Cults: Dangerous Devotion

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Storyline

Cults: Dangerous DevotionThe dark and dangerous world of cults has long been a source of both fascination and fear. What attracts followers to cults and, more importantly, what makes them stay?

In this special feature-length documentary, journey behind closed doors into a secret world where faith and devotion give way to desperation and despair.

From the bizarre prophecies of Charles Manson to the desperate paranoia of Jim Jones, cult leaders draw followers into worlds of power, obsession, and sometimes death.

Hear from parents who have lost their children to cults and travel back in time to examine how cults have been attracting devotees throughout history.

Featuring archival footage and interviews with renowned scholars, survivors, and faithful adherents, CULTS: DANGEROUS DEVOTION is an eye-opening examination of a hidden world few people will ever see.

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Comments and User Reviews

  • Mathew

    Ill Bill - Cult Leader

  • Mathew

    Non Phixion - Cult Leader

  • Ez

    Crazy Charlie, alright!! This dude has always tripped me out. I just don't see the electric charisma he supposedly possesses. I don't think I would follow this guy into water, much less see him as a god or something. But, LSD is a very suggestive drug if the right person is leading your trip. I have seen alcoholics, cocain addicts, meth heads all cured by the right person leading their experiance on LSD. Some psychologists did some experiments at one time trying to cure alcoholism and had great success rates. Since it is not addictive the people cured had no desire to repeat the experience in an abusive way. I'm sure they used it in the future for spiritual guidance and psychological self manipulation, but not for kicks.

    Of course the government was only interested in it as a truth serum, a way to induce violent bahavior, or a way to confuse the enemy during battle. Since they had no luck with this they abandoned the stuff. Once it became a staple of the sixties counter culture its day was done. What a waste, science should reopen expermentation with this drug. It has vast beneficial uses in psychological treatment and spiritual awakening, as well as reconnection to the ancient language of the flesh.

    Last I saw of old Charlie he was still full of piss and vinegar, threatning to kill till the bodies touched the sky. Thanks for the doc Vlatko. I am always willing to hear what Charlie is going to say next. This guy's cheese fell off his cracker a long time ago.

  • Reasons Voice

    In a book written by one of the founding members of the FBI criminal profiling devision Charles Manson could probably be turned loose with no repurcussions. Since outside of the drug fueled sixties counterculture he ran in, he would have all the power of a crazed squeegie guy jabbering about the apocolypse on the freeway offramp.

  • Ez

    @ Reasons Voice

    Yeah, I would agree with that to some extent. It was more than just the drugs though. Young people of that time were looking for answers, for new ways of organizing society. People like this prey on those types of environments. That is why i say anarchy can never work. People like this would again arise to fill the power vaccuum. People that believe in anarchy forget the natural process of a leader rising and others following. It has happened since the beginning of mankind. You get more than twenty people together and someone will emerge eventually as the leader. Systems will be set up and rules formed, it is the only way to get progress. Otherwise you have all chiefs and no indians and all you do is argue about the best solution until its too late and the problem has passed you by.

  • Imightberiding

    @ EZ & Reasons Voice
    Don't forget, Manson was a moderately talented musician, singer, song writer. He went so far as to record some of his original music & even had one of his songs recorded by the Beach Boys. He was also hung out with them as well as several "B" rate actors of the time. This in itself would make for an attractive persona especially to kids in their late teens to early 20's when he was in his late 20's & early 30's. He wasn't or at least did not appear to these younger followers to be crazy at the time. Pretty much the same for Jim Jones. Both crazier than my ex but didn't appear so at the beginning.
    Now that I've glanced at the comments, I'll have a look at the doc.
    Cheers!

  • Imightberiding

    All done watching. Thanks for the opportunity to view this doc. Already well aware of these sad moments in history. It is always good however to be reminded of these sick & twisted individuals who captured so many insecure & misdirected peoples' attention & admiration & blind obedience. Very disturbing as well as maddening to think of such will-full & blatant ignorance mostly perpetrated in the name of religion or some lunatic's idea of their god. It is very challenging not to pass judgement to some degree on those who followed. I think we are all searching but unfortunately some are very naive, ignorant & vulnerable. So many of us have made ill-informed choices at some moment in our lives, only to escape with a metaphorical slap on the wrist. So sad for those & their families who did not get off so easily from ignorance, emptiness & resulting bad decisions.

