Zeitgeist: Addendum

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Zeitgeist: Addendum

The second documentary film, Zeitgeist: Addendum, attempts to locate the root causes of this pervasive social corruption, while offering a solution.

This solution is not based not on politics, morality, laws, or any other establishment notions of human affairs, but rather on a modern, non-superstitious based understanding of what we are and how we align with nature, to which we are a part.

The work advocates a new social system which is updated to present day knowledge, highly influenced by the life long work of Jacque Fresco and The Venus Project.

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Comments and User Reviews

  • Mitch Graves

    Zeitgeist (original) has been so thoroughly disproved that no thinking person will bother with this one. Not only were there innumerable flat out lies in the 1st, but the author was confronted with a number of them and double talked like the sleaziest of politicians. Do yourself a favor before wasting any time on this silly woman's foolish ideas; go and watch the specific answers to the host of lies and fabrications with which she filled up the 1st one. There are entire websites devoted to documents and quotes disproving most of her inane rantings. She is trying to start a cult and get rich off the gullible.

  • Lisa O

    I would love to know who thoroughly disproved the original Zeitgeist. I do not know of anyone who has. I doubt Mitch Graves even watched the film. He is saying woman's ideas. The director and narrator of both is a man, Peter Joseph.

    I thought the first one was the best film I had ever seen until this one. This one is even better. Whether you agree with all of the ideas or not, both films are very thought provocating to say the very least. They both tell you not to believe evertything you hear.

    In addition, if you go to the website for the original, you can find extensive documentation for the information presented.

  • Lisa O

    I apologize for the typos. I meant thought provoking and everything later on. I guess I made some typos in frustration with Mitch's comments.

  • http://- Eric S.

    how would this system supply of food to the population? Who would produce the food? How would it be distributed?

    Very thought provoking video.

  • Merlin

    In the end of the day it is only natural that every man, woman and child should know how to feed themselves, We have done this since the beginning of evolution, (think monkey if box not big enough)
    And distribution is hardly a problem in a society that understands how to share and co-ordinate properly. I'd say resource based economy all the way.

  • http://enjoyfrancis.com enjoyfrancis

    I believe the idea of zeitgeist. I'm a fan.

    I chose to believe the idea that has proof rather than believe on what christians teach. Christians claims they know everything, you need to believe them because they told you to.

    some people just can't let go of the knowledge they were taught their whole life.

    Can christians prove the great flood?
    Why was the bone of Jesus found?
    Can they prove miracles are true? NO!!!
    How true is the bible? Its just a book which is interpreted by the priests and anyone who reads it.

    How many religious institutions today were competing for the claim that they save people's soul. Does the money they collect are diposited on jesus' bank account?

  • thinkforyourself

    This movie is based on facts, however there is a big problem; the movie/movement seems to believe that all people are basicly good. That is sadly not true. You only have to look at crime documentaries to realize that seriekillers, rapists, child molesters and other sick individuals doesn't disappear just because you change the economical system. If they base their concept on a naive viewpoint, not many problems will be solved, instead there will be new ones.

  • ben w

    changing the economic system isn't the problem, nor does Zeitgeist propose that economic change will change the human being. it is the other way around - YOU first, then the system. drop everything you know - I, we, they, you - go beyond thought and percieve what you ACTUALLY ARE in what IS, right now, which is all there is. then we have a system based on the PERCIEVABLE fact that we are all the same thing, beyond the 'me' and 'you' and all the conflict that inevitably arises out of division.

  • http://www.zeitgeistmovement.com Sander

    If you want to be a member, join the zeitgeist movement.

    you know that Jesus said love you neighbour as you love yourself.
    Jesus said we are all one.
    Zeitgeist preaches the exact same thing. And quantum physics even comes to the same conclusion!
    Look at the zeitgeist movement website under philosophy! The only thing zeitgeist is against is the mass manipulation of the people.

    My local movement respects people who believe in god or something like it because we know us being all connected is true. To fight your neighbour is to fight yourself. The only thing zeitgeist is really against is other people taking control of your personal beliefs and exploiting it for monetary or sexual gain as explained below is the documentary `deliver us from evil`

    People in the movement have identified the problem of the monetary system and say hey we can and must do better or as a species we will not survive.

    How this will be done is illustrated in the 2004 documentary named `the take` and can be watched on this website.

    Those who have read the staments of the zeitgeist movement know that the movement is for the free choice of practising spirituality.

    The movement is against organized religion and stated early on.

    This means they do agree with Jesus but have identified the potential danger that arises when you raise people to trust in something which they cannot question or call to justice.
    My last example of why the organized church will be banned in the future is the documentary `deliver us from evil`. Watch it if you also think paedophiles in the church should be brought to justice and not be gives a get out of jail free card.

    Peace to you all and always remember that we are all one and the cancers of our society will fade away without effort.

    Peace Sander

  • question

    what's going to happen with us after we die?

  • http://www.zeitgeistmovement.nl Sander

    Thanks vlatko!

    Forgot about that!

    To question: Your physical body is just like a space suit for the soul.

    Science now comes to the conclusion DNA functions like an antenna.

    My personal opinion is that you probably go back the place where you picked your space suit. Assuming that you can pick it out yourself.

  • ben w

    what place? what 'you'?
    what is it that dies? the physical organism will end, one way or another, that is simple. but is there a you at all? or is 'I', the image, just another thought?
    do you see that there is only this stream of thought, and no I, we, they and you seperate from thought?
    so what happens when thought dies, EVERYTHING you know?
    try it, effortlessly. sit quietly, suspend thought and percieve without a 'you' percieveing - percieve everything perceptible at the same time. again, completely without effort, let it happen.
    that is death, life - a new dimension. you see, actually doing it now?

  • http://dangerismymiddlename.com Paul Danger Kile

    I am on the first 15 minutes. It looks accurate so far. This is basic macroeconomics.

    ANYONE can buy T-bills, not just the federal government.

    Also, if the money supply expands quicker than production, then we get inflation. In fact this expansion that the narrator describes is... OK he just explained that.

    No other criticisms yet. Good job so far.

  • DuQue

    Brilliant documentary, I'd recommend it to everyone.

  • Q&Aguy

    It still amazes me how much people try to quote the Bible as truth, even though it has dozens of variations and was cherry picked by leading church organizations for content. Dumb duh dumb dumb DUMBBBBBBBBBBBBBB

  • Ana

    O, yea... completely agree with the comment above. I mean some people do not even know basic history of their own country, but they know exactly what John, or James or whoever said in verse such and such... But the most tragic thing is that those people live by these bible quotes... They make their children live by them and then their grandchildren...

  • Not Buying It

    Don't believe any of it. It's a con for NWO enlasvement.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms karen

    we are a nation of followers, most people need a leader because they are afraid to think for themselves. I have never voted and I am 50 years old, I went to church until I was old enough to leave home. I have never believed in politics the candidates are all full of shit and the laws they make are to take away our freedom a little bit at a time. The church does the same thing it tells us how to live and if we dont we will go to hell. If we dont do what the goverment wants we will go to jail, its all a power trip. God is much more than anything the bible depicts, the ancients knew that. Freedom and a harmonic society is much more than you invision as well, its only the start. Human kind as a whole has an evolution to go through and to achive that is going to take more than just a realization that we need another system but that we are capable of creating our own reality that our thoughts are what control the world and the universe. Thought in its self has the power to create.

  • Vilya

    Why is it that people need a society, or a "movement" of some sort? Are beliefs some how ratified because someone else said it, to the point of make a community bound by it? Zeitgeist claims to be for "free thinkers", that it is based on science, that some how its philosophies are a new and modern form of thought. Thus the newly made "free thinkers" of this age who after shaking of the disillusionment of their previous illusion, probably a prophetic religion, are seeking something to fill the void and ... "poof" ... you can be a free thinker if you follow us because we got lots of scientific facts to strengthen your ideas that what you previously believed was wrong. Pretty much dong the same thing Scientology does, praying on the lack of the Abrahamic religions ability to be relevant to the modern world.
    I agree with many of the economic reform ideas, as well as many of the ideas for religious "reform", yes, it is a thought provoking film, but will I allow my self and my society to be ruled by a computer?. Lol I am a Computer Engineer that has done research on clustering and high performance networking, as well as done classes on A.I. structure. There is almost no way a computer run society would work as this movement presents.
    Before I continue, I hope the viewer realizes that all of the previous shows as well as this one, all lead up to the presentation of "the venus project" and to start accepting applications, only a VERY SMALL part of it was to actually enlighten people, though I respect the fact that they did.

    Think of this situation a building is burning, a single child is inside, a computer is asked, save the child or not. 2-3 valuable members of society (firemen) would have a 20% survival rate trying to save a single child that has as much probability of being a mooch on society as being a genius, thus the solution is, let the child die. This is a VERY simple example but the concept stands, we cannot be lead by a computer program, there is simply no humanity in it, and there is no ability as of yet to program compassion or even emotion. yes you can program an emotional response to a particular situation but not actual emotion, and as soon as you program emotion you will end up with the same problems as we have today just that robots will be a new "race"
    As well the simplest of flaws would be .. so who programs the computer..? .. what if someone hacks into the computer and changes something ... lol too many flaws.
    I am a bit vehement above in putting down the makers of Zeitgeist when I should not be, they have a good idea, but it is almost a cult like presentation with an obvious agenda, the ends of which if left to grow unhindered would end up in nothing dis-similar from where we are today, just with different names for each faction.
    As well, freedom of spiritual thought, we are all one, so so many more ideas that are presented as "new" ideas are all presented in Hindu philosophy, one of earths oldest recorded religions, lol even modern Hindus don't realize this because just like anything that is passed too long through the hands of man it gets warped, no matter how good and relevant the root was.
    What is the solution, honestly I do not have one as of yet, but I know that this one will not work.
    Think on this, in the early days of Christianity (well Judaism to be exact, but who were christians but Jews who thought Jesus was the "Christos" and not just a cool guy.), were they not the "free thinkers". The main religion was multiple gods all whom you had to pay tribute to (Egypt) the followers of Moses said noooooo we have 1 god who you don't have to waste livestock on you don't have to do so many silly rituals or anything that takes up your day, and you don't have to suffer under their rule, just follow us and you will be saved without too much trouble. Now 2000 years later what do we have ... lets not repeat previous mistakes.

    Lol well end up with a society that prays to a cluster of super computers named ENIAC squared.

  • Alex

    Zeitgeist: Addendum
    The part about the invisible money and the natural resources was indeed pretty good, but the rest is just a utopia. A paradise on earth type of concept. It can’t happen. Let me elaborate:
    1) To begin with, you would have to persuade the people to “persuade” their governments. Do you believe this is possible let’s say in the United States?? No. There are too many citizens who feel they will lose from such a concept if applied in their life time, and will stand against it. Many businesses will have to close, and many problems will arrive at society’s door. The corrupt government will of course take those citizens’ side!..
    2) You need literally hundreds of thousands of people to promote the idea to all the citizens of the U.S., I mean really brainwash them (!), and this, simultaneously through out the country, if you want “faster” results. These people would have to dedicate their life to the cause, literally dedicate their whole life! Actually to dedicate their life to something they will never see!! If you think about the parameters, this concept definitely cannot find application in 100 years!!! No way!! So there would have to be a second dedicated generation -just as zealous as the first- for the cause. (Yea right!…) Meanwhile, the concept itself will be spreading hate (that is, if it is “allowed” to exist, if you know what I mean…) toward the government and toward all religions, while feeding the people with delusions of a paradise they will never get to see. This sounds like occult thinking, that wants to lead a people… to where???
    3) But let’s just play along and say that this concept of paradise on earth is established to a very good degree and we are there to see it. What would the next day be like? (Just a quick view. Not in full detail, but still accurate enough to be very very close to the truth.)
    Mission accomplished! The next day:
    a) No work?? Who will organize, manage, the earth’s resources? Machines? Who will “handle” the machines/computers? PEOPLE. Would they have to “work”? Yes, they would, otherwise nothing can run as planned and no one can benefit.
    b) No money?? But in such a paradise-country, who will want to work without some form of money??? Why would they? Would they just volunteer? Volunteer their whole life??? If so, someone would have to previously train them to do such work, right? Would they volunteer too?? Their whole life? Why would they?? But let’s just say they did. What if both groups or a good percentage of them -for their own reasons- decide one day to get up and leave. What would happen?
    c) No laws?? (Talk about black humor!!) These two groups of people above (not to mentions all others [!!!!!!!!] who are needed for food supplies, clothing, etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.!!) would create an imbalance (chaos would be more accurate) if they quit their volunteer work. What would the consequences be? To what scale? How will society deal with this?? You need a contract and you need laws that will make sure the contract is upheld.
    d) No government?? Who will make the laws and actually be in a power-position to enforce them?? An elite group!! (Isn’t that swell!!) But wouldn’t they have to have some form of police that would do that? And wouldn’t they in turn need some form of protection (guns, sticks, etc)? (Again, who will make those weapons? He would have to work, wouldn’t he? Why would he? He is taught to hate weapons, laws, government, and on top of that, that he -like everybody else (yea right!)- doesn’t have to work!!! Besides there’s no money around, or form of money!
    e) What about the immigrants and refugees?? This concept has a theoretical chance (after maybe 100 years of doing everything “for the cause”) if applied to the whole world simultaneously, and this, with positive results everywhere (!), other wise, the immigrants arriving for a better life to such an Atlantis type of paradise (“New America”) from all over the world, would just bring all forms of chaos to a place, a place with no laws and police and government.
    f) What about religion? Are “the elite” going to brainwash all people telling them that all they need is themselves and maybe (…) society and that they should throw away the God-concept? (Does that remind you of something?) WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT?? Even if there wasn’t a God, the idea of having “a God”, is very helpful to so many people especially when they are faced with death. On the other hand, THE ELITE OF THE VENUS PROJECT DON’T KNOW WHAT’S ON THE OTHER SIDE, THAT IS, AFTER DEATH!! Wouldn’t they be lying to the people if they said they did know?? Wouldn’t they be depriving people of a possible beneficial hope that they will continue to live after death and maybe see their loved ones again?? Why would they do that? Also, how will they manage to hide from the people The Mind behind nature? They can’t hide Him forever. Design, laws, purpose, is all over the place! (YES, THEY ARE!) Some people will wake up to Him someday; how will the elite or/and society deal with them? Yes, the human brain can be brainwashed from a young age, but there is no guarantee it will stay that way forever! What if many of them start to speak out what they believe about a Creator God, and later on, start to meet, to worship their Creator God? Who will stop that religion from growing? How could they? There are no laws against it; everyone is free right? (My opinion is, that theoretically, RELIGION IS INEVITABLE.)

    I believe that the above is enough to show that other than what is said about the use of natural resources, the Zeitgeist-Venus Project idea is a utopia, one that can become a very deadly one!... One that -in reality- introduces “a new world order” as deceiving as all other ones! But enough said.
    You think about it, and be the judge.

  • Vilya

    Alex
    Though I disagree with the Venus Project, most of what you said are NOT good reasons for why it is bad ...

    I do love this though:

    You are a christian, or some sect of it.

    Your first 2 points ... read them closely, think closely on the phrases below.

    persuade the people to “persuade” their governments
    The corrupt government will of course take those citizens’ side!
    THE ENTIRE SECOND POINT but especially:
    The need of masses of people
    Brainwashing
    Dedicating their life to the cause
    Dedicating your life to somethign you will never see
    Breeding a second generation just as zealous as the first
    Concept spreading hate to everything other than itself
    delusions of a paradise you will never see

    You say this is an IMPOSSIBLE concept, it will never work. ... so tell me how does Christianity, especially Evangelicals and their ilk, work in America.
    The concept you spoke of above and so vehemently decry is a PROVEN working model most easily shown by The bible belt of America and its effects on America as a whole.

    "This sounds like occult thinking, that wants to lead a people… to where???"
    ... I agree

    Using your methodology, there is no reason why The Venus Project will not work nor is it any worse than whats going on today, and hey its a lot more relevant to today's world so in a way its better.

    Please do not say it does not match because you can see god (something you will never see) and heaven exists (delusions of a paradise) because there is no way you can prove the existence of either.

    Your further points till the last are not relevant since if you really listen to what they are saying, all of those points are accounted for.

    The last, the resurgence of religion, you believe that the ORIGINAL REASONS for god and a religious system in the first place will come up again and people with turn to HIM. Obviously in your context you mean a resurgence of Christianity. First let me say this, Christianity is one of the worlds youngest religions and with a new version of it popping up every couple days in a different community it is probably the youngest. Why would people instantly turn to Christianity, or some form of it, if there is, in your scenario, no record of previous religions for these brainwashed people. Now you could argue that you never said Christianity but when a christian writes HIM they can only mean one person. The likelihood would be the emergence of idolization and personal and natural gods.
    BUT
    That is making the assumption that the people of this society are as backward in knowledge, thinking, understanding of the world, understanding of the Universe as the people that created prophetic and Idolic religions in the first place.(No need to separate really since Idolic religions are all prophetic in a sense)
    Religion was born out of fear of the unknown, if there are no unknowns people will not seek supernatural answers such as "god", and even if there are a few unknowns, well educated, critical thinkers will not seek supernatural answers but simply say "I don't know yet".
    Basically in the system that The Venus Project preaches, religion as it is today is not likely to appear. Some form of religion maybe but DEFINITELY not the insanity we have today.(though that does not stop it from creating a different form of insanity)

    I thought it was funny that many of the things you state in your last point, are the same points I tell people to show them that religion was man made not some divine imposition.

    In any case I still disagree with the Zeitgeist concept and I do not think it will work (for the reasons I stated before) but I simply HAD to point out my observations above.

    Cheers!

  • Alex

    1) You cite some of my statements in order to show that I am wrong in believing that this Venus project can’t bring to pass it’s agenda, simply because -according to you- Christianity applies them today. Then you conclude:
    “You say this is an IMPOSSIBLE concept, it will never work. … so tell me how does Christianity, especially Evangelicals and their ilk, work in America.
    The concept you spoke of above and so vehemently decry is a PROVEN working model most easily shown by The bible belt of America and its effects on America as a whole.”
    Well, you’re wrong. The points I made were right after I said:
    “The part about the invisible money and the natural resources was indeed pretty good, but the rest is just a utopia. A paradise on earth type of concept. It can’t happen. Let me elaborate:…”
    So, can you see your mistake now?? I clearly said: “A paradise on earth type of concept. It can’t happen. Let me elaborate:…”
    The purpose of my points Vilya was to show that the Venus project paradise-on-earth can’t happen, and it can’t!!! Regarding Christianity there is no comparison with the points I made because:
    a) Christianity does not say no work, no money, no laws, no religion and all the other nonsense
    b) Today is Christianity is all over the world and is increasing, due to hundreds of years of professing faith. If Christianity started let’s say about 30 years ago, it would definitely need hundreds of years to get to where it is today.
    c) You write: “The concept you spoke of above and so vehemently decry is a PROVEN working model most easily shown by The bible belt of America and its effects on America as a whole.”
    If I understood you correctly you say that my statements -which you cite- is “a Proven working model”. I never said it can’t be, but that it can’t bring the outcome the Venus project “desires/wishes” in less than 100 years! But, keeping the above in mind, let’s see my statements which you selected and their the form of their connection to Christianity (my short comments will follow in parenthesis):
    “persuade the people to “persuade” their governments”
    (Nothing wrong with it.)

    “The corrupt government will of course take those citizens’ side!”
    (The corrupt government will not take the side of Christianity! Unless of course it can take advantage of them, their naivety. This is not Biblical Christianity’s fault. On the other hand, correctly, Christianity sometimes tries to affect the governments choices! Why not? Why can everybody else be free to do it, and Christianity shouldn’t?? Especially when the aims are against abortion, homosexuality [don’t care if you agree with me or not], various fundings for the benefit of the citizens, etc. Whether you agree with those aims or not, is besides the point. The point is, influencing the government for the better. Anybody can go for it! This is a part of democracy.)

    “The need of masses of people”
    (Nothing wrong with it, since the more Christians there are, the more the gospel of Christ will spread. Who believes he has the truth that can benefit, and does not want masses to carry it all over the world?)

    “Brainwashing”
    (Christians do not brainwash. If they need to do so, they are liars with an agenda and not Christians. Contrary to what propaganda says, “brainwashing” in itself is not wrong, the purpose of it though is what matters. I have no problem being brainwashed, as long as the person who is doing it to me, washes my brain…. with the truth! You think you’re not brainwashed?? All people are on various issues. The question is which ones reflect the truth.)

    “Dedicating their life to the cause”
    (Many people live for causes.)

    “Dedicating your life to somethign you will never see”
    (Christians see results of their faith in their life, just as those just converted see the difference in their life, something that I hope will become your experience as well.)

    “Breeding a second generation just as zealous as the first”
    (Good for them!)

    “Concept spreading hate to everything other than itself”
    (Biblical Christianity never does this!)

    “delusions of a paradise you will never see”
    (Christians have no such delusions. They experience The God of that paradise, Who promises it to those who repent and believe. Unless you can prove otherwise you cannot in sincerity speak of a Christian delusion.)

    d) Christianity in the States grew because of its message and its results (!!). It had no real enemies (in size at least), as the Venus project would!!!!!!!!!! So again there is no comparison.

    2) “Using your methodology, there is no reason why The Venus Project will not work nor is it any worse than whats going on today, and hey its a lot more relevant to today’s world so in a way its better.”
    Really?? No work, no money, no religion, no laws, is “a lot more relevant to today’s world”, the Christianity???? Are you listening to your self?

    3) “Please do not say it does not match because you can see god (something you will never see) and heaven exists (delusions of a paradise) because there is no way you can prove the existence of either.”
    What a silly argument filled with ignorance and arrogance. There is much evidence pointing to a Creator, as well as to the fact that He is The God of The Bible. (I have more detailed comments on this as you know in Zeitgeist Refuted.)

    4) “Your further points till the last are not relevant since if you really listen to what they are saying, all of those points are accounted for.”
    I did listen, and you are definitely wrong, they are not accounted for.

    5) “The last, the resurgence of religion, you believe that the ORIGINAL REASONS for god and a religious system in the first place will come up again and people with turn to HIM. Obviously in your context you mean a resurgence of Christianity.”
    Wrong. I was talking about any worship of a Creator God. Christianity, based on the Venus project came to life, would not be around!! People would then not know much about Him (hypothetically speaking).

    6) “First let me say this, Christianity is one of the worlds youngest religions and with a new version of it popping up every couple days in a different community it is probably the youngest. Why would people instantly turn to Christianity, or some form of it, if there is, in your scenario, no record of previous religions for these brainwashed people. Now you could argue that you never said Christianity but when a christian writes HIM they can only mean one person.”
    Wrong. When I said “Him”, I said it because I know He is The God they will “find” in nature. There is only One God. They though, will not know this, they will know anything about Christianity. But He I will be the same. He doesn’t change.

    7) “The likelihood would be the emergence of idolization and personal and natural gods.
    BUT
    That is making the assumption that the people of this society are as backward in knowledge, thinking, understanding of the world, understanding of the Universe as the people that created prophetic and Idolic religions in the first place.(No need to separate really since Idolic religions are all prophetic in a sense)”
    a) When the Venus project accomplished its vision, there will -most likely- not be any knowledge of the past regarding religions (if I have the theory down correctly).
    b) Perceiving a designed creation and then “believing” in A Creator, is not “backward thinking”. (Now, I even feel sorry for you. Talk about being brainwashed.) a)I mean, where’s your logic Vilya? Because you don’t believe in a god, this makes you are a “forward thinker” and all others “backward thinkers”?? Oh pleeeaaaasssseeee! This is a ridiculous joke to say, even for an atheist.

    8) “Religion was born out of fear of the unknown,”
    This is a sorry generalization. -The idea that God exists came from the first people that worshiped Him. He created them and then revealed Himself to them. They did not make Him up out of fear for the unknown. After many centuries religions were made according to a small societies needs, BUT, the idea of A God Creator, was orally passed down to all people, in all societies, and was the basis/core of their religions.

    9) “if there are no unknowns people will not seek supernatural answers such as “god”, and even if there are a few unknowns, well educated, critical thinkers will not seek supernatural answers but simply say “I don’t know yet”.
    How can you say such things?? (I have the answer.) You mean, you don’t see any indications pointing to a creator anywhere??????????????????????????????? Or are you just waiting for your atheist priests to give you some hope that those indications are just deceptions?? (Why am I even replying to comments like this??)

    10) “Basically in the system that The Venus Project preaches, religion as it is today is not likely to appear.”
    Finally.
    11) “Some form of religion maybe but DEFINITELY not the insanity we have today.(though that does not stop it from creating a different form of insanity)”
    a) What do you mean some form of religion?? That’s what I said. Does this religion include a Creator? Does it “answer” question about the after-life?
    b) Hypothetically speaking, whether there are insane claims in a religion or not, is not the first thing to think about. The question is, is whether its claims are true….! If they are, its “insanity” is besides the point!
    c) THERE ARE NO INSANE CLAIMS IN CHRISTIANITY.

    12) “I thought it was funny that many of the things you state in your last point, are the same points I tell people to show them that religion was man made not some divine imposition.”
    Man made huh? Well, all atheists are ignorant of the facts, so why should you be any different? See how man made this is (a small prophecy on Tyre):
    “TYRE
    Ezekiel 26:3-5, 7, 12, 14, 16 (written 590 B.C.) reads:
    Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up. And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. It shall be a place for the spreading of nets ... For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar King of Babylon... and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water... And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the Lord have spoken it, saith the Lord God ... Then all the princes of the sea shall come down from their thrones, and lay away their robes, and put off their broidered garments: they shall clothe themselves with trembling.
    This prophecy predicts the destruction of Tyre and states seven definite things which shall take place:
    1. Nebuchadnezzar shall take the city of Tyre.
    2. Other nations are to participate in the fulfillment of the prophecy. (Fig 7)
    3. The city is to be made flat like the top of a rock.
    4. It is to become a place for spreading of nets.
    5. Its stones and timber are to be laid in the sea.
    6. Other cities are to fear greatly at the fall of Tyre.
    7. The old city of Tyre shall never be rebuilt.
    Tyre was a city on the northern coast of Palestine inhabited b the Phoenicians, a strong maritime people, greatly feared by their enemies. (The king of Tyre supplied timbers of Solomon in the building of the temple.) In 586 B.C., Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, laid siege to the city of Tyre. The siege lasted for thirteen years; and when Nebuchadnezzar took the city in 573 B.C., he found that the Phoenicians had moved everything of value to an island about one-half mile off the coast. Though the city was taken, Nebuchadnezzar profited nothing, and the Phoenicians were not conquered. Nebuchadnezzar could not pursue them to their island position, so he returned to Babylon. Thus the first item of the prophecy was fulfilled: (1) Nebuchadnezzar shall take the city of Tyre.
    For 241 years the mainland city of Tyre remained very much as Nebuchadnezzar left it. Later, Alexander city Great started his great conquest. His field of campaign lay to the east, but he feared that the fleet of Tyre might be used against his homeland, so he moved south to take the city of Tyre. In 332 B.C., Alexander reached Tyre, but he was unable to take the city at once. So he captured other coastal cities and took over their fleets, but with these combined fleets he was still unable to take Tyre. Alexander finally built a causeway from the mainland to the island. In building the causeway he used all the building materials of old Tyre, and that was not enough. He scraped up all of the soil in and around the old city and with it completed the causeway. After seven months, by a combined attack of land forces marching in over the causeway, and the fleets of conquered cities, he took Tyre. Thus items 2,3, and 5 of the prophecy were fulfilled: (2) Other nations are to participate in the fulfillment of the prophecy. (3) The city is to be made flat like the top of a rock. (5) Its stones and timber are to be laid in the sea.
    (There was a picture here) Fig. 6. Phoenician fortifications and ancient causeway. Tyre, Lebanon. Courtesy of Moody Institute of Science

    Other neighboring cities were so frightened by the conquest of Tyre that they opened their gates to Alexander without opposition and fulfilled another item: (6) Other cities are to fear greatly at the fall of Tyre.

