The Genius of Charles Darwin

The Genius of Charles DarwinThe Genius of Charles Darwin is a three-part television documentary, written and presented by evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins.

Life, Darwin and Everything. In the first episode Richard Dawkins explains the basic mechanisms of natural selection, and tells the story of how Charles Darwin developed his theory. He teaches a year 11 science class about evolution, which many of the students are reluctant to accept. He then takes them to the Jurassic Coast in Dorset to search for fossils, hoping that the students can see some of the evidence for themselves.

The Fifth Ape. In the second episode Richard Dawkins deals with some of the philosophical and social ramifications of the theory of evolution. Dawkins starts out in Kenya, speaking with palaeontologist Richard Leakey. He then visits Christ is the Answer Ministries, Kenya's largest Pentecostal church, to interview Bishop Bonifes Adoyo. Adoyo has led the movement to press the National Museums of Kenya to sideline its collection of hominid bones pointing to man's evolution from ape to human.

God Strikes Back. In the third and final episode, Dawkins explains why Darwin's theory is one of history's most controversial ideas. Dawkins uses this episode to discuss the opposition that evolution has experienced since it was first discovered. He starts by approaching various anti-evolutionists, ranging from John Mackay from Creation Research, Wendy Wright, President of Concerned Women for America, to English school teacher Nick Cowen. In order to address concerns they bring up, he shows the evidence for evolution, including fossil and DNA evidence.

Watch the full documentary now (playlist - 2 hours, 24 minutes)

Ratings: 8.36/10 from 166 users.

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Comments and User Reviews

  • Hua we go again. Richard Dawkins teaching kids. That should make this the riligulous on these forums cringe. This series should keep me amused this evening.
    Glad your site is back to normal Vlatko :)

  • SexMoneyMonkey

    Nice to see a documentary added to the site :P

    Watched the first already and it was rather good. Saving the other two for tonight.

  • Aran Islands

    Dawkins is excellent again. Well worth watching all 3 episodes.

  • Capricious

    My lord and savior Richard Dawkins.. I cannot wait! ;)))

  • Achems Razor

    I don't know why, but the Religee's love these type of docs!!


  • Ed

    Here, religious people, if you are so sure there is a god, prove it using normal language. Maybe explain it as a teacher would explain something to a kid in school for purposes of clarity. Sell it to us.

  • Somethin

    He always gets this unbelieving, pissed-off look when speaking to some religious id***. I find that very sympathetic. :)
    He almost looks as if he would throw up the next second. *g*

    All hail R. Dawkins, Messiah of Evolution

  • Ed

    Best quote in the series:

    "Evolution is a demonstrated fact, is not a matter of opinion…. …..There really is something special about scientific evidence. Science works, planes fly, magic carpets and broom sticks don’t. Gravity is not a version of the truth, it is the truth. Anybody who doubts it is invited to jump out of a 10 story window."

  • Holden

    to try to relate the theory of darwin with the existence or non existence of god is an stupidity so big that makes me really doubt if there was an evolution at all. we had that stupidity before and we have it now again with a different conclusion. maybe the body is evoluting but the mind seems to take longer.

  • Hulk

    Religion have been deeply rooted into our society since the days when we human did not understand many things and seek a sense of comfort by confabulating up crap so we at least have an explanation for it. Creationists are being brought up almost the same way child soldiers are,not to make a direct comparison but you can see the obligation to put their communities and orders first before anything.Based on a fairy tale providing zero valid evidence at all. Incredibly similar to Marxism and Nazism.People who will not accept the facts and truth of the world even when piles and piles of evidence are put in front of them, are total disgrace to the human species. Im absolutely certain that if there is to be another witch hunt,the situation will turn out the same,a massacre as long as people with these kind of mindset are around.

  • Will

    I want to know what the reaction was when the religious kids told their parents that Richard Dawkins was in class teaching evolution and telling thme that blindly believing their religion wasn't going to get them anywhere.

  • Charles B.

    Will: Only Christians can be bad-mouthed in schools; evolutionists are the most hateful vicious people around and everyone is afraid to kick them out of the school system or get an ACLU lawsuit. It's that simple.

  • Will

    Charles B.

    Well, I didn't see Dawkins bad-mouthing the students or the religion (this time), he was merely asking them why they believed.

    The fact of the matter is that evolution SHOULD be taught in the schools and creationism left out, at least in science class. If creationism is taught it should be in the same context as any other mythology.

  • Achems Razor

    @ Charles B:

    I actually went to school, not much I grant you, but a little.

    Did not really know that I was the most hateful, vicious person around? Will wonders never cease!!

  • Charles B.

    Yep. It's true. The least tollerent of all the people in science and education are the evolutionists. Anyone with even a little faith is blatantly targeted for elimination in the academic and scientific fields. It's vouge to espouse anything you want academicly except traditional Christianity. Like Will said to prove my point: "The fact of the matter is that evolution SHOULD be taught in the schools and creationism left out, at least in science class. If creationism is taught it should be in the same context as any other mythology." He's quite willing my kids get evolution crammed down their thoats at school with or without my parental consent. Now that's intollerant!

  • Achems Razor

    Ha, It is pretty hard to put creationism into a test tube in science class, but very easy for evolution theorems.

    Because evolution is science, creationism is not.

  • Will


    You can believe whatever you want and you can teach your kids whatever you want, but this is SCIENCE class. The class where kids learn about SCIENCE. Let them learn science, including evolution.

    It's not intolerant to teach astronomy while leaving out astrology. It's not intolerant to teach biology while leaving out discussion of the "humours". It's not intolerant to teach physics while leaving out discussin of "spirits", and it's not intolerant to teach evolution in science class while leaving out creationism. Evolution is fact, creationism is not, and as such it's our responsibility to teach what we know to be true over what we know to not be true.

    Dude, believe whatever you like, I'm not one of those people who's gonna try to proselytize atheism to you, I'm not even an atheist, truth be told. As long as your beliefs don't interfere with my life you can do whatever you please. If you don't want your kids learning evolution, then don't send them to schools that teach it, there's still lots around. You can home-school as well. But we live in a world where certain things are fact, and facts are taught to our kids so that they have the tools they need to function in the real world.

    That being said, simply because your beliefs are in conflict with what we know to be scientifically true, that doesn't mean that you get to play the persecution card. You want to talk about how it seems that Christians are the only religion we can safely mock, I'll likely agree with you. What I won't agree with is the idea that teaching kids science, for which there is several thousand cubic ass-loads of evidence, that doesn't necessarily agree with the creation myth, for which there is NO evidence whatsoever, is persecution or intolerance. It's not.

    The reason why you and BBC and Murdoch and the others here don't like evolution and go to war every time on the subject whenever a new doc comes up is because you feel you have to. You're threatened by it. You fight so hard against it because you know that if you don't then you might have to think about it, and if you do that then you'll probably end up questioning all the ideas that you've held as truth most of your life. Those ideas are important to you, so much so that they make up a large part of who you percieve yourself to be. If those ideas are shattered, then you would have to re-examine who you are and what your place is in the world. Those are frightening prospects, I don't envy you your dilemma.

    All the best;

    Your friendly neighbourhood Agnostic

  • Hardy

    "Anyone with even a little faith is blatantly targeted for elimination in the academic and scientific fields."

    Because faith has no place in science, as simple as that.

    And I agree with Will. Let your kids learn evolution (the correct, unbiased way: school education, not influenced websites) and yet them decide for themselves. If creation is perfect, you have nothing to worry about.

  • Epicurus

    lol saying it is intolerant to teach evolution and not creationism is just like saying its intolerant to teach that babies are the result of sex and not storks.

    if you want to teach creationism in schools then i will teach evolution in church.

    evolution is a well established fact and the only people who dont accept it are those that feel it intrudes on their religious beliefs.

    the only science the theist denies is big bang, and evolution...the two theories that show their bible is bull.

    please until someone can show me an argument that stumps me or any evolutionary biologist keep your asinine comments to yourself.

  • SexMoneyMonkey

    I read something somewhere that was just a joke but it said on it that there was a good chance that if we ever do encounter alien species, the stick against which they'd measure whether we were intelligent or not would be whether we've figured out we evolved.

    And at this point, the less parents have to do with their kids' education the better! Parents aren't super infalliable either.

  • SexMoneyMonkey

    I have a comment in moderation with the link to the joke I mentioned. It's a rather funny read.

    @Charles B

    I'm not sure if you're here just to agitate people. But, if you aren't, I'd advice seeing a psychologist. I know this comment can be taken as a thinly veiled insult and I really don't want that to happen. You seem like a very nice person, really. But, you've demonstrated a few symptoms which should be checked out just in case. It's perfectly probable that there is nothing wrong with you, I'm just urging you to err on the side of caution as the symptoms might get worse and become dangerous. I'll not point out any symptoms as that'll probably make this seem even more insulting.

    Again, I really don't want you to take it as an insult, you're a very nice person from all the posts I've seen you make. I would have emailed this to you if I had your email or any means of getting it. And as I said, merely symptoms, absolutely nothing conclusive :)

    Apart from that, something whose proof is "I can't understand evolution" and "An old book says this is so" should never be taught in science class. That's not to say they should get rid of religious studies just definitely keep creation out of science class.

    Whether or not more funding should go into religious studies is another argument all together, one in which I take the position everybody expects me to take. But putting creation in Science class is akin to putting Evolution in church sermons.

  • Kevin

    Wonderfully done! Should be viewed by everyone.

  • afly_on_the_wall

    Richard Dawkins makes atheism a religion
    not there is anything wrong with that.

  • SexMoneyMonkey


    Religion implies supernatural beliefs(Like God) and/or practices (Like praying). So no, not a religion. He is passionate about it, sure.

  • Charles B.

    SMM: If I have a disorder, I wish more people had this particular phychological problem. I do like the docs and watch more than I comment on, but this sight just overflows with Evolution and Atheism and it demands a countervoice.

    afly-on-the-wall: I agree that atheism is a religion as it has all the earmarks of a very aggressive evangelisitic one in fact.

    SSM: Atheism's "supernatural" element is evolution, SSM! The numerical probability of evolution happening even on the smallest scale, or even the genetic scale is astrologically huge, and therefore a beliefe in it would be a belief (faith) in the "supernatural" not the natural order of things. For "praying" just substitute "gloating" or nature worship or worship of one's self. It's a religion for sure.

  • Kevin

    By any sane definition atheism is not a religion. Unless one is speaking metaphorically. A religion is a set of beliefs, and atheism is the absence of belief.

    Neither is evolution a belief. It is a scientific fact.

  • SexMoneyMonkey

    @Charles B.

    I understand the feeling. And I'm not saying everything you're saying is insane, just to get checked out because of a few thing. I don't mean to be all "Ad Hominen" and just discredit you. Just wanted to warn you.

    And no, evolution isn't supernatural. There's actually no numerical probability to evolution happening. If two people have a kid, half the genes from each parents are given to the kid in that process some mistakes are made. This leads to small changes which might give the kid an advantage over others. So he has a greater probability of surviving and passing on those genes.

    And there is evidence for evolution whereas there is none for Creation as it makes no testable predictions except those that the evidence discredits.

    So basically what Kevin said is spot on.

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @Charles B. & afly-on-the-wall - That is like saying that Law is a religion because those damn lawyers get upset when you make up your own laws and try to teach it to 8th graders. Or that Law is a religion because lawyers are passionate in the courtroom and look at people like they are stupid when the are misquoting the law.

    I also want to say that there is nothing wrong with religious scientists. I would guess most scientists are in fact religious. The difference is that they can separate there religion from there science.

    If an experiment demonstrates a result that is against your belief structure a scientist publishes it any way. If a fanatic finds results against their belief structure they resist it.

    Also... i refuse to teach out of a book that cant even demonstrate simple math.

    1 KINGS 7:23 - And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

  • SexMoneyMonkey


    I know you were just being nice but certain statistics I found after a quick search:
    " 40% of American scientists believe in God, specifically a God to whom they can pray and expect to receive an answer; but only 10% of “elite scientists” (in this case, members of the National Academy of Sciences) believe in God."

    "He found that 58% of 1,000 randomly selected US scientists expressed disbelief or doubt in the existence of God, and that this figure rose to near 70% among the 400 "greater" scientists within his sample " From study in 1914.

    "We found little change from 1914 for American scientists generally, with 60.7% expressing disbelief or doubt. This year, we closely imitated the second phase of Leuba's 1914 survey to gauge belief among "greater" scientists, and find the rate of belief lower than ever — a mere 7% of respondents." Same study 1996

    So most scientists are atheist and almost all scientist in the NAS (What was meant by "greater as explained later in the article) are.

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @SexMoneyMonkey - I stand corrected. In the future I will not express 42% as "most". It will hence be know as "more then a few".

  • SexMoneyMonkey

    39.3% Actually, the 42% was from a study in 1914 :P

    I don't think religious people should not be allowed to be scientists, but scientists should view the evidence objectively and come to the conclusion that the evidence supports (atheism). I'd trust the findings of an atheist scientist more than the ones of a religious on for these reasons.

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @SexMoneyMonkey - I disagree.

    If an astrophysicist told me he could see the hand of Dog in the big bang, or the wisdom of God in evolution I would label him a Renaissance man. Just as I would label a man that states he believes in gravity and refuses to question it a fool.

    I have the utmost respect for Vatican astronomers.

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    lol replace Dog with God... freudian slip much?

  • SexMoneyMonkey


    Believing in the possibility is very different from believing it's true in my mind. I'd have nothing against a scientist who believes in the possibility, but somebody who believes it's true is not objective enough for me when it comes to science. When it comes to truth you have to weigh the evidence.

    Not to say they are definitely bad scientists, but the chances are much higher.

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @ Will - "If you don’t want your kids learning evolution, then don’t send them to schools that teach it"

    What if I replace evolution with holocaust. To promote schools that only teach what you "believe", is dangerous. Any school that doesn't teach facts (or our best attempt at facts) should be shutdown in an instant. Fairy tales have no room in schools. Teach facts. Then teach them to question what they have been taught. Then teach them how to properly question. Then teach them to question how to properly question.

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @SexMoneyMonkey - "Not to say they are definitely bad scientists, but the chances are much higher."

    The worst kind of men can easily make the best scientists. But they are usually too busy at the pulpit.

  • SexMoneyMonkey

    If you don't want your kids to learn evolution I highly question your ability as a parent.

  • HaTe_MaChInE


    Would you question Einsteins parents if they didnt want him to learn a atom was a solid object?

    Would you question Copernicus' parents if they didnt want him to learn that that planets circled the earth?

    Your logic is flawed sir.

  • SexMoneyMonkey


    I've never heard that Einstein didn't learn that an atom was a solid object or that Copernicus didn't learn that the planets circled the earth. And if they did learn those things then my logic isn't flawed but yours is.

    And yes, I would question the parents.

    People should be taught scientific theories and not baseless beliefs. They also should be taught how science works, where theories change and are replaced over time.

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @SexMoneyMonkey - They did learn those things, but not in school. The science at the time taught just the opposite.

  • SexMoneyMonkey


    Two exceptions does not disprove a rule.

    Especially exception like Einstein and Copernicus.

    Your logic could basically justify genocide :P (Say two criminals were killed in the the whole thing)

    Children should learn current scientific theories. They should also be taught critical thinking and reasoning. Keep in mind that almost everybody who has advanced science learned the current science they debunked.

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @SexMoneyMonkey - How many exceptions does it take to disprove a rule?

    "Your logic could basically justify genocide (Say two criminals were killed in the the whole thing)" I'm not tracking on this one. State it again in a different way.

  • SexMoneyMonkey

    "I question anybody who kills people of the race"

    "Would you have questioned the person who kills ?"
    Where blank is a criminal of the race stated above and there is no evidence against him (Until later).

    And something more than .0002% would be good (that's if a million people went to school :P).

    Anybody who doesn't want their kids to learn evolution without presenting a valid alternate scientific theory, better?

    I'm going to have to call it a night, so I won't be replying until tomorrow at which point I'll be more coherent :P

  • Epicurus

    the problem i see with what you did Machine, is that SexMonkey said he questions the parenting skills of someone who doesnt want their child taught evolution, and you pointed out Einstein and Copernicus' parents didnt want them learning things we found to be true...However, we KNOW evolution is true (there are more than enough experiments done in the lab with other species as well as endogenous retroviruses as well as the beautiful chromosome 2 to show evolution is true), so a parent living today who denies their child the ability to learn well established science....well i question their parenting skills also.

    @Charles, as someone in school studying psychology i would also advice you to speak to a professional.

    now if you think evolution is supernatural you are clearly ignoring facts. facts such as endogenous retroviruses, chromosome 2, different bacteria and insects that we have witnessed evolve in the lab and still have the generations of species frozen.

    you spout noise that evolution is improbable but do not provide the math, im sure Hate_Machine would love to check your numbers. I would say the odds of evolution would be 1/1....if you knew every possible variable for our universe.

  • milano

    It looks like we are stuck with evolution and creation to explain life on this planet. I believe both of them have their limitations. I think that evolution works within a specie, but i don't understand at what point a new specie is created. How does that work? so suddenly the animal that decided to grow a neck and turn into a giraffe was unable to meet with animals with shorter necks and here goes a split in the evolution tree and two species are formed. So is there a specie locking mechanism that happens to separate the new specie from its ancestor?

  • SexMoneyMonkey


    I understand the confusion but you have to realize that generally, different species evolve in different areas. There will be a separation within a species before they evolve into different species. Say that species A splits into two groups(B,C), B lives in a place where all the nutrition is on trees, C lives where the nutrition is all in the ground.

    Overtime, the genes that suit the species in it's habitat are going to be the ones that stick around the most (due to starvation). If a mutation leads to claws that are better for climbing it'll thrive in group B, if a mutation leads to paws that are better for digging, it'll thrive in group C. So even though they are both group A, they have different claws. Changes like this keep happened (Bs that can camouflage in trees survive, Bs that have long arms for swinging from tree to tree survive, Cs that camouflage in the ground survive, Cs that are smaller survive (faster to find cover) or that develop weapons to fend off predators)

    All members of group B are likely cousins of each other to a very small degree (first, second, third) so they have very similar genes, all members of group C are the same with each other. But the relation between B and C keeps getting further and further away, generation by generation (mother, grandmother, great grandmother).

    Until at some point, B and C can't mate anymore. This is a very long time. They have a common ancestor (great x 1000 mother or some such) but they have evolved so much their genes are just too different for mating (not to mention they probably aren't attracted to each other :P). So now we have -species- B and C and species A is... well... gone!

    This isn't for sure, this is just my limited understanding of evolution. And it works in my mind.

  • BBC

    Genetic code in DNA has not been added too. The traits are already present in the DNA, and some traits are turned on and some are turned off. Show us where code has been added to DNA, to cause a change in species. Use bacteria since they replicate so fast. Show us a gaining of new code that was previously non-existent in the DNA.

  • SexMoneyMonkey

    You mean like down syndrome, BBC? Where they have another Chromosome and so more data (obviously not a benefit in this case)?

    Granted down syndrome isn't a change in species but it could lead to one eventually.

    You're obviously looking for any reason not to believe in evolution, BBC. If you're so curious about it then take a course or read a book. I have all the evidence I need to believe it's probably true.

    I find it hilarious though that you ask for so much evidence for evolution and DNA and yet (if I'm right in assuming you're a Christian) believe a whole set of myths simply because they were the first thing taught to you.

    I know one should be respectful but, no, there probably isn't a god or many gods, and if there is then it's definitely not the Christian god.

    In a hundred years, maybe two, people will look back on this time and wonder why so many people believed silly myths.

  • BBC

    "because they were the first thing taught to you."

    Where did you get that idea? I never believed God, until i had an encounter. And now i believe.

    Do you really think all Christians are mindless ritards? Evolution was taught to me in school, just like everyone else in North America. Is this why people believe in these myths? Keep in mind, i am not denying the fact that evolution occurs. But it does not occur in the way Darwin proposes it does.

    Remember Ernst Haeckel and his idea of embryonic recapitulation? This is a myth, that evolution text books still put fourth, text books that i had to read in school. It is a proven myth.

    "You’re obviously looking for any reason not to believe in evolution, BBC."

    Could this question be posed back to you, just reversed?

    When it comes to origins Atheists and Theists both believe in myths. The theist has an answer though, God. Atheists have an answer also, chance (or aliens) ;) . Call me foolish, but I personally believe that all things originated with God. But wait, where did God come from? I do not have that answer, therefore i must be foolish, and brainwashed.

  • Charles B.

    SMMonkey: Down's Syndrom is a malfunction of replication of chromosomes thus resulting in the addition of some genes on a specific chromosom. I'm not even sure if Down's Syndrom victims can even have children. I've never known that to happen, have you? It's not a good example as no novel DNA sequences are added, but rather is just misplaced normal DNA.

    I also had to put up with that evolution barf in school where they showed the little fishy that looked the same as the chick the same as the pig the same as the baby human and said that was proof they were all evolutionarily connected in the distant past. The "gills" on the baby are pituitary glands, and what a Hell of a lie that turned out to be, and if it's still being vomited out in our school system, then that's an example of the militant Evolutionary religion marching onward despite logical and scientific counter claims.

    Also, I was so brainwashed with that garbage, my little mind thought my dad was "evolving" with his lips getting bigger to fit the Pepsi bottle. I was pretty peeved to find out it's not even a very sound theory, let alone worthy to be taught as truth. Shame on them! It made me feel like less than nothing thinking I came from monkeys. I remember the feeling.

    At least Christians offer hope and value, and I believe actual truth as well. Glad I made it through the muck alive, while I'm quite sure many others did not due to the "theory" of evolution taught in schools to little children.

  • Achems Razor

    @ Charles B:

    Humans are Animals, Charles, humans are just a bit smarter (sometimes). We just came swinging down from the trees only a short while ago!

    Chimps are 96% to 99% similar to humans.
    Cats have 90% of homologous genes with humans.
    Cows are 80% genetically similar to humans.
    75% of mouse genes have equivalents in humans.
    The fruit fly shares about 60% of its DNA with humans.
    About 60% of chicken genes correspond to a similar human gene.

    And the list goes on!

  • puppetandmuppets

    how adam and eve can exist at that time a lot of beast and dinosaurs around them ? Do they not fear that wild dinosaurs will eat them alive ?

  • Achems Razor

    I didn't know that dinosaurs are wild and eat people?

    Take a look at Dino. in the Flintstones, he looks pretty tame to me!

  • puppetandmuppets

    @Achems Razor

    your reason inspiring me , so i make a poet for my girlfriend to make her a bed of rock ,so I do not need to spend a lot of money for her cosmetics , just use a comb with a bone to straighten her hair :D

  • BBC


    Dawkins himself states,

    "Nobody's ever seen evolution take place over a long period, but they have seen the after affects. And the after affects are massively supported. It's like in a court of law; no one can say that i actually saw the murder happen. But yet there is millions of pieces of evidence, which no reasonable person can possibly dispute" (5min 54sec- 6min 18sec mark of Life, Darwin, and Everything).

    The main proponent for evolution, says that they have never seen anything evolve, but....

    I do not deny the science. I see the science and it is good. The evidence is not enough to deny the existence of God, or to show me that DNA from a single cell organism, could become a human over billions of years. As we have seen with Haeckle's theory, sometimes theories are made to fit presuppositions, which blind us of the truth. I did not always believe in God. He opened my eyes to see. I see the science and it does not convince me otherwise that there is no God. Oh wait, that is because i am presupposing God exists and around and around we go.

    There is imagination is science Epic, science fiction is an actual science now. Some imaginations make man the center, some make God the center. I would rather a perfect being in control over all things than an imperfect being. Science can show us God, so that in the end we are without excuse. We know there is a God, by His creation.

  • Will


    Replacing evolution with the holocaust is a bit of a red herring. We teach the holocaust not only to honour the history itself of the 11 million people that were killed in hatred, but because it has an important lesson to teach us. We want to make sure that we take every opportunity to teach our kids what to look for. If the nazi holocaust has given us anything at all, at the very least it's given us a cautionary tale about hatred run wild.

    Charles B was looking for a way to castigate evolution being taught in the schools wthout creationism, so I simply offered a possible solution to the problem that was both legal and within his rights. I never said it was a GOOD idea, simply a solution to what he sees as persecution or some other such nonsense.

  • Will


    "The evidence is not enough to deny the existence of God, or to show me that DNA from a single cell organism, could become a human over billions of years.``

    You`re half-right... the evidence for evolution of course isn`t sufficient to supply evidence for the lack of existence of God. It does, however, show very clearly PRECISELY how a single-cell organism develops over billions of years into complex organisms like human beings.

  • Epicurus

    @BBC it may not be convincing to someone with a bias in the subject and who doesnt want the theory to be correct. however for any HONEST human being the evidence shows absolutely clearly how DNA from a single celled organism can evolve to all life you see today.

    I love how christians like you quote mine the works of scientists whom you dont understand. if you would read Dawkins latest book "The Greatest Show on Earth" you will see a number of examples he sites for evolution occuring in the lab.

    when he says "Nobody's ever seen evolution take place" he is talking about the claims creationists try to demand such as a monkey giving birth to a human. the changes are so small they usually go missed unless done in the lab over years like THIS:

    The E. coli long-term evolution experiment is an ongoing study in experimental evolution led by Richard Lenski that has been tracking genetic changes in 12 initially nearly identical populations of asexual Escherichia coli bacteria since February 24, 1988. The populations reached the milestone of 50,000 generations on February 14, 2010.

    en . wikipedia . org/wiki/E._coli_long-term_evolution_experiment

    evolution . berkeley . edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/conover_04

    5.0 Observed Instances of Speciation

    The following are several examples of observations of speciation.
    5.1 Speciations Involving Polyploidy, Hybridization or Hybridization Followed by Polyploidization.

    5.1.1 Plants

    (See also the discussion in de Wet 1971). Evening Primrose (Oenothera gigas)

    While studying the genetics of the evening primrose, Oenothera lamarckiana, de Vries (1905) found an unusual variant among his plants. O. lamarckiana has a chromosome number of 2N = 14. The variant had a chromosome number of 2N = 28. He found that he was unable to breed this variant with O. lamarckiana. He named this new species O. gigas. Kew Primrose (Primula kewensis)

    Digby (1912) crossed the primrose species Primula verticillata and P. floribunda to produce a sterile hybrid. Polyploidization occurred in a few of these plants to produce fertile offspring. The new species was named P. kewensis. Newton and Pellew (1929) note that spontaneous hybrids of P. verticillata and P. floribunda set tetraploid seed on at least three occasions. These happened in 1905, 1923 and 1926. Tragopogon

    Owenby (1950) demonstrated that two species in this genus were produced by polyploidization from hybrids. He showed that Tragopogon miscellus found in a colony in Moscow, Idaho was produced by hybridization of T. dubius and T. pratensis. He also showed that T. mirus found in a colony near Pullman, Washington was produced by hybridization of T. dubius and T. porrifolius. Evidence from chloroplast DNA suggests that T. mirus has originated independently by hybridization in eastern Washington and western Idaho at least three times (Soltis and Soltis 1989). The same study also shows multiple origins for T. micellus. Raphanobrassica

    The Russian cytologist Karpchenko (1927, 1928) crossed the radish, Raphanus sativus, with the cabbage, Brassica oleracea. Despite the fact that the plants were in different genera, he got a sterile hybrid. Some unreduced gametes were formed in the hybrids. This allowed for the production of seed. Plants grown from the seeds were interfertile with each other. They were not interfertile with either parental species. Unfortunately the new plant (genus Raphanobrassica) had the foliage of a radish and the root of a cabbage. Hemp Nettle (Galeopsis tetrahit)

    A species of hemp nettle, Galeopsis tetrahit, was hypothesized to be the result of a natural hybridization of two other species, G. pubescens and G. speciosa (Muntzing 1932). The two species were crossed. The hybrids matched G. tetrahit in both visible features and chromosome morphology. Madia citrigracilis

    Along similar lines, Clausen et al. (1945) hypothesized that Madia citrigracilis was a hexaploid hybrid of M. gracilis and M. citriodora As evidence they noted that the species have gametic chromosome numbers of n = 24, 16 and 8 respectively. Crossing M. gracilis and M. citriodora resulted in a highly sterile triploid with n = 24. The chromosomes formed almost no bivalents during meiosis. Artificially doubling the chromosome number using colchecine produced a hexaploid hybrid which closely resembled M. citrigracilis and was fertile. Brassica

    Frandsen (1943, 1947) was able to do this same sort of recreation of species in the genus Brassica (cabbage, etc.). His experiments showed that B. carinata (n = 17) may be recreated by hybridizing B. nigra (n = 8) and B. oleracea, B. juncea (n = 18) may be recreated by hybridizing B. nigra and B. campestris (n = 10), and B. napus (n = 19) may be recreated by hybridizing B. oleracea and B. campestris. Maidenhair Fern (Adiantum pedatum)

    Rabe and Haufler (1992) found a naturally occurring diploid sporophyte of maidenhair fern which produced unreduced (2N) spores. These spores resulted from a failure of the paired chromosomes to dissociate during the first division of meiosis. The spores germinated normally and grew into diploid gametophytes. These did not appear to produce antheridia. Nonetheless, a subsequent generation of tetraploid sporophytes was produced. When grown in the lab, the tetraploid sporophytes appear to be less vigorous than the normal diploid sporophytes. The 4N individuals were found near Baldwin City, Kansas. Woodsia Fern (Woodsia abbeae)

    Woodsia abbeae was described as a hybrid of W. cathcariana and W. ilvensis (Butters 1941). Plants of this hybrid normally produce abortive sporangia containing inviable spores. In 1944 Butters found a W. abbeae plant near Grand Portage, Minn. that had one fertile frond (Butters and Tryon 1948). The apical portion of this frond had fertile sporangia. Spores from this frond germinated and grew into prothallia. About six months after germination sporophytes were produced. They survived for about one year. Based on cytological evidence, Butters and Tryon concluded that the frond that produced the viable spores had gone tetraploid. They made no statement as to whether the sporophytes grown produced viable spores.
    5.1.2 Animals

    Speciation through hybridization and/or polyploidy has long been considered much less important in animals than in plants [[[refs.]]]. A number of reviews suggest that this view may be mistaken. (Lokki and Saura 1980; Bullini and Nascetti 1990; Vrijenhoek 1994). Bullini and Nasceti (1990) review chromosomal and genetic evidence that suggest that speciation through hybridization may occur in a number of insect species, including walking sticks, grasshoppers, blackflies and cucurlionid beetles. Lokki and Saura (1980) discuss the role of polyploidy in insect evolution. Vrijenhoek (1994) reviews the literature on parthenogenesis and hybridogenesis in fish. I will tackle this topic in greater depth in the next version of this document.


  • BBC


    Thank you for the information, sincerely!

    However, the plant and animal kingdoms are different. Also, these happened by men introducing the change, where did it happen naturally? And did plants evolve from a single cell also?

  • Will

    Plants and animals have the same bacterial ancestor. If you go back far enough we all come from the same place.

  • Epicurus

    the plant and animal kingdoms are certainly from the same place. the plants came first. mainly types of algae that would produce oxygen on early earth, then land plants.

    this is the most accurate image i could find showing our complete phylogenetic tree of life from the first single cell to all types of life (Animals, Plants, Protists, Archaea, Bacteria, and Fungi)

    farm1 . static . flickr . com /116/311587917_2782332352 . jpg

  • SexMoneyMonkey


    Plants evolved from single cells aswell, yes. Wouldn't make sense if they didn't really. Some Algea is still single celled, I believe. There's an article on national geographic that I'll link in another post (in case I don't avoid moderation :P)

  • SexMoneyMonkey

    news . nationalgeographic . com/ news /2001 /06 /0604_wirealgae . html

  • bo

    I dont comment much but let me just say God did not talk to you BBC. He just didnt. I'm sorry to have to tell you this. Sad that this is all I can add to all the information on this thread but never the less its true. I've asked God to talk to me and he hasnt. Am I not good enough? Are you more worthy of a phone call from God? Everybody please pray for God to reach out to me because if God is real, I would love to be a follower. I'll bow down a million times a day for God if he can touch my soul and give me a peace of mind about death! I want to go to heaven!!!

  • Charles B.

    Razor: Well, now. Aren't genetics just miraculous!?! How wonderful that we share similarly constructed DNA with the rest of God's creation. That's logical as ears hear whether you're a pig or a person, and eyes see, brains think, etc., so I'm not surprised that genes are similar as well. God has made all things well and show the touch of the master Creator of all, and not a common distant source for all life.

    Epic: Genes and DNA were made by God for the purpose of reproduction and they work according to set laws. Mutations can occur and most end with the death of the mutant. However, variation in plants and insects is part of God's plan as well as He's made the genetics to meet the needs of the plants and animals for adaptation, but I would bet a million trillion dollars that all of the 50,000 generations of e-coli are still bacteria, and given an eternity more, not a single one will ever crawl out of that petri dish on it's own 4 legs!

    Ironically, I love the variety that God allows in his creation as He is the author of the "perfect individualism." No two people are the same, not even identical twins as they have dissimilar finger prints, etc.

    I've also been told that every single snowflake has six sides, is made of ice, but is totally unique from every other snowflake that has ever fallen in all of history. Trillions and trillions upon trillions of individual snowflakes and no two alike? What a mighty God I serve! Only God could be so concerned about "snowflakes" as to set an example of His infinite care and love for us in such a small thing.

    In the face of God's own handiwork of infinite variety, Man-induced variety in plants and bacteria don't impress me in the least, nor convince me that such variations can become species different than what they are: plants remain plants; bugs, bugs; germs, germs; animals, animals; people, people.

    Side note: I have found a lovely variant of dandelion near my school with white petal flowers (not the puff ball shape of the yellow ones) with a yellow center! The ugly leaves are just the same, but the flowers are stunning. I need to get a picture. It was so pretty. Then it got weeded out by the school gardener! I was quite upset. I've seen only 8 plants in the area, and 4 have already been weeded out. I need to get one of the others before they all get weeded too. The standard yellow ones are everywhere. I showed the gardener one and tried to tell him, "Don't kill it! Let me transplant it" but I'll see tomorrow if he understood me. He tried to tell me it was just a dandelion, and was about to whack it for me, but I stopped him. He seems to have no eye for the rarity. I'm a true conservationist at heart. I want to see if it will seed, and I assume it can as there has been more than one in the school grounds, but it blooms so very much slower than the others and I've yet to see one go to seed--they've all got weeded before then!

    If it turns out to be a new species, I'll name it after my self in humility for saving it from the school gardener's shovel. ;-) Nothing would please me more than to find a new species of flower and get it going in other places. I wonder if it can "self-pollinate" or if it needs to pollinate with another one of the white flowers from another plant. I hope I don't kill them all trying to save them. It might be a hybrid and may not seed at all. I'll let you know how things turn out for the great dandelion expedition of 2010!


  • Charles B.

    BO: We were posting at the same time. You have my solomn promise I will pray for you tonight and as I remember to. Sometimes God is very quiet, other times you just know it's Him. He IS speaking to your heart; obey the one things He's told you now, and more will come in time.

  • Charles B.

    Bo: P.S. Did you get to read my post about the snowflakes? Eveyone is different. No two are alike. God speaks to everyone individually. The way He reaches my heart may not be the way He touches your exactly the same way, or the way He touched BBC's heart. If God cares enough to make every snowflake unique, He cares about us individually too. Just a thought.

  • Hesus

    Praying... how to think you are being useful without doing anything at all.

  • Achems Razor

    @ Charles B:

    Then you are admitting that we are also Animals, "The Human Animal"

    New Dandelion?? Maybe it is an Alien species from space?

    Be careful, could be like, "invasion of the body snatchers type"! (LOL)
    Could be as believable as what you believe in, right?

  • Will


    Just... wow.

    Everytime I think I've seen the absolute extreme end of zealous rhetoric and dogma, the very limits of it in terms of how far it can go, I have but to come to this site and read some of the comments. Every single time I turn around someone on this site has moved the goal-posts and set a brand-new standard.

    I can't decide whether I envy the ignorance that some folks suffer, because they say that ignorance is bliss, or whether I pity them. I almost want to put my arm around their shoulder and hug them, the way you do with a really keen, eager, well-meaning kid with Down's Syndrome. I just want to give them a hug and tell them "Hey, man, never mind all that, you wanna ice-cream cone?"

  • BBC


    I am not worthy and i wonder all the time, why me? I have done nothing to deserve this relationship He has given me. I was not even trying to find Him, i was trying to disprove Him and the Bible. Yet, He chose to speak, and i am forever changed (i am not perfect, i still am a selfish man. But Christ's blood covers me, and i am not the same person i was, and He will complete this process He has begun in me). I now see what the eye can not see The Invisible God, who breathed life into the world.

    Bo, i am not better then you or more worthy then you. This is grace (undeserved favour). I know people were praying for me, and so Bo, i will be praying for you. May the Lord extend His grace to you by drawing you to Jesus Christ and may your eyes see, and your ears hear the wonders of God.

  • Achems Razor

    @ BBC:

    Do you ever talk in tongues??

  • BBC


    No i have never spoken in tongues. What are your thoughts on tongues?

  • SexMoneyMonkey


    I'm relatively sure that we're only a few years, decades at most, until we figure out the mental illness that causes people to believe in these things. There's a documentary about how religious experiences are just seizures in the brain, isn't there?

  • Epicurus

    Charles you know EVERYTHING you typed there is exactly what i have argued against showing facts all along the way and all you do is made assertions.

    you have wasted enough of my time and are no longer worthy of any responses as you are unable to follow mature conversation.

    oh and about your miraculous discovery....

    White False Dandelion
    Pyrrhopappus carolinianus
    Asteraceae (Composite Sunflower) Family
    wildflowers . jdcc . edu/White%20False%20Dandelion2 . jpg

    also the snowflakes are a perfect example of complexity and APPARENT design coming about by COMPLETELY NATURAL acts. no need for your god thing here.

    you have completely killed any hope i had for you being an honest intelligent person.

    @BBC, why no response?

  • Achems Razor

    @ BBC:

    Speaking in tongues. Well it is very eerie, spooky actually.

    When I first heard it, sounded like coming right from the depths of all consciousness, from the depths of the soul,(what I class as the Entity), could almost understand what is was being said.
    I do believe speaking in tongues was part of new age type of beliefs!
    Religion couldn't give it a name, so they somehow incorporated it into their belief system.

  • SexMoneyMonkey


    I think BBC has remained behind the defense of "We haven't seen it occur naturally" as it was what he stated last time.

    @Charles B

    I'm forced to agree with Epicurus here (Which I do most often anyways) in saying that you are either honest or intelligent but, I can't see a way in which you are both.

    @Achems Razor

    I think "tongues" probably have to do with social constraints and just shedding them and letting whatever comes out come out.

  • Achems Razor

    @ S.M.M:

    Actually was looking at "tongues" on the net just now. a lot of stuff on there about it.

    Much more then social restraints, I think.

    I am as baffled as you guys, as to how gullible and "child like" the religee's are! completely unbelievable!!

  • Charles B.

    Epic: I highly suspected the "dandelions" I had discovered were already a discovered species, I was just playing around with you guys a little bit. But, ya never know! Coulda been a new species. But they are pretty. I'm going to try and save them from getting weeded out of the school grounds and grow some in my classroom. Thanks for finding them for me on-line.

    Also, yes, you can view the snowflakes as resulting from a natural process and the set laws of water crystalline formation incorporating an element of chance, but whereas you see a mindless law, I see a very detailed "Lawgiver" that enjoys even the hidden beauty of the individual snowflakes. You say "God is nowhere" while I say "God is now here"! It's all a matter of where you put that one little space, and I recommend not putting it between your years. You try to crush my faith and I try to get your goat (as you seemed a bit upset in your post). Let's call it even for the day!


    Razor: Religious people live longer on average than non-religious people; if anything, the faith factor and how it affects the brain functions should be seen as a gift from God, and if you don't believe in God, then it's an evolutionary advancement and a definite advantage and doesn't need a cure. Perhaps Atheists just need "gene therapy" or something to get their brains quivering in the right way to understand the true nature of the universe. ;-) JKBTW.

    Anyway, time will soon enough tell who is correct. If I'm not correct, and all I believe in is fallacy, then sadly I'll not no it at all when I shut my eyes for the first time in death, but I very much suspect that moment of my "death" to be the best of my entire "life" so far when my Savior I will see face to Face.

    Double Peace for you today!

    Charles B.

  • Charles B.

    SSMonkey: Sorry, you were the one that mentioned the brain thing and not Razor.

    I do try to be honest and intelligent both, but I don't draw a division between intelligent and "spiritual" as well. People usually find what they are looking for. The spiritual seeker will find something at least, and obviously the Atheists find the "nothing" at all that they suspect is out there. Razor finds his unique mix with aliens and such.

    God says that He will be found by those that seek Him with their whole hearts. Everyone else walks right past Him and never notices He is there, like the perhaps millions of people that think all snowflakes are all the same and don't understand or even care about the beauty that they overlook all the time. We just see the world with a different perspective.

    Peace to you. Cheers!

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @Charles B. - I think you have it a little backward. I think when a theist looks for god and finds nothing he becomes an atheist. Not "People usually find what they are looking for." I looked for Santa for almost a quarter of my life. I started off life believing in all manners of supernatural beings. To me it seems that the harder you look the less you will find.

    I will say that those who have "found" there religion are just the ones that stopped looking.

    Everyday I try to squeeze more information about the universe into my small and slow mind. Everyday I consume morsels of how the universe goes round. I don't think i have "found" what I'm looking for. I hope I never find it because the search has been an exciting, wondrous quest of self enlightenment and discovery. It has been a test of everything I am to see how far this simple mind can go down the rabbit hole. I feel that I get a glimpse of how Schrödinger, Bohr, Planck, or any of the others must have felt when all the neurons fire just right and you know you understand just a little bit more.

    For the first time in history the world has woven a master tapestry of truth and logic and I wrap myself in it and I look at those on the outside and I ask "Why not you" and I get the reply "You dont know all the answers", and I whisper to myself "I hope I never do"

  • Jason

    I could of used Dawkins a few days ago when a pair of Goddies turned up at my door. They were nice enough, but after i told them that i wasn't interested in hearing about "Our Lord and Savour" they asked me if i believed in The Big Bang and Evolution, I simply said "Yep", with a smile, then with an uneducated and ignorant view point proceded to tell me that my belief in Science was WRONG, then, for that same point of view explained to me that neither happened and way that is so, i had to cut them off mid sentence, i said "You have a belief, which i respect, now kindly respect mine, this conversation is over" i bidded them good day and as they started to move away i closed the door.

    After watching these, frankly brilliant documentaries, Dawkins is a Legend, i went to Amazon and bought three of his books, The Selfish Gene, The God Delusion, and The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence of Evolution, and while i was there i picked up a copy of, On the Origin of Species. I intend to bone up on this subject, gather as much knowledge as my brain can handle on Evolution, and as a cherry on top, learn all i can on The Big Bang Theory.

    And the next time the God Squad come-a-knocking, i'll be ready, armed with scientifically proven Facts, and not the "God Did It" excuse, because thats all it is.

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @ Jason - You missed the classic "The Blind Watchmaker".

    I applaud your effort to gain knowledge. Just remember that the best debater is fully versed in both sides.

  • Jason

    @HaTe_MaChInE - I just ordered The Blind Watchmaker :)

    I respect, and try not to be ignorant of religion, I learn what i can, tolerance is the way forward.

  • Charles B.

    Jason: "Tolerance is the way forward?" Oh please! You don't sound like a very "tolerant" person, Jason. You're planning on overwhelm little old ladies (most likely JW's) with all your nuggets of knowledge on a subject that you know most of them haven't studied at all. You are very intolerant, except that your religion is atheism and evolution.

    Hate-Machine: I'm sorry you lost your faith. There is a way that seems right to many, but it will only lead to death and Hell, Hate-Machine. But, you are right in some aspect; many share your feelings and will turn their backs on sound doctrine and the Christian faith. The Bible says that in the last days "the love of MOST will grow cold and they will not endure sound doctrine." In case you don't understand that, it means that even true Christians will give up the faith in vast number near the end of time and near the completion of this era. I just hate to see that happen; souls will be lost; lives destroyed; people deceived and lost forever in Hell. These are indeed very dangerous days.

    If you want to know my heart, deep down in my soul, I've often asked God why so few people really believe and why it's not the other way around that only a very small few should be lost forever. I've received no answer to that. I suppose it grieves God's heart much more than it does mine, otherwise I wouldn't feel the sorrow of such now.

    Keep on Hating, Hate-Machine, but remember that without Christ as your covering, all that you do in the name of "hate" you will be accountable for in the day of judgment, such as suggesting that Jason get the "Blind Watchmaker" as well as the other books he has. You're contribution in your mind may seem wise in your eyes, but you point people towards faithlessness, and you do it with glee. I'm so sad sometimes for you guys.

    Are there truly that few faith-filled hearts in the world these days? I suppose it's true. I can barely endure the sadness sometimes for those that hear the Message but still never turn back around. I just don't understand you and those like you; how can you have such a faithless heart? Just turn around like I did. It's not too late, but soon shall be.

    With fullest sincerety of heart,

    Charles B.

  • Achems Razor

    @ H.M.

    Where can I throw up.
    The very things you accuse me of, you do with impunity. Inclusion of the fathers of Q.M. "Schrodinger, Bohr, Planck", like you know what you are talking about!
    going down the rabbit hole, what a joke! All you are doing is digging a hole!

    Talk about a pseudo-scientist!

  • bo

    @charles True the bacteria would not walk out the petri dish but thats not natural selection from what I understand. The surroundings mutate with time. loooong time. The experiment is only to show mutations can happen from what I understand. If it can happen in that setting (as little mutation as that was), then it can happen as Darwin suggested.

    Someone said that he asked god why so few people believe? Thats not true its opposite. More people believe in God than dont. I'm willing to keep an open mind about higher being but I cant understand why people keep referencing the Bible as if it means anything. I dont care what the Bible says. No disrepspect I'm just not familiar with it as a history book of any facts. Maybe I'm wrong.

  • bo

    Another thing I'm curious about. What do atheist think about 'love.' I see it as a feeling built in our DNA to want to stay together as a parent for a better chance of off spring surviving. Pretty sad but I have to stay consitent with my believes. If I dont believe in God than I cant believe in love. I'm so confused haha. Appreciate the comments.

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @Achems Razor - Shouldn't let your emotions guide you. Inability to control your emotions is a sign of a weak mind.

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @Charles B. - Not to be crude but losing ones faith is like losing your virginity. Just a part of life that everyone goes through. Might be a little exciting might be a little scary, but after 20 years you look back and wonder what all the fuss was about.

    I am prepared to accept my fate. I don't need a christian doctrine to keep my love from growing cold. If a good man will go to hell for living a good life without the knowledge of Jesus... So be it. I am a skeptic. I refuse to believe "just because". If that is a sin... So be it. If a miracle happened and Jesus himself came down tomorrow. I will stand next to any so called "christians" and be judged. If Im found unworthy... So be it.

    I dont think Jesus would approve of ignoring evidence of the world just to follow a book he never read. If there is a true faith out there it will have nothing to do with science. Any one that claims science can prove their faith is an even bigger fool.

    Darwin didnt wonder... what science can I use to further my beliefs. He followed the truth and fond an answer that changed his belief. That is why he is great. I ask you Charles B. what truth did you discover... or are you just following what you are being told.

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @bo - " If I dont believe in God than I cant believe in love." It s a guilt trip tactic. Just like saying Jesus loves you so you should love him. This is why most children feel "ashamed" when the admit the question god. It takes many years to build a good logic structure in children but it only takes 1 sentence to prey on there emotions.

    "If you dont love Jesus you are bad!" That stuff freaks out adults let alone little kids.

    And remember that no where in the bible does it say you cant read any book you want... Just dont sacrifice you first born to a golden calf and you should be fine.

    Well.. unless god tells you so that is.

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    Wow... add a couple of "y" and switch there for their and the above might actually be close to english... a little distracted this morning... Im helping host a youth shooting event and safety course. OMG yes I put guns in the hands of children.

  • Joe_nyc

    NRA? Stay away from me, you frea-k.

    But I enjoyed your post to Charles B. ;)

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @Joe_nyc - Not NRA.. Its a local Rod and Gun club (Fishing and Hunting). We give monthly firearm awareness and safety classes directed at youth. Basically its a "If you see a gun, dont touch it, go tell an adult" and advanced classes for proper handling, storage, etc.

    You would be surprised how many kids come in thinking guns are toys but leave with a healthy respect for them.

    I got a comment in moderation to bo. I think you might enjoy it as well.

  • Keith

    That was a very quick judgement Joe from New York, you seem to be awfully sure of all situations and your position regarding them. HaTe_MaChinE I must say your name has mislead me on many occasions regarding multiple comments you have left about documentaries I have watched. You seem be anything but a hate machine and I respect a lot of your views. And I think it is great what your fishing and hunting club is doing, though I am not in any form a supporter of guns or the NRA, I admire those who grip their reality and choose to educate rather then avoid and pretend the problem of a child being confronted with a gun will never arise. And Bo don't be mislead by your feeling of confusion and take the easy way out. Never give up the pursuit of knowledge and never ever let what others have told you to be true get in the way of your own enlightenment. Truth cannot be told it can only be realized my good friend.

  • Jason

    @Charles B. wrote
    "Jason: "Tolerance is the way forward?" Oh please! You don't sound like a very "tolerant" person, Jason. You're planning on overwhelm little old ladies (most likely JW's) with all your nuggets of knowledge on a subject that you know most of them haven't studied at all. You are very intolerant, except that your religion is atheism and evolution"

    I love the way you twisted what i wrote. I don't sound like a very tolerant person?, I'm willing to educate myself in both sides of the discussion, what more do you want. I'm planning to overwhem little old ladies? and where did you get that nugget of information, i didn't mention weather they where men or womem, old or young, you took it upon yourself to decide, in truth they were two rather nice and friendly Gents, but then you call me intolerant, they weren't even going to exerise the idea of someone not believing in god, and i'm not sure about what religion they believed in because i didn't ask and they didn't say, my neighbours are JW's and they leave us well enough alone, point in fact, my best friend is Catholic, so i think i am extremely tolerant. You say that they most likely haven't studied the science's, well thats not my fault, is it. I love talking to people about their religion and faith, because i don't want to be ignorant of it.

    You call me an intolerant, atheist, evolutionist. You presumme to know me, when infact we've never meet, you make a judgement based on a comment on a website. Book, Judge, cover. You twisted what i wrote and said "except that your religion is atheism and evolution" like thats a bad thing, whos intolerant now.

    Fact is, i'm more then willing to chat about religion and science alike, but at least i don't go around telling people that what they believe is wrong, weather thats what i believe or not, unlike the two gents at my door, i have a respect for peoples beliefs.

    You can believe what i have written here, or not, i don't really care, i just wanted to set a few things strait after you twisted my comment, i don't know you and were unlikely to ever meet in person so your opinion of me is completely irrelevant, but i still believe that tolerants and understanding are important in the issue of science and religion, and both sides should educate themselves in both areas, again i really don't care weather you agree with that or not, that just how i see it.

    Good day Sir, enjoy your weekend.

    Be Well.

  • Joe_nyc

    Keith, pot calling the kettle black?

  • Keith

    Well when you call someone a freak without truly understanding the situation is in its own sense pre judgement, but you are in fact entitled to your own opinions my kind sir.

  • Keith

    But then again you may be right, I just love a good discussion without too much influence from pre determined accusations or beliefs about any subject, even ones personality. You are probably not the person that was portrayed to me in your short comment calling Hate_Machine a freak, in fact Im sure your not. So in that sense yes I may be the pot in this situation haha.

  • BBC


    "Another thing I’m curious about. What do atheist think about ‘love.’ I see it as a feeling built in our DNA to want to stay together as a parent for a better chance of off spring surviving. Pretty sad but I have to stay consitent with my believes. If I dont believe in God than I cant believe in love"

    If love was built into DNA to keep parents together for a better chance of offspring survival, then why are there so many single parents? People do not understand love. It's easy to love people who are nice to you. True love would be loving those who hate you.

    Many of us are fooled to think because we show a kindness to a person we know how to love (this includes kindness to a stranger). However, how many of those people showing kindness to others are doing it out of true goodness? If they are honest with themselves, they will see there is almost always a selfish motive behind it. For example, it makes them feel good, makes them look good in front of their piers (like advertising), it gets them a tax break, or in the religees case, it gets them into paradise when they die.

    That is not true love. It is self love, and it is no love at all. It is only possible to express true love, if the person has experienced it. This is why most children who are not loved growing up, repeat this unlove to their kids and continue the cycle.

    This is love, that though the world hates God, He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him, will have a restored spiritual life with God. Jesus died for mankind while we were still enemies with Him. That is love, to lay down your life for your enemy.

    @Hate Machine,

    No one loves God or Jesus, no one truly seeks God. We all love ourselves even the religees who go to church. However, God will make Himself known personally to people. From this point on people are able to pursue to know the Almighty God.

    Jesus says, "if you love me you will obey my commandments". His commandments are "love God and love your neighbour". No one not even the Pope or mother Theresa (i am being careful with mother theresa, but she was human) can love all people at all times. We are imperfect beings. To truly love is divine, and when God reveals Himself to people, and they encounter Jesus Christ crucified and truly see; the process of loving like God begins. Lives and relationships are restored. People can be honest with others and themselves.

    And yes Hate Machine, you are right many people use [“If you dont love Jesus you are bad!” That stuff freaks out adults let alone little kids] to make money, and control people. Perfect love drives out fear. If these people knew Jesus personally they would not fear, because they would no longer be under judgement.

    They would be free to love.


    If Charles appears to be treating you ill, keep in mind most everyone on here is against him. And it must not be easy for him, and he is human like you, and he is not perfect.

    With his cold exaggerated assumptions aside, did what he say hold any truth? You do not need to answer, i just want you to ask yourself that.

