The Big Silence
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The Big Silence

2010, Religion  -   92 Comments
7.32
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Ratings: 7.32/10 from 38 users.

The Big SilenceAbbot Christopher Jamison, a Benedictine monk, believes that he can teach five ordinary people the value of silent meditation, as practised by monks in monasteries, so they can make it part of their everyday lives.

He sets up a three-month experiment to test out whether the ancient Christian tradition of silence can become part of modern lives.

Christopher brings the five volunteers to his own monastery, Worth Abbey, before sending them to begin a daunting eight days in complete silence at a specialist retreat center.

Journey into the interior space that time in silence reveals. They encounter anger, frustration and rebellion, but finally find their way to both personal and spiritual revelation.

Will they make silent contemplation a part of their everyday lives? How much will their lives be changed by what they have discovered in their time in silence And will Abbot Christopher's hope, that they will discover a new belief in God, be fulfilled?

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Alison Rosenberg
Alison Rosenberg
11 years ago

Beautiful documentary. I agree with the 3 at the end that you don't have to connect God with religion. I believe religion is man made but spirituality is something that can be achieved by all. I'd really love to take part in a silent retreat one day.

Trina Dionne Tilson
Trina Dionne Tilson
11 years ago

For those who suggest that the Benedictine discipline of silence is new or a take off on new age religion- St. Benedict formed his Rule and monastary about the year 530. Silence was not a concept either. I really enjoyed the documentary and love Norvene Vest's book No Moment Too Small that is an easy read but has exercise that introduce ways to bring the disciplines of prayer, study (lectio divina) and silence into the daily life.

Dolores Thomas
Dolores Thomas
11 years ago

Reminded me very much of Zen Buddhism and some versions of Yoga, which also operate on silence and inner focus. In the end, maybe it's all the same, whatever name you give it.
That's why I appear to understand why some of these people resisted ("antipathy", father Christopher calls it) embracing Catholicism. There is a big distance between spirituality and doctrine, that should not be ignored.
Gorgeous documentary, indeed. I also watched the full 3 hours all at once.

MarianneVW
MarianneVW
12 years ago

Beautiful, what an experience.

The integrity and warmth of father Christopher touches me. I have experienced the monasterian tradition and spirituality of the Carmelites and it's become a part of my life.

Silence, such a life tresure. It's possible to include one part of silence, even when it's just a minute of five, in every day life.

Gavin Doig
Gavin Doig
12 years ago

Some of the music is lovely. reminds me of Richard Skelton and his Broken Consort. Well worth watching.Very enjoyable.

ALAN BOYCOTT-GARNETT
ALAN BOYCOTT-GARNETT
12 years ago

lovely..a documentary about silence...with tasteful incidental backing from the 'bbc soundtrack' cd....just turn stuff o

rned on (edit) further on..from what that hELEN SAID seems the monks have dukebox....or a ace venue for synthesis x :)
btw cat n'pgeons, i thgt the BBC was ad free? i won't peek but i guess them's monks retreat got a site?....nn x

silence isn't lack of noise.. its there all the time, like a bike u can ride? now there's a thought........

Duncan Geoghegan
Duncan Geoghegan
12 years ago

The 5 in the documentary were emotionally vulnerable, either from recent deaths, a shitty childhood or from losing their job. They're not a fair cross-section of society, but that doesn't mean silence doesn't help.

This would be an interesting documentary: take 5 religious leaders and get them to smoke DMT for 8 days... would they attribute the God they find to their religious practice or the magic cigarette they just smoked? And even if they held on to their religious beliefs, why would their God choose to reveal Himself through DMT, or another psychedelic...?

John An
John An
12 years ago

This is a fantastic documentary!

I watched the whole thing in one go - even though it's in 3 parts, an hour long each. I had tears in my eyes towards the end of the second hour...
The transformation and the opening up of the five souls - like that of a pine cone - was just beautiful... The way that the 'ego-masks' were dropping away by the end of the 8 day practice was just wonderful.
I have to do this as well. I'm inspired...

It just shows that all of us have a connection with the divine, if we just are willing to step out of 'the matrix'. (And what a seductively binding matrix it is...)

John An
John An
12 years ago

@ SaintNarcissus

You my friend are an inspiration. I love your intelligence and thoughtfulness which you put into your debates, with some of, ahem, 'much lesser kind'.

