The Party's Over: How the West Went Bust

The Party's Over: How the West Went BustIn the teeth of the worst financial crisis in living memory, BBC business editor Robert Peston examines how the world got to this point and how the colossal imbalances in the global economy have left the UK in need of a radical economic overhaul.

In this first of two programmes Peston examines how, thirty years ago, momentous decisions were taken which shaped the world we live in today. In China, Deng Xiao Ping opened up the country to foreign capitalists; in Britain and America, the free market revolution was unleashed by Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan. The Party's Over compares the lives of workers in a Chinese company with their co-workers in Britain.

Robert Peston interviews bankers, politicians and economists, and concludes that the boom we enjoyed before the crash was based on an illusion, and that the world's economy is now so unbalanced that in the West we face a sobering wake-up call.

In the second programme Peston asks how Britain can compete in the new world economic order. After years of living beyond our means the country surely needs to wean itself off the consumer society, but doing so threatens our retail dependent economy. In Germany the model of thrift and investment, far from the quick buck mentality of the City of London, has produced a powerful manufacturing and exporting economy that Britain, once so proud of its modern finance based approach, is desperate to imitate.

It is a long road to rebalancing the British model and with the Eurozone crisis still threatening further financial armageddon, Peston asks whether we are in for decades, rather than years, of sluggish growth. Featuring interviews with senior economists, bankers and politicians, as well as the ordinary people in several countries, whose livelihoods depend on the outcome of this vast economic reordering of the world.

Watch the full documentary now (playlist - 2 hours)

704
7.98
12345678910
Ratings: 7.98/10 from 41 users.

More great documentaries

280 Comments / User Reviews

Leave a Reply to Chirst Pastafarian Cancel reply

  1. A good documentary that relays the important message, that the 1st world countries have been living high on the hog, from the backs of slave labor in 3rd world countries, and now that the tables have turned,(every empire crumbles) we need to shape up, if we hope to maintain our standard of living. (did I miss anything?)
    Since humanity appears incapable of creating a system that doesn't rely on war, and exploitation, the only solution to the materialist is to start another war, justifying why the communists, socialists, nationalists, etc need to let global capitalism (fascism)run itself unregulated, and all will be well. (yeah, right)
    Since I am an idealist, (someone who sees what is possible, compared to what is) the only likely solution is real education,(not propaganda) and birth control. When there are no more slaves(impoverished) to exploit, only then will people see the benefits of cooperation over competition. Since I am a trekker,( not a materialist) I see the advantage of removing greed (evil) as the driving force in the world. (off it's pedastal, and underfoot where it belongs) Since greed is not an act of survival, it serves but one purpose. If you didn't feel the sting of evil, you would never develope the tools to combat it. (morality) Of course, the alternative is to selfishly join the dark side with Dick Cheney. (quicker, easier, more seductive - Yoda) In reality, we should all be living like kings and queens, (metaphorically speaking) but that will never occur as long as the average person has no knowledge regarding the history of money, or continues to live with the delusion that democracy, or freedom actually exist.

  2. Great Soundtrack ;)

  3. i do feel bad for the lack of rights they have and the american gouging of there system but they are cheating to keep there money value d
    own so it will blow up in there face eventually

  4. first off oil shortage is not a problem because by the time it gets to that point no one will have money paper money will be gone and most of our precious metals will be over seas as for china there yuan is so devalued that the price of things are very low 6 cents may be 1 yuan and 1 yaun will buy alot more in china than 6 cents in america (and i know some may be from the uk i apologize because i dont really keep up with euros.pounds and whatnot) thats why they took our jobs in the first place minimum wage gave big business a reason to go where its cheaper but everyone was so happy when wages went up people just think about how it affected them rather than looking at how it affected the world people dont understand that.

  5. Glass-Steagal .... used to separate stock market gambling from regular savings and loan banks. But, they do not tell you this. It is that simple... yet a 2 hour documentary (most of them) mentions it NOT ONCE.

    W A K E U P

  6. So really the question here is "how are we going to sustain our way of life?"

    We're not.

    Once energy yield goes into the negative investors will lose interest and stop investing. There is nothing else to hold up the infinite expansion that our world economy relies on, not agriculture not the chemical industry not anything. We are too reliant on petroleum in everything we do. Every aspect of production relies on oil to continuesly be pumped out of the ground and once production becomes more expensive than the money earned, production stops. Remember that big usiness relies on the continued profit of shareholders and as Freud once said " nothing can replace the edifice created by oil".

    There is no solution to the continuity of living in abundance. Technology is not going to save us if it relies on oil. Our entire infrastructure is based on non-renewable resources. The only thing we can do is replace monetary investment with life support investment. Seeds, land, and comunity cooperation are essential to survival. I'm not a doom sayer, I've simply discovered that our understanding of economics directly conflicts with the laws of physics and it is not possible to continue. China will soon figure this out when their bubbles start to POP aswell.

    1. Unfortunately I see no flaw in what you say; we are indeed so utterly reliant on oil. Although I am optimistic that after an initial massive shock to our civilization, lasting God-knows how many years, people will bounce back through innovation and technology. The amount of energy that hits and circles the earth each day is enormous, it's just not profitable to harness at the moment compared to oil.
      Going from that transition is the big question, like anticipating a chess strategy 15 moves ahead!

  7. I like this doco. On the US-Canada side of the Pond, we get an almost exclusive focus on the financial sector, and there isn't enough information on the victims, who are represented as statistics: percentage of unemployment; percentage of foreclosures; percentage on welfare or, in the US, on foodstamps.

    I also like the way in which China is approached -- not as the evil competitors of the US, or the manipulators of currency, etc., but rather as people. If the Chinese had a few basic social programs -- healthcare, modest government pension fund, daycare -- individuals and families could consume more. By contrast, what we need to do is work on personal, household, and student debt.

    As for our governments, in Canada Harper needs to stop fantasizing about buying a whole fleet of overpriced F-25, and the US -- whose Republicans are so obsessed with slashing spending -- should immediately slash their military spending in half, which would bring it back to 1999-2000 levels (i.e., still many times greater than any other country on the planet).

  8. The race to the bottom line meets ponzi schemes and theft is theft.

  9. So let me get this straight, the West needs to be more like China by saving more and stop buying the cheap products from the East. Well since China makes all those products wont their factories in response close down causing huge unemployment and a shrunken economy as they had in the 60's where as was pointed out 30 million people starved to death? If we don't buy their products they don't have jobs. If the U.S. becomes China what does China become? Nigeria!? So how does that problem get solved? oh well at least we"ll be ok right.

  10. Wow, I wonder how much time the production crew spent in China before coming up with this work of fiction.

    To sum up the premise of the show in a sentence or two:

    "The West got lazy and arrogant living on debt, while the hard working Chinese made us lots of cheap stuff and took all our money. They are the winners and we could learn a thing or two from them."

    So, time for me to put on my Mythbusters hat :)

    Point 1) The people who are getting rich in China are not the people working 60 hours a week in the iPhone or toy factory. No, it's the factory OWNER of course. Is he working harder, or is he exploiting the largest pool of cheap labour the world has ever seen?

    Point 2) China's economic "miracle": China suffered 3 civil wars in the twentieth century (I include the Cultural Revolution as it was a civil war in all but name) leaving it badly economically r*tarded. When the CCP finally allowed reforms to take place, the country had access to the cheap labour pool, which is only now showing signs of being exhausted. I call that exploitation.

    Point 3) China is a great place to be! Ok, I don't think they actually said that on the doc, but it was certainly implied. Having spent a long time here, I can tell you that the while the Chinese are a very patriotic people and have a "love" for the country in a deep abstract sense i.e. the idea of China and the Chinese people, if you actually ask them anything about the country/city/province they are in, they will quickly tell you about the harshness and injustices of it.

    Point 4) China is an empire. Here's the clue: they had an emperor for 5,000 years (including Mao). And in the Chinese Empire of 2012, it's the rich coastal cities that rule the roost, and it's people from the backward inland provinces that make the iPhones. While the BBC would never make a documentary singing the praises of a Western factory getting rich off the back of cheap Chinese labour, it's perfectly OK if they are the same skin colour as you!

    I could go on. I am not a China hater - I think the CCP is largely to credit for the economic boom, which has removed people from poverty. However, I want to be clear that it is not an economic miracle and there is little we in the west can learn, except perhaps to start rebuilding our own empires to access a cheap labour pool ;)

    The reason for the success of modern China, is that the CCP has managed to create a unified entity, through firm laws and good long term infrastructure planning, which as in turn allowed the coastal entrepreneurs to access the cheap inland labour.

    I rest my case.

  11. There is a truth that competition can bring about great improvements in humanity. Considering that we have natural wiring for empathy, and cooperation, it just as easy to understand that we will achieve far more by removing the competition paradigm from society.

  12. I think Greenspan is right. We won't let the free market function to prove him right though.

  13. How to enslave people in 3 steps:

    1. I scare you about some invisible threat, and if you claim you can't see it, I tell you it's because you are uneducated, because I, the economy-priest, know better;

    2. I tell you that other people in a fascist country which you probably will never visit, have a better life;

    3. I impose a similar fascism on your country, justified by step 1 and 2, and from which I will profit and you will toil for nothing.

    thanks Big Broth Channel.

  14. Why is the Communist Manifesto the only political text with a 90 page Preface written by a British Historian telling you what you should think about it before you read it? Read the Communist Manifesto-forget about what AJP Taylor says about it. Itis not a religion-it is a picture of reality and a prognositication,one far more accurate than Nostradamus ever was.
    Cheers,
    RR

  15. Lol Multiple problems with this doc, it dosent even mention how Alan Greenspan, whom may have supported free market ideals at one time but performed his job as fed chair in quite the opposite direction, had pushed intrest rates too low for too long incouraging individuals and jobs/ markets to spend too much and borrow too much. When we realise we can no longer pay the bills, the fed lowers the intrest rates to 0, giving banks essentially free money and using that extra money to bail out PRIVATE companys who should have gone bankrupt to begin with. I could go on but I sudgest to anyone still reading this to actually look at the history of our nations central bank for more answers, how far down the rabbit hole will you go.

  16. We should not focus our energy on analyzing the past, instead start working on our and our countries future.
    I am living now for 3 years in China and make here my degree in Chinese Economy, no place is perfect and not everything is as "green" as the movie shows, but the direction fits really well. The ambitions of the Chinese people is great and when I see the attitude of my classmates is amazing and not to underestimate.

    1. yeah you're right , stop analyzing the past so we can make the same mistakes over and over...and i feel sorry for the chinese for what they are going through

  17. i agree with toddep23,China is heading towards a serious financial meltdown.Their financial institutions are rotten.

  18. I would be careful before declaring china as the big winner here. It looks like they could be experiencing some big problems themselves very soon

  19. Good documentary. The main thing I took issue with is the continual references to Chinese people working for far less than their Western counterpart. I wanted to shout "But our cost of living is way higher. We CAN'T work for 1/4 the salary!!!". Not one mention of the cost of property in the UK. Rents and mortgages are the reason we can get 4 times the salary on paper, yet be no better off.

    The Chinese people in the film appeared to be living a lifestyle comparable to the Western counterpart. Decent accomodation, good food, electronic goods, designer clothes. And they are saving too! I don't believe for one second that we are somehow "saving averse". Everybody outside of the top 10 or 15% or so has got squeezed more and more over the past 30 years. After we've paid the cost of our house, the huge energy bills and rapidly increasing food costs, we simply have nothing left.

    Also, interesting that we have now had our own "Failed Economic Experiment". It's not just the crazy communists who let ideology rule over reality. We had a 30 year experiment of neo-liberal policies that has failed.

    Which leads me to one other issue I had with the film. We didn't ALL believe in the "miracle growth" based on debt. Myself and many of my peers have been skeptical of the free market policies since day 1 of Margaret Thatchers reign. There have been regular warnings by economic writers in the media over all of this time. Some of us WERE listening! It always seemed to me that an economy based on huge profits merely by gambling and shifting money from A to B could never work in the long run.

    The way forward? Back in the late 70's, one of the recommended books on my college course was called "Britains Economic Problem: Too Few Producers" (by Eltiss & Bacon). Prophetic, eh!

    We need to produce. Production was behind China's miracle, not free market financial chicanery. Sadly, we have an entrenched super-rich elite who turn their noses up at actually making things. Financing, Managing and Consulting has all the status (and wealth) here, not Making and Creating. It just doesn't *do* for one to dirty one's hands this way!

    PS one final comment: a line in the film about government spending more yet earning less from tax income leading to debt. How could tax be less during an 'apparent' boom? Ah yes, the tax breaks given to the wealthiest. This seems a deeper underlying problem. Once upon a time, the wealthiest paid the highest taxes, effectively funding the state. With the tax breaks, this no longer happened , so government had to borrow. And of course they borrowed from those with cash to invest - the richest! The government debt isn't all owed to China, not by a long way.

