Confessions of an Undercover Cop

Confessions of an Undercover Cop

2011, Crime  -   83 Comments
Ratings: 7.76/10 from 140 users.

Mark Kennedy spent seven years as an undercover cop, living a double life, juggling two identities, and dealing with a pressure of lying to people everyday. And if that wasn't difficult enough he fell in love with one of the people he was spying on. This is story of one man living two lives and what happened when all came crushing down, when Mark Stone was exposed as an undercover cop.

His childhood was uneventful, happy... normal. His dad was in the police, he was a traffic officer. Mark joined the City of London Police in 1990 and then he was transferred to the Metropolitan Police. He worked on some very interesting stuff such as investigating race and hate crimes against minority groups.

In the mid 90's there were lot of operations on preventing street level drug dealing and lot of them were undercover. He passed the course and shortly afterwards he was accepted onto a team. He was a test-purchase officer, part of a whole investigative team usually based on particular London estate. Basically he'd go and buy drugs from a suspected dealer and other people would be photographing the event and watching his back and latter on arrests would be made.

With practice he adopted a new personality, he opened up lot of doors, he met lot of different people involved in crime, and he broadened up his horizons. He was so good that one time when a dealer was arrested, and when they told her that she sold drugs to an undercover cop, she wouldn't believe it... she was keep saying "no way, he's a friend of mine."

Soon, the National Public Order Intelligence Unit got interested in him. He didn't even know that such unit existed. He was invited to a couple of meetings and interviews and he was finally selected. He was told that his role will be to provide information to the authorities so they could proportionally police demonstrations.

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83 Comments / User Reviews

  1. Alison

    Corporate "PIGS" were definitely behind this and that's why the "PIGS" (police) have nothing to say!! Stop supporting the "Corporate World"!! ...start with WalMart!!

  2. wainy1

    I think he was duped, an now he knows this. Let the person who has never made a mistake or been conned moralize. And does he think it is right to get paid for the interview? what a question if the answer is no then the question should be is it right to show the interview? good luck Mr whoever you want to be so long as you do good from here on in.

  3. Diana Rosalind Trimble

    I remember when this story came out and the first pictures of Kennedy/Stone were released. I immediately recognized him from the first Climate Camp action in England, near the DAX power plant. His eyes give him a very distinctive look and I recall him as serving food at one of the camps, I believe it was the Nottingham group. He did not seem out of place at all but totally blended in. I can definitely understand the feelings of hurt and betrayal from those who were personally involved with and trusted the guy, but I think that some of the comments here painting him as a horrible human being are way off the mark! Spies have ALWAYS been encouraged to use sex as a way to get close to people they want information from and indeed, after this story broke it transpired that this was not a unique situation and that other undercover officers were sexually involved with their marks. What was different in this case is that Kennedy/Stone had a genuine love affair that was completely mutual. Very complicated indeed! Also, after living another identity for 7 years, can it really be said that Stone "did not exist". Clearly he was an aspect of Kennedy himself. This was a guy who joined the force for what I would call "the right reasons". Not all cops are a--holes and I believe this man when he talks about the community work he did to combat racism and improve police relations with the public. It was not his fault that in the course of his work he got selected for this assignment to infiltrate the activists and I am quite sure that at the beginning he would have no way of knowing that they were not violent criminals. Also, some of them are! Take it from someone who also used to be a part of the exact same scene. By the time he figured out that this was a bogus assignment, he was essentially in too deep. What was he supposed to do then, quit his job, go confess to the activists and hope his girlfriend didn't dump him when he told her he was a cop?

    It does not sound like a simple situation at all and people so quick to judge should recall that these are humans we are talking about, not cardboard cutouts of "cop" and "activist". In the end, I think that the Kennedy/Stone case had a positive effect on both the image of activists in the UK and changes to the way undercover police work is done. This poor guy was used badly and the people who feel he used others badly should remember that the knife can cut both ways. It certainly did in this case. Bottom line: no one got busted as a result of intelligence gathered by Kennedy/Stone so how is he a "snitch". Grow up and understand the complexities of life, people!

    1. Geo

      The problem is that the parents let government be in charge of education. So we are indoctrinated into deferring to authorities as having good science and/or reason for their decisions and edicts. (Nothing could be further from the truth.)

      Therefore NO education is delivered regarding the dangers of govt. No moral questions regarding govt authority are raised, except the lack of govt action (regarding pollution for instance), so almost no one thinks about such moral questions of what they are assigned to do until after they have the scars of being asked or ordered to, and doing the wrong thing. Same applies to most wars. Most wars since and including WW1 were ginned up and manipulated into being by ultra rich weasels who think they are entitled to manipulate the world to their benefit and liking. The soldiers are duped and browbeat by so called patriots. Its no wonder some have difficulty adjusting after realizing what they have done.