  • Epicurus

    if people didnt want their beliefs being laughed at and made fun of...they shouldnt have such silly beliefs.

  • Hulk

    Seriously guys,Neurobiology have alot to say abt the fallibility of the human brain.Delusion,hallucinations, all these can happen to a perfectly normal person.Sadly it apply to creationists.Our brain wire to protect us and using the least amount of energy to accomplish tasks. If once upon a time you were desperate and you hoped n wished for some intervention,something might happen to you subjectively because your brain uses less energy giving you what you want as compared to continue suffering and calling for help aka spoiling your body.Same thing as the placebo effect.

    Im kinda new to the thread btw, been ard for awhile though,just didnt comment on stuff. Hi =)

  • Charles B.

    Jason: I forgot about the Mormons! Rarely do other denominations go door-to-door. If they were two gents (probably young ones with name tags that say "elder Soinso" on it, with white shirts and ties, then their Mormons. The Mormons rarely use little old ladies.

    The JW's are usually little old ladies with lots of free time, but I suppose not always. I figured that's who you were preparing your "attack" on! LOL The Mormons have to get their missions requirements out of the way while they are still young and with fewer life obligations. Might as well let 'em have it then, but be polite and don't super-fact-bomb the little old ladies if you can help it, out of "tolerance" if nothing else.


  • Faith

    If God is Almighty, how come He has to send His son to be crucified since everything is possible to Him? If He created all thing by his word, why can't He save by his word also since His word is powerful? Sacrifice is part of the occult and ritual made for gods. Why do you need to drink someone's blood to be saved and to eat his flesh also? there is no such a thing like a Spiritual blood and flesh; blood is blood and flesh is flesh. Now, can you eat and drink someone's flesh and blood? And don't forget that Wine is Wine and can never test like blood. About love, can you love a murder? a child molester? a women raper?

    I don't know about you, but me I can't. We all love ourself first then care or help other, even God loves himself more because He lives in the heavens peacefully and put man on earth to till the ground and to suffer. If God love the world, why did He bring the flood and burn Sodom and Gomorrah while letting Satan on the leash? Why did He allow Satan to destroy Job's good, kill his children, and curse him with a disease?

    God doesn't love every one, He hates some people too by cursing them, like He cursed Cain and other also; Even Jesus did cursed Pharisees, scribes,and lawyers; Jesus even cursed a tree. What do you say about that? Everything God created was good, so where evil came from? God will never reveal himself, even Jesus, because if they would, they would save these innocent children who were and are being molested since He sees everything(Omnipotent and Omnipresent). He's never there when one needs Him, since He wasn't there when Adam and Eve got tempted, when Abel got killed. If the world hates God, but children don't. A child molester needs his penis cuts off, and a murder needs to be repay according to his deeds.

  • bo

    @hate_machine I agree with you, problem is I'm not talking about love for Jesus Christ or god I'm talking about society's definition of "love."

    @bbc I agree there are too many single parents, but that doesn't mean thats proof of 'love' not being in DNA. Whether parents stay together or not, I believe they do go through a hard time with the decision "for the kids".

    Maybe my statements were too general so let me try again. Penis gets hard so it can be inserted into wet vagina. The 'love' and lust we feel is so that the penis can get hard. And then having a baby releases chemicals to both parents to make them feel like they should stay together. Whether they do or not makes no difference to me because that feeling was initially there. For example, even tho there are different circumstances, guys just don't go around making babies with a clear conscious.

    @bbc mentioned "" well I dont believe you can love friends. We love family because we want our genes to succeed in life. We care for our baby making partner but not really love. We love our baby because we share same genes. As baby making partners grow older the need to stay together is no longer really there so they tend to grow apart. True we all have heard stories of older "lovers." But none of their testimony have been scientifically studied.

    I'm trying to paraphrase as best I can but I don't want this to be too long. My main point is that if you believe in Darwin's evolution theory and believe that there is no God, than how can you not agree with my beliefs on love as stated in prior paragraphs. Society's definition of "love" is over analyzed when in fact its just a feeling a few species have, to get aroused, make babies, protect any carriers of our genes. IMO my definition of "love" passes all of Darwinian tests.

    Please excuse bad grammar.

  • bo

    I see my comment have been flagged. I hope admin understands I'm coming from a genuine viewpoint! Sorry if it came off as too vulgar. lol. I really am interested in what Sagan, Hawkins, Dawkins, Darwin and all the other usuals think of society's definition of love.

  • Charles B.

    BO: I doubt you'll get the major Evolutionists (especially the dead ones) to comment on this thread, but my take is this: Humans love because we are created in the image of God, and apart from God, love is just a shadow of what it is supposed to be. Go to the Source of true unselfish love, not the Evolutionist peanut gallery for advice.


  • charlie

    I am glad people are starting to see the fairy tale called religion for what it is. So many people have been killed,hanged and burned for not believing in the so called word. Religious cleansing has destroyed whole entire civilizations and for what reason, all in the name of god.This is no leader I would want to fallow it would be like blindly fallowing Hitler because you believe he created the world.Life is grand in its struggle to continue on, and its amazing to see evolution in action every day.Evolution happens daily in front of our own eyes.Just look around you, your dog,your cat the food you eat all did not exist unit about 2 thousand years ago created by our own hand through years of selective breeding and natural evolution.In this manor you can say the domestic cat and dog are new creatures that have just evolved in front of our eyes. So there it is evolution in front of your face .

  • SexMoneyMonkey


    It'd be interesting to study how love evolved, and it's probably something that we'd be able to see at all levels of it's evolution today. It does fit very much into evolution as the ones you love the most tend to be your mate and your children and then the rest of your family. This would fit right in with the selfish gene (the gene survives because the last generation male protected the female therefore many offspring and then those offspring were in turn protected by their parents).

  • Charles B.

    Charlie: Breeding for selective traits in domestic animals is not evolution. That's smoke and mirrors. Without people, the dogs would go back to a wolf-look in 3 generations (roughly wolf-like). Take a look at the farrel dogs world-wide; they're all about the same.

    SMMonkey: How does the selfish gene theory deal with the selfish act of abortion? That's 100% opposite of the Selfish Gene theory that we do actions out of compultion to replicate our DNA. Just curious, if you're willing to answer in a civil way.

  • Ruth

    BBC: I would like to hear your answer to Faith's question too. Please. Thanks.

  • Hulk

    @Charles B
    Charles, selective breeding is evolution. It is called artificial selection google it out if you want to know more about it. Actually there is 1 book out there which can answer all your questions its called "the greatest show on earth"

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @Charles B. - Dingos and African wild dogs look nothing like wolves. They found a niche and are surviving.

    "Breeding for selective traits" is proof that the ability to change a species is innate in every species. Insects adapt to pesticides. Bacteria adapt to antibiotics. Fruit flies adapt to thousands of experiments every year. The whole world adapts and changes. It is in the nature of every living being to adapt and evolve. The fact that we share so much of our DNA with all things in life show that we are all related and although distant... we are cousins none the less.

  • Randy

    Everything Hate_Machine just said, plus this:

    All of the species we created, (every farm animal and plant is a creation of human engineering), we did in just a few thousand years. Look at a grey wolf, (roughly the size of a Prius,lol!) and a chiuahua (spelling?), see what can be done in such a short time.

    How much more could natural selection do in roughly a billion or more years?

    To think of a billion in terms that your mind may be able to grasp, I recently heard this on an economics program describing a billion dollars, "realize that a billion hours ago we were in the stone-age..."

    A billion years is a long, LONG time.

  • SexMoneyMonkey

    @Charles B

    I don't know that the Selfish Gene is a theory as much as it is an explanation. It simply states that the Genes that move on have done so because they are the ones that have survived not because they are the best for the species (Although one goes hand in hand in most cases). For instance something that has a billion offspring will probably not go extinct no matter what it is. But that doesn't change the abilities of any one member of that species.

    Trying to explain abortion on such a small scale probably would not work. You can't explain everything by one rule of a set of rules. Keep in mind though that it could have to do with the female's need to choose her mate (or more specifically the father of her child) in order to make sure he has the best genes from what she can tell.

    An example:
    Female A is aroused.
    Male A is around.
    Male B is not around but seems much better.
    Female A has intimate relations with A because he is there.
    When Female A finds out she is pregnant by the lesser (in her eyes) male she wishes to abort it.
    Female A does so and then get impregnated by Male B and has the child

    This way the Female's genes have a better chance of surviving the next generation because they are shared with the genes of Male B rather than Male A.

    This is of course only one possible scenario that ends in abortion.

  • Qbaca

    REligion is for

  • Hardy

    'Without people, the dogs would go back to a wolf-look in 3 generations (roughly wolf-like).'

    Just another reason to give up on this discussion. Really Charles, I'd love to see you try.

  • bo

    @charles b I asked a question in hopes maybe other people have ran into material that could answer my question. Your definition of the word love and god is very uplifting and makes me feel good when you say it. Problem is I'm asking if it really exist and you offer nothing but poetic words. I'm happy whether love exist or not. I'm happy if I just rot in the ground. I'm looking for answers because i'm a curious person and so far religion has offered me nothing but uplifting poetic scriptures. And if thats the case, there is nothing wrong with that. I just happen to see love as process to make babies and you assume that if true, its a bad thing.

    @sexmoneymonkey you put it better than I did! thanks! So maybe you can love partner because they have future chances of carrying offspring. Didnt think of that.

  • Hulk


    Hey bo,i took neuroscience b4 and ill try explain a little abt love from what i can remember. The feeling of falling in love is a secretion of hormone(forgot the term) by your brain when you look at someone of the opposite sex who is attractive according to your social convention.(assuming your are heterosexual) We have evolved to produce such hormone when we identify a potential mating partner.The brain gives you the feeling of falling in love as a reward to pursue the potential mating partner.

  • Charles B.

    Bo: I don't know what to tell ya then. I'm at my witt's end if you think it's just poetry when I talk about God's love. Best of luck to you, however.

    Hardy: If you put dogs of all breeds together and let them go at it, yes, they all come out looking like the ugly mutts you see world-wide in about 3 generations (or less), and they are not far from wolf-like or dingo-like dogs pretty quick. The big breeds get smaller, and the little breeds get bigger and you're left with the universal ugly gutter dogs. The one noticiple difference is the viciousness seems to be lacking that you see in real wolves and wolf mixes (towards other animals, not so much people).

    African wild dogs are pretty unique looking however. That I admitt. I was thinking about them the other day. Their numbers are critically low at this point in history and time; I do so hope that they make it as it would be yet another human-induced extinction of a unique spiecies. I track Whooping crane numbers too. Rough going last few year; we lost a lot of birds. I wonder why the Florida non-migritory population isn't working out like planned. Very sad.


  • Hulk


    Anyone else wana have a go at convincing a creationist? Evidences and facts dont seem to work.I give up, just let them be with their delusions.

  • Joe_nyc

    Charles, what is it about evolution that you need convincing? It almost seems like you are just arguing for the argument sake.

    I come from religious background and I have no problem accepting evolution as de facto; there is a mountain of undeniable evidences to support its claim. I hate to say this but at this point you are just ranting. Why don't you do some research THEN debate about evolution.

    You should know that I read CS Lewis because Alex(remember him? the greek guy) had recommend it and I really wanted to know what he was talking about. Let me recommend Dawkins to you. Read it and you can see for yourself what atheists are talking about.

  • Hulk

    Plaese charles. I am more than certain that it is becos ever since your childhood you have never been exposed to ideas about evolution while at the same time asked to conform to ideas of a religion for watever reasons. If you are really interested in wat we mean and dont noe where to start, try reading Prof dawkins books.His series of books will explain the ideas and the latest book "the greatest show on earth" will provide you with all the evidence u need to support the ideas he spoke of in his previous books. All of us rational atheists are not here for a show down with religion,we just deep inside our heart dont want to see our own species descend into anarchy when they dont even want to accept undeniable facts well supported with evidences. It really hurts me alot when ppl follow blindly what they are taught without questioning and i absolutely do not wana see this trait being pass down to future generations. It would really mean alot if we can even convince one creationist to look and study the evidence,hopefully making the right decision. The most repulsive and sad ppl are those who accepted evolution for a fact and stay a young earth creationist becos a fictional holy book says so. Absolute disgrace to our species.

  • Charles B.

    Joe: You may have come from a religious background, but you're obviously not a Christian. Did you ever consider yourself a "true believer" in God? If no, then your easy belief in the credibility of evolution is not that impressive and nothing to use as an example.

    In truth, I've done some moderate research on evolution. I've concluded that you can guess at one fossil or another, but the fact of the matter is that perfect whole species are found and then disappear and no inbetweens are found. Some extreme oddities are found, that may be hard to classify, but they are still complete and perfect animals and not "link" forms. There is much we do not understand about the distant past and to say that there are "mountains of undeniable evidence" is simply not correct boarding on a scientific lie.

    A great deal of evolutionary theory has been supported by supposition and theory and in many cases outright fraud on behalf of the "scientists". Why shouldn't I be skeptical when whole "missing links" have been made from pigs' teeth and falsified fossils or in one case a living modern animal's cranial bone made to look old? It sheds doubt on the whole science and it's quite obvious that their bias isn't just to study, but to prove evolution as fact when it cannot be proved as fact. There should be billions and billions of missing links given the biomass of the planet's history if evolution has been happening for millions and millions of years. Artwork would be replaced with fossil photos in progression from monkey to human if the fossils were there.

  • Charles B.

    Hulk: That was sad. You would want to "convert" a Creationist that badly? For what? To lead them to your "truth"? What if they leave truth for your well-intentioned non-truth and miss out on Heaven as a consequence? If you're right, we all end up as dirt anyway. If I'm right, there is a Hell to avoid and a Heaven to gain. What a heartache I have now.

    I will look and see if Richard Dawkins' books are in my library here at school, and if not, I can check one out in the public library when I get back to the U.S.A. this summer. I won't spend money on one.

    As far as the young Earth is concerned, it's based on the lineage of Adam until the time of Christ found in the Book of Luke. The HUGE Creationist assumption there is that the Earth and therefore the universe also was created at the time Adam was formed "from the earth." My father, a Biblical scholar in his own right believes the earth is very old, and that Adam's creation wasn't at the time the earth was first created. The young Earth folk have it wrong, I think. Dinosaurs may have existed long before the creation of Adam (during the time of Lucifer's rule on earth) and then perhaps in the Garden of Eden also. The age of the universe may be much older than the creation of the earth as God is eternal; He's in no hurry to accomplish what His timelessness desires to accomplish.

    There is a post somewhere lost in the vastness of this website that I called "Mr. B's theory of everything" where I carefully laid out my whole understanding of the paleontology of the past eras and some theories to the age of the universe, etc. If you could find it, it would at least make you think that I'm not half as unlearned, stupid, uninformed, and unthinking as you make me sound. Perhaps, if I have time, I'll search for it myself. I think it's on a Steven Hawking's thread.

    But, lastly, I'll share my heart one last time; I'm grieved in spirit posting back and forth to you guys. I'm trying to play ball in your court; I'm out of my element. When I talk to people of faith that have seen angels, or have met Jesus (Yes, literally), or been miraculously healed of cancer via prayer, and they have no doubt that God is real is real is real is real, it's like fresh air to the soul.

    Here, all that I hold to be truth and all that I hold to be dear is looked upon with disdain here in these threads.

    Hulk, God is found by the diligent seeker, not the casual wisher.

    Why would I want to ever exchange purity of heart and surety of purpose for man's theories of the ancient past that exclude God entirely? To me, it would literally be giving up my soul and turning my back on God, whom I believe to be more real than even the fleeting breath in my lungs.

    I may be a bit naive in some scientific fields, but I'm not unthinking, and I'm not deceived in any sense of the word. The Bible says that only a fool says in his heart that there is no God. To use your own words, to me, that person is the "Absolute disgrace to our species" not the Christian believer.


  • Hulk

    Forget it,there is no satisfying them.You talk about fossils like we human are suppose to be able to find all fossils throughout the history of life,the fossils description for every single creature that went extinct. Not all of them fossils will survive becos of various reasons like bone density,evironmental factors,geological restriction and also the situation they were being exposed to.We dont even need the damn fossils to tell us evolution is a fact, fossils are just a bonus. We have alot more evidences from plants,inserts,they way they behave,the way they interact etc etc. We even have the damn DNA structure comparison. Im done seriously. There is nothing we can do if your this convince that a fictional book is the way of life.

  • Hulk

    I forgot to mention what you said abt the fake fossils. Did you find them using false fossils in the national museums of science? Or did u find them on the internet where every single crap in this world can be found? Please validate your assumptions with solid evidences and references like we do with evolution.

  • Hulk

    Ultimately i have no intentions of converting you into an atheist. There are many good virtues that can be learned from the bible, but denying evolution is the same as deny the holocaust and the fact that earth rotates the sun.

  • Achems Razor

    @ Charles B:

    Here is your post, found it in a flash!

    On..."How Did The Universe Begin"...

    Mr. B'S theory of everything...12/05/2009 at 07:59


  • Joe_nyc

    Charles B

    If you really want to read Dawkins and if it's not available to you then I will send you my copy, and of course I will pay for the shipping.

    In regards to your question "Did you ever consider yourself a “true believer” in God?" the answer is yes. Perhaps more fervently than you are now. But no more.

  • Joe_nyc

    Just read it. Thanks, Razor.


    I cannot find words to describe it without insulting him so I will just shut up!

  • charles b is delusional

    charles, theres no way u can be converted from the childish stories u belive in. godd luck with that, and hope u get an awesome time in heaven.

  • Epicurus

    "I’m grieved in spirit posting back and forth to you guys. I’m trying to play ball in your court; I’m out of my element. When I talk to people of faith that have seen angels, or have met Jesus (Yes, literally), or been miraculously healed of cancer via prayer, and they have no doubt that God is real is real is real is real, it’s like fresh air to the soul."

    you surround yourself with people who share in your delusions so that you guys can reassure one another of said delusion. you go to church read the bible and talk to other nuts and in effect you get your THEOTOXINS refilled in your brain and the infection starts again.

    if you believe this earth is young you are as wrong as someone who says storks bring babies. you couldnt be more wrong.

    lets examine some things you said.

    "Dinosaurs may have existed long before the creation of Adam (during the time of Lucifer’s rule on earth) and then perhaps in the Garden of Eden also."

    prove it providing evidence outside of your bible.

    "Hulk, God is found by the diligent seeker, not the casual wisher."

    this is insulting to everyone that doesnt believe in god and has tried with their whole heart. you are an insulting rude person yet you dont even realize it. who are you to tell someone they are not diligently seeking god? who are you to tell people they arent honest enough? this is TYPICAL excuses people would make for an absent god like a fairy? you can only know of him if you clap your hands and say "i believe" over and over??? In my life time i have absolutely 110% tried to know god, any god. i have read the bible probably more than you have, i have also read the quran and a couple of the Vedas. i have studied as many religions as possible while studying anthropology and evolutionary psychology.

    i think i have looked harder than you, and you have been fooled into believing something and thus believe you know the answer and no longer even try to understand god. rather you just FIT god into your lack of understanding.

    i cant believe how you can be so holier than thou, and blame OTHERS for being rude to you.

  • Hulk


    Hey there epi. I just wan to point out that there is a very fine line between "diligent seeker" and potential delusional.
    There is a difference between seeker and wisher. If we go too deep from seeking to constantly hoping and wishing for it(especially when constantly being fed tat belief). Our brain is very susceptible to be shaped to believe in delusions or even perceiving them. Im glad you kept your head and goals clear when going down that road.

  • Epicurus

    i was lucky to have not had a religious upbringing so when i was examining the beliefs it all seemed very strange rather than normal like it would had i been raised with it.

  • bo

    @charles b

    haha Thanks for the comments anyhow. I come from a place where I have never been introduced to God so I hope you understand I'm not disrespecting but rather just explaining the best I can what it sounds like to me. Gods love means absolutely nothing to me but I sense that its an important thing in your faith. I cant comprehend what it actually means. "god created us in his image" I have absolutely no clue what that means. I dont even know where to start. I've attended bible studies and when I ask questions there is never an answer but just more reference to passages in the Bible. Am I suppose to let go of all beliefs and just lie to myself that the passages is credible?

  • Charles B.

    Bo: For you I'll go back out on a limb and endure just a few more jabs from everyone to answer your question “'God created us in his image' I have absolutely no clue what that means. I don't even know where to start."

    That actually seems like a sincere question. I'm surprised people can answer even simple questions like this. Perhaps they don't understand your deep mistrust for the Bible.

    To be created in the "image of God" means not so much our physical look and appearance, but our moral and ethical understanding of the world. Animals cannot be held accountable for their moral actions as they do not know right from wrong, good or bad. Something like a dog can understand "punishment" and "reward" for actions, but there is no "moral" element to the dogs actions.

    People have an eternal soul and we are accountable to God for our actions, both good and bad. We are "like God" in that we innately know that there is a "good" and there is an "evil" as long as we are honest with ourselves. I think you know when you have committed an evil act (or sin), and no one really needs to tell you, don't you? That's the part of you that is "created in the image of God." That's what we call our "conscience" and that is what differentiates us from animals.

    As for the love of God, I don't think that we can fully understand God's love at this point in time. It's the greatest mystery of the universe. But, really, that's good news, as we have all of eternity to learn and understand God's love deeper on the other side. Happy days lay ahead. :-)


  • Charles B.

    Epic, Joe and Charles Overy: To the best of my ability, I forgive you guys. Sincerely. I guess you all neither comprehend my heart nor my intentions fully.

    I pray that you all find full-hearted Peace someday.

  • Hulk

    Mass religious delusion, just like mass cultural delusion proved to be deadly once again,just like what happened in the holocaust

  • go2mark

    I have a question for the evolutionists :
    If life was able to occur spontaneously why do we have or need genders and why would there only be just 2 of them, why not 3 or 5 or 100 . why would the natural world have developed males and females when life was able to continue to reproduce from the first cell with out them. you may have a good answer for this and i am sure it is a scientific one.
    Also i think that when God said do not eat from the tree of knowledge that he was telling us that we would never fully understand but have fun trying.

    btw: i believe virus and bacteria evolve through malformations and they do not have gender.
    or do they ? // at what stage in development of the cell is gender introduced ? i suppose it is a function of the DNA . but some cells are gender biased and other are not right ?

  • Hardy

    The answers are out there, buy yourself a modern biology book if you really and sincerely want to know how evolution works. I've had enough of writing paragraphs of information for people who have already made up their minds.

    'I'm too old for this sh*t.' - R. Murtaugh

    (Sorry if I'm misunderstanding your post. Personal frustration, that's all.)

  • Randy


    The most dangerous predators on this planet are not lions and tigers but viruses and batceria and other microbial organisms. When complex celluar life forms were evolving they were easy prey for viruses because viruses copy the genetic structure of a host in order to covertly infect them.

    The easiest and best way to reproduce is, of course, through mytosis, or cloning and that was the course nature took for a few hundred million years but the predators were winning the fight so a new strategy was needed.

    The purpose of sexual reproduction was to combine two different genetic codes making a new one that would be alien to the prevalent predator organisms.

    But it is an arms race and each generation has to step up the defense as the viruses and other predators are always evolving new ways to attack the codes. That's how the flu works and why there are pandemics on a fairly regular schedule, (we are overdue for one, which is why the CDC is on alert and goes crazy everytime the H1N1 evolves a new strain.).

    That is why every fetus starts out as female and then mutates to a male if the hormones are right. It goes from XX to XY, the mutation. That's right, men are mutants!

    Many species of amphibians can change sex at will and many flatworms can reproduce both sexually and with mytosis. Indeed, it was the observation of the flatworms' migration from warm waters to cold water that gave the first clues to what I am talking about.

    In warm water, food is plentiful but so are micro-predators so the flatworms reproduce through sex. In cold water the micro-organisms are scarce so it's safe to clone themselves, and because that uses less energy, they need less food, which is scarce in cold water.

  • Randy

    Addendum: I said, "starts female then mutates to male if the hormones are right..." that is a gross oversimplification of the process, I realize. But the whole story would take another page of text, so...

  • Hulk

    Yup we guys all started with XX chromosome. We have nipples that do not serve any function cos we switched to XY during developmental stage

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @go2mark -

    1 - evolution has nothing to do with how life started... To "evolve you have to already have a starting point.

    2 - The "origin of species" describes a process that can take one life form and show how it can become a new species. There is no "reason" why evolution took the course it did. We just describe the process used to get to the current state of nature.

    We know for a fact that at some point there were no such things as male and female. Then a species mutated, the mutated species survived, thrived, and mutated further. Most of the mutations died off but the few that survived continue to survive today.

    Think of it as the evolution of a modern home. They started off as thatch, moved to mud, clay, brick. Some began to have more rooms. Some had windows. Some started having fire places and dutch ovens. Then some started showing up with kitchens. Some started having pluming. Some stated having outhouses nearby, then inside. Some started off with simple air condition. Now they have complex central air units. Same with electric power. High efficiency windows.

    So to ask why there are male and female is like asking a architect why houses have car garages. Houses dont have to have garages and in fact alot of houses done have garages but the ones that do seem to survive longer. At least in this age.

    In 100 years houses might evolve away from car garages.

  • John Seals

    Does anybody know how to contact Richard Dawkins? I would love to write him and let him know what a profound effect he has had on my life. I live in the Bible belt and do not feel free to be myself at all. I am an athiest that believes evolution is absolutedly and with out a doubt the origin of all life as we know it. This makes me the devil incarnate to the people I live around. Watching Richard through out the years has helped me stand up for what i believe, when I have to. i still try to stay in the shadows as much as possible, you would have to understand how seriouse these people can be around here- one could end up hurt or at least black listed from being able to get work or rent a place to stay. I have had threats that I would be shot or my house burnt down when I tried to push evolution as the only theory to be taught in our local schools. I love a lot about where I live and do not want to move but I may have to eventually. I wish Richard would come here and try to explain evolution to the local schools science classes, he is so good at laying it out in a way that is almost irrefutable.
    P.s. sorry about the spelling.

  • Hardy

    Man, you guys have endurance :-D

  • Hulk

    @John Seals

    Hi john i doubt prof dawkins will be interested in debating creationists. He personally dont wana give them status for debating a real scientist.

    Anyway keep an open mind and look at evidence,dont be an extremist on either sides(although creationists usually are). Man you must have a hard time living where you are,having to lay low from the retarded extremists.

    Heres a suggestion,write a statement that if you ever get hurt by creationists,provide the threats you received and as much evidence as you can.If anything happen to u in the hands of creationist the world must be made known.

    Its serious shit,though i doubt they would so stupid to slap themselves in the face but you never noe.I sincerely hope u can get away from tat community.

  • Charles B.

    John: I'm sorry that you feel persecuted as such in the "Bible Belt" but you are trying to push Evolution to other peole's kids in school. We on the other hand, unless we homeschool want the choice at least to opt out of the Evolution delusion.

    You can probably write Dawkins by writing the book publisher or write where he is teaching at full time. I'm sure he would get your letter and may even answer you.

  • Epicurus

    @charlesB do you also want them to have the choice to not learn germ theory or gravity?

    you dont get to pick and choose what is true and what isnt. that is left to objective empirical evidence.

    no one is PUSHING evolution on anyone anymore than they are PUSHING algebra on them.

    once again you make one of the most brain hurting comments i have the displeasure of seeing throughout my day.

  • bo

    I feel like an innocent bystander in your guys debates. Sometimes I feel like all of you have the skill set to actually take the opposite view point and debate it real well! lol.

    Someone entertain this question. If you take 100 people and force feed them painkillers for a few yrs and then take their children and force feed them pain killers for a few yrs for 10 generations, what would happen to the liver? Would the human liver in the 10th generation be the same as the 1st generation of test group? If not, is that a basic understanding of evolution?

  • Charles B.

    Mr. Overy: No! Of course I'm not opposed to learning about "germs" and "gravity" in school. Algebra is not religious in nature, but Evolution is, as its purpose by most of those who espouse it, is to devoid the world of God and to instill that same disbelief in God in children at an early age. Been there! Done that! I remember. It was crammed down my throat as "religiously" as anything I learned in Sunday School for years. I was nearly adult by the time I figured out that it's only a theory and not a scientific fact.

  • Charles B.

    Bo: Sorry Bo! I at least for one don't mean to get you caught or otherwise in the crossfire of out debates. Most of the time it's done in good taste, but sometimes one or the other of us gets a little personal and/or upset.

    Well, that's an interesting question about the liver damage (or adaptation) that could happen in a test group being force-fed painkillers for 10 generations.

    First, the livers could possibly be different in some people IF the force-feeding killed some people and the ones that lived where the strongest-livered ones. But, perhaps there would be no difference at all if there were no adaptations to the liver's genetics passed on from the "survivors". That's assuming fatalities would occur.

    Also, I watched a documentary about epi-genetics where the genetics of a parent can be changed (switched on/off) by things such as famine at the time the reproductive elements are being formed. This would be in the womb for females, and at puberty for males. This epi-genetic transformation or change was proved to be passed on to future generation and perhaps in perpetuity (forever). I got the impression from the documentary (found on this website) that it wasn't a good transformation, but actually harmed the genetic structure.

    Either way, I'm not sure I'd call any of these things "evolutionary" in nature.

    The way I understand DNA and genetics is that there is a lot of God-created leeway in how it manifests. The program might have been there a long time and not "switched" on for one possible outcome or another for a person's health, but adaptations and adjustments have limits. Changes are within a type and a kind. In other words, a human's liver would never become a bird's liver no matter how many test subjects you used and no matter how many years or generations you tested.

    It will be interesting to see if Epic or Mr. Overy tries to tackle this interesting question.


  • Charles B.

    John Seals: Ironically, John, I grew up in the least churched state in the United States, in the least churched county and near the least churched city of that county! If ever there was a "faithless Atheist-filled armpit" in America, the Pacific Northwest of the U.S.A. is it! I would have liked to have traded you places very much and grown up in the Bible Belt. Unlucky us, eah? Perhaps we were both raised out of place, so-to-speak. ;-) LOL

    Peace to you.

    Charles B.

  • Joe_nyc

    Hardy, it's not endurance. It's pure unadulterated ignorance. All one has to do is research by reading some books even a 6th grader can comprehend. With the amount of time he had spent at TDF ranting and preaching he could have read many books. It's obvious he intentionally chose not to learn.

  • Hulk

    A friends brother age 13 talked to me after his parents brought him to church last sunday for the first time and asked me why his parents woke him up early in the morning to listen to fairy tales. I LOLED for at least 7seconds and teared for the next 30 seconds.

  • Hardy

    @Joe_nyc: No, I meant all the 'godless atheists' that still have the endurance to explain evolution to creationists :-D

  • bo

    @charles b

    I posed that question because sometimes I use nyquil for sleep aid and I find that the more I use the more I need hahaha. Havent used it in awhile but that life situation led me to be curious as to why I would need more of it and what would happen to the liver if my family line abused it for hundreds of generations. I understand my body gets immune to it but why!!! Is that adaption? Maybe beginning stages of evolution? Did God give us that feature to protect us?

  • bo

    @charles b

    I guess that is somewhat a generic question but what if we experience the same thing as giraffes (if we were to assume theory is correct) and short people couldnt reach for food so tall people would survive and have bigger legs from all the jumping. Then natural events would push food higher and higher so people would be taller and taller until bone structure couldnt support height so it was the best climbers that survived. Would we have a species of tall and long limber arms n legs. '

    I guess the Bible would have a problem with the arms turning into wings lol. Which brings us to this form to debate it in circles. I love it.

  • SexMoneyMonkey

    @Charles B

    Evolution isn't religious in nature. It is scientific in nature. The fact that it basically obliterates your laughable creation story is just an added bonus. Why don't you guys just decide the creation story was metaphorical like you always do when your bible is shown to be false.

    I almost want to get into psychology so I can prove that religious beliefs stem from mental disorders and just get rid of this plague that forces people to be ignorant.

  • Hardy

    'Then natural events would push food higher [...]'

    Why? Plants benefit from their fruit being eaten by as many animals as possible.

    The only reason why they aren't 1cm from the ground is their need for photosynthesis to produce said fruits.

    It's a basic competition between two traits (more height - more photosynthesis, less height - more spread)that both have their advantages, but cannot be present at the same time. The 'perfect mix' is established through natural selection.

    Extremely logical process, if you think about it.

  • bo


    Thank you, it was over simplified example for benefit of discussion.


    I have 1 percent left in me open for a creator. Are you 100 percent atheist? I know what the Greatest show on earth is but I like to listen to theist if they are willing to say a few words with out quoting the bible.

  • SexMoneyMonkey

    I've probably got more than 1, really. Just none for the christian god who seems to be prevalent right now

  • Randy

    @sexmoneymonkey, (gotta love that handle!)

    Yes, indeed. Zero tolerance for the desert god of fire and blood. Which would rule out all three religions of "The Book" as they're called, Judeo-Islamo-christianity.

    I remember in high school, I was a born-again a**hole for about two years. I was a horribly insecure guy who thought he would never be able to get laid, so, like many of the kids on the christian internets these days, I turned to The Lord for solace. 'Course, once I actually HAD sex, jesus was summarily and immediately thrown out the first window I came across.

    I was preaching, like a**hole I was, to this really cool girl that I liked, but never thought I would ever have a chance with. She was awesome, a real hippie chick, very smart, but high all the time! I was worried for her eternal soul, (much later I would get high myself and that idea quickly followed jesus through afore mentioned window...).

    In the middle of my claptrap about Satan, she interjected, "What if your god is actually Satan and he convinced you that, the guy you think of as Satan, is actually god? Wouldn't that be the kind of trick he would play?"

    I actually paused for a second and all the horror of the bible came to mind. The god-sanctioned slavery, the explicit details on how to dissect the bodies of the enemies of Israel, throwing their body parts and internal organs on the sacrificial fire, the god-sanctioned rape and torture of women, and on and on...

    At the time, I nervously laughed that idea off and said it was ridiculous. But over the years the incident comes up in my mind over and over again, especially when I am talking to a bible-thumper.

    Anyways, the bottom line is, I don't know and really can't know if there is some creator out there, but the Judeo-Islamo-christian god of death is right out, in my mind, as the twisted, fantasy of a bunch of crazy desert people.

  • Ruth

    Hi, randy. Can you give me where they burned people in the bible? Is that at war? I looked and I can't find it eather. What part is it? I can dinf animals not people burned.

  • Epicurean_Logic

    @ Ruth, not sure about burning people But Jahweh condoned and even praised human sacrifice on at least two occasions. references to follw shortly, i will have to dig up my bible.

  • Randy

    Hi Ruth! Well, I will not have a bible in my home, and it has been many years since I've read one. And I do sometimes get passages confused with the Q'ran, the Talmid (sp?), and all of the apocryphal gospels that I have read, (Gospel of Thomas, Mary Magdeline, Book of Enoch, etc.), but I'm pretty sure it was in Leviticus.

    Leviticus has the 633? (is that right, I know it ends with a 3...) commandments of god, (it wasn't ten, like christians like to think, I guess Leviticus is one of the more boring books so they probly gloss right over it... OH, except the stuff about them homosexuals!). I'm pretty sure it was there where he commands Israel to seperate the enemy men from the women and children, making the women and children slaves, then hacking the men up and throwing their bits on the fire.

    Good family values stuff!

  • Ruth

    ok. thank you. I will look.

  • Flying Spaghetti Monster

    @ Charlie Brown

    Why is it universal that as intelligence increases, religiosity decreases?

    Remember not to eat from the tree of knoledge.

  • Charles B.

    Hulk: I would have cried for more than 30 seconds (but I'm sure our tears would have been for opposite reasons). I wish the boy had talked to me instead of you. What did you advise the boy if I may ask?

  • Charles B.

    Randy: I'll check about the slavery thing in the Old Testament, but I do think you're mixing a bit. I'm pretty Biblically knowledgeable and human sacrifice of babies was forbidden (to Molech, a Pagan deity) and I can't recall burning slain enemies on the alter at all.
    I think, however, that you're not interested in the particulars, but in the big picture. Is God just? Is He truly God, or a deceiver, like your hippie girlfriend suggested. Is he really a God of "fire and blood"? Let me think about that for a while if you'd like an answer to that question. Just let me know specifically.

  • Achems Razor

    Human sacrifices.



    ...Judges...11:29-40 NTL

    ...Joshua...7:15 NTL

    ...Wisdom...14:21-23 RSV

    ...Ezekiel 21:23-37 NAB

    ...Deuteronomy...13:13-19 NLT

  • Faith

    Charles B,
    If God is Almighty, how come He has to send His son to be crucified since everything is possible to Him? If He created all thing by his word, why can’t He save by his word also since His word is powerful? Sacrifice is part of the occult and ritual made for gods. Why do you need to drink someone’s blood to be saved and to eat his flesh also? there is no such a thing like a Spiritual blood and flesh; blood is blood and flesh is flesh. Now, can you eat and drink someone’s flesh and blood? And don’t forget that Wine is Wine and can never test like blood.
    Can you define the word"SIN"?
    Everything God created was good, so where evil came from? God will never reveal himself, even Jesus, because if they would, they would save these innocent children who were and are being molested since He sees everything(Omnipotent and Omnipresent). He’s never there when one needs Him, since He wasn’t there when Adam and Eve got tempted, when Abel got killed.

  • Charles B.

    Razor: It's midnight in Korea. Let me read your passages and get back to you.


    Faith: Your questions are good ones and to hard for a sleepy mind to tackle tonight. Let me sleep on it.

    By the way, I had a personal e-mail from BBC last week. He said he would pop in from time to time, but was pulling back for time reasons. I'm sure that's why he didn't get around to answering your post to him yet. He's probably not read it yet.


  • Randy

    @charles b. you wrote:

    "I’m pretty Biblically knowledgeable and human sacrifice of babies was forbidden (to Molech, a Pagan deity)..."

    I never mentioned sacrificing babies. God told them to keep the women and children as slaves. The men had to be killed, though.

    For that and the horrible treatment of women alone, letting all of his other horrors go, this god of yours must be abolished. Hideous creature.

    There was a French lawyer in the 19th century who has been called by some, "the grandfather of civil rights", and his specialty was defending people convicted of "blaspheming against god and the bible" which could have heavy penalties in Paris even then. I forget his name, and I don't feel like digging up the book, but he said in open court, and I wholeheartedly agree, "If this god does exist, then he must be abolished!" (some translate that from the French as "Destroyed", although I don't know how, they are fairly distinct words in French, but I never saw his original French words so... anyways).

    To your other post, which made my skin crawl actually, nobody has ever had the balls to preach to me in a long, long time. Let me just say, I was being a bit flip when I sited getting laid as the only reason for chucking your bi-polar, evil messiah out the window. By this time I was already doing research into the history of christianity, NOT the books I was told to read by my pastor, but books written by real, unbiased, scholars on the subject. Especially as it related to Roman history, which is one of my favorite subjects.

    Needless to say, I was discomfitted by the gulf of knowledge between what I was being told by the christ-y folks around me, with their frozen smiles and vacant eyes and secret drug addictions and twisted sexual predalictions, and what I was reading by respected authorities in the field.

    Being a pretty smart kid, a.k.a. "nerd", it didn't take me long to realize that this was the height of ignorance, and I felt dirty having even considered it as a life choice. I still do. I look back on that year and seven months of my life with more shame than when I was molested as a child!

    Oh, and the man that did it to me was just FULL of god's love and told me every chance he got, with real tears in his drunken eyes. Yeah. He made sure I went to church every sunday, but cautioned that he'd have to "send me to jesus" if I told anybody! Great guy. I hear he was a pastor himself before he died! What happens in the catholic church, happens in the protestant churches too, folks. Believe me. This guy had never had any charges put against him even though many kids came forward with stories similar to mine. *shrug* I'm over it, but I caution everyone else. The christian cult, in all of its incarnations, is a great place for psychopaths and other twisted human monsters to hide. I shudder to think I actually went back even after... well... enough of that...

    So, in conclusion, understand, Charles, that I believe your religion is evil. I believe that all christians have something fundamentally wrong with them. That if they believe the horror novel you call the bible to be the "Word of God", then they have to have a real mental disorder, and I wouldn't trust any christian as far as I could throw the Vatican and the Crystal Cathedral TOGETHER! If I saw you face to face I would want to have my hand on some type of weapon in case you suddenly snapped and decided I was FULL OF DEMONS!

    Nothing personal. I'm sure you believe you are a nice guy. But there is a seed of insanity growing, is all's I'm saying...

  • go2mark

    If it makes you feel any better i was molested by a university physics professor who was also
    my best friends father. I had zero religion growing up and then when i started to ask the really deep questions i found that a creator makes much more sense. Soon you will start to see that the bible has proved itself to be the word of God as the things it predicted, have and continue to, come true. We are seeing it now both in biology and in particle physics. so many things are so far beyond our understanding yet our pride continues to devise new ways to explain and describe the mysteries of life. the demons are in the church and we believers know this because that is where satan is does the most damage. there is a spiritual war going on that you do not understand.

  • Randy


    Why on Earth would it make me feel any better that you have been molested?!?

    I know about your fantasy "spiritual war", I attended seminars-- took notes. It's a fun fantasy story but I prefer Tolkien.

    IF you are right, and there is a war between Satan and your god, you can bet your life I'd be on Satan's side!

    And when I lost, I would happily go to hell with both of my middle fingers shoved into your evil-overlord's face!

    Thank you...

  • Faith

    You said that the bible is the word of God? Are you serious?
    Your own Jesus said,"No one have seen my father or heard him at anytime...". Now you claim the bible is the word of God with full of incomplete stories and facts. Churches are just building built by men.Let me ask you something: Have you ever seen a demon or satan? Ask the jews about prophecies coming true, then they'll ask you,"where is the Messiah they have been waiting for?"

  • go2mark

    your pride has blinded you from the truth just as the bible said it would. you talk about God and satan as if they were 2 guys in some argument on some internet discussion group. this is all part of the grand deception that will come upon the whole world. i know you say you have heard it all before but you are deceived because you think you can figure it all out with math and science. well from what we know now it all seems to be a grand illusion.
    ( dark matter/energy, junk DNA, space expanding faster than the speed of light. ) these are the ideas we have come up with to explain the unexplainable. soon the beast (world govt) will take over the world and the end time will be very clear. soon govt control of banking, health care and the media will be very obvious and we will all be slaves to it.

  • Randy


    *sigh* Seriously, that was great... I haven't laughed like that in a long time...

    Tell me about the UFO aliens that will take you to god's planet to live forever and travel through time in Holy Starships of Christ's Love!

    Every christian that says "we" don't understand scientific principles are really saying "they" don't understand them. Cuz, folks, WE understand them just fine. You need to get your head out of the horror novel and read some actual books.

  • go2mark

    ah yes books. written by men. what a grand understanding we have now. its all so clear . i am so glad that these books have provided you all the answers. and we see all around us how much better things have gotten in the last 100 years because technology has made everything so wonderful. well if you like it now, just wait, its gonna get so much better. all the answers will
    become crystal clear and your govt will be there to give you everything you ever dreamed of.

  • go2mark

    well you really have nothing worry about then do you because you will just return to dust. if the bible stories were so untrue than why are we here thousands of years later still discussing it. it should have died off long ago. you have it easy because you only need to defend what can be touched while i must defend something that is inherently unprovable. if i did see a demon or knew someone who did would it really matter to you ? you surely would have a good explanation for it. and which jews did you have in mind for me to ask ?.not all of them believe the same thing. i do not think that the things that are written by man today are any more useful or significant in respect to the time they were written in.

  • Charles B.

    To Faith:

    You asked:

    Charles B,

    1. "If God is Almighty, how come He has to send His son to be crucified since everything is possible to Him? If He created all thing by his word, why can’t He save by his word also since His word is powerful? "

    Faith, God works by set rules as well as we. It's just the way things are. Christ's actions were a labor of love; God reaching out to us to redeem us again and not the other way around. The way I understand it is that the penalty for "sin" goes back to the Garden of Eden when God said that if Adam and Eve disobeyed the one simple command, then on that day, they would surely "die" (spiritually speaking), and then ultimately physically as well. The penalty for "sin" was death, perhaps so those that sinned would take it more seriously. Only "death" could pay for the sin. That is why Jesus died on the Cross as payment for our sins. Now all we need to do is ask for the payment-in-full to be applied to our lives personally as well.

    2. "Sacrifice is part of the occult and ritual made for gods. Why do you need to drink someone’s blood to be saved and to eat his flesh also? there is no such a thing like a Spiritual blood and flesh; blood is blood and flesh is flesh. Now, can you eat and drink someone’s flesh and blood? And don’t forget that Wine is Wine and can never test like blood."

    Jesus Himself first used juice and bread as the symbols of his sacrifice for our sins. No actual blood or flesh were ever used in the Christian church and it it was, it wasn't based on Biblical presidents. The payment was TO God, BY Jesus ON the cross. The remembrance of that act is symbolic only. But, if you are Catholic, then you believe in a spiritual transubstantiation, but I don't hold to that. Symbolic is good enough for me.

    3. "Can you define the word”SIN”?

    Sin is the disobedience of God. It really is that simple. In Eden, there was only one way to "sin" but now there are many and only one Way to be freed from the guilt of sin; faith in Christ.

    4. "Everything God created was good, so where evil came from?"

    God gave all his created beings the choice to serve him or not. Rebellion and/or self pride is the original sin of the universe and started with Lucifer who became Satan. Disobedience of the only commandment in the Garden of Eden is how sin came to our present world. Death and destruction of all types can all be traced back to sin in one way or another. Even the earth, which was under Adam's care was cursed because of his actions. Our sin has far-reaching consequences and not just to our own lives.

    5. "God will never reveal himself, even Jesus, because if they would, they would save these innocent children who were and are being molested since He sees everything (Omnipotent and Omnipresent). He’s never there when one needs Him, since He wasn’t there when Adam and Eve got tempted, when Abel got killed."

    This is probably the hardest part for us to understand, me included. I don't know why there is not more supernatural intervention for those who are being killed and/or hurt in this world. The Bible did say that we (Christians) would be considered as "sheep for the slaughter" and those that killed us would think that they are doing God a service. All of the Disciples except John were martyred. God said that Abel's blood called out to him from the ground. He knew what was happening. But, ya know what? Abel has been "comforted" for thousands of years now while "Cain" has been in unending torment. Until the time when all things are accomplished, then sin and the consequences of sin will have some leeway in our lives. I too was molested as a kid. It happens. It's made me a much more sympathetic soul towards others, I think.

    6. No man has seen God, as Jesus said so.

    When Jesus said that no one had seen or heard from God, he was meaning in an unveiled state. Moses heard God's voice and saw his back. Jesus was quite aware of that story. You have to "rightfully divide the world of truth" and have to understand what was meant was no one has seen God completely as He is. This will come in the future when all tears are wiped away in Heaven, including I'm sure some from Christ. That's still a future happening.

    Peace to You.

    If I missed something you thought important let me know.

    Charles B.

  • Charles B.

    Achems Razor 04/30/2010 at 15:11

    Human sacrifices.

    …Genesis…22:1-18 Yes, this is the classic tale of Abraham's test of faith by God. This is an enigma to many. My professor in college pushed it aside by saying that Abraham misunderstood God's command to sacrifice Isaac, but that doesn't do justice to the World of God. You can't just pick and choose and say, "He misunderstood God's command." Rather, I believe that this passage was for the purpose of making sure Abraham held nothing above God as Abraham was to be the patriarch of the whole faith. Had Abraham loved money more than Isaac, God would have asked him to surrender that. Isaac is a person; the only way to test giving a person up (your beloved son) is to ask for their life. God was not wanting "sacrifice" here Mr. Razor. He wanted obedience and full commitment. The fact that he stopped Abraham from performing the act shows that it was not His desire at all. It's a one-time event and I'm quite sure no other time has God ask something in quite this same way. In modern times, I'm not sure how He would ask us to give up that which is most important to us should it eclipse our love for him, but it certainly wouldn't be this way again.

    …Leviticus…27:28-29 Hum. This was the only passage I couldn't understand by myself. I had a question mark by it in fact in my Bible, but my commentary says: "This passage does not teach human sacrifice, as some claim; such sacrifices were forbidden (Ex 13:13; 34:20; Num. 18:15). Parents were not to sacrifice their children (Dt. 12:30-31; Palms 106:37-38; Jer. 7:31; Ezek. 16:20-21). The word "cherem (devoted things) as applied to man here (v. 28-29) could refer to those devoted or doomed to death, as in I Sam. 15:21; I Kings 20:42. The root word "Charam" is used many times of destruction (Ex 22:30; Num. 21:2-3; Dt. 2:34; 7:2).

    "That the death sentence was not be altered is clear from v 29, which some versions render, "Among people no one who is under human doom can be brought off; he must certainly be executed." From the death sentence there was to be no redemption or commutation. The righteousness of this law is not involved in the rash vow and sin of Jephthah (Judges 11:30) and Saul (I Sam. 14:24). A cherem offered in sacrifice was always an innocent animal chosen, approved and without blemish."

    Mr. B.'s Summary: Mr. Razor, I believe that this passage was indeed talking about criminals condemned to death couldn't be bought off with money as with other things in the passage. As this was written about 3,500 years ago, we have to use our best discernment and wisdom to determine the exact meaning of the passage. Human sacrifice is specifically condemned many times in other Scriptures that are not ambiguous like this one is.

    …Judges…11:29-40 NTL The rash vow of Jephthah was probably abhorrent in God's eyes as much as it was to us. Jephthah shouldn't have made it, let alone should he have carried it out. The way I understand it is that he was given victory by God despite his rash vow and not because of it. It was a sin. In fact, it is proof that his was a very unusual happening as the girl was lamented by her people after that on a yearly basis.

    …Joshua…7:15 NTL This was execution for transgression, not a sacrifice.

    …Wisdom…14:21-23 RSV I don't know what the book of "Wisdom" is. It's not Psalms, Proverbs, (I looked) nor is it Song of Solomon or Ecclesiastes as the last two don't even have 14 chapters.

    …Ezekiel 21:23-37 NAB This is a judgment passage for sure, but no sacrifice of anything, let alone people is mentioned.

    …Deuteronomy…13:13-19 NLT+ This is a judgment passage for Idolatry. No sacrifice is mentioned except "sacrifice to other gods" which is the reason for the destruction of that particular wicked city entirely.


    In conclusion, my own novel thought is that human sacrifice, if it was a practice or a requirement of God at that time, would have specific instructions along with the specific instructions of all the other sacrifices. All the others of animals and grain, etc. are very specific. People of this time would know that human sacrifice was not of God, and therefore would only occasionally need to be reminded of this in small passages here and there (as we see). It's only now 3,500 years later that the issue may be posed as a possibility by those that either don't know the Scriptures well, or do not hold a faith in God, and are "proof texting" to try and bring condemnation on a righteous a holy God.

    I also prayed about it specifically, and asked, "Lord, did you ever require human sacrifice?" And I got a very solid feeling of "No. Never." This answer, along with a thorough study of the passages you provided and others not mentioned, I conclude that human sacrifice was never part of the commands of God at any time.


    Charles B.

  • Achems Razor

    @ Randy:

    Good post about Mark in the Bible, Probably moderated because of the word about something that comes out from where the sun does not shine!

    @ Charles B:

    Also moderated because of that bad word starting with I****

    We should all figure out a code to bypass all these bad?? words.
    As I also hate to be in moderation heaven!

    No slight to you at all "Vlatko" it is not your fault.

  • Achems Razor

    Correction: I meant @ Epicurus! on the first post.

  • Randy

    Achems wrote:

    "Correction: I meant @ Epicurus! on the first post."

    As it was a fairly ingenius post, it was an easy mistake to make!

    HA! Get it? I was trying to compare my addled brain with Epicurus' laser-sharp, enormity of mind!

    Yeah... I'm pathetic...

  • Achems Razor

    @ Randy:

    Well, you are pretty smart. And no, don't want 2-bits (LOL)

  • Joh Seals

    Charles B.,

    If you would have rather grown up in a place with no possible future or even the chance for a "real education" just so you could be surrounded by other small minded people, well I guess that says a lot about you.

    Hulk, adn Eapicurus,
    Thanks for the advice and Dawkins email. As far as leaving this area, well my dad and mother live here and are old and sick. I refuse not to be here for them- they are 2 of the only sane people around. When I was a small child they abandoned the whole religion thing so it's just the others in the neighborhood that I have to watch. I have pretty much figured out that if I just stay on my hill top and don't rock the red neck boat, Ill be o.k.
    As soon as I am no longer needed here I plan on moving out west, probably California- and persueing a degree in physics. This wil be a real challenge for me as I am thirty seven and I have only made it to 1st year physics and Calculus in my previouse college career but string theory is just too interesting to pass up and i always wanted to be a scientist- I became a IT person insted (boring)Anyway thanks again it's nice to know thier are sane people out thier and not only that but they love science as well-KUdos

  • Randy

    @John Seals

    Very inspiring story! Good for you, and good luck!

    What are you are setting out to do takes a lot of courage... I applaud you, sir.

  • Achems Razor

    @ Charles B:

    Thank you for your time and effort in replying to me.

    It must be nice to have God speaking to you in the first person as per human sacrifices. When you say Lord, I imagine you are referring to God itself, or is that his son?

    Did he reply in an actual voice or was it done telepathically?
    I am honestly curious.

  • Randy


    No, Chuck B. is god's LAWYER, see. Whenever there is bad stuff in the bible, he gives us the REAL meaning... what god REALLY meant by the killing and the terror.

    It's so easy to understand, but we silly egg-heads can't get the subtlety of god's infinite wisdom, see. Say, for example, god eats a child alive, right? It's just a symbol of how much he LOVES us... Chucky B. knows that, because he, unlike us, knows the mind of god.

    Do you get it, now, you intellectual, educated, elitist...?

  • Epicurean_Logic

    Yahweh encourages human sacrifise:

    Judges chapter 11 contains a story in which a Judge named Jephthah makes a vow to God to sacrifice the first thing that comes out of the door of his house in exchange for God's help with a military battle against the Ammonites. Much to his dismay, his only daughter greeted him upon his triumphant return. Judges 11:39 states that Jephthah kept his vow.

