Bloody Cartoons

2007, Religion  -   133 Comments
Ratings: 7.00/10 from 18 users.

Bloody CartoonsBloody Cartoons is a documentary about how and why 12 drawings in a Danish provincial paper could whirl a small country into a confrontation with Muslims all over the world.

He asks whether respect for Islam combined with the heated response to the cartoons is now leading us towards self-censorship. How tolerant should we be, he wonders, of the intolerant. And what limits should there be, if any, to freedom of speech in a democracy.

The director films in Lebanon, Iran, Syria, Qatar, France, Turkey and Denmark, talking to some of the people that played key roles during the cartoon crisis.

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133 Comments / User Reviews

  1. After watching this I feel no greater understanding for why there should be such violent reactions toward these cartoons. I'm a Christian myself and have seen countless cases of potentionally offensive expressions in all parts of media and among artists. For example one artist made a work he called "Piss-Christ", with a tank of urin wherein he put a cross. The artist is gay, so this was probably an expression of his contempt toward homophobic Christians. There have also been, it seems specially among the so-called "new atheists", a almost prosetilyzing movement against Christianity and the internet is filled by supporters that spend a lot of their time ridiculing belivers, calling it both "the root of all evil" and "delusion" and even seriously talking about defects in the brain and psychological problems as a reason for spirituality, such as "cognitive dissonance", "teporal lobe", "brainwashing", "mass hysteria" etc. Christianity seem to be the most viciously attacked religion of them all, despite that, or perhaps because of the general idea among Christians that one should "turn the other cheek", pray for and forgive any such people. Personally I have no interest in what to me seem like a closeminded, arrogant and ignorant movement, such as Richard Dawkins stand for. He is deeply hypocritical, being more fanatical the the most fundamentalistic variants of Christendom, seemingly wanting a ban against freedom of religion. I'd rather study serious scholarship about religion and genuine enlightenment and humanist ideals and and don't waste time with the abovementioned. So I find it puzzling why Muslims do not manage to just ignore whatever they find offensive, and just avoid to spend time with it if they don't like it, because the violent reactions against it are clearly just pouring petrol on the flames of the non-believers to want to produce even more offensive material, thus making an evil circle with offence and hurt toward all parts in the issue is increasingly accumulated, where lives are actually being lost becaust of it. Personally I'd never do anything that would offend either believers in other religions or non-believers, and I think this is the best path to put the whole issue to rest, because I don't think it's about freedom of expression at all, but the same old clash of civilizations between the West and East that have been going on since before the Persians and Greeks fought bloody battles. It's beyond all civilized behavious when Jyllandsposten is publishing satire about the Holocaust, to hold up freedom of expression as a "noble ideal". It's about equally fanatic principles on both sides, where people are willing to give their life to a principle that is just as meaningful as to be flogging a dead horse.

  2. islam is really really stupid.

  3. We have a double standard.Its okay to attack Christianity bu not ISLAM? As far as I'm concerned the cartoonist is a HERO

  4. i wish somebdoy had told the interviewer the reason muslims tradiotionally don't want the depiction of prophet mohammed is that pre-islamic arabia was an idol worshiping place and if there is a certain drawing of him that's accepted by the clergy, this might cause it to be (maybe) worshiped!if these guys go crazy about him so much as you watched they simply may worship the painting(or the depiction:whatever that might be).this is not acceptable by their religious text and they do not depict him in any means( the drawing he bought in Iran is Caliphe Ali not Mohammed.they scammed him by saying that's the last image of Mohammed:).There are examples of how mohammed was kindly and respectfully portrait in movies in the past in Hollywood.Nobody plays him, the camera moves in 1st person view looking at the world from his poin of view.Nobody demonstrated these movies because they were made with caring respect to that cultures sensitivities.And that's what it's about respecting the sensitivities of the "other".if you say we have freedom i can do whatever the heck i want, in your world ruled by your norms you are right,yet you are arrogant to the sensitivities of the others by abusing and going the extra mile with your freedom of speech!everybody likes a good cartoon with good humor as long as it doesn't hurt their core and show them the unthinkable in a sarcastic way!mock a simple imam, a covered woman ,or a zealot ,bigot follower that prays hate but keep the prophet out since its just too sensitive of a will never be like them they will never be like you at least don't step on each others tail along the way...especially over some cheap cartoons :)

  5. I wonder what the brother thinks about the one who insults the Prophet's Wife and Companions?

  6. What muslims fail to recognize is that for those with different faiths Mohammad means nothing!

  7. What muslims fail to recognize is that for those of different faiths Mohammad means nothing!

    1. That's because they don't really have a faith... All Allah Prophets and Messengers are important to Muslims We should be upset and hate if Jesus is mistreated, but Violence has no excuse at all this is fitnah, I wonder how these same Muslims feel about innovation and shirk that are practiced by these same violent Muslims. or even hate when the Prophet's wife and Companions are mistreated, as they are with the Shi'a of that land

  8. They always say over one, the Catholic Church also have over one billion members. There are a lot more Christians than muslims. But, really, who cares!

  9. Half these cartoons are just made to upset people, and aren't funny. I'm all for jokes but did anyone watch that stupid movie that caused all the grief? It's complete and total garbage. I don't agree with the violence but I do have to ask those that start these conflicts if they think there's a good point, or if they're just looking for ratings. We don't have Jesus cartoons like we have Mohammed cartoons, the few we do have most Christians would get quite upset over; and the religious can get all high on their horses but try to remember they've had a lot longer living in a modern society, Christians living in small communities full of huts and ancient technology would have been quite violent as well had I shown them a sketch of Jesus the Homo**.

    I'm not a violent man but if you poke me enough times in the chest don't go bitching if you catch a right hook to the chin. (Though I have a high tolerance for pokes to the chest ;-)

    ** I mean Homo Sapien, as in a human and of this earth, you damn homophobes ;-)

  10. Getting upset over a cartoon character seems petty and juvenile. So does stoning your sister because some lowlife raped her. Ive often wondered what it was that's kept these people 1000 years behind the rest of us. Maybe we could hire the Chinese to build a huge wall around them until they catch up.

    1. They want any excuse to hate the west, hence getting butt-hurt over such a ridiculous issue. Meanwhile, they have no problem burning american flags and wishing death upon those who do not believe in their fairy tale. Its a messed up world we live in...

    2. I agree with you because they the Non Muslims did worst to The Prophet Muhammad while he was living, and the best way to honor the Last Prophet to All Mankind is to follow and obey him. which many Muslims Do Not,But Laws in The west are manmade and will not stand the test of time, they're always amended, Because God is the true Legislator of Laws. I disagree with the reaction of the Muslim, this was an ignorant responds, Islam forbids Demonstrations and Protest, for it is Imitation of the Jews.. Bolsheviks , Marxist ways are rejected

  11. if there was no religion there would be some other crazy ideology. its just what we are... p.s islam is dangerous in been not tolerant to other religions. Often i find and argument that it is tolerant and peaceful, its just some people who take it to the extreme. But in truth they do spread their faith by "sword" historically. Turcks did it to most of the balkans, Ukraine, and some ex-soviet aisian republics.

    In Europe the mosques go up not because people of France or England convert. its because muslims migrate. Truth is islam does not work, it never worked in the political sense and it never will cuz of intolerance and hate.

    keep religion private not public. separate the state from it. move towards tolerance.

  12. @ Afroz Khan comment. Argument not valid. A) Islam was spread by force since it started particularly in my home country, the Balkans, and Asian republics by turks (no argument there). B) As a sociologist let me tell you that there is far more to the growth of islam then just the notion of its superiority. There are more Catholics (!) then muslims in the world. Not counting other christian denominations. a the migration of muslims around the world. the intermarries of those muslims, and the birth of babies in 3rd world (muslim countries) is by far greater then in the traditional families in the "new world" or the "old world"

    humanity can't live without religion, USSR tried it with force. didnt work, even under threat of been imprisoned or death. But islam does not offer the universal liberties and the freedom of individuals to pursue happiness. just blind submission into the "myth". Keep religion personal, not public. dont let it get into politics. that messes up ..

  13. There will NEVER be peace while we have religion, any form of religion.
    There will NEVER a time when we don't have some form of religion.

  14. For all the Islam hater kind information that Islam is fastest growing religion in the world without any aid like christian Missionary and by the Church. People like you are accepting it. Why?

  15. it was not the cartoon that hurt us much but the way it represented by the news paper. If you ever happen to look at the cartoon you can easily find that what was the newspaper intention. He showed a person with bomb on his turban like he is born violent and marked it as Muhammed saw.

  16. you act like superstitious,violent psychopaths and we in the west are expected to respect you! I for one will not tolerate is-lames selfish,paranoid intoleration.IF YOU LOVE THE WAYS OF YOUR RELIGION AND HOMELANDS SO MUCH; GO BACK!!! If you came to a democratic nation to live a freer live you have to understand that violent demonstrations orchestrated by ignorant and childishly sensitive clerics is the antithesis of a free democracy.

  17. There will never be peace as long as there's a God to die for.

  18. let peace be, religiously-motivated or otherwise.

  19. I lol'd at the "freedom of expression go to hell" sign

    Ah, the irony.

  20. for the real amswers read The Secret Terrorist by Bill Hughes. Roman church is behind it all, read and learn

    1. muslims always blame everyone else but never look to see why people do not trust them. They are the most two faced fork tongued people I have ever met on line. I read their comments but in real life they are all smiles. Well, I would never give them the time of day now or trust the word of one. To their bros and sisters yes but if you are not of their faith, they never accept it when you tell the truth. They push and push and push to provoke people so they can run and cry racism. I have read what they write online about black people and white `whores` The Church does not fill their heads with the filth they come out with. It is always sexual insults about your mother/your father and whoever else. That is coming from me who has never shown them hatred. They are haters of gays/blacks/whites. They are sick. I was all for helping them but after I was on the receiving end for NO REASON!!! I have totally turned away from even considering them to have any care for humanity. It is just not in their phyche. So well done haters, they managed to turn a very broad minded loving person against Islam.

  21. Most comments for this documentary are divagations. This documentary has nothing to do with the atrocities USA or any other made through foreigner policies, it is about the backwardness of the Muslim people who make revolts and kill people only for some scribbles on paper.

    Invoking arguments like Iraq war killings or that not all Muslims are terrorists or that Islam is about peace and tolerance, or others similar just demonstrates how childish and irrational you are...if you can tolerate criticism keep your opinions in the borders of your backward country or move with your "brothers" and "sisters" on the moon.

    Muslims want the whole the world the accept their point of view but in return they are totally closed minded to other a free society you have to earn the respect you think you deserve...grow up or GTFO.

    P.S. If my comment seems insulting is just because this kind of reaction is provoked.

  22. U.S. biggest babykillers ever...history will tell u

  23. My only question is when do we get to play Cowboys and Muslims..? You come looking for a fight in the GREAT Nation of the USA your gonna get one!!

  24. America doesn't commit "Atrocities". Atrocities are what the nazis and the soviets did. Atrocities are the genocide in Rawanda and Darfur. Atrocities are what the Kmer Rouge did in Cambodia and the systematic starvation of 40 million people in Maoist China. People die in war, that doesn't mean the side that is winning commited "atrocities". You people need to get your heads examined. Americans don't intentionally kill innocent women and children like these savage dictators in third world countries do. When American soldiers DO commit atrocities like My Lai, or Haditha, those are the actions of a few CRIMINALS and don't reflect the policies of the U.S., OR the will of the American people. To say we commit "Atrocities" is simply delusional. Muslim countries brutally execute people for the most minor of crimes. They prosecute and torture women for being rape victims. They have public beheadings. To sit there and say WE are the ones commiting "atrocities" is completely backwards, and makes me worry about the future of humanity. You people make me sick.

    1. That sounds alot like "the Jews killed Christ". It's called blame shifting.

      Americans don't commit atrocities? Got a scar on my back that says otherwise. Six months old and that soldier used his bayonet to check I wasn't a doll.