      Fortunately I was gifted by the creator to stop and think, once in awhile anyway. During campus interviews by prospective employers, one asked me if I had any problem working on military weaponry, bombs and such. I had to stop and think ...I really need a job. I need to eat ...but these things kill people. I don't want to have a hand in killing people. So I said, yeah I do (have a problem with that). That ended the interview. Would have been a lucrative career. So people can say no and find a different job, even if it is lower pay. The problem is when enough, basically prostitutes(sell themself for money) continue to do something, even after they realize it is wrong.

      Lawyers have a large blame. Where are all the attorneys who support these dupes of govt in getting out of their situation? While there are plenty of lawyers working for govt, turning the screws in on those who have the notion to go against the govt lies and BS. Which law group is helping the no name grunt get themselves out of killing more innocent people or if not innocent, those who don't want foreign invaders shooting at them to protect the bankster petro dollar currency exchange fees or some pipeline route through Afghanistan?

      Such situations are unfortunate. Making excuses for someone who had to know something was wrong but preferred to keep doing it rather than the alternatives, doesn't help frame the minds of others to stop doing the wrong thing. Why should they if a bunch of people will make excuses for them?

    2. Rachael Foy

      Was it concensual if the woman did not know who she was sleeping with. I think you need to listen to the women who were lied to and taken advantage of for years to give you a more rounded understanding. Police are not spies. Spies are spies and as such have guidelines and ways of working. Unlike the police who are police and don’t know how to spy

  4. cyberfrank

    what a mess, the government, police brutality, his personal life... what a waste!

  5. tikibam

    Busting petty drug pushers and infiltrating protest movements isn't admirable, even less so when you realize how the British soldiers allowed the drug trade to continue uninterrupted in Basra during the Iraq war.

  6. Sarstewa

    That is why police departments shouldn't put people undercover for years, and why they often don't because it is damaging. It is damaging for the officer, damaging for anyone he interacts with etc. He thinks these criminals care for him, because he had to think like that to survive and succeed at his job, so now he basically has some seriously issues.

    1. Carole Bucz


      He thinks these criminals care for him, because he had to think like that to survive and succeed at his job,

      Thèse activists are nt and weren t "criminals" they were as he said people , the few people, ...with a social conscience
      You re criminally unintelligent for writing comments like that

    2. Sienna

      To call these people, who have a strong social conscience and are trying to better the world, criminals is ignorant. Most of us don't have the fortitude to put our lives out on a limb to make things better for the environment and future generations. It's pathetic that you think you have the right to criticize!

  7. ve

    Learn to forgive.

  8. rljp

    I think if people want to break into private property or conspire to break into private property even for social justice reasons the police have a duty to uphold law and order. I do not agree with their violence and beating people however but you cannot have people cutting into fences or breaking into buildings etc. After all breaking into a building caused a president to resign. His flaw was breaking the code of intimacy sexually for which he obviously shows remorse and thus was not psychologically profiled sufficiently by police or has been said by some he may have made the perfect candidate for the job from a strategic point for the police. If I owned a business and was breaking no laws I would expect that society would prevent people from willfully breaking into my establishment.

    1. Geo

      If you had a super clean small biz ...with no chummy friends at any of the policing agencies, you would find out just how little society and the police care about you. Think Ferguson MO, Seattle WA, and other places they let the criminals or groups get away with wanton destruction which served no good purpose at all. It did lower prices in those areas so those streets could be bought up on the cheap by those far behind the scenes, behind those funding the communist thug groups. This tactic of lowering prices is as old as dirt. Not much different than tactics depicted in the 2019 movie The Gentlemen to lower the price for that biz.

  9. dekay49

    This poor guy is looking for a little sympathy, and I would like to give it to him. He is such an exemplary specimen of human ambulatory excrement and I am very sorry that he did not have his entire skeletal structure rearranged in the form of having his cranium repositioned to some dark odiferous orifice in the posterior of his body. But, on the brighter side, I sincerely hope that he never has a minute of peace for the rest of his life, he at least deserves that.

    1. Diana Rosalind Trimble

      You must be the greatest person that ever lived to have written such a shining example of compassionate understanding. And to do it in tortured purple prose like that definitely wins you a big glitter ribbon emblazoned with the syllable "duh"!

  10. alfredkarius

    One has to question whether Britain is a democracy. I don't think so. Ever since Thatcher, Britain has been acting like a mini-me America, doing everything America does, following America along the path to a totalitarian, plutocratic police state.

    1. orlud69

      You are absolutely right.

      Makes you wonder if america has something on our government that they don't want the public knowing why else would our government jump when america says so...

    2. Diana Rosalind Trimble

      Actually, one has far more rights in the USA than in Britain. Here are a couple of important ones:

      1. The right to remain silent when arrested, known as the "Miranda Rights" in the USA, guarantees that you don't have to talk to the cops without a lawyer present. In contrast, the UK version says that yeah, you kind of have the right to remain silent but anything you DON'T say when arrested, but later rely on in your defense is going to be treated with suspicion. This is pretty much the exact opposite of Miranda and means that basically you do NOT have the right to remain silent or to have a lawyer present when being questioned.

