Noah's Flood

Noah's FloodIt all began in 1971 as a game of speculation - a bit of light relief from the rigours of tectonic and oceanographic investigation in the Mediterranean basin. American oceanographer Bill Ryan was on the scientific team which showed that the Mediterranean had been a vast desert basin until, 5 million years ago, the world’s oceans rose and burst through the Straits of Gibraltar to create the Mediterranean Sea.

Walter Pitman was helping to found the new science of plate tectonics. Ryan and Pitman’s British associate John Dewey (now Professor of Earth Sciences at Oxford) put up an ingenious idea - could a similar cataclysmic flooding of a massive basin account for the Biblical Flood - a catastrophe of such enormity that it would remain in human memory down the ages? If so, where might it have taken place? The idea never went away and 20 years later, in 1991, Ryan and Pitman began their search. This year they will announce their findings to the scientific world. Richard Curson Smith’s film takes Pitman and Ryan back to the Black Sea, where they now believe that the Flood occurred in 5,600 BC.

Filmed on location in Turkey, Bulgaria, Russia and the United States, HORIZON tells the story of the discovery through the eyes and experiences of the two scientists. Like Laurel and Hardy, they swing from disappointment to despair, to euphoria, as they pursue their dramatic idea, working with geological evidence from the Turkish navy, drilling into the bed of the Black Sea alongside a team of Russian scientists (who were tracking fall-out from Chernobyl), building in all the data available from experts in climate and tree-ring dating, and finally testing their findings on their colleagues in the Lamont Doherty Earth Observatory at Columbia University, and at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute.

Bill Ryan and Walter Pitman may have a romantic streak in their natures, but there’s nothing eccentric about their ideas. They are, says Professor Dewey, “Two of the finest American earth scientists working in the field”. They have gathered a hoard of evidence to demonstrate that the Black Sea had fallen 120 metres below the level of the worlds oceans as a result of a sudden freezing of Northern Europe and Asia which dramatically reduced the flow of the great rivers which fed it.

The Black Sea became a vast fresh-water lake. The Earth warmed, the oceans rose again and smashed through the Bosphorus Straits with the force of a hundred Niagara Falls, filling the Black Sea basin to its present level with the salt water of the oceans. The implications are enormous. Who lived by the Black Sea before the deluge? What may it tell us about the spread of Neolithic farming, culture and technology into Europe and beyond? Did this extraordinary event become the stuff of ancient storytelling, so that Noah and his Ark became a symbol for real people who were driven from their lands by a real flood?

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Ratings: 5.50/10 from 10 users.

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109 Comments / User Reviews

  1. breadthing

    ugh, intelligent designers...

  2. esmuziq

    i almost thought the russians wanted to kill the mission
    instead ... they joined forces
    now thats what i call real talk

    i wonder if the russians would have been allowed on usa soil to do the same thing without the knowledge of usa :)

  3. dustin

    Really esmuziq your going to talk about politics? This doc was about science, it had nothing to do with US and Russian relations. THE COLD WAR IS OVER BUDZ. A couple of scientifically trained geologists inviestigating an interesting hypothesis nothing more. The dates are the thing that will be argued over. There is a new geological dating technique i just learned about in University. They take sand that has been buried and can tell the last time sunlight hit the quartz. It is a very accurate date if the sand dune has been buried the whole time. It is called optical dating or photoluminescence. Hopefully it replaces carbon dating as that has a tendency to error as you have to rely on some piece of carbon found like a fire or a bone that was on the surface at one point and it doesnt actually date things like rock

  4. Shelby Sherman

    I'm certainly not going to dignify this so called documentary by watching it. A global flood is impossible and childish religious clap-trap. I don't have to watch something like this to pass judgment, just as I don't have to watch a documentary on the existence of Leprechauns to know it's nonsense. Time is better spent watching real science and there is plenty of it here.

  5. Colin

    Shelby, do you believe that you are educated? Because if you do, why come out with a statement like that?
    Leprechauns are the figments of the Irish imagination!
    Whereas an actual flood on a GLOBAL scale has been scientifically proven to have happened. Also take into consideration all the drawings and stories of the indigenous races throughout the world.
    Plus, how do you account for all the lost civilizations that are being found under water?
    Leprechauns indeed.

  6. Shelby Sherman

    Where has a global flood been proven? Educated? That is ridiculous coming from someone who obviously believes this fantasy. Please cite me one peer reviewed scientific journal that supports a global flood. Just one will doThere are so many problems with this myth that it is just absurd. For starters, where did the extra two hydrospheres come from and where did they go? Water is a non-Newtonian fluid and can't hide or compress wery well. Methinks you are an Idiot.

    A global flood would have left a very, very recognizable signature, not to mention that there were thriving civilizations during they period that this temper tantrum of god happened and there is no mention of such a catastrophe.
    This is not even worthy of debate.

  7. Reasons Voice

    Really Shelby, Why must you be like all the other anti religion atheistic cry babies on this site? There is overwhelming evidence that points to global flooding found on every continent on earth. The story of Noah is simply used as a draw in to which many can relate. Most likely 80% or more of the population of the world is aware of the story and can therefore relate to the topic as it were. Nothing in this doc. is about enormous boats and two of every animal so chill and watch the science. Honestly you and you fellows on this site attack anything that so much as mentions a religious connotation and refute even the strongest evidence presented because it does not sit well with your ideologies. Seems familiar....lets ask Galileo. You become that which you hate in both action and attitude.

