Politics, Religion and the Tea Party

Politics, Religion and the Tea PartyAs the race for the Republican presidential nomination for the 2012 elections heats up, Fault Lines follows the Iowa campaign trail to investigate the underlying forces shaping candidates.What role does religion play in the US presidential elections?

With the 2012 campaign season in full swing, Republicans are criticizing the Obama administration's energy policies as a key reason for rising prices at the pump.

Gasoline prices have already passed the $4 mark in California after jumping 20 cents in the past week on the idling of the third-largest refinery on the West Coast.

As the presidential election fast approaches, many voters are starting to consider exactly what Obama's healthcare plan would implement.

The Affordable Health Care Act, passed March 3, 2010, is said by the Obama administration to give 32 million more to American's insurance for the first time.

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337 Comments / User Reviews

  1. if the Christian nation is ruining the republican party, then maybe the republican party should disregard the christians and their vote....oh, but wait...then not one single republican would EVER be elected - I have asked this question over 50 times on various public forums, however other than a laughing response/one-liner, IVE NEVER GOTTEN A REAL ANSWEr...could one person tell me/us anything a republican has done for the benefit of the MAJORITY of Americans over the last 10years? I still havnt found anything after 1 year of asking and looking........
    by the by, i am a poli-sci major, mid sophomore yr

    1. The answer to your question: Nothing.

    2. And you are paying too much for your Marxist elite education. Another brainwashed liberal comminist know it all that ain't so

    3. Pot meet kettle. There are no Marxist in mainstream American politics. America is a centre right country. None of our liberals are even leftists. I think you need to stop trying to use bogeyman words to scare the pants off of middle aged white guys and start having a little respect for the truth.

    4. Communist or not, the guy is right.
      And the typical American response is to call him a communist?!
      Proves my point how dumb and Ignorant the Americans really are.. If you defer from their point of view your a communist.. Wow! way to go America...

    5. If the the depth of your argument is simply personal insult then you do not have a valid argument or point. Use intelligence to argue the point not the person.

    6. republicans look out for one man, and one man only!
      Him or herself I'm afraid to say.
      Republican Bush left Democrat Obama a mountain of **** to clean up after Bush, who was not only the most stupidest man I've ever seen in my live, but ignorant and dumb to a fault...

      And now, because the republicans are really ticked off because Obama won his second turn as president of a Country that is so morally screwed up, and think their the greatest Nation on this planet, so they decided to dig their heals in to the sand and stonewall the American Economy what leads to a government shut down,,, AGAIN!!! if their not careful.

  2. omg tea party principles contradicts the teachings of Jesus Christ. We as Christians should follow in the foot steps of Jesus... help and give to the needy, to only consume what we need. to keep the earth clean and healthy, not to exploit others for personal gains. to live peacefully. but this tea party wants to take away social programs to help the sick and needy while giving tax breaks to the wealthy,they want to drill as much oil as possible without trying to find new was to creating clean and renewable energy. they think its o.k. with corporations going overseas for cheap labor. they would go to war with countries they don't agree with in a heart beat, without a second thought... the only thing the conservatives and Jesus has in common is the gay marriage and abortion issues... everything else Jesus preached they hate... it pisses me off when these republican/tea party say they stand for Christianity cause they don't

    a passage from the bible
    Acts 2:42-47
    They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

    1. You have no more of an idea of what "Jesus" preached than anyone else, much less what constitutes Christianity. Passages from the bible demonstrate nothing.

    2. The needy yes, the lazy no

      God helps those who help themselves

    3. Hmm, God helps those who help themselves.... so they've helped themselves, why do they need help anymore from God? And what did God do, he waited to see who helped themselves, then took the credit. It doesn't seem to me God's doing anyone any favors, just claiming credit whilst doing nothing.

    4. haha you mean the followers of god create social institutions and race myths to help enslave and oppress people for years and years and years until we get america: the most unequal playing field of pseudo democracy thats really just an extension of imperialistic colonialist ideas...the empires and the churches have turned into corporations...there is still slavery happening...its called sweatshops. tea party principles want to allow corporate personhood and are good with the "middle class" paying a disproportionately higher percentage of taxes than the wealthy. right, cause thats "american equality" right?

  3. I was once part of the Tea Party. We started out as a small government, pro constitution based movement. The movement has allowed the far right and evangelicals to take it over. I watched it happen. the keep the government out of my life unless it hurts my religious beliefs type people are running it now. It makes me sick and sadddens me.

  4. Tea Party side for all of you: Activist judges, dividing America, George Soros, Saul Alinsky, Biased Liberal Media, Job Creators, Liberal Lie, The War on Drugs, The War on Terror, Weapons of Mass Destruction, entitlement programs, Socialism, Communism, Anarchism, Marxist,
    intellectual elite, faith and values, Marriage is between 1 man and 1 woman, un-American, Free market principles, Let the Free market Decide, Limited government, get a job, take a bath, Deregulation, Science . . . It's just a Theory, Global Warming is a good thing because you will get to wear shorts more often!!!

    1. Just what are you ranting about in your ignorant way?

    2. The Tea Party side was well represented in the film, but thanks for the recap.

  5. To RobertAllen:

    Stop it. Mass Deportations stop no problems and the fact you support it clearly shows your lack of empathy and lack of understanding regarding the depth of the issue.

    I will fight for the rights of every single undocumented worker I teach. Every. Damn. Day. They are kind, motivated, moral, tax-paying, people. They are here because of centuries of intervention in their land and resources by the United States Government.

    You can't stop us. And neither can your hate.

    1. You're even more of a criminal than they are. If I knew where you were "teaching," I would report you to the proper authorities.

  6. All of the labels such as a "Christian nation" or "Fundamentalists" etc. don't mean squat because it's just being used by the right as an election tool, I mean Bush claims he's born again and if I was a believer I would say he should have been struck by a continuous lightning storm since he first claimed that! His family and cronies wouldn't know the truth from Saddam Hussein or Bin Laden!

  7. A masterful piece of left-wing propaganda brought to you by Al Jazeera. I commend them for bringing forth the opinions of the hard core partisan left. It was nauseating to watch as the left leans into attack mode while accusing the right of hateful rhetoric. This is exactly the kind of propaganda that is tearing this country apart.

    1. Carkrueger you sound like the typical teabagger- all rhetoric and no facts or evidence. May be you didn't notice, but most of the individuals interviewed are either members of the tea party or other conservative thinkers and politicians.

      Below I have listed a few examples of hateful rhetoric or positions advocated by tea baggers:

      1) Mass deportations of undocumented workers (including children born in the US).

      2) Repealing birthright citizenship.

      3) Denying equal rights to all citizens.

      4) Denying climate change (notice the drought this summer???).

      5) Ensuring people die because they lack affordable quality health care.

      I would also like to point out that the tea baggers support for the Constitution is highly selective. For example the party seems directly opposed to both the 1st and 14th amendments (division of church and state + equal rights and protections for ALL citizens). However, I'm not sure where they fall when it comes to the Constitution defining African Americans as 3/5ths of a person....

    2. I can go for the mass deportation of undocumented workers, etc. As for climate change, I have no opinion--there is an excellent documentary on this site about it in which two teams of equally qualified scientists on each side are interviewed. The remainder is reprehensible.

    3. Thank you Jim for telling the truth and shaming the Devil.Jesus did not behave in the way that they speak.He even said That we were to Live By The Golden Rule.

    4. How do you know how "Jesus" behaved?

    5. On the contrary, all one needs to do to understand that this film is accurate is 1) read the Republican Party platform (particularly at the state level) 2) Listen to Republican tea party lawmakers and candidates speak at tea party rallies or at the "Values Voter Summit" 3) read legislation drafted by these right-wing extremist lawmakers 4) watch them in action via rightwingwatch(dot)org<<< daily updates w/ audio/video straight from the tea party/religious right.

  8. omg i love this video.. are u serious cause of "the bible" what happened to the people who have a open mind huh?.. what benefits they get from "jesus christ" when they dont even believe in him. if politics stayed on one side and religion stays in one side every thing would work out. but no!!! u wanna mix them to make money and make the whole usa christian so clever.. politics only exist by mans word the bible only exist by mans writing's and god only exist in mans imagination so foolish of people to destroy the world and cover up the dirty mess just by manipulation, we all know that gasoline is a blessing ,and that solar energy is tooooo expensive "B**ch" only cause u make the damn price tag on it, second all presidents were bad and all the good presidents ended up in a casket DEAD.. all set up by the CIA, third, making things illegal to the public isnt working should be thinking of legalization then the people of the united states would then proceed to answer this question and the answer is "NO".. why? because most of the united states is christian they dont believe on natural substances, they believe on pharmaceuticals, man made chemicals which cost noting to make. so prophets go up while our brain gets messed up, population will only with hold only by freedom not democracy..

    1. Is English your second language?

    2. Are you a xenophobe?

      Immigrant racist!

  9. 6.15 sec ... "America's biblical foundations" are simply a colonial/political/cultural genocide upon native north americans. Look at every statehood in history who has claimed a religious 'right' to exist and you see one thing ... TYRANNY and CRUELTY!!!!!

  10. The United States is supposed to be a democracy not a theocracy.

  11. Simply put politics and religion should not be mixed. I think the far religious right is destroying the republican party.

    1. And what are Progressives doing to the Democrat Party? Do you think OWS is helpful to Democrats?

  12. When you mix Politics with big companies supporting candidates, the result is: the wealthiest are wealthier, and the middle class and the poorest are even poorer.

    Politics and Economy should function separately.
    How far is it from Washington (Politics) to New York (Economy)?
    And the answer is ..... nothing.
    Both places are the same. There is no difference.