    1. do you actually think that the chinese way of living compares to the uk ????? wow i think you are just saying this for your conscience ..can't believe a few images of a tiny percent of the population (1.3 billion and rising ) convinced you of this...the west is able to have the prosperous life that it has because of their misery and the rest of the third world (s america, africa, great deal of asia) and it's always been that way !!!!!!!!!!!!

  20. ash1234567 - Most of what you say I agree with. Not sure if the Capitalist wealth will survive intact. A lot of the wealth is in the form of debt being owed. Personally I think it is in there interest to make sure we all have good jobs and can pay our debts, otherwise we don't buy their goods. If everyone is poor a lot of rich are go down the tubes with them simply because they will have lost their customers. The debt crisis may be a desperate attempt to keep the ball rolling as long as it can roll. Personally I'm into eastern spirituality and that works for me. When you're happy real needs are few. Haven't got to the point where I can meditate in cave for 30 years :)

    1. If you haven't seen it already watch Argentina's economic collapse on this site. Its probably shows what will happen in the future, is happening to other first world countries. Argentina a previous first world country basically got raped.

      But I guess your right no point trying to predict or worry about the future, just gotta live in the present and enjoy your life.

  21. One Global Non-Profit Bank could wipe out the existing slave based, debt driven disgrace we call the 'economy'. It would change life as we know it for everyone, bar NONE. We have the computers and the ability, yet we act as though all is helpless. Can YOU get over your ego and privilege driven carnal, greedy, two faced, back stabbing, war mongering minds? The human race is a total disgrace to itself, and WE think we are normal and society is fine. Greed should be a mental illness. Greed is for royalty and their friends. I hope the status quo is destroyed by their own hands, as these perverts continue to rape everyone. The sad part is people are the problem because they perpetuate the madness by participating. The, "it's not my problem" mental illness continues because they are not being killed by our banking system. I see NOTHING civilised on this planet and am disgusted with so called leaders, when they are nothing less than sociopaths with power and a brain dead populace who continue to use their masters money, like pathetic scum. Every day at least 22,000 children die because we need to make profit.
    If YOU think the system is rotten, then explain why so few have the guts to walk away from this system of evil?

    A great man once said, "Do not call me Lord, if you do not do what I say!"

  22. A great documentary on British economic history is Adam Curtis's the Mayfair set. It's about the evolution of the free market and the mover's and shakers that created the world we now live in. It's about the investors and the invention of high risk high yield junk bonds that resulted in the takeover and dismantling of companies simply for a quick profit. The Mayfair set is on this site.

  23. To be completely honest, an economic collapse is the best thing that can happen to us at this point.

    I'm personally a lot more worried about the Solar Activity in the next few years etc.

  24. I am a monkey and damn proud of it.

    1. I've descended from a long line of great apes.

      I find it hard to live up to that heritage. I'm only a good ape.

  25. Interesting but it doesn't deal enough with the real core of the problem.

    De-regulation is a red herring. Gaps between rich and poor are perhaps a symptom of the problem but have little to do with the cause.

    The core problem is central banking. The Fed, the Bank of England, and other banks have kept interest rates artificially low, as the program has mentioned. This has meant borrowing was cheap so everyone went into debt. It discouraged saving since you didn't get any interest. It created the Dot Com and Housing Bubbles. These distortions of the economy eventually had to be put right -- the bubbles burst.

    Central banking is an element of a controlled economy. We got rid of price controls earlier on in the West but we left price controls on the price of money. Greenspan might have been a follower of free-marketer Ayn Rand earlier on in his life but in his role as central banker he was closer to a Soviet central committee member.

    The inflation of the money supply has probably been the main culprit in developing disparity between rich and poor over the last decades because inflation favours the rich and taxes the poor.

    The problem is really that the market is not free enough. We need to get rid of government control of the monetary system. Governments will always inflate because they try to satisfy political interests. A gold based currency takes it out of their hands.

  26. Good thing this is via internet, I'm pretty sure there would be bodies littering the floor by now :P

    1. I heard myself say that same phrase on religious doc.
      It proves to me that discorde is fueled by religion and money...take that away and we'd all be happy monkeys (i meant apes)...lolol
      az

    2. I like being a monkey.

    3. me too...i am good at it!
      az

    4. And politics! (and money) And sex! (and money) And food! (and money) And _____ ! (and money)
      Seems we're weighed down our entire lives with the wrong kind of change! (lol)

    5. Don't forget money.

    6. I swear to you that right after I read this, I got up to go downstairs for a bottle of water. I went by my daughter's room and she was playing "Money" on Guitar Hero, lol.

  27. Heres my 2 cents.

    I agree with Mr. Wong on many points; specifically that the Far East have been more dominant on the planet in modern history than any other race.

    America has only been a power at all in the last century at best.

    But anyway, realistically speaking. Look at the Chinese: they work, study and work a lot more than the average american.

    When I was at University in Toronto, the Chinese would be studying while everyone else was drinking & partying. They usually had the highest grades. They were hungry for knowledge, hungry for work. With that culture, you can't lose.

    American's consume far more drugs, they have proportionately the highest number of prisoners & their entertainment industry is perhaps the only thing that they truly export (once again reflects on their leisure vs. labour proportion).

    P.s: I'm Russian & i'm ashamed to say that my country-men are no good example either. We drink, have high crime rates & are generally lazy. Even though we are extremely racist, the Chinese in Russia usually flourish, despite all odds. They learn our language, learn our trades & beat us at it.

  28. And look at this. Reuters 17 Jan 2012.

    "It's a clear signal to investors, China's cheap labor is fading into the past and will never be back".

    "As far as I know, many plants here are relocating to places like Vietnam and Cambodia--simply for cheap labor".

    Ching Jiansan, Guangdong Academy of Social Sciences.

    Now what did I say just yesterday. "If we shift our manufacturing to any number of countries willing to do so, China will have big problems and not just economic."

    Wonder how I got that right.

    1. Based on my understanding, this doc isn't really US vs. China.

      Its East vs. West ideologies/philosophies.

      Isn't Vietnam in the East? Cambodia?

      Doesn't really change the fact that 'The West Went Bust' does it? :-)

    2. First of all I'm with you - Stop SOPA.

      It is not East vs. West. It is not US vs. China either. My premise is that there is a great difference between perception and reality. There are problems in China that don't seem to make it into discussions such as this. I'm just shedding light on those problems.

    3. Well thank you for the enlightenment good sir :-)

      I wish it was little less obvious than:

      "It's a clear signal to investors, China's cheap labor is fading into the past and will never be back".

      "As far as I know, many plants here are relocating to places like Vietnam and Cambodia--simply for cheap labor".

      Yes, the forces of Economics will always look for the cheaper alternative...So? What else is new? *yawn*.

      I think its best to stay on the topic of the documentary as this debate can go on crazy tangents as it already has. And I really think that the focus of this doc is the cultural/philosophical difference between the East & the West.

      p.s: At one point America atleast had its freedoms & liberties. Now i'm not sure where i'd be more free; The US or China - especially if SOPA gets passed.

    4. I am on topic. I do my research. And you'll soon see that it is not "yawn".

      What most people don't realize is that Tiananmen Square was kicked off by unrest concerning inflation and lack of jobs. Deja Vu all over again as Yogi Berra would say.

    5. Tiananmen Square? lol

      Look at the occupy movement in every city in America going on NOW. Why? Inflation & lack of jobs. Tiananmen was local. Occupy is National.

      Deja Vu much? :-)

    6. No the Occupy movement is not about inflation because there is virtually no inflation here. Our inflation is being exported to China. Jobs? Well could be, but the main point of Occupy is that our wealth is being held by a very small minority (1%). This is why the term the 99%ers is being used.

      Tiananmen was anything but local. Don't know how you came to that conclusion.. This is what the Chinese government fears most - another Tiananmen Square.

    7. The occupy movement is because elitist, dominant groups have led the general populace to a situation where they are not able to realize themselves - get work, live freely, & ultimately challenging their liberty on a systemic mass scale.

      Exactly what happened at Tiananmen sq - elitist groups in China were living the dream while the young people had no hope.

      As for inflation, cost of living has been rising consistently in the US. I see what you are trying to say about 'exporting' inflation but there is still a leak over.

      Inflation isn't really the point anyway. The point is, the 'average' man got screwed over to the point where it boiled over; reached a critical mass of social injustice. The analogy works.

      As for the local vs. national magnitude - its simple. There weren't wide-scale protests all through China (granted they were harsher in quenching them), as there are in the US. Virtually every major city in the US has the movement.

      Also Tiananmen square was PRIMARILY students. Occupy isn't. It cannot be attributed to any age/class. People who were middle-class yesterday are on the street today and at "Occupy" Tomorrow.

      What i'm trying to say in all this; is what you 'warn' MAY happen in China is ALREADY happening in the US. Right now.

      And as for the argument of rising labour costs in China - I don't buy it. China is like a continent, the amount of people living below the poverty line who will be willing to work for FOOD is in the many many millions.

      Adilrye; Yes I agree. They have effectively taken over all aspects of production. The computer you type on is Chinese as well as the chair you sit on. Their middle-class alone is the size of the US.

      p.s: lakhotason are you American? I am not trying to pour salt on the wound or be a dick - just being a realist.

    8. Yes Timur, I am an American. What I have posted are only my opinions based on what I try to learn. I understand that if I take a view unlike others' views, I know what is coming. Yet I will read and ponder a reasonable response, and you raise a number of valid points.

    9. The point is, China will not be the cheap manufacturer for that much longer, they're investing in truly productive and profitable economic sectors, using the money they have now to do so. This is a good thing for them, and that's why I definitely believe they'll challenge the US economy in the future for global dominance. If they aren't already.

  29. ....Absolutely right "Phillip Wong," I couldn't agree with you more, I’m a whity, (Greek-Cypriot 'father' and Irish 'mother' decent, both these countries are renown for being friendly peoples) I was born & educated in the UK, (now living in Taiwan '11 years' and married to a Taiwanese lady and have one beautiful daughter) you forgot about the whity's stealing: South Africa, India, (but failed) N-America, Bermuda, Granada, Jamaica, Australia, New Zealand, Northern Ireland, Rhodesia, Falklands island, Canada, Singapore, Israel, (but failed) Turkey, (had war with, but were beaten) Hong Kong, (made a lease i think, or was forcible?) Tasmania and more I forgot to mention, all done by my control freak, land grabbing country, the white man steals by being either a friendly approach, (missionaries in Africa for example) or by force. I feel real ashamed in what my country had done in the past, I didn’t see China ever stealing anybodies country, just this Tibet thing, but that’s not stealing, it’s trying to impose their way of religion or thinking. My saying; “Where ever the White man goes, death and destruction surly follows!”

    I have lived in Taiwan 11 years and 1 year in Indonesia, I have found that the people here are civilized, in the UK a complete different story, HOOLIGANS! Smashing shop windows for the hell of it, slashing car tires for the hell of it, punching or spiting at people in the street, beating up people if they just even look at some one, (Hey you, what the F*** are you staring at?!) making fun of people, (disabilities, color , or slow thinking etc) football hooliganism.

    There are loads more, but the last one to mention, (and this really pisses me off) SARCASIM! The most sarcastic beings in the universe! This is the main point in my desertion of the Western culture, yes DESERTION I say, I NEVER EVER came across any of those mentioned in the above bad dealings mentioned in Taiwan! 11 years and nothing! I’m still in shock to this day! Just goes to show, who is civilized and who isn’t. I just wished that I came here 30 or 40 years ago! What a sensible people I live with now ? I shall never return to the UK, (Never been back since living here!) but I do miss the English countryside, there are always some sacrifices to be made when giving something up, I surly miss the beautiful English countryside?. There are some good people in the UK, but few!

    1. dude I been in south korea now for 4 months. These guys treat all the time as foreigner and I didn't feel comfortable in that country. But in general were very nice, but I think same as balkan people as I am serbian but live in slovenia. all best

  30. we have someone debating by quoting magazine articles and saying 14 trillion in debt is power. Printing dollars to buy your own debt is power. Having an open discount window to allow institutions and govt's to buy your debt is power and to try to retort with a website showing and educating everyone is banned? Its the debt clock for the US with a .org .

    this whole thing is pointless with your overseeing and picking and choosing what gets to be debated.

    Useless. TOTALLY

  31. Vlatko
    why do you not allow someone to post the debt clock for the US in debate???????????

  32. PRICE SYSTEM:

    Any social system whatsoever that effects its distribution of goods and services by a system of trade or commerce based on commodity evaluation effected by means of debt tokens, or money, debit cards, et cetera.

    A Price System may be either a fixed Price System where prices are set by a dictatorial government or it may be a free Price System where prices are left to float freely as determined by unregulated supply and demand. Or it may be a combination of both with a mixed Price System.

    The term Price System must not be confused with such terms as profit system, or capitalist system. The factor of ownership does NOT alter the mechanics of operating a Price System, and it may be added in passing, that unless it be in some remote and primitive community, none other than Price Systems exist at the present time.

