Who Wrote The Bible?

Who Wrote The Bible?Robert Beckford learned the Bible at his mother's knee and grew up believing that it was literally true.

But, 20 years on from his Baptist upbringing, Beckford is no longer so sure that 'the good book' is the pure, unadulterated word of God untouched by human hand.

For Beckford, who wrote the Bible matters more today than perhaps at any other moment in living memory.

His journey takes him from Birmingham to the West Bank, from Jerusalem to Turkey, and from Rome to Bible Belt America.

Watch the full documentary now

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Ratings: 6.88/10 from 16 users.
  • Achems Razor

    What this doc. portrays to me, all religion, all Gods, are all man made propaganda.
    Made by spin doctors, to further whatever agendas, they deemed relevant for the times.

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Mr. who wrote the Bible?

    I don't understand your jerney. Are you a believer or not?

    It takes faith to believe, something God gines if you ask.
    The 12 that follow Jesus were there when these events took place. Moses was there when the desert events happend. I don,t know how you can take this jerney and still not get the Point? But, in the end you have to make up your own mind.
    Have Peace and God Bless.

  • Dr. Dunkleosteus

    Achems Razor
    February 10th, 2010 at 04:18
    "What this doc. portrays to me, all religion, all Gods, are all man made propaganda.
    Made by spin doctors, to further whatever agendas, they deemed relevant for the times."

    I agree with this.

    This doc made my brain hurt. Contradictions, rewritings, plagiarism, politics, multiple authors, spin, ... Ugh, give it up already, it's a damn book writen by a bunch of superstitious people with their own agendas. I'm tired of ignorant people. Wake up and look around you.

  • Achems Razor

    @ Dr. Dunkleosteus:

    Yes, The man made Gods and religions are all so convoluted and nonsensical.
    They defy any form of logical reasoning. Not unless a person also believes in Marvel Comics!

    They sure do not follow any tenant of "Occam's Razor"

  • Triad

    @Achem

    Ah so thats where you got your name?

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Dunkleosteus,
    I'm not sure if the person in the video is the one answering these comments, but you had the time of your life to find out or better said, seek out what you were looking for and you did all you wanted to descredit the evidence and your believe, that is not smart, even for someone like yourself.
    I'm not going to embark in a pointless argument with you, but, you are wrong, soo, wrong. It does take faith, something you lack of, but, don't worry even Jesus does not wnat you that way.
    My point ends here. God Bless.

  • Yavanna

    Within a minute of the start "doctor" Robert Bedford states "I make a living from studying religion" A few minutes later his mum is "teaching." I want to puke right now - any point in watching further?

    I am so sad for humanity - sometime I watch stuff life this and feel there is no hope :(

    How can people of this age believe in burning bushes, virgin slappers etc. I really am losing my faith that we as a species can have a future. Maybe no future would be for the best.

  • Yavanna

    OMFG I watched more. Screw this we are all doomed :(

  • Yavanna

    I feel so despondent right now. It just seems so ridiculous that the greater majority of the populace can believe in such crude fairy tales, such as those in the bible or proposed by Muhammed I mean!!!! jesus christ - why cant common sense prevail!!!

    I read from people like "1400 years" that seem very intelligent but whom subscribe to mickey mouse BS. What is the point!

    I don't subscribe to trying to equate this BS with reason right this moment. That seems to have snapped where I`m concerned!

  • charlesovery

    Several interesting that about this doc is;

    1. It points out correct historical data. Now remember that the bible three fundamental parts. Philosophy, History and spiritual nonsense are the three parts. There is accurate historical data in the bible. Just not accurate or correct timelines.

    2. The real point of this story is project a meaningful reason for having faith. This is why it contradicts and such. I say this because he starts the doc by stating how he questions his own beliefs and such, but after a certain line of questioning he plays it off as it is all about faith and not historical data or answering the questin of who wrote the bible. This why he goes off on the tangent about there being a bible for just about anyone and that it is the most sold book in the world. These things do not make "faith" a reason to believe in something. If the historical and physical data does not match up then "faith" is nothing more than what I have always stated...groupthink. In other words "faith" doesn't make god exist.

    Miriam- Unfortunately you have stunted yourself to even have a legitimate arguement or debate on religion. "Faith" only exists for those that are searching for something that they need to feel a void. Finding it because others have stated this will help you and give you the answers you seek, but don't believe anything else and surely do not question the world around you. No wonder why Jesus said not to tempt the lord thy god...but allow the lord thy god to tempt you and then go onto state god is inside of you and outside of you. Makes no sense at all. My point is that your faith cannot make your beliefs come true! It is simply stated in the example of what jesus states that your faith is for you to assure yourself in answers that you already know. However, could not find on your own without a book to guide into something that you can never prove.

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Charlesovery,

    If you want to question someone who believes in the word of God (the Bible) then your argument should stay in that subject. For us believer faith is: the this hope for and evedance of those not seing, other wise it would not be faith. Contraeeeeeeeeee.... of what you say, faith is the only thing that can make you believe, with out it, it is impossible to please God. The Bible is His word and we believe in it. If you can find a book that is very good, that it ends there, a book that id very good, but, the scriptures (Bible) is not a book, but, The ligiving, giving word of God.
    I recieve Christ as Lord and Savior, becuse, I believe all that I learnd when I was a child, as an adult I made a choice to follow Jesus, repented, got baptize in water and know I'm a born again Christian believer, by Gods grace thru Jesus. I made that choice, nobody made me. When i read the Bible my faith comes alive, somthing only the Holy spirit can do, He is the one who gives us testimony of our Lord.
    You would have to be born again to know what it means. So when a Christian person talks about The Father (God) The Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit ( The one who duela inside of us),we are refering to our One God. The Creator.
    Its fine if you don't believe, thats your choice,as well as, it is ours and we chose Jesus. Peace.

  • Achems Razor

    @ Miriam:

    The Bible is a "book" written, made, by the rich, religion is made so the poor people would not murder the rich!!

  • Dr. Dunkleosteus

    @ Achem:

    *points to nose*

    Bingo, my friend.

    I would begin a multi-paragraph onslaught on Miriam's denouncing comments, but I honestly can't take someone seriously who doesn't even make an attempt at spell-checking or cohesive sentence structure.

    Miriam, you've managed to make it onto the internet and some how managed to make it into this discussion. Honestly, open a second tab, set it to google, and any time you're not sure of how to spell something, type it in and see what google says. Then, after you've typed out everything, go back and read it through to see if it makes sense to you. If it doesn't then it probably won't make sense to us either.

    I'm not trying to poke fun, it's just that we cannot understand you or your points if you don't at least try to form complete thoughts.

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Dunkleosteus,

    WOW, are you saying that you could read what i wrote???

    Atheist people never get it. FUN,FUN,FUN.

  • Pffft

    Miriam, athiests don't get it, because they realize that there's nothing to get. They just don't fall for the nonsense.

    I'm not even an Athiest, but I most certainly don't believe in this "word of god" rhetoric. You think that because you have faith that makes things any more real? If so, then why not just make up your own god and have faith in it. One that isn't as unbelievably cruel as the "God" that your bible references.

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Pffft,

    This is exactly what i'm talking about; I have faith, YES, but, reading the Bible help ME sustain my faith and trust in Jesus.
    My point is this, if you don't believe, thats your call to make. This is very simple. We chose to believe and that is our call to make. The Bible is the word of God. If you don't want to believe this its OK but, it will still the word of God. Nothing will change that. He said: Heaven and earth will pass away, but, my word won't. Bilieve it or not. Peace.

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    "Never bow to terrorism."
    You could not pursue justice in the realm of the oppressor.

    "There are Hospital for the insane but none for the stupid."
    God in the image of man is not the God that gave us heaven and earth... and eyes are for seeing and not for reading.

    King David's Christ is not King Saul's Messiah... because of the people behind them.

    So, who made the Bible? First thing first, what is a Bible?

    As far as I am concern,
    "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes unto the father but by me." - Jesus

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    The Bible is inspire by the Holy spirit.
    Man is the image of God.
    God is the Creator of heaven and earth.
    King David new about God and Jesus, he new that there was more to it than just a box.
    Jesus is king Davids Messiah.

    You were write on this one: No one comes to the Farther but by Jesus. Peace.

  • JOJO

    Hey christans...do you believe everything you read and are told?

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    Hey, Jojo... Do you think I could believe what you may say or written? Christians are not stupid the way you think of them. Why?... Because there are Christians who are making perfect score on any exams! While you, I presume would answer question what you think is the right answer hardheadedly and not the answer that is accepted by all.

    Anyway, God bless...

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    salomon,

    Hey, fun person. I answer the question in the way that i read it and believe it. I have not claim to be a know it all, at all, just a believer. Its all in the scriptures. read it. may He bless you too.

  • http://hotmail Miriam

    Salomon,

    That answer was for JOJO. My bet. Peace.

  • Yavanna

    Gawd this is like following a discussion between a bunch of drunk dyslexic Yoda's.

    By the way no need to google spell check - just get a decent browser. I use Google Chrome and a spell checker is built in. With Firefox you can get it as an add-on.

  • jimtrot

    This thread largely consists of the mad ravings of the deluded.
    If this is what religion does to the brain, thank god i'm an atheist. scarey stuff.

  • Joseph

    The apostle Paul preaching to the Athenians mocked him when he spoke of the resurrection. Why! they did not like being told they were sinners and one day would face their maker. (Acts 17)

    The same is today, business as usual.

    Read the Bible

  • Hardy

    When I read these posts I have the urge to bang my head against a wall. You can go forward, make something out of your life, think for yourself. Or you can read a book that presumes to tell you everything you need to know about life.

    Do you have no ambition to make up your own mind? No desire to be an independent, thinking being? You can do so much of importance with your existence...

  • Baba

    You say think for your self! please not yet! or their will be full anarchy in the world! because most people of this planet can not think, with religion or not. Please know this if there was no religion in the world at all, do you think there would be peace. Not at all if you no human nature and that's is biology. Civilisation came whit rules and morals... There are no place in New testament that legitimate ware against your enemy, in fact the apposite! this was for Bush and evangelist in US!!!!!

  • DWillis

    Well, as an atheist, I believe the bible makes SOME attempts at bettering mankind. I also believe control is the main reason for organized religion. The story of Christ is inspiring to me, because he was willing to die for what he believed in. Is it true? Probably not. My point is that just because many agree with an idea, one shouldn't base their life on something that can not be proven. I'm a college student btw and I don't claim to know a lot about history and religion, but I can't have faith in any of todays religions no matter how good they seem. I will continue to do good as much as I can but if thats not good enough for your god then maybe that's not a god at all.

    PS this is not aimed toward anyone in particular and I haven't seem the documentary yet

  • DWillis

    keep up the good work Vlatko

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    Yavanna: "Gawd this is like following a discussion between a bunch of drunk dyslexic Yoda’s." hahahaha :) :). You have a talent sir.

  • shane

    Miriam journey is not spelled jerney!!
    Maybe a bit more education would stop you being such a believer!!!!!!

  • Yavanna

    You only picked up on ONE misspelling?!!!!

  • Dai

    The Bible - Words written by man , believed by the weak minded

    "Just because a garden is beautiful , it doesn't mean there are fairies living at the bottom of it" *Douglas Adams

  • Garima

    haha Miriam...I think most of us agree that going by the art and skill of writing...I BELIEVE miriam wrote the bible!!!...

    and DON'T argue...It doesn't matter if it was written aeons before she was born..coz such are the ways of God and his tests of our faith..I KNOW she wrote it coz I have FAITH...and I BELIEVE!!!!

    @Miriam: You surely convinced me to believe in God..coz only HE could have put you here to TEST MY FAITH!!!!! :D :D

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    How old are you, Mirriam?

  • Yavanna

    Miriam!!! You have pulled!! You are defo in there!!!!

  • Achems Razor

    Now there's a good match!!

  • Achems Razor

    I was referring to Sol.

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    Hmmnnn...!???!!!@@@ & #+?

  • BBC

    There are those who follow a particular re-lie-gion, because it is in their culture. They are born into believing the stuff their parents shove down their throats. For these people they are believing the lies that religion puts on its adherents. It is very true that religion is used to control people. If it can keep peace between men and women then it is all good. Most people do not know what they believe and therefore attack people that oppose their beliefs.

    When ever a persons world view is put into question the ground upon which that person stands is shaken. This causes fear. The fear forces the person to feel trapped in a corner, which leads to attacks on people who do not share the same view.

    This goes for whatever religion people follow, this also includes atheists, and agnostics.

    It is hard to argue against people that have experience; whether is be knowledge (most atheists) or a supernatural experience (very few religious people). I think if people could share their experiences with each other as to the reasons why they believe what they believe. And how they know what they believe (experience), this could possibly be more insightful for the rest of us.

    Because watching comments bashing the previous comments gets dull. I do not believe that English is Miriam's first language. However, the "drunk dyslexic comment" was quite funny.

    Two thumbs up!

  • Yavanna

    BBC I agree,

    But the thing is these conversations go round and round and round so I for one have some fun now. I put in the odd you tube link which I find funny and so on.

    I am far more interested in WHY people have certain views, but they rarely mention this. We set variations of:

    It's just you MUST read the bible!
    It says so in the bible / qu'ran etc.
    Out and out scripture replies.
    Faith - you have no faith, you will never understand!

    I believe this is because they CANNOT explain why they believe their particular flavour of sect, or refuse to accept that they had little choice in their indoctrination. In that respect it's much more interesting when a former atheist goes to religion. I genuinely find that fascinating.

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    “drunk dyslexic comment” is not funny but a fooly on someone's peace and tranquility that is just in need to point out for a certain reason...

  • Faith

    The Bible was written by men because there are a lot of mistakes and confusions in it.When you take your time to read it,word by word,verse to verse from Genesis to Revelation and then you can see what I am talking about here.One here just to warm you up:Psalm 84:11.

  • MisMzry

    Miriam,
    You can try and make all the points you want but if you can't SPELL then its hard for us to understand any point your trying to get across. Try typing what your going to write in another document first. Hit spell check and THEN type it here so we can understand you. Hint, if you type it here and a line shows up underneath it.. You Spelled It WRONG.

    Good thing you have FAITH because you obviously don't have much intelligence. But hey, whatever gets you through the day.

  • LifeQuest

    This has been one of THE most interesting threads ever read - for two reasons: 1) It was mentally taxing to actually decipher what some people were trying to say due to abhorrent writing skills, and 2) It was amazing to see the so-called 'blind faith' in action.

    Folks, the abstract idea of 'religion' based upon the basic moral tenants of man is great thing. It gives us a great moral compass to navigate our lives with. However, when it becomes fanatically ritualistic, close-minded, intolerant and blind, that's when it evolves into terrible thing. It always strikes me as woefully interesting to think religion can breed such hatred, ignorance, and intolerance.

    My take-away 'two cents' of the day? Religion means well and is a potential path to personal enlightenment but only as much as the individual allows intellect and logic to play its role, too. (This is a wacky analogy to use but extreme faith in religion is akin to an addict stuck on meth - nothing else makes sense and nothing else matters. Get off the high of blind faith and use your "god-given" faculties a whiff of something else.)

    [ Oh, and stop picking on Miriam. One is only capable of so much, right? =P ]

  • Faith

    There is a difference between FAITH and TRUTH.FAITH is something you put or based your mind,heart and soul into or upon,is what you believe in,either lie or truth,but TRUTH is the reality,is what you cannot deny since there may be many actual witness and actual facts.When someone just tells me that i have faith on ...,I think is not convincing enough until you prove it by its true.If there is not actual facts,that's mean that your believe is vague.

  • Julian

    -Who wrote the Bible? - God!
    -How do we know God wrote it? - The Bible says so!
    -How do we know the bible says the truth? - Well, God wrote it, he doesn't lie!
    In other words, off course Red Riding Hood exists, because the Wolf swears he ate her!!!
    Now i'm gonna watch this doc :P

  • ContrairEone

    Like the creator of the documentary, I grew up believing the Bible as being the ONLY word of God. In later years I couldn't reconcile what I was seeing mankind do to one another, the creatures we share this planet with, and the planet itself - with a God who "is love."

    Harold Bloom perhaps said it best:

    "If you can accept a God who coexists with death camps, schizophrenia, and AIDS, yet remains all-powerful and somehow benign, then you have faith, and you have accepted the covenant with Yahweh.... If you know yourself as having an affinity with the alien or stranger God, cut off from this world, then you are a Gnostic, and perhaps the best and strongest moments still come to what is best and oldest in you, to a breath or spark that long precedes this Creation."

    The more I read and thought, the more questions remained unanswered by the bible itself...so I started to read it all over again. To find that though I had read it throughout my life, I wasn't "seeing" what I was reading...just one instance:

    Genesis. How many God's are there? Two. God and the LORD God. One is dictatorial and decidedly not benevolent (God). The other either softens, or negates what God does, (the LORD God). Yeah, I know that's going to make a lot of Christians angry, but that's OK. They might get angry enough to go read it for themselves and see what I'm saying...for the first time. As it's written in the bible, I've capitalized in exactly the same manner as the bible...it's much easier to find that way, and to follow who's doing what to whom. For instance...we find that God "created" evil.

    There are numerous references by Jesus to his Father. "No one comes to the Father, but through me." "I, and the Father, are one." "No one knows the name of the Father but the Son." Not all of His references by any means - BUT - do Christians believe that Jesus wasted words? That He spoke in unclear terms? They say they don't. They say that Jesus said "exactly" what He meant, at ALL times. That being the case, then the Father and God are not the same being. For instance, He never said "No one comes to God, but through me." Thinking on that, and wanting to find more...I began to delve into the Nag Hammadi Library, and finally started finding answers.

    Do I believe in the Creator Father? Yes, absolutely...and in his Son as well. But, I don't believe in Christianity. I think it's a concept that Jesus would condemn wholeheartedly. As are all the "world religions" today.

    We don't need to go to church, give 10% of our pay cheques (which is NOT tithing!), or go through any other man made motions to prove our worth to society...which is why a lot of people go to church in the first place, I think. We just need to follow along with what Jesus said to do: "Love one another, as I have loved you." If we do that, starvation, violence, theft, slavery, and every evil thing we do to one another and the earth would be impossible. Unfortunately, we seem to place more credence in what Paul said...rather than the words of Jesus. Christianity serves apostle Paul, not Christ.

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    When it comes to faith and truth, I find them in freedom and liberty...

    "Who would give their children snake if they asked for a bread?"

    I agree in a way about 'God is love'... but love is just a word until it is shared...

    The Bible is not about good and bad as others have thought, it is just like our blood... not a good or bad blood but of maintaining them in 2 is to 3 ratio of LDL and HDL. And if you don't keep it that way, you will be sick!