  13. What about Regan? Now their was a half a$$ good Republican president.

  14. Divide and conquer!

    The whole political process is censored and broadcast according to a few rightwing corporations like News Corporation and Time Warner Company. It is in their best interest to have a wide gap between Democrats and Republicans so they can sensationalize the coverage and capitalize on it. Most people are moderates, whether Democrat or Republican, and want the country to move forward politically and economically; but that doesn’t sell newsprint, so the moderates get absolute minimal news coverage.

    Our election process isnt about voting for a particular candidate…it is about voting against the other one…the lesser of two evils. I don’t think there are any good ‘viable’ candidates out there because our election process has been hijacked by the media and wont allow them news coverage.

    I think this country is in dire straits politically and economically. Because of this hijacking process, to get coverage you need big money, big money is corporate money, corporate money is for extreme monetary gain not moderate growth. As good as Bill Clinton was for the economy when he was in office, he signed NAFTA into law which set the stage for job outsourcing and cheap imports that ultimately did long term damage to our economy.

    The fact is people are sheeple; if it is on the news, it has to be true. Having far right and far left candidates running for office is not in the best interest of this country or its citizens; doing so pits moderates from both sides of the aisle against each other…and the losers are the citizens. Divide and conquer.

    1. You're absolutely correct. Then only good President in my lifetime was the one I was born under, Truman, and as I've mentioned in previous posts, although I do not agree with everything he did, at least I can respect him as a man.

  15. What type of a country do you think we'd have if all the politicians were intelligent as opposed to cunning?

  16. Tea Party in 2007 didn't mean a political party. It began to come up as a description of what needed to be done. Modern "Boston Tea Parties", not a POLITICAL party. The proof is in Alex Jones broadcasts of the period when the phrase became popular again.

    A few months went by an lo -and-behold it had been turned into a semi-formal "political" organization, not a description of quasi-legal but rebellious acts . This IS Cointelpro at work. Make a phrase or an act using the word "party" by politically-change oriented people and turning the cannons around 180 degrees. NWO, I salute your Machiavellian cunning but hate you with my soul.

    1. Thankas for the Ron Psul/Alex Jones conpsiracy theories. Try to pay attention. Perhaps you should watch the film again.

  17. The road to hell is paved with the best of intentions. Trading Constitutional and economic freedom for religious and corporate rule is not what I believe what the forefathers had in mind. In fact that is why there is separation of church and state. Neither side should dictate the laws of the other. But being a Christian nation from inception we should use are beliefs and morals to guild us, not monies from the elite to further their control of the populous.

    1. We were not a Christian national from inception. You don't know your American history, so stop posting such nonsense.

    2. A nation filled with predominately Christian people may not be the same thing as a Christian nation. The first is a demographic. The second implies state policy.

    3. This is n't a Christian. it was never intended to be. It was intended to be a secular nation.

  18. No Charles it wasn't the judge, it was the law and it was the Constitution.

  19. "people meeting for Bible study in thier own home with other Christians were fined and told not to" is what you wrote (cut and pasted). The implication being that Bible study was the crime. I have heard of no law in the United States on any level that forbids Bible study. There is no court that would have upheld the legality of that fine. Something else must have happened that forced the local authorities to issue a citation. A zoning violation would seem logical.

    I have to add that calling someone dimwitted does not sound like you.

    1. As usual, C_and_N got everything wrong. The problem was parking. Cars were blocking the roads and the people conducting the "seminar" refused to do anything about it. I remember reading about this. See earlier posts by Iakhotason in response.

    2. I can't help but think that there are those who would feel that this was a back door method to curb the religious rights of those conducting that seminar. If a person wants to feel persecuted that person will make the story fit into what they want.

    3. I believe it's called paranoia.

  20. Technically only Grant is buried in Grant's tomb. And Grant's wife is buried in her tomb and both tombs are inside a mausoleum which is really a memorial. And they are not buried they are entombed

    1. Correct. The question which originated as a joke on "You Bet Your Life" should have been: "Who is buried in Grant's crypt?"

      But getting back to some serious debunking, I'll bet that none of the GOP candidates--and let's also include Rick Perry, Michele Bachman and Sara Palin--have ever heard of deism, much less have any idea what it is--yet, they all claim knowledge of American history.

    2. Which is strange because they all claim to pray to a deity.

    3. That's why I wish we could have our own show on public access. With the posters we have, not only could we leave "The Atheist Experience" in the dust, but we could probably do a considerable amount of good and have a lot of fun doing it.

  21. They did have some type of celebration but it was no thanksgiving. It was more to the effect that the Indians fed them to keep them from starving.

    And what did these grateful Pilgrims do the very next day? Went out shooting Indians - FOR THE SPORT OF IT!

  22. I hope others are reading this also. I want them to see exactly what they wish to return to.

    Let us now move to the Tea Party's claim they wish to "restore" religious freedoms. My question is again restore to what?

    Let us take those icons of religious freedom, the Pilgrim Puritans. You know the guys who came to America for religious freedom. Plymouth Rock and all that mythology.

    They did not come to America for religious freedom, far from it. They came to America to set up a theocracy which they commenced to do before their shoes were dry from stepping off the boat. And they didn't step on a rock. They set up a society where you had to toe the line. One false step away from the party line and you could be executed. And don't ever let them get it into their little heads that you were a witch. They made the celebration of Christmas a crime. So much for the claim of Fox News that Obama has declared a "war" on Christmas simply because his Christmas card said Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. How friggin absurd. The Tea Party-ers believe this crap and this crap is what they wish to return to. And they will if they have their way.

    Once again they are being manipulated. What they do not understand is that today their religious freedom is more secure than it has been throughout our entire history. You let someone paint a swastika on a synagogue and there will be more FBI swarming around than there are fleas on a mangy dog. And take those idiots of Westwood Baptist. It is the government that is protecting their right to be pigs in the name of religion for chrissake. Eroding religious freedom my a$$.

    1. But remember, every group must have its enemies and the more the better.

      By the way, speaking of the Pilgrims. There was no way they could have celebrated Thanksgiving. Perhaps you would like to elaborate on that.

    2. i am reading and learning with each post.

    3. There is a book titled "Lies My Teacher Told Me - Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong" written by James W. Loewan. He is a respected scholar and historian and the book has footnotes and citations so you can cross check every thing he writes.

      Good place to start learning American History.

    4. "Christian nation" psuedo-history such as peddled by David barton, tea party nutter?

    5. Speaking of David Barton, have you ever heard of Chris Rada?

    6. The Puritans came to America for religious freedom, alright.....their own freedom. They wanted to practice their own brand of faith without government persecution but did not believe in religious freedom as part of their philosophy or a human right . They tried to live in Holland, which would allow them to practice their faith freely, but they didn't feel they had found a home there. I am quite sure they found living among the heretical beliefs of the Dutch quite disagreeable. Coming to America would allow them to come to a place where they could form their own country and keep all their religious laws as they saw fit. In other words, they wanted to do the same thing the Church of England was doing except they were now the ones in power.

  23. Wilson would put your a$$ in jail for merely protesting America entering WWI. It was he who segregated the Federal Government and the military. This brought on what we now call Jim Crow. He was a racist pig.

    Oh and the man who desegregated the government and the military? None other than Harry S. Truman. Another reason his polling numbers were so low.

    1. It's really amazing what this country bumpkin and failed businessman was able to accomplish despite a hostile congress.

      How about another myth, like why we entered WWII.

      (I hope others are reading this exchange.)

    2. Yeah. If he had gone to college it would have probably ruined him.

    3. Got a good one for you. How about the truth behind the famous photograph of Iwo Jima?

      Also, you never responded as to whether you agreed with my statement about the platform of Lincoln's party regarding slavery when he first ran.

    4. You mean the second staged photograph with a different (larger) flag than was originally raised?

      The Republican platform as regards slavery was the promise not to extend slavery. My favorite plank in the platform was the promise to begin daily mail delivery. That probably got him more votes than the slavery plank.

      Incidentally, Lincoln won the election without a majority of the vote. His count was somewhere around 40% give or take if I remember. Douglas, his main rival, received about half a million less votes than Lincoln.

      You guys are stretching my poor little brain to the breaking point. I'm afraid I'll start having to use Google but I will not use Wikipedia. Not too fond of Wikipedia.

    5. You do know your stuff.

      With regard to the photograph, absolutely.

      Bingo with respect to the Republican platform on slavery. Also, as I stated before, the south signed the Northwest Ordinance prohibiting slavery in the states. Therefore, slavery did not become an issue until later, especially when the balance of power in the House was upset by California's admission into the Union as a free state.

      Now, speaking of Lincoln winning the election without a majority of the vote, what about the Tilden-Hayes election which was as dirty as the Bush election? In this regard, I'm sure we both feel basically the same way about the Constitution. However, I find two weaknesses: first of all, the Electoral College, second the weak verbiage on separation of church (religion) and state. At least, our forefathers had the wisdom to provide for the process of amendment--even if it resulted in prohibition (I bet Jefferson turned in his grave when it passed) and its repeal. I'd be interested in your take on this.

      Also could you tell me what Benjamin Harrison ever did other than sit in front of the White House beard and all and smile at people--at least Harding did something--well, sort of.

    6. Theft of Presidential elections is nothing new nor rare in Presidential elections. After all, we don't vote for Presidents, we vote for electors who vote for President. They can be bought and sold and often were. Andrew Jackson's "defeat" in his first bid being the prime example.

