The Thinking Atheist
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Ratings: 8.47/10 from 189 users.
From the author: Using satire, research and some common sense, we explore common-sense questions about God.
A former Christian of 30 years, I ultimately found that religion, faith and scripture lacked any true answers, especially in the (bright) light of scientific discovery and the truth of Evolution by Natural Selection.
Having an insiders perspective of Christianity, I use my skills as a producer to stir the pot of debate and, hopefully, make it uncomfortable for anyone to be a mere spectator in the arena of ideas.
Note: This is not a documentary film in a strict sense. These are professionally edited short clips gathered from a YouTube channel named The Thinking Atheist.
There is no proof that God exists. I choose to believe that God exists because believing so makes my life better in more ways that I can count. We all have the right to believe as we will and I choose God, but not the God of violence, intolerance and fear. I choose a God of love. Just because...
The points of argument will always be mute because no one will ever PROVE there is a god. You can make all the claims you want to in the name of what you believe but you don't have proof and the burden of proof lies directly upon you.
@awful_truth:disqus
you stay on your one trick pony. you list some people who excelled in their field and use that to lend weight to beliefs they had outside of their field. look at the people you mention. why are they held up as giants within their field? it is because they held an idea (belief if you wish) then they proved those ideas to be correct. that is what made them great. their ability to back up what they claimed, everyone has ideas/beliefs and dreams the truly great are those who can back their ideas up.
you can continue to be a living example of Russels Teapot if you wish. go ahead and make your arguments from authority. but if as you implied you are here to stir things up and post to wind others up, well that is trolling and please do not go there. you already admitted you cannot prove the existence for god then falsely take solace in the fact that others cannot disprove him/her/it as if that is the way a logical debate works. you are right i cannot disprove the possibility of a "god" but if your god is based on the OT/NT please admit it. so is he? lets open this debate up . i am willing to lay all my cards on tha table concerning god. are you? so again. do you believe in one of the religious gods? if so which one ?
@over the edge: I do not believe in any of the religious gods that have been set forth by any traditional doctrine. As I have stated many time previously, I am a spiritual individual, not religious.
Perhaps this is why I understand Albert Einstein's view, where hard line athiests do not. (Can't grasp god without religion - deist/pantheist - check their definitons) I believe in the idea of higher forms of life, just not in traditional religious explanations. (god is just a word like the word universe)
Furthermore, I have laid my cards on the table several times in the past regarding what I think the universe is, (a brain) and gave a complete explanation regarding it's implications. (at length)
Of course, this is my own personal belief, and as such, is beyond the realm of irrefutable proof, as is those who vehemently contest that no such thing could possibly exist. (that is why it is called belief, no proof either way) Since all religious explanation is only an analogy of what many think the universe is, I believe my explanation is a far better than anything religion has produced so far. My position (my faith) has been formed by scientific observation, and scrutiny of the universe as a whole. (do you believe that you are alive? do you think the universe is alive? Is the electromagnetic spectrum just a frequence/wavelength of the universal brain/god?)
Since by your own admission, you lack belief, thus reject the god claims of others, I can respect your position, even if I don't agree with it. (my response to your blog to goldensilence 17 days ago confirms this)
With that said, for all the damage that religion has caused, you will find equally as many people who have found guidance, and purpose towards living a good life from it's teachings. To attack all religious people calling them id*iots, m*rons, etc for the crimes religious leaders of the past have caused, is akin to blaming all americans for the damage their leaders have caused in the last 100 years. (that is not logical, or moral)
Thus, the debate as to whether god exists cannot be won or lost, because it is unknowable. As I stated to robertallen1, to taunt people to provide proof is to imply disparity where none exists. (a meaningless argument) The bottom line is for people to exchange ideas with an open mind, in an attempt to better understand the environment in which we live. Since no such thing as perfect exists, not even science will ever be able to answer the really interesting questions, least of all with certainty.
Last, but not least, I can't respond to OT/NT, because I don't know what your acronym means. (please stipulate plainly) As far as robertallen1 goes, he has made it abundantly clear that he has no desire to get along in a civilized manner. (check his latest blogs) So, as long as he continues to denegrade without moderator intervention, I will 'do unto him as he would do unto others'. Since I have a great life outside this virtual world, I have no reason to be upset by any of this, and will derive much enjoyment in tackling any, and all who support his rude, disrespectful attitude. Until that changes, he will always be littlebob to me.
(respect is earned, not bestowed!)
It's been demonstrated time and time again that you have as much comprehension of Einstein's theological views as you do of chess and Bobby Fischer. So spare us your self-aggrandizing and intellectually insulting claim that as a "spiritual person" you somehow understand Einstein's theology while by their very nature, atheists don't, a claim equal in pomposity to your alleged scrutiny of the universe as a whole--as if you could do what no one else has been able to.
If you can't support your beliefs with something more than your "experiences," they're idiotic and placing them under the mantle of science is pretentious, not to mention dishonest.
You're a fine one to talk about what is logical or moral. Time and time again, you have been exposed as not only pathetically wrong and ignorant, but as a liar, a cheat and a coward as well, not only by me but by other posters.
If you have such a great life outside this virtual world, why don't you remain there where you might encounter larger numbers of the ill and under-informed who'll bow down to your ignorance and accord you the respect which you crave?
@robertallen1: Blah, blah,...blah, blah, blah. Time to change your meds littlebob, they are not working. Oh, by the way, you aren't as smart as you think you are, and any potential you have, is self limited by your hatred, and anger. How is that working for you?
Blah, blah, blah--a non-response if ever there was one. Of course, the reasons are clear.
i have no problem with most of what you have stated. i disagree concerning Einstein but i do not wish to go there again. OT (old testament) NT (new testament) . and finally the guidance people have found and even the good that has been inspired by the big three religions is not even close to even with the damage done. i do not hold the rank and file responsible for the leaders, but i do hold them responsible for willingly supporting these cults after the actions of its leaders is known. i do hold them responsible for the hate they have for people based on a different belief, sexuality, or a choice concerning their own body and so on based on an ancient book or because some leader told them to. i am Native Canadian and there is a special place of pure hate for the catholic church in the pit of my gut for them and anyone who willingly supports them. what they did to members of my family is unforgivable and i hold their members in the same light as i would hold any voluntary member of a hate group.
You're right. The doctrine of respondeat superior is as applicable to the Catholic church as it is to any other organization.
You probably don't wish to talk about what that vile organization did to your family, but my curiosity is getting the better of me.
@over the edge: Thanks for the clarification regarding OT/NT. Since you now know my thoughts, you realize they are not relevant to my belief system, and yes, I have read the old, and the new testament.
More importantly, I was born, and raised in Northern Canada, and live where the vast majority of the population is native canadian. I am not native myself, but have family, and close relatives who are. For this reason, I completely understand your concerns regarding the catholic church's intervention. (residential schooling in particular)
Now that you have given me this information, it makes it far more easier to understand why you have the feelings you do for the catholic church.
We must remember that many of the church goers today do not support the actions of their predacessors, (nor should they) and if they do, would have the same contempt from me, that you have expressed. (especially considering it is in contradiction with message of the new testament)
Sadly, evolution is a slow process, but it is still occuring. Just look back to the television of the 60's, and 70's (all in the family for example) and most would agree that what was considered funny then, is not so now.
I too, agree with much of what you said, and find myself torn when considering the support that we the electorate, both here and in the U.S, continuously provide for the very people, and elitists that create destruction around the world for personal gain. (greed)
In the end, I realized how brainwashed the majority of the public really is, because they are unaware that their church, or government, (take your pick) is not what they appear to be. This doesn't mean they are all bad, or that some are not trying to create change from the inside out, to which we should commend them. (in my opinion)
This is precisely why my approach is one of disseminating as much information as I can, so hopefully some day, it will reach a point of critical mass, where the stupidity of the past is not repeated.
In this, there is something to be learned from the new testament, assuming a person reads it for themselves, instead of listening to someone else's interpretation of it.
So, the real question is, do we hate the institutions themselves, or the people that support it, not realizing it isn't what they think it is? It is my belief that anger, and hatred is self defeating, and only reinforces the status quo that we would love to see torn down.
Thank you for your insight, and I hope I answered the questions you were asking, so that we may have a better undestanding. Take care, and best wishes!
P.S: Your response was honest, and respectful, to which I will always respond in kind.
Religion = fairytale.
Arguments are too funny. Religious people get no where.
here is an idea goldenscience. how about making clear what you believe? forget the arguments from authority as newton was also an alchemist and his scientific brilliance does not add weight to his claims/beliefs outside of that. there have been many great scientific minds that have had religious beliefs from most if not all faiths. but at the very least all but one of the major religions is wrong. here is your opportunity to provide positive proof for your supernatural claims. can you? or do you need to inject insults,logical fallacies and interpretation in place of actual evidence? i do not wish to get into a debate as i am taking a break from the religious debates as they go the way this one is too often. but i suggest you debate the others with your best positive evidence instead of the tactics so far used.
Not a chance. How about you tell me what you believe? If somebody states that all believers are idiots then using Newton as an example to refute that is completely legitimate. You seem to paint me as the one using deflective techniques to skew the argument!
What's the matter? Are your beliefs so idiotic that they can't stand up to scrutiny? Or is it that you can't own up to having no evidence worthy of the name?
Once again, Newton's belief in a supreme being does not prove the existence of one--and neither does anyone else's, famous or not, genius or not. You're the one with the deflective techniques.
I never said it did prove Gods existence I said it proves your statement to be complete rubbish - which it is.
A belief with no hard evidence to support it is idiotic and stupid no matter who harbors the belief.
You are laboring under the delusions that all you have to do is declare someone has lost and the person has lost, that all you have to do is declare something not Christian and it isn't-- won't wash and neither will your delusion that you speak for all sane people.
P.S. Another grammatical error, last word of first line.
@robertallen1: there is no irrefutable evidence to support belief/faith, (why it is called belief) and to continuously taunt others to provide proof for that which is unprovable, is to imply disparity where none exists. (it is better to remain silent and appear foolish, then to open one's mouth, and remove all doubt)
You are definitely 'thinking athiest', but not an 'athiest who thinks'. Since you are devoid of imagination, and creativity, and look to others to think for you, (spouting their credentials as proof) may I suggest you watch many of the other fine documentaries on this website, instead of simply trolling one documentary, attacking others for their ability to be open minded enough to think for themselves!
Maaaate, it may pay for you to click on Robertallens1 avatar before making a absurd statement like the one you have just made.
The topic range I have seen roberts posts to be informative and at times entertaining may make you think again before you make comments about other members of this site.
The mighty Robert's posts have been rather poor. In fact I have s*it better Atheists. My sole argument from the beginning was that his comment that all believers are unthinking m*rons is completely trashed by simply looking at the amount of great scientists who have believed. I NEVER SAID IT PROVES GOD.
Hey mate my post was intended for awful truth, so one would assume that your paranoid delusions of granduer the every post may be directed at you in someway is wrong.
I have not replied to any of your posts as from what I've read your belief in the "magic man" is enough for me to show you the contempt I think you religee freaks deserve.
Upper case writing is like shouting in the real world and that being the case, your christian values are shining through brightly with all the compassion and understanding to your fellow man....
It was upper case for the sole reason of that being the 4th time I have had to repeat myself because nobody can follow the comments. I never said I was a Christian either as I have already pointed out. Upper case is emphasis in this instance.
As I pointed out I have not conversed with you up until my reply to your act of grandeur so it appears to me as shouting. So you believe in god ?
You truly are a f*ck wit! See the Urban Dictionary definitions, take your pick of which you prefer. Where to start on what was wrong with that recent dumb-a$$ed post of yours? That fact you had to pat yourself on the back and double post it, as if that somehow makes your idiocy more palatable? Why? Awful. :(
Robert wasn't 'looking to others to think for him', he was disputing the other person trying to use that tactic, you must have missed Robert say;
"Once again, Newton's belief in a supreme being does not prove the existence of one--and neither does anyone else's, famous or not, genius or not."
Awful. :(
In response to your accusation that Robert is "simply trolling one documentary", I suggest you look at many of the other doco's here on TDF and look for some of the over 8,000 posts Robert has made here. This documentary has less then 1,500. Awful. :(
People that think for themselves? Religious people are not being told what to believe but think for themselves. Rrrigggttt, whatever you say, Awful. :(
Your 'truth' is once more, as usual, very Awful. You should reread your little proverb, and think harder before continuing to confirm your status by opening your mouth when you're incorrect. There's no doubt with you, that's for sure..again...
I never said it did prove Gods existence what is your malfunction? Read the comments properly or be quiet
@docoman: If you were critically thinking, you would understand that no one can prove or disprove the unprovable. No 'urban dictionary" will change this fact, thus your retort is as meaningless as Robertallen1.
Raising comments to defend what I was not making reference to, shows absolutely poor comprehension skills, and for all your bluster, (swearing, rude remarks) it does not change the fact science will never answer everything. (how is that working for you?)
Your false sense of superiority stems from your believing (faith) in what others have told you to be true, ergo, you are unable to think for yourself, accepting what they tell you, no better than those who follow a religious doctrine without questioning it's premise.
If your position was so sound, you and several others would not have to keep trolling the same documentaries attacking newcomers, using the same lame meaningless argument to debate something that can't be debated.
This only 'proves' that you have no desire for the exchange of ideas regarding the possibilities of existance, and you are left to live soley in the realm of physicality, "where your journey to the dark side will be complete." (entropy) Live dumb, and fester!
1. Just what won't science ever be able to answer and how do you know this?
2. By "they," do you mean those knowledgable in their subjects who can produce hard evidence for what they claim, as opposed to those of your ilk?
3. How many times do you need to be told that science is not faith and faith is not science?
4. Which lame, meaningless arguments are you referring to? The ones you can't refute?
5. Is there some realm other than physicality? Can you prove it scientifically, i.e., without invoking a god of the gaps. And if you can, what's the matter with it.
6. Haven't you learned by now that when you provide a quote, you must also provide a source? One way or the other, entropy is not the dark side.
In short, by taking refuge in what you cannot prove, you're the one with a false sense of superiority, in short, the dummy, not Docoman.
Psst. The word is "existEnce."
As usual, you don't address the issues raised. Because, as usual, you're wrong.
You came in to give your 2 cents worth, which as shown is a load of cr@p, worthless dribble. Try to deflect all you like, you're a fool that's wrong.
@docoman: Now, now, don't cry. Just ingest some more corporate pablum, and all will be well in the peanut gallery! LOL
I see you're still dripping your half chewed bolus from your skull-encased reticulorumen onto your keyboard and thus onto us here and posting your wannabe BS.
Hello too d1ckhead. :)
@docoman: Quite the linguistic minutia you have displayed dodoman! Just think of the profound insights you could have expressed, had you not forgotten to take your medication! LOL
Not the case mate, every time I read one of your posts it reminds me to take a pain killer. ;)
And that's what makes it so intellectually despicable. I'll be open-minded when the evidence comes in, but so far there has been done.
Another moronic post from you.
@robertallen1: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but you could never hurt me on your best day, with me at my worst!
And this is your idea of a rebuttal. You really suffer from a false sense of superiority.
@goldensilence: You are obviously capable of answering for yourself, but I couldn't help but put my 2 cents in for you in regards to robertallen1. Here was my response:
There is no irrefutable evidence to support belief/faith, (why it is called belief) and to continuously taunt others to provide proof for that which is unprovable, is to imply disparity where none exists. (it is better to remain silent and appear foolish, then to open one's mouth, and remove all doubt)
You are definitely 'thinking athiest', but not an 'athiest who thinks'. Since you are devoid of imagination, and creativity, and look to others to think for you, (spouting their credentials as proof) may I suggest you watch many of the other fine documentaries on this website, instead of simply trolling one documentary, attacking others for their ability to be open minded enough to think for themselves!
oops wrong person my bad
what i believe? i reject the god claims of others. where supernatural claims are concerned i lack belief. your turn.
I believe there is a God and the wisdom of the universe excels any human mind.
"Wisdom of the universe"--more gibberish?
Another orthographic error: excels.
Star Badge for you... Well done.
Wisdom of the universe? Give me a break!
"Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people"
Carl Sagan.
You believe in God? which God out of the 28,000,000 Gods in recorded history? and to top it off, which universe are you talking about in the 10^500 universes, M Theory/many worlds theory.
A scientific theory has much more substance than your invisible man made deities that dwell only in the mind.
I follow Science and have an interest in Quantum Mechanics. If everything amounts to vibrations of energy and waves and particles are not either until observed does this not challenge your "if it is not testable in the lab then forget it" outlook? I mean all physical laws break down at the quantum level so how are you going to test anything? Yes a Scientific theory will have more substance seeing as spiritual matters are intangible. If Carl Sagan who I admire but disagree with on that one issue believes Earth is insignificant then who am i to challenge him? But honestly if he called me an i*iot as soon as he found out I believed in God I would fight him back and say how can you call Earth insignificant? The universe creates the solar system which creates life and then not only that but creates a self aware and thinking being is anything but insignificant.
One way or the other, without evidence it's a silly belief.
One minute you’re twisting my words and ignoring my valid points but ultimately you agreed that you wouldn't censor a basic and brief education about the main religions in schools. The next minute I scroll down to find you postulating about wiping religious people out you crazed extremist. You really are dangerous. You are nothing but a little Nazi wannabe I have seen you for what you really are. You have issues putting all this time into bashing religions why don’t you get out more?
"If all the religees were killed off THROUGH INTERNECINE WAREFARE" the world would
start to become a better place. [emphasis added] is what I wrote.
And calling your points valid does not make them so, just as calling something Christian does not make it so, just as calling a person sane does not make him so. On the other hand, calling you a despicable, low, disgusting liar certainly makes you so, for it is based on your posts, especially your last. . .
@robertallen1: Your desire to see the death of many people who don't think like you, only reinforces the credibility that 'athiest thinking' is bereft of moral grounding, and ultimately, your lack of faith and imagination will be your downfall. (karma's a bi*ch!)
If they fight among themselves, that's not my problem. Let them kill each other for all I care. Then, as I said, the world might start to become a better place. Care to join the fray?
P.S. You're downfall began long before your first post on this thread.
@goldensilence: Amen to that!
@goldensilence: If you really want to get them wound up, just ask why Carl Sagan spent so much time doing up commucation plates, and records for pioneer, and voyager? According to them, the belief in alien life, is as idi*tic as believing in god, (no proof) yet he pursued it nonetheless. (go figure)
And Newton pursued alchemy and the philosopher's stone and thought himself one of god's chosen--now, why don't you go figure.
"I personally have been captured by the notion of extraterrestrial life, and especially extraterrestrial intelligence, from childhood. It swept me up, and I've been involved in sending space craft to nearby planets to look for life and in the radio search for extraterrestrial intelligence.
"It would be an absolutely transforming event in human history. But, the stakes are so high on whether it's true or false that we must demand the more rigorous standards of evidence—precisely because it's so exciting. That's the circumstance in which our hopes may dominate our skeptical scrutiny of the data. So, we have to be very careful. There have been a few instances in the [past]. We thought we found something, and it always turned out to be explicable." Carl Sagan, 1996 [emphasis added]
Simple-minded dolt--and liar to boot.
Last time for me..... Was Newton known as a genius? Yes he was. 100% fact. Did you state all believers are i*iootic m*rons? Yes you did 100% fact. Therefore by normal everday logic the majority of the worlds population including many great thinking minds are i*iots. You would love banning religion and killing its adherents you little tyrant. BTW where is Warefare because my mum needs some pottery?
One thing I find with you religee's that is certain, when backed into a corner and run out of things to say always resort to ad hominem attacks, Eh? Your mum? how old are you? probably another kid?
Yes the earth is insignificant to the cosmos, it is so small it disappears, and the sun is but a pixel, where does that leave us little tiny carbon units, we are nothing but a fleeting Planck memory. And certainly your infinitesimal brain wave activity invisioning all your deities amounts to absolutely nothing!
@Achems_razor: By the same standard, what does that make you, and all your babbling minutia? LOL No wonder you people have such fatalistic attitudes. Makes one wonder why you even make the effort to understand science when you are so meaningless. With that line of thinking, your time would be better spent getting laid, or drunk!
Now I see what the problem is. You can't get laid and you get drunk after just one beer. Sour grapes, creationist style. .
@robertallen1: You rude comments, and name calling is 'proof' that you lost a debate that could not be won, or lost. How loser is that. LOL
And just which debate is this? The one over the state of your intelligence?
"You people"? At least I am rounded off! you ain't! You are drunk on your gods. He is watching you, you better pray and be a good boy now, or no heavens gate. lol
Funny religee's.
@Achems_Razor: I believe the word you are searching for is truncated, since you have no point. Considering by your own admission you are 'rounded off ', (LOL) well rounded people like myself have no need to pray for that which I already have. (spirit)
"Well rounded people" like yourself have absolutely nothing.
Better spending your time getting laid and drunk now, than wasting time praying for it in the next life ;)
I gave up drinking 20 years ago. Getting laid gave up on me more years ago than that.
But, it hasn't cost me any time or effort!
@pwndecaf: Yes, the wisdom of experience has it's advantages. (saved a lot of money since than I bet )
I can only assume so, but I do assume it was a small fortune. Quitting smoking 15 years ago gets to be more of a money-saver every day, too.
What's left to live for? I like to nap.
@pwndecaf: I quit for 5 years, and started up again, and spent a small fortune in taxes I can never claim. (does that make me a good little socialist?) Once again, I find myself working at tackling smoking again. For the record, there is lots to live for, and napping is a good one!
perfect answer!
and oh god does not exist its just that plain and simple it does not advance you to pray to something that is not there and on top of that to pray when bad things come past your life instead of being on your knees get up and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
Getting laid and drunk everynight would eventually leave you feeling empty, alone, confused and in bad health.
You must speak from experience.
Why must I?
PS
I know this is a joke and normally I would laugh but coming from you it is the same boring diversion tactic it always was.
Ah, the morning after the night before. To stave off all of the above, try a full English and the hair of his dog. Failing that drink water, sleep the day away and swear you'll never do it again .... again ;)
a woman after my own heart lol.
Haha, bang on. Take water to bed and (important) drink it during the night. Failing that the English works a treat.
@dewflirt: We are in complete agreement!
"Yes the earth is insignificant to the cosmos"
You speak like you are an authority on the matter? Did the cosmos tell you this? Have you expanded your mind to overcome petty human considerations and lift yourself up to contemplating not just human existence but the entire cosmos....
What? he is alive! after 12 days, at least your LORD deity beat you too it.
What's the matter are you bored? You are questioning Carl Sagan, read the posts above.
Funny religee's!
Not really. I do lead a life away from the internet. Questioning Carl Sagan? I would read the posts had someone not deleted some of them.
What? you don't know how to "scroll up" to 13 days ago? My post to you.
Are you an authority on the matter? And you can only contemplate the cosmos backwards up to a certain point, namely the big bang. Beyond that... well, there was no beyond that. Time itself didn't exist for there to be a beyond in. So if you suppose a god that can somehow exist outside of time, you are still left with the problem of what sort of action such a being could possibly take to do anything, since time is required for any action. Even if you could somehow get past such a problem (i.e., the complete nonexistence of "past" at all), you'd still be left with nothing but faith in attempting to characterize the personal attributes of such a being, which seems patently ridiculous.
No I am not and the point is nobody is an authority on the matter of personal belief.
Personal beliefs are worthless unless there is something backing them up.
You tell me my experiences that do back up my belief are worthless? Maybe to you but not to me.
Which is to say they are worthless.
So people should wander through life without belief until they can back it up? No. You have it backwards. People form beliefs then test them with experience and alter them accordingly. In fact it is silly to argue such things. Either way works.
Nonsense. You start off with a hypothesis (not a belief) and work from there. And the answer to your question is yes.
You are ridiculous. Go through life without belief. Enough you plonker....
You're the one who's ridiculous with your beliefs which you can't back up.
robertallen1: Prove you are intelligent, and admit there is no proof for / or against the existance of a higher form of life. (God) If you can't, then you are the weakest link. Goodbye!
As usual you have it wrong--and deceitfully so. If you claim that there is a higher being (God), the burden of proof rests with you.
P.S. The word is existence.
@robertallen1: Burden of proof is irrelevent regarding issues of belief/faith. (unprovable either way, pure uncertainty) This is why you lost a debate that could neither be won, or lost, because this simple logic eludes you.
Your bi-polar brain (A or Z, nothing in between) is incapable of recognizing that the vast majority of life is a colorful grey mixture of considerations, requiring conscious thought beyond your simple binary comprehension. (right/wrong)
This is proof that you are devoid of creativity, and imagination, and rely soley on others to think for you; others who will most likely end up being proved wrong sometime in the near future as well.
I can at least respect them (right or wrong) because they went out on a limb, and played a hand at life, unlike you who attack, and denegrade others from the safe confines of your limited mind. (probably from your mother's basement as well)
People blog to exchange information, and ideas, not to convince you of anything. No
'proof' (exercise in futility) in the universe, will save you from yourself. Live dumb, and fester!
If you can't provide the proof, then don't assert--and this goes doubly for any supernatural claims such as those you often and so ignorantly make.
You have a pathetic habit of stating that something is true based merely on your assertion. This makes you the loser and a pathetically despicable one at that.
@robertallen1: People are only stating that they 'believe' in something. The only one making the assertion that their statements are factually true is you. You really are not that bright, are you? As Jim Carey so eloquently put it, Looooossssseeeerrr. LOL
Nonsense. They're stating their beliefs as if they were truths, just like pathetic little you.
I like this comment. Very much.
The problem you and most religees have is that you can not prove the "magic man" is no more than a belief or hope, that you dream and/or prey for.
In a funny way, "prey" seems to be the right word.
@goldensilence: Yes, Newton was an absolute genius, as was Copernicus, Galileo, and Einstein, all of which had strong spiritual tendencies. It must just eat away at these people, that some of the greatest minds in scientific history, didn't have this internal conflict regarding science, and faith. It is a strong likelyhood that this is why they were such successful thinkers, that is to leap beyond logic, imagining the possibilities of existance. (open minded)
So what? Are these people known and revered for their science or their religion, with one exception, the latter being a product of their time? Secondly they knew no more about the "spirit," than my neighbor's Dachshund.
Your claim about Einstein's spirituality was debunked long ago and soundly by several posters. So bringing it up again is just another example of your dishonesty and distortion.
You're beneath pathetic and contemptible.
The are known as genius's that’s it full stop. Proves your
comment to be er.... idiotic really. How can you debunk somebody’s
spirituality? You are pathetic. Funny you mention a dog because it instantly
brought to mind that a dog probably has more soul than you. Emotions are just
neurons and chemical reactions the whole universe is nothing but cold
mechanical chance. Such a grim and hopeless outlook. I thought I was a pessimist! It goes against the majority of people’s beliefs and also against a great deal of the sum total of human belief throughout the known history and beyond.
Wrong as usual. They are know as geniuses (note spelling) IN THEIR OWN FIELDS full stop. They know no more about god and the spirit than a dog, a cat or a platypus.
"Emotions are just neurons and chemical reactions the whole universe is nothing but cold mechanical chance. Such a grim and hopeless outlook." So in other words, we need spirituality (religion), not because it's true, but to counteract, the cold, hard facts.
One way or the other, If you can't prove there is such a thing as a spirit, don't claim that there is and don't try to use "the majority of people's beliefs" and "the sum total of human belief throughout the know history and beyond [as if you know anything about the beyond]" as anything approaching proof. Might does not make right, except perhaps for the mo*on, the id*ot and the despicable deceiver.
P.S. There is no such thing as "mechanical chance."
In their own fields? That is just you trying to justify your
dumb belief that people who believe in a God are stupid. Twisting words again
with "so in other words"
followed by a false interpretation of my meaning. Beyond was not meant in
some magical ethereal sense I simply meant the future because in all probability
the belief in God will carry on for a long time (barring extremists like yourself).
You should just admit defeat and retract that silly statement you made
otherwise you look the idiotic one.
So my grammar isn’t the best and I use a wireless keyboard
which leaves out letters sometimes but at least I know that a genius is someone
with very sharp intellectual ability and that the term is not restricted to one
particular field or another.
Your diversion, misrepresentation and general twisting of
any argument plus the fact you will not man up and accept you are wrong on such
an obvious point makes me laugh. You have to accept that intelligent people
(more so than yourself) believe in God.
Bobbie Fischer was a genius in chess--and nothing else. Mozart was a genius in music--and nothing else. Georg Cantor was a genius in mathematics--and nothing else. No one is an all-around genius. So yes, the term is restricted, whether you acknowledge it or not--but you don't know and that's your problem..
Anton Checkov, George Bizet, Maurice Ravel, Jeremy Bentham, Alan Turin, Margaret Sanger, Niels Bohr, Richard Feynman (I can go on), geniuses in their own right, were all acknowledged atheists. This makes trash out of your pathetic and ignorant appeal to authority--but then again, you don't know and that's your problem.
Belief in something for which you have no evidence represents the height of idiocy, no matter how long it may carry on, no matter who carries it on, no matter how many carry it on and your posts constitute no more than a clumsy attempt at defending the inherently inane, the intellectually indefensible.
Indeed, you are the one who is wrong, pathetically, stupidly and abysmally wrong.
Right! List of atheists in science and technology.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_in_science_and_technology
Like theists, they are all over the place. I've often wondered how many there were back in the days when the church held sway? Perhaps there were a few popes, bishops, cardinals and nuns among them, all making robust livings out of organized superstition--maybe the mothers superior weren't so superior after all. Wouldn't it be the height of hilarity to discover that Christ himself was an atheist? Talk about eternal laughter.
@littlebob: Since you will cease to exist after you are gone, (because that is what 'you believe), you won't be around to observe anything, least of all, the joy of laughter!
And neither will you.
Right, reminds me of the "Ho of Calcutta" lol
@Achems_Razor: Birds of a feather flock together???? The fact that some scientists have been categorized on wikipedia, not for their science, but for their lack of spirituality, is hypocritical, especially if you believe that part of their nature is irrelevent to what they have contributed towards society. (in reference to littlebob's pet peave)
Every one of the scientists cited as atheists on Wikipedia have separate articles about their scientific accomplishments. Once again, you've shown yourself to be a liar and a cheat.
P.S. It's a pet peeve, ignoramus.
@littlebob: Bobby Fischer was not a genius because of a single world victory, (one shot wonder) as opposed to the likes of Gary Kasporov, who could only be beaten eventually by a supercomputer, programmed by a team of grandmaster champions, who on their own, didn't stand a chance! The russians have continuously trounced the americans at chess over the last 40 years, which is why they were so happy when Fischer finally won. With that said, no chess player should be bestowed with the term 'genius' unless it is a 11 year old beating a 50 year old grandmaster. Talk about nonsense, and babble!
The fact that Kasparov himself wouldn't agree with a single word you just wrote about Fischer is evidence enough of your authority to speak about Fischer's chess genius. And for your information, the 13 yr old Fischer soundly trounced Donald Byrne, a much older, strong national master at the time (1956), in a game that is still called 'the game of the century,' and is studied to this very day for the chess brilliance unmistakably evident throughout it. Grandmasters even now are known to be effusive in their praise of this effort by the boy. And Fischer's run up to the '72 title, in which he lost precisely ONE game out of 18 played against the likes of grandmasters Petrosian, Larsen, and Taimanov, in a display of chess genius one Garry Kasparov has called "an entirely unprecedented show of superiority in the whole history of the game," is just further proof that you're blowing smoke out of your a$$ on the subject in a feeble attempt to score a point over robertallen. Furthermore, the Soviets had a state-sponsored chess program that no other country had anything even remotely like in terms of resources (or underhanded tournament strategies and tactics), and Fischer went up against that colossal engine all by himself, with nothing like any of these resources, and walloped the piss out of all of them, considering which, if you were honest, would make what he achieved just that much more clear for you, that the man was indeed exactly what he has been called by those who should know.
One way or the other, I'm sure you realize my post was not about Mr. Fischer. You have clearly shown Awful_Truth up for the liar and cheat that he is.
No, I know. It was a general thing. I've just got kind of a soft spot for the tragic Fischer, and felt like this guy needed to be set straight a little bit... Which I still think, really. I don't believe he actually does know the first thing about chess. But I do believe him when he says his goal is to tick you off...
And as you mentioned, his goal says a lot about him and his physical challenge to me about a year ago says even more.
Anyone threatening to do such things should be kicked off...
@Pysmythe: I appreciate your affection for Fischer, and it was not my intention to diminish his accomplishments. ( I just question the label genius) I tried to explain this to you in my last blog.
I too enjoy playing chess, and if you wish, perhaps we can enjoy a friendly game on line.
For the record, if robertallen1 was more respectful, and chose his words more carefully, all of this could have been avoided.
He made the mistake of calling me a coward, (a threatening statement) which had nothing to do with the discussion we were having, so I called his bluff and stated any time, any place. One of the moderators reminded us of the rules, and I apologized, and he didn't. With that said, he hasn't said it since.
Now he is crying you a river, because deep down inside, even he knows that his behaviour is adolescent at best.
Obviously, he is well educated, but his delivery has no redeeming qualities what so ever. I will be more than happy to bury the hatchet with him, but as long as he continues to be-little everyone who don't agree with him, I will be there measure for measure to remind him how it feels, and enjoy doing it.
Now, what I have just stated is completely honest, and direct. (no room for misinterpretation, or spin) Since he will read this, let us see what the nature of his response will be. (or yours for that matter)
If I am to be slapped in the face with the very olive branch I am extending, than it is better for all of us, not to communicate at all, if it can't be in a civilized manner. Either way, now you know the rest of the story! Take care, and best wishes.
If or when Robertallen1 called you a coward, it appears that his evaluation of you may be correct as I've seen you avoid or side step direct questions to you on a number of occasions.
Don't be scared to prove me wrong and to help you on this challenge here are some of the questions you never seem to want to answer.
1. do you believe in one of the religious gods?
2. if so which one ?
Over the edge has asked you these questions today yet your cowardness or rudeness has still not shown any respect to other members of this site.
@jackmax:
1) No!
2) none of the above!
Of course I have answered over the edge, because he is talking normal, and for all your bluster, your time would be best served 'jacking to the max', instead of trying to prop up an individual like littlebob, who obviously needs professional help. Man, you pencilnecks grow like weeds, coming out of the woodwork! Unbelievable!
when I wrote this you had answered other post yet had made no attempt to answer the questions put to you by Over the Edge and then it took over 18 hours to actually answer him.
I think with out both docoman and myself prompting you and agreeing with Robertallen's appraisal of you we would still be waiting for an answer.
You hypocrite. You have made previous statements on name calling and insults that now are complete lies again as robert and doco have pointed out on numerous occasion now.
I would have no fear in calling a coward to your face, however I doubt you would insult or be as rude to me or to anyone for that matter in person. Your insults to me and others lesson my opinion of you and respect is something that all must earned and then not kept without working hard at displaying those qualities that the respect was earned from.
I also noticed that you replied to docoman yet you never answered his question he put to you, another cowardly act shining through. However that is your MO from what I've seen from near on all your discussions I have seen you in on most threads I've seen you post on.
If you had ever tried to have a informative conversation or debate with the other members of TDF a more pleasant and possibly enlightened experience may be achieved.
I have had debates and conversations with Robert and others since being a member of this site, may not agree with all however conversation are still very interesting and informative at times yet always stimulates my mind. May-be the hostilities towards you are instigated by your efforts to provoke rather than converse.
@jackmax: 18 hours? Sometimes I am not online for a week. (obvious who has a life, and who doesn't) Furthermore, if you wish to go months back cherry picking certain blogs (while ignoring others) to prop up your position, that is fine with me as well. Perhaps your clik will give you a hero biscuit for your efforts, but in the real world, all of this amounts to zero. Since I am in charge of myself, I get to decide when I wish to respond, as do all of us. You will just have to learn to live with it!
I can hardly wait until for JackMax' response after he looks up the word pencilneck as I did.
"Since I have a great life outside this virtual world . . . " Well, then what are you doing here among the pencilnecks whom you so despise. Is it masochism or a cry for professional help?
G'day Robert,
Keyboard, Bruce Lee read want to be warriors, would not understand the restraint some people are displaying if their real life achievements were known.
I lose respect for personally insulting instantly and with that as with another now "departed" member of TDF, I'm just showing him the contempt he deserves.
I served my country very proudly and to the best of my ability, and still today I would die for my country. Would he..?
I wish I could feel about my country the way you feel about yours, but considering the way things are, I can't. At least your country is not trying to dictate to the world.
My dad was a WWII veteran who, after enlisting, served in Okinawa, but was never a gung ho patriot or right winger. By the late '60's, early '70's, especially with the Viet Nam war, he ended up hating what this government had come to stand for and assisted me in beating the draft--I don't mind admitting it. It's our government's fault that so many people feel the way they do, especially after the recent "skirmishes" and it has nothing to do with Republican v. Democrats. They're both schmucks.
As a veteran, you might want to read up on the Veterans March on Washington of 1932.
I would have to brush up on it but was that when two veterans where shot by two police officers?
No. There's a full account of it on WIkipedia. Just look up "Veterans March on Washington."
G'day Robert,
I found that wikipedia site interesting, It did state Washington police met with resistance, shots were fired and two
veterans were wounded and later died. Veterans were also shot dead at
other locations during the demonstrations. So for an Aussie off the top of my head not bad all the same....lol
I'm only just starting the process of claiming my entitlements through our veterans affairs as I've recently injured my lower back again.
I originally broke my back in a parachute accident around 20 years ago whilst still serving.
The point being that these people served the U.S. in WWI and look at how they were treated.
Take what you can get.
I here what you're saying and I will fight for all that I'm entitled, but I wont be out to wrought the system as I've heard many doing.
I'm luckier than most i think as my mental strength has helped me cope and understand my role as a soldier and the job requirements at the levels I achieved.
Shameful the difference between the promises pre-enlistment, to what happens later on.
I don't know if this will get deleted but I think that this may give people an insight to my own evidence on why I'm an atheist.
During my service I've seen the worst of acts to man kind one could imagine and all the leaders were say they were doing it in the name of some "magic man" . Be it some jockey that rides a winged horse and cuts the moon in half or The christian version which we've all heard enough.
When they use children to bear arms to soldiers and then blame the soldiers for defending themselves, I think that the so called adults with all the said know and power to change all this horror with so simple yet here's the problem, humble solutions.
"Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices." Voltaire.
I realize that I was the puppet on the string in my profession as a soldier, yet I had the confidence in the Australian political systems to use the defence force. Meaning that we look after our boarders which we are very capable of doing.
The International affair that transpired during my time as a serving member, changed the environment for all allied nations and then I found myself learning about Commonwealth and sovereignty very quickly.
the sooner our great nation I live in becomes a truly independent nation the sooner we as a nation we be seen less of a threat to other wise hostile countries.
I have very strong opinions on religion and the reasons I despise it
Being raised in the country as I did you soon get to see and through selective breeding programs be a small part in proving evolution in way books and documentaries have only confirmed.
It's easier for you to look after your borders , as you are surrounded by oceans on all sides.
Speaking of selective breeding, it has never ceased to amaze me that Darwin was so wrong about genetics, especially as he bred dogs for a hobby.
P.S. What do you mean by a truly independent nation?
At this present time we are still under British rule as our head of state is the queen of England/ the commonwealth.
That is an interesting point about Darwin as I bred greyhounds for racing and looking through the blood lines of greyhounds you could see what strengths and weakness you wanted to enhance or eliminate in the bitches you intend on breeding with.
Speaking of dogs, are there many types of wolves in your country?
P.S. How does a creationist tell the difference between a dog "kind" and a wolf "kind?"
As the creationist do in so many areas of there arguments. they will except macroevolution when it suits them ,but if it doesn't fit within their story or actually shows their stories for the myths that they really are. The thought of mircoevolution to the creationists, in my opinion would be well beyond their allowed capabilities. By allowed I meaning with an open and clearly objective mind without the influence of some pre concieved religious idea or thought'
You might want to look up Encyclopedia of American Loons #329 - Georgia Purdom and then take a gander on You Tube at some of the videos featuring her.
You still haven't told me if there are many varieties of wolf in your country.
As my luntsman had beaten me in my reply i lazied up a little...lol
You asked somewhere I think did jackmax know me. Yeah mate, I've known him for awhile now. I told him about this site and the interesting doco's and comments. I didn't announce we knew each other from the start, to allow him to establish his own reputation and place in the TDF community, as he's done now I believe.
A couple of my older sisters have also watched some things on here here, only one has posted and she's not done so for awhile now, too busy with work.
There's nothing I've read him post about himself that I know about that is untrue, or have any reason to doubt the things I can't know about he's said.
I too envy some of the traveling he's done across and around the NW coast of Aus, I've not been there. That's some of the oldest land on the planet, he's walked and driven over much of it. If you or any of our friends from TDF get to come come over our way, between us we'll take you and show you some of the Aus that the tourists don't get to see. Not WA, :( but some here in Qld. For a bit of the tourist taste if you like, that Australia Zoo (ex- Steve Irwin Zoo) is only 1/2 hour up the road from here. The Barrier Reef starts a few hours drive north of here. Lots of bush not far away, camping and gold prospecting. Jack will get you a bush feed to taste what the original Aussies used to eat. (You can live on it, but it tastes like sh1t-- Crocodile Dundee) Always welcome mate.
You are dreaming if you think Australia can go its own course in international affairs. You are tied to the US now with their pivot to Asia and coercion of China. Out of the frying pan....
Whilst having pride in self is fine, vocalising it to try and legitimize an argument about belief is questionable at best and nauseating at worst.
Belief without anything to back it up is pathetic.
Broken record.....
Like the pot calling the kettle half-baked.
I will never bury the hatchet with a lair, a cheat and a coward such as you.
@robertallen1: bury the hatchet with a lair??? I don't believe it; the perfect littlebob made a spelling mistake, while continuously correcting others for theirs? You must be losing it. LOL
I understand. Robert does not suffer fools gladly, but there is something to be said for that, and I've even had a couple of (mild) run-ins with him myself over the last 2 years. The way I see it, though, is that if we didn't have him here, able and willing to directly confront all kinds of faulty thinking (some of it pretty blatant, some of it not), we'd be dealing with a whole lot more of it, even with the other strong commentators that we've got. So, over time, I've come to appreciate him for that. And oftentimes, too, he isn't the first to hurl an actual insult, though no one ever seems to take note of that. And while I can't presume to speak of psychological motivations for him, you have to remember that we both live in a country where the constant attempted intrusion of religious belief into nearly every aspect of public life, an area that it has no business being in, is something that a lot of us have justly grown entirely fed up with. And seeing that private belief (here, anyway) inevitably attempts to dictate over public policy, it seems wise enough to confront it at its source, and whatever country it comes from. Gatekeepers need to be big, burly, courageous...and sometimes harsh, because a great many religious people are not content to have their beliefs, but you must submit to them, too, in some way. Therein, I suspect, is where the passion stems from, and it's something that I can entirely understand.
