The Most Secret Place On Earth
The Most Secret Place on Earth is a 2008 film by German director Marc Eberle, dealing with the secret operation waged by the CIA throughout the sixties and early seventies against communist guerrillas in Laos, particularly in the city of Long Chen.
Marc Eberle talks to the protagonists of Laos civil war - on both sides. The film features interviews with State Department, CIA and Air America officials, as well as Hmong general Vang Pao and some of his critics - Fred Branfman and Professor Alfred McCoy.
Despite being the center of the covert operation and, at its peak, one of the world’s busiest airports with a population of 50,000 people, Long Chen’s location was never marked on any map.
Long Chen remains off limits to foreigners and most Lao due to clashes with remnants of the CIA’s Hmong army. Until recently it formed part of a special administrative zone under the direct control of the Lao army.
I've no idea how old the comments on this doco are, but being a gabby old Koala I can't help chucking in my two bobs' worth. In case it's not obvious, I'm from Oz, as some of you seem to regard this information as important.
In 1975, my parents visited by father's twin brother in Laos - my uncle was the Oz ambassador. While there, my parents visited the old royal capital in Luang Prabang. At this time, the Pathet Lao (pseudo-communists - led by a prince of the royal family and unwillingly subject to substantial North Vietnamese and Soviet influence) and the royalist and non-royalist right and centre were in dual government, having recently signed a treaty. Of course, the Pathet Lao later overthrew the others to take full control.
Despite being warned of the danger by a friend, my parents decided to take a bus journey from Luang Prabang back to the political capital, Vientiane. On the way, gunmen stopped the bus and carried out a robbery. I've been told various stories by odd Americans in various parts of Asia, but have no reason to believe any of them.
The bus was a new one, set up like a truck, with the driver's cabin separate from the passenger area. Like a truck, there was a bench seat in the driver's cabin, and the driver invited my parents to sit up next to him, as they would get a much better view on the scenic road trip. When the gunmen stopped the bus, they used the brutal technique of hiding a heavy machine gun on a corner and firing straight into the driver's cabin. My parents were killed, along with the driver. The gunmen undertook their robbery of the passengers and left.
When the US embassy staff arrived at the scene to investigate, the evidence of the passengers made it pretty clear the gunmen were Hmong mercenaries, currently working for the non-Pathet Lao forces. One story I've heard from an Australian source is that a rival bus owner paid the Hmong to put the new bus out of action.
Whatever, the Hmong were desperate to support their families as their employers had pretty much stopped paying them. The reason they were located well away from their homes was that they were on the receiving end of an NV and PL drive pushing them out of their mountain strongholds.
This was a serious problem for the Hmong, as they had been making good money from the CIA to arm and fight against the so-called communists. The Hmong lands were in some of the worst farming areas in Laos. Constantly on, and occasionally over, the edge of starvation the Hmong were keeping their heads above water growing and selling opium, mostly into Asian markets.
In return for doing the CIA's bidding, and greatly increasing their market for and income from opium, the Hmong leaders, like the appalling drug lord who was their "general", agreed to sell their young men to the US death machine and take up the fight against the PL and NV.
Oh, yes, the increased income. That came not directly from the CIA, even it couldn't afford the money involved. The CIA made a devil's deal, and did pretty well out of it as well, as one can imagine of those slimy scumbags. The CIA built up a fleet of aircraft, under a couple of labels, the best known being Air America. Then they shipped the Hmong opium from the Lao mountains into Thai heroin factories. This heroin was, at first, shipped from Thailand into what was then South Vietnam, where it was sold to disaffected US soldiers.
The CIA mustn't have believed its luck (although, maybe they had just lost control of what was happening, having, as usual, implemented an outrageous process without considering the future consequences with any level of intelligence at all, and/or maybe a few of them felt some guilt, which might explain how the story eventually leaked out) when the soldiers, upon returning to the US, took their addictions back with them, spreading the demand for heroin into the peace movements and other sources of young people, effectively creating the drug "war" of the last 50 years. And a lovely big market for heroin, from which the CIA earned a good income, from which they were able to fund the Hmong.
The CIA, and, when they found out, other organs of government, including elements of Congress, worked hard to hide the reality. So, when the story started to surface it was hard to find supportive evidence. The last 30-40 years however have managed to see sufficient evidence to convince even a very hard-to-convince historian like me.
