Finger of God
Hundreds raised from the dead. Manna appearing in the Pentagon. Gemstones falling from the sky. Teenagers healing perfect strangers on the street.
This isn't old time religion. This is a new beginning. A spiritual revolution. This is the Finger of God. Prepare to go on a dizzying journey around the world - from the streets of Northern California to the mud huts of Africa.
From the underground church in China to the Gypsies in Eastern Europe - you will be challenged and encouraged by the extraordinary things God is doing in our world today.
Born out of filmmaker Darren Wilson's personal journey of two years and hundreds of hours of footage, Finger of God will show you a world you never knew existed. A world of hope and courage. A world where God's fingerprints are found in the unlikeliest of places.
My Son went on a mission trip to Mexico and personally witnessed a healing of a guy who was deaf and a kid who had a club foot. It was real. Most of you unbelievers put too many limits on what God can do. I was blessed by the ministry going on in the documentary. But, I know that most churches never get to the miracles and wonders of God. They are too busy editing the Bible and not putting any effort to witness the real stuff. I have been to a Benny Hinn service in San Antonio about 25 years ago and witnessed hundreds of people slain in the Spirit. I didn't believe that stuff either until I saw it. I vowed that nothing was going to knock me down, but I felt it. It's not hype. I feel sorry for all who have a hard heart and a closed mind.
Hearsay evidence..... Inadmissible in a court of law; and why do you suppose that is? Because it's unreliable. I'm sure you've "felt" something. What it was, who can say?...., including you. It could have been any of a dozen different chemical released into the blood that engender human emotions. Are you suggesting that I worship your adrenal gland? Yeechhh... For your son in Mexico, it could have been one of the hallucinogens released by various natural herbs and fungi. Do you know that it wasn't? Does he? Very presumptuous and arrogant of people to think that if someone is not persuaded by flimsy evidence, that their minds are closed.
Jeffrey Levine.
Court of law? PHAHAHAHAHAHAHA🤣 Two totally different worlds. Faith. And doubt. PHAHAHAHAHA🤣
Completely irrelevant to the world of Spirit. Until the Restoration of All things. In time you will see. Lol You should judge yourself😂
This movie saved me.After watching it, I instantly felt the holy spirit. Thank you to the creator and thank God for having me stumble on to this movie on a regular thursday afternoon. Praise God
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Do you realize if we had something tangible that Christ himself touched over 2000 years ago that we could have the fingerprint of the Creator of the universe/world? That's amazing to me to think that God once had a fingerprint here on earth! Unfathomable!
can someone tell me if any miracles actually happen in the doc ?... I mean miracles, not a hunched over woman can now stand up straight. If so MAYBE I'll watch it.
Just watch it. Watch them all. Amazing!!
some serious PR exercise albeit mouthing the same old same old. Let's call it... "Starwars 7: The Religious Strikes Back. "
everything is TRUE
god needs to get his tush over to Twitter and get himself a verified account with a little blue tick beside his name..... then and only then.... maybe..... I'd try to believe in him.. just a teensy bit.
Ok guys here is the question. If there is no God and Christ was not the incarnate God then no harm no foul! Believe what you want and do what you want no harm!but if He is real(and He so is!) then your actions are going to lead you to eternal burning and seperation from God! Think of how bad it hurts when u bang ur finger with that hammer. Now multiply it expedentially add fire and repeat! LOGIC at least dictates the safe bet. I mean what do u lose by following Christ?? Really? Whats the down side? I dont get it!!
Bill
what you just stated is "pascal's wager" are you familiar with it? now i will not go into all the arguments just a couple. couldn't the same argument be made for all religions? and if so aren't we back to the start where someone who does not believe needs actual demonstrable proof? also if we just believe just to be safe wouldn't god know that ?
over the edge, fortunately, your argument does not hold up.
1. Not all the religions believe in hell.
2. Only one has a God that has come down from heaven, suffered for us, died and became a perfect sacrifice for our sins. He is the only God that forgives all of our sins if only we believe in Him. He does not ask for anything else. If you have heard anything different, it is not the Gospel (Good News.)
first off you have to prove that your god exists and these claims actually happened.
I don't have to do anything. I don't try to be God. I can speak about what He has done in my life and how He has changed me. If it touches your heart and consoles you and gives you hope - great! If not, there's nothing I can do about it. But think about this - He still loves you whether you believe in Him or not. And I love you and I will pray for you. Please know that by saying this I don't want to convince you or change you, just to tell you that you're loved for exactly who you are :) I pray for supernatural peace and joy in your life, in Jesus' name :)
without knowing what god you are following specifically i cannot comment. but the gods i have looked into , if they are real. i do not wish prayers for me to many of them as they are evil murderous hateful gods and even if real i choose not to be associated with their hateful homophobic,sexist, repulsive message
I'm sorry you received such message from other followers. Just because they're misguided and hateful (for which God forgives them as much as any of us.) I know it's hard to wrap your mind around it. It took me a long time. Like I said in my comment earlier there's only one true God that came to die for us, so that we could be free of condemnation and heaviness of this world. He is Jesus Christ.
I'm not here to convince you or to ask you to follow. I'm not God. I'm here to tell you that when that difficult time arises in your life and it seems like nothing is going right and no one understands, there is one God that knows you and loves you and wants to help if you choose to accept it, Jesus. I'm sorry for your hurt.
Bill, Please don't threaten people with hell. All that produces is fearful religious people. Really. It is God's love that transforms lives!
bla bla bla bla, show me a 4000 year old mummy come to life now that's a f...king miracle.
Many of the comments are very interesting, for those who do not believe in the one true God, the ones who want proof. We have proof ,and when you give yourself to him and have just a little faith he will show you proof that will change your life. Salvation is a free gift, paid by blood. Sometimes God will show his proof to the unsaved so they may marvel and believe, but most times he uses the saved to lead others to salvation. Go get the smartest man in the world, give him a little each element in the universe, o heck lets say he lives a thousand years. Can he make life? Will his globe of goo breath , no my friend it will not.Nothing lives until God gives it life.God bless you all. This old redneck from Alabama is going to bed.
I have watched this film, along with Furious Love, so many times and I can't wait to watch it and share it with my friends again and again. There is so much love and passion flowing from these individuals. If you don't see truth here, you can't deny that these are people caring for and helping people in ways that are so wonderful! These people want their lives to look like that of Jesus -- they seek His heart and look to bring Heaven to Earth. You might not believe it, but at least you've come to watch it. If you finished the film, thank you for having an open mind!
I've read some of the comments and it seems that many are looking for proof but a well-read individual would know that proof isn't really God's thing. If you are familiar with the life of Jesus you'll know that he refused to prove himself to Satan when they were out in the wilderness. He didn't wish to prove anything to us, but only to show a loving God and to reveal a new life full of grace, not one of law. He moved to take us out of the Old Covenant into a new one full of grace. He wanted to heal and restore people to their true selves -- healthy, loving, joyous beings! If you're looking for proof just so you can try to disprove, you might (continue to) be disappointed.
I heard a man once say that either Jesus was the greatest deceiver that ever lived or he was the man he said he was. Regardless, it seems that He has had such an impact on the world that as responsible, intelligent individuals it is our duty to study this figure and decide for ourselves. Which would mean reading the Old and New Testament, reading about His life and watching films like this. Talk to people, go to some churches and see what's happening in our communities. This film shows that God wants to surprise us and make our lives richer. For the religious skeptics out there: we've become too complacent and comfortable with our views of who he is and I think he wants to challenge our lazy, doctrinal thinking! So many are quick to confine God into a small, religious box that makes sense -- but an unfathomable creator does unfathomable things. We're not supposed to understand -- it would be arrogant to think that we could. We are only supposed to live a life of expectancy, one of love and honesty -- with our eyes, and hearts, open to the possibilities. To seek an intimacy with Him so that we may come to understand His heart and His ways. He wants to reward us in our faith, and bring glorious gifts from Heaven down for us to enjoy.
Not all Christians are perfect. Not all of them are great ambassadors for God, and not all of them should be trusted, but Darren Wilson is an honest man who is painting a picture of a God that is real. These films and the incredible people in them are graceful, generous and loving -- people who are interesting to learn about. It is okay to be unsure, and it is certainly okay to be frustrated. But there's no need for anger, judgmental criticism, or ignorance. Be discerning, ask questions, and be open minded. Don't believe everything that everyone tells you, but be smart and seek the truth. Seek and you shall find!
You are all awesome and it's obvious that there are many intelligent individuals posting great points and asking great questions. Good luck with your searching and keep loving!
“The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.”
-- Albert Einstein.
Dude, you are awesome.
Is there not one person that can see and appreciate this documentary as a display of the amazing love of God!? How can some people be so blind and deceived!?
The message has always been very clear, maybe we've grown so cynical to it. We are loved. Simply love in turn. It matters not which religion you hail from, the message is always the same. Love each other, help each other. Evil is a condition of the soul, a soul that doesn't allow Love deteriorates. Love is the best love affair you could ever have with yourself. The selflessness that comes with it defines us. It's the legacy we shall leave on earth. arguing amongst yourselves whose religion triumphs whose will not make the problems dissapear. Think of it as the famous hindu teaching of the blind men adn the elephant. one took a trunk, one the leg, one the tail and they all believed that they had the actual full story. I see religions like this. It's like a mountain road, all paths lead to the top, we all know God is there instinctively. Won't an atheist cry out to God when they fear death? it's the truth that our soul knows, simply accept it. It won't make you less of a person. Again with the great story of the blind men and the elephant. Everyone on earth has their own version of God, of Spirituality. No one can honestly say, I see the whole elephant! There is a God. That's what I believe. If we stopped bickering amongst ourselves, we'd actually take note of our surroundings. It's the actions we take. Was it God or human greed that spawned wars on this earth? is it not our bickering? Have we forgotten what wears down a soul? what depresses us? what makes us fear? Can we not just stand together on this one issue and accept that we are loved? Is it so hard to humble oneself on such a level? The world is a global community, we should help one another, love one another, however cliched some of you might think it is, just take that very first step. smile at a stranger, help someone who crosses your path with a problem. does it not uplift you? Do you not feel lighter? Are some of your doubts not assuaged? it doesn't matter whether you're a christian, a catholic, a muslim, a buddhist. you're all just taking differnt roads towards the same destination. God I believe, would never condemn a righteous person, no matter which route you use to seek him out. This religious debate is from a man. Please quit quarreling, it takes us nowhere. Just Love and change the World for the better.
No Carol, just no. Is it really that far fetched and difficult for you to admit that some of us really don't believe in your magical entity creator? Really? No, all atheists don't cry for god in their final moments. The ones who do are simply afraid of losing this one life we have. A time of great stress causes people to act in many odd ways. For me personally, it's not a matter of "choosing" to believe or not. When told of the reasons that people use for their belief in a magically created universe, I simply can not believe. My mind will not allow me to honestly believe in something that does not manifest in any meaningful way. I am always willing to listen with an open mind as to what swayed other people. But it's been a long time since I heard anything novel. The best I can say is that either your god does not exist, or it is functionally equivalent to that which does not exist.
Oh, but I'm not asking you to believe. Not once did I say that. I simply talked about Love. Remember, I also rooted for all other religions. The last thing I'd want would be a quarrel. Each of us has their own beliefs and I vehemently believe that we should be entitled to them.
Magicaly created? Evolution teaches things came into existence magically. out of thin air. There was no reason for the universe and it's complexity to come into being. According to science it just happened. Evolution is the theory that the universe came to existence by accident without a creator. Is that more reasonable then having one? It's like finding a watch on the beach and saying that over millions and billions and trillions of years. A watch was able to come into existence. (and even watches don't have life in them. They can't think. How much more complex are we as living things. and even more so being human!) Here are some things to think about: (Not my questions...but good think about) We know the universe is governed by several fundamental physical laws, such as electromagnetic forces, gravity, conservation of mass and energy, etc. The activities of our universe depend upon these principles like a computer program depends upon the existence of computer hardware with an instruction set. How reasonable is it to say that these great controlling principles developed by accident?The continued existence (the reproduction) of a cell requires both DNA (the "plan") and RNA (the "copy mechanism"), both of which are tremendously complex. How reasonable is it to believe that these two co-dependent necessities came into existence by chance at exactly the same time? Is it more reasonable to say a creator created these things, or to say that they just some how came to be this way by accident. or is it more reasonable to say I don't know. Evolutionists claim that life formed from non-life (dead chemicals), so-called "abiogenesis", even though it is a biological law ("biogenesis") that life only comes from life. The probability of the simplest imaginable replicating system forming by itself from non-living chemicals has been calculated to be so very small as to be essentially zero - much less than one chance in the number of electron-sized particles that could fit in the entire visible universe! Given these odds, is it reasonable to believe that life formed itself? We know and appreciate the tremendous amount of intelligent design and planning that went into landing a man on the moon. Yet the complexity of this task pales in comparison to the complexity of even the simplest life form. How reasonable is it to believe that purely natural processes, with no designer, no intelligence, and no plan, produced a human being.
I think you would have to believe in Magic if you think this universe wasn't created by an Intelligent being.
Also in the beginning i said "according to science". Which is wrong. sorry. I meant according to some theory.
Hey, couple of mistakes you made;
Evolution does not deal with the origin of the universe, it deals with the origin and development of organisms. You can be an evolutionist and believe in God or you can be a non-believer and not believe that the universe comes from 'nothing'.
You also use Paley's watch argument but the reason that we recognize that a watch is designed is that we have only ever seen and experienced watches that have been designed and none that have occurred by accident.
*Rant begins*
However assuming that you believe that things in nature have been designed, take for instance the eye, you do not seem to recognize that the human eye while being very useful is positively crap in comparison to other animals; the clarity of the hawk's eye, the ability of the squid's eye to see practically all around it, the cat's eye for night vision etc. Even ignoring the eyes of other creatures, why would God design the human as it is but neglect to give it the power to see radiation, carbon monoxide and other very deadly things for humans. We also have the appendix. The appendix sucks at being useful and tends to lead to appendicitis from time to time.
However these things can be reasonably explained by natural selection (please have a good look at it in Darwin's 'On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection of the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life'.
Please note that I am not trying to belittle you, I don't think you're stupid so please don't claim that, I hate it when people do! :P Just remember that if you do hold the belief of intelligent design that you should educate yourself on the arguments that oppose and look at the evidence available and make up your mind from there, I assume that you have either been misled on evolution or have not researched it yourself. If you still believe in intelligent design afterwards that's fine but please don't assume the facts on a theory and continue on in ignorance, there's nothing to be gained from doing so.
So from an agnostic studying Theology, good day and good learning! :)
hey you have a reasonable argument but you forgot one thing...that is what we were initially created to be. Initially we were created to be like Him, in His image, perfect beings. However, He also gave us a choice and knowing full well that we would sin. That sin has made us who we are today and fully imperfect beings with sucky eyes and failing body parts. But just because other creatures may have certain features that are better than our does not mean that we were not created. For we were created to be the care takers of this world and that is just starting to be know by the world as a whole now and dont say that is evolution...
For even if evolution were true all things in this universe lead to God...even evolution. For if evolution were possible eventually beings would evolve into a single being of consciousness that has full control of the universe and far beyond what we could ever fathom. But once that happens then that destroys evolution because God doesnt need evolution and evolution never existed because God is the beginning and the end. I have researched and researched evolution and found it very possible. But God used that to show me the truth...that everything in this universe is created by Him we can never think beyond his capability. Everything ever created by man has been inspired by God but has been twisted by our sinful minds. For God is infinite. His understanding and wisdom is far more that we can comprehend. His love for us, his creation, is more than we could ever imagine. His voice is calling out for each and every one of us.
"He also gave us a choice and knowing full well that we would sin"??
Need I say more? you have no idea what you are talking about! neither do I! One thing you first have to prove that there is a god. You made a claim for an infinite god.
And we were not created to be the care takers of this world, and if we are not careful we will kill our beautiful planet.
if you have no idea what your talking about then your claim is meaningless haha
I made no claims, how old are you? you sound like a kid, a child. Therefore not interested in conversing with you.
"The number of intermediate varieties which have formerly existed on Earth must be truly enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory." -Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species
It's not just about feeling warm and fuzzy inside, and letting love in your heart. All roads don't lead to heaven. Your are right that we should love and care for each other, but to show that with the right motives, those actions must come from a heart that has been changed by the love of God. And as far as love goes, it's the love of God that changes the human heart - not earthly human love. But to receive that kind of love, you must be saved by God's grace through faith! Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father except through me." If you read your bible, and believe it for what it is, you would know the truth.
@Caleb Hall:
There is no love from your gods, don't cherry pick, read the old testament, your god hates everyone!
Funny religee's and their fairy-tales.
@Achems_Razor
why do your posts (and epic's and vlatko's) not appear in the recent comments?
Vlatko had explained before, the moderation system does not allow for that.
@Caleb Hall
"Would you rather believe you came from a monkey " really? who states that? please show us more of your ignorance. i don't "choose " to believe anything but i do accept the facts. please show me empirical proof for your assertions. also the fact that you don't understand the big bang does not make it wrong and on the same point if things can't come out of thin air where did your god come from? again do you have any actual proof? even if evolution is wrong and the big bang is wrong that doesn't make your god right.
This isn't about an F5 tornando! You're gonna rue the day for this! I'm talkin' imminent rueage!
How sad that so many people can be duped into believing this mess!
READ YOUR BIBLES!!! The Bible clearly states "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" 2 Thessalonians 2: 3
There is no revival. There is no "outpouring". There is none of this. Just apostasy. Anyone saying this is of God is not reading their Bibles. They're just acting on their emotions and believing a lie.
Jesus said "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Luke 18: 8.
It was a rhetorical question. The answer is "NO".
Yet these people tell you that things are getting better and God is "pouring out His spirit".
NO! Not according to His own Word.
People are believing a lie and He is giving them what they want; a show, an experience, an emotional jolt - they want anything but God Himself.
This is horrible!
Amen, brother. God does not prove Himself. Miracles happen for a reason.
Why was Lazarus raised from the dead?
That Christ may illustrate that death is comparable to sleep, and that God can/will awake us from this sleep.
Why were many healed by Christ?
Because He loved them and wanted to demonstrate the compassion God has for them.
Why were the Apostles given the gift of tongues at Pentecost?
That their message would know no boundaries, and that those listening would believe in Christ (not God). For the "unbelievers" were indeed Jews and already believed in God.
God's spirit does not fluctuate. It is an always-present gift ready to be received.
We are also warned that the "lawless one" will perform many signs and wonders. He will lead people from the truth, which is both a man (Jesus) and a teaching (the Word of God), and many will be deceived.
Check out 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 and the entire book of Revelation (especially studied with Daniel).
Will/can God still perform miracles through His people?
Absolutely! But only through those with exceeding faith and only to serve a divine purpose. Not in order to prove Himself
Why would God make gems fall from the sky?
Why would He make gold dust to fall on a man's head?
Why would He make mana to appear in the Pentagon?
Why would He needlessly raise people from the dead?
As Christians, we especially should not take everything at face value. We were called to serve the Creator of logic, truth, and love. He has no interest in appealing solely to our emotions, for our emotions betray us. Be a thinking Christian.
"Do not be conformed to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what's God will is–his good, pleasing, and perfect will." (Romans 12:2 NIV)
I just want someone to tell me please what is the point of this Doc???
Show to people what God is doing on the earth
When I was in my early teens I was watching an American film with my Grandma. One of the scenes was set in a strip club. As the scene commenced with dancing girls auctioning their assets, my Grandma turned to me, almost with total disbelief and said "only in America".
Since this early memory I have travelled to many countries, and have now concluded that this was quite a naive statement in that context.
Lately, I have found myself saying "only in America" in disbelief all too often when watching documentaries about religious movements in America. I can only describe some of what I've seen as crazy, or at the very least gross ignorance. America seems to have some serious religious problems that we wouldn't normally find in the Western World. It's very disheartening to see these sort of beliefs anywhere, let alone in the Western World.
Could a 'normal' American please give me their thoughts on why this fanaticism might be flourishing in the States.
Never mind the true Scotsman fallacy, by normal I intend to imply someone who isn't a fanatic of any sorts.
@raylennox80:
Don't know if there is such a thing as normal. I am Canadian, but even in our great Canadian north, we find a great number of religious fanatics pervading our society, spewing their happy-clappy joyous get down on your knees and say AMEN to their invisible gods.
The religee's seem to be in their slumber now, probably to cold here, but even on TDF seem to be slumbering, guess they can not handle us atheists. lol
I suppose why this Christian type of religion is flourishing in the states and elsewhere is that most people like a free ride, most people are lazy, they want all the wonder and maybe fear of leaving this earth taking care of by their invisible deities, the religious are hypnotized by their mass hallucinations of promises that are as spurious as the wind. No substance.
You're right, normal isn't a just word to use when describing human beings.
I've always had the opinion that decent education is the solution to many social problems. I would like to define 'decent education' as attending all levels of schooling excluding University.
I would think that with a basic understanding of science, history and perhaps even theology, one would at the very least start to play with the idea of God as mythological, especially in regards to the most commonly worshipped deities. The fact that some are drawn in by the illusions in this film, really disturbs me.
I wouldn't imagine that the U.S.A or North America as a whole would be lacking in education. Do you think that the North American population receives a 'decent education'?
@raylennox80:
Do not know firsthand except a person can look at the stats on global education, USA level is not so great.
You always hear about US being a dumbed-down nation, about the North American population receiving a decent education, they might, but seems some are to lazy to assimilate properly.
Agree, if everybody was more educated might dispel all the myths handed down since the bronze ages, and people could get on trying to escape from their class 0 civilization and progress to class 1 civilization, only two more to go till class 3 civilization and then shoot for the stars.
Because Modern Western Christianity (MWC) will do anything in the name of their God EXCEPT study the Bible they claim to believe.
This nonsense doesn't happen in third world countries unless it was introduced by westerners first.
The MWC doesn't know what it is to suffer for their faith so they "act up". If your life was in danger because of what you believed, you wouldn't draw attention to yourself or waste time on this smack. You would study your faith and you'd make sure you really believed in it and you would be very normal.
The MWC filters their faith through the lens of "self" (i.e How does this make me feel? What can I get out of this, etc). The focus is not on pleasing God but on self.
This is rubbish.
I wonder how one who truly studies his/her faith and lives it out in service to his/her god could possibly ever be considered "very normal" in a society who follows the latest trends as if they were their very gospel of truth. The "normal" person today is the one who thinks almost exclusively about him/herself and what the world owes him/her. If Christians truly believe in the Gospel and live their lives in complete service to the Father, then "normal" cannot be a word to describe them. The fact that they care more about being passtionate for their Lord than they do for the opinions of non-believers is testimony that they truly believe what they profess. I imagine it would appear quite radical if the youth in most any of our public schools chose to lie a mat on the floor and pray in the middle of the school day. In other countries, that is quite "normal." Which student would be the more faithful, the more pleasing to God? He who continues to pray as he believes, or he who stops praying in public because those around him think he isn't acting "normal." Perhaps a better topic to address is why we find it so important to "be very normal" in a world that is in such desperate need of more.
Hi I would like to know if I can order a copy of this documentary. and where can I go to get it. I would like to show it to the bible study we have in our house. I believe that it should be the new normal, to show the miracle working God that we serve. and to bring people hope and the truth.
I bet that your invisible deity even finds parking spots for believers vehicles right?
I bet that your invisible deity tells you to drink, fornicate, and helps you find vehicles of addictions that you believe will give you peace.
@adam:
I don't have any visible or invisible deities, therefore am as pure as the wind-driven snow.
Not like you religee's who live in constant fear of your invisible deities and always looking for redemption from all your real or imagined sins.
Ret*rded. An insult to God.
According to this video, with all the suffering in the world…God is performing miracles by blessing people with Gold Teeth and Gems.. Thats what God is doing to prove his existance and his majesty.
It's funny that the people who receive these Gold teeth clearly have tooth problems (look for yourself), this indicates that a likely scenario is that they have had dental work done recently. What would be a motive for people to do this you ask? The easy answer is to gain support for their church and receive donations, thats right, Money.
