The Zen Mind
Zen is a school of Mahayana Buddhism. The Japanese word Zen is derived from the Chinese word Chán, which in turn is derived from the Sanskrit word dhyana, which means meditation or meditative state.
Zen emphasizes experiential prajna in the attainment of enlightenment. As such, it de-emphasizes theoretical knowledge in favor of direct realization through meditation and dharma practice.
The teachings of Zen include various sources of Mahayana thought, including the Prajnaparamita literature and the teachings of the Yogacara and Tathagatagarbha schools.
The emergence of Zen as a distinct school of Buddhism was first documented in China in the 7th century CE. From China, Zen spread south to Vietnam, and east to Korea and Japan. As a matter of tradition, the establishment of Zen is credited to the South Indian prince-turned-monk Bodhidharma, who came to China to teach a special transmission outside scriptures, not founded on words or letters.
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@AntiTheist666
I have enjoyed this exchange immensely. It’s caused me to reflect and revisit other segments of time. The topics, though random, reveal an evolution of the subject in discussion. Moving back from Zen and the Tao to Tibetan Buddhism and Yoga/Hindu interpretations back to Zoroaster (note Zoroaster may go back to a pre-Egyptian era) at the time Indo-Iranian split bringing us to the Platonists, the Hermetic and Christian expressions, the Semitics and then the Egyptian or Sumerian expressions (it’s arguable which of the last two were first) and finally the Animists and their Shamans. That covers the Organic back through the Drama and the beginnings of the Constructionists in Worldviews.
European philosophers of the Constructionists view being less than satisfied intersect near the Hindu and Buddhist views and modern Psychology has its roots. That’s quite a ride.
All have their meditations. All have both physical and mental types. All meditations have the same theater. All the metaphysics use symbols from within their cultures but all point to a mind state. All have levels describing mind states. All have an idea as to the final state, the same state with different labels. It’s like a map of the same city but each road has a number of names. It’s no wonder why the exit is hard to find!!
A playful thought….. (I’ll have to work on a bit)
A (sort of) formula comes to mind. V is a function of R and M where R is resistance (physical or mental - of malleable properties). M is momentum (physical or mental energy - at some [to be discovered] velocity). V is vibration (the manifestation that composes the illusion).
Your conversation reminds me of the movie My Diner With Andre, same subject of life but totally different use of words.
Reminds me also of an interesting tennis match where the ball flows from one court to the other with a perfect hit as if there were no net.
1i
@Philio
Unringing the bell and unasking the question.
This party animal was at huge and fairly riotous party many years ago when I went out into the garden for some fresh air. As I walked away from the house I was surprised to see a group of approx 20 people in a rough circle around 2 Buddhist monks. I didn’t join them, I just observed for a while, enjoying the contrast of environments. There was a bonfire burning at the far end of the garden.
From what had been going on in the house I thought that the people might be a bit of a handful for the monks and quite a test for them but was pleasantly surprised at how well behaved they were. (Apart from a few almost rude questions - though there was a grinning devil on my shoulder also.) As I looked from the house to garden I thought this looks a bit surreal, it was like Dante’s Inferno meets Stonehenge, although I was undoubtedly squiffy at the time I thought was in control. I distinctly remember thinking keep your ears open you might learn something. The Party inside the house had been completely forgotten.
I kid you not; I swear to god, there seemed to be a golden light around this Buddhists face. His assured stance and confident smile lit the place up. As I listened I was impressed with his quick, courteous, thoughtful and to the point answers. This was in the face of some extremely banal questions, I felt embarrassed for them but the monks were serene in their confidence. I listened for some time and joined them when most of the others had left. I hadn’t learnt anything yet. Or so I thought at the time.
About 6 of us chatted for hours about various philosophical subjects. While from the onset trying to keep an open mind to their Buddhist views my stance was - convince me. Party animal Ego man is my best side and you’re telling me to give it up? Well we didn’t resolve anything and as you’ll have no doubt guessed I wasn’t convinced. As we were leaving the one of the monks mentioned that I’d asked a lot of questions and enquired if I had learnt anything? I was polite and said yes. I thought so he said with that knowing smile. Sometimes more can be learnt when one removes questions and just consider answers. He said it’s the healthier alternative to seeking truth as our questions can become a cross to bear or a shield to hide behind. With that he left and I stood there quite puzzled as to what he meant. It felt like he had seen right through me... I pondered on that for quite some time before I understood that what the monk said was true.