Anyway, to cut this story shorter than book length, when the NV and PL pushed the Hmong out of the mountains, they could no longer grow their opium, and their defeat greatly reduced their value to the CIA, and Burma was largely fulfilling the demands of the new heroin markets. The CIA chucked the Hmong to their fate, which explains why they were reduced to shooting up buses to survive.
While not part of my story here, anyone who doubts the US damage to Laos should go trecking across the Plain of Jars. It won't take long before you will find the truth. Unfortunately, your legs will probably be blown off in the process. The bombs in Laos come from two sources, both of them controlled by the US. The bombing of Hanoi, Haiphong and other parts of what was North Vietnam was heavily shot up by NV anti-aircraft artillery, and weather systems could sometimes be unpredictable, so some planes returned to the huge airbases in Thailand and Laos with partial or complete bomb loads. It was dangerous for these planes to land, so they just dropped their bombs, like so much garbage, on Laos, which they crossed on their way "home". As the armies in World War 1 learned, if you drop bombs (or in WW1's case, shells) into mud or soft earth, they don't explode, and sit there for some unfortunate farmer to hit with a bullock drawn plough. The other source, was the US airforce, again, trying to unsuccessfully stop or even slow the NV supply routes along the Ho Chi Minh trail, which NV illegally ran through Laos. This trail was really multiple trails which the US couldn't see. It's response was to drop anti-personnel weapons, designed and marketed by companies like Honeywell, all over the countryside. The greater proportion of these weapons involved a primary bomb which spread little yellow balls around the place. These balls, around the size of a baseball or cricket ball, really appeal to kids who otherwise have nothing. They pick them up, play with them, and blow themselves up. Laos is the most bombed nation on earth, more bombs were dropped on Laos than were dropped by all sides during World War 2 (especially if one counts the only nuclear weapons ever used in war, those dropped on Japan by the US). Every single one of those bombs were dropped by US controlled planes. Apart from an occasional pittance, including that recently (I'm writing in 2017) donated by Obama, Australia, which had absolutely no involvement in Laos, has spent more on cleaning up this military hardware than the US.
Anyway, after my parents were murdered by US-trained, equipped, paid, then deserted mercenaries, like some of the people commenting on this site, I hated all Americans. I never blamed the Hmong, they just did what they had to do. The CIA had choices, and it made the wrong ones, as it usually did and does.
But, unwillingly, I accompanied my partner to a conference in Boston in the early 1990s. We arranged for our subsequent holiday to be in Canada (which we loved, by the way!), but I had to spend a week in Boston on my own while my partner attended her conference. Then we had to drive up to Canada. Every single person I met in Boston and elsewhere in the US was absolutely lovely. I'm a very shy, uncommunicative person, but wonderful person after wonderful person drew me out and chatted. I was worried how I would react, because of the depth of my hatred and prejudice. But, of course, the matter never came up. I was forced to reconsider my hate.
Yes, the US society is a creation of its people, but why should I assume each individual had the knowledge and understanding, let alone the capacity, to influence the decision-making of their government, let alone a secretive organisation like the CIA. We in Australia don't, and I hate it when people blame me for the iniquities of my government, which I often haven't voted for! My hate is much more targeted these days. I will even acknowledge that if I had to choose between a world being dominated by the US, or Russia, or China, I would choose the US unquestioningly.
Not that I would be happy about choosing the US, because of the US propensity to interfere with anyone opposed to themselves. I still bear in mind the evidence produced in a spy trial in the US (the Falcon and the Snowman, as in the film based on the story) giving evidence of US/CIA interference in Australia during the period of Labor government between 1972-1975, when a barely-if-at-all constitutional coup was undertaken to sack the Prime Minister, the great but flawed Gough Whitlam.
Yes, there's much I detest about the US, and I certainly oppose the craven way Australian governments act like the US's Deputy Dawg in Asia, but while the government and US politics in general are appallingly hypocritical in almost every regard, and many of its people allow themselves to be constantly misled about the nature of US involvement in the rest of the world, the US is at least based on principles I believe to be important to all humanity, and many, if not most, of its people implicitly believe in these principles.
By the way, I don't include your bizarre attachment to a perceived "right" to carry any sort of gun you want, indeed, any gun at all. Oh, and your tendency to believe implicitly in religion. But as with so much of US policy (and myself, for that matter) no-one's perfect.