Ok, now the Gems…. Um they randomly appear in peoples hands? This isn't to difficult to figure out.. It's also funny that they "came from God" but are CUT exactly in the way that any Jeweler would cut a Gem Stone. What a coincidence that God has the Same geometric cuts that all stones are cut with. And I love the 'magical' qualities of these Gems, none of which are supported by any evidence or inspection.And the magical appearance in their hands…well thats pretty easy to figure out.
Well, what about the gold dust? Have you ever seen gold dust? It's very easy to sprinkle this stuff everywhere and it makes a real mess. I've used it for art projects and it is easy to dust anyone or anything with it be it on purpose or by accident. BTW it's not real gold, it's a lightweight foil/powder thats just gold color.
Then a woman feels "chills" after being prayed for. WOW! Chills? I've never heard of anyone getting chills especially when they believe whats happening is a powerful experience.
Oh then the man who's leg is "healed'. You will notice that he puts his crutches down and walks. Only he could walk before being 'healed', and when he does walk, he walks with an obvious Limp.
This is a video that everyone should watch, because it exposes the truth and ridiculousness of this type of practice. And it does it unknowingly to it'self because it is so easy to see the illogical conclusions that are being drawn by the people who themselves are making the documentary.
THANK YOU FOR MAKING THIS VIDEO!!!
Fact is this is all very true.. No matter if you believe in it or not its still happens around the world every single day.. How do i know? Ive done it. My friend had chest pain so i said pain leave now in jesus name . I kept praying and about 2 minutes later it was completely gone. He had problems breathing and he would touch his chest and it would hurt alot. 2 minutes later like i said he could breath very well, perfectly like before when he didnt have the chest pains. Miracles do happen. I had my own finger pain be healed too after i asked it to be healed in jesus name. Oh and btw those gems are perfectly cut like they said, no jewler in the world is able to do that. It might sound crazy but this stuff is very true. If only i was near your town i would show you that your pain would go away :). I suggest your over look your doubts .
Daniel Duperron
correlation does not equal causation. and the placebo effect has been proven. do you have any empirical evidence? anything that is proven to not have natural explanations? what about the same effects claimed by those who asked other gods for healing and pain relief? no offense but i don't know you and therefore without proof i refuse to trust you without testable repeatable proof. by the way if you are serious and can demonstrate this under controlled conditions call James Randy he has a million dollars for you. keep in mind every time he has tested similar claims they have failed
As a clever person just replied to you, if you can prove it, you'll get $1 MIll. You might have to do something like hurt James Randy's finger, then pray for it to get better, so he'll know it's true. Think of all of god's will you could make happen with that amount of money, surely he wouldn't deny such a sincere request for good. (remember it's god's will, not yours. No toys for yourself, unless that's what god wants)
But, before you do, you might want to learn what the term placebo is, and think about whether your prayers will work with James Randy still.
PS... I've had thumb pain, and mentioned 'jesus'. The pain did die down after a couple of minutes too as I recall. I hate it when I do that hammering in nails.
This "Flick" is a mantra for every con man under the sun. the perpetrator's are true scum bags. By the way, what "Manna" was, is unknown to this day, and only conjectured by scholars, to have been mushrooms.
wow. this is the kind of life that i want to live.. everyone should see this movie.. it completely changed the way i see Christianity and what it should look like ..
wow this stuff is powerful. Believe. Every knee shall bow and every mouth will confess that Jesus is Lord. Every knee and every mouth... every believer/every unbeliever will one day confess. Its a fact.
Ask God to help you see it. You have to find out for yourself.
Even IF (BIG IF) every knee bowed and every mouth "confessed" (weird word to use) it wouldn't make it true.
for they will be ever seeing but never perceiving. They will be ever hearing but never understanding...
Open your eyes to the miracle of love and the way of the spirit.
I think we must have read different Bibles. The god in the one I read was a self serving, narrow minded bully. When did this myth appear of a loving, giving and caring god?
When the PR team realized his image needed a revamp, because many people weren't quite so naive and fearful, anymore..?
I am in awe of his spin doctors
Love the little picture by the way, is that a banana in your pocket ...
Yes, I'm calling it that, lol.
I like his wicked smile! :))
Looks very pleased with himself, no need for him to comment on the 'My Penis' doc ;))
I've got a great reply to that, but it belongs over at The Perfect Vagina doc, lol.
His first appearance was about 2000 years ago. His second will be even more spectacular. I have been a Christian for over 25 years and have seen true, documented healings (blind eyes opened, deaf ears made to work, etc.) and know 5 people who used to be dead (run over by a semi truck and on the way to the morgue). Jesus Christ is still alive and still performing miracles and saving lives. Some of the things in the film are weird, but there are true miracles happening all over the world every day.
Holy mackerel! really? man, that is INCREDIBLE!
I mean, it's not credible! what's wrong with you?
How do you know it was christ who performed these "miracles"?
Could have been Satan, The great Deceiver!
If its from God, worship God!
If its not, worship God! And the evil spirit wont be able to stay!
If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? Matthew 12:26 Read your Bible!
I'm a christian but I don't believe what this people are doing. I think they are probably lying. I am religious but not gullible.
That's the problem, you are part of a religion but Jesus seeks a relationship. The Lord himself in John 14:12 "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father."
God is allowing us to set the captives free through the power of his perfect compassionate love. Not for the sake of fame or glory but for the sake of compassion and putting the beautiful man Jesus on display for all to see.
Oh wicked generation you want to know the acts of God but not god himself. I pray the the Holy Spirit may open your eyes to the spiritual revelation to the worth of God in a deeper measure. Matt 11:27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."
This is just silly. Gods new line in miracles, gold teeth and sparkly things!
I dont usually comment on these things but the ignorance trying to pass off as "fact" is just to much. First Darwin was NOT...thats right NOT a Christian. While there are Christians who accept the plausibility of evolution Darwin WAS agnostic.
Secondly evolution is NOT ...thats right NOT a fact. It is a scientific THEORY. Unless I missed it the "missing link" is still missing. And even that discovery would only advance the THEORY of evolution-not establish it as fact. Much of what the ignorant refer to as scientific "fact" is, if we are going to be factual, nothing more than theoretical.
(As an aside scripture does not expressly exclude evolution and the Biblical account of creation, when the "days" are simply taken as an arbitrary quantification of time, could be almost a description of evolutionary development).
You're right that evolution is a scientific theory, but the way you say it's a scientific theory is misleading. People seem to think that a theory is just an idea, when in fact a theory is a hypothesis that has been repeatedly supported by many different sources in many different ways. Gravity is a theory too, do you not believe in gravity? Theories are our best explanation on how something works, it's not just an idea that's been supported.
Another misconception you have is the idea of a missing link. This seems to come from the idea that there were chimps, then a half-chimp half-man, then a man, or some similar idea like three-quarter-chimp quarter-man, etc. etc. There are actually many different branches as chimps evolved into humans. It is not a straight line from chimp to human, there were homo sapiens living with other variations of homo genus that were not on the same branch as us, they split from our branch in the tree earlier in the process.
There have been thousands of transitional fossils found in the path from chimps to humans, and each time one is found people who don't believe in evolution ask where is the missing link between that one and the one before it. The fact is that only a small percent of dead organisms become fossilized, not only that but scientists need to find those fossils. Just because we will not find every last step in the evolution of chimp to man doesn't mean that we can't have enough evidence to conclude that it is true, and by any scientists standards we have been at that stage for a while now.
Recent genetic studies have shown that humans and chimps share less than 90% of their DNA. Many other animals share DNA but scientists don't claim we evolved from them. Evolution is a very bad theory. Most "scientists" continually worm and squirm their hypotheses to fit the findings. The book of Genesis reflects the fossil record better than the ever changing theory of evolution. In fact, most of what they call evolution is more like adaptation. You should use the scientific method properly, grasshopper.
@ Ted Low Jr.
The fact that we share DNA with other animals doesn't disprove evolution, it actually helps it. If all animals had a common ancestor, then we would expect animals to have similar DNA. The more DNA in common to more likely that we are closely related to them.
Also when I said that we evolved from chimps I misspeaking, we did not evolve directly from chimps but they are our closest living relative. We came from a common ancestor that was neither a modern day chimp or modern day human. Both species have been evolving since they split.
Would you rather believe you came from a monkey Sasquatch, or that you were made in the image of the God of the universe!? You can choose to believe the truth, or choose to believe lies. But creation testifies of the existence of an all powerful creator. And big bang theory? Where did the matter come from to make a "big bang" in the first place? That didn't just appear out of thin air! it had to come from somewhere therefore it had to be created!
@ Caleb Hall. I would rather believe the most likely cause of any event, whichever has the most evidence for it. If the evidence pointed to a god creating humans, I would like to believe that, but the evidence points to us evolving so that's what I choose to believe. Big Bang theory doesn't state where the matter came from, just that it happened. Science only explains to us what we can support or disprove. You see that the matter in the Big Bang had to come from somewhere, therefore it can from your god. Why not someone else's god? Why wasn't it Zeus who created the matter for the Big Bang? You are making a jump in logic with no evidence to support it, this is something that scientists and a lot of people like to stay away from. We don't try to claim something we cannot support. There are many different theories on where the matter for the Big Bang came from that have evidence in string theory or other theories to support it. Why do you choose to believe something that has no evidence to support it just because it sounds interesting to you? I think it would be interesting if aliens created the earth to experiment with life, but why would I believe that just because it's interesting to me?
could you list a few things for me which you know are a scientific FACT? please and thank you.
If people are really being healed in this world today why does it only happen to more VAGUE conditions than amputees. If for instance a celebrity who didn't have an arm, and this was known to alot of people, suddenly had an arm tomorrow this would be quite spectacular.
Instead the more VAGUE a condition is the easier it is to CLAIM miracle.
Fraudsters use vagueness to their advantage. People use it for self-deception. They have since time immemorial.
Poets also use vagueness to twist the meaning of a word halfway through a sentence giving it emotional meanings the word doesn't really have.
Religious texts use vagueness and ambigouity, in poetry or not, claiming poor communication skills as wisdom.
Real wisdom can be seen in CLARITY rather than vagueness.
Real wisdom adresses long term values versus short term desires.
Real wisdom seperates value questions, fairness, other peoples point of view etc from "what exists" questions.
Real wisdom uses a proper level of complexity for it's audience when possible.
Real wisdom has a relevant level of precision, neither more nor less.
Real wisdom does not adress complex questions superficially. It digs down to the proper depth, and might need to give complex answers as opposed to simplistic slogans or commandments.
Example:The nations laws vs the golden rule which is superficial which takes the complexity of society into account?
Real wisdom is aware of egocentric or sociocentric thinking.
Example: Am I thinking about how this affects me? Should I be thinking about how it will affect others?
Example:How does the matter look from the perspective of a group of mostly poor people informed only by the government controlled information in their country? Do you look helpful or threatning when this is taken into consideration? What are the implications and consequences of this?
Real wisdom is logically consistent.
Real wisdom changes when it discovers new better ways of thinking.
Real wisdom does not exist. Noone is perfect but if I define 'real wisdom' as 'better thinking' than the poor communication of vague ambigous old texts then yes it does exist in that SENSE. Real wisdom considers the sense a word is intended, not just the literal letters. Nor does it change that sense halfway through a line of thinking.
The foundation for critical thinking has alot of resources on this and more if it should interest you.
I attended a church service with some friends. Also in attendance was a 13 year old Chinese girl who had been born deaf. All of the church members knew her since she had been attending with her adoptive parents since she was a baby. The guest speaker laid hands on her and she began to hear. No vagueness about it. Christians are told to lay hands on the sick/infirm, pray and ask in the name of Jesus, and the prayer of faith will heal the sick. PERIOD. It works. I've seen it and done it. Want more examples?
yes! more, more!
Then certain of the scribes and the Pharisees answered, saying Master, we
would have a SIGN (Miracle) from thee. But he answered and said unto them,
"An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a SIGN (Miracle) and there shall no SIGN (Miracle) be given to it, But the SIGN (Miracle) of the Prophet Jonas Matthew 12:38-39 (Holy Bible)
Seeing brain washed people like this...Who stop using their true Miracle - Their Brains! I am no more surprised why people chose not to believe in God and call themselves Atheist!
These People have made God some sort of Magician out there pleasing people with tricks that do not appeal to the intellect & wisdom...
If indeed you have the treasure of Miracles then go out to all hospitals heal people there - People are fed up paying doctors in hope of getting cured - Health care has become a big money making industry you miracle workers can break this trend!
If indeed you have the treasure of Miracles go to those famine hit areas in the world, just pray get some gold or whatever u can manage...But for heaven sake stop those famines!
If indeed you have the treasure of Miracles go to those "Terrorist" just cure them of their sickness! I bet everybody want this to be done no matter what means or whether one is Religious or Atheist...
If indeed you have the treasure of Miracles go to those war zones and solve also those problems "Once for All". Numerous people are suffering oppression for reasons they dont know, Numerous soldiers are suffering oppressing people for reasons they too dont know...all are leading just so much frustrated life...Just for God Sake go there!
But indeed if you have a shred of Truth and Sanity left in you... please cease from what you are doing ( I know you people think whatever you do is pleasing God!) it is simply bringing wrath of God closer to you...There will come a day when all this what you do will break down in front of you...just like a dream and that day the pain in your heart & the nervous break down in your brain will have no peace no cure...and there will certainly be no miracle coming down for such people!
You are the Miracle...You have such wonderful thing called Brain...Use this Miracle...God save You...
God fingered my grandmother.
To stop this from happening, take note of the following recommendations on how to tell the difference in between a fake and a genuine handbag. As you know, it is safer and a lot far more convenient for you to know… ahead of placing your order. You don’t want to go through the tension of having to return the handbag when you discover that it is secure. In other words, prevention is better than cure.
A Hermes scarf is worn in many ways: round the neck, on the head, on the shoulders, as a waist sash on jeans, hunging from a shoulder bag.
First off, this film has a huge story behind it. Why it was even made! And there is a second file called Ferious Love, it is even better. When you hear the store behind this film being made and the next two film you see God working on something so much greater. This file was a man saying yes to God in making it. I pray you say yes to God. When you don't see the whole picture or know why, but just say yes and step out BIG things happen that only God can do and not man. That is the God I want to serve. Great Job Darren, i look forward to the 3rd file father of light coming this january. PS: get the whole story behind this making.
Apparently, God has time to do the dentist and sprinkle fairy dust on people's crotches but can't spare a second for the thousands and thousands of children dying of hunger and raped every single day. In that case, he must be one Holy, Omnipotent and All-knowing JACKASS.
Peace.
I was watching along, and suddenly I realized. OMG, the Narrator has been compromised!! Ruuun, save yourselves!!!!!!
Uh oh... Great to see the Atheist Crusaders on fire again. You feel proud?
Beautiful, awe-inspiring. I am a relatively new follower of Jesus Christ. I study Scripture and commentaries at least 8 hours a day for the past 3 years. Even so, miracles in our day I felt a bit skeptical about. The Spirit of God led me to this site and to this documentary - I had no idea what I was really looking for until I found it. Months ago I prayed fervently foGod to provide me with wisdom and revelation of who He is. I prayed not for wealth, health, or things of that nature. Just more wisdom at Knowing Who God is, His Character, and Does He really Do what He says He will do according to His Will. After watching this documentary, I cried sweet tears of joy and relief. And I thanked our Father in Heaven for guiding me to this movie. It was extremely encouraging, uplifting, and pointed right to the heart of God Himself. Thank you dearly for making this movie. I have been blessed dearly and I long to show it to others. May the peace of God surround the heart of all who read this, in the name of our Lord and Savior. Open your eyes to see, open your ears to hear - be open minded and open your heart to Yeshua - He will do the rest and you will come to believe upon asking Him with sincerity and love. Blessing to us all. God be praised!!
thank you for your response. i am encouraged by what you said and like you this movie came across my path and i was amazed to see God work in amazement. Im a missionary and started experiencing thing of God i could not understand. There is another film called Ferious Love and in January the 3rd one is coming called Father of lights. i meet the director 2 months ago in person and he is amazing on describing God that helps brake all boxes we tend to put God in. I am also a fan of Bill Johnson, i recommend listening to him. I been a believer for 8 years now and 5 of them has been in a 3rd world country serving as missionary. I believe the truth because of encounter throughs out theory. God is so in Love with us! Bless you and your walk.
Literally watched 10mins of this shit, not gonna bother with this American garbage. Got better things to do. These yankie doodles for real.
@KikkiNeh -- your ignorance blows me away. Read a book.
THE TRUTH ABOUT THIS FILM IS ABOUT LOVE!!! ITS NOT THE PEOPLE WHO IS HEALING AND DOING THE MIRACLES ITS THE LORD! WE ARE VESSELS HE USES FOR HIS GLORY! GOD CAN YOU USE ANYONE OR ANYTHING FOR HIS GLORY. GOD DID IT FOR US FOR LOVE HE CARES IF WE ARE SICK, BODY HURTS, WE ARE BLIND...ECT..HE KNOWS ALL AND EVERYTHING, AND HE DOES NOT WANT US TO HURT ANYMORE BUT BE HEALED WITH HIS LOVE. MAY GOD BE WITH ALL OF YOU.
This is the simply ridiculous. "About a year ago, I couldn't turn my neck to the left. Now I have a full range of motion!" It cant possibly be that the body heals naturally over time...could it?
What is wrong with you sheepeople. Really gold teeth you should fined the dentist who put them in. Why didn't GOD fix the rest of that old woman teeth. Common, people will look for anything to fill up there lives. I can't figure out why GOD only protects American soldiers and not anybody else who they fight against, just can't watch anymore of this totally insane doc.
I don't think I'm going to finish watching this, but I got a long ways into it. I started watching it because I thought it would be a critical look at Christianity.
I felt that for a practicing religious person, this guy had a pretty fair, reasonable outlook. It was interesting to take in a favorable opinion of miracle phenomenon, since most docs are about the obvious reason why they are phony.
He does talk about his personal faith, so it might make good material as reference for religions courses & so on.
"But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death."
Proverbs 8:36
Eternal life is not only life after death. It is the God quality of life that is available to you now, before your body dies... and forever.
I'm not too crazy about this verse. I didn't find a God, even though I spent the first 16 years of my life making a passionate and informed search for it. But what I did find was something better - a lack of faith.
My life actually improved greatly when I stopped trying to perform the mental gymnastics necessary to support irrational belief, but it took ten more years to extract the faulty programming. I've become comfortable in the self-sufficiency that arises where belief falls short.
I've become much more optimistic and less fatalistic since I gave up on the God idea.
"Belief is the end of knowledge." -Robert Anton Wilson
But remember - Your Mileage May Vary
You get yer quotes from people who were created by God. Why dont you just talk to God yourself?
It has nothing to do with religion or anything silly like that, in fact jesus said all religion is is the blind leading the blind, buildings and people dont save people Jesus does.
So although you looked and didnt find...look one more time and i promise you youll find...and not in like alot of religions sense where youll just have good morals and a thing to do every sunday...but a living tangible spirit inside of you that will reveal to you secrets of the world and make you to be the man he has called you to.
God created you and he has such a special plan for your life.
And all you have to do is receive...which means accept what He wants to give you...if you deny it then it wont be yours because its not what you want.
but if you just accept and humble yourself before God and receive what He wants to give you it will be yours(salvation, prosperity, all the things Jesus died for and the mind of Christ)
And you dont have to go to church and make friends with a priest, ya just gotta say this little prayer and make friends with the one who loves you most, who has a fiery passion and jealousy for you=]
Trust me man, though you dont know me i used to be a wreck...i was a drunk pot head who had a baby and hated everything...now i just desire for people who havnt met the real God and not the religious God to just bask in his glory.
READY FREDDY?!?! just say this prayer and Jesus will come running to you, he wont come unless you invite Him, hes a gentleman. and he even says I WILL COME IN!
He also says take one step towards me and i'll take two towards you.
so just say this with an open heart and He'll come.
again He wont push Himself unto you, if you dont want Him to come when you say the prayer and yer just saying the prayer to try and prove He dosnt exsist then thats what youll receive.
Anyways sorry ive rambled but im just so excited, for if you say this prayer God will do things for you you never thought possible.
So just say this aloud with all yer heart and youll be set=]=]
Dear Lord Jesus, come into my heart. Forgive me of my sin.
Wash me and cleanse me. Set me free. Jesus, thank You that You died for me. I believe that You are risen from the dead and that You’re coming back again for me. Fill me with the Holy Spirit. Give me a passion for the
lost, a hunger for the things of God and a holy boldness to
preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. I’m saved; I’m born
again, I’m forgiven and I’m on my way to Heaven because I
have Jesus in my heart.
As a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ, I tell you today that all of your sins are forgiven. Always remember to run to God and not from God because He
loves you and has a great plan for your life.
I love you so much and i just pray that God will bless you and your family greatly. =]=]=]
Why are people who believe in eternal life worrying about cancer? Go meet god sooner! In fact, put your gonads in a jar and go meet him right now. I'm going to try praying for god to give me cancer, so I can start experiencing the afterlife sooner
don't be stupid.. patience is a virtue. but i take it you just specialize in ridicule.
Ignorance. Evolution is not a religion and it does not tell you to love "everyone." It is a scientific position on the way that organisms evolved into human beings. It does not make statements like, lets just all love each other." If anything, evolutions says that we are just complex biological anomalies for which love is just a redicluous statement because it is a chemical reaction to certain stimuli. Time to wake up, ignorance is disgusting, please educate yourself!
the evolution theory came from darwin and he didnt have the idea of us evolving from organisms into human beings in mind when he "invented" this theory... he was christian and believed in god and that we are all gods creations. Evolution doesnt mean evolving from microorganisms into humans its simply the change from things over time depending on where they are. like a tree that u pant into a different climate is gonna die but if u do it step by step getting closer to that climate it will survive. dont take darwins theories and swich them until they fit into your own theories!!!
No offense, but everything you said is wrong. Life on earth DID begin from single cell organisms 3.8 billion years ago (approximately). Darwin was not a christian; he was an Agnostic and he certainly didn't believe we are all gods creations because then it'd be ironic the fact that he dedicated almost his entire life on proving the contrary; in which he succeeded. If you want to know more, you can find thousands of books which can provide and explain evidence for Evolution by natural selection since it's one of the most accredited scientific facts in history.
AUWR I think u didnt study darwin very well.... he was a christian and im pretty certain of it. He did his theory to serve god and not the opposit. and I`m sorry but i wouldnt beliefe everything every book says.... A lot of scientific books say the earth is billions of years old without any real proofs so they might as well take darwins theory and change it and lie about the fact that he did believe we r all gods creatures...
You seem to be someone who is very concerned with the ignorance of people. I wonder why someone as intelligent as yourself would be fooled into watching and responding to such a foolish documentary? I have scrolled down and read a few of your comments and I wonder what career you have chosen? Maybe a sceintist, or doctor? I am excited to know how you plan on contributing to others who are so concerned with curing cancers and such and taking these discoveries to third world countries who aren't as blessed as us...oh wait...as advanced as us...blessed wouldn't be a word you would use. What also rises my curiosity would be how one like yourself plans on doing all of this? Not through donations or excepting money from others, for that would be deceptive. No, only cruel organizations such as churches do things of that nature. No, you would surely work as hard as you could, become incredibly rich and selflessly use all your resources to help others. I am so excited to hear of your accomplishments on how you plan on educating others to do the same! I also am excited to know that once you get this all going, as you will because surely others will want on board with this exciting development, that you will be able to find other amazing perfect people that will never want any of the credit and will all be as humble and tenacious in helping others like yourself. Oh how our world will be changed. The effects of this will be purely amazing.
Martin Luther King once said...I know that wind exists, how? Because I've seen the effects that it causes.
Science is amazing...but it was created. You prove to me how and you've got me...then I challenge you to call out to my Almighty God and dare you to ask Him how He can reveal Himself to you...I simply dare you.
