all the muslims in the smelly horrible boring west can leave and go live in this middle eastern happy paradise where everyone is smiling and laughing and feeling good because the koran is a book.

  91. jack

    whites rarely "stole" blacks in africa. they bought them from black slave owners. slavery was legal in africa until 1981. blacks were masters or slavery and for you to only have a problem with whites being slave owners is racist. blacks owned blacks in the USA and even owned whites in other parts of the new world. on ferguson, if the cop has a gun and the guy is attacking him then why wouldnt the cop assume he is going to try to get the gun from the cop. when there is a gun in a situation its available to both so thats why you have cops firing on "unarmed" people attacking them. don't pretend you wouldnt do the same thing. george zimmerman is a psychopath BUT trayvon attacked him. he was following trayvon but following someone isn't a crime and for all trayvon knew they were going to the same place. cops deal with violent blacks ALL the time. the crime stats are what they are. eric garner was doing something illegal and resisted arrest. would he have died had be been of sound health, probably not. what is the safest way to arrest a huge man who is resisting arrest? at gunpoint? i dunno.. are cops often wrong, yes. are they inadequately trained. i think so. are they going about their day looking for situations where they can just kill black males. i doubt it very much. you'd don't tho.

  92. jack

    "These aristocrats have been keeping their people enslaved with religion for hundreds of years".. cant blame oil on that then.

  93. Hinda

    I have published replies to Steviecomment and Plentsje. I have tried again 2 times. Why aren't they showing?

  94. Hinda

    Steviecomment and Plentsje. Here is my reply:

    very religion has some crazy doctrines because religion is a powerful tool to control minds. Therefore there will always be some people who will want to abuse it. Buddhism also has got its crazy rules although it's said to be a peaceful religion. It's the case for religion, for politics and for everything else. There are extreme groups in everything and everywhere. The problem comes from people, not from religion.
    This documentary is a cliche. Showing loony imams, ignorant Muslims and some crazy extracts of the Coran doesn't mean that Islam is to be banned or that all Muslims are potential barbarians (barbarians are terrorists to me). Our French hymn incite to bloodshed. Does it mean we all go around and kill people? Of course not. We aren't stupid. There are actually smart and educated Muslims who do adore their religion and can differentiate the good from the bad. These people can actually make the difference between figure of speech and reality, between some archaic rules and Islam in our modern times. Why isn't this documentary showing moderate and Muslim intellectuals talking about Islam? Why isn't it showing Muslims and Jews protecting the Oslo Synagogue together? Why isn't it showing Muslim demonstrations against terrorist groups? Why isn't showing the cooperation between Muslim and secular states (Tunisia, Morocco and France for that matter) to fight terrorist groups killing in the name of Islam? Why isn't it showing Muslim (or not) stand-up comedians in France mocking Islam? Why isn't it showing the rise of violence against Muslims following the 7/01/15 attacks? This documentary is a pure attempt of manipulation. If it's trying to sound "journalistic", then it's sound rather unprofessional and irresponsible. It is a patchwork a bit of "this" and lots of "that" resulting in the stigmatization of Islam and Islamophobia. Discrimination or violence against a group of people based on their race or ideology is racism. Don't fool yourself.

  95. jackmax

    I'm against all religions it just at the moment I am expressing my views on islam so don't feel like I'm singling them out.

    The problem is that rather than condemning these terrorist and their action you would rather defend the religion they are hiding behind. Calling me dumb for showing my disgust in any religion that promote violence in the way Islam does through the Koran and the teachings from many of the clergy that are brainwashing these young minds.

    If ISIS is such a enemy of your religion why are you not standing up to there actions rather than condemn the people that do.

  96. jackmax

    Selective reading on your behalf or is it a case that the question I asked at the end of the post you're replying to actually defeats your rant and blinded views.

  97. Achems_Razor

    They are showing now. Please read the community guidelines at bottom of page, thanks.

  98. jack

    all i can gather from your comments is this: "the most important factor in understanding the rise of hitler and the nazis is to focus on the millions of germans who didnt want that".. hmmm.. what did they do to stop it? not enough apparently. you go ahead and keep obsessing on the "good" muslims who don't carry out the actions the religion actually calls for and then when a charlie hebdo incident happens again run around naming all the muslims who didnt do it.. as to your final point: why is it unjust to judge people based on their beliefs/ideology and HOW is that racism? and why isn't the documentary showing the muslim world protesting islamic violence? because there is no footage show. you have no answer except to loudly declare and honest conversation on the subject of islam to be racism that needs to stop. most of the criticism of islam in the film comes from the mouth of muslims, intentionally and unintentionally.

  99. jack

    cool. and religion isn't part of culture and vice versa no?

  100. Open your eyes

    Good documentary. As a Christian, I respect his right to his athiestic worldview and do not take offense over his mockery of Christianity as my faith does not rest on what others think. I do however appreciate his exposing the violent nature of Islam which is not based on a few radicals but comes from its core ideology. As for the racism thing, no one would be calling anyone who challenges Christianity racist. Why is this word being thrown around in such an illogical manner? By that logic (not mine), the Muslims who are to hate Jews, Christians and any other infidels are the racists.

  101. Laurent Franssen

    There is only 24 hours in a day and after making my opinion I actually listen to myself.
    I won't waste time listening to a racist telling me why he's racist.
    Also you should have noticed it's the most frequent opinion in the comments,
    comments in which you spend your time barking to everybody who's saying that this movie is very subjective.

    Either you have a reason to do so, either you'r a racist yourself, either you have nothing to do with you time.

    In all cases, you could do some reading, or some cultural visits, that would upset nice people on the internet less.

  102. Open your eyes

    Hilda, he had a few unfavorable things to say about Christianity and other faiths as well. Your last sentence justifying violence based on hurt feelings just proved the claims of the violent nature of Islamic Ideology portrayed in this documentary to be correct. Thank you and good luck in your life!

  103. DarkSpirit

    I don't think you are condemning the terrorists, I think you are doing precisely what they want you to do.

    I have to hand it to ISIS for being smart. They have 2 enemies, enemy A and enemy B. They attacked enemy A and pin the blame on enemy B so that both enemies would annihilate each other.

    You, are just naive to think that the religion that ISIS terrorists believe in, is the true Islam, simply because the terrorists say so. Just use your brains and think:

    1. if ISIS believes in the same version of Islam then why did they kill many more Muslims than non-Muslims in total?

    2. If ISIS believes in the same version of Islam then why did they behave so differently from most of the other Muslims?

    The issue is that ISIS has FORKED a new version of Islam, which is more violent and intolerant of other religions (similar to your view), than the original true Islam. They have created a different religion from the original Islam. Therefore, they are not actually Muslims even though they like to call themselves that. They are, in fact, the enemies of Islam and Muslims.

  104. DarkSpirit

    Just because the western media didn't report it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Rather than protesting they (e.g. Jordan) are literally fighting a war against ISIS, sacrificing their very lives against a powerful enemy. How is that for a protest?

  105. DarkSpirit

    Yes you shouldn't ridicule/insult a respected person of that someone, if you want to live in peace and harmony with him. Imagine say your mother is someone whom you respect, and I decided to draw a caricature of her to insult her consistently. How would you feel? What this documentary and Charlie Hebdo did, is wrong.

    The Muslims in your community did not attack you first, so why did you need to stir up trouble in the first place?

  106. DarkSpirit

    First you don't have to agree with their teachings. Nobody expects every person in the world to be converted to Islam. Second, I don't think I have seen any Muslim living in Paris stoning someone in public. Why? Because there is a law against it which everyone in society has to keep.

    If you want to go deeper in, every religion has its issues. Christians burning suspected witches on the stake. Even atheists like Craig Hicks (i.e. Chapel Hill shooter) claim to hate all religions like you, so he decided to murder 3 Muslims in cold blood. There are bad elements in every religion, even Atheism.

  107. a_no_n

    he says whilst completly ignoring the fact that judging an entire culture based on the actions of a few stereotypes is the textbook definition of racism.

    People call christians who bash islam racist because more often than not they use racist arguments like the one you just made in order to prove a point that applies equally to their own religion as well.

    More jews have died to christian blades over history than islamic ones...or christian gas as the case might be.

  108. jack

    right, so the definition of racism has changed so much that if you criticise the beliefs someone holds because they are written in a book that makes you a racist.. just wondering, is it also sexist when criticise what someone thinks based on a book or does that word still have its archaic association with gender?

  109. Fabien L'Amour

    I agree, I think faithism would have been more appropriate although it is not yet an accepted word.

  110. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    They are not making any war! In their minds they are fighting off foreign invaders from their land. And they use religion as unification for their rebellious causes. Complete BS to me but the vast majority of moderate muslims dont have as much influence when the US and Europe come armed to the teeth and attack unprovoking arab countries. I agree with you that Abhrahamic relgions have always waged war. But its been far far far more done by christianity than any other civilization on earth.

  111. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    Complete BS Jackmax

    Quran 5:33 says "invaders who wage war against Allah and his messenger sh be killed or EXPELLED from their land"

    What people woudlnt do that to any invading attacking occupying force?? It doesnt say to go out to Europe and start Killing non muslims. You are spreading malicious lies just like you and Fox News always do.

    Quran (8:12) says that Allah will strike upon the non believers for not believing in Allah.

    That is the basis of most religions. That in the after life God will punish you if you dont believe in him. He doesnt command muslims to go out punish them for not believing.

    I challenge you to find one verse in Quran where it says to invade and occupy other people's land and murder them.There isnt any.

    But you know where god commands his people to do that all the time?? IN the bible. In fact he commands his people to Massacre man women child and animals. and take the land. He even throws in constellation gifts, He says you can take all the women as "plunder". Now, assuming these women don't want to be with invading murderers, God commanding his people to gang Rape thousands of women. How f--kin barbaric is Christianity? Makes sense tho since that is what European and American military has done through out history and still to this day.

    1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"

    Deuteronomy 20:10-14
    When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.

    The Bible is the most violent terrorism manual in the history of man.

  112. steviecomment

    My belief is that you and some other commentators on here are not all that bright. Please respect my beliefs, or i will get very angry and possibly violent.

  113. jack

    we don't all agree on what is "insulting" and "ridicule".i personally would struggle to care if someone drew pictures of my mother. even if they said "this is your mother" maybe they are lying to me. i don't let other people control my emotions like muslim do. either way i don't care what people who draw things think of me and they don't affect my emotions. my feelings aren't easily hurt. maybe someone draws someone and they are not good at drawing. is that an "insult" if you happen to not like the picture? there is no rule in the koran that says that people cant draw muhammed and shia muslims have often depicted him. the reasons muslims are not allowed draw living things is because they might worship them. to a muslim drawing a bird, muhammed or a whale are all the same thing. well that is not said in the koran. that is in the hadith and you know the hadith was written by humans. you don't know your own religion. but since you and muslims believe that they should never have their feelings hurt then why don't we all ask the muslims of the world to present a big long list of all the things that upsets them and "offends" them and we can obey that list. and then we will present a big long list of things that offend us and annoy us and we will give that to muslims and they can obey that.. is that the world you want? and just to point out the flaws in your own thinking and how you have ideas in your head that were given to you by someone else that you have never questioned here s a question.. what does the word respect mean? you use it so what does it mean? do you know? try explaining it then without googling its definition. also you say you have a problem with "ridicule".. what is ridicule? is it something that makes people laugh? lets say i draw you exactly as you look and everyone laughs, is that "ridicule"? if the people in the west decide that drawing mushrooms is a way to say they think islam is stupid are you then gonna decide we cant draw mushrooms because we have decided mushrooms mean "islam is stupid"? all you want as a muslims is to feel important but guess what, people who aren't muslims don't believe that muhammed was a prophet. he was either a man who made up a story or the people who actually wrote the koran made up muhammed. the admiration you expect non muslims to have for muhammed they cant have because they don't believe in him. thats what it means to be a non muslims. you find that "offensive" but thats how they think. people are allowed to have their own thoughts you know and in the west people are allowed to express those thoughts. muslims who move to and live in the west are hilarious. they act like the west is so bad compared to the perfect middle east yet they don't want to live in the middle east. they want to live in the west. will i tell you whats really wrong with muslims in the west? get ready to read the cold hard facts.. are you ready? non whites don't fit in in white countries. they feel completely inferior to whites in every way and thats why they feel so uptight because deep down inside they actually worship white people. at least blacks can be good at sports and music and they can at least feel like the whites think they are little bit cool. but the asians cant fit it. some asians study hard and become doctors and stuff like that but they still don't really fit in. they see white women and feel so jealous. so they cant fit in, they cant be cool, they cant be good at music or sports, they cant be funny, they cant be beautiful, they cant get beautiful white women because they lack confidence and are mostly boring and thats why they turn to the only think they have - islam. and islam tells them that the whites are inferior to the muslims. and that all the infidels women actually belong to the muslim. so all a muslim has to do is be muslim and when he dies he gets all those white females in "paradise". theres some truth for you right there and i know you agree with it 100%. the thing muslim men need to do is stop being obsessed with vaginas especially white womens ones and actually develop a personality and then they will actually be interesting to talk to and know. and if muslim males lived like that then they wouldnt care about the koran. muslim men are actually the most pussy whipped men there are, they are pussy whipped mentally. have a nice long think about what i have said and then reply and i look forward to reading that reply.

  114. the silenced masses

    Communism was never the global threat that the US made it out to be, and considering the state of affairs in western countries today, we can hardly throw stones at the communist system. Our capitalist societies are being militarized, our rights taken away, our quality of life is being destroyed and our media is nothing but a mouthpiece for state propaganda. That pretty much sounds like life in the USSR.

    And actually, the US has already said **** you to the world and is in the process of tying to take it over. I'm sure you know that the entire war on terror was nothing but a cover to gain control over middle eastern oil, preventing Russia and China from gaining access to the region.

    They are doing the same thing in eastern Europe with their take over of Ukraine, in an attempt to isolate Russia. They've also started their "pivot to Asia" in an attempt to box China in.

    But this will only end in one of two ways. Either the US will bankrupt itself as in goes deeper into debt trying to sustain its bloated war machine. Or they will push Russia and China too far and the planet will be destroyed in a nuclear holocaust

  115. the silenced masses

    It's even simpler than that. You don't know what your talking about and are merely repeating ridiculous propaganda you read online or heard on Fox news. If all Christians lived according to the literal word of the bible, we would be living in an extremely violent and barbaric word. That's something people like to ignore, when they quote things out of context from the Koran

  116. the silenced masses

    All you're doing is repeating the most ridiculous propaganda. It's obvious you've learned everything you know about the world from television.

    There's a very good reason why television is referred to as "the idiot box". Turn off your TV, pick up a book and try and free your mind from the years of propaganda and misinformation that are polluting your mind.

  117. Hinda

    Jack, you read the Coran? It's very impressive.
    My guess is that you either read none of it or you simply read it the way a terrorist would.

  118. Hinda

    Hi Jackmax,

    All the attacks that have been carried out by ISIS, Daech, Boko Haram or any terrorist groups are to be condemned without any doubt. All Muslims of the western world have publicly condemned these acts. Muslims have been demonstrating on the streets against terrorism perpetrated in the name of Islam. In Morocco/Tunisia, the King/President have established schools in cooperation with France so they can educate the current and future imams from central and western Africa. In addition, ISIS is a problem in which all of us should be fighting. It shouldn't be made a Muslim problem because "United we stand".

    What disturbs me the most in this video is that ignorant, lunatics and brainwashed Muslims are being portrayed as the face of Islam. While we have the freedom to express everything and anything, let's be responsible here. Some people watch this kind of videos and get more convinced that the problem of terrorism lies in Islam. The what do those people do? They go on and shoot innocent people because they are Muslims. In France we've had over 150 anti-Muslims/racist violent acts. The roots of the problem lie in terrorism itself caused by western terrorism. It's a vicious circle and we are the victims/puppets caught in the middle. Terrorists in the world are dividing us so they can justify further terrorism. And it's working.

    I don't believe in religions but I do believe in respect and tolerance. The freedom of speech doesn't mean you can gratuitously insult people who also have the right to practice their religion (this is also one of the fundamental rights). This world is so diversified. Countries are multicultural. People have different beliefs, faiths, etc. Therefore the only way to function properly is by respecting one another and not crossing the line. In each nation (at least in the western world), we all have made a social pact under which we all accepted to alienate ourselves a little in order to receive protection. That is the base of freedom in a society. Freedom of speech is the same. Of course everyone should express their views but why is there a need to insult others? In order to live in harmony with one another, we need compromise. It's the same as in a relationships.

    Also I don't think you realize how this terrorism is affecting the Muslim community. How do you think they feel when they see a bunch of loony barbarians chopping heads of in the name of a religion they're devoting their lives to? How do you think they feel constantly hearing that the roots of such horrific acts are Islam which is for them a religion of love? How do you think they feel when they're being stigmatized in western societies as being "terrorists" just because they are Muslims?

  119. Carl Berke

    There is no point is talking about racism. This is not about any race. The crazy Muslim Imam drilling his congregation is a perfect example. The audience is composed of various races. And they are equally fanatic and irrational. No, this is a discussion about anti intellectualism, hatred of the other and religious exceptionalism. All of which is in this film. Are you being silly here? Xians, Muslims and other magical thinkers cannot work with others within those magical realms. So how will they work with each other? They can't and won't. So, here is what you do. Obey the Constitution of the US and leave others alone!

  120. jack

    i don't care what you draw but if i did would you obey me when i tell you not to draw those things because i find it annoys me? you believe in the word "respect".. why don't you tell us what the word means without googling it? you have a problem with "ridicule" because it makes people laugh. if i drew you exactly as you look and it made people laugh would you call that "ridicule"? in what way is this film like what charlie hebdo do? charlie hebdo is a satirical magazine. this film is just facts being stated. there is no satire in this film. do you actually have a point to make? since you want the west to be obedient to muslims why don't muslims write down a big long list of all the things that upset them and the west will never do those things. then the west will write down a big long list of all the things that annoys them and muslims won't do those things.. is that what you want? "stir up trouble"? thats exactly it, muslims do cause trouble as a reaction to cartoons.

  121. jackmax

    What part of my reply to you is complete BS?

    You are no better than the terrorist you are defending by your dishonesty in whats written in your holy book the Koran.
    The only bullsh*t here is coming from all you religee nuts that don't like the truth about your religion and the ill effect it has had on many young minds that believe that what is being taught is what they must do in the name of Allah.

    It appears that you don't like the truth as it exposes your religion for the backward outdated piece of crap it is.
    Both you book and the christian book are both full of lies and the clergy the preach these lies do not care about the truth and are only interested in lining there on pockets.

  122. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    The part that is a BS is what you quoted from the Quran (which I don't believe in, in any way) you and genocidal white people soin everything about Muslims and portray it as demonic as possible. But I showed the meaning of the verses you quoted and it's not as barbaric as you make out to be, in fact it makes sense. Unlike the bible (which I also don't believe in) where God commands his people to commit the most heinous acts known to man. Why kind of God is that? What kind of religion is that?

    Instead of just accusing me of being dishonest, show how I'm being dishonest with facts and evidence like I have.

    I don't believe in religion and I'm not a Muslim nor would I ever defend terrorist, but what you people are doing to Muslims is outrageous you should be ashamed of yourselves. It's disgusting.

  123. jackmax

    It seems you would rather defend your terrorist friend than admit that your religion has fallen well short of being that peaceful religion you and the other moderates would like us non believers to think.

    It never ceases to amaze me that rather than face the issues you would rather point out that the other have done it so why condemn us.
    You are right in the fact that all religions have an evil side to them, but this thread is concerned with your religions evil element. If you want to argue against the other religions go and watch there docos and knock your self out bashing them, you will find I've already been there and told them what I think of their particular brand of BS.

  124. pwndecaf

    AFAIK, my cells don't think, they just do. Sounds like most religions.

  125. jackmax

    It amazes me that you can defend such writings the way that you have. You condemn christians in their beliefs and what is written in their book of lies, but don't except that the Koran has the same lies contained in it.
    At least I can see the problem that us non believer are facing with all religion unlike yourself that appears to have very little knowledge of what is wrong with the context of the Koran.
    How can anyone misunderstand this'

    Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore
    strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

  126. pwndecaf

    For which mostly indiscriminate executions were carried out by Muslims. For a cartoon. Strange sense of "justice" besides being very illegal.

    Most civilized people allow the courts to decide if wrong has occurred and what the penalty is. These groups think vigilante justice is the way to go. WRONG!

  127. jackmax

    I'm an anti- theist and the idea that we can obtain peace through some fairy sky daddy is absurd and the problem is that so many fools believe their own version of this fairy tale. The sooner all religees realise that they don't have the mandate to preach to others because their book tells them to the better life for all will be.
    logic is not the strongest asset religees have they all believe in some imaginary friend that will solve all their problems

  128. pwndecaf

    Count the number of groups you named. You got a beef with everyone, apparently.

  129. pwndecaf

    It seems he doesn't want to do as the title of the doc suggests - We Need to Talk About Islam.

