Human Ape

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Human ApeHumans are apes. Great apes. Apes all belong to the super-family Hominoidea. The great apes are the family Hominidae which we share with the Chimpanzees, Gorillas and the Orangutan.

Our DNA is less than 2 percent different from that of chimpanzees, so from a biological viewpoint, what is it that makes humans so different from the other great apes? Find out what our ape cousins can do - and what they can't.

Hominidae

Some facts:

Each individual chimpanzee has his or her own distinctive pant-hoot, or call, so that the caller can be identified with precision.

Orangutans have been observed making simple tools to scratch themselves. They also use leafy branches to shelter themselves from rain and sun, and sometimes even drape large leaves over themselves like a poncho.

Chimpanzees are approximately eight times stronger than the average human. Biologically, chimpanzees are more closely related to humans than they are to gorillas.

Bonobos substitute sex for aggression, and sexual interactions occur more often among bonobos than among other primates.

Orangutans' arms stretch out longer than their bodes - over 7 feet from fingertip to fingertip.

Watch the full documentary now (playlist)

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Ratings: 8.64/10 from 11 users.
  • http://esmuziq.blogspot.com esmuziq

    kirk douglas wil not like to see this

  • http://esmuziq.blogspot.com esmuziq

    my bad kirk cameron :)

  • Cliff T

    Creationists are going to be mad

  • SimonTheSorcerer

    WOW part 2 4:55 made me cry I'm not kidding few thimgs make me cry but this did it... cool!

  • QueenBee

    Fortunately, creationists have the perfectly-designed banana to comfort themselves with.

  • Giant Blobb

    Simply astounding. I can only recommend this doc. Very interesting indeed.

  • SimonTheSorcerer

    Part 6 2:15 proves that all transhumanists/atheists, science/mathematics/experiments/observations usally referred to as "scientific thinking" is the only thing you can trust. These monkeys are more evolved than some american fanatic christians . America, strongest military+stupid people = well ??? I hope it does not equals what Im thinking... God bless Europe :) Hail Transhumanism and Chimps :)

  • Randy

    @Simon

    Yeah, even as an American, I kind of have to agree with you there...

    But, from what I understand, the fundamentalist infection is beginning to spread to Canada and Europe... sorry about that. I would stop it if I could, believe me.

  • SimonTheSorcerer

    Hmmmm interesting @Randy could you refer to some kind of studies or data, statistics? The only thing that comes in to my mind is the well known human phenomena of "minority radicalization" less is more radical maybe that is what you mean as for my claim simply google "atheism in Europe" . But enough of this i would hate to turn this into another atheis-religion battleground there is enough of it here already , rather I would hear from some anthrophologist about the legitimacy and acceptance/accuracy of these fantastic claims in the documentary. Thanks @Vlatko for making all this happen!

  • Achems Razor

    Definitely fundamentalism in Canada also.
    But no bible belts as such.

    Anyway, waiting for all the religee's to bombard this doc. It is a given!

  • Markie

    I'm new to this site - Is this a pro-atheist platform? Just wondering...

  • john

    not so much pro-atheist as pro-science backed up by evidence as opposed to stone age fantasy and lore (ie religon) ..just about to watch this one. as far as fundamentilism infecting canada..look no further than our prime minister..shudder..peacefull protest is no longer respected in canada. i was very shocked to learn that intelligent design (oxymoron) is being taught in catholic schools up here.

  • Dr. Dunkleosteus

    Just pro-intelligence. Start there and jump on in. Glad to have you. :)

  • wanda

    There NEVER has been EVER any "human" ape.

  • wanda

    pro "intelligence"? You have GOT to be joking! That or you are so brainwashed by your atheist religion that you cannot -strike that-WILL NOT see the forest for the trees.

  • ez2b12

    @ Markie

    No prerequisites as far as I know, welcome.

    @ Everyone

    This is a great documentary. It does get a little bogged down with experiments that I have already seen in other docs, if you haven't seen them already they are facinating. But it is well worth the wait even if you have.

    The last two parts go into very interesting information about the specific mutations that seperated us from other hominids. This was new info, to me anyway, and I found it very interesting. I have often wondered why we developed as we did while our cousins did not. Now I have at least one theory to mull over.

    Who would have ever guessed a weaker jaw muscle would be the catalyst to our more complicated and advanced brain? The specific genes they discussed for language developement was also something I had never heard about. Best doc I have watched in quite some time.

  • ez2b12

    @ Wanda

    You know you guys really get boring with the same old insults and denial game. I suppose we simply do not posess the ecclesiastical white out necessary to believe in the joke that is creationism. Like Queen Bee says, you have the perfectly designed bannana to convience you, so how could you be wrong- right? Never mind the thousands of fossils and tons of peer reviewed scientific data, just listen to good old Kirk- he is bound to know the truth. You hang in there Wanda- I know you can eventually convince yourself.

  • zardoz

    #
    esmuziq09/21/2010 at 17:40

    kirk douglas wil not like to see this
    #
    esmuziq09/21/2010 at 17:51

    my bad kirk cameron :)

    I thought you were shooting for Charlton Heston. Damn dirty apes!

  • Achems Razor

    @Wanda:

    We are all human apes, hominids to be more precise, we all came swinging down from the trees not that long ago in the human/hominids time span.

    You are classed as an girl ape, a hominid! get used to it!

  • marc

    ever wonder why the creationist don't spent any of their millions on making documentaries? because, they don't want to leave behind fossils of their timeless stupid truth explain in some sort of logic.
    but to pollute the internet with thier propaganda they are champions.
    give the lions of science some creationist meat i ask.

  • john

    just finished watching, a pretty good doc. the cellular structure differences in the jay muscles and the way modern genetics can pretty much pin point the time that this happened is amazing..much more so than a book full of nonsence. i would be interested to see if all creationists have the throwback gene.

  • Sadie the Celt

    wow - I havent even watched documetary yet, but just the thought that San Francisco could be full of Pongosexuals (let me say that again pongosexual yes I was right, its funny)

  • Sadie the Celt

    @ wanda

    well my ex boyfriend is living proof that evolution CAN go in reverse

  • Randy

    You know, I was re-reading SimonTheSorceror's posts, one that I agreed with, but... as I read and re-read them, I have no idea whether he is pro-science or pro-religion, now... He seemd to be pro-science and anti-religion at first, which is why I agreed with him... but...

    His sentences are kind of muddy...

    What's the deal there, Simon? Can you say pro-science or pro-religion (creationism), as your view, simply and directly, so I know what I was agreeing to?

    Cuz if you are pro-religion, I will have to go shower and then adamantly retract any association with your views...

    I'm just sayin'

  • ez2b12

    @ Randy

    I think he is pro science. He did say clearly that scientific thinking was the only thing you can trust. He seemed a little too pro European but, I can forgive that. I like my European cousins fine, even if they do generalize us all into being simpltons quite often. I suppose after Bush and Cheney we sort of deserve that, though in reality the majority did not vote for them- they clearly stole that election. Remember Dade county, like anyone could forget. Hey they did have Tony Blair though, just as fanatically simple as our gang.

    Now before all my European buddies get angry, I really do like you guys and am just joking around. Well maybe not about Blair, but the rest was a joke. Except for that thing about Dade county, never mind- I meant it all.

    In reality I am Irish so take all this with a grain of salt or a shot of whiskey, its up to you. I'll have the whiskey thankyou, like i said I'm Irish.

  • Randy

    @EZ

    Ah, another Irishman! Slainte! My people are Irish, as well. Nothing of note, just the typical rag-tag refugees from the famine. We came by way of Canada though-- afraid of how Irish were being treated in America at the time... then drifted into America around WWII... apparently.

    So, there's probably some French Canadian in there too, somehwere... Come to think of it, knowing my family, they probably got kicked out of Canada for being drunken losers.

    It's a sordid history, including rum-running from Canada to Boston during prohibition... Irish mob... uncles ending up in landfills... and there's something about one of them possibly marrying a Bigfoot... *shrug*

    I didn't know you were an Irishman... very nice.

  • ez2b12

    @ Randy

    Oh yeah, red hair and all. My family came over during the potatoe famine as well. They started making whiskey the day they got here. In fact my pop, while he was able, showed me how to make fine Irish whiskey. I have only done it the one time with his help though, in reality I don't drink. Aint that something, an Irishman that doesn't drink and isn't religiouse.

    I am 100 percent American now though, even if I am ashamed of my country lately. We did produce some d@#m fine blues and jazz in the past not to mention rock. My dad is a bluegrass picker, or was. Bluegrass is based on old Irish folk music. Dad could play anything with strings on it just about. He played on the Grand Ole Opry for many years with Bill Box and the Dixie Drifters, sounds tacky doesn't it.

    My first cousin, Jim seals, formed a country band called Shenandoah. He played lead guitar for them. If you have ever seen the video to the country song Sunday in the South my dad is one of the old men in front of the court house playing checkers. Him and my uncle both are in it. I never cared for country music at all, jazz is my thing. But I never did much with it, just a hobby. I played tons of Jazz clubs out west in New Mexico when I was younger, but thats about it. Now I am playing blues with a local band. Probably more than you wanted to know but there it is.

  • marc

    @ Randy & ez2b12: they are real piece of work those two.

  • SimonTheSorcerer

    Nice to see how the internet brings people together as for my religious views as asked by Randy it is nonexistent. I'm a transhumanist. I really love how people share and open up here but beware this can be dangerous on the internet!

  • Epicurus

    also an, Irish and dont drink. just smoke cannabis.

    @wanda.....humans ARE primates. we are an ape. i know i know, you are religious and have beliefs. but those are JUST beliefs. they arent reality. you can believe what you want but you cant insist that something which is fact is wrong. that makes you look like a simpleton.

    FYI
    Human Taxonomy:

    Kingdom: Animalia
    Phylum: Chordata
    Class: Mammalia
    Order: Primates
    Family: Hominidae
    Subfamily: Homininae
    Tribe: Hominini
    Genus: Homo

    Chimpanzee Taxonomy:

    Kingdom: Animalia
    Phylum: Chordata
    Class: Mammalia
    Order: Primates
    Family: Hominidae
    Subfamily: Homininae
    Tribe: Hominini
    Genus: Pan

    tell me what the difference is in those two.

  • Charles B.

    "Our DNA is less than 2 percent different from that of chimpanzees, so from a biological viewpoint, what is it that makes humans so different from the other great apes?"

    Let's start with an eternal soul and work back from there.

    2 percent is a huge difference when you're talking about genetics. All phone numbers are numbers, but in different combos you could be calling either Dallas, Texas or Beijing China! Big difference.

  • Epicurus

    charles, show us this eternal soul, or at least give me an outline for an experiment we can do to tell if there is one. if you cant do this that statement is invalid. until you can show there is a soul you cant say that is the difference.

    comparing DNA to phone numbers is silly, and the point is that the similar DNA sequencing is exactly what we predicted it would be based upon evolutionary theory BEFORE any genomes were mapped. not only the similarities between humans and chimps but the similarities of DNA of ALL animals and how they all show just what we would expect.

  • DelonteJones

    Monkeys aren't any better than us.. We're just a different type of animal than they are, that's all.. We're not More human than they are.. We just have different abilities that allow us to place tags and names on everything.. Take a monkey and throw him in the middle of New york city and he won't be able to survive on his own.. Take one of us and throw us in the jungle and we'd have a bit of trouble surviving as well.. The only reason we're at the top of the food chain is because were smarter, but that doesn't make us better.. As far as everyone talking about religion, Seeing is believing.. I've seen evidence of Dinosaurs that were around 65 million years ago.. But never once have a seen a Jesusauras Rex bone..

  • capricious

    "QueenBee09/21/2010 at 19:22

    Fortunately, creationists have the perfectly-designed banana to comfort themselves with."

    That might very well be *THE* funniest comment I've seen on this site in the year+ I've frequented this beautiful place :)

  • Charles B.

    I'm soooooooooo tired of the evolution pollution. This was mildly interesting had it not been 1 and 1/2 hours of evolution propaganda!

    What separates man from ape is our moral ability to know and experience God, or to choose not to. That's the difference.

    Not worth my time that I wish I had over to live.

