Nietzsche: Beyond Good and Evil

1999, Philosophy  -   321 Comments
Ratings: 8.59/10 from 86 users.

Nietzsche: Beyond Good and EvilA brilliant young man, he was appointed professor at the University of Basel aged 24 having not even finished his degree. His evanescent philosophical life ended 20 years later when he went insane and died shortly afterwards.

Nietzsche's argued that the Christian system of faith and worship was not only incorrect, but harmful to society because it allowed the weak to rule the strong - it suppressed the will to power which was the driving force of human character. Nietzsche wanted people to throw of the shackles of our misguided Christian morality and become supermen - free and titanic.

However, without God he felt that the future of man might spiral into a society of nihilism, devoid of any meaning; his aim was for man to realise the lack of divine purpose and create his own values. The core of Nietzsche's work, including Thus Spake Zarathustra (1883-92), Beyond Good and Evil (1886), The Birth of Tragedy (1872) was to find a meaning and morality in the absence of God. (Excerpt from

321 Comments / User Reviews

  1. Vlatko

    Thanks JimHellas.

  2. JimHellas

    Quite interesting documentary, although it focuses more on Nietzsche's life and not that much on his work.

    Anyway, keep up the good work man :)

  3. Der Oberst

    A more or less mediocre documentary. It does indeed, as
    "JimHellas" says, focus a little too much on Nietzsche's life.
    The report tries to draw parallels between his life and philosophical thoughts but should have certainly said more about his convictions.
    Nietzsche published over 15 works and writings, I did however not learn anything new about him.

    3 out of 5 Stars.

    Der Oberst

  4. Solon

    Quite a poor documentary for anyone who wants to understand Nietzsche's philosophy. -Which is not surprising given the philosophers spoken to and that Anglo philosophy offers the poorest, most superficial interpretation of Nietzsche today.

    Showing ridiculous drawings of a buff Nietzsche set against the Parthenon was demonstrates appalling ignorance of the subject. As does the vapid commentary about whether his philosophy drove him mad, as though such a thing were even possible.

  5. Rapley

    The title of the documentary is Beyond Good and Evil... I did not interpret that as having to do with all his works and convictions, but only about that particular book. They did discuss it a bit but they also discussed a lot of aspects of Nietzshe's life beyond what the title implied, mainly to make the documentary longer than 15 minutes. Despite it not focusing solely on his book "Beyond Good and Evil", it was a very good biography of his life crammed in 50 minutes.

  6. melanie

    Though I watched this documentary in hopes of helping my research paper on "Beyond Good and Evil" and as others have pointed out, it really is more about his life than this particular book, I don't mind that though, it was an interesting way to learn about Nietzsche as opposed to the dry, dull stacks you usually find him in. Thank you.

  7. josken

    The death of god will be the birth of freedom... nicely said

  8. Mark

    Does that narration (of Neitzsche's writings) exist anywhere else in complete form, or were these extracts 'made' just for the documentary? The narrator adds such profundity to the words, he paints a rich picture. I would really love to find out if I can purchase that narration.

  9. eric

    what a delusional man, god is just an image man has created, an idea, nobody has killed anything, cause that which is of the past is dead to begin with, the image, the idea which is of memory, remembrance, the statues, the truth is not objective, or absolute, the moment one says what truth is that definition which is of the past gives death to any possibility of truth

  10. eric

    its like saying truth is indescribable or god is indescribable, what one has to understand is the distinction between truth and knowledge, knowledge is memory, intellectual facts,which is partial and very often lead to conclusions, which again is another part of memory that seeks to fill that void, when one has set those aside in their place, there can be truth when there is freedom of interference from the known, so that there can be discovery which is the unknown, and being guided by any philosophy, or religion is the known pursuing its own idea of what is, seeking to validate, to confirm which leads to such contradiction, why would one seek truth? when on the contrary one is just concerned with wrong or right, good or bad, or evil, a different angle of the same picture; good is not the opposite of evil, there is no conflict, that image which man has created of good is of interpretation, and has no meaning, which is the problem Neitze has noticed, and is the makeup of much of society today, the battle between good and evil, the wars, the evil Koreans, Iraqis, the video-games, and all the medias, one has to learn what it means to look, not where to search, and to question that which one finds is to negate the false

  11. InsertSloganHere

    Why is it that every time I turn around I see Ayn Rand, Nietzsche, Schopenauer, etc. You'd think David Hume, Bertrand Russell and Noam Chomsky were never born. It seems as though if you are a philosopher that, as long as you're decidedly right wing, you reinforce the age old maxim that "might is right" and you say nothing of any importance whatsoever, your place in history is guaranteed. My own theory on Nietzsche is that he went mad trying to spell his last name. I know, it's not a good joke, there's nothing funny about mental illness. My favorite Ayn Rand quote so far is "Achievement of your happiness is the only moral purpose of your life, and that happiness, not pain or mindless self-indulgence, is the proof of your moral integrity, since it is the proof and the result of your loyalty to the achievement of your values." - Ayn Rand. The torturers, pedophiles and all-round scumbags must breathe a collective sigh of relief after reading that one, eh? I have to go now, there's some angels here dancing on the head of a pin and they're not going to count themselves. I only wish that Rand, Nietzsche and Schopenauer were here to help me!

  12. J. Miller

    I'm confused here. At the beginning of this documentary i thought i heard it stated that he lived to be 44 years old. And, as you can see in the very first paragraph it seems to imply that. If you add 24 + 20 and take the end of that paragraph at face value "and died shortly thereafter" it seems that one would think he did die at age 44. Did I, or whoever created this documentary just get confused about the year he was born, 1844, and somehow write here that he only lived to be 44. On many other websites that I just checked it states he lived until 1900 and died at age 55.

    This was my, at age 46, first actual exposure to Nietzsche, though I've heard about him all my life. I have avoided him all these years for some inner nagging reason that I don't quite know why. I suppose I've heard about his thoughts in snippets from others on they fly here and there over the years and I guess i just shyed away. But, upon seeing this brief overview of his life, which clearly designs to present him as a tragic figure, it is clear why I shyed away. I have come to my own conclusions on these topics and now I realize I agree with much that he said. Unfortuantly even though he rejected religion he had clearly been swallowed up by it and live his whole life as a response to it yet in reality he really wanted to be the new Jesus, but all he could muster was to be the new John the Baptist. And I bet he knew that deep down. For if his thought was fueled by illness and so it possibly colored himself with his thoughts into his saviour thoughts about himself. But it looks as if he knew what he was doing throughout. Doesn't everyone who lives today think at some point that they, alone, know what is best for all? And think that no matter how they arrived at that conclusion, be it independent thought, research, or based upon ideas taught to them by others led them to their stance of being all-knowing. Don't we see just this kind of thinking on the face of every talking head on television right now, and out of the mouth of every radio talker. Doesn't everyone think they know what is best for all, at least at some point in their lives? Since Nietzsche seems to have taken the "high road" of his times, and seemed to put down everything happening around him I wonder if he would do the very same today and become one of those uber P.C. persons who twirl around and around giving loathing to all at all times in the form of letting their high road take them into the kind of madness that makes television news what it is now? I think Nietzsche would have to grow up a lot more. When I arrived at the point he was at when he died, I think I felt like I shiould be the one that everyone comes to with questions of direction that only i could answer. But it seems to me that there is more to living in a world devoid of good and evil than just reminding everyone to make sure they realize that, and then pushing them to grow grow grow. It seems to me that none of us have ever lived in a world of good and evil, since it has never existed. To awake to reality was hard for me. And to wander the earth pondering what to do next has been hard to do too. Now that I've been exposed to Nietzsche I can see I'm not the original i've wondered if i was. He was there first. and a century ago too. This is what i've noticed these days, every time i think i'm original i'm wrong. somebody else already did that and thought that. and the internet makes it so easy to verify that. So, here I sit at my computer with Nietzsche, which is extremely unoriginal for our times. And so here i sit.

  13. Paul

    I guess I have to agree with what some people say about the documentary, it does appear to focus too much in Nietzsche's life. They never talk about certain important aspects of his philosophy that was similar to Heraclitus, or how his philosophy has influenced postmodernism, and what his views of language and philology was. They did explain the notion of will to power, transvaluation of values, and etc, but they simplified it so much that his philosophy loses essential meaning. I think what they tried to do is embody his philosophy in his biography, and I commend them for that. I think the documentary, as far as biography goes, is decent. I still enjoy watching the documentary even though his philosophy wasn't explained in depth.

  14. Mark

    Indeed very weak, just the way these historians speak they can hardly speak strong words of the man they look up to, like nervous peasants.

    I was laughing so much at the actor who was zarathura, so pathetic, more like a beggar.

    Great Men realise humanity is devoid of any purpose, when dead they are remembered from a deluded peasant view, lol, they cant even speak the sayings with enough boldness to make it sound their own, oh well

  15. Vana

    True, this is more of a commentary of his life. I do have to say that upon this documentary, after several years of looking for my appreciation in Nietzsche's work, I have to my surprise, finally found it.
    While, I do not agree with everything that this man shared with his fellow men, I can say that one of his dearest convictions appeals to me. The conviction that one should think for ones self reigns quite high in my world.

  16. Lori George Alexander

    I thought it was a good documentary and explained quite a bit about his life and his writings. Years ago,I tried reading him but got lost. Here, the film made more sense to me and tied some things together.

    I am not a Christian so don't get defensive when the subject of the "god is dead" comes up. I was not sure what that was about until I saw this film.

    Great job....

  17. Reasons Voice

    True this doc is more about the life of Nietzsche that about his works and thoughts. But I believe that is essential to understanding. One must know the man and his expiriences to know his mind. Nietzsche was a trajic figure in many senses. From all appearances he was reclusive and disturbed. His philosophy is like an art. Picasso was mad that does not invalidate his works, the same applies to Nietzsche. His behaviors as well as his writings show a deeply depressed sntisocial personality. That led him to being deeply introspective and he had many revelations due to that. Also though we must accept that his nature inevitably tainted his works with morbidity and dissalusionment. A truely great man but alas he too was "All too Human"

  18. Lori George Alexander

    I appreciate your written contribution but resist your assumption that certain people bring into the arena of human thought particular disorders of the human mind. Categorizing different people into what is "normal" and not is for me dismissing what is truly great about their intellectual achievements.

    I am astonished to read in your post that you dismiss some of Picasso's genius as madness and although you brought it up only as a comparison to Nietzsche and certainly not to invalidate his artistic endeavors.

    Nietzsche was who he was and to categorize him as reclusive and being disillusioned among other things does him a disservice to who he was. For instance, from a Freudian point of view because he did not have a successful intimate relationship he must be considered a failure as a human being is not accurate although that was not what your post said at all. I am just using another filter. He was in many ways a very successful thinker. Who is to say who is faulty and who is not?

    The motivation here for me is the multitude of biographers and critics that dismiss other people using standards that may or may not be valid for the person in question. I am of the school that thinks it is enough to say what a person has done and what achievements he or she has accomplished. Any further interpretation is meaningless for each of our lives change constantly even hourly so it is impossible to draw any assumption.

  19. Spro Jammer

    I don't know guys, I thought it was pretty good. I think they did a reasonable job of wrapping his life experiences in with his main philosophical tendencies without patronizing his work. Also I'm glad they discussed Birth of Tragedy a bit because I reckon that one's somewhat overlooked.

    Besides how many docs about Nietzsche are there anyway? I'm satisfied!

  20. curious

    nothing in this man's philosophy cannot be found in some way in the works of those before him ... what i see in this man's books are great ideas terribly misguided ... in the end, one is better off reading older texts where the wisdom is less adulterated by confusion ...

  21. IslamRose

    He was too blasphemous. Other than that,he's an interesting Philosopher. Doc. was Okay, I was expecting more than a Biography as well.

    Thanks Vlatko for the Doc, Add more Philosophy Docs, but only after I watch the remaining three.



  22. Maya

    I was really eager to watch the documentary and i expected that it could help me to understand more about one of the most important Philosopher in the world, but what i watched was about a person who was more ill than a philosopher. Don't you think that time for this kind of documentary had gone?. We need to get a better knowledge about philosophers. I hope we will see another documentary about him very soon.

  23. MDB

    Would not the circular matter of the subject lead to madness?

    My contention is it doesn't matter whether God exists or not.

    If you happen to believe, and it makes you a better person for doing such, so what?

    If you happen to not believe and that makes you a better person, what God could look upon you unfavorably?

    If you do or you don't and you fail to be a better person, if God doesn't punish you there are other ways in which things seek an equilibrium.

    The point I'm trying to make is that it really doesn't make any difference what gets you to strive to be of self-worth, and a provider as opposed to a taker, or to make you feel spiritually inspired. Whether that God lives inside you or not, as long as its a loving feeling, one that understands the fragility of life and how precious it is, what, than is there be to be afraid of?

    And we all die alone, in that whether you believe in a god or not we scientifically understand that in essence its really just a matter of energy transference, and no one we know of has come back to tell us just what's going on after that happens. Your guess is as good as mine and anything beyond that will drive you mad.

  24. Danjah

    good work.
    I'm satisfied.

  25. Mike

    Actually titled "Human, all too human". Also as others said, I was disappointed due to the focus on his life rather than his ideas.

  26. Thang Tran

    Well, some religions have the belief that those who do not believe are either condemned to hell , should be convert, or burned. Some actually choose to carry out these beliefs and therefore interferes with non-believers. Beliefs do indeed have an negative impact on non-believers and believers. Let me elaborate, what if I had the belief that murder would allow the murdered person passage into heaven and therefore greatly benefit him or her. This would in turn cause me to murder a lot of people, and that would not be dubbed a "good" thing by most of society.

  27. truthbetold4all

    Isn't it really about finding ones self and not about having the tools to do it. It is a personal journey and I thought they delivered that in this doc

  28. Roan7995

    What is this beautiful string music that starts playing at 35:40?

  29. Fergus W B Ruston

    What do you mean by that? Surely a representative story of his life is what we should strive for? If his illness shaped his life, and therefore his philosophy, surely we should take this into consideration. Regardless, the best way to get to know philosophers is to read them.

  30. Fergus W B Ruston


  31. Dionely Reyes

    I like this documentary, but those British accents make me sleepy...

  32. David Foster

    But the dead would be happy. :)

  33. Isabella

    I really enjoyed this, however i would prefer if they would have been more detailed in describing his philosophy. There was alot of info on his biography and life,which was really interesting, but too little on his ideas.

  34. BarryGilmer

    I don't know if you are going to read this. Hopefully, you will get a notification telling you that someone replied to your post. I would suggest reading some of his works. That is the only way that you'll be able to really get what he is saying. Otherwise, you are stuck with the perspectives of others, and often those interpretations tend to be wrong as people sometimes take only what they want to hear

  35. rob introp

    hi eem i left school quite young but am very much interested in nietzsche and other philosophers.. but find it very hard keep track of their talk.. is there any king of breakdowns of these that i could find... if anyone knows? bthanks rob..

  36. bosqi_a1ex

    he is my hero

  37. Isabella

    Well, Ivé read most of his works, however, I was eager to find a good documentary to show my students, which explained his philosophy more.

  38. JustMe___1

    What exactly do you mean?

  39. Angela Allen

    wikipedia, rob

  40. ibleedthought

    An amazing and prolific person in any account even my own, which is post-mordum. Neitzcshe is the epitome of a genius and a amazing thinker. His ideals and principals are so well rounded in comparison to most peoples justifications of what is and what isn't, or how things should be -that in itself proves his worth in society.

  41. Atheist13

    Hats off to all involved in the making of this great but all too short doc.

    There are many comments below which state the film concentrates too much on his personal life and not enough on his philosophy. They have a small point but it would have been an impossible task to encompass the thoughts of a man who turned all previous philosophy on its head and came up with a new one in just 50 mins. That they get an outline of just some of his major points in the time allotted is no small achievement. Bear in mind also that this is one of a three part series with Heidegger and Sartre called “Human, all too human.” Which is a look into the lives of the founding fathers of existentialism, a philosophy which focuses on individual freedom and responsibility so it’s bound to be a bit personal.

    For those who would like to know more about Nietzsche’s philosophy the best thing you can do is read his works. You will be rewarded with pearls of wisdom and some of the most beautiful prose ever written. I don’t agree with all he has to say but I am still a huge fan.

    “He who writes in blood and aphorism does not do so just to be remembered, he wishes to be learnt by heart” (Thus Spake Zarathustra)

    I’m happy to oblige dear Friederich.

    There seems to be an all too barren wilderness in the realm of philosophy documentaries.

    Drink well from this oasis.

  42. avd420

    And to add to your point,if they had 10 different men discussing Nietzsche's philosophy you may very well get what seems to be 10 different philosophies :P

  43. Atheist13

    You're so right. But it would be a good discussion. He didn't want to fit into any classification and railed at systemisers.

  44. Guest

    You seem to be a very clever, funny person, InsertSloganHere. It's a shame we haven't seen more from you around here... If you're done counting those angels yet, I sure wish you'd come back!

  45. dave.eggermont

    Nietszche was probably the first human to recreate himself over and over in his works, people sometimes miss the point that that was why he could never and will never be anything else but Nietszche. A true unique human being. His own ruler!

  46. Isabelle Smith

    love some of his ideas, but my imput on the matter is that mankind should seek true and power , but to improve our being ,our life , conditions of living or better to find a better way to coexistence.we by definition have a free will , what we decide to do with it is up to us. sa human and by experience just remenber that no matter what your aspiration is it will always come back to hunt you down.

  47. John Gros

    I think Nietzsches "will to power" is his way of saying empowerment. He calls for us to be proactive, to seek our happiness, to learn, and to change due to what we learn.

  48. barefoot cinderella

    let us remember that he went insane

  49. barefoot cinderella

    read ecclesiastes in the bible, the writer is makes many similar exclamations to nietszche

  50. leigh pierce

    It has been said that: 'with all other religions in the world you have to work to be saved!, but with the Christian religion you are already saved - through Jesus Christ...'

  51. Shane Van-Heer

    did anyone ever figure out how the author became insane??? attempt figuring out what drove him bats "first".

  52. pedrso90

    Now let's work on the implications of "freedom", specially nowadays.
    Then you may have a point, if you manage to conquer your own freedom first...

  53. Havoc Simon


  54. Guest

    And a woody for his sister.

  55. Paul Sankar

    who labelled him insane? that is the real evil.

  56. nothing matters

    I wonder how Nietzsche view the world if he ever try some weed or LSD.

  57. Guest

    "Under the influence of the narcotic potion hymned by all primitive men and peoples, or in the powerful approach of spring, joyfully penetrating the whole of nature, those Dionysiac urges are awakened, and as they grow more intense, subjectivity becomes a complete forgetting of the self." -Nietzsche

  58. Guest

    @David Foster
    >implying that the dead feel anything or are conscious of anything

  59. realthuginhurr

    >implying that the dead feel anything or are conscious of anything

  60. smalsus

    What would u do, if u would see a dog in a mirror???

  61. Corey

    i believe that the vary thing that made nietzsche a brilliant mind also doomed him too insanity he could not have operated under normal social dealings an follow his beliefs at the same time so if anything we should be amazed by this one mans inner strength to subject himself to these kind of self experiments if u will, all to find some sort of meaning in not just himself but in the lives of mankind in general a truly astonishing example of self sacrifice in the name of understanding

  62. smalsus

    sorry, a horse...

  63. smalsus

    Philosophy scares me... But where will u run?? Where will u hide?? And for what reason if u are finite, anyway??

  64. smalsus

    sorry, a horse...

  65. FreeTh1nker

    a PHILOSOPHER who went insane? If he was a well respected philosopher, he could've just became sane.
    insanity is the world and society in which we live today.

  66. cassy eltham

    the only sane reaction to an insane world is insanity itself...

  67. smalsus

    Actually i readed not much of Nietzsche. But what i readed and from this documenatry, i fomr an opinion, that he wanted to go very high, but he couldnt and so he fall down. He felt like a horse or smth like that. He felt compassion to him, an animal, and broke down?

  68. poisson rouge

    I believe that God had placed religions on earth to prevent people from misleading their way. To be a God is an invalid state, because you will never be aware of everything & nothing, and the sum of man's knowledge is constant if not growing. To be Godless has its impossibility but to be a human which is the highest rank of beasts is reachable. Nietzsche wanted to be a human, with no God on a cross. Maybe he needed a different religion but he chose a belief with no Godly word, but Godly laws that was designed to the birth of "human" but he questioned their existence and doubt is means to certainty.

  69. Petros Petrosyan

    It makes sense now , he was a crazy man. Ive read his stuff in school , i thought it was erratic and rambling. If man didnt have the consequences that religion instilled there would be no man today. Think about how as history progressed while ethics and morality decreased. There is alot of crazy **** that happens today that simply didnt happen as little as 50 years ago. The straying from religion and the creation of many false ones, can be correlated to the lack of faith in todays society. This is undeniable.