You don't happen to have the 'Social Chess' app for iPod4, do you? I play there occasionally, under my Pysmythe moniker, but I'm only a medium-strong amateur, and have gotten about as good at the game as I will ever be capable of, I'm afraid. I actually know a lot more about the history and players of the game than I have skill at the board. But if you're a strong player, and enjoy playing a lot, you should install 'BabasChess' on your computer, if you haven't already. Many of the guys over there are just murderously good, but most of them are blitz players, relying on flashy moves and intimidation. If you can talk one of them into a quiet 1 hour game, your chances will probably improve, depending...
@Pysmythe: I understand as well.
Regarding the game of chess, I, and a couple of friends play several times a week. I would define myself the same as you (medium-strong amateur) I will have to look into the social chess app you are refering to, and get back to you. If I can get it installed, I will be more than happy to have a few games with you. (win or lose, it is all fun) Is this 'Babaschess' you are refering to a computer chess game, or an online game. (sounds interesting)
Regarding the religion. I am curious, are you american, and what area - the south? Is the religious bombardment you speak of really that bad?
I am canadian, and although it exists here as well, it is actually quite minimal regarding it's impact on our society. As I have stated on previous blogs, we tend to concern ourselves more with that which is right in front of us. (don't freeze, don't drown)
For this reason, I am likely far more accepting of other people's views regarding religion. I know that in eastern Canada, it is far more influential, not so much today, but especially up until the 1960's had strong overtones, and implications for the people who were there at that time.
Believe it or not, I do understand why people such as robertallen1 have such strong convictions on the topic. However, as a canadian, I am less receptive to over the top militant attitudes. I tend to think that U.S foreign policy, and firearms rights on U.S soil are just as dangerous as religion, and out of control. (yes, we own firearms as well) The gorilla in the room has gotten so powerful, that countries as a whole are evaporating to corporate control, by the elite, and the only solution may lie in education itself. I can gaurantee you that even in Canada, those who are in charge don't want people too intelligent either.
Last, but not least, check out Robertallen1's responses to my last blog to you, and you will see that he has no desire to get along, and appears to be thriving on hate, and anger. Ultimately, this behaviour is self defeating, (and destructive) and prevents his intelligence from rising to the top. I do agree that he has a lot to offer, but until he overcomes this self imposed limitation, our situation will be what it will be. Either way, I am fine with it, because it has no bearing on how I live my life. (there is some entertaiment value in it) Thanks for your thoughtful response Pysmythe, and take care!
You're an insult to the other Canadians who post on this site.
Maybe he should spend time correcting his own faulty thinking before crusading (pun intended) against others.
@Psmythe: Let me guess, you are american? Touched a nerve, did I? LOL This is what I love about blogging, is how easily I can setoff the wannabees. For the record, there are no points, and I win every time I get littlebob to lose his mind, and spout his usual comments. (liar, cheat, m*ron, id*ot) ergo, small minds speak ill of others, average minds talk events, but great minds speak of ideas, that which is impossible for those devoid of spirit, creativity, and imagination.
P.S: chess is a game of limited possibilities, and there is nothing genius about it!
I really couldn't care less about the games you might be playing here, but I did think you might actually be in need of a little schooling on Fischer's achievements. But, hey, if you're basically admitting to outright lying in an attempt to set people off, I have to tell you that speaks volumes about your integrity to more than just myself or robertallen on these forums. I'm sure others will be glad to know that about you. What can I say? Knock yourself out.
You might be interested to know that this is the guy who about a year ago threatened me with fisticuffs.
@Psmythe: where did I lie about anything? how many world championships did Bobby Fischer win? One, that is it. This was not to denounce Fischer's accomplishment, only question the validity of calling him a 'genius'. Sorry, but he does not fall into the same category as Newton, Einstein, Tesla, Mozart, etc.
Secondly, all I have done is give littlebob a taste of his own medicine, and you don't like it. (dish it out, but can't take it?) You should be thanking me, because if he ever figures it out, he will become a better person because of it. (I can hope, can't I)
If and when you realize that 'value' comes in many forms, (athiest, theist, agnostic, pantheist, etc) than you will quit choosing sides based only upon your spiritual persuasion, (or lack thereof) and quit the childish namecalling games that littlebob plays 24/7, and instead learn to exchange ideas, without calling people down who happen to think differently than you.
The choice is yours, and if you wish to continue on this path, I will enjoy doing unto others as they would do unto me, instead of getting upset, and sulking with words that speak lots, but say nothing.
So now you feel you should be thanked. For what, lying, cheating, misrepresenting and threatening? You're a fine one to talk about making someone a better person.
As there is no limit to the number of rounds in a chess game, there is no limit to the possibilities--another ignorant statement from someone spouting clichés in place of intelligence as blithely as he spouts lies in place of facts. Psmythe has your number.
You lose everytime you post.
Where did I mention a single world victory against Kasporov? What about the rest of the people I cited?
Once again, you're a liar and a cheat.
@littlebob: How do you know that Fischer, Mozart, and Cantor were not intelligent, or genius in other areas? Good thing you are not the standard by which anything important is judged! (correction - you could be regarding grade school childish name calling) Talk about locked in a feedback loop, repeatedly walking face first into a wall like Yul Brynner in West world! You got to love it.
By having read about them in detail which is obviously more than you've ever done.
You certainly set the standard by which ignorance, lying and deception can be judged.
You mention "grade school childish name calling". What is your 'littlebob' term you've been using all about then? You hypocrite.
By your own standards (not to mention other's) you're also small minded, as you admit you're here to play games to stir up people. As has already been pointed out, you don't answer simple questions, which also makes you a cowardly, foolish troll.
As has also been stated, you've been correctly pegged by multiple posters on here now. A foolish, small minded hypocrite coward, by your own actions and admissions. Your 'truth' is still awful. Grow a set and answer over the edge's post at the top to you. I'm betting you're too scared to be honest with him as he was with you.
@docoman: I had no problem answering what over the edge requested. (especially since he is respectful, and forthright) However, that privileage is reserved for those who know how to conduct themselves accordingly. Since littlebob is incapable of this simple approach, he is treated accordingly, as are you Dodoman. Live dumb, and fester!
You're really full of yourself, aren't you? You haven't fooled anyone.
P.S. The word is privilege, but I'll let it go as a typo.
Some facts for you to consider and compare to some of your claims.
So you're saying you didn't answer because I wasn't what you consider 'respectful and forthright' enough.
Here is a quote from you in an earlier post to me, when I said you haven't replied to our first exchange;
"The awful truth is you suffer from bi-polar thinking, (A or Z, nothing in between) This is precisely why I never responded to your 'critical thinking' assertion, because you have nothing original to offer.( devoid of spirit, imagination, and creativity) Just critical, no thinking!"
Contradicting yourself. One or both must be untrue. Was it too rude for you, or not enough spirit for you?
Lets examine our first exchange, and see what was said, and if your claims are accurate or not.
I explained to you why some of your probability calculations on the possibility of alien life is flawed, which included the statement;
"Then you have to consider one key variable is not understood, Abiogenesis."
I ended that post with;
"Are you sure you're not biased by your attachment to Star Trek?
You could sign off 100% of the time with 'live long and prosper', you'd still not be Vulcan with green blood." That's as rude as I got.
Your reply to that was;
"If you don't agree with my assertion, that is fine. I don't agree with your assertion that you have the answer to how life began. (oh well) Also, If you are bothered by a sociable meaningful farewell like, live long and prosper, how about live and die in ignorance! (now do you feel all warm and fuzzy inside?) You all really are one angry lot of self deluded know it alls, aren't you? No need to answer. It is a rhetorical question."
My response to that was uncharacteristically quite polite, even though you didn't deserve it by then IMO, and yours apparently. I commented that as someone else had already mentioned, you seem to have some reading comprehension problems (over your false claim on my supposed knowledge of Abiogenesis), and I said "your truth is Awful".
It's pretty clear what has gone on is actually the reverse of what you've been claiming. You were rude, and wrong, then tried to ignore and then play the victim card when it's again pointed out.
A couple more quotes from you here on TDF, relating to your claim that you're only rude to those that are to you first.
This is part of a post to a woman who didn't even address you let alone be rude to you first;
"If you can't understand the logic I have just expressed to you, then the alternative is to go back to your happy place, spouting rhetoric, withhout any critical thinking."
Another of your posts contained;
"Since I am capable of having this communication respectfully with
everyone, (except apparently you and with certanty, littlebob)..."
You recently had a go at robert for correcting spelling, yet you posted this to someone with a different opinion that hadn't talked to you;
"Wow, there are still people that don't believe in the moon landing!?! Study a lot, especially how to spell. (believe, not beleave)"
If you're going to bag people for their behaviour, judge yourself by the same standards, and be honest with yourself.
What can you expect from someone who doesn't have a leg to stand on except his faith?
I've been reading most of the posts he's done on here. Quite the opinion of himself he has, obviously. It seems he believes that the whole universe is 'alive' and connected (Spinoza's god he often calls it), and that this is the the same/similar conclusion that Einstein came to. Which he seems to believe is some grand personal epiphany, that's beyond most people's ability to comprehend, which allows a greater knowledge of all things. That's why he comes out with the 'A to Z and bipolar thinking' line he so often accuses most that don't agree with him of having.
Another quote from a post of his 7 months ago;
"It is clear that Einstein did not believe in traditional religions, (all knowing, judgmental, personal god – Spinoza’s god) but continuously alluded to a 'spirit' behind nature, that humanity was intellectually 'impotent' to understand, nor explain. For this reason, calling him an atheist is completely wrong. If people wish to debate whether he was agnostic (I don't know) or spiritual, (belief in higher forms of life) is for people to decide for themselves. (Einstein is not here to speak for himself )."
Now it seems he's conveniently forgotten all about the agnostic or 'traditional religions' part of that when trying to appeal to Einsteins supposed authority on 'god'. And he doesn't know as much about the variance within some of those descriptions, i.e agnostic.
I believe his arrogance blinds him to the fact that he's got the bipolar thinking on this topic. I've seen him laugh at others for believing in string theory, yet he incorporated it's math in his own, 11 dimensional version of the universe/beliefs.
Of what earthly importance is Einstein's theology? His accomplishments are all that matter. However, those of Awful Truth's mentality believe that if they can demonstrate by hook or crook that a famous person, especially in the sciences, was a theist or at least had theistic leanings, somehow they've strengthened the argument for theism (that is, their own brand of theism).
The lies and distortions barfed up from Awful Truth's keyboard (and you and others have exposed many of them) render him particularly despicable. In the case of Einstein, notice how blithely he omitted the letter of 1954, "I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it," which, as it was written two years before his death, trumps everything before it. Yet he claims himself to be an expert on this individual.
And yet he clamors for respect. "Quite the opinion of himself he has" hits the nail squarely on the head.
Thank you, I don't recall having read that before. I find the whole 'Einstein (or anyone for that matter) appeal to authority' on things that were not their speciality. An obviously stupid and flawed argument. I don't know why they keep trying with it, Awful has been going on about it for months. Who gives a hoot what Einstein believed about god either way (unless for historic interest), or fashion, or his preferred dessert. His achievements were in physics, not his physique, nor his faith.
As I said, I spent quite a while going back reading almost all of Awful's posts. There are quite a few contradictions throughout. A number of times during the read I was almost ready to agree with him, then he'd make some claim or assertion that is wrong and he'd lose me. :(
It sometimes looks like he is trying hard with google to look more knowledgeable on some topics then he actually is. I think he knows he's not as smart as he has tried to make out, (that or his ego is malignant), if not by his tone from the start to many people, (and not just 'responding' as he claims) but also absurd things like telling a moderator what they can and can't say to who, and when. He's a nutter IMO, kind of reminds me of that, hmm, was it aptw or some such fool (apologies if that name is not the correct one aptw, it entered my head for some reason)
He's been shown to be incorrect a number of times about a number of things now, he's like jailbird Kelly was, not worth talking to after a few posts, it's just feeding a foolish troll on a one tracked, 'holier than thou', fallacy toting roam. I also see he started at disqus at other sites before coming here to TDF. He's being fed better here. He also warned Jack1952 about the mod's ect, and said he had 'experience'.
Interesting comments from him though. :)
@docoman: If you spent as much effort in exchanging ideas as you do trying to discredit others, think of what you could accomplish!
I just wanted you to know that I wrote you a hell of a long reply (3 or 4 hundred words long) the other night, in answer to your last post to me, and Disqus just vanished it forever into some black hole as soon as I clicked post. And that happened again today, too, when I was responding to someone else a few hours ago. I had to rewrite the entire damned (equally long) thing... I'll tell you, this new system of theirs really stinks!
FWIW- I posted one with a link last night. I wanted to leave the link out so that it wouldn't go to moderation, but I had some statistics in it and felt it was proper. I still have not seen it.
It was my best post EVER! ;-)
Mine didn't go into moderation, didn't even have any swear words or links in them at all, or I would've understood. They just plum up and vanished completely. All I saw were those three little black dots flashing across the screen for about 15 full minutes before I finally just gave up and hit reload.
sorry about that. i looked for it in the hiding spots i know of but couldn't find it, on a related note my first response to your earlier post on this subject has gone missing
Thanks, I appreciate your looking into it.
@Pysmythe: I appreciate your efforts, and thanks for the heads up. I too have had this happen to me, and the only thing I can suggest is just prior to sending a blog, I now right click and copy just before I click post. This has saved me from the grief that you have just expressed.
I still wish to try to setup the chess app you informed me about, but I have been quite distracted as of late looking after my father who is elderly, and requires a lot of attention. I will talk with you again soon. Take care,and best wishes!
Thanks, that's a good idea, and I'll remember it the next time I write one of those long ones.
The Social Chess app is only for iPods, iPhones, and iPads, it's not cross-platform, but if you've got any of those you shouldn't have any problems with it. I like it better than BabasChess, because the interface is a lot more intuitive and the play is, in fact, more social. Babas is more for hardliners, and the interface took me a couple of hours to get a good grip on. Not only that, but folks over there are pretty distant. Hardly ever will you get any kind of interaction with them at all, not even a "good game," or anything of the sort. However, you can spectate there, too, and sometimes it's fun to watch a couple of 1900 to 2200 Elo-rated players play a 5 minute blitz game, which can get pretty bloody.
I had a more detailed response in the lost post about the religious thing, but I'm gonna have to shorten this one up some. Yes, I was born and raised in the South, but left it 19 years ago, living an hour west of NYC ever since. The problem here is nationwide, though, not just down South (where, granted, it's usually worse) because the Christian Right pretty much outright co-opted the Republican Party back around '80, with the advent of Saint Ronnie. For me, that marks the start of this country's decline in many respects, not only as regards the religious aspect. But ever since then, because of the grip they've continued to have on powerful conservatives, we've seen things like their push to roll back women's rights, promote creationism as legitimate science in the schools, denial of global warming, a much too ready, "patriotic" (as in, basically war-mongering) acceptance of this country's disastrous wars and foreign-policy decisions, and on and on. You've seen your share of it all up your way, I'm sure... Troglodytes like Palin, Bachmann, the whole FuxNews clown circus... although I've heard FuxNews isn't permitted in Canada, which is a very, very good thing. I've lived in the Northeast now for quite a while, and can attest to how widespread these kinds of attitudes are, how ready so many are to scarf down all the (hypocritical, self-serving, among other things) bullsh-t without a second thought. Then again, the Democratic Party lately is, in essence, simply Republican Light, and I'm pretty pissed about that, to put it very mildly. The genuine Progressive Left in this country needs to get more organized, more insistent, especially as our numbers are growing, and stop continuing to think that it has any real voice left in the Democratic Party... and with that I guess I'd probably better stop, although there is obviously a helluva lot more that could be said.
ttyl
edit- I should've pointed out that BabasChess is free software you can download for your PC.
@Pysmythe: Just thought you should know that, sadly, the Canadian broadcasting system (CBC) is under attack from our own wingnut prime minister, Stephen Harper, and has signed on to have FOX news become one of the standard broadcasts for Canadians. Although he is mired is his own scandals right now, it won't make a difference, because he was caught bribing someone on audio for 100,000 dollars prior to becoming the prime minister, and hard line conservatives still voted him in.
His progressive conservatives were found guilty for diverting funds from one constituency to another during the election, and he prorogued (shut down) the house of commons when his minority government was going to be brought down during a non confidence vote.
In reality, we have the same problem you do, the illusion of democracy. In my opinion, you have a 1 party system with 2 factions, backed by the same corporate involvment. In Canada, we have a multiple party system, yet even though the elections canada act (section 550) states that no candidate can promise anything in writing prior to an election, so they can vote freely in the house of commons, the second they don't follow the party line, they are dismissed by the political party.
In Canada, they avoid the appearance of collusion by changes the laws for corporate advantage, and get greased after they leave office. (Michael Wilson conservative energy minister become CEO of Amico, Bernard Lord liberal telecommunications minister became CEO of Tellus. - I am sure you get the point)
Sadly, both our country's are part of a plutocracy, that will use the corporate controlled media, religion, race, or anything else they can think of to divide, and distract the general public from what is really going on. It is too bad, because I truly believe that we were born in the best countries, at the best time in history, and they are slowing destroying everything that the people before us fought for, so that their children would have better lives.
Since we both seem to have a good handle on our respective political quagmires, I will be happy to hear any insight you have in the future regarding your political thoughts. Your sanity is a breath of fresh air. Take care Pysmythe!
I have and do exchange ideas and information here on TDF, with numerous people on multiple topics. I've learned many new things since coming here. Tried to with you initially, as that post above shows. If you stopped talking sh1t and got off your imagined, 'Einstein induced' intellectual high-horse you might be able to practice what you preach, and we can all shut up with the BS and get back to learning something. How about we try that hey?
You don't have to justify yourself to Awful Truth or anyone else.
@docoman: I am in complete agreement. Let us wipe the slate clean docoman, and start fresh. I too have learned much from the discussions that take place on TDF. Yes, sometimes we are not going to agree, and it is okay to agree to disagree. In reality, we all learn from one another, and we all have our own personal biases, (right and wrong) that must reflected upon. In the final analysis, none of us can grow without the input from those around us. Take care, and best wishes!
And if you spent your time trying to obtain a real education, think how much you could accomplish.
@goldensilence: You know what makes me laugh? Is that people like littlebob don't understand that what makes any individual proficient in anything, is the sum total of the entire person as a whole, not just the parts that we wish to acknowledge.
Here is a paraphrase from Bruce Lee. (let me know what you think)
"Life is a void, that lies between this, and that. It is an all encompassing void, being neither for, nor against. Those who embrace the void, will have a love for all things!"
( even littlebob, because if you didn't feel the sting of his evil, you would never develope the tools to combat it!) Since he sees no value in philosophy, it is beyond his comprehension.
Perhaps the athiest fears death more than the religious, because he detests life, and is scared he may actually have to come back, or face the consequences of the choices he has made in this one. (no need for judgment)
You know what makes me laugh? Liars and cheats like you who try to support their deception and ignorance through appeals to authority
Talk about "birds of a feather", you and 'goldensilence' rotflol!
Reminds me of a scene in Waking Life by Richard Linklater (such a thought provoking film) here is an excerpt,
**I feel like my transport should be an extension of my personality. And this? This is like my little window to the world and every minute, it's a different show. Now, I may not understand it. I may not even necessarily agree with it. But I'll tell you what, I accept it and just sort of glide along. You want to keep things on an even keel I guess is what I'm saying. You want to go with the flow. The sea refuses no river. The idea is to remain in a state of constant departure while always arriving. Saves on introductions and good-byes. The ride does not require an explanation. Just occupants. That's where you guys come in.**
The same underlying message I think. Training the mind or meditation is the silencing of the self, the only thing that is “for or against”. Once this inferior mind is silenced profound truths can be realised giving mind, body and spirit empowerment. It is a theme that is inherent in all religions too if one looks closely.
The sheer effort required to silence the mind and have the determination and discipline to carry out exercises day in day out is also an indication to me personally of a truth because as we all know one gets nothing without a great deal of hard work.
It could possibly be that the hardcore atheist knows perfectly well how hard it would be to follow the teaching of religion or spirituality so takes the easy option of disbelieving simply because it cannot be proved.
In fact I do believe this is why certain religions have strong themes of fear/guilt because a good deal of us including myself need that initial deep seated impulse to start action towards improvement.
That brings to mind another quote from the same film I mentioned earlier….
**the gap between, say, Plato or Nietzsche and the average human is greater than the gap between that chimpanzee and the average human. The realm of the real spirit, the true artist, the saint, the philosopher, is rarely achieved.
Why so few?
Why is world history and evolution not stories of progress but rather this endless and futile addition of zeroes?
No greater values have developed. Hell, the Greeks years ago were just as advanced as we are. So what are these barriers that keep people from reaching anywhere near their real potential?
The answer to that can be found in another question, and that's this: Which is the most universal human characteristic--fear or laziness?**
Says absolutely nothing.
What? care to elaborate?
I can't comment on nothing.
Really.... then I bet you are fun around the dinner table.
@goldensilence: Good words goldensilence. I am a graduate of film school, and yet I don't think I have ever seen the film 'Waking Life'. (you got my curiosity up now, so I will have to check it out) I have at least 1000 movies, and documentaries in my collection, and although they cover the spectrum, I am by far a science fiction fan, owning basically every good sc-fi movie that was ever made.
I also love philosphy, and although not everyone can appreciate it's value, I feel it is a staple that should be included even in high school education, with emphasis on logic, and critical thinking. (Socrates)
To answer your question, I would have to say that laziness/sloth along with greed are the universal human characteristics, with 'fear' being the universal characterisitc of all life itself. (survival based) Of course, this is just my opinion, but it would seem to me that necessity truly is the mother of invention. Every time humanity steps forward (technology for example) we lose something in the process, forgetting what got us there to begin with. For this reason, I 'fear' for the youth, and the rising obesity/cancer rates that are inflicting them. We are meant to be moving, and this is biggest factor (in my opinion) regarding the health of all. This would explalin why I believe that sloth will be the affliction of the future.
P.S: If you haven't seen it, check out the animated movie Wall-E. It is a hilarious satire on the future of humanity. Talk to you soon. Take care, and best wishes!
"We are meant to be moving . . . " How do you know this?
“We are made for action and activity is the sovereign remedy for all physical ills”
Frederick the Great
Fear is playing a huge role n today’s society enabling evil minded people to snatch away freedoms that have been fought for over hundreds of years. Unless people stop being lazy enough to be spoon-fed daily news via the brainwashing set in the corner of the room then I fear cancer and obesity will be taking backstage to something more terrible.
PS
Do check out the film I mentioned earlier, I am sure you will appreciate it even more due to your background and the peculiar way it was
filmed.
I agree fully. It must cause a bit of dissonance, of course they will not accept this.
You respect them for their science not for their moronic religion beliefs.
@goldensilence: No they won't, but that is okay. Since this reasoning is beyond their comprehension, sadly, all we can do is pity them, for the abilities they lack. This high road will always trump their judgmental attitudes.
That's like the pot calling the kettle half-baked. You're so consistently pathetic.
No, I did not state "all believers are i*iootic m*rons?" You have me mixed up with someone else kid. Do you know what you are doing?
@Achems_Razor: Since Robertallen1 continuously calls all believers i*diotic m*rons, I am guessing his response was intended for him!
Disqus like your reasoning is faulty or broken. I said somewhere in this mess that the comment was not intended for you.
@Achems_Razor: M theory stands for magic/ or mystery, coined by the man who created it , Ed Witton. (check his own admission - the elegant universe) But, nice try though!
When Edward Witten named M-theory, he did not specify what the M stood for—perhaps because the nascent theory was not fully defined. Some, including Sheldon Glashow, speculate that Witten chose the letter because it resembles an inverted W. According to Witten, "M CAN STAND VARIOUSLY FOR 'magic', 'mystery', or 'matrix', according to one's taste." "The Theory Formerly Known as String." Scientific American, February 1998 (emphasis added)
Get your facts straight.
@robertallen1: Yes, magic, mystery, and yes matrix, which is what I basically said to Achems_Razor. Since we are both quoting Ed Witten, and he is quoting Michio Kaku,(who didn't create the theory, or it's math), should not your fact correction be sent to Achems_Razor who believes the "M" stands for membrane theory? Can anyone say nimrod! LOL
No, that is not what you basically stated.
No, M stands for membrane theory, check the link I have just given you with Michio Kaku.
Please see my last post. I get a different story.
@over the edge: A very direct honest answer, no distraction, straight to the point. whether one agrees, or disagrees, there is absolutely no fault in this response that I can see!
Moderators:
What's the matter with this thing? The lines come out funny and after a while, you can't add any more text?
If you take complete responsibility for yourself and your actions you see there is no
need for gods. But to do this means embracing the fact that you are ultimately alone in the world and that terrifies most people.
It takes courage to see the optimism in a godless world. Courage to wipe clean the slate of indoctrination (if one so did come into this world victimized from it) and courage to see how truly special we are to only get a small timeframe to view reality before we retire again into the earth. Crashing waves of life, cresting and falling, each one unique, each one precious, before and after it's demise.
Most of the private 320 million (1 for every citizen) anti-aircraft cannons, 20 mm sniper rifles, 7.62 & 5.56 mm military assault rifles, grenade launchers, machine guns, gattling guns, shot guns, sub-machine guns, semi-automatic and revolver hand guns, along with many millions more of hunting bows and bowie knives are owned by:
God Fearing, 'Holy Jesus' Christians, backed up by a $340 billion per annum American Arms Industry Congress lobby, which spends more on advertising than America spends on public health care. There's a joke in there some where...?
Now that's what I call a Civilised, slaughter house, waiting to happen...
Well Jesus 'H' Christ, all I can say to that is, "Praise the Lord and pass the God Damned, f--king ammunition. Where's my next vulnerable primary school..."
@Edward Campbell: Since the first commandment is 'thou shall not murder', it is fair to say that Christianity is not to blame, but the evil of greed, and the brainwashing of patriotism that is the root cause of all that we see wrong around us. With that said, your blog was hilarious.
Allow me to be presumptious, and state that I think the joke you were implying, is taking a man from 2000 years ago, who drove the money changers from the temple, (how dare you turn my fathers house into a shop) a man they crucified a week later, and now you have millions who have adopted them as their own like he was some gun toting capitalist! (yes, the hipocracy is quite funny, as long as you are not on the receiving end of it)
It's very simple. Religion was government from way before Jesus' time. The aristocrats had the gold ("God's Money") so they made the rules. Control the money supply, you control it all.
The same thing is happening today. People must open their eyes to this very dangerous control. Every single country is entitled to print their own currency without being in debt to anyone. America has tried to get rid of bank controlled money supply time and time again (Andrew Jackson succeeded, Lincoln succeeded, Garfield tried but was assassinated before he was able to). You must connect these very important dots.
You must always follow the gold or money to find the real truths of these specific religions. Religion and spirituality have become so disconnected from one another in most major religions. The divine truth will present itself once you not only look at the facts surrounding you, but also you must look inward.
Everything you need is in your soul - it was embedded from you since the beginning. Only the media, churches, schools, and even family have disconnected you from true self-awareness. Just simply, take the initiative to find answers for yourself. Once you've started that process it will become much easier to share and collaborate. This is love and that's the only way to "beat" these very powerful organizations that only want to instill fear.
Once you are free from fear then you are free to contribute to the change that NEEDS to occur in OUR world.
"Everything you need is in your soul - it was embedded from you since the beginning. Only the media, churches, schools, and even family have disconnected you from true self-awareness. Just simply, take the initiative to find answers for yourself. Once you've started that process it will become much easier to share and collaborate. This is love and that's the only way to 'beat' these very powerful organizations that only want to instill fear." You must first establish through hard evidence and hard evidence only that there is such a thing as the soul. If you can't do that, then what you have keyboarded is merely idiotic. .
As a body of work this compalation is as valuble as it is no doubt uncomfortable for those of a religious bent. Indeed it is the very discomfort that is generated by showing the significant flaws and weaknesses inherent in religion that makes it valuble.
My paragraph was not necessarly directed towards the incrdulous or those fanatically opposed to verious possibilities.But for those who may be teetering on the brink of indecision.Its not an easy road to traverse.
Those who are waiting for science to drop a brick of God into their laps are in for the duration.And thats why those who are waiting this kind of fast food of proof will never have it.For real proof can only come from
interest,pursuit,discipline,repeated effort and a sincere desire for success.Not for the lazy,lame,critical, angry, impatient pessimist.
And your point is?
Page8@I believe in God.But not a God that knows nothing,sees nothing and hears nothing.You stay fat,dumb and happy because your armies(like most religions) are out raping and robbing the world.Then you have the audacity to tell us that you follow the teachings of Christ.What a pant load,wake up.
What you believe is of no consequence. It's what you can prove.
I'm an atheist and i think most of this is quite stupid. In fact, I don't think a real atheist would contribute to that. That being said, has anyone ever heard of critical thinking (based on evidence) and a conscience (yeah that little voice in your head)? Well, surely some of you have. I am of the school that says that everything must be questionned, regardless of where it's coming from. If it doesn't agree with my basic values and beliefs, I will reject it. The God concept is one of them. I can observe nature and understand the laws of physics. That's good enough for me. The energy contained in the universe does not have this kind of religious notion attached to it, it just behave according to the natural laws such as electro-magnetic and quantum physics. There is no good or evil, just what is. If you need religions to tell you anything worthy of concern, you are pretty much a lost cause and doomed to live in guilt and shame. In fact, the only standards of moral that are valid are my own. Love is a frequency and so is fear. It's up to you to pick which one you want to live by.
Agreed, with just one point of difference. Good and evil are relative terms, not just what is.
Makes me think.. Interesting
Fun and refreshing.
Fun and refreshing.
best thing i ever saw in my life!
It's too bad you spent so much time trying to make other people look stupid.
if you know the teachings of jesus yet you call the people who believe in them stupid do you know that you are the stupid one? and if you dont know his teachings yet you scoff at the people who believe them and call them stupid dont you know its you that are stupid? because there are no stupid teachings of christ.. they are all masterful. even and sometimes more so the lesser known secret gnostic teachings of christ are so rich in wisdom that these so called intellectuals cant understand them.. its because they are one sided. they only think with one hemisphere of their brain it seems.. is it that they lack the ability to think abstractly? they get so tripped up by the details that they miss the core message. i will say my opinion personally that i can easily see most christians have no idea what the historic contexts are and a lot of them are easily misled by the bad preachers.. but its because they decide to let someone else tell them what to believe instead of doing their own research. i wont go on any further but i will say that every atheist i know is bitter, pompous, and in fact stupid. to hell with you people.
And to hell with a wilful ignoramus such as you.
i know you are but what am i ...
looks like mainly atheists posted comments here. You know a lot of atheists try to make the point that faith means your dumb and illogical and that somehow a believer in God hates science and logical thinking. Its unfortunate that atheists have such a distorted view of religion, in fact that distortion is what causes you to be atheist. Pretty much all atheists hang on to their attacks against people who believe by calling them stupid but if you take a look at your comments and speech, why would anyone take you seriously when your attitude is so full of hatred and disgust over something you don't understand. Religion is not a problem, bad people who claim to be religious is what the problem is. Trying to ask God to answer all of the worlds problems is naive as the solution is already there, if the world followed the teachings, peace, unity and love than the problems wouldn't exist, but since people continue to deny these simple teachings the world suffers and than those with little understanding question why this is all happening and where is God, really he has been waiting for the people to listen to Him but they never do and so they blame their problems on Him. This attitude is what caused Jesus to be crucified, and until the world ends this attitude will never change therefore your pain and suffering will never cease.
@page8:
Jesu$ jumping Chr1st! lol, are you for real?
How old are you?? only children can be that naive!
"only children can be that nieve!" (naive I think Robert would say ;)
I don't know mate, have you been near a church lately?
Find a Ray Comfort supporter, I think you'll find one. :)
"..if the world followed the teachings, peace, unity and love than the problems wouldn't exist, but since people continue to deny these simple teachings the world suffers.."
Hmm, but what about your god's plan then? IF everyone did as you suggest and followed 'the teachings, peace, unity and love' what would happen to the prophecies, the 2nd Coming?
Oh O, logic problem. :
If everything is going according to His will then your statement is impossible. IF your statement was possible, then everything isn't going according to His will and plan (as we could suddenly decide to change it), the prophecies ect are out the window, and your whole story (god ect) is impossible.
The funny thing is after 2k years, all the editing and translations and study, with supposedly nothing being impossible for your deity, and you Christians STILL can't get your fairy tale to work.
I think you misunderstood in the way I was talking. Yes, the teachings
of Christ defeat all evil and eliminate all suffering but God's plan of
salvation was carried out by Jesus death and resurrection because the
world could never save itself. God knew that the world couldn't follow
these teachings and it never will. So yes, everything is going
accordingly because we know that the suffering of the world will not
end, Jesus died to save us because we can't end our own suffering, i was
only speaking figuratively in the sense that if we could follow them
through the world than suffering would go, illustrating to you that the
teachings of Christ are the only way. Those who belong to God are no
longer part of the world, the world will burn in its own sin, but Jesus
has lifted His children up so as not to be burned with it. His children
are everyone, including you and all those who hate Him. It is not my
job to convince you, only to tell you the truth. You belong to God too,
the difference between you and me is that you haven't yet accepted His
invitation. The bad must grow with the good for the good were once bad
but were now made innocent in Jesus name. Nobody is forcing you to be
part of the family you were created to be for, but know that every
decision you make in this life has consequences, and an unrepentant
heart is truly suffering.
Please read the comment policy against preaching and proselytizing on this thread. You don't know any more about god and Jesus than anyone else, yet you claim you do. This makes you profoundly contemptible.
Your fairytale about your magic man may have a place in your world. Your magic man is just a story, just like the easter bunny and santa claus. At some stage everybody must understand difference between fact and fiction. And your magic man is fiction
Ugh! is all I can say!
And, Oh yes, no preaching! and no veiled threats please!
Thank you for your false threats and promises. Sorry, but I've heard that one before. It was only mildly amusing the first time, it's pretty insulting by about the 1000 th.
As a believer it's your job to tell me the 'truth'. As a still rational thinking person, I guess it's my job to answer those assertions with, 'you are brainwashed by an obviously flawed bunch of lies. Wake up to yourself, you're speaking rubbish.'
For example, you said;
"Those who belong to God are no longer part of the world, the world will burn in its own sin, but Jesus
has lifted His children up so as not to be burned with it."
What a load, and that's being kind.
Although you may be living in an induced delusion, like it or not you are still a part of this world.
Your kind should be more wary about wishing/bringing 'fire and brimstone' on the world, because unlike your beliefs, your kind burns too.
The good news is, finally people are starting to wake up, we're beginning to throw off the yoke that your beliefs are and have been to our species.
Education is giving people the tools to not need your fairy tale, your incorrect story is being seen for the lies it is. (not to mention past and present acts of hypocrisy by it's command)
The truth will set you free...from religion, with all it's false assertions, false promises, threats and demands.
If what you write is true, you bring bad news to the Vatican, not to mention every house of worship in the world, but you bring good news to those who value intelligence and knowledge over superstition and wilful ignorance.
I think one could argue we've come a long way in the last few hundred years regarding breaking religion's grip on us. I think a decent education is the key, but that standard seems to be going backwards just recently. I hope that's only temporary. Religion is struggling though, it's becoming harder for them to openly maintain their lies, as the Catholic Church is currently being shown around the world.
Edit-I think it will probably take centuries for us to completely loose our current versions. Hopefully eventually it will increasingly become only the 'fringe' elements that believe, and the majority will be educated and sensible enough to value intelligence and knowledge over willful ignorance. Abraham's God will eventually go the same way as the Egyptian, Greek, Roman, and all the other versions that are now mostly just memories, historical footnotes. I hope this time we replace religion with logic and reason.
I only hope you're right. Have you watched any of the debates between Dr. Krauss and creationists?
Yes, I have mate. I quite like him. I've watched a few of those type of debates and lectures since becoming a member of TDF. (on here and elsewhere).
The more I see of Dawkins, the more I admire him. Especially his logical and cool demeanor towards his opponents, he's always a gentleman. I've grown to be a fan of his.
I like Krauss, everything I've seen him in he knows what he's talking about. I've not seen a lot of him, but I instantly liked him.
My favorite speaker on these debates is/was Chris Hitchens. I like listening to him speak. I watched one the other day I enjoyed between the Hitchens brothers.
I also have seen the Hitchens brothers debate, and I would give the older bother the points on that occasion. I have no doubt that the younger is quite sincere in his beliefs however when confronted with the truth about the ''magic man'' or evolution, he appeared out of his deapth, as most ''magic man'' believers do in my opinion.
It was weird watching them, one an American, one British. Both are intelligent men.
I thought it was interesting how they split it into two sections, one on the war in Iraq, the other religion. I thought Chris had the more difficult side to argue 1st half, Peter the 2nd.
I'd agree, Chris won the points, but Peter is no mental slouch either. I bet those two had some good fights. They both knew each others buttons to press. :)
Your quite right Peter is no slouch, I thought that he lacked the passion his elder showed on both topic..
Chris brought up some extremely valid points on the Iraq conflict, that seemed to give another view most people
probably had not thought about in a collective manner.
Chris is the better speaker. He brought up some points on Iraq I'd not considered before, and as you say probably many other people either. Peter was always going to be hard pressed to match Chris' passion on religion. Most people are, and those that do match his passion usually can't match his logic. :)
Have you seen Prof. Krauss that robertallen1 mentioned earlier? He's a theoretical physicist and cosmologist. I've seen some of him debating, he knows his stuff and is to the point. He's a smart one, which as Jim Jefferies says, "are like cancer to religion" :)
I have seen a little of Prof Krauss, however I will endevor to look for his work with alot more vigour in the future.
Prof Dawkins has this ability to absorb all the rage and hostilities thrown at him, and still show more compassion, understanding and is more humble than all his religous counterpart combined.
Jim Jefferies hits the nail on the head on most subjects he tackles with that great Aussie sense of humour thrown in
Have you seen the video (it's actually a radio debate) entitled "Dr. Lawrence Krauss v. Creationist?" The creationist talk show host tries to argue physics with Dr. Krauss and gets completely and soundly trounced and even when Dr. Krauss eventually loses his reserve and tells this ignoramus off, not only is it delightful but well-deserved. I too am impressed by the scope of Dr. Krauss' knowledge in other fields of science such as biology.
I listened to that after you mentioned Krauss earlier, it was in 3 parts on youtube. I had a chuckle, that radio host thought he was 'qualified' because he'd worked at microsoft, but got much of his 'ambush' material incorrect. Krauss does 'tell him good', I quite enjoyed that one as well.
There is no threat here, every human being must choose his own path. What I tell you is the path of truth. When a father sees his child in trouble, surely he defends him, and when a mother finds her child in danger she shields her child with her life, she does not threaten her child when he/she is in danger. Now I tell you the message of truth for there are many people in danger that don't see it. God is the father that defends you, yes He defends those who hate Him, for the conversion of a sinner brings much joy. You must receive His grace to know Him, you can not know Him on your own, only you can know Him when you adhere to the call(usually as simple as a prayer or acknowledgement through opening your heart and not closing your mind). The world is going down a path of its own destruction. Its vein and material. My body may reside here but my soul in Christ doesn't belong to the world. What I say doesn't come from the world only from God who is truth, that is why you don't understand what I tell you. I don't claim to be superior to you, both believers and nonbelievers are sinners alike. I am also a sinner, and i must suffer each day. But there is peace in Jesus because your suffering doesn't go unchecked. There is no more fear. The evil in the world spreads like wildfire and many hearts have grown cold. The truth is not something to be afraid of, you never hear people say that they are afraid of the light, its the dark they are afraid of. So why does the world embrace the dark? Because it doesn't belong to God and it hates the light. This is why there will be no peace on earth until light is embraced, but that peace can't be reached, only spoken so that those who embrace the light find their peace which Jesus gave us. Im not trying to convince you of anything nor tell you how to live, but that every person was created as apart of something much greater than himself. Everyone has a family they love, how terrible for anyone that loses their family. You can respond as you wish as this is my last post, I don't have any need to speak further. If you find yourself in need you can remember these words, God does not condemn people, they condemn themselves, God loves the sincere repentant heart and turns no one away who asks for help.
Oh yes, there is definitely threats in your preachings. At least have the honesty to own what you say.
There was no 'need' for your preachings in the first place. There was your wish though.
You say you're not trying to convince me of anything nor tell me how to live?
Again, have the decency, and honesty, to own what you say. You and your kind most definitely do try to convince people you're correct, and how they should live. Don't do yourself the insult of trying to say you don't.
Are you that blinded by faith, that used to accepting and parroting those lies, you can't even see the obvious wrongs just in your last post?
You're almost admirable in your immunity to reason.
C|‡•))
Well put.
I find it insulting that you or anyone else tells me that your magic man is my father. I sure that my dad had intercourse with my mother and just may-be the magic man's name may have been mentioned, my old man did all the hard work in creating me and my sisters.
What is someone who believes not based on knowledge, evidence or intelligence and claims knowledge that he does not have? Answer: st*pid.
Everything is stupid to you, intellect is invisible to those that have none. It has been previously said to you that the answers lie within yourself. The truth resides in everyone. Hence meditation and the ancient grecian saying "know thyself"
So, it's intellectually valid to believe in something the existence of which you cannot prove and which you know nothing about and by nature can know nothing about.
Says a lot about your mental capacity.
Intellectually valid? You sound like a vulcan unable to understand human
traits. You have and will continue to hold beliefs that you dont
necesarily have proof of until the day you die. You dont even realise
it.
And just which beliefs are these?
P.S. 2½ spelling errors on this post. The word is "don't." The word is "necessarily." "Realise" is correct if you are British or live in what was once a British colony such as India. However, I don't think you do. So I just gave you half off on that one.
" Its unfortunate that atheists have such a distorted view of religion"
Just curious as to why you think atheists have a 'distorted' view of religion, when many of us non-believers were raised in religiously-observant homes. Rather than a distorted view, it gives many of us the chance to closely observe religion in action. One can't get any closer than that, I don't think.
Perhaps its our *intimate* view of religion that led us to non-belief.
Something to think about.
(And don't come back with "oh, you must not have been "real" christians." That's got to be the lamest defense ever. At least *try* to think up something better than that.)
"many of us non-believers were raised in religiously-observant homes" Does not mean you saw the way religion works. You saw one instance particular to your own family under that one roof. The variables are immense.
