In God We Trust?

2012 ,    » 324 Comments

In God We Trust?From the author: When I was given a DVD of a protest rally in the small town of King, near where I live, I was shocked by the sight of five thousand people waving Christian Flags and cheering one of the speakers when he said that everyone there should "encourage" those who weren't Christian in the area to move somewhere else.

My first reaction was anger and I told my wife, Susan, we were going to put our house up for sale the next day and move somewhere more tolerant. But the next morning, I decided that I would do something else first. I took my video camera down to the Veteran's Memorial in King's Public Park and started interviewing people.

I learned that the rally had been ignited by a returning Afghanistan Veteran who threatened to sue the town if they didn't remove the Christian Flag from the public Veteran's Memorial.

I was surprised that most residents believed that Separation of Church and State is a myth and that the Founders intended this to be an officially Christian Nation. They quoted so many historical facts from a man named David Barton to back up their claims, that I really wondered if what I'd taken for granted might be incorrect.

And thus began a year-and-a-half journey in my spare time to find out the truth and source of the idea of Separation of Church and State, as well as interviews with half a dozen different religious groups in the area about what and why they believed what they do. The story quickly became as much about what we believe about God as what we believe about the Founders of the United States -- and how we evaluate truth itself.

This was just me with a camera on my own, so it is definitely not a professionally produced documentary, but I hope some will find it as interesting a subject and as much an education as I did in making it.

Watch the full documentary now

Ratings: 8.55/10 from 40 users.

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324 Comments / User Reviews

  1. dmxi

    people are in a dire need to pin down the real problems,which is a hard task due to information overkill.when the task is to hard to comprehend,one picks an issue which is more comfortable with ones worldview & makes it easier to exclude others,who don't conform.

  2. dewflirt

    Kept half an eye on this as I worked, it stalled 15 mins from the end, did the christian flag fly? Very gentle film.

  3. Rolands

    Sooo funny :D. the 1:20 is just great for next couple of minutes. Religion, heh :) so great.

  4. Fecioru Florin

    Thank God for atheists.

  5. Bvkaos

    This is just another case of the new islamofobic trend we are seeing through the western world.... sad.

  6. Bvkaos

    Kind of like anti Semitism . watch out or they will surely come and poison our wells and kidnap our children.

  7. e_pluribus_unum_USA_Motto

    "The Unites States of America was in NO WAY founded as a Christian Nation." George Washington/John Adams - Treaty of Tripoli.

    You simply have to read the writings of our founders and presidents to see their beliefs - its available online from the Library of Congress.

    NOT Christian
    George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, Abraham Lincoln, Ulysses Grant. Our greatest founder (only signer of all founding docs) and greatest scientist - Benjamin Franklin. Thomas Paine.

    Some of our worst founders - John Jay for example - first Supreme court justice and Patrick Henry wanted LAWS that made it illegal for Catholics to ever hold public office. Theres a prime example of why separation of church and state are so important.

    When a Christian prays 20 out of of 25 words are "jesus".
    This word appears ZERO times in the Declaration of Independence and zero times in the Constitution - strange?. The word GOD appears zero times in Constitution. Go ahead read them.

    The Constitutions like the Bible - those who claim to be the experts have never read them.

    The so called Christians in this need to READ their "Good" Book. But if they actually did read it, in order from beginning to end - they would move on....
    Wow they show a christian lady actually reading the bible - clearly for the first time - Slavery part.22:00 min in. and she is a pastor - amazing!!!

  8. CapnCanard

    The real enemy is ignorance, and ignorance is also the god that the ignorant praise and worship. They roll in ignorance the way a pig will roll in the mud. In fact the ignorant are exceedingly proud of their ignorance and more than willing to show great pride in being ignorant. The only true solution is education. At some point, they may realize that they're in mud and say "for gods sake, why are we stuck in this mud? Why?" But that isn't gonna happen until they counter their ignorance with new information. I guess that is what they call enlightenment... boy, that's fancy sounding, eh?

    Good little doc...

  9. dewflirt

    Wish I'd written that, you could call it pignorance :)

  10. Corey W.

    More insane gibberish from the Christians, all this anti-Muslim, anti-anything not white christian. These "christians" need to be beaten to death with their bible cause they never ******* read it.

    Everything in the waters that has not fins and scales is detestable to you.
    -Leviticus 11:12
    These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat: whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you
    -Deuteronomy 14:9-10

    Long story short, if you eat shrimp your just as damned and just as detestable as the so hated "homosexuals".

    There is more in there about how wearing clothes made of more than 1 type of fabric makes u worse than a gay, but i dont remember that one off the top of my head.

    So enjoy your hypocritical beliefs christians, cause the biggest weapon against the ignorant, is education and more and more people wake up everyday.

  11. SFXkilla

    I think what bothers me most about christians and really any religion is that so many people who speak to you with absolute authority ie. pasters and priest and the like turn out to be ignorant fools that dont even know their own doctrine. They should take the time to understand the observable reality that mankind has uncovered. Mabbe they would find out the true nature of the everyday world they occupy space in and not have to make stuff up. Or at least come up with something less ridiculus But the real tragedy of the situation is that these people truly are good people. They could be doing great works for humanity instead of worshiping an invisible space daddy and getting all bent out of shape about eating the wrong meat on the wrong days or what ever it is that's getting them fired up these days.

  12. Pysmythe

    Yeah, that's right, and not acknowledged enough. If you ask someone who has done so, the most common reason given for a weakening of faith, or an outright "conversion" to agnosticism or atheism, is actually reading the bible, which was a little surprising to me to find out recently, since I didn't come by mine by that route and which I had assumed was less typical.

    So there's a comparison here that may be justified: The bible and Shakespeare are still the two most common collections you'll find in a Western home, but evidently these days it's just as hard to become, or remain, a Christian from reading the bible as it is to become a Poet from reading the sonnets.

    Not that very many bother to read either!

  13. Caroline Rowlands

    This really is the same sort of ignorance for which you accuse Christians. Christians are the new testament and your quotes are the old testament. You display ignorance and use it as a battering ram - just as ignorant christians or ignorant anybody does. The old testament is steeped in mans demands on god to give them laws, give them judges etc god gave them the message that they did not need such but they demanded it. So he gave them laws to teach them how they do not solve anything. I also want to make it clear that I am not supporting any man made god, or any religion at all ... just clarify something that you used to undermine a position and what you used is ironically falling into the self same trap you abhor.

  14. bbga

    If you choose to be an atheist/agnostic, etc., I respect that. BUT, don't try to rewrite history.

    I hear this from time to time..."the Founding Fathers were not Christian", or from the other side that they were Christian.

    They ALL had different religious beliefs/viewpoints, not one predominate over another. Some were Quaker, some Protestant, some agnostic. Some we just don't know for sure what they really thought.

    T. Jefferson was not a self proclaimed (largely) Christian - that is true. John Adams DID reference Christianity multiple times in his writings and the importance of Christian principles when writing to fellow drafters of the Constitution and we know FOR SURE that his son John Quincy was a Christian, because in his letters to his father he wrote about being "a Christian man".

    Although Abe Lincoln was not a member of a denomination, he DID say, "I have never refuted the Scriptures". And, if you read his most famous speeches and writings he OFTEN references the Bible, God, angels, etc.

    So, were America's Founding Fathers all Christians of the Evangelical 21st Century set - not very much. But, don't paint them with your own broad strokes of what you think they were.

  15. John

    bbga, while I appreciate your attempt to be even-handed here, there is plenty of verifiable historical evidence to demonstrate that many of the founding fathers were certainly not true believing Christians -- but, of course, some were. There are plenty of private documents and letters from founding fathers (in the archives) that plainly and clearly tells us what many of them thought about religion. Jefferson is the big one everyone talks about. In one of his letters to Adams, Jefferson states that "Christianity is the greatest abomination ever perpetrated upon humanity." In his reply Adams seems to be agreeing with him. They all gave lip service to Christianity -- just like politicians do today. Adams was an ordained minister, but only because he lived in a time when the only way to get a good formal education was to attend a seminary -- he said as much himself. And, while not a founding father, F.D. Roosevelt seemed never to miss a chance to invoke God in his speeches. But we know from personal papers and books written by insiders in his administration that Roosevelt thought Christianity, and all other religions, were foolish. And Christians will be shocked to learn that the US population is far more "Christian" (percentage wise) today than it was in the 1780's. I know it seems counter-intuitive, nonetheless it is true. But, of course, Christians are going to CHOOSE what they WANT to believe, regardless of the facts. There is plenty of easily obtainable verifiable historical evidence out there for anyone who gives a bother to actually do some legitimate, unbiased, critical research. Now I'll tell you something you will NEVER hear from a Christian: I don't want you to believe me. I don't want you to take my word for it. Please, do the research. See for yourself.

  16. John

    As a young seminary student I was disappointed because I felt we weren't spending enough time on the actual history of the bible itself. At the time, I thought that, as a future minister, it was my duty to be an "expert" on every aspect of the bible. I decided to do my own research. To make a long, disillusioning, and painful story short, understanding the bible and its history literally turned me into an atheist. Absolutely true. Since then I've discovered that there are actually many other people who made the same journey as I did. In seminary I was being taught WHAT to think. Needless to say, I dropped out and went to a real university where they taught me HOW to think.

  17. John

    As a young seminary student I was disappointed because I felt we weren't spending enough time on the actual history of the bible itself. At the time, I thought that, as a future minister, it was my duty to be an "expert" on every aspect of the bible. I decided to do my own research. To make a long, disillusioning, and painful story short, understanding the bible and its history literally turned me into an atheist. Absolutely true. Since then I've discovered that there are actually many other people who made the same journey as I did. In seminary I was being taught WHAT to think. Needless to say, I dropped out and went to a real university where they taught me HOW to think.

  18. bbga

    "there is plenty of verifiable historical evidence to demonstrate that many of the founding fathers were certainly not true believing Christians"

    That's what I just did for you:)

    "Jefferson is the big one everyone talks about"

    - I agreed with you.

    "And, while not a founding father, F.D. Roosevelt seemed never to miss a chance to invoke God in his speeches"

    You're changing the subject. We were talking about the Founding Father's beliefs.

    "There is plenty of easily obtainable verifiable historical evidence out there for anyone who gives a bother to actually do some legitimate, unbiased, critical research."

    - You're sounding pedantic and condescending here. Fine, but if you're targeting me... go find some other poor sap. I'm a history/civics teacher. I know all this.

    All I am saying, and I think most historians would agree, that the 55 members of the Constitutional Congress had a varying degree of beliefs. BUT...Many were, in fact, Christian, however on the spectrum you want to place them (or not at all).

    Have a good day.

  19. Malchik

    Don't pick and choose, what's written is written. The Christians in this video claim that the Bible is the word of God from cover to cover. Using quotes from the old testament to cement his claims is valid when they literally tried to justified slavery in the old testament in this documentary.

    Give me reason why, even if they are strictly observing the new testament, that they can denounce kosher foods, yet oppose homosexuality so adamantly; it's all found in the old scripture.

  20. Yeung Xiao

    good docs, this is stuff i want to do. This shows that any of us have the power and the ability to ask good questions and make good documentaries. I loved it.

  21. Paul Currie

    absolutely frightening. if you don't seperate church from state you end up with dumb **** like creationism being taught in schools. which it is, i believe, in some states. this dribble is finding its way into uk schools also.
    typical expantonist's manifesto. ramming complete **** down everyone's throats because they can't except anyone else's point of view.
    the most annoying thing is when apparently inteligent people claim the only reason they don't commit crime or tell lies etc, is out of fear of god. dumb ***** shouldn't be allowed out of their houses.

  22. Pysmythe

    Seems they do have good incentives for avoiding certain aspects, doesn't it? If your spiritual life -and your salary- depends upon "not knowing" a lot of uncomfortable facts, it's gonna be pretty hard and unusual for you to teach them to someone else!

  23. Charles Rhodes

    I believed for most of my life that people had a quest for truth and made an effort to be smart enough to make sound judgements. Now that I am old and have studied human beings in this country my whole life.I am totally disgusted with the stupid followers of religion who are so hopeless as to not even be able to find any spiritual compass in their own lives and yet play GOD,(just like their play GOD), and dictate what is right and wrong.

  24. Philio

    A quote from one of my favorite scriptures, The Declaration of Independence:

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.”

    I really appreciate the way these men expressed themselves. They give no name to their Creator but do reference that Creator as nature’s God in the first paragraph.

    …to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them…..

    There is also no religious affiliation mentioned. So personally I don’t care if you call that Creator the Higgs Boson just as long as those “certain unalienable rights” remain beyond the power of any man or government to revoke.

    So believe or don’t believe. That is your choice as an equal in creation but don’t even consider forcing your take on the matter on another person. I have served during time of war with pride and honor in what those words express and would do so again.

    The Religious freedom mentioned in the first amendment and phrased as:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

    It expresses both the right to religion and the right from religion. Unfortunately this nation has been bifurcated into competing factions each intolerant of the others rights. It has ceased to be the land of E Pluribus Unum and has become the land of the elevation of one Ego, theirs at the cost of another’s. That type of freedom soon evaporates. What is forgotten is that what we demean, what we ridicule and what we hate is the projection of ones self.

  25. relament

    I think it was a pretty good documentary. Thanks, TDF:)

  26. wald0

    Watched about ten minutes of this and stopped. I live in the southestern U.S. so I am used to people believing these kinds of silly things. I hear people around here saying that Obama isn't really American and practices Islam all the time. The truth is much simpler though, they don't like him because he is black. I mean don't get me wrong they are prejudice against muslims and immigrants as well but, him being black is the straw that broke the camels back where they are concerned. The republican estbalishment has played this kind of thing up as well, inspiring people to think they may be on to something when in reality they know better. If Obama were truly not an American citizen the republicans would have proven it before he ever won the election. Very powerful and rich men with all the necessary resources to expose even the smoothest of criminals want to see Obama gone, if his birth certificate were a fake they would know by now and they would have used it to take him down. These are the last cries of the neo-con trash that refuses to die. The younger generations coming up in these same places are much more educated and less religious, more tolerant and less red kneck. Most of them have been exposed to so much more than their parents ever were, its unbelievable. I guess that is mostly because of the internet, improved education, and a decline in religion. That said right now we are predominantly evangelical republicans, they have the majority and all the power here, for now.

  27. 10000 rpm

    I just really like turtles.

  28. Malchik

    So true.