  70. Guest

    The Parable of the Madman --- why was the madman carrying a lantern in the bright morning light?

    To understand Nietzsche, one must first realize that he was very literary in his approach to his ideas, that he was sarcastic and 'tongue in cheek' in his use of language. He wrote during the same time as Oscar Wilde and with a similar sense of humor as GB Shaw (who represents the next generation). If you read Nietzsche with an understanding of his 'style' his 'author's voice' and in the context of his culture as a writer, you will better understand his philosophy and you will actually find him to be brilliantly entertaining and even quite funny at times, yet always incisively analytical.

    To read him in a purely literal (non-literary) and simply linear way is to misunderstand him completely. However, he was dead serious about the challenge that humankind (ie. society) would face in the absence of religious compulsion and offered solutions on living a full life and how to be a decent human being. We're living in that challenge now...

    And, by the way, Nietzsche went crazy because of untreated Syphilis, not because of his philosophy. Remember, there were no penicillin in his day.

  71. Daniel Kraußer

    Does someone know which piece is played at the end?
    sounds rather sad. -very beautiful!

  72. Daniel Kraußer

    I figured it out myself.
    it´s "Death and Transfiguration" by Richard Strauss! :)

  73. jim bob

    First tell us all what a true religion is. Then explain why there is any more evidence or reason to believe this 'true' religion above another. Unfortunately there isn't a lack of faith in today's society. Faith is not something that should be respected. It is the belief in something without evidence or in spite of the evidence. That is not something to be respected at all. That is something that should be ostracized and attacked for the dangerous nonsense that it is. The vast majority of the population has faith. The things that happen today that didn't happen 50 years ago cannot be attributed to just one cause. This is a flaw in your rationale. Society and the directions that society takes is an extremely complex issue with many variables and influences. To attribute things such as killing or war to a lack of faith shows ignorance in history as well as how society works.

  74. Sraigyr

    Word! Well written, very true, very good!

  75. Francesco

    Like many great minds he lived before his time, before the people and the society were ready for his ideas... but for the rest of us that come after him we are forever grateful!

  76. AntiTheist666

    In loving memory of Dear Friedrich, a small tribute.

    The Tragedy of Birth

    My Fellow Sufferers, to be born at all is tragedy. The greater the level of consciousness and intellect, the greater the tragedy. Thus spoke Nietzsche in “Beyond Good and Evil”. “Can a donkey be tragic?” He asks in “The Twilight of the Idols” as it perishes beneath a load it can no longer bear nor shrug off. This, he said, was the philosopher. I would extend this definition to include those capable of deducing their own demise and irrelevance, those with eyes and ears capable of reaching beyond the veil of Maya, those who can see truth in all its forms, a free spirit, a fearless one. You perhaps?

    As much as it may seem irrational, illogical and counter intuitive, life in all its vain glory is meaningless. (1) Meaning = Morality, a perspective. Again in TTOTI Nietzsche says morality must be shot at to keep it on its toes. Perhaps to make it dance and sing? Our most firmly held truths surely deserve the most rigorous examination, yet many escape even the most basic of questioning and are simply taken for granted. E.g. Religion, Free Will, Politics, Justice, Ethics etc. Even after all my years I still find it stunning that the majority of people don’t question the nature of their existence. The herd instinct seems to have developed into a stampede of stupidity. Consumerism gone mad grips the western world and is choking it to death! Have they become the Last Man and stand blinking in the glare of their ignorance? There is no insult or scapegoating here, for many years I was he. Ignorance really is bliss.

    I’m reminded of this quote by Jiddu Krishnamurti.

    “It is no indicator of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society”

    For those not familiar with Nietzsche I would urge you to acquaint yourself with his thoughts by any means possible. Reading his life works would be best, though I would pay sceptical attention to “The Will to Power” which was cobbled together by his sister after his death. In them you will find the most thorough investigation of the human psyche. Written in some of the most engaging and enthralling prose ever put to page. Some ask where to begin with him and some have other negative reservations. Put all preconceptions to one side, the positives far outweigh the negatives. His updated published works in book form are best but you can access the whole archive online, most titles are available for download as audiobooks.

    So, where to begin? Despite the title of this article, I would not start with “The Birth of Tragedy”, his first book, nor would I dive straight into the dizzying heights of Zarathustra. “Ecce Homo” is best read last of all. TTOTI subtitled “How to Philosophize with the Hammer” was written for those new to him and is short and sweet, though a little bitter and twisted in parts. All of his titles are well worth reading but if I had to stick my neck out and say to those who would not commit to reading even a single book, try this, just the first chapter of “Beyond Good and Evil”(2) titled “On the prejudices of philosophers”. Though any starting point is infinitely better than none at all. I hope all enquiring minds will not be able to resist going further.

    What’s so important about Nietzsche? His enquiries into the values of truth, reason, morality and the nature of humankind are legend for good reason, but are not, it seems to me, being fully understood or applied by the general public. Was his salvation from nihilism not convincing enough? Is the most fundamental truth of all truths, that there is no such thing as free will, the most hard to bear? Have we learnt anything more than 100 years later? (See his letter below.)

    Although I admire Nietzsche, he is not free from error or criticism. Should Nietzsche be shot at? With a rifle perhaps? But wait, - he already dances and sings beautifully! Should we deny him as he asked us to deny Schopenhauer? What would Zarathustra say of Nietzsche?

    “Deny him? – No! Be ashamed of him”... methinks?

    “Love him” say I - sing his “Hymn to Life”. Dance around the fallen Idols. (Ideals.)

    When one has read and digested his beautiful words of wisdom, what then? What conclusions can we draw? His response to Schopenhauer’s subjugation of the will as an answer to pessimism was of course the yea saying superman. Who, if anyone, is right here? In this meaningless life full of suffering, boredom and Danse Macabre of Grand Folly humankind needs good answers. My own view is this; no one has a choice to do anything other than what they do. Determinism Rules! Although this might sound bleak, it is nevertheless true. We might as well adopt “Amor Fati” because that’s all we are going to get and we are all just pieces of it. The traditional method of understanding the self as an autonomous thing has to be revaluated, nay, transvaluated. (Sorry.)

    You and I no longer exist... Be a creator and give birth to us.

    Recreate humankind, become The Overcoming man.

    Long live the Dionysian.

    (1) See Arthur Schopenhauer’s “Studies in Pessimism” Chapter 2. “On the Vanity of Existence”

    (2) Sils-Maria, September 24, 1886: Letter to Malwilda von Meysenbug

    Esteemed friend.

    This is my last day here in Sils-Maria; all the birds have flown; the fall sky is gloomy; it’s getting cold,—so “the hermit of Sils-Maria” has to be on his way.
    [....] I have recently sent you a book. Its title is Beyond Good and Evil: Prelude to a Philosophy of the Future. (Forgive me! It isn’t that you're supposed to read it, much less give me your opinion of it. People will dare read it, I suppose, some time around the year 2000...) [....]

    God, I’m sorry about how long this post is. And yet I have hardly said anything. Congrats to anyone who made it this far.


    Sapere Aude

  77. AntiTheist666

    Well said, I was inspired by your comment to write mine.

  78. Pysmythe

    "Beyond Good and Evil," then?

  79. AntiTheist666

    Hold on Hos, not so fast. Everybody’s different, and I know a little about you and how you know about Wagner. Who Nietzsche gives a rather fawning tribute to in “The Birth of Tragedy”. Let me know if you are downloading audio or text and I'll give you my answer.

  80. Pysmythe

    Text, for sure. Audio's an option, but since I'm so "susceptible to the seductions of sound," and all its attendant emotional pitfalls, I think it's really better for my rational understanding to stick with the printed word in a case like this. But are you hinting that there are audio-books of Nietzsche with selections of Romantic music accompanying them?

  81. AntiTheist666


    Audio on the iPod is the much superior option; you can listen while out walking, I love it. Being rational about Dear Friedrich (hint) is to misunderstand him from the off. He would want you to Bold, Daring and Passionate about discovering him. You’ll find this out if you read him and him alone, he was quite specific about this. Almost all his works are available free at LibraVox Dot Org. Some of the recordings are excellent and some are dire. And don’t forget you tube, there are some professional recordings there if you search for them

    ”But are you hinting that there are audio-books of Nietzsche with selections of Romantic music accompanying them?

    No, but one in particular “The Twilight of the Idols” The narrator (a well known Phil. Prof.) reads it so masterly that the wonderful prose and the sound of his incredible voice and the words combine in lush tones of the sweetest symphony. I predict you’ll love it. And it’s free. Whoopee! So that’s the audiobook choice and “Beyond Good and Evil in text.You'll love the first line of the preface. Or perhaps the romantic one in you might prefer “The Joyful Wisdom” aka “The Gay Science”. Dammit Man get them all! They are all good, you can’t go wrong N. writes in short aphoristic bursts so you can take breath and mull things over, or press pause and think for a minute, did I get that? What? You’ll need to. Have fun whichever way you choose. Sorry about the long winded reply but I can’t help but be passionate about Dear Friedrich. Not sure of anything just ask, I’m always willing to help a fellow hitchhiker.

    The Passionate One

  82. Pysmythe

    Well, I think I'll start with "Beyond". Already downloaded it, in fact. I'm glad to know, too, that it's largely a collection of aphorisms! This will help the way I intend to approach it, which will definitely be in short bursts. Normally, I read fairly quickly, but not this time, I think... Friedrich (lol) was always someone I intended to make my way around to, and I want to be sure I not only enjoy him, but understand him as much as possible. Sometimes, though, you know... you really do LOCK into certain things, and comprehension seems to follow almost effortlessly. I'm hoping that happens here, that I'm really prepped for what he has to say, but... I'm not going to push it, either. I tried that with Kant when I was a much younger man, and went sailing right over the cliff. Hopefully, you don't have to have quite as much of a technical background in previous philosophies to access Nietzsche as you do with Kant, though of course that couldn't hurt any, I'm sure.

    Thanks for the recommendation, and I'll keep you apprised of my progress, if you like. :)

  83. AntiTheist666


    Yes I’d like that very much; I’m hoping @Ch H comes back soon, as she seems to love him dearly too. Her views from the female side could be interesting especially as she is a Catholic/Hindu Goddess. And she knows of the clashing views of N. Enjoy BGE

    The Intrigued One

    Edit. Let me know who's translation it is as well please.

  84. Pysmythe

    The translation is by Helen Zimmern, and does come off as a little antiquated, to be honest, but I went with the only one that was on offer with this app. I made it up to #16, thus far, and thus far he's administering a pretty sound thrashing (so far as I'm really able to tell!) to all those venerable sages on the mountain ahead of him. In his characterizing of previous philosophers as autobiographers, in essence, restricted by incumbrances of historical morality of which they likely weren't even aware, I'm pretty sure I detect a distinct influence from Goethe, for whom 'dichtung und wahrheit' (poetry and truth) meant so much, and who also had a profound dislike and distrust of the very same morality that had colored over nearly everything before him, and who also preferred to acknowledge the limitations of systematic philosophies and the central role of the self in whatever our constructions of the world will be, with "untruths" holding potentially as significant a role and influence as any other, seen from a daily perspective. There seems to be a lot of very subtle humor interspersed, as well, that I don't remember ever being led to expect, which has been a pleasant surprise, although I have to suspect that Zimmern's translation may not be doing it real justice from this point in time.

  85. AntiTheist666


    You’ve done so well. In case you don’t know, BGE is very similar to TSZ but with less poetic prose. Its better I feel to read them this way round. Yes I find it highly amusing also. And yes he trounced them all, even those he learnt most from. Even the mighty Goethe gets a clout round the ear for his clumsy prose. just the beginning. It gets much better!!!! Do you feel like he’s talking to you yet? I’m glad you saw how he turned the philosopher’s philosophy back on them and said what does it point too? Autobiography? Then incisive Psychology? Next! Then with elegant economy of effort he swats away those who stood before him for centuries and turns it all on its head. Now it’s going to be my way he says.

    The why is truth worth more than appearance question is a bit trickier and he will address this several times. Watch out I think some views on women are coming your way. Take them with a pinch of salt. BGE and other works need several readings in different translations for all his subtle treasures to be discovered but your well on your way down the right road. I hesitate to say how many times I’ve read TTOTI but it’s more than 10! Was I right in my original posting when I said that enquiring minds would not be able to resist going further than chapter 1? I think if you have an appreciation of logic, he’s got you? Enjoy your amazing adventure with this amazing man.

    The Overcoming One

    Edit. When you have read all his works you absolutely must read all his letters to get a full experience of N.

  86. AntiTheist666


    Lo Py

    “Thanks for the recommendation, and I'll keep you apprised of my progress, if you like. :)”

    “Yes I’d like that very much”

    Is it just my imagination runnin away with me? Or are you already applying what you’ve learnt from BGE?
    No doubt you’ll be using lots of exclamation marks soon!!!!!!!
    You know I’m dying to hear where you’re up to. So spill.

    The Infuriated One : Note the passion here ;-)

  87. Pysmythe

    I can see how the words BEYOND and BOLD might have grabbed your attention, and all of a sudden I find it very curious that I chose to highlight them, when, so far as I know, I was simply trying to talk to Charles from my own experience! Lol, it may be I'm applying it at unawares, or just that, as of yet, what I've thought about certain things chimes well enough with Nietzsche, which I don't think would surprise me very much. After all, I'm pretty sure I've been living in his philosophical world, by and large, even if I'm only just now getting around to attending any of his sermons!

    I was trying to keep a bit of a low profile (so far as I was aware) regarding my progress, because the truth is we've had a bit of a serious family drama with my 20 yr old son these last two days that has put us all under a lot of stress, so that I've only been able to make it up to #19, the part covering Schopenhauer's notions of the Will. And I confess I'm having a lot of difficulty with this section, running around like a chicken with its head cut off looking for the central idea... I don't know whether it's the translation, or a lack of knowledge about specifics of Scho, or both, or what have you (like my dull brain, for example). It would be great if you could review that section, sum up Nietzsche's premise for me in a couple of sentences, and this way I could reread it with at least more clarity before moving on.

    Now, don't be too stern an instructor!! Give me a peg to hang my hat on here!!!

  88. dewflirt

    Hey Mr P, hope you're all ok :)

  89. Pysmythe

    Yeah, we're gonna be fine. My son, the silly boy, is just thinking with his pecker, lol. He's gotten himself involved with a MUCH older woman, who's clearly taking advantage of him financially, and it's REALLY driving his mother crazy... which means it's driving ME crazy, lol.

  90. Pysmythe

    I probably should clarify this a little bit, though. The fact is, my son is mildly mentally disabled... He has never learned to read, his I.Q. is around 70, and his reasoning skills in general are very poor. He has started drawing a disability-check for this, and the woman he's "in love with" has a long history of drug and alcohol abuse, to which she has apparently introduced HIM... My wife is hellbent on getting him away from this woman, and so am I, to be honest, and we've actually gotten a lawyer involved to help us.

  91. dewflirt

    Is this the rash boy you mentioned before? Bless his cotton socks, must be hard having two brains ;) I think if I was your wife I'd accidentally on purpose bump into this lady and have a very polite word in her ear. Lots of teeth in my smile! Easiest all round if you have your say, shut up and ride it out. It'll work itself out.
    Women eh? Can't live with 'em..... ;)

  92. Guest

    Scrap my last comment. In this case I'd just go round and sit in her house until she saw things my way. If I thought some old baggage was taking advantage of my kids.... well I have my man to hold me back :/

  93. Pysmythe

    No, no, that's his older brother, who learned his lesson pretty quickly, lol. That one is 23 now, married, and has managed to stay pretty sharp these last few years, so I'm hoping... He always was much smarter than his poor brother, though.

    My wife has already done exactly that, Dew, at a coffee place downtown, right in front of God and everybody, and, boy, was that woman shaking! But it evidently didn't work quite well enough, so... we're not going to let him be taken advantage of, or be around such an influence, insofar as we're able to help it.

  94. dewflirt

    Haha, like her style! Hell hath no fury like a mother, now I know things will be okay :)

  95. Pysmythe

    The blatant truth, in my opinion, and his mother's? This woman is his first sexual experience and that's what all this is stemming from... I really think if he'd gotten laid in high school, there's no way things would've shaken out like this, that he wouldn't be attaching this much importance to this relationship. He may be slow, but he's a good-looking kid, and he works hard at the jobs he's given. He can do much better than this 43(!!!) yr old, but we're having an impossible time convincing him of that.

  96. dewflirt

    Can his brother talk to him, sew seeds of discontent? A nice brotherly chat about saggy boobs or something? I once accidentally put my friend off a man by telling her his eyes were a bit soggy looking :)

  97. AntiTheist666


    ELO Py

    Ok I’ll be brief...Be Daunted and run away and hide...or...Be Thrilled at the Prospect of such a Challenge...Hmm

    Re Style. Have no worries it’s all in my imagination. I do it on purpose to keep him alive and of course it’s a tribute as well.

    Re BGE

    From the off I’ll say some of his stuff is easy and some is incredibly deep. And some of his stuff is just plain wrong. You have to look to the historical background of where he was at when he wrote this Brilliant Book. Late middle period Nietzsche lol. The biggest difficulty through all his books for you will be the historical references to other philosophers and their philosophies. This is where I can be of most help to you. I feel so sorry that you attempted Kant without any philosophical training, even some of the very words had different meanings back then and it was written for Academics; Kant also built this Architectonic Language into the massive edifice of the Critiqué, no wonder you fell off. Lol poor soul.

    So to understand N. you will need to know what he was rebelling against at the time. Kant and Schopenhauer’s philosophies (amongst others) were still prevailing at the time of his writings. N. expertly dismantles both of them. For Kant you have the world as Noumena (the thing in itself) and for Schopenhauer you have the world as will and idea/representation. Pretty much the same thing really. Kant and Scho (lol) are regularly clobbered by N. It’s typical of him to bash those he learnt most from.

    When you’ve finished N. read Scho, it’s beautiful and really easy to grasp, save the historical background lol.

    BGE #19 Is about willing and how it’s not free will. N. is writing about physical, biological, emotional and psychological manifestations of this willing from the beginning. He takes them in logical steps and comes to the inevitable conclusion. There might not even be a will, let alone that it’s free! (Soz)

    By the time N wrote BGE he had already demolished the world around him and was looking at only Nihilism. I’ll leave you to tell me what you think he put in its place. I hope that’s helped. Always ask again if I’m not clear. I offer this tip, if you are struggling with an aphorism, just make a note of its no. and move on, you can ask me or go back to it at any time. Causa Sui coming up, much easier. Lol

    I hope all your family probs are soon sorted.

    The AllTooHuman One

    Edit. I've changed physiological (covered) to psychological.(What I meant) Doh!

  98. Pysmythe

    Well, now, there again you put your finger on yet another component of this whole thing... The woman has worn her age pretty well, and doesn't look bad at all, and her boobs are gigantic, without a bit of sag that I can see. Her caboose is a little broad for my tastes, but, hey, he listens to a lot of RAP music, anyway, lolol. (Maybe this kid's a lot brighter than he's ever been given credit for, I dunno. If it weren't for the drug and alcohol thing...) We enlisted his brother to talk with him, yeah, because he's always looked up to him, but it didn't do any good.

  99. Pysmythe

    So the thesis of #19 is whether or not freewill exists, as defined by Scho? Okay, that seems simple enough, though it is a little difficult to get even there from the text! So many references are thrown around in it that I think it would also be good to supplement a rereading of it with at least an article or two on Scho's big idea, at least for the meantime. As well as something or other, for the layman, on the little Chinaman of Konigsberg.

    I have to throw out the disclaimer here, that I consider myself a much more CREATIVE person (don't we all?) than anything like a LOGICAL THINKER, lol. That kind of linear process has always given me a very great deal of difficulty; my mind has a tendency to wander off into tangents of Beauty, without much consideration for the soundness of the worlds I've sometimes found myself in. So I have no doubt whatsoever that many times I've felt just completely intoxicated by something for anything BUT the reasons the author intended...

    So I will try to watch out for that, to stay focused. When I try very hard, I can usually pull off what I call "Spock mode" (otherwise known as Basic Comprehension, to most people) for relatively short periods of time. And, as I said, I intend to take this reading fairly slowly, not least because of these limitations I'm aware of.

    I would say that N probably subsumes the idea of Nihilism with that of the Superman.

    Am I right?

    edit- I just noticed... it seems like the breakdown for this doc thinks I am! lol.