So is the bullsh-t.
Again no meaningfull reply no contribution to the debate just a sly cheap dig. Pathetic.
You think that the atheists here don't know enough about religion to debate it meaningfully, which was your response to a comment I posted two years ago, without knowing anything about me, or what led me to the position I have now. And furthermore, without any interest in that, other than to make a glib remark about what you think atheists use humor for. Well, boy, are you in for a big surprise! Stick around for a while, and we'll see if your best arguments don't constitute "the zenith of mongoloid reasoning," in the words of W. Allen. But don't expect me to participate all that much, as I've grown more than weary and fed up with your stripe.
For some reason, your reply brought to mind another delightful short story of Dostoevsky (he didn't write many) entitled "How a Muzhik Fed Two Officials" and Boccacio's story of a priest who "put the devil in hell." You'll find it in the Decameron.
P.S. Speaking of GoldenSilence's post, note how in Ivan's Tale in "Karamazov" how t he inquisitor is rendered supernummerary just like the religion he stands for.
I'll look into those when I'm caught up, especially 'The Decameron,' one I've always known about and intended to read at least some of.
You, Docoman, and the rest, have fun ripping this guy a new one. Clearly, he needs it.
Don't exclude yourself from the bacchanalia.
The Decameron is a hoot. May I also suggest Rabelais (the Jacques LeClerq translation)--I'm sure you'll get behind Friar John of the Funnels just as GoldenSilence will get in front of him.
"You think that the atheists here don't know enough about religion to debate it meaningfully" I never said or implied that? Shall I repost the comment here or do you want to re-read? I say you wont debate because you can't. I dont normally partake in these discussions because they are futile but I object to being called unquestioning and idiotic by someone displaying those very same traits.
But you are unquestioning and idiotic.
More insults you are pathetic. You cant debate me. Neither could your sidekicks. Before you cut and paste me to death I stand by my original argument that Newton was more intelligent than you or I and believed in God so your
statement that religious people or people who believe in God are s*upid m*rons
has been proven to be rubbish. I love the way you try to explain that Newton
might have been great in a couple of fields but doesn’t make him an all round
genius. Does it not strike you as ironic that the field he excelled in was
Science? That he abided by the scientific method?
Oh, please... The word "here" is the one you're going to jump all over as operative? You're a liar if you claim your comment doesn't extend to atheists wherever you find them. Nor does it matter one whit to me what you think my knowledge of religion is, or what my skills at debating are. You have fun getting your specious arguments, and your a$$ with them, chewed to a bloody rag: That's all that matters to me!
The word "here" what huh? You talking gibberish now boy. Off you trott ...good contribution (not)
You're dishonest, a liar, which is exactly what I expected of you. You have no argument against what I've said, so you resort to idiotic dissimulation. It's going to be just terrific watching you be made a fool of, boy. You might want to make sure you've got plenty of lube on hand.
Ta ta.
HAHAHA how am I dishonest? What you said is twisted BS. Humour is the 1st place somebody (ANYBODY) would go to to avoid a meaningfull debate about something they know nothing of.
More fool you.
Further... You are a cheeky git implying that I use dissimulation when that is exaclty the kind of underhand trick you have done twisting my words to make it look like im attacking all Atheists.
Before you can have a meaningful [please note spelling] debate, you must first have knowledge and this places you at a steep disadvantage.
P.S. The only person you've successfully attacked is yourself.
Listen I can point out your spelling mistakes too but its childish and detracts from the debate. What knowledge do you have? You now have the knowledge (thanks to myself) that many a genius have believed in God so your argument is trash.
So what? Would you like a list of geniuses who did not believe in God, many of whom used humor to help get their point across? And, according to you, they were ipso facto clueless atheists.
Therefore, your argument is trash.
So what? So what? YOU said all that believe in religion are i*iots and m*rons. Your wrong so admit it!
I did not call them i*iots and m*rons, I called them asinine camels. There's a subtle difference, in that i*iots and m*rons are brighter than asinine camels.
Those comments were intended for robert. My mistake.
So what? You said all that believe in religion are stupid and moronic. You are wrong so admit it?
In that one respect, they are--i.e., they might be brilliant in other fields as was Newton.
So arrogant.
So, the majority of the world including great minds like Newton, Copernicus,
Bacon, Faraday and Einstein are all mentally deficient compared to you and the
gang?
That is not what I said.
"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human
weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends
which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle
can (for me) change this." — Albert
Einstein, letter to Eric Gutkind, January 3 1954
In short, you are a liar and a cheat.
That is exaclty what you are saying. So Einstein thought the bible primitive and pretty childish but honourable. Does that disprove God or my claim that not all believers are idiots?
It certainly doesn't prove the existence of god (remember, you're alleging the existence of such an entity and the burden of proof rests on you and you have yet to meet it), but it does prove that Einstein was not a theist as you have alleged.
The burden of proof does not rest on me. I am content and I normally do not troll comment sections trying to find, enforce or gain support for my views. I just dont like being called an i*iot by
Didn't your mother ever teach you that when it comes to knowledge, might does not make right? Retournons á nos moutons, just because many a genius has (please note "many a" takes the third person singular not plural) believed in a god (which one I am sure is completely beyond both of us), does not prove that there is one or even several. This makes your argument trash.
P.S. Please feel free to correct my spelling (and I don't mean typo's) at any time. So far, you've misspelled meaningful at least twice.
Its ok dont get your knickers in a twist over my spelling because I frankly dont care.
Your spelling is as sloppy as your thinking. Must be your religion at work.
Your personal attacks are boring and transparent. My spelling is probably down to the fact your stupidity is draining. I go now because you have lost and resort to this child like behaviour.
I.e., "You won't have Richard Nixon to kick around any more."
You are clearly trying now to be a smart arse picking on my spelling and giving me a grammar lesson. You have lost this argument but will not accept it.
"You have lost this argument but will not accept it," as Dewey said to Truman.
You obviously need further education in both areas, not to mention education in general.
You called Newton an i*iot that makes you an i*iot. It is people like you who give atheists a bad name. You troll the comments looking for more converts to your set of beliefs shamelessly using nothing but cheap humour and sarcasm to make yourself feel better. You have more in common with the religious fanatical nutjob than you know. You and them are the same, full of ignorance and intolerance twisting the truth and avoiding the real issues.
Your aggressive and highly emotional outburst is ridiculously child like. This is my post
“humour is the refuge of the clueless atheist that does not know the first thing about religion to debate it meaningfully”
Amongst the context of the reply, the person to whom it was directed (not you) and the fact it is hardly an all encompassing universal statement of truth I’d say your accusations of me being a liar are wild and unjustified knee jerk reactions to your obvious disappointment at not being able to snare me with your twisting of my words.
PS I don’t search for Atheists and I don’t stereotype people, groups or beliefs under one ugly sprawling generalisation because it is ignorant of individuality, individual experiences and a whole manner of other variables that your ignorant arse cant comprehend.
The way your little crew use school yard bullying tactics amongst other ignoble methods shows the level of maturity you are all at.
..
Stick around no thanks ....
"the zenith of mongoloid reasoning"
Spoken like a true prick I'd say.
But the common thread running through it is the belief in an entity which cannot be proven to exist and which by nature cannot be known about, but which certain people claim to know about--and the attempt at domination by these certain people.
So by your reasoning, no human ever sees how religion works beyond their natal family, since we are all individuals, raised by our own families under our one roof. Fair enough, we all have our unique experiences.
That doesn't therefore mean we never have the opportunity to observe religion in action outside our families, or to participate ourselves. Nor does it mean our homes were closed to religious, clergy and lay alike.
Speaking from personal experience, it was my very dissatisfaction with my personal experience with religion that led me to investigate first other religions, then "spirituality," and then to come to my current conclusions about it.
(sorry for late response, this new disqus format makes it hard to follow )conversations,now)
No problem - Disqus is awful. I think I just wanted to speak
out against using generalisations. People here have been quick to label me a
"religee" (new word coined by Achems as far as I can see) but my
experiences are more akin to yours except for the outcome. I don't follow
organised religion because I am stubborn and like to follow my own counsel plus
most religions are actually terrifying in their beliefs and actions. I was
recently reading about speaking in tongues (pentecostal belief) and seeing
people run about in circles before diving onto the floor. Shocking conduct for
ones supposedly blessed with the holy spirit!
" . . . where is God, really he has been waiting for the people to listen to Him but they never do and so they blame their problems on Him. This attitude is what caused Jesus to be crucified, and until the world ends this attitude will never change therefore your pain and suffering will never cease." Where is your proof that such a god (obviously your god) exists? How do you know that such an attitude (whatever that is) caused "Jesus" to be crucified? Talk about dumb, illogical and downright stupid. If this represents the depth of your thought, religion together with its half-wit sister, faith, is indeed a problem which nothing, including your subterfuge "you don't understand" can cure--except real education. . .
Organized religions are the same as companies. They compete for customers. So they have different interpretations of the Bible in the same way companies develop unique products. When Martin Luther said that we are not saved by the works that the catholic church prescribed he was pointed out their error. He then started his own "company" where he began to market his own version of error. All interpretations of the Bible that hold it to be a description of physical events that occurred long ago are fouled with contradiction. This contradiction can only be eliminated through the consistent and exclusive application of figurative meanings for a handful of words, the first four of which are given in the Bible itself and they lead, by way of the "road map" of common denominators (that which scholars call "the synoptic problem") directly to the others. In this "interpretation" which has no contradiction, (and no exceptions to the function of its structure) the Bible is describing an evolutionary process of natural selection whereby the human race moves from a base-level convicting conscience to one of greater motivation.
In the natural world there is a process of "judgement" in the functioning course of natural selection. The evolution of consciousness is no exception.
You're right; they are companies replete with public offerings, private placements and futures, each with its own prospectus. To paraphrse what Bart Ehrman said about trying to reconcile the contradictions in the synoptic gospels, when you take one from column A, two from column B, none from column C and nine from column D, you create your own brand new narrative.
btw robertallen1, got any more interesting articles? The tribal article was fascinating. Cheers :)
Haven't heard from you in some time.
On the other hand, there are a number of primitive tribes which believe in a higher being or a set of higher beings and they also manage to live their lives adequately. So contrary to some of the ignorant and idiotic assertions which have made their way to this thread, believing in a supreme being or a set of supreme beings is not essential to keeping us on the straight and narrow.
I watched all the videos and I can say it's awesome.I feared that I am one of the few but now I am convinced that I am one of many Atheists worldwide.I have a small suggestion for The Thinking Atheist that please include other religions too like Muslims,Hindus,Buddhists etc and tell them about the reality of their religions.It can significantly help others like us from being an Idiot to being an Atheist.
Welcome comrad. I'm not atheist but your friendly neighbor, the agnostic. Gotta watch those muslims though, say one negative thing and they'll go postal on ya ;)
I enjoy The Thinking Atheist videos - on The Judgment Day video why say when the sun rises?
The Judgment Day video - I follow all the The Thinking Atheist videos and enjoy them - but why say when the sun rises ?
@Kateye70. Funny comment, very witty. Just what this blog needs, for everyone to lighten up, and take things a little less seriously.
Anyways, to get back to my topic of interest before I was Trolled off of it, I can't champion Atheism and especially Anti-Theism (as Robertallen1 requested me to) because such positions are currently and only subjective opinions portrayed as objective fact and worse these subjective opinions portrayed as objective facts are being backed up by Rhetological Fallacies (I'm using the sample of Atheists and Anti-Theists I've encountered here on TDF for this observation). It's much smarter and more productive for me to champion the objective rules of rhetoric and philosophical logic.
As I mentioned before I put my claim out there to see the feedback of others. So far I've received baseless ridicule, personal attacks, ignorance, dominance posturing, comment bullying, comment drowning/filibustering, comment censoring, misunderstanding, name calling, flaming, commenter hunting/targeting, bias, rhetological fallacies, philosophical ill-logic, atheism dogma, pigeon holing, trolling, valid ridicule, praise, implied agreement ("but" replies), and a lot of comment mirroring/paraphrasing.
Not sure what to make of all that feedback as so much of it is not related to what I was claiming. Here's what I can make out. We all seem to agree that "science" is quite ignorant/mute/not-an-authority on the topic of a Creator/God. This has been expressed differently by others but nevertheless it's the same sentiment. We all seem to agree that "Science" (methodological naturalism) has observed an apparent lack of such a creature on the scale of a Creator/God in the nature that "Science" has studied thus far. This has also been expressed differently by others but is the same sentiment. No feedback was given to my observation that if such a Creator/God exists Methodological Naturalism is objectively showing such a creature is not part of nature (except one comment that such a position is speculation...to which I agreed). And no feedback was given to my observation that the objective observations of Methodological Naturalism that can conclude that if a Creator/God exists such a creature is not a part of nature is quite similar to the subjective observations of Theists that have claimed such a position for millennia (namely that God is not a part of nature).
Perhaps I missed some comments. There was a lot of comment drowning. Forgive me if I missed a comment of yours directly related to my claim that you felt added value to what I was saying (and that you feel I missed).
My movement away from religion and toward apatheism had nothing to do with science and everything to do with religion.
I'm still trying to figure out why science has to explain anything about religion, and why certain religious groups are so scared of science.
Isn't the whole point of faith that you don't prove or disprove anything?
Isn't the whole point of science that hypotheses are proposed, tested, falsified, proven or disproven, and repeatable?
The two subjects are unrelated as far as I can see.
Is your first statement altogether true? I mean was your movement away from religion concomittant with your study of science?
Yes, my statement is true. I have never confused religion and spirituality with the study of the natural world. Supernatural explanations have never been part of my world view, either. No matter how enticing such explanations might be, they just never made common sense to me. I would have 'liked' some of them to be true--it would have been fun!--but could never seriously believe them.
My movement away from religion started with that altar boy anecdote I gave elsewhere (realizing that girls were second-class citizens). It continued with a disappointment that god wouldn't talk to me, nor jesus, nor any of the other supposed demi-deities (saints) who were supposedly in heaven waiting for my conversations.
I found religious services to be boring. I found a darkened confessional scary, and could never think of anything I did that was bad enough to be punished by god, although the adults (priests, etc.) seemed to think I should (what could a 7 or 8 year old do that would be all that horrible?). I resented being made to say prayers and acts of contrition (really? wtf?? is what I would have said if I'd known that expression back then.) I questioned most of what I was being taught...need I go on?
Science is what it is...the study of what's around us. Completely unrelated to my search for any kind of spiritual connection to anything.
No, I don't understand, and probably will never understand, the religious impulse. Especially since it's so damned intrusive into everyone else's business.
I understand and consider myself fortunate that I never had to go through anything as intense as what you've described. But what baffles me is why your parents didn't step in or were they also embued with this pernicious nonsense?
The good thing is that like Sarcastic_Drew, and several other posters, you were able to step away from it and if you can do this, so can others.
The truly peculiar thing about indoctrination that I've found in my life is I'll have times where I stop and almost feel a wave of dirtiness sweep over me... a feeling that I am truly wrong and will feel some sort of wrath after I die.
Though I am a conscious non-believer, I think there's a subconscious part of me that doesn't necessarily believe, but has a fear of consequence. It doesn't come out often but it does come out. I wonder if other believer-turned-nonbelievers have this too. Permanent scarring, I guess..
It's certainly believable. I wonder if victims of child molestation go through something similar.
I must have been lucky, or just too thick-headed to not internalize the 'guilt' thing.
I was an adult before I realized that masturbation was supposed to be a 'sin' (probably because no one ever explained exactly what it was in relation to the 'sin' being talked about). I certainly never regarded it that way.
I never really had a good grasp on what hell was supposed to be, anyway--no matter how I tried, I just couldn't visualize it, or believe in it. And heaven was the same way...it seemed like a cartoon place, not a real place. Kind of like its inhabitants who wouldn't talk to me.
I do think we all have a fear of consequence, though. Although I imagine it is probably fear of consequences in the here-and-now, displaced to a fear of the here-after.
It could be my personal trait (flaw?) of always wanting to do the right thing seeping into this ultimate question "to believe or not to believe?" which gives me that intermittent "guilt" feeling.
My father is a devout catholic, my mother is an agnostic. I was never baptized (thankfully, that was my mother's decision much to the dismay of my father). She wanted me to grow up and make my own choice. Her point-of-view on belief ultimately helped me "convert" from believer to non-believer after a long road of testing out different denominations of Christianity.
My parents (despite my father's strong faith) were never pushy. I just had developed the faith at an early age, being introduced to such glittery subjects like "heaven" and such threatening beliefs such as "non-believers will go to hell."
It's this trapping of the innocent (children) that is such a serious issue and goes without punishment in society. I was brought up with both belief and non-belief, being more influenced by my mother as most children are. Despite the higher level of influence, I flocked to belief because it caters itself to children! Religion is a salesman in disguise. Non-belief offers much less "candy" to an imaginative child. This salesmanship of religion is unethical and needs to be dissolved.
Sorry Kate, I'm starting to digress. lol *ninja smoke*
You're absolutely right, religion sells to children. It is designed to. It's also designed to prevent adults from becoming questioners (although it's an uphill battle, given our species' inquisitive nature).
There's a darned good reason most advertising is targeted to children. Just think of the Joe Camel controversy (a cartoon character with definite sexual visual components that promoted tobacco use). They had a hard time defending that one.
Most of television, both programming and advertising, is aimed at the under-30 crowd because that's when opinions are still forming. Once you become a functioning adult, your brand preferences are set. Yes, you can change them, but it is a conscious act of will to do so. Edit: In fact 30 may be too old, 20-25 is the cut-off age.
The Jesuits' famous adage, "Give me the child and I'll give you the man" is true on so many levels it's scary.
Funny you mention "Cool" Joe Camel. :) I had a Joe Camel calender in my room growing up. My father took it away from me. My argument to him was... "just cause he's on the calender doesn't mean I'm going to smoke?" What an ironic statement, considering I had done exactly what Camel wanted me to do. Familiarize yourself with the product, sympathize with the product, and you'll become more apt to use it in the future! lol
Guess what brand I ended up smoking a couple years later? Cool Camel Lights! lol Did I start smoking specifically from the introduction to the calender? Nope. But could it have subconsciously played a part in me chosing to smoke? I wouldn't doubt it. (Thankfully, I quit cold turkey about 6 years ago. PHEW!)
Oh I still enjoy cold turkey especially the leg.
Note: Sorry. I know you mean you quit smoking cold turkey but I am hard-wired genetically to never miss a pun.
mmmmm turkey. You've triggered my genetically hard-coded mechanism called hunger!
I quit cold turkey over 20 years ago with no side effects.
I quit five years ago using Chantix. It worked but there were some not altogether unpleasant side affects.
I have been trying to get my gf to quit for months. I've heard mixed reviews about Chantix but if it works for some, it could work for others! I know this is off-topic but could you explain your experience with Chantix?
Chantix can have side effects. Lucid dreaming was my main side effect. Lucid dreaming is a fine experience but not when you do it night after night for months. And it continued for almost a year after I had finished the Chantix.
Another side effect only happened occasionally. I would be reading and suddenly nothing would make sense. I could read a sentence and understand and define each word in that sentence but I could not comprehend what the sentence was trying to say. The worst was one day I was driving behind a handicapped shuttle and it had a sign on the back that read "This is an Invalid Transport". Now we know the sign meant that this was a transport for invalids. But my mind read it as being a transport that was not valid. And my mind would not let it go. I kept asking myself "If this transport is not valid then why are they transporting with it?". It took me hours to figure it out.
Now you can maybe understand why they will not allow airline pilots to take Chantix.
Sh*t man, I get confused like that without any aide from a drug! haha fml!
At the end of the day I guess the positives definitely outweighed the negatives. If I can only push my gf to get the 'script. Now that will be challenging :)
I'm not so sure that it was the Chantix itself that caused me to quit. I just wasn't going to pick up another cigarette after going through the side effects. They were close to becoming a serious problem.
robertallen Congratz! I didn't quite quit cold turkey. Every craving I'd get (usually when drinking) I'd pop a cigar in my mouth unlit and within a minute or two, I'd toss it. After a few months of doing this, I didn't need the cigar anymore. An odd approach, but it was effective. ^_^
Your comment really got me to thinking. You set up a very interesting dilemma. On one hand you have religion with its "advertising" which promotes its cultural standards whilst (I love that word) the other hand is busy dealing its secular strictures. The question then becomes,in the matter of raising children, not which path is best but more importantly which path is the least corrosive to a child's, well, childhood.
I wouldn't say scaring, your beliefs your faith will always be a part of you; it's just human nature. Faith will sustain you when everything else is gone. When there is no logical reason for to succeed or survive; Faith has given people the strength to do so. Faith is a survival trait that's why it's all but impossible to let go of. The ability to override reason is the strength and danger of Faith.
Faith is the mark of the ignorant and the idiotic.
Perhaps, however it is a part of human nature and everybody has faith in something. The Believer has faith in the doctrine of their religion. The Atheist has faith in logic,rationality,science. Faith, to me at least is a lot like Nuclear Power. The same force that drives civilization like nothing else. If used just a little bit differently can cause untold devastation.
There is a big difference between faith and reliance.
I would disagree. While it is true the theist requires "faith" to verify their belief, it is not a matter of "faith" in regards to understanding reason, logic, science, and rationality. It is just that: understanding. It would be more accurate to ask someone "Do you understand evolution" as opposed to "Do you believe in evolution". That argument stands true for all questions in this matter. Faith is required for questions on things that cannot (and will not) be known. Sadly, this disconnect on reality runs rampant in our world society. I do agree that throughout history, faith has enthralled the minds of our kind.
Don't worry, eventually you will release all of that nonsense. I went through the same thing for a long time, until I had the opportunity to start talking to other non-believers.
I watched a movie about the wife of Joseph Smith (founder of the mormons), because it was supposedly about her more than the religion. But sadly, it failed for me because:
1. there were many many scenes that made no sense unless one already knew the details of how the mormon church got started (I don't except vaguely); and
2. It was disconcerting to hear people talk utter nonsense as if it were sense. Seriously. It was like listening to children deliberately creating and reinforcing a fantasy game.
A few years ago, I would have been able to suspend my own disbelief to go along for the ride, but now...no.
I can play a fantasy game online, pretend I'm druid, that I can shapeshift into a raven and fly, and discuss doing this with other game-players 'as if' it were true--but none of us make the mistake of thinking there is anything real about it.
Come to think about it, we talk about dying and have spells like 'rebirth' and 'revive' to bring back player's avatars that have died. But again, while one can fall off a cliff and die in the game knowing one will return to life with a small amount of armor damage, this does not apply to real life.
I can watch movies that I know are fantasy, and I don't get the sense that either the actors or the director expect me to 'really' believe it. But religious people...smh.
Like I said, it is disconcerting to talk to anyone who claims to believe religious dogma. It makes me uncomfortable because then I wonder if they're delusional, or lying about their belief to see if I'll go along with the game. One is crazy, the other is dishonest.
I like number 2. It describes religion, and especially the Catholic church as well as a number of posters, to a T.
Oh, I hope I didn't give the impression that this was a journey away from a painful upbringing. I was simply remembering my childhood in a catholic home. My parents went to church on Sundays and of course, we children went too. I went to catechism class on Saturdays. But there was no heavy-handed religiosity in our home.
My parents were of an era where one went to church because...that's what people did. Both of my parents were kind, loving people who did their best to raise a large family of bright, inquisitive children--my mother told me when I was an adult that she felt intimidated sometimes by us when we questioned *everything.*
What I related was my own response to the catholic church. I was excited to go to catechism class, although I don't know that the teachers always appreciated my questions. I hated the dark confessionals--and had a priest who was kind enough to sit outside with me to go through the ritual.
But in the end, I was making up stories (lying, in other words) just to come up with 'sins' to confess. I found the rituals boring. I people-watched instead of following the mass. Perhaps I was just too inner-directed to be easily led, but I did learn fairly early that religion was not an answer for me. But there was no trauma involved.
And also Sarcastic_Drew
You've clarified and I'm glad you were not as unfortunate as I thought.
It seems to me (and I've never raised any children) that if you take a child to the Grand Canyon which the child gazes at in awe and then explain to the child that it took millions of years to form this natural wonder and the child asks, "How do we know that" then you're both on the right track.
Your thoughts.
What Kateye70 is expressing is what I have observed among Atheists/Anti-Theists...namely that the decision to be Atheist/Anti-Theists is not based on science but commonly a personal choice "pendulum swing" as it were away from religion.
You're completely wrong about what I said.
I'm not an atheist. I'm not anti-theist. I could care less what anyone else believes. Go look up "apatheist" and you'll have a better understanding.
There's no pendulum swing involved, either. It's been a steady journey in one direction that has lasted for many, many, many years. My outlook away from religion is only more confirmed the more I learn.
The only thing you said right is that it was a personal choice, just like any one's choice to be theist, a-theist, anti-theist, apa-theist, or whatever. Spiritual belief, IMHO, is a personal, interior choice.
Apatheism is also called Pragmatic Atheism or Practical Atheism (wikipedia-apatheism). I've covered you under my wordage "Atheist/Anti-Theist." I typically see no need for me to get uber precise and say it like, "Pragmatic Atheists, Logical Atheists, Theoretical Atheists, New Atheists, State Atheists, Religious Atheists." You're an Atheist (that's what a government agency gathering Statistics would mark you down as). And more specifically a Pragmatic/Practical Atheist. And you prefer to be called an Apatheist. We agree on my point: Atheism/Anti-theism (and for you Apatheism) are personal choices. The pendulum swing may not be a turn in the pendulum for you so much as a definite swing towards the Atheist side vs the Theists side (of the pendulum as it were). We are saying the same thing but saying it differently.
Pendulums, by definition, move in two directions. The implication is that eventually my journey will swing back towards theism. It won't.
Nor do I care to be lumped with "anti-theists" since I'm not against anyone else's beliefs. They are welcome to them.
If you remove the phrases "pendulum swing" and "anti-theist" I might agree with the rest of your comment:
"...the decision to be atheist...is not based on science but commonly a personal choice...away from religion." Of course, this is assuming that the person was raised in a theist household. Not everyone is.
p.s. I prefer the 'urban dictionary' definition of apatheist: "Someone who just doesn't care whether God exists or not and realizes that such a fact won't effect their life anyway, comes from the word 'apathy' meaning "absence of emotion" and 'theism' meaning "belief in God"."
p.p.s. I'm not likely to answer questions from government agencies regarding my personal beliefs.
Great comment. You wont be replied to because you have not displayed any weakness (a inclination to believe) to these ravenous wolves who want to rip me a new intellectual and leave me a bloody rag. I purposely went in a bit heavy and even left a few intentional spelling mistakes for
MR Speak n Spell. I cant help it.
An inclination to believe without evidence is, to put it mildly, a weakness, just as leaving a few intentional spelling mistakes.
OQ,Vlatko,Over_the_Edge,Epicurus,Achems_Razor,Sarcastic_Drew and, of course, everyone else.
If you search for "primitive atheism"," you will find an interesting rticle by Austin Cline on the subject of tribes with no religious beliefs to speak of. I wonder if there are any documentaries on the tribes mentioned and if so, whether they can be placed on TDF. So much for religion being a part of evolutionary development. So much for religion being needed to ensure or instill a sense of morality and ethics.
Weird.. my reply to your tribal comment got flagged as "needs mod approval" lol...
I saw a talk on ted dot com (maybe that's what flagged it?) about such a tribe that does not have a concept of god. It wasn't the main point of the talk, but the section regarding them being godless was fascinating. I can't remember the name of it unfortunately.. If I come across it, I'll let you know robert.
It was probably because of the URL. I would appreciate your comments on the article.
I just read this article. Definitely an interesting read. Funny how these so-called primitive tribes have such a simple yet elegant attitude toward the cosmos. --I'm not sure if there's a cosmos, so I won't waste my time thinking about it.-- It makes me think back to something I stated earlier in this forum regarding the lack of religious education. These tribal members did not receive brainwash training in adolescence, therefore they just plain don't give it a thought. These people seem a lot less primitive than the civilized world makes them out to be. :)
Side note: It would be interesting to see what different religious groups think about tribes that have not been introduced to their sect. In the afterlife, would they get a pass since they just haven't received the good Word yet, therefore are as innocent as the unborn? Or would they be sent straight to hell, afterall (at least in Christianity terms) they are born with the original sin.
Good question. But I don't want these religious groups, especially Catholics, to find out about these tribes because they just would not be able to leave them alone.
Unfortunately, they're trying! :( My dad's church sends people to Africa to "help raise their standard of living." Fine print: to mind f*ck the inhabitants!
Grrr...
Missionaries stand for everything I'm against. All of them are despicable and deserve the horrible things that happen to them.
I watched an interesting talk on ted regarding an anthropologist who lived with a tribe to learn their way of life. He mentioned a story about a couple missionaries who wanted to bring faith to a local tribe. They first flew over-top of the tribe and dropped photos of themselves hoping to get the tribe to become familiar with their faces so when they did make first contact, the tribesmen would be more apt to be friendly. To their surprise, the tribesmen thought it was the work of witchcraft and evil spirits. When they finally did meet the tribe, they were met with spears and death. I would be lying if I said I didn't snicker under my breath.
These i*iot missionaries think they are doing good when in fact they are bringing not only culture-breaking belief but potentially life-threatening disease. Learn from history and leave these tribes alone!
Vlatko, you have just proved that bias is not exclusive to the religious ones.
The study asked whether you believe in God(singular). Now look at all the biases you have falsely introduced.
Nice to know you are human.
@Emanouel,
What I've stated are not biases but hard core facts. You can check them out if you want.
The question in your questionable study may be indeed posed in singular, but that doesn't mean anything nor proves anything. It only means 88% of the people believe in their own different Gods, not universal God.
Don't get me wrong Vlatko; I do sympathise with your views on religion. For instance, Islam does contain anti-Jewish/anti-Christian rhetoric(unsurprisingly) but to blame violence on religion is a cop-out in my opinion. Man cannot be allowed to lay blame on religion for evil acts committed in its name. By blaming religion for man's evil acts, we are in essence, providing justification for man's evil acts.
Only man himself should be blamed for evil acts. Religion cannot be relied upon as a defence.
I see your point here. It's the old "Guns don't kill humans, humans kill humans" argument.
Religion though is not an object, or an entity outside oneself (like a gun, knife, sword etc). You forget that religion, whether REAL or FALSE, is inside the brain, inside the human, manipulating the person to act in accordance, and parallel to, the laws of their religion. Religion is not a gun. It is a man-made phenomena that can be dissolved if the person so wishes it.
This manipulation, and the passionate actions based upon it, is what makes religion so dangerous to the brain, to the person in charge of the brain, and tragically, to others in the area that do not concur with this point-of-view. To believe and morph fantasy to reality, is to invite virus to oneself, able to control and break down their intuitive world.
Yes, I guess it is the ol' "Guns don't kill humans, humans kill humans" argument.
And yes, potentially, religion can disturb illogical minds even further.
There are studies that even suggest that violent video games/movies can distort the reality of a small percentage of people.
On the whole, most of the population can be expected to act within normal limits.
Religion, whether real or false, should not be treated in a cathartic manner simply because of a minority element that might flip out. Personally, I see no harm in little ol' ladies going to church on Sunday mornings or the bereaved seeking comfort.
Again, I see your point, but religion is much more involved than a simple cold gun argument. Children are forced at an early age to believe in fantasy, innocent children that cannot think for themselves yet.
Moreover, religion plays a part in child mental development, always shrouding them from truth, always warping the way they see the world. It is a slow progressive virus that infects the mind. I have been a victim of this as I am sure many people here have, religious and non-believers alike.
Religion is not an object, cold and tangible. It is a way of life, a way of thinking. People ARE responsible for their thoughts, my good sir. If you are not responsible for your own thoughts (and to follow, your actions), than what on earth is one responsible for?
Absolutely, but at least it's curable if caught in time.
Just one suggestion though, more of a stress on actions. After all, I can think of murdering someone, but if I never do, no harm, no foul.
Unfortunately, if the person remains uneducated, I don't think there could ever be a cure. Religion has had thousands of years to perfect it's scheme whereas non-belief has had a mere couple hundred years of fear-free thinking and action.
I do think we can win this war against fantasy. Unfortunately, I don't think any debate with adults will be the "A-bomb" that ends the war.
To cure the cancer, we have to rid the tumor from it's source, the next generation. Dissolve Sunday schools, and put in place hmm.. Reality Schools? ...schools that teach children about the beauty of nature, the helpfulness of science to humanity, and the dangers of speaking fallacy.
It is mostly uneducated people that put food on your table. Without them you'de have no time to educate yourself, you'de be gardening full time.
1i
What if I told you, one can be educated and a farmer at the same time...
In fact, farmers have to be quite educated if they want to be successful. Stating that MOST farmers are uneducated is kind of insulting :p
Most of the fruits and veggies on your table are grown by non-(highly)educated (in the formal sense) people although those same people are administered by educated people.
Sorry but you are wrong, I have the upmost respect for all gardeners of the world including the peasants in rural areas.
I do not evalutate people by their education but by their values.
The five most important verbs to me are
be
have
do
give
love
behave and do give love all ways always
1i
Completely irrelevant to the discussion.
Do you think that farming is void of educated people?
Check all the colleges, universities, about "farming" courses, a person has to have the smarts and be well educated to be a farmer!
No i don't. I have many educated gardener friends around here. But most feed themself, i guess it takes smarts to know not to grow grass around your house but food instead.
1i
I go to the supermarket.
i see you get my point!
1i
"Check all the colleges, universities, about "farming" courses, a person has to have the smarts and be well educated to be a farmer!"
:) My uncle was a farmer, then went to Cornell Ag, stated in the ag field, and has since become a big wig at the biggest tractor producer in the world.
So he works at John Deere, right?
Yep, the mean green american machine :)
From what I've read about it, the company deserves its fine reputation.
A true gardener has to love to have his hands in earth and worms like a baker needs to have his hands in flour and yeast.
1i
So what? Is this your way of standing up for lack of education?
No wonder why creationists and the like push so hard to have their garbage made a part of public school curricula. Their idea of education is to ram superstition, faith, blind acceptance and ignorance down students' throats.
Interesting comments- how do we raise them(children)?
Do we comfort them(falsely) with the notion of a God who will protect them from harm OR do we shower them with the reality of how evil and crappy this world really is?
Maybe a child psychiatrist is better equipped to handle this query.
@Emanouel
The world is not ALL evil and crappy. The majority of this world and its peoples that live upon it are caring creatures of nature. We love each other. We help each other. Non-believers will try to resuscitate a heart-attack victim just as much as a believer. In fact, they might just resuscitate harder, knowing how precious life truly is! Out of the billions of possibilities you could have been, only YOU are the one that won the race. Preciousness. Something a believer (generally) can take for granted (considering there's this MUCH better afterlife ahead).
If one's mindset is one that the world is all evil and crappy without the introduction of religion, I don't want that person to be influencing my children.
What do you tell a 6 year old girl at her mother's funeral?
Do you tell her that her mom is going to heaven to play with the angels OR that her dead mom is lunch for the unseen minions of worms and critters?
It sounds like you live in a great world that you've described.....a different reality. Reality is not the same for all.
Definitely something like the latter. Understanding death as a natural part of life is far superior to any piece of religious nonsense.
@Emanouel That is a great question. A hard question too.
In fact, we did run into a similar but less tragic event, one which brought to the limelight, the question of death, which occured suddenly to one of our pets. She was quite distraught about it. So, I sat her down and I explained to her that everything on this earth goes through this change. When we bury her, her body goes back to the earth, but she is always there. I told her to be happy, because you actually didn't lose her. She's in the earth, she's in the trees,she's helping other animals. She's in the warm air. I told her to not be sad that she's gone, because she never did leave. She just changed and she will always here. I am not a "#1 Dad" sort of character and do not know all the answers. But I will say that calmed her down. She did not feel the detachment as much and was able to cope with the death and move on with her life.
Was I right to tell her the truth? That's open to interpretation. But I felt good about comforting her and in a fuzzy warm roundabout sort of way, told her the truth at the same time.
You don't have to use phrases like "minions of worms and critters" to explain the beauty and cycles of nature.
As I wrote, you have to temper your presentation to the age and intellectual and emotional maturity of the child you're dealing with and that you apparently did. You did the right thing; you don't have to justify it and it's not open to interpretation. However, there are two bright points: 1. Being a pet and not a relative made it much eaiser to explain to the child what death is. 2. The child will probably get another pet whom the child will love and care for just as much as the first one.
Should have read this before writing my own response! ;)
lol no worries. I like your explanation too. In fact, it kind of shows the (religious) world, that there is another way of handling death that can be JUST as comforting as a fantasy lie. In fact, the description of your mother, becoming a mother in death, keeping other beings safe and fed and happy is much more comforting than a teleportation to deep space where she eternally idles.
Many religious people would consider it a morbid description, but if you reaaally look at it, it's such a beautiful process.
My condolences to you and yours on your loss. Cheers!
I found your words sweet- from the heart-who could ask for more?
Have been to many funerals when young, did not ask so no one told me, would of not believed the religion garbage even if I was told, figured it out for myself.
It should be illegal to brainwash children about religion.
I find it no different than child molestation.
"It should be illegal to brainwash children about religion."
Walter White: "You're G*d d*mn right!"
On the basis that religion is a lie?
Then we must outlaw all lies.
How would you define what a lie is?
At least the legal profession would be happy
Why? do you figure that lies are good? sure outlaw all lies and good luck.
A lie is an untruth.
The legal profession would not be happy. Then everyone would be innocent or guilty period, no search for the truth, no accumulating hourly lawyers fees. Would not even need lawyers. "AND NO RELIGION!"
So Achems_Razor, according to you;
Every personal belief that cannot be validated by scientific process is a lie and thus religion should be made illegal.
Should we outlaw Santa Claus and Christmas, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy?
You have stated that religion should be outlawed. Why do you believe that religion has not been made illegal though?
According to you "sure outlaw all lies.... A lie is an untruth..... everyone would be innocent or guilty period, no search for the truth."
Sounds utopian, dare I say heavenly.
You are trying to twist my words, anyway this is boring, so will let it go.
Emanouel
you asked "What do you tell a 6 year old girl at her mother's funeral?" i think that depends on the child and how they were raised. i have nieces and nephews that sadly have had to deal with loss. my brothers and sisters did not raise their children in religious households and they did just fine comforting them without resorting to angels. but i will ask. what would you say to a six year old that was raised by a Wiccan, satanist or a member of the Westboro baptist church ? would you tell them what their religion says happens after death if that comforts them? or would you search for another was to comfort them?
Hope your nieces and nephews are doing fine.
Everything else is irrelevant.
In some cases, "ignorance is bliss"
My suggestion is when approaching a child with such difficult situation....keep the questions coming until he/she realizes that physical life is a system of composting. As for their soul bring them (by questionning) to see that soul and love is synonyme.
With children it is often better to not anwer them with one's own view but to question until they understand and accept their own view.
My way anyway!
1i
Emanouel, cruelty is not the only alternative to fairy stories. Why not just tell them the truth, it's hard to miss people and it's sad to say goodbye but it won't hurt forever. I took my kids to my mums funeral, they know she was buried and they understood that she is food not only for worms but also for the cherry tree we planted on her and the creatures that eat the fruit. It's not hard to understand and it's not difficult to explain. Start with a little white lie like heaven and pretty soon you're having to back it up with a god that magically takes dead people out into the depths of space where no telescope can see them, and has the power to make sure that the dead can watch over the living, because that idea is really comforting isn't it? Mud and worms are so much easier. Also makes insects less scary, one of them might be a bit of nanny! ;)
You really have talent. Why not use that wistful style of yours to write children's books?
I wrote to you yesterday about an abortion clinic opening up in Belfast. While it is not everything I would like, I feel it is a step in the right direction. I would appreciate your thoughts.
I nominate Dewflirt as head professor at the world's first Pre-ality School; an alternative to sunday school. :)
I think it's better that she write. She'll reach a larger audience. Think of it, she can use her logon as her pen name. I can see it now, "Dewflirt, that little girl from Ireland."
I disagree. We don't love each other. Show me in the history of man when there was a "We love each other" epoch. We've been at each others throat from day one. Better to understand that than to believe in platitudes.
Only in hippieland. While I agree with you in general, I cannot agree with you when it comes to individuals.
Yes certainly there are individuals who differ. As a species we are aggressive and we are merciless.
I have to agree with Sarcastic_Drew here. In my experience, more people are kind than unkind. It makes social sense, and we are a social species. While we have our aggressive and merciless moments, most people understand that, as the saying goes, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
But to deny as a species that we are aggressive and merciless by nature would be to deny the history of humanity, and in all probability, the prehistory of humanity.
We're animals, and like any animal we'll have our aggressive and merciless moments. We're thinking animals, so we can actually plan our aggressions. They usually have to do with one group gaining an advantage over another for the good of the group (however that group may be defined).
I'm not denying that there's plenty of negative, but there's plenty of positive, also. On a day-to-day, and one-to-one basis, I find the good outweighs the bad.
You sound as if you are an apologist for the human race. And I of course appear to be cynical of humanity. But let's be realistic.
Just an optimist =)
Then we shall leave it at that.
Here you go:
"While the optimist and the pessimist were fighting over whether the glass was half-empty or half-full, the realist came along and drank it."
=D
I'll drink to that.
Well put. If the majority of people were unkind, we'd all be living in small highly-fortified huts, preparing with paranoia for the next attack to happen.
Just as in the Middle Ages and before. It doesn't seem to have anyhing to do with whether the majority of people is unkind.
Well... in the context of my statement, I believe I am correct. As individuals we DO love each other. It doesn't matter what you do, your family will love you. No matter what your child does, you will love him/her. Of course there are always exceptions. Generally speaking though, as individuals, we are good.
I guess this opens up the can-of-worm question, what does it mean to be good?
You could argue that as a whole, we are a mischievous malevolent species. We commit genocide, we enact in slavery, we're constantly at war, etc.
But are these mere isolated incidents that were (and continue to be) committed contrary to the sentiment of the whole?
How do you measure the ethics of what we do "as a whole"?
What is the break-even point of good and evil?
Well if it is as you say we are constantly at war then by definition they cannot be isolated incidents.
I said "constantly" meaning no matter what time in history, somewhere in the world, there is a war. That doesn't mean (like you are hinting) that we, as in us as a whole, are constantly warring, because we aren't.
But it is a constant. But I'm not entirely talking of war when I say we are aggressive and merciless. War itself makes just a small part of that. We are aggressive and merciless in our relation to other species. We are the top of the food chain and we let every species know that. Bend to our will or you die. Or perhaps by dying you are bending to our will.