Interesting that many of these conditions can be improved by positive thinking or just faking it. If god healed you, why doesn't he heal the believers with real illnesses such as cancer, spinabifida, down syndrome, aids......If Christians are right yall are the biggest hypocrites and idiots in the world. If you are wrong (which you are), you are the most gullible person in the world. If there is proof or evidence show me! Why is it that all reason, logic, history and science are contrary to your beliefs? Maybe you should ask yourself this question.
And just for the record, there is no proof that science is real either!!! Some people just GUESSED what it could be and wrote i down as a formula... it only proofes that humans are really creative and have an awesome imagination. If some of them use it to invent Sciences and Formulars and others put their efford into god, there is nothing wrong about it. Just let them believe in what they want! no need to debate and call each other names and make each other bad in front of the rest of the world!!!
What?? no proof that science is real?? then the computer you are using to type this on is not real enough! Science does not Invent facts, facts are facts. Science searches via the scientific method and finds the facts.
hahaha!! that's pretty funny.
Effin' science, how does that work? All I see is miracles!
Sorry, but this statement you just made is pure ignorance. There is plenty of evidence that science is "real." Lets see where to start, so their is no proof that science is real huh? What about going to the moon, nuclear weapons, nuclear power plants, cars, planes, galaxies, computers (like what you are using to write this idiotic statement, is your computer not real?) medical cures, lack of small pox, evolution or at least adaption, energy, quantum physics, water pressure, the internet and the list goes on and on and on. You see young one, science is the study of gathering information, and putting things together in a logical manner. We use science to create things from this knowledge. Christianity does none of this. But, yet, people want to say science is not true. I want to say, well you sit in front of it all day! Time to use your brain and grow up.
I was not talking about science as in medicine and such. of course science exists in a way but dont forget that god made all those plants that help us make medicine. it was all there whatever we are using to create new things. electricity and the knowledge to build things like computers... my list also goes on and on. that doesnt give science the power to create human beings though.
KikkiNeh - I'm totally with you! Like, frickin' computers, how do they work? I don't wanna talk to a scientist
Wow you truly know nothing about the world in which you live
They do go into hospitals and pray for children with cancer. The hospitals that will allow them in. And many of them get healed. Bethel Church in Redding, CA has an almost 100% cancer healing rate.
If you love these children that you feel need healing as your evidence: round up as many as you can and take them to Redding, CA, to Bethel Church, and get the evidence you need to separate yourself from God for eternity, or finally get what you seek.
Many good people live a miserable life while living in the most wonderful places. Many people in the most miserable places live with more happiness than you see here in America. It's not their theology, their politics, their intelligence... it's there understanding of God. The God who loves them with an unending love that is not bound by the laws of this reality.
The love of God manifested in miracles is not really evidence: it's demonstration. The evidence is that God touches the lives of people you don't really care about, so their miserable, joyless existence is transformed into a joyous, celebration of victory. And they get healed and live in a state of bliss for eternity to boot.
You are going to live forever.
Even people who have died and said that they didn't see anything testify to the fact that they remember the things that took place when they died. It would be a better testimony, if theirs is an argument against an afterlife, for them to say that they don't remember.
You are going to live eternally with the God who makes everyone alive, or the ideas that become void and a reproach to all who trust in them. Travel the world and try God. You will not be disappointed.
I think not. It is too obvious from reading the scriptures that the God of the Bible is created by man of the Bronze age
And how come you beliefe in some "scientific formulas" that were created by "man of the bronze age"??? there is no proof either, that science is true. its just a bunch of possibilities written down in formulas that could be true but there is no evidence nor proof!
Praying might make SOME cancer patients feel better which may in turn have some therapeutic effects. Positive thinking is a much more well defined therapeutic agent.
To suggest either as a replacement for medicine is dangerous, ill thought out and propagandist.
Show me evidence? Oh, but wait you have no evidence except a book that was written by smart people and knew how to trick people into lies! When you die your body releases "dmt," this is a known scientific fact, but yet, Christians want to claim it's god. Any evidence would be sufficient. The Bible is now rejected by priests, scientist, historians, physicist, professors, and pretty much anybody who has half a brain. If "god" is real where is the evidence, where is the proof. The Bible has many contradictions, historical inaccuracies, logical problems, scientific problems and still a lack of evidence or proof in any form. You would think as many people believe in this propaganda, someone would be able to come up with something that could withstand logical, scientific, and historic scrutiny. If these people are healing others, how about make a video in a hospital, or somewhere that is at least somewhere that people of disbelief or skepticism could see such "miracles." Once again,Christians make great claims but yet have nothing to show for it. This in and of itself is not logical or reasonable. If the Christian community is correct about their claims, they have demonstrated a complete lack of intelligence in showing anyone that what they are saying is true. If I could heal, I would make world wide news and make it known without a doubt that I was not a snake oil salesman. But, this is what you people are unless you can prove me otherwise. Which, you most likely can't, because your beliefs are myths and contrary to logic.
yes your body releases dmt - in fact every night it does in small amounts - but just cause a chemical (btw have you experienced dmt?? if you had i would venture to guess you might be extremely extremely more open minded) I view religion as dogmatic and science as essentially a very very similar concept to religion ... religion had 'evidence' - look the sun comes up, the stars move, yes crude types of evidence... the problems with science and the evidence you seek are that they are assuming there can be such a thing as a fact - the best you can hope for is a pseudo-fact - something that is true from the perspective of a human's senses and mental perspective and current capacities for thought etc... and the extent to which that inner effects the outer world you perceive can quickly and easily (even though 'science') be established - admittedly i haven't yet watched the doc - but i guess i just wanted to state my belief in terence mckenna's common statement that 'the universe isn't just stranger than we suppose, it is stranger than we CAN suppose' - and at best science / facts / rationalism have to be seen from a humble perspective of applying only to humans, or experiences and our world - which is perhaps infinitely small a part of THE world if there is the ability to speak of such things - this is why i find it not just annoying but just as dangerous as christian or other religious dogmas the notion that somehow science can get to some end point, some finality, some TRUTH - to me this is clearly very naive - science shouldn't be a quest for answers, it should be a quest for experience and more questions - as is the process of art and all forms of human experience and practice....
... and if anything can shed light on why science isn't some be all end all nor is anything we could ever dream up or conjure trying a real bit of dmt is one way to get there
You've just watched some evidence.
Evidence my ass. If they can heal all over the world, why not walk into a hospital in America and start healing the thousands of children with cancer in hospitals across America, that would be evidence? Come on, grow a brain. This is propaganda!
Healing requires faith that God exists!
The film maker Darren Wilson is my professor here at Judson University and I have never met a more genuine, down to earth person. He will be the first to tell you that he thought this was a load of crap when he started. He is doing amazing things in the world and won't stop because of unbelievers. He showed this film at school and when I first saw it I thought it was the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in my life. Three years from then I can sit here and tell you that this film and the things that are happening in the world are shaking me to my core. I sat in a conference this morning and watched my fellow classmate, Ben, heal a woman of uneven legs. In front of my eyes. I want to be a skeptic, I want to say it's all a load of shit but it isn't...and I hope someday that you'll let God work in your life so that you can see the truth too.
get a scientist and get some proof. Come on, back it up with evidence. If I healed someone right in front of me I would grab scientist and anyone who would come and take tests. Otherwise, its more of the same Christian healing b.s. that is used to take advantage of people.
Ashley,don't let your acceptance of God become confused with patently believing tent show chicanery.extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.I dont suggest you give up your spiritual life or your faith.But trust me(heh),hucksters are everywhere,selling miracles and if you BELIEVE you'll see a miracle,you will...The uneven leg miracle is the oldest Flim-Flam in the book.Hell,I've done it myself a few times.So,love God but don't trust some fast talking street Jesus Healer.Really,does God even NEED miracles and bogus hocus pocus for people to believe in Him? Looks like He needs all the help He can get
Isn't it about time to shut theists and deists out of the scientific debate soon? I mean everyone's got the right to an opinion, but God(s) has been disproved for years, so why do we allow scientific progress to be slowed down (still!) by these ignorant nut-cases who refuse to let go of their fairy-tales?
You reply with an obvious lack of faith. You have a bias against a religion or all religion and your frustration (or immaturity of thought & debate) shows in your comments.
The Bible is a VERY accurate account of history. It chronicles the very blood line that brought forth our savior, Jesus Christ. Ask a Jew why the Jewish faith no longer sacrifices... I've heard one tell me that it is due to the Levite lineage being lost, but that's bull, they know who the Levites are. The real reason the Jews don't sacrifice is because the veil of the temple was torn FROM TOP TO BOTTOM... this opened the temple to EVERYONE. There is no need to sacrifice again... Jesus was the ULTIMATE sacrifice.
I'm not asking you to believe, but there's no sense in calling me a "nut-case" for having faith in something far greater than myself. And I had to point out that there is NO WAY to disprove YHWH, as HE created the Heavens and the Earth and all things in it.
Religion doesn't slow scientific progress down... politics do.
There is no such thing as a lack of faith. There is faith, and there is the common state of mind, which we are born into.
Yes, I must confess I do, but rightly so. I've watched this world be torn apart for too long by religion - it is time we make it stop!
Don't make the laugh. You believe, then, that the world is 6 to 10 thousand years old? The Bible is full of contradictions and evil quotes by the supposed God. Furthermore, we know that everything you hold so dear was put down at the first council of Nicaea; a structured efforts to bring some sense in all of the numerous "Holy scriptures", and decide which ones were to be followed. That, dear sir, is nothing but PR.
The supposed God is not greater than you. Would you murder? Would you permit rape? Would you kill a disobedient child? I think not. It is too obvious from reading the scriptures that the God of the Bible is created by man of the Bronze age, because he possesses the moral values of the time, and he knows as little of the world as they knew at the time.
Wake up and live your life.
i am 10 years old and i do not agree with you
Scientific progress is hindered on so many levels due to these mythologies. This pisses me off because I actually care for people and want science to be capable of helping them. But nooooo, people around the world spend billions on churches that consume unmeasurable resources and make leaders rich or at least well off. I wonder if they took that money and invested it into cancer research, how many thousands of innocent lives would be saved. But, "god" wants your cash, ruler of the world and master and creater of the universe, but, what he really wants is your money! hhaaaaaahhhaaaa Oh but wait, I'll be rewarded when I die! I would like to create a business based on this thinking. Work for me, give me 10% of your money, come and sing to me for entertainment cause this is what I like, go out and tell others to do the same thing so I can make more money, and I will repay you once you are dead, I promise, pinky promise!
Ahhh yes sophisticated Theology, disproving science since A.D. 0001
Vinger in the poo poo. Derp da derp.
No disrespect but that was the first thing I came up with.
Amazing! God is great!
God does not exist. Time to think for yourself and wake up from the lies and indoctrination that you have suffered!
Believe or not believe...its you that has to answer for it in the end.
Oh great, I don't believe and now I'm going to hell! What a merciful person you are and what a merciful god you have. So it never occurred to you, maybe if you offered some sort of decent thought provoking argument you could change my mind. Oh no, you just say, you are going to hell to burn forever and be tortured by Satan in a lake of fire!! All you had to do was show some evidence to this poor little soul. But, sadistic Christians like yourslelf get off to that fact that yall believe non-believers are going to hell. I think Christians are the worst people in the world.
"Finger of God," or give god the finger?!
wow, jolly great gold teeth, "god put them there". Just like he put the Enzo Ferrari in my drive way! Thanks God! ;)
HAving been healed many times of serious conditions e.g. life long asthma, rhuematoid arthritis which crippled my hands and fibromyalgia and pain and chronic fatigue condition.. i KNOW that God heals!
Whether this is for real or not... HE is for REAL!!! as are healing and miracles... the bottom line is you have to see it to believe it... sadly though unless you ask and believe you wont see it.. pray that you will believe!
Give me a break. You can delude yourself that he is real, but don't try to tell the rest of us that he is, because we know that he isn't.
How do you know that he isn't real?
Even atheists will cry to the Lord when they're scared of death.
I've had bad things happen to me and others I would classify as miracles. I walk with the Lord, even as I sin, but there is too much proof that he is, rather than isn't.
The truth is... you can't explain God, you can only follow in faith.
I suppose no one can say for certain he isn't real, but nor do we have to. Just like we don't have to know for certain that there isn't a flying spaghetti monster.
Based on the evidence provided by science, and the material provided by Christianity, or any other religion over the years, we can conclude that there is most likely no God. If I'm wrong, may he smite me down and let the world know he is here.
In the meantime, I intend to use my time to do actual good, and help my fellow Earthlings because it is right - not because some bearded entity in the sky tells me to.
You seem to by going out of your way to prove something DOES NOT exist. If it does not exist, why are you so concerned. Anyone who already believes that God exists wil certainly not follow you and your reasoning and become NON believers. For those who have still to find their faith, the world around us has beaten to you to the task.
I do not believe that you watched this film in its entirety for if you did you would have received a very important message -as spelled out by Heidi. If you are against that message, then I fully understand why you do not believe God exists. Finally the Almighty God does not have to prove to world that he exists by smiting YOU down, you are not that special.
I am concerned because the dogmas of the believers aren't kept within their own doorsteps. One of the main reasons the world is in turmoil right now is because religion corrupts decent people and make them do terrible things.
Au contraire - the world is slowly turning atheist. That would not have happened if people didn't step forward and enlighten others about the lies of the Bible.
Well, according to Jesus I am that special. Surely, someone as powerful as God would be able to convert a humble being like myself.
I have read many of your comments on "to GOD or not to GOD". You sound like a young guy that has had religion fed down the throat by his folks....and is not gonna allow one more word of it anymore.
I too do not find my values in what i hear or read but that doesn't keep me from thinking that science will elucidate the concept one day.
GOD can be, but that is going to require that we drop everything we think it is, so it can be what it is not for now.
az
Not really, I must say. My parents were, if anything, agnostic. In recent years they've realised, I'm sure, that there is no God. Who but an insane person could believe in a God when the human race is as vicious as it currently is?
Something like God could be, that is true. However, based on the knowledge available to us - there most certainly isn't.
I am inclined to agree with you that dogmas of certain believers are not kept on their own doorsteps but I cannot agree with you that religion corrupts decent people resulting in the turmoil this world is in. Your next comment that the world is turning atheist might very well explain the reason for this turmoil. The world rejects God and then wonders where He is when there is turmoil. You may well be concerned, as you should be, but let's not forget my original question - why do you go to such great lengths to prove that "something" does not exist?
Please also enlighten us to the "Lies" of the Bible
Finally, you ARE special to God but not in such a way that He need to do something to show you that exists. After all it is you who have to do the showing - that you are worthy and that you accept Him.
So sad that you waste so much energy - you are a good writer and a person of intellect - this could have been channelled to great use by the church.
Nice to see we agree on something. :)
Oh, but it does - just look at the conflict between Shiites and Sunnis, or Islam and Christianity, and so forth. What motivated the American people to wage war on the Middle-East? What motivates the Taliban to terrorise? Why do cults arise? Why do the Irish kill each other?
These are just mere examples that everyone should know of, but there are dozens of other, similarly religious conflicts going on as we speak, and thousands scattered across history.
The reason the world is turning atheist is because education and knowledge is on the rise. Since the explosion of the internet, anyone can learn of the world and its wonders (in a non-religious sense). The exception would be people living in misery and poverty in underdeveloped countries, and we can all see why.
Fair enough, I'll share some of the Bible to you.
According to Genesis, Earth was formed before the Sun. Well know this is false.
Revelation would have it that stars are tiny objects in the sky that will fall down when Jesus comes back. We know this is false. They do look small from our view, and it is understandable that a Bronze-Age man would think of them as small. But surely, the God of all things ought to know better?
In Genesis, the moon is referred to as a light. We know the moon merely reflects light.
There is supposed to be a solid "roof" over the world. We know there isn't. We have satellites and space probes, not to mention the shuttles.
Do you want me to continue? :)
Oh, I wouldn't attribute myself all of that by any means. But thank you nonetheless!
@thomas really?? a whole book report?? im not taking sides. havent done all my homework yet. but @lary nine hit the nail on the head. this is the COMMENT section. not the essay section. if you wanted to do that, you might have been better off making a youtube video or something. wow, it only took me one short paragraph to say that.
Of course you do not understand, or live, or believe this, why not have Christ in their lives.
Of course they will deny the existence of God and supernatural things can happen and is super understandable that they do not understand these things because as I said before do not have Christ in their lives.
But my question is why you criticize something you have not lived? Why this can not be desert and the other things you?
Many arguments might have, but nobody can talk without having lived and I'm not saying that some of you have gone allan Christian church, but really it's nothing that people in the church is always going to fail because as the other people are imperfect.
I'm talking about something beyond a church structure and doctrine, I speak of God who sent his son (Jesus) to die on the cross for all of us, to give us salvation, new life, died for our sins, died and rose again and yet! gives us freedom to decide which path to choose.
What is your argument to say no to God? .
Then you say that this is false, I say that this is true, not only saw him in this argument, if not because I lived it too.
We're not under law anymore, we're under grace. God never intended us to be under law, but Moses' people asked for law thinking that they could do anything God told them to do...sadly they were mistaken. YAY FOR GOD'S GRACE!!!
Yay for God's reign of terror in the Old Testament!
"If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted." (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
For a guy who claim to be atheist you seem to have the bible or testament pretty close to your computer, or did you memorize all that from a previous way of thinking?
Not that there is anything wrong with that...someone said before(may be Epicurus and not in those words), if you're going to argue a point might as well know what the point is about. As for me i have never read the bible from cover to cover, barely from one chapter to an other...because my perception is that the writings are not the original writings, therefore it's just a bunch of what a chain of people said was said. I am sure parts of the bible writings may still be pretty close to what was once written but what?
az
What can I say - I like to keep a reasonable amount of fiction at hand for when I get bored. ;)
That is very true. I agree. It is good to know your enemy, so to speak.
What do you base that on? Too many religious people make up their own conceptions of the Bible and other holy scriptures without anything to base it on really - other than the fact that the Bible is filled with offensive stuff that I can understand any sensible person would like to avoid.
There were plenty of Biblical books written around the time, and the ones you see today were elected at the first church meeting at Nicaea.
First it is written about Jesus years after he died, Jesus never wrote a word of it...so right there it had to be interpreted.
Second it was written in a different language...it had to be interpreted.
Third it was written in a very different era where the language and the transmission style would have been extremely different...it had to be interpreted.
Many religions sprouted from it and the bible adapted to those differences...it had to be interpreted from interpretations.
Since it will never be known what Jesus said, if he even existed...I don't take the bible as a proof of what energetic spirituality was intended to be.
I am left to search somewhere else and to view the bible for the good words and phrases that are in it. If those were interpreted at least they support an order of peace.
As for the rest...i like to think that the non-sense, hostile, offensive stuff was added by people wanting control and yes like you suggest...it is best to avoid. There is enough to put genuine interest in, without having to fight what is obvious.
az
So why choose the Bible of evidence or inspiration of anything? Like you say, it is written by man and therefore we should consider it to be nothing more.
But surely you do realise that without ancient scriptures like the Bible, no one today would be able to even grasp the concept of divinity, spirituality, and so forth? All of our ideas of spirituality (in our time) stems from such scriptures. We are too well read and know too much about the world to conceptualise a God from nothing, because we have no need to do it. We can explain the sunrise and the sunset with science. Because of that, I think you'd have to be a hypocrite to not take the Bible literary and still believe. Otherwise you lose your credibility - because anyone can alter anything to their own preference and create their own belief. I can do it right now about Donald Duck.
The little authority the Bible and Christianity have comes from their age alone, so if a Christian doesn't even believe in the Bible, then what else can he believe in? This is why cults are made. Anyone can interpret anything as they want to, taking away all credibility.
Well, that is amiable of you. But it is also nitpicking. I think it is what most modern Christians do; they nitpick the good stuff from the Bible and say "Hey - look! God teaches us to be good people!"
What you forget is that, if the parts you decide to read are supposed to be taken as authoritative text and evidence of God, then you must also include the other parts. Otherwise you prove yourself that God isn't real, or at least that the Bible isn't.
The Bible is vicious, evil, and immoral. I would rather die than take its lessons on morality. I like women to be valued as equals to men; I dislike slavery; I don't want people to murder each other; I don't think homosexuality is a sin; I want a child to be able to rebel against her parents without getting stoned to death; I don't want fathers to sell their daughters as sex slaves; I don't want children to leave their parents behind to follow Jesus (like Jesus instructs).
Let's say you went to a pot-luck party, i bet you anything there would be an assortment of food on the table of which you would eat certain things and leave others aside thinking they don't appeal to you. At the end of the party most serving plates would be empty. Because others would have thought different.
That's what spiritual writings are. You take what fits you and you leave the rest for others. Spiritual writings were written to help one on his own search of the unknown. No one should take anything as a whole, it was not meant that way. That's the description of religion, taking it ALL as truth. Nothing wrong with nitpicking, it is mandatory if you want to find your own way.
The search for infinity is different for every one and the writers of energetic messages knew that, so did the translators, transmittors, plagiarists.
Once again i do not read the bible, but i hear it quote by many.
You say:" All of our ideas of spirituality (in our time) stems from such scriptures.
I say: you are right but it remains and always will be interpretation.
There is a way to look beyond that but it may make people say: Are you crazy? the rest is poetry...
why will a dog not stare at my eyes
why will god not stare at my eyes
why do i see and feel through
why does an eye rhyme with i
why do i have 2
why can i see 3
i think i know why
i have two eyes
i have two ii
the ÿ of me
try it before you say it does nothing
cross the eyes of your ii
something magic happens
if this sounds crazy well it is
all alien actions and ideas
inventions and dreams are crazy
before they become the norm
when i do this everything stops
everything disappears
except my heart beat
and i stand on the connect line
az
a poet in her free time
I definitely understand what you are saying. But what I'm trying to say is that, once you find that anyone can just interpret anything as they wish, based on essentially nothing but their own gut-feeling and desires - what you end up with is not to be taken serious. I could suddenly decide that I think Sauron was a force of good in The Lord of the Rings. That doesn't make me right. It is Tolkien's book; he wrote it - he makes the rules. Sauron was evil, and that's the end of it.
Now I could of course go on to say "but to me Sauron is good". Well that's fine, but that also means I have just come up with my own fiction and no longer have any right to use the authority of the original works to back up my case. I'm simply imagining things.
In the same sense, I could go on to say that I believe in a flying spaghetti monster. There is nothing you can say to disprove my claim (apart from the fact spaghetti can't fly, and was invented by humans, so it couldn't possibly come from somewhere else). But am I right? Certainly not. I can repeat my claim of the spaghetti monster a billion times, and shut my ears to everyone who tries to convince me otherwise, saying "This is my view and you need to respect it". But I would still be wrong.
Lovely piece of poetry. ;)
and on this:I would rather die than take its lessons on morality. I like women to be valued as equals to men; I dislike slavery; I don't want people to murder each other; I don't think homosexuality is a sin; I want a child to be able to rebel against her parents without getting stoned to death; I don't want fathers to sell their daughters as sex slaves; I don't want children to leave their parents behind to follow Jesus (like Jesus instructs).
I say you're on your way to being a fine person!
And if you ever fall, pick your self up, brush it off and keep dancing!
az
@Mojo
Other people's gut feelings are rarely taken seriously until.... All discoveries and theories, all beautiful art pieces, all great writings came from gut feelings. If you elliminate gut feelings you are left with "religious like" people, following the cassock of an other. Now gut feelings also have personnalities, some are totally immature while others are full of wisdom, and it doesn't depend on the age of the person or the level of education, it depends on the depth of thoughts.
Yes one can make unreal statements and even believe them. But what is that to you, a dish of ground meat in a pot-luck, are you going to stand by it to see who eats out of it?
Now if there is a plate of what someone says is *flying spaghetti monsters*, you may try it and see what happens, but of course it will only fly to your drainage pipe. lol
People make all kinds of assumptions, some just to make you respond...as human we can stand being loved or hatred but we can't stand being completely ignored. So sometimes we become complete stupids for our own needs!
Lovely piece of photograph! ha ha
az
@thomas~
According to the terms of service on posting, you're not supposed to:
1. preach
2. attempt to convert
3. quote scripture
You're in violation of TOS.