      2. The law known as "fruit of the poisoned tree" means that in the USA, illegally obtained evidence may not be used in a prosecution. This means that a search warrant must be obtained prior to searching a home, except in extreme circumstances such as if a crime was actually taking place and a pursuit ended up in a home. Some criticize the law as being too favourable to criminals; even if child porn was found in someone's house, if the cops didn't obtain this evidence legally, the case will get thrown out of court. But on the plus side, it means that cops are motivated to obtain a search warrant and be sure that a search is conducted legally. In the UK, no such law exists and illegally obtained evidence is just fine for a prosecution.So why bother to go through the hassle of getting a search warrant when it has no bearing on whether a case can be prosecuted or not? The result, in the UK, is lots of illegal searches taking place with no consequences. Also, it makes it much easier to plant evidence- if there are no controls on how evidence is obtained then this compromises the "chain of custody", so what is to prevent officers first illegally entering a property to plant, and then entering again illegally later to retrieve, evidence? Do you see the problem?

      Britain is already far more of a police state than the USA could ever be and people who claim otherwise have undoubtedly not lived in, and been busted in, both countries, as I have! It is stupid reactionary nonsense to call the USA a police state and I would wager that you, alfredkarius, have never set foot in the US.

      (BTW, don't use the word "America" when you mean the US: America is a continent that includes Canada and Mexico as well as many other countries and it is disrespectful towards and dismissive of those places to use the word to refer solely to the USA, even if it is clear to another person that this is what you mean.)

    3. alfredkarius

      Actually I have lived in both countries and there is no doubt that the USA is a far far more oppressive country. I have interacted with police in both countries. One is not afraid of the police in the UK. A citizen of the USA is 100 times as likely to be shot by their police than a citizen of the UK.

    4. Paul

      @Diana Rosalind Trimble
      For a start off you've just made up a British version of the USA's Miranda rights. When arrested in the UK, you don't have to say a word and when questioned can do that or say no comment on every question. In Britain, people arrested have the right to silence just the same as the USA and if you'd actually been arrested in both countries you'd know this. I'm personally a dual national from my mothers' side and have lived in New York and Boston where my family over there lives. I've lived in the UK for 25 and have been on both ends of the law either side of the pond and if you can't see what the US has turned into your one-eyed to the situation. I know I'm not gonna get blown away by a cop for no reason that seems to happen every day now in the USA. The fact is the Police and all the other alphabet offsprings are the biggest gang in the world. f anything in Britain atm there isn't enough police on the streets, I hardly see any anymore. in the US it was a daily routine. Just to show the difference in the level of professionalism lets look at a study that identified 6,724 cases involving the arrests of 5,545 sworn officers across the USA between 2005 and 2011 for a variety of criminal acts.[218] That is, on average, police officers are getting arrested around 1,000 times per year. 41% of the total crimes were committed while the officers were on duty. A breakdown listed five main types of crimes:

      sex-related police crime (1,475 arrest cases of 1,070 sworn officers)
      alcohol-related police crime (1,405 arrest cases of 1,283 sworn officers)
      drug-related police crime (739 arrest cases of 665 sworn officers)
      violence-related police crime (3,328 arrest cases of 2,586 sworn officers)
      profit-motivated police crime (1,592 cases of 1,396 officers)

      Yeak the USA's cops are great.

      As for your 2nd paragraph, got any evidence of all these illegal searches and evidence planting. You're on very shaky ground when it comes to police corruption when you compare USA and Britain, especially when it seems Cops can kill at will it's own people with no consequences at times. Just recently in Ferguson alone, have a read into the DOJ report on that mess. while I was living there through the 90's on there was some huge cases that implies that police can enter freely and don't need search warrants, it's rubbish and you may want to do a simple google search. Like -
      If the police wish to obtain a warrant to search premises, they apply to the magistrates’ court. The magistrates’ court is likely to grant a search warrant if they believe the police have reasonable grounds to suspect that an indictable offense has been committed and that the premises needed to be searched may contain evidence or materials that will be of beneficial importance to any subsequent trial. The courts will also investigate whether a search of the premises in question would be impossible without the granting of such a warrant.

      If the magistrates’ court grants a search warrant, the police may be allowed entry to:

      an identified premises;
      any premises occupied or owned by the person named on the search warrant;
      one premises on a number of occasions as stated in the search warrant; or
      unlimited entries into the same premises.

      The only exceptions are;
      tackle or stop a breach of the peace; fighting or blatantly smoking a crack pipe in your garden.
      enforce an arrest warrant;
      arrest someone in connection with certain serious offences;
      recapture someone who has escaped from custody;
      save life or prevent serious damage to property;.

      Which imo are fair exceptions, maybe not to those from the USA that treat the 1st amendment like an extreme religion.