      Don't intentionally kill children? But will make loans to countries for things they don't need and then take 50% of their annual budget to make their bankers richer while demanding cuts to infrastructure projects that do promote progress and development.

      Law and order? The US has the highest incarceration rate per capita in the world and second highest in absolute numbers. Draconian 'security' measures that make for a scared, not safer, population. Permanent disenfranchisement for minor convictions with no pardon system.

      Backward? Put the remote down and pick up a book

    2. Poking you with a bayonet isn't an "atrocity" ,lol. It's just kinda messed up. Actually none of that stuff you said equates to what you are calling it. I WILL however ceed to you that our legal system is messed up right now, but it's better than sharia law by light years. At least when a woman is raped in our coubtry, we go after the rapists and not charge the poor victim with crimes, and possibly EXECUTE her. At least we don't have public STONINGS like a bunch of medieval peasants.

  25. Hi Gary V

    I'm Muslim and I watched this video out of curiosity and to see the other side opinion and remove any bias in my heart as much as possible . I admit that what Muslims did with burnings and such is wrong. Because Islam disapprove these kind of things. Islam reject violent acts and the Muslims should have done it in a peaceful way. what i am saying that Muslims SHOULD be angry but they should be wise also. They should be angry with one simple reason. Let me give u an example. If anyone insulted one of your family members or your dear friend will u be angry? Absolutely. So how will u expect insulting the most beloved person for more than 1 billion people? !!!. I am angry also but I will not go and burn flags or destroy anything( Because I am Muslim). and about your argument that gods are powerful so they won't bother these insults. Yes you are right because Allah (GOD) said that if all humans didn't pray and obey him that will not make any difference to him and if all the humans prayed and dedicated their full time to him it won't make any difference to him also. you brought a good point but you concluded the wrong conclusion (which is They feel "unsecure"). it's wrong because insulting our prophet Mohammed is not related to our Faith its related to our Pride as Muslims. It's wrong also because if someone insulted your brother or mother that doesn't mean if you are angry that you're feeling unsecure about your faith in them!!.
    and about democracy (and absolute freedom) i agree with sheikh garadawy . He showed and brought a very nice and clear way to show that absolute freedom can't be achieved. and i personally sees absolute freedom = total chaos. However, Freedom is a must and a right for every human being. and i want all of non-Muslims that thinks Muslims are not free to know that what we are discussing or expressing is the same freedom you all expressing ( but with different boundaries). god says in his holy book(this is the approximate meaning of his words not the exact phrase ) that we say to all non-Muslims that you have your own religion and we have our own religion we don't worship your god and you don't worship ours. god tells us that we don't need to impose our religion on anyone and everyone is FREE to chose what he wants. In addition, Islam teaches us to Respect all humankind and not to force anyone to enter Islam nor to insult anybody and any religion. This is our tolerance and respect to all mankind. and what we are asking back from anyone is Respect and peace. We are people who believes strongly in Allah and our prophet and you (the people of freedom) Should respect what we are believing in(I am not saying that you should believe in what we believes in, I am asking to just respect us) and respect our love to our prophet.
    I thank all who worked to create this video and informed me with things that i didn't know ^^

    1. If what you say is true, then a few muslims are making you ALL look bad. So if you want the western world to back off, it's time for moderate muslims like yourself to stand up and stop supporting the murderers. We see the throngs in the streets of muslim cities burning our flags and our leaders in effegy. We hear them chanting "death to America". If you want peace and equality, stand up and take your religion back from the fanatics who have hijacked it.

    2. Muslims burn flags, Christians burn Quran. Muslims chant "death to America". Americans killed 1,000,000+ Muslims in Iraq war alone, and still killing... That's the big picture.

    3. Muslims praise Jesus. Christians attack Mohamed.

    4. @ metalmaji

      Of course, Metalmaji, your point is well taken regarding the need to take a broader perspective regarding the mistreatment of women and the 4000+ executions of gay people and the murders in northern Europe of cartoonists. One ought, indeed, to attempt to grasp the "big picture." May I, however, point out to you, Metalmaji, that when America committed yet another atrocity against the Muslim world by commencing with its illegal bombardment and subsequent invasion of the sovereign nation of Iraq, demonstrations ensued INSTANTLY!!!

      Wikipedia states that:

      "According to BBC News, between six and ten million people took part in protests in up to sixty countries over the weekend of the 15th and 16th; other estimates range from eight million to thirty million.

      "Some of the largest protests took place in Europe. The protest in Rome involved around three million people, and is listed in the 2004 Guinness Book of World Records as the largest anti-war rally in history. Madrid hosted the second largest rally with more than 1½ million people protesting the invasion of Iraq, whereas Mainland China was the only major region not to see any protests, but small demonstrations attended mainly by foreign students were seen later."

      That is just some of the protests in the series of protests against just one of the many United States atrocities committed against Muslims(just ONE series!). Other regions and countries in which protests occurred were(according to Wikipedia) in:

      Alpine countries
      Bosnia and Herzegovina
      Czech Republic
      United Kingdom:
      Northern Ireland

      United States(New York and other U.S. cities)
      South America(wherever America could not kill demonstrators!)

      Middle East

      South Africa

      New Zealand


      In Holland, a boy's head was cut off after he had been shot in the back EIGHT TIMES. Why? He had published a cartoon depicting Mohammed as a bear.

      Where were your people then?!

    5. Bad people will behave badly.
      Good people will behave well.
      However, it takes religion to make otherwise good people behave badly.

      Case in point:
      4,000 lesbians and gays have been executed since the 1979 Islamic revolution. Methods of execution include; beheading, chopped in two, stoning to death, burning alive, and being thrown alive from a high building

    6. Bad people will behave badly.
      Good people will behave well.
      However, it takes religion to make otherwise good people behave badly.

      Cases in point:

      1. 4,000 lesbians and gays have been executed since the 1979 Islamic revolution. Methods of execution include; beheading, chopped in two, stoning to death, burning alive, and being thrown alive from a high building

      2. Pregnant woman to be stoned to death for adultery by Infidelesto on July 15, 2010.

      3. Tehran Court rules 25-year-old woman convicted of adultery must be executed despite pregnancy. Her lawyer hopes to have sentence ‘commuted’ to lashing.

      4. An Iranian court has sentenced two more women to death by stoning, a human rights group reported Thursday, adding the horrific sentence was made worse by the fact that one of the women was pregnant.

      5. Maryam Ghorbanzadeh was recently convicted of adultery and although she is pregnant, was sentenced by an Islamic court to death by stoning.

      Moderate Muslims' protests against this kind of behavior is conspicuous only by its absence. Otherwise, one would see millions of Muslims world-wide engaging themselves in peaceful protests against such behavior out of sheer disgust at how their religion is being defiled by radical Muslims.

      BUT, instead: s i l e n c e

      P.S.: How many peaceful demonstrations against this kind of behavior have YOU participated in???

    7. BS...I heard it all before...You can't rationally and morally justify the violence and hatred that comes from the Muslim people, especially those thriving in western counties.
      Islam, more than any other religion, is a disease of the brain, it will inhibit the neocortex and limit the cognitive abilities to that of a 6th century peasant.

      Europe had to fight for centuries to free herself from the oppression of religion and now these Muslims, going through their own "Dark Ages", scream "We want respect!!!"...For what?...For being intolerant (especially to criticism) and acting childish?...For having an imaginary friend that only they believe in?...For taking everything personal when attacking their religion?...For glorifying extremism?...For disrespecting everybody else?

      It seems Islam teaches a lot of things, but thinking for yourself and acting acting accord to your own moral framework is clearly not one of them...
      If you care about Islam and think it has a reasonable and moderate side then show it to the world, please speak out more...many insane people are acting in your name and the prophet you follow...dialog may be the only solution to all conflicts.

    8. muslims are liars and are permitted to lie. They are disgusting people and have no self respect. I could not even bother to read your clap trap because you have used taquiya something smart a** muslims do when conversing with non muslims. I have seen it first hand. they are deceitful cunning nasty human beings.
      No the press didn`t make me think this nor did the media. It is the filth that drips from the minds of these people on line and do NOT even think they are not real muslims because they are. You might have taquiya but the rest of the world does not. I have no respect for you people and you people have brought it all on by yourselves!

  26. Any so called God or prophet that can't withstand criticism, questioning or even ridicule can't be a very powerful God or prophet & any God that requires Human beings to do his work for him also can't be that powerful & is there for not worthy of any praise or reverence. This goes for all so called Gods of all religions. If your God is that powerful then they would not be concerned by a mere Human doubting them. To me it just shows the believers own insecurity of their beliefs if they think that their God requires mere Humans to do his work or that their God can't take criticism or questioning. There are no true historical pictures of either Jesus or Mohammed, so it is impossible to make any drawings or pictures of them. Until you can prove the existence of a God you can't accuse anyone of insulting them. Nobody can insult something that does not exist, so first you need to prove his existence.

  27. Muslims behaved as spoiled little children when it comes to universal humour . . . they can abuse, and be intolerant towards others, but they do not tolerate the same attitude they give to others - - - - It is Europe, it is a place of democracy, and equality, and the only group that did get offended were Muslims. . . . it is as hypocritical religion as Christianity, and one with out the other simply would not have any reason to exist . . . .

    1. Oh but don`t you know, they are not real muslims that behave badly, oh did you know it is only a tiny weeny minority. I agree with you totally. They are a disgusting blip on humanity. I ahve been on the receiving end of their filth and before that I had an open mind. If they can get a person like me to feel this way about them, well that just says it all. They are worse than adolf hitler. He appears sweet by comparison. They hurt people all the time.

  28. I've learned something I didn't know before tonight, did you know that wearing the veil or the Hajib is not a requirement of Islam. It's possible that until recently Islam had developed itself much as christianity did to be compatible with a peaceful democratic society but I found evidence of where the threat has originated from but also evidence that the threat has been present for decades and is growing rapidly.
    There will be war at some point in the future of that there is no doubt, I will post the link but you will have to wait for it to be approved. I'll comment on the video after I here your comments, I'm particularly keen to hear what you think Aisha.

  29. "...would you blame religion for it or would you blame that particular person..."

    The "a few bad apples" argument....
    This isn't unique to Islam. People have been using that same argument to defend pedophilic Catholic priests. That whole debacle occurred specifically because of the position of trust that Christian clergy hold in the west, just like the position of trust that your leaders abuse where you live.

    It's that abuse of trust that rankles me. The entire dogmatic structure that all religions share that allows it to persist is one of the things I find so offensive. Religion exploits one of the worst traits of man: "fear of the other".

    This is exactly what we see in Gaza (to use your example). Religion doesn't define the conflict, but it certainly defines the teams. It's the same anthropological mechanism that causes football riots.
    You don't see Emmanuel Kant's and John Stuart Mill's "believers" going at each others' throats, do you ?
    Fans of Shakespeare and fans of Dickens don't stage bloody battles every Christmas...
    Not too mention the bloody Dawkins/Hitchens rift within the atheist world that has ruined so many lives....(sarcasm).

    Why do we have Gazan muslims and Israeli Jews blowing each other up ?
    Because both of their religions SANCTION the conflict. The Catholic Pope could end child abuse by priests today by ordering them to take an example from civil law, not deal with it internally and allow civil authorities full access to investigate.
    But no, the Roman Catholic Church SANCTIONS pedophilia without actively encouraging it.

    Do you see the danger there ?
    It's far too easy for the faithful to use the "a few bad apples" argument to hide from the crime committed in the name of what they hold most dear, but that doesn't absolve you of the guilt that has been done in the name of that god you hold so high. The fact that moderate Islam SANCTIONS the acts of your "bad apples" is morally reprehensible and shows Islam to be yet another belief structure intended to take power away from the sheep and give it all to the wolves.