Frankly, I find atheists such "wannabes". I can accept agnostics, at least they're honest about it. But atheists, who shout from roof tops that they know with certainty there is no God, when God is so much bigger than their little materialistic theories, are just plain infuriating....
They just regurgitate the babble of 'Dawkins and co', (the new pseudo-intellectual-fad of 21st centruy) - who are making mighty fine profits peddling half ass philosophy, to an ADD generation.
Atheists are very much the new dogmatists - the very thing they hate.
The irony is, they're absolutely blind to their way of speaking.

So thank you for letting me see that there may be some hope in the world. Loved reading your masterful wisdom. :)

Tim Neal
Tim Neal
12 years ago

This is a great point about the power of silence and creativity. I would add that there is a bit too much superimposing of religious ideology on the silence or suggestions of what will happen when you enter silence instead of just bringing in the people and letting them discover what they will and phrase their discovery however they want.

Jayne Graves
Jayne Graves
13 years ago

I have been fascinated from the moment I came upon this documentary - THE BIG SILENCE. It brought up many meaningful thoughts and caused me to think about the ability to silence ourselves so that we can hear our Father Creator who I do believe is present whether we access His presence or not. Through silence, if we believe, we are filled with His Spirit and receive wisdom that is beyond our own consciousness. I was intrigued with the spiritual guides comments regarding each person in the experience. They seemed to have understanding of human nature beyond most of us. I really like the way they related to the people practicing silence. They added to the depth of the experience. The BIG SILENCE brought many bible passages to mind: Psalm 46:10 Be Still and Know that I am God
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -
His eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Would love to go to Wales and do 8 days of silence. Since Wales is not close - I am motivated to go to a monastery closer by for silence. To God be the Glory.

Jacob Yackobo Sergent
Jacob Yackobo Sergent
13 years ago

I think he means god is always there but if your head is full of noise how can you taste or know something so subtle and wonderous?

za
za
13 years ago

uh-oh.

I hope I didn't hear what I just heard. The Father said that "if you ain't got a pure heart, then you can't see G-d."

Rubbish.

I hope he didn't mean that. Because if you're a Christian, you can't attain to purity of heart without G-d. And if you can't see God until you're pure, you've set up a very nasty catch-22.

I hope he and the Church don't really believe that, because is they do, then they're playing games with your souls. And that's manipulative and it's evil.

za
za
13 years ago

It's amazing how we as humans don't really grasp how accustomed we are to noise, distraction, and diversion. I've visited several monasteries (Trappist) and had identical feelings and perceptions as the people in this documentary. When you're born into something, and live within it (our cultures), we don't know that it can be different.

Get bored? Turn on the telly. Grab a book. Call a friend. Play a game. Find some busy work. All of these things are fine, but if they are what we do exclusively, then we are missing out on so much.

Think about it this way. Imagine yourself day after day after day, having someone following you around talking at you constantly. Never a break. Always words thrown at you, even while you sleep.

You'd go mad.

And we are going mad.

Because that's exactly what we do to ourselves. That person following us around all day, talking relentlessly, is ourselves.

It's called thought. And we never get a real break from it. Meditation and meditative prayer does that for us. It's a vacation for our minds. A silent mind is a mind that listens. It's no longer clogged with thoughts. It is free.

And if our intention is to be more loving, generous, kind, forgiving, etc., then what we will hear is the wisdom it takes to do just that. It comes in through the silence. It really does.

I haven't yet seen the entire thing, but so far, it's a truthful portrayal, as far as my own experience goes.

StarboundMonkeys
StarboundMonkeys
13 years ago

Isaac Newton would sit passively for several solid hours at a stretch, day after day, just letting understanding of a situation develop incrementally in his imagination, slowly budding, branching and flowering like a plant. He said that this practice of holding a subject "ever before me" was the secret of his great genius, and that Truth was "the offspring of silence and unbroken meditation".

Matt
Matt
13 years ago

Yes Tamma! That's what I also said in my own comment.

Tamna
Tamna
13 years ago

I was about to watch the video and thought I'd read the first few comments. After reading them, all I could think was "Why can't those who commented comprehend written English?"

I am speaking of those who took issue with the inclusion of Christianity, God or "a belief system" being discussed by those who were in the video.

Did you not read the first WORD of the description, let alone the first two short paragraphs?

Here, let me copy them down for you:

ABBOT Christopher Jamison, a BENEDICTINE MONK, believes that he can teach five ordinary people the value of silent meditation, as practised by MONKS in MONASTERIES, so they can make it part of their everyday lives.

He sets up a three-month experiment to test out whether the ancient CHRISTIAN tradition of silence can become part of modern lives.