I do agree with you in that sense. We have a habit of letting our ego rule over us. In terms of the food chain and other factors, I think "bend or die" is how the game of life has been played by all. It isn't necessarily just a flawed human trait. Other species have success using this same strategy and have been for eons, much much longer than us. In fact, we are probably hard-coded to use such a strategy since we have evolved from the ancient creatures that have put it into play.
Are we the only species that is aggressive and merciless or do other animals get a pass because they aren't smart enough to recognize that they are being aggressive and merciless, despite using the same game tactic (ex. lions killing others for food, or say, male bears killing their offspring over territorial/domination disputes)?
I don't think any species other than human practices the "bend or die" philosophy. They are simply incapable of conceiving and practicing such a thing. There may be a case here or there but that would be the rare exception and certainly not driven philosophically.
There is simply no other species capable of doing what we are doing. We are now following that philosophy in relation to our planet. We are attacking the very infrastructure of our existence. And we know full well where and to what this will lead. We are in effect incapable of not being aggressive and merciless even if it portends our own demise.
Emanouel, I am going to give you an example of how I have handled a child's upbringing. My girlfriend has a child, whom we have been raising without the pollution of religion. We don't talk sh*t about religion to her, we just don't bring it up! Instead we teach her like every other child on this planet. We teach her about history, animals, the wonders of the universe, fossils etc... We take her on little trips to teach her about the world (fossil digging, fish hatcheries, museums). You should have seen her face light up when I told her how stars are formed. She is a child in awe and wonder of the world around her. She doesn't NEED to hear about Jesus. She doesn't NEED Allah to show her happiness and the beauty of the world.
Recently, my girlfriend's mother has been introducing her to Sunday school, MUCH to my dismay, but it's not my place to intervene. Since then, she has been much more distracted and diluted from reality. "God gave me this candybar, isn't he great!" "Jesus is making it rain right now because he wants our corn to grow!" "We have to pray or God will send us to hell! :( "
It is an utter disgrace to infect an innocent child's mind with fantasy that's been put in place of reality. I see it firsthand. Unfortunately, the seed has been sown. Without intervention this seed will sprout into 100% pure delusion.
I can believe you for I've seen this same thing happen with adults.
How does your girlfriend feel about her mother's meddling in her child's education?
"How does your girlfriend feel about her mother's meddling in her child's education?"
She is a bit uncomfortable about the situation. But unfortunately (for her daughter) she is not as passionate about keeping children free from indoctrination. She's not a believer per say, but a believer in some sort of energy (hippie crap lol) so she lets her daughter be open to.. well.. whatever.
I bite my tongue til it bleeds out of respect. Maybe I'm too nice of a bf. lol Regardless, if we do have a child together, I will hulk-rage if sunday school is ever mentioned as an option for his/her education.
I understand and there does not seem to be any more that you can do, but look at it on the bright side, there's your own child if you have one.
I certainly agree with you on this. My oldest daughter was never taught anything about religion, ever. At 31 she has no clue what Easter stands for religiously (as she was asked by a friend lately), to some that's ignorance to her it's pure gibberish.
1i
And she apparently lives her life just fine. Is that correct?
Yes, giving, loving and compassionate but also independent, driven and university uneducated.
Good day to all! off to work soon.
1i
Sometime ago, I read about a number of fairly primitive tribes with no religion (i.e., concept of a superior being) and they live their lives just fine. I wish I could remember where the article was. As a matter of fact, don't you think it would be a good idea to see if there's a documentary on such tribes and have Vlatko post it on TDF? I'd just love to read the posts about it from the religees.
I would be interested in watching. My impression is that such tribe would not see a GOD as per say, but would see the godly within nature.
1i
Please see my latest post to a number of posters, you included.
I hope your daughter will then teach her children with your wise insight. :)
You also bring up a BEAUTIFUL trait of being absence of religious training. People absent of theism, just don't give it a thought! This thinking (or lack thereof) must make your daughter's mind ever-fresh, ever-clear. I can't and will never experience this wonderful feeling because I was a victim of indoctrination. It will always be in my head for as long as I live.
You give me hope, oQ!
I repeat, religious indoctrination of a child is child molestation and yours is a case in point.
I opt for the latter. Let them learn to come face to face with the way things are.
Perhaps you are correct.
Just one thing. You might have to temper your presentation to the level of the child you are dealing with, but that's far superior to polluting his mind with religious garbage.
@Emanouel On a side note, thank you for being respectful and rational with your retorts so far. It is nice to DISCUSS issues with people, and not be trolled, or deflect from arguments.
"On the whole, most of the population can be expected to act within normal limits." Quite true because "normal limits" are defined in terms of most of the population.
But you're right. Religigion should not be treated in a cathartic manner, but rather in a dismissive one.
Well put.
I repeat what wrote to Emanouel. If all the religees were killed off through internecine warfare (i.e., with objects outside themselves), the world would start to become a better place. Don't you agree?
*googles: internecine* lol I am always having to google words from your comments, robertallen. Stop being so... so Webster! :)
I would hate to see anyone killed off, but I agree that without religion, people could be truly content with their lives in a truly real world.
I fear we've stumbled upon an appendix that has been long-overdue to shut down from it's inadequate purpose; an appendix, at one time serving as a sufficient sociological stabilizer, that has become a bulbous mass of ill-will, prejudice, and hate. Sadly this appendix has exploded, releasing it's toxins to all of humanity.
Maybe after the next extinction comes to pass, our rivals will become better equipped to handle such tomfoolery.
Religion as an appendix, what a nice anaology. Now the appendix has become inflamed.
If the religees want to kill each other off, that's all right with me.
If all the religees were killed off through internecine warfare, the world would start to become a better place.
When using "big" words you should make sure you spell them right.
Coming from you this phrase looses it's sense as you have been insulting many people for many reasons other than their religiosity, something that when done in person often starts little wars.
1i
Says the dangerous extremist. Your buloo pal.
The only "buloo" I find is a Mandinka word for arm or hand. Perhaps this is just another deliberate typo or misspelling.
Here, let us settle all the arguments in one shot. You want proof that there are higher forms of life, look in the mirror! How did you come to be? Well, your mommy, and daddy hooked up. So, how did the universe come to be? A couple of universe's hooked up, and created this one via sex! (or it was created a-sexually) Either way, the brain of the universe, (god) created us, just like I create the thoughts that occur in my 3 pound universe. (the human Brain) Those thoughts in turn create other thoughts, (like having children) which evolve, and pass on what they have learned (information) back up to the universe, so it can choose how to best survive more efficiently on it's realm of space, and time. (purpose to life)
This explanation would seem to fit the facts, far better than any religious doctrine, or the coldness of scientific explanation in themselves. The greatest mistake anyone can make is to believe that those who came before us, were absolutely stupid, and unaware. (knowledge has been lost, you can bet on it)
Physicist John wheeler said it best. (paraphrasing) take a room with tiles on the floor, and write an equation on one. Than write another equation on another tile that you think better describes the universe as we see it. When you have filled the floor, wave your magic wand, and tell the equations to fly, and they won't; but the universe does fly, (life) on a realm far beyond any description we can imagine.
Ultimately, the answers are right in front of us, but only if we choose to look, without bias. Personally, I am happy that none of us agree regarding what the universe is, and why are we here. If we all already knew the answer, what would be the point of existance?
I will end with a quote from Bruce Lee. "it is like a finger pointing a way to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger, or you will miss all the heavenly glory! Live long, and prosper everyone.
@awful_truth,
And what that suppose to mean? Is that some kind of evidence?
Your whole comment is an argument from ignorance. Take virtually any aspect of our natural world that we don't fully understand and you'll find someone claiming God is at the end of that dimly-lit tunnel.
@Vlatko. All I did was draw a parallel as to how the universe came into existance. (the same way we did) This is an observation, which the last time I checked, is part of scientific enquiry. I never attempted to prove anything, only give an explanation that seems to better fit the evidence than any mythology, or science's only attempt at explaining the origins of life.(on the back of crystals, give me a break) If the word 'god' bothers you so much, you should ask yourself why that is. If it is from the contradictions of traditional religions, then I completely understand why, and respect it.
So to be clear, you do not see the 'universe' as an entity that is alive? ( a straight forward question - no almighty, no hereafter, no heaven, no hell)
Does philosophy have no value to you? If it does, just consider that 'facts seldon hold, good theories seldom so'. Even science has to begin with imagination, and intuition. There is no ignorance in that! Good night everyone!
"Facts seldon hold, good theories seldom so" is this part of your philosophy. No wonder its value is questionable. One way or the other, if you can't offer solid proof forget it. Your argument is still god of the gaps.
"Either way the brain of the universe (god) created us." How do you know this? All you've done is say, "I perceive the universe this way. Now I'll imagine a higher being to fit my perception." That's not proof; it's simply the god of the gaps argument contained in one long paragraph.
Chew on this one: If you do not know how God could exist you are a fool to claim God can not.
Strange as it is to you that I claimed ignorance on what is the Celestial Teapot, it's stranger still that not one of you has been able to describe it. Are not able?
@PillowhandsMcGraw
Apparently one of the moderators felt that we were off topic and deleted them. But one way or the other, I just wanted to give you fair warning. Maybe you'll get a lousy professor and a great teaching assistant. One way or the other, whatever you do, ask, ask and ask until you understand. Don't be daunted.
@robertallen1
I don't like hearing things like that lol right after my physics teacher tells me professors are nothing like teachers 'they just walk in and start talking.'
P.S. your post disappeared it said an error occured while posting and when i refreshed your comment was gone is this common?
Over_the_Edge, Epicurus, Vlatko, Achems_Razor and, of course, everyone else.
Aaron Ra was kind enough to allow me to quote his response to the e-mail I sent him on the eve his debate with banana brain.
RA: Just heard about your upcoming debate with Ray Comfort tomorrow at 7:00 p.m. PST which I now await with bated breath. I won't wish you good luck because you won't need it; however, if I may offer you a word of advice: whatever you do, please do not hold back.
AR: I was quite frustrated when Ray said his spiel about accepting Jesus or you'll burn in Hell. I had a landslide retort to that, a ten-minute high speed rant that would [have] destroyed everything he stood for. But I couldn't get to that, because the moment I started the cart rolling, they told me there was only two minutes left of the show, and that they would give him the last word.
Just thought someone might be interested.
1) On April 24, 1929, Rabbi Herbert Goldstein of New York dialed Einstein to inquire, “Do you believe in God?” (Sommerfield, 1949,103), Einstein’s return message was “ I believe in Spinoza’s God who concerns himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings , I can not accept any concept of God based on the fear of life or the fear of death or blind faith.
2) Albert Einstein's book, (The World as I See It)
"The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who knows it not and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle. It was the experience of mystery even if mixed with fear - that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man".
3) Einstein response (1936)
"every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe -- a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive". (Take note Robertalllen1)
4)Einstein-Neils Bohr
God doesn’t play dice with the universe,” Einstein once remarked on the new science of quantum mechanics in one of his lifelong debates with Neils Bohr. On another occasion he said of science and religion, “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
This is definitive proof that Einstien believed in god, just not a traditional deity(s). (christian, islam, pagan, etc) For Robertallen1, this does not compute, because he has lumped all religious views into a personal god, (simple minded thinking) which he has stated repeatedly, and all the diversions, distractions, and insults does not change the facts, which are so clearly stated. If anyone doubts the validity of what I have expressed, don't take my word for it, research it yourself. This requires effort, unlike those who only search for that which supports their own pre-conceived notion. Since I have a similiar view to that of Einstein, I understand his position, and find myself with the same dilemma he had. Trying to open people's minds to a road far less travelled, but infinitely more rewarding.
Your second and third quotes support Einstein's being a theist only if one agrees with your distorted interpretation of the word spirit to mean god and the word religion to connote traditional theism.
Several posters have apprised you of the background behind the Einstein-Bohr quote which in your efforts at distortion, you've chosen to ignore.
The two quotes I cited were both from 1954, much later than any of yours and it's particularly dishonest of you not to have included them, just as it is also dishonest of you not to have included this one from a letter to M. Berkowitz in 1950 (again much later than anything you have offered), "My position concerning God is that of AN AGNOSTIC. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and enoblement of life does not need the idea of a lawgiver who works on the basis of reward and punishment. (emphasis added)."
One way or the other, Einstein's theological beliefs are as valid as anyone else's and hence irrelevant to the existence or non-existence of a supreme being. So your quotes from authority prove nothing of any substance. I only wonder why you are so obsessed with demonstrating Einstein to be a theist.
@robertallen1. Believe it or not, I agree completely with your stand regarding the need for a "lawgiver (god)who works on the basis of reward, and punishment", and your thoughts regarding moral principles. Perhaps the only thing we disagree on is your self proclaimation of being agnostic. You refute any concept of god, as much as Richard Dawkins, yet he calls himself an athiest, and you do not. To each their own, I guess.
I simply agree with Einstein on this point.
I don't profess to know and I also don't care, but I refute the claims of those who assert knowledge of something which by definition cannot be known.
awful_truth
while i disagree with you that Einstein believed in a god what difference would it make if i conceded that argument to you? Newton was an Alchemist and a great scientist does that make Alchemy true? what actual evidence do you have for this god? who/what is this god? i can show you great/intelligent people of all faiths or no faith at all. what does that prove? do you have any actual proof or is a debatable at best argument from authority all you have?
@over the edge: The only reason I raised the issue is because the documentary states that Einstein was an athiest. (wrong) For Einstein to state that he believes in 'Spinoza'a god', and some of you still dismiss what he said, just blows me away. I didn't say Einstein believed in a personal god, which Robertallen is looped about. I didn't say that I believe in a personal god, (I don't) yet Achem, and Robertallen1 call me a religee. (talk about leaps of assumption) It is the makers of these documentaries that are attempting to justify their position with the name of a man, who didn't believe what they believe, and several of the bloggers here are supporting the same action.
All any of this proves is that even intelligent people can be so blinded by their own bias, they dismiss everything that follows the initial thought. I tried to express that Einstein's own preconceived notion about his own belief in God, prevented even him from accepting quantum mechanics, the very thing that his own theories brought about. This not just my twist on things, it is obvious to anyone who has truly studied the man. The fact that I tried to share this information with others, has been met with insults, and indignation.
So, I will leave you with this question. Is fighting good, or bad? As a mixed martial artist for over 30 years, I can tell you that it is neither. It is what motivates one to fight, that determines 'the value' of the action. Everything in life is like this. In fact, E=MC2 was a discription of the universe, not a prescription for a bomb. That is the duality of the nature of life, and the awful truth is, any belief system has value if it places people on a path that is in everyone's best interests. The second you dismiss the 'potential value' in anything, you remove the possibility of what it has to offer. (including spirituality) Something to think about! Live long, and prosper over the edge.
awful_truth
what Achem, and Robertallen1 or other bloggers state is not up to me to defend or comment on they are more than capable of defending themselves. not that you said it was my responsibility but that part of your post i will ignore and i just wanted you to know why. all i was getting at was that your posts appear to me as a argument from authority and that carries no weight with me. i do not "dismiss the 'potential value' in anything, you remove the possibility of what it has to offer. (including spirituality". what i do is give it consideration that is equal to the evidence i have been presented for it. as i do for all proposals. as of yet i have not been presented with any evidence that supernatural/spiritual claims are true except for personal testimony or you can't explain it any other way so my belief must be true. mow i do disagree on Einstein's spirituality but we have gone there before and i think we both can agree that rehashing that between us is a waste of both of our time as i can counter quote you and you can do the same.
Yes as over the edge states I certainly can fight my own battles, why are you going to a third party to voice your opinions about me? Are you scared to converse with me?
Me, blinded by bias? Don't even know what you mean by that?
Why are you putting your mixed martial arts in the picture? 30 years? wow!
You keep quoting from authority with your Einstein thing, getting old hat.
If you are not a religee, you adhere to some sort of religion, are you a deist?
Taking this to a ridiculous extreme, one could say that you are blinded by empiricism; however, I find it more accurate to term this as being blinded by enlightenment, if you'll pardon the irony.
As I stated many times, I am spiritual by nature, not religious. I do not believe in traditional forms of religion, because I don't believe god is a all powerful, all knowing entity, but I do believe in higher forms of life. (the universe is alive, and intelligent) that is as direct an answer is to what Einstein said, (Spinoza's god) but if you can't see the forest for the trees, (biased) communication is problematic at best.
@Roberttallen1
Bald faced lie? Once again. A child in the sixth grade in a Sunday School in New York City, with the encouragement of her teacher, wrote to Einstein in Princeton on 19 January I936 asking him whether scientists pray, and if so what they pray for. Einstein replied as follows on 24 January 1936:
Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the actions of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a supernatural Being.
However, it must be admitted that our actual knowledge of these laws is only imperfect and fragmentary, so that, actually, the belief in the existence of basic all-embracing laws in Nature also rests on a sort of faith. All the same this faith has been largely justified so far by the success of scientific research.
But, on the other hand, every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe -- a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive.
This is direct evidence to what Einstein believed. The last sentence of Einstein's letter is how you perceive all who have 'faith'. The awful truth is you are rude, and obnoxious towards anyone who doesn't think like you, and the only reason you get away with it, is because the administrator, and one of the moderators allow you to continue this behaviour.
You call a provable letter from Einstein a bald faced lie, because you can't handle the truth. Furthermore, I will keep calling you little bob until you learn to be civil with others who have as much right as you to express their opinion, as you do. If you can't be pleasant with others, don't expect it in return.
TopDocRocks
please see "Russels Teapot". there are too many claims made to prove their absence. the burden of proof does lay with the person making the positive claim. if we have to prove absence of evidence for every claim put forward we would never progress. i dismiss all gods due to no demonstrable evidence being shown to me of their existence. if i were to approach my dismissal on the premise you suggest i would have to look for this evidence of absence for all 28 000 000 gods that have been worshiped and i would die before proving all claims false and therefore never make a decision. but i am curious what is your position of all 28 000 000 gods? is there one you profess to be true? i get the feeling from your posts that you do believe in one but know that you cannot prove it. so you shamelessly try to shift the burden you would rightfully own. of course that is just an opinion and i am open to be told i am wrong.
And yes you are wrong. =D Any claim is a positive claim. Which is why the burden of proof is on someone who claims "there is no evidence." The statement, "There is no evidence" is a positive claim (one is claiming what "is" when one uses language like, "There IS no...). And just because it is a claim about absence does not mean it is not a positive claim. And just because it's harder to prove than "There is evidence" and more difficult because it has to avoid the fallacy "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" does not mean one is free from the burden of proof if one claims "there is no evidence." One can be more intelligent in how they make claims about the absence of evidence in order to be able to meet the burden of proof. And this is quite possible with a little more time and effort put into the communication process.
The question about the many gods is not an Atheist question. It's a Theist question. When I discuss Atheism I am a Deist [Over The Edge can you please tell everyone here what is the difference between a Deist and a Theist?]. As such I am speaking about the Creator Being. I also lean on Apophatic Theology when I approach the topic of the Creator Being as it's more gracious and honest to our limited understanding of the divine.
But no, to comment on the many gods is to make mute Atheism (because if there are many gods or one god Atheism is wrong either way).
As to proving there is a God such a notion is extremely rude and invasive. Not even the Creator Being goes about proving himself/herself/itself/themselves to people (that I've observed). And even if one were to aks the Creator Being to prove himself/herself/itself/themselves one may not be given such proof (such an act would have you actually know that the Creator Being as real...and who says the Creator Being even wants you to know him/her/it/them in the first place?). It is not for Humans to go about proving that the Creator Being exists. It is up to the Creator Being to prove such a thing (if he/she/it/they want to). That is my Deist response.
My Theist response is similar. It's not for humans to go about proving God exists. God can prove God exists all by himself/herself/itself/themselves. And it appears that is how it's supposed to be. No "Hey I'm God! You HAVE to believe in me now!" self aggrandising bullying crap. I'm currently convinced that if you really want proof, you can by all means just go and ask God for it. But be careful...sometimes one gets what they ask for. That is my Theist response.
My Atheist response is also similar. Asking a human to prove God exists is dumb. If God doesn't exist you won't get proof. And if God does exist, you're asking the wrong person.
My Anti-Theist response is a bit different. Who cares about proving God exists. Even if God is proven to exist it doesn't mean I have to like God or interact with God.
But yeah...in Atheist/Theist conversations I'm more of a Deist.
What are you Over The Edge? Deist? Theist? Atheist? Ant-Theist? Agnostic?
@TopDocRocks,
A deist... I wonder why I'm not surprised.
Vlatko, I'm sure we can agree that an Ad Hominem attack does not make one more credible, or likable.
Can you please rephrase/retract your comment "A deist...I wonder why I'm not surprised."
In its current form it is came across to me as condescending.
I may be reading it wrongly. What do you mean by it?
Why should he have to. It's one of the more intelligent comments.
"As to proving there is a God such a notion is extremely rude and invasive." What does proving the existence/non-existence of a God have to do with rudeness and what does it invade? And just what makes you think you know any more about a "Creator/Being" than anyone else, apophatic theory which is somehow more gracious (whatever this word is supposed to mean in this context) and honest to our supposedly limited understanding of the divine? As a matter of fact, can you even prove the existence of the divine--and don't even think of asserting that demanding proof is somehow inappropriate or any other such nonsense. And who do you think you are telling us that we are not to go about proving that a Creator/Being Exists?
"Asking a human to prove God exists is dumb. If God doesn't exist you won't get proof. And if God does exist, you're asking the wrong person." Where is the logic in this? As a matter of fact who is the "wrong person?"
Good feedback and questions Robertallen1.
Perhaps we can chat over email?
How do you not see the logic of "Asking a human to prove God exists is dumb. If God doesn't exist you won't get proof. And if God does exist, you're asking the wrong person." ?
The wrong person is people. We've established humans can't objectively prove the existence of a being on the scale of a Creator/God (not now at least). And that subjective proof/evidence is all one can expect to get (in ones lifetime). So spending ones life asking others for the impossible (objective proof) is dumb. And asking others to show you the subjective evidence that convinced them is also dumb as the subjective evidence that convinced them may not be the subjective evidence that will convince you (the evidence you are looking for). Better to just straight up ask the right person...namely the Creator/God himself/herself/itself/themself...for the proof/evidence you require...and hope you get it (then to run around asking the wrong prople the wrong questions).
This of course would only be a fair question to ask such a Creator/God if one actually wants the answer. Do you want to know that the Creator/God exists?
No, your statement makes no sense and no, WE haven't established anything except the patent idiocy of everything you've posited such as subjective evidence, subjective proof (whatever they are), asking God directly if he exists, searching the cosmos for evidence or lack thereof.
TopDocRocks
i will answer your questions as soon as you answer mine. can you?
I thought I had answered your question Over The Edge...apparently I didn't...I must have misunderstood it. Can you re-Iterate your question (and perhaps what you think is mine) please?
TopDocRocks
you never answered my questions you skated around them. but i will focus on only a few and omit the others. what is your position on all 28,000,000 gods that have been worshiped? do you believe in one of them? why so or why not? please do not walk around the answer as you must have an opinion on god. this isn't the first time we have had a discussion on this topic and don't seem to know who this creator is,where he is,why he created us,how he created us or can provide any way to test for his existence but you know he exists. i will try to be as clear as i can i DO NOT claim that there is no creator i am withholding judgement until evidence is presented to me that conclusively proves the claim one way or the other. in my opinion that is the only honest approach to this question. now if we are talking about the god of the many religions that have been worshiped. some i have an opinion on and others i have not studied enough to comment on. but i will say that as science discovers more and more on how the universe works there is less and less that this creator is needed. in closing you are wrong on where the burden of proof lies and if you fail to understand why i cannot help you
Haven't heard from you for a while.
Your conjecture that TopDocRocks believes in some supreme being which he can't prove seems on point. That's why I asked this poster for his position with respect to the existence of fairies--if he believes in them, provide the proof on which he bases his belief and if he doesn't, furnish a detailed log of his search and the results thereof. What's good for the goose is good for the goosed. For some reason, I'm having trouble eliciting a direct response.
P.S. How are you getting on with the Ehrman volume?
Kateye70: You and I agree. Atheism is not scientific and neither is Theism. Science is virtually mute on the matter of "god" (except to say it appears "god" is not a part of nature).
Then why were you conflating science and theism/atheism?
I'm not conflating science and theism/atheism. Logical Atheists are conflating science and atheism. A Logical Atheist claim like "There's no [scientific] evidence of a God" is a statement that conflates science and atheism. Science has no comment on the matter of "God" (except to comment that if there is a "God"/Creator such a being is probably not a part of nature as scientists can't seem to find such a being in the nature humans have explored so far...not a very scientific comment that but it's what science can at least say...and pretty much all it can say).
What is it called if I say that I see no practical evidence of a deity?
Kateye70...without you showing the evidence you've looked it it's actually called ignorance. But I think I know what you're trying to ask. And the answer to what I think you're asking is...Weak Atheism.
Aren't certain theists also conflating science and theism by claiming supernatural causes for natural phenomena as science?
Someone asserting disbelief in a supreme being because there has been no satisfactory scientific evidence uncovered so far to convince him of the existence of one is clearly implying that if compelling evidence is uncovered, he will reconsider his position; hence, he is not making a categorial denial. The only claim is lack of evidence, an unfalsifiable statement which, contrary to your "logic," does not need to be proved because it can't.
Let's not be lazy. We can do better than go around saying "I know that my point can't be proven true but I'll claim it as true anyways and ask you to prove me otherwise because that is possible for you to do (because...again...it's impossible for me to prove my point..that I'm claiming is true...that I can't prove...). "
I'm sure if we sat down and thought about it and did some digging we'd be able to actually say "Here the evidence I've found that has proven to me thus far that there is no evidence of God...and while I'm at it I'll demonstrate that I'm avoiding the fallacy of 'the absence of evidence is the evidence of absence'...and all other fallacies for that matter."
Robbertallen:
"So just where is your evidence for design and a designer or is it all in your typical creationist argument?" observational evidence
"Just how?"
"So you thought you didn't need evidence" what i said
"Just how?" below
"You understand that BELIEF and KNOWLEDGE are two very different things? you cant say you know something and that you believe it. you dont KNOW that god exists. you believe it. and I dont KNOW god doesnt exist. but the fact that you dont KNOW god exists should lead you to at least be honest with yourself and question WHY you insist on believing it is true....dont you think?" Epicrurus I detect god indirectly through the observational evidence.
"was a dead giveaway you know nothing of what you speak, you are using an "argument from ignorance" means nothing." Achems_Razor You're opinion.
A skeptic or atheist is governed by two main principles: 1) all beliefs must be supported by observational evidence, and 2) beliefs that contradict observational evidence cannot be tolerated.
hehe I have proven my claims with a simple worldview which is based upon observational evidence! . Don't throw up you're arms up in defense go test the claims! That is why this belief is so strong. The observational evidence actually leans toward the existence of God.
The Bible describes an expanding universe model.
Since our universe is characterized by cosmic expansion, it must have had a beginning. What, in nature can you think of that is simultaneously expanding and decelerating? An explosion. This was the first suggestion of what has come to be called the "Big Bang." Einstein did not like the implications of the Big Bang, which he thought implied the existence of a Creator.
The data from cosmology shows that the universe had a beginning, when space, time, matter and energy exploded out from the cosmic event known as the Big Bang.
At some point in the past, the universe was created from what has been called a singularity (or no volume). This event must require the existence of a creator, a supernatural God.
The Big Bang implies a universe which is created, therefore the need for a creator
Big Bang is evidence for intelligent design. So because we can observe God's creation u can detect God not directly but indirectly. A naturalistic cause for the origin of the universe cannot be confirmed observationally that is why that belief does not make sense to me. The prospect of finding a naturalistic cause for the origin of the universe is bleak at best, since the laws of physics indicate that we will never be able escape the bounds of our universe to even attempt to look for the cause of the universe.
"I believe the evidence for God's existence comes primarily from the design of the universe."
Conclusion: 1: My belief is supported by observational evidence
2: my belief does not contradict observational evidence
So in response to the thoughtful and knowledgable posts of Achem, Epicurus and others, we are treated to a replay of your threadbare beliefs coupled with ejaculations of your universal ignorance, the whole of your post culminating in two inane, self-serving conclusions.
You have deluded yourself into believing that piling assertion upon assertion somehow constitutes proof when in reality it doesn't even come close. I really wonder if you're an adult.
I doubt that anyone on this thread is going to be swayed by someone as dense, obtuse and generally uneducated as you. So why you're wasting your time posting your iterative walls of drivel here defies explanation.
I haven't watched this documentary yet (and I will when I have the time). But having read some posts going back and forth, my 2 cents is that Atheism is not scientific any more than Theism is scientific. And in fact "Science" supports what some Theists and certainly Western Christian Theists have been saying all along; namely that the "God"/Creator is not a part of nature.
The term "science" as I'm using it and as "Scientific" Atheists use it is actually Methodological Naturalism (which is only one aspect of the Sciences). Methodological Naturalism from the onset chose to ignore anything non-natural to make it more easy to find natural causes for nature. And look...everywhere Methodological Naturalism is applied to in attempting to find natural causes for nature it seems to have found natural causes for (and we're leaps and bounds ahead of mysticism for it...woot).
But "science" (Methodological Naturalism) cannot really comment on the "God"/Creator...except to say that it has not nor is it currently looking for a "God"/Creator (because such a thing is not a natural cause and Methodological Naturalism is excluding all non-natural causes in its search for natural causes for nature) and that if there is such a "God"/creator such a thing has not been observed via Methodological Naturalism in the natural realities that Methodological Naturalism has examined thus far.
And that is all Methodological Naturalism (aka "Science") can say about the "God"/Creator..."We have been looking for natural causes of nature and in our looking we obviously have been ignoring anything "God"/Creator related in order to help us more easily find natural causes for nature...oh by the way we've found natural causes for just about everything we've looked at and with all we've looked it we haven't accidentally discovered a "God"/Creator being, or Unicorn, or Godzilla, or Aliens, or Spaghetti monsters...etc etc...yes it's a bit laughable to say that in all our NOT looking for such things we haven't found them...but here's what we can reasonably conclude thus far; if such things were part of nature we'd probably have discovered them by now with how much of nature we've examining so far...not to say they don't exist...they might...we haven't examined all of nature yet...but it's a safe conclusion that if such things exist they're not a part of nature (not a part of the nature we know of and have examined so far at least)."
Any conclusion beyond that is not Scientific (Methodological Naturalism) and more the realm of Religious Naturalism and Philosophy and one's own Ideologies (which are what Theism and Atheism are...Ideologies...not Science).
I'm not championing Christianity or Theism. Nor am I championing Weak Atheism ("I'm not convinced there's a God") nor Strong Atheism ("There is no God and you should believe me that there isn't") nor Anti-Theism ("Religious types need to go"). I'm just championing clarification about "Science" (Methodological Naturalism) and what it has authority to comment on and what it doesn't.
My apologies if this was way off topic for this documentary. I will watch it...just haven't had the time yet.
Why not champion what you term weak atheism? Aside from antitheism, it's the most viable of the alternatives you've enunciated
Because if one wants to be a Logical Atheist/Anti-Theist it's important to base ones Atheism/Anti-Theism on real evidence above and beyond an "Appeal to Authority"...especially when the "Authority" appealed to does not even have the authority to fully comment (besides saying that what Theists have been claiming all along is evidentially accurate: "God appears to be separate and not a part of nature").
Hence my championing of Clarification (on the Authority used by Logical Atheists).
You're not making any sense. There is nothing the matter with stating that I don't believe in a supreme being because no adequate proof has been offered for the existence of one.
There's no fallacy in claiming that you don't believe in a supreme being robertallen1.
But there is a fallacy in claiming that, "no adequate proof has been offered for the existence of a supreme being."
It is a fallacy because this claim..."No adequate proof has been offered for the existence of a supreme being"...has not been proven.
That's just silly. I don't have to prove that no adequate scientific proof has been offered for the existence of a supreme being. The person asserting that a supreme being exists is responsible for providing the proof. So calling my statement a fallacy is riduculous.
The Burden of proof applies to any claim you make robertallen1. Unless you want to Appeal To Ignorance. You've claimed no adequate proof has been offered. Your claim is a claim of absence. Demonstrate that you searched, that you did not find proof, and that your evidence of absence is not absence of evidence. Otherwise be comfortable with having Appealed To Ignorance.
@TopDocRocks. Your efforts are inspiring, but are futile regarding little bob. I have provided evidence to him, Achems razor, etc regarding the spirituality of Einstein, while providing references to his own hand written documents. They continuously request proof, and when you provide it, they ignore it, and quote wikipedia like it is the 'ten commandments'.
The bottom line is there will never be proof regarding issues of faith,(that is why they call it belief) and science is incapable of answering the really interesting questions, that lie beyond the realm of the tactile. Since I believe in 'everything' I find it amusing to be able to debate with both the theists, and athiests, who have both restricted themselves to limited thinking!
Tell the truth. What you have stated about Einstein is a bald-faced lie and several posters who are far more knowledgable than you have provided the proof.
I wouldn't dignify what you do to the level of thinking.
P.S. My name is Robert.
Bald faced lie? Once again. A child in the sixth grade in a Sunday School in New York City, with the encouragement of her teacher, wrote to Einstein in Princeton on 19 January I936 asking him whether scientists pray, and if so what they pray for. Einstein replied as follows on 24 January 1936:
Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the actions of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a supernatural Being.
However, it must be admitted that our actual knowledge of these laws is only imperfect and fragmentary, so that, actually, the belief in the existence of basic all-embracing laws in Nature also rests on a sort of faith. All the same this faith has been largely justified so far by the success of scientific research.
But, on the other hand, every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe -- a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive.
This is direct evidence to what Einstein believed. The last sentence of Einstein's letter is how you perceive all who have 'faith'. The awful truth is you are rude, and obnoxious towards anyone who doesn't think like you, and the only reason you get away with it, is because the administrator, and one of the moderators allow you to continue this behaviour.
You call a provable letter from Einstein a bald faced lie, because you can't handle the truth. Furthermore, I will keep calling you little bob until you learn to be civil with others who have as much right as you to express their opinion, as you do. If you can't be pleasant with others, don't expect it in return.
Your mischaracterization Einstein as a theist has been debunked over and over again and the last sentence that you quoted does not stand for what you say it does, i.e., a feeling of religiosity is not the same as a religion or even a belief in a higher being. Time and time again, Einstein stated that he had no personal god. Even assuming that Einstein were a theist, what does it show--nothing except another asinine argument on your part from authority
P.S. Once again, my name is Robert, whether you like it or not, and as long as you continue to spew forth your religious garbage, your factual distortions and your ignorance of science, I will continue to slam you.
"But, on the other hand, every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe -- a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble."
1) A "spirit vastly superior to that of man" is a belief in a higher being. (how can you deny this?)
2) Having faith, or spirituality has nothing to do with a 'personal god'. (your conclusion) Why? look berlow.
3) "science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive." (this is in reference to people like you) who only perceive religion on the most simplistic level) Einstein's word "naive" is a bullseye.
4) Your words - assuming that Einstein were a theist, what does it show-- is an admission that you are wrong regarding referenced evidence, which is where you typically change the subject, and resort to misdirection, and insults.
5) A quote from Einstein is not me, or anyone spewing religious garbage, but is your denial of what I have been telling you all along.
6) "factual distortions", is precisely what you just did above, and the "ignorance of science" is a continuation of this distortion, because no statement of science was mentioned to begin with, so here is the science.
7) relativity - (multiple perceptions, all different, yet correct at the same time)
8) Quantum mechanics - (if there are 1000 possibilites, all possibilites play themselves out)
Conclusion: There is no right, or wrong, only choices, and for every decision we all make, there is an endless number of each of us that co-exists, living out the choices we didn't choose here. Since nothing is perfect, (broken symmetry) there only exists infinite potentiality.
(truth in everything) Since you don't understand this, your thinking is 1 dimensional, and judgemental.
The awful truth is, the only thing you are capable of slamming, is your head against the very wall of ignorance your built.
(all bark, no bite)
"It was, of course, a lie what you heard about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this, but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as science can reveal it." 1954
"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable but still prmitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." Letter to Eric Gutkind 1954.
Both of these quotes are 18 years later than yours. I wonder why you didn't provide them. Another example of your deceit.
You obviously have a problem reading. The phrase, "assuming that" is provisional or hypothetical, hence not an admission of anything or any sort. Another example of your deceit.
I am not the only one who has highlighted your attempts at deceit and your general ignorance of science, especially your attempts to abase it to the level of religion and the procrusteanism you employ in those attempts. You have been corrected so many times by those more knowledgeable than you that it's pathetic.
Hilarious how you repeat the same quote over and over, when I have provided so much more. I acknowledge the quotes you raise regarding Einstein, unlike you who call it 'bald faced lies' when statements are raised that don't agree with your ideaology. With that said, you continue to dodge the logic regarding what the science implies. (relativity, and quantum mechanics) Perhaps you should apply for a job at FOX news. As with you, they too repeat nonsense over and over, with the 'belief' that if you say it enough times, it somehow becomes fact, and everyone will believe it. (propaganda)
Since you have taken the same page out of the Joseph Goebels mindset, nothing you say surprises me, and exposes your limited knowledge regarding Einstein to anyone who actually knows anything regarding the man. For your own sake, you should hope that anyone who reads what you write doesn't make the same mistake, and decide who you are, and what you stand for, based upon 1, or 2 statements.
The American election (debates) relies on the same minutia, where people make judgements based upon singular statements.
Ultimately, your position is one of sloth, where it is easier, than actually researching to find out what you don't know, and rely on others of similiar thinking for support.
You have no idea what science implies--and from the comments of other posters, no one here is fooled by your lack of knowledge, especially regarding Einstein, and your amateur attempts at deception. As usual, you've written a wall of nothing, but it's your time.
Limited thinking? ha, that is a good one. The only thing that is etched in stone and limited thinking is the religee's insistence that the cosmos and everything in it was made (by some invisible gods) for us little tiny carbon units that have only been here as long as a flicker, as Carl Sagan said "we all are like water vapour on a glass, one swipe and we are gone" or as Feynman said "we are just too small to fathom the vastness and sheer size of the cosmos." (The sheer arrogance)!!
And right away the religee's run to use Einstein as an argument from authority. That has all been refuted numerous times.
At Achems_Razor:
Yes, refuted by you numeruous times. Out of curiosity, is your name Achems_Razor in reference to Occums_Razor, based on William of Ocham? (1285 to 1349) I just ask, wondering if you are aware of where this term originates. According to Wikipedia (your favorite source)
' His nearest pronouncement seems to be Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate [Plurality must never be posited without necessity], which occurs in his THEOLOGICAL work on the 'Sentences of Peter Lombard'. furthermore;
' Indeed, Ockham's contribution seems to be to restrict the operation of this principle in matters pertaining to MIRACLES OF GOD'S POWER: so, in the Eucharist, a plurality of miracles is possible, simply because it pleases God.
Considering the origins, and your revulsion to religion,(some of which I completely agree with) perhaps you may want to change your handle, to avoid any self contradiction. (just a suggestion, no insult intended)
@TopDocRocks,
It seems you don't make any difference between unfalsifiable and falsifiable claims.
If I make an unfalsifiable claim how on Earth you expect someone to prove me wrong? It simply can't. Never. If I make a claim that can be tested and examined the situation is different.
There is infinite number of unfalsifiable claims (God's existence is among them): unicorns, snow white, lizard aliens, spaghetti monster, etc. There is no way of testing them and proving them wrong. Does that mean we should believe all those claims? Of course not.
Do you believe in all those claims? Do you believe in the existence of celestial teapot? Of course you don't, because of the lack of evidence and the very nature of the argument which is unfalsifiable.
Therefore the burden of proof is on you to prove the existence of your God. In the meantime lot of people will not believe you.
The possible existence of a Creator of our Universe is falsifiable. And based on what definitions are agreed upon on what is considered a "God", so could said concept of such a "God" (be falsifiable).
But I am not claiming there is a God. I was asked why I don't claim there is No God. The exact question was, "Why not champion what you term weak atheism?" And I've answered that (because it's best we first champion the clarity that "science" should be avoided as an authority on "God" topics if we are to be seen as Logical Atheists).
The response to that was, "There is nothing the matter with stating that I don't believe in a supreme being because no adequate proof has been offered for the existence of one." To which I am pointing out that yes such a claim is a "matter" because such a claim is shifting the burden of proof, appealing to ignorance, and claiming that the absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
I'm not claiming there is or is not a God/Creator.
As I've said before, I'm not championing Christianity or Religion or Weak Atheism ("I'm currently convinced based on the evidence I've seen so far that there is no 'god'") or Strong Atheism ("There is no 'god' and you should believe me that there isn't") or Anti-Theism ("Religous types need to go"). I've been consistent in championing Clarity.
@TopDocRocks,
How the existence of a Creator of our Universe is falsifiable? That is the original root and error in your whole reasoning.
If your God was falsifiable it wouldn't be God in the first place. The word God would lose its meaning since it will be quantified. And only then your argument can become semi valid, because anyone asking you to prove your God existence would be using some sort of shifting the burden argument, since it can look up the evidence for himself and find out that your God is true. However, on our path to make God falsifiable we actually lost God, therefore your argument fails.
On another comment you presented an analogy with a dog's existence in a room (which is falsifiable), thus revealing the root of your error.
If your reasoning is valid then you would have to agree that all possible imaginary beings are in fact possibly true (Unicorns on Titan, Spaghetti Monsters on Mars, etc). And if you state that any of those don't exist because they're unfalsifiable, then (according to you) I would have the right to say that you're shifting the burden of proof, appealing to ignorance, and claiming that the absence of evidence is evidence of absence. That is simply illogical and not true.
P.S. You're not championing clarity. You're only presenting fallacious logic.
All those creatures including God are falsifiable. You're just making the obvious point that falsifying the existence of such things is really really hard (by asking "how?"...searching all of space and time is how...obviously very difficult to do...now...but not impossible...forever). Science doesn't say such things do not exist because Science knows that if it were to say such things do not exist it would have the burden of proof on itself to falsify the existence of such things (and again that is currently well nigh impossible for science to do right now given our understanding of how big and unknown time and space is to science right now).
So Science only says what does exist based on what science has encountered (although even the concept of existence is not entirely a settled debate within science).
The only thing science can comment on about such creatures...that science has not encountered so far...is that, "Science has not found any such things thus far in all that science has observed so far and that if such things exist either they exist in an area of space/time that science has not discovered yet or they are not a part of space/time as we currently understand space/time."
And that is my point about Science. That it can only claim that if there is such a thing as a "God"/Creator such a being is either in a region of space/time that we haven't observed yet or is not a part of space/time as we understand space/time.
Neither of these prove God exists (or does not exist).