      Speaking of bogus WWII photographs, MacArthur's return to the Philippines has got to be the number 1 use of PR. He was such a vain, pompous little man. This is the same general who abandoned his troops on the Philippines. Some can say that was because he was ordered to do so yet he had no qualms disobeying orders when it suited his purpose. An officer never abandons his men. Especially to be left to the mercy of the unmerciful Japanese. Every campaign or counter-offensive he planned in WWII ended at best being a whole bunch of nothing and at worst complete disaster. He couldn't get the idea through his pointed head that the Pacific War was a naval war. And for this he gets the Congressional Medal of Honor. (Trivia - He and his father were the first father/son to receive that medal)

      One last thing. It was MacArthur who crushed the veteran's march on Washington during the depression. Veterans. Some "honor" that man had.

    7. Plato (Republic, Book VI) argues that democracy is inferior to various forms of monarchy, aristocracy and even oligarchy on the grounds that democracy tends to undermine the expertise necessary to properly governed societies. In a democracy, he argues, those who are expert at winning elections and nothing else will eventually dominate democratic politics. Democracy tends to emphasize this expertise at the expense of the expertise that is necessary to properly governed societies. The reason for this is that most people do not have the kinds of talents that enable them to think well about the difficult issues that politics involves. But in order to win office or get a piece of legislation passed, politicians must appeal to these people's sense of what is right or not right. Hence, the state will be guided by very poorly worked out ideas that experts in manipulation and mass appeal use to help themselves win office.

    8. I ain't ignoring you Epi, I'm thinkin'. Been much easier if you had cited Pluto the dog instead of Plato the Greek.

    9. I wonder if Plato would say the same thing if he were to have the pleasure of knowing the modern corporation. They are nothing if not nations unto themselves. A kingdom if you will with a monarch (CEO), an aristocracy (management) and even an oligarchy (Board of Directors). Of course the population is a bunch of peasants (hyperbole I know) whose existence is entirely dependent on faithfully serving the corporate nation. And keep in mind the death penalty (firing) or jail (demotion) is used on all citizens, monarch down to peasant if they betray the nation. Yet these corporations exhibit all the same weaknesses as Plato's democracy all the way down to dotting the i's and crossing the t's.

      No, I don't believe it is a what (government) that is causing the problem, rather it is a question of why no government works. And I think I know why that is.

    10. the simple answer is because people are stupid. the difficult answer is because every value judgement is subjective....lol

    11. And all those veterans wanted was to be able to receive their benefits a little early--but this is no different than BO telling veterans and social security recipients during the debt debates that they might not receive their checks when, if he were smart, he would have stated that despite the arguments, he was going to do everything to make sure that they received them on time--but again people forget and considering the choices we are faced with in this election, people will continue to forget. I sure wish Harry were back, don't you?

    12. By the way, as I mentioned in the post to which you are responding, the electoral college was one of the few mistakes made by our Founding Fathers.

      However trite this might sound, I still have a lot of respect for them.

  24. And if you believe the PATRIOT Act is bad, you should read what Lincoln did after he illegally suspended Habeas Corpus. That'll open your eyes about Mr. Lincoln.

    1. Indeed it will.

      And may I also suggest a look at what Wilson signed into law at the time the United States entered WWI.

  25. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy slavery.

    A. Lincoln in a letter to Horace Greely editor of the New York Tribune, August 1862.

    Says it all.

    1. Almost all. At the time Lincoln ran for President, his party merely stood for the proposition of banning slavery in the territories, which even the south supported by signing the Northwest Ordinance, correct?

  26. PS Thanks for replying

  27. Something is amiss here. Each time a try to click on anything it posts my last comment .

  28. Supplemental Security Income. Part of Social Security.

    I would have asked him what HE is doing online during work hours.

  29. I knew it.....only the ones that found my comment offensive are the ones I'm directing it to!

    1. Your comment was very interesting and it got me to think about people.
      Thinking about people got me to think about suggestions, thinking about suggestions got me to think back at you.
      Thank you!

      1. caretake houses, there are many people who need someone while they are away and you won't have to pay rent or a very minimum.
      2. Don't follow fashion because it will be replaced next year, shop in second hand store and wear last year's fashion, it's amazing what people give away. Clothes are one of the few things that are made to last.
      3. Don't buy stuff if you don't need it, borrow stuff if you can and return it on time along with a hand made cake (or something).
      4. If you car dies, wait to replace it and see if you can live without.
      5.Find a job paid under de table for 20.00 an hour and do long hours. You may be able to work a month worth of salary in 5 days (if you have a low cost of living)
      6.Grow a garden if you have a yard, help your friend who do if you don't.
      7. Eat at home, cook real food. Host potluck and go to potluck.
      8. Help whenever you can, whoever you want, you'll get it back possibly not from the same person.
      9.Dig under the arguments and fights, there is always topsoil under weeds.
      10. Love your children unconditionally similar to the way you wish you had been loved despite your differences by your parents.
      11. Immerse yourself in Your Self, it doesn't hurt anyone. Just don't immerse yourself too much in others, you will get hurt.
      12. If you steal recognize when life steals it back from you. If you hurt recognize when life hurts you back. If you cheat recognize when life cheats you back.Ect...
      13. When you give recognize when life gives it back. When you love recognize when life loves you back. When you cry recognize when life makes you laugh.

      I could go on. If this sound too good to be true, it doesn't to me.
      One rule i never forget is: when you are ready to change anything in your life, change it because you want to, not because others think you should.
      Over the last year my life has changed tremendously, i now have a grand son, the first one. I can't find the will to go travel for long periods of time anymore. With my kids it was easy, i took them along but with him i am afraid i will miss an inch of growth. Plus i have become his favorite clown.
      Give a little love to the ones who think you are their enemies, and tell the ones you love they are right to think so.
      I love you guys and girls.

  30. Haha haha....that's funny. It is. Well guys I'll let you get back to work. You do work for a living.....right? The only reason I ask is because we got a few here in the US that just seem a little to young to be retired. They some how conned their way into collecting SSI. THEN, have the balls to complain about their government.....and another persons government. And I'm not talking to the ones who are REALLY disabled. Only the ones that aren't. (anyone can get a note from the doctor) These ones haven't the right to have a say in anything about their government or.....anyone eles!

    1. Ha ha ha....that is funny!
      How do you know what people do for a living? What people did for a living? What people are willing to do for a living?

      Looked up SSI..and found Sustainable Solutions International, Survey Sampling International, Strategic Simulations Incorporated, Scuba School International. I am sure they have many employees and some of them are possibly hiring.

      May be some people work for TDF as volunteers, or some may have made it big somehow in the past. There is also the under the table work too, you know manual work a bit illegal. These are hard times, having a high paying job sometimes means you got enough money to borrow twice what you make and you're more in the hole than the guy who works minimum salary.

      In my opinion most Government officials do exactly what needs to be done to have people complain, talk about workers who fill their pockets with free money!

      You call yourself Proud in US, if working is what makes you proud, the better for you. Just don't go change your name for Judge in US.


  31. Back to the Doc...
    77% of US citizens describe themselves as Christians until that number goes down to near 50%, the US will continue to sell politics through means of Christianity. It doesn't matter who you elect, you are putting someone at the head who is pro Christians in appearance. Both main party play that religious card non stop, the only difference is the drawing on the back of the card.

    A president's oath of office, this affirmation is REQUIRED by the US constitution:
    " I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States".
    "Franklin Pierce was the only president known to use the word affirm rather than swear, though Herbert Hoover is often listed to have as well, due to being a Quaker. Theodore Roosevelt did not use a Bible when taking the oath in 1901. Dwight D. Eisenhower, Harry S. Truman, and Richard Nixon swore the oath on two Bibles. John Quincy Adams swore on a book of law. Lyndon B. Johnson was sworn in on a Roman Catholic missal on Air Force One. Washington kissed the Bible afterwards, and subsequent presidents followed suit, up to and including Harry Truman, but Dwight D. Eisenhower broke that tradition by saying his own prayer instead of kissing the Bible."
    Wiki ( i wiki so i have the facts right, not based on thin air)

    If a president was to take office and not recite this oath, he would have the majority of his country against him for omitting that single little detail no matter how good he intends to do. It reminds me of traditional wedding vows...it's good that young people are often writing their own wedding vows, politician should too.

    How about a science political party....that would be the day!
    Could be called the Technocratics.

    1. Do you know that oath is pretty much the same as the oath of an American soldier. Most people say our military are defending the country. They're not. They are bound by oath only to defend the Constitution.

      Maybe we should take pause before we try to make it suit our selfish dogmas, and remember the price paid by those bound by oath to defend it.

    2. Becoming the president does not automatically mean that the individual who becomes president must give up personal ideals. When he takes the oath of office, he pledges by his deepest held convictions that he will uphold the constitution. This means that, in spite of his own belief system, his first loyalty and priority is to the constitution. If he betrays the constitution, he also, in turn, betrays his own integrity and his own solemn vow. This vow on the Bible does not violate the idea of separation of church and state unless this person is forced to do so by law. You have demonstrated that this is not the case.

      What is troubling about this fundamentalist up-swell is that they ignore what the constitution actually says. They have decided what is more important is what it intends. It seems a deceptive way to uphold the constitution without having to do what it says. Intentions come from a very grey area and suggests an interpretation that could come from a personal agenda. Laws that come from or uphold a specific religious viewpoint will be possible if they are allowed the position of a Christian intent of the constitution.

      Although, as you say, 77% of Americans claim to be Christian, many of that number still believe that the church and the state should stay out of each others business.

    3. Threre is a vast difference in being a private Christian who upholds the principle of separation of church and state (the great majority of Americans) vs a Christian Recostructionist who believes in trading in the Constitution for Biblical Law (the tea party).

