Cults: Dangerous Devotion
The dark and dangerous world of cults has long been a source of both fascination and fear. What attracts followers to cults and, more importantly, what makes them stay?
In this special feature-length documentary, journey behind closed doors into a secret world where faith and devotion give way to desperation and despair.
From the bizarre prophecies of Charles Manson to the desperate paranoia of Jim Jones, cult leaders draw followers into worlds of power, obsession, and sometimes death.
Hear from parents who have lost their children to cults and travel back in time to examine how cults have been attracting devotees throughout history.
Featuring archival footage and interviews with renowned scholars, survivors, and faithful adherents, CULTS: DANGEROUS DEVOTION is an eye-opening examination of a hidden world few people will ever see.
I am at this very moment doing alll I possibly can to save losing my son forever to a cult. It is breaking me my heart is in so much pain n my head feels like its goin explode as for last week all i have been doing is 24 hours a day ways make my son see that it is evil what is happening to him. He is leaving as he said n never coming back n I will never see him again but will TRY keep in contact. My world is shattered i feel dead inside n i only have days left. If i could afford a Private Investigator to follow my son for the next few days left here believe me I would with all my heart. I just do not understand watsoever how they are still active. I saw the Church of Scientology yesterday in Belmont n before even got to the so called Church the eery feeling was horrible. The building would be worth million. N also WHAT CHURCH STAYS OPEN FROM 9am to 10 pm Monday through to Friday??????
Interesting documentary, but I found the tone of voice of the narrator so upleasantly and inappropriately exited, almost randy at times (especially when talking about the child wives) that I nearly quit several times.
I don't believe for one minute that Christianity is a cult. Too often Christianity has been taken by individuals and manipulated into what fits them. Christianity isn't about religion at all, true Christianity is about persueing relationship with Christ, salvation, and sharing the Good News with others. It's about humbling yourself and living a life of love for Jesus Christ and love for others, that's all.
good documentary, shame History Channel didn't have the balls to say the US Government killed all those people at Waco. But all in all, was a very interesting watch.
@ 7:36 That scripture is found in the book of mormon 3rd nephi chapter 12 v27- Behold it is written by them of old time, that thou shalt not commit adultery; v28 But i say unto you, that whosoever Looketh on a women to lust after her hath already commited adultary in his heart. This video is not facts at all.
I better mention the so called Mormon is not a Mormon. Mormons do not rape.
Cults are a sad thing. Bless anyone who has only a cult to turn to.
WOW! This was eye opening, disturbing and so sad. Shocking as well to see the baby laying on the ground dead:( Alot of people have commented and said well why could the people not see what was happening. I can honestly say that I have been in those people's shoes. I was totally oblivious to what was going on. I went to Pentecostal church's and revival meetings and was very very fanatical years ago about my beliefs. What snapped me out was that I became very depressed and felt very isolated and began questioning God and my family as to why would God want me to feel this way. I went for counselling and read a book called" Spiritual Abuse". I am sorry that I don't know the author but that book opened my eyes and as I began reading it, I realized that I was a victim of Spiritual Abuse. The bible was being used to control and manipulate not used as a book to learn stories. I have witness first hand lots of things and watching this and flashing back makes me wonder how I would have reacted if someone who I totally looked up to and someone who I thought was a church family member turned and became violent or abusive sexually or whatever. A friend of mine was helping a man named Dennis Goodell who had claimed to be a prophet of God travel to south Korea to preach. He was in a wheel chair and needed their help what they thought was to sell his merchandise there. When my friend came back she had told me that he got her to help him go to the wash room and asked her if she could also help him get off. I was so disturbed and shocked, but her parents said to me at the time that we should just let it go because Men of GOd make mistakes and we should forgive. yadda yadda. I think that people are looking for love and acceptance in religion or in there church. When that church becomes a close nit family, the leader could very well become power hungry and corrupt. I really enjoyed this documentary and how thorough it was, Thanks for posting. For all those who are involved in organised religion be wise to listen to your heart and not the man who is preaching because he says that the very words he speaks are from God. I encourage you to question and then question some more. Be aware that some of these leaders get caught up and lost and can manipulate the truth for whatever reason. Sorry if i have offended anyone, just speaking from experience.
EVERY organized religion is a cult.
Ever read the book by
Jean - Marie Abgrall,
The Mechanics of Cults?
Another 'eye/ayin' opener.