  130. pwndecaf

    No hate from you - clearly.

    I don't believe any of your claims that you are not Muslim and just speaking for what is right. You have a hateful agenda.

    Everyone is stupid and bigoted except you.

  131. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    I'm not defending anything I'm say that that Quran verse means : those who believe are good and those that don't God will tortue you in hell. Which what every religion says. God is not commanding Muslims to go and invade and murder non Muslims. But the God in the bible does command to do just this and he commands to gang rape women and girls as plunder.

  132. DarkSpirit

    It has already been tried in court and the cartoonist won because there is no law against insulting someone else. Therefore, if I don't like you, I am free to insult your parents and your forefathers or anybody you respect, as much as I want.

    Would that make people angry? Probably. So even though I have the freedom to offend anyone, that doesn't mean I should use that lightly.

  133. DarkSpirit

    Do you really think the cartoonist was attempting to draw Mohammad as accurately as possible? Of course he wasn't. It was an attempt to annoy and insult Muslims. Why? Possibly because he thinks that by being anti-Muslims, he is being anti-ISIS. That is the mistake he made.

    If I am ISIS, rather than attacking a superior nation directly and probably lose, I would influence the feeble-minded people in that nation into doing my dirty work for me and attack their own society from the inside out. Instead of being called a radical fundamentalist, ISIS would prefer to destroy mainstream Islam so that the ISIS version of Islam becomes the mainstream instead.

    To do that they have to force the other 1.6 billion Muslims to join their ranks or be attacked by their own countrymen in western nations and in other parts of the civilized world. This strategy of theirs is already working very well, considering the number of people in Europe, the US, and Australia who are willing to support them to terrorize the 1.6 billion Muslims from their country. Doing the work of ISIS terrorists for them.

  134. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    you think Im a muslim after I called muslims stupid and dumb? AN how there book is complete bs? I think islam is BS but its much less violent than Christianity or Judiasm and that I'm just basing off of present warfare and aggression. And as for the past nothing can compare to Christianity's atrocities and blood thirsty violence. And as for the books they are both man made BS. BUT the bible is sooooo incredibly barbaric and full of terrorism commanded God. My greatest point how can any christian, jew, white person, eurpeans constantly demonize the muslim victims you abuse in their countries and in yur own??? You kill them in their countries and then you kill them in yours Yet you can't stop talking about how violent THEY are??? its awoke you're a joke.

  135. jack

    no one knows what muhammed looks like so any drawing of him won't be accurate. do you think the charlie hebdo drawing is mocking him? how do you know muhammed didnt look exactly like that? you don't.plus its a CARTOON. how realistic can it be. that is also their style of drawing. in the west we have the freedom to do things that "annoy" people. muslims think if they feel annoy its a big deal but thats how children react. adults feel annoyed about things all the time but they get over it. plus its not like muhammed or islam is even that important to us.. charlie hebdo did 3 muhammed covers i know of out of thousands of issues.islam isn't that funny or interesting. its just one of many religions that talk about the same boring nonsensical stuff but muslims take their religion seriously whereas other people realise that religion is nonsense from thousands of years ago.lots of muslims feel this way too but they don't admit it because of the penalty for leaving islam - death by means of removing the body from the head. muslims consider ANY drawing of muhammed or jesus no matter how photorealistic as blasphemy and are enraged by it. westerners brain just don't understand this. again ill point out nowhere in the koran is drawing muhammed forbidden and nowhere does it talk about punishment for blasphemy. ISIS is a rape and murder cult. their members cant seduce women in real life so this is what you get. when muslims males imagine paradise they picture lots of white women to have sex with. when these guys are captured they always find lots of porn on their computers. my opinion is this. there are two types of societies that are controlled by women. far left radical feminist societies and far right religious societies where everything a man does he does because of the control women have over his mind. islamic societies are on one end of the gynocentric scale. but you didnt answer my question.. why don't we all ask muslims for a big long list of things things that annoys them and makes them feel 'weely angwee" and then the west can spend all their days walking around making sure to not upset the emotions of muslims who are after all completely certain they aren't wasting their time on their knees talking to their hands in prayer that their is a god listening them.

  136. jackmax

    Ah you may take it with the meaning us you present them but if you take another meaning you could very easily taken in the way that it has been written...

  137. jackmax

    I could point out the horror that's in the bible, however at this present time I'm lucky enough to currently attacking another book of "bullsh*t"

    From what I've read from all there stories should be exposed for the lies and evil acts against humanity and it doesn't matter what sky daddy they lie about.

  138. DarkSpirit

    That is because the PEOPLE there wants it that way. I can't understand why Americans and Europeans always want to force their own law down the throats of other sovereign countries. If countries like Singapore doesn't allow ordinary citizens to carry firearms, is the NRA going to complain?

    Also do you know what sharia law is? Do you also know that many US allied Muslim countries also have sharia laws in their legal systems? These allied Muslim countries are also fighting ISIS because ISIS is attacking mainstream Islam. If the US is against sharia law then it is setting itself up to be against their Muslim allies too and ISIS would have won a great victory creating a wedge between the US and 1.6 billion Muslims around the world.

    ISIS doesn't obey the sharia, they just call themselves Muslims and say that they do in order to fool the rest of the world that they are main stream Muslims. They are NOT! Unless sharia laws encourage killing fellow Muslims.

    But their plan is to fool as many of the naive people in western countries as possible into thinking that they (ISIS) are mainstream Islam. Thus, pinning the blame for all their horrific acts on all Muslims and creating a wedge between mainstream Muslims and western societies. This would drastically increase ISIS power and convert western allied Muslim countries into enemies that western nations would now have to deal with. If you can't even see through this ruse then I really feel sorry for you.

  139. DarkSpirit

    How is killing fellow Muslims and non-Muslims advancing the mainstream version of Islam? If you truly believe that then every Muslim would be taking a gun and killing everyone right now.

  140. DarkSpirit

    I never claim that I know what Mohammad looks like, but I am sure that he doesn't look exactly like a cartoon character. So if the cartoonist doesn't know what Mohammad looks like either, why even draw him just to offend Muslims?

    You have no right to try to change every single foreign culture into your own. That is NOT respecting diversity.

    It is for the good of society that everyone maintains their differences so as to offer unique perspective. We are not trying to build a society where everyone is a borg.

  141. whats up

    its a 7th century ideology with 21st century weapon technology .....
    its purpose is to dominate others no matter weather other faith is in favour of them or against them ..........

    it is Not evolved like other religions with time ........as much it resist to change its become more dangerous and vulnerable to there modern people as well as for others ....it must be questioned ......

  142. jack

    you are completely free to try to "hurt my feelings" by saying things about my mother or father to great great grand uncle and i won't care.i would struggle to care what you think or say or draw. the cartoonists won in court and then some muslims murder them and other people who had nothing to do with the cartoons. so i guess it wasn't even about the cartoons. again i stress that drawing muhammed in a way intended to mock him is NOT in the koran. jesus is a prophet in islam and is often draw or depicted in the west. do you think that drawings of jesus are "insulting islam" and if not why not?

  143. jack

    he wasn't drawn to "offend muslims". they draw EVERYONE!!! what you want is for muslims and arabs to be EXCLUDED from things. what is wrong with you seriously. next it will be "muslims are not be shown in tv shows". i don't respect diversity. why should i respect "diversity"? some cultures are better than other ones and i want to live in the best culture. and as i keep saying to you and you just keep ignoring it, it is not forbidden in the koran to draw muhammed. the koran also doesnt say blasphemy should be punished. you believe the koran to be the word of god yet you don't follow it.. when you follow the hadith like it is the word of god although you know humans wrote it you are actually worshiping whoever wrote the hadith who was a human. this is the biggest sin in islam and you are committing it

  144. DarkSpirit

    That passage has nothing to do with commanding all Muslims to pick up arms and killing non-Muslims. Even the Bible has similar quotes regarding unbelievers!

    If you think that driving a wedge between western governments and societies and all 1.6 billion Muslims around the world is the right thing to do then western nations have already lost that war with ISIS. Why? Because some of those Muslims whom you despise have intimate knowledge of advanced weapon systems, including nuclear weapons. They would all have to go to ISIS's side and this war would turn into a thermo-nuclear nightmare. Is that really what you want?

    Furthermore, the funding in terms of financial, military hardware, and manpower from these previously allied Muslim nations would stop and work against western countries instead. Is that really what you want?

  145. DarkSpirit

    Being legal doesn't necessarily imply being smart or even being moral. Unfortunately, for societies, there is no law against stupidity.

  146. DarkSpirit

    There is no more moderate Muslims if you continue to attack Islam as much as western societies are doing now. Western societies would force them into the waiting arms of ISIS and the world now have to deal with a nuclear capable ISIS with long range missiles.

    China, Russia, India, Pakistan, and Iran has a huge Muslim population. If you attack their religion, the Muslims may rise up against western countries with their weapons and nuclear stockpile.

    Good luck!

  147. DarkSpirit

    That is where you are wrong. Most moderate Muslims have the choice to live anywhere in the world because they are educated, richer, and more qualified. Unfortunately western societies are forcing them out by attacking them and their religion nowadays.

  148. pwndecaf

    Search for and watch Obsession - Radical Islam's War Against the West and then come back and tell me all about it.

  149. jack

    i agree with you on that 100%.

  150. jack

    lmao.. "they want it that way".. when the west says we want to live in society that can draw cartoons with fear of being murdered you disagree.

  151. jack

    moderate muslims are only people who are born into to islam and pray because they think theyll get some reward but for the most part they don't really care about the religion. they only follow it because they haven't actually thought it through or they are afraid to say they don't believe it because of fear of being murdered for apostasy. my point is that moderate muslims just aren't that invested in or care about islam enough to be willing to die for it fighting the radical violent muslims or even try to argue with the radical non violent muslims.

  152. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    I told you already you took the verse from non muslim sources which maliciously interpret the Quran to be as violent as possible. Go to a Muslim run website that actuall understands Arabic and you'll see the translation is different. It's as I said "God will punish whoever rejects him" that is the basis I of all religions. For last time IT DOES NOT SAY TO GO TO NON MUSLIM COUNTRUES AND STRTD MASSACRING PEOPLE as the bible does. Get it though you genocidal racist barbaric blood thirsty terrorist brain. Stop reading the bible it is a terrorist manual.

    Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"

    Deuteronomy 20:10-14
    When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.

  153. jack

    i definitely read the bit about how the sun disappears into a puddle of water at night time.. i was very impressed.

  154. jackmax

    So your saying the passages I quoted aren't from the Koran? If so it seems that you have lost your argument as I took them from it even quoted the actual reference such as Quran (8-12)

    It seems that you have a selective read problem considering that I have already stated that I think all religion is the root of all evil.

    All you have done by defending one outdated belief system by show the flaws in another outdated belief system only confirms my point about all religions.
    Your argument that this one book of lies is worse than the other is like saying two wrong make it right, which we all know is absurd.

    You have stated that I don't understand the meaning of what is written, but if you have to try and find a creative way to manipulate the meaning of what is actually written then the problem is your understanding of language and words.

    If someone writes "I want you to kill" can in no way mean "will you cuddle everyone you meet"
    But that is what you are trying to convince us in your application of understanding of what is written.

  155. DarkSpirit

    Not necessarily. They are brought up and nurtured in a Muslim environment and if you attack Muslims in general and their religion, it would still be a personal attack against them including their families, their culture, and their heritage.

  156. DarkSpirit

    Sure the west is allowed by their laws to draw cartoons the way that they want to. Their courts have already ruled that.

    The west is also free to launch ICBMs against Muslim populated areas around the world in China, Iran, India, South-East Asia, etc. So why don't they do that if they hate Muslims so much?

    Please ask your governments to just declare a war against Islam and all Muslims around the world and everyone would have a happier better world after a nuclear holocaust right? Because that is certainly one freedom option you and your country can take.

  157. DarkSpirit

    I really don't think their scientists and engineers would be persecuted in the east when they return home. People there would welcome them with open arms, ISIS or not. They welcome the knowledge and expertise they bring, be it knowledge to build nuclear weapons or advanced weapons engineering.

    I think people in Europe and the US are impacted by ISIS acts and propaganda so much that they are starting to act in a self-defeatist manner. At some point, they have to decide if they are so impacted that they want to turn against their Muslim allies that have been supporting them all this time in their war against ISIS or if they should continue to enjoy the support that they get from their Muslim allies using their resources against ISIS.

    If they decide to turn against their Muslim allies then they have already lost the war against ISIS. Why is that? Good luck trying to bomb ISIS territories by avoiding middle eastern air spaces that have been denied to your air crafts. Good luck moving your troops across now hostile countries in the middle-east.

  158. pwndecaf

    Would the drawing have "stink lines" on it?

    Ooh, I'd have to kill somebody for putting stink lines on a picture of my mother.

  159. DarkSpirit

    To Muslims, Mohammad is probably a close brother. Insulting him and insulting their religion is akin to insulting them directly.

  160. disqus_9fhZYKUgbw

    No dude, What im saying is you are being creative in interpreting quranic verses to make them seem as barbaric as possible. MY POINT is That it takes a lot less creativity (or none) to interpret the Bible to be the most barbaric terrorist manual ever to disgrace humanity. Thats all.

    You and Fox news can continue your demonization for everything that isnt WASP.

    Im from New York and I have a much more real understanding of the world. You country, redneck, tea party, cousin f--king, gun worshipping, bible thumping, racist, backward inbreds can go kill yourselves with the guns you love. And you all should move to Texas and start your secession from the union movement cuz the country (and the world) is not moving in your genocidal direction.

  161. Enzu

    Why are you trying to defend Islam? Sure, the US and/or Christianity and Judaism have murdered and caused a lot of more terrorist attacks than the muslims, but this docu is about ISLAM, and I agree with it 100%. F*ck all religions. They´re a virus on humanity!

  162. jack

    so what you are saying is that if you "insult" a muslim directly he/she will take that as being even worse than drawing muhammed which muslims consider an action that requires violence in retaliation. so since we know anyone can be a muslim guess drawing anyone of any race can be interpreted as "offensive to islam. also by your logic even if you draw an non muslim arab then that too is "insulting" islam.. the things you say make no sense I'm afraid.

  163. DarkSpirit

    Being a "true" Muslim, whatever that means, is a lot easier if you were already brought up in that same environment for years as a child.

    No it would not be that difficult for them to adapt to at all if they needed to. Of course their country may not have some of the physical luxuries in the west but if they are forced to leave, they can adapt back to their own country.

  164. DarkSpirit

    What I am saying is that insulting Mohammad is like you are insulting a close brother or father. If Europeans/Americans continue to do that, then their Muslim allies may one day, choose to abandon their cause to attack ISIS and turn against them.

    Western nations would have no more access to middle east air space to fly and no more access to their land to build their bases. Good luck trying to bomb ISIS while fighting your previous Muslim allies at the same time.

    The problem with Europeans and Americans is that they were duped by ISIS sympathizers among their community that ISIS epitomizes Islam. This is what ISIS wants you to think so that they can be perceived as mainstream Islam. In reality, they are the enemy of mainstream Islam.

    ISIS terrorists are the problems, not mainstream Islam or Mohammad, so stop targeting the peaceful Muslims living among you, just because they are easier preys than ISIS terrorists themselves.

  165. DarkSpirit

    With Islam it is not just a religion, the religion is interwoven with their culture. You can't easily separate them apart. The clothes that they wear for example, is not just a part of their culture, it is also a part of their religion.

    If you are brought up in that culture with Islam, then it becomes part of you and insulting Mohammad becomes an insult to your entire culture, your families, your relatives, your forefathers, and your heritage.

  166. jack

    I've already explained to that non muslims by definition think muhammed is either a character that was invented or muhammed is a liar. by being a non muslim, non muslims are "insulting" muhammed. why you think a cartoon is worse i don't know. muslims who turn to violence over cartoons were never allies in the first place. why are you so obsessed with ISIS? they are one of many violent islamic groups. give me examples of other things that "insult" islam since that its so important that westerners make sure to make it their number one priority to not "offend" these muslims who come to live in the west although they really wish they could stay in their pakistani or middle eastern heaven were islam is all they see.. as i keep saying too, the koran doesnt forbid drawing muhammed nor does it say that blasphemy or mockery should be punished. you seem to think its ok that muslims make up rules that arent in the koran

  167. Fabien L'Amour

    The Abrahamic religions god(s) really needs to publish more frequent updates to his 'words of god' books, a lot has changed in the past centuries. It no longer is very popular to watch decapitations, stonings and mutilations in most of the world.

    It would also help quite a bit if the next 'words of god' book was very clear that violence against other human beings is not a way to be admitted to heaven. It's very odd to me that a benevolent omnipotent god didn't make his message clear enough so that people don't use weapons in his name.

    Ooops, nevermind the above, I just remembered the words in these books came from men with an agenda and there is no benevolent omnipotent god as he wouldn't let his message be twisted in such a way. I can't quite understand how believers think a benevolent god would watch ISIS or any other religious terrorist group and do nothing.

  168. jackmax

    Ok mate if you would like to break down the verses I've quoted by all mean go right ahead by do it properly is in ensure you grab a dictionary to ensure you understand the meaning of the words that have been written. If you want the true meaning of whats written then that is the most correct way of understanding of the context in it complete form.

    You can attack the messager all you like but that will not change the message. You throw insults at me because you have lost your argument on so many levels that the only thing you have left is the insults. If you argument was sound you would be able to present valid and factual points that we could debate and possibly learn the different points of view and both end up with a better understanding of the problems we all face.

    So Due to the fact that you live in New York you have a greater knowledge of the issues of the world. Your place of residents has nothing to do with you intelligence or understanding of the problems that the world in facing right now.
    If fact if we were to look at your city and investigate the problems that are happening there one could say that you should be concerned with whats going on there and how you New Yorkers treat each other. How many homeless have you helped with in your city in the last week? Ah that's right your a New Yorker that's not your problem that at problem for some one else. It may pay for you to stop throwing stones at others whilst your own backyard is in such a mess.

    I don't live in the States and considering I have informed you of this a couple of times now it seems that you are blinded by your own importance rather than the actual context of the discussion which is a real shame considering the importance of the subject

    As I've stated at best you could claim that I'm a bigot. But that is still better that what you have portrayed yourself as. and that is a Racist bigoted dumb c*nt that has his head that far up his own ass that all he can hear and say is sh*t.

  169. TruthStandsClear

    Apostasy was considered treasonous way back during the time the Quran was revealed.
    Why? Because when you have a leader (prophet) in front of you, calling you to follow him and show your loyalty to him, you are giving your word of honor - your pledge of allegiance. Then a few years later when you "change your mind", it's clear that the original "pledge" was false, that those making the fake pledges were hypocrites, working as spies so they could cause the injuries, torture, and DEATHS of others who were loyal to the leader (prophet).

    The punishment for treason in most countries is death.

    It had nothing to do with people choosing to follow another religion as they may in modern times because "there is no compulsion in religion" - but it has everything to do with someone giving a false oath in order to spy.

    If someone is born into a Muslim family, they never "chose" to follow the religion of Islam or to follow the prophet. Therefore, if they choose another religion, there is no reason to believe they are hypocrites or that they falsely followed Islam in order to main and kill other Muslims.

  170. EschewObfuscation

    Bigoted & prejudicial would be more accurate than "racist."

    As to the idea that it's ok because they talked to some muslims, that is wholly insufficient.

    If we want to learn about Christianity, we would learn from reputable, credible theologians, people with degrese in divinity, a Bible scholar or the like, or at least someone that many knowledgable Christians would agree have a good understand of Christianity.

    We wouldn't take random Christians (eg some neo-Nazis, or maybe some uneducated folks, or even a random priest or minister) and take whatever they say as the truth of their religion.

  171. walterbyrd

    > I can't quite understand how believers think a benevolent god would watch ISIS or any other religious terrorist group and do nothing.

    Um, are we talking about the same god that drowned nearly all of humanity (even infants) in a great flood?

    The god who allowed his own son to be crucified?

    The god who commanded the killing of witches? And a sentence of being stoned to death working on Sunday?

    The god who created hell, and decided that some people would burn forever in a lake of fire for reasons that are not exactly clear?

    The god of the bible is far from benevolent?

  172. TruthStandsClear

    If you want to know the truth of Islam, seek out qualified scholars, not some wild Muslims seeking media attention!

    YUSUF ESTES is a reputable scholar who, as a former devoted preacher, understands the Bible and the Quran. He has videos on Youtube, and several websites.

    1. Homosexuality. The act is one forbidden by God, in the Torah, the BIble, and Quran. But it's no one else's business, and everyone has freedom choose whether to follow the command of God or not.

    2. Apostasy. The Quran says there is no compulsion in religion. If someone is a spy, a traitor, and says they are loyal to someone but instead gets information to KILL others... in most countries today, the penalty is death.

    3. Adultery. God does not permit adultery. However, in order for there to be a punishment in this human world, there must be 4 eyewitness to the act of penetration. That is all but impossible.