  8. Reasons Voice

    PS. If global flooding is not even a remote threat Why worry about the melting ice-caps? By your reasoning Global warmings worst effect would be more beach days.

  9. capricious

    "Whereas an actual flood on a GLOBAL scale has been scientifically proven to have happened. "

    Excuse me, this is a no bullshit zone. Wake up and stop being a child about science. That statement is completely false and if you don't know that, I truly pity you.

    "Plus, how do you account for all the lost civilizations that are being found under water?"

    First, *ALL OF THE* ? Excuse me?! We've found a handful at BEST. Second, we account for these by understanding PLATE TECTONICS. The earth is recycling its surface and the geography of our planet changes. This includes raising and lowering of land in massive amounts over time.

    We all encourage everyone to play in our sandbox of knowledge here on TDF, but please, don't throw sand in our eyes with absolutely fallacious statements.

  10. breadthing

    @ colin, flood myths are common because floods are common; the commonness of the myth in no way implies a global flood. The fact that civilizations are found underwater isn't evidence either. it could be from receding glaciers due to natural climate changes. If they had found a civilization in the himalaya mountains that showed evidence of being trapped underwater then maybe you would have a case. A global flood has never been proven, even the thought is enough to make any legitimate geologist laugh. By the way, do you even know what the Horizon project is about? its a bunch of young earth creationists and "i.d.ers" trying to validate bronze age myths with pseudoscience. leprechauns, talking snakes, santa, your deity indeed!

  11. breadthing

    by the way, where did all that water come from to flood the earth? and where did it go? and don't tell me anything about a vapor canopy, its been debunked over and over for decades now.

  12. Keith


    really? you're going to turn this into a science versus religion thing preemptively? What on earth leads you to believe this has anything to do with intelligent design? The geologists themselves stated early on that they were not in any way interested in pursuing science based on what they called...myth...legend...the same words frequently used to disparage religious belief. Did you even watch the documentary? Because someone is looking at Gilgamesh and the Bible as stories that may reflect some actual events around the time they were written is a far far cry from the silliness that is Biblical literalism and young earth creationism. Save your disgust for somewhere it makes more sense.

  13. Keith

    @ Shelby
    @ Breadthing
    @ Colin

    It's clear that NONE of you actually watched any of this. There is not one single mention of a global flood in this doc. They are talking about a dramatic change in one region when the Mediterranean flooded what is now the Black Sea with salt water - over thirty years, not forty days. This documentary has nothing to do with religious clap-trap. It doesn't seek to prove anything in the bible, it merely suggests that there was an event that may suggest a relationship between the Biblical narrative and the epic of mention of God, Noah, global flood, Israelites, etc. etc. etc. You guys are just so full of piss and vinegar you can't wait to find something to fight about. I enjoy myself on these boards, but God, the militant atheism or anti-theism or anti-religious sentiment gets so incredibly silly and self incriminating after a while.

    Shelby you can save yourself the effort in being "above it" and Colin you can save your energy defending it, because neither of you are responding to anything the doc is actually about.

  14. Keith

    @ Breadthing

    Finally, I believe this is a BBC Horizon documentary, not to be confused with "The Horizon Project." And it looks to me like the Horizon Project (which this has nothing to do with) is not at all, "a bunch of young earth creationists and “i.d.ers” trying to validate bronze age myths with pseudoscience. leprechauns, talking snakes, santa" it's new age 2012ers like Michael Tsarion who have all manner of esoteric alternative history ideas which would be anathema to established science and young earth creationists alike. If you're going to pick a fight at least know what you're going after.

  15. Shelby Sherman

    You may very well be correct, but they could have used a less provocative title. What was I supposed to think?

  16. Keith

    @ Shelby, fair enough. You're probably right about the title. It in fact had very little to do with the documentary, other than it being a peripheral myth-meets-possible-reality curiosity.

  17. Shelby Sherman

    Thanks, and I feel justified in not watching the thing based on the title and synopsis. As you know, there are some great, scientific docs at this site and there is also some amateurish pseudo-science. I just didn't want to waste my time watching another, "Oh, we've found the Ark, praise god" type video.

  18. Keith

    capricious - "here on TDF we..." This is a site for documentaries, and it would follow the discussions should have something to do with them. Watch the damn thing please, before you spout off. This is not a mockumentary and most importantly it IS NOT about a global flood theory. For crying out loud people. You are so trigger happy to attack you don't even know what the context is and the guns are drawn.

  19. Keith

    @ Groan,

    I couldn't agree more. In fact I have voiced the same complaint before specifically using the Galileo reference. Great minds think alike! you - me, Renaissance popes - TDF atheist reactionaries.

  20. Shelby Sherman

    @Keith What are you "I couldn’t agree more" about? "The anti-religion atheist crybabies", or the "Not a remote possibility that it happened, so why worry"? Regarding especially the latter, the problem is not that it couldn't happen, it is that millions of people believe that it DID happen. This is the source of frustration and outrage.

  21. Keith

    @ Shelby

    to clarify - what I agreed with was, "Honestly you and you fellows on this site attack anything that so much as mentions a religious connotation and refute even the strongest evidence presented because it does not sit well with your ideologies. Seems familiar….lets ask Galileo. You become that which you hate in both action and attitude."