  29. Jeremy

    There is more than enough evidence showing that the mass majority of founding fathers were Deists. Not christians, at all.

  30. Jeremy

    In fact, several of them wrote books that condemned christianity, and god worship in general. The point is, the separation of church and state, was added into the constitution to PREVENT a faith takeover of the country. Freedom to worship was already covered.

  31. perfectarc

    Religion ....... is an evil, divisive enterprise.

  32. Jeremy

    Oh cuz it totally makes sense, that god can change from mean to nice. What are you six?

  33. Jeremy

    it is not just islam bud, it's all religions, and there is JUST cause to be phobic towards them, if you don't understand why, then this argument is not worth having.

  34. Pysmythe

    Evangelical Rethuglicans, and anyone else who would dare alienate women (especially), hispanics, and students, are all going to be in for a big surprise in November.

  35. Jeremy

    Haha, Richard Blakeley is one of those "creation scientists" LMAO

  36. Pysmythe

    Yep, and profoundly influenced by the ideas of the French Enlightenment, within which deism and atheism were predominant.

  37. Jane Doe

    A quote from Bill Maher: "Christians aren't followers of Jesus, they are fans of Jesus".

    I wonder how many of them have actually read the bible. (from what I understand, Jesus was a 'live and let live' kind of guy, not hateful and judgmental).
    But I've been wrong before :)

  38. Daniel Keogh

    God? What God? Show me proof.


    Well done documentary. I know where my feelings were in this "debate" and they were not with the people threatening to break immigrant's ankles and protester's arms, good christians though they claim to be. Amazing that they can't see their own ugliness even when saying the ugly words.

  40. BeardHero420

    "I would kick that god in the balls."



  41. PavolvsBitch

    It is nonsense, isn't it? christianity was created over 300 years after 'JC's death by a mishmash of judaic, hindi, gnostic garbledash. It is every bit as satanic (in this sign conquer) as the rest of them. If people were 'followers of jesus christ' they wouldn't need a bloody book, weekly church, confessions and all the other garbage. They'd just 'do it' see? Same for all the rest of them. it's simple. Do unto others, respect your neighbour, know yourself, be true to yourself and if it does no harm, do right by your soul's will. What the hell is the problem with that?

  42. HawaiiSEO

    Yes... 8 month pregnant and 18 year old Ann Dunham (Obama's Mother) traveled 10,000 miles from Hawaii to Kenya to give birth.

    AND - Even though Ann has just given birth and is probably in no condition to make the 10,000 mile trip back home she must do it ASAP. Because if she doesn't get the fake birth certificate slipped in to the state records within 5 days the newspapers in Hawaii won't pick up the birth announcements and expose the entire conspiracy.

    You might ask WHY would she do this? After all she is an American citizen and her child would still be an American citizen even if the didn't hide her amazing race to Kenya to give birth and race and back home to Hawaii.

    That's not important. All that matters is that she did it. Stop asking questions.

  43. SrqSeo

    I am sorry, I have tried to give this website a chance.

    Yes, I think these flag waving Christians are screwballs, but it is obvious that the agenda of this website owner is so left slanted, yet they deny it.

    But as a conservative I believe they have the right to put on what they want but I have the right not to visit this website anymore.

    I believe TopDocumentaryFilms is more a left leaning schill pushing left leaning ideas then some site that offers links to a wide balanced array of doc films.

    I suspect your traffic has dropped in time. If not, it has by one today.

    America is still center-right yes?

    Oh well, you guys can always row to Cuba if it doesn't go your way.

  44. SrqSeo

    Do you know American history at all?

    Separation of Church and state was not to prevent Christianity from dominating the country.

    It was demanded by Jefferson, after his experience defending a renegade Anglican priest who celebrated Sunday "mass" with back wood Baptists against the wishes of the Anglican Church of Virginia.

    Jefferson was also appalled by the Virginian Anglican Church demanding that thru taxes all Virginians should pay for church expenses.

    This is why we have the politicians we have, no one really knows American history.

  45. Malchik

    "Yes, I think these wave flagging Christians are screwballs, but it is obvious that the agenda of this website owner is so left slanted, yet they deny it."

    "Agenda" a buzzword by people who don't like a communities popular view.

    "But as a conservative I believe they have the right to put on what they want but I have the right not to visit this website anymore."

    How nice of you, I'm sure glad the conservatives are here to grant us our diplomatic rights.

    "I believe TopDocumentaryFilms is more a left leaning schill pushing left leaning ideas then some site that offers links to a wide balanced array of doc films."

    Yeah, if only this place was a little more "Fair and Balanced", eh?

    "I suspect your traffic has dropped in time. If not, it has by one today."

    Don't let the door hit your rear on the way out, we wouldn't want to see you with double the butt-hurt.

    "Oh well, you guys can always row to Cuba if it doesn't go your way."

    Is that an lick of Repub-smug?

    Seriously, there are people here flabbergasted at religious zealots and you make it a left and right issue.

  46. SrqSeo

    Must have hit deep in the core of what you are, ay?

    BTW, I see you failed to critique one line where I said:

    "America is still center-right yes?"

    But I am sure you were grinding your teeth by then.

  47. Warren

    Taking the constituion LITERALLY is just the same as believeing every story in the Bible LITERALLY. No man or woman can live inside a fish/whale/whatever and there are no such things as talking snakes. SO, When the constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" , it means that you are free to practice and believe any religion you want, but THE COUNTRY CANNOT ESTABLISH A RELIGION FOR EVERYONE TO FOLLOW. Just because it doesn't say "Church and State are seperate" , doesn't mean they are not seperate.

  48. Malchik

    Yes, I find the stupid irritating.

  49. SrqSeo

    Judging is something you lefties like alot, right next to inciting class warfare.

    Hey, look, it's your holiday today. May 1.

    (And I am sure it is not the Feast of the Assumption)

  50. SrqSeo

    Separation of Church and State is a catch phrase from the Federalist Papers. But I am sure you knew that. [sarcasm]

    Look, I do not believe Church should be an arm within the state, but even more so, I do not believe the state has a right to tell the church what to do, say like, oh I dunno, funding abortion pills maybe?

  51. GodmanEnki

    "Move somewhere else?" Boy, I see the "Christians" are still "burning "Witches" at the stake!" How "true to the faith is that?" Sad, very, very sad. Religion SHOULD "unite people," NOT DIVIDE THEM! I reckon some "Christians" STILL DON'T GET IT? Jesus would be pissed off I have no doubt. It is NOT "our-job" to judge others. Isn't that was he was "quoted" as saying? "LOVE your enemies? Do good to them that curse you?" All that talk didn't help the Jews that had Pontious Pilot murder him for being a "true" human-being. Rather than a "Christian-all-high-and-mighty!" I say shame on them for saying that to ANYONE. The "Almighty" is the ONLY "judge." Certainly no "so-called" Christian. In fact, to be more accurate, they SHOULD BE CALLED "Paulians." I've never seen Tabetian Buddists start any wars. But watch out for the Hindu's man. Unless, they too, have "learned their lessons?"

  52. GodmanEnki

    That just goes to show, the "Christians" can't even AGREE on anything. The "church" ANY "church" is all about the dollar bill. Not necessarily the perishners, but THE PRIESTS! (AND I AN NOT REFERRING TO THE BUDDHISTS)

  53. Malchik

    Yeah, I don't think people realize they wrote the constitution the way it is becasue they knew they could not possibly make a democracy to favor any and all religions groups and still be considered a free nation.

    It's sad becasue people can have their religious-cake and eat it too while living in a society that allows all flavors of cake to exist. But I guess some people are just incapable of understanding that their cake isn't necessarily the right cake for everyone.

  54. GodmanEnki

    Too bad you have to go, but do "what you gotta do." As long as YOU yourself, do not become what you judge unnecessarily.

  55. Warren

    15:00 - No, it says alot about Americans and thier willingness to be brainwashed and follow cults. Nothing said about faith because the following clip basically says F*** your nieghbor....if they don't like it, they can move.

  56. GodmanEnki

    I'm sorry to disagree, but I don't believe we should EVER "stop asking questions." That is the very thing that confuses these sad folks. They never ASK "the right question, from the right person." Unless you meant that as a joke?

  57. GodmanEnki

    Good humor makes for the best medicine.

  58. GodmanEnki

    I don't believe "that god" even HAS "balls." I think "He's" a SHE! What has a man ever "created" without a good woman by his side? IF.... it was true, "God made Eve FOR "Adam" then THAT is how it should be, depending on WHO YOU ARE.

  59. GodmanEnki

    "In truth" I think THEY ARE "Paulians."

  60. GodmanEnki

    "Rethuglikians?" That's funny. You cracked me up. Thanks for that. Laughter is good stuff for our souls.

  61. Warren

    21:45 - Such a wide variety of backgrounds.....and many different dominations." - Hmm, I bet they were all white....and christian.....and I bet they believed in Jesus Christ. Doesn't sound very different to me.

  62. Warren

    22:35 - Best part of the whole movie.......She is totally depressed over what she read. "I don't know, I can't answer for God" - Best qoute of the movie.

  63. GodmanEnki

    Then "HE" is not a "God," he is a MAN! Only a "man" or "women too" would "lose their tempers." Any "True God" (if one exists) I think that's why Jesus lost-it at the temple. He lost, even temporarily, his "humanity." Whatever THAT means? That is to say, IF Jesus ever existed. I'm beginning to think some "Christians" are NOT what they "pretend" to be? I ceriously doubt, if Jesus WAS a man, and not a "God" then He would not have gotten angry. But the "God" of the Old Testament did some pretty shitty stuff. Like the two she-bears for making fun of some bald dude! Just imagine 2 bears tearing CHILDREN APART for such an insignificant thing!

  64. GodmanEnki

    I don't think "Christians" will ever "rule" in the "North American Union?"

  65. Malchik

    I'm sure bald people applauded.

  66. GodmanEnki


  67. Jack_Burton

    Religion is for primitives....

  68. GodmanEnki

    I couldn't care less "what color he is." I only care if he is honest. And "so-far" he's lied and lied and lied. I apologize I wasted a vote. Not that it "mattered." Like Kerry's cousin George Bush, Daddy "made it happen." SO OBAMA, "WHO'S YOUR DADDY?" Now THAT sounds "Christian" to me. Or even perhaps a deceptive Muslim, whatever. It's not so extraordinary, is it? The FreeMasons have "ruled" for the "Elitists" since Washington was President. I know I read somewhere, where MOST "Presidents" belong to one "Secret Society" or another. "Skull and Bones WAS "Scull and Bones" at one time. JFK said it, and THEY killed the man for it! IN BROAD DAYLIGHT! It may be too late for "the good people" of this once proud nation. Even when they MURDERED MECRCILESSLY the Native Indians that didn't START the fight. The EUROPEANS STARTED the killing. Not the Indians. The Indians had "no clue" how DECIETFUL some Europeans can be, and were. Especially from the Catholic Church. "Angelicans," "Mormans," all have evil "in them." What matters most, is CONTROLLING THAT EVIL ! Controlling GREED and evil thought towards others. Even, "one's own enemies!"

  69. Warren

    100%.....I'm 100% sure that YOU don't know if God is real or not. Hell.....I'm 1000% sure....Beat that

  70. GodmanEnki

    Those old Freemason's could really "talk the talk." Heck, Little-georgie-boy can't even remember his own lies. THAT is what My Dad "tried" to teach me, and just "went about it in the wong way." He just didn't "know any better." 13 KIDS! My Granma was a horney old girl. BUT, HONEST one! Made the best pies in San Bernardino county! Yes she did. I remember last time I saw her, she asked me, "Well, Donnie, how long were you married to Angel?" I said Grandma, only 6 years. Fact is, we "shacked-up" for year, then the day I came home with "tire-tracks-all-across-my-back" she "did" my best friend, out of spite. Like "she did" her ex-husbands friend, AND high school wresling coach, now deceased Mr. Dominguez! My ex was wrong, it wasn't from who she "thought" they were from. It was Diane Winkler, and NOT "Lara Hunter." oops...... "What goes around, Comes around!

  71. GodmanEnki

    I think it is more about THE GOLD that no longer, if ever, exists in the so-called "Federal Reserve." People are waking up though. I just hope we aren't "too late." Anyone who can understand WHAT is writen on the back on a one-dollar-bill; it will-become "self-eveident" to them then!

  72. GodmanEnki

    I believe you are correct. History is not "set in stone." Except for perhaps the "Georgia Guide Stones?"

  73. GodmanEnki

    When my unknowing Father, put me in a parocial-school" I'm sure he "thought" he was doing what's right. But I also believe, the "vaccination" I there received, is the very reason I have no children. Girlfriends I had. Children, I raised "other's." "OUR SAVIOR LUTHERAN SCHOOL" is where I "got it. My younger brother and older sister (now deceased) bith have kids. They don't "murder the first born" they WAY they use to. Now instead of bullets or swords, THEY DECIETFULLY- "use needles." So go ahead and sue me!

  74. Warren

    Are you trying to tell me that the government is MAKING churches fund abortion pills? BTW, abortion pills are the exact same thing as birth control, but I'm sure you knew that already (sarcasm)

  75. Warren

    Just keep any kind of religion out of politcal views or laws and everything will be fine and dandy. Keep your beliefs to yourself, don't pry on won't get anywhere but farther away.

  76. GodmanEnki

    Funny guy!

  77. GodmanEnki

    Uhh, I believe I read "Roosevelt" was in truth "ROSENFELT' A Jewish name, deceitfully changed. Something like that. The very same deciet that remains in power, WAS in power, and will probably always BE "in power." Though a "GOIYM" I am not! Read "Protocols of the Elders of Zion." Better yet, read the Secret Doctrine by by H.P. Blavatsky. That will "shake-up your sh*t. That girl was DEEP!

  78. GodmanEnki

    "CHURCH" is a BUSINESS, like any other "business." It's "all about the bottom-line."

  79. GodmanEnki

    I COULDN"T 'afford" college. I was forced to wake-up with the spirit that dwells in us all. I believe it IS the SAME spirit, and "the goiym" just are still asleep. Again, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion." Of course, it is "supposed to be" fake. Sounds pretty convincing to me. But, like the Bible, "it is written." And CAN BE "altered or interpolated." FORGED if you will. The text from Sumeria are "set in stone" and I look forward to meeting them. IF indeed it is true about the Annunaki. Enki and his brother Enlil, just might still be living. OR, just another BS game for our heads?