    If you see what alleged muslim govts do, that's another story. Saudi Arabia is thought to be a "muslim country" following sharia (islamic law) but they do not follow Islam or the Quran. Maybe they follow some things, but mostly they just ignore what they choose & follow their own evil cultural practices - some of which are in violation of Islamic law.

    There is no country in the world right now that follows Islam. (No matter what they allege)

  173. walterbyrd

    > he says whilst completly ignoring the fact that judging an entire culture based on the actions of a few stereotypes is the textbook definition of racism.

    No. Muslims are no more a race than Catholics are a race.

    Yes it is fair to judge an ideology according to what that ideology believes in. For example, if you are a member of NAMBLA, you are stating that you are okay with child molestation. If you are Muslim, then you are stating that you are okay with killing infidels to promote Islam - Mohammad certainly did that.

  174. walterbyrd

    > The problem comes from people, not from religion.

    Since religion comes from people, that has to be true.

    > This documentary is a cliche. Showing loony imams, ignorant Muslims

    Was the prophet Mohammad a cliche? Was he loony or ignorant? Because Mohammad, personally, killed, raped, and looted, for the cause of Islam. Mohammad absolutely demanded that his followers do the same.

  175. walterbyrd

    > Discrimination or violence against a group of people based on their race or ideology is racism.

    No. If I criticize the ideology of NAMBLA, that is not "racist."

  176. walterbyrd

    > Discrimination, violence against a group of people based on their race or ideology is racism.

    No it is not. The key word in "racism" is "race." By definition you cannot be racist against some group based on anything except that group's race.

    Ideology has nothing to do with race, and therefore has nothing to do with racism.

  177. jackmax

    We are talking about a fictional being and to date no evidence has been produced to counter that fact.

    Man created all religions and it should be attacked for the crap that it is.

  178. GetCheckedNow

    Muslims are absolutely forbidden from hurting another human being except in self defense - that is, if they or another innocent person is in danger of immediate physical harm.

    To support this: The Prophet Mohamed was frequently cursed at by non-Muslims around him. They also threw things at him - garbage, animal entrails etc. He did not respond, but still greeted those people with courtesy.

    One such person was his neighbor, a man who yelled at the Prophet, insulted him, threw things at him on a daily basis. One day, the Prophet didn't see the neighbor - the neighbor was an old man, so the Prophet got worried. He heard the man was sick and he went to see him at the hospital (or what would've been the equivalent back then).

    Despite the neighbor constantly treating the Prophet badly - humiliated him, throwing things at him - the Prophet went to visit him, concerned he hadn't seen him. The neighbor was so shocked at the Prophet's kindness after all the horrible things he did to him, that he became a Muslim.

    Now that kindness & courtesy are part of Islam, what Muslims are "supposed to" do. But too many Muslims are ignorant of that, or just don't do it.

  179. walterbyrd

    > The atrocities, attacks occurring at the moment are not triggered by Islam.

    Yes they are. ISIS behaves exactly the same way Mohammad behaved, and the same way Mohammad demanded his followers behave.

  180. GetCheckedNow

    It is an insult to Muslims if any of the prophets are ridiculed or drawn in humiliating manner.

    However, Muslims are violating islamic law when they kill others without justification. The only justification is self-defense or defending someone else, and it has to be a valid fear of immediate physical harm. (not a threat over the phone, not eg a drunken fool about to fall down saying they will beat them up etc - but a real, imminent threat). EDIT to add: and the harm can be only enough to stop the threat.. can't use deadly force unless necessary to stop deadly force)

    Now what ignorant Muslims do, on the other hand, is an entirely different story. Just like Christians or Jews or Hindus who go around hurting others... they are following human nature, not their scripture!

  181. Fabien L'Amour

    Well, my point was not to prove or disprove Abrahamic gods are benevolent. I only question how believers (who generally think god is benevolent, otherwise I don't understand why they pray to it) think what's going on with religious conflicts between those 3 related monotheist faiths makes sense.

  182. DarkSpirit

    Well Christianity came from Europe and many people also believe that burning suspected witches on the stake seems rather backward too. There are many religions that, if you look closer, can appear rather backward too. Praying to your ancestors for instance, has no scientific basis either but many religions do that.

    And yes, you are right that they are free to practice their religion, as long as the religion doesn't threaten society, and we are obliged to practice religious tolerance. If you can't tolerate this religion or that religion then you should find a society with only atheists, but one can call that a religion in itself too.

  183. Achems_Razor

    I agree with 'jackmax' and you have completely lost the argument, by your vicious insults and ad hominem. Which by the way is not allowed on TDF, we are trying to keep TDF a happy place where everyone can voice their opinions without resorting to name calling. Just because you are from New York does not mean you have more understanding then anyone else.

  184. With Fortitude

    TO my friend Fabien ''' We know because we hear can hear his voice ! Listen ?

  185. Fabien L'Amour

    Many crazy violent fundamentalists also claim god is "talking" to them. Hearing the voice of God doesn't qualify him as a benevolent being. I think God could do much more obvious actions to prove he exists than "talking" to a few chosen people who not so coincidentally happened to believe in him beforehand.

  186. a_no_n

    yeah hence why i used the word culture to describe them instead of race.

    Did it ever occur to you that maybe not all of them believe in the hardcore orthadox version of their religion? what your saying about Muslims is like saying all Christians are westboro baptists...it's an absurdity that displays a shocking lack of empathy or understanding of human nature.

    Also it's worth noting that Christianity believes exactly the same thing.

  187. steviecomment

    Well over 300 comments, looks like the film is doing what it set out to do. Good job.

  188. jackmax

    I attack all religions every chance I get that is my right. i don't have to show respect of other when it comes to religion in the same vane us they don't show respect to my non belief. There are many thing that people say and do others may find offensive but that does not give them the right to commit violent acts because they don't like something or someone.

    however I know the biggest problem as if someone told me I couldn't drink alcohol and can't eat bacon I'd want to kill someone....:)

  189. Okami Eto

    "Buddhism also has got its crazy rules although it's said to be a peaceful religion." Which one?

  190. Kajbab

    It was great until he went on the Atheist rant...no problems have come from Jews trying to take over the world, and there is NO evidence that circumcision for males is anything but positive. The herpes that the baby contracted could have also come from one of the other caregivers present during the operation. Christians and Jews in the Western world and truly REFORMED Muslims who accept atheists and atheism but still want to keep their culture and traditions are not the issue. The problem is with the nucleus of worldwide Islam (20% of that population amounts to over 200 million people) extolling Jihad, FGM, death for Apostates, rape, enslavement ISIS Al Quada type stuff.

  191. jack

    "It is an insult to Muslims if any of the prophets are ridiculed or drawn in humiliating manner." i have to take issue with this statement. its not said in the koran that muhammed or jesus should not be drawn. the koran is the only book in islam that is the supposed word of god. however, in the hadith -which is not the word of god, it is forbidden for all muslims to depict anything with a soul yet shia muslims depict muhammed. if muslims feel "insulted" by things thats their problem. they are "insulted" by LOTS of things and if we in the west were to try to keep up and never "insult islam" with your way of life we wouldnt be able to. muslims also choose to live here.. they are free to return to paradise of the middle east, north africa or pakistan. and finally on your point, the idea that if a drawing is "humiliating" then that is only when they get annoyed. thats not true. if you label any drawing you have done as muhammed they will be very very emotional and in a rage. if you were the greatest artist on earth and could paint photorealistic paintings and painted muhammed exactly as he looked, they still would want to bebody you because they would FEEL emotions that make them very very angry in their bodies and prayer and looking into their hands and talking to the sky won't cure that rage.

  192. With Fortitude

    You misunderstand me friend. All Christians believe because they hear his voice. Whether we realize it or not God's spirit reassures us by giving us something that cannot be explained here; yet we are like children to you because we believe in something so foolish. How someone cannot see or hear our creator astounds me in the same way.
    The term "hear his voice" is implied and means more than you are able or want to understand.

  193. TGOBP

    Actually, 'scripture' isn't even fixed. Apart from translation differences between languages, and new 'revised' versions of some 'scriptures', before the printing press there was also the problem of copy errors, both accidental and deliberate.

  194. TGOBP

    Your Islamic apologetics are just as absurd as the Christian apologetics you condemn. Your argument is extremely stupid. And that's being kind.

  195. Uzair Ahmed

    I DISAGREE what your saying i mean we are talking about and your talking interpreting the verses ?

  196. jack

    male genital mutilation aka circumcision is not a positive thing. its an abhorrent thing. it removes over 80% of sexual pleasure and the bit that remains is then further dulled by the head of the penis becoming callous and desensitised like how an eyeball would become damaged if it didnt have an eyelid. if people sliced off a baby males eyelids at birth you would be saying its a good thing too. MGM endangers a childs life when its done. it is mutilation and torture. you should be ashamed of yourself for proclaiming it a good thing and if it was done to you then you shouldnt defend it just because you don't know any better. that would be like a child who had his left eye gouged out when he was a baby saying "well my right eye works fine so i see no problem with people having their left eye poked out because i don't feel like I'm missing out on something". atheism is what happens when people actually THINK and accept reality. look up the definition of the word "rant" so you no longer embarrass yourself by misusing it.

  197. Fabien L'Amour

    That's one of the problems with religions, words in religious books don't mean what they mean in dictionaries. You need to interpret what is written and said, otherwise it makes no sense.

    It's great for religious "experts" that can decrypt these obscure messages and appear as having a direct contact with god.

    I don't understand why a god that equally loves all of humanity would need a book with messages that can't easily be understood without expert interpretation though.

    Actually, I don't understand why he needs a book at all because, if the powers he allegedly possess are real, he can communicate his message directly to any brain without having to go through any 3rd person either.

  198. With Fortitude

    Your not the only one ; I have questions too.
    It seems things could have been much simpler also. The book has a purpose but it is not why I believe in God and you are right in that God doesn't need a book; in fact I wish Christians would realize we are more important than a book. Instead we let it divide us which is not what God intended.
    This is where simple faith comes in and it is all I have left. I believe in the Christ

  199. steviecomment

    FGM vs MGM, What happened to equality?

  200. Fabien L'Amour

    Why only Christians, don't you think Jews, Muslims and Christians believe in the same God?

  201. Fabien L'Amour

    Wouldn't it be great if people wouldn't get offended at inconsequential behavior? What difference does it make if you believe in god(s) or don't believe at all? The problem with it all is that some zealots are certain they are right and want others to think like them.

  202. GetCheckedNow

    For people who study the stories (hadith), they learn that the chain of narration is exquisitely precise. The person who related the story from day one - that is, they were personal witness to it - had to be honest, with nothing to mar their credibility. Then they had to directly pass the story on to someone else who has the same high integrity. Every time the story was passed along, they had to make sure the other person memorized the story with precise detail and that the person was someone of honor. And so it went from generation to generation. One weak link - eg one person in the chain of narration who did anything dishonorable - and that story would be either disregarded, or minimally, the story was accepted but noted as weak (with an explanation as to what happened to cause doubt as to the full authenticity).

    So for every "story" that survived transmission for the past 1400 years - and is now written down in more modern times - the chain of narration can viewed to note the name of each narrotor, all the way back to the original witness.

    So it's not like the Bible.

    In fact, very few stories (if any) in modern times have a history so precise.

  203. walterbyrd

    I am posting about the ideology, not the religion.

    > Also it's worth noting that Christianity believes exactly the same thing.

    Really? I don't seem to remember Jesus advocating rape, torture, and death to non-believers. I don't seem to remember Christianity's perfect example being a war monger, and looter.

    How often do we see Christians killing a cartoonist because they are offended? Oh cutting off the heads of non-believers?

    There have been over 25,000 terrorist attacks by Muslims since 9/11. No other religion comes anywhere close.

  204. jackmax

    Yeah mate I "hear" his voice right now, he's telling me that "this bloke With Fortune is brain dead if he thinks I'm real".
    If your hearing voices in your head mate it's time to seek professional help.

  205. Mads Djervig

    Seems like a solid production. I've gone through some of the numbers he mentions, and it seems correct. I am glad somebody bothered to make this. Cause yes we need to have this dialog - and as Sam Harris was quoted saying in the beginning. People need to understand that it is a criticism of the ideology, not the people.

  206. a_no_n

    yeah...you aren't seeing that stuff because you either haven't looked for it or you don't want to see it. The bible is literally filled with the righteous slaughter of the non believers, and don't forget about people like the Lords resistance army, the IRA, The Oslo gunman.

    If you don't remember christianitys perfect examples being warmongers i refer you to the crusades.

    Granted we don't see christians killing cartoonists, but if you go to the right parts of Africa you'll see them killing homosexuals instead...and burning children alive for witchcraft, all in the name of Jesus.

    yes 25000 terrorist attacks have been by muslims since 9/11...are you aware that 90% of the victims of those attacks have themselves been Muslim?

  207. GetCheckedNow

    In the old days, EVERYTHING was conveyed orally. That's where majority of history came from as most people were illiterate. Think about it.

    And it wasn't just "let me tell you a story and you tell it to someone else" and so on. More like "let me tell you the story, over & over & over, you tell it back to me, over & over & over, so I can be certain you have every word of the story precisely correct".

    Just like in modern times, the original Quran in Arabic (which is considered an oral scripture) was memorized during the time of the Prophet, where every syllable had to be precisely correct, and where it was practiced many, many times every single day for years. To this day, 1400 years later, not one word, not one syllable, of the Quran has changed. There are over 10 million people worldwide who have every word of the Quran memorized, and you can compare their recitation at any given moment to one of the original copies of the Quran (there are 4 originals still in existence).

    Some might say that is an impossible feat. However, it is a reality. Any person can go to any mosque in the world and find a verbatim recitation in the original Arabic.

  208. DarkSpirit

    I think people who call themselves atheists really belong to the atheism religion and like all religion, hopes to convert others into their specific religion. Except that, atheism is one of the most intolerant religion on Earth. Even our primitive science, that still has no understanding of about 96% of all matter/energy in this universe, has not proven that there can never be a god when any superior being in our mind bogglingly huge multiverse would seem like a god to us.

    Imagining ourselves to be the epitome of scientific advancement in the entire multiverse when we have only visited 1 planet, Earth, is sadly hilarious. We need to first learn to crawl out of our little crib before we decide what our universes should look like.

  209. DarkSpirit

    And for someone who doesn't respect anyone, why should anyone respect him?

    Even if many of us find your views offensive, that doesn't necessarily imply that we commit violent acts against you or someone else? You may actually be surprised to learn that most of us just don't really care enough about your views to commit any acts for or against you.

  210. DarkSpirit

    Well I am not a Muslim but yet I still don't share your view that Mohammad is a fictional character or a liar. So don't profess that you represent all of us, Non-Muslims. Most of us, non-Muslims, do not seem to have any problems living with Muslims at all.

    Are the ISIS terrorists the typical mainstream Muslims? Of course not! But I do know that they have been advertising themselves to be mainstream Muslims through their propaganda and through their agents. And many feeble-minded people actually believed them.

  211. jackmax

    Respect is something someone earns, not just given. But with saying if what they are saying is factually correct, it doesn't matter what you think of the messager, it's the message that is what's important.

    Show me where my non-belief forbids me from voicing my disgust in all religions. Why is there different standards for someone that believe in some un-proven "fairy sky daddy" to be able to preach and threaten me for my non belief, yet when someone that doesn't believe says something that offend them, people judge it more of an insult than the religees remarks and comments to us non believers.

  212. With Fortitude

    Do you have an easier time believing we crawled out of the sea?

  213. With Fortitude

    After all this time who'd a thought Grumpy was an Aussie .

  214. jack

    you said "Well I am not a Muslim but yet I still don't share your view that Mohammad is a fictional character or a liar. So don't profess that you represent all of us, Non-Muslims. Most of us, non-Muslims, do not seem to have any problems living with Muslims at all".
    so you are a non-muslim who thinks muhammed was a prophet who spoke to god? the only way to be a non-muslim is to think a, muhammed existed but didnt speak to god and made that up or b, muhammed never existed and was a fiction created by the people who actually wrote the koran. i look forward to you explaining yourself.. also ISIS are on of many violent muderous islamic cults that use the actual text of the koran to recruit people. muslims admit this too and saying that it has "nothing to with islam" hurts the cause of trying to weaken them.

  215. jack

    muhammad had secretaries during his life and often had bits of things he said written down and when he FORGOT them he would ask the secretary to remind him. muhammad had made revelations that years later his new revelations contradicted and thats when he said "must have been the devil telling me those earlier revelations" this is the inspiration for the salman rushdie novel - the satanic verses. when the koran was compiled after muhammad death from the memories of people who knew him, some of them had died and the passages of the koran they remembered were lost with them. there were quite a few versions of the koran created during the 2 decades after muhammads life. the fact remains, whoever actually created the book could easily have just made it all up and you wouldnt know the difference. the story of a book is more important the story in a book. even things that are considered historical facts in recent times are fictions. had JK Rowling began harry potter 1 with "the events of this book really happened" that is all she would have need to do to make her book of fiction a "history" book.

  216. With Fortitude

    That's a good question. You would have to understand the story of Ishmael and Isaac to answer your question. The #1 and #2 religions today came from these two boys . It's interesting how the Muslims are trying to eradicate the Jews and not the other way around.

  217. Stogmatter

    Great documentary! Thank you.

  218. jack

    you don't know who wrote the koran so thats the end of the debate.. sorry. everything written in was written by a human who would have just been lying.

  219. jack

    you sure you know what you mean when you say the word "god"? sounds like its a word you think means something but it actually doesnt when you think about it.

  220. jack

    they claim to have "faith" in god.but they don't. they think the book is a historical document and therefore they think god is real based on their "evidence". the faith the have is that the book wasn't written by people who were lying or then mistranslated or edited by people during its 2000 year journey. thats the only faith they have and its ludicrous.

  221. With Fortitude

    In this I would agree in that Christians have been poor stewards and have used this book to justify things it was never meant for. However , the book at the very least is a testament that goes back a few years (to say the least) to the creator I'm talking about, and you can thank Christianity for giving you the freedom to believe or not to believe.

  222. jack

    dinosaurs pal. dinosaurs. you lose the debate bible boy. one day you won't exist and the world will go on just as it did in 1875 before you existed. nut up and ego down

  223. With Fortitude

    What about intelligent design ;coincidence?

  224. With Fortitude

    Right but you would agree that of the 2 major religions (I'm assuming your atheist) because of Christianity you have the freedom to be atheist or at least not be in peril because of it.

  225. With Fortitude

    One of those?

  226. With Fortitude

    Chuckle, what gave me away! I've been talking about Christianity and scripture from the beginning. The best I've ever gotten from an evolutionist about ID is the fact that its boring. My questions is why can't we celebrate the fact that humankind is evolving and it is by design. Leaving our creator out of it just to satisfy the humans that think their smarter is hilarious despite the obvious proofs. After finding out the universe has to be set in a precise manner otherwise it would collapse ; should have been enough. But oh no the vanity of egos still prevail above a creator. How pathetic we must seem to our creator. The good news is he loves us anyway!

  227. With Fortitude

    If you mean any attempt to name God misses the mark . Then yes I agree. But we've come along way from grunting and pointing at the sky; wouldn't you say?

  228. walterbyrd

    > you aren't seeing that stuff because you either haven't looked for it or you don't want to see it.

    I have an open mind. Please give me the bible verse where Jesus commands his followers to kill infidels. Or where Jesus personally kills, rapes, and tortures. I promise you: if you provide that, and I will change my mind.

    > The bible is literally filled with the righteous slaughter of the non believers

    Old testament.

    > and don't forget about people like the Lords resistance army, the IRA, The Oslo gunman.

    Glad you brought that up.

    More civilians were killed by Muslim hijackers in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.

    More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined.

    As for the Oslo gunman, he was absolutely not fighting for the cause of Christianity. Most of the people he killed where not Muslims.

    But most importantly, consider the reaction by Christians. Did they party it up? Did they dance in the street and hand out candy, like the Palestinians on 9/11? Did the Christian cleargy praise him? Was he considered a great martyr and hero? No, Christians were horrified, and persecuted Breivik like the criminal that he was.

    Certainly, there are occasional non-Muslim crazies, but they are not acting out of Christian, or atheist, ideology.

    > If you don't remember christianitys perfect examples being warmongers i refer you to the crusades.

    Jesus was the perfect example, he was not a crusader. Furthermore, the crusades were a response to Muslim aggression. Nice try.

    > Granted we don't see christians killing cartoonists, but if you go to the right parts of Africa you'll see them killing homosexuals instead...and burning children alive for witchcraft, all in the name of Jesus.

    Extraordinarily unusual, and not endorsed by more widespread Christianity.

    > yes 25000 terrorist attacks have been by muslims since 9/11...are you aware that 90% of the victims of those attacks have themselves been Muslim?