I believe very strongly one of the answers to government iniquities is to educate our kids thoroughly in the importance of and techniques for questioning and analysing anything they are told (including this!). Only then, by informing themselves, staying informed, questioning and analysing can they prevent themselves endlessly dancing on some puppet master's strings. This doesn't mean rejecting everything. Oh, no. It means that when they choose to dance it's in accord with their own wishes, and not because some puppet master is jiggling their strings.
I totally reject the argument humans are innately evil. Evil is a religious construct, and religion is only a human construct to try and explain the otherwise inexplicable. Oh, and to provide an instrument for governments to exercise a degree of control over the populace.
Arguments over humans being innate anything seem to me to simply be a way of lazily refusing to take responsibility for our actions and, more importantly, the work necessary to overcome various socially inflicted impulses, like violence, war, power dominance, etc.
So, I hope the haters learn to love, for in the end only love can take us forwards. Hate keeps us locked into mindsets tens of millennia old. No, I'm not some dope-smoking hippy sitting up a tree and shitting into a bucked some acolyte empties for me. Nor am I some commie apologist. I'm simply a person who has seen, experienced and learned a lot in my 62 years, including the murder of my parents when I was 19, in 1975.
Tragic loss of your parents, but they were warned. True? There is no proof of the CIA involvement in opium trade in Laos. That is a myth. NV signed the Geneva accords but ignored them, so the US did. War is terrible, but there are at least two sides to it.
Though this documentary has some great footage and interviews I find it somewhat sensationalist & one-sided. Some examples:
The narrator notes that the US officially supported Lao royalist/neutralist armed forces while the CIA supported the Hmong forces and "the result was civil war" - as though the two were battling each other. In fact they fought together (with US air support) to counter the invading North Vietnamese (NV) and the NV-backed Pathet Lao.
Similarly, very little attention is given to the role played by NV during this time. The US and NV both signed the Geneva Convention saying foreign powers would stay out of Laos - it was once NV showed no signs of withdrawing its troops from (the north east of) Laos that the US was forced to disobey the convention and act covertly.
No mention is made of the Hmong's historical battles with NV invading forces. These two had battled long before the arrival of the CIA and in fact in much the same manner. When the French were in Laos they also supported the Hmong as a military force (around the 1950's - correct me if I'm wrong). Thus as the documentary suggests, the US were not the first to 'manipulate' the Hmong into fighting their battles.
This impact of war after war goes some way towards explaining why some Hmong children as young as 14 were soldiers - it was necessity. Gen Vang Pao himself first experienced battle at age 13 & was trained in France. I'm not saying they didn't demand child soldiers from villages in exchange for resources but providing the full story would be better.
Lastly, it was only with assent from the Lao royalist government that the US could perform bombing operations in Laos. Admittedly, the strength of the US may have ensured this assent but still, I feel like the documentary suggests the US was so arrogant they just walked in and started bombing willy-nilly.
I am not American and though this rant sounds like I'm defending their actions that is not my intention. Rather, as someone who currently lives in Lao and is interested in this subject I am reading a book on this subject. It provides much more factual detail than this documentary and so I felt compelled to point out some shortcomings. The book is called Ravens by Christopher Robbins.
Ravens by Christopher Robbins, wow! What a scholarly masterpiece you are engaging with. Obviously, the documentary cannot compete with a book endorsed by Tom Clancy. Robbins work inspired the movie Air America. As for factual shortcomings I can assure that the only person splitting hairs and suffering from factual shortcomings is your self and Robbins.
This is perhaps the greatest act of terrorism in history.
I remember putting together that the US was bombing northern Laos in 1968 from reading a single issue of The New York Times. In two articles in two separate parts of the newspaper you could read that (a) the US was offloading so many bombs and other ordnance from ships every day it had run out of warehouse space and (b) it was sending off fleet after fleet of B-52 bombers on "surveillance" or "reconnaisance missions" towards northern Cambodia and Laos. Living 8 miles from the biggest B-52 base in the world, I knew you didn't send an 8-engine bomber on that kind of mission. But by that time I had already been too smartass about my other deductions and predictions and my professor -- now head of a major insitute on international affairs here in Canada -- asked me to leave her seminar. Shame. I had a lot of other things to tell her, including some that STILL haven't come out. (Saying that LBJ would probably not run for president again, five days before LBJ himself knew that proved to be the last straw.)
