The Life of Muhammad

The Life of MuhammadIn a ground-breaking first for British television, this three-part series presented by Rageh Omaar charts the life of Muhammad, a man who - for the billion and half Muslims across the globe - is the messenger and final prophet of God.

The Seeker. In a journey that is both literal and historical, and beginning in Muhammad's birthplace of Mecca, Omaar investigates the Arabia Muhammad was born into - a world of tribal loyalties and polytheistic religion. Drawing on the expertise and comment of some of the world's leading academics and commentators on Islam, the programme examines Muhammad's first marriage to Khadijah and how he received the first of the revelations that had such a profound effect both on his life, and on the lives of those closest to him.

Holy Wars.Omaar assesses and shines a light on key events in Muhammad's life including the Night Journey to Jerusalem, his life threatening departure from Mecca, through to the establishment of the Constitution of Medina and the eight year war with the Meccan tribes.

Holy Peace. Omaar analyses and investigates key events during the later part of his life, including the introduction of a moral code known as Sharia and the concept of Jihad. The programme also explores Muhammad's use of marriage to build alliances, and looks at the key messages included in his final sermon.

In line with Islamic tradition the programme does not depict any images of the face of Muhammad, or feature any dramatic re-constructions of Muhammad's life.

This is just a preview. The full documentary is not available at this moment.

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297 Comments / User Reviews

  1. JAMIE THOMPSON-BOYLE

    part 1 is unwatchable. every couple of minutes, the film keeps jittering, sound goes then comes back slowly like an old reel to reel getting up to speed.
    you'll miss quite a few important points.
    ....same in part 2!!!
    .........and part 3!!!
    dissapointing upload :(

  2. Vlatko

    Fixed that @Jamie. Try again.

  3. anuragawasthi

    Whether you love to hate ir you hate to love,Muhammed will always remain the most controversial person of the Medieval Period................He was,is and will be an personality for many to draw inspiration and many would continue to despise him for what he did and what he preached.

  4. zantium2999

    great documentary!

  5. Islamicgirl55

    Amazing documentary! It's Ramadan Kareem and I am really enjoying watching this documentary. It was very well put together :)

  6. Guest

    Thnx for that. Nice timing with the holy month of Ramadan!

  7. Achems_Razor

    Trying to watch, so far very boring, weird what people will believe. All fairy tales to me. Religion is such a waste of...everything.

  8. e_pluribus_unum_USA_Motto

    He was a conquering General – an Empire builder. After he died the Koran and Hadith’s were written from memory by many different men.

    The whole religion has the same falsehoods that all REVEALED religions have.

    At least we can be somewhat sure he existed - unlike the man Jesus
    Revelation to one is hearsay to ALL others. It has no authority.

  9. Sieben Stern

    I just had a thought:

    Religion is like a Big Mac. Yes, a McDonald's Big Mac.

    The adverts show it as a virtual feast, plump, juicy, crisp veg, on a fluffy bun, completely perfect, made just for you, and to make your life complete. You can get it at a nice place where your friends meet, socialize, and hang out - where the employees are only too happy to serve you.

    However when you buy it, it's a mushed up late term abortion that few animals would recognize as food. It's been under bright warming lights at least since morning and looks like someone impressed their glutes on it. The restaurant is dirty and the employees are mindless wage slaves - and whatever you do, don't look in the bathroom or the kitchen!

    That and if you eat it all the time it'll kill you. XD

  10. adilrye

    ...I've never had a Big Mac that looked like someone sat on it in my life...what McDonald's are you eating at?

    lol

  11. Iain Nicoll

    nice analogy. i've experienced the big mac but never the religion...think i'll keep it that way

  12. adilrye

    Great and interesting documentary.

    Plus, it's in beautiful HD...can't argue with that!

  13. Justin_Funski

    If muhammad had lived today he could have received proper anti-psychotic medication and saved the world from his mental disorder.

  14. Guest

    And in Christianity they ask if you want "fries" with that.

  15. Achems_Razor

    Yes, and in USA and Canada they up-sell to would you like "big fries" with that?

  16. fhade

    If you have a particular faith or religion, that is good. But you can survive without it.
    Dalai Lama

    The ultimate authority must always rest with the individual's own reason and critical analysis.
    Dalai Lama

  17. John Gros

    Mohammeds first marriage does not show respect to women in Islam. She was a wealthy woman, he wanted money, she wanted a man, and by marrying him she retains the profits he made on that first transaction and all future transactions. Its a common business tactic. Money transcends all social stigmas. Bachi baza is for the enjoyment of the rich. Everyone knows it is wrong, but the rich have access to anything they want. Mohammeds first wife broke social norms for money, and so did Mohammed. That is not a moral win for the prophet.

  18. FranYule

    It is sad to realise that all religions begin simply as spiritual pathways to the Higher Self - God, Allah, what/who ever a person chooses to call it - only to be degraded by the few who see it as an expressway to exercising control over the aspirants. Whether it is Islam, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, or Judaism all are corrupted to suit the privileged few. Believing in science or religion comes to the same crossroads - it is still a belief system and inherently must have rules... humans are a sad lot, really!

  19. Heather Wade

    All I know about him is the kitty cat story. Muhammed was hanging out on a blanket with a cat, and the cat curled up and fell asleep on his sleeve. Muhammed wanted to get up, but rather than disturb kitty's sleep, he cut off his sleeve. Also, so the legend goes, tabbies have the 'M' on their forehead from Muhammed petting them there.

    I'm excited to see this, I've always wanted to learn more about a guy so many people love.

  20. Heather Wade

    How is Buddhism corrupted to suit the priveleged few?

  21. adilrye

    I think what they're saying is that at the time, for a woman (let alone a woman older than her prospective husband) to ask a man to marry her, and the man accepting, showed some surprising humility on the part of both of them. I'm assuming even in pre-Islamic Arabia, a woman didn't ask a man to marry her, he asked her, and it usually wasn't even them doing the proposing, especially without the consent of the tribe, clan or parents. All marriages back then were essentially business transactions or political alliance builders...in the West, it was only until the late Middle Ages where the concept of a marriage for "love" was even considered.

  22. Guest

    Thnx for proving that anti-islam propaganda works so great that everybody who gave u a like never bothered to criticize or question ur behaviour a bit. If I had written a comment for islam or arab civilization, there would have been an army around here preaching me how wrong I am, while nobody cares if someone is mocking others holy figures. This is not what freedom of speech is all about. Freedom of speech condemns hate-speech.

  23. Achems_Razor

    Science is a belief system?? And how is science corrupted to suit the privileged few?? we are all privileged when everything we basically do is because of science, even going to the bathroom, instead of course is if you have an outhouse, Hmmm?

  24. Guest

    No, Quran was written already by the prophets disciples when mohammad was alive. After his dead, it was assembled by third Caliph Othman and its copies distributed to known muslim empire.

  25. Shirl Oehler-Ali

    amazing

  26. adilrye

    Welcome to TDF. Not a very balanced site, as you can probably tell.

  27. Achems_Razor

    No thanks, nothing for me to learn, went through all that with a lot of islamic posters already trying to hammer their religion into my brain over the past three years on TDF. The same with Christians, Scientologists, JW's and one Mormon.

    A person needs a "god chip" in the brain to follow or believe in any religion, which I definitely do not have.

    No use to give me any links, just ain't interested.
    Religee's always try so hard to push their religions, why is that? What are you so scared of?

  28. Bill

    Considering the history of religions in general, the brutality, the torture, the slaughter, how can anyone believe that following any of them is a good thing? If we, humanity, are considered the crown jewel of Gods creations, then what does that say about the creator? If we are in fact created in Gods image then God cannot be any better than we are. I am inclined to believe that God was created in our image instead of the other way around, that would certainly explain things much better.

  29. FranYule

    If you choose to believe science is a truer way to human advancement then it's a belief system. It is no less an ideology just because it comes under the nomenclature of science. As for the corruption - don't have to look very far to see it - if you need it specified let's start with corporate scientists

  30. FranYule

    Since I can't quantify my inclusion of Buddhism I lose my credibility. My apologies to Buddhists everywhere.

  31. Guest

    In the Southern U.S., they don't even bother asking: They just dump them all over your head, straight out of the grease, and yell "Hallelujah!"

  32. Guest

    That's absolutely right. Romantic love is a relatively new concept, which is sometimes forgotten in the study of history.

  33. avd420

    I agree that belief is required in science, belief and trust, because if we didn't believe and investigated every scientific claim ourselves we wouldn't have much time for anything else.

    The difference is the AMOUNTof belief required. The more faith it takes for me to believe in a claim, the less inclined I am to believe it. While science does require belief, it requires VERY LITTLE faith.

  34. Sieben Stern

    I haven't eaten at McDonalds since I was a child - and I've never seen them make a burger that didn't look like it was 10 days old and kept warm 'tween the cheeks... XD you must live in a good place for big macs!

  35. Sieben Stern

    You are a very lucky man, you! :3
    Raised catholic, I was - deconverted at a young age.

  36. Sieben Stern

    I've read that he was having seizures and that's what caused his hearing voices and having visions.

  37. Sieben Stern

    How can I criticize Dead_Head, what he said is true. We deal with people who exhibit delusions of grandeur, especially religious ones, differently than in the past.

    It has nothing to do with his behaviour [sic], it's just a fact. Something religious people have a lot of trouble with.

  38. Sieben Stern

    Lord forbid the morality preachers should be moral! Ted haggard shouldn't be expected not to sleep with male prostitutes while crusading against gays - and jesus drink out of a gold chalice.

    It puzzles me how religion has managed to survive the disease of its own corruption and hypocrisy!

  39. TheSatyaYuga

    'Revelation to one is hearsay to ALL others. It has no authority.'

    Obviously...Its just these revelations have become more influential down the years and are now dogmatic teachings embedded within various cultures around the world.

  40. Sieben Stern

    @ franYule - WROOONG! It won't let me tier to reply to you, but science has nothing to do with belief. if you think that you don't understand the scientific process or the purpose of science.

    Science is about what IS. not about what we want or think it to be.

  41. TheSatyaYuga

    I'm seriously tired with all the generic atheist comments found below anything remotely religious. 'it’s all fairy tales', 'wow people believe this', ‘religion is no good, look at all the atrocities committed in its name’ Don't you have something more thought provoking to add? You're beginning to sound like the very ones whom you mock, spouting the same old lines again and again. Anyway, fascinating documentary.

  42. avd420

    @Stern

    You're right. But I think Fran was refering to us who have to believe in the claims science makes. I hope that's what Fran meant anyway.

    And I agree with you, if we don't believe in what IS, that doesn't stop it from being true. It just means we don't believe it to be. I've said this before but I think it makes the point clear; believing 2+2=5 doesn't make it so.

  43. Meh66

    Well, the important thing is that you've found a way to feel superior to both.

  44. Yavanna

    Best comment I`ve read in a long time! Cuts right to the Jib!

  45. Mad

    Did not watch all three parts but judging by the first part alone I can't help but feel the BBC's extreme bias against Islam. It seems to me they were trying to associate Muhammad with extremism, this is unacceptable IMO. Can you imagine if BBC or PBS made a documentary about the Jewish religion that tried to portray them in a controversial manner and associate all of Judaism with the extremists that blew up the king David hotel? I feel it was ESPECIALLY unnecessary to put the 9/11 attacks in a documentary about the prophet Muhammad. I mean its like mentioning this Breviek guy from Norway or the WTC after McVeigh's attacks (or other Christian terrorist incidents) in a documentary about Jesus. I am somewhat disgusted, however interesting the history is I feel it is a bit bias and would be considered UNACCEPTABLE had this been about any other religion. I am not religious but I respect people's views and do not seek to trash ones beliefs simply based off some crap I've watched in a documentary. A documentary about Christians or Jews this biased would be called antisemitic or just plain distasteful. Note to all atheists: You cannot scientifically prove there was no Muhammad, just like you will never be able to disprove the existence of Allah. That is why the scientific position to take is to be an Agnostic.

  46. avd420

    Can we get a "dislike" button for this comment?

    The proof will be given to each and everyone of us, once we die, and nothing happens.

  47. Jack1952

    When I was 13 years old I went shopping for a mother's day gift. I came upon a jewelery box that I knew my mother would love but I didn't have the money for it so I slipped it under my jacket and walked out the door with it. She did love it and before she passed away she gave it to my daughter. No one knows the truth about this box and I still feel guilty about it.

    My mother would have been angry had she known the truth about this box. Just as my mother is not to blame for my actions, neither should any creator be blamed for the actions of a creation that is free to live its life as it chooses.

    Of course, being an atheist myself, the whole God concept would make my argument a moot point. I would still, however, like to see an argument used against religion that has a little more substance. That is why I like your suggestion that God was made in our image. It does seem to explain things a lot better than saying a non-existent God is responsible for all our ills.

  48. Ned Jibreen

    If muhammad had lived today he'd ignore you.

  49. Ned Jibreen

    I don't get it, do you come here just to prey on people who would enjoy this documentary?

    This video isn't asking us to become muslims, you however are trying so hard to make people think the way you do.

    You are the dictionary form of a hypocrite.

    -Doesn't like what others preach however attemps to preach his own beliefs on others.

  50. Ned Jibreen

    Not entirely true, its only in recent times that this massive hate wave against muhammed has come.

    Most specifically after 9/11. Coincidence? Do your research.

  51. JAMIE THOMPSON-BOYLE

    :-)
    awesome vlatko, will watch again when i've read comments :-)

  52. TheSatyaYuga

    I don't consider myself superior to any individual or group. What I dislike is people who spout simplistic views on religion and therefore display the same level of ignorance shown by certain religious types.

  53. Michael Brown

    Proof of what?

  54. Michael Brown

    Do you not know that the presenter in the documentary is a muslim? You should really watch the whole thing before claiming bias.

  55. Wyley Hennick

    You really need to watch this, I'm still a bit surprised you came away feeling that way from the first part. It clearly stated the West's opinion of Islam has been shaped by 9/11. The whole point of this series was to show how the West's views of Islam are wrong. If you had watched it, you would know that :)

  56. Wyley Hennick

    Very informative documentary! Definitely well worth the watch :)

  57. Guest

    Wonder if your avatar was the inspiration behind Seiben's comment down below.

    Hi to all.
    I am back from the Shambhala party, what a week!...quite interesting to see 14,000 19-35yrs old(average). Sex, Drugs and Autocampers!
    If you have been to many concerts with 14,000 people standing around, imagine if they were all camping on the grounds around the stage.
    What a gorgeous piece of land this was happening on where Mother Nature was in the prime beauty with lots of sun rays throughout!

    Been reading quite a few comment for the last two days. I see we have'nt resolved the religion versus science battle yet....lololol
    az

  58. His Forever

    Hi Az! You and Oz have both been absent. I missed you the most! ;-) We need your witty take on "Married to the Eiffel Tower"-----truly mind bending.

  59. Guest

    Hi CnN
    ya i had noticed that he was out too.
    I haven't watched that doc yet. I am at my daughter's for a few days, therefore i don't have much time on the computer other than in early morning (they sleep late where i am rarely up later than 7am (being single))....and the weather is so gorgeous the last 10day...apparently it will continue.
    All i can think of is going camping on the lake on some secluded beach...many on lake Slocan
    az

  60. WTC7

    Hi Az,

    It's nice to see you back :).

  61. His Forever

    Az: I feel guilty about joking about Oz being bi-polar because I think it's true. He's been here, and has "liked" some posts but has not commented himself for a while. I only do that when I'm really upset/discouraged. But maybe he's just busy! I have a hard day tomorrow ahead of me. I need to go to bed. Good night.

  62. Achems_Razor

    Hello single woman, good to see you back, god@mn you are starting to make me miss BC.

  63. Guest

    In recent times, sure. But remember a little hundreds-of years-long frolic called The Crusades? Muslims and Christians (and Jews) have always had problems, and always will, very probably. It seems to be in the nature of religious feeling to make enemies out of those who believe differently, and to put aside any lessons of peace and pick up the sword whenever it suits you. Every side has been guilty of this, and it's one of the biggest reasons for not subscribing to any of them.

  64. Khat

    As an aside, it bothers me that Mr. Omaar is shown turning the pages of a copy of the Quran that's over 1300 years old without gloves - and what a beautiful book it is.

  65. James Green

    Professionally done. Not a dull moment.

    This is one of the best documentaries I have seen that clearly denunciates with impeccable clarity the case for Islam that few in the western world understand. I feel that the vast majority of Islamic peoples desire the same things as the rest of humanity; food, clean water, safe shelter, peace, acceptance and the remaining issues that are common for a satisfactory life.

    To cast nearly a quarter of the planet’s population as radicals, hate bearers and even terrorists because of their religion, without so much as a casual investigation into their world is not only disingenuous, but downright dishonest and, as is painfully obvious to anyone that hasn’t spent the last decade on Mars, dangerous!

  66. Achems_Razor

    I suppose its because nothing much new or thought provoking in the religious circles that we atheists can discuss, same old, same old circular logic! ad naseum.

  67. Kari Suutari

    All the religions are about that the ego is not real and deep down all the forms in this world are one, witch has many names. The differenses between religions is mainly cultural differences. The main problem with major religions appear, when egoic thinking is applied. For more information, google ego (spirituality).

  68. Dracu,

    I admire the BBC effort to present the mohammad story in a more reasonable way and still not offend the bigots, but this documentary is ultimately flawed by the biased interviews, most of the people interviewed are practicing Muslims so it is impossible for them not to be subjective about mohammad and give praise to him...it was like some one was needed to bail him out.

    To me it seams Islam(like any other religion) is a force for good only if you have a independent moral framework and reason to interpret "religious" books, witch is pointless because you are just searching for confirmation of what you already know and feel. Very few people do that, most don't bother reasoning and just get directly to "action" so you can throw that "force for good" out the window.

    After watching this documentary it is hard not to feel sorry that in 2011 we are still subjugated to religion and have to contend with medieval way of thought.

  69. Mad

    But anybody who has done their own research knows Islam wasn't responsible for the 9/11, it was the Neo-Con/Zionist elements within the United States government themselves who set up the whole event.

  70. Mad

    Yes I am familiar with Rageh Omaar and enjoy his previous entries especially the one about child slavery. I couldn't help but feel the BBC's bias dog whistling to the Islamophobe crowd. Like I said can you imagine a documentary made about Jesus that mentions terrorism that was supposedly done in the name of Christianity?

  71. TestTickle

    i looked at the section on the embryo and i can only say that i was not in the least impressed by the 'science' in the quran. it is just taking scientific descriptions of the embryo and torturing them back to things written in the quran. i think your belief in islam makes u see things in the quran that really arent there in order to convince yourself that there must have been divine inspiration. people do this in all religions. they take some vague description from the religious canon and then reinterpret it as something foreshadowing a modern scientific discovery. i think if you google 'buddhism and science', you would find more compelling parallels between ancient buddhist thought and modern science. its all a matter of interpreting [twisting] what u read in the religious texts to be a prescient description of more recent scientific discovery.

  72. FundoK

    HHmm! It is very absurd that almost 1.5 billion people on the globe are following a False Prophet. The man had nothing at all to back up his claims of Revelations from God up on that mountain. Born 570AD after Jesus, there was nothing at all about him to prove that he was God's messanger.He played his music and danced to it. Jesus predicted such people like him when he said to Pharisesses and Saduccess that they had refused to believe in Him and some else will come in his own name and they will believe in him. Such were pple like Mohammed. Jesus backed up his claims and Mohammed's claims were his own just like other false Prophets that have lived and confused many like Confuscious,Joseph Smith.Shoko Asahara, and the like. Only God know what he will do to these false prophets.Iam not the judge

  73. Achems_Razor

    What you think that already has been written in the Quran about scientific paradigms has been hashed and rehashed, here on many docs. on TDF.

    Anything that you think is breaking scientific news has already been said from way before the Quran, from antiquity, mostly from the Greek thinkers. Nothing original in the Quran in that regard.

  74. FundoK

    HHmm! It is very absurd that almost 1.5 billion people on the globe are following a False Prophet. The man had nothing at all to back up his claims of Revelations from God up on that mountain. Born 570AD after Jesus, there was nothing at all about him to prove that he was God's messanger.He played his music and danced to it. Jesus predicted such people like him when he said to Pharisesses and Saduccess that they had refused to believe in Him and some else will come in his own name and they will believe in him. Such were pple like Mohammed. Jesus backed up his claims and Mohammed's claims were his own just like other false Prophets that have lived and confused many like Confuscious,Joseph Smith.Shoko Asahara, and the like. Only God know what he will do to these false prophets.Iam not the judge

  75. Robbie Walters

    how do you explain the beautiful and elegant writing in the koran, coming from an illiterate herder? he just... decided he was going to do that? the fact that he was just a man makes it all the more powerful. Your beliefs seem clear, and yes, only god knows.. in your opinion.. so don't judge and throw around your opinion in such a belligerent manner. What does it matter to you?

  76. Robbie Walters

    well said. religion (re ligare, to bring together) brings people together, and, ironically because of the ego, creates conflict when groups meet other groups, keeping us apart.

  77. FundoK

    Man...donot give praise to something simply because it is clear is viewing (HD) or coz the commentator uses very good english expressions to drive his points at home all in support of a man who was "just a mere man" as he put it. Just as your self. How could some one come up with an allegation that he had seen a vision or received a revelation frm God and you simply accept him with no proof at all? Where is the proof that Mohamed was sent by God? Compare him with Jesus as tell me. In all aspects of proof,Jesus birth was a miracle,His life was characterised by miracles right from age 12- till 33 years when he was taken up visibly up into heaven alive. For Mohamed, nothing at all.How can you people just BLINDLY follow someone who simply came up with allegations there was no supernatural back up to his claims? Have you read about a man name Shoko Asahara (now on death raw) in Japan who claimed that he was immortal and attracted many followers who later discovered were being fooled? Have you read about Armstrong of the World Wide Church of God who fooled people that he had received revelations from God that he would not die before Jesus came back?He died ofcourse and many of his followers ,in millions found out they were being duped. What of Joseph Smith of the Mormons,Confucious, Kibwetere in Africa(Uganda), Mason (serving life).and many many more people who claim and confuse people but unfortunately,these blind people never pause to question the divinity of these imposter's claims. So are you,the followers of Mohamed. Mohamed was no different from these people and the advantage with him to have such a big following is because his false claims were made when the population was till in millions ,if not thousands, all over the globe.that is ,approx,600AD.