  • http://financialsalvation.us/ princeton

    LOL yea.. this website's awesome.. the comments alone r enough to entertain.. now on to watch the documentary

    i think all religees have been scared off.... :(
    or maybe they converted :)

  • David

    @Charles B

    'What separates man from ape is our moral ability to know and experience God, or to choose not to. That’s the difference.'

    Thank you for that well researched and informative scientific statement, I guess its case closed on that issue.

    Just out of curiosity, do you have any evidence to support such a claim? (that doesn't come from the Bible).

  • Charles B.

    David: I just watched nearly two hours of evolution puck and not once did they mention anything spiritual about humans. That's extremely unique. What "evidence" do you need? That which is most obvious was totally overlooked by this documentary because of it's unadulterated bias towards evolution. You can turn your back on the very God that created you, but animals do not have that moral understanding or choice, no matter how human-like they are.

    nonetheless, some of the experiments were interesting. It would be better for you to ask "How do they make all those unfounded assumptions about what happened when millions of years ago without fossils to back them up?" For example, they assume that our jaws are the result of a mutation rather than the superior plan of God, therefore they make up 30 minutes in the story to show how it came about, complete with animation. The skulls they showed were not ancestors, but of extinct apes.

    I would enjoy a little science without the evolution pollution solution always prompting their own atheistic bias everywhere.

  • Bogdan

    @Charles B

    What?!

  • ez2b12

    @ Charles

    Watch it again and when they come to the part that upsets your religee brain just turn on your ecclesiastical white out. You know the same stuff that allows all you guys to continue saying that we have no fossils or proof of evolution, or gives you guys the ability to define theory absolutedly incorrectly over and over again. I'm sure it will blot out the truth for you once more and you can enjoy the doc.

  • ez2b12

    @ Charles

    That came off a little harsh, you know I am joking around with you. I do see it as the truth though.

  • Jim

    hmmm.... evolution is "atheistic bias".... hmmmm... donuts....

    Well nobody said it yet but it has to be said... "it's only a theory anyway!" "Crocko-duck!" "Why are there still monkeys if they all turned into humans!!?"

    BWUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

  • Charles B.

    ez: There is enough mystery left in the ancient past that we don't know all the answers. A rare animal that hasn't been seen for 10 years was just found again and then promptly died in captivity in Laos (the Asian Unicorn). Obviously it wasn't extinct for the past 10 years, but who knows now? Maybe that was the last one. But, with the fossils, they keep finding complete animals and then try to form "family trees" from them. I wonder how many are contemporaries but not as common and therefore not as many fossils.

    I'm not convinced of the "young earth" theory, but I am convinced of creationism. I'm just unsure when that took place in Earth's history.

    But as far as mental "white out" is concerned. Atheistic evolutionists are the most narrow-minded unreasonable people I've ever met! They absolutely refuse to hear any other possible explination for anything. And that's the truth.

    Peace to you as well. Good night.

  • Achems Razor

    Human vs. animal mating rituals, were not so different after all!

    Baboons, live in rather promiscuous groups where a receptive female decides she wants to get it on, all she has to do is shake her "booty" in front of her chosen mate (I've seen this tactic used time and again in singles bars).

    Before and during the consummating of the mating ritual, the female will emit a distinctive groan with her mouth closed and cheeks puffed out in human terms, this often results in neighbor complaints and a police officer knocking at the front door at that crucial moment.

  • Joe_nyc

    Wow..I couldn't stop watching. Absolutely fantastic video. Who could have known that a mutated jaw muscle is responsible for sending men to outer space. V - this was informative and entertaining - much thanks to you. And as for the comment made by TDF resident religee, you are incorrigible.

  • Randy

    I've been a proponent of the "Aquatic Ape Thoery" for a long time now, which to many "traditional" Darwinian scientists makes me a "loonie", I guess... it certainly didn't win me any friends among my biology professors, LOL!

    I like the thoery, I would not fight to the death for it, but it makes sense to me based on the circumstantial evidence. Of course, there is no fossil evidence backing it up. That's because to get it you have to excavate in areas that were underwater 100,000 to a million or so years ago, and many grant providers think that would be a waste of money to look for human fossils there. I can understand that... spend your resources where most likely to produce results...

    But, the circumsantial evidence, as I say, is compelling. The following will be off the top of my head, as I don't google anything so forgive me if I mis-remember something:

    The idea is that every species of land animal has one or more aquatic corellary/corellaries, ie, cats=otters; dogs=seals; pachaderms=walrus; bovine=manatees; birds=penguins; reptiles have dozens, obviously; insects and arachnids, obviously and on and on.

    Where's the aquatic primate? The proboscus monkey spends a lot of time in the water but doesn't live in it, for example.

    There are physical signs about us that are interesting when compared to aquatic mammals:

    We have a subcutaneous fat layer, only present in aquatic mammals.

    We cry salty tears, as do only aquatic mammals to balance the eye's PH levels against salt water.

    Sparse body hair like that of aquatic mammals.

    Large, flat palms and feet pads, good for paddling, maybe?

    Downward facing nostrils, good for diving, maybe? (like the proboscus, in fact, the only other primate known to swim alot...)

    It may even explain our walking upright. As we evolved in water, our pelvis flatened out to fascilitate swimming, once the water got too cold, we left for the land again, and now we had to walk upright...

    There are dozens of other physiological co-relations, but I will leave it there, you guys can use that google that all the kids love these days, to look up more, if you like.

    As I say, there is no fossil record, and until there is, I will not fight to the death for it. It is a pet thoery, but if it is proven wrong, I won't be crest fallen about it.

  • i am become death

    "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
    -Thomas Jefferson.
    The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also." -Mark Twain.
    "The fact that a believer is happier than a sceptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality". -George Bernard shaw.
    “Truth, in matters of religion, is simply the opinion that has survived.” -Oscar Wilde.
    "Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis." --Sigmund Freud
    "We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." - Gene Roddenberry.
    "If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." - Albert Einstein.

  • solenoid

    These animals developed a bit different approach to intelligence from us. They are still very practical in tools and puzzels, self aware and great short memory.
    I've heard of a bear that was trying to fool the hunters, by walking backwards in the snow, and leaving footprints that points the opposite direction the bear was actually moving. I think, I'm not smart enough for this kind of intelligence :))
    So we as human beings aren't special, nor we are far superior in everything. If God exist at all ;) , we aren't his favorite creatures and he probably don't care about us! :)
    Some of the monkeys shown in the video have more human properties than some human beings. The gorillas and boy was a nice example. Dolphins are the other.

  • SimonTheSorcerer

    @Bogdan
    BEST comment ever! My exact reaction....:)
    There is no need for argument here you can never convience someone like that. You can only pray to God (irony), that he is not supporting something else, which is equally stupid but might be even more dangerous like Nazis.

    from Albert Einstein "There are two things, which are infinite the universe and human stupidity."

  • Collette

    The DNA doesn't lie.

  • Randy

    @solenoid

    Yes, indeed. I have written as much many times on this site. Humans are not the pinnacles of nature simply because we figured out how to drive cars or build Las Vegas. Indeed, those things may make us LESS evolved!

    But, don't make the mistake of imbuing animals with magical sweetness. Chimps and Dolphins, for example, can be viscious, cruel, RACIST animals that engage in all manner of human-like horror. Chimps will eat the butchered babies of an opposing troupe if the mood strikes them.

    You may still be able to catch on YouTube a video of a gang of bottle-nose dolphins torturing and drowning a speckled dolphin, for apparently no other reason than it was a different "race". (and this kind of activity has been observed many times from both species...)

    Finally, any animal will try to kill you if it thinks you pose a big enough threat. But, you are right, we are no different than they, and we do the same things they do. More proof for your point, I think.

  • Randy

    @I am become death

    EXCELLENT quotes, my friend. I never knew Gene Roddenberry said:

    “We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes."

    I have read the quote before, and loved it, never knew it was attributed to him. That is great! (And, explains a lot of Star Trek episodes...)

    Thanks.

  • solenoid

    @Rady
    Animals are cruel, but hey. I agree. We humans invented laws and punishment to protect weak individuals in our society. if there aren't any laws and none cares what the other do, look what will happen with us in several weeks :) Something like after the hurricane Katrina in New Orleans. People become animals.
    As for the Dolphins. When few of them kill millions other dolphins, because they think they are a different race, like we already did in WW2 and other "events" :)
    I also would kill an animal if I think it pose a big enough threat. :)

  • Randy

    @solenoid

    Agreed.

  • QueenBee

    @capricious: Glad you enjoyed my comment! =D

    @Randy: I've read several books about the aquatic ape theory, I agree that there's something logical about it! It may not be the only reason we're the way we are, but I bet it played a role somewhere along the way.

    @everyone: I surely do enjoy the lively debates and information people present. And kudos to to vladtko once again for a great find!

    I'm not a creationist, I'm not religious. I don't consider myself an atheist, either--but I also don't think 'atheism' is a religion or religion-substitute of any sort. All atheists do is question the existence of god(s)(ess)(esses). We'll get no proof 'til after death, anyway.

    Being atheist doesn't lessen anyone's capacity for spiritual thought. It's annoying when the proponent of a religious sect wants to pass judgment on me for not subscribing to their particular world view. I don't need to them to subscribe to mine, after all.

    My personal view is that 'religion' developed as a form of social control when humans started living in groups large enough that an individual could not know all his or her neighbors--after we transitioned from hunter-gatherers to farmers and town-dwellers, and procreated our way to urban congestion.

    Political and social control, to keep people interacting reasonably with strangers, is precisely what codes of ethics such as the ten commandments are designed for. In other words, they "socialize" us.

    Ethical behavior is essential to any social animal; dogs as well as chimps know the difference between fair and unfair. We humans just have the capability to argue with one another about it--so we need rules to keep it (reasonably) civil.

  • ez2b12

    @ QueenBee

    While I think you have the right concept about why religion was created in a way, your timing is a bit off. Well that depends on what you reffer to when you say religion. If you mean the organized monotheistic traditions you are right. But religion of a whole different nature existed when we where hunter gather tribes.

    These where polytheistic and not so organized. They where also usually anamistic or astrological. On a different thread I made a list of the first polytheistic gods for Ur, the first known city, and the Mesopotamian region. You can actually follow the progression of religion from these primitive pollytheistic traditions right on through until it has evolved into the Judaic, Islamic, and Christian traditons.

    For instance: When man stopped depending on hunting as a primary source of food and started depending on agriculture we see the gods become more astrological and elemental than when we where hunters and had mostly animistic gods. I believe this makes perfect sense as they wanted to control and understand the weather and seasons at this point. When we where hunters we wanted to control and understand the animals we lived with and thier habits, so we had animistic gods.

    Eventually we see the Jewish people or the Cannanites take these old polytheistic traditions and change them into a monotheistic and more organized religion. In my opinion they used it exactly as you said, to socialize and unite thier peoples. This way they did not get assorbed into Egypt to the south or Mesopotamia to the north. You can find both of these cultures influence in Judaism and Christianity as well as a Phoenician influence.

    Anyway I thought you might find that interesting, its just my assesment. Well I actually adopted it in college from other theology majors. But it makes sense to me. I have been writing on it for several years and hope some day to get it out on the web at least. It, along with a long drawn out explanation of the myth of Lucifer falling from heaven to become the devil, will be my presentation for the theology department's year end fling we always have.

    We usually invite a local church's pastor to come speak as well, theologian or not. Its only fair to look at it from the spiritual point of view when debating. The pastor usually does his thing- explaining the spiritual significants of faith and his translation of the scriptures or stories we are covering - and then the theology department has a assistant or actual professor to speak and a student. Its a fun and interesting night usually.

  • Randy

    @QueenBee

    Very well put, all around. I particularly liked this:

    "Ethical behavior is essential to any social animal; dogs as well as chimps know the difference between fair and unfair. We humans just have the capability to argue with one another about it–so we need rules to keep it (reasonably) civil."
    --------------------------

    Epicurus, Achems, Erin666, and myself (and many others) have been banging this drum on the site, (against the folks who say there can be no morality without god or the bible... I just shuddered...), for months. The other guys, probably longer.

    Thanks for that!