In the description above what exactly makes you believe that the persons in the documentary will not include references to Christianity, God and/or a belief system that is connected to the CHRISTIAN tradition of silence?????

Sheesh people, what did you expect?

If the documentary had been set in a secular environment run by those not part of a religious order, you might have had a point. It wasn't and you don't.

Femaloid
Femaloid
13 years ago

I am an atheist and I have done a similar retreat, but it was also at a catholic monastery. Where would an atheist or non-religious person go for a similar experience? I guess they could just go to a cottage and bring a psychologist with them or something.

eryn b
eryn b
13 years ago

A spacious, brave experiment with silence. Really, isn't it intriguing? How often have I explored the inner space of my own experience? Very Brave I think. Such a rare opportunity. I'm thankful to all of these folks involved, for their honesty and courage. I highly recommend trying a retreat with some tradition or group that you feel has the ability, and familiarity and expertise to guide participants in having some supportive silent time like this. You may doubt and criticize all you like, but you won't REALLY know for Yourself until you try it. ... be curious...

Olivier
Olivier
13 years ago

I have experience with this sort of thing. Being alone, particularly in nature, is nothing less than sacred for the person who has the spiritual equipment to realize it. I've more than once been a guest on retreat at a particular monastery in Atlantic Canada. It really is, at first, either a huge relief -- like stepping out of a painfully loud room -- or a shock immediately preceding symptoms of withdrawal from the frenetic buzz of urban life. No advertising, so spin, to stigma, no praise... just you. After a few days, the head clears, much like the ringing in one's ears fades away after standing too long next to a blasting speaker. Perspective widens and nature itself reveals itself to you, naked as it always has been. But now you have nothing to do but pay attention. In any case, that was my experience. Whatever you presently claim to believe concerning the existence and origins of consciousness in the universe, as well as the exact nature of its relationship to the human skull, including your own, it can all be understood most clearly and felt most powerfully on the background of substantial silence and solitude.

sebastian liew
sebastian liew
13 years ago

This is a good movie. It reminds the Westerners who are seeking spirituality to look into their own traditions namely Christian in general and Catholic monasticism in particular.
I am Asian a convert to Catholic from Buddhism. I am glad that the Christian tradition do have the msytical path just like some Eastern faiths. In my opinion, the Catholic msytical tradition looks into meditaion not as a technique or an attainment to something or someone but a relationship with our Creator. It is the practice of no self ; a life of surrender. A life of surrender; living for my Beloved God is what really make me at peace with myself and others.
Life begins to have real meaning and happiness.

Keith
Keith
13 years ago

Thank you Jack!!! Ah the sweet sound of solid reasoning. I absolutely agree. I don't regard the bible as a scientific text and I don't see my faith as needing to be in the realm of certainty. Creationists who embarrass themselves by trying to turn bronze age texts into scientifically reconcilable documents are out of their depth and plain wrong, as are supposedly empirically concerned atheists who see it as their role in life to badger people with religious beliefs. My religious experience, or whatever you want to call it, is based above anything else upon my own experience which is absolutely subjective and I wouldn't have it any other way. One is subjective, and as you say personal. Science, as you say, is not.

Thank you. And thanks for clarifying the bit about anger, also an excellent point.

See people? See what can happen when we think and dialogue instead of reacting and presuming? Its a lovely thing.

jack1952
jack1952
13 years ago

@ keith

In the above post, I should have said "as that is in the nature of trying to discover new facts"

jack1952
jack1952
13 years ago

@ keith

I was referring more to those who think they're smart and believe their anger proves them right.

Personal beliefs as pertaining to religion, are just that; personal. They are neither right or wrong. They only exist. When asked how you feel you can't be wrong if you are honest about your feelings. Science is based on facts and is therefore subject to errors as that is the nature of facts. Science and religion are two different disciplines. They can co-exist but only when we make a conscious effort to allow it to happen.

Genie
Genie
13 years ago

Jacque Fresco right? Well put, I must say. I myself am catholic and was raised with it. But I am my own person with my own responsibility to check into things. My parents and the generations before me checked into things as I have. We have all came to the conclusion that what we were raised to believe is truth. There are unfortunatly many people that dont study their religion. That leads to people doing and saying wrong things in the name of their religion. The same happens with Atheists. Many times I hear or read misinformed statements about Christianity from Atheists.