Sorry for the ramble, I hope you understand what I’m trying to say, you see through me also it seems.
Now I’m laughing. You parroted much of what I just wrote. I get a bang out of synchronicity.
@Philio
Zen and the Art of MoFo Maintenance.
The slayer or dark destroyer as I call him may be the toughest of all demons to kill/chains to break. Your words remind me of what Pirsig said in ZMM. That the Buddha you find in the temple high amongst the mountains is the same one that you carried up there from the valley below. The same is true for demons.
Do we need enmity? What comes before the question? I try to claim I’ve ditched the selfish ego and yet so much evidence points to me still clinging to it. I might have indulged myself here in the past with a little personal condemnation but now I smile at my frustrated hypocrisy and move on.
No experience is ever wasted, there is always something new to learn. Our quest for understanding is a long hard road and we may never reach our destination but it’s all about the journey, including all the wrong turns, dead ends and breakdowns. Every now and then though you meet a fellow traveller who illuminates the way and makes the journey all the more enjoyable. Until the next time my well travelled friend, adieu.
@AntiTheist666
“The problem I have (amongst many) is I don’t feel worthy of such concern.”
Your comments are deeply appreciated. Take this statement to heart; there are none that are unworthy!! We are all in the same boat but perceive it as our own personal vessel. Think on this….. The concern exhibited toward you benefits me through you. We, you see, are all one. (Give and it will be given unto you is not just a platitude. It matters not who said it.)
You did cause me to read over prior posts and there is not much left to be stated only, possibly, further explanation. I am encouraged (believe it or not) by your post. The sense of your tension is apparent. That is not an undesired state. That tension is raw energy. See if the following is of any help.
As you proceed through each personal chapter, the simple recognition of each state is a small release. See each release is like a “trickle charge”. IF left alone each little charge of energy accumulates and build in potential. When the accumulative energy of the “releases” equals the energy of the “cause”, the cause is nullified. This is how the “Slayer is Slain”. It is, so to speak, the physics of it. Involvement, in any form, will use up that trickle charge.
It works like a sneeze. First there is a tickle in the nose. The tickle becomes stronger until its stimulus provokes an autonomic reaction. What happens when you try to stop a sneeze? That energy has to go somewhere. It’s best to just let it out and save your ear drums possible harm.
This is exactly how Kundalini Yoga works. With each meditation the energy has the possibility of building within the coils of the snake (Kundalini). When the proper state occurs (notice I didn’t say is achieved) the head of the snake passes through each succeeding Chakra without obstruction.
A bit of a hammering may result from some on this site with this next statement. Here is a little known (or admitted) factoid. Most Western practitioners never get beyond the first three Chakras, Muladhara (Life), Swadhisthana (Order) and Manipuri (Wisdom). It is just believed to be so because the ego wants to achieve. The need for achievement is the biggest ploy in every system. Just do and accept what you see.
With a little thought, similarities are found in all systems. For Kabbalah the loci are Malkuth (where the coils rest in a zero energy state), the next three are Yesod (life or sexual energy, unites the other two), Hod (the most telling translation is submission) and Netzah (translation into action).
A repetitive cycle will continue in these loci until there is balance. The cycle is, the encounter, recognize balance and ascend or involvement and participation followed by repetition within some part of the cycle.
In Yoga it is Anahata ("unhurt" "un-struck [like a bell]" or "unbeaten” [like a drum]) and in Kabbalah it is Tiphereth (Beauty - It does not adjudicate contrasts and turn everything gray; rather, beauty integrates both black and white into a picture of depth).
They are statements of balance. So how will you know when a break through occurs? I can’t remember where I came across this but “Nothing is left to you at that moment but to burst out into a loud laugh”. This still happens to me on occasion and is thoroughly enjoyable. It could also be a simple chuckle by you at you. The little chuckle is a little realization. There is another that catches you by surprise to a depth I can’t describe other than you are thoroughly overwhelmed.