  100. AntiTheist666

    Yes you are partly right, much too partly right! But who can be this Ubermensch? Don’t let yourself get distracted here with beauty. Scho writes extensively about how beauty is a release from the will. N. (and I) are interested in Power. Logic is just an essential tool in that pursuit. In TTOTI Nietzsche quite rightly describes beauty for what it is. Vanity and Ego. You’ve got that to look forward to yet though, or maybe not?

    The Aesthetic One

  101. Pysmythe

    There is nothing wrong with vanity and ego when it brings pleasure to other people!

    I have to admit, I'm not in the least interested in Power, but rather in understanding. I have a very profound distrust of Power altogether. I have never willingly sought it out, but neither have I backed away from it when it has been my responsibility to exercise it.

  102. AntiTheist666

    “There is nothing wrong with vanity and ego when it brings
    pleasure to other people!”

    Did I say anything to the contrary?!!

    “It’s much better to have a gun and not need it than it is to need a gun and not have it” (IDK)

    Substitute Power for gun.

    I’ll take all I can get thanks but probably not in the way that you think!!! ;-)

    The Powerful One

  103. Pysmythe

    Did I SAY you said anything to the contrary?!

    I was just pointing out there ISN'T anything wrong with it, not that you SAID there was.

    Uhh... Sophistry?
    (Yes, I mean on my part, lol.)

  104. AntiTheist666

    I’m not struggling to stay on topic here but do you know anything of Derrida and Deconstructionalism?

    He would ask, what did that first exclamation mark of yours mean then? And what does lolol mean? just the last two letters.

    Sophistry huh, I’ve read a book by Arthur Schopenhauer called “The Art of Controversy” It can also be translated as “The Art of Winning Arguments” It’s a fine read. There is even a section on how to win arguments when You Are Wrong! He was an expert SophistBuster and Balloon Burster! ;-) I love him!

    The Schopenhauerian One

    Edit. Thanks for all the shouting, I could barely hear you before! LOL

  105. dewflirt

    I would say this one will run its course, especially now that everyone has involved themselves in his private life. He's a young man, somehow I think that now he's not going to want the sort of relationship he has to take too seriously, once she starts in his ear , nagging about his family, giving him ultimatums, he's going to get bored. He'll stubborn it out for a while just to prove you all wrong but it won't last. It's a harsh lesson, but first loves often are. Mine left me with a baby and a 20k debt. Keep filling his pockets with condoms! You and Mrs P are good people, you wouldn't be so worried if you didn't care deeply. You know you'll be there to pick up the pieces and so does he. He's just strutting his big man stuff, when he walks into a lamppost you can rub his head better :)

  106. AntiTheist666


    Nietzsche, Philosophy, Meaning and Deep, Deep Significance.

    Re Social Domestic Issues.

    After reading your post very carefully, 2 points caught my eye.
    I believe I have a solution to your problem and more importantly Mine. Send the woman over to me immediately. I promise to love, cherish and adore her for eternity.

    The Dreaming One

  107. Pysmythe

    Well, I've made it up to #24, but please don't take a notion to quiz me too hard! I see that it wasn't for nothing that I took to Voltaire like I did; he's as clear and concise, as easy to understand, as arithmetic, but those Germans tend to be about as obscure as they come, to my way of thinking, anyway. But I'm pressing on, and just maybe it will all start to line up for me more coherently on down the line. Or, if not, hell, it may even turn into something like a VENDETTA (lol), and I've been known to use getting p*ssed off to my advantage with things like this.

  108. AntiTheist666

    Beyond good and Evil.

    Oh Voltairé Oh Humanity.

    Or words to that effect are coming later in this book or perhaps it’s the AntiChrist? :-(

    I’m also disappointed that I can’t remember for sure which book he dedicated to Voltairé? I think it’s TBOT but this dedication did not appear in later editions? Nice to see some passion in those last few lines. And even better, you’ve demonstrated a small understanding of the benefits of POWER & PASSION ;-)

    Indeed make it a Personal Vendetta or even better, Declare War against this Delicious Monster, after all, Love is War! And what do you need to win Wars?

    ”I have to admit, I'm not in the least interested in Power, but rather in understanding. I have a very profound distrust of Power altogether.”

    I’d like you to reconsider these words seriously :-(

    N. for sure would not want you to read on. And in the light of this.

    ” But I'm pressing on, and just maybe....”

    I suggest you stop and try something else.
    Before you reply, I didn’t want to say it earlier but imo you’ve got the poorest translation of the three that I know. Reg Hollingdale, my personal favourite, is in this doc! :-)

    And don’t forget! This was my Personal recommendation!
    My hope was that anyone who could get the basics of this polemical work would get everything else easily. Save Zarathustra! It’s all downhill after you’ve climbed this peak. Down Mountains of Ice Cream for the soul and with Honey to give away at the bottom :-)

    In the light of this information, Please re-read our last few posts since you made your DISTRUST of power statement. I feel you have ignored many of my questions and not even touched upon the two gigantic points I raised? I leave it up to you of course. I’m sure I can recommend something else more to your taste.

    The Evil One

  109. Pysmythe

    I AM pressing on, and that's just the way it's going to BE! The gears might grind a little bit (or a lot), but I've still got enough grease lying around to keep them from locking up entirely. And I've lived long enough to know that not everything has to somehow benefit us immediately. I might say: I'm working on putting together a Royal Flush and not a house of cards! And if I've got to work with the hand I've been dealt, I can still say this much about the human mind, that most of us have an ace or a face card long up under a leg or sleeve that we honestly weren't aware of any longer until pressed to produce them. So I expect that there will be a hand or two coming my way as the game progresses, and even if I'm destined to lose, the way I see it, I will still take away more chips from the table than I brought to it!

    No, I don't know anything about Derrida, but my first exclamation-point was just intended as a mirror of one of your own, a way of equating passion/comedy, passion/comedy, as I saw it, a bit of harmless lightheartedness disguised as mild outrage. The last two letters of "lolol" simply mean prolonged laughter, obviously, in addition to making a dull little palindrome; a sweet little Japanese anime of a word, with oversized eyes and colossal pigtails, ultimately signifying nothing.

    About that other thing, which ultimately signifies just about everything, I can't say I have much doubt that if she felt it was to her advantage to trade up, that she'd do so in a heartbeat, lol.

    Yes, you are right: We all hunger for power, because it is simply the nature of the beast. But to my mind this doesn't have to equate to a lust for dominance over other people, which is what I suppose I was getting at previously. I am not sure whether such an idea is really at the core Nietzsche or not, because I haven't gone far enough to know what HE (and not his sister!) actually had to say about it, in all of its careful details and extrapolations. I would just say that, for me, personally, I'm much more cooperative by inclination, even if I have paradoxically always been something of a loner, at least as far as other people can tell. I also view understanding as a very key component of being "powerful," without that necessarily having to mandate a course of action one way or the other. And my "desire for power" stems, for the most part, as far as I can tell, from a desire to use it to correct my own shortcomings (some of which are very, very profound, indeed), and to insure that the lives of my loved ones are as comfortable, safe and productive as seems best for them in their own minds, without allowing, for example, for others to use them in ways which they may not be considering, due to a lack of experience and intellect.

  110. AntiTheist666


    Beyond Goof and Evil

    I am so pleased you’re still pursuing these heights, though the air can be a little thin at times. Thanks for all your thoughtful answers, ALL I need to know now is...where do I send the plane ticket? I’m glad you got the understanding = Power link, good old fashioned dull and boring highly useful LOGIC. At this stage of your N. discovery I would put away all that you think that you knew of him and just read him. I’ve loads of tasty info on the Wagner’s that I think you might like but there are works that relate to this directly.

    We’ve discussed Art & Beauty briefly and I would like you think about what L’art pour L’art means in one sentence with the fewest words? Power for overcoming shortcomings sure but LOTS more surely?

    There’s no rush to get back to me, go at your OWN pace, try spark notes dot com if you need immediate help. Your last post I think had just the right emphasis and subtlety. And I’m now confident that Dear Friedrich will inspire you. I’m sorry if i was a bit brutally shouty about the power thing. Enjoy the rest of BGE. The best is yet to come. Watch the Doc AGAIN IMMEDIATELY!

    The Artful One

  111. Pysmythe

    I had planned on watching the doc again... I think I'll do that late tonight, right before curling up with the book. Also, your pointing out that it's an easier journey after this one is encouraging!

    ( I did a brief search for a free download of Hollingdale's translation, but couldn't find one. You don't happen to know where I might find it, do you, or has the copyright not expired on it? )

    edit- Yes, lots more than that, I'm sure! I'm a little st*pid, but a LOT lazy, lol.

  112. AntiTheist666

    Ask and Ye might find!

    £6.99 at iTunes?

    I would say it's worth it.

    Edit. Yes lots more comes in handy when you're laconic lounge Lizard like me! ;-)

  113. Pysmythe

    So I watched the doc again, and... alright, I think I've got it now, or at least have a pretty firm grip on it, enough for a broad outline in themes with which to "supplement" and clarify, at least in a roundabout way, the clumsiness in this particular translation (at the moment, I can't afford the other one). I have my sights set better on what to look out for in specifics, so to speak, since a lot of the generalities have been known to me for 30-odd years now. And I really have already ditched any preconceptions I might have had; I've been aware for most of this time, without having actually read him, that his sister had perverted some of his original intentions.

    I must admit, watching this again has made me pretty sad, man... It truly sucks, the profound loneliness that guy evidently had to put up with, and the toll it LOOKS like what he was trying to do may have taken upon him. Obviously, he was not the first atheist, but I take it he was the first philosopher of that stripe to attempt to FULLY erect a moral edifice deliberately to the contrary of all those crumbling cathedrals. A gutsy call for the time, to say the least, and much of humanity is still trying to catch up with him... or run away! Certainly, I think he well knew he couldn't just leave mere nihilism, understood here as meaninglessness, as a viable option for people after the death of God, but this documentary suggests he may not have been satisfied with all that he had been able to submit in its place, and that the cul-de-sac he found himself in may even have precipitated his mental illness.

    What do you think about that? Do you think it did?

  114. AntiTheist666

    Evil Beyond and Good!

    Wow, I hope you don’t mind me saying but you seem fixated with his sister? Hopefully that’s gone now? I’m glad you Felt the Sadness. This is a tragedy wot appened to Dear N. I have so much to tell you about erroneous medical diagnoses, I have read extensively on this subject and it seems @Ch H has read the same papers. I expect the news to become more mainstream soon. Perhaps we can have this disqussion when she shows her delicate dancing feat again? But in the meantime, no I don’t think that it did precipitate his insanity. But all was not perfect by a long way.

    You were right about it being a gutsy call, the Transvaluation of All Values no less. Sorry about the translation thing. I’ll do my best to guide you through the free stuff. The best of all imo comes next for you. Twilight lol. Weird that N. knew he would be recognised posthumously yet craved fame. Have you got Skype?

    The Visual One

  115. dewflirt

    Morning Sixes, you must be the sleepless one. We rabbits take lettuce for that :)

  116. AntiTheist666

    Good Morning Ariadne. Well spotted, it’s a Nietzschean self destructive thing, live dangerously and all that. Have you watched this doc or read any Dear Friedrich? And as for your dietary advice, leaf it out and lettuce alone ;-)

    The Underfed One

  117. Pysmythe

    Fixated on his sister? Why...what...whatever do you MEAN? (lol)
    Nah, not really, but... if she was a Gretchen at the Spinning Wheel, oh, you BETTER BELIEVE IT! I'd sell my soul for THAT "big German idea," yes, sir!

    I don't have skype installed, and have never used it previously, but I'm willing to give it a try, sure.

    edit- I put the "big German idea" in quotes, because I remember reading once that Nietzsche ridiculed somewhat Goethe's Faust, saying something like: "A scholar of the four disciplines seduces a little seamstress... and THIS is the great German tragic idea?" (lol)

  118. dewflirt

    I think your Dear Fred is a labyrinth I'm not prepared to fall into. I shouldn't comment 'cos' I don't know, but some people think too much. Some things just are, isn't that enough? Keep turning left for madness ;)

  119. Pysmythe

    We'll see if he lets YOU off the hook for that one, lol.

  120. dewflirt

    I'm not even taking the bait, I know what they do to fish once they land them and I'd rather keep my brains intact :)

  121. AntiTheist666

    Oh Dionysus Divine One,
    Why do you pluck my ears so?
    I find a kind of humour in your ears Ariadne,
    Why are they not a little...longer?”

    Some people think too much? I have no idea what you mean. And no it’s not enough, besides turning left is all i have left; i will disappear in an infinite loop of loony leftness soon.

    The Left One

    P.S. When I start calling Py, Cosima, is when you have to worry.

  122. AntiTheist666


    I think not, what if I dangle a Salome Carrot in front of this Tragic Donkey?(Philosopher)

    The Tempting One

  123. dewflirt

    Ok, I admit I was perhaps a tad petulant. I'm finding your conversation desperately interesting d*mn it! I just wish I knew what you were on about :/

  124. dewflirt

    I watched. I am weary of my wisdom..... Too much thinking ;)

  125. dewflirt

    Not off the hook, hooked! ;)

  126. AntiTheist666

    ”d*mn it! I just wish I knew what you were on about”

    Who does? Certainly not me, but Dammit Janet, that’s the fun part!
    (after all, FUN RULES) This is my twisted Machiavellian concept of important stuff.

    Socrates, who gets the most savage mauling by N., said that he knew nOthing?

    Existentialism. The make up your own philosophy Philosophy!

    ” d*mn it! I just wish I knew what you were on about”

    This first word of yours shows that you indeed know something and more importantly you know it with a passion! And that’s all you need to know to join our enquiry about values beyond good and evil. I would especially enjoy any contribution from you and appreciate the humour in making your Ears a little Longer my Divine Ariadne ;-)

    Agent has just got into Dear Friedrich. Please, No Fred on this thread. Why not come along for the ride?

    The Humorous One

  127. dewflirt

    I'm liking existentialism. Make it up! a safe harbour when your saying things you don't understand (as I am) it's allowed because the rules say so! On the other hand they made it sound as if he was a selfish or self indulgent man. Maybe that goes with the territory, you wont find the fluff of life in someone else's belly button. Still, I do think he liked to wallow. Pretending? Woe is he on a lonely hillside Lay ee odl lay ee odl-oo. Maybe he did crucify himself. Did his sister keep him sedated? He looked to be completely off his tetty cop swede, like he was trying to climb out of that one sound eye 0_o

  128. Pysmythe

    This is another reason I compared studying (German) philosophy to playing poker earlier. For me, anyway. Because if it ever seems I've really got ANY idea what I'm talking about, you can be sure I'm bluffing, lol.

  129. AntiTheist666

    I’m so pleased you watched it. Isn’t it Sad but Fab?

    ”I watched. I am weary of my wisdom.....”

    I’m Glad you picked up on that. But this little quote, I feel is better translated as.

    My cup overflows with wisdom; I’m tired of seeing it go waste. Dear Friedrich had so much love and wisdom to share, that’s what shagged him out.

    The Weary One

  130. dewflirt

    Not to worry Pysmythe, I'm right beside you making you look good, bluff away and I won't tell your tell. Think poker face ;)

    Only German philosophy?!

  131. Pysmythe

    MOSTLY German philosophy, all those Golden Age guys: K, H, S and M...I mean, N!

  132. AntiTheist666

    ”it's allowed because the rules say so!”

    Robust Existential Philosophy, (Not Sartre’s), tend to conform to the laws, rules of Nature.

    ” selfish or self indulgent man”

    Yes and No - BGE

    ”I do think he liked to wallow. Pretending? Woe is he on a lonely hillside Lay ee odl lay ee odl-oo. Maybe he did crucify himself.”

    LMAO... sadly he was hUMAN, All too SuperHuman?

    ” like he was trying to climb out of that one sound eye 0_o “

    This is incredibly significant!

    The VonTrapp One

  133. dewflirt

    I cheated!

  134. dewflirt

    S and N ? Sado - nihilism ?

  135. AntiTheist666

    Nice to see you extracting that screen name Agent.

    Don’t you guys get hung up about national boundaries anymore? Good Philosophy has none.

    The Boundless One

  136. Pysmythe

    I'm from Switzerland... Who the phuck is VonTrapp?!

    edit- I meant AUSTRIA, lololol. (Not up on my musicals history, somehow... Gay gene: Activate!)

  137. AntiTheist666


    You should know, Your NECK of the woods?

    Great sounding words in Philosophy: Existentialism, Phenomenology and my current favourite, the mighty Schleiermacher!

    The Continental One

  138. dewflirt

    Your enthusiasm is catching, I'm like a kid laughing at jokes I don't get. If only I could pin down a thought long enough to make something of it. What is BGE, and what do you see in that eye of his, please? :)

  139. dewflirt

    You need to deactivate the Ugg gene first, remember All of Me, Steve Martin ? ;)

  140. AntiTheist666



    It means Better get EYES!

    The Sarky One

    EDiT. BGE = Beyond good and Evil

  141. AntiTheist666

    The eye thing is likely to be the reason for his insanity and not syphilis, more to follow later on this.

    The Optical One

  142. dewflirt

    What the hey Mr Sixes! That doesn't mean anything at all, get eyes? Who's eyes? What eyes?
    I C U R 2 I's 4 ME !!!!!
    Stop tugging my ears!

  143. Pysmythe

    Isn't HE a Formula 1 driver? :)
    (I'll look it up!)
    edit- No matter, never mind.

  144. dewflirt

    Oh, myopia.

  145. Pysmythe

    DEACTIVATE the Ugg gene!? Thanks, lol!
    (Come to think of it, I haven't been hit on by any men, recently...or, well...EVER, really...That I'm AWARE of, anyhow.)

    edit- Wait...ugg, as in CAVEMAN, or something?
    You guys are phreakin' me out!

  146. dewflirt

    What, never? Don't forget, I saw your antlers and it's not possible ;)

  147. Pysmythe

    Well, I did have ONE experience when I was 23, but it didn't involve being hit on. As well as I can recall, it was more like a "birthday present," or something, lol.

  148. dewflirt

    Curiouser and Curiouser! You might as well come clean, this is almost a confessional and I promise not to tell ;)

  149. AntiTheist666

    Yes Pray Tell

    Give it a Nietzschean Philosophical flavour. With passion remember lol.
    See if you can get a mighty Schleiermacher or two in there! (This word needs saying out loud a few times to appreciate its Mighty German, Idealistic Tones.)

  150. Pysmythe

    Had to run to the market just now for the wife, and just got back... I'm not holding out on you guys, honestly, lol. If there was anything to confess other than that a close friend of mine suddenly dropped the bomb on me one night that he really wanted to give me a bj, and I LET him, I would!

    edit- I will add this, though. He and I are still close friends today, and nothing like it ever happened again, but neither do we ever talk about it. (guys, huh?) I'd just say that a one-off probably doesn't really mean anything, in case anyone out there who has had a similar experience is freaked out that maybe it does.

  151. Pysmythe

    In my post to Dewflirt, I've mustered up about as much passion regarding the "box-shaped" of the species as I can, okay? (lol)

  152. AntiTheist666

    I love Nietzsche and I couldn’t give a monkeys who cares. Man Love is ok by me. (I’M STRAIGHT)

    I love him now because he didn’t get his share while he was alive. He had to overcome crushing health, emotional and PyschoLogical problems. Yet he overcame all this Tragedy! And left us the TREASURE of his thoughts that he lavishes upon us in his writings. And it would appear that his insanity was an inevitable result of a slowly growing right-sided retro-orbital meningioma.

  153. Pysmythe

    He was a VERY brave man, that's for SURE. I think that quality probably is the one I most admire about him, even more than his academic fortitude. People don't imagine, sometimes, just what it must take in order to do something like what he did, usurping all that tradition and all of his tremendously highly regarded intellectual forebears (PLATO, et al., for Christ's sake!) in order to strike out on his own path. And one he saw as absolutely crucial for being forged, and not only for himself. To my mind, he seems the epitome of the creative-intellectual type, with more than a smattering of the "romantic tragedy" we've come to feel should accompany that type, and he has certainly had a profound influence in nearly every school of thought that has followed after him, from existentialists to beat-poets, who are all babes at his feet, in essence.

  154. dewflirt

    I'm smiling from ear to floppy ear, I see you Mr Pysmythe!!!! Nothing wrong with showing your bromantic feelings now and then, how else would you know what you like? ;)

  155. Pysmythe

    Oh, come on, now! Every now and then, what the hell is that supposed to mean? (lol)
    Any ladies we should know about, Dew? (And you'd damn well better NOT say "None you'd be interested in"!)

  156. dewflirt

    Only one, I got infatuated with her for a while. Spent a LOT of time in the hay loft 'cleaning tack' together ;)
    I'm sure you'll fill in the details for yourself!

  157. Pysmythe

    See! There you go, only ONE! Happens to just about everybody!
    (Could you elaborate on "cleaning tack" together? lol.)

