Zeitgeist Refuted and Exposed

Why won’t God heal amputees? One day we will all start to think logically and step out of the delusional mindset that organized religion has enslaved our minds to accept. I can use How the Grinch Stole Christmas to prove that a grinch exists. Stop trying to convince people that religion is true and just let it be what it is, and that is faith alone. You can’t convince others to have faith by throwing up bible verses that theologist can’t even agree to their meanings. I have studied religion and I still can’t understand why it’s so many different religions in the world that can’t get along with each other. More people have been killed over religion over the span of the earth than for any other reason.
So why won’t God heal amputees? If you did anything wrong on this earth or are afflicted with anything it is always hope for God to give you a miracle and restore you, except if you have lost a limb. God hated esau but did he also hate amputees?

God won’t heal amputees because the soul is forever but the flesh is temporary.

Wow…this movie just made orginized religion look REALLY stupid. I feel sorry for you guys.

The true mark of ignorance is one who does not think for himself, but rather, uncritically accepts all the dogma and doctrines that have been passed from one generation to the next, from grandparent to parent to child, and so on, ad nauseum. As long as people cling to these antiquated and superstitious ideologies, there will never be peace or understanding, and in turn, we will all continue to suffer.
So go now, ye sheep, and follow the blind shepherd, who cannot see the forest, nor the trees.

Sorry guys, Religion is only made for those who require emotional help…
religion is not actually made to solve your problems…

i don’t know what god is but i know what he isn’t, and god is not here to make our lives more complexed…

10 million christians? What? The roughly 10 million people killed in the holocaust were predominantly Jews and Gypsies (Roma). I’m sure many Christian enemies of the state were murdered as well but 10 miliion? Get real.

And as for the “doctor” that you saw? Have you ever heard of a “plant”? Its when someone (like an actor) is planted in an audience to give a specific response to support whatever the event is intended to promote.

This is the worst documentary on this website! I can’t believe its on here! So many so called “facts” are plain wrong! there are just wayyy to many to list here.

just like what Maestro said,

“…Anyway, back to reality.”

Explaining with logic and reason to Christians that the Bible is not fact, was never fact and WAS NEVER INTENDED TO BE FACT is like arguing with a drunk. It’s like the old saying goes, “Never try to teach a pig to sing. It just wastes your time and annoys the pig.” Greater minds than mine have provided evidence and argument that cannot be refuted with any sense of reason that Religion is NOT reality. I think there are already enough web sites where garbage such as this Mockumentary can find a home and these sites certainly would not allow equal time to a scientific mind any more than they would allow a class on evolution in their Sunday school. Turnabout is fair play. I vote this garbage is removed from this site and save the space for something that truly educational.

I got my first laugh from the opening statement that anyone who has studied scriptures will find them historically accurate and proof that Jesus lived.. Oh F*** that was a GREAT JOKE!! That helped me sit through the boring tubas so we could get to the real stupidity…

This dumb sonofab**** doesn’t know of the meetings at carthage. He’s a complete fo**, quoting his own comic book as his proof.. what a jack***.

I have proof the bible is true.. read the bible, the bible says its true…

what an obviously retar*** human being that should NOT be making documentaries.

It definatly disproves what was said in zeitgeist saying the story of christ is just a copycat of other pagean religions. Also, ten million christians seems like a fair estimate considering there was some twenty plus million people murdered under the nazi regime which is a long way from ten million total. Furthermore, most of you did’nt even have a sensible resonse to this documentary just he’s a retard or an idiot which he very well maybe i don’t know the man although right now Mitch Graves is not the person that i think is retarded or idiotic

A very interesting documentary for a open minded people.

Dogma for “open minded people” – what a strange notion !? Eh, moj Dare…

hahah this is such a damn lame try…Its on the religulous level so it will fit christians.Man qouting bibile ahahaha..lets quote some Harry potter..

Its utterly incredible that after 2000 years of misery brought on organized religion that there are still idiots like this guy trying to prove the existence of their loving god based on nothing more than a book they they themselves admit was written by humans.
I say nail him to a tree..he’d probably enjoy it.

The reason people refuse to stop believing in God is that they are emotionally addicted to the thought of God. Because when something good happens, they thank God. When they are in trouble and pray and then solve the problem (themselves), they thank God, not themselves! They are conditioned to explain things through God and not through some scientific knowledge, because either they have lack of knowledge (because God is everything they need to know to explain everything) or they end up explaining the unknown through God again.
What I learned in my History classes was, that monarchs (kings, other leaders and so on) were idealised in the eyes of the people who he was leader to, so that they would respect and obey him. Then some wise people during a crisis time write a believable story, which also consists of some wise sayings, which are true, but that doesnt mean that also everything in the Bible is true! And the concept of God was used to keep the citizens or the ruled in peace, so that they wouldnt cause any problems and obey!
Belief in God only promotes separation, because believers believe, that non-believers are somehow bad, which isnt necessarily true! It promotes gaining knowledge from some people who call themselves holy or saint or whatever, but if one looks at some things critically, he would find that many things are bullsh*ts!
Why doesnt the Bible include laws of physics and evolution? If there was any God, why would he let innocent people die, because someone wants to rule our planet???
IF HORSES HAD A GOD, HE WOULD PROBABLY LOOK LIKE A HORSE.

COME ON PEOPLE, THINK FOR YOURSELVES AND WAKE UP! DONT LET OTHERS THINK FOR YOU!!! THERE IS NO GOD, JUST MANIPULATION THROUGH GOD!

Please remove this piece of s***………………………..

Hi Justin,
‘this film fails to refute’

Well said

ok, guys, I didn’t even watch this movie, because it’s bull****, but I was glad to see so many educated and common sense people who left their comments here!!! Let’s make sure that we keep our minds sane and do not let crazy stories about Christ and heaven and hell distract us from achieving our goals in life.

Wonderful refutation. Anyone interested in refuting more of the claims by the ‘Jesus Mythologists’ like Archaya Stench, get the book Shattering the Christ Myth by James Patrick Holding.

A couple of personal conclusions.

1. There is no place for faith in the scientific method.

2. The scientific method makes no claim to the mysterious.

Actually, this film should be called Zeitgeist III, because it does more to support the main premise of Zeitgeist than to refute it. The fact that religion has been used time and again, not to enrich or save, but to establish power is irrefutable and the whole point of the first part of Zeitgeist.

Exposing the unbreakable bond of church and state as the ultimate power couple was the central theme of Zeitgeist (thus the bible and the flag as poor substitutes for common sense and reason as illustrated in the beginning of the film.).

While there very well may be reasonable contention as to the facts of certain information in Zeitgeist, this, like other arguments that cannot be won reasonably by the church, has been reduced to petty diversions (ie, arguing trivialities to divert from main points that cannot be argued), character assassinations, and name calling. These, ironically, are the very people that want you to follow them????

Zeitgeist and Zeitgeist Refuted both offer convincing arguments, questionable sources, and reasonable doubts. However, only one has it’s roots in common sense.

I’ll go with that one.

Joanna C, would you please elaborate on your statement that Christians helped create a better world. I just wonder, how exactly they helped…

Damn… didn’t read the comments, just started watching the movie without listening to the first opening statement…
After half an hour I skipped ahead and heard how the bible warns “us” for people who deny Christ “our” saviour, for they are the antichrist.
I want my 30 minutes back!!

P.S those who say Christian moral helped make the world a better place or those who are interested in the evolution of morality, please read “The Orgins of Virtue” by Matt Ridley, this explains why and how humans evolved morality. Christianity has morals because humans have morals, not the other way around.

Do not make accusations or judgments either for nor against anyone or anything. I cannot say whether a man who taught this or not lived but, I like what he taught in the bible I have only ever, when reading it, read the words in red. He taught freedom and no one comes between you and the creator only you know what is best for you. He also taught, self sufficiency and not bowing to any power on earth! Remember, and think to yourself do you know how to make wine or, to fish and to make bread all from your own labor? Can you fix your own car build a house can you treat your own wounds if out alone in emergency?

Why is it that those who don’t believe in evolution most often act like monkeys?

This poor attempt to refute Zeitgeist is laughable.

The best part about evolution is in the near future the Christian story is bound for fossilification.

Vilya, I do not accept your synopsis, you assume that we hare are commenting on Zeitgeist when we are posting on the refuted thread.

As to an open minded. If you feel that you can accept any idea as a possible valid, then please wade through them.

otherwise understand there are no flying pigs.

Vlatko.

Please do not remove this documentary. Granted that it is possibly the least intelligent work on the site, it is important to have access to any attempted refute. to remove a film based on popular disagreement would go against the spirit of this wonderful site. The free exchange of ideas is important to the progress of collective human advancement.

besides if nothing else we all need a good laugh every once in a while right?

Not a single refutation of Refuted. That’s just great! Could it be because you are such ignorant sheep for slaughter (as you brag the christians are)? The fact we want to be atheists doesn’t mean trashing arguments that we can’t handle on our own. Stop hiding behind documentaries and be real to yourselves you sheep! Go research the counter-arguments presented (I’m still on it… If I find something I’ll put it up.), and this, on your own, before saying “I liked it” or “It s***ed!”. I really don’t want to have anything to do with most of the atheists on here!! You p*** me off!! Get a life or some sound history books at least before giving us your supposed “expertise” bs.!! You’ve no idea of the arguments on the other side that would probably put many of you to shame. Oh and something else to waste my time: You actually want Refuted taken off???????????? You pathetic fascists give atheism a bad name! You’re a bad deal! What about the people who want to hear the other side? Who are you to deprive it from them?! If you do so, aren’t they going to say we are hiding the facts? “Start thinking people (!)” is good advice, especially for those who “think” with other people’s brains…! You parots! I agree with Joanna C who put you on the same stool with the catholic crusaders! Indeed we’re lucky you don’t have guns!! Over and (difinitely) out (of your way…)! Mumble all you want just know what you are when doing it!

P,S
no one has said they are ‘atheist’ until you.

What boggles my mind is how people get stuck in “their” time and civilization thinking that “theirs” is the most important the most thruthful. There’s been countless of civilization each with their religion and beliefs eg: Vikings, Incas, Greeks, Romans, Egyptian, Druids, American Indians, and on and on and on and on. Seriously? Don’t we see a pattern here??? Are we not evolved enough to see that all the religions we are involved in our time is noting but a fad? How fu*** eotistical are we to believe that our beliefs are everlasting? That OUR time, in all of the millions of years that passed, IS the TRUE RELIGION? Wake-up! God is the universe, an vice versa. It came from a singularity and we’re all part of it. And it keeps changing as it always will. In millions of years from now, humans won’t even exist, and somthing else will replace us. We’ll be like the neandrethals. Extinct. And whatever will replace us will have it’s own beliefs. What a joke to think ours is everlasting! We’ve also believed that the universe revolved around US! We’re so egotistical, it’s actually quite disgusting. Our reality is so narrow-minded in the grand scheme of things, we can’t even see further than our noses. Litteraly! That’s how we’re behaving conidering how our 2000 years of existence is a fart compared to the 15 billion years that the universe has existed. Yet we’re all fighting like we hold the truth! I DON’T GIVE A FLYING F*** who’s right and who’s wrong, cuz all I know is my time on this earth is approximately 80 years, and I’m spend it LOVING it. And when I die, if there’s a GOD that tells me :”Sorry buddy, but you didn’t serve me well enough, you’re not eligible for everlasting life” I’ll tell him he can go f*** himself, cuz I wouldn’t want an everlasting life serving him anyways. The God I believe doesn’t put much importance on what we do. It’s like us caring about the morality of ants! They do what they do cuz they’re ANTS! Are we gonna start judging THEM? NO! So why would God (and by god I mean whatever created us, if that’s the big bang so be it) why would he waste ANY AMOUNT of energy judging what EVERYONE DOES IN THEIR LIFETIME??? It’s so ridiculously egotistical of us, I’m amazed at how many people by into religion! WAKE-UP!

Bleh, sorry, I rushed the writing and after re-reading I noticed a couple errors and missing commas, my apologies. Still understandable, I hope.

Yea the voice got to me too..:P

Agreed..:)
The original reason for the “Supernatural” was to explain the unexplainable. From there it grew to a way to bring together, inspire, and instill hope in people, that did not know any better or were so down trodden they needed to grasp at something to stay alive (as a people). In this age of knowledge, or the information age, we no longer need the shackles of the supernatural to explain the unexplainable, we can actually try to figure it out.
While I still have an idea of some form of greater consciousness that we will never comprehend, I do not think it has any effect or affect on us at all.
I think the way to “heal the world” is through education and the freedom of shared knowledge.

Hi Vilya,
Maybe not knowing is better than having answerers that are probably wrong.

It is possible that the universe will never be fully understood and that human existence has no meaning beyond humanity. There may always be mystery. For me filling that mystery with the supernatural is not a solution.

That is why I have to disagree with the seductive idea for some form of greater consciousness.

It is difficult to come to terms with the limitations of human understanding, especially when confronting our mortality and that of those we care for. We take comfort from many supernatural beliefs.
But we can also take comfort in our understanding of the natural.

Yes, you were.

Did anyone refute Zeitgeist (the first part)??? Everything is ok in it??? Oh please!!!
Here is some refutation of Zeitgeist: The Movie
(Regarding the first part, about The Bible and Christianity.)
Please try to be calm and objective in order to be able to take -at least- a glimpse of the injustice done in this movie (Zeitgeist… not Zeitgeist Refuted).
These are just a few comments…!! There was much more nonsense to comment on!
(I will not comment on the historical facts that blow Zeitgeist from the map, since most are already found on “Zeitgeist Refuted” -found by those who want to be objective).
1. We are shown a hand that “has evolved” writing 1+1=2 (representing logic) on a piece of paper, and then someone removing the hand and the paper with the equation (logical thinking), just to replace it with The Bible. The idea is that The Bible and logic don’t go together. This is COMPLETELY LUDICROUS! Anyone who believes Christian beliefs are illogical, that they don’t make sense, either does not really know what logic is, or is simply too stubborn to admit the opposite. I mean, even a fairy tale, can be 100% logical (!!) yet false when compared to the facts of reality. If you never went to school and are cut off from the world, you might think (as some did) -based on your observation- that the world is flat. This is a logical observation, for in fact from “where you stand”, you cannot “see” it is round, you just see the horizontal line. Based on the factors at hand (your hand), your conclusion is a logical one, but not correct when compared to reality. In conclusion, likewise, believing that The Bible is not truthful is something we can talk about, but believing it is illogical, is pure uneducated nonsense.
2. The movie starts with pure atheistic propaganda. It blames everything on religion, it touches our sensitivity (images of war, children crying next to their murdered parents etc.), it equates war with Christianity (religion in general). It even makes itself to be a savior, one who will save us from The God and religion of The Bible. It protects us with the truth (ha!) by telling us through the words of George Carlin which are included: “I don’t know what God is, but I know what God isn’t!” (Oh you great benefactor you!) In other words: “Look, the christian god of the bible cannot be the real God! And you know why? We know What the Real God is, and it’s not Him!”
Well, really?? How do you know that… oh wise one?? How do you know what God isn’t????? Have you… revelation?? -Guess what? I have some news for you: God can be anything, even be the sadistic God (this is what they usually imply) that He is accused to be by those who are ignorant and arrogant (and vice versa). Hypothetically speaking, who can deprive Him of what to be?? Why can’t a God be sadistic and still be a God?? Why are you able to be sadistic and God can’t?? “Because he is God!” you protest. But how do you know what being God is?? Any answer you give, is just your view, nothing more. Get it? I hope so. So don’t serve philosophical junk food for wisdom, young people may be deceived, people in general.
3. Then we hear the very funny (12:18-12:46): He will send you to hell….. “because He loves you!” Don’t the atheists see how irresponsible, frivolous, arbitrary, this remark is?? Can’t you see this has nothing to do with the God of Christianity? I mean, being an atheist haven’t you studied The Bible, that you are now trampling all over? If you have, haven’t you noticed the sacrifice of Jesus Christ made in order that the man who will accept Him in repentance and faith, be saved form hell?? Isn’t that to you, even as an atheist, theoretically at least (!) some kind of love from God’s side (even if you’re not completely satisfied by it from your perspective)?? I mean, try to be honest. Didn’t you see such an effort on God’s side from the beginning of the Bible till the end, to approach man for his own good?? Irrelevant if you understand His tactics at all or to a degree. Don’t you see Christians approaching people, in order to speak to them about salvation from hell?? Don’t you know this is God’s will? Really, you don’t know all this?? You don’t see A God Who shows love at all?? And you really think the comedian’s stupid remark is true: “He will send you to hell… because He loves you”???? Then I have to ask: Do you have a brain your head man? What are you doing with it? Rather, what are they doing with it?!!! (My intent was not to insult anyone, but to awake the ones that should.)
4. Having said: “he will send you to hell… because He loves you!” he immediately says another stupid thing: “He loves you and He needs money!” Are we suppose to take the composers of this movie seriously?? Now that’s faith at its worst! -I mean, equating God Himself with someone who needs money? The Bible teaches this??????? We Christians believe this?????!!!????? You honestly believe we do??? Only a real immoral idiot can -right off the bat- equate God with the christian con artists, that a big part (if not the biggest) of the Church world wide condemns and exposes? The guy who made the movie allowed this remark to be part of the movie. What does this really say about him? Every much.
5. Then in comparing Jesus to… the sun (!!), he says: “Jesus Christ is born again, every morning”! What?? Jesus Christ is born again?? Every morning?? (24:30). Theologically, being born again, has nothing to do with Christ! It refers to those follow Christ, becoming children of God. Jesus was already The son of God!
6. Let’s see another ridiculous claim. At 24:36, we learn: that Christ’s crown of thorns, represents…. the sun’s rays?! A crown of thorns does that????? What a foolish comparison! I mean, speaking of evil fairytales! But really, did you object when you heard this, by saying… WHAAAAT???? Even as an atheist, don’t you have to be sensible and truthful?
7. Then he says: “…the twelve disciples… they are simply the 12 constellations of the Zodiac” (24:36) WOW! Did the 12 at least exist or were they just constellations?? If the second, how can he prove that? And how can he disprove the opposite!!!! I marvel at the extreme arbitrariness, and the gullibility of some people (some times willful gullibility!).
8. At 24:16 up to 24:44 we again see (do we?) the tactic he uses to prove his prejudices. He chooses to use words from The Bible (out of context), in order to make a parallel to his ideas! Completely irrational! He’s making a puzzle of his own fantasy. I mean, you can apply this tactic to any science book, and make all sorts of comparisons with other stories!! So?
9. Another “gem”: He calls upon a particular ignorant Christian (that is, if the story is true. It could be; there are many around, just as there are many atheists like him around.) who said: “God put those dinosaur bones there, to test our faith!” Wow! Another eye opener to Christian perspective. We are grateful. -Do you really believe this is what Christian’s believe??? Why would he use such idiotic examples in his movie?? Doesn’t it show that he is just to much of a fanatic… to be careful in his research?? This is a good question to contemplate on! One answered in Zeitgeist Refuted.
10. Does any body notice anything while watching from 9:00 up to 10:47?? Or is it a coincidence….?