I agree that our mind is our greatest responsibility, but to say if I fail at that responsibility , brings you down as well just excuses you from the responsibility of your own mind. Make up your mind "wink". @StillRV we all learn from someone. You didn't wake up one morning reading and writing on your own. So it would be fair to say that since you didn't invent the english language or the written or spoken word, you are just as much a "parrot". It's often far easier to find others faults than our own. But what good is it to know how stupid everyone else is, if they know you are just as stupid? I have a GED I got a fourteen a perfect example of how ridiculous "academic standards" are in the USA, but have learned everything else I know about the world from other people. Admittedly I don't take everything I'm told as definitive fact, it also doesn't take a genius to figure out, unless you plan on fitting the 100,000 years of discovery humans have been embarked on into the 100 years of a (long) life, you are going to have to assume that at least a few people through that 100,000 years knows wtf they are talking about.
In my time in laos, I found the people to be extremely laid back and forgiving. When meeting loatian people, I was often asked where I was from. When I responed, "USA", I was suprised by the congenial manner with which I was treated, often by someone who was missing a limb thanks to our illegal war and left-over land mines. Most Americans do not even know about this secret/illegal war. We signed a treaty in the U.N. declaring several nations off limits to war, Laos was on the list. This is yet another instance of U.S. hypocracy. If you wonder why we are hated by many, educate yourself and stop wondering!
Funny thing is, America sends other ppls children to war, kill thousands of innocent ppl, feed hatred and insanity. The remaining survivors, son of a murdered wife, father of murdered sons, etc finds a idiot faction that gives 'em the opportunity of "payback" against America, we call'em "terrorists".
When they kill 1 (one) of us it's a tragedy but when we kill thousands of 'em, it's all good.
I can't accept the crap of "nothing we can do to stop government" because the government represents every single American (you like it or not).
Just one word to describe Laos: - GENOCIDE.
These moment is extremelly important. People are questioning themselves and others. We are bombarded by information. Now more than ever vital changes are happening, we need to collaborate with peaceful thoughts. We must avoid negativity. It is hard work, but it is the beginning.
Me must learn now more than ever, not to be judgemental, and always remember that we can help even with our thoughts. What we think what we do comes to us. Is a law. Cause and effect. Our thoughts of peace, harmony , comprehension goes all over the planet and beyond. .
Dear Elbabell,my grandpa would say,"People will treat you how you ALLOW them to treat you", and this is true of our own people who wail and wring their hands and complain and hope and pray.No cause.No effect.The sun rises.People die needlessly.The sun sets.There is a time for restraint and a time for decisive action and the wise know which is called for.Nature's rules,not mine. But I will suggest a doc I feel is appropriate for your particular sensitivities.On this site ,"The Secret" under the Psychology heading.I think you will like it
wow this is terrible to send kids in the war wtf is the CIA thinking
I fear you are somewhat innocent,my friend.CIA is the most fearsome ruthless security agency on Earth.they operate often outside the parameters of morals ,human value or what we regard as common decency.To expose the practices of the Agency would apall the people and humiliate the government.But that's business
completely true - but what pains me the most, as an american, is that there is nothing I can do to stop what's going on in secret. no matter who i vote for, none of them will stop the atrocities and the lying that happened in Vietnam, and are happening in Iraq.
I can´t understand why all of you are trying to reach some points expressing your states of mind when the problem is us... Human race is a disgrace our feelings are no longer belong to us...
Gentlemen, All your base are belong to us.
To all the ppl living in the US:
Sometimes, I suffer from a very human problem that I even feel some shame about: I cannot decide who I hate more - the liars, or the people that bought the lie until it became a truth.
He who learns must suffer, and, even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God - Aeschylus (525 BC - 456 BC).
Not sure what you are driving at there @Psinet. Elaborate a little so I know which one I am.
Well, if you don't understand what is fundamentally wrong with the US, then you have either bought the lie, or you are one of the few who sold it.
Your mind is your own responsibility - indeed your only responsibility. When you fail at that responsibility, you take everyone down with you.
Know Thyself. It is not my job to tell you who you are. It is your job to define it.
Still you won't say where you are from, are you protecting your wrongs? You are a masked soldier hiding in the bush with a big gun on US. Now i don't like US politics or Canadian politics although i am Canadian, actually i don't like the politics of any country, and as David says: "given the opportunity" any country has switched from the caboose to the locomotive with guns and ammunitions.
@Az; I could have sworn I mentioned it before. Im from upstate NY, USA.