  32. Back to the doc. This may sound counter-intuitive but I say let the Christian right have at it. OK guys put your religion into the government. Do as you wish with the constitution.

    Can you imagine the absolute chaos. Baptists, Methodists, Mormons, Lutherans, Church of Christ, snake handlers, Catholics, Jehovah Witness, and every sect, cult, and self-appointed Messiah that can crawl from beneath a rock at each others throat over just exactly what is and what is not a Christian principle. They'll utterly and completely destroy themselves. I'd buy front row tickets just to watch.

    Then and only then will these foolish people understand why the United States Constitution is anything but a "Christian Document". That is if there are any of them left to understand.

    1. First, they'll come for you, then they'll fight it out amongst themselves:)

  33. religion dumds down debates and people. end of. it has no place in a modern , foward thinking society. let us all try practising humanism . see how we get on when we're not bombing the **** out of countries under the guise of spreading democracy.
    american politics represents all that is wrong with the capitalist system. here in the uk is almost as bad. the corridors of power are awash with undeclared cash lobbyists from major companies use to forward their agenda.
    and as for sepration of church and state? that was what the founding fathers where all about? not to mention how adverse they were to the creation of a central bank.
    its similar here in the uk where we have 11 bishops who sit in the house of lords. luckily we don't really have an evangelical problem.
    career politicians and higher echelon clergy have no real idea of whats going on in ordinary peoples lives and nor do they care.
    and as for the argument people don't do bad thing out of the fear of god is laughable. two words....ted haggard.
    and how there can be senators and congressmen who believe in creationism is mental. it makes a mockery of every right thinking american.

  34. did this lady say the bible prevents crime? ! lol... wow -No millions of people were burned alive for absurd crimes like witchcraft or being Jewish...when religion was dominant. Not too mention what Christians did in the New World 'pacifying the Indians.' And it goes on today with intolerance of homosexuality and fighting against the use of condoms even in HIV ridden Africa.. They dont care bc they believe in the fantasy of an afterlife. Sick. Just like Christian GW Bush took us to war on lies.. creating the one of worst human atrocities in recent times. He is a war criminal if ever there was one.

  35. How did a strong Christian based country begin to fall from grace. I believe in the Father..Son..and the Holy Ghost personally myself.(although I sure as h*ll dont display it) But I believe organized religion of any kind is nothing more then a leading ingredient for future genocides. I don't believe in pushing my personal views on God on anyone just like I wouldn't tolerate an ex Christian or atheist running their little neck at me.(of course if they did on a website..what can you do?) It's hard for me to watch the US people slowly loose it's once strong spirit of unity.

  36. People here in the US better watch what they wish for because it might just come true! We might just get your "PEOPLES" president.....then what? Is it going to miraculously light a fire under a perfectly healthy welfare recipients a$$ to learn a trade or get a job? Is the "new president of change" gonna take care of everyone's self inflicted debt worries? And just like that....POOF!..everybody changes their personal behaviors and gets a little ambition to get up and achieve the American Dream they've always wanted?....pssst! let me tell ya something.....the oppurtunity for them to achieve that dream was here all along.

    A true peoples president ain't gonna put next weeks paycheck in your savings. He/she is gonna put it into a health care plan....welfare..foreign relief....and the list goes on. Now I know there are people who really need welfare so I'm not addressing them. Its the perfectly healthy ones that are more then capable of earning their way. The 25 yr olds that claim manic depression and claim they hear voices so they don't have to work and collect free SSI and receive free medical aid the rest of their worthless lives! Now you tell me how long this"CHANGE" a lot of you seem so eager to want going to last? To run a nation like the US it takes a bit more then a compassionate and fair leader.

    Unity in the US is dying because a lot of its people take its security and freedom for granted. I'm not a government lover. All I am is a blue collar welder that is witnessing his country loose it's sense of unity and pride.

    By the way, how many of you commenters are there that hate the US? Is your nation continually invaded?..threatened?..Do you have war sirens in every town?....does your government do what ever it takes to secure YOU'RE safety and future resources? Because if they are then their for the people!

  37. Political campaigns are really all about getting people to play the game. Fostering emotional support is important. Afte all, everyone wants to believe they are an important part of something bigger than themselves. Self validation through rationalization. But once these people are seperated from the excitement of the group they exhibit memory loss of many of their previous positions. It's not easy to admit to yourself you have been so easily manipulated. We all like to think we make up our own minds. But when only offered choices rahter than creating our own, we are herded through a maze not of our own creation. That is the tea party membership.

  38. @lakhotason
    Contraception beats abortion every time. Abortion goes against our sense of personal morality, especially if one is a mother already.
    I know Catholics who stopped using contraception when the pope decreed - and then had to seek out secretive abortions as a consequence.
    Prevention has always been the best cure, and I agree - 'it's really, really hard to have an abortion if you aren't pregnant'.

    1. Norlavine. I once knew this woman who employed her fertility as a hedge against starvation (and thirst). As long as there were a few to care for and one on the way, the welfare checks sailed in with astonishing regularity. In my salad days, I would occasionally approach this woman and, as a taxpayer, ask her how my child was (needless to say, she didn't think it was funny). I hope in an oblique way this responds to your post.

    2. Quality child care, health insurance coverage, and training make it possible for former welfare recipients to get, and keep jobs.
      Mel Carnahan

      We should measure welfare's success by how many people leave welfare, not by how many are added.
      Ronald Reagan

      That child could have remembered you as the man who sat with him every now and then and taught him something.
      Instead we are told how you practiced being rude from early on.

    3. @robertallen1
      The employment of fertility as a career choice by a woman has naught to do with her being 'anti -abortion' or 'pro abortion',the same way a woman who takes up prostitution as a career move isn't usually a nymphomaniac.
      If abortion is the only way out, so be it, but in my book, prevention is always the best cure.

    4. You'd have to be mad or Mary Poppins to consider that a career choice, long hours and terrible pay!

    5. Supplemental Security Income. Part of Social Security.

      I would have asked him what HE is doing online during work hours.

  39. Either vote Obama or don't vote at all. I'm not trying to get into a political argument, but if you cast a vote for Santorum or Romney (depending on which douchebag wins the primary) then you have a lukewarm I.Q.

    ...and this is coming from someone who voted McCain in '08...

    1. You might have a slightly I.Q. by voting for Obama, but the results will be the same.

    2. Moved this comment.

  40. Yeung Xiao, Thank you for the clarification. It is appreciated. Still I am wondering.......... Only rich men holding office?!?!? Is that not what we currently have in place??

    1. Right now, Only rich men are running for president. However, I am sure there are many example of congressman (and woman) and senators who were not so well off when they got into office. This would not be possible if they were not paid.

      but you are right, it is still a major problem. I believe is that there are still way too much private money in our political system. with that money comes so much influence. All candidates are force to either suck up to the rich, or be rich themselves, or else they would be trying to run an election with no advertising budget. and you and I both know, no matter how good your ideas are, or how much public support you have, the budget makes the candidate. just look at ron paul vs Romney.

  41. lol "you belong in new york"

  42. Oh yeah, and the bible is *not* full of descriptions about murdering children and suchlike. Ahhh, the selective reading of the fundamentalist:)

  43. meh, the only reason they've dragged these lunatics out is so that Jeb Bush doesn't seem like such a joke in 2016.

    1. there is probably more truth in that statement than some realize.

    2. in all fairness i didn't come up with that theory, i've heard it be bandied about a few other places.
      Although i can very much see that happening, and hopefully as it becomes more obvious, so can the right people.

    3. Unrtunately not. They mean exactly what they say. They want a "Christian Nation" and no non bible-thumping fool will ever win the Repubican nomination again. The religious right is now in the GOP driver's seat.

  44. Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I believe that our "Founding Fathers" served their positions without pay. Each one being a business man in his own right.
    I believe they served as a matter of honor ( well a few did skew certain policies in the favor of their own interest.) Still, I wonder just how many would lie so quickly if they were not receiving a "Lifetime" pension for a paid position?

    1. You are not wrong, the founding fathers were not paid. but the problem with this model is that only the rich men can participate in politics, and feed themselves at the same time. by the public paying for salary politicians, politicians are more able to serve the public. The problem as far as i can see with our politics is not too much public funding, but not enough public funding. Political parties increasingly need to seek the favour of the rich to ensure reelection. This gives the rich and private interest more influence then the average citizen, which is not in the sprite of democracy.

      Democracy is founded on the idea of one person one vote, not one dollar one vote. just in case you think I am over dramatic, Koch borthers pledged 100 million dollars to defeat Obama, regardless of your political standing, you can't deny that this money will have an influence on elections. More influence then two equal citizens should have.

  45. I hope the US Constitution and Bill of Rights wins in Nov. I know that means one particular person cannot win.

    Here's praying for individual liberties coming back to America in November.

    1. The person you're talking about is a religiou fundamentalist belonging to this very tribe... Ron Paul.
      Look up Google Ron Paul + Christian Reconstrution and "6 rights you would lose under President Ron Paul"

  46. @over the edge

    That is the LIBERAL stance. As a conservative I can tell you, we KNOW we have no right to tell a woman what she can do with her body when she is the only factor in the equation; that's a matter between her and her creator. But 2 things you have to understand:

    1. We will not pay for her abortion pills;
    2. When she is pregnant, someone else's rights must be added to the equation (ie the unborn).

    And as for the upcoming election, I pray the winner is the US Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights.

    1. Nor do you wish to allow her contraception either, especially if she is a teenager. I find that peculiar for the best way to end unwanted pregnancies is also the best way to end abortions. I mean it's really, really hard to have an abortion if you aren't pregnant.