In closing, does the viewer see from the above samples that he is being brainwashed? It has all the tools for the purpose. Please be honest.
Regarding the rest of the movie, it too, has nothing to do with Christianity. The fact that a new world order dictatorship is coming up, is -I believe- true from most perspectives. The time is not far. But anyway, is Christianity to blame? IT’S NOT! But -a bold question- isn’t it more probable (like 100% probable!) that atheists or/and pantheists occultists (masons etc.), would be behind it? From a Biblical perspective… IT DEFINITELY IS!
One more comment. The speaker says that the government does not want an “informed public capable of critical thinking” and that this is what brought on Zeitgeist. THIS IS CAPITAL IGNORANCE ON PART OF ZEITGEIST!!!!!!! It is not an example of critical thinking, but of a) a pathetic attempt to manipulate people in order that they turn against religion b) mixed with critical thinking. And this to make Zeitgeist seem like “a savior figure” while it is just another sheep in wolf’s clothing!! Regarding the “uninformed public”, because of Zeitgeist, they are now misinformed as well! Think of my comments above, and see Zeitgeist Refuted (I disagree with the preaching at the end, and I believe it should not have been in the movie!)
The rest I leave… to your heart.
May God give you His increase!

Max,
This is not true. Biblical faith contrary to what many think, is reasonable faith. Christians do not “just believe”…. This is completely false! COMPLETELY! Would a wise God, ask me to believe in Him without any reason?? So, NO HE DOESN’T! I don’t know exactly where this pseudo idea came from although it is just something ignorant Christians hide behind, or something atheists throw at their face. Let me give you some New Testament samples which disprove unreasonable illogical faith, that is, a faith with no indications as to its truthfulness (since I can’t underline, after each passage I will place in parenthesis some comments and key words):
Joh 2:19-23 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 23 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. 23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
(V.22 Jesus spoke of his resurrection, the Scriptures spoke of it, and after they saw Him resurrected, they believed His words and Scripture! First they saw, and then they believed! No problem! V.23 “believed in His name, when…”)

Joh 6:44-45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
(“except the father…. draw him” // “they shall be taught by God” [that is, in their spirit. This is why real Christians just know the truth] // also think about the last sentence in v.25)

Joh 10:37-38 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
(v.37! // v.38 “believe the works: that ye may know, and believe….” )

Joh 12:10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; 11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.
(“by reason of him many… believed on Jesus”)

Joh 13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
(Jesus knew the importance of an indication based faith!)

Rom 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(V.19 “that which may be known…” // “hath shewed it…” // V.20 “so that they are without excuse”

So, the idea Max that Christians “just believe” without any previous indications to the truth, is totally absurd (unless we are talking about children). God gives His indications which point to Him, in the way a small sign on the road points to a big city, but you have to -at the end- “just believe” “the big city”/God, is there. At this point is where faith is necessary. Besides, don’t you know that this is the purpose of Old Testament prophecy?!!!!!!!!!!!!! Prophecies serve as indications that promote faith to The God of the Bible.

If you want to be honest about it, prophecy with such details cannot be mere guessing! And it has nothing to do with the so called “power of the mind”; the prophets said that their source is The God of The Bible…!

Another indications -out of the many- most people never become aware of (!!!) is the fact that Sodom and Gomorah were found by Ron Wyatt, which proves the cities existed, where the Bible says they did, the miracle mentioned did take place, and it did as described though in the Bible (amazing finds)!! Wyatt is not archaeologist, but he doesn’t have to be to use a map (the Bible). See on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwTVFk1HK3Y
and by Ron Wyatt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgQHQ992Wnw&feature=related (see all three parts)
These findings Max, are not a coincidence, but are God’s way of helping people trust the truths of The Bible in general. They are just some of the many indications/proofs/evidences of the truth of The Bible, of The God of The Bible. YET, faith is still required. God did His part, our part has to meet His, half way. There’s a lot of reasons for this, but I won’t get into it here.
So, contrary to what you think, there are indeed “unquestionable” logical reasonable rational reasons for believing in Christ, and you know what? HE NOT ONLY HAS NO PROBLEM WITH IT, HE IS THEIR “ORIGIN” FOR THE PURPOSE OF FAITH!! If someone can -in sincerity- doubt the reality that the above evidences point to, then they can just as well question/doubt anything at all, even their own existence… but then, SO WHAT? I don’t bother with these kind of people; their problem is not their mind… it is their heart (if you know what I mean). Indeed, most atheists (not all) will not give Christianity a chance, and do everything they can to prevent others that chance. (One reason is that the confuse Catholicism with Biblical Christianity, when it’s not!)

Anyway max, I hope I’ve been of help to you. Your soul is precious to The Lord and to your self, so do what is best for it.
Alex
Ps. There is “questionable” material/arguments, but those cannot negate the “unquestionable” ones, which we should start our search for the truth from!!
May God give His increase.

Validation of faith in terms of reason and the material is questionable.

Faith, I have heard people say, is just that. Faith. Transcendent reality is inherently a matter of faith. Beyond the material and reason.

Isn’t faith one of the fundamental concepts of religion.

I agree we have no absolute proof of evolution or for that matter anything.

We have different degrees of certainty, based on our understanding.

Validation of faith in terms of human reasoning and the material universe, is questionable.

Faith, I have heard people say, is just that. Faith. Transcendent reality is inherently a matter of faith. Beyond human reasoning and the material universe.

Isn’t faith one of the fundamental concepts of religion.

WTF, I come across as a narrow minded square……>/,l’! lol

///
Read again what I have writtten (three “comments”)and give time to the links. Then you will understand how surpised I am about what you write…! I don’t do what you say. And I probably can’t convince you “///” you’ve no idea (seeing your 3rd paragraph..). You sound like a young person who in ignorance is sure it is how he says it is. Concerning your last paragraph, “science” is definitely not the one to point the finger!! Way too often its claims are ridiculously silly while at other times (many times)they are simply proven wrong by someone who finally speaks out. On the other hand, while some accuse the Bible of being obsolete, in time, they are always proven wrong or are shown that there can be another scientific explanation, one that gives particular Bible claims the benefit of a doubt. But don’t take my word for it. Do your sincere “empty cup” research, amd see what you’ll find.

Oh and to Max WAYYY up when you addressed me.

I completely agree with those statements.

my alluding to a belief in a greater consciousness, is simply that. … A belief of mine that has no real foundation besides a thought and a gut feeling, I would never let it affect my train of logical thought.

Though, I am not saying this consciousness has to be “god” I simply mean that there is more out there than we, in the form of a Homo sapien sapien, will never know of because it is simply beyond our capability to observe it or understand it. It could be entire dimensions of worlds of other sentient beings, it could be a single consciousness, I am happy to say I have no firm Idea and I have no need to fill that gap of knowledge in a hurry with unfounded beliefs.

Vilya, I am trying to get my answer through. It is probably seen a spam again…

Max
Thats true Max, lol, to be honest you sound exactly like my best friend, in that comment. any way lol. Yes degree of certainty is very important, especially in circumstances like these where its impossible to know with 100% certainty what really happened. Though to me there is an elegant beauty to The Survival of the Fittest idea, it “fits” with the world. VERY simple systems, working together, in harmony, that just works. I do not know how to describe it properly but it fits is the best way I can say it. On the other hand as I said simple day to day events can be extrapolated to prove Darwinian theory as well.

Alex
Can’t wait man, I know I come across as a bit harsh but as I said in another set of comments, I am happy to hear rebuttals to my ideas because I know I do not know everything, there is always the chance I am wrong and listening (or reading in this case) to people refute my idea helps me refine or even change my ideas, again hope I am not too harsh and can’t wait to hear your ideas.

Vilya,
to begin with, thanks for your time. My answer to you will be in 3 to 5 parts since I can’t send the whole thing, as Vlatko informed me. Now, following, I have some of your many statements, that -sorry to say- either have nothing to do with what I say, nor with the facts. I will just touch upon them and ask of you to do the rest…

1)“You kept saying at one point that Christianity gives you rational reasons to believe, but NO where have you shown this.”
Both parts of this statement are incorrect. I already gave 2-3 rational reasons to believe. You are free to carefully read again the above comments with my name. But I have a question for you to think about: What -as you say- would a “rational reason to believe” look like?

2)“One of the most insane things to me is that quite a few times you imply that science is wrong so Christianity is right”
Again, you are wrong. What I do say is that evolutionists are wrong, and that pseudo-science is wrong, as well as that science was been wrong many times. I never said a) “science is wrong…” b) “…so Christianity is right”. This is the “quick” prejudice thinking I always come up against. Especially me, don’t try to put me on the other side of the fence, because I am a just person and will admit to anything 100% scientific.

3) “I have read so many versions of the Bible it made my head spin, oddly enough its very poetic and the verse amazing…”
Vilya I have to be honest with on your comments. I am 100% sure you have not read “so many versions of the Bible” as you proclaim. You have not even read the whole Bible (any Bible) even once, but you have read books that presented Bible passages and maybe took a look at some versions as those books inspired you to. I know you will probably say I’m wrong. You have the right to do so of course. The question is, should you?? (No need to comment on this.)

4) “THE ONLY reason you can say Christianity is correct and non of the others are, is through faith which is by its definition illogical…”
I have already clearly shown the opposite regarding faith and logic in my comments to Max.

5) “There are so many “facts” in the bible that even the most devout of christians cannot deny are false…
Really? Give me your best shot. But when you do and I answer it, will that make any difference to you? This is a good question that I ask myself when I reply to atheists, one, you should ask yourself.

(world being flat, many others)…
About the world being flat, the Bible says no such thing but the opposite.

…and there is no science or scientific thought to be found anywhere within…”
No Vilya, you were misled to accept this. Keep in mind that indeed the Bible is not a science book, although it doesn’t go against scientific fact (I said fact not fiction); on the contrary.

6) “Now the fact that Sodom and Gomorrah existed was never questioned,…
Yes, it was.
(You continue the sentence:)
…the fact that there are signs of fireballs hitting the city … Um one of the most popular weapons in siege warfare were catapults throwing large rocks wrapped in cloth that was set on fire … sooo there you have a fireball.”
No Vilya, not just fireballs. You did not see the videos on the links nor did you give proper attention to the particular details of my comment. At least give time to understand completely my argument before commenting on it (or should I say “trash my argument” -although probably without intention.). I wrote:
(now with exclamations)
“The fact that we read: Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone (!) and fire (!) from the LORD out of heaven;
…and then find in that place such (!) “balls of fire”…” (see the link and realize the details mnetioned.)

7) “You say science flushed observation down the drain…”
No Vilya, I didn’t. What I said is:
“Science cannot flush observation down the toilet!”
Does anyone disagree? No. -I said this because many scientists disregard what they observe in order to build a case based on speculation.

“Where on earth do you see intelligence coming from a previous form of intelligence.”
Oh please don’t say things like this. I won’t even comment on it.

9)”…so .. without the addition of god there is no way to observe that intelligence comes from another form of intelligence,”
a) We observe intelligence coming from intelligence (just a fact, ask anyone if you have to…). b) we have no reason (based on our observation) to believe that the first man/woman did not come from another intelligence. c) we have no indication for anything else, nor is it reasonable to proclaim otherwise [I mean think about it: the first form of intelligence came from non-intelligence?? JUST SILLY!]. d) naming the intelligence man came from: “God”, does not really matter at this point. What matters is that we came from an intelligence, because observation and logic (without any use of The Bible, or any scientific speculation/theory/religion) leads to this as the best theory!!!!!!!!!!! (Much much much more can be said on this!)

10) “you cannot use theoretically “observing” god to prove that the same god exists … cuz that’s just silly.”
If I understood you correctly, then my answer to this is: a) I did not speak about “theoretically observing God”. b) I did speak about strong indications/evidence pointing to Him.
(Second part coming up)

(Third and last part for Vilya)
14) “Mark Mathew Luke and John all never knew or met Jesus or each other since in order they died before the other was born …
Do your research Vilya. You sound really ignorant. Sorry, but I mean your wasting space here and time. (bad sentence as well)
(You continue)
… and besides the discrepancies in each of their stories one can find many indications of why a new version was needed, to be more relevant to the time that the writer was in.”
There are discrepancies but there is no compromising of the messages of The Bible. This is what you need to find out. There are also seeming discrepancies due to the readers arrogance or/and ignorance. Discrepancies also serve purposes…

But I’ll tell you this, even in the presence of discrepancies, all the rest still point to the reality of The God of The Bible!! Mistakes cannot due away with truth. Be objective about it, if you consider your self an honest researcher.
The end.
Vilya, please be more careful when reading my stuff (I answered you on Zeitgeist:Addendum as well). Regarding the rest of what you write, I felt that there was no need to waste more space here since a) I have already answered some of them in previous comments, b) no time to get into the all-time-classic confusion (not intent to insult you) of Christian religion and Biblical Christianity (two different things -learn about that) c) the part about why choose Christianity over other religions, well, for now, that’s for you to find out (but you have to sincerely want to, right?). But I’ll give you a good clue: It is in its core the only sign on the road inspired by God to show the reality of man, life and death. I know you won’t take my word for it, and you shouldn’t, and I sincerely don’t want you too. I my self have passed through Budhism, Islam, and my knowledge and experience (!) simply came to the point of yelling out: Christ is really The Son of the God of The Bible. So, don’t waste your time my friend, check it out. -A question for you to think about (I don’t want an answer): Can the arguments you have against Christianity (God, The Bible, Christians, etc.) be refuted -to a good degree- by… you? Or, by others? If so, you are wasting precious time at the expense of your eternal soul. Don’t hate me, I’m just sounding the alarm, because I SEE THE DANGER AHEAD.

Wholeheartedly, may The Lord, awaken you to His truth. Would you like that? ASK IT OF HIM IN SIMPLE CHILD LIKE FAITH.
Alex
Ps. 1) I persist that you read all my comments again (maybe better if copy/pasting them on a separate file) and give good time and thought to them as well as to the videos and the articles in the links I provided, because I don’t believe you have. If you answer in a manner that proves you did not give proper time to what I say, I will not answer you. You can then say what you like.
2) Max, I agree with you that the degree of certainty on the origins of life is something very important. But I really can’t see how in the light of evidence you consider evolution the best theory. I JUST CAN’T, and I have read much on evolution. I believe that for some reason you are not seeing the arguments coming from all scientific fields that blow evolution out the map (I can give you such links if you want), meanwhile ignoring the arguments that support intelligent design and creationism, just because they are not made by evolutionists. If you have something against the Bible, that doesn’t mean you should -right of the bat- see whatever IDs and creationists claim as being wrong, just because propaganda says so. Keep in mind that a great many evolutionists see great flaws in their theory, and more and more openly admit so. You can find on the internet many such statements (and not taken out of context!).

Vilya,

Thanks.

Its interesting that feedback plays a roll in many organic and non organic systems. There appears to be a strong connection of iteration, feed back and the apparent complexity within systems. A simple example would be a Mandelbrot set. Evolution is an elegant example, I think.

We have degrees of certainty in respect of evolution and creationism.

the degree of certainty for creationism:-

1. The earth was created and is less than 15,000 years old.
2. All life forms were created, and do not evolve.
3. 1 Bible
4. A transcendent reality

the degree of certainty for evolution:-

1. Fossil record.
2. Radio isotope dating.
3. A large amount of cross referenced data.
4. Extinction.

I prefer to keep the number of my premises in single digits as it wastes less time.

‘Can the arguments you have against Christianity (God, The Bible, Christians, etc.) be refuted -to a good degree- by… you? Or, by others?’

transposing that:-

Can the arguments you have in support of faith (God, The Bible, Christians, etc.) be validated -to a good degree- by… you? Or, by others?

please stop all these stupidity and nonsense.. we are all dumb idiots and morons… numbers are infinite and universe is so big for us to comprehend, diving like a toad in an ocean, or putting a light bulb on an evening sky… we can be dumb and idiots but please don’t be a hypocrite like the one who made this film.. my religion is to do Good..

Nameless, hi!
1) The truth is, there are way better things to do then answering evolutionists and atheists, and providing all these links. BUT, you’re misunderstanding my purposes. I am not doing it, just to support the reality of The Creator! Why would I do that?? No, I am doing it so people who have not heard the other side, or are misinformed, and are sincere in their quest for truth,would get a chance to hear the other side and see that things are not as atheist and evolutionists say. But again, why would I do that, right? Because I believe that people who will not accept Christ as their Lord and Saviour will go to hell. False-arguments keep people in the dark… but people need light more than they know, many times more than they want! This “nameless” is my motivation (how it came about is a long story). Anyway, if you understand my motivation, you will understand why I go to the hassle.
2)I agree that no knowledge can quench the thirst of a person who thinks. And this is not Christianity’s purpose. Christians themselves have many questions, the difference is that they know (believe it or not!) their questions will be answered one Day. Yes, then our thirst will ceaze. We will know all things. But till then, my motivation and my questions serve their purposes.
As you see, I agree with what you say, so I have nothing else to comment on.
Ps. How do you know that I don’t help the needy with the same zeal? And don’t do other constructive things? What I do here is just one more part of my life.
God bless you Nameless. Really.

Max,
yes, I agree, but it’s ok. I know it comes with the territory.
I’ve answered all your views/comments, but I can’t get it through again due to the links I provide. I informed Vlatko, and I am waiting for his help, so patience. I will make an effort to not put so many links, but I know they’re useful and time saving for me. Besides, I clearly said what I believe you (anybody) needed to hear, so most likely, my time is up here. So Max, wait for my answer. If we can’t get it through, you can ask Vlatko for my email address. Write me and I will send you my answer. Or ask Vlatko to send me your email address. (But wait a couple of days, it might get through.)
“See” you.

(Part 4 for Max)
Having dealt with all your comments, I’ll add some other interesting facts:
“EVOLUTION BY CHANCE IS MATHEMATICAL NONSENSE. We have seen that we have to test everything as the Bible says so let’s do that. If you believe in evolution then you believe that given enough time, chance can produce anything; spiders, dogs, cats, bees, people, you and me. In one school “science” text book it actually stated that given enough time, a monkey tapping away at a typewriter would eventually write words, sentences and even whole books. Now that is quite disgraceful to fill young minds with such rubbish. David C C Watson did as the Bible said and tested that and I relay here what he came up with:
A typewriter has 60 keys. To produce the word “PEANUT” by chance:-
To hit the letter “P” would be a 1 in 60 chance.
To hit the letters “PE” in that order would be a 1 in 60 x 1 in 60 = 1 in 3,600 chance.
To produce the word “PEANUT” would be a 1 in 46,656,000,000 chance.
If our Darwinian monkey typed at the rate of 3 letters per second it would take 450 years to produce “PEANUT”.
To type the phrase “PEANUTS AND TYPEWRITERS” (23 letters and spaces) would take 1,000,000 monkeys over 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years each typing at a rate of 3 letters per second. This time period is 100, 000,000,000,000,000 times as long as the evolutionist’s supposed age of the earth of 4,500,000,000 years!
Going back to that text book: How long would it take that monkey typing at 3 letters per second to write a complete book? Well, I’ll leave you to work that out. How far would the zeros stretch around the world?
Now be honest with yourself. How long do you think it would take the earth and universe to form by chance?
THEY SAY CHANCE IS A FINE THING – WELL IT IS UNTIL SOMEONE WORKS IT OUT! DO YOU REALLY THINK PURE CHANCE FORMED US? IT IS MATHEMATICALLY UNREASONABLE TO THINK THIS!