@Psinet; I was just larking on you. I am neither apologist not patriot for the US as is. I would love to see the US go back to it's roots but don't believe it will happen without civil war. Our electorate is broken, Only the uber rich lawyers can run for office and they are all crooked no matter which party. And since a new American civil war would have a death toll to surpass all others in history, I cannot support that.
@Stillrv...not sure why my comment came under yours, it was addressed at Psinet.
I'm sorry but I must reply to you. I have looked at your comments on numerous things and you simply baffle me. I am American also but I offer no weak apologies for our countries destruction of other countries, killings of millions of innocent people, etc. However, I must say this to you stillrv, I watched a doc. about circumcision last night (yeah, you're real lucky my comment didn't print to you on that doc) but you actually brought up genocide in darfur as barbaric and that circumcision was therefore not barbaric (real sound logical way of thinking btw). How can you cry genocide in darfur (when it had absolutely nothing to do with the circumcision subject btw) but do not seem at all to mind genocide we commit upon others. Only good thing any of your comments have done is made me sign up and start commenting. I'm going to watch what i watch and hope you watched it also, then hope your feeble mind comments on every doc. I watch, so I can watch a doc. then put another uninformed American (yes, I'm American too) in their place.
@kamakaze; I will only ever acknowledge you this one time.
First and foremost, to consider me lucky that your response post to me on another doc. did not post is At best moronic at worst the ramblings of an over confident internet bully dullard. Your response would not have phased me in the slightest. I don't know you nor do I particularly care to, and as a nonentity in my life you have absolutely no power to do me any harm or to trouble me in the slightest.
Now I have made I believe well over 500 comments on this site I believe and even having read all of them you would have no clue as to my nature, my character, nor my ideals. Some of all of that is spelled out clearly in some of my posts, however I doubt you could make sense of them.
As to my comments on circumcision; (and this is why I doubt your ability to decipher context and meaning) I mentioned the killings in Darfur as an exemplar of what barbaric means. Unlike the removal of a tiny scrap of skin which in no way causes undue harm to the patient in any but the most extreme cases. My pint being If people want to concert their efforts to put an end to something barbaric they may try focusing their efforts on the endless acts of violence around the globe than on someone else s penis.
As to me being apologist for the actions of the US; I am not. You see me as such because you are a media and scholastic puppet with an inability to conceive or understand independent thought. I am an isolationist. I believe the US is wrong to invade foreign lands for any reason at all short of say a new Reich threatening the entire globe. On the flip side of that coin I feel that the US should not send forth billions of dollars in aid to foreign nations for any reason what so ever, especially when we have people who starve and suffer right here at home. My comments, which you take as nationalistic defense and weak apology are neither. I simply reiterate the old saying of let those without sin cast the first stone. All nations connive and plot and war and strangle each other in one form or another. And frankly there is but one answer leave the world to it s self or join the party. Frequently we get Americans on here who feed at the trough of the college professors and media toadies, the political hacks and the pseudo intellectuals. Those people (often college educated) a simply parrots. They have been trained to spit back whatever their professor spouts to them for 16 years or more and even once freed from their cage can only pick a new master from which to collect their ideas and words. Those misguided and unoriginal fools (fools like yourself I hazard to guess) Embody everything the detractors of the US and it s people dislike, all while thinking themselves some sort of revitalizing force for change. You are arrogant, overconfident, and you attempt to marginalize and preach to those who disagree with you. You toss about idle flaccid threats to people you don't even understand to protect an idea you didn't even come up with.
In summation Kamekaze you are below my notice as is essentially anything and anyone who do not directly connect to myself, my loved ones, or my community. You are a gnat on the rump of the democratic ass, one of millions. I bid you good day and to enjoy the pile of shit it feeds you.
All further comments from you to me will be disregarded as the rantings of a stoned adolescent parrot.
"Generals sat, and the lines on the map moved from side to side." ~ Mr. Floyd
What is wrong with the U.S. is that we won the battle for top-dog. But we were ALL playing by the same rule book. Now the U.S. exercises impunity purely by the terrible size of her arsenals. I don't see that as being something that any other nation would have done differently, given the opportunity. Britain did the same before us; and Rome did the same before them; and so on; and so on, into antiquity. We are the "New and Improved" Colonialists. And there ain't a whole lot I can do about it, except to refuse to join the ranks.
"Oh, by the way... which one's Pink"?