    I thank God that ONE DAY,this confusion will end when Jesus return to Earth as the ONLY way through which mankind can enter into Heaven .On that day,the truth will be known unfortunately, it will be too late for the followers of the imposters .I can never follow any body who cannot prove his claims beyond reasonable doubts like JESUS.

  78. Scarlet Pimpernel

    Brain cells many!!!???

  79. dave.eggermont

    When are these nightmares going to stop?
    Insanity gets worshiped. Make religion go away please.

    I'm scared. I really am.

    "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster."

    - F. Nietzsche

  80. stephenkuemmel

    Iv'e a question for religious people, if God is all powerful and loving, and loves all his children, how could he let an innocent child die of hunger?

    If you can give me a straight answer, ill believe in God

  81. Robbie Walters

    If he's all powerful, do you ever ask yourself why he can't just tell you? Your ignorance makes arguing difficult. Perhaps innocent children die because of the selfish greed of others. And many times, there are not straight answers, and there is a point where one must also have faith. This is coming from a non believer, I am only trying to show you that this comment is unrefined and seems to be put here just to give yourself a reason not to believe. You should consider examining reasons why god, should he exist, chooses to remain invisible and silent. Or is he present and active? Probably depends on who you ask and what lens they view the world through.

  82. Robbie Walters

    sounds like some one is a little fired up over this. I think the point james was making, should you read his comment again and actually comment on what he was saying, not just ranting because this obviously challenges your own system of belief and you can't handle that, was that this was a well made documentary, and muslims are people with good hearts just like the one you have. Probably hard to see that if you're angry. I have a hard time seeing other peoples perspectives too, especially when I am emotional. There have been many charismatic leaders who can gain a following- and there will be many more.
    james is praising the documentary for just being done, and people who do not ask critical questions of their own belief but challenge and smear others are people who follow leaders like Jim Jones. And that is indeed dangerous. but only for you.
    You seem very concerned with being right, and sadly, that is what makes your argument so narrow and ignorant.

  83. stephenkuemmel

    i referred to god being all powerful as it says in the bible, Its obvious that there's no straight answer as with all answers that stem from religion. I wasn't asking a question, I was making a point.

    "and there is a point where one must also have faith."

    in other words believe in god and everything will be ok?

    typical religious bullshit, I might as well believe in the tooth fairy for all the good it will do me.

  84. avd420

    Don't be scarerd Dave.

    It's dying, slowly, but surely.

  85. indigodelta

    first of all He is Allah, the One and Only! Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him.
    second there cannot be a 'guilty' child, 'innocent child' is just a redundancy.
    third this world is a prison for a muslim and heaven for the disbeliever, by saying this you might argue, well its not at all heaven for the disbeliever who is dying of hunger!! compared to what has been promised as punishment for the disbeliever 'famine' is a luxury! and vice versa for a muslim even the richest of us muslim this world is a prison as so much is forbidden to us on this earth as a test to get the ultimate gift which is paradise and even if u had all the wealth in the world it could not be compared to the hereafter.
    anyway a child dead before puberty is assured to get paradise as sins are counted only as from this age and on the day of judgement you might get the opportunity of asking them if they would trade in the ultimate gift for food on earth. :]

  86. manohar sullad

    why do you all think of only Human perspective?
    All animals which have a brain have feelings like sex,hunger,pain etc etc. Calf of cows are taken away forcefully from there mother either for beef or raised for beef or milk. in this manner chickens,goats,sheep,swine,etc etc are taken away from there natural mother, they are all innocent aren't they????? many of them die of hunger, over feeding etc....

    You should have asked it " if there is god why there is pain for all life that exist?"
    Only then a universal answer if it is there can be accepted.

    Just purely based on Human Perspective is just plain selfishness of HUMAN SPECIES.

  87. manohar sullad

    I wouldn't say that.
    There is a documentary on this site which says that there is RELIGION BELIEF is here to stay no matter what.
    Its like there in some part of Brain which is preprogrammed

  88. TestTickle

    you seem to accept a whole bunch of things with no proof at all, so why shouldnt someone else? what proof do you have that jesus' birth was a miracle or that he performed any miracles? do you believe what the bible says just because it says that it is the word of god? actually, there is no real proof that jesus lived at all.

  89. avd420

    Yeah but maybe next time they'll believe in someting that ins't magical and is non-violent.

  90. Jack1952

    I will not show my face. I will give no evidence of my existence. I will punish you severely if you do not worship me.

    If Allah blocks my way into paradise for my sins on earth, is it proper for Muslims to rejoice in my exclusion. When God told Abraham that he was going to destroy Sodom, Abraham felt compelled to plead for the lives of these "sinners". Although God destroyed Sodom, He held Abraham as an example of the proper way for humanity to behave when God finds it necessary to punish us. Why is it an Atheist, like me, can recognize this lesson but someone who has dedicated his life to God, cannot. Do the faithful often suffer from pride, an inflated ego that allows him to believe that he is better than his fellow humanity?

    The threat of retribution is no reason to try to live a good life. We should do it because its the right thing to do, not because God commands it.

  91. aConceptualist

    The Life in this world as we know it is little to nothing compared to the hereafter. Once you get in grasps with this concept the rest is easy. No matter how tough ones being was in this life, it can be all easily compensated in the next much longer and much more vivid life.

  92. Guest

    Excellent! You've just demonstrated an even greater smug sense of superiority in this post than you did in the first! If you really don't feel this way, you ought to be just a little more circumspect in your choice of words.

  93. Dracu,

    Like @Achems_Razor and @TestTickle I've seen few of those articles and I can tell you I'm not at all impressed, they just talk semantics...I bet that when the science changes(and it always does progressing...unlike religion, science doesn't claim to have the ABSOLUTE TRUTH) the "scientific" interpretation of the quran will also change, so ultimately you haven't got anything to back up those claims(by the way, have you heard of "creation science"?). If you just clear your head of the emotional attachment to Islam you'll have the same perspective.

    As an analogy I can tell you that the Greek philosopher, Democritus, develop the idea of the atom around 460 B.C. ... are you going to tell me that he was divinely inspired or that he was a prophet?

    Leaving those aside(and you can tell your friends this also), please stop spamming this site with religious dogma, there clearly are some "questionable" people here but I'm sure you're not going to convert anyone.
    Why not limit yourself to the al jazeera site or the Islamic forums? :)
    Have a happy life...

  94. xyz777

    There is enough food for everyone BUT the greed of people (USA) throws out millions upon millions of food annually, Corruption in the needy nations is rampant and often have a huge military budget too!

    Are you able to document what you have done to alleviate hunger?
    I spent nearly 20 years in such places helping such people.

  95. Trevis Robotie

    god is man's biggest scam,how could he,it or she, possibly feed any child?faith is in our head,the stronger the better for the beholder....and man has always,will always serve something 'cause it's good for the ego.i believe this mo' guy was just one of those smooth operators that come every now and then with our history(and story),fits himself in with the big boys before him and he got game!an old pervert with a good heart.adds a fresh revelation every other day as suit his needs(just like another mo'-moses).we must feed the kids,if we wait for god....hai voglia di aspettare

  96. TheSatyaYuga

    Good point, however there are some religious types who don't just accept what they're told, who are open minded and constantly question the teachings of their faith (contradictory statement but believe me they exist) . Unfortunately these individuals are the minority.

  97. taffiongy

    God dosent have to do what u see right and dont do what u see wrong , so u believe in him .
    maybe what u see bad is good at the end

  98. Jack1952

    You nailed it right on the head. Religion can be a force for evil if you enter it for selfish reasons, i.e.; I want to go to Paradise and I don't care who I sacrifice to receive my eternal reward. This in no different than shooting a convenience store clerk for the money in the till. It is for personal gain. The Muslim suicide bomber blows himself up so he can go to Paradise. No altruistic motives whatsoever. I'm sure Allah can see right through this greedy grab for an eternal life of bliss.

    Don't think I'm just pointing the finger at Muslims, either. There are other religious fanatics who may just as guilty.

  99. Jack1952

    I should add, however, that I found this to be one of the best documentaries I have ever watched on this subject. Quite informative and an honest retrospective by some very thoughtful Muslims.

  100. Jack1952

    I'm sure I can read Dr. Suess and interpret any hidden meaning that you ask me to look for. If I succeed does that prove that Dr. Suess was divinely inspired?

    You assume that the people living at the time of Muhammad were a bunch of dolts and could not possibly have any knowledge of science unless God revealed it. Speaking from an arrogant position, maybe?

    Spirituality is an entity of faith. Faith does not require proof. If you insist on finding evidence to justify your faith, you will embarrass yourself in any open forum.

  101. AGahool

    Okay, I do not believe in any religion, as I see fundamental and serious flaws in all religions. They all came from one smart small group of people to control the minds of others, and they have changed their appierance or names but all religions are from one source, passed on from generations to generations.

    But I have an answer to your question, you can ignore it if you disagree.

    It has to do with truth, justic and the correction of the nature and its powerful enrgys.

    Ones child carries genes of their parents. Not only physical, but also charictoristics and emotions and culture of the parents. In my opinion, the children are the continuation of the same persons who brought the child to the world. And this goes on for meny future generations.

    I also strongly believe that if I hurt or harm someone else, I will suffer the same or even more either during my own life or my children as continuation of me will suffer. This is the real justice and power of our nature and the energy that exist in it. Note the expressions like : what goes around comes around, or do to others what you want for yourself, these have no religious roots, but came from the wisdom of our elders.

    My point is if an innicent child gets hurt or suffers, is because of the wrong doings of his/her previous generations. And we all know that our previous generations have not been saints exactly. There is a bad apple in every box of apples.

    I hope that you find this helpful. Best wishes, world peace and prosperity for all.

  102. FOO T

    I'll give one very powerful answer. All the innocent child are going to heaven. Fair enough?

  103. Achems_Razor

    Simple, all the over 28,000 gods today, and the 28,000,000 million gods in recorded history, are all man made HO's.

    I am not religious...there are no gods, there is just us!

  104. Ali Rabab

    i think you have not done any research. do you know how much food is wasted each year. the HOLY QURAN(sacred book for muslims) says that whenever a baby is born his sustenance is the responsibility of GOD. GOD is fulfilling his responsibilties but we humans mismanage the food resources. it is our fault. in the Iraq war do you know how many million tons of wheat was destroyed. the wheat was somebody's sustenance and if destroyed that means that it is our i.e the humans fault.

  105. Masoud Barekzi

    God has put us in this world he created wealth and poverty. God says i give someone wealth in order he can help the poor. Its not God that makes the children suffer its us human its the greed of the human EX if we spend all the money which we use in wars if we give all that to the poor there will be no hunger in the world another EX you see people spend $1000.00 on a pair jeans if u buy a $100.00 jeans and wear that and give the other $900.00 for the poor there will be no hunger and suffering in the world. Thats what god wants us to do but we don't do that because we want luxury and we are way to greedy to that. You know one of the biggest sin is greed. Now i hope you change you're mind and believe that there is creater.

  106. Guest

    If Muhammad had lived today, that would've been a side-effect of his medication.

  107. Guest

    No! Not if it prevents you from attending to that child's suffering now.

    Who really knows anything of heaven? No one, no matter what they may try to tell you. Not you, or anyone else. But everyone is perfectly clear on what that child's situation is right now, and that is what should be our business. Frankly, it disgusts me to see some here complacently pontificating about how its all going to have been for the best someday, when such stupidity doesn't amount to a "hill of beans" from that child's point of view. If it did, I wouldn't have any problem with it...

    The only thing very powerful about your answer is the appalling lack of humanity it implies.

  108. stephenkuemmel

    i referred to god being all powerful as it says in the bible, Its obvious that there's no straight answer as with all answers that stem from religion. I wasn't asking a question, I was making a point.

    "and there is a point where one must also have faith."

    in other words believe in god and everything will be ok?

    typical religious bullshit, I might as well believe in the tooth fairy for all the good it will do me.

    I copied and pasted this. I said this yesterday.

  109. Moneer Alqahtani

    Do not believe in God better for you and for us :)

  110. a_no_n

    same with Jesus...If only hed kept his mouth shut we wouldn't have a christian lunatic mowing down unarmed children on isolated islands either...or any of the other millions of ever more depressing examples of sexual indecency, murder rape and violence, and ignorance brought on by faith in Christ

  111. Guest

    Believe in God, if you must. But the rational world will always employ greater weapons. :)

  112. adilrye

    It's pretty remarkable how Mohammed went from a band of a few hundred follows centered in a small Arabian town to a major world religion with over 1.5 billion followers. What could have been a belief system only to the people of the Arabian Peninsula translated extremely well to people across Asia and Africa, and now all corners.

    Also, I'm beginning to feel that the Shariah Law is not what the radicals make it out to be. It seems to be grounded in equality, respect and fairness, more like the idea of "social justice" than anything else. The fundamentalists aren't really "fundamentalists" because they aren't LOOKING AT WHAT THE FUNDAMENTALS ARE.

    Anyway, a really entertaining doc. I like how it focuses on Mohammed's life and the early days of Islam, and the contemporary interpretation of these events. Very nice. Plus, the HD's very welcome too.

  113. indigodelta

    lol dear sir i guess everyone will be settled when the angel of death comes and visits them. for my part i dont wanna risk it i follow islaam through conviction and personal experience, i have nothing to lose by doing this. 'religious bullshit' huh well we will see. lol

  114. Serhend Sirkecioglu

    Your under the assumption that power and intelligence is a sign of benevolance which biology says otherwise, In fact those traits are more in line with those of a predetor so God does not have to care at all in fact god could be a kid with a gun creating and destroying for shits ang giggles beyond our mortal comprehension. so my anwser is cause "he" could care less what happens to us whether or not we fervently believe in him or not. Nothing makes my day like a dumb atheist.

  115. POZZIMYSTIC

    Muhammad Killed many many people> His religion is scary, IMHO
    Islam could not of existed without the sword, can not be maintained without the sword!

  116. Intbel

    Straight answer: "God" whatever folks perceive god to be does not deny us our freedom to choose. Does not interfere.

  117. Abdulwahab Alkandari

    cause then you will have heaven on earth !

  118. Abdulwahab Alkandari

    tell me any other religion did not start and stayed by the sword !!! or only in Islam ?? and BTW the biggest islamic population of Muslims live in Indonesia and they all converted by traders not a single sword ! more than 120 million

  119. Vanraj Jokhakar

    Try Budhism, Jainism, Hinduism, Wika,

  120. Earthwinger

    Although I'm not a religious person, I am curious, and I fully intended to watch all of this. I found the presentation far too tedious though. Rageh Omaah is very much an establishment figure in the BBC, and I guess that given that he's a Muslim, it was a no-brainer to have him present this documentary. I find him about as engaging as watching paint dry though, so I only lasted about thirty minutes before I fell asleep. Fortunately, I slept through all of the remaining 2.5 hours, so although I learned very little about the life of Muhammad, at least I awoke later feeling thoroughly refreshed.

    If someone like Michael Wood were to make a programme on the subject, that would be an entirely different matter.

  121. His Forever

    Thanks for that. I think I'll pass on this one.

  122. Yavanna

    That old chestnut.

    Grow up.

    Learn to google.

    Everything you quote has been debunked.

    Stupidity however is immune to google / knowledge / scientific enquiry.

    The site you link is no better than answersingensis which proclaims that dinosaurs existed with men. If you want your pseudo religion equated with american evangelicals then carry straight on. They think the Flintstones was a documentary and I have more respect for Muslims I have known personally than to believe that .

    If YOU are truthful to yourself do your own research. Read a fecking book. Research your very own claims. Stop being so righteous in your own stupidity.

    Islam is sooooooooooooo sciency (sigh)

    Well try watching a few documentaries on the same channel you watched this one on. Like the recent ones showing how Ancient Egyptians and Greeks (not to mention Romans) were massively advanced in terms on science. (that was before your fecktard prophet was born by the way)

    I could go on and on but put quite simply put you are not worth the energy that would be required to absolutely annihilate you.

    You should be absolutely ashamed that in a time of modern realism and rationalism you subscribe to such boll0cks

  123. Mahmoud M Othman

    If god did everything for us, what would be the use of "Freedom of choice", "Power of will", "Intellect" and "Human mind"?

    Allah has favored and honored humans with the gift of "the mind", the ability to make choice based on logic and intellect; no other creature of god possesses this ability.

    With this ability we change the world around us for better or worse. when similar circumstances exist it's a chance for us humans to "make a decision"; to either be indifferent and apathetic or to "make a difference". Otherwise, there would be no point in living and making decisions which we are to be judged upon on "judgment day". God created us equal and we then differ ourselves through our actions and decisions.

    It's the biggest challenge and test Stephen when you think about it. I hope this answers your question my friend :)

  124. indigodelta

    hahahahahaha you know the truth and deny it. uve got no hidden agenda isnt that right mr 'thompson-boyle', a name that inspires so much confidence. Ask for a pay rise u frankly deserve it for all the hard work u put in or should i say copy n pasting. lol u sure amuse me sir.

  125. Serhend Sirkecioglu

    Well for your first linkand after watching the film I found this nice comment which sums up your "research":

    [I am a well educated woman, not a follower of any Abrahamic religion. And I have studied all these three religions for years. After listening to the whole documentary very carefully, I have one conclusion to share with you:
    Every era, every historical time, has its shrinked minds who spread nonsens and untruth in the name of objective facts and Truth. They know how to put every single word, every event, every proposition out of its theological, linguistique, cultural, political and geografical context and reduce everything to one single factor, which in this case they call it "Islam".

    You have this kind of people througout history, everywhere, in all cultures and in all religions. Be aware of the false claims and halfs truths they try to spread. Be critical of what they call their sources. Because I asure you what you hear here is for a very great deal only twisted facts and twisted truth.

    These "commentators" are driven by a blind hate. Some of them should go and take a very good look at their own history and the history of their own faiths.]

    you are a racist and bigot, who hates immigrants and their culture and only accepts them cause it politically ccorrect and you dont want to lose face. be honest for once in your life.

  126. Joel Griggs

    First off - you're all idiots... To say that you KNOW there is or isn't a god is retarded and arrogant. There's no evidence either way and there's a hell of a lot of evidence against the existence of the god of Abraham (jew, christian, muslim god).
    But let me humour you non secular fools for a moment using your own reasoning. Your religions tell us that we have free will, yet at the same time God is omnipotent and nothing in the universe can happen that isn't God's will. If God wills it, it is and if he doesn't will it, it isn't. If this wasn't the case he wouldn't be the one true god. Therefore it's a complete contradiction that we can have free will because we cannot do anything that goes against his will. Taking that line of reasoning further - it's God's will that I along with many other don't believe in him. It's God's will that we all go to hell because of not believing in him. It's God's will that I sin, insult him and insight anger in other religious people and possibly cause them sin (and subsequently go to hell).

    And where exactly is the free will in a child being born with cerebral palsy or down syndrome or autism? I've worked with the mentally disabled for many years and it absolutely breaks my heart that such a horrible fate could be handed to them - it is no life at all. Some get glimpse of what a normal life can be and this is the hardest thing to see of all the disabilities. When a young man with autism and severe physical disability wants to fall in love but knows it will never happen... What kind of sick torture is that, what did he do to deserve that? This is the work of your all loving compassionate God? Or was it humans that did that? Kind of confusing when you throw in the whole God being omnipotent thing.

    Instead of telling people that God works in mysterious ways or saying that it's a human sin due to our free will, how about you arse holes do some good in this world and stop spreading your lies designed to placate people into not making this world a better place for all of us.

    If it wasn't for the Christian jerks in this world we would probably have advanced stem cell research to the point of healing many diseases. If it wasn't for the Jewish pricks in this world, we wouldn't have the terrorist state known as Israel and if it wasn't for you Muslim tossers, hundreds of millions of women wouldn't experience the oppression you advocate as the word of God or the immeasurable level of intolerance and double standards you so vehemently deny you do.

    If there is a God, it's probably most ashamed of those who claim to KNOW it does or doesn't exist, you were clearly its biggest mistake.

    Use the brain you were f-ing born with - that would be the real miracle.

  127. JAMIE THOMPSON-BOYLE

    lol!! i take it you didn't watch the documentary that featured extensive interviews with former muslims, or read anything on the websites then, one of which is ran and written by one of the aforementioned muslims??

    as for being a racist and a bigot, i don't care if you're green with pink spots and come from alpha centauri, what i do care about is a group of people causing pain and suffering to various groups of minorities whilst hiding behind the guise of 'religion'!!!

  128. JAMIE THOMPSON-BOYLE

    lol!! i'm glad i amuse you. i aim to please when i can :-)
    i take it you didn't take the time to watch the documentary nor read through the websites i posted either.

    as for copy and pasting, aside from the links i've posted, i think you'll find that i haven't copied and pasted anything. merely provided you with the means to find out for yourself exactly what i'm on about.

