Is The Bible Still Relevant Today?

2011 ,    » 270 Comments

Is The Bible Still Relevant Today?Nicky Campbell presents a special edition of The Big Questions recorded at Bury Grammar School Boys.

To commemorate the 400th anniversary of the publication of the King James Bible, the British TV program The Big Questions debates just one topic: Is The Bible Still Relevant?

Contributing their views from the panel are: the Right Reverend Michael Nazir Ali, the former Bishop of Rochester; the scientist and atheist campaigner, Professor Richard Dawkins; Rabbi Laura Janner-Klausner from the North Western Reform Synagogue; and the Bible scholar Dr Francesca Stavrakopoulou, who presented the BBC Two series, The Bible's Buried Secrets.

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270 Comments / User Reviews

  1. jubbs_sher

    great Q&A. everyone could be right, and everyone could be wrong. like yin yang each view is needed.

  2. Matt Purnell

    I think Christianity was beneficial in the past, but has been detrimental for quite some time.

  3. keeb420

    i think they should of expanded on what rabbi klausner said, about her view of god changing though different texts. my interpretation is that god is a human creation based on what we perceive to be right and truthful, but of course your god and my god, though the same, could be completely different. your god could be vengeful adn angry, while my god could be loving and caring. and there still the same judo-christian god. and i am glad the one guy made the point about cultures that have never heard of the bible living just lives.

  4. Jared Boyes

    These arguments are like a person that can only see in black and white trying to explain the concept of color to a person that cannot see at all. Simply pointless. Neither side can prove anything. It all comes down to a matter of faith and intelligence. People always have and always will believe what they wish. They just need to realize that every human being has developed their own system of beliefs in order to tolerate the unanswered questions in life.

  5. Daniel Robinson

    Awesome. really enjoyed this debate, was like a comedy for my open mind. I think that as a human race we need to re-look at what we have, past is past, our future is space and time travel, for our species to continue to exist we need to leave the Earth. It is a known fact that the Earth's magnetic field is weakening and is expected to be depleted with in 100 years, this will mean small objects in space will fall to earth and not burn up as it once had and rays from the sun will torch the planet leaving only the extreme bacteria behind in underground pools of water or where-ever. We as a species need to stop our wars, stop materialism, stop capitalism and work together for the common good. We need to build an ark in space or many ark's in space to travel the cosmos and seek out a new home before our planet is destroyed in the way mentioned above or by nearby super novae or by the death of our own sun. We need to act now! I do apologise to all those who have faith in a god, but he does not and never has existed and he is definitely not here today to defend your beliefs, This is the age of the awakening... throw away your bible it isn't going to help you any more.


  6. NAND Gate

    My doorstop bible is as relevant to holding the door open as it was 400 years ago.

  7. NAND Gate

    lol "known fact".

    Daniel - you sound exactly like a religious person, with your own version of revelations.

    ....We need to build an ark....

    ..remind you of anything....?

  8. leonardobdas

    Very special conversation....isnt it? English people are such good questioners....really. I think they behaved themselves well there. Could you really see such a conversation happening in America? It just seem to me that there would have been a whole lot more shouting in the name of Jesus... if you know what I mean...

  9. Clifford William Thomas

    Having a weakened Magnetic Field wouldn't mean that the Ozone would vanish and that is what causes things to burn up. It will mean more Gamma radiation getting to the planets surface but it won't kill everything on the planet, creatures have been on this planet for millions upon millions of years and this weakening of the magnetic field has happened many times during this period.

    I do agree with the "stop materialism/capitalism/wars" stuff but that is a whole other subject.

  10. Joe_NYC

    Agreed. Something like this will never happen in USA. I am beginning to believe that early europian settlers accidentally left behind their rational part of the brain back in europe.

  11. Joe_NYC

    Another nice one V.

    If you are a fan of Dawkins you will love it.
    I couldn't hold my laughter when Dawkins asks
    "Which religion?"
    "Why not Thor?"

  12. SaintNarcissus

    What a fantastic conversation. Thank God they found some intelligent progressive Christians. Richard Dawkins did precisely what his followers on this forum do: argued against fundamentalist Christianity with people who are not fundamentalists because he has no really good arguments against the actual people with whom he's debating. I agree with him more than half the time, yet he reveals an extremely emotional bias which clouds his ability to see the world as more nuanced and capable of intellectual diversity - which it is. I sure wish the guy who said the Bible is not contradictory had a chance to explain himself. He asked for an example and I really would have enjoyed hearing his response. I also really appreciated them including the Rabbi. She had excellent insights to contribute, nearly all of which I agreed with. Thanks Vlatko for posting this one!. You may think of me as one of the hopeless sheeple, but I value you and what you do nonetheless.

  13. Elizabeth InKashiwa

    So much of our modern western society is informed by the Judeo-Christian scripture. However, it's futile to look back when the effects of human ingenuity and the growing body of scientific knowledge are carrying us into the future. We need to acknowledge the value of the texts and get past them.

    While Dawkins comes off as uninformed ("ignorant desert dwellers") about the texts he dismisses, he makes one really good point - the scriptures are no more important than any other great mythic and religious materials. And this exceptionalism has resulted in people in America and Africa and other places committing bibliolatry. They think the bible is literally true. It was refreshing to hear the voices of the rabbi and the bishop, both looking at the scriptures as guidance for their lives and the lives of their communities while also looking critically at them and keeping religious life vital.

  14. Vlatko

    No not at all @SaintNarcissus, I do not think of you as "hopeless sheeple". Thank you too.

  15. Guest

    Made me wonder what would have come out of a panel made of Epicurus, Ozy, StillRV, WTC7, and who would be clapping at the words of each of them....and would that conversation remained civil and without name calling? Now add CnN and Achems to the panel. Vlatko would have had quite the time to give each a chance to talk.

  16. Guest

    You may not have called him as such (i would have to revise hundreds of comments), but there is quite a bit of name calling happening around from many people and of course you cannot be made responsible for all those. But the underlying impression is right, most religious people are considered Hopeless Sheeple on TDF.

  17. Guest

    Although i do agree with many statements by Dawkins, he was also the only one to resort to name calling ("ignorant desert dwellers") for people who built the pyramids, people who mapped the trajectory of Sirius like the Dogon and many more accomplishments.
    Our society tend to put down the intelligence of anyone from the past, we even do it to our old folks.

  18. Psychodiva

    wasn't it the Egyptians who did those things and not the early Israelites?

  19. Vlatko


    And your point is? I just wanted to say what I think (or don't) and you're just stretching the argument.

    As for the site (TDF), the name calling is reciprocal. Every person no matter what is the topic, or if that person is religious or not, is resorting to name calling to the opposite group. The underlying impression is... only your impression. Other people have other impressions.

  20. Guest

    yes dear Psychodiva! i should have written for people who built the pyramids like the Egyptians, people who mapped the trajectory of Sirius like the Dogon and many more accomplishments.

  21. John Jacquard

    ignorace at its finest, nobody mentioned the fact that anything that was in the bible was in texts thousands of years before it. i have a question for you all....
    when we manufacture lets say a computer do we guess at which parts to use, no there is a very intricated system that has to be exact, so why not carry that type of intelligence into an area such as this "critical thinking"

  22. Psychodiva

    I hope the 'dear' was meant well- I shall take it as such :)

  23. Psychodiva

    anyway- the Egyptians did not write the Bible- so it negates the point

  24. Guest

    I agree the name calling is like a ping pong match. But in most long debate, the atheist will do the name calling while the opposite view *most of the time* won't.
    Look at your most liked members, all atheists and many of which often voice such name calling. As for me i am only there because i have commented on pot a lot and i don't care what people believe, i state "mostly" what i believe without attacking other's views and I too pass as a looney!
    Your position is a difficult one, and you ride it well!

  25. Guest

    His naming of Ignorant Desert Dwellers is an attact towards people of the past in general.
    This of course is again my impression which could very well be wrong. I don't have the liberty to ask him what he meant, but i could see that instantly the whole place got shook.
    As i said above, i do line my thoughts with Dawkins on a lot of what was said.
    You are right with the dear either way, now and then.


  26. Guest

    Finally a program with some non-idi*ts who can in fact understand the Bible.

  27. Guest

    I believe you misunderstand the meaning of the word ignorant. Dawkins wasn't name calling he was merely stating a fact. Before these stories were written down they were told by people who had no other way of understanding the natural world. An example would be an earthquake which destroys your enemy's city. Ignorance of what an earthquake really is would lead you to surmise that God had destroyed your enemy's city because perhaps they believed in a false god and your city was spared because you believed in the true God. You must remember it is ignorance that leads you to believe this as truth.

  28. Guest

    Your statement is right.
    Dawkins still could have said it differently and i wouldn't be surprised if he could back up, he would have stated it differently too.
    No big deal, the guy is very smart and all of us at times let words slip.

  29. Guest

    One other comment and then I'll shut up. Ignorance from lack of knowledge is one thing and I can accept that because you don't know you are ignorant. But when you have the knowledge right in front of you and you remain willfully ignorant, well, that is quite a different matter.

  30. Saturnine9

    I think it is absolutely fantastic how people of our age think about the peoples of the past. So sure about what they "in fact" had in mind.

  31. Guest

    When people say: 1 other comment and i'll shut up, they often use one of their last arrow for a last attack.
    There is a lot of knowledge that is not in front of us. It is perhaps a knowledge that is more ancient than any book keeping.

  32. Saturnine9

    What exactly do you have in mind?

  33. Winston Smith

    what 'scholars ' agree that jesus existed?
    There are a few references to someone but no contemporary historical bio showing that the reality was much different than the myth.

    Who could look at the bible and not see it is symbolic book?
    'He who has ears, (or eyes) let them hear/see" "jesus explain your parables to us" it says. I mean, it is so overtly obvious. The man can walk on water (matter) and raise the 'dead' make the blind 'see'. Despite this ability to walk above the water he gets in a boat (means a journey) and even peter (a disciple) can 'walk above the water' if his 'faith' is strong enough.'

    How does ANYONE interpret this literally? Ignorance of other allegorical literature from the period and the history and nature of religion. these people fulfill it's exoteric by taking stories literally as literal. ("let his who has ears hear' -and why an oral teaching/tradition almost always accompanied mystical texts, regardless of their tradition.