And it's interesting to me that the comment of science that, "If a God/Creator exists and we don't discover such a being in our space/time then such a being is probably not a part of our space/time" is the same claim as Theists ("God is and never was a part of nature").
@TopDocRocks,
1. Show me how God and those creatures are falsifiable? Presuming you know what falsifiable means.
2. We are living now, and we are discussing about the present moment. At this moment God and all the imaginary beings are unfalsifiable. In future they may be falsifiable but as I can recall we are not talking about the future. This was another attempt of yours to stretch the argument even further.
3. Science won't comment on God and those creatures because at this moment they're not falsifiable, which means not testable and not able to be proven false, and are therefor outside of the scope of experimental science. Most atheist prefer not to believe in things which are outside of the scope of science. It is simple as that.
Great artistry (i.e., painting, music, literature) is outside the scope of science and yet atheists and theists alike believe in it. In fact the whole realm of the subjective is by nature outside the realm of science. The problem comes when creationists and the like try to pass off the subjective as objective.
"1. Show me how God and those creatures are falsifiable? Presuming you know what falsifiable means."
Look for them in all space/time. Fail to find them. Demonstrate you've looked and could not find them. That's how they are Falsifiable. This is well nigh impossible during our lifetime due to how vast and mysterious space/time is to us right now [This also does not mean they do not exist...only that they do not exist in the space/time that we looked for them in].
"2. We are living now, and we are discussing about the present moment. At this moment God and all the imaginary beings are unfalsifiable. In future they may be falsifiable but as I can recall we are not talking about the future. This was another attempt of yours to stretch the argument even further."
No they are not. They are only unfalsifiable if one limits oneself to Methodological Naturalism. If one opens oneself up to Religious Naturalism, Philosophy, Psychology, Mathematics, Art, Evidentialism and Experientialism one can falsify God for oneself...subjective falsification. If one desires objective and Methodological Naturalism falsification of God...that you can go about convincing your neighbors with...you most likely will not find such falsification in your lifetime.
Because it appears, as evidenced by the objective observations of Methodological Naturalism and via the subjective claims of Deists/Theists, that God is not a part of nature.
"3. Science won't comment on God and those creatures because at this moment they're not falsifiable, which means not testable and not able to be proven false, and are therefor outside of the scope of experimental science. Most atheist prefer not to believe in things which are outside of the scope of science. It is simple as that."
Correct...science will not comment on God. So let's not use science as our authority when we discuss theology (which is what the atheism/theism discussion is). Robertallen1 has a good point about Atheists believing in things which are outside of the scope of science (Thank...god?...else we'd all be like Spok...or Data **the song "You're as cold as ice" is floating through my brain**).
@TopDocRocks,
1. Falsifiable means falsifiable at this moment with the means we have now. By your reasoning all possibilities are falsifiable at one point of time. But we are talking about the now, with the means we have now. You're not being serious.
2. Subjective falsification? You're not being serious again. Falsifiability means that the hypothesis is testable by empirical experiment and thus conforms to the standards of scientific method.
3. Most atheist prefer NOT TO believe in things which are outside of the scope of science. That means they don't believe in unfalsifiable imaginary beings, which are not testable and out of scientific method.
I also made a distinction between the objective (scientific) and the subjective which you apparently missed.
How can "religious naturalism," whatever that is, philosophy (which never proved anything), psychology, mathematics and art even begin to prove or disprove the existence of a supreme being? Only science (methodical naturalism as you call it) can do this objectively--what else is there?
These things can prove the existence of a supreme being, or disprove it, subjectively.
Methodological Naturalism can "prove" it subjectively too but that's tricky and misleading and doesn't count as it's the job of Methodological Naturalism to prove things Objectively (which it can't do right now on the topic of God's existence/non-existence).
So in light of Methodological Naturalism claiming ignorance on the subject...and we not being able to live long enough until it can claim otherwise...the only evidence/proof we can rely on with regards to the existence of the Creator/God...is subjective evidence/proof.
And that's perfectly fine. Because the alternative is ignorance [which is what Methodological Naturalism offers you on the topic of the existence of the Creator/God if you lean only on it for evidentialism]).
There is no such thing as a subjective proof, much less subjective evidence.
Objective: robertallen1 made the claim "There is no such thing as subjective proof."
Subjective: robertallen1 makes some pretty bold claims.
Objective Proof: "Pandas exist. They're even in zoos to go look at."
Subjective Proof: "Bigfoot exists. I was kidnapped by some."
Objective Evidence: "Mam, your husband has been charged with murder. His fingerprints are on the murder weapon."
Subjective Evidence: "There must be a mistake, he'd never do such a thing! I've know him. He's not a murder."
Your example of subjective proof is merely a groundless assertion and not proof at all.
Your example of subjective evidence is no more than a statement of disbelief and not evidence at all.
And these are two of the ways you list to prove the existence of a supreme being?
Yes...subjective proof is not objective proof...duh.
Yes...subjective evidence is not objective evidence...duh.
I'm glad you agree that there is such a thing as subjective evidence/proof [your claim that they do not exist was just plain wrong].
And I'm glad we agree that subjective evidence and subjective proof is NOT objective evidence or objecctive proof.
I'm also glad we agree that subjective evidence and subjective proof is pretty much all we can use in proving to ourselves the existence of a Creator/God (all we can use in our lifetime that is).
We don't agree on any of this and your statements are a complete misrepresentation. You are either hopelessly dense or a congenital liar--and "duh" doesn't cut it.
P.S. You tried the same trick with Vlatko.
The concepts I'm presenting are probably new to the TDF staff and friends and most likely the reason for the "I don't get it" responses. My attempts to explain them should not be confused with trolling, lieing, trickery, etc. They are not blatantly obvious concepts: "Subjective Evidence/Proof"; "Any claim is subject to the burden of proof (even claims of absence)"; "Subjective Evidence/Proof to an individual can outweigh Objective evidence/proof"; "Methodological Naturalism, commonly shortened to the word 'science', is not an authority on the existence or non-existence of a Creator/Being"; "The claim 'there is no evidence of a Creator/Being' is the fallacy 'absence of evidence is the evidence of absence' because 1) no attempt at acquiring said evidence has taken place and 2) no attempt at avoiding the above fallacy has been demonstrated" [this claim does appeal to ignorance but is ok with that as this is an easy claim to disprove...simply show the scientific work/process done]; "Methodological Naturalism can possibly claim that if a Creator/God exists such a being probably exists outside nature...this has been the same subjective observation of Theists for millennia."
What a conceited way to cover up the unintelligibility and vacuity of your ideation. You must really have an inflated opinion of yourself to believe that you are presenting anything that the "TDF staff" is not equipped to understand--and it's laughable how you bring what you consider novelty into the picture. I suggest you conduct a Google search on delusional.
I'll repeat it again, insulting me doesn't do you any good. If you understand it then stop claiming you don't. And why not intelligently reflect upon my claim (and concepts) instead of troll.
That's the thing. All of us have intelligently reflected upon your claims and the result is the laughter and derision which you so richly deserve. If you feel insulted, you realize you have an option.
Copy/Paste your reflection about my claim robertallen1. I somehow missed it.
No, you go back through the comments.
Ok everyone let's examine what I'm about to say...
THERE ARE NO COMMENTS MADE BY ROBERTALLEN1 CONCERNING MY CLAIM (ABOUT SCIENCE AND WHAT SCIENCE CAN INFER ABOUT A CREATOR/GOD).
Question: Who has the burden of proof for this statement? Me? Or Robertallen1?
@TopDocRocks,
Science doesn't care about your God... directly. However while doing the usual everyday business it regularly stumbles upon clues that suggest that no God is needed for what we observe.
The burden of proof is always on you since you make the original claim that God exists.
"No God is needed for what we observe" that's what I've been saying. And this observation points to the nature of a Creator/God if one exists...and that is; if a Creator/God exists it doesn't exist in nature. It points to other things too...like if a Creator/God exists such a beings interaction with our space/time has not been on a fantasy/magic level and more on a...well natural level actually. There's a lot that can be inferred from such an observation. And jumping to "Well such a being just does not exist at all" is not the smartest of the inferences.
Now for the love of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens please OBESERVE that I KEEP saying "if" when I talk about what science can infer about a possible Creator/God (there again the word Possible)...and that I HAVE NOT claimed that such a being exists...AND THEREFORE I DO NOT HAVE THE BURDEN OF PROOF FOR A CLAIM I HAVE NOT MADE!!!!!!!! Man you are vexing Vlatko...I swear you are trolling me....
Talk about vexing. That's like pot calling the kettle half-baked.
And now you're trying a different tack, but it still involves lying. You never stated anything like no god is needed for what we observe.
@TopDocRocks,
If someone is trolling here, that is certainly you. Don't shift the burden again (pun intended).
Science does not care about your God. Don't you get it. It will never investigate your God because it is not falsifiable.
Edit: If you want your God investigated and proved, you'll have to do it yourself and present the evidence to others. In the meantime lot of people (in fact all people outside of your religion) will not believe in your God.
Vlatko,
FYI
As of 2005(most recent data)
approx. 88% of world's population believes in God.
This is down from 96% in 2000.
In the U.S. 95% of the population believe in God.
(Source: wiki)
Read and weep Vlatko.
Collective wisdom or mass delusion ?
@Emanouel,
Is that suppose to be a proof or something. Why should I weep? Don't be silly.
I guess you're not aware that you're making an argument from Popularity. Ask your friend @TopDocRocks. He knows that very well.
Vlatko,
When I said "read and weep" (the data), I meant it in a humorous way, given I know that you are an atheist. Didn't mean to disrespect you.
Why did you say that I am making an argument from Popularity?
I was merely reproducing data. Does reproducing data mean I am trying to make some kind of argument? I was not trying to make any argument. I simply provided some statistics and posed a question to you (which you did not care to answer).
So, I will kindly ask you again, given 88% of the global population believes in a God, in your opinion, is this collective wisdom or mass delusion?
@Emanouel,
Yes, you're making argument from popularity.
It would have been some sort of collective wisdom if all those 88% believed in one religion.
But since those 88% believe in thousands of different Gods and are persistently trying to exterminate each other, I would say they're dangerously deluded.
What an interesting thought. Suppose all the religees ended up exterminating each other--that would certainly show who was right.
Now who's being dishonest?
The study pertained to the belief in God; the study asked nothing of religious orientation.
88% of the world are not "persistently trying to exterminate each other"
Who is the truly deluded one ?
@Emanouel,
Fact 1: Those 88% believe in many different Gods, and constantly quarreling who's right and who's wrong.
Fact 2: Religious intolerance is one of the main reasons for war among nations and ethnic groups.
Fact 3: Different religions are trying to exterminate each other for centuries.
Conclusion: I doubt there is collective wisdom there.
So if enough people believe in something, there's your proof that it's right. For your information, there is no such thing as collective wisdom, but there is certainly such a thing as mass delusion and religion is a fine example.
I am really disappointed with those numbers I really thought we would have more then that. :(
I highly doubt those facts are right... I literally dont know anyone in my school that believes in god. Saying it and believing it are different. I took my first communion and I was laughing inside the whole time. Collective wisdom? from who? 95% of people in the US believe something that a couple of Arab guys wrote in a different language 2000 years ago, before science or the scientific method. Its the same thing as the Native Americans believing the sun was their god except your parents didnt tell you that when you were 3. :)
@TopDocRocks,
Now how about answering the questions we've been asking you:
1. Do you believe in a Celestial Teapot?
2. In which God, out of 28,000 do you believe?
"Subjective Proof: "Bigfoot exists. I was kidnapped by some.""
not proof.
"Subjective Evidence: "There must be a mistake, he'd never do such a thing! I've know him. He's not a murder.""
not evidence.
subjective opinions are not evidences or proofs.
Objective: robertallen1 made the claim "There is no such thing as subjective proof."
Subjective: robertallen1 makes some pretty bold claims.
Objective Proof: "Pandas exist. They're even in zoos to go look at."
Subjective Proof: "Bigfoot exists. I was kidnapped by some."
Objective Evidence: "Mam, your husband has been charged with murder. His fingerprints are on the murder weapon."
Subjective Evidence: "There must be a mistake, he'd never do such a thing! I've know him. He's not a murder."
Everything about this is totally wrong. What planet are you on dude? Srsly.
I also don't believe in fairies because no adequate proof has been offered. Do I have to prove that there is no adequate proof? As idiotic as evidence of absence . . .
Yes you do. You need to show the evidence for your claim that there is an absence of evidence of fairies. So that the absence of evidence of fairies (you looked for evidence of fairies but couldn't find any) is actually evidence of absence (and so therefore there really are no fairies) and not merely absence of evidence (but you might have missed something in your searching and calculations).
The context here is "Burden of Proof" (not scientific proof...I'd be really impressed of someone were to use the comments section of TDF to scientifically prove something).
You aren't enlightening anyone if you simply expect others to take your word for it that there is no evidence of fairies. And I know you know this as I haven't seen you appeal to yourself as an authority on anything yet with a "trust me" style claim.
A good reason it's important for you to show how and why you are convinced that there is no evidence of fairies is not just so your claim has more validity but also so that others can connect the dots for themselves (like you have).
And that is the best you can do...simply show why you are convinced that there is no evidence. To try and claim you have a grasp of truth above and beyond what you're currently convinced of (that there is no evidence of fairies) is to cross over into actual scientific research on the subject and to go through the entire scientific process of searching for evidence of fairies (and I highly doubt anyone is using the comments section of TDF to do that).
Just because it is difficult to prove (philosophically scientifically or otherwise) that there is an absence of evidence (because absence of evidence doesn't automatically mean evidence of absence) doesn't mean you are free from the burden of proof when you claim there is absence of evidence.
And you know this. Which is why you back up your claim of "absence of evidence" instead of simply expecting us to take your word for it.
Unfortunately appealing to ignorance with, "Well prove that fairies exist if I'm wrong" doesn't actually back up your claim that there is an absence of evidence for fairies.
What would back up your claim (that there is evidence of an absence of evidence) is expressing what you've done to look for said evidence, that you didn't find any evidence (with your evidence of such a "finding" of no findings), and why your findings are not merely an absence of evidence (demonstrate that you've covered all the angles and haven't missed anything).
In your first post, you said:
"I haven't watched this documentary yet...[but] my 2 cents is that Atheism is not scientific any more than Theism is scientific."
So,
1. You haven't watched the documentary yet and therefore have no knowledge of its content.
2. You are claiming that both belief and lack of belief in a deity are unscientific in nature.
Is that the TL;DR?
1. Correct...my comment is not about this documentary...and I've pre-apologized if the topic of my comment is mis-posted.
2. No...I'm claiming that an appeal to "science" (Methodological Naturalism) as an athority on the existence or non-existence of a Creator/God is a fallacy. I've explained why...but in short it's this: Science doesn't make claims about what doesn't exist (currently...due to our lack of ability to effectively prove such claims at this time). And because "science" can't falsify the existence of a Creator/God being right now it has to stay ignorance/silent on such an issue (the issue of the existence of a Creator/God being) until it can. In the mean time it can say, based on it's observations of what it real and does exist, that if such a being exists such a being is probably not part of nature (as science currently understands nature). And it is most likey this observation that has led Atheists to jump to the conclusion that such a being must not exist at all. But such a conclusion both is a jump to make (because a Creator/God could exist in a part of time/space that we have not observed yet or could exist outside of time/space altogether...the latter being most probable due to the supernatural qualities a Creator/God would most likely need to have in order to qualify as the Creator) and is also not a scientific claim.
Cut to the chase. Just how do you propose determining whether this entity exists--and a direct answer, please.
P.S. You still haven't answered anyone's questions, such as whether you believe in fairies and if you do, prove their existence and if you don't, explain why and provide proof that they don't--is it that you can't practice what you preach? Is it that you can't write around this question or those posited by Over the Edge?
I'm not sure about fairies. I haven't investigated the evidence.
Whatever point you're trying to make about Fairies perhaps try and make it differently robertallen1.
To determine for yourself if this entity exists...ask Him/Her/It/Them for "proof."
If such an entity exists...it's a totally fair and reasonable request. We're talking about a very plausible cause agent for the origin of the Universe...not a made up "spaghetti monster." And a cause agent that would have the powers to comprehend your request for proof and give it. If it created the universe, it can't be that big a deal to grant your request that it prove its existence to you robertallen1.
And quite realistically that's probably the most acute way of acquiring the subjective "proof" you are looking for (but again sorry no objective proof...not in your lifetime).
If you actually want such subjective proof that is. Be aware that subjective proof is more exacting than objective truth. One can always ignore objective proof. Do you want subjective proof of the existence of the Creator/God robertallen1?
No shame in saying no.
@TopDocRocks:
lol, For chr1st sakes! what is with all the double talk, as the still great Jack Nicholson said,..."people that talk in metaphors oughta' shampoo my crotch"!
Achems_Razor has joined the conversation...what is it you're finding difficult to follow? Ask away....
@TopDocRocks,
Do you actually read what you write?
"You need to show the evidence for your claim that there is an absence of evidence of fairies."
The fact that there is no evidence is the very evidence for absence of evidence.
You're actually looking for evidence for the absence of evidence? What about the absence of evidence for the absence of evidence? Or evidence for the absence of evidence for the very absence of evidence? We can go even further with this Reductio ad absurdum.
No it's not a fact Vlatko. What you just said there, "the fact that there is no evidence is the very evidence for absence of evidence" is a fallacy. Here is the fact about absence of evidence...allow me to quote Wikipedia (a common source that we can all easily find); "Evidence of absence is evidence of any kind that suggests something is missing or that it does not exist. Evidence of this kind is not to be confused with mere ignorance, and the traditional axiom warns that 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.' "
In order to progress out of the fallacy "The absence of evidence for Fairies is the evidence that Fairies are absent" it must be shown that and how one has looked for Fairies; that and how one has looked for evidence; that and how one has not found evidence, and that and how one has avoided as much as possible the fallacy "absence of evidence is evidence of absence."
Robertallen1 has not yet communicated to us in this conversation that he has or how he has looked for evidence of Fairies. Therefore he still stands guilty of the fallacy "absence of evidence is evidence of absence." He has also used as evidence for his claim the fallacy of "Appeal to Ignorance" in requesting me to prove him wrong if in fact he is wrong. That's two fallacies.
If Fairies really do not exist one must show how they really do not exist. And not commit the double fallacy of "there's no evidence of fairies...prove there's fairies if I'm wrong."
If there really is no evidence of Fairies one should be able to easily show that there is no evidence.
No?
The answer is no.
It isn't easy to show that there is no evidence of Fairies. This is very difficult to do. But yet all too often we've become lazy and instead of doing our homework on how to communicate something that doesn't exist really doesn't exist, we instead switch the burden of proof with an appeal to ignorance and ask others to prove us wrong. Everyone knows that is an easier task...showing evidence of something vs showing evidence that something isn't there (and certainly it's easier for us who believe there is no evidence of Fairies). But homework or none...the burden of proof still lies with us to show that there is no evidence (if we go about making such a claim). This is why Scientists don't go about trying to prove things don't exist vs proving that things that do exist actually exist...it's just way to much energy and time to go about proving things don't exist.
It can be done though. And my challenge to Robetallen1 and anyone who wants to take up this challenge is to show how there really is no evidence of Fairies. Let's establish to all readers how to communicate that we have avoided the fallacy "absence of evidence is evidence of absence."
@TopDocRocks,
You didn't show how God or Fairies are falsifiable at this moment. That is the starting point of you assumptions, which is fallacious. If something is not falsifiable, there is no way to gather evidence for its existence or non existence anyway, therefore your argument "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is not usable.
You're turning upside down the argument of shifting the burden of proof. Just double-shift it and hope to get away with it. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. It doesn't because I don't originally make the claim the Fairies don't exist. Don't forget that the original claim is that they do exist and I simply don't agree with that because at this moment they're not falsifiable, and therefore no evidence can be extrapolated for their existence.
As I've said your main error is that you assume that Fairies are falsifiable, but they're not. You've tried to remedy that with one false analogy about a non existent dog in a room, and when that failed you've tried to escape by saying that Fairies might be falsifiable in future. Plus the Reductio ad absurdum fallacy if your opponent just decides to triple-shift the burden of proof.
Sorry but those are massive errors. As if you struggle to reinvent the basic logic.
Vlatko you do realize that we are saying the same thing right?
That the Creator/God is not falsifiable (not now at least) and therefore it is stupid for "science" to make any claims about such a beings existence (currently)...that it either exists or does not exist...because the claim of of it's existence or the claim of non-existence are both scientifically unfalsifiable claims (right now)?
Let's agree to agree.
@TopDocRocks,
No we are not saying the same thing. You struggle to reinvent basic logic. The argument is very simple:
Deist: There is God.
Atheist: Prove it.
Deist: I can't, it is not falsifiable. It is subjective.
Atheist: If that is the case I don't believe in your God. There is no evidence therefore it doesn't exist.
Vlatko: A God being is not falsifiable.
TopDocRocks: A God being is not falsifiable now.
How are we in disagreement?
Deist: There is God.
Atheist: Prove it.
Deist: I can't, it is not falsifiable. It is subjective.
Atheist: If that is the case I don't believe in your God. There is no evidence therefore it doesn't exist.
Deist: Good. I wouldn't want you to take my word for it. Find your own subjective evidence.
How are we in disagreement?
@TopDocRocks,
We are talking about what is falsifiable now, not what it will be. We are arguing now at this moment. We are not in a time warp.
You want me to find my own "subjective evidence" for YOUR God that YOU claim to be true.
Subjective evidence is not verifiable by a third party, therefore it is only an opinion (knowledge as conditioned by personal mental characteristics or states).
The conversation is again simple. You don't need the last line (that you've added just for the sake of arguing).
Deist: There is God.
Atheist: Prove it.
Deist: I can't, it is not falsifiable. It is subjective.
Atheist: If that is the case I don't believe in your God. There is no evidence therefore it doesn't exist.
Yes Yes...like I've agreed with everyone else on here and now you too Vlatko...subjective evidence is not objective evidence.
Anyone disagree with that? Everyone (Sarcastic_Drew, Epicurus, Over The Edge, robertallen1, Achems_Razor, Vlatko) seems to think that needs to be made clear. Anyone not clear on that? Subjective evidence is NOT objective evidence.
@TopDocRocks,
Nope you're twisting the words. Here is what I've said:
Subjective evidence is not evidence of any kind at all. It is only an opinion (knowledge as conditioned by personal mental characteristics or states).
Evidence that is subjective is evidence to the person who holds such evidence. The person kidnapped by bigfoot has lots of evidence that bigfoot exists (evidence for them that is). It's not objective evidence. But it is evidence. No, you are wrong. Evidence that is subjective (subjective evidence) is evidence. The subjective evidence of the kidnapped convinces them without any doubt that bigfoot exists. It is evidence. It is just not objective evidence. We agree: evidence that is subjective is not objective evidence [if you insist we disagree than you are wrong...evidence that is subjective is evidence of a kind...using your own words...I've simply clarified what kind it is not...that being...it is not Objective evidence].
@TopDocRocks,
No we don't agree. I don't know why are you repeating that all the time. It won't help you to win the argument.
You say subjective evidence is only evidence to the person who holds such evidence. But that is argument from personal experience. And indeed your "subjective evidence" is personal experience, an anecdote, an opinion.
Ahhh... I don't know why I even bother. This conversation is futile.
So don't bother. You're rude.
Your rude? you say to Vlatko, I presume you are male, if so why don't you grow a pair? If you are female...or? then you are forgiven by default.
Speaking of rude, a good thing there isn't many females reading your last blog. Hey, don't sweat it though, here is some really rude comments, just in the last hour from one guy.
1) That's the thing. All of us have intelligently reflected upon your claims and the result is the laughter and derision which you so richly deserve. If you feel insulted, you realize you have an option. - Robertallen1
2) Not only are you delusional, but you support the concept of being delusional.
Robertallen1
3) That you're a deluded fool for one thing.
Robertallen1
4) We don't agree on any of this and your statements are a complete misrepresentation. You are either hopelessly dense or a congenital liar--and "duh" doesn't cut it.
Is this the "primary importance of moral principles" you were describing to me? (In one word - hipocracy)
What do females have to do with it? And the correct spelling is hypocrisy.
@awful_truth,
True, that is from the last hour or so, which means after your "friend" @TopDocRocks heated the atmosphere. In other words your friend was heavily trolling - trying to provoke an emotional response from the crowd, and he succeeded.
Vlatko you said you were not trying to troll me....
@Vlatko -Come on Vlatko, really? Take a look over the last month, and you will find this to be Robertallen1's norm. Furthermore, I don't know TopDocRocks from any of you. You could all be friend, or foe, regardless of religious ideology. (or lack there of) Am I to believe that the only 'friends' you have are those who don't have a potential for spirituality?
What does your last question have to do with anything?
@TopDocRocks,
Maybe, but what else is left when you refuse to consider basic logic. You're going on in circles, inventing definitions that don't exist, plastering strawman all the time. It is just annoying.
Yes we agree: "And indeed your 'subjective evidence' is personal experience, an anecdote, an opinion." That is no different than: "subjective evidence" is not objective evidence.
"Evidence in its broadest sense includes everything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion." Wikipedia-Evidence
This is why subjective evidence is evidence for the individual that has it. The person kidnapped by Bigfoot can make the assertion "It was a dream" or "It was a delusion" or "It was a prank" or "it really happened" and/or "Bigfoot are real." Each of these assertions will be weighed against the evidence the kidnap victim was exposed to. All the evidence in the experience is objective to the kidnap victim. But it becomes subjective to the hearers that the kidnap victim tells the experience to. The most plausible assertion can be determined (both by the victim and with the help of others). But it will be up to the victim to decide for themselves which assertion they will believe is most accurate. And without objective evidence this decision is subjective.
This "subjective" experience (which results in subjective evidence to us who didn't experience the same event) doesn't mean that the victim did not experience it, or that the victim can't have proof for themselves, or that it didn't happen, or that the victim can't claim they have evidence that convinces them (subjective evidence), or that the evidence the victim experienced is not evidence of any kind. It is most definitely evidence of a kind...of a kind that will most likely make a believer in Bigfoot out of the victim...but sadly that can not make a believer out of us who lack that experience.
Subjective Evidence/Experiential Evidence...it's similar...and valid, real, and true for the person experiencing it
@TopDocRocks,
So you agree that 'subjective evidence' is personal experience, an anecdote, an opinion. Good, we've established that.
Now to continue with the circle. If we follow the line of your reasoning then you have to admit that your God exists only in YOUR subjective realm and you can't prove it outside of it.
If that is the case it is not falsifiable, except if you invent another term here (subjective falsifiability), which will of course mean nothing.
Therefore, an atheist, and pretty much everyone else outside of your religion, will not believe in your God for the reasons outlined above.
Now, please answer this question: Do you believe in Celestial Teapot?
What are you trying to prove to me Vlatko?
Just tell me what you hope to convince me of. Then try to convince me of it.
I'm not doing the "you're Jesus and I'm your disciple...ask me lots of questions until I get it" thing.
Otherwise I'm afraid I have to admit I'm not on the same page as you. I was trying to discuss the "What science observes about God...or can infer by what it has not observed" page.
But I might switch to your page if you clarify what that page is (seeing as no one wants to be nice and talk about the page I want to discuss...arg...perhaps I'll be the nice guy and talk about the page they want to discuss).
What are you trying to convince me of Vlatko?
@TopDocRocks,
Of course I'll not convince you of anything. How do you expect me to convince you on a comment board. You're already convinced, there is nothing much I can do about it.
We are still on the same page. Can you answer the question: Do you believe in Celestial Teapot?
If you don't have the confidence or skill to claim what it is you intend to convince me of then stop pretending like you have something worth saying. Man up with your intentions now. Or go back to the drawingboard and get back to me when you can.
@TopDocRocks,
Now you're rude. Confidence, skill... Jesus.
I want to hear your answer about the Celestial Teapot and compare it to what we were arguing so far about your God.
TopDocRocks
i will try again. since we both referred to "Russel's Teapot" in previous posts i will assume we agree on it's premise (correct me if i am wrong). quote from Bertrand Russell "if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense." do we agree? but unless science changes its core tenants of finding natural causes/explanations for natural phenomena and if it shifted its concern to the supernatural why bother calling it science? do you agree? does this designer/creator have any testable demonstrable manifestations within the areas we are at the present able to test? if so what are they if not how do i go about gathering demonstrable proof? i agree that someone who has experienced god/bigfoot/aliens and so on honestly believes it and they may be right. but that is not anything i can base a conclusion on. people have honestly experienced a multitude of gods (by definition of many gods there is only one) most of these claims seem to be made by otherwise intelligent sane people. so how am i to decide based on the subjective? how am i to test every claim made by billions of people throughout history? the approach i have taken is to not believe any of them til they provide something i can actually test for myself. i will even go as far to say that i feel that many of the posters here agree with me in stating." i do not claim that a creator/designer does not exist only that it has not been sufficiently demonstrated that one does". also the explanations that i have been given for many questions of the origins of the universe/life/everything does not require a creator. if someone gives me a religious creator then (if it is a religion i am familiar enough with) i will make claims. i do not make the argument of "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" only that "absence of evidence is absence of evidence".
But you're being sensible. Now, watch old TopDoc either skirt your questions, avoid them altogether, try to jibber-jabber them away or lay on you some new onus which just happens to pop into his "mind."
Why do you even believe in a god? and as over the edge stated which of the 28 000 000 gods do you believe in?
What are you getting at PillowhandsMcgraw? State your intent.
I have no intent, but would like to know which god you chose to worship and why that particular one over the others as there is many choices, i feel overwhelmed thinking off all the gods that are out there.
If you have no intent...move along.
@TopDocRocks,
Why should he move along? He asked you a simple question and he explained why he is asking that.
Being rude again?
Thank you vlatko. nice to see civility on a side note thanks much for the great docus, and even more for your comments. I came to this site for docus specifically but i spend more time reading the comments. lol.
The civility is fleeting. But don't take my word for it. Experience things for yourself. And make your own conclusions. I received no such welcome. You are lucky.
I've been trying to discuss my recent 2+2 that "Science" (real name is Methodological Naturalism) can infer that the Creator/God is not a part of nature (which gives us insight into the nature of a being the likes of a Creator/God...namely that such a being is not part of nature...and probably couldn't be?).
I currently feel jaded due to some of the unkind and unwelcoming behavior/comments from the TDF staff and some of their friends. Your question is ill timed. Perhaps if you will open up and share what God you believe in/prefer I'd open up too.
Welcome to TDF. Despite the drama the docs are good.
Why is it so important to you to know "what God he believes in?" You don't even know him and you're already asking him something highly personal. If he wants you to know he'll tell you. Now, that's rude.
What a nice double standard robertallen1...PillowhandsMcgraw can ask me "What God" I believe in...that's not rude...but when I ask PillowhandsMcgraw the same question (that PillowhandsMcgraw asked me first) MY question is rude?
Come on robertallen1...hide your hate on for me a little better.
Let's get this straight. Pillowhands asked you about statements you had made. On the other hand, you asked him what god he believed in which, considering he had made no statements about a deity, seemed awfully nosey AND RUDE!
Yes let's get this straight:
PillowhandsMcgraw - "and as over the edge stated which of the 28 000 000 gods do you believe in?"
robertallen1 - "Why is it so important to you to know "what God he believes in?" You don't even know him and you're already asking him something highly personal. If he wants you to know he'll tell you. Now, that's rude."
There you have it PillowhandsMcgraw, robertallen1 says you were rude to me by asking "what god he believes in." But I don't care. i didn't think your question was rude PillowhandsMcgraw. It was just ill timed. You can see the kind of Trolling I've been dealing with. My walls were up. You're cool PillowhandsMcgraw.
Crying the blues to a new poster. Running to him with your pululations, trying to get him on your side.
Pillowhands, let me apologize to you for TopDocRocks, he simply hasn't grown up.
robertallen1...say that to my face =D
I already have.
Noob.
I do not believe in any god but I was still willing to hear what you had to say or your experience that brought you to that conclusion.
By the way my two cents IF god existed wouldn't you expect to see him in all of nature. I mean he is omnipresent.
Good question PillowhandsMcgraw...and this would be expected of something that is of nature. But something that is not of nature...and responsible for having created nature...could nature even contain such a thing? Is it logical to expect a being that created time/space...to exist within time/space? Is it logical for a computer designer...to live in the motherboard and programing. To the computer the computer designer could be omnipresent...but the computer would never "see" the designer (uber bad analogy...don't flame me for it).
And perhaps the omnipresence of the Creator/God IS space?
Omnipresence...how is the expressed?
Good question PillowhandsMcgraw.
yaaa.. pretty bad analogy lol.
And perhaps the omnipresence of the Creator/God IS space?
I can't really argue that point I mean if there were a god it should be expected but it is all really just subjective opinions and that's what it all comes down to.
P.S. i find the idea of an omnipresent god pretty creepy..
And what would a sensitive to your notion that an omnipresent God is creepy do?
Probably not show you he/she/it/they/them are everywhere? No?
Is that not what "Science" is observing? No god everywhere?
Seems that would be one way to avoid everyone thinking it's creepy....
"And what would a sensitive to your notion that an omnipresent God is creepy do?" That not only sounds creepy, it's unintelligible.
There seems a lot you don't grasp robertallen1. No shame in that. But weird to portray such a grasp on truth and yet often find simple things so unintelligible.
And judging from that unintelligible sentence, a lot you don't either.
And omnipotence and omniscience don't have much going for them either. Do you think God can trisect an angle using just compass and straightedge? Do you think God has the proof of the Goldbach conjecture in his mind?
They have nothing going for them.. and hey you never know with the right straight edge.. lol the things you could come up with. Does he know how many sides to a circle?
And what about omnibenevolence and the atrocities he people to commit. This site has opened my eyes to the bible and the twisted logic needed to believe such claims as fact.
I bet a Moebus band would simply floor him.
You're off to a good start. Please keep posting regularly.
I surely will as i am on here close to everyday. I will now bid you adieu as it is getting late hope to see you all another day.
Have a good night. Don't believe Fallacies. Cheers.
Depending on the strength of the Mobius Strip (not sure what is a Moebus band) and if it is sufficiently snagged on to a floor surface it is quite possible to be floored by one if stepped into wrongly.
Well good on you for believing propaganda.
@Pillowhands,
Yeah, a omnipresent god would be a horny voyeuristic Mother f*****, imagine, psycho gods in all the bedrooms of the world, sees how all the other sentient beings in this and other universes, dimensions, realities, multiverses, do it?
Being omniscient, god really doesn't need to--so maybe he is horny and voyeuristic after all.
He might like Uranus
Vlatko are you trying to troll me into responding to you or others in such a way so as to justify banning me or someting similar?
@TopDocRocks,
You're being rude again. No I have no such intentions.
@PillowhandsMcgraw explained why he is asking the question and so did I (but I still didn't get the answer). There is no reason to command him to move along.
Wow. ok. Tried being polite i was really just curious as to why you chose your god, that didn't work.. never going to do that again.
When I get an answer to why there is no evidence of God from robertallen1, or what is Vlatko's intention, or even some actual comments to my claim about what science can infer about the Creator/God (and not trolling)...perhaps I'll be more interested in answering your question. But for me to just up and answer it...well that's just not fair at this point.
I had absolutely no contact with them previous how do you know I feel the same way perhaps we could have had a valid discussion but you've thrown that out the window.
Don't feel daunted. Full speed ahead. Give him a broadside.
How many times do you have to be told not order others about?
Perhaps it's a committee.
Subjective Evidence/Experiential Evidence...it's similar...and valid, real, and true for the person experiencing it
So very, very wrong. Experimental evidence can be observed by others and tested again by others. Subjective evidence doesn't even exist let alone placing it on the same level as experimental evidence.
RIght you are.
P.S. Where did you get your monniker?
From a show called American Dad.. funny show he's a hobo who wrestles for food with pillows for hands. lol. By the way how long have you been posting on the site i see alot of robertallen?
P.S. I'm a new poster but I've been watching docus and reading posts for awhile now finally decided it was time to start engaging as i share the same views as a lot of the regular posters of the site.
It's like a bad habit or even worse, a drug.
Anyway, let me be the first to welcome you. Would you mind informing us of your areas of interest or specialties, education, etc.
Thank you for the welcoming,I'm 21 I'd say for the past 2 years or so my only interest is science really anything to do with it but i thoroughly enjoy QM above all. I'm actually going back to school taking physics i just finished precal so i can hopefully go to university. I just had no idea what I wanted to do in high school and when I finished I took a year off to search I guess would be the term and ya fell in love with physics.
Fine. Now you know what you want to do and I wish you the best in your study of physics. By precal, I assume you mean precalculus. Are you planning to go further in your mathematical studies?
@PillowhandsMcgraw:
Good for you, a scientist and QM proponent, don't take heed to @topdocrocks asking you what gods you believe in, you do "not" need to believe in any gods, and none of his business anyway.
Welcome to TDF.
There is no objective evidence for the existence of "God."
Even the most religious will admit this. You should too.
But there is nothing wrong with faith. Faith is part of the human experience; a part of the human condition. Do we not have faith that we will live long, healthy lives? We cannot prove we will live long, healthy lives but we have faith that we will and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
"There is no objective evidence for the existence of 'god'" is a claim of absence. It is subject to the burden of proof. "Even the most religious will admit this" does not meet the burden of proof as this is the appeal to popular opinion fallacy. The burden of proof remains on you to support your claim of absence (of evidence). Where was the search for this evidence done? How was it done? When was it done? Who did the search? Why was the search done? How do we know we didn't miss anything? How was the evidence of no evidence demonstrated so as to avoid the fallacy "absence of evidence is evidence of absence"? Where were the scientific findings of such a search published? Where can I get a copy of such published findings so I can examine it for myself?
Is your claim even a scientific claim?
I think it is quite reasonable to assume that, during past millenia, man has searched for objective evidence for the existence of "God."
Further, if any objective evidence had been uncovered, I'm sure we would all have been made aware of it.
Ok...it's your assumption. Wanted to clear that up. Thought you were trying to state a Scientific claim/fact .
If you were lucky to have followed what I've been saying (before Achems_Razor censored a good portion of my comments out) you'd have seen that I have been pointing out something similar. I can not claim it is scientific to state "there is no objective evidence for God" (I've pointed out why with my last post to you). But I can claim it's reasonable for "science" to point out that if a Creator/God exists it most likely does not exist in nature (something Theists have been subjectively observing for millenia).
This is quite interesting as if this claim is accurate (that "science" can say this) it is objective evidence of the nature of God (not of the existence of God...only about what KIND of being a Creator/God would be...a non-natural being). Very interesting. Interesting that "Science" can comment on the nature of a Creator/God without being able to comment on the existence of such a being. But this is not new for "science." This happens all the time in Crypto Zoology (evidence of the nature of an animal before science can claim it exists). Very interesting to me.
@TopDocRocks,
Cryptozoology is not a recognized discipline of science. It is an example of pseudoscience because it relies heavily upon anecdotal evidence, stories and alleged sightings. - Wiki
Cryptozoology pretty much resembles your arguments.
So you rely on a pseudoscience for your "information." Why is it I'm not surprised.
I find it interesting like you, but it is speculation nonetheless?
Well of course it's speculation.
@TopDocRocks,
You make the claim that God exists, not the other side. Remember the conversation. Stick to it. Don't pretend that people deny your God out of blue. You make the claim, others follow:
Deist: There is God.
Atheist: I don't believe that. Prove it.
Deist: I can't, it is not falsifiable. It is subjective. I have no objective evidence. I only have personal experience and opinion. You might want to search for your own personal experience and opinion and find God for yourself.
Atheist: Nah, I need objective empirical evidence. That is what I trust the most. Therefore I will not believe in your God. There is no evidence therefore it doesn't exist.
@Vlatko: There is another side to that coin.
Athiest: there is no god.
Deist. I don't believe that, prove it.
Athiest: I can't, because it is an issue of faith, and beyond the realm of scientific proof.
Deist: Then don't speak of certainty regarding issues that extend beyond your self limiting explanations.
Any questions???
@awful_truth,
There is no other side. Atheists do not make the original claim, therefore your argument is fallacious.
If you didn't say there is God in the first place, I couldn't say that there is none. Simple, isn't it.
"No Atheists claim there is no God."
Let me put your back up against a wall and see if your claim still holds Vlatko (see how I stated my intent right then and there?): Vlatko is there a God?
@TopDocRocks,
Yes, you've stated the intent that you're about to troll again. Anyhow the answer to your question is: I don't know. (see how I answered your question immediately without whining... unlike you).
Now, do you believe in Celestial Teapot?
I don't know what is a Celestial Teapot. Who I am to say if it exists or not even if I knew what it was? I have to claim ignorance...just like Vlatko.
Unlike you Vlatko I HAVE stated my intent. You have not stated yours (except to answer that you are not trolling me). Why are you asking me these questions and all that Vlatko?
State again if you already have (I probably missed it).
What is your intent with your questioning me?
@TopDocRocks,
I've stated my intent (You should keep up with the comments. It is apparent that you miss lot of the stuff).
Here it is again: I want to hear your answer about the Celestial Teapot and compare it to what we were arguing so far about your God.
However, since you've answered the question, I must continue my investigation with further questions: Why do you claim ignorance about the Celestial Teapot?
yes...too many comments happen before I can finish what I've written.
I'm lost...what were we arguing about the supposed God you claim I have?
The great philosopher and theologian does not know what a celestial teapot is. The great philosopher and theological can't look it up. The great philosopher and theologian indicates that even if he know what it was he has no idea if it exists. The great philosopher and theologian is obviously unsure if anything exists whether he's heard of it or not. Did it ever occur to the great philosopher and theologician that such a thought-provoking statement might be Vlatko's intent in questioning the great philosopher and theologian?
Vlatko can state his definition of a celestial teapot for me well enough. Stop trolling and stop being rude robertallen1.
Once again, stop ordering people around. You claim to be such a philosopher and you don't know about Russell's Celestial Teapot. Says a lot about you.
@robertallen1,
I was about to say that, but I didn't want to hurt his feelings. It was not my intention to discover if he knows what Celestial Teapot is, but I was shocked when I heard the answer. For someone who throws around philosophical arguments it is very strange to not know such a basic thing. He didn't even look it up, which implies lots of other things.
And according to Over_the_Edge, he posted a link to it.
P.S. I don't care about hurting his feelings.
Vlatko
what i find most strange is he/she posted a link to it 23 hours ago
@over the edge,
Did he? That is even more bizarre.
I was just mentioning your observation to Vlatko. Maybe it has something to do with subjective evidence, subjective proof and subjective examination.
TopDocRocks
you state "I don't know what is a Celestial Teapot. Who I am to say if it exists or not even if I knew what it was? I have to claim ignorance." i referred you to it and you posted a link to it (Russel's Teapot) . how can you claim not to know what it is?