  80. GodmanEnki

    "History" my friend, is "written by the WINNERS." That don't make-it-necessarily-so.....

  81. GodmanEnki

    Listen CHILD, I have read "that-book" many times. Although Ordained, I refuse to "teach the Gospel," and do NOT "believe in superstitions!" Any book, already written, can-be FOLLOWED. And still be in error. The NT and the OT. Jesus, if true, was a REBEL WITH A CAUSE, or a complete and utter fake? Were YOU there? Asked the man from 9/11? I am not 2000 years old. 2012 years to be more accurate. The POPE "Changed the callender" to "fit THAT book."

  82. GodmanEnki

    "Shakespear" was I believe was in fact that evil wizard, yuk, yuk, Roger Bacon of the Roman Catholic Church. "Then came Luther." That "trouble maker." Taking the change from the Romans. That is to say, the "Roman Catholic Church" which was accused of "burning women, ALIVE." Now THAT is "Holy" yea?

  83. Warren

    Wonder how May 21st worked out for all those who believe? At least we know how one guy spent it...(suicide)

  84. GodmanEnki

    I seem to remember reading somewhere, Jesus, had a GIRL-FRIEND. As long as I don't have to "see" it, I leave to "the Almighty" whomever SHE or HE or "it" may be. It was "Adam(a) and EVE not "Adam and Steve." "God is a CONCEPT" by which we measure OUR PAIN." (Lennon) Most likely, the dude that killed Lennon, was under-the-inflence of "mind-control." Our government are EXPERTS at it. THEY "took him out" just like "they" took-out Kennedy. I was 12 then. Everyone all the way from San Diego to San Jose were crying their eyes out. "Mara" has no "feelings" as do we humans. (most I think do) Or, at least Iwould "prefer it" to be that-way?

  85. GodmanEnki

    That is WHY the Jewish refer to "them" as "GOIYM." Cattle in other words.

  86. GodmanEnki

    Washington HIMSELF, was quoted as saying so. "In NO WAY, was the United States founded on Christianity." (George Washington) Don't you find it "strange" that the "Washington monument" is EXACLY LIKE the "Lucifer" statue! They were DIESTS, NOT "Christians." That "God" part was ADDED IN THE 50'S!

  87. GodmanEnki

    "Please God, protect me from your followers." (Murdoc)

  88. GodmanEnki

    The "Christians" are FAMOUS for their "understanding and non-judgemental nature." "God" is a "SPIRIT." Not a "human being." But I enjoyed the story anyway.

  89. GodmanEnki

    Most "so-called Chrstians" I've known, "KNOW no "other." And "judge others" even when THEIR OWN BOOK say to "not judge others." THAT particular "job, belongs to the Almighty itself."

  90. GodmanEnki

    Well spoken

  91. GodmanEnki

    I watched this all of 10 seconds and shut it off! I REFUSE to "allow anyone to alter my beliefs." If "God" wants me to "change" myself, then let "God" change me. Not these HYPOCITES! Who "teach" only hate and spite. As do "many" in the so-called-Christian-faith. I FEEL for them.

  92. Jeremy

    I'm like, 85% *sure* that Srqseo is my grandmother. Lol, same rhetoric, believes the founding fathers were attempting to protect religion, LMAO, as if, quite the opposite indeed. Why would Deists be concerned with protecting and enshrining the VERY religion they sought to detach from? NO it was to protect the constitution from churches, and their greedy pedo claws. If you do not understand the events that led up to the American revolution, then you will continue to be ignorant. Now go watch more Faux news Srqseo.

  93. Warren

    1:37:00 - Un-******* can you KNOW someone is in hell? Especially when you don't have one BAD thing that he had done. That man is a horrible person and deserves whatever HELL he is given.

  94. Jeremy

    Here ya go = )


    CLearly a slap in the face of the ex pagans and a mockery of their supposed religion, in fact, he was in that POSE as a direct THREAT to Christian religion, it was a symbolic metaphor for "you are not welcome here, stay in Rome"

    But, I'm sure Srqseo will say that is just "coincidence" LMAO, right... Keep trying buddy.

    In fact, this is from a zionist website pointing out the fact that washington was a spawn of satan, aka, u represent freedom, and the religious people label you as the devil.

    Good thing Washington used it to his advantage as a great symbolical message, but too bad the history books were rewritten.

    I also obviously realize that Washington himself did not build the monument, it was done by the Free Masons. A society of individuals that have known for centuries that the modern faiths are bogus, also keep in mind Robert Mills was very studied in Washington's writings, he did his homework, and we should be grateful.

  95. Jeremy

    The fact they put it in an Egyptian style Obelisk is just further throwback to Christianity and it's roots in Pagan sun god worship, and to highlight the fact that it is in fact, a plagiarized version of the Egyptian sun God.

  96. docoman

    Wow. Sure glad I don't live there. For a religion that supposedly preaches love, there was a lot of hostility just to get their own way.
    A christian flag at a war memorial. Looks like they seem to think that only christian soldiers fought. Even when a fair solution was found they still act as if only what they think matters. Spoiled children wanting their own way.
    Spoiled, delusional, brainwashed, nonthinking, dangerous children.
    What a pack of loonies.

  97. Dean Edgington

    I walked past a jesus army nutter in my home town and just because i didnt stop to talk to him when he tried to bother me with his delusional nonsense, He said "enjoy hell". I wanted to knock the **** out of him for making what amounts to a threat. Dont get upset get satirical and go out your way to wind them up, it really good fun.

  98. Dean Edgington

    Dont get upset get satirical and go out your way to wind them up, its really good fun.

  99. wt1776

    What a disjointed documentary. And 2 hours of m*rons arguing their stupid beliefs, and a huge fuss over a damn flag. Geez. What a bunch of imbeciles. Even children have more common sense.

  100. Andrew Preston

    Superb Doc, should be watched by all

  101. dewflirt

    That woman! I wouldn't have had slaves.....unless I needed them to work my land. What a swear word :/

  102. flinktor flinktor

    @GodmanEnki- if your god was not a he or she then obviously it is an "it".
    When you say God and its not from earth then he must be an alien because anything that is not human or from earth is an alien to us. So this alien species made us and it said that it made us in its the primitive story continues, God makes us and then hands in the manual of life for example a bible.. which has the following violent commands -

    PSALM 137 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is the one who repays you according to what you have done to us. Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

    1ST SAMUEL 15:2-3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.

    NUMBERS 25:17 16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 “Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them.

    NUMBERS 31:17 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,

    NUMBERS 25:3-5 The LORD said to Moses, “Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the LORD, so that the LORD’s fierce anger may turn away from Israel.” HE SOUNDS QUITE SADISTIC AND CRUEL

    Now, I'd rather believe its an alien than the almighty if it exists at all and I highly doubt it.. on the other hand I need not worry about God or Aliens now because someday or the other science will get its hand on it..then there'd be only 2 possible conclusions, God exists or Not. And, if science proves that God doesn't exists I'm sure all religious people will still continue believing God and find silly excuses but on the other hand scientific community would be happy either way..because we like to learn and explore even if it was GOD.

  103. Sharon Hutchinson

    Actually, the reference to god began during the Civil War, when it was used by various Union regiments. Petitions were made to Congress to place it on coins, and it appeared on and off until the 1950s, when it was made official. This was in large part done to "give the finger", as it were, to the godless Soviet Union.

    From Wikipedia:

    "In 1873, Congress passed the Coinage Act, granting that the Secretary of the Treasury "may cause the motto IN GOD WE TRUST to be inscribed on such coins as shall admit of such motto.""

    So you are correct, but it did appear on currency before that time.

  104. CapnCanard

    a little bit of the The Colbert bump, eh Dean? Nice...

  105. CapnCanard

    LOL Max, though she, like all the pitiful, does deserve nothing but our pity.

  106. Sharon Hutchinson

    Just some thoughts--should the Founding Fathers have worded that bit about religion differently; i.e., make it clearer exactly what they meant? Should they have maybe not even have mentioned religion? If they could only have foreseen the idiocy created by religious groups based on the "separation" clause!

    Another thing-I am certain that clause did not mean that religious groups could exist in the US while thumbing their noses at this country's laws. Many such groups, including the Amish and some of the Mormons, as well as Islamists who believe that the only law they should follow is Sharia, claim that the laws of this country don't apply to them. Is this not sedition?

    NO country should allow such people within its borders. Of this I am certain--the Constitution and Bill of Rights were never intended to let religious groups exist in the US who turn around and proclaim the laws of the land do not apply to them. If this is what they believe, then they have no business living in this country.

    It boggles my mind. Hitchens was right; religion poisons everything.

  107. Mike

    The "fish/whale" of the Bible is the name of a ship. Jonah was in the hold of the Whale for 3 days.
    The only religion talked about when this Nation was formed was Christianity. Read the Mayflower Compact. They came for the glory of God and to advance the Christian Faith.

  108. Mike

    Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies that should not I reign over them, bring hither and slay them before me. (Words of Jesus Christ).

  109. Mike

    Jefferson wrote, "all men are created equal", yet he owned black slaves, so he didn't mean them did he?

  110. nexus974

    Well...that was disturbing.

  111. Philio

    Actually it wouldn’t matter if a monkey typed those words randomly on a keyboard. The force of those words is far and above any given author. They stand on their own. The only problems lay with the reader. The reader either believes in the idea or they don’t. If the reader is in agreement with the words the belief is evident in their life. If not it becomes a platitude and no more. There is a lot of that in this current generation, a lot of smoke and no fire.

  112. GodmanEnki

    What was "Jesus" quoted as saying,? LOVE YOUR ENEMIES! DO GOOD TO THOSE WHO PERSECUTE YOU." I hate to say it, because when I saw Obama BOW TO A SAUDI KING, (A MUSLIM) THAT "PROVED" he is not of the so-called "Christian Faith." But if you study History, you will KNOW; Georeg Washington himeself, was quoted as saying, "In NO WAY, was the "United Sates founded on the Christian faith." Do YOUR HOME WORK, AND STOP ALL THE HATE YOU PROTRUDE TO OTHERS. "DO GOOD TO THOSE WHO PERSECUTE YOU!" "Judge not, less YE be "judged." READ your Bible kiddies. I hate to say it, I voted for Obama becuase he IS "intelligent." I didn't realize he was born in Kenya. His own MOTHER said so! Obama does "as he is told by TPTB." He was "put in" to calm down black people. I have nothing against ANYONE "WHO IS HONEST." But so-called "Christians" haven't READ their Bibles! That is the ONLY TRUE statement Obama has ever said! While I was offended about what he said about "the sermin on the mount," he was CORRECT. People, aka "Christians" only listen to the preacher, and believe everything they hear from whoever he is. "WITHOUT QUESTION!" THAT, is a BIG, BIG, mistake.

  113. GodmanEnki


  114. GodmanEnki

    IF indeed "Jesus" said it THAT WAY, "Jesus" hasn't read his English books! Or maybe YOU just misquoted him? I aint gonna waste my time to "look it up." Because WAY too-many "Christians" come as thieves in the night.""And HYPOCRITES! AND to their own "faith!"THOSE MINE ENEMIES THAT should I not reign over them," is VERY poor English! Isn't "the Son of Man" supposed to "BE" God? Then WHY did he not speak PROPER English?

  115. GodmanEnki

    "The Glory of God" isn't "lets kill them Mother FKRS! As the Military Industrial Complex TEACHES new recrutes to say, over and over, and over again. 'BRAINWASHING THEM!' "OO, AH, I WANNA KILL SOMEONE!" What kinda sh*t is that? Jesus would NEVER "allow" crap like that. Certainy not the "Jesus" I've come to know. Or anything else the "Military Industrial Complex" continues to do to INNOCENT people, who simply believe in THEIR OWN God, almost like Christians do. Sure, Muslims have "bad people." But SO DOES EVERY COUNTRY ON THE PLANET! And that INCLUDES "the North American Union." "America" hasn't existed for 7 YEARS! Wake the hell up you guys! It was established by little Georgie Bush in 2005! Do some research, and stop believing every darn thing the Priest tells you! USE YOUR BRAIN, that's why "God" gave it to you, in the first place! Stop all this "judgemental-evil-hate!"

  116. Michaël Vienneau

    Every human being is born with equal rights, but these rights may be taken away from them after birth. In the case of an African slave, they are born free but their freedom is taken away a few moments after. So yeah, I think he meant these words, but of course I could be wrong :P

  117. GodmanEnki

    That is the first time I heard that. Because no one could live for 3 days inside of a REAL "whale." You know, "stomach Acid?"

  118. GodmanEnki

    The founders used the word "God" they never said Yahwey, or Jehovah! And "In God we trust" was interpolated in the 1950's. Do some research people. STOP believing, without question, every thing the "preacher" tells you. "Preachers" are ALL "human" and subject to errors!

  119. Michaël Vienneau

    "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Is from the King James Version, the English Standard Version reads "But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me" Here, your Jesus now speaks proper English.

  120. Charles Alderson

    The lack of education in this country is amazing compared to the amount of wealth and productivity. You would think with so many poorly educated people we'd be in a lot worse shape. Maybe we are headed that way though, who knows. I wonder if my neighborhood would actually stone a bad kid to death if it was brought up at a council meeting. I'm at least sure we'd get some yes votes.

  121. docoman

    That woman was... arrrgh. :(
    Yeah, why do people only talk about the bad side of slavery. What about the good things, like... ummm....
    Quite a few of the people shown in this had a very glazed look in their eyes. Not much going on behind many of those eyes.

  122. dewflirt

    I saw her lips move and I heard the words come out so it must be true, I still can't believe anyone would say it out loud though. She should have kept that one in her head, like you said - lights are on but there's nobody home :)

  123. dewflirt

    I got chased by a jesus army nutter at Glastonbury when I was 17 ish, he gave me a flapjack then tried to pray at me so I legged it. Hid in the krishna tent, they gave me dinner and beads, no strings attached ;)

  124. Sieben Stern

    there is not a 'thall shall not rape' anywhere in the bible let alone in the ten commandments.

    the stupid.... it BURNS... >_<

  125. Sieben Stern

    you know... any time people want god in politics, or influencing anything other than their own gray matter, they should have to prove or produce a god. and show undeniable proof that their god wants what they want.

  126. Sieben Stern

    let's hope it's the first step in a long journey towards growing up. :3

  127. a_no_n

    At the end of the day, look at what a lot of American christians have done to their own god at the most basic of levels!
    The same Jesus who threw the money lenders out of the temple, and who gave the poor more than he had, and encouraged everyone to share likewise, has somehow become the god of wall street and reganomics. A god that wouldn't support wealth distribution or welfare programmes for the poor.