    All governments on the earth, now are Price System tyrannies, whether they are autocratic, fascistic, republican, socialistic, or a hybrid combination of two or more of these. The present governments of the United States and Canada are goulashes of all these elements.

    Technocracy makes no compromise with the Price System. Technocracy makes no compromise at all, for compromise in any direction whatsoever would defeat the purpose of Technocracy.

  33. @Philip Wong

    Nitpicking....
    - At the time the Chinese invented the compass, (somewhere in the span of 2000BC and 1000AD), if there was any kind of patent law, it would have long expired by the time the English invented the dry compass around 1300ad, 100 years before the first circumnavigation. Patent laws before 1995 last 17 years, while those after are 20 years.
    I am afraid the technology was not stolen, It may have been 'liberated' but the technology was free for development.

    - We can credit the industrial revolution to electricity and the steam and diesel engines. Not so much paper, although without paper I suppose they would have had to carve their designs and do the math on a wax tablet or slate board with chalk.

    - "You have no idea how the real world works!"
    I / We all live and work in it, I think I have a pretty good idea how it affects me and those around me and I'm damn sure some of these folks you have been smart-mouthing have a far firmer grasp on the politics and history than I ever will and, evidently, more than you. Snoots like yourself that have never wanted for anything are the ones that have no idea how it works. Your world is 2 dimensional, numbers, facts, studies. Come down here to my level where we have worked the earth, tended and hunted animals, produced and moved goods and provided our blood and sweat to the whim of the upper class at one time or another to eek out a living.

    - Do you have any idea what a nuclear missile is ?
    A modern nuclear weapon around 2400lbs can produce an explosion in excess of 1MT (that's Millions of tons of TNT). Hiroshima and Nagasaki ranged around 13-18 KT (Little Boy) and 21KT (Fat Man), don't forget that you are also dealing with an explosion, implosion then radiation, which has lasting effects for generations. Suffice to say, they are so horrible and destructive that they have only been used in war TWICE in the span of 67 years. The rest is posturing and flexing military muscle.
    The policy of trying to prevent an attack by a nuclear weapon from another country by threatening nuclear retaliation is known as the strategy of nuclear deterrence. This is why a nuclear war will not happen, we know what happens and it stays the hand that would press the button. I am glad it will never be yours.

    I direct you to the related wiki pages for the technical (search 'Nuclear weapon', and 'Manhattan Project' in google), from there you can do your own research. You can also search Fat Man Bomb or Little Boy Bomb to check my facts.

    1. Paul,
      Western Europeans even toward the end of 1800 century was a hellish place. You have over population, and the land is highly unproductive. People moving from the country rural area to the cities, and cities was dirty, and deathly. By one count, one third of the people in the city died( I do have references if you want it) within a generation. Some scholars say great plague might have jump started the enlightenment, because 50% was death, and this increased the real wealth for those who remain. For most of history, most people just don 't want to be starved. With the expansion of the Mongolian empire, it brought, and spread with them farming innovation from China. When people are well feed, European have time on their hands to specialize, and thus began division of labor( economic growth!).
      The more I study the rise of western Europe, the more I realize how much of a copycat you people are( but every one is at that time).

      I don 't need to be in debt to give advise about debt. In the current state of the world, you have "all" the elements in place that can easily lead to a nuke war! Most of this his to do with the diffusion of knowledge( internet), capital mobility, and economic growth of the rest of the world. There are more smart people now than anything time in history. Iran produces top physicists, and have professors at mit. We know that indignity, and helplessness cause terrorism. Because of the US invasion, it creates a whole lot of terrorists. Within a generation, they are going to grow up, and seek to destroy the US. From Latin America to the middle east, and Africa, there is a general distrust of the west. The only place that is still a lap dog of the west is East Asia( mainly because of the military bases, and they need the US-EU market for their exports).

  34. so philip wong where is the sort of balanced documentaries from China? It might have been an imperialistic 300 years and its ending but at least there is a pretty solid alternative discourse from the insight growing, and from all the suffering and malign consequences brought upon the rest of the world from the west that is the one good thing that should be charished..btw this is not the place that you'll find strong headed idiots to counter shout you down so that you will reinforce your views..find a racist site (like maybe fox news,you'll guaranteed feel better about your ideas)

  35. It might be time to tap out Mr Wong !

  36. Pfft Americans invented more things in the last 200 years then China has in 2000... China only knows how to steal now... Name some things China has invented recently? Beside spying equipment...
    Its easy to make things cheaper with prison and child labor...
    China been backwards for a 1000 years... Only in the last 50 have they made any progress (with the help of stealing the west's ideas)
    So not much to be all that proud of.

    1. Here is my reply to another guy:

      Let see....you are not very good with history, right? This is one of those "my daddy is better than yours " post.... I am not a racist. In any case, I just want to clear up some points( for the fun of it):

      Western European was able to circumnavigate the global, because European stole Chinese compass, and never ask for permission, and give patent fees. It is a well know fact that the mongols stole Chinese inventions, and pass it along to the Indians, and Persians in their empire expansion. Or maybe it is that marco polo a**hole that stole the Chinese patent.

      Actually, I do admire some Geek philosophers. Non-sinitic people have highly evolved rationalistic scholarly cultures( semitic jew , Persians, Indian philosophy ).This is a well know fact. Here is the thing tho, I don 't think the Greeks had a monopoly on abstract rationalistic philosophy. The Jews, and Indian also had it. Also higher math is common in ancient world( China, Indian, Persia, Egyptians hell, even native Americans), but what Greek did( or rather Euclid) is trying to derive everything using axioms, and precise definitions. Irony is Euclid might not even be white. He is probable more middle eastern, since he travel a lot to Egypt, and compile the result of previous mathematicians( probably from the near east).
      The earliest practice of the scientific method by the Greeks is I guess thales, and Aristotle, but are what they do science? I don' t think. Science is an institutional, social movement that really began in the enlightment, with people like Newton, Bacon. I say it started in the 1700s, in Europe.
      About Chinese inventions, and superiority:
      Here are some of the inventions of China: paper, gunpowder, compass, printing (woodblock and movable type), fire lance, land mine, paper money, rudder, naval mine, hand cannon, multi staged rocket, plow, multiple-tube seed drill, bell, dagger-axe, fork, cultivation of millet, noodle, rowing oar, cultivation of rice, sericulture, cultivation of soybean, archaeology, belt-drive, blast furnace, borehole drilling, bristle toothbrush, cast iron, chemical warfare using mustard smoke and lime, use of chromium, chopsticks, crankhandle, crossbow, football, recognition and treatment of diabetes, drawloom, endocrinology, fishing reel, flame thrower, forensic entomology, free reed aerophone, gas cylinder, hand grenade, horse harness, horse collar, heavy moldboard iron plow, india ink, junk ship, kite, symbols and use of negative numbers in math, pinhole camera, playing cards, pound lock, restaurant menu, toilet paper, seismometer, steel made from cast iron through oxygenation, suspension bridge using iron chains, tea, tofu, wheelbarrow, underwater salvage operations, winnowing fan, universities...among others!
      Also of note: China had advanced agricultural technology that europe didnt adopt till 1000 years later. It is with this agricultural technology that Britain adopted that led directly to them having the agricultural revolution. And without the agricultural revolution they would never had had the industrial revolution. So part of the Britain's industrial advancement was based on Chinese technology. The modern world owes a lot to Chinese inventions and technology that we still use today. As I said China was the leader in science and technology, military technology, It had the largest economy in the world and dominated for over 2000 years. Up until 1820 China's gdp accounted for 30% of the worlds gdp. As a comparison, the USA had peak share or world gdp of 32% in 1985.

      If that makes him feel better, then more power to him.I want to make a few points regarding China's past economy and technology. According to Angus Maddison from at least 1st century to the late 19th century either China or India had been the largest economy in the world. As a matter of fact ,in the 1st century the Han dynasty's economy was larger than that of the Roman Empire, even though the populations of both countries were roughly the same. Also in technology Han dynasty was far ahead of the Roman Empire( Science and Civilization in China by Joseph Needham, The Genius of China by Robert Temple).Also Robert Temple indicated that more than half the inventions that laid the foundations for the modern world came from China. I'm going to list just a few of the past Chinese inventions that greately influenced Europe. Those are compass, paper, printing(both woodblock and MOVABLE TYPE), mechanical clock,differential gear, Siemen's steel process, not only gunpowder but also gun, cannon,rocket, bomb, land and sea mines. Can you imagine the modern military without these Chinese inventions? I also can say the European overseas colonial expansion and Renaissance could not have been possible without these Chinese inventions. This Chinese technological advantage over Europe lasted until the end of the 18th century. Even though Europe overtook China in math and science in the 17th century, China was still ahead of Europe in technology until the end of the 18th century because the progress in science was very minimal thus contributing very little to the advancement of technology in Europe. Adam Smith in 1776 stated that China was ahead of Europe in technology in his book, Wealth of The Nation. Europe did not overtake China in economy and technology until the 19th century when the faster pace of the Industrial Revolution took place. According to a noted economic historian Paul Bairoch, in 1750 the per capita income of China was higher than that of Europe as a whole, on a par with the those of the leading European countries such as Britain and Netherlands. Angus Maddison later agreed with Bairoch's conclusions on China's per capita income( on page 75 of The Eastern Origins of Western Civilization by John M.Hobson). So Europe did not eclipse China in terms of both per capita income and size of GDP until the 19th century. The last 200 year domination by the West was an aberration in the long running economic and technological history of the world. What's happening now is both China and India are returning to their rightful places they occupied so long, prior to the 19th century.

      ...Do you want more?

      O.. Yes, Anglo-Sexons are slave, and pawn of the Hun, which is a pure Northeast Asian people. The Whole Russian landmass belong to the mongol empire, and you whitey stole it.

      The whole reason east Asia did not invent that many things in the last 200 years is because of poverty, and civil war, Jack.

    2. ....Absolutely right Philip i couldn't agree with you more, I’m a whity, (Greek-Cypriot 'father' and Irish 'mother' decent, both these countries are renown for being friendly peoples) I was born & educated in the UK, (now living in Taiwan '11 years' and married to a Taiwanese lady and have one beautiful daughter) you forgot about the whity's stealing: South Africa, India, (but failed) N-America, Bermuda, Granada, Jamaica, Australia, New Zealand, Northern Ireland, Rhodesia, Falklands island, Canada, Singapore, Israel, (but failed) Turkey, (had war with, but were beaten) Hong Kong, (made a lease i think, or was forcible?) Tasmania and more I forgot to mention, all done by my control freak, land grabbing country, the white man steals by being either a friendly approach, (missionaries in Africa for example) or by force.

      I feel real ashamed in what my country had done in the past, I didn’t see China ever stealing anybodies country, just this Tibet thing, but that’s not stealing, it’s trying to impose their way of religion or thinking. My saying; “Where ever the White man goes, death and destruction surly follows!” I have lived in Taiwan 11 years and 1 year in Indonesia, I have found that the people here are civilized, in the UK a complete different story, HOOLIGANS! Smashing shop windows for the hell of it, slashing car tires for the hell of it, punching or spiting at people in the street, beating up people if they just even look at some one, (Hey you, want the F*** are you staring at?!) making fun of people, (disabilities, color , or slow thinking etc) football hooliganism.

      There are loads more, but the last one to mention, (and this really pisses me off) SARCASIM! The most sarcastic beings in the universe! This is the main point in my desertion of the Western culture, yes DESERTION I say, I NEVER EVER came across any of those mentioned in the above bad dealings mentioned in Taiwan! 11 years and nothing! I’m still in shock to this day! Just goes to show, who is civilized and who isn’t. I just wished that I came here 30 or 40 years ago! What a sensible people I live with now :-) I shall never return to the UK, (Never been back since living here!) but I do miss the English countryside, there are always some sacrifices to be made when giving something up, I surly miss the beautiful English countryside :-( There are some good people in the UK, but few!

    3. Well, if you don 't like where you live, get the hell out! Personally, I am not what of those blacks that love to blame white people for slavery, because I don 't care. I see blacks, whites, middle eastern, south east asians as being the same, equally "I don 't care". If whites slaughter every blacks, I "don 't care". I am not racist, but "i don 't care". Tibet is part of China. Why? Russia belongs to the Mongolian empire. Personality, I do like to see people I don 't care for destroy themselves, but in general, I don 't care enough to continue with witty retorts.

    4. You see, what little wild animals you are? Lacking history, and twisted facts to support your racist theory. You are typical for your people. The Huns should have purge your whole race. In fact, It would be nice for the Muslims to nuke Europe to the ground. Why? Because your people can only be tamed by violence. Just like wild breeds.

    5. Dunning-Kruger effect...

      You, Wong.

      You.

      (Think it through... It could be a compliment!)

    6. For the last time, I am not racist. I think Chinese ought to learn from the western Europeans in the last 200 years(The height of your race), and Jewish scholarly traditions. The west has come upon certain institutions that allow them to stand in the shoulders of genius. The east ought to only taking the best elements of the world. The rest of western European history are relatively backward. I urge to stop this racial mixing, and cultural imperialism.