I have concluded that you simply view Amerika as a land of oafish,monstrous,overly priviliged,mindless thugs and can't shut up about it.Invoking the ghost of Aeschylus to show how wracked with torment you are over the atrocities of the Evil Juggernaut.Well I for one find your prejudice tiresome and vapid.As Americans,we are in a quandry on how to reclaim our Nation and be a symbol of equality and benevolent might.We're up against some powerful opponents-corrupt government,insatiable souless banks and corporations,ignorance,apathy,and yes,our own deluded Hubris.
That's a pretty dark picture and an enormous challenge.
But we are Americans,Goddammit,and we will fight as a people to take back our country from those who have corrupted and shamed it and restore our honor.Wish us luck
best of luck! let's hope this will happen!
Dear misterwong, we must strive to keep our hearts open to the realization that we humans beings in any part of the globe are striving por Peaced
Aren't those who have "corrupted & shamed it" Americans too?
Precisely so.However,when huge amounts of money and power are at stake,their
nationalities and loyalties dissolve.They now serve a new Master.Not the
People.Not their Faith.Yes I feel BETRAYED by the weakness of my own leaders
who have sold their souls and their own people to those who feed on them.We
know who they are.They smugly dare us to stand up and fight..That time has
Right and Wrong are weapons as deadly as bombs and bullets, right is the love you carry in your heart for everything living,wrong is anything that tries to come between you and that love.-Truang Phen
I used to say "I hate America", but now, what I say is that I hate those in power. Many Americans are now getting clued in to what their government is up to, though I'm not sure if it's a majority or a minority, if you group them all together I'm positive there's enough people now with the knowledge of what's going on and the power to change things.
The problem we have is that the group that supports the government are united in their beliefs, but the group opposing government policy are split. Some may disbelieve the government due to the Gulf War Syndrome deception, others about 9/11, others after doing some research and learning about the "Economic Hit-Men" that the CIA use to obtain (steal) unsustainable resources from other countriest.
A current example of the latter is the Democratic Republic of the Congo. The DRC has 70% of the worlds Coltan and 30% of the worlds Diamond reserves, when the DRC refused a loan from the world bank in return for cheap Coltan and Diamond sales the UK sent operatives to Rwanda in order to start a war which drained the DRC's economy and left it unable to export and therefore profit from its own natural resources, finally in 2003 the DRC accepted a loan from the world bank of 1.3 Billion dollars, hostilities stopped, and when of course when they are unable to pay back the loan, they will be forced to sell off their resources to the various UK and US based companies already set up in the region (such as the London owned Katanga Mining Company).
My point is, amyone who does not support the government for whatever reason, should come together to force change, various small factions will never be able to manage it but together it just might be a big enough force to change the world for the better.
Viva La Revolucion!
Cite your sources.
you can never "force change". people must want to change. When you try to force or enforce any policy, you push people into a corner. and when you do that,they come out of the corner... fighting.
For more on this .."Bomb Harvest" on this site
@Psinet Well,THAT was certainly constructive..But honestly,How do you REALLY feel about us?
i did not know that there was such a history of laos. but i dont totally judge the americans. its not like the communist are innocent of killing. thats is why i hold my view that humans are inherently evil.
lols humans are inherently evil but you don't judge the Americans.
It must be positively dreamy to be you.
But, don't you see Chih? Before We can bomb You, WE have to declare YOU the evil which must be eliminated. All it takes to avoid that situation is to simply NOT make that judgement call.
I tend to believe that humans inherently wish to be left alone to lead a happy existence. The problem comes when people get a taste of luxury, and are determined to hold on to it.
"And all who heard should see them there,
And all should cry, Beware, Beware!
His flashing eyes, his floating hair!
Weave a circle round him thrice,
And close your eyes with holy dread,
For He on honey dew hath fed,
And drunk the milk of Paradise."
~ from the poem: Kubla Khan, by Samuel Taylor Coleridge
Here in America, we are forever being told that: "We should all be eternally thankful for all of the freedom, wealth, and prosperity which our our soldiers and our forefathers had so diligently fought for."
Literally translated, this means: "Shut the F@&# up, and don't ask what we do with our bombs; or we'll take away all of your toys, and make you eat $hit for the rest of your miserable, pathetic life!"