    "Do not eat the fruit of tree of knowledge because you will surely die." Indeed, who could teach the Bible by heart if you'll know what is the the true sense of information that the Bible teach? For instance, a lion will never eat grass just to survive for you... and eyes are made for seeing and not for reading.... and among others of that sort but the worst of the worst is the killings in the Bible. But as it is, Jesus have said...

    "I am the way, the truth and the life... no one comes unto the father but by me."

    God bless...

  • Faith

    Jesus was a fagot because he loved John much than any other and during the last supper John lean on Jesus chest.Then he told his mother that"This is your son and son this is your mother(this sounds like mother in law and son in law)".When peter saw him talking to the Samaritan women by Jacob's well,Peter wondered and thought in himself"What the master doing with a women".Drink my blood and eat my flesh.Damn,this ridiculous;every time i tried drinking it all i tested was wine.

  • Faith

    Psalm 84:11 tells us about who and what the bible talks about.PERIOD!

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    Ah, Superman lives on... a savior of those who can not saved themselves?... I heard that faith before...

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    Anyway, Sons of Abraham are people that did not come out from slavery, this to remind everyone that not all, aside of themselves, are Gentiles. Not one plus a reflection is two but still one.

  • charlesovery

    Miriam

    Having faith doesn't excuse the fact that the spirituality of your beliefs isn't nonsense. It actually helps support it. Like sheep you follow just like your precious word states. No questioning of what could be true, how, why, when, where, or any other type for that matter. Faith only allows you to accept a one sided concept that can nor will be proven. So sense you think you know your word so much then tell by your faith what are the biggest contradictions of your religion?

  • BBC

    ContrairEone,

    I find it interesting that you say to "listen to the words of Jesus instead of Paul"; and you believe in the Father God and His Son. How did you come to this belief?

    Paul speaks of Jesus, and His writings are about Jesus. It is in part that through his message that people can know of Jesus. If a person says they believe in the Father and the Son, that person came to know of them through the writings in the Bible. If they throw out Paul, or any of the writers in the Bible then they might as well throw out the Father and the Son also.

    It does not make sense to me that a person can believe part of something and not the rest. Like Buddhists who say they believe in Buddhism and yet eat food. Buddhists are not to kill anything even to eat, they must wait for the food to fall of the tree, if they pluck it off they are killing that plant. Going to the grocery store they know someone killed that plant for them to eat. Can they really say that they believe in Buddhism? They either believe in it all or not at all.

    If a person holds to part of a belief and not the other part, how can that person say they believe? It appears that this would have an illogical world view.

    I am not attacking you, I am just curious how this view is possible?

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    Paul is a man who believes the word of Jesus but not necessarily a follower of Jesus... His introduction of the Father and the Son is a form of Roman Institution. The father who happens to be a son too has a responsibility to fulfill a duty... in which a position in the Government... They are not the same with "...in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy spirit."...With Jesus, they had their own distinctive existence... but with Paul they are one. We are all aware of what the OT said that God is like the stars in heavens or the sands in the sea... God is not in numbers.

    In fact with Jesus, in everything we know or have learned or in our acquired knowledge, our father will always be in heaven. Our acquired knowledge could never be or will be our knowledge that will promote of the Kingdom of "You know Who". That would be a mockery to the Educational Institutions... Your father may have paid the tuition fee but it was you who were taught not your father.

  • CWILLIAMS

    I usually dont' comment on things like this because why even argue with people who don't know God. My Job a a Christian is to get lost souls closer to him and let God work. What I have learned NOT to do is argue with atheist and people who say things like Oh We're Doomed and the ones who say "Jesus Who"? To all my believers on this page do not worry because HE has already told us those who Deny HIM He Will DENY him before His Father. Sometimes you just have to let people believe what they want. But I guarantee you while on their death bed watch whose name they call out. Rather it be... Lord help me.... Jesus Christ. God I need you.. it doesn't matter Believers you put in work you have tried to show people all the blessings that God has to offer. You done your job. I have watched, studied and read many videos about religion and the contradictions but to KNOW GOD for YOURSELF .. HA! Whats written or not written almost becomes irrelevant when you have a relationship with God. So I cry for you my unbelievers.. because even if you doubt.. I would rather live thinking God is real and die to find out thats he's not .. than to live not believing and not serving God to find out that he Is. So I challenge those who don't believe .. Call out the name of Jesus in your time of storm and stand still and Watch how God will reveal himself. and When he does don't call Him Luck Call Him exactly what he is and what it was.. GOD!

  • ContrairEone

    BBC...I don't take your words as an attack, and you have valid points. First, I don't believe in the Father and Son because of what the bible has to say - I believe because of their works in my life. Many times. One instance, having been declared clinically dead after childbirth in 1975 by two doctors who spent the better part of 8 hours trying to save my life...it was they who signed the necessary forms...I am still here. It's not a belief I carry, it's a knowing. Don't ask me to explain that, because there is no way to explain it. I just know. The bible has little or no bearing on that, because I believe in the bible "insofar as it has been correctly translated." And I know it has not.

    Yes, Paul did speak of Jesus and his writings are about Jesus...but...how many times do they contradict what Jesus said? Paul never knew him, and he rejected the teachings of the apostles who did. They also rejected him for his teachings as being "unsound." Yet the greater majority of the New Testament was written by Paul, and has been accepted without question.

    When Constantine brought the different Gnostic sects together to stop the in-fighting, and determine which writings would constitute the bible so that there would be peace among believers at the time, he ordered that they bring ALL their writings to him. They did, but some sects made copies and hid them, they were found in 1945. One of those copies is the Book of Thomas, which was rejected by those trusted with determining what future generations would come to trust as God's own word. Thomas, unlike the writers of the rest of the New Testament actually walked, talked, and dined with Jesus. Thomas Didymus (meaning twin) was so close to Him, he was referred to as Jesus twin. One only has to read that book to see where at least 3 of the gospels came from. Re-writes of it rather...with some additions, and some deletions. Even the givers of the bible have finally admitted that the books of Mathew and Mark, were not written by Mathew or Mark!

    That being the case...I had to start looking for information prior to the Nicean council. Which is why I've begun to take the time to dig deeper, to go to the periods of time before Christ was born...and before we were given the bible, to find more of the truth. Some of what I've read since making that choice has given me answers to questions I was sure had no answer, some has only created more questions. But it is better to question what you think you know, to question what you've been taught as truth..than to accept someone else's definition of the truth. It's important to me to KNOW in whom I believe, and it's just as important to know WHY I believe the way I do. Having said that BBC...I still think the most important question is not "Do you believe in God and Jesus?"...it's "Do They believe in You?" Peace to you.

  • Explorer

    For any one who wants to see the light: search for "Debate with Jimmy Swaggart. Is Bible ..." on google videos; believe me it's shocking!

  • BBC

    ContrairEone,

    Where did you find that the apostles found Paul's doctrine unsound? Peter calls Paul's writings Scripture, and inspired by God in 2 Peter 3:14-15. Luke the writer of Acts constantly speaks of Paul and his ministry. Paul's writings were written directly to address Jews who were saying to be saved you have to follow Jewish customs. Paul was saying you were saved by believing, and not by works.

    Gnosticsm is a belief that only certain people can understand the things of God, for instance all "cults" claim that only their head has the final answer or special revelation. The teachings of the Bible can be understood by any man who looks at the contextof the Scripture, and understands the culture of the time. However, the Bible says that though they understand what the writing says they still do not see. The Book of John was written directly to address the gnostic teachings that were popular at the time. Jesus says, "that no one comes to the Son, unless the Father draws him/her".

    This could be construed as gnostic. What part does the Holy Spirit play? Is that gnostic?

    God was revealed to you through your experience, and you know it is God who saved you. This would be special revelation.

    How could they believe in me? If God is God, then He should know I exist, and if He is God then He should know me intimately my every thought. In that case because He is God, that would leave the owness on Him to make Himself known to me so that i could get to know Him. Jesus Christ says, that eternal life is knowing the One True God.

    How do I get to know Him? Christians and Jews say God left His word in their Book, Muslims say the same thing. The 4 major world religions all have a holy book. Who's is right? Or do I believe that no book is right? Or do I pick and choose what we like out of different books?

    The latter is futile. If there is only one truth, how can I mix what I like or think is right? 3 half truths do not equal a full truth. And i am left in the same place that i began.

    In regards to the Bible translation, there is the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts that a person may study and learn to see for themselves instead of taking the translators view of the accounts. I have loooked at many different translations on many different points, and they all differ a bit, depending the translators bias. However, the general concensus and meaning are all the same. Even the Jehova Witness' (New World Translation) as much as they have tried to alter it to suit their views, still point to the same meaning. Where they have changed words to suit their view, the context or other Scriptures show the errors and the meaning can be revealed.

    In the end what is Truth and is it relative to different individuals?

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    There must be some mixed up with Apostle Paul and Paul of Tarsus...

  • NoWO

    @BBC
    "what is Truth and is it relative to different individuals?"
    In fact,somehow, it's the most important question in my life too. And now I'm glad that it matters for someone else too.

    I'm questioning myself and my friend that what are the very basic principles of recognizing the truth?
    weekly,We hold meetings in our university and discuss about different things that are important for us.Last week we were talking about that.
    some of My friends ,as muslims, at first place said Quran and the way Muhamad used to live are the principles to kwno whether s.th is truth or not(I didnt accept that because,I am about to use the definition of truth to recognize Islam is true or not,and other things in my life). Then others said that logic must be the one.They tried to proove me that,but in fact they were using Logic to proove Logic,which is not right.

    After all,i'm coming to believe that because the first principles vary from one to one,and even God hasn't given us a clear definition of truth, so truth may vary from one to one.

    I think yes :Truth is it relative to different individuals

    sorry for my awful English

  • NoWO

    Oh,forgot to ask:
    who knows where I can find an English subtitle for "who wrote the bible"?

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    Well, well, truth is in the eyes of the beholder. It is as always been in the art of telling the truth. We all know that there is no absolute truth because of the time factor in all of the reality, as it evolve within the bubble of one's time frame on its own conceptions among others who have the influences to contribute to the wholeness of reality..

    Anyway, the truth is life itself as it evolve on its own creation in the paralleled dimensions of time... but on the thoughts and on its conviction, only time will tell as it is just in the materialization of its consciousness, that it shall be known.

  • js

    the author tried to give the impression that he is a believer but ...

    it seems that there have been some changes that have occurred
    in the bible. something did actually happened in the times of christ for sure but the details seems to be patchy...

    i heard some muslims discussing about it. they were saying jesus was just a man, only one god not a trinity, as the roman trinity, and mathews trying to give the bible and jesus an image compatible to the roman public, part of the bible is true other are falsified intentionally or unintentionally.

    i do feel there is a need in my soul for a belief. looking at the wilderness of the outerspace and seeing the small earth beaming with life and so much sophistication. it could be a chance but it could be not also...

    some extraterrestrial creature coming down to earth and saying he believes in something also would perhaps settle everything. but then even, if they do come some, will still cry conspiracy.

    perhaps meditation will bring some light... zen...stuff

    so lol and keep cool.

  • BBC

    Solomon,

    When i lie to someone, why do i find myself justifying my actions? Even when i lie to that person for their own good, so that i do not hurt their feelings? I find myself saying to myself it is for their own good, this is my reasoning for the lie. This is me justifying what i consider wrong? If it is good then why is it wrong. If it is not wrong, then why do i have to make excuses for myself?

    How does a lie evolve into not being liked in a society? Why do most people not enjoy being lied too?

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    @BBC,

    +# When i lie to someone, why do i find myself justifying my actions? #+

    Consider this statement of yours in inquiry... When you lie to someone, you'll have to justify your actions... That is the art of telling the truth. You are telling others, not to the one you are lying to, that you want to survive or you want to protect others. It is an outward lie but in your heart and mind knows what is the truth about the words! It is heavily argued in Britain, Protectionism.

    I'm not trying to be an adviser to you of any sort but since you asked, I was just obliged to answer.

  • D

    The bible says God is inside you. So listen to yourself.

    I've read the bible in jail many of the days and the it doesn't make sense. It contradicts itself. What my man up there said is the truest **** I heard all morning. The bible is made up by the illuminati to control you sheep. So you don't kill them (the rich devil's who just laugh at you.) and continue being a sheep... that waits at redlights at 2 am when there aint a car near you.

    That believes the "law" is actually for your justice. It takes your freedom away you stupid ****. I'm not atheist by the way. I believe that there is a God and I know he wouldn't have us living like this, where little girls and boys are getting raped. Where people are so poor they don't have any food and they drink mud water.

    Does the Church help these people NO. Good people do but not the Preacher who's collecting your money. He's building on to his church to make it bigger so he can fit more people so he can get more money. Than make it bigger again. God is inside you.

    But God aint in no church where the devil preacher tells you to tithe. give me your money so i can get richer. Christians DON'T follow the Bible! HAHA. They just go to it when there weak minds can't handle the world these Devils have created.

    But hey, keep believing in that ******** and keep believing in the "word of God" You wanna know what the word of God is. It is to stop reading that b****** and go out and start a revolution against these Devils who are making this world a living HELL!

  • Sonny

    It is plain to see that none of the skeptics have even read the bible! Ironically, you are so quick to believe the testimony of an unknown theologist over your own factual investigations, that you contradict the very topic that you are arguing about and therefore you are deemed unfit to even comment on what you believe the bible to be.

    The vulgar comments i have heard on here with regard to Jesus Christ, shows a lot about the heart and soul of those individuals... Where is your anger coming from? Jesus' message is clear and universal, those who choose to ignore it, do so because they are blinded by what they perceive, in this world, to be real.... However, when you are no longer in this world...will your words and message have any meaning and most importantly...WILL THEY SAVE YOU???

    God is love, God is Peace, God IS Real.... Ask him to come into your lives and you will and your questions will begin to be answered!

    LOVE

    Sonny

  • Achems Razor

    @ Sonny:

    (FOAD)!

  • Faith

    There is not one supreme God but there are gods because we've been created by them."Le Us make man in Our image and in Our likeness".After they created man and woman,some gods wanted mankind to worship and praise them,others wanted mankind to become like them and have a freedom of choice,so then the gods were divided over this matter and start fighting over mankind.The evil gods united together to come down and confuse mankind,so they cannot understand each other's speech.Then mankind were scattered instead of being united,and they were taught different ways,so mankind start fighting among them,killing each other,so they can be annihilated from the face of earth.The good gods came also to warn mankind by telling them to love one another and become ONE again like in the beginning but part of the mankind are still weak and are still corrupted by the evil gods with lies,pleasures and goods of this life.THIS IS THE ONLY ISSUE.That's why the Bible is a double-edge swords that contains good and evil,Law and Love.

  • BBC

    Achems,

    What is (FOAD)?

  • lol

    It probably means F**k off and die...I'm not sure though but I read you comment about how you don't feel bad when you lie to people. Who cares who lies to who they are not God but if you go to sleep at night and think yeah I did nothing wrong then you are wrong...God always knows. Don't feel bad for lying to the people feel bad for lying to the creator of all. When you lie to someone apologize to God and feel guilty that God saw you were not telling the truth. Allah is all knowing believe in that if anything and don't think you understand something that is not meant to be understood. If I had to guess I would say that even the best liars are in heaven but only because when they laid their head to rest they asked for forgiveness and were thankful to Allah for their life...bad or good. Don't judge yourself Allah will do that for you. A Salam Aleikum.

  • charlesovery

    @ Sonny-I have read the bible and readit to this day. I research and study religions everyday for about 2-4 hours a day.

    @Faith-Girl your comments are right on! Keep them coming.

    Hey Vlatko better start a forum for this one. The comments are getting heated. Probably will need more room here soon. ; )

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    @RFaith, I am more aware of the "graft and corruption" nowadays regarding written laws... Hebrews are still in my book though, as you may say. Moises is not a Jew in the first place, he was Hebrew!

    Here is something about what I gathered regarding "mistakes" of Jews... "Tree of life" is not the lineage of Prophets in the Bible... but a life form of all living things which evolved... the life form that came from a single life, in which on this case as in the Bible, as the Serpent. The Serpent is the tree trunk and its roots are from its source, from non-living things that came form the light, the Big Bang!. Funny but it is what I conceived of the Jewish mistakes! The 'tree of life' as the lineage of Prophets.

  • Hardy

    @Sonny - Seriously? God is peace, love and all that stuff? I cannot see his love in the history of the last 2000 years, may you care to point it out to me?

    @Solomon - I may be repeating myself, but W.T.F.? Exactly what are you trying to tell us?

  • BBC

    Hardy,

    I thought i was the only one who did not understand a word Solomon says.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    I've read many of your comments @Solomon and I couldn't understand any of them at all. I don't have a clue what you're talking about either.

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    Woohhh... Did I convince anyone? Or it is just that old memories that have served them well are flickering back again?

    Higher intelligence and atheism... was that following blindly of what would be the outcome from hereon? Peace people, although, closed awareness are for people who only works for themselves... Love is for partnership and race, peace is sought for their safety pass, freedom without responsibility, and liberty from irrelevant issues on their personal cause. Whew... that was something to live for ourselves!!!

    Living life for themselves is for sale!!! Religion is out because it is longing for a tranquility of existence... Religion is at fault because of the leadership that makes them crazy of the true reality of existence... they are waking up people from somber out of their congregations stance on faith and belief and create a different faith and beliefs that will serve only their individual selves.

    Correct me If i wrong... but that is just the first stage to adulthood...

  • BBC

    Solomon,

    Thanks for reiterating what the three of us were saying.

    The art of discussion is communication. If people can not understand you; then your point if you have one, will not be understood. This causes a lack of communication.

    Lack of communication results in wars. Hmmm lack of communication and religion have something in common.

  • Achems Razor

    Solomon is trying,
    He is in the Philippines, Trying out his English on us. Not sure, but he is either in college or a college grad. with English as a prerequisite. His brother I believe, sometimes helps out with his sentence structure.

  • Yavanna

    I actually think Solomon is getting better these past few weeks. Some of the words might be misplaced and disordered but with some effort I can understand him much more. Or maybe I`m just getting used to his mode of writing.

    In any case he seems a nice well meaning chap and the discussions wouldn't be quite the same without him.

  • Sandarac

    I don't understand why athiest get upset and angry at believers, unless there's a small part of them that questions their beliefs. If you are an athiest, why do you feel the need to berate those that believe?

  • BBC

    Sandarac,

    Christians berate atheists all the time, whats the difference? And whats your point?