  • Randy

    @EZ

    I think QueenBee was trying to generalize in his/her (no assumptions here), comment. I'm sure she/he understands what you are putting forth there, but she/he didn't want to write THIRTY PAGES OF TEXT LIKE YOU DID!

    LOL, I'm kidding you, EZ, you know I love ya!

  • ez2b12

    I'm obsessive about stuff I am interested in, sorry. No offense taken though.

  • ez2b12

    @ Charles

    You said: "Atheistic evolutionists are the most narrow-minded unreasonable people I’ve ever met! They absolutely refuse to hear any other possible explination for anything. And that’s the truth."

    Let me get this striaght. We have solid proof, actuall scientifically valid evidence and you guys refuse to even admit it exists. But because we refuuse to entertain pure conjecture and non scietific assertions, we are narrow minded. Surely you jest.

  • ez2b12

    @ Charles

    Besides I grew up in the church with a pastor for a grandfather (dont go here please). I did look at it from your point of view, it looked like a load of bs- sorry. I still go to church for other reasons now, because I think religion is interesting, but I still can not make myself believe what I do not. I am currently taking a Study of The Old Testament. In this class we assume everything in the bible to be literal, for the sake of learning. I still can't buy it. Can you say you have truly looked at it from our side? I don't think so.

  • Bogdan

    I am reading these comments and I am astonished that there are people in the world that watch these documentaries and say "This is atheistic propadanda"....I am from Euroupe more precisely from Roamnia, a poor country and we steel learned in school the basic things about biology and physics and RELIGION....those cimps understand what this documentary is about more than some people.
    This is living proof that humans are apes because there are people creationist for example that are more close related to apes than to humans.

  • Randy

    @Bogdon

    Yes, sir. Well said.

    I have corresponded with many of your countrymen over the internet, (mostly in online games, yes I am old, but I am still a giant NERD! What of it?!?), and I have found them all to be highly educated and a lot of fun to talk to.

    Plus, one of my favorite historical figures is Vlad Tepest, and I have always wanted to go to the annual Dracula festival in Romania, but alas, no more plane flights for me, nowadays...

    Anyway, looking forward to reading more of your posts...

  • Galloway Grumblefield

    **********
    Amazing! This is by far one of the better quality documentaries I have seen. Excellent.

  • Epicurus

    @charles, i like how you ignored my comment then just said man knows god and thats the difference. if you mean, man can create myths and supernatural explanations for things that have natural explanations then pass them on through intricate traditions and cultures due to the way we learn (as was shown in this documentary) AND because of language. then yes i agree with you.

    man does have that ability. which animals dont....lucky animals.

    you certainly are a trip. you dismiss the SCIENTIFIC study of a well made documentary just because it doesnt fit your indoctrinated world view. that is messed right up. the cognitive dissonance you must feel day to day has to be tough on your psyche.

  • jono

    @ Randy
    Sorry, you don't know if you agree with a statement unless you know if Simon is pro or anti! Sorry mate either agree with his argument or don't based on the actual argument.

    @ ez2b12
    While I absolutely agree that the election was stolen a HUGE number people voted for Bush. Oh, and just by the way being of Irish decent makes you of Irish decent, the phrase "I am 100 percent American now though" really just clarifies the fact.

    @capricious
    That might very well be *THE* funniest comment I’ve seen on this site in the year+ I’ve frequented this beautiful place :)
    Didn't really see any great humour in that, maybe cause I am from Europe.

    @Charles B
    Propoganda, hmm, did you mean the absolute and irrefutable evidence? Just thought you may have been confused.

    @Charles B.
    "I would enjoy a little science without the evolution pollution solution always prompting their own atheistic bias everywhere"

    I think you may be a little off beam here, evolution does not necessarily mean Atheist. Many very fine evolutionists believe in a god form. They just don't subscribe the the fairytale of various religions.

    @ Randy
    Don't let anyone stop you thinking your own thoughts and ideas, when evidence arises that either confirms or refutes your ideas then consider how to move on. Science in some quarters can be nearly as bad as religion in stifling free thought.

    QUOTE "Chimps and Dolphins, for example, can be viscious, cruel, RACIST animals" So my friend can men sadly.

  • Randy

    @jono

    Well, as I stated clearly, Simon's sentences were muddy. At first glance they seemed one way, then upon further reading they became vague... I still don't know what a "transhumanist" might be, frankly.

    And when I spoke about the cruelty of animals, it was a pointed comment AT humans, I thought that was clear.

    So, what you wrote: "So my friend can men sadly..." was really un-needed. I think. And the punctuation should have been something like:

    "So, my friend, can men, sadly..." don't you think?

  • Joe_nyc

    According to Darwin's theory of Survival of Fittest and from understand how successful genetic mutation adapts to it's surrounding I predict within a century non-religees and religees will clash, the way Homosapiens and Neanderthals did, for the domination of world resources and ideologies. And because non-religee's edge on intelligence over religees, the latter will be subjected and turned into working class to better serve humanity.

    People, whether we like it or not, some of us have definitely mutated and are evolving off current branch of life.

  • Joe_nyc

    ez2b12

    Read many of your comments and you STILL goto church. You're a masochist. I only go twice a year(I have a powerful mom) and I still can't stomach the way the sheeps gaze upon the blabbering preacher as if he is the god himself.

  • Randy

    @Joe_nyc

    I hope you are right. But, I have a different view. Mostly that view is very dark... I know you have kids and this can be upsetting... please remember I am just a guy who is pretty fed up with life, so... I'm biased like that...

    This is my view:

    The cavemen always win. The animal/superstitious will always conquer the intellectual. The intellectual tries to reason, the caveman reasons with teeth and claws.

    The caveman always wins. Until the species burns itself out. Then the planet moves on... no biggie.

    But, I'm probably a big crazy person and no one to listen to!

    BTW, very nice comments you have made of me, recently... Thank you!

  • Dr. Dunkleosteus

    I'm so glad to have this website and you guys to converse with. This really is a wonderful place full of intelligent minds and foreward-thinkers.

    I would respond Wanda's comment, but it seems she just came in to throw some feces and run (nice ape analogy, right?!) and her comment doesn't even warrant a response anyway.

    I thought the jaw mutations exhibited in the doc were right on. As our jaw muscles got smaller, our brain-cases got bigger, allowing for bigger brains. Perhaps this mutation will continue and we will see a new budding-off of humanity. The doc "Homo-futurus" (I believe that is the correct spelling) on this site gives a good idea of the possible future mutations the human species may experience.

    Evolution is a reality. Frankly, anyone who chooses to deny or ignore it is, by definition, in denial or ignorant. The truth may hurt, but at least it's the truth.

  • Randy

    @Dr. Dunkleosteus

    The sad fact is, people would rather believe a comfortable lie, than a hard truth.

  • solenoid

    I would like to say something about people telling that the video is atheist propaganda.
    Actually..the video is made to be convincing. There are certain moments that are edited in such a way to work toward a certain idea. For example, the part with the black box and the white box. The chimp never actually performed the whole ritual knocking the box with the stick and in the end it could not managed to put the stick in the hole. Then the video jumped to a frame when the stick was already in the hole and the chimp just pulled it out.
    The other one was with the lady, the dressed doll and the orangutan. She claimed the the monkey actually understand whole sentences, but it looked to me, that the orangutan performed a well trained sequence of actions and nothing more.
    There are other moments that look a bit like...hmmm.
    I need to watch the documentary again. :)

  • Epicurus

    @solenoid, the chimp would have taken a few tries to get the stick in the hole because chimps dont have the hand eye coordination that we have. they are still a little clumsy in that way. but i dont see what point you are trying to make by stating this. they edited it because they know the audience didnt want to watch the ape miss the hole for a minute.

    The argument that to you it looked like a well trained sequence of actions is just based on how it looked to you. however that is a scientist there working on something she would really like to know. she is going to control for simple variables like that.

  • Randy

    Video is video. It's a magic trick. There is editing and the fact that nothing is really moving, it's all an illusion... etc.

    The thing is, chimps and all other apes have been studied closely by scientists for hundreds of years.

    The scholarship, the documentation, for all of this and more, is overwhelming. We are apes.

    This is fun. Books are best.

    Just agreeing with Epicurus there...

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    I've just wiped out huge amount of comments here. What the hell happened? Enough.

  • Randy

    Thank you, Vlatko. That got out of control...

  • solenoid

    @Epicurus
    Well, I explained, but my post was being deleted as well as tens of others. Of course it was a post of arguments, and very civil in case you think it was too offending and got deleted because of that.
    I'm outta here, actually. No conditions for a normal conversation with other people.

  • Randy

    I apologize to everyone here, and to our host, Vlatko. That was entirely my fault.

    I am very insane about racism, and my protecting my wife... I have no control, there.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    Well sorry @solenoid. Probably some of your posts were collaterally deleted.

  • Charles B.

    I logged off for an hour so I missed whatever was said for the last hour. Sorry for my part as well, Vlatko.

  • solenoid

    No worries Vlatko :)
    And by the way , thanks for the site!

  • Randy

    *Randy fumes at Charles B. his eyes needles of Satanic hatred*

    I'm fine... I'm fine...

  • Joe_nyc

    Randy

    Yes you are right about NYC. I am married with 12y boy and 13y girl.

    Now, what were you saying about New Joizy way? :)

  • Randy

    @Joe

    I don't want to open this up again, but, if a man talks about your wife in a "suggestive" or racist way, wouldn't you need to give him a beating?

    I mean, I'm as civilized as they come... sort of... but, you know, you don't talk about a man's wife, without his, or more importantly, HER permission.

    I was saying that's the Jersey way, and I am pretty sure it's the New York way, as well.

    Many a man has wound up in the hospital diss'ing another man's wife...

    Is all's I'm sayin'

    There is what men say to each other... and then there are the wives. A good man protects his wife.

    I am a BAD man, and even I know that...

  • someone

    for those who have faith , there is a possibility that when God create in genesis it could be a progressive creation .So the idea evolution is not so far fetch.having said that i am not saying that man are animals

  • Randy

    Look everybody! A new target!

    @someone

    Really. Do tell? So, humans are not animals, then?

    What are we? Aliens? Angels? Vampires? Goblins?

    I like goblins...

  • jono

    We are Trolls ^^

  • Randy

    Trolls are good. I like trolls. You got the whole "Norse" thing going on...

    Plus there is the human flesh eating... which you know I love!

    In medical school, I disscected human bodies. It was the same as when I cut up fetal pigs, cows, cats, dogs, all of us mammals are all the same.

    No big deal.

  • jono

    Not really sure about the whole human flesh thing, although I doubt I would hesitate for a nanosecond if it were a case of survival for me or mine.

    Have had Dog though, at a roadside kebab outside Moscow.

  • Randy

    Never had dog, don't think I could eat it... I could eat human though... that should tell you something.

    But, I was a child in North Corolina, (not really raised, more like held captive), and there they eat everything that moves.

    I have had squirrel, rat, frog, eel, racoon, opossum, good lordy Batman, anything you can name, but not dog or cat.

    In fact, if you are interested at all, and I am sure you are NOT, I had more trouble cutting up animals in medical school, (comparative anatomy), than humans.

    I like animals better than humans.

    I guess I'm not winning any Humanitarian Awards this year...

  • Reasons Voice

    Well glad I missed that one. To the topic and the doc., also the coments. I believe yes humans are apes and that other primates can be quite inventive. However I also believe that it is symptomatic of out human superiority complex to insist that our cousins are just sooo smart. In point of fact there are many species of bird, rodent, etc and etc. that are quite intelegent and able to perform tasks like these and even more complex ones. But *gasp* how could a simple Austrailian kia bird be smarter than cousin bobo? Researchers need to beware of the fact that repetative testing can lead to learned patters and result in false findings. Quite simply the lion and the persian house cat are related. Yet look at how superior the Lion is to it's box pooping cousin.

  • Randy

    @RV

    I was with you right up til the cats...

    Of course, all dogs are, man-made, genetically altered wolves, (Even peekanese! Which is mind blowing, eh?).

    But cats... although, of course they are related to lions, cougars, tigers, and all other cats on the planet...