Resist personal condemnation. You’re doing just fine. Here is a secret for you. Think of what you judge as your worst habitual trait. Firstly, notice the term habitual. It denotes a subconscious or unconscious drive. Its primary property is (emotional) energy. Energy in any form is neither “good nor bad”. This may be a little difficult to wrap your head around but your worst habit may in essence be your best trait. It is simply a matter of application and point of view.
From a neutral position both energy poles have potential, +X on one pole then –X on the other. When measured (observed), one to the other, they double in potential. The polar difference happens when leads of the measuring device are switched!!!!! You just so happen to be the measuring device.
the little things keep the big things fed...
" It turns out that roughly 70% of the Universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 25%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the Universe. Come to think of it, maybe it shouldn't be called "normal" matter at all, since it is such a small fraction of the Universe."
Copied from Nasa Astrophysics page
It is almost accepted that there is dark matter and dark energy surrounding us, the cosmological scientific world is willing to say yes and is also willing to unite in trying to figure what exactly is dark matter, dark energy.
As an individual, i have accepted a long time ago that my reality is composed of mainly dark matter and dark energy and that my body is only a very small percentage of who i am. Why would that not be for personal reality but ok for universal reality?
What is possible for the micro must be possible for the macro? Especially if someone says so, lives so, embodies so, and explores so...many are.
The be a zen mind means to connect to dark forces (not meaning negative but hidden) within.
1i
A friend of mine and i used to accompany each other on what we called "Journeys".
It would start with one of us with eyes closed, sitting or laying down. I will describe as if i was the person being taken.
...I would first imagine myself next to a tree in front of a river. I would let the noise of the river be present, i would see the surrounding, i would feel and smell the air. I would walk towards the river, touch the water and then cross the river. From there i would let my imagination take me on a journey... i would describe what i saw in a few phrases and then my friend would take me further on, describing what he saw with a few phrases and then alternating back and forth between the two of us. There was no limitation of body mouvement, no limitation of situation as in a dream. We would travel with our mind until i was returned to the tree, sometimes a journey could last 30 minutes.
It was always a superb feeling upon return.
az
Arrived. Post in reply for your arrival
empty mind as often as you remember to do so; breathe.
AHAHAHAHAHA Vlatko I couldn't stop laughing about the cat, thanks for reminding me of that one! One of the most amazing introductions I could have asked for to Zen was reading some of the works of Victor Sogen Hori in first year religion studies. He explains that tradition in Zen is the continuous rediscovery of tradition. It made completely no sense to me for the longest time, until it clicked ... the tradition is efficiency in living and in discovering the true nature of the self, and so the tradition must be continuous rediscovered. Anyway ... I can't do the topic justice here, but the cat shows how important the zen tradition is and just how easily it can be lost :)
For the record ... getting hit with a stick (referred to as keisaku or kyosaku ... literally 'warning stick') while meditating sounds bad, but it really is not as bad it is sounds. In Soto Zen you will only be struck as requested, but Rinzai are the buggers you have to look out for! They will wack you one if you look sleepy :D Honestly tho, they target the muscle area between the shoulders, and most schools do not use the stinging sticks anymore. Its like a mild charlie horse thump to wake you up and keep you attentive and vigilant in your practice. Just as some commenters above mentioned getting sleepy while breath counting ... so it was that monks decided tea and hitting each other with sticks was a good discipline hah :D
Re: lotus position that is just not possible for me :( But I am not the first and there are workarounds.
Anyway this docu is not working at the moment :/
Lotus position is very comfortable once you get used to it. I almost laughed when they said it "may hurt". Got a yoga book from a library under 18 and I got so comfy with it that I have fallen asleep in full lotus with my chest laid on my legs. Right now I'm sitting half and go back and forth with legs all day. The only problem is that it makes sitting in chairs awkward once you get used to doing it all the time. Being straight legged is now uncomfortable to me and in office meetings or in cubes I bring my legs up even in those chairs lol So, don't get used to it or you'll be hooked too.
There is a weird position you can get good rest in if you like the feeling of this even in sleep and I've found myself waking up or tossing in it. Start to lay on your belly, keep your left leg straight and your right leg on a knee. Drop all the way down keeping the left leg straight, then position your right leg under you across to your left thigh, foot base right about where your hips are but in that crease and on the belly flat. Tada - very comfy to sleep. Don't know if it's an existing position but sure feels natural if you sit lotus often.