But it's not for me to say, consequently, I am disconnecting from this discourse.
@Lary Nine
i don't believe in the bible because it is fictional. I also have a good working knowledge of many other religions but that doesn't make me a Druid, Buddhist, Hindu, or any other religion. in fact, in recent studies athiests know more about what is in the Bible and other religous works than non-athiests. so it is no wonder how you confuse me with a preacher.
do you understand what i said this time?
you would think that a person with the intelligence to read and understand would have understood that message considering you claim to be a "formerly a devout believer and I remember how I felt from inside the asylum of religious belief."
"Thou shalt fear, love, and consume the blood and body of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or suffer in liver and onions for all eternity."
FSM = garlic breath
@thomas~
You should print out a transcription of your personal witness and Biblical testimony through these lengthy comments and bring it to the pearly gates to show St. Peter. It's your ticket to paradise, bro.
PS: Put in a good word for me just in case I'm wrong.
sure i'm long winded but i was clean and sober. however, i can see how you think i'd be a part of some Theastropharmacratic Histonarritive. But I am not a susbscriber to myths based on ancient astrologically-minded, drug-addled mystery cults that are used to support systems of law.
Religious Laws only serve to allow for wicked deeds against fellow people under a smug air of self-righteousnes while at the same time asking for freedom to be themselves... whereas in this country we believe in the seperation of church and state as well as the fact that all men are created equal. However the church is notorious for telling it's people that the laws of God are higher. In Exodus it says the covenant (Commandents) are forever, all 613 Mosaic Laws (the others were revealed in later chapters), and in Revelations it admits that you still need to keep the commandments. Yet it says specifically that you have to sacrifice the 'first fruits' of the harvest as well as observing the feast week. Now if some of you think that sounds a little off then re-read Exodus... the Ten Commandments are different from The Commandments.
(see also)
The Commandments - Ex 20: 1-17 (KJV) or Ex 20: 1-14 (JPS)
Ten Commandments - Ex 34: 11-28 (KJV) or Ex 20: 17-28 (JPS)
here's a couple more Mosaic Law you probably never heard of
Duet 10:20
Thou shalt FEAR the Lord thy God
(not something a nice guy would say especially when it says in Duet 6:5 to love him... does he want us all to get Stockholm Syndrome?)
Num 35:25
exile anyone who acidently kills another person
(the good guy gets punished?)
Leviticus 25:44
“Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves."
(endorsement of slavery!?!!)
Lev. 22:24
Not to castrate the male of any species; neither a man, nor a domestic or wild beast, nor a fowl
(did you spay and neuter your pets?)
Duet. 21-22
Thou shalt not plant thee an Asherah of any kind of tree beside the altar of the LORD thy God, which thou shalt make thee. Neither shalt thou set thee up a pillar, which the LORD thy God hateth.
(god hates pillars and planting trees?)
here's another good passage, which you should read... especially if you are a member of one of the right-wing groups known as the tea parties who think the war on terror is a good idea...
Lev 19:18
Thou shalt not take revenge on nor bear any grudge towards your neighbors or their children, love thy neighbor.
(this is so absurd it's laughable when viewed in the context of the church's hypocracy. see also the Crusades)
how do you expect to survive a completely irrational persons attack by doing nothing? and how do you propose to teach people to love you when you go to war with them in the name of God. Religion be damned!
let's face it the book is screwed up and fallible and believers screw up the faith all the time due to waffling on subject of where it is allegorical or literal truth. this is their mistake. they begin by saying it is true instead of learning the real truth. they hide behind their religion as if it were a magic shield. it controls them and allows others to benefit from the control it exerts. hence why the catholic church has a ton of gold, precious stones, art, fine clothes, and a gigantic bank account.
you say i'm preaching... well preaching is supposed to reveal truth and root out hypocracy and lies so i guess i am preaching....
...however, it is the sober truth.
THE MOST HIGH GOD is Love.Praise You YAH.
@Cherie~
I am formerly a devout believer and I remember how I felt from inside the asylum of religious belief. Luckily, I realized that for me to be so convinced of the absolute truth of a supernatural idea like Christianity, without evidence or reason, is a rational person's definition of common, everyday "walking-around-insanity". So think what you will... just save your sympathy cards for someone else who is halfway out the front gate but still inside the Bible-believers' Booby-hatch. Good luck. Keep on dreaming.
Funny, I don't feel sorry for you for not knowing God the way I do.
You will never find someone who knows GOD the way you do, even if you look in your congregation. Unless you follow.
az
Nothing wrong with another viewpoint, but when you twist the facts to make them into something they're not, it's sad. I feel sorry for you for not knowing God the way I do.
The people with gold teeth either know they are lying, or as someone said, have forgotten they have them. If you believe God does dental work with gold you need a good mental shower, hot and steaming. Wash out the corners too. It makes me want to go in the trinket biz. If people think glitter on a guys fly is from God, I could sell them Miracle Earth from the Holy Land in little bottles of dirt with glitter in it by the truck load. I'll email my friend in Israel and have him send me a bucket of dirt and get started right away. MIRACLE DIRT! It glitters!
@Cherie~
Re: Twisted. There's a new thing that's catching on in America. It's called an "another viewpoint".
many other view points, millions of them.
az
Jeez! I posted that 2 months ago! I've converted to Judaism since then. Try to keep up.
You sure have a twisted view of the Truth.
@ thomas~
Only an evangelical Christian could monopolize comment-space like some selfish, long-winded Pharisee and then preach to us all on how to be good, considerate people of God in the same rant. WTF...are you PWUI? (Preaching While Under the Influence.)
wow during the gypsy scene it sounds like the lady says "who isn't a lier? who isn't a thief? who isn't corrupt?"
i think that's the most honest a relgious person has even been.
churches are a den of liars, thieves, and corruption... look at the Vatican. the pope says things like, "who wasn't a nazi back then?" and most people think oh isn't the pope so honest. but i know who weren't nazi's... the jews.
gypsy miracles, oh my, they happened before you got there you say? no surprise there other than the director being gullible enough to believe it. and everyone else's 'miracle' is a montage instead of being accurately documented and verified... again.
and when encountering a non-beleiver they make it sound as if they are doing her a favor by praying for her. the last thing that poor lady needs is for a crazy american to chant nonsense on her porch and then take the credit for helping her... if the cristians really wanted to help these people they would give them food, clothing, build them houses, and above all else... GIVE THE MONEY BACK!!!
and the director had the audacity to say the gypsy was a women with a religious agenda... all she said was she didn't beleive in god... i would think a rational person could understand that when a person says they don't beleive in God switching to the Koran because you think they'll understand it better is an insult. the Koran is another book filled with stories of Abraham and his descendents. just like the Torah and Bible. in order to have a religious agenda you must first state what your religious beliefs are and then try to act according to a plan which fits the dogma of your chosen religious text or beliefs... the gypsy just said 'i don't believe in god, get off my porch.' that's not an agenda... however trying to be a missionary is especially when you won't respect others beliefs, preferences, and requests.
get off her porch!
and and just to clarify Atheists have no religious agenda... because they have no religon... there fore it's only an agenda not a religious agenda. in fact trying to name a group of people who don't believe in religion and calling it a belief is the exact opposite of true atheism because it is non-belief.
and as they walk away the preacher says love will convince them... i have been loved by followers of the faith all my life and what convinces me is logic because love is irrational emotion and irrational emotions lead to mistakes that could have been avoided with logic. and the one guy with the preacher talks to as they walk away says the gypsy lady needs to be trained... so now she's a dog? i think these ministry people need to be educated with a grounding in pure thought. If they can't see that jesus never gives a person their legs back when they've been chopped off, then they are blinded by their faith to the actual truth of reality. And atificial limbs are always man made.
and the camera guy says unbelievers are brainwashed! what a hoot! the biggest brainwashing sessions always happen when people are baptised... literally. not to mention when they are forced to listen to myths every day that screw up their perceptions of true reality.
if love is so powerful then why are bullets more effective?
"god's finger invading our lives" excuse me? are you serious? god needs to stop fingering us. this sentence makes him sound like a child molester. and when you think about the virgin birth... theological and historical experts agree that mary was most likely 15 years old when god impregnated her. So i guess god is a child molester... using them for his own gratification.
and the part that says god doesn't hate people... that's a lie too. he hated the wicked people he wipe out with a flood when he could have appeared to them and saved their souls... but he damned them to a watery grave. he could have sent the angels to soddom and gomorrah to bring the sinners back into a state of grace... but burned them alive with fire and brimstone.
god could have loved us enough to give us a paradise on earth free of disease and death. but he chose instead to fill our lives with heartache and misery. God could love us but the odds are greater that he doesn't really care at all.
if you trick someone into drinking poison and they die you can't say it was because you loved them. if you allow them to sin and then punish them for it you can not be considered just and right. and if you order them to never murder another but then threaten them with death if they refuse to kill your enemy then you are a hypocrite.
please people in the words of George Carlin, "read your bibles, the world needs more athiests and nothing will get you there faster than reading it."
did you see that... not only did she say god used the children to heal the man with the chest pains but she stopped the healing because she almost forgot to use them in the camera shot! i have a feeling the kids are being used and it's not by god.
and the director used a box for donations to show how glorious god's love is... even though god apprently failed to get every one passing it to donate.
here's another example of why religion will not help you survive in real life... the baby boom happened because of modern medicine... if religion was as powerful as they say it would done that before science. another example is the fact that more people on earth are non-christian. if their logic and miracles are so truthful than more people would have already joined the church. in truth, they find it hard to debate people in a logical manner and loose a lot of credibility in doing so because their b*llsh*t is pointed out with a spotlight and dissected in front of everyone. the only reason it still exists in my opinion is that people are too scared to let go of the safety net they beleive religion is to shield them from pain and despair. people believe that without religion there would be no hope and no rules. both are delusions. the first cavemen knew of no biblical god and they still had hopes and dreams... but no gods. and without god people still have a community network of friends and family so there is a safety net. the truth is that people like to be deluded... it is pretty fun to act crazy sometimes. but irrational thinking is not proper way to go through life especially when you base laws and fight wars over those delusions.
the only time heidi isn't praying is when she's exploiting the children and giving interviews.
when she lies it's 'holy holy holy C R A P!'
part 8 was funny... the preacher was calling out for a deaf woman to join here on stage... excuse me but if the person is deaf they won't hear you callinig for them... which probably means the lady wasn't deaf at all... she was a ringer. didn't even look like the lady was healed... she kept the same expression... plus if she was healed and no longer deaf why did the preacher have to yell in her ear... wouldn't the microphone have made it loud enough? they never asked here to indicate if she could actually hear. and the mumbled words sounded like she wasn't actually repeating the right syllables... papa... baba... mama... nanan... yeah so... yeah sue. this seems to me that she is actually partially deaf and not completely deaf, which also does not mean she was healed. in fact it points to her condition staying the same.
"in mozambique when heidi and her children pray for the deaf nearly everyone is healed." -- the director's narration
so then jesus only heals some of the people but not all of them? is it not more possible that no one is healed and everyone has rigged the performance? as a casual observer i can't take the narrator and the preacher at their word because of the simple fact that i can not verify what the people are really saying in their native tongue.
even this comment box keeps bleeping innocent words... because it can not understand the context in the sentence. in the comment above they have censored my use of the word 'S t u p i d". even though i said the things people believe were just that. which is an insult to the belief structure not the believer... the believer is merely gullible but the computer doesn't know that. it assumes just like viewer that watches this poorly filmed documentary.
thanks comment boxes! you help me prove my point.
i just tried to find verification of the mozambique miracles and i found an intersting website that claimed miracles won't happen around cynics. then they had a link to proof of a resurrection... which linked to the Playtex tampon website. the only verification comes in stories from preachers and ministers... no doctors have verified anything related to the miracles they say have happened. and all the journalists waiting outside the morgue made absolutely no mention of it. there are no pictures of the people and no one interviewed about it.
the resurrection stories that come from people who claim they seen heaven are to tempt you into being a christian.
the resurrection stories that come from people who claim to have seen hell are used to frighten the non-believers into joining the faith.
the events simply didn't happen as you are told they did in the movie. in a land of poor and uneducated people like in the parts of china, that were mentioned ealier as being poor and uneducated, you find a large number of people forming a community around false truths. this is because they are uneducated and believe a lot of stupid things. the uneducated are well-known for making rash decisions because they simply have not been taught to think. and the bible is great for getting people to stop questioning. the bible is a means of control and it has been used to brainwash our children and sometimes us.
if you have already read down to this comment i assume that by now you either agree or you're praying for me. at least half of you aren't wasting your time talking to an imaginary friend.
god has a wonderful way of taking away all your responsibility for any crime as long as you worship him.
if you don't worship him you apparently have to follow the rules.
and after he was beaten he didn't know what happened to him?
he apparently didn't forget about the beating but then again he never said he was killed... just that the mean said they were going to kill him.
the people that took him to the hospital didn't know what to do... are you sure they made an accurate diagnosis of death.
it's more likely that he got beaten and woke up later on medication preventing the normal feeling of pain his body would have been experienceing at that time from his injuries.
"he was a mess," said the preacher... and here i thought that the resurected dead were healed of their injury... God's really going for those torture points when he let's a severely beaten man revive without healing his wounds.
i bet if the phone records and reports were checked again they would find that enough time had lapsed for his injuries to heal and the 'next day' type scenerio is actually a misremembered memory just like the people with the gold teeth.
the man that was caught for the beating knew exactly what he was doing at the time of the attack and what he had done afterward. so to say 'he knew not what he was doing' is another convenient lie christians tell each other to feel better at night.
the truth is one free criminal is still one free criminal.
able to steal, rape, murder, lie, etc. again because one man decided to forgive him. however the viotim asked him to accept jesus... so the victim had an alterier motive. isn't it possible that God would rather punish a murderer than forgive him. the commandment was "thou shalt not murder".
heck even the mormons beleive that by baptising people postmortum gets them into heaven. but none of those people ever asked to be baptized... and more shocking than that... they baptized Adolf Hitler. This means, according to the Mormons, that Adolf Hitler is now in Heaven. If Hitler's in heaven I'd rather be in hell because that is just a f'd up way to do business.
i don't believe the stories of the 100 raised from the dead in mozambique because if people were really doing it then there would be a recording of it somewhere. seriously, if people were going around commanding corpses to rise in the name of Jesus then I'm sure American media would swarm on the story. it is very surprising how the voiceover talked more than the guy who was supposed to be telling the actual story. i find it hard to believe that the long detailed story i heard came out of the few statements he made. not to mention that as the person was trying to speak he paused and appeared to be listening to questions from an interviewer. seems the interpreter elaborated quite a bit to me. this leads me to believe the 'evidence' was rigged to convice people that couldn't or wouldn't think critically about what they were seeing and hearing.
give them a show and then preach to them... and if the government asks if your music school is actually training people to breach the law and spout religion... lie.
even though it is a sin to lie just as it is a sin to commit adultery and to dress in the clothes of the opposite sex which are just like lying.
christians are the ultimate subversive group... persecution and rational debate don't fix people that are crazy... and if the nation's truly realized how traitors are formed in the churches... they would be outlawed.
"lighthouses are more useful than churches" - Benjamin Franklin
there are actually about 41 million christians in china... but saying there are 100 million sounds so much more impressive until you look at the actual data.
might i add that jesus was not in that tape at all like the hot chick said he was.
oh that wacky tape of jesus parting the crowd... or more correctly of the people in the crowd falling over. you would think jesus would gently move them to the side... nope... apparently he just barged his way through without regard for their safety in the crowd... and it was done fairly violently too.
which also does not prove that anyone was healed... rather they were knocked down.
leave it to jesus to kick them down when they just want to be healed.
also if you understand crowds and how heightened states of emotions or stress can bring about blackouts, dehydration, feinting, and a domino effect then this is merely just another example of someone in trouble and it gets out of hand hurting others. guess jesus really hated that person. didn't heal them just used them to hurt more people in the audience.
thousands of tons of meat in refridgerated trucks. found nowhere in any recorde media file... the only sources are from quotes that Canon Andrew White, himself, spoke.
remember, absence of evidence IS actually evidence of absence... otherwise you could be convicted for a crime you didn't commit... afterall there is no evidence of your envolvement so therefore you were absent from the scene.
Canon Andrew White also doesn't hold a service in a Shiite Prime Minister's office. Because it would not be allowed by the people in the government or the people ruled by the government. It is another lie. Even the British, his own contrymen, don't believe this guy is telling the truth. He is such an unbelievable b*llsh*t artist.
Canon Andrew White said he held services for American Christians in Saddam Hussein's old palace. Saddam's Palace is actually the new US embassy in Iraq. He lied about services going on inside the building as well as the baptisms in the pool, which is used as a recreation area for the troops and workers assigned there.
here's text about the buddhist from burma...
(1) All Burmese experts said they had never heard of the story about this Myanmar Buddhist monk before. (2) There is also no reports either in Burma or outside Burma of mass defection of Myanmar Buddhist Monks to join the Christian Church. (3) The monk in the story said he became a novice at the age of 18. It is rather unusual as most boys Burmese boys join the monastic life at younger age than 18. (4) At the age of 19, he became a monk. This is also unusual as the entry age for becoming a fully ordained monk is 20. (There is one exception when one considers the foetal life while in the mother's womb) (5) U Zadila, also known as 'Kyar Ni Kan Sayadaw' was described as probably the most famous Buddhist Teacher of the time. That is disputable. Venerable Kyar Ni Kan Sayadaw was indeed well known and very popular as public speaker and preacher. But he was not regarded as the most distinguished monk academically and intellectually. (6) The monk said 'Kyar Ni Kan Sayadaw' died in a car crash in 1983 . In fact Sayadaw died in Myanmar Era 1339 = about 1977. There was a 6 years discrepancy which is unacceptable as the monk said he studied under him. He should know the exact year when his teacher died. And that 1977 was also the year when he became a monk. This fact alone is enough to brand the story as a fake or invention. (7) He said he was given a new name of 'U Nata Pannita Ashinthuriya' when he entered the monastery. In Burma, the title 'shin' was used for the novice. 'U' was never used for a novice. (8) The monk's new name itself was unusual nor unheard of, according to the monks I consulted. (9) Doctors diagnosed Malaria and Yellow fever. Actually the Yellow Fever was not known to exist in Burma. (10) To recover completely after very severe malaria is most unusual especially after being discharged to die. (11) To regain Life after the body started to decay (decompose) is impossible according to conventional medical thinking.
well it appears the case is well documented and debunked.
6 minutes and 32 seconds into part 5 and I just watched them put NEW YORK CITY IN THE GULF OF MEXICO!
I know Christians are stupid but how'd they screw that up?
I'll say it again... no research, no verification of facts.
Seriously, post 9/11/01... how could you not know where NY is if you live in the USA?
why is god only concerned with certain areas?...
should not the miracles be everywhere if they were true?
the answer is god doesn't care. because he doesn't exist.
all you pay to witness is coincidence and then you rationalize it as being from god because you don't understand what is really happening.
why is it that god usually reveals himself to only one person in the middle of nowhere?...
would it not better suit his purpose of getting people saved
so they could go to heaven instead of hell?
the answer is the solitary people lied. god doesn't reveal himself to anyone. and in fact, apparently wants most of the people to go to hell not heaven. there have been billions of people that have lived throughout time on Earth and at least 80% were pagan. this means that Heaven is apparently an exclusive club. God does not want everyone to go to Heaven. Saving people goes against his plan. Which makes God an egotistical, elitest, homophobic, slave-owning racist with a personal agenda that is completely against the common man if he won't praise God for being the biggest d-bag in the galaxy. If you think God cares read about Job... Satan tricked the mighty and infallible God into screwing over one of his most faithful followers. and when Job complained God said, 'who the hell are you compared to me?' which is a paraphrase of his actual longwinded speech. Then job apollogized and God told everyone Job had been speaking to that Job was right. That He, God, had been cruelly unfair and wrong to do what he did to Job.
so he is fallible and he punishes people for no reason.
listen to the guy in the green shirt, Bill Johnson, when he tells you not to beleive in the skeptic but rather pay any price to get to locations that won't disprove you... like the church where they will help you tithe your bank account away. he says i am like this because i was raised to be a skeptic... actually, this dispproves his arguement once again my entire family goes to church, my sister is a Lutheran pastor in the south. I've been to Jewish temples, Mormon temples, Catholic Cathedral, Presbyterian churchs, Baptist, and Methodist too. My family is so deluded by the religion they still think I believe in God as well. I was raised a Christian and then I read the Bible, the the Torah, the Apocrypha, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Gnostic Gospels, The Nag Hammadi Scriptures, the Book of Mormon, and many more.
EVERY SINGLE ONE IS FILLED WITH MISINFORMATION AND TEACHES A FUNDEMENTALY BIGOTED AND INTOLLERANT WAY OF LIVING.
at least Christians try to be good people... they usually horribly fail at this bbut at least they try.
so the kids sit and wait to be inspired by god for their ministry and go to Starbucks and Coldstone. places they have probably been before a hundred times. And the one kid couldn't remember the full name of the other store. How did he know it was really Coldstone from the word stone and not Stone Road, Stone Circle, FireStone, etc? hell maybe he didn't here God correctly and the lord really said "fly to jamaica and get stoned." all he heard was stone. maybe he wasn't paying attention to God because if he knew the location he would have written COLDSTONE not just stone. For all we know God wanted them to Stone someone at Starbucks.
is that girl at starbucks better for their visit? well she disrespected her parent and did drugs, which are punishable offenses according to Mosaic Law. Can you see how the Bible rips apart families rather than truly bring them together and how the righteous forget to forgive.
oops, i meant john wesley... not westley. but who cares the chick didn't get the quote right either considering it is actually...
"Catch on fire with enthusiasm and people will come for miles to watch you burn."
-As quoted in The Peaceful Path of Prosperity : Practical and Spiritual Approaches to Enrich Your Life with Your Inner Wealth (2001) by Danny Babineaux; not found in any record of Wesley before 2001.
listen to john westley, "set yourself on fire so the whole world can watch you burn." if you are a Christian please take this literally. consider it your karma for the inquisition, holocaust, firebombing of Dresden and Japan, and all the other horrible things you've done in the name of good.
that's funny they let me say god's a jerk but when i say Jason Westerfield is a M O R O N. they censor me. Seriously, if I really wanted to insult Jason I would have called him a Mormon. The word they are trying to block me from using is the least offensive insult I know.
it's funny how the true miracles like the new heart, new eye, healed wrists, etc. aren't verified by the journalist but rather stories relayed by an 'official' minister(s) who also have not documented or cared to verify that everything is correct so they can show proof. very convenient... just like how the two youth ministers ask for a visual image of someone to help and they see some sort of long fingerless glove or fishnet sleeve... then they go in to the roleplaying store and find a guy with a cast. is god so powerless that he can't get good reception to show you the exact image he has to show you? and if he loves and cares for you so much why do you need to ask? and if he doesn't answer you're prayer then it must be against his plan... which means you don't really matter that much to him. he will do what he wants. but he loves you and everyone... including the people he sends to hell to burn in tortuous flames for all eternity with no help of salvation... because he loves you. Apparently, God is the most egotistical being in the universe. And even though you have freedom of choice... you actually have no choice. You love him and praise him or you burn forever. God's a jerk.
and the black guy said that the first prayer didn't really work so they jump cut the second prayer and had him walk on it... even though the doctor gave him the crutches so he would keep his weight off that leg. from what i learned of orthopedic medicine from my father who was an orthopedic surgeon... this could cause minor to severe problem with that knee due to him not listening to his doctor's orders. Jason is a danger to society for practicing faith healing which is considered to be no better than that of a magic ritual. He says a prayer and ritually lays his hands on the guy... that is one of the most familiar practices to pagan medicine in both the ancient world and the modern. what surprises me is the fact that if Jaosn can heal anything... why does he still wear glasses? why doesn't he heal the man with no legs? the simple answer is he isn't doing anything beneficial except making the person feel good. many people feel great just before they die of cancer or heart disease... ie. faith healing does not really work... unless you count bringing in parisheners every sunday to tithe away their income.