    Their ancestry is a bit more... muddled, than dogs. That makes sense, as dogs were always more helpful and, let's face it, friendly, than cats. Humans, do not spend a great deal of time and energy studying them, (although that has changed over the past 10 years or so...).

    The latest studies I have read deal with the domestic cat being descended from a small, arid (desert) environment feline, probably from the Lynx, or... having trouble remembering the name... Ibis? No that's a deer, I believe...

    Anyways, my studies, seem to indicate a Middle Eastern, desert species that the Egyptions probably domesticated first, the Chinese soon after, and then on and on.

    But, only about 4500 years ago, unlike dogs, which have been with us for as long as maybe 15,000 years.

    Holy Batman. I fell asleep while typing that... you guys must be bored to death with this post, I'm sorry...

    And, I am sure I made huge mistakes, please feel free to correct me...

  • QueenBee

    @jono: My 'banana comment' was an oblique reference to the documentary "Discovering Religion" on this site (Ep 6, the first 3 1/2 minutes). Watch that and hopefully you'll get the joke =)

    @Randy: You can assume "her" for me =)

    @ez2b12: I was pretty specific: "...groups large enough that an individual could not know all his or her neighbors..."

    I didn't specify mono- or polytheism; there were (and still are) plenty of large groups, city-states, and countries that functioned quite well under polytheistic religions--Rome, for example; India, China...On a side note, iirc, monotheism was introduced into Egypt (albeit briefly) before it entered Judaism.

    Think 'stranger-danger' and you'll get my point about the need for formalized structure in a large group of humans.

    What better way for a ruling class to rule, than by capitalizing on our need for spiritual belief and codifying it to serve civic requirements? That is why I differentiate between the terms 'religion' and 'spiritual belief'. The fear of god [et al] is powerful, indeed!

    We're talking about the difference between living in a society where an individual would know by name--or at least by sight and reputation--everyone they came in contact with, as opposed to the hundreds of unknown people one could interact with on a daily basis in an urban setting.

    Once people become 'anonymoous,' behavior changes, as anyone who partakes in an online community well understands!

    It seems we had a demonstration of that on this very comment page, (I missed it!) and our site's supreme being came in and swept it all away!

  • jono

    @Queen

    Ahh thanks for that, I don't really watch many of the religious docs so obviously missed it. :)

  • Randy

    @RV

    You know what? As I read over your post and compared it to mine... my post was kind of ridiculous, and added nothing to yours, which was just fine without my input.

    I'm sorry, sir!

  • QueenBee

    @Reasons Voice: So, which one has another species feeding it, grooming it, catering to its every whim and cleaning up its poop? My cat waves hello! =D

  • Randy

    @QueenBee,

    Yes, of course. And my black cats wave at you!

    I have spoken at length about this here and in papers I have written... (not any really GOOD grades...I suck), that the domestication of animals and plants by humans was, by the species involved, like winning the lottery.

    It is a symbiotic relationship. We might eat them, or restrict their freedoms, but in return, they no longer need to struggle to survive. We feed them, nurture them, protect them from predation...

    All they gotta do is sit back and breed. So what if we eat them; that was going to happen to them anyway in the wild.

    Anyway, your post put me in mind of that.

  • Achems Razor

    Ha,Ha, that was funny @QueenBee: "Vlatko" is our supreme being!!
    So much for the defunct "Batman" or even "Randyism" EH??

    New religion, Yes?

  • Randy

    @Achems

    Et tu, Achems?

    Your heresy is noted...

  • Randy

    And lo' Randy looked upon Achems-- placed His seal upon him. And Achems shook, and his humours became as still as coal.

    The world grew dark and groaned low...

    Achems gasped and struggled for breath, and without, the world split and the heavens fell upon him... a great torrent swirled him within the Maelstrom...

    "Alas," Achems cried, "Why Randy, hast thou forsaken me!"

    And Randy looked down from his lofty perches and said, His voice echoing o'er the mountains (of Canada!), "Because you pi$$ed me off, dude!"

    (I just made that sh*t up off the top of my head... ya'll)

    I love you Achems, you kooky Canadian hippie!

  • Reasons Voice

    @Queen: It was not my intent to cast a negative pall onto your hairball hacking mouse nazi. Simple use to show that there are "better" versions of all genus/species on the planet. That is after all the core of natural selection and thus the root of evolution.
    @randy: no harm no foul. Your comments are always appreciated wheter they are you best work or not.

  • Randy

    @RV who wrote:

    "...hairball hacking mouse nazi..."

    OMG!!! I called my wife over for that one... very funny.

    A mouse nazi... the images... well, there was a comic book wasn't there? "Maus" a graphic novel showing the holocaust allegorically with cats as Nazis, and Jews as mice?

    Does that apply? Could that be what you are thinking of RV?

    I'm just riffing here...

  • Reasons Voice

    @Randy; Never saw the graphic novel you refer to just my personal take on felines. Good to know I'm not alone in the world there tho.

  • Randy

    @RV

    Indeed. You could google it if you have mind to.

    The graphic novel is like, from the 80's so, I haven't thought about it in many, many years, your comment just brought it up, is all...

    Funny, though... (not the graphic novel, very dark...), your comment.

  • QueenBee

    @Reasons Voice: 'Better' lies in one's criteria for judgment.

    Yes, lions can take down wildebeest. My 'mouse nazi' (love that! I have the Maus novels, too, Randy) is totally useless in his presumed role. He thinks mice and crickets are windup toys to be gently patted at as they run in frantic circles...until he gets bored and walks away.

    However, since cats evolved to catch prey the size of mice, and lions evolved to catch prey the size of wildebeest, they are each pretty well adapted to their particular niche. My cat still has all the equipment and reflexes for catching mice. He just lacks motivation. There are millions of cats in human homes around the world, but only a few thousands of lions anywhere, sadly.

    As to your original post (before the cat part!), I do agree with your assessment of our human-centric thinking. There are many more types of intelligence than just our human/primate kind.

  • Randy

    @QueenBee

    Yes, of course, human intelligence is very crude compared to many other animals on the planet. As RV and I have said many times on the site.

    Speaking of lions, you know that lions are considered the only "social" feline species. But have you noticed, as I have, that domestic cats, exhibit a social structure, or a communal society that belies that assertion? (That was an ENORMOUSLY pompous sentence... sorry...)

    I grew up with cats my whole life, I kind of identify with them. Love dogs. Just can't dominate them like you have to to have a well behaved dog, (why I don't have kids, I suspect... besides the fact that I do not like them...),

    Anyways, studying cats, I have discovered that they seem to have a very rich and complex social structure that is subtle, but very observable.

    Do you see that, as well?

  • http://newspeak.zonkzone.net Immo

    I loved watching that Japanese man imitating "ape speech". Those apes are beautiful. They are as divine as any other creature in the universe. Humans are not any better for sure. Just take a look on our footprint on this beautiful planet. All those apparently "amazing" tools. What good to anyone do they really do?

  • Ijan

    I really find funny to think of god and human purpose via religion thinking. Someone says we are moral creatures and so on...I mean, do you think that you life is more serious and important than ape life, or any other animal life??? They also have life struggling, care for offspring, piece and war, social network and behavior...and for them they survival and their lives are most important thing. They do not care about your moral believes! They are "life" same as we are, they have sense of living, which is equally important as yours sense of living, and they do not care about your moral smart talking. Beside, moral is bind strictly to human understanding, and it changes during the time, as human change during the time. Now we think bad of slavery , now women are equal as man, now your child is not your property but another and free being, now we think of people as equal and stop believe in rulers and Pharaohs and so on...can't you see that moral evolves as well? And do you really see sense in religion concept of creation???? Everything is created because of Man? Black holes? Tornado's? Radioactivity? Bacteria? Dinosaur's? Mosquitoes? Apes? Earthquakes? Volcanoes? North pol? Jupiter moons? I mean wtf!?
    Do you remember experiment where children keep doing same thing as they learned with that black box and food in it? Religion is the same, people keep doing same thing, until someone smart and brave say: stop doing that, it is simply not right, earth is going around the sun! After that things changed. But as it seems, every time has it's believers and re-petitioners and every time waits for it's brave and smart people to change human thinking, human moral and human understanding in better and right direction.
    So, keep believing and I'll keep waiting for some new and smart people of our time to make an end to old fears, believings and prejudice. BR

  • Randy

    @ijan

    Well! That was an enormous block of text!

    I read over it as carefully as I could, it was hard, but...

    I think I agree with you... Although you might have poked a stick at me... that's fine...

    Anyways... um... OK?

  • jesussaved

    Where did DNA come from? Where are its origins?

  • Epicurus

    @jesussaved,

    The idea is that originally it was an RNA world. RNA and DNA are very similar- there is only an extra oxygen on RNA sugar that is missing from DNA (and one of the bases is different)

    But this extra oxygen makes a huge difference- it makes RNA more reactive than DNA. The good thing about being more reactive is that it means that RNA can actually act as an enzyme- in other words it can actually do stuff- it can chop up other RNAs, make more RNAs, even make proteins which are very good enzymes. As George pointed out, DNA can't do this (as far as I know). For some reason (and this is a really interesting question- but probably deserves a whole different post) some RNA molecules started making more RNA molecules- and those that were good at it kept going and those that weren't, well you don't see them around anymore.

    Then some RNA molecules started using other molecules in the environment to help them make more copies of themselves- eventually making proteins and cells to protect themselves from getting destroyed and to keep the things they made to themselves. So being reactive allowed RNA molecules to start increasing in number and complexity. However, being more reactive has its downsides- it also means that RNA is more sensitive to getting destroyed. Therefore, in comes DNA- DNA is much more stable. So whenever long term storage is needed DNA is used. RNA is still used to translate the DNA into proteins and as some enzymes to do many functions in the cell. But when keeping the data intact is really important, DNA is used.

    There are still some viruses that only use RNA to store there information- they are subject to high rates of mutation- but then, this has some advantages for a virus.

    now jesussaved....where did god come from? and would you say that just because humans dont know where something came from that is a good argument that there must be a god? or would it be more honest to just admit you dont know and not believe in some fairy tale.

  • Marian R.

    @ Epicurus

    Now be prepared to answer the question where did RNA come from, how the first cell formed, etc until you get in the murky waters of science and someone comes in and says that that's where god comes in. It's the classic strategy.

    I always hate to see that type of argument for the existence of god or the inaccuracy of evolution. Just because we don't understand some details in the mechanism doesn't mean we don't understand what the mechanism does or how it works on other levels.

  • jesussaved

    Google: Laminin.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    Cross-shaped protein molecule. Not another creationist.

    The Cross was a pagan spiritual symbol which is adopted as the Christian cross.

    The formation of that molecule has nothing to do with God. Get real @jesussaved.

  • Reasons Voice

    The only logical argument against evolutionary theory is this; The evolutionary chain is incomplete with jumpy distinctions. No smoothe transitions have been found to complete the picture. The real bugger to anthropology is that so very few bones let alone entire skeletons are fossilized. That provides a loophole. With that fact perhapse homo sapiens has been around for far longer than we think and quite simply we have no fossil records. On the flip side that fact goes toward resolving the leaps and bounds transition record of human evolution. Botom line is while evolutionary science is quite sound there are holes. Untill the holes are plugged there will always be room for fringe argument. Creationism is just one fringe (a far reaching and mind numbingly ret@rded one)that exploits the loop holes. I believe evolution is fact however incomplete it currently is within fossil evidence. I believe because of dna research.
    For a long time Neandertals were included in our developmental chain and were later remover. With new discovery perhapse lucy will be too. We simply do not KNOW.

  • Achems Razor

    That is right! google..."pagan symbols adopted by Christianity"

  • Tellz

    I never EVER Ever ever post on blogs. But I have to admit when I started visiting this site. I was soooooooooooooo tempted to put my 2 cents worth in... which is a gooood thing... I think.

    You may have noticed by now that i am not that interested in Gramma ,PUnKtuashun or spelling... soooo get over it. A lan gu age is phone et i cal anyways sew i just hope u all hear what i am tie pin :)... anyways... back to the point...

    I'm just here to say hi... and a doc on the E word seemed a good place to attract all the right eyes lol... I have been watching Docs on this site for a few months now so I feel I had 2 give credit where credit is due VLAD... YOU ARE A GOD!!!!... oops... didn't mean 2 offend :)...VLAD U R a hero...