MATHEMATICS REALLY DO PROVE THAT EVOLUTION IS NONSENSE.
Charles Eugene Guye, a Swiss mathematician, has calculated the chances of a single molecule of a protein-like substance being formed by accident at 10/320 to 1. That means that the odds against even one molecule evolving would be: 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000,000… + many, many zeros.
Doctor Meuller, another mathematician, estimated the probability of one horse evolving at 1 in 1 followed by 1 million zeros. Now I’m not about to try typing a million zeros, much as I would like to make the point as strongly as possible. The above 320 were enough! This would be a thousand, thousand zeros that would fill 15 A4 pages. Then our horse would need a female horse…. etc…. etc. Go on – admit it is nonsense!”

Of course Max, I agree with him: “it is nonsense!”

For Max
1) You write:
“We have degrees of certainty in respect of evolution and creationism.
the degree of certainty for creationism:-
1. The earth was created and is less than 15,000 years old.
2. All life forms were created, and do not evolve.
3. 1 Bible
4. A transcendent reality
the degree of certainty for evolution:-
1. Fossil record.
2. Radio isotope dating.
3. A large amount of cross referenced data.
4. Extinction.
I prefer to keep the number of my premises in single digits as it wastes less time.”
This is just how evolutionists “put it out there”. Can anyone see anything wrong with this picture?? Max you are saying that evolution is based on science while creationism isn’t (this is the same lollipop that evolutionists lick all the time). Are you telling me that all that is said in the links that follow are wrong?? All? Really?? -Anything evolutionists dish out can be refuted by ID/creationists. This alone is reason to check out -at least- the other side.

Alex,

We could both post links for a long time, I for one would like to hear your own thoughts and I sure you would like to hear mine.

1.In Radio isotope dating your link stated:-

PROBLEM: One can almost never know with absolute certainty how much radioactive or daughter substance was present at the start.

The great advantage of uranium-lead dating is that any sample provides two clocks, one based on uranium-235’s decay to lead-207 with a half-life of about 700 million years, and one based on uranium-238’s decay to lead-206 with a half-life of about 4.5 billion years, providing a built-in cross-check that allows accurate determination of the age of the sample even if some of the lead has been lost. This can be seen in the concordia diagram, where the samples plot along an errochron (straight line) which intersects the concordia curve at the age of the sample.

2. The question of evolution

Domestic animals and arable crops are far removed genetically from their ancestors, the environment has the same effect as selective breeding. Viruses and bacteria bacteria develop resistance to drugs because of natural selection.

3. Your right you don’t have to prove anything

4. As I have said, degree of certainty is an important concept.

5. Creative mathematics, these figure have little meaning without the mathematical model used to calculate them. And monkeys with typewriters are not analogous to the processes of biochemistry.

You seem to fill your posts with bible quotes, links, dubious claims and personal incredulity. Nothing you have said has reasonable degree of certainty over evolution.

There is a vast amount of cross referenced data, most of which indicates that the earth was not created. And is far older than the biblical account of the age of the earth.

Max you write:
“Your right you don’t have to prove anything”
What do you mean I am right?? No, I wouldn’t be right if I said something like that, and I never did. Where did you get this idea????????
Christians -the ones that love to think- will never tell anyone:”You don’t have to prove anything when it comes to your belief!” Of course I do, and for 2 reasons:
1)If I don’t, I would be equating my belief with someone who -with no evidence/indications- just believes in the tooth fairy? Just silly to say the least! So, by proving the reality of the various aspects of my faith, I am -by the way- actually proving that a) I’m reasonable, thinking, logical, rational person(not foolish sheep for slaughter), and that b) logic thinking, evidence, strong indication (call it what you like) are NO contradiction to Christianity. That one can have a great degree of certainty when it comes to Christinity. Also that c) my faith IS a reality not fiction. 2)If I don’t try to prove my faith, I cannot help my fellowman put his obstacles aside in order to see Cristianity under the correct light and thus have a chance to accept The Saviour and escape eternal damnation.
Max, listen carefully to the following:
Personally, for me, I don’t need any evidence at all for my faith!! But what do I mean by that? I mean Christ a)has been revealed to me, and b) is my experience since then. This is why Christians insist on their faith. They don’t mention this of course, because this is not an argument that bears any weight in a debate and they will just be mocked. Therefore, if you take the Bible out of the picture, my faith in Christ will remain exactly the same. The same is true if you take all the evidence I provide for His existence, the Bible truthfulness, etc. out of my brain, again, my faith will be the same. My faith in His reality is sealed by His revelation in me and my experiences. What I am getting at is, that the evidence I bring you, is to a) remove obstacles from your brain b)place objective factors that point to Him, but not to reveal Christ in your spirit; that is God’s job. If you allow me (!!) to accomplish those two, through the use of logic and facts, this means you are sincere in your quest for the truth. THEN God will see this, and will visit you, visit your spirit, and seal His existence by His revelation in your spirit. This, does not mean you will follow Him, but that you most likely will. I Have heard people tell me: “I DON’T KNOW WHY, I JUST KNOW that what you are saying is the truth, BUT, I cannot leave the pleasures of life (all kinds: cheating on my husband, premarital sex, pedophilism, homosexuality, lying, being glorified in sin, making money at the expense of others, etc.) and follow Christ.”
You are always left with the choice Max to follow or not to follow. I hope I was clear enough on the issue of “proving God to others”.

You know there’s something fishy about this film when 8:29 into it, for some reason they try to smear Edward Carpenter claiming he is a homosexual, as if this somehow refutes his credibility and should not be taken seriously, but i guess the target audience is aimed at Christians

Alex,
I am very happy for you. But I think that we will just have to disagree with each other.

Thank you Alex for you time in placing your rebuttals to my points disagreeing with you.

When we speak of logic, in science, we mean not only things that make sense but we must have some sort of solid proof behind our “logic”.

You keep posting links with vids and documents that “prove” you are right, but when we disagree with them, it cannot be that we read them or looked at it and thought that they were wrong because we have seen evidence disproving them, or that they do not use actual science to prove their views… It simply had to be, we did not take the time to read it. You even say that there is no chance I read the Bible, even though you don’t know me. You continuously state that I am not reading what you write properly, while you are not only taking some of my statements out of context but you do not even try to see the science behind the ideas that I put forward. sigh

There is no sense to this, the Bible is merely a bunch of words that you twist to make it seem correct in almost any way … please note the use of almost. But in the end .. facts will prevail, that is why, as more people are educated more people leave the church, why do you think there are so many people fighting to have “christian schools”, it is because they know that if children are exposed to all of the information on pretty much any subject of thought, the Bible’s view would be the least likely choice as their opinion.

Any way on and on I can go but we have to agree to disagree, since no matter how open I am to your points of view .. you are not to mine, and even belittle my intelligence, so whats the point of trying to show you my point of view if you have no respect for it. Sadly this is the problem when talking to almost any zealot.

Just a footnote: I have always been interested in Religion and while having taken classes in religion and different religions at a University level, I also attended Church and sunday school, RC, Pentecostal, went to a Presbyterian high school, and to a few Evangelist conventions, just to observe for myself what the fuss was all about. During all of this especially Sunday School when I was younger of course I read the Bible.. lol .. and as I said Many many versions… Just because I disagree with it does not mean I did not read it.

I have read, besides the Bible(S), the Koran(Quoran), and so much more from many other religions and other philosophical viewpoints, through this and my own research into science, (biology chemistry physics Mathematics) I have formed my own Ideas on the world, but though I am strong in these Ideas I am not arrogant enough to believe that I possess the only truth.
As well, Watch “Who wrote the Bible?” “The god who wasn’t there” and even “The Root of all Evil”. Though I do not agree completely with all the views presented in these Documentaries or even how it was presented in some cases, There is much solid unquestionable Science within them.

Is the new test. n old test. considered scholarly sources? lol… Think about it, this author refuted zeitgiest using the bible alone, i’m sorry but i watched this hoping to see some good rebutz and i got nothing out of it. If you believe that there is one absolute God, that created the heavens and the earth blah blah blah, that God is all knowing, all powerful, would God not create the heavens and the earth with his own devine energy? wouldn’t that mean that the devil and god are both of the same entity? (ying-yang) how would God, creater of the universe damn us by putting us on this planet ruled by satan? isn’t he a forgiving God? y did he damn his own angel? i dunno the bible is a nice bed time story, but its really wishy washy (flip flopping) in the sense that God is not a constant being, but an emotional creature bounded by human characterists. only human beings would give such a devine entity human characteristics… all in all… religion is a waste of time… just remember the fundamentals… DO GOOD AND BE A GOOD PERSON ALWAYS!!! don’t let u’re 5 senses run you into temptation, let u’re sub consious, your mind and intelect be your guide!

quote form above:

“if you know old fary tales like from the grim brothers, youl find that the storys are not, true, but exaturatet storys, with a hidden, true meaning.”

witch walt- disney and hollywood has corupted by the way

i thing that the pearson who wrote Zietgeist is much more in “the game” that the goverment wants him to be in, that he knows………hope im wrong

will china be the next target by the way?…..hope im wrong

Vilya,
I can comment on all your new comments, but no need, since I believe my message was clear and my arguments were solid (!) either showing the truth or/and the scientific possibility of another side of the story (which of course you say has been disproved… yeah right!). I will respond though for the last time to one of your statements:
“we must have some sort of solid proof behind our “logic”.”
Other than the links, you know… I DID GIVE SOLID PROOFS (remember: one analyzed prophecy, math, Sodom and Gomorah, scientific truths found in Scripture, facts from observation), which -for at least here- all together (!) do amount (!) to a very strong indication/evidence/proof (!) for the Biblical case. With no intent to insult any one but just to speak the truth, sorry to say (I must), that if anyone honestly can’t see the solidity of the above proofs, he just has a very low capacity of thinking (I honestly can’t reason it any other way); there will also be of course those who simply lie to themselves. I mean, in simple terms, “solid proof” is anything that leads to the greatest degree of certainty… I did provide that. No one can actually disprove the above weight of the facts mentioned in the parenthesis above and what reality they point to…. so, why must they be wrong no matter what!?? I’ll tell you why; some people are afraid of a God who will judge them as being guilty, since they -deep down- know they are. But, the good news is that if you -in repentance and faith- devote yourself to Christ He will remove your sins from His sight and save you eternally.
Now, to whom it may concern:
In closing I would like to say, that Zeitgeist refuted, gives the facts, where “Zeitgeist the movie”, is based on wishful speculation (I mean, see it again). There is nothing historically accurate about it that disproves the New Testament claims (Refuted makes this point, and many books on the issue as well). Having said that, I have to point out that no refutation of the film actually took place. Also, I noticed so many really ridiculous ideas on this thread as in all in which atheists write on, like:
* Religion is for crazy people
* That Zeitgeist refuted was the worst documentary on here
* Accusation of using circular reasoning as proof (!) in the documentary, when there was non. (Can some of you at least see that most are not even able to listen to what is said, that they are just knocking it for the knock!)
* The film did nothing to support it’s claims.
* That Christians don’t think for themselves.
* The film should be taken out form this site.
* Organized religion kills (therefore is always killing even today / when was the last time you saw Christianity kill? (Please use your brain instead of letting other people waste it. I’m so tired of all these lies, by hatred filled people.)-Other than that, New Testament Christianity never killed).
* It is filled with irrational notions.
* That the film was biased because it was made by Christians (Note: 1) Christian may make mistakes but they don’t lie when they are making their case [by rule!!!] 2) atheists on the other side… well, just read most of the above comments and figure it out. –I my self has proved that Zeitgeist was foolish and openly biased from the beginning!- read that particular comment again if you like.)
* The film… “fails to tickle the imagination, much like Christianity fails and has always failed in my mind to marry the supernatural with the logical.”
And a lot more where that came from.
Also I noticed:
Hatred, frivolousness, arbitrariness, foolish talk, fascism, vengeance, misrepresentation, immaturity, carelessness, gullibility, ignorance, arrogance, in most of those who “disliked” Refuted, in various degrees of course. There were of course those who had a different spirit, but they weren’t many; they never are.
So, you can say all you want now without my “close minded unscieniftic Christian faith”. But while you’re at it, do remember what has been said so far.
May God give His increase, to all who want it and think they can handle it, an increase that will lead you to His salvation in time.
In Christ,
Alex
PS. 1) If someone wants, they can get my email form Vlatko. Tell him to see the comment “attached” to the date on this post, for my permission.
2) Take Oppono astos (all the way up there) advice and read “Shattering the Christ Myth” by James Patrick Holding, if you need more refutation, and are not afraid of it.

@Alex : Because I believe that people who will not accept Christ as their Lord and Saviour will go to hell. False-arguments keep people in the dark… but people need light more than they know,

—————————————

Seriously you need to rethink on what you publicly say dude. Do you know what does your above statement sound like ? – A completely indoctrinated christian suicide bomber(which I seriously hope you are not). The exact same philosophy makes a muslim suicide bomber blow up people shouting “allah ho akbar” thinking he is gona end up in ” jannat” (heaven) instead of hell because he is killing the kafirs(infidels) who doesnt believe in Allah. The same view makes a Hindu zionist burn mosques because they think they will be getting a place in the “swarg”(heaven) because he is terminating those who doesnt believe in Lord Krishna. Tell me dude have you ever faced a religious riot infront of your face ????

Forgive me for being an unnecessary literalist over here but on a close examination of what you say these literal meanings should be derived according to your above believe:

1. If I am a Hindu and I dont believe in Christ or hell of Lucifer then I’m heading for the hell.
2. If I am a Muslim and I dont believe in Christ then again I am doomed for hell.
3. If I am a Buddhist and I believe in karma , but not in Christ and Lucifer then again I am going to hell.
4. If I am anything other than a devout christian , then again I am doomed right ??

Its thoughts like these that has made this planet such a miserable place for centuries. I have nothing in particular against Christianity or Christ. Neither against any religion
for a matter of fact. But I didnt find anything unsurprising about your statements over here. Because most of them are just the same old stock statements which I keep on hearing from fundamentalists of other religion too. Everyone claims that their god is the final truth and their cause is worthier than any other form of belief system or religion. Its all perception to be precise. I know today you may not kill a person because he/she is not a christian but I think theres a good chance that you will kill people if you are commanded by the vatican pope or some high priest if they find a threat to the survival of Christianity. If you dont obey , you know will be condemned to hell where Luc and company will rip your soul apart till eternity. This is just a small analogy.

Infact its common for every religiously devout person. And it all makes perfect sense because at the end of the day they all suffer from different manifestation of the same psychic problem which is deep imprinted in their minds since childhood. You know its called insecurity. Insecurity gives birth to a form of a psychological safety which even the most intellectual and intelligent humans submit themselves to it.Life is not that easy neither its so simple to understand everything about it when there are ups and downs while much of the actual cause of happenings in a person’s life both individually and its relation to the natural environment collectively on a whole is sometimes beyond the scope of
understanding by a single or a group of individual (some call it chaos theory). Thus the mind being a reflex organ reacts to everything when it fails to understand this phenomenon because of the limited scope of evidence and logical reasoning thereby giving birth to altered state of mind(which is mostly guided by the unconscious part of the mind). This altered state creates a series of hypothetical scenarios of understanding complex issues by a set of moral right/wrong algorithm. After it has formulated a
satisfactory lists of understandings it starts making a finalized secured zone which is then taken over the by the subconscious mind.

Now this subconscious mind guides most of the day-to-day activity of the person (which even none of us are aware of). Thus if something that happens which is beyond the grab of the subconscious , both hemispheres of the brain(right & left) starts off in a disharmony between themselves. This is where every individual on earth encounters a dual personality within themselves. When unable to cope up with this disharmony, the mind creates something which is called “God” , that ultimately acts a resolver to the right and left brain conflicts. Now this “God” can be interpreted at a different level since this (left/right)brain disharmony itself occurs at a different level from person to person.

For some “god” means source of life. For some it becomes “energy that guides all life forms”. For some its omnipresence. For some god turns out to be natural elements sun,fire,water,air, etc. Then for some it becomes a idol looking similar to a human. For some its the collective consciousness of the world. <– Uptill here things are fine and not catastrophic.

Things start getting worse when this least understandable conflict zone in the mind takes over the DPU (desire processing unit) of the brain. It results in creating a pseudo scientific solution in a much entrenched sub conscious mind.Out here I will like to mention something out of the box. "Since everything is made up of same elementary particles the laws of physics governing them are the same. As such to every action , there always lies an equal and opposite reaction."
The mind creates its own freedom space and moral fence. This creation process of freedom space and moral fence is inordinately subjective and as such it differs again at different levels. But the root of this entire process is based on a simple hypothesis of something from a extremely scientific and epistemological standpoint. Thus its bound to be erroneous and fallible. Not to mention this is just one part of whole duality phenomenon inside us (political ideologies,formation of laws,spirituality,etc).

Now can you picture this whole process on a massive scale of all humans on earth ? We get generations after generations with a fundamentally flawed understanding of life.

Everything about religion is directly proportional to the conflict within. Stop gathering answers from outside and ask within yourself. Its the only place you will ever find the truth. We are made up of the elementary particles that contains all the answers of universe. We ourseleves hold the truth inside us. Our body is made up of atoms and subatomic particles which are nothing but empty packets of enegry.Lets apply a little physics here again.Energy can never be created nor destroyed. It only undergoes from one form of enegery to other. The how come life is born and life is dead. Doesnt that mean it only undergoes from one form of life to another.
People fear to look inside them because it ultimately holds the answer to everything about everything.

If you closely study all the religions they all share a huge list of similar ideologies. Ever wondered why ?

At the same time so many killings in the name of God has happened all through out history. Ever wondered why ?

At the same time there have been countless good deeds by some of the people of all religion all through out history. Ever wondered why ?

Why do all religion speak of a promised land ? Doesnt that thing sounds similar to the "finalized secured zone" ?

You say others are misinformed over here and you are doing your best to make them realize the presence of Christ , just incase when the judgment day comes they dont end up in hell. I appreciate your good will for others. But it has to be based on a foundation of absolute universal truth which no one is aware of spare the links that you have posted over here. On this whole conversation If you have noticed , I have not even raised one single point from the documentary zeitgeist refuted and I believe my personal opinion about it is irrelevant of what the current conversation is between us.

Alex …:) I was gonna say a few things but Nameless just laid down some actual thought provoking ideas that I need to do some reading on .. so good luck with the Christ thing, hope when they ask you to kill Muslims you say no.

lol sorry, cannot help it just 2 things:
No matter where you look the vast majority of “Proof” of the Bible comes from the bible itself and therefor is scientifically unreliable. While there are some proofs for statements within the Bible that come from a scientific source, there is a Major Flaw within any of it … The Bible is supposed to be the Unquestioned word of God, the “Truth”, so if one single idea is proven wrong, then it cannot be the Word of God, and everything in it can be questioned, Then It will simple be what it should be a good story that helps teach morals.
One other thing you say that Christianity has not killed anyone in years, that’s laughable. Where do you think America gets most of its American Troops from (as distinct from the people that join the army to become American). Most of these guys are Church boys who are encouraged by their town church to Join the Crusade against the “Terrorists” meaning go kill the Muslims. Why do you think Governments worry about the “Bible Vote” in America, do you think Bush actually became religious when he proclaimed his faith just a couple months before the elections against Kelly? The Government uses the Bible belt of America to feed its Army with personnel with the preachers teaching the young men that that is the right path, the Christian path, … thus Christianity is used to increase the American Troops … to kill people. IF you dont believe me you really are in denial, since this is not even a conspiracy theory … lol .. watch Jesus Camp, watch videos by the Preacher who was Bush’s consultant they do not even attempt to hide the fact that they are encouraging young boys and girls to join the Army … using the Bible.