    Despite his supposed miracles among so many common people we have no real historical account of the man; jesus. Somehow much lesser figures of the period left full bios to posterity but for jesus we get --what?
    a few mentions to a Xtian crucifixion and these obviously esoteric mystical texts from generations later! based on myths and motifs that stretch back into the most ancient times, and changed dramatically as the centuries progressed.. **Read the nag hammadi texts (what a gift to humanity! People were burned alive for possessing those works) But LOOK what they say. They reveal a very eclectic early Xtian world. some are more gnostic. others hermetic, some clearly show an eastern influence. All are fascinating _and online free^^

  34. Gary V

    It was refreshing to see that all except the evangelist agreed that the Bible should not be taken as historical fact. At least there is something that most of us can agree on. I thought that Dr Francesca Stavrakopoulou came over as the most rational person there, where as the Right Reverend Michael Nazir Ali, the former Bishop of Rochester could not hold a proper argument. Professor Richard Dawkins, as usual just got frustrated by his inability to understand why people believe in outdated myths & Rabbi Laura Janner-Klausner came over as a very intelligent person, even if she is misguided. As for the subject of morality, if you need to read a book in order to know what is right & wrong, then you are seriously lacking in intelligence. As for the big question "Is The Bible Still Relevant Today ?" my answer is definitely NO, certainly no more relevant than any other outdated myths. Secular Humanism is the ONLY way for Humanity to progress.

  35. Epicurean_Logic

    "what 'scholars ' agree that jesus existed?" Yes what scholars? and do these scholars also believe that he did miracles?

    Nazir Ali was on the defensive and didn't let Francesca speak and finish her points, he kept on cutting in.

  36. Guest

    I wasn't attacking anyone. Just showing the two types of ignorance. Dawkins
    was speaking of the first type but the others understood him to be using the second type. Jeez.

  37. Guest

    One last arrow. I realize the phrasing of my comment could have been clearer. I apologize for that. It comes from not paying attention in English classes. My ignorance of the second type.

  38. Guest

    Did the fact that i am French made me misunderstand what you were writing? "you don't know you are ignorant"...sounds like an attack to me. Now i see that "may be" you meant: one doesn't know he is ignorant.
    Jeez, is that from Jesus?

  39. Guest

    Why would you say are very welcomed to comment as much as your mind will permit. That is what makes TDF such a great place to socialize. We are what we are and the more we are the better we all are.

  40. Saturnine9

    I didn't think so. I think Dawkins was just being arrogant.

  41. misterwong

    Although I was unable to find textual reports of Jesus written during his ministry,I discovered quite a large(surprisingly)number of extra-biblical historical references from first century chronicles :Clement,Phlegon,Tacitus(Roman sources)Josephus (the jewish historian)the gnostic texts,references in the Talmud,Mara serapion of Syria .Roman historians after the 1st century describe the Christ -cultists,their beliefs and rituals and their worship of Jesus,whose existance was not disputed as public record.Despite the lack scholarly eyewitness writings,the secular,jewish and Gnostic references are compelling

  42. Albertine Synnøve

    the bible will never be relevant.

  43. Gary V

    Thanks Vlatko for this superb doc & thanks to everyone here on TDF for an excellent discussion about it. ?

  44. Rob Forgeron

    rational minds must assert that the bible is outmoded and no longer relevant or understood by many people . in general the more educated you become the less and less plausible the bible becomes .

  45. Rob Forgeron

    rational minds must assert that the bible is outmoded and no longer relevant or understood by many people . in general the more educated you become the less and less plausible the bible becomes .

  46. misterwong

    Though the Bible describes historical events,(often hotly debated as to their veracity)I don't accept it as historical authority.Still,for many centuries the ancient Hebrew and Greek scriptures were the foundation of the Judaic-Chistian understanding of History itself!We tend to view history as valuable if it can be scientifically verifiable.,Like an archaeological artifact.These writings however,reveal the collective consciousness of a people in an alien time,place.society.The harsh reality of their lives,the Wars,slavery,famine,and Monothiestic devotion.So to suggest it has NO historical value is naiive.These writings are a huge impact on the psyche and identity of modern western civilization even now,for believers of all or none religions.This document in its many forms,has driven the world political,economic,societal evolutions.And that IS history.OUR history

  47. jonesyhillcrest

    Really disappointed in Dawkins this time out - looked a bit lacklustre in the debate and repetitive. Not helped by Nazir Ali's arrogant rudeness throughout. Thought Dr Francesca Stavrakopoulou, who I've never heard of before, was lovely!
    I especially enjoyed the way the evangelical guy grinned aimlessly throughout as if floating on a cloud of his own absurdness.

  48. jonesyhillcrest

    Tacitus - disputed, Josephus - highly disputed. The rest reporting on what others thought, not knew. hardly compelling, unless you want to find evidence wherever it may lie.

  49. jonesyhillcrest

    Very true - I know Dawkins comes across as arrogant but Ali topped him on this one. The scholars thing is a very devious ploy by christian apologists. Most non-biblical scribes were merely reporting what had been handed down to them by others through word of mouth. The passages are short and generally form a minor part of longer texts. They generally just happen to mention a bloke called Jesus/Christ. As you say, they mention the bloke but generally say nothing of his status. You'd have thought he would get a top billing if there was anything special about him.

  50. adilrye

    Will never be? For hundreds of years it was incredibly relevant to the daily lives of people in Europe and today it is still relevant to millions across the world.

    Maybe not to you, but to hundreds of millions of people, of course it is.

  51. adilrye

    Of course it's still relevant, maybe not to the TDF crowd, but to a lot of people around the world, from West to East. To claim the Bible is not relevant would be shielding yourself from the hundreds of millions of people who still adhere strictly to the Bible's words.

    You can disagree or agree with these communities, but the fact is, they exist. Christianity is still the world's largest religion, and now a majority live outside the West. Even excluding "secular" or "cultural" Christians, there are still so many who hold the Bible dearly.

    The guy put it perfectly. It's still the top selling book in the world for a reason.

    Just my two cents.

  52. Epicurus

    im not a Dawkins fan boy however he said they were ignorant in respect to the knowledge we have today. not that they were stupid, but they lacked certain information we are privy to.

  53. Epicurus

    it would have been an epic conversation that would have gone down in history as the greatest discourse ever had!

    hey name was first..just saying lol.

    i think with the people you chose for that panel it would stay pretty civil...i might make a couple scoffing noises or facepalm a couple times but i dont think anyones mothers weight would come into it.

  54. Ramus73

    I think the question should be is Religion still relevant today.

  55. Ramus73

    I thought you were Canadian..... or is that the same thing.

  56. David Foster

    Exactly! It tells us where we are, how we got here, and what motivates a great many people (many of them rather scary). I often suggest that people read it for that very reason. Of course, that has me labeled a "bible-thumper" more often than not. Oh well.. What can ya do?

  57. David Foster

    Someone who has read the book cover to cover, and then taken a good look at the world we live in, may tend to disagree.

  58. adilrye

    No, they literally mean the Bible. Not religion, not Christianity or Judaism, but the Bible.

  59. Anthony Skordi

    Think? Probably? What is she basing this on?

  60. Blank Blank

    I am sure we can all agree that there is many ancient stories and/or literature that has been forgotten. Religion/Bible is worthless in keeping one alive, keeping up with current mores, along with other things humans tend to do. I find it simply to be an (item) that individuals cling to because it is to mind straining to accept/learn today's knowledge. Rather blindly/faithfully accept answers that form the most ridiculous answers to date. Alas we atheist are left with an overwhelming amount of intellectual cop-outs.

  61. roger bajaj

    Disappointed in Richard Dawkins this time out - looked a bit lacklustre in the debate and somewhat repetitive. He was not helped by Nazir Ali's arrogance and rudeness throughout. Dr Francesca Stavrakopoulou, was lovely!
    I especially enjoyed the way she handled herself and funnily enough I tend to agree with her point of view more so than that of Nazir Ali.
    I adhere to the Hindu faith and have yet to read the bible, after hearing the debate I am more inclined to read it now !
    Thanks Dr Francesca and the panel for motivating me to take up Bible Study.

  62. koopaatroopa

    "Do not do to others what you do not want done to yourself." This Quote was written by a man named Confucius who lived around 500bc. i find it extremely unlikely that the 10 commandments have shaped us into the virtuous humans we are today...

  63. Epicurus

    Richard Dawkins reactions in this are completely warranted. why would people applaud the idea that for forgiveness to occur there must come cost...especially the cost of a person being tortured and murdered?

    he is being as arrogant as any of us would be if we were debating someone who told us storks bring babies.

    his explanation for cherry picking was dead on. he explained that the cherry picking is done from already formed moral beliefs. so we dont get those morals from the bible.

    im really confused as to why people are saying Dawkins was being arrogant...maybe it is my bias against religion but if you could give an example of him being arrogant that might help me. he just seemed like he didnt want to be there and he found the whole thing silly and frustrated by people saying things that were not true and have been demonstrated so by empirical studies.

    personally i think Dr Francesca Stavrakopoulou was the most impressive on the panel.

  64. greyspoppa

    how many people you know have ever paid money for a bible? you can get a bible for free anywhere and go online and get for free the most extencive collection possible, i mean any bible ever written, but alas they were paid for by people that want to brainwash you and take all your money, they buy all those wildly high selling bibles with the money of the brainwashed people before. it's just idiocy in the highest realm of myth ever played on the human race because were all so scared of our own damn shadow that we feel like we need religion to protect us.sad, so sad.

  65. Nakor420

    Pffft the "bible" Genesis is taken directly from the cuniform clay tablets left the by the ancient sumerians. The genesis in the bible is completely differant from the original version. Read the Book of Enki by Zecheria Sitchen if you want some real history.

  66. Martin Ellacott

    Because there is no god, I find the whole argument moot and trite. Biblical in big hats...arguing over our imaginary best friends....What a crock......The video it's self was entertaining and that's all it was meant to be.

  67. alans

    Read the bible,interpret it how you wish, and take from it whatever you want, if it gives meaning to your life and makes you feel better. Some people need it, others don't. However, if you want physical evidence and proof, science is the way. A scientifically minded person having a debate with a belief minded person is pointless. This is like two people speaking different languages, trying to understand each other.

  68. Jack1952

    If history is relevant then the Bible has to be relevant. The veracity of the Bible itself may be questionable but there is no doubt that it has been a major contributor to the making of human history for the last 2000 years. One cannot know our past without having a basic understanding of a major influence on that past. One does not have to be a believer to appreciate how large an impact the Bible has had and continues to have on the lives of everyone on this planet.

  69. Jack1952

    The Bible as history is implausible. As an influence on our lives, however, it still holds great power. Its relevance is demonstrated by that influence.

  70. Jack1952

    It is relevant to him, also. Decisions are made all the time on the belief in the Bible, that impact all our lives. That makes it relevant to all of us whether we like it or not.

  71. Jack1952

    That there is no historical account of Jesus does not prove that he did not exist, just as the Bible does not prove that he did. If he did exist it could be quite likely that there were people who believed that he was a miracle worker. There are a lot of people today who believe in faith healers. It doesn't have to be a rational belief.