    2. The numbers of children taken into care each year runs into the hundreds of thousands, if cost is your problem then you should think about the cost of care for each of them, the price the children pay, the mess the care system makes of their lives and the messed up people it produces. We have done some fostering, some of the kids that have come to stay have been bounced from home to home for the best part of their childhood and the older and more troubled they become, the less chance the have of finding a permanent home. If you want to end abortion then you must also take on the responsibility and duty to care for the kids that are left unwanted and unloved. You can't have your cake and eat it. When those same troubled kids turn to drugs or crime or prostitution, or end up in violent relationships desperately hoping for love or follow in the footsteps of their parents and give up on their kids, when you see them living in boxes, drunk and alone, will you feel responsible as you should or will you hang your head and hurry past, maybe even judge them a little. I know this happens, it happens a lot and I've seen it with my own eyes.

    3. How right you are. But being right is less important to these people than adhering to political dogma.

      A recent study has shown that abortion rates are HIGHER in countries where abortion is illegal largely because contraception is also illegal in these countries and wouldn't you know it, American conservatives wish to make abortion and contraception illegal here.

      Now add 47,000 deaths and over 3 million serious health problems from illegal abortions in those countries and you're bordering on de facto genocide based on "religious" principles. Sound familiar?

      So much for for their self-righteous claim they wish only to save lives. And they call this "Compassionate Conservatism".

      Fools that they are, fools they will always be.

    4. Last I read it was estimated that one in six women will die and three in five will suffer infection/complications including the inability to conceive or carry a baby to full term. Don't worry though Lak, they all get to go to heaven.

    5. Which brings up Rick Santorum's wife. She damn near died from a pregnancy gone bad. Now you'll find claims on the internet that she had an abortion to save her own life. Those claims are not true. She delivered the baby who died within a couple of hours.

      She was offered an abortion to save her own life and she rejected it. Good for her for sticking to what she believed in. I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is that she had a choice, something she and her husband wish to deny to all other women.

      Aside from that, you really must read what she and Santorum did with the fetus. Macabre is the word that pops into my head.

    6. Don't know what they might have done with their baby, don't think I want to. It might freak me out :( People are strange when they're grieving and if you say it was macabre then I will take your word for it. You hit the nail on the head though, it's all about choice, informed choice at that. I don't think any woman wants to find herself in a position where she has to make that decision, the last thing they need is a guilt trip.

    7. I'm gonna tell you anyway. They took the fetus home. Essentially they had a corpse laying around the house for a few days. Well not just laying around. They had their other children play with the corpse and sleep with the corpse so they could get to know their "brother". Then they took family photos and individual photos with the corpse one of which sits on Santorum's desk to this very day.

      Still have election envy?

    8. Oh dear. Now I have to find a way to make that hide in my brain where I don't have to look at it. How am I supposed to make that OK? it feels so........ Well I don't know. If I did still have election envy that knowledge would help me to narrow the field. I feel a bit queasy. :(

    9. Hey Lak, this has been going round and round in my head, some stuff is hard to put away. Anyway, wondered if you've ever seen any of the Victorian photos of the dead, often their children. Very disturbing, on the other hand maybe we are too removed from it all. My Grandma used to help lay out bodies so it must be a fairly recent idea to put them far away. Not keen on dead people, they really do look empty but still to real.

    10. That was what was going through my head when I was writing to you about the dead child! There is a particular name for those photos but I'll be damned if I can remember what it is.

    11. Books of the Dead.

    12. Who cares It doesn't matter anyway, god doesn't exist there for the idea its immoral to abort doesn't matter.

    13. Perhaps you should care for one. These people want to impose their "morals" on you.

    14. Unlike you I'm not concerned over what becomes of the republican party and there morals and ideology. Religious people are in decline. and Instead of talking about people we should have alive today (which is pointless) you should focus on the education of are schools and kids.

    15. Ben, the Republican party is a joke (and so are the Democrats for that matter). The Tea Party is the largest collection of buffoons ever assembled. All of them tell you they want to return to the good old days of Constitutional purity yet none of them will tell you what good old days they're talking about returning to. I mean if you return to something by definition you must have been there before.

      In reality they aren't talking about a return to anything. What they want is to remake the Constitution in their own image.They try doing this by some pseudo-historical bullsh*t claiming America was founded on Christian principles when even a dyslexic third grader with one eye covered can spot that lie.

    16. Again, you are right on point (I responded to one of your later postings first). Like true fundamentalist Christians, these people lie and deceive to "prove" their point, as they endeavor to make personal decisions such as abortion and birth control matters of public policy and bring others down to their own level of ignorance and aboriginality.

    17. My god, but you're doing well. And speaking of abortion and birth control, shall we discuss that monster known as Sister Theresa.

    18. You mean Mother Theresa?

    19. I do, my mistake.

    20. This is how you feel flawless?

      By the way, i am Canadian too, the other kind, the street smart. We have many of those too.

    21. Street smart people are a dime a dozen.

    22. You can always continue to be insulting. You're the best at it, at least here on TDF.
      As i said; won't work with me.

    23. Not when the streets concerned are of 40+ countries.

    24. That is where I will agree with you Az, anybody would be hard pressed to top your extensive street smarts from travelling all over the world. Takes a lot of guts, specially when you did a lot of back packing in foreign lands.

    25. The young people of this generation are well travelled too.

      I was saying the other day to my daughter's friend, how funny it is that when you backpack the world you have the impression that you are standing still and the world comes towards you, but when you are living at home it is the opposite, the world is still and you have to move towards it.
      Not sure if i am explaining it right. I am tired...bed time! Both my daughters and my 1yr old grand son left for Mexico today...and the travelling continues!

    26. @Azilda,

      I agree with you on that. But what makes it even more educational and enjoyable is when you live, work or just socialize with people around the globe.

      I myself have been to 10+ countries on 3 continents (and made friends from 50+ countries) and I must say that, for me personally, those trips will never be replaced by any kind of formal education whatsoever.

      And I also find this to be very true: "when you backpack the world you have the impression that you are standing still and the world comes towards you, but when you are living at home it is the opposite, the world is still and you have to move towards it."

    27. Let me know when you are in Toronto Canada.

    28. Our home is always open to y'all if you come to Manila. Seriously. We've opened our home to all who want to come. Thought for the day: A house in not a home without a gecko . . . or two, or twenty!

    29. well i would love to do work in Borneo or Sumatra with Orangutans so if im in the area I will be sure to hold you to that offer.

    30. He probably means the "The ghoul of Calcutta" lol

    31. @SrqSeo
      1 i am assuming (correct me if i am wrong) that you are talking about "Obama care". first off it is the insurer and the employer that have to provide for these things not the taxpayer. secondly what if someones religion or value system dictates that they refuse all medical care ,are a pacifist (no military) or home schools their child can they opt out of the taxes for these programs?
      2 like it or not it is legal and has stood up to all challenges. If abortion was abolished it would still happen only then it would go back to back rooms and alleys and i don't think either of us want that.

  47. Let us thank GOD, that he did not invent the INTERNET. That HUMAN BEINGS invented it... spread the word with electrons.

  48. I'm not an American but seeing as American influence is prevalent nearly everywhere on the global stage through media, war etc the coming years and election are very important. I hope for all our sakes things change and necessary measures are taken toward a more humanistic approach in the governance of its people and the treatment of other nations. The sick and twisted most likely insane politicians in business suits and red ties have done a supremely excellent job of dumbing down and de-moralizing the masses but it can only go so far. I'd love to see those old, withered, decietful orators loaded onto a C-130 and be disembarked down a dusty ramp into the countries they've been so quick to wage war against. Shielding their eyes from the heat and dust as they get handed a uniform and weapons to kill with knowing its over for them. We the people of Earth don't have to do a motherf--king thing for these people. I hope Americans realize this because this is a joke. I hope Ron Paul wins. I hope he wins everything.

    1. Ron Paul! That might be the first thing I agree with you on!

    2. so right bro love your work wander if the Americans can see that what they are voting for affects everyone not just them i think if they did there views on Government might be a bit different oh and Go Ron Paul

    3. Sounds exactly like something someONE could have written a few months before Obama was elected...you wait and see...get Ron Paul in there and within 4 years someONE will copy and paste your message.
      Elections suck...the loudest message would be sent straight to the top if we all stayed away from the polls...at least for a day or two or three or more if needed, and then elect a group of 30-40yrs old, no older or younger. It says a president has to be at least 35yrs old...sounds really good to me!

    4. I'm picking up what you're layin down. Morrison(Jim) had it right all those years ago. The way to change things is for everyone to quit. But that won't happen.

    5. "They've got the guns but we've got the numbers"

      Jim Morrison

    6. I am not saying "We all quit", i am saying "We make them quit". Remember they are the 1% who send the rest to war, who make the rest work for them, who control the money and what it's used for, who create laws to put us in court and sometimes in jail for no valid reasons.
      I am saying...enough is enough and the only way to tell them that loud and clear is to stop playing their game.
      Tell me you trust any present politician...i always like a good joke in the morning!

    7. If Harry Truman were around today, I would trust him. My favorite President. He didn't put up with the crap you see so prevalent today. The man would kick your a$$ and make you like it.

    8. Harry Truman:
      "If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don't want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances. Neither of them thinks anything of their pledged word."

      "We have discovered the most terrible bomb in the history of the world. It may be the fire destruction prophesied in the Euphrates Valley Era, after Noah and his fabulous Ark."
      He still went ahead and used it twice against Japan.