Keith
Keith
13 years ago

@ Genie, regarding your last comment I heard a good and challenging quote from a wise Atheist futurist who sees no place for religion in a potential future utopia. He was asked what he thought of Christianity and his response was something like, "I think it's a great idea, when are they going to do it?"

Like I said before, though we are not the ones with the money, the bullhorns, the signs, the political noise or the guns, some of us are attempting to "do" it.

Keith
Keith
13 years ago

@ Tipsy, thanks for the Chesterton quotes. He was indeed brilliant.

@ Princeton

Okay, your definition. Christian means "little Christ" so to identify myself as a Christian I identify myself as someone whose ideal is to emulate Jesus Christ's way of life and to apply his teachings. The primary source for this teaching indeed is found in four books of the modern Bible. However, the canon was formed three centuries after Jesus, and the early church after him were around. The Bible such as we have it today is an important document, surely it is the important document for understanding what Jesus was about and what context he lived in. But for me, I am no less a "little Christ" simply because I do not make an idol of an ancient collection of writings that make up an important part of the historical narrative of the tradition that I am a part of. It's funny you say if not the Bible than "which book?" Why must there be a book? I am part of an experiential tradition, with many flaws, and a book need not be at the heart of it. Aboriginal Australians have a defined spirituality and belief system that has been intact for tens of thousands of years! So, I am okay with being part of an evolving tradition (evolving away from violent and dogmatic bible obsessed expressions) that is only 2,000 year old. So, part of your definition is more or less correct, but your assumption that it simply must revolve around a book is wrong. And you, and many vitriolic commenters hang nearly all of your snarky arguments on attacking the Bible. If you do this in an argument with a fundamentalist and biblical literalist, you'll get somewhere and you would be in the right. But to insult me and assume rhetorical superiority without understanding what I and many others believe, and we have every right to call ourselves Christians, is pointless. If you want to argue with ME, though I'd prefer an actual dialogue, please direct your criticism at my beliefs and statements rather than at what you assume them to be based on a clearly incomplete education or worse a quote pulled from a website. I will offer the same courtesy. I'll dialogue with Princeton, whoever you may be, on your terms rather than with Sam Harris, Dan Dennet, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens or the flying Spaghetti Monster. I promise it would be a much more useful and interesting conversation.

Keith
Keith
13 years ago

@Jack1952
Again, you are referring to only some people with some beliefs and assuming that your limited perspective (we ALL have a limited perspective as just one person) is comprehensive enough to explain the whole of Christian, let alone religious in general, belief. I love science and am an avid reader of science magazines, watcher of documentaries. My understanding of the big picture of God and truth has plenty of room in it for scientific facts...all of them. I do expose myself to moder science, all the time and I love it. I do NOT repeat things others have told me. Incidentally 9 out of 10 arguments attacking my faith (entirely unprovoked usually) are precisely that...parroting what Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, Shermer, etc. etc. say. Interestingly one argument that those well-educated atheists do not offer is that they can disprove the existence of God. That argument is only offered by people with far less understanding and wisdom. As I've said before, so far science has not disproven God. If and when it does, we'll have a different conversation. So while I appreciate your live and let live attitude, I don't appreciate the condescension and presumption that your statements preceding it suggest. The fact is, your limited understanding of what certain religious beliefs are, is not adequate to explain or dismiss any one with whom you have not shared close relationship such that you know what THAT individual believes.

Genie
Genie
13 years ago

I think the Atheists are the ridiculous ones in the conversations against religion here. You can not prove that god does not exist. No you dont HAVE to prove it to declare it. Neither does a religious person have to prove the existence of god, purely because of the nature of the god concept. So to declare up and down that god doesn't exist and get angry and bash people with words for their belief, is ridiculous. To feel it is your duty to inform people that god may not exist is ridiculous because maybe you should understand that god MAY exist. So in short, if you want to sit and declare that god doesnt exist, then you better be prepared to prove that statement, or maybe you should remain "silent", and move on. If some one was to follow the teachings of christianity, no one would be hurt as a result, and no "atrocities" would be commited.

jack1952
jack1952
13 years ago

You just can't get angry enough to make a foolish man smart.

Tipsy
Tipsy
13 years ago

Once again, I find myself frustrated by the religious context of these comments. I'm with Jack on this one - can't we just accept that everyone believes different things, and let it lie?

Atheists, agnostics, stop badgering - you wouldn't want people telling you that you're wrong for believing that your head will still be attached tomorrow, and in a way, that's what you're doing to them.

Religious folks, keep in mind that if you're making a comment praising God, you're unintentionally prodding a hornets nest.