      Let's have a look at the freedoms Britsih and most Europeans have, we don't get charged for jaywalking lol, we can drink on the streets freely without arrest. We can drink at 18, have sex at 16 and yes we can own certain types of guns, just it's far far more controlled. The bail system in the USA is a joke and completely oppressive to minorities and poor. Where in England you get remanded on the seriousness of the crime and your criminal history.
      I read the other week you can get out on bail on say minor offenses drugs, fights etc & you have an 80% chance of not seeing a day in jail. Those that can't afford $200 can spend years sometimes before it gets to court. ie The Kalief Browder Story. So much for the rule of a fast and speedy Trial.

      The USA seems to love the fact that their freedoms are written down, which was really pinched off the British hundreds of years ago when we had the Bill of Rights.
      IMO Britain outgrew that Bill due to centuries of stability and faith in the Government. America was born out of a rebellion against a government seen as oppressive and violent. Britain - or at least, England - has never really seen oppression. There are isolated incidents, and the general class system which keeps people in their place, but there has never been genocide here, England has never seen secret police, and so on.

      What the UK has experienced is terrorism. I know that the US had a rude awakening in 2001 - getting on for two decades now - but the Irish Troubles began in the 1960s. Britain has had close to half a century of terrorism, to one degree or another.

      I think that shapes people’s impressions. We have a government that hasn’t ever really oppressed us - so less reason to distrust them - and a long-term, genuine threat. Hence, that moves to another point surveillance or CCTV's been more common here. TBH most of that is made up of the number plate recognition system that runs on all motorways or highways, to catch people who don't tax or insure their cars primarily. Also If you take the idea of positive freedom, then the cameras help protect my freedom from harm. I’m less worried that a guy will mug me and get away with it because they'll be probably be caught on camera.
      Ateotd I think people are more accepting of the surveillance in the UK, compared to the US. Also when I've been in the USA there is an overwhelming amount of private CCTV and houses and business compared to Britain which must be down to the crime, especially in the Cities.

      Anyway long story short as someone who has lived and experienced the good and bad in both Countries I've chosen to raise my family back in England. I much prefer freedom from harm, in particular, the freedom to not worry about extreme poverty, treatable illness, gun violence, etc are all greater, due to the existence of a reasonably well-functioning welfare state. As well as in the USA the 2 party system that can't agree on anything that belief in religion seems to play a much larger role in US elections.

  11. kelvinhanratty

    Interesting how lots of time was devoted to his love of this activist girl, yet hardly anything to his wife and kid(s). I feel sorry for them.

  12. T Minh

    Long time viewer, first time comment. I have only scanned the comments but I think everyone kind of missed the point. The police that this man worked for knew exactly what would happen, intended it to happen and desired it to happen. They cherrypicked the perfect candidate to operate this for profit operation for the benefit of big corporations. He fit perfectly because he was a misfit as a police officer and therefore fit too important criteria for the job 1. he was disspensible and 2. did not resemble or have the typical appearance of a cop. Also they must have profiled this guy to know that he is kind of a dolt in that he seems not to have figured out not only did they know he started a relationship but probably counted on it so they could disavow themselves if he started to make some noise.
    The police are like any conglomerate, it that they are smart, efficient and laser sighted to accomplishing their mission. They planned this perfectly starting with the person they chose to be the star of the show. They yanked the cord and the rug at the perfect time and this guy still hasn't figured out it was planned all along. I don't want to sound demeaning but to contrary, I hope this guy starts to think critically and see if he has any recourse.

    1. Carole Bucz

      You hit the nail on the head with yr comment, absolutely right you are, I couldn t ve put it better or as half as good-
      I mean it came out when he said , he was surprised how liitle "care" he got from this police guy who was "debriefing" him..
      Mark was surprised, so he resigns , doesnt realise how dispensible he is cause he simply is a bit too emotinal and craving daddy s engage in much critical thinking - -
      Pity the world is full of guys like that
      Conventional and non analytical, he isn t even BAD..he s just TEPID nad that makes him almost perfect for the role allotted to him
      I do not have any sympathy for him
      even if he isnt a rapist or pedophile
      he s still a rotten human being

  13. Name

    who is going to believe or like a professional liar?

  14. sunbyte

    I thought it was a very good documentary. A couple of things stood out to me. The part where he says the results of his efforts devastated lives and that the people he's infiltrating are not selling drugs, guns, or involved with the sex trade industry, they are people with a social function. After 7 years of undercover work and not one person convicted of a crime, that pretty much proves that. I'm sure after being tossed away like a bum after all the work he did, he now realizes he was just a corporate puppet.

  15. Bryan Lammens

    That guy is crying now... Well you should have never been a grass in the first place. Snitches end up in ditches!

  16. Horst Manure

    Just show how much and how far the government will go to get their needs filled..But sadly the crooks go free like Oliver North,Kissinger, Powell etc

  17. jaberwokky

    Very interesting doc, touches on so many moral issues. Having just watched the Brit Marling movie 'The East' there were quite a few sticking points here for me on both sides of the many arguments it throws up.