    Yahweh endorses burnt human sacrifice:
    2 kings 3:1-27 relates the following story. For the crime of not paying annual tribute of 100000 lambs and 100000 rams with the wool (2 kings 3:4) a battle commences between Judah, Israel (seperate, often opposed states at the time) and Moab. Whilst the followers of Jahweh (or was it El. I always get those two confused!)are about to defeat Moab,3:27 states that,
    "Then he took his (the king of Moab) eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering on the wall.AND THERE WAS GREAT INDIGNATION AGAINST IS-RA-EL (from who?)and they departed from him (Moab), and returned to their own land."

  • Achems Razor

    @ Randy:

    Lawyer, hmmm, there must be some type of bar exam. as yet unknown to man in order for him to be Gods "adjuntant" as in the "army" of fighting evil forces. but a twist, it seems that these forces must be evil. The way that it is portrayed.

    I do want to hear in Charles own words of how God spoke to him though.
    Was it a voice, or some type of an epiphany. A revelation maybe?
    Or is this a natural ongoing occurrence with him.

  • Randy

    The "bar exam", you elitist, fancy girl having, socialist, fancy Harvard, East coast liberal, is baptisim in the holy spirit! Mr. Man!

    See, when you accept the "Lord" as your personal savior, after much study and prayer, you too could be baptised in the Spirit, but you are too concerned with your oil company killing, tree-hugging, open-all-the borders, left wing, socialism-- to understand that, see.

    With your fancy cars and fancy coffee houses, and such...

    Seriously, though, the one unforgivable sin in the fundie church is turning away from the holy spirit, or rejecting your baptism in the spirit. I, apparently, according to the drunken pastor that sponsored me, WAS baptised in the spirit, and I subsequently, roundly rejected it...

    So, I am damned, no matter what. So, sorry Chaz B., there is no hope for my soul. Give up on me, my brother. Jesus hates my skinny, white, ass!

  • Randy

    You know, I've been reading over all of Epicurus' posts and, although he is very snarky, good god, he(she? don't want to genderize, but the posts seem male and the screen name is male, so...), is just brilliant.

    I'm sorry. I hate to be so obsequious (sp?) but I just gotta say, I would give a lot to sit and listen to him talk for like, six hours. As I would Richard Dawkins...

    I've told him this before on this site, but, I gotta say... just amazing...

    I'm kinda gay for him... so I hope Epicurus is a woman, actually... LOL!

  • Epicurus

    lol @ Randy, thanks a lot man. I would love to talk with many people on this site. there are places that can be done (stickam is one).

    But Randy, your posts are brilliant, as are Young's, Hate Machines, and Achems has some hits amongst the stuff that i would say is too out there for me.

    but just to be clear Epicurean_logic is not me, but im sure we would get along just great and I would say he probably knows his theology better than me.

    oh and i am a male and taken lol sorry but we can keep it a no-homo-bromance.

  • Epicurus

    oh and im terribly sorry, SexMonkey and Charlesovery are very very bright also.

    i knew if i started naming names i would miss people and feel like an @$$

  • Achems Razor

    Well, Epi, is male, I hope I did not pop your balloon!

    But you know, to each his own. (LOL)

  • Randy

    Not that there's anything WRONG with that!

  • Achems Razor

    No, nothing wrong with that! I did not mean that there was.

  • Randy


    You know I was doing a "Seinfield" reference, right?

  • Randy

    Correction: Jerry "Sienfeld" (sp?) good lord, my kingdom for a spell check...

    At any rate, yes, Epicurus, I did know that "Epicurean_Logic" and you were not the same guy. I have studied the new science, (MAYBE, science, I ain't convinced yet...), of forensic literature. A fun little hobby, which claims to be able to tell from cadence and word patterns who the authorship of any anonymous writing can be atrributed to. The FBI is using it for threat letters. I have some criminal law background...

  • Hulk

    @John Seals

    Dont give up john,as long as you have the means to you should pursue physics. Im actually in love with physics too but i found tat out too late now im actually doing psychology.I continue to keep up with news but i hope to pursue physics after i retire.Learning never stops. Cheers

    So guys, i see we are still entertaining the delusional men.Lets just let them be, we tried. It takes more than logic,reason and evidence to even operate at their level of understanding.You need to at least choose 1 god(whichever[i prefer indian elephant god]) and believe in it in order to even make them listen.

  • Achems Razor

    @ Randy

    Are you referring to Seinfeldology, Jerry Sienfeld? my spelling checker says (Seinfeld) is the right spelling.

    But I think am getting your rift anyway. Am smart don't forget (LOL)

  • Randy

    Achems wrote:

    "Are you referring to Seinfeldology, Jerry Sienfeld? my spelling checker says (Seinfeld) is the right spelling.

    But I think am getting your rift anyway. Am smart don’t forget (LOL)"

    Yes! You got it! You am smart! LOL!

    Remember the Homer Simpson dance, "I am so smart, S-M-R-T!"

    (And his diploma starts burning, catching the house afire, HAHAHA!)

  • Hulk

    oh gosh, i just realise CharlesB is in korea. Another sick place for extreme christians where children have been brainwash and force to Jesus or they will all go to hell.Ive seen at least a dozen videos and articles on the kids. You guys can actually find some on youtube


    from the opening of #2 i prejudged it based upon my dislike for Dawkins and his WORSHIP of the Diety of human science , even thought the data trail available from our cousin apes is limited and STRESSED because of the presence of us human apes , but still luckly there is evidence trails of altruism and complex peaceful co-operation for total species surivial maybe not as a result of Personal / policitcal or moral choice from thinking , but expresions of surivial from instinct in the library of sucessful DNA sruvivial.

    altruism ..being nice within DNA forms of species shows up in many animals with brains less than ours , amybe even Bees or ant levels... what about thier brains ?

    but Capitilsim Jungle , does that act in harmony with the long term activity of success of the speicies actually will end mostly in the destruction of the speices of capitalism animal .... so is the Gorilla who has millions of years of success... capatialism ? the simple mindeed view of or superfical view of surival of the fittest ?
    Good and Evil as if ... dieing is some how EVIL ? it will and does happen to evrything even theis planet , even this Galaxy itself will DIE ..... this FEAR is instincutal in the drive for the speices to live on true , but nothing like our human FEAR or dsiconnection is any where else in nature . Here i beleive the expression of the 1$ of 3% natural birth defects rate , the 1 % being 1 of the 1000's of differeent forms of defects or mutations.

    of course EVE selection drives the whole thing ( well atleast in nature and humanity for the last 14million 9hundered and 95 thousnad years subtract the last confused 5 k years , where unbalence has been present in confused expressions of the efects of folloeing the leadership of a pyshcopathic God?king like the slaves they bred .... Women have to choose for they have the STAIC EGG we males are the ADAPTIVE LIBRARY of SUCCESS if we live thru the plague or we surive the use of the toxin Alocohol ..these traits follw our adpative contribution she supplys the egg and the even imporatnt MICONDRIA ! the geninsis of good probiotic the connectiononce more the whole web of life .

    now KIN selective is supportive of the Gorilla cousinhood of humanity thatn withthe Chimp who has a 14 % infantictide rate with in some fairy narrow cousinship family ties . Where infanticide is 0 or very tiny dependingont he low or hign land groups studied and we have very little in the way of populations to real study and our data is only decades in the compling. when we really need centurys atleast . this is all the mating behanvior page of instinctualism .

    obsevations we make now of taint's populations be it humanor chimp does not take into account the factors of the chimp and the human realizing they are no lnger FREE in the jungle of life but aspects of emotions felt about thier understanding or lack of understanding but , the feeling of thier slave hood or confinement . and a BROTHERHOOD OF THAT . even expressed in chimps ( other animsls are not STupid or less than us , can we if takenin terms of relative size give a good directions to our fellow human as a bee can give to the fellow members of its community in thier flower dances .... can you descirbe the location of a shopping mall 5 THOUSAND MILES AWAY ? lackin the tool of google earth ? who is the stupid one now ? )

    Dawkins again puts forth to much info in to short a period and with such grace and Piety as to become the voice of the priest of the diety science .

  • Achems Razor

    @ Randy

    Yes I do remember the Homer Simpson dance, that is coming up from the recess of my mind, like a ghostly image. I know that I saw it, but do not know when or where. He was waving it around right, and it caught on fire.

  • Achems Razor

    Good Grief!! Now I have a headache, @ Philip Van Der Mude!

  • Randy


    Good lord! I mean, I am drunk right now, but you really need to put down the pipe!

    Um... Your ranbling rant is difficult to decipher, but I am going to give it a shot...

    You seem to be disputing the Darwinian concept of "Survival of the Fittest"...? Well, I do, too, and many modern day scientists have modified their various points of view to include the idea of "survival of the most co-operative".

    Darwin lived in a very "Industrial Revolution" world, and he was a product of that environment. His ideas were colored by the "big fish eats the little fish, and the bigger fish eats the big fish, etc..."

    But, over the many years, over a hundred, really, naturalists have discovered that many species get by and prosper on symbiotic co-operation.

    I will use an example: there is a species of fish called a Nurse-fish? (anyone can correct me that knows what I am talking about, my poor brain is so Irish and drink-addled...) and it swims around the big sharks mouths, and the sharks don't mind, because the fish eat parasites and keep its teeth clean, and the Nurse-fish get all the sustenance they need.

    There is a bird that does the same thing for elephants and hippos, (also a fish that cleans hippos in another part of Africa... you can see it on one of the docs on this site...)

    Just a couple of the thousands of examples of animals that succeed evolutionarily by co-operation, rather than predation.

    So "Survival of the most co-operative" is becoming a much more prevalant concept with evolutionists than Darwin's "survival of the fittest..."

    That is why I often say to the indoctrined jesus-lovers, that Darwin's theory of natural selection is still, to this day, up for review, but EVOLUTION is not. Just what causes it.

    I don't know if this helps you, Philip, but I suggest you go lie down...

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @Epicurus - "But Randy, your posts are brilliant, as are Young’s, Hate Machines, and Achems has some hits amongst the stuff that i would say is too out there for me... oh and im terribly sorry, SexMonkey and Charlesovery are very very bright also"

    I agree, especially with Achems brilliant ability to make me want to punch kittens.

  • Randy


    Ok. I tugged some more meaning out of your rant... there seems to be something.... (this is like when I was breaking codes for.... someone...), about female selective breeding?

    Yes, I did a paper on that! Because I love the idea of females governing the evolutionary progress of their speices, (I have Mother issues... what of it!).

    There was an elk in the British Isles, it was known as the Irish Elk, and it is extinct now, but it only went extinct in the last 1000 years or so. There is a castle in Ireland, (I think it's in Ireland, some Brit will come online and yell at me because it's in Manchester, or something, but when I toured the British Isles I was fairly drunk, so... I won't argue with him...)

    Anyway, apparently it is the last of the male Irish Elk's head and horn-rack on the wall over the great fire-place. It is magnificent! The horns are 15 feet across!

    Well, this animal was studied as to why it went extinct, and from the documentary evidence, (afterall, this was a major prey animal for people in the British Isles for centuries, they have a marked and written observance of them for generations), the females chose their mates based on horn size, (which is fairly common for many deer-like species).

    Well, as the females chose their mates for the longest horns, over the millenia, the horns grew so large that not only did the poor male have a hard time lifting it's head, it couldn't even walk through a forest because the antlers would impede his progress as they bumped against the trees.

    Extinction because of the females... Chicks, man, they will get you every time...

    Peacocks are another species, (actually, many bird species have females that choose the males based on, what SEEMS to us to be, arbitrary traits...), the pea-hen chooses the males with the longest and most symetrical and beautiful tails. But that makes them very vulnerable, in India, to tigers, that simply stomp a paw on the tail as the birds run away. That causes the peacock species to be close to extinction.

    And, finally, we as the Homo Sapiens we are, are suseptible to the allure of the females choosing us for dangerous characteristics.

    Our women want big, hairy men. Sorry, ladies, but that SEEMS to be true. The reason testosterone is so rampant in our systems, (a dangerous toxin, by the way!) is so our bodies can get BIG & HAIRY so that you will mate with us. And your selection techniques in our early, developmental history, led to what we look like now.

    It has been suggested that that is why we do not live as long as women, because testosterone is very bad for the heart and the lungs and the iiver... just.... you know.... shame on you... LOL!

    Also, there is penis size, which, per body mass, is larger, in humans, than any other mammal in the animal kingdom. You gotta know that women are responsible for that!


    Anyways, again, Philip, I suggest you go lie down.

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @Randy - Pretty much all flowering plants depend on animals to propagate there species. So your examples of evolutionarily co-operation missed a BIG chunk of life on earth.

    But how did plants evolve to even have flowers?

    Here is the original title of Darwin's book
    "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life."

    Here is a short sentence from the book.

    "On our theory the continued existence of lowly organisms offers no difficulty; for natural selection, or the survival of the fittest, does not necessarily include progressive development - it only takes advantage of such varations as arise and are beneficial to each creature under its complex relations of life."

    I think you should read the book and you will see that it not only incorporates any concept of “Survival of the most co-operative” but also demonstrates how these relations must have come to be.

    I think Darwin only uses the term "survival of the fittest" about 14 times in the entire book.

    You have to remember that this is the first time this idea was ever on paper. Using the term "survival of the fittest" was a way for Darwin to express his idea. It was easier to get a handle on then "natural selection".

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @Randy -

    From Wiki

    Darwin first used Spencer's new phrase "survival of the fittest" as a synonym for "natural selection" in the fifth edition of On the Origin of Species, published in 1869. Darwin meant it as a metaphor for "better adapted for immediate, local environment", not the common inference of "in the best physical shape". Hence, it is not a scientific description, and is both incomplete and misleading.

  • Randy


    Ok, I am reading, that you said in a shorter series of paragraphs, pretty much what I said in a more lengthy and boring way. Because you have a more eriudite and un-drink addled mind.

    And, plus, we are talking to a crack-head. Relax, my Pretty_little-HaTe_Machine!

  • Achems Razor

    @ H.M.

    I am glad that I can bring out the best in you. What took you so long , was waiting for your snide remarks and your feeble attempts at abuse.

    You want to punch kittens? are you a whoosie?? I hope you do not take out your hatred on people that can not fight back.

    I think you are a genuine coward! I have never abused you or anybody else! If you ever met me face to face, you would run, orange belt whoosie.

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @Randy - You sir error in your assumption of sobriety. I have partook in no fewer then 7 Modelo Especial. Having a quandary of lack of limes the decision to migrate to Yuengling is paramount if not emanate.

  • Randy

    @Hate_Machine, again:

    I have a few copies of the "Origin of Species" in my library, (including the newest one with the christian disclaimer in the cover-page!).

    There are many unanswered, or inadequetly anwered questions in Darwinian biology. Not the least of which is why we began walking upright, or why we lost the majority of our body hair.

    That does NOT in any way EVER-- NOT EVER! a way to discount Darwin or his absolute imperical genius and you must never, EVER claim that I EVER did.

    But, I do try and follow all the works of all the biologists that write papers and submit theories that, to my mind, COMPLIMENT and actually re-enforce Darwin's theories even as they try and fill in the gaps. But as always, EVOLUTION is a FACT, Darwin had a theory about it.

    I am an adherent of "The Aquatic Ape Theory" (look it up), I like it, Darwinians HATE it. It makes sense to me, but as it is all just science, I just drink it all in and love all of it. At least it don't got nothin' to do with the bible.

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @Achems Razor - Those are not the words of either a brave or competent man. Your insecurities shine through your childish attempts at threats.

    "If you ever met me face to face, you would run, orange belt whoosie."

    Since you know that the chances of ever meeting "face to face" are very slim you are confident to make the threat.

    There is no honor making threats on a written forum.

  • Achems Razor

    @ H.M.

    I have more honor than you, of always trying to run me down with all your insinuating remarks. You are the one that is hiding behind words.

  • Randy


    I am drinking Yuengling right now, too!

    I have a dissertation in moderation right now that is taking FOREVER. It's about female selective breeding, which I wrote a paper on, years ago...

    The Powers that be seem to have not liked it...

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @Randy - To use an analogy. Origin of species is the sledgehammer, modern science is working on the scalpels.

    I actually like the idea of an "The Aquatic Ape". There are alot of sharp idea that make sense out there.

    The term "Darwinian biology" makes me want to punch Achems cat.

    I would feel better if the "holes" were shifted to palaeontology or biology its self. We dont know how primates stood up because the fossil record isnt complete. Not because there is something wrong with Darwinian biology.

    Im being anal. Its just how I am. (INTJ Myers-Briggs personality type)

  • Achems Razor

    @ H.M.

    Try to punch my Doberman,

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @Achems Razor - You seem to fixate on me. Would you really consider it an achievement to have more honor then someone that calls themselves hate_machine? Maybe you are trying to mend a broken ego by projecting some weird Freudian "daddy doesnt think im smart" memories on me. If you are this easily rattled by just text on a screen, I would hate to see your insecurities in real life.

    "You are the one that is hiding behind words." If you haven't noticed this is a written forum. We are ALL hiding behind words. Including you.

  • Randy


    "The term “Darwinian biology” makes me want to punch Achems cat."

    Dude! You are such a nasty drunk! Don't be all punchin' cats!

    You also wrote:

    "We dont know how primates stood up because the fossil record isnt complete."

    Yes, and the Aquatic Ape theory says we lived in the water for a few hundred thousand years, so we should be looking for these transitional fossils in places where Africa had huge inland seas during that time in geological history.

    But, and I think, and rightly so, as money and funding is limited, the Darwinians, as they give little credence to Aquatic Ape theory, think looking in places that were underwater is a waste of time.

    They are going for, as I said in another post, the best bet. I certainly can't blame them.

    Although, it would be great to have some confirmation for my pet theory!

  • Morgan

    Charles B:
    "Down’s Syndrom is a malfunction of replication of chromosomes thus resulting in the addition of some genes on a specific chromosom. I’m not even sure if Down’s Syndrom victims can even have children. I’ve never known that to happen, have you? It’s not a good example as no novel DNA sequences are added, but rather is just misplaced normal DNA."

    I am new to this site and this is the first comment I have ever made. I would firstly like to point out that Down Syndrome (by the way it's spelled with an e) is actually where there is a duplicate of the 21st Chromosome. Also, just to be clear.. people born with disabilities are not 'victims' but they are people with many capabilities. I find in interesting to see the use of the word 'victim' in your description. Did somebody strike them with this added 21st chromosome? Perhaps your beloved god? Well that wasn't very nice of him was it?
    Also, I would like to be VERY clear in mentioning that people with Down Syndrome absolutely can have children. Maybe if you went out and met some of these 'victims' you would have a better understanding of people with disabilities.
    And lastly... out of curiosity.. please verify 'normal DNA'...

  • Achems Razor

    @ H.M.

    What a laugh, as soon as you came on line you jumped on me, I completely leave you alone when you leave me alone, but you never leave me alone. You are the one that is fixated!!

    Prove it to me and everyone else by just bugging off me!!!

  • Randy

    @Randy wrote:

    "But, and I think, and rightly so, as money and funding is limited, the Darwinians, as they give little credence to Aquatic Ape theory, think looking in places that were underwater is a waste of time."

    Holy crap! Try and diagram that sentence! Damnit! I used to be a writer... *sob*

    Now, as Oscar Wilde said,

    "I am a drinker with a writing problem!"

  • Randy


    Yes, I was going to correct Charles B. about his mistatements about people with Down's, as I have known a few and they are amazing people. But I got caught up in my own drama...

    And I know that they can have beautiful children of "normal" or, let us say, societaly acceptable intelligence... (really smart kids!).

    Not, of course, that people with Down's are not smart. I knew a guy named Ricky that out-thought most of the poeple around him, (including me, although that was not much of a contest for him, sadly... I can quote Plato's "Republic" but I can't fold a ladder without falling down and hurting myself...) in basic common sense pretty much hand's down.

    Thank you, Morgan.

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @Morgan - "I am new to this site and this is the first comment I have ever made."

    Very well written, elegant and passionate. Hope to see more posts from you in the future.

  • SexMoneyMonkey

    I think it's great that we are all drunk. I'm not sure Achem is but everything he says sounds like it's from a drunkard. Lawl.

    I'd like to point out that I agree with HaTe_MaChInE as it is harder to type his name correctly what with all the capital letters.

    What - ho folks. Chip chip cheerio!

  • Randy


    There is no choice but for geniuses to be drunk. We are surrounded by orangutans. It is a very hard life for people like us. We see life as it is, not for what we "dream" it will be or fantasize about what it will be, and we have no delusions about who's looking out for us.

    Probably a lot you guys can relate to this, but I was evaluated in 5th grade and the dude told my mother to get me in excellerated classes, (this was about a thousand years ago...) becasue he said I was too bored and unchallenged, blah blah.... you know the dynamic.

    Well, my mother was too busy with the sleeping all day parts of life to get involved with that, but, a lot of you can feel that feeling of boredom and unchallenging-ness in everyday life that makes you want to use substances...

    Look through out history, some of the greatest minds of any generation either drank too much or... well... I think you get the idea.

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @Randy - surrounded by orangutans

    Wish I had a orangutan... I have a poncho and sombrero that would look really nice on a orangutan. I would keep him as an indentured servant, his only job would be to drive me to the store to get more limes. After 5 years he would earn his freedom, but I would be willing to pay for the services if he is willing to stay. He would be my friend and confidant.

  • Randy


    You've got a whole, "Every Which Way but Loose" thing going on over there, don't you?

    (That's a Clint Eastwood flick from the early 80's, very bad but very, very popular, "inspiring" the sequel, "Every Which Way You Can!", further proving my point that our society is quite draining to people like us...)

    Actually, I will submit that the average American is not quite as intelligent as an Orangutan... that primate being one of the most intelligent of the species.

    Just my opinion...

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @Randy - Right turn clide!

  • Randy

    I believe his name was correctly spelled, "Clyde"?

    Show some respect for the ape!

    (Like, with all the torturous mis-spellings I have been subjecting you all to, I have any right to insist! It was just a joke, you got that, right?)

    Anyways... watching documentaries...

  • Epicurean_Logic

    So... this is what very bright people get up to when they are drunk.

    Have one on me too gents, please try not to over dilute with the non alchoholic stuff.

  • Randy


    You are not Epicurus! (that was a reference to an earlier series of posts in which you were mentioned...)

    Well, we do tend to talk about things much more substantial than football and chicks... We gotta be prouda that!

    Although, I do love baseball... my Phillies won 10-0 over the Mets today!!! You know.... yay... and stuff.

  • eireannach666

    Dawkins is awesome ...... every doc hes done I have always enjoyed. Oh and to the person complaining about schools teaching this an that , why not teach your own kids instead of relying on others ....... why close a childs mind and force them to never question things. How do you think technology and science have gotten to this point.It surety wasnt by not asking questions and just believing whatever you are tod without proof. Think for yourself and open your mind ................. or for a lack of better word...... shyte or get off the pot ....... oh and darwinist dont massacre people for being religious ........ unlike some other people i could mention...... damn christians.... oops did type that? religion is an infection that slows down progress . scientist should be left to do whatever research they can to evolve and progress.

  • Joh Seals

    Thanks for all the incouragement guys, I'm not absolutedly sure that it will be string theory but some type of physics for sure.All physics is interesting, I mean it is the study of motion, of action and reaction, of energy and mass- all the stuff that makes the world what it "is"- "is" beacause of the laws of physics. That's just really cool stuff to me- I love to set up the old potatoe gun experiment over and over just so I can prove that I can predict where the potatoe will land to within three inches everytime. If I could find away to measure my excellerant and then ionize it into the chamber correctly I think I cou ls get right on the dot. As is I use hair spray and measure the amount of fuel by how long I depress the valve that releases the hair spray. It's close enough that with the same can of hair spray and two tries I can put it with in three inches. That's by doing the math not adjusting by sight or any thing like that. Does any body else have any good physics experiments they could lay out for me. I want stuff where i can record data and then try to make predictions, if that makes sence.

  • Joh Seals

    woops, that was atomize not ionize, sorry.Point being the fuel ignites all at once this way and you get a better and more predictable shot.

  • Randy

    @John Seals

    Well, you are certainly an amazing man. If I were running that experiment, I would have lost limbs and possibly vision. I'm not joking. I'm all about the books but if I try to walk around the block I wind up tangled up in bushes and my wife has to fish me out. I'm sort of a sad kind of physical wreck.


    I agree with you, of course, but you have to be careful for the christian onslaught. Trotsky, Lenin, Mao, Marx, etc, all believed in science and hated religion but they were directly, or indirectly, responsible for the deaths of millions upon millions of people.

    What would you say to that in defense?

  • http://TDF Epicurean_Logic


    Although football and chicks are great,its nice to have a place to interact with people of a similar mind.

    on a personal level its also nice to see that it's not always about facts and figures, although we all admire and enjoy that sort of thinking. we all need to occasionally kick back and enjoy the juice of life that is intoxication.


  • Epicurean_Logic


    Try MIT opencourseware its free and look up Walter Lewins classical mechanics class.

    If you want a more involved challenge try creating a Math model of the long jump/high jump or some other similar sporting event.

    Good luck

  • Randy


    Very well put! I'll drink to that!

    Back in the day, my PHD buddies and I would knock back epic (not epic-urean), amounts of the drink while discussing topics that spanned the Universe... what glorious days!

    I wrote quite a few papers based on those drunken nights, and I'll submit that many of the papers and theories we embrace are the result of late night embibing sessions.

  • Morgan

    Thanks! I am trying to catch myself up in all these comments here, I never really go on these forums but this one's a little heated. And I like it.

    "To promote schools that only teach what you “believe”, is dangerous. Any school that doesn’t teach facts (or our best attempt at facts) should be shutdown in an instant. Fairy tales have no room in schools. Teach facts. Then teach them to question what they have been taught."

    Not that I don't agree with you, especially about the "Then teach them to question what they have been taught". I however do think that religion is an important enough subject to be taught in schools. Mainly because it is the cause of so many of the worlds problems, and as we know.. people who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

    I think it's important that children are taught about different religions around the world, what people believe, and why. And ideally have open discussions about it and be able to ask questions in a place where they do not feel threatened. Again this would be ideal (to me atleast) but probably not possible without the guarantee of good teachers who will not try to persuade anyone in any direction.

    Unfortunately, many children who were brought up where religion is the basis of their lives haven't got anywhere to go to meet anyone who could say "Hey.. have you ever thought of it this way...?" If every network you are apart of (school, church, family) believes in the same thing then where can kids go to get a different side to the story? Who will ever teach that child to question what they have been taught?

    Basically I think that an unbiased opinion that provides the cold hard facts regarding religion would be something that I would be intrigued to see taught in schools.. But maybe post secondary is where that should be kept. Who's to say?

  • Epicurean_Logic

    yeah sure, while the arts student were prancing around the cafeteria doing vertical splits and the like. we would be sitting around passionately discussing the most obtuse and odd concepts. thinkers really are very unusual people.

    If you can rotate the universe around the earth you could time travel back to those times according to the german uber-maths-nerd Godel. But its more likely that the universe is spinning in youre head at the moment.

    geez i fany a drink myself but its 8.30 in the morning over here.

    all the best

  • Randy


    Hello, again! You bring up some very thought provoking ideas!

    While, as you may be able to see if you see any of my posts, I am virulently anti-religion, however, I agree with you 100%, that all mythologies and mystical symbolism should be taught to everyone... even HaTe_MaChIne.

    All of the ancient, current and everything in between, concepts and ideas of mysticism are terribly important in that they tell a story and a psychological make-up of the society that invented them.

    Tarot cards and Astrology and Voodoo, etc. are not intrinsically valuable but as a reflection of humanity they are very telling. And if taught with the some analytical reflection, as opposed to investment, they can open up new areas of understanding for... oh jeeze I am boring myself, what must you think...?

    Anyways, all of this stuff should be taught in comparitive religion classes and science should be taught in science classes, as you suggested.

    As an important side note for Americans, (if you are one, as am I), as we trail the developing world in science and math, and so many other countries are kicking our arses in technological development because of it, perhaps someone should listen to us, hmmmm?

  • eireannach666

    @RANDY I wouldnt say marx-Lenin etc.... did these things based on disbelief of religion . It was more for the lust of power and conviction of their political beliefs . not to mention they were ( Lenin definitely )a little nuts.I mean,hitler was religious but that wass not really his main drive for the things he did- well had done......... People of power -dictators etc....... all use fear to maintain control..... if the public you dictate is pro god than use those fears - and the other way as well. but of course you end up having to get rid of opposition ...... and we all know how that ended up going ........ an evil man is an evil man........ no matter what their beliefs on religion are ,ya know. Funny you mentioned those guys because i just read a good book called"WHY STALIN WHY LENIN" by Theodore H. Von Laue prof of history @ Clark U or was anyway ....... check it out its agood read.

  • eireannach666

    WHY LENIN ?WHY STALIN? my bad randy

  • Randy


    I think you broke the code, my friend! Yes, human nature wins out everytime! You mentioned, "lust for power..." indeed, religion is often used as a mask for this psycho-sexual dynamic. But, science can be mis-used for that very same thing. The common denominator is humanity. Scientists have tried for generations to rise above this, but always they are co-opted by money and politics.

    Human nature dictates that humans, (mostly men!), will use any excuse to dominate other men. As an abuse victim, I can see this is really the way to oblivion... (Achems! Don't take that too literally! That's a private joke, between Achems and me...)

    Anyone remember the news footage of Oppenhiemer after the first atomic tests? When he quoted the hindu scripture, "I have become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds..." the man looked like a shell, and his haunted eyes were blinking back tears. He knew he was principle in designing a bomb/weapon that could destroy humanity and the war machine made him do it. Science co-opting humanity...

    Finally, I will look into that book you reccommend and seriously.... good answer!

  • Randy

    Sorry, I should have written, "...humanity co-opting science..." back there after the Oppenhiemer stuff, which I thought was really good and then totally ruined by my confused brain...

  • eireannach666

    @Randy You know its a shame the humans always find a way to fux up something so beautiful and awesome , like the splitting of an atom, and turn it into something of horror , death and destruction ...... but on the other hand , better them than us. We had to get there first. I remember reading once "I dont know which weapons WW3 will be fought with , but WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones".------- Einstein

  • Charles B.

    Morgan: I didn't mean any disrespect for people with Down's Syndrome. Yes, I even know which chromosome was duplicated (or have read about it several times). However I hadn't known that they could have children as I've not known anyone with Down's that has. Sorry, if I upset you with my comment. "Normal DNA" is DNA a sliding scale, I suppose, as any genetic disorder could preclude that. My daughter carries my colorblind gene, and I know that from my studies, so even we would not have perfect or normal DNA by some standards.


    John Seals: I don't like ignorance or lack of education, but neither of those are soul-theatening in nature. The theory of Evolution, in my opinion is.

    Grace to you.

    Randy: No, you're not beyond hope and certain of damnation. Very few are, but most choose never to turn around. Try to make a better choice than most.

    Faith to you, today!

    Mr. Razor: You asked, " Thank you for your time and effort in replying to me.

    It must be nice to have God speaking to you in the first person as per human sacrifices. When you say Lord, I imagine you are referring to God itself, or is that his son?

    Did he reply in an actual voice or was it done telepathically?

    I am honestly curious."

    The way God usually speaks to me is in my mind. I've yet to hear an audible voice, but I've known people that have, but such is quite rare. My sister heard an angel speak to her in a male voice once, and I had a friend that God told her were to find lost nylons (long story) in an audibly voice once.

    However, the Bible tells us that God uses a "still small voice" and one that can easily be ignored if you wish. Like Elijah in the cave; the voice of God was not heard in the fire, or the wind, but in a small quiet voice that followed. It's very purposeful. Many times God doesn't speak to my spirit directly when I pray but often I feel a strong answer to specific questions. The New Testament says that "My sheep know my voice, and will not follow another." My gut feeling is that it is Chrsit that replies strongly to my spririt when I "know" it's Him. His voice is quiet, soft, patient, kind, and rarely harsh but always purposeful.

    I can think of only one very strong rebuke that comes to mind, and that was when my friend was going through a messy divorce and I flippantly said, "God, he still loves that woman!" I heard a very sharp rebuke, "And so do I!" and I felt very ashamed of my lack of sincere care for his wife's soul and spiritual state (as well as my friend's). She as most likely cheating on him at the time, so I didn't have much sympathy for her.

    Do you have kids Mr. Razor? I think you mentioned grown up daughters one time a long time ago (maybe). Well, when your kid is playing and you here crying, you think "Is that my kid?" Sometimes it's not, but occasionally you KNOW, "Oh, that's MY son crying!" as there's just no doubt. It's like that with God's voice too; sometimes you might wonder if it's just yourself speaking in your own mind, but other times it's a very definate "God's voice" understanding beyond any doubt.

    P.S. I won't post much I don't think for a while. I'm burned out a bit on the comments even if I watch the docs.

    As far as the commpliments are all going around, I like your comments the best, Mr. Razor (among the Atheists of course). Usually fair in my opinion and just enough passion to add interest.


  • Achems Razor

    @ Charles B:

    Thank you for the compliment, as least you think my comments are fine.
    Not so some other people. I am probably ahead of the times (LOL)

    Well yes, I am in tune with my daughters emotions. But has nothing to do with any God's.
    God speaks to a person to find lost nylons? no wonder everything is going to h^ll in a hand-basket! Me-things that he has not got the priorities straight.

    I once knew a person who always prayed to God just to find a parking spot.
    Anyway, I wish you the best, and "never give up".

  • Randy

    Charles B. wrote:

    "I don’t like ignorance or lack of education, but neither of those are soul-theatening in nature. The theory of Evolution, in my opinion is..."

    Well, ignorance and lack of education are certainly NATION threatening, if not "soul" threatening. I mean, I know you are in South Korea, (arguably the fastest growing christ-y place on Earth...) but, here in America, I am concerned that we are falling FAR behind the rest of the world in... you know... knowledge.... as opposed to... you know... superstition.

    Thanks jesus, for destroying our wonderfully concieved but horribly executed, (thanks to you!), Republic!

  • eireannach666

    @Achems Razor thanks ..... i just said a similar thing to some dude eailer(Jack or some shyte)..... oh well .... at least some of us get it @RANDY sux doesnt it?,,,,,,,,, i feel you ............... but this what happens when one thing disregards one because it contradicts the other . NO TOLERENCE is bad but ignorance is DEADLY ....... Slainte

  • Charles B.

    Razor: I think I included the nylon story on another thread somewhere, but in brief:

    My friend Donna Mea D. has a daughter that the doctors said would die in childhood from some disease or disorder. I can't remember specifically what. Donna Mea and her husband Bob have always been a faithful church goers including Wednesday nights. She was running late and went to get her nylons (appearently she kept them in a chest of drawers in the bathroom). She opened the top drawer and found nothing. In built-up dispair, she wept "God! Don't you care? I can't even find a clean pair of nylons for church!"

    I male voice from the top of the room near the corner of the room calmly said, "Donna, if you pull out the last drawer, you will find a pair of clean nylons that have fallen behind." Without batting an eye, she said, "Oh, thank you, Lord!" and pulled out the bottom drawer to find the lost pair of nylons exactly where the Lord said they would be.

    It was only then that she realized what had happened and stunned that she had actually heard a actual voice tell her where to find the nylons. She just laid there on the floor and wept. She understood that if God cared about nylons, He cared about everything else as well. I got the impression she had not heard an audible voice before or after that time, but the one time only.

    Bob and Donna's daughter was alive the last time I talked to them some 40 years after she was supposed to have died, so God was not really so concerned with the nylons as He was with the situation as a whole.

    It touched my heart. I believed every word of her story. It's ok to pray for even the small things just as long as you don't blame God for not saving a parking spot for you when you are the one running late and in a bad mood. Many times we have not because we ask not (from God).

    The key is patience and wisdom in knowing God's response when it comes. Even Jesus prayed an "impossible" prayer that this cup (his appointment with the cross and his death on the cross) would pass from him if there were any other way. He prayed that 3 times, and obviously the answer was "No. This must be the way it must be." I think Jesus knew that even before he prayed the prayers, so I'm very tollerent with people's prayers; I judge not the best I can as we don't know how or what God is speaking to their hearts at the moment. I wonder if I could have found more parking spots (when I drove a car that is) if I had just prayed more often to find one! ;-)

  • go2mark

    @Charles B.
    I find it interesting that ivy league universities (harvard.yale,princeton. ect) were started as christian schools for the purpose of expanding knowledge and understanding for the advancement of humanity. But now they have removed any discussion of God and replaced it with corporate politics to serve the greed of the elite global megalomaniacs. how can it be that the earth is 75% water yet nearly 50% of the population struggles to get clean drinking water. even here the US we have to buy good drinking water. yet we think its important that we send ships to mars. have you noticed how much the evolunies love to pat themselves on the back.
    ignorance is only deadly to those who claim to be wise. i suspect that 2000 years ago people were much happier with their donkey and wicker baskets than they are today with their Mercedes Benz and iphone.

  • eireannach666

    @CHUCK B coincidence ....... be thankful for them not faithful in them...... peAce

  • eireannach666

    SLAINTE! go2mark

  • Charles B.

    Epicurus (or whomever): I have an evolution/geology question for you.

    What I view as the hardest part of the geological part of earth's history to explain is the divergence of fossils in different rock layers. 1. How do you date rock layers and therefore the fossils found in them? 2. How do you explain the vast spaces in between the fossil communities where nothing is found? It seems fossil species come and go entirely unique and perfectly within their own fossil layers. What is your take on this?

    Vlatko last year gave a piece about why fossils are so few and far between, but I'd also like your take on it. I'm not trying to be tricky. It's something I plan to study out myself, and I'd like to hear your best explanation while I also search websites of faith for their answers.


  • Randy

    @Charles B.

    Well, I'll give it a shot, although Epicurus could probably do better.

    First: let's get something out of the way. Are you a "Young Earther"? Because, the young Earth idea is silly from step one. Look up at the night sky. See the stars? Most of those stars in the visible spectrum are more than 100,000,000 light years away. That would mean, as the speed of light is 186,000 miles per second, that if the world was only 6000 years old, you would see no stars.

    A light year is the distance light travels in one year. 186,000 miles per second... times a year... think hard... not theory-- fact, Einstien proved it with testable and measurable results.

    Second: and maybe most important because this is not stressed in public schools, it is a huge "lottery win" if a species of animal makes a fossil when it dies. I mean, the confluence of events and natural elements are really almost impossible to imagine.

    As I have stated in another post, it is really a testament to how very, very old the Earth is that we have as many fossils, from so many species, as we have, (like the entire Royal Natural History Museum, or the Philadelphia Natural History Museum, or all the other museums that are filled with fossils and they are enormous buildings, and I could spend my whole life browsing them...).

    There must have been thousands upon thousands of animal species to have walked this planet that died and never left a fossil. Once again, the fact that we have any at all, is really remarkable, and more proof that this a very old planet.

    Third: dating is a very long and detailed process. There are many steps that take many years and many scientists from all over the known world. Everything is taken into consideration. Any organic material in the strata is carbon dated. Despite what your pastor tells you, because he doesn't understand it, it is very, very accurate. How do I know?

    Carbon molecules have a rate of radioactive decay that is so predictable, so mathmatically perfect, that it is like some great cosmic clock. When you get a carbon molecule, you can tell how old it is by simply measuring the amount of decay on a radiological level. If it wasn't true, the atom bomb wouldn't work.

    I was told, by christian hyper-ventalists, that CARBON DATING IS WRONG!!! THE DEVIL!!! RUN TO YOUR 'FRAIDY-HOLE!!! Etc. and whatever. It's simple, predictable, science, I've SEEN it working. Just because you were poorly educated doesn't mean it ain't true.

    Finally, after all the carbon dating of of any biological material is gathered, the logical sedimentation of the Earth's rock strata is simply counted and we can tell from the layers of sedimentation how old the find is, within some hundreds of years, further refined by carbon dating...

    You know? WHY ARE WE EVEN DISCUSSING THIS??? How is this not evident to you! What century is this??!? Where were you educated!!!! Holy Batman!

    So, frustrating....

  • Randy

    @Charles B.

    Sorry, I'm just cranky...

  • Hardy

    Vlatko - please delete the comment that is awaiting moderation, thank you :-)

    Almost good explanation, but one quick correction:

    For dating very old fossils, Potassium/Argon-dating is used. Carbon-dating doesn’t accurately determine the age of organic material older than ~60,000-70,000 years because of the extremely low percentages of the C-14 after so many years.

    Potassium is a very common particle in stone, rock and other ‘date-able’ material. When on the surface, potassium decays and the argon that is produced leaves into the atmosphere.

    But when enclosed inside stone, the argon-gas is trapped inside the stone. When you pulverize this rock inside a mass spectrometer, the argon gas that was trapped inside the rock is measurable. With this technique, you can determine when exactly the rock sample solidified.

    If you would like to know how a mass spectrometer works, I recommend the wikipedia-article (remove the spaces before and after ‘wikipedia’:

    en. wikipedia .org/wiki/Mass_spectrometry#Mass_analyzer_technologies

  • Randy

    @Hardy (a very cool guy/girl and I am glad to see him/her again!)

    He wrote, brilliantly:

    "For dating very old fossils, Potassium/Argon-dating is used. Carbon-dating doesn’t accurately determine the age of organic material older than ~60,000-70,000 years because of the extremely low percentages of the C-14 after so many years."

    Yes, yes, I was trying to simplify it for the biblically impaired... please, look at the page and a half of stuff I wrote with just carbon dating... lordy!

  • Charles B.

    To: Epicurean_Logic

    Epicurean_Logic 05/02/2010 at 01:33
    Yahweh encourages human sacrifice:

    Judges chapter 11 contains a story in which a Judge named Jephthah makes a vow to God to sacrifice the first thing that comes out of the door of his house in exchange for God’s help with a military battle against the Ammonites. Much to his dismay, his only daughter greeted him upon his triumphant return. Judges 11:39 states that Jephthah kept his vow.

    E_L, your very accurate in your citing of the story, but your supposition is the only thing that is not correct. This passage grieves my heart, not just as a Christian, but as a father. I'm revolted by it and I know that God is too. I believe God has given my some insight here that I had not thought of before.

    As you said, Jephthah was a judge of Israel at the time and they were at war with the Ammonites. A victory was need against the Ammonites, and Jephthah in a rash moment made a vow to God that was not God's will. In fact, Jesus (whom I believe to be fully God as well, said not to make vows at all, but let your "Yes" be "yes" and your "No" be "no". Jesus even said that anything more is "OF THE DEVIL." That's a really heavy statement to digest that vows, even to God, spoken rashly, are not of God, but of Satanic inspiration. Such was the case with Jephthah. It was a SIN and a heinous act of stupidity on his part. He shouldn't have made the vow, and even though he did, he surely shouldn't have followed through with it. It wasn't God's desire nor God's pleasure to see the girl killed by her own father. God didn't even like to see a calf boiled in it's own mother's milk, let alone a dear child killed by her own father who was supposed to be called by God's name as a "judge" of the nation of Israel.

    So, why then did God give a victory to Jephthah's army? The answer is so simple that people overlook it; because a victory was needed for them. God's desire was to give a victory to the people of Israel over their enemies at this time, and had Jephthah humbled his heart in prayer and offered God a promise of sacrifice of lambs or calves, or even no sacrifice at all, but just a heart-felt plead for His deliverance of Israel, God would have proved to be just as faithful. This sin of Jephthah is still causing the shipwreck of faith of people that read it and wrongfully assume that God gave Jephthah the victory BECAUSE of his vow. That just is not so.

    Another example of God answering a rash action is Moses. Moses initially stuck a rock in the desert and water came forth for the people of Israel (at God's command). Ok. So far, so good! The second time, however, God told Moses to "speak" to the next stone, but Moses in his anger over the people's "lack of faith in God," stuck the second stone and water still poured forth. God later punished Moses for his anger and for disobeying Him and striking the rock most severely and wouldn't allow him to enter the very Promised Land he was leading the people to. Why then did God allow the second rock to bring forth water when it was done in "sin"? The answer is simple: because the people were thirsty. Had Moses had spoken to the rock, it still would have brought forth water, but he wouldn't have been punished for disobedience. Had Jephthah only prayed for God's victory, rather than make such a sinful vow, then he would be a Biblical "hero" as opposed to one of the Bible's most ignoble examples of shame, and one that on one should ever follow.

    Yahweh endorses burnt human sacrifice:

    2 kings 3:1-27 relates the following story. For the crime of not paying annual tribute of 100000 lambs and 100000 rams with the wool (2 kings 3:4) a battle commences between Judah, Israel (separate, often opposed states at the time) and Moab. Whilst the followers of Jahweh (or was it El. I always get those two confused!)are about to defeat Moab,3:27 states that,
    “Then he took his (the king of Moab) eldest son that should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering on the wall.AND THERE WAS GREAT INDIGNATION AGAINST IS-RA-EL (from who?)and they departed from him (Moab), and returned to their own land.”

    Good Question! Who help indignation against Isreal? The king of Judah (Jehoshaphat), and the King of Edom and their armies. That's who left the king of Israel (Jehoram), completely repulsed by the outcome of their joint campaign. It was not an answer of God to the sinful sacrifice of the king of Moab, if that is what you are implying. Let me explain:

    This is a very sad story also. First of all, all the characters are evil men in God's eyes, except for the king of Judah (Jehoshaphat). We should note that Elisha tells wicked Jehoram "Why don't you just go ask your wicked mother and wicked father's gods for help?" (2 Kings 2:13 paraphrased). But for the King of Judah's sake provides water for their armies so that they can defeat the Moabites.

    This is proved by the fact that the prophet Elisha said, "As the Lord of hosts liveth, before whom I stand, surely were it not that I regard the presence of Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, I would not look toward thee, nor see thee." KJV.

    You must remember that Judah and Israel were part of a a divided kingdom comprised of the Jewish people at this time.

    Jehoshaphat and the king of Edom went with Jehoram to fight against the king of Moab who had been serving as a vassal of the king of Israel but refused to pay tribute any longer. The alliance between Judah, Israel, and Edom breaks down after the Moabites are beaten, but before the Moab king is taken himself. The person doing the human sacrifice is the king of Moab (not a righteous man either). The king of Edom and righteous King Jehoshaphat are so repulsed by the action, that they forsake the wicked king of Israel at this time (Jehoram) for bringing about the situation that set this repugnant act in motion.

    Human sacrifice was so repulsive to the other kings, that they turned against wicked Israel and just left the whole situation in disgust.

    To whom was the human sacrifice offered? It's not mentioned. Was it to God or to a god of the Moabites or to King Jehoram himself? It's only speculation to guess, but in essence it was saying, "OK! You win. I'm defeated! I've sacrificed the heir to my throne, just spare my life!" And it worked. Even if it were to the one true God (Yahweh), which I highly doubt, such an offering is just as repulsive to God as it is to us, and probably much more so. I rather think I might do the same thing as Jehoshaphat and the king of Edom in the same situation. Anyone so pathetic as to kill his own son to save his own worthless skin is best left to live in pathetic self-misery and service as a vassal to wicked King Jehoram.

    Nonetheless, and in conclusion, this is not an example of God-sectioned human sacrifice as you would have us believe, but just more examples of sin shame and revolting pagan cowardice. The very reasons that God forbids human sacrifice in many places.

    Peace to you. Glad I could help elucidate the passage for you. Let me know if you have any further questions for me.

    Charles B.

  • Charles B.

    Hardy and Randy: Ok. Thanks. Will read it again when I'm not sleepy and I'm not spending more "family time" here. And "No," actually. I'm not a "young-earther". Look up "Mr. B.'s theory for everything" as I think I ramble on about different possibilities there for the age of the earth/universe.

    Peace to you all. Good night.

    Charles B.

  • Randy

    @anyone who read my posts or Hardy's...

    I wrote:

    "Third: dating is a very long and detailed process. There are many steps that take many years and many scientists from all over the known world. Everything is taken into consideration..."

    I was including what Hardy explained so well in that statement, but he/she is right, there are so many, MANY dating tests available now, that any dating problems that any of the fundies want to imagine.... are pretty much fruitless...

  • Randy

    Charles B. wrote:

    "Judges chapter 11 contains a story in which a Judge named Jephthah makes a vow to God to sacrifice the first thing that comes out of the door of his house in exchange for God’s help with a military battle against the Ammonites. Much to his dismay, his only daughter greeted him upon his triumphant return. Judges 11:39 states that Jephthah kept his vow.

    E_L, your very accurate in your citing of the story, but your supposition is the only thing that is not correct. This passage grieves my heart, not just as a Christian, but as a father. I’m revolted by it and I know that God is too.

    Chucky! Aren't you getting tired of apologizing for this imaginary friend of yours? How do you know that your god is grieved by this passage? Did he tell you? Why is it that you think you would never do that to your daughter but your god seems to think it's acceptable?

    What if your god gets totally hot from this passage? Maybe it, (your god), is a terribly sick monster. I mean, that is what I think, just from the text... how can you prove otherwise?

    You keep showing us all of these horrible passages and then trying to explain the horror away. Desperate, you are, to cling to this belief... Why?

    I have my ideas, but if I elucidated them, it would offend you really hard, and I don't want to get into that. It has to do with what you do for a living and whether you could survive without a church subsidizing your family...

    But, without going into any detail, I would ask you, if you did let go of this demonic-god, what would you do for a living? How would you forge your way in the world if you weren't espousing the beliefs of a ghostly parent?

    What skills and education could you offer the world, besides tyranny and the threat of a Godzilla monster-god stomping homosexuals to death?

  • Randy

    go2mark wrote this gem:

    "they [godless commies*] have removed any discussion of God and replaced it with corporate politics to serve the greed of the elite global megalomaniacs. how can it be that the earth is 75% water yet nearly 50% of the population struggles to get clean drinking water. even here the US we have to buy good drinking water...."
    *footnote: That was me, Randy, qualifying his "they" term.

    Ok, I'm gonna point out the hideous lack of schooling here and I want all of my friends that have read a book in the last 20 years, or read a newspaper, or read ANYTHING, to jump all over this. There is an essential flaw in this statement that, really, deserves an apology to the entire human species. See if you can spot it:

    " can it be that the earth is 75% water yet nearly 50% of the population struggles to get clean drinking water. even here the US we have to buy good drinking water..."

    Did you see it? The flaws are many but sparkling. Can you diagram the flaws that just bubble over like sweet ambrosia?

    Oh, Batman... take me away from these sad, dangerous animals...

  • Achems Razor

    Ninety-eight% of the water is in Oceans. About 2% is fresh, but 1.6% is in ice caps and glaciers.
    0.36% is found underground. approx. 0.036% in lakes or rivers.

    The rest is floating as clouds and water vapor, or in plants and animals.

    If a person weighs 100 lbs. 65 lbs. is water, their is also soda pop, milk and orange juice etc: on shelves fridges, etc:
    Approx. several billion gallons of water sitting on shelves at any given time.

  • SexMoneyMonkey

    @Charles B

    You have some kind of mental disorder if you're hearing voices in your head. Your God is something you created. You read the bible and it's your subjective opinion of it that you think is true.

    The Christian god doesn't exist. Only fools still cling to that belief.

    I can't get past the sheer lack of intelligence in so many of your beliefs. I sincerely hope you seek psychological help before your disorder ends up hurting you and those around you.

  • Randy


    The absolute worst part of the bible, for me, is the lack of respect, or any human compassion for women.

    I love women! Why doesn't Chucky B's god like women? Does he need to come out of the closet, like Tom Cruise?

    Or, more directly, do the camel herders in the sandstorms that went crazy from the heat and wrote the bible... did THEY need to come out of the closet?

    I mean, if you want to treat women so badly, (I'm looking at you christians and muslims), don't you think there is an underlying homoeroticism in that, "I hate women, but men are awesome!"

    I mean, I don't really like men, no offense to you if you are one... I don't even like myself, but my wife is AWESOME!

    Women rule, and they are all pretty and such.... and men are stinky-like... if even I can see that why can't Chucky's god? Because she talked to talking snake? And all women forever must suffer the indignation of the crime of Eve? For all generations of women? Cursed forever by Chucky's god? I mean, really?

    Ridiculous. What a jerk this god is!

  • Achems Razor

    Yes, women are the cat's meow! can't help it with the cat's. if you know what I mean!
    The religee's believe that God is a male, that is why the subjugation of the wonderful female species.

    After all where they not made from a mans rib?

    And yes women rule, they have much power, that is why men are scared s***less of them. So they have, and are still trying with some religions to keep them under control.

  • go2mark

    Has your primitive cry for help to trivialize a post from a imbecile like myself fallen on deaf ears ? Surely your "Post Hole Digger" intellect can do better than that. If you dont like the post you could simple ignore it, just like your alter egos have chosen to do. Even batman has not come to your rescue. Come on, bring the hate that i know you are so capable of. At least AR has made an effort to disparage my post with out the surly attitude which you know so well. I am truly sorry to hear that you hate men so much but love women. If this post gets moderated i truly understand but i wonder why yours did not since it really only serves to conjure up some kind of vitriolic dispersion of truth. Please enlighten me as to why you hate men so much.

  • Epicurean_Logic

    much as i disagree with your analysis Charles.B i do admire your bravery and willingness to stick to your beliefs in the face of overwhelming multi directional criticism. A very ( although not exclusively ) christian attitude!

    'E_L, your very accurate in your citing of the story, but your supposition is the only thing that is not correct.'

    If you mean the 'endorses' part of it i suppose that it would be more acurate to say 'Jahweh does not kill, smite ,destroy or even admonish a human sacrifice in his name' buts thats just overdoing it i think.

    “OK! You win. I’m defeated! I’ve sacrificed the heir to my throne, just spare my life!” And it worked

    Strange gambit that one! i go in to whack you beacause you didint pay my tribute but i leave when you sacrifice you son. I just dont get that at all.