    Edit- That edit came just in time, eh!?

  158. dewflirt

    Am I just tuned in to the whole ear thing or is your Dear friend a bit obsessed? All this pulling and tugging, what is it I'm missing?

  159. dewflirt

    I wonder, sometimes when I get a headache it would feel so much better if I could unscrew my ears, release the tension. He might have pulled at his own for the pain in his brain :(

  160. dewflirt

    Yep, just! ;)

  161. AntiTheist666

    Good Day all Nietzsche Fans

    For me it’s Break Fast!

    “Bright daylight; breakfast; the return of common sense and of cheerfulness, Plato blushes for shame and all free spirits kick up a shindy.”

    From Twilight of the Idols – How to Philosophize with the Hammer.

    Who’s got the right tack here?

    The Equine One

  162. AntiTheist666

    Am I just tuned in to the whole ear thing or is your Dear friend a bit obsessed? All this pulling and tugging, what is it I'm missing?

    Please be specific and I will do my best to explain.

  163. dewflirt

    "On earth there is nothing greater than I: it is I who am the regulating finger of God"— thus roareth the monster. And not only the long-eared and short-sighted fall upon their knees!
    Ah! even in your ears, ye great souls, it whispereth its gloomy lies!

    To be sure, thou wouldst call it by name and caress it; thou wouldst pull its ears and amuse thyself with it (virtue)

    I know there was at least one more but I was getting travel sick scrolling back :)

  164. dewflirt

    Waiting for your blush-worthy story ;)

  165. AntiTheist666

    ”On Earth There is no Greater than I:” Etc.

    Diving into the dizzying heights of Zarathustra should not be attempted before a few splashes in the Shallow end.

    Allow me to Condense it, Severely.

    I am now God. Previous Dogs were blind and deaf. Thus they lied!
    References to eyes and ears refer to people not seeing or hearing, yet still building idols (ideals) and worshiping (caressing) them.

    N. teases Ariadne because she had small ears.

    Not like yours O Divine One ;-)

    I hope this helped. What N. have you read?

    The Nosy One

    Edit. Don't get comfy in those Chairs of Virtue!

  166. dewflirt

    And mine to you, also won't let me post. Error!!! ;)

  167. dewflirt

    Are we allowed to give email addresses? I have lots for different things, I would give you and Mr P one if I was. If you wanted. Wouldn't be offended if you said no, privacy and all that :)
    Edit, comment policy says no, so no!

  168. AntiTheist666


    Nietzsche huh, a poor lost soul if ever there was one. Have you got to – “Of Old and New Tables yet"? It’s up there with his best stuff. It’s about breaking/ smashing old laws and rebuilding new ones. Technically, I will break no law here. I’m going to be really busy over the next couple of days but I will be back. In the Mean Time.


    The Naughty One

  169. dewflirt

    Delete yourself! ;)

  170. dewflirt

    As yet woman is not capable of friendship: women are still cats and birds. Or at best, cows
    This affair might end sooner than expected! :)

  171. AntiTheist666

    Good Points! Lol

    Animalistic, I like it. Nietzsche’s views on women are amongst his worst howlers! You have to take them with a pinch of salt and not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Btw I loved... Bromantic!

    The Bovine One

    Edit. Talking of Monsters! you scared me earlier, Boo to you too!

  172. dewflirt

    But his one true love ran away with his friend, it must have been the moustache that sent her packing. It's a bit of a monster :#

  173. dewflirt

    ''your jealous soul shall love no one, except the friend"
    Poor friend, bearing all the love while we fluffy creatures (women) frolic unbothered ;)

  174. AntiTheist666

    “The quick-scut, the dew-flirt,
    the grass-biter, the goibert,
    the home-late, the do-the-dirt.”

    A wonderful poem.

    You Hair Raising thing.

    Fluffy Creatures, how much did dear Friedrich need a frolic with one of those?

    The Leporidaen One

    I’m Haring Off now.

  175. AntiTheist666

    On Nietzsche and the Social Sciences. (My bag, of the hand variety. SS to others?)

    It’s a Mad World and I’m not lolling!

    Whoo Hooo, I’m Late (lol posthumous) for a very Important date.
    I’m having a Mad Hare Day.
    Gotta get my gladrags on yet and they’ve got to match my handbag! Where’s my Hat?

    What’s so important tonight? Passion of course. I’m off to see a local Pink Floyd tribute band.... Can you guess their name?
    Nietzsche claimed he was Dynamite! Bang! I’m gone. Off to the Dark Side of the Moon.

    The Pink One

    The name of the Band......Pinc Floyd.... Fab or what?

  176. dewflirt

    Now is not the time to take a leaf from your Dear friends book, DO NOT MILK THE LADY!!!! She will not appreciate it! Ignite her, have fun!

  177. AntiTheist666

    On Nietzsche and the Domestic Sciences! Lol

    I think he would have said, Don’t try to eat a cooked meal while getting dressed. (Dohhhh)

    I’m trying to give your emphasis due care and attention but I’m not SURE what you mean? A ref. to MR. Sand perhaps? If you’re telling me not to drink tooooo much, I’m a lightweight so no problem there. And as for the ladies, my love life is more tragic and empty than Nietzsche’s!

    Anyway, the blue touch paper has been lit, Ignition will follow shortly. Thanks for the inspiring words ;-)

    The Exited One

  178. dewflirt

    She's not a cow, or a goose for that matter, but I guess you're no angel either. Run, you're late!!!

  179. AntiTheist666

    or a French speaking Peacock? Late, thank god I'm a Time Lord!

  180. AntiTheist666

    Nietzsche, Nietzsche, God Dammit Nietzsche!

    Nietzsche on Instinct, Emotion and Passion Etc!

    Oh what a night, Late Ju une two thousand and twelve,
    What a very special time for me, as I remember, WHAT a night!
    Pinc Floyd? I could try and tell you how good they were but that would be futile so I won’t bother! Suffice is to say that, IF they were any better, they would be Floyd!

    I got madly exited just listening to them TUNE up. Dear Friedrich would have been Proud. There was even some dreaded dad dancing going on! (Guilty) I hope that those who choose to live life dangerously...also do it passionately... and I don’t believe there is a better vehicle to get there than good Music! Zarathustra said that people should dance at least once a day. And he was a very Wise Man.

    Oh dear brothers and sisters those animal instincts are rarely wrong and when the music takes you...Please......get up and Dance!

    The Dancing One

    P.S. Btw Loads of surreal sh1t happened as well. Ceramic Turtles, almost life sized, coiled round like a strand of DNA, as a Sun Shade? Weird? Dali would have loved it?

    The Squiffed One

    Edit. Oh, and of course, there was this strange looking, floating Pig?

  181. Pysmythe

    I figured you must be a little tipsy to be bringing THE FOUR SEASONS into this, lol. They go well with anything Floyd about as well as steak does with bananas.
    Shine on, you crazy diamond!

  182. AntiTheist666

    At Agent.

    Yes Man,

    It’s the season to be JOLLY tra la la lah... lah blah de blah!
    What would the Pencil say to this to this crazy Diamond? Seen as they’re both made of the same thing? Don’t Right just yet, let me know when you know! You Know ;-) What would Nietzsche say? No Non Muso himself? Forgive me, I’m Rough!

    The Carbon One

    Edit. Hmm I'm peckish?
    Double edit. What's wrong with Stake and Banana's?
    Triple treble edit. The Four Seasons is the the name of a Pizza around here. Hmmmmm Pizza!

  183. Pysmythe

    "It took time and pressure to make you so hard, and yet I can open you up with only a few words!" (?)

    That's the best I can come up with...

  184. AntiTheist666

    I don’t know who the quote is from? Enlighten me tomoz. Morpheus is calling? I must o bay!

    I’ll retire singing Nietzsche’s “Hymn to Life”. I would appreciate your opinion of this PEACE!
    Wtf is Ethnic Hell??? FYI my favourite Classical Peace of all time is the 1812. It leaves just after 6 here most days. They also say that it changes when Sun goes down, a Round Ear!

    The Arctic One

  185. Pysmythe

    Sorry for the above edit that screws up some of your reply, but I didn't want to leave that up there, since I think it would make me look a little vain, or something, lol. (Not that vanity has anything to do with why I'd be concerned about something like that!)

    Could you please edit yours accordingly?

  186. AntiTheist666

    “Vanity, vanity, all is vanity” from Ecclesiastes.

    Nietzsche, as very young man, (I’m not sure if he ever was a boy) loved the Bible. He knew it inside out; he would read to people with such feeling as to move them to tears. In the light of all this talk about vanity, I would like to suggest a song for Oh dear, dear Friedrich.

    You’re So Vein by Carly Simon?

    The BloodThirsty One

  187. AntiTheist666

    ”The starer, the wood-cat,
    the purblind, the furze cat,
    the skulker, the bleary-eyed,
    the wall-eyed, the glance-aside
    and also the hedge-springer.”

    Nietzsche On Women... Oh dear i fear trouble here!

    Don’t forget thy whip! Was he right?

    What does the milk lady ref mean? dew-hammer, dew-hopper ;-)

    The Scorched One

  188. dewflirt

    ''The warrior does not like fruits which are too sweet. Therefore he likes woman;- bitter is even the sweetest woman''

    With an attitude like that? Am I supposed to be flattered? Woman enough for a warrior ! What about warrior enough for a woman? Has he no taste for sweetness? Too weak for a gentle woman, as if one might hurt him he makes us a thing to fight against. He looks for the animal in us, the wolf in sheep's clothing. Use the whip all you like but you'll only earn yourself a tongue lashing and an empty bed. In the end he whipped himself, and we'll deserved!
    So yeah, probably he was right ;)

  189. AntiTheist666

    Well alright then!

    War it is!

    Just kidding, I value MY skin too highly to use the whip. Besides I’m far too subtle to need that KIND of crudity!

    So you’ve given N. a severe Lashing.

    ”The snuff-the-ground, the baldy skull,
    (his chief name is scoundrel!)”

    What about Schopenhauer’s views on Women?
    Re Dissimulation, Intelligence, Love etc.

    As an aside, what about them not answering questions. HINT. Check this thread for HARD EVIDENCE of this!!!

    I see also, with regard to N. you forgot your pinch of Salt and the Baby!

    The Salty One

  190. dewflirt

    You bugger! Right, Shopenhauer it is then!
    And no, I didn't forget to salt the baby before roasting. You forgot the salt when reading me, or am I so bitter there is no sweetening?
    The ill met ;)

  191. AntiTheist666


    Never the twain shall meat!

    No, I’m just teasing, I know you got it.

    What about the bleedin questions bugger lugs! Or is Dear Arthur RIGHT!

    The sweetest kind of lugs though!

  192. dewflirt

    What do you want answered, I see I missed quite a few :/
    As for Shopenhauer, On Women. Why bother wasting his ink on us when he would clearly much rather be 'on man'
    All these men must have had hard mothers ;)

  193. AntiTheist666

    What N. Have you read?
    “Milk Lady”? Is my question a bit of a boob?
    How does one ignite her? Flames of Passion?
    What are you doing later?
    Dissimulation, Intelligence, Love as in Warfair?

    Schopenhauer’s and Nietzsche’s Mothers play a Major roles in their lives, not all for the right reasons. I know a fair bit about both including some juicy stuff!
    Before we get there though any thoughts on the Lou Andreas Fault Line?

    The WarLike One

  194. dewflirt

    Dissimulation. A bit right. We need to.
    Intelligence. Wrong, he was just to stupid to see how we supersede.
    Love. I need to think. No polygamy though. I want nothing less than total devotion and proof of it. ;)

  195. dewflirt

    I've read bits of this and that, never a whole of anything. Like I said I'm playing catch up with you boys. Shouldn't take long though,I'm nimble minded enough and you old fellows are starting to slow ;)
    Your dear friend says that at best, women are like cows. Don't milk the lady ;)
    Ignite her. That depends on the lady but it's mostly a matter of saying Yes or No in the right places, which can sometimes mean the wrong places ;)
    Later ? I'll keep that under my hat ;)
    Love in warfare, sweat and leather. Aren't they one and the same? ;)

  196. dewflirt

    You can't ask a woman about another woman, you'll always get a guarded answer no matter how much they 'like' each other. Better to ask Pysmythe, he's good with the ladies ;)

  197. AntiTheist666

    Nietzsche on Love. The Tension of the Apollonian and the Dionysian.

    Dionysus loved Ariadne.

    Nietzsche had zilcho experience in the Love Game(War)

    Proof you ask?

    That’s a tricky one? How does one prove something to a Goddess?

    Let me try,

    First, I would offer the pound of flesh closest to my heart.
    Second, Then I would Pledge Unswerving, Undiminishing, and Undying Life Furthering Love. For Eternity, Deep Deep, Eternity.
    Third, I would throw myself at her feet and hope for the best, sneaking a quick kiss at the ankles while I was there ;-)
    Fourth, I would Whip out my credentials.....That clearly state that I am STRICTLY monogamous!!!! (Ala “True Romance”) I know what love means even if no one else does!
    Fifth, I might try a little bribery and corruption.
    And if that all failed, I might have to rely on the old clincher, I would just look this Goddess in the eye and say “ I Love You Ariadne, if you need any further proof it’s over!”

    What say you? Anything proved here? That Women don’t answer direct questions has obviously been proved!

    The Truthful One

  198. dewflirt

    Apollo v Dionysus, is this about taking the rough with the smooth? This suddenly becomes a tangle. Literally soft apollo and a brutish Dionysus? Or is this about finding the balance?
    1. What? Only the flesh closest to your heart?
    2. See 1. Then 2. Is overkill ;)
    3. Not bad! If you can throw yourself on the floor subtly.
    4. As long as she thinks you are monogamous only because of her
    5. No bribery and corruption, but I do like the last bit.
    I might get gagged by a feminist for that!
    Not proof enough though, it's an ongoing thing ;)
    Direct enough? :)

  199. dewflirt

    I guess he did love her, he rescued her which is sweet but I have to say she switched affections in a heartbeat. Fickle lady. Funny to think her in need of rescue when she'd just helped kill her brother and done a moonlight flit. They suit each other, excessive in their own ways. Maybe he wanted a bawdy barmaid, one with knuckle dusters and cr*p judgement ;)

  200. AntiTheist666

    Yes it’s all about the balance but not in a golden mean sense. It’s more about the fine mixture of the two and when to use these qualities.

    Goddess!!! You’re Hard to Please!

    Yes that was direct enough. But you FAILED to even ANSWER the most important question! You just put it under your hat!
    I have a question for dear Friedrich? What’s the point of waging a War that cannot be won?

  201. Pysmythe

    I'm just a spectator here today, covered in grass blades and sweat...
    You guys keep going, it's fascinating!

  202. AntiTheist666

    Yeah Greek Myth. Strange tales indeed. This is why Dionysus wanted to make her ears longer. (Ala hear more, listen more, be wiser.)
    I shudder to think what Fred’s particular penchant in the Ladies dept. might be. But I will say this for him; I’ve always found that making up after a barnstorming row leads to..... shall we say....Passionate Embraces?

  203. dewflirt

    Shake yourself down, get a cold drink and come and play :)

  204. dewflirt

    I think I sent a comment the wrong way! Sorry :)
    His ex lady looked like a stern faced tomboy, but then she was as flighty as a flighty thing, marriage - no then yes then strings of affairs. What drew them to her. Moths to the flame! :)

  205. AntiTheist666

    The Twilight of the Idols
    How to Philosophize with the Hammer.


    "Why so hard?" the kitchen coal once said to the diamond. "After all, are we not close kin?"
    Why so soft? O my brothers, thus I ask you: are you not after all my brothers?
    Why so soft, so pliant and yielding? Why is there so much denial, self-denial, in your hearts? So little destiny in your eyes?
    And if you do not want to be destinies and inexorable ones, how can you one day triumph with me?
    And if your hardness does not wish to flash and cut through, how can you one day create with me?
    For all creators are hard. And it must seem blessedness to you to impress your hand on millennia as on wax.
    Blessedness to write on the will of millennia as on bronze — harder than bronze, nobler than bronze. Only the noblest is altogether hard.
    This new tablet, O my brothers, I place over you: Become hard!
    — Zarathustra, III: On Old and New Tablets, 29.

    This is the last page of Twilight of the Idols (Ideals)

    The Hard One

  206. Pysmythe

    It really IS magnificent, isn't it? It reminds me of Shelley's lines about poets being the unacknowledged legislators of the world. We're human beings, flawed and mortal, addicted to language, and social; if we don't have words like these, how on earth can we be expected to go on?

  207. AntiTheist666

    You got that right. I have strange feeling that good poetry will be the longest surviving memes.

    Philosophy, Psychology and Poetry what a meme pool! This may lead to streams of memes becoming rivers of Dreams.

  208. AntiTheist666

    On becoming hard?

    I'm off, back to the scene of last night’s crime. I’m mad as well as hard? No L.L hmm

  209. Pysmythe

    Hath not Homer's wine red sea, if imagination be more important than knowledge, hurled up a Newton onto the shores of Olympus?


  210. dewflirt

    You're going to have to explain please!?! In detail! :)

  211. Pysmythe

    If imagination, intended to be represented here as "Homer's sea," is more important than knowledge, then what Newton achieved can be said to have come from it. Or, as his descendent in this sense, Newton has been hurled onto history's pages by daring to swim in the same sea as the great Greek poet once did.

    Imagination is more important than knowledge. -Einstein

    edit- A convoluted way of saying that some of the brightest boys and girls think outside the box, but that whatever box they find themselves in is inevitably largely comprised of saltwater, lol.

    edit/edit- And none of it having anything to do, except very, very tangentially, with Sixes comment... ( I hope he's not too peeved! )

  212. dewflirt

    Haha, let's throw them a life ring then, one made purely of imagination!

  213. Pysmythe

    I guess my money would be on Homer, in a case like that, lol. Poor old Isaac would probably be trying to calculus his way out of it (atop his stack of facts!), while Homer simply makes the Sirens change their tune!

  214. AntiTheist666


    Hath not Homer's wine red sea, if imagination be more important than knowledge, hurled up a Newton onto the shores of Olympus?

    Wow, I Love it. Keep it coming. I was only thinking of the Odyssey yesterday and how I’ve had a series of challenges this last year, haven’t we all?


    ”Haha, let's throw them a life ring then, one made purely of imagination!”

    Lol solipsism rules the waves, I know that Neptune!

  215. dewflirt

    We've gone from tugging ears to plugging ears! Maybe we ought to tie old Isaac to his stack, if we lost him we wouldn't have gravity. Just levity .....:)

  216. AntiTheist666

    Look up the Birth of Dionysus, I’m still not sure what to make of it? Weird even by Greek Myth standards.

  217. dewflirt

    I think I forgot to pass post:/ at the risk of doubling up I'll try again. Yuk! Born from your dads leg, gross in so many ways :/ he was seeded in a mortal woman, maybe his dad wanted him to be more like himself :)

  218. AntiTheist666

    ”Hath not Homer's wine red sea, if imagination be more important than knowledge, hurled up a Newton onto the shores of Olympus?”

    ”streams of memes becoming rivers of Dreams.”

    These rivers of dreams reach seas of extra meme at ease, that finally deKant in Ithaca?

  219. dewflirt

    I can't answer for your Dear Friend. The fun is in the fight. Who wants to win, what then? Scrabble? ;)
    Edit. Or monopoly?

  220. AntiTheist666

    “The fun is in the fight. Who wants to win...”

    FUN Right! Isn’t this rule 1.

    Who wants to win? Well who do YOU think wants to win and even more importantly what is winning? For me it could be Glorious defeat in a Magnificent War.

    “Supposing Truth be Woman, what then? Insomuch as she has never allowed herself to be Won.”

    Paraphrased from the preface of BGE. Friedrich NIETZSCHE!

    Scrabble and Monopoly fine. As long as I can bring Risk and ClueDoh!

    The Game One

  221. dewflirt

    I'll let you know, back in an hour ish :)

  222. dewflirt

    If truth be woman, truth must have her values? Would that make woman something to strive to emulate? Women are always right! ;)
    On winning, hmm. The fight is the win, engaged in battle.
    Poor N, confounded women!!!!

    ''In a friend one shall have one's best enemy. You shall be closest to him with your heart when you withstand him''

  223. dewflirt

    Hey hold on, does this mean that the worse she treated him the more he loved her? Treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen!
    Is there truth in your ultimate enemy, your 'true' love? :)

  224. AntiTheist666

    Nietzsche on the Transvaluation of All Values.

    On Love and Hate?

    ''In a friend one shall have one's best enemy. You shall be closest to him with your heart when you withstand him''

    When you really, really get this and it seems you do. One realizes that there is no finer expression of Love than FriendShip.

    “Hey hold on, does this mean that the worse she treated him the more he loved her? Treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen!
    Is there truth in your ultimate enemy, your 'true' love?”