    Keep`em coming and thank you very much... the rest of my post is 2 all the usual suspects.. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE... razor,Y,Charlie,Sadie and all the rest... Hi... and are u all into music... if so R any of u on Last.fm.

    If not then i hope u like the site... i often find that someones taste in music tells me more about a person than the posts they drop on sites such as these... Bi the way Sadie... thank you 4 the Tim Minchinn tip...loved it...TIDY .

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    Well... thanks a lot @Tellz. Cheers.

  • Randy

    RNA molecules are actually abundant in space... or at least the basic building blocks.

    There are so called "black clouds" of matter that drift around through space. These are vast, dense clouds through which the Earth often passes through in it's orbit.

    Also, comets, meteors and asteroids often trail this matter with them, having passed through the clouds, and bring this material into Earth's eco-system.

    It's fascinating stuff! And we have excellent documentation for it. We can see it happening, all the time, so we know it happened in the distant millenia, as well.

    That's were DNA comes from. Space, really...

  • Randy

    Yes, Vlatko, all of the christian symbols and holidays come from paganism.

    Ronnie James Dio wrote: "We pray to someone; but when it's said and done, it's really all the same--- just got a different name..."

    You know, I am an atheist nowadays, but my wife still practices Wicca, so we often practice together or with other Wiccans... (full moons, Hallowe'en, special sabbats or esbats... just for fun...)

    I get a kind of pagan vibe from you Vlatko, even as I think you are agnostic or even athiest... certainly science and rationality based...

    You are a difficult one to read, because you don't write much on the site, and that is good... but I am trying to get a "bead" on you.

    Sorry, can't help myself... I analyze and discect...

  • Achems Razor

    @Randy:

    Have friends here that practice Wiccan, reads tarot cards etc:
    I think that Vlatko once mentioned that he leans toward buddhism, no?

  • Randy

    @Achems

    I know that Epicurus has written of some Bhuddist leanings... mostly, I think, because they don't try and mess with anyone, which is I why I have no arguments with them, certainly.

    But, Vlatko? I don't remember him writing anything probative of that... but... I could certainly have missed it. It's hard to find his posts... they are sparse and generally terse.

    That's a good thing. He's smart like that...

  • Achems Razor

    @Randy:

    I could be wrong of course, but am sure he will correct me if so.
    Know this is off topic, but now that you have completely F-r-eAked out our friend Charles, wonder if we will ever see him again? (LOL)
    You did not really mean it did you? Ha,Ha, I know you didn't.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @Randy it is very difficult for me to abstinent from writing on these walls but I have to if I want to run the site... properly.

    I'm not a pagan definitely. I was never religious and from my young age I was certainly science and rationality based. But I'm baptized and married in a church due to the pressure from parents and relatives.

    Everything was going carelessly excellent until I had a face to face encounter with the "death". I "kind of" discovered that people can get old and eventually die. Everything crumbled and had no meaning, knowing that one day I'll parish.

    At that point someone gave me two books by "Osho". I've read the books in the hospital. After that I've read many books from this "guru" until I got saturated.

    So I started to read everything else related to Religion, Gurus, Sects etc.: The Bible, Dhammapada, Mahabharata, The Qur’an, Alan Watts, Gurdjieff, Krishnamurti, Blavatsky, Chopra... etc. I've read many, many books.

    And believe it or not I've found nothing. There are no answers in all of that. For me at least.

    Probably I was agnostic at those times. Totally respecting the science but not knowing if there is God. Now maybe I can be labeled as an Atheist, although I don't like that word at all. It's a wrong label.

    So probably I'm an atheist who finds Osho (he is a lunatic and I don't agree on everything with him) and eastern philosophy teachings very close to my understandings.

  • Randy

    Hey, man... in Jersey, that kind of talk about a man's wife without her permission?

    That will get you a beating... Sorry...

    That's just how I roll. Plus... lately I've been getting a real creepy vibe off of him...

    But you know, I said I would take a bullet for him, and then he dissed my wife...

    That will not stand...

  • Tellz

    I was taught mirror magic by a wiccan friend once a few years back and to be honest i still use it a little when i feel i need to give myself a kick up the arse and live a bit :)

  • Randy

    @Vlatko

    Ahhh... thank you. Yes, I have found the same things... I've read all of those books and there is no "there" there.

    Well, to a christian, of course, you would be considered a pagan, or at least a "heathen" LOL!

    As am I...

  • Achems Razor

    @Randy:

    Yes, understood, since you are a man of honour, that is the way it should be, I should not even of asked.

    @Vlatko:

    Never heard of "osho" since I am perpetually curious, will look it up.

  • Tellz

    Bearing in mind the topics usually pondered upon on this site,Quantum effect this and devine that I for one am glad that the universe alighned itself in such a way that Vlat is still very much with us and as a result able to provide us lucky f@#$%&* with such a rich and diverse outlook upon the world and all thats in and around it :)..by the way Vlat..sry for calling you VLAD in my earlier post lol..what can i say..my eyes saw Vlat, but by the time the signals were fired from my brain to my fingers my mind had already played half a dozen reruns of 70`s Hammer films :)

  • Tellz

    oops..I typed a bad word and now i Have to wait to be moderated...SRy...won`t be doin` that again :)

  • Tellz

    I thought it auto censored..next time i will be more careful

  • Tellz

    My Bad :)

  • Reasons Voice

    Osho is an interesting read. Oddly enough in my home town there is a sushi place named osho. I dated the daughter of the owner and she introduced me to it. Didn't really fit me right but like Vlatko said he was a bit of a loon.

  • Randy

    @RV and Vlatko

    Yes. I've read some of Osho's work... it gives me the "heeby jeebies" as they say...

    I like sushi, though!

  • Tellz

    I do have one question for those more knowledgable than myself on this topic (bearing in mind that i am posting under the thread of Human Ape because it seemed the most apt header for me to be typing under given the amount of brandy consumed by this point :)....What are the differences,if any,between those who propose Intelegent Design over those who are considered creationist?

  • Randy

    @Tellz

    The Intelligent Design movement is actually a cover for biblical creationists, trying to use some sort of scientific miasma to confuse people into allowing them to teach the bible in schools.

    The ID movement, as a political movement in the USA, is veiled christianity.

    However, science does not exclude the idea of some unknowable, amorphous, "Prime Mover..." but, as there is no evidence, the question is meaningless.

    What is not measurable, is irrelavent... (sp?)

  • Achems Razor

    Have watched some of "Osho" videos.

    Quite enjoyed them, nothing to be scared of people!
    Meditation and stuff like that, some very relaxing. Liked when he said in one video that God is dead, was never born!
    The religee's should love this! not. (LOL)

  • Randy

    Osho, like most of the new-age, or as Penn & Teller call them, "newage" (rhymes with "sewage"...) proponents claim that meditation and a certain "construction of mind..." will change your life... etc.

    Here's the deal: Meditation, is m@sturbation. And, frankly, for men, (I will not speak of women only for my own gender.), studies are conclusive. M@sturbation (sex in general) accomplishes the same thing as meditation.

    It lowers blood pressure, balances the immune system, and in fact, men who do it five to six times a week have much less incidence of prostate cancer then men who do not.

    And the important point, meditation takes longer. Don't you have better things to do? Like M@sturbate?

    Meditation is cool, but as Joseph Campbell said, (paraphrased), "Watching a movie is a meditation. Reading a book is a meditation. Any activity in life where you focus and concentrate on a single object is a meditation..."

    So... you do it all the time... you don't need any of this newage stuff...

    Anyways...

  • Randy

    I mean, I know the science of women, but they get much more touchy about it then men, so... out of respect for women, I do not go there...

  • Sadie the Celt

    When you guys post - you seem to use 'google' 'wikapedia' ad nauseum!

  • Achems Razor

    @Randy:

    You are probably right about meditation, anyway, would not have enough patience to like sit like 20 minutes or so, doing nothing (LOL)

    @Sadie:

    Use google? why yes I do sometimes, is there something wrong with that? Like against some kind of law?
    But I never use Wiki!

  • Randy

    @Sadie

    I never do... It makes the brain lazy... I do not even use spell checkers, obviously...

    Google is fun for looking up where to get a new sound system... or some song or TV show you like... But, I find the internet useless for scholarship.

    But that is just me... many here would disagree.

  • Randy

    Oh, and that is nothing against this site... which I love as an oasis of learning and discussion of valid topics...

    But, the internet does bring out the crazies... like myself, actually.

  • Sadie the Celt

    its just an observation - and something that worries me somewhat - for obvious reasons, the implications are scarey.

    its like a 'cha-ching' - a 'eureka' moment for me realising that I a 'pitting my wits' gainst 'bots'(?) - and whilst I COULD 'join the club' its NOT my style - (to be a piece of mistletoe on the tree of life)!

    blackout!

  • Randy

    @Sadie

    Yes.

    I really understood very little of that last post of yours.

    Why would anyone think of you as a piece of misletoe?

    I'm confused...

  • Achems Razor

    @Sadie:

    I dig what you are saying, what really irritates me the most is when some people cut and paste from the web, trying to sound smart about things they know not much about, like some religee's trying to do their science thing, to refute evolution etc: usually from biased websites.

  • Randy

    @Achems

    True stuff, eh?

  • Achems Razor

    @Randy:

    Ha,Ha, it is only fitting that you learn Canadian, since I am learning Joizy language youse guyses, EH!

  • Randy

    LMAO!

    Excellent! Very good, my friend.

    Do you guys still use the word "hoser" or is that very "80's"?

  • Achems Razor

    Hoser? I believe that was a term from Alberta, when they were running the "Moose Head beer" commercials years back, there was a sitcom on TV about Hosers. " Ya know what am sayin"

  • Randy

    And, to let you know that I am not making fun of you, or making light of you ar any Canadians...

    We have much to be thankful for from Canada. I loved "SCTV", "Kids in the Hall", Willaim Shatner, RUSH!...

    Canadian beer... you know... lots of awesome is from Canada!

  • Achems Razor

    yes, we had, and have some top flight talent,

    And our beer, like 12% proof, not knocking US beer, but 3 or 4% proof??

    Of course that was back in the days. (LOL)

  • Achems Razor

    Where did our "goil" Sadie go? we did not scare her off did we?
    Come back Sadie, promise to be nice, cough,cough.

  • Randy

    Yes, true stuff!

    When I was in college, can't remeber the year... probably early 80's, RUSH had a song... The chorus is spinning in my head now... it was inspired by an SCTV skit that was very popular at the time...

    The chorus was:

    "Take off! To the Great White North;

    Take off! It's the beauty way to go...

    Take off..."

    And on and on... there was a movie... ahole thing, do you remember that?

    Anyway, I would love to Take off! to the Great White North...

  • Randy

    OK, that was supposed to be, "there was a movie, and everything..." but all these asterisks showed up...

    "Everything", is a bad word now?

  • Achems Razor

    Actually yes, va-g-u-ely remember that song.

    Seems like we have to invent a new type of language to circ-um-vent this moderation system, can't hardly use any 4 letter words anymore or anything, wonder if there is any money in inventing something that could b-eat moderation,

    I think people first coming on site think none of us know how to properly use language, probably saying what a bunch of i-g-n-o-r-ant-s.
    I know not Vlatkos fault, moderation system has a m-ind of its own.

  • Randy

    Yes, I am certainly mindful of Vlatko's resposibilty and the fact that he doesn't want trashy language scrawled all over his wall.

    But, you know... when I use an author's name, or the title of a book, or the word, "everything"...

    I'm just sayin'...

  • Achems Razor

    Yes, anyway will leave all that in Vlatko's capable hands,
    Am going to bed now, so will bid you a fond good evening, Randy.