    Today visitors at the old city of Tyre find it is a very popular place for fisherman; they are spreading their nets on this very spot. Thus prediction 4 has been completely fulfilled: (4) It is to become a place for spreading of nets.

    The great freshwater springs of Raselain are at the site of the mainland city of Tyre, and no doubt supplied the city with an abundance of fresh water. These springs are still there and still flow, but their water runs into the sea. The flow of these springs was measured by an engineer, and found to be about 10,000,000 gallons daily. It is still an excellent site for a city and would have free water enough for a large modern city, yet it has never been rebuilt. Thus item 7 of the prophecy has stood true for more than 2,500 years: (7)
    The old city of Tyre shall never be rebuilt.

    This prophecy by Ezekiel has been fulfilled to the last item. Let us try to evaluate the evidence of inspiration as supplied by the fulfillment of this prophecy.

    History shows that while many of the cities in the vicinity of Tyre were often captured and recaptured by various forces, Tyre usually withstood these attacks and remained a free city. Tyre and Babylon represented two very different military powers--Tyre, naval, and Babylon, a land force. Each had left the other strictly alone. My groups of college students were asked to imagine that Ezekiel was writing from his own human knowledge, and then to give an estimate of the following:

    1. Ezekiel had one chance in how many of knowing, or being able to predict, that Nebuchadnezzar would take the city of Tyre? Since Nebuchadnezzar was conquering many cities, and since Tyre was besieged four years after the prophecy was made, it must have been a reasonable thing to predict.

    Nebuchadnezzar might have tried to take Tyre and failed, or he might have succeeded, or he might have never tried. An estimate of one in three was chosen.

    2. What chance did Ezekiel have of knowing that Nebuchadnezzar would, in his conquering of Tyre, not completely fulfill the prophecy of destruction, but other nations would later come in and complete the fulfillment? The indications in the time of Ezekiel certainly were that when Nebuchadnezzar took a city he was quite capable of completing the destruction himself, so the estimate was placed at one in five.

    3. What chance did Ezekiel have of knowing that Tyre would be made flat like the top of a rock, after it was conquered? How many cities have been made flat like the top of a rock after being conquered? The sites of nearly all ancient cities are marked by mounds of accumulated debris. I do not know of any other city where the ruins have been so completely cleared away, so the estimate of one in five hundred was chosen.

    4. What chance did Ezekiel have of knowing that after the city had been completely cleared away it would become a popular place for fishermen? There is really no basis on which to make an estimate. However, taking this site merely as a little stretch of coast, and considering all sections of coasts that size, an estimate of one in ten was chosen.

    5. What chance did Ezekiel have of knowing that when Tyre was made flat its building material, and even its dust, was was to be laid in the sea? Since the site was to be cleared, the debris had to be disposed of, but it would have been far more likely to have used this material in constructing the buildings of nearby cities, so the estimate was given as one in ten.

    6. What chance was there of other cities opening their gates to the conqueror of Tyre without resistance? The estimate was given as one in five.

    7. What was the chance that Tyre, after being made flat, should never be rebuilt? Nearly all old cities which had great natural advantages were at some time rebuilt. Tyre is in an excellent location and has an abundant supply of fresh water, so valuable in this land. The estimate chosen for this part of the prophecy was one in twenty.

    Having been given these estimates by my students for the probability of the fulfillment of each part of the prophecy, we shall get an estimate of the probability of the fulfillment of the whole prophecy by multiplying all of the estimates together. The chance then of Ezekiel writing this prophecy from his own knowledge, and having it all come true, is 1 in 3 x 5 x 500 x 10 x 10 x 5 x 20. This is 1 in 75,000,000. This can be abbreviated as 1 in 7.5 x 107. The exponent 7 indicates the number of ciphers (digits - or zeros) that are to follow the 7.5.

    If Ezekiel had looked at Tyre in his day and had made these seven predictions in human wisddom, these estimates mean that there would have been only one chance in 75,000,000 of their all coming true. They all came true in the minutest detail.”

    The above Vilya is just one of the many (!!) prophecies that point to the reality of The God of The Bible who foretells the future through His prophet. There are other reasons the Bible is considered inspired by God,… but who cares, right? Unfortunately, this is the problem. If Vilya, you don’t see the above as an indication to a) A God, and to b) the God of The Bible, then there is no point in replying to any of your comments… you’re just another Taliban fanatic. (I said “if”.)
    13) “In any case I still disagree with the Zeitgeist concept and I do not think it will work (for the reasons I stated before) but I simply HAD to point out my observations above.”
    a) Guess what? You didn’t give any reason at all why you think it wouldn’t work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    b) Yes…. you “HAD to”…. (that is the problem)
    May God awaken you!

    Ps. Take it easy Vilya. Don’t just react as I see you do (here and elsewhere), but give time and research, before taking an absolute position. You are digging your own grave, that is, you are talking your way into a trap… that you will not be able to escape… and the truth will pass you by and at the end you will suffer the eternal consequences. (You can laugh all you want, but know that it’s at your expense.)

  • Alex

    The above, is first of all, for Vilya. Sorry, I forgot to mention it.

  • Christer

    im yet to watch this, but i cant wait ! i cant wait for people to take a step back from their lives and realize what a joke it all is. 19000 animals die every second needlessly so we can fuel our consumerist self obsessed shallow lives. tens of thousands of debt-slave workers die every day to make our nike trainers. lets stop trying to justify our abritrary systems with big words and look at the big picture! let us stop killing so many innocents.
    im loving zeitgeist and the venus project , and earthlings ( watch it ). lets just be animals again . enough of this fairytale bull.

  • James

    I have to say many things that should open eyes of the many people that I saw respond to this video. I for one have not seen it because most videos on religion are no longer God based but religion based. It saddens me to see all these people, here and in everyday life, bash God as if God is the one that created Religion. Religion is man-made. Therefore religion is always going to be tainted by the sick hand of Lucifer. God of course is the creator of all, from beginning to end, earth, and the massive universe above. If one would just read the prophecies in the Old and New Testaments that have been and still are being fulfilled, one’s eyes would truly be opened to what is truly going on. Mass society manipulation by a electronic box in our living room called a T.V. This invention is informative on some things that are good but its the media that spins it bad and hypnotizes America into what I like to call "county fairgrounds entertainment." Only 4 corporations own all channels on your T.V. You don't think that the 2 people that own those aren't rich and want to manipulate and control you so they feel powerful? One World Government, human chip implants (Mark Of the Beast), One World Currency, World Wars, 10 horns of the beast in Revelation (G8 is holding a conference in Italy as I am typing this message. Who knows when we will get to G10?). We are headed down the path to Christ’s return which is very, very soon. Take the time to study the Bible alone without anyone BUT God guiding you. Pray for the guidance and I guarantee you will receive it. Ask and you shall receive never had the meaning of asking for personal pleasures. It meant to ask God for help with guidance, patience, kind actions, becoming a better you spiritually, etc. You don't get to heaven by good works. Christ already paid the price for you so that you can be accepted into heaven. All you have to do is have faith that God has been there and still is. Accept the Gospel (good news) of the debt that was paid and that Christ is the one who took that debt off of your shoulders. Once you have faith and received the gospel, then the good works come naturally. That's where Catholicism had it wrong. They believe the exact opposite. WRONG. It even states in the Bible that the world religions will be false at the end times. The ones that will truly understand that are the ones that recognize that world religion is man-made and flawed. As I said earlier READ THE BIBLE. Pray to God for guidance and your eyes will be open to the greatness of Gods kingdom. Start with the book of John. Look at what Jesus does, as well as look at what Jesus doesn't do. I am doing a study in the Bible and I found out last week that in the Bible there are more verses that have to do with money than heaven and hell combined! The reason behind that is because God knows how crucial money is to our lives. Money determines the true nature of one’s heart. Martin Luther said it best, "If silver and gold are things evil in themselves, then those who keep away from them deserve to be praised. But if they are good creatures of God, which we can use both for the needs of our neighbor and for the glory of God, is not a person silly, yes, even unthankful to God, if he refrains from them as if they were evil?" Money is a gift from God. When you hear those weird people on the church networks on T.V. preaching the "Health and wealth gospel", you should know that their intentions are evil. Just because you give them 100 bucks does NOT mean you will get back tenfold of what you deserve. Money when given to us is to be used for the good of mankind. I watched one of the Harry Potter films the other day and one of the questions that good ole Harry asked was "Is magic evil?" The response was no. Magic is neither good nor evil; it is the user that determines the evil or good in which the magic is used. Same goes with money. The 10 fold returns that one will get might not be in the same form that you gave. Remember this though: one should never give money expecting anything in return or even bragging to anyone that he/she even gave money out. Then it is twisting the whole reason of giving back into a form of self satisfaction and away from Gods light. I have only been studying the Bible fervently for the past month because I too was a skeptic of religion. Once I realized that my walk with God is with God and I alone then I realized the difference between man-made religion and God. Man made religion is just like the government...twisted and truly dead because of greed, self satisfaction, and power. God truly just wants a relationship with his people once more. Like in the old days called THE BEGINNING. The end is near and all the rulers of the world know it, that is why the truth is getting covered up more and more as each day goes by. I plead with everyone to break the dust seal of your Bible and get back the relationship you deserve to have with your creator. Remember that Emmanuel means GOD WITH US. Just where he has always been but we are too blind to see it. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

  • DancingSpiderman

    Directed at Vilya's comment: You must have been commenting on a completely different movie other than Zeitgeist Addendum. Maybe you hallucinated some cool but apocalyptic sci-fi movie plot whilst writing your comments above. I dunno.

    NOWHERE in this movie was the concept even mentioned of a utopia society where a computer makes decisions for people. It's much better to make comments from the Point Of View of what the movie's contents are, instead of from incorrect extrapolations of what YOU think the movie's concepts meant to convey.

    Overall, the collective society's thoughts and feelings based on each individual's erroneous Points Of View are why the World's people are in such a bad state of existence. THAT much is very obvious to me. I don't even have to be emerging from a cave to be able to come to that sad conclusion.

  • octopussy

    oh and james - money is evil in that it disguises the true worth of things and divides the world into the have and have nots, one dollar might buy you a bag of candy in the us, one dollar in thailand will feed you for a few days, if money is not evil explain the inequality in this, did you even watch the movie? the desire for profit rewards the greedy (greed being one of your seven deadly sinny sin sins) and eats away the worth of money spent for altruistic reasons, it is no different from the feudal systems of yesteryear, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, same as it ever was!
    the illusion of philanthropy allowing this to continue inevitably- the whims of the super rich decides who gets help. sorry i just read the bottom of your post and your madness is evident, gods light etc. sorry feel free to ignore the logic in my argument.
    it is interesting to note that this "money isnt evil" adage is only ever stated by those with enough to get by, try selling that line to someone in an indian slum who gets 30p a week for melting down your old computers for the metals, try telling him/her that nonsense.

  • octopussy

    if we dont change and recognise that the way we live now will eventually destroy the way of life we have become accustomed to then its anarchy time anyway, capitalism got us here but our entire concept of society needs to evolve and we need to stop breeding like a virus and live like mammals again. we already live a resource based existence its just not evident to us because we live like vampires off the back of those without much resource- our economy profligates this situation, whilst the majority of the world lives with just enough resources to survive whilst they solder together your new ipods.
    the message of this film can be summed up by the famous cree indian prophecy which gets truer by the minute and more inevitable as i type it:
    only after the last tree has been cut down,
    only after the last river has been poisoned,
    only when the last fish has been caught,
    only then will you find that money cannot be eaten.

  • Vilya

    Hurm .. James...you are a good reason why truly rational and educated people are leaving the church. I am being specific to the Christian institution right now since James is speaking from that corner.

    There only a few people commenting that actually bash god, even Zeitgeist does not actually say there is no god, we are simply protesting modern religions mythologizing the god concept and using it to control the mass. Exactly as you say "as if God is the one that created Religion. Religion is man-made."
    SO true ... but wait...
    "Therefore religion is always going to be tainted by the sick hand of Lucifer"
    ...
    You do realize that the entirety of the concept of Lucifer comes from the same man made religion that you just decried?
    Why oh why do sooooo many (and I would say brainwashed zealots but ill try to be civil) people not see their own flawed logic. How can you say god is good but religion is bad then scream "READ THE BIBLE".
    THE BIBLE IS RELIGION IT IS NOT GOD!!!!
    It was a book written by man edited by man and published by man ... NOT GOD.
    Even if you say that the people that originally wrote the bible were inspired by god .. there is no way you can try to prove that every single person that has changed, transcribed, translated, edited and published the Bible was Divinely inspired.
    The Bible in itself IS the source of the Religion known as Christianity, not God, so how can you speak out on "religion" and then purport reading the Bible?

    As well again, Alex (above) did the same thing, why is it that so many within prophetic religions believe that theirs is the only religion that could possibly be right.
    You say God is good religion is bad but if that is so then why must this god be the God described in the Bible. By the mere fact of assuming that God is the Christian god, is that not being religious.
    Besides which there are so many other religions, some surviving today, some that the Islamics and Christians killed off, why were they wrong and Christians (in your view) right, especially since Christianity had a large part to play in the mass slaughter of people that do not agree with them.
    You say Catholicism had it wrong ... but Constantine and his senate edited and published a definitive Bible to help him control the people of his empire, and this Bible is the very one you read today (of course with many "ambitious additions to create more control in different times).... you are actually seeing deeper than what was intended ... Just as you say Money is mentioned more times than heaven and hell, so, what is the most prominent thought on any Politicians mind?
    But in the end, even though you are a zealot, in the sense that you believe without any reason besides probably brainwashing, at least you see the flaws in your own religion. Your would be a great mind if you opened your mind and saw the flaws in your own rational.

  • shimon

    i beliv u
    and i'm not alone
    unite us!!!

  • Vilya

    Dear Alex

    According to one of my friends, it is impossible to speak rationally to to a zealot, because even if you knock down one of their ideas they can make up almost anything to fill its place. The sheer fact that you automatically assume I am an atheist, and insult me to that basis, simply because I do not believe in the Christian concept of god is laughable. I, as I said in another comment, do believe in the concept of a consciousness greater than myself, which makes me .. yup .. not an atheist. Little bit of an agnostic maybe but since I still label myself under a mainstream religion i cannot really make that claim but definitely I am not an atheist.

    First of all I do not think you understood what I said at the start, because you disagreed with me agreeing with you.
    I agreed with you saying that the utopia concept would not work. What I disagreed with was the idea that it would not work because of the points you put forward, since the very same point you put forward, for the most part, are the reasons why Christianity has succeeded.
    So follow me... you said something will not succeed using reasons that MATCH the reasons that one would state for something else that HAS already succeeded.
    Which obviously makes no sense.
    (On a side note ... my bad but I think I put my initial comment under the wrong Zeitgeist lol I saw them outside of this website and I think the one where they alluded to decision making computers was not this one ... yeaa woops but im human sry)
    Either way ... in your initial point by point break down you rather zealously prove my point. I do not think you will ever see what I mean due to religious fervor clouding your judgment ... but .. What I had attempted to do was show you that all those point that you initially said would cause the Venus project to fail because it would take too long to happen or it was impossible to happen, all of those points,(the ones i mentioned) were the reasons that Christianity had succeeded, and you agreed with me and even defended me by point by point accepting that Christianity does this and defending their right to do it. Which was quite nice of you.
    Sigh I am not going to go through every point but here are a few pointers.

    -If Christianity started 30 years ago, it would not survive.(as in if some people 30 years ago tried to lay the stories of the bible down as facts, especially the old testaments, as things that that happened to them, other people would laugh them off their soap box, maybe not you because you would never admit it but most of the world 30 years ago would fall down laughing if someone told them ... so I went up a hill and a burning bush talked to me and said he was the voice of god)
    -Christianity is actually on the decline, Islam is on the rise, sadly.
    -It is ethically wrong to force a political opinion on someone else simply because their faith in God makes them stupidly put faith in the leaders of the institution they follow.
    These "Leaders" are people that can get ordained at 10 years old, or like a random acquaintance of mine who can barely write, is a chain smoker and an alcoholic and is about to be ordained, are these the folks we want pushing political opinions on the masses.
    -You will find most knowledgeable people do not try to force their truth on other but try to make other find their own path.
    -I agree we are all Brainwashed to some extent, I honestly have no words for the group of comments concerning the masses and brainwashing. Any rational person reading what you put forward would automatically discredit you as any form of intelligent individual. Not saying you are not, simply stating what most people would think.
    You basically AGREE to brainwashing people. So it is ok from birth to force people into becoming nothing more than yes men to whoever is donating money to the church next. (as well you realize that your statement puts everything you say in question since it is not your opinion but the opinion of whoever your learning from)
    Let me ask you this though, if the Bible is the Truth, would it not be so obviously correct so clearly right that if you taught a child all the different ideas concerning ... say Creationism wouldn't they, as they develop say yup definitely, I have all these ideas but the Bible is definitely correct. If this is true why is it that strong christian families do not want their children taught anything but creationism and instead fill their heads with one sided half truths to make them believe. Even making separate schools so that their children only learn what they want them to learn.(I actually think this is a form of abuse but that's another topic)
    Again I say Who are you to decide what is the Truth? and YOU did decide the Bible is the truth and not God, unless of course you are one of the brainwashed masses that had the decision made for them.
    I can go on and on on this because This very simple point of people believing brainwashing of children is right, just because ... of course you are teaching them the truth ... is the MAIN reason why there is so much conflict and war in the world.
    -Just the sheer fact of you insulting me for my supposed beliefs of atheism shows Christianity spreading hate to anything outside of itself. Maybe you missed the documentary Jesus Camp with its militant ideas, or the Preacher closest to Bush persuading his congregation that War is right, we have to kill off the Islamics because they do not follow the Truth like we do, or the Inquisition, or the Crusades, or the killing off of most of the worlds Nature religions, the kelts, the Caribs and Arawaks, the Inkans Mayans, Aztecs...
    -The delusion I spoke of was the concept of Heaven, its like training a puppy "sit puppy sit" the puppy gets a cookie if he sits a little tap if he doesn't, the puppy looks repentant you go again, You tell people "Do as I say" they do you say they go to heaven they don't you say they go to hell, they repent you start all over.
    -Fanatical Christians like yourself, on the whole are a rather hypocritical lot when it comes to Science. You pick and chose what you want to say is right. The same scientific method that was used to figure out the principles of medicine, and physics to make electricity and cars work, was used to figure out evolution and the actual dating of when the Bible was written and other concepts like global warming and so on but yet while you all do not say the car is the devils work, some how evolution is the devils work and cannot be right. You say I am brainwashed and I am just waiting for an "atheist priest" (whatever that is) to tell me what to think next, but all of my concepts come from the scientific process, observation, inference, hypothesis, testing, conclusion (of course you need more than one source of information as well, since people being people are biased)... this is NOT brainwashing ... this is thought ... and when I am wrong I admit it, of course I will not consider I am wrong without proper proof.
    On the other hand brainwashed folks do not need proof, or even observable facts, you simply need a preacher to tell you the "truth".
    It is because of these ideas that The Venus project is more relevant to the modern world. Ever single catastrophe we face today shows that man does not have dominion over the earth, and it is this VERY form of thinking that has brought us to many of the troubles we have today. Thus many of the paths the Venus Project purports are actually quite good and very relevant to today's world much more so than the Bible which still thinks were are the center of the Universe.
    -Ignorance and arrogance to say that you cannot see god and their is no heaven, I thought it was humble of me to say that I as a human being would never be able to fully see god since he is far greater than I can even imagine. As well I thought I was intelligent of me to disbelieve things that were told to me without any proof. It seems any belief that is not a Christian belief is ignorant and arrogant ... wait isen't this spreading hate to anything non christian ..
    There are NO and I mean ZERO so called proofs for Intelligent design that cannot be explained by science and Evolution ... please tell me some.
    Lets not get into disproving the Bible since just as many preachers that force every detail of the Bible on their congregation say, This is the word of god every word in it is the Truth, meaning disprove one thing and the entire thing is false. In a non prophetic sense obviously this is not true, but since it is the "Word of God" then yes if one thing is false then it obviously not the word of God.
    -For the 2 where we agree no problem .. I did make the assumption that you were speaking of a christian god since you were not ... good
    -Though I did not initially say this like you thought, believing in creationism is actually pretty backward, believing in a greater consciousness, well I do, so i don't think its backward... either way I am not an atheist, and decidedly not brain washed since my conclusions on evolution and creationism are purely scientific, after studying both (and other) stories on the topic I agreed with the most logical one. Anyone who believes in creationism as FACT and not a possibility has to be brainwashed since there are simply no real facts to support it and I have actually researched this extensively. Oddly to me Evolution is about 98% probable to be correct but I will never ignore someone with another valid idea. Oh as well I do not think atheists are forward thinkers, since their concept comes in an absolute form and just as their is no scientific proof of God, is is no scientific proof disproving him so ... atheism in itself is rather closed minded. and again when I say God I mean God .. not what Christians arrogantly decided was God.
    -I should apologize for my statement "Religion came out of the fear of the unknown", I should have said the Idea of "God", something greater and more powerful than humans grew out of the fear of the unknown, out of this came religion. There are many reasons why people created religions, lets not go into it now. I will refrain as well from breaking down your comment that comes from a Creationist point of view.
    -Sigh again with the hate with no basis, yes there are no creationist ideas that cannot be refuted, please tell me some, there is no such thing as an atheist "priest", I am not atheist, and there is no "hope for deceptions", there is either proof towards a fact or nothing, in science.
    -With the insanity comment, your first two points I agree with, though I probably have a different context in mind, and with your last ... Talking to a burning bush, everything just popped up in 7 days, earth being the center of the universe, woman being created from a guys rib, soo soo many more.
    - Again sigh hateful tone, but isn't it ignorant of you to say atheists are all ignorant of the facts. You realize that practically every modern convenience you use including the internet and the computer your typing on were all created by people who are statistically 98% agnostic, atheist or simply don't care ... and these are the guys your calling ignorant of the facts. People that if they did not see the whole idea of what a fact is as distinct from a belief, we would all either still be in the stone age or dead from faulty technology.
    As well arrogant of you to say that you know the one and only truth ? Even with no solid scientific basis behind that "truth", as well this truth being brainwashed into you and you not finding it yourself.
    -The whole prophesy thing, sigh I do not want to discredit the time you took to put that down for me but If a true prophesy means that a book comes from god then Nostradamus would be considered godly, and quite a few side road psychics that girls tend to go crazy over.
    Instead of jumping to conclusions that this was a miraculous prophesy by Ezekiel, think on this.
    Ezekiel was a leader of his people, and an intelligent guy, who was far more informed of the activities outside of his own country than most. He understood the political climate and knew strategically what a conquering army would want to do, so he put down this "prophesy" so that people were amazed when they occurred. If a political commentator said four years before the Iraq war that "There will be a war in Iraq, and blah blah..." does that make him a prophet, no simply someone who read the politics correct.
    Of course I have no proof of this I am just showing you one of many simple common sense approaches to this, there probably already is someone with proof to throw off this "prophesy"
    As well you are forgetting that in the end Constantine would not have allowed any "prophesies" in his book that were not already shown to be true or too far off in time for it to affect him.
    On a side note what if some one invested in that area and built up a city, think of how fast Dubai sprung up, it really is not that far fetched an idea, does that mean that the entirety of the Bible is wrong, since I don't see Ezekiel saying "nothing will be built till 2019" and you are saying that this being a true prophesy is proof that the Bible is the Truth, so doesn't that mean If a city is built there it is no longer the Truth?
    -Lets leave the next point till last.
    -I also disagree with the Zeitgeist concept, though many of its ideas make sense it it not yet a fully functional Idea.
    -My ideas against The Venus Project were placed in my comments way before your initial comment that I replied to, sadly It was placed under the wrong film ... the presentation of the computer decision making Idea was presented in another one of the Zeitgeist films. Again my apologies but I watched all of the Zeitgeist films on another forum.
    -The "had to" thing, that says "May god awaken in you" ... as I said I am not an atheist.

    -"you’re just another Taliban fanatic."

    wow ... so basically .. I'm either a Christian or a fanatical Muslim ...
    So there are no other religions in the world.
    Even though people have slaughtered million in the name of the Bible, if you don't follow that same Bible, your morals and the value you place on human life is no more than someone who would blow himself up for the very minor reason of causing havoc.

    This is probably why my friend told me not to bother answering ... you question my logic on so many things, you say I am brainwashed, you call me arrogant and ignorant, (though I concede the arrogance I do tend to be sometimes) but without actually examining my point of view you use cyclic logic, unproven Ideas, insults and hate all arrogantly put, to put down my ideas and then pompously say that I must do more research before writing.

    Let's stop this, you are not the type to listen and while you may have new "proofs" like the Ezekiel prophesy that I have not seen before, simple logic and research would show me the flaws within it.
    I do not believe the Bible in itself is bad but I do think that more bad than good has been done in its name.
    The simple fact of you marking me as a Taliban, and lack of knowledge surrounding the fact that other religions exist is an evil in itself. Because according to you, even though I do so much volunteer work (too much to put here and I don't want to sound like i'm boasting), donate money to good causes, never stolen anything, never hurt anyone, respect women and believe they are just as good as men, simply because I do not believe in the Bible, I am a fanatical Taliban and well what better to do with a Fanatical Taliban than kill him. Oddly I am not and have never been Muslim.

  • Alex

    For Vilya (3rd and last part)
    37) “The whole prophesy thing, sigh I do not want to discredit the time you took to put that down for me but If a true prophesy means that a book comes from god…”
    ---a) The Book/s came from people who were inspired to write His will for us. It didn’t fall out of the sky (I know you agree). b) Prophecy is a great indication/evidence of His existence and foreknowledge.