    Well done Bunny!!
    Do you see yourself up there (eyes and ears maybe?)

    I love to see the evolution of revolutionary ideas and YOU are indeed quick on your PAWS!

    The Hateful One

  225. dewflirt

    Why do I feel there's a 'but' here somewhere? Don't know where I see myself, think I might be staring into that eye of his, trying to see what was going on in his head.
    Me and N, it's a love hate thing ;)

  226. Philio

    Looks like I missed some fun.

    I took some deference to one a statement made by a commentator within the doc, that he was obviously insane and her reference to his signature as Dionysius, et al and so the pen began to move.

    Nietzsche ventured where many fear to go or simply won’t go. It’s a path where many have cautioned, do not tread but if you do tread lightly your sanity is at risk. He did not yield to fear. (as a note, I consider all thinkers Philosophers, some talented, others not, all are of some interest.) As you aptly state, “anti-theism is myth-understood”.

    Of those influenced by him, one who did tread lightly was Freud halted by his own psychosis yet managed to produce insights applicable to his field. One who did not tread lightly was Jung but questioned in fear his own sanity. Jung withheld his “Libre Novus” from public scrutiny for fear of opinion and rejection within his profession. I believe he did so to protect his contributions. Nietzsche did not. Where any the rantings of mad men? I don’t believe so.

    The shame is that Nietzsche was unable to complete his final Opus. Not through fear and I’m sure there was, deep fear, but due to reduced faculties. I find no improper use of penning himself as Dionysius or the Crucified One. He did tear apart the living, metaphorically throwing off the bonds of the “ubermensch”, the societal and individual puppeteers or the dissolution of the ego. He “cast down strongholds and imaginations and spiritual wickedness in high places”. In doing so he did suffer being “despised and rejected by men”, his peers and “spitefully used” by his blood, close and national, nothing new there.

    The tragedy of not completing his final work was that the freedom his work provided was and still is treated as license due to lack of understanding. My hope for him would be that even within his encumbered state, he was still able to dance.

    “What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not an end: what can be loved in man is that he is and overture and a going under…” (The resolution or dissolution of opposites?)

    “Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.” Fredrick Nietzsche

    “I hear a Voice you cannot hear, that says I must not stay, I see a Hand you cannot see, that beckons me away.”
    The Life of William Blake vol. 1 page 174
    A letter tom Mr. Butts

  227. AntiTheist666


    I’m so glad you could join us. I hope you had a most enjoyable time with your RRR’s the other night ;-)

    Your excellent post has lots of juicy stuff that I’d like to chat further about but tonight I’ll be away with the mixer soon. (brown stuff)

    Some quick points:-

    Most Philosophers are of some interest. Tick

    Freud. Tick but I’d like to Flesh this one out a bit te.

    Final Opus. Tick, what a Tragedy, who will come to save the day?

    Some Fab (word of the weak, I’ve spent some time in 60’s these last few days) quotes and I love Blake.

    I hope we can continue this.......soon. For now I have to dash –

    Best Regards

    The Becoming One

  228. AntiTheist666


    “Why do I feel there's a 'but' here somewhere?

    I don’t know? Lack of confidence? Unusual Surety?

    But there are No “buts” here, You got it. Simple Az

    “Me and N, it's a love hate thing ;)”

    I’ll make a wager with you? After reading his works, letters and latest medical evidence, I doubt very much there will be ANY hate in your heart for Dear Dear Friedrich. Bet you a Shilling.

    The Extravagant One

  229. AntiTheist666


    Some idol thoughts.

    Where do I begin? Da da da de da Let’s start at the very beginning; it’s a very good ssssscrrreeeeecchhh!

    Soz, it must be the mountain air?

    I’m interested in your def of deference and if that is what you meant? Those dizzying and dangerous paths you speak of need Giants like N. to Forge the path ahead. And he was Right when he said that we would be echoes in his FOOTSTEPS, FOOTSTEPS, footsteps. Lol so far though we are not marking time BN and AN. It may come yet, IF there is any Justice in the World.

    Freud. Yes I “know” (I’m not sure what Knowing is any more, can you help hear? Ears behind your ears etc.) I am especially interested in how Freud quizzed Lou Andreas Salomé and what conclusions if any he drew. I agree with you on Jung. N’s Noble Blood was transfused wisely and poorly. I don’t know if you know any Piaget? I read him before Freud and hold him dearer to me than Sigmund.

    I don’t know where you want to go with Blake? Thank the Lamb that there’s that much of it. I go back to Ancient Times with him and still read his Poetry today. And delightfully i think that any talk of him is on topic. Was William Beyond good and evil?

    The RedBreasted One

    Edit. Any thoughts on Spinoza?

  230. Philio

    Deference, oops? It seems the sentence is missing a word, a negative, no deference is the phrase. I know I thought it. I remember there being two choices, one word or two, umbrage or no deference. I chose the latter but typed it as the former. Keep an eye out for things like that. It’s happening more often.

    I’m drawn to the places where science refuses go, where theologians fear to go and the mystics do when not restrained and yet I remain a skeptical pragmatist. Certain concepts require personal exploration. Some philosophers meet those criteria. Nietzsche is one of them and the prime example.

    His times in the solitude of nature (I’m convinced) were spent deep within probing the unconscious. Thus Spoke Zarathustra has the touch and feel (in my opinion) strikingly similar to Jung’s “Seven Sermons to the Dead” and much of the dialogue in his “Red Book”. Jung spoke on Nietzsche’s influence on him and Freud denied such influence.

    (I’m probably going to ramble a bit as I muse.) It seems both Nietzsche & Jung were able to link in prose and story from the content of their unconscious as though in a dialogue with others. That is an art, maintaining and linking naturally occurring altered states. (Jung also uses art as an aid.) I became more interested in method than personalities. (German egos, arrogance and jealousy laced with the proper civility of the time and no civility at all. What a mix.) How much of the lives of these people were spent in mountain solitude? I know this place and know it well.

    The above paragraph is in part an answer concerning your knowing and hearing questions.

    I pondered once the idea that Andreas-Salomé, Rée and Nietzsche where written into Thomas Mann’s “The Magic Mountain” until realizing that a Bohemian life style was not uncommon and Mann needn’t go farther than a mirror for an example. Nothing is new. The boundaries today have just had their limits extended. But my interest was elsewhere.

    I only touched on Piaget briefly. My interests were again in a different area. I’ve left Sigmund a way back finding his theories dealing with the unconscious limited. Then on to Blake, Oh yes he was beyond good and evil. I visit him only occasionally. It’s usually when a thought or situation causes a phrase or two of his to appear out of the fog.

    And yes there are footsteps to follow and paths to wander, in solitude for a time and in the return for an exchange. Then repeat, learn how, do and become as each barrier evaporates.

    How new is any of this? Here is a bit of something dug up in the desert from long ago.

    Why then have you hated me, you Greeks?
    Because I am a barbarian among the barbarians?
    For I am the wisdom of the Greeks
    and the knowledge of the barbarians.
    I am the judgement of the Greeks and of the barbarians.
    I am the one whose image is great in Egypt
    and the one who has no image among the barbarians.
    I am the one who has been hated everywhere
    and who has been loved everywhere.
    I am the one whom they call Life,
    and you have called Death.
    I am the one whom they call Law,
    and you have called Lawlessness.
    I am the one whom you have pursued,
    and I am the one whom you have seized.
    I am the one whom you have scattered,
    and you have gathered me together.
    I am the one before whom you have been ashamed,
    and you have been shameless to me.
    I am she who does not keep festival,
    and I am she whose festivals are many.

  231. AntiTheist666


    Hey Phil.

    Thanks for your reply. Please have no worries regarding rambling muses or other Thoughts out of Season. I often accidently go off Piste and sometimes do so....for other reasons. Superman in his Fortress of Solitude? Well...I think that I would go nuts very quickly; my thoughts are far too Dangerous to keep to myself for long. Discerning Philosophers would be Nihilists if they could be said N. What is left when you wipe away all of HumanKind and then turn this insight on yourself, the self, the idée fixe and realise it to is Morality and Ego. When I grapple with this I get so frustrated that my thoughts and expressions are Bonded to Language and Gramma. (Aaaaarrrghhhhh!!!) Do I have to invent a new language as well?

    German Ego and Arrogance as answer to what knowing is, lol ;-) Yep, Sapere Aude. I’ve even defended a priori knowledge before now, how much ego and arrog is in involved in that! Opium anyone?
    Yes the similarities between Jung’s Seven Sermons and TSZ are Striking though I’m not too surprised. I see Nietzsche’s Style as well as his ideas echo everywhere, even in Richard Dawkins, this could be just my Evil Eye though.

    On Dug Up Things. Lol. The fickle finger of destiny and Amor Fati. The Nag Hammadi? The devil himself (robertallen1) directed me there a little while ago, it’s beautiful. What do you make of the partial translation of the Republic found with it?
    In saying Yea and Amen I leave you with the first of dear Friedrich’s Seven Seals. Until the next time, Travel well my Daring Friend.

    The Dumb One

    “IF I be a diviner and full of the divining spirit which wandereth on high mountain-ridges, 'twixt two seas,—
    Wandereth 'twixt the past and the future as a heavy cloud—hostile to sultry plains, and to all that is weary and can neither die nor live:
    Ready for lightning in its dark bosom, and for the redeeming flash of light, charged with lightnings which say Yea! which laugh Yea! ready for divining flashes of lightning:—
    —Blessed, however, is he who is thus charged! And verily, long must he hang like a heavy tempest on the mountain, who shall one day kindle the light of the future!—
    Oh, how could I not be ardent for Eternity and for the marriage-ring of rings—the ring of the return?
    Never yet have I found the woman by whom I should like to have children, unless it be this woman whom I love: for I love thee, O Eternity!
    For I love thee, O Eternity!”

    From Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

  232. Philio

    When I site an example I (often but not always) ensure that the example is easily found, i.e. ‘a Google search’.

    You might get a kick out of a line of thought in an article in Scientific American circa 1995. The article is “The Puzzle of Conscious Experience” by David J. Chalmers. It is in response to another by Francis Crick and Christof Koch, “The Problem of Consciousness”. Though it was published in 1997, the information discussed is much prior the article.

    Chalmers posits the idea of a missing element in the “Theory of Everything”. He gives it the name “high-level or primary psychophysical laws” and describes them as “high level bridging laws” “connecting the physical processes to experience at every day levels”. He explains it as a “bridge that will cross the explanatory gap”. The article sites an example, “Dancing Quala in a Synthetic Brain” and mentions Frank Jackson’s tale of the 23rd century color blind genius neuroscientist Mary.

    The terms “bridging laws” immediately projected Nietzsche’s “What is great in man” ejaculation and his “midday” experiences.

    Here as in the case of most if not every Nietzsche commentator one is left to question whether or not the commentators or the articles author have ever experienced “midday”? There are also echoes of Blake’s “Marriage of Heaven and Hell”, esp. the voice of the devil. Does a sane mind connect these?

  233. AntiTheist666


    Thank you so much for your kind and considerate words. (Did you hear my pain?) My Ears have been Pricked!! < Bunny Ears....getting longer all the time. Lol

    Re: - Francis Crick and Christof Koch, “The Problem of Consciousness”

    I’m going to start here. Christ of Koch LOL.

    I’ve found by them “Towards a neurobiological theory of consciousness” from The Neurosciences, Vol 2, 1990: PP 263 – 275
    Looks interesting? Though I’m not really a big fan of neurobiology or neurosciences? The basics do just fine for me.
    “The Problem of Consciousness” is available as an eBook £3.75 I don’t mind paying... It just needs a very High recommendation to devote my blood for something that I don’t feel I learnt a great deal from in my last Diggings here. Re Consciousness? Do you know Dan Dennett’s anecdote about this? Lol.


    Scientific American circa 1995. The article is “The Puzzle of Conscious Experience” by David J. Chalmers.

    Yes, got that. Even the cover looks fab! Saying this I have quite a bit on my plate right now but I will read it all if you say the Prob of Conc is that good?

    Bridging Laws and Mad Dogs in the Midday Sun ;-) No probs here and I’m almost an Englishman, I’m Welsh technically. Wear r u from? In case of sunburn take a Dive into the Glorious NoonTide.


    “There are also echoes of Blake’s “Marriage of Heaven and Hell”, esp. the voice of the devil. Does a sane mind connect these?”

    You’ll have to tell me what a sane mind is first? I hope you don’t mind me asking for a second time do you have any thoughts on Noble Spinoza?

    With all this talk of Nobility I leave you with a quote from the most Noble of them all (imho).

    “Madness is the result not of uncertainty but of certainty”

    The Uncertain? One

  234. Philio

    Everyone (rationalist reductionists and others) nibbles around the edges. They dip their toes into the ocean but never take the plunge. (Sanity is not doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.) (Poe and “The Tell Tail Heart”…. Would a sane man…..Yet they do.) What is irony? Do you think anyone realizes the difference between atheist and anti-theist???

    I’m a mix, almost Welsh. Great grandfather emigrated from Wales (through England) to the USA but somewhere an Irish ancestor emigrated from Ireland to mine coal in Wales, Swansea. His son’s better half was a Lyons (a Lyons from county Cork??) The other half of the heritage is Russki (Orthodox of course). I would say a well stirred Celt. Try that for a mix in instruction (states of mind) and holidays, two in each season every year, the same and yet different.

    Spinoza, the blessed excommunicate, I would hope for such an epitaph. There is no good and evil in nature – that takes a human mind. (Agree) Determinism – agree in following vein (I hope these posts correctly):

    1. I myself ? The content of the currently active transparent self-model.
    2. Am seeing this object ? The content of a transparent object-representation and I am seeing it…
    3. Right now ? as an element within a virtual window of presence.
    4. With my own eyes ? The simple story of direct sensory perception, this sufficed for the evolutionary purposes of the brain.

    And one step further: And it’s ONLY A SIMPLE STORY THE BRAIN TELLS ITSELF about direct sensory perception which sufficed for the evolutionary purposes of the brain. IN THE NOW, I KNOW THIS EXPERIENTIALLY.

    In reference to deity (disagree) It is obvious that there is a cause, not impersonal but transparently shared and cooperative (knowing or unknowing agreement, like a universal translator, the universal unconscious seeping into the universal conscious and disrupting the balance of properties to manifest experience in all through all. The illusion is the impersonal, the aloneness within multitudes of dependences and then is in effect abstract. (A poor attempt at a description of the indescribable).

    Does any of this translate?

    My first encounter with unseen mirrored properties (potentials) interacting with a neutral property came at age five. I stuck a pair of scissors in one side of an electric outlet. It wouldn’t have mattered which side of the outlet, I as a neutral in an act of will disturbed the balance. That disturbance caused me to be a ground in reference to either. That was the beginning of a career.

    I tend to see things as a simple equation. Manifestation = (negative property) * (positive property) and the cause of manifestation can be random occurrence [between active opposites] or a willful act that disturbs the natural balance, “midday”.

    It’s a shame this revelry is only betwixt two. Are there none other? (If this keeps up I’ll get poetic and I’m not a good poet).

  235. AntiTheist666

    Nietzsche as Poet. Joyful Wisdom or Gay Science? The Poet, like the Philosopher stands before the World and all Humanity and tries to translate his observations to the Page. If insanity is doing the same thing over and over again why not make a Song and Dance about it? Even Schopenhauer played the flute in evening before retiring to his bed that had a Pistol under the pillow.

    On Big TOE Dipping. I don’t of course mean just the toe here; I mean everything, just a theory of. Metaphysics and Meta-ethics? How does one express themselves meaningfully here with all the errors of Language and Logos built in? How does one, and is it necessary to throw everything off to start again? (I usually start screaming here, but today I’m going to resist that particular stimulus.) Maybe I’ll just wax Lyrical and Muse for a while...waiting for the pen to mauve.

    Thanks for the ancestry, well stirred Celts, perhaps we’re related, scratch that, of course we are. I have a considerable amount of Dutch blood in my family as well, which nicely segues to Noble Spinoza. “The Blessed Excommunicate” I really like that, I may well steel it. This Great Doc as I’m sure you know is one of three looking at the Founding Fathers of Existentialism; I mostly agree but would definitely include Spinoza and Kierkegaard as the Grand Daddies? Perhaps we could expand this line of discourse over at “The Great Philosophers: An Introduction to Western Philosophy” where I’ve started a rather long anecdote about Spinoza, I tried to get robertallen1 interested in Philosophy but failed miserably. (Ha ha, thank god)

    Your 5 step example of Evolution in Brain activity and subtle lesson in Epistemology was well translated and much appreciated but can you really Know that you are “thinking” at this moment?

    Deity or Deities, Turtles or Elephants, I will stick my NECK out here and just say no! Seeing beyond and describing what’s behind the veil of Maya is no easy task and your description was far from poor. Trying to describe the indescribable may seem like an impossible task but we should never stop trying if we don’t want to Become the Last Man blinking for Eternity.

    “What is irony?”

    I don’t have a clue but I love the smell of it the morning!

    “Do you think anyone realizes the difference between atheist and anti-theist???”

    Hell no, most don’t even know what an atheist is, however there are still a few discerning people that do know so all is not lost. Antitheism is the more moral atheism. (Atheism with Balls) ;-)

    “It’s a shame this revelry is only betwixt two. Are there none other? (If this keeps up I’ll get poetic and I’m not a good poet).”

    Betwixt lol, I see you’ve started already. Yes there are others. If you Compose it, They will Come.

    The Poetic One

  236. Philio

    Take all you want you can’t steal what is given. “Know that you are “thinking” at this moment?” in fact if you are thinking you are not likely to be in the moment. There are however times where it’s a dance. I’ll give you two examples.

    A little free prose you may enjoy:

    “Midday” has its mirror, “Midnight”. I was in a valley between the Buffalo Mountains in central Pennsylvania camped on the edge of a beautiful lime stone stream. The dawn was just a portent. My daughter was asleep in her nest; coffee and breakfast were waiting her arousal. I had moved into the stream and crossed a narrow slick. There was only one complex sound, waters seeking their level over random rocks each believing they had found theirs.

    Facing west and as I bit the tag end off a hand made lure there was a flutter of wings not five feet away at eye level. A mocking bird had perched and was fearlessly eying me over. At eye contact it swiveled its head and I did mine. We were one in pure interest with no other intrusion, a dance had begun. There was no time passing just an expanding moment.

    As the sun began to illuminate the mountain side the bird looked to it and then back at me repeating the gesture as a partner in a dance, as if saying follow me. Its wings fluttered and I followed toward the now glistening mountain.

    The moment remained and I observed the light dancing over the leaves. Each an instrument in a symphony I had never before experienced yet one always playing. Moving my gaze toward the sound from the slick, the waters were dancing too in the scattered light reflected from the mountain like gemstones in random march toward the pool below, a dance in eternity in an instant, a harmony undisturbed, surreal, “A River Runs through It” and the river was called unity.

    Daddy!! broke the spell as my daughter came into the light. Could I give her that eternity, could she learn the dance? Of course and her promise was her willingness. She has learned the dance.

    That is one instance of “being” and there have been many some not so pleasant. Each has been pregnant metaphors with facets yet to be examined. Thoughts have their place but experience is the Gnosis where Logos might, when permitted, incarnate.

    Another “Midnight” some time in the sixties, I could tell you when but I can’t. I was in a place, I could tell you where but I can’t. I was twenty or so feet above the ground nestled in the arms of a curiously shaped Banyan tree. I was using a couple of panels cut from camo-chute to fend of a rain and give a barrier against the other occupants of my roost that bite and feed when the opportunity presents.

    My plan was to wait till dark and work my way to a river I could float to relative safety and pick-up. I heard them coming and hoped they would pass. The hope was dashed as they laggard in just below my roost.

    I heard the chatter, smelled their rice pots heating and waited as they ate. They rested till late evening before moving on. I couldn’t scratch, cough or sneeze and had to let the other occupants of the roost have their way with me. I was also hoping that the parts of the body that had become numb would regain function when needed.

    That was probably the longest NOW I’ve ever experienced. In that NOW, do you think I thought and knew I was thinking? A laps in discipline was sure death or worse.

    Some things are surreal in their reality. I don’t use either word lightly.

  237. AntiTheist666

    Wow @Philio Thanks so much for two wonderful and well written examples of what it is “to be”. And yes I did enjoy the free prose immensely. It was Deeply rich in all too Human terms and profoundly Philosophical in meaning. Applause, Bravo, Encore! I feel have much in common with you and can relate a tail or two in similar vain but could not match your sparkling style. I do have a chilling example of what I mean but alas I’m busy for while, I will come back to you soon on this but I ask a question about your examples as I go. Was Nietzsche right about instinct ruling rationality?