    But it's always Islam isn't it? We don't see Jews fighting Buddhists, or anything like that. But we constantly see Muslims fighting: Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, and of course, other Muslims. Muslims do not get along with anybody, even other Muslims. That is because hatred, revenge, and violence, are cornerstones of the ideology.

  229. Fabien L'Amour

    The common root is Abraham which all 3 religions say existed and was contacted by God. Unless he was contacted by different gods, it has to be the same god since all 3 religions are monotheistic. All 3 religions also depict the Archangels Michael and Gabriel who would be creations of the same god.

    The divisions between the 3 religions are man made and if any believer of these faiths wants to remain true to the "words of god" books, he has to admit fellow believers of Abrahamic religions believe in the exact same god.

    "It's interesting how the Muslims are trying to eradicate the Jews and not the other way around." That statement is highly questionable, you might want to write some Muslims are trying to eradicate Jews.

  230. With Fortitude

    . I'm human and alive everything else is negotiable . Well at least your alive and its negotiable .

  231. With Fortitude

    ID is backed by the same science evolution uses . Refuted in what way?

  232. With Fortitude

    The father of the two sons was Abraham , but you should know the God that Abraham prayed to blessed Isaac to be the line from which the Jews , David and Jesus would come from not Ishmael. The Muslims are praying to the same god the Hindus pray to.

    You might want to write some Muslims are trying to eradicate Jews ( I believe I did)

  233. max

    sunday night, instead of watching the Oscars i decided to watch this..... excellent documentary. i would like to have an open discussions about islam, but i guess that might be a blasphemy for the believers.

  234. Fabien L'Amour

    What difference does it make who he blessed if all 3 religions acknowledge he talked to Abraham and label him as a great patriarch of their faith, it would be the same entity.

    Are you saying your god wouldn't listen to prayers from people who acknowledge him because they aren't descendents of Isaac?

  235. With Fortitude

    Scientific method ? I wasn't comparing ID and evolution in that way. Physics , Mathematics, Mans has evolved to understand these things. What calculation of ID is pseudoscience ? The problem is greater minds than ours have argued this with neither disproving the other. ID I believe is winning though since the percentage of atheist in the world has dropped below 2%

  236. With Fortitude

    These are questions I would humbly ask God yourself . Yes it does seem God chose things to be done a certain way. I have an idea as to why but I think you should discover this yourself.

  237. jack

    intelligent design. so now you say that something you call "god" as created evolution in life forms. i guess you think all alien species out there in the universe evolve too? and that dinosaurs evolved? i say "intelligent design" is actually the process by which god was created.

  238. With Fortitude

    No creationism is biblical and you dispel it with evolution whereas ID is the proof of a creator you can't dispel with evolution. The make up of the universe is precise and is indicative of a creator. There is no theory that I've heard of yet to refute this.

  239. jack

    what do you mean when you say the word "god"? what are you picturing in your head when you saw that word? i suspect you don't know what you mean when you say it. is god made of atoms in your mind? is god a man who speaks english? is god outside of the universe? does god have a creator? does god have genitals?

  240. jack

    you don't know who wrote the bible. you don't know how many times its been edited and mistranslated. your belief that the bible is a factual document is so naive when you know perfectly well how "wrong" all other holy books are. you are only addicted to the biochemical drugs you experience in your own body when you talk to yourself thinking you are talking to god. you wasted your one and only life lying to yourself.

  241. Fabien L'Amour

    Sorry, I can't give my faith to a god that has prejudices against some of the humans he created based solely on ancestry.

  242. Fabien L'Amour

    And no theory to prove it either.

  243. DarkSpirit

    Sure, he probably thought he was a prophet from god but whether he really was, is a matter of belief. There are people who truly believe that they saw an UFO and they are are not lying, but was it really an UFO?

  244. DarkSpirit

    It is a matter of faith. Maybe a superior being did appear to humans in the past, or maybe they have never really appeared to humans before.

    Somebody in the past did say that a superior did manifest to them, kind of like someone else claiming to see an UFO or have even been abducted by aliens. Did that really happen? Do aliens with technologies superior to ours really exist and visited Earth in the past?

    It is up to each one of us to believe that or not. Note that Science doesn't claim that aliens cannot exist nor does it claim that aliens with superior technologies to ours cannot exist in our 13.8 billion years old universe. Therefore, how can anyone say that it is totally unscientific and implausible that a superior being visited us in the past?

  245. DarkSpirit

    Respect is also mutual. If you don't respect them, how can you expect them to respect you instead?

    You are, of course, free to hate anyone you want to. The law would not stop you. Just like you can also act like a total jerk to all your friends and relatives and still be within the confines of the law.

    I have never threatened anyone who doesn't agree with me and neither has the mainstream Muslims. If mainstream Muslims cannot stand non-Muslims then they wouldn't be fighting alongside Americans and Europeans against ISIS would they? It is ISIS that corrupted Islam, committed horrific acts, then PRETENDING to be mainstream Muslims to the west so that western countries and mainstream Muslims, both enemies of ISIS, would annihilate each other.

    Unfortunately, their ruse is working very well against the Europeans and soon the ISIS war alliance would have to breakup because the citizens of your Muslim allies would force their governments to turn against the western countries because Europeans keep attacking mainstream Islam and mainstream Muslims.

    When that happens your ability to bomb ISIS territories would end as Saudi Arabia and Qatar would be forced to turn against western countries. Russia, China, and Iran, countries with significant Muslim citizens and nuclear capabilities, would join the fray if the Saudis are threatened by the west.

  246. With Fortitude

    What about ID can you refute ? Alright what about the size of the earth and the fact that gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases which only extend about 50 miles from the earths surface. If earth was smaller an atmosphere would be impossible. If it were lager its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter. What about the distance the earth is from the sun. If the earth was any further away we would all freeze and any closer we would all burn up. Any fractional variance of the earth's position to the sun would make life on earth impossible . I could go on about gravity and the moon , water etc. Then we could talk about the eye, brain and so forth.

    You see Intelligent design is not only apparent in the universe but the earth and human body as well.

    So, the next question is who is responsible for all of this. I believe you know the answer to that too. It's still a choice

  247. With Fortitude

    I'm from planet earth and you?

  248. TGOBP

    Probably a similar amount of people that understand you're a fool. Obviously all that noise in your head makes critical thinking difficult for you. What does your voices have to do with talking about Islam? Next time your voice tells you to drink the kool-aid, ask for a 2nd glass mate.

  249. TGOBP

    No, wrong. Can you explain what evolution is? I'm yet to hear one of you ID fools actually understand and describe the Theory properly, let alone come close to a feasible, testable and provable point in your Creation myth. Proof you say. I suspect we both know that is a lie. As is your lie about using the same science evolution does. ID backed by science... if you mean backed into a corner it cannot escape, yeah sure. Maybe that's why you always bore people, most BS artists do pretty quickly.

  250. TGOBP

    I also note your usual old worn out attempt at shifting the burden of proof. You claim ID is proven... so prove it.

  251. TGOBP

    Haha, me too there mate. I was talking about how With Fortitude said people tell him his ID BS is boring. I can see why they would think that with him. Lots of claims, nothing produced. Not even a laughable half-duck. Only a croc...croc'o sh1t so far.

  252. TGOBP

    No, wrong again. As has been shown in a US court decision that you also know about. ID and creationism, same BS. You should also know you are disobeying your book when you knowingly lie.

  253. TGOBP

    All of it, ID is not science at all, but re-branded creationism. Percentage of belief has no impact on fact. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not, unlike the requirement of faith for your argument. Similar percentages also believed the earth was flat. Means nothing unless you can demonstrate your claim, which you know you cannot.

  254. TGOBP

    Nice of you to claim you KNOW what your god intended, then show the oxymoron your statements are when you say you believe. Knowledge and belief... get a dictionary and learn something.

  255. TGOBP

    Hmm, what happened to I Am then? Missed the mark did He? lol.

  256. TGOBP

    Again you display you believe things without checking or understanding. You said, "the Muslims", not SOME Muslims. Huge difference. I can see it's a bit hard for you, but word definitions do actually matter hey.

  257. TGOBP

    I recall reading Pope Francis has announced 'God' told him Evolution and the BB are 'real'. Pope Nazi also said something along the lines of Evolution is very strong. So I believe it is now a requirement of Catholic's to accept evolution. Weird how 'God' once again, after science discovered it, finally remembered something is now actually 'real'. Seems their god not only has anger and ego problems, also memory.

  258. TGOBP

    I thought you said you were created. Your 'god' the Earth is it?

  259. TGOBP

    When were you voted spokesman for "All Christians" ? I've spoken to quite a few that don't hear magical voices, implied or otherwise.

  260. Achems_Razor

    You have it all wrong, everything was not made for us little (almost invisible) carbon units from your invisible gods, but we, through the process of evolution have adapted to the earth as it is. Go out into space and see how inhospitable it is, where are your ID gods then?

    funny religee's

  261. TGOBP

    Wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong. It is generally accepted that the atmosphere extends about 62 miles up, but there is no actual 'set' boundary exactly. No, Mars is only 53% the diameter of Earth, about 10% of the mass, has a gravity of about 38% of that of Earth's, and while the atmosphere is currently less than 1% compared to Earth's, it proves your assertion of a smaller planet than Earth would make any atmosphere 'impossible' is false. You also don't seem to know the Earth is on an elliptical orbit, our distance from the Sun changes all the time. So no, a slight variance in distance would not make life impossible, it already happens. Yes, no doubt you could go on, but you would also continue to sprout absolute rubbish.
    P.S. Can you explain why Methane has been detected, more than once, on Mars? God fart was it?

  262. TGOBP

    Christ supposedly coming from the line of the 'miracle' child that Abraham was prepared to murder, as opposed to the b@stard half-brother's line, does not mean they believe in different gods at all. Same BS, different flavor is all.

  263. TGOBP

    Lol, you know, but you won't tell us. Good one. My turn. What sways from side to side? Jesus on a rubber cross. One more.... Top 10 reasons why Beer is better than Jesus;
    1. No one will kill you for not drinking beer.
    2. Beer doesn't tell you how to have sex.
    3. They don't force beer on minors that can't think for themselves.
    4. Beer has never caused a major war.
    5. When you have a beer, you don't knock on people's doors trying to give it away.
    6. No one has been burned at the stake, hanged or tortured over a beer.
    7. You don't have to wait over 2000 years for a 2nd beer.
    8. There are laws saying beer labels cannot lie to you.
    9. You can prove you have a beer.
    10. If you are devoted to beer, there are groups that can help you to stop.

  264. TGOBP

    Wrong again. At least you are consistent. No, we have our freedom DESPITE Christianity, not BECAUSE OF. Go learn some real history, you won't look so asinine.

  265. a_no_n

    I'll try and address your comment on a point by point basis:

    1/"Please give me the bible verse where Jesus commands his followers to kill infidels."

    This was quite refreshing in that it was an interesting question. It was actually quite difficult to answer but i believe i can do it, whilst also addressing what i believe to be a misconception you have about the old testaments place in christian lore.

    Matthew 5:18: For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

    Jesus is clearly saying that every letter of the law (old testament) is fully valid for christians. Jesus can't condone it without also condoning the rape and slaughter performed against the caananites. You also cannot relinquish responsibility for that text because your own lord and messiah says in no uncertain terms that he believes in it in it's entirety! Don't forget that Christianity is a schism religion of Judaism. the original christians in the Eastern Roman Empire had to convert to Judaism before they were allowed to convert to Christianity!

    2/More civilians were killed by Muslim hijackers in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.

    not at all true. in the conflict known commonly as "the troubles" 3600 people are known to have been killed, with many more injured and others missing.

    on September the 11th 2996 people died.

    I guess my question here is, why are they both not equally as horrible? Why does the death toll even figure into it? Is there a scoring system or something that i'm not aware of?

    3/"More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined."

    Since many of the trials held by the Spanish inquisition were held in secret it boggles my mind how you think you are able to make that claim with a straight face...We have no way of knowing how many people were killed by the spanish inquisition...but more imporantly i feel the need to ask again why body counts seem to matter, as if one side having a slightly smaller of tortured bodies under it's carpet some how makes it better than another in exactly the same situation.

    4/. "Jesus was the perfect example, he was not a crusader. Furthermore, the crusades were a response to Muslim aggression. Nice try."

    This is a classic misunderstanding. those Muslim "Agressions" can just as easily be seen as the local populace throwing off the yoke of the Roman empire...What difference does it make if they were worshipping the old god Zoroaster, or the new God Allah? It's a wonderfully one sided opinion that fails to even attempt to make space for another perspective.

    "But it's always Islam isn't it? We don't see Jews fighting Buddhists, or anything like that."

    No...mostly because Buddhism is an asian religion not an arabic one...To be honest you might want to actually research Indian history before making a claim like that.

    5/"Muslims do not get along with anybody, even other Muslims. That is because hatred, revenge, and violence, are cornerstones of the ideology"

    we have a name for people who judge an entire culture of people based on one ridiculously extreme stereotype...can you guess what that word is? it begins with an R.

  266. DarkSpirit

    Maybe that is what the supreme being wants for whatever reasons. Even in the Christian the Bible:

    "Now Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." - Hebrews 11:1

    If all beliefs is put out based solely on physical evidences, then faith would be obsolete and would hold no value would it?

  267. walterbyrd

    > Jesus is clearly saying that every letter of the law (old testament) is fully valid for christians.

    Clearly not. For example, Jesus said it is okay to eat pork, whereas the old testament said it is not okay. Clearly, Jesus did change some of the old laws.

    > You also cannot relinquish responsibility for that text because your own lord and messiah says in no uncertain terms that he believes in it in it's entirety!

    Not "my" lord. I am an atheist.

    > not at all true. in the conflict known commonly as "the troubles" 3600 people are known to have been killed, with many more injured and others missing.
    > on September the 11th 2996 people died.
    > I guess my question here is, why are they both not equally as horrible? Why does the death toll even figure into it? Is there a scoring system or something that i'm not aware of?

    It matters because you are trying to create a false equivalence. You are trying to say that Christians are as bad as Muslims. But, in fact, they are not. Not by one helluva long shot.

    > Since many of the trials held by the Spanish inquisition were held in secret it boggles my mind how you think you are able to make that claim with a straight face

    > This is a classic misunderstanding. those Muslim "Agressions" can just as easily be seen as the local populace throwing off the yoke of the Roman empire

    Bulit. Christianity existed for six centuries before Islam was invented. How do you think those Muslim lands became Muslim lands?

    The Crusades were Christians defending themselves against Muslims.

    More importantly, the Crusades, and inquisition were centuries ago. Christians do not do that crap anymore. Islam, by contrast, acts exactly the same way it did in the 7th century. If anything, Islam has gone backwards.

    > No...mostly because Buddhism is an asian religion not an arabic one

    What does that have to do with anything? Muslims are fighting Buddhists in Thailand.

    > To be honest you might want to actually research Indian history before making a claim like that.

    What? That Muslims have been fighting Hindus, and the Muslims have been fighting Buddhists. Look it up.

    > we have a name for people who judge an entire culture of people based on one ridiculously extreme stereotype...can you guess what that word is? it begins with an R.

    I have a word for bulls*it artists, I call them "bulls*it artists."

    Was Mohammad a "ridiculously extreme stereotype?" Because Mohammad behaved exactly like ISIS. Mohammad also demanded the same from his followers.

    BTW: Islam is no more a race, than Catholicism is a race. Islam is an ideology. Ideologies can be criticized.

    Nice try playing the race card.

  268. walterbyrd

    > I could go on about gravity and the moon , water etc.

    Water? Are you going to tell us that water only exists on earth?

    Please do. Please tell us about how water only exists on earth.

  269. Abdul KSA

    Dude, you need to read more about Islam instead just talking nonsense about Islam.You epitomize what Allah says in the Quran about how 'they try to extinguish the light of Allah with their months, but Allah will perfect His light'. Islam is the way of life that all Prophets taught their people.Mohammad was send as the final Prophet and Messenger to all of mankind.Many people that are not believers are now realizing the falsehood in their previous way of life and are submitting themselves to Allah in the correct manner.Islam is the proper system.If you haven't tried it than you are missing out on a great treasure.

  270. Abdul KSA

    What do you need to know ?

  271. Abdul KSA

    Great if you are ignorant about true Islam.

  272. Abdul KSA

    Who created the seven heavens and the earth? Can you give an answer?

  273. Abdul KSA

    No way. That's not true. They have no control over how you think. They only want to save you from a fire whose fuel is men, jinn, and stones.It's known as Jahannam.(Hell) My advice to you is to read the Quran, and if you have any questions, ask an upright Muslim that you may known.And don't ask people that are not Muslim. I have a question for you. Do you know what happens to you when the last person get 40 steps away from your grave after you are buried?

  274. Abdul KSA

    Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) circumcised himself when he was in his 80's. There is tremendous benefit in circumcision.However, most of you do not know.Islam is a way of life based on knowledge. Question. Do you know the three reasons why Allah created the stars? Give me an answer if you know.

  275. Fabien L'Amour

    How is it not true? You just said they want to save others from hell, there is no way one would get saved if they don't believe in hell hence, they need to think like them and submit to Allah even though they might have lived a perfectly moral life without Muslim faith.

    How do I identify an upright Muslim?

    I have no idea what the absence of a human being within 40 steps do to a corpse, enlighten me.

  276. Fabien L'Amour

    Why do you reject religions based on earlier prophets as not being proper systems? Musa (Moses) and Isa (Jesus) are important Muslim messengers. Why is only the "final prophet" right? Why did Allah stop sending prophets after Mohammad? Doesn't look to me the work is fully completed with so many Non-Muslims on the planet. If Allah was to send another man that declares himself a prophet, would you accept him or reject him since you label Mohammad as the final one?

  277. Achems_Razor

    In the news at this moment! Al-Shabaab group, a video, that urge Muslims to attack shopping malls in western countries including the West Edmonton Mall, in the name of their Allah. google it.

  278. Fabien L'Amour

    I don't quite understand why West Edmonton Mall is considered a den of evil for these guys, are Muslims forbidden to shop in Malls?

  279. DarkSpirit

    Then you are obviously not someone who has the required faith to be in the religion. This is why another word for religion is the word, Faith.

    It is like Neo in the matrix when he was asked to choose between the blue and the red pill. How would he know if they are poison?

    If it is so easy to believe, then everyone would be able to do it. Not everyone is meant to take the red pill. There are people who have faith in a higher power even if you don't.

  280. Mads Djervig

    The laws of physics to some extent. But there isn't a who that created the heavens nor the earth. Try reading a science book mate. The natural process by which our planet came about is quit fascinating.
    Seriously - questions like that is what gives religious people a bad rep.

  281. DarkSpirit

    In the same way, everyone would expect the same from you. There would be no reason for anyone to respect you if you have not earned their respect.

  282. Achems_Razor

    Don't know, but malls are on alert! beefing up security, In States and Canada and the world.

  283. Fabien L'Amour

    I heard part of the speech on Mail Online. He says they are Jewish owned. I don't quite understand how killing innocent shoppers, who's religion can't be determined, will hurt the Jewish owners though.

  284. Abdul KSA

    The majority of mankind will disbelieve. Look at Prophet Noah, he preached to his people for 950 years. But only a few believed in him as the messenger of Allah. They ridiculed him and taunted him and called him a mad man. After all that time only about 80 people entered the Ark with him. Even his own son refused to believe.Than the great flood occurred and covered the whole earth. Only those who boarded the Ark were saved. Mankind started again for his people.Allah sent other Prophets and Messengers throughout time to guide the people to the straight path.Some believed, many disbelieved.Just like today, some believe, many disbelieve.Allah is the Most Merciful. He gave man a free will.He tells us in the Qur'an, 'those will be successful who purifies his soul, and those will be failures who stunted it (chapter 91,verses 9 and 10).

  285. Abdul KSA

    Before I answer you please ask a muslim whom you might know what happens after death so you won't be shocked by my answer.

  286. With Fortitude

    Listen, Grownups realize hiding behind a computer while insulting someone shows low character and severe cowardice. We just don't do it. Going back and forth with insults ruins my mood and I have to work with other real Adults to pay my bills . So, are you a little kid or can you play nice?

  287. With Fortitude

    Bible boy? Nut up and ego down. What are you 12? Grow up or shut up!

  288. With Fortitude

    Alright , so we were talking about ID and you should already know the argument has no end. Because I have credentialed scholars on my end too. ID is supported by scientific method and theory and ID is not the same as creationism.

  289. TGOBP

    'Grownups', or more correctly mature people, also usually realise believing in the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, 'prophets' on flying winged horses cutting the moon in half, talking snakes, satyrs and other such nonsense is all mythical nonsense.
    Now you play the victim card because you don't like the truth, typical apologetics. Look up the definitions for 'fool', and 'kool-aid drinker'. They fit what you've displayed on here quite adequately.

    I'm happy to meet and discus this with you face to face if that is what you wish, I'm in Brisbane Australia. And no, I'm not a little kid. Come meet me, we'll find out if we can 'play nice'.