    I apologise for the limited scope of my response. i usually try to keep the destructive ideas to a minimum and focus on the creative. The preserving part is just not in my nature yet.

  • go2mark

    Your ranting makes as much sense as a Jurassic park movie. in 1 scene the T-REX is standing inside the fence next to the vehicle eating a goat. a few scenes later the T-REX is pushing the vehicle over a 100 ft drop in the same spot he was eating the goat just minutes earlier. This seems strikingly similar to your expose on the methodologies of carbon dating.

  • Hardy

    @go2mark: Just because you are too intellectually incompetent to understand a scientific method doesn't disprove it's credibility. Sorry to sound harsh, but it's just the way it is.

  • Randy


    "...much as i disagree with your analysis Charles.B i do admire your bravery and willingness to stick to your beliefs in the face of overwhelming multi directional criticism. A very ( although not exclusively ) christian attitude!..."

    I'd like to respectufully disaggree with you Epicurean_Logic. Charles B. lives in South Korea where he is surrounded by people who agree with him and re-enforce his beliefs and even pay him for those beliefs. Any christian in America, where I live, has a vast support system all around them that includes institutions, political processes, media, and the small-minded, allow me to even further distill the idea, infantilically-minded, public.

    Praising a religious man or woman in a tiny-minded society like we have in America, or any other radically christian society, I think, would be akin to praising the men that put Galileo on the rack for THEIR bravery.

    True bravery, in America, I think, comes from men and women of intellect and with a passion for truth. A respect for the beauty of logic, or the the elegance of mental accuity. Trying mightily to stand tall in the face of a brutish, mindless, slavering lack of respect for anyone who struggles so hard to educate and better themselves without the medieval superstitions of their primitive forebears.

    I have known and loved many of those powerfully minded men and women and see many of them on this site, and the idea that many of the shrieking maniacs don't, (or even can't), read the ONE silly book by which they profess to live their lives, all the while clubbing the men and women who spend their lives studying oceans of information... sorry.... I just get carried away with my frustration and I tend to... well... *deep breaths*

    Bottom line: it's always much braver to stand for truth and education than for easy, conventional "wisdom".

  • SexMoneyMonkey


    Willingness to stick to your belief is just another way of saying unwillingness to learn or come out from stone age beliefs. It's hardly a thing to be admired. About as worthy as admiration as a six year old who just won't learn addition.

  • Randy

    go2mark wrote:

    "Come on, bring the hate that i know you are so capable of. At least AR has made an effort to disparage my post with out the surly attitude which you know so well. I am truly sorry to hear that you hate men so much but love women. If this post gets moderated i truly understand but i wonder why yours did not since it really only serves to conjure up some kind of vitriolic dispersion of truth. Please enlighten me as to why you hate men so much."

    Me? I am certainly and willingly capable of hate. Especially, the hatred of ignorance, which is a foul darkness that blinds the whole world. However, I undertood that for christians, hatred is frowned upon. So, from where does your hatred arise?

    He also wrote:

    "Please enlighten me as to why you hate men so much..."

    Um... I think we both discussed our past and the sexual abuse we endured at the hands of... men... I mean, you said you liked it, that is fine for you... I was NOT enjoying myself. To me, on a very basic, "brain-stem" level, men are "punishers, and rapists", (those words are really too harsh, but I engage in hyperbole to make a point...). and even though my mother was absent and distant, she certainly was the BETTER choice!

    Later in life, I discovered the wonder of other women, not my mother. And I was transfixed and have loved them.... well, what the hell.... why do I even have to explain THIS basic process of life...

    Holy Batman, I go from carbon dating to "why you should enjoy the opposite sex...?!" And, some of you question why I want to leave this world?

  • go2mark

    it sounds like you feel threatened by homosexuality. This does not make sense coming from a evolunni . Doesn't evolution teach that it is a perfectly natural thing since it is a function of our genes. Also why would you hate ignorance being that it is also perfectly natural. You should have more compassion for the ignorant since you have been blessed with such a superior intellect.

  • Epicurean_Logic

    Randy & SMM

    'Praising a religious man or woman in a tiny-minded society like we have in America, or any other radically christian society,...'

    I think that this is the point for us Brits, we just aren't bombarded daily with radically religous points of view and their consequences. it is more of a you are entitled to your opinion however misguided i may think it is and i am entitled to mine.

    I get that you guys may find this a bit of a copout , and it certainly doesnt make for great debate but its really just part of the cultural divide and the English national point of view; modern christianity is much more liberal in nature here in the U.K.

  • Randy

    go2mark wrote:

    " sounds like you feel threatened by homosexuality. This does not make sense coming from a evolunni..."

    Nothing could be further from the truth. My best friend in the world, a brother, really, is gay and I love him and am ENFURIATED that christinity is denying his basic human, and Constitutional rights based on a series of horror novels written by men with sand in their shorts...

    It's like Morgan Freeman's character said in "Shawshank Redemption" refering to the rapists in the prison, "[they aren't gay] to be gay, they would have to be HUMAN, and they don't qualify..."

    That's how I see my abuser. Not gay, just in-human.

    Oh, and by the way, the best bars are gay bars. Clean, safe, and they have the best music and strongest drinks. The people are much more polite and friendly; much less testosterone feuled rage fighting over women like chimps... etc.

    Just a note if you are out and about...

  • Randy

    @Epicuean_Logic wrote:

    "I get that you guys may find this a bit of a copout , and it certainly doesnt make for great debate but its really just part of the cultural divide and the English national point of view; modern christianity is much more liberal in nature here in the U.K."

    I get that. And I admire it tremendously! Which is why I tried to point it out, and illustrate it to you; you simply have no idea what it is like to live over here in the land of the shaggy brute-people!

    Even though you are an Anglish and stole all of my ancestor's potatoes! (LOL) I'm Irish but I still love and kid my Anglish cousins!


  • go2mark

    i on the other hand am both english and irish so i have the unfortunate genes which contribute greatly to both my ignorance and homophobia.

  • Randy


    "i on the other hand am both english and irish so i have the unfortunate genes which contribute greatly to both my ignorance and homophobia..."

    Now, see? When you talk like that it makes me want to hug you and stop being mean to you...

    And I feel embarassed at myself, and stuff...

    Hey! If you are part Irish then, I say, you have a great mind in there and you can read and fill that great Irish mind with knowledge! Defeat the potato stealing Anglish part of you with great learning!

    I kid the Anglsih because I love...

  • Epicurean_Logic

    'I get that. And I admire it tremendously! Which is why I tried to point it out'

    You really are one step ahead ofthe game.

    Even though you are an Anglish and stole all of my ancestor’s potatoes! (LOL) I’m Irish but I still love and kid my Anglish cousins!

    and despite your negligable Irish ancestry i still love you man.

  • go2mark

    to randy
    apologies accepted. ;D

  • Randy

    Epicurean_Logic wrote to me, and made me laugh uproariously:

    "and despite your negligable Irish ancestry i still love you man..."



  • Epicurus

    now now, watch out we all know us irish have bred and multiplied like rabbits. we may outnumber you now....we are like the jews of western europe lol.

    notice the power of nationalism though...go2mark and randy stopped attacking one another pretty quickly as soon as they realized they both had same ancestors....maybe one day people (if they finally accept the fact of evolution) will realize that our connection as human beings and even more, as living beings all evolved from the same hardy single cell is more important than the imaginary friend we use to make sense out of this nonsense.

    HA doubt it.

  • go2mark


    that would kinda do away with the evolution thing wouldn't it ?

  • Randy


    *sigh* and we were making SUCH progress...

  • Epicurus

    the sentence "doing away with evolution" is somewhat akin to saying "doing away with random gene drift and changes in allele frequency during birth coupled with natural selection"

    it doesnt make sense...

    so what about what i said does away with evolution?

  • go2mark

    randy will really be perturbed when he finds out i am a closeted evolunni.

  • Epicurus

    is an evolunni like a gravitist? or a germist? or a round earther? maybe like a heliocentricist?

    lol evolunni is just ridiculous. why would there be a title for someone who accepts fact?

  • go2mark

    whats missing here is the lack of a sense of humor or inability to detect sarcasm. either way too much critical thinking can really take the fun out of life.

  • Epicurus

    yea i do have the problem of too much critical thought. and its true text does steal away any ability to express sarcasm...

  • go2mark

    sometimes the only way to be funny is to make fun of yourself. when that fails just mock everybody else in the room. sometimes hate manifests itself in the absence of a good sense of humor. the best way to overcome that is to just accept our own limited understanding of humanity.

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @go2mark - You Rang?

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    Humor is relative, like good taste. Some have it, some know it when they see it, and some will never get it.

  • Randy


    You magnificent ba***rd! (moderation s**ks, but is important...).

    Good to see you, again! Don't engage go2mark right now, he is going through an ontological and psycho-sexual crisis...

    I've been posting alot since you left. Maybe you would be so kind as to correct/amplify my work? Your comments, as are the other great minds on this site, always welcome!

  • go2mark

    just watch enough jon stewart and anyone can become a cynical genius .

  • Randy

    I rudely wrote to HaTe_MaChine:

    "Maybe you would be so kind as to correct/amplify my work? Your comments, as are the other great minds on this site, always welcome!"

    As if I was speaking for our great web-master... I should have said, "Your comments, as are the other [comments of the] great minds on this site, are always welcome, to ME... [if you care to do so...]"

    Does that make any sense to you at all?

  • Epicurus

    as much as i admire the character Sheldon on The Big Bang Theory, i believe my social skills are much better than his. but thank you for the compliment.

    i would probably be more like leonard. Nerdy yet able to hide it and a very hot girlfriend.

    but thanks for reminding me the new episode is on. im recording it on my DVR.

  • Randy


    I heartily apologize for that last convoluted series of sentences. I really should be ashamed of myself for that abuse of the Anglish language...


  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @Morgan - " I however do think that religion is an important enough subject to be taught in schools."

    One of my favorite classes I ever took was "The bible as literature" I dont think the story of romeo and Juliet are fact but I think the story should be examined at many levels.

    Feelings are a fact. Philosophy is a fact. Religion is a fact. If you sin you go to hell is not a fact. Pollock is a fact. Auguste Rodin is a fact. A man rose form the dead to forgive our sins is not a fact.

    I dont exclude teaching something because it is related to Christianity. To the contrary. I think people should be better informed about the history of the bible.

    One of my favorite figures in history is Constantine I. I think everyone should know Constantine.

  • go2mark

    man did you see Jon Stewart on thurs 4/28. it was awesome when he ripped on apple.
    this guy is a comic genius.

  • HaTe_MaChInE

    @Randy - Learn to apologize less. Go with the flow and stand proud of your screwup as well as your master peaces.

  • Randy

    @Hate_machine, as he wrote:

    "One of my favorite classes I ever took was “The bible as literature” I dont think the story of romeo and Juliet are fact but I think the story should be examined at many levels..."

    Indeed. And well put. I would go further by saying that the use of language in Shakespeare and the bible and other middle Anglish documents is more than enough to justify their study.

    You also wrote, among many other fine points:

    "One of my favorite figures in history is Constantine I. I think everyone should know Constantine..."

    Yes. A very toubled, but intelligent Roman emperor, often called "The First Pope" after Peter... of course, depending on your christian tradition/cult...

    He supervised a shattered empire and finally, out of desperation, as was clearly seen in the documentary evidence, raised christianity up to be the official state religion.

    Even though he never actually believed in any christian god, or even any pagan god, he was really just playing the odds, and, unfortunately, for us, as we have been paying the price since then, our western civilization (check out what Ghandi said about that!) has suffered brutally.

    He was a remarkable figure of history...

  • Randy


    "@Randy – Learn to apologize less. Go with the flow and stand proud of your screwup as well as your master peaces."

    It's a reflex. I was trained to be ashamed and apologetic about my intellect.

    Well, that's America! Really.

  • Epicurus

    go2, i just watched it. brilliant. i do love Jon Stewart more than almost anything else on TV.

  • Randy


    I'll tell ya, I have two news sources, the BBC World News, and The Daily Show.

    That's how I roll.

  • Randy

    Addendum: I should say, two audio/video news sources. All others are written on paper...

    You know, for like really old people...

  • go2mark

    yes i have to agree, no-one comes close
    if you havnt seen it yet check out the 11/3 project aired on 11/5/09. Jon gives glen beck a reach around. i nearly sh@t myself when i saw this one.

  • Randy


    Seen it. Brilliant. I bet the Brits, when they see this stuff, must just shake their heads in stupification, as do I.

    Remeber, that in America, FOX news has millions of more, (by factors of 10!!!!) viewers per day than CNN.

    Where is the liberal bias...? I'm just sayin'...

  • go2mark

    yes Jon did a great job last friday about the brits. John oliver is awesome too.
    some of his clip i have to link to my FB page just so i can get to them quickly.
    these guys blow me away sometimes. nobody is off limits.

  • go2mark

    hey sheldon is on letterman tonight /// go figure

  • Randy

    Let me tell you a story from my earlier days as a younger man. Oh, see, I am being all old, like grandpa, and gathering the kids around for a lesson... when did I get so old? Well, read and learn if you'd like.

    In the mid 1990's, when the last home mortgage crisis hit and a recession was bad, but not as bad as the one we have been going through, and before I started my business, which is being destroyed right now by this brand new, (but very familiar), recession, I was out of work and my wife and I were struggling to survive, (kinda like now!).

    Well, I hadn't taken the bar exam or finished any of my education, (in other words, I hadn't gotten the diplomas I needed to make it in the world, being someone who jumped from subject to subject like a mental glutton at an all you can eat buffet!), but I did know people and human nature. I did know the Art of the Con and had worked with the criminal element and... other covert, shadowy enterprises, AND I had studied all of the esoterica of mysticism. Combining the two, I knew I could make people believe that I had some answers for them, and I knew I could make money at it.

    So, I put out a shingle and advertised for Tarot Readings, (Tarot being a powerful psychological language that I knew from an early age, and that was, I knew, a wonderful tool for duping people...), at home parties for groups of house-wives.

    Ok. I immediately got tons of parties booked and eventually was picking up an average of $400-1000 US a day (in 1990 US dollars!) for like two/three hours work. It was easy money. People are not as different as they like to believe from one to another, so if you know how people will react to a certain stimulus you can predict their reactions, plus there is the art of "cold reading" used by John Edwards or Chris Angel or that Blane, guy... and other con-men that I was really good at... etc. It's like that show, "The Mentalist" that my wife watches 'cause she has a crush on the Aussie guy that plays him. Whatever.... lol!

    But, like The Mentalist, I too became concerned that I was perpretrating a morally offensive fraud. Despite my acclaimed "accuracy", I knew my skills were a magic trick and I was offering cold comfort to troubled people. My crisis of ethics resulted in me contacting my subjects, telling them it was all a trick, and offering their money back. I just couldn't sleep at night knowing I had conned these poor women.

    You know what the response was to my confessions, almost unanimously? Can you guess?

    People would rather believe a comfortable lie than a hard truth. I know that, first-hand.

  • Charles B.


    I don't receive a salary when I preach and teach at the church here.

    However, there is nothing wrong with a pator getting paid for what he does. Most are underpaid in fact, but a few notable and perhaps excessive exceptions bring condemnation on the whole lot of us sometimes.

    Rick Warren when he earned as much as he did with his books repaid his entire lifetime salary back to the church for his pastoring. Imagine that.

    And what's this about Tom Cruse coming out of the "closet"? Is that even worth my time to google it?

    Epicurian_Logic: I really don't know what the king of Moab was thinking when he sacrficed his son. I'm just giving my best educated guess, but I know God's Character, so we have very different conclusions. The text was not specific as to the motive for any of their actions.

    SMM: If God is real, then why can't He talk to people if He feels like it? Who wispers in your mind? I'd hate to guess at that. Your penname is "sexmoneymonkey" and you say I have a psychological illness? Gimme a break!

  • Charles B.

    P.S. Randy: I'm proud of you for giving the money back to the people you conned. Where might you suggest your sense of "justice" and "right and wrong" if you wish came from? Why would you even have a conscience? Eveolution would more than likely think that such compassion, especially when you're raking in the bucks, was a good trait to possess.

  • Joe_nyc

    Charles, you never mentioned you were ordained to be a preacher. I remember you saying you went to a theology school and just because you attended one that doesn't automatically give you the right to preach in a church( many of my family member finished theological seminaries after finishing four years of liberal undergrad and none of them preach because they were never ordained). And please don't say God told you to preach to the unsuspecting Koreans, then I would just call you a fraud.

    But are you a preacher?

  • Joe_nyc

    I meant,

    But are you an ordained preacher?

  • Achems Razor

    @ Charles B:

    I do not know if Cruise is gay or, and, has come out of the closet, But he wanted to become a Catholic Priest. That is almost a prerequisite is it not? (LOL) You know, boys and such!

  • Randy

    Charles B. wrote:

    "P.S. Randy: I’m proud of you for giving the money back to the people you conned. Where might you suggest your sense of “justice” and “right and wrong” if you wish came from? Why would you even have a conscience? Eveolution would more than likely think that such compassion, especially when you’re raking in the bucks, was a good trait to possess..."


    Let me just say this: I was a horrible, judgmental a**hole as a christian. I am a strongly moral person as an agnostic, more probably, athiest secular humanist.

    Evolution builds into us a desire to look out for our own, various societies. It is because I see, clearly, and without the lens of superstition, that I know how beautiful and fragile our species is and that I have responsibility to do the best I can for them.

    But, I must say, people like you and Jack the Rabbit, tax me...

  • Achems Razor

    @ Joe_nyc:

    I do not know if you even have to be ordained to teach at a "fundy" church.

  • Charles B.

    Joe: Sadly, I didn't pass the vetting process when I tried out when I was 21. After six months of the process, I was rejected by my own home-church pastor who was the presbyter at the time as lacking "passion" in my Christian faith. I never tried again for ordination. That hurt me really badly, but I just have to accept that as God's will as I trusted his judgment then and now.

    To be honest, I feel a bit of a failure in this respect. I blew it. Anyway, it's water under the bridge. I was just young enough and proud enough to agree with the assessment when I was 21, but not wise enough to try again before life took it's toll on my character.

    Why? Would you listen to my opinions more or less if I were officially ordained? :-)

    Should I try again? I'm a bit old now. I'm 40. Now you've made me really sad tonight, Joe! Thanks a lot! But you didn't know.

  • Randy

    Joe_NYC wrote @Charles B.

    "But are you an ordained preacher?"

    Well I am, (an ordained minister) in many cults and religions, and I could make TONS of money with that, but as I think that would be morally reprehensible, I choose to make money by working in the real world as opposed to talking people into embracing a fantasy.

  • Charles B.

    Well, boy I'm a blue tonight now. Even Go2mark says he's a closet "evolunnie." How discouraging. I've been repressing the urge to ask you guys to "pray for me." LOL! Haven't felt this discouraged for a while.

    Tomorrow is designated an entire "daddy day" so if I log on it will be to watch youtube monster truck clips with the boy. Not topdoc comments allowed even if I wanted to.

  • Joe_nyc

    :) How old is your boy? Mine is 11.

  • John Seals

    Not getting ordained to preach is about as seriouse as not getting picked for the base ball team. Sorry they didn't let you play in thier reindeer games but but you'll have to excuse my lack of concern seeing that organized religion is the biggest evil ever visited upon mankind. Be glad they did not deem you fit to spread thier fantastic lies, maybe thier is hope yet. See in science your worth is decided on the value of your contributions, not your passion for the subject. If passion for the subject mattered i'd be Einstien. Does that not appeal to you, to be judged as to the value of your contributions insted of having to appease someones ideals? The great family of science welcomes you back to reality any time your ready charles.

  • John Seals

    Oh by the way, I hope you and your son have a great day together. I'm not be sarcastic here I think it's really cool that your spending the day with him. Kudos!!

  • SexMoneyMonkey

    "SMM: If God is real, then why can’t He talk to people if He feels like it? Who wispers in your mind? I’d hate to guess at that. Your penname is “sexmoneymonkey” and you say I have a psychological illness? Gimme a break!"

    He isn't real.
    Nobody whispers in my mind.
    I may have a comical nickname but you don't see me believing in a whole system because some book was written a few centuries ago and then turning to scientific theories which have hundreds of books along with physical evidence to support them and saying there are "missing links".

    Your lack of ability to use reasoning is merely a lack of intelligence.

    Your stubborn passion concerning a laughable belief, on the other hand, must be some sort of mental illness. I'd tell any man who believes in Santa Claus or the Toothfairy the same thing, go get help. (Although, to be fair, with Santa Claus he got presents and an authority figure explained where they came from so there is some reason to believe unlike the Christian god).

    I hope you have fun with your son. It'd be insurmountably rude to bring your family into this so I'll avoid commenting.

    If he's young though, I changed the rules for Go-Fish because my 8 year old brother needed help in math. Face cards are worth 10 and instead of trying to get pairs of the same card you try to get pairs that equal 11 (so and Ace and a King). Jacks were worth 1 as well. Had tons of fun.

  • Epicurean_Logic


    ' I really don’t know what the king of Moab was thinking when he sacrficed his son.'

    As i understand it the king if Moab was appealing to his forefathers (and possibly his own) pagan belief in human sacrifice in a time of desperation. The important part of this narrative is that the god of the Israelites and Judaeans then admonishes 'the righteous' and sends them back to their homeland without them achieving their original aforementioned goals. Thus condoning and praising the sacrificial actions.

    This is the only way that the story makes sense to me.

    i really dont want to push this idea to far on this forum as we are a Darwinists thread and they are probably getting a bit peeved with biblical analysis.

  • Chief

    Many religions depict humanity with a capacity to choose between a lower nature and an escalating higher consciousness. The lower or base nature is reflected in those attributes recognized as the seven deadly sins. The brilliance of Charles Darwin is manipulated by Europeans and other Western populations to justify Social Darwinism. In doing so, greed is elevated as a natural and inevitable by product of natural selection and the survival of the fittest paradigm. It is paralleled by religious interpretations and practices that have been used to justify racism, sexism and classism. The biases and bigotry of men in positions of power and control foment an analysis and synthesis of good intentions that attempts to maintain the 16th century stratification of human diversity; always maintaining the supremacy of white men.

  • John seals

    Rubish!! Natural selection does not shape our greed, human nature does. If any thing the fact that man has risen to his evolutionary posistion through thought and not violence it follows natural selection simply favored the smarter thinkers, which are not the guys out committing genecide or screwing the rest of mankind financially- These actions are actually counter productive toward the survival of our species as a whole, you do understand that evolution works at the species level right not for the individual possesing the mutation- I mean it does act upon individuals but it is only successfull if it promotes the survival of the whole species. Who do you think is more likely to pass on thier genes some mild mannered well payed geek or some genecidal prick. I'll answer that for you, in todays world the geek is more likely to pass on his genes and so are his children. You bleeding hearts can call it what ever you want natural selection, evil, or human nature it is what is, and in science we tend to talk about the reality insted of what we think should be. Get over it natural selection is real and presently shaping the progress of every living thing on earth- You want we should not talk about it? Ignoring the truth doesn't make it not true.

  • i doubt it

    Creationists have long cited the Second Law of Thermodynamics as an anti-evolution argument. The Second Law, or the Law of Increasing Entropy, operates throughout the universe, as far as we can tell, and has never been seen to be violated, in time or space.

    The Law was first discovered and quantified in the field of energy transfer, or thermodynamics, but its corollaries have now been recognized in “every” field, including information theory. Truly it is a universal law, which applies to every situation.

    But what does it mean? Entropy is a measure of the state of randomness or disorder in a system. While the total amount of energy remains the same at all times, the usefulness of that energy spontaneously degrades as the process proceeds--i.e., its entropy increases. For instance, the highly ordered molecules in wood are altered when it burns (oxidizes), with the complex hydrocarbon molecules breaking apart into less complex atoms and recombining, producing carbon dioxide and less useful heat energy. Heat can be used for a while, but it quickly cools and dissipates. Things are becoming less ordered and less energetic all the time. On the surface, this is the opposite of evolution, which states that things have become more complex through time, as molecules evolved into people.

    Evolutionists deny these implications by noting that things sometimes spontaneously become more ordered, like ice crystals from water, or when plants grow from a seed. They often claim that an open system with plenty of incoming energy can decrease the entropy of a system, at the expense of the source system. True enough, an open system and excess energy are necessary conditions, but are they sufficient? There are other specific requirements that must be met for order to naturally arise from disorder. In a plant, it is surely an open system and there is plenty of energy available from the sun, but more is needed.

    First, there must an energy conversion mechanism already present to convert the raw energy into useful forms. In the plant, the marvelous mechanism of photosynthesis must pre-exist the plant or the abundant incoming energy cannot be utilized. In fact, unbridled solar energy will kill a plant; it must be converted into useful forms before the plant can use it. It fuels the plant’s activities and growth. Photosynthesis is as yet incompletely understood by today’s scientists, and it certainly did not create itself. But the plant already possesses this ability and passes it on to each generation.

    Second, there must be a plan in place to direct this now-useful energy into useful work. In living things, the marvelously complicated DNA code contains that plan. Nothing random here. This code is copied and maintained using just the right form of energy. But the machines that manufacture those energy molecules are specified by the code. Which came first, the fuel to copy the code or the code for the fuel's manufacture?

    Though cellular machines operate according to thermodynamics, the laws of thermodynamics preclude their origin by random mutation and natural selection.

    Evolutionary innovation is thought to occur through unguided mutation and natural selection. How many random tries would it take to either devise a complicated process (like photosynthesis) or write a complex code (like DNA)? Both must be present for life to function and continue. But compare the fact that they already exist and function, guiding the plant through its life cycle, to the evolutionary hope that they can self-generate. The entropy law forbids them to simply appear when the need arises. An open system and raw energy are insufficient.

    Thus, evolution violates a basic law of science. A universal tendency toward randomness dominates, and the requirements for overcoming its implications are not met by nature. They are met by intelligence of a surpassing level far exceeding ours.

  • Charles B.


    You wrote:

    As i understand it the king if Moab was appealing to his forefathers (and possibly his own) pagan belief in human sacrifice in a time of desperation. The important part of this narrative is that the god of the Israelites and Judaeans then admonishes ‘the righteous’ and sends them back to their homeland without them achieving their original aforementioned goals. Thus condoning and praising the sacrificial actions.

    This is the only way that the story makes sense to me.

    The fact of the matter is that no reason is given for the actions of the king of Moab using his eldest son for a burnt offering nor for the reactions of those coming against him. To be clear, however, no one was "righteous" in this situation except maybe the king of Judah who was persuaded to join the king of Israel in this particular campaign. The king of Israel was a wicked man and without the favor of God before and after this time in history. He was not "righteous".

    God provides a miracle of provision of water for the king of Judah's sake through the prophet Elisha, and perhaps for Elisha's sake only as he was considered (rightfully so) to be the spokesmen for God at that time.

    It was never God's instructions for the King of Israel to attack Moab at this time, so when the kings of Edom and Judah became so disgusted with the situation, they turned back. Why? It's any one's guess, but mine is probably the most accurate. We don't know if later the king of Israel later made the King of Moab a vassal king again or not, but I suspect he did, but the point is not important.

    It is fallacious in logic to assume that the "god" of "the righteous", as you put it, was the one one in indignation against Israel because of the King of Moab's sacrifice. It just states that Judah and Edom left the King of Israel after that in anger, but not that God turned their hearts against the king of Israel because of the sacrifice of the King of Moab being acceptable to Him (assumed in your argument).

    But, back to the heart of the main post: this is not an example of the sectioning of human sacrifice by God. If human sacrifice was sanctioned by God, there would have been specific instructions and commandments to follow like all of his instructions for animal sacrifice, and even grain offerings. That fact that no such commandments are ever given is a tacit understanding that it was a forbidden practice, not a commanded one by God at this time.

    Peace to you!

    Charles B.

  • Charles B.

    E-L: Sorry, my division between your quote and my thoughts got lost when I posted. I hope people can figure out when one stops and the other starts!

    Joe: My boy's only 3. Really smart kid. My girl's 1.

    John Seals: You have your dreams and I have mine. Not being accepted for ordination is a little more important that not being picked for a baseball game. But, in my heart, I know it's God that promotes or doesn't at different times in a person's life, so even though I'm still a bit disappointed, I have hope of still doing God's will outside of official ordination. In fact, the church I preach and teach at now is a different denomination than my homechurch(es) in other places. I'd not have that freedom if I were ordained officially most likely. God still knows best and still do I trust Him.


  • Charles B.

    Sexmoneymonkey: Oh. So, you're name is "comical", eah? All this time I thought you were listing your personal "vices", and not the least of which, "monkey" has always disturbed me! I'm curious enough to ask, "What were you thinking!?!" :-)


  • Achems Razor

    @ Charles B:

    Howdy, Charles, you say I need faith to believe in evolution, au-contraire! all I need is common sense.
    Evolution is something tangible, at least at minimum a theory, not a belief system, where nothing is tangible as in religion.

    Oh please, don't hit me with the Sid Roth stuff again! You know how much I "don't" enjoy listening to him. I'd rather eat live Tarantulas!

    I do not know what you mean by "God" pulling back to test or strengthen your faith. Is it the same as "God" put the dinosaur bones to test your (the) faith?

    Spiritual realm? I have studied that. Eastern religions, Esoteric, and even New Age that is so abhorrent to the religious, is it because New Age basically says we are all "God's" and make the reality?
    And even Quantum physics says we make the reality, as you know that is something I lean towards, but even that is all mathematical construct so far. Not tangibly proven as yet.

    Now keep in mind, have said that Those things were studied only.

    Clarify also what you mean that God" allows to see into the spiritual realm, basically that means to me esoteric. Like Voodoo you mean? (LOL)

    Awaiting your reply...Peace.

  • Charles B.

    No, not like voodoo; that's entirely a different souce of spiritual insight and power. Dinosaurs existed, of course, just not sure how long ago or why. Their existence has nothing to do with a "test" from God. Wish they weren't all extinct.

  • Charles B.

    P.S. Hearing God's voice is a spiritual discernment. Even if I tried to define it more precisely, you guys would just mock me. Not into that today.


  • Epicurus

    we certainly do know when dinosaurs existed....

    saying that is like saying we dont know how far away the Andromeda galaxy is.

    you clearly dont ACCEPT the science that stats clearly when the dinosaurs lived, therefore YOU say your not sure. well let me make it very clear

    Dinosaurs lived throughout the Mesozoic Era, which began 245 million years ago and lasted for 180 million years.

    tada now you know. and if you want to know how we know what the dates of the finds are you can check here....(im sure you wont)

    snakefly . tripod . com / Date . html

  • Randy

    @Charles B.

    Charles, I just want to say this. I have been thinking on my past treatment of you for a while and I don't feel very good about it.

    I do not suffer f**ls (that word my stick me in moderation) well in my life, but when I eviscerate them, I never feel good about it, (and when I say "f**ls" I do not mean to imply that you are one, that is a generic term for people I see as f**ls in everyday life. In fact I do NOT see you as a f**l, at all; just desperate to cling to an idea that you feel gives you comfort.).

    My whole position on this issue, and the reason I deal with your religion with anger is simply because, in my country, you all seem to be so desperate to change the laws to make me be one of you, or, at the least, make it illegal to NOT act like one of you. You seem to want to impose your idea of morality onto a Constitution that was never meant to bear it.

    Not YOU personally, of course, but the movement you represent. So, to me, anyone that affiliates themselves with that ideology gets my scorn and contempt.

    I do not have any problem with those that practice whatever religion or philosophical belief they wish in private, but when they feel they can, or have the right to, inflict that on others... I find that repugnant.

    Let US go to hell the way we want to, and you go to whatever heaven you imagine.

    But, that can't happen, can it? Because your bible admonishes you to witness and save souls. Well, that's my whole issue with the books...

    I respect you, but your religion is dangerous and harmful to humanity.

  • Randy

    OH, and the idea that you seem to want to drag us all back into the Dark Ages. Well, I've studied the Dark Ages, and as I would have been burned at the stake a long time ago if we were there, I would rather NOT, thank you.

    If YOU want to live there, fine. Be like the Amish, which I said earlier was a sect I admire. Keep to yourself, leave us alone to study science.

    But mostly, leave us alone to study science.

    Won't you?

  • McGarvey

    @ Randy
    (Hello again)

    That's what I really can't understand about fundamental Christianity in America - they all proclaim to be such patriots but are actively working to erode the separation of church and state enshrined in your constitution. One of the founding principles of the USA! If I have to hear one more Christian on a doc saying "this is a Christian country" I will scream. The USA is manifestly NOT a Christian country - I know that and I don't even live there! I can't imagine what it would be like to be a sensible person living in the US today - it would scare the b'jesus out of me.(pun intended)

    @ Achem's Razor and Charles B.

    If you want to see into the spirit realm and/or hear the word of God I recommend magic mushrooms.

  • McGarvey

    @ Randy

    Again with the Amish - you're obsessed mate! ;)

  • Charles B.

    Randy: Thanks. Sorta. This is a great (but spiritually dangerous) time we live in; the dark ages were well named, I think. No desire to return there anytime soon. But if I didn't give a da-mn (pun intented) or who I truly believe could be da-mned I wouldn't even bother; at least you know I care.

    You should watch the Jerassic doc I just watched. It was interesting despite my chides at all its "assumptions". There is a lot for people of faith to consider as well.


  • Randy


    LOL!!! You've never had their tomatoes!!!

    And, about your comments on the US... you are in Scotland... how is it you understand so well? *boggle*

  • SexMoneyMonkey

    @Charles B

    No idea what I was thinking when I come up with the name. My three favourite things? :P

    As for us mocking you, I hope you realize it's nothing personal it's just that your beliefs are laughable at best and revealing of a dangerous mental illness at worst.

    You believe something over science because of some ridiculous book from centuries ago. It's about as foolish as you can get.

  • Epicurus

    @CharlesB, im sure you mean Jurassic, and could you point out ONE assumption and explain why you believe it to be an assumption?

  • Randy

    Charles B. wrote:

    "...the dark ages were well named, I think..."

    Charles, the "Dark Ages" were named that by men and women of the enlightenment period subsequent and during the Renaisance. To your people the Dark Ages were the "enlightenment".

    Is what I'm sayin'...

  • Epicurean_Logic

    Randy & Charles.B

    There is a lot of evidence to suggest that 'the dark ages' or the islamic age as i like to call it, were not as dark as we are made to believe!

    They were only dark in christian europe. the islamic empire was blossoming at this time, evidenced by the incredible art,math and architecture exibited at Toledo and Granada in Spain.

    for a more indepth account there is a nice doc here on TDF called 'when the moors ruled in europe '(p.4/8 history section).and 'an islamic history of europe'(p.7/8 history).


  • Randy


    Yes, that's true. In fact it was Nostradamus' knowledge of Islamic medicine that, many believe, brought about a recindance of the "Black Death". In essence, Islamic medicine was superior.

    In fact, others go further to propose that it is this Islamic superiority in the 7th(+) century, (of which you write), that fuels the jihadists motivations of the fundamentalist muslims, (but not ALL muslims--- most are descent people...).

    In that, they seek the time of the "Caliphates" in which they were the "Golden Age" of civilization when Europe was dying.

    Much like the high school jock longs to return to the time when he was glorious, but now is just a fat, balding, insurance salesman with a fat wife and a 2000 dollar a week strip club habit.

    But, I feel you are splitting hairs... I was speaking generally about dragging us away from knowledge. Without adding China, (much superior to both), Japan or Meso-America into the mix.

  • Randy

    Oh... or Norway nor any of the great Scandinavian peoples, or the Aboriginal peoples of Australia which had some chops... I mean, the Dark Ages really only apply to Europe.

  • McGarvey

    @ Randy

    America sneezes and the rest of the world catches a cold so it's important to know what's happening there. (Also I think we get a lot more foreign news in Europe - I've been to the US twice and was deeply shocked at how parochial the news reports on TV were!) I do find it worrying the political and economic clout that this Evangelical mob has in the most powerful country on Earth - and I believe their numbers are rising! They are also quite open about their aim of "taking America back as a Christian nation" (or overthrowing the Constitution as I like to think of it). I might be a bit hysterical but I fear we could see an American Taliban at some point! Talking of which, have you seen the Adam Curtis documentary 'The power of nightmares' in which he parallels the history of the Neo-Conservative movement in America with the development of radical Islam in the middle East - fascinating (but I do love Curtis' work).

    @ Epicurean_Logic

    Yes, you're spot on the Islamic world was flourishing during this period. I was lucky enough to visit the Alhambra in Granada last year - absolutely stunning architecture! If you ever get the chance go!

  • Randy

    Oh, well I guess Norway and the great Scandinavian peoples are part of Europe, but Europians of the time might not agree. I hope you all get that.

    (See, they (Norse and Vikings) were barbarians... except for the ones that accepted British noble titles, etc... Look! It gets complicated! There were politics and the Anglish, and they stole all the Irish potatoes!)

    You know what I meant by Dark Ages!

  • Randy


    I am reading and re-reading your post which is very important and I will comment on it in a moment... let me collect my thoughts....

    Your insights are... enlightening, powerful... thought provoking...

  • Charles B.

    Epic: Cute. You may be intelligent Epicurus, but not very socially gracious. For the great "Jurassic" with a "u" Mystery doc, the scientist assumed they had the answers before they examined the fossils, looking for proof of their theories. Did you watch that particular documentary yet? Whole ape-men have been formed from pig's teeth in the past by "experts". I'm not all that impressed with a leg bone "bulge" or a "groove" on a jaw bone fragment to prove a theory. I thought by the lead-up they had found thousands of "missing-links" of every kind! There may be some truth mixed in with the assumptions such as the purposed climate of the time and the separation of the continents, etc. but the sudden spring and divergence of life due to evolution being "jump started" as they say (just add water) is highly assumptive and not borne out by any fossils found.

    I'm still working on the concept, but my dad says the age of the dinosaurs were before the time of the creation of Adam and Eve, and the earth is indeed quite old, making any arguments against Creationism by using the old earth scenario mute. I'm not entirely sure of either his understanding nor the "Young Earther's" understanding. It's still under investigation. Your website didn't really tell how they know when the half life of a particular element is established. Could they be basing their assumptions from particular fossils, perhaps?

    Randy/Epic_Logic: I could research the Dark Ages, but an oppressive Catholic church is not a Godly church; it's no "golden age" of any sorts for true Christians if that is what you are trying to allude to. That's still yet to be, thankfully.

    SMM: If I were really mentally ill, how short-sighted of you to keep badgering the mentally ill about being mentally ill! I think it's just your way of "pushing my buttons"

  • Epicurean_Logic

    @ Randy lol you should get into comedy buddy. Another Randy gem to add to my list,

    'a 2000 dollar a week strip club habit.' sighs... if only.

    @McGarvey definitely on my holiday wish list. Toledo too.

  • Randy

    I wrote @McGarvey:

    "And, about your comments on the US… you are in Scotland… how is it you understand so well? *boggle*"

    He wrote in response:

    "America sneezes and the rest of the world catches a cold so it’s important to know what’s happening there. (Also I think we get a lot more foreign news in Europe – I’ve been to the US twice and was deeply shocked at how parochial the news reports on TV were!)"

    Randy answers:

    In reference to that profound statement I would ask you, if the economy of Scotland, which I had heard in the last several years had been in serious trouble, had been further hurt by the USA'a recent troubles? I hope not and I hope you are doing well! (Also, I only watch BBC World News for any real news...)

    McGarvey also wrote:

    "I do find it worrying the political and economic clout that this Evangelical mob has in the most powerful country on Earth – and I believe their numbers are rising! They are also quite open about their aim of “taking America back as a Christian nation” (or overthrowing the Constitution as I like to think of it). I might be a bit hysterical but I fear we could see an American Taliban at some point!"

    So do I. If that makes us hysterical, I think it is fairly good reason to be. I see it all around me and I have read, and experienced in real life, the book "The Family' which talks about a christian group that has been influencing American politics for almost 70 years and its true power has been rising steadily since the Reagan years. Leanr about it yourselves, make your own opinion.


    McGarvey also, also wrote:

    "Talking of which, have you seen the Adam Curtis documentary ‘The power of nightmares’ in which he parallels the history of the Neo-Conservative movement in America with the development of radical Islam in the middle East – fascinating (but I do love Curtis’ work)."


    I love Curtis' work as well, there are two of his docs on this site, "Pandora's Box" and "The Century of Self". Is "The Power of Nightmare" on this site as well? (I will do a search, but only AFTER I post this, so....)

  • Randy

    Charles B. wrote:

    "Randy/Epic_Logic: I could research the Dark Ages, but an oppressive Catholic church is not a Godly church; it’s no “golden age” of any sorts for true Christians if that is what you are trying to allude to. That’s still yet to be, thankfully."

    The bible as you know it, was wholly informed, written, and translated by that oppressive catholic church. Everything you know about jesus came from them. There was much that happened before them, but you will never really know it about that, they made sure of it. (Research: The Bloody Borgias, dynasty of popes...)

    So... you are not as un-catholic as you like to think, honey!

  • Randy


    "The Power of Nightmares" is on this sight and I watched the intro. It reminds me of the Michael Crichton book "State of Fear" which I thought was his worst novel, but, very, very informative, (it would have been better as a text book, frankly), and I have subsequently studied the many concepts as detailed in the book. (Now, THAT was a pompous sentence!)

    With very few exceptions, he seems to have been right on the money; he being the foremost researcher of our generation.

    Anyways, back to the doc...

  • eireannach666

    @Randy Those fog breathers took more than a few potatoes.But they gave us more fuel for the fire. Up the Ra!Slainte.Also, I think we all see whats going on, its just the majority of people in the US got their nose up "gods" behind that they think "god" will fix everything ( and elsewhere ), when instead it will do quite the opposite. If the majority would pay attention , the belief in "god" has caused more death and division amongst man-kind than anything else.( For some reason it makes each religion wear a different silly hat.) Religin is nothing more than dirty superstitious politics .With an unlimited bank roll and too much power. Whatever happened to the seperation of church and state? Maybe that went out with land of the free and justice for all.(all meaning those of us wou can afford it - I guess thats what they meant ?)

  • McGarvey

    @ eireannach666

    Tiocfaidh ár lá

  • eireannach666

    @McGarvey It will indeed .Slainte.

  • Randy

    eireannach666 wrote:

    "@Randy Those fog breathers took more than a few potatoes..."

    Yes, my brother, I understand the history of our people, and the Anglish. There is no bad blood for me anymore, I kid the Anglish because it's fun and I love.

    Alot of Anglo/Americans don't understand that the famine didn't cause starvation because we were "living" on potatoes, but because we worked on the potato farms... FOR THE ANGLISH. When the famine hit, we simply lost our jobs.

    The Anglish, (and I spell it like that because that's how it sounds when a Son of Erin speaks it...), took all of our other resources, so we had no other choice but to leave for America.

    When we came to America, starving and homeless wrecks as we were, the Irish that were already here, who had become mayors, policeman, fireman, and other established Americans, called themselves "Scots-Irish" to seperate themselves from the filthy immigrants from the famine that were unwanted by protestant America. (A sad commentary on our own people...)

    But the Civil War cured that. Because no one fights better than we Irish, (except, maybe the Scottish), and more famine-Irish died in the war than other nationalities, besides the African-American, (which is overlooked by history, I wonder why...?)

    After the war, we were given the respect we earned and took over Boston, (the greatest American city because it is run by Irish, [J/K], but I LOVE Boston, so...).

    And only a few years later we had the Presidency, (JFK, one of my heroes...)

    Some oversimplifications, but a short history of Irish in America.

  • McGarvey

    @ Charles B.

    A 'theory' in scientific parlance means much more than a fact. It is not the hypothesis of evolution. Evolution in layman's terms is a FACT. The DNA evidence alone is absolutely overwhelming, never mind the myriad of other evidence. Do you question the theory of gravitation?

  • McGarvey

    @ Randy

    Well I'm Scots/Irish (McGarvey is Irish name) so don't challenge me to a fight (or a drinking competition!) ;)
    I'm glad the power of nightmares is on here but it's a sad fact that it only has 6 comments when bullsh*t like Kymatica (stumbled upon it by accident - it was like a car crash - knew I should stop looking but couldn't) has 260 comments! On a site for people who are interested in documentary!!
    Oh and aye, we've taken a big hit to the economy in the UK (as well as rest of Europe and the whole world for that matter). We had to bail out banks as well! And they still have the cheek to charge you if you go 1 penny over your limit !

  • Randy

    @My Gealic brothers:

    I wrote, "nobody fights better than the Irish, (except maybe the Scottish)..."

    Well, to be fair, the Scottish threw off the yoke of the Anglish long before we Irish did, so... I tip my cap at ye!


  • eireannach666

    @Randy "Potatoe famine"is the most misused term I hear when discussing that issue. Glad to know some of us get the meaning. I was just taking a shot ole mother England. At one point and time we couldn't get a job or eat in a restaurant , but soon we had the White House.Oh , and great point about the cival war.I have a theory on that but it would come off a little racist to some.However, nobody wanted a fair crack at the Brits more than us.Even to this day the IRA/RIRAis still alive and well.Dont forget about the people who died in the hunger strike not too long ago before the "cease fire."Bobby Sands etc.Bad times.But every race of people have all had similar times of war,torture,slavery etc.Arent we humans a strange species ? Still , we survive. -- King George of England , searh evey kingdom who can breed a slave , look out for Erie , those boys of Wexford.etc. You reminded me of an old song.The name escape me though.Ill have to dig into my Clancy Brother albums. Thanks for bringing it to thought.

  • Randy

    There was a comedian in the 90's that cracked me up, but he pretty much summed up the mis-conception of the "potato-famine" that most Anglo/Americans have, (it's racist against Irish, but we can laugh at oursleves and if you can't do that, then just pack it in.):

    "The st**pidest people I know are the Irish. Millions of them died because their potatoes withered in the fields... Seriously? Potatoes aren't even an entre... more of a side dish, really. Isn't Ireland an island? Didn't anyone think of sticking a fishing pole off the side..."

    Even knowing the truth, I laughed at that. (Anyone thinking he has a point look at my post some four posts above!)

  • Epicurus

    I'm actually very sociable and I suppose you could say "popular". I'm certainly well liked and considered a nice empathetic person. Although I do understand that people are OVERLY sensitive and defensive when it comes to protecting their beliefs and perceiving them as being rudely attacked...however that is also a sign of lack of reasoning and evidence for your position.

    you said:

    the scientist assumed they had the answers before they examined the fossils, looking for proof of their theories.

    scientists observe something and make an hypothesis (EDUCATED GUESS) about how or what that object is or where it came from etc. and then they put those "assumptions" to different TESTS....MANY MANY TESTS. all done by different people. these people have NO vested interest in their hypothesis being correct. in fact if it is wrong and they show it to be wrong they are given grants.

    so yes we start with assumptions..why does it rain? well it rain when the clouds are dark, therefore the clouds are the cause...buthow does the water get up there...well water turns to steam when heated and we can see it go into the air so MAYBE that is how clouds are formed and how it all starts with an assumption, but an EDUCATED one. and all these assumptions i made are absolutely testable and falsfiable. I could easily have said it rains because angels cry...but that wouldnt be testable or verifiable. I could also have stated that killing virgins in fire helps it least that would be testable.

    do you get it? do you NOW understand what is going on?

    you then - PROUDLY - announce your ignorance about anatomy and biology by saying scientists just find a bulge or a groove in a fossil and make up the answers, actually you said:

    Whole ape-men have been formed from pig’s teeth in the past by “experts”. I’m not all that impressed with a leg bone “bulge” or a “groove” on a jaw bone fragment to prove a theory.

    yes, you refer to the famous Piltdown man...oh boy you creationists are so predictable...Piltdown man was a hoax perpetrated by ONE man in 1912, who was shown to be a fraud by....wait for it....SCIENTISTS!!! when he presented his findings, science took over and did what it does best, and that is determine the validity of this was found to be a because we have a couple hoaxes by people trying to get their name out there, that means all finds are a fraud?

    and when you scoff at the idea of biologists formulating the skeleton when they only have parts of it you are being so insanely rude it isn't funny...those people have gone to school for what they do for well over 6 years...I'm pretty sure they are aware of what they are doing. if you saw a part of a car and were a car nut you would be able to tell me almost all about that car.

    the jump in evolution is due to fossil finds...a cornucopia of amazing transitional fossils explode on the scene right around the time the dinosaurs disappear. anyone here with the slightest education in biology would understand why.

    and I had a knee jerk reaction to want to be very very mean when you claimed we jut assume the half life of items...I will explain this to you...but my advice to you would be...STOP WHATEVER YOU ARE DOING IN YOUR LIFE AND GO BACK TO SCHOOL.

    now half-life of different elements:

    There are various rules for how many molecules there are in a given volume or a given mass. Having identified the elements in the material and the path of radioactive decay, it is possible to measure the radiation and determine the half life. For example, suppose an element Xi breaks down into elements Ya and Za and in the process gives off an Alpha particle. If I create a pure sample of Xi, or use spectrograph analysis so I know its percentage in a sample and I determine that in the sample there are 1,000,000 atoms. I measure the radioactivity and find that every second on average there is one alpha particle emitted, then I would calculate that the half life is 500,000 seconds because that is how long it would take half the molecules to break down. (about 5.78 days). Actually, the calculations are normally done with more complicated mixtures and a variety of reactions going on.

  • Randy


    Refresh my memory, because I was talking about this idea this weekend and I couldn't remember the details, (I gots the old man disease, real hard!), and, as always, I prefer to learn from a real person as opposed to using the google robot.

    You wrote about:

    "yes, you refer to the famous Piltdown man…oh boy you creationists are so predictable…Piltdown man was a hoax perpetrated by ONE man in 1912, who was shown to be a fraud by….wait for it….SCIENTISTS!!! when he presented his findings, science took over and did what it does best, and that is determine the validity of this find…it was found to be a hoax…so because we have a couple hoaxes by people trying to get their name out there, that means all finds are a fraud?"

    Was that the one that somehow involved Sir Arthur Conan Doyle? I remember that, although he was a Spiritualist and an occultist of some kind, (he believed in Edgar Cayce and fairies), he did hate christianity and he desperately wanted Darwin to be right, (so that it would discredit the bible), so he either funded or simply backed-up with his celebrity, (the details, I believe, are unknown), the Piltdown man, which of course was a hoax.

    The important message is that it was found out by SCIENCE, even though it was purpertrated by celebrity and a guy that... I really admire, despite his craziness...

    What can I say, I was always a rabid Sherlock Holmes fan!

    The important thing is SCIENCE saw through to the truth!

    The other part of Charles' (and many others, to be fair...) argument is how can they reconstruct so much information from so little bone. Well, talk to a really qualified medical examiner, or forensic pathologist, they can tell pages of information on a few bones. Including: cause of death, ethnicity, age, sex, height, weight, sometimes occupation, diet (based on dentician and bone density), location of birth, (based on bone carbon/flourocarbon/toxin absorption), and the list can go on and on.

    It really is an exact science.

  • Randy

    Oh, and for the record, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and Houdini did NOT hit it off. Why? Because, although Doyle was anti-christian, he still believed in other Spiritual nonsense.

    Houdini was a rationalist and debunked people like Doyle.

    Houdini was the first, Great Athiest Free Thinker of the early 20th century, I think. At least, my hero of that time and title. (There were others but they weren't as cool as he was. Have you seen any of his silent films? Mind blowing!)

  • Randy

    Well, it seems I didn't need the internet at all. My memory was adequate to the task. In fact, yes, Piltdown man was exactly as I suspected-- as confirmed by two books in my collection.

    Using the internet, makes the brain lazy. (This is just a diversion for me, like watching TV or a baseball game...)

    Just because you graduate, never means your homework is over.

    On my deathbed, I will have several books open and I will be scrawling notes until the doctor calls the code...

  • Achems Razor

    @ McGarvey:

    Magic mushrooms you say?

    Well, I beat you to it, have brought up magic mushrooms for about one year on TDF docs. Namely "Amanita Muscaria" which I stated gave religious epiphanies, could have been a religion starter.

    I enjoy your blogs by the way...Peace.

  • Randy

    Epicurus wrote:

    "lol @ i doubt it trying to use thermodynamics to disprove evolution…wow…did you just get to the debate? are you new to this? do you think thermodynamics has never been brought up?"

    He also wrote:

    "we certainly do know when dinosaurs existed….

    saying that is like saying we dont know how far away the Andromeda galaxy is."


    He was writing those things (and others) in response to some christians trying to use science AGAINST science, even as they do NOT understand science...

    I have bumped against this all of my life. The cognitive dissonance of it is so severe, I often feel like I have suffered some intellectual whiplash.

    Like, my brain is spinning on its stem. Leave the science to us, sweethearts! We scientists and scientist wannabe's (like we actually do have some experience in these areas. And I have experience in both and I can see the best field.

    Come join us, or don't, but leave us alone, either way.

  • Hardy

    Randy: I just had to LOL. Seriously, you may say you are a 'wannabe-scientist', but you sure have a talent for writing.

  • Randy

    Thank you, Hardy. That humbles me, because I enjoy your quick grasp of concepts as well.

    Thank you.

  • Epicurus

    bah! moderation!!! im going to flip out about this moderation setting vlatko hahaha

    lets try this again, and i will leave the swearing out.

    Randy wrote: “Come join us, or don’t, but leave us alone, either way.”

    this is perfect.

    Richard Dawkins said it absolutely best here

    youtube . com / watch?v=Tc5JXbyw1C0

  • Randy

    Epicurus wrote:

    "notice the power of nationalism though…go2mark and randy stopped attacking one another pretty quickly as soon as they realized they both had same ancestors….maybe one day people (if they finally accept the fact of evolution) will realize that our connection as human beings and even more, as living beings all evolved from the same hardy single cell is more important than the imaginary friend we use to make sense out of this nonsense.

    HA doubt it."

    He just crystalized there, many of the points I tried to make, many times over, about the power of "Unification" that science can have on the human species.