    7. @phillip wong,

      I will ask you to stop with the racist tone. Exchange facts, ideas, arguments.

  37. I liked this doc, I think it is a good insight into big global economic movements of the past 30 or so years that explains the economic situation of today. Brief and almost "textbook" like? Yes. But still pretty solid.

  38. The problem I see with the model they propose in this series is that it all has to balance out somehow. If you produce, you need buyers, if everyone overproduces, we have a global surplus of stuff and factories close cause nobody can buy it all. Same problem in the end.

  39. Oh god I really wish you are not one of us Wong...
    You, my friend, did not answer my call of not "representing us". And as a matter of fact, attending philosophy class does give you a lot of superiority isn't it? being not part of our typical engineering/comp science student led you to another extreme. And I mean no disrespect to UCLA, but the top chinese philosophy major students are usually studying in better places.

    From my experience of living in china 20 years, you are never the kind of people that will gain any sort of power.(by which your propositions are laughable)And by what crippled eye have you seen anyone with radical nonsense just stepped out of ivory tower could lead China or anywhere in the world? You are blinded by too much nonsense in both philosophy and superiority, not all of them are suitable for a fragile greedy mind.

    I'm not patronizing the westerners, actually Im quite an authoritarian supporter(which your democratic-facist ideals are absurd to me), but your points are going too far to the extent that even I must oppose you as a fellow chinese.
    And, oh, never bring up the history to humiliate other races, it will make everyone looking bad, and everlast the arguments.

    1. Christ,

      One of those Chinese sickness Mao want to purge is these meaningless pursuit of brand name schools with no aspiration other that graduating from a brand name school. Are you one of those types? It is pathetic. I actually got my degree at Stanford( Is it a brand name?). I truly do enjoy the subject. I never said I represent Chinese people. I am merely a political-philosophy ivory Tower type that tells people what is going to happen in the next 100 years. I predict nuclear war, due to an escalation of tension.

      I am an ivory tower type, and when people want to win a war, they want people like me to give them some perspective, because I am in those "ivory tower" type universities. I am not good at kissing asses, or being a lap dog to anyone, so I am probable not going to have a long life in politics, or Chinese politics for that matter.

      I am not making fun of any race, but just want to get something right. The current level of white worshiping by Asians need to stop. The consequence is not good for us. The only way is to divide the races, incubate our industries, and develop our brand of soft power, instead of hegemonically dominated culturally by whiteys.

      The "radical elements" will be forced. There are simple steps that once taken, would escalate into nuclear warfare. I want democracy in China, because the current government is weak. The whole world will be purge in a nuclear holy fire..

    2. Ok, this get this "straight" and "right", as you have claimed.
      First of all, being in here and talk that you got your degree from Stanford meaning that you are already in the "privileged" group. And I have no doubt that it is you who claimed that "you went to ivy". As a matter of fact I will never deny that the chinese who can sit here and talk in English are mostly privileged hypocrites, those who rather talk instead of doing something substantial, I myself included. Feeling special huh?
      And well, the key of success in Chinese politics is more than ass-kissing, you never know a lot of actual political figures dont you? Maybe you will be interested in reading about the promotion of Hu JinTao, he used to be the chief secretary in my province, Gui Zhou. The poorest province, slightly better than Shan Xi in the provincial capital.
      Who told you we worship the whites? and dont you find this is ironic that you are talking in English here? seriously, you sound like the typical oversea-Elite who has nothing better to do. and just FYI, the worshipping did happen in every east Asia country, but it is a dwindling tendency now, nobody needs to worship anybody, the same applies to the hippies.
      And just a personal, subjective point of view here, but I never thought that China will ever need Democracy, it has been tested in the town to village level, never worked. And we dont need more instability and this level of progression, I concern more about how to maintain a system instead of destorying it. I think you should have learnt this lesson now by the civil clashes of Lybia , post-Gaddafi clashes. The current system is too "weak"? Haven't you learnt your first lesson of politics in China? “????” is the policy which we have been holding these years, indoctrined by Den, a success so far except the problems like the south sea dispute.

    3. Yep, I am privileged( never had to work), and love to study. That is why I am not typical, and I never said I was. I study, and I see what is happening, and make predictions from what I know to what I don 't.

      Han Chinese people for the most part are a kiss ass people. Never confrontational, and always lay low. This makes for a easily conquest people. Taiwan kiss ass the Japanese. The Japanese, and Korea kiss ass whitey( part of it has to do with military bases) The only east Asian race that have any chance of dominating culturally is the mongols). I agree a little with Mao that there is some elements of Chinese culture( or is it genetics?) that need to be purged. If I have my way, every Chinese will be subjected to military, and physical combat to toughen them up. That is why fascism might not be so bad for China.

      I don 't want to piss people off, but I never had to live in any backwater province. I lived in HK, and Macau where I get to see the worst of Chinese mentality, and lots of Chinese people. After being in the west for so many years, and get to interact with whites, and blacks. I think I am better at making comparisons. Do not be fooled( which most Asians are), whitey are racist, aggressive, and genocidal. They are natural actors!!! I see them for what they are. East Asians are also pretty evil, but not genocidal. Anglo-Saxons-viking people can only be tamed by the war like, aggressive race, Mongols. My experience tells me that these races look up to power, and violence as natural. They take advantage of weakness, but look up to power. The rest of Asia need to study more western political science, and particularly study their racial aggressive tendencies. We should learn from it. We don 't want another century of humiliation again.

    4. No friend, being in the ivory tower and being privileged doesnt make you the perfect candidate for a prophet.
      The fact is that almost all of the greatest politicians in china are strikingly grief-stricken, having been into wars and incarcerations. Oh no, reading books and observing news doesnt make you any better. And if you really read this much book, you should have known about the chaos theory, the predictions are simply impossible.
      And Im sorry, laying low is part of our tradition, I dont see the reason why not if you know you know both you and your opponent has a "extra insurance" on hand. It really just less hypocritical than yelling peace and love.
      as for the "backwater province" part, I take that as an insult to all the mainland chinese people.
      Why? because I have been in both places, the mindsets are quite different when you grow up in Hongkong, in fact I doubt it if you can still read and speak alright in native tone. The people in HK simply dont have the restrictions and obedience that a mainlander should take, bear that in mind that we used to walk 5 mils just to get to the school. In fact there is just too much information unavailable on the internet, you can never judge by those "inside papers" until you become one of those, thus I seldom judge the fate of the world unless its about my hometown or my garbage can, that I can predict alright.
      Have you never heard of your comment about racial division? I have interacted with quite some people in the west, they could be manipulative, but you will find no fewer cases in our own kind. And--as a sober political science studier, you should've known better that countries are collective interest entities instead of a bunch of mind-boggled racists club fighter. I never trusted the theory on human nature,its just not that "realistic" to me.
      Indeed we need to study further lest another invasion come along with our weakening, but I doubt if your ideals will apply as a counter measure, or simply put ourselves on the moral low ground.

  40. China's growth depends on 1 thing. Energy in the form of oil and coal. Both are non-renewable resources. The more oil China uses inefficiently the faster oil will come to an end. Then it will be a rqace to the bottom when coal is depleated. China's economic power is as fleeting as all others. The good news is, Germany is already ahead in preparing for a world without oil and the central states of the US are their investment. The German model of long-term investment will pay off, the current financial policy of the world is geared more toward the quick buck and is doomed. Those second generation Chineese have a lot more to worry about than the current economic situation.

  41. a bbc production funded by the thieving ******* the bankers, or should i say the private investors. so you take an hour to illustrate how the west got in debt, with it being the persons fault for borrowing too much money (which the banks were more than happy to give), because we thought the free market would find a solution and because work has gone abroad thats why were suffering. nice try pr*cks.

    what this documentary fails to tell us, and this is the most important point is that in both the UK and the US for some reason is our incompetent power hungry greedy **** politicians allowed some rich ***** to purchase control of the central banks and to lend to both us and our government loans at interest. and it didnt stop there they then allowed these rich to implement a practice called fractional reserve banking where when money is deposited to banks they could then lend that money out up to 9 times, creating money from thin air, the legalization of counterfeiting.

    whats even worse is the government could through its treasury department create money to lend to the people at no interest, preventing us the people and our children who've not worked a day in the lives from from being indebted to these ******* schmucks for the rest of their lives.

    if u want to see a real documentary explaining this fully watch 'the money masters'. this documentary only serves to try and sway peoples opinion to who is responsible. this is the bankers, their irresponsible ******* greedy practices, fraud, theft and straight denial of anything being wrong in society.

    you havent seen anything yet, the **** is about to hit the fan this year, with more mortgage failures due to irresponsible lending, derivative trading and the collapse of commercial mortgage deals. combine this with the bank of england the federal reserve artificially suppressing interest rates you'd better brace yourselves for sharp inflation, this one is going to hit like a sunami, coz our government can't be bothered to warn us...in china theyre telling all their citizens to buy gold and silver, here, oh yeah keep consuming. go **** urselves.

    when this is all over the politicians, bankers, corporations the media prestitutes and any people involved in f--king the people over, your guna get f--kin linched.

    wake up people its all about the bankers and dont let them sway you any other way!

  42. Well, this one got hijacked quickly.

  43. Jack_Burton
    xaxaxaxaxaxaxaxa
    Fabric of Europe
    dont go there
    eu usa is doomed
    just fact

  44. Put a 50% Tariff on all Chinese imports. That would show them.

    1. 50% taxes on all american profits in China.

  45. I hope this is not bashing our face too hard...being too radical is never a chinese kind point of view, and perhaps Mr.Wong is the very few that would like to be "differentiated" from the others. I understand. Yet his statement started from waging "inevitable" nuclear wars to dropping nonsensical economic bombs and perhaps this is the fault of reading Steve Pinker too much. There is simply....too much reference from it, looking like a bunch of hypnotized saying. Just try not to represent "chinese" people too much, you look very much like an alternative version of those bogus "democratic fighters" or "oppressed falun gong(the right way of saying it) practitioners". And the creepiness of inviting people to real life, not a good sign when you are discussing things on the internet of a documentry comment board...
    Just save them for yourself buddy.

    1. Christ,
      I attended UCLA( a school with 40% east Asians) in my final year in college. In the four philosophy classes I attended, I can only remember meeting one Korean guy! There are no Chinese. The Chinese as a people are:

      1. Care/responsibility for family.

      2. practical, and non-ideological

      3. earning money to fulfill 1.

      4. Value wisdom, and history.

      I fully think Chinese, and to a lessor extend, the rest of East Asian ( Korea, Japan) represent the pinnacle of civilization, because of our perfected notion of "responsible" to family, and community.

      People like me are philosophy-political-history scholars/nerds. This puts me outside of any group. From my study, purely logical, amoral actions can lead to very counter-intuitive results. I don 't like massacres, but given East Asian inner superior to achieve, and western creed to maintain power, and lack of merits. The result is a conflict that would lead to a set of finite simple moves that would result in nuclear exchanges. If say the west want a trade sanction of food to a democratic China. This would lead to mass starvation. In a democratic China, hard liners like me will come into power. Directing investment toward war, and nukes. Calculating my rate of success, and reach the logical conclusion that the best option is spread nukes to Cuba, and Latin America, or any "groups".

      Mark my words:
      Nuclear war will happen in the next 100 years. I am 50% certain it will happen. It might even happen tomorrow. LOL. The spread of nuclear weapon, and power diffusion is certain to occur. The US neo-con is walking a very dangerous line. The financial, economic power of the world is moving to east Asia. The only way to win is competition based on merits, and I don 't think White people are smart enough to compete. This is why nuclear war will happen.

    2. Any civilization that names their kids after a piece of dropped silverware I LOL at. China will be lucky if they don't have a civil war in the next 10 years... They will fall faster then dominoes...

    3. We just have to see. I am more worry about western envy. LOL
      I am more worry about the west, and their own collapse. They want to be saved.

      How is "dropped silverware" different from Goldman?

    4. It's onomatopoeic?
      (Not that there's anything WRONG with that.)

    5. Something, wrong?

    6. Nothing, Wong. :)

    7. Ha..

      Kings to you.

    8. But the really critical thing to remember here is that you are not at all like Hitler...

      I'm sorry, buddy, but clearly YOU ARE a racial supremacist, without the facts to back up your assertions of East Asian superiority. And before you come at me with stats (and stereotypes!) about how your Aryan Race excels at math and science (and piano and violin playing, for good measure, probably, lol), you ought to bear in mind that, by your own admission (but really, that is, according to YOU...), East Asians are not by nature prone to conquering other peoples (while, at the same time, you wish them to engage in distributing nuclear weapons, and also wish the lands they "obtained" -since we cannot say conquered- 15 centuries ago be returned to them). But I ask you, in THAT case, WHY should that predilection, which I believe you exclusively attribute to white people, be left out of the definition of "what it takes" to compete?

      People like you, who think in these terms, are largely what is wrong with this world, whatever genetic material they're made up of.