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    For all concern, the tip is always the point... Be it their tip or someone else tip... as long as it is the tip of the sentence. Clear is not as good as understood... but as usual, everything could be muddled up by others who agreed to disagree just because it was so and so of others and not of someone or somebody in their so and so.

    Peace people...

  • Sonny

    @Hardy

    Yes, seriously, God IS love. Before I answer your question, let me first ask you, What is love? Love can not be created by man. No one can tell you to love someone,or force you to love someone,as it is a gift that has been given to the world and it is only when you experience it,that you know that it is real, because you can FEEL it.

    All that is good, comes from God and all that is bad comes from man acting as if he were God. Like all loving fathers, God wants us to get the best out of life. He knows our hearts and he knows what is best for us, but we would never learn, if he did not allow us to make mistakes and so all that is evil in this world is the result of man's thinking he knows better and taking what he wants in order to satisfy his worldly desires.

    God is Love and love is like light... When you strike a match in a dark room, darkness will flee and never the other way around and so, when the world lives in this light and the light lives in this world, only then, will there be no darkness.

  • Achems Razor

    God is love?

    You sound like a throwback from the 70's flower power days, on Haight Ashbury. When everybody loved everybody, and all that jazz.

    What is it like, living in La-La land?

    Tell me, are you waiting for the Rapture??

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    Love that is not shared is greed... :)

  • Yavanna

    Sandarac,

    Atheists do not necessarily have to berate believers to offend them in some way. Just disagreeing and trying to explain why causes some offence. It's not enough for believers to be religious; they also have to be right ALL the time or none of what they believe makes any sense - even to them.

    They evangelise constantly. They refuse to accept any critical and fact bound arguments and generally get offensive first. How about if we were to constantly state that YOU are going to hell for believing something different, say.... one football team is better that another. See how silly that would sound to you?

    The thing is WE as non believers have the luxury of being wrong and correcting our viewpoints with new evidence. It is unthinkable for this freedom not to be considered any person's natural and intelligent response to life's learning curve.

  • Hardy

    @Archems - I had the same thoughts as you while reading the comment but didn't want to post them... until I noticed you already done the job :-D

    I could go on and on about how there is endless hate and destruction in any religious book or institution, how you must cherry pick those novels of fiction to be drunk on "gods" love, about the arrogance of knowing everything about the universe and the life which this so-called "god" created - but I think I'll start a crusade to Jerusalem instead.

    In the end I don't give a rats behind about the crazy-allmighty thing in the sky that just might exist, as long as you just accept one thing: that all organized religion is there for one single reason. Your money.

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    @Sonny, there is so much love is going on with the Atheist... So, hang on to earn... Fagots are not female, they are subdued male... that is the reason why they are the dude.

    Beware though, denial is not a virtue, but it is on some.

  • Baba

    Do not forget human nature! Okey, there is no God or what ever u say. But suffer, unjustness and poverty is still here and who is responsible for that?

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    @Baba... Moses? For leading the slaves out of Egypt?

  • charlesovery

    Sandarac- What I don't understand is why you believers try to make yourselves better than atheists? Holier than thou! Why is it that believers can't just shut up about their beliefs and accept that not everyone, nor the world, wants to be part of your nonsense? Why do so many believers become hypocrits, like you just did in your message above! Why believers can't at least attempt to understand why atheist are atheist or why evil is just evil instead of pointing at it and saying, "oh my goodness this is Satan at work." Are you aware that because of that statement and belief alone millions of innocent people have been killed in the name of your beliefs? Such a loving god you worship that he doesn't have the diginity to act like the god you believe he is and save those from the radicals he has created.

    All world religions need to be abolished off the face of this earth!

  • Faith

    Man were created perfectly and perfect,and woman also.Since the gods were divided,they influences on mankind have divided mankind also.Evil and Good still incarnating in the world,like a cycle,but only when Goods stand united with one language and one spirit,they will have then fight evil to annihilate them from the face of earth.But mankind are still divided, this is the problem.Nobody knows anymore what"Good" is,and what"Evil" is?Some are calling "Evil" good,and other are calling"Good" evil,that's mean,we are cursed with confusion.WE HAVE A LOT OF WEAK PEOPLE TOO.But"Wisdom" is in you,just someone can start asking questions about everything,regardless of what people convinced you to believe is true,become a philosopher and "Wisdom" will start revealing you.ME,I ONLY HAVE ON QUESTION, AND I CHALLENGE BOTH THE "QU'RAN" AND THE "BIBLE",PLEASE TELL ME ACCORDING TO YOUR BOOK,WHERE THE WIFE CAIN,ABEL BROTHER TOOK CAME FROM?BECAUSE THERE WERE ONLY THREE CREATURES LEFT ON EARTH AFTER ABEL'S MURDER.I'M WAITING FOR THE ANSWER!AND ALSO WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT "PSALM 84:11"IN THE BIBLE?

  • Achems Razor

    @ Faith:

    I betcha' there is no answer to your question in the Bible, nor the Q'uran!

    You are looking for answers about from where everyone proliferated from, from three people?, from what? a book, books, if the answers are not in the book, books, then they made a boo-boo, who ever wrote the books forgot to put the answer to your questions in.

    I myself would like to see what answers the religious can come up with on @ Faiths query.

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    Cain and Abel is just one of the phenomenon that occurred during those time and was recorded. But in the modern Bible, the event was deleted. The deleted portion is the lightning that strikes Cain's offering, the lamb, and consumes it. They must have conceived that the God got angry. Would you say of hypocrisy?

    Anyway, they have also, deleted God's reply to Moses who God was... The voice replied. " I am who I am." Which is true in the real sense of it. But because of greed and control of it, "the original design",, they have chosen a new tool, "graft and corruption"... to combat the existence of the reality about God.

    In new testament... How do anyone in the right mind would conceived the sentence, "Lamb of God" is? I think, here.. the killers of all killers, or the masterminds, are still pursuing Jesus in its resurrection. It is also the reason that this vagabond are trying to introduce that; "God have sacrificed His only begotten son." But this and all other verses are not enough to dent my faith in Jesus...

    God speed with Freedom and Liberty.

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    17Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city Enoch, after the name of his son.

    His wife name must be "LUCY"...

    By the way, it was Abel's offering whose offering was strikes by lightning not Cain's. My mistake.

    Anyway, I do believed of what they do is a threading stories... from one story unto another and making them one great story, the Genesis.

  • charlesovery

    Faith and Razor,

    The query you search for is indeed an interesting one. If you look for the subject of the angels falling to earth to fornicate with human women you find that indeed there is historical information missing. However, in chapter five of Genesis it explains how Adam and Eve begat sons and daughters. Whether you believe or not doesn't matter as it comes down to an answer for your question.

  • Faith

    Charlesovery,
    Give me a name,and show me where it says that:"The wife Cain took was one of the daughters of Adam?"I am not talking about chapter five here.The sons of God came on earth at Noah's time,isn't it?You're not even too close to answer my question.GO AND ASK YOUR SPIRITUAL LEADER SINCE YOU HAVE A WRONG UNDERSTANDING,MAY BE HE MIGHT GIVE YOU SOME EXCUSES.

  • Faith

    Charlesovery,
    And why,if Enoch walked with God for 300 years and there is not even a book about him in the Bible,but you can only find it in the Apocrypha,and it's called "THE BOOK OF ENOCH".Probably this is new to you maybe!Google it if you never heard about that.

  • BBC

    Faith,

    Cain's wife would have been his sister. Marrying family members was outlawed circa two thousand years after. Was it outlawed because they knew the kids would be retarded? By two thousand years later there would most definitely be birth defects from intermarrying. The first few generations should not have noticed any real defects.

    Nowhere does it say that Adam and Eve "only" had two kids. Cain and Abel were the only ones they mentioned. God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply. They most likely had many other kids. This is why when God kicked Cain out of the land, Cain feared that people might find him and kill him. In the culture of that time only family members would avenge the death of a family member. Strangers from another land would not care. Adam and Eve had another son named Seth when Adam was 130 years old.

    Cain was already married when he entered Nod, so he did not find his wife there.

    I think most Christians struggle with the idea that Adam and Eve's kids had trailer park marriages.

    In regards to Psalm 84:11, God is obviously not the physical sun, like He is not a physical shield. Word play. Jesus says, He "is the gate". Obviously He is not a physical gate. In v.9 the author is calling their king "the shield". The king would have been placed by the sovereignty of God, this is what they would have believed. The shield would represent protection, and the sun would represent light and life. I am assuming you are linking that verse with what you have seen in Zeitgeist?

    The audience in those days would worship the sun and the moon, the stars and anything fertile, like the Nile River. The Ancient Near East religions all worshiped these things, the audience that the authors of the Hebrew Scriptures would write in language (picture, cultural) that the people would understand to relate to them the truths about God. The God of the Scriptures is always separating Himself from the other gods of the time. God says, that He is One God. Ancient Near East religions were polytheistic. God is constantly heart broken by His people choosing the gods of the people around them, instead of Him. This is why He is always reminding them that "I am the God who brought you out of the land of slavery".

    Faith these are just my thoughts, based on the knowledge that i have acquired. I would like to hear contradictory ideas that you may have.

    Charlesovery,

    I would like to hear an answer on the "sons of God" having relations with the daughters of Eve. I do not know what to make of that verse. I do not think many people could have a suitable explanation for that. What are your thoughts on it? Aliens? What if aliens are angels and we call them aliens because we do not know what to make of them? hahaha just a random thought

  • Achems Razor

    The way I understand it, In Genesis 6:14 The sons of God, who were Alien beings, fornicated with human women.
    Had offspring, (the Nephilim), giants that walked the Earth.

  • Faith

    Nobody still didn't give me the exact answer.You said that Cain had a wife before going to the land of lost,Are you sure about that?Please go re-read that verse for your own shame.Plus Cain told God that,"and it shall come to pass,that every one that found me shall slay me."You can tell that he was referring to people stronger than him.For the Plasm 84:11,how can you compare the Creator to the sun?It thought they said that his light surpasses all lights,so some probably may wanna replace with the moon instead because it's just a representation.Don't try to defend the word of confusion or else you may say thing that you weren't supposed to.

  • charlesovery

    Faith,

    I am not a religious person. I study the bible and other religions for knowledge on the religion and other reasons. First of I never stated anything about Cains wife...at all. I was merely giving you some reasoning about your question. Secondly, I don't care about the question that much to really have an answer on the ready for just anyone, however if you were an intelligence individual you would have to speculate, through natural logical reasoning, that Cains wife was his sister and that Adam and Eve populated the earth through insestual relationships.

    Thirdly, could you please tell me what your question is actually?

    Finally, you shouldn't be looking for answers like this in the Bibnle as most of the stories about this type of questioning is based solely on superstitions and philosophical ideas. There is noway to find the correct answer to that in fairy tales and that is exactly what the Adam and Eve story is.

    Oh Psalms 84:11 is nothing more than a metaphor the author used to explain his personal beliefs. That is all it is.

  • charlesovery

    BBC- Have you read the Book of Enoch? If you haven't you should as it declares this as the actually original sin and the falling of the angels. As for the Aliens theory an this...I have made several connections to this idea. First of all the bible talks of this happening as does the book of Enoch, however what is surprising about this is that postdates the idea of Lucifer in the Garden. This makes the original story of Genesis false because of the timeline in place with in the Bible itself. If God and the Angels are metaphors to explain what the anceints thought Aliens were...they used the correct terminology because angels and the word alien mean the same thing...not human. Secondly when looking at the informatin of the Book of Enoch, there is no decription of falling angels or wickedness before the act of angels mating with human woman and seducing them. This tells me that an add on, probably by mankind, was performed as a segway to the ideas that follow.

    I like your thoughts on this as I have pondered this many of times before.

  • charlesovery

    Faith-I own the Book of Enoch and the scriptures in the Bible proclaim that he was taken by god and walked with god and was never seen before on earth. My idea is that he went up into space in a space ship! lmao

  • BBC

    Faith,

    "So Cain went out from the Lord's presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden. Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch."

    - No dates are given, so how much time passed? How old were Cain and Abel? How many sons and daughter did Adam have? Adam lived 930 years and could have had many children, if we look at population growth today even with birth control, there could have been many people around, even after one hundred years. Was Nod, where Cain built the city of Enoch? It does not answer these questions. Therefore, i do not see my shame, nor should you see shame.

    However, where i see your point which is very valid is in chapter 5:4 it appears that there were no other children till after Seth. Because after the birth of Seth, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. What should be remembered is that genealogies were always listed as father to son, the daughters were rarely mentioned in the culture (There are great women in the Bible, who are highly regarded; most however, are not mentioned; just as most men are not mentioned only the ones who are important to the author for delivering his message to his audience. Also in the creation account women are the pinnacle of creation. It was after God created woman that He said it is good). Also was the author laying out the story this way to show the importance of Seth and his line of descendants?

    As we read through all the genealogies even those of Noah you see that the author is trying to show the importance of certain lines of descendants. The people of the promise of God. The writers in the New Testament also use this form of listing genealogies.

    I think if we look closer at the culture of the time, and study the different literary styles used by authors we can have a better understanding of the material presented.

    In the end we see what we want to see, and believe what we want to believe. There appears to always be arguments for and against, and there is propaganda on both sides. The individual needs to be honest with themselves and not try to prove their presupposition right, but ask all the right questions so that they will know what is right.

    Sometimes all our questions can be answered, and because we already have our minds made up we do not care to hear the answer. Therefore we are never giving acceptance to the thoughts that oppose our own, whether answered reasonably or not. This could be said of me and anyone else on this site.

    Another place you have a valid point is 4:14 who is Cain scared of? The cultural concept of the time would have been the blood avenger, like i mentioned in a previous comment. More insight is needed on chapter 5:4
    - "Then the days of Adam after he became the father of Seth were eight hundred years, and he had other sons and daughters."
    - Is this verse in chronological order? If this verse is chronological then it means that there were other races around separate from Adam and Eve. Is this the exact answer you want? Some things are hard to be exact, this is a good verse for you to look into to "shame" all these mindless Christians.

    The Psalm,
    How could people at that time understand anything greater then the sun? The culture of the time did not have the Hubble telescope. The culture of the time was a farming culture, they were dependent on the sun for many things. This is most likely why most people of the time worshiped the sun. This is possibly why the author would have used this terminology.

    PS. what wasn't i supposed to say?

  • BBC

    Charles,

    Thanks i will take a look at the Book of Enoch.

    Have you seen the Book of Eli? ;) hahaha

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    And about the King David's box... was it the Pandora's box? It was widely believed that they are using electricity to turn copper or lead into gold. Was it electroplating or simply called gold plating... Nice one for a miracle huh? Anyway, I don not believed on miracles, only on restorations.

    "Earth and heavens" in six days.... lol, I only made it in seconds.

    Although I admit that it was a well thought guiding influence for having it down on letters and words. the light that has no evidence of a beginning and life that has a mystical source of a beginning, from non-living things!

    If you have some guiding influence in your life... you'll appreciate the Bible, especially how the losers reacts the way others here have reacted... but in the end, the biggest loser are the people, Jesus died and had been treated like God... the way God was treated.

    Peace people.

  • Bush

    not sure if anyone suggested this yet as I have neither the time nor the desire to go through this whole page. But those who liked this film and understand the faults of religion should watch Religilous (spl.) and Jesus Camp. They're both good for a laugh although sometimes scary as they outline the ignorance of mankind. My only fear of 2012 is that of not the religions of the middle-east but those of Christian fanatics such as Republicans and their supporters as they are in a position of power based on foolish lies and fairy tales.

  • Hesus

    @ Bush

    Agreed. If something bad will happen in 2012 it will be a self fulfilling prophecy. But let us hope they will wait for Jesus like good delusional fanatics.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @charlesovery, am I wrong or those are lectures?

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    Hmmnnn... my posted link could not go through. so, I'll just post the words for you to search them: Ancient Baghdad batteries and Ancient Egyptian Light bulb... Maybe this people knows who wrote the Bible...

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    Origin of Evil... Was it suppression?

    God said, "I am who I am." Therefore there is no good or bad, only the ugly! lol

    Do not stop evil people in 'DOING' their evil ways, the Lord will judge them. Your 'ways and means' will be poisoned in doing so...

    Now, does that tells anyone that there is a Devil?

  • Yavanna

    I know what you mean Solomon - you are talking about ancient pictures depicting the use of electricity and batteries.

    Stop talking gibberish about gods devils and demons and stick to the subject though mate huh?

    Oh no wait this is "who wrote the bible" so carry on! You're making perfect sense :)

    (PS God is the devil shhhh don't tell anyone though)

    Vlatko - yes Tsarion and Maxwell links are lectures; worth a view though.

  • Achems Razor

    Just finished watching the series of lectures by Michael Tsarion,
    Found them to be of interest, especially about the Nephilim.

    And all of us, the human race are from alien origin!

    Always thought I was an Alien! (LOL)

    Come on Solomon, talk to us about something we can relate to and makes sense. Religion even.
    Ask your brother for help if need be, to get your words into the proper context.

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    Yes @Yavanna, this topic is about who wrote the Bible.. not on who to follow and what law to adhere.

    God is the suppressor? Hmmnnn... I thought God created Creation that will be obliged to follow laws...

    Anyway, seems like we have Living God at play here. So, forgive us because we honor our dead.

    @Achems, without Yavanna, you might be in your own dream world... and I know, we need oxygen, like plants who needs carbon dioxide! And not the other way around lol

  • charlesovery

    Vlatko they are in lecture form yes.

  • charlesovery

    @BBC,

    Yes I have seen the book of eli and almost lost it at the stupidity of the movie....lol

  • http://www.paltalk.com Cosmic Cop

    Mythology … and the Campfire Story’s Continue. God in today’s time is still being Molded into what Humans need in a God = “Father Figure for the Insecurities of our Human Nature”. But in Reality, God = Creator of all things, is an impossibility. Logic shows the concept ends in Infinite Regression. Which Proves the Logic for a creator = Something had to Create us, isn’t Logical. Until > “where did God come from” be answered. God doesn’t answer anything.

  • charlesovery

    Cosmic Cop,

    Love the thoughts and the progreesive attitude you present on the subject. So many times I have had this same discussion with the religious that they have no concept Infinite Regression or the logic involved with grander thoughts and philosophies.

  • BBC

    How bout instead of Infinite Regression, circular reasoning? It's the same thing right?

  • charlesovery

    BBC

    No they are different things. One is a theory and circular logis is a repatition of ideas oand statements that prove the same nonsense

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    Luke 12:56
    "You hypocrites! You know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time?

    What is in the heart is just blood, nothing more nothing less... not of who they are, huh?