Any way, again good luck with Christianity, once your happy that’s mostly what counts. Oh and if by chance your in the sect of Christianity that thinks Armageddon is 2012, keep in contact with me so you can give me all your “earthly belongings” before hand since according to your STRONG belief your not going to be needing them, if not well never mind.

Nameless, your idea on the need of a God figure being formed because of the conflict between the left and right hemispheres of the brain is very interesting and something I’m definitely going to read up on it.

Ajay, great point, something I forgot to add in my comments … the human nature of the Christian god … why would something greater than us to the point of creating us, be pretty much just like us, lol even to the point of childish … throwing tantrums and the like.

Max, why try man lol ..:) but I agree as I said before Faith by its mere nature is Illogical. Once there is logic behind it, it is no longer Faith, it is a belief.

Is is really a great temptation (I mean tie me down!) not to answer your comments, but it is not necessary any longer, especially when I read things like this: The Bible is supposed to be the Unquestioned word of God. Oh my friend how little you know, but this mistake of yours comes from idiotic comments coming from… Christians. Yes, you heard right. Or the other one: “the vast majority of “Proof” of the Bible comes from the bible itself and therefor is scientifically unreliable”. Wow, what an objective scientific thought! But anyway guys, God bless you!
Ps. 1)Oh and do “read up” on the right and left hemisphere being the cause of God, you might find more reason to doubt reality. (evolution is so pathetic as an idea: everything must be caused by our brain.)
2)No need to address me anymore unless you want to of course. Whatever makes you happy. As I’ve said, go on without me.

well ancient , history, psykology, phisosophy, astronomy, warfare, and much more is incluted

Man, sometimes this is so entertaining.

I watched the music video/experimental videography “documentary” called “Zeitgeist,” thinking, “Okay, this guy is another one of those conspiracy people.” But I watched the whole thing, thinking he’d eventually make a case. Then, I watched “Zeitgeist: Addendum” so I could understand the revealed agenda – which is little more than a hack revamp of “Star Trek” if you ask me. Then, I thought, “Zeitgeist: Refuted” must be an intelligent discourse and actual refutation of all that whack-job shit. [In my opinion, once you use Bilderberg seriously in a sentence, I'm obligated to roll my eyes at you.] Boy, am I disappointed in having just lost nearly 6 hours of my life. More bullshit. It’s no wonder we are a repressed, lost, lonely society when the only response we can come up with to combat the fanatical dogma pressed upon intelligent, serious people is to throw off the yoke of the World Conspiracy/Ruling Elite/Illuminati/Technorati/Freemasons/Blah Blah Blah… There is no difference between the dogma and doctrine of the worlds’ religions and that of The Venus Project; you just can’t polish a turd.

here is a more posetive story, kind of the same that “refutet ” first part tryed to explain

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-hidden-story-of-jesus/

There are a couple major differences between the zeitgiest movement and world religions. For instance the zietgiest movement doesn’t seek to implement it’s reforms through the use of force; also the Zietgiest films also leave any decisions regarding what to do with the information presented with the individual, many major religions cannot make the same claim.

I think the whole religious issue is a red herring to be frank. The real problem is our “for profit” capitalist society. Whether you agree with the views presented or not, the fractional reserve banking system is a fact, as is the information on the federal reserve.

If a world run by elitist industrialists is your chosen form of governence, don’t worry we’re well on our way. If you have issues with the zietgiest films I would suggest checking out Manufacturing Consent. The information presented is pure academic research and is quite frankly irrefutable from an academic standpoint.

I think that any open minded person that looks objectivly at the world situation must come to the conclusion that we are headed in a bad direction. A society that has profit as it’s sole(soul) motivating factor cannot by definition not be based on class.

Here is my challege to everyone, look up the definitions of democracy and oligarchy and then tell me which system you honestly think you have; is it a system of the people, for the people, by the people with freedom and liberty as it’s motivating factor. Or do we get to select from a small segment of what is obstensibly a seperate ruling or political class to create the illusion of choice?

I doubt the vision of the Venus project can be realised with current technology. Maybe with future technology it may be possible to have a society comprised of completely autonomous individuals who choose to share a collective space.

Punctuated equilibrium may demand it.

how can the capitalistic society be god when 1 procent owns 40 procent.

and i still think all parts are taking the wrong path…

Romel,

Although I do not share your faith, I agree that it is impossible to prove against or for in the question of faith.

Where do you stand in the question of the transcendence of god in relation to the physical universe and human understanding.

Romel, i understand how and like how you neatly set up how religion and science both have a simple meaning in life and can co-exist.. but come on.. why is it so hard for people to accept that we humans are just another mutation form from this beautiful blue planet. that we are and we exist just to exist.. instead of arguing aimlessly at the notion of which is right religion or science. we should finally just stand up and say what can we do to improve our species? what can we do to be faster, smarter, and stronger creatures? because we’re gonna evolve whether anyone likes it or not…

As a pastor, theology professor, and former missionary, I try to be objective. I have read the books ‘The Christ Conspiracy’ (by Acharya S) and the Jesus Mysteries (Freke and Gandy) which says Jesus did not exist and although they do make some interesting points, but ultimately they are inaccurate on some points and not to be taken seriously when they say Jesus did not exist.

Yet at the same time I cannot take this seriously as it has started with its conclusion that everything in the Bible and within Christianity is correct, and then it sets out to find evidence to support its findings. Neither are objective, but both sides are biased and therefore not interested in truth, but only in supporting their own beliefs.

Both are two extremes, but the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Sadly Christianity really is based upon myths, does it mean that Jesus did not exist? No, of course not.

He does exists, but even though the gospels are full of contradictions, at the end of the day what is important is love and that was ultimately what Jesus tried to teach and that is the only things that is important.

Vlatko,

Just wanna say that uv done a great service to enquiring minds by setting up this site! thank you.

People, please! debate is a healthy part of life, however stress (nowadays)reduces longevity, and god supposedly dislikes haters! so every1 is losin out, spread the love damn it! both docu’s (i havent watched em) seem to be propaganda in potent forms. well the tone of convo here suggests it. what has been, the old ideals/ideas, are irrelevant. theyve shaped society and thinking. most new evidence which goes against history books is ignored, many are afraid to suggest findings for fear of ridicule.we should look to immediate future of our species/planet.
people see stuff that science puts down to imagination all the time-scientists wont believe an eyewitness report alot of the time. so most cases of new species are never investigated. take for example giant squid, which were just “sailors tales”.
yet can search for particles that have no mass and cant be seen because they reckon theyll find em. double standards?
based on this, wots to say there aint a God? have they searched? there is too much dismissal based on opinion and status quo, imean wots to say there wasnt an alien race that engineered us, or that god exsist in another plane/dimension-could he even be dark matter?

btw im not a believer, i actually did human bio at a respected uni, but im all for thinkig out the box. the MO of science is still rigid in parts. look for a solution, the ID/evo debate may then be closer to conclusion.

on a lighter note i am taking over the world with my own religion; Rishtianity (see wot i did there?) join and on wedenesdays we will have a sermon,hosted by Your God (thats me, followed by nap time and cake and tea as i tell u how i created existence! PUKKA!lol

Wow see even on hear religion got people getting heated. Face it religion was invented, yes invented a long time ago in order for people to live in harmony with each other. I beleive it was like a moral code with stories of hope and inspiration. It also shows us the great power and wrath that could be used upon us should we not follow the path. But over the years people have seized upon it as a method of control. Its now sold to those out of hope, mentally weak or those who need guidance as they can only follow. Why do think the Christians tried to force their religion on everyone else. So they could take their possesions and control their minds. They were the original corporation and the bible was their product. There is no scientific proof of anything in the bible, wake up.

This is disappointing was hoping they would refute Zeitgeist, not the first 1/3 of it and then not even the film but the authors cited.

They should have named this Zeitgeist: “Rebuked” because you cannot refute theory with faith

I usually don’t even bother to comment about things to do with religion. I would just like to get this out so maybe some confused person reading it may be able to see things a little more clearly. First off , what makes you people think that any scholar today has a better understanding of language then scholars from one two three and four hundred years ago. That part isn’t even important though. Whats important to understand is that Christianity and the Bible are one. Religion and the Bible are not. A religion is based on self, such as the term self righteous. A person assumes they can do something to improve their standing with God. The Bible on the other hand clearly states that man failed that attempt so he sent his son who lived on this earth a perfect life, was crucified, died, rose again in three days, and ascended into heaven. The reason he did it was to pay the debt that man had with God for their sin. Now, you are completely debt free with God if you understand that and believe it. Jesus Christ payed the debt for your sin and all you have to do is accept it. Don’t get pulled into the religious quackery out there and follow God’s word. II Timothy 2:15 – Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Thats all you need to do. Understand that all of the Bible isn’t always talking about you. Much if not most of it is talking about the Jewish people during a time that we no longer live in. Romans-Philemon is directed to the non-jewish people. or in other words books written by the Apostle Paul. Oh yea and about which Bible to use the older the better. The original King James Version is fine. get to far in to the newer bibles and they begin to really distort the whole meaning of the verses and how they relate to one another. I could go on forever but if you have a question just ask me i’ll check back here as i’m sure someone will probably bash me. If you do bash me I won’t reply to you, but if you use common courtesy and talk to me like you would a friend than i’ll reply.And by the way i havent watched this video i’m about to. I have seen zeitegeist though. Zeitegeist is pretty rough stuff. either or , once you truly “get” the bible you’ll understand that there’s no way it was written by anyone but the Spirit of God. If you have a question feel free to ask. I’ve looked for answers my whole life. I may have a few that could help you out.

All religion should not be taken literally but seen as a set of allegories and standards. Ancient peoples used imaginative stories that served a symbolic role on how they should live their lives. At the time, they believed in the supernatural elements of their religions because they had no knowledge of physics and biology. But when evidence comes to refute these claims, and a literal interpretation is maintained, this is when religion becomes a problem.

almost forgot, on a different note, would it be so bad to have a one world government? if humanity is to progress, then we have to change the way we think and it wouold be easier to rise up against one system of tyrany as a whole world of frustrated people, than it is now to rise against a multitude. while man strives to be the bet we will never be it! man has to strive to make humanity the best as a whole, nature will adapt after we have gone and always will, the earth is a living breathing physical form and we are the bacteria, we choose if we are good or bad bacteria and that is as simple as i can explain my thoughts. thank you for reading tis and i hope you read it with love and light in your heart. john

Well said CmCF. Something that bothered me just now !
Our lives are in a finite lifetime. So theoretically a person can commit a finite number of sins.
If the prophetic religion version of God loves us so much , then why will it condemn a sinner to hell for infinity for a finite number of sins committed ???

Nick, you state crap without backing it up, just like all the bible freaks out there. What debt of what sin, may I ask?

No Nameless, go read the New Testament. God is not the devil’s co-worker! The devil himself will wind up in hell (as you might know)! And no, he will not be the boss while he’s there either! He will be suffering as all else.
Then you say “Please can we have a rational discussion over here…” Well, you think… you can?? I ask you this, because there is nothing irrational about the following statement of faith(as you mention it): “All people who except Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior are forgiven their debt forever and are sealed by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ for eternity.”
So Nameless, bias does not make rational thought, irrational.
Also, nor is it irrational for God to throw you in hell… he will do so for very good rational reasons(!), if that’s any comfort for you… But that’s your choice. (Don’t forget that)
Keep in mind that everything you say against him, is not just talk among us, it might be seen (depending) as insults to His face. YOU WOULDN’T WANT THAT. Just warning you pal. It’s your life. Be calm, do your sincere research, and see the evidence with “clean glasses”. Just to help your research, I’ll ask you a question to help you discern (try to) what one of the biggest problem in this “discussion” is: What -for you- exactly, in detail, would proof of His existence, be composed of? Are you looking for that particular proof? If not, you’re just wandering here and there, talking smart alec “ideas”, paretting what other’s have said, and thinking you know how to think, when actually your thinking has no goal (other than to react). Answer the first question to yourself and you’ll have a goal to pursue in your research. Otherwise you’ll be sheep for saughter.
Ps. when atheists or wannabe atheists attack Christianity with words like: “irrational”, “illogical”, “makes no sense”, 99% of the time they are motivated to do so by immature emotional impulses and not by “good thinking”. My advice is that they get a good dictionary, and from then on put these words to good use.
God bless!

Forgive me for mentioning this again, but….

Validation of faith in terms of human reasoning and the material universe, is questionable.

Faith, I have heard people say, is just that. Faith. Transcendent reality is inherently a matter of faith. Beyond human reasoning and the material universe.

Isn’t faith one of the fundamental concepts of religion.

And no Alex…

‘No, this is a type of philosophical thinking that holds back critical thinking, and actually names any evidence for the opposite: “ludicrous”, “nonsense”, “illogical” etc. In down-to-earth-thinking, if a transcendent reality (a God in our case) wants to be validated through various “signs and wonders”in order to lead people to faith towards His Person, what’s to stop Him?? WHY CAN’T THIS BE POSSIBLE? There is no reason Max. Pseudo-science has been on the throne too long, and the worshippers… many!
May God give you His increase.’

…is inadequate. You did not prove the existence of a transcendent reality and you can not prove the existence of a transcendent reality, all you have is faith.

Alex : I ask you this, because there is nothing irrational about the following statement of faith(as you mention it):

“All people who except Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior are forgiven their debt forever and are sealed by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ for eternity.”

Dear Alex , I guess I called up nick(ofcourse theres a possibility of nick and you being the same guy) for a discussion since you are fairly the most hopeless case on this entire website which most rational creatures over here will agree too. I have ventured a lot into the glorious details about prophetic religions in the above posts which I believe you didnt ever bothered to read or even if you did it is quite certain you never went one step forward to research on them , that is ofcourse obvious you just simply cannot do it since they straight away contradict with the bible bullshit you have in your brainwashed mind since your childhood. You can call us by many names say atheist, biased, hypocrites or any flowery word that suits well with your misplaced supremacy but the sad part is you need a life for yourself more than kiss assing your God all day long in the internet and your natural offline life too.

I asked for a rational discussion because that statement by nick simply makes absolute nonsense considering a person from some other religion accepting some other god has nothing do with hell or some fantasy like that,… I mean its sometimes so ridiculous to even to imagine such crapload of imaginative fear kingdom existing in people’s brain that they are scared to death even to question the most simplest forms of human existence.

See a sad thing about a person like you is your view of the universe is so extremely narrowed down by some ancient writings that at a certain point you cant even start thinking
for yourself. Thats when you get a sense of dependency on your priests,bishops or any religious authority over you that has entrenched in your mind so much that even a slightest possibility of them being wrong terrifies you to the deepest core of your mind. But since they are ultimately based on false information and mind control programs, its natural you are bound to react than act accordingly with your reasoning capabilities.

Fear of Hell has drenched you to a point where you cant even think anything as simple a thought as “why god cannot exist”, So its natural on broader topics like moral codes, judgement day and other philosophical foundations you will always tend you refer to your bible than your own rational nature given brain. And guess what theres even a term for such mental disorder …

Here the best part :::::::::::::::
Alex:
—————
Keep in mind that everything you say against him, is not just talk among us, it might be seen (depending) as insults to His face. YOU WOULDN’T WANT THAT. Just warning you pal. It’s your life. Be calm, do your sincere research, and see the evidence with “clean glasses”. Just to help your research, I’ll ask you a question to help you discern (try to) what one of the biggest problem in this “discussion” is: What -for you- exactly, in detail, would proof of His existence, be composed of? Are you looking for that particular proof?
————-

I have never asked for any proof of Christ or Your Christian version of God in my entire discussion … as I simply dont need a proof. I am no atheist and I have stated that earlier. I do have something I believe to be considered from the point of view of faith. But calling it as “God” would again corrupt it ! since God itself is one of the most over used controversial word. I was done with my research long time back and I seriously never needed to refer to any internet links for it. Because quite simply the answer is within you more than anywhere else.

My point of view is well placed and its scope encompasses all forms of human existence in relation to every other beings living and non living on the entire universe. So to be brutally honest I dont even think you are close enough to even start a discussion on the existence of God with us because of your inordinately constricted level of understanding.

I may sound rough and a complete bad ass with zero intolerance at the end of it , but think of it in this way- even though theres a little hope for me that you will even understand a single bit of what I have said so far , yet I have invested my couple of minutes in writing this …because quite simply I feel pity for such insecured existence like yours.

I would rather say “may you find your truest self” than “god bless you”.

Alex,
lol, we can not prove or disprove a transcendent reality. Your asking me what I would consider proof of an unknowable transcendent reality, what, you want me to imagine a proof of of a theory which is by definition, equivocal?

You can not prove the existence of God it is a matter of faith.

Unless of course, your God is not transcendent.

although shitty it still offered more logic than zeitgeist. zeitgeist is the biggest piece of shit i ever heard. Do not believe or taken anything from zeitgeist.

touche’ nameless, you make some good points. I have to add though, The Bible is not just a book. It is the word of God. I don’t just mean the letters in red either. The entire book is inspired by God. No other book can explain it. It explains itself fully and completely.
“This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being”.”In absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God’s existence” – Sir Isaac Newton

Here is what Sir Fred Hoyle, professor of astronomy at Cambridge University said about evolution: “The chance that higher life forms might have emerged in this way is comparable to the chance that a tornado sweeping through a junk yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein”.

“It takes no brains to be an atheist. Any stupid person can deny the existence of a supernatural power because man’s physical senses cannot detect it. But there cannot be ignored the influence of conscience, the respect we feel for the Moral Law, the mystery of first life…or the marvelous order in which the universe moves about us on this earth. All these evidence the handiwork of the beneficent Deity…That Deity is the God of the Bible and of Jesus Christ, His Son”. -Dwight Eisenhower

“All our knowledge is but the knowledge of schoolchildren”. “In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views”. “I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts. The rest are details”.
- Albert Einstein

Darwin wrote, “I was a young man with unformed ideas. I threw out queries, suggestions, wondering all the time over everything; and to my astonishment, the ideas took like wildfire. People made a religion out of them”!

Dr. T.N. Tahmisian of the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission said, “Scientists who go about teaching that evolution is a fact of life are great con-men, and the story they are telling may be the greatest hoax ever. In explaining evolution, we do not have one iota of fact”.

Basically, you either believe in creation or evolution, theirs really no other alternative. Except to believe nothing at all which is simply choosing to not think about any of it. Their are tons of people on both sides of the fence. That’s not saying all people who believe in creation believe in the Bible, but a lot of great minds do believe in creation.
Romans Chapter 10
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

and if you don’t have a Bible, here’s one http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org
This is the only Bible I recommend. Newer Bibles take away the Bible’s ability to translate itself. So only use the Original King James Bible. Not even the new King James Bible has the same meaning in a lot of places.