    9. Who said East Asians cannot kick a**? I believe the Huns, and mongols are not exceptions. We had the largest empire in the world, if not for the English industrial revolutions, and imperialism. A puny 200 years. The Chinese were more advanced, and have the largest economy for the last 2000 years. That is pretty much accepted as a fact. Do you need references? I can prove it.

      What I said was there will most likely be war, and nuclear exchanges in the next 100 years. When I say white people cannot compete, I am saying white people will not be able to function in a technological economy. The Neo-con will gain power, and war monger. Chinese anticipate this, and preemptively spread nukes to Cuba, and all the US enemies. These are logical step that will happen. This comes from the study of political science, history, and rational choice theory.

    10. oh if only life could be broken down to such simple variables, you could be employed as a fortune teller.

    11. There will be war, and nuclear exchanges. The whole world will be bath in blood. Why? History, political science, and rational choice dictates a confrontation between superpowers, and there will be nuclear exchanges. Given what I know, It will happen.The current Chinese government is way too weak to do that, but soon, a uprising will overthrow it. Setting up a democratic government in China is the same as giving the neo-con full unrestricted presidential power in the US. I can assure you, the US, and Chinese government employ people like me all the time.

    12. Find your chi, and centre.

    13. Are you forgetting that it was Europeans who first circumnavigated the globe (started the Age of Exploration...), laid the foundations of Democracy, began the discipline of actual Science, developed higher mathematics, etc., etc., all well over a measly 200 years ago? We could go on and on with this list (with references, if you really want) but suffice it to say that Chinese civilization has not been nearly so advanced for at least the last 600 years. Never mind the Industrial Revolution! The early invention of firecrackers and toilet-paper, et al., while certainly commendable, is as nothing by comparison, however broad a swath of East Asia such things were spread out. I won't even get into much more recent achievements, which were largely the result of the innovation and creativity of the Caucasian Race, such as computers, Space Exploration, the Internet, etc., etc. Yes, I think white folks will be just fine (if we can get rid of the neocons... and we will!) in the modern, technological world, Mr. Wong...especially (if we go by history) if it comes down to a fight, since YOU seem pretty insistent on that.

      Racial purist? GAWD!... You guys are ALL just a bunch of GENIUSES, aren't you?

      Get over yourself, man. You're no better, or worse, than any of the rest of us. We're all in this sh-t together, is the way I look at it.

    14. Let see....you are not very good with history, right? This is one of those "my daddy is better than yours " post.... I am not a racist. In any case, I just want to clear up some points( for the fun of it):

      Western European was able to circumnavigate the global, because European stole Chinese compass, and never ask for permission, and give patent fees. It is a well know fact that the mongols stole Chinese inventions, and pass it along to the Indians, and Persians in their empire expansion. Or maybe it is that marco polo a**hole that stole the Chinese patent.

      Actually, I do admire some Geek philosophers. Non-sinitic people have highly evolved rationalistic scholarly cultures( semitic jew , Persians, Indian philosophy ).This is a well know fact. Here is the thing tho, I don 't think the Greeks had a monopoly on abstract rationalistic philosophy. The Jews, and Indian also had it. Also higher math is common in ancient world( China, Indian, Persia, Egyptians hell, even native Americans), but what Greek did( or rather Euclid) is trying to derive everything using axioms, and precise definitions. Irony is Euclid might not even be white. He is probable more middle eastern, since he travel a lot to Egypt, and compile the result of previous mathematicians( probably from the near east).
      The earliest practice of the scientific method by the Greeks is I guess thales, and Aristotle, but are what they do science? I don' t think. Science is an institutional, social movement that really began in the enlightment, with people like Newton, Bacon. I say it started in the 1700s, in Europe.
      About Chinese inventions, and superiority:
      Here are some of the inventions of China: paper, gunpowder, compass, printing (woodblock and movable type), fire lance, land mine, paper money, rudder, naval mine, hand cannon, multi staged rocket, plow, multiple-tube seed drill,   bell, dagger-axe, fork, cultivation of millet, noodle, rowing oar, cultivation of rice, sericulture, cultivation of soybean, archaeology, belt-drive, blast furnace, borehole drilling, bristle toothbrush, cast iron, chemical warfare using mustard smoke and lime, use of chromium, chopsticks, crankhandle, crossbow, football, recognition and treatment of diabetes, drawloom, endocrinology, fishing reel, flame thrower, forensic entomology, free reed aerophone, gas cylinder, hand grenade, horse harness, horse collar, heavy moldboard iron plow, india ink, junk ship, kite, symbols and use of negative numbers in math, pinhole camera, playing cards, pound lock, restaurant menu, toilet paper, seismometer, steel made from cast iron through oxygenation, suspension bridge using iron chains, tea, tofu, wheelbarrow, underwater salvage operations, winnowing fan, universities...among others!
      Also of note: China had advanced agricultural technology that europe didnt adopt till 1000 years later. It is with this agricultural technology that Britain adopted that led directly to them having the agricultural revolution. And without the agricultural revolution they would never had had the industrial revolution. So part of the Britain's industrial advancement was based on Chinese technology. The modern world owes a lot to Chinese inventions and technology that we still use today. As I said China was the leader in science and technology, military technology, It had the largest economy in the world and dominated for over 2000 years. Up until 1820 China's gdp  accounted for 30% of the worlds gdp. As a comparison, the USA had peak share or world gdp of 32% in 1985.

      If that makes him feel better, then more power to him.I want to make a few points regarding China's past economy and technology. According to Angus Maddison from at least 1st century to the late 19th century either China or India had been the largest economy in the world. As a matter of fact ,in the 1st century the Han dynasty's economy was larger than that of the Roman Empire, even though the populations of both countries were roughly the same. Also in technology Han dynasty was far ahead of the Roman Empire( Science and Civilization in China by Joseph Needham, The Genius of China by Robert Temple).Also Robert Temple indicated that more than half the inventions that laid the foundations for the modern world came from China. I'm going to list just a few of the past Chinese inventions that greately influenced Europe. Those are compass, paper, printing(both woodblock and MOVABLE TYPE), mechanical clock,differential gear, Siemen's steel process, not only gunpowder but also gun, cannon,rocket, bomb, land and sea mines. Can you imagine the modern military without these Chinese inventions? I also can say the European overseas colonial expansion and Renaissance could not have been possible without these Chinese inventions. This Chinese technological advantage over Europe lasted until the end of the 18th century. Even though Europe overtook China in math and science in the 17th century, China was still ahead of Europe in technology until the end of the 18th century because the progress in science was very minimal thus contributing very little to the advancement of technology in Europe. Adam Smith in 1776 stated that China was ahead of Europe in technology in his book, Wealth of The Nation. Europe did not overtake China in economy and technology until the 19th century when the faster pace of the Industrial Revolution took place. According to a noted economic historian Paul Bairoch, in 1750 the per capita income of China was higher than that of Europe as a whole, on a par with the those of the leading European countries such as Britain and Netherlands. Angus Maddison later agreed with Bairoch's conclusions on China's per capita income( on page 75 of The Eastern Origins of Western Civilization by John M.Hobson). So Europe did not eclipse China in terms of both per capita income and size of GDP until the 19th century. The last 200 year domination by the West was an aberration in the long running economic and technological history of the world. What's happening now is both China and India are returning to their rightful places they occupied so long, prior to the 19th century.

      ...Do you want more?

      O.. Yes, Anglo-Sexons are slave, and pawn of the Hun, which is a pure Northeast Asian people. The Whole Russian landmass belong to the mongol empire, and you whitey stole it. The Muslim conquest of Europe did not go to western Europe, because they are primitive. The Romans, and Eastern Europeans as sex slaves. Western Europeans( Celtic, Germanic race) are nothing in history. I am surprise that last 200 years go to you guys..

      Also, the recent white was more innovative is because most of east Asia was poor, and most never attended schools.

    15. I see I got under your racist skin, which was exactly my intention: Excellent!
      Actually, I don't minimize Chinese achievements, which are extremely impressive, but I don't overestimate them through bias, either; for example, by searching for Chinese sources in the achievements of other cultures. With that thought in mind, perhaps you should read a little book called 'March of the Titans: A History of the White Race'... From what I understand, its bias would chime very well with yours, on the opposite end of the spectrum. A kind of yang for your yin...

      Good day to you, sir.

      (And good luck in the Holy Thermonuclear Purging! Perhaps the Apes will take over from us, huh?)

    16. Let see....you are not very good with history, right? This is one of those "my daddy is better than yours " post.... I am not a racist. In any case, I just want to clear up some points( for the fun of it):

      Western European was able to circumnavigate the global, because European stole Chinese compass, and never ask for permission, and give patent fees. It is a well know fact that the mongols stole Chinese inventions, and pass it along to the Indians, and Persians in their empire expansion. Or maybe it is that marco polo a**hole that stole the Chinese patent.

      Actually, I do admire some Geek philosophers. Non-sinitic people have highly evolved rationalistic scholarly cultures( semitic jew , Persians, Indian philosophy ).This is a well know fact. Here is the thing tho, I don 't think the Greeks had a monopoly on abstract rationalistic philosophy. The Jews, and Indian also had it. Also higher math is common in ancient world( China, Indian, Persia, Egyptians hell, even native Americans), but what Greek did( or rather Euclid) is trying to derive everything using axioms, and precise definitions. Irony is Euclid might not even be white. He is probable more middle eastern, since he travel a lot to Egypt, and compile the result of previous mathematicians( probably from the near east).
      The earliest practice of the scientific method by the Greeks is I guess thales, and Aristotle, but are what they do science? I don' t think. Science is an institutional, social movement that really began in the enlightment, with people like Newton, Bacon. I say it started in the 1700s, in Europe.
      About Chinese inventions, and superiority:
      Here are some of the inventions of China: paper, gunpowder, compass, printing (woodblock and movable type), fire lance, land mine, paper money, rudder, naval mine, hand cannon, multi staged rocket, plow, multiple-tube seed drill,   bell, dagger-axe, fork, cultivation of millet, noodle, rowing oar, cultivation of rice, sericulture, cultivation of soybean, archaeology, belt-drive, blast furnace, borehole drilling, bristle toothbrush, cast iron, chemical warfare using mustard smoke and lime, use of chromium, chopsticks, crankhandle, crossbow, football, recognition and treatment of diabetes, drawloom, endocrinology, fishing reel, flame thrower, forensic entomology, free reed aerophone, gas cylinder, hand grenade, horse harness, horse collar, heavy moldboard iron plow, india ink, junk ship, kite, symbols and use of negative numbers in math, pinhole camera, playing cards, pound lock, restaurant menu, toilet paper, seismometer, steel made from cast iron through oxygenation, suspension bridge using iron chains, tea, tofu, wheelbarrow, underwater salvage operations, winnowing fan, universities...among others!
      Also of note: China had advanced agricultural technology that europe didnt adopt till 1000 years later. It is with this agricultural technology that Britain adopted that led directly to them having the agricultural revolution. And without the agricultural revolution they would never had had the industrial revolution. So part of the Britain's industrial advancement was based on Chinese technology. The modern world owes a lot to Chinese inventions and technology that we still use today. As I said China was the leader in science and technology, military technology, It had the largest economy in the world and dominated for over 2000 years. Up until 1820 China's gdp  accounted for 30% of the worlds gdp. As a comparison, the USA had peak share or world gdp of 32% in 1985.

      If that makes him feel better, then more power to him.I want to make a few points regarding China's past economy and technology. According to Angus Maddison from at least 1st century to the late 19th century either China or India had been the largest economy in the world. As a matter of fact ,in the 1st century the Han dynasty's economy was larger than that of the Roman Empire, even though the populations of both countries were roughly the same. Also in technology Han dynasty was far ahead of the Roman Empire( Science and Civilization in China by Joseph Needham, The Genius of China by Robert Temple).Also Robert Temple indicated that more than half the inventions that laid the foundations for the modern world came from China. I'm going to list just a few of the past Chinese inventions that greately influenced Europe. Those are compass, paper, printing(both woodblock and MOVABLE TYPE), mechanical clock,differential gear, Siemen's steel process, not only gunpowder but also gun, cannon,rocket, bomb, land and sea mines. Can you imagine the modern military without these Chinese inventions? I also can say the European overseas colonial expansion and Renaissance could not have been possible without these Chinese inventions. This Chinese technological advantage over Europe lasted until the end of the 18th century. Even though Europe overtook China in math and science in the 17th century, China was still ahead of Europe in technology until the end of the 18th century because the progress in science was very minimal thus contributing very little to the advancement of technology in Europe. Adam Smith in 1776 stated that China was ahead of Europe in technology in his book, Wealth of The Nation. Europe did not overtake China in economy and technology until the 19th century when the faster pace of the Industrial Revolution took place. According to a noted economic historian Paul Bairoch, in 1750 the per capita income of China was higher than that of Europe as a whole, on a par with the those of the leading European countries such as Britain and Netherlands. Angus Maddison later agreed with Bairoch's conclusions on China's per capita income( on page 75 of The Eastern Origins of Western Civilization by John M.Hobson). So Europe did not eclipse China in terms of both per capita income and size of GDP until the 19th century. The last 200 year domination by the West was an aberration in the long running economic and technological history of the world. What's happening now is both China and India are returning to their rightful places they occupied so long, prior to the 19th century.