  • charlesovery

    Solomon

    Yes that is true for you hypocrites who talk religion only to feel safe in your weaknesses and judgement of others.

  • Charles B.

    Sorry guys, my wife has nixed watching this "crapumentary" after about 5 minutes, so I'll let you guys have it. But, I read just today on the news that they have found new archeological evidence that supports the Biblical account of the well fortified city of Jerusalem from the kingdom of David. Surprise surprise. But I guess you just don't sound as intellectual (or can make any money) making a documentary about who wrote the Bible without the "bombshells" as he liked to put it.

  • http://www.paltalk.com Cosmic Cop

    Charlesovery
    Go get your mommy and ask her what it would be for a creator that created a creator that created a creator that created a creator that created The Creator that Created all things would be. Infinite Regression or philosophie?

  • Joe_nyc

    Who Wrote The Bible?

    Isn't it obvious that a few mortals wrote it? Surely, god certainly didn't write it.

  • Dexterdamuz

    A person's religion is quite simply dependent upon Geography, that is to say; where they are born and raised.
    If you are born in Saudi Arabia and feel the need to believe in a God who cares about you and will welcome you to an afterlife you will be Muslim, in the same way as those born in the Bible belt of America and also feel the need for assurance of an afterlife will inevitably turn to or should I say be indoctrinated to Christianity.
    Is there some force tending a light at the end of the tunnel?
    The answer is we simply don't know.
    Many decriers of Religion such as the author and scientist Richard Dawkins will snort in derision at the idea of a "God", be him Yaweh or another representation of a Creator, he will say that there is no scientific evidence to support the existence of such a Creator and he is right, but on the other hand there is no evidence to suggest that there is not an all powerful creator.
    Religious people will tell you that their faith is a feeling they have from within themselves of the certainty of God's existence, but is it not more a case of the faithful being passed down these stories over many millenia which has etched these beliefs deep within the human psyche.
    I personally was brought up a Catholic but the more I read and researched the matter of God the more sceptical I have become of the writings in the Bible, perhaps this is the Devil at work and I am damned to Hell for all eternity but I believe if there is a God of the type found in these ancient manuscripts He, She or It will forgive or indeed not care about my pathetic soul so much as to worry Himself about it.
    Equally if there is no God it matters not.
    So to sum up I think religion when used for the purposes of good can be helpful to people who need some help in their lives, sadly however religion is often used as a way of dividing and causing mistrust and even hatred amongst the population of this planet and surely goes against the basic premise of love being at the heart of religion.
    All we can be certain of is that we will all one day die and return to be part of this universe in a different form to the one we now exist in, perhaps our consiousness will live on in a different form or perhaps not, either way I believe that while we are part of this mortal coil we should try to show love and understanding to each other and allow people believe what they will and do not impose our views upon others, I see the irony of that statement and I never have commented on things of this nature before but I have just come from my Grandmothers funeral and maybe that has something to do with me writing this piece in the hope that maybe at least one person will read it and by doing so come to realise that life is short and far to short to hate.

  • http://www.paltalk.com Cosmic Cop

    1 more time. God = Creator of all things, is an impossibility. Logic shows the concept ends in Infinite Regression. Which Proves the Logic for a creator = Something had to Create us, isn’t Logical. Until > “where did God come from” be answered. God doesn’t answer anything. As humans we have been creating and destroying Gods since our ability to have thought. Our history of mythology proves this. Concepts of things there is no evidence for (or logic for), is the evidence / Logic, for its none existence. Sorry folks. Death is the evidence for the end of your life’s.
    Life's philosophy should be guided by reason and science, freed from religious and secular dogmas, motivated by an appreciation of life and the lives of others, seeking to reach goals of human happiness, freedom and understanding on this earth, in this life!. Not to live life for death.

  • Dexterdamuz

    I see your point and respect it but the concept of infinity is something that can be proven in science through fractals amongst other things, it is therefore possible to say that there has always been some form of "something" not of course this universe. So it is possible that God has always been there, i realise this is a hard concept to grasp but just because we cannot "logically" understand something does not mean that it is not possible.
    Surely all major scientific discoveries were at one point beyond the grasp of those attemptimg to understand them, but rather than dismiss all ideas they could not get to terms with straight away they pursued their investigations and eventually by opening their eyes, so to speak, made the advancements in science that we all now benefit from.
    So basically: open your mind!

  • charlesovery

    @charles B

    we meet once again!

    First off, let me ask...who wears the pants in your household? Why us your wife completely against you watching this doc? What is she trying to hide...the truth?

    Secondly, I have no doubt that they uncovered a archealogical dig that may be proof od "INFORMATION" in the bible. It doesn't support anything spiritual. The bible is full of historical truth of places and such. I'm not sure anyone has a problem with that. The biggest issue is the manipulation of the spiritual information and how it is used against you. Surprise surprise!

  • charlesovery

    CosmicCop,
    February 24th, 2010 at 15:56
    Charlesovery
    Go get your mommy and ask her what it would be for a creator that created a creator that created a creator that created a creator that created The Creator that Created all things would be. Infinite Regression or philosophie

    Well considering that Infinite Regression is only a philosophical theory, what do you think of your question?

    From your last message it sux for me to have ot say that you must be a lonely person, talking to someone like that who compliments you and your ideas. That is sad my friend, but maybe uf you actually would act your age things would be different for you!

  • http://www.paltalk.com Cosmic Cop

    Charlesovery

    Now that’s circular reasoning to side step the point.

  • Reb

    The bible has been re-written, redacted, edited, books added, books removed and entire verses changed or removed at the whims of the ruling priests at any given time according to whatever agenda needed to be upheld by 'god'. Go back and find all the ancient bibles and compare them to the hundreds of modern ones. None of them read the same or have the same books. But hey, this is the word that never changes!!! What a bunch of morons. The modern bibles refer to at least 24 books that the mother church decided we shouldn't read. At any rate, the bible was written by jews for jews and christianity was the brainchild of Saul/Paul for a very jewish agenda. The jews have controlled the gentile world ever since and they damn near control every aspect of this nation while the mongrel christians pray for them and support them.

    As for Jordon Maxwell, I would be very careful putting full trust in that man. His real name is Russell Pine. Look that up and see if he is someone you think you can trust. Sometimes the enemy works best when they appear to be a friend. It is called a trojan horse or just plain infiltration with dis-info. Much of what he reports is true but listen carefully to him and make your own decisions. Tsarion is Jordon's product and I would also take what he teaches with a grain of salt.

  • Yavanna

    Charlesovery,

    I watched the Tsarion lecture - saw it a year or so back and it really is very interesting especially as it offers a reasonable perspective to the argument "Who wrote the bible."

    For one thing I am a believer that this universe is far too big to preclude other intelligent species and it is far more logical to assume that we were "visited" in ancient times and these "people" would be seen as god like to bronze age desert dwelling peasant humanity. They would have been accepted as angels and probably been given a "rule book".....

    One thing that also troubles me when considering the possibility of an Abrahamic god is why would "he" need servants. I had this argument with an old friend of mine a few years back. His argument was that our servitude is our way of proving our "love" to God - that all God wants is our love. So my reply was to say that if that is so; God only created us because he wanted us as pets. And why would a God be so vain as to need this...

    I wonder if these religious people are actually aware of what heaven is. It is written in their books that when you get there you spend the rest of eternity walking in a circular path around God praising his name, saying how great he is - for ETERNITY! Sound more like my perception of what hell would be like.

    Cosmic Clown

    Wind your neck in. CharlesO was complimenting you and you have attacked him. When he tried to put you straight you then come back with this circular reasoning cr^p. What exactly is this point he is supposed to be side stepping anyway. Seriously get a grip. Read his comments again and you may wish to apologise.

    And welcome back Charles B! Well spoken religious pundits seem to be a rarity since you absconded!

  • Achems Razor

    Am also trying to figure out what you guys are talking about.

    It seems that @ charlesovery, and @ Cosmic Cop, are on the same page.

    Just not coalescing their thoughts properly to come together as a whole.

    And then @ Dexterdamuz states that science can prove infinity! Well it can not! Fractals is a math construct only.

    The singularity can only be deduced up to a Planck second, nothing before that.

    It all boils down again to the cosmological argument, that has been raging since Plato. That I might add, to me is utterly boring!

    @ Yavanna, said it in a nutshell, I to have no idea what it is you guys are arguing about.

    @ Charles B: I enjoy conversing with, even though he is religious, I respect him.

  • Faith

    Who wrote the Bible?MEN WROTE IT.PERIOD.

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    @Charlesovery, i feel safe of my religion's situation because I have been who I am as I am...

  • charlesovery

    @ Solomon= interesting didn't Jesus say the same thing? He is who he is?

    @Reb, your informatin is correct but there are other sources that you can look at over the Jordan Maxwell and Mike Tsarions informatin I presented. Take a look at the Kymatica documentary on this great website. It will lead you in the right direction to investigate Maxwells and Tsarions theory.

    @Razor I believe you are correct about me and Cosmic Cop. However, I felt insulted for no reason so I fired back.

    @ Yavanna - I have been researching the worlds religion for over 17 years and I can say that your thoughts are right on point. Your concerns are a proven maturation of your ideas and to prove that even further allow me to say that every religion on this earth has the same shell and inner structures. What I mean as the stories are the same and eclyptic to one another in this regard. Interesting is that if one would actually do their research on this topic they would find that it all relates back to the Eygptian culture and religion. I find this very fascinating and interesting because all civilizations seem to follow the same trend as the Eygptians and the Romans.

    @FAITH - hey thx I have read the Apocrypha before but not for some time so I will for sure give it another go around.

    @Vlatko - just wanted to say thanks for this awesome website where I can let out my frustrations on such topics. Without this I would probably be in a mental hospital or soemthing. Thanks dude. And fell free to join in on the arguement anytime. I know you are keeping an eye on this one! lol

  • Charles B.

    Wow! Take a day off to watch the Olypics or something you guys! I'm rooting for the Kim Yuna A.K.A. The Korean Ice Princess (her face was even on my grocery store's sales page next to the pork and veggies and milk) and the Canadian figure skater who lost her mom on Sunday to medal today.

    You guys made me laugh reading some of your comments!

    Mr. Charles Overy: My wife doesn't wear dresses very often, actually, but it pays to keep her happy. It's only 8:30 and she's already sleeping and music is a lot more soothing than your husband grousing at some documentary he doesn't like in the background. ;-) Kids are both awake, however, and thus so am I. :-) You must be a professor of some kind, either that or so odd you're a bit scary to be a "non-believer" but having studied world religions for 17 years.

    What is the history of the book of Enoch? Enoch may not have written the book. The Prophet Enoch is quoted in the New Testament and metioned in Genesis, but that may or may not be from the "Book of Enoch" which was not accepted as part of the Cannon. You probably know more than I do about that specific subject.

    As far as the "Sons of God" and the Book of Enoch placing the "origial" sin with them before the time of Adam and Eve by having them come down to the earth and sleep with human women, thus creating the Nephthalim or the giant races, I have a thought about that. You said that the Book of Enoch would then invalidate the timeline of Genesis if such was the case. Sir, you seem very intelligent, so I will put some theories foreward for you to answer that question that I don't even talk about with Christians as most just don't have a schema for the points, which is ok.

    Genesis is a "reformation" account. Genesis 1:1 is a creation verse (obviously), but the history between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 is not recorded. It includes the whole rebellion of Lucifer and those he governed. It is theorized that there was a human pre-Adimte race that he goverened that was destroyed by flood making the Earth void and waste as seen in Verse 2. It would take a few days to compile a few verses from Psalms, etc. that allude to such, but as you said, it's not that important to you as you view all the stories as "fairy tales" anyway.

    The sin of Lucifer and the "sons of God" whom I think are fallen angels and not aliens, predates the creation of Adam and Eve, yes. But the sin of Adam and Eve is the sin that has condemned the human race, and not Lucifers. The "sons of God" sin, or the fallen agnels with human women was bofore and after Adam's time but with different groups. However, no preAdamite lived past the time of God's first judgment of the earth by flood, so we are all decendent of Adam and not any other group of people. Yes, of course, Cain married his sister or a neice or something like that. The time when he left and the time he got married could have been a long time inbetween. My wife's family numbers in the hundreds in just 3 generations. It's possible. Sister Zenny is working on her 7th, or is it her 8th? Anyway, I loved in Arkansas, and I laughed at myself for asking at one of my own family reunions, "Is she a 'kissin' cousin'?" and turned out she was (A cousin's child's child's child)--that means she was leagal to merry had I really wanted to even now.

    In conclusion: Don't use the book of Enoch to discredit the book of Genesis. 1st because it has dubious origins. 2nd there are explinations for the Genesis account and before that you have not conisidered. You think them "fairy tales" but I hold them as sacred.

    God Bless.

    P.S. I wish I had your job. It pains me to see a non-believer handle the sacred without a passion and a faith that fills the heart and saves the soul.

  • Charles B.

    ContrairEone: I would like to hear more about your Near Death Experience. I can't believe no one jumped on that one! What happened? Do you remember anything about it?

    BBC: Did you ask about the Trinity in some way?

    It's late, my did's are fussy, and I'm trying to hurry, but I think you mentioned about the Trinity also. No one seems to be able to tag that one very well here yet, so let me just say that God is like water. Water has a molecular structure of H2O, but has 3 forms: ice, liquid, and vapor. Ice is solid and strong enough to collapse a building if there is enough of it, but it's still H2O. Water is liquid and is as powerful as any force on the planet, but's stil H2O. Vapor is invisible and only has much power when it's hot, but moves powerfully when it's steem, but is still H2O.

    God is the most powerful force in the universe but has chosen to show Himself in 3 persons, the Father, the Son AKA Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. The three are separt but the same essense and have perfect unity. Jesus, while he was on Earth allowed Himself to limit Himself in some ways in knowledge and subjected Himself to God the Father's will for that specific time period.

    God Bless.

    Charles B.

  • Yavanna

    Urine can also be frozen and vaporised but that's not such a nice analogy lol.

  • Faith

    This is sad when I see people talking about one powerful God who rules everything and has Satan(his creation)as his enemy.Since God created everything,that means He can destroy also,so how come He cannot destroy Satan?Also,if God sees everything,how come He couldn't see the serpent tempting Eve and Adam?How come He couldn't tell that it will happen since He sees the future?Where was He?

  • Achems Razor

    Charles B:

    I don't mean to nit-pick, but when you say water is always H2O.
    Most water comprises of Hydrogen/Oxygen, but a small percentage is composed of another Hydrogen isotope, Deuterium and Oxygen.

    Deuterium differs from Hydrogen by having one neutron in the nucleus of each Atom. D2O-2H2O.

    And, there are 4 states of water, the fourth state is called,
    "Supercritical Fluid"

    :D

  • Hardy

    CharlesB.: "God is the most powerful force in the universe but has chosen to show Himself in 3 persons, the Father, the Son AKA Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. The three are separt but the same essense and have perfect unity. Jesus, while he was on Earth allowed Himself to limit Himself in some ways in knowledge and subjected Himself to God the Father’s will for that specific time period."

    How do you know?

  • Achems Razor

    @ Hardy:

    Because the "Bible told him so"

  • Charles B.

    Yavanna:

    urine is mostly H2O! Only just polluted water! LOL ;-) Just like "unbelief" is really just polluted and misguided faith, I think.

    Faith, what a lovely name you have. If I have another girl, I've considered that for her name also.

    I have a lot of power over my kids, but I let them have some "leeway" even when they are doing something I don't like, like sneaking cookies from the fridge and thinking they are "hidden" under something while eating them. :-)

    True love offers "freedom" to choose in some form or another or else it would be forced "slavery". As it is now, God sees the "big picture" of eternity past and eternity future. Satan's eternal destiny is a very bad place for a very long time. All those that follow after his ways join him; it's that simple.

    We as human parents have failures and flaws that God does not have, nor can we understand all that He allows or for why, but I do know He is a God of love. God allowed the temptation of Eve by the Sepent (Satan), yes, but it doesn't mean he doesn't care.

    My dear mother almost died this year on Valentine's day. She was moments away from passing with all her systems shutting down from sepsis from a bowel infection. I said how much loved her on the phone and put it all in God's hands. The doctors were shocked when she didn't die but recovered from sepsis all through her body, and in her blood, and she was alive the next morning.

    Where was God in all of the shock and anger, tears and fears and greif and, yes, hope and faith? With us. I believe He spared my mother because we prayed (a lot!) in faith for her. But, had she passed away now, I would have cried and asked God, "Why Mama? Why now?" but I still would have loved and trusted Him. As one person put it, "This world we live in now is just one long 'good bye'; but on the other side, Heaven is one long joyful 'hello' where we understand all."

    "Christian faith" is trusting God, even when you don't know why, by trusting His character. Valentine's Day was the worst night of my life that I can remember, but through it all, faith was all my dear Mama and I had, and may it be said so of me also when it's my time to step through that vail of death from this "mortal life to Eteranl Life" and I see God face to Face and have every "Why?" answered most difinitively. Until them, we must just trust Him. Always.

    Faith, your question is one more of "Does He really care about us, about . . . me?" than "Is He real?" and I would just say, "Yes, to both questions, but you just have to have a little 'faith'." :-)

    Thanks Vlatko for letting me put forth some answers here on your website. It seems I'm always in the minority, so perhaps it's good for "balance". You are appreciated.

    Charles B.

  • Charles B.

    Mr. Razor: You're as sharp as always! I'm sure you're quite right about the H2O thing, and yes, because the Bible tells me so. :-)

    P.S. You're up early! Enjoy the last few days of the Olympics there in Canada! I wish I was there too. :-( A bit tired of Korea.

  • Achems Razor

    @ Charles B:

    Watch Olympics on the news etc:

    I am in Manitoba, Where this dang Winter will not go away.

    It is 9:30 A.M. here

  • ContrairEone

    Hello Charles B.,

    Yes, I remember that experience and one other as though they were moments ago...even though this particular one was 34 years ago.

    I had gone to the hospital to deliver my first child, though I wanted a home-birth...my Mother talked me into going to the hospital instead. Thank you Mom! :)

    After delivering my baby, and what seemed an eternity of laying there...I heard a loud pop. (There was a nurse in the room watching over me as they thought perhaps I was going to have twins.) She heard the sound as clearly as I, and I'll never forget the look on her face when she turned around to look at me...or what she said..."Oh. My. God." I saw her reach for a cord of some kind, I saw the doctors enter the room, then I remember being up in the corner of the delivery room watching the doctors at work, and being completely removed from the body on the table. Her body did not belong to me, at least that's what it felt like to me. She was someone else. One doctor placed a cupped hand over her left breast and kept striking it with the side of his closed fist...while he was saying "no, this is not going to happen!"