    My issue is that the frustration and outrage is outsized and misplaced so much of the time. You leap before you look. You attack before you listen. You assume before you ask. We are human beings that have to figure out how to co-exist here, and fundamentalist biblical literalists are not helping in that endeavor and neither are rabid anti-religionists. I would just love to see a discussion on here wherein someone would begin by asking someone else genuinely to share why they think such and such or believe such and such instead of assuming via a computer screen, that you have one iota of understanding or insight into what informs the comment. Sure sometimes the comments are just simply silly and I don't care if they are called out as such, but to parachute into a forum, not bother to watch the documentary and just open up a clip on a group of people - who are so diverse yet you make them some monolothic deadweight of ignorance and stupidity.

    The world, it's people, and it's belief systems (and like it or not you have one too) are way too complex for you to sum them up and talk AT people as if they are representative of some homogenous mass.

    I get the outrage, and in many ways I agree with whats behind it, but my point is that lashing out recklessly is pointless, fruitless, and no better for you than it is for the ones you lash out at.

  22. Colin

    For all of you's who think a flood on a global scale cannot happen, I would just like to point out that, the tsunami that hit Indonesia and India a few years back. This was a tiddler of a wave, no more than 1 metre high. But look at the devistation it wrought.
    Yes I do know that the flood in this docu was pertaining to the land round the Middle East and the Mediterrean and how a lake burst its banks and poured countless millions of gallons of fresh water into these parts. And from this you could ascertain the Noah myth. There is a village or minor city lying under the Red sea to justify the claim of that flood. Also the flood in question is part of the ancient Sumarians legend.
    I also know that plate tectonics help and assist in distributing this water, a bit like creating and dismantling dams. They also assist in new land masses appearring and disappearring and cultures and civilisations just vanishing off the face of the Earth.
    But come on people, this does happen all the time. What doesn't happen all the time is a truley global flood. There is evidence from the Rockie Mountains to Australia. These geologists that claim the evidence is there in the rocks, can't all be wrong.

  23. Shelby Sherman

    @Keith. Loud and clear, Keith. O.K., I'll let you address Colin in the message above this one. It makes my eyes burn.

  24. Colin

    Watch out Shelby, you might start a flood. haha

  25. Insomniac

    To anyone who might say a "global flood"(flooding of most of the KNOWN world by one specific people at one specific time, not of the entire actual world), are you implying that either there was no ice age or that water can somehow create itself out of nothing and vanish a few thousand years later? If not plz explain.

  26. Insomniac

    Note: To anyone who might say its impossible...missed the last part of my sentence there >.>

  27. Insomniac

    BTW I am one of those "rabid anti-religionists". Denying facts because they line up with some religious stories in some way is absurd. The fact that one tiny lil part of the bible might have a small shred of reality in it doesn't prove anything about the rest of it.

  28. webster

    To whom it may concern:

    Although it often makes for lively debate and entertaining reading the "militant atheist" attacks are getting as tiresome as the the self-righteous religious crowd spouting bronze age myth and trying to pass it off as scientific proof (several docs, not just this one). Im all for an intelligent debate but lets at least WATCH THE DAMN VIDEO FIRST so we can have an informed opinion first, rather than just flaming those with opposing views.

    Regarding the idea behind the video:

    The Black Sea flood has been proven but also fits the same time-line of the end of the last Ice Age. Then as now most people lived on the coast. When the ice melted, over time it raised world wide ocean levels well over 100 feet. Sometimes quite quickly as when the meltwater lake in central Canada broke through the ice damn and entered the Hudsons bay about 12000 years ago. Communities all over the world were flooded, and are now being found offshore by scuba etc.
    Essentially a world wide flood.

    example of a non-flame based, informed opinion post - thank you

    p.s. Vlatko , absolutely the best site on the web

  29. Ron

    What is it about enabling people to post comments on-line such that it quickly turns into mud slinging? I see this behaviour on all kinds of sites.

    I'm guessing it's not how these people tend behave in public. Perhaps the anonymity?


  30. Ron

    Oh, I should add I thought it was a good documentary. Thanks :)

  31. matt

    hold on, folks. can anyone please just tell me what this thing is about? is it about a global flood? the description above only mentions the black sea as the possible location of this flood or did i miss something?

    what's the deal?

  32. Prix

    The Noah's ark was written after Gilgamesh flood. Though Christians consider Gilgamesh a "myth" while Noah's Ark was real for them. Well, Noah's Ark resembles Gilgamesh flood A LOT!

    There are several myths that are probably older than even Gilgamesh flood.

    Also, too bad Gilgamesh flood didn't have copyright. They could sue the Church's and get all the money and help the poor. Instead of building a huge Church in the middle of a poor places.

  33. Shelby Sherman

    @Webster. My, aren't we the cat's meow. May I kiss your ring?

  34. Colin

    @Shelby, I hope that wasn't sexual? ha-ha.
    But seriously Shelby, the evidence is out there, you have the Net at your fingertips. Why don't you use it, instead of being condescending when someone has actually done their homework.

  35. Shelby Sherman

    Colin, anyone who believes that a global flood,as described in Genesis, actually happened, is in serious need of an education.

  36. mike

    Oh lets stop pithering at one another. I am sure it's worth a good laugh. There's got to be some creationist propaganda popping up somewhere in the film.