And to both sides, nothing you say will change what the other thinks about life. You cannot argue God away, nor can you convince God into someones life.

As for the doc, I liked it. It was an interesting social experiment to see people almost completely removed from a social environment. I've always enjoyed being in the quiet, away from people, perhaps this is why. I do love my reflecting time.

Matt
Matt
13 years ago

I would like to contribute to this discussion by giving three quotations from G. K. Chesterton. You might want to simply meditate on them in silence; i.e. do not hang on to them as 'great truths', not debunk them as 'wrong'. Just mull them over.

1. "The trouble with Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting but that it has been found difficult and left untried"

2. "Insisting that God is inside man, man is always inside himself. By insisting that God transcends man, man transcend himself"

3. "When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing - they believe in anything".

Keith
Keith
13 years ago

@Princeton,

Please have the decency to call me by name - I post my real one by the way - rather than a condescending "buddy." Feel free to call me buddy when you are open minded enough to have an exchange of ideas instead of what you percieve as some kind of foregone conclusion intellectual smackdown.

Anyway, again, I don't have time to go indepth but just a note. You say I'm dodging the fact that certainty can be achieved. I do not say it couldn't, I say it hasn't yet. Quite different. I don't make extraordinary claims about A,B,C and D being true. I choose to believe certain things based on my experience and I foist them on no one. I don't require extraordinary evidence as proof for you, I have sufficient evidence for myself and so long as I'm not insisting you accept my beliefs, I can't and don't need to supply you with proof that you accept.

The only out of the ordinary claim you make is that God can be disproven. Again, most scientists of importance will not make this claim and I am NOT referring to religious ones. I thought I made that pretty clear. By "experts in relevant fields" I meant non-religious and impartial physicists and such. Unless you have some data to actually challenge that assertion, simply deciding that anyone who disagrees with you must be religious is absolutely silly.

I'll get to your definition tomorrow when I have time.

Deedee
Deedee
13 years ago

This was a wonderful documentary. I am so very glad I stuck with it, because this is exactly what I want for my life..to be able to be silent just to hear my true self. And I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that my true self is what touches God.
I cried throughout this story..I feel very glad for each participant. And I would love to see a follow up to know exactly how they are using there own experiences in a very selfish world. God bless them and I hope everyone else who sees this enjoys it just as much as I did!

keith
keith
13 years ago

@Billy

You'd make Billy Graham proud with your evangelistic zeal and reasoning. Unfortunately something that evangelists warning of hell or God delusions don't realize is that people can't be saved that way.

@princeton, I look forward to responding tomorrow when I have more than thirty seconds, but for now I'd like to applaud you on your mastery of wikipedia and google in defining what I believe.

princeton
princeton
13 years ago

hurray @keith
"No, you’re arrogant to assume certainty of something much more esoteric"

buddy.. this is just a weasel way of dodging the fact that certainty can be achieved.. and when it comes to science or any search for truth.. It is not up to me or others to disprove your extraordinary claims.. matter of fact, with extraordinary claims, must come extraordinary evidence. nice try putting it back in my court, but no.. I did not make any claims outside the ordinary, but as a christian, I am almost certain you do!
as far as scientists and "experts in relevant fields".. many are religious.. so i cannot speak for them. i just follow the logic and evidence.

A Christian is a person who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah (the Christ in Greek-derived terminology) prophesied in the Hebrew Bible, and the Son of God.
and if not the bible, then which book?

right on @ jack & billy bingbong

jack1952
jack1952
13 years ago

@ Billy Bingbong

To finish, I have a reason for my "live and let live" attitude. Recently someone very close to me was diagnosed with terminal cancer.
She spent the last 18 months of her life reading her Bible and in prayer. I knew her all her life and that faith brought her an inner peace that she had never experienced in her life. Even though I could not share in her belief system, it would have been cruel of me to try and dissuade her of those beliefs and the tranquility it brought her.

I sincerely thank you for good wishes and hope the best of luck to you Billy.