    As I looked at the entire scene, I could see blood on the floor...what appeared to be a river of it. Streaked with white stuff, and a few bubbles. It had run from the table, beneath various medical equipment in the room, and had puddled a bit against the wall to my right. I also remember that blood doesn't smell nice in that kind of scenario. After taking time to notice the room itself, I watched what they were doing to the woman on the table...it seemed brutal...so I yelled "stop, you're going to hurt her!" No one heard me, of the now 4 people in the room. One of the nurses started to cry...and the doctor who was thumping the body had stopped what he was doing, and looked at the clock right beside me. I looked at it too. 01:11.

    They removed her from the table and put her on another gurney, and I was quite amazed at the blood that had clotted around her form on the table. From armpit to ankle...and she still had a waistline..for some reason I noted that, and it amused me.

    At that time, I heard my baby cry for the first time...a sound I can't even begin to describe. Pain, extreme pain. It made me angry. The next thing I knew...I was back, trapped in that body again. It was very painful going back, a crushing kind of thing. I asked the doctor why I was so cold, and he stared for what seemed forever...then he said "don't worry, it will be alright - you'll be warm in no time." I woke up 7 hours later on a gurney, tipped at an ugly angle...it felt like I was standing on my head. I slept that way for 3 days...and left the hospital 7 days later. Alive..well..a new Mother.

  • charlesovery

    Charles B,

    Even though your message was for Yavanna I like to read all meesages from the religious. I find most of your information misguided as do I find in your misguided belief in the words "faith", "freedom" under a guise of true love, and of course your use of the word "slavery". Here is why:

    The Christian Faith is supposedly based on Christs teachings and yet the bible subjects the thought of fearing God over 20 times. It even talks about the gifts you will recieve in fearing god and what a righteous lifestyle you will live with the ultimate goal of spending your after life in heaven. In heaven you are to be in a place of peace without hunger or the needs that we as humans must acquire everyday to live. However, if you do not fear God then you will be lost in a life of evil and cast into hell for the second death, which is away from this peaseful place called Heaven.

    The word was in the beginning and the word was good and true, the bible states. It also states that god is good and just and gave us free will and loves us unconditionally through his son Jesus Christ. This was why I gave up his son for us! He loves so much that he had to create a way for us to get into since he cannot be in the presence of sin nor evil. Now Satan was the creator of sin and was sinning since the beginning. Now remember the word was in the beginning, true, and good. The bible also states that he gave us free will to choose as we please. However if we do not choose god then we die in a lake of fire called Hell. Um….that is a condition so he must not love us too much. Satan is considered evil and a sinner in the beginning as the the word says and yet in the book of Job he appears before god in which god points him out. Hhhmmm another contradiction.

    The point is this: With the presence of Satan and hell there would be no reason to fear such a conditional loving god! So there is an element of fear of living in guilt to please someone that only loves you conditionally. There is no free will at all! It is all about the fear to place on something that is not even provable and is just speculation and that is why it is called faith and blind faith it is!

    Through the belief of "faith" you are under bondage because as long as the belief in hell and Satan and the fear of going there, you are under the law of damnation and a second death if you do not,

    1. choose your god
    2. obey HIS laws
    3. fear him

    ...and the list continues. Where in those 3 though, is there true love, freedom, and free will and choice? As long as you have to fear something you can never have free will or choice, true love, nor real freedom and therefore you are under bondage and a slave!

  • charlesovery

    Charles B,

    I will answer your personal comment to me and about Enoch in due time this day, but I am off to work at the moment. It is almost 10am here in the states.

  • Joe_nyc

    So, let me get this straight.

    The bible was written by a laser beam on stone tablets twice(first one cracked) from a flying spaghetti piloted by hallucinting monks?

    I am confused. I thought King James wrote it.

  • njtaaa

    @Cosmic Cop

    Cosmic Cop,
    Unfortunately you have asked a question which only God can answer: What Is The Origin Of God?

  • Yavanna

    Charles B - Yes I`m aware urine contains H2O - I was taking the "peace" :P My analogy stands though! Interestingly your ice cube answer was the same used by an actor playing JC in the TDF documentary Religious.

    Charlesovery - If God is omnipotent there can be no free will. He knows everything past present and future. In which case we have no choice. It is all pre-destined. To take that further he created everything such as............ the tree of knowledge knowing full well that Eve would eat the fruit. Knowing that mankind would be forever born in sin. And of course by creating Satan (long before his pet humans) being a perfect God he must have made him evil with a fully outfitted hell.

    God the psycho (title of one of my favourite Pat Condell YT vids too)

  • Hardy

    @Yavanna - Well that "free will" thing is always excluded from the concept of an all-knowing god... Obviously :-D

    Man, this logic is so twisted I can't understand how even remotely intelligent people can follow it without asking themselves "What the hell?" at some point in their lives.

  • Reb

    Hardy, this so-called logic is better known as BRAINWASHING using fear as the enforcing tool.

    You really cannot have an intelligent debate with the religious types as they do not read the bible and only know what their paid parasite preachers tell them. Anyone who does read it cannot miss the agenda of one group of loonies who claim their even loonier god commands them to steal, kill and rape their merry way through the entire middle east. Such is the Twilight Zone of christianity.

  • njtaaa

    It has been reported that God said:

    "I was a hidden treasure and desired to be known, so I created Creation so that I may know myself."

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    Well, somebody somewhere wonders, why can't God served?

    "In the name of the Father, the Son and holy Spirit..." is not a holy Trinity as three person as One God... It is the Messenger, the Message and the Lord... In fact, there is no God in Jesus message unto it but the symbol of living entity upon us all as is as it is. The one that other people who wants the Democratic leadership of Romans language to be in the Bible is a Roman Government's positions in their respective offices. The tax collector as a father which is a son also... Which clearly states a singular person with a name and as tax collector... also functions.

    The father is obliged also to follow God's law... thereby not a God but a father. It is as it is a father of being one as being so and not of being the other with the Lord.

    God created the creation, not just to exist but to let the creation follow a law, but doesn't mean that the law is God. In giving the law, God give all creation its 'free will' which includes in questioning itself through the wonders and amusement of the Serpent.

    Science is the denial of pre-existence of oneself. To deny that there is a limit on all things that exist. Old age is one proof to that. If the sun would die out, we are suppose to die out with it but science give that someone some hope of escaping them... That hope is science. It gives them promises that old age will not bring them down into oblivion and died out. The will to continue and go on laughing out till the end of time as Jesus have said to us... In religion, it is the Soul... in congregation, it is the Spirit... in leadership, it is the Lord... in existence, it is the humans.... in our family, it is just you who should comply and recognize the laws of God which is bound unto your own body till its end, just like magnet of its magnetism... Without its magnetism, it would be just another piece of existence.

    As it is, the promises lingers on...

  • Yavanna

    Want to buy a decoder.....

  • njtaaa

    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot

  • allan

    "When does this just become a bunch of stupid s*** that somebody made up" - George Carlin.

    Excellent doc, the filmaker is superb.

  • Reb

    Solomon, it is getting very old when one day you type perfect coherent English that actually makes a point and the next day you write like a blithering i****. If you are a clown trying to push buttons you need to get another hobby. Is it drugs, alcohol or just mental? Get help.

  • charlesovery

    @yavanna - a decoder would be great for this. That made me laugh so hard I almost threw up.

    Charles B- You say the book of Enoch is suspect but yet the full books they had to decipher from to get the original Cannon was over 30 gospels. The four that was included are more suspect than the book of Enoch. Look at the differences in the stories of Judas. Look at the differences in the stories of Jesus as an account from each perspective. We also know that the four gospels are suspect because there is historical informatin that proves that Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John didn't even know Jesus when the books were written. This alone makes the four gospels more suspect than any other writings in the bible. At least it does for me.

    The historical account of Enoch, the same one that was written about and discussed in Genesis, does coincide with the first 2 books. The timeline in such that i am referring to is from the garden of eden episode to the actual seduction of human women. The account starts off with explaining him being taken with god to search through the heavens and discuss where man goes after death and such. When in this time frame is this discussed in the genesis book of the Bible? The questin is unbiased because it starts at the exact timeline directly after the murder of Abel. This shows that the reliability of the information converges with what is written within the bible itself. After this it discusses the sin of the angels seducing human women and creating Giants. This places a validity and reliability trigger on the actual story in Genesis. The story of the garden of eden and lucifer. Interesting wnouhg Lucifer is not talked of in the Book of Enoch which also displaces the writtings of Genesis regarding the Garden of Eden and Lucifer decieving Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge. In the bible the story of Noah and flood directly follows the even of the Angels "falling" from heaven to seduce women. Where else does it actually state, before this, that Lucifer and his angels fell from heaven? If the timeline is correct in the bible then it would have happened sometime directly after Eve was created. This alone disproves the timeline that is suggested in the bible.

    Welll this is all I can fit in for the time I have available at this time, but I have more to say so I will return in about 4 hours to complete my thoughts.

  • Achems Razor

    Solomon is my role model!!

  • mj

    @Achems Razor

    i can see you r getting fed up... solomono as role model!!?
    lol

    fascinating watching you guys, having a go at each other...

    may i perhaps contribute.

    1. there are things that are against logic

    2. there are things that are logical

    3. and most important there are things above logic, that is there are many things that are logical but the locus behind them have not yet been found. that is the exciting part...
    at the end of the 1800's it was said that nothing more needed to be discovered...

    it was obvious that anyone who tries to say that everything has been discovered is in fact rendering a great diservice to progress.

    it is true that we have more knowledge than before, but this is not saying that we know everything. otherwise the future will be boring for the future generations...

    well researchers may be biased - some believe, others not-but the facts are not...

  • Achems Razor

    @ mj:

    Am not fed up at all.

    Enjoy these comments, always learn something new... well not always,
    but sometimes. All in all, have learned a lot from these forums.

    People sometimes class me as illogical. To me logic does not always prevail.

  • Reb

    Solomon is Dr. Seuss on a 3 day binge. I still prefer 'Cat in the Hat'. At least it rhymes.

  • mj

    @achems razor

    sorry for the fed up part... i was just amused ...to here you adopted solomon as role model...

    me too i enjoy those debates except when they become personal.

    i think logic there is always a logic... but sometimes human willingly discard it... or can't understand it. something like trying to explain the quantum mechanics behind the progress of the internet to a 4 year old kid, who ultimately tell you in a way or another to get lost just give me my internet connection...

    another comment
    pascal: i prefer to believe rather than not, i don't believe i go to hell, i believe i don't lose anything...believe perhaps you will become a believer...

    or he said something the like...

    comment welcome on pascal's bargain

  • Achems Razor

    Howdy, @ Reb:

    Glad to see you back on these forums, it seems you where away for some time.

  • Reb

    Thanks Achems, I come around when I get a chance. I have been very busy as of late but see a few relaxing days up ahead.

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    Jesus have once said and asked: "It is me whom you seek but you do not believed?"...

    Well, what can I say... words are words to be said as it needs to be said... but on the words alone is not of who would I really be am but of only the words need to be said.

    Peace and God bless...

  • Charles B.

    REB: Not all pastors/speakers are paid parasites. I know of one personally that was offered payment for his speaking, but said, "No, I wan't to do it for free." Imagine that; preaching out of genuine conviction rather than greed! :-)

    Yavanna: Wow! Someone else used my water idea to explain the Trinity? I'm impressed. It was an origial thought all the way back from my college days, but they can use it if they want to. I didn't copyright it. I heard someone say God was like cherry pie; if you cut it into three pieces, it's still the same inside: undivided cherry filling! I thought, "I am not impressed with that analogy." :-(

    ContrairEone: Wow. Thanks for sharing. I know that was very personal. I have a friend Pat that died in the hospital too, and she later told the doctors everything that happened afterwards. They were pretty shocked too.

    Charles Overy: I don't have the access or expertise to completely delve into the books of antiquity and why some were used in the Cannon or not. Wish I were still in college, but I'm not.

    However, I will address just off the top of my head about the authorship of the four Gospels.

    The Gospel of John is unique; it's quite different from the other Gospels and very consistent with a book written much later after the others as it has 90% unique information in it about Jesus, etc. John was most certainly written by "the Beloved (by Jesus) Apostle" as it's humbly without name anywhere in it except a reference to that. That is overwhelmingly believed to be John. Yes, they knew eachother, and were close, but no, they weren't gay as I've heard so many times.

    Matthew was also a disciple. He writes in a "Jewish" zelot way and says "Kingdom of Heaven" rather than use the word "God" as the others. Focuses on the comming Kingdom of God. Very Jewish interest-focused. I think they have it right there too.

    Luke was a Greek doctor. Perhaps never even met Jesus as you say. But, as a scholar, he was brilliant and did a good job documenting the Gospel from first hand sources (most likely Mary herself as he focues on her lineage, not Joseph's, etc.) and speaks like a Greek doctor and focuses on miracles and healing. Wrote Acts also. Says "King of God" (very non-jewish for the time). I think they have it right there too.

    Mark. Mark was basicly a nobody kid! He is perhaps the one that ran away naked on the night Jesus was betrayed. A short Gospel. Very likely the first one written. Not very specific and may have portions missing at the end. The reason I argue for his authorship as being correct is that why Mark? Why attribute one of the first and therefore one of the most important documents of the new church to a minor character unless it's true? Oral tradition is big in Eastern mindsets. Why not attribute it to Peter, James, or even Paul? Barnabas or Silas? Anyone would have been better than cry-baby Mark . . . unless, it's true. Simple.

    Lastly, just trying to keep things short: The Love of God vs. the judgement of God.

    Yes, the "fear of God" is essential, but it's a reverent fear, not a terror or a hysterical fear. Wouldn't you have at least a partial reverent fear of the president or prime minister if he asked you to lunch? How much more, God?

    But, back to love. The Bible says that "God is love and everyone that loves is born of God and knows God" (unselfishly implied). Yet, my father is a brilliant Bible scholor and when I was sixteen he posed the question to me: "Charles, what is God's greatest attribute?" I immediately said, "Love!" He said, "No, it's not. It's justice." I was shocked. Later he went on to explain that God still loves those who do not return His love. He desires that no one should perish, but all should come to repentance (I'm sure you can find the Scripture I'm quoting for me chapter and verse too).

    He went on to say that most do not go to Heaven, but Hell. Why? Not out of God's lack of love, but out of God's justice. God has laid down the rules for life and love and peace and joy, and those that follow it get it all. Equally, those that do not, get the opposite in full measure to what they have rejected. It is not JUST for a righteous God to reward righteousness with Heaven, but then again turn around and ignore evil entirely and for eternity. When my son hits his sister in the head with a spoon when he's angry, he gets punished. It's not fair to him or her not to do so.

    Yes, you have freedom, Mr. Overy, to do as you well please, but there are consequences to your actions. You have "freedom" to kill, steal, rape, or lie, also, but if you get caught by the police, the hammer falls. Shall not the Divine Creator be more "just" than mere fallible human beings?

    When death comes, no one gets a raw deal from God. All pure in heart need not fear Him, and all wicked in heart, need not expect mercy. From the beggar to the president, we are equal in our requirements to see God face to face either in peace or in judgement.

    Last thought: What then about the "love" of God as I said? I read a book by Mary K. Baxster about a Divine Revelation of Hell that God gave her. I'm a hard sell, but what convinced me she was genuine? It was the Love of Jesus towards those in Hell. Time and time again, He showed her those who were lost that He had spoken to over and over again to repent and turn around and it broke His heart when the judgement was passed and they were lost. Some pastors included. I've known a few I think might be there now, like my Assemblies of God pastor uncle who was one of the biggest theives by false means I've ever met. If he repented not for a lifetime of graft in God's name, is it just that he should receive God's mercy afterwards?

    To bring it even closer to home, if my son, my belove son, grows up to be a murderer, I will still love him. But, will I turn him in to the police if I know it? Yes, I think I would. My sense of justice overrides my love for even my son. Such is the case with the Almighty, loving God. When God's requirements are met, then His love is boundless; perhaps that is why He is called "Abba Father" in the Bible as well, which best traslated into English is "Daddy!" That word melts my heart . . . why not the heart of God as well?

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    To Yavanna in particular but to all also. This is my blog a long time ago and am sharing this here because of who created who or what... You all might find this interesting. Getting out of what is from what was is what it is, but as usual someone will be needing some microscope on this one or should I say borrow the magnifying glass of Sherlock Holmes, or take the place of Watson's expertise, so... here they are:

    I titled them "Time in Creation"

    In the beginning… with God, I was created. My creators complied with the call of their longing. They do what is necessary for them to fulfill the desire… of oneness, of togetherness, of explorations, of triumphant closeness of being into the wilderness, of into oblivion.

    As in the beginning, the original design of God was given unto me to do… struggling is a way of life. In the strength and in the homeliness of longing, In strength, we are accumulated and in homeliness of the strength, we feel secured.

    And so, I have my first deliverance upon God's enmity upon our creation. But there is no time to think about it now as I have to find the way of creation into the darkness, swim, crawl, snuggle… strive to the call of the creation of perfection! Struggle to survive. Strive to be the best! To be the one that could penetrate the flesh!… To be the champion! Out of the million, I should be the one! The survivor! The ultimate! And the greatest of them all!!! I should be the first before the whole process of my call into perfection would close upon me… I should be the first!!!

    Finally, I am the champion!!! I have penetrated the flesh for my perfection. My nourishment shall be served. No one will have the will to give me distraction to the creation of my becoming. Everything is perfect. Everything is in my liking. Everything is in its proper stages for my finality of my being. I am the center of the flow of energy. I have all the attention of the life that has me in its natural elements. I am developing into the being of becoming of me. And finally, I have the feeling of security. I feel secured and assured.

    Time goes on and on... but finally, the fear of the day has come… I will be judged, I will be tagged, and I will be brought out to face the world of my creator… But hey!!! Wait a minute...You know what?... The fun dies off… Could we have it as it is as in the beginning? It is more... unto it than of what is on this as it was as of today. :o)

    Seriously, as it is as it was as in the very creation, we should live the life that was upon us. Nothing to fear but fear itself. we were born to face the trial of their so called reality because of the situation they are in and not of the situation we are in. But of what is to be done of who you are in who they are is of becoming of who you are on what they seeing it as who they are of the note of you being who you are. Rest assured of what was in the creation is just a trial of why we are of who are and trying to become. The original design is with us as it was as in the beginning. We are who we are. The compliance is upon us as we are created.

    God bless be unto the one who send us here to become who we are. Peace to all in our way of life.

  • Charles B.

    Solomon: Amen! I think. ;-)

  • Achems Razor

    I think what @ Solomon was saying, is that you should never give up!