Ephesians Chapter 4
4[There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

The message of God is not of doom and destruction but one of hope and grace. Good luck to you and any that look to find the truth about this world. I assure you it starts with Romans Chapter 1 verse 1. I recommend reading Genesis first, for the History, Matthew second, to learn about Jesus, and Romans third, for the message of grace and salvation and what role it plays in our lives today.After that you can continue with whatever you like maybe go back to exodus, or read the other accounts of Jesus in Mark, Luke, and John. or continue on after Romans right into the other books written by the apostle Paul who is the apostle to the gentiles. Yep your very own apostle.

Max hi!
1)You write: “…we can not prove or disprove a transcendent reality.”
You just don’t get it. I can’t seem to help you.
2) “Your asking me what I would consider proof of an unknowable transcendent reality, what, you want me to imagine a proof of of a theory which is by definition, equivocal?”
Max, everything at first can be equivocal. This says nothing. This cannot intimidate science. Research must go on and in order to do so, it must start off from somewhere. Hence, when searching for the existence of God, the normal (!) thing to do is to start by using principles/facts relative to things that already exist and applying them to the possibility of something that might exist by the use of good questions.
First we would have to define “God”. We can search to find a God of any definition, this doesn’t mean our finds would meet our definitions. But let’s say we wanted to start with the following definition: God, as an “invisible superior being and creator”; I mean, already The Bible gives us such a definition why not use it to start of with?? Let me elaborate on how we would go at it. The normal thing to do is ask questions like:
1) Is there a reason to search for the existence of a God to begin with? (Answer: Yes. The reason to do so is a)having knowledge of our personal origins and “build” on that accordingly. b) not being left with the most important questions being unanswered [where does life, intelligence/consciousness, the initial cause, come from?]. there are other reasons, but let’s stick to those for now)
2) Can a God exist? (Answer: Possible.)
3) Would “He” be able to come in contact with man? (Answer: Possible.)
4) If a God existed could He be invisible? (Answer: He could be invisible since a) we don’t see Him (if He exists)b) there are invisible forces discerned by their effects e.g. gravity), hence, invisibility, is a possibility.
5) If He came or comes in contact with us, by what senses would we be able to realize His Presence? (Answer: Possibly with some or all of the senses we have. Keep in mind, a)we have no reason to believe the opposite b) Him being a God [intelligent superior being (much more our Creator)] would make Him able to come in contact with our senses if contact was His purpose.)
6)Did all of mankind or at least some of mankind, ever claim they came in contact with such a God? (Answer: Yes they did and they do.)
7) Could their claims be to a good degree scientifically researched/investigated? (Answer: Yes. Note here the following: If science says they didn’t have such experience -when indeed these people are healthy in body and mind- then it is up to science to prove they didn’t have an experience with the higher being they say they did! If they don’t prove this, up to the time the do, they can only say that these people had the experince with such an entity, since these people are proven perfectly sane!! [They are trying to prove it was all in their mind, but they haven't!] At most, right now, they can just resort to -unjustifiably- calling them liars, but not crazy!)
a) What are the tools needed for our quest? (Answer: Observation, good judgement/discernement and logic[leading to sensible questions and sensible answers]) b) Based on these tools, do we have any objective indications of a transcendant being? (Answer: Yes, we do. See my comments/links.)

Considering the above questions(and answers) Max, and many more(!), we will inevitably wind up searching for proof of His existence THAT SOME OR ALL OF OUR SENSES CAN SENSE AND REALIZE. This is the first and most logical step!!
At this point note, that if we find such proof/evidence (of any degree of certainty), we cannot disregard it, just because that proof doesn’t transcend our senses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (If it did “it” wouldn’t be “proof” to us!) This would just be biased, unscientific and down right idiotic!! BUT, if on the other hand we don’t find any evidence that meets our senses, then we can conclude: based on our senses (and the tools mentioned), there is no God!

Then you write the same old chant: “You can not prove the existence of God it is a matter of faith.”
I will just add (…again!), it is a matter of faith based on given infomation which serves as evidence for a particular invisible reality.
Max, I was told of this book that might help you. I have not read it yet but just flipped through some of its pages and sounds real reasonable. You can by it at Amazon (if I remember correctly about 8 dollars…). It’s called: “God’s undertaker” with subtitle: “Has science burried God?” by John C. Lennox (about 180 pages).

Then you add: “Unless of course, your God is not transcendent.”
Him being transcendant Max has nothing to do with Him being incompetent to the point He can’t come in contact with us!!! This is your logic: transcendant = incompetent. Something you have to prove!
In closing, I will just say, that it is simply logical to start of using what you have to detect the possibility of something invisible… your logic, observation, senses. When you do this, your findings will all lead you to the logical conclusion: A God does exist. It did to me, and to many others who started off by logic.
May God give you His increase Max!

Hi Alex,

The problem for me is that a transcendent reality is not just equivocal, it is inherently equivocal.

We are unable to touch, smell, see, hear, taste or measure it as to do so would prove that it is part of the material universe and therefore not transcendent.

So it does appear to be a matter of faith.

Jonathan karl, Hi!
Why must it be bias?? Its a strong word, which needs to be proven. If the evidence proves Zeitgeist wrong, then(!), why can we be biased against it?? I mean, both films disagree with Zeitgeist (the 1st part), and they are simply refuting it. What did you expect?? Would you say the same thing about the maker of Zeitzeist The Movie??

Nick: I have to add though, The Bible is not just a book. It is the word of God. I don’t just mean the letters in red either. The entire book is inspired by God. No other book can explain it. It explains itself fully and completely.

[ Word of God ]. Ok I am sure its God’s word but one thing baffles me again .. If its really God’s word then why is it that you say Bible is a complex book to comprehend for us poor mortal beings ….cant God be straightforward enough to let his children know what he expects out of us in a clear cut manner ??? Perhaps he thinks we need to go through the merry go round list of stories, read between the lines and then figure out what exactly he is trying to tell us .. he loves throwing puzzles at us and the only rule to solve this puzzle is by having unquestionable faith in him. so far , so fair … Then he tells us that one who doesnt believe in him is heading for hell …ofcourse those bad ass souls never understood the puzzle so they are not fit enough for heaven! I mean I love this version of such fair God … And a book that is inspired by this God has to be of unquestionable truth …so far so good ! I need to understand onething over here … Is anyone over here is aware of any book that was written about the ones who wrote the Bible in the same time when the Bible was written ??? Any book or any material that verified the claims of the people who wrote the Bible ??? Before reading the Bible and coming to any conclusion about the universal truths, I would anyday read a book or material like this first before I read the Bible or for that matter any book of that nature (especially Quran). Then again heres a problem even if theres a book like this exists , can anybody verify the ones who verified the Bible .. I guess not. And then who will verify and validate the ones who validate the ones who validate the ones who wrote bible…..never ending loop right ??? See its the problem. You can never be certain about the claims of any book or for that matter anything …Word of God is verified by what — Word of God itself … And the scientists whose quotes you copy past from the internet doesnt help in the support of your claims because all of those scientists contradicted themselves at some point of their lives (lets not even start going there) , and in some case like that of Newton to Einstein even their theories conflicted with each other. And secondly their understanding of God in the quotes refer to the “so far not understandble” omnipresence of fundamental building blocks of everything rather than the Biblical version of God. Thirdly please dont formulate your opinions about the presence of God based on the statements of some mortal beings , internet links , websites or even any book or that matter.And regarding the reality you think is the result of the (grand fight between God and Satan).. Try to think for yourself by going one step ahead of whatever you have read in the Bible and learn about other religions,cults and history not to exclude verify them along with the science grounds. When I say learn that does mean reading a lot about a lot of stuff. But dont make your opinions based on them even !!!! From there on You will get to realize something even bigger , brighter and stranger than your current perspective of the world from the standpoint of the Bible .And heres the best part – it wont shatter your existing faith but I seriously cannot find the right for it …in a simplest form I can say (a mere upgrade of your faith)

You tell me to refer the old testament and the exodus story to start understanding the truth of God. Well thats just your perspective. Thank you but as I said earlier , I’m done with my religious readings and validation ….and I must say Bible itself doesnt hold the entire truth while the interpretation of it holds some massive lies and deceptions. Please please refer to my posts way up in this thread that explains the origin of bible and other religions. I can refer you the Vedas and the vedic knowledge for the understanding of the universe and the astronomical factors effecting the events here on earth but it aint the entire truth. And then some other guy may come and refer you the earlier chapters of Quran and the origins of prophet mohammed which also claims to have the total understanding of how the universe works in the words of — you guessed it God himself. Then theres a buddhist guy who comes up and says the teachings of Lord Buddha has strinking similarity to the mordern day quantum physics and does indeed explain the workings of the universe and god is nothing but an infinite consciousness that we are part of. Now imagine if an alien comes to this planet and meet all four of us .. and gives an equal ear to each of our individual stories of faith and god , which one is he gonna believe in ???
Christ ?? Allah ?? Lord Krishna ?? Gautam Buddha ??? and then there others too … I hope this example acts as a better starting point of your search for truth and the correct questions to ask in life than finding the answers…..’

I am usually a no quote person as I simply I like to put my own opinions and perspectives without any need of links or materials in support of them but however I will place a quote by someone from the history….for you especially : “Believe those who are seeking for truth. Doubt those who find it”. I hope it sums up pretty much everything that we have discussed so far.

Thanks !

To Alex

1) I don’t have to wait for you to ask me for proof, I give it anyway. The purpose of my comment on “proof” was to urge you to reconsider your atheism (that’s how you come across).

Well my questions about God is far more objective and than being spiritual in nature. As such I dont easily dwell into a trance mode with hypnotic understanding of universe when considering the most important fact that a spiritually starvated race with enough missing links about the universe will always fall for anything that is of profound complexity (something like the Bible or Quran).

2)I didn’t openly say you were an atheist, but I spoke of “atheists and wannabe atheists”; when it comes to christianity… your both (since you are not 100% sure of His existence… I mean, you can’t even call him a “God”! And I’m suppose to believe you are a theist. Please!)!

Lets get one thing very clear over here. The word God , the definition of God and its application on a particular context is different from one another. God is a word that can be used to denote a lot of things. The definition of God is highly subjective which can range from religion based Gods like Christ, Allah , Lord Krishna , Jain Mahavira to ancient mythological Gods like Apollo,Zeus,Amen Ra,Bramha,Shiva,etc to the quantum world gods (like infinite consciousness, universal interconnectedness,nature and environment,etc). The usuage of the word God can refer to any of these mentioned above and in what context they are used is considered to be the most important factor. For example – One can say Christ is the God who is all forgiving by nature. One can also say Christ is the alternate name for the God of all universe. One can also say Christ is not a God but just a way of understanding the human nature. Since the word itself can be used to represent so many different manifestations of the same source , I refrain myself by using the word “God” while referring to what I believe in. The language limitation is itself the culprit more than our limited understanding of the universe. So I hang at a place where my conclusions are always evolving and my “God” doesnt need me to play complex puzzles with holy scriptures or spend time at the church or temple listening to the priests or pandits and spend countless nights reading between the lines to figure out one basic moral code for living a good life without hurting any mortal being or the nature. And since the word “God” can be used to refer so many of the Gods out there… its better I dont use it all.

3) a)I’m not Nick! Where did you get this notion from?? I was just comenting on your comment to Nick. Also, just because he uses Biblical passages like I did in one comment(!!), this to you makes you suspicious that I am he?? I mean, you’re talking to Christians! What did you expect? Verses from the Koran? b) In my case (and I belive in Nick’s case), it would be a sin to be so deceiving as to claim I am somebody else! And besides… what for???
c) You can ask Vlatco, if we are the same person, I mean, if you like, you can even ask him to call us both (if Nick agrees of course)!

Alright forgive me here. But I did find both of you pretty similar. Anyways I am open enough raise my doubts and accept the findings.

4) I devoted my life to Christ at the age of 22, not since birth!
5) Regarding all the rest of what you say, I can only say a) you haven’t a clue (just because you don’t want one..!) b) Your false claims/accusations (and all the trash talk) about me… just say alot about the small borders of your perception as well as about the lack of self-awareness; you’re definitely not even a worthy adversary/opponent c) It is so interesting that some claim not to be atheists but then speak like true atheists. I mean they are the ones that attempt to trash The Bible/Christianity, and you -in your own way of course- do the same!!! If you’d stop your double talk confussion, it would be better for all.

Trash talk is a part of my nature , since I hardly take anything seriously. My self awareness doesnt need to be proved since you are the one who needs the backing of quotes from bible , links from the internet and continously replying to every so called atheist instead of doing something better with your time(which was the first thing I said to you when we spoke for the first time) and what not just help your cause. I think for myself using objective analysis and my approach clearly is to piss off fundamentalists like you who in the name of God and under the misconception of moral policing others on the basis of faith on something they have never even questioned is just what makes the world little more worse place than it already is. As I told you earlier too , that its not today that you may kill a person but certainly on the event of saving Christianity from falling. Only when the last church has gone down, only when one pope is left to save and the only option to stop it from happening is to have sex with a gay , then may be you will encounter the biggest moral dilemma of your life. Its just a wacky theory by the way but good enough for a brain storming session for you.

6) My comments “had a strinking similarity to the ideologies of suicide bombers from any other prophetic religion”?? Indeed, verified, you have no clue! This is just bratty slander. May God forgive you Nameless! Ps. Have you been talking to suicide bombers lately? You seem to suggest you know them well… A joke.

Well Alex , it takes no brainer to figure out the thought process of a suicide bomber and the kind of deep permeation of faith based hate with the grand touch of heaven/hell concept along with a promise of heaven. Lolz , you should go back and read again and again what I said in that section about your faith based claims and its resemblence to the suicider bomber mindset.

7) You write to me: “I asked for a rational discussion because that statement by nick simply makes absolute nonsense considering a person from some other religion accepting some other god has nothing do with hell or some fantasy like that…”
What?? His comment was one of a Christian. This is what he believes. What did you expect?? That he change his faith to accomodate other religions in order to be “palls” with them or be “grey” just to make you feel comfortable?? WHAT KIND OF “RATIONAL” THINKING IS THIS? Nameless sorry but you sound like brainless!

No dude ! Incase of a rational discussion , the scope of your objective reasoning cannot be bound to the bible or your specific religion itself. Thats what I wanted to raise . I dont say that the quote isnt from Bible – what I asked for is the application of the thought its trying to instill on every human being and not just a Christian. How will it make a person convinced of the thought if the only source of the validation of the thought becomes the thought itself. And I believe I have discussed it earlier in the above post with nick !

lolz ..thanks for calling me brainless. Because its still better than having all the brains and yet believe that “Bible is the final truth”.

If God were a proven fact — we would not need “Faith”

Only thing that shocked me was how bad this documentary was… yes I do think that there’s a lot of criticism of the Zeitgeist, but this was UTTER DIARRHEA CR** =D=D=D=D.

Bill hi!
1)Indeed faith is in the unseen God. But the unseen God can -if He chose to- give such indications/evidences of His existence and will, in order to encourage our faith in His unseen existence. What’s to stop Him? This is Christianity’s position.
2) You know, a “proof” and “fact” don’t always go together. Fact and proof can some times be personal and objective only to your senses. For example, if a divine being such as an angel appeared to you and this repeatedly, this to you personally, would be a “proven (to your senses) fact”, but a fact you can’t prove to others.
Now if that angel told you details of my past as well as details of my future (which actually came to be true), then, to me, who hasn’t seen that angel as you have, your angel -due to the evidence- is a 100% proven fact(!) …although I did not see him as you did!! Likewise Bill, Christians have faith in the unseen God due to His multifold manifestations/workings (some are for all to see!).
The only reason we sensible Christians encourage others to look into our “facts” (e.g.the angel speaking of my past and future) is not so we can feel better but because in the context of our faith there are parts that speak of mankinds terrifying destination, from which we want to help it escape. So whether non believers accept it or not, we say what we say, for their best interest (at least from our view).
Hope I’ve been of help.
God bless you!

To Nameless: I’m gonna take this one subject at a time.
First. In order for someone to disprove the Bible such as the Zeitgeist attempts to do, they would have to understand the Bible. Zeitgeist makes many mistakes in its comparing other religious figures to Jesus. One is the birth of Christ who wasn’t born in December. So all that “sun god” theory is shot straight out the window. It’s not necessary for me to say that, but the point is that the Bible is complex but it’s easy to understand if you know how to study it and do. People take the Bible and twist it everyday, which actually probably leads just as many people not to believe it as it leads people to believe it. The Bible is the final authority on God’s word. Without believing that, you can’t believe the Bible. As for the Bible being a puzzle, it’s not at all. It simply just requires studying. If you don’t want to study it, you can always listen to a preacher who understands the Bible and has studied it. But the truth is I don’t think you want to believe so you probably never will. I again will state though that Romans-Philemon, are the books in the Bible written by the apostle Paul who is the apostle to the Gentiles. Yes you are whats considered in the Bible to be a Gentile.
As for the Quran or Koran, Some “religions” use the Bible and some don’t. Those that do use it, misuse it. True Christianity is not a religion, but a personal relationship with God. Although Islam is a just another “religion”, the Bible tells us why that religion originated. Muslims agree that their original roots came through Abraham and his wife’s Egyptian handmaiden, Hagar, who bore a son for him. God named that son, Ishmaelite, and predicted that a vast nation of people would come from him. Because that son was illegitimate, (or not meant to be), that son and the nation that came from him, became a continual problem to Abraham’s legitimate offspring.

Abraham, had another son with his wife, Sarah, and named him Isaac. This was the legitimate son that God wanted Abraham to have. All the Jews came through Isaac. To this day, the big war between Jews and Muslims is all about which son inherited the right to the land of Jerusalem from their common father, Abraham. That’s why it is always called a “religious” or a “Holy War”. The Bible says that only Isaac and his descendants have any right to that land. In an effort to discount the Bible’s claim, a man name Muhammad (570-622 AD) wrote another book called, “the Koran”, so that Ishmael’s descendants could use it to try to claim the land away from Isaac’s descendants. Today, as Muslims, they are still jealous of the birthrights and favor with God that Israel enjoyed back then. The war between them goes on to this day. Muslims are angry with America for sticking their nose in and siding with the Jews. The Koran calls anyone who is not on the side of Islam, “infidels”. It says that, “infidels must die”. Some Muslims have taken this to heart to the point of becoming terrorists.
About Genesis. the only reason I recommended reading this book first as i said before was the History of the Bible and a foundation for which to read Matthew and than Romans. Romans being intricate in your salvation. The entire Bible is for us, but the entire Bible is not to us. That is a critical factor in understanding the Bible. And as far as being out of that going to hell category, that’s the easiest part. People just don’t like the idea of being punished for something when they feel they’ve done nothing wrong. So they choose to believe what they can. The truth is every person on this earth past the age of accountability will be held accountable for what they have done. The difference between those who will be in hell and those who won’t is that those who won’t have been sealed by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ and all those things which were counted against them are counted against them no more. Jesus is the only way to be saved and all you got to do is put your faith in him and accept that he was sacrificed to pay the debt for those sins. Just remember this, one day maybe before you die this old world is gonna get pretty bad, the body of Christ will no longer be here , we will be in heaven. The thing to remember is that old King James Bible, if you can find one by than. I’m not sure how it would work after that time period as I haven’t studied that much into the Ages to come. I know that right now we’re in the Age of Grace where forgiveness is based on faith in Jesus Christ. I won’t speak on what I don’t know so it will be up to you at that time to figure out about the scriptures in the ages to come. which is Hebrews through Revelation, I do know that much.