  30. aisha I've been reading a lot about voilence against christians in the middle east, did you know that it usually always occurs after friday prayers, it is said that in Egypt the muslim kids are taught to hate the infedel just like in the dispatches program called lessons in hate and intolerance.
    I see a pattern.

    1. besides one tv documentary, what evidence do you have?

      Is it from one of the many Egyptian citizens in your country? I doubt it...I doubt you've even taken the time to get to know one before you've come posting rumours about them on the internet.
      Unfortunatly i'm seeing a pattern evolving too.

    2. Taquiya! No one trusts Muslims, they are permitted to lie and lie they do. They are the most self conceited people who really believe they are superior. They are disgusting key board warriors and have no regard for human life and that is the ones living in the west. They demand and expect everything yet do not have the brain power to be critical of their own hatred for anything that is not Muslim and they have only there selves to blame. They are the new Nazi. I had time for them but I have witnessed their superiority complex. They disgust me and because of their behaviour I will never trust a Muslim.They are sick! They are racist and they are vile two faced people who speak with fork tongue!

    3. So what if you are if you see a pattern evolving. Go use your brain and ask yourself why. Go and see the comments these so called peaceful people write about white people. Go see what they write about non muslims. The rest of the World see a pattern in the disgusting conduct of your brother`s and sisters. Arrogant horrible people. That has come from me a very broad minded caring loving person. Should that not ring alarm bells for you ? No media did that, the behaviour they display did. Go cry somewhere else please you jumped up racist fascist.

  31. which to believe, abrogation and its actions or the word from the oppressed and manipulated

  32. Aisha, it's not just illiteracy: Iraq had one of the highest literacy rates of the Arab world and yet we saw a Sunni minority ruling a Shia majority. We are seeing the same thing in Bahrain as I type this.

    To say they are not "true Muslims" is a load of garbage. I'm sure they say the same of you, which is a great example of how religion turns people against one another over their interpretations of a FICTION.

    There was a body covered with a sheet lying in Pearl Square (Bahrain) last night...maybe you can tell him that there's no rift within Islam ?

    "i think this world would be at much peace if we step our foots on the journey of science and religion"
    Cultures with higher education rates tend to have lower religious observance: look at the decline of Christianity in North America and Europe that's followed the post-WWII prosperity.

    "wherever in Quran the message of killing someone is given its not on the basis of belief its on the basis of facts"
    I think that's one of the most outrageous statements I've ever read. Killing someone in the name of a fiction is NEVER justified. I say that killing someone is never justified, but that's my own opinion. No religion is sufficient reason to make taking another life acceptable. If you go back to the Koran, you WILL find a reason NOT to kill the person whose killing you think the Koran permits.

    The only reasons that religion is so popular among the illiterate are that

    1) It justifies an action one needs sanction for because it's socially unacceptable (eg. Mormon polygamy)

    2) It provides a false hope and requires a fatalistic outlook that makes YOU more docile and more easily manipulated.

    "...if a person has a little bit of sense and knowledge and open mindness he would..."
    Again the argument that someone's misinterpreting the Koran when they do things that are socially unacceptable. Are you actually suggesting that suicide bombers and xenophobic imams are simply wrong in their beliefs ?
    If Islam didn't exist, there wouldn't be any teachings to misinterpret. If you had to justify your actions based on your own morality rather than on a model given to you, would your behaviour change ?
    Remeber that you said " Quran the message of killing someone is given..."
    The moral code I've developed for myself during my time on this rock does not allow me to take another human life...for any reason...but CERTAINLY not because they believe something I don't. There's simply no way to misinterpret that.

    "i am totally against this animalism of humans"
    What about anthopomorphy (giving human traits to something non-human). You put a human face on nature and call it God. How is that any different ?
    It's still not a realistic view.
    The difference is, Christians by and large aren't insulted
    by the SouthPark cartoons: they don't boycott advertisers, they don't protest in the streets, and they CERTAINLY don't issue fatwahs against the likes of Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins or bomb the studios where it's made or the stations that broadcast it.

    I'll respond to the rest of your points when I have a little more time. Just a thought that would make it easier to read: instead of separating your thoughts with "...", hitting enter and leaving a space would be easier to read than a single block of text.

    to be continued...

    1. Your words are intelligent and well explained. I have to agree with most of the things you say. I find it unnerving the way "Religion" rather than unites, DIVIDES all people. Specifically the Religions involved with the "God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob." You do not see Hindu's or Buddhists rioting in the streets and destroying people's property. heck, even Christians don't do that "anymore?" I don't like to point fingers, but the Muslims, seem to be, the most VIOLENT of all Religions I have witnessed. Was Mohammad that bad of a fellow? Or do his "followers" just have the wrong idea? WHY are they "SO SENSITIVE?" Imagine if ALL Religions of the world, responded the way Muslims do whenever THEY get 'offended?" We wouldn't have to wait for the CFR to manipulate WWIII. It would happen "naturally." Which is how THEY are attempting to make it seem. "Imagine there's no heaven. It's easy if you try...." Just "imagine" if there were NO Religions to squabble about? Oh, "what a wonderful world it would be.".............."Living life in peace".....

  33. If you want to learn a little about Islam anyone then watch the links on post 165 on the conspiracy documentary called "missing links"

  34. @aisha I don't worship the devil so no thankyou keep him to yourself, it's the typical stance of the Muslims, think only of the good and ignore the bad, I know many Muslims and they say the exact same things as you, I wouldn't offend your religion etc, this is all deception, you will beat us up or kill us instead, but the reason you say that must be because you are a victim as much as us or else this is part of your training in public relations while your religion slowly gains in numbers before you bring your real feelings out in public.
    There is too much evidence to bring down your religion as simply a religion of hatred and complete intolerance and also of brainwashing.
    Are you a victim or are you told to give these responses hence why you wont defend Muhammad and Allah now because you either don't have any idea what I'm talking about or you do not have a defense for the criminal acts of him.
    I would love your Immam to tell you the answers to what I have said but I would recommend you do not say anything to him because you would be insulting the beloved prophet, the warlord who cut of peoples heads and enslaved women and you already know what he did to your namesake, compare him to Jesus and you will see that no one can insult Jesus hence we don't need fascism to defend him.
    You need to escape from they monsters.

  35. @aisha I know you believe in Jesus but you changed the whole story so in fact you don't actually really believe in the same Jesus. Answer me one thing if Mohammad is better than Jesus then why is he in a grave and as u say Jesus went directly to heaven after he swapped places with Judas. You say that a loving god wouldn't allow Jesus to be crucified yet he allows trickery, I think dishonesty is a worse thing for god to justify after all we all suffer pain. So if your god is so loving why do women get stoned to death for nothing.
    I can go on all day about the deception that Mohammad incorporated into the Koran.
    Basically what he said was if I have contradicted myself it's because god changed his mind and it isn't really because I'm a pirate who is making the rules up as I go to suit the situation to gain the greatest advantage.
    You are all mad so are you not talking to me because you cant think for yourself and you need an Immam to tell you what the Koran means.
    aisha please wake up

  36. @Mind control this is a brief part of gnostic christianity which I agree with 100% ("Rather than believe in the good of creation, Gnostics regarded matter and, in fact, the whole universe, to be a defilement of the deity -- the god of light/spirit. They taught that the ultimate end would be to overcome matter and be reunited with the parent spirit and realm of light/energy. This would not be achieved by submission to God's laws or through grace (God's forgiveness of man's sins) by acceptance of the living Christ -- the Son of God and Redeemer. Redemption or salvation would occur by awakening the sleeping gnosis (knowledge/wisdom) or "God within" -- through deep thoughts, reflection, and meditation thereby freeing the good spirit imprisoned within the evil physical body. )
    That sounds good to me, no rules you just find god within yourself, they actually believe there is a dimension which we do not see and this is actually not as crazy as it would seem if you have ever seen the leaked Nasa footage showing things which cannot be explained by the laws of physics as we know them. There have been numerous photographs taken which show unexplainable images of light which could resemble tiny space craft, these have been seen by astronauts inside of orbiting space craft and therefore that would suggest that all that we see is not necessarily all that is actually present, I would say it is possible that there is another dimension due to this evidence. It may be camera trickery etc but why do the astrononauts see it. I personally believe there is evil in us all but Islam focuses on the most evil aspects of human nature and amplifies it through negative propoganda and the preaching of intolerance. Other religions may have negative images of others but they do not actively call for non believers to be beheaded and for there ideas to be forced upon others. I havnt studied Gnostic christianity in depth I like they words and that is good enough for me. Gnostics also believe there is a bad god and a good god but I'm like you I have no desire to follow a religion and I also have no desire to go to heaven only to be a good human being and to make the earth a safe place for people and animals to live. To stop Evil.

    1. I beg to differ. It's not the "physical body" that is "evil." It is the HUMAN BRAIN, that develop's evil. "Sin" is simply allowing one's "human-nature," complete, uncontrolled, unbalanced-nature (desire) to hold sway over one's thought patterns. As well as one's actions.

  37. "Look forward to hearing some explanations."
    So am I, "JIAG"...

    I'm still interested to know why you see gnosticism as the "most true" belief. Logically, the ONLY one that can make that claim is agnosticism. "I don't know" is the only empirically correct answer.

    Instead of ranting against Islam, I'd like to hear some objective criticism, specifically why abuses perpetrated in the name of Islam are any worse than abuses perpetrated in the name of Yahweh, or Gonesh, or Ea.....
    You seem to have a specific hate on for Islam, I'm curious as to where that comes from:
    Is it a reaction to the negative press in the West ?
    Is it based on personal experience ?
    I think I've done a pretty good job of showing that ALL religions have been used to justify acting on man's base cruelty, so what makes Islam so different in that ?


    Aisha, your posts should show up right away - there isn't any moderation here that I've seen. Perhaps it was with your email/pass ? 'Operator error', maybe ? ;^)
    Since you've to answer the questions I posed to you before you disappeared ?

  38. @aisha you are unblocked it will be interesting to hear what defence you have for stoning women, wife beating, child molestation, hating other religions and giving them less rights than muslims after jihad, can u defend jihad? can u defend why islam seeks to impose sharia law on other peoples who have shown them hospitality in their country. Can you defend the palestinian agression against Israel on the grounds that Lebannon was a christian country until about 30 years ago until after the Muslims ethinically cleansed the christian population and that also jews have always lived there long before any muslim did. Can u defend islamic leaders calling for the death of american citizens and british and other nations who they claim are at war with islam. Can you defend the fact that every peacful verse in the Koran has been abrogated by the voilent verses. I love you aisha but I don't love your aggresive religion and so this is my beef. Look forward to hearing some explanations.

  39. Your comments suggest an ignorance of history. Once a 'criminal' was crucified under Roman law, his debt was paid. It was up to the deceased's family and friends to take him down and do whatever suited them with the body.

    Why then would it be unlikely that his body would be washed ?

    You clearly have some issues around religion. Unfortunately, I think it's clouding your ability to make a reasonable arguments. Comments like "pedophile pirate from hell" and "Islam is not even a religion" just don't make sense and they sound petty and spiteful.
    Saying that gnosticism makes sense to you (after everything else you've said) makes no sense either.

    Please explain...

  40. Jesus was a criminal why would he have been allowed to have his body washed. I couln't agree more that religion is used to control others, the roman catholic religion is false anyway if any religion is true it is the gnostic christian religion, it makes perfect sense to me. Islam is not even a religion, it will become extinct soon enough though after the muslim holocaust, they think they are going to be the perpertrators in that holocaust but they are all dead and they don't even know it yet, ever single muslim will burn in hell.

  41. @"Jesus in..."

    I don't really get your post so I'll address it as best I can.
    Forgive me then if I take you out of context.

    First off, when you say "I didn't say the bible was the truth", are you implying that you're one of the posters above or is it just a bit of comedic roleplay based on your username.