The US debacle in southeast Asia still unearths more lies,treachery and shame.Yet,Americans blind themselves in denial to the inhumanity of our governments culpability,notably the covert agendas of the CIA.Fifty years later,America still closes her eyes preferring not to know.Or care.The less we know,the better.Malheureusement,c'est la Guerre,le Jeu,la Honte.Rien va plus
When the Allies liberated Birkenau in 1945,the villagers were forced to see the horror of the death camp their army had built.They were then made to help exhume mass graves of murdered prisoners.Today our public is kept dumb,distracted diverted from reality. Let the Goddamn Good Times Roll
Excellent Vlatko. Fascinating, and truly disturbing. I HATE the US, and I always will, until they finally destroy themselves or plain fizzle out - not like terrorists hate the US, but in the way I hate drunken bullies on a Saturday night. Moronic, violent, mindless, deceitful bullies. I pity you, and feel utter revulsion at the same time. Your entire country and way of life is a lie, and documentaries like this prove it.
Wow, just say what you really mean, Psinet, don't sugar coat it! ;)
I doubt you'll find many people here that would disagree that terrible acts have been committed in the name of the American people, but a lot of the accusations you could make, could equally be levelled at many other countries. All nations are built on myths, and it follows that for a nation to become established and thrive, most of the citizens must have bought into those myths to some degree or other. Do you really believe that makes an entire nation evil? Please tell me you don't! Surely, if blame is to be levelled to anyone, it should be levelled fairly and squarely at the makers of those myths.
If your world view is one of polar opposites, ie. entire nations comprising of either good or evil citizens, then you're not really leaving much wiggle room for rational debate, and I think that's a real shame.
As with most things in life, the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. ;)
by believing everything you have just heard you are no better.... the secret governments of the world rely on people believing what they are presented with, they have massive media propaganda machines and strive to bend the truth to there own ends but seriously you should question every piece of evidence objectively im British so im not really that offended by what you wrote but i must say my country isnt much different from the level of secretive control that we have over us. don't believe everything you are told. besides the problem is with the us gov not the people its not the peoples fault they are bred and raised to be sheep and ultimatley that is what the u.s is the people!!.
An interesting response to my post. :)
I fear you've made a few assumptions about my position in these matters though, and you are effectively preaching to the converted. I rarely, if ever "believe everything that I've just heard" and I'm a firm believer in questioning everything in as balanced and as rational a manner as is humanly possible. I'm also all too aware of how the mainstream media has become the mouthpiece of the corporatocracy. So much so that I long since threw away my television set, and instead subscribe to alternative media sources.
I'm also British by the way, and I feel a deep frustration and anger at the mess that we, as a nation have allowed ourselves to be led into.
My original post in this thread was really just a plea to moderate and reasoned debate, which I believe we all gain from.
To Vlatko, thank you for proving such a valuable resource, and giving us a space to debate all these issues. :)
Peace to you my friend. But I don't believe in evil. Or even duality for that matter.
What I do believe in, is moronic, violent, mindless, deceitful bullies.
Sometimes, I suffer from a very human problem that I even feel some shame about: I cannot decide who I hate more - the liars, or the people that bought the lie until it became a truth.
I share your frustration, Psinet, and believe that we need to keep pointing the finger at those that lie and manipulate the masses. I can't find it in my heart to hate the masses who are deceived though, as I believe that in the main, there is a tendency for people to just want to fit in and feel that everything is taken care of for them. I should stress that I don't level that at any one country in particular, I believe it's more likely a part of the human condition. The problem is of course, that it leaves entire nations dangerously exposed to those that would (and do) corrupt for their own gain.
For me, the beauty of sites like this is that it tends to attract people who have a deeper understanding of how the world really works, and are of a more questioning nature, or else, why would they be here?
Lets hope that resources such as this continue to thrive, as I firmly believe that the sharing of knowledge, wisdom and insights, is humanity's best hope for the future. ;)
What paradise country are you from?
I prefer to think beyond state and arbitrary geographical boundaries. I don't align myself with anyone beyond the people I love.
Because none of us are as cruel as all of us.
While I don't like your arrogance I, as an American, tend to agree. We are doomed indeed. I personally think the demise will be a long painful fizzle - economically and otherwise. I think the current recession is the beginning of a long slide into decay. I don't think we'll be the "most powerful country in the world" in five years. Let's just hope that whichever empire inevitably takes that mantle won't be even worse...I'm not hopeful. Also, I think repent is the perfect and appropriate word for what is in order. Repent, biblically, means to "turn" to turn away from ways which are wrong and turn toward a new way.