Possibly avaible in 'pdf'.
What a good documentary...it's such a shame that people put themselves in those positions and are so blinded by what they strongly believe
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! So there are a few messed up cults but not all cults are like this Christianity is worse then most these anyways thousands murder'd Jews did their share of killing to... No better no less
Christianity may be many things.. if one reads a REAL DICTIONARY ( Oxford-English, for example) one will learn that Christainity fits the definition Christians accuse other religions of being. Christianity has taken a lot of perfectly good words and through misapplication and abuse, changed their meanings forever to something bad.
Christians like to think their God created everything. I view this as a cheap attempt to steal the DEED TO THE UNIVERSE (as well all other Universes)
Christians travel at the SPEED OF DARK
There's also interesting and tragic case of the Falun Gong in China, where they are just a Taoist new-agers with a knack for exercise. But the party declare them a dangerous cult and subject the practitioner to murderous torture and rumored of organ theft from their bodies.
Right, and so is abuse of any who dare to challenge those "historical facts." IOW feel free to oppress those who are not true believers of "the facts"-right? Don't ask questions. Just swallow whatever you are spoonfed by the oppressor.
Myra McQueen, Christianity was a cult. This is a historical fact.
I have to say that the writer who accuses Christ of being cultish, is most likely a power monger himself. He just wants to control people's thinking, like the other cults who rearrange history and the Bible. I suppose this is related to the fact that they have some proof of their theories?? but they don't give it.
Good to hear the this documentary at the beginning stated that Christianity was a CULT started by an Carpenters son.
Well Cults, or Religion, all the same, it is all a scam, a fairy tale, Muslim religion and Christian religion - - - both are cults of death, intolerance, deceit, fear, and abuse, condoning slavery, abuse, and all the other atrocities that go against all the human rights. They have nothing to do with faith. The only thing is - - - that those two are at the moment the most successful in bullshiting people - - - -
Guess I better log in to see what the trolls have to say.
Yah, Achems knows about the bible because he teaches theology but doesn't believe a word of it.
One last think "tommy boy" WHAT-IF the Bible was written by "Satan" to DECEIVE you? (I don't believe in him, either) Wouldn't that be a hoot? Just suppose the gay-man "paul" got-paid by the Jews to invent Christianity to be THEIR Military arm?
To murder millions, and use "it is God's will" as an excuse? That way, the Jews wouldn't have to take the blame for the evil they create. I'm surprised you can "see" that it WASN'T PILOT that killed your man, it was the Jewish Priests! So I give you credit for uncovering that myth. Speaking of Myths, even Moses was a copy of Sargon. "Found floating in a basket, by a princess and raised by her."
Same exact story. And please, spare me the COP-OUT "Satan did that to fool us," CRAP! If Satan lives, he does so by conning YOU into believing there's some "God" out-there; listening to all your moaning and prayers. All 6 billion at once. "Knows the name of all the stars." Yea, sure "he" does. Since you love to quote the Bible so much, it says that "God" is a SPIRIT. Well then, HOW can he have a "sex?"
Without having a body? Find me the explanation for that! It AINT there."Men" who WROTE the Bible, SAY it is a "HE." When even a child knows, NOTHING was ever born, WITHOUT A WOMAN. "Immaculate conception?"
Oh sure, I believe that one. Like Clinton said, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." Yea, I believe him too. The NT was written by the Piso family and NOT by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Those names were used because if the Piso's signed the NT, no one would believe it. They had to USE those names. Capeesh? Oh hell, what's the use? "Might as well be talking to the wall."
WTC7 is right. It is time Christianity reaps what it has sewn. After the Inquisition, and all the other atrocities caused "in the name of the Lord;" it is time for the pendulum to swing the other way. Or in Eastern religious terms, KARMA. It's "time to pay the piper." That's a good one about the JW's "OTE." They are hypocritical and don't even know it. Just like Christians who judge you and then preach, "Judge-not." Tom needs a lesson in world religion. AND Metaphysics. Read about the Sumerians tommy boy. Pat's right about how Christians of all kinds, try to spew their belief in "talking snakes" and "parting the waters of a sea, with the way of a staff, held by a deluded man. Belief in a "man" who walked on water; not realizing it is a parable of the "REFLEXION OF THE SUN," OFF THE WATER. Christianity is nothing more than SUN-worship changed to ANTHROPOMORPHIC belief. "They" never make the connection, because preachers LIE and MISLEAD people uneducated in world religions. All to many people "choose" the religion of their parents and never ask the right questions, therefore never getting the right answers. It's sad you know. If more people "practiced what they preach" this would be a much nicer world. And razor, try being nice to the Bible-totters, "they know not what they do." Poor "tom" can't make up his mind, if he is a "creationist" or an "evolutionist?" But that's how most Christian FUNDAMENTALISTS are. They just don't know what to think.