  72. misterwong

    The story of Creation as told by the Sumerians is one version in the long tradition of creation tales as over time,the fable's details take on variants.Genesis is but one telling that finds its way into the Bible.Simply by the virtue of preceding the bible doesn't make it any more or less believable

  73. Vlatko

    I disagree @David. There are lot of people who have read the book cover to cover, and taken a good look at the world we live in, and tend to agree with @Rob.

  74. misterwong

    Does the rational mind also assert that Macchiavelli's treatise on power and politics"Il Principe" or Sun Tzu's "Art of War"irrelavant?We have computer graphics ,digital imagery does this render the masterworks of Van Gogh,Michaelangelo,all Renaissance art outmoded and irrelavant as well?Will we be victims of our own intellctual Pride?Joseph Campbell wrote that we mistakenly percieve things through its' DENOtation (Literal relavance)instead of its' CON
    Otation(implied actual Relevance)

  75. Vlatko

    You're right @leonardobdas. I've updated the post linked above in the description.

  76. misterwong

    Incidentally,the books by Sitchen contain some pretty imaginative Ancient Aliens and ET Astronaut theories ala Von Danneken.Not as far a stretch as Scientology,but still pretty far out there.Literally.Personally not my concept of Real History

  77. ZarathustraSpeaks

    Your assumption that a "scientifically minded and belief minded" person cannot be the same person is a false assumption(implied). They can exist with no contradiction as long as you recognize one is based on actual observation and one on faith alone. Their is no debateonly recognition of the difference.debate

  78. kris sto

    Richard Dawkins??? What are you doing with these psychos over there?
    Religions and especially Christianity, is the biggest scam ever......a bunch of murderers.

  79. SaintNarcissus

    Good on you for mentioning Joseph Campbell. I have been thinking that many of his ideas and insights would enrich this conversation.

  80. misterwong

    O.K. I guess I should really answer the real question.The Bible has provided comfort and inspiration,revelation and guidance to countless folks for 2 millenea.It's not historically accurate.It's useless to explain any Sciences,It's predictions are all contrived from retrospect.Many key persons in it are fictitious and their acts of devotion morally or rationally unsound ,and it cannot prove one damn thing about God or anything else.The Wisdom and lessons within aren't exclusive and are found in other holy books and Pagan religions.Is it indispensible?Nope...But,is it relevant to US?Well,yeah.It's tales about US isn't it?Oppressive Empires,boy-King heroes,epic battles,escapes,victory and defeat,Magic and Miracles,lust greed,incest,murder,loss and redemption AND Unknown Divine Powers kindness compassion and Ultimate Sacrifice....A long time ago in a Galaxy not so far away..

  81. Guest

    Who are you talking to Ramus? Do as i do...use reply.

  82. Guest

    It appears as if the rest of the gang is out on vacation...

  83. Boxoun

    Zeus is older than jesus. Why not study zeus and pray to zeus then put a tooth under the pillow and wait for coins.

  84. NAND Gate

    I got lost at the part where people found the idea of love, kindness and compassion such an alien concept, that the dude sprouting the ideas must be a God.

    What happened after that part, anyway? He must have been treated really well right?

  85. NAND Gate is like one person speaking the language of the universe, and another speaking one they made up.

  86. Epicurus

    actually most people who have de-converted from christianity to atheism have done so AFTER reading the bible and thinking about it logically.

    only one who suspends rationality and logic can read the bible and think it has truth to it.

  87. from212

    Even though you are right about the bible, you are wrong about everything else.

    The Earth's Magnetosphere is weakening but not because it is going to disappear, but most likely it will invert it's polarity in the next few hundred years or so. There is plenty of scientific evidence of this phenomenon happening in the past every 30,000 years or so, Just Google pole reversal.

    The magnetosphere has absolutely NOTHING to do with matter burning up as it enters our atmosphere. Our magnetosphere only shields us from the sun's otherwise deadly radiation.

    The reason most meteors burn up in the atmosphere is because they are moving at extremely fast speeds and upon contact with air it creates a massive amount of friction and resistance. Similar to the sting and resistance you get when smacking into a pool of water at high speeds.

    Our current technology limits our space travel speed to about 20,000 MPH which means it will take about 35,000 years to travel 1 light-year. Our nearest stars (which most likely do not contain habitable planets) are about 5 light-years away.

  88. Guest

    I find it curious that no panelist(?) in this debate(?) directly addressed the question, "Is the Bible relevant?", which is a much larger question than why or why not the Bible is relevant to me.

  89. Ramus73

    hmmmm I swear I did press reply. Disqus doesn't like me. Bring back the old chat Vlatko. And yes I was talking to you AZ.

  90. Ramus73

    So is the Bible not considered religious?

  91. Hodd

    Well said, and objective.

  92. StillRV

    I agree with Epic on this one. (rare but not unheard of). It truly would be an epic discussion, However after the first hour or so it would just move into a pile-up of sarcastic barbs. I would start a drinking game with myself where I have to chug a beer for every time Achems says religee. Half an hour after that I would be hitting on WTC and would subsequently get slapped. Vlatko would film the entire proceeds and become a billionaire selling DVDs of the first ever Round Table Royal Rumble.

  93. StillRV

    And yes I know that I would be the cause of at leas 5 scoffs and 2 facepalms.

  94. Farzad Azad

    it was really beneath richard's status.

  95. Guest

    Canadian? yes
    French? yes
    Read the bible? never did
    Heard of the bible's content? many times
    Think it has been important in the past? yes
    Think it's important for the future? no

    I rather read an old encyclopaedia Brittanica. My truth can also be found there too.

  96. wald0

    The bible is relevant because one cannot hope to understand the history of Western civilization without first understanding the roles of Judaism and Christianity and how they helped shape the old world and still shape the new. The bible is relevant because it is great literature with lots of contextual clues about the past, not facts mind you just clues. The bible is relevant because somewhere around forty percent of the bubbas in the US take it literally and live accordingly-which leads to abortion doctors getting killed and children being denied hospital care so they can be at the local faith healers snake pit Friday night. It has nothing to do with whether it is fact or fiction, whether you believe or not, whether Jesus was even real (yes I know most scholars think he was). I was surprised that they never really made much of an attempt to answer their own question, right away the preacher man got offended and the rest of the show went down that old familiar path of, “I know he is real because he revealed himself personally to me, and therefore the bible is historically accurate and blah..blah…blah” followed by many odd looks by Dawkins as he simultaneously tries to respond while thinking WTF over and over.

  97. saburius

    This is such a bull! I didn't get any of it. What exactly was the point of this show. This was not an intellectually honest discussion. It was not a historically or scientifically accurate discussion. It was a roomful of indoctrinated, brainwashed morons clapping for anything that is irrational.

    Richard Dawkins should not be participating in something like this especially considering the fact that he is NOT an effective communicator in religious debates. He is incapable of making a point that resonates and gets across to the Dumb-Fockers.

    The only effective weapon of choice is ridicule and embarrassment via verifiable facts. Dawkins needs to learn how to laugh these people out of the room because the very idea of religious indoctrination is to be blind to reason and rational. Therefore an intelligent, fact-based conversation is automatically out of question.

    You can't talk a wolf into herding the sheep or the fox to guard the hen-house... That's like talking to the wall ... You're wasting your time!

  98. saburius

    This is such a bull! I didn't get any of it. What exactly was the point of this show. This was not an intellectually honest discussion. It was not a historically or scientifically accurate discussion. It was a roomful of indoctrinated, brainwashed morons clapping for anything that is irrational.

    Richard Dawkins should not be participating in something like this especially considering the fact that he is NOT an effective communicator in religious debates. He is incapable of making a point that resonates and gets across to the Dumb-Fockers.

    The only effective weapon of choice is ridicule and embarrassment via verifiable facts. Dawkins needs to learn how to laugh these people out of the room because the very idea of religious indoctrination is to be blind to reason and rational. Therefore an intelligent, fact-based conversation is automatically out of question.

    You can't talk a wolf into herding the sheep or the fox to guard the hen-house... That's like talking to the wall ... You're wasting your time!

  99. Clifford William Thomas

    Well, when the aliens land and make themselves known, will religion be quashed for good? Would priests see them as devils or angels or simply more unconverted minds? Maybe they will bring their own religion.

    Truly though, the more we learn about the world and the more people are properly educated religion will become less and less relevent to dwindling numbers of people. It most likely wont be in my lifetime that religion will be quashed, but it will happen eventually.

  100. David Foster

    If a work of literature survives the ages, it is because the the people who read it find some measure of truth in it. Otherwise it would fade into oblivion, like so many other ancient scribblings. It is just that simple.

    I have read it. I find much truth in it. Those who haven't read it, well.. Preach on, for all I care! You only make the truth more apparent! :-)

  101. David Foster

    To put it simply, you have it a bit sideways... The people were LOOKING for a god (specifically, one to overthrow Rome); but instead, here comes this guy preaching love, trust, and compassion. It wasn't what they were looking for, so they killed him (ironically, by handing him over to the Romans). In a similar twist of irony, in the years that followed he actually DID manage to destroy Rome, such as it was (one might call that a resurrection, of sorts). Now we're all just one big happy Judeo/Christian/Muslim empire covering the entire planet. Anno Domini. Nice!

  102. David Foster

    There are ALWAYS exceptions.

  103. Nwttp

    You fail to take into account that most people are easily brainwashed. Mix that with the fact that most religious nuts are raised that way, and your comment doesn't hold much water.

  104. Darnell Holland

    People here are complaining about richard dawnkins....... don't blame him. It was the unstructured platform he was participating on.

  105. David Foster

    You should consider your own words: "brainwashed".. "religious nuts". They reveal a certain contempt.

  106. David Foster

    Many do.

  107. wald0

    I have read it, and studied it extensively in college- its still rubbish to me. If you get something out of it thats good, read it everyday. But, it should not have the pivledged status that it has. It contains no more truth nor spiritual insight or impact than say the writings of Buddah or the Koran, which have also lasted for exstensive amounts of time and have followers that are just as passionate and devout as yourself. They are simply clinging to what they know and have grown up with same as you are, you just happen to live in the west so you follow christianity.

    The rub comes in when you realize that something so fickle controls such a large amount of what happens on this tiny planet. People are opressed and eventually murdered, people are manipulated into refusing medical care and are talked into killing abortion doctors, people ignore science and the warnings it gives us about the demise of our way of life and entire planet, children are denied a proper education based on scientific fact and emperical data, and most of all it allows politicians to exploit the prejudices and simple minded ignorance of the every day person- all in the name of some higher morality or truth that I have yet to see manifest itself in this world. In the end it does more harm to society overall than good, no matter what it does for your personal experience on this earth.