  • Hardy

    @Charles: How do you presume to know this? How do you know that, for example, the 'devil' might be the 'good' guy, and 'god' the tempting part in this world? That 'hell' is the desirable place and 'heaven' the horrible place?

    I had a discussion today with a friend, this is why I had to think of this while reading your post.

    Basically, we came to the conclusion that truth is always subjective, even in the most fundamental ways. If the whole world were to believe that 2+3 is 6, would it be wrong? If the whole world would decide stones are beings with spiritual power, would it be true? If the whole world would decide there is a 'good' guy and a 'bad' guy deciding our fates, would they ever be objectively good or bad?

    Basically I'm trying to say that we cannot KNOW any of these things. We have no way of achieving objectivity, which lead us to the conclusion that the only INTELLIGENT response to the wonders of the world around us is agnosticism.

    Its funny how the human being is always striving for a perfect understanding of everything. He must have the answer to everything, to life, death, and purpose. But if we are honest with ourselves, the boldest thing we might ever do in our lives is to accept that we DON'T know.

    In my eyes, this is the highest possible achievement: the overcoming of the ego trying to tell us that we are right and others are wrong.

  • ContrairEone

    Hardy said:

    "In my eyes, this is the highest possible achievement: the overcoming of the ego trying to tell us that we are right and others are wrong."

    Hardy, you've got it right I think. If each of us could set our ego/pride aside when dealing with others, more importantly ourselves - the world would finally begin to know peace, and have no problem maintaining it.

    That sentence is for me...the most important of all I've read in comments so far. And one I'll remember. Thank you.

  • charlesovery

    Hardy,

    Even though there are attributes of truth that are subjective, there is a such thing as validity, logical reasoning, reliability, and external and internal credibilities. With that being stated I must say that you are right about our egos. Our egos are always at play in alll of our everyday activities. Sometimes it is hard to decipher real credible, reliable and valid information from that when it comes to ones perspective on things. However, if we were to look at your examples as determining truth or not I must say that studying theory and then proving it has distinguished such thoughts and ideas. Because of our maturation in knowledge alone tells us that it is impossible for 2+3 to equal 6. The only time that one would believe that to be true is if they never tried to seek the validation of the claim. Once the claim is under research and tested we know that the claim is absolutely false and therefore such theories are null and void. This is what the science community is all about and fortunately we have the technological tools now to go out and attempt to prove or disprove acient claims that were passed illogically. Most of the ideas that your present are ideas that were passed down through generations and these ideas were based solely on superstitions and not fact. This is why the religions of the world are now starting to be, finally, scrutenized and under the eye of validation.

    I know what I say because I study this thoroughly and diagram timelines and connect dots. I purposely go out and try to validate claims such as what you state in your arguement. Hopefully this helps.

  • charlesovery

    CharlesB,

    This is gonna become a large discussion so maybe we should wither take it the forums or maybe communicate via email. My email address is charlesovery[at]yahoo[dot]com. I have started a topic on this in the forums under religion as well. You choose what is most comfortable for you.

  • Hardy

    @charles: I definitely understand what you mean, those were my thoughts during the discussion, too. Yet still, we have to accept that even 'truths' such as 2+3=6 are simply true because of our consciousness and our perception of the world. A culture with fundamentally different 'truths' is just as well imaginable as our present one.

    Even though I despise many, if not all, religions that exist today for what they have done and are continuing to do: I see that they are not able to be 'abolished'. The best we may hope for is a reform, so that they may follow my last sentence (post before this one). But even this, I fear, may be too much to hope for.

    In the end, we as scientific thinkers should recognize that our 'truths' might just be as wrong in 200 years as religious truths are seen as wrong today. I do not believe there is a possibility to answer any of these fundamental questions with means of science or religion, nor any other (presently non-existent) means. In my opinion, the healthiest way of regarding these problems is to accept that we simply do not know. As soon as we accept that, we may be able to free our minds so we might improve our society (then again, what is 'improvement', eh?).

    Don't get me wrong, I'm a very logically thinking person, who will be studying biotechnology in Berlin starting next year. I still must recognize that even the most basic ideas of chemistry or biology are simply based on perception, which are simply products of our imagination (as is the concept of a 'god'). I try to question my beliefs as much as possible, since I don't want to end as religious-bible-thumpers :-)

  • Solomon S. Buyco

    We are all right and champion in our own ways and in our bubbled time. As kids, we are all aware of crossing the line that another have drawn. Our free will will be putting our ego at stake either to cross or not to cross the line.

    Anyway, religion is our individual selves in us that others are leading through our congregations.

    John 14:6
    Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

  • Faith

    Some people call GOOD"Evil",and other call EVIL"Good".THIS BECOMES A CONFUSION FOR MANY WEAK PEOPLE,but WISDOM teaches few people otherwise.If the TRUTH was in these books,the EARTH would be a PEACEFUL PLACE.

  • Charles B.

    Charles Overy: I think that I'd feel more comfortable with the forums, that way everyone could read what is written also if they wanted to, and also if I'm busy or don't care to comment there isn't an obligation to do so, as there would be with e-mail. Thanks.

  • Achems Razor

    I already live in the "Great White North", where the lonely winds blow.

    I will leave you guys to your forums then.

  • charlesovery

    Charles B,

    I can appreciate that.

  • Charles B.

    Ok. But Mr. Razor is my favorite commenter. I just wish he shared my opinion more often than not. :-)

  • charlesovery

    Hardy,

    Through the growth of technology and science we have been able to discount many popular beliefs such as the 2+3=6 thinking. We absolutely know that there is no way that some of these thoughts and prctices can ever be true no matter who chooses to believe them. So, it really doesn't matter if the popular belief is that 2+3=6 or not because we know that it is wrong and that it has been proven false.

    Look at it this way: What makes you know that reality exists? Well what makes you sure that you have a conscience? Both of these thoughts play on one another. Without our conscience we would have no sense of reality. However, without reality we have no validation of our own conscience. I am sure you see my point.

    Good for you that you are going to study in Berlin.

  • dread

    everyman has the right to know, the truth concerning all matters etc; etc;.....

    for any false teaching of any subject shall lead only into self destruction.

    unless its a story... which is already branded as myth

  • Hardy

    Sorry for the late answer charlesovery:

    "Look at it this way: What makes you know that reality exists?"

    That's the point, I don't think a objective reality exists. Think of it this way: If you were dead (have no consciousness), there wouldn't be any 'planets', 'stars' or even a such thing as 'water'. Without being processed by our brain, it's all just a big lump of energy, or what we chose to label as energy.

    I'm assuming a hypothetical life form that has a different way of perceiving the universe, so getting away from the idea of eyes, hands, bodies etc., there might not be such things as 'numbers' (I always remember that we assign numbers to similarly looking things, which are, molecularly speaking not at all the same, it's just how we label these things that make them the same to us).

    This would question the idea of a universal truth. But this also would be getting into things we aren't able to imagine - a non humanoid alien, for example.

    But I think we do agree that inside our own human consciousness, there are basic truths that aren't questionable, such as our little addition example :-D

    I hope I made myself a bit clearer than before... :-)

  • charlesovery

    wow what happened to the current conversation?

  • Charles B.

    I got discouraged with this one. Sorry. Not that I've changed my mind on anything.

    Peace.

  • hola

    I cant believe how self absorbed and selfish cristianity is, where the entire religion is based on notion that our souls are imortal and we will live in heaven if we follow some simple rules, pay the church and blindly believe in their superstitions.

    This alienates us from the reality that we have in front of our eyes, it take away our moral reponsabilty of our daily acts by submiting to these rules and denies us of the true happiness of living in the present, in this beutifull planet as a concience living organism with a finate life.

    Isnt that enough.

    God, why do you need him for happiness ?

    As Epicurus simply stated:

    "If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
    Then He is not omnipotent.

    If He is able, but not willing
    Then He is malevolent.

    If He is both able and willing
    Then whence cometh evil?

    If He is neither able nor willing
    Then why call Him God?

  • puppetandmuppets

    i dont believe in god anymore until god send god's prophet and messenger to mass kill unbeliever

  • Epicurean_Logic

    Can't stand this Beckford fellow.

    For Zeus's sake man you write and teach about who wrote the bible and you don't even mention the most probable and scientific analysis of the language used in the old testament clearly suggests that the were in fact at least 5 disticnt styles of writing.

    the first was Israelite who always called god El, the second was Judaean and always called god Jahweh, the third and my personal least fave was the priestly law giver type, the 4th wrote most of deuteronomy and the 5th was the redactor or compilor who brought all the individual manuscripts together in one book.

    this makes sense when you consider the inane repetition of stories that occur, two versions of the creation myth two versions of the flood story and the list goes on...

    what a joke. grow a brain Beckford you muppet.

    there is a really good and thankfully short account of the 5 authors but i cant locate it at the mo. Even Wikipedia has a basic version.

  • Epicurean_Logic

    @Hardy said

    'But if we are honest with ourselves, the boldest thing we might ever do in our lives is to accept that we DON’T know.'

    well said sir that is the most intelligent comment i have heard to date. As the saying goes the more you learn the less you know.

  • Natividad

    Well what can i say i was a believer i come from a very religious family and yeah i started to wonder if it was true and decided to start a research about religion and from all o have found this was the the final thing i need it to know. this documentary match most of what i had found. thanks Professor :)

  • Candide33

    I read through many of the comments and see the same points debated over and over even though they were answered in this video.
    First, there were 4 different writers of the 5 sections that Moses supposedly wrote, so that is the first lie.

    Second, Deuteronomy was written at the behest of of one of the 2 kings of Judea to frighten the followers of the other king into joining him.

    Third, that king destroyed all the temples in his brother's half of the kingdom so that the people would have to come to him to worship.

    Fourth, The Assyrian wall carving showed that king paying tribute and thus tithing was invented to raise money to pay off the Assyrians, and not to pay god like the bible leads people to believe.

    Fifth, the story from the Egyptian's side was that an Egyptian killed the king of Judea and sent the Jews out to wander in the desert, not that the Jews were slaves and escaped like they claimed.

    The Egyptians who, documented EVERYTHING because writings and paintings were as much part of their obsession with immortality as mummification, never heard of Moses and never mentioned any slaves from Judea means that probably never happened either.

    Exactly how much of it has to be proven a lie before it can be relegated to the fiction and folklore section of the library?

    And did I understand correctly, that many of the believers here stated that they don't care what evidence is presented, they chose to believe lies because it makes them feel good?

    I guess that is why lying comes so easy for people of faith, they are taught from an early age that lying is good as long as it serves you immediate purposes and makes you feel good.

  • BJ

    I read a lot about people with faith dieing, going to heaven, having god explain why everything in their lives happened the way it did and the BIG one... the meaning of life. And from all you religious type I also hear god has his reasons or everything is in his control... so on and so on. My conclusion is his answer will be: "because I'm god". If the meaning of life is to impress someone that may or may not exist to get into a special club then I don't want in. Sounds like a child trying to attached themselves to a group because they have the fake i.d and can get into a certain party. "Yeah sure I'll do anything you say guys, just so long as I get in".

  • BJ

    I did want to attach to the end of that:

    ...Pathetic and juvenile.

  • khadijah

    07:33 QUOTE: "Some Israeli's need this science to prove the Bible is a historical record and that this land is their land.

    Myth – God gave the land to the Jews.

    No amount of discussion of the facts on the ground will ever convince many Jews and Christians that Israel could ever do wrong, because they view its actions as having the hand of God behind it, and that its policies are in fact the will of God. They believe that God gave the land of Palestine, including the West Bank and Gaza Strip, to the Jewish people, and therefore Israel has a “right” to take it by force from the Palestinians, who, in this view, are the wrongful occupiers of the land.

    But one may simply turn to the pages of their own holy books to demonstrate the fallaciousness of this or similar beliefs. Jewish and Christian Zionists are fond of quoting passages from the Bible such as the following to support their Zionist beliefs:

    “And Yahweh said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: ‘Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are – northward, southward, eastward, and westward; for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever. And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants could also be numbered. Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for I give it to you.” (Genesis 13:14-17)

    “Then Yahweh appeared to him and said: ‘Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land of which I shall tell you. Dwell in the land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father.” (Genesis 26: 1-3)

    “And behold, Yahweh stood above it and said: ‘I am Yahweh, God of Abraham your father, and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants.” (Genesis 28:13)

    Yet Jewish and Christian Zionists conveniently disregard other passages providing further context for understanding this covenant, such as the following:

    “You shall therefore keep all My statutes and all My judgments, and perform them, that the land where I am bringing you to dwell may not vomit you out.” (Leviticus 20:22)

    “But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments … but break My covenant … I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it. I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you; your land shall be desolate and your cities waste … You shall perish among the nations, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.” (Leviticus 26: 14, 15, 32-33, 28)

    “Therefore Yahweh was very angry with Israel, and removed them from His sight; there was none left but the tribe of Judah alone…. So Israel was carried away from their own land to Assyria, as it is to this day.” (2 Kings 17:18, 23)

    “And I said, after [Israel] had done all these things, ‘Return to Me.’ But she did not return. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also.” (Jeremiah 3: 7-8)

    Yes, in the Bible, Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, told the Hebrews that the land could be theirs – if they would obey his commandments. Yet, as the Bible tells the story, the Hebrews were rebellious against Yahweh in all their generations.

    What Jewish and Christian Zionists omit from their Biblical arguments in favor of continued Israel occupation is that Yahweh also told the Hebrews, including the tribe of Judah (from whom the “Jews” are descended), that he would remove them from the land if they broke the covenant by rebelling against his commandments, which is precisely what occurs in the Bible.

    Thus, the theological argument for Zionism is not only bunk from a secular point of view, but is also a wholesale fabrication from a scriptural perspective, representing a continued rebelliousness against Yahweh and his Torah, and the teachings of Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus the Christ) in the New Testament.

  • Insomniac

    Child1: Mom! He took my toy!
    Child2: Nuh-uh! It's my toy! I had it first! He took it while I went to the bathroom...
    Child1: You lie! Mom gave the toy to me yesterday!
    Child2: Mom didnt give it to you! She just left it there and you took it! She meant to give it to me!
    Mommy: Oh will you grow up and learn to share allready?! Behave or I'll take it away!!

    Hint: The words toy and mom and metaphores...

  • Amerik

    I believe the bible can evoke a spirit in those innate types who are called to transcend what is before them. But also I believe it traps those who weren't supposed to in an end user type mode, who then, are subsequently led astray by those who intend to lead you astray, either by incompetence,politics, avarice,economics, obstinance etc..
    Thus I believe in God and in Jesus via the fact that a spirit can still be evoked in human that will cause the human to ask questions based on clues that will eventually do the same job as a word of God can only do.
    However I don't trust in the system of how the bible was past down and do not credit the majority of the so-called who's who of the Bible except a few with originality. I believe most was stolen from cultures who didn't "win" and the account of their story was told and adopted by those who had nothing to do with it nor understood the meaning.
    Also the Kings and rulers are definitely not to be trusted and anything accepted and passed down from the ruling powers usually is something that only benefit the rulers.

    In the end I believe only the ancient Egyptians possessed the true knowledge of God and there is much evidence that points to them.
    So I believe in the scriptures but I give credit and edification to the land of Kemet

  • James

    What Jesus preached and the miracles he is said to have performed isn’t necessarily true. After all, he may have been a radical priest who was then spoken about and then as his legend grew, the stories grew. Much like King Arthur and Round Table. Do we *really* believe the books written hundreds of years after his time that he had a *real* magic sword? Come on, he may have existed, and had a nice sword, probably made of a stronger material than the common swords of the day, but not magical. It’s a nice story that got embellished. And we write books about it, hundreds of years later. Maybe in a few hundred years, people will worship King Arthur, and his Knights will be his angels, and Merlin will be his 2nd in command, and Mordred can be Satan.

    But oh wait, I’m sorry, if Arthur actually *does* magically return from Avalon (heaven) to restore Camelot, and bring peace and prosperity to the earth, the Christians will make him out to be the anti-christ… Lol

    But oh! Wait! Arthur wasn’t the only one who was said to return! Maybe Quetzalcoatl, or some other “heathen” god… Here’s the real question, if some false god *does* show up one day, how would we tell the difference? For all we know, Satan’s greatest trick wasn’t making people believe he didn’t exist, maybe it could be having you believe that he’s god, and causing you to fear questioning his religion to the point where you will follow him even if your mythical god showed up right in front of you.

    There’s just too many possibilities to count. God may exist, he may not, he might exist but not be who you think he is… It’s all a bunch of nonsense. In just one post I showed several different beliefs. None of them mine but the funny part is, they all have the same amount of “proof” to back them up. Zero. All you can do is live your life as best as you can, and hope for the best. After all, even your bible says two things that show that it can’t be proven to anyone.

    1) NOBODY will come to believe in god and the church unless god calls them. So arguing will never save anyone’s soul. If you convert someone by arguing a point, you have just proven that you are in the wrong version of Christianity by your own bible. Because it says: “How can he hear except by a preacher, and how can he preach except he be sent?” So only a priest can have a hope of converting ANYONE! You cannot save anyone, not even your own child, unless you simply introduce them to a priest who can persuade them.

    2) The bible and god are matters of FAITH! This is the most important part, if the bible itself (and therefore god him/her/itself) says that it’s all about faith, then by *definition* it CAN NOT be proven! The bible itself states that faith is the belief in things UNSEEN! Therefore the bible SAYS that it can’t be proven. STOP TRYING!!!

  • ron

    i wish poeople would stop using the word "faith" when they mean BLINDfaith....very different things

  • ron

    james....so gawd will talk to me is he/she chooses "NOBODY will come to believe in god and the church unless god calls them" so if i don't beleive its not my fault its up to gawd not me......so if gawd chooses to not save me why do i not go to heaven, not very fair of gawd is it.

  • mark

    faith - confidence or trust in a person or thing

    At some point in time we all have to exercise faith in some or something.

    For example:

    Do you believe in Santa Clause (Father Christmas)? Why? Is it because of the stories you've heard or the books you've read? How do you know they are telling the truth? What proof do you have?

    It take some amount of faith to believe doesn't it?

    How much do you really know about the bible? Are you 100% sure you're right about the bible? What proof do you have? Are you believing someone else's story? Could you be wrong?

    The word of God requires faith and belief in God. The evidence follows those who believe.

  • NiaBeliever

    Who is Jesus praying to ? He's not praying to himself, so why do people worship Jesus ?

  • Question Everything

    The whole idea of believing in something on faith alone is what is stupid and dangerous. Do you really think that an all knowing all powerful God would expect that of us?