    When you look at that kind of mutilation, and realize they've willingly done to their own saviour to avoid making any kind of personal changes or can you expect them to hold anything sacred?

    the general idea is that you change their lives to fit their religion...conservative Christianity and ironically Jihadi Islam seem to be the only ones who have done it the other way around, and twisted their religions to fit their lives instead.

  128. Eileen Sabel

    as a secular Jew,all I can say is brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr........what's next?death camps and ovens?!WE ARE NOT A THEOCRACY-look at the ex-USSR,Nazi Germany,Iran 1980's,etc.I like the Rev.that said"render unrto Ceaser....."RIGHT ON-frewedom FROM religion?I for one,don;;t believe in a male sky god of BCE tijmes..."the Jews poisoned the well"-13th CrnAD Europe.pluss,does heaven have a ramp?(I use a wheelchair)heaven,rapture,savior???PROVE IT-pleas e-mail me back,I LOVE a good debate-I'm civil.

  129. wald0

    The biblical story of Jonah clearly is not talking about a ship when it says he was in the belly of the great fish for three days. If you read the story he was in the bellly of a ship lying down when a storm came upon them. Jonah is then forced over board by the men of that ship when they discover he is fleeing a commandment from God. The whole point of Jonah's being swallowed by the fish is to demonstrate that one can never run from Gods will, that no matter where you flee he is there, that no matter how you resist in the end you will do his bidding. If Jonah simply got into another ship named the whale, and by the way the word "whale" never appeared in the original story and still doesn't in most translations, then he would have just kept on running and would have had no reason to give into Gods plan for him to be a prophet.

    Now don't get me wrong, I am a athiest and don't put much stock in the Bible as the word of some omnipotent entity but, it does have some very cool stories in it. In fact it is a tremendous work of ancient art in my opinion. The issues come in when you guys have to try and rationalize what it is telling you because what it is saying is simply to fantastic and unbelievable to accept as reality. It makes no sense that soemone could live for three days in the belly of a whale, so it must have been the name of a boat- thats the logic you guys try to apply to it. The truth is it was written during a time when people didn't know enough about reality to scoff at such a tale as Jonah being eaten by a whale and living three days in its belly. It was written during a time when people still believed in magic and the super natural because they didn't have any other answers. But here were the answers, all together in one book, and look there is even a happy ending- if you play by the rules that is. And here we are over 2000 years later and we know much more now- becareful you don't rationalize the omnipotence right out of your hero. No book is a real story without a hero right?

  130. Mad

    LOL the guy with facepaint who believes in the ancient aliens theory must have been there just for pure comedy relief value... haha

  131. Mad

    So I'm an hour & a half in and these people are all victims of brainwashing, without the thinly veiled mask of religion are without a shadow of a doubt showing tell tale sides of cult-like behaviors. These people make me absolutely sick, and if I had any idea how to stop these people from turning America into a theocracy (as if being a fascist, militarized police state wasn't bad enough) I would do it in a heartbeat. I think a section of the country needs to be set up as a "puritan reservation" and let the rest of us (sane) people live in peace without all totalitarian theocracy boots stamping on our necks

  132. Mad

    Oh and if there is a heaven for the soul to travel to as a reward for good behavior, none of these people are worthy, in fact heaven IMHO would be getting away from these Neanderthals and never coming in contact with any of their kind ever again.

  133. Jeremy

    Opposition of religion must be fervent in their pursuit of the truth. Do not let Christians trample all that our ancestors have worked for. Keep up the good fight ladies and gentlemen.

  134. TomazZzz

    Are you all prtegnjen??? In the head?
    Don't tell me that also in USofA Christian Sect doesn't need to pay taxes, regardles of this BIIIIG SAVING FRENZY?

  135. Guest

    If the goal to education was to become a better person, a happier person, a person who ends up doing what he/she loves doing...more people would get educated.
    If education was cheaper in the US and not (hugely) debt creating....more people would get educated.
    But the goal of education has become to pick a line of work that will make one a lot of money to live rich and to pay a huge loan one could not afford in the beginning of adulthood.
    Also....when kids are confronted to school or work, they often choose work so they can quickly have credit cards and be able to afford the life full of debts of their parents in order to own a car, a fashionable wardrobe and as many toys as possible.
    It is easy to get a low paying job selling to others TOYS and more TOYS, we are surrounded by boutiques and stores, by commercial main streets and huge shopping malls.
    The biggest problem is ourself and our need to consume. If it was possible to change the perception of need, the battle would be half won.

  136. Keith D Wilson

    Ah, if only the commenters on TDF could have the same wisdom, restraint, and listening attitude to a plurality of perspectives, as does this film. Great piece of work and despite the not above about it being an amateur film, it is well done.

  137. IsraelAli76

    Hot damn! I done seen da lite! I'm going down to my local baptist meeting place this Sunday and get water boarded!

    This doc just goes to show that once "some" people become so called "christians" they lose the ability to think on their own, or, as an obvious example, the old preacher lady with the thin glasses (she took them off near the end of the doc), the ability to think at all. Or maybe they never had that ability to begin with.

    I also wonder if Native Americans feel this country was founded on some kind of faith. I would question that faith.

  138. markq_99

    A scary video. And that comes from a person who knows about these kinds... Afterall, I was born and raised on the buckle of the bible belt, Wichita, Kansas. I spent 31 years there trying to find the love and tolerance, the giving and understanding, that they teach about, and preach about. So few actually live what they preach, unless it the hate side; they are good at that. I find it amazing that amount of ignorance they seem to all share about their own freakin book! Do any of them actually read their book all the way thru? Can you imagine going to the University of Washington to study quantum physics and have your teacher not understand the damned subject? To have not read and studied the text is irresponsible at best. And then for them to expect those of us who dont accept their delusion, to live by their teachings?

    Where in the HE77 Do they get off?

  139. Charles Alderson

    I love you Az.

  140. Jeremy

    I **love** Az too. There are very few comentators here @ TDF whose opinions seem to be noteworthy. Azilda is one of them.

    BTW Az, you are a great photographer. Just spent a good amount of time going through your sets, amazing work!

  141. N

    No religion know peace.

  142. ThisDarkChestOfWonders

    Another thing to consider is that many if not most poloticians, including the founding fathers, did not believe in god, but said they did so that people would trust them. I have known many people to have done this just in my personal everyday life. How many of those poloticians throughout history do you think really believed in that junk? They are the worlds best actors after all.... And they never lie of course. Lieing is a mortal sin, so how could all those good christian poloticians be saying anything but the truth? Silly theists, I'll never understand it... And i went to a catholic school for 8 years, so i know everything about being a christian. I turned 15ish one day long ago, and was like, wait a minute.... I'm kind of emberassed that it took that long. I look at grown adults and i have to wonder, how many of those lunatics really believe this nonsense.

  143. Xwendekar

    As I watched all these different people describing the tenets of their religions, I couldn't help making a wtf face. But simultaneously, I remembered how deeply convinced I was growing up that the 'sky daddy' (as one woman in this video awesomely called it) was just waiting to punish me for anything I said or did, or even worse for ever calling any of that nonsense into question. I remembered how hard it was to even admit to myself that I didn't believe, and even entertaining something like Pascal's Wager in my teens. And then years later, I found out just how many others there had been around me at that time who were experiencing the same struggle that I was. If any one of us in those years had had the courage to say our thoughts aloud, we would have found that weren't alone.

    More and more I'm convinced that there needs to be a concerted effort on the part of atheists to reach out to those who have their doubts but are afraid to voice them for whatever reason, to show them they are not alone.

  144. balding

    Thank brains for Athiests.

  145. balding

    There is NO proof.

  146. balding

    Because she is the g/dog?
    She has no balls.

  147. Guest

    Thank you...It's been a while since i got into my art...need to rebalance my inspiration. I am moving soon, looking for an artsy home feeling and a new camera.

  148. Linda

    This is an extremely intelligent argument. I would change one thing..."prove AND produce a god". They already think they've proven it.

  149. Guest

    Watch out, you may realize you are God yourself. The "other ones" just made up to make you believe in your lack of power. Don't go hurt yourself!

  150. Pysmythe

    Dude, that's clever.
    I like pithy! (lol)

  151. dewflirt

    I give in, what does your name mean please? :)

  152. Pysmythe

    Uh oh... I was afraid someone might ask that sooner or later...
    I'll tell you, because I don't want to be rude and ignore the request...
    It's Sindarin, one of Tolkien's Elvish languages.
    Sorry, but you asked... :)
    I'm vulgar, I know, but I gotta be me.

  153. Sieben Stern

    thank you, but are you saying that they have proven that god exists? Cause I've heard all the logical arguments an none of them prove anything.

  154. citalotus8

    People that really "believe" in god only believe in WHAT THEY WERE TOLD! aka their brainwashing! If your born in America good chance your christian if your born in Iran good chance your Islamic.There is no proof of god never has,never will. Religion is a form of slavery in it makes you forget today and hope for tomorrow or in religions case hope for an afterlife/death. Free your minds from belief and start living life as free as possible

  155. robertallen1

    Did it ever occur to you that both testaments are written by men? Now take it from there.

  156. gar champ

    I grew up in North Carolina. I left as soon as I graduated High School because the people there are all as dumb as rocks .. I will never go back to that dumb redneck place ... even to visit my parents graves.

  157. dewflirt

    There was I thinking it was an anagram, got 'thinner slob' and gave up :) I should have known better, naughty boy ;)

  158. DacoC

    Reminds me a lot of the early days of Nazism. What's next? Burning a synagogue, as the "Christian" Nazis did on November 9, 1938 in Kronenberg, Germany?

  159. robertallen1

    A mummer's parade of the wilfully ignorant, superstitious and downright dumb, together with their bellwethers and demagogues.

    For those who don't know, David Barton who is mentioned several times in this documentary is the David Irving and Kent Hovind of American history. I'm just waiting for him to sue for defamation so that he, like David Irving, can be exposed in court for the liar and phoney he is--talk about ill-gotten gains.

  160. KsDevil

    The worst action to take is to conceal everyones truth. This documentry takes a refreshing approach in letting people speak their minds, to be human and falible. Sometimes a person has to be allowed to say what they are thinking before they can take consideration of what they say and what they mean. Perhaps the opportunty for self doubt is the grestest gift one person can offer another.

  161. oilchng

    I have enjoyed/respected your comments for about a year or so. you are exactly right. the first few pages of the bible and the teachings of jesus tell us we are god... as in "let us make man in our on image" so, if I'm face to face with god I'm looking at myself... also ... "he that has seen me has seen the father" along with "as you have done unto another also have you done unto me".... meaning if I disrespect you then I dis jesus /dis god /dis myself ....all the same .... no difference.... can't wait for the thumpers to pile on this one.... i live very close to King and put up with blind faith every day .... too bad so many idiots have so much power over the ignorant sheeple... also would like to join the AZ fan club and view some of your pics ... peace be unto you .... the kingdom of heaven is within , as a very cool , misunderstood dude once said .

  162. Carlos Martinez Montes

    Why would native people want "an opportunity" to know who Jesus Christ was, I mean...they were waaay better before. Just sayin'. Same with my native Mexico, we were doing just fine before the invasion by europeans...just ask the Mayas.

  163. robertallen1

    Well, you know how these Catholics are.

  164. oilchng

    like stupid *** white men could have actually improved on the system already in place ... if i had a time machine i would have given the natives that Columbus met a bunch of compound bows and arrows .

  165. Guest

    I do not have a fan club but if you want to see my photographs, click on my name in blue, it will take you to my photo site. It works the same for anyone here who have attached a site to their TDF file.
    All religions point to the self as one seem to notice.

  166. oilchng

    thanks for reply , i liked your pics , good frame , nice composition , the one you have on the contact tab is very interesting ,are those ancient ruins or a current village ? and thanks for indulging an old noob ... if Charles Alderson wants to start your fan club I'll join .. nice day to you .

  167. Blake

    Dear political officials, when you took office you placed your hand on the Bible and swore to uphold the Constitution, you did not place your hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible.

  168. Austin Brown

    Really well done for a one man job. Ignorance is frightening. Imposing ignorance on others is a unconscionable. Radical Christianity flies in the face of historical record, science, and general common sense. Unfortunately, as more Americans give up their ability to think critically, you will find more victims of the radical religions whose message is so far from what was intended, that it can scarcely be said to representative of that ideology.

  169. Alfred Bhulai

    I did something like that too, but the universities also had their limitations, so I went to the One Teacher [Matt. 23:10] and found all the education I needed to know, viz., why the seminaries and universities were wrong.
    Now I am a social and intellectual misfit, but a happy one, with a sustainable lifestyle.

  170. gunk wretch

    Many of the founding fathers were Free Masons and so would have have sworn to respect and uphold everyones right to believe whatever religion they wanted, ultimately seeing them as equal.

    But lets say we know for a fact that the founding fathers wanted a Christian nation, a theocracy even like these Christians want, well any MODERN civilization which respects equality and democracy would change that to separate church and state to join the civilized world.

  171. LesterWise

    Blake you said "swear to uphold the Bible."

    No. They did not swear any oath to any biblical laws or standards. If they did, my first question would be: which laws? The bible is group of books and letters approved of at the Council of Trent but there is no standard of beliefs about these books. Hence the vast amount of denominations of Christianity.

    There is a documentary entitled The Faith of Founding Fathers by a Christian organization that deals with this very subject. A good 30-40 minutes of their film deals with David Barton and his bold and incredulous deceptions. He deliberately leaves quotes short and rarely mentions the context. I highly suggest this film to you and all Christians.

    As for being Masons, well yes in fact many of them were. This does goes with the common historical belief that the founders were mostly deist. Not religious Christians. BIG difference. Mason's allow everyone to be admitted as long as you believe in a God. Any God. A study in comparative religion would do many Christians so much good.

    They, the founding fathers, were also considered to be the enlightened scientific elitist of their generation so one would have to assume that they would have believed, like most scientist and the moderately educated of today, in the Theory of Evolution. I would bet that because of the philosophical and technological advances that leave the idea of the biblical miracles seeming as ridiculous as all the other myths in world history, it seems most likely the founding fathers would have distanced themselves away from people like this.

    Jefferson took a razor blade to the bible. Don't even get me started on Benjamin Franklin either...

    I love the part when they try to justify the bible saying slavery is O.K. It's a beautiful look at how they misuse logic and refuse to think for themselves.