    I am a moral man, because I acknowledge that we are the same, all of us. Knowledge leads me to see that. Religion divides us.

    But as he says, cynically, "HA doubt it..." I agree.

    I have seen too much of the human animal to think that we "evolved" will win the day. So, I stay at home, now, and read and write and take notes from smart people like you and all the other great minds on this site and around the world.

    I hope, but I remain realistic...

  • Randy

    Earlier I wrote a little boring story of which this was the ending:

    "I... became concerned that I was perpretrating a morally offensive fraud. Despite my acclaimed 'accuracy', I knew my skills were a magic trick and I was offering cold comfort to troubled people. My crisis of ethics resulted in me contacting my subjects, telling them it was all a trick, and offering their money back. I just couldn’t sleep at night knowing I had conned these poor women.

    You know what the response was to my confessions, almost unanimously? Can you guess?"

    No one stepped up to answer directly so I will fill in the rest here, as I think it is important...

    Almost to the person, they said to me, some variation of, "You have real powers, you just don't realize it. You think it is a trick but it is real..." Even as I begged them to please take their money back, FOR THIER CHILDREN, even, they wouldn't.

    SO, I gave the money I couldn't give back, to THEM, to charity.

    This is an important lesson about the human animal.

    And, so I wrote at the end of the story:

    "People would rather believe a comfortable lie than a hard truth. I know that, first-hand."

  • mcgyver

    lol @ richard dawkins. He said in part 3 that he believe that Napoleon exist even though he didn't see Napoleon. But then he said God doesn't exist simply because he hasn't seen God.

    He said that he believed in science and science is not limited by what we can see with our own eyes in one lifetime. But then by saying God doesn't exist, he is claiming that because he doesn't see God in his lifetime, then therefore there is absolutely no chance that someone in the past has seen or hear God.

    Anybody else see this double standard? What a confused atheist.

    I myself believe that nature and science and even evolution are proof of the wonder and awesomeness of a Creator.

  • Randy

    Um... is steam coming out of anyone else's ears as a result of "mcgyver's" post?

    My brain is spinning on its stem again...

  • mcgyver

    dawkins (and other atheists like randy here) is using evolution to promote himself and his personal believe of atheism. Evolution true or false got nothing to do with God. Cmon atheist, explain to me what is the relationship between evolution and God. Explain the logic that lead you to say because living beings on earth evolves therefore it absolutely means there is no creator, please do explain to me.

  • Randy


    That is a good Irish name, (possible Scottish, also good). It's also the name of a guy on some TV show, whatever...

    Give me a minute to dig up some stuff from some of my other posts on other threads. I will try to be patient with you...

    (Epicurus! Epicurean_logic! HaTe_MaChine! others... Save me!)

    I'll be right back, mcgyver.... hehe...

  • Randy

    @mcgyver (really?)

    I wrote in another thread:

    "I see where some of you are going wrong. The idea that there could be some UNKNOWABLE intelligence, some Prime Mover that we can’t possibly fathom, is not dis-agreeable to me. As long as it leaves me alone…

    But you guys, maybe didn’t get the “memo”. The Intelligent Design “Movement”, as an activist group that keeps bringing these lawsuits, is, in actuality, a mask for dyed-in-the-wool, jesus loving, bible thumping, born-agian christian fundamentalists. I mean, they don’t just want “some intelligent creation” they want pure Book of Genesis creation taught in schools. The ID label is a way to lend them legitemacy, bring in christy “scientists”, and skirt the law.

    I might not have much of an objection to a teacher saying, “well, evolution COULD have been all guided by some intelligence… but…” I DO have major objections on every level to THE BIBLE story being taught alongside evolution. That’s just insanity and against the law.

    I mean, in the 80’s I got into the work of Dr. James Lovelocke’s “Gaia Hypothesis” which embraced the idea that the Earth was a living organism made up of trillions of organisms, as our own bodies are. And he went further to propose it may have a kind intelligence and could be guiding the process. It’s a great theory for Earth Goddess worshippers and some Native American traditions. But, I realized that his theories might SEEM observable but certainly not testable, and therefore worthy of only speculation and late night, drunken, roundtable discussions with friends."

    OK, I'll give you another one in a minute...

  • Randy

    And another reason that god isn't necessary or interesting to thinking people:

    I wrote:

    "I was, (and still am, I suppose, since I own every book he ever published and still re-read many of them from time to time), a big follower of the great psychodelic philosopher, Robert Anton Wilson.

    He was really into, unfortunately, the whole Quantum Theory as an explanation for mystical consiousness thing, long before Wayne Dwyer and Deepak. His saving grace was that he wanted everyone to be agnostic about it. Indeed, he talked about being agnostic about EVERYTHING, your neighbor, your car, your dog, the government, religion, pizza, the world, everything… he espoused the idea that the brain was the only way we can interpret the universe, and the brain is by nature, faulty, therefore our senses were faulty… and on and on, like that.

    He rolled with the old Zen paradox, “There is but one Truth; and that is there is no Truth” (paraphrased slightly). No absolute truth; as absolute truth was impossible to achieve with a few pounds of meat in your skull.

    The problem with that is, it’s not very productive! If you get really sucked into that stoner logic, you wind up sitting around in the lotus position your whole life like a Zen monk, and you’ll NEVER get laid! (LOL!)

    While there is SOME truth to that concept, my interpretation of it, as I matured in life, was the same that I applied to business. You bet on the long odds.

    My personal philosophy is, put your chips on the most likely bet. If it’s true that we can’t know Absolute Truth, (whatever that means), then you go for the most likely to pay off. Science has proved itself, time and time again, for hundreds, if not thousands of years, the best bet.

    Religion, apparently, only pays off after death… The personal stories of wonderful, lifechanging experiences with The Lord, notwithstanding, because they are subjective. I’ve known people say the same things when “The Lord” was Satan, Earth Gods, Crishna, and most ecstatically, Scientology. Those guys really say their lives are SUPER, thanks for asking!!!

    Given that, I want the thing that will really pay off in THIS life, understanding that evidence shows that there is NOTHING waiting for me after death. Can’t be sure of that? Correct. But the BEST BET is, nothing after. So make this one count.

    Bottom line: sure, there is a 2-5% chance that the bible is true, (if it is, I’ll tell the monster-overlord in that horrible book how much I hate his perverted ass, and go to hell happily with both my middle fingers in his face, frankly), but I’ll bet on the 95-98% chance science gives me.

    Thank you, for your kind attention. We now return to our regularly scheduled program."


    These are easy, "underhand lobs" in your direction. If Epicurus gets a hold of you, well....

    Happy Mother's Day!

  • mcgyver

    @randy: no i'm not irish, yes, i like the tv show.

    Ah randy, so you do believe in God, just not the God that George Bush or creationist believe.

    I have a problem where people want to teach pure Genesis teaching in school books BUT I also have a problem where people want to say that science and evolution has prove there is no God which is what dawkins is saying. For an intelligent man, he sounds like an idiot by saying that.

    It's far too early to conclude there is no God from science, in fact many evidences point to a Creator.

  • Epicurus

    lol oh this is just too easy.

    where did Richard Dawkins say he doesnt believe in god because he cant see him?

    he never have his reasons yet you put reasons in his mouth to create a strawman argument. pathetic.

    the reason he or any of us dont believe in your god is the same reason you dont believe in other peoples gods....NO EVIDENCE.

    and for the christian god, or muslim...the claims made for that god are just false themselves. so lack of evidence and false claims.

    and randy didnt say because evolution is true there is no god....please show me where he said that.

    im almost feel bad arguing with this person as english is clearly their second language...and if they honestly believe what they typed out i get the feeling this person isnt the brightest crayon in the box.

    so macgyver...please do explain to me where anyone of us said that because life evolves there is no god? until you found it keep your strawmen to yourself.

  • Epicurus

    i meant "he never gave you his reasons" as in Dawkins doesnt say straight out "this is why i dont believe in a god" he does what all of us CAN do and he refutes the claims made for the god thing. if no claims for a theory or hypothesis hold up, then the theory must be changed.

    not one argument FOR god is convincing.

  • Randy

    Epicurus wrote @mcgyver (really?):

    "im almost feel bad arguing with this person as english is clearly their second language…and if they honestly believe what they typed out i get the feeling this person isnt the brightest crayon in the box."

    No. I think Anglish is his first language, he just kind of skipped it. I get the real pungeant smell of the trailer-park in his posts...

    Someone from another country would be more respectful, I think.

    I could be wrong but going over his posts... yeah, very trailer-park...

  • Epicurean_Logic

    @randy, et all. mcgyver said,

    'Cmon a*%$^£t, explain to me what is the relationship between evolution and God.' and 'Explain the logic that lead you to say because living beings on earth evolves therefore it absolutely means there is no creator'

    There has to be a clear distinction made between Institutional religions (I.R) concept of god which spout beliefs and can most definately be disproved by evolution and even by basic common sense( i like Karen Armstrongs take on this), and the concept that God exists outside of the religous literature in some other way.

    Since most belief in god is concretely based in I.R. they have set themselves up for the criticism that they recieve and rightly so. In this domain Evolution is King.

    If you want to argue that you have a personalised belief in a creater/God not related to I.R. then you are most definately in a minority and since you have no literature to back you up there is absolutely no way to disprove your personal feelings. Although upon deeper thought these beliefs are almost inevitably 'propped up' by I.R's take on things.

    On the other hand ( i think that adds up to 3, my arithmetic was never that good) proof is nothing more than a convincing argument and depends on who is doing the convincing and who is being convinced. so find your own way.

  • Randy

    HaTe_MaChine wrote:

    "@Charles B. & afly-on-the-wall – That is like saying that Law is a religion because those damn lawyers get upset when you make up your own laws and try to teach it to 8th graders. Or that Law is a religion because lawyers are passionate in the courtroom and look at people like they are stupid when the are misquoting the law..."

    Excellent point! Just leave Chief alone!

    *shakes fist*

  • Randy

    mcgyver (really?) wrote:

    "Ah randy, so you do believe in God, just not the God that George Bush or creationist believe."

    See, I told you he was an American, Epicurus. I can smell that particular brand of silliness a mile away.

    Holy Batman, take me away from these sad, dangerous animals!

  • eireannach666

    @ Epicurus,Randy,Epicurean_Logic

    Ouch! You guy are tearing some new ones in here. No complaints. Just reading over some of these last few posts made and I saw mcgyver make his comment " Explain the logic that lead you to say because living beings on earth evolves therefore it absolutely means there is no creator, please do explain to me." and I was going to speak up on this , but well... i kept reading.

    In most cases like this I have found that
    when a person says " Cmon atheist, explain to me what ..." or cmon whatever it is more than likely that this person is not really wanting to know/learn anything , but rather see if he can find error in what you repy to either try and conveince himself of his beliefs or to try and get you worked up so he can feel better about himself for getting all butt hurt about religion being wrong.

    " if no claims for a theory or hypothesis hold up, then the theory must be changed.not one argument FOR god is convincing."

    That basically sums it up and if a person cant at first see that than they will never be able to learn or except evolution for the one key fact that , instead of openmindedly listening , they will juyst be saying well the bible told me this and pastor BJ said this, in the back of their mind.

    Im not saying that Im an evolution expert , but I do know the facts. Facts are facts mgyver , so you might want to see if you can find a few paperclips and some string if you want to get out of the mess youve gotten yourself into., or maybe try not bringing a " god knife " to an " evolutionary gun fight" . God will never win here.Heck I know that and I just started getting on here.

    No disrespect mcgyver but you did ask for it.

    "My personal philosophy is, put your chips on the most likely bet etc and Religion, apparently, only pays off after death…etc."

    Thats beautiful man.I think you missed your calling .Thats a sutley poetic way to put it , those to paragraphs.You are alot more patient than with people. Iget too frustrated and just start ripping on someone who argues a point with no validity , even after you break it down to them so simply .

    your local neighborhood leprechaun.

  • Randy

    @eireannach (does that mean warrior in gaelic?) 666 (I know that THAT means, HA!)

    Slainte! My brother!

  • Randy

    *Should have been "I know WHAT that means...." Sorry.

  • eireannach666

    HA! I like throwing the 666 in just to freak out the jesux humpers. I live in OKC but am from the Northern Bay area in Cali. When I moved here a few yrs ago I found myself outnumbered 5 to 1, so anything I say about religion here starts a fire of defense under these people. It got to the point where people even start fights over it.LOL. No kidding. Not that I care. Fux em.

    You should see the reaction I get from all my tats. Im sleaved up . I ve even had tat artists out here tell me that they wouldt do certain work for me because of their beliefs . I mean WTF? Im paying you arent I ? Thankfully I have met a few people that think the same as I on the reaction issue but few and far between.

    Wait til I get the big wicked upside down cross on my head this summer.Sweeeet!

  • eireannach666

    warrior in gaelic is "gaiscíoch"

  • Randy

    eireannach666 answered me and informed me:

    "warrior in gaelic is 'gaiscíoch'"

    Thank you, my brother! I am glad that you told me that!

    However, I am concerned. How will you get a good paying job, or start a business with a big inverted cross on your forehead?

    I mean I hate christianity as much the next Satanist, (well, I don't believe it anymore but I was ordained...), but still, you have to make a living and support your wife, yes?

  • eireannach666

    LOL Not on my forehead . Then Id be copying Glen Benton of Deicide. ( BadA** Band might I add) On the top. Long end starting in front going back.All my work is origanal design anyways . I wouldt get a tat I couldnt cover w/ a ling sleeve shirt or hair/hat in this case if need be .I shave my head. Besides Im a diesel mechanic. Nobody there gives a crap about tats.I normally wear longsleeves @ work anyways because of all th chemicals and we are forced to wear hats by law.

  • eireannach666


    I got moderated lol. Not on my forehead .On top , going back sarting in front.Im a diesel mechanic and wear longsleeves and a hat do to OSHA law because of all the chemicals etc. I do pretty well. No complaints.If I did it on my forehead I d be copying Glen Benton .

    By the way Im not a Satanist. He doesn't exist either.

  • Randy

    I know all the names of god and I know all the names of Satan. In every language, from ancient Babylon to Egypt, to Alistier Crowley, to 1960's Anton Lavey...

    Why can't I get a decent cup of coffee in this country anymore, is what I'm askin'!

  • SexMoneyMonkey

    @ mcgyver

    Just wanted to point out that it's not atheists who brought the religion debate to evolution, it's religious people who saw it as an attack. Generally, most atheists see it as just a theory. The fact that it does basically disprove the Christian creation myth among many others is just a bonus.

    And I.D. is considered a possibility be all. Even Dawkins has said that I.D. is possible but there has to be a start to that as well, who or what created that designer. He makes this point in the Expelled documentary (which is terrible).

    The simple fact, though, is that you believe there is a creator behind it all not because you are spiritual or open minded but, simply because you lack understanding. Leaving the possibility of a designer is intelligent, believing that there actual is one just shows a lack of understanding or a lack of mental capacity to comprehend.

    And keep in mind that I.D. is not a theory. In layman's terms maybe (In layman's terms Evolution is a fact, though). I.D. barely qualifies as a hypothesis, there is no way to test for it. In fact, the only things you can consider testing for is perfection in design which is painfully absent. Most, if not all, evidence points away from a creator.

    I personally believe there is no creator because, when it comes down to it, there probably isn't. The odds are painfully long. Believing in a creator is akin to believing in a big fat man who lives at the North Pole and likes giving presents. We've got a lot of evidence Santa doesn't exist (like parents buying presents) but, he still might be up there and we just haven't -seen- him give presents.

    So basically, in reason to believe:
    omnipotent creator = Santa Claus

    And I could go on about it forever using many arguments creationists use.

  • Randy

    @SexMoneyMonkey (HEY! How are you doin'? Let me type out a Boston/Irish accent for ya, "Dees fackin' guys!)

    Well, you made some excellent points. Many I am still re-reading. However I will point out this one in particular as to why I always say that god is much more complex an explanation than what we see in science.

    You wrote:

    "And I.D. is considered a possibility be all. Even Dawkins has said that I.D. is possible but there has to be a start to that as well, who or what created that designer."

    Yes. I mean, the god-theory dissolves into a soup of infinite regress. It is very mind boggling, to me, and to many others here.

    But science has an elegant and liberating explaination that relives the "intellectual whiplash" of which I earlier posted.

    Carl Sagan spoke of this as well.

  • McGarvey

    I go away for a couple of days and someone starts using a near anagram of my name! Grrrr. My friends also call me McGyver(not because of any perceived similarity with my own name but because I can make a hand glider from a biro pen and some pine cones).

    @ McGyver(will the real McGyver please stand up!)

    Mate, I don't think you've listened to Richard Dawkins properly. He has never said there is no God (which cannot be proved) only that it is incredibly unlikely - as unlikely as there being an invisible/untouchable purple dragon in your bedroom - there might be, but we cannot test it. I have faith in the purple dragon, I've felt it's presence, it helps me when I need strength. I need no evidence to believe in the dragon and the more you reason with me the stronger my conviction becomes.

  • McGarvey

    @ Achems Razor

    I think hallucinogenic plants may have had a major part to play in the development of religions. Many cultures still use them as a gateway to the 'spirit world'.
    Also enjoying your posts, mate!

  • Hardy

    @McGarvey: The final question to you would be if you are part of a specific religious conviction. Do you call yourself a christian, muslim, hindu?

  • McGarvey

    @ Hardy


    I think you are confusing me with my doppleganger - see my post above!

  • Hardy

    "I have faith in the purple dragon, I’ve felt it’s presence, it helps me when I need strength. I need no evidence to believe in the dragon and the more you reason with me the stronger my conviction becomes."?

  • McGarvey

    @ Hardy

    Oh, right. I call myself a purple dragon-Agnostic!

  • Charles B.


    I haven't been able to come up with any snide witty remark about your purple dragon post for several days now, much to my chagrin, so I think I'll just "pray for you" sincerely tonight. Ha! Take that! May the best "deity" win and may your purple dragon bring you comfort with that knowledge that a true-blue Christian believer is praying for you tonight.


  • SexMoneyMonkey


    You should feel lucky that a delusional person is talking to the voices in their head for you thinking that they are some powerful man in the sky! :P

  • McGarvey

    I pray also...

    Our "Puff",
    Who art in Honah Lee,
    Purple be thy frame,
    The frolicking one,
    Thy will be done,
    On Earth as it is in Honah Lee,
    Give us this day our Autumn mists,
    So that we may frolic in them,
    As you have frolicked in them before us,
    And lead us not into the sea,
    But deliver us to Honah Lee.

    In the name of Puff, little Jackie Paper and the Autumn mists - Amen.

    By the way, you should not listen to Hardy on Magicdragonism. He belongs to the CRAZY fundamentalist "Church of latter day Jackie Paper's". They believe in a strict and LITERAL interpretation of the Honah (Our holy book). This, of course, is absolutely wrong as the Honah is an allegorical text and should be interpreted as such! They, in fact, continually miss the essential message of Our Lord by selectively choosing what to literally believe. I do not consider people of Hardy's ilk to be true Magicdragonists and neither should anybody else! These people are dangerous! They interpret- (Book of Jackie:Chapter 1:Verse 14)"A dragon lives forever but not so little boys" as justification for the slaughter of non-believers! Magicdragonism is a religion of peace, Our Lord is a frolicking God!

    Anyway, I go now, Peace be upon all of you, in the name of our most holy and purple Lord. I pray all of you may one day find Puff and let him into your lives - he is the light and the dark, the Alpha and Omega, the heavens and the Earth, Amen.

  • Charles B.

    I admit, that was clever. Sadly so! On prayer list you go! :-)

  • McGarvey

    @ Charles B.

    Nice one! I worked hard to get on that list!;)
    Seriously, but, kudos to you for having a sense of humour about it - you gotta laugh, don't ya?

  • Randy


    That was brilliant! Pure Scottish humor, rare and intelligent, and bizarre!

    Bravo, my Gaelic brother!

  • Randy


    Do you mind of I copy it for my own use? Or, I should ask, would you give your permission?

  • McGarvey

    @ Randy

    Don't stop Puffing for nuthin'!

  • McGarvey

    @ Randy

    Of course you can use it, as long as you treat these holy words with the respect they surely deserve. If by using this prayer one more person's heart is touched by Lord Puff then I will surely go to Honah Lee a happy man!

  • Randy



    I promise... (having a hard time typing, laughing so hard...), I will give your holy text all reverence and credit my brilliant brother McGarvey with their origin....

    #sigh* Brilliant...

  • tomoa

    I think it's funny that some of you believe we are chaotically aged hydrogen. Is it just me?

  • Randy

    We are actually chaotically aged carbon.

    But, yes. It's all an accident of nature, there is no mystisism, no magic, just carbon molecules that aligned together because there are only four to eight ways for them to do so... so... of course it happened just as we see.


  • Ron

    Things may have been created by god but what in your books old T or New T are actually scientifically supported? Created in 7 days. Lineage of man to about 4500 years. The great flood etc etc etc. People don't mind knocking on my door to save me but if people look to science for answers and they contradict what religions believe based on faith we are somehow attacking them.

    God may have created the spark for the big bang but things took over on their own after that. The human genome project proved it.

  • DeathSSghosT

    well im mad. when i was in high school, they just said there is a theory of evolution, but we will let college teach it to you. i believe in god but i also believe in evolution. and the story evolution tells is way more interesting than any story in the bible. if we dont have competition, then the society we have would have happened eventually. it oonly makes sense to have larger group sizes to keep competition away. competition comes in many forms through inteligence and sex. sometimes brute strength, but we are just the first species to put alot of them together and eliminate any close competition so we can put everything towards where we are today.

  • ronnel

    im pity with him,,hes a close minded person and just alone, i dont think he has one believes in him and his beliefs....hope he changed to a better person.

  • keys8864

    @ HaTe_MaChInE,Epicurus,Achems Razor

    I am impressed by the well thought out arguments the three of you have posted while trying to enlighten Charles and BBC. Unfortunately you are all wasting your time. You are all trying to use physical evidence, reason and logic to refute their beliefs of what is real and tangible. While Religion, by its very nature is illogical.

    Those of strong religious convictions cannot be reasoned with, as their beliefs are not based on reason, fact or logic. These people will always argue that the scientific method is flawed. Therefore since science might be wrong, there must be a god. You can offer indisputable evidence to the contrary, and they will still argue that someone somewhere had a theory to the contrary. No matter how ridiculous or irrelevant that argument might be.

    How can you possibly refute an argument with someone that will invariably resort to explaining that you do not understand their relationship with their particular deity or reply with “Because, in my heart, I know it to be true?”

    When all else fails, the will turn to bible or whatever written word their particular belief is based upon. It will not matter when you point out the inconsistencies of the book they are quoting. There are of course exceptions there. The bible is an incredible example of how what is contained can be twisted to whatever end the proponent wishes. It can instantly be transformed from a historical document to an enlightened guide to spiritual fulfillment. You can argue that the book as we know it now is not complete, as it was edited during the Middle Ages when texts viewed as Heretical were deleted. You can argue that the gospels of Mary, Peter, Judas and others were not even included. The argument will still end the same; the word of god cannot be refuted.

    You cannot measure the immeasurable, you cannot touch the intangible, and you cannot use logic to battle the illogical. The only way to break through the myriad of defenses is to get them to question there own beliefs. I know this appears to be a daunting task. The question though, is a simple one. They only need to ask why and truly seek the answer. The illogical, the unreasonable, and the intangible are easily undone by that one simple word.

    "The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason." - Ben Franklin

  • Achems Razor

    @ keys8864:

    Thank you for your kind words, and am in agreement with what you say.

    Was not in reality trying to take anyones faith or beliefs away, which in itself is basically impossible.
    was pointing out some of the variables available that are connected to reality.

    I suppose was just a creation verses evolution argument, but it was fun!

  • keys8864

    @ Achems Razor,

    I agree, I was endlessly entertained by your arguments. In the last few days I have watched the Dawkins Videos, and have actually followed a few years worth of posts. Yourself, Hate Machine and Epicuras where the absolute standouts.

    You must be a little prophetic as well. The other day I read something you posted in 2006 where you stated you were waiting for a "Theory of Everything." There is a Surfer Dude/Theoretical Physicist, Garrett Lisi, who in 2007 proposed his "Theory of Everything". A Quantum Mechanics model that charts and predicts the movements of all sub atomic particles, including those nasty gravitons.

    It has been fun

  • Achems Razor

    @ keys8864:

    Ah.. yes. Garrett Lisi, he is in the wormhole series with Morgan Freeman, right here on TDF.

    Again, thanks for your kind words.

  • Gunnar Reiersen

    Evolution is a fact. I can't know for sure that the fact of evolution necessarily precludes the existence of God, but religionists had better hope it doesn't, because if that is so, then there is no God--like it or not.

    I was a little disappointed in Dawkins for not pointing out the glaring fallacy in John McKay's argument against the 4 to 5 billion year age of the earth by saying that the scientists who determined that are only human, and therefore fallible, and he would rather trust in the infallible Word of God (the Judeo-Christian Bible) than in fallible humans. What justification does McKay have for concluding that The Bible is any more likely to be the infallible Word of God than the Koran, the Upanishads, The Rig Veda, Buddhist scripures or any other of the numerous sacred texts of other religions that contradict the Bible? Is his judgement that the Bible is the authentic Word of God infallible? Is John McKay not also a fallible human? It is enormously hypocrtical and dishonest to reject scientific findings one doesn't like on the basis of human fallibilty and then turn around and claim (or imply) infallibility in determining what is or isn't God's Word!

    Though it may be inconceivable that God's Word could be mistaken or infallible (assuming that He exists), it is certainly far from inconceivable that humans and human institutions could all be mistaken or dishonest whenever they claim to have received divine inspiration or revelation. Certainly the vast majority of those who make such claims are indeed mistaken or dishonest, given the undeniable fact that there are so many mutually contradictory religious belief systems.

  • Gunnar Reiersen

    Correction to last post: The last word in the first line of the last paragraph should be "fallible" rather than "infallible."

  • Scott Henthorn

    Very well done, but I am honestly underwhelmed. These presentations are so thin on information that this cannot honestly be seen as a proof or disproof of anything. Still there is nothing here to support macro evolution that is toward new genera. The only proofs given are for inner species variations. The bigger picture is inferred but honestly cannot be seen as solidly given.

    How is the commonality of DNA in all living things ‘staggering proof’ of evolution through natural selection? DNA seems a fit tool for any designer conscious or not.


    Thanks for those examples I will look into them. This looks like more substantial information. Though we have to apply hard criteria for the presence of ‘evolution’, and be careful not to call natural selection evidence of macro evolution when it may only be showing the plasticity within species.

    I sometimes think we are being ripped off with the pretence of only two possible versions of origins. We have to be sensitive to the place hold in history and the place Darwin held too. Dawkins for all his intelligence and clarity, is still guilty of reacting to ideas he learned in his youth, he is reacting to contemporary ideas and their forces. Darwin has not given him an idea in a vacuum, but relief to a particular agitation, the effect this relief affect his neutrality. I wonder how many generations will go by before this collective Dawkinization is exposed for its temporal weakness.

    The Carpenter

  • H

    why do people think its okay to say "i hope you die painfully" according to the bible?
    as far as i know christianity it not ok. You should be nice and if someone is wrong you should inform/correct them not try to make them mad at you by offending them. me it seems they have a thin fate if they act like this.

    I've watched the videos and I'm still a Christian. I think people should be allowed to have theories and do research about them.

    i hate to see christians that offend people for having different thoughts. it embarrasses christianity.
    ...and if christians dont act well they give Christ himself a bad reputation!

  • mvairavan

    For a thought:

    If God created the universe and all species on earth, then how great it would be if we can communicate to any other species (atleast 1 apart from us) and find out if they do have some belief like God among them... :)

  • aussie

    @ Charles B

    People like you stop the countries moving forward in life, if everybody in the western world had a mind set like yours it would look like the middle east.

    Don't teach evolution? OK lets not teach maths or science either.

    Now all you need to do is strap a bomb to him and send him off to blow up NASA and your a true terrorist.

    Your a joke, luckily we don't have any people like you in AUSTRALIA.

    Common sense is a lot more common over here then the USA, that might explain why life is so much better eh?

  • Angel Eyes

    I find Darwin's theory to be so ridiculous. If he was such a genius how could he believe in something so ridiculous as humans evolving from apes. If that is the case why are apes still living among us and has not transformed into humans?

  • Achems Razor

    @Angel Eyes:

    I don't even know how to answer you? it is pretty hard for me to be nice with such a st00pid question, but will give it a try.
    Or maybe you just honestly do not know??
    So will give you the benefit of the doubt, "both apes and humans" evolved from a common ancestor, humans did not evolve from apes.

  • Yellow Woods Traveler

    Excellent. Entertaining, enlightening and at times, deeply disturbing. Having been told that I was being "prayed for" today, I laughed out loud at Mr. Dennet's response to friends that prayed for him in his illness. If only I had finished watching part 3 a few days ago instead of putting it off until today...I'll have to keep that one in mind for the next time!

    I found that though not all the facts were given, the few that were presented were explored rather thoroughly. If I want more, I have his books at home to turn to!

  • Saxan

    @ Hate machine, SMM, Will.. and anyone else.

    Not wanting to get involved in the debate between Science and Religion, it's about what is "true" and what is "false", yes? Well, broaden your horizons with the "idea" that nothing is true - that everything children are taught in schools today are assumptions that have been falsified.

    For instance, we once believed that the sun moved around the Earth and through technological development and falsification we have come to another conclusion - that the Earth spins on it's own axis, and we will continue to believe this until there is something else that has been falsified. Basically, I'm not great at explaining it, but it's from a book by Karl Popper, a German author and it's called "Method of Scientific Enquiry".

    A couple of quotes from the web by Karl:

    "Good tests kill flawed theories; we remain alive to guess again."

    "Science must begin with myths, and with the criticism of myths."

    He's a really interesting guy, and what he wrote about is amazing!

  • Creatio-whaa!?

    A tip of my hat to Epicurus in particular and everyone else who cited documented scientific observations to rebut the creationist nonsense. The pro-science arguments are so conclusively made in reality's favor that further comment on that front is not necessary.

    To the religious anti-reality-ists out there, I have only one question for you regarding teaching creation in a public school science class:

    "If you insist on teaching creationism in the science classroom, is it OK with you guys if we use Hesiod's Theogony as the textbook?"

    Compared to the Bible, the Greeks were a lot better at proto-scientific observations like the diameter of the earth, distance to the moon, Pi, the Pythagorean Theorem, etc. So if you want creation taught so we can "get both sides of the debate" wouldn't the Greek creation story be the best bet?

    Oh, wait. This has nothing whatsoever to do with evidence or fact... you just want to have your personal religion taught to everyone's kids. Well in that case, lets have an "everyone wear a burqa and pray towards Mecca" program in America's English classrooms, how about it? And a "worship the druid Earth Mother" during recess, and install some Tibetan Prayer Wheels in our Math classrooms.

    This entire debate is silly... it is painfully obvious why you guys have consistently lost every major court battle on the issue. The fact is that this has nothing whatsoever to do with science, it is purely religious for you. Well thanks but no thanks. You don't get to use my tax money and mandate (by law) that my child be taught your personal interpretation of an old book.

  • Tris

    throughly enjoyed all three

    dawkins pulls no punches and gives it to u straight


  • Epicurus

    LOL @ Angel Eyes.

    ohhh sigh. i wish i could be that stupid.

    We didnt evolve FROM apes...actually we evolved from the same common ancestors as all the other great apes (we are a primate). the reason there are still apes around is A) because we didnt evolve from them they evolved from the same thing as us just along a different path due to different environmental conditions. and B) if i am part Irish yet Canadian....why are there still Irish people around??

    see how B doesnt make sense...and neither does our question.

    its fine to disagree with someone but if you dont UNDERSTAND what you disagree with it might be safe to say that you are wrong.

  • Otalpsage

    Evolution has been verified thru countless number of the sciences. Genetics, biology, anthropology, microbilology, mineralogy, the evidence is overwhelming at this point. Intellignet Design folks raising a book, written by jewish nomads century's ago as infallible would seem to be on shakey ground. Science didnt walk into churches demanding evolution information be given to everyone so they have balanced opinions. Intelligent design is not science, neither is creationism. Only opinions worth having are those that can be shown by light of day. Enjoy lifes Journey

  • Mojo

    I wish people would stop saying that Faith and Science, Religion and Darwinism could go hand in hand. They could not!
    The Bible clearly states Earth was created in a few days, and goes on to make an abundance of radical and completely ridiculous statements of how species came to be. This is not compatible with evolution.
    Evolution is there, whether you like it or not. God is disproved.

  • yuri

    @Ed... How I wish some people would only THINK before they write!!! How can you ask someone to "prove" God using only "normal" language??? Thats like telling someone to win a game of hockey on a football field -you can't set "the rules" for a "spiritual game" under "the rules" for a "scientific game." It's simply unfair... Our language and culture are very much predisposed to the influence that science and industry has had on our civilizatiion over the past few hundred years, and so anything explained under these terms would seem to have more relevancy than anything explained in a spiritual sense -however, if you were to make the same request in a more ancient language, explaining God to a child, or anyone, may not be so difficult afterall... also, to think that any mere human (or technically, a mere animal with an evolutionary advantage) could possibly figure out all of the creation of the cosmos on his/her own, is ludicrous... It takes a little more brain power to really reach that higher level of thinking, but if you can reach that point of realization, all this evolution stuff just becomes a very small portion of the puzzle.

  • Billy Bingbong

    I am amazed by religious people and the beliefs they have, all because of magnificent writings with a promise of eternal life. I am also extremely glad to see how open minded the world is becomming, already the religions of the western world are a minority in their societies, it is only a matter of time before the "truth movement" exposes enough lies and conspiracies to gain a stronghold - then we have to fight the government and they have jets :(

  • Bud Burner

    @Billy Bingbong; "Then we have to fight the government and they have jets :( " I Lol'd

  • brightistgirl

    The science of evolution is not enough to convert all the links in the brain that converge as a belief in God. You will not likely outdo this biological fact no matter how brilliant your scientific answer (dear Epicurius!) We just don't paradigm shift like that. K? Michael Shermer explains this better than anyone! He has a new book coming out in May this year, but "How We Believe" is very good at describing this phenomenon.

  • brightistgirl

    Almost forgot, it's Darwin's 202nd birthday today (Feb 12th), so HAPPY DARWIN DAY everybody! Hope you get to do something in his honor this weekend, if only to watch this fantasic show. Thanks, Dawkins. Can't wait to show it to my mother.

  • Manbeast

    IMO if you KNOW there is a god, you are a fool.
    IF you KNOW there is not a god, you are a fool.

    I forget atm who said this and i butchered it i am sure..."A man cannot know anything until he realizes he knows nothing".. nice ring to it eh?

    BTW great doc!!

    P.S. IF god also talks to you fool+psychotic=u
    good luck with those meathooks of reality...baaaaaaaaaa

  • Mojo

    Well, not really Manbeast.

    We KNOW the history of the Bible, and we KNOW the stories within it are not only contradictory to each other, but also to facts that are established by modern science. God isn't real, anyone not realizing that is brain-washed or simply too afraid to admit it. It's not up to debate. The debate is only about getting theists and deists to realize they are wrong, not to actually PROVE God false because that has already been done.

  • Manbeast

    After posting I tried to find out, briefly, whom I borrowed the above line from. I am guessing Confucius after finding this similar in concept quote
    "To know that one knows what one knows, and to know that one doesn't know what one doesn't know, there lies true wisdom"- Confucius

    I wonder....If the majority of people on this planet could truly understand this concept...would a need of organized religion even have existed at all?

    Thoughts anyone?

  • Manbeast

    @ Mojo

    Agree, however people believe in many types of gods....pure energy being one for example

  • Mojo

    @ Manbeast

    True, but that is an innate need we all have. From the day we became self-concious, we have feared the end of things and have thus looked elsewhere - especially since we weren't knowledgeable enough in the past to know how the world and the universe works. We do now, and we have other 'things' in life to give us purpose and escapism from the harsh realities of this Darwinian world.

  • Jonathan Gems

    The theory of evolution is a theory - and not a very good one. If it were, it would have been proven by now. Even Darwin himself acknowledged there was no evidence in the fossil record or biology of animals or plants changing species. His theory of Natural Selection can be proven empirically but this only covers variation within a species. People have practised Unnatural Selection for many centuries, it's called breeding. There are records of people breeding horses 3,000 years ago in China for instance. But no one has ever been able to breed a horse into another different type of animal. Plant breeding has also been done for centuries. Nature gave us only two varieties of camellia, for example, a red one and a white one; but breeders have been able to create pink camellias and variegated camellias. In Holland in the 18th century, breeders managed to grow a black tulip - but never has a breeder been able to create a rose out of a tulip or a daffodil out of a dandelion. The idea that this could happen over millions of years is not supported by evidence.
    I don't have an explanation - or a theory - for how our plant and animal species came into being. One thing is sure though: 'evolution' ain't it.

  • over the edge

    yes darwins theory remains a theory so what? how about germ theory, nuclear theory , theory of gravity? these remain theories are you saying they don't exist? evolution is a fact darwins theory is an explanation of how that fact works. do you know the definition of species? you stated "only covers variation within a species." darwins finches were different species and evolved from a common ancestor or how about humans Homo habilis , Homo gautengensis , Homo erectus , neanderthal and so on all different species that evolved into us. can you explain why whales have the remnants of hind legs. everything is transitional the process is long and we continue to evolve but observing a change in a single or few generations is not the claim of evolution. then you bring up plants the sheer volume of evidence is staggering and i wont post so much text here but look up speciation of plants for yourself

  • oddsrhuge

    Are you still in High School? NO apparently "talking snakes" and "Women created from a rib" is your idiom. What you don't mention, could fill volumes....why don't you read some of them?

  • French Toasty

    Why are people that believe in 'talking snakes' or 'rib-made women' considered to be so educationally immature?

    Believing in evolution is also a leap of faith, some would even say a more extreme leap, than having an outlook based on religious beliefs. You can prove neither, and you can easily bend the meaning of many scientific discoveries about our origins to support either viewpoint.

  • French Toasty

    Calling evolution on the whole as people see it today a 'fact' is not a very accurate way to consider it. I believe evolution is a fact only in the way a species adapts.

    What I mean to say, is that sure, species will ADAPT over time to become more successful in it's environment. Survival of the fittest works in this way, where the species most suited and acclimated to it's environment will survive and perhaps have some different qualities than it's ancestors. In this way, the species adapts and evolves.

    Most people today though also believe evolution means that life began from raw materials in some extraordinary evolutionary process where inanimate matter adapted and evolved into life - a believe that has no concrete proof in science whatsoever. How *did* life begin? Again, evolution offers no provable explanation.

    Evolution defined as a species adapting seems quite acceptable from a scientific viewpoint... however, believing life evolved or adapted from 'dead' matter currently has no solid scientific ground to stand on, and is one reason why evolution as most understand it today must remain only a theory.

  • French Toasty

    I'll play devil's, or rather, Bible's advocate here for a sec because I like to promote an open mind about these types of issues. We are all free to believe what we like in the end.

    Yes, we know the history of the Bible. Some would also say it contradicts itself. Others would say these contradictions only rely on an inaccurate understanding of the Bible.

    However, I have read and studied much of the Bible for myself in the past and never found anything that contradicts scientific facts. Some religious circles espouse and promote traditionalist-based viewpoints supposedly taken from the Bible that DO contradict with science, but that does not mean they are correct.

    For instance, one sticking point for some is the age of the universe. Bible believers say that God created the earth and all life and follow that train of thought and study to certain 'scientific' viewpoints that are likely inaccurate. The Bible does not say HOW God might've created life beyond speaking it into existence. What methods would God have used as he spoke things into being? How long would it have taken to create the world and life? The six 'creation' days in the Bible can be seen as different lengths of time depending on your interpretation (I think most of us would disagree with a 6000-ish year old earth as promoted by some Bible scholars). The Bible does not give detailed accounts of precisely how the world as we know it came to be, and this is where modern science has made quite a large impact on our understanding of 'the beginning.' Furthermore, when the Bible accounts of creation are carefully examined, they do not really conflict at all with the current proven findings of modern science.

    It is also scientifically impossible to prove or disprove the existence of a God or God-like being(s).

    OK, sorry for the long comment. I'm done playing devil's/bible's advocate. Just some food for thought. :)

  • over the edge

    @french toasty
    could you please show me where evolution says anything about the origins of life? the theory you are referring to is abiogenesis not evolution. and i will say this again so please read this carefully evolution is NOT a theory darwins explanation of the mechanics of evolution is the theory evolution itself is a fact. also within science a theory is as high as an explanation can go you are using a common tactic of creationists/id by using incorrect definitions of scientific terms to try to discredit it

  • French Toasty

    Whoops, my apologies - that is my mistake, and you are quite correct in my misuse of terms. I myself tend to be conditioned by those I run across that are willing to speak about the subject - many average people I talk to tend to meld the terms together as I have just done, since they cannot seem to picture one without the other. I do actually recognize abiogenesis and evolution as two completely separate things.

    I also have no intent in making a feeble attempt to disprove the proper definition of evolution, but I must also admit that I do not personally agree 100% with the poplular views of evolutionary biology held by most modern scientists and academia.

  • over the edge

    i respect that you can admit a mistake as most cannot. i have no problem with someone challenging science or someone not convinced 100% by the evidence. you are entitled to your views and as time goes on theories will change or adapt as knowledge grows. you posted another comment on religion and science. the only response i have on that front is that one will never support the other (natural forces versus supernatural forces) that is not to say one cannot hold both as true. only that they cannot be intertwined. as long as religion stays out of the classroom, politics, science and my home believe whatever makes you a better person

  • French Toasty

    @over the edge
    It may surprise you then that I find religion and science as inextricably intertwined and find both as feasible working alongside one another!

    However, that is an unnecessary discussion, and I also respect the right of all to their own beliefs or lack thereof, and would never try to push anyone to believe the same as myself. I too encourage you to believe what you feel might make you a better person.

    And by the way, thanks for correcting me in terminolgy. :)

  • Jonathan Gems

    Please give one example (just one) of a species of animal or plant life
    changing into another. Blustering is not the same
    as rational argument.

  • Jonathan Gems

    No doubt if you had an argument you would make it. It's not your fault.
    You've been taught to believe that Darwin's so-called theory of evolution
    (which actually wasn't his theory) is true. If you had evidence you would
    present it - not have a tantrum.

  • over the edge

    @Jonathan Gems
    as i already stated darwins finches are speciation.

  • Epicurus

    can you name a theory that has been proven fact?

    do you understand what a theory is? i will help you out.

    A few words need to be said about the "theory of evolution," which most people take to mean the proposition that organisms have evolved from common ancestors. In everyday speech, "theory" often means a hypothesis or even a mere speculation. But in science, "theory" means "a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed." as the Oxford English Dictionary defines it. The theory of evolution is a body of interconnected statements about natural selection and the other processes that are thought to cause evolution, just as the atomic theory of chemistry and the Newtonian theory of mechanics are bodies of statements that describe causes of chemical and physical phenomena. In contrast, the statement that organisms have descended with modifications from common ancestors--the historical reality of evolution--is not a theory. It is a fact, as fully as the fact of the earth's revolution about the sun. Like the heliocentric solar system, evolution began as a hypothesis, and achieved "facthood" as the evidence in its favor became so strong that no knowledgeable and unbiased person could deny its reality. No biologist today would think of submitting a paper entitled "New evidence for evolution;" it simply has not been an issue for a century.
    - Douglas J. Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology, 2nd ed., 1986, Sinauer Associates, p. 15

    Basically, we take an observed fact which is things change or evolve. we then make a theory as to how they evolve. this explanation is given by natural selection, mutation, and gene drift. now we know in microevolution that natural selection is real and we know through genetics that gene drift and mutation occurs. we also have observed past fossils with traits that show a gradation from simple forms to more complex ones that are fitted to the niche of their environments. and we can also track those environmental changes.

    you must accept macroevolution if you accept microevolution and if you understand the immense variation in DNA. it is an absolute inevitability especially given the amount of time available.

    if you want examples of macroevolution that have been published in peer reviewed journals and is accepted you have two options. you can either go look them up...."macroevolution evidence" or you can tell me you are too lazy or dont know how to research and i can list a whole bunch in here with their respected authors....its up to you.

    lets get back to your misconception of THEORY.

    Atomic theory is a theory. so is germ theory. Atomic theory is a theory that proposes the existence of invisible objects called atoms that we have never seen. would say that it is just a theory?
    germ theory proposes that bacteria and other unseen objects caused sickness....would you claim that is just a theory? what about our heliocentric theory? would you say the sun is not the center of our solar system?

    you MUST understand the difference between a SCIENTIFIC THEORY and the layman's usage of the word theory.

  • Paul So

    Just because you respect our beliefs or lack of it does not entail that you avoid discussions or debate in order to arrive at a conclusion as to which ones could possibly be true. In debate or discussions no one is coercing the other to believe in their position but merely convincing them by providing evidence and reasons through argumentation. Providing these proofs are not coercions because the provision of these materials allows the other party to evaluate them for him/her self. However to indoctrinate the other by simply telling them that he or she is wrong, and telling them that they need to change their beliefs or they will burn in hell is a kind of coercion.

  • nicepicture

    believe in evolution; that is the problematic phrase.

  • aldz trust

    Are you blind? the evidence is right under you nose and you don't even bother to notice it! False belief called religion blinded you, dude...

  • Jonathan Gems

    The failure of Darwin's theory of evolution is nothing to do with religion -
    that's a distraction. It's probably a political issue. The 'survival of
    the fittest' concept supports social management and social engineering
    strategies employed by dominant establishments. It suits the ruling class
    to have people believe in 'evolution'; it makes people accept the concept of
    hierarchy and striving to get ahead to please those above them in the
    hierarchy. The best slaves are those who choose their slavery voluntarily.
    So evolutionary theory has political traction for our lords and masters.
    Of course, it also leads to the philosophy of eugenics - of superior and
    inferior humans - a philosophy still embraced by the ruling elite today.
    Darwinism led to the atrocities of the Nazis, the death camps, and the
    eugenics courts of the 1920s and 30s that led to thousands of 'inferior'
    women being sterilised. Some claim the UN, Unesco, the World Health
    Organisation and other globalist institutions, are currently engaged in
    sterilising hundreds of millions of people via vaccination programs,
    genetically modified food, sodium fluoride and other sterilants in drinking
    water etc. in order to rid the world of 'inferior' human. Ruling class
    families eat only organic food grown on their own farms and spring water
    bottled from their own springs.
    Most microbiologists and many biologists and zoologists no longer regard
    Darwin's theory as credible. There's no evidence to support it and too much
    data that contradicts it. The notion that all of nature somehow "evolved"
    out of a mud puddle containing some amino acids is not feasible. The DNA in
    one human cell, if unravelled, stretches over 6 feet in length and is
    fantastically complex and well-organised. The idea that such a structure,
    which is a million times more complex than our most advanced computers,
    could happen randomly - or via a process of 'natural selection' - is absurd.
    What IS 'right under our noses' is the evidence (tons of it) that all
    biological and non-biological matter has been intelligently designed.
    Who or what designed it? We don't know. But, if we open our minds and are
    properly scientific (that is, empirical) we may find out one day. Darwinsim
    is a politically convenient dogma that has put the academic sciences in an
    intellectual straitjacket. Fortunately, more and more people are beginning
    to break out of it.

  • Kevin Yoder

    Who made it?

    Sir Isaac Newton had a friend who, like himself, was a great scientist; but he was an infidel, while Newton was a devout Christian. They often discussed their views concerning God, as their mutual interest in science drew them much together. Newton had a skillful mechanic make him a replica of our solar system in miniature. In the center was a large gilded ball representing the sun, and revolving in proper order around this were small balls fixed on the ends of arms of varying lengths, representing Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune. These bails were so geared together by cogs and belts as to move in perfect harmony when turned by a crank.

    One day, as Newton sat reading in his study with his mechanism on a large table near him, his infidel friend stepped in. Scientist that he was, he recognized at a glance what was before him. Stepping up to it, he slowly turned the crank, and with undisguised admiration watched the heavenly bodies all move with their relative speeds in their orbits. Standing off a few feet he exclaimed,

    "My! What an exquisite thing this is! Who made it?"

    Without looking up from his book, Newton answered, "Nobody!"

    Quickly turning to Newton, the infidel said, "Evidently you did not understand my question. I asked who made this?"

    Looking up now, Newton solemnly assured him that nobody made it, but that the aggregation of matter so much admired had just happened to assume the form it was in. But the astonished infidel replied with some heat, "You must think I am a fool! Of course somebody made it, and he is a genius, and I'd like to know who he is."

    Laying his book aside, Newton arose and laid a hand on his friend's shoulder. "This thing is but a puny imitation of a much larger system whose laws you know, and I am not able to convince you that this mere toy is without a design and maker; yet you profess to believe that the great original from which the design is taken has come into being without either designer or maker! Now tell me by what sort of reasoning do you reach such an incongruous conclusion?"

  • Kevin Yoder

    Point being there is that it really doesn`t matter HOW we got here, but where we`re going now is what matters most. And the Earth ships that Mike provides are absolutely INGENIOUS! I foresee a future project for him and his crew. Come here to the Snohomish Chalet in Snohomish, WA, and build one in the area known as Camp Careless for the disabled community. Build one that a person in a wheel chair like myself could live in. That would be the next step on your revolutionary journey you`ve began.
    See how it relates to the story below? This place is currently saturated with profit seeking corporations seeking profit at the expense of the residents long term health. Your project here would put an end to it here and further initiate a world revolution to save this wonderful planet.

  • Charles Frith

    If only there was a little more humility when using the genius word. Science would be in better shape. Loads of gaps in Darwins theory. Loads of good thinking but the genius word restricts problem solving.

  • Gareth Hayes

    There are so many irrational comments here by people who simply don't understand what a THEORY is in the SCIENTIFIC world, and do not understand what the theory of evolution actually is. It's like me arguing with a Christian by saying the Koran is wrong. If you're going to argue against something so fiercely at least know what it is you are arguing against - if you actually believe that god gave you a brain then USE it.

    Every time someone says "evolution is just a theory and requires faith" all it shows is that the person saying it does not understand what evolution is, has not looked at the evidence, and does not understand what a theory is.

    If you are going to try to disprove evolution then you need to provide another theory that FITS THE EVIDENCE, that's how science works - otherwise why don't you reject science all together? Stop using your computer and all the other things science has given you and go live in a grass hut in true dark age style.

  • Edgar N Arbaje

    Whenever some person comments that "evolution is just a theory", or that "science has not proven it yet", or even that "there is no evidence for evolution", I am drawn to think that all of these criticisms not only come from the same source but are also spoon-fed to these people. Why do I say this? Because these are some of the exact same arguments that people made 150 years ago when Darwin had just published On the Origin of Species. Since then, millions and millions of data supporting the idea have been either discovered or created, and yet the argument of the opposition has refused to evolve!

    People who are science illiterate seems to have problems with these crucially important concepts:
    1) principles of statistics, and application
    2) the concept and applications of a "theory" (falsifiability, testability, generation of new data)
    and 3) formulation of ideas using the scientific method.

    For all of these people who use these outdated arguments, the questions I have to you are these: do you even know what scientific evidence supports evolution? Can you grasp the overwhelming amount of data that supports evolution?

  • lj cf

    Evolution is a theory, god is not even an hypothesis.

  • AtheistTroll

    Evolution is a fact, the theory explains how it works, much as gravity is a fact and a theory of gravity explains it.

    God is a failed hypothesis, we observed nature in all its glory,made a hypothesis to explain it, and then failed to provide even the slightest shred of evidence to support it.

  • Guest

    Who says GOD has to be what it is?
    The Spear said: "To be or not to be", the Beatles said" "Let it be" I say: Let it be what? Me? You? Us?

  • JustAn0therBrick

    Evolution is a theory and you need faith to believe in it (just like faith in God), because there is no proof for evolution in present (you don't see any transitional species walking around), nor is there any proof in the past (no fossil records of any form of transitional species - there are only gaps in fossil records leaving a whole bunch of perplexed paleontologists). It is a theory that has been proposed but can not be replicated or reproduced unlike provable theories in physics or chemistry.

    Think about it. How the heck did the one cell organism suddenly turn into a two cell organism? What made it evolve? Did it just "think" that it needs to become two and why? How did a multicellular organism evolve to have vision? Did it just "think" that there are things out there that it wants to see to lead a better life (think easy access to food, etc)? Can you "think" and develop 2 more pairs of hands to work better? How the heck can an organism with no idea about world outside it develop eyes (one of the most complex senses)? What is the intelligence behind it? What is the intelligence that drives all these changes? Have you even once stopped to think about it before shouting evolution. It is easy to look at evolution on a macro scale and say you understand it, but once you get down to the details, the micro scale, there are no easy answers.

    I might as well say that if I leave a whole bunch of transistors alone for a long enough time, they would've re-organized themselves to become an Ipad. That obviously wouldn't happen. So there is something else about organic substances that guides them to "evolve" - call it nature, life force, whatever - but it is a higher intelligence that is beyond the scientific theories of evolution.

  • over the edge

    there is lots of proof for evolution. example fossils,dna, vestigial appendages and so on. we are all transitional species very few living things appear as they did in the distant past. there are many transitional fossils (too many to list look them up for yourself). the theory has been replicated (see long term e-coli evolution experiment) many times. "How the heck did the one cell organism suddenly turn into a two cell organism?" you need look no further than yourself (at conception we all are one cell organisms). evolution doesn't need to "think" or "choose" to evolve it happens by mutations and natural selection. the evolution of vision has been shown so i will leave it up to you to look into yourself. your transistors example is comparing non living to living not going to address such a ridiculous statement. ok i addressed your questions. i am sure not to your satisfaction but still addressed . not address mine. show me non religious proof that a creator existed ?( the bible is full of contradictions and hearsay and therefore not proof) . when was life created? and are you saying all life appears exactly as it was created?