  • C.O.G.

    Just a suggestion to unbelievers. Try doing some research into the POSSIBILITY that god MIGHT BE real. I have done the research on both sides of this and just because we cant see it doesnt mean it doesnt exist. I also believe gravity is very real because if i jump off a bridge ill hit the ground. Open your minds to all possibilities instead of stickking to one side of this. Best of luck to you all.

  • Kurrrt

    The God who never saved a life, but caused a remarkable amount of death for thousands of years. Yes the very forgiving God who sends people to hell. Might be real what, a real ghost? The non-existing Gods have only written words of dictators and rulers who payed scribes to write their holy words in bibles for only those to follow into slavery and to obey only them through fear. That was then, but this is now. The invisable and the non-existing are one and the same and still here? Nope, that's silly. Was God or Jesus or angels often seen in the news lately? How about seen live on TV? Because perhaps most likely they don't exist at all? When people die we simply don't see them alive any more. Unless someone tells you to believe they are alive, you believe in the illogical, I believe in cameras, and proof. Do we wait till we die to know truth? even It's the folks who brought you hell, they are the ones who make you believe in a God. Science never located a heaven in this lifetime, or you would see it in the Sunday Paper. You vanish the thought of heaven and surely hell will follow.

  • Kurrrt

    *Faith: a belief that does not fall on material evidence, or any proof.
    *Belief: is having faith in the non-physical. A probability of held thought, not lieing on any factual endings.
    *Heaven: a place which has no designated location, above earths plain skyward, believed to be only a place for souls in the imagination of man to put faith and believe in it's existence, or not.
    *Hell: an imaginary non-physical place, unknown location, deep within below earths plain, in which unfortunate human souls suffer the evils of the dark forces within.
    Once realized heaven and hell are one, and witnessing their following deceptions, doors will open within the mind. Onto new understandings and focus within ourself, and next true culture, without the aid of outside dark forces, non-existing God's and ghosts holding the progress behind in ancient mindsets. Using ancient script for modern day tech is restricting us daily, no thanks to pathetic priests pushing and shouting the illogical selection of their personal script into their followers ear$. Humanity can do it using humanity alone. Lose God the devil will certainly follow.

  • Kurrrt

    Is not knowing and leading, unlike believing and following? You know God is just an expression, of our needs and concerns. You know 40 authors took 125 years to write the bible, dictators and rulers paid scribes in slavery days 500 years ago to write one. The jig saw puzzle of deceptions and the 3 lifetimes it took to complete just about turned it into a novel. You realize the language transfer made mistakes many religions are ashamed to admit, and cannot change the untruths back to truth. Many untruths are believed today because of a simple error in bible translating.
    New findings appear, new ancient script gather, better translation, new understandings, society comes computerized, many wars pass, no new revised bible? Perhaps today we find no God to write a new bible about, so we still use or re-write the ancients? Religious teachings from times of slavery really helping seekers of todays truth? Foreclosures and bankruptcy and repossessions and rising unemployment, increase in crime are created by those who brought religion to this point. A church and state belief which seem to have created up to 300,000 laws in our country and slaves to something as simple as electricity, natural gas, and communication. And all that which is in great abundance for us all. Lose some of the intense greed at the top, shew! Power structures, (Wallstreet) are the true evils of mankind, it's were true God's reside in our country.

  • Willie Smith

    As a child, I grew up influenced by a few different religions.Moms was a Jehovah's witness, Dad was a Baptist, my step moms was a protestant. They each had their own different rituals and songs and rules and regulations. Although I read from 'The Holy Bible'...for some reason it appeared to me that something wasn't quite the same. Three different religions all from basically the same book about One God!!!and each denounced the other. Needless to say,but I will, I was quite confused. I stole something one day, my dad found out,and beat me so bad that my behind and back was literally black and blue.I tried to run and ran right into him swinging his belt...that earned me a nice black eye. The next day I went to school. I lied to the teachers and said a bee hive attack prevented me from sitting and that In the process of trying to get away I ran into a tree.But there was a devout babtist janitor lady who knew suspected I wasn't being truthful when she asked me what happened....I told her the truth. She grabbed my head and said a long prayer, out loud,in the lunch room,in front of all my friends. I was so embarrassed but she was a big woman and all by wiggleing and squirming did not effect my release. This happened over 50 years ago and I do not remember all that She prayed but I do remember her praying to God in the name of Jesus Christ several times. The very next day when i arose to go to school...The black eye was gone as was the painful black and blue behind and back. I've believed in God ever since. Who wrote the Bible...Hell if I know although I'm realatively sure I don't have long before i'll find out. I do believe though even through all the contradictions and inaccuracies The bible is a book written by men,imperfect men..and women but inspired by God. The proof being how many lives have been changed for the positve from such a re-edited book,and how even as is there are so many points that apply today just as they applied thousands of years ago.
    ONE GOD....ONE LOVE!

  • lazibonz

    Why do people care so much what other people believe, what i believe, who i pray or don't pray to is nobody's business. Why call people i@#$%& for their beliefs

  • Rebelliuss

    Quotes from your 'oh so holy and decent book'

    Titus 2:9
    "Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them"

    1 Peter 2:18
    "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh."

    Col 3:22
    "Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord."

    Thats just a little taste of what all you Bible Munchers believe.. You must be so proud..

  • Achmed

    at least we know that Quaran was written by Mohammed :D
    but it doesnt change anything, everyone has his own thought on his mind how to get advantage of the situation. anyway, there is good things in bible(s) and i think its time for the 4th edition :) adapted to this time

  • Adele

    This takes courage to seek the truth and expose the lie's.
    It is so amazing to see that humans are so arrogant and so egotistical, or think so little of themself that they have to beleive that there is some 'special' god just for them.
    And to think that this all mighty God needs their worship and devotion, when we need to take care of ourselfs and this world by stopping the greed and wars and fighting.

  • Joedirt

    Thanks for providing this documentary.

  • RuleSelf ArtisticAllah

    These guys cant show n prove anything the spirit guided them to discern of what to put in the bible or not. i can hardly be"lie"ve that unless i was dumb, deaf and blind.. people take this all on face value not ceeing clearly the value.Holy means something that has not been mixed,diluted or tampered with in any form.. so then this is not holy. it is just a book. there are many truths in it, if you can cee the esoteric means of the the symbolism....

    peace

  • sincere

    A true Theologian is someone who makes his study to find out who God really is. God is Spirit, and to learn of Him, the good part is to pray to Him with humility, because He is God.
    You cannot find true "love" through the belief of the eyes. You cannot find God of goodness without having an opening heart to what is good. Many religious leaders misused the name of God to inflict violence. They are far away from knowing who God really is. In fact, they are against God if they claimed God is good. If one believes Lord is good, why one relies on these people to begin one's argument with anyway? A heart of a child is undivided that he believes readily in what is good. Wherever there's goodness there's the presence of God. God acts through good people through good religious leaders. If your grandmother still lived today, she would tell you that it was not a trick that she did to keep the kids off the streets. Instead it was the spirit of God in them that kept the kids off the streets and to lead a good life.
    Only a simple heart that seeks God finds the truth while the learned cannot. How could one know God of Love and Goodness with a close heart? In seeking God only by his own learnedness, the theologian will certainly become blinded and distorted.

  • sincere

    A true Theologian is someone who makes his study to find out who God really is. God is Spirit, and to learn of Him, the good part is to pray to Him with humility, because He is God.
    You cannot find true "love" through the belief of the eyes. You cannot find God of goodness without having an opening heart to what is good. Many religious leaders misused the name of God to inflict violence. They are far away from knowing who God really is. In fact, they are against God if they claimed God is good. If one believes Lord is good, why one relies on these people to begin one's argument with anyway? A heart of a child is undivided that he believes readily in what is good. Wherever there's goodness there's the presence of God. God acts through good people through good religious leaders. If your grandmother still lived today, she would tell you that it was not a trick that she did to keep the kids off the streets. Instead it was the spirit of God in them that kept the kids off the streets and to lead a good life.
    Only a simple heart that seeks God finds the truth while the learned cannot. How could one know God of Love and Goodness with a close heart? In seeking God only by his own learnedness, the theologian will certainly become blinded and distorted.

  • sincere

    Faith is the gift of God. The Bible is the "words of God" not in litteral sense, especially in the Old Testament. The OT (Old Testament) narrates the experience of God's people with Him. God's words mean his teaching, leading, punishing, loving, protecting... on his chosen people. God in the OT destroyed those who worshipped idols and immorals. When the Isralites chose to worship idols, they themselves became destroyed also. Since God is the author of life created life, he has the right to take it away if humans dont respect his authority nor respecting God Himself. This will of God resides still in our nature: any activity does not applicates itself to God's teaching leads to self-destruction. The words of God in the New Testament completed the revelation who God is through Jesus: his teaching, his life, death, and resurrection. Through Jesus humans see clearly that God loves human as himself. It responded to what implicated the Coming of the Messiah, the Salvator.
    Overall, faith is a gift, for a simple heart. Do not explain the Bible without understanding. Do not explain the Bible without considerating the historical context of the people. If you find the teaching of Jesus good and agree with what the Ten Commandments teach, you are not far from knowing the truth the Bible wants to tell you, God wants to speak to you however terrible and contrary your life is.

  • Lord_Kral

    The Spaghetti monster is the one true God! His messenger is the Tomato and his divine Will shall be accomplished through the Holy Noodles. Fear not, for the reach of the Holy Noodles is long and far reaching!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=684563373 Charlayne Crawford

    Excellent!

  • gallowaygrumblefield

    Very well researched, logically and presented documentary. I was expecting something of a quite different quality, reading that Beckford was from Birmingham. Fortunately for us, that would be Birmingham, England, rather than Birmingham Alabama! Not many criticisms from me, except I note the docu as presented here ends rather abruptly?

  • Cyberbard

    God is a delusion of the masses. I appreciate how you attempt to turn the OT into something good, but to the rest of us it's just another piece of evidence to why we are all better individuals than this 'God' of yours; the only entity on Earth who gets away with genocide, murder, rape, abuse of children, abuse of the innocent, oppression of women, and advocacy of slavery, and is still considered a good fellow.

  • Jack1952

    I want a copy of your Bible. It sounds quite demented.

  • Lord_Kral

    Replace 'Spaghetti Monster' with 'God', 'The LORD', etc...
    Replace 'Tomato' with 'Jesus', 'Mohamed', etc...
    Replace 'Holy Noodles' with 'Holy Spirit'...

    TaDa! A respectable religion! :) Suddenly, you are no longer demented. Welcome to the collective delusion. It's much more respectable than the other ones.

  • Kateye70

    and delicious!

  • http://profiles.google.com/betajiusa Tim Flowers

    Good film but the version on this website ends a few minutes short of Beckford presenting his summary conclusion.

  • ScepticSeeker

    Read the Bible and examine the evidence for yourself. Do not accept what the experts say or what documentaries like this say. If you read the Bible (It may not always be easy) with a real desire and a willingness to know the Truth you will come to know the Truth. Don't take my word for it check it out for yourself. You may just find out that reality is not what you thought it was. You may find enough evidence to convince you that the Bible is literally true. And instead of thinking that Bible believers are ignorant. You will find that you no longer are.

  • http://www.facebook.com/elin.t.berglund Elin Tourniaire Haugvik Berglu

    such a good research, BUT, went in the footsteps of official history and archaeology and they are not Godfearing people, even in Israel.
    The real story behind the scenes is far more exithing and I wish a person like Robert Beckford would have such a courage and love for the truth that he would do a research in this field as well.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Zubrils-Slirbuz/100002352852342 Zubrils Slirbuz

    Some people here very commonly presented what God is and what God isn't. Very curios interpretations of the text. First of all it brings up the question how do you know that your point of view is right but Catholic church and the pope himself during crusades got it wrong? You should start by representing evidence and reasons why do you think that Jesus Christ is the truth and the light. Why muslims and everyone else got it wrong. You have one very old book that you interpret on your own and I should simply take your word for it? I don't see absolutely no reason to believe that any of it is true. As simple as that. I have read the Bible several times and didn't come to any another conclusion even before I even knew what an atheist is.

  • http://www.facebook.com/ElmoPutz David Foster

    You should not take anyone's word for anything. You should find the truth yourself.

    (Learned that from the Bible, BTW... lol)

  • truthalone

    saw the first 17 min.felt that the presenter is not doing a job worth to be called a documentary,by this i mean his presentation skills. he doesn't present the credentials of the individuals and why the audience is supposed to believe them. it would also require faith to believe in the dating systems like the carbon dating system, which hasn't got a global scientific consensus.the Pentateuch , he says is derived from 4 different sources, which again cannot be proven. Hebrew tradition claims moses to be the author of Torah, that is tradition and not claimed as a absolute fact by the scriptures. and the narration of creation is concisely explained in the first and second chapters and the detailed description follows it in the consecutive chapters.these are very basic contradictions that were answered long long back! there are bigger contradictions with which theologians struggle.maybe this implies his knowledge of the scriptures is basic.anyway will try to find time to see the full video!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_IQTY5ZNMDFBEY5KZJMK6X4L7DE Kyleigh

    I have read the Bible, being raised in the Catholic faith and from the omniscient god featured being displeased with his own creation but somehow not knowing he would be so to the two deaths of Judas, I find it to be nothing more than a gruesome fairy tale. Needless to say, the church is less than pleased with those who believe in critical thinking and logical, rational thought processes.

    Nature does not need a god to explain itself. Truth is evident in contradiction to the absurd beginnings the bible espouses, and scientists are the ones that discover it and allow us to come to know it.

    Personally, I feel I may speak for at least some of my fellow free-thinkers when I say that I'm much more inclined to believe the
    experts you so casually disregard than a book written by many people who lived thousands of years before science could explain our origins and destiny as a people and the planet upon which we live.

    The Bible condones slavery, the control and abuse of women, homophobia, and violence in the name of religion. This god sends men to war for his sake, only after forcing them to circumcise themselves. He feels jealousy for our souls when his abhorrence of jealousy is so strong he feels the need to warn us against it in the ten commandments.

    As for ignorance, I find blind faith that is impervious to logic, rationality and sense, that defies literally a world of evidence to its contradiction, to be much more ignorant than having little faith in a book made by barbarians and causing more turmoil between people than any other conflict of man.

    As that beloved hammer says, "Seek and ye shall find." You have, without doubt, fulfilled your name's mission and found a skeptic.

  • ScepticSeeker

    Actually, I am the ScepticSeeker or 'Skeptic who seeks'. That was the closest term I was allowed to type in when I registered.
    I was raised Catholic as well and as a result I have always struggled with my faith,mostly because I was never taught the Truths or Proofs of the Bible. Obviously there is something that is True out there independent of what we think and believe. Are we Beings created by an Omnipotent Personality or are we formed by chance interactions of eternally existing matter or energy? I do not see any other reasonable possibility between those two alternatives.
    And one of them has to be True. Just as Something has to be Eternal. Unless of course you believe that something can come from nothing. I think that would be a greater miracle than God creating everything from non pre existing material.
    Also anything that is Eternal I would define as Supernatural. That being the case the atheistic scientist has to confront something with which they do not know what to do. Because as we know,today's secular scientists don't do the Supernatural.
    Do you know of 'Daniel's Seventy Weeks' from the Book of Daniel? Daniel chapter 9. Or about the man who suffered the punishment due us, in Isaiah chapter 53? They present concepts which started me on the path to realizing there might be more to the Bible and its contents than I thought or was led to believe.
    I have examined numerous religions. I have been an evolutionist. I have examined Buddhism. I have examined atheism. I have been a free thinker. I could go on and on. I know what Nirvana is. I know what universal oneness is. I know the body as a vehicle. I have been around the block(not that I think you have to have been around the block to find the Truth). As any serious skeptic would have been. It would have been much easier on me if I would have learned the Truth as a child and just had to make it my own, or not, as an adult. I mention all this only because the world likes to present Bible believing Christians as being naive.
    When I watch these secular documentaries that touch upon Judaism or Christianity directly or indirectly, I can see how easily I would have been misled by the many distortions(lies?),half truths and false information contained in them if I had not been around the block. It angers me because people have such a hard time finding the Truth as it is. They avoid it like the plague. They look for reasons not to believe, avoiding the Truth. No one has to believe in a void. There is an abundance of real concrete evidence to support a belief in God and that the Bible is True. I still have problems that I struggle with regarding teachings in the Bible. Many things I don't understand. But I cannot deny the evidence of the Truth that I see in it just because I may not like or understand some of the things that I read about and learn. I also think as I learn more. Some if not all of these issues will work themselves out. That is the reason I left my original comment. I think it is fine if people choose to believe in evolution and choose not to believe in God. I don't think it is fine for those people to mislead others into believing in evolution and that God does not exist.

  • http://profiles.google.com/alyoshakaramazov.dse Doug Erhard

    As far as I can tell, and I have no credentials to elevate my opinion, the Bible is a chronicle, gathered from oral traditions and writings over many millennia, which describes a peoples' evolving ideas and concepts about what they call "God"

    For Christians, Jesus of Nazareth being the apex of that search. From what I know of his teachings, I think they've got it about right. I have little problem with his teachings, but I have rather large problems with how they have been abused over the centuries for nefarious purposes, by religious people as well as non-religious.

    Jesus himself railed against some of the leaders of his own church. He saw the pain and suffering they were causing God's children, and one of his missions was to call them on it.

    And now we need him to come back to clean up Christianity as well.

  • MyReligionIs2DoGood

    "I am NOT the Messiah!"
    "I say you are, Lord, and I should know. I've followed a few."

  • Marsthor

    If that("it would also require faith to believe in the dating systems like the carbon dating system, which hasn't got a global scientific consensus") is referring to young earth creationists' spin doctor omission of the reservoir effect then this post deserves a facepalm.

  • DunstinNgo

    the Bible was written by Human, and Humans could be wrong, there were NO GOD written the Bible and its all just the construction of the MIND by Human. The Evident is the Fact, and the Fact is always RIGHT.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Daniel-Bilodeau/100000749330141 Daniel Bilodeau

    The man who narrated this film was terribly ignorant of the true forces behind the modern establishment of the state of Israel and their intentions.

    He states, @ min 32+, that "Modern Zionism relies on the Bible": the modern state of Israel was founded by Rothschilds (who are well-known occultists); by Herzl, and other anti-Jewish Jews, who hated the religious element amidst their people and wanted to rid the Jewish people of it. Herzl planned mass Jewish conversions to Catholicism, etc.; Ben Gurion refused to transport Jews from Germany, calling it a waste of money, which would be better spent on the establishment of the modern Israel -- this, coming from a Jew (definitely a founder of Israel; but definitely not an observant Jew, nor did his beliefs bank on the Bible).