    Chrstianity is the most predominate religion in my region so I referr to it mostly. But, any religion has the potential to be abused and used the same way, I am not picking on christianity. In fact spiritual belief of any kind is dangerous. As soon as man believes he begins to see the world through a filtered reality. Maybe we should approach the world as if we only understand probabilities, in otherwords- when I release this ball it is most probable that it will fall to the ground. This way we could still prepare for the short and long term future yet remain open minded enough to see things only as they are and not how we preconcieved them to be.

  108. David Foster

    Maybe it's because I read the book and believed it, that I see a very different reality. But, in a nutshell, what the book told me is this:

    ***Because you have turned your back on me, and the creation I gave you to tend, I give you this word, that you may carry it into the whole world, so that you may either return to me, or be destroyed.***

    So far, I think it has done an excellent job.

    And from what I understand of current science, it all supports the warning. We can argue until we are blue in the face, whether or not there is an invisible man in the cloud; but in the end, we will have made our world uninhabitable. That's the lesson I got. Your mileage may vary.

  109. Nwttp

    The words in which I chose to use hardly make my point moot. Why not retort with actual thought, rather than a critique of my vocabulary?

  110. David Foster

    I think what rankles the atheists most is that we record time ala Jesus.. Anno Domini ("In the Year of Our Lord").

    Richard Dawkins is such a zealous anti-christian that I sometimes wonder if he isn't the guy who coined the term: "Common Era". I'll bet that whoever it was is pissed that he couldn't get the dates changed! :-)

  111. KsDevil

    Everyone expressed their rationalizations on the bible. Fair enough. But in the end, to answer the question expressed by the topic, rationalized opinion was, again, used. A good bit of drama, but don't expect much else.
    BTW, this show looks like it was taped quite a few years ago as Dawkins is rather young here. Coincidence one panelist mentioned 2011?

  112. Nwttp

    Let me edit edit out my previous comment's "judgmental words" for you.

    "You fail to take into account that most people are easily convinced of things that are logically preposterous. Mix that with the fact that most religious zealots are raised that way, and your comment doesn't hold much water."

    Are you saying those two things are not true?

  113. David Foster

    So, if someone were to understand the universe as the first and primary source of life, sometimes known as "God", what do you say to that person?

  114. David Foster

    Still we managed to make it to a population of seven billion, and suffocating, despite religion (or was that BECAUSE of science?). As I recall, it was the bible which warned us to keep it in our pants.

    I don't condone religion. I never have. Priests, as far as I am concerned, are nothing but cartoon monkeys making a mockery of everything. Come to think of it, I think Jesus said something quite similar.

  115. Norm

    What about Einstein and his beliefs? Both a scientific genius and a religious man.

  116. Norm

    What about Einstein and his beliefs? Both a scientific genius and a religious man.

  117. Norm

    History is full of non-religious leaders who slaughtered millions.

  118. David Foster

    "Like Santa Claus", you mean? I got over my belief in Santa Claus when I saw that it was not true. I have not seen that my understanding of God is untrue. When and if I ever DO, I will make the appropriate adjustments.

    As for the zealots; yes, there are always those who take their beliefs a bit too seriously. But a biblical zealot who would KILL obviously did not take the words of his/her own book to heart. I can't speak for any other book.

    My BIGGEST beef is with Catholic church. "Yeah, sure; go f*** up whatever you like.. just make sure you come say a few Hail Mary's next Sunday". Show me where it says you can do THAT in the Bible!

    No, I'm not saying you're wrong. What I am saying is that this argument isn't anything new.. It's IN THE BOOK! The Bible is probably the best manual on human nature ever written.

  119. David Foster

    People believe what they are told until something comes along to disprove it. Nothing I have seen so far has demonstrated hat the wisdom contained in that book is invalid. In fact, my life experiences have only served to reinforce my understanding of it. If that makes me a zealot, then so be it.

  120. David Foster

    heh... No $hit, huh? One might even go as far as to say the last big slaughter was in no small part due to a bunch of atheists (Nazis) going after a religious community (Jews) whom they blamed for all of their woes (i.e. wanted to rebuild Germany after WWI and needed some money).

    Hmm... sounds strangely familiar...

  121. misterwong

    David,I think you got it

  122. Epicurus

    what did he do or say that was arrogant?

  123. over the edge

    hitler was christian. he never denounced his faith, he used the bible and jesus to justify his atrocities (speeches) and was never excommunicated.

  124. David Foster

    So, Hitler was a "True Believer"? His would be a very twisted interpretation, indeed.

  125. over the edge

    just because a work of literature survives the ages doesn't make it true. Greek,Egyptian and Norse mythology is older and contain some truth. does the fact that they are older make them more true?

  126. over the edge

    i never said that hitler was a "true believer". but the fact that he was never excommunicated is disturbing. and my response was only to show the falsehood of your statement. it is you that are making claims i am only disputing them

  127. David Foster

    @Epicurius: You misjudge me, sir. I have no distaste for atheists, or Dawkins in particular. However, I do find him to be a bit fanatical.

  128. misterwong

    True enuff,Norman.The Communist leaders like Stalin and Mao rubbed out religion as it poses a threat to the authority of the State.To wield totalitarian power,the State represents God.The Nazis created their own mythology to support the agenda of eugenics and racial purity.A Norse-Aryan religion with Der Furher as the Deity.Kim Jon Il is still regarded as a God on earth by North Koreans,and his word is divine.Either way though,it shows that the People gotta fear and worship SOMETHING!Strange,huh?

  129. David Foster

    @ over the edge and Epicurius: Fair enough. Point noted. Still, I would find it hard to believe that, to Hitler, God was anything more than a tool to control the masses. If I had to guess, that would apply to probably 99 out of 100 so-called "Christian Politicians". THEY are what give religion a bad name, not the scriptures!

  130. David Foster

    Wherein did I say that one was any more true than another? The Bible survives to this day because people identify with it. Same reason Buddhism survives; and Shamanism survives.

    Every culture has developed a religion of some sort. Every one! Some have deities; some don't. But every one tries to answer the big question: "Why are we here?". It's probably one of the first questions a child asks. And each culture tries to provide an answer in it's own way.

    Then we came along and crushed all of them (historically speaking). We did it with Bible in hand, so I guess that makes our God look like the culprit. But I tend to blame it on something a little more human.

  131. misterwong

    HEY!!! Remember that May 21,2011 is the RAPTURE!! I don't have all the details(time,place,attire,parking,etc.)but it's a GO,I am told.THAT should make the Bible pretty damn relevant,HUH? Man,I would hate to be Dawkins on THAT day!Following the Rapture will be a period of torment for five months(you may want to arrive late for this part)before Oct,21,2011 aka BIG BANG II ,THE RECKONING.(If you are a Creationist,you are only allowed to believe in one Big Bang.)On this day,the World will be destroyed!If for some reason these events do not come to pass(rain,plagues,scourges)there is STILL December 21,2012.

  132. David Foster


  133. Epicurus

    but why do you believe there is a creator?

    and is it possible that there is no intelligent creator?

    i do like your comments so im not challenging you for no reason, just want to hear your thoughts.

  134. Epicurus

    alright. i stand corrected. after reading pretty much all of your comments i can my initial (knee jerk) assessment of you was wrong.

  135. NAND Gate

    I would say "you have no evidence that that the universe is the primary source of life. There could be previously existing universes, or this universe could be nested in another. Stop making up stuff."

  136. NAND Gate

    Hoorah for misunderstanding!!!

  137. NAND Gate

    I cant wait for Dec 22, 2012. Then I will have every right to tell every religious/prophet/whacko to STFU - every prediction from every religion has turned out to be incorrect, and we are now living in post-prophecy times. You are irrelevant. Get off my planet.

  138. Guest

    In my opinion, any book that can bring the best of a person to rise above it's "selfishyness" and provide this person with the right frame of mind to play life as if it is a game and not a cross to carry, then i believe this person is reading the right book for him/her to experience "selflessness".
    If that is the bible or the koran or some transcription from some Indian Guru or the phone book, then yes that book is spiritually "feeding" the self, the i.

    For me books like Le Petit Prince, The Alchimist, Poems of Rabindranath Tagore, The Prophet by Gibran (i did go to his museum in Lebanon) were some of the books that replaced the bible for me in my life.
    The book i go back to the most is the one i have conceptualized and never published.

  139. misterwong

    You should sell tickets.Sell ,,what you call 'em?...Indulgences..make a mint.Of course,If a huge Meteor DOES happen to slam into the Earth that day,Won't WE feel like a couple of A**holes?

  140. Guest

    @EPicurus..I am going to try to guess for him (for fun), because he thinks he was created.

  141. David Foster

    @Epicurius: I have read many religious and philosophical books. So many I can't keep them straight half of the time. The ones I like most are the eastern Buddhist traditions. No deity to speak of; just nature. I find similarities in the Biblical writings; particularly in Jesus' teachings. I am sure that he may have had some Buddhist influence along the way.

    Do I believe in a "creator"? It all depends on how one defines creation. I see myself as part of a greater whole, called Cosmos. As the Iroquois saying goes: "We do not separate the creator from the creation"; and neither do I.

    Do I believe in the Genesis creation story? No. It is a kids story, meant to teach a moral. Do I believe in the moral? Absolutely!

  142. Guest

    Although i liked your response, i can't approve of your last phrase because i don't know what the moral of the Genesis is supposed to be.

  143. David Foster

    "you have no evidence that that the universe is the primary source of life. There could be previously existing universes, or this universe could be nested in another."

    To that, I say: "Your answer appears no less contrived than mine. Stop making up stuff."

  144. wald0

    Very true, getting rid of religion will not stop war or murder. In my opinion most of those that kill in the name of whatever religion simply use that religion as a way of justifying what they are already doing, or to help them manipulate others and gain support for what they desire. Religion has the inherent qaulity of stirring peoples passions while gaining their extreme loyalty, even unto thier own death or the deaths of others. This serves to devide the peoples of this earth and causes preconcieved ideas about what is right and wrong, what should be tolerated and what should be extinguished, which in turn serves to keep us divided and hands the perfect tool to despots and crooks, slick politiicans, dictators and war lords, etc.

    We all are born with a moral compass, we instinctively know that murder and mayhem in general are counter productive to society, we instinctively know that lying is unproductive, that stealing is unproductive, etc. This is a product of the thousands of years of evolution that has produced the modern brain, it has not always been this way. We even understand alot about what structures in the brain contribute to feeling scared, guilty, happy, angry and can trace the evolution of these structures backward through time. We can study the societies of the ancient past up through the present and clearly see the concepts of altruism and reciprocity forming, and as these concepts form we begin to see the first signs of a common morality and a sense of shared responsibility. If these things were a gift from some god then we would have possessed the same moral and ethical concerns in Mesopatamia as we do now in the US, we would not see these concepts forming over time and being slowly woven into the laws of man. Our morality and ethical codes are driven by our experiences as we live together in larger and larger groups and attempt to get along in a productive fashion, not by some divine voice or experience we have some night in the desert.