John Chapter 14
2In my Father’s house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Alex,
Aren’t Immanence and transcendence fundamental to the Holy trinity. I thought it was the holy spirit and not the father that is manifest on earth, sorry I’m clearly confused perhaps you could explain to me.

Well said Jonathan. And I think its the same not just about christians but almost all fundamentalists from every other religion. Not just the Christians infact there are fundamentalist muslims and hindus who are equally annoying and profoundly ignorant because they all think that their version of truth mentioned in their respective holy book is the final truth and one doesnt need to look further and investigate what the other side has to offer.

I mean how come someone be so dumb that they dont even wish to dwell into what lies beyond one single book of their respective religion. All fundamentalists states quotes from their own holy books instead studying them closely with other religions and derive conclusions of their own.

nick : The Bible is the final authority on God’s word. Without believing that, you can’t believe the Bible.

I think you dont even read what I said to you earlier and if you have read what I said , then perhaps you didnt even bother to think about the scenario I mentioned … or else you couldn’t have came up with the same statement once again. Quite expected – most fundamentalists cannot do that ..its sin to think for yourself , isnt it ???

For once stop thinking like a Christian and start thinking like a human being. Then may be you can understand what I have mentioned in my earlier post. Please read again. And then come back with your logic instead of Bible stories as a proof of the stories itself.

In my whole discussion so far I have not even mentioned anything about the documentary Zeigeist and its refuted/exposed counterparts. Then why do you have to even include them … I seriously dont give a damn about how much of it is true and how much of it is lies . My opinions are not even based on someone’s documentary neither my wisdom is based on a foundation of spoon feeded unquestioned truth.

Bible says its the word of God. Quran says its the word of God. Geeta says its the word of God. If there are so many books with different versions of God spoken stories , then perhaps you can tell me which God is the final truth. Because of these different God given guidelines and stories , there are so many level of misinterpretations of it ! And then people kill each other based on these different interpretations. I mean even if I believe that we are quite an idiotic race… Cant these gods from different religion have a conference and come up with a common solution so that all humans can understand their God given truth without a conflict with other versions of it ????

Nick hi!
Please see above, not Zeitgeist Refuted, but the new film under it: “Zeitgeist exposed”.
God bless you!

Jonathan Carl,
I don’t want to offend you, but Catholicism (just like its twin brother “Orthodoxy”) is not Biblical Christianity! I my self was born in an Orthodox family. I was never really a born again Christian (didn’t even know what it is), I just went along for the ride. Anyway, it like Catholicism is a man made religion, that just uses Biblical terminology! It is these two religion that had done so much harm to Biblical Christianity, leading people away from God’s real will, sending them to pray to Mary’s spirit and the spirits of the saints (if we accept they where that is)! Building a special order of priests that has nothing to do with the New Testament, then baptizing babies, etc. It is way far from the teaching of The Bible. You can google it find out about it. So, please don’t confuse Christianity with Catholicism.
But wait, then came Protestantism. The truth is while it too is doing harm with its so many denominations, it’s heading in the right direction at least, since its efforts are to return to Biblical Christianity; Protestantism is at least alive in its core and not dead like the others. I attend a Protestant church (with all its mistakes) since it is closer to the Biblical teachings. There are a great many Protestant churches that are as spiritually dead as are Catholic and Orthodox churches. Pray and be careful if you ever want to attend a church. Don’t become either of the three (attnding is another thing), but just a Biblical Christian. God will judge you according to The Bible not Christian religions, that to various degrees have gone astray.
God bless you!

it doesn’t offend me that you believe there is a difference between Catholicism and Christianity…from being around both, i cant tell you there really isn’t that much of a difference at all. the people are just as dogmatic and illogical in both, and they both fallow the same book, with the same teachings. Catholics just take it farther, and have saints. other than that, its the same old bull****…

and yes nick, i do hate the idea of a god, some supposed loving yet wrathful god, who is outside of time and all knowing, who creates a race of people supposedly to test their faith, when he would have already known the outcome.
who judges people based on sexual orientation, and spreads the belief that homosexuals should be put to death, or treated as rapists and murderers. a god who damns anyone who doesn’t believe in him to a lake of fire… straight up… logic and reason are my gods.

Oh you poor soul, may love be your comforter and happiness be your guide. It’s not as simple as it seems. I’m sorry to have angered you to such a degree. I just want to say this, it is true that all sinners who refuse to acknowledge Jesus as the savior will be judged accordingly, but it doesn’t matter what your sin is, the forgiveness of all sins is based solely on your faith in Jesus. There nothing more or less that you can do to obtain salvation. It is based on faith alone in the cross work of Jesus Christ. If anybody you, me, or anyone else could do anything to create our on salvation Jesus would not have had to be sacrificed. God gave man the chance to do what we could not, so he came and did it for us. He lived the perfect life, he didn’t say you had to. We are made perfect by faith in Christ. It is a love that man can not seem to understand. Don’t allow the teachings of religious systems to take away one of the most beautiful things in this life. A relationship with Christ through the Bible. Again, salvation is based solely on faith in Christ, nothing else. God has given every man a chance to come to him and spend eternity in heaven with him. One day the prince of this world will be cast into a lake of fire and anyone who has refused God’s gift will be cast there also. No sin may enter heaven. Lucifer will lose, actually he’s already lost and one day that final person who is going to come to Jesus will come and when they do, the people who have accepted Christ sacrifice as payment for their sin will no longer be here. Then God’s wrath will begin to be unleashed, and he will be right and just in the things that occur because he gave us a long long time to accept his gift. Also, he didn’t create people to test their faith.He didn’t test their faith either, Satan did. Do you know how he tested Eve’s faith.

Genesis Chapter 3:
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Do you see how he begins to deceive her? He wants to instill doubt in her mind. Ye shall not surely die. Then he goes on in verse five to tell her why God doesn’t want her to eat of the fruit, That she will be like gods knowing good and evil.And that is how sin entered this world.
Anyway, I know what you said, and that logic and reason are your gods. I’m going to try an find a good Bible teacher online to try and point a few people in the right direction that are interested in hearing about the Bible and how it plays a role in their lives or who just want to learn about the Bible and its proper interpretation.

Alex,
Is it not the purpose of transcendence/immanence duality, to avoid the paradox of God the creator existing within his own creation, necessitating that God must be separate from it.

Jonathan Karl,
You write “logic and reason are my gods”. Well, yes, but they are your false gods since they lie alot.

Nick,
my advice is, that after “his vomet”, don’t address him anymore. It is a clear case of Mat 7:6. Careful Nick…

Alex,

“Who says so?? After all I’ve told you, you still don’t get it. I mean, why must it be “the purpose” of “transcendence/immanence duality, to avoid the paradox of God the creator existing within his own creation”

If God created the universe he must exist outside of the universe. It is not logical to exist with in the universe and create the universe at the same time. He must therefore transcend the universe.

“Logic and reason are false and they lie a lot”? Are you serious?…lol

None of you have fully read the bible, obviously…
If you had, you’d realize how abominable and shameless your “god” really is…

…and there is one unforgivable sin, to question the existence of the holy spirit… that means if you so much as think that “god” may not exist, you have committed the one unforgivable sin.
Jesus even said to gather all those who do not wish for him to be king and have them brought to him and put to death… it also says in the bible that if man lies with another man, he should be put to death…

So technically if you follow the scripture to the T, you’d be putting people to death for nothing more than what a book says.

…and why would a “god” existing outside of time and being all knowing create a race of people to test their “faith”,”love”, or “belief” in him, when he would have already known the outcome?

I have proof without any certainty… while you have certainty without any proof.

Question everything! It’s the only way you truly learn.

…and finally, much to the delight of many on this board, this will be my last post.

“If you argue with an id***, after a while it is hard to tell who the real id*** is.”

Goodbye.

To Alex again: I did not say, I ever, or ever will! ingest Amanita Muscaria. I do not want anybody else to do it either! And if you read my posts properly, I had no mention of psilocybin! Regards.

Jonathan Karl
1)“Logic and reason are false and they lie a lot”? Are you serious?…lol
–I mean you don’t even pay attention to what you read! IS THIS WHAT I SAID?? I was implying that your gods: logic and reason, are false gods, since the outcome of your logic and reason represents lies, inaccuracies, deception, poor thinking.
2) “None of you have fully read the bible, obviously…”
–a) Another lie of yours. I just know you never read the whole New Testament let alone the whole Bible!! You need patience for such a task and a desire for the truth. You apparently don’t have either. b) I mean you are talking to Christians and you say we haven’t read The Bible… now that’s a twist! And you say it after Nick posted so many passages from The Bible…?! Ok, whatever…
3) “and there is one unforgivable sin, to question the existence of the holy spirit… that means if you so much as think that “god” may not exist, you have committed the one unforgivable sin.”
–See how ignorant and foolish you are making your self look, blabbering all over the place? Where does it say that in The Bible?? Find it and rub it my face real hard would you!
JK the unforgivable sin is defaming The Holy Spirit and His work. If you read the particular passage, Jesus says those words to those who didn’t believe in Him, actually warning them that they are close (! / hence they hadn’t fell into that sin yet, otherwise He would have told them so) to blaspheming The Holy Spirit by saying that He did His miracles with the power of the devil, while He did them with the power of The Spirit. The Holy Spirit is most sensitive issue in The New Testament. According to your blasphemous words and Jesus’warning, know that you are already damned forever (you dug your own grave!), I just pray -for your sake- His justice does not apply this punishment to your being after what you have said but that His love and longsuffering for the sinner, will keep you far from it. I suggest you do the same! I mean -out of sincere care for your soul, I have to say now, knowing what a crazy eternal death wish you just made- how can you be so stupid!!!!!!!!! HOW? For what??? Nick and I are talking to you in a manner which shows our interest for your benefit alone, and you attack God in this manner?? Honestly I am mad right now and really sad for you at the same time!
Now there are some protestants (individuals not denominations) who arbitrarily say that rejecting the gospel/salvation is the blasphemy of The Holy Spirit… this is probably where you got your -close enough- wrong idea. They say this because they want to rid believers of such a fear (that’s because Satan wants this). They are in sin when saying things like this, since the NT is pretty clear on the nature of this blasphemy. -The world is filled with “Christian” misquotes and misrepresentation, the Holy Spirit is so saddened by them.
4) “Jesus even said to gather all those who do not wish for him to be king and have them brought to him and put to death…”
–If you find that too in the Bible, please rub it in my face! You probably had in mind half of Jesus’ words (as usual) regarding… judgement day!
This will be applied at judgement Day!
5) “it also says in the bible that if man lies with another man, he should be put to death…”
–This is true. It is God’s game and the rules are His! (I just happen to agree for many reasons that it is not natural nor ethical [going against nature//Yeah don’t tell me about animals because a)you are not one b)you’d be amazed what other things animals do!].) God from the beginning wanted man and woman together. Anything else is an abomination to Him. I hope you are not a homosexual (you already mentioned sexual orientation/homosexuality before that is, so it makes me wonder…).
6) “…and why would a “god” existing outside of time and being all knowing create a race of people to test their “faith”,”love”, or “belief” in him, when he would have already known the outcome?”
–See, again, you think you know what you are talking about when you have no clue. But let me ask you a question. If God already knows the outcome of our lives, doesn’t this logically mean He sees it somewhere? It does. Are we there as well?? If so….. -Figure it out if you can and you’ll have your answer.
Really, may The Holy Spirit just forgive you… this is our sincere desire.

Alex : It is God’s game and the rules are His!

——————————

This piece of quote is for everyone to serve as a warning that whoever in their sane minds indulges themselves with an argument with this guy called “Alex” is going to end up regretting.

Please go through his earlier truckload of bible crap just to get a glimpse of his profoundly stubborn ignorance. From here on rest is people’s choice !

Alex .. Dude cease …

You just gotta laugh.Those who follow a religion should be taken out in the street a bummed in public.

to Alex: Greetings. I will address your rebuttals one by one. 1= I did not say the bible taught that, it was the limit of knowledge at that time, or at least the limit of knowledge the power that be, wanted the masses to have at that time. 2= I know what you mean, what I meant was by ingesting the fruit of wisdom will open up the secrets of the universe, and of hidden spiritual knowledge only allowed by god. 3= Again, I know what you mean. But I should mention god also said by eating of the fruit you will become like gods. Thats what I meant by where is the power. 4= I am not accusing anything, I am relaying information. 5= No it was not the best kept secret. Read, Sacred Mushroom and The Cross. Read, Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy. Read, In Apples of Apollo. 6= It is not new at all. It is written in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Also is the Soma talked about in the ancient Rig Veda texts of India, book IX. 3000 years ago. 7= “Your Quote” I gave (give or take) 100-200years, OK, Ill add 500 years more! again so what?? 1300 years no one mentioned this religion starter…..You are postulating a time span to suit your fancy, which is a blatant unconvincing pseudo-argument from your vague authority. I consider your argument MOOT! 9= There was no number 8 on your post. This rebuttal I will grant you but I am still looking. regards.

Max, hi!
Sorry, I didn’t realize I didn’t comment on you 2nd paragraph:
So (you write),
1)”If God created the universe he must exist outside of the universe.”
True, but why mustn’t He exist inside it as well? See it this way: If a woman is pregnant, yes she is “outside” the baby, “sorrounding” it, and at the same time the baby is inside her and she is connected to it to the point that the baby’s life depends on her nurishment, protection etc. for it is connected to “her” laws of nature.
Likewise,why should it be that the universe/energy bare no connection whatsoever to the creator?
Another way of looking at it is: God is one dimension, unto which all other dimensions are attached and owe all the aspects of their existence to. In an -let’s say- “infinite” (not exactly infinite) microscopic level all is sustained by God’s power/existence. He can practically interweave with us whenever He chooses to.
2) “It is not logical to exist with in the universe and create the universe at the same time.”
See the axamples again. Seems logical to me.
3)”He must therefore transcend the universe.”
He does transcend the universe, but in what manner? Knowledge and ability (and we can add: time).
But this transcendence does not cut Him off from us. Logically why must it? Think Max, is there anything outside God? Is He smaller than anything? No. Hence, “Outside of God”, is a contradiction in terms. Therefore, everything created is derivative of His Essence… THAT’S ALL THERE IS: His Essence… HE COMPOSES SPACE (this is how He is omni-present). There is nothing outside of His Space, if you can imagine that (this is how dimensions are). Now, His Essence has levels of expressions in microscopic and macroscopic creation (probably infinite levels of expression). It is His energy that takes up various of forms whether it is from a quark in an atom to the biggest planet/sun in space to all (!)that connects the two (His “space”/self).
Hope I’ve helped.
May He give you His increase.

Max sorry,
in the last sentence I meant to write:
It is His energy, that manifests in the greatest variety of forms; whether it is in the form of a quark in an atom or in the form of the biggest planet/sun in space, or in the form of all that connects the two, it is His energy that is applied and manifested.
(Hope it’s clearer)

Okay, for anybody who wants to learn about and study the Bible I think that these audio files should help. My recommendation is to start with the Study of Romans. The guy talking has a good understanding of the Bible. Also, I suggest using windows media player so that you can use the graphic equalizer to clean up the sound a bit. Anyone who doesn’t know how to do this follow these direction. Open media player and go to the top where it says view, select enhancements and then open the graphic equalizer. The eq should pop up at the bottom of the media screen. Now, turn on the eq and then set the sliders to move independent of one another, their are three options to choose from when it comes to the sliders. Now set all of the sliders to the very bottom except 2,4,8, and 16 KHz, move these 4 sliders all the way up to the top. This should clean up the audio and allow you to understand the speech clearly. You can play around with them if you like to try an tweek it to your individual speakers. Anyway, good luck to those of you who try and seek the truth of God’s word.

Achem’s razor,
thanks for your time.
(my comments after the three dashes)
1= I did not say the bible taught that, it was the limit of knowledge at that time, or at least the limit of knowledge the power that be, wanted the masses to have at that time.
—True. It just seemed you wanted to make that connection. Sorry, if you didn’t.

3= Again, I know what you mean. But I should mention god also said by eating of the fruit you will become like gods. Thats what I meant by where is the power.
—No God didn’t say that to them. The devil did. God later said that “they have become like us”, that is, in the knowledge of good and evil.

4= I am not accusing anything, I am relaying information.
—Yes, but the aspirin bit (as information, its side efects etc.) was irrelevant.

5= No it was not the best kept secret. Read, Sacred Mushroom and The Cross. Read, Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy. Read, In Apples of Apollo.
—Achem’s razor, the bit about people using Amanita Mascaria for “personal” and religious reasons, is not of importance and it is not the “best kept secret” in history as the writer is talking about. The best kept secret would have been that Am. Masc. was the originator of all religions as you believe. There is no such proof. But again if it was, then it is the best kept secret since thousands of years no body ever said anything about it being such (religion originator [not just favourite -though dangerous- pass time] ). Showing an icon of Christ holding something like a nushroom or even that particular one, is just the artists (way later!!!) hidden input based on his ideas; it comes nothing close to being serious evidence. No father of the church ever gave even a hint on it.

6= It is not new at all. It is written in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Also is the Soma talked about in the ancient Rig Veda texts of India, book IX. 3000 years ago.
—Again, see my previous comment. Even if we had a manuscript that said “This religion originated from the use of the magic mushroom”. This doesn’t mean it did (!), and it certainly doesn’t mean that all other religions did either!! I mean, Christianity started from mushrooms?… Has anyone of those making such ludicrous accusations ever read the “fathers” of the church (of the first century even) on Christianity, or even just the New Testament for that matter???????? Please!

7= “Your Quote” I gave (give or take) 100-200years, OK, Ill add 500 years more! again so what?? 1300 years no one mentioned this religion starter…..You are postulating a time span to suit your fancy, which is a blatant unconvincing pseudo-argument from your vague authority. I consider your argument MOOT!
—No. You obviously didn’t grasp the fact that I was referring to the mushroom being the originator of all religions. I was not just talking about the use of the mushroom by some. I hope that now it is cleared up.
-“Moot” as in controversial? No it isn’t. The mushroom idea is one of the worst case scenarios that arbitrary hearsay (!) has to offer!

9= There was no number 8 on your post. This rebuttal I will grant you but I am still looking. regards.
—I had placed an eight it was just automatically replaced by a smiley face. That was number eight.

Don’t just react “Achem”, give time and think it over.
God bless you!

Vlatco,
thank you for removing Jonathan Karl’s obscene blasphemy towards Christ and The Holy Spirit!
God bless you for it!

Nir,
you also write:
“All over the world there are many religions and all of them are meant to “wash” their belivers brain and by that to manipulate them”
Have you ever thought that you yourself have been brainwashed into believing that?? Have you ever really thought about it? If you have been brainwashed into this position of yours, then do you know that you are spreading around an evil propaganda? Just a good theory, think it over.
God bless you!