    I'll restate what I said above above the body being washed. In the time of the historical Jesus figure, the custom was to wash the body before burial/entombment. If performed by someone devoted to this person, wouldn't the job be done meticulously ?
    If the shroud was indeed wrapped around a body, it was MOST definitely wrapped around an unwashed body.

    By the Middle Ages, the custom of washing a body before burial had fallen out of practice. Coincidentally, this is the same era in which the bible was written, but that's another topic...

    If one is in the habit of washing one's dead before committing them to the grave, wouldn't it be a heinous insult and extremely disrespectful to bury an unwashed body?
    If there's one thing that's a constant throughout eons of human development, it's a reverence for the dead.

    Oh, and the bible clearly lays out the burial process...including washing: it's not hard to find.

    As far as the "doc" goes: do you actually mean to suggest that, because it can be neither confirmed nor denied by current technology then it might be true ?
    Google "flying spaghetti monster" and may pasta be upon you.
    How about Bertrand Russell's celestial teapot ?
    Neither can be disproven by current technology, so they might also be true ?

    Will the shroud be proven to be a fake ?
    Maybe, maybe not. An answer borne of doubt without being proven true is no answer at all.

    Regarding women and Islam:
    Yes, Mohammed took a 9 year old bride. Again, it reflects the morality of the day. By definition, morality can't be absolute through human history and across cultures.
    Today, we generally think marriage at 16 is too young, so a guardian's permission must typically be sought. Two hundred years ago, women were married with child(ren) by 16.

    To slam Islam because people use it to justify their innate cruelty is like slamming Christianity because Catholic priests diddle little kids.
    Study the "Stanford Prison Experiment" to see what happens when people are allowed to follow their instincts.

    The Vatican decreed in 1962 that victims of abuse must shut up about it or be excommunicated (Crimen Sollicitationis).

    Religion is simply man's use of faith to manipulate others.
    It's Achilles' Heel is that its fixed dogma doesn't allow it to adapt to changing moral standards.
    I'm sure you could find dozens of references in the Koran about helping those weaker than oneself - would the "weaker" not typically include children ?

  42. @mind control I didn't say the bible was the truth, Jesus body was washed, were u there? there is enough evidence to prove it beyond reasonable doubt, the cloth which came from Spain which was placed over Jesus head before he was wrapped was a perfect match. The whole point of the evidence from that program is that it cannot be explained by science and so it could be genuine, even the priest at the end says that it may not even be real, no one claims it is. I think Aisha is a victim of Islam, women don't get told the whole story about Islam it seems, however I'm not sure if her uncle used to thigh her when she was 2 or 3 and when she was 9 an adult man had sex with her. This is the wonderful prophet Mohammad he is a pedophile pirate from hell and Jesus was resurrected mind control so Islam is false.

  43. Antagonist, I grew up in a Baptist household so I know all about the indoctrination of ignorance. One of my principal problems with any religion is that, to be a believer, you must believe that ANY answer is better than no answer. That makes you more willing to suspend your own disbelief and consider the provided answers to be reasonable to the point of being self-evident.

    With that in mind, the dogmatic piece of fluff you mentioned has holes big enough to drive a truck through. The History Channel is not exactly a beacon of historical accuracy itself and this doc starts out from the position of proving that the shroud is that of Jesus rather than starting from a position of identifying the image contained on the shroud.

    After all that effort, all they did was to recreate a face that, by their own admission, they have no way of confirming. Yet right from the title to the closing credits, they put forward that it's the "face of Jesus".

    The only thing that's mind-blowing about that 'doc' is that anyone would accept it uncritically. Just because they are using the language of science doesn't lend it credibility.

    Nevermind the fact that the shroud can NOT be real to anyone who follows the literal translation of the Bible.
    Jesus' body was washed before being wrapped, as was the custom. Yet here we have a wrap from an unwashed body - which would be expected more from a burial in the Middle Ages than the first century.

    Tell me, what do you think of Stephen Unwin's probability equation ?

    Since you've taken up the mantle and Talos hasn't responded, I'll ask of you:

    HOW was it a decent response to ignorance ?

    I have met followers of many faiths who are perfectly rational except when it comes to matters of faith. We have no way of knowing whether Aisha's comments reflect his outlook on all facets of life or whether it's just where Islam is concerned. Neophytes to any religion often make claims they later learn to be wrong. That's due simply to exuberance and evangelism combined with inexperience and youth, certainly not 'stupidity'.
    That's what I was trying to figure out when Talos busted in and chased him away.

    So I'll ask you: what makes you so sure you have Aisha's entire personality sussed enough to use such inclusive terms as "...minds have not developed..." ?
    It sounds to me as though YOU are the one with issues around religion.

    As I said above, I am firmly in the camp of secular thought. However, I realize the fallacy of attaching an emotional value to my opinion. I don't take someone else's ignorance as an affront that needs to be dealt with so harshly.

    Why do you ?

    Do you think you're going to make him realize that he's wrong and renounce his faith in favour of the logical perspective ?
    If you do then, as Talos said: "...the joke's on you..."

  44. @Mind Control I agree with Talos it was a decent response to stupidity, if aisha said something like can u see electricity it might make a difference (ive heard it said in the mosque) but u can feel that too and see its effects just like air, moslems always come out with these stupid statements and I know why because there minds have not developed much farther than that of a child, in a mosque its quite laughable the questions people ask, how should I pray properly and what kind of picture can I have in my house, because they believe angels wont come in their house if they have pictures up so someone else asks is it ok if it is covered up with a towel, the reply is better not just to be safe, they learn this garbage. If you want to seriously investigate whether there is a possibility that something beyond what we see exists then watch the documentary on the history channel called the real face of jesus when science meets religion, if you are inteligent that will blow your mind.

  45. Whoa there big fella...

    No one's trying to tell you what you can and can't say (that's a knee-jerk response) so I'll say it as plainly as I can:

    I'm curious to know why you would feel the need to rip on someone like that. It's not about how ignorant you thought her post was: I also disagreed with her opinion, yet you feel the need to throw out personal insults and condescension.

    Your tone makes you sound a bit like "that guy": the one who makes a big deal over the faults of others but gets defensive when the criticism is turned onto him.

    So I'll ask again: what was the motivation for your post ?
    Simple pique ?
    Seriously ? That's what you're going with ?
    Aisha's arguments are pretty common. Have you not run across them before ?

  46. Mind Control, I apologize for not running my post by you before submitting it. I hadn't realized that you were elected to the office of Chief Blog Post Shrink or that you were a site moderator. My bad.

    Seriously though, her ignorance was made abundantly clear by her outrageously preposterous assertion that anyone should entertain the idea that the existence of air should be in question in the same way that god is. Does ignorance of this degree get my goat? Most certainly. Does it invalidate my beliefs just because I lost my cool? The joke's on you if you believe that.

    It's my right to ridicule religious belief and all of the ignorant statements and beliefs it engenders. In fact, the video which is central to this whole debate is based on the assertion of the cartoonist's right to the same.

  47. Talos, what are you driving at ?

    What was the point of that post ?

    You are showing yourself to be dogmatic and disrepectful of counter argument. That position diminishes your arguments rather than lending to them any credence.

    You can't expect someone to say "You're right, I was wrong about my entire world view" after reading a rant. Secularism is something that people have to come to on their own - our role as the skeptics is to plant seeds that people can mull over when they start thinking about this stuff more critically.

    To simply rip on someone doesn't advance the argument in any way.

    Which begs the question again: what motivated your post ?
    Your tone suggests that you feel yourself intellectually superior to Aisha....yet the logic underlying your own post is fatally flawed.
    The vitriolic tone of your insults suggests defensiveness: are your arguments not strong enough to stand on their own so you have to back them up with such a browbeating, bullying delivery ?
    Let your logic do the talking, that's the best way to convince people of something.

    I was trying to figure out WHY he thought the way he did, whether it was indoctrination or whether he came to his opinion later in life.

    Instead of pursuing the headlong rush to have our own opinions heard, perhaps we should take the time to enjoy the argument on its own merits, no ?
    A conversation is about more than waiting for one's own turn to speak.

    Unfortunately, my enthusiastic friend, your own introspection on the subject may not be a match for the fervor of your militance.
    If I may be so presumptuous, I would suggest checking out the Dhammapada for an interesting read. It's spiritual without being overly dogmatic - it walks a line between a proposed morality and the religious use of fear to force people to believe against their better judgment until the indoctrination does its work. Yet it does so within the canon of "religious works".
    To my mind, that's how we need to spread of the "secular gospel".

    Aisha - your attempt to keep the conversation focussed to such a narrow line is a bit of a cheap tactic, that's why I haven't responded to it. Whenever you get the opportunity, I would appreciate hearing well-reasoned arguments, be they right or wrong in my own humble opinion.

    Take your time, but please do us the courtesy of putting as much effort into your argument as you can. We've all come here to kick around the oldest argument known to man, the one that will likely never end in a universal resolution one way or the other.

    Having been around the block on this debate for many years (it's one of my favorites - long live the 'net !!), it's not interesting to me to tell you why I think you're wrong. I would much rather try and figure out WHY you believe something that's so incomprehensibly wrong to me.

    I don't possess the faculty to take things 'on faith' and give them more weight than things one can empirically prove to be true. I would like to figure out what allows others can do that.
    To do that, I need your help. I believe that you believe - I want to explore that.

  48. Aisha Khattak, I wish I could just make my statement "You are a f@#$%^& r@#$%^" and leave it at that, but your assertion that air and god are mutually revealing concepts is so misguided in its ignorance that I can hardly decide how to respond to your mindless drivel and yet I feel compelled to.

    Air is a substance that is both visually and quantifiably measurable. You're right that air can't be seen with the naked human eye, but with proper magnification, it most assuredly is visible at the molecular level.

    God, is a concept that in neither visually nor quantifiably measurable in any way. You are wrong in your belief that a comparison of air and god, due to their similarities in colour (lol), has any validity whatsoever.

    The type of baseless, unintelligent, naive, and delusion-inspired b@##$%^& that you spewed in your comment is the same type of s@#$ makes smart people roll their eyes and comfortingly pat the heads of the slow kids before sending them off to eat glue and chew crayons in the corner while the rest of us focus our minds on something worth our attention.

    Still not convinced that air exists? Here, I'll help you by showing you a little experiment that can prove it to you. Fill your tub with water and submerse your head in it, then try breathing. Doesn't work hey? Now do the same thing, only this time, wear a snorkel. Well now isn't that something!? Curiously, you can breathe in the second scenario! Good job Aisha! You've just proven that something exists outside of water that your body needs in order to live. We call this measurable substance air and it is good.

    Now do your brethren a favour and stop posting your comments here. You're just making the whole lot of you look even more ignorant and unintelligent.

  49. aoa( may peace be on to u)!!

    ill inshAllah(if Allah wills) answer ur complete mail later...right now i just want to knw one thing mainly....
    if u are so sure tht there xists no GOD....wt prove do u have tht there is no God??....with wt surety u cn say tht...its like.....u knw u breathe n air goes in n out of ur lungs....u cannot see it u cannot feel it u cannot cath it ...u still have faith tht this is air going in n out of my lungs....can u prove tht air really xists....can u see it are u so sure tht its THE AIR going in n out of r body...?? i just need an answer to this one at the moment ...will reply the rest of it later inshAllah(if Allah wills)
    tc n feamanAllah!!

  50. At no point did I say that religion is the root of conflict. While it certainly has been used to justify conflict in the past, saying that religious belief has started all (or most) is a fallacious argument. We need only look at the World Wars, Korea, or Europe's long history of war that predates modern religions.
    One point where you're mistaken is on the slavery issue in the US - it WAS religiously justified. Thee KKK themselves support their position with scripture, as do many of the neo-Nazi militia groups in the US (which is actually funny in a tragic way). Never mind the primary justification for bombing abortion clinics and killing the staff therein.