Billy Bingbong
Billy Bingbong
13 years ago

Yes Jack, thank you for giving this some clarity for me. I look at Sebastians comment above yours and all I see is a typical religious person who would NEVER allow ANY form of changing his mind on this matter - and he is believing in an invisible man who performs magic! I can't stand it, I have had it with religious debates, it is quite possibly the silliest thing for a human being to do - to believe in something mystical and magical without any solid evidence yet so many do, it is beyond reason to me. I can only come to the conclusion that ALL religious people have been brainwashed as I stated earlier, because I find it hard to believe that a 30 year old man can believe in an invisible magic man without doubting it. How brilliant those bibles must be, and also the peer pressure from families as one grows.
I have said my piece, good luck to you Jack.

jack1952
jack1952
13 years ago

@ Billy Bingbong

Sometimes it is difficult to judge whether someone has been brainwashed or not. Since information is readily available to all, many have been exposed to modern science and have freely chosen to continue to believe that this does not fit in with their spirituality. Others just repeat what they are told without any real thought behind it. Either way it is very difficult to change their minds. As long as they don't try to suppress new ideas or limit discussion and education of these ideas, I say live and let live.

sebastian liew
sebastian liew
13 years ago

I find some comments and negativity on God quite disturbing. What is wrong mentioning about God? Do you have a inner conflict with this term? Look deeper into your own issue. Why is the word God irritating to you?
Christianity no doubt has shaped Western and modern civilisation.
I am Asian and was once a Buddhist and now I embraced Catholic. But I don't find any conflict on this. In fact my Buddhist education enrich my Catholic faith.
BTW, for Westerners no need to look so far to Eastern religious for spirituality. The Christian culture especially the mystical part do the same or if not better.

ProudinUS
ProudinUS
13 years ago

Ive meditated for years!
1)First i visit my thing I like to call "Happy bag"
2)I reach inside bag were god mysteriously put a special herb just for me to enlighten the stress of everyday hustles and bustles
3)I'm naturally advised to put this special herb in what is known as " the pipe with many meanings."
4) light herb in the pipe and take a big drag.no need to be afraid to hold in for good 30 sec.before exhaling.THis magical herb will tend to want you to listen to a pink floyd album which was gods true gift in music.If god has not blessed you with the magical tunes of floyd,your sure to have a Zeplin or willie Nelson tune available.If those are not at your disposal maybe you should reconsider the whole meditation thing and go to rehab!

Billy Bingbong
Billy Bingbong
13 years ago

@Keith Sorry for the confusion, the question you asked about was rhetorical. Thank you for your response.

@Jack, What you are saying makes a great deal of sense. As I believe religious people have been brainwashed unfairly, I take it as a duty to help them understand the possibility of this. You are right a person has the right to believe what they want to believe, but what if a person has been unjustly convinced of something that is actually false?

jack1952
jack1952
13 years ago

When I read the posts on these sites I find that there are atheists and theists who are strong extremists. I'm confused by the "your going to burn in hell forever" religious zealots who still profess to love everyone. Equally though I'm surprised at the anger shown by the atheists who arguments usually end in name calling and a call to not tolerate the religious crackpots. I'm not sure what this intolerance entails but I don't like the sounds of it.

The pursuit of happiness has been called a basic human right. That would suggest that one should not impose, threaten or browbeat another person to believe something that that person chooses not to believe. Moral condescension cannot engender the goodwill that should guide all our lives.

My apologies to those on both sides who truly try to engage in thoughtful and respectful discussions.

Keith
Keith
13 years ago

@Genie, while I do my best to avoid generalizations about whole groups (despite enduring it every time I open my "mouth" on a forum like this), I get annoyed too by that frequent phenomenon. Sometimes I admit I just want to ask SOME of the people I wind up talking to...do you realize that for every carefully reasoned 10 arguments I offer in sincerity...I get back a handful of bitter, condescending, poorly reasoned and usually regurgitated (bad rip-offs of hitchens usually)excuses for arguments? It gets tiring, but you know once in a great while (I'd say maybe one in ten)I get deep in discussions that start that way and I have managed to talk people back from the stark-raving-atheist brink and manage a civil conversation in which we both learn something, which is all I really want out of it.

All that said...thanks for having my back. :)

Genie
Genie
13 years ago

Atheists are so annoying when they get on a tangent on the internet. All the use of big words and snarky comments in an attempt to seem smarter than a christian. When will they understand that it makes them look like, well, a snarky, rude, arrogant a-hole.

Keith
Keith
13 years ago

@Princeton

so I am arrogant to know that no where ever in the universe will 2+2=76? maybe somewhere in the universe a naked ape can survive 1,000,000 degrees unaided? or maybe its possible I don’t exists! I think not.. there is plenty we can know without a doubt.

No, you're arrogant to assume certainty of something much more esoteric. Of course there is plenty we can know without a doubt. There are also things that up to this point we cannot. As I said, astrophysicists who do not believe in God would not be as declarative as you are. Perhaps I should ask, are you an expert in a relevant field?