    38) “…then Nostradamus would be considered godly, and quite a few side road psychics that girls tend to go crazy over.”
    ---a) Nostradamus?? I have read his “prophecies” and they are a mess! We don’t know for sure if anything he said came to be true. This is speculation by those who are “tickled” by the mysterious. They have nothing to do with the clarity of Bible prophecy (see the link I just gave you for evidence).
    b) If one accepts there are real psychics, which I believe there are (maybe two hands full in all the world), this has nothing to do with brain ability “tuned in” to the future somehow, but with divine revelation. This is not my opinion. The prophets themselves say that they prophesied according to what God gave them, and guess what? Many prophets were from different eras and places, and never met each other, YET, they all speak of the same God, Who gave them their prophecies!

    39) “Instead of jumping to conclusions that this was a miraculous prophesy by Ezekiel, think on this”
    ---a) No. Can’t you see that you are the one who is about to jump into conclusions? Why not accept the narration in the context it is written in and what the prophet himself says? Why do you start of on speculation like: “The God of The Bible doesn’t exist”, and then try to find another “solution”?? This is what you’re doing.

    40) “Ezekiel was a leader of his people, and an intelligent guy, who was far more informed of the activities outside of his own country than most. He understood the political climate and knew strategically what a conquering army would want to do, so he put down this “prophesy” so that people were amazed when they occurred. If a political commentator said four years before the Iraq war that “There will be a war in Iraq, and blah blah…” does that make him a prophet, no simply someone who read the politics correct.”
    ---Bored to death with your comments. The point of the analysis of Ezekiel’s prophecy, was exactly that: to show that it COULD NOT HAVE BEEN AN EDUCATED PREDICTION!! Stop trying to run like hell from what you are seeing! The seven great details of the prophecy were written not “four years before” but 240 years before!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The chances for such a “prediction”, SCIENCE SAYS, is 1 in 75 MILLION!!!!!!!!!!!

    41) “Of course I have no proof of this I am just showing you one of many simple common sense approaches to this, there probably already is someone with proof to throw off this “prophesy””
    ---a) THIS IS COMMON SENSE TO YOU???? b) Look at your thinking man! “there probably is someone with proof to throw off this “prophecy”.” Your hope for deception is clear. You don’t love the truth. I am sorry for you.

    41) As well you are forgetting that in the end Constantine would not have allowed any “prophesies” in his book that were not already shown to be true or too far off in time for it to affect him.
    ---What does Constantine have to do with it?? I marvel!

    On a side note what if some one invested in that area and built up a city, think of how fast Dubai sprung up, it really is not that far fetched an idea, does that mean that the entirety of the Bible is wrong, since I don’t see Ezekiel saying “nothing will be built till 2019? and you are saying that this being a true prophesy is proof that the Bible is the Truth, so doesn’t that mean If a city is built there it is no longer the Truth?
    ---a) Really pathetic I must say. Very disappointed. I know everybody -I mean with a little brain- agrees. b) Until something is built there (I mean the place is as prophesied for 2400 years about!!) the prophecy is fulfilled to the last great detail!!

    42) -”you’re just another Taliban fanatic.”
    wow … so basically .. I’m either a Christian or a fanatical Muslim …
    --- Again, my words out of context. I clearly wrote:
    “If Vilya, you don’t see the above as an indication to a) A God, and to b) the God of The Bible, then there is no point in replying to any of your comments… you’re just another Taliban fanatic. (I said “if”.)
    And guess what Vilya? You are proven such, in the sense that like them, you can’t think straight! You’re fanatic to the point not being able to “hear” what I am saying due to your brainwashing (your probably about 20-25), taking my words out of context, neglecting the facts provided, wanting to be blind to them since you make comments like the one on point 41… all this, just as a fanatic Muslim would!

    43) “This is probably why my friend told me not to bother answering … you question my logic on so many things, you say I am brainwashed, you call me arrogant and ignorant, (though I concede the arrogance I do tend to be sometimes) but without actually examining my point of view you use cyclic logic, unproven Ideas, insults and hate all arrogantly put, to put down my ideas and then pompously say that I must do more research before writing.”
    --- Look people, I am accused of this. What a twist!

    44) “Let’s stop this, you are not the type to listen and while you may have new “proofs” like the Ezekiel prophesy that I have not seen before, simple logic and research would show me the flaws within it.
    ---a) What Ezekiel prophecy?! There are dozens like this (that most atheists know nothing about)!!! b) “simple logic”?… Vilya, you have failed that test. c) “research”? You need simple logic for that, as well as an open mind. d) “to show (you) the flaws in it”? What for? From what I have seen, you make up flaws as you go along!

    45) “I do not believe the Bible in itself is bad but I do think that more bad than good has been done in its name.”
    ---a) You can think it, but you can’t prove it. If you attempt to, consider -as well- asking the Christian millions of changed lives, due to how God uses it in their lives. b) what hypocrites and atheist politicians do with The Bible, involves not The Bible’s purposes/messages, but people’s ignorance of the Bible itself and their naivity for they can be lead like sheep to wrong decisions (Christians are people too). Do you know how many politicians used evolution as a reason to kill people? I hope you did your research on that as well…

    46) “The simple fact of you marking me as a Taliban, and lack of knowledge surrounding the fact that other religions exist is an evil in itself.”
    ---No. You did that... by accident! Listen Vilya: You think you know how to think when you don’t (most people don’t, you are the rule. Even many Christians don’t know how to think.), and this is where your fanatic blinding logic comes from. I hate my honesty right now, I do, but my hope is to awaken you to your self before you get trapped in him and can’t get out (although I think this might have already happened).

    47) “Because according to you, even though I do so much volunteer work (too much to put here and I don’t want to sound like i’m boasting), donate money to good causes, never stolen anything, never hurt anyone, respect women and believe they are just as good as men, simply because I do not believe in the Bible, I am a fanatical Taliban and well what better to do with a Fanatical Taliban than kill him. Oddly I am not and have never been Muslim.”
    ---I am not talking about the rest of your character Vilya. I don’t know you. I am talking about the part of your heart that fights the truth, that part belongs to a fanatic Taliban.
    You were given -through me- a chance, a push in the right direction. I leave you to yourself and to answer the above if you want. Say what you want, I will not respond to your comments.
    Sorry I sounded “loud” some times (I’m just an “alarm”, I wouldn’t ever harm you!), but it is because you don’t know what is at stake, and you’ve shown me that you can’t realize the extent of the spiritual harm you are doing to yourself.
    Anyway, God bless you Vilya.
    If -as I said in ZR- you want, I am at your disposal (get my email whenever you want).
    In Christ,
    Alex

  • Alex

    Vilya, sorry! In 38 b) when saying: "this", I meant prophecy (not psychic ability). That is:
    "Prophecy has nothing to do with brain ability “tuned in” to the future somehow (as one psychic theory has it), but with divine revelation."

    Bye.

  • g33kch1ck

    Sooo... Gene Roddenberry was right all along? YES!!!

  • Vilya

    Oh and you keep asking what comments, when I state that I had previous comments rebutting the concept of The Venus Project.
    Its this one
    Vilya
    June 16th, 2009 at 20:19
    Really not going to re post, just scroll up

  • Vilya

    The above is of course all to Alex

  • Nameless

    Well said Vilya , Neat and simple , you have clearly hit the points and I guess this final one should make more sense than any of the comments I have read over here so far.

    Vilya:"
    As I learn more and experience life more, my own ideas grow and evolve into better ones.
    I can say I do not know.
    I can say I am not sure.
    I can say Its just a thought.
    I can say this is the most probable reason.
    Things religion cannot say. " mind controls the understandings -> understandings controls the perceptions & sensations

  • Alex

    Vilya, I sent you a quick answer, but it just disappeared. That's weird... But maybe it will show up. (I am not going to write it again. Besides, no reason.)

  • Alex

    Nameless, hi again! You really believe that what Vilya implies about Christians is actually true??
    These generalizations are such a common mistake. Of course a Christian (and all other theists as well) can say:
    "I can say I do not know.
    I can say I am not sure.
    I can say Its just a thought.
    I can say this is the most probable reason."
    We -as Christians- can say these things about matters of science, as well as about issues of our faith, e.g. I do not know what God is "made of". I am not sure where the epitomy between the soul and the spirit is found. I can say it's "just a thought" when I speak with Christians on deeper theological matters, and yes, I do say (on particular issues): "This is "the most probable reason God chose it to do it this way and not the other".
    BUT, this doesn't mean I should be as ignorant regarding my faith, as an atheist is regarding it!!! To hipocritically see everything as "grey", when I don't, just because others foolishly expect it (!) from me, is the same as lying!
    I mean, what misrepresentation of Christians and Christianity!! And those who do not know about Christians and Christianity, read stuff like the ones on this thread, mostly young people, and get THE (definitely!!) WRONG IDEA, thus getting initiated into propaganda/brainwashing/deception, and becomimg vindictive towards Christians/Christianity/...God! and religions in general.
    See, these young reactionarries just think they are writting something "cool", "openminded", when it's really not. I mean, they can say whatever they want, and have nothing to loose (because they are already lost yourself and don't even have a clue about it). But Christians see them -in ignorance- openly misrepresenting them (others openly lie about them!), and they are suppose to say: "Oh ok, maybe you're right!" or "Thanks for your opinion, it was helpful!" or "We don't have a brain in our head, can you please share some of yours with us?" or "Well find out one day. (when they already know!)". Atheists are so so so so so bothered by Christians who think. If they could kill us and get away with it, they would indeed do so!
    So, my advice to any young person, is not to give too much attention to atheistic science fiction, "grey-ism", "cool loud-mouth talk", because it in fact, in reality, does not ammount to anything helpful, but actually harmful.
    PS. Univeristies/colleges take young people eager to learn and make most of them atheists, some of them become scientists, and their atheism wil definitely be behind their "science". This is natural, since their teachers have undergone the same process when they were students. And so it is on and on and on and on in the past and in the future. See Satan is very organized in his tactics, to the point where he can do his thing, without ever showing up! He just starts by taking advantage of young people's zeal to learn and be "patted on the back", because he wants to get the next generation of atheist ready.... he wants their soul in hell with him as well as the souls they can reach for him!
    Well, that's all folks!
    God bless you, Nameless!

  • http://deleted eaststone

    i rather be jupe muslim khristirna hindu or budist, you name ít, listen to folk, rage agaist the machine, or pinkfloyd. how can this be so ignorant. and pure......talking about progress

  • DancingSpiderman

    "what’s going to happen with us after we die?"

    We become Bacteria Food and/or Worm Food.

    Don't worry.
    Be Happy.

  • Nameless

    Alex: PS. Univeristies/colleges take young people eager to learn and make most of them atheists, some of them become scientists, and their atheism will definitely be behind their “science”. This is natural, since their teachers have undergone the same process when they were students. And so it is on and on and on and on in the past and in the future.

    -----

    I partly agree on the point that universities do put willingly/unwillingly some level of conditioning to the students so that they can fit inside this competitive dog eat dog corporate world out there. Critical thinking is an integral part of any education system however the fundamental dilemma remains where to apply this critical thinking in an already handovered unchallenged information. But making them atheist or stripping them off from their religious faith is not always true but in many case it is. And for a good reason so. Its a natural outcome of installing a kind of thinking system that judges a person more on the kind of question they ask than the answers they may have. When one starts questioning about everything , its natural they figure out that critical thinking has always been the root of all scientific insights.

    Thousand years back people believed demons were the cause of illness. Few centuries people believed the earth is flat. And today there are people who believe education is "Satan's organized tactics". Although as stated multiple times earlier my views are not restricted to just christianity but on all religions , therefore I would like to put some small things forward which may help you understand the problem within all of us.

    1. Religion separates humans more than any other organized and institutionalized belief system.
    2. Every religion is further separated within itself with different inner factions. These inner factions are sometimes sub divided into further inner factions.
    3. Religion will always instill a form of blind submission in the name of 'faith'.
    4. No religion has ever done anything good for anybody. Its the people who are solely responsible for all the good and evil deeds.
    5. Its a common myth among all the religions that if someone does good - its an act of god and if someone commits evil - its the influence of the devil. So Christians are no exception in this core ideology.
    6. Without religion still there will be good people doing good and the bad people doing evil. Its the religion that can make good people do evil.
    7. Any form of belief system that implants fear and nightmare of hell in a child's mind has no reason justifiable enough to do so. Mentally raping a child is worse than a physically abusive school teacher.
    8. All religion has the same roots like it or not. Because the concept of God itself comes from the same source.
    9. The only thing that has improved the living is science. Science can be anything right from a simple ink pen, to the clothes we wear, to the chair we sit , the keyboard we use to type our replies, the medicines to every possible thing you might imagine. The links you refer in support to your belief is also a part of technology (which is again a subset of applied science) without the internet I just wonder how much tough it would have been for you to gather your so called "evidence" to support your belief.
    10. Science is not evil. I repeat science is not evil. Its the people whose deeds are evil. Most anti science claims are because of making nuclear weapons and other wmds but thats again a result of political agenda and geo-political / economic gains than a direct result of science itself. You can use a baseball bat to play baseball or smash somebody's skull. Its upto the human being holding it.

  • Vilya

    open quote

    Alex
    July 5th, 2009 at 00:46

    "b) Today is Christianity is all over the world and is increasing, due to hundreds of years of professing faith."

    end quote

    Contradicting yourself once again....sigh

    As well to you Alex and everyone else reading, I deeply apologies for my literary errors, I tend to think my sentence faster than I type, thus I need to review a couple times to make sure to "dot my i's and cross my t's". Commas, especially due to my form of writing are very important and I tend to miss some, :P or hit the period instead or vise-versa. I do not have enough time on this site to read over properly, all of the time, again my apologies.

    Nameless,
    I thank you for your efforts in my support and agree with most of what you saying though there are one or two things you have wrong:

    "5. Its a common myth among all the religions that if someone does good – its an act of god and if someone commits evil – its the influence of the devil. So Christians are no exception in this core ideology."

    This is true for prophetic religions. Within Vedic thought (which is not a religion) and MOST religions that came out of it (Jainism, Hinduism, Buddhism, more) YOU are responsible for your actions. This is the basis of Kharma that most people do not understand. The concept of Kharma says you are responsible for your actions, you cannot blame any higher power for it being good or bad, it was your choice to take the action thus you must deal with its consequences. Which is why its good to be good..:)

    Also you say
    "8. All religion has the same roots like it or not. Because the concept of God itself comes from the same source."

    I disagree with this statement, There are MANY different, sources of religion, and many different concepts, all of which did not originate from the same place, historically speaking. Though, I sense, you did not articulate exactly what you meant, so I hope for some clarification.

    Also do not become the religious antithesis. If you hold the idea of scientific thought trumping, religious thought then you cannot live in absolutes. Just as Alex vehemently says, everything is NOT gray, just after he says, "Christians can say" and quotes a bunch of things I said, pertaining to seeing the world as gray and not absolutes, do not, speak from the standpoint of a scientist and then use generalized absolutes, such as "The only thing that has improved the living is science.". Religion does have its good points ... it is fanatical belief in Religion that I am against.

    Whether a person labels themselves under a religion or not, you should be able to doubt.

    As well I disagree with your statement (you did not firmly purport this but you did allude to agreeing)and Alex's that tertiary institutions somehow brainwash their students into being atheists. The reason there are so many students leaving tertiary institutions as NOT religious is because there they HAVE to become good critical thinkers. This skill is necessary in the search for "truth" or to find fact within theory, no matter the field of study. The ability to ask the correct questions to everything, only stopping when you have completely exhausted every angle possible is essential for University study. When you are able to honestly place critical thought to any religion in its current version, there are none that can stand up to the scrutiny. Well non that I know of. That is why most people break the illusion of religion when they take tertiary education.

    On a side note I never understood why "God" the supposedly Almighty does not simply kill Satan, or get rid of him somehow. He supposedly loves us so much that he would do anything for us, even send his "son" to die, but he can't simple get rid of Satan. Who is purportedly to blame for every evil in the world.

  • Nameless

    Hi Vilya,

    I guess I should have been more specific in my points because I do agree with what you have stated in the act of correcting my 5th and 8th point.

    Regarding point 5:
    I should have included the 'word' prophetic because that would certainly eliminate the possibility of including the religions with the Vedic roots. I do have enormous respect for the Vedic teachings not just because I have a Vedic ancestry but also the fact that they were even scientifically correct in most cases. Karma is a logical outcome of an individual's actions and its collective reaction from the whole world around him. Its called the universal balance. Nature has its own way of balancing everything and we should always consider ourselves to be a part of it and not something separated from it. Though there are still some questions over karma affecting afterlives since to my limited understanding karma is applicable to actions of one single lifetime and paying for those actions within that same lifetime instead of reincarnating again and paying the price of sins from the past life. This understanding somehow slightly contradicts with the absolute karma analogy as stated in Hinduism and Buddhism. But even then Hinduism can be said its partly a semi-prophetic religion considering the context from Bhagvad Geeta where Lord Krishna speaks of different ages of mankind one of which is the age we are living today known as "Kalyug". And this age is attached to some prophecies as mentioned in Geeta. Though I would love to go deeper into the specifics but I guess its somehow beyond the scope of this conversation.(Lol was just wondering if Vlatko can put some kinda discussion forum).As such I absolutely agree on the part that these religions never speak of devil's influence over our sins or God's will with our good deeds. Because all of them are Karma centric religion.

    Regarding point 8:
    Well regarding the historical source of all religions, they differ geographically and in the timeline of their birth but nothing is so certain about what was enlightenment in the first place. The founding base for any religion is on a concept of enlightenment and omnipresence of an entity. The application of divinity to this entity differs from one religion to another. The birth of the earliest forms of religion are in direct proportion to the birth of the earliest human civilization. However contrary to the mainstream
    archeological beliefs there are numerous evidences that needs to be closely examined to figure out the exact age of the first human civilization since the Egyptian and the Aryans are so far the oldest civilizations considered. Now here I would like to attempt a some sort of simple blueprint of the founding structure of the earliest religions in the smallest possible way so that they can fit into the scope of this discussion instead going into the glorious intricacies of all points below.

    Level 1: The random birth of questions from all corners of the human mind seeking answers.

    Level 2: The incessant need of answers to the unexplained phenomenons of the universe outside us and within us.

    Level 3: Segregation started at level2. Some looked for the answers outside the inner realm of consciousness.These were the ones who excelled in astronomy and the ancients

    understood the significance of the effect of astronomy to the human lives. They understood what happened up there in the skies directly affected what happened down here on earth. Thats why we have so many ancient civilizations giving surmounting importance to the study of galactic bodies. Some looked for answers within themselves.These were the ones who excelled in inner healing , concepts of time and its relation to the motion of our consciousness, meditation and yogic science , much of it is mentioned in the Vedas.

    Level 4: Now we have a birth of another group of people who tried to inter relate the findings of both faction of people mentioned in Level3. To their surprise not some but all of the findings from both factions have staggering levels of relation between them which can be said as the "first level of understanding how the universe works". But the complexity of this ripple effect relation between the findings was so high that it wasnt possible for a single individual to represent it on a simpler language that can be easily interpreted and understood by the general mass of that time. Hence , the closest bottomline those individuals liked us to draw was the fact that all life (living / non living) are so very well inter connected that we need to respect the totality of our collective and universal consciousness.Even today we see that all branch of studies(science / arts / literature etc) can be related directly or indirectly. But even then it was very difficult for the general mass to comprehend this understanding at the core conceptual level. And this was because of the limitation of language.Thus the books that were written were almost always open to subjective interpretations of the readers. This is where the problem started.

    Level 5: Different interpretations led to different manifestation of the same finding. Many of the findings which were not clearly understandable ended up in a common group of anomalies that was ripped off,remixed,diluted or encapsulated with half-understandings and half preconceived notions. This ultimately resulted in a series of never ending mythical stories that ended up fitting those incomprehensible parts of the findings which later got so much entrenched and pervasive which led to the formation of individual
    versions of philosophical foundations and moral guidelines of living. I believe this is the part where the concept of "God" came into the picture because the "God" that we know through the different religions is different from the actual God underlying within us at the quantum level which the earliest findings wanted us to understand. I have also mentioned the birth of the so called God of the religious "version" in the (right/left brain) conflict which I believe you read it and gave your honest feedback on it. That whole chapter on the birth of God is the subset of this point 5.

    Level 6: This religious version of God became a symbol of an enlightened entity with the highest moral and ethical values. But there was again a problem. It was created out of mythical understandings of the actual truth and the moral guidelines derived out of this version led to various rituals and traditions (some of them are highly condemnable and some of them are highly questionable).

    Level 7: Now till level 6 the first religion on earth was found on a specific timeline , it gradually took its course of distortion and individual manifestation as centuries passed by. With time the geographical margin and the migration of different versions of the same faith increased further. Finally this drifting of questionable understanding went upto such extent that prophetic religions were born with messiahs and cooked up ridiculous stories that hardly had any remnants of the actual findings mentioned in level 4. This was by far the most distorted and ego centric version of God with colossal level of fantasies like heaven and hell. However the commonalities among these religions were still quite high and I must not exclude the fact that there were still quite a lot of good teachings included in all of them(As such I agree with you on the scale that all religion has got their own good points ). But then again the same problem of language came in. Language has been the key to some of the biggest problems on earth when it comes to communicating complex scenarios with simplicity. The writings of these prophetic religions again suffered heavily from individual interpretations rather gaining a certain consensus. Again the same process followed as mentioned in the Level 5. At this stage we see the level segregation at all time high while even the individual prophetic religions getting further sub divided into several smaller factions with different forms of understanding on the same story.

    To my understanding these 7 levels are so fundamental in explaining the way religion is born and the way it works that all of them can individually fill a thick book. I dont deny the fact that I may be wrong because at the end of it all its just again a single person's understandings and not a collective consensus. This is what I actually meant when I was referring to Alex about the roots of all religion is the same.

    Coming to the part where I stated "No religion has ever done anything good for anybody" I think I should have more specific over here too. Since again by the limitation of our language I was trying to send a message to Alex that inorder to do good an individual doesnt need to follow religious moral guidelines and god defined ethical codes not to mention tiring conventions. One can do good to others without the need of following any religion at all or in some expectation that they will be placed in heaven for their
    deeds. Its all karma at the end of the day.

    Regarding agreeing to the education point with Alex , I agreed with him on a slightly tangent scale where I believe education system do condition students. But for a different reason altogether. I think conditioning students would still be a bold statement that can be blown outta proportions.Rather a better word could making them specialized for fitting into a more capitalist market where their annual salary is made a higher concern than the individual growth of talent and specialization after their education(at a university level) is over. But even said that I dont deny that students are exposed to critical thinking and as I said earlier its quite natural when they start applying critical thinking in all aspects of life. Thus their religion becomes no exception. And from here on you have rightly explained why most people break the illusion of religion when they take tertiary education. But lolz again to the point where Alex comes here an say that education is Satan's trick.

    Coming to the part of science where I put the bold statement like only science has improved human life. I guess again the explanation for the correct meaning was missing. The quest for improving human life at all levels ( biological, medical, technical, astronomical, etc.) takes birth from natural and universal insights. This quest for improving human and as well animal/plant life on earth has been the key to all uplifts in better living. From science I actually meant the start of this quest.

    Damn it took my first half of the Sunday writing this up :) . Need some rest ! Tkc Vilya ;)

  • Jeff D.

    I would like to ask a very important question...

    theistic religions are date from around 1500-2500 years old...modern science, on the other hand, is just a couple 100 years into its' existence. I can make a very educated guess that science will continue to boom and inevitably take over as the global "belief" system(i put this in quotations b/c, unlike theistic religions, science is FACT in that it labels things as true once experimentally proven but allows room for change when any particular thing may change from fact over time)...It is a only matter of time...just as those theistic religions, namely christianity, significantly grew over the two thousand years. The main difference is that science makes claims that are irrefutably true whereas theistic religions instill faith and force their followers to agree to the "facts" that it presents without ever offering a logical explanation. So my question to you is, how can you deny this trend? It's time to move your faith elsewhere folks.

    Also, if you attempt to answer this question from a christian standpoint...be prepared to make an attempt in answering "how can you defend Adam and Eve over evolution?"
    One christian attempted to tell me that "Adam and Eve is simply a metaphor for single-celled organisms." I don't think so buddy...I expect you to have arguments prepared on anything I say, otherwise you are just another blind follower. A general conclusion: If you follow christianity, you either haven't been exposed to the facts or have closed your ears and eyes when confronted with them. Start giving credit where it is due, to Mother Nature!

  • octopussy

    the religious aspects of this movie were not really the point of the film i thought, i was far more interested in what comes next for us as a species, religious folk are all mad everyone knows tha dont they anyway?
    religion being indiscernable from the phenoma of mass delusion.
    heres a little thought experiment/ logic equation:
    economic health of a country is measured by its economic growth.
    economic growth goes hand in hand with population expansion.
    the size of the earth is finite.
    therefore earths resources are finite.
    im sure you can work out the rest for yourselves.

    our current economic system whilst in the past has done amazing things for humankind (western humankind at any rate) we are fast approaching the point where this cannot continue anymore purely because we are wasting all the resources we have, so a resource based "economy" is inevitable, whilst the venus project may not be how it pans out at least these guys have the forethought to come up with some ideas and if you pick out the good ones- ie. sustainable technology that whilst "expensive" in modern thinking is actually "cheap" in relation to the resources we have as a species, capitalisms wheels have fallen off and the world is idiotically trying to repair them with the very ideals that made it break, those that prescribe a growing economy a "healthy" one.
    this idea is not new.
    the cree native american prophecy:
    only when the last tree has been cut down,
    only when the last river has been poisoned,
    only when the last fish has been caught,
    only then you will discover that money cannot be eaten.

  • Jeff D.

    I completely agree with your post octopussy, as I am going to school to become a renewable energy engineer...I just wanted to quiet the religious people up with an irrefutable argument so that we could focus on the real importance of this movie. And as you claim, I also believe a resource-based economy is inevitable...the only thing that might prevent that from happening is if the wealthy maintain their control of the ill-informed masses...

  • octopussy

    i thought what i wrote was a bit unfair to vilya and alex and thought i would try to decipher one of the posts in their discussion and give it a chance- ie the one above, i am still no wiser as to what your discussion is about, it just seems to be a battle as to who can sound smartest and type longest with numbered points and pedantic correction of irrelevant semantics, please stop please please please you are amking yourselves look daft talking loud but saying nothing.
    empty vessels always make the most noise.