this post has a bit of humor in it but it also has a serious side. as a jw i assume you don't celebrate Halloween (a childhood friend was a jw and his family didn't celebrate so i assume jw as a whole don't please correct me if i am wrong). it is a christian/pagan celebration where they go door to door showing their faith so why do you not allow others to do to you once a year what you do regularly?
@Achems and Patrick
Sorry many of you do not like Bible quotes. But just so others know, Jesus and the 1st century Christians DID preach from "house to house". The preaching work is a requirement of ALL Christians. (Act 20:20, Matthew 24:14, Matthew 28:19)
Sorry Patrick, I wasn't trying to cram info down anyone's throat. I was trying to answer your question and Achems' in the same response. As long as Satan's world is allowed to continue, mankind will remain disunited and there's no real peace. (John 14:30, 1John 5:19, Revelation 13:2) I'll stop commenting from here on. Take care all.
You know Tom, you were doing good until you started quoting your JW bible. Turned me off completely, cant religee's talk about something in their own words instead of quoting bronze age scripture and myths?
Why are JW's so gung-ho about getting recruits, is there brownie points?
They are basically the only ones that go door to door except the Mormons.
Stop as Patrick said, ramming your religion down peoples throats! except I may have said it more harshly.
Ok Tom,If religion has given you peace and made you a stronger person(and not wants you to kill) then best wishes to you....but be leary of cramming religion down other peoples throats.There's a big differance between forced religion and ones' prefferanced religion
@Achems Razor and Patrick:
No. I didn't come from a mental institution. My parents are non-practicing Budhists, but who are more atheists than anything. So, I was an atheist (based on evolution I learnt in school). However, I always wondered about the origin of matter and the contradiction of the human desire to live on and the inevitability of death. I wondered: Why would evolution give us the desire to live on and the concept of eternity if we are meant to live only some 70 odd years? I also wondered about the "first cause" that brought matter and the universe into existence. Not only what caused it, but more importantly why. I deeply pondered over this for days.
Then, one morning, two Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on my door and they were able to explain it by quoting the Bible! I was skeptical at first, but eventually I learned more about life and human purpose on Earth as I studied on.
I feel sad that many people do not want to examine the Bible thoroughly and open-mindedly for themselves. He does not force anyone to worship Him, but he desires it. That's why He doesn't reveal his sovereignty now (that's why the last book of the Bible is called "Revelation" which means "apocalypse"). He want people to have the same choice as Adam and Eve. If He reveals His authority now, people will worship Him based on morbid fear...and He doesn't want that type of worship. He wants people to worship out of reverential fear and gratitude for the gift of life.
"Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)
“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
God's Kingdom (or government) will soon remove Satan's world system at Armageddon and usher in the millenial reign of Christ to restore mankind to perfect health and restore the Earth into a paradise similar to the Garden of Eden. This world under Satanic influence is hanging on it's last thread. When the preaching and Bible educating work is completed to God's satisfaction, the modern day "ark" will be slammed shut. Jesus compared the "last days" to Noah's day:
“Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be." (Matthew 24:36-39)
By any chance are you morman?
Where in the h5ll do lunatic, completely 1d10t1c l00nie people like you come from? from mental institutions?
"People who are dead still have hope"??? do you even realize how st00pid that sounds??
Go and crawl back into your hole! Arhggg!