  • Sadie the Celt

    Scare me? ....Shame on you Achems! - I must admit I like 'raw' uncut, uncooked meat......(in the abattoir of knowledge)
    And its patently obvious who is using their brain - and whose using the web.
    like I said, Im really new to socialising online - Im useless at it, but thats the VERY reason why I 'plod on'
    and I think it goes without saying who I respect the most!
    But Randy - you dont have any self-deprecation, well you dooooo, but its brash and 'in ya face' - u need more sensitivity - ( I know all about MS.... believe)

    heres a curly one
    a suggestion! - or a challenge! why doesnt everyone blog from their HEART?
    yes! throw that google out the window!
    burn Wikepedia for heresy!
    Sling Bing - slam dunk!

    because if you dont - everything you put your name to, is quite frankly MOOT!!!

    Heres a curly one - (a suggestion)

  • Sadie the Celt

    @ Achems

    I love that word! thanks for teaching me THAT! - grateful x

  • Sadie the Celt

    Ive been unable to post cos Ive been using my pc without kaspersky installed - ive got a nasty infection

    jeeze is this tantamount to have intimate relations without a condom?

    now theres a thought

  • Sadie the Celt

    @ Achems

    GOIL huh? hahahahahahahahahaha
    (Ill getchya.....and Ill get Randy.......Im picking my moment.....)
    nice 1 - x

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    Not a problem @Tellz.

  • Charles B.

    I'm still here, Mr. Razor. I was thinking about changing my penname, but if I leave any comments, my character will not change and so I decieded to just keep "Charles B."

    But, if I'm going to be beaten (to death?) for something while my kids watch, I think I'd rather be beaten for my faith rather than some misunderstanding about internet humor. He has the oddest sense of humor here (i.e. human "Christian" hamburger, satanic references, etc.) and I didn't spaz out about that. Appearently I accidentally stepped on his "red button" issues.

    As far as the racism, it must have been traumatic to see a family of black people lynched when he was a kid while the murderers sang Christian hymnes, but that's misplaced agression. The wicked by whatever name they go by will get theirs eventually. That's why the Bible says that God's judgment begins in the house of God (with the Christians in name only the first to be judged).

    I just finished a 3 week sermon series exploring the "Love of God," and I Cor. 13 makes it very clear that "lovelessness," even among "Christians" gains you nothing. It's impossible to lynch someone "in love" I do believe. Those are children of the devil; what we call "wolves in sheep's clothing." Unfortunately, they do make the real "sheep" look pretty bad sometimes.

  • Randy

    *Randy seethes at Charles B., his eyes needles of Satanic hatred+

  • Hesus

    @ Charles

    beating someone to death is a terrible thing to do and letting the kids watch... to me Randy sounds like a man posessed by evil spirits with cannibalism and all. Very disturbing.

    If what you say is true than there is no doubt in my mind that demons are out to get you. Manifested in Randy to test your faith. Not surprising as you are the only messenger of the Christian Truth here. First he tryed to make your statements appear as false and after failing to do so threatening to take your life.

    Think about it. He even knew what you were doing the other day. How is that possible? Interaction solely through this site is not enough to for him to KNOW what you were doing!

    And yet Charles you are the only one here that can help Randy. To exorcise the demon from within Randys soul. If it is not too late... however despite him admitting that he is a bad man he seem to struggle with his demons so I have hope that his humanity is not all gone.

    For your families sake I hope you save him.

  • Randy

    Interesting.

    I never threatened Charles B. with death. That would be illegal.

    There are worse things than death, you must believe me.

    Plus, this is all internet fantasy.

    But, I am certainly filled with demons. Yes. Big hairy demons. Love 'em...

  • Achems Razor

    @Charles B:

    Well, you where not scared away! good for you, hope you did not loose any sleep from his solicitations, it seems than I am picked as the go-between, anything else you would like to say to Randy, will relay the message for you.

    I do not care what Randy says, I know his heart is as big as Texas, Ha,Ha, so you can rest your weary soul, and probably cut down on your praying somewhat.

    Sadie, my gal, am waiting for when you pick your moment to get even, ha,ha, but expect to get hurt! will hold back no punches, not saying that I would ever punch a "Goil" though! hmmm

  • Randy

    *Randy seethes at Charles B., his eyes needles of Satanic hatred+

    Good morning, Achems!

  • Sadie the Celt

    @ Achems

    your personality is coming through loud and proud! whilst Randys' (personality) kinda jumped out of a bush and punched me on the nose (tho it was mercifully quick)
    I like you all - viva la difference!
    now im off to the pub with my girlfriend Petra - and Ill be drinking the "guest ale" - which is 'Bishops Finger' this month and @ £1.95p a pint (or 568 ml) is truly a bargain - they keep their pipes clean in Wetherspoons Cardiff! (in a sodium metabisulphate type of way)
    (@ Achems - its 6.1% - & goes down eazy (no pun intended)
    bibiography - sadie the celt (copyrighted to Vlakto)

  • Randy

    Well Sadie,

    That's just a Jersey mobster for you.

    As I have said before, "Go f*ck yourself" is the same as Good Morning? in Jersey.

    In New York, "What the F*ck!" is the same as "Hello"!

    We are a rude people. You know that... ugly Americans and all that rot...

    Good beers you are talking about there...

  • Randy

    But still, Achems taught you the word "moot"?

    That's like a fifth grade vocabulary word. I thought the European educational system was better than America's...

    What happened?

  • Sadie the Celt

    @ Randy Randy Randy!

    Petra just texed me - now stop winding me up you sloth
    ive got bigger fish to fry....
    ill be able to hook up to wi-fi via e71 in wetherspoons - and will post you all beers/prices/strengths - im sure vlatko will allow me this indulgence cos its the weekend!and Achems will be gagging for the knowledge

    HOMEWORK for Randy;
    find the Celt a new word to use
    (you have 4 hours) no conferring

  • Sadie the Celt

    @ Randy
    Im axe-ing u a question Randy
    If yr nose runs
    and yr feel smell
    are you upside down?

  • Randy

    @Sadie

    It could be an allergic reation...

    Someone would have to draw blood and do a histamine panel, to determine the cause.

    I know how to do that. Am I having a histamine reation in your little riddle?

  • Sadie the Celt

    @ Randy
    I dunno Randy - yr the doctor - u tell me - see, i have to delegate after 10 pints of Bishops - so cut me a bit of slack you cruel man
    oh and where my new buzz word godammit! x

  • Sadie the Celt

    @ Randy

    You are 'cute' - yeah Ill show you smarty pants! you love me - I make you 'edgy' - and if its any consolation Randy - yr not the only one so join the queue - and get over it

  • Randy

    Yes, I am cruel, but fair...

  • Sadie the Celt

    @ Randy

    I dont know how to respond to fair - i really dont

    but I can whip you into a frenzy with my latin - ?

    and I can have a dark side - but thats 'extra'

    life is cruel - and so am I

  • Charles B.

    Hesus: Yes, that thought did cross my mind, but I've dealt with demonic elements before, as has my wife, and so I'm neither ignorant, nor overly concerned about any form of attack therefore. I'm always careful but confident. Thank you for your advice. The best defense against demonic attack is a pure heart in Christ.

    Charles B.

  • Charles B.

    P.S. It is true no one was threatened with "death" but if you have a physical confrontation, it's always possible to "accidentally" escalate or overcompensate on my part and someone gets really hurt.

    Peace to all

    Charles B.

  • Randy

    Not if you know what you are doing.

    Trust me, I'm a doctor.

  • Achems Razor

    @Charles B:

    I am reading your posts, it seems you are a little worried. But nothing that I can about that, it really is none of my business what happened between you and Randy. That is something that you have to resolve yourself.

    I don't know why you are worried about your demons so much, they are only in your head after all. No way to live Charles. And sure do not know exactly what Hesus was talking about. Was none of his business also.

  • Achems Razor

    But as "Rubin Hurricane Carter" has said, writing is a weapon, its more powerful than a fist can ever be!

    He is a jersey boy, raised and bred.

  • Randy

    As you said above, Achems, it's an honor thing...

    Silly? Yes. But very primate male... I understand where the instinct comes from genetically, and I am fine with it, frankly.

    The christians have them, too, they just deny them and repress them.... You have to embrace your "darkness" to conquer it.

    And thank you for saying I "have a heart as big as Texas..." that is true... until you break ny rules... Then, the werewolf attacks.

    Figuratively, of course...

  • Sadie the Celt

    I keep hearing 'Irish' - from 20%-50% ancestry claims, why is this? whats so effing special about Irish roots?
    And before anyone 'kicks off' at my profanity, its my right. my Dads Irish - but my Mother is Welsh (oh both 100% give or take a skin cell)
    Nobody seems to know anything about Celtic/Gaelic - at times like this I need Eireannach666! - oh, and a nice fat Documentary on the Potato Famine please Vlatko!

  • Achems Razor

    @Randy:

    Like have said before, Christians to me, march to the beat of a different drummer, and as Epic: has said before, he doesn't know if he is talking to children, or schizophrenics. (LOL)

  • Achems Razor

    @Sadie:

    Do I get any points by saying, "mo chuisle"?

  • Randy

    Achems,

    That is a very tolerant, Canadian, attitude. I respect that.

    But, in America, where we are drowning in hypocrisy and christians are eating the Constituion of the United States for lunch...

    Well...

    Keep in mind, our next president may very well be Sarah Palin, or at least some other christian mouth breather...

    Believe that...

    And they will have their hands on the biggest gun in the world...

    Think about it.

  • Randy

    Oh, and the important point, that is all because of people like Charels B. Check his comments on "God's New Army" on this site. Or, "Jesus Camp"...

  • Achems Razor

    @Randy:

    Yes, it seems to me that your Constitution has flown out the window. Like 80% christians there I believe.

    Myself would be very fearful to live in the US. Would not even go there to visit anymore. I used to, saw the Grand Canyon, Carlsbad caverns, Disneyland, went to Texas etc: but that was then!

  • Achems Razor

    @Randy:

    Yes, do know all of Charles comments on all the blogs.
    Did you see the ones where @Reb: really laid into Charles, poor Charles (LOL)

  • Randy

    @Achems

    Yeah, it's hard, man... you gotta be tough to live in this feral environment.

    A line from the movie "The Departed" comes to mind, as Mr. French, an Irish mobster was beating a bookie for not paying his tribute to the boss, (Jack Nickelson):

    "This is America! If you don't make money, you're a d**chebag!" And then there was beating...

    It's True Stuff over here, my friend...

  • Randy

    Yeah, I liked Reb, he was an aggresive athiest like myself.

    Also, well read.

    I have not seen him in a long time, I hope he is well.

  • eireannach666

    Huh, where has reb is a good question. I like that cat as well.

    Laterz.

  • Charles B.

    Ok. I checked; no Dr. Randy e-mails so we'll let things stand as is. Off to the store to get milk and bread and fruit for the kids.

    Vlatko: You do have a wonderful set up here! I watch more docs now than movies by far! Keep searching, as God says that He will be found when we search for Him with our whole hearts. I understand that to mean only those that really want to find Him shall.

    Peace to you as well.

  • Randy

    @666

    Good morning, my Gealic brother...

    I KNOW!!! I can't get my hands on the paper from Hadron... is kind of driving me crazy...

    Don't flirt with Sadie, she is a party girl. Party girls are fun until they puke on your shoes....

    Then they are just annoying. (A quote from "House" I am evil...)

    I mean, she didn't know what the word "moot" meant...

    C'MON!

  • jari

    I enjoyed every effing bit of this documentary! Very well made, eye-opening, and also funny.

  • Sadie the Celt

    @ Achems

    I had to succumb to google - but it was worth it.
    tidy!

  • Sadie the Celt

    @ Eireannach666

    'branch manager on the tree of life'....thats a wikkid analogy Im dumbstruck (and smiling)
    ill checkout that science 'URL'??? im still in diapers figuratively speaking (when it comes to internet) but on the real - Im deffo Miss Whiplash!
    high 5 Eire yr a legend! hahaha

  • Sadie the Celt

    ok! I feel like a 'Country Bumpkin' - my 1st cut and paste url was a resounding success, but my excitement was short lived, as I am now overloaded with information.
    (I am like a dog with 2 tails!!)
    @ Eireannach666
    so the synopsis is that the CERN HQ in Geneva have a 5.2 billion dollar machine, that is looking specifically for 'Higgs Boson' (right?)
    But what they have actually discovered is a phenomenon, circular is shape and about 16.8 miles (radius or diameter?)
    on the border of France and Switzerland.
    This phenomenon could actually mimic the Big Bang?
    and they are awaiting confirmation?
    Is this right Eireannach666?
    OMG this is scarey
    bit I like scarey....cos we got each other right?