Jason Westerfield apparently knows everything about the ladies problems but is completely clueless when he gets to the guy in crutches. Jason is a con man but at least he's doesn't charge you... then again the first time is always free, isn't that right kids?
Jason Westerfield profiled a woman in the park. Told here she didn't need medication. He is a danger to society. He begins by saying he can help with a physical ailments and then says that even though he can't... he CAN heal the mind. BullSh*t! He told that poor lady her brain wasn't healthy. That's not the grace of God's servant hard at work that's the sound of an A**H*** telling a ailing woman that she isn't right in the head. That's an insult... and insulting another person is yet another thing that is against the Commandments.
it's also a sin for a man to have long hair...
take that white jesus paintings!
if god takes the least likely and the least qualified to do his work... then shouldn't he be using people like charles manson? guess what?... he didn't, he won't, he can't because God is only a conceptual philosophy and the Biblical incarnation of God.
try this on for size.
the Mayan predict that in the end times the earth will be flooded again. an Irish prophecy states that when the end of the world comes it will plunge Ireland under the sea. If these two civilizations are correct and a global flood occurs... then the Bible-thumpers will be left wondering why. To them God promised never to flood the Earth again. If the Earth floods... then he either lied, was misquoted, broke his promise, or doesn't exist.
I'm betting the latter.
God wants you to join in his work so you can attain power... which to me states that man has no power and God is apparently not as all powerful as he let on since he needs you to do his work for him.
should i even mention the fact that worshipping on a sunday is incorrect according to the Bible? Saturday is the day of rest and part of the stipulations state that you can not use fire (and by proxy electricity and combustion engines) on those days. therefore the lights break the commandment... driving to church breaks the commandment... and going a day late so you can put in overtime really goes out of it's own way to break the commandment.
Christians are so mindnumbingly dumb I'm surprised their God doesn't come down and wipe them out... wait, no I don't because the Biblical God is not real... and thankfully the Christians love to fight so many wars for their God and beliefs they end up killing themselves. It should either be known as 'Suicide by Proxy' or 'Natural Selection', which do you think the Christian's would choose?
and the question he never asked was why are all the miricles appearing in that one church? they got glitter, crackers, gems, faith healing... it sounds like a full theatrical production! They even have a stage, music equipment, microphones, loud speakers, lighting rigs, and charasmatic people to perform in front. Because an audience always pays attention to the elephant in the front of the room instead of the monkey in back throwing stones and glitter. Performers on stage also tend to bring in ringers who are in on the trick that is about to miraculously appear in front of or in the audience.
the poor kid in the ambulance sounds like he's suffering from vertigo or epilepsy. which is probably just beginning to become apparent and can beset the individual before quickly going away... as if bby a miracle.
people, please, use your brains for logic not the biochemicals that drug you during religious experiences.
they (chemicals like dopamine) distort your perception of reality and make you believe things that aren't true. Schizophrenics have some of the highest dopamine levels and they see, hear, and feel things that aren't really there all the time. and things that aren't there aren't real!
his idea that people that lie act more irrationally than those who don't is full of holes. if you believe his line of reasoning then white lies aren't lies their truth.
example one
-no, dear you aren't fat.
example two
-oh, poor baby, it's okay your pet isn't dead he's only sleeping.
people lie all the time... in the business word, in advertising, in times of war, in the church, and after swearing to tell the truth on the bible to god in courthouses all across this nation.
if it suits their purpose... people WILL lie.
do you really think second hand stories that aren't verified are true? maybe this is the reason the news hasn't covered these stories. they try to maintain journalistic integrity through verification... unlike the director of this film.
and the scene with the kid and the manna... why did the lady that gave it to him say it was Communion? Isn't Communion to be performed with wine and bread... NOT MANNA!?!?? Face it people it's not manna... it's a CRACKER!
oh Canon Andrew White did do something... he failed to successfully negotiate the release of a British hostage by the name of Ken Bigley. Obviously God was not on their side.
Canon Andrew White is not the official anglican priest of the whole of iraq... he's the only one. I have found no evidence of his ties to the pentagon. He only lived in the green zone and tries to mediate between Shia and Sunni tribes. boy this director is terrible at research!
anyone that believes the manna in the bible and hand obviously should be dumbstruck by the 'divine acts' performed by Penn & Teller. frisk those preachers for crackers and glitter a.s.a.p.!
glitter is not a sign of reproducing... it is a craft material... oh a cabbie didn't notice the preacher cover himself in flecks of glitter... go figure... he was concentrating on the road. seriously glitter is not proof of god! see the above comment.
ps. proof denies faith and without faith god is nothing.
if this is proof that God is real than God can no longer be believed in with faith and is therefore rendered obsolete by his own words.
guess "He's" more fallible than you thought.
@cherie
Educated Christains believe in Intelligent Design because they think the word 'Theory' in the scientific community means idea... which is only half true... a Scientific Theory has been tested and retested hundreds of times and has always been proven to be correct, like Evolution. Inteligent Design is not researched at all, or tested, because Christians are still trying to figure out how to research and test it... which they label as their "plan of attack" and is pointed towards not revealing if there is an intelligent designer but rather just to debunk evolution... and they have failed every time (see Kitzmiller v. Dover). You may be educated but the education you received was based on mythology. Myths are not real and therefore your education is also not real, which is to say incorrect. FYI - the earth revolves around the sun, the earth is round not flat, the stars are very distant suns spread out in a large spiral galaxy, dinosaurs lived for millions of years before mankind set foot on the planet, and you evolved from an ape. The Bible is one of the most violent books on the market and it's followers always preach peace but march into war and persecute everyone not on there side for being different. Whereas Jesus said, "Turn the other cheek," and, "Blessed are the Peacemakers." The Bible is anti-American and goes against our Bill of Rights because Christians believe there should be freedom of religion as long as their religion is the only one... AND THAT ISN'T FREEDOM! Christians also try to break the seperation of Church and State by trying to force Intelligent Design into the classroom. Meanwhile they break the commandments to put up their graven image of the Commandments into courthouses, their disobient kids are not killed by stoning, they hoard wealth more than they share with their neighbors (the national debts a great example of this); meanwhile their churches, governments, medicine, entertainment, and cuisine are all based off of so-called pagan cultures. 'Pagan' really means 'country dweller' not 'Satanist' but I'm betting you don't know Latin. Have fun living in your pagan culture and clinging to your outdated and horrible edited christian mythos... it isn't going to last.
if god is omnipotent then why doesn't he just remove their cavities? why does he need to perform dentistry, which includes precious metal. The truth is that most of these people forgot who they were and where they lived while they were being interviewed and it was discovered that they forgot they had gone to the dentist. There was no miracle of the golden teeth. for an investigative documentary filmmaker i find it hard to believe he just trusted the story and didn't try to research any background information that was available. it's a sin to lie and a sin not to question. i bet this guy believes the jews only have ten commandments also.
Lol! That's funny! There are quite a few extremely educated Christians in the world actually. But you go ahead and believe what feels safe to you.
If you are truly wanting to do God's will and ask Him what He wants for you to do, he will let you know in a way you will know is Him. He speaks to us in many different ways. Sometimes it's through the Bible, or a still quiet voice, or a sign, or a nudge towards something, etc. God uses many different ways to speak to us. We may not always hear, or may not always be listening, but eventually He gets through to us.
@Cherie
Oh I agree that GOD would love our appreciation, but I dont think its enough. Actions speak louder than words. For instance I dont think GOD appreciates people who go to church, preach, carry a bible around but then go around commiting significant conscious sins.
As for his will being obvious. I disagree. I mean I am pretty sure the clergy running the crusades and inquisition thought they were doing GOD's work. To them it seemed perfectly clear and they thought GOD would approve. But the commandment says "thou shalt not kill" not "thou shalt not kill unless you put a carry a rosary, put a red cross on your armor, and bless your weapons with holy water".
I think we both agree that we want to please GOD, and we are both conscious of wanting to follow the right path. We just have this debate to try to get to the truth of what righteousness is.
The bible says that Abraham acted on his faith and it was counted for righteousness.
i will believe this crap and in god if a kid in africa shows up with gold teeth.......no didnt think so
@Cherie~
You make many statements about God's will. I am genuinely curious... how do you come to know all this? That personal relationship thing...is it all that? Do you hear words? A voice? See signs? Sense answers or answered prayers intuitively? Through which of your human senses does God reveal himself to you?
I agree that you can't just sit by and do nothing, but that doesn't mean that He doesn't work miracles such as gold teeth, gold dust, feathers and gemstones. God gives us all a mission. Not all are like Rolland and Heidi Baker's. Some work for God closer to home...that doesn't make it "lazy lip service". Praising Him never is, thanking Him for all He has done never is, giving your life over to Him to live for Him never is. Yes, the devil is the great deceiver. You do need to be sure that what you're doing comes from God. But it's not hard to tell. God makes the answer clear and doing as He asks feels different from doing what the devil wants. It's entirely possible that He wants you to move mountains with your bulldozers and others helping you, but it doesn't mean that it can't be done with faith alone. And how was the argument avoided? I thought it was addressed pretty directly.
@Cherie
I have made the revelation that GOD exists outside the dimension of time. But that is a complete non sequitor to the argument about the mustard seed/faith quote. If anything it’s a distraction , clinging on to something else you know about GOD to insight some sort of awe to avoid the argument.
The reason I am adamant against solely “wishing/praying” for stuff is because it doesn’t really work that way. At least not entirely. You can’t just say that GOD works in mysterious ways as a scapegoat for his will. I highly doubt GOD likes lazy well wishers. Pray and ask for GODs help, sure, but you also have to do your part. For instance you cant pray for a cure for diabetes while stuffing your face with doughnuts.
Since you like referencing Biblical stories I would submit the story of the man who was drowning, praying for GOD to save him, rejecting all the help fisherman in their boats were offering ( because the stubborn person said hes waiting for GOD to help him). When he dies and goes to heaven he asks GOD why he didn’t help him. GOD says that he did, he sent repeated fisherman boats to save him. God did his part; the stubborn guy waiting for a magical rope or lifesaver to descend from the heavens, did not do his part(sort of how some religions are against medicine, blood transfusions, and stem cell therapy….those are gifts from GOD to preserve life).
And you say GOD does things according to his will and not mine nor my perception of his will. Well if you use your own Bible as reference, you would see that I will also argue that people might be worshipping the devil instead of GOD often times and you therefore have to be careful of whos will you are following. The devil is a sneaky one(the god of destruction, mass murder, genocides…..sounds like the wolf/Satan in sheeps/GODs clothing). The Bible specifically states in the old and new testament that no idols made of wood, metal, etc shall be adored. Go to most churches and you see the place littered with statues, crosses, etc and even little kneeling pads to pray to said man made objects. GOD giving people gold and gems?.....wow ! Sounds something like the devil would do to distract you. Whatever happened to teaching someone to fish rather than just giving him a fish?
And yes I have heard of the story of the person who gave their only penny…which in GOD eyes is more valuable than the 10% tithing people give. Why? Because GOD likes pennies? Obviously not. GOD is everything and created everything…he doesn’t want or need our pennies, millions of dollars, or elaborate churches. He wants our love as a force to transcend ourselves to get closer to GOD.
GOD gave us a will, rules ( moral and physical ones)and we must abide by those for our transcendence ( moral laws) and by default ( we can not change physical laws, only manipulate them). Just sitting around waiting for GODs charity, or talking out loud about how much you love him is all just lazy lip service. Have GOD in your mind and heart, sure,…..but you also have to show it with efforts/deeds done by your hands. Just be careful what deeds you do ( inquisition, the crusades, 9/11, gay hate, etc….pretty horrible ways of dwelling on hate rather than love…again hate keeps you stagnant or devolving…love is the path to transcendence).
@Cherie~
Wow. That's some smokin' witnessing, Cool Breeze! But exactly what are you saying?
@ oliarguello
Actually, it means exactly what it says. If you believe even a small amount, you can do so many things for God. It has nothing to do with machines and muscle. It's all how God chooses to do things. He may not do them the way you would expect Him to, but that's what makes Him God. He doesn't see things the way we do. There is no past, present and future for Him, they're all the same thing. You know how after something happens, you can look back at the situation and know exactly what should've been done? Well He sees the whole picture like that all the time, while we cannot. As for the gemstones appearing out of thin air, there's so much more to this movie than what you see. First of all, there was so much footage left out of it, and I for one am excited for when he releases it all. And second of all, if you were to watch it with the director's commentary, you would learn that the gemstones that were taken out of the boxes did not appear out of thin air at the church, but at the home of the poorest guy in that church who also happened to be the one who gave the most. ...kind of like in the Bible where men of riches gave many coins, while a poor woman gave only a few. Jesus said to them that the woman had given more to Him than any of the others, because she had given all that she had. God rewards those who love Him.
Groovy.
No worries, I thought your "2nd grader" comment was funny. My attempt was humorous too, but sarcasm is not always perceived online. I actually liked your poignant comments (in fact I have a similar philosophy about religion vs science....I go with the motto that two truths can not contradict each other; if they are both true then there must be a mechanism that compliments the two, otherwise the "truth" that is speculative needs to dismissed or refined.)
And I feel your pain. I had to add the "excuse the typos" remark becasue I noticed the atrocious typos and grammar mistakes after it was posted and could not edit my posting.
New Rule #112
I deserved that but give a guy a break. It was just a poor attempt at humor, not a serious critical assault. Besides I regretted it almost immediately and could not find a way to delete it. Apologies.
N.R.# 111
If you cant make a decent argument against someones thoughts/ideas, go ahead and disregard any pleads or excuses for typos and focus on the grammar to be a Grammar Nazi to show prowess, in at least, grammar/typing skills.
LOL!
P.S. Its a well known fact that Grammar, coupled with proper punctuation, has solved all of the Universe's mysteries.
I've got to share one more thing about science vs. faith--- which are only opposed to each other in one main thing...evidence. And it's this:
Periodically, when I've finally grasped some set of complex, unfamiliar ideas about a given element of science,(evolution for example), I have a transcendent experience that changes, literally, my consciousness, not just my view of how the world works. In other words, this journey to understanding, when successful, is actually enlightening in that it alters the way I perceive the world and think about it. My resistance to illogical nonsense is palpably sharpened.
I expect that faith-based belivers will find this odd or incomprehensible but it's real---I've experienced it. Also, I can report that this benefit is lasting and cumulative.
New Rule:
N.R.#110- Do not post comments with sweeping hubris in them if you can't write as well as a 2nd. grader.
**excuse the typos....all this was written at tiring 3:30 am.***
@Cherie
Ye of misplaced faith.
Its one thing to believe in GOD and have faith ( although I SERIOUSLY doubt people 2000 or 4000 years ago had something as complex as GOD and the Universe totally nailed down pa...instead such concepts were explained metaphorically in terms a sheep hearder or pot maker could understand). But its another thing to take things out of context and literal in ways that dont make any sense in this world.
Sure that mustard seed is a great quote.....but to be taken literally is where people start to lose its meaning and their sanity. And accepting this fact is called blasphemous for delusional fundamentalist.
That quote doesnt mean somoen can actually move mountains by sheer will if you beleive hard enough or pray hard enough....it suppose to mean that if you have the will, you can make i happen by getting peole together, building machines, moving all that dirt around etc. There is no such thing as magic. Like you know.....creating gold and rubys out of thin air. That makes zero sense. If you come abck with "anything is possible with GOD", then you are lying to yourself and other to satisfy a fear of being called a blasphemor for uestioning some BS that someone attached the word "Christian miracle" to.
So sure....have the faith of a mustrad seed to do great things by appealing to other to be great and loving....but dont lie to people with BS as means to an end. Jesus would not apporve of deception as a form of spreading his philosophy.
Ye of little faith.
He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you." (NIV)
If a person can do that much with that little of faith, imagine the difference we can make in the world! God will use us to do amazing things. You can think this is fake, or that we're all crazy, it doesn't harm us in any way. I love how the rest of the world thinks we're all nuts. It just makes it that much more fun when they realize the true power of God!!! He has a great sense of humor.
Peter Popoff claimed to work miracles through god also, until he was proven as a fraud. Marjoe Gortner was also a religious fraudster until he decided he was tired of deceiving people and came clean. My guess is that this is just another attempt to dupe the gullible on behalf of religion.
Since you mentioned Darwin, it's fallacy to think that you can't believe in God and accept evolution or the Big Bang or tectonic plates, continental drift and a 4.5 billion year old earth. However, all those scientific advancements in knowledge about the physical world, may make it difficult to believe in the inerrancy of scriptures whether they be the Bible or the Quran.
You're welcome to your own beliefs, but even Darwin believed in God in the end.
@Cherie~
I'm glad for you if you're happy with your beliefs. I was devout once, but I couldn't sustain belief in something which had no evidence of being real. What's wrong with that? Scepticism is an authentic gift that only human beings have developed. Why would you want to relinquish something like that? It makes you human. Oh well, you know best what you need. Good luck with the belief in things unseen and hope of things to come.
@Cherie
Good for you. Well said.
It's sad that so many people want proof that this is real. Where's the proof that God is real? It's called FAITH people!!! Anything is possible with God. I feel sorry for you, that you have so little of it. God works so many miracles and who are we to put limitations on HIM?
I couldn't finish watching it. It's the most pathetic Christian testimony documentary I've ever seen. Shame on the filmmaker. This is why people privately laugh at fundamentalists. What a bunch of self-delusional rubes.
@Follower of Jesus
If you can conjure up gold dust will....mind making some and sending some my way?
It will help convince that you are not jsut making stuff up and it will help out a lot. Thanks ;)
Wait, god died? Why was I not informed!?
Proof that God is alive and working today. I have seen miracles like this for the last 15 years of my life and experienced gold dust appearing on my hands. IT IS REAL! God is exciting and ready for revival.
this is a joke rigth? seriusly? i hope nobody takes this stuff as facts, all that is eksplainebel for even the dummest of people. is the start of the movie the film maker says " why wud thise people lie, when they dont gain enything from it? " that is just not true, just as an eksample those people making "mana" = dry bread, they get more people to belive thire crap and so more people in there church and then more donations, money from the goverment and more WTF .....sorry this is to f--ked up
bullsh*t propaganda for the gullible
@CC
If these miracles were true that would be great. But the worst sin is not blasphame towards the holy spirit, its believers who resort to lies in order to convert non believers.
Mnay plot holes and illogical nonsense has already pointed in this film...but lets make believe an say this is all real.Why in the world would GOD create miracles in the form of gold and gems....in church?????? Didnt Jesus overturn all the money exchange tables for a very similar reason?
I dont know which deity that church is worshiping, but I would much rather follow the one closer to Jesus/buddhist/hindi actual teachings of love, humility, truth, and spirituality from within not from materialistic shiny objects
I know some of the people in this video, and they see these things every day. I know for a fact that none of this is faked, nor would any of these people report a lie. The professor who made the movie did not believe in miracles either, until he started to see them everywhere he went. I'm happy the video is being shown, but the comments section is unnecessary here. Too many Philistines, who do not know the Bible and what it teaches, blaspheme the Holy Spirit, the only unforgiveable sin.
@Poop:
Not particularly insightful but I enjoyed that nonetheless. "Praise the load" had me giggling like a highschooler.
pure propaganda for aunt and uncle "pastors".
the question is - what do they benefit from fake manna, fake gold teeth, fake gold dust, etc?
old and gullible people turning over their life's saving to these vultures.
this "film" maker has one objective and that is to make you think "gawd" is real.
guess what folks - their ain't no pie in the sky when you die.
PRAISE THE LOAD!
there are two evils in this world.
govt. and religion.
both should be taken out back and executed.
what a waste of my time!!
ok ! i have a friend that has a problem !
heal her and then im not coming to say how stupid and evil you are for the world!
well! who is going to take care of this ? gaithouri at gmail . com
I don't really want to finish this one, as I don't believe it is vast enough to keep me intrigued. But, whatever needs to be done to help people believe in themselves, I'm in for. I don't really see reason for sprinkling glitter on a pastor per say, but i do see reason in people getting wealth, that they can use in there positions of power or influence to help those who are in need. So i say.........Get the gem stones out of the pretty boxes, sell em and help some people!
It is true that this is not a matter of talk, but power. Not the power we have all grown up with around us. But the power of love in ones beliefs, no matter what they are, to help humanity and earth in its whole, rather then individualistic greed.
So if these findings (miracles) are true, hopefully we will see people using this to help better humanities state.
What an inspiring documentary! It's wonderful to see the power of love and faith moving in and around our world. I truly believe love is the answer. Love of ourselves, God and everyone and everything.
From the ancient Hawaiian healing Ho'oponopono mantra I leave you with this...I'm sorry, please forgive me, I love you thank you!!!
@casper158
I have done DMT as well numerous times. You see some incredible things and realize some profound things.....the problem is bringing any of that back. You can bring back the intangible ideas and revelations, but nothing physical.
I have seen healing as well, but this documentary is nonsense. Just because some things do exist otuside of the mainstream and you have made some revelations about life does not mean everything you see is real.
These are clearly tricks and lies in the documentary. Just because someone carries a cross and bible and swears to you they are not lying does not mean they are not lying. be a skeptical believer at all times to seek the truth.
Ive smoked enough DMT to know that anything is possible. Gems, gold, and manna manifesting are hardly far fetched. Ask anyone who has seen a UFO, there are things that are so profoundly real, that occur in such a way that it sounds totally in-credible and outrageous, but to those of use who have witnessed healing or angels or even dimensional bending, it really is about being humble, and being like a child. Whether you are christian or not, this kind of thing happens every day. Like I said, I came into some time/space bending confirmation of the supremely kooky nature of reality from working with endogenous and exogenous DMT release. I claim no faith except that GOD is ALL. ONENESS!! Its really humbling to know that in the mainstream view, this all looks and sounds like insanity. gotta love it! :) love you all brothers and sisters!
I loved this film. To open up an unbelievers heart and show them that they are loved, that the love can be with them throughout their lives...
I do not see atheists visiting the gypsies, nor loving the unwanted children, nor travelling to remote lands to give hope to those without hope. Quite the opposite. The governments that send medical aid, vaccines, food, are the same governments that send guns and grenades.
yeah, the mannah looked like crushed crackers,
yeah, the whole gems thing.
Yeah, the gold dust....
But I do know that miraculous healing does occur.
This is not a science documentary, so stop looking for explanations.
really awesome video!!
... I believe that God can do great things, I know cause I have experienced it.
God is so Awesome!!! <3 :)
about a minuit in, i could tell its full of s@#$.
My pessimism extends to the point of even suspecting the sincerity of the pessimists.
—Jean Rostand
I never know what to tell people about my religious belief in brief conversation; I can't really even get started painting a picture without some time I guess. The documentary doesn't prove anything to me; and there's plenty of people commenting expressing their disapproval or even disgust; but I have healing testimonies that affect how I feel about the theme in general, apart from the film. As an atheist I wasn't really offended by the film; but before I was an atheists I would have been offended having grown up a Christian. Now as a Christian I'm not offended by atheists or the film.
I'm skeptical of many of the claims ... which does not mean I"m skeptical of God's ability to do miracles. I've encountered a few miracles in my life-time, so at one level, I'm a believer. However,
what our film maker failed to do was follow the money ... I think he would have found the source of many of the "miracles" on which he reported. I'm very sorry that this film didn't advance the Gospel of Christ, and may have actually turned some from the faith. It's like preaching on the street corner ... the only person convinced that it is a good thing to do is the person preaching.
this is some ridiculous sh*t right here. so many lmfao moments in this doc (if you can call it a doc)
Jessyca: Would you actually like to meet this "mysterious universe"? He's a lot more "personal" than you think; His name is Jesus. If you are interested in "supernatural" encounters of all kinds (all good), I suggest watching Sid Roth like I do on-line. 30 minutes per show. That was very interesting about your teeth. Do keep us informed as I'd like to hear what the dentist says.
Charles B.
...So here it is...