  • octopussy

    FAO Vilya and alex, just stop it will ya? the lenghty and tediously repetetive discussion you two seem to carry on in these comment sections does mine and others heads in, the place to hold your discussions is a forum and then someone might read them perhaps, without tracing back all the way to how your discussion started they are indecipherable babble! im sure they are very interesting and all but they sure clog up the comment boards so much so that ive posted two similar messages on the same film cos i cant be bothered to wade through your essays, they seem rarely relevant to actual films and trust me they dont get read by anyone but each other- do us a favour vlatko and shift them somewhere cos they just dominate all the comment pages on your site and noone else can get a word in!
    im sure your discussion is valuable but forty paragraphs in a comment space where the average is one is taking the piss a bit really, i scroll through them everytime as im sick of the repetetive points and counterpoints you make that are rarely relevant to the document they are posted under.
    i dont mean to offend but shut the f*** up.

  • Shannan

    Many of the things about electronic tools are right, many of my friends have pointed this out about phones only lasting 3 years now or less, and there has been a large increase in ‘technological rubbish’. It made me laugh when they mentioned the cars. The un-doubtable fact is that the oil companies did by out a lot of progressive cars. I heard a story where a man in Brisbane Australia, made a car built running of only water. No idea what happened, but it is greed plain when it comes to the oil companies and car companies as well. Unfortunality because the problem remains we are in fact in a society that runs the way it does with the reliance on money, it is hard to avoid it. You cannot live without it. Many of these projects are not possible without it.
    It’s true that we believe life is the way it should be, when it doesn’t have to be. Technically the power lies in the majority, and even after more than a thousand years there have only been a few times this has been acknowledged. If the economic crisis does hit, we lose our jobs, for something that isn’t ‘our’ fault, because of a faulty system we were born into. Then count me in, I’m going to go look this up, but at the moment it actually sounds like something is being done. That to me sounds better then working myself silly towards the goal of a comfortable lifestyle, what’s the point? Work shouldn’t be monotonous, education should be something we shouldn’t be paying for or be given the expectation that learning and knowledge is pretentious and bigoted. Because it doesn’t have be, we should have complete access to learn and gain knowledge, it should be something we ‘want to do’, and to be healthy as well. We have the facilities so why are we letting ourselves be blindfolded by corrupted by ignorance when we can go and learn for ourselves?

    To be honest I've been sucked in, and I like how fantastic this sounds, and how realistic it seems to me. But my main concern is perhaps the most obvious. That is, that humans have this need for money. It is a fundamental core to our society. Instead of researching and being product, people are lazy, because they see no reason to be any other way. what ever the reason, arises a problem with this scheme. that is progressing the human race from the now to the idealistic future, whether it is possible or not. I say this because, there are possibilites, and as far as I believe people don't change, only their interest and their societies. So even within this Society there would be problems, but I guess what they are proposing is that, these 'problems' will be consequently different to the ones we experience today, instead of feeding one person with knowledge, creativity, we share this and expand each person individually beyond our dependecy on something invisable, something that we have no proof that exists.

  • Alex

    1/2 parts
    Just so not start eating space again, I figured why not, I'll at least touch upon some points from time to time when I visit the site.
    Octupussy hi!
    Vilya and I have already commented on the movie, and we got in a discussion. So, what's the problem?? You want our comments to be moved elsewhere just so you won't have to use the mouse and move right down to the bottom of the page and place your comment? Please be reasonable. And then you curse at us?? Wow, just go get a new longer fuse would you (a symbolic joke)! (Real… “cool” of you!)

    Jeff D. hello to you too! You write:
    "The main difference is that science makes claims that are irrefutably true whereas theistic religions instill faith and force their followers to agree to the “facts” that it presents without ever offering a logical explanation. So my question to you is, how can you deny this trend? It’s time to move your faith elsewhere folks."
    Now, in the light of all my comments on this thread (as well as on Zeitgeist Refuted and the Movie) which you probably did not take proper time to appreciate, this statement of yours is just funny. That's all it is. You are just repeating things that atheistic propaganda has placed in your mind and don't even know it probably. You're young, hopefully you'll learn. (As you know, hope dies last.)
    Ps. You met a Christian that told you such nonsense on Adam and Eve?! I mean, where do atheists find these "Christians"?? In psychiatric dorms?? And they use them to ridicule Christianity?! The atheist's arguments are running out, that's probably why they resort to such comments. Amuzing to say the least.

  • greeble

    I cant work out what yur on about either alex, your comments arent actually on the film and they are on every movie ive seen on this site, i think you should get yourself to a creationism vs atheism forum like the angry octopus suggests- where your discussion might be more appreciated, as for the movie very interesting indeedy but for me it wasnt about the religion bit- it was about outmoded philosophies on human existence/ways of life of which religion is merely a facet, there are many examples of bad human philosophy brought up in the film so to focus the debate on evangelism- atheist or god based is frankly unhelpful and distracting from the films message which is profound and beautiful. oneness - even the atheists should like that one.

  • Alex

    Greeble hi!
    1) Did you see that I'm not replying to myself (!) but to others? Yes you did. So why are you picking on me? :) I'm probably the only Christian on the thread! Most of the guys I respond to, are also on the other threads as well! 2) I already coomented on the movie extensively (See June 20th).
    3) I agree that the idea of a paradise on earth or oneness as you say is beautiful and comforting, but it is still a utopia as I've showed.
    God bless you!

  • Jeff D.

    Alex,
    Speak from an open-minded viewpoint please. You judged me and you know very little about me which nearly discouraged me from taking the time to respond, nonetheless, here I am...Firstly, I am not atheist, I am Agnostic. Moving on, propaganda only partially addresses an issue or topic in a manner to influence the audience. Tell me, what facts do atheists leave behind? And explain to me how atheist arguments are running out and what atheist "propaganda" even is. I find it the exact opposite in that every theistic religion fails to even acknowledge the many questions that science asks, let alone attempt to answer them. Tell me what you think of evolution and tell me how you think the "inventors" of Christianity knew so much about the things that we still have no clue about today (this is important for you to address). I do not rule out a "god," but I could never defend his existence either, as our best technology today fails to answer that question.
    Also, I must admit that the example Christian response I used was an extreme one. However, with that being said, I find it incredibly hard to get responses out of most Christians because the first question or 2 that I ask usually has them stuttering and mumbling to god for help. The truth is, that there are SO MANY blind Christian followers that attempt to answer questions that they simply cannot, similar to the religion itself.
    Your verbal attack on me has no effect. You call my comment funny and amusing but never suggest why. You couple that by making assumptions about me and use words like "probably" when talking about my "beliefs." If that is your best attempt to discredit the things that I say then I wish you luck in your future debates, as you will need a lot of it.

    In Nature I trust! Nature created man! (haha...it's funny how things make so much more sense when you replace "god" with "Nature")

  • Alex

    Jeff D. hi!
    Other than accusations you haven't (as most) replied properly to anything I've said. Very unfair of you and dishonest I feel. But I'm use to it. The videos not being credible is absurdly obsene, unless you give the word "credible" another "insight".
    Regarding his miracles, from where you are standing you cannot see why they don't show up on television. The reason is that materialism is the force that dominates the MM. Strong things like this, are not allowed! They are too shocking to the many non religious, to a big part of the worlds belief system. Miracle workers like this guy, show up on Christian channels or maybe some local secular channel who dare such a feet. There's way much more that does not see the light of day and this is not a coincidence. Anyway. Regarding the link you present, well Jeff, Christ warned:
    Mat 24:23-27 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    --Jesus prophetically warned of this simply because He knew these kind of people would show up! But the real pity to me Jeff is the foolishness and gullibility of his followers... or is it that he offers a "christ" which allows them more freedoms than the Christ of the Bible, that is, appealing to their fleshly desires...? That needs further research, but I do believe this is the case. Note that he is not a miracle worker.
    God bless you!

  • Dnyce721

    BOY! The minute u point out the flaws in relegion,the feathers get ruffle on the bless u crew. It is old and primative.WAKE UP SHEEPLE

  • Alex

    Jeff D.
    Personally I like the idea of the Venus project (I saw Zeitgeist Movement as well). And although I found many sci fi flaws in it, I consider it to be going towards the right direction. If the governments are persuaded to the idea, then there is hope. On the other hand if not, the only thing that can make it possible is if they blow up "the planet" and start all over again with just a few people...!
    But in my view, neither will take place.

  • WTC7

    Alex' last post says:

    Alex
    August 17th, 2009 at 19:49
    Jeff D.
    "Personally I like the idea of the Venus project (I saw Zeitgeist Movement as well). And although I found many sci fi flaws in it, I consider it to be going towards the right direction."

    Compare it with what he says about that same Venus Project on June 20 in:

    Alex
    June 20th, 2009 at 04:47
    ".... So there would have to be a second dedicated generation -just as zealous as the first- for the cause. (Yea right!…) Meanwhile, the concept itself will be spreading hate (that is, if it is “allowed” to exist, if you know what I mean…) toward the government and toward all religions, while feeding the people with delusions of a paradise they will never get to see. This sounds like occult thinking, that wants to lead a people… to where???"

    (I guess in the right direction..... as Alex says himself.... today)

    Talking about real consistency of one's views.

    And on June 18:
    Alex
    June 18th, 2009 at 19:45
    "Zeitgeist is from the beginning an atheist propaganda."
    (According to Alex himself again, that should be the right direction too)

  • Achems Razor

    Nobody mentions Reincarnation! That was the prime message in the Bible until in 553 A.D. the belief in reincarnation was outlawed at the second Synad council of Constantinople under the influence of the Emperor Justinian. An acceptance of reincarnation took away the power of the Heaven and Hell mob to frighten and empower people. So reincarnation was taken out of the Bible!

  • Alex

    WTC7
    You definitely have a problem. Your eyes are filled with such hate for me that you don't even see what you're reading.
    Indeed a) Zeitgeist is a propaganda b) and indeed the process (!) of achieving the goal will definitely create hate among people!
    BUT THE CENTRAL IDEA OF THE VENUS PROJECT (THE IDEA!) IS A GOOD ONE! That is, the goal, the purpose, the desired outcome, is in theory good, if what it simply promotes is a better world through the use of natural resources and science, where money is not a god, where man is free, and people are living rather than surviving. This indeed is "going in the right direction"!!! But unfortunately, the flaws are many and the obstacles way more, so -realistically- it will never happen. But the idea of such a "clean" world is admirable, and maybe can -in a very small scale- bring some few "fruits" (natural resources). Other than that, it's "fantasy island" or if you prefer an "atlantis" utopia.
    --WTC7 If you don't have love in your heart, you can't even read properly. I have a message for you: You ARE the kind of people you hate. It is made clear to me over and over. Speaking of consistency :)
    God bless you anyway!

  • WTC7

    How about the story from the Old Testament where God needed the Israelites to paint their doors with lamb blood so that his angel wouldn't make a mistake and kill one of their own first-born children, making sure that only the Egyptian kids would be killed? Without getting into a discussion of how disgusting that god is, I'm simply wondering why would an almighty and omnipotent god need such assistance?

    Or the other story, which I really like. God asks Abraham to kill his own son and as the latter is about to do it, God says - oh, I was just kidding, simply wanted to see how much you loved ME. Come on, if God did that to me I'd be mighty pissed off with him. I'd think that he should KNOW if I loved him or not and what he could expect from me.

    And than, suddenly, the very same God starts preaching for peace and love. (This, by the way, is a wonderful message that Jesus brought to the world. But he brought it, unfortunately, only to a small number of people, even among his followers, given the bloody history of the Christian church.)

    I really don't know, my views about right or wrong may be totally distorted, but I can't believe in such a god.

    Christians ramble about pagans and their many gods, but I'd like an explanation on why then they need all those saints? There are saint to cover every aspect of life (illness, travel, celebrations, and who knows what not), where I'd think that would be his own job as he is omnipotent. So, is Christianity a monotheistic religion or not???

    I'm really fed up with all this crap and especially fed up with those who try to impose their stupid beliefs on others. Not all Christians are like that, of course, but there are some who make up for the healthy ones.

    Now, I am really sorry if I offended anyone with what I said, but I just find it extremely irritating that this discussion has focused on only one aspect of the Zeitgeist thanks to a few people who literally invaded it with long and boring essays!

  • WTC7

    Dear Alex,

    I have read ALL your discussions on the subject, and I will repeat this symptomatic one:

    “…. So there would have to be a second dedicated generation -just as zealous as the first- for the cause. (Yea right!…) Meanwhile, the concept itself will be spreading hate (that is, if it is “allowed” to exist, if you know what I mean…) toward the government and toward all religions, while feeding the people with delusions of a paradise they will never get to see. This sounds like occult thinking, that wants to lead a people… to where???”

    That certainly doesn't sound that you think the IDEA is anywhere close to good.

    No, I don't hate you. But since you mentioned it, let me remind you that people see in others their own reflection. If you can understand what I mean.

    Actually, you mention that the "concept will be spreading HATE" in the above quote... Now, you see hate everywhere, it seems....

    But you got one thing right, I do have a problem with people with whom a healthy discussion is impossible.

  • Alex

    WTC7 HI!
    First of all, know that when a Christian does not have the answers to something you ask, this may mean he is to a degree ignorant or simply God has not revealed such an answer to the Church. (When I say Church, I am not talking about the Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, churches, but the One Church God sees, composed of all those who He considers -according to Scripture- “Church type” we can say.) having said that, you write:
    1) “…Without getting into a discussion of how disgusting that god is, I’m simply wondering why would an almighty and omnipotent god need such assistance?”
    ---a) Again we see your hate, and disrespect to someone else’s God/belief.
    b) Your question though (strikingly) is a legitimate one, one that I have wondered my self. The question is, can you handle a legitimate answer. It goes like this: The Bible does not tell us why God uses divine servants. BUT, I believe that obviously there is a hierarchy through which God comes in contact with man. So, God simply just doesn’t do some things, while He does do other things. It’s like a colonel or a major in the army. They know everything that is happening in their unit, but deal with some issues “hands on” while other issues are to be taken care of by the sergeants and corporals.
    c) regarding the “disgusting” part, I must say, you are too little to grasp deeper issues of God’s Personality and purposes and hidden agendas. That is why you can trash Him so easily. It is so you.

    2) “Or the other story, which I really like. God asks Abraham to kill his own son and as the latter is about to do it, God says – oh, I was just kidding, simply wanted to see how much you loved ME. Come on, if God did that to me I’d be mighty pissed off with him. I’d think that he should KNOW if I loved him or not and what he could expect from me.”
    ---a) It is true, that if He did that to you would be, but that’s why He wouldn’t do such a thing to someone like you. Abraham had qualities that in your blindness and hate, you just can’t realize.
    b) Something portrayed all over The Bible is that what God “knows” about a man’s heart, has to always be substantiated by works of faith, love, obedience etc. Works are the seal of goodness, not good desires. This is why He tests Abraham. Also, something you just can’t appreciate, is that this event is simultaneously useful in serving as a teaching for those who read it humility. It teaches to a point, how God felt when He sacrificed His Son for us, something that could not be avoided (like by an angel) since God’s justice demanded punishment for mankind (I know you can’t get it), it teaches that God tests don’t have the purpose of destroying someone, Abraham and his son, but to substantiate the depth of inner realities. There’s more to say about this point, but I consider them too sacred for any thread.

    3) “And than, suddenly, the very same God starts preaching for peace and love. (This, by the way, is a wonderful message that Jesus brought to the world. But he brought it, unfortunately, only to a small number of people, even among his followers, given the bloody history of the Christian church.)”
    ---a) Yes, you just can’t get it.
    b) The “bloody history” you’re talking about is that of Christian religions not the Christian Church. Finally, you have to learn to distinguish the difference. But speaking of “bloody history” did you ever think that almost all (if not all) of the wars in history started by atheists!!!!!!!!! Some of them sometimes proclaim to be Christians (or otherwise) until the guns are out! But no, this is the chant they placed in your mouth and you’ve grown to like it.

    4) “I really don’t know, my views about right or wrong may be totally distorted, but I can’t believe in such a god.”
    ---a) Yes WTC7 they are, but it’s not totally your fault. Atheistic teachings, so called “Christian” religions, as well as some Christian honest mistakes, made you who you are.
    b) Believing in any god, has nothing to do with how likable He appears. One believes -to start off- based on indications/evidence of that god’s existence (in Christianity though there’s more to this…). If he sees that he has good evidence to believe in his existence, then he does so from that point on till he dies. This though doesn’t mean he will consent to that God’s Personality, to the point of following Him. People have said to me, “Your God is the real God, but I don’t want to follow Him, because (reasons vary) a) I don’t like Him or/and b) I love sin too much”. At least they’re honest. Some of them though, do move on to the next level (devotion), they just needed to connect the dots properly, after so much atheistic brainwashing.

    5) “Christians ramble about pagans and their many gods, but I’d like an explanation on why then they need all those saints? There are saint to cover every aspect of life (illness, travel, celebrations, and who knows what not), where I’d think that would be his own job as he is omnipotent. So, is Christianity a monotheistic religion or not???”
    ---a) God, Scripture, and me, agree with you. This is Catholicism and Orthodoxy that you are describing. Only Protestants don’t believe in saints, icons, statues, and this because these teaching and others like them have nothing to do with the New Testament. They derive from ancient occultism. The saints for instance replaced “locally” the pagan gods of the ancients.
    b) Yes, Biblical Christianity is monotheistic.

    6) “I’m really fed up with all this crap and especially fed up with those who try to impose their stupid beliefs on others. Not all Christians are like that, of course, but there are some who make up for the healthy ones.”
    ----a) Just a reality check: anyone who reads -on all Zeitgeist films- your comments to me, will easily realize that you are the one who imposes his beliefs on others.
    b) About that “stupid beliefs”, there are some, but they are not the one’s you think...
    c) You're bringing up religious issues, so why are you "so fed up"? Why do you complain?

    7) “Now, I am really sorry if I offended anyone with what I said, but I just find it extremely irritating that this discussion has focused on only one aspect of the Zeitgeist thanks to a few people who literally invaded it with long and boring essays!”
    ---a) If you are implying me, my comments are not boring. They may seem though to someone who does not want to hear the other side. And they do discuss the rest of the parts of Zeitgeist.
    b) Zeitgeist, all of its parts, is being commented on all Zeitgeist threads. The fact that some find it interesting to comment on the first part of the Movie, is not a coincidence, that is, people have certain “strings” (atheism, theism) they like to play all the time, everywhere. They find them more interesting, entertaining, than other ones.
    c) You yourself comment on the first part of Zeitgeist and on my comments as well. What makes you different? The reason I comment is that people attack (rarely they don’t) Christianity, The Bible and me as well. Hence, my participation here is self explanatory.

    Regarding your last comment (August 18th, 2009 at 01:23):
    1) You comment me in saying: “…. So there would have to be a second dedicated generation -just as zealous as the first- for the cause. (Yea right!…) Meanwhile, the concept itself will be spreading hate (that is, if it is “allowed” to exist, if you know what I mean…) toward the government and toward all religions, while feeding the people with delusions of a paradise they will never get to see. This sounds like occult thinking, that wants to lead a people… to where???”
    That certainly doesn’t sound that you think the IDEA is anywhere close to good.”
    ---WTC7 you are taking this paragraph out of context. I am not talking about the general idea here of a better world, but about the procedure(!), the application(!) of the doctrine of the Venus Project. If Zeitgeist proponents cultivate for instance hate towards religions (since religions are to be “a thing of the past”), in order to achieve The Venus Project in detail, this will create hatred and maybe war! For the last time, I clearly wrote:
    “THE CENTRAL IDEA OF THE VENUS PROJECT (THE IDEA!) IS A GOOD ONE!” Did you see the words in parenthesis?? And then I explain it further by saying: (I added new parentheses’ here for emphasis)
    “That is, the goal, the purpose, the desired outcome, is in theory good, if (see that “if”) what it simply promotes (nothing more! Understand?) is a better world through the use of natural resources and science, where money is not a god, where man is free, and people are living rather than surviving. This (that is, what I just previously said WTC7) indeed is “going in the right direction”!!! But unfortunately, the flaws are many and the obstacles way more, so -realistically- it will never happen. But the idea of such a “clean” world is admirable, and maybe can -in a very small scale- bring some few “fruits” (natural resources). Other than that, it’s “fantasy island” or if you prefer an “atlantis” utopia.”
    I am talking about the central idea of the Venus Project not the Venus Project itself (!) in total. I mean, as a Christian would I want “religion” banned in any way??? How do you figure??

    2) “No, I don’t hate you.”
    ---No, you’d like to think you don't hate me, but you do. The spirit of your comments made it clear. But that's acceptable as long as you can be civilized about it.

    3) “Actually, you mention that the “concept will be spreading HATE” in the above quote… Now, you see hate everywhere, it seems….”
    ---a) “It seems” what? b) Yes, the concept will be spreading hate. This is the means of influence, in order to accomplish its goals of a no religion no government planet. c) Then you put the cherry on top: “Now, you see hate everywhere”! Just hilarious! :) I see hate everywhere?? I am talking about the effects of the process in achieving the VP. Oh nevermind…

    4) “But you got one thing right, I do have a problem with people with whom a healthy discussion is impossible.”
    a) Then, you have a problem with yourself.
    b) Anyone will tell you, that in our discussion you are the one who is not promoting a healthy discussion.
    c)And anyone who is honest will tell you that all my comments -whether they agree with all their aspects or not- are and promote a “healthy discussion”.
    So please think rather than spasmadically reacting. It will serve you and all better. Your young, hopefully you’ll learn. I am patient. I understand.
    God bless you.

  • Achems Razor

    Alex: My question was...Nobody mentions Reincarnation! Your smug answer was, your quote...-if they are knowledgable they won't.., unquote. In essence you are saying the following religions and numbers of people that believe in Reincarnation are not knowledgeable! As follows= *Buddhism 360 million. *Bon 100.000. Cao Dai 6 million. *Druze 500.000. * Eckankar 500.000. *Hare Krishna 1 million. *Hinduism 900 million. *Jainism 4 million. *New Age 5 million. *Sikhism 23 million. *Wicca 3 million...I rest my case!

  • Alex

    Achem's razor,
    You cut yourself again. When will it stop?
    I said: "if they're knowledgable they won't" in light OF YOUR CONTEXT! You wrote:
    "Nobody mentions Reincarnation! That was the prime message in the Bible until in 553 A.D. the belief in reincarnation was outlawed at the second Synad council of Constantinople under the influence of the Emperor Justinian. An acceptance of reincarnation took away the power of the Heaven and Hell mob to frighten and empower people. So reincarnation was taken out of the Bible!"
    ---So, nobody who is knowledgeable of the synod of Constantinople would claim that reincarnation was taken out of the Bible.
    Having said that now, I will comment on your following words as if they were in different context:
    "In essence you are saying the following religions and numbers of people that believe in Reincarnation are not knowledgeable!" (and list the millions)
    --- Well, boldly put, in my opinion -in THIS NEW CONTEXT- they are not knowledgeable in their cosmic view point! They can of course claim the same about Christianity. And that's fine too! No problem. What I'm getting at Razor is that claiming that millions are not knowledgeable should not be something so surprising, since all sides do it! I mean ALL! Yet, on our topic here, either there is or there isn't reincarnation. It goes to say, that one of the two contradicting proponents is not knowledgeable of the reality of that issue and the other is. So being honest in saying "they" are not knowledgeable is o.k. since that is exactly what they are both thinking.
    So Razor, all is well.
    God bless you!

  • Alex

    Achem's razor,
    Friendly advice:
    if you remove your prejudice towards me (maybe hate towards my faith as well), you will be more accurate in dealing with my comments. Then you can... "rest your case" on safer grounds, otherwise, you'll be "resting" while your "case" is still open and is actually exposing your hastiness and more...
    Be wise my friend.
    May God give you His increase.

  • Achems Razor

    Alex: I have no prejudice towards you. And I do not hate your religion. It seems that you have persecution complex! Take care.

  • WTC7

    Dear Alex,

    If you don't have an answer to some of the questions you are asked, at least don't say that the church was not given instructions on what to say about it, you discredit yourself and your church that way. Just say you don't know or give an answer you feel is right.

    I.

    1. a) I don't think that I disrespect you by asking a question, which you yourself (in your following sentence) describe as a legitimate one.

    b) Thank you for acknowledging its legitimacy, but the question was not why god is using divine servants, such as angels, the question was why he needed the doors of Israelites to be painted. He should KNOW whom to kill and whom not.

    c) I'm stating a (Biblical) fact that the god of Moses had killed thousands of innocent children, which in my opinion is disgusting. Anybody who'd say nowadays that there could be a good reason for killing thousands of children would be sent to a psychiatry, it is not my disrespect for beliefs of others. And if god has a hidden agenda, than he's no better than the one he expelled from his kingdom. Alex, what he did was a genocide.

    2. a) If my god asked me to kill my own child, and only to prove that I loved "his highness" more, I'd say to him that he is a sicko.

    b) If "God “knows” about a man’s heart" as you say, why would he need testing his faith? Alex, your explanation of that obvious contradiction is not clear.

    Thank you, it is good that the "rest of inner realities" of the above kind are "too sacred for any thread" and that you didn't expose them here.

    3. a) I have no idea why do you consider your statement "Yes, you just can’t get it." an argument?

    b) You say "Christian religions not the Christian Church". Which is THE Christian Church, Alex, if there are several Christian religions? And WHY so many Christian religions? Obviously, not even Christians among themselves can agree on the ONE Christian teaching, inspired by ONE god. So why should I, Alex?

    4. a) Enlighten me, Alex, which are the "so called "Christian" religions, and which are the "some Christian honest mistakes (!!!!!!!!)" that made me who I am? Because you don't explain it at all.

    b) "Atheistic brainwashing", Alex, is to a great extent a reaction to the Christian brainwashing.

    5. a) I do appreciate your agreement on this point. If your Protestant church is devoid of Saints, then I must pay my respect to it on that subject. I absolutely agree that the saints are the replacement for the pagan gods.

    b) It's alright if you say that the Biblical Christianity is monotheistic, I have no specific arguments against it.

    6. a) A simple reality check for you: Zeitgeist is not my religion. I'm not devoted to it with all my heart and mind as you are to your church. My answers to you on Zeitgeist threads may be seen as an imposition to you, by you, I cannot deny that, but beware when stating that "anyone" who reads it can see it as such. That you don't know, as you don't know many of the things you claim all around this site - you are just a parrot who repeats what his church has told him, and if the church has not taken a position on something in the Bible (like the killing of children by the god of Moses) you have nothing to say about it.

    7. a) Yes, I was implying you, and your comments, are void of any substance (I called them boring, but I was wrong, because they are in a way very amusing). And if you mention any other part of Zeitgeist, then I must have missed it. Please, show them to me.

    b) I agree, Zeitgeist is an intriguing and very interesting documentary, all its parts, and it is no surprise that people (like yourself) feel like commenting on it, any part of it.

    c) Point taken, it's true. The reason for that is that your long point-by-point "arguments" are very frustrating, so I decided to do exactly the same in defiance to you (that's what you are causing with your rigid stance - defiance - not a healthy argument) as I realized that no other topic of the Zeitgeist (much more important topics than religion) would come to prominence until your rambling over your view of religion is over.