  145. David Foster

    Hey, no biggie. This is the Internet.

    Besides.. Twice now I've misspelled Epicurus. Sorry about that.

  146. David Foster

    @Azilda: The moral of the book of Genesis (a personal interpretation, of course):

    The Lord (God, Yahweh, The Great Spaghetti Monster, whatever you want to call him) said: "Do not eat of the tree of knowledge which is in the midst of the garden; for in that day, you shall surely die.". But, we couldn't help ourselves. Y'all know the rest.

    So, here we are in the modern world... We all pretty much understand that: "Knowledge is Power"; "Power Corrupts"; and "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely".. From here, the only logical conclusion is that: "He who possesses the most Power is the most Corrupt".

    Enter the Good Ol' U.S. of A.; Knowledge Capital of the World. And what is our #1 export?

    "That's right folks; We ARE the Military-Industrial Complex! Your One-Stop-Shop for all your territorial acquisition needs! Bomb a village today and get a FREE Pepsi factory with every pharmaceutical company you install! Act NOW, and get TWO nukes for the price of ONE! Don't be the first to die in the Apocalypse! Call Today!! Dial: 1-666-MESSIAH! That's: 1-666-MESSIAH! Because ETERNITY is worth DYING FOR!"


    The moral of Genesis (and really the whole book, for that matter): "You may do well to listen to those who who have been around the block once or twice".

  147. wald0

    First of all the Nazis were not athiests but christians. Secondly, the second world war was not started in order to go after the Jews, that was just another sick item on Hitlers list. Third, Hitler believed in God very much, he believed he was chosen by god to save the German peoples. He even tried many times to look into psychics and so forth to see if they could speak with god so that he might fully understand his destiny, so infact your example only furthers our point that people use religion to justify horrible immorality to both themselves and others.

    All of that aside, when we say religion contributes to war and murder we are not saying the wars necessarily spring from the religion itself, only that they are justified that way. At least thats what I am saying. Islam is the only religion I know of that tells its followers to kill non believers out right and even it goes on to say that when your enemies are no longer a threat we should show them mercy and kindness. The post I wrote above explains this point further.

    But it doesn't matter what the text actually says because people interpret it to mean whatever they want it to and then feel completley justified in thier convictions, again Islam is a good example. To me religion is like a drug, its the easy way out that usually ends up hurting more than it helps, it makes people do things they normally would not do, it is addictive to the point people will kill over it, it dominates your life and takes all your money while it conviences you of lies, etc., etc. Isn't it time we grew up and took responsibility for our own actions and desires?

  148. David Foster

    Your saying that "we instinctively know that lying and stealing are unproductive" makes me think you don't have any kids.

  149. David Foster

    @wald0: I already conceded that it was a bad example. I'm sorry I said it.

  150. NAND Gate

    ROFL misterwong 's post cracked me up. I am gunna feel like a REAL ass if a meteor hits us that day, and I might have to swallow my skepticism and start a religion.

  151. NAND Gate

    I am now selling tickets to 22nd Dec, 2012. Without a ticket, you will be taken up in the Rapture/Armageddon. With a ticket of mine, my god has promised me you will wake up the next day as per normal.

  152. David Foster

    Meteor? I thought it was planet Nibiru? Man, I'm tell in ya, it's a bitc# keeping track of all these apocalypses!

  153. Steven Abrahams

    The Biggiest Question isnt bout the bible at all .... The question should be does god exist ???? If he does then atheism dies out , if he doesnt exist then theism dies out .. THE END

  154. David Foster

    What I find most relevant is:

    -There is a Christian Nation currently holding all other nations hostage...
    -Whose foreign policy is based entirely on The Revelation of Jesus Christ...
    -And who wields enough firepower to destroy all life on this planet probably 50 times over.

    At this point, I don't see the question of God's existence making all that much difference

  155. jlxn

    In a word. No.

  156. Sieben Stern

    go get em, Dawkins! ^^

  157. Sieben Stern

    Guy Otten makes the best point - by cherrypicking morality in the bible we are making decisions abut morality outside the bible, therefore morality has developed externally, through evolution of culture the human race and does not come from the bible.

    and dawkins on the 10 commandments is epic @3@
    why isn't rape included?

  158. Epicurus

    he was NOT a religious man.

    "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly." - Albert Einstein.

  159. John Gros

    Jesus was pro slavery, anti witch, anti gay, anti disobedient child. The caste system in India is a function of religion. Without religion it would have been gone long ago. Slavery took so long to die, because of religion.

  160. Norm

    "A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man." - Albert Einstein

    Religion: the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices.

    By definition scientists are religious in their own right as they can also worship and have faith in something. It doesn't have to be supernatural. I'm not defending the Bible or any religion. I give people the liberty of believing what they wish as long as it doesn't become harmful. Religious people have caused great harm throughout the ages and so have many people of science.

  161. misterwong

    So dig this.The Nazis formed the Protestant Reich Church,effectively an arm of the Nazi Party(like the Evangelical Movement was for the Bush Administration)who claimed Jesus was not a jew,Jews being solely responsible for Jesus' death.Hitler persecuted Polish Christians and primarily Catholics for rejecting Party beliefs.Jehovas Witnesses were targeted for death camps .Many thousands of Christians died right next to Jews

  162. misterwong

    No can do.I have dentist then company Christmas Party later.I can do Tuesday.

  163. His Forever


  164. David Foster

    Where do you get this $hit from?

    Jesus was anti-EVERYTHING which involved the mist-treatment of his fellow human beings, and of nature; which is the very thing that got him killed.

    In EVERY case, caste systems are a function of the powerful enslaving the powerless; regardless of whether or not religion is used to justify it.

    And slavery took (is STILL taking) so long to die because certain selfish individuals like getting their money for nothing, and their chicks for free!

    YES, religion is often a tool to accomplish all of these things. But, if you have ever studied the ancient writings of ANY culture, you will find that they are mostly about the common folk fighting against POWER. And that is no different than what we seem to be doing here.

  165. 0zyxcba1


  166. 0zyxcba1

    @ David Foster

    There is an acceptable unlikelihood that a man named Jesus, fitting descriptions by Jesus story-tellers, ever even exited, at all.

    The whole notion of 'Original Sin' is laughably absurd. But, without it, the whole Jesus story would, how should one say, relinquish 'panache', would it not?

    The story book I read as a child had Jesus acquiescing to the importuning of demons to be cast out of a man possessed of them into a farmer's livestock of innocent pigs which then(presumably as a direct result of Jesus' action) all ran to their death off a cliff and into a lake where they all drown.

    Why Jesus would do what demon want at the expense of blameless animals always puzzled and upset me as a child. Even at my tender age, I saw clearly that Jesus hated pigs and was he himself into cruelty to animals.

    Having been raised on a farm, I had many pet animals, amongst which was a pet pig named Dora, upon whom I lavished affection. I remember vividly being scolded by my Mother upon begging her to let me sleep with Dora in order to protect her from Jesus.

    Given these facts within the Jesus story, and in view of your declaration that "Jesus was anti-EVERYTHING which involved the mist-treatment...of nature;..." I implore you in, memory of Dora, to modify your stance on this issue. Thank you.

    I addition, upon a closer and more careful reading by you of the history of the Middle east and of Europe in the Dark Ages, I am wholly confident you will gladly revise you contention to more closely mirror reality that religion served primarily only as a pawn in the machinations of gross injustices, torture war and wholesale extermination of peoples indigenous to the New World, most particularly that of the Aztecs. I need not go into the live burials and burnings alive and drownings and mutilizations at the hand of Christ's Church on Earth.

    You're a swell guy, I can just tell.

  167. David Foster

    @Oz: Christ and Christ's Church are not the same thing.

    I have absolutely no doubt that in another 1000 years, there will be people killing each other in the name of Martin Luther King; proclaiming that he performed miracles, walked on water, and spoke to the dead. And I am sure that there will be just as many denying that he ever existed.

    Sorry to hear about your pig.

  168. Guest

    The only way for GOD to exist and to not exist at the same time is to describe a new GOD based on our new Scientific knowledge and our new understanding of Spirituality.
    Does GOD say i am this or that or not this or not that? No, we stupid humans do, as if we know yet.

  169. 0zyxcba1

    @ David Foster

    It is one thing to judge the distant past, quite another to predict the distant future, pertaining to a single individual, in scrupulous detail, with "absolutely no doubt"; such conditions are most often diagnosed(see: DSM-IV) as 'Refractory Delusion Psychosis'.

    As regards Dora:
    a) you are lying;
    b) Dora is not the one who suffered.

    I cannot 'pray' for you, David, and anyway, in your case, such would be an exercise in futility. The best that I can sincerely offer is pity.

  170. David Foster

    Sounds to me like you are still suffering.

    And you're right; I couldn't give a $hit less about your pig, I was just being polite.

    Feel better now?

  171. Gary V

    It is just full of outdated myths.

  172. Gary V

    Firstly America is not a Christian nation it is a SECULAR NATION, secondly the foreign policies are made by people who are making billions of $'s for the corporations in which they are shareholders, nothing to do with "The Revelation of Jesus Christ". You maybe correct on the last point but that is the only part that you are right about & America is not the only country with that capability. Have you got any other fantasies that you would like to share with us ?

  173. Sebastian Proudfoot

    mostly no.......with some no on top

  174. David Foster

    Pay attention to their deeds, not their words.

  175. Beerwulf

    Science wins everything. I wish I was born sometime in the future when religion is finally put to rest.

  176. 0zyxcba1

    @ David Foster

    You were not just being polite.

    You don't know how.

  177. 0zyxcba1

    and double NO.

  178. His Forever

    Exceedingly yes.

  179. His Forever

    It's the gateway to life itself.

  180. David Foster

    I don't normally try. But then, apparently, neither do you.

  181. David Foster

    We waste our time trying to prove the existence of the spiritual. But occasionally I have a few minutes to spare. :-)

  182. Gary V

    When you have a few minutes to spare please feel free to try & prove the existence of the spiritual. If you come up with any evidence please share it with us all. I look forward to seeing anything that even resembles any real evidence.

  183. Gary V

    Only a few more generations I think, science & rational thinking is starting to win over. It has taken a long time but I think that the world is now waking up.

  184. Gary V

    @David Foster
    I think that he got that "$hit" from the Bible, the same place that you get all yours from. lol

  185. David Foster

    Not entirely... I also take a little from the Koran; the Sutra; the Tao; the legends of Native Americans; Mark Twain; George Orwell; Aldous Huxley; The American Journal of Science; The Encyclopedia Britannica; Websters New-World Dictionary; The Yellow Pages...