Regarding your second paragraph. If you'd look closely at what I said to you, you would realize I am not suggesting that science can prove anything about God. I have made it clear that I don't find value in trying to PROVE Christianity or the existence of God empirically. My point is that these things cannot be DIS-proven. I am saying that when you are dealing with things that are beyond the realm of current science, science can't comment on whether it does or does not exist, and good scientists don't. They simply say, we don't know. When asked if there might be an even tinier particle in matter than the tiniest one discovered, they'll tell you, we don't know. When asked if there is life beyond our galaxy they'll tell you, we don't know. I accuse you of arrogance because you are not willing to be humble enough to admit that you don't and can't know. "I believe" or "I do not believe" are very different from "I know" and "I do not know."

You said, "if you are a christian, then you must either accept what is taught in the text.." Okay, please be so kind now as to educate me on proper theology, and perhaps state your educational credentials. Please begin by defining "Christian" for me. Next define what "acceptance" means in a religious sense. Then tell which text or texts every Christian must accept, and tell me who says this is so, and how you know they say it is so, and how you know that what they say is the defining authority on what being "a christian" means. Your assumption continues to be that being a Christian all comes back to the Bible and so your means of impugning me is going to largely hinge on this. That is an assumption which is not accurate. In any case, if you can satisfactorily answer the questions above then it will help elucidate whether or not I have contradicted myself.

"one. it is my strong opinion (logically sound also) that you can only love others through love for yourself, and cannot love any other person more than you can love yourself. people put that selfless love act on, but its just not true, either that or its just not love." Playing semantics with the maxim does not in any way disprove the usefulness and even psychologically non-contradictory nature of the teaching. Any Christian teachers and mentors of wisdom or depth do not teach "selfless" love. In fact the core of this belief and its practice is based in the concept that we are all loved equally by God, so there is more than enough love in the cosmos to go around. Part of loving others sacrificially involves being at peace with one's self and indeed loving one's self by embracing the reality that one is deeply loved and accepted by God.

Your second point of the existence of God I already addressed and I'm not interested in proving the existence of God to you. As I said your argument for DIS-proving God are very weak in my opinion because we are talking about an intangible that even people like Dawkins and Hitchens will admit you can't fully disprove.

As to my experiences, I'm aware of all the studies your describing. All good and interesting stuff. I won't bore with you a novel-length explanation about the complexities of my own experience because I would never offer them as proof to anyone else. They are most certainly and admitedly subjective. I'm okay with that. Again, I'm not interested in proving anything but in having discussions, and in this case providing some defense from intellectually weak intolerance.

I'm glad to hear about that progress with atheists studying morality scientifically. That sounds positive and will only serve to make the world a better place. I look forward to the results. We have that desire in common, now if only we could engender a bit more civility and respect intellectually. When you say "the religious just did what they were told" you once again speak for people you don't know about about realities you scorn without seeking to understand. I do not make moral choices because someone or a text is telling me to do so. I certainly don't make moral choices out of fear. I make moral choices because they are right. Those choices are in sync with the teachings of Christ. I am empowered to do good, to be a better person through my spiritual experience. That is very different from "doing what I am told."

As I explained to Billy in one of my responses, if you personally have the fortitude as an atheist to be a great person who not only treats others well and fairly, but has deep personal peace and satisfaction then I am genuinely happy for you. I do not have that fortitude and draw strength and peace and meaning from my experience of God.

Keith
Keith
13 years ago

@Triforce

What you're essentially saying is that when I refer to Religion with a capital R, I mean the bad part. That's like saying, if you ever hear me refer to computers just assume I am referring to hard-drive crashes, lonely people who don't have a real life, and electronic waste piling up in landfills.

Atrocities and bad behavior have happened in human history from the beginning and will continue to happen. They have happened with religious motivation and with equal zeal and evil at the hands of marxists. People do bad stuff to people, sometimes it is religious.

I don't disagree with a single one of the things you describe as negative aspects of Christianity and its history. Not one. But to say that you understand and are qualified to judge what is "at it's core" is overreaching yourself. Christianity at its core is about following Jesus and his teachings, which when done results in people doing good things for other people and bettering themselves rather than the opposite.