  172. robertallen1

    Have you seen Chris Rodda's refutation of David Barton? Oddly enough, this, week, I enjoyed a pleasant and informative 90-minute telephone call with this self-educated lady.

    Your statement about the Council of Trent seems to imply that it established the current canon. This is inaccurate. The earliest canon seems to be that created by Origen in the 200's. By the time of the Synod of Hippo in 393 and the Councils of Carthage (397, 419), the latter presided over by St. Augustine, the canon had pretty much stabilized (cf Second Council of Tertulian (692)). In essence, the Council of Trent (1545) reinforced the canon established 1,000 years before.

    The problem with any canon is that the books selected were originally separate entities not intended to be grouped together, which accounts for myriad contradictions, inconsistencies and other deficiencies in both testaments. Incidentally, the best way to understand the reasons behind the selection of texts is to read both apocryphae.

    Indeed, most of the founding fathers were among the enlightened and knowledgeable men of their day--and there is a certain delightful impiousness about Jefferson and Franklin as well as Gouvenor Morris, one of the main draftsmen of the Constitution, which elevates the esteem in which they are held.

    Your thoughts?

  173. robertallen1


    Where would I find the documentary you cite?

  174. austin

    You are right, the word "modern" and "theocracy" don't really work. And yes, many were Masons. The interesting thing about Freemasonry is that it recognizes that in brotherhood, or in politics, or in society; a recognition of the power of a Deity is fine, but anything more muddies the water of kinship, politics, governance and even between religions themselves.(politically all Masons can be deemed Deists, nothing more) Religion is not for the political stage. It is not for governance. It is a meaning system of which anyone and everyone should be free to participate in as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others to participate in their own chosen meaning system. Once it crosses that line, it is, and should be forfeit to be expressed. This is a great example of why.

  175. Sharon Hutchinson

    Excellent post. Short and to the point or, shall we say, the root of a lot of our country's problems.

  176. Sharon Hutchinson

    Don't you get the impression that if these people thought they could get away with it, they would hang every atheist, agnostic or anyone who is not a christian? Don't they realize their wonderful bible is nothing but 1) a remnant of Bronze Age pseudo-history of an obscure tribe known as Hebrews coupled with a collection of poetry and ancient myths (old testament) and 2) a bunch of non-matching stories written about a guy who probably didn't even exist (new testament)?

    There is no relationship between the two testaments; that should be apparent to anyone who has actually muddled through this tedious book. Speaking of which, why wouldn't the Hebrews recognize their "savior" if he truly appeared? They would have been the first to identity him.

    I cannot believe that grown people actually believe these fairy tales. It's like they are afraid to face reality and want to hide behide the skirt (or robe) of their Sky Daddy. Worst of all, they want to shove these absurd beliefs down everybody's throat.

    Religion does poison everything. You were correct, Mr. Hitchins.

  177. Mark Pogue

    Poke fun at their religion, mock them...shame them.

  178. LesterWise

    The name of the doc. is The Hidden Faith of the Founding Fathers. It's on Youtube. It's produced by the same people who made The Secret History of America's Beginnings. They are full of some important less commonly known information. Although the maker's view of the meaning of the data is a tad slanted toward a rapture waiting end-time Christianity, please don't let that scare you away from watching. I am a card carrying atheist yet I still appreciate them for the grouping of rare facts about the founding of America.

    I am looking up Chris Rodda now. David Barton should have disclaimer stapled to his forehead.

    I was under the impression that the Council of Trent looked at the common letters and books that where being discussed at churches to determine their validity and create a common cannon. Like Marcion did in the 2nd century only more suited to their, the Council of Trent's, specific taste and political aspirations. Didn't they have the ultimate say on which books were to be allowed in what we consider the New Testament and how it was to be interpreted? Am I mistaken? This is a real question by the way, I'm really not sure. I know that many churches did use the same gospels but I thought some of the texts taught in a lot of other churches was considered heretical.

  179. robertallen1

    I'm sorry but the blurb turned me off, especially the bit about Biblical prophecy.

    As I explained, with respect to the canon, the Council of Trent basically gave its imprimatur to what had come before it. You might want to compare the Bible used in Russian Orthodox churches to that used in Western churches. I also suggest Bart Ehrman's book, "Lost Christianities."

  180. Qasim Djellouli

    Hold on.......Was this a doc that was supposed to prove that religion is separate from state in the american democratic society? Or was it a doc that attempted to sneakily propound atheist ideology and propaganda? Looks like the ones who are pointing fingers toward hypocrisy, are also pointing right back at themselves! Lets find the dumbest people that have opposing views and show them as representatives of that faith, and then find scholars that have our same ideology to argue against them. stupid waste of time video!

  181. e_pluribus_unum_USA_Motto

    ummm - we seem to agree. I did not say they were not spiritual - just not christian.
    You seem to agree on Jefferson - he clearly says he was not a christian in a letter to Benjamin Rush dated April 21, 1803. Adams - well - read John Adams - he may have been a closet Atheist - Just what I see when I read him. Lincoln - again we seem to agree - yes he became much more spiritual as the civil war went on and the death toll went up but he was not a christian. So I am not rewriting history, just stating evidence.

  182. Thomas Moore

    Is Obama lying when he refers to himself as a Christian?

  183. robertallen1

    Maybe not, but he's certainly lying when he refers to himself as a leader.

  184. Twistedinc

    One of the key elements present in all these people is SELFISHNESS

  185. robertallen1

    One of the key elements in everyone is selfishness.

  186. Neil Gillespie

    Instead of atheists spending time mocking people of faith, we need to try to understand what it is that makes people believe all this stuff. We need to gain a better understanding of why otherwise intelligent human beings can believe such absurdity. Maybe then we can try to help rid the world of the problem.

  187. over the edge

    @Neil Gillespie
    i would like to start by stating that what i am about to say is purely opinion on my part. many people of faith i come across seem rational and logical in most areas outside of faith but throw that out the window where religion is concerned. many of these people reject other religions and myths as ridiculous. they deny things like leprechauns,the loch ness, alien abductions and the like and see the irrationality of believing in something without proof. what makes people believe? well i would suspect most have their parents belief system and have never had the opportunity to not believe. they might not be able to accept that when they die that is it. maybe they haven't been exposed to answers outside the bible. or maybe they are just scared and need to believe that there is someone looking out for them. why mock them? again speaking only for myself. i am guilty of mocking on occasion but usually only after someone refuses to accept facts ,doesn't know what there own religious text state, are willfully ignorant ,quote mines or flat out lies. many of the religious i interact with on this site are so invested in there views that i realize that i have zero chance of changing their mind regardless of evidence. but if showing their foolishness and maybe mocking them helps someone outside of the argument but reading the comments see the idiocy of many believers then it is worth it.

  188. Lary9

    This film highlights the problem of a society which is full of bloviating ignoramuses who have been told since they were children in kindergarten that they are important and that their opinions matter as much as anybody else ...yet they have absolutely no justification for their smug, inflated self-esteem.
    If we were still a society based upon rational western values, these uneducated imbeciles would be valued accordingly and institutionalized in asylums or left homeless to die on urban street corners before they reproduce.

  189. Lary9

    PS: Just kidding...but I betcha believed me...didn't you?

  190. Malchik

    Politicians are spewing bigoted Christian hatred to garner popularity, so I assume the "dumbest people" are the majority.

  191. brenns21

    There is proof of God all around us, and you will find out where your going if you don't accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.. Your comment only proves ignorant minds do exist... Love God

  192. Achems_Razor


    There is no proof of any gods anywhere. Your Jesus even if he existed was just a little tiny carbon unit of no significance at all.

  193. okieok

    David Barton is a liar and a book was written about him by the title 'Liars for Jesus'. He forged quotes and assigned them to various founding Fathers and was called out by true historians to give the backup data on where he found these bogus quotes. He wrote a retraction on these quotes but hid it deep on his website. People want to hear lies and he sure delivers the goods. For those of us who have actually read the works of the founders, we know him for the insane liar he is. This should anger the christian community but like I said, they prefer to be lied to.

  194. robertallen1

    What is your proof--and it had better be scientific? How do you know all this? It sounds like it's your ignorance talking.

  195. robertallen1

    I have spoken to Chris Rodda, a lady most knowledgable on her subject--and you're certainly right about the Christian community or at least a large portion of it--but again, the same thing can be said about religion in general.

  196. okieok

    Nothing like the love of christians to fall back on the threat of an eternal burning hell. Any deity who could even think up such an unspeakable heinous torment should be the first one in. BTW, even the Essenes of the dead sea scrolls considered the OT god to be an evil demon and I surely agree.

    Once again as Thomas Paine wrote "serving a mean god makes a mean man."

  197. okieok

    You are correct but I deal mostly with the sad sack christian cult since I live amongst them. sigh..They claim this is a christian nation and I must agree since this nation leads the world in drug use, murder, pedophilia, abortion, teen pregnancy, psychotic drug use, prisons, school shootings etc.

    I won't go into detail of how our christian military march all over the globe killing and maiming innocent people in the name of god while the government goes in and makes them a third world poverty stricken slave nation to work for the big corps. The above horrors are the true fruits of christianity just like the RCC before them. If jesus did exist he would be puking his guts up by now. brenns21 is just the usual twisted product of a hateful religion and can't face the fact that the entire world is not in the same miserable box.

  198. robertallen1

    Did you read almost a week ago about this Turkish pianist who faces prison for insulting Islam? It's hard to imagine a concomittant act in this country (i.e., insulting "Jesus") subjecting a person to any sort of punishment. Therefore, although the preponderance of the U.S. population is composed of Christians (or at least those who claim to be), this can hardly be considered a Christian country--now tell that to the David Bartons, the Sara Palins, the Michele Bachmann's and the Pat Robertsons.

    The problem with the breens21's is that not only are they wilfully ignorant, but, like the teacher in "In God We Teach," desire to spread their ignorance throughout orbis terrarum using whatever they feel it takes, including, lying, distorting, cheating and all those other mephitic etceteras.

    Just for your information, the consensus of Biblical scholars is that the person now known as Jesus Christ did indeed exist, but that's as far as it goes. If you are interested, I heartily recommend "Did Jesus Exist" by Bart Ehrman, one of the top New Testament scholars in the nation and an agnostic bordering on atheist.

  199. okieok

    Yes I read about it and please tell me what kind of all powerful god needs petty little humans to defend his honor? That is akin to saying "my god can whip your god's butt". Religion was created to control groups of people and keep them at war so the rich could get richer. The poor fools haven't caught on to the ruse yet and it seems they never will.

    The apostate Paul taught it was ok to lie for the kingdom and the sheeple have been following his teaching ever since. Eucebious, an early church father taught the same thing. I guess Barton is just a product of his own religion and heritage of lying for god. Afterall, ye shall know them by their works.

    I know Ehrman's work well and would prefer he came on a little stronger but everyone has their own way. I live in the deep south amid the throng of nitwits and have learned to be blunt and unapologetic. If they feel they can cram this horse shit down the throats of others then I am prepared to return the favor. Jesus is a composite of several characters from what I have read. The Essenes had a leader called the teacher of righteousness who also taught many things that later ended up in the NT. If you study the way of life of Jesus and his followers they mimick the same way of life as the Essenes. That may explain why the Essenes are not mentioned at all in the bible. Robert Eisenman who was responsible for finally getting the church to release the scrolls after 60 years says that there was a group of men called 'dagger men' aka the sicari or sicariots. Judas was the leader of them and if you reverse the first two letters of his name 'iscariot' you have sicariot. That is an old trick the ancients used when writing and didn't want the unlearned to understand the true meaning. This explains Peter cutting off an ear of a soldier and Jesus telling them to sell their coats and buy swords. The land of Israel during that time was a hotbed of political and religious turmoil and the simple will never understand what it was all about.

    Glad to meet you. It is always nice to meet another thinker and truth seeker.

  200. Achems_Razor


    I have been following and reading your posts and have enjoyed them tremendously.

  201. robertallen1

    And let me return the compliment.

    I agree that it's just not Dr, Ehrman's nature to come on strongly and like you, I wish he did. I have watched several of his debates on You Tube and while his arguments are much stronger and certainly more learnéd and informed than his opponents', especially James Lane Craig, they have a tendency not to come out that way. In other words, he's too much of a gentleman, but the one thing that does come out is that he's passionate about what he does and what he does is worthy of the highest praise and respect. However, have you read "Did Jesus Exist?" If you haven't, I recommend that you do so. While it is not the most exciting of his works, his analyses of the various sources display the highest level of erudition and what's more, like his other books, it is accessible to the layman. After reading it, you might want to reconsider your conjecture about "Jesus" being a composite.

    Incidentally, Dr. Ehrman has been kind enough to respond to a number of questions I posed to him, especially on the language of the New Testament. Coincidentally, today I suggested to him via e-mail that he write a book on how the New Testament was compiled, why certain works were included, why others were omitted and especially why Revelations almost didn't make it, coupled with a treatment of other versions of the New Testament such as that used by the Eastern Orthodox Church. I would appreciate your opinion of such an idea. Well, so much for the Bible being the divine word of God.

  202. robertallen1

    Have you read any of the "Dialogues of the Gods" of Lucian? I suggest you do (The Lionel Casson translation which is the most readable and riproaring is still in print) and then compare them to the arguments of the religees of which both of us are all too conversant.

  203. robertallen1


    I forgot to ask you the same question I just asked Achem. Have you read any of the Dialogues of the Gods of Lucian? If not, let me offer an additional suggestion. You'll find that they bear a disquieting resemblance to the "intelligence" behind those like brenns2.

  204. okieok

    Likewise friend. It is good to know there are more and more people starting to wake up to all issues that are harmful to us all. Only the fearful will remain in the dark and never know what it is to truly live. Keep telling it like it is!

  205. okieok

    If he had just a touch of Hitchens that would be a debate to listen to! I guess it takes all types of personalities to move this world and get through to the masses.

  206. robertallen1

    Right. However, you have not answered my two questions: Have you read "Did Jesus Exist" by Dr. Ehrman and "Dialogues of the Gods?" by Lucian.

  207. okieok

    I did reply to you but I see a couple of my posts have not been added. I have read Did Jesus Exist and I found Dialogues of the Gods can be ordered online and I will be doing that. Thanks

  208. okieok

    You need to scroll down and see my long reply to you. I just realized it did get posted.