      We like past politicians because of the stories we were told about them, most of the times cleaned up published news to make a nation feel better about it's own doing against others.


    9. That is a rather simplistic view of Truman and his use of the Bomb.

      What would you have done had you been Truman? Not use it and allow the carnage to continue? A lot less Japanese died from those two bombs than would have died had we invaded their island. Not to mention American lives saved. It's all about reality and not about post-war revisionist history. The Japanese attacked us as you remember and we offered the the option of surrender from day one.

      And history shows him to be absolutely correct concerning Germany and the Soviet Union. He at least was smart enough to see there was no difference between the two despots.

    10. You confirm what i say under his two statements.

    11. Don't understand what you mean.

    12. When Truman ruled, you weren't even alive to see the reality the world was living in. You honour the man on the history written by the *so called* winners.

    13. Nor were you alive either but you qualify yourself as discerning the "true" Harry Truman. If it works for you then it damn well works for me.

    14. I don't discern the true Harry Truman, i quoted him and added that the written history of the winner elevates the winner above others despite what really happened (something we will never know perhaps).
      I don't doubt Truman had to be responsible for a lot of good, in that position they all should.
      You are free to think whatever you want of your past presidents or of the present one for that matter.
      But keep in mind that a president is never transparent....never will be in the present system and quite possibly never will be ever.
      A PRESIDENT IS A PUPPET ATTACHED TO MANY MANY STRINGS, and the mass are smaller puppets attached to lower strings.

    15. Despite my disagreement with some of his decisions, especially the OSC, the precursor to the CIA, Truman is the only president in my lifetime that I have any respect for.

      However, his situation was similar to Teddy Roosevelt's. The mainstream politicians wanted to get both men out of the way and the political deadend known as the Vice Presidency seemed the best way. However, due in Roosevelt's case to a bullet and in Truman's to a heart attack, both men became president--and unusual presidents they were. In his first term, Truman was faced with a hostile Republican Congress which he described as "the worst Congress since the one that impeached Andrew Johnson." In addition, most of the elite of Washington, D.C., disliked him and, of course, vice versa. They told him that he would never be elected after his term was up. So Harry then stated that in that case, he would do whatever he damn well pleased--and he pulled his own strings, beholden to no one and nothing--and when he said, "the buck stops here," history shows that he meant it. There was none of that, "Oh, it was that goddammed Dean--I told him it was wrong." "I never touched her" so typical of the finger-pointing chief executives in my lifetime.

      In short, he and Teddy Roosevelt were the most transparent presidents in the 20th century--and two of the biggest characters who ever occupied the White House.

    16. @Azilda
      Those U.S presidents whose aim was to become 'MASTERS OF PUPPETS', found themselves only as 'PASTORS OF MUPPETS' xx

    17. You're funny....almost a perfect letter mixed up. You are sinfull today.

    18. You could be the equivalent of an unborn child who in 60yrs will say George W Bush was the best president ever.
      On Trumam: His approval ratings in the polls started out very high, then steadily sank until he was one of the most unpopular men to leave the White House.
      Written history made that change, could happen to Bush even though i hate to think it could.

    19. But he is now rated as one of America's best Presidents. As I said his focus was to do the right thing, not to listen to pollsters.

      If you ever get a wild hair take some time and read his oral biography "Plain Speaking". He hides nothing. You will have a very different opinion of the man.

    20. Truman's approval ratings were so low that he got re-elected by a landslide, despite the Gallop Polls, despite the media's and mainstream politics' support of Thomas E. Dewey, despite the enmity of the Hearst Newspapers.

      He might very well have gotten re-elected after his second term, had he and Bess not had enough of Washington and longed to retire to their small town environment. He was one of the few men who apparently left the White House as poor (or moderately wealthy) as when he entered it.

      Azilda, please research before posting--if you don't, it puts you on the level of a creationist.

    21. When he left office in 1953, Truman was one of the most unpopular chief executives in history. His job approval rating of 22% in the Gallup Poll of February 1952 was lower than Richard Nixon's was in August 1974 at 24%, the month that Nixon resigned.

      He was the creationist not me.

    22. Az - Don't pull factoids from wikipedia or where ever and expect them to show the true measure of the man. You're better than that and I know it.

      There are many reasons that may have contributed to Truman's approval rating but there is one reason in particular. In 1951 the UN and the US were pushing the North Koreans and Chinese out of South Korea after their invasion of S. Korea. The commander of the US (and UN) troops was none other than Gen. Douglas MacArthur, American "hero" of WWII. The General was a semi-god to the American people.

      But the General had a big problem. He was a pompous, ego driven a$$hole to put it bluntly. He could not get it through his head that Truman was his commander and Truman was, after all is said and done, the person who calls the shots (no pun intended).

      The General had his grand plan of using nuclear weapons to bomb China and North Korea to oblivion and Truman said hell no. The General thought he knew better and tried to go around Truman (his commander) by going to the American press. He went so far as to openly ridicule Truman as being soft and un-American. Truman warned him. The General took no heed and continued his campaign in the press.

      Truman being the man he was fired the General and all hell broke loose. The press trashed him, Congress went ballistic, and the American people largely considered Truman to be nothing less than a traitor. But Truman held firm. And Truman was right. He would not use nuclear weapons and he would not let this General usurp the Constitution which clearly states the President is the commander-in-chief.

      Needless to say, Truman's approval rating plummeted and stayed there. Truman held firm. Congress invited the General to address a joint session, an obvious slap in the face to Truman but Truman still held firm. No use of nuclear weapons, no invasion of China, and no General who advocates such nonsense. Truman understood the military had to stay under civilian control as the Constitution intended. And Truman put the military establishment in its place.

      So you see, poll numbers don't mean squat unless you understand what's behind them. Truman had the guts and character to face down the General, the Congress, the press, and the American people because he was right. Damn the polls. The polls didn't take an oath to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution. That is the measure of Harry S. Truman.

    23. Well done (except for the obligatory typos). You know your history of the period even better than I do. But, once again, I would like to add one thing--and I'm sure you agree. When he ran for his second term, the Gallup Polls showed Truman as the dark horse--and we know what happened. So, you're right, mere numbers are not enough; you have to know what's behind them.

      Are you familiar with Darryl Huff's book, "How to Lie with Statistics?"

    24. "Dewey Wins Election" said the newspaper headlines. And there was Harry holding up the paper. His laughing face lighting up the whole room. That's how badly the establishment press misjudged this man.

      Give 'em hell Harry.

    25. That photo is famous.

      It's nice to know that we can agree on something. As I mentioned in several of my posts, Truman is the only president in my lifetime that I have any respect for although I take issue with some of the things he did. He was also the least wealthy and poorest educated of those who came after him.

      But you haven't answered my question? Speaking of the Gallup Polls, have you read Darryl Huff's book, "How to Lie with Statistics?"

    26. No I haven't. I wouldn't think a book would be necessary to know how to lie with statistics. Just joking.

      He was an exceptional President and statesman but that's not why I admire him. I admire and respect him because of the man he was.

    27. So do I.

      However, Mr. Huff's book which came out in the '50's is still available and I suggest that you look at it. It's just a thin volume which you can read in one or two sittings.

    28. Point to me one thing i wrote in our exchange here, that is not the truth.

    29. Az - Can we drop this? I'm not liking the tone this is taking.

      Harry Truman is a man I greatly admire. It's not an admiration that springs from being President, statesman, leader. It's an admiration of him as a man. He was quiet and unassuming. Shy and modest
      to a fault, he had a spine of steel and kahunas the size found elsewhere only on a bull elephant. He did what he thought what was right, something we should all strive to do. He was an honest man Az. Most importantly he was honest. Perhaps not always right, but always honest. Thanks.

    30. I second this.

    31. While I have disagreed with you on other issues, I am one with you on this, but would like to add something.

      At the time of the Manhattan Project, a plan to invade mainland Japan with its 1,600,000 strong army of zealots was being seriously considered. The potential loss of lives was estimated to be about 1,000,000.

      And you're right, for I think about a month before the two bombings, we had been dropping leaflets all over Japan indicating that we had a powerful weapon that we did not want to use and urging them to surrender--but, of course, with someone like Tojo and this idiotic concept of going to heaven by dying for your emperor (read country) which is really no better than Christianity incarnate, Japan decided to hold out. When asked some time later if he lost any sleep over his decision, Truman indicated that he slept soundly and that if anyone took exception to his decision, blame him and no one else--indeed, the buck stopped there.

    32. I reiterate that I did not agree with everything he did, but, you know, I would trust him too. I'm far better educated than he; I'm far more sophisticated that he, but he was a better man that I could ever think of being--and certainly a braver one!

    33. Now, you're right. You can't trust any of them. Congress is no more than the Roman Senate at the end of its heyday.

  49. Good 0
    Evil 1

  50. [shaking my head in disappointment] all croks+ religiuos fanatics in power? its not even funy:/

  51. wow... The founding father ware neutral but now days people wanto over-specialize, so that alone is FREEDOM's greatest weakness..

    1. Excellent observation about the neutrality of the Founding Fathers.

  52. And BARE it? Hell I'm with you woman.

    1. Sure you are Lak, I'm bringing the sunshine ;)

  53. Ok Ethan, I see we somewhat think alike in some areas.

    Numbers one and six.

    1. The Constitution adopted by the Founding Fathers did not recognize any rights of a citizen or individual. Those rights were only recognized after the Constitution was amended - the famous Bill of Rights - the first ten amendments to the Constitution. I will again stress this was not mere oversight in the original document. This is very telling and very important.