  • Ez

    @ Imightberiding

    I knew he was a musician and yes that does capture alot of peoples attention. I have played in assorted bands and have many family members that actually made it in the music industry, and I have noticed that when I play a club or some party I get tons of attention from young impressionable people, teenage girls especially. Can't say as I mind but I have never indulged their infatuations. Charlie was a horrible musician by musician standards. His song writing was very shallow and so was the accompanying music. He never made it past strumming three cords in a 4/4 rythm. Of course many artists at this time were of about the same caliber and made it fairly well in the industry for a short time.

    I see people like that baptist church out of Texas that goes to soldiers funerals and runs them down as cults. They meet the three criteria set out in this doc as matter of fact. Those people pratically worship that old guy that is their pastor. And if you'll notice he never goes out with them to protest at these funerals and stuff. He is just like Charlie, except he feeds on his own family for followers. And much like Charlie when you finally get to see an interview with the guy you can't help thinking why would anyone follow him, he's just a cranky abusive old man.

  • i am become death

    -reverend phelps and his westborough baptists. and they think people are dieing because society is becoming more civilised and tolerant of people who are not necessarilly of the same belief system or opinion.
    the biggest question this doco raised for me was 'why in the face of death and torture do people allow the aggressor to inflict his will rather than fight against it.'
    as shown with jonestown- why do people so easily give up?

  • Reasons Voice

    @EZ; You are absolutely right in you statement about the leader follower roles being natural inclination. I realized it long ago, in my wild high school days. When me and my group of friends would go on our camping/psychadelic enhanced weekend trips. When ever I would grow tired of a place and got up to walk through the woods and explore all of my friends would just fall into line and follow. On normal days there was never any clear cut leadership role with us, we all had quite individual personalities and were independant. However while we were a bit chemically altered an impromptu hierachy just simply manifested. That is how I learned that there is within us, on a deep subconcious level, a wolf pack mentality.

  • Reasons Voice

    @i am; I believe what you refer to here as giving up is something quite different. The followers have a deep need to belong to something bigger than themselves. To become part of a grand design. Once completely immersed into this reality they become not only pliant but fervent in their belief that what they are doing is part of that grand ideal. Even if what is being done goes against all they previously knew.

  • Ben

    This is rudiculous! How do you compare Jesus Christ with the like of Asahara, Buddha etc and include Him among the cult Leaders. For every lucrative business,there must be counterfates. Jesus did not establish a Cult. Jesus' claim were real & genuine. He came from above for a reason.He fulfilled it and went back. Evidence is over-whelming. One day He will come back. He will judge both this un-believing commentator and the rest of the world

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @Ben,

    You have an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason and unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, of a hostile nature, regarding a religious group. That is called prejudice.

    Now how can you compare Buddha with the like of Asahara, Jesus etc, and include him among the cult leaders.

  • Mathew

    @Ben,
    Buddhism, or some secular form will likely be the only religion that survives in the future because of it's relatively godlessness beliefs. The power of prayer is good but chanting and meditating are just as important. I know being indoctrinated at a early age makes you think you are "ahead of the curve" when it comes to this subject. I believe all religions are cults but soon there will be cults for aliens similar to Scientology. I know this because I have seen them appearing out of nature. Meditating allows you to connect with trees, animals, humans and aliens. Drugs such as DMT can give you a direct link to old spirits or aliens. Please research Tibetan Buddhism. Tibet was taken over by the Chinese, so like Israel, they have both a religious and political struggle. I hope this helps and wish you the best in any case. P.S: Becareful with DMT, it can be extremely dangerous ifc not used properly. Similar to meditation because you might see something that you did not expect.