      ...Do you want more?

      O.. Yes, Anglo-Sexons are slave, and pawn of the Hun, which is a pure Northeast Asian people. The Whole Russian landmass belong to the mongol empire, and you whitey stole it.

    17. "In the struggle for survival, the fittest win out at the expense of their rivals because they succeed in adapting themselves best to their environment." - Charles Darwin

    18. lol you are silly.

      *points and laughs*

    19. LOL the guy is freaky. He is standing, pointing, and laughing.

      "let 's throw a rock at his head?"

    20. no just point and laugh at the man who acts like he has it all figured out when everything he says is borderline racist and as ignorant as me saying white people are superior because england owns more land than the Mongols could have dreamed.

    21. This aquisitive,competitive point of view is what will lead to war over scarce resources. Until mankind realizes that we are all one and make decisions based on this, we're all doomed. Doesn't look like it will happen soon either.

    22. All kinds of men were found: hard-workers; intellectuals; pragmatic men; charmers; orators; fighters; logical, calculating thinkers; musicians; singers; warriors; painters and many others. In such variety what more could be asked of nature? We asked for one more kind: the rational man with a good heart. But that was too much to ask for of this earth. The Earth said quite clearly: "I only serve a--holes here!"

    23. Lol I've read the whole argument here gotta say though I agree with what you wrote with about how Asians are. With everything I've seen Chinese and Korean family values are much higher than that of their western counter parts. Parents actually have ambitions for their children and driven them to excel. Families over here tend not to give a damn as long as the parent isn't being harassed by authorities on behalf of the child. As for being practical and ideological I know that the only major religions to take hold in China are Buddhism, confusionism and toaism are more ways of life than a focal point of god worship. But you have had a lot of book burning in your history so 4 kind of goes out the window. I know that the ancient Chinese had tomes on the function of the human heart written before Egyptians had hieroglyphs and that they likely discovered America first in ships with on-board farms that could stay at sea for at least 100 years before needing to come into dry dock. The focus and discipline Asians have is amazing... Having said that, your talk in terms of us or you is tantamount to observing a war between corgis and shih tzus. Different breeds of the same creature. We're ment to be civilised yet your talking about 1 group of humans enveloping the all the other humans in nuclear fire and if that day ever come you'll only prove to yourself that all the focus and discipline won't save you from yourselves.

    24. The issue is the world is going to hell soon, and we have only a century before some tiny miscalculation escalate into full scale nuclear holy war with the easy access of nuclear weapons, and an increasing piss off terrorist groups from the middle east, and South America. America have many many enemies.

      The order would be:

      1. Democratic government in China take hold.
      2. US neo-con missed off the Chinese.
      3. right wing nationalist party retaliate, and escalate into full frontal confrontation with US neo-cons.
      4. The spread of nuclear weapon to "terrorist" groups. China don 't have to go to war with US. Many terrorist groups can do it for them.

    25. You are also 50% sure nuclear war won't happen. You are the great prognosticator.

  46. It's amazing. This guy has learned to speak perfect English in a matter of minutes. Go back an hour ago and it was disjointed. Now it flows like water. You're bogus man. Go back and serve your masters.

    1. I want to talk/meet you in person. I live in the bay area. It is been a while since I am so engaged in discussion forum. It is nice. I want to talk to a flesh and blood person.

  47. Oh suddenly his English is impeccable. How does that happen?

  48. Nothing like suckering in Chinese students in the US. Isn't the first time I've seen this.

    1. Actually, a lot of Chinese are regular people just trying to make a better life for themselves. Still blinded by propaganda. I am just being objective. Chinese, Japanese and Korean are making huge contribution to the US.

      I am an extreme case. People like me are not common, but I know what common people do when faced with aggression from a common enemy. They become united. When people face with a losing battle, they become like dogs. When people in desperation, they want blood. A respond to power is more power. When face with an aggressors is more aggression. When trade breaks now, everyone turns into wild monkeys. lol You should read Steven Pinker 's book.

    2. I, for one, am extremely thankful that you are not common. I hope they broke the mold when they made you. A racial purest and an advocate of nuclear war...you are one scary individual. One of you is enough for this planet. It's a good thing the Chinese government doesn't let you vote. Or you're a troll and not to be taken seriously.

    3. I am more of a scholar type. Not typical at all in any group. What I know is under certain conditions, the world can quickly escalate tensions that would eventually lead to a nuclear war. Why? FEAR!
      America neo-cons are the matches. China currently is a whipping boy of the west, because it is weak. With a more democratic China, this would not be tolerated. If you combine this with a break down of international trade, there is no more incentive to be nice. Plus, America really have a lot of enemies, and there are a lot of nukes. You combine the two, then it is a very dangerous place for the US to be in. All in all, you have a leveling of power diffusion, universalizing of knowledge, and capital.

      The neo-con actually made the US more scare, and dangerous place by the invasion of Iraq. This makes Iraq side with Iran. Fostering even more terrorists because of anger, and indignity of US invasion, and bases. All it takes is one nuclear weapon, and everything can escalate.

  49. Yeah. I'm pretty sure what I'm saying is true. So is this what you do? The party's got you surfing around on the net?

    1. LOL, I can even meet you if you live in the bay area. I can buy you a cup of coffee with all the 50 cents collected from the worthless Chinese government.

    2. It's funny comrade? Too much smell about you. Like I say, seen this before being done the same way.

  50. No Mao is dead. And what you are spouting smells dead. You walk like a duck and talk like a duck. Racial purity huh. Why don't we call it what it is. Another purge. What do you say tvarish? party dues all paid up?

    1. What you say is true. With the current Chinese government, it is worthless.

  51. Shades of the Glorious Peoples Revolution. Think you are card carrying.

  52. Yeah right. Got a feeling Chairman Mao's portrait is front and center above your fireplace.

    1. Mao is weak, and so is the government it created. I want democracy in China, but the rulers should be scholars, economist and political realist. Technocratic Similar to the Manderin system of the past.

    2. Ain't buying it comrade.

    3. The guy's a wind-up and a racist, I'd let him be if I were you. Save yourself Lak :)
      -

    4. I'm serious. I think this guy is wearing a little red star on his hat. Go back and look over his answers. Something is fishy in Finland.

    5. You think ?I got the impression he was into upping his comment count or something, his arguments are haphazard and aggressive and he seems a bit lost. Likes the sound of his own keyboard that's for sure :)

    6. Yet he claims to have graduated from an Ivy League School?

  53. Really the only fight we should be spoiling for right now is between Pacquiao and Mayweather.

  54. You know. For someone who hates the Chinese government, you sound awfully like the Chinese government. I'm thinking perhaps you are the Chinese government.

  55. phillip wong is not wrong

  56. You two need to stop being passive aggressive. If China cannot move up the value added supply chain, then the US-China trade sides toward US, and hurts Chinese people. china have more mouths to feed, and more people need to be left out of poverty. I will say the same thing if it was Africa, or India etc. Many part of this world is still very poor. We need to left these people out.

    For my more extreme ideas:
    1. Russia need to give back the mongol/Hun empire to the east Asians.
    2. White people need to get out of East Asia.
    3. East Asians should have a common reserve currency, or a world currency.
    4. Restrict immigration like korea, and Japan.
    5. Stop East Asians from contributing to the west industries.

    1. And America's got plenty of food. We've got so much food we actually pay farmers to quit growing it.

    2. Like I said, your kind live off of historical legacy, and accident. China was much more advanced, and capable, and yet, the Chinese never invade Americas, or Africa. Mongols, and Huns did. To be fair, all of middle east, and Europe belongs to East Asians as inheritances of the mongol/Hun empire.

    3. When did America invade Africa? When did America invade China? Hell Phillip we were your ally when Japan invaded China. Took care of that little problem for you didn't we.

    4. In the past( before there is a notion of a single world), maybe the fight between, and within China, Japan, and Korea is acceptable. It is not acceptable now. If you read Pinker, Europe was pretty much at war for much of history also. The Europeans was able to united for fear of being screw over by the US. Now, the East Asia countries need to united to not be screw over by the white race.

      America is worst. The genocide of a whole people, the invasion and colonization of much of pacific islands.

    5. And just how does your answer relate to what I posted. I smell a rat. You carrying a little red book there comrade?

    6. Communist is a stupid idea. If anything, I am a racial purist.

    7. Really ? You do surprise me.

    8. Accident? It's an accident we know how to farm? Please.

    9. Free material resources( land from colonization), Industrial revolution( started in England), and slave labor( Africans). Europe dominance really only rival the east from appro 1830 onward.
      A little below 200 years, while the east was on top for all of history. This is pathetic. Your kind still live off our our kind.

    10. NO, those are mild ideas compared to nuke the world.

    11. Has any one heard of Huawei the Chinese companies that are copying the products of Cisco Systems? Chinese companies are absolutely committed to copying the technologies of the Western Companies. China just has to become strong and then 'twill start pushing American companies out. Then we shall see nothing but Chinese goods all across the world. The solution is a better system. In 10-15 years automation and robotics is going to reach a peak which shall only make more people obsolete. Then it won't matter where the goods are produced: robots are going to produce them. Already, the driver-less car is being built. There is already a prize like the Ansari X-prize for the person who will build the first AI that is going to have human-comparable thinking capabilities. Where are the workers going to fit in all this? The workers may become obsolete. The solution is a radical new deal for the people of the world, not individual nations, because more and more jobs are going to be lost as AI becomes smarter and smarter. Economic wars are not the most pressing problem: AI is coming.

  57. My Dad's bigger than yours.

  58. Phillip, I checked every single thing you spewed out and every damn one of them was dead wrong. You're statistics were wrong, your economics were wrong, and your history was wrong. In total you are one big mess of wrong. Now unless you can back-up what you're saying with cited sources, don't even expect me to listen to the first thing you have to say.

  59. Not a chance. Not trying to argue or demean Rep. Paul but it ain't gonna happen.

  60. Q: To my American cousins; Will Ron Paul be the next President?
    How does it look Stateside? I hope he does for everyones sake.

  61. The western corporations transferred their expertise to the East, so they could make cheaper goods. The manufacturing all went East. Germany can keep its edge because some high technology that it has has not been transferred to the East. For the rest, China can produce virtually anything. While Germany had the good sense to help its own countrymen, the rest of the Western corporations stabbed their citizens in the back. But how long will corporations make money if the currency rate remains high and the people cannot buy anything. Sooner or later the currency of the developed world must match that of the developing world, when that shall happen, manufacturing in the West will make sense. But I think that should happen in perhaps 2-3 years, as what sense would there be in selling to the West if they aren't going to buy at those high prices. I think prices are going to return to the level of the 50's and 60's. If that does not happen, it is because of the larger quantity of money today than in the 50's and 60's.

    1. "The western corporations transferred their expertise to the East, so they could make cheaper goods."

      This might be true for China, but not the case for much of east Asia. The biggest foreign direct investments are foreign Chinese companies. Countries like Taiwan don 't make their national income by factory work, but by designing smartphone, and designing for American companies.

  62. If Britain start to think on its own and stop following its big brother US then there is atleast some hope

  63. This documentary fails to take into account the wealth accumulated by Britain and America. Britain created the industrial revolution some 300 years ago; America brought it to fruition starting the 19th century. Both countries have an educated, skilled workforce. True, both countries have been living beyond their means. The consume-at-all-costs age is over. And that's not a bad thing -- conspicuous consumption just seems to make people more unhapppy.

    Americans and Brits will be willing to bite the bullet if it means more stability ahead. China and India could only wish to have this option -- between them they've got two billion illiterate peasants to feed, with no hope of any significant number of them ever becoming productive workers.

    1. Not true for China. China have 99% literacy, and the average IQ is similar to average east Asians( korea, Taiwan, Japan, singapore, HK). Korea, and Taiwan would be a better measure. Both countries were insignificant 20 years ago, now, there their economy is very competitive. In Europe, only Germany can really call "competitive", but in east Asia, S korea, Taiwan, Singapore, HK, Japan, and China are all competitive.

    2. China has a 93.9% literacy rate. US has a 99% rate. Easily checked.

      Korea - country and economy rebuilt by US
      Taiwan- ditto
      Japan- Same
      Singapore - Brits helped us with that one.
      HK- Brits and US again.

      The US rebuilt each of these countries and their economies. At our own expense!

      No need for thanks.

    3. What thanks? Latin American, Africa, middle east etc... non of them are developed, and they even receive more aids. Why? because, they are weak. When a country go from poor to rich, it cannot be "help". Economy become strong due to the choices of its people, and the society as a whole. East Asian( all of them are sinitic ) tend to invest in education, value hard work. It is prudence. On the other hand, the US should thank east Asians. Japan-china-Korea-taiwan for buying much of the US treasury bills. Also, if not for imports of east Asians, who is going to lead your university research? For the last 10 years, the US edge is Chinese immigrants helping the US to fight over the Korea, Japan, and taiwan industries... The huge productivity gain in your country in the last 30 years comes from Chinese immigrants. If not, there would be no silicon valley. Anglo like to "party" while the humble east Asian do all the work.