    It's all good! :)

  186. David Foster

    FWIW, The Yellow Pages is probably the only book in that list which contains any truly user-verifiable facts. lol

  187. David Foster

    @Gary: Why should I bother? You will see the spirit realm soon enough. There is nothing that *I* could produce that would show it to you. Only death can do that.

    How many have come back from, say, a heart attack, or a car accident, and said: "Hey, you're not going to believe this..."; only to find out they were right... You Don't! But I don't know, really, what better kind of proof you could ask for; except maybe to have it happen to you..

  188. David Foster

    @Gary: What happens to you when you finally deconstruct the biological function; uncover the seat of consciousness; and finally define all life as nothing but a machine running a software program? Do you transfer your consciousness into a computer, and set out to become the star child? That's a lovely dream!

    But what if you were to discover that the seat of consciousness is actually a product of the quantum processes that forms the very matter you are made of? That consciousness can not be transferred.

    And what's more; that because this matter returns to the earth and is not destroyed, but like the spring leaves does, in some form, return again; what then? This would place a whole new importance on the here-and-now, for knowing that you don't get to escape whatever legacy you create in this life, for such a simple matter as dying!

    Just a fairy tale, I know. But no less a fairy tale than that of the Star Child... One I hear so very often from these so-called: "rational thinkers".

  189. Gary V

    Nice reply.

  190. Eric Donald

    Bible > Any other ancient scribe.


    Because it can criticize and revise itself to today's context.

    Humans do that subjectively, not the absolute truth.

    Science wins

  191. nowaynoway

    Jesus was love thy neighbor; what you are saying is false.

  192. 0zyxcba1

    @ Sieben Stern

    And even if morality did come from the bible(lol), the bible in turn comes from the human race!

  193. David Foster

    @Gary: Not touching that one? OK, lemme go smoke one, I'll get back to ya... :)

  194. 0zyxcba1

    @ Psinet

    How much are you charging!

  195. Mel Legarde

    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God

  196. kman67

    Why is it NECESSARY that we 'save' our species? If there is no God and
    we merely perish and be no more --- how can you justify your objectivity? Is there some goal?

    Awakening? Science? Science in actually linear knowledge, it merely touches upon what can be easily known --- via the 5 senses, which is inferior to reasoning, and reasoning inferior to intellect.

    If we do not solve our problems socially it won't matter what we do...

  197. Zach Fraser

    if god exist then i want a word with him , he can hardly blame me for not beliveing when all his aparent truths come out of the mouths of people whom onley spread fear, religion is based on fear and blood, knowing what we know and all thats been proven why cant we start to evolve our minds .

  198. metalmaji

    I did my homework. Churches say Jesus is God.. .But there is NOT a single unequivocal statement in the complete Bible, where Jesus himself says... 'I am God' - or where he says... 'Worship me'???... Churches say God is ONE.. God, Jesus and Holy Spirit. These are three different forms. So, 1+1+1=3.. Eg, water, oil and soil cannot be one... Churches say God SENT Jesus to be killed... 1-A God cannot die...2- If God sent Jesus, that means there are TWO.. (earlier they said its ONE).... Churches say Jesus in sitting right next to God.. (this again shows there are two).... When we asks Churches about this, they say "don't ask questions, just believe it"

    Praying to Jesus is putting a human in front of God.That is contradictory to the very first commandment FROM God HIMSELF. God has no limitations that includes death. Jesus had limitations. We are all born in the image and likeness of God. But that does NOT make us God.

    The vase example is flawed. If God himself resided in human form as Jesus, HE would have no fear of what was to come. That fear is human and God in flesh would still transcend human attributes.God is all knowing. So why did Jesus have fear and no knowledge of being "god" while he was here? That infers that he wasn't all knowing.

    If Jesus is part of a holy trinity he would be all knowing in human form so to say he prayed to God the father or had fear or didn't know he was God is not god-like. He would not say pray to me to get to God. He would say follow how I lived to get to God.

    The word Christianity or trinity doesn't exist in the full Bible. Jesus never heard the word Christianity.

  199. metalmaji

    If Jesus was God, how could He pray to God?

    If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.

    If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God? This tells us that we and Jesus have a common GOD.

    If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?

    If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?

    If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?

    If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 19:16 Jesus said "Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD"?
    If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:36-38 Jesus said that GOD had assigned him (Jesus) work and GOD is a witness on Jesus?

    If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?

    If Jesus was GOD, then why did he pray to his GOD in Luke 5:16?

  200. JoeyMack

    Sir, I think you are thoroughly confused about the fundamentals of Christianity.

  201. JoeyMack

    If the Bible is not relevant, why do we continue to debate whether the Bible is relevant? Isn't that sort of paradoxical?

  202. Pilyo

    Disagreeing with an argument but not caring to elaborate yours just made your post unimportant.

  203. Pilyo

    I say amen to that!

  204. ScepticSeeker

    It seems this documentary has an abundance of people who share a similar world view i.e. liberal. And maybe one moderate. Wouldn't it be a much more interesting debate if they had people of opposing views. This documentary is really just a platform for liberals to appear to have a consensus supporting their liberal views of the world.

  205. Richard Kirkham

    I am slightly annoyed that Dr Dawkins, as an evolutionary biologist, did not argue that the decency of mankind is a social characteristic that is decended from the ancestor examples that humans have evolved from. Monkeys, chimps and arangngatangs, indeed all ape varieties,(including humans) can be synonymously linked to the fact that we are evolutionary 'cousins' and all social animals. Our moralistic and social outcomes can be observed within the social dynamics of these creatures. Our more sophisticated level of understanding and the ability to of course morally debate, is a result of the increase in the size of our brains over many millions of years. And so the decency that Richard refers to is NOT a result of biblical teaching. It is, in fact, nature that has developed these skills within us.
    Moreover the use of language in the bible, and indeed other religious texts can be respectively linked to other superstitious approaches, such as astrology. An individual draws meaning from text in the context in which they find themselves, and although the bible is a fantastic piece of literature, as this it remains... a piece of literature. And so, the only relevance that it has, is the relevance in which we ourselves choose to interpret from it.

  206. JoeyMack

    So what superstitious approach are you saying the Bible's language is akin to?

  207. TheSatyaYuga

    Excellent debate. My personal views are heavily influenced by these words 'Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble.' - Joseph Campbell

  208. joe31

    if you follow the dictates of can sucessfully lead by strenght and fear,but the highest form of leadership is by love thats the difference not contradition ,but raising to a higher level for,are ther not seven layers of heaven,just like the father whos ahead of his household,you held naturally by love and respect but you fear him if you break any many times your heard just wait till your father gets home,ant house hold just held by fear alone is a empty shell,and once that athority weakends,they experience abandoment disloyalty by there subjects just like dictators,theres nothing inside to keep them to say the ancient were ignoranr is ignorant on his part,the greeks and there archutechture that ,the perimeds wew still not sure how the built them...with much less then what we have as tool,the fact that sailors use the stars to navigate..we dependant on everything external...if we had a total black out most peole would not know how to navigate themselves aroubd,just like the blind when your weak with one think your stronger with something elsemthe acients did not fly or drive but they could track very well in in touch withere enviroment and flowed with nature we are loosing that,we gain alot of material things but loosing so much of other,we cant even keep are families and extended family together,and yet do we have any less wars then the ancient after all the development we enjoy ,i think not,so who is ignorant,if we all have one god then were related and we learn tolerance if we have many gods then to each its own,and they will rival each other.

  209. joe31

    correct jesus worship god,also when he told hid disiples to worship my god and your god,he just showed the path to god,even on the cross he said unto thee i submitt my soul,it was the romans who turn him into a god,since that was there carefull from what came from man outside the bible who guess or dilbertly mislead,no were does christ from his own words say hes god,thats man made words way after christ himself.

  210. metalmaji

    Christians say there is ONE God...but they say God (father) and Jesus (God).. Now there are two God..

  211. metalmaji

    Bible has so many scientific errors. Yet people don't question about them. WHY?

  212. 0zyxcba1

    "Is The Bible Still Relevant Today?"

    The question implies that the Bible has ever been relevant. It hasn't. It has only ever been relevant in so far as it has been in the way.

  213. You Do Not See Me

    The Churuch says that you are not to question the word of God. But then the bible goes on to say " Trust no man" if man wrote this book then how are we supposed to trust him ? LOL Confusing to say the least but they creat drones with this book and they follow at will and sometimes by force.

  214. MyReligionIs2DoGood

    I'm not sure why so many commenters believe that Nazi-Germany was a country without religion? Hitler himself was a Christian! He explained his anti-Semitism agenda with the argument - besides others - that Jews killed Jesus.

    In 1939, 6 years into the Nazi regime, a census showed that only about 1.5 % of the Germans did not believe in God, the rest was either catholic (40%) or protestant (54%) or 'neo-pagans' (3.5%).

    These numbers are somewhat different nowadays though. According to a projection from 2008 using numbers given out by the churches in Germany there were about 30% protestants and catholics each, 6% other religions, and a little above 34% agnostics/atheists.

    Quite a change, isn't it? People are waking up.

  215. Khalid Tumah

    Why do they change the rules and all sorts of things evry year in the bible. its like its not the christianity anymore. like "its okay to be gay" when the f*** did it become okay to do something god dosnt want you to do? and the excuse is "its genetic, im born gay" -.- "yeah and im born eating s***, its genetic"

  216. Guest

    No it is not, save as information about Western Civilization's roots.

  217. Angelica Guerrero

    I love Richard's respectful manner of showing just how flawed someone's views are.

  218. Angelica Guerrero

    Watch The Genius of Charles Darwin in which he discusses where our morality originated from. Most likely he chose not to discuss it here because the other commentator with the glasses touched on it & there wasn't enough time to go through the complexities of it here. Also, he kept getting unfairly interrupted.

  219. Dani S

    Watching part three, and I can't help but think that religion has nothing to do with humility. Religion is, in fact, the ultimate conceit: the idea that your specific non-logical beliefs are somehow more accurate than anyone else's. And that's obvious just a moment later when the reverend outright informs the Biblical scholar that she's wrong, point blank.

    It's interesting, too, that most of the religious folks in the audience and on the panel insist that the Bible must be constantly re-examined and reinterpreted. It proves that Dawkins is right; there is an independent moral standard that we use to evaluate our actions. Rather than taking their morality right from the Bible, the religious tend to twist the meaning of the text to fit what they, quite simply, feel is right.