    II.

    1. At this point, I don't even want to comment on your long defense of your saying one thing on June 20 2009, and then, on August 17 2009 (both on Zeitgeist Addendum), saying the exactly opposite of what you argued for previously. The threads are there, anyone who wants to read them can do that and draw their own conclusions.

    2. You are putting a lot of effort in convincing me that I hate you :-). I don't know why. However, somehow you omitted in your reply to copy-paste the important part of the following I wrote:

    "But since you mentioned it (hate), let me remind you that people see in others their own reflection".

    I wonder, Alex, why would you omit the most important part of that statement, since you copy-pasted almost everything else??? Are you trying to deny hate in your heart? Psychology would say that you are. I don't know what your church says about it.

    3. a) & b) Here again you confirm that the concept (the Venus Project) would be spreading hate (contrary to your long argument under II. point 1), but this time you identify it as "the means of influence, in order to accomplish its goals of a no religion no government planet."

    c) You just repeat here what you have already said under point a) & b) that I said you see hate everywhere. But regardless of the fact that under c) you point to the same argument as under a) & b), of course, you conclude your repetition with "Oh nevermind…" As if I didn't understand... something...??? What exactly have I not understood since I haven't even responded to it???

    4. a) Here you are absolutely right, I have a problem with myself since I have a problem with people like you. I admitted that in my previous post, so that's not your argument - it's mine.

    b) "Anyone" is very wide, it may mean just everybody in the world, but through reading the discussions you had with quite a few people, who by the way have shredded your quasi-arguments to nothing, I can only conclude that your "anyone" would actually be a very few people.

    c) Claiming that "anyone who is honest" (does that include only Protestant zealots like you?) would tell me that your discussion is healthy "whether they agree with all their aspects or not" is really arrogant for someone who claims he's a humble Christian.

    By the way, kiddo, (I'm older than you think, my youth is just another wrong assumption of yours), I had already tried to find the truth in the Christian church. It was an utter disappointment.

    In the end, dear Alex, we are all blessed by the living forces of the Universe all the time, every single moment of our lives, your arrogance in assuming the right to bless anybody in (any) god's name is insulting - to me and to your god, since you don't even know if your god would empower you with such blessing (I'm sure you have not got the green light from your church to dispense of blessings so easily.). So don't do it, it's heresy.

    Be well.

  • Alex

    Vlatco hi! If this comment show up twice (to WTC7), please take off the first one (the one without this paragraph). I sent one from wireless, but there was a problem, so it might not be sent; most likely from what I saw. If it does I'll let you know. Thanks.

    WTC7,
    You write:
    1) “If you don’t have an answer to some of the questions you are asked, at least don’t say that the church was not given instructions on what to say about it, you discredit yourself and your church that way.”
    ---WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?? This is fact!! What am I suppose to do?? Is it possible that you think that Christians should have all the answers to everything concerning our God…? I hope this is not the case.
    2) “Just say you don’t know or give an answer you feel is right.”
    ---I did both! I told you I don’t know (because the Bible doesn’t say anything about it), and I gave you my view. Are you paying any attention to what I write? Or is it that you can’t -in fact- handle a legitimate answer (as I hoped you would)?

    3) “I don’t think that I disrespect you by asking a question, which you yourself (in your following sentence) describe as a legitimate one.”
    ---Who said such a thing? Why can’t you just be honest or at least be quite about it rather then trying to cover it up? You wrote:
    “Without getting into a discussion of how disgusting that god is, I’m simply wondering why would an almighty and omnipotent god need such assistance?” (you are talking about God) And I said:
    “a) Again we see your hate, and disrespect to someone else’s God/belief.”
    I said “disrespect to someone else’s God/belief”, that is, to my God/belief, not to me personally (although you -how’s your memory- clearly expressed for me elsewhere!)! So why do you make it sound like I said you disrespect me by merely asking me a question?? Either you don’t know simple English or you are being deceptive or maybe just frivolous. I’m just calling it like I see it.

    4) “Thank you for acknowledging its legitimacy, but the question was not why god is using divine servants, such as angels, the question was why he needed the doors of Israelites to be painted. He should KNOW whom to kill and whom not.”
    ---Well, you wrote:
    “I’m simply wondering why would an almighty and omnipotent god need such assistance?”
    How am I suppose to know that you meant “why he needed the doors of Israelites to be painted” when referring to “assistance”, than to angels? It would benefit both of us if you are more careful and precise in your question in order to not waste my time, our time. Anyway… my answer to this new question is:
    In such type of events in The Old Testament there is always a symbolic encoded teaching intended for The New Testament believers to “decode” and be edified by as to acknowledge His hidden wisdom behind events. So as Barnes says: “It was a representation of the offering of the life (since a lamb was sacrificed I add), substituted for that of the firstborn in each house, as an expiatory and vicarious sacrifice.” If you read the account of the event, indeed, there are so many words that have hidden spiritual gestures, that is would probably need more than 10 pages to “decode”, elaborate! Regarding the Israelites painting their “doors” on their own, it prophetically symbolizes that man himself must accept Christ’s sacrifice by his own free will, God will not do it for him. God just says what’s going to happen and man has to decide what to do about it. The blood had to be placed on the right and left door posts as well as on the top, but not on the bottom. This symbolizes that The Blood of The Lamb (Christ) is not to be stepped on, trample over, by those who are to be saved by Him. Note the following from Scripture (when God says “I” He means through His angel, since He is The One sending him):
    Exo 12:12- 14 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment (Judgement! Hence they were guilty. Like it or not, you are in no position to judge God’s judgement.): I am the LORD. 13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt. 14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial (all this ritual was to be a memorial to them as well as a teaching to the NT believers as Paul says.); and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever. (What the ritual symbolizes is far greater than the event it self, since it speaks of the salvation of humanity through Christ.)
    The above is a small sample of what the complete answer is about.

    5) “I’m stating a (Biblical) fact that the god of Moses had killed thousands of innocent children, which in my opinion is disgusting. Anybody who’d say nowadays that there could be a good reason for killing thousands of children would be sent to a psychiatry, it is not my disrespect for beliefs of others. And if god has a hidden agenda, than he’s no better than the one he expelled from his kingdom. Alex, what he did was a genocide.”
    ---a) True, this may happen “nowadays” as you say, especially in the midst of such misconception regarding The God of The Bible, but not back then. God’s supernatural presence was not to be mocked nor His people be defiled by surrounding nations. The Pharaoh (and the surrounding nations at other times) a) knew about Him b) was warned c) were punished if they didn’t go along. Simple math. Note also, that death is not something that makes God cry like it does humans. He is the Creator of life and death and to Him death is just a line a person crosses; God is just in what He will do with him that passes that line (bring to mind that Christ preached to the dead people’s souls when He visited Hades, before He resurrected), something that people don’t want to realize, but His points to those who remain on earth was made clear.
    b) Note that God’s judgement was not on the first-born children but on the Pharaoh! He is punished along with the parents of his land (through all first-born). The Egyptians were not innocent:
    Exodus 3:7 And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;
    Take note of the fact that those first-born did not go to hell. In Scripture children are in a class of their own due to their innocence.
    c) For the record, although it could have been, this was not genocide. Only the first born of the Egyptians was killed.
    d) God -Biblically speaking- in His wisdom, does have a hidden agenda. Why must a hidden agenda be a bad one? Just ridiculous.

    6) “I have no idea why do you consider your statement “Yes, you just can’t get it.” an argument?”
    ---I on the other hand “have no idea” why you consider it an argument??? It’s just an observation/ascertainment… actually agreeing with YOU! According to your words, you couldn’t make sense of God’s love and justice as portrayed in The Bible, so I agreed that you have a problem grasping it, although I don’t consider it something too deep to grasp, so in amazement and disappointment I said: Yes (that is, unforunately), you just can’t get it.

    7) “You say “Christian religions not the Christian Church”. Which is THE Christian Church, Alex, if there are several Christian religions?”
    ---Are you doing it on purpose? Didn’t you read my words in the beginning of that comment? I said:
    “(When I say Church, I am not talking about the Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, churches, but the One Church God sees, composed of all those who He considers -according to Scripture- “Church type” we can say.) having said that, you write….”
    So, I’ll say it again, in different terms. God’s Church does not have “a billboard”, but if it did it would probably read something like “Biblical Christianity”. There are Biblical Christians in every denomination of Christian religions standing against what has been added to Christianity account by Popes, priests, bishops, false teachers in general (some false teachings from Catholic and Orthodox religion according to the Bible are: infant baptism, mediation of dead “saints” unto God, Mary as an intercessor unto God, priesthood[!], transformation of the wine and bread into real blood and body, the Ever-virgin Mary, confession to a priesthood and I definitely will add Calvinism [1# heresy in the Protestant world], receiving of The Spirit as a second experience, etc.)
    So THE Christian Church is one composed of all born-again Christians who live a life of sanctification, one taught in The Bible. It has nothing to do with buildings nor with man’s traditions contrary to Biblical teaching. Personally, I attend an Evangellical church. I am not an Evangelical since I don’t want to be, but most importantly because I disagree with some of their views. They are though my brothers in Christ in God’s Eyes as well as in mine (those who are).

    8) “And WHY so many Christian religions?”
    ---Because of stubbornness, lack of obedience and fear of God, previous added man’s religious traditions, lack of reading the Bible. This from man’s part. But also because Christians from the beginning were and are the main enemy of the demonic forces which have done so much to defile God’s will in man’s eyes. God allows this, in order for Christians to learn from what they sow. -If you don’t believe in the existence of the devil, I know this may sound like a joke to you, but, this is my brief Christian answer.

    9) “Obviously, not even Christians among themselves can agree on the ONE Christian teaching, inspired by ONE god. So why should I, Alex?””
    ---a) I see how you see it, but that is not how things actually are. Although they don’t agree usually on secondary matters, born-again Christians agree on many core issues of Biblical Christianity. Most -outside of Christianity- don’t know this. Some of those core issues are: God’s Person, His Salvific work, His Son’s sacrifice and resurrection, heaven and hell, Christ being the only mediator to God according to all of Scripture, need for prayer and fasting, the necessity of baptism and Holy Communion, 2nd coming of Christ, Judgement Day, etc. It is the secondary issues that usually divide them.
    b) WTC7 you will stand alone one Day before your Maker, this is why in this life God can lead you to His truths in Scripture. If your heart is at a “place” of humility where He guide you to His truths, yes many slacking Christians will disagree with you, but many others will agree with you. When He leads you to all the above core issues, He can lead you to know His truth on those secondary ones as well if you are really interested in them. The point is, you don’t have to “agree” with any local church on everything. You are called, as all others, to agree with Him, not with a church of any kind! If all do this, the Church will unite in truth. Your relationship with The God of The Bible is requested to firstly be a personal one, and secondly a “church body relationship with God”. These should never contradict each other, but they do, and Satan laughs.

    10) “Enlighten me, Alex, which are the “so called “Christian” religions, and which are the “some Christian honest mistakes (!!!!!!!!)” that made me who I am? Because you don’t explain it at all.”
    ---Already answered the first part (again). First of all, I don’t have to explain everything I say especially when I think that most know what I’m referring to. Most of the people I talk to on these threads explain almost nothing (you being one of them/sorry). I give most in these discussions than all of you put together (!), in quantity (therefore time) and in quality (you’re probably going to disagree. Fine.) Now, I do give hints to it here and there. Some honest mistakes Christians make is saying to people things of their opinion and saying this is what Christianity teaches. Catholics for instance will proclaim that praying to saints is a Christian teaching, but it’s not. But, they are not lying when they say so, they are mistaken. Other funny ones, are saying that Adam and Eve “is simply a metaphor for single-celled organisms” or that “Jesus is The Big Bang” or that “Dinosaur bones are there to test out faith”. I mean -I hope you understand- these kind of remarks have nothing to do with Christianity, yet once a fanatic ignorant atheist gets a hold of them, it becomes so to speak “first page on the news”. 95% OF ATHEISTS KNOW NOTHING ABOUT CHRISTIANITY, THEY PARROT WHAT THEY READ IN ATHEIST LITERATURE AND SPECULATE ON THE REST.
    Christian’s laugh with their (atheists’ and Christians’) nonsense all the time.
    So, to a degree, your hatred towards Christianity is influenced by such mistakes and others.

    11) “Atheistic brainwashing”, Alex, is to a great extent a reaction to the Christian brainwashing.”
    ---True, it could be.

    12) “I do appreciate your agreement on this point. If your Protestant church is devoid of Saints, then I must pay my respect to it on that subject. I absolutely agree that the saints are the replacement for the pagan gods.”
    ---All protestant churches are devoid of the “mediation of saints” and the above I mentioned, not just mine.

    13) “A simple reality check for you: Zeitgeist is not my religion. I’m not devoted to it with all my heart and mind as you are to your church.”
    ---I am a Biblical Christian, I am not devoted to any Church with “all my heart and mind”. I am devoted only to God and His will; His Church worldwide is my spiritual family.

    14) “My answers to you on Zeitgeist threads may be seen as an imposition to you, by you, I cannot deny that, but beware when stating that “anyone” who reads it can see it as such. That you don’t know, as you don’t know many of the things you claim all around this site – you are just a parrot who repeats what his church has told him, and if the church has not taken a position on something in the Bible (like the killing of children by the god of Moses) you have nothing to say about it.”
    ---a) What did I claim that was wrong? This just “smoke” to impress the readers.
    b) the church has told me nothing of the things I write on these threads.
    c) I “parrot” nothing accept the simple truth. Glad to do that! Parroting in itself is very useful when repeating what others have shown to be true. So, prove that what -as you say- I parrot is wrong.
    d) In your frivolousness you lie, hoping probably that most have not read my comments. You write:
    “if the church has not taken a position on something in the Bible (like the killing of children by the god of Moses) you have nothing to say about it.”
    *Why don’t you show everybody where do I say that Christians don’t have Biblical answer regarding the killing of the first-born of the Egyptians? You’re too much! :)

    What a miserable little piece of work you are!
    a stupid fundamentalist.

    15). “Yes, I was implying you, and your comments, are void of any substance (I called them boring, but I was wrong, because they are in a way very amusing). And if you mention any other part of Zeitgeist, then I must have missed it. Please, show them to me.”
    ---a) My comments “are void of any substance”? Well, you got me there! All I can say to that stomper is… I love you too :) (Are you at least aware people are reading your comments? Or you just don’t care?)
    b) No, you should put my name in “find” and see what I say on Zeitgeist. Do your homework. Why should I do it for you?? This is the last time, one is on Addendum June 20th, at 04:47 and elsewhere… If you’re interested, go find them, if not, why should you waste my time? So “please” go find them.

    16) “…so I decided to do exactly the same in defiance to you (that’s what you are causing with your rigid stance – defiance – not a healthy argument) as I realized that no other topic of the Zeitgeist (much more important topics than religion) would come to prominence until your rambling over your view of religion is over.”
    ---a) “Defiance” hey? That’s probably because I expose all your comments to be false to a small or large degree.
    b) If you want me to stop writing on religion, then stop commenting on it.

    17) “At this point, I don’t even want to comment on your long defense of your saying one thing on June 20 2009, and then, on August 17 2009 (both on Zeitgeist Addendum), saying the exactly opposite of what you argued for previously. The threads are there, anyone who wants to read them can do that and draw their own conclusions.”
    ---a) True, they are there.
    b) “At this point” I don’t really care.

    18) “You are putting a lot of effort in convincing me that I hate you . I don’t know why.”
    ---Oh how sincere… Let me refresh your memory. You said about me on Zeitgeist Refuted on August 14th, 2009 at 20:28, that I am a “stupid fundamentalist” but also directly to me: “What a miserable little piece of work you are!” And this after I gave so much time to answering you. You just -in trembling- dumped in the trash!

    19) “ However, somehow you omitted in your reply to copy-paste the important part of the following I wrote:
    “But since you mentioned it (hate), let me remind you that people see in others their own reflection”.
    ---I didn’t mention it because this coming from you, just deserves a scorn/disdain and a “turning of the back”.
    20) “I wonder, Alex, why would you omit the most important part of that statement, since you copy-pasted almost everything else??? Are you trying to deny hate in your heart? Psychology would say that you are. I don’t know what your church says about it.”
    ---Ooops you got me pal! I’m busted! :)

    21) The rest of what you wrote was a waste of time. Please “anyone” read what I said and what he says (again)! I can’t help you on that. I give up.
    I’ll just comment on this:
    “Claiming that “anyone who is honest” (does that include only Protestant zealots like you?) would tell me that your discussion is healthy “whether they agree with all their aspects or not” is really arrogant for someone who claims he’s a humble Christian.”
    ---No, it’s just the truth. How humble I am, well you’re allowed your opinion, as everybody else is.

    21) “By the way, kiddo, (I’m older than you think, my youth is just another wrong assumption of yours), I had already tried to find the truth in the Christian church. It was an utter disappointment.”
    ---Well, you could have fooled me! BUT YOU DIDN’T. I DON’T BELIEVE YOU.

    22) This last one is another pearl of the many:
    “In the end, dear Alex, we are all blessed by the living forces of the universe all the time, every single moment of our lives, your arrogance in assuming the right to bless anybody in (any) god’s name is insulting – to me and to your god, since you don’t even know if your god would empower you with such blessing (I’m sure you have not got the green light from your church to dispense of blessings so easily.). So don’t do it, it’s heresy.”
    ---a) Spoken like a true heretic! The “right to bless anybody”?? Oh you’re just tired buddy. When I say “God bless you!” this (in english!!!!!!!!!!) means “God bless you!” not “I bless you in The Name of God!”
    A waste of time.
    b) When I say “God bless you!” I really mean it, otherwise I’d be sinning by using His Title. By it, I am expressing my desire for God to bless you, because I know this is what you need, but don’t know it.

    WTC7, Indeed it is humility on my part to be discussing with you, as is proven. I insist, anybody will agree!

    Achem’s razor,
    I doubt it from how you sound, but I must say, it’s good to hear it anyway!
    God bless you!

  • Jeff D.

    Alex,
    do you find propaganda or any invalid assumptions in Agnosticism? Please note that I am not displaying any form of hatred towards you in this message, so lets keep it friendly.

  • WTC7

    Agapimene mou Alexaki,

    Just for the record, my first post written to you (in ZG refuted) was a sincere offering of my own views. I was respectful towards your beliefs, while at the same time attempting to show you that I believed that we can only follow our intuition when it comes to what our hearts tell us is true, but that none of us can prove our claims with hard evidence.

    Without exaggeration, I was shocked with your aggressive response, which perverted every word I had said. Your response made me realize that you are so consumed in your own greatness and self proclaimed exclusive right to righteousness and that you, sadly, listen only to yourself.

    You, typically for people with your kind of problem, twist the meanings of what is said making out of it what you want it to be, so that you can reach the pathological pleasure in your feeling of victory. But, dear Alex, the victory exists only in your head.

    That was just for the record as to your saying that you saw from my threads how much I hated you.

    Still, once I saw what I can expect from you, you gave me lots of fun. It was worth every moment of my and my friends' time reading your posts.

    Na se kalla paidi mou... elpizo oti o theos tha se sothei mia mera ...

    P.S. It's not my English that is at fault, it's your head, filarako mou :-)

  • gordon

    The person who's "always right" is usually always wrong.
    He who never listens to another's view , never learns....
    old wisdom.

  • Alex

    WTC7, I enjoyed you "Greek" (if it is you who has written it and not one of your pals/maybe they're on the thread as well...), it was refreshing, so try to enjoy mine: To mialo sou kai mia lira! :)
    You can try to save your image, but the facts are always there for anyone to read and "see" and relize who twists what.
    That's all!
    Ps. O Theos na se evlogisi kata panta... egeros!

  • Alex

    Gordon hi!
    You write:
    “The person who’s “always right” is usually always wrong.”
    This is unfair and prejudice; bad mathematics to say the least.

    “He who never listens to another’s view , never learns….”
    This though is accurate. We agree.

    Jeff D.
    I’ll start with your last statement. You write:
    “Please note that I am not displaying any form of hatred towards you in this message, so lets keep it friendly.”
    ---Jeff, I don’t consider it to be hate towards me if someone disagrees with me, or even if he openly says “Alex, you don’t know what you’re talking about!” This is COMPLETELY ACCEPTABLE in a discussion. I never gave any other impression; if I have please show me where. As we all know, "hatred" is expressed through "the sum" of particular statements and behaviours. So don’t worry about it. If though I have sounded a little “loud” (when exposing someone) in some cases, this is because I see “loud foolishness” being attempted to discriminate against the facts through trashing me. I have no problem with someone “loudly” exposing me if this is what must objectively be done, but I do have a problem with verbally trashing someone; most who do this, would not do this in a face to face contact with me, but they do attempt to “here in safety”.
    I agree with you 100% with keeping it friendly. I believe I am friendly to all (and as funny as it might sound, my prayers are with you), but in an appropriate wise manner, not frivolously, because people start to get the notion that they can freely trash sound arguments and even worse, do so at the expense of interested participators/readers/seekers.

    2) “do you find propaganda or any invalid assumptions in Agnosticism?”
    Well, there are forms/angles of agnosticism.
    But “agnosticism” being a Greek word meaning “without knowledge”, and applied to the metaphysical/supernatural, i.e. to the existence of God, angels, demons, the devil, afterlife, other “gods” etc. is to me -in the light of all evidence- an invalid stance towards a great part of reality/life, if one applies it in that manner. I’ll elaborate.
    Although I can agree with someone who sees himself as an “agnostic” in the literal sense of the word, when he deals with a particular aspect/s (thus, not in all aspects! Wish I can underline that.) of the supernatural (in that sense I can be an agnostic (being without knowledge), since I don’t know all the facts regarding my supernatural God and can simply say “I don’t know the truth about that particular aspect.”), I cannot agree though, but I find it totally absurd if someone chooses to name himself “agnostic” when indeed he does realizes the evidence for the “immaterial”, for the “transcendant reality”. Then he is -in denial- just lying. He’s then another fanatic “reactionist”.
    Agnosticism doesn’t say “there is no God”, but “I don’t know if there is one”. This is ok, until though evidence to the contrary shows up.
    Agnosticism’s invalid assumption is “we don’t have evidence in order to ‘know’!” It is invalid, because WE DO!
    In my opinion there are not many agnostics out there, but, atheists disguised as agnostics; they are way more. Especially in a religious environment, some atheists prefer to say they don’t know rather than that they don’t believe in God, in order not to scare religionists away, but lure them step by step, from agnosticism to atheism.
    I don’t find agnostics -as a school of thought- to have any propaganda motivating them. But again I say, there can be propaganda if they are “so called agnostics” that is, when in fact they are not, but are atheists.
    Generally speaking (detailed perspectives vary), one invalid assumption of an agnostic may be: “If I don’t see it, I don’t know if it is there”. Well, you don’t see gravity, but YOU DO KNOW it’s there from it’s effects. Therefore, based on that, we can say, that the fact alone (!) that you don’t see God, cannot to "you" as an agnostic mean He doesn’t exist. You can just honestly claim -in regards to invisibility- “I don’t know if an invisible Being exists.” BUT, if he attempts to search for the possibility of such an existence, by applying the “gravity rule”, (“I do not see the force, but I know it exists because I see the "effects” that it causes.) and seek to find “effects” of a possible invisible God (or divine being/s in general), then he WILL find evidence which will indicate to him, the existence of an invisible Creator. He would of course first have to ask: "What possible effects can be caused by a transcendent being (that I am searching the possible existence for)? With those I will start my quest/research. One is design not cause by man or nature. Is there such a thing?"
    One example of such an effect, is the great complexity of a cell, that theoretically is impossible to have come by, through any time scale molecular evolution can offer without negating itself. In this complexity, there are factors that exist that CANNOT show up unless there is an Intelligent designer behind it. This is a scientific fact, no matter the speculations that attempt to discredit it (all fail to do so, all the time).
    The following are from a book that I advise all to buy:
    “GOD’S UNDERTAKER, Has science buried God?” by John C, Lennox
    (page 134):
    “Commoner put’s it bluntly: ‘DNA did not create life; life created DNA.’
    Miller and Levine expand on this: ‘The largest stumbling block in bridging the gap between non-living and living still remains. All living cells are controlled by information stored in DNA, which is transcribed in RNA and then made into protein. This is a very complicated system and each of these three molecules requires the other two - either to put it together or to help it work. DNA, for example, carries information but cannot put that information to use, or even copy itself without the help of RNA and protein.’
    There seems to be an irreducible symbiosis here that simplistic models of origins cannot reflect. Another similar example is provided by Leslie Orgel of the Salk Institute for Biological studies: “There is no agreement on the extent to which metabolism could develop independently of a genetic material. In my opinion, there is no basis in known chemistry for the belief that long sequences of reactions can organize spontaneously - and every reason to believe they cannot. The problem of achieving sufficient specifity, whether in aqueous solution or on the surface of a mineral, is so severe that the chance of closing a cycle of reactions as complex as the reverse citric acid cycle, for example, is negligible.”
    The issue has alot more to offer but it's enough for now.
    So Jeff, from my prespective, an “agnostic” has many reasons “to know”. If he doesn’t, he’s just ignorant of the evidence/ “effects”. Much much more can be said but you got the idea I trust.
    That’s all for now,
    May God give you His increase!

  • Alex

    WTC7 and everybody else,
    In my comment to WTC7, I accidentaly copy-pasted at the end of point 14 (before point 15) his following words:
    "What a miserable little piece of work you are!"
    "a stupid fundamentalist."
    Sorry about that. Didn't see it. These words are later quoted elsewhere (point 18).

  • WTC7

    It's ok, Alex, these were my words & appology is not needed as far as I'm concerned. Live well & I wish you success in your endevours. Big hug!

  • WTC7

    And.... I'm not a "he", I'm a "she" :-). Live long and prosper :-)

  • WTC7

    And.... I'm a "she", not a "he"... :-)

  • Alex

    WTC7,
    A BIG HUG TO YOU TOO! NO HARD FEELINGS!
    MAY GOD BLESS YOU ABUNDANTLY, ESPECIALLY BY REVEALING TO YOU HIS LOVE FOR YOUR PRECIOUS ETERNAL SOUL! MY PRAYER IS FOR YOU! AND IF I CAN EVER BE OF ANY HELP TO YOU, GET MY EMAIL FROM VLATCO. USE IT ANYTIME, BUT WISELY.
    IN CHRIST,
    ALEX

  • Jon M. Jacobs

    Zeitgeist ... Ah yes that infamous movie that suggests that God is a human invention, an invention based on observable phenomena, in short god is a simple way to tell a midly complex set of circumstances regarding life on earth. As if god were a figure used to control people, allowing great profit to the insiders at the expense of the unclean masses. Just like capitalism.