    Even within your own faith, what about the Sunni/Shia rift that has proven so violent in the recent past ?
    Why would one human being cause harm to another based on a BELIEF rather than a FACT ?
    It's exactly the same mechanism that Bush's handlers used when they used WMDs to justify the Iraq invasion. If you put lipstick on a lie, it becomes credible. If someone has a vested interest in the lie being true (say, eternal bliss), they are more likely to swallow it and suppress their own reservations.

    Again, my position is this: those who pursue their faith most vigorously are at risk of being coerced into behaviour that reflects the will of others, regardless of what the individual knows to be right or wrong. Someone WITHOUT such loyalties is free to approach every new situation based on its own merits rather than how it fits in with a worldview described by someone else.
    Female circumcision, subjugation of women....they wouldn't be as widespread as they are without the banner of faith for small men to cower under.

    "i have given my will to my lord my god "
    And you don't see a problem there ?
    How do you KNOW that you're right ?
    What would it take to prove that he doesn't exist and never did ?
    THAT is what I mean by religious belief giving you an unwavering stance. Don't get me wrong, in a complete vacuum of responsible morality, religion may serve as a guide until one is old enough to develop one's own morality.
    As a model for behavioural interaction between adults, it's just not up to the task.

    As to the issue at hand...let's talk a bit about these cartoons.

    First off there are two issues - the actual creation of them, and the publication of them.
    As for the artist: you are damn well right he has every right in the world to draw them, regardless of who agrees with them and whether or not it's in good taste. At one point, saying the Earth rotated around the Sun was heresy yet it was proven to be right. Personally, I am happy to live in a world where I can say what I wish to whomever I wish. THAT is what freedom and liberty are all about (I mean that in a very literal rather than a rhetorical way)

    Secondly, regarding the publication of the cartoons, let me ask you a question:
    Do you think it's appropriate for Jesus to be shown as a character on SouthPark ?
    Why or why not ?
    Why aren't Christians rioting over it....every week it's shown on tv ?
    Why do you feel the example isn't relevant ?
    Check out "Jesus" and "South Park" on youTube if you're not familiar with the reference.

    The cartoons aren't literally true, no one thinks they are.
    Much of comedy is making fun of someone or something - stand up comedy is built on it. Pick up a copy of Voltaire's "Candide" to see it done very, very well.

    Why do you feel that it was following Islam that allowed you to be humble and non-aggressive in your tone ?
    Is that not something you could have achieved through introspection and conscious action ?

    Rabbis standing up in favour of Palestinian Muslims ?
    But how many DON'T ????
    Responding to brick throwing with gunship attacks ?
    Look at how Ahmed Yassin was assassinated...
    No, the Jews ought to be rioting against that sh*t, just as the Catholic community should be rioting against the widespread rape of children by priests.
    THAT, my friend is humanism squashed by faith and it's exactly what I'm talking about - excusing what you know to be wrong because it doesn't fit with what you've been promised by your faith. The trouble is, you'll never know that those promises were just keep you compliant.

    As to your question about my "first human reaction", see the South Park thing above. As to your specific example of a member of my family being portrayed - a couple points.
    First off, to the majority of those who read the cartoons, the subject is a fictional character, not an actual person.
    As I stated above, my first reaction would be to glean the motivation for drawing it - look for the humour, whether I agree personally or not is utterly irrelevant. Then again, I don't live on vengeance - it's what has crippled our judicial system and doesn't help mankind in any way. We need to rise above our baser instincts.

  51. Assalam-o-Alaikum!!
    may peace n blessings of Allah be on to !!!

    brother/sister? mind control...with all due respect ...i totally disagree with u in alot of things u said....

    1st of all i wud like to ask u ..why do u belive so strongly tht all the fuss n wars n conflicts that have taken place in world are only because of religion...there are more thn a zillion conflicts n wars tht can be listed by name which have completly nothing to do with religion...the only reason of such conflicts were either gaining of power or some political gains or gaining of mineral resources....which have nutin to do with religion n politics are poles apart.....whom wud u blame them for ?
    i agree tht alot of conflicts have taken place on religious basis but similarly an equal amount of secular riots n conflicts are present ...correct me if i am wrong....were blacks in USA were taken as slaves n were not given thre basic human rights was on the basis of religion or was completly a rascism..???..n lemme tell u rascism does not a anyyyyyy space in religion....the bilderberg group n all the elites of globalism or capitalism ....who can create chaos in any part of the world whenever they will....are they doing it on the basis of religion or for gaining control over world's economy?.....i might be lacking some knwledge here...n im always open to be not here to prove u wrong....but i am just trying to clearify u the fact tht even if religion is taken out of the lives of wont be at rest at all...the urge to gain power or wealth wud still be thre..the animal instincts of human nature will not vanish ....infact i can bet u on tht this world wud be in much much worst condition thn present....!!!
    As u said tht i have a position in argument tht cannot allow me to give any ground or change its viewpoint jus bcz i have given my will to something much i wud ask u my brother/ sister....are u allowing it ??? are u ready to accept that the priciples on which u are leading ur life can be mended?? or are u ready to accept the fact tht there is much much more beyond ur knwledge which maybe ur eyes cannot see....?? are u ready to accept tht the reason behind all chaos in this world is not mainly cz of religion, thre a million other reasons of which the main cause is secular mind not the religious one???

    you said tht its an old apologetic argument tht extremism and backwardness is a fault of human let me tell u tht its not at all an apolgetic one my brother/sister...its the fact...a fact tht a secular mind can never in order to fly it away like a mosquito one wud come up with such a put his or her mind at ease...

    someone who calls u immoral even after u have nuthing immoral in u n the fact lacking is religion....i mus say tht person must be insane ....the only difference tht lies in it is tht u r not religious...morality has nuthin to do with religion...only a good moral person can be a good religious thre are so many pple who have no moral values but still claim to be religious....!!! so they are 2 totally different aspects...!!! u shudnt blame religions for tht...i am not sure about other religions but i am sure about mine...tht such an attitude is not acceptable....infact a muslim is not even allowed to judge about the faith of other just by mere appearance...wtever im sharin with u is on the basis of my religion that is islam not neother...!!!

    you said tht the fact tht i am willig to give my will to some regime tht cn require me to act in a way i dont wont to believe in is totally a wrong perception of urs(pardon me for tht)) i havnt given away my will to some human or some idol etc...i have given my will to my lord my god ALLAH SUBHANALLAHUTAALA....who all muslims believe to be the creator of all beings ( about which im sure u dnt belive inn) ...still i wud like tht u show respect towards it since i am doin the same...we are here not to insult each other..but to solve the problems....!!!

    i wud like to share my personel expericne of life here...tht i had been a complete secular person all my past life of 23 years.... free to move around to do wtevr i want to not realising the fact whther its moral or immoral...n not caring wt my Allah wants me to do .....ignoring the fact tht there is sumthin beyond the kind of life i had ben me my brother/sister the moment i started reading about wt my Allah says n orders us to ..n how a life of a muslim shud be like....n i actually started actin upon it ...resulted in total opposite to wt i had beeen assuming about my scripture....u wud have not seeen ths humble non aggressive person which u are dealin with right now ....n tht is all a result of following the teachings of my religion....n its not tht i cry or i feel oppressed while doin so....i knw tht might sound funny to u since u not at all believe in someone like God( well its ur view point , it surely be havin some reasons behind it )....mayb u have this view about pple of faith cz u might hv never met someone who is an educated sensible muslim , christian or a jew....i have seen so many Rabbis standin up for palestinian muslims...u tell me my brother/sister...had religion been such a an evil thing thn why wud a jew rabbi wud stand in favor of palestinian u still see hatred n conflict in it ...or do u get the message of love in it ??

    you said freedom of speech is not restricted to an individuals likes or dislikes...u can say wtevr u feel like about netin n everything.....ok ....even if i agree with u for a moment....n also u are of the opinion tht if tht person who made sketches about our beloved Prophet MUHAMMAD (PEACE BE UPON HIM) whom we muslims not worship at all lemme remind u of tht...we just take him as a beloved prophet of our lord Allah(GOd) n we worhsip our Allah according to the book tht ws sent upon our PROPHET(PBUH)...we do not in ne way worship PROPHETS cz they are humans who are not worthy of being worshipped...we are supposed to follow thre teachings but not worship them or take them as Lord Almighty..likewise u follow a teacher but donot take him as GOd....neways wt i ws sayin is tht u thk tht this person had right to say wtevr he cn about such a beloved personality for a particular faith.....u tell me honestly...n u hv to be really honest while answerin this question of mine....if i or someone else drew pictures of somone in a very inappropriate way or make rude remarks or say abusive remarks about tht someone who is beloved to u whther it be ur mother father sister wife husband brother kids(whoever dearest to u).....wt wud be ur first reaction towards tht person who has done tht.....seriously tell me....wud u just sit silently to pretend tht u are a peaceful person n not do netin even if tht person comes in front of u or ull show some other reaction????? seriously thk over it n answer me regardless of any religious or secular point of view....what wud ur very 1st human reaction...????

    n yea not hurting neone is a part of politics....tht is the strangest view point i have ever heard about politics...yea it come in the defination of ethics....but politics? no wayyyyy....:) ....!

    neways.....(i wud again apologise if ne of my remarks offendid u) till tc tc n stay blessed..

    thankyou n feamanAllah!!!

  52. aisha, regarding "by blaming muslims being xtremists", I think most people have no problemns differentiating between radical and moderate Islam, just like moderate and fundamentalist Christianity.

    All people 'of faith' have an inherent weakness that can allow them to do things they know to be wrong. Once you give your life over to a higher power, your own moral arguments can become secondary to the scripture of your religion.

    All human conflict is marked by the conviction that each side believes unwaveringly that they're right. Both Hitler and Churchill both believed they were doing the right thing, so did the priests of the Inquisition, the Salem witch-hunters, the KKK and George W Bush.

    Add to that the scriptures of religion all claim to be "The One Truth" and you have a position in the argument that CANNOT give any ground or change its viewpoint because it's locked into archaic literature. Look at what's going on in the Catholic Church right now with respect to the Vatican's view on condoms and their role in preventing AIDS in Africa.

    The secular argument is NOT so conclusive and, by definition, lends itself to revision as we learn more. Personally, that demonstrates a morality geared much more to the greater good of man, don't you think ?

    I deliver charity food hampers to the poor at Xmas, not because my Bible tells me "charity begins at home" or because of some obscure reference to giving alms, but because I think it's the right thing to do. I try and make all my decisions based on my own morality, developed after years of seeing the world for what it is and what I want it to be, not as it's portrayed by characters in a fictional novel.

    While religion is not (obviously) the only spark in human conflict, it is a major one and is an unnecessary one. It is only because of people's root fear of chaos that religion persists. As long as people are willing to believe that our existence is something that that they know isn't true, religion isn't going anywhere. We are not special, if we are unique, it's by coincidence....not design.

    As long as we seek to insulate ourselves from our own existence, actions like those depicted in this film will never be history.

    "so its not the religion which teaches us to be backwards or xtremists…..its the fault of a huma’s mind how he or she percieves it" [sic]

    This apologetic argument is as old as religion itself and is what allows the religious scourge to persist. If I can say that I follow the same literal guidelines as someone else, yet they are able to justify immorality with those guidelines, then the problem lies with them and not with the beliefs themselves.....and (by extension) not with me.

    The fact that you (yes YOU, aisha) are willing to give your life over to a regime that can require you to act in a way you don't believe is the root problem in all religions.

    The fact that religions are led by people means that eventually, you WILL be called upon to decide whether or not you will obey and immoral directive. I sincerely hope that the humanism you show in the end of your post is the what wins the day, not your religious beliefs.

    "freedom of speech means to be able to express ur point of view in a manner that not a single person gets hurt"

    Freedom of speech has NOTHING to do with others getting hurt. Freedom of speech means saying whatyever the hell I want and damn the consequences. Not hurting anyone else while doing so is called 'ethics' or 'politics'.