    And re: part four, to deny that the writers of the Bible were ignorant by today's standards is frankly stupid. Yes, I am going to judge cultures that systematically put women down (women of that time evidently were expected to marry their rapists and, subsequently, to obey their rapist husbands without question), that partook in slave trading, that looked down on homosexuality and premarital sex and human rights in general. Relativism is a farce, perpetrated by academics who feel guilty condemning other cultures when they can study their own and note that they're not so great, either. These are the kinds of arguments defenders of the Bible or any other ancient "holy" text have to revert to in the end, and they do not impress me.

  220. jonathan jackward

    google this unified field of consciousness

  221. Abjective

    Some quite interesting points in this doc. The Holy Bible is riduled with contradictions. Revised versions and new edited versions only confuse the God fearing Christians. Obviously all the points mentioned in this doc are not true but the Holy Bible has lost its authenticity. As a muslim i believe in all the Holy Books including the Torah, Psalms, Bible and the Quran, but to revise and update these Holy scipture by mans own accord sends the masses in the wrong direction and to fit the Bible around social, political and economic reasons is wrong rather people should fit around what the Bible has orginally set out. It is essentially a divine scripture, man should not be altering, updating and revising such sacred scriptures unless its gods divine will. At least the Muslims believe in all the prophets in the Bible but in the Quranic version which is very authentic. Not even a dot has been altered in the 1400 or so years since the divine revelations. Mohammad (pbuh) is the final Messenger of God. Even though we believe Isa (Jesus pbuh) will return at the end of times. Since the Jews and Chistians and Muslims actually believe in the one true God then effectiveley we are all praying to the same God.

    Did you know that Judaism and Christianity are made up words. Do your research in the origanal scriptures of the Taurat and Bible, you will find that not once throughout the Taurat and Bible is there a word mentioned about Judaism or Christianity. So who put them in the revised and updated versions and why? Christ is a greek word which is Christos (anointed one)
    Nor does it metion anywhere in the Bible the Isa (Jesus pbuh) says he is the son of god or God himself. So these new holy books loses it credibility.
    Pious Christians really do need to do their research properly, and maybe if you do the research very well with an unbiased and open mind. You may find the truth actually lies in the Quran. And many Christians have. Inshallah.

    So you will find that you have been decieved bu your ancesters. Ever thought why your religious authority is held in Rome and not on the Holy land (Jerusulem) were Isa (Jesus pbuh) was actually born. Ever thought about why alcohol is the biggest killer known to man. And you think Isa (jesus pbuh) would allow this as an attribute to the religion. Think long and hard is the advice.

  222. Apostle Jack

    Tell the truth and shame the Devil.It is written in Isa 64 v 6
    We all are as an unclean thing,and all our righteousness is as filthy rags.

  223. Apostle Jack

    How can you say that Hitler was a Christian? Are your Christian merit so low.

  224. Apostle Jack

    I guest your way is better.

  225. Apostle Jack

    Only the blind that try to lead the blind is ignorant of what is before them.All religions are not true.They just want to have their cake and eat it too.But God don't except.

  226. David Foster

    Well, that also means that all newspaper, radio, TV, and internet news is also irrelevant; as "journalist" is simply the modern word for "scribe".

    In truth, you wouldn't have much trouble convincing me of that, either.

  227. David Foster

    Same reason people don't question 9/11.

  228. David Foster

    It is usually the PREACHER who says that the Bible is the word of God. However, in the actual book itself, you will find very few instances of God actually speaking to anyone. That's one way of telling who believes what. The Bible -such as it is- offers MANY different belief options.

    Interesting that the book was so easily taken up by Rome, whose international policy was to "Divide and Conquer". It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that they actually wrote the new testament.

  229. David Foster

    "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."

    -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

  230. David Foster

    The Bible is (ARGUABLY) commentary on political events of the time. It should not be taken as anything else.

  231. David Foster

    I hold the Bible valid in one respect, and one respect only... It seems to be accomplishing exactly what it set out to do... to set every man against the other.

  232. Abel Lizandro

    Even though God doesn't need anyone to defend Him for He is God, I admire the way the Indian Rev. stated all his arguments in defense of the Bible with such excellence and conviction. THE BIBLE IS , HAS BEEN , AND WILL BE RELEVANT TILL JESUS COMES BACK. I'm sure that most of the criteria expressed here hasn't been filtered by conciencious study of the Historical Jesus, and the proved fullfilment of Bible prophesy. And let me tell you that the gretest men who have ever lived have come to the conclusion that the Bible contains all that men lack of for their fulfillment and peace. Slavation comes from Jesus Christ alone. God bless you all.
    Jhon 3:16

  233. Robert Iacob

    @ Lizandro

    Get a grip and snap out of it. there's no salvation. we live in a era in which we should forget about ancient gods...

  234. js10jj

    No Christians that know and understand the Bible will ever say that it's okay to be gay! EVER!!

  235. js10jj

    So what do you believe in then buddy?!

  236. js10jj

    oh I forgot type in always be ready in your google seach engine!

  237. AUWR

    I don't think God (if he's really up there) takes an interest in where one sticks his penis. And by the way, Jesus Christ never got married and hung out with 12 dudes. Just saying...

  238. AUWR

    You don't need Charlie Campbell to see that the Bible is nothing more than a tale that contains more hate, violence and hypocrisy than morality and truth; all you need is to actually read it.

  239. Zach Fraser

    the bible is in part violent an hate filled, however there is reason behinde it seeing as these were all things which people in the days of the bible delt with on an almost daily basis weather you belive or not if you are open enuff you can learn from it and take away something from ,it im no church man soz i cant spell the proper term but these are lessons that we can still learn from to better ourselfs look at the state of humankind its a joke people are pathetic and weak id rather learn from scripture than from mistakes we make over and over again becuse real or not jesus has more likely HELPED more people than any of you people ever will.

  240. Zach Fraser

    belive in god not people

  241. gsjikwblao

    Religion is based not on the Bible, it is based on misinterpretations of the Bible. All current interpretations except the one that recently emerged retain contradiction. This is why The Bible itself tells us to "take heed what we hear" and that "everything hid would be revealed" because it would be necessary for a change to an increased sensitivity conscience before the new interpretation, which eliminates all the contradiction and justified cruelty retained in conventional interpretations. The Bible tells us love generated intellectual reasoning to form a necessary diametrically opposed motivation which love subdues in a natural evolutionary process. This discovery is documented in the book "The Third Measure of Meal" and it reveals the Bible to be a document that details the evolution of the human race. The necessity of increased sensitivity conscience to discover a rock-solid under-lying structure designed to facilitate the emergence of the new interpretation is supported by established fact in the field of human psychology.

  242. gsjikwblao

    I just read the article by Mr. Campbell and I was not even aware of the particular examples of contradiction that he used in the article. If a person tries hard enough,they can iron out any wrinkle TO THEIR OWN SATISFACTION. I do not consider his explanations in the article to be grossly unreasonable but the "contradictions" he explained are light-weight compared to the following :

    The Bible describes two different deaths for Judas Iscariot. One description is in one of the gospel books and the other is in the book of Acts.

    The gospels give two different reasons for Peter's motivation to make "three tabernacles" in passages describing the transfiguration

    Jesus said: and no man acendeth into heaven but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man which is in heaven. Yet the Bible in one or two Kings describes Elijah ascending into heaven in a fiery chariot. Also the two witnesses in Revelation also ascended into heaven.

    Also, Jesus said: my body is my flesh which I give for the life of the world. and a few verse later he says: it is the spirit that gives life, the flesh profits nothing. If the flesh profits nothing, how can Jesus give it for the life of the world?

    Using Mr. Campbells methods to reconcile these contradictions will be far more difficult then the examples that he used in his article. Especially the two different deaths of Judas Iscariot.

    The contradictions in the Bible only exist in misinterpretations that hold the Bible to be a factual account of physical events that occurred long ago. The apparent contradictions are the very way that the Bible forces us off surface interpretations. We are supposed to put a new tire on the rim; stop patching the old one!

    All contradictions in the Bible can be eliminated with the consistent application of a figurative meaning for about a dozen words, the first several of which are given in the Bible itself. These lead directly to the others and they are always used consistently. We did not seek this in the past because we found conventional interpretations very convenient to our nature prior to the change to an increased conviction of conscience. Because we like the old tire we keep patching it.

    All of this is in fulfillment of the warning in the Bible that we should be careful what we are hearing and that everything hid would be revealed.

    It is revealed in the book "The Third Measure of Meal"

  243. gsjikwblao

    The trouble in our world is born of our nature. We just use the Bible as an excuse. The justification we find in the Bible is supported by misinterpretations. These also are born of our nature. When our nature changes, so also will our world. This change will also produce the true interpretation that has been hid from our capacities until the present time.
    Based on your comment, and the comments of others, the book "The Third Measure of Meal" which documents the new interpretation, will make a great deal of sense. It has nothing to do with "hocus-pocus", the waving of a magic wand, or mind-reading deities with over sized egos. The interpretation eliminates all the contradiction that is retained in previous interpretations. This should be expected by all who are familiar with the Bible because the Bible itself warns us to be careful what we think the Bible is saying and that everything hid would be revealed. 'The Third Measure of Meal" is in fulfillment of these statements.

  244. Ishmael Beckford-Tongs

    Feel compelled to comment on the audience. After every single comment which has some remote element of truth they burst into applause. Its completely inane and ruins the natural flow of the debate.Anyone else wish there were no audience at all?

    Theres a massive problem with saying that Christ is the ultimate authority in christianity as a means of rebutting the argument that the Bible is corrupt and supports corruption. If you can twist the bible to support any immoral standpoint how much more can you manipulate the image of Christ? Its a regressive step - the bible acts as a buffer in many senses. Once you remove it you have an open forum

  245. BMB52

    I wished they would have spent more time talking about why the Bible gets a privileged status over other books. At first glance, this may not seem like a big deal. However, having spent the first 25 years of my life in a Christian Fundamental community where the Bible was considered inerrant, I can tell you that I and others suffered greatly. Christians within my community used passages to perform corporal punishment on infants and teenagers alike. With privilege comes responsibility. Christians all to often brush away the horrible acts their communities have done and continue to do today. There are plenty of organizations today, non-Christian charities, who do amazing things for people in need. I'd like to see the Christian community stop pointing at Islamic extremist and start cleaning up their own acts of shaming, inflicting pain on others, and degradation of women. You have much work to do!