    I'll add, as someone from Ireland that followed the Dublin Mayday riots closely I can tell you that in my experience the media certainly gets its cake and eats it too. Plenty of our national papers here feel no qualms about switching sides on any given story to up their sales quotas.

  18. Martin Ellacott

    Two faced prick. No one likes a snitch....even the Police don't respect them.

    1. dmxi

      i thought he was more a 'cross-eyed-git' going by the picture!

  19. dmxi

    no wonder he's wearing an 'ACAB' t-shirt.

  20. bringmeredwine

    Mark's under cover and personal life became a series of really big mistakes and bad decisions. I wouldn't want to be him or involved with him.
    The most disturbing part of this doc for me was watching those defenceless kids in Copenhagen getting their skulls kicked in. Reminded me of the Toronto police.
    I think unbeknownst to him at first, Mark's under cover role was to support big business and government interests. The police force was being used. NPOI was being used.
    I agreed with the ex Minister of the Environment's speculations that none of the activities sanctioned by the NPOI,( in this doc), were intended to actually protect the public.
    On the other hand, we can't have people taking over nuclear power plants!; A very unsafe and risky thing to do. Can you imagine the catastrophe if something technical went horribly wrong?
    Its really hard to tell the good guys from the bad in these troubled times...

    1. jaberwokky

      That seems like an incredibly well reasoned point of view.

    2. bringmeredwine

      Hahahaha! Ya think? Glad you liked it.

  21. ~Oliver B Koslik Esq

    He seems remorseful. That is -both- Marks.
    Stricken by his professionally personal deceit.
    But also conflicted by the behavior of the police, that were, supposed to be policing his saftey.

    I hope Mark finds solace to any regret.
    The truth can set you free...


    1. a_no_n

      what's that...the guy whose job was to emotionally manipulate people is displaying an easily faked emotion...he must be telling the truth, there's no other possible answer.

    2. ~Oliver B Koslik Esq

      I understand your point.

      Social manipulation can be extremely difficult to detect. Ergo the era of egos and similar clandestine cowardice (frenemies).

      I believe his love was, just that.

      In the belly, of all beasts, lays a heart.
      It is there where I hope he finds comfort.

    3. a_no_n

      I personally send those hopes toward his victims.

  22. a_no_n

    I remember seeing this sleazebag on the news.
    in my mind, if you sleep with somebody who thinks you're somebody else, you're a rapist.
    As soon as he started developing intimate relationships with people he had read intelligence files on, he stopped being an agent of the law and became a self serving, lol i doubt he even has the capacity to feel love.

    1. jaberwokky

      Hi a_no_n, how's things. Just wanted to say I think your calling this guy a rapist is very harsh. Sleeping with somebody that thinks you're somebody else might be a lot more prevalent than you think, it's a matter of degrees in my experience. I've slept with a number of ladies that never knew who I was and vice versa.

    2. docoman

      I agree. Rape is the wrong word, it's too strong. There isn't a 'forcing against the will', in my opinion dishonesty/fraud is a better fitting word then rape. (and as you say, that's nothing new or uncommon.)
      I wouldn't be surprised if a_no_n's last sentence is pretty close to accurate though. In my opinion, that's a pretty warped sense of what 'love' is. In my experience, trust is a major part of any decent relationship. To me, trust is a prerequisite to a proper relationship, if that goes, then 'love' is an illusion living on borrowed time.

    3. 2star2

      I have a feeling the above comments were written by men? I would call it rape, the woman was giving herself to someone else not him, so he instead of him raped her.

    4. docoman

      Yes, you're right, all of us above that have commented on this bit are men. ( I'm pretty sure). Fair observation mate. I can see your point I think.
      I don't like or agree with what he did, it just depends on the definition of what is rape exactly I guess. I'm not disputing it's wrong.
      Would you agree though, if anyone misrepresents who they are to the other in a relationship, (either partner) it's at least in the same 'ball-park'? Not saying it's rape, but immoral none the less. (In my limited understanding, rape seems to be about physically expressing control over someone else, negating their personal right to self determination and choice. It's a 'mind/physical control thing ?) Which, if that is the criteria, this case may or may not fall under the definition of rape. Hmm, food for thought.

      I think most of us usually do that (at least to some extent) at the beginning... we don't show the other the true 'ugly' parts of ourselves until well into a relationship?

    5. jaberwokky

      That pretty much cuts to the heart of it doesn't it? The 'physical expression of control' part. At least that's how I've been taught to demarcate the definition, which is why I'm wondering so much about this argument now. It certainly is food for thought.

    6. rngfarrell

      This is certainly one of the most interesting discussions I have read on here. I have to agree with docoman. I don't know if this could be considered outright rape, but it is clearly an immoral act, however I think most people at one time or another have misrepresented themselves intentionally - and not just for a relationship. Many people tell white lies in job interviews to make themselves seem more skilled and appropriate for the position for which they are applying. It seems as if there is a fine line between accepted, and, to some extent, expected, deception and intolerable lies. Mark's whole career was based upon crossing that line, and obviously he could not separate his professional and personal lives, so he ended up crossing the line with his relationship.
      I'm not making excuses for Mark and do not condone what he did; this is just my analysis of the situation.