Beautiful and soothing, with good insights and a peaceful atmosphere
Yes Vlatko, for me, this reflects the beginning and development of many religions that are entrenched in dogma. The original message is lost to a preoccupation with the stories and ideas originally created to convey and comprehend the incomprehensible.
"Ask of those who have attained God; all speak the same word ... All the enlightened have left one message; ... it is only those in the midst of their journey who hold diverse opinions." - Dadu
Thank you for creating this wonderful website, by the way.
@silkop: You seem to be making judgements about something that your comments reveal you actually know
little about.
You say: "This system of thought prompts you to proactively seek meaning in contexts where no meaning is
necessary".
This, however, is quite the opposite of Zen philosophy. For Zen, words and meaning are the very things that stand in the way of our 'original nature'. The Zen and Chan traditions have long argued that book learning, and holding too much to the scriptures, are obstacles to awakening. In fact, one of Chan's most highly regarded patriarch's, Hui Neng, was famously illiterate.
This is why Koan's are completely non-sensical. They have no logical meaning, for the very fact that they are intended to disrupt and break through the conditioned, rational/logical mind. The experience of awakening is not something that can be thought about, it can only be realised once our attachment to thought, as a means of mediating our experience of reality, has stopped, leaving only a direct experience of reality, inasmuch as our senses can allow. How can there be room for creation of meaning here? If we were to say that true nature is like the sun, words, thoughts, meaning, beliefs, are like the clouds that obscure it.
Hui Neng was often questioned how to attain awakening, and he would reply, "stop dwelling on what is good or bad, right or wrong, and see now your original face before your mother and father were born!" When we divide reality into separate phenomena, we then apply positive and negative (and sometimes neutral) attributes to those different phenomena, and in doing so we begin to create meaning. We are creating a mind-made model of reality, with which we become occupied, yet this model is nothing but a shadow of the truth.
Our notions of 'self' and 'other', of 'self' in relation to the rest of reality, are the result of this habitual process. It is only once we have dropped these deeply ingrained ideas that our 'true self' (to use your own words), and its true relationship with the rest of reality, is revealed.
And it is the very fact that these patterns of thought and behaviour are so deeply ingrained that Zen monks, as you describe it, "chant in strange languages, hold your hands together, walk in circles, sit in Lotos position, imagine things." These are simply methods that have been discovered, over thousand of years of experiment and practice, to have been effective in achieving the process awakening. Just as the laborious process of pumping iron has been discovered to build muscle, or that applying heat to a flask filled with water eventually turns it into a gas. To overcome such ingrained habit requires a disciplined, concerted effort and these are the methods that these particular groups of people in the East have found useful.
That is not to say that these methods are the only way to attain awakening, just as there are many different ways to boil water (kettle, bunsen burner, microwave etc.), all of which work well. Many different traditions (particularly their mystic sects) across the world have also found different ways to achieve the same process, whether through prayer (christianity), dance (sufi), drumming (native American), yoga (hindu), Qi Gong (daoism), tantric sex etc. On the surface, these practices might look different, but the underlying process is the same, just as the underlying process of boiling water, whether via kettle or microwave, involves the transformation of energy. These diverse methods of awakening are fundamentally about mental discipline and concentration. They are different forms of meditation, which aid in breaking through the conditioned preoccupation with meaning and concept, to a direct experience of the present moment - and ultimately this leads, not to feeling nice and fluffy, but to freedom. Ultimate freedom.
If you found freedom beyond anything you have ever felt in your life, would you not also try to tell others how to find it? How you found it?
Silkop has some potent views that I really like. The way I see it, these monks philosophy is just another take in the unsolvable riddle that Life is…if you like their flavor, go ahead, get hammered on the back while sitting with your eyes closed & be happy…why not?
Beautiful!!! Very nice!!! Thank you for sharing...