  37. Denounce

    1. the fact that not one person has bothered to answer the childish comments in this thread is an answer in its own right, watch it, then comment.

    2. this Doc was actually well founded, not once was it insinuated to be noahs flood, more so towards the epic of gilgamesh,and the science was even more so founded, if any of you had taken the time to watch you'd know that the doc is all about the flooding of a land basin, nothing more, period.

    3. Excellent documentary, i hope that people arent turned away from it by the immature agnostic propaganda above.

  38. Vilewoman

    Shelby, many have tried to point out to you that this doc has nothing to do with the bible or Genesis, no praise God, no Hark, we have found the Ark!
    Your first comment proves you did not bother to read the documentary's description. If you had, you would have known this has little to do with the global flood in Genesis but with the Black Sea.

    I will type that even though I believe Genesis Flood Myth to be untrue, there are many flood stories from around the world at the end of the last Ice Age because well, to be simple about it, there was a lot of ice and it melted. (This of course happened over hundreds of years, not 40 days) Since science teaches us the mass of anything cannot be changed and if you are curious about this kind of phenomenon there is a simple experiment you can do. Take a large pot and fill it with water. Put the pot in a freezer until the water becomes ice. Remove ice from freezer and let it melt back into water. Then pour the water from the pot into a sink 3/4 full of water. I am sure will your floor flooded.

  39. Shelby Sherman

    Denounce said: "not once was it insinuated to be noahs flood,"

    I explained in an earlier message why I did not choose to watch this. The title is very deceiving, if indeed this film clip was not promoting the Biblical myth. First impressions are everything, and I did not care to watch another "We found the real ark, No REALLY, we did" type of rubbish.

  40. Denounce

    "first impressions are everything"- Shelby

    While important, are they everything, no.
    they made you click on the link to which you saw and promptly ignored the 5 paragraph description.

    Frankly im amazed you could come to this page 9 times to comment now, argue a completely biased and unfounded arguement regaurding a completely non important documentary, and STILL have not read the description to which you argue on about.

    Title is a title
    Description is a decription
    and a fool is a fool

  41. Karen

    If the earth axis slipps again water will displace in every part of the world. Hense a global flood.

  42. Shelby Sherman

    @Denounce I want to make sure that I understand your ad hominem properly. I have consistently criticized two things, the title of this "documentary" and the Biblical myth. If you are going to raise an objection to my criticism, the Judge is going to tell you that "you opened the door to this line of questioning". I am under no obligation to watch this work and I am not restricted from commenting on its title or its insinuations. You have no evidence that I did not read the introduction, as a matter of fact, I did. Since we are using absolutes, the title is misleading, period.

    Now, continue on with another sanctimonious message and I will again be glad to respond, but will not stoop to your puerile level.

  43. IBAN


  44. IO


  45. Shelby Sherman

    @IO. Absolutely not. No, not even with dinner and a movie first.

  46. Prix

    What IO wrote with google translator:

    There was never a flood, only grew SEA LEVEL, AND AS A TORRENT THAT COULD HAPPEN (IN THE BLACK SEA), produced more energy than all nuclear power plants EARTH (thunder, lightning, WATER FOR ALL SITES) FOR THOSE WHO LIVED IT must have been a FLOOD. Do not you think?

    How about you write in English next time?

  47. Achems Razor

    What? a war in progress and I was not invited?

    Will watch the doc, and then probably comment... or not.

  48. Denounce


    There is no need for more sanctimonious messages, and although i am glad to see the use of a dictionary in the secular community, ive made my point.


  49. Canadian

    This is actually a great doc and in every way against the literal interpretation of the bible. It say the Noah's flood story originates from a local flood in the Mediterranean. Even states in that doc point blank there is no global flood.

    There is no point in talking about evidence with creationist, especially young earth creationist. You have to make a serious effort to ignore and misinterpret evidence to believe the world is 6000 years old. A global flood, although ridiculous, makes a lot more sense than human living with dinosaurs and 3000 year fossils of dinosaurs. These people don't know what evidence means. Shelby, you made your point. I am glad you made the point so i don't have to. We can't save the i***** of the world. all we can do is be heard.

  50. QueenBee

    @Shelby: The title is meant to draw people in. It's called 'marketing'. The goal is to get people interested enough to (ahem) watch the offering.

    Obviously they failed with you, but then there's an irreducible percentage of the population resistant to Muzak, as well.

  51. Lori George Alexander

    This was an excellent film showing the way good science is done by two very remarkable scientists. It is also a good illustration at the same time that scientists are emotional human beings as illustrated by the anthropologists and archaeologists who can't believe they got scooped by some geologists.

    As for the Bible and other religious writings, often it is based in part on real events. Why else would time and energy by spent by our ancestors to record such things as a flood? So, they gave it a religious meaning. So what? What other model did they have to draw from?

    I think we need to calm down before we post.

  52. Keith

    @Lori, good point. The anger and emotion coming from the supposed rational and materialist perspective is often hilariously out of balance, causing oversights like that.

    @ Canadian, exactly the point I was trying to make earlier amid the fangs-out religion-is-satan tirades that get tiresome and oh so free of careful thought on these forums. This documentary (poorly chosen title or no) has nothing to do with the bible other than looking at it for circumstantial evidence of some kind of event that likely would have been reflected on in some way by people who experienced it.