To Alex: I will address your number 6 and 7…6= You contradicted yourself. Your quote: (Even if we had a manuscript that said “this religion originated from the use of the magic mushroom” this doesn`t mean it did (!)….) That was your quote! Note your word manuscript. By your own words you have put in doubt everything written on manuscripts! Now your other quote on number 6= (…has anyone of those making such ludicrous accusations ever read the “fathers” of the church (of the first century even) on Christianity, or even just the New Testament for that matter???????? Please…..) Unquote…Why should anyone believe it! after all it was written on manuscripts. And the New testament was changed by”Constantine The Great”…7= You say I hope it is cleared up. It is not cleared up! anyone reading that will know you backed yourself into a corner! Also when you say arbitrary hearsay, The whole Bible.Bibles, the 4 gospels, and the other 30 or so gospels that are suppressed, are also arbitrary hearsay passed down by word of mouth. I am done with you. I will not reply to your posts anymore. Thank you for your time!

Achem’s razor
Please calm down. It’s not putting in a good light…
You write:
(regarding my point 6 and 7)
1)“6= You contradicted yourself. Your quote: (Even if we had a manuscript that said “this religion originated from the use of the magic mushroom” this doesn`t mean it did (!)….) That was your quote! Note your word manuscript. By your own words you have put in doubt everything written on manuscripts!”
—What are you talking about??
a) No, you note (!): I said “a manuscript”, one manuscript that is, not all manuscripts in general!!! Oh please!
b) Anyone can see that my emphasis was not on the manuscript but on the supposed words on it:
“this religion originated from the use of the magic mushroom”.
c) You made it seem I am trashing ancient manuscripts… (go figure). It reminds me when they tried to cling on Jesus’ words in order to accuse Him of something… therefore, for this reason, I’m much obliged!
d) I “put in doubt” those particular words because if we found just one such manuscript, on one hand IT WOULD BE THE ONLY ONE with such an outlandish statement and on the other hand it would only speak of that particular religion (I said: “THIS religion originated”), and not of all other religions!!
(you continue)

2) “Now your other quote on number 6= (…has anyone of those making such ludicrous accusations ever read the “fathers” of the church (of the first century even) on Christianity, or even just the New Testament for that matter???????? Please…..) Unquote…Why should anyone believe it! after all it was written on manuscripts.”
—Again, are you for real my friend? Nobody said don’t believe anything written on manuscripts. Read again what I just previously said.

3) “And the New testament was changed by”Constantine The Great…”
—Another funny one by Dan Brown. Real scholarly of you… Anyway:
“Constantine did not “edit” or change the New Testament in any way. Neither did the Council at Nicaea change the New Testament in any way whatsoever. This is a false rumor which has been supported by a number of people. Most famous of these is Dan Brown in his book The DaVinci Code. From a scholarly point of view the idea that the Council of Nicaea changed the New Testament is sheer nonsense. We have dozens of manuscripts in Greek of the New Testament from the second and third century–generations before Constantine was even born! If Constantine changed the New Testament or if he excised whole portions, surely there would be some evidence in these earlier manuscripts. We have a nearly complete New Testament (Codex Bezae) from about AD 300, which is before the Council of Nicaea took place. Again, there is not a shred of evidence that anything was either added to or taken from the New Testament by the Council of Nicaea. In fact, if these bishops had tried to change the New Testament, you can be assured that this move would not have been accepted by the church as a whole, for which the canon of the New Testament had already been fixed for well over one hundred years before the council was held. Add to this the fact that we have tens of thousands of quotes from the New Testament from the early church fathers. If there were some hidden or removed section of the New Testament, there would be some evidence of this fact from the innumerable quotes we have from the early Christian writers. Again, such evidence is completely lacking.”

4) “7= You say I hope it is cleared up. It is not cleared up! anyone reading that will know you backed yourself into a corner!”
—Oh foolish me! I really did it this time. How I am going to get out of this mess I got myself into? ?

5) “Also when you say arbitrary hearsay, The whole Bible.Bibles, the 4 gospels, and the other 30 or so gospels that are suppressed, are also arbitrary hearsay passed down by word of mouth.”
—You definitely sound too young to know anything about these things. You are just repeating what you have heard and cutting yourself with your “razor”. Real bloodshed. It is clear you have no idea. a) Gnostics suppressed?? Yeah ok..! There were no gospels suppressed; there were gospels rejected due to their foolishness, false claims, etc. But that’s a different story. Any scholar/theologian would laugh with this conspiracy theory of supposed suppression of false gospels!! I mean some “fathers” even openly took a stand against their statements! All so called “gospels” were out there for anyone to see!… And still are!!!!! And?? They pop up every Christmas and Easter!… Isn’t that just dandy!… You think it’s a coincidence? Yeah o.k.! b) Why don’t we find any manuscripts of the time that say that these “gospels” were suppressed, hidden away?

c) gospels written over 100 and 200, after Christ’s death (!!!)… were rejected -among other reasons- due to the fact that they contradicted the four standard gospels of the first century!!

Sorry, but these are just silly over repeated jokes. Hope I’m entertaining some Christian out there at least, or even an atheist at that!

6) “I am done with you.”
—Something like that. (There was no need to overreact. But suit yourself.)
7) “I will not reply to your posts anymore.”
—Indeed, time is precious.
“Thank you for your time!”
—Thank you for yours. Glad to be of any service (hopefully)
God bless you!

Tyler hi!
Try to see the second film posted under Zeitgeist refuted. It’s called Zeitgeist Exposed. It’s way more complete.
God bless you!

The AGE concept is a MODERN one????!!!! Ask the Mayans, for example, you silly, ignorant, poor fella! If all your claims are as valid as this one, and if the best “expert” on astronomy you could find is this White guy…. sorry, but it’s hard to make anybody looking for some good challenge watch it further, it’s painfully boring…

Hi Alex!
The quote I cite is said in the Zeitgeist exposed, and obviously related to the part which speaks about the way they interpret age in the Zeitgeist (certainly not in part 1 & 2, but I couldn’t say which one – anyway, when I heard the author saying that I stopped watching).

But, for example:
White says: people were worshipping sun for a long time but usually not the sun itself but something it represents! Now, I’m sorry Alex, but if that is a statement of a scientist, that I can call myself president of the United States. People were worshipping the Sun and its various aspects since the times immemorial, NOT what it represents. Find ANY reference for ANY period and that’s what you will find.

White: the halos around heads and on crosses is not a proof that Jesus was the sun god, but simply means that sun-worshippers were paying the artist to make their work more to the liking of the latter!!! Now, Alex, please! I don’t think that you would seriously want me to explain what is wrong with this statement. I could find plenty of ways to describe someone who stated it, but will try to be polite and just say that he doesn’t provide a single proof or source for this incredibly unscientific statement. He says is and just moves on to a different subject.

The last White’s “pearl” that I can remember before saying to myself that I’d seen enough of this “exposure”, was that age is a modern concept. I really couldn’t listen to any more scientific refutal of the Zeitgeist.

I’d seriously like to hear your opinion on the statements I mentioned above, and your honest reply as to whether you find them scientific.

Hi Alex,

I really appreciate your response, especially because I find it measured and honest, from what I can tell.

And that brings me to something I often think about – the fact that different people with no hidden agenda and well intended often have radically opposite views on things that appear to be quite important in our lives. I’m one of those (with no hidden agenda) and for some reason, I have a feeling that you are the same. (Might be wrong but I allow my instincts take the lead from time to time ).

You will forgive me if I cover some issues of my concern here, that are of general nature and that do not necessarily touch the specific points raised in Zeitgeist or its refutal. For, I’m quite certain that we both can point to claims in both documentaries, which their authors had not researched to the detail and which can be disputed by the, let’s say, experts of the “opposing camps”. In both “camps” you will find scientists that will substantiate their claims with some sort of evidence. Even if that means simply that the “others” have no evidence for their claims. But, Alex, let’s be honest, it is all a matter of where one stands – it’s my perspective, it is your perspective…. We can all refer to some expert who said this or that about an issue, and still, we will rarely be able to conclude the subject with certainty in our hearts and minds. Because we feel the need to prove that what we believe in is the ultimate truth. And that goes for you as well as for me… But we don’t know, neither me nor you, if what we perceive as “truth”, is really that.

For example, I do believe in God, though in a drastically different way than you do (well, I assume). I don’t believe in Christ as the Son of God (although I’m not saying he didn’t exist, please note that), but do I have any evidence that this is not so? Of course I don’t, and of course nobody does. It’s just the way I FEEL about it. Organized religion, an institution which, in my opinion, has as much to do with God as a rocket scientist has with gardening, is just not something I can accept and adhere to just “because it’s the way it is”. And please, don’t confuse my feelings about organized religion and what I believe to be Christian (or any other religion’s) dogma, with my belief in a spiritual connection between all that exists. It may sound unacceptable to you, but to me it sounds perfectly natural.

On the other hand, you, as a Christian (I assume), accept the Bible for the same reason – because you FEEL it is THE truth about life and existence in general. Do you have any proof to claim it’s the ultimate truth? Of course you don’t and of course nobody does. (With all respect, I hope you won’t bring Bible as a proof here, since Jews could then bring Tora, or Muslims the Quran, or Hindus or Budhists their respective rules and regulations and all could claim the knowledge of the ultimate truth – all would be self-serving evidence recognized only by those who believe in their content).

My point here is that we are all products of certain factors such as environment we grew up in, education, life experiences, and many others, and we cannot deny that we have been “contaminated” in one way or another and as a result reached certain conclusions which reflect that development.

In the end, from the position where I stand, it would require evidence that shatters my deepest beliefs, my inner self, not evidence that proves Zeitgeist wrong in details. Because, you see, it is not important whether there are connections between Horus and Christ, or any of the other connections mentioned in the Zeitgeist or refuted in the above documentary, these details are secondary for someone with my beliefs (I don’t see Zeitgeist as the ultimate truth to the detail, you know, Zeitgeist is not my religion). It’s the Zeitgeist ’s ultimate message, which bids farewell to the dogmatic, eternal, “truths” and world views, and opens the doors to the hearts and minds of those who are fed up with them, that is appealing and attractive.

Dear WTC7

Enjoyed your comment. It respected both views.
But I have to say that sometimes it is difficult to reason with some people who believe satan buried all those dinosaur bones. That doesn’t mean that we should stop talking. Talking is always good. We just have to try to understand why and how some people use “faith” to justify their actions and arguments.

Hi Joe,

Thank you, I really appreciate what you said. Talking is much better than fighting, otherwise what would we need the intellect for? Although, whoever was distributing it among people wasn’t fair to some poor souls . Like to those from your example with dinosaur bones . Had not heard that one before .

Fow WTC7 (second part)
Now, my reply to your comment on August 13:
To begin with, please realize that I cannot and will not repeat my self over and over. If you really want my opinion on something, please read all my comments on this thread (or even on “Zeitgeist the movie” and “Zeitgeist addendum”). This will help you and me a great deal. If you see that I don’t answer something you say, it is probably because I’ve done so elsewhere (or simply because I feel I would be wasting my time).
Now, you write:
1) “But, Alex, let’s be honest, it is all a matter of where one stands – it’s my perspective, it is your perspective…”
—True to some degree. The problem is found on that: “where one stands”. That is, am I standing on where I feel comfortable (for various reasons), or am I standing on facts? Unfortunately many times “perspectives” can be “what one prefers to see”, rather than “what one sincerely sees”. This is the problem. Non the less, the evidence remains evidence for those who can and want to see it.

2) “We can all refer to some expert who said this or that about an issue, and still, we will rarely be able to conclude the subject with certainty in our hearts and minds.”
—a) Is it wise though or even fair to the truth for that matter, to imply that no one can have complete certainty on a topic such as the existence of God or Who is He? Objectively speaking, it isn’t.
b) I would never refer “to some experts” without first being sure on where I stand and why. Yet, me citing them, is usually done when this is asked for or I find it usefull in order for one to just realize that my view has some scientific validity “outside of me” and this to help someone else to lower his guard and listen to scientific reason/facts, since my points “may not be” enough for him. I myself, don’t need the experts, I just use them. That’s the bottom line. They are just the cherry on top of the ice-cream. Not the other way around.
c) I am 1000% certain of what I believe to be the truth, and it is not just a gut feeling driving me. I say this in all honesty before The God I believe.

3) “Because we feel the need to prove that what we believe in is the ultimate truth. And that goes for you as well as for me…”
—Again though, why generalize? Why must everyone be “grey”? I would not even apply this statement on believers of other religions. I don’t have “a need to prove that what I believe is the ultimate truth” so I can feel safe, wise, special. No. I have the need to prove that what I believe is the ultimate truth simply because, I -having no doubt about it- want to help people come to salvation through it. In all sincerity it is not about me, but about them.

4) “But we don’t know, neither me nor you, if what we perceive as “truth”, is really that.”
—a) It would be wise of you if you stop considering yourself the measure for everybody else. If you doubt what you believe (this is what you are actually implying), that doesn’t mean someone else who doesn’t doubt his belief is arbitrary in not doing so.
b) I know what I believe is 100% real! As real as you are though I cannot see you nor know all the details about you. I know some few things about you which indeed are 100% correct (you are 1. a human [with all other details concerning a human, (birth, parents, etc.)], 2) You believe in some form of god [my evidence for that is your statement]). Likewise, I don’t claim to know my God 100%, but I know -without a microscopic doubt- aspects/attributes/properties of His Existence and Personality and will. What I don’t know about Him, cannot negate His person at all, just as not knowing you 100% doesn’t negate your person either.
c) Regarding the reality of what we perceive, firstly the word “perceive” needs to be clearly defined. If you are not implying “guessing/feeling”, that is, a vague perception, a somewhat subjective one, but an actual solid perception, then, yes, you have every reason based on your perception mechanisms, that is, your senses, to accept something as reality. This issue therefore boils down to whether we can talk about “objectiveness” as a solid ability or not, whether our senses are able to perceive reality or not. In other words, are we able to be objective or are just fooled to believing we are objective by our senses or maybe a divine being? Me answer is, I have no reason at all, to doubt my ability of objectiveness, to doubt my senses. If I had such a reason, then I would have doubts regarding my perception of reality. Does anyone have scientific or any other reason to doubt the objectiveness of their senses?? Do you?? Give one solid reason. –Keep in mind by someone telling me that there are more things to see that can’t, doesn’t mean my senses have a problem, it just means that my senses were not made to see those “more things”, but to actually see the things I do see. Please read it again, so not to misunderstand my point.

5) “I don’t believe in Christ as the Son of God (although I’m not saying he didn’t exist, please note that), but do I have any evidence that this is not so? Of course I don’t, and of course nobody does. It’s just the way I FEEL about it.”
—a) Ok, it is “just the way you FEEL about it”, but it, at the same time, is just contrary to what I personally have come to know about Him. But anyway, think about the following:
***accepting that you are being 100% precise in your wording, there are reasons “you feel” Jesus is not The Son of God. This feeling is derivative of other conscious or subconscious factors. Could those factors have originated from misinterpreted elements or phenomena, misinterpretation that became established in you maybe from a young or not so young age? This is something you have to find in you and outside of you. I mean really put yourself in the nude!
***But I’ll ask you a simple yet profound question (to answer to yourself), but before answering it I want you to realize the feelings (if any) that spark up when hearing it (!) just before you rationalize and compose an answer. In those feelings, the real you -along with your motives- exists. The question is: Would it bother you if you found out that Jesus Christ was indeed The Son of God? If so, why so? If not, why not?
b) Is it possible you learned about Jesus from bad sources? Is it possible? Is it possible? Need guts to answer positive to such a question, if that is the case.

6) “Organized religion, an institution which, in my opinion, has as much to do with God as a rocket scientist has with gardening, is just not something I can accept and adhere to just “because it’s the way it is”.”
—WTC7 listen to me. Don’t get sucked in by propaganda.
a) Most people who disagree with religions and use the term “organized religion” have filled it up with so much negative emotions and so little facts. They use the term over and over and don’t stop to think “what exactly is wrong with a religion being organized??” I on the other hand, disagree with religions not because they are “organized” but because of their contents, which I consider contradicting to what I know about reality. Being organized with priests or whatever means nothing to me. All “societies” within a larger secular society, need laws to maintain themeselves, hence order, hence priests of a kind to enforce them. This is reasonable and not negative in itself.
b) If on the other hand by “organized religion” one implies a religion with a specific “organized” doctrine, again, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? WHAT’S THE FUSS ABOUT?? There is no actual problem at all!! The problem would be, if in its organized doctrine (nothing wrong with that in itself), it leads people to harm themselves or others.
Also, the fact that some gullible religionists (not whole [!] religions!) may at times be manipulated/influenced by politicians or “conspiracists” of all kind, says absolutely nothing about that religion itself, unless its contents invite such people to do evil through them (the religionists). The only religion that fits that description to me is Satanism; don’t know of any other.
Speaking of myself and most I know, there is no way a politician or anyone else can manipulate me in doing wrong. But hypothetically speaking, if a politician influenced me to gather many to vote for him because he promised me he will do things that I believe God finds pleasing, and after I had done so and he is elected, he turns his back on his promises, then this is not my “religions” fault, but either my poor judgements fault or his expertise in conning people! Of course if a big part of the followers of my “religion” votes for him, my religion itself will be accused by some who haven’t got a clue about how he conned us and his expertise in doing so. Did you ever think of how many people -atheists or theists- who don’t belong to any religions become influenced non the less to vote for someone who rips them off -let’s say- every four years…? If you have not thought about it, it is just because religionists are the beloved target not atheist! Atheists can be fanatics, brainwashed, organized, foolish, deceived to vote for someone etc. and -under the radar- get away with it! -So, in closing this part, it’s about people conning people, not religion.

7) “On the other hand, you, as a Christian (I assume), accept the Bible for the same reason – because you FEEL it is THE truth about life and existence in general. Do you have any proof to claim it’s the ultimate truth? Of course you don’t and of course nobody does.”
—a) “Of course” you’re wrong, I do. As I said I don’t believe in Christ because I have a gut feeling. Revelation, experience (mine and many others), observation, evidence, all lead to that Jesus is The Son of God. Read my following comments on the issue (the least you can do since I went and picked some of them out for you):
(write them down on a piece of paper so you don’t have to go back and forth)
From Zeitgeist Addendum: July 5th point 12 / July 14th point 40. //// From this thread: June 20th 21:42 (read from where I say: “So, the idea…”, and after) / June 21st 21:15 point 2 (note 3-4) / July 6th 18:52 point 9 and (in the next comment) point 11, July 9th 20:01 point 2 / August 1st 23:02 (all of it) / August 2nd 23:06 (all of it)/ August 3rd 16:17 point 1.
The best thing for me is that you read all my comments at least here on “refuted”. I believe they will all benefit you to a good degree.
b) What to you, would compose proof of the ultimate truth?? This is one of the most important key questions there are!! This is the question that most -if not all- of those who oppose Christianity dodge. I know why. Note that if you don’t answer this with a clear answer, YOU CAN NEVER SAY TO ANYONE THAT THEY DON’T HAVE “SUCH” PROOF.