  129. Serhend Sirkecioglu

    Your comment is both arrogant and stupid. you lack the brain to realize the questions you ask are humanizing god, your talking as if "god" were a person. if you actually sat down to study theology instead of talking out of you arse then you would have known that "god" has no shape or form beyond comprehension. the token atheist argument of "if there is a god then why is there all this suffering" is actually faith based in a way, you assume that god has our same morals or even has morals, which is naive and bothers to ask the real question: if there is a "god" in all it's omnipitence would it even care we exsist? is our devotion warped and one sided?
    If you ever heard of the Sentience Quotion, you would know that as humans we struggle to communicate meaningfully with primates and other vertebres and tthey are only a few point less than our SQ of 13. Now with that in mind, what would a omnipitent being with a SQ far beyond ours ever have to say to or care about us? now in this explaination i'm guilty of humanizing "god", assuming it has sentience and this because I only have two means of studying "god": an Introspective one(Faith) and a Extrospective(Science), i should correct myself in saying we only have Earth introspection and extrospection.
    Our current ways of thinking and theories are only according to a single point in the universe, Earth. how can we meaningfully say with any certainty how something is if we have such a limited view point? its like being born and raised in a corner not knowing anything else and judging the eitirety of the world by that corner(religion) and then realizing there is a room and judging the eintirety of the world according to that room(science).
    Show some humility for others ways of thinking.

  130. Joel Griggs

    Right then but the God you're talking about is not the god of Abraham - your talking about a totally abstract idea that is, to use your words, beyond comprehension.
    I am actually familiar with SQ and I have no idea what would indicate to you that I'm not, so nice assumption pal. Using this as your main argument certainly has given no credit to the idea of the god of Abraham and actually serves to back up the agnostic view of an incomprehensible being that has nothing to do with any religion on earth.

    I don't deny this as a possibility and I think I made that clear by saying there is no strong evidence for a God either way but there is a damn good lot of evidence to show that the god of Abraham is a fictitious man made creation.
    "The token atheist argument" is a frigging good one if you want to talk about an all knowing, loving, compassionate god of Abraham.

    You sound far more agnostic than any religion I know of but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if you were just like the rest of those typical cherry picker non-secular types that just pick and choose what doctrine to follow and what to ignore.
    It's quite difficult to follow anything in any of the holy books whether it be the bible, Qur'an, or Torah because it's all so contradictory and you damn well know it. And if you do know that then how exactly do you know what parts were meant to be taken literally and what were intended as parables? You don't and therefore you have to take the whole thing as fact or the whole thing as fiction (that includes taking any talk about God or Jesus, Moses or Muhammad as fiction).
    I noticed you skipped over the whole free will issue by re-wording the standard "God works in mysterious ways" response.

    If you're agnostic then I don't really have any beef with you apart from your lack of ability to actually read a comment properly - I'm not atheist for the same reason that I'm not religious, we simply don't know and if you say that you do, you're either misinformed or you're a liar.

    There might be an original creator that goes so far beyond our comprehension that we can't even imagine it. I remember a quote that goes something like "the universe is not queerer than we imagine, it's queerer than we CAN imagine".
    Again, idea's like that, I have no issue with because ultimately the idea that we don't know, is the only one that we can prove.

    I will not however, have any respect or humility for the opinions of people who follow harmful, fictitious rubbish, written by ancient superstitious MEN, ie. Christians, Jews, Muslims and Hindus.

    "When you understand why you don't believe in any of the other religions, you'll understand why I don't believe in yours."

  131. Guest

    How can one be retarded and arrogant at the same time.

  132. Guest

    And arrogant and stupid? How can you be arrogant and stupid at the same time?

  133. Vlatko

    One hell of a passionate comment @Joel Griggs. I agree, except with the words idiots, retarded and arrogant.

  134. Joel Griggs

    quite easily:

    ar·ro·gant/?ar?g?nt/
    Adjective: Having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.

    re·tard 2 (rtärd)
    n. Offensive Slang
    1. Used as a disparaging term for a mentally retarded person.
    2. A person considered to be foolish or socially inept.

    Just because someone thinks they're correct doesn't mean they are. I encounter people every day that are arrogant but really know nothing, hence they are retarded too. Religious people often fit this description to a T.

  135. Joel Griggs

    Much appreciated mate. I will try to reign in the name calling next time but it is difficult in the face of such ignorance.
    I posted a reply to lakhotason below that I thought was quite matter-of-fact and a whole let less offensive than my first comment but it said it needed to be checked by moderators..?

    And I love your website by the way! I'm on here pretty much every day and encourage just about every person I meet to jump on and have a look at the doco's you have on offer.
    Damn fine of you to help others educate themselves. Much respect.

  136. His Forever

    I think stem cells from yourself will eventually prove to be the most effective, not from aborted babies. If we had used the same amount of time and funding in that direction, perhaps we would have a better solution by now.

  137. Patrick Meinel

    I hope everyone participated in draw mohammed day this year. It is unacceptable for the followers of a religion to impose their laws upon others- especially when their aim is to try and intimidate the people from the enlightened nations of world for exercising free speech

  138. avd420

    What's the punishment for apostasy in every islamic state other than Indonesia and Malaysia?

    It's death. How is that not forcing it upon the populus?

    Those countries are so much more progressive than the middle east or Africa I don't even like them being mentioned together. Although that's what I just did :P

  139. David Foster

    Your argument is the very proof of how miserably the prophets failed in what they had set out to do. Or maybe it only seems that way. As I am oft keen to point out: the world of men today is exactly what they had warned it would become.

  140. Zahid Ali

    Dear you need to study Wyne W Dyre a very famous and remarkable person from America. Specially his book and video Power of intention.
    He is scientifically discussing about God

  141. Guest

    In response to some of the comments thrown back and forth down below...

    I think that everyone here should either read Ernest Becker's book "The Denial of Death" or see the documentary based on that book by Patrick Shen entitled "Flight From Death." It discusses the human process knows as "immortality striving," which is responsible for man's creation of religion, God, great architecture, stunning works of art, and even children. Basically, the premise sheds light on the fact that throughout history, mankind, because of his inability to reconcile his own mortality, has consistently manifested articles, either real or imagined, that might outlive him and maintain his or some collective legacy. It further suggests that man, because of this uneasiness with his own demise, also gravitates to aligning himself with pillars of faith or eternity-based institutions that could in some way, assuage his unconscious fear of death or ensure his own immortality.

    Throughout my life, I've made it a point to align myself with and study almost every major spiritual practice and doctrine on this planet, just to see what they were about as well as to understand their followers. Islam, Christianity (many denominations), Buddhism, Shintoism, Judaism and Scientology, just to name a few. I've even studied Earth Magic (Wicca) and played the role of "warlock" to a coven of totally harmless but utterly hot witches in Venice Beach (another long story). And what I've learned was that at the heart of all these seemingly disparate and diverse ideologies and faiths exists an essentially similar core made up of a few components, the main component of that core housing a desperate longing to outlive this earthly existence somehow, wrapped in a strong desire to be a part of something bigger (and better) than ourselves...and an obligation to perform good deeds or work to earn our eternal rewards.

    Hence, we are motivated to do incredibly beautiful things like raise children, erect tall monuments and architectural masterpieces, create beautiful art and music -- all of which we hope will outlive us and leave some evidence of our presence or contribution to this life that we know...or once knew. But sadly, our fear of death also motivates other desperate human behaviors like avarice, aggression, inconsideration and selfishness, resulting in some of the greatest wars and periods of suffering on the planet. The fear of death -- and this is a real "kicker" -- is also responsible for suicide bombers. I'll let you do the math on that one for a minute .

    I don't consider myself to be a religious man, but I feel I am deeply spiritual. With that said, I've come to believe, after decades of searching for answers, that god doesn't exist, at least not in any of the forms that we would normally identify. That "god" force with which most of us so desperately hope to connect will probably turn out to be something more akin to dark energy or the "ether" -- a power that fills the space in between you and me...but one that we can't really see, smell, hear, touch, define or explain. However, we can, or at least think we can, sense it. It sounds mysterious I know, but then, isn't that the beauty of it all -- the mystery. I don't believe we were meant to know it all and going even further, I don't think it really matters in the big picture. I like the notion that we'll always be children of time and space...ever discovering...ever growing...ever learning...ever changing...ever evolving. And when I say "evolving," I'm really more implying "elevating" as humans and hopefully becoming, in some ways, better.

    When we stand at death's door, if we were given pause and a moment to reflect upon our lives, most of us would think about what we've spent our lives doing and our good times, relationships, children, accomplishments, causes we've helped or sometimes sadly, our regrets. I'm sure I missed a few, but those are the big ones. I've seen a few people go in my life and got the privilege to speak to some amazing people just before they passed. Their insights could easily fill the pages of the entire Harry Potter series, but what I've concluded is that if anyone or anything should be worshiped or highly regarded on this planet then it might as well be death. Not feared, but more cherished and respected for the power it undeniably commands. And although it's tangible, we can't really define it. Death lives in a moment. A dead body is not death, but merely a by-product. So what is death? It's a period at the end of a sentence. It's the end. Or is it?

    Death takes...but death also gives. Death moves us to do great, and unfortunately, not so great things. But for the most part, death motivates us to seize our lives and pursue our dreams because we know the clock is ticking. And like the ever ticking clock, death serves as a constant reminder because it is all around us, all the time.

    But readers, please don't miss the message here and erect a shrine to the Grim Reaper in your bedroom just yet. Death is only a mirror in which the meaning of life is reflected (that last one was all mine, by the way ;-). I'm not suggesting that anyone go out and worship death. I actually think we shouldn't worship anything, not even ourselves or any part of our existence, in general. And although I think that faith and belief are natural parts of life, I'd put my faith in awareness, charity, rectitude and simple unconditional love before anything else. Maybe we should exalt these four (and similar) virtues or states first, because after all, don't these supposedly represent the foundation upon which nearly every religion and higher form of ideology were built? Weren't these and their subtle variants adopted to help instill and uphold the integrity of the collective society of mankind in the first place?

    There were some amazing, astute and beautiful things written in this comment section below; the religion debate can most certainly ignite the passions. However, I think it's important to remember that even the best and most grammatically correct argument can be tainted by profanity and insults. I also think that Siddhartha Gautama, if he did exist, was probably closest to the "truth" when he ultimately concluded that the best thing we can do while we're here is try to understand and help one another and do our best to ease the pain and suffering of all beings on this planet.

    People think charity is just a write-off, but it really is at the heart of who we are as humans...and even further, it defines our own humanity and distinguishes us from every other animal and living entity on this planet. Someone mentioned Wayne Dyer earlier and I think the good Doctor has it right when he talks about cultivating a "softness" in ourselves that is firmly rooted in compassion.

    I realize that I've referenced the teachings of Buddha and Dr. Wayne Dyer in this offering, but I've found that there are great words and viewpoints in most of the world's great ideologies, books and religions. And when something resonates as truth to me, I appreciate it and utilize it to my advantage -- to help me evolve into the best human being I can possibly become. This is mainly because if reincarnation really does exist, then I'd strongly prefer to come back as something other than a dung beetle -- rolling that dung ball up a hill looks like absolute torture.

    For some, I suppose becoming the "best human being" might mean a refined instrument of financial domination or military annihilation. For me, it means becoming the most humble, generous, compassionate, strong, sensitive, aware, just, fair, wise and grateful person I can become.

    So, for as much as I appreciate truth wherever and whenever I see it, there are no ideological strings attached to my mind or soul...but I welcome those few strings I allow to attach to my heart, for they're the ones that make life worth living.

    In closing, I believe that it's perfectly fine to believe or not believe whatever you wish, as long as it doesn't impinge upon the rights or well-being of others. You have your beliefs; I have mine. Let your belief(s) be your own, because at the end, the only thing that matters is what you do, what I do -- what we each do as individuals in our own singular individual lives. We all came into this miraculous existence...and we will all eventually pass from it. This is all I know. This is all I need to know. And this is what motivates me to try, help and be kind, in word and in action, to as many people as I can while I'm alive...and if what I've written here motivates just one other person out there to join me and do the same, then I think that's a wonderful thing.

    Have a beautiful life, one and all.

    Signed,
    Your Dung-Beetle-In-Training

  142. Guest

    Your "illuminati eye" phreaks me out a little, man, lol. But your post is one of the very best I've ever read.

  143. Guest

    if i could use a yellow marker, your missive would be outlined!
    az

  144. His Forever

    Wow. You're such a good writer--wish you were a man of faith and someone who could speak words of "life" and "truth", rather than in the end, a man who has nothing greater to worship than "death".

  145. adlene

    why would you hurt 1.5 billion musilim with this stupidities claiming freedom of speech lolll come on the world is already complicated and unfair

  146. rom mak

    Joel

    I may not understand everything about biology and if I then go and start calling biologists idiots and fools for not knowing obvious things that I am confused about, it would make me look foolish, it is I who is confused. Your above comment sounds similar.

    From the Islamic perspective Allah or God is, and in his infinite Knowledge, he had a model of all that would be created, including You. Your own source form (how you would behave by yourself power, what you would believe etc. was in complete detail apparent to God), asked to be given existence, then God gave you existence and allowed you to appear in the material world in your own time and place. Here you do as you please and God allows you to do whatever He knew you would do before you existed! Hence the reconciliation of human free will and Divine destiny.

  147. Achems_Razor

    Good writing, but it is to good, I don't believe you. What is your ulterior motive? To sway people to live according to your plans, hopes and inspirations? that goes in one ear and out of the other.

    I for one am not interested, unless of course there is money involved. Writing a book maybe?

  148. Guest

    Thank you (I think). Your beliefs are your own responsibility, my friend. And it is possible for people to share ideas without any (ulterior) motivation, other than wanting to offer a simple point of view.

    I don't really care one way or another if I sway anyone else to follow my lead. And regarding the book...any book I'd write would not be about this subject or anything remotely close.

    Regards...

  149. Guest

    Thank you. Please review paragraph seven ("But readers...), as I think you may have misunderstood my intention.

    Regards...

  150. lex lexich

    i know, there is no god... it is just a concept that serve us as a guide
    humans created god, not vice versa... why is that so? if god is one, why do we have so many of them? oh, i know -my god is bigger than yours!

  151. His Forever

    I agree with Razor: we all have some "motive" behind our actions I think. Mine are usually pretty obvious.

    I really think his motive was to "unmotivate" Christian believers from sharing truth with others (as that seems to be his message in the last paragraph). That's the effect it had on me at least. I'm all for "kindness" but the whole post left me feeling "cold".

    Correct me if I'm wrong Mr. Schmozart, but I think we understand eachother pretty well.

    Peace to you.

  152. His Forever

    Schmozart: Ok. Reread the post. Still feel quite "cold". Blessing nonetheless to you!

    Charles B.

  153. His Forever

    Not such a good idea, me thinks! Save the effort for a real necessity when the time comes, like fighting against the harshness of Shariah Law and the rights of women to be educated and children, etc.

    Peace to you! :-)

  154. His Forever

    "Conversion must be the exercise of a free and informed personal choice." I nearly chocked on that one!

  155. Guest

    Hi Charles,

    Thanks for your thoughtful responses. Again, really no (ulterior) motive on my end. I happened to read some of the earlier posts yesterday morning that sounded very hostile and was merely saddened by the fact that a discussion about a subject like religion, which I believe has the potential to unite us through precepts originally developed around understanding and the acceptance of others, only continues to divide us. I felt compelled to volunteer my two cents...which has since grown to about $1.28.

    I'm sorry that you couldn't take my assurance at face value that I had no ulterior motive as Mr. Razor suggested...and I'm a little saddened by that. But I'm more surprised that you felt I singled out Christians as my target for "unmotivation." Or that I was trying to "unmotivate" anyone. Really? I was mainly writing about death, for goodness' sake.

    Remember that I studied the Bible and was a practicing Christian (for many years). I was even an acolyte in Episcopal church growing up, so I was definitely on the inside and as church-geeky as one could get. Now, I can imagine you might be thinking that I'm currently somehow rebelling against religious or spiritual institutions because of the fact that I was indoctrinated at such an early age, but the answer to that is an emphatic "nyet." I loved being a part of the church when I was young, as well as benefited enormously from every spiritual fellowship with which I was aligned over the years, right up through my early thirties (just a few years ago).

    Growing up as a kid with a 170 IQ was not easy and kids like me tended to ask a lot of questions and incessantly sought the truth, which invariably brought conflict to a fragile young Mensa mind, especially where spiritual matters were concerned. So maybe my problem all along has been that I just use my brain too much and ask too many darn questions...but I wouldn't have it any other way.

    If I read a post from you, sharing your love of the Lord with fellow readers, then I would simply gather that you're passionate about your beliefs, not that you were trying to convert anyone or "motivate" anyone to subscribe to your particular brand of Jesus, unless of course you invited readers to contact you for more information or something to that effect. I only offered some interesting reading and a good documentary because after all, this is a documentary website. We're all adults with brains and we should be able to read differing viewpoints and merely appreciate them for what they are: opinions, beliefs, convictions, etc.

    So no, I don't think we understand each other...which ties into the reason why I left some ideological systems behind in my life that I believed to be flawed in some way or, at the very least, had become corrupted over the course of history. Again, that was my choice. But hey, who knows, I might have an epiphany next week and decide to become a Muslim extremist or some Conservative Christian Army soldier. Maybe someone will "motivate" me to do that, right? Probably not.

    I honestly believe you felt cold because there were no emphatic god references in my post and that is maybe where you find your sanity, solace and shelter -- and if that's the case, then I fully understand and respect that. I truly do. But if you're implying that reason, common sense and rational thinking devoid of any God references are somehow cold, then I believe that is your interpretive failing, not mine.

    I just have to add here that the word kindness never needs to be in "quotes" because it makes kindness seem like a novelty...a nice idea -- that thing we're supposed to employ in our daily lives. With that said, let that be my religion then: the religion of Kindness.

    "Jesus"
    "Buddha"
    "Allah"
    "Kindness"

    Sounds good to me. Oh no, I think I've just revealed myself! You got me -- I'm secretly trying to convert you all to Kindnessism!

    All in fun, Charles. Take care. And peace to you, as well.

    Mr. Schmozart ;-)
    (thinking too much...under the warm down covers with a heating pad)

  156. His Forever

    Schmozart: To be totally honest, I felt immense forboding reading your posts. To an extreme measure. Sometimes superior intelligence is a drawback in life as it precludes spiritual "discernment" more often than not. Choosing my words carefully, I would advise you to not allow your super intelligence to darken your soul, for it is very dark indeed.

    Peace in Christ alone,

    Charles B.

  157. Guest

    Okay Charles.

    Love and light,
    Mr. S

  158. gallowaygrumblefield

    How does a child dying of leukemia or getting hit by a truck or drug gang crossfire or starvation in Ethiopia translate to "Freedom of choice", "Power of will", "Intellect" and "Human mind"? That argument is not only ostentatious and meaningless, it's also a cop-out because it's defenders can't really come up with a meaningful answer to the question, nor do they really know what it means. The concept of God seems to progressively inflate to encompass everything that cannot be explained. Depending on who does the explaining, God is either "all love" or God is a childish, selfish, jealous bastard who punishes his children by killing them. even the lioness doesn't kill her own children, making the lion a better parent than God. I'm not saying there isn't God, only that there are other possibilities than "God gave us freedom of will...mind...etc." It could be there is a supreme intelligence that doesn't have any favorable bias toward the human species, or life on earth at all. What we can say is that nature and human decision making are the factors that have driven the present outcome of civilization. We can completely remove any consideration of God and still function any way we want, and nature will still continue to favor or kill us according to its own laws.

  159. Dracu,

    A piece of advice - stay calm. Saying from the get go that everybody is an idiot, retarded and arrogant it is more indicative of what kind of person you are than anything else :)
    I have the same views as you on religion but nobody will listen to you or take you serious if you spit in their face.

    When arguing the existence/non-existence of something you should always clearly define that something, on the subject of god very few honest and rational people will do that, most will say that they don't know...but everybody makes assumptions of what it could be from a personal perspective(as you also did), which for me is enough to assume god doesn't exist.
    There also is enough proof, from a neurological and psychological point of view, that "god"(like its religion by-product) or more precisely the concept of god is a product of the human mind, not vice versa.
    From a more materialistic point of view "god" is the thing that stands outside the grip of science, the god of the gaps argument, which, as history showed, is more indicative of human ignorance than the existence of "god".

    If there is something I've missed please tell me :)
    Have a happy life...

  160. His Forever

    Ok, Mr. Schmozart. Must admit ----I love your icon (unless it is "Johnathon Seagull"). ;-)

    Love and light to you as well.

    Charles B.

  161. JAMIE THOMPSON-BOYLE

    thanks for the link mate.
    maybe those that refuse to believe what i say and what those that are interviewed in the video i posted would like to read this:-

    FaithFreedom International is a grassroots movement of ex-Muslims. It is created to expose the hidden truth about Islam and to help Muslims leave Islam. We don’t believe Islam can be reformed, but it can be eradicated. Just as light can dissipate darkness, truth will demolish lies

    notice that the site is created and ran by EX-MUSLIMS!!!!