I did not state the intent to Troll. I stated my intent to test your claim. HUGE difference there Vlatko.
BTW Vlatko...why have you repeatedly calimed that I'm trolling? What is your intention in doing that?
Vlatko and others write you the same things over and over again and you either don't comprehend or distort what they write into strawmen.
Give one example robertallen1.
I'll give you scads of them--just about every one of their goddam posts!
Just one will do...go on.
I have one. Does a modern day atheist state there is no god?
Well put Aweful_Truth.
@TopDocRocks,
Now you're being funny.
Consider this: If you don't make a claim that God exists in the first place, then how can someone make a claim that God doesn't exist.
It would be like showing up on the street one day, out of the blue and shouting: I don't believe that Blue Dwarfs exist on Jupiter.
And then the dialogue goes like this:
Q: Why don't you believe Blue Dwarfs (sic) exist on Jupiter?
A: Because there is no convincing evidence that they do.
Q: Can you prove that there is no convincing evidence that they do. Have you searched high and low through the cosmos to prove that there is no convincing evidence. After all, if you assert, you must prove, even if it's an unfalsifiable negative.
@robertallen1,
Hahaha... right. What a strange worldview. Annoying I must say.
With a view like that, it's amazing that he can even go to the toilet.
Good answer robertallen1. Don't be that guy trying to claim an "unfalsifiable negative" as true.
You're seriously asking me if I don't make a claim that God exists in the first place then how can you claim that God doesn't exist? That's my point!!! I never claimed God exists...so why claim God doesn't?
@TopDocRocks,
We'll that is a whole different situation. I thought you're deist if I'm not wrong.
If I'm trying to convince an Atheist of a God then I do so as a Deist. But I'm NOT trying to convince any of you that there is a God. I wasn't clear enough back then about my answer to Over The Edge. In an Atheist dialogue I start neutral. And am very interested to know why Atheism is correct. I go into the Atheist dialogue with the attitude "convince me Atheism is correct." And I expect this convincing to happen. My "devil's advocate" response doesn't mean I'm trying to convince the Atheist to become deist. It's just my way to weed out Fallacies and test claims. And yes my bias is Deism (I am not an Atheist...yet...if I was I wouldn't be asking Atheists to try and convert me). But I'm not interested in converting Atheists to Deism. Yes I sometime like to point out why I like Deism. But on this doc page I'm interested in Atheists avoiding Rhetological fallacies. Because I'm tired of hearing subjective claims propositioned as "scientific" claims, and seeing Rhetological Fallacies used to back up Atheism. Even if I never become an Atheist, I will still strive to have Logical Atheists (which is the branch of Atheism you TDF Atheists claim to be) be smart and logical, avoiding all Rhetological fallacies.
And this from someone who claims to have never heard of Russell's Teapot but posted a link to it about 23 hours ago. You're slimier than a snake oil salesman.
I claimed ignorance to the existence of the Celestial Teapot (it may exist, it may not, who am I to claim it does or does not exist?). I did not claim ignorance to Russell's Teapot Anology.
There is everything in the world wrong with faith. It's an abrogation of the intelligence. It's stupidity copulating with ignorance to give birth to a false virtue.
And no, we don't have faith that we will live long, healthy lives, simply hope.
Not only are you delusional, but you support the concept of being delusional.
Yep and Yep. Got any more robertallentroll1?
So if these are the standards you've set up for yourself, let's apply them to you. Once again, do you believe in fairies? If you do, provide your proof. If you don't, state why and then provide your proof, making sure to furnish a detailed narrative of your search for fairies, how the search was conducted and what it turned up--remember absence of evidence--
I, on the other hand, have merely stated that I do not believe in fairies because no convincing evidence has been presented, the implication being that in light of such evidence, I am willing to reconsider my position. What seems beyond your comprehension is that I'm not making a definite assertion. In short, I don't have to look for evidence to prove something does not exist because, as Vlatko has tried repeatedly to point out to you, it's not only impossible, but unfalsifiable and untestable.
As has been pointed out to you by a number of posters, your position is not only untenable, it's inane.
I don't know about fairies...they might exist...they might not...I have to claim I'm an agnostic about the subject of their existence. I've not looked at the evidence claiming they exist nor have I looked at the evidence claiming they do not exist (although one knows I have asked for such evidence of absence from those who claim there are no fairies).
And no Robertallen1...you ARE making an assertion...you are asserting that "no convincing evidence has been presented." That is an assertion. And not free from the burden of proof just because it's difficult to back up.
Completely false. I stated that I do not believe in the existence of a supreme being because there has been no evidence to CONVINCE ME of its existence. I do not have to prove that I have found no evidence convince me, much less that there is no convincing evidence. In short, as a number of posters far more knowledgable than you have shown yourself to be have stated, you don't know what you're talking about.
Furthermore, if you're agnostic about the existence of fairies, you must be agnostic about the existence of unicorns, griffons, tritons, mermaids, mermans and other such fantastic creatures. How utterly ridiculous! How utterly absurd!
And just how does one look for fairies? Do you believe in fairies? If yes, produce your evidence for their existence, if not, tell me why not and produce your evidence for their non-existence. The claim is unfalsifiable and that's that.
As Vlatko clearly stated, under your logic, including the specious contention that absence of evidence does not indicate evidence of absence (what about frogs and warts?), every kooky idea that's ever been thought up would have to be given serious consideration.
Robertallen1 I'm not the one claiming Fairies do not exist. If you don't know how to show that there is no evidence that Fairies exist it's rude to ask me to believe your claim that there is no evidence and then ask me to help you demonstrate your point. You made the point in the first place (there is no evidence Fairies exist). Demonstrate your own point. Don't expect me to.
And do you know why we don't give every kooky idea that's ever been thought up serious consideration? Because we've established rules on how to avoid fallacies. And because we've taken the time to examine, understand, and explain that which is real. This helps us compare "kooky" ideas to reality, avoid fallacies in our judgement of those ideas, and more accurately weigh them against actual facts.
Which is why I'm trying to have us all be on the same page, and understand that science (methodological naturalism) is a bad authority to refer to regarding the subject of "God"/Creator (or on such a beings absence).
Don't try to weasel out of it. I'm merely demanding that you practice what you preach. Now once again, do you believe in fairies. If so, provide your proof. If not, describe your search and the results thereof.
Is the existence of fairies a kooky idea or isn't it? If not, how do we prove their existence, if it is, what logical fallacy militates against it.
I've asked you this before and received no answer: If science (methodical naturalism) is a bad authority when it comes to the existence of a supreme being, what authority should be used.--again, don't try to weasel out of it.
It seems you agree with me about avoiding fallacy.
Another fallacy is "Appeal to Absurdity." It doesn't matter if the claim that fairies exist is a kooky idea. It is not true if it's not kooky (nor is it false if it is kooky)...we can't appeal to absurdity as our evidence either way.
What we can do is investigate the evidence. What that really boils down to, and this is what all of us are doing on TDF actually, is personally postulating the merit of others claims of evidence.
This entails examining the claims of fairy believers, and the claims of fairy unbelievers.
If we do not believe fairies exist based on looking at the claims, we can't claim fairies do not exist. Neither can we claim there is no evidence for fairies. We can only claim that based on the evidence we have encountered we are not convinced fairies exists...but that there is a possibility that they might exist...and we can direct inquiries to those who claim to have encountered fairies, and to those who claim to have proved their non-existence.
It's a good question: "If science (methodological naturalism) is a bad authority when it comes to the existence of a supreme being what authorities should be used?" Well we're left with other types of evidentialism that can come from Personal experience, Eye witness accounts, Theology, Religious Naturalism, Psychology, The Occult, Philosophy, Mathematics, etc. Individually each field may not provide much evidence one way or the other. But taken as a whole things add up.
And we're not talking about a completely made up thing like a "Spaghetti Monster." We're talking about a valid and plausible cause for the origin of the Universe, that people claim can even be interacted with (because they claim to have done so). And that through investigations into eye witness accounts, theology, religious naturalism, psychology, the occult, philosophy, mathematics, and through pursuing one's own personal experiences one can have the evidence for themselves that such a cause exists or does not.
Appeal to absurdity is your rule, no one else's--and .
By the way, if the spaghetti monster is, as you claim, completely made up, so are fairies, the evidence for this being contained in many works of fiction, works that do not claim even an iota of truth. The fallacy of appeal to absurdity is your rule and your rule only, just as your claim of the obligation to prove a negative. Examining the claims of believers in fairies as opposed to those who do not believe in them is as idiotic as employing unverified and unverifiable personal experience and eye witness accounts, theology, religious naturalism, psychology, the occult, philosophy, mathematics, etc. either individually or taken together, to prove or disprove the existence of a supreme being, as none of these is capable of producing anything approaching hard evidence, the only type of evidence that counts--i.e., methodical naturalism, whether you like it or not
I'm just curious as to why you are conflating science and atheism? The terms describe two completely different things.
Saying that atheism or agnosticism requires a scientific basis does not seem logical to me.
The pursuit of science is unrelated to one's belief in a god or gods (theism). One can be a scientist regardless of religious outlook.
Nor does one's belief or disbelief in a deity (theism, a-theism) have any bearing on one's pursuit of science, education, the arts, business, parenting, driving a car or any other human activity. All of the pursuits of daily life can be conducted regardless of one's religious outlook.
I came to the conclusion that the existence of a god or gods is irrelevant to my life (my new favorite term, "apatheism").
It took no scientific study whatsoever. All it took was a realistic look at the world around me and a study of the world's religions.
IMHO it isn't science that creates atheists and agnostics, it's religion.
That's the problem with religees: they try to tie their religion into everything including diarrhea.
Evolution vs Intelligent design is I think, very silly. Okay i'm gonna admit that i'm religious... I am on an atheist chat site I know. I respect your views, I may not agree. But i respect them.
I do wish we could all have always had dialogue on this topic rather than silly arguments that end up in disrespect and going in circles.
Ok but to the point...
I believe in Intelligent design.
I believe in evolution.
Why should these 2 points of view contradict one another?
First of all, this is not an atheist chat site.
Kenneth R. Miller is a respected biologist and practicing Catholic who leaves his religion (and that's what intelligent design is) at the door of his lab. So, you could conceivably believe in both, provided you put science first.
I'm not sure you have to put either one first, merely keep each within its own domain. As you pointed out, Mr. Miller separates the two.
Edit: To clarify, the 'two' are religion and science.
If you're a scientist you put science first and if there's a conflict, between the two, religion must take a back seat.
well the problem is that intelligent design is your belief.
you were raised to believe that is the case. there is no evidence to support it. you are just fitting your belief around reality. it might not harm you but its certainly not a logically valid position.
But it sure can do a lot of harm when it is forced on science classes.
@ pysmythe and edge, another little Hitler type then? ;)
Edit! I am feeling devilish today !
Lone Ranger and Tonto
The Lone Ranger and Tonto are camping in the desert, set up their tent, and are asleep. Some hours later, The Lone Ranger wakes his faithful friend.
"Tonto, look up and tell me what you see."
Tonto replies, "Me see millions of stars."
"What does that tell you?" asks The Lone Ranger.
Tonto ponders for a minute.
"Astronomically speaking, it tells me that there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of planets.
Astrologically, it tells me that Saturn is in Leo.
Time wise, it appears to be approximately a quarter past three.
Theologically, it's evident the Lord is all powerful and we are small and insignificant.
Meteorologically, it seems we will have a beautiful day tomorrow.
What it tell you, Kemo Sabi?"
The Lone Ranger is silent for a moment, then speaks.
"Tonto, you Dumb Hoss, someone has stolen our tent."
So.. no rebuttal? You are just going to barrel right through and not answer to Epicurus, robertallen1, and my arguments? That's a huge problem with you religious nuts. You can list point-by-point your ridiculous arguments as if you wanted to have an intellectual discussion, but when someone rebuts your statements, you can't answer to THEIR arguments point-by-point. Is your instinctive rationality starting to dilute your ignorance, sir? I truly hope so!
Lone Ranger and Tonto, cont'd
Tonto looks pityingly at the Lone Ranger.
"Me take down tent for better view."
My guess is that there must have been a quadrillion x a centillion x several googleplexes ways that our universe could've unfurled and this just happens to be one of them. Lucky us?
And even if I'm wrong (fair chance) and there was only one lonely way for our universe to make it this far - still no reason to posit a creator other than one finds the idea fuzzy and warm. Just don't jam it down my throat - you'll be marmilized.
With so many ways for the unfurling of our universe, mathematically it stands to reason that any number of them could have produced the same result. It's like throwing infinite numbers of pairs of dice and asking how many times snake eyes will come up. I think more than once is a viable answer. Also, I wonder how many failures there were before a winning combination came up.
Do you mean "marmalized?"
"Do you mean "marmalized?""
Of course - just wanted to keep you busy buddy.
Yes it might have happened more than once and maybe identically. And maybe there is, in another pocket universe, a guy sitting there tapping this selfsame comment out. Maybe many.
The universe (to me) is beyond comprehension in expanse and time too. True I not a scientist nor mathematician yet I follow matters closely enough to agree the current model works or fits with what we know and don't know - but how much is that really?
I enjoy it because - it amuses me. The universe (what?) is a playground of possibilities - ain't this so.
I believe the evidence for God's existence comes primarily from the design of the universe.
What design?
I can't see a manufacturers stamp anywhere...
That The universe is designed with just the right laws of physics is just a line of evidence that tells me that God is real and created the universe. The evidence for design in the universe and biology has changed many atheists about the belief of a Creative force in the universe, including me. The universe is like a soup of ingredients mixed together to form everything around us, if u add little more of one ingredient or little less of another it changes everything.
"I can't see a manufacturers stamp anywhere" Do u need a name etched onto the surface of the planets to prove God's design? when i can just see it every night and day i guess if u were looking for a name u wouldn't believe it when u saw it anyway :D. God created the universe then the galaxies, stars and us are all "stamps" of His design. I doupt that all the physical laws would just happen to be tightly constrained by chance in order for all this to exist :D.
How do you tell when a thing has been designed?
Is it different than something that has not been designed?
You have made the claim ' God created the universe then the galaxies, stars and us are all "stamps" of His design.'
So now either prove it, or withdraw your claim.
...
"You have made the claim" I don't claim.
"So now either prove it, or admit that you are likely wrong."
I leave that to u :D Or prove that God does not exist.
Don't try that. As you're the one asserting, furnishing the proof is your responsibility, not Mr. Morrissey's. From your last sentence, it's obvious that you can't.
I didn't make the claim, not my job to prove or disprove.
You made the claim - so it is your job to prove yourself wrong, and you shouldn't try to pass that responsibility on, nor deny you wrote what you did.
I make no claim. therefore I have no reason to change my position, no need to go trying to prove or disprove anything.
So post something to back up your argument or withdraw it, simple.
Then maybe address some of my arguments to undermine my position if you feel it to be wrong :-
How do you tell when a thing has been designed?
Is it different than something that has not been designed?
If no, how can you tell between them?
If yes, then logically not everything has been designed.
So by claiming that a thing is by design, you are making a much larger claim that its surroundings are not designed,
Is a sand dune designed?
Is a cloud designed?
Is a river designed?
Is a rainbow designed?
All of these things have structure, a form of order. Maybe what you see as 'design' is simply order.
Sam.
That's sort of interesting. If everything is designed, then nothing is undesigned. Therefore, it is impossible to tell the difference, rendering the initial statement is absurd.
The trick is the question is not whether a thing is by design or not,
rather it is 'how do you tell?'
Of which you should be reasonably sure of before making a claim one way or the other.
Regards,
Sam
O.K., but try this: It's reasonable to conclude from Fender's posts that Fender's god created only what was designed because he could not have created anything that was not designed. Now, if somethings are designed and other things not designed (although like you, I'm at a loss to tell the difference), Fender's god created only some of the universe which militates against the existence of Fender's god.
It's nice that fender24 has faith in something. Leave him to it. You know he can't prove it one way or another, that's what faith is.
You and I both know that the human mind looks for patterns. =)
I'd be happy to leave him to it, but he wants to discuss it otherwise he wouldn't post, no?
Doubt is the real redeeming quality of mind.
Faith is a perverted swindling usurper.
Regards,
Sam.
Are the last two lines yours?
It was pretty clear from his post that he has no idea what you all are talking about, he just made a faith-based claim that he sees design (order) in the universe and therefore has concluded that a god made it.
But enjoy. =) I have a feeling it will all go over his head anyway.
Everthing goes over a creationist's head except creationism.
In other words, you just look at something and because YOU see order, there must be a god, your god of whom you have inside knowledge such as its being the agent of creation.
"I doubt that all the physical laws would just happen to be tightly constrained by chance in order for all this to exist." Because you doubt this (based on what, I wonder), it cannot be. Typical argument from incredulity and lack of knowledge of basic physics and biology.
"The evidence for design in the universe and biology has changed many atheists about the belief of a Creative force in the universe, including me." Other than for yourself, where is the evidence to back this statement up? Did it ever occur to you that there might be more cases going in the opposite direction?
So just where is your evidence for design and a designer or is it all in your typical creationist argument?
"So just where is your evidence for design and a designer or is it all in your typical creationist argument? "
Our universe is incredibly "fine-tuned" for life to come into existence, thus providing evidence of a transcendent designer. Because i do not think the universe just came into existence from nothing it makes sense that a super-intelligent, powerful Being invented the laws of physics that produced the universe. It is that simple, why i believe what i do is in the cosmology and biology.
The universe, our galaxy, our Solar System and the Earth-Moon double planet system demonstrate some remarkable evidence of intelligent design to me and all this is observable. I never implied that i can prove that God exist physically but i know he does and that there is no doupt :D that is my personal belief. Just like you have a belief that God does not exist?
We know that universe had a cause a beginning, that there is no way to get rid of a beginning to any universe that is characterized by cosmic expansion. However, strong atheism states that there is no God, even though observational evidence indicates that the universe has a cause that cannot be detected observationally, so despite the lack of observational evidence for a naturalistic cause atheists who denies the possible existence of God violates his own worldview.
Atheists who say that science cannot have anything to say about the existence of God. However, they think that they can prove the non-existence of God through science. Although science cannot directly detect God, it can examine His creation. Consider the non-physical concept of love. We all accept that love exists, although it cannot be directly measured by science. However, if we observe those who love each other, we can indirectly measure the affect of love on these individuals' actions. Likewise, although we cannot measure God directly, we can examine the universe to detect God's imprint on the physical world
Recent Studies have confirmed the fine tuning of the cosmological constant (also known as "dark energy"). This cosmological constant is a force that increases with the increasing size of the universe.
Another finely tuned constant is the strong nuclear force (the force that holds atoms together). Strong nuclear force constant
if larger: no hydrogen would form; atomic nuclei for most life-essential elements would be unstable; thus, no life chemistry
If smaller: no elements heavier than hydrogen would form: again, no life chemistry
"Other than for yourself, where is the evidence to back this statement up?" Lol u are lazy i thought i did not need to when this is available to everyone. The evidence for design in the universe and biology is so strong that Antony Flew, a long-time proponent of atheism, renounced his atheism in 2004 and now believes that the existence of a Creator is required to explain the universe and life in it. Likewise, Frank Tipler, Professor of the Department of Mathematics at Tulane University, and a former atheist, not only became a theist, but is now a born-again Christian because of the laws of physics. Why does the laws of physics exist? by chance or design? :D Steven hawking could not answer that.
:D The design of the earth and solar system is also quite impressive. Likewise, chemistry and physics preclude the possibility that life evolved on earth. Galaxy size if too large: infusion of gas and stars would disturb sun's orbit and ignite deadly galactic eruptions
if too small: infusion of gas would be insufficient to sustain star formation long enough for life to form
Galaxy type (p = 0.1)
If too elliptical: star formation would cease before sufficient heavy elements formed for life chemistry
if too irregular: radiation exposure would be too severe (at times) and life-essential heavy elements would not form
Yet science has not detected any life on other planets, doesn't that prove the miracle of life that we are unique?
U don't believe in miracles?
So the evidence backing up your statement is solely based on TWO people out of millions of atheists that happened to convert to Christianity? Your "evidence" only proves that those two individuals are crackpots, nothing more. And judging that you even consider this evidence shows how crackpot you are. I mean.. really? If a scientist distracts their work with religion, they cease to be respectable scientists, therefore your radical (and very scary) argument is invalid.
Right. It's like a biologist denying evolution, a chemist denying the existence of bacteria and viruses and a geologist denying that the earth is about 4.5 billion years old.
Asserting that our universe is "incredibly 'fine-tuned' for life to come into existence . . . " is the mark of someone who doesn't know the first thing about basic biology, physics and chemistry. Did it ever occur to you that the cosmological constants so endearing to your theology might have evolved, i.e., that you're looking at the history of the universe backwards? Even granting the truth of your statement, there is nothing in it to imply a transcendent designer, except your inane theology. In short, you've tried to support your quantum leap forward with WHAT YOU THINK, which would be laughable were it not so pathetic.
We don't need some supernatural third party whose existence can only be at best inferred and at worst unproven and whom no one knows anthing about, to explain the beginning of the universe, except in the fairy tale world of your theology.
And speaking of the fairy tale world of your theology, using our current inability to scientifically measure certain things (you're obviously not up on the latest scientific experiments on the emotions of which "love" is one) as proof of the existence of god's alleged immeasurable imprint on the physical world is as idiotic as your juxtaposition of science with atheism and your quantum leap in declaring me to be an atheist. Supporting evidence is apparently an anathema to you. For your information, as a whole, modern atheists do not claim that there is no god, but that so far there has not been any evidence sufficient to prove the existence of one. I hope that you can appreciate the considerable distinction and difference as I hope that you can appreciate the illogicality of your question pertaining to life on other planets, namely that the CURRENT inability of science to discover "life" on other planets does not imply uniqueness of life on this one.
So you thought you didn't need evidence to back up your assertions because you "think" (there we go, belief as opposed to proof) such evidence is readily available. You're obviously suffering from an intellectual disorder affecting so many of your ilk, an inability to grasp the concept that if you assert, you furnish the proof (not supposition) and when it comes to the existence of a supreme being, a few quotes from authority on a subject outside their fields of study and of which they know as much about as anyone else demonstrate nothing. In this regard, you fail to mention that Dr. Tipler's omega point cosmology (described by George Ellis in "Nature" as "a masterpiece of pseudoscience) has been discredited by virtually all the mainstream scientific world (the world that counts). Also in this regard, why did you fail to indicate the source of your information as to what Dr. Hawking allegedly cannot answer--or is this merely another sample of your "belief?"
In short, you have offered no proof of anything, only supposition, belief and quotes from authority, together with your theology (that's what intelligent design is) which inhibits all logic and rational thought,
In answer to your last question, wrapping something in a miracle says nothing about it, except that you know nothing concerning it. Miracles are for little children, ignoramuses and mental deficients.
I
"Our universe is incredibly "fine-tuned" for life to come into existence, thus providing evidence of a transcendent designer."
nothing about this is logical. first off the universe is VERY hostile to life forming. the majority of the universe certainly cannot harbor life. there is no purpose for much of the universe if the main goal was life.
"Because i do not think the universe just came into existence from nothing it makes sense that a super-intelligent, powerful Being invented the laws of physics that produced the universe."
your problem is you think the only other answer is the universe came from nothing, but that is not true. you can simply say you dont know. you can also try to understand what physicists say. the universe came from a quantum singularity. we dont fully understand the quantum scale so you hold off an answer until more evidence comes forward....WHY IS THAT SO HARD? why do you have to make up a being that existed for ever and just decided to make everything one day, and decided to judge the life he makes...and throws in some viruses and terrible diseases while he is at it....Why does that make sense to you?
"The universe, our galaxy, our Solar System and the Earth-Moon double planet system demonstrate some remarkable evidence of intelligent design to me and all this is observable"
why? The universe formed 14 BILLION years ago, then it took 10 BILLION years before our solar system formed, then it took another 4 BILLION years for humans to come on the scene.
Humans could very well go extinct tomorrow. we could set off all our nuclear bombs and all life would be gone....but the universe would continue.
and you think it was made FOR US?!?!!??! you think there was some intention behind this?!?!?! what did it wait for?
"I never implied that i can prove that God exist physically but i know he does and that there is no doupt :D that is my personal belief. Just like you have a belief that God does not exist?"
You understand that BELIEF and KNOWLEDGE are two very different things? you cant say you know something and that you believe it. you dont KNOW that god exists. you believe it. and I dont KNOW god doesnt exist. but the fact that you dont KNOW god exists should lead you to at least be honest with yourself and question WHY you insist on believing it is true....dont you think?
"We know that universe had a cause a beginning, that there is no way to get rid of a beginning to any universe that is characterized by cosmic expansion. However, strong atheism states that there is no God, even though observational evidence indicates that the universe has a cause that cannot be detected observationally, so despite the lack of observational evidence for a naturalistic cause atheists who denies the possible existence of God violates his own worldview"
we know the universe at its state came into existence at one point. that doesnt mean a god must have made it. it was in a singularity with no time or space. upon expansion (which could have happened for countless different reasons) time and space came into existence. but that singularity existed in SOMETHING. it was on the quantum level. we are still trying to understand the laws of the quantum level. so you have a completely false view of what science and atheists think.
"Atheists who say that science cannot have anything to say about the existence of God. However, they think that they can prove the non-existence of God through science."
again, you dont understand the atheists position. science can not study something that doesnt have any falsifiable claims. i can say there is an invisible dragon in my garage that you cant detect because it is supernatural. that is a claim science cant test. just like god.
BUT NO ON says that we can prove the non-existence of god through science. that doesnt make sense. for any claim someone makes for god, if it is testable we can use science to determine the truth of the claim and if it doesnt hold up we can dismiss the claim.
"Consider the non-physical concept of love. We all accept that love exists, although it cannot be directly measured by science."
Love is understood by science on a material level. just because you dont know it doesnt mean scientists who study it dont.
look up Neurology of love.
"Likewise, although we cannot measure God directly, we can examine the universe to detect God's imprint on the physical world"
if this is true how come when we examine the universe (we being people who arent religious) we dont see evidence of YOUR god? and when people of different religions look at the universe they all see evidence to support THEIR gods. just like you see evidence to support your god. clearly you guys are not aware how to look for evidence without giving in to your cognitive bias.
"Recent Studies have confirmed the fine tuning of the cosmological constant (also known as "dark energy"). This cosmological constant is a force that increases with the increasing size of the universe.
Another finely tuned constant is the strong nuclear force (the force that holds atoms together). Strong nuclear force constant
if larger: no hydrogen would form; atomic nuclei for most life-essential elements would be unstable; thus, no life chemistry
If smaller: no elements heavier than hydrogen would form: again, no life chemistry"
but that doesnt conclude that a god MUST have made it that way.
" The evidence for design in the universe and biology is so strong that Antony Flew, a long-time proponent of atheism, renounced his atheism in 2004 and now believes that the existence of a Creator is required to explain the universe and life in it. Likewise, Frank Tipler, Professor of the Department of Mathematics at Tulane University, and a former atheist, not only became a theist, but is now a born-again Christian because of the laws of physics."
two men getting closer to their death turned to a religion that is dominante in their culture....and you hold that up as evidence for your god?
should i show you all the people who grew up religious and became atheist after learning?
would that be evidence for or against a god?
all you have shown in this instance is that people are able to change their minds....that is good.
"The design of the earth and solar system is also quite impressive. Likewise, chemistry and physics preclude the possibility that life evolved on earth. Galaxy size if too large: infusion of gas and stars would disturb sun's orbit and ignite deadly galactic eruptions
if too small: infusion of gas would be insufficient to sustain star formation long enough for life to form
Galaxy type (p = 0.1)
If too elliptical: star formation would cease before sufficient heavy elements formed for life chemistry
if too irregular: radiation exposure would be too severe (at times) and life-essential heavy elements would not form"
if a god were real why would he need to obey all these things? didnt he make these rules? what would be the point of all this if there was actually an intelligent designer? none of this seems intelligent. it all seems natural and it had to fall into a way that fits. that is all.
"Yet science has not detected any life on other planets, doesn't that prove the miracle of life that we are unique?"
we are detecting the possibility of life on a moon going around Jupiter...so if there is life in the universe elsewhere would that take away from your argument or would you just twist it to fit that also?
remember the universe existed for basically 14 billion years without humans and will continue without us....how are we or and life the goal and not just another byproduct?
@Epicurus and Achem--and, of course, anyone else:
I've been reading "The Fabric of the Cosmos" by Brian Greene and have completed the section on the quantum world which seems to set in relief the idiocy and ignorance all of the creationist arguments as typically expressed by fender24.
The problem with intelligent design (creationism if you prefer) is that it tries to dumb down the complex workings of life, the universe and the histories thereto and will do everything it can to keep it dumbed down, including lying, cheating and deceiving (by the way, there are no answers in Genesis). Epicurus, you are right. "I don't know, but I'm going to try to find out" beats "I believe" by a cosmological mile.
The universe (including the earth) and its constants are not fine tuned for life and humanity.
Instead life and humanity, through evolution, are fine tuned to the universe (especially the earth) as it is.
You are making a claim that your god exists.
The onus is on you to prove/substantiate your claim, how do you know your gods created the universe then the galaxies, stars and all of us are stamps of "HIS"?? design?? have you got the blueprints?
Just because you say so does not cut it, in the size, time scale and vastness of the universe, you are basically invisible, a nothing, so you carry no weight at all in that regard and certainly no spokesman nor have a pipeline to any of your gods.
According to Stephen Hawking in his latest book "the grand design" he claims the universe was made from absolutely nothing, and backs it up with math.
Can't you imagine his god not only creating the quantum world, but designing it in such a way that it operates differently from the magnum world. That's the thing about intelligent design: it assumes that there is only one design which in the face of science makes it unintelligent.
The designs seen in cosmology and biology must be the result of an intelligent Designer.
There are actually two major theories of biological evolution: Microevolution and Macroevolution. I accept microevolution as a scientifically reliable theory, which describes the intelligent design with which organisms were endowed by their Designer. However, in contrast to the reliability of microevolutionary theory, macroevolution is not supported by the record of nature or current scientific research.
Even though science can not directly detect God, It can examine His creation.
Evidence of design can be seen in the nature of the universe and how it came to be.
The data from cosmology shows that the universe had a beginning when space, time, matter and energy exploded out from the cosmic event known as the Big Bang. COBE (Cosmic Background Explorer) was a satellite that measured the temperature of the radiation left over from the Big Bang. The COBE satellite found the expected variation in temperature and mapped it, providing a startling confirmation of the Hot Big Bang model. These results have largely silenced critics of the Big Bang, who were hoping to get rid of the “problem” of an initial beginning to the universe.
"It is the discovery of the century, if not all time" Stephen Hawking
"What we have found is evidence for the birth of the universe. It’s like looking at God." George Smoot (UC Berkeley - COBE project leader)
Other theories rely upon sets of unlikely circumstances or phenomenon which can never be tested or proven.. Now scientists know what kind of Big Bang it was. The theological implications are inescapable. At some point in the past, the universe was created from what has been called a singularity (or no volume). This event must require the existence of a creator, either natural or supernatural (God).
The Big Bang implies a universe which is created, therefore the need for a creator. Most likely, Hawking is trying to avoid the implications of general relativity that time had a beginning at the instant of the Big Bang. Time had a beginning, then the events that led to the Big Bang must lie outside of time - a second dimension of time. The Bible says that the universe was created in finite time from that which is not visible. In addition, the Bible describes an expanding universe model that God "spreads out the heavens" and that the visible parts were made from the invisible (Hebrews 11:3),5 both ideas supported by modern cosmology. Is this why atheists are so anxious to try to get rid of a beginning to the universe? :D Like Steven Hawking does in his newest book u can hardly call that science, it is not even a theory.
For an ancient document written thousands of years ago, the Bible has made some remarkable scientific claims - many of which were not verified until this century. time is a construct of this universe and began at the initiation of the Big Bang. A God who exists outside the time constraints of the universe is not subject to cause and effect. So, the idea that God has always existed and is not caused follows logically from the fact that the universe and time itself was created at the Big Bang.
@fender24:
Nothing that you have said of your bibles garners any scientific evidence whatsoever, and by starting your post..."The designs seen in cosmology and biology must be the result of an intelligent designer" was a dead giveaway you know nothing of what you speak, you are using an "argument from ignorance" means nothing.
You are also using George Smoot as an "argument from authority."
And the rest of your post is an "argument from improbability" and an "argument from design" with a smattering of "first cause argument"
When you come on site and try to talk to us big boys you better do your homework and give us something that you can prove, instead of making useless claims.
Fine, but do we want him talking to little children as well?
"The designs seen in cosmology and biology must be the result of an intelligent designer." Seen? By whom? And why does this entail a designer? "Must be" cannot take the place of proof.
"Evidence of design can be seen in the nature of the universe and how it came to be?" As you have been previously asked, how do you distinguish between design and non-design? Who is doing the seeing? And just what is this evidence in the nature of the universe and why is it necessary to bring an intelligent designer into it?
"The Big Bang implies a universe which is created and therefore the need for a creator." Why not " which came about" rather than "created?" Or is it that your theology governs whether it is accurate or not?
And just what is the difference between microevolution and macroevolution? What makes you state that there is no scientific proof (record of nature, scientific research) for what you term macroevolution? Could it be what you have read on one of the creationist websites you probably frequent? And by the way, no one cares what you accept; it's what you can prove.
"A God who exists outside the time constraints of the universe is not subject to cause and effect." First of all, show me your proof (not supposition or belief) that such a being exists. After that, prove to me that this being is not subject to cause and effect--and I don't mean by chimeric inference.
"The Bible has made some remarkable scientific claims--many of which were not verified until this century." As with cosmological constants, you've got it backwards. With the increase of scientific information, religious fools started re-interpreting the Bible to conform to the latest discoveries. Your quote, however inappropriate, is a textbook example.
Your posts scream with signal ignorance of biology (evolution), physics, genetics, mathematics and biblical scholarship. They constitute the same old pathetic creationist arguments and downright lies which if you had any education, you would be ashamed to make.
1. "I accept microevolution as a scientifically reliable theory, which describes the intelligent design with which organisms were endowed by their Designer. "
Please provide your source that states mainstream science (not your one or two crackpots) believes organisms were endowed by a god.
2. "Evidence of design can be seen in the nature of the universe and how it came to be. "
You are using the word "evidence" when you should not. Evidence helps prove or disprove a theory. Since you said yourself, we cannot detect a God, how could you even surmise he/it was the cause of all this? If I walked into the woods and saw a footprint that was human-like but I just wasn't sure, I wouldn't come to the conclusion that the footprint was from Bigfoot. Since there is no evidence of Bigfoot being a reality, it would be unwise for me to make the assumption that the footprint was his/hers. Your thoughts?
3. "Bible describes an expanding universe model that God "spreads out the heavens" and that the visible parts were made from the invisible (Hebrews 11:3)"
It's funny how people claim the bible is up for interpretation, and other times the same people say it has SPECIFIC phrases which have only one parallel meaning. Clearly people in that age new nothing of modern science. You are interpreting a thousands year old phrase to mean something modern science has discovered in the past century. Do you see how incredibly ignorant that is? I mean, WTF LOOK AT THE TEXT MAN! It's so vague you could interpret it as millions of different things.
4. "For an ancient document written thousands of years ago, the Bible has made some remarkable scientific claims"
I cannot wait to hear what scientific claims the bible has made. Please give me a few examples. Seriously though, cut the bullsh*t and give me hard factual evidence of any scientific claims. "Spreads out the heavens" is not a scientific claim. You know what I'm looking for.
Please respond to these 4 points. I would love to hear your thoughts point-by-point.
im starting to feel ignored.
"The designs seen in cosmology and biology must be the result of an intelligent Designer."
lol this is a hell of a statement. and its just not the case. what we see in cosmology and biology must be the result of non-intelligence and natural causes. an intelligence would have done things MUCH better.
"There are actually two major theories of biological evolution: Microevolution and Macroevolution."
NO. this is another intelligent design lie. as someone who studies evolution on an academic level i assure you there is no REAL distinction. we know life has been here for billions of years. we know small changes over long periods of time lead to large changes. so microevolution MUST imply macroevolution.
" I accept microevolution as a scientifically reliable theory, which describes the intelligent design with which organisms were endowed by their Designer. However, in contrast to the reliability of microevolutionary theory, macroevolution is not supported by the record of nature or current scientific research."
see how easy it is to say something like this and feel right when you create a strawman like pretending there is a difference between micro and macroevolution. change in allele frequencies occur. over large periods of time those changes are large enough to create new species. there is AMPLE evidence of this happening in the lab as well as the fossil record and what we now know about genetics....all support what you deem macroevolution.
you are pretending there is debate or argument in the scientific community about these things, and you are being lied to by your religious leaders.
"Even though science can not directly detect God, It can examine His creation.
Evidence of design can be seen in the nature of the universe and how it came to be. "
i already addressed this in your last post....are you completely ignoring me? to be honest i am going through a healthy amount of time and effort to read and respond to you...why would you just ignore me?
"At some point in the past, the universe was created from what has been called a singularity (or no volume). This event must require the existence of a creator, either natural or supernatural (God)."
......why? why MUST it require the existence of a CREATOR (which implies Intelligence). you have just made a non-sequitor. look it up.
"The Big Bang implies a universe which is created, therefore the need for a creator."
not at all. it does not imply CREATION it implies beginning. many things begin to exist without the help of an intentional creator. look at mountains or continents. they form naturally. no need for a creator.
"Most likely, Hawking is trying to avoid the implications of general relativity that time had a beginning at the instant of the Big Bang."
clearly you havent read a single thing Hawking has published. clearly you are not up to date on what physicists think.
"In addition, the Bible describes an expanding universe model that God "spreads out the heavens" and that the visible parts were made from the invisible (Hebrews 11:3),5 both ideas supported by modern cosmology."
Hebrews 11:3 says By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
I cant find a single version that says the heavens are SPREAD out. and even if that were the case it would not support cosmology. it would support the belief that people held back then that the sky was like a sheet that was spread out over the earth.
"Is this why atheists are so anxious to try to get rid of a beginning to the universe? :D Like Steven Hawking does in his newest book u can hardly call that science, it is not even a theory."
You mean the strawman you created? wow....and you think you have even the slightest intelligence or education level to tell possibly the smartest man who has lived that he is wrong....that takes some balls sir. i must bow down to that.
"For an ancient document written thousands of years ago, the Bible has made some remarkable scientific claims - many of which were not verified until this century. "
.........
Insects do not have four feet
Lev 11:21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth
upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the
earth;
Lev 11:22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and
the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the
grasshopper after his kind.
Lev 11:23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet,
shall be an abomination unto you.
They have six. In fact, NOTHING that can fly has four feet.
Rabbits do not chew their cud
Lev 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
They only appear to, due to mistaken human perception. How could an all knowing God not know this?
Snakes, while built low, do not eat dirt nor dust
Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
The bat is not a bird
Lev 11:13 These are the birds you are to detest and not eat because they are
detestable: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture,
Lev 11:19 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.
Deu 14:11 You may eat any clean bird.
Deu 14:12 But these you may not eat: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture,
Deu 14:18 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.
The bat is in fact a flying mammal.
Snails do not melt
Psalm 58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like
the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.
The Earth is not flat
Yet these verses indicate that the Earth must either be flat, square or rectangle!
Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
How can the Earth have four corners if it's sphere-shaped? Four corners indicate either a flat, square or rectangular structure!
Likewise, notice the structural disposition of the Earth assumed by these verses.
Psalms 67:7 God will bless us, and all the ends of the earth will fear him.
Psalms 135:7 He makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth; he sends lightning with the rain and brings out the wind from his storehouses.
Proverbs 30:4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!
Isaiah 40:28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth.
Isaiah 41:9 I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you. I said, 'You are my servant'; I have chosen you and have not rejected you.
Isaiah 5:26 He lifts up a banner for the distant nations, he whistles for those at the ends of the earth. Here they come, swiftly and speedily!
Daniel 4:10-11 These are the visions I saw while lying in my bed: I looked, and there
before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth.
Zechariah 9:10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the war-horses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth.
Mark 13:26-27 At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
Romans 10:18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."
How can a round sphere have "ends"? Also, in regard to Psalm 135:7, winds do not come from storehouses! So much for Biblical meteorology. And from Daniel 4:10-11, how can a tree be tall enough to touch the sky? Did the infallible Bible writers think that the sky had a roof? Also from Daniel:
Daniel 4:20 The tree you saw, which grew large and strong, with its top touching the sky, visible to the whole earth...
No matter how tall that tree is, there's no way it could be seen to the “ends of the Earth” on a spherical body! Likewise,
Isaiah 18:3 All you people of the world, you who live on the earth, when a banner is raised on the mountains, you will see it, and when a trumpet sounds, you will hear it.
Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain,
and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Luke 4:5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world.
Since astronomical bodies are spherical, you cannot see the entire exterior surface from anyplace on it, therefore you could not technically see "all the kingdoms of the world" from one point!
Next,
Proverbs 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
Zechariah 12:1 This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth...
A foundation structurally implies building a basement to the ground first to lay the rest above it!
Similarly,
Psalms 75:3 When the earth and all its people quake, it is I who hold its pillars firm.
I guess the foundation of the world has pillars holding it up too?
Of course, in defense Christians will try to claim that these verses are only metaphors or allegorical, and not to be taken literally. But why don’t they take all the verses of their cherished fundamental doctrines and do the same as well? How do they decide what is allegorical and what is literal? And why should we trust their judgment on that?
The Earth is not motionless
Psalms 104:5 The Earth is firmly fixed; it shall not be moved.
1 Chronicles 16:30 Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.
The Earth is moving constantly 24 hours a day in its path around the Sun!
The moon is not a light
Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and
the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
The moon is not a light. You can only see it glow only because of the sun's reflection off of it. During some of its phases, you can't even see it at all.
Our sun is not the same age as the rest of the stars
Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and
the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Scientists have observed and dated many of the stars in the universe to be millions or even billions of years older than our sun.
Stars are not little balls of light close to the Earth
Revelation 6:12-14
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
The Bible authors obviously thought that the stars were little balls of light that could fall to the Earth. They had no idea how big and how far away the stars actually are!
Wind is not held in storehouses
Psalms 135:7 He makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth; he sends lightning with the rain and brings out the wind from his storehouses.
Anyone with even an elementary knowledge of meteorology or basic science can tell you that wind is not produced from “storehouses”!
How can an inerrant book inspired by an all-knowing God make false scientific facts such as these?
so are you going to ignore this post as well? it seems you just gloss over any post that makes you use your head.