    In the second part the movie has the audacity to suggest that the terrorist acts were an inside job! Egad! Saints in heaven! Our very heads would explode ... As if America could ever fall prey to fascist ideals like Nazi Germany did following the Reichstag fire in Berlin in the winter of 1933.

    The last section of this movie is a crazy conspiracy that the monetary system is controled by the wealthy, now that's just insane. The wealthy are caring gentle people who are looking after us and care deeply about our travails and seek to ease our pain.

    yeah, it is dark but reality is not pleasant. Do you take the reality pill or the fantasy pill?

    Seriously, Zeitgeist is a nice little doc, it gives an alternative view and I concurr. However the idea that we can easily throw off the shackles of this debt society and romp in the clover is a bit much. I suggest that we need a far more profound paradigm shift in consciousness. Not a small insignificant shift like Paganism to Christianity, but a deeper change. A shift from the current Quantitative(consumption, money, accumulation) paradigm to paradigm based on QUALITY. We need to shift to a Qualitative paradigm(skill, intelligence, and quality ... duh ).

  • Jeff D.

    Alex, I asked you a question and you gave me a short story...You're trying too hard brother...I suggest that you combine all your messages on this thread and site to make a 400+ page book. And whether you are ending most comments using phrases such as "May god give you his increase." for your own personal humor or sincere blessings, I don't need them. Thanks

    Jon Jacobs,
    You would like to see "A shift from the current Quantitative(consumption, money, accumulation) paradigm to paradigm based on QUALITY. We need to shift to a Qualitative paradigm(skill, intelligence, and quality)."

    Well, if you watched Zeitgeist: Addendum, then you just saw that. That is exactly the type of shift that this movie advocates...The Venus Project is a social revolution that is such a drastic change that most people choose to ignore it because they think it is beyond their comprehension...watch the video again and it explains how people in a Resource Based Economy live their life to gain QUALITY knowledge, SKILLS, and INTELLIGENCE...if that is what you call for then here it is!

  • Alex

    Jeff D. hi!
    Look at the way people answer...! Am I the only one amazed? If so, I wonder why...
    You're complaining because I put in time to give you a pretty much rounded answer??? Go figure! And no, I'm not trying hard at all!! It's nothing for me.
    God bless you! (Always a sincere wish, whether you think you need it or not!)

  • Jeff D.

    good day, Alex.

  • Alex

    Amen, to that Jeff!

  • ana

    thank you for this website! this doc was excellent!

  • octopussy

    alex you bring new meaning to the term religious nutter. unhinged meta-magical nonsense, go find yourself some like minded idiots to talk to- this is a thread about a movie that exposes its watchers to some interesting new concepts regarding societal governance, addresses new ideals about living in a science based society, (which in case you havent checked is already upon us, by the way) and generally introduces some ways of thinking you may not be familiar with, your rantings about how god does/ doesnt like you anymore only add weight to the point made in the film that fixed beliefs systems are outdated and destroy debate.
    i firmly believe that it is a little tension goblin in the spring in my toaster who lives partly in this dimension and partly in another who decides to pop my toast up when it is done (if ive been bad he is tardy and burns my toast) but i dont bang on about him like i expect you to believe hes real, which he is of course and you cant prove he isnt so ner ner ner. my interpretation of the instruction manual of my toaster proves it as it says in paragraph 6 line 12,
    "....and lo, do not be sticking of metal objects into the slots of thy toaster for risk of electrical shock may be of occurrence"
    this means that the metal object has made the goblin angry and the shock is a smiting for intruding into his realm -see, hes real, i proved it with circular logic and delusion! what more proof do you need, go on i dare you stick a knife in the toaster and then tell me he dont exist?!! how else did you suppose your toaster pops up the toast eh?
    i will now fill page after page of poor vlatkos site with mindless babble about the history of my goblin and how he came to be... etc etc etc. contiues ad infinitum.
    alex do you get my point. please say yes and dont convince yourself that ive been sent by the devil to test you or maybe i have ahhahhahhahhaaahhaaahhaaaaahahahahahaa,

  • Alex

    Octopussy
    ... :) ....

  • octojobby

    it is not wise to put anything apart from bread in toasters.

  • goose truth

    Mitch Graves is a disinformer as i hope you all can logically see i mean he is probably employed by the ELITES as one of those people who tries to disprove everything and to persuade everyone else that they shouldnt take in the info , he most likely didnt watch the things he is criticising other wise hed know he was lying to himself - he is probably mossad employed - name prolly isnt Mitch Graves -

  • Brian E

    I think that the level of passion generated by these films is reason enough to watch them. Watch and utilize your ability to evaluate what is, to you the reality. After all is said, debated and passed into history, the only thing we have in our life is the quest for knowledge. True to you may be false to me, vice-versa. I have read the posted comments and I respect the right of each to post their comment.

  • Tell

    just my luck...i have been trying to play this doc for the past 2 weeks, all i get is a black screen. i hit play...black. i thought maybe if i just tried every couple days it would work because of some sorta fluke...but noooooooooo...just black, no matter what. im glad all of you above me were able to watch :\

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    If you see the player than there shouldn't be any problem. If when you hit the play button you see black screen, than hit pause and play again.

  • illusion

    Greetings,

    Im glad I happened upon this website and this doc in particular. I guess eventually the truth finds you and not the other way around. I agree w/ the doc for the most part and it's very informative and puts the economic system in laymen terms so people like me can better grasp it. Any good hearted idea at this point is better than the current situation we're in.

    Now to the meat of the matter. It seems that this doc is surrounded around The Venus Project. Im all for it and the man did say it's not perfect. But where I disagree is with the idea that because we change the monetary system to a resource base system it will eradicate crime and peoples devious ways of thinking. I tend to think they will just replace money with resources and hoard that and use that as a means of control. We will need some laws, and ways of enforcing them. Which to me is starting to sound a lot like systems we have in place today. I've never believed in the political system. Its all a big farce. Different parties and what not, they're all a part of the same disease filled pork animal. Thats why I've never voted. Waste of time. Well I did vote once for Obama. I wanted to see if they would really put a blackman in power in my lifetime. But thats neither here nor there in the greater scheme of things. Also, when we have technology doing all our work for us what are we truly left to do?

    I also think it's a lil bit naive to think that "The Powers That Be" is allowing websites and docs like this to go on without some alterior motive in mind. Im pretty sure Im probably flagged for being and posting on this website or others like it. If the world is as the doc states why would the PTB allow websites and docs like these to thrive where it clearly exposes them. Shouldnt they send in a "Website Hitman" and shut it down or else? While on the subject, that gentleman in the doc who said he was an economic hitman really troubled me. He talks so matter of fact about what he did, like he has no conscience. This is the devil indeed. He basically killed these leaders and enslaved these countries although he did not physically pull the trigger.

    This is Greed. Greed on an Astronomical scale. when you have a small percentage controlling the worlds wealth and then systematically everyday without end trying to totally enslave the human race this is unimaginable in my mind. With no conscience or regard for others but self. Can anyone truly answer this question? What is their end game? Say their plan has come to it's full fruition (which in our current state doesnt seem too far off) what then? they've totally enslaved the human race and there is nothing left to enslave what then for them? I dont understand. Its like you're playing monopoly and you buy up all the property, ok you won the game what then. In other words some of these Elitists wont see or experience the end game in their lifetime but yet and still work to get it done. Someone please clarify this for me. It's like being greedy just to be greedy.

    While movements like this is good how are we to make change to stop this beast. The system is so huge and deeply entrenched in soceity for that every attempt that is made to move forward they would be 10 steps ahead and have the power and resources to shut it down. I guess their power is based in the saying "You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time." I guess they focus on the "You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time" part and movements like this focus on the "but you cannot fool all the people all the time". Which if this is true how are you to get up enough power and momentum to even start to make a dent when they will always have some people(in my opinion a good majority) of the masses fooled? Or it may be time, as Mario Savio put it to "throw yourselves on the gears..."

    Peace

  • Hero

    Look at the zeitgeist movement website under philosophy! The only thing zeitgeist is against is the mass manipulation of the people.

    I'm sorry but you blatenly tell me that you are not manipulating me into joining the Zeitgeist movement yet, by saying this you want me to join the zeitgeist movement. If you truly believe that people should figure zeitgeist out for them selves then there should be a single document explaining what it is, and nothing else. Don't fill me with this propaganda Bull sh!t, if i want to believe it i will. Zeitgeist is extremely pessimistic, and basically states that everything is sh!tty right now. But Why is nothing good? and whos to say that there wont be any downside to this movement. The world is learning as it goes, i think that the mass knowledge we have today is far superior to any individuals ideas themselves.

  • SsickPie

    This is made to persuade people to join this crazy cult that´s behind the 2 films. Easy fed, and it also tastes good... But ppl, try and stop and think a bit... There´s alot of facts inthere and things worth thinking about, but that doesn´t make the fiction true. And yes, there is alooot of fiction. Open your eyes and you will see it too.

  • fer

    SsikPie
    be more specific. what fiction?
    and why on earth do you call the Zeitgeist Movement a cult?
    TZM is only the activist arm of the Venus Project,
    which mind you, is a PROPOSED SOLUTION to the decomposing society we have today.
    No one says its the best solution, its only a far more better
    way of living than today.
    Please enlighten us with your solution for world hunger, poverty, crime, disease, enslavement, stripping of liberties,
    war, mass murder, genocides, etc etc etc

  • Ssickpie

    fer... The whole first movie is based on fiction and speculation!!

    Allow me to quote the very first comment on this film:

    "Zeitgeist (original) has been so thoroughly disproved that no thinking person will bother with this one. Not only were there innumerable flat out lies in the 1st, but the author was confronted with a number of them and double talked like the sleaziest of politicians. Do yourself a favor before wasting any time on this silly woman’s foolish ideas; go and watch the specific answers to the host of lies and fabrications with which she filled up the 1st one. There are entire websites devoted to documents and quotes disproving most of her inane rantings. She is trying to start a cult and get rich off the gullible."

    Mitch Graves

    Because i distance myself from this nonsense that obiously is bogus, do I make myself responsible to find the solution to the list of problems you lined up (which I´m sure is missing some)?
    At last, The Venus Project is a dream, Utopia if you will. No such society would ever be able to exist due to human beings easily corruptable nature.

  • fer

    HE, Peter Joseph, the autor, stated after that looking back retrospectively, the first part on Religion has been misunderstood. Religion is not a bad thing, PPL using that system for power are the problem.
    Religion is not forbidden or forsaken within the Venus project.
    Actually, I think when the human mind is freed from all the mundane issues like working the field etc, its when you going to see an explosion in the human intellect and religions will take more force than ever.

    So, this takes me to my next question:
    have you ever wondered why our food is poisoned (GMO), our air is unfit to breath, our liberties are being stripped, etc etc?
    The ruling class of the world is trying to get rid of the 5 billion excess population.

    And again , why is Venus an Utopia?
    There is no such thing as natural human behaviour.
    That is a lie, a fake concept to make you believe how you need to behave to be "normal".
    Coz if I were to take baby hitler and raise him in a krishna familiy, he would be singing Mantras on the street or eating vegan food ... you see what I mean?
    like that famous case of the russian girl that was raised by dogs ... well, she behaved like a dog, didnt talk but bark, etc.
    When you have a nurturing environment that spreads envy, greed, suspicion etc, THEN is when you get corruption.

    Human beings are not good nor bad by nature, they are FORMED that way by the environment.
    Gene research demonstrates that a caring surrounding will actually repress the expression of certain genes in the DNA chain ... changing our very nature.

    Jacque Freso, the engineer behind the Venus project,
    once did a very nice experiment:
    he taught a pig to push garbage into a hole, and whenever the pig did that, a box would open with food inside.
    Now, you had a pig that was cleaning the barn.
    Then he taught the pig to go under a low corridor in order to reach food, so, whenever the pig went through that small pass, his back would activate a shower and he would get bathed.
    It was the first clean pig in the world.

    And the same applies to human nature:
    you raise a baby in a decaying society, and that is what you would get, a corrupted person.

    Nurture him in a loving environment, where MONEY doesnt exists and economic future is guaranteed, and the power of the human mind will reach its true potential.

  • Ssickpie

    How can you misunderstand something which is false information? Yes, the whole of chapter 1 is false.

    Concerning the whole human thing. You are only looking at the case from one point of view. State all your claims to a group of psychologists each specified in one of the three perspectives; scientific point of view, social point of view and the point of view of humaniora. That would definetly start a great debate. Some would back you up, others would tare you apart. Who are right? Hard to say. Everyone has good arguments as to why their point of view is the right one, such as yourself.

    Do you seriously belive that there can be a society where everybody are equal? I don´t. At least this society wouldn´t last long. There will always be people who can be corrupted! And if not that would only be because of control. And who are to control the population when everyone are equal?? See the problem?

    I suggest you read George Orwell's '1984' or Aldous Huxleys 'Brave new world', or even read both. Might make you think a bit more about what TVP would lead to.

  • Ssickpie

    And yes.. Utopia, indeed!

  • Old Git Tom

    Ssickpie,
    equality of opportunity for all, not equality for all. I could quibble about some points, but this video covers the substantive issues bravely & well. The alternative culture it promotes will come about only thru revolution. That may be peaceful, but likely not. If we wish to survive, we have to face & do it. The stark choice is revolution & adaptation, or mass extinction. OGT

  • Al

    Old Git Tom

    I don´t think you understood what this doc tries to explain.
    This is not about fighting nor promoting a mass revolt, in order to make a huge change like this.

    It´s about taking away the power from the super rich elites from the ground up, by stop supporting them like we been doing it for centuries, and we are doing it every day by not using our credit cards, by not putting our money in their banks, by not paying taxes, by NOT supporting their system in every way possible, that´s how the change will arrive GRADUALLY.

  • Old Git Tom

    Al,
    with due respect, you do not grasp the depth of the crisis we are facing. There is no time left for GRADUALISM. Revolution is not an option we choose. It is forced upon us by the inexorable, grinding wheels of history. Time has run out.
    Passive resistance, withdrawal in some way from our present sick system, is likewise not an option. It was tried by the hippy movements in the 1960-70s. It didn't work. That's why despite all that pacifist idealism, we are deeper in the shit today.
    The minority that owns the banking system is operating a global protection racket. It is bleeding the world white, killing millions by poverty.
    "It's not about fighting"? Tell that to the slaughtered thousands in Iraq & Afghan. Their blood is on the cards already. No good washing you pacifist hands. We have to play the hand we are dealt, or lose all.

  • Leein

    I think is time to stop arguing with others. To undertsand reality, is only in how concious you are, with respect to world that each individual lives in. So one must consider, how should I weight these ideas and place value on them. I will not argue with an individuals ideas or philosophy of the world, but we only understand it as we must. So to all those who are in agreement of ideas that better mankind, there is little issue in engaging in a battle with the unlike minded. Like most ideas, opposition is an absolute. So, debating finer points is less then meaningless, and the productive changes you so much seek, is of example, and less convincing. When, what we know begins to fall away, we will have solid foundations with which to stand. Thus, regardless of opposite opinions, we can continue, too which the rest will fall by the waist side. Truth, it seems, is a reality known by each individual, and trying to reshape everyone else around us. For we know, this will not result in concensus. Think what you will, act like you will, but your own will it the truth that will face reality. (then again im crazy)

  • http://groups.google.com/group/aristomafia/files?pli=1 Old Git Tom

    Leein,
    reality is a consensus construct. We reach consensus or not by discussion & other social interactions. Those who believe the world can continue on its way as it has done for the past 100 years & more, are seriously out of touch with reality, IMHO.

    A vitally important but missing part of our present 'reality' is any intelligent strategy for long-term survival of humanity or human civilization - much the same thing, unless you fancy living in a post-apocalypse hole, banging rocks together.

    While not denying our individuality, the notion of humans as isolated consciousnesses locked in impenetrable solipsism is defeatist, depressing, & scientifically wrong. OGT

  • GTO

    this guys got to understand if you remove the money system your going to worsen the situation.

    in are current system theres 4 check and balance of power business, goverment, courts, military.
    if you remove the money system then you remove business(private sector).
    but the power of business doesnt go away the goverment will absorb it.
    when the goverment absorbs it the inbalance of power will make democracy and judiciary fail!
    then goverment and military will be one and the race who will be the next stalin will begin(stalin is one of the few people that gain power incheck by no one)..

    so what im saying the monetary system is part of the system that balance every democratic coutry. if you take it away you'll get a greater evil.. and that scenario is only the biggest sh*t of the many little sh*t that will happen if you tampered with are system so carelessly!

    people and the goverment is not that simple if it is then war should have been just a bad memory.

  • http://n/a Chris

    This is an excellent assessment. I would recommend anyone to watch it. Being a christian myself, I disagree with their denial of a deity. But besides this SLIGHT (and I mean that) mistake, they were totally right about almost everything. Their insight into religions, even christianity, makes me agree that we hold ourselves back. I would urge any person who affirms their position: If this movement is really about freedom, don't ostracize those who love their gods (or God, in my case). If there really is no God (or gods) the people will awake to this fact as they reach real oneness, as these zeitgeist folks say.

  • http://groups.google.com/group/aristomafia/files?pli=1 Old Git Tom

    GTO,
    "this guys got to understand if you remove the money system your going to worsen the situation.

    in are current system theres 4 check and balance of power business, goverment, courts, military. if you remove the money system then you remove business(private sector).
    but the power of business doesnt go away the goverment will absorb it.
    when the goverment absorbs it the inbalance of power will make democracy and judiciary fail! then goverment and military will be one and the race who will be the next stalin will begin(stalin is one of the few people that gain power incheck by no one).."

    Agree & disagree! Like most people (incl Zeitgeist?), you confuse two different things in 'the money system'. Money as a simple means of paying the bills is not the same as the trillions of abstract 'money' that circulates the world's financial markets. This dream money is probably 6 times more than the amount of real money. This we must destroy or it will destroy us.

    In the present system the 'checks & balances' have been largely subverted by the brute money power of Wall Street & The City of London banks. That is why Pres Obanana is such a useless, limp puppet.

    The military has already been absorbed by big business - the industrial-military complex. Wars, guns, oil, drugs, deaths of millions - it's all just money to the reptile bankers. OGT

  • GTO

    you need more than a trillion to power any western powerhouse.

    i agree with that. but i think your hitting some big branch. i think the federal reserve is the one your targeting

    i know about the big money system in the military. but its just a partner ship where military is just funding the project. what im saying is politician will be both military and a politician.. US will be a true military state

  • GTO

    just hitting

  • http://groups.google.com/group/aristomafia/files?pli=1 Old Git Tom

    GTO,
    The Fed Reserve & the Bank of England are the same basic banking scam. Global banking coordination is thru the BIS (Bank of International Settlement), Switzerland. Socio-political policy cooordination is thru the Bilderberg Group.

    Many/most bankers are of Jewish background, symapathetic to Zionism. They currently run Obanana & the Bush clan.

    Recently, Israeli army pirates boarded a ship in international waters. A US citizen was shot in the chest, then four times in the head. Obanana's Zionist handler Emanuel told him to keep quiet. This is how far the US nation & democracy have been subverted by the bankers.

    How close are you waiting for Wall Street & the military to get? Countless billions for the Iraq war & civilian aid have disappeared into the pants of civilian contractors. Halliburton charges $99 to wash a bag of GI laundry.

    The Homeland Security Bill allows a suspension of democracy & military rule by diktat.

    Meantime the media whores are whipping up the public for an invasion of Iran. How much US blood will flow to defeat Israel's last Middle East enemy? Does the US need this treacherous 'ally'? It attacked & tried to sink the USS Liberty with all hands back in 1967. Surviving sailors were ordered to keep their mouths shut!

    To defeat democracy, the bankers, led by Rothschilds, financed the 'Chinese economic miracle'. US & Euro jobs were exported there to undermine the democracies. Communist-capitalist China is shaping up to be the world's policeman.

    I stress, I am adamantly not anti-Jewish, but I detest Zionism as a form of fascism, as do many Jews. OGT

  • GTO

    yeah right! bank of england can get 50trillion in their national budget and their goverment cant even know where the money go.(if you didnt get it thats a sarcastic remark).
    only the federal reserve can do that..
    if you can actually nationalies it(personaly i think its near impossible) then your problem with the bank will be near solve.
    since there going to be someone that can check the banking sector and make an oddity report.

    i dont really want to hit the jews since that racism.

    the private sector im talking about is contain within the military since everything they do is top secret.
    its not in wall street man. wallstreet is free trade.
    you know area 51? the military only guard it..
    but the private sector is the one making high tech stuff there.
    halliburton really is a disgrace. im surprise no one file a case against ex vice-pres "dick" cheney.

    wow you really hate israel! are you an arab immigrant?

    no one can really stop the chinese growth just accept it and hope their goverment dont do anything stupid. oh and im half chinese(hong kong) so im not that critical about it.

    you are anti-jew man or atleast anti-jew establishment

  • http://groups.google.com/group/aristomafia/files?pli=1 Old Git Tom

    GTO,
    I'm probably beating my gums for nothing, but to repeat, I'm anti-Zionist, which is something different from anti-Jewish. Thank goodness, many Jews are ant-Zionist. And it is also racist to assume anti-Zionists must be Arab.

    The Jews who fought back against the Nazis in the WWII Warsaw ghetto were anti-Zionists. The Zionists were collaborating with the Nazis. In return for cherry-picking the rich & qualified Jews for export to Israel, they allowed the Nazis to rail the poor Jews to the extermination camps. Zionism is politically right-wing, a form of fascism.

    The Fed is the same racket as the Bank of England. A bunch of rich bankers has the monopoly to print paper money. This gives a lucky few total power over nations, & likely the most profitable banking business in the world - we can't be sure, becos bankers work largely in secret.

    Like so much these days, the Fed is illegal, against the US Constitution.

    I've no wish to halt China's economic progress. My point is that it didn't just, sorta, kinda, happen. It was the result of strategic banking planning (market forces my arse!); purpose, to clobber Western democracy. And I like Chinese food & poetry, & Jackie Chan, if that is not racist! OGT

  • GTO

    well alright if you say so..

    i think we already agree in everything except for the bank of england being disame or as powerful as FED...

  • http://www.tapanmohapatra.com tapan

    sir, i am a social worker & i have a NGO.please halp me for
    improve to our NGO.

  • http://groups.google.com/group/aristomafia/files?pli=1 Old Git Tom

    tapan,
    you need to give more info. What kind of NGO? What kind of help? OGT

  • silkop

    Old crackpot utopian ideas in new disguise. The purported "movement" builds on the wrong assumption that the world has "enough resources" to make everyone happy through technology, if only "everyone just got along" and agreed to divide wealth fairly (equally?) among the needy. Add into the mix a conspiracy theory that some evil "institutions" and "ruling elites" (who is that exactly and why not you?) are oppressing "the people".

  • http://groups.google.com/group/aristomafia/files?pli=1 Old Git Tom

    Silkop,

    "ruling elites" are the conclaves of Bilderberg & international banks, etc. These reptile nests ensure that the ample resources of the world (material, technical, scientific)are NOT used to solve global crises.

    If you reject above, you are left w/out an explanation of why we are in a terminal mess. If you say we are all guilty, that means no-one is guilty, &/or there is nothing we can do to fix a world gone insane with self-destruction.

    If you think the Zeitgeist 'utopia' or similar are not viable, your only alternative is to try to keep your nose above the rising sewage levels. Good luck.

    PS: is the Gulf of Mexico covered in oil yet? The catastrophe seems to have dropped out of the media. Not news any more? Ah, then I can stop worrying. OGT

  • Al

    Oh wow OGT

    That was incredibly accurate from a guy who doesnt believe in ZM,
    And yes, we are already living in a utopia, believing that hopefully things will change for the better but sadly the trends towards the opposite are clearer than ever.

    I guess the media has stop reporting the situation in the gulf simply to stop alarming us all, but that hole is sadly still spilling oil by the millions as we speak. Get ready for some long lasting oily beaches.

  • freakinggenius

    okay but this is hardly news.. money is a fiction yes and modern money systems are speculative, based on perpetual promise, interest and nothing real... it's annoying when people pass themselves off as revealing conspiracies when the conspiracy is an open secret.

  • http://groups.google.com/group/aristomafia/files?pli=1 Old Git Tom

    Al,

    right on; I get tired of trying to tell people just how bad things have got. The economic meltdown follows from the ecological rundown. The boys & girls at the top must know they have ruined the environment of the world. They can't go on any longer ripping it to pieces to make more useless money.

    So what is their plan? I don't think they have one, any more than a shark has a plan when he starts chewing his own entrails. Any ideas out there? OGT

  • Al

    Ideas?

    Im glad you asked, well yes absolutely.....Either we move in the ZM direction or towards any other system, first we need to stop supporting this obsolete medieval corrupt systems ( capitalism, communism, socialism and so forth)

    How?... by not throwing our money on to them anymore, by not paying taxes, by not paying abusive services like insurance, medical bills, by stop putting our money into the evil banks and cutting our credit cards in half, by stop playing the fake game of ¨democracy¨ by not voting for people, let´s start voting for ideas instead.

    By leaving our sinagoges, churches and all religions, by stop supporting those industry sharks like wallmart and all the others, by stop buying gasoline cars....¨

    This is the ONLY way we will force change, and only then we´ll be ready to create a new system, it doesnt matter what system, what matters IS that we change to something radically different.

    It wont work to grab a gun or a stick and run the streets
    in protest to protect our so called ¨freedoms¨, we never had any, just the illusion of,.....if we really want to kill the empires we have to stop paying our money blindly like sheep.

  • http://groups.google.com/group/aristomafia/files?pli=1 Old Git Tom

    Al,

    I have sympathy with your aims, but radical change only comes when critical masses of people move together. What we do individually makes almost no difference. We also need to move the majority becos if a minority does the changing the result will not be democracy, just a change of rulers.

    Street demos & scuffles no good? Not entirely true. The crowds took to the streets of Iran & overthrew the dictator Shah.

    But agreed to a point; at the Toronto G20 protests, the police 'kettled' the crowds into side streets & arrested everyone in sight, even an old guy with one leg & some tourists. They were kept in cages & cuffs for 20+ hours. Did you ever see that "Soylen Green" movie?! OGT

  • Al

    OGT

    The problem IS that we cannot organize huge amounts of people to walk and to think like we do at the same time, its simply impossible, as you previously stated riots and revolts are becoming obsolete as well, because the ruling elites are also getting more "geared-up" to easily deal with the upset protesters.

    So the answer is not to fight them like animals, but by stop supporting them with our money, which IS exactly what makes them powerful and untouchable, they depend on our cooperation to do whatever they want to us, without us, they have nothing at all.