  • Reasons Voice

    @Ben; What you need to understand is that at the time of formation there is little to no difference between the big accepted religions of today and cults. I am not attempting to refute any one belief in that statement. The defining characteristics of cultism are present in both scenarios. At the time of Christs preaching all of those characteristics were present. A charismatic leader arising into a culture in turmoil with a message that becomes popular with a seperatist movement. I will not compare the final result of the teachings of Christ or Buddha to the likes of Jim Jones but the orrigional message is quite similar. Peace, unity, acceptance, and devotion to a higher power. I too get upset when a deliberate negative pall is cast over any belief system, since I believe that a faith is a positive thing to individuals. I do not thing the use of Christ here was meant in that way. Since the doc was directed toward an American audience, and Christianity is the predominant religion in America, it makes sense to use it in example. This was not done to cast aspersion onto Christianity, but to show how it is that ordinary people can be seduced into a cult. Through the gradual process of positive belief morphing into mindless adhearance and perversion these cults define themselves as quite different than faiths such as Christianity. And yet the roots undenyably are the same.

  • Ez

    @ Reasons Voice

    Man, you are extremely intelligent and well spoken. You do an excellent job of both getting the truth across and structuring it in a non offensive way, cudos.

    @ Ben

    I am not as diplomatic as Reasons voice. All I am going to say is that people of other faiths know just as plainly and fervently as you that their belief system is correct. I have a degree in theology and Resons voice is absolutedly right, all most every religion starts off as a cult. If it finally wins main stream acceptance it is no longer thought of that way but that doesn't change the facts of its beginning. I don't see rigid belief systems, or faith, as beneficial to people my self. I think it blinds them to realities such as the way you were blinded of this truth. I also think it embues them with a holier than thou attitude, very obvious in your post, that allows them to commit offenses ranging from attrocity to simple arrogance. No one ideaology or theology will cover all things, no blanket is that large. All things are relative, from the physical world to the spiritual realm.

    The above advice to try DMT is an excellent way to clear away the culture and environmentally induced operating system you and everyone else runs on. Once this has been temporarily cleared away you can connect to what I call the ancient language of the flesh. Here you will come face to face with the wolf pack mentality that man posesses naturally. You will remember the face of your father and see clearly the clearing at the end of the path were we will all meet one day. It gives you such a sense of brotherhood with all living things that you will never again wish judgement on anyone, nor see the validity of such judgement.

    If you are absolutedly against drug use, try meditation. It has the same effect but takes much longer and lots of practice. Eventually though you will feel your self lifted from the body holding you in this world. You are choosing to be here, right now, in this world. All this pain is merely illusion. Once you achieve this state of nirvana you realize you are all things and nothing at the same time, that all these neon distractions are clumbsy and weightless. It is the greatest calm and rapture I have every felt, it makes me cry every time I manage to achieve it. The study of Buddhism is a means to this end, you should not knock it but try it. It will embrace you no matter what you have done or what you believe, all you have to do is unclench your fist and extend your hand. Peace brother, I wish you well regardless of how you feel toward me.

  • Reasons Voice

    @EZ; Thank you kindly for your complimenting words. I am simply what I am. No more nor less than anyone else by nature or design. If I come off as articulate, considderate, and inteligent it is only as result of practice. I love to think. I also love to express my thoughts and to learn the thoughts of others. That enjoyment and repetittion has made me what I now am. And if someone I respect (regardless of disagreement in some things) such as yourself sees me in such positive light I am glad for it. So again I thank you.

  • fifimsp

    Wow, even in Japan the nuts believe they're Christ.

  • Ez

    @ audiotech

    I agree that wars have killed more than any other unnatural influence. But if you look at places were the state was dissolved and a power vacuum formed, you will see a potential for even more deaths. Places in Africa are good examples. The powers that be were overthrown with no thought toward what would replace them. As a result power hungry sick people rose to take power by force. These people were only interested in self gain and did not look after sanitation or utilities like clean running water and so forth. The people there died from murder, disease, and starvation. States have their downfalls for sure, but they also have their uses. A lot of that depends on what kind of state arises: democratic, Communist, fascist, etc. But all of these different types of state can turn into a bad situation. The democracy here in the US is a good example. It served the people for over a hundred years, very well. Everyone pretty much thrived, with the exception of short periods of economic crisis. But now it has turned into the tool big business uses to extort and rob by turning once free markets into over regulated choked out monopolies.