  162. John Marus

    take another shroom dude, let's face it, people suck. Here's another great example of a leader whose message of peace is used to justify horrible acts of humans. You are your own god, you don't need some fairytale. Yesterday is an expired present moment, tomorrow is an anticipated present moment, all we ever have is right now, the present moment. Take responsibility for yourself. Humans don't need all these stories to treat one another with respect and dignity. Shame on our species for being so weak as to need this bullock, and shame on religion for killing us all. And shame on all the windbags here, no one really cares what you have to say except your own ego. cheers

  163. Guest

    Yes! Responsibility and "the now." Beautiful and well put. But I do think peaceful and respectful discourse can be healthy and can also serve to bridge some of the distance between us all ;-)
    Cheers,
    S

  164. Elan S

    Schmozart... while I agree

  165. Vlad The Impaler

    Why would you want to learn the world religions “just to see what they were about”? I hope that was your purpose BEFORE you embarked on your journey. Because, if you still feel those words adequately explain your intent to explore those religions and practices, it doesn’t paint a very good picture. It sounds like you tried them on like a pair of shoes. If I was a follower of a particular faith and I read your words, it wouldn’t sound like you truly and fully explored my faith... which would make me doubt your credibility in your knowledge of that faith. Wouldn’t it be better if you truly and genuinely aligned yourself to each faith with the utmost respect and focus that each deserve?
    The only reason I’m bringing this up is because you go onto say that most of the world religions and practices are a mere result of our psychology; a side effect of our inability to cope with our mortality. Which is OK... but again, if I was a follower of a particular faith, I would find that insulting. For example, Buddhism and Hinduism both place great emphasis on our mortality. It doesn’t force us to create concepts of gods as a result of our resentment of our short lifespan. The concept of reincarnation makes us embrace our mortality... not escape it. In Hinduism, ascension is not about leaving our earthly bodies to be in heaven for eternity. Instead, it’s more abstract. The very concept of the universe representing an endless cycle of Brahma’s sleep/ wake cycle is a proof of this. The universe is created when Brahma is awake for about 4 trillion years. The universe is destroyed when Brahma is asleep for about 4 trillion years. It’s a cycle. So in a way, emphasis is placed on BOTH life AND death equally. That is what is at the heart of reincarnation.
    In Hinduism, it’s not about the destination that results in godhood... it’s the journey. Everything, everywhere, at every point in time is given equal importance. That backs up the belief that god is omnipotent. Taking that into consideration, when you say that humans created god as a result of our longing for something bigger than us is undeserved... don’t you agree?

  166. Guest

    No, I don't agree. However, I do agree that life is all about the journey, and that's why I made it a point to explore and learn. Vlad, your personal path and realization is your own responsibility. It seems like the only person who takes offense at someone honestly trying to understand another's paradigm by fully immersing himself in the world (and worldview) of another is you. I was merely offering a different perspective so as to try and bridge the distance; I never professed to be the world's foremost authority on any particular faith. If you only looked deeper into what I wrote, then you'd realize that it contains absolutely validity. You have to think outside of your normal box because this "immortality striving" to which I was referring automatically stimulates a denial response in most of us. Again, you don't have to agree with it, but at least try to understand the concept.

    Regards...

  167. Vlad The Impaler

    Forgive me for sounding more aggressive than I felt. Well, I do understand the concept you are putting forth. And I do appreciate your honesty and your eagerness to understand all the viewpoints of the world.

    What I was trying to say is that I didn't agree with the way you generalized the religions into one category ... saying that the general concept of god is a humanistic invention to overcome death. I was merely pointing out that not all spiritual view points follow the same pattern. Some paint a different picture of "god". They are all different. I was merely talking about the one point of view that I know the most of... and used it as an example.

    My point was simple. Taking Hinduism as an example where mortals and immortals are painted in such a way that equate mortality and immortality... isn't it unfair to say that Hindus have an unrealistic image of god? ... that their image of god is based on a flaw in their psychology in dealing with our material existence? I know you didn't say that directly. But it's implied, correct?

    In all honesty, Hinduism is a wild card religion. Although many Hindus might not agree, in my point of view, it follows a simple logic... god is omnipotent, all knowing and all being... therefor, ANY and EVERY single view point is a correct view point. This makes any 2 opposing arguments irrelevant, because the correct answer is any answer... both are right.

    So for the sake of enjoying the journey...

  168. Winston Smith

    William Blake said 'All religions are One.' in the late 1700's and he was correct. Not that they all are all the same but that they spring from a common source; the imagination of man. (what he called the divine poetic principle.. and was the highest faculty of man. (He also believed in the demiurgos (Ancient of Days painting and works on Blake by Kathleen Raine) He also said, 'Man can have no idea of anything greater than Man, as a cup cannot contain more than its capaciousness'.

    All religions are a blend of whatever came before and evolve dramatically as society does. I am always amazed by a religious person's ability to believe that he happens to have been born into the at the right time, into the 'one true faith..' and the countless thousands of religions that exist and have existed throughout all time are simply incorrect

    It is not that a creator may not exist but that there is no reason to imagine us as it's prototype or that you would learn anything of it in any holy book..We are a subsequent part of the process of creation and many 'lower life forms' exhibit abilities and characteristics that far exceed our own. Religion is usually tribalism and politics. Mystics, you will find, are not usually bound by tradition.

  169. Winston Smith

    religious people in general, but Muslims especially today seem incredibly easy to stir up. Because their outrage is assured it makes them easily manipulated and a perfect target group for the attainment of ulterior goals. (oil)

    Use the internet to find out the truth about the phony war on terror bc we sure as hell are not gonna get the truth from the corporate media. I liked david chandler's analysis of the 'the terrorism scam' on youtube, and his videos on 911 are guaranteed a place in history,, right alongside Jim Hoffman, Steven E Jones, & Kevin Ryan.

  170. Amanda Stevenson

    Schmozart: I don't think you studied the religions of the world as much as you are trying to portray to your readers. There are over 2,500 religions in this World. One of the biggest keys giving away your lack of knowledge was your mention of "wicca". Schmozart states, "I've even studied Earth Magic (Wicca) and played the role of 'warlock'." To be a warlock means that you took on the role as a traitor to your coven because that's what warlock means. Wicca is also a newer religion which is a little over 50 years old based on some older traditions. If you practiced wicca, that meant that you were merely a wiccan. Not so hard to understand.

  171. James del Valle

    Winston I have no idea what you are talking about but the only danger to anyone from Muslims is brainwashing to be willing to die to overthrow governments, lets not get complacent Muslims only represent a tiny minority in the UK but areas where they do live have been transformed and they are not shy to show their extremist tendancies and I'm not talking about the fake Muslim Anjem Choudrey but the common Muslims who agree with the message, they are being led into a trap and they deserve whatever they get.

  172. ????? ???? ????

    An unbiased doc.

  173. krishna kumar pookat

    Dung Bettle in training.
    I Hope Reincarnation Exists and if it does hope you do come back as something better than a dung beetle and as something to your liking too.
    I have never read such a beautiful view of life in such easy to understand words.
    Regards

  174. Guest

    Semantics my dear. Warlocks are indeed considered male witches in some circles. Merely writing this to enlighten you. It's a broad subject and it seems that you need to do more research.

  175. Amanda Stevenson

    @Schmozart

    A warlock is a traitor to their coven. Period! A male witch is a witch. Just like a male wiccan is a wiccan. Also, remember that not all witches are wiccan, but all wiccans are witches. Wicca is just a little over 70 years old, and it's not as broad of a subject as you think. Those circles you were running around with didn't know anything just like you.

  176. Guest

    Amanda,

    I'm sorry you seem so angry and apparently have to deal with such a heavy chip on your shoulder. My personal experience might be unique and different from your own, which doesn't make it any more right or wrong--just different. But I also know that open minds are very hard to come by these days...

    Moreover, I find it interesting and somewhat sad that my connotative use of a single word could trigger such a rampage...but maybe that says more about you than me. I encourage you to look up the words "understanding" and "empathy" and see how they might fit into the context of your life and that of your child/children.

    Finally, I would like to thank you for reminding me that I really don't know anything. It is my proud recognition of this fact that keeps me humble and striving to evolve...and consequently allows me to read your words with infinite degrees of compassion and gratitude.

    I truly hope you find peace someday.

    ~S

  177. Amanda Stevenson

    @Smozart
    You really thought that your post(s) have triggered anger. On the contrary, it is just conversation. I would ask that you refrain from any commentary about me being a mother. My son and how I raise him is no concern of yours. It is lacking in any empathy/understanding and was done in poor taste. It is one thing to sling words back and forth, but you should really know better than to try and insult a mother's abilities.

    All any of us can do is state what we believe to be true to the best of our abilities. I refrained from saying, "Oh, I studied this and that religion" because I found it irrelevant to the conversation.

    This reminds me of an argument I got into with a close friend who is Muslim. He told me that Egypt has always had the strict Muslim tradition of having the women cover their hair. I told him that was not true. Heck back in the early 70's the Muslim women would walk down the street without any hair covering. It's amazing how over a short period of time things can change.

    We have a very large population of Muslims in my area. I can not go to the grocery store without seeing at least one Muslim family. At first I started to notice how most of them always have this look in their eyes wondering if people are judging them. I sense a wall put up by people's misunderstanding of others based on religion. It makes me feel good to smile and say hello when I see a Muslim women who seems a bit tense at people staring at her because her hair is covered. Every time I do this, I can see their eyes become much brighter and a sincere smile.

    It saddens me to hear about Muslims who are wrongfully imprisoned by our Government without a trial even if they're Americans. You can look it up yourself because they are kept at Guantanamo Bay. It is just as horrific as when we Americans imprisoned Japanese Americans during WWII in concentration camps.

    I believe that you and I both were being selfish when we started to go too much off of topic. Really who cares how you or I use the word warlock. What does it have to do with this video commentary we are posting in? Nothing. We are both adults and should have known better. Shame on me for doing so.

    I really enjoyed this video, and it was very accurate. I normally don't watch documentaries twice, but I'll probably watch this one quite a few more times because I enjoyed it.

    I thank you for your enduring compassion towards my comments.

  178. Lacy Smitch

    @Schmozart Dude, I have read your posts, and you are definitely not practicing what you preach.

    1) You are not empathetic or compassionate as you're claiming.
    2) She politely asked you to keep the conversation civil which you didn't do.
    3) She changed the subject to something more relevant to the documentary these comments are for.
    4) You are pretending to be the more intelligent adult here but have not backed up any claims with evidence.
    5) If you wanted to be more level headed about it, I am certain that you could have posted something about warlock meaning male witch to back up your claims. You said yourself about the internet but are not taking your own advise. How can a complete stranger take you at your word?
    6) What does her blog have to do with the conversation? You are trying to throw in a lot of things about her that are pointless to try and purposefully bring a rise out of her. As far as I have seen, she communicated her thoughts very well. You went out of your way to comment on how she raises her children. What business is that of yours or any of ours?
    7) I had a chance to look at her blog and really do love it. I bookmarked it. It is well designed and professionally written.

    Take your own advise about being more tolerant and understanding. You made a fool out of yourself.

    Peace to you!

  179. Guest

    Lacy,

    Thank you for making a fool of yourself by jumping into this conversation. If you read Amanda's previous posts (and the non-moderated version), you would've seen how insulting she was. She could've presented her opinions a little more tactfully. She knows nothing about me, yet she insulted my knowledge or alleged lack thereof. That's just plain stupid. I at least did research and gave her some brass tacks about the way I felt she came off and kindly suggested that she make a note of it--for herself and anyone she may be impacting on a daily basis.

    But regarding parenting, I will offer this--even though I was NOT making disparaging comments about her as a parent. I was merely offering the notion that her behaviors and actions will have an impact on everyone around her, including her own children. With that said and having two children of my own, I am all about making sure that children get the benefits of good parenting. And if parents are acting like idiots in public, then I will be concerned for those children. Anyone who will tell a complete stranger in an online comment forum that he or she "doesn't know anything" suffers from an imbalance. Truly. But then again, maybe you're part of the problem and can't quite grasp what I'm talking about here.

    I'm honest and will return the volleys when necessary. And I don't walk on eggshells around those who feel it their duty to judge others, which is exactly what she and you have now done.

    I do, in fact, totally practice what I preach. I really am the most compassionate, generous, selfless and non-judgmental person. However, I have very little tolerance for ignorant, seemingly self-entitled people. The range is broad and I'm not quite sure where you stand in relation to that group of people. But wherever you are, GET IT TOGETHER.

    Peace back at ya'...

  180. Guest

    I agree i don't see one disrespect up to here. The first disrespect in the next comment appears to have been taken away by the principal.
    az

  181. Jeffrey

    Documentaries are meant to enlighten and create platform to understand one another. Brothers and sisters, please write respectfully and stop spewing hatred to one another. To be fair, this documentary is produced by BBC in its effort to create bridges between civilisations...Islamic is one of them.

    If you want to find out the truth, read widely and seek knowledgeable unbiased people to learn from. God says there is no compulsion in religion...so to each his own and be smart about it. Many governments manipulate politics and religion to force people to believe or unbelieve, to be a communist or not.

    A few people/organisations are known world-wide to be racist and anti-Muslims whose propaganda is to misinform us; so beware:
    1)Pamela Gellar
    2)Robert Spencer
    3)Daniel Pipes
    4)Websites linked to them or people like them or just plain misinformation: Jihadwatch, answering -islam,Faith International Freedom.

    Peace and Good luck to all!

  182. MohammedSafwan

    First off - You too Start using your brain too...

    Free Will is not about to be born like Super-Man (without any disabilities) It is about Becoming Super-Man(surpassing once disabilities)...
    It is our ability to think and recognize our existence & define our world & utilize the resources available in the best interest of mankind.
    Some people learn about disabilities, pain & anguish of people & think all this is due to there is no Allah (A very popular Atheist argument of = Argument of Free Will, Argument of Evil or Pain). Such conclusion that Atheism or Secularism draw is due to the fact that of your pessimism, hopelessness, problems suffered in life, brainwashing that is going around you in the name of Religion & Atheism(I know you are fed up with this). All this has cocooned around you and have hampered your vision of the world & decreased your hope. Therefore you think you have solved the problem around you (whether disability or whatever) by simply blaming the other person in the room....Dont you think, that even you play a part in it?

    Islam says: Hopelessness = Disbelief in Allah....
    Islam emphasizes that Disbelief in self = Disbelief in Allah. So believe in yourself, think positive, think hope...

    In Islam there is no such concept of Original Sin or people are born with certain conditions due to their original sin or Karma of their previous life(there is no previous life or born or re-born cycle system)....
    Islam says: Everybody is born Innocent & sinless. Any condition people are born with are their granted capabilities to lead a life. There is no point blaming Allah for all this(like some religious guys do). Or arguing that all this is due to there is no Allah(like the Atheist do). With our Free will what we need to understand is there is a Will above us that is of Allah & have firm faith that whatever He Will is good for us. Yes this might sound over optimism or as Atheist think the God Delusion. But No! Think, think again our Human Natural behavior is that of a Fighter, a Fighter against all odds, a nature of Never Say Die Attitude, We are born enemies of Odd. And this Nature of ours is a manifestation of Free Will. The Free Will naturally fights, make choice and gets the Best out of us. And this is the power Allah has given us over other creatures. The downside of this is our choice not to follow our natural instinct and give lead to hopelessness = Disbelief in Allah.
    I appreciate your hard work & charity that you extend to the disabled. This kind behavior of yours is truly the manifestation of Free Will. Allah created us to be a unity not alienate ourselves from other human beings. If our brother/sister is disable we can become his/her extend faculty or organ & bring happiness to their lives, this proves the unity of Mankind. We dont know what Allah wills, but we know for sure what we can do with our Will. We muslims believe that whatever we face in life whether Good or Bad, both are from Allah, none have power to do Good or Bad to us except Him. And we thank him for whatever he grant us.
    As a Secularist or Atheist it is upto your Free Will choice to accept Allah(Allah is not any ancient pagan moon diety or stuff like that) or not accept Him. Allah makes it clear that Our Acceptance or Rejection of Him will cause no harm or any dispute over His Sovereignty of Creations. Our Acceptance or Rejection is solely our choice of destiny.

    Also if you are some religious guy - Remember just believing in Allah & simply sitting & praying next to the bed of a dying or disable person will not cure him/her or save them from death(dont be illogical). Allah is not a magician or trickster to keep on pleasing you with whatever magic or so called "miracle" you demand of Him. No, No Allah has already given us a wonderful thing called Brain, we can manifest our Free Will utilizing our Brain & doing good to humanity. The Miracles are Not in those stupid camps where miracles are done by these so called "God Men", making people act like monkeys jumping, falling, crawling & dancing.

    About what you spoke about Muslims - All I can say is the media continuously keep people ignorant of each others. I dont know why do they do this heinous thing of dividing mankind. Yes there are a FEW people who cause trouble as muslims, but as I emphasize they are FEW. There are lot many muslims that do good & beneficial things in society but media is some how oblivious to these things. I believe Media in itself is a Terrorist as they keep people away from each other by continuously feeding fear in the heart of people against people. We must grow up from this West vs. East, Black vs. Whites, Believers vs. Non-believers - I guarantee Islam do not propagate any such divide. Not even Religious divide of Religious or Non-Religious. Just because of few Jack-ashes do bad things and create some spurious laws to approve of their evil deeds, we cant paint the whole society with the same color...should we?

    Please come out of Islam phobia...Dont fuel the divide by your ignorance...

  183. MohammedSafwan

    Atheist = Irrational... why? because they are definite that there is nothing...they came from nothing and will be nothing...therefore fully brainwashed to believe that they are just socially responsible as much as they think...therefore in case this world was in hands of Atheist the people would have to live on their mercy or Atheist personal choice of justice...

    Just imagine a hypothetical situations:

    (1) One Atheist believe it is socially ok to steal therefore his act = to no offense to other human and if the Atheist have the power he/she can simply prove he/she is right...What a profound Atheist idea of Justice, love or whatever...

    (2) Atheist kills a innocent child, because he/she think it was socially right according to him/her. And if he/she has the power they can simply prove they are right again...Probably they might say the child was a evolutionary abomination...another profound Atheist logic

    (3) Atheist is a homosexual, and he/she proves he/she is right saying they are simply a evolutionary innovation...big time bull ___another profound atheist logic

    (4) Atheists have sex out of marriage...and the Atheist man think he is done with his need and whatever happens in the womb is the woman's responsibility. Atheist woman think she will simply get rid of the burden with an abortion...or well if the child is born leave it on street, or if she think it is socially just she might opt for single parenting, or an orphanage. Another profound atheist idea of social justice...whatever with the word called family!

    (5) Finally Atheist will build the most modern society in the world ... a Society by the bas___trds , for the bas___trds...

    And all this is because they have this firm faith that there is no Allah and nobody will judge ..

    Very Funny!!!!!!!

  184. Vlatko

    @Mohammed Safwan,

    Atheist = Irrational... why? because they are definite that there is nothing...they came from nothing and will be nothing

    Atheists are not definite that there is nothing. They're definite that all scientific data available up to today is pointing that there is nothing. If for any reason some data appears which proves the existence of something (God), they will simply change their opinions. On the other hand you're definite that there is something without any proof whatsoever. Who is now being irrational?

    Your hypothetical situations are just plain wrong, misleading, generalized and full of stereotypes. They do not portray atheists at all.

    Anyone can play that game. Here are some theist hypothetical situations:

    (1) One theist believes that keeping women in inferior position is morally right since "the book" tells him so. And since "the book" is the word of God, he can morally justify that action. What a profound theist idea of justice...

    (2) Theist believes that anyone who wage war against God and His Messenger and strive to spread corruption in the land should be punished by death, crucifixion, the amputation of an alternate hand and foot or banishment from the land. That is so because "the book" tells him so. And if he has some power he will do that. Another profound theist logic.

    (3) Theist is not homosexual. He says "Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to." Why? Because "the book" says so. Another profound theist logic.

    (4) Theist will not have sex out of marriage. Why? Because "the book" prescribes death penalty for adultery when witnessed by four people. Another profound theist idea of social justice.

    (5) Finally theists will build modern society governed by laws of prejudice, discrimination, fear, superstitions..etc. Why? Because they think that there is invisible man, up in the sky, who watches everything you do, every minute of every day, and the invisible man has a list of things which he does not want you to do.

    Very funny indeed!

    P.S. DISCLAIMER: Not all theists are encompassed with the hypotheses above. They're presented only as counter argument for @Mohammed Safwan.

  185. illy

    Because God gives us the choice to do good to one another. See, those bad things happening wakes up the goodness in us to DO something about those bad situations. If there was no bad in the world, then how would it bring out our solidarity, charity and helpfullness in us? That's what free will is about, decide to ignore the badness in the world do nothing or do something about it to make the world better. Become close and united with our brothers and sisters, love and help one another.

    So instead of complaining to God about it, we should be grateful to have opportunities to do good in our lives, to help out! It is one of the greatest things we humans do. Charity is one of the most important points in Islam.

  186. Achems_Razor

    @Mohammed Safwan:

    Amazing! everything that you have mentioned is in the holy book of terrors the OT! and the Quran, except it is your god sanctioned, but! and the kicker" hard pressed to find more horrible morbid outright scum of the Earth acts, did I mention sex? incest, (Spell) phedophilia, Etc: as is in your holy books, and talking of the Quran also. Can't forget about the 72 virgin thing.
    Am in agreement with Vlatko on this.

  187. PatricktheAtheist

    Islam is not a religion of peace. Their holy book is not structured like the christian or jewish holy book; rather, it is the account of one man describing his life and actions as the perfect man: the prophet who all muslims should strive to be like. It prescribes a way of government, a system of laws, and essentially a way everyone, even those who are not muslims, should act and live. Read the book. Mohammed was a horrible warlord who tortured, killed, and destroyed. He married and had sex with 10 year old girls and had entire tribes beheaded down to the last child. He tortured those who would not tell him where their money was hidden and killed their families in front of them. Sadly, muslims are commanded and strive to be like Mohammed

    The good he did and the reforms he brought are archaic by today's standards and, since the book's accounts must be taken literally on pain of death, cannot be updated or adapted to today's world. One such reform is shari'a law. While such a code may have been advanced for tribal arabia, it is barbaric (perhaps worse) today. Most terrible is not the system itself or the fact that it cannot be altered or reinterpreted, but that it is the duty of every muslim to impose shari'a law on the rest of the world. The books says it is ok for muslims to lie and cheat those who are not muslim to further islam. I find this appalling.