    You don't want to go back and forth with insults, yet this is the post you choose to reply to. Not the ones pointing out your claims and assertions are incorrect. Not the one asking if you actually understand the counter-argument to your absurd fallacies. No, you chose to go with 'poor me, I'm a victim'. I also note your attempted ducking of any questions.
    But no, when you say to people 'you can't have morals', or 'what you say you believe is NOT actually what you believe', or 'you are going to burn for all eternity in hell because you won't just accept my nonsensical assertions as fact', that's not insults. No, it's ok for you and your group to insult all you like, but can't take the same attitude reciprocated.
    Not only are you a fool, you're a hypocritical sook too. When you insult, it's 'preaching', doing 'the Lord's work'. When others treat you the same, it's now hate speech or bullying or insults. Can you not see the paradox there? Or was my other observation about your poor critical thinking skills also accurate?

  290. TGOBP

    Lost revenue. Make no mistake, religion is really more interested in Profits, than Prophets.

  291. TGOBP

    No True Scotsman fallacy...look it up. That's what you just did.

  292. aam641

    Not quite. Islam is whatever its followers (majority of them) want it to be.

  293. TGOBP

    And suggesting 'those Muslim's are not following the TRUE Islam' is an example of that fallacy.

  294. TGOBP

    No, no one 'knows' that Allah even exists, let alone created anything.

  295. TGOBP

    And maybe you can explain why the Qu'ran says the earth is flat, like a carpet, pinned down by the mountains like pegs, and the sky is drawn over us like a tent. Hmm, apart from being factually incorrect, it is interesting to note that is exactly what one would expect ignorant, tent dwelling nomads of the time to believe. Is exactly opposite to how an all-knowing creator would say it is. Unless of course He is lying. Your book cannot be what you claim it is. Therefore in reality it is BS.

  296. TGOBP

    And NO, there is nothing beneficial about FGM. Unless of course you are a sexist, controlling a$$hole.

  297. TGOBP

    No world-wide flood has occurred in the time frame you claim. There is no logical reason to believe any of that nonsense about Noah and the flood. There is however very good evidence that never happened.

  298. TGOBP

    I have lived in an Islamic country. It was a rotten, ugly, unjust 'system' for more than half of the population. Your definition of 'great treasure' is obviously different to the accepted meanings of the words.

  299. Fabien L'Amour

    I am pretty hard to shock.

  300. TGOBP

    I don't think it is feasible, or even possible to truly enforce a ban on 'beliefs'. I do however think it is not only feasible, but very necessary to enforce a limit and punishment on what can and can't be done 'in the name of' a religion. No religion has any place in government, education or law in a just system. I think the way to overcome silly, destructive 'beliefs' is education. Once one understands the claims of the 'scriptures', and then that many of them cannot be accurate, it tends to break the 'hold' religion has on minds. I also think that religious leaders understand this, and is why there is a big push by religion to insert itself into education in many places in the world that it isn't controlling education already. That is why they hate science despite science not caring about religion, it proves them incorrect.

  301. TGOBP

    You overestimate your abilities.

  302. TGOBP

    So which version of Islam is correct, Sunni or Shiite? According to you it all comes down to the numbers. Another fallacy, this one is an appeal to popularity. Numbers have nothing to do with fact v's fiction.

  303. Fabien L'Amour

    You say Allah is the most merciful yet you just claimed he drowned everybody and all animals but a few believers and animals. I fail to see the mercy in the act of drowning that many living beings whether they believe in a god or not, or, like babies and animals, don't have the intelligence to be held accountable for their lack of belief. You say Allah gave man free will but when they exert it by not believing in him, he kills them all.

    I really question your morale judgement when you consider the killing of thousands babies and animals as an act of a merciful being.

  304. aam641

    But there is no fact and no fiction! In general, "islam" stands for a set of beliefs and practices. And the specifics depend on popular beliefs and "culture".

  305. With Fortitude

    I see now your still not able to understand how foolish you look insulting me behind a keyboard. ID has nothing to do with religion but you should know that. Your the one invoking religion in this conversation Besides I don't believe in Hell. I just don't feel like being pissed off all day because of a conversation I'm having with a little twit. No your probably an adolescent still pulling one off for himself . Grow up kid

  306. Fabien L'Amour

    I am confident that's not going to work, just like it didn't work against Charlie Hebdo.

  307. TGOBP

    You think flying a winged horse to the Moon and cleaving it in half with a sword is neither fact or fiction? Hmm. You think the earth being described as flat is also neither? The specifics of a 'believer's' beliefs actually depend on a persons particular interpretation of what you say is neither fact or fiction. As with other belief systems, there is a massive range in personal interpretation, and an appeal to popularity has no bearing on whether any particular version is accurate. Take Halal as one example. There is often a massive difference in how one Muslim defines what is Halal compared to another. Based on how they interpret the scriptures. But ALL of them are still considered Halal by a non-muslim.

  308. aam641

    The difficulty I have with Islam (compared to my religion - Christianity) is its ambiguous standing on religious killing. The global consensus in Christianity these days is that advocating religious killings makes you a bad Christian, if not an outright heretic. In Islam, this distinction has not yet crystallized.

  309. TGOBP

    Your dishonesty is on display for all to see. ID is not religion in disguise hey? Who then do you propose is your 'designer' ? Using adjectives that accurately describe someone is not automatically an insult. There is some that know me on here. They will confirm if you ask that your 'belief' on my age is as warranted and factual as your other BS beliefs. You believe some 'sky-daddy' made you... and you're telling me to grow up. Lmao.

  310. Fabien L'Amour

    Billions of men and animals don't get circumcised and seem to live a perfectly normal life. What are those TREMENDOUS benefits you are talking about?

  311. aam641

    Perhaps I was not clear. Halal is a good example of what I was talking about. There is no true objective definition of "halal" that is independent of people's beliefs.

  312. TGOBP

    Then you don't obey your scriptures to the letter, you've cherry picked to make up your own theology out of it. You think your God and Allah are the one and same? Remember your first commandment. In regards to Islam v Christianity... if you're going to be fair, you have to compare Christianity from 700 years ago. That's the very least the 'head-start' it has on Islam (if you don't count the OT, which isn't 'fair'), the extra time it's had to 'crystalize' into the mixed up mess Christianity currently is. It wasn't all that long ago you were at each other's throats, burning at the stake. You've nothing to boast about your version of BS over Islam.

  313. TGOBP

    And therefore, ALL personal takes on Halal come under the heading of 'Islam'. All versions of it are. Unlike what you claim, the majority determine it. Now you're arguing the opposite. Thank you for pointing out why it was an example of the No True Scotsman fallacy above.

  314. aam641

    Religions are part of culture and they change with it.

  315. Fabien L'Amour

    I don't understand how it can escape them that all these innocent kids would have been drowned because their parents didn't believe.

    People get angry when detainees get water boarded yet are perfectly fine with death by drowning for children because it was done by a God. Morally bankrupt thinking.

    Also why would Abrahamic divinities require such devotion and get angry when someone denies their existence as to destroy them? It's not like the lack of devotion and belief would cause these divinities to cease to exist.

    If they didn't like the behavior of humans, they could have removed their free will and have them function as programmed robots or they could create other beings more to their liking on other planets that don't have the capacity of logic and disbelief instead of deciding to have them suffer painful deaths by drowning.

  316. TGOBP

    Proving the 'Immutability of God' claims in your Bible are incorrect. Malachi 3:6 for starters. Which also proves the 'inerrant' claims false.

  317. aam641

    Nobody can obey Bible to the letter, it is too long, too complex, and too self-contradictory.
    And no, I will not compare present day Islam to 13th century Christianity. The very idea is naive, ignorant, and insulting to both Muslims and Christians.

  318. aam641

    God, if there is one, is immutable and independent of what we believe or practice.

    And my beliefs about Bible are squarely in line with the 2nd Vatican Council. The Bible contains exactly what God wanted it to contain (at the time of its writing) for the sake of our salvation. Which, of course, explains everything and nothing (religion is not science!)

  319. TGOBP

    Insulting to you because you don't like facts. At the same point in the religious evolution of the BS you say you adhere to, you guys were killing each other and other non-believers. It wasn't because the Church decided to stop killing people... you were forced to pull your heads in. Just as some Muslims that now want to inflict the same as yours did are needing to be pulled up. If you know the Bible is actually full of BS, how can you say you believe it?

  320. TGOBP

    How do you know what 'god' wanted?

  321. Fabien L'Amour

    Christianity is very clear on religious killing. As long as it's done by their God, it's perfectly fine.

  322. With Fortitude

    ID and creationism are not the same. So how can ID'ers be using a bible ? Go back to your question asking me do I believe Genesis's version of how God created everything. I told you the majority of Christians today understand the book of Genesis is not a literal
    account .

  323. TGOBP

    ID is a form of Creationism. Name it what you wish, you're only deluding yourself. You didn't answer my question, who then do you propose is the Designer?

  324. TGOBP

    You want a more current Christian example? Go look at which religion the KKK are affiliated with. Then look when the last murder was committed. Look in the mirror before you point the finger at Islam, you're no better.

  325. aam641

    If I understand you correctly, you say that either 'halal' has to have an objective universal definition, or that the term is meaningless.

  326. TGOBP

    Yes, you tried to BS myself and others and it's not working. Put your fingers in your ears all you like. ID is Creationism, like it or not. Your motives are clear to see, no, it is not 'science' and does not belong in a science class.

  327. aam641

    See above. I don't 'know', but I do 'believe'.

  328. TGOBP

    No. I'm saying that as it is all different forms of Islam, it comes under the 'label' Islam. Your attempt at making your No True Scotsman fallacy work, doesn't.

  329. TGOBP

    No. You stated, "The Bible contains exactly what God wanted it to contain (at the time of its writing)..".
    Which originals do you have? How do you know what was originally written? And again, how do you KNOW (you made a statement) what god wanted? I also note you now introduce another fallacy, appeal to authority.

  330. aam641

    I am not talking about extreme cases, which will always occur, but about the general attitude. KKK is a good example. It was a violent ideology that tried to co-opt Christian religion. Yet in this it was mostly unsuccessful, being denounced by most (all?) large Christian churches.

  331. jackmax

    There is only two states in Aust worth mentioning and they are drunk and Queensland, and if you're drunk in Queensland you can't go wrong mate.

  332. jackmax

    Maaate, after reading your comments it seems you have very little understanding on many things. It would appear that you have failed in your argument when you had to start insulting the messager.
    By the way I know TGOBP and I know 40 is the new 30 but that still makes him an adult, and may I say that he has shown more evidence to back his argument than you by a country mile.

    You have contradicted yourself as well used the scottsman fallacy and other means to endorse your personal belief.
    The only thing that matters is what we can prove and to date all the evidence confirms that all religion is man made and should be taken as nothing less than a group of fairytales.

  333. jackmax

    That's right you have tried to convert as most religions demand from their sheep but failed.

  334. jackmax

    So your opinion is that if someone disagrees with you they must be a child. How mature of you!!!

    Why is it so difficult for you religees to discuss or debate this subject without insulting the people who have a different opinion than yours.

    You have been shown to be factually incorrect several times now yet you still can not except stop lying about some "fairy sky daddy" yet you call others childish.

  335. jackmax

    Considering you have made some statement to the effect that your "fairy sky daddy" is real the burden of proof is all yours.
    What precise manner is the universe set?

    To answer your question most atheists do celebrate mankind evolving as shown by our desire to learn more about evolution and the truth of the dangers of all religions and the nutters that believe in it.

  336. jackmax

    How exactly?
    Evolution is a subject matter that can be proven by science unlike ID.

  337. jackmax

    Bring some seeds over and you're more than welcome mate.

  338. jackmax

    Your credentialed scholar wouldn't be Ray Comfort by any chance?

  339. BC

    Average life expectancy was about 30, 4000 years ago, so Noah didn't live 950 years. Unless you were a Iron Age, uneducated folk who believed such nonsense.

  340. TGOBP

    You still want to plead your No True Scotsman fallacy. As plentsje said, it grew out of the justification given in your Bible. What was it you said earlier, Islam (Christianity in this case) is what the followers determine it to be? So now you're arguing against your earlier position?

  341. TGOBP

    So you are a Catholic then, correct? I'd like to ask you a sincere question if that is so.

  342. TGOBP

    You're not the first dishonest person that hasn't liked me pointing that out. IDGAF, you're the one talking BS, if you don't like the response, don't talk BS.

  343. TGOBP

    Yes, in many ways they actually worship the book more than the god.

  344. TGOBP

    Who ever said humans crawled out of the sea?

  345. TGOBP

    "Grow up or shut up!". How very Christian of you. No, you don't get to tell people here to shut up, bible boy.

  346. DarkSpirit

    I have seen and heard some weird sh*t too as I was walking alone in a very cold winter night and no, I wasn't drinking at all or under any drugs. Some others have similar encounters too.

    Suffice it to say that some things can't be easily explained by current Science and that wasn't my only supernatural encounter. So is it really blind devotion? Not really for me but to each his own.

  347. Shadowblur

    ....When it says, "We Need to Talk about Islam."
    Does it really mean, "We Need to Deal with Islam"? I find this
    disturbing. I'm not siding with Islam, I'm actually part agnostic, and when I
    say, “part” I mean I believe the universe its self to be God, an invisible
    force. The universe is a live entity, and since we’re all alive in it, my
    conclusion is we were created by it.

  348. jack

    and all this wasn't just a lie written by someone in a book that you read thousands of years later and believed?

  349. jack

    you don't know who wrote the koran therefore you have every reason to believe what they wrote in it was all lies. get on your knees and talk to your hands for the next 60 years and then you might get your "treasure". oh and don't masturbate.

  350. jack

    the only source you need to learn about islam is the koran.same goes for the bible. and its not prejudging is islam, its judging islam. in what way is it bigoted? you know the wests way of life is BETTER than the muslims worlds way of life. thats "bigotry" but its also a fact. "As to the idea that it's ok because they talked to some muslims, that is wholly insufficient.". so how many muslims did you want to be in the film? point being, its impossible to be one sided when it showed supposed "radical" muslims saying what they believe.

  351. jack

    i know this sounds like I'm an being an Ahole but i have to say to you that i feel like you are an intellectual lightweight and you just don't have the mental skill to handle this debate. you never respond to my reply which is based on what you have actually said previously. i perceive you have female linguistic tendencies towards illogic. on the UFO point, if someone saw a flying object they couldn't identify then that means it was an unidentified flying object. you said "Sure, he probably thought he was a prophet from god but whether he really was, is a matter of belief". no its not, its a matter of fact or not fact. he either was or he wasn't. but whether he was or wasn't, muslims believe he was and non muslims believe he wasn't. you say you are non muslim but then say you don't believe he wasn't a prophet.

  352. DarkSpirit

    You seem to have a disconnect with how reality. You said "if someone saw a flying object they couldn't identify then that means it was an unidentified flying object. you said "Sure, he probably thought he was a prophet from god but whether he really was, is a matter of belief". no its not, its a matter of fact or not fact. he either was or he wasn't".

    How many times have you seen people who swear they saw a UFO and it turned out to be the planet Venus, swamp guess, an experimental plane, etc. MOST of the sightings are like that, they are NOT UFOs. Yet, that didn't stop people from reporting and thinking that they were real UFOs did they? So why didn't people "just know" that what they saw is a fact or not a fact like you said?

    Regardless of what you said, most human beings DO make mistakes and scientists/experts are not always present with their equipment, to determine facts from fiction, anywhere and anytime.

  353. TGOBP

    Can you explain to me, now that your Pope has said that Evolution is accurate, and the Adam and Eve story is just that, a story, how do you justify your original sin doctrine? Without Eve eating from the Tree of Knowledge, you loose your whole justification on why we are supposedly 'born in sin'. Which is a foundation for your whole theology. Drop that, and your whole story falls down. How do you reconcile that?

  354. DarkSpirit

    And each one is free to believe in whatever religious text in believes in. That includes Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Christianity, etc. If you think that they are stupid to believe in them then that your point of view. Both sides have no scientific basis and you certainly cannot claim to understand how supreme beings think better than anyone else anyway.

  355. TGOBP

    That's right, you've been talking about Christianity and scripture (yours), when the doco is about Islam. You cannot help but insert your BS into places it has no place. There are plenty of Creationism and Christian doco's here, but you come here to preach your BS. How very typically Christian of you.

  356. TGOBP

    Hmm, why then the different interpretations? If it is so accurate, word for word, meaning for meaning, why is there Sunni and Shiite? EVEN IF you could prove it's been accurately transmitted, that has absolutely no bearing on the truth of it. None what-so-ever. You are free to believe in magical BS if you wish, you're not free to impose that on everyone else.

  357. TGOBP

    No it is not the same. You know if you have a brother or father. You 'believe' Mohammad was something special. Being insulted because your illogical beliefs are critisized for the dangerous stupidity it is, is anther form of illogical thinking.

  358. TGOBP

    Learn definitions. Anything flying, that isn't identified by the person observing it, is a UFO by definition. Once it's shown it was Venus etc, it no longer is a UFO. Your argument is just stup1d. Jack is correct, you don't have the mental capacity to debate him. WTF does your first sentence even mean, "You seem to have a disconnect with how reality." How reality what? Works? You have a disconnect with how logical thinking works, or how definition of words work. Trust you to go to UFO's, DarkSpirit, ShadowSpirit, DarkShadow or whatever name you're currently using.

  359. TGOBP

    Not when they use the scriptures as their justification they're not.

  360. TGOBP

    You can cower to threats all you like. I refuse to live like a coward. Hiding from a bully doesn't work, standing up to them does.

  361. TGOBP

    Stating facts about religious beliefs is not attacking whatever fool believes them. You can call my family whatever you wish, when I know you're full of sh1t I don't care what your opinion is. If Muslims really believed their BS, it should be up to Allah to punish infidels.

  362. TGOBP

    Yes, that is correct. The number of Catholics in the world quoted by the Catholic Church is about all people that were baptised by them, NOT the number that go to Church or fully believe. Splashing some water on your forehead when you are a baby does not mean you are theirs forever at all.

  363. TGOBP

    And with that post you describe exactly why religion poisons everything. Culture does not rely on religion, religion imposes itself into culture. Using the BS justification they are 'gods' wishes.

  364. TGOBP

    So much wrong in that post. NO, no one will ever prove a negative... that is why the burden of proof lies with the one making the assertion. No one can 'prove' a god doesn't exist, just like they can't prove a flying spaghetti monster doesn't.

    It's not up to people to prove absurd old claims are incorrect.

    That is exactly why science requires evidence and logic that is testable. It can't be applied otherwise.

    A lack of belief in something is NOT a religion. Look up the definitions.

    You've fallen for a fallacious attempt by religion to taint a non-acceptance of their assertions as a religion in itself, in an attempt to justify themselves. To somehow make out they are on a par with each other. The exact same tactic the ID proponents are now attempting to do.

  365. TGOBP

    Wrong. You say all Muslims of the western world have publicly condemned these acts. No, they haven't, that is the problem.

  366. TGOBP

    Actually, I have seen more than one picture of western Muslims holding signs saying "Behead those who insult Islam" or another such version. How is that protesting against ignorant, barbaric behaviour again?

  367. TGOBP

    And therefore you are barking up the wrong tree with Jackmax, as he condemns all aggressive religious beliefs equally.
    Please explain how being from New York somehow gives you an insight others cannot have?
    And btw, Jackmax isn't from the USA, assume BS often do you? Might want to re-think your absurd rant. Or not, stay ignorant if you wish.

  368. TGOBP

    You're only half right, BOTH encourage horrific acts if you're honest about it.

  369. TGOBP

    Arguing degrees of wrongness is absurd. They're both wrong when they promote horrific acts. What is hard to see about that?

  370. TGOBP

    It's sadly amusing watching you talk about 'facts' while trying to defend 'beliefs'. Fact.. 'worse than most' does not mean 'the worst'. In fact it directly implies there is others that are worse..

    Learn to actually read what is written rather then apply your theologic BS to change it to mean what you wish. That's a bad habit you've picked up from religion.

  371. TGOBP

    Because Russell Brand is a self-serving, drug-fked twit who chases what he thinks will satisfy his 'look at me' personality. He may be talking sense on an issue, but there are others much more worthy of hearing it from, that haven't fked their head with drugs and can make a point without it somehow being linked to an attempt at self-advertising. In short, Brand is an id1ot that has little more to offer other than 'look at me'.

  372. TGOBP

    Do you understand that Indonesia is NOT part of Africa? All you've done is argue it's a religious practice... which is not disputed. You don't seem to realise your argument defeats itself. Saying 'some of them do it too' is not justification, despite your absurd efforts at doing so.

  373. TGOBP

    "Someone should do a documentary of Extremist Christians." WTF are you on about, there are plenty of them. Have a look around TDF for starters. Instead of finding others to point the finger at, have a look in the mirror first.

  374. AbdulKSA

    Brother you just have to read the Qur'an with an open mind. In the Qur'an Allah tells us all about Him. He tells about us.He tells us best for us.He gives us guidance on how to live our life. He tells us about how He began creation, about life after death, etc. If you are a true seeker of knowledge please try to obtain an English translation of the Qur'an.