I'm a happy, honest, respectful girl who was raised by christian grandparents, a spiritual mother, a brilliant but somewhat jaded athiest father and some peace loving bhuddist uncles. Personally I've enjoyed reading gnostic texts, learning about ayahuasca and medicinal shamanism, practicing kundalini meditation and recently, the deeply profound writings of Tich Nat Han; a vietnamese bhuddist monk. Due to this veritable shmorgasboard of opinions I was able to enjoy a broad and beautiful upbringing; I am more than willing to accept that everyone walks their own sacred path in the great mystery of life.
With that said, what happened to me tonight very bizarre. I watched the first three sections of this movie, made a judgement call that from what I had seen it seemed to be a rather biased interpretation of christianity. Also the miracles associated with the first half were strange; the gems and glitter were a little materialistic for my understanding of the deeper teachings of christ.
I turned it off and sat thinking about the gold teeth. I have had most of my teeth filled with dark silver fillings; my teeth have always been very succeptible to cavities, c'est la vie. Out of a strange curiousity I pulled my mind into a calm state and focused on my mouth. I felt something shift and tingle. I went to the mirror, and looked at my teeth. All of my fillings turned gold. I believe there are about nine. I thought I may have knocked a screw loose, so I went over to my Dad (the athiest)'s house and asked him to take a look and tell me what color they are. He verifies (before I told him the circumstances) that in fact, they're golden. He is currently trying to find some way to debunk this 'miracle', but is coming up with nothing able to refute it. I'm making an appointment with a dentist tomorrow, but I'm very certain that they have changed; they've been in my mouth at least 10 years in a very different shade.
Now, in my life-long ponderings I've come to believe in the individual's power to heal themselves and others. Alchemy is one of those middle grounds where I've had no personal experience to sway me either way, until tonight. I do not think that this phenomenon has anything to do with obedience to a certain denomination or historical figure. I am just deeply touched at the bizarre and beautiful nature of this gift, and really rather pleasantly confused that this mediocre twenty minutes of a documentary became the springboard to some completely out of left field supernatural dentistry.
Thanks mysterious universe!
O.o
@Ryan:
You are not speaking the truth, you are venting an opinion. Your rhetoric does not apply to the situation, as such, repeating it ad verbatim does not help your case.
Do you even have an actual reason behind your message, or do you just want to inform the world of your opinion?
If you will not hear the truth, no one can tell you
@Ryan C:
You oversimplify too much. It's not about being affraid of answering to a higher power, it's about the fact that this higher power is far too unsubstantiated to accept as fact.
"If we witness anything that is beyond the human minds undertanding it is considered false"
Incorrect, for instance, black holes go beyond understanding, it's a place where natural laws get warped and no longer "make sense", much the same with certain aspects of Quantum Mechanics. Understanding is not inherent to factual data.
"If you will not hear the truth, no one can tell you"
Name me one argument that is universally applicable that would signify your message as truth. Just one.
Just because people reject an idea, doesn't mean it's based on ignorance or fear of the unknown. If we were to persue every idea (however insubstantiated, like yours) as if it were true, we wouldn't be where we are today.
If you can't back up your claims, noone will listen, and they shouldn't.
Why is it that every time there is a great move of God there are always people right there to denouce it? Judging most of the reactions on this page it seems more to me that WE as people are afraid to answer to a higher power that we do not understand. If we witness anything that is beyond the human minds undertanding it is considered false. Jesus performed healings and such and becuase he was not abiding by the rules created by man he was ridiculed and eventually killed. Jesus was also questioned and asked to prove that he was the son of God. Anything that is of God and shows face in this world will be persecuted. I am seeing the same pattern here.
If you will not hear the truth, no one can tell you.
Randy bites and crunches down the finger of god, much like a tortilla or a corn chip...
Eat ME, god!
@Jay
The Book of Randy: Chapter Oak and Storm:
"For Randy shall eat of the flesh of the followers of this christ. Yea! His fangs shall drip with their gore!
They will weep as he laughs and hunts them like prey...
Be afraid on the full of the Moon, or when the Veil is thin at Samhain..."
But, you know... what YOU said was sweet, too...
INCREDULOUS
Mark 16:17-18
"And these signs shall follow those who believe: In my name they will cast out devils, they will speak with new tongues; "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means harm them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
"Canon Andrew White--the Anglican priest for all Iraq--or something like that. It doesn't add up. For one thing, an Anglican priest in charge of an area other than his or her parish, is in charge of a diocese or province--they're called "Bishops". As to using Saddams swimming pool to perform baptisms--Anglicans are pedo-baptists--they baptize babies, which does not prevent adults from being baptized but they don't immerse the body--they sprinkle the head with water and you don't need a pool for that-- a bowl of water is sufficient. Whatever Andrew White is, he's certainly not an Anglican priest--even if he said he was--and why is he so heavily sedated?
Oyster crackers! Are you serious?
I think it looks like crushed "Puffed Wheat".
The mana is a product called "oyster crackers" that have been sprayed with water, a light spray, then weighted with paper.
If gemstones were to supernaturally materialize I wouldn't expect them to be 'cut' gemstones according to a specific 'cutting' style unique to a particular school of gem cutting-suggesting, of course, they were in human hands before "spontaneous materialization".
The manna? Why on earth wouldn't they have it tested to see what it's made of? It looks simple and the tests would be equally simple. I've truly always wanted to know what manna looked and tasted like. Didn't manna go "bad" after a known amount of time? I forget-honestly- but the question's worth asking.
I am a thorough "supernaturalist" whether I like it or not because I'm a Christian. Never-the-less, I question the miracles displayed so far as being largely in vain--gold teeth?? C'mon. The man in the crutches? He claims his injury was the result of a car accident. Being young he was likely in the middle of litigation involving millions of $'s. Well, he just had his lawsuit destroyed. That injury was worth about $10 million. If the defense against his litigation gets hold of that video, his claim is worthless. I suspect he *really* could walk before the healing and was walking against the advice of counsel--and on video too--yikes!.
It's for reasons like this the Roman Catholic Church will subject persistent, individual claims of supernatural healing involving Roman Catholics to intense scrutiny by experts. The experts are sometimes referred to as "devil's advocates" and it's where the phrase originates. The RC Church does record and acknowledge supernatural healings--the cases are rare but they do happen and I believe it.
(I'm not R.C. btw)
I've not watched the entire video (I don't have the time) but I have a funny feeling it's going to end with the producer announcing that the viewers had a big trick pulled on them.
this should be removed from the files ..
I can't see why people who viewed this are cursing. Should I assume they know no God? If you believe in one, you would find it not only possible but probable that God shows his existence through unreasonable actions we call miracles.
I've seen a lot of cheap, obviousely fake, and point less stuff from the religees, but this takes the cake. I am stunned, I mean wtf? Their are people that buy this stuff? Come on, no way- I refuse to believe that. Even the people on this thread who said they believe, I know somewhere in the back of their minds they are screaming- B*@ SH&t!!! If that is not the case, PLEASE let me believe it is.
@avidseeker,
Did you notice near the end of that scene the old guy lifted his head to see what was going on, even though he was supposedly in a trance? He couldn't resist looking. It was like whoever sprinkled the gold dust missed the target, and he wanted to see what they were laughing at. It was like a scene from a bad sword and sandals film, where one of the actors who was supposed to be dead on the battlefield looks up to see if it's over.
I love the gold dust on the guy's crotch lol...but wheres the "hundreds" of people raised from the dead? Really? Surely hundreds would make the news..thats practically a resurrection epidemic?
What I learned from this film is that aging middle class suburban Americans get jewel and gold dust in their fluorescent light lit churches, poor people in Mozambique, and the Roma in Bulgaria don't get anything. Go figure.
As for the healings, they were kind of anti-climactic, if you know what I mean. The Muslim woman who was deaf should have showed signs of being startled at suddenly being able to hear. I mean, if it was me, I would probably have dropped that infant. And the Black guy on crutches at Yale, and the mentally ill woman bumming bus fare, their performances were just not what I would expect. And as other mentioned, no followup. Maybe some of them died the next day, for all we know.
Still, this was a pretty good documentary, in terms of story, filmography and ethnography. I wish that Jason had given the old homeless guy at the end a fiver.
Me too, that's why I'm glad God still heals. We saw someone healed in church just today. He came in with a back so painful he couldn't even drive, and left playing "airplane" with my kids! God is good.
this made me sad for the human race
drop some gems and gold on the billion people on the planet that are hungry or diseased ...these people think there so special that god would dust them in gold ...ive never seen something so unf--king nessesary and arrogant in my life !! gold teeth..new eyeballs..talking mutes!! it absolutly blows my mind that people fall for this and then somehow incorperate themselves into the lie.
churches dont build themselves ..there built with donations from the people that are being fooled. before i decided that beleiving in god wasnt filling up any of the space in my head that was starving for knowledge ..i had decided that i didnt want to have anything to do with a god that can let so many people suffer..my 2 yearold cousin and her her dad were hit by a regular guy that fell asleep at the wheel, in the night ..they burned to death and the idea of a god that could allow that to happen made me see how increadably weak and powerless he allowed himself to be ..i would gladly follow satan into the pits of hell if i thought that that existed either then go to a heaven ruled by a gold loving..jealous, vain god that only helps in questionable, pointless acts of self rightous decidence..that make the word miricale sound like a nick nack you can pick up at the dollar store.
well thats not all i have to say but im done!.. now im gonna pray that god edits this rant for proper capitals and punctuation because thats seems like the kind of miricale he would vigorously waste his all knowing infinite power on while the entire world is teedering on the brink ......faith is just hope thats gone bad because you were to ignorant to find out whats real and possible !..impossibly fake is what i call your faith and thats real!
People with such doubt will never find God. Like in Peter Pan, if you don't BELIEVE you can fly, then you wont. end of story.
From the narrator "I can assure you they aren't crazy"
And you are qualified to make this evaluation because you have a degree in psychology from nowhere. Or did god give it to you?
God gave me a full platinum grill, a fur coat, a cane, a pimp hat with a feather and a limp!
I can think of some people who lost there gold teeth....in the holocaust.
From the narrator "god has a real sense of humor."
Yeah giving the people of the richest country in the world gold while letting millions die of starvation is hilarious!
The gems have no imperfections because they are not real gems. They are not selling them because they are worthless.
Oh this is just too good! He actually used the word LOGIC!!!
I can't even do this anymore...you just got to watch this video yourself.
The video stopped working after the kid walked on his still sprained ankle. I would have told that guy anything to get him to go away also.
If this type of phenomenon, incantations and witchcraft and talking to spirits, actually worked to heal people then it would stand up to scientific scrutiny. If it worked then we would have no need for surgeons and hospitals would be full of voodoo healers and David Blaine would be the head doctor.
What a load of boll*%*s! There's one born every minute. Jesus (insert one or several middle names) Christ.
this is rediculous... they are insane
B.S. God does not fill teeth with gold or slip bread into bibles. If you check out the bread in the bible you can see clearly that it is oyster crackers, dampened probably with a sprayer, misting the bread and sticking it together, then pressing it on absorbent paper, probably with the weight of the same bible, then lying, (for what they feel is a good reason, that is: the "end justifies the means") and claiming God puts magic bread in a bible, fakers. The people who write into this blog saying it is about miracles and we are too full of it to believe, because they have personally experienced miracles in their own lives have to be among the dumbest, most gullible folks in town. Wake up fools. Religious fakes abound. They always have. They use people like you as playthings. They love your simple "faith" because it comes with no common sense so they can steal from you easily. You are their pawns. You give them money. You give them a life and a living. How do televangelists own personal Lear jets? Ten car garages? Mansions? Mercedes'? Olympic sized swimming pools? Even their own globe circling satellite? Your money. Follow the money. Wake up. Throw them out of the Temple.
This film is a way for us; America to see and understand the Power of Love, in how God moves. Do you have Faith to move a mountain? After watching this I believe That Love is the greatest of them all. But what is this thing we call Love, for me it's Uncondistional Love for all even the ones who try to keep us down, in everything we do. And for all the people how don't beleive after seeing this film, one day they will be at the right place, at the rite time and then with their own eyes they will see and know that I Am God Aloha
@Oliarguello:
Your skepticism pleases me.
@Daniel
Were you being sarcastic?
If not, well then you should be more skeptical. Things than can be EASILY debunked, are more than likely just tricks that can be recreated.
I did not see a single thing on this document that cant be recreated or just a trick with a few people in on it or lying. Just an example...you did see that hand pass over that mans crotch when suddenly gold appeared right? Or why is it that the gems ALWAYS appear off camera? If it happens so often you should be able to capture, on film, the gems manifesting out of nothing. As for the gold teeth....if its a procedure by prayer, as they claim, you should be able to easily capture the before, during, and after effects in a continuous scene without editing.
Do the likes of
Chris Angel
David Copperfield
David Blaine
Penn & Teller
blow your mind and you think what they do is real? They can do the tricks in this video in their sleep.
this stuff really happens ive seen it with my own eyes
@sarah
having a connection to GOD is fine, and if you have had some personal experiences thats great. I have as well, but what most people are knocking is this documentary itself. Its utter nonsense.
The guy doesnt even try to investigate any claims. He just tapes whats he wants you to see and adds ridiculous propaganda like commentary of "Wow did you see that? Amazing"...."These people have no reason to lie so it MUST be true".
A simple simple simple test would have been for him to take the gigantic gems to a licensed appraiser that can be looked up by the public. Nope.... instead he did a voice over saying that some guy in the crowd at his congregation said that he " has no idea what they are and they are too perfect" ( thats an oxymoron...how can you not know what something is and evaluate it as perfect?).
And this can be said about all the scenes in this so called documentary.
Check out to a documentary called "A Question of Miracles: Faith Healing". It shows the other side of the coin of claims like these. Just because miracles happen in the world, it doesnt mean that just anyone holding a bible/cross and can quote scripture, is being genuine. In fact such purposely deviant liars are the second WORST type of believers ( second to inquisition/crusade/jihad type believers).
I think that many of the coments expressed are very sad.my family and myself have had god both heal and speak us. I pray gods grace will come and bless you all
OK-- that wasn't me...
I agree with that "Randy" but I didn't write that... I don't think... I was drinking pretty heavily this weekend... (LOL!)
Wake up people, there is no evidence for any god... Let alone your particular brand.... I love it when a religious person says another religious persons beliefs are crazy.... Wake up, all religious beliefs are crazy because they lack evidence!!!
This was so refreshing and Biblical. I think it is clear that the film maker and the people in the film are simply showing what they've witnessed. If they are faking they the greatest actors I've ever seen. And how would the film maker been able to afford that many good actors? Its really up to you - decide its fake or offensive and reject it - or have an open mind and let what it has to offer soak in.
My take on religion is this; believe in whatever or whoever you want, just don't kill me if I happen to disagree.
I didn't mind the documentary, but it was produced by a Christian for those who are already Christians, especially in the charismatic movement. Both my conservative Christian and Atheist friends decry this as a hoax. My charismatic Christian in-laws loved this documentary. Funny we all have one thing in common, we love documentaries.
No doubt this could be supernatural, there are certainly supernatural events in the world. However; this is not from the God of the Bible, rather it is a fulfillemnt of what Christ warned us about in Matthew 24:24 - "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall decieve the very elect."
Christ is saying that only the truely saved Christians will be the ones "NOT" decieved. What all these people shared, whether they agree or not, was an incomplete salvation - a weak comitment, easily swayed, easily decieved.
If anything it confirms the incredible accuracy of the words of Jesus Christ...this is the work of supernatural demonic activity....this is Satan, appearing as the light, misleading and pretending to be the God of Bible with people weak to understand the difference and now too indulged to ever see the true light.
Educational for exposing the power and deception of Satan.
Awesome! Thank you so very much!!!
Couldn't bring myself to sit through this very stupid film. It's maker thinks that his aunt and uncle are infallible and incapable of error or illusion. All those pie-hole close-ups in the first ten minutes were disgusting. Again, really stupid - not recommended.
i almost killed myself at this garbage!
I LOVE JESUS!! HE CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS WHETHER YOU THINK IT'S GOOD OR NOT! HAHAHA All you silly guys and gals should just ask Jesus if he's real and then proceed to experience the Joy of living in the Truth of real FREEDOM!
Freedom from being self protective and judgmental, freedom from anger and life shattering fear of "what if i'm wrong". JUST LET GO!
LOVE you all!
The fact you searched for this video and watched it means you're about to get possessed by Jesus Himself!!!
This is f***ed up...
@oliarguello... not D-K, sorry again.
I acknowledge and understand what you have written in your last post. My point is though, if you are looking for change to certain laws across the world to make the world a more civil, more respect filled world, then religion is NOT working(even if it claims it's intentions are to do so). Now that is not something I made up, that is a fact. Ever so slowly religion is evolving from it's hardened roots to flow with science and popular public opinion. But that does NOT excuse RELIGION as a whole for keeping those wheels from turning faster. This is my major disdain toward religion. I don't ignore the fact I'd rather be living in a Christian cultured nation than a Muslim cultured one, but that is just one step. I have that next step to take and that step leads me to rationalism, scientific discovery and progress, which at present is unfairly being stunted by religious sectors.
@BJ
Ah you are right I stand corrected. I was separating church and state and posed an ideal for lawful and religious people. I was thinking globally and should have more adequately said "prosperity of humanity" not "prosperity of its followers".
But that same fallacy then also applies for the lawful prosperity of the citizens, i should have said humanity. Interesting you didnt quote that one ;)
But notice I said any dogma preached should be for prosperity. The central Idea behind the majority of religions ( ask any non literalist or fundamentalist) is that of love and peace. I think a lot of literalist, fundamentalist, and power/money hungry leaders abandon the central idea of love and peace and interpret the details in a way that feeds the ego and therefore justifies their hate and rage stemming from fear of what they are not familiar with (ignorance).
For instance lets take the gay marriage thing and Christianity. The underlying theme of Jesus teachings is that of love ( for GOD, your neighbor, and yourself). Why would ANYONE have a problem with two people wanting to be together because of love? 2,000 years ago gay relationships were unheard of , and any gay activity was seen as pointless lust and therefore perverted and debacherous.
Any dogma in the Bible outside of what Jesus said is basically saying dont do anything debacherous and perverted and specifically citing homosexuality among other things. All Jesus said on the matter was dont do anything simply to satisfy the flesh. Both gay and heterosexuals are capable of being guilty of that sin, but also both gay and heterosexual people are capable of profoundly loving relationships.
This is jsut one example of abandoning the spirit of the central idea and picking apart details.
Ah, no problem then.
@ D-K
Your right, sorry. Not sure why I put your title there it should have read:
First of all that is not perfectly true oliarguello, “if everyone in religion stayed true to their teachings, and any dogma preached was for prosperity of its followers, there would be a lot more peace”. There would be a whole bunch of people getting slaughtered for minor indiscretions(not in today’s evolved blend but word for word as you stated I fear this would be the case).
Apologies.
@BJ
Everything he adressed to me specifically made sense, I was using a double standard.
"“if everyone in religion stayed true to their teachings, and any dogma preached was for prosperity of its followers, there would be a lot more peace"
I never said that ^
Actually one more thing I'd like to add is:
I converse on these and alike forums because I enjoy it. It makes me think more and even research more into what I believe. As I'm sure it does for most of you. I think it is the perfect way to few documentaries like this. I don't purposely seek out people to try and convert. I just enjoy thinking and then applying those thoughts into words.
I like to think religion has a good role in society but for me, any negative things I hear from religious leaders and alike it really grinds me. As it does when Dawkins goes to far sometimes, and so on. But in such an established modern world as 2010 in my eyes it's religion, possibly not even holding progress back but I see it directly responsible for unnecessary sufferings today. Again that is not pointed at religious people like yourself Keith but I think religion as a whole needs to take a step back and eventually claim responsibility for some of today's issues.
Let me clarify my second to last paragraph. I simply say that because they were not following an atheistic teaching but in comparison certain religious groups are. Now that said, I do restrain myself from saying it's on overwhelming majority of the religious world that belief in keeping marriage strictly between a man and a women. I mean the votes here speak from themselves in the US - 'The bill was passed by Congress by a vote of 85-14 in the Senate'(Defense of Marriage Act 1996). Now I have no basis to claim that it was religion was the driving force, yet one can only speculate. Let me point out that same sex marriage laws do not affect me personally at all, it just hurts my brain. So there is no personal driving force behind my anger at this.
Okay. Okay.
First of all that is not perfectly true D-K, "if everyone in religion stayed true to their teachings, and any dogma preached was for prosperity of its followers, there would be a lot more peace". There would be a whole bunch of people getting slaughtered for minor indiscretions(not in today's evolved blend but word for word as you stated I fear this would be the case).
Second of all I didn't read anything Keith, where you have told me who is pushing the agenda(against gay marriage). Let me stat again I know YOU and a lot of other "Christians" are not responsible but religion is. That is the point of being anti-theist. Not agreeing with the teachings of any or all religions. Again and again it's not personal against you or others who do not campaign and stat outrages things on T.V and in print to spread and popularize oppression. I'm not sure what I can say for you to understand that. I mean I think I get it. Anti-theists can't debate current events involving religion, even though there is NO logic behind there statements against e.g. gay marriage. I understand it's logic to them, as that is what some are taught but when it turns into holding down the secular society trying to go about their lives then that is religious oppression. I will not change my stance on this.
After all this I know it will go back to Stalin, Mao possibly Hitler or Pol Pot and them following the atheist scripture to commit genocide and more. That is used to deflect from current issues.
I am not trying to get into a heated debate, if that's the way you see it then I come to the conclusion that there is no defending current day atrocities UNDER the name of god/god's.
*gasp*
I have been pidgeonholed!
Wrongly!
Woe is me!!
(For future reference, i'm an agnost) ;)
Well said, D-K. We can all use a little illumination from time to time and it often seems to come from surprising places. Even atheists! I kid. too. :)
@Keith
Indeed, emotion is best left at the door when discussing subjects with such profound implications. I never, EVER, succumb to emotion, but I was locked in a deathstruggle (lol) with another commenter on this site and irritation seemlessly merged into irrational anger.
It made me want to vent.
Venting is irrational and stems from the incapability to process and rationalize/relativate certain situations. In the future, I should refrain from commentsection-hopping (in the same subject) before I've effectively concluded the other discussion.
I too, hate it when people get emotional and abandon reason, and will look into it not happening again (to me).
Kinda stings that it took a christian to show me the light though..
I kid.. I kid.. You know I kid..
thanks Oliarguello, and thanks D-K, that's incredibly honorable of you. I seriously do not come on here looking for a fight and actually I get disappointed when one finds me, instead of a useful dialogue.
@BJ
I am going to have to side with Keith Wilson on this argument. Like he said many people have this argument all the time. I will attempt to keep my point short since I have gone at great lengths to describe it in detail but I think a quick thesis and a comparative metaphor will explain it.
It really comes down to the corruption of man. All ideals become corrupt especially when an ideal gains momentum. A power structure attracts a certain type of person, who primarily lusts for power , and uses the ideals of the power structure for his means to gain the ends regardless of the manipulation or misery he intends on creating ( sociopaths). Such a person doesn’t believe in what hes saying, that person is simply looking for a large group to manipulate and will say things that will appeal to the built in audience ( sound like any religious evangelist or atheist politicians you know?)
A second notion I think I must propose about the corruption of man is that just because someone takes an oath, or whatnot , does not mean they are magically bound to it. Sure there are atrocities in the name of religion, but arent those people ignoring the peace and love messages and taking specific things out of context ,or culturally outdated values, to validate their bloodlust or power grabs?
A priest may preach this and that but he is not bound to anything he says ( Haggard preached against homosexuality because he said they are all going to hell…then he gets caught with a male prostitute while doing drugs)and the Pope pretty much defended gay pedophile priests. A lawmaker can also pass legislation prohibiting this or that but he is also not bound to anything magically ( the ex NY Mayor was trying to shutdown prostitution rings left and right meanwhile he was paying $40,000 a night for hookers).
So sure if everyone in religion stayed true to their teachings, and any dogma preached was for prosperity of its followers, there would be a lot more peace. Also if politicians and citizens followed all the laws and laws were made that protects citizens and help them prosper there would be a lot more peace. The underlying problem is not religion or law…..its the greedy, destructive, selfish leaders and individuals who look for any justification to allow their negative thoughts to manifest into action.