    “in fact if you are thinking you are not likely to be in the moment.”

    I’ve come across this many times. This is my usual answer, Thinking is a Moment itself. And thinking, if we really do it, needs to be practiced and improved upon if possible. It’s all about tension and balance of course.

    This World is Surreal, Absurd, Mad, Chaotic and Cruel... and yet...with the Right Perspective it’s a Glorious canvass for painting Beautiful pictures.

    The Crucified One

  238. Philio

    “Was Nietzsche right about instinct ruling rationality?” Normally I would jump on that question with a one word answer, yes. Usually not bothering further as I have found that many cannot get past their Avatar which in itself is complex enough or they simply refuse to do so. The current state of affairs is proof of inherent irrationality. Most generally attack the argument rather than address the question which is philosophically fine but pragmatically myopic. That too is a river, de-Nile. Here is a rambling answer.

    Instinct is one thing and intuition is another. The former is a genetically programmed response to the unknown, the necessity to identify and/or sate discomfort. Begin as the (avatar) embryo first senses discomfort whiles in the warm all sustaining fluid environment of the womb.

    You may well be beyond the following but just for clarity……….

    The embryo knows nothing. The idea “discomfort” hasn’t formed. The “body wisdom” provides instinctual response, a spasm, a total body jerk. The mother feels that jerk and may go to the first person available and question, “Can you feel my baby?” or keep it to her self.

    If what ever caused the stimulus for this body jerk continues so does the instinctual behavior. When the mother eliminates the noise, changes positions, ceases the argument or however alleviates the stimulus, the comfort is restored and the jerking stops. The process, sooner or later, becomes a connected memory element in the forming brain.

    Never forget there are hormone secretions or exchanges and reactions to, proteins, peptides, and modified amino acids all affecting the body and possibility causing epigenetic changes. It may simply be adrenalin for the shock followed by (possibly) oxytocin to moderate.

    The first lesson is discomfort and its opposite, no discomfort, all enforced via chemical exchanges. Here a personality may begin to manifest. How long and how much discomfort will be tolerated and with what force and duration is the response, a greater or lesser appreciation of chemical states? All is happening in a state of emerging awareness (consciousness).

    So a basic instinct is to seek a state without discomfort. If it rules, what is rationality? The avatar is basically opportunistic (hunter gatherer). The “body wisdom” tells it to use less energy to sate the need than the need provides. Use more and it starves……..

    Intuition: Some graphics - think of two adjacent circles. One is called “Undifferentiated Consciousness (UC)” and the second is called “Body Wisdom (BW)”. BW is finite but with a vast potential. The manifestation of this potential is dependent properties found in UC. UC is a malleable complement that has the property of inflation under the proper conditions. Its full potential always remains unrealized. It is the entirety of the unknown both knowable and unknowable. (Think of all forms or patterns possible [or even impossible] but without substance, a concept real or imagined.)

    Initially in the case of the individual (avatar) their radii are equal. Each is attracted to the other and will begin to merge through experience forming a Vesica resulting in a third property, “Differentiated Consciousness (DC)” or the wisdom (application of knowledge) of the individual. The two latter, UC and BW, dissolve into the subconscious and unconscious.

    The subconscious is approachable and accessible directly through mental exercise (memory retrieval) and subliminally through suggestion (when agreement is apparent and even when agreement is a property of the unconscious).

    The unconscious is exactly that and only accessible through observed projection or transference. The contents can be projected on to another or on to an object and in cases where the object is seen as another being. The response may be in the negative or positive but always a projection of something within.

    The inflation of the UC occurs at differing points as the individual is able to “intuit” a higher truth, physical or otherwise. Each little “ah ha” inflates the UC as the DC understands. As the Vesica grows the UC inflates causing a complementary unrealized potential in BW.

    This is the actual lesson found in Gospel of John (21:6-14) but of course allegorically interpreted and considered heretical. It is the value of HERMES and the personification of the Logos, the source of the Golden Mean and many more distractions.

  239. Philio

    I’ve forgotten to give credit where credit is due. Thomas Metzinger of Johannes Gutenberg-University Mainz is a modern philosopher.

    The statements that begin with (I myself ? The content of the currently active transparent self-model.) They are notes from one of his lectures, “Being No One”. You may find the lecture interesting.

    They fit nicely into my mastication of the subject matter and are easier to understand. He adds at the end of the lecture, “Strictly speaking, nobody is ever born and nobody ever dies”. I would add only the continuing process of differentiation

  240. Guest

    Beautiful dunes of words.

  241. Philio

    Thank you Az. We have been having an enjoyable and I believe productive time here.

  242. AntiTheist666


    Please add deep perception to the list of your many talents. Yes, Metzinger. I’ve read a fair bit about him, the doc you mention is here over at Keen Talks, and yes it’s very good. Metzinger is one of the few current Philosophers I take interest in. Consciousness, oh how this drives me insane, this thin film on a surface of de-nile. Lol.

    I wish I had some time to reply to your comments but all is hectic at the mo, thankfully calmer and balmier days are forecast a head. Forge on my Hardened Friend, I will be back to soften you up soon. Maybe a little Vogon...

    The NonSensical One

  243. AntiTheist666


    Well putt. Any thoughts on Nietzsche? Good, bad, indifferent or Poetic, he was quite the Poet himself, I think you’d like him?

  244. Philio

    One note my friend before you dip into chaos and time restraints. Take particular notice of the 18th, 19th and early 20th century philosophers, psychologists and authors, (Tolkien and Lewis). Then note the wars of the times esp. the war to end all wars. Some were combatants others civilians in war torn countries. There is something about the realities of was that provokes their philosophies.

  245. AntiTheist666


    Whoa Stallion! Cool your heels a bit...We have eternity and infinity to play with yet, so let’s not go charging of into the distance in a cloud of dust just yet ;-) You should know that times can be a fiery, hot headed, contrary, deeply passionate and unpredictable...overall though I’m cool, calm and collected. Most of all though, and I’m not sorry to say it, I am a Logician, a Laconic, Sardonic, lounge lizard kind of a loGITion... and thus a little slow and methodical at times.

    I’m sorry if this is like pulling teeth instead of legs for you but you seem like a pretty good dentist so that shouldn’t be a problem. To make up for this tortoise like pace of mine, I suggest a little dancing as we go, dancing qualia, accompanied by duelling banjo’s in this Danse Macabre of Consciousness.

    The issue of Scientific American with “The Puzzle of Conscious Experience” article was a joy; I had forgotten how good this publication was. The article was subtitled: “Neuroscientists and others are at last plumbing one of the most profound mysteries of existence. But knowledge of the brain alone may not get them to the bottom of it” I think I read this back in the day but no harm done, Chalmers writes well and one is immersed in the moment throughout. There is another article in that issue that I will go back to called: A Sign Is Born. Language unfolds among deaf Nicaraguan children. I find this and African children self- learning computing skills fascinating. All this and Breasts in one issue, good call, thanks.

    Your metaphysics of consciousness makes me think that you have watched the Horizon Docs “The Secret You” and the more recent “Out of Control” the last one focusing on the subconscious and the “aha” moment you described. If you or ANYONE hasn’t watched them I cannot recommend them any higher. Marcus Du Sautoy’s reactions on the steps after finding out that somebody else’s consciousness can predict your conscious choices approx 8 seconds before you do will live with me for a long time.

    “Strictly speaking, nobody is ever born and nobody ever dies”.

    That’s why I like this guy. Do we three know where this is going?

    “I would add only the continuing process of differentiation.”

    Agreed, I would add only that life goes on determining values of this differentiation. Or what N. said, lol

    “Take particular notice of the 18th, 19th and early 20th century philosophers, psychologists and authors, (Tolkien and Lewis). Then note the wars of the times esp. the war to end all wars.”

    Again agreed but ahh, i can relax the pace here i think, I’ve done all that and more. I don’t think it’s possible to study/properly understand Philosophy without combining these things. Which brings us nicely round to one of your early points that all philosophers are of some interest, not forgetting that most keep referring to each other in their AutoBiographies. Lol

    I leave you and ANYONE interested in Philosophy this Gem.

    If you want to see Good Philosophy being presented by someone that not only knows the subject but LOVES it as well. Checkout ALL of Robert C. Solomon’s Lectures. There are lots of them available on you tube and I think at Archive dot com. His books are ok but his links to Literature are unequalled in my opinion.

    War huh, yeah, what is it good for, absolutely...

    If one is interested in Power, it might behoove one to know a little about Warfare methinks? Till the next time O Hard One, Adieu

    The None One

    This post is dedicated to Robert C. Solomon: He loved Nietzsche too. Dear Bob, I and the world miss you greatly.

  246. AntiTheist666


    Much More than quite funny. LMAO Thanks Az

    Since Nietzsche said “God is Dead” – the word F**K has become the most important in the English Language!
    This Hilarious vid is also an English Lesson. A must watch.
    I know what I’ll be saying 5 times first thing tomorrow!

  247. Pysmythe

    Found myself repeating his punchlines while laughing. :)
    (He looked like he was sitting on the bridge of a starship.)

  248. AntiTheist666

    Did Nietzsche search for meaning or to destroy it?

    I’ve been recommended a book called “Man's Search for Meaning” by Viktor E. Frankl

    It sounds a bit grim to me, it would need to be rated – Most Excellent or Must Read for me to give it a go. Anyone Red this Book?

    The Hectic One

  249. Philio

    I’ve never watched Horizon Docs “The Secret You” and the more recent “Out of Control” but I will. “Predicting your conscious choices approx 8 seconds before you do” tell me that another process occurred first, instinctive, subliminal or unconscious. Two can be trained from within or without. The latter is for reflective personal inquiry or therapy. I prefer personal inquiry. I will “Checkout ALL of Robert M. Solomon’s Lectures” but possibly not all.

    “Metaphysics of consciousness” – My interest here was cued up anew while attending a Joseph Campbell lecture a while back!! I had begun to see the farthest reaches of theoretical physics as philosophy. I had digested comparative studies of mystic traditions. Mythology was a natural interest and had stumbled on Jung’s “Transcendent Function”.

    Campbell had used Jung’s explanation of the Psyche during the lecture. The graphic he used was a circle. The interest in the mystics naturally led to allegorical interpretive studies and interpretations of the Vesica Piscis. The engineer in me saw a basic equation represented within a circle and the Vesica Piscis could be seen as a representation but with a twist. The bladder or Vesica is the result of the interaction of properties the circles represent. One represents an active property or acceleration. The other is a type of semi-permeable barrier.

    The philosopher in me began to examine various properties in similar configurations.
    The example I gave in the post that I called inflation (of the bladder or vesica) is when the barrier approaches zero. The manifestation then approaches the limits of the active property or DC approaches UC.

    In terms of physics it is exceeding critical mass. In cosmology it is a nova or super nova. In consciousness it is “ah ha” only restrained by the semi-permeable membrane, us. There is also the reverse process at collapse yielding neutron star, a pulsar or a black hole. Hopefully the UC always continues to expand.

    These young fire brands are breaking some barriers unapproachable in the past. One of them, Allan Hobson, published a paper, Reflections on Thomas Metzinger’s “Being No One”. It a quick read and a good one. His initial statement in the title is “Finally Some One” to which I’ll respond Yea and Amen.

  250. AntiTheist666

    Thanks for that I will check it out. I have a Friends Birthday Party to attend to now so please if I post anything later --- ignore it and TELL me to get offline! “The Secret You” is here at TDF. A treat in store for you here I feel, as with the “Out of Control” one which you can see at you tube. I’ll email Vlatko a link to this doc. It’s simply a must see Doc

    There are viewer tests? They are SHOCKING!!

  251. Philio

    Now there is a Guru I understand. Every word comes through over and above the accent. Unfortunately I happen to be sipping some coffee at an inopportune moment. My shirt needs changing. The keyboard may have the same need.

  252. Guest

    Birthday's my daughter's birthday...i too should not write much as i may not make much sense, just got back from a great amount of time.
    Nietzsche...just spelling the name is an accomplishment!
    he who wrote: "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."
    That says every thing about civilization.

  253. Philio

    “Robert C. Solomon” – I found “Spirituality for the Skeptic” in my own library. I had to be reminded, yes he is very interesting. I scanned my highlights quickly. He cues with statements such as “In my own view” to signal opinion and remains personally transparent in his dialogue. There is no attempt to convince, only inform. He is a kindred spirit.

    On the Preface page he quotes Nietzsche: “It is in our wild nature that we best recover from our un-nature, our spirituality. . . . Twilight of the Idols

    “Even if we share a dogma with millions, the questions remain and the answers are to each his or her own.” - Solomon

    “Both self and consciousness invite a sense of mystery for which “soul” is merely a verbal pacifier.” - Solomon

  254. AntiTheist666

    “My Heart Soars like a Hawk”

    Old Lodge Skins – From the Movie – Little Big Man 1970

    A Deeply Philosophical Film? What would Nietzsche say?

  255. Philio

    What would Nietzsche say?

    “In the same way the very seeing of another vista, the very wishing to see another vista, is no little training and preparation of the intellect for its eternal "Objectivity" - objectivity being understood not as "contemplation without interest" (for that is inconceivable and nonsensical), but as the ability to have the pros and cons in one's power and to switch them on and off, so as to get to know how to utilize, for the advancement of knowledge, the difference in the perspective and in the emotional interpretations.” – Nietzsche … Genealogy of Morals

    Re: “The Secrete Self” and “Out of Control”, they follow the data but make huge assumptions leaving the viewer to do the same. In the undisciplined mind these results may very well be valid but not all minds are undisciplined (mental/physiological deficiencies aside).

    Powers of observation can be raised to higher levels. Even unconscious (instinctive) responses can be trained to be redirected. Lie detectors can be lied to. Fight or flight can be over ridden in an act of will even while the brain is demanding flight much quicker than 8 seconds. A response dependant on the immediate (think aggressive) act of another can be achieved in 0.25 seconds (the blink of an eye) more if poorly trained. The brain alone can make the assessment in 0.10 seconds. Spontaneous reactions to events outside conscious vision focus are reacted to and can also be trained.

    The decision time to hit an 83 mph fast ball is approx. 0.434 seconds. The decision of the hitter cannot be determined. Why? He doesn’t know himself and many more examples.

  256. AntiTheist666

    What would Nietzsche say?

    Good example. He says the ability to resist a stimulus is key and recognising this is vital.

    Re: “The Secrete Self” and “Out of Control”

    Yes, I know what you mean I am Sceptical as well as Spiritual. I think you’re talking about a small percentage of the population that can break free from a conditioned mentality?

    I’ve posted re: Philosophy, Religion, Genetics, Biology and Psychology but it has a link to some excellent Robert Sapolsky Lectures. Have you seen any of these?

    The Secret One

  257. AntiTheist666


    Thanks again for the Allan Hobson info. I hadn’t seen this before. Strangely the usual Uni access was either blocked or unavailable? Eventually I found it at good ole Google Docs. I’ve posted a link to it at the “Being No One” doc over at Keen Talks.

    Finally lol – We are not alone. We just don’t exist “in the ole fashioned way”.

  258. Philio

    @anti-thesist666 - no we don't "in the ol fashioned way"

    Robert Sapolsky Lectures – I found his lecture series “Biology (Stanford BIO 250). He is rapid fire, on point and interesting. It must be a whole course lecture. It’s very basic stuff. A very interesting lecture I found was more recent, his hair had grayed. The delivery was a little slower but still more rapid than most. After viewing young, middle and older versions of him, I get the sense he is becoming more like Solomon.

    In that last Nietzsche quote from Genealogy of Morals, he gives you his choreography. “The very seeing” is undifferentiated observation by suspension of judgment. The apprehension is the vista “simply viewed” and comprehended as it is, “switched off pros and cons” or no good or evil. That links to the next--->

    Hobson – dreams: I’ve come a long way in this area. The two previous docs discussed blurred the difference between Unconscious and Subconscious quite a bit. While researching the properties and types of mind states my interest was peaked. When viewing PET scans of the brain it can be easily seen that activity of casual looking uses a minimum of other resources, nominal activity. REM sleep uses the most. There is a lot going on in their and 90% us Unconscious.

    I decided to self experiment and see how much if anything could be made conscious or captured from the unconscious time. The results were and are very interesting.

  259. Philio

    PS - Hobson in more, much more in line with Jung's "active imagination" process.

  260. dewflirt

    Az, I managed about 20 seconds of that video and had to back out, suddenly a child again, back in the satsang room choking on incense and wishing everyone would stop talking so slowly. Saying stuff too slowly does NOT make it deep and meaningful! Just a boring bunch of stoned hippies spouting self evident truths in ever more convoluted ways! Dress the truth in too many words and it becomes diluted. Why do they never just say what they mean? Stupid. Let it go, think like a child. I might be judging him too quickly, can't help myself, I saw him and thought of Guru Maharaji and his nasty feet waiting to be kissed. There is something about people like that which gets my back up. They are so used to being listened to that they think all their words are pearls and that others should want them. Collect them into a string of nonsense with which to choke your own voice.
    Well now. I feel better for that! Not a rant at you doll, started to say something else but couldn't stop! I may have just exorcised a few daemons, or at least smacked one and said NO to his rubbish lentil pasties!!! ;)

    Edit. A word to the wise, if you want to go and listen to the ramblings of Prem Rawat, he NEVER finishes a story!!!!!!!!!

  261. docoman

    I never saw my Mum have a smoke, only ever saw her drink a champagne at her children's weddings, I only ever heard her say the aussie term 'bloody' as any swearword. But she nearly pee'd herself ROFL'ing when she heard that on youtube a few years ago. :) She was a tough, stubborn, religious, old-school, bush-born aussie woman. (knew how to 'smack' a brat back in her day too, I can attest to that ;)
    She did a 'uni' degree in her late 50's. Got diagnosed with cancer and told she had about 6 months, 3 1/2 years later she finished her 2'nd degree. She got put in hospital near the end, she got my brother to check her out and take her to her university lectures towards her 3'd degree, less then a week before she died. She obviously didn't do it for a career, but for the personal satisfaction of doing something she always wanted to do. She was pretty strong in her christian faith all though my life, but near the end she did say to me it might not be right, but she still believes it is. She made us promise to bury her in a dress suitable for her 'resurrection'.
    In a philosophical way, I view religious beliefs as I do most things. They can be good or bad, depending on how they're used in what situation, whether I agree or not is another matter.

  262. Guest

    Too bad you didn't get the joke...too caught up in your feelings. It is quite funny.

  263. AntiTheist666

    'Catch a man a fish, and you can sell it to him. Teach a man to fish, and you ruin a wonderful business opportunity.' - Karl Marx

    "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish" – IDK

    Watch ALL of the 5mins Osho vid- Since Nietzsche said “God is Dead”

    The FishLike One

  264. AntiTheist666


    Hi ho Silver.......Lining

    This stubborn mule is going to dig his high heels in here for a while, if that’s Ok Corally with you? Do you mind if we dust off a Coppola things before Dawn? B4 we begin to meditate and view things remotely? Let us go back to the Past for a Moment.

    Sapolsky – That wasn’t really aimed at you but he’s just fab to listen to.

    Tree Moment > I would love to know more?

    My own experience of this had a profound effect on me, I will relate this to you soon, it’s quite a long story that ended with me alone in the recovery room after having surgery for fairly serious head injury. My experience lasted approx 18 eternal minutes, I was seconds from death.

    WW1 – Why sooooo Important, Politically? The Glorious Revolution and the Blo*dy Terror seem more pertinent to m’wah? Kiss ME Hardy Lol ;-)

    Spinoza – What is Noble? Why I am fascinated by his geometry, am I a vain logician?

    Self experimentation is something I’ve tried far too often for a “healthy” LOL mind. I think we need to find the “right” doc to expand this, maybe “The Zen Mind” which I’ve not seen?

    The TransValuated One

  265. Philio

    Sapolsky – I’m glad you did bring him up, toward yours truly or not. It led me back to an old site I once enjoyed, “Virtual Professor”. It’s very rich and I recommended it to my daughter.

    “Tree Moments” – First, are more than tree moments. They are moments of “Transcendence”. There is much more going on there. This conversation betwixt and between have posed some complex scenarios (to my mind?). Silver has “Whoa’ed” and environments have been explained, exchanged and understood.

    My exploration of this topic began with [“Could I teach her to dance?”]. I’ve discovered that, for me, these moments have always come naturally and I’ve learned that they occur with a proper set of circumstances and a singular state of mind. Each left a lasting impression and deep insight. I believe everyone has this ability and most don’t know it.

    Nietzsche and others may have discovered the same naturally occurring talent in their walks in nature but continuing a theme took a practiced discipline, much more than some quite, a pen and paper. They had to explore and they had a method. Most importantly, there is a rigid discipline involved in the “union of opposites”.