    Finally, just want to say, though I've said a thousand times before - it is in fact possible to have sincere spiritual beliefs (even within a religious albeit non-fundamentalist context) and to also not just accept science but embrace it and enjoy it and accept its conclusions. No good scientist has any interest in dis-proving God, just in learning more and understanding more. For those of us who believe and aren't biblical literalists, the two worlds actually create a great deal of harmony. You can drum up the war between science and religion all you want - and I'll grant you that it actually does exist in a practical sense where school boards are being besieged by fundamentalists - but you can't apply that extremity everywhere with everyone. I'm getting really bored of it being applied to me.

  53. Keith

    Funny story - I am passionate about harmonizing real science and my faith - and I was recently asked to speak at a small gathering, sharing some reflections. I went pretty deep into the unfolding revelation of the cosmos that evolved by virtue of "heretics" who pushed the envelope so that we gradually shifted from earth being the center to earth being one of 9 orbiting bodies - and then that moment when we glimpsed another galaxy beyond our own on Mount Wilson - anyway I was using the image to talk about humility - how the more we are willing to accept our non-centrality in everything (you atheists love to talk about this too!), and step back...the more beautiful and awe-inspiring the picture gets.

    People seemed to appreciate it in general. However one kind woman approached me afterward, and clearly she could tell I was the sort of person who mixes Charles Darwin with my Martin Luther and she offered a friendly suggestion. She told me all about this amazing "museum" in Ohio where Christians who "love science" can learn so much...about how the stars formed in a few thousand years, and about how people lived with dinosaurs, etc. etc. I thanked her and said I did indeed want to see it sometime (which is true) and that I had, in fact, heard of those theories.

    So there are in fact young earth creationists out there who are painfully in the dark and willingly so. But, there are also lots of us who humbly accept all good science and its implications without the need to feel threatened or invent alternate "science." Please keep this in mind when you launch a blind assault on a message board. Thanks.

  54. Keith


    Thank you thank you! Well said. I could not have said it better myself. Wow, a voice of reason! I hope you continue to weigh in on these discussions.

  55. ez2b12

    @ Kieth

    Basically what you have done is to redefine belief in God and then call yourself religiouse. Don't feel bad a lot of theist are doing it now days. It is that time you see, let me explain. I have a degree in theology and have spent the last five years putting together a collection of essays that i hope to turn into a book. They explain how at many points through out history man had to redefine god to fit with his new knowledge of the universe. The most easily recognized of these times was when the people of Europe uncovered the works of the ancient Greeks. The Moores had preserved them in Spain which had just been reclaimed. It sparked the renaissance and many believe it led to Martin Luther's revelations- the timing is questionable here though seeing that the reformation started in 1510. As man learns more he is confronted with either revising his religion or recognizing it to be what it really is- a construct of mans fears and need to seperate himself from moratality and thus nature. The process of natural selection tends to have this effect on those able to concieve of both tommorrow and the value of self. If you guys redefine it much more poor old god will lose what little significance he has left. I mean you have already taken the creation of the earth and man, is the virgin birth still in? Or is that out now? Don't worry I'm not complaining- I've had some good meals in caffeterias. By the way if you want to come off as non biased try not saying "You athiests" like we are an inferior strain of the virus that is human beings. We are just as screwed up and potent as any believer trust me.
    Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a small vibration- that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. Their is no death, life is just a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves. Now, heres Tom with the weather.

  56. Reasons Voice

    @ Keith Thank you for you compliment. I don't strive in any way for praise only to be heard. Both science and Spirituality have a lot to offer people and when they are at odds we as a whole loose. A man with no brain or a man with no heart is not a complete man. I have spoken on many of these posts under different names. Just haven't found one I like yet. You could probably recognise them by the horrid spelling haha. thanks again

  57. Moli

    What I took from the documentary is they proved that there was a flood in the Mid-East area. As we all know ancient people blamed all natural occurrences on acts of god/gods. We must also remember that the whole world was their area. With oral stories getting passed down and added embellishments(stolen stories as well), we get the Noah story. What this doc has proven to ME is there was a real event that was turned into a religious story. BTW, this doc not once mentioned a GLOBAL flood

  58. Keith


    Thanks for once again articulating for me what I believe, or in this case, how I arrived at my beliefs and where they fit in a historical context. I'm happy to hear you have a degree in theology, though given your current perspective sounds like it may have been wasted time or money since you scorn the concept of religious belief. Did you pursue a degree out of spite or did you pursue the degree an then have a post-modern revelation?

    In any case, I don't feel I need to defend my un-orthodox Christianity while still considering myself - however peripheral - part of the big picture. Your quick breakdown of Christian history and how wishy washy theists like myself are part of grand tradition of intellectual weaklings is reflects an incomplete and inaccurate understanding. Much of what I believe, and much of what informs my evolving beliefs comes from very ancient Christianity, not post-modern shallow psuedo-thinkers seeking to revise doctrines just for conciliatory purposes. I see a great deal of light and truth in the writings of people like Eriugena. What you seem to characterize as theism veiled as liberal christianity is actually something very old and has been woven into our tradition for millennia, whether or not many have been sidelined as heretics for it along the way. But it is not some convenient and weak-minded modern permutation along our way to Darwinian extinction. Maybe you need to audit a few more courses.