@Keith.
You are correct, I was wrong.
I just came fresh from debating an issue, and was emotionally fueled. It's quite rare for me to become emotional and spout irrational claims, and I am amazed by the narrow-mindedness of my comment, and the fact that it relates to nothing, while commenting on everything.
There are 2 coherent thoughts in it, but they are both a subjective analasys concerning my own local demographic, and my personal opinion of the meddling of religion in political issues. Both issues are severely unsubstantiated in my comment, and to reflect on what made me put it up in the first place is embarassing to me.
I still think those are very real issues that need to be worked out, but they hold no place in your debate with BJ and are otherwise irrelevant as the context of my comment isn't evident.
I retract my previous comment. I would further implore you ignore it completely, as it is utterly without merit.
Quite the slip-up indeed.
Gah.. nobody's perfect..
Okay guys, I'm going to bow out here because this is progressing exactly as I predicted it would. Now the tone has gotten angry and I'm not interested in that. It's frustrating to me in these conversations that there is a double standard. I'm crazy for suggesting this - and please read carefully note the exact statement, not what you might want to read into it, "The Christian faith writ-large is no more to blame for all the things you noted than Atheism is to blame for Stalin’s atrocities." The point I'm making is that Atheism is not a monolithic representative structure...so therefore it's not fair to judge any one atheist's beliefs on the acts of a madman. Accordingly, Christianity IS NOT a monolothic structure either. The Catholic Church may be, but that's another matter altogether. D-K, you are arrogantly setting out standards based on...what? You are telling me on what basis I'm allowed to reason. On what authoritative source do you base this broad statement, "Religion is based on the fact that it’s propegators have a direct line to god or speak in his stead, and as such they can claim divinity in their rules. that’s what religion is based on, and it’s what religious people conform to. If christianity says gays are immoral/bad, than every christian is saying that. This is not a generalization, this is the fundamental rule on which religions are built."
"if christianity says..." who is this mythical and representative "christianity?" Christians are so incredibly varied in their beliefs that this kind of concept just isn't possible. I'm sorry but you can't just foist this reductionist logic on me or on this debate. I don't care what the pope says. Please explain to me why I am accountable for the words of the Pope, when I do not believe any such thing as the pope ought to exist? It is simply poor logic to say that a system of belief which has been and is being interpreted very very differently by millions of people over two millenia ought to reducible to something that you can completely cast out as evil and destructive simply because you want to. Atheism as a system of thought with growing cohesion could easily fall prey to the same bad logic. I am suggesting a fair playing field where we do neither.
BJ, you said it yourself! Exactly the point I was making. You said, "that is so, so old and is to pass over the fact they were first and foremost ruthless dictators with a communist ideology that took advantage of an unstable and shifting world power." This precise argument can be used for nearly every abuse of Christianity by a state power. You are right, and that's my point. It is just as true to say..."that is so, so old and is to pass over the fact they (Crusaders, inquisitionists, etc.) were first and foremost ruthless dictators..." I don't understand how in your anger you can ignore the plain and simple logic I'm trying to lay out.
You guys are doing EXACTLY what I said would happen. You are not carefully reading what I said and then thoughtfully responding. You are pulling already decided polemics out of a bag and throwing them at the board. That doesn't help anyone, unless it helps you to blow off steam.
To answer you BJ, yes we all ought to have "raw nerves" about all forms of injustice but obviously we all favor one over another at times based on our circumstance and situation.
I'm really sorry that this conversation has drifted toward the angry polemic route. For a bit there I think we were hearing one another and it was productive. But I'm feeling like it's more of a shouting match now that has lost sense of logic and decency. Blame me for that if you like, but I would attribute it to the fact that you guys think you have me and some monolithic (and mythic in fact) concept pegged and nothing I say will actually be thoughtfully considered.
Peace.
I'd just like to add onto BJ's statement that the argument of religious leaders not speaking for the entire religion is false.
Religion is based on the fact that it's propegators have a direct line to god or speak in his stead, and as such they can claim divinity in their rules. that's what religion is based on, and it's what religious people conform to.
If christianity says gays are immoral/bad, than every christian is saying that. This is not a generalization, this is the fundamental rule on which religions are built.
Can't take the good and leave the bad.
I'd also like to add that seeing "the church" still having national/international and in some cases global influence in politics and modern day societal issues is dispicable.
The quantum revolution can't come soon enough..
I'm just about to go out so I'll make this quick.
I know this is a ongoing and massive debate... but why does in the mid 90's congress have to pass the "Defense of Marriage Act" specifically to state marriage solely as a union between a couple of the opposite sex for all federal purposes. Tell me who is pushing that agenda? I know who it is, but go ahead and tell me I'm wrong.
Also to use Mao and Stalin as leaders of mad atheistic states, that is so, so old and is to pass over the fact they were first and foremost ruthless dictators with a communist ideology that took advantage of an unstable and shifting world power. I can not stand that argument.
Now let me tell you something you've heard a thousand times. There is no Atheist "bible/gospel"(I've heard people say Origin of Species but that's bs) therefore Mao and Stalin were not acting entirely on doctrine. It is ridiculous to say otherwise. Nobody can point to the specific atheistic reasoning's that lead Mao and Stalin to their horrific crimes. However congress passing a deliberate bill to set an oppressive agenda in place. There is no excuse for that.
To say I have a got some raw nerves over the issue of homosexuality and the way "religious people" view it is not correct at all. Shouldn't any person with an ounce of logic have a raw nerve over this issue? I am glad to hear you don't oppose by the way. But, I will not sit back on this issue of gay marriage. It is absurd of you to say that my "generalization is woefully inadequate".
I read an article a couple of months ago which I checked up on that goes something like this: the Pope thinks "gay marriage is among the most insidious and dangerous challenges to society". Now I could not have made up a better diabolical statement myself to "knock down religion". What more needs be said than as I said before religion is the great modern day oppressor. In fact form.
Modern day = today.
uh oh BJ you've uncorked it now...
I am going to try to hold back because I in general dislike these kind of conversations/debates because for every one of your points there are 1,000 people out there blogging, arguing, debating the same points...and for every one of my rebuttals or whatever the same can be said. In short this conversation has been had over and over again. I just watched the Hitchens debate that Vlatko posted and I find that 80% of the time I agree with Hitchens, but the problem with his argument and yours to an extent is that they tend to be straw man arguments. You paint the kind of religious person/religion writ-large that you want to knock down and then knock it down. I respond by pointing this out and by giving examples to the contrary and you reply with a reply that you already have in your arsenal as the next salvo...and so on and so on.
However, because I'm a sucker for a challenge, here's my take on your points...
GW - can't stand him. He drug the gospel I love through the mud worse than anyone since, I don't know, Constantine, Elizabeth, Henry VIII, I don't know, take your pick. You can say anything you want about people in power who mix their so-called faith with emperial power, it is always a wicked combination with bad results. Here's the part where the argument you've heard before comes in....The Christian faith writ-large is no more to blame for all the things you noted than Atheism is to blame for Stalin's atrocities. And I'm sorry but the Hitchens rebuttal painting Stalin as somehow quasi-religious doesn't satsifactorily address this. I'm not opposed to gay marriage. It's not my business. Preventing gay marriage certainly would not co-incide with loving my neighbor (unless of course I twist and complicate that command by saying that I should provide "tough love" but we both know that's bull.....)
Slavery? Absolutely it was rubber stamped by so called Christians. However, who stood up and fought to have it abolished because it was morally reprehensible? Genuine followers of Christ. Who furthered this call for justice and equality a century or so later? A pacifist follower of Christ named Martin Luther King. My wife works for an organization called Mennonite Central Committee - who exists only to provide relief in disasters, assist in peacemaking around the world, improve health and stability in impoverished areas. People do all this in the name of Christ, and though they are the quiet ones, they have been doing this as long as people have been perverting the message of Christ.
We can go down through 2,000 years of history and play this game and keep a tally if you like. But, I'm sorry BJ is just isn't as simple as "religion is the modern day oppressor" human beings have a way of running after power and wealth, and history bears out that they will do it cruelly and oppressively under any banner that suits their context - Christianity, Islam, or whatever brand of Atheism you'd like to ascribe to Stalin and Mao. It is dishonest to skew the numbers of dead and oppressed otherwise.
Now that the arguing part is out of the way, I aknowledge that you've got some raw nerves over the issue of homosexuality and the way "religious people" (though I have to stress again that this generalization is woefully inadequate) view it. You have every right to feel that way, to be angry. Obviously I can't be the one accountable for the wrongs that have you angry, I can only speak for myself. But I'd suggest that in your anger, you might be accepting arguments that don't do your intellect or perception justice. You are clearly an intelligent human being, and accordingly when you take a balanced look at history, you cannot use it to undergird your anger. Your anger IS justified, and I mean that. But it is justified personally, not by the history of religion's misdeeds.
Thank you Keith.
Let me start by saying if ALL Christians ‘Loved their neighbor as themselves' I have strong reason to believe we would not be having this conversation. However with George W and the likes around the world saying and believing that marriage is only between a man and a women, not only that, he forbids it and it is illegal. My rationalist thinking that makes me conclude there is no god, also makes me conclude that he is being completely ignorant, petulant and he is simply not being fair, suppressing and neglecting his citizens. What is the difference to George W if a man and a man or a women and a women get married. What does it have to do with anyone else.
Okay, lets step back a second and lets say George doesn't wholeheartedly believe he should deprive certain citizens this way. What do you think is influencing him do enforce this? Everybody knows the answer. So as a logical person who is accountable for this? Not me. Not the atheists. Not the rationalists. Who is, in 50 years time(perhaps it will be legal and forgotten by then) looked at as the oppressor of modern man? It is religion. The great modern day oppressor.
Take for example slavery in particular African slaves serving in the US. You have a period of acceptance or in other words it was LEGAL to oppress these people(for hundreds of years). Then a period of doubt creeping in. A period where even government officials start questioning and debating it's morality, and then you have war. Obviously war will not break out over gay marriage but I wouldn't blame the gay society for wanting one. Sometimes Looking to the past then to the future is when you see the real nature of the crime. And crime it most certainly is. Now as an atheist I chose one of the most tolerant religions to accuse denying simple human rights. I have got much anger toward other religion which condemn even the slightest homosexual behavior. If homosexual activity disgusts the majority of the religious world, they have no idea how much I detest them and their bogus belief system.
Having said all that, who do the ENTIRE rest of the world that does not consider themselves religious get to point at, make fun of and spit at the feet of when gay marriage is finally at the very least in the western world legalized?
Once more Keith I do not know your thoughts on the matter of gay marriage. So this is not pointing the finger at any particular individual. But someone as to be accountable!
The hosts is unbelievable naive. His logic is terrible and his mind, thought pattern is clearly corrupted by his religious upbringing. Its appallingly sad to see these whole communities without ANY intellectual sceptism. His agenda is clearly to put these people, his kind of people in a good light which he fails misrably if you are not at religous nutcase yourself. At the same time it seems that he is trying to appear as being a reflecting and sceptic person to get sympathy from secular/nonreligous sceptics. And almost, if not all claims and assumptions in this film are ridiculous. I would not recommend this film to anyone. It is a complete waste of life. I would personally rather see my great grandmother having sex than have to see this mocumentary again. I do feel a odd kind of sympathy with these religous nuts but also ALOT a contempt. COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME!
@BJ
Fair enough, good point. You did ask a few questions, and yes I read some broad assumptions into them. I apologize for getting a frustratedly defensive. I think the fundamental (no pun intended) disconnect we have here is that I don't really care much for parsing doctrine and over-defining what I believe. I find that often agnostics and atheists would like pursue a debate where in I declare something with certainty so they can knock it down with logic (I'm not at all saying you are doing this, BJ). But I don't expect to win a debate about something I hold to be ultimately mysterious with logic. Plain and simple, even if I'm smarter and better read than my opponent, they can win, because the whole premise from my end is not one where winning or losing matters.
So, if you are left with more questions than answers that is appropriate. I actually think that all of us would do well to approach life assuming we'll always have more questions than answers about each other, God, science, etc. There is an inherent western arrogance that approaches life with a sense of discovery (good) with the expectation that humans are so amazing and wise that we'll someday know everything (bad). This leads to tragic missteps in science/industry and intolerance in religion and philosophy.
What I'm getting at is that myself, and others who identify as Christians care more about pursuing God and following Christ than identifying a checklist of what it all doctrinally means. If I were pressed to answer the question of what I believe...I'll take a stab at it here...
I believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God. I believe that the words he spoke as recorded (probably imperfectly) in the gospels represent wisdom that is transformative when applied. I think the most succinct passage in many ways is Matthew 22:36-40 - "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." The first of these implies a private devotion to a being that I acknowledge as a Creator who has a genuine concern for and interaction with me on a spiritual level. The second suggests to me that the only way I and others around me will fully experience peace and deep joy and purpose (ie the elusive meaning of life)is through the mystery of humbling myself and giving more than I take, prizing servanthood over being served, etc. etc.
I do not believe that the bible is the infallible word of God but a collection of writings that chart the history of the faith community of which I choose to be part. I do not believe in any kind of eternal punishment. I believe hell is a metaphor for the suffering we inflict on ourselves by our misdeeds, and so, like all pain, it becomes a means of instruction, and a means of further transformation.
My understanding of what truths other religions possess is always expanding and I try to exercise humility and assume I don't know enough to cast any judgment on another human's belief. All that I believe would be vain if it were not for the fact that I have experienced God in an unquantifiable and unprovable way, that serves only to convince ME, only to engender MY obedience, only to change ME, for the better. In love, I may share with others of this experience but it must be for them to experience God for themselves.
I insist on handling my faith carefully and lightly. Anne Lamott says, "The opposite of faith is not doubt, but certainty. Certainty is missing the point entirely. Faith includes noticing the mess, the emptiness and discomfort, and letting it be there until light returns."
Wow, that was epic. Thanks for pushing me to clarify what I believe, as much as it is possible. That was very useful to me.
Peace (and I do mean it :)
@ Keith Wilson
You don't have to preach to me about playing defense all the time because I can imagine you have done a lot of this BUT did I or did I not actually ask you what your beliefs were??? I just threw out a couple of quick assumptions with question marks hoping you would select one of these or in a better case tell me something else, which in a round about way you have(although I'm still not clear). But I think you were primarily on the back foot. I read your first reply to me and I can't actually understand what your belief is. Unless I should have gathered and ASSUMED it from what you said here:
No offense to you, but I’m not interested in complying with one person’s subjective understanding of what the answer to that is. I do believe Jesus Christ was the son of God, but I do not believe in what is called the “atonement doctrine.” Current atheistic talking heads and many others will have you believe that a “typical Christian” believes in the atonement doctrine (essentially – we are all bound for hell unless we accept Jesus as savior because he was a replacement for our imminent eternal punishment for sin). Many many people believe as I do (and have for centuries, but we don’t make the headlines because we don’t feel it is necessary to do so.
To me, that just left me with more questions than answers. Unless I am missing something, unless there is nothing to miss. Perhaps I better not unintentionally assume anymore.
Peace!
@BJ - just to clarify, I didn't take anything you said as a personal attack, and I'm thankful for that, as that kind of waste of time happens all the time on here; I simply took offense to the broad assumption that you know what I believe, or for that matter that you know what is considered Christian orthodoxy. Perhaps you have a seminary degree, and if so I apologize. I'm pretty sure I don't have a degree in whatever philosophy you follow, so I'll refrain from assigning tenets and theologies to you.
Hey BJ,
Actually I did understand what you meant by oozing arrogance, what continues to frustrate me in these kind of conversations is that everyone gets on here and explains what they assume others believe and why it's wrong. I have a crazy idea...what if you and others would ASK one of us what we believe instead of explaining why what you assume we believe is incorrect. You have just presented another example of this...a subtle assumption that I DO NOT believe humans are animals involved in the evolutionary process. Wrong. Another, the assumption - and here it becomes insulting (though most of these assumptions are insulting to my intelligence, despite having friends that go to church...it's a little like the old racist addage - but I don't mean it racist, 'cause I have black friends!), is that I believe God is created in my image. Either you simply misunderstood the broadly accepted Christian belief that we are created in God's image (not the other way around), and this would simply mean your assumption is a bit ignorant, but not mean-spirited or prejudiced. The other possibility is you are familiar with this doctrine and you have assumed that the inverse of it must also be true. Now, if you are basing your assumptions only on obnoxious fundamentalists Biblical literalists, I understand why you'd assume this - as it's my belief that many of them have in fact created an idol in their own image which they parade around as the Christian God. However, it is the assumption that we must all believe this heresy that is insulting.
What I'm getting at, and I know I take a while to do so, is that I wish you could all approach the subject with more humility. I go to great pains to not assume I know what you believe and how you got there. I'd rather ask...and I would if I had a moment where I wasn't having to play defense. Imagine what you might learn if you asked questions instead of first explaining to me what you assume I believe and then explaining condescendingly (despite your politeness, which I genuinelly appreciate as its rare on these kind of forums) why a fully evolved materialist knows better than this poor backward Christian. If I were still into debating, I don't think you'd want to go several rounds with me. It drives me a bit nuts, this subtle suggestion that I must be an intellectual inferior. I absolutely will not reduce you or anyone else to that status and I only ask for equal "benefit of the doubt" treatment.
But hey, this is a forum on the internet, so I'll probably have to settle for politeness.
@Keith Wilson
Hey there. Let me explain what I mean by oozing arrogance. It's hard to not sound personal when saying that but I feel that, because of my beliefs that humans are animals involved in the evolution process. Therefore it is humanly arrogant to think that we are supreme beings and have a god. That's in my eyes. I do understand, like you said, if we were to sit down and chat that I would not find you arrogant. I have people in my life that are either semi religious and a couple that go to church at least once a week, so I don't mean it personally. Haha hard to get that across I guess. Simply put I don't think we humans are deserving over any other creature on Earth to have a god in our image.
I do "try" and avoid personal attacks, it is just a broad view.
firstly @Joe
I appreciate your willingness to listen and be openminded, and to allow for something outside of your stereotype of a religious person. Now I just have a few million more atheists and agnostics to convince, one at a time, that rational thinking people can also be religious.
@ BJ
I think the real problem here, which I keep trying to express in a number of ways is your concept that there is such a thing as "a typical Christian." What is typical? According to who? According to what survey? According to what data? No offense to you, but I'm not interested in complying with one person's subjective understanding of what the answer to that is. I do believe Jesus Christ was the son of God, but I do not believe in what is called the "atonement doctrine." Current atheistic talking heads and many others will have you believe that a "typical Christian" believes in the atonement doctrine (essentially - we are all bound for hell unless we accept Jesus as savior because he was a replacement for our imminent eternal punishment for sin). Many many people believe as I do (and have for centuries, but we don't make the headlines because we don't feel it is necessary to do so.
As far as "dreams and imaginings," it doesn't bother me to say that they are indeed part of the picture. Christianity has a long tradition of mystics, and that is along the lines of how I see the world. As I've said before - I would not presume to set out to prove anything to you, to prove empirically that anything I believe is true. I have had experiences, obviously subjective, and it is upon these mostly that I have reason to continue to believe and to allow that belief to guide my actions. I think I could make a pretty fair argument that the teachings of Jesus, if followed, would make for a better world, but that it's not upon the "goodness" of the practical teaching that my life is based. Buddha's teachings about attachment and desire would also benefit the world greatly if followed. So, my faith is not based on "no fact or reality" but it is also not based primarily on fact or reality. If you and I were to sit and have a coffee, beer, wine, whiskey or whatever suits you, and discuss religion, I think it very unlikely you would or could reasonably accuse me of oozing arrogance in my belief. I wish that you, and others would recognize that we are on a public forum that allows for little snapshots and it's impossible for anyone to relate the whole picture...so perhaps we could all exercise a little "benefit of the doubt" with one another eh?
Peace.
@ Keith Wilson
I'm confused as to what your religious beliefs are. I am by no means an expert in religion but I can't figure out what you mean when you say you are a follower of Christ. Am I correct in saying you believe in his teachings but that he was not the son of god? Or he is the son of god and therefore you are a typical Christian? Again I am just curios. I consider my self a "rationalist". I don't believe in any form of religious god. As has been said many times before, how can one believe in a particular god when it just depends on the region of the world you grew up in.
If as joe stated above you have adopted a hybrid to the traditional religion and that there is indeed a possibility of a god, then what makes him/her/it a god at all as we know the word to mean? I could only think of this being as a creator plan and simple. But the fact that us as humans even need to perceive that any god is in our own image just oozes arrogants and has no basis what so ever. It all depends on dreams and imaginings, which has no connection to fact nor reality.
I am not attempting to have all the answers, these are just some musings.
I agree Kieth very good point. I think there is no reason that there could not be a God. I like how you have thought through the whole process and adopted a hybrid to the traditional religion. There are many things I disagree with when it come to religion but the possibility of there being a God is not one of them. I like your view points.
Pasha, I have experienced many similar situations. I grew up in a very religious household. It was science classes that made me first start to dissect things down. I think I will make my children grow up in a household full of documentaries and let them decide what they want to believe.
We might not have the same standpoints, but well said @Keith Wilson.
I agree Joe. I have seen Jesus Camp and it makes me sick to my stomach. I think the whole "fear of hell" motivation and persuasion is so twisted and backwards. I am a follower of Christ but I don't believe in hell per se. I think it is essentially metaphor for suffering that is the consequence of our sin/mistakes/bad behavior/ whatever word you prefer. My interpretation of my religion follows along the lines of George MacDonald, an overlooked and largely forgotten writer from the mid to late 1800s. He influenced many great Christian thinkers (many of whom you might be surprised to know don't really believe in eternal punishment either) like GK Chesterton, C.S. Lewis and others. I think that Jesus teaching is the paradigm that addresses human behavior in the most radical and transforming way. If you truly built a code for how to live life that was based on his most central teachings, it would not look very much like any structuralized, co-opted, politicized, superstitious, fear-mongering religion which we see today perfectly displayed in a film like Jesus Camp.
Perplexed by the genuinely venomous attitude that an atheist in a similar forum to this took toward me for merely mentioning God, I asked him if - given that there are still things we do not know (such as what there was BEFORE the moment before the Big Bang...there's always a point preceding the one we claim to understand that we must admit is unknown)- could he accept that it is possible that he is wrong and that there is a powerful being which some of us call God. He replied (again with a twinge of condescension and hatred), "can you accept that YOU might be wrong about Jesus of Nazareth?" And I said yes! Of course I might be wrong! You form your ideas largely from your experience (again I suggest this has even more impact on a deep level than any research ever will), and I do the same. Both of us are likely wrong about some things. To those who cannot admit this and claim to have a monopoly on Truth...I have no interest in talking to those people and their whole way of viewing the world is destructive. THAT is the religion that Dawkins and Hitchens and Harris and the rest hate and want to do away with. What they don't understand is that THAT perverted religion with its closed minded certitude and delusional myth-worshipping is not the whole of people who are in some fashion religious. Hitchens and Dawkins would be hard pressed (in fact, I'd put the challenge to any atheist who'll take it) to show me how MY particular religious practice, if adopted by many, would be in any way destructive and dangerous to the world.
And for what it's worth Joe, keeping my options and my mind open, and searching and learning is precisely my M.O. in life. I will continue to do so until I die, I hope!
highway's faster and less delusional anyway..
Good point Joe
When I was 11 years old during my first religious studies class in school, I put my hand up and asked 'what if you don't believe in god?'
The teacher pointed towards the door and said 'Get out!'
So I spent the rest of that class standing outside the room and I skipped her class for the rest of the year.
I still find that hard to believe even 34 years later.
She was basically afraid to open up the debate with a bunch of 11 year olds.
And that's religion for you. It's their way or the highway.
I chose the highway.
Keith,
You should watch Jesus Camp it’s a documentary. There are many like it but I think it stresses my point well. I think the best thing about us is having an option and it makes me mad when parents, churches... stuff things into your head without you having a single chance to think about it. They do this by saying things like "this is the way it is if you don’t believe you will burn in hell". I am a scientist (or almost one after next year I will be getting my PhD in particle physics, finally...) and it is hard to see my option without a deep understanding of science. Without the deep understanding, you will want to relate everyone to a all mighty one because it seems the only way possible. I would keep your options but keep an open mind and search and learn.