  • JustAn0therBrick

    Tell me sir, so how does gravity work? How does the sun pull earth towards it? By some magic string? Oh yeah, the apple falls down, so the earth must be pulling it and hey, that pull is called gravity, but how does gravity actually work? No idea. I suppose the same way evolution created all the life forms.

    (Hint : try reading on gravitons and the inability of science to find it or prove its existence)

  • robertallen1

    You obviously need an education, so let me help you get started.

    1. All the hard evidence supports evolution. There is no hard evidence to support anything else, including faith and trust and belief in a higher intelligence.

    2. You complain of the absence of transitional forms. When was the last time you visited a museum? By the way, all forms of life are transitional, even man.

    3. It would be surprising if after millions of years of development and geological and other transformations and cataclysms, there were no gaps in the fossil record. However, every day more of these gaps are being filled in and within the last 150 years scientists have done very well at this. Perhaps a good introduction to paleontology might cure of your ignorance in this regard.

    4. You want living proof of evolution, try the cockroaches who perenially develop immunities to the current insecticides. Perhaps you've read about the latest strains of viruses against which there appear to be no current antibiotics--What do you think this is all about? The internet is loaded with articles on this topic.

    5. Evolution is not metaphysics. Its explanations and conclusions are grounded in the concrete, not in the unprovable, not in the dogmatic.

    6. There is no such thing as microevolution or even macroevolution--it's all evolution.

    7. While we're at it, there are many fine articles on the development of the eye (and for that matter, other body parts). Perhaps you should examine a few before you go off at the keyboard.

    8. I realize this concept may be difficult for you to grasp, but mutation and natural selection, along with other natural phenomena, occur without normative reason. I know it's as hard for you to understand that things just happen as it is to accept randomness and the absence of a so-called higher intelligence.

    Your arguments are as tired, pathetic and empty as when they were first propounded and refuted many years ago and judging from what you've written you're just as pathetic and across-the-board ignorant. Unfortunately, there are too many like you who know nothing about what they say or write.

  • over the edge

    "Natural selection would not choose parts that did not have all their components existing, in place, connected, and regulated because the parts would not work" that sounds like the flagellum (irreducible complexity) or the eye evolution that creationists keep bringing up the flagellum has 40 complex parts but scientists have shown that it still has a purpose reduced down. the eye could have started with photo receptor cells which detect light and dark but nothing else, a few more adaptions could have detected direction, next intensity and so on there are living organisms today that possess many of the "steps" necessary to show the progression of the eye. you still haven't answered my questions on when life began and proof of a creator? you cannot prove your case by questioning another you have to provide evidence for your claims not try to attack evolution. can you provide proof for creation or do you just attack what you clearly don't understand? i went to the website you suggested.the author "John Michael Fischer" is not a biologist and has no education within the natural sciences also not 1 biologist or doctor is listed in the footnotes if i was going to go and read "expert " opinion i would expect an education in a related area would be required. your claim of transitional fossils missing in the human record is partially correct. there have been many fossil finds showing the development of man but you are right not every step has been found. darwins theory was first published in 1859 (152 years ago) creation has been around for thousands of years but evolution has lots of physical and testable evidence (admittingly not complete) where is you physical testable evidence? hiding god in the gaps is dangerous because the gaps keep getting closed.

  • over the edge

    well said robertallen1

  • Epicurean_Logic


    Don't listen to @robertallen1 and @over the edge they are just being really really horrible people by attempting to bring rationale into this debate.

    It is obvious that God did it. There is no such thing as evolution of species in fact species never changed at all. God came down from the sky and in one day created all the different animals that exist on the earth out of clay and then he breathed his magic breath into them and they all came to life fully grown and in all the amazing varieties that we see before us today.

    Even though some creatures were really similar to others and shared vestigial organs and correlated really well to the taxonomy of the phylogenetic tree. That was just the magical design and really was a test to see if man could actually use his brain and figure things out for himself or just blindly accept the 100% unequivocal, factual and non-negotiable truth that was. Don’t ask why just accept it. Silly man trying to figure things out for himself.

    Then if that wasn't amazing and inexplicable enough he created humans fully formed for the explicit purpose of serving him, a little bit like a zombie with out free will but the bad man ate fruit from a tree and gained free will and God was displeased at his slave. He was so displeased that he punished man for all time until the end of the earth came and then they would maybe be forgiven if they accepted their subservient nature.

    Lets get back to all the animals on earth. You MUST accept that god did it and if you don't and provide a silly theory like evolution (I spit in disgust at the foolish attempt to explain things rationally) then you MUST provide the exact full and complete step by step idiots guide to your theory (again I spit in disgust at your folly) repeatedly in response to every religiously motivated conservatism.

    Lets just give up on exploration and discovery altogether and permanently lock down the rationale parts of our brains in a place where there will NEVER be a risk of them being used again.

    We can't make any progress that isn't bestowed upon us by our beneficent lord so why bother?

    And as for gravity. LMAO. God does it by pulling on a magic string silly.

  • robertallen1

    How right you are and let's run our businesses as we run our religion.

  • JustAn0therBrick

    My friends,

    If you can believe that all the words in the English dictionary can randomly over time rearrange themselves to turn into one of the plays of Shakespeare, then you might as well believe in the current theory of random mutations of evolution.

    Even today, scientists are unable to create even a simple living bacteria out of the organic molecules and the wealth of knowledge at their disposal, yet they argue that those very same molecules created you and me and all the wonderful living beings in this world by just randomly mutating themselves.

    If you find all that reasoning hard to believe, don't worry, you are not alone, there are many accomplished researchers and scientists in this world who do not believe in the current theory of evolution. Google search 'a scientific dissent from darwinism' and you the first link will show you pages and pages of names and credentials of scientists, biologists and researchers who do not believe in darwin's theory. You are not alone. Peruse that link if you would like to know more.

    If you don't understand how all this life has come about, don't worry, there are a huge number of things about life and human body that all these scientists themselves don't understand. The so-called mysteries.

    You don't have to believe in a faulty theory (of evolution) just because there is no other scientific theory (yet..) These guys have been wrong before. Remember the 'Earth centric universe' of Ptolemy.

    Peace :-)

  • over the edge

    life from non life is abiogenesis not evolution . evolution does not try to answer the origin of life

  • robertallen1

    Just one more thing:

    If God reallly wanted to, he could:

    1. Convert pi into a rational number, thereby simplifying geometry, plane and solid, for the whole human race and putting smiles on the faces of circle squarers around the globe.
    2. Squash the earth flat as a pancake and have everythng revolve around it.
    3. Make division by zero kosher--or perhaps in one of his draconian moods, expunge this troublesome number altogether, thus bringing us back to simpler and happier times.
    4. Eliminate Newton's Second law and while he was at it, all atoms, together with protons, neutrons and electrons.
    5. Grant fertility to mules.
    6. Expunge all those unsightly black holes.
    7. Come up with a rhyme for orange (something for him while resting).
    8. Build a perpetual motion machine and an honest politician. Can't you imagine the Nobel Prize going to God?

    These are just some of the wonderful things in God's power, if only he had a mind to do them.

  • robertallen1

    With every post, you reveal more and more of your ignorance--and you seem proud of it.

    Your second paragraph is entirely false. You obviously know nothing about the latest developments in genetics--and what do you think cloning does.

    Your third paragrah is as ill-informed as your first. No scientist respected by his peers denies the concept of evolution any more than a mathematician would deny the concept of limits.

    Your crowning achievement is to call evolution faulty without knowing anything about it.

    Most people have been wrong at some time in their lives, but the difference with you is that you're wrong all of the time.

    P.S. Please regard me as your enemy.

  • Guest

    Can't believe it, everywhere I go there is god stuff, going to log in just for the great comments. I promise!

  • AtheistTroll

    Just because you can't comprehend or understand a subject like evolution or gravity as you clearly demonstrated 19 hours ago by essentially saying "evolution is random" doesn't mean it can't be true. It just means you ignorant to the facts,
    "Even today, scientists are unable to create even a simple living bacteria out of the organic molecules and the wealth of knowledge at their disposal, yet they argue that those very same molecules created you and me and all the wonderful living beings in this world by just randomly mutating themselves."
    Maybe you should at least do a little research before you claim this, it would surprise you to find out the results.
    I would also suggest you do a little more research on gravity as well. Seems you have trouble going beyond google for your information.

  • robertallen1

    JustAn0therBrick would not need to go beyond Googol if this person were to use it to access, for example, wikipedia which contains some fine articles which might serve to fill in this person's ignorance.

    Just An0otherBrick is just parroting what's been handed down by those of commensurate ignorance.

  • Sung Choi


    I realize that this is only a small part of your refutation, but:

    The reason why words in English dictionary do not arrange themselves into Shakesphere is because of these simple facts you will surely agree on:

    Words do not have sex
    Words don't even reproduce asexually.
    Words do not transfer their characteristics to their children.
    Words have not existed for billions of years.

    The claims of your nature are just ridiculous. Like the "words in the sand" example. If you see "Mary loves John" written on the beach sand, would you think it was written by an intelligent being or if the sand just arranged itself?

    Well, of course, any Evolutionists would agree that it was written by a person. But that is because the sentence "Mary loves John" does not have sex, reproduce asexually, have children that they pass their characteristics on, or have mountains upon mountains of "fossils" of "Marry loves John" and its evolutionary counterparts in the fossil record. Besides, we have seen plenty of times other people writing words and figures in the sand.

    Really. These arguments are getting old. Actually, about 150 years old to be more precise... how long does this cycle of proving over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over go on?


    Natural selection understood. Don't we ourselves select physical and mental characteristics to mate with everyday? Don't we try to enhance our own physical attributes to make ourselves seemingly more attractive (to what is considered attractive in various cultures)? So how is natural selection so diametrically opposed to religious teaching that in the beginning (whenever that was) God created the Heavens and the Earth?

    The computation of time by biblical standards is obviously erroneous and I'm not sure that even the bible seeks to establish time. The bible suggests that God's measurement of time varies significantly from man's. (Psalm 90:4) (2 Peter 3:8). When God promised a Messiah, he took "forever" (generations) before he sent Christ, and similarly, the 2nd return is taking another set of lifetimes.

    As a devout Christian, I never readily accpeted that the world was created in exactly 144 hours (or 6 days) as we know time to mean now. I also often wonder whether the biblical authors computed time with the same calendar that we know today.

    I have no hesitation in understanding that all the evolutionary process that we can unearth (as miraculous as it truly is) is God's own working over time. The question is, WHAT IS TIME?

  • Nunaur Biz

    "is just parroting what's been handed down by those of commensurate ignorance." And your not? I suggest you watch Professor Walter Veith's testimony, if you want the truth. Just Google it. He was a die-hard evolutionist and taught it all his years as Professor.

  • Guest

    Here is a way to see pi
    the circumference is science, it explains the physical cover of the seed of energy
    the diameter is sprituality, it contains the why of the energy

    when they talk together they are "constantly" "irrational".
    az lol mao

  • robertallen1

    @Nunaur Biz

    While I am not a biologist, etc., I'm certainly better informed than you or Just Another Brick, for in scientific matters, I rely on scientists, not Johnny-Come-Lately spiritualists.

  • robertallen1

    Anybody can come up with an analogy, but yours is particularly meaningless. What are you talking about--or do you know what you are talking about?

  • tom.nicholls

    Al Elliot says:
    "As a devout Christian, I never readily accepted that the world was created in exactly 144 hours (or 6 days) as we know time to mean now. I also often wonder whether the biblical authors computed time with the same calendar that we know today."

    Check out the original Hebrew. A day could mean 24 hours or even a tremendous long period of time. Thus God's word the Bible is correct.
    The people of the Bible based time on our Moon, our Sun and the stars; calendars are man made ... but remember they were ready for Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago just as we are ready NOW.

  • robertallen1


    You are right about time.

    But if you are one of those ignoramuses who aver that the Bible is the holy word of god as opposed to the secular word of man, then you know nothing about its history.

  • testicularfortitude

    had I lived then, I coulda conceived of evolution for many ideas comes naturally to me like differential equation and stoichemistry as a youth, relativity as a young adult...

  • perfectsense

    If you actually go to Church and read the Bible it makes perfect sense. But this crap is totally nonsense. If we evolved from monkey's why are there still monkeys and why aren't they evolving still? I would be more inclined to believe that we were brought here by aliens and left to fend for ourselves.

  • Epicurus

    LOL how old are you?

    first off nothing makes sense about a rib woman being tricked by a talking snake to eat a magical fruit...that is nonsense. nothing makes sense about a story of a man taking two of every animal on his boat so that a global flood wouldnt kill them...that is nonsense

    now to your question....

    think about this. I live in Canada yet my ancestors were Irish and Scottish...but wait! why are there still Irish and Scottish people!?!?!?!?

    also evolution doesnt say we evolved FROM monkeys per se. we evolved from a common ancestor of the present day apes and monkeys. that ancestor is extinct.

    if you are going to disagree with something perhaps you should learn about it before you make such stupid comments for everyone to read.

  • Djmdhej K,dn,mfnk

    But compared linguistics works the same way as evolution. All western languages evolved from a single ancestor: indo-europeen. Then as human spread over Europe in small bands, mutations occured in words so at the end, new languages emerged.

  • robertallen1

    I believe you mean proto-IndoEuropean which is a reconstructed, synthetic language created by linguistic historians as a transitional model. However, new languages do not emerge from changes in words which are merely the icing on the cake, but from grammatcial and phonetic mutations.

  • Last Tear

    Yes, we are ready for Jesus.
    And we are going to kill him again, but this time we can torture him even more, so that we can be really certain that God forgives our sins.

  • williamkz

    Perfect sense, I totally agree with you. Drinking the blood of a 2,000 year old god everyday at church, seems totally reasonable. What is even more reasonable , is that I don't know, say 40% of the worlds wealth is possessed by 1% of its population. According to your bible " It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for the rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven"- Then, well I guess they're going to hell.

    Furthermore, evolution of a species happens all the time. Look at dogs that evolved from wolves, or I dont know the different Homo sapiens, homo erectus etc...

  • John Skelly

    If you are a decedent from your grandparents why do you still have cousins?

  • robertallen1


    You are obviously one of those brainless fundamentalists, ignorant of both the Bible and science itself who expatiates and conjectures wildly on topics he knows nothing about. It's amazing and sad how many people are swayed by sheer quackery.

    Let me set you straight on on one of your boeotian assertions: No scientist worth his salt claims that we are descendants of monkeys (or apes if you prefer); rather that apes (or monkeys if you prefer) and man share a common ancestor and by the same token, so does every living thing. For proof, try spending some time on a Sunday at a museum of natural history or similar locale rather than wasting it at that font of ignorance and superstition which you so proudly attend.

    In addition, you might try reading--by this I mean general scientific texts as well as a history of the Bible. There are many such books. With a little luck, you might surprise yourself by your enlightenment and looking back, wonder whatever made you posit such ridiculous statements.

    But perhaps I ask too much.

  • 0zyxcba1

    @perfectsense, you can't be serious!

    Most United Stated citizens are of European descent,
    so why are there still Europeans?

    Hopefully, you yourself are a not a European, living in Europe!

  • Nat

    Right off the bat, this guy comes off as pompous. He is probably not the most enlightened individual, but then again, who is? One thing that he doesn't understand is Charles Darwin's theory of evolution can be taken a third way. (most of the time in life there is a third way) It can be taken as an even greater reason to believe in God! D: dun dun dun! How many of you saw that one coming?! It's ok though, we're all trained to have a one way or the other outlook on things. think about it. ex. Demoncrats vs Repubtards: How many of us are shills for "the party"? probably most of us, but how many of us really, truly take everything the party stands for as gospel? probably not a whole lot of us. did you know that there are many, multiple other parties out there?! Did you know that you have the respectable choice of not voting at all? (if you're into that illuminati conspiracy thing) well I'm bored with this already, so just keep in mind that there are third options out there. wonderful, glorious, and untapped third options.

  • michael3ov

    You're right evolution doesn't say that god didn't do it. Evolution doesn't even deal with god. Nothing in science deals with god. The great thing about science is there isn't another option. Evolution happens this way and this way only. Whether god put the whole thing in motion is irrelevant. Sure it can be taken as a reason to believe in god but it without a doubt disproves the genesis account of creation. Evolution does not deal with the origins of life, that is abiogenesis. It doesn't matter how life started evolution is still fact. Your analogy of politics makes no since either. Politics is nothing like science, not in the least.

  • robertallen1

    You're the unenlightened one. Why don't you read something about Dr. Dawkins before making your asinine comments about him. And speaking of asinine, why can't you write acceptable English? This pseudo stream of consciousness coupled with your trendiness ill suits you and your topic and leaves behind a trail of vacuity and idiocy exemplified in your third (and meaningless) interpretation of the theory of evolution and your general treatment of third options.

  • robertallen1

    But politics is a science--ask Machiavelli, Tallyrand and Kissinger.

  • Epicurus

    Richard Dawkins never said evolution means there is no god. he has many other reasons to believe there is no god.

    however he does say evolution proves that the people who believe the bible word for word are wrong.

  • getreadysap

    seems dawkins has found a new word for god

  • avd420

    Dun dun dun! That's old news bro, it's obvious to everyone (who isn't a believer) that the believer can turn ANYTHING into a reason to believe in god! It's part of the reason we can't stand you.

  • Purplemandown

    Macroevolution is just a religion posing as science. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is full of crap.

  • Epicurus

    wow that is a ridiculous thing to say.

    Macroevolution is the product of many changes (microevolution) over a long period of time. it is an absolutely necessary outcome.

    Extremely extensive genetic change has been observed, both in the lab and in the wild. We have seen genomes irreversibly and heritably altered by numerous phenomena, including gene flow, random genetic drift, natural selection, and mutation. Observed mutations have occurred by mobile introns, gene duplications, recombination, transpositions, retroviral insertions (horizontal gene transfer), base substitutions, base deletions, base insertions, and chromosomal rearrangements. Chromosomal rearrangements include genome duplication (e.g. polyploidy), unequal crossing over, inversions, translocations, fissions, fusions, chromosome duplications and chromosome deletions

    Some of the most studied organisms in all of genetics are the Drosophila species, which are commonly known as fruitflies. Many Drosophila speciation events have been extensively documented since the seventies. Speciation in Drosophila has occurred by spatial separation, by habitat specialization in the same location, by change in courtship behavior, by disruptive natural selection, and by bottlenecking populations (founder-flush experiments), among other mechanisms.

    Speciation has also been observed in mammals. Six instances of speciation in house mice on Madeira within the past 500 years have been the consequence of only geographic isolation, genetic drift, and chromosomal fusions. A single chromosomal fusion is the sole major genomic difference between humans and chimps, and some of these Madeiran mice have survived nine fusions in the past 500 years

    Maybe you should know what you are talking about before you decide to immortalize your stupidity on the internet for everyone to see.

  • robertallen1


    Perhaps I'm wrong, but I believe that Purplemandown was caviling about the spurious distinction made between macroevolution and microevolution, one of the pet children of the intelligent designists (creationists).

  • Epicurus

    ya he was which is absolutely ridiculous. macroevolution is a necessary outcome of microevolution. its like saying that tectonic plates move into one another, but they dont create mountain ranges. its border line retarded.

  • robertallen1

    In other words, evolution is evolution with nothing in between.

    Do you agree?

  • Epicurus


    Absolutely agree.

  • robertallen1


    I can see that we occupy the same highchair.

    I don't have quite your knowledge or depth on the subject of evolution, biology, etc., but I lke to consider myself informed anyway.

    What is your take on Ms. Bachmann who in a newsbite asserted that there is currently a debate among scientists, some of them Nobel Prize winners, concerning the validity of evolution?

    And while you're at it, can you please tell me why biology and history are the school subjects most picked on by the uneducated? Why not math? After all, the concept of the infinite (and its little brother, the infinitessimal) (limits if you will), the cornerstones of modern mathematics, contradict the most endearing and enduring dogma? How Newton managed to live with himself I'll never know. Well, so much for circle squarers!

  • robertallen1

    Thanks for the link. I would like to send it to Ms. Bachmann, but I don't have her E-mail address.

    I wish it were just a small number of Christians. I find the situation bleaker, especially after reading the article on creationism in Wikipedia, according to which the percentage of Americans who believe in evolution dropped from 45% to 40%. Maybe Canadians are generally more enlightened.

    The problem is that these ostensibly "small number of Christians" try to infect everything with their ignorance, especially our schools--and they don't care if they have to distort the facts to do it. For something as jaw-droppingly stupid as Ms. Bachmann, go to any creationist or intelligent design website--and there are plenty of them.

    On the brighter side, you might want to read about Kitzmiller v. Dover School District which, despite its positive outcome, is scary. It's on the web and there is even a free documentary on it in Top Documentary.

    But I digress. My point is that modern mathematics contradicts "fundamentalist" thought, especially regarding omniscience, and yet it is relatively free from potential interference, perhaps because its abstract nature requires too much intellect for the evangelical Christian.

    Your thoughts?

  • Nat

    well sir, duh duh duh mmmbff... I win. quit acting like you're smart dude. I watched a whole video on this guy, and his opinion on the subject. What he has to say does not make me want to pick up one of his books. You know, I'm pretty sure you can understand everything I'm saying anyways and as long as I can get my point across and you can understand me, who cares about mhhmmhmmhm proper english. learn to think dude.

  • robertallen1

    The way you express yourself says a lot about you and from the way you express yourself, it's obvious that you're the one who needs thinking and learning, not Dr. Dawkins who practices both.

    By the way, what is your opinion on "the subject," that is if you can enunciate it?

  • noahracheljohnson

    I met my wife while reading Dawkins, and it was nice to see a full doc with him. All too often I've felt how he obviously feels, red-faced and frustrated to the point of rage at people who simply "believe" what they "believe" because it's easier to digest than a multitude of facts, evidence, and theory. I hate the argument of "how do they KNOW?" when the people making the arguments don't actually "know" anything other than what they were fed. I hate trying to explain evolution to people who say they don't "believe" in it. That's like saying you don't "believe" in algebra, physics, or cosmology. It works, we've done our reseacrh, and are able to create predictions based on the date we've accumulated.
    What I'm trying to say is....good doc.

  • Linda Falkner

    The ideas of creationism have been put out by the Discovery Institute. It's been spread around and passed off as fact for so long that the gullible "believe" it. It's never been based on anything that comes close to facts. Evolution, on the other hand, is exclusively based on observable facts. There are hundreds of thousands of great books and articles explaining how it works to anyone who is interested in understanding it.

  • Bryce Gibson

    im only 3 minutes in, but first id like to remind everyone that even proving evolution does not consequently prove the existence of god as false, the church has never actually stated its against any evolution theory, but rather thinking of science as explaining and unfolding the complex mysteries of life and all creation. and i do not belong to any organized religion, if that somehow gives me more credibility, as im sure it does for this ridiculous science vs church battle continues. also, theres fucktonne more to existence then what u can see, open your eyes, and a lot more to us then what u can weigh, " quantum communication " is a very interesting thing to look into if you've yet to be enlightened to these concepts, you can find videos on it within this site.

    stop this bullshit science vs religion war i just want to learn about the world without your human ignorance clouding my understanding. be open to all ideas, believe in what you understand, accept what u cannot. and never close any windows just incase light decides to one day shine through.

    in the end, love is everything

  • Christian Klinckwort Guerrero

    Wonderful documentary. A bit shortsighted,for my point of view. The students and Richard, see "Believe in god" serching him god outside within oneself. Nature and its inteligence,therfor we, are god. Please consider this thought.

  • robertallen1

    It's hard to consider a thought expressed so inarticulately.

  • jonathan jackward

    google this .....unified field of consciousness

  • Tuketu

    Hello Bryce,

    Although it is true that proving evolution does not strictly disprove the existence of god, if theories exist which are accompanied by compelling evidence to explain human existence (such as evolution, the big bang, etc.), what need is there to invoke the presence of a supernatural being such as a god?

    Regarding the mention of a war between science and religion, I believe the incompatibility is rooted in the basis of each , where religion relies heavily upon faith / believing things without needing proof, and science requiring ideas to be accompanied by evidence and/or data in order to be taken seriously.

    This is only a minor contradiction compared to the actual dispute common to these types of forums, which is not so much a matter of science against religion, as it is the Dawkins-style atheist against religion. The reason for this dispute being that with no compelling evidence of the existence of a supernatural god, subscribing so strongly to any religion is an act of folly at best, and at worst, the cause for much of the world's turmoil: think multiple crusades, inquisition, Taliban, KKK and a seemly endless list more of episodes and groups consisting of or causing a massive loss of precious human life among other horrors, in numerous forms fueled by religion. In the face of evidence for evolution and lack of evidence for the existence of any god, these atrocities are shamefully meaningless, and in some cases still impacting us today.

    At the risk of sounding cliche, the point is as well summarized by a quote by Steven Weinberg, "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil... that takes religion. "

  • Killin

    I would have thought evolution is pretty good evidence of intelligent design, at least what little we know of it.
    But speaking of faith, well, there are certainly many leaps of faith when it comes to explaining evolution, natural selection, survival of fittest, the selfish gene and so on....Let us not forget the evils of social darwinism and the many false directions of this ideology.

  • Killin

    Nasty note Epicurus! Not many of us have your specialised knowledge, but it should not prevent us from commenting or asking' stupid' questions. This is how we learn. Also, thank you for clarifying micro and macroevolution.
    It seems to me that the conflict between science and 'faith' is most intense amongst a minority of fundamentalists, probably representing a number of religions, not just Christianity. Personally, I don't see a conflict. But the 'religious right' seem to have more political power in the US., and elsewhere, than in this country. I don't hear that expression in Canada on voting day. Course, we have a semi-socialist party as the official opposition....
    Aside from that, as a social scientist, a mental health clinician, I am interested in neurodevelopmental and epigenome studies indicating that our social and biological environment influences genetic expression more than previously known. The impact can affect several generations. Bruce Perry, Clyde Hertzman and many others are delivering remarkable information leading to a new perspective on evolution, one which is, as I understand it, quite different from Dawkins', especially his grandiose assumptions in The Selfish Gene. I think he had it wrong there.


    Science is the truth, no matter if you believe in it or not.
    You said "why not genetic variation or genetic adaptation?". Well, the variety of genes in the gene pool is one of the fundamental keys which leads to evolution. And what you said about the genetic adaptation is wrong. The gene per sé, doesn't adapt itself to the environment but it is its expression that changes. These characters that you obtain (due to changes in gene expression) are not passed down to future generations because you are talking about genes that are autosomes i.e. those that doesn't contribute to the genetic pool in the future. And i don't see how the impact of environmental factors on gene expressions somehow downgrades the credibility of Evolution which has literally thousands of evidence from fossils to DNA analysis and scientific experiments from all over the world.


    Dawkins has never said that God doesn't exist (like a true scientist, simply because he can't prove that an "All knowing" being exists; which doesn't lead to the conclusion that something of the kind exists.) What he says is that creationism is a tale of fiction just like Harry Potter and LOTR and that Evolution is a fact.


    You don't need a leap of faith to see that Evolution is a fact. If you read "Evolution; the greatest show on Earth" by Dawkins, you'll know that numerous experiments have been done by scientists which allows you to actually see the evolution of the species selected (guppies are one of them). Obviously these experiments requires a lot of time and patience (since the process of evolution is gradual, and not like the one you see in Pokèmons) but it is something that you could do yourself at home.


    First of all, we did not evolve from monkeys; we share a common ancester with them. And evolution is a gradual process which takes millions and millions of years, so you can't expect to see a monkey to stand up and talk or a whale to grow out legs. And, we are still evolving, you just don't notice it because as i said before it's a gradual process.

  • robertallen1

    First of all, you confuse evolution with replacement.

    Secondly, what makes you think we are not evolving?

    Third, you obviously don't know or want to know the Bible. Both testaments are filled with irresoluble contradictions from one end to the other, so how can it make perfect sense?

    Fourth, who have you been listening to, if anyone, and what have you been reading, if anything?

    AUWR answered you well. Expand your mind with science; religion won't do it.

  • robertallen1

    What do you mean "they were ready for Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago . . . ?" Biblical scholarship has shown that the New Testament was retrospectively brought into conformity with the prophecies of the old and that the prophecies of the Old Testament were brought into conformity with those found in earlier writings such as those from Egypt.

  • Killin

    Thanks for your interesting note!

    However...I'm sure you will agree first of all that science does not always reaveal the truth about things.

    In any case, new information is changing the way we understand evolution. I am not disputing evolution, but questioning some of Dawkin's inferences in particular.

    New research asserts that “genes are merely chemicals and without “experience” – with no context, no microenviromental signals to guide their activation or deactivation –create nothing.” Perry, B. (2002). Childhood Experience and the Expression of Genetic Potential. Brain and Mind 3: 79–100, 2002. Kluwer Publications, Netherlands, P 81.

    Leaps of faith are inferences based on gender and culture bias, such as Dawkins' remarks, for example, about adoption in The Selfish Gene, p.102. "In most cases we should probably regard adoption, however touching it may seem, as a misfiring of a in-built rule," …do mothers deliberately try to deceive naïve young females into adopting her children?”

    These sort of remarks put me off. First, the statement assumes primacy of maternal responsability in child rearing, a male bias, a culture bias and a values perspective.... 'naive young females?' ???It is often the other way round, naive young females abandonded by fathers, unable to rear their children etc...older couples adopting. Where do the paternal figures fit in to this equation? So, I don't get this line of thought. And...if evolution has no purpose or goal, then how or why can there be any hard and fast rules about child rearing?

    The second video on this site is more interesting I find, am watching now, still, a bit slow, and he is on a mission, which he should not worry about, in my opinion. Evolution is a fascinating study and scientific inquiry is accepted by most religious believers. There are cultural sensitivities at the root of religious rejection of evolution and an inability to accomodate paradox in the mystery of faith. Thats all.


  • Killin

    OK. Second video
    Date? Why has D not explored neurscience and human genome research, or anything that seriously questions his propositions about the selfish gene?

    Frans Dewall is quite right in his remarks about the books misleading title and the idea of 'veneer morality' which to be sure does exist.

    Dawkins' concluding sociological arguement is that we have the ability to 'fight back' against the natural inclination of our selfish genes- and create a more humane society. In this suggestion, Dawkins has stepped into the realm of the transcendent....from where do we obtain this capacity to reshape the process of evolution if not from evolution itself? He does not explain himself here. If it is recipriocal altruism, then it will come naturally. If there is more to it than that, what is it?

  • Killin

    Wait now AUWR, if evolution takes millions of years how can a species adapt quickly enough to survive through natural selection? There is evidence of evolution when we can see, within one or two human generations, some change in animal adaption. Is that correct? I am thinking about a moth species that changed colour during the industrial revolution, someplace in Britain , because their natural habitat was damaged. The dark coloured species were less vulnerable to predators, so they lived longer and reproduced. I don't know how many moth generations it took, but in human terms, probably one.

  • Killin

    Right you are. God's time is not measured by our notions of time. Anyway, time is relative. Do creationists also dispute the age of the earth and geological evolution of the planet?

  • scott

    Do you need a constant environment or a constant variable to direct evolution? An example with industrial revolution putting out lots of soot, making dark colored moths hard to find for predators.....then industrial revolution dying down....less easier to find dark moths? Are cells and tissues just responding to variables in environments??? For major changes in organisms..there would have to be excessive constants?? Like maintaining a formula...

  • Killin

    I think this is a good quote from a respected religious leader of our times:

    Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes.
    Pope John Paul II


  • robertallen1

    How idiotic! We don't need religion to help science do what it can do far better all by itself.

  • TJ

    there is one absolute question that science, due to the setup of its laws, can not answer. that is the last WHY question. and it is the ONLY question where science fails and we must make a decision on faith or stop asking. like all decisions, there are two choices, and theyre totally yours

  • avd420


    I like that. I for one, have stopped asking. The relentless search for "why" will often lead one on a predictable pattern towards a faulty conclusion.

  • robertallen1


    What is this "Last Why Question?"


    Evolution is a gradual process. It speeds up when the environment is subjected to drastic changes mostly due to human activities. About the moths, that wasn't really a natural selection; it was more of an artificial selection caused by human beings (the sudden increase in the amount of carbon-dioxide). The tree barks darkened in a relatively short period of time, which lead to the fast decline of light-colored moths and thus the fast increase in the dark colored moth population. Nowadays, due to the drastic increase of human influence in nature,the pace of evolution has accelerated. For example, the rapid decrease in the number of elephants with long tusks due to poaching.

  • Killin

    Thank you...So interesting! I am researching theories and theodicies of personal and social suffering, because it is work related as a have to expand my grasp of biological/evolutionary processes.
    We cover the very basics in graduate practice courses, but really its cursory. The more interesting research for me lately is neurodevelopmental , cross referenced wih population health studies-ie Developmental Health and the Wealth of Nations, Hertzman and Keating.

  • e_pluribus_unum_USA_Motto

    Religion has a really bad track record at stopping idolatry and false absolutes. So what else is it good for?

  • robertallen1

    Enslavement of all kinds.

  • robertallen1

    And these works are least read by creationists.

  • Killin

    Your point is well taken and thanks for your note. You got me started now. My response is really too long, but maybe a tidbit or two will interest you.

    What else is religion good for?
    Well consider the texts and social action of D. Bonhoeffer, MLK Jr, Gandhi, Mother Theresa..Archbishop Tutu..even Nelson Mandala, and on and on. But one must decide for themselves.

    There are also many women leaders , theologians and doctors of
    the Church who have literally driven social policy directions in my country and without whom we .would not have the infrastructure we do...such as it is at the moment. There is liberation theology, Oscar Romero and others, and the social gospel movement in Canada which was critical to developing immigration services and the labour movement here. Many people with faith backgrounds enter the helping professions, like social work, pursing ideas of social justice and advocacy for marginalized and disadvantage populations. There is so much more...we are talking about a rich intellectual history that has informed law, human relationships and education. It was the religious groups who basically started broad based education to teach basic literacy and advanced studies, way back in the day, before public schools were the norm.
    Not to mention the post colonial resurgence of aboriginal spirituality,
    which is not nearly so 'primitive' as ethnographers once described-and is
    reminding us of our critical connections to the terms of what is
    sacred and what is profane.

    Religions per se are human institutions; they fail mightily and often, the
    Bible is full of failure stories...which is why the narratives are
    believable. What about political parties and scientific institutions. Do we
    dismantle them because they mess up in spades ie eugenics movement, forced
    sterilization, social darwinism, spurious pharmaceutical claims, withholding
    HIV medication from African countries for impossible profits...
    lobotomies, unethical medical experiments ..

    So its not always about dismantling the institutions but it is about
    vigilance and revision and having a moral compass. We cannot rely on
    political ideology, science or the law alone.

    There are theodices of suffering that millions rely on for comfort and
    meaning in their lives, in a disordered, distracted and disconnected human
    family, they have messages of hope, love, kindness and beliefs life that
    transcend the human condition.

    Re False absolutes -There is a book called the Cult of Efficiency,
    about the colonizing effect of technology on human service delivery, that
    spells it out I think nicely...There is also a critical/positive post
    modern philosophy which discusses the relatively of truth claims in almost
    the same way we understand the relativity of time. Expert claims to truth
    tend to disqualify minority or dissenting voices and thereby create
    heirarchies of power. These heirarchies construct truth and create elite
    ownership of claims to truth. True of religion and science.

    Science is appropriated all the time...Hey, what if all the ethical
    scientists joined up and went on strike to boycott the armaments
    On the other hand, we have a lot of scientists involved in humanitarian
    organizations...So, truth is just not as clear cut as day and night.

  • robertallen1


    Although the people you mentioned just happen to have religious backgrounds, religion was not needed to produce them. Remember, religion also produced Savanarola, Rasputin, Pol Pot and Warren Jeffs. Jonas Salk, Louis Pasteur and Leonhard Euler did more good than any of the people you mentioned combined and they were not religious. Look at all the great people Russia, Harvard and Judaism produced; maybe those of us with a humanitarian bent should all become naturalized Russians, Harvard graduates and Jewish converts. So don’t try to hoodwink by attempting to establish a cause and effect relationship where none exists.
    Also, don’t distort. The only reason missionaries taught people (especially natives) to read (and it was always confined to a basic level) was not to educate, but to obtain converts. In your panegyric reaching, you neglected to mention that they also brought New World diseases to those not immune to them.
    The stories in the Bible are far from believable—talking snakes, parting waters, two of every kind on an ark, a man swallowed by a whale who lived to tell about it (and I haven’t gotten to the New Testament) and your assertion that they are believable because they tell of failure is a non sequitur almost unworthy of even you.
    We need science and law before we need religion. Without the former, religion could not survive, but without the latter, science and law could survive and even thrive. The falsehood that religion is needed is merely a concoction of those who have been inculcated into it. Those who turn to religion (i.e., superstition and hokum) to get through life's troubles are pathetic, intellectually bankrupt weaklings seeking fairytale answers to life’s real problems. Those who keep their noses to the grindstone (read earth) generally find ways to cope, while those who turn to the Disneyland of religion find themselves deluded and overcharged. Spirituality is a fraud aimed at beguiling the ignorant and the gullible. We need it like we need a game of three-card monte.
    In short, what you do and believe is your own business, but don’t employ your lies, deceit and distortions to justify what has no business being justified.

  • Atheist13


    A very eloquent and powerful statement robertallen1. You argue the case for Atheism with much skill. I hope anyone in any doubt will read your posts and see that they can only come to one logical conclusion. There is no God.

    Except for Dawkins of course. I can prove it too. It says so on my tee shirt.

    memes anyone?

    Unkeep the faith

  • robertallen1

    Thanks for the compliment.

    However, it might surprise you that I don't find modern day atheists such as Dr. Dawkins true atheists. As a matter of fact, I wish there were a better (more accurate) word for them. It's just that they've still living in the Age of Enlightenment and are dejected that though invited, more don't step into their parlor.

    Dr. Dawkins and his ilk do not say there is no god, but rather that the assertion being unprovable is scientifically worthless, along with its henchman, religion, and its handmaiden, intelligent design.

    Dr. Dawkins (and you may take this to include the others of his klatch) is one of the few people in this day and age that I have any respect for, but it's the myth of Sisyphus all over again.

  • Atheist13


    Yes I know what you mean; Hitchens and Harris are quite bold in their assertions but not to point of destroying religion with the gusto and verve of yourself.
    Sisyphus .Lol. Now you’re being absurd.

  • robertallen1


    I don't think so. For enlightening the hords of the bamboozled is like Sisyphus pushing the rock up the hill. Unfortunately, it's a battle with no end in sight.

  • Atheist13


    Don’t despair and don’t give up. You're doing a great job. I look at it this way, every single word spoken and written against this monster adds to the meme pool of Atheism.

    Unkeep the faith

  • robertallen1

    Nice to read on my 64th birday, but you overrate me.

  • Atheist13


    Happy Birthday! Have a great time, forget the boulder and celebrate. I’m thinking of Steve Martin having a fun time too! As for my rating, I think it’s fine, it looks pretty sound to me.


  • e_pluribus_unum_USA_Motto

    You give religious motives to people that had none or whose religious motives were evil rather than good.
    Bonhoeffer did the right thing - he was fighting the Christian religion of Hitler and the Nazi's - everyone that fought the Nazi's were not motivated by Religion - it was the right thing to do.
    MLK JR did what he did to fight for peoples equal rights. The concept of equal rights for all is in direct contradiction to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
    Gandhi’s motivation was not religious at all. He also was not a very nice many – sleeping with underage girls whenever possible.
    The lady so call as Mother Theresa was a monster – she took stolen money from crooks and dictators. The people of Haiti have suffered greatly as a result.
    the people Theresa was supposedly helping – well she had death centers with unspeakable conditions. Her idea of religion was suffering to cure some screwed up idea of sin.
    Don’t know much about Tuto – but his motives were to end apartheid, not a religious motivation.

    If someone in your county drive positive social change – great. they are doing it because they are good people. If they say they are only doing good because they have to based on what their religion says – then you may want to slide down in the pew. They have the wrong motivation. And what ever they are doing comes to the recipient with a price – their religion.

    Please don’t suggest religion can take credit for better schools. For 1200 years religions stopped all forward progress in humanity in the west. The Dark Ages.

    Aboriginal Spirituality – Please – you mean “convert or die” that was the Christian motto for over a thousand years to every new culture found.

    Political and Scientific endeavors are subject to learn from mistakes and become better – Religions are closed system that do not self correct.

    Religion poisons everything – the very spread of HIV and poverty is directly attributable to Religions preaching that a piece of rubber has the devil in it. Religion can not take credit for helping the millions who suffer from AIDS and poverty when it is religion that created and supports the crisis in the first place.

    Morality is innate – Read any Holy book – they are loaded with immorality.

    Every moral improvement in the human condition is from the advancements of science.

    As stated before – Religion held humanity captive for thousands of years while billions died in ignorance.

    Its time to grow up.

  • Angelica Guerrero

    One of the best documentaries and one of my favorites.

  • MediaGuy40

    Evolution produced Hitler and the like

  • Atheist13


    Nietzsche had some things to say about grammar.

  • robertallen1


    That's interesting. Could you point them out to me?

    Much appreciated.


    P.S. Speaking of Nietzsche, It seems that a whole philosophical system can be created out of one premise, the same with religion.

  • Atheist13


    ”on the influence of philosophers such as Sartre and Nietsche.”

    The first proof of any creed? Always spell the founders name correctly or prove no thing against it?

    “I fear we will never be free of God as long as we believe in Grammar”

    Both from “Twilight of the Idols” I think.

    Are you referring to might is right?

  • robertallen1


    Forgive the typo.

    From your quote, it seems that Nietszche was referring to prescriptive, not descriptive, grammar or if you (or he) prefer, grammar as religion versus grammar as science. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

  • Atheist13


    I only drew your attention to the typo because it’s still in the post that @Dave criticized. If you would correct it, I would be grateful. It makes my post technically incorrect.

    Nietzsche is hard to fathom but I think he meant descriptive too. Has Grammar become a Creed? As I remember the passage, he tied language to body and ego and lamented how it inevitable it was that we would end up with God Syndrome, built in as it were. He also said language was a degeneration of our more natural, instinctive communication skills.

  • robertallen1

    I find philosophers in general hard to fathom and harder to stomach. I've never understood what good they've done or what good they are, unless there is some merit or some art to navel contemplation unperceived by me.

    All too many academicians insist on a shotgun marriage of philosophy as the alpha male to literature as the subservient female, their offspring a hybrid made up of a thin crust of literature on the outside supported by a thicker crust of philosophy on the inside, the progency consisting of an eviscerated form of literature stripped of all enjoyment, appreciation and understanding. I even heard one of these academicians posit the inanity that it's less important to read a work than to read what some philosopher has to say about it.

    Be that as it may, I disagree entirely with Nietzsche's comment on language and question his qualifications to make it. As he was neither biologist nor anthropologist, how could he have any idea of our more natural, instinctive communication skills? This is as intellectually bankrupt as those statements made by the religionists whom he excoriated.

    Somehow, if I feel tied to any one philosopher, it's Kant in his more lucid moments. Well, look at it this way. Nietzsche did inspire Richard Strauss to write one of his finest tone poems.

    By the way, if you are interested in grammar, I recommend "The Language Wars" by Henry Hitchens which has recently come out.

  • robertallen1


    I guess that's why you chose your name.

  • Atheist13


    Thanks for your opinion; I can understand why many people have a poor view of philosophy but it does have its merits. If you think that what he said about language was controversial you may be shocked at some of the other things he says. The Idols he refers to in the title of the book are the “old truths”. He later goes on to scoff at free will, dismiss beauty as not even being a concept and challenge our notion of cause and effect. No he’s not controversial at all. Lol

    Just a couple of things I remember from it
    ”All truth is simple. Is this not a double lie?”

    ”Reason? Why not unreason?”

    But you don’t have to agree with him to appreciate his fine prose. His mastery of metaphor suits his aphoristic writing style. I thought you might like this one

    ”A subject for a great poet would be God's boredom after the seventh day of creation”

    Thanks for the recommendation; I may well give it a try.

  • robertallen1


    Whether it be Plato, Aristotle, Schopenhauer, Emerson, Heidegger, Spinoza, I simply don't find it worth the effort to get through them--and this is irrespective of my agreement or disagreement. Perhaps it's my temporal outlook coupled with a sense of the Romantic--which is probably why Michiavelli (I guess he can be considered a philosopher) appeals to me, especially "The Prince" which is a hoot.

    Nietzsche's fine prose, I was once informed, must be read in the original German. From the same person I learned that the notorious "ubermensch" (I don't know how to evoke the umlaut) cannot be accurately translated as superman. I, too, enjoy a good aphorism, but my bent is with Ambrose Bierce who defined philosophy as "route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing."

    I find Sartre as lifeless as Sartre seems to have found life (I cannot figure out why he bothered to live so long) and "No Exit" and "Nausea" to be philosophical treatises awkwardly and inexpertly couched as a play and a novel, respectively--which turned me off to Sartre.

    I've been meaning to ask if you have any interest in biblical scholarship--after all atheists seem to be far more knowledgable about the bible (new, old and apocryphal) than evangelists, creationists and even ministers.

    P.S. The only thing that never fails to shock me is the ignorance and blind stupidity expectorated by religionists of all denominations.

  • Guest

    Oh suddenly I find a person quoting Ambrose Bierce. The same quote I got trashed for a week ago.

  • Atheist13


    I understand your point of view but would say all the philosophers you mention are worth the effort, but it’s not for everyone. Agreed, Machiavelli can be considered a philosopher and “The Prince” is a hoot/riot! I employ some of his philosophy almost every day. (Discreetly of course).

    I can’t agree on the idea that Nietzsche must be read in the original German though I’m sure it’s an advantage. I have some German friends who help. You were informed correctly; “ubermensch” translates better as “overcoming man”.

    Oh dear, the old Bitter Bierce quote, a supreme example of empty rhetoric if ever there was one. Perhaps we should write off all of history because “nothing matters”. A child could refute it, so I’ll leave it there. It’s a good job we all have differing opinions though, how dull the world would be if we all held the same view of it.

    I think Sartre was ok; perhaps his love life is more interesting than he is? He’s important to existentialism which seems to be having resurgence in recent times. I have no interest in biblical scholarship and can’t see that ever changing unless the pay is real good.

    Unkeep the faith

  • Guest

    Ambrose was empty rhetoric? That's funny. What other opinion would you expect to hear?

  • robertallen1

    Perhaps it's just I (boy, that sounds strange), but I've never received an uplift or sense of accomplishment from reading any philosophical treatise or from participating in any philosophical discussion. These have always been chores for me. Now, literature or a work of non-fiction on a subject which interests me is something else.

    I don't even like to argue the merits of any abstract philosophy. The temporal for me!

    I remember in college existentialism (along with Sartre, love life and all) was the rage. Personally I couldn't care less about people's love lives, Casanova's and Lope de Vega's included. Anyway, I never could quite figure out quite what existentialism stood for for at the time, everyone seemed to have a different idea. So when confused, turn the other cheek. One way or the other, the topic left me as cold as biblical scholarship leaves you. However, I admit that I admired Camus, but only because of his artistry, i.e., if he can make his saturnine view of the world come off literarily, he has it over Sartre.

    By the way, I've been meaning to ask you something else: Do you have any interest in mathematics?

  • Atheist13


    In the interests of staying on topic I have left a post for you in the Philosophy Department @ The Great Philosophers: An Introduction to Western Philosophy. I hope it’s of some use to you.

  • robertallen1

    In the interests of only barely staying on topic, tell you what: I will read "The Great Philosophers," etc. if you will read one of Bart Ehrman's books, either "Misquoting Jesus," "Forged" or "Jesus interrupted." They are scholarly and fascinating and in their own wonderful and unique way support Dr. Dawkins and everything he stands for.

    Remember as a rule, atheists are better informed about religion, and especially the Bible, than believers.

    By the way, I am still curious: do you have any interest in math?

  • Atheist13


    You have a deal, I will buy or order 1 of them tomorrow. I will let you know which one fate places in my hands soon. I answered your curious question in my last post which I hope you've seen. In the meantime how about Darwinism/TOE as philosophy and/or a creed?

  • robertallen1

    I plan to keep up my end; however, do I just go to Philosohpy Department@The Great Philosophers or what do I do?

    I suggest you start either with "Misquoting Jesus" or "Forged."

    You answered my question about biblical scholarship, but I have checked through your previous E-mails and cannot find a response to my question about mathematics. Could I trouble you for a reply? Personally, I think all atheists should take an interest in mathematics. It has theology and religion infinitely beat.

    Another curious question: which area of the world (country) do you live in? I reside in Los Angeles and have an interest in math.

  • Atheist13


    On this page choose Philosophy in the Documentary Categories (above right)

    Then choose The Great Philosophers: An Introduction to Western Philosophy.

    My post to you is at the top of the page. I think everyone should have an interest in mathematics it’s a beautiful universal language with wonders and mysteries contained therein. 1.618033 or Pi or Primes or 42!

    Thanks for sharing, I live in a tiny town, in a tiny country called North Wales, UK.

  • robertallen1

    Pardon me if I seem obtuse, but by "this page" what are you referring to? Could you please provide me with a more detailed set of instructions.

    Do you speak Welsh? Does anyone speak Welsh? From the place names, it appears to be a highly consonental language.

  • Atheist13


    Please see my post next but one below.

  • mdcampbell7

    if you pick an unlearned theist, it's easy to make even an average atheist look bright. i have yet to meet an atheist who has anything more than surface familiarity with biblical texts though. judging by the scope of your generalization--you won't be the exception. nevertheless, if you think that you have a legitimate challenge to creation or theology using the bible, i'd love to hear it...

  • joey77

    There is no theorie of evolution. Charles Darwin was taught by Satan himself to draw us away from God.

  • AmJam92

    Evolution is indeed a fact, but my question is why can it not co-exist with the belief in higher power.Call me a religiously-biased amateur, but to me the evolution further strengthens my belief in God. I may not be as well-acquainted with the theory as most fo you, infact my knowledge on the subjects pretty much extends to this documentary..but well, thats just what I thought.

  • richardec86

    Most of the people who except evolution are Christians, or at least religious. You're not the only one.

  • Rike Brik

    Darvin is great!!

  • Derek Goeckeritz

    what is god?

  • Derek Goeckeritz

    I have several challenges..

    For starters most of the scriptures and messages within it; weren't written down in manuscript form for nearly 100 years after the death of Christ; which means that the only way for "jesus's" message to get around was in the form of "word of mouth" for nearly 100 years. so im fairly mind blown into how the complete truth of what jesus taught held threw that.

    2nd: If you just google "The Challenges of Translating the Bible" or "How much ancient hebrew do we actually know" you will get some credible sources from theologists to professors all stated how little ancient Hebrew we know... even worse we dont even have the original source of ancient hewbrew or ancient greek.. we have copies of copies of copies.... meaning we have to completely trust that 3000 years ago some translator correctly gave us ancient hebrew or even 2000 years ago some translator gave us correct ancient greek; nail that all the way down to what we have now multiple translations later. There in lies the problem that we will never "truly" know what we have to this day is the "real truth" or just mistaken translation. No-one can ever truly say they know right or wrong but just try their hardest to sort out the facts from fiction.

    3rd: Adam and Eve were truly the beginning of life on earth (says the bible) If you truly nail-down the timeline of the bible (based off the bible) you will see that Adam and Eve's life began 4000 years from the bibles creation.. add 2000 years from after the death of "Christ" you will get a timeline that the earth is only "6000" years old.... now how in the world is that possible? when we have fossils that can date back to millions of years? and man's skeletons dating back more then 100,000 years. Not to mention we are discovering more and more ancient civilizations each year the more we dig into our past... for example in Guatemala.. the newly discovered ancient civilization that dates back to 12000 years ago. so how in the world can the bible say life began with adam and eve only a nearly 6000 years ago?

    Altogether my point is this i believe there is definitely some kind of purpose to this life and some kind of "higher power" whether that be a "god" or of something completely else. No-one can truly say they know until they reach that point; if ever even "deemed" worthy to begin with.

    Nonetheless i don't believe in "religion" because ive always thought that once you join a certain religion or "team" as i like to call them; your mind only goes in one path along a road created by whatever "team" your on.. instead of opening your heart/mind to other paths/thoughts/ideas and truly making real choices from your own premonition instead of someone else's. but more a "reuniting" to be as kind and generous to others as much as possible (without getting stepped on).

    I read a great quote the other day to sum this up even farther:

    "how does philosophy and christianity coincide? philosophy is so open minded whereas christianity is narrow minded. the more i learnt about philosophy the more i disregarded christianity or any religon as plausible. if philosophy teaches you truth and understanding doesn't christianity teach you to be deluded and to not question? philosophy opens a mind up to many possibilities whereas christianity teaches you to believe in one and to take a leap of faith which is very much restricting."

  • robertallen1


    Have you read any of Bart Ehrman's books, especially "Lost Christianities," "Misquoting Jesus" and "Forgery?"

  • Epicurus

    why would one use the bible to show it wrong.

    how about we take claims from the bible and put them to the rigorous scrutiny we would put any other idea to?

    adam and eve, noahs ark, jonah and the whale, balaam and the talking donkey, exodus, resurrection of christ...all scream mythology.

    now what evidence do YOU have that the bible ought to be used as a credible historical document?

  • Jeff IC ICabs

    THE ROMANS 1:20
    For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

  • Epicurus

    why did you post this? what does it have to do with the documentary?

    the bible also says a snake spoke. do you believe that?

  • rafael876

    i ask this question to my fellow humans who comment here the question is what is god?

  • markrva

    It's simple logic. Can we stop arguing about it?

  • Leah Brooks

    The Bible records eyewitness testimony of Jesus' life: John 15:26 When the Advocate comes, whom I will send you from the Father – the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father – he will testify about me, 27 and you also will testify, because you have been with me from the beginning

    John 2:13 13 I am writing to you, fathers, that you have known him who has been from the beginning.