    Please, educate yourselves. Read the book if only to learn that it is not a book of stories, but a commandment to live a certain way. Learn that it demands for you to understand it literally and even tells you how to resolve contradictions within it. Finally, apply what you learn from reading it to your experiences with islam. Hopefully, if I offended you, you will respond not with lectures or useless comments, but by doing your own research on islam instead of watching documentaries and taking other peoples' descriptions (like mine) of it for true. If you haven't read the book and/or don't understand that it is both an example of how to live and a commandment of how to live, you've missed something.

  188. MohammedSafwan

    Patrick,

    Qur'an is not an autobiography or biography of any person, including Muhammad(pbuh)

    Qur'an is a book of guidance & a warner

    The documentary describes the life of Muhammad. And nowhere it provide any hint to what you accuse Muhammad about.

    What source of books you read to gain such different knowledge about Muhammad?

    Thanks for acknowledging that Qur'an is not structured like the Christian or Jewish holy books...Yes Qur'an is Indeed Unique...

    Please out of your ignorance do not accuse others of Ignorance

    Please out of your lack of understanding do not accuse a personality...Bring your proof with such accusation?

    After watching this documentary when you write such thing all it proves is: that you are blind folded and are not using your intellect...

  189. MohammedSafwan

    @ Atheist (Achems_Razor/Vlatko)

    The irrationality of Atheist lie in their false belief (after all a belief) that all scientific data is pointing towards nothing! Really? Which scientific data are you talking about?

    The very view of Atheism contradict Science; Wherein all hypothesis, arguments, accumulated facts, theories & Laws depend on empirical reasoning, therefore on this ground of empiricism, Atheist cannot prove the non-existence of that which cannot be observed, experience or experimented with empirically. This also holds good for the Atheist notion of "Nothing" because "Nothing" needs to be Defined and Proved that "Nothing" exist...just saying: "Absence or lack of Belief" is a infact a very weak philosophical argument which is again artificially developed from an environment one has been brought up & deeply rooted in an individual or groups BELIEF or POINT OF VIEW ...

    About the hypothetical argument presented by me, what it actually meant was the consequential inclination of an Atheist behavior towards development of a hypocritical society that is full of anarchy & must live on the mercy of a few powerful fickle minds... Rather I must say it is not a hypothetical argument but indeed a historically observed events that took place & continue to take place as communism, Marxism etc in the name of building a society, Eugenics(Social Darwinism) discrimination of humans in the name of experiment to build future generations call it modern superstition, Malthusian Theory(ghost father of Darwinian theory) in the name of economic management or rather economic discrimination of society...Atheism has not had a golden past or is not having a promising present or future ahead because of these issues...

    However, I believe we all discuss so much because we all en-vision a blissful society. And the question of dispute that Islam has against Atheism is:

    (1) Why do Atheism or Atheist are some how so inclined and so readily buy the anti-Islamic theories, acts, propaganda that are spread in the name of Islam and to mock Islam? Islam does not mind criticism - You are welcome to argue the belief of Islam - but do it in a clinical way stick to a topic, bring your proof, state your argument, and finallylisten to the other side story before jumping to conclusion...

    (2) Why do not Atheist have the patience to listen to what actually the muslim believe and what according to muslim Islam is? this behavior is ultimately leading to a lot of misunderstanding

    (3) Why Atheist are in such a hurry to come to hasty conclusion by just having a simplistic view of world & Islam(which is as stupid as the world is flat!)? There are so many factors that stir up to build societies & civilizations. It reminds me of one of the joke Russell Peter said in his show: "The media shows you an accident & an Asian, The media shows you a bomb blast & a shouting Arab and our brains are simply driven to formulate hasty conclusion with such event reporting.

    (4) Why Atheist are lacking in information when it comes to Islamic concept of God? Why do Atheist believe such ideas as the muslim God is a "Moon God" named Allah etc? NO NO, this is such a wrong idea....None of the muslim believe in such a "Moon God" or "Moon Allah"...In Islam we have no such idea of Allah that is associated with any physical model or mental picture...

    (5) Another misconception amongst Atheist is: Submission to the Will of Allah will steal away from humans the intellect? Why do not Atheist try to understand what Muslim mean when they say - "Submission to the Will of Allah?

    If you have the patience we can discuss, but if you show the bigotry of - What I know is Absolute & I am not Ready to Shake my Belief - then you will continuously live in the Island of your mind. Ultimately leading to living in a "lonely scary world" created by you for yourself...Its upto you to now understand how rational are your belief?

  190. Vlatko

    @Mohammed Safwan,

    About the hypothetical argument presented by me, what it actually meant was the consequential inclination of an Atheist behavior towards development of a hypocritical society that is full of anarchy

    OK what do you say about my hypothetical argument, (which is not hypothetical at all).

  191. Jamie19786

    Mohammed I agree with you 100 persent.Just started to get into religion and started reading the bible now I am going to read the Koran 3 times like I have the Bible.The world needs to put race religion and money aside and do whats best for all man kind.I fully belive 9/11 was an inside job and is being used to have none muslems think bad of your religion.The truth is the only holy book that I found evil and now way from GOD or Allah is the Talmid and not the waterd down version the real one not many none Jews see.Like Jesus is burning in hell type language and all none Jews are beast and no better than a dog.Well to me a book like that might as well been written by the devil himself.Its complete evil and I would not wast my time with more than I already know and am not taking it out of contex at all.I pray GOD will lead me down the right path.As for all the christians not all but many beliving not supporting Israel no matter the evil they commit goes against there faith.Christians are considerd saved by Jesus not the Jews and when he spoak about saving Israel he spoak of the one that comes from heaven not the evil earthly Israel that was punnished for much less than the evil they commite now and since 1948.Now racism against Jews there are good ones and evil Talmad reading zionist ones.I speak badly about the country Israel because of the evil they commit and there usery but always let it be known I belive GOD has no cast system and neither do I and now there are great Jews like Rabbi Wiess and many others.But also there are many evil devil worshiping Jews also.ASA LAMA LAKUM hope I spelled that right.Peace be with you.

  192. MohammedSafwan

    @ Vlatko,

    The explanation is a bit long kindly bear with it...

    OK what do you say about my hypothetical argument, (which is not hypothetical at all).
    Vlatko, about your hypothetical argument that you think are “not hypothetical at all” is not firmly based on either what Islam says or current world reality. Those arguments reside as Islam & current world reality in the brain of few Muslims & non-Muslims. Contrary to this what Islam says & the current world reality to it is absolutely different. I give you a break-up of what the reality is from the combined perspective of Islam & current world:

    The Ground Realities are:

    (1) Inferiority of Women :-

    Islam says: WOMEN & MEN ARE EQUAL.

    Qur’an Chapter: 4 – An-Nisaa (WOMEN) –Verse - 1 (4:1)
    O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women. Be careful of your duty toward Allah in Whom ye claim (your rights) of one another, and toward the wombs (that bare you ). Lo! Allah hath been a Watcher over you.

    Qur’an Chapter: 16-An-Nahl (THE BEE) Verse – 97 (16:97)

    Whosoever doeth right, whether male or female, and is a believer, him verily We shall quicken with good life, and We shall pay them a recompense in proportion to the best of what they used to do.

    And hence there are numerous other verses in the Qur’an that makes clear that there is no discrimination between a Man & a Woman. None of them is superior to another (both created from a single soul). Both are dutiful to one another and the duty is based on Love. The Qur’an makes it clear that man & woman are interdependent (They are equals) and placing anyone superior over one will cause an imbalance.
    The confusion comes in because of the mis-understanding of the Qur’an and the verse usually quoted to justify their mis-understanding is:

    Qur’an Chapter: 4 – An-Nisaa (WOMEN) –Verse - 34 (4:34)

    Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath men the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great.

    People simply mis-understand this verse and come to hasty conclusions such as: “Well Islam says women are inferior”, “Islam approve of men beating women” etc…

    But the actual understanding of the verse “Men are in charge of women” is: because in Islam THE HEADSHIP, (I repeat) THE HEADSHIP of Family ECONOMICALLY, SOCIALLY is of a Man, therefore it is the responsibility of Men Out of Love to TAKE CARE (it does not mean inferiority or beat your women) of women in all aspects from food, clothing, shelter, security, sex, even tolerate her tantrums etc…So even if a woman has a lot of wealth, even if she earns ; MAN HAS TO STILL TAKE CARE. One can understand this headship in the sense as in Corporate Business World where in it is the motto “go with one face for business” so Man is the One Face or Representative of his family in society. Therefore if the family misbehaves it is Man who should take blame of the misconduct & take action to correct them, just like a company does…Imagine if company just allow the internal individuals or organization to settle things by themselves it just won’t work and in the same way the company will highly be prone to external attacks if there is no One Face or a Lead to represent & defend. Also the reasoning as Muslims we find why the headship is placed on Man (not because Islam follows a patriarchal life style) is because biological a woman undergoes a lot of transition in her life time comparing to men and that the role of a woman as a wife, mother, sister, daughter,(also if we take in consideration of working woman) is so daunting enough there is no point burdening the same person continuously.

    In return Allah says the Woman to be OBEDIENT & GUARDING (it does not mean Men are superior or women you deserve to be beaten). What it means is for all the care & kindness & love shown by the man have a exchange of the same care & kindness & love by listening to him (obeying) and taking care of him emotionally, socially, taking care of the home, children and herself(GUARDING)simply doing what she is best at – Social Skills.
    This clearly shows that by their natural behavior man & woman are complimentary to each other…None is superior
    And in Islam Obedience does not sum up to blind following, Woman has all rights to argue and fight for her rights. And she can even take a legal stand against her husband if the Man is found to violate her rights, rights of the children, rights of the parents, rights of the society. Therefore with the Islamic idea of obedience there comes with it conditions & limits of obedience.
    Now based on conditions of obedience, in case the man finds the woman being rebellious & found of mis-conduct WITH PROOF then the Man has the rights to take some Corrective Actions: like to warn her of her mis-behavior, not sleep with her – not have sex (an act very hard to pull off by men), and scourge them (does not mean beat) warn her the consequence of her actions and that it may lead to divorce (the last resort). Therefore in all clear terms there is no beating involved or man has any right to say woman is inferior and ridicule her(even if she is wrong).
    But the above Corrective Action can be taken IF & ONLY IF - the Man is sound both Morally & Ethically & Above All HAS A PROOF, if not he cannot speak or take any corrective action whatsoever, even if the woman is behaving rebellious. And here the matter must be settled legally. Because the very rebellious action of woman, might be a response to the bad & immoral behavior of the man. One may here counter argue that Woman should also have the same rights of Corrective Action. And yes indeed Woman have it. Yes woman can admonish him, banishing from sex Yes she can do this too, but she should be smart enough to do it in a clever way else there are CHANCES(not all men are so) of rape & threat of life (can’t rule out the physical capabilities). Therefore at the very first instance when a woman sees her husband not treating her properly, not taking care of her, Islam gives rights to Woman to approach the court of law ASAP & if the problem cannot be resolved then to get a Separation/Divorce. And the court of Law will take strict action against the man in question & prescribe punishment in the time that is present in the land.

    (2) Current World Situation:-

    The current world situation of woman is a sad story in all sort of division of world imaginable. But I hereby take for example the “Western World” & the “Islamic World”:

    Western World:- Since the world wars & industrial revolution the west has smoked out its complete male population in wars & factories. And not satisfied even after doing this they started exploiting the other half of the population – The Woman Folks. In the name of progress & liberation of Woman they brain washed a complete population to be exploited in factories, offices, streets and where not. Before in the pre world war & pre industrial revolution era woman at the least were getting beaten up by their husband(nowhere I approve of this by saying so) but post the war & industrial revolution she was exploited every day as a worker, as a show piece, as a sex slave(needless to say by several men), sometime beaten by her boss, sometime beaten by her exploiter down the street and yet next day she was expected to get back to the same routine cycle as she was bearing the burden of single handedly bringing up a family because obviously the male population was out their fighting, dying and becoming disabled in wars. All this has snowball & eventually led to a new breed of brain washed population that believed in a fashionable artificially created liberation that saw great economic growth and considered that economic growth as the benchmark of their so called advanced civilization. No matter how much the relationship between man & woman was degrading the society obsessed with its economic growth never had a time to care about it. Instead of worrying & caring about this they glorified it…Movies & TV portrayed men & women with illicit behavior as hip & happening and the majority of the folks followed. The whole process being so scandalous that it started to make a society live in a dream world. Where personal gratification was the pinnacle of success & happiness…All joined this band wagon ultimately woman & man were nothing but a commodity that could be bought and sold on demand…There were indeed few Laws, but those were good enough in the books...However the point is social life never improved. Therefore we do not have a better picture to look at if we are thinking about women liberation & equality…

    Islamic World:- Since the end of crusades, and followed by the colonization era to the culmination point of world wars, the Islamic world had a fair glimpse of the western style of life. A life style that they completely abhorred. Muslim world was engrossed in their own self gratification of their glorious past and never had a time to look at their present. A present that was torn out by its trivial wars, colonization slavery, world wars & continuous fall of education & economics. One can say they simply turned a blind eye. So the few religious scholars that were alive and were seeing the unstoppable continuous import of western culture in their countries decided to guide their people and the best way forward they devised was backward. Although the teaching of these scholar was not of being conservative, but due to lack of proper governance the mob thinking & mob rule took over & the idea of best way forward is backward was understood us conservatism. In this conservative attitude the Muslims started ignoring education & knowledge just because it was coming from west that led generations together to lack behind progressing world. The muslims did not have the brain enough to differentiate between the corrupt western culture & the advanced western knowledge. Even when someone (like Allama Iqbal, Leopold Lewis etc) try uplifting these people from such thoughts it was not of great help…So in conservatism, lack of education(both for men & women), poverty & wars a society spiraled down to degradation. In their degradation they forgot the teaching of Islam and took less care of understanding the Qur’an. The society was simply divided between a narrow thought of Man the Bread winner Woman the householder. So if any sort of education was available they let the Man go utilize it as they thought it will help him earn more & not because he will gain knowledge. There was no place for knowledge. Life was brought down to the utter meaning of survival…In such a society it is but obvious there came up the evil of beating of women, women are inferior(self inflicted) that was supported by the adulterated mentality in woman of tolerance of such behavior, BUT IN NO CASE ISLAM PROPAGATED SUCH THINGS...these things hardly had any backing from Islam.

    But to the adversity of Muslims & the people of the world at large, few people interpreted the verses of Qur’an in a wrong way and are spreading mis-understanding and discord in this world.
    I don’t know if I can place the Atheists who comment here on this website as the perpetrators of this criminal mis-understanding or another group of victims of this mis-understanding…

    I hope I made the point clear...

  193. MohammedSafwan

    Walaikum As Salaam Jamie,

    The right way to spell in English is: As Salaam Alaikum.

    Do not degrade any Jew or Jewish book. Criticize but criticize with proof, just dont speak anything whatever comes to your heart.
    Do not degrade or speak ill of Christian & the bible either. Criticize with proof again.
    Good you have thought of reading the Qur'an. Qur'an is not a book to just simply read a number of times. It is a book that directly reasons with you. You need to read it carefully, if possible find someone in person to help you understand the book. And if the person you found is not so well equipped,do your own research preferably in this case what you can do is buy different translation of a few authors & do a comparative study. I suggest you can follow the below authors work:

    (1)Muhammad-Asad(Leopold Lewis)-Islam-Translation - The Message of The Quran (with commentaries)

    (2)Meaning of Quran English_Translation_by_Pikhtal

    (3)Yusuf Ali - The Meaning of the Noble Qur'an with-commentaries

  194. Vlatko

    @MohammedSafwan,

    Typical answer. Quoting from the scriptures and then adding your own interpretation.

    Look around Mohammed. WOMEN & MEN ARE NOT EQUAL. Especially not in religious sense. No matter what you say, or no matter how many scriptures you quote, the following remains true:

    1. Husbands are a degree above their wives in a legal context.

    2. Men are superior to women in a domestic context.

    3. In dividing the inheritance, a female gets half of a male’s share.

    4. A woman’s testimony often counts half of a man’s testimony.

    5. A man can marry up to 4 wives, a woman can marry only one man.

    6. A man can marry a non-Muslim, a woman cannot.

    7. Women must wear the veil. In some radical communities the whole body is covered except the eyes.

    Bonus, modern facts:

    8. In some countries women are not allowed to vote or be elected.

    9. In some countries women are not allowed to drive.

    ---------------------------------------------------

    And you didn't mention the other arguments from my hypothetical situation (which as you've already seen, is not so hypothetical).

  195. Epicurus

    should i even bother exposing the nonsense of Mohammed's first post and all his silly assumptions about atheists?

    maybe i will wait till Vlatko is finished showing him how countries that claim to follow the rules of Islam treat women.

    its funny when he says the man is the head of the household like a company. you run your family like a company? ouch....

  196. Achems_Razor

    @Epicurus:

    Yes, please do reply to Mohammed's first post, I definitely can say without hesitation that you will be able to knock his socks off much better than I.

  197. Vlatko

    @MohammedSafwan,

    I'm not trying to impose the western lifestyle onto Muslims, and I'm not saying that that lifestyle is the correct one. I'm not coming from a western society.

    Look at this honestly and re-think if a woman, as a living being, is treated equally or not.

    How would you feel if someone was treating you the same way?

    Islam is not unique in this context. Almost every religion puts women in inferior position. Why? Because religion is a cultural product, psychological blanket, cover up for our animal instincts.

    In the animal kingdom, females are inferior in most of the aspects. We just carry those animal instincts, which are morally justified by our cultures, religions, societies. Even though we are civilized, deep down we are still animals.

    But we don't need to do that anymore. The sooner we realize that, the better.

    This conversation begun when you've tried to portray atheists as amoral anarchists, simply because they don't agree with your scriptures. Theist society can be equally portrayed as such, as I've shown you.

  198. MohammedSafwan

    @ Vlatko,

    I know you are not trying to impose anything on the muslims. But for sure you have repeated the accusation the silly critics of Islam have put across. And those silly criticism definitely carry a current of ridicule of culture & Islam. I simply unveiled it for you...

    I am sorry, but I differ from your understanding of "EQUALITY"
    As I stated already in Islam Equality does not mean both parties will do the same thing, act in the same role. In Islam life is not a play where all the people act in the same role. Imagine every citizen of America starts acting as President of America? Is it feasible...?
    In the Animal Kingdom female is not inferior to the male. The basic thing is female is biologically different & male is biologically different and both have different roles to play that compliment each other. And the Animals very well recognize this fact & act accordingly. So this does not mean inferiority or superiority. It simply means Balance of Life.

    Islam is indeed UNIQUE...And I don't say this because I am a fanatic or intolerant. I say this because Islam is Nature's way of Life(And way of Life = Religion in Islam, it is being in sync with your very own nature & the nature outside) for the Intellectual being. Islam recognize the difference in nature(biological, moral & intellectual) of both Man & Woman. Islam also appreciate the Animal Instinct of humans & makes it a religious obligation to fulfill those Animal Instincts, but in an organized way. Therefore Islam is not any psychological blanket. Islam actually Unveils all false curtains drawn on humans. Islam simply says: "Look Human this is your Nature: you are animal at one hand but you are the noblest at the other hand, you have the greatest passion for dominance at one hand but you are the most compassionate at the other hand and so on...So Strike the Balance, get in sync with the nature - Get Organized"
    The problem why we human find it so difficult to get organized is because of our Intellectual Capacity(Free Will) You can say:It is a Gift, It is a Curse. And hence Islam is the answer for mastering this Intellectual Capacity(Free Will)
    In Animal Kingdom you see each & every kingdom is so organized. Even the Ants behave in an organized manner. The only Animal that is un-organized is Man, becoz we have rebel against our own nature.
    Islam speaks of this same organization. Islam says how to get organized, and strikes right at the Nucleus of Organization that is FAMILY. But the rebellious nature of Man is amazing - For example:- See the comment of:Epicurus its funny when he says the man is the head of the household like a company. you run your family like a company? ouch....
    I say: Yes indeed we muslims try run our families like a company like an organization. And we see no shame in it, All animals in this world live in organized way so do we. And we see no shame or feel any inferiority complex in placing a person amongst us as our Lead. We are organized under one head & happy.
    Therefore we muslims see no reason for not following or reason to leave Islam. Because we see ever more the need than anytime to follow Islam. At the same time we do acknowledge the facts of a few social, moral & culture evils that are in our societies. But we do not blame Allah & Islam for our follies...

    You tell me why should we dis-believe in Allah:-

    ~Allah understand our nature so well,
    ~Allah helped us to live in an organized way
    ~Allah continuously guided us by his messengers
    ~Allah made us believe in human messengers rather than some stone, natural lightning or philosophical thoughts etc.
    ~Allah taught us the patience & restored our trust in ourselves & each other
    ~Allah provided us with knowledge through his messengers
    ~Allah continuously reason with our intellect(scientific,social,moral) and yet Trust in our intellectual capabilities & give us the creative freedom to devise & better the world
    ~Allah clears our thoughts from believing in hocus pocus thing & direct us to the purpose of our life.
    ~Allah gives the utmost liberty to us to chose to Accept or Reject Him, His Message, His Messengers

    One cant stop but Love & Truly Trust in Allah . Because He never let down us, even when we let Him down. When we were defeated in life, He made us believe in ourselves through His Messengers & Messages (not made us believe in stones, rituals or blood or flesh of any person for redemption or anything - no flimsy concepts in Islam) restored our faith in ourselves & inspired us to re-built our world again...Why should not we believe in such Allah?