  209. robertallen1

    So what did you think of "Did Jesus Exist?" Also the best edition of Lucian is the one entitled "Satires of Lucian" translated by Lionel Casson. You can get it online for between a penny and a dollar.

    One more question. Perhaps I haven't received your answer, but what do you think of my idea to Dr. Ehrman for a book on the compilation of the New Testament? Don't you think it could be one more step towards enlightenment?

  210. robertallen1

    Found it, but somehow it never made it to my e-mail. The Feather volume sounds interesting and I will check it out.

    Somehow your comment on the Essenes triggered a thought: by failing to realize that the doctrines came first and the Bible second, religees, fundamentalists and the like put the cart before the horse.

  211. okieok

    The book was good and well researched but he never really concentrated on all the 'jesus' characters that really did exist ie: Jesus Bar Kocba, Jesus Ben Pandira(Talmud), JYeshua Noztri, not to mention all the cult leaders known as yushua, which is just another spelling for yeshua or Joshua. The area was rift with these leaders and many of them were put to death by Rome for sedition just as the Essene Teacher of Righteousness was.

    Casson's translation was the one I found for $3.00! Thanks for the info but will wait until I return from our family vacation to read it as I like to be able to have time to really enjoy a good book.

    The christ concept goes all the way back to ancient Egypt as well as babtism. Many scholars now believe as Josephus wrote that the jews were actually the Egyptian Hyksos Shepherd Kings who were thrown out of norther Egypt. Some even believe, as I do, that the bible characters are not really lost to history but were these Hyksos elite. Moses was either Ahkenaten or his high priest. That goes a long way explaining why the dead sea scrolls included the infamous copper scroll with the name Ahkenaten coded within it. It was a treasure map obviously of the hidden treasures of this Pharoah who was the first one to bring Monotheistic worship, just like Moses. Moses is not a proper name but always a suffix meaning 'son of' as in Tuthmosis, Akmosis etc. Also, is it not strange the names or dynasties of the Pharoahs are never mentioned in the OT just as the Essenes are completely missing in the NT? I just read an article written by a jewish researcher who thinks that the Zodakites mentioned in the NT may be the missing Essenes since they did have a group called just that. The dead sea scrolls were suppressed for so long it is just in the past 15 years that all translators worldwide were finally able to work with them. The RCC never had one intention of allowing them to become public but thankfully, the cat is coming out of the bag. The Essene War Scroll is eerily similar to the Book of the Revelation. The coincidences and similarities are endless.

    The great historian Manetho also records the 'jews' were Hyksos and he did not have a dog in the fight and none of his contemporaries ever voiced one refutation of his work.

    We can dig from now until we die and never get to the actual bottom of this deceit but I do love to try. Reading all the works of the so-called church fathers is an education in itself. That was one greedy bloody bunch of cons for the most part. It seems money and power has played a most important part in human deception and control from the very get-go. Not much has changed but you would think by now more people would get a clue.

  212. robertallen1

    The name "Jesus" or its many variants such as Joshua or Yeshua was apparently quite common at the time which explains the existence of the characters you mentioned and many more. However, it seems that Dr. Ehrman's purpose was merely to establish the existence of the man we know as "Jesus" without trying to identify him per se.

    The christ concept (or the concept of the anointed one) certainly goes back as far as literacy itself and obviously much further. However, I am skeptical of using Josephus, considering his background and obvious bias, not to mention the possible tampering with his texts.

    Have you seen "The Bible Unearthed" on TDF? In short, the documentary explains that despite all the archaeological digging in the area, not one artifact has been found to attest to the Exodus and considering the number of people involved (estimated by some at one million), something would have turned up. In addition, such a large number of people leaving Egypt would have had a deleterious effect on its economy. In all the Egyptian records we have from that period, not once is such an exodus mentioned, much less an economic downturn. Therefore, it seems that we can be certain that such an event ever took place.

    The etymology of the name "Moses" is uncertain. The explanation in Exodus 2:10 is a little too good and self-serving to be true. Second, as I understand it, the name had been around for quite some time and was as common as "Jesus" would later be. In the absence of hard evidence, I am skeptical of etymologies based solely on phonetic similarity. For example cleave meaning to bind together has no etymological relationship with cleave meaning to render asunder; it's merely that the two words, both from Anglo Saxon, were phonetically similar. Cf prince v. prints, but v. butt, tee v. tea v. T, mis as a prefix v. miss, ed as a suffice vs. a common nickname. Therefore, I seriously question the etymology you provided.

    As far the church fathers, Eusebius doesn't seem too bad--or at least I haven't found anything scandalous about him. He merely codified the nonsense of his time and if he practiced it, I don't believe it was in a malevolent way.

    All in all, people have no clue, especially the uneducated, wilfully or otherwise. That's one of the reasons I wish more people would read Dr. Ehrman's books. And speaking of Dr. Ehrman, you haven't answered my question as to what you think of my idea for a book on the compilation of the New Testament. There is certainly no one who is better equipped to write on this topic.

  213. okieok

    Many of the contemporaries of Josephus have quoted him and if his work was tampered with it had to have been during their lives. I wasn't there so I cannot say.

    I love The Bible Unearthed. One has to take note that these honest Jewish archaeologists are telling it like it is. People have dug up the middle east like rabid gophers for years trying to prove the bible and all of them ended up making fools of themselves. These two men are famous well respected in their field and the christian world tried to put a lid on their conclusions.

  214. robertallen1

    Even if his work had not been tampered with, considering his background and the position he held, I trust him about as much as I trust a religee,Christian or otherwise.

    Now what about those fools going off in search of Noah's ark?

    P.S. I guess I should give up trying to elicit an answer from you at to my question as to your opinion on a book by Dr. Ehrman on how the New Testament was compiled.

  215. okieok

    First, I never saw the question about a book. Second, every other post I make is held for moderation. Third, I am not on here 24/7 but try to respond asap. Fourth, the order the 'recent comments' appear is like looking through a haystack sometimes. Fifth, I don't always get an email notification. Sixth, you are too impatient.

  216. Achems_Razor


    Yes, sorry about the moderations, but please bear with us, when you put on a link has to be approved. Please read the "comment policy" if you have questions.

  217. okieok

    It's ok and not your fault. I was trying to let my buddy know I am doing the best I can with responses. I only get to come on here at certain times and make the best use of that time as I can.

  218. docoman

    I too have really enjoyed reading your posts on this. Thank you.
    Do you have any links (eg the article about the Nodakites of the NT may be the Essenes you mentioned, ect.) or more info. handy on why you think Moses was either Ahkenaten or his high priest?

  219. okieok

    My reply is on the way but is awaiting moderation due to links I enclosed.

  220. docoman

    Thanks for the info mate.

  221. brenns21

    I don't need scientific proof I have the proof of the earth and everything in it that God created, sorry your such an angry person, I know how to relieve you of that, accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and you will find peace my friend, Love God and Love others is your first step......God Bless you!

  222. brenns21

    And that's exactly the response someone would give who if they do not believe before the end, will certainly find out I am correct in what I say, I am a true believer because  God has done miracles in my life, He will also do miracles in your life if you believed in Him, I hope you find the peace you are searching for, being angry doesn't help you in your search for peace my friend, God Bless you...

  223. brenns21

    Hi, well I don't serve a mean God< I serve a loving and giving God, but He doesn't give to those who don't know Him or love Him back, even tho He still loves you, and I consider myself a true believer, because there are people who call themselves Christian and don't have clue what that measn, God Bless you and surely hope you find the peace you are searching for...

  224. robertallen1

    "There are people who call themselves Christian . . . . " I've heard this many times before with many applications--all specious.

    By the way, what makes someone like you with no use for scientific proof think you know anything?

  225. brenns21

    Actually God will not dam me, but thanks for trying, and if you had a clue about what you were talking about you might make sense, I am not a religious person, knowing God has nothing to do with religion, it's a faith beyond what I can see and knowing that God is with me because I am faithful to Him. In His Word, He tells us exactly what He wants from us, and to say God dam me means that you actually do believe there is a God, you just don't trust that He is there for you, but I tell you this, He IS there for you and He wants you believe in Him instead of satan as you do, anything that is not of God, satan has his hand in, so my prayer for you today is that you truly find God and what He can and will do for you if you trust and believe in Him. God Be with you my friend...

  226. brenns21

    God is not about science, He created everything because He said He did in His Word, I don't need a scientist to tell me there is a God, God tells me Himself, look around you, He created all the earth and every living being in it, even the devil (satan) knows there is a God, one true God who will never leave you nor forsake you those who believe in Him, I found that out that hard way, but I thank and praise God that He was with me, He just wants us to come back to Him and rebuke satan, satan is in control of this world, but God has control over him, and God will cast Him out in the end, God is waiting to see how many truly believe in Him, and I for one can believe and trust in no man or satan, I pray that you find your way my friend, God loves all of us, it is us who do not love Him as we should...

  227. brenns21

    I don't think so, I know so, I have seen many miracles in my life, the miracles I speak of  releasing me from the bondage of evil things, such as drugs and alcohol, always thinking I needed a man in my life, quiting smoking the instant I prayed to Him about it, taking away my depression, keeping me from committing suicide so that I could have this conversation with you, He taught me how to love my neighbor as myself, not to steal, or cheat, or lie anymore, and to believe in Him and trust Him with EVERYthing and He does answer prayers, He answers mine everyday, if I do my will instead of His, I can tell the difference, so I pray for His will everyday, sometimes many times a day depending on whats going on, but I always look to Him for guidence and trust that He will answer, alot of times those answers are not immediate because He wants me to waite for the answer because there is a lesson to be learned, and that can get frustrating, but I waite because I know that if I took whatever it was into my own hands, it would not turn out the way God would have wanted it done. It's faith beyond the relm of anything I could have ever imagined and now I can't imagine it any other way. My prayer for you today is that your eyes will be opened and God will show you His love, and I do hope you find peace, I am not your enemy and I don't want to be..God Bless you my friend..

  228. robertallen1

    Don't insult my intelligence by claiming you're not religious. By definition, anyone who believes in a supreme being is and as you admit that you cannot prove what you assert, you're the one who doesn't know what he is talking about.

    It's hard to believe that a grown man still believes in Satan. Do you also believe in the wicked witch of the west, the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and who knows what other mumbo jumbo?

    You admit that god is unknowable, yet you claim to know so much about him, especially his desires, and to compound this, like all religees, you expect everyone to blindly accept your groundless and fanciful ejaculations and treat you as if you actually know something.

  229. brenns21

    It's so increadibly sad that you feel the way you do, but again you do not know what you are talking about, it is not religion but a spiritual  relationship I have with God, and anyone can have one if they choose, and to find that relationship you have to read His Word, you can't have a dispute over something you are clueless of my friend, and just so you know I am not a grown man, but a woman with a heart for the Lord, and everything I am saying to you is truth, and if you read God's word you would also know it is true, I will continue to pray for you, it's so sad that parents don't teach their children about the creator, there is most certainly a devil, he is also in God's word, God threw him and 1/3 of the angels out of Heaven, and they have been roming the earth and creating kaos wherever they go, and people do follow them as you are doing, the devil is smart and cunning and he has you and you don't even know it, as I said I will pray that God finds favor for you. God Bless you my friend...

  230. brenns21

    The Word is the Bible, and if you read it you would know what I'm saying is true...If you don't know the Word of God (the Bible) then you can't fight against it, because you are presenting yourself as ignorant.

  231. brenns21

    Your funny, there is a God and there is a devil, and in the end, God will defeat him and you since you choose to follow him, satan (devil) is very cunning and has you right where he wants you, I will continue to pray for you...

  232. robertallen1

    " . . . everything I am saying to you is truth." Once again you expect us to categorically take the word of a grown woman who believes in Satan. I guess the drugs haven't totally worn off yet. Frankly, I think you're lying.

    Do you also believe that Zeus threw Hephaestus out of the Ether which caused him to limp? If you don't, then why do you believe that God threw Satan out of Heaven? Or is this something that you just "know" as you seem to "know" about everything in the "spiritual world?"

    Only someone who is clueless equates knowledge and reasoning with the devil and your "heart for the lord" is merely a euphemism for a mind clouded in antideluvian ignorance and superstition. Not only do you know nothing and want to know nothing, but you feel called upon to proselytize others into abandoning all thought and reasoning to descend into the tenebrous regions of your spiritual la-la land.

  233. Epicurus

    people like you make me very afraid for the future of this world.

  234. okieok

    You can stop with the pious 'holier than thou' disgusting act. I think most on this board know what they are dealing with. As for your 'prayers' for us, who the hell asked you for your hocus pocus voodoo **** in the first place. You would do just as well to dance barefoot around a fire while howling and slinging a dead chicken over your head. At least you would be somewhat entertaining. When I finally realized what all religions were about it was the most liberating day of my life. I have seen people like you all my life and you all are of the simplest intelligence to be found. You all parrot the same worthless meely mouth worthless **** and honestly expect intelligent people to buy into it. I guess misery does love company but you can take your imaginary bloody god of war and hate and stick him where the sun won't shine. Got it, m*ron?

    BTW, I did run into jayzuz today and he said he couldn't stand you. lol

  235. Epicurus

    so you believe there is a being that knows everything that will happen, has the power to do anything it wants and claims to be all moral (good)?

    however you also believe that that all powerful all knowing all good being also made humanity and satan and viruses and disease and hurricanes etc etc...

    wouldnt an all knowing all powerful all good god know how to make a universe that doesnt have so much evil in it?

    right now as we speak there are children dying from starvation and disease and children being think your god is all knowing all powerful and all good yet still lets that happen?

    come on. you have to be smarter than that. you have to realize that the whole god idea is just a made up story by people who lived 2000 years ago before they knew that germs existed or the earth was round or the earth wasnt the center of the universe....just look at how the bible views women!

    here is a little saying i want you to remember:


    think about it.

    you should have more respect for yourself and humanity than to buy into this fairy tale nonsense.

    and you should have more respect for me than trying to use psychological terrorism to make me believe like you do. if i should be afraid of your imaginary hell then you should fear the mormons imaginary hell or the muslims imaginary think those are as real as i think your hell is real. get a grip.

  236. Guest

    my bad...i was not on the doc i thought i was.

    (You're all off topic and you are doing exactly what this guy was doing in class.... giving us all your opinion on God....who cares?
    The topic is: Should religion be taught in school or not? Was this teacher right in doing so or not? Did the kid respond appropriately?