    Individually we can do very little, but the trick is to keep spreading the word, and the changes will eventually come as more and more people wise up, its the only way.

    Cause most people are either too old, or too young, too naive or too busy working to sustain their families, and also too scared and careless to organize mass revolts, so information is the way of the future, ( if we ever get to have any ).

    Yes, many massive revolts have succeeded in some degree, but without real changes in the system, the corruption always comes back again.

  • Al

    (This is a song from a band called Muse, interesting lyrics wouldnt you say?)

    ------------------------------------------

    Title: Uprising

    Paranoia is in bloom,
    The PR transmissions will resume
    They'll try to, push drugs that keep us all dumbed down
    And hope that, we will never see the truth around
    (so come on)
    Another promise, another seed
    Another, packaged lie to keep us trapped in greed
    And all the, Green belts wrapped around our minds
    And endless, red tape to keep the truth confined
    (so come on)

    They will not force us
    They will stop degrading us
    They will not control us
    We will be victorious
    so come on

    Interchanging mind control
    Come let the, revolution takes its toll
    If you could, flick the switch and open your third eye
    You'd see that
    We should never be afraid to die
    (so come on)

    Rise up and take the power back
    It's time the fat cats had a heart attack
    They know that their time's coming to an end
    We have to unify and watch our flag ascend

  • Dave

    Hi People,this all makes for interesting reading.Just a couple of things...You all reincarnate according to your progession toward a state of Truth and Trancending Love.Where you're at and how you live is a function of how you feel (if you feel, and there's many that can't)and how you think ,not what you think.The evolution of the collective soul is whats goin' on.Don't worry so much and try not to hurt each other,Heaven is a state on Earth,We'll get there one day.I can remember a couple of cycles,we come from soul clusters like families so there's Love out there trying to look out for you Coz we don't all manifest at the same time. Its difficult to remember - at the moment of incarnation you get sqeezed into 3 dimensions-remember that claustrophobic feeling you used to get as a child,its traumatic.Take yourself back and remember.And Yes there are parasitic forces trying to block you -But keep Love in your Heart and they can't touch you.And remember to say Thanks to the Earth-we are all part of the same Divine.Peace.

  • badman

    So we are to give up the worship of money for the good of technology. Thanks. Brilliant. The premise here has the same basic flaw of all other isms that went before:That the problem of man is external to himself. If he could just arrange his environment just right, everything will be alright. Same old fantasy.

  • http://groups.google.com/group/aristomafia/files?pli=1 Old Git Tom

    badman, you are both right & wrong, I'd reckon! You are undoubtedly correct that humanity's enemy is ultimately humanity - a point missed by various 'isms'. But it does not follow from this that efforts to correct our inherent flaws & limitations are futile - bad logic & dubious history.

    Slavery was a human arrangement. It was abolished. So we can & do progress. OGT

  • Derek

    Mitch Graves - you certainly don't have to agree with the opinions in this movie, but you failed to directly mention what specifically is wrong in this film and what has been 'debunked'. Are you going to argue that our capitalistic society does not cripple the advancements in technology b/c of self-serving interests to the established industries and corporations?? I can understand if you don't agree with the potential for a new society like the venus project, but this is about presenting the 'holes' in our current system - capitalism and the resulting globalisation.

  • john jackson

    You misunderstood the "ethics" of the film, there are no ethics. The ideas of the venus project are scientific. In science there is no good or bad, there are variables, both genetic (making certain behaviors more likely, but does not cause behavior) and environmental that make you who you are.

    I recommend reading James Gilligan, he talks about how we get violence;

    the point is, being violent is as natural as being good. neither is the way people "are" we can be either based on our environment.

    people with mental disorders would be helped, i have worked in psychopathology, the albert fitch stories you get in the media are not true.

  • http://groups.google.com/group/aristomafia/files?pli=1 Old Git Tom

    john jackson,

    IMHO, you &/or Zeitgeist are wrong. Ethics are written into the core of humanity. They evolved with us. Sapiens has evolved as a social being, despite outstanding individualism, becos of ethics. That is why we are unique amongst animals.

    To try for ‘value free’ policies for human survival purposes is futile. And you run the danger of the kinds of brutal social engineering that appeared in Nazism & Stalinism.

    Science adopts a value-free outlook for certain methodological purposes only. But you can’t weave a humanist philosophy from that. And science is NOT value-free as a body. What scientists study & develop is to a large degree determined by the multinational agri-pharma-energy indstries that fund their research - politics.

    Global bankers increasingly run the world. If Zeitgeisters think they can wrest control from them without an intensely political fight, I’m afraid they are living in cloud cuckoo land. OGT

  • jac1966

    Someone needs to tell Mitch Graves that the a man narrated and researched the movies. He should watch it before he makes a comment that makes him look stupid.

  • http://www.albertomaria.no.comunidades.net Alberto Maria

    Só um tolo poderia classificar a ideia exposta como uma ideia final. De espantar que no inicio de um novo milénio ainda subsistam pessoas com uma mente tão limitada, sobretudo à mudança, sendo que o mais frustrante disso tudo é que é a grande maioria. Parece que as pessoas se contentam em nascer para trabalhar na modalidade de escravo, para comprar uma casa um carro, um cão e ter uma mulher gorda e um filho. Isso é que é vida? Que fazer aos grandes problemas que se nos deparamos, os quais, como se viu recentemente no golfo do México, podem assumir proporções avassaladoras? SIM, eu acredito na mudança, e só esse caminho poderá alterar a rota de colisão com a catástrofe em que se encontra a humanidade. Será que ainda alguém acredita nas corporações para a solução dos nossos problemas?
    Que tal se ao contrário de criticar de imediato uma ideia, como um pistoleiro no oeste selvagem, nos dedicássemos a tentar ao menos a tentar entender as motivações, e em vez de apresentarmos criticas, por criticas, apresentássemos comentários construtivos?
    sim, eu acredito na mudança, não nos resta outra alternativa, senão, MUDAR!
    Alberto Maria From : Portugal

  • http://www.albertomaria.no.comunidades.net Alberto Maria

    Google translation from Portuguese:

    Only a fool would classify the idea expressed as a final idea. Surprising that at the beginning of a new millennium still exist people with a mind so limited, mainly to change, and the most frustrating of all is that is the majority. It seems that people are happy to be born to work in slave mode, to buy a house a car, a dog and have a fat woman and a child. That's life? What do the major problems we face, which, as recently seen in the Gulf of Mexico, can assume overwhelming proportions? YES, I believe in change, and only this way can alter the collision course with disaster in which humanity finds itself. Does anybody still believe in corporations to solve our problems?
    What if instead of criticizing an immediate idea as a gunslinger in the Wild West, we dedicated ourselves to try to at least try to understand the motivations, and instead of presenting criticism, for criticism, constructive comments have tabled?
    yes, I believe in change, we have no alternative but, CHANGE!
    Alberto Maria From: Portugal

  • young

    @john jackson

    I actually have a hard cover version of the book you mention. He's on to something but falls short and has been in fact discredited by his contemporaries.

  • young

    @alberto

    What you stated is a truism with no real insight. Change is the driving force of nature. Another truism and the question I think you should be asking is; "Change into what?"

  • young

    P.S - Vlatko, Why aren't the ZG films in the conspiracy category?

  • Al

    young:

    I think YOUR comments should only appear in the conspiracy categories, since you're only focused on critizism and denial rather than constructive feedback.

  • young

    @Al

    I've given constructive feedback over and over and over again which you ignore. This is my last response to you and your welfare mentality.

  • http://groups.google.com/group/aristomafia/files?pli=1 Old Git Tom

    Alberto & others,

    yes, we need change, as the Zeitgeist movies explain very clearly. So, less theory, more concrete proposals; let's cut the c*** about income distribution & redistribution through government & taxes. Start immediate political demands for -

    1. A universal living wage for all.
    2. This is paid for by the government printing its own currency (ZG suggested). Banks borrow from citizens or governement. Ratio of lending to reserves to be adjusted & specified by government to obviate inflation.
    3. Destroy unemployment by imposing a maximum 3-day working week.
    4. Local self-governing communities, linked by Desktop Democaracy (DD), run & supply all services. Staff will expert professionals backed by free volunteers.
    5. All non-criminal citizens will have the inalienable right to bear arms, but the duty to defend & police communities if so called on.
    6. The dangers of addictive drugs will be broadcast, but all adult citizens will be free to buy what they choose, including alcohol. Recreational drugs to be taxed for medical treatments, etc.
    7. Details of all land ownership, wealth, earnings, profits & financial dealings of all citizens will be freely available to all as DD data. Breaches of this to be policed by local communities.
    8. DD communities will have the power to curtail any economic development they identify as a threatening monopoly or trust, or as ecologically hazardous, or a dangerous waste of resources.
    9. All citizens to have the right to withdraw from any community, or join another.

    Just a suggestion! OGT

  • Al

    young:

    Let me quote your exact words for instance:

    P.S – Vlatko, Why aren’t the ZG films in the conspiracy category?

    ----------------

    Is that what you call constructive criticism?

    What makes you think that "they" made a mistake by not putting the ZM videos in the conspiracy category?

    What makes you think that by adding that arrogant comment they will change those videos to that category?

    If you say that I have a welfare mentality, then what kind of mentality would you say you have?.....A mentality of conformity, afraid to change and to keep denying that we are destroying ourselves and the planet if we continue things the way they are?.

  • Mari

    One of the most brilliant documentary you may watch. Thanks so much for having this available.

  • Ernesto

    Humanity is doomed. Fear not death but life.

  • Andon

    I feel as though a lot of people don't grasp what the film is trying to teach, which just show's me how deluded our society really is. I don't think people are ready to grasp these idea's as a whole yet, intellectual unity hasn't reached that point. The idea's presented here are inevitable in my opinion, it will happen eventually. It just make's me feel sorrow, for this progression is perfectly capable of being reached now, alas it will probably be hundreds of years in the future, after people have kept tarnishing their image.

  • http://groups.google.com/group/aristomafia/files?pli=1 Old Git Tom

    Andom,

    true, but the fact that most people are too befuddled to accept these rational & sensible ideas is not 'A' problem, it's 'THE' problem. Most want some minor tweaks & adjustments to the status quo, not realizing just how thoroughly corrupted & rotten the present system is. Convincing them of the necessity of a revolutionary change of direction for humankind is the essence of the task.

    Indeed, I doubt even many proponents of Zeitgeist fully realize they are in the revolution business. The technical & scientific instrumentation of saving humankind is vitally important, but there is also the political side.

    Replacing the current set of political power relations will take a great struggle, which may or may not be violent. Even with the best of pacific intentions, the choice is not in our hands there. The opposition may turn very nasty indeed. Thing is, have the Zeitgeist supporters the necessary understanding & will? OGT

  • John

    OGT:

    Your absolutely right, BUT the choice to remove the political stablishment IS in our hands, because the power elites are not going to change anything themselves, therefore is in our hands to stop supporting and obey them, as is the only way they will loose their strength, same for the banks and all institutions, if we use them less and less exponentially, they will shrink down as well.

  • berserker

    This religion c@#$ is s out of hand....Alex , please shut up... it is your dominion based b@##$%^& thats jeopardized our species existence and the biodiversity on he planet... zeitgeist seems to take care of most of those dominion based issues and replaces them with logic, tangible truth with an allegiance to our only commonality... nature... god, if you wish.

    Christians are insane for the most part... all monotheistic are... arrogant, short sighted, man made fables for the most part etc. we cannot follow the same systems that created the problems we face... expecting anything but the same or worse results...time is running out... an Ojibwa elder once told me that yes, we may not be able to turn the ship around in this lifetime... and in fact, we may not do it in the next or the next or??

    But we must try and... who knows... things can change fast when humans want or need them too... but not if Nature says... times up! my writing skills are limited..so do not remind me... my site needs enormous amount of editing due to this too. we need dramatic change ...now! Zeitgeist addendum and Peter J. / Jacques F. are visionary courageous. danke.

  • Mike

    wow, some of you seriously has to get a life.
    this is worse than the things I saw on forums back in '99 when 12 year olds tried to convince one and other that pikachu is way better than bulbasaur and vice versa.

  • Mikey P

    One question.
    How are resources allocated in this resource based system they talk about?

    Funny how they never address that question.

  • John

    Mickey P:

    That is indeed a complex question due to the fact that we haven't even try and test such resource based system, but try asking that on the zeitgeist movement forums and you'll get your answer.
    Because this documentary website is not exactly crowded with ZM experts.

    We have to understand that it is impossible for a person or a group of people to know everything and have all the answers for a system that hasn't yet being implemented, it's only logical.

    But let's not assume that they are wrong about "everything" if we dont like or understand a particular answer for a specific subject, I believe that they are not proposing a "static" or "closed" set of values and points of view, because everything has to be tested and if something simply doesn't work it gets replaced. As a constant learning experience.

    The scientific method implies that we stop using our egomaniac point of views and old values and rely more on things that have being tested with proven results in order to arrive at descitions instead of just fighting and arguing with each other to impose our will...And that's exactly how computers and technology are helping us constantly nowadays to make better judgements.

  • Mikey P

    John you could have given the short answer and said you dont know.

    It was a simple question. In a resource based system how are the resources allocated?

  • http://groups.google.com/group/aristomafia/files?pli=1 Old Git Tom

    Mikey P,
    you ask a very important question. But simple q’s don’t always have simple answers. John (above) makes some very good points, but I don’t believe he, Zeitgeist, or anybody else around fully u/stands the depths of this problem. This is worrying.

    To explain, it’s a question of who controls limited resources. We hope in a better system, it will be ‘the people’, ie., majorities thru the democratic process. But how people vote or get their views into the political control process is dependent on two problematic factors. 1/ What people know, how much information they have, in other words they must have free access to a free flow of information that is uncorrupted by lies, & in a form e/one can understand – what we don’t got now. 2/ The democratic process, the mechanics of how the multitude can make their views felt.

    In our present formal democracies, the periodic vote is pretty useless, since people depend on the mass media for their info, & the mass media are owned & controlled by a very small minority. They put out handsomely-crafted lies. Result, rubbish in, rubbish out. The resulting elected governments & policies just reflect the wishes & interests of the minority.

    John hits on the solution. Information technology can supply both the information (1), & provide the means for grass-roots, democratic self-government (2).

    But forgive me if wrong, I don’t think he fully u/stands the full implications. The biggee is, this is not a technical issue. The struggle to impose true democratic control on our societies is a political one. It implies a convulsive, revolutionary overthrow of the old system. Trouble is, in a revolution, democracy can get crushed by yet another minority. This is a danger where IT is involved. It is a powerful yet neutral tool. It can be used to enhance democracy, or the reverse - impose dictatorial, police-state rule.

    John believes, “The scientific method implies that we stop using our egomaniac point of views - - - - ” I can’t accept that. The scientific method is like IT, neutral, can be used for good or ill. It carries no political or ethical values. These are imposed on science by politics. An efficient scientist can be working on medicines, or weapons of extermination. How the scientific method is used is a political or ethical criterion that comes from outside science. People must democratically decide what science does, not vice-versa, even accepting that the democratic majority has little u/standing of what science might achieve to its benefit!

    More, shortage of resources is actually not an objective fact, it’s a passing phase. John is very correct, materially; how we serve human needs & wants is a function of how we apply scientific & technical intelligence. Those two can supply replacements for any vanishing raw material. When ship-building boomed & forests were going fast, we simply turned to iron & steel. When oil runs out, we can find alternative energy sources. Immensely powerful vested interests are at present blocking science in this, so don’t be blinded by ‘scientific’ proofs that X or Y is ‘plumb impossible’!

    Unconsciously, many people are materialists. They believe ‘things’ are fundamental. The wiser ones are idealists, who know that ideas shape the universe & make ‘stuff’. Good or bad governments are the results of good or bad ideas in people’s heads. Good science & technology make the food & water, the plenty, flow – it’s all ideas, at root (like shortage of money).

    Yeah, not easy, is it? But when we have no more problems, we’ll probably be dead, &/or plumb out of ideas. OGT

  • John

    OGT:

    You made some very good points there, however I disagree that it is "worrying" the fact that no one knows the depths and details of how exactly the resources are going to be gathered and distributed. I believe it is a lot more worrying to remain static by being afraid of what the future could hold for us.

    We went from old wooden cars pulled by horses to spaceships in less than a hundred years, that is pretty overwhelming in terms of the evolution of our technology.

    I see people everywhere nowadays saying:

    - Oh my god, the ship in sinking!!....what do we do??....

    - Sr. maybe we should get off and try to get somewhere else!!.....

    - Hmmm, no!!....It could be dangerous, maybe we can continue on putting more patches on the floor and ceiling and see how far we can hold on!!

    - Sr. half of the tripulation is already drowning!!

    - I know, but is still safe for the "important" ones on higher ground!!

    - Our resources are running out Sr!!

    -( Cap'n thinks ) No soldier, yours are...."

    ---------------------

    Sorry for the analogy of reality, but I couldn't resist.

    The scientific method is important to clearly understand, because it can be used as a tool to arrive at better resolutions, but that doesn't mean that "scientists" will rule the world. That's why is called a "method" of doing things.

    The problem with not using it is that we keep on blocking and dismissing each other by our cultural and educational differences, we tend to use "interpretation" instead of just going straight to the heart of the problems.

    We tend to use our current values and current beliefs/identities instead of accepting the "upgrades" we know we need.

    People constantly ask, but who would be in "control" of the resources in the resource based economy?

    First of, are we really in control of our resources today?

    No, those are controlled and distributed by a bunch of greedy sharks, who have no intention of producing healthy and long lasting products other than harmful/wasteful and fast profit producing items, most of which we dont even need.

    So in a resource based economy in the other hand, where there is no money and personal profit, why would anyone want to "control" a certain type of resources?

    We like to "control" things today because that certainly gives us differential advantages and privileges than many others less fortunate.

    In a resource based economy "no one" controls anything, everyone has access to everything, everyone works for everyone instead of just "one boss" like today.

    How those resources will be produced and distributed?

    You need to specify What resources you refer to. But let's begin with the basic ones, such as food.

    Is it really that hard to design a system that produces fruits and vegetables for about one thousand people?

    We can build small robotic "farmvilles" throughout the cities, with easy access for the people living nearby, there is no need to create huge "food gathering" wasteful centers like walmart.

    And please note that when I say "we" I mean WE the people, not institutions, nor politicians, not the venus project.

    Nowadays we spend 90 percent of our time working like monkeys for just one person ( our boss ) When we could learn to work for everybody using only 10 percent of our time, this rate could be higher in the transitional stage, but I hope you see the point.

    There's plenty of wonderful examples in nature's animal societies, who work as REAL societies, everyone works for everybody, therefore everyone has access to everything they need.

    Some might say, yeah, but humans are more "complicated" than insects and animals,...That's true, but only because we restrain ourselves and enslave each other with our oldfashioned monetary system, which creates and incentives competition.

    We haven't yet realize that we don't need to compete with each other in order to have access to our resources.

    When Mickey P says: How are resources going to be "allocated"?
    And OGT says: Yeah, that's a question that TVP and no one has and Im worried about that..."

    First of all, why do we need to "allocate" them?, basic resources as foods can be produced locally in every community, and we don't even need to become "farmers" because we have technology and brains and a lot of time to figure it out.

    As for energy resources, we can build small/local electric and thermoelectric and many other types everywhere to satisfy it's local surrounding communities, so again, there is no need to create mega huge complicated energy plants. And if in some cases we do, we'll have also machines working on them, because if we don't change our current paradigm, the power elites are going to control us using machines against the poor ones, so it's time we begin to "reverse" the industrial revolution before it completely destroys us.

    The internet can continue as the greatest communication for everyone, everyone can contribute with their ideas and can also take advantage of other people's ideas, so there is no need to have "leaders" anywhere, in other words, we need to evolve from our current dependency of "others" to decide our lives, which is exactly why we are so afraid of not having "leaders" and ridiculously also afraid of having "them" because we cannot longer trust them today.

    Scarce or hard to get resources?...There will be plenty of ways to obtain them in the future, just like we obtain them today, but we could have robots as miners instead of poor humans risking their lives underground.

    Why is it that we so happily embrace new upgrades and new programs for our computers every day even when we were working ok with the old versions and knowing that we'll have to learn the "new tricks" of the improved software?

    And on the other hand we keep on living with the same ancient political systems from the 16 and 17 centuries?

    But nobody is a real psychic, no one knows how the world is going to look like two hundred years from now, it's impossible to give a fairly accurate prediction, but hopefully we'll be able to design our future instead of just letting it be as it is today, and most probably there will not be two hundred years if we remain "worried" and "static".

  • ReligionIsntAllBad

    Here is one major problem I see in the arguments above ... "Scarce resources ... technology will make them more abundant!". We don't actually know that, sadly. And we don't know when, which resources, or what rate of changes. There is scarcity and we must deal with that issue as a society. Robots (aka super awesome future tech) don't make scarcity go away EVER ... because there would be a scarcity of robots (or robot technical expertise) until the entire planet had been raped of resources then there would be a scarcity of everything ..... or the robots would poison us all and solve the issue of scarcity quite nicely hehehehe

    My concern is corruption of the democratic system and the collusion of business and the state ... in addition the amount of influence the state has over citizens is unsettling and makes you want to scream JOIN AN INTEREST GROUP. This is a huge problem that is right out in the open for everyone to see. If we can't tackle this problem then just forget resource based economy. This all boils down to a political struggle as mentioned above. Unfortunately, we need a greater mean understanding of ourselves and each other as individual and collective before we could successfully win the political struggle in our current system :(

    Oh also .... honestly ... point to a centrally planned economy somewhere in history that wasn't a COMPLETE disaster that eventually was corrupted and collapsed. You need at least some elements of free market, or else you have to dream up a supercomputer that valuates everything properly like a giant brain that does our thinking for us. Then you have to hire gaurds to gaurd the computer from tampering and gaurds to gaurd the gaurds ... :)

    PS - I will be watching CNN just in case we do eliminate scarcity I will hear about it ... but I won't be holding my breath

  • http://groups.google.com/group/aristomafia/files?pli=1 Old Git Tom

    ReligionIsntAllBad

    as with many posters here, I agree with much you say; but ‘scarcity’ is not really an objective problem. It is not a scientific/technical problem either. It’s a political issue, & politics is about who gets the crust, & who gets the caviar.

    The kind of grotesque society we tolerate creates shortages. Eg., energy; the whole universe is a free lunch of energy. What stands b/ween us & that is the energy corps. These are so powerful politically, they write US & Euro foreign policy, & start wars. Shell-BP put their personnel in the UK Foreign Office, as does Goldman-Sachs with gov. The Bank of England is a cartel of private bankers.

    Result, we don’t really have either planning or free capitalism any more. We have corporatism, the merging of corps & gov. The fat cats dodge manufacturing anything, just dip their hands directly into taxpayer money. If only the mass media would inform people of such simple but harsh realities!

    To disagree with you: central planning can be a roaring success, but as you imply, only in harness with free market exchange. The total planning of everything, top-down, was proven a relative failure in the USSR. Worse, economic determinism cannot live with political freedom. People getting the things they demand is intimately tied to them getting the kind of life they want, or need. Freedom is as necessary to human welfare as clean air, food & water.

    Yet, the economic & industrial rebirth of Europe post-WWII was planned. The skilled public servants in the USA responsible were purged from government in the McCarthyite years (1950s), then replaced with Wall Street turkeys. The present economic catastrophe follows from that, as cheered on by Reagan, Thatcher, & the eminent snake-oil salesman, Milton Friedman. Our present system is like a runaway train stripped of brakes or controls.

    The big corps largely control govs & scientific research funding. The money determines what is ‘possible’, & what is scarce; the less there is, the higher the prices. But what is FINITE, is our global environment. To the corporate psychopath, if there is only one tree left, it simply means it is an immensely valuable commodity for sale to the highest bidder. After they have counted the cash, they will turn their diseased brains to wood substitutes.

    Sorry, but no-one can give iron guarantees for any future form of genuine democracy. If it were otherwise, it would not be democracy. It would control we humans, depriving us of free choice.

    We will have to find a democratic schema for distribution of resources, & we can be sure there will be plenty of friction involved. So what? Tho short of a utopian heaven on earth, we can survive much happier than in the current Schweinerei. The future can be a dream or nightmare – we decide. OGT

  • http://breakingawayfromtheherd.yola.com berserker

    it is impossible to remedy or eliminate the problems of humanity (war, starvation, species extinction-biodiversity etc...do I really have to list em?) working within systems e.g. government, religion(non-indigenous), corporations, world economy, by ... using and WORKING IN THE SAME SYSTEMS. Why is that so goddamn hard for intelligent humans to understand? Because WE cannot let go of dominion. Over each other and the most ill-conceived notion of US over Nature. Zeitgeist/Addendum gives us an alternative and MOST of it I agree with, but I have NO alt. plan...nor does most anyone. The ore proposition zeitgeist makes is that the current systems are failures. HEll, I could see this and I am barroom philosopher, albeit one who pays attention to the nuances of life here on EArth.If we keep hanging onto our belief that systems we did believe in can still evolve and heal...can work, then we are certainly doomed.
    An immediate about face is required and it too will morph, but IT WILL AT LEAST PULL US AWAY FROM THIS INSANITY WE NOW ACCEPT.
    The ONLY Commonality we possess as humanity is Nature. Nature is our guide and we cannot live outside the circle of life, of biology any longer. This and ONLY this will give us a flourishing and sustainable future. Thde ludicrous complexities and conflicts these systems have given us we have accepted to our real possible demise unless....we ID these sources, break away from the herdish mentality we ALL have and, Embrace the COmmonality which is Mother Nature... ZEitgeist allows thsi to occur and ALL we must do is ..sTOP playing one game .... and begin playing another ...teach others ..tell others by a new conversation daily... and we may save our heritage as humanity... trim the ridiculous waste we have accrued ... waste of mind, spirit and our true heritage the earth and its resources. Ishmael by Daniel Quinn defines the point at which we separated from nature some 10k yrs ago....before this point we understood the balance required to exist. This doe not mean we .."go back" and desert the many gains we have made , it only means we salvage what is connected and what will work WITH nature for the thousands of years to come.
    keep hanging onto the systems of our past and we die...soon.
    theberserker B

  • ReligionIsntAllBad

    Old Git Tom ... you pretty much rock, friend. I enjoy many of comments as I find them while I am watching :) I dont yet agree that central planning can be a roaring success, as I do not see any successful examples of governments straying too far from market valuation. In fact you could say that one of the big problems of the US economy has been creating bubbles (aka deviating from true market valuation) which eventually burst. But we have political issues to deal with first of course.