    This conversation begun because Atheist continuously portrayed Islam in the wrong perspective without a shred of Proof. They have openly accused Personalities without a shred of Proof. And the greatest proof of this behavior of Atheist is spread across this very website...And You yourself are witness to it...All I did here was to debunk the myth the Atheist hold against Islam
    The argument Atheist have is that they cant see such Allah. Because for the Atheist seeing is everything. They cant believe in a Message from Allah why? because they were not present when the message was received, because they expect the message to come to them directly from the skies, because they want Allah to work like a magician and act to their greedy desire of fixing things & all their problems for them in a jiffy every time they demand,because Atheist do not want to believe in Man(Messengers of God) & the Messages although the Messengers says: scrutinize the Message with your intellect it is Indeed from your Lord, Your Creator, Your Sustainer, Because Atheist do not believe in themselves & their very Nature!
    But instead the Atheist are obsessed with their self-righteousness & try to fabricate faults out of the Message & the Messenger in the name of criticism & scrutiny which is not sound.

    Indeed for all this Allah says to the Atheists: You do whatever you wish to do. But remember you have to return to ME and that day WE will show you what you doubted about...And there is no Escape then...

  199. Leofwin

    Can someone explain this documentary to me? It seems like there's three episodes, but each episode is the same episode . . .

  200. PatricktheAtheist

    We should disbelieve in the islamic god and his murdering prophet because they bring death and enslavement to the world. They want to kill anyone who speaks out against them or even jokes about their religion; in short, they would abolish free speech. Furthermore listen to the arguments they put forth: That Mohammed fool two posts below this post explains that women are treated differently in islam because nature gave different roles to males and females. As an athiest, I agree that women are animals, so are men, but our society has evolved and we no longer treat women like breeding stock. While the rights islam gave women may have been advanced to a group of desert dwelling nomads, those same rights are insulting by today's standards. According to mohammed here, the hierarchical relationship between a man and a woman is akin to the relationship between a citizen and his president! (Damn I wish women treated me like I was the president...) Forget all the benefits a society gains from emancipating women (such as economic growth) forcing women into a lower social class than men is arbitrary and unethical and any religion that proposes to do so should be spoken against even if speaking means risking our lives as it does when speaking against islam. I'm sure muslims have other equally enlightened reasons for all the other crappy religious laws they want to impose upon society. Let's listen (if a muslim will answer) why those who convert from islam to another religion must be executed! -that is if any will explain why. But I'm sure one will and in a day when we are trying to abolish capitol punishment the answer will be just as uninspiring as the all the other reasons why society should adopt islamic law.

  201. PatricktheAtheist

    Portrayed islam in the wrong perspective?? Islam has portrayed itself in a manner fitting and worthy of criticism. You haven't debunked anything; all you've done is preach myth and fear. If I were trying to make people fear Thor or Zeus I would talk in manner similar to you. From the few posts of yours I've read, it's pretty clear that you aren't capable of debunking anything. If you would just shut up more people might feel sorry for you. But if you want to debunk something, I'll give you the chance: why should those who convert away from islam (to another religion) be executed? To introduce the world to sharia law you are going to need to convince a lot of people why they should have to die if islam doesn't work for them.

  202. PatricktheAtheist

    I feel sorry for you

  203. MohammedSafwan

    Patrick,

    The "President example" in my earlier post was not about inferiority or superiority. Do yourself a favor Just go through my previous post once again...

    Please explain what insults Islam has caused to women?
    &
    Please explain which "Today's Standards" are you talking about? where are those "standards"?

    women as breeding stock? Well you are misinformed, in Islam this is not true...
    Bring your proof before speaking any non-sense in the name of freedom of speech or criticism...

    Apostasy
    In Islam there is no such command to execute an apostate.
    What is the point of Free Will if the apostates are to be executed for rejecting faith?
    If you have in mind a particular situation you have encountered bring forth, lets analyze?

    No body can please everyone. If I preach myth & propagate baseless fear then bring forth your explanation against my explanation if you have the truth?

    Enjoy your weekend!

  204. Ahsan Jahangir

    i feel sory for you mr athiest. If you think the universe is working on its own, life and death happens on its own, and you can deny God, its your will. but don't ask others to follow your dark path. Believe in God, either muslim, christian or jew, but you have to believe in one god.

  205. Amed21

    Do you want equality brother
    Go search who creates money out of thin air ( not the governments as you would first think) and that whom, islam has been fighting against throughout the history and that so called the modern days that you live in is actually totally a delusional world that only apply unthinking people who lacks reading, whose masters called zionists that who owns modern slaves like every stupid persons have no idea about islam...

    thats why the first recitation was Recite in the name of Allah.
    so Go read brother
    Salamu alaykum
    Amed

  206. commentbrowser

    Salamu aleikum brothers,

    After awhile you should give up arguing with atheists. The majority of them will not believe even if you spent your lifetime reasoning with them. The best you can do is make them look foolish by exposing their atheism as ridiculous. Keep them on their beliefs and pretty soon they will stop commenting.

    Hey Patrick popquiz hotshot. Who originated the Universe?

  207. Vlatko

    @commentbrowser,

    That was funny. They will stop commenting?

    Here is one for you: Who originated the God?

    Your answer will be something like "no one, he is alpha and omega".

    But, if you believe that your deity was not created by someone, I don't see the logic why would you not believe that the universe was not created by someone too.

  208. Achems_Razor

    @commentbrowser:

    PBUH FSM, After awhile you should give up arguing with Religee's. The majority of them will not believe even if you spent your lifetime reasoning with them. The best you can do is make them look foolish by exposing their religion as ridiculous. Keep them on their beliefs and pretty soon they will stop commenting.

    The universe was created out of absolutely nothing, Re: Stephen Hawking.

  209. commentbrowser

    Hey Achems_Razor did you copy and paste or what? And you still didn't answer my question. Neither did you Vlatko. Yes the answer is God. Do you know why? Because infinite regression is absurd and an eternal terminator is needed to solve the dilemma. If you can't answer the question at least answer this: who invented the color green?

  210. Achems_Razor

    Yes, I have answered your question, "READ" my post. And the colour green is not an invention, it is a series of progressions due to "Evolution".

  211. Vlatko

    @commentbrowser,

    The answer is implied in the last paragraph. The universe came out of nothing.

    Now who originated God?

  212. commentbrowser

    I told you can't reason with atheists. Brothers don't waste your time. They are saying nonsense. These are not people sincerely seeking answers.

    These are your rational replies? The universe came out of nothing! The color green came from evolution! I'm out of here what a waste of time.

    Maybe Stephen Hawking originated the Universe? Or maybe one of you two did? What a laugh!!!

  213. Vlatko

    @commentbrowser,

    And what are your rational replies? We didn't read any.

    Or it might be, we don't have a clue how the universe originated, and lot of other stuff, therefore God created it.

  214. Achems_Razor

    @commentbroswser,

    I am convinced you do not know how to read, or is it the reading comprehension that has you baffled.

    If anything "originated" the universe it had to be FSM (PBUH) at least it is not invisible, on most peoples kitchen shelves in a benign state.

    That goes down better than eat of and drink of the big JC.
    And Hawking is a great man of science, if he says the universe came out of absolutely nothing, then who's to argue? Read his book "The Grand Design" all explained in the book.

  215. John Marus

    "they are saying nonsense" and this is coming from you, someone who believes in a faith based in fairy tales and historical manipulation? How convenient your god has to wait for the after-life to appear. You can't talk with any of you brainwashed soles who choose to be walked on and used by the religious establishment, just please stop filling the globe with your hate: and that goes for all you religious fools. You are in charge of you

  216. Shahzaib Arshad

    WHO the hell told you that? If that's true i can say u raped 2yr old girl. Would you believe that? The thing is, what is the proof. Don't open your mouth against someone when you don't have enough proof.

  217. Chriskent

    "Indeed for all this Allah says to the Atheists: You do whatever you wish to do. But remember you have to return to ME and that day WE will show you what you doubted about...And there is no Escape then..."
    All religions seem to preach and promote humility but ALL religions practice and are riddled with the most astounding arrogance.
    The bottom line with all religions is exactly as the nonsense as quoted above:
    "We (whichever religion is in question) have a monopoly on truth and we know all the answers. Everyone else is wrong and if they don't agree with us they are going to hell."
    For a religion that claims to be based on humility and humanity I must say that the smug arrogance of the passge I have quoted above is quite staggering.
    As the saying goes - thank God I am an atheist!

  218. Matthew Shin

    Good documentary on what a Muslim might think or have learned in "Qur'an study" (that's supposed to be a joke) about their faith. I found it interesting but very biased towards Islam. If a Christian made a documentary like this, it would almost irrefutably be laughed at.

  219. Fahmi Shihabi

    Thank GOD you're an Atheist. You are not making since!

  220. Robby Salisbury

    dumbest person ever...

  221. Mary Osman

    Great Rageh . i enjoyed it , and to all those haters , shut the hell up . he is the best person on earth and you all dont kno shi'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
    Allahu akbar

  222. NaÐa Sparrow

    It's a true fact that Muhammed PeaCe be upon him is the Greatest Person Ever .

    The believers and unbelievers who saw Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) were unanimous agreed that he had the best attributes and that he (PBUH) was unique and approached the level of human perfection.

    Love My Prophet And Love My religion ' Islam'
    Thank God I'm A Muslimah :)

  223. AkolyteShivaHaru

    I don't mean any disrespect but i have studied many world religions over the last 10 years. Just an observation that Mohammed likely had heard biblical stories in his travels from Christians and Jewish rabbis. He saw the power those faiths had to unite people under a single banner. Supposedly he was illiterate which is believable but it is plausible that he memorized such stories and created his own version. In his political ambition to seize control of Mecca and establish a theocracy with him as the leader. It is evident as the surrahs that where recorded in his exile in medina are far more war driven than those that where recorded when he had established his Islamic state in Mecca later in life.

  224. D Evans

    Atheists try to say following religion is wrong but in reality atheism itself is their religion.

  225. danish aziz

    by saying this Inshallah Allah will punish u at Day of Judgement..We Muslims are not allowed to say any bad thing about other religions instead we are told to adapt good qualities and habits of other religions too.

  226. alienz_zneila

    if muhammed (pbuh) has copied the stories from the bible, the quran also should have the same grave errors in it... but in contrast quran clears the doubt and gives clarity to things...who is god and who is not....it is obvious that both quran and bible shares some commonality due to the fact that the inspiration was from the same god (Muslims view).. and he cannot make new beefed up stories....also rather the tables can be turned towards jesus (PBUH) too for copying the teachings and sayings from the Hebrew bible ''Torah'' and ''Talmud''.... but we muslims are told to believe in the previous revelations such as Psalms, Torah & the gospels (in True form not the present one with grave errors and contradicting teachings)....and my brother let there be no compulsion in religion...

  227. Tdatta

    Did Islam bring any peace in the world?It followed the tradition of barbaric medieval culture by spreading with sword and intimidating other religion. It failed to bring equality among the Muslims. Fighting is spreading around the countries where Muslims are having significant portion of populations.

  228. Mary Yumm

    pffft...its funny that people who don't believe god or any religion seems to make their own religion and yet also believes that aliens from mars or whatever planet or dimensions they are from are going to invade the earth and eat them xD

  229. kashif mahmood syed

    If muhammad was alive today, he would have saved the world from the terror of the United states (the quresh of the 21st century) which kills civilian populations just to maintain its military might

  230. 911_was_an_Inside_Job

    One of the most amazing and intellectuall answer to any Atheist on this blog about Islam and Muslims. Great job Safwan.

  231. 911_was_an_Inside_Job

    pretty childish i would say. very poor questions from a cleaver Atheist who knows all and can produce something out of nothing. LOL

  232. 911_was_an_Inside_Job

    Another stunning answer to some one who has no capability what-so-ever to even understand the deep meaning and purpose of the system Islam has. Greetings to you Safwan.

  233. Vlatko

    @911_was_an_Inside_Job,

    Let me clear this up for you.

    Atheists DO NOT claim that they know all.
    Atheists DO NOT claim that they can produce something out of nothing.

    Since you've showed that you're unable to grasp some very simple scientific concepts and you're continuing to distort what was being said, plus adding subtle ad hominem(s) here and there, I think we're done here.

  234. 911_was_an_Inside_Job

    And im convinced that you yet to realize that you got a brain.

  235. Achems_Razor

    911_was.......

    What? you do not think that the FSM is real? (PBUH), is that why the ad hominem attack?

  236. 911_was_an_Inside_Job

    But you pretend to be all knowing (i know you copy and paste). So what is wrong if i call you all knowing ?
    You are done, i know that. As you have said i do not know the basic of scietific concepts, i guess there is nothing a all knowing can talk about to some not all knowing. Loll
    If i am unable of anything that would be being a bully, being an ignorant, being a judge runnig around and judging. If im unable of any thing that would be being some one who pretends. In my all posts i have given a clear sign of my disagreent of what you preach, now you dont have to angry if i do not listen the same music as you do.

  237. 911_was_an_Inside_Job

    Im still convinced though. Hahaha

  238. 911_was_an_Inside_Job

    Muhammedsafwan's questions and his answers he gave to you looks like it stunned you. You failed once again to keep up, as i saw the Alien looking Razor asked you to help him out.

  239. Vlatko

    @911_was_an_Inside_Job,

    As I pointed out in the other thread, I first warned you about copying stuff from other forums. Don't pretend to be an innocent sheep here.

    Yes, it is clear that you don't understand some basic scientific concepts, but that doesn't mean I'm all knowing. And if you want to learn, me and the others here will be glad to teach you or point you to where you can upgrade your poor scientific knowledge.

    In fact, I think there is a little hope for you. You have 200+ documentaries on science here and yet you didn't learn anything. It is shame.

    I don't mind if you don't "listen the same music" as I do, but I mind when you're trying to put that music under my nose as the most correct and the most beautiful one. Then I'll have to react.

  240. Vlatko

    @911_was_an_Inside_Job,

    Hahaha... I was stunned. No, just his arguments are not worth answering. Plus I don't have that time. I need to run this place you know. I have to PROVIDE you some knowledge.

    He has some other weird translations of the word EQUALITY, he thinks that the Islam is unique, and the most important (and the worst at the same time) he clearly shows that his dogma works on fear and intimidation. Here it is:

    "You do whatever you wish to do. But remember you have to return to ME and that day WE will show you what you doubted about...And there is no Escape then..."

    I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously, nor I can't devote much of my time thoroughly explaining myself regarding that. It is childish in a way.

  241. MohammedSafwan

    @ Vlatko,

    Do you know the fable "The Fox and the Grapes" read it again it fits you :D

    Yes, the weird translations of the word "EQUALITY" is far far better than your Evolutionary principle:

    "In the animal kingdom, females are inferior in most of the aspects. We just carry those animal instincts, which are morally justified by our cultures, religions, societies. Even though we are civilized, deep down we are still animals.
    But we don't need to do that anymore. The sooner we realize that, the better."

    Vlatko, Don't make a fool out of yourself...

    Misuse of Intelligence or a Case of Missing Intelligence:

    I do not know why there is a misuse of intelligence or it is really a case of missing intelligence. Most of the Atheist people here do this mistake of Always misquoting critical sentences of others. A very careless attitude I must say.
    Vlatko, you missed to quote the below sentence properly. See the underline words, the sentence does not establish itself on the basis of Fear and Intimidation (of which you falsely accuse).

    Indeed for all this Allah says to the Atheists: You do whatever you wish to do. But remember you have to return to ME and that day WE will show you what you doubted about...And there is no Escape then...

    The sentence is an explanation of the limits of freedom (Free Will) granted to human life on Earth. And at the end of his/her human life, he/she will be ultimately accountable for their deeds to the Creator. Therefore one can believe or dis-believe or do whatever one want to do, but if one think that he/she can do away with all that they wish without any accountability, then they are fooling themselves, and this is what Allah reminds the creation that, they should not harbor any doubts with regards to accountability & meeting the Creator.
    So enjoy your free will on Earth and do whatever you wish to, even if you wish to believe that there is no Creator you are free to do so, but all such wishful beliefs will ultimately see the light of Reality when you experience Death. And after that there is no Escape....Can anybody Escape Death?

    Stop Kidding Yourself!
    It was your Childish nature or your act of Heroism when you reacted & jumped in between the discussion on a request of help from Mr. Achems_Razor.... I never asked you to devote any time or give your insight - REMEMBER! YOU VOLUNTEERED ON YOUR FRIEND'S REQUEST!

  242. Vlatko

    Listen @MohammedSafwan,

    You're going to employ personal attacks like your friend or you're gonna have a reasonable debate? Decide. I wonder what your God teaches you about respecting others opinions.

    So don't tell me that I'm making fool of myself, or that I lack intelligence. Those are disrespectful personal qualifications and they are just bad. Is that what your religion teaches you? To be mean with someone who disagrees with you.

    And no I didn't miss a quote. It is clear that your God works on fear, intimidation, and blackmail as any other God in Abrahamic religions. You just don't want to see it. The limits of freedom (Free Will)... give me a break.

    So now let turn the tables around. I say I believe in my one and only God, Thor. And I say that he is the ONLY and TRUE one. Your God is just fake as any other God, except mine, the mighty Thor.

    I also say you have to repent and bow in front of Thor, in order to be saved. The death is near and Thor will not be happy with you when you face him in the hell. You've being disrespectful to my God all over the place. Bow and repent... now or never.

    So how do you feel? When you truly understand why you feel so strange and repulsive reading about my God Thor, you will understand why I feel the same about your God.

    The bottom line is: "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen Roberts.

  243. MohammedSafwan

    @Vlatko,

    Listen Intently!

    Disagreements and varied opinions do not attract personal attacks or a mean response. It is baseless criticism from self appointed "smart guys" who rightly receive straight forward hard hitting arguments, that they consider as personal attacks probably to attract public sympathy! Haven't we all seen this tried & tested tactics of politician?? More over Gentlemen with true knowledge would die at the stakes like Copernicus, rather than playing with words & philosophical statements (especially of others!)

    Fear & Intimidation:-

    You still miss the point...Fear & the feeling of guilt is such a natural part of humans. And this feeling is co-relative to the sense of Responsibility & Accountability. No mortal can deny that they do not experience this. So Fear has a positive role to play. Those particular sentence in my previous post are but a REMINDER from Allah to humans about the inevitability of an Event. And Reminders are necessary for human being because we have this another natural behavior of forgetfulness. The Reminder serves the purpose of a clear, straight forward communication, a Warning thats all! Considering such Reminder to be threatening is RIGHT for our own benefit. However, after the Reminder one is still free to do whatever one wish to do...The onus to be Responsible & Accountable clearly lies thereon upon an individual.

    Turning Tables:-

    In your hypothetical condition of "Thor the one God" there is nothing repulsive to be felt.

    Tell me on what criteria Thor is God?

    And I will give you a clear cut answer whether to Accept or Deny Thor and what Thor says.

    And rest assure I wont depend on philosophical statements of fewer gods! thats kind of naive.
    One does not ascend to the stage of Atheism by the deductive mechanism of fewer & fewer god to no god!

  244. MohammedSafwan

    @Vlatko,

    Responsibility & Accountability towards what?

    Dont list nations, the talk is not about Nations(it is altogether a different story) the talk is specific to the way comments(opinions) are posted here by Atheists that do not have head & tail. The Talk is about irresponsible behavior of Atheist & their preaching...

    And from where on Earth you came with that 70% stats?
    I guess the rest 30% consist Atheists, Truly a irresponsible group of population! lol :D

    About Thor & The Last Paragraph:-

    No one gets anything that one can't handle!

    I dismiss other gods because they Contradict the below:

    God is Eternal, Independent, Uncaused Cause of All Being, there is nothing that can be compared with God, everything depends on Him, It is beyond human comprehension or imagination to describe or define God, and hence any figurative, abstract or symbolic depiction of God is a denial of God The Truth. God is the Light of the Heaven and the Earth all encompassing, He is the Creator, Sustainer & Guide.

    So why do you Dismiss God?
    (contemplate over this, it is good for you)

  245. Vlatko

    @MohammedSafwan,

    The point was people have and they always had Responsibility & Accountability (moral conduct if you will) without your God. 70% of the people on Earth DO NOT believe in, and recognize your God. That is a perfect example that your God is not needed for having Responsibility & Accountability. 70% people do not need reminder from your God anyways. If YOU have to be reminded to be a good person on a regular basis, by an imaginary deity, you have to understand that some people do not need that.

    The Talk is about irresponsible behavior of Atheist & their preaching...

    Atheist do not preach. You preach. Atheist just disagree with you. Nothing more. Is that so difficult to understand. Now research about prison population, divorce rates, and other real irresponsible behavior among Atheists, and you'll realize that Atheists compared to Theists (statistically speaking) are far more responsible.

    "I dismiss other gods because they Contradict the below..."

    Good, now you understand why I dismiss your God. It contradicts what you've defined as God.

  246. MohammedSafwan

    @Vlatko,

    There is no such thing as "My God" in Islam.

    As I said God is Independent so the size of population that either believes or does not believes makes no difference in His Sovereignty.

    Responsibility & Accountability towards Mankind = Towards God

    The Creator has fashioned Responsibility & Accountability as part of human nature, acknowledging or denying and acting (acting morally or immorally)accordingly is upto an individual for his/her own good.
    The REMINDER is but a warning that what you doubt shall be brought forth to you. Amend your ways or JUST WAIT...Nothing More! - And it is not me saying, it is God - You have a problem with that take it up with God! you dont really need to fret about it - As you do not believe right? so the warning is worth not believing either right?

    By what generally is known as the Meaning of:
    Preach = To advocate, especially to urge acceptance of or compliance. Atheist are preachers. Advocates to popularize all evils in society...because Atheist have nothing to say, a bunch of monkeys who just disagree!

    So tell me for the below - Do Atheist just agree or Dis-agree?