  375. AbdulKSA

    Do you realize that Allah send about 125,000 Prophets and Messengers throughout time and even the Great Prophets you've just mentioned told us that the final Prophet and messenger to come would be Ahmed(Mohammad). Realize that the Bible was not revealed in English. Also Musa and Isa were sent to the Children of Israel, and not to all of humanity.

  376. AbdulKSA

    The Qur'an was revealed from Allah to Muhammad via the Angel Jibreel the same Angel who transmitted the other Holy books to the other Messengers. Oh, and next time please try to respond with some intelligence.

  377. Fabien L'Amour

    Please provide a proven written reference from the bible that the Great Prophets I mentioned said Ahmed would be the final prophet.

  378. GetCheckedNow

    Who said anything about imposing my beliefs on anyone else? LOL.

    Word for word, the Quran in Arabic is identical. That's how the message is preserved. Not only in print, but by millions of people worldwide who memorize it, word for word, syllable by syllable.

    As to interpretation, human nature does play a role. Just as you can have 10 eyewitnesses to a car accident and none of their reports will be accurate.

    That's why the hadith (stories with the chain of narration going all the way back to the time of the Prophet) are used to help clarify what people living during that time saw and heard the Prophet say and do. He is considered to have been a "living Quran", that everything he said and did exemplified God's message.

    It doesn't matter to me, honestly, whether anyone else believes what I believe. So long as no one hurts anyone else or interferes with others' rights, they are free to live their life as they please. Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, atheists, agnostics all have that same right.

    And we all have the right to believe that God will reward people for following God's commands, and punish people who violate God's commands. Spiritual rewards and punishments are for God to decide.

  379. GetCheckedNow

    I have no reason to try to impose my beliefs on anyone else. LOL.

    The original Quran in Arabic is identical, word for word, syllable for syllable, to the Quran of 1400 years ago. It was an oral tradition with few prints until mass printings began it modern times.

    Interpretations may have some variations due to human nature. Just as you can have 10 eyewitnesses to a car accident, and each one will report their version with different details, different perspectives.

    That's why there are stories (hadiths) to help clarify some parts of the Quran. Many people observed and listened to what the Prophet said & did, and relayed their stories - sometimes a few, or dozens, of people were there when the Prophet said or did something, so the stories might have minor variations as different witnesses passed on their observation to others.

    As I posted above, those stories were told & retold so the person listening would learn from the eye witness exactly what happened, and the eye witness would ensure the ones they told their story to had the story memorized precisely -- and those people would in turn teach others & ensure they had the story memorized, and so on down the line for 1400 years all the way to modern times. There are specific requirements to be "certified" to pass down the stories, though nowadays with mass printings, globalization etc there are many people "informally" passing along the hadith.

    The Prophet was the living Quran - one whose life exemplified the message of the Quran. It doesn't matter to me whether anyone else believes the same bc we are all free to choose our beliefs, our lifestyles - so long as we do not harm others or interfere with the rights of others.

    If I tried to force my belief on others, I would be in violation of Islamic tenets.

  380. GetCheckedNow

    In Islam, it is *always* wrong to force people to belief in Islam. By definition, to be Muslim a person must "willingly submit to God". No one can force someone to "willingly" submit to God.

    People who hurt others (mentally or physically), who torture, who maim, who kill - all of those people are violating God's commands.

    The only permissible reason to hurt another human being is if there is an imminent threat to your safety or life, or that of another person. If someone is trying to physically harm you or another person, you can physically harm them to protect yourself or that other person. That only applies to IMMEDIATE and IMMINENT threats - not to someone eg calling you on the phone to threaten you, writing a threatening note etc. Hmm... sounds like American law!

    Other than that, no person is allowed to hurt or kill another human being. No one is allowed to harm animals either, except compassionately for food, and even then the animal must be raised with kindness and respect, treated well, raised naturally (not caged, fed only its natural diet etc).

  381. GetCheckedNow

    Any Muslim who follows the request of some evil group to commit criminal acts is either truly ignorant of the teachings of Islam, or they are evil themselves.

    I would guess they aren't even Muslim, as a real Muslim would fear the wrath of God for killing ANY innocent human being!

  382. GetCheckedNow

    "Go down on your knees". As in prostrate to the lord, like Jesus did.

  383. GetCheckedNow

    There are no countries right now that follow Islam.

    There are some countries that follow *some* parts of Islam, but add their own twisted cultural traditions - much of which are in complete violation of Islam.

    And no, Saudi Arabia does not follow Islamic law. They follow some things, but other things are culture.

    I've lived in a country with majority of Muslims, and visited others as well, and the conditions in all were deplorable. Everywhere I looked I saw major violations of Islam, people going against Islam at every turn. And I'm not talking about their personal practices - what they wore, whether they prayed or whatever - those are personal choices. I'm talking about how they treated the poor, how they treated people of certain ethnicities etc. VERY unIslamic.

    But human nature is what it is. Islam came to protect the poor, the weak, the orphans, the widows, the less fortunate, as well as to promote equality amongst different tribes & races so no one would think they are superior due to their wealth, their family, their skin color etc.

    Unfortunately, the practice of true Islam - humility, kindness, compassion, respect, tolerance - is not very high, even in areas with large populations of Muslims.

  384. GetCheckedNow

    In reality, if the "radical" Muslims learned the truth about their religion, the small percentage (of the 1.6 billion Muslims worldwide) who commit evil, criminal acts would know they are violating Islam in every way, shape, and form.

    Then they would either stop, if they truly wanted to follow God, or everyone would recognize them for the evil criminals they are and known they aren't true Muslims.

  385. GetCheckedNow

    In Islam, the only time someone is allowed to hurt another person is to defend themselves, or another, in the face of immediate physical danger. And if that danger abates ie there is a truce or the other person is no longer a threat, Muslims must stop any attack. Very similar to American laws, actually.

    For a person who kills someone it's "as if they killed all of humanity". God will punish those criminals accordingly.

  386. GetCheckedNow

    Islam had the same message as Judaism and Christianity. Islam - peace through willing submission to God - started with Prophet Adam.

    The most important aspect of the message is that the is ONE God, one Creator of the universe and mankind, and all living things.

    That is the essence of the message of all the Abrahamic religions.

    So yes, same God, same message.

    The Torah was sent through Moses. The Bible was sent through Jesus, who said "I came to confirm the Torah".

    Eg all Jews, Christians and Muslims are not supposed to eat pork, and can only eat meat of vegetarian animals (cows, sheep, chickens etc) slaughtered in the name of God as God proscribes. Jesus was a Jew who confirmed the teachings of the Torah, so the people who followed Jesus followed the same dietary laws. Muslims too.

    Jesus "fell to his knees" in prostration to God, just as Muslims do now.

  387. DarkSpirit

    I have known Christians who burn non-believers at the stake.

  388. GetCheckedNow

    What scripture actually teaches, and how human nature corrupts those teachings, are two separate things.

    Human beings will rationalize evil behavior however they can, including using scripture. Human beings rationalize greed, lustful behavior, arrogance and countless ways of harming others - however they can, including using scripture.

    That does not make scripture wrong.

  389. DarkSpirit

    If you can't prove a negative then how can you claim that Mohammad must be wrong?

    Define absurd. I remember a time when Europeans think that the Earth was flat and that was the accepted science at that time.

    Sure do you know how pathetic our science is compared to what is out there in the universe?

    If you have something to prove than prove it, stop abusing your limited scientific to claim that superior technological beings can never ever exist because Science doesn't know about them.

  390. DarkSpirit

    I disagree, religion and culture has inter-woven into each other. The dress code of Muslim ladies is an example where culture and religion are one and the same.

  391. DarkSpirit

    But insulting them is attacking them. Just because you are being tolerated when you heap insults at some races doesn't imply that no one would beat you up one day. You reap what you sow.

  392. GetCheckedNow

    There is only one Quran (it's only the Quran if it's the original Arabic - everything else is a "translation" or "interpretation"). It's the same Quran, word for word, syllable for syllable, as was revealed 1400 years ago.

    The shia separation started AFTER the Prophet was gone. It began with a dispute over who should lead the Muslims after the death of the Prophet. The majority believed the companions should elect the one they felt was most qualified, so they did so and he became the next leader.

    A small group felt the next leader should be blood relative of the Prophet, his cousin, purely because of the blood ties. (and in turn future leaders would be blood relatives)

    Sunnis believe there is no "privileged" position just because of one's family, that people should not be considered spiritually superior just bc of blood ties.

    The small group split off and would not accept the leadership of the elected leader, so they appointed their own imams to lead them. Differences in religious opinions grew from that as the shia rejected the teachings/rulings of those companions who supported the sunni leaders. That rejection changed some of the religious practices that are based in part on what those companions said & did.

    But Shia and Sunni they have the same exact Quran.

  393. DarkSpirit

    Then you are just being foolhardy by refusing to look at the big picture.

  394. DarkSpirit

    Then you obviously have not learnt how to read. What is a fact?

    If you and jack seem to know what facts are then let me you, was there a UFO crash back in Roswell or was it a weather balloon? Who was stating the fact, the government or the eye witness?

    In the same way, if Mohammad claims to have met an angel, were you there to verify that he did not?

  395. GetCheckedNow

    If someone says they are Muslim, other Muslims are not allowed to deny that - it is a matter between God and every individual.

    However, knowing that Islam FORBIDS certain things such as killing, or hurting, others (except when defending yourself or another from immediate physical self), anyone who understands Islam knows right off the bat that ISIS is anti-Islam.

    ISIS is the antithesis of Islam.

    So it is no surprise that ISIS is being exposed as being led by someone who is not Muslim. (videos explaining that are all over "ISIS exposed"

  396. DarkSpirit

    You don't even what you are talking about and you are spitting out as many illogical flames as you can just to insult anyone who disagrees with you.

  397. GetCheckedNow

    Female genital mutilation is something predominant in African culture - Christians too - and predates Islam.

    In Islam, females are allowed and ENCOURAGED to have sexual pleasure with their husbands.

    FGM is completely against Islamic teachings, not just bc of that, but because the way it's being done in some regions causes great pain, can lead to serious illness, and completely blocks natural procreation - which is hugely important in Islam.

  398. GetCheckedNow

    Good point. :)

  399. jackmax

    You have made quite a statement about Islam and the dos and don'ts however you seem to neglect to mention the actual text of the Quran and the fact that it has over 109 verses that condone violent acts, and many of them actually express the message that violence is required if some don't fold to the pressure to either stay or become a part of this religion.

  400. jackmax

    Could you provide any evidence that Angels are real and not like any of the "gods" that you religees have tried to pass off as real.

    That's right you can't because of the same reasons that there is no "god" as it is at best just a fairytale.

  401. jackmax

    yet you seem to forget that most of the violent acts you will find written in Islam's book of lie. (Quran)

  402. jackmax

    I have read your book of lies and although it does promote peace and good will to others that have the same beliefs, there are over 109 verses where violence and inhuman acts are condoned and actually instigated. I except that most that have belief in Islam are no different than all others except for their belief of another outdated religion.
    But as we know they are not the biggest problem it is the extremists and the teachings of some radical Mofties and there brainwashing of the young into thinking that killing infidal is required for them to enter the imaginary heaven that all religions seem to worship.

  403. jackmax

    I would like to see some evidence of that....

  404. jackmax

    So everything that is written in the Koran that entices violent acts are misunderstood?

  405. Guest

    Voysey The Voice

  406. DigiWongaDude

    A very good piece. If you want to talk about Islam you can do so quite well from this starting point:

    Q: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
    A: Then He is not omnipotent.

    Q: Is He able but not willing?
    A: Then He is malevolent.

    Q: Is God both able and willing?
    A: Then whence cometh evil?

    Q: Is He neither able nor willing?
    A: Then why call Him God?

    - Epicurus 341-271 BCE (taken from "A History of Disbelief (2004)" here on TDF).

    ...interesting then that ALL western religions later lay claim to know a "personal God", his teachings and his will, through various books and prophets, oblivious to the trap Epicurus showed us: talking in absolutes is a tricky business, and often leads to unwanted or unexpected consequences.

    So to me Islam (and the others) manifest as the unforeseen yet inevitable outcome we see today, which arose from the appealing invention of a personal, caring supreme entity, to unite us and, further, control a population. Something which we now see as outdated, out of control and virtually impossible to deal with peacefully.

    Check out this short on Youtube "Science saved my soul" (user Philhellenes). Quite remarkable and good perspective for this very topic.

  407. TGOBP

    Ever spoken to a woman that has had it done, and is about to have her daughter done? I have. You know what her reasons were for having her daughter done, even though she didn't want to? Fear. Fear of the reprisal from the Islamic law she lived under. If it is an African culture, and nothing to do with Islam, then explain why Indonesia has taken up the practice? Explain why even in Western countries it happens, and is exclusively practiced by the Muslim communities there?

  408. TGOBP

    Ok, go ahead, point them out, if you can. I am open to changing my mind if presented with a logically sound argument with supporting evidence. Something I've never read you even come close to doing, whichever incarnation you're using at the time.

  409. TGOBP

    You would greatly benefit from some dictionary use. Fact- a thing that is known to be true, is proven accurate. As you and I and I presume Jack were not at Roswell, we have no way of knowing what is 'fact' or not about that. I cannot answer your silly question.
    How do you know what Mohammad claimed, did you speak to him? No. So you have to trust that the authors, who we know some didn't speak to him also, are not only being honest, but 'knew' what they were saying is true. Trust and fact, different thing. Once more, I refer you to the definitions of the words.

  410. TGOBP

    And you display your cowardice by allowing yourself to be dictated to.

  411. TGOBP

    Thank you, your post proved my point. It is whatever people make it to be, and therefore is obviously not the words of an omnipresent deity.

  412. TGOBP

    Lol, race has nothing to do with it. Once more, go learn some definitions. You may begin to make more sense if you understand what the words you use actually mean.

  413. TGOBP

    The dress code of Muslim women is a good example of how religion has imposed itself on culture. Take Egypt as an example, I have lived there. Some women wore the full 'batman' get up, some were more relaxed and only wore the head scarf. Much of the culture of Egypt was changed when Islam entered. Egypt used to be quite progressive for women's rights until Islam imposed it's views on women. A culture of fairness between the sexes was changed to the oppressive thing it is now, and not because the women there wanted it.

  414. TGOBP

    Disproving an assertion is not proving a negative. Yet again, you badly need to work on your understanding of what words mean. Easy to show the Qu'ran, attributed to Mohammad, cannot be what it is claimed to be. It makes statements about the earth and sky that is now proven to be incorrect. Amusing you brought up a flat earth next actually. That in itself proves at least some of the claims in the Qu'ran are incorrect. Now, because it is claimed the Qu'ran is the inerrant word of an all-knowing deity, it only takes one assertion to be proven wrong to disprove that 'inerrant' claim. Which a non-flat earth does quite adequately.

    Amusing question you have next. As we don't know the total of 'what is out there', all we can know at this point is we don't know everything. Exactly how much do we know? We can't quantify it unless we know how much the total is. Your post implies you do. So go ahead, what % do we 'not know' at the moment?

    Your last point doesn't make sense the way you wrote it, and is flat out wrong the part that does. What does "stop abusing your limited scientific to claim that superior
    technological beings can never ever exist because Science doesn't know
    about them." even mean?
    And no, I've never claimed what you say I do. I have never said it is impossible, I've just said there is no convincing evidence shown to date that it is. You're the one that claims they are, so the burden of proof lies with you, not me. Nice try.

  415. TGOBP

    No, the inerrant claim coupled with the incorrect claims within scriptures make them wrong. The balance of good things v's what is considered bad things done, as well as the blatant dishonest claims within, make religion an overall negative now to our species. They were useful at a time, that time has past.

  416. TGOBP

    Thus adding to my point that religion as a whole is a negative to us. Thank you.

  417. TGOBP

    Lol, so easy to disprove many of your claims. Please explain how Moses was able to write about his own death and funeral?
    'The Bible', is the Old and New Testament. Jesus authored none of it.
    You don't know what he said, you're going on a book that we now can prove has multiple false claims. Hardly the 'inerrant' word of an omnipresent deity. Unless they're deliberate lies of course.
    Most decent people will admit that the Bible and Qu'ran both contain some very horrific ideas and commands. You are free to 'willingly submit' to that sort of horrific, blatantly incorrect scripture all you like. I don't, and won't, worship such horrific nonsense.

  418. TGOBP

    "Islam came to protect the poor, the weak, the orphans, the widows, the less forunate, as well as to promote equality..."

    Then please explain the whole concept of 'infidel'. And what your Qu'ran says about how to treat them. And then the position on apostasy. Death penalty for leaving the 'faith'.

    Your whole post is an yet one more example of the No True Scotsman fallacy. As is the norm from your apologetics.

  419. TGOBP

    Are you free to judge others? You did in another post to me where you went on about how some are not 'real' muslims. You are not commanded to 'spread the word' ? You don't want Islam to become a world-wide religion?

  420. TGOBP

    What is the penalty for apostasy? You're full of sh1t. Get honest about your book of lies and what it encourages for a change.
    What was the reaction to Salman Rushdie? Self defense on "IMMEDIATE and IMMINENT threats" was it? Yeah, sure. Next you'll claim that wasn't a Muslim reaction....

  421. TGOBP

    What is the prescribed penalty for apostasy? End of your argument right there.

  422. TGOBP

    You don't know what Jesus did, only what is claimed by non-eyewitnesses decades or more after the fact.

  423. TGOBP

    And you know this how exactly?

  424. TGOBP

    'He' also tells us the world is flat, the sky is as a tent drawn above us, the Sun sets in a puddle of water. That you can fly to the Moon on a winged horse, and cut it in half with a sword.

    Having 'an open mind' does not mean believe all manner of nonsense, which is exactly your meaning.

  425. TGOBP

    Another use of the No True Scotsman fallacy, you apologist's favorite excuse.

  426. TGOBP

    You once more say Islam forbids killing... Once more, what is the penalty for apostasy?

    Lol. Your first paragraph says Muslims cannot deny other Muslims, that's 'god's' job. Then you proceed to do exactly that, deny ISIS.

    Not to mention you've denied in other posts to me any Muslim that doesn't follow your particular interpretation of the Qu'ran.

    Nice oxymoron.

  427. TGOBP

    BS. What is the penalty for apostasy?

  428. TGOBP

    Surprise surprise, the hadith says the Qu'ran is true. Now who would expect apologetics to claim one confirms the other. Accurate transmission or not, the Qu'ran contains assertions that we know for a fact are incorrect, thereby proving it is not the inerrant word of an omnipresent deity.

  429. TGOBP

    Hmm, so you think Mohammad is real, and not lying. Why are you not a Muslim then, if it's not lies?

  430. TGOBP

    I agree, its a pity stupidity can't be eliminated. Some refuse to learn anything other than what they've preconcluded is fact. You are a fine example of that, time and time again.

  431. TGOBP

    Unless you get a strong, illogical belief like religion to command them to, then it's on. You try pointing out the errors that are there, to any Muslim or Christian group and see if they care.
    They react as if the one pointing out the errors somehow is evil, purely because they can see errors and will not just be quite about problems they see with BS assertions.

    I'm not surprised you said you believe Mohammad is real and was telling the truth, you share that 'response without thought' mentality with them. It is weird though when one knows your unrealistic beliefs and assertions about UFO's. As you displayed in an earlier post, you don't even understand what you believe or what the terms mean. Yet you will willingly stay ignorant to the definitions, even after its pointed out to you. That is the only way you can maintain your untenable beliefs.

  432. TGOBP

    His post implies that. Unlike most 'believers' standpoint, it applies to ourselves too. As I said, I am open to being convinced my position is incorrect and will change my mind with sufficient evidence and reason. Are you?

  433. TGOBP

    Are you aware that not all scientists produce weapons? In fact, most don't. Do you really think a Biologist is going to be respected when he shows their claims about creation are incorrect? Lol, you are a dreamer mate.

  434. TGOBP

    So by your logic, Christian Egyptians can't have Egyptian culture. I have personal experience that you are wrong. A cursory look into Christian Egyptians disproves your position.

  435. TGOBP

    It makes sense until you see a beach... all the women are fully clothed still, even if they want to have a swim.

  436. TGOBP

    Tolerance does not mean pandering to. It does not mean education should be changed to suit incorrect beliefs, or laws giving special rights should apply. And no, a non-belief in something is not a religion. Otherwise we're mostly all a part of a religion against the tooth-fairy.

  437. TGOBP

    Not having an answer to something does not justify unproven beliefs, or inserting 'magic' in place of the unknowns. . It is not wrong to say, 'I don't know', if that is the truth.

  438. TGOBP

    And that is exactly why religion is becoming not relevant to an intelligent, informed world view.