People who are dead still have hope! "...there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Act 24:15)
Humans are endowed with "free will", the ability to make moral choices. God gave humans relative freedomm, not absolute freedom. When the first 2 humans chose to alienate or rebel (by taking the forbidden fruit which was a test of their obedience), they implicitly said "they didn't need God anymore". Hence, they grew old, got sick and die (sinned). We inherit the same defects and therefore, we also die. But this will soon change after Armageddon. "..It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step." (Jeremiah 10:23) After Satan's experiment of human self-rule is over, God will reclaim his rulership (which is the theme of the Bible). "And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; and you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace." (Psalm 37: 10,11) Yes, humans are meant to live forever on Earth, friends! “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice [the voice of Jesus] and come out.” (John 5:28, 29)
"Instead, it should be vice versa. An Atheist should be the one to keep silent forever... " Why? Because you realize you don't have any logical argument? So you can be free to indoctrinate little kids? Christians are the ones that for centuries have been forcing their superstition down peoples' throats but for some reason, you become hysterical and defensive when asked to prove your claims. Typical christian. Who cares what your holy book refers to? It's a collection of bronze-age myths written by a bunch of cattle-sacrificing primitives.
" This is what another person in here with a seemingly impaired mind wrote.Let me tell you Joe.You cannot compare yourself with Kara kittle in reasoning.Iam almost sure that if a 5year old and youself were brought to me for some intellectual diagnosis,you would come out embarassed.I have seen such people like you displaying one of the greatest cowardice on their death-beds requesting for Bibles and pastors to pray for them as they would not be sure of where they would be after breathing their last.Is that what you are waiting for?The one who created you planted eternity in you so you have no escape. You can make a fool of your self,be proud,arrogant,unleash all sorts of ignorant talk about Him but he will ,for sure,catch up with you one day when you drop dead.You have no way out. "
Blah, blah, blah, you'll be sorry, blah, blah,... repent or perish,... blah blah blah, spiritual things cannot be understood by a mere carnal mind, blah, blah,... you have no escape, blaaah, blaaah,... he will ,for sure,catch up with you one day,... yabba yabba, blab, blab, .......
Nothing condescending or patronizing about christians is there?
Ben, - stop ranting like a psychopath.
Oh, and another thing, - Jesus is as dead as a door nail. Get over it.
“Atheism is defined by Merriam-Webster as “the lack of belief in a deity”.
No it's not. It's not defined as a lack of anything. It's an affirmation of disbelief in a supernatural deity.
Also, I've written several articles on the derivative morality from an exclusively naturalistic view of the world. These standards of ethical behavior have as much "a priori goodness" as the Ten Commandments.
Bye the way,i love you all in here in Jesus Name!The way i wish you could all tets of His goodness!
Hilarious! at least you made me laugh with your big load of d0ggy p00.
When all else fails revert to "Ad Hominem" attacks right? As most religee's do.
Actually your right, I can structure sentences fairly well in the English language, considering it is my second language.
Anyway you are a funny dude. Did not know there was religious comedy.
Kara Kittle,Lisa & Tom --Cheers!!
@ the rest
At this point,iam shocked at some of the comments the so-called atheists posted.Consider this statement,
"Us atheist’s do not have to prove a thing. The burden of proof is always logically on the person who is asserting, namely you! So prove it, or forever be silenced"! referring to Kara Kittle.
Reading such a note makes me conclude that some people never at all stepped in any classroom but can at least structure a few sentences in english.
Instead, it should be vice versa. An Atheist should be the one to keep silent forever since ,after all, he is just an ignorant chap who has no capacity to reason and use common sense later on make any intelligent decision capable of being made by a 5 year old.At least a 5 yr old will answer ,my mother and father created me,when asked as who created him/her.But what will an atheist reply to the question? "I evolved from an amphibian" will be the answer. Isnt this utter nonsense?
This is what the Holy Bible refers to Achens razor in Psalms 14: 1," A fool says in his heart,there is no God". And let me add.Whoever is in here and doesnot believe there a Supreme God who created him/her is therefore a fool! Period! These are not my words and i donot care whether you call it a fairy tales book or whatever!
"Your reasoning belongs to the mentality of a five-year-old"
This is what another person in here with a seemingly impaired mind wrote.Let me tell you Joe.You cannot compare yourself with Kara kittle in reasoning.Iam almost sure that if a 5year old and youself were brought to me for some intellectual diagnosis,you would come out embarassed.I have seen such people like you displaying one of the greatest cowardice on their death-beds requesting for Bibles and pastors to pray for them as they would not be sure of where they would be after breathing their last.Is that what you are waiting for?The one who created you planted eternity in you so you have no escape. You can make a fool of your self,be proud,arrogant,unleash all sorts of ignorant talk about Him but he will ,for sure,catch up with you one day when you drop dead.You have no way out.