8. “(With all respect, I hope you won’t bring Bible as a proof here, since Jews could then bring Tora, or Muslims the Quran, or Hindus or Budhists their respective rules and regulations and all could claim the knowledge of the ultimate truth – all would be self-serving evidence recognized only by those who believe in their content).”
—No. They don’t have evidence of the reality of their God in their Scriptures. Even if they did, objectively, this alone cannot negate the Biblical evidence for The Biblical God. See the comments I cited for you, to get a small glimpse.

9) “In the end, from the position where I stand, it would require evidence that shatters my deepest beliefs, my inner self, not evidence that proves Zeitgeist wrong in details.”
—a) Of course, I totally agree! We talk about Zeitgeist simply because this is what we are suppose to do here to begin with.
b) What would “evidence that shatter your deepest beliefs” etc, be composed most likely of?? This is THE QUESTION THAT DEMANDS AN HONEST ANSWER! So we don’t go around in circles saying “this is evidence!”… “no it’s not!” and so on.

WTC7, I did more than you probably bargained for in answering your comments (in two parts). The least you can do, is understand my words, and be 100% honest towards them as you believe you are towards the truth. Time will tell.
Till then,
may God give you his increase.

To WTC7:
——————

WTC – 8. “(With all respect, I hope you won’t bring Bible as a proof here, since Jews could then bring Tora, or Muslims the Quran, or Hindus or Budhists their respective rules and regulations and all could claim the knowledge of the ultimate truth – all would be self-serving evidence recognized only by those who believe in their content).”

Alex
—No. They don’t have evidence of the reality of their God in their Scriptures. Even if they did, objectively, this alone cannot negate the Biblical evidence for The Biblical God. See the comments I cited for you, to get a small glimpse.

. . .

WTC7 I feel sorry for you, but it seems you have thrown a stone in the mud. Refer to my and several other’s earlier comments explicitly warning sane minds not to indulge themselves with this idiot.

Look at the amount of ignorance this idiot has and how shamelessly and desparately he keeps defending his version of God using absolute nonsense and horse crap. He thinks only Bible has evidence of reality in their scriptures and rest of the religion doesnt when it is so certain that this moron doesnt even know a single shit about any other religion or their religious books with the precision of an insider knowledge. I mean does he even know anything about Hindu mythology or Vedic knowledge or Buddhist principal stages of life.If he had studied with an unbiased approach about all the religions he wont be saying this kind of illiterate statement with such confidence. So “fundamentalist”.

And in the second line he says “even if they did it doesnt negate this alone cannot negate the Biblical evidence for The Biblical God.” See he is not even sure of what he said earlier. Trying to justify the proof of Bible using comments from the Bible. And then at the same time accepting that scriptures from other religious books cannot be cited as the truth or for that matter even cannot accepted as evidence for their respective religion.

This is just a brief demonstration of what you are dealing with. Ofcourse if one tries and has all the time in the world , can actually sit and rip all his claims and statements for eternity but no one has the amount of mental patience nor privileged time to reply this tireless fundamentalist.

I think WTC7 that you have mentioned some valuable points in your earlier comments but I just think you were a little too quick in coming up with this idea that Alex is not a part of some hidden agenda. If you have noticed this guy doesnt have anything to share on documentaries from various topics expect for those dealing with Christianity.

Please check the above discussions where people gave up on a rational discussion because of his perpetual irrational circular logic.

Nameless – … and yes you’re right, he’s a fundamentalist too, a stupid fundamentalist.

Alex: I am not exactly illiterate, but I have no idea what you are talking about! Nor do I want to know! If you have concerns, ask “You Tube” It is their Video’s. End of discussion!

Vlatko hi!
From my perspective, most readers and participators do not go to the trouble of reading all previous comments. If they read the last ones and see the discussion deteriorating then this will turn them off, that is, it will make them be afraid of posting a comment since they see a lot of “trampling over” already, something that is a waste of precious time and space. Especially if he is a Christian or from another religion he will think it twice or three times before commenting (maybe this is their agenda…). Even if he is just an honest person with dignity and respect for others, searching for answers, again, this kind of “filthy war” will tire him out eventually. I mean I find this thread a complete waste of time if “it becomes restricted” only to atheists and others who curse, lie, and just don’t want to hear the other side. If the people who participate promote civilized discussion then this can benefit all sides in the long run. So my opinion, is just give a test run for a little while and if it continues to deteriorate, then -I agree with you- do what you have to do, but at least don’t take off the comments already posted or even just those you think represent the kind of civilized material you want to be read on this thread. I disagree with Nameless when he says: “But still as an honest feedback , I will suggest you to keep all the posts coming (whether they are stupid,vulgar,irrational or rationally debate intensive)……………. Let the discussions deteriorate.”
No. Honesty is not enough. People have to learn to respect those who hear them and those who respond to them. They can’t just enforce their language on others, especially since this is not done in their “house”, but in somebody else’s (Vlatko’s). They can say anything (!) but in a wise measured manner. Then He adds:
“This way it helps the reader to make up their own minds when they start following a thread. Let them see all the sides irrespective of the gravity or the seriousness of the posts.”
I disagree. The reader can “make up his mind” when listening and taking part in a civilized conversation. The fact that I choose not to curse at anybody or make them to be trash, doesn’t mean my arguments are less interesting or accurate or passionate or helpful. People who resort to trash talk need to resort to it (!) because they are uncivilized or immature or hate filled or just want to win a discussion by projecting their emotions with out sound arguments in order to fog what is actually happening. Why should they -at the expense of others- be given the right to?? Anyway Vlatko, I hope my view has been of help to you. As I said, the “house” is yours. God bless you!

Achem’s razor,
sorry about my comment on August 15th. It was to a degree irrelevant. I had something else in mind when I saw your link. Again, sorry.

This is a joke, just face it, religion and facts will never be compatible. What a waste of everyones time.

“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” – Steven Weinberg (Nobel prize winner and world renound physicist)

I’m sorry if you’re religious.

I’m not sorry if I’ve offended you.
I’m just sorry if you’re religious

Joe hi! (again?)
Are you the same Joe I’ve already responded to above?
You write:
1) “Dear Alex
As long as you not b/shitting I would love to read your comments.”
—a) You’re not doing me any favour you know! So what’s with the attitude? With what right do you address me in this manner?? Have I done anything to you?? Where did you see “b/shitting” in any of my comments?? If someone disagrees with you he must be “b/shitting”?? Or maybe you think you can intimidate me???????????? YOU CAN’T!! How old are you? 20-23? Please!
b) It sounds like: “Dear Alex, As long as you not b/shitting I would love to attack you like most others! Just give me a chance!” Take your best shot!
c) I see your hate as well.

2) “…there are people like myself that appreciate frank and passionate discussions”.
I do too (as you can see), but respectful frank and passionate. If someone wants to get in a “fist fight”, this is not the place to do it, that is, if the purpose of discussion is truth not disrespect in order to hide ignorance.

3) “It seems like there are many against a lone fundamentalist. I hope more people can join in to even out the ratio.”
—I don’t need anyone’s help. All I ask for is honesty and a civilized discussion, and we can disagree on anything! No problem!

4) “I, myself, is 90% Christian, 2% atheist, 2% Buddhist, 2% spiritual, 2% Muslim, and 100% logical.”
—Please clarify what a 90% Christian is….

5) “First time I saw Zeitgeist was 5 years ago. It was absolutely eye opening. Since I was a born again christian the doc had hit a very sensitive cord.”
—a)You were “a born again Christian” and now you are 90% Christian 2% Buddhist, etc.?? I have news for you Joe, that I’m probably going to pay for, but no problem: You were never born again by God. At most your church made you think you were “born again” (maybe you agree). Think about it please. I have seen too many of those. This is the pseudo Christianity that so many churches today cultivate. The reasons is false theologies. Hence, they make “Christians”, instead of The Holy Spirit making them. Just for the record Joe, being “born again” is a process completed by receiving The Holy Spirit in you. Having repented and believed and maybe even seen God’s Hand occasionally and going to church, reading the Bible, is not being born again.
b) I was wondering, how old were you 5 years ago? I ask because it does matter. Answer if you want of course.

6) “I asked many fundamentalists around me about my new found knowledge. Suddenly, I became a devil worshiper. Even my own mother seemed very troubled by me and I tried to convince myself that the doc is a work of satan.”
—a) Joe, someone being a fundamentalist pastor or teacher, doesn’t mean he knows how to answer issues such as Zeitgeist. So, they just throw at you what silly (many times) little they know. I mean, there are apologists for such issues. To them Zeitgeist (the first part) is an “case closed” topic.
b) I understand though, that you were surprised with the reactions of others, but I believe their intentions were good (although that’s not enough).
c) Have you seen “Zeitgeist exposed”? It’s the first one on top of the page of Zeitgeist Refuted. Vlatko changed the order. Zeitgeist refuted is good too, but “Exposed” is more complete. Do see it if you haven’t.
d) Since you believe the first part of Zeitgeist, what to you is Jesus Christ and the apostles?

7) “You see, it is very hard, if not impossible, to “un-faith” oneself when all your life you been taught to just accept and believe and if you don’t you will go to hell for eternity.”
—a) Not really. If one’s faith, does not have a strong foundation in truth (it has many aspects/parameters), it becomes “shaken” pretty easy. One must understand that most Christians work on improving their understanding of God and His will, rather than improving their understanding of -let’s say- the atheists’ amo (if you know what I mean). This is COMPLETELY normal! So, when someone confronts them with “ideas” like Zeitgeist, they are not in a position to answer. This though, doesn’t mean they are stupid, or that their belief is wrong, it just means they have not searched to find answers on such issues, simply because they don’t care about it and this because they have seen the God of Christianity in their life so many times, that ideas like Zeitgeist seem to be irrelevant, absurd. Some Christians though, do both: understand God and His will as well as understand “the other side of the story”.
b) Although it usually doesn’t happen that way (…) in reality, being “taught to just accept and believe and if you don’t you will go to hell for eternity.” is not a Christian way of dealing with anything I must insist!!! Most of the times, from my experience, this is just how atheists smother Christians. O.k. maybe this is how one’s family deals with things they can’t answer, but to generalize and say that all the elders and pastors and teachers do this, is just a suspicious injustice. Even if the leaders of a church don’t care much about such issues, they will never prevent (by rule) prevent someone from doing his own research.

“But, slowly, my hunger for reason and logic prevailed over my “faith”.”
Reason and logic never prevails over a reasonable and logical faith. NEVER.
What actually happened is that your “reason and logic” prevailed over your very weak in foundation faith, unless you can prove otherwise.

9) “As I dug for more information I realized there were all these books that I had to read – being an atheist is a hard work.”
a) Ok, but you did not realize that there just as many books countering them. think that if you, you’d be a different you now.
b) Being a Christian is hard work too.

10) “One day I discovered a doc by Richard Dawkins. It was brilliant and less time consuming.
RD really challenges your mind to investigate; both science and religion.”
—If you don’t mind I’d like for you to give me the best -according to you- principle from Richard Dawkin’s book/s which may have made you “less of a Christian” after reading it.

Well Joe, these were my comments that you’d “love to here” .
Do what you have to do, but at least try to be “100% logical” while you’re at it; if respectful as well, it would be much appreciated.
God bless you!

“Reason and logic never prevails over a reasonable and logical faith. NEVER.
What actually happened is that your “reason and logic” prevailed over your very weak in foundation faith, unless you can prove otherwise.”

What the hell is a “reasonable & logical faith” There is seldom ever such a thing, you either KNOW from direct contact(meditation etc),observance of the cosmos should convince the intelligent… or you “believe”/”have faith”- which is typically always either fear-based, peer-pressured or “cultured”, or just a sentimental fancy built on sandy shores.

why pull this guy down cos he wants to use his intellect & reason to look into & test things out for his own???,
instead of just believing what others give him as most do.

One thing, you use the word ” atheist” a lot, some of the most kindest & considerate people I know are such. Are they going to “hell” cos they don’t “believe” … NO!

Joe
You write:
1) “Have you read the bible cover to cover?”
—Although you say your question is sincere, it still sounds like a belittling question, but maybe it isn’t, so I’ll entertain it. If you happened to read my comments on this thread, and on all other Zeitgeist related threads you’d pretty much get the idea that I have read the Bible a great many times (haven’t counted them), and continue to do so… every day!
I am Greek and I read the New Testament directly from the Nestle-Aland Critical Apparatus, and the Old Testament from both the Septuagint (Hebrew translated into Greek) and Hebrew Version called Vamvas (named after its translator).
2) I don’t get this comment: “As long as you speak from heart then your bs is my bs…..” But let’s go on.

Gordon hi!
You write:
1) “What the hell is a “reasonable & logical faith”
—To begin with, please calm down. If you’re actually interested in an answer, read my comments on: June 20th, 2009 at 21:42, July 6th, 2009 at 18:52, also on Addendum July 17th, 2009 at 12:06 and maybe elsewhere. I can’t keep repeating myself and be answering to everybody at the same time.

2) “why pull this guy down cos he wants to use his intellect & reason to look into & test things out for his own???,
instead of just believing what others give him as most do.”
—How nice of you (…) to want to protect Joe… but against who?? This is what you got… FROM MY WORDS?? I never said to him not to do his research and just believe. Why would I??

3) “One thing, you use the word ” atheist” a lot, some of the most kindest & considerate people I know are such.”
—Of course, I agree! I’ve already mentioned somewhere that there are good people on both sides!! When I am referring to atheists I make it clear in the context of my words that I am referring to the ignorant ones or the arrogant ones, or both in one. Just as I make clear that many Christians are at fault as well for the misunderstandings of many atheists.

4) “Are they going to “hell” cos they don’t “believe” … NO!”
—Well, do you believe in hell? If so, where do you get your teaching on hell?? If from the Bible, then you know that YES they WILL end up in hell. On the other hand, if you don’t actually believe in the existence of hell then…. what’s it to you? (Don’t take it the wrong way.)
Also, being a good person when in contact with people, doesn’t mean you are indeed good since it can be superficial. A person who is truly good, is so, in The Eyes of God as well, not just people. The Lord God has his own standards in who is good. I add that there are many atheist who devoted themselves to Christ.
God bless you.

Dear Alex

It was a sincere question. Reason I asked was because I find many so called fundamentalists never read the bible cover to cover and they tend to be stubborn about their religion. However; those few who did read the bible are more open minded imo.

Alex, since you read and studied the bible, don’t you find book of Genesis strange? Something about it it’s very mythical.
As if someone made it up to explain the beginning of time.
First time I read it it was more than 20 years ago. Back then I just accepted word for word even though some of the stories were puzzling.
For example – Noah’s Ark
This used to be one of my favorite sunday school story.
Alex, without getting all religious, think about it. All those animals cramped in the Ark (Please spare me of any band-aid explanations). Does it make sense to you? Another one is “incest”. C’mon Alex, even a third grader would know something is not right. I could go on and on about Genesis. Once Genesis fails then rest of the old testaments become impossible to stomach. I truly believe book of Genesis was fabricated just like any other mythical books.

Funny thing is I used to be like you and I don’t entirely dismiss you. Nor am I trying to convert you..no no no

“As long as you speak from heart then your bs is my bs…..”
Personally, I find too many fundamentalists speak out of their asses than their mouths. And as long as you are honest then I will reciprocate.

Mickey, critisim accepted- i agree & i will leave it at that.

Joe hi!
You write:
1) “Alex, since you read and studied the bible, don’t you find book of Genesis strange? Something about it it’s very mythical.
As if someone made it up to explain the beginning of time.”
—a) Well, strange in what way? If you mean that some passages are a challenge in understanding them, this is true.
b) “Very mythical”, no. It is true that, Christians and maybe others, grow up hearing of Adam and Eve, as if they are told a fairytale, and this has contributed, to how many “feel” about it today. But actually, if you put the facts on the table, it doesn’t have to “feel” like a fairytale. For instance, *Adam and Eve, are just names of two people = today we have people with names. * They were in a big garden = today we have big gardens, so no fairy tale so far. But suddenly, when God and Satan disguised as a snake and the “fruit and good and evil” come into the picture, it becomes a fairy tale and this simply because “the supernatural is not natural” (fairy tales usually entail the supernatural element). This is why the “mythical” notion may come up. To a normal person this is a normal notion. But if someone is honest in his research and persistent, he will in time realize -as I have- that God and Satan are 100% real therefore there is no reason the tree wasn’t as well. Note that the choice of God to place such a strange “mythical (seeming)” tree in the beginning of His relationship with humans at creation, seems to be in the boundries of what a supernatural God would do (think about that, don’t just exclude it).
c) So I don’t actually see something “made up” there.
d) I’ll tell you something else also, that many don’t believe. Most of the “myths” of ancient religions, ARE NOT MYTHS! There was a lot more going on on the planet before the flood, than we can imagine (and even after). All this -in a few words- connects with the angels that took a bodily form and united with human women; the outcome was giants (many such skeletons found/no kidding! There are such links.) with powers people don’t have; they are what ancient religions refer too as their “gods”. Of course God put an end to these “half-gods”, but their fame remained. (Much can be said here.)
e) “Strange” is something completely normal when we talk about the things of THE God. Think about that as well.

2) “First time I read it it was more than 20 years ago. Back then I just accepted word for word even though some of the stories were puzzling.
For example – Noah’s Ark
This used to be one of my favorite sunday school story.”
—Well Joe it is more than just a story. Ron Wyatt is a man that God chose to find remnants of the major Biblical miracles. So -among other things- he found Noah’s ark (with the exact size mentioned in The Bible):
He is not an archaeologist, but he doesn’t have to be! See it with your own eyes and be the judge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y5ORpMTebI&NR=1
If you want more links on the found remnants of the Biblical miracles, let me know.

3) “Alex, without getting all religious, think about it. All those animals cramped in the Ark (Please spare me of any band-aid explanations). Does it make sense to you?”
Yes, when I think of the fact that 2 of every kind were on board and that God probably called forth young ones, it doesn’t seem to be a problem.

4) “Another one is “incest”. C’mon Alex, even a third grader would know something is not right.”
—Yes, he would today, but not “in the beginning”. Since life started with two people, this is inevitable. Morally there was nothing wrong with it, since it is not something man decided to do, but something God allowed. Think about this: God who makes nature, is the One who rightfully can say what is natural and what is not, not us alone. So, sex among brother and sister was then, not an immoral act, but the -then- natural means for humanity to grow. But I’ll add this.
Why do we consider sex between a brother and a sister immoral today? Did you ever think about it? “Because it just is!” is not an answer. I mean, the only difference with other couples is that they are from the same parents. What I am trying to say is that society has drawn this margin in morality (probably influenced at the beginning from the first religion [God's]) and then, later, biology (see the link) and then God! If there wasn’t God and no danger to the child born from them, you could not prove to yourself that this “incest” is immoral. I mean they -from a strictly human perspective- are just “making love”.

5) “I could go on and on about Genesis. Once Genesis fails then rest of the old testaments become impossible to stomach. I truly believe book of Genesis was fabricated just like any other mythical books.”
—Well, there is no claim that has not been refuted on this issue. I beleive you have learned about Genesis from the wrong sources and that you should give it a new objective more mature ch