You've outdone yourself, but one thing. I don't know if Stephen Hawking is the smartest man who ever lived, but he is certainly one of the major scientists of the 20-21st centuries. However, your point as to an intellectual dwarf like fender24 and those we've both encountered trying to go up against Dr. Hawking and peers is beyond well-taken.
But if you add a little something else or remove something you'll still get a universe, just a different one. Like leaving two different plates of food under a teenagers bed, both will go mouldy but with different mould. And honestly, mould will find a way, it doesn't need help :/
No doubt some of the inhabitants/spores would think the universe/dinner had been made just for them. Not so, teen daughter no.1 is definitely more big bang than thoughtful creator! Also she swears that it wasn't her that left the plates there and it certainly wasn't me. The chances of them turning up from nowhere must be gastronomical but it happened anyway. Amazing! I have a sneaking suspicion that the universe is littered with life, it's just very far apart!
I wonder if my daughter is responsible for all the mould under all the beds in all the world? Wouldn't surprise me...
So for me, no creator. Just a happy accident :)
Another wonderful example of your wistfulness. Keep it up.
LOL, way of topic but yes, when my daughter was a teenager, decided to clean up her room, 6 hours later, finding stuff, stuffed in various crooks and crannies, behind cabinets etc: and even lo and behold stuff she said was missing or stolen.
And then to our chagrin she raised the roof that we even touched her stuff as only a 15 year old can do, she claimed every thing was to neat, could not find anything, but in another universe, another reality was neat to begin with?? somehow I doubt that.
why couldnt god be Shiva? or Thor? why the christian god?
I vote for Gaia. If we're going to worship anything, it may as well be the earth we live on.
My vote is for the Sun (no pun intended), since absolutely nothing here happens without it.
Gaia + Sun = marriage made in the heavens! (pun intended)
Lol, I like that! Perfect. :)
I am very glad of our little planet, and of all that is in, on and around it but I don't think I could bring myself to worship any of it. It didn't make itself just for our comfort and happiness and anyway, Is my pleasure in it not thanks enough? Every time I lay myself on the grass i am hugging the earth and smiling into its sky blue eyes. That should be plenty enough worship for any deity. And the sun has not shone enough to have kissed me properly this summer, so I hardly have reason to sing his praises. So half hearted an effort, I'm not offering devotion in return for that! ;)
Ah, now, Dewy, the Sun would still embrace you with his warmth, rain his tender rays upon you, enfold you in what light he could offer, and hope that you bloom in all ways, as best as he is able! Do not fault him for it, if Gaia should cast up clouds and cold in her jealousy, and make him seem to stand off at such a distance. He has less proximity to you than he could wish, and so must be eclipsed by whatever wiles she may rightly deem reasonable.
So, your comment started me thinking (always a dangerous prospect!).
It seems to me that what is missing from the judeo-christian-islamic trilogy is the feminine divine.
Think about it. The jewish god is a male. The islamic god is a male. The christian god is a male, who sent his son, also a male, to save us all. Then these two guys teamed up with a holy spirit, presumably either sexless or also a male--but certainly not female.
Now, all three of these religions claim their god is the same god. But all three of them are squabbling and fighting like little boys all trying to get into the same basket of goodies, and determined that that other two won't.
Each boy has one hand and all their weight leaning on the basket lid to keep it shut. Meanwhile they're using their other fist to punch the other two boys, trying to fight them off. No one is getting any goodies and they've all got black eyes and bruises.
Where's mama? Where's the balancing power of the feminine to first send these little brats into time out, and then sit all three of them down and teach them how to share?
Look into Genesis, at the story of Adam and Eve. Behold the feminine, turned into the temptress, the whore, the slave. Where is the nurturer, the mother, the loving partner, the wise healer? She is left to bleed in childbirth and be sold into into bondage.
Now you know why I, too, prefer not to worship.
Can't you imagine all the godesses getting together for a tupperware party or a game of bridge?
Sure, but when they do that they're accused of being witches and burned at the stake...
If you think men are bad when battling, you haven't been around your own sex much! Of all the fights I've seen in my day (and I've seen plenty), women fights were the most brutal (and entertaining)! :)
Oh, you missed my point.
My analogy wasn't about grown men, it was about little children squabbling, and needing a good time-out and lessons in sharing.
Adam, gods firstborn! If I remember rightly his soul was made on the first day, was the world then made as a garden for him?
God then made lilith, his equal and opposite. A feisty mare and unbreakable. Imagine her slippery and luscious in the shade of that tree. Snake skin dress, cute lisp, poisoned fruit all over her hat like Carmen Miranda gone bad ;) What an education she must have been for Eve, I bet she couldn't get that apple down Adams throat fast enough! Silly boy undid himself with his own greed. Three times!
On the 6th day, actually, but that's not really that important, or not as important (to me) as the fact that for the last 20 years or so I can't help imagining Lilith as looking an awful lot like Bebe Neuwirth...
Actually, that isn't that important, either, lol.
Slippery and luscious, on the other hand, has the surefire ring of one of those Great Eternal Truths. :)
Is god a christian? ;)
dewflirt
well if we assume that his son was the same religion as his father (or himself) then god is an Arab/Jewish man. and as we know the average height at the time for a man was 5 foot to 5 foot 1 and according to the acts of John he was (Jesus) "a man of small stature" . so picture a Jewish super Mario and you are close. why do i get the feeling that this post is going to get me in trouble. again :(
edit: lol i just noticed you are post 666. i knew you were a little devil :)
Whatever his religion may be, I know damned well his (New Testament) politics are (pretty much) SOCIALIST! :D
Just how?
Hey I approach things perhaps different than most, Proudly despite being hid behind a veil of words that have NOTHING to do with who I truly am nor how I think. But my question is this:
How can we disprove the possible existence of (a) god, if we have nothing solid to deduce. if seeing is believing maybe we're not looking close enough. maybe god is the inner experience of man's measure to the astounding and baffling world around him. Perhaps man himself is the instrument who must remain 'god like' to enable him to create a greater understanding over his world, to even keep his senses ever vigilant to folly that truly a god could not be brought easily down by.
With science in this respect, man is no longer the center of his own world, if someone else were, like Jesus than empathy with another heart takes it's place in the form of love, but if science were to be there than where will man stand in such a world? can anyone riddle me this?
Check out some quotes of C.G. Jung and what he thought about god, But if, for instance, the statement that Christ rose from the dead is to be understood not literally but symbolically, then it is capable of various interpretations that do not collide with knowledge and does not impair the meaning of the statement....the danger that a mythology understood too literally, and as taught by the Church, will suddenly be repudiated lock, stock, and barrel is today greater than ever. Is it not time that the Christian mythology, instead of being wiped out, was understood symbolically for once?"
"This is not to say that Christianity is finished. I am on the contrary, convinced that it is not Christianity, but our conception and interpretation of it, that has become antiquated in the face of the present world situation. The Christian symbol is a living thing that carries in itself the seeds of further development."
"And are not Jesus and Paul prototypes of those who, trusting their inner experience, have gone their own individual ways, disregarding public opinion?
"...it should not be forgotten that , unlike other religions, Christianity holds at its core a symbol which has for its content the individual way of life of a man, the Son of Man, and that it even regards this individuation process as the incarnation and revelation of God Himself. Hence the development of the self acquires a significance whose full implications have hardly begun to be appreciated because too much attention to externals blocks the way to immediate inner experience."
You're pointing out the difference between literalism and figurativism.
It would be nice if literalist christians could understand the difference, too.
What you are proposing is that people realize the bible is a mixture of myth, folklore and spiritual guidance, and value it accordingly.
Science is just a methodology. It's not a replacement for spiritual belief. It's a description of the natural world and the natural forces within it.
The problem religious leaders have with science is that it relentlessly pulls back the curtain on the religious organizations, demonstrating that there is no "Mighty Oz" sitting behind it, but instead just a sideshow huckster.
Your response tells me you have educated yourself quite well, Kateye. ;) I propose instead that religion serves as a culture-buff, ensuing close knit bonds stitching people with ceremonial stewardship to hold people together by stories, to dream, to imagine. Science is methodology, but one can find themselves comparatively less than captivated in a room with a book full all the answers of the world, the universe written there for you. The conundrum is the story telling moral teaching side of Religion, it's mystery was deeper because It's story actually involved us, in our dreams and gave one a sense of affirmation. The problem with this dichotomy is the lack of life affirming mystery of science because it's all pent up in school just as the way Socrates would have written, "only those who know geometry may enter" in what would be the most Astonishing conventions about the nature of reality. And for Christians, especially if you live in a small town, churches. Methodist, Pentecostal, etc. you know? where like a chain of franchise resturaunts would replace fine dining and cuisine to take your whole family. (metaphorically) and a sloppy simple patty, buns and ketchup is all you get. :'(
I know this is getting long, Kateye, Thank you for reading by the way.
But what I propose is that we reinvent our modern Idea of religion from it's heap of ashes charred with the very demeanor of our barbarian ancestor scrutiny to pounce on matters as it were, instead we can weigh them delicately for what they truly are. Innocent people not bent on raping nature in every figurative sense of the word as impulse would tell us to learn, but I instead propose that we ask nature what she wants by way of confronting our own scientifically religiously or through the way where both meet. Shamanism.
Psychedelics! or simply religiom through science XP Enthopharmacologist, Terence Mckenna discovered was the best way to learn about yourself, it proved far more spiritually promising than meditation. And meditation as neurologists have learned is the sure fire way to having a spiritual experience, shutting down the anterior cingulate, home to where all our fears dilute our every sense of well being. Psilocybin mushrooms as T.M. proposed taking has the potential to deactivates the smallest detectable fight or flight response by actually turning off these major instinctual parts of our brain, the neocortex involved in higher learning takes it's place. As stimulation of the many 5ht receptors improves IQ! Also scientist note that under psychedelics like Mushrooms or nnDMT the experience of god or angles, seeing them or communion with them immerges unexpectedly under the influence. Legally I do not recommend using drugs, just read up everyone. If you got this far, than take a break for now lol
Thank you, Kateye for the limelight
god exists... :P
Just what are you drivelling about? Again try plain, clear English. The language accommodates this concept very well.
So, scrap religion as we know it and turn to magic mushrooms instead.
We've already discussed earlier that morality came before religion, not after.
Speaking of literalists ;P hahaha
I choose (yes) btw. and Not to be like Socrates and answer your question with another, but would you allow in your mind the possibility for mere speculation that thousands of years ago mushrooms were once deeply interwoven into religious ceremonies of many people's possibly even mine and your own ancestors?
PS. AM I the only idiot here who likes mushrooms? Or are my one sided conversations just a long smothering boon to not care to see proof in the pudding. OR is communication in this faceless cooky cut throat style a negligible form of human interaction. Where the humanities department comes off a little short considering how much we all shoot each other down to ironically talk about things to eachother in way that seems convincingly like someone is not just going bla bla bla but actually sharing a part of them selves. I think we all try to some extent play the part of the sleepless scientist or logistics professor or something with such an unyielding consideration to anything written by another human being unless it's apart of some major research effort.
I 'am a charlatan here, and we all can be because this is not apart of some end to cancer or aids research project. but I know people can take themselves too seriously when just a little bit feels good enough.
I was just trying to make sense of what you said...that seemed to be the TL;DR version.
IMHO religion has nothing to do with spirituality and everything to do with power and control. And money. Spiritual is interior; religion is exterior.
I like turtles. =)
Correct me if I am wrong, but you are high on something, DMT? or something else?
Shrooms? You are not even doing your "gish gallop" properly. Go to bed.
(read only if you're interested for yourself) ahm.. -Fortunately we get 'high' on DMT incrementally every night when we go to sleep because it is turned from serotonin and secreted by our pineal gland in dream sleep (the pineal gland 16th century philosopher, Rene Descartes thought was partly responsible for everything we perceive as his term for it was the seat of the soul because it was the only part of our brain past our cerebellum that was not divided by two hemispheres like the corpus callosum where the most creative psychological process's occur in every mammal) and it is even mentioned to exist in quantities in the spinal fluid. Mushrooms a (phosphorlized form of DMT once digested) has shown to not only to cure short to long term migraines but espically showing promises where an increase of visual acuity scientists like Fischer and Mckenna thought to be the most crucial part of the early hominid hunter gather's diet 100,000 years ago, increasing their likely hood to catch prey and see better in the night in small doses. In larger doses they found out it increased it not only aided spatial awareness, but may have contributed to the density of their minds after arriving in the African savanna where in their ceremonies grunt like sounds may have been formed however crude like a diamond in the rough eventually until they made these grunts, uniform- making language- psychedelics of course being the catalyst if you will. Later between waiting for their meals to as they held vigilently with their spears to only finding their minds wandering ever upward into the night's sky night after night until noticing one day they realized every few months each year they could find these mushrooms where at the time the iceage wouldn't easily allow one to know by fluctuations in relative temperatures. Eventually leading them to discover a calender system. Thus time and ritual were all in favor of supporting mushroom use and just as the euraisans were gathering the mold off barley to ingest erogtamine alkaloids (responsible for LSD like hallucinations) soon mushrooms may as well have been assimilated into an annual dietary tribal activity to induce sexual arousal and over all improve natural selection of their kin. Also Natural selection and the mushroom diet is a contributing theory as to how the neanderthals died out, by simple comparison. Anthropologists in the Shibobo tribes etc. in the Amazon noticed that the ENITRE tribes would take mushrooms or Ayahuasca (DMT and MAOI containing tea) together, men, woman, and yes... children. They noticed as a result of this brew that connected them to the cosmos, the jungle, but most importantly eachother. They as a result worked together in harmony, there was almost no crime between these people grew and grew and as their traditions to lock arms and all sing around a fire, they considered this Their BEST medicine. DMT is one of the most power psychedelics IN THE WORLD, it's in your brain, when you sleep when your thoughts just -click- and when you die, a surge of this potent compound is released creating the near death experience where one is visited by or encounters angels, or god.
Dear Kateye, in regards to our earlier conversation; Speaking of Literalists. hhaha, but, Morality hand in hand with mortality are inseparable not by religion, but by love.
Achem's Razor- It was 3 o clock when I made that last message so depending on your frame of hour, I was not sleepy, but I understand the inference 'to go to bed' peevishly as your way to denounce people, in some arrogant snobbish turn of nose or cold shouldering way. Instead I would tell people to WAKE UP!! you're sending people the wrong message. As such sleepiess is contagious. :O <--yawn
Robert Tallen do you normally use the word 'Drivel' in every life? XD Why don't you use Enlgish. I imagine our conversations would go around and around, will some one please Translate Spanish for our fellow Roberto. Adios! :)
So in that I say that it was almost a pleasure, listening to Kateye, Robert Tallen will be here every night like he usually is from all the history of this chatroom. BTW this movie is lame, I like Religulous because it has some humor to it. see you on the dark side of the moon as it were
"Fortunately we get 'high' on DMT incrementally every night when we go to sleep because it is turned from serotonin and secreted by our pineal gland in dream sleep "
wrong. or at least no proof.
and Mckenna is not a real scientist. he is a mystic.
I was gonna bite my unlearned tongue on this confab but because you mentioned this -
"I propose instead that religion serves as a culture-buff, ensuing close knit bonds stitching people with ceremonial stewardship to hold people together by stories, to dream, to imagine." (Russ101)
Then, I must say -
Sounds nice and oh so beautiful if you say it fast and don't stop to think even for a nano-second about what you just said - let's restate it is thusly - if I may - which I shall...
"I propose instead that religion serves as a cultural-chasm, ensuring divisiveness ripping asunder people with ceremonial slaughter to tear people apart by fear and fiction, to not dream. to not imagine." TMcd
(note - I sense you should write a book at The Overlook Hotel.)
Enjoy...
Okay that was a mildly enjoyed but well learned :) amalgam you made of many people throughout history and their psychological distortions due to religious thinking which say the radicalists of the middle east is under such spells, frankly their people have fight written allover thier blood it's no wonder that as a whole after thousands of years of continual slaughter they wouldn't try to justify themselves. Most people fight over power. So I ask you to take a close look with me into history and war for a second.
The revoltutionary between 1775 and 1783 between the British and American was fought for an idea that seemed to be the only way America could ever escape these puritans and live under a new host of ideas, one won with the desire for freedom would involve the seperation from control of the church, the constitution, amendments, bill of rights, and finally a treaty... last but not least- blood.
Infact blood and a mixture of sweat have always served as the sacrificial scaffolding for any major resolution in human history. one could almost see war analgously like an impregnation of ideals where physical force is the only sure way to reinstate not only their language but their favorite intellectual values of government, (not much unlike the way religion used to govern a people who also agreed with the religious institutions as opposed to tyrants and power.)
in 1965 America went to Korea, after we saw Korea enslaving it's people under an evil communist dictatorship quickly immerging on the scene. after two world wars in the same half century everyone was getting kind of worried, espeically about atomic bombs and so The americans galvanised themselves to go and take down those evil commies once and for all.
The 30 year war in 1618 through 1648 which listed of the most causalties of all 'relgious wars' (since they historians had nothing else to call it) listing upto around 11,000,000. historians have no real idea how or why it was started between the holy roman empire and western europe but it ended up over Catholics and Luthernist protestants taking land from only where every church stood in their way. Most people died of famine, but religious tensions held over a few hundred years mounted and everyone for some reason were against eachother for what they believed. But from a historical perspective it actually just turned out to be the business as usual type of age old rival ship.
But I thought wait wait wait, what about peaceful religions? Just becuase people meet once a week to dance, sing or talk about their lives in community place does that mean they all secretly want to wage war on other people?
The União do Vegetal (UDV) is a religious christian based ceremonial gathering held in what is called The Santo Daime church where people seek a specific relgious theme their, and that is the Ayahuasca ceremony where plants containing DMT and MAOI alkaloids, made into a tea, called Ayahuasca is consumed by people world wide for religious purposes like expanding self awareness. The santo damie ceremonies are guided under the constitution legally, once started, a people who have a different idea of whats right and wrong called the Drug Enforcement Adminitstration or DEA have been trying to bring down the fun ever since. However ignorant to the RFRA, and UN's Convention of Psychotropic Substance deemed it legal in 2006, Although by federal law it could be regulated, but the UDV chose to go back to their humble meetings still expanding their consciousness to this day.
So Teddy, I want to say that if EVERYTHING that people believe in could be upholstered by some religious beliefs I think it's best to repsect what everybody believes, not always what they do, but because there is some truth to eitherside of the same coin. But no I don't believe in war. But war is never made for the same purpose but, our lives just get tied up in it. weather you're in the middle east or the suburbs on a rainy day reading this unhansomely jotted history lesson that serves to the fact, war weather disguised under fanatic religious devotion or you are fighting over bat turd as in the mid 1800's war will carry many faces, but somewhere there is you and I in history saying how stupid people can be for massavreing anybody for any reason. Thank god we live in a world where such problems are tens of thousands of miles away.
it's insulting to my sanity Ted, that war for any means dosen't let me sleep any easier on this planet, but anyway to stick together even if it means going with your girl friend to church despite how much you dislike it helps you feel more connected, phew I've done that.... but every now and then I go into a church where the teeangers room is and I take them out of their books and into the real world where I say things similar to what you said. The next day I would reaarange their sign, so I 'am not some preacher or anything
However much to what you argue I 'am not ignorant to the fact the crusades did happen. witch burning. I like to remain positive about what myths architypes fabled heroic deeds and other sorts of things certain Religions can offer needless of saying how hypocritical they are indeed. Life is far too deep and interesting I won't even stop to think, this world is full of murders and try to run and hide to live inside a bubble
Again, what are you rambling on about? Again, try plainEnglish.
Hi Metacrock, I'm back ! I stand in awe of your knowledge of astronomy & physics, & your ability to reconcile all of this with a book of (mostly) early iron age mythology. I admit I read the entire bible only once as a very young man, over 65 years ago. But, as a bookworm, I have read extensively Greek & Roman mythology. Also Roman history & a number of bios on Emperor Constantine. All of this lead me to view the bible as simply a compilation of mythology covering a vast area & many centuries. I am still struck by the fact that there is nothing NEW in Xianity. Constantines' council at Nicaea simply threw together all of this & insisted that these few hundred men, out of about 1800 who were invited, agree to accept the MAJORITY ruling on the contents of the 'new' testament. My heart goes out to you being shackled to that one book. I wish you good luck in any departure from it.
Basiclally you're right, except for the Council at Nicea by which I take it you mean the first one in 325 A.D. According to the records we have, nothing about the canon was discussed--and nothing needed to be as the New Testament canon had been pretty much set about 75 years before around the middle of the third century.
While I regard the bible as you do, I find biblical scholarship fascinating. Are you familiar with Bart Ehrman?
From one bookworm to another.
I like religious people, they find hope in bad situations and they're always nice to me. my rational mind is a curse, religion offers answers to the questions the rational folk just cant answer.
we may think that religion is "ridiculous" or even strange, but religion offer simplicity that i sometimes wish i had.
I hate religion and everything it stands for--and it's never been known to answer a single question yet.
Questions answered in a religious sense, "why is this happening to me?" Answer: Because god a has a plan for.
LOL I await the day someone says "Because science has a plan for you"
Then you'll be waiting for eternity. If it starts "having a plan" than it ceases to be science.
? - Which god would that be of the countless deities extinct and extant?
LOL - I don't await the day someone says, "Because science has a plan for me." Science doesn't because it is not within its purview!
It's only an answer if it is actually true, not if it is made up. Lies don't qualify as answers. How about Buddhism? You are here to break the cycle of rebirth and enter nirvana. No God there. Still similar to your answer in that it is a made up story. It's all made up. Get a clue.
I loved it!!!! There is no sense is trying to have a rational, intellectual, honest or objective conversation with the religious right. The best way to show them how ridiculous their religion is is to make a satire out of their religious beliefs based on a contradictory, ethnocentric, genocidal bible
Why is religion ridiculous?
And show me one satire please .D
For one, it is based on faith.
This is a series of short animations that each try to make a point about the Christian belief system from the perspective of satire. It is executed very well. I laughed through most of it.
The one thing that I have noticed, granted only from my exposure to atheist interviews and videos like this one, is the focus on a God that doesn't exist. I think for any Christian who truly wants to be saved, that atheism is probably the first step towards freedom, like AA is for recovering alcoholics. But, being an atheist seems like it holds its same barriers to truly being free of religious barriers if you stay in it for a long time.
I liken it to being 8 when I found out there was no Santa Claus, and then the Easter Bunny, Tooth fairy and the whole beloved cast went from something so real to something that had I had to pass through that was like disbelief, anger and betrayal, and finally acceptance. The difference between my experience with these wonderful fictional beings of my youth, is that I didn't spend the rest of my life trying to prove that they didn't really exist. And I certainly didn't use my belief system to make sure that nobody else ever believed in them again. I distinctly remember instead, that I had now entered a level of being more of an elder (at 8) and a guardian of the secret.
I look at religion and they myths and all of the glorious fictitious characters the same now. I just simply feel like I am now an elder.
I still enjoy watching Charlie Brown Christmas, A Christmas Story and all the other holiday shows. I enjoyed this too. It is the child-mind of me that I can still have when I want it.
Just an aside...I don't remember ever believing the 'santa claus, easter bunny, tooth fairy' stories as a child...I never went through a 'stages of grief' of losing those beliefs.
Maybe I was a born skeptic, or maybe I just understood that my parents were using a gentle fantasy to create a shared experience. I upheld my role as 'delighted child' to help create it, along with other recurring events such as going to church on sundays, or long drives in the country for picnics, or birthday celebrations. As I grew older, my role changed from delighted child to supporting sibling so the younger ones could have the same fun.
Does anyone *really* remember actually believing in santa clause, the easter bunny or the tooth fairy? This is a serious question, because for some reason, I've never thought anyone actually did. Knowing as a child that adults create fantasies for children, I always assumed everyone else knew this as a child.
If so, then I guess I can understand why they would be so upset if their god was included in the cast of 'no longer to be believed' stories.
@Kateye70
I think I remember when I was a very young child that I took the story about Saint Nicolas (the origin of Santa Claus) that is taught in my country to be true. I wasn't very much older when I started to have doubts, still I felt a bit tricked when my parents admitted it wasn't true when I was about 10.
You had to find out sometime and it might have been just as well before you reached your teens.
Maybe I had reached my teens, but no serious harm was done.
Watching it again I can't help but laugh at some of the sketches in this series. I recommend it to anyone who had a bad day at the office. ; )
Was it the same type of fantasy story American children are told? Because I remember reading a version of the St. Nicholas story that sounded like a good man taking care of his neighbors, and it seemed perfectly reasonable to me.
I always assumed the "every child in every house gift' thing wasn't real, though. Maybe living in a tropical country and seeing Santa jump off a helicopter in khaki shorts threw the whole thing off kilter, lol.
The story told in the Netherlands has a lot of similarities with Santa Claus. Some details are very different: Santa lives somewhere up north, Saint Nicholas comes from 'Spain', etc. The story is based on the bishop in Mira taking care of come children who were about to be sold as slaves, if I remember right.
I think in essence all these stories are very much the same. I read a long time ago there is a story that is told in Italy about a benevolent witch giving presents too.
I could never have imagined Santa in khaki, even though I made a cartoon with him in cycling outfit. : ))
I, for one, enjoy being an "Atheistic Communist".
This is catering to bigotry. People who know nothing bout history make vast generalizations like "That very same church didn't have anything against KILLING people just a few centuries back." Atheistic communists killed one hundred million people not even a century ago. Atheist are stupid. they are not open to new ideas they are in horror of new ideas. The only thing they ca appreciate is worship of scinece. They don't know much about that. I've seen atheist who called Karl Popper a "creationist fundamentalist" and dismiss him because "he's just a philosopher." atheism has bred a totalitarian movement that seeks to dominate cutler through bulling religious people and fuming hatred.
So you're saying that unless a person believes in a being whose existence cannot be proved and of whom he knows nothing (and nobody else does either) and of whom everyone has a different idea and defends his idea, in some cases, with death and destruction, in other words, abrogates his intelligence, he's stupid. No, it's you who are stupid--and let me add, from your statements about reliance on science and the alleged decimation by "atheistic communists," ignorant. If you're one of those "religious people" who feels bullied and hated by those with the knowledge and intelligence to see through your twaddle and deception, you've simply sown what you have reaped.
"Having an insiders perspective of Christianity, I use my skills as a producer to stir the pot of debate and, hopefully, make it uncomfortable for anyone to be a mere spectator in the arena of ideas."
- The Author
I'd say theThinker has done the job, then, eh? I( actually think the opening is really clever. I don't where you got the idea that it was attacking churches, the opening is listing bible translations, making a point that "God's" attempt to enlighten the world was a bit shoddy for a supposedly all powerful, omnipotent superbeing. And I see the point. I mean if god is everywhere, why not appear to everyone or turn up in a more useful location or speak in all languages?
It's a bit of a naff God that only does miracles where there's only a few people, if any, to witness them, or needs humans to do the translation, when it speaks and even then, God's "word" is so vague that thousands of interpretations are possible, so many that some people read words of peace while others find Calling and excuse for hate, homophobia, genocide, slavery and so on.
It's a pretty good series, given that the author is trying to raise questions and spark debate and the questions are aimed at everyone.
Just the opening is really dumb.
Criticizing Christianity for having so many versions while directing your attack to some church's interpretations. If anything this is an attack against the church.
Also against taking any holy book literally.
I don't believe in "god" but this documentary is stupid, appealing to "atheists" who think they are better/smarter than others.
wait....we arent?
Not better, just *smarter* ^^
Oh come on. Of course, there are (notice: not "they are") smarter people! And atheists these days generally (!) tend to have a much more open mind towards new knowledge and a wider outlook on life. We might be born equal in rights, but we are clearly not born equal in intellectual capabilities. And whereas some things are biologically predetermined, others we CHOOSE for ourselves, and some of those choices can be very limiting in their nature. Religion is one of those limitations, preventing a person to strive for more, satisfying the hunger for digging deeper, because there is no need to, all the "answers" are there in one book. And of course, if it's written there then it must be true. But if people stop QUESTIONING, progress shall halt and we will get nowhere.
And what is so wrong with verbally (!!!) attacking the concept of the church? Are we not free to speak our mind AND provide actual ARGUMENTS that support that point of view? That very same church didn't have anything against KILLING people just a few centuries back, it had nothing against making people who thought differently SUFFER. That church that divided and NEVER united. Nowadays, there are still scandals surrounding highly religious people who see nothing wrong in beating up a person just because s/he is homosexual, "Jesus said so!". Is that a "smart" thing to do? Do you see atheists or hear about atheists burning churches and torturing priests just because they believe in God? I shall say one thing - LOL.
you people HAVE TO know this : The intro background music are Hindu Gods Chants. I am an Indian and a Theist. Hence, the maker of this video has started the video from believing in God. Hahaha... This is Epic
In other words, because the video started with Hindu chants, its maker must be a theist. Didn't they teach you about non sequiturs in school?
The question that arises off the top of my head is - Did the maker of this video know that the music from the start of this vid was in fact Hindu related or was it serendipity - or as another poster said, simply a non sequitur? Me? I don't know. And I ain't gonna look it up - but you should.
that is the most ignorant thing I've ever read LOLLLLLL. I listen to Cat Stevens. That doesn't make me a Muslim convert or a traitor to my country... why do i even have to explain this.. ugh *tries so hard not to insult on personal level*
That is meant to be sarcastically dramatic. Thats why the soundtrack of the Matrix
You guys have stated the bible has known forgeries. Can you provide links to actual hard evidence of such? (without providing just links to lectures/lecturers)
Respectfully..
Sarcastic_Drew
i will list just one for now mark 16:9-16:20 are not in the earlier writings. the longer ending does not show up til later in the second century. i know you asked not to include links (and i won't) but i suggest you watch or read up explanations by Bart Ehrman
And Ehrman goes into great detail about this.
Read "Forged" by Bart Ehrman.
Equally respectfully...
The evidence for forgeries, additions, deletions, rewordings, etc., is readily available in many places, and provided by reputable biblical scholars who share their findings with the rest of us, such as Bart Ehrman, as mentioned by over the edge. There are whole institutes devoted to biblical studies, run by theologians.
If you do the research for yourself, you could pursue the evidence that is most of value to you. I believe the popular works are heavily referenced, so you would be able to see why a particular scholar drew whatever conclusions he or she did.
The most phenomenological approach if you really want it is....go to several churches and interview people, read their minds, get a grip on their world view than compare and see whether they believe in the list you described. Christianity is christians not institutions.. Institutions may pose as christianity....is all the masses see any way isn't it?
aren't your being naive...??
there is no proof for skeptics....Jesus faced this over and over and over..he did miracles...miracles happen a lot in hospitals every day..that doesn't convince a skeptic...
When you say "you know nothing" you sound so arrogant..you talk like you know ANYthing about me..what I know , what I don't.
I didn't say skeptics didn't know things. All I said is spiritual things are not understood simply by cold formal logics and that's there are other ways of knowing.
What spiritual things are you talking about, religion, ghosts, demons, devils, something you need an exorcist for, or all the invisible 28,000,000 gods in recorded history. All in the mind nowhere else, not real!
The phrase is taken from the bible (Paul's writings) "spiritual things are discerned spiritually"...so no, I am not talking about the greek pantheon or the myriad of statutes they called God. I am talking about a real Jesus (Have you read Josephus? He lived around Jesus's times and left an extensive work) I am talking about the spiritual/moral nature that christianity brought to the world. love enough to surrender your life (Jesus), chirstian values and virtues. I am talking about spirituality as defined or advanced by the apostles and the revelation...not mystical spirituality. I am talking about the Messiah whose coming was predicted even in years (look up Daniel 7). There were many prophecies pointing out the time and manner by which the Messiah would come, what his domain is all about and what he would bring to earth and humanking. Chrstianity is a power for good. I agree with you that throughout history many supposed christians were all about power and domination. If you read the various volumes of Phillip Schaff's History of the Church or D'Augigne (not sure about spelling)..you will find plenty of new information. More recently you will find Luther, Calvin, Tyndale, John Huss, and many others, that as I mentioned payed with their lives, for wanting to bring people from a fictitious, superstitious kind of christianity to a real one. I do insist in one point: Spiritual things are not discerned merely by explaining and showing. It is experiential first, then a lot of things make sense...and a lot of other things become obsolete. Deep down it is all about love, the deep love of God, who will die to turn a man's way around, like a prodigal son who eventually returns to his father's house.
The Christian values as you espouse them are no more than a font of self-perpetuating ignorance and supersition, not a power for good.
As they merely harken back to the Old Testament, New Testament prophecies are a self-serving joke which is hard to believe that a grown person takes seriously, except one who is wilfully ignorant of biblical history and history in general.
This wall of text and your two previous ones are insults to the intelligence.
Josephus?? come come now, known forgery.
I asked for proof, the onus is on you, you gave no proof all at just circular logic, does not matter from which source, that is all you religious basically have.
You are better off to give us your view of CA (cosmological argument) which will lead nowhere also.
Some parts of his history are certainly of questionable provenance and, quite frankly, I wouldn't trust anyone as treacherous as he, but I wouldn't call Josephus exactly a forgery.
Yes, after I entered the post I thought of rescinding some, probably not all of Josephus is forgery.
Let's just say he's unreliable and biased.
I think I get your logics now!
You decide what is authoritative right? LOL ....good luck,
By the way how me how animals evolved from primitive life forms...but remember..I want THE EVIDENCE okay?
No! I do not have to show you anything, you are the one that is making the claims!... Prove your claims!
You want to know how animals evolved from primitive life forms and you demand evidence of this? Try reading some real books on biology--and they don't have to be textbooks--and not that greasy creationist crap.
explorerguy
what is the "moral nature that christianity brought to the world"? please state these specific morals that didn't exist before? also please explain if Christianity is the source for our morals how do you explain the slavery,genocide,incest,infanticide and so on that is not only condoned in the christian writings but sometimes demanded?
"I am talking about the spiritual/moral nature that christianity brought to the world."
Have you read any of the teachings of the Buddha? He brought similar ascetic teachings to the world.
He lived several centuries earlier and not that far from Palestine--there were regular trade routes from India going both east and west. Palestine itself is a trade route center, and ideas flow along such routes.
There's nothing particularly new or special about christian spirituality or morality.
Achem has every right to be arrogant when confronted with your ignorant jibberish, for it's the uneducated going up against the educated and as such his indignation is more than justified. At least he has learned something through study and logic, which is more than I can say for you.
And don't try the miracle ploy. You couldn't prove it when you first brought it up a month ago and you can't prove it now--and quoting from the bible is merely circular, so don't try it.
The "miracles happen a lot in hospitals every day" ploy which you also attempted when you first began posting didn't work then and it's not going to work now.
Spirituality=fraud=you.
Religion needs to be qualified. In Christianity religion is to be like God is: merciful and kind, long suffering, loving, gentle, just, fair. That's what being a christian is about. Many political people took hold of the name, and lacking in these virtues they compensated for it with big temples, ostentatious celebrations, sociopolitical influence and power. Running along side there were always the sincere and pious christians who hid from the "Holy" Roman empire. Those carried the bible sown inside their clothes, and lived fringe lives and never took part on that 'popular' religion. They were severely persecuted (albingenses, Hugenots in Piemont in Italy and France and many other places. They were accused of heretics and burned. Even great reformers payed with their lives. In the name of "god" they killed and did worse than non christians and pagans. Now the ignorance is so great in society and the confusion so overwhelming. People accuse christians of doing all this. Everything is discussed without going back to the real facts, ignoring the true history of christianity which by the way is not the history of the Roman church.
@explorerguy:
That is the trouble with you religee's, you never let it rest, you keep on yammering about your religion and how you think that you know what everybody else thinks, or as you say knows
what is in other peoples hearts.
You know nothing, that is what you know, most of us, you might as well call complete sceptics, don't give a rats A$$ about dragging on your inconsequential arguments. Show us proof! then maybe we will talk.
Come back after you've read some books on religion, history and the bible written by real scholars.
Everything is about control and power even religion. To be religious I must work toward or exude a particular conduct to give glory to my god. That means control over my habits and behaviours to achieve particular outcomes thus being good. If I tell you an idea and convince you of it I have control over your mind and thoughts that gives me power. If I go to work and do a job I need to have control of my environment and my thought processes thus empowering me to do the job. Whatever is not in my control I say it's in gods control. People pursue what is good because it's beneficial to them. If you're a criminal and get caught you go to jail. Whatever people do they always attach the idea I did it because I'm good. There are a million reasons why someone makes one decision. For example, I go to work because: I'm selfish I want money, I want to help people, I feel like I'm forced by society, I feel like it's why god put me here, I feel like if I don't I'm a burden on society, I do it to feel a sense of personal purpose not caring about serving others just my ideal of myself. What people do is suppress the bad reasons for why they do things then simply state the good reasons why they do things knowing that there are other motives for their behaviour. This is just another way in which people like to have control of their view of the universe. We're all power hungry to tell everyone what to do. If someone imposes a system of power over someone they simply create another system of power to compensate. For example, If I fire you from your job and you have no money you might change your life philosophy to I don't need money to be happy. You see I took away your control and power and you came up with a new control of things giving you a sense of empowerment, I don't need money. If you have control over your emotions you have peace and if you have control over your environment not disturbing the peace in others then you have created peace in the world. The only way to have control or power over something without disturbing their peace is by being a servant to that power. If by reading the bible a person gets a set of precepts to live by giving them a sense of control over there lives empowering them with purpose why ruin that. All people do is chase good thoughts all day long anyway, everything is the pursuit of a good thought. But instead of chasing good thoughts all day long we should be doing good deeds. By finding peace in ourselves and creating peace in the world we have created a utopia, heaven on earth and you don't need to be religious to appreciate that.
And he's trying to dissuade Christians to remain Christians or what? Sounds like a very restricted and narrow view of a book such as the bible. It is like someone that never grew up and interprets a text without the depth not reading the big picture or the spiritual nature of its essence. Yet..that's what you get with that kind of reading of the Bible or any book religious or not. He is obviously not being able to go beyond the concrete level of things...should I blame his church? Maybe ? ultimately it is his responsibility for viewing things with those filters disguised as sophistication of thinking. It could well be the opposite because as Pasteur would put : "Truth favors the prepared mind"
@explorerguy,
Sounds like a very restricted and narrow view of a book such as the bible
And which kind of view the Bible deserves?
A book that almost half is not written by those who claim to have written it. Half of the New Testament is actually forged.
A book that is edited countless of times because of political and mass repression reasons.
A book that for centuries justified slavery, murder, sexism, segregation etc, and in some societies still does.
It is like someone that never grew up and interprets a text without the depth not reading the big picture or the spiritual nature of its essence.
What is there to be interpreted spiritually and in depth? Sermon on the Mount perhaps? Did you interpret it right? Can you enlighten us with your in depth interpretations please?
Speaking of forged, have you read the book of the same name by Bart Ehrman? If not, it's well worth the time.
I am baffled by your comment. Half of the NT forged? Where did you get this from? Were you ever a committed Christian or believed or followed the bible? If you were not...I am sorry you may not really have the insider's understanding of the power to transform lives of that book, and that worldwide.
Yes the Bible can only be understood by people who are capable of apprehending things that are just not perceived only by reason (though reason is part of it), if the only means you have to understand the world and life is demonstration than you cannot interpret the bible correctly. Actually it will not make any sense to you. You either have experienced Christiany in your heart and mind or you haven't. And if you haven't..it will remain a mystery to you. You may try to apply human logics to 'figure it out' You will get no wehre. Christianity is not a book. It is an experience between you and your Maker, based in His revelation to you as a person, in sense a mystical but not mythical experience. There is no room for negotiation here and a divine revelation is what it is...a divine revelation. The Bible is not a science compendium.
You demonstrate ignorance about culture when you say the bible concdoned slavery. Do you actually know what Paul wrote about slavery? The Bible is so sociological compendium neither was the calling of the church to social reforms. The reform comes from above and it is spiritual in nature. If you do not know what I am talking about it is just because you are outside of it..and if you remain there I am afraid you will not know.
You know as much about the history of the bible as you know about Christianity as you know about science, which is to say nothing. Furthermore, you are conceited enough to believe that you are privy to some insider's understanding.
Spirituality=faith=fraud. People like you disgust me.
This is a fine statement coming from someone who is as ignorant of the history of the bible as the times in which it was written. In other words, you lack the basic tools to discuss "its essence."
Before you can treat what you term the "spiritual nature" you must prove that such an entity exists and this you cannot do. So the concrete is really all that matters.
In sum, considering your lack of education, you have your nerve telling anyone how to interpret the bible.
Robby, that is another tactic that fits the agenda of a Marxist...shut down free speech. To all you others that read this, the religion Atheism may have been around or established as long as other religions, but they have never been able to form any foothold until the Marxism in which you all fall around. Calling me an abomination is in fact HATE speech by the way. The person that wrote phrase towards me is saying that he detest or hates those people of faith. To detest is to hate and to hate is to embrace evil...period! Proving my point again. While I support you your right to call me whatever you feel is necessary to soothe your growing anger of being bested, it fits into the Marxist philosophy of hate everything and anything that does not agree with you and attempt to silence them one way or another. Atheism and the elimination of Free Speech are the two foundational points that make up Marxism. Your claim...there is no god so shut up...and if you don't, we will shut you up. Isn't that what you were trying to do Robby...shut me up by turning me into a moderator? You know, I would never do that to you. In fact, I am thankful that atheist are exposing themselves for who they are and what they stand for. Your free speech will always be protected by me...even if you want to openly threaten me. I really do not care.
Here is another point that needs to be readdressed. Man is the only species on earth that exterminates itself through abortion. Atheism is the sole backers of and pushers of abortion. No other religion...or belief system supports it.
For all of you that think you are clever enough to change definitions of terms to suite your argument. Here are a couple that definitively makes your argument bogus. Look them up yourselves
"Belief- is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true."
"Faith -is confidence or trust in a person or entity. Also defined as firm belief in something for which there is no proof"
By this definition, your atheism is a belief system as well as a system of faith. It is so by the fact that your belief is in man and your faith that there is no god...in which you can not prove. These two things together make up religion. Your atheism is in fact a religion and it really does not matter how you little people try to spin it. Thus...the truth be known.
One last note, I don't make threats. Making a suggestion does not constitute a threat. Only a Marxist and devout atheist would try to redefine that term threat to better serve their needs. You all missed the point behind that suggestion anyway...which does not surprise me. You all have proven my point to the deceit that atheism is.
I wish, as I had started with my comments, that you people would have an honest and decent debate, but your resorted to name calling and childish behavior. I then had to school you and treat you all as you act...especially you Robby. You are the biggest child of them all. You are a person that will never learn from your mistakes. Even now, I can sense the hatred you have for me as you read this. Good luck with that hatred pal.