"........ but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way." These were the words of our Lord Jesus in Luke 13:3 telling the Pharesees of the consequences of their unbelief in Him and for their arrogancy. I see the same happening to almost all commentators in here due to your unbelief in Jesus save for a few.
Since our level of understanding about the things of God is different,and since spiritual things cannot be understood by a mere carnal mind,non of you here have the capacity to discuss them UNLESS you believe in Jesus as one who can Save lives for eternity.This happened to Jesus at the height of His Ministry when an educated scholar by the names of Nicodemus came to Him at night desiring to know how he can enter into the Kingdom of God. In John 3:3,Jesus told him that unless a man is born again,he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.That which is born of the spirit is spirit while that born of the physical remains physical. Iam a physical being who became born again by accepting Jesus as a Savior and made my eyes see. So how can a blind person lead a person with sight to a right place? Except for a few people here who are defending and believing in Jesus,the rest are disqualified to discuss about what Jesus begun because you donot know what you are talking about.
You are only waiting to ask for Bibles and a pastor to pray for you in your corwadice as you perish without Him.These are not my words,Read them in Luke 13:3. Stop Joking with someone who defeated the greatest enigma of mankind-DEATH.I donot care whether He was a cult leader or teamed up with prostitutes.All i know is that one day the world will once again witness the Greatest spectacle ever to rock this world when all the dead in the graves will hear his voice and come forth including the greatest imposter of all time- Mohammed -the father of all terrorists including the infamous Jews that crucified Him.
Don't need or want a candid study of the bible, especially JW bibles.
Instead of taking the bibles literally the first thing that apologetics say it was "SYMBOLIC" and then make up there own scenarios. Especially of the atrocities that are prevalent in the OT.
Anyway, am cutting of this discussion, leads nowhere.
Achems Razor, the entire Bible cannot be quoted on a short message board. If you truly want a candid study of the Bible, contact watchtower.org. As for your Revelations comment, the vision was SYMBOLIC! It was a vision of the future given to the apostle John and it was written in symbolic language same as the beasts described in the book of Daniel. There's a parallel.
I see, quoting from your book of fairy tales. I should say, cherry picking?
Web definition of a fairy tale:
1-A fanciful tale of legendary deeds and creatures, usually intended for children.
2-A fictitious, highly fanciful story or explanation.
As in Revelations 12: 1-9...Will only write the first part..."A great red Dragon? having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his head?"
There is much more of course, even gets more weirder.
It is apparent you are only cherry picking out parts to suit your fancy, or could be you hardly know anything at all? I betcha, I an Atheist, know more about the bible/bibles than you, I mean the "real atrocious stuff" that would make the hair on the back of your neck stand up. Hmmm?
The world is in such a mess and confusion is because many people do not really know the "truth" that Jesus spoke about. Jesus said: "The truth will set you free." - John 8:32
The mass world population do not know the meaning of life, why we exist on Earth, and that Jehovah God has allowed Satan to temporarily rule this world, and that humans are given an opportunity to regain everlasting life on Earth (the same gift that was given to the first two human beings, which they threw away for themselves and their offsprings). God will soon reclaim his rulership over mankind and usher in a new kingdom (government) that will bring peace to all mankind after Satan has finished his experiment of human self-rule. (read Daniel 2:44)
"And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." - Matthew 24:14 And then afterwards:
"The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it." - Psalm 37:29
This documentary should have included the most Satanic cult of them all: Islam.
Kara, exactly what part of 'prove it' do you not understand? Can you prove that magic rabbits on Mars don't exist? No. So what? That means they do exist? Your reasoning belongs to the mentality of a five-year-old. "You can't prove that god doesn't exist. So there!" The inability to prove something does not exist is not a basis upon which to claim that it does exist. Why is it that christians stubbornly insist on making complete idiots out of themselves in this way?
The world is becoming increasingly sick and tired of the same old patronizing moral judgment spewed by your cult. Religion is a fraud and a scam. As with any lie, religion is perfectly fair game for scorn and ridicule. Don't like it? Welcome to the real world. Get used to it. Ironically, the christian cult is lightning quick to judge anyone they don't like but it becomes hysterically defensive when 'attacked' with a few perfectly rational questions. Here's an idea for you - walk into a major science forum and claim you have an entirely new theory of quantum mechanics. When asked to explain, cite scripture and stand in contemptuous indignation and cry "You can't prove it doesn't exist." You will be laughed out of the building. So, why should religion be held to a special standard? Because otherwise it is deemed 'offensive to peoples' religious sensibilities'?