  439. TGOBP

    Faith is no reason to believe nonsense. Faith, in the sense you're using it, means;

    a strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

    You can believe as hard as any religious person that the tooth-fairy is going to give you money, that has no bearing to the reality of it. Faith is the last resort of the lazy and weak minded. I'm not surprised you like it.

  440. TGOBP

    Hallucinations are becoming more understood, and at this point completely and adequately explain your stories.

  441. TGOBP

    Once more you shift the burden of proof to attempt to claim you're on a par with non-belief. Not believing in something that you can prove is incorrect, or that there is no compelling reason to accept, is not the same as stating you already know. They are not on a par at all. One is following the evidence where it leads, the other is predetermining where the evidence will take you, and requires ignoring or twisting evidence that doesn't agree.

    One has and will continue to get results in the real world. The other's claims have been shown to be wrong, time and time again, and serve to hold us back as a species.
    So no, they are not equal in strength of argument at all. And therefor don't deserve the same 'respect' that you claim.

  442. TGOBP

    Saying 'they're as bad as the others' is not an answer, or justification. I agree on your point, they're as dangerous as each other.

  443. TGOBP

    You are using a fallacy to make your argument. No True Scotsman is a fallacy, as is your point.

  444. TGOBP

    Whether Muslims are a victim or not has nothing to do with the religion condoning horrific actions. Your argument is logically flawed.

  445. TGOBP

    What is the penalty for apostasy in Islam? The correct answer destroys your argument.

  446. TGOBP

    Go find out if Islam wants to spread to the whole world or not. See if it is or isn't on their long-term agenda. Then start again.

  447. the silenced masses

    I know a number of Muslims and they, like the vast majority of Muslims, are peaceful people.

    Why don't you do some research into how much Islamic extremism is actually backed by America and the West. Both al Qaeda and ISIS are western creations with financing coming from Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Or research how the FBI is behind almost all domestic terrorist plots. There's a great book about that, "Inside the Terror Factory".

    Your problem is that you know absolutely nothing about the geopolitical history of the middle east and the influence of the west over that region.

    Also, keep in mind that the west has been overthrowing moderate governments in Islamic countries and backing brutal dictators in the region for many, many decades. Many of those one stable countries are now failed states and breeding grounds for extremism.

    The west has slaughtered over ten million Muslims over the last 5 decades and has helped oppress countless millions more. This was going on long before you ever heard of "Islamic terrorism", while you were still preoccupied with government propaganda about the global threat of communism. How convenient that a enemy suddenly appeared when the other was no longer a "threat".

    You are a perfect example of what happens to a person when they know nothing about history and learn everything you know from television. You become a pawn and mindless zombie believing every bit of propaganda they pump into your otherwise empty head

  448. TGOBP

    So you're saying it isn't the aim of Islam to convert everyone? Oh yes, everything wrong in the ME is the West's fault, I've heard that before, it was a constant theme in the papers in Egypt when I lived there. Cairo's sewage for one example, it was blamed on the British that the system was inadequate. No matter that the British actually built the system when there was none, and were long gone from their country. But no, that must be someone else's fault hey. Answer this then, what good is funding, if there is no one willing to use it? Are they all western people in ISIS? I know numerous western Muslims have gone to help them, a number of them from my country.

  449. TGOBP

    And can you explain, if it is all about peace, why does Hezbollah have an AK47 on their flag? What is that all about?

  450. jack

    and thats why everyone wants to live in muslim countries? you don't know who wrote the koran so you have every reason to believe it is just fiction. muhammad, and you know this full well, did want his teachings to exist beyond his lifetime otherwise he would have learned to write and written the koran himself. and then he would have created modern english and translated the arabic koran into english. then he would have created a computer and software to translate the koran into all the languages of the future and all languages that alien species billions of years more advanced than us could understand. maybe thats what the UFO phenomenon is about. aliens civilisations who can travel across space and time are coming here to the planet where the creator of the universe told an illiterate primate EXACTLY how to clean his urine hole before he gets on his knees and talks to his hands. makes so much sense now.. thank you. quick question? why do muslims believe in jesus when they know the bible is a forgery?

  451. the silenced masses

    Why not read my entire comment and try and process that information, instead falling back on your programed responses. As painful as it will be for you to wake up, it won't actually kill you

  452. TGOBP

    Yet again, what is the penalty for apostasy?

    Then explain how not believing is somehow an immediate threat?

    Or more relevant to you, what does your scriptures say about willfully misrepresenting things?

  453. jack

    they find lots of ways to see people as not "innocent". in almost all walks of life young males are rebellious against the authority. but not in islam. islam tells young men all they have to do is believe in the koran and then they will cum A LOT in paradise after they die. islam is a gynocentric vagina worshipping sex cult and is the exact opposite of MGTOW.

  454. the silenced masses

    There's nothing more ignorant than a fool who praises colonialism while refusing to acknowledge its brutal realities. What you are suggesting is that if the people had not been living under brutal colonial oppression, they still wouldn't have been capable of modern social advances.

    Again, this comes down to you ignorance of history. If you had a clue, you would know about the number of countries that attempted modern reform, only to be violently subdued by western forces when new social innovations threatened the status quo of western financial imperialism. You can find many such examples in Latin America, Africa and Asia.

    Trying to have a discussion with someone who has zero knowledge of history is impossible

  455. TGOBP

    I note your attempt at dodging the question asked of you. A tad troublesome for your position isn't it. Again, what use is funding if a 'peaceful people' are not willing to use it? Why does that flag have a gun on it?

    I'm not claiming the West is completely innocent. I hold pretty strong views against much of what has happened in recent history. You are claiming they are fully at fault, supply nothing to back up your position other than ad homenim, which is nothing, and somehow think that is a decent argument. Wrong.

  456. jack

    heres what an open mind looks like. who wrote the koran? why did humans believe in THOUSANDS of gods before god finally revealed himself to muhammad in cave? would you be muslim if you had been raised by white people in san francisco? why is everything promised in the after life only things that exist on earth? if paradise exists then why bother creating this BS solar system? heres your reality. your existence is merely one fraction of second as a bacteria on earth. deal with it and stop fantasising that you are special and important.

  457. jack

    allah is real because allah says he is real. E = mc(allah) fool !! get on your knees, talk to your hands and whisper gently to your palms for 80 years..then????? then you ask??? then..... virgins. and ive heard rumours that in paradise they now might have hymen restoration surgeons to "revirgin" the females in paradise who have somehow earned that afterlife in paradise. maybe they are sex robots from japan in the 2030s. who knows? allah does. doesnt even remind of the time, in the words of Big Papa Pump, "I CARE ABOUT TWO THINGS, MY FREAKS.. AND MY PEAKS". kinda like that exactly sometimes.

  458. TGOBP

    The ME has not been a stable region for over 2000 years, contrary to your assertions. And you're telling me to look at history, lol. The roots of the fighting started well before the US was even discovered by the West. Your 'scirptures', be it the Bible or Qu'ran say as much. So are you going to argue that they're wrong?

  459. the silenced masses

    Does the Westboro Baptist Church or the KKK represent all Christians? Seriously, how stupid are you?

    I'll answer that myself. Way too stupid for me to waste anymore time on

  460. TGOBP

    How did I praise colonialism? There is something worse, a fool who cannot comprehend what they're reading properly, and makes baseless assertions and assumptions about what they can't know. An outright liar too. AGAIN, what is the penalty for apostasy?
    I used an example I watched and read about, how the Egyptians blamed the British for their current sewage problems, when the poms were long gone. And you twist that to praising colonialism, lol. Nice try, but wrong.

  461. the silenced masses

    You truly are an ignorant human being. The exact same thing can be said about every single region on the planet, including Europe.

    Your problem is that you have zero understanding of the history of colonialism, which is still going on today. Spend some time doing research into the role the west has played in shaping the region of the middle east.

    I've wasted more than enough time on you.

  462. TGOBP

    So you're running away? lol. So, if that can be said about every region, how does that fit with your claim that the ME was stable before the West's intervention?
    Can you not see the contradiction?

    You don't know what I even think about colonialism, let alone my knowledge on the subject. You've assumed much though.

    Do you have anything other than ad homenim to add? If not, run away and bury your head in the sand if you wish. Or not, you don't bother me either way mate. You're not the first apologist to crack it with me. I find you amusing to be honest.

  463. DarkSpirit

    Prove that it is nonsense. We are talking about Islam right now, not the tooth fairy. Just because you call something nonsense doesn't imply that it is nonsense. It is ignorance that you don't believe in anything that you cannot see.

  464. DarkSpirit

    Yes if you claim that Mohammad lied then you have to prove that he did. You are, of course, free not to believe him or anyone else's claim but if you say someone is lying then you are obliged to prove that in public Otherwise, why should I believe you over him?

  465. TGOBP

    Easy. The Qu'ran states that the world is stretched out flat like a carpet, the mountains are like pegs to hold it down, and the sky is like a tent stretched out above us. The Sun sets into a puddle of water.

    We now know, through science, that is all false. Or in other words, nonsense. What I find ironic myself, at the time the Qu'ran was written the Greeks already knew the Earth was not flat, and had actually calculated (this was done in Egypt) the circumference to within about 200 miles of being accurate. That's pretty good when you think about it, and the method was clever. I'll let you enjoy finding out how they did that.

    As I've pointed out before, scripture claims to be the inerrant word of an all-knowing deity. Clearly this claim is wrong, and is therefore nonsense.

  466. TGOBP

    And I never said I didn't believe in anything I can't see. I can't see gravity, which is a Theory btw, but I believe in it.

  467. TGOBP

    I do consider someone claiming others think something they never said is not only a display of ignorance, but also intellectual dishonesty. I know from reading your BS previously this is not a problem for you, being dishonest. I've watched you do it... changing posts after the fact for one. ;)

  468. TGOBP

    I have no idea exactly what Mohammad said, no one does. We have what others CLAIM he said. Therein you can find dishonesty. The 'flat earth' claim of knowledge from a deity is clearly dishonest, whoever came up with that BS.

  469. DarkSpirit

    Then we go back to the point as to why you keep claiming that Mohammad is lying and that Islam is nonsense.

    Even in this modern world, if you publicly declare someone lied to the public, you are suppose to provide evidence to back up your claim. You can't claim this politician is lying or the pope is lying or that religious leader is lying and stop there.

    This conversation is not going anywhere when all you have is your word against his.

  470. jack

    to answer your first question directly. without getting into a philosophical linguistic debate over the word "fact" i will say that i use the word fact to mean that which is true.
    to answer your second question directly: did an unidentified flying object crash in roswell in 1947 or was it an unidentified flying weather balloon which is also an object? the FACT is, i know i don't know the answer to that question. maybe humans had flying saucers or maybe aliens fly around in weather balloons. if i were to claim to know that would be ridiculous unless i was involved with the flight of the object or its recovery.
    your third direct question is how can i know muhammad didnt meet angel from the bible in the year 610AD? i cant KNOW he didnt. main reason being i don't know what an angel is or looks like or how one is supposedly experienced. but no matter how much muslims say they "believe" in muhammad they are in the exact same position as me in terms of NOT KNOWING whether he met an angel or not. you said "whether he really was (a prophet), is a matter of belief?". whose belief? everyone on earth could believe the world is flat and it doesnt change the reality of it being round.

  471. TGOBP

    Did you not read my reply, or just not understand it?

  472. DarkSpirit

    If you say that someone is lying, then prove it. Otherwise why should we believe you over Mohammad?

    You can answer with flame posts or call me names but that is just not going to convince me that you are any more credible than Mohammad.

  473. TGOBP

    Ok, I'll put it this way. Do you think the world is flat? Do you think the Sun sets into a puddle of water every evening?

    If your answer is no, then you must agree that the Qu'ran is inaccurate, as that is what it states. That, or you'll have to do an apologetic's trick and use theology to try to change what is actually said.

  474. TGOBP

    I've never asked you to believe me. Believe the scientists, believe the pictures taken from space, believe because you can get a telescope and see for yourself, believe whatever credible evidence you like that shows the claims are incorrect.
    In fact, don't 'believe' anyone, let the evidence itself convince you.

  475. DarkSpirit

    That is the problem when you read everything literally instead of poetically.

    What I find ironic is the Greeks already knew the Earth was not flat, yet Europeans still thought that you can sail past the edge of the world, so much for your Science.

    Clearly? If I use the word, "Clearly", does this mean I don't have to prove what comes after it?

  476. TGOBP

    Well, when I used the word 'clearly', I did assume you had enough IQ to see for yourself. I stand corrected.

  477. DarkSpirit

    You have still failed to convince me that you are any more credible than Mohammad by calling me names. How old are you?

  478. TGOBP

    Hahahaha, explain to me how 'poetically' that means the opposite to what it says? Are you saying 'the sun sets in a puddle of water' somehow means we are on a planet that orbits the Sun, that revolves while it does so, and that is what it means? Get real.

  479. TGOBP

    I don't care, think what you like. That won't stop me correcting your BS when you say it publicly. If you want to believe the Sun sets in a puddle of water, the earth is flat and the sky like a tent pulled over us, that winged horses can fly someone to the moon to cut it in half with a sword, go ahead, go your hardest. But don't be surprised when you're called a nutter. That will often follow absurd assertions as those are.

  480. DarkSpirit

    Are you saying that a telescope is your best supreme being detection device? So if you look out with your telescope and you don't see a supreme being, then a supreme being
    does not exist? Are you expecting a supreme being to wave back to your telescope and shout back "Yoo Hoo! I am here!" if he does exist? Right...

  481. jack

    if you truly care about the UFO phenomenon i direct you to the french study "the cometa report" and to the "disclosure project" discussion. 95% of all flying objects that are witnessed that people cannot identify, turn out to be things like terrestrial aircraft and environmental phenomenons. however 100% of UFO sightings are unidentified until they are identified. a 3 year old who has never seen a helicopter before and then sees one flying in the sky is witnessing an unidentified flying object (UFO) from his perspective. is he witnessing alien technology. only if he is not an earthling. you brought up the UFO thing anyway

  482. TGOBP

    Really? Man, what is wrong with you? A telescope can prove we are are orbiting the sun, that the moon orbits us and is not 'cleaved in half'. Do you really think I meant I can't see 'god'? Facepalm.. lol.

  483. TGOBP

    You're obviously running out of straws to clutch at if that's all you have left. Lmao.

  484. DarkSpirit

    And you are obviously crazy if that is what you believe.

  485. TGOBP

    I'm crazy for believing we orbit the Sun? Hahah, ok, whatever, I guess your ET mates have told you different then. They MUST be right, hey. You are a funny one mate.

  486. DarkSpirit

    You are crazy if you think that a telescope is your best supreme being detection device.

    I don't know why I even bother to reply to your posts. Obviously kids have a lot more time to troll internet discussions than I do.

  487. TGOBP

    Still haven't clicked to who I am have ya, shadow? We've talked before, you know I'm not a child. ;)

  488. TGOBP

    An amusing argument tactic, I've not run into it in this form from an adult before. Argument from absolute absurdity. I have run into having words put in my mouth I've not said before. If you think a telescope can 'see god', or take it that way even after I explained what I meant, then it's no wonder you misunderstand many things.

  489. Fabien L'Amour

    Then how can a Muslim submit in good faith to a God that did the exact opposite? As far as I know, the people killed in the Noah flood weren't an IMMEDIATE and IMMINENT threat to Allah neither did Allah need the animals for food.

    Why does Allah impose these strict morale standards to humans but considers himself free to kill at will based on simple displease with humans and no reason at all for animals?

    Looks like Allah behaved just like the American government doing whatever he pleases above what is morale.

  490. TGOBP

    Are you drunk or high at the moment? Honest question.

  491. TGOBP

    And so how do you justify saying 'those muslims aren't real one's, but these one's are' ? Naughty boy, what is your punishment for assuming Allah's role?

  492. TGOBP

    Feels like a walk down a mentally insane ward doesn't it :)

  493. GetCheckedNow

    Muslims believe in the One God, creator of mankind, creator of the entire universe.

    God alone is in charge ultimately, though we do have free will, limited according to what God chooses.

    We as little human beings on this huge planet, in this vast universe, cannot see the big picture. We can only see things from our extremely limited perspective, for the iota of time that is our lifetime (as compared to all of history). There may be huge benefits in things that appear negative to us with our limited scope, just as their may be negatives in things we see as positive.

    So if God decides to kill off a group of people, we as humans don't know the "grand plan". We can't see what God sees, or know what God knows.

    God is always testing us. We are given his guidebooks (the Torah, the Bible, the Quran, and countless other messages sent by his Prophets throughout thousands of years). Then God leaves the rest to us. God will not punish people for not following his commands, if they were never taught.

    Human beings all die eventually. So should we demand that, if God were good, we should all live forever?

  494. GetCheckedNow

    There is no country in the word that follows Islam. Not even Saudi Arabia. They pick & choose a few Islamic things, then add their strange cultural traditions into the mix.

    Muslims believe in the Bible, and do believe in Jesus and the Virgin Mary. It's in the Quran (with an entire chapter devoted to Mary), just like Moses, Joseph, David, Abraham, all the way back to include Adam and Eve.

    As Christian theologians admit, some parts of the Bible have been changed. Very few, if any, people around the world know the original language (Aramaic) and much gets lost in translation, esp when it's translated into one language, then that translation is used to translate into other languages eg English.

  495. GetCheckedNow

    The language of the Quran was the language in Arabia at that time. Even now, most people in the Arab world do not speak the same Arabic as was spoken 1400 years ago.

    Languages are fluid and change over time. Meanings change.

    That's why to really understand the deeper meanings of the Quran, people have to study for years, decades. Yes, it would have been better if Muslims had worked harder to preserve the Quranic Arabic, and made more effort to teach each generation the correct Islamic teachings.

    (Kinda how Americans would be better off if they spend more effort teaching American history and the importance of our Constitution)

    Islam provides guidance to humans so we can live in healthier societies and live more positive lives. Humans often choose to ignore that guidance in favor of power, greed, lust etc.

  496. GetCheckedNow

    The response to Salman Rushdie SHOULD HAVE been... nothing. Those were words, and he has the right to his opinion.

    What humans do reflects on those specific individuals, not on the "rules" they are supposed to follow.

    If you are an atheist, or a Christian or something else, you should not be viewed negatively because of what some other atheist, or Christian, does or doesn't do.

  497. jackmax

    Another case of b*llshit from you if Islam provide guidance why is it that there are so many misguided muslims running around killing other in the name of islam.

  498. GetCheckedNow

    That's incorrect.

    The Quran tells the stories of the various battles. Yes, people are killed in battle. (But not anywhere near the numbers killed in modern battles!)

    I already explained elsewhere about the spies, hypocrites who pretended to be Muslim so they could spy and use the information to cause the injury, torture, and death of Muslims.

    Other than during war, no one is allowed to harm (let alone kill) another human being except in self defense when there is an immediate threat of harm.

    And even when in battle, if the enemy stops fighting the Muslims, the Muslims must stop as well.

  499. jackmax

    You my friend, have tried to paint the same picture as the christian try to paint their bible in yet you seem to forget the most important part and that is that man wrote all the scriptures and over the years the original text has been lost and the truth of what is written has been lost with it.

    You say other than war, no one is allowed to harm others. but what you don't except is that they are ragging war on others so your argument is void.
    Even with in your religion there are different sects that fight against each other so your book of peace has failed in conveying that message to it own followers.

  500. DigiWongaDude

    To use an analogy then, assuming god exists, we are like dogs on a leash with our "limited" free will? Yes? So ok, who is the dog walker? God? No, you just said he gives us books and then leaves the rest to us.

    ...so that must leave churches and god's holy men as the dog walker authorities, and they tell us how to behave and keep us from straying (mostly through threats and fear)... yeah that has a truthful ring to it.

    But by your very own reckoning, god has "allowed us" to see the glaring contradictions, barbarisms and falsehoods in those books and crimes, too numerous to count. Why on earth would god undermine those whom we are supposed to trust implicitly as godly, by letting us see a much, much bigger truth?

    Enter the need for the devil I guess?

    The only alternative is that your so called god wants to expose the fraud of those books and holy men for what they are and have done, freeing ourselves from the shackling dogma they teach.

    What say you to the bigger truth science, history and many other subjects has enlightened us with? God's will or not?

  501. jack

    so your position is that "real" islam is not in practice in the world and therefore should not be scrutinised when violent people show you what passage of the koran is inspiring their violent,cruel and evil actions before and after they commit such a deed? muslims shouldnt believe in the bible because they believe parts of it are fake and edit and mistranslated and wrong. how they can then point the "correct" bits they believe in makes no sense.

  502. jack

    when you help muslims defeat a tyrant in 1991 you are accused of "interfering in the muslim world" and they start a war with you and when you respond to their violent the muslims have such selective memory they choose to think that it wasn't them who started it. with muslims, logic never prevails.

  503. jack

    and they are also choosing to think people are attacking them just so they can feel justified committing their atrocities

  504. jack

    harry potter is a boy wizard who went to hogwarts where he learned magic spells and played quidditch. and ron is his friend you know

  505. jack

    the only thing islam did to be special was to claim " this is muhammad, the LAST prophet".