    What does Atheism say about duties & responsibility towards Parents?
    What does Atheism say about duties towards Kith & Kin?
    What does Atheism say about duties & responsibility towards Neighbors?
    What does Atheism say about the Institution of Marriage?
    What does Atheism say about duties & responsibility vis-a-vis among husband wife & children?
    what does Atheism say about Alcoholism?
    What does Atheism say about the conducts of war?
    What does Atheism say about the conducts of business & work?
    What does Atheism say about rights of Animals?
    What does Atheism say about Corruption?
    What does Atheism say about teenage sex, per-marital sex, adultery, drugs, murders, homosexuality?

    Oh man! the list can go on...and the world knows what Atheism has to say about it A BIG NOTHING!
    Wake up! Nobody wants to live in a world where everybody believes to just disagree! Just saying "Atheist Just Disagree with you" gives a picture only of - IRRESPONSIBILITY & UNACCOUNTABILITY!
    What it depicts on the part of Atheist is: unless the problem does not knock my door I wont bother what & how others go about it? VERY VERY IMMATURE! The incapability of a society to take a stand to solve its own problems!

    An insignificant, highly scattered 2.3% of Atheist population of the world do not account for any statistical comparison...
    For your kind information any research will clearly show that crime & other social evil factor in a society is a combination of
    1)Economic instability
    2)cultural factor &
    3) religion.
    Use some common sense - why followers of the same religion(a set of agreed moral conducts) residing in 2 different location have a contradictory rate of crime in their society? Does it ring any bell to you?
    I feel like I am baby sitting you!

    "Good, now you understand why I dismiss your God. It contradicts what you've defined as God."

    Oh yeah what you made me understand is that there is a gross lack of Neurons and abundance of Ignorance and Fear to define the IT part...

  247. MohammedSafwan

    @Vlatko,

    Personal Attack!

    There was no intent of personal attack(I am sorry), it is what I understood about your answers. Be so kind and do keep your answers to the point. So that I am not led to such conclusions.

    YOU don't worry about what other religions say, speak about yourself - Do Not Beat Around The Bush.

    YOU don't want to believe don't believe. As I said already: Dont Fret, Dont worry JUST WAIT...Keep adding days till the Last Hour.

    You need proof, Read and understand Quran with an open mind.
    The Message is a proof in itself that it is Divine. People of knowledge see virtue in it & its Messengers, whereas people of ignorance expect The Message & The Messengers to deliver & satisfy their whims & Fancies...The Choice is yours.

    When you came in to this world , Everyone laughed while you cried. Don't do such work, That they laugh when you are gone-KABIR

    Like the Oil is inside the Seed, Just as the Fire is Inside the Flint Stone
    Your God is Inside You, If you have the Power to Wake Up, then Wake Up-KABIR

    Preaching, Fun & Hypocrisy
    Yes indeed it is funny to see such a hypocrisy. Atheist say they do not preach, but google gives an account of 92,000 Atheists advocacy websites for a search string of:"List of Atheist Websites". Even if I consider that 99% of the websites are not advocating we still are left with 920 websites - Still a significant number to prove that Atheist Preach! And those preaching leads to the illness of hypocrisy and a very non-compatible living & life style.
    The heights of Atheist hypocrisy
    At one hand Atheists speak children should not be advocated in any particular thought process and on another there are again loads of websites that help parents how to raise Atheist Children.

    Do YOU see - Where the Abundance of Ignorance & Lack of Neurons leading to?

    The thing which you consider as 1000 years old fairy tales is potent with GUIDANCE - The Choice is still yours

    A Filthy Joke - In Atheism, Right Becomes Wrong

    Disobedience to Parents is Disobedience(any times & climes)
    A Theft is a Theft (any times & climes)
    A Murder is a Murder (any times & climes)
    A Rape is a Rape (any times & climes)

    The Right is separate from Wrong(any times & climes). Calling Wrong as Right is not progression it is degradation of thoughts in a person.
    Do you have any idea of how abhorring is what you said? Say that to 9/11 or Iraq war victims & their families after 100 years! Say them that the atrocities committed against them were atrocities at the time they were committed, but now the thoughts have progressed, evolved and they must move on without any feelings & there is no need to claim for any justice as the evolving thoughts say that the Wrong is Right today! SHAME ON SUCH THOUGHTS &SPINELESS THINKERS!

    Good that you acknowledge Atheism has nothing to say about that list but varied opinion of 2.3% of lunatic population.
    Wake Up - Its a Organized World.From Animals to Humans all live in an Organized systems and follow a set of dogmas to organize themselves. Even Machines are organized systems & follow a set of rules!
    Now Do you Clearly See What is Wrong with Atheism - It is dis-organized system that Do not have any set of rules (as they are proud of that they don't give a s*hit)and to top it all the hypocrisy, Atheism is propagate across the world using an Organized System to spread dis-organization - DO YOU CALL THIS RESPONSIBILITY & ACCOUNTABILITY SIRRRRR!!!!!!
    Indeed How Well Have the Rational Thinking, Scientifically & Historically Informed 2.3% of population Acts! :-<
    But the reality is - Atheism has a sinister attitude and revels in it. The objective of Atheism is Discord & Anarchy thats all. Atheism is Weed in Society and Atheist are its Fruits! A Bitter Fruit that benefits no one.

    16% of the world population.ha..ha..haa... If clubbing together agnostics, secular, non-religious & others gives you a high do so by all means. But do not argue with Hinduism if they steal away some numbers from your stats. Because if you know Hinduism it comprises polytheist, agnostics, seculars, non-religious, heathen, ancestor worships(Chinese religion), Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism and even Atheism...Actually according to Indian statistics you are a Hindu Atheist. And Atheist Hindus are categorized into OBC = Other Backward Classes and you will also be happy to know that OBC people get lot of donations, charity & reservations in all economic, social & political activities in India. For Example: If there is a Job for a Doorman then this category of job is exclusively reserved for OBC..:D
    Therefore, there is no proper clear statistics about Atheists, and when I quote 2.3% it was exclusive Atheists excluding the 14% of others. More over the Stats of 2.3% of Atheist come up due to State IMPOSED (Not followed) adherence such as China & Soviet Union. Sometimes read the information that goes with the numbers when you refer to some statistics...

    And about prisons & crime rates, kindly memorize this:
    Crime & other social evil factor in a society is a combination of(In order of Prominence):

    1)Economic instability
    2)cultural factor &
    3) religion.

  248. Vlatko

    @MohammedSafwan,

    YOU don't want to believe don't believe. As I said already: Dont Fret, Dont worry JUST WAIT...Keep adding days till the Last Hour.

    If you don't want to believe in Thor, don't believe. Just wait until you get into his hammer welding hell. But it will be too late then.

    You need proof, Read and understand Quran with an open mind.

    If you need a proof read the books, myths and legends about Thor with an open mind.

    Your God is Inside You, If you have the Power to Wake Up, then Wake Up.

    Are you trying to convert someone here. Thor is inside you, if you have the power to wake up, then wake up.

    Atheist say they do not preach, but google gives an account of 92,000 Atheists advocacy websites for a search string of:"List of Atheist Websites".

    What a lame argument. Fake moon landing gives 1,630,000 results. That doesn't mean that there are dogmatic organizations that preach their beliefs from door to door and in temples.

    The thing which you consider as 1000 years old fairy tales is potent with GUIDANCE.

    Right, now remind me who approves chopping off heads, arms and fingers, and killing infidels. At least the right and the only God almighty Thor gives a better guidance. Repent while you still can.

    A Filthy Joke - In Atheism, Right Becomes Wrong

    I don't know from where are you getting this impression, but you're obviously wrong. Atheists have the same moral grounds as you. You just don't want to admit it.

    Say that to 9/11 or Iraq war victims & their families after 100 years!

    9/11 in the first place was caused by religious lunatics/fanatics. Secondly you don't understand what I'm saying. Slavery, racial segregation was right century ago (promoted and shield by religious dogma), but now is wrong. I was referring to that but since you insist I had to spell it out for you.

    Atheism is propagate across the world using an Organized System to spread dis-organization

    I think you're into some kind of conspiracy thinking process here. Rest assured, atheism is not an organized system, not in a sense of how religions are organized.

    16% of the world population.ha..ha..haa... If clubbing together agnostics, secular, non-religious & others gives you a high do so by all means. But do not argue with Hinduism if they steal away some numbers from your stats.

    Check your stats again. Hindus are 14% and non-religious are 16%. The people who answer: "none" or "no" to religious preference are 16% of the total population, whether you like it or not. Even that percentage is misrepresentation, because in many countries people will not dare to declare themselves as non-religious (Islamic countries, USA etc.), because of loosing their job, the social status etc.

    Crime & other social evil factor in a society is a combination of... Economic instability, cultural factor and religion.

    Statistics are not your strong side, are they? What you say is true, but if you take a sample of world population (diverse across many countries), both theist and non theist you'll see that Atheists are always more law abiding citizens then the others.

    Religion does not have a monopoly on moral behavior. Many atheists behave in a "moral" or "compassionate" way simply because they feel a natural tendency to empathize with other humans.

    Once again, don't portray yourself, or your religion as the one with higher moral grounds. Simply it is not true. Atheist are equally as moral as you.

  249. MohammedSafwan

    @Vlatko,

    I just cant be thankful enough to the Indian geniuses for the invention of the category - OBC - Truly the East knew why they were categorizing atheist to the OBC. Truly Atheist are OBC! By the way Congrats!

    Yes, Yes I am preparing & eagerly waiting ... YOU too wait I guarantee Thor will accompany you :-)

    As I said The Choice is Yours...enjoy!

    Oh Yeah the Fake Moon landing example was identical to the statistical exercise I presented about Atheist preaching. So the Result I concluded about Atheists will very much be the same conclusion about Fake Moon Landing conspirators! You just dont admit that Atheist preach but are convinced that they do! Good Job :-)

    So whats the point of Reminding?

    A Man who takes the task of discussing a complex subject such as Constitutions & Penal Code Laws with a Donkey must be stupid. It is only wise to let the Donkey live & Die in his small isolated world. And I Certainly Dont want to be that Stupid Person!Sorry Dear!

    I got that filthy impression from you! Thank you! to let the world know what lies beneath those moral grounds of Atheists! The moral grounds of Atheists stinks with only baseless opinions and nothing else.

    Vlatko Says: Slavery, racial segregation was right century ago (promoted and shield by religious dogma), but now is wrong. I was referring to that but since you insist I had to spell it out for you.

    Do get right, your idea about right & wrong and history as well! The foul smell of Atheist morals got even worse now! Slavery, racial segregation WAS NOT RIGHT centuries ago EITHER, people fought against it always. I salute (You Slapped) the dedication, hard work of those people who fought against these social evils.It is their continuous effort that today you & me enjoy a free life. It is actually the Pride of Power that makes people to subjugate other people to slavery and racial segregation. And the people who have power have always misuse their position to re-write the code of conduct of societies. The other religions of the world allowed such re-writing & corruption crawl into their religions. And the Antidote for this problem is Islam. Islam freed Slaves from their bondage. Islam brought Slaves equal to their Masters. In Islam Slaves led Nations, their was no distinction. There is no racial segregation in Islam. All this Islam achieved gradually but on a permanent basis. However this cannot be discussed on a elaborate level as you see I just get reminded of Man & Donkey situation I mentioned above...

    When I said Atheism is propagate across the world using an Organized System I refer to the Internet an organized machinery use for world wide communication. I know for sure in any sense Atheism is Not an Organized System. Atheism is organized only in Non-sense! :D

    Let me educate you a little about Hinduism & give a refresher on Data organization & Interpretation.
    Hinduism is a not a religion it is a name given to people who claim their religious, ethnic, cultural & socio--economic decent to the Harappa & Mohenjadaru or Indus Valley civilization that was setup at the banks of the river Sindhu. Sindhu turns to Hindu(Indu). So based on the affiliation of people to the civilization of Sindhu or Hindu the many religions that originated from India(India is an English translation of the word Hindu or Indu(Indu derived from Indus Valley Civilization) are generalized as Hinduism. So Hinduism properly contains several religions right from Dravidian(native of India) Nature worshippers, Sanatan Dharam(Aryans), Buddhism, Jainism and many more religions that also includes Hindu Atheism as well are all included in Hinduism. Therefore the Statistics that is aggregated & interpreted on religions is actually biased and not complete. Because within Hinduism there are more than 30,000(OBC) denomination of other religions or castes, which has actually caused a big political stir in India wherein the Indian Politicians are planning to introduce a Caste based census. Hence I say if Hinduism steals some statistics dont cry! You see Indians are going official very soon on their 30,000 odd census!

    The 16% includes Atheism, the statistics never say it is all Atheism. You mis-understood(so much for your understanding of Stats). Further if you read the website that you referred it will be far more clear that the data collected in this category is not accurate due to several reason one of them being fear of death that you spoke here of(to gain sympathy I guess) Such people who believe in "lack of belief" and claim it to be THEIR RIGHT COURSE must raise their voice at the pain of death if not they already know their non-belief is too weak to face the fear of death and they hold no chance or deserve no chance to voice their non-belief or opinions, it is the ultimate test every belief or non-belief must give. Or else they can stay back at their home behind the doors, in front of their computers feeding their own egos by searching for sympathizers over 92000+1(this place as well) websites :D lol

    Just repeating that Atheist have the lowest crime rate blah blah blah will not make it true. Bring your numbers in case if you really have any!

    Simply feeling to empathize with other humans does not run this world. If that simply feeling is all the personal criteria of Atheists, such people can join dogs, cats and other Animals(Warning - Only Domestic Animals) as these animals too exhibit to a certain extend such feelings and probably in due course of evolution they will come to the expected mark! :D

    I dont need to Portray Islam as the Best in Morals, The world since 1500 years knows it is the Best in Morals. Yes a few skewed brains have simply chosen to "Dis-Belief" because they "Lack Belief" or they Simply "Dis-Belief" which is all fine by Islam as such people have existed and have met their appropriate ends!
    Atheist are moral just in their heads & within their atheist circles. And Immorality is morality in atheist circles. If this is wrong they can prove it if they are capable to prove it!

  250. Vlatko

    @MohammedSafwan,

    So much non sense in your words. Are you sure you're Muslim? When unable to cope with the arguments just slander the good old insults. Way to go.

    You don't make sense. The fake moon landings was an example to show you that you can come up with a million of search results on almost every phrase you're looking for, but that doesn't mean that everything (the phrase you search for) has any serious organized system for propagation in real life.

    When I said Atheism is propagate across the world using an Organized System I refer to the Internet an organized machinery use for world wide communication.

    Internet is far from organized machinery. You can now open your own blog in seconds and start writing about Islam vs. Atheists... and join the countless results on Google for those keywords. The point is, any fool can write, record and publish things on internet. It is a far from organized, and in fact it will never be.

    Donkey... filthy Atheists... baseless opinions. Sir I'll tell you again: You obviously have some social problems. You obviously do not know how to argue politely with people.

    Slavery, racial segregation WAS NOT RIGHT centuries ago EITHER, people fought against it always.

    People didn't fought ALWAYS against it. It was a common practice. It was justified all over the world, for thousands of years.

    And the Antidote for this problem is Islam. Islam freed Slaves from their bondage. Islam brought Slaves equal to their Masters. In Islam Slaves led Nations...

    Yes I knew that would come. Islam was fine regarding slavery. You can delude yourself that way, you can think that way, but that will not change the fact that Islam had slavery embedded in the very heart. You can write walls of texts justifying the slavery in Islam but you will not change anything. Maybe Islam had a slightly more humanitarian approach to slavery, but slave is slave. Inferior human being compared to another. In fact Muhammad was a slave owner and trader. He captured slaves in battle.

    Keep talking about Hindus. It is entertaining but you're not making any point. As I've told you those 16% are separate from Hindus stats. I'll repeat it again: The people who answer: "none" or "no" to religious preference are 16% of the total population, whether you like it or not. I'll concede that those 16% are not calling themselves "atheists" per se. Agnostics and secular humanist are in that chunk also but the point remains the same. They do not believe or they're not so sure that God exists and the most important of all, they DO NOT follow any religion in particular.

    I dont need to Portray Islam as the Best in Morals, The world since 1500 years knows it is the Best in Morals. Yes a few skewed brains have simply chosen to "Dis-Belief" because they "Lack Belief..

    Are you serious? 80% of the population on this planet will disagree with you on that immediately. Of which world are you talking about? Another planet perhaps? Are those 80% just a few skewed brains?

  251. MohammedSafwan

    @Vlatko,

    When you understand why you dismiss all that I say as non-sense & slander, you will understand why I dismiss yours

    Internet is an organized system. It follows Laws not opinions. It is the dis-organized behavior of the fools that is to be blamed not the tools. Simply, dont blame the knife if you cut yourself.

    Man & the Donkey was just an example of a situation I want to avoid. Or to say I dont want to proceed with a discussion where there is in-compatibility of understanding.

    I never used the term "Filthy+Atheists" together.

    "[People didn't fought ALWAYS against it. It was a common practice. It was justified all over the world, for thousands of years.]"

    I present here a list of people who ALWAYS fought against slavery / Racism(The people you slapped by your words)all across the world in their own times:-

    Spartacus - A Roman Gladiator - Third Servile War or Gladiator War

    poet Ali bin Muhammad - Fought against the Abassid Caliph

    English peasants' revolt of 1381 - Medieval Europe (England)

    Ivan Bolotnikov (1606–1607) - Russia

    Stenka Razin (1667–1671) - Russia

    Kondraty Bulavin (1707–1709) - Russia

    Yemelyan Pugachev (1773–1775) - Russia

    Felipillo - Against the Spanish Colonization of South Americans

    Bayano Juan de Dioso - Against the Spanish Colonization of South Americans

    Domingo Congo - Against the Spanish Colonization of South Americans

    Antón Mandinga - Against the Spanish Colonization of South Americans

    Luis de Mozambique - Against the Spanish Colonization of South Americans

    Tipu Sultan - Against Bonded Labor system, racial discrimination & British colonization in India

    Omar Mukhtar - Against Italian Colonization of Libya (Italian called him Terrorist!)

    B.R.Ambedkar - against serfdom & ethnic discrimination in India

    Mahatma Gandhi - against British colonization

    Nelson Mandela - African National Congress against Apartheid

    Abraham Lincoln - America - The American Civil War

    Martin Luther King, Jr. - American Civil Rights movement

    Malcolm X - Against Rascism in America. Started as a Racist himself because he was brainwashed by skewed brain Elijah Muhammad, but in due time learnt about true Islam and worked for true Civil Rights.

    Muhammad Ali(The Greatest Heavy weight champion) - All atheists can learn something from him. For the belief he had he had the guts as well to go against a nation even if it cost him his career(livelihood) & life. And the results were astounding he became a National Hero because he was right.

    The list is not exhaustive but I hope it served the purpose of making YOU understand that people always fought against slavery & racism throughout the history of the world. I think YOU are not good at history as well!
    By the way the list excludes religious movements & religious figures like Islam, prophets & religious leaders because you think that they never contributed in eradication of slavery or racism, If not the list could be a little more lengthy.
    You can continue to stay in your box! enjoy!

    "[: In fact Muhammad was a slave owner and trader. He captured slaves in battle.]"

    That is exactly what you are fed with. Not what you have knowledge of.

    "[:I'll concede that those 16% are not calling themselves "atheists" per se. Agnostics and secular humanist are in that chunk also but the point remains the same.]"

    Well you got my point. Thank you. When you say Agnostics and secular humanist are in that chuck also, you made a mistake of stating them as ALSO, because Agnostics and secular humanist make the majority, it is the Atheists that make to the ALSO part. And how on Earth does Agnostics + Secular Humanist give the meaning that they are Atheist. Please, Do you know the Distinction between Atheist, Agnostics & Secular Humanist? they are not the same, hence the statistics whatever you presented club all these categories into one called "Non-Religious". Where in Atheist ALSO take the part of 2.3%. Therefore please do not try to hijack such statistical grouped data as your own, Atheist just own a part, a small part of 2.3%.
    Even if you look at the Muslims data that is presented, the chart clearly makes a note that it includes both Sunni & Shia. So if me as a Sunni Muslim claim that the whole data actually is the representation of Sunni Muslims then I make the Shia as well as the others upset! Thank you to understand!

    ":Are you serious? 80% of the population on this planet will disagree with you on that immediately. Of which world are you talking about? Another planet perhaps? Are those 80% just a few skewed brains?"

    Yes I am serious. But from where on Earth you got that 80%? Man such stats will give you some serious gas troubles, Can you prove abt that 80%? :D

  252. Vlatko

    @MohammedSafwan,

    Here we go again. Running in circles.

    Internet is an organized system full of disorganized fools. Isn't that contradictory. If it is full of disorganized fools, it is expected the system to be disorganized itself. The origin of this argument was that you claim that Atheists are organized as theists, as a dogma. That is not the case, even on the Internet. Atheism is far from being an organized machinery as religion is. Keep on with those straw man arguments.

    That list of yours of people who fought against slavery spans within 700 years of the recent history. And those are just individuals who started the opposition. If you by 700 years of the recorded human history mean ALWAYS, that is a different matter. We have a different understanding of the word ALWAYS then. Further more the point stays the same: Individuals were fighting against slavery but religion was justifying it all the time.

    I'm not hijacking any data. Just remember the following: The people who answer: "none" or "no" to religious preference are 16% of the total population, whether you like it or not. They do not believe or they're not so sure that God exists and the most important of all, they DO NOT follow any religion in particular. They don't believe in any God, yours included.

    But from where on Earth you got that 80%?

    Aren't Muslims just 20% of the population? The other 80% clearly don't believe in your your claims regarding your religion. With everything you've posted here so far 80% will simply not agree. Only Muslims will agree with you. Isn't that true? Or you're going to "uncover" some "under the bed" statistics of yours.