    7. Rohitasch

      Unfair act. Whose morality is it anyway?

    8. rngfarrell

      Sorry, Rohitasch, I don't quite understand what you're asking. If you are asking by what standard is morality measured against, I cant answer that. There is no set standard, rather a loosely-agreed on code of conduct that changes from one culture to another as well as one person to the next.
      Most people agree that deception is harmful to the way society and interpersonal relationships function, and so I base my definition of 'immoral' upon that premise.
      If have misunderstood you, I apologise.

    9. Rohitasch

      The word "morality" is what concerns me here. Deception is "unfair". Unfair people propagate a breakdown in social and interpersonal bonds.
      "Morality", if we go by the majority's definition, is something that needs to be implemented. Usually forcibly. That's all I'm trying to say.

    10. rngfarrell

      Ah, I understand now. Thanks for clearing that up.

    11. Rohitasch

      I'm glad. :-)

    12. Rohitasch

      Let's not get "morality" into this. Its unfair to present yourself as someone other other than what you really are when you get into a relationship.

    13. docoman

      G'day Rohitasch,
      "Let's not get "morality" into this." I can't see how one's morals can be left out of this discussion mate. It's a crime, a very 'psychological' crime, so morality/ethics are a necessary component I'd suggest.
      Is there any 'crime' that morality doesn't come into it?
      I have already agreed what he did was not right.

    14. Rohitasch

      Gidday mate. The word "morality" has associated with it behaviour that itself is unfair. I absolutely agree that what he committed was psychological crime. His behaviour was absolutely bloody unfair, with not sense of justice or consideration whatsoever.

    15. jaberwokky

      Okay, I'll come clean, I'm a male. But should that matter? Is there something inherently male in my line of reasoning here that I should be made aware of?

    16. Pepe Alvarado

      Rape, is sex without consent.

      This would be closer to fraud, and it's not even that.

      Still completely abhorrent

    17. a_no_n

      that's kinda the point i was trying to make (i am male by the way)

    18. a_no_n

      yeah but were you given intelligence files on those women first? and then did you give them a false name, and use your position as an undercover agent to trick your way into their bed? if you did, as this loon did, you raped them. pure and simple. because they did not consent to have sex with YOU.

      howeve having a one night stand with someone you didn't previously know (which is what i presume you're talking about doing), is hardly comparable because that person is still consenting to have sex with YOU, despite not knowing you...

      In short. Saying Hi i'm jabber and i'm a stunt car driver to a chick is hardly the same as what this guy did, it's like comparing apples to really rapey oranges.

      If any of those women had known he was a police officer trying to gather evidence against them, they wouldn't have slept with him, so i stand by my statement that he raped them.

    19. jaberwokky

      "it's like comparing apples to really rapey oranges". I shall never look at apples or oranges again the same.

      I certainly see where you're coming from and I'm not disagreeing that what the guy did is in some regards morally reprehensible but I think using rape to describe this particular type of duplicitous behaviour is opening a door to degrees of interpretation on many other scenarios. What about married guys that are secretly gay? etc etc. It seems like a slippery argument to make, one where the line can be drawn arbitrarily according to each persons interpretations.

      You have made me wonder though, I had been planning on watching one or two James Bond movies tomorrow but now I'm not sure. In fact I may have to reconsider all those rapey orange spy movies I watch from time to time.

    20. docoman

      I think I've read you are British, is that correct mate? English too are you?
      Just had to ask, 'rape' wasn't on your mind after what Graeme Swan said on twitter about losing the Ashes was it? ;) [ in my opinion not a smart analogy to make publicly]

      Well done last tour over there, got us fair and square. Got ya's back here at home though. I'm a bit of a cricket tragic, follow the game yourself do you a_ ?

      I agree with the rest of your assessment, I just think 'rape' is a bit too strong a word, deception, dishonest yep. I agree with your thoughts about him likely being a sociopath that probably hasn't got the capacity for an honest 'love'.

    21. jackmax

      G'day Doco,

      Rape is what it is, he's deception and dishonesty is what makes it rape, would you not agree?

      It is great to see the right nation holding the "URN".

    22. docoman

      Yeah, but reality says there has to be a line drawn somewhere, a definition of what rape is and isn't. (not defending anyone in this doco or anything, don't get me wrong) If it's not being honest with a 'prospective "score" ', then many people are guilty of telling lies (or half-truths by omission , to get what they want. (most young people going out most weekends looking to 'get lucky' I'd suggest don't portray exactly who they are, rather what they think the opposite sex is looking for so as to be attractive to them)

      I'm not sure that's rape, if there is a consent (even if as you say, under false pretenses.)
      Without looking up the definition, my personal feeling is rape is all about consent and control, not sex for a price/payoff/enjoyment/trade.) Rape is about dominating regardless of the victims wish's and feelings. I've had 'fun' as a young bloke, slept with girls I didn't know and didn't know me, but I've never raped anyone. It was all mutual consent, I asked and got a 'yes'. Never rape. If one of them accused me of rape I'd be confused, as they'd said 'yes' and wanted to too. (off topic a bit probably, more about what is and isn't a rape I suppose. I'm no expert, and am happy to be educated more and possibly corrected)

    23. Olya Sweets

      lol then most men are rapist as most men lied at least once in their life to a woman to get sex. Most men told lies like I will respect you in the morning or I love you

    24. Rohitasch

      Women blackmail men all the time.