    For me it will always come back to experience, and these are not things I have any interest in quantifying or holding up for your ridicule or anyone else's. They are what they are, and they are certainly subjective, which is why I have no desire to foist them on someone else. I can't help but feel like the attempt to separate me from fundamentalists and somehow render my opinions irrelevant serves one primary purpose - makes your arguments much simpler and easier to win. You seem to be suggesting: I don't want to have a discussion with the likes of you, and I want to keep using my precious over-generalizations, but for them to be applicable I need you step aside so you don't throw off my statistics. Sorry. Still here. Still making things complicated and not as reducible as we'd all like. Such is life, such is science, such is the numinous too.

    When you use the devices of dialogue and debate of painting someone into the corner by insinuating you know more than they do about themselves, be sure you truly do know more.

    and as to the sentence in which I said "you atheists" that was meant to be lighthearted and in jest. I was genuinely pointing out an interesting area of common ground. If you took it as mean-spirited I apologize and can only plead the limitations of such a cold and limited mode that we're working in here on an online forum.

  59. athiest

    this is a prime example of why religious people should not be allowed to investigate things like science n history, they have just doctored the info to fit there myths of there religion, the flood happened well before they say a few million years ago, f@#$%^& b@##$%^& man, just look when the ice melted n it will give u the date, this s@#$ is pure religious propaganda.

  60. smashthestate

    Wow, quite a heated debate. I have read that silt testing shows a probability for a regional flood in mid east during pre biblical times. Worse than New Orleans or India, but regional nonetheless. Generations of oral tradition turned the event into mtyh and post writing generations eventually gave us the biblical epic we know today.There are many earlier verions of flood myth; bible story an abridged version with a Jewish spin. We get big floods today, they had them back then too, but for pre industrial cultures huge floods likely seemed apocolyptic in their devistation. Do some research, chech out the silt testing / geology stuff. My favorite flood story is in Gilgamesh.

  61. Kara Kittle


    If you don't want to watch it, don't watch it then.

    This was a very interesting documentary. The men proved unequivocally that something happened to the Earth and flooded different parts of it.They used the Epic of Gilgamesh as a sounding board for most of this documentary. What amazes me is that in every culture on the face of the planet, there is a flood myth and most of these people in ancient cultures were cut off from each other for thousands and thousands of years.

    Even the ancient Polynesians along with Native Americans have their own versions of creation and flood stories. What was really interesting was the Mediterranean mollusks found in the sediment layer of the Black Sea. How does something like that happen? How is it, people have found deep ocean mollusks on top of the Appalachian Mountains? Things to ponder, indeed.

    BTW, the myths of Leprechauns were transformed over time. The real leprechauns were actually descendants of the Tuatha De Danaan, or the Children of Danu in ancient Ireland. They were the predecessors of the Celtic Druids. And they can be found in the Ulster Cycles, the stories of ancient Celtic warriors.

    There is a real history of the world.People want science to prove it, but they don't want to hear when it science supports mythology. They embrace it when the same scientists with the same exact data interpret it in the narrow viewfinder of atheism.

  62. Kara Kittle

    The museum is in Northern Kentucky. It is called the Creation Science Museum. You can get to it from I-275 about 30 miles southwest of Cincinnati. I have been there, it is very nice.

  63. ReligionIsntAllBad

    <3333 at the Bill Hicks quote ... god knows how I miss Bill :(

    Anyone looking for proof of god's miracle beyond the fact that billion year old stardust is currently creating this internet comment ... has possibly completely missed the point :) Just as this documentary does.

    The miracle is that we are alive and aware of anything happening at all :D As Dogen would say, the miracle is gathering water and chopping firewood :)

    We as a people need to move past our religious bigotry ... sure some religious beliefs are obviously false (eg. people rising from the dead in the literal sense, and women conceiving children without being impregnated). And yet some religions are not entirely devoid of truths that are useful to us, even in this rational age.

  64. jack1952

    The melting of the glaciers at the end of the last ice age would have made our own global warming scenarios look like a picnic. If modern global warming will raise ocean levels drastically, how much more so would it have done then. The reaction of the people living at that time would have been one of astonishment and fear. For those who lived close to the sea, their world was changing, catastrophically. The idea of a global world would have been alien to them but the world they knew was under flood. People had to move or drown. It is no wonder myths grew about this terrible time in their history. These myths changed over time and took on religious connotations. Then when people began to write things down it was inevitable that this important event was also recorded. Just because the story of Noah isn't true doesn't mean they weren't remembering a time when the sea levels inexplicably rose in a very dramatic way. People of those times were superstitious but they weren't stupid. They were only trying to explain events the best way they could with the knowledge they had.
    The story of Jesus being untrue does not mean there was no Roman Empire; but it does give insight into the political unrest of those times. Noah's story should be seen in the light.

  65. jack1952

    Noah's story should be seen in the same light.

  66. toddy

    @ those who didn't watch it because of the Title shame on you . Haven't you heard the saying don't judge a book by its cover or in this case Don't judge a documentary by its title! If you watched it it would have shown they they are taken a story shared by many cultures and shedding some light as to the true origins of it. If you want to exalt or berate something you need to cover your A** and by watching something you can, because it gives you something to base your opinion on and to work with. As the old saying goes know how your enemy thinks. Also, It has been speculated that if all the worlds ice cover where to melt it would be a world wide flooding event.

  67. cbig1969

    You people who place so much confidence in science but aren't actual scientists are just as ignorant as those who believe in God but don't study his word.