@ Reasons voice
Thanks for your concern, I did develope an infection. I had a temp of 101 and felt horrible. I went to the hospital and we have it under control. Thanks again to you and everyone that has expressed concern and given advise, you guys are great.
maybe the pope should try this.... been a catholic for many a year and as an alter boy with no trouble from their minority that do perpetrate , I have excused myself from religion and look at the more important things in life now like having a balance and understanding and allowing myself to live with out the stress.Yes this can work, you cant say till you try...
@ez2b12: Been busy last few days. Sory to hear about the bike wreck. Definately keep an eye on it and watch you other health. A burn site is a free pass into you for infection so if ya feel run down get to a doc. Hearing yer from the SE US explains alot as to your stance on religion they are a bit much down there.
@WP88: Zen is nothing like most other religions as it is one of self-actualization and introspection. For the purpose of a documentary of course the visited more central worship locations like monesteries. However most practicers do so in their own home with no chanting or bells. Just simple meditation.
@ Jans
Excuse us for having a conversation, geesh!! I guess this is a place to remark about the documentary so we are off topic, sorry. In our defense it did start out being about the documentary, we just drifted. Any way I'll relinquish the floor to you now Jan, take it away.
@ Silkop
Thanks for the conversation, very interesting stuff. You sound like you are doing well and enjoying yourself, good luck. I have every confidence things will be fine for me.
@silkop @ez2b12.. just get a room already! :P
@WP88
“The religion of the future should transcend a personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both natural and spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description… If ever there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism.” – Einstein.
@ez2b12
Generally speaking, getting to know the right (read: older, wealthy and influential) people and making yourself useful to them is a good way to advance economically, if you can avoid getting exploited in the process. What's exciting about today's world is that perhaps for the first time in history in certain types of (white-collar) jobs it is possible to "meet" those people without even travelling too much, sell oneself globally and to effectively telework.
Educational degrees matter, but connections, skills and initiative matter more. For example, I came to Germany from Eastern Europe (lower-middle class white-collar family). I knew noone here (though I spoke German well, which has always been sort of hobby of mine... as a kid I got inspired by Hitler's speeches hehe). I was able to finance my studies and more by teleworking as a programmer for a US headhunter. This opportunity I found with no references through web surfing. Back then it was the golden era of dot-coms and every cheap promising programmer was getting hired (unlike today). I then joined a German research institute (excellent grades helped a lot), my chief motivation being to keep myself from being kicked out to my (poorer) home country, but also to advance in status. I failed (no PhD for me), but in the meantime my homeland joined the EU, so I decided to get back into freelancing (now all legal and just as enjoyable as before). Currently I'm earning some very respectable income working from home for a local (German) utility company. Directly reporting to my former co-worker (who does happen to have a PhD, hmm). The guy who signed the contract is a neighbor and friend of a professor who is a big fish at my former employer.
There's plenty of work, so I'm even trying to outsource some, but it's difficult because getting it out of your brain is almost as time-intensive as doing it yourself. And the subcontractors I've found so far failed to impress me. The point is I'd be happy to employ and help someone from a poor foreign country move up the ladder. So I'm sort trying to reinforce my own theory of social advancement, like those people who helped me before (I guess).
I also notice that my early career has been more driven by circumstances and luck than by any sort of planning ahead. This is actually quite cruel: as a young person from a lower class family you typically get no useful career advice from your family or peers whatsoever. If you aren't lucky enough to do research on your own, move yourself into different environments, discover different attitudes and markets, you will end up in the same unfavorable social situation as your parents. This is why I expressed surprise by your reference to being "poor" because it seems to me that you are already past that isolation stage, and success is now more likely to follow.
To bring this comment back on topic, I must note that the ancient Zen philosophy doesn't seem to directly address anything of the above. Instead it seems to tell you that those things don't matter. So I second your previous remark that "looking for your true self" - by sitting around and thinking about answers to silly koans - is a pastime for spoiled people, a perverse luxury even. However, I imagine there are also many not-so-well-off people who will become attracted to such philosophies or ideologies and get persuaded that their foremost problem in life is not "making a buck". But in reality even a Zen monk enjoys his selfless meditations better in a nice garden surronded by friends and without a hungry stomach. I suspect he might even prefer the occasional "back-breaking" sidewalk-polishing run from an oh-so-comfortable 8 hour day at the office (or working in the field, for that matter).