Believe in the supernatural if it makes you happy but don't pretend to be offended when your superstitious propaganda is met with ridicule.
Now you see the quandry that has developed. People should be able to justify their belief, whether that belief is in something or not in something. Too many people say they are something without really fully realizing what the term means, or even investigating anything about it, and then take the term as their own identity.
Unfortunately, it makes them oftentimes so bigotted against another side, they won't admit they are. And yet they demand tolerance and acceptance from the very side they deny those same things from.
You can say "I am not atheist, I am not agnostic either". That is ok for you to say. The only thing we ask is this, as a Christian, and as a citizen of this planet, I have the same right to expect tolerance shown toward my faith.
Too bad that many people who go on these sites feel a need to bash anything that is not like them. That includes the atheists and agnostics. But all we hear is a recycled history of human endeavor. They blame Christians for what happened 1,000 years ago. They never blame the individuals who did it.
Christianity is not a religion of hatred, in fact, Jesus said "love your enemies, do good to those who hurt you." That is the message we are taught.
People seem to present Christians as never having any problems such as deaths of loved children, never having poverty and certainly Christians never themselves face persecution, abuse, violence, murder, or anything else that happens to the human race. And that is the sad thing.
I have suffered many things in my life. As so many people have also. But to negate faith because of historical actions by mad people, is just simply wrong. It denies my fundamental right to have faith. And when any person denies another person a faith, that person is prejudiced.
And the constant need for some people to jump on anything religious and start swinging the "reason axe" onto the necks of any person that claims faith, is what other people feel compelled to stop.
In this country we have the right of religious expression. Certainly I might not agree with other other religions (agreement is not the same thing as intolerance), but I have to defend their right to have that expression. What has happened here on this site, is some people who are indeed atheist, attacked religions and faiths and then stomped and snorted when they were rebutted. They demanded evidence. They would not listen to anything, at the same time accusing others of not listening to them.
The original discussion is "dangerous cults". The narrator on this episode said that Christianity is a cult. They claimed Jesus was a cult leader.
I have heard people say for a long time that Jesus was merely a revolutionary leader. I wanted to know where they got that information from, because nothing in the Bible teaches that. What did Jesus teach that was revolutionary? Absolutely nothing new. In fact, all of His teachings, He referred back to the older Scriptures.
And the accusation that scripture is corrupt, the Dead Sea Scrolls have a scroll that is verbatim...the Book of Isaiah. And scientific methods have been used to determine the age of them. Interesting how people accept the science of aging dinosaur bones, but not accepting the same science that dates anything religious.
Anyway, this long post WTC7, is my attempt to let you know that yes, I hear you. And I have not called you names, nor have I pushed any scripture onto you.
At least you have very civilly stated your belief. Thank you for that. I appreciate your last comment.
I am not an atheist.
Why? Because by the acceptance of the very term I would admit that I don't believe in something that exists. By accepting the term, I would admit that I see my self as opposed to something I don't believe exists. That doesn't make any sense.
I am not an agnostic either (at least as far as it is understood in relation to contemplation of what people call god) for the same reasons.
The problem is really not with Christianity, but against those people who claim to be Christian and defy the very edicts the Bible proclaims as virtuous.
The vindictive God of the Bible that Richard Dawkins hawks as being those very things that I hear on these posts. Yet Richard Dawkins has not discovered a new philosophy.
Jean-Paul Sartre has some very interesting quotes:
No finite point has meaning without an infinite reference point.
That God does not exist, I cannot deny, That my whole being cries out for God I cannot forget.
Evil is the product of the ability of humans to make abstract that which is concrete.
What infinite? Even the universe itself is finite, meaning it has a beginning and an end. He cannot forget God, yet he wishes God to not exist.
And the most interesting is, something must be concrete. The laws of God are concrete.
The universe, according to evolutionists, is that the universe itself was roiled in chaos. Then by chance, the universe set itself into perfect harmony with itself, down to the most minute elements.
But yet, it is making abstract those things which are concrete that brings evil into the world. God said "thou shalt not kill". People then said, "God is now an abstract idea, therefore the commandments are become abstract." The disbelief in God is not new, even the Bible tells us that.
That is what happened within cults, those people took a concrete, and made it abstract, to fit within their own worldview. The same as philosophy and science does.