    Ignorance!

    He also misses the biggest contradiction -- that the wailing wall is said to be a piece of the old Temple; whereas, Jesus said that not even a stone of the Temple would be left on top of another -- choosing, instead, to call the situation of the Jewish presence (of praying at the Wall) "full of contradiction", since "God doesn't dwell in Temples made with humans hands", applying a quotation from the "New Testament" (words which te Jewish people reject) to them.

    Also, the fact that MANY Orthodox Jews REJECT the modern state of Israel is sorely absent; that they demonstrate AGAINST the modern state of Israel.

    Ignorance!

    I don't trust the rest of the things this person has said, either.

    I resound the narrator's statement @ min 43:20 : "I don't know what to make of it."

    -----------------------

    It *seems* as if he is making a "tip of the hat" to (so-called) "peace" between Palestinians and Israelis -- when the leadership of "Palestine" (a name given to Israel -- so as to add insult to injury -- by the Roman Empire after they conquered the Jews) have NO intention of making peace at all: their charter calls for the destruction of the State of Israel.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Daniel-Bilodeau/100000749330141 Daniel Bilodeau

    Again, Bush was member of "Skull & Bones", and put many of his friends from "Skull & Bones" into positions of power once he entered office -- the chances of him being a truly Bible-believing Christian are slim to nil.

    Please do research more thoroughly before you make a documentary, "Robert Beckford".

  • gsjikwblao

    When considering the nature of an intelligence that created physical existence 13.7 billion years ago, we must understand that being outside time, which did not yet exist, that such an intelligence would know all that it does simultaniously. This kind of intelligence can be well described as "sensitivity without boundary" This intelligence would not only understand the inevitable formation of the universe from the precisely balanced fundamental forces, but also, along with everything else, what an English king would be motivated to do in the 17th century.
    In our engineering efforts we would not leave things to chance. What we perceive as chance or coincidence is a product of our limited sensitivity. Where sensitivity has no boundary,chance and coincidence do not exist.
    When we consider the history of the Bible's formation we can with confidence reach the conclusion that it cannot be without flaw and any interpretation that exists of it is the product of the personal agenda of the interpreter. This is the very reason that the creating intelligence effected this formation process. This relates directly to the simple nature of the "first cause". This can be understood in a newly emerging interpretation of the Bible that reveals the hidden things that the Bible itself warned would be revealed. In this interpretation, which eliminates all the contradiction that exists in previous interpretations and also solves the "synoptic problem" there is a "first cause" for everything else that science has been pursuing for decades . This is the first and, according to the Bible, the last interpretation of the Bible that the scientific community will be able to sink their teeth into. This is because it makes predictions that can be verified through experiment.
    The reason this interpretation did not emerge before now is fully supported by established understanding in the field of human psychology. The verbal agreement of the "synoptic problem" is a mechanical feature throughout the text that is critical to the emergence of the new interpretation, as well as the "apparent contradictions" of historical interpretations.
    The new interpretation explains how and why we have the perspective that has kept this understanding outside our reach and how and why that perspective is changing. This relates to and is generated by the "first cause".
    If a tornado went tearing through a scrap yard and simultaniously assembled a jumbo jet we could not deny the existence of the airplane despite it's unlikely formation. In like manner is the new interpretation of the Bible that is not subject to personal agenda, is seamless in it's coherence, and reveals itself to be a document of rigid scientific implication.
    This understanding is established in the book called "The Third Measure of Meal" by Frank Jakum

  • Craigzz

    Those damn lying jews, I like this guy, at times he has an expression like, oh bugger it ive just wasted all those years at uni for a pile of bull !!!

  • http://www.facebook.com/CHSvideoman Samuel Ayers

    list names then, since you're so in the know...i'm not Bush fanboy, yet if you make a claim you should back it up....also do you have a Ph.D?

  • Alex Monzo

    I recommend you to see the film again, at the very first beginning he says "I have a Dr. in Theology" so that's the answer of your question if he has a PhD

  • francuccio

    Why in the world would anyone need a reason NOT to do something?! Or NOT to believe something? Wouldn't that be the default?
    (What's with the British spelling of skeptic, anyway? And all those randomly capitalized words are distracting.)
    In any case, nothing you've said makes any sense. What the hell is "around the block"?
    Such a slangy idiom for an attempt at sounding serious undermines what you say, not that I can figure out you're saying anyway, except that YOU have faith. Yippee!
    Religious people are so afraid the rest of us are happy, so they ramble on, repeating themselves and saying nothing concrete.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/James-Johnson/100001766902031 James Johnson

    Hate, Intolerance, Justification for Greed, Self Righteousness, and Judgement is all that was being preached 6 years after Love, Kindness, Compassion, and the ability to look at someone and love them despite their faults saved me from depression, through the open door of a friend who reintroduced me to Jesus. We are no longer following religion because "Truth shall set you free". Our lives now are filled with opportunity to smile and share our love to everyone we come into contact with. We learned Fear and Worry from people who claim to follow the Prince of Peace, but watch and follow the enemy in the form of Fox News which seeks division and speaks slander and bias politics to those weak minded enough not to do research on the topics it speaks of. If you want peace and serenity you MUST stop being religious and embrace your fellow man as brothers against any oppressor who would deny you your rights to make up your own mind, which by the way, God gave us the free will to choose right from wrong. If anyone or any entity is going to take that basic right away from you they are the enemy's agents and not that of Jesus. So what is your church telling you?

  • Paul Montgomery

    Sympathetically, I endured a christian apologetic stipulate to the imperialist's motivation underlying the ancient tribes of the Pentateuch/Old Testament and through Isaiah only to further stipulate to the imperialist's motivation underlying the all inclusive "tribes" of the New Testament only to conclude that to day the Bible, "the word of God," is left to interpretation by every reader-believer while still delivering the true message of God. In the middle (approximately) the narrator concludes "empirically" via archeology (a historian's science) these compilations are preached so that a large group of men will follow a smaller group of men. To be a christian apologetic is to say, these men created this "God" as a subversion gaining our servitude and realizing their imperialistic agenda, which is for the masses to be convinced that gaining knowledge is the original sin sic adherence to their interpretation of the day is the only way worthless sheep, like "us," can escape God's punishment for using that very intellect endowed by our "creator." Therefore, the christian apologetic identifies the tricksters/illusionists for what they are, see how the trick was performed, but enjoy being tricked so much, they cling to the trick and await the next trickster. Why? That shall remain a case by case basis. How?, however, is that the apologetics refuse the reality of natural science, which is man's knowledge and acceptance that there is more to know in a future that is not his own--it is for the generations to come, who also show be another carbon copy--the universe experiencing the universe. Therefore, do what nature and Genesis tell you, and go forth and multiply; as such, DNA shall do what it's been doing for at least millions of years in our world, replicating while ensuring survival of the fittest. Our survival as a species is promoted through society; thus, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Multiplying and the "golden rule" were before the Bible, a part of the Bible, and will remain after the Bible because they are universal truths to which we may every absolutely assert as truth. Now, quit apologizing for this stupefying, fear mongering, sadomasochistic, religion that clearly wasn't good enough for the original followers, the middle ones, or even the ones today except for this bull**** of a fairytale notion that says, "my god is better than your god." You ******* will self-fulfill your own doomsday prophecy and wipe out all of humanity, if not all life on the planet. Such is the result of modern military technology and bronze age religions. Please choose the fruit, the "knowledge of good and evil," and stop being a slave to hate and destruction that is Judaism, Christianity, and Islam (and all other "organized" religions).

  • MagnetoWasRight

    wtf? "if i didn't have a doctorate in theology id probably have a doctorate in drug dealing or baby fathering?" are those the only options?

  • MagnetoWasRight

    "shocked by finding such chauvinism in the heart of the Bible"? another wtf. The one glaring flaw I see in this documentary is that he's far too soft on the religious authorities.

  • devlinwaugh

    considering GB worships the great owl and attends sacrificial ceremonies wearing robes and preying to a false god i take nothing serious when an American opens its mouth.If you are presented with actual footage of the ceremony and those people attending Bohemian Grove it shows what and how politics uses religion to justify mans greed and need.The bible is a book of contradiction and mans wishes, the 10 commandments are 4 commandments the other 6 repeat what the others say.On a final note peace and love are the only words that should be worshiped all the rest are fake i need no god to be good and it scares me that religious people need a god to have a reason to be good,the contradiction is that even then they use god as a tool to carry out bombing children and innocents.God and religion is the ultimate evil i am happy in the knowledge that religion will not last another 1000 years in modern countries churches are closing down in backward countries more churches are being built those are the countries that scare me.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_M6F3RJVEWJ24QKMCHFNVK7ADVE Winston Smith

    Even a cursory look in the bible shows it is overtly symbolic and allegorical because this is how people were taught. Even what were considered profound truths. If I was Christian and wanted to try and better understand the Jewish parts of the bible I would ask Jews about it. The whole thing is Jewish really because Christianity was a heretical offshoot of Judaism. (It could be called Paulianity). Not that most Jews would necessarily know either, obviously, but if you can talk to someone like a mystic (an aspiring 'tzadik') you may gain some insights. The first thing you hear is that what is written down in the Torah is half the teaching; an oral instruction is required to fully understand it.. And that many texts are designed to be interpreted on different levels. (as per Maimonides or Luria and others) Many are purely political. To oversimplify: they have one or more surface or 'exoteric' meaning, and inner, or esoteric, meanings. -lest we 'cast pearls (divine wisdom) before swine' (the ignorant masses). and what we hear in this latter case is usually more cognitive in nature. Of course this all comes down to individual interpretations and most of the kabbalistic literature is from later on. Many see both history and the mind in the bible. None of it is quite as old as people believe because it has evolved so dramatically over time and like most such texts, are based on earlier traditions.
    There is a podcast called The Bible Geek (run by Robert Price who wrote, 'The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man'), that looks at the historical perspectives and traditions.. from which more insight can be gained.

  • faketree78

    If that was what he was exposed to and grew up around, but didn't have an interest and motivation to study theology he may have fallen in to what was around him at the time.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/DeAnno-Isom/1368900884 DeAnno Isom

    and to that I will ironically say Amen

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Will-Rivers/746096832 Will Rivers

    Bronze Age Myths/Cults + Modern Day Military Technology = THE END of the World (via Self-Fulfilling 'PROPHESY')

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Will-Rivers/746096832 Will Rivers

    I like what you are saying but you need to review your belief on 'Free Will'. Very few of us have a CLUE what truly Free Will is.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Aaron.Heaton.Minneapolis Aaron Heaton

    I like the part where the monkeys helped each other

  • Dave Powell

    The name should be changed to the "book of fairly tales". Don't know how people today can believe these stories.

  • TimWebb

    I don't have the time or the patience to read every comment here, but they all seem to trot out the usual atheistic nonsense. Having said that, I am aware that the things of the spirit are genuinely invisible to the unregenerate Adamic mind; so I do not expect anyone without the gift of the spirit to understand what I am about to tell you. The Lord Jesus Christ performed miracles in full view of the multitudes, but still they crucified Him, still they asked for more proof. One of the cardinal validating features of Christianity is that NOBODY who is unsaved can accept it or even begin to understand it. if it were a man-made religion, then many people would subscribe to it; hence the popularity of the Catholic church.
    As it is, virtually everyone hates it, "without a cause". This is as it has always been; the Son of God was rejected, beaten, spat upon, and nailed to a cross. And why? Not because of the good which He did, but because He stated that He was the Son of God. On that single claim, He was condemned and murdered. So what proved to them that He was a liar? Not one single thing. As He stated, the works which He did proved the truth of His words, but unregenerate man could not receive or see the simple truth which was in front of them. The same thing would happen if He were to return today; the only problem being that His imminent return will be in the clouds of heaven with the glory of His father and the angels to execute Judgement. Gone are the days of the infant Jesus, meek and mild. Now all eyes will see the King of Kings. All power in heaven and earth has been given into His hands. This is as it should be, and there is no-one who, when faced with the undeniable reality of their criminal acts, will have a single word to say in their own defense. Judgement will occur in a single day, known in the Hebrew tongue as Yom Kippur.
    Incidentally, do not go to your average Jew if you wish to understand YHVH's revelation. They are almost universally Talmudists, ie they worship rabbis and the Oral Law, which they have made up themselves. Amongst the other satanic notions they entertain is that it is acceptable to have sexual relations with a baby girl as long as she is older than 3. ( Talmud Sanhedrin 55b. ) The Sanhedrin, you may recall, was the body which condemned the Creator to death, under Annas and Caiaphas. "By their fruits ye shall know them".

    Now, my point. Please visit the website "The Other Bible Code". There you will find set out in the culture-independent language of mathematics, the glory and the power and the wisdom of YHVH. This is so powerful, that once again, no tongue of man that walketh will be able to resist it on a single point. Remember the miracles that Jesus did, and view one more of them. I do not expect any one of you to desist from your baying for His death, but you will have witnessed with your own eyes the simple proof of all His claims.
    "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life".
    That promise applies to each and every one of you. You are each responsible for your eternal fate.
    Solomon asked for wisdom, you can ask for it too. God gives not the spirit by measure. Those who were "chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world" will hear this plea from the heart of the God who is characterized as being Love personified.
    "In Thy presence is fullness of joy".
    Enter in.

  • Achems_Razor

    @TimWebb:

    Why do you say the comments here are atheistic nonsense, "Unsaved"?? and why should we believe all the twaddle you have written, just because you have said so? Show proof!

  • TimWebb

    I have given you my proof. It is stated in my third paragraph.
    Read it.

  • Kateye70

    I couldn't locate the website you mentioned. I did find a book on amazon.

    Your proof seems to be a publication about finding hidden meanings in ancient texts...I'm not a biblical scholar, much less an expert on ancient hebrew, but somehow this doesn't seem like a reputable publication.

    I couldn't find a single mention of H. M. Davidson anywhere, and this seems to be the only book this person has written.

  • Achems_Razor

    Codes? give me a break! you could write codes into anything! Creationist scamming! As a matter of fact, prove there was even a biblical Jesus, without any circular logic, and do not use Josephus.

  • Achems_Razor

    Looks like there are a lot of "bible code" websites, what struck me of particular interest was Vernon Jenkins site of...the numerical properties of the opening Hebrew words of the bible suggest that we all are spawns of "Aliens" Extraterrestrials, that makes more sense than some invisible sky friend, since the bibles are chock full of aliens, spaceships, chariots of fire, wheels within wheels, et al, why it even says in the bible... "the sons of gods".

    That would be as true as to what you are saying.

  • alg11297

    Moses couldn't write about his own death? In prophesy couldn't you see your own death and write about it. The idea of the 4 sources.....why can't we find any evidence of any of these manuscripts ever existing?
    Read Who Really wrote the bible. My God, how dense can you be?

  • TanongSak

    If you think that the whole point of the Genesis story, that Adam and Eve ate a piece of fruit, is that Adam and Eve ate a piece of fruit, then you've understood nothing. The biblical narratives are "fairy tales" to those who are only capable of reading them that way.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=755998229 Rene Tiongson

    I've been in catholic schools all the way to college and the more I learn the farther I stay out of church.

  • Dan

    At 39:03, his yarmulke falls to the ground. They just keep rolling like pros.

  • Dan

    Actually... a few seconds before. 38:57-ish. Because I know you don't want to miss this!

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/MNLV37E3YTVREJIA7NJ2HO4VOQ Opincaru

    I believe the bible was written by gypsies to manipulate and subjugate the rest of the people and steal their happiness!

  • http://www.facebook.com/precious007 Alexandru Matei

    I don't know or care who wrote it but other evidence and documentaries clearly shows that a psychopath or a bunch of psychopats have written it - to induce fear and manipulate the masses.

    Period.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=726118518 Timothy Urbach

    the bible and all yes all religion was created by man for one reason profit got to make money, as religion says money is the root of all evil so give us yours

  • Ryan Hahn

    My father spent 4 years in seminary to become a minister to serve the public. After several years of ministry, he told me one day, "Son, you don't have to go to church anymore, because it's all business".
    He walked away and became a sign painter.

  • Bungaroosh

    2 reasons - money and control.

  • anna miller

    This documentary gives basic scholarly evidence that the Old Testament or Torah, was written by 4 different men, not Moses. Also explains how the last books of the Old Testament, written by men, predicted the arrival of a Messiah. The self-fulfilling prophecy or New Testament, was written by men decades after the death of Jesus. The Council Of Nicaea in the 3rd century, determined among the numerous interpretations of the scripts, what would become the orthodox bible. Learn history of early religious politics and how church leaders manipulated people. Why aren't more religious people interested in scholarship of history, archeology and legitimate research on ancient scripts? It is amazing how tightly people hold on to their belief systems, even with proof to the contrary. We are 21st century humans under the influence of a three thousand year old religion.

  • Black Scholar

    Stolen Black Egyptian Spirituality. Plato, socrates, aristotle etc. all stole that beautiful knowledge out of africa. I mean, how did Greece sprang up out of nothingness.

  • Black historian

    Egyptian were not entirely black. The pour slave population maybe. But DNA evidence has shown that modern Egyptians are direct descendants of the pyramid building Egyptians. There is no evidence of an advanced black African civilization that Aryan civilizations Stole from or learned from that they owe some dept of gratitude. Get over it it's not a race thing. Your ancestors didn't magically get thrown back into antiquity by some white conspiracy. By the time Europeans reached west Africa two thirds of the population were already slaves. Black people who put black people into slavery. There is just no evidence to support your claims. Afrocentric hacks that call themselves scholars can't change history with a few web pages and interviews on public access channels. I sorry but your claims however well intentioned are baseless and unfounded.

  • Jennifer WarHawk

    God bless you Tim...what a beautiful, heart-felt, and truthful response! I only wish those who refuse to see will allow the scales to drop from their eyes so they can experience the Jesus that we know. The pure joy of knowing and loving Him is unrivaled...I wish they could experience it and understand it.

    I was lost in Paganism and then Atheism for a combined total of 16 years before the Holy Spirit pursued me and brought me back to my roots...to Jesus. I think of all of those years I wasted doubting and turning my back on my Lord. All those sin filled "experiences" I had where I defiled the temple my Jesus gave to me (my body) and where I was led and led so many astray when I could have led them to the Lord. I am eternally grateful that Jesus has forgiven that time in my life and I pray that I can make up for it with the life I have now.

    Anyway, your response here was refreshing and I commend you for entering into the snake's den to attempt to shine a bit of light of truth in it.

  • Achems_Razor

    Are you calling us unbelievers in your invisible sky gods snake's?
    Funny religee's.