    You know that kind of stuff. Wonder what masturbation has to do with this doc.
    My question to you brenns21 is: Do you think it is appropriate to teach religion in public school knowing that there are people of all nationalities and origins within the school system?)

  237. Achems_Razor

    Az...your right, all off topic, and brenns21 is probably nothing but a troll, you are asking this troll if you think teaching religion in school is appropriate?? come on! same as asking a drunk if he wants another drink.

  238. Guest

    No, i am asking him if he thinks teaching religion in school is appropriate. As for me i know it isn't but teaching self worth should be mandatory.
    Many people who have a religious orientation do not think religion should be taught in public school, that's why it isn't as a rule.
    But now i am off topic, since this conversation should be happening on In God We Teach.

  239. brenns21

    I have much respect for myself and for God who created all things including satan who is in control of you, I will continue to pray for your lost soul, oh and if you read the Bible you will know why there are hail storms and hurricanes and tornados and disease that kill many people, yes God is in control of it all and it's all for His glory, but because you don't know His Word you have no idea about what you say, peace be with you my friend.

  240. robertallen1

    In case you didn't realize it, the Bible is not a science textbook, but again you have no respect for science, only your own ignorance which you desire to spread like syphilis--now get your god to cure that!

  241. Epicurus

    i have read the bible many times and probably know it better than you do.

    your behaviour is not that of a christian. it is that of a judging pharisee. you would be make jesus very ashamed to have someone like you speaking for him.

    you didnt respond to any of my questions.

    why does god allow all those terrible things to happen and why does he allow satan to exist?

    instead of just typing words that make you feel better psychologically how about actually using that brain you think god gave you and have an intellectual conversation?

  242. robertallen1

    You ask too much.

    As for Jesus being ashamed, who knows? Maybe he wouldn't be, which doesn't say much for him.

  243. brenns21

    It's obvious that God is not opening your eyes for whatever His reason, I am not Him so I wouldn't know, because God is incredibly good to me because I am faithful to Him, you are not a true believer so you wouldn't know that I am not a true Christian, I know God loves me, I am a happy person unlike you who is very angry and feels he must put people down and speak nasty to them, you can not hurt me by what you say, because you are not the One who will judge me, so what you say is meaningless, my point to you is I haven't been nasty to you, and we must judge between good and evil just in case you didn't know, it's obvious you don't, if you are not of God you are against Him, as you are, so satan controls your life, I am most certainly aloud to judge that, you should read the Bible a little closer or get someone who knows to tell you what it means, God Bless you.

  244. Epicurus

    im sorry exactly how have i said anything "nasty" to you? you have certainly been being nasty by telling people that because they dont believe the same stories you do that they are going to be burned for eternity...THAT IS NASTY.

    all im saying is that you are wrong, not that you will suffer and burn.

    you still havent told me why god allows babies to get molested and children to die of starvation or diseases. what is your explanation for all the suffering?

  245. crud4444

    There's been scientific theories (well, sociology) about the legitimation of authority through religion, and the connection between nationalism and religion.

    One could say that since America didn't have a mythology to back it up as a nation, no legends that would make the land they 'bought' from the natives legitimatily theirs by right of birth, tradition and 'this is the land of our ancestors' - they had to improvise and say: "This land was given to us by the Lord. ...I know, because he ...spoke to me and told me so! We're the most christian Christians of them all, we believe the most, so this is our revard!" Where other nations have legendary figures like King Arthur, Princ Lazar, Romul and so on, they had to get an invented tradition of "it's ours because we are the chosen people. We believe in the Lord and he blesses us with the right to this land."
    Funny, how Europe went from burning heretics (and heretic meant something like "of a different philosophical school of thought" in the original), to glaring at atheists, to secularism. Since the process is turned in America, and they're already glaring at atheists, do you suppose they'll be burning heretics in the end?

  246. robertallen1

    They would if they could.

    By the way, the word heretic comes from the Greek word to choose--i.e., heretics are those who have chosen wrongly.

  247. Harald Engen

    First ten minutes of the documentary resulted in at least 10 "facepalms" all when christians spoke!

  248. Harald Engen

    I'm sorry too the creator of this film, I will not be able too see it through! The anger that fills my body against religion, is just too much! I will try too see it some other time, but right now the first christian, muslim or jhovas vitness or all those other religious F***s I get on my door step will be kicked of my property so fast that their ass will hit them in the head as they land!

  249. robertallen1

    I would do the same. Notice, atheists and agnostics never go knocking on people's doors.

  250. crud4444

    Heresy, from 'heresis', in ancient-time Greek, according to a profesor of mine "...originated from the days of ancient philosopers, who would often actively go and seek heresies to their philosophies in order to have a debate..., a heresy was a good thing in comparison to 'doxis'..." not verbatim, but close enough. But, hey, could be he's wrong. I couldn't actually find the origin on the comparative linguistics department.

  251. B.b. Totten

    Review: I don't know what the film maker meant in his description. Low budget or mega billions, this is one heck of a damn fine film. Even handed, no narrator interjections to interpret points, veeeeerrrryy well put together in terms of segmenting the interviews into relevant argument-counter argument chunks. I want to see more from this guy. Kudos, brother.

    Impressions: Oh my God!!! (Pun somewhat intended) For some people on here, the overall point - i.e. minding your own business when it comes to spirituality or religion, and respecting other human beings in their exercise thereof, public or private - is completely lost. I too was frustrated and angered by these simple-minded people who make up their own facts and consider "What I think is . . ." to be a qualifying statement on history and law. I was particularly angered by the preacher who said she thought homosexuality was worse than slavery. I was waiting for some loon to say it was a choice next. And the other cow that said the conditions for slaves in the south were better than back in Africa. Bitch, watch Amistad. If you need your history spoon fed to you, Hollywood has got you covered. But I am a believer in God, a creator, a first motion/prime mover. What that may be, and what is its nature: I have no idea. I'm pretty sure it doesn't tell people to hate the things it creates, like members of the LGBT community, people of different skin pigments, non-theists, etc. In fact, it doesn't say much at all. It just kind of stays with you. It doesn't need you to sacrifice anything. It doesn't need to sacrifice its own heirs. And it doesn't need to dictate scripture and ritual to make sure we remember it. Why would a god need to prove itself to us? It IS god, it knows it's god (using the language loosely), and you know it's god. What's the need for an empirical argument? To whom are you trying to prove what? What does trying to prove the existence of something to someone else, whose existence you need no proof of for it to mean something to you, get you? And what does it get a god? Why does a god need followers? What does a god gain from a flag being waved, or a prayer being mumbled, or a life being ruined or taken? Essentially, what happens to the color of the sky when I say it's blue and you don't believe me? Nothing. It's still the sky, regardless of what color we think we see. And it doesn't get angry, or proud, or rewarding. It just goes on being the sky.

    But that's the theological argument. The legal and constitutional argument is, put simply, keep your faith (or lack thereof) in the realm of personal choice. The operative word here is PERSONAL, which is not to be taken as meaning private. It is a choice you and you alone, can and should, make yourself. NO ONE should have any authority or power of coercion over that choice. And no one should stop you from displaying that choice as long as it doesn't endanger anyone. And, btw, "protests" and "rallies" are nice words for "angry mob ready to riot" or "bunch of nut bags with a lot of ammunition and too much time on their hands."

    The sociological argument here is most important. Whatever your choice may be, we must show each other respect and interest, rather than fear and judgement. Maybe when people feel they've been understood they won't need the grand-standing and the protesting. Maybe people won't feel like their deep-seeded convictions are seen as trivial and juvenile. Maybe we'd feel better about our differences if we actually took the time to understand them. We can learn a lot from one another if we just stick out our hands and smile every so often. At least, that's the moral I gleaned from this great documentary. Hopefully I've done the film maker justice. I'll shut up now.

  252. rbadanon

    Satan should be capitalized

  253. B.b. Totten

    Yeah, but since satan doesn't exist, who are you hurting?


    Exodus 21:1-4 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself."

    Deuteronomy 15:12-18 "And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee.And when thou sendest him out free from thee, thou shalt not let him go away empty: Thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy floor, and out of thy winepress: of that wherewith the Lord thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him."

    Exodus 21:7 "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do."

    Regarding the beating and killing of slaves, the Book of Exodus contains laws regarding punishment for the one who kills the slave as well as injunctions to avoid injuring the eyes and teeth.

    Exodus 21:20-21 "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money."

    Exodus 21:26-27 "And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake."

    The Book of Leviticus prohibited the harsh ruling over other Israelites, but that slaves could be taken from the Gentiles.

    Leviticus 25:44-46 "Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour."

    Also, in Leviticus, a distinction is made between the hired servant and the slave.

    Leviticus 25:48-53 "After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him: Either his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself. And he shall reckon with him that bought him from the year that he was sold to him unto the year of jubilee: and the price of his sale shall be according unto the number of years, according to the time of an hired servant shall it be with him."

    Slaves were to undergo circumcision.

    Genesis 17:13 "He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."

    Genesis 17:27 "And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him."

    Female captives are considered spoils of war.

    Deuteronomy 21:10-14 "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her."

    Deuteronomy 20:14 "But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself"

    The punishment for sexual activity with a female slave who is engaged consisted of animal sacrifice in the Temple. There is no comment on sexual activity with one who is not married or engaged.

    Leviticus 19:20-22 "And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the Lord, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the Lord for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him."

    It is not permitted to return an escaped slave, nor was it permissable to "oppress" him.

    Deuteronomy 23:15-16 "Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee: He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him."

  255. Lin Frank

    what? making it a Christian community? wow...John Fischer in California would have a field day with this...he's a great Christian man who belives we can be IN the world but not of it...these folks don't want to be IN any world but theirs...they don't serve my God or Christ...sorry you don't. WWJD? well he wouldn't be forming that Christian community I can clue you in on that..

  256. Lin Frank

    How bout you guys move? I encourage you to bout that King North Carolina...move about 100 miles east right into that ocean.

  257. Lin Frank

    Whine whine Christians. Stop! Stop your whining you live in the most liberal/open to religious tolerance beliefs in the World. There isn't a Christian country anywhere. ANYWHERE>

  258. Lin Frank

    Established as a Christian nation? HOGWASH....there were diasists and all kinds of other RELIGIONS. Oh and talk about bout by those quaker/puritan protestants over the Catholics? We were headed to a "state church" with Puritanism but thank God for that seperation of church and state. That's what this is you know. Puritanism rearing it's ugly head.

  259. Lin Frank

    look these people on here are calling my president a muslim I'm calling them a m*ron and you won't let me post? where's your tolerance?

  260. Lin Frank

    your oath says' "so help me God"...that's a Christian as your oath...I said it ok. And I'm a vet. So help me Alah? Yes, he's considered God too...where Christ in that? Nada.

  261. Lin Frank

    I don't want anypart of your town or church. Leave me out and I'll serve the risen savior who knew now color, race or creed but was given FOR ALL> FOR ALLLLLLLL FOR ALLLLLL...

  262. Lin Frank

    He allows it but doesn't sanction it? This isn't heaven it's Earth. I go to prepare a place for you....can't you get it? He's preparing us a place. Not here...he/Jesus was open to all peoples...look we/Gentiles were grafted in...we were guests. These muslims are are you to treat guests? With respect and love not hatred or judgement.

  263. Lin Frank

    then explain slavery in the south?

  264. Lin Frank

    theo? IT's called a theocracy meaning God ruled not no theo won't get to play God. Dur?

  265. Lin Frank

    love it a first motion picture mover...God great're funny out to go on the circuit...good

  266. Lin Frank

    Here's a tip...leave the damnation to God. Ok? You just love people. Allright?

  267. Lin Frank

    It's a freakin' flag! Let it go...just put the American and POW flags up there and leave it. Let it go.

  268. Epicurus

    dont worry. im not damning anyone. i dont believe in god.

  269. Achems_Razor

    Why are you loading up this doc with your endless trolling? No one is interested.

  270. Lin Frank

    they want their cake and eat it we don't want government in our lives but boy the government sure should keep those ten commandments on that can't have both...

  271. robertallen1

    Why? The first five are religious and hence meaningless and the remaining five are only relative.

  272. aurinko

    As I am from Europe, this seems to me so absurd to see those christian funtamentalists speeking about America and how its founded by some fathers and so on...

    For first there were people who populaded all North America, Native Americans. Those who came there from Europe took land from them by blood and slaughter! And put them who survived into some reservates. And those people say its Gods country... yes they made it by force. Before that there was nature believes of the Natives and it was not so long ago. And its very sad to me to hear how the Natives are still treated in the States. So they say USA is christian country? Yes, people from Europe brought their religion couple hundred years ago..but how can it mean that christianity should be the one who rules? Why not some Navaho religion?

    And that woman (with many other things) got me feeling ill saying that the slavery in the south was ok, because the plantacy owners offered the slaves better living than in Africa. What?? Can somebody just say those things? Im white and from country wheres almost all population white. But I truely think nothing has been worse to the world than white man. This doc made me little bit shamed off christianity, though Im lutherian myself. How can they be so judgemental and rasist? That kind of way doesnt make the world a better place.

  273. robertallen1

    Remember, religious fundamentalism started in this country--and in the south. This has never been a Christian country and hopefully will never be.

    However, if by natives, you mean the American Indians, most of them have never had it so good--I mean they have tax-free businesses, etc. Also, as I understand it, they are free to leave the reservations anytime they choose.

    Also, please remember that one of the reasons for the success of the slave trade was that the tribal chiefs sold their own people.

  274. David Ewer

    I've only seen half so far and I'm captivated.

    Watch for such classic lines such as "Jesus probably wouldn't have liked torture...", or "I'd kill my child if God told me to..." and the unmissable Christian policy on 'illegal' immigrants - "deport 'em, and if they come back, break their ankles (snigger) ..."

    Such wisdom and humanity - and all from the self-styled Moral Majority. What's even more surreal is that the UK government are allowing crazies like these to open schools in England.

    I had a born-again bloke try to lay the Lord Jesus stuff on me in the sauna last week. He told me the planet was 6000 years old, all the top scientists know the Sun will soon burn out like a candle (astronomy by Elton John) and ex-nightclub-bouncers-turned-pastors were "curing cancer with prayer at our church."

    Would you kill for the God of Love?

  275. Maximilian Modin

    Are you seriously defending what that woman said about slavery? And with that kind of argument?

    It doesn't matter if the chiefs were partners in the triangle trades. How can you use that as an excuse?

  276. robertallen1

    Facts are facts, whether you like them or not.