    6. Of course this is about the American Indian. At the time of adoption of the Constitution the policy of all governments of the Americas was, to put it straightforwardly, kill the American Indian and take the land. The adopted Constitution did not address this obvious problem because it served the new nation's interests not to acknowledge this genocide. This also was not a mere oversight. This was done for a specific purpose. Sins of omission are just as damning as sins of commission.

  54. You couldn't possibly be saying there is compassion in "socialized medicine". Every Tea Party-er knows that universal healthcare is nothing more than "death panels". Just ask Sarah Palin.

    Sorry dewflirt, meant this as a response to your last comment. Neglected to click the right button.

    1. Compassion? Not a bit of it! We're all just paying our way through the pearly gates ;) As for Sarah, have you seen the 'I can count to potato' picture ?

    2. I'm sorry to sound rude but I would rather not see anything "Sarah".

  55. No doubt christianity has had an influence on American society. But the U.S. Constitution was in no way based on christian principles. Most of the Founding Fathers were not even Christian. And some of them even had quite negative things to say about chritianity. There are official government documents, signed by John Adams, that state that the constitution was not based on christianity or any other religion. There are private letters, in the archives, of Jefferson, Adams and other founders who say explicitly that the constitution was not based on any religion whatsoever. This evidence is easy to find if you give a bother to do a bit of genuine research. It wasn't until the late 19th century, during a wave of southern revivalism, that the belief that our founding fathers were all upright, proper christians who, of course, based our constitution on chritianity, became a commonly held belief among some chritians. But it is simply not true. It is christian propaganda and wishful thinking. This is not what I think -- this is what the evidence tells us is true. But don't take my word for it. Don't take anyone's word for it. See for yourself. Instead of arguing for what you WANT to be true, do some genuine research -- if you know how.

    1. Treaty of Tripoli signed by President John Adams and ratified unanimously by the United States Senate and taking effect as the law of the land on June 10, 1797.

      Opening words of the treaty: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion".

      Strange words from a "Judeo-Christian" principled Founding Father and John Adams was a Founding Father. He more than any Tea Party mouthpiece would know the thoughts and motives of the Founding Fathers.

  56. Classic rednecks.

  57. Lakhotason-

    To refute your comment and to give accurate information, I'll tell you some facts.

    1) The majority of the Founding Fathers were deist, they were NOT Christian.

    2) They took these principles from other philosophes/early philosophers ("Men of Letters") like Rousseau and John Locke, these principles did not come from the Bible, they came from Enlightenment thinking.

    3) Indeed slavery was part of the culture, even Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner, but that was just the mentality of the time. They didn't think blacks could "survive" without being subservient as a slave. However, there were a few people that said slavery was wrong, such as Montesquieu and a few religious groups like the Quakers wanted everyone to be free.

    1. No Ethan you are missing the point. These people are keen to lay claim to the Constitution and THEY are the ones claiming the Founding Fathers were Christian and the Constitution is based on Judeo-Christian principles. I am saying very well, then you are claiming those rules I listed are Judeo-Christian principles because each of these rules were codified in the Constitution by Christians.

      Now this puts the Tea Party in an position of having to accept these rules as JudeoChristian or otherwise deny the Constitution as a Christian document.

      There is no misinformation here. Everything I cited is in the Constitution. I am more than aware of the machinations inherent in the writing of the US constitution and I could tell you facts until the cows come home.

    2. Very well, I can see what you did there. I'm not even religious, nor do I think religion is good for the world. I'm sure down the line things were added to really push a certain ideal that was based on deluded thinking. I know many facts as well, and I'll just say that I was giving more background on the Constitution.

      Also, I'm not sure where you are pulling #1 and #6 from the Constitution.

  58. God help humanity should they come to power! These people will make the Taliban look like amateurs!

  59. i just don't get it. they want to keep government hands off of their guns and out of their bedrooms. but have no problem telling a woman what to do with her lady parts. in Virginia there is a law that will force women to get vaginal probe before allowing abortion. they want to reinstate don't ask don't tell because a homosexual is allowed to die for his country as long as they keep their mouth shut. they can fight for our rights and freedoms as long as they don't ask for their own. they claim to fight against socialism without understanding many of the things they demand are socialist

    1. That last sentence, that's where my confusion lies.

    2. No, that is where the Tea Party's confusion lies!

    3. Wow, so much easier being English. All our politicians are the same, if they're talking, they're lying. No middle ground, no exceptions.

    4. It is not so much that politicians lie. Birds gotta fly, politicians gotta lie. Not a problem as long as you keep that in mind.

    5. Think it's time to start laughing again Lak. You'll find that life is still worth while if you just grin and bare it :)

  60. Those people with their imposed religion make me puke. :-(

  61. I wish this movement would go international. I think it's here to stay. I predict a tea party candidate will be president in 2016.

    1. C, how can you think that's right? They want to tell people how to live their lives, it's too personal. Why not concentrate on running the country and allow people to make their own choices. If abortion is the problem, well I'm sorry but it won't stop happening just because a law is passed. Women will and have always found a way to do that, often at risk to their own health. The death penalty has not stopped people committing murder. And so what if people are gay, they won't stop being gay because they can't get married. How would you police gayness anyway, random stop and swabs of camp looking men, or butch looking women? Can't lock someone up for being a bit effeminate ;) where would it end and who would say enough is enough. However far you might like to go, there is always someone else willing to go one step further. Faith and choices are personal. Anyway, do you really believe these people believe half of what they say, if you think Obama lied to get to the top what makes you think the tea party can't. I wouldn't trust any of them tbh.

    2. I am agreeing with the Tea Party and all others who believe the United States Constitution is based on Judeo-Christian principles. This document almost certainly reflects the deep influence of religion in the minds of the Founding Fathers. So let's have a look at this founding document without its amendments.

      First, the Constitution sets up the structure of the government. A republic with a democratically elected representative government split into three branches. Very good but certainly not Judeo-Christian.

      Now let's go to the part of the founding document where the Judeo-Christian principles are readily and undeniably apparent. This is the section of the Constitution that sets the rules about who and what our society is to be. And here are some of those rules based on Judeo-Christian principles.

      1. As a citizen and as an individual you have no inherent rights as nothing in the Constitution recognizes these rights. No freedoms of speech, press, assembly. Nothing, not even freedom of religion and this was no mere oversight.

      2. Women are once again given only quasi citizenship. They could not vote, seek redress, and were considered chattel belonging to the husband.

      3. Slavery was specifically institutionalized and made the law of the republic.

      4. If you were not a white male property owner you were not represented in the government for you could not vote.

      5. A black person is 3/5 human therefore not human at all.

      6. And by default the original inhabitants can be killed at will for they too are less than human.

      These rules are specifically and pointedly codified in our founding document. I for one will certainly concede they are Judeo-Christian principles. Even more, they eerily, but not accidentally, mimic the structure and rules of JudeoChristian religions.

    3. First I laughed but actually its not funny. Now I'm just confused, do they intend to cherrypick or are they going for the whole kit and kaboodle ?

    4. I know it's not funny either but you do have to laugh. They have no choice but to go for the whole enchilada but don't seem to realize exactly what they are laying claim to. As John Lennon said - "Most peculiar mama".

    5. The constitution like you said originally was not about granting rights to people......its sole purpous was to restrain government from trampling on rights people of the time inherently possessed sure today people have mentally evolved and have recognized more basic rights then they recognized at the time of the constitution and today we recognize more people than we did at the time of the founding of our country today we define and include more people with more rights and citizenship then the constitution originally did.... but the constitutions purpous was not to outline your rights because as we learn we discover more natural rights of individuals.... The Constitutions purpous was to limit and restrain the state so that it did not interfere with any rights recognized at the time.....

      If you don't know what an elephant is and therefore don't recognize one when you see one it doesn't mean there's no elephant there....

      When the constitution was written people in general didn't recognize slaves rights to be free.....it wasn't the constitutions job to open peoples eyes. it was the constitutions job to restrain the states power over the individual so individuals could be free to start recognizing more basic human rights for more people.

    6. Well you are sort of correct. During the writing of the Constitution the Founding Fathers considered and rejected enumerating individual rights in the document. They knew perfectly well what those rights should be for in a few months they did enumerate those rights in the first 10 amendments largely by insistence of the individual states. To put it in your terms, they damn well knew an elephant when they saw one.

      As for slavery, they knew that was wrong also, but the problem was they needed the Southern states to ratify the Constitution, hence slavery was codified. Also, a slave was considered 3/5 human
      simply to give the Southern States more representation in Congress.

      In short, all of those things in my list were done for political purposes, largely to appease slaveholder's interests.

      All that being said, I didn't make the list to only show the problems with the original document, I listed them to counter the assertion of the Tea Party that the Constitution is a document based on Judeo-Christian principles (it wasn't). My point was to say to the Tea Party, if you claim the document you must claim everything in it. If you insist that the document is Judeo-Christian principled then I must insist that slavery, genocide, women as property, and no individual rights are Christian principles for they too are in this "Judeo-Christian" document.

    7. Batting 1,000. My respect is growing. You're absolutely right. I don't know if you're American. If you're not, you know your history as well as most Americans should know it.

    8. Let's not forget the contribution the natives made to the US Constitution through The Great Law. A quick search didn't come up with anything, but there really should be a documentary made on the subject.

    9. That would be the Seven Fires Council, but most people refer to them as Iriquois - not exactly correct but it'll do for shorthand.

      They served as consultants to the Founding Fathers during the Constitutional Convention in exactly what capacity remains hazy. But two things are known for sure. They cautioned against having a President (should've listened) and their principal leaders were invited to the signing ceremony in appreciation of their guidance.