In response to Pacha:
I'm glad your healing the sick and feeding the hungry. It's good to see someone is doing something.
So many times I've been frustrated when I hear polotitians,movie stars, and religious leaders saying to provide for the poor. But they still have their millions and want me to give more. I give but I'm not in their financial stratusphere.
Any God worth his salt,(and there are many)would not make us puppets. And if you are I can't help anyone who does not aknowledge my existance, I would't expect the one who created me to eather.
Religious people try to be perfect, God haters blame Him.But I am blessed to get to know Him. He said there is only one true religion; to provide for the orphan and the widow. Religion VS. Relationship.
If I don't seek to know someone and become their friend I must aknowledge them. It's the same with the creator. No man could prove to me that He exist's so I asked Him to show me many times. And when I finally asked and really ment it(I was afraid to know)He showed up because I humbled myself and asked. I sought the truth in spite of religious people and found that I'll never even now be good enough. He is!
I am way off topic. The subject I want to discuss is far too vast. I'm not contradicting myself. To you it might seem that way but to me, no. I'd end up writing a novel if I had to explain all of it, so just nevermind.
@Patman
Uhmmm. No disrespect but I couldn't really follow what you were saying.
1) I dont see how your statement has anything to do with the video.
2)I cant see how what you stated has anything to do with what other people have posted
3)You contradicted yourself a few times.....such as :
You say to let go of everything to be in sync with the Earth and only use the instinct our ancestors had and to essentially live like they did. Then you say to let go of the past. ( By the way I guarantee you tribes of our ancestors still lived with stress).
You say to let go of progress (money, religion, etc) since its detrimental to ones self and freedom but then you say people should not fear change.
I think I know where you were headed but it was a bit contradictory. I do believe the future has a lot of potential but no need to go backwards and live like an animal to try to gain some kind of enlightenment. That is not to say we cant learn anything fom our ancestors, on the contrary...I think we can incorporate their wisdom to our modern lives.
But the issue remains that there is a darkness in man throughout all of humanity's existence. I agree somethings are restrictive to enlightenment like money and ideological propaganda, but thats because people are corrupt and use these things to feed the ego/corruption and worship these things instead of using them as tools for survival and knowledge.. Its akin to the saying "Guns dont kill people, people do" when a gun can be used for protection or hunting for food, instead of a weapon to gain political/personal power.
To clarify my example what I meant to say was - a person who was raised in a religious context which teaches them they are a good person, but who has parents who abuse and berate them...etc. I realized after reading what I wrote that it was confusing.
Joe, thanks for your civil reply. I'm not being sarcastic when I say that's a rarity when discussing this issue. First of all, I don't consider myself a person of great faith. I don't really expect anyone to believe in something based on being told about it third person. As people in general, experience trumps esoteric belief every time. For example a person who was raised and in theory believes that they are a "good person" but who has been berated by their parents will likely internalize and feel a deep sense of self-loathing and poor self esteem, because their experience is far more powerful than religious stories. So, anyway, I believe because I have experienced spiritual realities that I wouldn't bother to explain or describe because they are entirely subjective and therefore are evidence for me, but I wouldn't expect them to be worthwhile evidence for you.
Secondly you say that when one looks at science "it" falls apart. I assume the "it" is religion. That is a statement that is far too broad and vague to possibly have meaning or substance. I am an avid follower of all things scientific, and have a generally good understanding of cosmology, evolution, biology, etc....and the more I learn, the more I am in awe of the creator I have experienced. I am not looking for proof or disproof in science because faith and science are not opposed to one another in my world-view. I think it's complete folly to choose one over the other which is what goofball creationists do and it is also what manic and angry (to a degree that it is not only unhealthy but clouds judgment) Hitchens and Dawkins.
So, when I speak of experiencing spiritual reality and being open, I mean that if you are already convinced that nothing beyond the immediately observable and quantifiable is possible (which the best scientists would never do, or they couldn't do their visionary work), than there is of course little likelihood you'll experience anything that challenges what you have already decided to be impossible or possible.
But hey, that's just me :)
the above post was for keith
That’s really neat that you think of it in openness. It takes a lot of faith to believe when you do research. it takes Faith that I could never be able to keep. If you really do research your religious beliefs then you are in the minority. I respect your beliefs.
If you look at what makes sense (science) then it starts to fall apart. I think if more people were open and not brain washed they would not believe. There are few that still believe after deep research into the subject (and I’m not talking about reading the bible). Believing is respectable but being brain washed is well sad!
Stop indulging, stop polluting, stop hating and live your life with the freedom you are meant to have. Free from money, free from religion, free from stress, free from corruption. We are animals and we must follow the instincts that got us through the ice age. We do not own this planet, we must live in synch with it, just like all other things on Earth. It's so simple yet we refuse to let go of the past. The fear of change really needs to vanish because the future is full of potential. No God would want us to live in a way that would ultimately lead to our destruction.
@Keith Wilson
I completely agree. I am also deeply religious but not gullible. I even had a stint as an atheist for a while but I kept my mind open to things that I didn't understand.
That open mind brought me back to understanding and seeing things I wouldn't have otherwise, but keeping a skeptical mind as not to be gullible(see my previous post).If I wouldn't have kept an open mind I really would have missed out on some incredible insight, enlightenment, and miraculous experiences. Someone who thinks they already have it all figured out will instantly keep themselves away from certain truths.
Hey Joe, we are out there - people who are religious but not complete i*****. Most of us would would agree with your opinion of the video. However, people like you who allow one video to convince you (or to be the nail in the coffin) that the "religious boat" whatever that might mean to you, is sunk, show that you are as narrow and gullible and naive as any on that boat. It never ceases to amaze me how much vitriol is thrown at absolutely anyone who is religious by people who know so little, but think they know so much (or maybe they think they know just enough). I'm sorry for you that your predispositions will so clearly limit your quality of life.
I wouldn't suggest that you open your mind to this video, but I would suggest you open it in general. I am deeply religious (though please don't assume you know what that means) and I challenge and critically analyze everything I believe and everything I see. But I try to do so with an openness that there are realities and kinds of wisdom far beyond my comprehension. This creates a little something called humility. Without it, you'll assume you know plenty and assume you are wiser than others and in the end it's you that will miss out.
yea... cool video... not! I thought okay maybe there is someone out there that is religious and not a complete i****. So I gave the video a chance. Boy this really sunk the religious boat Hahaha
I think it's fake. Nothing against Christianity, I'm a Christion but these people seem scary.
Religious jingoism, self-deception, and those forced smiles that make you want question the sanity of these people. All evidence justified, never verified. Still, some good advice to the radical religionists from these people. Stop using politics and start loving people.
All that being said what I jsut wrote above...I did like the fact that people in opressed communities were being helped with help, food, clothes, spirituality, and a sense of direction. I especially like Bakers' message taht GOD must be spread in everything you do, think, and say even if you are not preaching directly ( aka lead by example like Jesus did).
Wow what a waste of time this was. I know first hand that miracles do exist but a lot of what was in this so called documentary was hearsay and nonsense.
The church leader in this doc who says" do not come in with a skeptical mind, jsut believe" is total brainwashing. I have been to churches where these activities take place and they call you a non-believer, your faith is not strong enough, you are not being receptive enough etc etc. I was totally open minded and receptive but i was not going to force a reaction to please a guy barking at me to believe jsut to please him, feel accepted, and get a reaction out of people. I have since then found a place of true miracles that dont require such tricks and skepticism is tolerated( I was skptical for a long time an kept trying to debunk what was going on).
Aside from the obvious parlor tricks and fallacies in this doc( the gem stones, second and third hand account , post hoc , coincidental correlation, ) the director makes no attempt to actually prove anything. Doesn't call in experts or professionals to provide proof( i bet the so called gem inspector was a member of that congregation...what precious stone appraiser would say "i dont know what this is and its too perfect"?.... those are contradictions by the way, how can he call something perfect if he doesnt even know what it is? I wouldnt say an antique car looks perfect and then say, but I dont know anything about cars and I dont even know what model or year this car is).
A couple of the "miracles didnt make sense aside from the ones people here pointed out ( guy favoring leg, dentists records of teeth, etc)
1)The teen who said they found a kid with a cast said his hand felt 100% after the prayer . Hmm doesnt he have a cast? He couldnt have moved his wrist around like the teenager was demonstrating so he was obviously making it up to show off to his peers to feel accepted. If that incident did happen, he was probably annoyed and just told him "yeah yeah yeah its 100% fine can you go away now so i can play".
2) The deaf woman.If she was deaf all her life there is no way she could have repeated what the "healer" said verbatim. She wouldnt have the vocal experience to move her tongue, mouth, lungs, and vocal cords to repeat what she said. She wouldnt even have the cognitive ability to even know what she was saying, it would sound like jsut random noises like an obscure foreign language. Imgine if someone said a phrase in Aramaic and urged you to repeat it. Notice the people had to be instructed to say alllujah and instructed to clap.
I could be wrong and all this is totally real. If thats the case this documentary did a terrible job of proving anything. It really seemed to me the entire time like it was a recruiting video for a church.
Seems to me this whole video could have been made to make religious people look stupid, but I know it probably wasn't. I was hoping to SEE miracles happen, I really was. Not necessarily religious miracles, just a miracle or 2. But when the "manna" showed and is so obviously cracker bits, I was so sad. Farse is an understatement. If part of it is absolutely unbelievable, then it all is. Why on Earth did they try to convince anyone & then show us broken crackers for manna?? What did they tell these people to get them all to do these things? That it "would bring more people to God"? Geeees! How disappointing.
worst doc. ever
That was ridiculous. There is no credibility to this documentary. Yes, Jesus wants us to praise him and he loves us. I guess he forgot about all the other more serious problems in the world. Religion... what a waste of time.
This morning I had a stomach ache. I asked God to 'make it go away'. And it did! By afternoon I was all better. :)
Happy Americans, they don't need anymore doctors and hospitals. They have church and those healing guys.
What's happening with the world... No idea...
This is just silly to me. Why would the god Yaweh waste his time with making what are basically circus tricks? If Yaweh wants me to believe, heal Stephen Hawking or do something significant that will help the world. Hell, end the massive oil disaster in the Gulf.
It's going to take a lot more for me to believe in an interventionist god that some magic tricks and third-hand stories. ("I know this guy who has a cousin whose girlfriend's mom's best friend's hairdresser's husband's best friend who...")
Wow. I wish I could be half as eloquent as some of the most recent commenters this morning. THANK YOU for putting things into a light that everyone should be able to understand....
e
I watched this whole thing twice. I like the Bakers. I want to believe the gold teeth and manna are real. Having a deep faith that we can heal others in Jesus' name is an awesome thing to possess. Should I keep hoping we're all going to heaven or swallow this idea of only Christ believers going. Something to ponder
I thought documentaries were based on reality or things pertaining to reality; not opinionated & religiously driven hoaxes conjured up by the seemingly most non-holy people in the middle of nowhere, huddled together nodding blindly with the equally gullible person next to them. I'm disturbed at what Christians will eat up and log into their lives as miracles or divine acts of God. I also find it hard to believe these people really understand the nature of God when they are clearly prioritized with trinkets and the material world. If God is indeed a sentient consciousness, logic screams that he wouldn't put dry bread (which is NOT mana btw.) into one old man's Bible.
or maybe God is more like the Tooth-Fairy than we might have previously assumed..
God.A power of inconcievable magnitude that can never be comprehended.No beginning.no end.Not man or woman,good bad,right or wrong.Only Divine beauty.Boundless.You are proof of this mystery.
Religion.The ultimate flim flam. Using miracles to qualify the exclusive ownership of the Deity they created.It restricts God to Club membership.It is a power that kings and governments covet.The claim to Divine authority.
Faith. The most powerful of all creative resources.Uniquely human,belief or faith is the power of the possible.Our most
Godlike quality.
Love.(see God) The energy that holds the whole soup together,and
the only meaning there is to anything..
Don't be afraid to accept truth,unless someone is selling it.
the
i dont know what i can say about stuff
i can't believe you posted this hahahahaha i made a youtube video making fun of this and christians flagged it off...
hahahahah
because there are crazys it must be true, right?
Yeah I buy it actually. In one way or another I bet this stuff's possible. People and bodies have, and are energy/God that can be called upon with concentrated focus. Take the Placebo effect for example--believe it will do the trick, and then it does. However,I would be interested to see what a dentist could say about one of those gold teeth if he had the chance to fully check it out in an x-ray.
i dont get it... you dont believe in the possibility of instant healing or you are just against the story of Jesus? i am a little confused because you can find thousands of witnesses of instant healing and doctors can not explain it... you can call it miracles or what ever but they happen all over the world and they dont happen just in churches... ask yourselves what proof would you need to convince you over this screen.. very funny
@ GreatBigBore – Thanks for the laugh!
This doc is such a load of poop. I can’t believe people can be so gullible as to believe this. They seem to be otherwise “normal” people but there’s something clearly wrong with them. I actually felt really sorry for them for making such fools of themselves. :(
Brand new eyeball!! Bahahahha the dam girl is a salamander.
The gold teeth are in the back of the mouth, not in the front where people can see them "appear" when they were not there a moment before. Where are the dental records. 18 k gold flake is available from any good art supplier, although this looks like glitter. The gold on the Bible pages could be real, still, it is available along with the hand pounded gold leaf produced mostly in Germany and sold worldwide. I work with gold leaf and could easily take a razor blade and make flakes if I couldn't find a pouch of such. The Mana looks like oyster crackers. Humans lie to themselves and others for "greater good" all the time. Mass hysteria brings out the worst in self delusion. There is huge pressure in a group like that to be "special," to be in the inner circle of gold toothed, gem endowed, gold flaked, and healed. The homeless man at the end couldn't wait to get away. He "endured" ultimate humiliation for promised money and even asks something to the effect of,"where's the money?" at one point. The man "brought back to life" was not followed up with interviews with the doctors at the hospital who would have seen him change back into a fully recovered man in moments and never stopped talking about it.
@ GreatBigBore - Thanks for the laugh!
This doc is such a load of c***. I can't believe people can be so gullible as to believe this. They seem to be otherwise "normal" people but there's something clearly wrong with them. I actually felt really sorry for them for making such fools of themselves. :(
in every profession is the same thing.... there are good people and there are bad people. why do people always think that church is an exception?
Linda, I live in a VERY small town, with more churches than 5X the amt here could ever fill. They have 2 churches for each denomination-except for the Baptist-they have 3. Population is less than 1000 year round. All I know about is the Catholic Church- they said the reason for more than one church are the different Nationalities here. One of the Churches is Germans and Italians ONLY. The other is Irish and "other". They have seperate feasts, and festivals-and those from one church don't socialize with anyone from the other church of the same denomination-nor from any other faiths. See, a couple from one of the Baptist churches told me, (just a day after my fiancé died 4yrs ago), that "THOSE" people at the "OTHER" Church-weren't "really saved and are going to Hell".
It's the same way the Catholics and other local faiths seem to believe. It's worse here than ANY of the towns I lived in most of my life, down South.
There is ONE Black family in this Whole COUNTY!! They freely admit here-are even proud of the fact they purposely keep out any of those "brown" people.
I know there was trouble last year when one of our young veterans brought some of his fellow troops here for the Memorial Day celebrations. They had saved this young mans life in Iraq & stood ny him after a double amputation. Well, these self-professed Christian Patriots, postponed the annual parade and cookout. They didn't want to associate in ANY way with this Private's "brown" friends.
I am ashamed to be a part of this communty, and, if there was ANY way I could afford it-I would move. These phonies here make me sick....
i did not see anything thats wrong here!!!!! people helping other people!!!!! whats is wrong with you people???? i dont agree with the church in lots of areas but helping others is the only thing that i agree on!!!! church helps people and thats is a GOOD thing!!!! people are amazing!!! everything is possible!!!! look again at the faces of children and say this is a fraud... go with your friends across town and try to help people and see if anything BAD will happen... i think that is our purpose.. to love and help each other
i don't understand why people cannot get past needing Jesus to get to God. No mediator is necessary.. You have the power; You ARE the power.
We dont need any miracles to feed the starving millions Linda.
All we need are some humane people in power.
Just finished watching the rest of this documentary and well, I am not impressed I thought they were going to show some follow up to the miracles but no just people being used to try and push christianity. The comment in the video regarding muslims never hearing about jesus is wrong as he is mentioned in the quran many times, so I found that very hard to believe also the pastor that wanted to convert the old woman first why? if you are a christian are you not supposed to love every one regardless of thier faith, ect or are we back to the story that only christians get saved. I also agree with the other poster's who mention all the poverty,wars and disastrers that are going on in the world right now where is god with his miracles now, also the gold teeth gold dust and gems oh and the manna what about sending some of that to the starving milion's through out the world now that would really impress me.
Linda ;-*
@Vlatko:
Ah, I figured as much
This is so sad ... cant believe I watched this crap !!!
Hmmmm...yet right now, there is an environmental disaster of unprecedented proportions going on in the Gulf of Mexico. At this point, some scientists are saying it is likely to continue to get worse-rather than better. I've read on several science websites-namely University GeoPhysics sites; that this could even turn into an "extinction event". And the Jesus people have been praying for weeks now.
Where's their all-powerful "God" now?? Sorry, I wish there WERE "miracles". The earth could really use one about now.....
A funny idea, but not well executed. Not to mention that it's already been done much better on the big screen: remember Borat singing at the rodeo?
This is very sad lot of deluded m*****.
I hope that they find a good doctor to help them.
Yeah from what I read in the summery I thought we were gonna see things we couldnt explain, not just people talking about them happening...
anyone want to take on amazing randy 1million dollar prize. You can win it and prove you are for real. As a practicing magician, this is easy stuff.
Say Vlatko, did you do the summary/synopsis on this doc yourself?
I believe in these miracles! I saw a guy pull a quarter from behind a little kids ear one time . . . lol.
Then heal the sick people in charge of our world so that they stop starting all the wars in the first place.
A very strong faith in anything can work wonders, just like a plusebo that makes people well.
And people who can be made to feel no pain without drugs.
so lets all start believing that our world is full of love and happiness. and that we all are humans we all have a heart
And that through working together for the good of the earth
we all will have everything we need, and we will all be happy
One thing that all religions and evolutionist's believe in is that we are all supposed to love each other.
ALL WE NEED IS LOVE, that is something we all can agree on.
I love you all unconditionaly, and wish you all the best...
Actually, nothings being done in this film that can't be done by non religious healers. We all have the ability to heal ourselves and others. No need for god at all.
I think the guy was sincere and that there are some really valuable tidbits in here. Most importantly, Heidi Baker's plea to the Western church to simplify things back to what Jesus said were the most important commandments - basically; 1. Love God with everything you have and 2. Love everyone else even more than you love yourself. I heard that broken down to essentially devotion and ethics. The first is the private, spiritually intimate aspect in which you are transformed (in my experience slowly), the second is the aspect which guides your behavior in all interactions. She nailed it beautifully and the church (like that Turkish pastor) desperately needs it as it has become a laughing stock which the comments here exemplify, and it has become a deserving object of scorn.
With all that said, I have a tough time believing a lot of this stuff as he never once followed up with an interview of someone who got healed a day, a week, a month, or a year later to see if "took" so to speak. He anecdotally said those gems have mystified geologists and such, but how about taking one to them and having them analyze it, sight unseen, and see what they say? The gold dust? Could someone please just swab some of that stuff and find out what it's made of...probably standard glitter...? The manna? Looks like crumbled saltines to me, couldn't someone have easily analyzed it to see if it is, for example, saltines? Gold teeth? It seems to me, none of the miracles in the bible (and I'm not a literalist anyway) were as seemingly pointless as glitter and manna (in the bible it wasn't pointless because they were starving!). Jesus didn't do laser displays in the clouds to show off. Even the water into wine was not just practical but relational. He wanted to help his mother.
So, I think God is entirely capable of working bona fide miracles through God's people, and maybe some of them were caught on tape or described here, but I feel certain it someone did some hidden camera action on these people with the manna and the glitter, we'd quickly see how un-miraculous they are. I'd like to see that documentary too.
here we go with another 500 posts on whether god really exists and how many commas should be in a sentence. :)
By the way, did you guys notice when he was showing the 'growth' of the 'gems', the camera went all fuzzy? Very believable.
LOL@Dave
my post with saying that never was approved!
It should of been called Fingered by God.
LOL first i thought that it shows what you can do with a camera and with some lying people, and at the end it will show that is not true and this is how manipulation works , :))) bot lol the truth never came, if someone believes this it is retarded, are you kidding me i see problems all around me, and a lot of Christians more Christians then the ones from "this movie" and they prey every day but there is no miracle anywhere, oh yea i think that they forgot to have a camera around that is the recepie "s*** i made a huge discovery if you need Jesus to heal you you need a miracle and a VIDEO CAMERA :))))) otherwise it wont happen :)))) this documentary is hilarious , but a waist of time sincerely to much lying , plz don't listen me just listen noone not even a this movie and trey for yourself is this is true or not :))))
So, not what I expected. Out of all those accounts, makes it seem that regrowing a limb, would be a snap.
I'm left in a state of shock, seeing how prevalent in today's time, so many are being fingered by God, still.
I hereby rename this doc: 'The middle finger of god', cause it gave us people that buy this crap.
I facepalmed about fifteen times because of the cameraman's gullibility.
The second half is the better part. The stories from China and Africa literally made me weep and desire to be part of that move of God. Not sure what to make of the gold dust and the jewels in the first part, but it's possible. God is the ultimate multitasker. I'd like to have one of the jewels for further testing and verification of it's "supernatural" source. Other than that, this was a good doc and I really liked it. I'd give it an 8 out of 10 as I do think the guy on the crutches was favoring his leg also. When God really heals you, you don't have to fake it. But then again, I've known lots of people healed that only realized the full extent of the miraculous touch of God later.
The part of liked the most was Africa. God bless you, Africa! May you not be forsaken in your time of need, but may those that love you persue you diligently for God's glory and for your own healing.
This is ridiculous, only into part 2 and wont be wasting any more bandwidth on this nonsense.
This is hardly worthy of being included here at TDF.
I suspect if he were to probe into these so called "miracles" he would soon find that these are cheap parlour tricks to get bums on seats.
I was a christian until I watched this video. By the end of it I was disgusted and offended.
It actually turned out a lot better than the first few minutes indicated. I don't necessarily believe what most of the doc puts forth- most of it is second and third hand stories, with no real evidence other than someone's word. I do believe the mind is an incredibly powerful thing though, and no doubt sometimes people are actually healed by the suggestion created by these people with total certainty they're about to heal you.
*facepalm at the guy on crutches who was clearly favoring his leg.
its all a prety good hoax..im not challenging gods powers by any means by why would all these so called gems,gold etc appear from no where when there are more people dying of hunger every second in parts of the world!!??? why would god choose to let them suffer?? whats so special about these people in the film??!! its way of conditioning people into thinking that this is what gods about..most so called illnesses can be cured by the mind it self..placebo effect? but people rely on medicine..all this praying on the streets on yale campus and other parts of the world are nothing bur propaganda..obviously you'll think slighlty different when someones just prayed for you there an then its pyschological..i could go on all day but its all a hoax
Yikes! One is born every minute...
Dont know what to make of what I have watched up till now.
I have to go to work and will watch the rest of this documentary when I get home and post my comment's then, have a good day everyone
Linda ;-*
If these people are faking this, I think they are doing great harm to the body of God by compromising its credibility. I am no fan of that host, Sid, from That's Supernatural! Where is the natural catastrophe that was supposed to befall us last summer?
Very funny!
This guy demonstrates unrivaled gullibility within the first couple minutes of his film. I've known my aunt and uncle forever, it is impossible for them to lie.
There is no reason for these normal people to perform simple sleight of hand to trick their congregations. They have no reason to lie.
It is not as if their whole mission is based on BELIEF of the supernatural.