    A method and a discipline bring many other benefits, problem solving, learning, creativity and deeper understanding in all areas.

    So, what of the Tree Moments would you care to explore?

    I’m off to the first tee.

  266. AntiTheist666

    Dancing Qualia in the Non Synthetic Mind?

    I think I’ve learnt a step or two, a few twists, a little salsa and tango.
    Bewitched and Betwixt, caught in a fast flowing meme stream, just a little fish that wants to fly and dance away the heartache.

    The curiously shaped Banyan tree. The discipline described was Colossal. Did you have a plan B if you couldn’t hold out any longer, what was it?

    First Tee! You bet. Have a great round or two. Golf lol, where sub-par is good.

    Philosophically can you get a mighty Schleiermacher in there?

    The Whole in One One

    Edit. I think Spinoza would be pleased with my sign off. Lol.

  267. AntiTheist666

    “In a philosophical way, I view religious beliefs as I do most things. They can be good or bad, depending on how they're used in what situation, whether I agree or not is another matter.”

    Perhaps I’m a little biased? But I don’t think religion has any redeeming features at all. I would ask you to name just one them that could not have been done without religion?

    The Challenging One

  268. Guest

    my guess is that he doesn't matter what people believe in regarding religious thoughts, what change their life in a powerful way is that they believe with all their power into it.
    the one i

  269. docoman

    I don't know if there is much if anything that we couldn't have accomplished without religion. I agree, that if the 'good and evil' of religion is compared, more harm then good has been done.
    It is a psychological comfort for some people. My mother was one. One of the arguments used by religious people, is that without 'god' people wouldn't have any decent morals, and would 'run amok'. I don't agree, I think the morally decent atheists disprove this argument. BUT, some that argue this seem to strongly believe it. Possibly, for those people, they really do need religion, a belief in a 'higher power watching and recording your every move' to help 'keep their inner beasts in check'. Maybe these people couldn't contain themselves without their religion? Some of them can't anyway, and we get a good idea (be a good person) twisted to be used for a bad end. (to be a good person, we need to help those unfortunate 'unbelievers' with a 'conversion', for their own good.) Some people do use their religious beliefs to help them do better. Maybe some of these people would struggle to do that without their beliefs.

    Good and evil, aren't they mostly just a human idea, often dependent on an interpretation based on one's perspective?

  270. docoman

    The 'stat' he quotes about Australians believing in 'god' is wrong I believe. I think the 27% he says is close to the amount of Catholic people we have here.

  271. AntiTheist666


    “Good and evil, aren't they mostly just a human idea, often dependent on an interpretation based on one's perspective?”

    Perspective eh? Dear Friedrich had something to say about that.
    Please just answer the question! Name one good feature of religion that couldn’t be achieved without it? Please don’t say art, architecture, music, community, etc. For Obvious Reasons!

    Have you watched this Fab doc or read any Nietzsche?

    The Kind One

  272. AntiTheist666

    I really like this guy and don’t mind his Colourful Language at all. Good Call ;-) I’ll look out for more of him, who is he? I don’t watch much tv.

    He’s so Funny and to the Point! He Spears, Stabs, and Slays religion with his Sharp as a Scimitar Wit.

    “We’re trying to sell this show to the Americans, I don’t like our chances” Lmao

    Some will love him and others....

    “The 'stat' he quotes about Australians believing in 'god' is wrong I believe. I think the 27% he says is close to the amount of Catholic people we have here.”

    Statistics? Damn lies etc.

    The Oz One Lol. Life’s a Gas.

  273. Philio


    They were a small foreword squad feeling pretty safe, were poorly positioned and seemed to be hurried. They were making trail markers so there were others to follow. Not out lasting them didn’t seem to pose a problem but I was to avoid contact however and when ever possible. That said, there is always a plan B. Mine revolved around some M26A1’s a lovingly modified M14 and M1911. If plan B was the only option, my part of the mission would have been a failure. You can use your imagination and we’ll just leave that one right there. I obviously made it to extraction. You might call it an example of “being no one” and believe me that is one facet of that reality.

    The real enemy turned out to be the press. The future objective was published (somehow) by an evening newspaper franchise. There were four of us and I had become separated, all returned safely with intel to no avail. There were more enemies to deal with then the ones below the roost. You learned respect for them and they could be evaded but not the others for which I have little to no respect. (A form of PTSD you may learn to understand but never find recovery.)

  274. Philio

    Forgot to post reply under notification to you. It should be on top.

  275. docoman

    I have watched this, quite awhile back. ( I want to watch it again, paying better attention, I might have dozed off. I'm 'capped' at the moment, it's hard just to log in to Disqus let alone watch anything. Tomorrow my 'string and tin-can internet' resets). I haven't read any of Nietzsche's work though. Obviously, philosophy is not something I've much of an academic knowledge in, I do find some of it interesting and new, so I'm learning :) Old dog here, but still trying to learn new tricks ;)

    To answer your question, the only thing I can think of off the top of my head that religion does that an atheist belief probably can't, is give 'some' people some comfort in thinking that after they die they'll get to see their loved ones again, and have more 'life' themselves. (assuming they and they're loved ones all 'make it' to heaven)
    I don't have the same religious beliefs as my Mum did, but it did make me feel better that she seemed to get something out of it, regardless of whether I think it's nonsense or not. I'm pretty sure she got something out of it that wasn't bad near the end. ( based on emotions not logic, granted. I think in times like that an emotional/psychological comfort is still a good thing, misplaced belief or not.)

    I've mentioned a friend of mine before, who's a returned Veteran. I've known him for a few years now, but much better over the last 6 to 12 months. We've had some interesting conversations about morals, right and wrong, things he's seen and done. One example of where good and evil can change dramatically is war. He said one time, very seriously and I thought quite chillingly, 'it's a weird feeling watching a boy of about 10 years age carrying an AK, and you know that when he see's you, he'll try to kill you'.
    Normally, from most perspectives, a trained soldier shooting a boy would be considered evil. But if it's out of 'self defense', (at that point in time, regardless of where and how it came about to getting to that situation, it becomes a 'them or you' deal) Is it still evil if the boy is really a combatant too?

    (just my thoughts. I think perspective, or the situation, can have an influence on what we consider good or evil. I would be interested to know what you think. I will watch this doc again when I can)

  276. AntiTheist666


    Thanks for that, much as I imagined. You must have been very young? Maybe NNNineteen?

    “You learned respect for them and they could be evaded but not the others for which I have little to no respect.”

    “Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer” – Various


    Self Experimentation, Meditation, OBE, Altered Mind States cte. Wear shall we dance around these handbags?

    The Altered One

  277. docoman

    His name is Jim Jefferies. I don't watch much TV either, it would have to be on late to even consider letting his language on over here :) I randomly found him on youtube a couple of weeks ago. This is a clip out of his show called alcoholocaust. I watched it with my mate, some of it we thought was really funny, it goes on for a fair while though. Quite crude and sexist at times, but in a funny way we thought :)

  278. Philio

    Achem has been very patient with this thread and there has been little to no other interest or exchanges. Suggest another topic area. We can take turns drawing out and dealing with snipers between exchanges.

  279. AntiTheist666


    “the only thing I can think of off the top of my head that religion does that an atheist belief probably can't, is give 'some' people some comfort in thinking that after they die they'll get to see their loved ones again, and have more 'life' themselves.”

    Off the top of your head? Do you really that is a good quality? For me and many others it’s the foulest of foul things on National Foulness Day! Not a redeeming quality at all.

    I’ll come to back to you on Nietzsche, Perspective, morality, good and Evil soon.

    (Man, dog etc.)

    The Fugitive One

  280. AntiTheist666


    I suggest we tactically withdraw to “The Zen Mind” or something of your choice?

    I shall be away with the mixer again soon but shall return Fortified in a bout several million years or ours witchever comes sooner.

  281. Philio

    A notice of arrival at your suggestion.

  282. docoman

    Sorry, I wasn't meaning to insult or annoy anyone. Just giving, what I admit is less then well thought through thoughts, looking for feedback from others such as yourself that clearly have a much greater knowledge in this then I. That's why I said I think off the top of my head... I wasn't claiming to know any facts. :) I will watch the doco again and pay better attention when I'm able. ( I'm sometimes medicated and insomniac, being drowsy is a problem sometimes, dozing in it didn't mean non interest. My bad, my yoke not yours.)
    Please forgive my ignorance. I usually try to follow Jim Jefferies' 'single page bible'. Ya don't have to answer me if it's annoying. :)

  283. AntiTheist666


    Oh no, I wasn’t the least bit insulted or offended, quite the opposite. And far from being annoying I found what you had to say quite encouraging. I will come back with more details, info etc. but I am at the mo applying my own self medication. (Beer!) I will return to discuss matters soon. Drop your deference to the monster of religion and you’re well on the way to understanding NIETZSCHE. You are just the man he was... but perhaps you don’t know it yet?

    The Human One

  284. docoman

    Watched it again.
    I do agree with many of Nietzsche's idea's, especially the 'will to power'. Quite a few of his life experiences and my own have a lot in common, especially his poor health. I think probably that is one of the reasons I agree with most of his thinking. (from what I saw on this doco)
    I did find his sense of self importance, ie, 'the first decent human being' quote, him being the 'messenger' for a new way of thinking for mankind ect inconsistent with his philosophy that everyone needs to think for themselves, be their own god.
    I wonder if that was possibly due to early symptoms of a mental illness, or was he just a vain person by nature.

  285. AntiTheist666

    I’m so pleased you watched it again and share some experiences and thoughts with Dear Freidrich. He was terribly ill, this doc does not give the full picture and N. didn’t help matters by being secretive about it. There is so much misunderstood and misdiagnosed about N, certainly in regard to his insanity, it would take walls of text to explain it, thankfully this info is becoming more and more mainstream.

    There is a fine article about this at leonardsax dot com; it’s called:
    “What was the cause of Nietzsche’s dementia?” - Approx 6 A4 well written pages.

    On Self importance and Vanity – Nietzsche was beyond that as well as good and Evil. Mere humanity wouldn’t know this though.

    Your example of him being inconsistent is incorrect; I hope you might be able to show me why? He IS inconsistent in other parts of his works but not hear.

    “or was he just a vain person by nature.”

    We are all vain and driven by ego; just like us Nietzsche was Human, all too Human.

    Jim Jefferies – Thanks, people can learn a lot from him besides caustic humour.

    The Caustic One

  286. docoman

    I meant similarities in thought process of dealing with a chronic illness more so then the illness itself. No std's here, although some symptoms are similar. :)
    I stress for anyone reading this, that I haven't read N.'s books ect, I'm not trying to state facts, just thoughts (that could well be incorrect).

    It could be just my interpretation of the wording of the narration or those interviewed, but it seemed to me inconsistent to say everyone needs to stop being told how to think (church), and start thinking for themselves 'how I'm telling them to'. (philosopher)
    I do understand that in thinking for yourself, you're not being told by N. so much as WHAT to think, but HOW, as apposed to the church doing both. But if you arrive at the conclusion that you should think for yourself because you were told to rather then via your own reasoning, it's not really free thought to start with is it? It feels a bit like a paradox to me if someone exhorts 'everyone should think how I tell them to, by thinking for themselves'. (which I got the impression from this doco' was the 'mission' N. took upon himself. It's no big deal, it's just a thought I had while watching it.)

    I take it by first 'decent' human he's meaning 'marked by moral integrity'. In that he 'killed god', and is the only person seeking a higher purpose for humans then what the church offers. (I could well be wrong, correction would be appreciated if I am. But whichever the meaning, it's a big, and in my opinion probably incorrect, statement.)
    If I've understood that correctly, he's assuming he's the only and first to think the way he did. Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean someone else hasn't thought it before or currently. I think it's quite possible someone before N. thought along similar lines, they either didn't/couldn't write it down or it was lost and forgotten. Some could well have thought that but didn't write it for fear of reprisal from the deists if it was found. (I don't know, I'm just saying it's a bit of an assumption to say you're the first ever human to have a particular idea, especially if it's as old and widespread a topic as religion. Granted, science was bringing more understanding and new ideas when N. said that)
    That's one of the reasons I said I think he must've been a very vain man, that and what I took as his 'mission to correct the worlds thinking'. He's thought it through, he's smart enough to understand it, he's figured it out, so what he believes must be correct, and therefore anyone else seeking 'truth' must inevitably agree with him. And so the world should listen to him. (again, I could be wrong, its the impression I got from this doco. )

    I don't understand how you can say on the one hand N was vain and still driven by ego because he was all too human, but also he's beyond self importance and vanity, although mere humanity wouldn't know this.
    How could he be beyond mere humanity if he was still a mere human? Are you saying you think in some way he 'transcended' his own humanity? (by 'killing god' ?)

    He said something along the lines of 'if you want to live a happy life, believe what the church says. If you want to live a lonely life, seek the truth'. I wonder, if 'good and evil' are just human ideas, are also 'right and wrong', truth and lies?
    Maybe the higher purpose of our existence is to live a happy life? Are truth and accuracy the same thing philosophically speaking?
    Maybe he would have been more accurate saying something along the lines of, 'if you want to feel satisfied in your life, find and believe in 'your truth' that makes you happy. If you want to risk a lonely life, seek only accuracy.' Do you know if he considered that sort of idea?

    I haven't read the link you provided yet. I'm certainly not an expert in mental illness, one of my brothers (ironically the 'good' one:) has schizophrenia so I'm not completely ignorant in the area. He's one of the lucky one's, he accepts and deals with his illness, very well actually. (he's about to finish university as a mature student, degree's in social work). He's mentioned to me before about 'grandiose ideas' being a common symptom of some mental illness'. (why you get some thinking they're the messiah ect)
    That's why I was wondering if possibly N. was showing signs of a problem, with his 'first decent human' idea, and the (overwhelming it seems) feeling of responsibility to tackle the problems for humanity as a philosopher. Apparently, schizophrenia often 'shows itself' in the late teens into 20's. Many that have the illness are quite intelligent in ways, and very introverted. My brother can make himself unwell by too much self reflection, which he does easily if he doesn't stop himself. I could see him going into a bad psychosis if he attempted what N. did. (I was thinking possibly a combination, mental and physical illness, plus the added inferred STD)
    I could be way off the mark, I'll go read the link you kindly provided.

    PS. sorry for the extreme length.

    The long One. Hmm, now were have I said that before.... lol.

  287. AntiTheist666

    Thanks docoman, there's no need to apologise for your length. It's the quantity not the quality. You've asked a lot of questions and also answered them. I hope that your views change as you learn more. I will be back to give a fuller response to your post soon. In the meantime why not checkout some of his works?

    The Short One

  288. docoman

    I hope I'm usually willing to change my views as I learn more, if that information is contrary to what my thinking is.
    I just finished reading the link you gave. Thank you, very interesting and informative, in a few ways.
    It seemed to confirm that my suspicion of him displaying grandiose ideas from earlier in his life were an indication of a progressive mental illness. The man suffered a lot for a long time it seems :( Probably not from syphilis though. :)

    One part I found a little worrying. Under the part headed 'The history of a mistake' where it says;
    "His sister Elisabeth responded by creating a cult centred on her brother. She dressed him in flowing white robes, to create the illusion that he had become some sort of silent guru, and to imply that his dementia had some profound philosophical meaning. After Nietzsche’s death, the most fanatical of his followers began to insist that Nietzsche’s dementia had been some sort of higher
    state, an ‘ascent into the mystic’ "

    Learning that, and remembering your quote, "On Self importance and Vanity – Nietzsche was beyond that as well as good and Evil. Mere humanity wouldn’t know this though."
    You're not a subscriber of such a 'cult' are you? While I agree with many of his ideas I saw on this doco, I don't see (possibly yet?) how he's beyond what he was, a human.

    The hesitant One.

  289. Guest

    I like a long honest comment that ends with a joke about "longevity".

  290. docoman

    I really liked the bit on this doco about N's 'will to power'. I intend on reading more about it. I was reading yours and sixes' posts about meditation and pain on the other thread. I haven't tried (or know much about) meditation, except my own personal brand possibly? I think I'll investigate that more too when I'm in the appropriate mood.

    I contracted an illness, Q-Fever, during the course of my duties in my work, about the same time I turned 21. I struggled for a few months, went to the Doctor, (he didn't test me for exposure to Coxiella burnetii) he said I was fine. I figured it was myself just not trying hard enough. Over the next 4 years I ground myself beyond the point of physical exhaustion trying to survive. I got exposed for a 2nd time, which really put me on my .... A proper diagnosis, 2 court cases and years later, (19yrs now since I first got sick) I still have a very close relationship with Mr. Pain. :(
    The good thing for me is, it's variable. Some days aren't too bad, some are. So to me, I find there is different levels of pain, and I have different ways to handle them. Mild pain I can just ignore basically.
    What I call medium pain, I use a mental trick I taught myself. I view pain kind of like a little 'chucky doll', fighting me. I get the little bugger, stuff him in a box, and sit on the lid. Once I have him in the box (sometimes after a bit of effort), he'll kick the lid and make a bit of noise from time to time, but I've got him controlled. (it becomes quite tiring after awhile, it takes a fair bit of 'will', but I can do it, with sleep breaks, for days. Could that be considered a form of meditation? After that I go looking for whatever medication will dull the pain effectively.

    I have visited a few times what I consider the final level of pain. One time for 4 days I lapsed in and out of consciousness in extreme pain, I don't remember leaving the lounge room floor. (should have been in hospital in hindsight, living by myself on a farm) It's kind of funny/weird remembering those 4 days now. I don't really recall the pain much, mostly the experience. My mind kind of drifted in and out, kind of like standing in a heavy, patchy fog at night in a light breeze, that sometimes was quite clear, sometimes almost a white-out, and others just black/nothing. It feels in my memory much shorter then 4 days. (I've had similar experiences after operations, but that was 'tainted' with morphine)

    (I'm not looking for your pity, just giving some background on my experience, interested in your thoughts. Is 'mental' pain control a from of meditation?)

  291. Guest

    FOR SURE it's!
    Never heard of Q-Fever before myself...just looked it up on wiki.
    I would think you may benefit from meditation when you feel well. You seem to be able to block the world inside you, perhaps you can try further and block the whole world around you.

    What a life we all live in our personal way!

  292. docoman

    Ya gotta love TDF. Thank you Vlatko & co. And the people who post here.
    Thanks for your response. I hadn't ever really thought of what I did as anything other then 'my way' of handling it, I've only ever tried it for pain control. I have quite an interesting and to me, a new, topic to learn and think about. Are there any doco's on here about meditation you would recommend to a beginner?

    Technically I've got 'Post Q-Fever Syndrome', you only 'have' q-fever for a few weeks. I had it over 3 years before I heard of it, got it worse then many because of the 2nd dose. (about 4% of untreated die, so it could be much worse :) Many doctors (GP's) know little if anything too. Interestingly I find, it's considered a biological warfare agent. I saw on a doco here on biological warfare, during the Cuban crisis the USA ordered a lot prepared. My specialist, Prof. Maddocks, (retired now) helped do some research on the disease in his early days. I did a couple of 'guinea pig' trials on a couple new drugs/antibiotics with him. They didn't help me, but was worth the try. There is a vaccine, developed by an Aussie :) I heard the US military was including it in their personnel vaccinations and an Aussie company got the contract to produce it, so the cost here has dropped.
    I forced the 2nd company I was exposed at to vaccinate the other workers. 27 others had been exposed (you can't vaccinate someone who's been exposed, they get a reaction to it.) I helped a couple of them organize the doctors they needed to see, and showed them how they could legally chase compensation as I was. (after I'd left the first company not knowing, the health department stepped in and made them vaccinate. There are a couple from there much worse then I am, about 40 people exposed there I believe. I know of one lady that died, another that required heart-valve transplant, one guy has a screwed liver and is always in and out of hospital) There's other complications they don't mention in most papers on it. My teeth painfully disintegrated from the stomach acid from so much multiple times a day vomiting, (shiny white false teeth now :D ) I've had 'gut' complications ect.
    A friend of mine asked me how it was going, I said blah blah.. they cut half my colon out... blah blah. He said, "ohh, so now you're a semi-colon! ';' The clever bastage made me lol. :)
    I find Coxiella burnetii an interesting life form. They've changed it's classification since I first read about it, now into a sub-group of proteobacteria I believe. It can dry out, survive for weeks, and only take 1 of them to infect you, they're hard to kill because they live 'inside' your cells, its hard to get to them. I've read of a case in the USA where 14km downwind of dumped infected goat carcasses people got infected. Real life is sometimes more interesting then science fiction. (from what I can tell, it seems to like the warmer weather, so you're probably pretty unlikely in Canada to run into it I'd guess, not trying to make you paranoid. :)

    I agree, whatever is going on in your life it's an interesting ride. If you had asked me 20 years ago do I think there might be something in meditation, I'd probably say not much if anything. Probably out of lack of life experience, and a bias against it because of my religious upbringing. Now I'm much more open minded in general, and if what I do is a form of meditation, I'm sure there can be benefits. I find pain a strong motivator, I've never even considered meditation when well, I think I'll have to be in the right mood/ set and setting to attempt something different. I tried staring in the mirror for a couple minutes today, I couldn't concentrate, my dachshund didn't like it :)

    I also am very glad I got to travel and live overseas before getting sick. Another 'self-encouragement' thing I sometimes do is remember some of the people I've seen overseas, especially the kids. Many of them would swap spots with me in a heart-beat if possible. Things could be much worse, you have to remember the good things you've got. It took me quite a few years to learn that, my initial response was a self-destructive anger. I'm much calmer and happier now then I used to be. (attitude induced, not medicine. New research suggests also possibly, neuroplasticity. A whole 'nother long, probably boring to everyone post )
    I find it ironic that I visited some dirty, 3rd world countries no worries, but caught something here at home. lol.