  68. Lord_Kral

    Gotta love the reggae music :) The Black Sea Deluge Theory is definitely compelling and, if we agree with the timeframe of the purported event, certainly exactly the kind of event that would account for a 'great flood' mythology that could carry through the ages...

    I hope they find more evidence to substantiate their claims.

  69. leoncariveau

    Myth & fact are always intertwined. The question should always be to what degree. It's been my experience that most of todays sceintist have been indoctrinated to dismiss this FACT errorniously. To the extent that it cripples the advancement of human knowlege. What a shame:-(

  70. tonyzepp

    Good call on Athiest

  71. tonyzepp

    Science and religion and do frequently coexist

  72. a_no_n

    Indeed it has...Christians used scientists as a fuel source for hundreds of years.
    Scientists burn much longer than books...much warmer.

  73. a_no_n

    If by indoctrination you mean given a dictionary and told what FACT actually means, then yes.

  74. a_no_n

    like all the stuff about how crop rotation is a sin?
    And that a Bat is a type of Bird?

  75. Kahina

    This doc wasn't about proving that a global flood occured. The scientists merely set out trying to understand if there was a SCIENTIFIC reason for civilizations coming up with global flooding MYTHS. To a hunter-gatherer of that time, their region WAS THE ENTIRE WORLD thus the exaggerated narratives of flood myths. There was nothing pro-religous about this doc at all.

  76. a_no_n

    A scientist in a broad sense is one engaging in a systematic activity to acquire knowledge. In a more restricted sense, a scientist is an individual who uses the scientific method

    The Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge.

    Science is the polar opposite of ignorance.

  77. David

    God and a scientist were having a discussion and the scientist was saying " you see with all our expanding knowledge we won't even need you in a few more generations why with all our work in DNA and cloning we will even be able to make people before very long."
    At this the good lord, who had been nearly napping, perked up and said, "Really? Let's have a good old fashioned man-making contest, whoever does the best, wins."
    The scientist rubbed his chin a moment and then said, "All right, just let me get back to my lab."
    "One thing," said God, "We're doing it the way I originally did it, with a lump of clay."
    "Challenge accepted," declared the scientist and bent over to scoop up a handful of earth.
    "Uh, uh, uh," God wagged a finger at him, "Get your own dirt."

    The longer I live and study the smaller the contradiction between religion and science. The farther back the timeline is pushed, the greater the glory of God. The more we understand quantum physics the more the mystery of creation. The Bible tells us what God did, it's not so clear on the details of how. Science tells us how he may have done it, it's not so clear on why.

  78. Epicurus

    where did god get the clay or dirt from? i dont get this. its sophomoric.

  79. Mantid

    I think it was play-doh, and play-doh is made in china.
    (I'm sure it's made in a lot of other places as well)

  80. Mantid

    You aren't god.

  81. Xbow

    You used the word God, the term God implies an all powerful creator. By using that term you have answered your own question. 'God' created it from nothing (how convenient).

    I myself do not believe in the absurdity of an interventionist God. If there is a creator he would more than likely be quite uninterested in the minor events on one of the billions of worlds that he/she/it created.

  82. Epicurus

    so the idea is that god just creates whatever he imagines out of nothing?

    see thats where i get confused. how come all the rules and restrictions? seems pointless and frivolous. why go through all those steps of elements and chemistry?

  83. nate_171

    well if you know anything about the big bang this whole universe started from nothing so why not ask the same questions about science.... F a sheep will always be a sheep even with a new Shepard leading the way to the slaughter

  84. Brady Kohuth

    In Arizona,we have the Mogollon Rim,which is an upheaval of land that runs from near Flagstaff into New Mexico and the elevations are up to and over 8000ft. I have found sea shells at an elevation of 7500ft. So,their was a flood,whether it covered the entire earth or just a certain area,but again their was a flood.Even the Navajo tribe believe it and have it in their "bible".

  85. Michael Wierson

    Noah's flood was worldwide. Who makes this stuff up?

  86. Darren Malin

    utter rubbish there is no such thing as god.

  87. michael ludwig

    Right idea, all the historical locations match,but forgot to mention that the area was important for the production of salt, and that the opening to the black sea may have been man made,perhaps causing the flood,as the water ate a larger and larger channel until it was unstoppable,according the the oldest written records.

  88. Luke Tiehen

    just like a fish denying the existence of water

  89. Peter Lesperance

    For anyone who actually believe Noah's flood was global I got news for you unless the flood happened 110,000 to 250,000 years ago its impossible The Greenland Ice sheet provides the evidence needed to falsify the hypothesis of a world flood this is not to say the story is false, it means everyone has misunderstood it.

    I am not a believer my self but the story of the flood seems plausible but only if it was a local flood.There are many civilizations that report a flood story this leads me to believe that the flood is real, just not global.

    Since the unknown authors of the bible did not know the earth was round Noah or Gilgamesh which ever you prefer (I believe Noah's story is actually Gilgamesh's) but neither of them would have known.
    So when the authors heard this story and wrote the world they meant their world their island.They meant the animals of one island.This scenario is the only plausible one that can be true.If you would like to read a report by a theologian on how the Greenland ice sheet falsifys a global flood. I suggest you google Paul h Seely Noahs flood ultimate proof it was not global your looking for a pdf called The GISP2 Ice core ultimate proof Noah's flood was not global.