  277. Maximilian Modin

    Yes I know that. I didn't say chiefs didn't sell their own people as I actually don't know if they did or not. What I said was that it's morally ignorant to excuse slavery with that statement. It's a lame and bad reasoning.

  278. robertallen1

    Show me where I used that fact to justify slavery. You need to learn to read.

    And, by the way, what is moral ignorance?

  279. Maximilian Modin

    As an answer to Aurinkos comment about what that woman said I interpreted it as an excuse. Please tell me if I'm wrong.

    Your answer looked like it somehow would make slavery less bad.

  280. robertallen1

    I suggest you read my answer again, especially the third paragraph, and tell me how you can consider it a justification for slavery--and by the way, you need to read up on the period before the Civil War, in particular why slavery did not take hold in the north.

  281. rpm3145

    Just listen to the fools in this film who speak of Jesus Christ, love, freedom, democracy, Christian Nation, Christian leaders, church, bill of rights, the Constitution ...... its enough to make one vomit. Clearly the story of Jesus in the Temple of money changers comes to mind.

    Ever notice how in this country those who most fervently support "Christian values" continue to lose their jobs, their sons and daughters to war while immigrants take over their towns as they struggle to continue to pay taxes.

  282. Niteowl588

    Not all of the persons on the Mayflower were Christians..have you people never heard of "The Saints and Strangers"..about half the people who came to Plymouth [and they did not land there] were not Christians at all, many of them came with idea of working for those who sponsered the trip for several years and getting to own their own land an homes after a period of work and time [6 years]. Some of the people who were Christians were NOT Puritans, the history of those who came is a fascinating story of many people and the making of New England..and that Thanksgiving deal probably never happened the way we have been told.
    If this nation was founded on the Colony's Christian principles..we have not come "The Times of Their Lives" by James Deetz if you want to see what this so called" Christian " Colony was all about.. just as many drunks, sex crimes, cheating and taking advantage of people as we see today. .

  283. robertallen1

    Right. And the traditional Thanksgiving feast could not have possibly occurred.

    P.S. You might find it to your advantage to register on this site.

  284. Mom

    Just FYI, we who believe in freedom of speech need to give the Christians that freedom as well, and to stop being so judgemental of them practicing their constitutional rights of freedom of expression. The soldier needs to realize the Christian also expresses his/her grief in their religion. Get over yourself and give them a break!

  285. robertallen1

    And just what are you referring to?

  286. Ann Rhodes

    I'm another Afghanistan veteran who opposes the use of sectarian religious imagery on public monuments, as do several of my friends who have also deployed. The sad thing is I come from a small southern town so I'd probably be subject to a protest like the veteran in the documentary.

  287. chernencoffa

    You know it's truly amazing. There is this thing in writing, called a period. See how that works? I suggest you try using them.

  288. chernencoffa

    Ten lines, three sentences. One of which is 6 words, and the other two seem like a rant. Counted the first one at 61 words wasn't about to count the second. I just can't take things like this seriously.

  289. Honey West

    The guy who says Barack Obama's as dumb as a friggen rock, dude, is exactly what's wrong with the country. Ignorance carrying a bible.

  290. Devon Griffiths

    If I was to be religious, I think I would keep it a secret - just between me and my god. I think that if a god needs me to go convince people, or try to obtain benefits and exceptional treatment for myself and my beliefs, or any of the other things that go along with communicating about it, then it cannot be a god. If it must be a social movement - then that must also be what it actually is, and nothing more.

    I do not believe that a true god would be something anyone could understand and certainly not anything anyone could define for others. Let alone pretend to speak in its name or pretend to know what it wants from people.

    In the Bible it says "where two or three have come together in my name, I am there among them." This is definitely not any sort of god that would ever appeal to me. The only god that would appeal to me is one whose presence is felt only when a person is in solitude, never among a crowd. A god that is strictly secret, and personal. One about whom no books could be written, and few things could be said. One whose presence is near when alone watching a storm, and who could never be further away than when one is in a church among the self-righteous who wear their "virtues" on their sleeve.

  291. Laura Cordova-James

    I am an atheist veteran. I guess some of these believers in North Carolina think I'm deluded into thinking that this is a democratic free nation and that the only way we can be really free is if we vote specific Christian people into government that exclude all other religions even at the cost of their own government turning on them some day. I was trained in Fort Jackson North Carolina. I was forced to go to Chapel and sing hymns and listen to sermon. When I chose not to go along with it, they made me do extra exercises with sleep deprivation and one commander was so sadistic, he forced me to go into the gas chamber three times instead of once like everyone else, even though my lungs collapsed and I had to go to the veterans hospital for observation. I'm beginning to think that these fundamentalists are right about North Carolina. That North Carolina is its own Christian nation and they do not tolerate any other religion or non belief. Even though my dog tags said, "no denomination" they sure as heck allowed my services to potentially die for our country, though. I could give my life but not have the right to ask that a specific religion not exclude me nor impose on me their beliefs at their whim. Don't they see the hypocrisy? Had I known I was being harassed, I could have complained about this to the right government channels at the time. But, I was young and naive and believed that this is what North Carolina is all about. Its own state but also, as if it was its own country imposing their own religion that the majority felt the world should embrace. - Their state is not like the rest of America! I wonder if they are getting away with this to this day in Fort Jackson? Do they still force all soldiers under training to attend Sunday Chapel?

  292. Laura Cordova-James

    I agree, as long as they don't vote against equality, a woman's right to choose, gay marriage, and pushing Creationism, Intelligent Design into the public classroom, sure they have a right to freedom of expression.

  293. Laura Cordova-James

    I had a woman in a hot tub try that on me in Desert Hot Springs. I stopped her in mid sentence, looked her straight in the eye and said, "Let's not go there, I've been there before, and its a complete turn off." - She changed the subject.

  294. Laura Cordova-James

    With the cooperation of those big ships that were not run by Africans, mind you!

  295. Sara Jasper

    I want to hear what all those May 21st people have to say about it today.

  296. Evelina Williams

    One of old family friend just returned from the US where he actually went in the late 70's or 80's can't remember I was a small child back then. He went there and switched from being an orthodox to Baptism. The first one is a religion the second one is a cult (even more dangerous for the society).

    I just pop in to say that he just couldn't help himself to NOT talk about his damn stupid and idiotic Baptist theories and how actually he was a God sent in so many situations. He literally is paranoiac in so many ways. He was on a visit, he wasn't supposed to talk about religion for like 8+ hours and every time I tried to change the subject he'd basically talk even louder to the point where my brain was BOILING.

    Anyone with an average IQ or above the average should understand once and for all that religions are just religions. (they're made to manipulate the masses, to sell and to make others rich). Cults are even worse! This old friend of our was actually baptized and given a job a place to live until he was comfortably living and now he's paying a monthly tribute to the baptist church (he was SOLD). How dumb can you be to be trapped in such a mess?

  297. robertallen1

    You might want to watch a documentary on You Tube entitled "Your Faith is a Joke" by Pat Condell.

  298. Evelina Williams

    I like the guy, watched the short version of the documentary, he's a smart and well educated, very logical explanations, kudos to him.

    Yep, most religious people are in a state of hypnosis and they need to awaken.

  299. mike

    hahah America was founded as a christian nation? George Washington was free mason ameica is and will always be a nation created and ruled by the illumanti

  300. Boo

    I am a devout Christian, and I must make a few comments about this documentary. I recognize that this probably isn't the right place to say these things since most people here seem to be atheist, so I probably won't get any feed back from the educated Christian community. First, doesn't the amount of devotion to that flag amount to idol worship in that community? People were threatening to physically harm people over a s*upid flag. Not to mention boycott businesses who didn't 'choose the right side.' It seemed to me that some were willing to put the whole town in financial jeopardy just to keep their flag on a monument meant for fallen soldiers. Who do we follow, Jesus Christ or a flag? Second, I was very confused and weirded out by the guy who said he was tired of 'turning the other cheek,' but he would kill his child in a heart beat if God asked him too. God has commended him to turn the other cheek. Why is he more than willing to follow God's order to kill his baby (which he wasn't commanded to do), but no longer willing to follow God's command to love his neighbor and turn the other cheek? He can't follow through with the commandments that God has given him, so I don't think he is in any position to say what he would do given a hypothetical command. It seems to me that whole town needs to get their priorities straight. It is sad that this town represents most of the Christians in this country :(

  301. Genkai

    YES!!!that feeling hit me really hard. where is the documentary or extra features with that?

  302. Genkai

    I'm a young black agnostic atheist who was born in the U.S.

    I can't speak for everyone here but I have a few things to say in reply to your comment. actually mainly this,...contrary to your first comment....... I feel that this is actually a great place to say those things. thanks for your thoughts.

  303. Genkai

    i have seen so many documentaries, i mean like, hundreds, and at least 28 of those on various religious topics. I say that to say this, this doc is awesome!!! There is a very strong balance of opinion from many sides and on top of all that the flag dispute is a great lead into a primer on secularism and even further on critical thinking and open-mindedness. I will watch this many more times, thanks yo

  304. crbowley

    Most of them never had it so good??? Listen to what you just said. Their land was taken from them, their religions were forcibly changed, they were forced onto reservations (mostly lands that were very inhospitable), they were lied to, cheated and exterminated. All in the name of progress? All so another people could populate and kill the land, the waters, and the air???
    The Native Americans now are a shell of what they used to be, they struggle through addictions, they struggle to try to live. Have you ever been on a reservation? Sub standard housing, extremely high unemployment (the kind people that surround the reservation do not take kindly to hiring those from the reservation), and poverty that would make your stomach turn if you were subjected to it.
    They are the originals, and are treated as if they are vermin, or unwanted guests. You need to look at your belief system and see that you are deeply rooted in racism and ignorance sir.

  305. robertallen1

    Have you seen any of those Native American gambling casinos recently--and they don't have to pay taxes on them? So who's the ignorant one?

  306. crbowley

    Sir, I am the product of one of those Native American reservations, yes I have seen the casinos. They are built on land that is autonomous of the USA. In laymans terms sir, that means the USA has no taxing authority, so of course they don't pay taxes.
    You sir are the ignorant one.

  307. robertallen1

    If you don't think it's a good deal, you are the ignorant one.

  308. crbowley

    Mr. Allen, no I don't believe the Native Americans have received a "good deal" from the Anglo Americans. I don't believe in any deal that the government has made with the Natives. They have all been lies. It's not in the governments authority to make any laws that can be emplaced ?? within sovereign native boundaries, therefore they cannot be taxed.

  309. robertallen1

    I wish I could open up a business and not be taxed--just like the church.

  310. Touchy

    It's interesting to see their confidence shake and their certainty erode as he brings up the topic of slavery. It goes to show that even the most seasoned theologian can be easily thrown off by something as simple as quoting their own scripture. How infallible can your God be if you can't explain the validity of a few sentences on paper?

  311. Tama Teora

    They have that freedom as long as it does not trample on another's freedom. This docu showed that they were indeed doing that. Where was the freedom of speech for the other religions or no religions? It's a sad day when "freedom" only belongs to one party. That's no freedom at all.

  312. Syrinx

    The pilgrims had absolutely nothing to do with the founding of the United States, which ocvured about 150 years after their arrival. The only similarity between our founders and the pilgrims is that they came to this continent FLEEING FROM nations founded upon Christianity and the Bible.

  313. 808localboy

    My head exploded when she said homosexuality is worse than slavery. These people are so blinded by religion....

  314. John Bento

    I think one of the most shocking things in this film is how similar the christians and muslims sound in their certainty.

  315. John Bento

    And, really, as a veteran of the gulf war, the US flag is enough. We fight for all Americans, not just those who believe in Jesus.

  316. jiggerj

    Even sadder is the fact that there's no such thing as an ALL-knowing, ALL-powerful, invisible being who is everywhere, who is perfect in every way, who was never born and will never die, and who lives in another dimension called heaven. And yet, people let this absurd fictional character run their lives. These religiously broken-minded believers are an embarrassment to the whole human race.

  317. jiggerj

    Eh, couldn't suffer the religious fruitcakes comments longer than 24 minutes. I will say this though: Like it or not Christianity is an organization. So, why should this group be banned from honoring those who gave their lives when no one would raise an eyebrow if McDonald's or Wendy's constructed a memorial there?

  318. coryn

    It seems pretty obvious that people brought up in a country that professes a belief in a deity, will believe in that deity they are taught about by their parents and friends, and not the ones they don't even know about. Americans grow up with a Christian church on every other corner, not a Jain church, or a Shinto church. Religion is a cultural artifact, and each different culture creates their own myths and deities.

    "There is no antidote for religion mixed with mother's milk." -- Robert Ingersoll

  319. coryn

    Right, except you don't fight for me. Richard Cheney says the U.S. needs oil so we're over there killing grandmothers and uncles, children and invalids and old men, and you justify it with flags and gods. Humans stopped evolving thousands of years ago , and we're still killing each other. How about thinking instead of simply reacting? Where is any proof of any deity? And explain to me how one god could start three religions, Christianity, Judaism and Islam, writing three different 'holy' books which contradict each other, telling each who to kill and why. To go out and kill for Cheney or Bush or Rumsfeld is to be seriously mislead, and the world will remind us of it for sure.......

  320. coryn

    Christianity will continue to splinter into smaller groups and sects because people simply can't agree upon what doesn't exist, i.e. deities, angels, demons, etc., and they will kill others because their Holy Book and beliefs are the 'correct' ones. And often the emigrants from England were convicts or other undesirables, debtors and such. Read of the Thirty Years War to learn how peaceful Christians can be.

  321. CARain

    The atheist remarks are horrible. The Christian ones aren't too much better. It appears that nobody reads the counter-perspective literature of their worldviews. If you're an Atheist, pick up some writing by JP Moreland, Ravi Zacharias or John Lennox. If you're a believer, read books by Dawkins, Hitchens & Harris. Get FULLY educated before you comment on a subject. Otherwise, you sound ridiculous.

  322. lodiza

    Time to bring back the lions...

  323. Maxine Godfrey

    "The chickens is organised, Mrs. Tweedy,"

  324. A Free America

    About 22% of our country’s 5.2 million Native Americans live on tribal lands (2010 U.S. Census). Living conditions on the reservations have been cited as "comparable to Third World," (May 5 2004, Gallup Independent). It is impossible to succinctly describe the many factors that have contributed to the challenges that Native America faces today, but the following facts about the most pressing issues of economics, health, and housing give a hint of what life is like for many first Americans.

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