    If I have offended you (or anyone else)....that's probably a good thing: think about WHY you are offended. All religions are wrong and have been created solely to ease people's fears and insecurities in exchange for obeisance.

    Trouble is, the 'comfort' offered is a sham. The ONLY measure of a man is by the number of regrets he carries to his deathbed, not how closely he followed a recipe....

  53. Assalam-o-Alaikum wa rahmatullah hi wa barakatuhu!!

    i might not be as literate as many of my brothers n sisters here are....but still after observing and analysing all wt is being discussed here i wud like to share my thoughts with every1 here...first i wud like to say tht i totally disagree with the fact tht religion is the problem of all the ciaos we see in every religious person around us....the problem lis not in religion but its the perception with which we look towards religion....if so n so hs done so many religious studies or say comparitive studies of religions doesnt give him or her an authority to thk tht ONLY tht understangin is right which he or she might hv percived fm his or her journey of life.....there is 99% of possibilty tht wtever u percived through tht study might be a result of a perception with which u wanted it to look upon it....not everyone is made perfect in life ....not every1 has knwledge of everything n anything in life....there lys a possibility tht even after tons n tons of analysis on the scriptures u are misssing the main idea of instead of blaming the scriptures and people frm faiths....we shud 1st switch on our analysis of our ownselves....b4 claiming to be the perfect knower of everytin n tht no other stands above ur understanind is in itself a very absurd pshcy ...i see pple from all faiths here ....abusing and insulting each others faith wihtout even knwoing wt they are talking not blame scriptures for us beiing selfish , rude, less tolerant and acting like animals.....b4 trying to prove neone or ne religion wrong whether u belive in it or not....u shud give a few seconds analysis to ur ownselves...pple who are fighting here to prove tht blah blah religion or faith is the cause of nuisance look at urselves what u guys are doing here...u are condradicting ur one hand u say tht fighting and getting offendid n retaliting against sumthin u dnt like is wrong....on the other hand each n every person on this page is doing the same......nobody is listenning to nebody....we are so much absorbed in proving ourselves right tht we are not even givin hoots to wt other person is tryin to say...hahha....isnt it blaming muslims being xtremists or jews n christians etc. we are contradcitin the very soul of ths religion teaches u to fight or kill each is ur lack of understanding of a certain scripturre.....freedom of speech does not mean tht neone cn hurt neone by his or her acts......freedom of speech shud not ignore a greater aspect tht is called matter how many philosophical or scientific reasons u give for it....freedom of speech means to be able to express ur point of view in a manner tht not a single person gets hurt.....if u hv some issues with a certain religion etc...the most decent way to express wud be a decent platform of bring all pple of faiths on a platform n try to sort out ur issues in the most human way....instead of acting like animals and making fun of each others faiths or ideas shud learn to luv the human even if he disagrees with his or her ideas....but by going beyond n start making fun of each others faith in he most disgracefull manner no way comes under the category of freedom of speech.....i am a proud muslim Alhamdulillah...n i try to follow n read my holy book QURAN at its best....but does tht allow me to look down upon others?...ofcourse not.....i dnt disrespect ne other religion or ne other person who is havin a slight different opinion from mine...yeah wud luv to discuss if he or she wants to ...but i wont force netin on him or her.... infact i hv analysed tht our scriptures infact give us the best xamples of freedom of speech in compared to pple who are claiming modernity n secularism to present us with the gift of freedom of speech......all revolves around how u percieve its not the religion which teaches us to be backwards or xtremists.....its the fault of a huma's mind how he or she percieves it.....i thk instead of playing blame games on the name of freedom of speech .n disrespecting each other morals n values...we shud work more on correcting ourselves 1st....whther u are n athiest or a jew or a pagan or muslim.....humanity comes 1st ....whther u r a does not give u a right to hurt others feelings.....learn to love n respect n try to have patience towards each other n ull see tht u wont be needin ne freedom of speech like terminologies in order to convey ur point to others.....stop blamin each other n try to buld patience n love n tolerance within ur own selves b4 coming up with all logical points to prove whther so n so is wrong or an xtreamksts or wtevrrr.....!!!! we are humans not try to overcome ur animal within 1st ...thn claim to be someone who have right to speak about others....dnt rely only on ur own analysis n perceptions...learn to learn frm others aswell


    if i hv offendid ne1 in neway here ...i apoligse fr it!!

  54. Boo-yah, John.

    Immolation and disfigurement of women on the one hand

    On the other.....Catholics priests raping little boys for years with silent approval.

    Either way, it's all about inflaming people's own fears in order to to keep them paralyzed to the point of inaction.

    They're all equal and worthy of equal scorn for abandoning the good sense god gave 'em. :^)

  55. Why would any religion, claiming to be the one true religion, KILL in the name of that religion? Killing is wrong period, no matter what! I'm sure the one true God or Allah, or Whom/What-ever, does not want blood on his/her/it's hands, and in their/it's name. What are we doing? A long time ago stories were written, some made up, some embelished, some science fiction (L. Ron Hubbard), some mysteriously found in a hole in the ground (Joseph Smith), whatever the case may be. The truth is ....for lack of evidence, 'made up' .... to keep order in a time of immorality.

    There is no substantial evidence that any one creator exsists., and as far as prophet's go, that's all they are, profess-ing to be from god. No one is right, and the killings goes on and on. If you hate western ideas, ignore them, stay away from them. If you hate the way Islam treats it's women, too bad, it's not your concern. I'm no expert on this subject, but there is common sense that tells one, violence in the name of a religion, is a contradiction in and of itself. Every religion is guilty of this, and if there is a god, I wish he/she/it would speak up, or show up, and set things right. He supposedly did it once or twice before, why not now? does he want us to kill eachother? it would seem today immorality is far worse than in Noah's time, let's have another flood, only make it 80 days. Fiction people... nothing but fireside chats to keep the feeble minds in line.

    Until then, I'll keep learning about the UNIVERSE, the other galaxy's, the billions of suns or stars, terrestrial planets that may contain water. That is our future.

  56. They are so wound up they are killing each...great peaceful religion.

  57. The funniest thing is that if the extremists wouldn't have protested nobody would have given a s@#$ about the cartoons.

  58. For Muslims, no matter how much you help others, how kind, peaceful and lovely you are, no matter how wise and humanistic- IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH you will burn in hell FOREVER.

    It is a duty to Muslims to fight pagans just because they have a different way of life.

    When I read the Koran, I really feel offended by their disrespect, for I am a pagan, I worship nature, the Great Spirit... to Muslims this is something very evil, a crime.

    So why the f... shall I censor myself to those whose teachings are c@#$ and against me?

    They can step upon anything that is not part of them and if you offend em, they have the right to rip your head off?

  59. Muslim = Violence. Period.

  60. I wish we all could come to a realization that gods do not exist and start to discover universe, instead of burning flags and bodies (((

  61. Serhend,

    FWIW, I didn't find the cartoons particularly amusing. They did present a stereotypical image, but that's an everyday part of comedy. Even though I didn't laugh at them, I fully defend the artist's right to draw them and the paper's right to publish them.

    It's not about hate because most rational people in the world today KNOW that Muslim extremists are in the minority.
    It's not as though ANYONE is suggesting it depicts most Muslims in that light - rather it's pointing out the folly of taking ANYTHING to that extreme.

    The response was entirely out of proportion and, to an outside observer, proving that the cartoons were accurate is actually pretty funny.

    Until we stop looking for offense, we'll continue to find it and it will hamper our relations with one another.
    Unfortunately, religion preys on the xenophobia that's inherent in man and is one of our greatest anthropological weaknesses.

    To bad it's only the secular who can see that, but that enlightenment is what makes us walk away from religion in the first place.

  62. This doc reeks of cynicism and arrogance. I'm not offended by the Muhummad Cartoons, but more of the double standard it creates and the purportration of a midieval stereotype. The moment someone draws a black person with pitch black skin and huge red lips, they get socially burned in the US for example. but when muslims are involved they[muslims protesting] are admonished for being "insensitive" and against freedom of speech.
    This western association that muslims are socially backwards, mysogynist, suicide bombers is an echo of the mandingo black man, the wandering jew, or the yellow terror.
    Go ahead and poke fun at my religion but for what we really are and not what you think we are.


  64. Religion is the death of the human spirit. It boggles the mind and corrupts the soul. It creates more boarders and separation of people.

  65. If it'sonly a very small percentage of muslims who participate in these riots and believe in these killings and are tarnishing the name of Islam than why don't the rest of the muslims protest against them?

  66. And the irony...this debate shows the extremist elemant of the side that makes cartoons of the prophet and defends it just as equal. ...and still they say Islam is the violent religion. What a case of rampant hypocrisy. A classic case of i'm right, you're wrong becaaaaaausse...freedom of what I want to do but no freedom for you in what you want to do because that's what my philsophical forefathers said so. A laughable proposition. Freedom of speech and others like them are hallow, completely hallow if they do not engender some improvement of human society. I have to say, making fun of a guiding force and source of reverence for 1.5 billion people is something that really doesnt improve society very much. Now please, you may continue with your task of trying to "construct" an argument that somehow it needs to be done because bla bla reasons. Its all hollow, and by trying to prove so such detractors do come out as fundamentalists and extremists in their own right.

  67. You learn quite a few things from such debates.

    One, there are extemist atheists...dare I venture to say....fundementalist athiests in the world. Their aura of a higher intellectual understanding and of having so called "seen the truth" is nothing different nor novel in the space of history.

    There are people in the world who want to make themselves believe to their utmost that they know about this case somehow construct the fact that it enjoins certain things. A little word of advice to a person who was talking up there of having majored in religious studies and toured the middle east, I have to say, having studied texts in religous studies and comparative religion and being a Muslim, you have a long long way to go kid before you can even begin to understand Islam like that. At a certain level i dont even blame you, you dont even have the slightest idea about the faith to know what you're looking for. Conversations with random people you meet count for naught. If that is what your argument is based on, you really need to re-visit it. I am a fervent muslim as well, I read the Quran and do all that it enjoins. I still dont kill any non muslims or force my beleifs upon them. Now you have to askl, am I the contradiction or are you? Am I who spent my whole life studying and aiming to follow my religion and have gone over it countless hours, the contradiction or are you with a handful of university courses and a middle east tour and some chit chat?

  68. @gunnar Reiersen

    by retaliate i mean peaceful retaliations never violence. Notice that i say or freedom of "speech"

    and about the holocaust i meant everybody is bichin at muslims for what Al Qaeda and the terrorists are doing but what christian nazis were also "christians" and christian people are considered peaceful people. Not fair huh?
    In short not every Muslim is a terrorists

  69. @freedom

    "If it’s your freedom of speech to make those cartoons then it’s OUR freedom of speech to retaliate if we find it offensive."

    Freedom of speech DOES NOT include the right to resort to physical violence and murder against those who say things you find offensive or with which you do not agree.

  70. @freedom said:

    "the christians killed 6 millions jews in world war II THE BIGGEST ACT OF TERRORISM IN HUMAN HISTORY purely on the basis of religion."

    Undeniably true, but no act of terrorism justifies other acts of terrorism or terrorism in general.

  71. the christians killed 6 millions jews in world war II THE BIGGEST ACT OF TERRORISM IN HUMAN HISTORY purely on the basis of religion.

  72. Let's talk about freedom of speech.

    If it's your freedom of speech to make those cartoons then it's OUR freedom of speech to retaliate if we find it offensive.

    And as for the terrorists they will go to hell. Rule number 1 for "Jihad" women and children don't die and second it's always defensive.

  73. As for Afghanistan, however deplorable the continued presence of of coalition forces there may be, the Afghan people (especially women) would be far worse off if the Taliban regained control.