    25. Olya Sweets

      men give women enough to black mail about: rape, physical abuse, unpaid child support etc. What's your point? We are all bad.

    26. Rohitasch

      Roger. I guess.

    27. docoman

      No , you've not understood my point properly. If it was about pure honesty, then both sexes are guilty of rape. It's more then just honesty, hence the part I said; " my personal feeling is rape is all about consent and control"
      As already replied to you by another poster, women are also dishonest, men don't have a monopoly on that mate. Gender has nothing to do with one's level of honesty in my experience.

    28. Olya Sweets

      Of course both genders are dishonest! Every one has lied at least once in their life time. I just do not think this was rape.
      However, as the point was maid was she to get pregnant then her life and that of a child would forever be ruined. U bring an innocent life into it. A possible lawsuit could have happened. But what about that kid that would have been deprived of any real relationship with his/her father because the father abused the power he had. Too sad!

    29. docoman

      What child? (The only children he had was with his legitimate wife is what I recall watching. )
      Ahh, ok. After reading more of the posts you've made on other threads it makes sense now.
      You're dealing in maybe's, what if's, trying to make an emotional appeal to further your personal view against men.
      Hmm, sad story, but that's all your post was, a story.
      Do you have anything else to add to the conversation, or is Men are Evil the only point you wish to express?

    30. jackmax

      You hit the nail on the head the innocent parties that have been thrown into this sordid affair is his actual wife and children. I think they will suffer from his actions long after the dust has settled.
      He has shown the true colors of a bloke with little or no respect to his wife and children.

    31. jackmax

      i find your comment to be some what sexist and completely biased considering from my experience that both males and females will lie to get what they want,
      "I will respect you in the morning or I love you" has been said by both sexes without meaning many times. It sounds to me that your going by your own experience rather than an informed and educated position.
      If we were honest it appears to me that both sexes can be equally guilty of moral crimes.

    32. jackmax

      G'day Doco,

      I agree with what your saying, however I think there is a huge difference between picking up a one night stand when both given consent and when the deception and dishonesty is being continually used to maintain a relationship under a false pretense.
      I could be way off, but any theft by deception is a crime and as it was sex by deception surely it would have to be sexual assault (rape).

    33. docoman

      G'day mate,

      there's no disputing that what that copper did was wrong, and probably illegal in some way. It was ethically wrong at the very least.

      Effectively the 'rape discussion' comes down to degree's of wrongness, and where the dividing line is placed for rape, legally.

      Pinch a lady on the butt or boob and you could be charged with sexual assault, do it in the workplace and it's sexual harassment. But both fall short of being called rape as I understand it. (a pinch or 'feel-up' only) Sexual assault isn't automatically rape as far as I know.

      What this copper did was much more then a 'pinch' or feel-up. If I was a juror and it was rape charges, I'd need to hear more to make up my mind. I'd have to hear her thoughts too I think, as well us look at that jurisdictions definition of rape.
      From what was said in this doco, I'm unsure to be honest. I'd need to know more to decide properly.

    34. jackmax

      G'day mate,
      Great day for us Aussies at the "G" today, look out Sydney in five days.
      I too would have to look at the evidence and hear from the victim before I would be satisfied an actual crime had been commented, however my comment were more to do with a_no_a post rather than being his judge and jury.
      I may be wrong but from my understanding sexual assault in rape, just like manslaughter is murder. I take on board what you're saying with sexual harrasment, but if the complainant reports that to the police it would be sexual assault (rape) in the eyes of the law I think.

    35. docoman

      I wonder if they can say 5 nil? ;)

      I think the legal answer would come down to that particular jurisdiction and it's laws and any legal precedence if they have any.
      No one seems to dispute what he did was wrong, just to what degree and what to call it really.
      I have no sympathy for him, he lied to everyone, including his real family and real employer, the Police. Now it's time to pay the piper, he doesn't like it.
      Fk him I think, he spread so much BS around in his life, now he's crying that it's starting to smell.
      I suspect the Police don't want to push any charges, it shines light on their activities, there's every chance this 'doco' is as far as it'll go.

    36. jackmax

      From what I've seen 5-0 is in the bag with Mitch Johnson man of the series and 40 wickets.
      I think you're right with the law and the legal aspects.
      The only sympathy I have is for the innocent victims in this whole saga (his wife and children).
      I think the police would have already put this case to bed so to speak, the last thing they would do is air their dirty tactics.
      I think one of the most disturbing aspects is the operation itself, surely the cost to the tax payer with no results should indicate poor management of resources to say the least.
      No doubt they justified it by giving off the impression that it's an on going case and they were gaining very important intel from their man inside.