  • Reasons Voice

    We have wandered so far from topic here, but I have to say that LHC and cern will potentially kill us all. They actually contemplate creating a black hole. Create a black hole...here on earth...no nothing could possibly go wrong there. I mean, what harm could an endless matter sucking hole in the cosmos do? Epecially here on earth where really smart people can look at it real hard. I am quite sure that it would behave it's self and not tear our planet into particles and swallow it like so many M$Ms. Cruriosity killed the cat.

  • Reasons Voice

    Oh yes they also considder creating a small sun. Again no possible down side to creating a one cajillon degree nuclear anomaly. I am sure they built the collision chamber out of Supermantanium which we all know cannot be melted by miniscule sun temperatures.

  • Reasons Voice

    Side note; I find it interesting that often the strongest proponents of evolution and mans being "just another ape/animal, are also pro socialism. If we are just like any other animal should we not be inclined toward the more survival of the fittest capitolist model? Dunno just my mind wandering.

  • Epicurus

    The LHC will not, can not, and does not plan on making a black hole. it is not doing anything that is not happening all the time here on earth. it is only doing it in a controlled setting where it can be measured and observed.

    The LHC is helping us understand more about dark matter, about how particles reacted in the first nanoseconds after the big bang and hopefully will enable scientists to make a unifying theory of everything.

    it is not dangerous and not a waste of money. actually it is very very very cheap when compared to other things countries spend their money on.

  • Randy

    @Epicurus

    Indeed, the amount of energy being used there is so tiny it is harmless... unless you are a single atom...

    Don't believe Dan Brown!

  • D-K

    "Reasons Voice09/27/2010 at 19:03 We have wandered so far from topic here, but I have to say that LHC and cern will potentially kill us all. They actually contemplate creating a black hole. Create a black hole…here on earth…no nothing could possibly go wrong there. I mean, what harm could an endless matter sucking hole in the cosmos do? Epecially here on earth where really smart people can look at it real hard. I am quite sure that it would behave it’s self and not tear our planet into particles and swallow it like so many M$Ms. Cruriosity killed the cat"

    The irony between your handle and your unreasonable position is so thick I could schmere it on a bagle. Do you know WHY the media takes a sensationalist approach to presenting current events?

    Any idea what sort of impact a TOE would have on modern day society and development trajectories? Have you a clue to the potential scientific implications of a functioning TOE?

  • Reasons Voice

    @Randy; You should know me better than to assume my opinion would be swayed by Dan Brown. If I was one to follow a fiction writers ideas I would be getting my theton levels counted at the local scientology reading room.
    @Epic; The idea of creating both black hole and artificial sun were put forth by those who comissioned the LHC in a documentary. Yes right now what is being done with it is harmless. The same could be said of atomic fision technology before the bomb.
    @D-K; Overlooking your superior attitude all I can say is that there is a reason to be concerned. I am not for stopping the studies nor am I aganst the pursuit of knowledge. However time has shown us again and again the smart people with big toys often can get out of hand.

  • Randy

    @RV

    Actually, our evolutionary inclination is naturally toward dictatorship. We have always had a pack, or troupe-leader...

    But, we are trying to evolve past that... some countries/tribe do it better than others.

    It will take, maybe, more time than we have left to get it right. Much more evolution...

    It's either that, or extinction... either way... no big deal.

  • Randy

    @RV

    My Dan Brown statement was a general one and not really directed at you specifically...

    I'm sorry, I did make that unclear...

    But, the idea is used in his book, and by some strange internet, not very bright, "scholars".

    (BTW, scratch their surface? There is bible stink coming off of them...)

  • D-K

    @Reasons Voice:

    Please disregard the notion of a me enforcing a superior attitude, I had no intention of coming off as such. Your sensationalist comment just stood in stark contrast to your handle, that's all.

    Before you feed your concern, perhaps you should crunch the numbers for realistic probability. Example: I for one, am concerned that I may be struck by a meteorite whenever I leave the house, however, the chances of this are so infinitesimally small, that it would be irrational for me to harbour such a concern. Even moreso due to the fact that it's out of my control. (hyperbole comparison)

  • Achems Razor

    @Randy:

    "ROTFLMAO" Party girl?? p-u-k-e on your shoes??

    Priceless!! Ha,Ha,Ha

  • Charles B.

    Ok. Very boring conversations today. I've much to do, so now I need to focus on other tasks.

  • john

    @charles b...better get right with your god..the day of judgement looms. ROFL!

  • Charles B.

    John. I AM right with God. The "day of judgment" shall not be a bad day for me! I've longed for the day when I see Him Whom I have believed in face to Face more than once. But I agree with you, it's closer now than it was a day ago!

    Hum. No other comments here for two days? That's a bit odd.

  • Charles B.

    John. I AM right with God. The "day of judgment" shall not be a bad day for me! Hum. No other comments here for two days? That's a bit odd.

  • Charles B.

    Where is Dr. Randy? I worry about him when I don't see his posts. I hope that he's just busy and not having a flare up of his MS.

  • Galloway Grumblefield

    Non-judgment day is coming! Tax the churches.

  • D-K

    @Galloway:

    Every day is non-judgement day.

  • jono

    Maybe the day of judgement is coming because of the LHC O.o

    JK folks

  • Randy

    @Charles B.

    Look, man, you have nothing to fear from me, really. If you know my posts you know my baseball bat handling days are far behind me, and I can't even fly in a plane any more because of my MS.

    But, you pi$$ed me off and insulted my wife, and took no responsibility for your actions, like your church teaches... typical!

    ("if it's bad, the devil did it; if it's good, god did it, I'm just a pawn..." that is serial killer thinking, frankly...)

    Go, live your life. Be happy and free as a fawn!

    Hallowe'en is coming...

    RANDY

  • Charles B.

    Ah, that's better!

    I was actually concerned for you Dr. Randy (mostly). Humor via the internet just looses something along the way as you can't gage the 90 percent of communication which they say is non-verbal and it's hard to tell when somethings catches a nurve until after the disaster happens.

    If you can't come visit me any longer, maybe I'll try and swing by New Jersey when I'm in the neighborhood (but that's highly unlikely in the near future.

    Peace.

  • Sadie The Celt

    @ Charles B.
    @ Randy

    I am ashamed to admit I feel quite 'choked up' - youse guys are a great duo!
    Im back on Court again tomorrow so Ill be bit 'bogged down' with legal stuff but Im keeping my eye on youse so play nice!
    Sade x

  • Charles B.

    I'd like to meet Vlatko, Mr. Razor, and Sadie as well. As far as I know, no one's even close to me here in Korea! Epic seems too "up-tight" for me. But he's an occasional pot smoker! An up-tight toker is an oxymoron, isn't it?

    Topdocs helped me make the decision to be more "tollerant" of weed puffers in general. But still, not something I recommend; wear it, write on it, make rope out of it, use it if needed as medicine, but not so keen on private party use!

    Peace to Epic and to all! :-)

  • Randy

    @Sadie

    Never say that. Never. I swear to whatever god you hold sacred, if I ever disscovered that were true, I would put a bullet into my left eye.

    Charles B. and I are polar opposites, my darling!

    He is evil--- I am good. (His god is Satanic, although he does not realize it... science shows this to be true, his bible is a Satanic bible...)

  • Sadie The Celt

    @ Randy

    so you and Charles B. are 'polar opposites' huh? hmmmmmmmm let me think a minute...............

    ive thunk, whats that about polar opposites attracting? (as in magnetsism)?

    missed you Randy!

  • Randy

    Thank you, sweety!

    Don't P*ke on my shoes... oh DAMMIT!

    You scots could never hold yer liqiuor... (just kidding!)

  • Charles B.

    I don't feel "evil" but you are right, I'm not good. I'm nothing apart from Christ!

    Ok. Fun story time! This one's to brighten Dr. Randy's day . . . . We went to the hospital on Sunday to pray for Deacon Yun's mom who broker her leg. We prayed so fervently that everyone else in the hospital wing (like 4 other people) wanted prayer too! Ya gotta love Korea.

  • Achems Razor

    @Charles B:

    AH! the final frontier! KOREA, wonder how many places are left to spew your, as Randy our CEO says, "satanic verses", hmmm? (LOL) so funny!

    See, what did I tell you? Randy does have a heart as big as Texas, no knocking on your door in the middle of the night by black robed figures wearing upside-down crosses and with aluminum appendages. (LOL)
    So rest easy!!

  • Randy

    It's easy to be a christian in South Korea, the most christ-y place on Earth, (even more than Italy, if you can believe it!).

    Try to be a Satanist there, or an Atheist! Hmmmm....

    I would vanish in that place and my wife would be at the U.S. State Department saying, "I'm pretty sure I had a husband... long hair... pointy goatee, sometimes crippled, bought Stephen Hawking some Arby's a couple times... Anything?"

    I would be mouldering in a trunk somewhere, right where the good christians left me. Whatever...

    (I have a lot of South Korean friends who live in America-- who are waaaay more intelligent than I, but fled South Korea because of christian persecution...)

  • Sadie The Celt

    @ Randy

    scottish huh? now thats pure insult - (sit back and relax Charles B.) this ones mine! grrrrrrrrrr

  • Randy

    Sadie, did you not write that you were Scottish?

    I have said repeatedly that I as an Irishman, love the Scots, no insult was intended... I was merely repeating the information you gave me.

    What I suspect is that you have no self identity. That is a serious problem for you. I have watched you latch onto any strong personality on this site, that is sad.

    Talk to your psychiatrist but understand this above all other things: no MALE, (including your father) will complete or define you. Only YOU must do that. You must do that FIRST! Then all other things must follow.

    You have grave work to do, my darling.

  • Reasons Voice

    I love the Scotts!! Scottish and insult is an oxy-moron. Especially when they been drinking. That heavy brogue on booze is fun as all hel1.

  • Charles B.

    I'm so ignorant, sometimes! Sadie said "Welsh" didn't she? But I'm not entirely sure what people group that is. It's not "Scottish" is it? My co-teacher is Irish and he explained a little to me about Northern Ireland and Ireland, but it only made matters more muddled in my mind.

    I also have a lovely Christian friend from Cornwall, U.K. is that close to you, Sadie?

    Dr. Randy: I don't support "moudering" people in trucks; that's just plain not nice. So far I've survived whever I've found myself (I used to work in the Muslim headquarters building in the Philippines, but not actually for them)--they're more likely to "trunk" someone than Christians are at the moment.

    Death in Korea is usually by "traffic accident" rather than by militant Christians.

    I vaguely knew my barbar was a Muslim in Manila, and he'd come do my hair at my house especially for me, but I didn't realize how bad of a temper he had until he got mad at the water truck and knifed one of the kids working there; he was wanted for murder before that even. LOL. Glad I always treated him kindly and paid him well! I think the boy survived however.

    My wife when 8 months pregnant wouldn't let me go to the market alone. I asked her, "Honey are you afraid I'll be raped and robbed by some wild woman in the market place?" She said, "Raped and robbed would be ok, but I don't want them to kidnap you for randsom, because we don't have the money to buy you back!" :-)

    Never a dull moment in the "ghetto"! We just built a new house there, and one man was walking by our house litterally licking his lips, and I asked who he was, and they told me, "He's the neighborhood super sneaky thief!" Comforting thought. Must not be too sneaky if they know it's him!

  • Sadie The Celt

    @ Randy

    No Randy - I never said I was Scottish! my Father was 100% Irish, and my mum is 100% Welsh.
    thats why I am a Celt - seems Charles B. has a better memory than you!

  • Joe_nyc

    (I have a lot of South Korean friends who live in America– who are waaaay more intelligent than I, but fled South Korea because of christian persecution…)

    LOL - Randy sorry but I have to steal this line..it's too funny

  • Randy

    @Sadie

    Yes, I went back and re-read the first post I ever read of yours and it says that you were, "...often confused with being Scottish...".

    My mistake... of course, that post also had a long history of your family and a bunch of stuff about a xmas vacation and... blah blah blah...