  246. abecca

    Really liked this. I think it was less biased than some debates out there, example, by the people they choose to have on the panel, like just having 2 guys so that you are only getting 2 opinions out of such far reaching topics. I am a very new christian, used to be into all that new age junk. The reason I am a christian is because I asked Jesus to change my heart, and it is happening. I really can't even believe that I am writing about this, mostly because I am in a world where I expect to be ridiculed terribly and rejected for beliving in Jesus. But the TRUTH is that I believe with everything in me because I am changed, and no it's is not a deluded fantasy, I am a normal, productive member of society, and continue to be rational, and thoughtful in my life. Infact my whole point is that I am now soooo much more rational and thoughtful, and the facts you have to face by giving yourself to god are not delusional fantasy, rosy colored vision, they are terrifying. Owning up to every lie you have told, to every person you have wronged, and on and on.
    All and all, either way you go it is all belief, and therefore, to some extent can't get away from being based on faith. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence.

  247. abecca

    Ultimately it is a belief on either side- wether or not god exists. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. The whole subject therefore cannot get away from being based on faith. And is the bible still relevant today? It is for me, and I don't understand why that offends or alarms anyone, or how it would matter to anyone. I think having the conversation is important, so that we decide what it is we believe. We should know exactly what we do believe and why we think it so. The panel was maybe 10 people and with quite varied points of view. In alot of debates there are only two people, or four, and it really limits the cionversation. On the other hand the program really cherry-picked (haha) the items on the table for discussion. I am a very new christian and so I don't know the bible as well as I should, but the reason I am a christian is because I asked Jesus with my whole being to change my heart, and it is happening. And I have looked for peace and love and clarity and purpose in my life in so many different places, but it has never been anything like this, and I have the feeling that I knew him all along, now I just know what to call him, and what is his plan. I was not that long ago one of the people who would laugh and call someone like me nuts, so I know what is coming my way, but if you try to forget what everyone has told you and just read the bible, I think you will find a christianity that you can identify with that you totally didn't expect. We the human race cannot take a step back to see the whole picture when we are part and parcel of it, so don't write it off, the bible I mean. Anotherway put, don't knock it till ya try it!

  248. Epicurus

    actually they use an algorithm that they created to intentionally give them those answers. nothing special or new about this hoax.

  249. ShesTheBeth

    I don't believe for a second that anyone with the intellectual capacity of an adult actually, TRULY believes in gods - any more than anyone holds the belief that a bunny will, of its own volition, deliver pretty coloured eggs on a spring day. As for me, I simply dismiss what self-proclaimed believers say and move on to discuss reality. Further discussion of a person's superstitious beliefs is not worth my consideration or my time. I've better things to do, such as study facts and learn how the universe truly functions. Contradictory to what was said in this discussion forum, man and science CAN and, given enough time, WILL answer the questions of origin. No gods required.

  250. Epicurus

    step two and three are subjective.

    what is the bible code message that you are looking for and how are you looking for it? what is the method you are using?

  251. 4greginla

    I don't know - I think that Rev Ali was the most reasonable. Everyone else on the dais and the experts'' in the audience were tripping over themselves to seem reasonable and conciliatory - all the while rejecting the content inthe Bible itself.

  252. Evelina Williams

    The difference between the bible and a newspaper is that the bible is a pure fictional book talking about "Gods", "Saints" and fairies which in my opinion never existed, whilst a newspaper, the TV, or the radio usually presents logical, trustful events that actually had happened.

    The bible contains some of the most irrational, ignorant, meaningless, dangerous and stupid "fairy tales" known to man kind.

    Seemingly religious people like to by in a hypnotic state and many of them will never wake up. Luckily for the rest of us and for the society: Religion is in a great decline, people ARE finally waking up!

  253. Evelina Williams

    In some countries, not sure about the U.S. or other places, but in a small country in Europe (the Balkans) there are roughly 2 - 3 churches built daily. We have over 25,000 churches and the number is continuously growing. Slowly, the religion is declining and people are waking up, but it might take hundreds if not thousands of years to cure the world off of religion.

  254. Evelina Williams

    And another question is - How many religious people actually read the Bible anyways?

    1% because they cannot stand reading such non-sense while awake.


  255. robertallen1

    Somehow a few of your posts did not get on this thread. I'm curious about two things: Are you from the Balkans? In one of your posts you claim an increase in the number of churches in the Balkans, but yet contend that the population is growing more disenchanted with religion. Could you please explain this contradiction?

  256. Giacomo della Svezia

    Uncertainty is bliss. ; )

  257. ShesTheBeth

    I think this is the difference between those who hold to their supernatural beliefs and those who look for quantifiable evidence of how the universe works. Uncertainty is neither bliss nor misery. It's simply "not knowing". So... investigate. Personally, I would rather be miserable, but know reality than be blissful in ignorance, no matter how ugly reality is. Actually, discovery is bliss.

  258. Giacomo della Svezia

    I can agree with that. Many things that have been discovered turned out to be wrong, nevertheless our knowledge continues to grow, from facts and from our mistakes.

    Another thought: To be uncertain or not knowing is a more honest form of humility than the fear induced humility of many christians.

  259. Evelina Williams

    Yes I am from the Balkans and the numbers are quite accurate. There are about 2 to 3 churches on average being constructed daily in Romania to be more exact. It's not a contradiction, actually it's a mystery how and why all the churches pop-up whereas people in the urban areas are growing more and more disenchanted with religion.

    The thing is that most of these churches are being built in the rural areas and very small towns in Romania which sort of explains things. People in the rural areas are highly indoctrinated, they haven't got much education and they're mostly elderly.

    Churches here are built from private money so I guess it's still a sort of a "business" that has a market even thought the religious population is in a continuous decline, in fact the numbers and statistics show that it's in decline all over the world and not just here. I hope I made light on what I've said, it is not a contradiction by any means.

    At some point the construction of churches will stop, simply because there is no need for so many. Moreover it's pathetic how the number of churches is still increasing, whereas the hospitals are being closed down, schools are being closed down, universities and you'll barely find a stay-over-night house for the homeless in Romania.

  260. Evelina Williams

    Is it just me getting nervous when reading non-factual threads/discussions on Religion? People just need a wake-up call, religion has deepened roots all over the world and it has 3 purposes - manipulation, money and power.

    Does anybody know facts about what is going behind the scenes? Every damn priest in a country like Romania is rich, they charge hundreds and thousands of dollars for a marriage, they make huge money with donations and so on. Not to mention religion is power, they do activate in many business sectors. Nothing changed, it's all about the greed, power and money which to me is psychopathy.

  261. oQ

    In my town, quite a few (small) churches have been sold to be transformed into homes (with great high ceilings), one houses a dental office.

  262. Evelina Williams

    Much better purpose ain't it. I mean a lot of the churches should be converted into homes and serve the the thousands of homeless children and adults. But everybody closes their eyes, I mean that is the purpose of religion to keep you indoctrinated.

    If you just pick up a prayer book or the Bible you'll see that it does nothing but to make you feel "disoriented" and "guilty", there's no purpose whatsoever - it's a complete non-sense.

    Several hundreds or thousands of cases have been on TV about mentally ill individuals that have left their treatments behind looking for a cure in the church. Guess what? A lot of them have committed suicide.

    I could go on and on but I think everyone should have the faith and will power to try and understand that religion will not cure, heal or help anyone in any given way, it's just a doctrine, and we all know what doctrines are.

  263. oQ

    Last night i went to see the Vagina Monologues put up by the women's center of my town. The event was at the Church Hall in a church that has been transformed into a multi use building.
    At one point, It was quite fun to be part of a group of women and a few men yelling at the top of our lungs cunt cunt cunt cunt, knowing that at one time sex talk was a very forbidden subject in such place.
    I love Nelson!
    Check out One Billion Rising, it's catching every where.

  264. kicknbak60

    It's an interesting question is the bible still relevant? Relevant to who,relevant to what ? If your a believer then i would think that it would be relevant, but as a non-believer i can't of course speak for the otherside . As a non-believer my knee jerk reaction would be to say it certainly isn't relevant to me. But let's further the question relevant to what ? Is it relevant to society ? I live deep in the heart of the american bible belt and it certainly has an impact on the community i live in, you can state your not religious and it will kind of float but state that your an atheist and it seems the gloves come off. When you see in the news reports of abortion clinics bombed or the doctors killed by fundamentalist, when you see the news of the right wing fundies and lobbyist's try to impose their view on issues like gay marriage or pro-choice etc. then what is the relevance to that. I have to withdraw my knee jerk no. personally i see it as a negative relevance where as a believer may see it as a positive relevance, but it is no doubt relevant!

  265. johnBas5

    Here is a short answer: no, mostly irrelevant to most people.

  266. Dominique

    The women is so s*upid, there is no archeologic proof so didn't happened. There are more ways to proof things did happen!

  267. Eric Lawson

    The bible is irrelevant as much as that former Hindu Bishop is !!! Good job Richard !!

  268. Pee Jay

    There is no other book in the world, or ever written with such accuracy to future events. Then to top if off with more proof you have the discovery of the dead sea scrolls. I will not deny the corruption and abuse that MAN has done thru out history, in Gods name. However it does not include all believers. The Roman Catholic church has been corrupt for a couple thousand years, the enemy is real.

  269. dee

    anything can be relevant to today simple how to apply It just cause you don't understand it does not make it not real or relevant for this matter.

  270. david

    Bible: Fiction or Non Fiction. Every speaker here admitted that the Bible is full of stories, poetry and have little if any regard to rec-cording actual history. No rational person could/should ever consider the Bible as Non Fiction. Yet it is described by too many as the word of God whether dictated or inspired and used as proof to justify outrageous claims. The Bible was written by the hand of Man. It was written by many different men over centuries. Each had their own reasons to write what they did, now centuries later is interpreted as required for the agenda of the person using the quotation. There may be a divine creator who started everything in motion, if I could wrap my head around who created the creator and by ext....... But the Bible has nothing to do with what may be, it was/is a creation of Men to support a religion that is used to control, manipulate and exploit others. It was a very effective tool for use with other mind control practices like ritualistic practices taught to children before an age of reason. The threat of torture both real during one's life or the unending eternal damnation that was coming after death. Or if you truly have blind faith, do what the Church or those who speak for the Church tell you to do, are willing to hate, fight and die in Gods name/Gods will then after you die you will have eternal paradise in an invisible far away place where the invisible deity hangs out. This still happens today where the 1% manipulate and control the 99% but here in the USA and most western cultures the 99% are now literate, having some form of education and are not threaten by actual torture only the make believe eternal salvation/damnation threat not verifiable by fact check. Modern mans only excuse is we allow parents to start and maintain the religious indoctrination of children from before they are capable of speech {genital mutilation/Baptism} under a "freedom of Religion" law that most perceive as a basic right. Let us change the interpretation to freedom from religion and protect all children until they are capable of making intelligent decisions for themselves like driving, drinking or voting. Then if they chose to believe in the invisible at least they were given a chance. Bar, strip club or Church should all be age restricted. Dry counties should have no more churchs than roadside moonshine booths.

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