    I completely agree with pretty much everything you said. Scarcity is a political problem, and our political system is very very screwed because of how intertwined it has become with industry. Seemingly to unlock this problem, we as individuals within democracies must advance our conscious understanding of each other and our world. Oh and start caring ... dont forget we have to care haha. Only by advancing our mean understanding (and caring) and then taking back the reigns of our political systems can we ever hope to reach the phase of implementing these economic ideas. I hope we do because I agree with the sentiment if not the specific ideas put forward in this docu ... our aging social institutions are losing their relevancy. We need to rethink, reshape, and transform them to meet our changing needs as a society ... or else we are in for some nasty shockers.

    Cheers to you OGT, and heres to hoping our children are smart enough to build bridges across the giant chasms we leave them :)

  • ReligionIsntAllBad

    To add ... of course markets need restrictions imposed on them. As you point out OGT ... without such restrictions some jerk will sell our last tree to us.

  • mark

    when im hungry, i go get something to eat,
    whats wrong with you fool...

  • John

    Religionisntallthatbad and OGT:

    Dou you really think that the corporations running the whole show are going to impose "restrictions" on their own markets?

    Do you think that politicians can actually impose restrictions on the corporate leaders who elected them in the first place?

    Politicians are the actual "spokesmans" of the corporate leaders, so there is no way corporations can be controlled in this current system paradigm.

    On the other hand, "scarcity" IS based primarily on MONEY, the more money you have the less scarcity you suffer and viceversa.

    So "scarcity" is not something that politicians can actually fix, ...the fact that grapes are more expensive than oranges, or peaches are more expensive than lemons doesn't mean that grapes and peaches are "scarce". It means that the markets tend to manipulate prices depending on their profit interests.

    There are diamond mining companies that actually destroy diamonds when their production rises in order to keep them very expensive.

    How can we expect nowadays to improve our living conditions when they keep rising the prices constantly at faster rates than our salaries?

    "Scarcity of resources" is a man made invention for the most part because it incentives profit and business opportunities, world hunger IS about money and not about food scarcity.

  • http://groups.google.com/group/aristomafia/files?pli=1 Old Git Tom

    ReligionIsntAllBad & John,

    to try to respond to you both, sound economic & ecological planning is not the enemy of free market exchange. I am anti-socialist enuf (just) to see them as complementary. They must go together. And please, my leftist friends, don’t be seduced by the dream that some higher authority can decide what people will need & want. That is a very 19C misconception, & as with Soviet Russia, can just establish another disastrous dictatorship; the Bolsheviks were very full of high ideals & good intentions, too.

    On the other hand, it is not socialistically dictatorial to stop money-hungry idiots cutting down all the trees, or to prevent them dumping chemicals in our waters. That way, everyone loses, even the capitalists eventually.

    Naked, uncontrolled capitalism always ends in disaster. It’s not becoz of ‘greed’ or ‘evil’. It’s becoz w/out controls, it is a dehumanized monster. Our present system has thrown off all constraints. That is why we are going headlong into multiple disasters – ecological, economic, & global-political. The fault is singular. It is not capitalism, but capitalism unrestrained by democracy.

    Sound planning means democratic planning, a principle I am not sure Zeitgeist fully grasps. The acid test for its plan for a better future is its transition plan for getting from here, to that higher form of democracy. That revolutionary transition phase is the essence, the key. Unless it is realistic & feasible, the future will remain very doubtful, or a utopian pipe-dream.

    There are immensely powerful & ruthless vested interests between us & that viable future. Unless we factor that into our plans, we are just another bunch of sheep, leading the other sheep to another slaughterhouse. OGT

  • ukraine

    This movie changed my life!
    Absolutely brilliant.
    The revolution is coming. And it's going to happen whether they want it or not.

    But all in it's time. There's no need to force things, or try to convince people.

  • CandyMan

    ukraine:

    Yep, that is so true. Cheers to that

  • jo

    This gives me newfound hope in humanity.

  • SkeptixFelix

    Blew my stoned head to another level...seriously Zeitgeist is the secret religious bible i was searching for lol no offense other religious bums!! haha..man Addendum just gave me a better heads up about a lot of confusions i had about the monetary system and life itself..it is actually kind of more close to an enlightment mayb if you like cos im high.:)i have always been skeptical about stuff at the very beginning...altmost at the ending part of the movie i had this feeling of being in a world like the Venus project my eyes became watery literally!!it was overjoyed that there is hope for a better future for alienated hippie hearts..
    man i promise this day to do my best to promote Zeitgeist,if not for me at-least for my niece or even my own kids and grand-kids who knows...i believe in science and technology cos it doesn't lie and we humans are the abundant resources for exploring it..look at the population!!i wish every person on earth with a brain would grasp the concept..it is a no brainer so less complicated than any system of governance or religion or norms etc..we are too busy tangled in the money web that we have no time for evolution of the brain!!is there a FREE!free your mind drug mr scientists??!!

  • http://breakingawayfromtheherd.yola.com berserker

    quit supporting the same systems that have brought us all these problems. is it that hard to comprehend? to do? to stop feeding the systems , the reality that doesn't work! HEre is a construct and a few definitive ways to start....NEW MOVIE THIS SATURDAY...MOVING FORWARD! SO.. agree 100% or 5%....but start living differently for chrissakes. in time the CURRENT powers/systems/leaders will dissolve if we act...share and start a new conversation....every damn day. anyone can do what I have described. DAniel Nocera has MIT invention that creates hydrogen super inexpensive and he did this with the so called third world in mind...(he opened sourced IT!) but even he knows it can;t happen with corporations...WE have to share and help them... teach. an educated person brought out of poverty will certainly not be your enemy or an enemy of Nature...ever. START NOW ...WE NEVER REALLY KNOW WHERE WE'LL END UP BUT AT LEAST WE START TO ALTER THIS REALITY. DANKE

  • mamma D

    After watching TZM movies & visiting The Venus Project website, read the FAQ's, listened/watched lectures/videos & seeing how the websites have grown in such a short time, it fills my heart w/hope for this current generation & the future. At 62, with grandchildren, I say to this generation "I support YOU and TZM/TVP 100%. I feel these ideas are practical & are just plain common sense if you can FEEL that we are all ONE family. We can make these ideas a reality by SPREADING THE WORD that we have now outgrown the NEED for politics, government, religion and most of all money. I know it sounds radical but hey, THIS IS BIG, THIS IS POSSIBLE & THIS, TO ME, IS THE ONLY WAY to a better future for future generations.
    Love - Mamma D

  • Aaron

    I am with most of the ideas here.
    YET
    To say there is no human nature and to suggest that we do not have negative desires from birth is ignorance and I would imagine can only come from people who have not had children.

    Babies within months of birth figure out how to manipulate and deceive to get their way.

    And I believe religions and/or people bent towards religion is birthed out a natural desire to the supernatural and/or experiences that can only be attributed to the supernatural.

  • John

    mamma D:

    Thank you very much for such beautiful words that sums up the zeitgeist movement, yet some air heads don´t seem to get it when it´s so obvious and logical.

    Aaron: They say that there is no human nature, but what we have is Human behavior, but people seem to get confused with ¨instinct¨ which is a totally different thing.

    But anyhow, does that subject really make a difference?

    The point is, we can argue and disagree on many subjects, but the one thing we cannot disagree is that we have to change our direction and get rid off money or we are destined to suffer a very tragic and violent end.

  • Aaron

    John,
    Thank you for your responds. Yes indeed we MUST change our direction concerning money.
    I am a fan of the bartering system and try to make use of it as much as possible.

    True that instinct, which used to be called "human nature", is a deduction from the viewable human behavior.

    I do think that that subject, but more so the subject of religion, is very very important.
    This is why I wish it was not dismissed so easily in this video.

    I can tell that the makers of this video very much admire Ron Paul. I do as well.
    They should take note that he most likely would attribute any good he does, is because
    of his Creator who lends him the ability to do so.

  • Nick

    This film was brilliant. It offers a clean, unbiased analysis of the failures of our current systems that are designed to keep the rich rich, and the poor poor. But it's not only a sobering wake-up call...it also offers a clear, logical, peaceful solution to these systematic corruptions.

    Your best bet is to watch it yourself and decide if this is or isn't the best message for change you've ever heard. Despite attempts to "debunk" this film, and its predecessor, Zeitgeist: The Movie, the debunkers themselves have been debunked. I hear it's time to look out for the next film, "Zeitgeist: Moving Forward"

  • Elis

    Take this example, The s&p 500 index was around 130 30 years ago today it sits 10 time higher around 1300. Gold was at 800 today its at 1300 dollar, So gold return was poor...except for the last ten years, what you gonna do everything goes up...as long as you stay in the pool you will be wet, the others will be left to dry, hey if the money is US dollar its normal US people serve them self first everythig is fine for as long as man his creative.

  • Lary Nine

    "Unite us, Wallace. Unite the clans!"
    ---Braveheart.

  • Munk

    I have been concerned for many years about the new religion which has developed – the religion of science. Its followers are no less fanatical than those of radical Islam. I think that is what we have here in this film – followers of the new religion, science. That said, I am not some dark ages weirdo who does not believe in using technology to our advantage. I just don’t place all my faith, hopes and dreams in it.

    While I do agree with some fundamental concepts, I disagree with others. My initial gut reaction is this seems to simply be a replacement of the totalitarian system we have now - trading one for another. To me that does not seem like real progress.

    What I strongly dislike is that anyone who validly questions Venus or Zetigeist on these posts is summarily attacked and that seems to me very unlike any sort of utopian society and not at all in line with the ideals which the Zeitgeist films put forward. What happened to challenging norms, moving forward and celebrating being wrong?

    I do think that some of the ideas could be incorporated into an even better system. A system which is more inclusive of the various needs/wants of everyone. That would be REAL freedom. That’s what it boils down to at the end of the day (for me at least!) – freedom. Not my idea of freedom or someone else’s idea of freedom imposed on you, but real freedom.

    It also begs the question: over 90% of the world has belief in a faith of some sort (in the traditional sense). What will happen to them? Conform or be thrown out? How is this any different than what’s happening today? It is just a different ruling class.

    What really saddens me is that there is a valuable educational resource on the fractional banking system here, and it is co-mingled in with religion and other issues. Like it or not, that automatically tends to lump the whole thing as kooky or some conspiracy theory camp in most people’s minds. Most people are ignorant about fractional banking and Zeitgiest (particularly the Addendum) offers a clear, concise, pretty accurate lesson. I’ve been preaching the same thing to everyone I meet for over 10 years! Sadly, not all are interested or care. Again, we come back to freedom.

    More inclusion of all ways is needed to move forward, not just embracement of science. I do like that alternative solutions are offered and respect the sharing of ideas (which is crucial), but more work needs to be done.

  • Adam

    I've been waiting ages to see the Zeitgeist series. Not had a few hours spare for a while and I must say I love them.

    Now don't think I am condemning anything here but at the end he wants us to boycott corporations and spread the word by joining the movement. Does this not seem contradictory? Religion by it's nature wants us to condemn things and spread the word of the creator's beliefs. In a way he is asking us to behave religiously to the "Church of Zeitgeist", and religion is something he is against.

    Anyone else get this or am I just a crazy old fool?

    Anyways, I'm not slating the series and learned a good few facts. On to part 3...... :-)

  • Adam

    Oh and I'm not trying to say he is brainwashing or there is a "Church of Zeitgeist" or anything ridiculous like that, I'm just simply pointing out the end gave me the impression of hypocriticalness.

    I already boycott petrol and cycle everywhere, buy local produce, and if I wasn't in rented accommodation on a student budget I would much prefer solar panels powering my house!! In fact my dream has always been to go and build and live in a self sufficient house in the hills somewhere, producing my own food etc. Somewhere warm. And sunny.

  • jac1966

    Adam. You're right. He is against religion because there is no proof that there is a God. Therefore, he doesn't believe in God and thinks it's a joke. But he does believe in his movement.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Marcin-Damian-Lipski/801340743 Marcin Damian Lipski

    another americano-centric point of view on everything

  • http://www.facebook.com/ElmoPutz David Foster

    "attempts to locate the root cause, while offering a solution"

    Yeah, that's what worries me the most about people.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_3WPGVQEQTGKLEXT6HVL3HJPRX4 chris

    You make some good points actually in this one 85% is old news to me. but i am an electrical engineering student so i research this a lot on my own, and most of the ideas expressed here are a reflection of my world view since i was 16. ANYWAYS, I don't think he is saying "join our movement" there was now "go to this website and donate x amount of dollars." or "follow so and so's teachings and orders." no it was saying here are some things you can do to combat these issues.... if they hadn't everyone would be asking "well what should we do?" the most common criticism of critiques of this nature is they just criticize and don't offer solutions. i think telling people what they can do to combat this was a great idea and essential to this video actually being worth something and not being just another "bowling for columbine".

  • adrian kelly

    WOW. This doc is the Alpha and the Beta. Here's a mad idea. People globally demand their local TV networks broadcast this film on a particular night, with an invited guest panel of experts to discuss. Then turn it into a linked "Globovision". Any body crazy enough out there like to kick-start the motion?
    Just a though anyway. Fucksake, I feel so useless!
    Ado Kay

  • adrian kelly

    Hey Mamma D, I'm a grandad myself. For the past few months I've been broken, watching the chaos unfold before my believing eyes. I've not slept these past few months with the worry for my grown kids and my grand children. I've felt a tremendous urge to wrap myself around them, to tell them that Granddad is gonna make things right again. But they don't know this caring grandad. I dare not show myself to them for fear of the terror, my fears will instill in them. Up until two hours ago, I've been in the blackest depression over what I see as an approaching economic apocalypse.But then I discovered "Zeitgeist" and suddenly, I feel a spark of hope.

  • Anonymous

    I stopped watching after the explanation of the money system in the beginning. There're some good basic facts there, but they're laden over with so much rightist nonsense that it becomes misinformation. Much better documentaries on this topic are, 'Money as Debt,' and, 'The Secret of Oz.' They're both available freely on the web.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_FLPUFJPPU5XIABB6ZZYB2AMNE4 Matt Josh

    i'm just shocked yet in the back of my mind it feels like the whole world is sinking and we'r all with it.

  • mane arcane

    Loved the 1st half, didnt like the 2nd.

    I dont like the spread of personal views that are not proven to be correct.

    I LOVE the spread of CORRECT FACTS of the way things are going in the world.

    Any suggestions for enlightening and revealing movies?

  • http://www.facebook.com/justin.lesniewski Justin Lesniewski

    i really feel that anyone who can denounce these movies in anyway must not be from the same planet as me

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=710357387 Peter Ruotolo

    I agree the world is learning as it goes.. In fairness to this movement they don't feel we have the luxury of time to allow this current system to continue being a stubborn obnoxious teenage brat with regards to the management of the planets resources.

    Disagree with them all you want but pessimistic or not just hope your "calm down everything's gonna be ok" ideology is right.

  • Eric71Can

    Good luck with the venus project :)
    This is very utopic to believe in that project.
    If you want to succeed, you will need to eliminate all corrupt (or corruptable) people on this planet, and this is a lot of people. After, you will need to change human nature.

    corruption = money = power = corruption...

    This was true 5000 years ago and will be that way in 5000 years.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001354158879 Gerard Delgado

    Religion doesnt solely cause conflicts between people. Christianity teaches us that true Joy comes from helping others through the work of god. Somewhat in the same sense of what this video just told us. Except this concept was written long before, in the bible. Whatever Religion, there is a sense of right and wrong taught. Now adays there isnt war so much on conflicting religions. It's more like, well if you don't believe in my religion then you are going to hell and that is your decision to make, I won't force you to change your religion. There will always be a church united, as long as there are people who believe in it. You won't really know if there is an afterlife until you cross over, and until science proves where our soul or where "life" goes after it leaves Earth, then Religion seems to have the best answer for it.

  • Mantid

    Religion doesn't provide any proof for where our ''soul'' transfers after death, so without proof there isn't an answer just a materialistic dream.

  • Ken Ben

    Sadly I agree. The damage is not so great that we cannot change in the next 50 years to create a more sustainable life. However the movement has a lot of work to do in changing the minds of the people in power. This socioeconomic system was created by them because this is the only system they can exist in. A resource based economy where money doesn't exist will lead to the destruction of societal class. The corrupt people in power gain their identity from seeing themselves as a higher class than others.

  • http://twitter.com/ActiveStoner Active Stoner

    Money is definitely the route of all evil.

  • arcticfish

    nope its the thought process that comes from basing a society on it. Though money (i mean any form of currency i also mean bartering) has had its purposes in the past but with the technology we have now it has outgrown its usefulness.

  • anonymous_pf

    it will not change because people like you that dont believe that is possible, if we all believe that we can change we can really do it, we create this sistem of couse we can change to another one, other thing you say is that it will be the same in 5000 years, impossible because this sistem is not sustainable so it will come to an end and sooner than you think, you clearly don´t understand also why people are this way corrupt its not because they are bad its because, how the sistem and the information you have at your disposel tell you to be, think about it if you hade no money, if we see each other like our brothers, our race our planet we are all one you now, butt people will not change to better if the are not forced to and the sistem is starting to fall and people will sufer from this and than we gonna star to realize that, we can all leave well. human kind has evolve so much that we clearly can all live well is a society that treat us all well, i think that we are not so stupid at the point to live in misery and destroy ourselfs without see that the problem is this monetary sistem, i'm allready on the other side its not ao utopic, utopic doesn't existe, is just a sístem that is way better than this one, its not perfect but clearely is better, i changed my way of thinking after being blessed with the information now i hope that people will see that, maybe it will be needed to them to really see what this sistem will take us, because if we dont change the world is gonna colapse, and whem it colapse will we keep our hands down and let the sistem take us down or we as a race can overcome this step of evolution and evolve, i trust is people, i just hope that every one can have the information and really think about it not with the sistem eye's butt with the human eye, sorry for my poor english :)

  • anonymous_pf

    it will not change because people like you that dont believe that is possible, if we all believe that we can change we can really do it, we create this sistem of couse we can change to another one, other thing you say is that it will be the same in 5000 years, impossible because this sistem is not sustainable so it will come to an end and sooner than you think, you clearly don´t understand also why people are this way corrupt its not because they are bad its because, how the sistem and the information you have at your disposel tell you to be, think about it if you hade no money, if we see each other like our brothers, our race our planet we are all one you now, butt people will not change to better if the are not forced to and the sistem is starting to fall and people will sufer from this and than we gonna star to realize that, we can all leave well. human kind has evolve so much that we clearly can all live well is a society that treat us all well, i think that we are not so stupid at the point to live in misery and destroy ourselfs without see that the problem is this monetary sistem, i'm allready on the other side its not ao utopic, utopic doesn't existe, is just a sístem that is way better than this one, its not perfect but clearely is better, i changed my way of thinking after being blessed with the information now i hope that people will see that, maybe it will be needed to them to really see what this sistem will take us, because if we dont change the world is gonna colapse, and whem it colapse will we keep our hands down and let the sistem take us down or we as a race can overcome this step of evolution and evolve, i trust is people, i just hope that every one can have the information and really think about it not with the sistem eye's butt with the human eye, sorry for my poor english :)

  • ardiana s

    what was the solution again?!

  • ThisDarkChestOfWonders

    Try sun worship. It will make you feel better to bow to something u can see that created you and is infinitely more powerful then you. For low, and the Sun of man did riseth from the east. And then seteth in the west. So it was written and so it shall be. Seriously, thanks for the laugh. Christianity is the biggest testament to human corruption and manipulation mankind has ever seen. I feel sorry for you. I know you can't help believing in something so silly and foolish. It is the environment you learned to trust, it gives you easy answers to impossible questions. It also helps that if you don't believe in it, you go to hell forever. What a loving deity you worship. Wake up.

  • budge5

    go away
    keep out
    what gives you have the right to contaminate comunities that dont need zeigeist
    We are not all under 'your' spell'
    especially in the sticks where relationships count

  • http://www.facebook.com/daveewer David Ewer

    Back to the nightmare of reality after another brilliant film from Peter Joseph. Thanks Peter. If everybody does something then we'll make a new world.
    Remember what Brian said in 'The Life of Brian' - "Don't follow anyone..."
    Create!
    Keep talking!
    Laugh and yet feel sorry for those that argue for the continuation of the abusive system - they're victims of an evil ideology - it's not their fault.

  • Lary9

    This is the third time this month that I've been educated by documentary about the Federal Reserve and how economics is "inflated" by the creation of imaginary dollars...something I knew nothing about before now.

  • TheRealMax

    Time to get over it peoples.
    Inviable friends, are a physiological problem, not a way of life.

  • realistgirl

    I do not agree with what you say except on some of the religious stuff. I am and will remain a Christian. It is man that has screwed up religion and caused it not to be believable. With regards to the money machine - they are not stupid. They will figure out what you are up to. You have clearly stated repeatedly in the movie that they have murdered for their cause. If you think they will go down without a fight you are strongly mistaken. They will hunt you out and kill you, therefore, you are going to have to literally fight for the zeitgeist lifestyle. Also I think you are in a dream world if you think 100% of the world population is going to live like they are suppose to. There are people that are mean and evil for the fun of it, with nothing to do with their raising or any other outside forces. They won't stop just cause everyone is in egalitarian society.

    I do not disagree with what you would like to achieve, I'm all for it. I just think it is going to be a lot harder than you think - or maybe you know that but you are not being upfront and telling everyone else that.

    One last thought - you said no one would have to work - if not who will grow & harvest the crops and build & maintain the "technology" you keep talking about?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100004247408256 Konstantin Vashchenko

    This is an embodiment of the socialism of 21th century.

  • http://www.facebook.com/ryan.han.5437 Ryan Han

    So, you didn't learn anything from the film...that's right, you're a christian... closed minded, brainwashed...

    The guy said no society is going to be perfect, but his proposed one is better than anything we have. I for one would like to live in it.

    So, keep on whining, christian, and keep being a slave to your religion, instead of contributing to the betterment of humanity.

    BTW, this is one of the best docs I've ever seen. Thanks Peter Joseph, people like you will change the world for good.

  • http://www.facebook.com/CAPTAINMcAWESOMEXTREMOTRON Adam Hall

    if- corruption = money
    and- abundance = no need for money
    then- abundunce = no need for corruption

  • Blue

    Quantum Physics - Mathematical Science of the Universe

    Ask for all that is good with gratitude for what you have - appreciate that which is good - believe that you have been given to all that is good in the universe and it is your right and no has the right to take it from you -

    Quantum Mechanics how it works

  • Anti

    Just excellent....the world is such a beautiful place, it IS only profit that is killing it, lets hope we don't spend ourselves into oblivion, the Earth will just restart over again as it has done 4 times already ,until it does find life forces that can get on together as one, it sure seems humans blinded by this money and power cannot..

  • Anti

    good to hear, because the more you see how you have been cheated by these greed merchants the more things start to make sense as to the why's and wherefore's of world distabilisation just so the banksters can cheat more people out of their resources and homes for themselves!

  • Anti

    Get rid of your TV, move any cash out of main banks , before they do a Bail IN and you loose your deposits.

  • Anti

    Take money out and most of those willing to be corrupted will die off. Most people want to get along and not outdo or cheat others, sp really we need to foster a different conscience to be the norm from the one that dominates today, greed,power ans ego.

  • ivehadenough

    christians...utterly utterly primitive caveman attitude ever...pleeeeease i dont want my children and theirs to be left with a greed filled money grabbing tosspot society that u seem more than happy to live in...let go of this..if you want to feel free and help bring real piece to you and your loved ones just look up at the sky at the marvels of the cosmos and all its perfection and know that your conciousness is part of the same thing and be at one with the source..you dont need to know what this source is just that its there...trust me this alone is a truly lovely magical feeling...please open your eyes awaken your selves to the larger picture. which has no s*upid rules and you wont need your crazy beliefs.you will find the love you need there..this film has and will open many minds to try for a better life. without these evil rich arsholes stealing my life from under my eyes...i dont want to be held back buy the s*upidness of your false beliefs anymore.,we need to do this together.unite ourselves this alone will cause damage to the negative forces that are ruining our planet and our lives..please for the better of man kind. before its too late...we can do this..we have to try.

  • ivehadenough

    christians...utterly utterly primitive caveman attitude ever...pleeeeease i dont want my children and theirs to be left with a greed filled money grabbing tosspot society that u seem more than happy to live in...let go of this..if you want to feel free and help bring real piece to you and your loved ones just look up at the sky at the marvels of the cosmos and all its perfection and know that your conciousness is part of the same thing and be at one with the source..you dont need to know what this source is just that its there...trust me this alone is a truly lovely magical feeling...please open your eyes awaken your selves to the larger picture. which has no s*upid rules and you wont need your crazy beliefs.you will find the love you need there..this film has and will open many minds to try for a better life. without these evil rich arsholes stealing my life from under my eyes...i dont want to be held back buy the s*upidness of your false beliefs anymore.,we need to do this together.unite ourselves this alone will cause damage to the negative forces that are ruining our planet and our lives..please for the better of man kind. before its too late...we can do this..we have to try.

  • terencegalland

    This type of world has always been possible,for it to happen the devils have to leave.

  • wow

    there is no religion mentioned in this documentary as matter fact its telling you of how the world economy is working ! How it turned to a religious conversation is ridiculous. Shows the ignorance of people, they will rush the white house to see a president get inaugurated I mean millions of people, including celebrities talk show hosts, yet their veterans who fought for their country have to get donations so that they can live a sustainable life ??? they fought for your country I don't see your presidents on the frontline nor do I see anyone challenging them to the FACTS why would you send Jackals to kill non recipient leaders who do not follow your brainwashing scheme? no one dares to ask or to question. I guess this is why the 1% prevail, leave the rest of them uneducated so they have to join the military and make up your wars so you can validate the reasons why, kill your young soldiers for what ? crazy thing is YOU STILL ALL JOIN THE ARMY even after seeing the realities, now that takes some brain washing indeed. If they can make money up then I guess making up wars is okay to..... WAKE UP !!!!!

  • Great Scott!

    (Any) religion is just an idea, just like zeitgeist. You entertain it, then you're caught with it mentally. Nothing wrong about that, but if you feel disadvantaged by an idea like religion, then there must be something wrong on how you apply (or not apply) such idea in your lives. Shows that you're weak intellectually.

    This documentary has lots of great points, but the discussion on religion is BS. Religion doesn't cause division. People misinterpreting their holy text do. Divisiveness starts once an a-hole of a religious leader brainwashes their poor and easily-controlled followers to assert such false idea, even to others who are non-followers.
    The zeitgeist ideology is no exception to this pathology. Look at how divided they are now.

  • Conspiracy

    This is the kind of doc conspiracy theorists love.

  • Peter JC

    The Zeitgeist movement allows you to accept or reject any concepts from the 18 essays. It is constantly in flux and evolving. It is nothing like religion. You should be capable of finding your own Zeitgeist, a cognitive parking space if you will, until you move or simply stay.