      An interesting thing about their government. Only men vote for council members and only men could serve on that council, but (and this is a big but), only the women had the power to remove any council member whom they felt was not fulfilling his duties.

    10. From everything I've heard and read, I like them. If you don't then we have very little in common and I needn't explain my reasons why to you. Peace! Charles B.

    11. Oops, wrote you a reply then lost it! I don't need an explanation C, I am happy to disagree with you and still like you. No worries :)

    12. You sound Like RON PAUL.... or his son Rand Paul....(both Tea Party Patriots involved in the movement I might add)

      Rand Paul for president 2016? I think there's a strong possibility

    13. Think I have election envy. Got a PM and his lap dog deputy that I'd like to be rid of asap. Is it bad to sound like RP? Hope he sounds like a girl :/

    14. I rarely say anything about someone's support for a political candidate and especially anything about Ron Paul. But I'm gonna go ahead and kick this hornets nest.

      Neither Ron Paul or his son will ever be President of these United States. If you were to really research this man and not listen to his schtick (and that's what it is) you would understand why he and his son are so distasteful to the majority of Americans.

    15. Really?

      I tried to look up some objective info on him and only found critiques from people who are also running -- so, clearly biased.

      Could you give me a few examples of what you mean by him being distasteful to Americans? I am very interested because I was thinking he was America's only hope right now.

    16. Google "Ron Paul Newsletters" for a start. He of course disavows any knowledge of the content of these letters but that is pretty weak since millions of dollars from subscription and sales went into his wallet.

      It is no accident that his most vehement supporters are white power advocates. He tries to disavow them also but that's hard to do when you have your picture taken with a Grand Imperial Dragon of the KKK.

    17. I am going to look into this further, I had never heard of it until now.

      But anyone can ask to have their picture taken with a person in the spotlight, that doesn't mean they know who that person is, or what affiliations they have. So I would not be quick to imply guilt by a picture imo.

      thanks for the reply! :)

    18. He knew exactly who this person was. Not only that he was known to pal around with him.

    19. Tea Party - A bunch of retirees on Medicare whining about "socialized medicine".

    20. Just got back after spending an hour on the street with an old lady that had toppled backwards down a set of steps. She cracked her head and twisted her new NHS knee. The ambulance guys were fantastic, kind, gentle and caring. Even offered to get my cardigan washed, I'd put it under her head as she kept lifting it and dropping it back on the pavement. Indulged myself with a little moment of pride, we all paid for her knee, the ambulance and her ongoing care. Wonderful. Wouldn't want it any other way :)

    21. I believe full out revolution is more apt to occur than what you describe. What sociopolitical movement is secular and already international... I believe that they will shape America. The majority of America is christian... Can we have a poll from the youths point of view?

    22. No revolution is in the making, DeAndre. If anything, hopefully a return to the fundamental contitution we already have in a democratically and peaceful and end intellgent way via congress and the courts. Peace to you, Charles B.

    23. I have a question for you Charles. You wish for a return to the "fundamental constitution". Precisely what period in our nation's history are you referring to? When in our history would you say we adhered to the "fundamental constitution"?

    24. Charles you astonish me! Just which country has citizens craaazy enough to make your wish come true? I'm afraid I've been giving you way too much credit as a somewhat logical and clear thinker even as I disagreed with virtually all of your opinions. Thanks for setting me straight with your comment; I have a clearer picture of your mindset.

    25. Dollers to Donuts there's already a Canadian branch of the Tea Party even as we speak. Wouldn't hurt to add Australia, and it would be nice to have the Philippines return to common sense and sound government either. I hold out very little hope for Europe, however. Too far gone.

    26. I'm Canadian Charles. I am unaware of anything quite like the tea party here. Even if you prove to be correct eventually, 100 crazies won't make a movement.

      If you can't find any evidence, I'll take my payment in doughnuts; Tim Horton's please.

    27. Ahh The good old Timmies. What a phenomenon that place is. There's not one single moment that place is not lined up around the corner either on foot or the drive-thru. You could probably put one on all four corners of an intersection and they'd all be busy. All for a place that sells crap coffee and even worse food. If I was to rob a place it would be a Tim Hortons, not a bank. The Tims has more money. I'm gonna make a documentary on that joint called 'Double, Double.' People really need coffee that bad?

    28. Actually, in my city there are three tim hortons in a row with one building between each (timmies, road, building, timmies drivethru only, building, road, timmies) -- and yes, all three are always busy!

      And have you seen their size changes? their new XL is about a litre of coffee! If you want to meet an angry Canadian, butt in line at any timmies...if you dare.

      I'd watch that documentary, great title by the way!

    29. I hear ya bud. Timmies is evil.

    30. As I mentioned in an earlier post on a different documentary, all the intelligent and well-informed posters on this site seem to be Canadian--and we're supposed to be better than you--ask anyone running for office.

    31. I really don't know. I'm not Stateside (I'm in the Philippines), but I just have a gut feeling The Tea Party is there too, and growing. But, it's ony a hunch. I'd gladly send you donuts if you send me brownies . . . or eggnog. I ain't had eggnog for like 7 years here in Asia.

    32. I know you're in the Philippines. All the more remarkable; an American living in the Philippines believing he has more knowedge of Canadian politics based on a "gut feeling". It speaks volumes concerning your beliefs.

    33. Whether the founding fathers based the new government of the United States on Christian values is a moot point. It has been understood for a long time that there should be a separation of church and state. A government that governs using the principles of a specific religion does not and can not fairly represent everyone. Jesus once said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's" Notice how he recognizes two entities in this statement with a clear cut distinction of each separate one. This would imply that God recognizes the role of a government but also of the church. Salvation can not be forced. It comes as the personal decision of an individual and the grace of God. Therefore, no church should ever use a government to impose its will and beliefs on the general population through laws, coercion or implied threats. That is not how people are brought to God.

      As a Christian you must believe in eternal life. The life that you have now is a short stopover in preparation for your life in heaven. It is not your place to impose your view of heaven here on earth even if it done through a democratic election. As you, like the rest of us, are a flawed human being, any view that you or any of us have about how heaven should be would be in error and is prone to lead us to a perversion of paradise. Trust God to provide you with the true paradise when the time comes and try to lead your life in as exemplary way possible until then.

      I hope you make it there.


    34. @Jack 1952:

      Flawed human being like the rest of us?? the only thing that is flawed is, and only if, there are gods, since you say humans are flawed then the gods are flawed since they made us in their image, they (gods) should go back to the drawing board and get their act together and do it right. Don't think they even passed basic human construction 101.

      Unless you are going by the bronze age myths of original sin, which of course is a crock of s***.

      Evolution and science is the only way!
      I'm just sayin.

    35. @Achems_Razor
      If we were made in the gods' images, why do we have to (blush) you know, go to the 'you know where' at least once a day? My only guess is: they have the softest tissues and the sweetest air fresheners lol

    36. Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to.

      Mark Twain.

    37. @lakhotason
      Touche x

    38. @norlavine:

      Right, and the great outhouse in the sky for all the 28,000,000 gods in recorded history must be humongous, wonder if they use toilet paper? and since the gods are omnipresent, means they are in all the bedrooms of the world getting their jolly's, invited or no.

    39. Evolution and science is the only way goes without saying or at least it should. I love all these brainwashed religious bumholes who say garbage like 'the jews are gods people' and the like as if they're saying something profound. If the Jews are gods people than what about everyone else? The 100 billion humans they estimate to have come and gone since we started walking upright. You, me, we, better get our heads around being unable to comprehend the universe because essentially we're all just tiny floaters in the cosmic jokers painted eye.

    40. Well if the Jews are God's chosen then I hope he doesn't decide to choose me. Damned if I want to go through what the Jews have gone through.

    41. Hey drinker, I'm gonna kick back with a couple of cold wobbly pops, and I suggest you do the same. You're starting to make sense.

    42. I know the frustration of discussing the veracity of the Bible with a Christian who insists on quoting from the Bible to prove that it is true. A person who believes that the country should be governed by God fearing leaders who would rule by the word of their book will never respond to a scientific, political or any secular argument that I might offer. He may listen, however, if I can use his own sources against that argument. It is imperative that this Christian element does not gain the political power that they want so badly. I don't have to believe that "The Wizard of Oz" is a true story to discuss the book. In the same way I don't have to believe in the Bible to discuss Biblical matters. If I can place just a little doubt in the mind of at least one of them of how God may not desire a Christian imposed government on earth, it may lessen the resolve that he has and may even cause him to rethink his stance. Isn't that what any one of us hopes when confronted by this rigid Christian stance.

      I have yet to meet the human being that is flawless. If you know of one please point him/her out to me. This would be a scientific wonder.

    43. @Jack 1952:

      Right, we are basically on the same page.

    44. Well, Jack, meet one. I'm so flawless that I even admit when I'm wrong--this way I'm assured of being right all the time.

      But seriously, you know what you're writing about. Maybe I'm being a bit quixotic, but I believe education is the key. Perhaps if more people knew something about the history of the bible and the cultures that spawned it, we could at least minimize the latest lunacy. I feel the fault is in the ministers, pastors, vicars, prelates who are so fearful of alienating their congregations and thus jeopardizing their livelihoods and positions that they devote their Sunday sermons to supporting the unsupportable. Why not use that time constructively in actual teaching? But anyway--

      I'm curious. Are you also Canadian?

    45. Yes, I am Canadian.

    46. Well, good for you. Most of the intelligent and well-informed posters seem to be from your neck of the woods, which doesn't say much for our system of education.

    47. The last time a movement like this went international, they called a little period in history called The Dark Ages. Be careful what you wish for, you may get it.