    Edit- I like your photo's. I wish I had taken more when I traveled. I in many cases have to settle for my mental pictures my memory gives me.

  293. docoman

    When I'm doing my 'doll in the box thing', I have a special wooden box I picture in my mind. It's old and battered, but strong and sturdy. Once I have 'the doll' in there, it can't break the box, the only way out is the lid. I have to sit on the lid (he kicks it and bumps me around on it). That's why it becomes tiring, holding him in there. I have thought, if I could get a latch on the box, I might be able to get off and relax more, making it easier. I've never been able to get a latch that will hold (without chemical help, apart possibly from sleep from exhaustion), I have to jump back on the lid.
    I don't think I have a high tolerance for pain, it still hurts if I stub my toe ect, I 'sook' about it like everyone else. I think I am pretty practiced at my pain control when I'm trying. My surgeon said to me in an 'out-patient' appointment, "I've learned you're not a book I can judge by it's cover. Before we did your operation, I had a question in my mind, because everyone else I've seen that had what you did was writhing in pain. Every time I saw you, you were laying there stoically and just answered my questions." I said "because of my other problems, I think it hurts more if you carry on about it, for me it hurts less if you just deal with it."
    It's always been a 'practical application' thing for me. But reading some of 'you guys' posts, I can see there could well be more in it then just for pain control.

  294. Philio

    @docoman – If you have managed to hold such images in your mind, then yes you are meditating and apparently with deep concentration. Further more if you are becoming physically tired from this mental activity, the cause can only be stress. (You are using a lot of fuel through mental activity.) You are arm wrestling in your mind. Prolonged stress can lead to depression and prolonged depression can lead to despair. ( as a caveat, I am not an MD.)

    The coined term for your meditation form is “active imagination”. It is a powerful tool when used properly. I would guess that there are times when this pain is less intense, possibly much less.

    “Once I have 'the doll' in there, it can't break the box, the only way out is the lid. I have to sit on the lid (he kicks it and bumps me around on it). That's why it becomes tiring, holding him in there. I have thought, if I could get a latch on the box, I might be able to get off and relax more, making it easier.”

    You have a little different type of mental work to do. This is assuming that you have eliminated physical habits as a cause of pain elevation, foods, drinks, aromas, loud sounds, physical activities or the lack there of, whatever.

    If you have then, take a moment to relax as fully as you are able and ask yourself what it is that are doing when the pain is less intrusive. Then with each discovery, in that same relaxed state, use your active imagination to fully envision each activity. See yourself doing them in your mind. Let me know what you discover.

    As an aside, what I’ve just completed doing here is a form of meditation.

  295. docoman

    G'day Philio, thank you for your response and good info and ideas.
    This is the most I've really thought about it when I'm not doing it. I've been ill for about 19 years now, the pain level is quite variable, over that time its been everything from nothing, to me literally passing out. Thankfully for me, it's very rarely been that extreme, and I've usually had medications before that point. I'm pretty sure I couldn't handle intense pain like that incessantly, I think I'd stop it permanently.
    I was thinking about what you said about it making me tired. The more the pain, the more active concentration it takes to control it. I've visited my GP while doing it (ruptured disk in my lower back), he took my blood pressure and said it and my heart rate were high. I said, yeah, I'm in a fair bit of pain right now, that's why I'm here asking for some pain killers.
    I'm not sure now thinking about it how much is the concentration effort, (I'd assumed it was mostly that, kind of like feeling tired after a long drive, where you haven't done much physically yet you get weary), or how much is a stress reaction of the body because of whatever the cause of the pain and the pain itself. I've also had a relationship with depression and despair. I got to the point I had to choose, either roll over and die, or do what I can to manage it. That was a fair while ago now, I'm still here ;) I rarely get depressed anymore, I've found no good use for it.
    When you get a variable, diverse, sometimes overlapping complicated range of symptoms, it can be difficult to establish cause and effect. I've had to do a fair bit of what you mention in eliminating things to understand how to manage it. I often employ distraction techniques, (TDF is good for that I find) I have also discovered a veggie patch, and fish quite relaxing and rewarding. I have 10 fish tanks just behind me as I type. :) I sometimes sit there and just 'observe' my fish, don't think about anything else. Within about 10 minutes I always feel very calm and relaxed. (unless I spot a problem in there:)
    I'll have a go at what you suggest, let you know how it goes. Thanks mate.

  296. Philio

    That’s good to know. About that littler bugger you built a box around, since this is mental work, you might try imagining him in a helium filled balloon tied closed. He could kick all he wants to no avail. Then just watch him float away into oblivion.

    Instead of sitting on the lid you could (in you mind) join those fish for a swim. Keeping with the “in your mind perspective”, you don’t have to worry about breathing and the aquarium walls are no obstacle, you can swim right through them to any where you want.

    That’s a little corny, I know, but think about the difference in the two scenarios. You called it right it’s all distraction techniques. I’ll bet you are more refreshed after the suggested distraction. It uses much, much energy and eliminates barriers.

    Think about it, see the differences and let them sink in. It'a art form.


  297. Guest

    I struggled wanting to anwer your comment during my afternoon brake from work but did not manage to put down the right words, at least not satisfying to me, so i deleted. Went back to work and here i come back and this new i'm boggled.
    I thought of you quite a few times today.
    Had the thought of suggesting sungazing, do you live on flat land? I know some people will say sungazing is dangerous (google it), but i have a friend who did it for a whole summer and found much benefit from did not impact his eye sight as feared by many.
    You seem to have quite a bit of control over pain, do you have that much control over joy? Do you allow it, welcome it?
    I will wait until the right idea comes to mind before i add anything else to this thread between us.
    Just know that it's in the back of my mind.

  298. docoman

    Mate is commonly used here, just means 'my friend'. My nephew had a Canadian friend visit here a few months ago, he got a funny look on his face when someone said mate. He said to my nephew, 'why does everyone say mate, isn't that what animals do?' lol

    From this doco and the thread, it seems Nietzche never had an intimate relationship with a good woman. The only one he found he thought he could love rejected him in favor of a his friend.
    I think probably some of his thinking would have changed if he had experienced the love a woman can give a partner. I can see his point with the quote you mentioned, but it also has a feeling to me similar to a teenage boy talking bs with his mates. Someone who hasn't yet felt it can be more then just play. From what I've seen, women on average are much more adept and better equipped to play the role of puppet master. :)
    It seems to me, N.'s self evaluation and logic were fooled by his emotions regarding real relationships between men and women. He didn't find it, and in response turned very cynical. I suspect he may have despised the fact he had that unsatisfied need, and saw that not as his failings, but instead somehow women's nature.
    It is sad for him he never experienced that kind of love. I wonder how much of his philosophy may have changed if he had.

  299. AntiTheist666

    Dear DocoMan

    I hope you’re feeling well today and have a noble noontide to look forward to. Thanks ever so much for your thoughts and observations along with your probing and sensitive questions. (Except for one, which we’ll have fun with later ;-)

    Nietzsche and Philosophy?

    These two things are neither easy nor difficult yet they are both incredibly important to understand. Where does a newbie begin?

    Ok let’s start with some of your questions:

    “While I agree with many of his ideas I saw on this doco, I don't see (possibly yet?) how he's beyond what he was, a human.”

    Beyond good and Evil is his most polemical work and I feel his most complete Philosophy. If you were to read it and understand him you would know that he had indeed redefined (transvaluated) what it was to be human and thus above and beyond the old world definition.

    “'the first decent human being' quote, him being the 'messenger' for a new way of thinking for mankind ect inconsistent with his philosophy that everyone needs to think for themselves, be their own god.”

    There is no inconsistency here; N. knows that nobody thinks for themselves, not even him. He was in his transvaluated world the first decent human being and is still to this day a messenger for a new way of thinking. Strangely he knew he would be famous after his death, his “destiny” is something he writes about in “Ecce Homo”. If you think he’s vain now wait till you read that!

    “One part I found a little worrying. Under the part headed 'The history of a mistake' where it says;
    "His sister Elisabeth responded by creating a cult centred on her brother. She dressed him in flowing white robes, to create the illusion that he had become some sort of silent guru, and to imply that his dementia had some profound philosophical meaning.”

    She did this and much more foulness that Dear Friedrich would have hated and yet you are holding up “The Will to Power” as being of the highest importance, SHE controlled how this book turned out. Read it by all means but you can hardly even say it’s by him, see if you can find what Robert C. Solomon has to say about it?

    “Internal bravery I honestly don't know if I posses.”

    I think you have oodles of this, you’ve told us of enough examples already, take strength from this O Brave One.

    Very well done on reading the whole thread, there are some juicy bits and pieces in there. lol. In one reply to you I inserted one word as hook and I think you bit nicely. Btw this is a good thing. I’m sure it led you to this question/joke/insult?

    “You're not a subscriber of such a 'cult' are you?”

    Lol. Hmm please expand what you mean here? The word I used that got your attention I believe was the mere word Mere?

    Until the next time my Hardy and Brave Friend.


    The Mere One

  300. Vlatko


    NOt sure how to bring this back to the doc...the moderator are going to take all this great chatting away.

    If you aware of that, why start the chat anyways. I understand, occasionally anyone can be carried away, but to insist on chatting and off topic discussion whenever and wherever possible... it is beyond me.

  301. Achems_Razor

    Yes my cue, will start to delete off topic posts starting from 2 days ago.

  302. docoman

    @ Admins
    It was my fault on this occasion. I asked Az and she kindly answered me. Sorry, I'll try to say on topic better.

  303. Guest

    Your tolerance is bias....some use more out of topic space than i ever do, here is a few examples...

    The thinking atheist
    "And the world would be a better place without you and those like you."

    The thinking atheist
    "Maybe he'll make another veiled threat and be banned from posting. Then I won't need to ignore him--and neither will anybody else."

    2 out of hundreds in Why i am no longer a Christian (and many other accusations on any docs for not writing good enough for him)
    "f I recall, the question about masturbation was written in response to someone who was condemning the practice? Therefore, the question was a perfectly valid one--nothing sick about it.
    The correct preposition in your last line is by not with. "Direct elucidation" means not a direct explanation, i.e., not beating around the bush. So don't try to tell me I'm using big words improperly. You don't know what you're blogging about.
    I" (and yes the f was at the beginning and the i at the end)

    "I can understand I "comed" to the house. But it's certainly betrays ignorance on the part of anyone who writes it, except as an example.
    And no, acceptable by general standards of English--and there are many fine books on the subject, just about all of them in agreement on the basics. Harry Markopolos of Madoff fame writes and speaks very diffierently than I do, but both his speech and his writing are by all means acceptable. So don't try the parochialism ploy on me. "

    I'll stop here....just go to any religious docs and you can delete half the posts on them as most don't talk about the doc itself, their purpose is to bash all religious mind.

    You guys are part of a clan, the attitude of this clan is to gang on anyone that places value on their beliefs, even people who declare not being religous but believing in a Designer. I too do not agree with many of what some take for granted but i also see that (the bashing and how it can escalate) is what keeps wars active and explosive on this earth. Perhaps my attitude of ignoring such post is no better to you, to me it is.

    As for my out of topic posts.....delete all you want, including this one.


  304. Achems_Razor

    What is the matter toots? having a bad day? Posts way off topic get deleted even mine, Epic, Vlatko's and others. I even delete my own myself.

    Of course we are part of a clan and you are also, you belong with the TDF community. Number one to be precise.

  305. docoman

    Thanks for your post. I haven't had time to do more, probably wont for a few days, life....

    I need to read and learn more, thank you, I hadn't picked up that WTP was one of his sister's audited works. :( I'll keep that in mind when I get to reading it. :( I didn't say it was the most important, I said it was the one that interested me the most so far. (as it may contain something more immediately useful to my more pressing needs.)
    At this point, I don't agree with him on some things. 'First decent human' being one.
    I think I understand what he and you meant by redefining, in some ways, what it means to be human.
    I have a couple problems with it. He doesn't know if he's the first, or only then to 'kill god', and attempt to think about how to live morally without a deity. We don't know if he was, it's possible he's only the first we've heard of. His 'transvalued' world was his way of describing it I take it so far, it doesn't mean he's the first to visit 'that place'. As Jim Jefferies pointed out, not everyone has to have it written down for them to be able to figure out some things.
    We all have talents in different areas, some of N.'s were in thinking and writing philosophy. He's still part of the collective 'humanity', even if he did expand it's meaning some by achieving a first, or was brilliant in his way. Neil Armstrong is not 'beyond human', even though it could be argued that he was the first to redefine humanity in a new way. Same thing with many examples, Oppenheimer & co. and the 'nuclear age', Akhenaten and monotheisim. I think part of it is what we each find important/interesting to us, from our perspective.

    Unless you ascribe something extra to N. Which led me to your final question. I don't mean dancing around some robed figure, it was mostly 'tongue in cheek'. :) But, I do immediately question if someone says themselves or someone else is/was something somehow more then another mere human. 'Supernatural' connotations usually come with the term. :)
    At this point, while I agree with some of what I've learned N. said, I don't on others. I don't see something 'supernatural' or beyond human in anyone, including someone that through life experience had some clear thoughts mixed with a progressive mental illness and it's accompanying symptoms, but was still able to display their linguistic mastery in writing these thoughts down. I interpret his predictions on his future fame as part deduction and part mentally ill grandiose thinking. And possibly, partly a replacement of the wish for immortality though a deity with one through human memory?

    I will do more reading, learn more. Bit busy for a bit. Cheers mate.

  306. AntiTheist666


    I found a site that deals with meditation and its medical applications. You were in my thoughts when I was reading the info. The details and a link are at “The Zen Mind” doc. I hope it might be of some use to you.

  307. Guest

    Have you watched the doc Philosophy-Guide to happiness here on TDF, the last part is about Neitzche, called hardship.
    Now you may already have mentionned it on this thread but i didn't feel like looking through.
    off to the zen mind to see details.

  308. AntiTheist666

    Nietzsche on Hardship.

    Yes I’ve seen and quite enjoyed it, Alain de Botton is ok but he doesn’t get me very excited, I feel Philosophy needs really good presenters to give it some life, a little like Simon Schama did for History. Thanks for bringing him (SS) to mind, I’ve been meaning to watch “A History of Britain” again for ages and now seems like a very good time. If you’ve not seen it it’s extremely good, even if you’re not from britland.

    He also did one called “The American Future: A History” which I’ve not seen, what are your thoughts on this? There is a doc I would love to see again called “How the West was Lost” but I don’t mean the Rich Hall one, which is also very good. Have you seen this by any chance? There are a few vids about it on you tube but this doc is so good I will buy it on DVD later. Is there a History doc about America and or Canada you would recommend?

  309. Guest

    Sorry i read your message a while back but postponed to answer and then forgot.
    I agree Alain de Botton was not the most lively guy, as for Schama, he has a few good docs on Power of Art: Simon Schama's Power of Art: Van Gogh...i think i'll watch it now.

    I have not watched either one of the doc you suggest... There's always the question in my mind...what if the loser won?

    I just suggested a doc to TDF called UNREPENTANT: KEVIN ANNETT AND CANADA’S GENOCIDE...we'll see if it gets posted. I haven't watched it yet.

  310. AntiTheist666

    Hi Az

    Thanks for the recommendation, it’s here and will watch it very soon, I see it won best international documentary 2006. I don’t think I gave my recommendation for “How the West was Lost” enough praise. It was shown on the BBC a few years ago, one hour long episode every day for a week. After seeing the first one I cancelled everything to make sure I didn’t miss a second of this amazing documentary, here’s what the New York Times said about it.

    Review Summary

    This compelling documentary explains how the American West was irretrievably lost to the indigenous people of North America. Witness the tragic plight of the Navajo, Nez Perce, Apache, Cheyenne, and Lakota tribes through their eyes and their words. Poignant recollections from Indian descendants, astonishing video, rare historical documents, and archival photographs are included in this three-volume set. ~ Karla Baker, Rovi

    If you want to know more there is a much more in depth review at veganreader dot com.

    Just put this in the search at the veganreader site:

    How The West Was Lost (1993) – Review Of TV Series Of Great Merit

    The shocking truth behind our histories are often swept under the carpet but thanks to documentaries and sites like this perhaps more people will understand that we are NOT moral at all and that Nietzsche was right when he said.

    “ [Anything which] is a living and not a dying body... will have to be an incarnate will to power, it will strive to grow, spread, seize, become predominant -- not from any morality or immorality but because it is living and because life simply is will to power... 'Exploitation'... belongs to the essence of what lives, as a basic organic function; it is a consequence of the will to power, which is after all the will to life.”

    Beyond good and Evil.

    The Crucified One

  311. Matt Kukowski

    The word God is too loaded of a word at this point. How about Nature. Mother Earth... that kind of thing. Obviously, without the Sun and a Healthy Earth, all life is doomed.

    People are so confused, and so confusing.

  312. Austin Mayo

    one must not abide by or fall victim to society as is. leaving one to experience lifes true presence.

  313. YouthWisdom

    good point, but god teaches us to fear him because he wants us to have faith...afraid I am when I need to choose whether I believe or not because I do believe in his teachings but my feelings towards the church are negative (because of its history). I would like that one day there wont be any religion....only *ideas* that small or big communities believe in. I think that this word is on its way down to a very bad hour....because we forgot what is most important....god wants us to acknowledge the beauty of life and enjoy it in a human way (no alcohol, no perverted sex life, no bad taught) are a good teaching to lead this word to a better place. Liberty, love and intelligence was perverted and still is.... I think I am in the wrong time....the music, the women, the man....all are weird because they seem very influenced by money and religion (even those who dont beleive).

  314. Macario Sm

    Aaaahh, quite refreshing, thanks guys, excelent music!

  315. avd420

    Nietzsche actually said something along those lines. I can't find the quote, but it went something like, "I think one reason man holds onto God is because of our limited vocabulary."

  316. chaos Beauty

    his sister was a bitch . What she did was cruel , warping his work a bit
    making him out to be pretty much a Nazi tho he was sick showing him
    off like an animal in a zoo etc , is not compassion but cruel . he did
    not seem like an awful man, the Nazis were awful , Hitler was psycho
    cruel and an f d up person . the comparison is false and bull

  317. AntiTheist666

    Well spotted avd420.

    It’s from Twilight of the Idols

    “I fear we will never be rid of God while we still hold on
    to Grammar”

    The Crucified One

  318. DAVIDD

    just on a side note the swastika is symbolic of the black hole with its spiraling arms, its described as desire understand desire and see its nature reflected in the black hole. empty always hungry it can never be filled or satisfied. its described as the one eye monster because when your on the event horizon next to the massive black hole its absolutely terrifying. the ignorant nazi though was symbol for satan because saturn also embodies desire the desire for life that birth us into reality. surrounded by halo of truth hail saturn. above the lords of the underworld hades poseidon hera, isis ra and el , dont be a lucifaryian nazi fool here is the true understanding, these are the names of the proton neutron and the electron lords of the underworld isis void the swastika (m) ra the light (c) el (e)the little child the electric charge birth from the two opposite the movements of time space e=mc2 why we give them name as this is so you realize you seeing the effect of consciousness not making the mistake seeing the mechanical functions of a soulless universe described by decartes

  319. Leanna Lauber

    Thoughtful commentary - I loved the specifics , Does someone know where my business might be able to access a sample AK DR-150 version to edit ?

  320. Susan

    To AntiTheist666
    I highly recommended reading “Man's Search for Meaning” by Viktor E. Frankl.
    You can also look up and actually watch Viktor E. Frankl speak in old interviews on YouTube and decide if you want to read his book too.

  321. Josh

    Many of you haters here lambasting Nietzsche: what have you offered the world except for your whiney sense of arrogance, as if you all had a better philosophy for life, lol. Go back to your playstations and pokemon go and be part of the herd.

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