    4. Christ almighty man, you're even worse than I thought. You're asking me why we give more aid to poorer countries than rich ones? Are you really from this planet?

  64. "What would you rather do, manufacture 100 million pencils at a dollar apiece or manufacture one jetliner at $250 million dollars"

    I covered the issue of quality manufacturing, and quantitive manufacturing. I also briefly touched on how China is looking to dominate both spectrums of the industry through updated infrastructure, and investing in skilled labour.

    "This is what we want China to do. We've essentially got them working for us doing the small stuff. This is why the US is the world's leading manufacturer."

    I too agree that China is playing the role of 'whole sale manufacturer' to the world. However, this benefits many nations and multi-national corporations alike, not just the United States. I would also argue that China isn't exactly complaining about the boom in business either :)

    The fact is, it's all speculative forecasting. If it were straight forward, I imagine most developing countries would have adopted it, and strategically avoided the economic collapses, and recessions.

    I'm just an observer, and find this particular outcome to be more plausible than others.

  65. this doc is a fraud. they never say that they all have one thing in common, they all believe in Keynesian economics. The only way to reverse our fortune, is to follow the Austrian Free Market way... RON PAUL 2012

    1. transparency/substance backed monetary system/fire current trustees = RON PAUL thumbs up!

    2. What "substance" do you propose to use to back our monetary system?

  66. Tyler read your second paragraph and go back and read what I wrote once again. Did I not say by value? That's what counts in manufacturing output.

    What would you rather do, manufacture 100 million pencils at a dollar apiece or manufacture one jetliner at $250 million dollars.

    This is what we want China to do. We've essentially got them working for us doing the small stuff. This is why the US is the world's leading manufacturer.

    Value of output is how you measure.

  67. Here's the break down,

    China surpassed the United States in manufacturing output about two years ago becoming the number one manufacturing nation. The leap above the United States was marginal, though impressive considering the United States was the number one manufacturer of goods for over a century.

    In comparison, the United States still produces higher quality goods over China due to its well-oiled and already existing manufacturing infrastructure. As well, the United States can boast a higher trained labour force which also contributes to its quality of goods over China.

    However, with the success of China's growing market, a new generation of educated and trained middle-class workers are emerging. This new generation should provide China with its much needed skilled labour force it needs to compete, or even overtake the United States with. Of course the lower class will still exist for the industries more menial manufacturing, like we see today.

    In contrast, the United States has been struggling with a dibilitating economy, over-stretched defense budget, failing health care system, seemingly endless wars on multipal fronts, and subsequently the disappearance of its middle-class.

    That said, China has been aggressively investing in high-tech manufacturing methods, and a skilled labour force to opperate them. One must then deduce that it is only a matter of time before China surpasses the United States in production of higher quality goods to match its newly obtained dominance of quantity production.

    Listen, I'm not interested in learning to speak Chinese anymore than the next guy :) This is just the way it is.

    1. Dude, I am Chinese, and I know Chinese don 't give a **** about other races. They care about their own kind, and to a lesser extend, other east Asians( koreans, and Japanese).

      First, it is good to note that much of US economy is not productive. Do you count service?

      Second, much of those "high tech" are arms, and aircraft that US forced Korea, and Japan to buy.

  68. What this documentary fails to take into account is momentum. Or if you will, inertia. Great Britain was the starting place of the industrial revolution, some 300 years ago. It has enormous accumulated wealth.

    America is the heartland of the industrial revolution. America's economy went from agrarian to industrial four generations ago, not in the last generation as is with the Chinese.

    Americans remain the most productive and hardest-working (in terms of hours per year) in the world. It's true, Britain and America have been living beyond their means. But it's not game over. It's more like, back to basics. Which is okay, because consumption only made us unhappier and wishing for simpler times. The Chinese and Indians have far more formidable obstacles to overcome, such as two billion unproductive rural peasants between them.

  69. A nice watch if you actually genuinely care about other human beings, economics history and social/cultural differences. This doc in my opinion, it actually does not go that deep in this issues, yet, does a good job teasing the viewer into the larger global spectrum.

    Not good for someone that only sees the world revolving around himself.

  70. This documentary makes sense, Nothing last forever.
    I never seen anything that did.

  71. Wait, how does that go? Oh yeah, I remember.

    "I could dig up published evidence, but I feel it is a waste of my time. Do so with your own time if you wish" - Tyler Partridge

    1. Beat him with his own club!! Well done!

  72. An overview of a rookery of pingouin at 18:32....eeeeh...i meant a crookery.
    az

    1. That's funny.

  73. there's nothing like a good old race to the bottom.

  74. The party's over my a**. I'm a proud, young Westerner who works hard and parties harder. I don't really care what a bunch of old greedy farts do with what little time they have left on earth. They think they can manipulate the likes of me through financial means to not enjoy myself they can go pound a bankroll of quarters up their asses if thats what they enjoy most. Keep your brainwashing doom and gloom forecasts for the weaklings. I will continue to do cocaine off womens bodys and walk my own path of enlightenment as I see fit. Winning.

    1. Oh my god! I didn't know Charlie Sheen frequented Top Documentary Films!

    2. Im an F-18 bro.

  75. Perhaps feeling a little insecure are we?

    1. Not insecure, just tired of listening to docs that have no idea what they are talking about.

    2. This is the reason Nato and the western world is preying on Africa, occupyed Lybia. America just sent 12,000 military troop into Lybia. America home base of operation Africom is in Djubouti, Africa. America have troops in the Congo, Sudan and several other countries to rape the land for the greedy and leave the citizens of the land very needy

  76. Ceased watching this at 2:37. The man said China is the economic winner. Nothing could be more untrue. Looks as if the BBC is perpetuating that myth now.

    1. what bugged me about that is that definition of 'winning' means using your people like robot trash - as if the only way for a country to succeed is to turn the bottom into serfs. e_e

    2. That's pretty much the history of China in one sentence.

      But here is a fun fact: The United States is the world's leading manufacturer by value. It accounts for 20% of the world's manufacturing output. The US manufacturing output exceeds China's by a margin of 2 to 1.

      Shows you the difference between perception and reality.

    3. Would you enlighten us by posting your source to this statistical information?

    4. i can definitely see that - we create more value goods than junk. i think this is america's saving grace, once we realize the value in green tech jobs and research, we can kill two many birds with one stone - clean energy, less reliance on world market oil, and less involvement in the middle east to name a few.

    5. And that's just comparing manufacturing.

      We've heard all this before back in the '80's. Japan was gonna be the man. America is on her way out. Japan this and Japan that.

      Didn't happen then and ain't gonna happen now. China is just about to hit the same wall that Japan did.

    6. Yeah, but just because they're both Asian countries doesn't mean they're the same at all. China is a completely different situation, it has a booming middle class that could only grow bigger. Japan did not.

    7. No, China is pulling the same crap with her currency that Japan did.

      Time and time again we've told China her currency needs to be revalued. They thought we were asking pretty please. We were warning them.

      A few months back a reporter asked Bernenke how the US was going to deal with our debt to China. His answer was we're going to print the money and send it to them. And that is essentially what we're doing. We are exporting our inflation to China and that is going to cause huge problems for China.

      This isn't deviousness on the US's part. It's the way economies work.

    8. Plus, the US cannot force China to appreciate its currency, or whatever. Japan is a puppet government for the US.

    9. Economics will force China to revalue its currency or face the certain consequences just as economics forced Japan to do the same.

      The US doesn't have to do a thing. Which is why your assertion the US troops forced Japan is not only absurd but an outright lie.

    10. How about "bitch" slap Japan into a fast appreciation of its currency?

    11. Even that wouldn't help Japan. She dug her own hole.

    12. well they'll hit the wall, alright, if america/the west doesn't have the money to buy the goods, who are they going to sell to? their 'middle class' making dollars a day? is there enough people in their upper class? this is where it is going to get interesting.

    13. You are absolutely dead-on.

    14. Like I said before, China have become a huge market for a lot of crap. Firms like GM is benefiting. If it was up to me, or most Chinese people, We would kick GM out.

    15. then why don't you - unionize and demand living wages. if all the workers unite worldwide we can beat globalization race to the bottom then there will be no place giants can take advantage of :3

    16. You obvious know nothing about the world. Capitalism runs on incentives. If these poor Chinese are not being used, multinational firms would move to a different country. These poor Chinese makes very little, but at least, they are earning something. If say, these Chinese demand high wages, then these firms would just move to some other country. Does the Chinese actually benefit?

    17. don't tell me i know nothing, you're the one who didn't read/understand my comment.

      i said it has to be worldwide so that there are no more crevices where giants can hide and abuse the people. i don't care if china alone benefits, the changes have to be everywhere so all people benefit. one country can't do this alone.

      if you think it's ok to let a giant corp come in and abuse your people just to keep the jobs and not think about a global change in how workers are treated, then that's your business. enjoy the assembly line life.

    18. Are you 12? Not all Chinese work at the assembly line. I for one am working at a pretty good job as an actuary.

      I will ask you again. How Is developing countries going to earn dollars if multinationals have no incentive to hire people in developing countries?

      If suppose, as you say, all people in the developing world refuse to work for any below 12 dollars per hour, then US firms would simply have no incentive to build a factory in the developing country, and the people in the developing countries have no way to earn dollars. I want to know how can developing countries left millions of people out of poverty if they can 't earn dollars? If you don 't like the Chinese system, please, do give me another way.

    19. I must say this Phillip Wong, I've never seen anyone play so fast and loose with facts. Checked each of your assertions and it turns out each one was wrong.

      If you studied economics at an ivy league university, I would say you are due a refund.

    20. The actual system is the one currently being developed. We are automating at a very fast rate. We need to be ready for a system where even the Chinese cannot produce. Machines are coming and automation is coming. Is anyone listening. I agree with Sieben Stern that this race to the bottom must stop. It will stop. Where are the Chinese going to sell as the purchasing power of the West falls. The Chinese sold and the West bought because there was credit. Do you think the banks in the West are thinking of doing a second round of what they did in the last decade? Then who is going to buy your Chinese goods Phillip Wong?

    21. o you think the banks in the West are thinking of doing a second round of what they did in the last decade? That would be crazy!!

    22. The problem started in the 1980s( perhaps the 70s) with the expansion of credits.

    23. Actually, China is growing its middle class. China became the largest market for Car, auto, art and all the crap people like to complain about.

    24. My point exactly. It"s OK for China to benefit but God forbid an American company to make a profit in China.

      You could not have shown a clearer example of Chinese pretzel logic.

    25. Agree with you! Dude, these multinationals think they are great, but let China rise. When it does all Western(read White) corporations are going to be kicked out of China. What'll they do then. They think that American military strength(nuclear) will be the answer. Well, everybody has nuclear strength. The way to create prosperity is for common people of the world to join together. Why are the Chinese toiling for 18 hours a day? Is this life: spending your youth for the profit of the wealthy in soulless boredom!

    26. Democratic China would kick out the Japan, and Koreans companies. Chinese need to produce their own stuff.

    27. You must be kidding me, right?

      US firms are taking huge markets shares in China. Westerner firms like GM, GE, honeywell, high end goods are making huge profits. Much of the car market ( appro 75%) is dominate by foreign cars. Did the Japan, and Korea allow that to happen in their market? The Chinese government need to kill itself. A democratic China would kick these firms out, and allow local firms to incubate to global brands.

    28. First thing you've said that is true. But when are you going to quit America bashing and get rid of that government of yours? That's your responsibility you know.

    29. I am hoping the economy goes into a depression, overthrow the government, and build a better economy. Also, kick out foreign firms.

    30. You're not making sense. You find in OK to make big profits off the US but you find it wrong for US companies to make profits in China. I cannot understand why that appears unfair to you.

    31. US firms are making more profit from expanding market shares. Chinese factories in total are making very little money from factory work. This is unfair, because the profit is unequal.

    32. America is not the one withholding the profits from you. It's your government withholding the profits from you. That's how they have $3 trillion in the bank.

    33. Why not just tax the **** out of American companies like GM?

    34. Actually, China is different. Japan got to where they are because they were forced to sign the "plaza Accord", and voluntary restrict exports. This forced the Japanese Yen to appreciate 40% relative to the dollar. They did because they are military occupied by American bases. They have no choice. America cannot do the same crap to China, without nukes sending our way. That 's the difference.

      By the way, Korea, Taiwan actually are better representative of East Asian dominates. Both these countries have productivity that is 3 times that of the average american

    35. All of china's wealth is locked in 3.14 trillion USD reserve which they hold if a trade embargo is imposed on china for 3yrs by the west,the so called mighty china will come crashing down

    36. And war will break out, and billions will die. Do you want that?

      Here is what is going to happen. Starving 1.3 billion Chinese people is a big no no, and I assure you China will nuke the **** out of US.