  90. Peter Lesperance

    Isn't it more likely that birds carried the shells there or that particular mountain was once flat and under water and then as earth pushed together it pushed the once flat surface into a mountain?

    If the flood happened it happened in the middle east not America or Canada for that matter think about it the authors of the bible thought the earth was flat they had no idea our continent even existed so their world flooded look up how mountains are formed their is a better explanation to how seashells get up mountains then to a flood that happened somewhere in the middle east.
    GreenLand if you didn't see my new post is ultimate proof that the flood was not global.

  91. Peter Lesperance

    Except the evidence against a world flood is irrefutable.There is no evidence of such an event and any that some might say exist has other natural explanations.You may ask How I can be so confident in that I have studied this for a long time I have read the GRIP charts and the GISP2 charts and I have read reports done by theologians that are trusted not knuckle heads like Kent Hovind. The easiest paper for most to read and understand and get sources is a paper done by Peter H Seely I posted this up above as well but if you want to read it google His name with Ultimate proof Noah's flood was not global you will find a pdf it has all the evidence one person needs to know that it could not have been global

  92. Peter Lesperance

    That's not true We can place confidence in Science because we understand the scientific method. We know that getting a paper published is scrutinized by other scientist and if one thing is wrong and it cant be duplicated it stays as a hypothesis.We also know when something becomes a scientific theory that it went through a lot of loops to be called that. we also know that the information is their for all to read and study and we can follow the steps and see it for ourselves science can be duplicated and observed.

    As for Faith or belief in god it is not testable it can't be shown it can't be studied you have to choose a god out of the hundreds of gods and hope you pick the right god then you have to believe in this god on blind faith.
    So no we are not ignorant at all.

  93. Charlie Gutierrez

    um, the authors of the bible did not think the earth was flat. Isaiah 40:22 says:"There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell". so in reality these people knew the earth was round way before science.

  94. Rose

    Of course all in the Bible is true. The flood happened and God wrote the Bible . He promised never to flood the Earth again.

  95. Rose

    You are so wrong my friend. You can believe what you like. But one day you will have to rethink it.

  96. Rose

    God The Father The SON and the HOLY SPIRIT created the Earth our Earth one Earth. You are wrong! HE IS interested in us.

  97. Rose

    There is no geological explanation to this. It is God. All God.

  98. over the edge

    o have a couple of questions for you. if this worldwide flood happened as claimed in the bible please answer these.
    -where did all the water come from and where is it now?
    - how did the plants survive
    - how did the animals in the water survive the rapid changes in temp and salt concentration
    - how did such a small "ark" and crew hold, gather,feed. look after, and provide the adequate environment for all the animals
    - what did the meat eaters eat immediately following the flood as every meal would make a species extinct.
    - at such an altitude why did everything not freeze of suffocate

    these are just a few of many questions that need to be answered before a person can be taken even remotely seriously concerning this mythical event

  99. coryn

    You must be joking! You're telling me a 'God', an omnipotent almighty God created something as ridiculous as this world? Where creatures have to eat each other, often alive, just to stay alive themselves. Why would anything 'perfect', such as a 'god', create anything as imperfect as our universe? You're not aware perhaps that 90% or better of the species 'God' created are now extinct. Your 'God' needs to show up and explain itself......

  100. CapnCanard

    Yes. Noah and God had nothing to do with this. And I would suggest that these local floods were part of the thawing following the last ice age. In America we have good evidence of floods from Glacial Lake Missoula, Glacial Lake Agassiz, and then Lake Winnipeg, the Finger Lakes, and the Great Lakes left afterwards, among far too many others. The Black Sea flood is very impressive. But the Biblical story that the cause was too much rain is ridiculous, and very difficult to believe when we had world wide melting of massive glacial sheets of ice. That water has to take up space somewhere

  101. CapnCanard

    Sure. There are other ways to explain it all without the need of even a flood. There is an alternative idea of the Growing Earth Theory first proposed over 100+ years ago.. It is attractive but it hasn't caught on with most geologists yet. However, there is a short youtube video that gives a brief demonstration of may have transpired. Just search Youtube "Growing Earth".

    Put together by Neal Adams. It's interesting...

  102. Guest

    Do you not understand how mountains form? Have you given any thought about birds and other animals? 7500 ft is nothing you do know that deserts where once oceans and that some mountains where underwater at some point you do know that the earth today is not the same as yesterday right? There was no biblical world wide flood and if the bibles flood is a real local one it certainly didn't happen in New Mexico.

  103. Guest

    Yes they did Disregarding the dome, the essential flatness of the earth's surface is required by verses like
    Daniel 4:10-11. In Daniel, the king “saw a tree of great height at the center of the
    earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds.” If the earth
    were flat, a sufficiently tall tree would be visible to “the earth's farthest
    bounds,” but this is impossible on a spherical earth. Likewise, in describing the temptation of
    Jesus by Satan, Matthew 4:8 says, “Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain,
    and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory.”
    Obviously, this would be possible only if the earth were flat. The same is true of Revelation
    1:7: “Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him...”
    Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm

    Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable
    The immovable earth is only possible on a flat spherical earth but then there are the saying the 4 corners of earth which are only possible on a square flat earth but no matter how you try and say it they thought earth was flat.

  104. Kool Breeze

    What is nothing? Where did you hear that the BBT says it started from nothing? I have only heard this from creationists and not from people who accept the BBT.

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