  74. @UrDady

    Yes, I recognize that greedy, selfish and stupidly arrogant Western nations have been largely responsible for creating or at least exacerbating the deplorable conditions and inequities that are the cause of so much poverty, frustration and anger in the Middle East, but the fact still remains that there are all too many self-righteous, power-mad and fanatical religious and political leaders on both sides of the conflict who are gleefully exploiting and even, in some cases, augmenting all this anger and frustration for their own selfish benefit.

  75. A world full of people who would kill me over a drawing is not a world that deserves my presence. Shame.

  76. Lets examine how these terrorists come in to being, I think any person with some common sense should be able to grasp this idea:

    -Western world is responsible for dividing the Palestinian lands, it (The west) keeps the Muslim world under prolonged occupations (Iraq, Afghanistan) and Kashmir by India.

    Muslims have all the reasons in the world to Love the western world (lets say religion is just an excuse to keep the Love going) :D

  77. Why is it that the three "Abrahamic" religions, Namely Judaism, Christianity and Islam, all have a history of the most brutal and murderous intolerance of others whose beliefs differ from their own?

    The Old Testament documents and endorses numerous examples of atrocities committed by Israelites and Jews as bad or worse than anything done by the Nazis in WWII. Christian intolerance and atrocities against Jews, Muslims, and even fellow Christians during the Middle Ages and the Spanish and Italian Inquisitions were no better. To an extent, Islamic atrocities towards Christians were retaliation for what Christians did to them during the Crusades, but that did not make them any more admirable.

    In the Middle East today, particularly in Palestine, there are villains and terrorists on both sides of the conflict, both sides equally convinced they are only doing God's will by terrorizing and killing those of the other side and denying each other the right to practice their own respective religions in peace. Militant terrorists on both sides viciously and violently opposed the idea of establishing a secular, Palestinian state that guaranteed religious freedom and equality under the law for all religions. The only beneficiaries of this fervent religious intolerance are the wealthy religious leaders of both sides trying to preserve their immense wealth and politcal power and influence, and the immoral arms dealers who sell arms to both sides and keep the pot stirred up to insure continuation of their obscene profits. None of these really care a whit about the suffering of the rank and file believers whom they have duped into accepting the hateful, religious nonsense they vomit from their mouths that inspires continuation of the conflict responsible for all the suffering.

  78. Reasonable people have absolutely no valid cause to show tolerance for such an absurd thing as religious belief of any kind, Ezgi. The fact that reasonable people have tolerated ignorance for so long is the only reason we're still in this unstable situation in 2010 my friend.

    Primitive beliefs should have been left in primitive times, yet too many people are cowards and can't stand to face the fact that we're alone with no invisible man in the sky to protect and guide us.

  79. it all comes down to tolerance... In islam any thing that might be worshiped as an idol is forbidden. This includes sculptures, paintings, fotos etc. There is no representation of Muhammed in Sunni belief, even the movies about him lack an actor playing mohammed because it is forbidden... It is different Sunni and Shia sects but since i'm not well informed on the other- that is the Shia sect- i'm inclined to emphasize the fact that it is forbidden. And to ridicule the prophet that every muslim looks up to is offensive in every possible way. I might not be a Muslim, but i know the religion since i grew up with the culture and talking badly about Mohammed is a greater taboo than talking badly about Allah. This, i know by experience.
    The point that i wanted to make is that at the beginning of the documentary, it says: it was a chance to respond to the provocation by terrorists. So it overlooks the fact that not every muslim is a terrorist or even a supporter of terror, and in order to respond to the terrorists he attacks the religion of many devoted believers. The reaction is what they aimed for i guess, considering that they knew the "terrorists" would be pissed off.
    I think the problem with west and east lies in the fact that both sides have prejudices against each other. There is stereotyping against both parties. Fundamentalist islam condemns the "infidels" by saying their values are corrupted and their practices are sinful. They fear their descendants will be corrupted by the west, and the problem is even bigger since globalization allows many muslims to have access to western culture. West sees muslims as savages that try to took over the world and make them all muslims in the name of allah through Jihad. This seems like an exaggeration but if you look at the media, you come across many conspiracy theories that offer this exaggeration. Now, is there any truth to that... Sure, the concept of Jihad is about fighting with the infidel, but it is more like a legitimation to fight wars and an incentive for soldiers to join in wars. If jihad is about spreading the word of Quran and Allah, since this is their ideology, is it really different from legitimizing war with the concept of "spreading democracy". Or to create an incentive to join to wars, isn't patriotism or nationalism just the same thing?
    Like i said before, it all comes to tolerance. If you want your values to be tolerated by the Muslims, you need to tolerate theirs. Islam today is not about a man who lived 1500 years ago, the extremism of Muslims and their hatred against the west is not about Mohammed. It's about grievances, inequality among civilizations, history of colonialism and mandates, or maybe it's about clash of civilizations. But surely it has nothing to do with an illiterate nomad, that happened to convince some people in his lifetime that he is the messenger of god. If you want to ridicule him, go ahead but you're missing the point to all this mess.

  80. Cody, do those who publish it have any less right to do so than the right that Muslims have to pursue their religion ?

    Granted, I probably wouldn't have printed them had it been my call to make, but the response to their publication was completely uncalled for and shows that those who took part are the intolerant ones.

    One of the drawbacks to free society is that some of the things we must permit are things we might not agree with personally. To respond with violence and destruction is just petty thuggery.

  81. it is such a horrible thing. why would they use his picture. they know how offensive it is. Its just stupid. Its completely intolerant. Most people in the west are completely poisoned by their Media. If they were only educated about Islam, things like this would not happen.

  82. For all of you out there trying to force your fantasies on other human beings through the use of made-up fairy tales...

    Stop it. You're embarrassing your species. When will you grow up and quit acting like children? Must we wipe thousands of you from the face of the earth again, to keep you from your psychotic aims? This keeps happening down through history...and the only thing Muslims ever accomplish is being killed.

    Muslim is a belief system that attracts the weak and ignorant, who can't or won't think for themselves. It then thinks FOR them...convicing them that death in its service is a noble thing.

    Life is precious. Giving it away in the service of something as shallow and hateful as Islam requires a low intellect. This is why they behave as mad dogs, can not defend the koran or the hadith except by quoting from the same book.

    Mohammed was, by all modern standards, insane. he was a murderous, manipulative pedophile with a God complex.

    Personally...if I'm going to follow/worship/emulate etc...any man, I expect him to be a BETTER man than me. You example of an intelligent, wise, considerate and principaled life. A life with a belief in something besides its own superiority.

    Muslims really do face death from either choice...trying to force it upon others, and defending yourself as you are attacked by your intended 'conquest'. Either way, it never ends well for the followers of Mohammed. You know, there is a reason why they live in the desert...they have been driven there by civilized men with no tolerance for Islamic barbarism. Of course, your average follower will exclaim, "NO...of course not! We CHOOSE to live in caves and hillsides and some of the most desolate places on earth".


  83. Hehe...Ali, you don't there's actually freedom of speech in the US do you ?

    Look at the issue you mentioned specifically - she has EVERY right to say what she did: it's an opinion on policy and contains nothing that could be called "hate speech"; racial, religious or otherwise.

    However, it conflicts with US policy re: Israel and her neighbours and it's embarrassing to the government to have someone of her stature and experience say so.

  84. Hello champions of freedom of speech checkout the links before point you're fingers towards Muslims

    "Helen Thomas retires after remarks on Israel"

    this is recent one I don't want to list all the names of journalists who were fired during war in Iraq .

  85. Hey all you Cro-magnum peoples out there. As the last surviving member of the Homo neanderthalis species, I resent your using our name to depict a brutal, unthinking act by people acting in a violent, foolish way. Look into the mirror and see who the real trogs are; Homo sapiens, all of you, just about, except for Jesus, St. Francis, Mother Teresa and maybe Buddha. So stop with the stereo-tying already! Our cranial capacity was, in fact, larger than all Homo sapiens. And we took care of each other when sick or hungry, buried our dead with a thought towards the afterlife and decorated ourselves with paints and shelled jewelry. Yes, we had a very artistic, peaceful civilization, until you all came north and exterminated us; Yes, you heard right; genocide. We lived contentedly for a quarter of a million years in balance with nature and all G-d's creatures, until you all arrived. Then what happened to us? Gone, except for me and I don't know how much longer I can last, what with all the global weather change, destruction of the ozone layer and animal extinctions. And you thought that the end of the Ice Age changed the landscape! Well, guess we just failed to employ enough Border Patrol agents to control illegal aliens coming into Europe and other points north. I seems to me that Homo sapiens are about to do to each other what you did to my people thousands of years ago, whether using religion or ideology to justify being mean to each other. May G-d help you see the light. Shalom.

  86. Ashish, that's a bit of a silly comment.
    "Terrorist" is a term of convenience, and can be applied to just about anyone fighting over an ideology or theology.

    Anyone like....say....Ted Kaczynski, Timothy McVeigh, Inderjit Singh Reyat, and Eric Rudolph ?

    If you want to talk about groups, we have the IRA, the Tamil Tigers, the FLQ, FARC, the ANC, the ISYF...

    Personally I'd go so far as to throw the Catholic Church in there as well, but I'm torn between whether their reign of terror is a terrorism or a human rights issue.

    If we rewind the clock and look at history through today's definitions, the US was founded by "terrorists".

    Do you see why the word is meaningless and doesn't belong in a rational conversation ?

  87. Not all Muslims are terrorists. But all terrorists are muslim.

  88. Don't make fun of religion.... it does it itself.

  89. I'm sorry but if you want to kill someone because they say, write or draw something, you should build a time machine and live 800 years ago. Evolve. I understand though because if someone drew Tupac, I'd be pissed (sarcasm).

  90. @Syly1212
    Typically I find that satirical attacks upon other religions' "Gods" are usually more pointed towards the adherents, who as a rule take themselves far too seriously and consequently makes them (you) excellent comedy targets. I can't speak to whether "Non-Muslims" do most of the stone throwing or not, but I'm guessing you're Muslim so I'd suspect your observation is made via that prism. As for Christian Outrage, I'd cite the example of Scorcese's film "Last Temptation of Christ" which was the object of many a public protest by Catholic groups and others. And consider that the film did not ridicule Christ at all, but simply portrayed him with human failings.
    Maybe if the Christian outcry had been accompanied by fatwas advocating Scorcese's assassination it would have been more memorable?
    Finally, why do you care?

  91. Hashim Khan: "never have muslims started a war, never." HAHAHAHAHAHA
    Is your brain on?
    They've started pretty much every war they've been in. They escalate the violence at every opportunity. There is something WRONG with your religion, buddy. Just drop it from your identity - you're probably a good person deep down. Leave your ancient myths in the past where they belong, and we'll welcome you to a modern world without war and hatred...

  92. Respect to Talos and Devout Atheist.

    Hashim Khan, you are like the rest. You get pissed off..start saying rubbish..ridiculing others.. thinking you are right and the whole world doesnt know shit. It's like the only weapon you and many others have got is..Quran in English is not the same as Quran in Arabic. I bet you dont even know what most of it means, because everyone has problems understanding many of its verses.

    But you know Hisham, i dont blame you. Islam teaches you to defend it. It gives you no space to question or doubt it. Quran is a big book. Everyone keeps saying that it's perfect and no one can prove otherwise, but it is not true. You just don't hear the other part of the story. I've always thought it would be hard to prove that Quran is not divine, but later i figured out that Quran is simpler than what i thought. It's just a book of literature.

    I am an Ex-Muslim.. now without religion.

  93. Muhammed was a homicidal rapist, a pedofile, a homosexual, a thief, and a prophet. If Muslims want to worship an individual of this caliber, I say we need to OUTLAW Islam in western civilization. These kinds of things are not tolerated in today's society, and they want to force religious facism on the rest of the world! Muslims, you can't burn in hell, cause there is no hell!

  94. problems in sound

  95. Yep, you made a point, Bob. A very, very weak point. And while you were making your point, you made a few glaring errors based on ridiculous assumptions and a lack of knowledge.