    The scribes who made copies of the Bible were incredibly careful. They did not write word by word, but letter by letter. They counted each letter in each line, each word in each line, and each line on each page. They doubled checked the first and last word on each page.

    Have you found any historical error in the Bible? If so, I would love to hear about it.

    There are 24,000 manuscript copies of Biblical texts in various languages. No other book even comes close to this. There are no significant differences in any of these texts. The copying was done so carefully that they are virtually without any error that alters the meaning of the text (any errors are minor). There is no other book that can even come close!

    Dating methods are incredibly inaccurate. After Mt. St. Helens erupted in in the 1980s tree that were fossilized by the pressure and heat from the eruption were dated at millions of years old. That was silly--the trees were a few, not millions, of years old.

  • robertallen1

    In case you didn't notice, not only are the accounts in the New Testament considerably after the fact, but they are contradictory as well. Take the crucifixion for example. Matthew (27:46) and Mark (Mark 15:4) have Jesus saying, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" while Luke (23:46) has him saying "Father, unto your hand I commend my spirit." These are two widely disparate thoughts and any attempt to reconcile them simply results in a third hybrid version.

    In case you didn't notice, one Gospel has Jesus speaking during his trial and the other has him deliberately saying nothing. They cannot both be right.

    Also, in case you didn't notice, one Gospel depicts active involvement by Judas and another next to none at all--they cannot both be right.

    Also, in case you didn't notice, the Gospels contain at least three different sequences of events leading up to the crucifixion--they can't all be right.

    Therefore, don't insult the intelligence with your twaddle about the Bible containing eyewitness testimony--it does not--and being free of historical error--why, even the accounts of the date of Jesus' birth and his birthplace are contradictory.

    The most cursory study of the existing manuscripts of the New Testament (and there are about 1,600, not 24,000) reveal literally thousands of dissmiliarities and disparities. While a good many are venial, a considerable number are not. For example, the story of Jesus and the leper varies considerably in a number of manuscripts, especially the sequence of events--and believe it or not, it is missing in other manuscripts. A good many later manuscripts contain passages not found in earlier ones and vice versa. There are also a considerable number of alterations affecting meaning. So when you go on about the sedulousness of the copyists (for your information, a good many of them were barely literate and others had their own agenda) and the alleged care taken to prevent any changes which alter meaning, you simply do not know what you are writing about.

    I don't know where you got your information on the eruption of Mt. St. Helens, but true to form, you are completely wrong. Your ignorance of even the fundamentals of radiometrics is as embarassing your failure to read up on what really happened.

    What you have not parroted, you have improvised--and you are not good at either. I have read a lot of ignorant posts, but yours beats just about all of them

  • over the edge

    that study was put out by the discovery institute in 2001. in 2007 according to oxford university the list contained 700 names (more now updated periodically) that represented 0.023% of the worlds scientists. when you have all the info it isn't much dissent but the discovery institute would never include the dismal percent of support would they?

  • robertallen1

    Just for clarity, do you really mean .023% or 2.3%? One way or the other, I bet just about all of them after affiliated with some church or religion.

  • over the edge

    @ robertallen1
    no i meant 0.023% or 700 of roughly 3 million scientists worldwide source "Creationism's Trojan horse: the wedge of intelligent design" 2007 edition page 172

  • over the edge

    i believe that this is a subject we both have great interest in. i am not sure if you already know this (i believe your knowledge is greater then mine on this subject) but i found this interesting.John Wells of Cornell university studied corals and realized that they have daily and yearly rings. he used that knowledge as well as the fact that the earth rotation is slowing down to confirm the dates of radio carbon dated fossils. as the earth would have more days per year in the past he counted the rings of coral fossils and dated them according to the days per year. these dates matched the radio carbon dating findings.

  • Epicurus

    excellent information, and yes i have that book and have read it. but thanks for the pdf now i can convert it and put it on my kobo!

  • Peter Tait

    Not necessarily, some of them may fall under the belief of ancient aliens, ancient hyper-intelligence or spirituality of all-as-one (being the belief of the universe and the cosmos including all supposed dimensions of it being interlinked). Don't just throw arguments out based on your own dislike or disregard for religion or faith. Because at the heart of all things there lies some truth, I mean over and over again science fiction is becoming science fact and science fact is becoming science false. It's all part of the human evolution and thinking. Progress is part of being human and so is a belief in a sense of some greater worth.

    All we can do is look at the evidence and propose our own opinion or thesis. Some are true and some are false. In part or in total. We just have to accept there are some things, for the time being, we cannot possibly understand. But I look forward to finding the answers.

  • refix

    i have even found atheist webside where they say that religion is nonsense but evolution theory is beyond nonsense and no reasonable mind can agree with it.. so i agree that it is misleading to connect anti-darwinism just and strictly with religion.. it is often state of once mind not the state of religion.. believe or not many religious people dont take dogmas of the church for granted and can think on treir own..

  • Guest

    I don't suppose you noticed that the statement does not actually endorse Creationism/ ID as well as the fact that a large amount of those listed have absolutely no credentials concerning evolutionary biology or of subject matter even related to it. That .023% gets even smaller when you take out the computer science, general mathematics, statistics, astrophysics, philosophy, etc, ...

  • DZoolander1

    Kenneth R. Miller.

  • Regan Bender

    Yes you in the back with the red bowtie.

    Ya hi. My question is for Mr. Dawkins and God. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

  • Guest

    What are dissmiliarities?

  • Guest

    similarities that aren't the same ! :))

  • Guest

    I was giving a hard time to Robertallen1 for being the connaisseur of the English language and harpooning people constantly about their mistakes. But thanks.

  • robertallen1


  • Guest

    Sorry Az, I was doing the same but the sarcasm didn't show in my writing. Wasn't aiming that at you xxx It just struck me as a silly word, contradictory. Should have made myself unmurkier!

  • Guest

    Although he prides himself in having great control over the English language and often over everyone here, his typos are all over his posts. The thread in Stephen Fry' Planet Word sent me on a search to present him the mirror...reminds me of The Trouble With Experts.
    I can be bad sometimes.
    We have to remind ourselves that this site is not only for the English speaking crowd, people of all countries come here and many have to make a lot of efforts to write a comment...even the english speaking crowd is not always as literate as some people of other languages.
    I think it's great how this site allows everyone to discuss together in one big melting pot of mishmash words.
    But enough with this!

  • Guest

    Couldn't have said it better myself :)

  • Cineplex

    Darwin was a freemason; his father and Grandfather were also before him.

  • Guest

    And it is a false pride he has. His English is nothing if not clunky and tedious. That alone should tell you he has no real understanding of the language.

  • Nick Halpin

    @robertallen1 : Another pedant bites the dust lol

  • Nick Halpin

    If you really believe that twaddle I feel sorry for you.

  • Nick Halpin

    Why are you bothering to argue about the bible? It's like believing the Quran / Koran / Torah. They are all nonsense !

  • robertallen1

    You're right, but it gives me an opportunity to practice writing and organization.

  • Nonmaleficence

    OMG hilarious. In the third video at 15:15 when he is describing the transition of the jaw and bones of the inner ear, she takes a big gulp in and has nothing to say.

  • rickydisqus

    I am a computer programmer and have written many thousand lines of code in my days. I am familiar with many computer programming languages. The programming language and code found in nature is so advanced that we can hardly comprehend. A person has to be crazy to believe that there isn't a designer / programmer. -- Ricky

  • rickydisqus

    Just look at a simple piece of paper. Now try hard to convince yourself that it was a product of chance? Evolution? If you cannot, how can you believe the same about the whole universe?

  • Epicurus

    if you think evolution works on chance you clearly dont know what evolution is.

  • Epicurus

    I am a psychologist and anthropologist and I have studied biology and evolution for many years and can tell you there is nothing about DNA that says it has to be created by a magical god. sorry, but your computer programming gives you NO say in biology. go back to your office now and let the scientists do the big boy work.

  • rickydisqus

    Psychologists and anthropologists are scientists and computer scientists are not? Which subject in psychology and anthropology taught you about programming languages? Are you the only one around who have studied biology? It is a requirement for most of us too. I am the one who is qualified to talk about programming and you are not.
    The psalmist says, "In his pride the wicked does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God." Psalms 10:4
    I would suppose if evolution does not work on chance, it must be based on some kind of natural law or design? Glad you are coming around to my side. I do believe that there are many well designed natural laws.

  • over the edge

    first lets call it as it is. you are a creationist. judging from your posts you believe in god , so lets drop designer and just say god. second computer science is as much a part of science as political science is. the term is used to define a way of collecting knowledge and approaching a subject .i was a programmer and i am not insulting the knowledge or effort required. can you please show me where evolutionary theory says we came about by chance? also your examples of a program or a piece of paper are irrelevant. you compare living to non living .next evolution has nothing to do with the origins of the universe or the origins of life . instead of showing your ignorance of evolution how about you provide your empirical evidence for your beliefs and i will show the empirical evidence for evolution and we will compare notes lastly (so i know what flavor of creationist you are) how old do you believe the earth is and were we (and all living things) created at the same time and as they appear today?

  • robertallen1

    Complexity does not imply a designer.

  • robertallen1

    Comparing the synthetic to the non-synthetic is like comparing apples to . . .

  • robertallen1

    "I would suppose if evolution does not work on chance, it must be based on some kind of natural law or design." What an ignorant non sequitur--and from a computer programmer yet.

    However, I'm happy to see that you approve of many of the natural laws, just as I approve of many computer programs.

    In the future, spare us your puling, irrelevant quotations!

  • Epicurus

    "Psychologists and anthropologists are scientists and computer scientists are not?"

    computer sciences do not relate to the life sciences. very different.

    "Which subject in psychology and anthropology taught you about programming languages?"

    linguistics did and linguistic anthropology.

    "Are you the only one around who have studied biology?"

    in university with a focus on evolution. you literally can not learn biology without evolution, otherwise nothing makes sense. could you explain to me why god would design our eye upside down, or give us wisdom teeth? i know evolution can!

    " I am the one who is qualified to talk about programming and you are not."

    yes computer programming. not DNA.

    "The psalmist says, "In his pride the wicked does not seek him; in all his thoughts there is no room for God." Psalms 10:4"

    yes so what? in the quran it says "If only they [i.e. Christians] had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil" (5:66).

    they are both JUST BOOKS. they are not inerrant.

    "I would suppose if evolution does not work on chance, it must be based on some kind of natural law or design?"

    that is as stupid as saying that water turns into ice in cold environments because an intelligent force is making the molecules slow down....NATURAL SELECTION, works on mutations to create evolution.

    go back to school and take something that is worth while and will actually let you understand the world you live in rather than just useless degrees that get you money.

  • robertallen1

    Well put, as usual.

    But for my own enlightenment, I don't see how liguistics as I know it relates to programming languages. Also, what is linguistic anthropology?

    As for your last paragraph, you're right; most people equate learning with the dollar--this makes Cantor and Abel failures.

  • Epicurus

    oh goodness linguistic anthropology is possibly the only thing more tedious and boring than just plain linguistics.

    it looks at how languages in different cultures influence those cultures. pretty complex but VERY interesting.

    if you havent, check out the documentary, Stephen Fry's Planet Word. it is basically linguistic anthropology. we used to have it on the site but it was taken down. im sure you can find it as a torrent.

  • robertallen1

    Thanks for the reply, but there seems to be a contradiction. In your first paragraph, you describe linguistic anthropology as tedious and in the second very interesting. Which is it? (And yes, I know the judgment is subjective.)

    My own studies, however superficial, indicate that basically culture influences (reflects) languages, not the other way around. Your thoughts.

  • Epicurus

    tedious to begin to grasp then once you get the core theories it is interesting.

    also learning it in a lecture hall by a boring dry professor is tedious but watching Stephen Fry explore swearing makes it interesting.

    if you look up the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis you will see that they suggest it might be the other way around.

    take the example of certain languages that use masculine and feminine to describe particular nouns. think of the word Bridge in German, it is die Brücke, which is feminine. when asked to describe a bridge they give it very feminine features such as beautiful, fragile, peaceful, etc.

    whereas spanish speakers use the word el puente for bridge and it is masculine. when asked to describe a bridge they will use terms like strong, sturdy, dangerous, tough.

    look up studies by Lera Boroditsky.

  • robertallen1

    Perhaps I was unclear. When I meant language, I implied its structure.

    However, I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that in general, a Mexican will describe a bridge in basically the same way as a Castillian, a Peruvian in the same way as a Puerto Rican, a Chilean in the same way as a Fillipino? Even if this generalization is correct (which I gravely doubt), German has perfectly idiomatic ways of describing a bridge in the "Spanish" style and vice versa as to Spanish. In English, bridge, like almost all nouns, neuter.

    Under this hypothesis, again generalization aside, does this influence how an Englishman would describe a bridge, as opposed to an American, as opposed to an Australian?

    The word force is feminine in French. Does that mean that Frenchmen or French speakers will generally describe it in what might be considered feminine terms? I doubt it.

    Thus, what you refer to are merely word choices which have little to do with language itself and are perhaps more the result of social conditioning.

    As for language (or linguistic) structure, in Spanish the verb "to hope" takes the subjunctive, in French (which uses a cognate) it takes the indicative. Does this tell us anything about its speakers, French or otherwise? I can't say.

    Another example of linguistic structure: In the Greek of Homer, you could not be the agent of obligation. In other words, there was no way to say "I have to go" (the optative did not come till about 300 years later). There had to be a third person making or bidding you to go. What does this tell us about the relationship of the gods to the human characters in the Iliad and the Odyssey?

    But perhaps I digress.

    From your description, linguistic anthropology seems to have little to do with actual linguistics, or at least linguistics as I know it.

  • Epicurus

    according to the research of Lera Boroditsky, yes the language people use will strongly influence the way they perceive the world.

    it may seem counter intuitive but thats the great thing about anthropology. it is often ethnographic so we go into all the cultures and ask them these questions rather than just base it off our own intuition.

  • robertallen1

    This might sound dense, but I fail to see how the words a person chooses has anything to do with the structure of the language he speaks.

    Let's say a person of Spanish origin also speaks German. Is he going to describe a bridge one way in his native language and another in his second language? Even if he describes a bridge the same way in both languages, what effect on the structure of the languages does this have?

    I have nothing against the counterintuitive and perhaps I'm missing something, but the more I think about it, the less sense this makes--
    or perhaps linguistic anthropology has nothing to do with what I am discussing.

  • robertallen1

    Thank you. Will read.

    But how do you get the address of a website to appear without getting a moderator comment?

  • Epicurus

    lol be a moderator.

  • robertallen1

    O.K. How does one become a moderator?

  • Epicurus

    long standing good relations with vlatko and the site.

  • robertallen1

    Well, according to you, I have over 420 posts.  Does that count for anything?

  • Epicurus

    lol i dont think thats enough. dont worry you dont want it. you have to go through insane comments that have been put in moderation and they are all in caps or have swearing or racism or just religiousity, but you have to grit your teeth and let it go. lol

    if you dont want the links going to moderation just put spaces wherever there is a . in the link

    youtube . com

  • knowledgeizpower

    seems like that must be a serious position guess someone has to do it. i wonder if vlatko has enough help i know a responsible person, positive with great people skills lol...Peace

  • Krissy

    I don't think that Darwin's Theory is exactly correct. If Natural selection says for say " due to squirrels eating a trees acorns, a tree will only produce so many acorns at a certain time." am i right? But trees can't think. Why does evolution say that we are all once made from nearly the same embryo millions and millions of years ago? Humans are clearly different than than other animal. Animals may be closely related,and even with the nearly the same genetics. But evolution is only an idea its not the only way. The world being made of a hot,dense, microscopic piece of matter? and then suddenly bursting? I believe these are just sciences best ways to explain how things are and how its orginated.

  • robertallen1

    You must learn to know something about what you write before you write about it and pay no heed to the type of people I think you have been listening to.

    1. The most elementary study of biology and especially comparative anatomy would demonstrate to you that man is really no different from the other animals, except for one ability--and this does not make him "clearly" different.

    2. A cursory look at natural selection (which is what I think you are referring to) would make you realize that it deals with survival based on adaptability to environment. Squirrels eating acorns has nothing to do with it.

    3. Contrary to what I believe you have been told, evolution is the only scientifically proved explanation of life's processes which we know of today. If you can come up with anything else as scientific and more accurate, more power to you, but it is highly unlikely. However, remember, anything unscientific is worthless.

    4 Try to put a little sense into what you write. "The world being made of a hot, dense, microscopic piece of matter? and then suddenly bursting?" is not only an incomplete sentence but shows an appalling lack of education and logic. How can the earth be a "dense, microscopic piece of matter?"

    So far, you are typical of many of the ignoramuses who post here, but you can cure that.

  • oddsrhuge

    I like your response. I still have to suggest that, regardless of your argument, you are still battling 1000's of years of indoctrination.

    Science still has to prove itself...even though it has 10's of 1,000,000's of years of provable facts.

    The "bible" don't you know, needs no explanation. It IS the word of GOD. Therefore, right or left, or in between...we'll never know till God tells us.

    Til then, please accept it as the "truth

    Kind regards,

    Some other guy with an opinion

  • robertallen1

    I hope you're not serious!

  • a_no_n

    TJ said: there is one absolute question that science, due to the setup of its laws, can not answer. that is the last WHY question.

    the answer, is very similar to the one that my mum used to give me when i asked that question. Because.

    If you want to ask a really interesting why question, then why the hell would a god of infinite power, waste all his time on this tedious sh1t? when it quite clearly doesn't benefit him, us or anything else.

  • pan thor

    I think he's serious

  • pan thor

    Squirrels eat acorns because it is GOD'S WILL. Set your blasphemous 'science' aside for one moment and look at this example with unbiased eyes.

    In all the forest probably the least tasty thing to eat would be acorns. They are very, very bitter. There are lots of berries and edible fungi, are there not? So why would squirrels CHOOSE to eat something unpleasant? Do you really thin an animal would EVOLVE to eat something it doesn't like simply to retro-prove Darwin's ill thought out theory?

    Why do Darwinists insist on trying to prove an unbelievable nonsense that only serves to make them unhappy?

  • robertallen1

    They eat them for nutrition. Did it ever occur to you that what might taste bitter to us might not taste bitter to squirrels or perhaps that squirrels like the bitter taste?

    Evolution has nothing to do with what animals eat.

    So leave your ignorance of evolution and your idiotic religion out of it.

  • oddsrhuge

    How could I be serious? We are talking about the serious argument of Faith...

    Yewah, I take it all back.

    The Bible should be taken as fact. Nothing else on earth matters....

    How silly of me, to suggest otherwise. Now I will pray for forgiveness...

    Dog(oops, dyslexia, I meant OGD), told me, I am forgiven. Now I can go back outside and play.

  • robertallen1

    Again, I wonder if you're serious.

  • oddsrhuge

    I am starting to realize that people don't read posts past the first line or two. Then they formulate these amazing arguments...

    I have had a few people agree with me in their reply, while yelling at me, as to how misguided my ideas are in the most vehement terms....hmmmm

    Oh well, I'll keep plugging away. After all, my take is still only an opinion.

  • robertallen1

    I have no idea what you believe and I don't like jokesters.

  • Turnbull McGillicuddy

    I am so fed up with the religulous refusing to accept evolution in spite of the mountains of evidence that proves it.

    If you wish to believe Yahweh (or the entity It created; Satan {interesting Yahweh is not powerful enough to control Its own creations}) was a prankster deity and hid fossils to make believe evo happened when it really (in your view) did not, than do so in the privacy of your own home not the public schools.

    It is bad enough you religulous are screwing up your children's minds, you do not have a right to warp every school child in America to your dark side, superstitious, bronze age misinterpretations of your so-called holy book written by men to hold down anyone who did not look like them and subjugate women.

    If you want to believe in religion in spite of all the evil it has caused, than go right ahead, it is your right to do so. However do as your Jesus told you and pray quietly in your closet, quit forcing it on the public.

    Peace and Love

  • robertallen1

    Hooray! I like your exposition of Yahweh's lack of control via Satan. Interestingly, the term Satan is Greek for accuser and in older literature he wasn't the sinister being he later came to be.

    As for the schools, the term religious education seems almost like an oxymoron.

    On a more personal note, I like subjugating women. The problem is that I'm not very good at it.

  • Turnbull McGillicuddy

    Careful pan thor; Yahweh's will (or as you say:"GOD'S WILL ") is a sophistic argument. If your neighbor runs over your child playing in his driveway; is that "GOD'S WILL ?"

  • robertallen1

    Two possibilities, both epitomized in the OT:

    1. God is benevolent.

    2. God is p.o.'d about something.

  • Turnbull McGillicuddy

    Robert Allen - thanks for your comment.

    I agree with your assessment of "Satan". I understand the title: "The Satan" was an honorable title among ancient Jews which meant what you mentioned and more.

    A phrase deriving, or an echo, of that ancient time is: "Devil's Advocate." Meaning a person appointed to give the minority view on a subject or more appropriately, to ask the hard questions others are afraid to ask.

    In the Book of Job see how Yahweh and Satan are buddies sitting around bull****ting when a friendly argument ensues about the nature of worship so they bet each other on how much s*** can be piled on Job and still have him respond as a obsequious twit.

    It was not until the early Christians broke from the Jews and found the specter of Satan ideal for 'demonizing' those who did not agree with them did "The Satan" gradually stop being an honorific and become a constantly embellished myth to frighten children and adults.

  • handcycle

    How can I take the cotent of the Bible seriously, when only one of the major books of the bible speaks of an earthquake on the day of the crucifixion and the three others do not. Or why is it that there isn't a story told of Jesus in any other text from any country or culture, untill the third century? Or why is it that there wasn't anything written about Jesus while he was alive? And why do believers believe a document that was supposedly inspired yet includes so many contradictions? Maybe because none of the authors the bible were alive when any of these myths would have taken place.

  • over the edge

    @ vlatko, epicurus and achems
    thanks for another year of great work and the education. if as admin and moderators the the comments you see before moderation are crazier than the ones posted you all deserve a couple of drinks lol. and merry xmas to all the posters here (even those i argue with lol)

  • Achems_Razor

    Merry Xmas to you also, yes, before moderation some of the comments are....I don't think crazy would describe it. lol

  • Colette Warde

    I enjoyed watching this very much. Although, I think Mr. Dawkins was a little rough on the teachers who don't openly challenge their students beliefs in god or the bible. The teachers present the material and it's up to the individual to either accept it or not or to do more research or not. Other then that, I found the doc to be very well done and a nice tribute to Charles Darwin. I learned a lot and I am grateful for that. Thank you!

  • oddsrhuge

    Note to self: Subtle sarcasm, falls upon deaf ears of the "supposed intelligentsia.

  • Benjamin Clarkson

    read a book please

  • Benjamin Clarkson

    Neither can squirrels. Evolution is a mechanical process. You are basically taking a robot with a certain software which is chemically programmed, shaking up the programming via sexual reproduction, and then seeing which software (DNA) survives to shake up another branch.
    Also, it isn't a "theory" as in postulation, it is a "theory" as in the "theory of gravity". Evolution is a cold fact. We know that absolutely. Almost all modern medicine is based on it, and all genetic science confirms it. You do not have the wiggle room to not believe it and to square your world view with reality.

  • Mistymoo

    any chance we could be nice to each other on here???

  • robertallen1


  • Epicurus

    lol just saw this comment today. thanks for that. you have a great new year also and hope you had a good christmas.

    lol you have no idea how crazy some of the comments are...but achems is a machine when it comes to moderating. he seems to be doing it by the hour sometimes lol.

  • Epicurus

    i think the teachers are meant to teach the material not just present it. they are to teach what is correct.

    until we start teaching kids logic at younger ages we still need to instruct them on what is correct or we will have them deciding for themselves that storks bring babies.

  • Ethan Thputnik Herman

    One, considering the fact that religion is not so much as SUGGESTED in public schools offers a rather biased view. Public schools end up suggesting evolution and natural selection, but never religion. What's "scandalous" is that only one side of the argument is presented. Presented, not forced, but only one nonetheless. Plenty of the Bible has content written about Jesus while he was alive. Secondly, did you know that Christians say "OH MY DARWIN!!" when we're freaked or something? Yeah, true story. Thirdly, not once had Mr. Dawkins ever present a single piece of viable evidence to support his case. It was all mostly theory and concept after theory and concept. One cannot consider an idea of concept a "fact" until proven, and nothing can actually be proven in the scientific realm. Time does indeed change things, but not the way animals breed. Humans make love because it's fun. Animals breed whilst keeping a hierarchy of sorts in mind: elites breed with elites. This allows for a section of the said species to possess a higher rate of survival. Fourthly, I really would love to see some data, charts, and flowsheets. Any form of data, hit me with it. My Christian belief system is completely based on faith. Well, not entirely. Many towns, cities, locations, and landmarks (usually large boulders) have been mentioned in the bible, THEN discovered. Do the math; I'm sure you know what I mean.

    I saw a post someways down a-there about how the early Christians "broke" from the Jews. Sadly, most of you have never actually READ the Bible at all. It really is very obvious. Please don't even try to argue with me on this one. Go read it. Then you know that, based on faith, 12 dudes (they had jobs and girlfriends) left their lives to follow some stranger who wasn't famous, good-looking, strong, or anything physically special. This dude apparently healed people who were lame, sick, maimed, dying, and even dead. I believe that? I believe that in faith. So yeah, this dude named Jesus blew the ideas and not-entirely-true teachings of highly esteemed teachers (basically, the rest of the population were kept st*pid - but it wasn't like that for the majority of the Judaic population) out of the water, pissed 'em off, and so they killed him because he made them look like complete m*rons. He died for us. At least, that's my faith speaking. You know, most people imagine. We dream, we think. We aspire. We hope. And we rationalize. But hope and dreaming always win the fight. That's why we're human, not heartless s.o.b.'s.

    I've got just as little (and much, if you want to speak on actual terms here) [VIABLE] evidence to support my claims as evolutionists do. I don't believe either side will win until the end days. Then we'll find out.

    I formed, ohh, roughly 80 counter-arguments against Dawkins during he first hour of this show. And the surprising thing is that they were formed effortlessly.

    One question: How DID apes "evolve" into human beings? I've read over 12 Biology books over the past four years. They've all stated that there is no "link" between Apes and humans. None at all. Until I see actually hard evidence, based on viable research with results agreed upon by 100% of all the types of scientists in the world, the theory of evolution is kaput. If it's a theory, it isn't a "cold hard fact". That logic just fails me. Gravity is a theory, sure. How do we know it's not the idea of being pulled to a large object being constantly transmitted via brainwaves from all across planet earth, that's doing it? Like a telepathic signal? Stupid concept, yeahhh, but the same principles apply. Don't say it's a cold hard fact. It isn't. In all honesty, BOTH sides of the argument has serious gaps in walls of evidence. Oh, by the way, the fossil contained in the rock one of the students found was a giant, calcified milipede. Milipedes, when in their death throes, often curl up into a spiral with their head placed at the center.

    I'd rather believe that when I die, it ain't gonna be just a dead, black, empty stop for me. Nah. I'd think that, as such intelligent creatures that we humans are, we're here for a much greater purpose than just tiddle along and live our lives, as if they were worthless.

    In short, if the theory of evolution really is indeed the "cold, hard, undeniable [UNDENIABLE, he says. Psh, I'll come up with a counter-example for every argument you raise up] truth [truth? really? Watch your choice of words, please]", then most everyone would have accepted it by now. But see, the only reason only 32% of scientists (not even talking about the normal population of the world here) actually have a firm faith in this theory is that there's no evidence VIABLE evidence.

    I think I should sleep now. Way past my bed time. xD

  • Ethan Thputnik Herman

    Also, carbon dating is a handful of cat puke. I'm sure we can all agree on that. Secondly, during the ages also known as the "Bible times", they didn't have printing presses. You wanted paper? You killed a goat, gutted it, skinned it, dried the skin out, and boom, 6 sheets of crappy paper right there. This took 8 months to do. Then, you had to make the ink by crushing seashells, then mixing the powder with camel piss and wheat soaked in water. Thirdly, if you wanted to shoot your buddy an e-mail, you'd walk 20 miles. It would take you a day or two, if you were lucky. These manuscripts weren't in great condition by the time they reached their final destination, and even then, a good amount of them were lost or destroyed. Of course they'll vary, no duh. A brick could have pointed that out. Also, the changes were minor. Very minor. As in, what color clothing what person was wearing. And considering that King James had his OWN version of the bible written (based on what they had previously, yes, but still a different version), and considering that most churches (mainly the Catholic church, which 1. places Mary as a goddess of sorts, putting her above God, and 2. believes you can get to heaven by being good [wait, whut? Really? If that's the case, we're all screwed over. Times ten.], thus making Catholics NOT Christians at all, by definition) uses this copy, dang. Of course it's gonna be blurry.

    I'll come up with more sound defenses tomorrow. Time to sleep.

  • Ethan Thputnik Herman

    One, considering the fact that religion is not so much as SUGGESTED in public schools offers a rather biased view. Public schools end up suggesting evolution and natural selection, but never religion. What's "scandalous" is that only one side of the argument is presented. Presented, not forced, but only one nonetheless. Plenty of the Bible has content written about Jesus while he was alive. Secondly, did you know that Christians say "OH MY DARWIN!!" when we're freaked or something? Yeah, true story. Thirdly, not once had Mr. Dawkins ever present a single piece of viable evidence to support his case. It was all mostly theory and concept after theory and concept. One cannot consider an idea of concept a "fact" until proven, and nothing can actually be proven in the scientific realm. Time does indeed change things, but not the way animals breed. Humans make love because it's fun. Animals breed whilst keeping a hierarchy of sorts in mind: elites breed with elites. This allows for a section of the said species to possess a higher rate of survival. Fourthly, I really would love to see some data, charts, and flowsheets. Any form of data, hit me with it. My Christian belief system is completely based on faith. Well, not entirely. Many towns, cities, locations, and landmarks (usually large boulders) have been mentioned in the bible, THEN discovered. Do the math; I'm sure you know what I mean.

    I saw a post someways down a-there about how the early Christians "broke" from the Jews. Sadly, most of you have never actually READ the Bible at all. It really is very obvious. Please don't even try to argue with me on this one. Go read it. Then you know that, based on faith, 12 dudes (they had jobs and girlfriends) left their lives to follow some stranger who wasn't famous, good-looking, strong, or anything physically special. This dude apparently healed people who were lame, sick, maimed, dying, and even dead. I believe that? I believe that in faith. So yeah, this dude named Jesus blew the ideas and not-entirely-true teachings of highly esteemed teachers (basically, the rest of the population were kept stupid - but it wasn't like that for the majority of the Judaic population) out of the water, pissed 'em off, and so they killed him because he made them look like complete morons. He died for us. At least, that's my faith speaking. You know, most people imagine. We dream, we think. We aspire. We hope. And we rationalize. But hope and dreaming always win the fight. That's why we're human, not heartless s.o.b.'s.

    I've got just as little (and much, if you want to speak on actual terms here) [VIABLE] evidence to support my claims as evolutionists do. I don't believe either side will win until the end days. Then we'll find out.

    I formed, ohh, roughly 80 counter-arguments against Dawkins during he first hour of this show. And the surprising thing is that they were formed effortlessly.

    One question: How DID apes "evolve" into human beings? I've read over 12 Biology books over the past four years. They've all stated that there is no "link" between Apes and humans. None at all. Until I see actually hard evidence, based on viable research with results agreed upon by 100% of all the types of scientists in the world, the theory of evolution is kaput. If it's a theory, it isn't a "cold hard fact". That logic just fails me. Gravity is a theory, sure. How do we know it's not the idea of being pulled to a large object being constantly transmitted via brainwaves from all across planet earth, that's doing it? Like a telepathic signal? Stupid concept, yeahhh, but the same principles apply. Don't say it's a cold hard fact. It isn't. In all honesty, BOTH sides of the argument has serious gaps in walls of evidence. Oh, by the way, the fossil contained in the rock one of the students found was a giant, calcified milipede. Milipedes, when in their death throes, often curl up into a spiral with their head placed at the center.

    I'd rather believe that when I die, it ain't gonna be just a dead, black, empty stop for me. Nah. I'd think that, as such intelligent creatures that we humans are, we're here for a much greater purpose than just tiddle along and live our lives, as if they were worthless.

    In short, if the theory of evolution really is indeed the "cold, hard, undeniable [UNDENIABLE, he says. Psh, I'll come up with a counter-example for every argument you raise up] truth [truth? really? Watch your choice of words, please]", then most everyone would have accepted it by now. But see, the only reason only 32% of scientists (not even talking about the normal population of the world here) actually have a firm faith in this theory is that there's no evidence VIABLE evidence.

    I think I should sleep now. Way past my bed time. xD

  • robertallen1


  • robertallen1

    You need more than sleep, such as courses in radiometrics and organization of thoughts.

  • Aleteia

    For God sake, NO! What you say opens the door for manipulation! Teachers need to teach students critical thinking! If they start to teach what is "correct" (what is correct?) the students will be a pack of brainwashed semi-apes.
    We know bits of truths, who can have the claim that is in the possession of truth?

  • Aleteia

    I would never enter into a discussion about the existence or non-existence of a deity via Darwin's theory of evolution. One of the greatest scholar in history of religion I. P. Culiano - a true rennaissance man with a very broad education at one point studied fractals and said that paradoxically in the Middle Age religion and physics became divergent and slowly physics gained authority over the belief in God, but physics at one point will be able to prove that God exist.
    Things are not randomly happen, that should make us think seriously!

  • Aleteia

    Maybe God allows it for a reason, He has the big picture we don't.
    As light and darkness exist, God and dark angels exist. When we are losing our divine protection because of sins, the evil can harm us.
    If you can access the Filocalia volumes the pure wisdom of the early Christian saints, you will not ask such questions anymore!

  • Aleteia

    That must lead to frustration.

  • Aleteia

    Religion didn't cause evil but humans who used it inappropriately. Those who really changed and became spiritual did a lot of great things.
    I believe in evolution but that doesn't prove that God doesn't exist. I take the book of creation as a metaphor.

  • Aleteia

    Poor soul.

  • Aleteia

    Why are atheists bothered by someone who believes? Why not practicing tolerance?
    We have free will and we can choose.

  • Aleteia

    There is a lot for you to study.

  • Aleteia

    "you are still battling 1000's of years of indoctrination". Which religion do you refer to? Christianity exists for more than 19 centuries, Budhism more, Islam about 13 centuries, Hinduism is older, make it more clear please. Why associating religion only with Christianity?

  • Aleteia

    Sory but your ego is bigger than the amount of knowledge.
    These are not strong arguments that dismiss God's existence.
    Don't live with the illusion that atheists are the smart guys and the religious are ignoramuses. The more you will read you will meet the writings of highly educated religious scholars!

  • Aleteia

    "....racism and religiousity...." these are among the popular labels that people just throw in discussions, instead of thinking.

  • Aleteia

    You are talking about syntax (the words themselves which are arbitrary) and semantics (the meaning). Different forms/syntax can have the same semantics.

  • Aleteia

    However cognitive psychologists found that the brain doesn't use only verbal code. For instance artists "see" the world mainly in images of vibrations/sounds, etc.

  • robertallen1


  • Aleteia

    Thanks God we have metacognitive abilities so are not totally under the powers of a culture. Plus as I mentioned in another reply, our brain uses different codes nit just the verbal (from cognitive psychology)

  • Aleteia

    Do you think that your claim which is not sustained by rationale is strong enought to prove that there was no intelligent designer of the universe?

  • Aleteia

    First of all God is with capital letters, Over The Edge.
    Loosen up you ego.

  • Aleteia

    Actually I don't think that God should be approached rationally. Belief is another realm. We consider that God is omniscient, omnipotent, etc. can we trully understand the complexity of such being?
    Ants cannot understand the complexity of a human being, analogically humans cannot understand the existence of God, eventually through extatic experiences; saints who lived accoding to the Scripture, prayed, fasted, meditated, sometimes were rewarded by God and had extatic experiences. One of them was the famous Padre Pio.

  • Aleteia

    I hope you didn't expect to see small letter on the DNA testifying about God.
    Anyway what you say doesn't prove that God doesn't exist, just that you choose not to believe.

  • Aleteia

    In research I've heard all the time that things are random, but when studying fractals we see that some form appears again and again and that is counter-randomness. Hooha

  • Aleteia

    Nonsense ..... for you.

  • Aleteia

    Connaisseur is correct.

  • Aleteia

    Jesus is not mentioned only in the Gospels but in the writings of ancient historians.
    We should not forget that it was by word of mouth eye witnesses transmitted the story, the essence is important.

  • Aleteia

    Fast for 40 days (as Jesus, Mahatma Ghandi, and other spiritual leaders did), repent, pray and maybe God will answer Himself.

  • robertallen1


    In response to your various posts:

    1. Science only in science classes. Non-scientific religious nonsense such as intelligent design has no place in the classroom.

    2. You can also ask why believers are bothered by atheists? Personally I'm bothered by religionists not only because most are basically ignorant, but because they try to spread their ignorance. I refuse to tolerate dogma, conjecture, superstition and lack of scholarship passing as knowledge.

    3. In general, modern day atheists (unfortunately there's no better or more accurate term for them) are in general much smarter and better educated than religionists. I'll pit Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett and Sam Harris against any one of them.

    4. What do you mean by religious scholarship, biblical scholarship perhaps or comparative religion or religious history. Now, these are valid fields of study. Anything outside this general purview (i.e., anything normative) is not scholarship.

    5. How do you know so much about "god." And don't mention Filocalia. It's authors knew no more about "god" than anyone else.

    6. What do fractals (or fractal geometry) have to do with with a supreme being or for that matter with religion as you seem to assert?

    7. While we're on the meanings of words, syntax does not mean the words themselves, but rather the order in which they are placed. The only time syntax affects semantics is when the order of the words changes meaning. This happens in non-inflected languages such as English, French, Spanish. It could never happen in Latin.

    8. What makes you think that things don't happen at random, that everything's preordained, ergo there is no such thing as probability?

    I will not treat what I believe to be the depth of your knowledge for we have been admonished by the administration to be civil and polite.

  • robertallen1


    You seem to get things wrong. I never said there was no creator--I stated that there has been nothing so far as to make me believe in one (or two or three), but that stating that something is irreducibly complex (which is impossible) and then a priori attributing it to a creator is intellectually dishonest and certainly not science. I hope this clarifies this issue for you.

  • Aleteia

    Is he Jew?

  • Aleteia

    I've heard so many times "open minded" climed by people who were not open minded at all. Claiming and being open minded are two different things.

  • over the edge

    out of everything i posted the fact i didn't capitalize god is what you choose to bring up? followed up by "Loosen up you ego. " really? i believe we (humans) are completely insignificant when you look at the age and vastness of the universe. you on the other hand believe that everything was "created" just for us and i have an ego ? also "We should not forget that it was by word of mouth eye witnesses transmitted the story, the essence is important" so you know they were eye witness testimonies? why then are there so many contradictions with itself,logic and history? and if it only the essence that is important then it is not a book of facts only moral tales.

  • Aleteia

    Philosophy is "the" science, is like an axle and all other disciplines revolve around.

  • Aleteia

    Science appeared because Christianity (like it or not) gave opportunity to study nature first in monasteries, science developed over the centuries but it needed that environment. Comparing to other societies, Christian world was the most fertile for technology development.
    What you say about Mother Theresa shows you character which, sorry to say, it doesn't look kosher.
    Christianity exactly promoted the idea of equality and that each person matters.
    Your whole writing is so rudimentary! Where did you learn?

  • Epicurus

    can you link some research?

  • Achems_Razor


    Who said your gods should be written in capital letters, Hmm?
    Are you going to tell the inquisition on us, burning at the stake is so passe. Are you afraid of thunderbolts from the sky maybe?

  • Epicurus

    and what you say doesnt prove that fairies dont exist. we cant prove a negative. i can certainly refute any positive claim you make about the existence of any god making your belief irrational.

  • Epicurus

    who cares what parts you choose to cherry pick christianity it true? are the claims made about a god and a god man TRUE? or are they stories?

  • Epicurus

    in what research and when where and how do you study fractals in nature?

  • Epicurus

    when we teach geology, maths, sciences, etc we are teaching objective observable facts. we are not brainwashing.

  • robertallen1

    In response to more of your posts:

    1. The word god does not have to be capitalized, e.g., music is my god.

    2. Repetition is no evidence of lack of randomness. Suppose one tosses three heads in a row? It strains the senses to regard this as preordained, the same with evolution.

    3. Which ancient historians mention Christ (and by these I mean those fairly contemporary to him)? For your information, there are only two non-biblical sources and both of these are just a few words and, if I recall, they don't even use the name Jesus Christ.

    4. Do you have any idea how unreliable hand-me-down testimony is? Do you realize that, contrary to what you write, we have no eye-witness testimony of the crucifiction or for that matter of anything else pertaining to the person called Jesus and that Gospels were not named for their attributed authors until later? Have you ever taken a course in biblical history or read up on the subject?

    5. There's a fine documentary on this site entitled "Lost Gospels." Perhaps if you were to view it, you would see how your beloved "essence" changed radically throughout the first two or three centuries.

    6. When you have to justify the concept of a god by stating that it cannot be approached rationally (i.e., we have to take your word for it) then your whole "thinking" is no good, for by pushing for the abrogation of all reasoning, you render yourself pathetic and inferior and a poor one for telling people how to lead their lives and what to think as you have been doing all afternooon in your posts.

  • robertallen1

    What a stupid question! Find out for yourself!

  • robertallen1

    As usual, you have it all wrong--and in this case because you don't know your history. For centuries, the church was science's worst enemy. Look at Galileo, Copernicus and others. Throughout the Middle Ages, its science was basically aristotelean--and aristotle was not even a scientist. Anyone who went against an earth-centered universe or promoted the idea of the infinite or the infinitessimal was branded a heretic. Is that what you call support for science?

  • over the edge

    "Science appeared because Christianity (like it or not) gave opportunity to study nature first in monasteries," really? the ancient Greeks,Romans,Egyptians and others might disagree with you ."omparing to other societies, Christian world was the most fertile for technology development" maybe you should look into the Great Library of Alexandria . or the fact that from the fall of the Roman empire til the Renaissance science in the christian world was stifled . it was the Muslin world that saved much of our ancient scientific knowledge and learning from the torch of the crusades and the christian church in general.

  • robertallen1

    In an indirect way, you've hit the nail on the head. One main thing these religionists have in common is their ignorance of history.

    Your typo is risible when linked to ancient scientific knowledge and learning.

  • Aleteia

    "basically culture influences (reflects) languages, not the other way around" the dilemma with the hen and the egg.
    Thanks God we have metacognitive abilities and we can choose

  • Aleteia

    I could name you a few books but are not translated in English.

  • robertallen1

    What a cop-out. How about naming them anyway, providing, of course, the names of the authors?

  • Aleteia

    We write names with capital letters, we name the deity God or we could call it Jahve, or Eli, or Elohim or Adonai.
    Why do we write names with capital letters? because they are proper nouns, and because we show respect.

  • Aleteia

    I read every years more than 20 books, I read those books maybe 10-12 years ago, do you think I keep in mind every author?
    A more recent one is: The recent man, a critique of postmodernity, Patapievici is the author.

  • robertallen1

    As usual, you have it wrong. As I have elucidated in a previous post, the word god is not always capitalized. e.g., "He does not believe in a god." So get off it!

    Now, we capitalize the initial letters of names as a sign of respect, e.g., Richard Nixon. Is that why "I" is always capitalized, out of respect for the ego?

    Where do you get your "information?"

  • Aleteia

    Really! I was talking about the science as precursor for the birth of modern physics.
    Did you look in the library of Alexandria? I thought it burned down in 48 BC ....
    The period between the fall of the Roman empire untill the Renaissance was a fertile period just not well known. Many things that came to being later in science and philosophy actually were sown by monks in Christian monasteries.
    You don't impress me with the very familiar rhetoric, "it was the Muslin world that saved much of our ancient scientific knowledge and learning from the torch of the crusades and the christian church in general", modern historians like Boia, demistifies such statements. Crusades need to be understood in that context, and not with the intention to blame, because in this case history becomes a pretext to say something bad about the church.

  • robertallen1

    An internet search turns up nothing for Patapievici whoever he is/was and whatever his credentials or lack thereof might be or have been. Perhaps this author's a figment of your lack of imagination as are all the books which you have read but can't remember.

    Get off it!

  • robertallen1

    You've probably never even opened a history book, but Over the Edge and I have--as a matter of fact (and I think I can speak for Over the Edge on this) many of them. Over the Edge is right and you don't know anything about what you write, for you simply make it up as you go along.

    As proof of your ignorance and deception, the only author named Boia on the internet is a Lucian Boia, a Roumanian writer who wrote debunking Roumanian nationalism. So please don't try to snow. It won't wash!

  • Aleteia

    As usual you interpret wrong.... sorry
    Robert I. Moore: "religious reforms in the XII century, its intellectual rebirth, elaboration of law and governing procedures - mark the transition from a segmented society to a state, a higher culture was imposed (...)". "Consequence, as always, the constitution of a higher level culture enforces the elimination of real or potential rivals."
    The church tried to protect its teachings it took time to define and redefine the borders of what was good knowledge and what not. Through centuries became more and more open to science. It is important to understand the historical context, it is easy for us to stay comfortable in front of the computers and deliver ideas.

  • Aleteia

    Because God/nature likes diversity.

  • Aleteia

    Try to read again my post so you don't waste my time.

  • Aleteia

    Look up for yourself analysis on fractals.

  • Achems_Razor

    What's to respect, no one has ever seen a god/gods, they are invisible, only in peoples minds. Show me a god.

  • Aleteia

    Who cares what parts you choose to cherry pick Christianity denigration.

  • Aleteia

    You can prove whatever you want in your virtual rational world, God still exists. He was before you were born and after you will die.

  • Aleteia

    No, considering you name I think you are more into that.

  • Aleteia

    I can offer you a motto:
    "If you cannot convince, confuse"

  • Aleteia

    Believe me I will find it I am researcher.

  • Achems_Razor

    That my dear is considered an "ad hominem" attack.

  • Aleteia

    1. The word God has to be capitalized when used as proper noun, you gave me an example of common noun.
    2. When the same(=identical) fractals appear again and again that is exactly the opposite of randomness.
    3. Search for yourself the name of ancient historian, you have internet or go to library
    4. I believe the Bible and the testimony of saints who had the vision of crucifixion. If YOU don’t accept what is in the Bible that’s YOUR problem.
    5 I was enrolled in theology classes for three years, we studies the “lost” gospels, their message is not canonic. (Why would you believe the apocryphal writing and not the canonic ones?)
    6. Rationality doesn’t suffice, through enlightenment we can have a different type of knowing, the divine one. I can testify it is amasing.

  • Aleteia

    It is no place here for lengthy papers, dear sir, nor do I have time.

  • Aleteia

    You just proved that atheists are not that smarts.

  • Achems_Razor

    What does he, she, it, look like? You keep saying "he" was it a blue eyed white adonis wearing a white garment, with the Suns" halo around his head Hmm?

  • Aleteia

    One possible answer: touche
    Other possible answer: you've been hurt dear?
    Need counseling?

  • Achems_Razor

    Counselling? You do not even have a clue to what you are talking about on our beloved TDF. never mind being a counsellor.

  • robertallen1

    Within the last 45 minutes, I have received 15 of your rants in addition to the religious drivel you have been sending out all afternoon and into the night. Your comments to Over the Edge and Epicurus, among others, epitomize the ignorant and superstitious attempting to go up against the educated and enlightened and, as expected, failing miserably.

    Furthermore, it is a waste of my time and everyone else's to be pestered by someone like you with nothing to offer. I doubt if anyone here cares what you think you believe or for that matter, what you "think." I also don't believe that anyone here is interested in your fairy-tale concept of a supreme being which is entirely ungermane to this documentary or your untutored ejaculations about fields of study you know nothing about.

    I suggest you read article 9 of the comment policy which militates against using this thread as a personal pulpit such as you have been doing. Failure to discontinue the practice might result in one of the administrators curtailing your posting privileges--and no one would be more delighted about it than I.

  • Epicurus

    all i need is the authors and researchers names.

  • Epicurus

    you said if the teachers teach what is correct then they will be brainwashed.

    I agree we need to teach them critical thinking but after that, we teach them what is correct.

    dont be so rude.

  • Epicurus

    wow. im starting to think you have no clue what you are talking about.

    i said give me an example of fractals in nature that you analyse. if there are no examples of fractals occurring naturally then what is the point in studying them?

    once again, where how and why do you study them. what school did you go to? what degree do you hold? what profession do you study fractals for? or do you mean that you read websites about them?

  • Epicurus

    im sorry, what?

    i take christianity as a whole. i see it for what it really is. no different than any other man made religion.

  • Epicurus

    prove it, or at least provide ONE piece if evidence.

    give me your strongest piece of evidence that make you think that god is real. im waiting.

  • e_pluribus_unum_USA_Motto

    So force yourself to have hallucinations - perfect - perhaps we should address all of life's and societal problems with this obviously splendid tool and methodology .... please

  • e_pluribus_unum_USA_Motto

    I was going to provide you with some history and facts but I see by all the postings here, you have no interest in other ideas or facts.

    Simply put your statements are fallacious.

    "Science appeared because of Christianity" - how absurd.

    Science re-appeared despite Christianity -

    The Dark Ages - Medieval Times - etc match "exactly" with the rise of the christian faith. Not until the Renaissance and Reformation did science - math - medicine and social growth begin again.

    Humanity is several thousand years behind because Christianity and other religions have tortured and burned alive our best and brightest.

    The Greeks - Persians - Arabs - Chinese and many others developed some of the greatest ideas of science and math and medicine long before christianity was invinted.

    As for the so called "Mother" Theresa :
    - do some research.

    She took money from the Haiti government (baby Doc) stolen from the Haiti people.
    She took money from a wall street swindler stolen from his clients.
    She used the money to open more horrible houses where people could die without any medical aid because she worshipped suffering.

  • robertallen1

    As well put as your other posts. The last thing a religious hierarchy wants is educated adherents.

    Have you see "Lost Gospels" which is also on this site? I would be interested in reading your comments.

    There is also a fine documentary on Kitzwilliam v. Dover School District which might be of interest to you. Again, I would be interested in reading your comments.

    How refreshing it is to read something well-informed and intelligent.

  • e_pluribus_unum_USA_Motto

    Thanks cuz - we share surnames.
    I will check Lost Gospels and comment there.
    I have seen the dover doc - will comment there as well. That judge should be a national hero, all things considered, he may not have done the right thing..... I keep close tabs on the NCSE - National Center for Science Education and help out with email campaigns to elected officials - Just silly in the USA - a free and technologically advanced country; that we rank with Islamic countries *something like 35" in the acceptance of proven science.

  • Winston Smith

    There may be such things as Gnosis...but bc it is not the kind of information others can share in and so has no place in science. Religion divides people into tribes and has no place in the modern world being held up as an image of morality. Just like nature and science does not discriminate, and the same vaccine works on all people. So have DNA studies just how closely related we all are,

  • robertallen1

    I get it. 1984.

  • Ernesto Martin

    Darwin was an british eugenic fack

  • Mervyn Hughes

    In this world, all the beings are classified into four categories: (1) Andaja, that which is born out of an egg. (2) Pindaja, that which is born out of the mother's womb, (3) Uthbhija, that which is born out of the earth (4) Swedaja, that which is born out of sweat. Under each category, there are 21 lakh types of species. Hence, it is said that there are 84 lakh species in God's creation.

    Today man is subjected to hardships because he has forgotten the source of his origin. Fish is born out of water. It cannot survive even for a while without water. It is happy only when it is in water, the place of its origin. What is the source of man's origin? Lord Krishna declared in the Gita, "Mamaivamsho Jeevaloke Jeevabhuta Sanathanaha." (The eternal Atma in all beings is a part of My Being.) From this it is evident that man is a spark of the Divine. He has originated from the principle of Atma. Having been born from the Atma, man should always contemplate on the Atma. He will become restless and face hardships if he forgets the Atma. So, never forget the Atma, the place of your origin. Have faith in the Atma. Respect it and revere it. Treat Atma as the basis of your life. This is the Dharma that man should adhere to. You may occupy positions of authority. You may have wealth and prosperity. But none of them can protect you. Only faith in the Self can protect you. You may involve yourself in any work you like but you should have unwavering faith in the Atma.

  • Jeremy

    Religious crap on a Dawkin's documentary, u must be out yo mind foo! We do not take kindly to your dogma, and the point of this documentary is to hopefully wedge it out of existence. Good try to sound scientific and knowledgeable however most of the intellectuals on this site do see right through it, and to the heard and core of the BS that it is. My point is... You missed the point.

  • Jeremy

    One of the biggest mistakes man has ever made, in my opinion, is to compare OURSELVES to the machines we create, this whole "designed/created" argument is just beating a dead horse, because it is missing the paradox of what created the thing that created us and so on and so on. If you follow the logic, this is indeed a paradox, that no God could be born into because it STILL requires the first in the succession to suddenly and magically just "exist" which solves NOTHING and brings the paradox full circle. Religious people are so non intellectual it baffles my mind that they think they deserve to argue with the likes of Dawkins, Hitchens (RIP), and many others. It is laughable!

  • Epicurus

    you are absolutely right.

  • Jeremy

    "The programming language and code found in nature is so advanced that we can hardly comprehend." - WRONG. On this very site, search, "playing God" this code is not that complex, we understand it more and more every single day, we just had to crack it first. A lot like teaching people a new language, but you couldn't grasp that could ya?

  • Jeremy

    This guy is pushing Islamic fundamentalism, do not bother : )

  • robertallen1

    The paradox seems to exist if we accept the concept of cause and effect for everything.

    I like your last sentence. These people should be asking questions, not making assertions.

  • robertallen1

    A typical creationist post. First and foremost, as you have pointed out, the facts are wrong.