Sartre also says
God is nothing. God is the the solitude of man.
So how can God be nothing, and yet something at the same time that can be desired to be forgotten?
I have to ask this though, within the grand scheme of Karl Marx ideology of Communism through atheism, did it work? Did atheism bring to those people any measure of relief? Did it help them? Was it beneficial by any means? Was religion really the opiate of the masses? Because it seems to me that Communism through atheism does not work, people are subjected to failure and greater poverty comes. The Marxist state of the USSR was a complete failure.
So many of you are not atheist, but agnostic. Good for you. The problem many of you have is this, you want to deny Christianity. It is Christianity that you object to. And that is nothing new, you have not stumbled across any new ideas, even 2,000 years ago that was still the same case.
I am a Christian. I did not inundate you with many scriptures, in fact, I did not even post one at all. But the very nature of your claim of an abstract God, you pounce on anything that proclaims faith. Then you demand proof. What rule is given that I must provide it?
That rule is this: Belittle them at any cost by screaming reason, intellect, intelligence until you are blue in the face, demand proof and when they go against your argument, do it again and again and again until they are weary and give up.
That is not winning, this is not a debate, and you must be as tolerant of us as you demand us to be of you. I have not seen one scripture thrown at you, yet I read only what your philosophers have made you believe.
The proof of God's existence is in your very denial of Him.
Kara Kittle....you're my hero. Keep going girl.
The problem with Christianity isnt that you have to prove to others that God exists, if you are so inclined. Everyone who believes in something greater than knowledge or concepts could convey is left with the burden of proof. The issue is that you have to convince non-Christians you are not completely nutters for believing that God impregnated a woman, Jesus rose from the dead, and all of the other things that you wouldn't actually believe if you were told had just happened down the street (and have never in recorded history been known to happen).
I think this stems from literal interpretations and a dark history of political manipulation of religious texts and teachings ... during a pre-rational era when humans were much more fixated on myth and magic. The bible is just not that great a spiritual text for our modern age, and we are incredibly disconnected from the society that threw Jesus into such a stark relief. For instance, no one threatend to kill me today for not knowing latin, and I have never been forced to walk a mile in the desert (let alone two).
I think if anything Christians should be proud of when Christianity was just a tiny cult of the followers of Christ, gathered around a spiritual teacher with the cojones to rebel against some of the abysmal societal norms and interpretations of God in those times.
Besides, I agree with Epicurus that christianity certainly began its existence as a cult, on the basis of some of the existing definitions of it.
CULT - a system of religious or spiritual beliefs, especially an informal and transient belief system regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false, and directed by a charismatic, authoritarian leader;
CULT - a group of people who share religious or spiritual beliefs, especially beliefs regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false.
It is quite clear that at its beginnings, christianity was regarded by the prevailing religious beliefs of the time as 'misguided', 'false' or 'extremist'.
However, if one takes the Oxford English Dictionary definition of the 'cult' into consideration, then any religion as such or religious group could be considered a cult:
- "worship; reverential homage rendered to a divine being or beings"
- "a particular form or system of religious worship; especially in reference to its external rites and ceremonies"
- devotion or homage to a particular person or thing"
The word 'cult' comes from Latin and its original meaning is 'worship'.
@ Kara Kittle,
I should have known better than to engage in futile conversation about religion with a devout christian. You don't even make an attempt to read what is written, such is your attitude and that much respect you have for others.
You mix what Epicurus, Achems Razor and me have written in three separate posts (I admire Achems and wish I knew as much as he does about some things, but I can't take credit for what he says). You don't even have the ability to distinguish what different people have said and yet you challenge someone into a philosophical discussion about the existence of god?
But first let's clarify what is it that you would like me to prove or disprove the existence of?
I have already told you in my previous post that we and everything else around us is made of the same 'material', as the science has already proven, and that I believe there exists some kind of connection, which we cannot observe with our eyes, between us and everything else that there is. Hence, I don't see the world from an exclusively materialistic point of view, I think there is more to it.
But I do not believe in god as you perceive it. Because I am absolutely certain that the murderous, vindictive, impotent creature from the Old Testament, which you call Jehovah, cannot be any god.
Hence, I admit that there is more in this Universe than meets the eye, but it doesn't determine our lives as you believe it, it is neutral in terms of human understanding of good and bad, and is certainly much more subtle than Jehovah.