You are right in saying that you are not qualified to judge my experience and tell me if its real or not, but then you go on to do so by kindly and condescendingly informing me about what and why that experience most likely is. You do not know me or my history and we are speaking through text online. You're hardly qualified to make any such judgment or even a guess. I get really frustrated by the repetition of presumption on this site and many forums like these. If I ever presume anything at all about any of you - your belief, your motivation, your experience, your hair color, your sexuality, whatever...please call me out on it because it is annoying and not helpful. Again and again I attempt to steer conversations to a useful place where we can discuss our own experience and belief but people seem to have much more fun (and perhaps by their own yardstick, success) talking to me about why what I believe or have experienced is flawed. Useless.

My point is don't presume anything you don't know to be factual. It is a waste of space to do so.

sollsam
sollsam
13 years ago

Connecting with oneself and spirituality has nothing to do with religion. It would have been a nice documentary if the God shit was not included.

I live in a country where silence is big part of everyone's daily life - Finland people hardly talk here. Sure it develops character and you see the effect on everybody. Most people are rational and have good disciplines. But silence didn't make them stupid enough to be religious. In fact the vast majority of the population don't believe in god. In 2010 alone more than 80,000 people have resigned from church membership.

I found it surprising when the monk tries to make a different interpretation of silent. I live with it everyday so do the majority of the population here. It is so depressing! It's killing me!

daniel
daniel
13 years ago

if silence is at the core of christian faith then why won't they all just shut up?

princeton
princeton
13 years ago

@keith
great.. let's get at it then.
'To presume that you can know beyond the shadow of a doubt what is or is not possible on a cosmic level is quite shocking"
so I am arrogant to know that no where ever in the universe will 2+2=76? maybe somewhere in the universe a naked ape can survive 1,000,000 degrees unaided? or maybe its possible I don't exists! I think not.. there is plenty we can know without a doubt.

in response to your reference to scientific discoveries.. all scientific observations regardless how baffling and strange must have a logically consistent explanation, or else we are dealing in mere fantasy and bias, not epistemology or knowledge, this is why science works.. to say such things as immaterial consciousness or some other self contradictory entity exists does not fit in this category, sorry!

"I, and many other Christians, happen to have a pretty practical view of the Bible – seeing it as a very flawed document"
lol.. contradicting yourself there.. if you are a christian, then you must either accept what is taught in the text.. or you just pick and chose what you like and run with it with no regard to fact, truth, or logical consistency (which is not found in the texts). I know there are many picky choosy Christians.. but to me its all the same, you find a fictional book, know it's just a book written by some guy, but then proceed to treat the parts you like as reality.. with no rational/empirical distinction or proof.
I mean there are kernels of truth in harry potter & Lord of the rings.. so what? its fiction and its kinda $illy to pick and chose some parts to use as a religion!

"Love God and Love every other human being on planet earth even more than you love yourself"
one. it is my strong opinion (logically sound also) that you can only love others through love for yourself, and cannot love any other person more than you can love yourself. people put that selfless love act on, but its just not true, either that or its just not love.
two. as far as loving god.. well.. first when you use that word "GOD" you have to be describing something very specific. god does not mean "everything that exists" or "inter-connectedness" and any other such hazy definition, because we already have words to describe such things without religion.
when you say "GOD" you mean immaterial consciousness, which is an impossibility, and you may even mean some infinite dude or all powerful person responsible for everything. Occam's razor renders all such concepts unnecessary and illogical, because our universe can be explained quite beautifully without resorting to personification of natural phenomenon.
You may have profound experiences and visions, and i submit most human life on earth does experience something of the sort.. but what we know for sure is that scientists have replicated those religious visions by stimulating certain parts of the brain.. again.. no need to reach and conjure up sky ghosts.. our brain is the most complex thing we know to exist, and it is responsible for what we experience as life love and beauty..

as for the last part of your post @ me.. the majority of the world is religious, and if you look at the world around you, it is a very nasty place. Religion of course has influenced more in both directions (good, evil) than atheist altruism because there are simply way more religious people.. but another reason for this is because atheists have to work to come up with logical justifications for moral edicts without the need for punishment or reward. morality is being solidified as a science and pioneers of recent have done a great job at clearly defining where morality comes from and what morality truly is in a scientific manner.. this is all pretty new & exciting stuff.. atheists for the most part didn't have this kind of moral clarity.. the religious just did what they were told!

I submit that morality out of fear or obedience is not morality at all....

you sir, have beautifully demonstrated my point which is to say people will use religious texts to satisfy their own prejudices and biases.. and just rationalize away the parts they don't like . even if it is a positive message or outlook, it is incorrect and errors can become dangerous no matter how benign they look on the surface!