    I really only commit to memory those people and posts that interest me. I only half remembered that one...

    I also forgot that you had a daughter and was once married to an American... oh well... I'm sure I'll forget all of this again, too, frankly.

    So, sorry to have confused you with a Scot, (although, there certainly is no shame in that! Scots are wonderful people!).

  • D-K

    Gave us golf and man-skirts. And Braveheart!

    Good people.

  • ashbreaksstuff

    I laughed so hard when that dude was making chimp sounds. lol

  • Hooty Toledo

    There seems to be much (understandable) confusion regarding Britain/UK/England/Ireland/Wales/Scotland,etc. Hopefully this will help:

    Great Britain is comprised of Wales, Scotland, and England. If you add Northern Ireland to that list then it is collectively known as the United Kingdom.

    However as to whether England, Wales, Scotland, and N Ireland are considered independent countries seems subject to definition and opinion.

    Sorry that wasn't specific/relevant to the doc, but i guess the subject of threads can evolve too...(see what i did there?)

    As for the evolution vs creationism debate, it seems to come down to whether you can assess evidence with a rational mindset or not.

  • max

    @hooty toledo.

    Whether England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are independent countries is not subject to definition, It may be to opinion, but legally, politically, culturally etc, they are independent countries.

    and the republic of Ireland is a different thing entirely as it is in no way joined to the United Kingdom politically.

    The issue of Northern Ireland and the republic of Ireland is a separate one again.

    Anyway, the point was they are independent countries and that is, legally and politically at least, not subject to definition.

  • hypotheticallysapient

    Unfortunately, this doc failed to distinguish the difference between Chimp selfish co-operation and the astonishing Bonobo altruistic co-operation with the plank test. Where Chimps failed, do to their Machiavellian thinking, Bonobos succeeded time after time, not only sharing the food, handing pieces over prior to even taking a bite. Nor does it mention the jaw-dropping long term memory capacities of Orangutans, their ability to think abstractly and draw conclusions after careful consideration. Nevertheless, quite informative ... I didn't know about the accidental discovery of the jaw muscle mutation, softening the skull to gradually accommodate a larger brain.

  • aaa

    every evolution denier needs to be made to watch this doco

  • Gunnar Reiersen

    Several evolution deniers posting here have watched this documentary, and it doesn't seem to have changed their minds in the slightest. IMHO, denying the fact of evolution is aproximately on the same intellectual plane as insisting that the Earth is flat and the center around which the rest of the universe revolves. I wish we could all get over the false dichotomy that either God or evolution but not both can be real. Even among biologists with strong religious convictions, the percentage of them who deny the fact of evolution is very small.

    One of the silliest claims made by religious believers is that only humans have souls. If there is such a thing as immortal souls, I can't imagine any valid justification for assuming that other living organisms are any less likely to have them than humans. Either all living organisms have some immortal essence that one could call a soul (that could perhaps be what distinguishes inanimate matter from living things), or none of them (including humans) do.

  • Auditore

    Watching doc now and just had to jump in and comment about the "short-term" memory test and claim that apes are better at it than humans. That looked like more of a case of "photographic memory" I mean is "short-term" memory remembering what happened .65 milliseconds ago??? Love da doc tho.....

  • nancy blu

    Good doc.
    The bit i found interesting was in the Learning Test section, where Billie the chimp dispensed with the by the rote example she learned by way of the scientist and the the black box routine, believed what her eyes told her and went straight for the prize where she could see it, as opposed to all the children tested, who went by rote, even though they could see the prize. I thought the conclusion drawn was strange, or perhaps, not fully realized. Yes, while this may denote the ability to learn complex steps in humans, i wonder had Billie not been able to get the prize the way she did, would she have fallen back to the method she learned from the black box experience. Given the termite tool test, it seems likely she would. Also, a conclusion i would be hard pressed to ignore would be that the children faithfully following the black box routine instead of believing the evidence of their eyes indicates a strong if not universal tendency in humans to disregard the obvious in the light of what, rational? Is this tendency what confidence men and the like rely upon when they perversely perpetrate their 'religions' and other shams upon the gullible and lemming like hordes?

  • nancy blu

    I was wondering that too. I have been an actor for many years, and so memorization is important to me. I have met actors or those who can memorize lines in no time at all, and this is an invaluable skill in this particular field, where one is learning great gobs of words day in and day out. Whether or not they eidetic memory or not i don't know, but this chimps ability to recall then number sequence is certainly something i would equate with eidetic memory. Whatever, sure wish i had it. I hate learning lines.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Drew-Jordan-Maharaj/1651620050 Drew-Jordan Maharaj

    a deist or pantheist could perhaps believe in god and evolution. Otherwise, the religious are so impervious to this sort of evidence precisely because the dichotomy does exist for any of the monotheisms. You cannot square the facts of evolution and history with the bible, torah or koran.

  • Angelica Guerrero

    Fascinating documentary. I really enjoy learning about evolution.

  • testicularfortitude

    Ain't no chimp 8 times stronger than me...I just can buy that.

  • Abamovich

    This is why testing on Great Apes must end now.

  • mastorbatrix

    Well testicularfortitude, isn't that why the Soviet Union wanted to mate humans with chimps in order to create a super soldier, because chimpanzees are stronger than even the strongest of human men. Even people on steroids cannot compete with a chimp's strength and endurance.

  • mastorbatrix

    This isn't about apes?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=683220045 Vladimir Bogdanov

    Unfortunately humans had discovered religion and went on a downward spiral since..

  • http://www.facebook.com/johny.abbott Johny Abbott

    lol

  • Sabin Russell

    the peanut in the tube test was dumb
    they didnt show the children how to do it before the test
    and they had mentioned the orangutans had prior experience
    if you showed a child(3 year olds for sure) how to do it they would know
    :(

  • http://ttmoc.blogspot.com/ salikawod

    yes but many people questioned religion and tried to explain the truth about things and therefore science was born. the reason we are what we all are today is because we outsmart the species arround us and learn to controle them.
    I believe religion is not the answer to how but the reason why.
    Dispite many flaws that belivers do religion lead to many great things and teach us many more.
    "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."
    - Albert Einstein

  • Rocky Racoon

    If a giant meteor hadn't wiped out the dianasour humankind would not have made it this far. A fortuitous accident for us as far as I can tell.
    RR

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Christopher-Loughrey/1089833934 Christopher Loughrey

    Well, I think mankind would learn to eradicate the dinosaurs just as it did it with all the obstacles in its quest for world domination. So I wouldn't really think this accident not happening would have made much of a difference.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/P5JE6PXVSTLN4B7PS27MUHDWE4 Mark

    I really enjoyed this documentary. Thank you TDF. Forgive me if I misuse some terminology. I am certainly no scientist. But I wonder if it can be postulated that, since the FoxP2 gene mutation has resulted in language and the consequent development of culture and technology and its transmission to subsequent generations, religion and mythology is perhaps just an example of social evolution being "stuck in neutral" or, in the case of current creationism fervor, a type of social devolution. I know it's probably a stretch, but it's interesting when thought of in that context.

  • john kay

    suddenly i am craving a banana

  • docoman

    A very interesting watch. I found the chimp's random number placement recall amazing. Hard after watching this to deny that we evolved from a common ancestor with the great apes. It makes many of the religious arguments, and human arrogance towards other species laughable.

  • richard._.cayer

    I clearly now understand that evolution would in-fact take place in extinction this reason to be said is an obvious answer. A species that underwent modification to adapt from previous genes the specie reproducing would transmit new information to their dna into the offspring’s. Years and years of this procedure would literally cause a common species to change its structure into something more profound, though it doesn’t mean that it will have more complex structures or cells that operate from previous ancestors. While this formation takes place in other babies previous structures will disappear overtime. In science wouldn’t you think previous structures been seen today, especially ancestors like Neanderthals whom would be walking around our earth with modern humans. I can estimate dna takes a great toll in evolution there must have been some genetic alteration either by the environment changes or the subconscious mind altering the whole population of the species. This idea again follows ape-men; if apes have been complex in their own dna structure wouldn’t they evolve into a non-complex orgasms, but better adaptive traits of their own kind. I find it odd that apes who underwent this law would only adapt to gain better physical traits, an ancient ape that evolved into a less adaptive human and then another evolution into a human. Though the ancient ape needed also to evolve to become more adaptive itself and afterwards became extinct, there is no logical sense.

  • Ktalk

    Mammals would not have been able to populate and evolve if the dinosaurs remained on the planet... How would we eradicate something, if we didn't even exist?

  • doar.un.alt.suflet

    it's more like humans had discovered science and took the wrong path ever since...

  • doar.un.alt.suflet

    it's true that living things have a sort of energy, but not souls, souls are immortal and they had been given to humans only because they were the only ones created to resemble God and with a piece of his own soul. it's true that nature has evolved but we didn't evolve from apes, otherwise how can you explain all the wonders that are made even nowadays by the christian priests if it's not God behind them? science is blind because it only takes after we have seen and what's concrete and that's a sort of blindness too because t doesn't allow people to look beyond what's in front of our eyes

  • doar.un.alt.suflet

    i watched it and it only made me deny it more or better said, it made me defend and strengthen my beliefs more

  • over the edge

    doar.un.alt.suflet
    do you have proof for this "soul"? can you describe it for me? you state "we didn't evolve from apes" do you think that evolution claims we evolved from apes living today? exactly what "wonders that are made even nowadays by the christian priests" are you talking about?

  • Achems_Razor

    @doar.un.alt.suflet:

    How do you think you know what you know about souls and the soul transgressions from your gods to the humans to resemble your gods? Specify!

    Of course we did not evolve from apes, apes and humans share a common ancestor.

    "otherwise how can you explain all the wonders that are made nowadays by the christian priests if it is not God behind them"?? I have not a clue what that means! Do you?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Matt-van-den-Ham/100001676372652 Matt van den Ham

    It didn't really get in to how creative our minds our compared to the dull/reactionary minds of the ape. And we also have the ability to think outside of ourselves such as 3rd person such as lying and acting, also may fall under creativity. We can imagine ourselves being something else, we have ambitions and can conceive the spiritual world or god.

  • BradInFL

    What I have learned so far (still have more to view): according to the tenets of the religion of Evolution, it is ingenious to urinate on your food. :P

  • http://www.facebook.com/charles.fernandez.H2o Krypto Keepers

    Humans didn't discover science... Science discovered humans!

  • Michael

    Try to say this with a straight face the next time you need antibiotics.

  • alhassan

    i am very serious of this ape..how can am ape become a human via rotation of earth...so we all were am ape ...this is cause by the evolution of earth

  • Patrick Cerrone

    I think we all came from the Blob fish. Some more advanced, crawled up on shore, others crawled back into the sea. Did anyone see those pictures on Yahoo? The one looking directly at the camera looked like my ex Mother in law. =)

  • Jared James

    your logic is flawed buddy, none of what you said makes any sense, its like something I would write down during an acid trip thinking I'm a genius only to stumble upon it after sobering up and being completely baffled by its incomprehensibility

  • Jared James

    I don't think what your saying is a stretch, and I think one of the mechanisms that allows for this 'devolution' is exemplified with the opaque vs clear box test in which humans consistently ignored the irrationality of their actions in terms of the clear irrelevance to the task at hand (getting the reward from the box). This is somewhat parallel to how humans so readily imitate complex religious rituals without question from a young age, despite no clear reasoning behind the actions aside from ritual itself.

  • Kath

    This is very interesting but they waste WAY too much time reassuring the veiwer of their superiority.

  • Anthony

    This is basically one big "argument from incredulity" fallacy. ie" "I don't understand it or how it could possibly work, therefore I don't believe it.".

  • Anthony

    Better get off of your computer then, hypocrite.

  • Anthony

    How can a discipline find someone? Discipline requires training and therefore must be sought after. Do you even know what "discovery" means? I think you're spilling too much woo woo nonsense into the universe.

  • whats up

    it is fact not a just theory like religious book which tortured human for long time still today
    u can challenged evolution if u have evidence .........it is science always ready to accept the truth

  • pie

    I think dino's would get eaten, humans are too cunning to not be the apex predator.think about Mammoths, they too big for a bbq but still got hunted by humans.