      Your time of suck the blood of east Asians are over, because that is only thing your kind can only do. If China restrict Chinese immigrants to the US to support your industries, it would be a generation before the Korea, Japan, and Taiwanese firms completely dominate your industries.

    37. Oh now you want to threaten the US. There are no winners in a nuclear showdown but I guarantee China ain't gonna win a nuclear war with the US.

      Now first you ask how are developing countries going to earn dollars if multinationals don't invest in their country yet now claim we suck the blood of East Asians because we do invest. Which is it?

      Like I say, you need to get your money back from that Ivy League school because apparently you learned nothing.

    38. First, China could send nukes, and spread the nukes to US enemies. preemptively. If US want a war( with all the war mongering), China should grant it. China have no desire for world domination like the US, but just want to feed its people. It piss me off to no end that the US want to make Chinese people more poor. When in desperation, there is no more incentive to play nice.

      Secondly, a strong China would restrict foreigners to only 25% of China 's markets. I would increase the import tax to the tax rate of countries like India, and Brazil( 30%, and not 10%). China should have the opportunity to incubate its industries just like the rest of East Asian countries. Stop exportation of Chinese students to benefit the US economy, and their industries. Adopt a policy like Korea, and Japan: Limit the number of foreigners. Kick out the whites in China.

    39. Make the Chinese people poor? Phillip, China made her own people poor. Remember that idiot Mao with his little red book? Remember the Chinese killing their own intellectuals? Remember the Cultural Revolution? My absolute favorite is steel production in backyard ovens. Nothing could be more hilarious if it just wasn't so pathetic.

      Quit blaming the USA for your poverty. Look in the mirror.

      And you're beginning to sound like Mao yourself. Ship nukes around the world? That's about the dumbest thing I've heard on this site. Ever consider those nukes might just be used against you? Trust me, you got plenty of "buddies" who'd like nothing better than to shove one of those nukes right up your a$$. Your pal Vietnam being the first in line to do so.

    40. false comment here, do your research folks...

    41. No Japan's wasn't forced to do anything and saying they were forced to do so because of US troops is just bizarre.

      Japan was keeping its currency artificially low making their exports cheaper and artificially making foreign products more expensive. That's gaming the system. They paid the price for cheating and we have the exact situation with China.

      The price you pay for doing that is to import inflation from the country you are gaming and export deflation to that same country. This is why the Fed is printing money and sending it to China. Works out pretty well for the US. Cheap prices and no inflation.

      You game the world's largest economy at your own peril.

    42. what is bizarre? An expression of disbelief is not a refutation of the facts. Japan was forced to sign the "plaza accord", and was forced to restrict exports of its cars because the US could not compete. Japan is a "colony"-like state of the US. This cannot be done with the Chinese government( as much as I see it as being weak). The irony is that the US auto still went bankrupt in the late 2000s, and it needs the US auto bailout.

      The slogan * game the system" means you don 't know a damn thing, and resort the cheap slogan. Is QE done by the US not "gaming the system" as well"? The fact of the matter is US being the reserve currency, and China fixes it currency relative to the dollar. So, China is merely responding to the US manipulation. So, the order is really the US that manipulation its currency( printing money), and followed by China printing the same amount.

      Also, China did not game the system. China like much of east Asian, Japan, S korea, taiwan, Singapore, and HK are better. I mean east Asians work harder, and not lazy ass Americans. If China want to hurt America, China can restrict immigration, and over the generation, Japan, Korea, and Taiwanese would take over. I reject WTO.

      I am not China. I am a person. I am not a country( If I am, I would send nukes). As a Chinese person, I think Chinese government need to be destroyed, so that the next government should kick out big US firms, because many of them are dominating Chinese industies. Chinese, unlike the rest of east Asian economies do not have time to incubate, and was forced open by WTO.

    43. Gaming an economy totally inudated with debt (US) while you have stockpiles of savings (China/Asia) will blow holes through that theory.

    44. One last thing before I head to the mountains.

      From "Currency Wars: How Ben Bernenke Outsmarted China" - Charles Wallace - Daily Finance

      "There's an old saying, 'if you're in a poker game and you don't know who the sucker is, then you're the sucker'. The Chinese have just woken up to the fact that they're the sucker."

      That quote pretty much sums up the whole article. If you wish you can read it and then you can learn why you don't game the worlds largest economy. You will also learn how powerful a weapon debt can be. You will also learn it's not a theory and it certainly does not have holes in it. In short, you just might learn something.

    45. Enjoy the mountains Lak, be careful ! :)

    46. Had to turn back. Blizzard in the mountains. But I did take time to stick my head in a snowbank and I'm not joking.

    47. oops, sorry :)

    48. Was it deep snow ? Wish I could have seen that, communing with nature :) Back to the editing then ?

    49. Mountain passes are closed. Snow coming down so thick you can't see ten feet. Step-down, straight-up, drop-dead gorgeous.

      Back to friggin' editing.

    50. I'd be staring out of the window, one of my favourite things is to watch snow fall. Edit tomorrow :)

    51. The only power the debt can possibly have is to default. If that is the premise of your point its pretty assinine. And to say that Greenspan or Bernanke have outsmarted anyone is ridiculous.
      Greenspans whole doctrine was that we can live without recessions. Well how did that all work out?
      Now you want me to read an article praising the brilliance of Bernanke who was forced to the corner of the room in the poker game and say that he holds all the cards?

      Pointless to debate with you on this one if Bernanke is your smart savior and 15 trillion in debt is some big trump card in the poker game.

      And to repeat that at least China has some funds to do what they want to do. They don't need to open discount windows or rely on their central bank to buy thier debt to keep it all rolling. Yes china will suffer if there is a trade war or the US defaults on thier debt but at least they have some what of an economy to keep on rolling as they muddle through their recession. If the US stops importing from China or defaults on the debt inflation will strangle ther economy.

      But I am interested to hear how China ends up the sucker? Because their can be no sound reasoning for that theory that China ends up the sucker. China ending up a sucker is a theory ok.

    52. And to add that if the big deal is China having to raise the value of the Yuan is the savior for the US economy then I am here LAUGHING. Just cause some academic says something is so does not make it so. Greenspan was the big guru and where did that get everyone?

    53. Again if you are interested in knowing how China ends up the sucker you'll have to put forth a little effort and read. I'm not here to teach you economics. I cited an article for you and the web is full of information on the subject.

      You are just rambling on as if the real world doesn't exist. Read the article.

    54. Your article says that printing money will force inflation on China and cause the China to revalue its currencey. Which is what I refered to you argumentative *****. And if you think that printing money is going to be the savior of the US economy you are an *****.

    55. usdebtclock.org

      you want to tell people this means power? You are uniformed and the only inferences you can make are from articles from the same people that would have said house prices will never drop etc etc

    56. I read the article on the brilliance of printing so much money that you don't have so that your currency drives up inflation in other nations. These would have been the same people who would have told you that house prices would never drop in 2008.

      keep on reading and quoting people wth theories who can and will turn out to be wrong.

      Printing money to be the smart guy is somehow your savior. Well lets see waht that gets you.

      I could guide you to information but vlatko the man from the east who likes to live in the memory or Stalin figures that ain't right.

    57. You must live in some kind of alternate universe. The American worker is the most productive in the world. The only Asian country in the top ten is Japan. Check anywhere on the web. The countries you named are far down the list. Again, check that anywhere you choose.

      Quit spewing blatantly false crap.

    58. Actually, it is the case. I need to re- find it, but it is true. Korea, Taiwan are three times as productive, Taiwan coming a little ahead of Korea.

    59. It is not simple, buddy. 50% of the US population is "poor". They don 't really have options of going to Trader Joes, and eat organic. If you mean toys, most of that already moved out of China.

    60. i am part of that 50% poor, and i do not go to trader joes for organic food, nor is that required to be healthy. I can't tell which comment this was in reply to because they don't nest so i don't know where else to go with that reply ^^;

    61. Dude, I went to a ivy and studied economics. The common perception is China, Japan is too blame. It is not. The US poverty is a structural problem. US real wage remain stagnate for the last 30 years, while the cost of living increase 600%. People are poor, because they are making less money relative to everything else. China, if anything is helping to lower the inflation for a lot of US goods, and help the lower class.

      By the way, that 50% is actually 49%. The US can only blame its deregulation of banking industry, and culture. I am sorry, US culture is garbage. American people seem to think teachers, professors, and smart people are "uncool" blah blah....

    62. Oh yeah Americans think smart is uncool. I mean we only have the best university system in the world, lead the world in patents, are the most technologically advanced nation on earth, own the Nobels year after year, spend more money on space exploration than China spends on schools(and even those fall down and kill your children by the thousands), lead the world in medical research, and I could go on and on. Not bad for a bunch of dumbasses don't you think?

    63. Most of your universities are dominate by east Asians, Jews, and Indians etc.

      And no. The US is living off of the past 200 years of European imperialism. East Asia was out of the picture in science, and technology, because most of the population is poor, and in civil war.

      East Asians had the most technological, biggest economies in the world for the last 2000 years. Ancient Chinese are more advanced than Rome, and Greece. We had big, and more power empires( mongols, Hun). So, what if You whites have the last 200 years, because of your industrial revolution.

    64. actually jobs would help the american lower class, but again, they're in china, because they will work for much lower wages. lower wages for goods means that more of the money becomes profit and pools to the top - to people like the waltons. they should thank china for making them who they are!

      and honestly, to reply to both of your replies, if you 'went to ivy' and studied economics, you probably have no idea what the economic boom has done to the poor in china O_O;; you might know figures but that's nothing compared to the conditions of low class working people. not all chinese work in factories, but most of the labor is unskilled, low pay, long hours, etc. they have no benefits, no retirement, not anything. They work until they die.

      but then again, to some people, that's their idea of progress. :T

    65. Are you 12? The real world is tough, everywhere!

      The US problem is structural, and not because of losing jobs to China. The US real wage is stagnate for the last 30 years, while cost of living increase by 600%. People have no choice but to use credit to even live.

    66. What do they produce though weapons!!!! And a military economy does not replentish itself-it is a bloodsucker the only one's who win are th emunitions manufacturer's and the banker's who finance both sides at the same time. This is why we ALWAYS have a war going on somewhere or two or three.-hot and cold.
      RR

    67. I hate the fact that Chinese factory workers are working serfs, but do tell me how the China can left millions of being out of poverty? I don 't like the Chinese government, but there is a method to their madness, and deliver the results.

    68. because they were so impoverished that and forward progress is better.

      say you earned 50c a day, and some company comes in and gives you 1$... is that better? raw numbers say it's better, but cost of living wise it's nothing and nothing compared to what the company makes off the cheap labor. (sort of like the fair trade issue where they pay a little bit more, but it's still not a living wage)

      as for results, i think that's an opinion - if you mean they give their people low wages, tainted milk, smoggy skies, no social security system, all to deliver junk to the west then yeah they deliver.

      and honestly, if you equate being a serf with good progress, you probably never envisioned yourself having to do a job like that for such low wages. their method IS madness....

    69. I will ask you again. How are these Chinese in the country going to earn dollars? The result should be obvious. In the last 10 years, China left about a 100 million people out of poverty, became the largest market for PC, Cars, and so many crap. There a measurable increase of the middle class. These are all good signs. I know the problems, but what I want to know is your solution. How is your system going to left 100 millions out of poverty in the next ten years.

      I know the milk thing. No security is reasonable, since China is still poor. Most of the junk China makes are from American companies. You have to blame your kind.

    70. ask me again? your question didn't make sense the first time... :T

      they lead them out of poverty and onto the human market where they work long hours for nothing. all the while the richest act like western companies, polluting and treating their people like serfs. If you think working on an assembly line is progress, then i don't know what to say.

      how do i lift 100 million out of poverty? more liquidity in the lower classes - give them a minimum living wage, unions, healthcare, a clean environment, quality in their products and foster a worldwide sense that consumerism isn't everything. but hey, that might not be for everyone... some people like the easy way out by slapping some poor sap of a farmboy onto an assembly line making iphones until he kills himself out of despair.

      my issue with what you say is mainly about your definition of progress - that it's not all financial... everyone needs to learn this, not just china. there's something to be said for living in a clean environment, getting an education, and valuing the quality and happiness of life over 'economic success'. we're gutting this planet in order to have stuff we don't need, and china is no different than america, if you look at how they are starting to treat the resources and people in africa.

      you also can't have it both ways - you can't, on one hand, say that china has a growing middle class, and a very wealthy class, and then turn around and cry that it is too poor to guarantee quality foodstuffs to it's people. if the communist government wanted to make life better, it has the money and control over the economic sector to make that happen.

      I don't blame 'my kind' for how the Chinese treat their own people. most of the junk china makes is for western consumers, but without that market there would be no chinese boom. let's get that one straight, friend. if such a huuuge economic power wanted better, then they could make it better.