It is true...I never will change any of your minds. Not trying to anyway. It all started as an opposing view and you all wanted to shut that down. You know what, it is really a win win situation for me. Even if your religion is right and the belief that there is no god, then in my end days there will be nothing to worry about anyway. Since I am a person of devout faith and decency to decent people and nature, I am covered both ways.
mysteryman7
you stated ""Belief- is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true." i as an atheist do not believe in a god or gods. what is my premise? what is my proposition? how is a lack of belief a belief? is not playing baseball a sport by your definition? also you stated "Faith -is confidence or trust in a person or entity. Also defined as firm belief in something for which there is no proof"what person or entity am i putting my trust in as an atheist? as i stated atheism is a lack of belief. so what is "belief in something for which there is no proof? that i hold? again myself and others have asked you questions please try to answer them.
If he can't get my name correct, you certainly can't expect him to be able to answer your questions.
robertallen1
i agree. but by purposely getting your name wrong does show that he is more interested in an emotionally charged statements then he is in factual ones.
You are half right. I did do intentionally call Robby by his childish name on purpose, but I am a man that is deeply committed to as much fact as I can know. What I do not know I leave to faith. I have been places, but I am not really here to talk about me.
you answered your own question. The words "belief" and
"faith" have definitions that are universally agreed upon. You are claiming that Atheism is nothing...a non belief. There can be no such thing because to believe that something does not exist is still a belief. To believe that something that you can not prove is still considered faith. You can not prove that God does not exist becasue you can not answer all the questions...especially the the one that pertains to the fundamental question why? Together the definition of belief an faith make up religion. There is really no other way to spin it. it is what it is. You all should be OK with it. It is what you believe. There that word is again...what you believe and you have faith that what you believe is true...faith again, but you can not prove it. That my friend is religion. It does not matter to me if you hate me for pointing it out. I did not make the definitions up and the way things are communicated through men. You can't have it both ways and claim that a Christian goes on faith that God exist...and not prove it...call it faith, and have an atheist claim that opposite and still not prove it and say it is something different than faith. It just does not stand up to argument. Just come out admit that atheism is in fact a belief system of unproven faith because that is what it is.
mysteryman7
ok i will try this one more time. i do not and have not claimed god doesn't exist. i have read the bible and personally do not see the story as true. it is not a belief it is a lack of belief. i do not believe in Santa is that a religion? or Bigfoot or leprechauns is everything i don't think is true a religion? and speaking of proof the burden of proof lies with the person making the positive claim. so here is your chance. no word games just the actual proof. do you have any? again i asked many questions about claims made by you just so i know do you plan on answering them?
I look at the bible in the the context of history. Take the book of Daniel for instance. There is little doubt among scholars that he existed. Is what he wrote inspired by God...or just his observations of the kings that he advised? If you know the history of Cyrus, Nebuchadnezzar, Darius, and the other kings mentioned over a 40 year span, you will see that archeological finds have confirmed the stories.
No one denies that Cyrus lived, Darius or even Alexander the Great. If you know the history of what they did, you will see that Daniel is simply saying that what he is witnessing will be repeated again in history...down the road with the exception that this time it will not be someone who is religiously tolerant like Cyrus...who was a Zoroaster or Alexander who followed the Greek Mythology. They both conquered by leaving in place practicing religions. That is why the Jews saw Cyrus as a liberator rather than a conqueror. These stories are not only said in the bible but in the scrolls concerning the conquest of Cyrus. Daniel was an adviser to kings...much like David Axlerod or Carl Rove is and were to presidents. They are behind the scenes pulling the strings.
If you understand what Cyrus did to conquer the Babylonians...without bloodshed and you look how Alexander used the same tactics, you may see a trend in what is happening around the world today. I will give you a hint, they collapsed the kingdoms around the ports of the Mediterranean. They controlled the Nile Rivers...which originate in Uganda and Ethiopia. Control the water and you control the area. Control the ports and the entrances in which commerce flows and you control everything. Even though I do in fact believe in the bible, I first look at what as written as a man, what is the strategy behind it. Remember...just like in modern times with Hitler, being an adviser to him or any other king, you have to put things in context that makes him want to believe that he comes to his own conclusions. Doing it anyway different gets you killed quickly. In my humble opinion, that is why the bible is written in such a coded way. It is really meant to provoke deep thought like anything of a philosophical nature. I have read passages many, many times...single lines of it, looking for verification in history as well as tactical maneuvers that match what we know today to be brilliant strategy in warfare.
I can not, nor am I out to convince anyone that the bible is true. For me, as a historian and a military tactician that has been to some of the most dreadful places on earth, I look at what makes sense to me as a man, as if it was me fighting to win a war, be it a war between freedom and slavery or good and evil. All that unanswered stuff...like intuition, having a feeling about something before it happens, being on the same wavelength, love, hate...all of those emotions. There is so much to the puzzle, we as men can only hope to emulate it through digits of zero and one. As crisp as the high def picture is because men can make those pixels smaller and smaller, it still does not come close to the real analog wavelength of reality.
I have not read all of your post over the edge because I do not want to be let down if I find insults. Good thoughtful questions deserve good thoughtful answers. They may not always be correct, but if they are sincere, then they are worth listening to.
If you ever decide to read the bible, look at it on a mans point of view and historical context first. There is certainly a reason for everything including your life and this conversation. It is always about growing mentally and spiritually.
trollololololol
Epicurus or achems
why do i get the feeling this mysteryman? has posted under a different name? i thought that almost since the beginning. nut now i am pretty sure seeing as he called Achems just "razor". weak i know but add that to the fact he said to robertallen "I know you Robby, I have faced you many times in the past" seems pretty much a sure thing. i think it is dishonest to use multiple names and if you could help me out here it would be appreciated
@over the edge,
Even if he was here before, now he is using different IP address and different email address.
But, for sure he's a troll. A good one. He is not here to politely discuss the philosophical questions of faith and atheism.
He is here to nitpick with the commenters on a personal level, as if they're the ENEMY. Trying to provoke an anger, emotional response etc.
Remember, No.1 rule to combat trolls: DNFTT - DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS.
Vlatko
thanks. i shouldn't need the reminder but obviously i did. and you are right will sit the rest of this one out.
amen.
Not true
Vlatko, I am assuming a troll is someone that just goes and surfs the web for things to cause trouble. Truth be known, I watched the documentary because I was curious on what it took for someone to lose their faith after so many years of belief. I personally saw a lot of good points on how that could happen, but I also saw a lot of missing facts about the other side...the no faith part. I made some suggestions, not to start a debate, but simply to make a conscious participant, take note. I had no idea that I would get responses that I did...but I did. Since I like an honest, intellectual and cool headed debate, I will have that with you or anyone willing. I think anything is misguided when it is on the terms of being only one sided....especially when it comes to man. That is my justification for my comments.
There is a reason man is feared by every creature on earth. For me personally, that is why I put my own faith higher than man because it is always a let down in the end when man does things like cut the fins off Great White Sharks to make soup and throws the rest back or kills all the buffalo nearly making them extinct because they want to starve the natives. You take your pick, there are many to chose from. Troll...hardly not. It is an honest debate. Does man really have the best intentions for mankind? History says no, that is whey people believe in God. They see the horrors of man and deep down everyone knows it, but is afraid to admit that they may not be completely in charge of their own fate.
@mysteryman7,
Okay if you say so. Just stick to the comment policy.
Yes...stick to the comment policy. That should be the same for everyone across the board I would think.
If you are so interested in "the Higgs Boson", watch and then share your wisdom on the "what is the Higgs boson?" doc. And then maybe you will get your facts straight. Otherwise you are wasting pixel space.
As Vlatko says he is a good troll, must of went to trolling school, we have even had some 13 year olds that duped us religee busters, the TDF 4, lol.
The ones that we blew out of here have different IP addy's, so he probably is not a reincarnation.
Are you young and therefore have a bit to learn?- if so I'll let it pass as rites of passage. If you are older, try a little bit more 'cause your thoughts are fractured - even me a blazing heart says this -"tho' I can follow your delivery on a thought by thought footing I lose you in your lack of nexus." My best guess is that you should carry on - you have a good mind trying to find a home. Intellectualism is not difficult because it is coded in... whereas art...
Yes, a good mind does need a good stable body. A body and a mind should know geography, north, south, east and west, so when it goes to these places and finds not what it is looking for or anticipated, it can return to a place it remembers as secure and safe and take note of the lessons that brought him round circle.
I must say i accept and if not believe a lot of what you write in the last 12 comments...
You are obviously not 13yrs old.
You are not the first to post your belief in God and have an army come shooting at you, then you responds accordingly and then the battle gets ugly, and then you make an effort to smooth the ground.
I have seen it many times (may be you tried it before ...who care, it's allowed)
I am not a religious God believer, i believe God is to become, only has been talked about for eons. God has always been the infinite potential of our mind (sort of like we are pregnant of it), for God to be is to be as the true union of all minds, if ever birth is to be.
In my world, this world only exist because we say it does, we are taught from second 1 it does anbd that is repeated until we go with it.
Now who can argue with this...as you would need to have the conciousness of a litlle tiny tiny baby to do so.
az
Azilda, you are a good person, I can tell. Acceptance of anything is always your choice and I would not have it any other way. If someone just insisted showing only one side of a coin, you would never see the other side and you would be left wondering what the other side looked like. When you see it, you can decide if the picture on one side is brighter and more vibrant than the other. I can not make that decision for you but if all the details of both sides are not shown, then how can people make the best judgement that better suits a happy and fulfilled life? I would no longer assume hiding the terrible things that is done in the name of religion than that in which is done in the name of political ideologies that are indicative to no religion. I am not trying to smooth things over with people that have decided they will damage me and my integrity.
There is a thing called the Monkey Dance. It is when a person says something that an influential instigator in a crowd does not like, they stir that crowd up to a point where all logic and reason go out the window. They attack and the persons being attacked either go on defense or offense. I choose not to defend myself, but to go on the offense and point out the illogical verbiage of those people that try to damage my integrity. I will point those people out first and foremost every time and then look to restore sanity to a conversation or a situation. When that happens...everyone benefits and people learn. That is what we are here for...to learn and grow from day one. Like I tell my kids, the older you get, the bigger your brain is...not with knowledge, but with understanding and wisdom.
Do you know who Steven Hawking is? He is an Atheist and a godless man, yet one of the few brilliant men of our time. There are many men that do not believe in God and they have their reasons.
Very recently, there is strong evidence to suggest that a thing known as the Higgs Particle does exist. Hawkins, in an interview on BBC admits that he was wrong. You see, if true, the Higgs Particle...also known as The God Particle, proves that there was something that came before the Big Bang Theory...that the theory was wrong...way wrong. What some modern scientist have previously thought...is wrong. What does this mean to me and Hawkings...that whatever it is we think is the truth...can turn out to be wrong even if you are as smart as he is. It may well turn out that the Higgs Particle has not been found. A short time and we will know for sure.
You may be right...a tiny baby may be more aware of reality than a grown human. After all, like someone on this blog said to me when they were defending abortion, a baby or fetus does not have developed nerve cells so how can they feel pain. Maybe it is not pain...but fear that makes a baby cry when they are born. If you think about it, a baby just left the warm, nutritious and secure place of the womb into a cold and mostly uncaring world.
@mysteryman7,
...if true, the Higgs Particle...also known as The God Particle, proves that there was something that came before the Big Bang Theory...that the theory was wrong...way wrong.
You really don't know what are you talking about, do you? Higgs proves the Standard Model. It doesn't disprove the Big bang. Stick to what you know better. The Bible maybe... if you read the whole thing of course.
Now, stick to the documentary. Tell us how it was. Did you even watch it? Or you just trolling around?
I sense the frustration from reading the comments of someone who hasn't the faintest concept of a subject to which you've devoted a good deal of time and effort--and no, he doesn't know the Bible either.
Question: Is the Higgs particle a single particle or a combination of elements?
Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'll pray for the one who made this. He must be having a difficult time.
I am not atheist, but I don't think atheism can be really called a belief system like others said.
why do you say he must be having a difficult time?
I will answer for Betty
It is because the man who made the doco claims he was a Christian for 30 years. Was it really just a matter of waking up one day and deciding, or was there a struggle with that decision to go forth and make a documentary about it and his new belief? It seems pretty obvious that something had to happen to shake that many years of faith
People struggle with their faith all the time...including Betty. It is why she is here. It is why she watched the doco and even signed up to make a comment. She has or had doubts, just like I do and just like any other person does. I do not believe anyone that would claim that they do not question the existence of God and says that there has never been a time in their life where they have not believed.
how does that signify that he is having a hard time?
Betty, I can see that you are trying to give your opinion with respect. So I give you some credit there...
But you should be careful how you word your comments. Just because someone doesn't agree with your beliefs, doesn't mean they are living life full of difficulty and strife. Some (many) people can take great offense to that comment, and rightly so.
If you really care about "the one who made this" why not do something for him/her to show you care? Send him a note, send him a gift, send him food or money or make him a quilt. Praying for someone only makes YOU feel better. Kind of ironic... acting out a selfish endeavor when you're savior preaches selflessness.
Okay. I think that's a good idea. I learned not to push my ideas on others so besides praying in private I suppose a letter or e-letter perhaps encouraging him to follow his heart wherever it takes him will do.
@Betty Phillips:
I see that you are a Mormon, because you mentioned Mormanism on some religious docs on TDF, what is your agenda Pray tell?
Betty, you are a sheep dog among wolves.
May God Bless you and follow you, protect you and continue with you all the days forward.
You are a delight. Thanks again for proving all my points. Out of all the atheist I have had a debate with, you are by far the most clueless. By the way, what is your purpose anyway here anyway...to convince people that there is no god or to simply find a way to murder people of faith like history factually describes over and over? If you are trying to convince someone, it won't happen by using the tactics you have chosen in which attempts to discredit someone who is clearly superior to you in intelligence, common sense and emotional IQ. You do your atheist religion a disservice with your bogus argument. I truly love it when I can get inferiors to resort to verbal attacks. It shows how much of a weakling you really are. If I was to guess, I would say you are probably close to 30 and still live with your mommy. All you probably do is play video games and sponge off people that have worked their entire lives. I could be wrong...but somehow I don't think so. Had fun, got to move along now. God Bless.
....pathetic
Contemptible as well--and to think there are people who buy into this.
Case in point! Its all most religee's have when they are bettered by atheists is their weak ad hominem attacks, by the way, don't let the door hit you on your way out!
Actually, I wish he would, like in the head and, if possible, a few other places.
come on Razor...do your really think I have been bettered? That is where you fall totally short. Do you honestly think I walk away from this screen thinking...oh, I was beat by atheist bloggers? I will let you on a little secret, I had my doubts at one time...just like you. I am were I am now for a reason. I have no idea where you are, who you are and where you have been. Do you know the real beauty of life? It is knowing that you never know the shoes of someone else. It kind of makes you wonder how tough someone really is, not just physically, but spiritually as well.
You are a delusional abomination who, based on your posts and the responses thereto, hasn't proved anything except his own ignorance and congenital cluelessness.
I don't need to discredit you, the ignorance and obtuseness you've revealed in your posts (among other things, you still regard atheism as a religion) do the job far better than I could. Here's an example, "if I was to guess, I would say you are probably close to 30 and still live with your mommy. All you probably do is play video games and sponge off people that have worked their entire lives." Wrong on all counts. And this from someone who regards himself of superior intelligence, common sense and emotional IQ (whatever that is).
In addition, you have not responded to one argument from anyone, but I guess your superior intelligence, etc. militate against this and in favor of more reiterative screeds.
You are a failure in everything except being a failure. So why not leave thinking to those who can do it and move along as you say you're going to.
lol... I love this. Good job. Keep up that good emotional work pal. You are a true professional at what I would term as a classic case of instability. You know what would be really cool, if you and the three other jokers I have been shredding with common sense can get together and play a little Russian roulette together. Wouldn't that be cool. I know you guys like dangerous games just by the religion you follow and the hatred you preach as a result of it. Maybe a few unborn babies would live to take your place as a result and perhaps some of those things that stemmed from Marxism and Atheism will be rectified. Seriously though Robby, you should really try and reach out and love your fellow man. Start by loving yourself. It is a lonely road for you to travel...you know, this godless road, and It may do wonders for that inferiority and childish reaction you currently suffer from. If I was not so busy, I may continue this on days that I need a little comedy to boost my spirits. It is so much fun it is hard to put it into words really. I may invite a few friends to join in. Na...it is better to go it alone with God on my side. Good day Chap
really man, you really think you have been using common sense?
you have called people marxists when no one has once expressed their political or economic opinions.
you have continually claimed that atheists have no morals while constantly making rude personal insults to people.
im sorry but nothing you have said or done here leaves your position in a good light. if anything you are doing more damage for your god than any of us could dream of.
honestly if you cant have a rational conversation and address each point, why are you even here?
Epicurus, do you really think that anything I say is going to do damage to my God? Considering that my belief is that God made all things that man tries to re-create and fails at every attempt, I am just a peon in the scheme of things. The only thing I can do is screw up the creations that God allows through nature by trying to manipulate them in ways that are unhealthy and unnatural. If you really hate my God and you want to do harm to Him, do things that are unnatural like exterminating your own species as if they were cockroaches. No other species kills itself off. Not even cockroaches.
As far as insults, I was insulted first and repeatedly from the beginning. All anyone has to do is go back and look at the very first post. I have kept them all in a journal with everything I write. That is what writers do.
things you are saying are damaging the view some people might have of god.
"If you really hate my God and you want to do harm to Him, do things that are unnatural like exterminating your own species as if they were cockroaches. No other species kills itself off. Not even cockroaches."
????
"As far as insults, I was insulted first and repeatedly from the beginning. All anyone has to do is go back and look at the very first post. I have kept them all in a journal with everything I write. That is what writers do."
i have gone back and i have seen the way you were speaking and you were intentionally looking to get into something like this. i have already shown your posts for what they are. you dont need to keep it in a journal. its here for everyone to see.
You're sick.
P.S. My name's Robert and I don't need to hide behind a pseudonym.
@mysteryman7:
Please desist from uttering threats, implied or veiled, to us as in your post..."if you and the three other jokers I have been shredding with common sense can get together and play a little Russian roulette together. Wouldn't that be cool."
Read the "comment policy"
Any other such threats implied or veiled. And you will be banned!
mysteryman7
it is obvious that you don't like atheists and Muslims.what about people of the other religions? what about those Christians that belong to a different denomination? it is also clear that you dismiss other Christians who have done terrible things as not real Christians. so correct me if i am wrong. of the two choices religious or atheist you "chose" the right one .then out of the 28000000 gods that have been worshiped again you chose the right one then again of the approximately 38,000 Christian denominations you chose the right one again. after all that you eliminate in your group that aren't" real christians". and atheists hold themselves in high regard? you are one arrogant self deluded scary man
You started to have a good debatable point all the way up until the end and your last line. You are a weakling as well because of your last resort of attacking me. It was a pathetic attempt at the truth. What is it exactly I said that makes me delusional anyway? Just because you say there is no God...there must not be one right. That is the problem with all you Marxist, when someone disagrees with you, you use baseless accusations in an attempt to damage people that do not buy into your ****. When your types gain power and control of weapons, you execute them. History clearly shows well over a hundred million murdered at the hands of atheist. You are nothing but self serving id**ts. Look at your circle of trust...you have none. That is the way of an atheist. They can trust no one because you lie constantly to yourselves about everything . You will always be looking over your shoulder. That's right. Mark my words. One day, someone will use you as a useful id**t or if you have any status, another will attempt to remove you from that position...perhaps by force.
Who said I was a Christian? Not sure why you think I do not like Muslims...just because it is a fact that Muslims blow themselves up in efforts to kill people of other religions...including the religion of atheism does not not mean that I label all Muslims as fanatics. At least they have a belief in something greater than themselves. . I do not discount any religion...including yours. I certainly would not like it if there was a crusade in the name of Christianity just as I do not like a Jihad in the name of Islam as well as a marxist/atheist takeover of my republic. We all know where that leads don't we. That does not not mean that there is no God. Even your friend Hawkins can't really fully explain how it is a bee can take flight. Why is that? Man is seldom 100% right and it is that percentage of wrongness that kills everyone. Go read some history about how faith brought morals and good will during WW2. The Germans, in the end of their defeat where told to surrender to the Americans because they were compassionate and to never surrender to the Russians because there could be no compassion from them. It is because the country of the United States is fundamentally founded upon Judea Christian values. Your values are much closer to communist Russia and China. You cling to those values...your choice. Does not really effect me one way or the other if you go to hell or not. Some day, some dictator will come along and you useful id**ts will follow along and be commanded to do some kind of atrocity just like the many times in the past. You will do it because your are so locked into your belief that even a shred of common sense will sink into your know it all mind and it will be the end of you.
You lost man, your clueless like the other dude. Learn how to debate someone with some decency and perhaps the next time you can have an adult conversation. Maybe then you will learn something.
@mysteryman7:
Calling everyone id**ts, using bad language, your post went into moderation and I had to moderate your post, by you using all your insults, ad hominem, means you have completely lost your argument with us that are in the know. Another religee bites the dust!! Good riddance!
Would you please examine this guy's last post to me. There seemed to be something awfully sick and threatening in it. I hate to invoke the policy card, but you're opinion would be welcome.
Robby, Russian Roulette is a game of self destruction you m*ron. It is an act of self infliction and not an act committed by someone else and surely not myself. Nothing threatening about it and you totally miss the point. By the way, emotional IQ is the same thing as emotional intelligence or knowing when, if at all to get emotional. You sir, are not smart enough to realize that you have been bested. It is a lonely road for you. I pity you really.
First of all, mo"on, as I've told you, my name is Robert and I don't need to hide behind a silly pseudonym.
Second, after all your fustian beginning with your first post, you have the gall to complain of lack of respect? Bested? By whom? By someone who's not smart enough to realize how st*pid he is--cf Epicurus' compendium of quotes from your posts.
I loathe you, really.
I examined said post, It seemed like an implied/veiled threat to all of us three. Will warn him.
Thank you. If he persists, perhaps this should be reported.
Reported only to authorities if it is a "credible threat", like uttering a threat against someones life, or violence, stuff like that. Have to follow the "comment policy"
But if he persists with other types of threats I will ban him. Already warned him.
O.K. Thank you.
People of faith are not a threat to you. Like I said dwarf, if I told you to go to hell, would you be offended? By the way, your friends started the language by insulting me with words like abomination. I made a comment on this page suggestion a legitimate argument to your religion and you dirt bags responded in a disrespectful way. Go play that game I su
lets exam how many hateful ignorant bigoted things you have said in the very few posts you have made here shall we?
"Here is why atheism...a belief and a religion in itself is a disease."
"Mao was an atheist and he murdered many millions who practiced the belief that their is a higher spiritual power in which man and nature were created...they attack, kill and try to make white all of those that would go beyond man to explain things that are not understood."
"some ideologies are much better suited towards peace and good will because they are not oppressive in nature. Out of all of them, Atheism is the absolute worse."
"When people decide that you don't have the answers and they practice their belief in God...what will you do then? If history is any guide, you will make them dig their own grave and you will line them up and murder them for it. That is what every atheist that has ever come to power has always done."
THIS WAS ALL FROM YOUR FIRST POST. not only was it all offensive but it is even worse because of how factually inaccurate it all is.
so lets see what else you have said.
"All of you atheist are a lot of fun to play around with."
"In addition, just like true Atheist/Marxist form," < combining atheism with marxism is your ignorant attempt to "poison the well"
"You Atheist murder millions of new babies every year through abortion."
"I do not see any bright side to Atheist with the exception that if I can not do anything about abortion, then maybe you will abort yourselves out of existence."
"Lord knows we do not need anymore little Marxist running around thinking they have all the answers to mans problems."
"You do not have all the answers and you never will" Not only does this imply atheists said they have all the answers, but i thought the irony was hilarious.
"Atheist can't take credit for those good moral guidelines so they try so hard to have them removed from everywhere they are found. If I had to guess, an Athesist would be all for murdering every person of faith, destroying all the history books and then taking those commandments from God and claiming them as their own. Isn't that right"
"you can spew your hatred for God all you want in front of me and it really has no bearing on my longevity of life unless you physically try to harm me. That is something atheist are very good at by the way...forcing people through violence and fear to stop practicing their belief in God in the open and in private."
"Your statements and the dumb wad before you about the ten commandments and how they are not moral values goes to show that an Atheist can not be trusted."
"It must be a lonely world as an atheist because with a lack of moral judgment, no educated person would ever want anything to do with you."
"You need to go back and read your Marxist manual. Atheism as we know it today started with Marx who was inspired by none other, Robes Pierre of the French Revolution. They called him...The Incorruptible."
"You have proven my point again...that abortion is a thing of atheism. People that believe in life do not murder innocent people and who could be more innocent than that of an unborn child. Even the Muslim does not believe in abortion."
"I am against abortion, but since I can not do anything about it, maybe you people will abort yourselves out of existence. One of these days your marxist buddies in power will expand your eugenics program to murder handicaps kids and senior citizens that do not fit in your Progressive Utopia."
"I love debating your types because you always resort to some kind of ridiculous argument or attack that makes your cause look quite pathetic. Being an atheist by nature makes you oppressive and that oppression leads to atrocities. I am one to defend life against your kind. When you come, I will be waiting patiently. No fear here my friend."
^^^^THIS WAS TRULY DISTURBING AND WAS DIRECTED AT ME
"You believe in man as the higher power! You believe that man has all the answers! You believe that man has all the solutions to the worlds problems. So in that belief, it is in fact classified as a religion." .....just wrong.....
"they are no more corrupted than governments or political parties who have leaders and philosophies that are not religious. We just come to expect those entities to be corrupt so they often get a free pass."
"If there is no moral foundation, no belief that there is something greater than yourself, then there is a free for all, no morals...just kill anyone because I can get away with it."
^^^^^THIS SAYS A LOT ABOUT YOU
"it won't happen by using the tactics you have chosen in which attempts to discredit someone who is clearly superior to you in intelligence, common sense and emotional IQ. You do your atheist religion a disservice with your bogus argument. I truly love it when I can get inferiors to resort to verbal attacks. It shows how much of a weakling you really are. If I was to guess, I would say you are probably close to 30 and still live with your mommy. All you probably do is play video games and sponge off people that have worked their entire lives."
"That is the problem with all you Marxist, when someone disagrees with you, you use baseless accusations in an attempt to damage people that do not buy into your ****."
IM STARTING TO THINK I SHOULD MAKE ONE OF THESE OF JUST YOUR HYPOCRITICAL OR IRONIC POSTS
"When your types gain power and control of weapons, you execute them. History clearly shows well over a hundred million murdered at the hands of atheist. You are nothing but self serving id**ts. Look at your circle of trust...you have none. That is the way of an atheist. They can trust no one because you lie constantly to yourselves about everything . You will always be looking over your shoulder."
" Some day, some dictator will come along and you useful id**ts will follow along and be commanded to do some kind of atrocity just like the many times in the past. You will do it because your are so locked into your belief that even a shred of common sense will sink into your know it all mind and it will be the end of you.
You lost man, your clueless like the other dude. Learn how to debate someone with some decency and perhaps the next time you can have an adult conversation. Maybe then you will learn something."
FUNNY I HAVE CONTINUALLY TRIED HAVING A CALM DEBATE WITH YOU BUT YOU HAD TO START INSULTING THEN COMPLETELY IGNORING MY POSTS....YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE.
"Keep up that good emotional work pal. You are a true professional at what I would term as a classic case of instability. You know what would be really cool, if you and the three other jokers I have been shredding with common sense can get together and play a little Russian roulette together. Wouldn't that be cool. I know you guys like dangerous games just by the religion you follow and the hatred you preach as a result of it. Maybe a few unborn babies would live to take your place as a result and perhaps some of those things that stemmed from Marxism and Atheism will be rectified."
"and It may do wonders for that inferiority and childish reaction you currently suffer from."
"You sir, are not smart enough to realize that you have been bested. It is a lonely road for you. I pity you really."
WOW what an immature hateful person you are........
And that's putting it mildly. I think he's sick.
You know something. I don't lie, cheat, steal, deceive or kill and it's not from a belief in your penny version of a god--and I don't consider myself unique in this respect. I don't do these things because I am better than you.
mysteryman7
1 where did i say "there is no God"
2 where did i say i was a Marxist?
3 if atheism is a religion what is our holy book, where is our place of worship,who is our supernatural leader,where are our holy places?
4 why are atheism and marxism the same?
5 Hitler was a christian who was never excommunicated
6 point me to a single writing by Stalin where he credits his atheism as a justification for his atrocities. he didn't kill because he didn't believe in god he saw god as competition. atheism wasn't his motivation greed and power were
7 how do you know what my values are
8 are you saying you are not christian?
here is an idea answer my questions in this and other posts referencing facts. you have made many claims prove them
And typical of his genus (or clades) he has not answered one question or responded to one issue directly. Perhaps he's autistic, but one way or the other, he obviously needs help of the more secular kind.
robertallen1
the thing that makes me shake my head is if i stumbled across this poster 4-5 years ago i would have dismissed it as a troll and never responded. but now this type of argument is more the norm. there was a time when many of the pro religion posters tried to show evidence for their beliefs (right or wrong) and the rational ones realized they cannot prove their beliefs so they stopped trying and those who tended to be irrational either got angry and left or resorted to the types of arguments we see here. i personally blame those who have been here longer than i (kidding)- Achems,Epic, Vlatko ,Randy (not sure if you remember him he could make a sailor blush) amongst others and this type of argument is what we are left with. thanks guys. i never thought i would say this but the ID supporters at least try to bring something that resembles evidence even if it is quote mined,lies or misinterpretations.
@Achems speaking of Randy. batman could certainly take spiderman lol sorry i will stop the off topic now
I guess Randy was before my time. Anyway, thanks.
Robby, you said this,
"Perhaps he's autistic, but one way or the other, he obviously needs help of the more secular kind."
What are you implying here, that autistic people should be Euthanized...in a secular kind of way? There is a term for that and it is called Eugenics. You know what that is don't you? You also know where and who it comes from I am sure. Yes...I am sure you do.
Well, I do appreciate that complement of what autism carries with most people that have the functioning type of it...that they are extremely intelligent. You see, I was born before the term was originated officially by a man and government so I can't be that. It is true that I carry the credentials and the wisdom of a very intelligent and most importantly, thoughtful person, I can reason and deal with forces outside of a narrow scope unlike some Autistic people. You may be able to call me a highly functioning rocket scientist...well, no, but a man of science almost certainly...with credits.
I know you Robby, I have faced you many times in the past, you are not a good person and the spirit that lives in you is of the utmost evil. Every comment you make surrounds your true intent. Anyone with half a brain can go back to the beginning of my words, as they should, and read everything in context. If they do, they will see you for who and what your are. Your efforts are in vain. Because you have some knowledge of big words, some will follow you, but in the end, you lose. You pretend to be somebody, but you are really just some soulless creature lurking. Anyone that really grasp the depth of the evil things you have said and apply that to themselves will no that it goes way beyond any discussion about whether there is a god or not a god.
How about making a documentary about the atrocities of atheism? More deaths, genocide and inhumanity have been caused and created by atheist such as Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Lenin...etc than any religious institution in modern recorded history combined. Those are just the facts.
Here is why atheism...a belief and a religion in itself is a disease. It is because it puts all of its faith into man...that man and science have all the answers. Man has always failed humanity throughout history. Science...and the attempts of man to emulate what God has created has always had catastrophic consequences in the end. Look at the Nuclear disaster in Japan right now as a perfect example. How about when those artificially man made germs are let loose into the world and we find out that there is not a cure. Don't forget to mention the genetically engineered crops that do not self pollinate, but do corrupt other organic crops making them die out and possibly go into extinction. You can link the mass outbreaks of salmonella and mad cow disease directly to the genetic manipulation of animals to make them bigger quicker. I won't even go into the ionosphere heaters such as HAARP which is currently causing disruptions to the earths magnetic field in which has, in will have a devastating effect on the planet.
If man had all the answers, then why did it take thousands of years to do things differently? Why was there not an industrial revolution before the creation of America? Oh...it was religion right? Did you ever consider that knowledge and lack of understanding of it will be the cause and destruction of humanity and probably all life on earth? Perhaps that is why cerrtain things of science where kept hidden...because God knew that man would abuse it and destroy everything with it.
God is not an institution and perhaps that is where atheist fail in their assumptions. Institutions are corruptible...all of them, whether you are talking about a political party, an ideology such as communism and capitalism or a religion such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam...and yes...Atheism. They are beliefs in which men try to convince other men into believing for their own gain much of the time. Then again...that comes down to men once again doesn't it? Mao was an atheist and he murdered many millions who practiced the belief that their is a higher spiritual power in which man and nature were created. Atheist like Mao want their self to be the end of faith and when a person strays outside of that...they attack, kill and try to make white all of those that would go beyond man to explain things that are not understood.
Like I have said, all things are corruptible that man does, but some things are less corruptible and some ideologies are much better suited towards peace and good will because they are not oppressive in nature. Out of all of them, Atheism is the absolute worse. That ideology that you mister, have all the answers will let people down time and time again. When people decide that you don't have the answers and they practice their belief in God...what will you do then? If history is any guide, you will make them dig their own grave and you will line them up and murder them for it. That is what every atheist that has ever come to power has always done.
I suppose that the Crusades, the witch burnings and the Inquisition, not to mention the Guyana massacre, 911 and the recent poisoning of female students by the Taliban, were all good because the malfactors espoused a belief in a supreme being. Did it ever occur to you that Stalin,Lenin, Pol Pot would have committed their atrocities with or without atheism, without or without theism--and by the way, sometimes Hitler called himself a Catholic (from his mother's side) and sometimes a Protestant. In other words, your treatment of belief in a god as a gasket against evil is as lame as your knowledge of history.
As religion is a belief in a higher being, atheism like agnosticism is not a religion in any way, shape or form and I resent your attempts to demean it to the level of one. If your sense of morality and ethics (right and wrong) derives from faith (read reliance without evidence, hence idiocy) in some third party whose existence you cannot prove and is by its very nature is unprovable, then you are merely seeking a scapegoat in the delusional and the manufactured. By contrast, reliance on one's self evinces far more strength of character than anything your or your belief system has come up with and if this is atheism, it beats anything you or others like you have to offer.
Your post espouses a Bronze Age mentality, coupled with an attempt to stifle knowledge and keep the world down to your level of ignorance and superstition. Science has accomplished a lot more than your unsubstantiated belief in a higher being ever will.
In short, what you stand for flies in the face of education and intelligence.
See, you are wrong, Atheism is a belief system. It is a belief that man has all the answers and understanding. People of faith believe that the answers are found in God. That is the contrasting difference. You do not have all the answers and you never will. People that follow men that think they have all the answers are only setting themselves up for a lot of disappointment. On the same token, I believe that people that follow religious institutions in the name of Jihad or revenge are the same kind of idiots. Anyone that says you must kill in the name of God is not a man of God in my opinion. That does not mean that God does not exist and it does not mean that good people do not get caught up in the propaganda and mind manipulation of media and do bad things. You know what, it is a natural instinct not to trust your fellow man. For that reason, the circle of trust for an Atheist is much smaller than that of a person of faith. I am curious, which of the Ten Commandments do you find offensive? Is it, thou shall not kill, honor thy mother and father, do not covet your neighbors wife, shall not steal. Atheist can't take credit for those good moral guidelines so they try so hard to have them removed from everywhere they are found. If I had to guess, an Athesist would be all for murdering every person of faith, destroying all the history books and then taking those commandments from God and claiming them as their own. Isn't that right
"Atheism is a belief system. It is a belief that man has all the answers and understanding."
not a single atheist claims to have all the answers and understanding.
in fact it would be the people claiming to know a god is real and to know which one it is are the ones claiming to have all the answers. atheists look to science and try to find answers and admit when they dont know something.
"People of faith believe that the answers are found in God."
you mean they believe the answers are in a book written by men who lived in the bronze age.
"Anyone that says you must kill in the name of God is not a man of God in my opinion."
King James Version (KJV)
Genesis 22 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
"I am curious, which of the Ten Commandments do you find offensive?"
the first four are offensive because they are so stupid, and the lack of a thou shalt not rape or thou shalt not keep slaves, or thou shalt not treat women as lesser people....etc.
"Atheist can't take credit for those good moral guidelines so they try so hard to have them removed from everywhere they are found"
christians cant take credit for them either since they are found in all cultures and found before christianity. nothing about morality is dependent on christianity. morality is something that naturally evolves in social animals.
"If I had to guess, an Athesist would be all for murdering every person of faith, destroying all the history books and then taking those commandments from God and claiming them as their own. Isn't that right"
NO.
While I respect your opinion and your belief, I find it to be severely flawed. I don't really care if you are an atheist or not. It really has no bearing on me unless you start trying to oppress me or my family and our belief. You are free to practice your non belief, but you are not free to oppress others in practicing theirs as long as it does not infringe upon your own freedom. I could sit and say a prayer over you right in front of you and it impedes you in no way shape or form. Likewise, you can spew your hatred for God all you want in front of me and it really has no bearing on my longevity of life unless you physically try to harm me. That is something atheist are very good at by the way...forcing people through violence and fear to stop practicing their belief in God in the open and in private.
You do see that in the world today...especially the United States, no one is trying to force their faith on you. It is Atheist that are trying to force their belief that there is no God on everyone else. Your statements and the dumb wad before you about the ten commandments and how they are not moral values goes to show that an Atheist can not be trusted. If you are for murder, taking another mans wife as your own, disrespecting your parents, stealing...who would ever want you as a friend or a neighbor. It must be a lonely world as an atheist because with a lack of moral judgment, no educated person would ever want anything to do with you. You have proven my point as well as the other. Go ahead and take another wife, kill someone because you do not like the fact that those laws are undeniably associated with Judaism. See where it gets you in the end.
Why did Mao, Stalin, Lenin and Hitler, destroy or co opt religious people? They did so because if a person has a belief in something greater than them, then those people will not pledge allegiance to them. It was those leaders that destroyed the history books. It was Hitler that made the occult famous. When words are written by atheist about how the Ten Commandments are not good moral values, it proves the danger in such ideology that is founded solely around Marxism. Good luck with it.
" . . . especially the United States, no one is trying to force their faith on you. It is Atheist thantare trying to force their belief that there is no God on everyone else." Give me one example of the use of violence and fear by atheists in the name of atheism to prevent theists from practicing their beliefs in the open and in private. On the other hand, I can think of numerous instances of religees trying to force their beliefs on others. Have you ever heard of the religious right? Do the names Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell ring a bell? What about the Taliban? So this gives the lie to your first and second paragraphs.
Now, let's get back to the state of your intelligence of which the following is a sample: "Your statements and the dumb wad[?] before you about the ten commandments and how they are not moral values goes to show that an Atheist can not be trusted." And this non sequitur passes for reasoned thought? You in all your religious zealotry are certainly no prize and I would never want to be seen with you, much less have you as a neighbor--and probably a meddling one.
Catholics do not pledge allegiance to some higher being, but to the Pope--and don't insult my intelligence by attempting to rationalize this with the statement that they are really godless--you might have the temerity to make such a determination, but certainly not the knowledge. In this country, we basically pledge allegiance to our constitution, a non-denominational document which beats the delusional star to which you've hooked your decrepit wagon.
"When words are written by atheist [this time with a small a] about how the Ten Commandments are not good moral values, it proves the danger in such ideology that is founded solely around Marxism." So it's all right if theists do not believe the ten commandments are good moral values--or is it really that everyone must share your belief system or else. Again, this gives the lie to your first and second paragraphs.
In short, you have the values of a hypocrite.
@mysteryman7:
You are the one that first came on this doc one day ago and started to run down all atheists spewing your religious garbage.
And now you are crying the blues, you have no ammunition to continue on, with your gods that are in you mind, the bronze age bible stuff? us atheists probably know more about your holy books of terror than you. Read the Old Testament sometime. That is all I will say to you, you are a complete waste of time!
Can I ask you something? Are you offended...you know, as a person that follows the religion of atheism, if someone tells you to go to hell? I have always wanted to know?
How many times do you have to be told that as atheism does not espouse a belief in a higher being, by definition, it is not a religion.
Your second point is ignorantly puerile.
You believe in man as the higher power! You believe that man has all the answers! You believe that man has all the solutions to the worlds problems. So in that belief, it is in fact classified as a religion.
I stand with athesist on certain grounds and I can see why people raised in a particular faith could become a non believer. Men corrupt institutions and there is nothing worse than having an institution who claims a certain set of values and then totally ignores them. They are all guitly and all those institutions have corruption in them because they are instituted by men. However, they are no more corrupted than governments or political parties who have leaders and philosophies that are not religious. We just come to expect those entities to be corrupt so they often get a free pass. My point the whole time on this blog is simply that if it is a thing of man, it is corrupted in some way. To put your faith in man to solve all the answers is simply asking for trouble. It does not matter if it is the POPE or Hitler. God is a catch all term that suites anything from Aliens to Buddha, to Christ. I do not force anyone to buy into any of them, but they all stand to reason that there is a higher power out there that created life and will hold those accountable for screwing it up. If there is no moral foundation, no belief that there is something greater than yourself, then there is a free for all, no morals...just kill anyone because I can get away with it. I personally do not really care if you believe or don't believe. I like a good debate. That is the whole purpose of creating a documentary in the first place. It is to spark debate and to create critical thinkers out of people. It not to see how many people you can find that agree with you. If you have it in your mind that you will never see the oppositions point of view whether you agree or not, then why even debate the point?
"there is a higher power out there that created life and will hold those accountable for screwing it up"
what evidence leads you to believe this is true?
Man is the highest intellectual power we know of, but as has been told to you over and over again (and, of course, it doesn't sink in), man does not have all the answers and probably never will, but the answers he has beat yours by a light year.
No person with any sense and backbone needs belief in a god of the gaskets to keep on the straight and narrow. You say there is a higher power, well, prove it--or is this what Plato termed the "noble lie?" Until you do, I'll put my reliance (not faith) in man because so far there is nothing else.
And don't flatter yourself that your screeds even begin to rise to the level of a debate. They are simply the rantings of a myopic crank.
myopic crank..Robby, I must admit, I truly to like that phrase and the insult it implies even if it does not apply to me personally. I will have to remember that one.
"forcing people through violence and fear to stop practicing their belief in God in the open and in private.
You do see that in the world today...especially the United States"
give some examples.
do you think making kids pray in school is not forcing it down their throats?
"It is Atheist that are trying to force their belief that there is no God on everyone else."
how do atheists do that?
" Your statements and the dumb wad before you about the ten commandments and how they are not moral valu