  • Teri

    I feel like the altruistic behaviors of humans, and other mammals, probably stem from the fact that we must care for our young for a long time in order ensure their survival. We must care about our offspring or else they will die (a child cannot care for itself obviously). And if we have the ability to selflessly care for our children, then we have the capacity to care for others as well. I just feel like that seems so obvious. Nonetheless, I enjoyed watching this.

  • DarylTJ

    Darwin was an idi*t. If his theory was correct, EVERY species would have evolved into Mankind by now.

  • over the edge

    i am hoping you are just trolling. if not wow. it is obvious that you do not understand Darwin's theory at all . species evolve to better survive within an environment. are you suggesting that fish aren't better suited to survive underwater, cactus aren't better suited to survive in the desert, bats aren't better suited to hunt at night and so on and on and on? please tell me you didn't pass biology in school because if so there are some that should be left behind

  • Fred Bazzeeda

    troll or ignorance?

  • Daniel Covington

    Lol at DarylTJ. Why would every species evolve into humans? Who says we are succeeding? Some scientists speculate we might have already killed ourselves.

  • Daniel Covington

    Poor dumb Wendy Wright....

  • DarylTJ

    People who believe they are animals may laugh at my post. I don't care.
    But my comments follow plain logic.

    Something made an amphibian crawl out of the swamp. Something made it turn into a mammal. Something made the mammal turn into a primate. Something made the primate turn into a human.

    Humans are supposed to be the most highly evolved species on earth.

    So if one of you learned chimpanzees could explain why evolution would dead-end some creatures' evolution at BIRD, DOG, GORILLA, OR FISH, and not let them evolve on to HUMAN, I might just buy this fatally flawed 'theory'.

    People seem to confuse 'adaptation' with 'evolution'. Remember one thing, Darwin's theory is a THEORY.

  • DarylTJ

    And one other thing - Darwin's proposed "Transitional species" have NEVER EVER been found. Not a single one.

  • robertallen1

    How about reading up on evolution and especially what a scientific theory is before keyboarding a squib as uneducated as this? Your post is unique in that everything in it is wrong.

    Other than ignorance, what are your qualifications for going up against evolution--"plain logic" won't do.

  • robertallen1

    Did it ever occur to you that every species on earth is transitional?

    Did you know that museums are chock full of so-called "transitional" species?

    Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

    Where did you get this drivel? It's so trite and threadbare, that it certainly didn't come from you?

  • KooKookaChoo

    oh my! that is very wrong. Instead of doing the work for you, I will tell you how you can find this information yourself (it may be a life lesson, you never know)

    1. Type "Transitional species" into a google search bar; you will notice that "Transitional FOSSILS" appear - this is the terminology you want to search (because robertallen1 is completely correct, we are all transitional species)

    2. One of the first links you will see is for wikipedia -- this is a good start for anyone looking for general information on any topic (but keep a skeptical mind, it is the internet after all; Tip: check the sources at the bottom and research those a little further if they are questionable)

    3. Read

    4. Ponder and compare against your current knowledge base; consider if your ideas need revising based on new information

    5. Grow intellectually and save face.

    Cheers and good luck =)

  • Kateye70

    Y'all are being so nice to DarrylTJ, but sadly, every single comment he made shows the misinformation about what science is and how it works being spread by fundamentalist Christians.

    But I'll be nice, too, and offer Darryl one of Ray Comfort's bananas.

  • lakhotason

    Just have him google drug resistant TB. You can pretty well follow this transitioning of a species in real time. Pretty hard to argue the "transition" thing.

  • Epicurus

    "Something made an amphibian crawl out of the swamp. Something made it turn into a mammal. Something made the mammal turn into a primate. Something made the primate turn into a human."

    Mutation, Gene Drift, Gene Flow, and Natural Selection. all those things "made" those organisms change.

    "Humans are supposed to be the most highly evolved species on earth."

    this is absolutely wrong. there is no such thing as the most highly evolved. all species are highly evolved to fit the niche they are in. humans are not the end goal of evolution. there is no goal. there is only constant change and adaptation.

    "So if one of you learned chimpanzees could explain why evolution would dead-end some creatures' evolution at BIRD, DOG, GORILLA, OR FISH, and not let them evolve on to HUMAN, I might just buy this fatally flawed 'theory'."

    i just explained it above for you. your problem is you think evolution has some conscious goal to create an organism like humans. but that is very wrong.

    "People seem to confuse 'adaptation' with 'evolution'. Remember one thing, Darwin's theory is a THEORY."

    a theory is an explanation of a fact. you know germ theory, atomic theory, gravitational theory. all theories. all explain the facts of germs, atoms, gravity and evolution.

    so maybe instead of pretending you understand science enough to scoff at people who dedicate their lives to it you could take the time to actually learn it and understand it? might keep you from making such ignorant posts for the entire world to see.

  • DarylTJ

    It amuses me that you 'would-be scholars' can only insult me, and muddle together incoherent 'sound bytes' of things you read or someone told you.

    I reiterate my challenge:

    "So if one of you learned chimpanzees could explain why evolution would dead-end some creatures' evolution at BIRD, DOG, GORILLA, OR FISH, and not let them evolve on to HUMAN, I might just buy this fatally flawed 'theory'."

    Some chimp wrote:

    "i just explained it above for you. your problem is you think evolution has some conscious goal to create an organism like humans. but that is very wrong." [No writing skills, no capitals - VERY learned!]

    My answer to the above ludicrous proposal, that we are NOT the most highly evolved species on earth, is this; Why are you not debating with a goldfish? Why aren't you watching videos made by dolphins? And if you don't believe you are the most highly evolved species, then why would I take you seriously at all?

    Insult away - it amuses me. But I would prefer genuine responses from someone who has a clue.

    Remember they once thought the earth was flat, and killed anyone who thought differently.

    And for record, I am as far removed from a Christian as one can get.

  • DarylTJ

    LOL Look in the mirror Jack

  • DarylTJ

    Nice condescension - it becomes you!

  • DarylTJ

    Why can't you spell Daryl, chimp? Even THIS is too hard for you?

  • robertallen1

    You are also as far removed from an intelligent, educated person as one can get.

  • robertallen1

    Is this the best you can do, Darryl?

  • robertallen1

    You're right about the condescension. All the intelligent ones who've responded to you are merely slumming, including yours truly.

  • robertallen1

    You learn first and then you keyboard, not the other way around. But I guess, this is too hard for you.

  • Achems_Razor


    You say you are far removed from a christian, what are you then, an ID proponent? You must be attached to one of the thousands of religions out there.

    A book you should read is..."The Creationists"...By Ronald L. Numbers. Should give you some insight. Which I am just starting to read, thanks to @robertallen1: suggestion.

    And another thing, don't mess with our @KookKookaChoo: mess with her and you mess with us all. She said nothing that was really that condescending.

  • KooKookaChoo

    *gasp* I was giving you advice, clearly no one taught you how to search for information on the internet (or you would not have made such an erroneous statement)

    But seriously, did you look up the information? or is that "too hard for you"?

    P.S. NOW you can say I have been condescending. (just letting you know, because it escaped you before)

  • KooKookaChoo

    *blushes* aww shucks, love you too TDF friends!

  • KooKookaChoo

    "incoherent sound bytes"? ummm, no. Actually, Epicurus made perfect sense and is correct in everything he said - just because you don't understand it doesn't make it incoherent... That's it - the entire field of abstract algebra is incoherent because I don't understand it. That's completely logical (note: this is called sarcasm).

    And really, we are still explaining what a theory is? *sigh*

    I am not going to sit here and write some insanely long post explaining these concepts to you because you are not listening. Look the information up for yourself- it is there, waiting for you. I promise. (note: I am being completely serious)

  • over the edge

    Ok let me try again. Living things don't evolve to become more intelligent. They evolve to better survive within their environment. More intelligent does not equal more evolved. So i will ask again are you or a fish more suited to live in the ocean? who would survive better in the arctic circle you or a Polar Bear? things evolve we have seen it . but instead of only having one side of the debate might i suggest a level playing field. What is your alternative theory? or are you to afraid to expose it to scrutiny?

  • robertallen1

    So you started the book, too. Isn't it fascinating? Are you reading the regular or the expanded edition? Please let me know your thoughts.

  • robertallen1

    Keep up the good work. This fool and his loud keyboard deserve it!

  • robertallen1

    Just for your information, abstract algebra is pretty much an umbrella term for various branches of mathematics such as set and group theory. It's fascinating, but all the textbooks are terrible. Also, you have no need to apologize; Daryl and those like him deserve the condescension which he so complains about.

  • Guest

    Smart questions are always a good way to retort. That one is great:
    What is your alternative theory?

  • KooKookaChoo

    lol, there was no apology there - I was joking with him in those last posts (trying to be over condescending)... perhaps it didn't work...
    ah well

    I have always under-appreciated math. I was never terrible at it, just average. But quantum physics and statistics made me realize there is a lot more to it than I ever thought. Physics did this because if I had known how interconnected everything was, then I probably would have paid more attention to both it and calculus. And statistics because of how it applies to research regarding the significance of your observations. Also, some documentaries on this site about math, numbers and patterns are fascinating.

  • robertallen1

    If you want to gain a real appreciation for math, go to your local supermarket and look at the soup cans. They're designed mathematically.

    You are right about the interconnectedness. It took several thousand years for mathematicians and scientiststo realize and understand this. (I make the distinction because science is empirical and mathematics (even the mathematics of statistics) isn't).

    The problem with math is the way it is taught and written about, especially on the fairly basic college levels. If math professors teach the way they write, no wonder why mathematics is such a turnoff to many potentially fine mathematicians. This from a non-mathematician and someone far from a mathematical genius.

    Just out of curiosity, what is your background?

  • Kateye70

    "Why can't you spell Daryl, chimp?" -- umadbro?
    "Some chimp wrote:"
    "So if one of you learned chimpanzees"

    --for someone who keeps referring to other posters as "chimp" with the obvious intent to insult them, it's a little precious to be concerned about a typo, don't you think?

    It's very interesting that you got so concerned about an extra 'r' as if you aren't the one spelling "Darryl" with an alternate ("Darryl has 7 variant forms: Darrel, Darrell, Darryll, Daryl, Daryle, Daryll and Derryl."--from ThinkBabyNamesdotCom).

    See, even chimps can do internet research, its easy.

    Also, all you have done is make one fallacious assertion after another (as opposed to "fellatious insertion") about science on a board populated by scientists and educated laypeople alike.

  • robertallen1

    Bonobos can also do internet research on chimps and Daryl's (all seven of them).

  • Kateye70

    Now bonobos are a primate after my own heart!

  • KooKookaChoo

    I started off in art and art history, but then went into nursing, decided I wanted to be a vet instead and finished my BSc with an hons specialization in biology -- at first I focused on physiology (vet), but then switched to ecology/evolution. At one point I also wanted to get into primatology so I took some anthropology as well.

    I decided that being a vet is monotonous, so now I am looking at a college program for wildlife management (I used to be a rehabber and loved every second, even the heartbreaking ones) -- I'm an education sl*t. LOL! I'm 28 now and it would be really nice to settle on a course of employment, but there are so many fascinating careers out there, how do you choose? But I think I've got it this time! *finger crossed*

    Actually, I wondered the same about you, you seem to have varied interests and knowledge in a lot of areas.


  • over the edge

    thanks az now lets see if it gets answered. i don't like the odds lol

  • robertallen1

    But can they mate with chimps? I can't seem to find the answer.

  • robertallen1

    I have two evolutionary dollars that say he won't.

  • Epicurus

    High intelligence does not mean highest evolved.

    if we are the highest evolved how come we cant fly? because intelligence or flying are not the pinnacle of evolution.

    the fact of the matter is that you dont understand what evolution is and you have never taken a single biology course. im not TRYING to insult you. im trying to inform you.

    stop pretending people were insulting you when you are TRYING to insult others by calling them chimpanzees that is pathetic. it makes you look like a child.

    we are apes. we are actually members of the great apes. we are not chimpanzees but they are very closely related to us. only different by 1% of our DNA.

    i gave you genuine responses. i dont understand how you think they were not genuine.

    so you dont believe in evolution and you dont believe in how did life get here? did it magically pop into existence? did all animals just appear as they presently are?

    listen. evolution is a fact. perhaps you should re-read y last post to you. i didnt insult you other than by saying that you really dont understand evolution. and you do not.

  • Epicurus


  • Epicurus

    you are like a female version of me..... *stares in awe*

  • robertallen1

    Thank you. Yours is the first definite answer I've received. Now, is the offspring viable?

  • KooKookaChoo

    you mean I'm not alone?????? that's the best thing I've heard in a while!

  • robertallen1

    and KooKookacho, Epicurus, Over_the_Edge, Achems_Razor:

    Speaking of fallacious assertions, see how many you can spot in this message backed by former governor Fob James which appeared in public school biology textbooks used in Alabama from 1996 to 2001.

    "This textbook discusses evolution, a controversial theory some scientists present as a scientific explanation for the origin of living things, such as plants, animals and humans.

    "No one was present when the life first appeared on earth. Therefore, any statement about life's origins should be considered as theory, not fact.

    "The word 'evolution' may refer to many types of change. Evolution describes changes that occur within a species. (White moths for, for example, may 'evolve' into gray moths). This process is microevolution, which can be observed and described as fact. Evolution may also refer to the change of one living things to another such as reptiles into birds. This process, called macroevolution, has never been observed and should be considered as a theory. Evolution also refers to the unproven belief that random, undirected forces produced a world of living things.

    "There are many unanswered questions about the origin of life which are not mentioned in your textbook, including:

    "Why did the major groups of animals suddenly appear in the fossil record (known as the 'Cambrian Explosion')?

    "Why have no new major groups of living things appeared in the fossil record for a long time?

    "Why do major groups of plants and animals have no transitional forms in the fossil records.

    "How did you and all living things come to possess such a comlpete and complex set of 'Instructions" for building a living body?

    . . ."

    I stopped counting at ten.

    The omitted conclusion bears the admonition to keep an open mind. So how in light of the foregoing drivel and the age and education of the students for whom this is intended, how can this be accomplished?

    Fundamentalist antics such as this contribute greatly to the stereotype of southerners as no more than ignorant hicks.

  • Kateye70

    Can they? Not sure.

    Would they try? Probably!

  • robertallen1

    You certainly have the rudiments of a fine education. Although the efforts of animal rehabbers amount to only the proverbial drop in the bucket, I applaud their efforts, at the same time appreciating the vagaries of nature expressed through evolution.

    I am more than double your age and my background is in the liberal arts with only a fairly recent interest in the sciences, especially paleontology which I have the highest respect for.

    But getting back to you. Would it be indiscrete of me to ask which area of the world you inhabit?

    P.S. Education sl*t--what a delightful oxymoron.

  • Epicurus


  • robertallen1

    Epicurus informs me that they do.

    But you're right, those horney little devils would try.

  • robertallen1

    That's interesting. Then why are each classed as a different species or am I perhaps misinterpreting?

  • Epicurus

    Well the stickers were going into the textbook of Kenneth Miller. Not only is he one of the top evolutionary biologists of our day but he is also a practicing catholic who goes to church every sunday.

    When questioned about his reaction, Ken Miller said, to the reporter’s surprise, that he actually liked the sticker. However, he did come up with a more accurate disclaimer, which I have quoted below:

    DISCLAIMER: “This textbook contains material on science. Science is built around theories, which are strongly supported by factual evidence. Everything in science should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered.”

    Theories are to scientists higher than facts, because theories serve to explain the facts. Every scientific theory, should it be evolution, gravity or atom theory, must always be approached by students with an open mind. Science is not a discipline that seeks to close minds. It does not build itself on certainties, but rather on the foundations of evidence.

    So i find it amazing that they would put that sticker in just to warn about the theory of evolution but not the theory of gravity or germ theory or atomic theory.

    now if i were to take apart that statement it would go like this:

    "This textbook discusses evolution, a controversial theory some scientists present as a scientific explanation for the origin of living things, such as plants, animals and humans."

    only controversial to people with little to no education in biology or any science.

    "No one was present when the life first appeared on earth. Therefore, any statement about life's origins should be considered as theory, not fact."

    no one was present when most of the people on death row committed their crimes so we are only killing them based on

    "The word 'evolution' may refer to many types of change. Evolution describes changes that occur within a species. (White moths for, for example, may 'evolve' into gray moths). This process is microevolution, which can be observed and described as fact."

    Yes it is observed and is a fact, however HOW it occurs is what we refer to as the theory. the theory explains how and why those changes occur.

    "Evolution may also refer to the change of one living things to another such as reptiles into birds. This process, called macroevolution, has never been observed and should be considered as a theory."

    macroevolution HAS been observed in many organisms just not specifically reptiles to birds. however there is enough corroborating evidence such as genetics and anatomy to point to birds coming from reptiles....and much much more evidence of birds coming from reptiles than there is of birds or reptiles just popping into existence in their present forms.

    "Evolution also refers to the unproven belief that random, undirected forces produced a world of living things."

    not undirected. very very directed. and it actually says that it produced a world of DIVERSE living things. abiogenesis produced living things. evolution diversified that life.

    "There are many unanswered questions about the origin of life which are not mentioned in your textbook, including:"

    that is an issue of abiogenesis not evolution.

    "Why did the major groups of animals suddenly appear in the fossil record (known as the 'Cambrian Explosion')?"

    there was a mass extinction and that left lots of room for animals to radiate into and fill niches.

    ""Why have no new major groups of living things appeared in the fossil record for a long time?"

    there hasnt been a mass extinction.

    "Why do major groups of plants and animals have no transitional forms in the fossil records."

    they do.

    ""How did you and all living things come to possess such a comlpete and complex set of 'Instructions" for building a living body?"

    take biochemistry and you might understand a little better. not a first year high school biology class.

    lol politicians are stupid.

  • robertallen1

    Congratulations. You get an A--and if I could give you a higher grade, I would, for you immediately got to the heart of the matter: "Why should biology be singled out?

    At least, the author's disclaimer was intelligent. The earlier disclaimer which mirrors others I have read contained not one grain of truth. And this passes for an education?

    Well, you're right, politicians are by and large stupid, except when it comes to the pseudo science of social Darwinism which fits them to a T and in which they excel, considering the intellectual caliber of most of those who elect them.

  • Epicurus

    because we class things as different species if they are not going to mate by geographic distance alone.

  • robertallen1

    But as I understand it, chimps and bonobos are close both genetically and geographically.

  • Epicurus

    not close enough geographically that they would ever come into contact with one another naturally.

  • Kateye70

    <3 Wikipedia (with all the usual disclaimers). Bonobos and chimpanzees are both species in the the genus Pan. Interestingly, according to the wiki article,"Bonobos are capable of passing the mirror-recognition test for self-awareness."

  • robertallen1

    I don't mean to sound dense, but how close is close or perhaps to phrase is in a more sophisticated fashion, how is closeness defined in this instance?

  • robertallen1

    Thank you. It's amazing how seemingly non-biological aspects such as geography affect speciation.

  • robertallen1

    I'm not a bit surprised. Gorillas have been shown in general to have better short-term memories than humans. I guess we're not the acme of speciation as someone would have us believe.

  • robertallen1

    Hey, Achem, you still haven't told me how you like "The Creationists" so far.

  • Achems_Razor

    Need time, just started reading it, Can tell it will be a lot to assimilate. But looks good so far.

  • robertallen1

    You're right, but the deeper into it you go, the more fascinating it becomes. Now, which version are you reading? The 1995 or the expanded version which came out ten years later?

  • Achems_Razor

    Am reading the hard cover first edition, Copyright @ 1992 by Ronald L. Numbers, 458 pages.

  • Achems_Razor

    Yes, I know you were trying to bring it back on topic. The posts might get deleted but you won't get kicked out, not to worry.

  • robertallen1

    As I mentioned, there is the later expanded edition which takes in intelligent design and is about 100 pages longer.

  • Epicurus

    actually i went to university and got my Bsc in psychology planning to get my masters and then phd in evolutionary psychology. i got bored with psychology and am now doing a bachelors in anthropology.

    i hope to either travel to africa or south east asia and work with primates or stay in north america and do archaeological work on first nations people here in canada.

  • robertallen1

    Why are all the intelligent and well-informed ones on this site from Canada? You leave my country in the dust, probably where it belongs now.

  • KooKookaChoo

    I was wondering if you were interested in primatology! I haven't taken that option off the table -- I am interested in starting off in wildlife affairs here in Canada, but eventually taking it abroad. (I still haven't reaaally chosen a career, just a more specific direction -- working with aye ayes would be a dream!)

    My cousin is a cultural anthropologist working with first nations people regarding land ownership changes in Sault Ste. Marie -- very interesting. If you are looking for a contact, let me know (he's a great guy!).

  • robertallen1

    Aye-ayes sure look cute, but I wouldn't want to have one as a pet. I hear they really smell.

  • KooKookaChoo

    have you ever worked with bats? LOL! *phew!*
    yeah, I tend to like the cute smelly ones.... I LOVE skunks too (...and so does my dog o_O)!

  • robertallen1

    On the bright and least smelly side of things, I have a red-fronted macaw named Boris.

  • KooKookaChoo

    maybe it's our health care -- we don't have to worry so much about spending our money on that, and so have the time and ability to focus our attention on other things, like extended learning. ( ? just an idea); it is also comparatively easy to get a post-secondary education here (although it would be nicer if it were paid for, like in some countries - Australia, I think *jealous*)

    It also helps that the school year is between Sept and May -- winter's can get long and boring after awhile. Idle minds and all that....

    Edit: "comparatively" to other countries, not necessarily US

  • robertallen1

    I have heard that in general your educational system is better than ours. Obviously, we don't have it all and as time goes on, we'll probably have less and less; yet, we just love to tell other countries what to do.

    By the way, have you ever been to the U.S.?

  • KooKookaChoo

    I'll be in PA in two weeks for a wedding! lol
    I have family there and have visited quite often.
    Have you been to Canada?

  • robertallen1

    Once to Montreal in 1964,

  • oddsrhuge

    Well. I am pretty "neutral" in my pick. You failed to mention Tao, and Buddism.

    But either hold no candle to Christianity. This is the ONE religion. All others must bow to it.

    Christian religoin requires us to believe in a God that contols our every action. We can talk to him and expect, what?

    Got a problem with it? Call on God...your Granny died, no problem...she's in a better place.

    War killed millions? It was ordained by God.

    A snake talked to you? You're missing a rib? Well, stop complaining, Jebus, is coming to relieve the questions.

  • Guest

    That's the year the Beatles were in Montreal, but according to one of your past comment, i take you didn't go to Montreal to see them.
    Was it for the pleasure of travelling? How do you remember Montreal?

  • robertallen1

    Only how beautiful and clean it was.

  • Mark

    Mr. Dawkins states that our ability to think is a biproduct of evolution. Clearly, intelligence of some form exists within many species, the extent to which we are only recently beginning to understand. I wonder if intelligence, and perhaps even self-consciousness, could be a natural evolutionary progression in virtually all living species. Any thoughts (evolved or not)?

  • David Solo

    why do atheists always rely on Evolution and Darwin to support their own theories, Even Darwin himself Believed in God and after his original biography was released he expresses beliefs that reflect Deism.

    Deists and Darwin Believe evolution is all the more reason to believe in God, its that much more complex and magnificent.

    (everyone thought the earth was flat and we were the center of the universe, give it a rest, its all just a guess)

  • Samuel Morrissey

    Darwin renounced god (of any kind put forward by men) for many reasons, one of which was his collection of evidence in support of his theory of evolution, another was that upon critical examination of the theist belief phenomena he slowly became absolutely sure it was nonsense. There are many quotes in his autobiography that attest to this. His wife was devout, but he as a scientist could neither refute nor ignore the evidence. Yet another reason may have been the death of his 9 year old daughter. Why indeed would anyone want to worship a god who inflicts pain and suffering then death on an innocent child? with gods like these, who needs devils?

    If you want to base your worldview on a solid foundation you can do little better than evolution theory, it has a vast and increasing ocean of evidence behind it and is adequately proven by the more recent discovery and analysis of DNA and subsequent tests involving breeding. We can be surer about evolution than gravity about which we have yet to satisfactorily explain.

    Evolution is all the more reason to thoroughly doubt any and all human inventions of supernatural forces or beings be they gods, unicorns or [insert supernatural invention of your choice here]

    So my guess is no gods or unicorns.

    regards, Sam.

  • Samuel Morrissey

    Only when higher intelligence directly results in higher survival rates. There are no 'goals' as such like super intelligence, super strength etc. with evolution. In many environments, intelligence can enable a species to better survive, in others maybe stronger or faster muscles are better for this purpose. There are myriad approaches - high reproductive rates are an obvious advantage for example, but the fact is all adaptations carry detriments as well as benefits so in this instance faster breeding also means shorter lifespan. Our higher intelligence appears to coincide with the decline of our physical strength as well as the sensitivity of our senses, and may well yet prove to be a dead end of itself on an evolutionary scale. Creatures are simply as intelligent as their natural environment has required their species to adapt to be. Being more intelligent would not help a wolf who had a weak sense of smell, and being extremely physically strong would not necessarily help a human whose intelligence was abnormally low.

    So yeah for me, intelligence is evolved. Maybe it can go further in our direction, but only if it helps us to survive better, and at the moment we do rather well on that front with what we have already.

    Regards Sam.

  • vikash jha

    Have you ever read The Third Chimpanzee by Jared Diamond? ...

  • vikash jha

    man... while i do believe ur partially joking... i really just feel like americans are totally misrepresented by loud obnoxious people all the time. and it kinda gets on my nerves when europeans and canadians blame everything on america and always talk shit...ill admit in general u see a lot less BS comments from canadians but its really a numbers game... america 400 mill... canada 40mil? i mean obviously there are other factors too but thats at least part of it... please don't hate on us...

  • vikash jha

    Please correct me if im incorrect... but check it... First they said nope no Neandrathal DNA in humans (my favorite anthro book third chimpanzee said it was cuz the gestation time was 12 months instead of ten)... then they said oh yes they were!! oh woops bad lab practice someone got there dna in the DNA machine lol... but the last thing i heard was a study after that where 8% of humans have neandrathal DNA (except sub-saharran africans)... doesn't this mean by the technical definition of the world (ability to mate and produce fertile offspring) neandrathals and sapiens are the same species... @Epicurus please take a stab at this too

  • vikash jha

    if u end up going to vet school (for like a wildlife residency) watch out... bunch of my friends were vets and there exams put some of our med school exams to shame (in terms of difficulty... they start doing surgeries in friggin 3rd yr, its crazy)...

  • vikash jha

    serious? dinosaurs had feathers brah... like the raptors from jurrassic park, fact not fiction

  • vikash jha

    ive been reading thru this entire page... i decided to put it here to so somebody might check to see if it was an attack on Kookookachoo... (it's not) ... and it's @DarylT as well...i hope u read this... anyways i just gotta say... i love neurology... i really hope i get to specialize in it once residency comes around... so please don't start telling me i'm full of s*** what i'm giving IS AN OPINION (shared by many neurologists) not a fact)... but DarylT is partially onto something... the Cortex is a whole lot more sophisticated than it needs to be to survive in the ways that we have been (not the past 2000 years... lets say 50K? or 100k? or cortexs were just as big...) so it IS confusing... in that DarylT ur point is not completely dumb (just u claiming there are no transitional species is)

  • vikash jha

    richard dawkins is one of my heroes... and i'm guessing he is one of urs too... prolly a lot of people on this site... so ur style of reasoning made me smile... HOWEVER... there is a lot of strangeness about NDEs, Wave Function Collapse, and even memories of previous lives from very small children. i did read and pay attn to the part where u said "my guess" ... (ill dig up examples of weird (as in absolutely no logical explanation) NDEs or "reincarnations" if you like and wave function really IS a mystery (just poorly explained by quantum decoherence)...

    anyways... something from nothing is somehow absurd to me. as absurd as existence itself is... and how i can barely wrap my small little brain around it... but nothing is even more... absurd. infact, if the M theory's multiverse is correct, there is no nothing, just an infinity of somethings... and even our own universe is like a game of Space Invaders... where if u reach the "end" of a universe u pop out on the other side... all i'm saying, keep an open mind my friend (just not so open that ur brain falls out... lol...)

  • vikash jha

    i am NOT tryna go Deepak Chopra on ur ass... the guy pisses me off...

  • Epicurus

    yes sir.

  • vikash jha

    oh and the something from nothing comment isn't meant to imply or be a reason for the existence of god... existence itself is weird enough without god i was just thinking outloud

  • Epicurus

    sometimes two species close enough can still breed. they will be called different species because usually they wont breed due to geographic barriers. however being humans we got through those barriers and mated with neanderthals who at the time were not long enough separated from our lineage.

    also I love some of the stuff Jared Diamond does but you gotta remember anthropology is not his specialty, its more of his hobby. however i do enjoy the third chimp, collapse, and guns germs and steel, which we have on this site btw.

  • vikash jha

    hey Epi, thanks for the quick reply. the god/existence comment and deepak chopra comment was for samuel morrissey not you i'm sorry i'm not good at posting and rather scatter brained... which actually helped me come to realize something (thanks to the doc) that probably all of you smart people theorized quite a while ago in ur own heads... this is anthro, Epi, right up ur alley...

    so, we have two major genetic bottlenecks in sapiens A)all living descended from one woman 150k ago B)all living descended from one man 50k ago...

    You see, this upset me for a long time, because it made me believe these two conditions were the result of conscious selective breeding and social structure (and obviously its still possible this could have had a role to play) , you know the way alpha wolves are the only ones allowed to mate ect ect...

    But when dawkins was interviewing the sex worker and alluded to the homozygous CCR5 mutation providing immunity the light bulb went on in my head. i would say, and i feel many of you would agree, that genetic bottle neck A & B was not due to a flood, or a volcano, or an ice age or an earthquake or a meteor or selective breeding. Nay, its a scarier thought even... i say genetic bottleneck A & B were brought about by a Virus... and that implication is actually scarier to me than all the other alternatives (which im sure could/would have played a role). I hope i've stated my wild hypothesis clearly, i won't go any further for fear of being redundant.

  • vikash jha

    the third bottleck ive always heard about was that everyone alive is the product of roughly 600 something breeding couples... but ive never fully understood if this was an actual third bottleneck or another way of explaining the first two.

  • KooKookaChoo

    (no worries! I didn't feel attacked at all)

    I didn't read the comment on the cortices of our brains, just the transitional species one.

    But I think your point is a neat one. Could you elaborate? Isn't the largest part of our brain the frontal lobe, where judgement and higher mental functioning occurs (which of course we have in comparison to other animals and even closely-related primates). Does neurology have a correlation between the amount of sophistication of the brain and the expected complexity of survival (i.e. that at a certain point an organism should be living a certain kind of existence vs another)? Would that not imply that there is some "goal" to evolution (which there most certainly is not)?

    (PS -- this is not an attack either! lol, I am actually curious, I hope it doesn't sound sarcastic or anything, because it is not meant to!!)

    (PPS -- I did a nursing rotation on a neurology unit and loved it!! we had to go through all the physical and mental assessments because you never know what might be affected -- so much learning! It is hard work compared to the other units because you have to be so diligent, but the rewards are worth it -- plus any unit you are on after that will seem like a breeze! best of luck!!)

  • John Simmons

    Your comments are educating me in countless ways.

  • ibadaah

    This is great irony right here:

    "The refusal to believe in anything you can't see yourself is absurd." - Richard Dawkins

  • Winston Smith

    He did not mean 'see for yourself' meaning the naked eye alone, but through whatever means of detection are available within a particular field of study or discipline.

  • Anthony Pirtle

    I can only speak for myself as an atheist, David Solo, but I don't 'rely on evolution and darwin' to support my position of atheism. I agree with the theory of evolution as an explanation of speciation. My atheism is based upon the fact that there is no evidence for the existence of god. The two aren't related, except in that the theory of evolution contradicts directly many religious creation myths. However, the facts about evolution don't rule out a god. There simply isn't any evidence to support one's existence.

  • vikas yadav

    i have one question..
    ok! there is ample amount of evidence that life started from a single cell...but where did that single cell come from?God?physics?

  • Samuel Morrissey

    Hi Vikas,

    You misunderstand, there is ample proof that all life living today with the exception of viruses evolved from a single celled creature. The beginning of life must have occurred some millions of years before that creature evolved, but that creature is as far back as our evidence allows us to make any reasonable judgement.

    If we are talking about an event that occurred in physical reality, then it can only be a creation of physical laws, in as far as anyone can reasonably posit with all current knowledge.

    Regards, Sam.

  • sameer

    I felt like doing this, so on the behalf of 911... who's ID has been blocked by the Admin and he (911..) cant even enter the site any more, and to respect his right of freedom of speach I am doing this.
    From 911_was_an_inside_job @Admin:
    I am sure you are having problem with sleeping may be because this time i got you infront of all these people whom you see as inferior to you simply because you thing you know "everything" but the fact shows something else doesn't it?
    In the beggining you were just editing my post then you started deleting them and flaging them, offcourse you are allowed to do it as you own this site however by practicing you right you ignore mine. Because i did not accepted that my acestors were monkey you start runing behind me and does not matter what i posted here you were ready to block it or counter it with your over cleaver answer and the same attitude made you dig your own grave where you are dewelling right now with the pain of humiliation.
    As usual you replied my last post by calling me "Troll" but at the end you realize that it was you trolling not me. You just assume you knew what i was talking about but in reality you had no cclue what-so-ever.
    "What Darwin Didn't Know" is not the only video available with the same name, the video i was talking about does challenges what ever crap darwing has ever told about evolution and has made dumb out of thousands like you.
    Now that you have blocked me from entering your site, i somehow found a way to tell you how pathetic you are and your existence who denies the right of otehrs to make sure no body can stand and disagree with your dumb ideas about every thing, yes about every thing.
    You are perfect example of those stereotype, who will never listen to some one else because they are brainwahsed from head to toe about almost every thing.
    Still i wish you all the best and keep runnig your site with the iron fist like a dictator.

  • sameer

    The cell ,according to those who believe in evolution, came out of nothing. Now it is upto you to believe if it possible or not.

  • sameer

    It does make sense after all. Well said after all.

  • robertallen1

    See, you haven't been blocked. Your ignorant twaddle appears here nested among the more intelligent, informed comments.

    Now, how about improving your English as well as your knowledge, especially of evolution, and then post?

  • over the edge

    first off you are wrong evolution does not state anything about the origins of life. that would be abiogenesis looking at your claim from that standpoint oh you are still wrong abiogenesis does not say life arose from nothing. also the first post (i assume you are just forwarding someone else s opinion) could you pass on that he/she is wrong there is no claim in evolution we came from monkeys .

  • robertallen1

    There's a fine article about abiogenesis on Wikipedia. If you are truly interested, I suggest you read it.

  • Achems_Razor


    We don't have to believe in anything, we leave that to the religee's. Empirical evidence is all we need.

    And yes, cells and all that is, the universe all the multiverses et al,, came out of absolutely nothing, says Stephen Hawking in his book "The Grand Design".

    Read it for yourself, do not expect us to do all the work for you.

  • robertallen1

    The problem is that so many people want to remain ignorant and not only do they want to remain ignorant, but they want to ensure that others remain ignorant along with them. I guess intellectual starvation loves company. Their questions are not really questions but denials predicated on nothing. Their expostulations are not empirically-based statements but wishful thinking at its most idi!tic. I'm not a doctor, but to me this seems sick.

    However, I have a thought I would like to share with you and hopefully others. In their justification for what cannot be justified, i.e., a supreme being, creationists and the like characterize the universe as fine-tuned. It seems that if it were, all probabilities would be certainties. Think of it; we could predict the next earthquake, the next tidal wave--why, the next everything because all we would have to do is discover the simple mechanics and work from there--and the beauty of it is is that such fine tuning would militate against anything ever going wrong (read no disease) and there would be no need for malodorous entities such as chaos theory and insurance companies--hedging would be unheard of. What a wonderful world it would be--boring and lifeless perhaps, but nevertheless wonderful.

    Your thoughts.

  • robertallen1

    Epicurus is right. You know nothing about evolution and probably nothing about a lot of other things that you think you do--and worse yet, you seem to enjoy spreading your ignorance around.

    Read the article on abiogenesis in Wikipedia and try, try, try to learn something.

  • Achems_Razor


    Ah yes, fine tuned, have said this many times, but will repeat it again.

    The universe (including the earth) and its constants are not fine tuned for life and humanity.

    Instead life and humanity, through evolution, are fine tuned to the universe (especially the earth) as it is.

  • robertallen1

    I believe you're saying that creationists and the like have it backwards. Am I correct? If so, it's obvious, for no life as we know it could have existed on the earth as it was 4-6 billion years ago.

    In this respect, another pet peeve--and scientists with evangelical leanings make it all the time--seeing design in everything. When you ask them what they mean by design, they are generally hard-pressed for an answer. So they restrict themselves to a few examples which generally turn out to be false (e.g., Behe and his flagellum). Me, I see design in probability and chaos, but I'm a pervert.

  • Yogi SmarterBear

    many of those "viruses" are man made by monsanto . all Life is under attack by these creeps .. the parasitic psychopathic elite rulers are using "survival of the fittest" to justify only them surviving ....... do check out Dr Vandana Shiva . please

  • Joel Rodriguez

    I wish I could get to read the origin of the specie. It seems to be a most compelling story. Darwin was never part of my formal education.

  • vvindred

    i think the theory of evolution is correct but not complete or it does not explain everything

  • robertallen1

    What does?

  • vvindred

    i guess we still have to figure it out ...and i'm not saying that god created us to fulfill some kind of special mission..far from it..but there may be things we dint catch....entirely my humble opinion

  • vvindred

    i hate when people attack you as a person just cuz they have a diff opinion , how many languages do you know , if you know more languages then your generally smarter, do you know more about the world i think u proved yourself arrogant , no dissrespect intended it's easy to throw rocks

  • robertallen1

    It's not so much a difference of opinion as a lack of education.

    Every bit of disrespect intended.

  • Tristan John Moir

    Of course evolution doesn't explain everything. It describes a single mechanism. It'd be like arguing that a manual for a specific device is wrong because it doesn't explain every device.

  • robertallen1


    Have you finished "The Creationists" yet? I'm now reading Genie Scott's book and science and creationism, a volume every creationist should.

    P.S. Is creationist a phylum, a genus, a chordata or what?

  • devlinwaugh

    Evolution is very slow so to witness it in real time is impossible but,the evidence and fossils are proof of this process luckily we have found the paper trail and this cannot be refuted by any rational argument.I would like to say to those who believe in a god dependent of your religion or church that you should enjoy your life and happiness that faith brings you satanic or other this is your freedom of choice.I do not have the luxury to just take the words of many men and scribes that wrote a book with no solid evidence,although the bible is a good book in some parts i feel humanity would be further evolved if religion had not existed.The dark ages witch burning wars more wars taxation brutality and land ownership refusal to accept the world was round the earth was the center of the universe life only exist on earth early free thinkers being called heretics and murdered in the name of god and the churches ultimate goal total and all controlling power over human actions and lifestyles i could go on but i think i made the point ...

  • devlinwaugh

    In some ways you could even use the church and how it has evolved and forgotten its dark past to become the new church of the 20th century to prove evolution.As for the creationists idea you cant do that in science (make things up)proof the whole idea and basis upon what the church is based false.On a final note the Vatican has accepted that life might exist on other planets i wonder if god spoke to the pope directly and what parts of the bible he was told to erase.It would be nice if science could just make things up also NOT RELY!!! science is built on many levels of scrutiny and rejection until proven.Science 1 Lunacy 0.

  • devlinwaugh

    I was reading further back on the posts are saw people asking were cells came from.This is a rely simple answer the universe is teaming with the chemistry to make cells.If you want to look further many scientists have proven by heating and cooling substances Seawater water with no life forms present or adding any other elements create the building blocks of life.Then take the earths history over a few hundred million years it is simple to equate that life began in this simple fashion if a scientist can make from nothing just sea water the building blocks of life.We are all formed from elements of the universe every single atom that man animal plant rock liquid is abundant,so nothing rely special going on just chemistry and unimaginable amount of time.I hope you go and look this up as you seem to be very unaware of what is available to answer these simple questions.

  • Achems_Razor


    A creationist is all three with a subfamily of organisms thrown in.

    Did not have a chance to read the creationists, inter library book, they wanted it back, but will get it out again in the near future.

  • Donald Edward Goodman

    "Rely" isa spelled "a "REALLY" simple"......:RELY" aint even close! Yet you show a photo of a high-ranking OFFICER of the US Navy! No wonder we lost in Viet Nam!

  • Donald Edward Goodman

    Most folks refuse to admit where "evolved" from Apes. HOWEVER, just WATCH THEM as they respond to their babies! Thare's NO difference. WHY? Just because evolution (aka DNA) has yet to find them the "power of speech;" doesn't mean we're not related. While I don't consider myself an ape; I DO consider I am a DESEiNDENT ! Just as there are SO many different types of birds, fish, and apes, WHO has the right to say which is which. As a matter of fact, I consider the Queen of England to be a reptile! There are things going on BEHIND-THE-SENES THAT WOULD BLOW THE MIND OF EVERYONE WHO IS NOT "IN TRHE KNOW."I will say no more.....BUT YOU'll see!

  • Donald Edward Goodman

    damn fat fingers.....SENES

  • devlinwaugh

    The queen is a reptile,ooo man you need some serious help!!.I laughed so hard i nearly wet myself bravo i do hope your statement was intended as a joke,if not you need of some special doctor sweeties.

  • robertallen1

    Actually it describes five: natural selection, genetic drift, mutation, recombination and gene flow.

  • Guest

    evolution and islam, one of the only religions that does not openly reject evolution, go hand-in-hand.

  • Martin Dillon

    Channel 4 has claimed copyright on this one. Shouldn't Dawkins, the fundamentalist atheist, be more keen to get the truth out there?

  • Phil E

    I must say this is hillarious. I have no issues whatsoever with the fact that species develop by way of an evolutionary process. Still Atheistic Darwinists fail to answer the question of how life began. A false dichotomy is created between faith and science. The only problem with faith is the fundamentalist and the atheist who who each insists that Scripture be read in every regard (especially the creation accounts) as a literal news report. Neither has a basic understanding of genre!

  • robertallen1

    "Atheistic Darwinists" do not posit how life began (abiogenesis). That's for another scientific discipline.

    I like to think that I have a basic understanding of the genre and what scripture says is irrelevant to science.

  • Daniel Calkins

    Vietnam not Viet Nam. The word ain't has no place in any rational comment. Why the dash between high and ranking? Obviously, you understood what he was saying and as that is the point of communication, his spelling, however incorrect served its purpose. Debate something of worth. Not your believed spelling of a word.

  • TimOsmand

    Only thing I don't like about Dawkins Docs is there's too much religion in them. It's like somebody giving a serious lecture and then stating, "and thats why there's no santa clause". OK I get it, there's no santa, lets get back to science please!

  • DarylTJ

    I will post a link to my alternative theory above.
    But even this is not the 'ultimate truth' - for that, one must read Advaitic literature such as "I AM THAT" by Nisargadatta, "TALKS WITH RAMANA MAHARSHI" (comilation of daily talks) and other such pristine works.

  • DarylTJ

    I am only respecting your own opinion of yourselves when I call you 'chimps'. I myself consider us all to be Homo Sapiens, sentient human beings.

    I have indeed seen men who look a lot like monkeys, but I have not seen a monkey who is almost a human. Nor will you ever see such a thing.

    The spelling of my name is obvious to anyone with a 2nd grade education. How can I take those who can't even spell a five-letter word seriously?

  • Epicurus

    you are so confused as to what the theory of evolution is.

    why would anyone waste their time arguing against your straw men?

    we dont think we are chimps. we know we are primates same as chimps. but chimps are not humans and humans are not chimps.

    wolves are not dogs dogs are not wolves, but both are canines.

  • Epicurus

    your video has been refuted over and over and it lacks ANY sources. it just makes pseudoscientific claims that people who are not scientists are gullible enough to believe.

    one day i might be bored enough to sit here for over an hour pausing every now and then and refute everything said in the video....but really what good would that do? you would never change your mind no matter how much evidence you are presented with. you have faith, evidence wouldnt matter.

  • robertallen1

    "To quote one eminent scientist . . . " Which one?

  • over the edge

    Ok i went to your link (part1 and most of part 2. i couldn't take it anymore).
    first off the ignorance of evolution in this video is amazing. it states (most of these examples in the first five minutes)
    -evolution describes the formation of the earth
    -evolution has something to say on origins of life
    - evolution tries to explain how grand canyon was formed
    and many other things. while the scientifically accepted explanations of these events are compatible with evolution. evolution itself has nothing at all to say on these subjects
    if coal was formed by the injection of Uranium wouldn't it be radioactive?
    finally the world wide flood by means of "hydroplate theory" is impossible. if you do the math of the mass of the land over this layer of water 1 km thick 10 km beneath the surface. the rapid release of pressure would cause the super heated water to immediately convert to steam and sterilize everyone and everything on the earth. also the speed and height this water was ejected to on this video would exceed the escape velocity of the earth. so any water expelled would leave the earth never to return.

  • robertallen1

    But you forget that god can do anything, including making pi a rational number.

  • over the edge

    i keep forgetting that young earth creationists are immune to the effects of logic.

  • DarylTJ

    Thanks vikash!

  • DarylTJ

    You call yourself an ape. This is your right. I call myself a human being. This is my right.
    Evolution is an unprovable, speculative theory. Do you understand what the word 'theory' means? It means a concept, an idea, a guess. NOT a fact.

    You want to start with a 'big bang theory'? Fine. Who created the matter and the event of the big bang? Does your evolution theory cover this?


  • DarylTJ

    Threats now! Wow, you are sounding more and more like the Dark Ages Catholic Church. "Don't mess with KookKookaChoo" LOL!
    " mess with us all..." There is safety in numbers, huh?

    I imagine you to be the kind of person who would make Socrates drink poison for disagreeing with the theories of the time.

    Keep guessing bud......

  • robertallen1

    Before you run your mouth any further, look up the scientific definition of theory and secondly, the big bang. Then find out what evolution is all about and after that read up on abiogenesis. Not that you'll do these things because it's obvious that you'd rather remain ignorant.

  • Achems_Razor


    Look up definition of a joke, and that is what it was, a joke plain and simple. And everyone knew that except you religee's. The only time that religee's can be happy is when they are doing their happy- clappy thing.

    A person has to scrapping the bottom of the barrel to use what I said as an argument for your creationist balderdash!

  • over the edge

    i know this post was directed at Epicurus but i couldn't let it stand. yes evolution states that we are apes but not in the way you seem to think. evolutionary theory never claims that we evolved from any animal still living. only that if you go back far enough we share a common ancestor. next "Evolution is an unprovable, speculative theory". really? not only am i willing to compare actual physical evidence for evolution with your ideas but i would also like to see any predictions that your idea has made that came true (reverse engineering from the answer you want doesn't qualify). look up the "long term e- coli evolution experiment" it shows evolution happening under direct observation in a repeatable, testable and verifiable manner. the theory of evolution remains a theory but do you know what is involved in becoming a scientific theory? has your alternate answer been accepted as scientific theory? evolution itself is a fact. ask experts in the related area of study and that will be confirmed. the theory is the description of how that fact occurs. much like the theory of gravity describes the manner in which the fact (gravity) works. i have no desire to discuss the origins of the universe,origins of life or the origins of our planet as they have nothing to do with evolution in general or this doc in particular. what i would like is answers to the questions i have asked without the ignorance, strawmen and downright avoidance you have shown so far

  • Pysmythe

    "...but do you know what is involved in becoming a scientific theory?"

    Or, maybe even more importantly, what it takes to REMAIN a scientific theory, right? As soon as a theory is really out there, it's jumped all over like a honey-covered dog in a bear colony... And it has obviously got to be a pretty ferocious dog to make it through a ringer like that.

  • Epicurus

    thanks guys, i have been really busy as of late.

    you said it better than i would have.

  • CommentatorFJ

    Evolutionists also state that we have genetic similarities with a banana (50%) too.

  • robertallen1

    Wrong. It's all evolution.

  • eireannach666

    Ok im going to leave this alone. Lmao @Achems.

    Im just going to leave a quote. Who can guess the person who said this? Hmm.

    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference.

    If the history-deniers who doubt the fact of evolution are ignorant of biology, those who think the world began less than ten thousand years ago are worse than ignorant, they are deluded to the point of perversity. They are denying not only the facts of biology but those of physics, geology, cosmology, archaeology, history and chemistry as well.

    I mean come on people.

  • brian rose

    Artificial selection of domesticated dogs is a prime example of evolution in action. Charles Darwin chose to use artificial selection to begin "On The Origin of Species."

    It demonstrates that minor genetic changes can have profound and permanent effects on the phenotype of an organism (that is permanent visible changes in anything with DNA... like humans). These genetic changes can, through selective breeding, become genetically stable and form new breeds that "breed true."

    No one debates that artificial selection of canines leads to permanent changes in genotype and phenotype. The difficult jump for some is the realization that environmental pressures exert influence over genetics just as humans have influence over canine DNA.

  • brianrose87

    Can't we all just agree that religions are myths meant to give us an introspective view of our own psyches using symbolism?

    That way we can all agree that religious texts are not to be taken literally, but also have tremendous value when used as a mythological story that reveals our own humanity to ourselves.

    God isn't real, nor is Odin, Osiris, Shiva, Allah, El, Mars (the God... not the planet), etc. but the symbolism these figures represent for their various cultures can have a positive impact on the individuals within these societies.

    Otherwise, we can just believe Hell actually exists (even though the Old Testament never mentions "Hell," it suddenly appeared in the New Testament) and keep killing each other in the name of fiction.

  • robertallen1

    I believe your last paragraph describes what is known as ring species, correct? In this regard, have you read "The Ancestor's Tale" of Richard Dawkins. In it, he describes an interesting sidelight (and I wish I could remember its exact name or where in the book it is mentioned) but I recall it as some kind of insect or arachnid occupying two areas of the same desert. However, if found in one area, it acts as a species and if found in another, is able to breed with other species. Does this ring a bell? I mention this due to your statement about environmental pressures exerting influence over genetics.

    Also, no one debates that artificial selection of various types of anything leads to permanent changes in genotype and phenotype. Let me add that even more observable examples of short-term evolution with long-term transformation are the cockroach and, if you have a microscope, the e coli bacteria.

    There are several disquieting features about almost all of the evolution deniers such as DarylLTJ: (1) they are religees; (2) they have no understanding or knowledge of evolution and the little they have comes from creationist materials and the like and is thus askew and distorted; (3) they believe that by calling one aspect of evolution into question, they've toppled it in its entirety; and, most of all, (4) they have nothing scientific to offer in its place.

  • robertallen1

    I for one don't subscribe to the concept of the noble lie.

  • AntiTheist666


    Hmm indeed. Shall I say, dare I say? Perhaps not today?
    Just like streams of memes that lead to rivers of dreams?

  • AntiTheist666

    Does anyone have any info on what Darwin said about smiling? I’m sure I read something about this years ago but alas I can no longer remember or find anything.

    The Crucified One

  • Guest

    only thing i found was this phrase: In old age Darwin stooped a great deal. He had a hearty laugh, often raising his hands or bringing them down with a slap on his thighs.

    was taken from AboutDarwin dot com

  • AntiTheist666

    Yes I heard he would do it often, even when on his own, in the dirt looking at worms. What a man!

  • ryan cannon

    Amazing insight into one of the most brilliant minds of our species.

    Like Darwin and Dawkins, I feel sorry for those who cannot marvel in the natural processes that guide our world, and for whom superstition guide thier lives.

    To reach the end of your life knowing that the sum of what you are is what makes up all living things, is certainly a supreme pleasure. Any notion of supernatural life after death is a hamper on the enjoyment of one's existence.

    "But this they fail to add; that after you expire. Not one of all these things; will fill you with desire"

  • eireannach666

    Come on ppl really. Wow. Im going to have to start smackin heads. Lol.

  • Guest

    Went to your facebook and saw your name...LMAO
    Tell me that's not your real name.
    What does the big A stand for?
    Good night...time to retire with a smile on my face.

  • eireannach666

    Lmao... dang. Thats the A that is used by Richard Dawkins Foundation for reason and science.....its quite the cool little symbol i think so i use it as well to promote. RDF is a great orginization to support as well as FFRF (Christopher Hitchens) ..AAI..The Brights(Dan Dennett) Also look up the University of X... im sure youll find them worth while. 'Doctors Without Boarders' also. They are a secular group that does alot for diaster relief and aide.

    Thanx for the laugh. Im glad you liked that. Thtd be an awesome name though. However no kitten it is not. Lol ill tell you but add me on facebook and ill tell u what you want to know.

  • AntiTheist666


    Lol. Please don’t smack my head and besides I was right!
    Here’s one for ya. Who said this? (No cheating)” Who cares if I am right! I am much too right. And he who laughs best today will also laugh last."

    Just Sayin... Charles Darwin.

    The Crucified One

  • brianrose87

    When your identity depends on your not understanding something, then no amount of evidence will faze you. If everything that I believe requires evolution to be false, then I will conjure all sorts of ad hoc, ad hominem, or non sequitur justifications to maintain a sense of comfort and security in my beliefs.

    I love Stephen Roberts quote:
    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

  • robertallen1

    Nice quote, but you haven't answered the first part of my post.

  • brianrose87

    CommentatorFJ, you've got to realize that the vast majority of processes happening in your body are carried out automatically on the cellular level.

    The machinery that copies DNA (polymerases), enzymes that transcribe RNA, the composition of ribosomes, the production of ATP, and the hundreds of necessary biomolecules and enzymes these biosynthesis pathways rely on are identical in all organisms.

    It is a verified fact that around ~15% of the genome of common rice matches human DNA. The key realization is that the most basic, autonomous processes occurring in your cells have little variation from even an E. coli cell (we share 2% of our DNA, but remember that E. coli only has 4,400 genes, and humans have over 23,000 genes). The genes that match E. coli are referred to as "housekeeping" genes. Google search that term with an honestly open mind,