  506. jack

    maybe you don't know about the true true islam that we are talking about

  507. Achems_Razor

    Did you say HUGE planet? in the vastness of space our little blue planet in the far reaches of one spiral arm of the milky-way galaxy, we are in the suburbs so to speak. Our little planet is no more than a pixel, and us little carbon units are virtually invisible. Your gods made the universe? are you counting all the 10^500 other alternate universes also?

  508. GetCheckedNow

    We can't see the evidence of the future.

    But I hope to see evidence of that in the years to come as more highly qualified Muslim scholars are reaching out via Youtube, the internet in general, and mosques all over the world - teaching Muslims the meaning of the Quran and how the Prophet behaved (as he was "the living Quran").

  509. GetCheckedNow

    Huge in comparison to the size of a single human body.

    Small, of course, in comparison to the universe, and any and all alternate universes.

  510. GetCheckedNow

    Islam is a bit different than Christianity in that every individual has the ability to study the text (in the original Arabic) and not rely on scholars alone. That way, humans are not slaves to clergy, and clergy cannot mislead the masses so easily (unless the masses allow it, I suppose). Scholars are there to help teach us, though in modern times to be considered a credible, reputable scholar they would have to know classical Arabic of the Quran, plus had to have studied for many years, preferably decades, under reputable scholars.

    There is no "confession", as every individual deals directly with God. And every individual is accountable for their own actions. No one is accountable for any other person - there may be some responsibility if someone is misled, but the ultimate responsibility is on the individual ALONE.

    God is in charge of history, science ... well just everything. God gave us intellect and reason. God gives us passion to learn and grow. God gives humans the ability to study the stars, to create computers, to create cars, to create masterpieces of art. God gives us everything we need to achieve great things, to be great people. Then we need to use it, to do something about it.

  511. deliaruhe

    Is this yet another film out of the Ministry of Zionist Propaganda (euphemistically called Hasbara)?

    Maybe the Christians embracing this film should consult Christians like Michele Bachmann or Mike Huckabee or Rick Santorum to find out what real Christianity is about.

  512. GetCheckedNow

    A lot of Muslims aren't even literate or educated, let alone knowledgeable about the Quran. And sadly, many are unaware of their ignorance. Many are "muslim in name only" and don't really know about their own religion.

    It's like learning about the US Constitution. That was an amazing concept, with principles unheard of in the western world during that time period. Americans 200+ years ago learned it, knew it, understood the real principles laid out in the Constitution.
    But look around now. We still discuss the importance of the Constitution. We value it as a cornerstone of what is America.

    Yet how many Americans really know what's in the Constitution? How many have it memorized? How many understand all the discussions that were involved in creating the specific wording of the final form, to understand the true meaning of each provision?

    Probably very few. Walk around any American city and ask people. They probably can't even say how many Articles, how many Amendments, let alone discuss the intent of the Founders.

    America is a different country because of the ignorance surrounding the Constitution, even though it is supposed to be the Law of the Land.

  513. Achems_Razor

    You are making a claim that YOUR particular gods exist and made everything, the onus is on you to prove your claim, you have the burden of proof, and try not to shift your burden of proof, nor use circular logic.

  514. GetCheckedNow

    That's inaccurate info. Someone who kills another - except in self-defense when under immediate physical attack - should worry about punishment from God.

    Any Muslim who thinks otherwise is delusional.

  515. GetCheckedNow

    I know what the modern Bible says, and it just may be true.

    I believe the Quran is the truth, and it says in the Quran that Jesus worshipped God. So there is no reason for me to believe otherwise.

    You can choose to believe however you want.

  516. GetCheckedNow

    I've explained in several comments above, so forgive me if I make this shorter.

    Apostates during the time of the Prophet were people who PRETENDED to be Muslims in order to infiltrate the Muslim community. You know --> spies. They passed along information that caused great harm, torturing and death to Muslims. Once they "left" Islam, the Muslims realized they were traitors who never accepted Islam, that they had committed treason. The punishment for traitors in modern times is still death in many countries, including US.

    In modern times, if someone is raised as a Muslim but decides to convert to another religion, it's a personal decision. They are not (hopefully) pretending, in order to spy against Muslims and cause Muslims to be injured or killed. So there is no need to punish anyone. It's traitors, spies, who get the punishment. Or if someone is Christian, converts to Islam, then goes back to Christianity - who cares? it's their personal choice.

    (if you feel like scrolling, you can see my example above re China)

  517. GetCheckedNow

    The Quran tells many stories of what went on during that time period. It includes battles, and deaths on both sides. The Quran also includes limitations in war, such as not killing clergy, women, or children; not burning crops/trees etc, and requiring Muslims to STOP fighting if the other side stops.

  518. GetCheckedNow

    You misunderstand. (I somehow thought you would)

    I'm not denying that someone who is a known Muslim is "not Muslim" bc of their actions. (though by definition, a Muslim is someone who "willingly submits to God" and since God does not allow killing except in self-defense, well...)

    What I am saying is that people have uncovered the true identity of the "leader" of ISIS. He was never Muslim, and ISIS is not an Islamic group.

  519. Fabien L'Amour

    "Human beings all die eventually. So should we demand that, if God were good, we should all live forever?"

    Isn't the promise of eternal life in bliss the promise of Abrahamic religions? Why does god have to make innocent human beings and animals die a miserable death full of pain? Why would God need a rules book revealed to a chosen few when he can reveal his messages directly to all human beings without any intermediaries?

    The religious plan where conversion and teaching of the will of god is needed defies basic logic unless it's just another plan to exert control over humans by humans in need of power.

  520. GetCheckedNow

    There is no country in the world right now that follows Islamic law, no matter what they call it.

    They may incorporate some aspects of Islam, but often add some of their old cultural practices. It's very hard to get rid of the old traditions, esp when those in power can benefit from keeping some unIslamic traditions in place.

    There is a short scholarly article about female circumcision and Islam, at Minaret (dot) org. Just google: "Islam and female circumcision"

    (I learned something new there: that a Muslim woman has the right to divorce her husband if he doesn't give her sexual satisfaction)

  521. GetCheckedNow

    I have to copy and paste here to give my brain a rest. :D

    ****
    A book entitled Earth is a basic reference textbook in many universities around the world. One of its two authors is Professor Emeritus Frank Press. He was the Science Advisor to former US President Jimmy Carter, and for 12 years was the President of the National Academy of Sciences, Washington, DC. His book says that mountains have underlying roots.1 These roots are deeply embedded in the ground, thus, mountains have a shape like a peg (see figures 7, 8, and 9).

    (you can do a google search to get the references and see the diagrams in the textbook)

    Best scientist to learn about the Quran and science is Harun Yahya, a prominent Turkish scientist. He has a plethora of material at his website.

  522. TGOBP

    I am aware of exactly what you are talking about, I have debated that before. What is in those books is misrepresented by Islamic apologists. The fact that mountains have 'roots' that go deep, does not confirm that the Qu'ran is correct. 1 assertion, partly correct IF you try to interpret it a certain way, does not make the accompanying other 2 assertions correct. The mountains are not 'pegs' that hold the ground at all, plate tectonics has shown that to be incorrect. The earth is not flat, we know that. The sky is not pulled up over us like a tent, we know that. So trying to argue that it is inerrant because it 'kind've' got 1 right and 2 wrong is bogus.

  523. GetCheckedNow

    Ok, I've had many interesting discussions here in the comment section, but it's time for me to move on. If anyone wants to read what I have written, feel free to scroll down, but I don't plan to return to this page.
    Thank you to everyone who asked questions and made comments; I enjoyed responding and hope I've answered your questions.

    I hope and pray that any of you with an interest in Islam spend some time in prayer, letting go of everything and just asking God to guide you to do His will.

    Good night, and have a fantastic week! :)

    (EDIT to add: Excellent sources on Youtube, etc --> Yusuf Estes, former Christian preacher; Hamza Yusuf Hanson, former Greek Orthodox, child of civil rights/environmental activists; Nouman Ali Khan, raised Muslim, turned to atheism, then went back to Islam and became fluent in Arabic / Quranic Arabic. )

  524. Fabien L'Amour

    So in your opinion, God gave us the freedom to learn Arabic to have access to his teachings. Why does God prefer the Arabic language, why not reveal his teachings in all written languages via prophets in all nations? What so special about that patch of sand on our huge planet as you stated in another post?

  525. TGOBP

    A right is only useful if it can be applied. I find it very distasteful that you are trying to excuse FGM, and quite ludicrous that you think a woman can have normal sexual satisfaction after FGM. You should try talking to some that have had it done, see how they really feel about it.

  526. TGOBP

    Repeating the same error doesn't make it correct the 2nd time around. You say it's gods job to decide, then declare it yourself. That is still an oxymoron.
    I also note your failure to answer the question about the penalty for apostasy, and once more repeat your incorrect assertion that killing in self defense is the only killing that Islam condones.

  527. GetCheckedNow

    Just saw your post, so I tagged you in my last post (scroll to most recent comments).
    I've been commenting on here for days, so I'm done here.

    But just a brief reply (brief, because I am tired and have written a ton on this thread already):

    I don't have any burden to prove anything to you, or anyone. (Neither do you, by the way).

    I pass along the information I have, what I have been taught, what I have read, what I know, what I believe.

    You can choose to accept or deny, research further or not, or ignore everything altogether. That's the beauty of free will.

    Peace and blessings to you! :)

  528. TGOBP

    So you're claiming first that Islam has changed, it used to be ok to kill but now isn't.
    How does that fit with an 'unchanging, all-knowing deity' claim. It doesn't.
    It also doesn't fit with reality in the modern day. Sunni's killing Shiites and visa versa, google any recent car bombing for an example.

    Then you try to excuse it by saying most countries have a death penalty for treason. Which doesn't fit with your first assertion. A inerrant God isn't dependent on what is an accepted norm in China for example. Either 'he' condones it or not.

    (although that is evidence that it is not coming from some deity, but rather man)

    Your position is not tenable, it is not consistent.

  529. TGOBP

    It may be true? You need to learn more about the modern Bible then. We know for a fact that there is additions, changes and errors. Some research into Textual Criticism of the NT especially would teach you that 'it may be true' is inaccurate. Parts of it, yeah, for sure. The thing as a whole, no.

  530. Fabien L'Amour

    Take care and don't waste too much time praying for me. I'll let Allah know what I think if I ever meet him.

  531. TGOBP

    Except it wasn't a reaction by a scattered few Muslims. The fact a fatwa is involved (if one understands what a fatwa is) shows it was not a random group that responded. It was a ruling by a mufti. What is a mufti? Therein lies the problem with what you're claiming.

    I don't disagree with your sentiments, I agree with you. But the truth is not everyone feels that way. And they sure as sh1t didn't act that way.

  532. TGOBP

    Well it seems it works doesn't it. Look, they're bad over there, so that's ok for us now. All that means is they're both a bunch of hypocrites.

  533. jack

    what do you KNOW as a matter of fact i have to ask?

  534. jack

    but you say muslims believe the bible is partially true.. who reads it for them? we know, everything is god, even god. blah blah.. you sound like you are very devout in every and any religion.. most muslims don't read or speak arabic and there most certainly is a "clergy" in islam. all you got is "Muslims, most do the normal everyday non bad stuff most humans do, but they do it because of islam". thats your big selling point for islam. you know full well "god" has never communicated with you once. you know it. you may have felt emotions in your life but everyone does. that wasn't god. ask god right now "talk to me so i kNOW you are real" and you will hear nothing. i promise you, you will hear nothing..

  535. TGOBP

    Then your claims can easily be dismissed for what they really are, the baseless assertions from one that is already brainwashed into a particular way of thinking, that displays consistent use of logical fallacies to attempt to make it work.

  536. TGOBP

    That is not how Islam works in practice. What is a Mufti then. They are your version of what you call 'clergy'. You just don't like to admit that. A Christian would call their 'clergy' the exact same thing you call your Mufti.
    You can see how they have it wrong, but refuse to open your eyes to the exact same issues in Islam.

  537. TGOBP

    Being that Arabic can be quite open to interpretation, more so than correctly written English, it wouldn't be the best language at all. Funny how the people who have scriptures all think theirs is not only the most accurate, but also the ultimate 'word'. Then they have to apply Theology to make the words actually mean what they choose them to mean, NOT what they actually say.

  538. jack

    muslims find lots of ways to lie to themselves that they werent the ones who started the fight. see gaza

  539. jack

    it amazes me how GOD wanted humans to know his message so he had a book written by people who decades earlier knew a guy you said things that an angel said to him. and 1400 years later we have what we have with islam.. sounds like god is an idiot tbh. since that he made humans why didnt he just make it impossible for them to do the things he now forbids?

  540. jack

    this makes no sense when read alongside your comments about the koran is designed to be accessible to all and how islam cant have a corrupt clergy? islam will go straight to atheism in the most spectacular fashion... you are already booming an atheist just reading our replies teaching you things. in The Matrix, neo took the red pill.. you should take the red pill and wake up too

  541. TGOBP

    No, wrong. You show once more you make claims that are not accurate.

    The OT was authored in Hebrew.

    The NT was all authored in Greek. It is studied in the original language, and there is still massive problems with it in Greek. The translation issues exacerbate those already there, as well as introduce new problems.

    The basic problem with all scriptures is they all claim to be from some 'deity' and either will not or cannot supply any logical, reasonable evidence to support their claims. Same as you have failed to do.

  542. GetCheckedNow

    Ok, so getting to my last reply to you on this thread.

    There is no excuse for FGM. It is an abhorrent and dangerous practice, damaging to women not only physically but mentally and emotionally as well.

    The article I told you about explains, briefly, the historical context of FGM and Islam.

    Some old traditions had a "minor" skin cutting, and Islamic tenets tolerated the "minor" cutting for those cultures that were practicing it, so long as there was "no harm". Remember, in some cultures FGM and other practices (like placing coils around the neck to length the neck, placing holes In lower lips to insert things like ceramic type disks or pieces of wood etc) are "desired" by people in that community. Some women would insist on having FGM, feeling, due to their culture, they are less of a woman/wife without it. (I don't get that, but it is the belief of some! )

    As to harm: Pain = harm. Closing up any opening = harm. Forcing a woman = harm. Plus all of this could harm or kill a woman during childbirth, or harm or kill a baby during birth. All devastating, all potentially harmful/painful, and therefore it is a forbidden act.

    That's why modern Muslim scholars are trying to teach Muslims that it is not permissible, that it is harmful, esp the more horrific forms of FGM we are hearing of in recent news. (Muslims aren't even allowed to get tattoos or body piercings with a few exceptions like ears and nose)

    As to an earlier comment re apostasy - I addressed that in one of my replies to you, plus to other commenters.

    Alas, you are free to believe as you will.

    "To you your religion [or lack thereof], to me mine"

    I hope & pray you are healthy and happy, on this earth and in the hereafter.

  543. TGOBP

    Finally you got honest. "Alas, you are free to believe as you will"
    I am already aware that having everyone believe what you do is one of the main aims of your religion, it is a commonality between religions. Hence your 'alas'.

    I am aware there is more than one version of FGM, and I agree any form is flat out wrong.

    I disagree with your assertions about Islam trying to stamp it out. If it were, there would be an open announcement to all Muslims, that it is wrong. A fatwa would be declared that it is against the Qu'ran.
    But that is not what we've seen, or continue to see now is it?

    What part of culture in the UK for example, makes Muslims commit FGM there?

    No, much more was said about a cartoon than has ever been said against FGM. That there shows you where it sits with Islam as a whole.
    Your actions, or lack of, speak much louder than words.
    P.S Pray for me if you wish, it is your choice. IF by some miracle I die and find I'm face to face with 'Allah', first thing I'll do is punch the prick in the face for the suffering he lets occur. I want nothing to do with any deity as cruel and vindictive as is your god.

  544. TGOBP

    Yes, and guess where these illiterate people get their understanding from... the Mufti's you say have had to study for years to get it correct.

    How now does that fit in with your assertions that they have it wrong, when the very people you say have the correct knowledge is where they are getting their information from?

    It doesn't, because your position is incorrect.

  545. jackmax

    So you have been shown the errors of your thinking and arguments, so you put your tail between your legs and f*cked off.

  546. Fabien L'Amour

    Nope, if you had viewed the documentary, the author openly reveals his atheistic views.

    Consulting political figures to get information about a religion is probably the dumbest thing a person could do. At least in the documentary, we see and hear muslim preachers so their views can be considered as religious views.

  547. jackmax

    "part agnostic" what the ? how can you be part agnostic.you either believe in the magic man or you don't that like me saying I'm part lesbian because I only have sex with women.

    So are you telling us that after you return from being abducted by aliens you have come up with this rubbish that we were created?
    Rather than reading Sci-fi you should try and read some books on evolution and other actual scientific books so you might be able to comprehend how all things have evolved.

  548. TGOBP

    He should start with a dictionary so he knows what words mean. If you recall, he likes making up his own definitions, i.e UFO means ET flying machine only.

  549. TGOBP

    He had to go look for people that haven't been exposed to his kind of apologetics and can see the fallacy in his assertions, that he may have a chance of sucking in as he has been. It's a compulsion with them, their beliefs demand it. Notice his last appeal to stop thinking and just pray?
    At least he didn't try to say a banana was made specially for us. lol.

  550. jackmax

    If you were to read most of the comments, most here are non believers/atheist.

  551. AbdulKSA

    Can you tell me the name of the chapter you're talking about and the verse number? That's why non- Muslims cannot be an interpreter of the Qur'an,besides the fact that you don't know Arabic. Just like Christophor Columbus who thought the earth was flat .Just like you may think it's flat when you're walking down the street .If you go to the desert on a clear, moon-less night and gaze at the sky, the mansion of stars will seem like a canopy engulfing you. And the mountains are embedded deeply into the earth more the what is above the ground level. This shows the truth of the Qur'an because scientists have only recently discovered this fact. If the mountains were not constructed like this, than the earth would wobble and quake more often.And people would have trouble standing on its 'flat surface'.

  552. AbdulKSA

    Whether you die on land, sea, or in the air, on the Day of Judgement you body will be put back together to its very finger tips. See Qur'an chapter 75 entitled "The Rising of the Dead", verse 1-40.

  553. Fabien L'Amour

    So? Are you trying to convey that it's OK to kill people for religious reasons because a book written centuries ago says they will be put back together at some unknown point in the future?

  554. Shadowblur

    ....Wrong, APC: "Alien Piloted Craft" get your facts right once again! TGOBP definitely in need of psychiatric help and fast too!

  555. jackmax

    Wrong APC is an Armoured Personnel Carrier, so it would seem that you are the one that should get their facts right once again

  556. michael sullivan

    There is obviously something very wrong with Islam that has to be addressed.

  557. Aayankhan

    Grow up people, first get authentic information of Islam then talk on it. In one aspect of anything, it is not wise to describe in their own way.

  558. yvonne bowe

    I thought it was pretty spot on! Jesus (peace be upon him) even got a mention. Loved the point about taking offense. The men in the mosque in England all saying aye aye to stoning the adulterers and all the other nonsense in sharia was spot on. Wonder what Sharia says about an honest days work. Watch out for that one lads. Mohammad was illiterate, I actually remembering reading somewhere else and an embryologist. Astounding! Pretty good too. Real killer point was earthly rewards in paradise for a life of drudgery. Janey mac what a good video, really enjoyed and will be talking about Islam. Thank you.

  559. abe

    All divine faiths written books should not draw a divine figure or prophet of God because it is demeaning religion
    If you try to draw a picture of Jesus as you draw the Prophet Mohammed then maybe you'll understand it was not for any religion
    This is done in the name of God not because of Islam, not because of religion
    It is disrespectful to belittle the faith of Hansiim

  560. Jay Linn

    Why do we need to talk about Islam?? Isn't it obvious to everyone that Islam is a gangster religion? Mafia gangsters are not all violent. But the threat of violence is always there and they insist on getting their way - whether getting paid in protection money or not insulting their Mafia boss. Islam works in exactly the same way. Once people realize that Islam IS a gangster religion, most behavior of muslims will start to make sense.

  561. cdnski12

    Karl Marx commented ... "Religion is the opiate of the masses" ... never more accurate. Billions have been massacred due to religious beliefs and the persecution continues today.

  562. cdnski12

    marx commented ... "Religion is the Opiate of the Masses" ... Billions of Humans have been killed by religions & the killing continues today. So much for the "HUMAN" species.

  563. Ali sky

    Islam is a non wanted religion but also a free insulting religion so please watch it or u will face a defensive people who are good MUSLIMS!

  564. Michael

    I don't think the writer of the description could show much more contempt against the film without outright calling it a piece of racist garbage.

    Missed the point on every issue. I love how the writer thinks saying someone is bad is bad. Because we can criticize people up until they say they believe in something real hard, then criticizing them in any way is just bigoted and hateful.

  565. mike m

    if you have read down this far, the is no hope for you.
    you will burn in heck, what ever ur belief.

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