    37. docoman

      Yes, his kids and wife are innocent and paying the biggest price. For what, some intel on a few of what the police consider 'nutters' breaking into some private businesses. Wrong on many levels the whole thing, starting with the operation. Surely the UK police have more important crimes to chase up then that. I agree, seems a big mismanagement of resources for what mostly amounted to boosting security for private concerns.

    38. a_no_n

      Yeah i'm English for my sins. couldn't care less about Cricket. My little knowledge of it comes entirely from Andy Zaltsman's puns on the subject.

      Fair enough though.

    39. rljp

      In North America 50% of marriages end in divorce. How many of those people did not tell their partner they were married before having a one night stand or an affair. Oh the lawyers would be loving your definition of rape.

    40. a_no_n

      I'm sorry mate but if you don't get why the two aren't really comparable, if you think what this guy did is in any way comparable to some sleaze having an affair then i'm sorry but there's no way i can dumb my argument down enough for you to understand.

    41. mee

      nice defence, but i think you meant to say, you dont have an argument? so if i meet someone, tell them my name is celia (not my name) and have sex with them i am a rapist? what about the two live hookers (some women who work during the day, and sell themselves at night) they live a second life at night, usually under a different name - are they rapists since their "trick" doesnt know their identity? NO - and thats a job too. Prob not a dignified form of job, but for some women desperate to make ends meet and put food on the tables of their children its a job.

    42. a_no_n

      Wow...just Wow...Firstly, you're missing the entire context!

      This man didn't just lie about who he was, he had dossiers on these women, he effectively stalked them, found out everything he could about them, and then used that to worm his way into bed with them whilst he was supposed to be investigating them for a criminal prosecution.

      secondly; trying to compare prostitutes (who are by far raped more than any other group of women on the planet) to actual rapists is so disconnected from reality and morbidly unthinking i'm forced to wonder if you're actually being serious or not,

    43. Diana Rosalind Trimble

      Actually, a_no_n your logic is wrong, though it makes for an interesting side-discussion.
      Mee is correct in pointing out that people misrepresent who they are all the time, you don't have to be an undercover cop! People lie about their name, their age, their occupation - and often their goal is to get more sex. But no actually, this is not the definition of rape no matter how much you might like it to be.

      Like most people in the world, you seem bent on a dualistic understanding of the world in which there is only good vs bad, right vs wrong, us vs them, and so forth. In fact, the whole point of this documentary was to show the grey areas in which reality is more complex, nuanced and conflicted.

      One of the reasons I got out of the UK activist scene was because I found this type of dualism to be rampant and ridiculous in the extreme. The self-proclaimed "anarchists" (none of whom probably ever read a word of Emma Goldman or Peter Kropotkin but just adopted the label as meaning "we can do whatever we want") had a very black-white view of reality and behaved like anybody in a uniform was a minion of Corporate Evil. I have seen "peaceful" activists be extremely verbally abusive to cops who were not in any way doing anything provocative, but were just standing around at protests. Chanting "pig" and so forth, trying to get a rise out of the cops. Just like every other sphere of life, there are "good" cops and "bad" cops but mostly there are human cops who have a bit of bad and a bit of good all mixed together.

      How much you wanna bet that if an "anarchist" was REALLY raped s/he would be dialing 999 right quick?

    44. a_no_n

      Lol, i love the way you tell me my logic is wrong, and then go ahead and spew your own misguided notions all over me like a drunk at kicking out time.

      1/ People certainly do lie about who they are...guess what there are laws against it in extreme cases like this! Just because loads of people do it, that doesn't make it right. that's an argument from popularity and it's a logical fallacy.

      2/ Just because YOU safy behind your keyboard decree it is not rape that doesn't actually bend the forces of space and time to make it a reality. He inticed her into a sexual act after convicing her he was somebody else. If she knew who he was then she wouldn't have wanted to sleep with him. making it non consentual sex, aka rape.

      You can't use his job as an excuse for him because it was not a part of his job to sleep with her, he could have gotten all the (not exactly highest priority) intel he needed without resorting to that. he's pc plod not James Bond!

      3/ Congratulations on making a snap judgement of me based on one comment...and then using that judgement to accuse me of being the kind of person who sees the world in black and white. It's a hypocricy so ironic that it actually made me laugh when i read it...there's this thing called self awareness, you might want to give it a google sometime in the near future.

      4/ "REALLY raped" Great so now not only are you passing judgement on what is and isn't rape you're now mocking rape in general...You're a classy bird ain't ya? People like you are the reason Rape is one of the most underreported crimes in society!

      Personally i think anarchists are naive idiots who don't know how the world actually works...That doesn't mean i believe they can be used like sex toys by power mad policemen investigating them.