Right and wrong are weapons as deadly as bombs and bullets. Right is the love you carry in your heart for living things. Wrong is anything that tries to come between you and that love.-Truang Phen
Good quote. I agree. When I mentioned turning from wrong to right I think your definition applied to those terms would work well.
Arrogance is turbo for cool. Second only to typing in CAPS
It must great to sit on taht high perch and know all and see all, how I envy you. You know nothing of America or Americans, but the propaganda fed to you by whatever agency you call a government. In America, when a film like this is made, it can be shown anywhere to anyone at anytime. Can you say atleast the same for your "Peoples Paradise"? I highly doubt it. Regardless, we make mistakes and no one is ever proud of their mistakes. But we dont shoot people that expose the mistakes, can you say the same for your Peoples Paradise? I highly doubt it. My point is, its not perfect, but its never been perfect anywhere, not in my land of Freedom, or your Peoples Paradise.
My country has far greater freedoms than yours ;)
If we could have only given them our scrap Davy Crockett Variable yield weapons we would own that place now. Sad I must say so many dead and all we got was mot tram dong and Indonesia, to bad we could have not moved the communist guerrillas to East Timor "wink wink". Oh well guess you cant win them all or no one would step up to be next if we did.....Laissez Les Bon Temps Roulez!
Laissez les Bons Temps Rouler.
No just a gambler tryin to plant my hedge seeds, Im all about the means to the future please check out youtube "korn-all my hate usaf bombing" and all u have to do is sell oil in dollars to get this war machine to fight for you we will eliminate any opposition from packistan to tunisia take no prisoner $hit you know "wink wink".... rOuLeR i dont know the meaning of the word.
je comprend.Par exemple,"ROULER loin d'ici..." non?
that would be: Laissez les bons temps, roulez loin d'ici.
A week of secrets.
The most secret place on earth
Secrets of the Koran
The secret life of your bodyclock
The secret evidence we are not alone
Well maybe we will get lucky Azilda and valtko will post the link to the documentry "The Models of Victoria's Secret behind the sceens" on sunday. If not Jake Thackray has a documentry im sure everyone would find 5 ***** hint hint!
Sounds rather like a Harry Potter book Collection,eh?
how come i never heard about this when i studied vietnam war briefly in school
Because we never learn anything but obedience and useless information in school. Education begins when schooling stops. There's a whole heap of things which happened in Vietnam including weather warfare and UFO technology testings.
You had me right up until your mind fell out Daft.
Check title of documentary.
You aren't supposed to know about a lot of things in school.Especially classified military skeletons in the closet..that's why they're CLASSIFIED.
After watching this doc it helps me understand why most of the world calls the U.S.A. the Great Satan, the C.I.A. has distroyed to much life it needs to be disbanded.
Lol! And they say secular states are way better than religious ones :D
& they are right too. They are much better than Countries that are run on outdated ancient myths. Secular nations have got a far better standard of living for their citizens, people are far better educated & secular nations have got a far better record when it comes to Human rights. Religion has always been & always will be just a tool used to control how people think & live their lives. Religion has no place in a modern, civilised society.
Civilisation is a term based on the notion of enslavement. Yes, 'we' are certainly 'civilised' and as slaves we adopt the given term of citizen. The root word meaning of City is sewer. I'll take mine fresh 'n wild, thanks.
BAHAHAHA and even BETTER is secular societies have a GINORMOUS military industrial complex with which they can bomb the s*** out of you if you don't agree!
The blind faith required by religion directly results in actions like this. The people guiding the sleeping public need not fear they will ask any questions. Think about it (if you can).
er....you realise in this doco the perpetrators are the US - a secular state?
Think about it (I know you could).
Spot on. They are both abominations!
The US cant be termed a secular state - its 80% Christian with a ragtag of other mumbo jumbo thrown in. 10% remainder is atheist. Those are the current numbers as I understand it.
Gods don't kill people. People with Gods do.
er - check Constitution
Er check reality.
It is so sad to see the same story unfold over and over again. As the west's bastion of freedom has moved ever closer to becoming a police state it has taken the role of the world's bully. Personally, this tragedy is compounded by my admiration and respect of many ordinary Americans I meet, trapped in a system that resists change as strongly as any autocracy or theocracy. In the waning days of American Empire look back and ask "why?"
The "why" is easy: Because ours is "the right way".
Wasn't my idea. Just repeating what I've been told my whole life.