  253. MohammedSafwan

    @Vlatko,

    The origin of the Argument was Atheist are using an organized tool such as Internet to spread their dis-organized ideas. Once More - INTERNET IS JUST A TOOL, A TOOL WHOSE COMPONENTS ARE BASED & MADE ON LAWS(such as OSI Model,Network topologies & other things). I even gave you an example baby I will repeat that as well:"DONT BLAME THE KNIFE IF YOU CUT YOURSELF"(KNIFE = TOOL, JUST LIKE INTERNET)

    Please read properly, I already said, that list is Not EXHAUSTIVE. I started with Spartacus - A Roman Gladiator - Third Servile WAR or Gladiator WAR(B.C history). Since the recorded history(of more than 700 years) we have ALWAYS had such fights both as individuals and as collective. And when it is mentioned as WAR it is not just individual opposing, it is a rise of a group inspired by an individual to fight for their rights. Almost all events that the list contains were actually collective efforts. I think you miss to understand this because Atheists have always fought from the back-door with of course their trade-mark "DIS-ORANISED GROUP" for a "NON-BELIEF" cause :D! I can't do spoon feeding, for further reference please follow wikipedia.

    Due to your specific reservations of "Dis-Belief" you deliberately do not want to acknowledge that it is mis-use of power and corruption of religions that were used to justify such acts. Religion itself is not to be blamed. Religion was not pre-requiste for the atrocities that Atheism has inflicted on mankind!-Refer history of China & USSR...

    When you have already conceded in your previous post that 16% are not calling themselves as Atheist, it is done. And I have Thanked you to drive the last nail in the coffin. Whats the point now? I call the chapter close there.

    Just because 20% Muslims are part of world populations, it does not mean that the rest of the world do not agree that Muslims are good in Morals. Actually they acknowledge that Muslims have very good Morals & ethics. To confirm what I say check out any statistical data website where you can find figures about crime,alcoholism, drugs, suicides etc...the figures will be in favor of muslims most of the time. More over most of the muslim countries are actually developing countries with economic problems and suffer from poverty yet they fair well morally in comparison to Developed & affluent countries where there is not must muslims populations. Also the countries where there is a minority presence of muslims, the local statistics still show that muslims are a very good population when it comes to morals.
    I could have actually provided you with all this data, but I do not have the network bandwidth and it is good for you to self verify what I say...

  254. Vlatko

    @MohammedSafwan,

    I don't know, but I have e feeling that this conversation is pointless. You just evade everything and obviously not interested in rational debate.

    The origin of the Argument was Atheist are using an organized tool such as Internet to spread their dis-organized ideas.

    Now it is a TOOL, but previously it was a SYSTEM: Your quote from way below: Internet is an organized system. Decide what are you going to cling on and don't contradict yourself.

    Please read properly, I already said, that list is Not EXHAUSTIVE...

    Even if it was exhaustive, do you understand that you don't prove a single point. It is undeniable fact that all abrahamic religions introduced slavery in their scriptures, and openly supported that until recently. You can list as many lists as you wish, but that will not change the fact stated above.

    Religion was not pre-requiste for the atrocities that Atheism has inflicted on mankind!-Refer history of China & USSR...

    This is what is called classical "Argument from Ignorance". What you say is very well debunked (but you don't bother to read counter arguments from various sources), and I will not spend my time explaining to you how wrong you are. You can find many intelligent lengthy comments on this website about that issue.

    When you have already conceded in your previous post that 16% are not calling themselves as Atheist, it is done.

    I'll repeat it again in case you've missed it. Struggle with it a little bit: The people who answer "none" or "no" to religious preference are 16% of the total population, whether you like it or not. They do not believe or they're not so sure that God exists and the most important of all, they DO NOT follow any religion in particular. They don't believe in any God, yours included.

    The point is that they don't receive/acknowledge any warnings, guidance and moral tips from your God, or anyone else's God. IS that so difficult to understand? Your original premise was that God-less people are lost and will go to hell. What should we do with these people?

    Just because 20% Muslims are part of world populations, it does not mean that the rest of the world do not agree that Muslims are good in Morals.

    Yeap, that is the reason exactly. It means that Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Non-Believers and pretty much everyone else will disagree with you 9 out of 10 times on everything your religion has to say, morals included.

    Now this discussion is obviously a pissing contest. Would you be happier if I told you that Muslims are far more superior than Atheists in every sense and should be converted or eradicated from the face of the Earth?

  255. MohammedSafwan

    I am committed to have rational debate, but what I receive in return is not robust arguments but OPINIONS, that are by and large based on others OPINIONS thrown around as facts!

    Tool or Organized system the gist of the matter is Internet is being used for preaching by atheists. I don't care whether anybody acknowledge it or not. Truth does not requires acknowledgement it will become self evident at the right Time. For now I shall Wait for that Time...

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    A Brief & Fresh History of Hypocrisy & Deliberate Dis-Belief:

    First you said - the right and wrong evolve over time. What was right 100 years ago, now is wrong.

    But I made it clear that there is a clear distinction between Right & Wrong. Right does not become Wrong over time.

    Second you counter it by saying - Secondly you don't understand what I'm saying. Slavery, racial segregation was right century ago (promoted and shield by religious dogma), but now is wrong.

    I clarified this by saying - Slavery, racial segregation WAS NOT RIGHT centuries ago EITHER, ..... And I supported my argument with a small fact list of people stretched over a period B.C to A.D that fought against such injustice.

    But you scoffed off this fact list by saying - The time & strength of people was not good enough. It still remained Right then Because of Religions

    At this point you changed the complete argument from proving your point of "Right & Wrong evolve over time" to "Blame Game" - Blaming Religion for such Atrocities to exist!

    I clarified this opinion of yours again by saying - that it is mis-use of power and corruption of religions. Religion itself is not to be blamed. And I Refer history of China & USSR...as an example to show that Religion was not the cause for atrocities people faced.

    Here, Now you again divert the talk by saying: "Classical argument from ignorance" because Atheism was involved!
    Again continuing the "Blame Game" this time against the arguer...
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    Look at the live proof of your constant shift of Opinions that has misguided the talk. Every time you are disproved you drive the arguments according to your whims, fancies and OPINIONS...
    And after all this YOU EXPECT A RATIONAL DEBATE! WONDERFUL!!!
    ________________________________________________________

    You can repeat upto your satisfaction - I am not bother now!

    My original premises remains the same: It is inherent in Man's Nature to be Accountable & Responsible for his actions. This all the Message delivers as a Warning to Mankind. Whether Mankind believes or dis-believes in the Message, the Messenger or the Creator it is none of my business.

    My business was to counter argue where it was necessary to clarify a few misconception about Islam & Muhammad.

    Nobody, especially not the religious persons have requested you to act as their spoke person. Please try and just represent the group you belong to. The statistics and above that people testimonies are out their about the quality of Moral & Ethics of Islam. And even if the whole of world is against Islam it does not matter. We will try to clarify as much as we can rest it is each person's own Will!
    Anybody can shut themselves in a dark room and believe that the Sun does not exist or simply "Dis-Belief". But the fact remains out there Shining & Burning Bright as ever.

    I neither argue to please nor I am here to shop for converts. My objective remains simple - try let people know what is the Message, and clarify any doubts that they may have.

    Best of Luck!

  256. over the edge

    @MohammedSafwan
    i just have one question but first the context for the question. you stated "Right does not become Wrong over time." and "Slavery, racial segregation WAS NOT RIGHT centuries ago EITHER, ..... And I supported my argument with a small fact list of people stretched over a period B.C to A.D that fought against such injustice." so with those statements in mind your prophet had slaves even tho he freed many he did own them (we know slavery is wrong today even if they are eventually freed), he marries a 9yo and we know that such behavior is wrong today, he had multiple wives and the vast majority of people and countries see that as wrong today. so now my question if these things are wrong today and by your reasoning always wrong was your prophet wrong? please don't change the subject just answer the question

  257. Vlatko

    @MohammedSafwan,

    Tool or Organized system the gist of the matter is Internet is being used for preaching by atheists. I don't care whether anybody acknowledge it or not. Truth does not requires acknowledgement it will become self evident at the right Time.

    OMG, are you serious? Internet is used by every fool to "preach" in every aspect he wants. You're evading the main argument: Atheism is not an organized belief system as religion is. Atheists do not preach, they just lack or deny belief in supernatural. Period.

    First you said - the right and wrong evolve over time. What was right 100 years ago, now is wrong. But I made it clear that there is a clear distinction between Right & Wrong. Right does not become Wrong over time.

    No you didn't. Read what @overtheage said. Are you marrying 9 year old girls today. No. Why? It is wrong. Was it right 1400 ago. Yes. Case closed.

    My business was to counter argue where it was necessary to clarify a few misconception about Islam & Muhammad.

    And those misconceptions would be: scientific miracles in the Quran, homosexuality, inferiority of the women, fear mongering etc... but you didn't provide any rational explanation to back up your claims or denials.

    Nobody, especially not the religious persons have requested you to act as their spoke person. Please try and just represent the group you belong to.

    I do not act as a spoke person. It is common knowledge that Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and pretty much everyone else outside of your religion will DISAGREE with you.

    And may I ask you which group do I represent? Did I state somewhere to which group I belong? I just chose to defend the Atheist side, nothing more. In fact to tell the truth I don't consider myself an atheist. Further more I think Atheism is a completely wrong label given by the theists to mock certain group of people who deny their Gods.

  258. MohammedSafwan

    Anyways...once again...According to me:

    Atheism Dis organized "Dis-Belief" = YES
    Atheism Preach = YES. Get the meaning of Preaching right first!
    Atheism uses Internet medium to preach = YES
    Internet is an Organized system or tool = YES(clarify with a computer specialist)
    Internet is used by all Fool or Atheists alike = Yes
    How the system or tool is used = Left up to the user

    I am done with you about Right and Wrong. Here, with you the situation is: No Matter what, A crooked Bone never straighten. Thank you once again to save me from this ordeal!(I will take care to reply overtheedge thanks!)

    About misconceptions - I have written extensively here in replies to you & others previously as well. You can refer them back!

    As I said "Represent the group you belong to" And do not play superhero either! Nobody called for one anyways!

  259. MohammedSafwan

    @Over the Edge

    To introduce you to the Right & Wrong discussion that went about:
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    I(Safwan)said:
    Atheist are preachers. Advocates to popularize all evils in society...because Atheist have nothing to say, a bunch of monkeys who just disagree!

    Vlatko replied:
    Hahahahha... That was funny. Evils in the society? You don't need a thousand year old fairy tale to tell you what is right and wrong. Even more, the right and wrong evolve over time. What was right 100 years ago, now is wrong. In fact many things that were right in the past now are wrong (progression made without religious interference). I mean come on... your book approves chopping off heads, arms and fingers.

    I disagreed that Right & Wrong Evolve over time and said that RIGHT and WRONG are clearly separated and they do not inter-change positions and gave a list of example wherein Slavery & Racism was picked up in specific.

    And from then onwards thanks to Vlatko's constant shift in his Opinions the talk is going round & round...

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    Now coming to your question:

    if these things(Prophet having Slaves, Prophet marrying 9 year old Ayesha & polygamy in Islam or practiced by Prophet) are wrong today and by your reasoning always wrong was your prophet wrong?

    Before I talk to you about your question, kindly confirm:

    Have I fairly represented your Question Above?

    and give me your understanding of the terms:

    Slavery & Marriage

    This is important without this it is futile to talk about your question...

  260. over the edge

    @MohammedSafwan
    you asked-"Have I fairly represented your Question Above?" my question was clear go by my post only. while the question arose because on yours and Vlatko's discussion i prefer to go by my post only. if my question wasn't clear enough i will clarify. next they where married and he had slaves i refuse to split hairs here i will not give you the opportunity to twist words. sorry but i asked a clear question and i will not go off on a tangent or get into semantics

  261. Vlatko

    @MohammedSafwan,

    Hahaha... As I've said, when unable to cope with the arguments just retort to insults: A crooked Bone never straighten... do not play superhero either...

    Now... preaching is: delivering a sermon; giving religious or moral instruction, especially in a tedious manner; (can you recognize yourself here)

    And the noun is preacher: One who preaches, especially one who publicly proclaims the gospel for an occupation.

    Now where do you see atheists do any of the above?

    So you didn't answer what @over the edge asked you. You just evade everything, without giving clear cut answers and arguments.

    Please analyze the following, regarding the evolution of right and wrong: Are you marrying 9 year old girls today. No. Why? It is wrong. Was it right 1400 ago? Yes. Case closed.

    Represent the group you belong to.

    As I've said you don't know to which group I belong. Maybe I don't have one. Again: I do not act as a spoke person. It is common knowledge that Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and pretty much everyone else outside of your religion will DISAGREE with you.

  262. MohammedSafwan

    @ Over the edge,

    I am not trying to twist words here, I just want to confirm that I have got your question right or not?

    I will consider that I have got your question right.

    It will be difficult for me to explain to you about Prophet Muhammad marriages, and the slaves he had without an understanding of what you understand by these two terms: Slavery & Marriages. This is important, because to come to a common understanding before we can really speak over your question.
    For now I am just being a bit over cautious of the terms.
    There is no intention of trying to twist words or not to answer your question...

  263. over the edge

    @MohammedSafwan

    sorry but i have been down this road too many times. not that i am accusing you of anything but once bitten twice shy. i stated he had slaves and married a 9yo i think most people would be able to deduce what my definitions are. if you refuse, just are unable to answer the question with the info given or as i suspect (and i could be wrong) are waiting for an opening to justify the actions i will walk away.

  264. MohammedSafwan

    Yes most certainly most people would deduce what you are asking. But I too share the same condition: Once bitten twice shy... what to do?

  265. over the edge

    @MohammedSafwan
    that is easy as i stated i will walk away then. my intention was not to change your mind only to see what your answer was and to try to show the fault in your argument to others. i have done that

  266. Zack Winters

    you follow a religon, not god, if you want the word, the book, the oldest book, the holy bible is the only book that has those answers dont deny yourself truth. It warns of false prophets such as Mohammed 600 years before he was born

  267. Zack Winters

    yes your tyrant was wrong then, he is wrong now. he was just a man that is it. what is sad is, he has coned you into believing his lies. Maybe Mohammad had been saved by the blood of Christ, you can only hope. Its the only way brother, the only way!

  268. Edgardo Vergara

    muslim dont believe the doctrine of born-again: by grace, by His blood, by HIs death, and by His resurection. you have a wrong theology, even understanding or knowledge about born again christian and muslim doctrine.

  269. ali tekin

    pls go read to say a false prophet is easy and just what is your arguement...? read Quran and other Bibless..my evidence is Quran..A nd Hz. Muhammed (SAV) said i am just human who message of Allah..and in Quran Allah(cc) has challenged against everybody ?F U NO BEL?EVE this is GOD'S MESSAGE..GO AND BRING A BOOK LIKE QURAN..Zack what is your evidence..?

  270. MaremKharsieva

    your waisting your time if your trying to say islam is a false religion. you know why,because it is not ,quran is also one of the oldest books and it discribed what the world would be like today .no man could have looked in to the future and write about it in such detail.

  271. Selim Can Dagdibi

    Vlatko
    .....................,

    "Every village must have its headman; every needle must have its manufacturer and craftsman. And, as you know, every letter must be written by someone. How, then, can it be that so extremely well-ordered a kingdom should have no ruler? And how can so much wealth have no owner, when every hour a train*1* arrives filled with precious and artful gifts, as if coming from the realm of the unseen? And all the announcements and proclamations, all the seals and stamps, found on all those goods, all the coins and the flags waving in every corner of the kingdom - can they be without an owner?
    ___

    *1* Indicates the cycle of a year. Indeed, every spring is a carload of provisions coming from the realm of the unseen.

  272. can ipek

    So you mean, "Explain it you atheists" in a way? Am I right?

  273. The Gateway

    Any proof of your unfounded and untrue claims brother Zack?
    The onis is most definitely upon you to prove that God came out of a vagina,had His 'penis' circumcised on the 8th day,and committed suicide.Insha'Allah (God willing) I can help you research Islam fairly if you want.Salaam.

  274. Abdul_imran4

    you fool, show me a single point of time in muhammed's where muhammed has lead a luxurious life.................talk something which makes sense.

  275. Abdul_imran4

    if science is everything then ask your science to stop the sun from raising for one day,stop the rotation of the earth for a single second,stop the moon from coming in night............if science can, only then say that science is everything.

  276. over the edge

    Abdul_imran4
    science never claimed to be or know everything. but your god has so ask him to do these things and demonstrate his power for all of us to see.

  277. Bou

    Paganism+Judaism+Roman Myth Stories=Christianity
    Judaism+Christianity=Islam
    They all copy each others for social political control.

  278. Jarron Lewis

    An exceptional documentary. This is a great work that really delves deeper into the life and times of the Prophet Muhammad in ancient Arabia.

  279. Richard Pratt

    unfortunately, this documentary was not available to watch, only the 2 minute preview. Then, I look below and see these sensless arguments. What a shame.

  280. Mine Hakim

    How can one have access to this documentary? I would love to see it, share it, comment on it, and teach from it.
    I am working on an expanded Life of Muhammad, and am always interested in what has been previously been written and researched.
    I look forward to hearing more about where to access this wonderful sounding documentary.
    Mona MacDonald

  281. adil

    if muhammad lived today a psychotic like you would'nt have existed.

  282. MEDICAL-REFERENCE

    According to your point of view, it's not that tough to become a man like Muhammad. So, I am welcoming you to become a man like Muhammad and lead a nation of 1.2 Billion. Memorize Bible, Torah, and Quran, and from your new perspective write a book like Quran following the same pattern of writing. You may also hire as many best writers from all over the world as you want. Just give it a try!

  283. MEDICAL-REFERENCE

    For your kind information, I would like to let you know that Islam is the last complete religion of peace and humanity. And, your so called barbaric medieval Muslim culture was the reason for Renaissance in Europe. Muslim scientists and scholars were the developer of modern day Biology, Chemistry, Mathematics, Physics, Medicine, and Cosmology. "Al Canon" was the first book of Medicine in Europe written by Ibn Sina, a famous Muslim scholar who wrote almost 450 treatises on a wide range of subjects, of which around 240 have survived. In particular, 150 of his surviving treatises concentrate on philosophy and 40 of them concentrate on medicine.

  284. Mehwish

    Theory is nice seems rational but without truth. could you provide facts and truth backing your point

  285. Jeffrey Morrissey

    Easy enough. First I need a millionaires like Khadijah to bankroll my new religion...

  286. Jeffrey Morrissey

    No. He was a murderer, paedophile, adulterer, rapist, slave-holding thief.

  287. Tirjak

    Nothing is static, so is a book which muslims believe the words of Allah came through Muhammad. Many things are not realistic and does not match with the current world. A documentary shown by one of the prominent historian indicates the description of holy Macca and Madina do not match with the then geographical context. Matched with a remote side of Syria. If you go step by step with every text of the holly book lot of anomalies will be surfaced. Even no long time ago people used to believe that the Earth was flat but later discovered untrue . So it proves to us many hypothesises are untrue even majority believe they are true. So if muslims believe the each and every word and context is true that is good for their own belief not for other religion and they should not boast on the supremacy of their religion as last and best .

  288. Tirjak

    you might be right. he tried to find a new way by differentiating with two the then religions . A good marketing .

  289. Shahnawaz Khan

    Brother I do not agree with you. Your thinking, comprehension and ability to understand Quran is negligible. Work on you comprehension and general knowledge. One suggestion from my side do not comment on anything until or unless you study that thing. Quran is far beyond your thinking. And if you want to know about Mohammed (PBUH) read the book by Michael Hart: The Hundred. He is a Christian not a Muslim.

  290. Shahnawaz Khan

    For further information You will find reference of Islam: The religion of Truth, In every religious text Bible, Torah, Zuboor. Hindu Text Geeta etc. For proof visit you tube and see Dr. Zakir Naik's answers to your questions and if you have an ability to challenge that Person than I will surely believe that you have something in you and and i challenge all those who deny Islam to challenge Dr. Zakir Naik and than if you succeed we lose and i will never make any discussion on my religion.

  291. Shahnawaz Khan

    Quran is an invitation for all humans by the Almighty and who ever accepts he will succeed and who ever denies than he is the most powerfull and the punisher.

  292. Shahnawaz Khan

    Mohammed Saw was the greatest and he is the greatest and he will remain the greatest than Jesus, Moses or any other Messenger in this world. No one has an ability to reach his status. People make him even more greater by using abusive languages for my prophet sallalaho alaihi wassalam as ((people abuse those whom they fear the most. Nobody in this world can even reach to his foot.))

  293. Nauman

    you think the billions Zionists are spending to break and defame Islam are much more stupid, and you an intellectual whom they can't get anyway near???

  294. Jeff

    Sorry but I do not understand what you wrote. Could you please rephrase or get a native English speaker to help you express what you meant to say?

  295. Jeffrey Morrissey

    Sorry, but I could not understand your reply. Could you please rewrite it or have a native English speaker work with you to help you express what you meant?

  296. Jeffrey Morrissey

    The Quran says the Trinity is Father, Son and Mary. God knows what Christians believe and does not make such grievous errors.

  297. Timmyz

    I embrace all... I embrace Muhammad and Islam.. That being said...My dog is closer to god than Muhammad. It's the most pathetic documentary. No where was discussed the murder of more than 250 million people and the enslaving of women into harims to satisfy Muslim men. Muslims are slaves to their prophet. No one can reach Muhammad's foot because it is so deep in crap. Tell your prophet and your god to come and get me. I am waiting. As for the followers, how desperate can you be? Oh wait... I see it now. On your knees as most slaves are. Maybe I am Jesus the Christ... oh wait.. he never existed either. So instead of a bunch of "followers" pretending to be of value... how about the "god" of this so called prophet come and get me... oh wait again.. it can't. It has no balls!

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