    1)Religion is not a racial phenomenon as it permeates much of humanity and regarless of the skin colour of those who believe it, it is still only defensible by the insistence of the believers that they "just know" that it is truth, not by any hard facts.
    2)Hitler believed in the occult--a form of religion. These beliefs drove many of his most despicable actions.
    3)The catholic religion was key to Napolean's views of a unified Europe.
    4)Alexander frequently consulted oracles (whose powers of divination apparently came from the Gods of his time) in order to make key decisions during his campaign of conquest.

    In all of these cases, religion or beliefs in supernatural powers was a main driving force behind the actions of the individuals you've named.

    As for your "good point about 'freedom of speech'", many non-religious people, like myself, believe in true freedom of expression despite the preposterous laws and rules put in place by our governments who also happen to be inlfuenced by their own religion.

    Just as you feel it's your right to believe in an all-powerful invisible man who acts as a moral authority I feel it's my right to ridicule your factless assumptions and shed light on the fallacies inherent in all that religion stands for. That, my friend, is the freedom to express that I believe in.

  96. Just as white people say they have freedom, then why can't muslims? Yes they are violent so what, they have a strong belief in islam just like westeners have a strong belief in freedom of speech. Plus I dont think they should judge the religion of islam for this because history is filled with white armys taking over the world MOST OF THE TIME, that happened with alexander, hitler and nepoleon. There are an endless numebr of catholiic priests who are paedaphiles, my point is it's not the location or overall religion that is the problem, the problem is that certain number of people will have their beliefs. Also I think there was a good point made by one of the people being interviewed and it was that western society actually doesnt support freedom of speech, for example you cant say the namesw of the soldiers who died in war in iraw in front of westminister(somewhere in london), you can't cant make groups on facebook if that group is judging someone (often in not good or bad ways) with out their permission and you can't say rude words at school/ work because they think its rude (JUST LIKE MULSIMS THINK ITS RUDE TO MAKE PICTURES WHICH DEPICT THE PROPHET). With the evidence i have given along with my argument, I think that OBVIOUSLY makes a very good point about "freedom fo speech".

  97. On the subject of Islam (Mohammedanism) Winston Churchill wrote in his book "The River of War"

    "How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. —Sir Winston Churchill pages 248-50

  98. I think that western world is hypocrite because they can't tolerate Holocaust denial :P

  99. Hashim Khan is a typical Muslim who wants as to learn Arabic to understand the koran. Fact Judaism came first, then Christianity third Islam. Islam is a copycat of both Christianity and Judism.

  100. Right at the beginning there is an angry muslim holding a banner which says 'Freedom of expression go to hell' - will he be the first to march into the flames with his pathetically ironic little banner then?

    Do they include their freedom to express their anger in whatever stone-age, Neanderthal manner they impotently choose, like flag burning?

    As pointed out by our fabulous English comedian Mr Mitchell........

    On burning the flag in front of the camera they shout 'We burn your flag'. No, you bearded mesogonistic twat, it's YOUR flag, you bought it, it's YOURS. YOU are burning YOUR flag that YOU bought with YOUR money! HA!

    We can't help it if protesting muslim extremists look like a bad Monty Python sketch. I shall continue to feel free to express myself by laughing at them.

    How embarrasing for decent moderate Muslims, who want to modernise and join the 21st century. Or for those who read the message of peace deftly hidden in the Koran and want an end to this backward culture.

    Please let us turn our attention to these warmongering oil-worshipping leaders who prevent the cultivation of non-oil based energies and keep us enslaved to oil for their own benefit and stop fighting their wars and playing into their politics.

  101. Children are taught to share, but as Western adults, it's all about how much *you* can gain.

    Children are ridiculed for having imaginary friends, but religion brainwashes to the opposite.

    People only believe in their God because they have been taught it from birth, just like having a native language. People convert because they need external influences to tell them what to think and "membership" to a group that makes them feel that they belong.

    Everybody should be able to think and speak, but if I think that you're talking ****, I will tell you, and you can tell me.

    Violence is for the losers.

  102. go youtube search Ahmad Deedat or Dr.zakir Naik and watch their debates against christian mishinaries and Other.
    Here a Fact:

    Over 20,000 AMERICANS CONVERT TO ISLAM Each year and its Growing

  103. To all the moderate muslims out there:

    Is Allah really so thin-skinned that he can't stick up for himself and needs people here to commit violent acts against each other to protect his honor ?

    If my house catches fire, I'm going to put it out. I'm not going to beseech my absentee landlord to come and put it out for me and I'm certainly not going to question whether it was a bad lamp or a candle that started it. And whether or not it was my own fault is of no consequence when putting it out.

    Life is life - there is no judgment. It's up to use to behave with respect and civility toward one another (regardless of what they think) simple because it's the right thing to do, not because of some promised reward.

  104. Khan, why do you seek to argue rather than educate and enlighten ?
    Before answering, remember that it's not right for you to judge others based on their opinions....

    Antagonistic comments like "clean out your mind" and "get your facts straight" indicate that you are threatened by an opposing argument. Your insistence on the use by others of the Arabic "Qu'ran" rather rather than the anglicized "Koran" suggests not only a weakness in your own argument being masked with hostility, but also indicates an unwillingness to accept other points of view and an attempt at domination through intimidation.
    What you are saying suggests that's not the view of Islam you're trying to portray, yet the tone of your comments say otherwise. If you are trying to act as a positive agent of the prophet, I'm afraid you're not doing a very good job.

    Your argument with respect to muslims not starting any wars is irrelevant - both sides of a conflict are responsible for perpetuating it. Perpetuating a conflict is morally corrupt (albeit easier) and is a blatant manifestation of the anthropological need to dominate. All religions use the primal fear of "the other" to achieve this.

    Ever notice how human conflicts rarely end in a draw ? The conflict continues until one side dominates.

  105. dude i ant trying to convince you of just stating facts so the next person that gets pissed off about this doc. wont say something stupid and hateful. im glad u know more then the average Joe, thats sick... but still you cant understand the Qur'an in English and asking people what they think it means isnt going to get u the true meaning to the book. i read the english translation and i have to fix so many mistakes in it.

    my spelling... i know is bad... im working on it but the book has a name and the name is spelled Qur'an not Koran ... its like as if your name is Jason and i spell it Lason.Watch Dr.Zakir Naik if u havent already. he might answer some of your questions that other Muslims can not.

  106. Khan, I am much more informed than you give me credit for. I majored in religious studies and have traveled extensively in the middle east amongst other places. I have educated myself much more than the average person before I took this position against not just your religion, but all religions. Although I don't read arabic text, I've conversed for endless hours with english speaking muslims who've represented just about every argument against my point of view. They have been unable to provide valid answers for the most basic questions I've asked regarding their faith which is much the same as the zealots of any other religion, although I must admit your people are even more fervent than the Christians, lol. The fact is, Khan, your faith is based on Christianity which in turn is based on Judaism and all three religions share contradictions between what is written and what is actually held to be truth. All three faiths give meaning to the words which aren't there and completely fabricate concepts when it suits them and lends support to their "interpretation" of the words. All three religions advocate hatred and violence against others whether it be homosexuals, lepers, or infidels etc. . . . and all three speak of miracles and magic beings which cannot be proven. Let me finish by saying that you are wasting your time trying to convince me otherwise because I've INTELLIGENTLY analyzed your religious texts and precepts and found them to be false. Oh, and before you criticize my spelling of the word "koran" you should learn how to spell basic words and form proper sentences first.

  107. HAHAHAHA All you people really need to clean out your mind. lol
    Koran LMFAO its Qur'an you moron if your going to talk shit about something at least get your facts straight!!!
    Talos... your right it does talk about killing of non Muslims... look at how the religion was passed down. it was kill or be killed. the people from mucca came over to madina to kill the muslims...what would u do sit there and lut them kill you your wife and kids....i dont think so. never have muslims started a war, never. there is no reference of killing people because they did not accept the religion. your responsible to invite that is it nothing more. it is not us that get you interested in the religion its god. all we do is show u what it is and u decide what to do. if you tell the dude to piss off, he might or he'll keep referencing it. if you want to know more he can show you only if he/she has majored in that field. also an English translation is not at all correct. it not even close. there's not enough word in English as compared to Arabic . one word can have may meanings. ie) luts say oafhoh that's not a word but let us use that for now... that could have 30 meaning in Arabic and only 2 in English. it all depends on the sentence in witch it is being used in. redo your homework!!! it is not allowed its a sin to kill anything for no justifiable cause. may that be an ant or a a rhino. killing is wrong. now what happened on 911 is not an act of Islam that is the exact opposite of it. Ask any Muslim they'll tell you this and more. you people think you know what we are about but you dont. before opening your big mouth look into what u want to know. dont be so argent. what you see on tv is not who we are. if that where true everyone would be dirt poor and on the verge of extinction. no one would care for anyone. to be a Muslim is not to only pray 5 times a day or have a beard. its taking care of the people around you. feeding the poor. donating to charities. its a must no questions ask. it doesn't matter what colour you are or what religion you are if the person beside me is hungry and i have the means to provide them with a meal it is my duty to do so not just as a Muslim but as human. no one sees it because they dont want to. everyone is conforming to what they want. take some from here and there and put it all together. its all or nothing. its sad to see and read about people saying shit about other people and other religion. esspicially when they have no idea about the topic.
    because of one jack ass the Muslims around the world have to listen too other peoples crap. keep it up. its not just coincidence that Islam is the #1 religion in the world. and growing. People are doing there homework they want to know why Muslims are so pissed at everyone... the funny thing is we are not. everyone's pissed at us and people are starting to realize that. sooner or later we will know what is what.

    so dont talk shit behind your cpu and get your facts straight, do your homework before you open your mouth, if you dont have anything nice to say say nothing at all,
    life is to short spend time with family, friends, have convos with random people you learn alot about yourself.
    give to charity's and feed the hungry. humanity is not dead, its hibernating

  108. I've read many translations of different religious texts including the koran. When it comes to this religion I have had certain verses explained to me in depth by religious scholars(to avoid being called ignorant when I debate) and have yet to find a single person, muslim or other, who can refute the fact that this book contains verses which invite believers not only to hate and shun every non-muslim, but also to deceive them, hate them, fight them and even kill them. No interpretation is necessary. The words speak pretty clearly for themselves no matter which 'version' you happen to be reading. Don't believe me? Try googling "koran verses on killing nonbelievers" and then cross reference the quoted segments against a genuine "muslim-approved" version of this book.

  109. Muslims don't respect people that are not musmlim. So why should we respect those idiots.

  110. Thank God I'm an atheist!

  111. Hey cannt we open up our mind and eyes ? Is it important to show respect others at least as a humanbeing? ya i do believe we have the freedom to express our feelings and views but it doesnt mean hamperring other emotions or faith if it is related to religion. We need to treat ourself on apolite way we need to be united rather making continious conflicts..............

  112. If they can't stand that we like freedom of speech and want to make fun of things like religion, then they can just go back to Iraq where you don't have freedom of speech and enjoy your fascism there instead of trying to export this fascism to Europe.

    "Cause its my faith ,and its my right."
    -imran rabbani

    Forcing your religious rules on other people is not your right. Threatening to kill those who make fun of your imaginary god is not your right.

  113. hi,
    thats a good investigative documentry about those persons ,who were stimulating things ,from both sides (what ever there views are,as they think).
    i am a muslim ,and what ever a person say about these cartoons ,for there justification, its wrong. Cause its my faith ,and its my right.
    those who burn the flags ,and embassy ,they think thats there right to do so ,cause they can ,what ever there stimulation was at that time ,its there mind set ,and most of all the understanding of religion .
    freedom of expression is a different thing to them in the prospective of religion. they dont take religion as westren people do.
    with all ,poverty or lack of education of what ever a westren person think the reason of this much anger ,is ,that the only have religion to think,act and live . with there firm point of view.