    For instance the timber industry has lobbied congress until they got a law passed that all logs have to be of a certain length before the saw mill can buy them. Of course this length of log is impossible to transport or manipulate without industrial equipment. This has put the small logging outfits out of business as well as the even smaller individual that used to cut and haul on small trucks with nothing more than a couple of chain saws and back breaking labor. The heating and cooling industry has had a similar issue arise. The big guys in this industry have lobbied congress to pass a law, which they did, that says you must reclaim all coolant from cooling systems. Sounds great right, well the reclamation unit cost more than any small privately owned heating and cooling operation could ever afford. Even when you take into consideration that you can reuse the coolant you still lose money. The units are designed to give out at about the time you manage to pay them off, so it’s a never ending struggle that has shut down thousands of smaller heating and cooling businesses.

    The sad thing is that big business has managed to convince the people to get angry with congress instead of them; they convinced a vast amount of people that government wanted all these regulations and it has ditched the economy. They count on the fact that the average US citizen knows nothing of economics, doesn't study economic history, and has no idea most of these regulations were lobbied for by big business. Think about what possible gain congress would have for doing this. It reduces competition and economic growth by destroying small businesses. This makes the congress look bad. Now ask yourself what big business has to gain, it’s quite a bit. Like I said it reduces competition and lets them form covert agreements on price setting, labor wages, etc. They are boasting record profits while we sit in an economic crisis.

    Don't get me wrong, congress should take a lot of the blame as well. After all they are the ones that agreed to these lobbyist's demands knowing what the impact would be. But they need these big companies money if they are to get reelected. They need the few jobs and meager wages these companies reluctantly let out in their state to get reelected. Its pay and play politics.

    Plus our currency was high jacked by the central bank and is now controlled by big banking; surely I don’t have to explain the downfall in that. These people can now exact changes in leadership and legislation through currency manipulation. They also instituted the fractional reserve banking system. Which benefits the banks in a horribly unbalanced way and sets up a system were debt is money. The result is that if Americans stop borrowing and pay off their debts the system would collapse. It sets it up in such a way that if all loans were called in at one time, it is absolutely impossible for there to be enough currency to cover all the loans plus the interest. Which means we play a game of musical chairs were the last guy left standing goes bankrupt every time.

    It makes it easy when you think of all this to get mad at the system and say no more government. But in reality the system was fine until all these maggots started feeding off of it. We need to return to a government issued currency and a congress that keeps the interest of the people above getting reelected. We need to reform campaign finance so these congress men don't need all the money they get from big business to run their next campaign. We need more transparency in the way these huge companies operate so we can boycott those causing harm. We need oversight more than regulation, mostly on investment banking and Wall Street. We need politicians that do the will of the people. We need better trade agreements that even the playing field. We need manufacturing to come back to this country, we have to have something we make and make well. We need more cooperation between countries and less of this competitive mentality. We could all do well; it doesn't have to be one or two major global powers running everything.

    Even if we decided here to do away with government, it isn't going to happen all around the globe. We would soon find ourselves invaded and destroyed- assimilated into another state. Our country relies on so many highly complicated things like air travel, infrastructure, sanitation systems, utility systems, communication systems- all of these things have to be coordinated by some central power that can both make important decisions and also collect and disseminate data throughout the network in order to keep things running. Maybe the state designed themselves into a position so crucial and important that they could never be done away with, but regardless this is the reality. We have to have the state.

  • Joe

    The problem with this documentary is the politically correct apologetic distinction between cults and religion. Religions are cults and cults are gangs. Religion is creepy and dangerous, whether supported by hippy Jesus freaks or bow-to-the-floor islamites. They are all cults - all of them - no exception! They all operate under the pretense of love, safe haven and of being on the defensive from outside attack.

    In reality, they are all about manipulation, control and the exploitation of people. They are always headed by a charismatic leader - the pope, the imam, the evangelist in the shiny suit, the 'friendly' local pastor, etc.. Millions of gullible i@#$% followers support these groups - the catholic cult, the islam cult, the pentacostal cult, the evangelical cult, the hindu cult, the mormon cult, the scientology cult and all the others.

    Sick superstition-cults like these will always escape scrutiny while it is considered 'offensive to peoples' religious sensibilities'. Cults will always flourish because people are afraid to offend them. Cult members will always hide behind the shield of being offended while making the same old excuse - "those are cults and we're not like that." Yeah,.. sure you're not.

  • Wayne

    Eventually we will all become a slave to another..even if only for a moment. And eventually we all become the leaders if only for a moment. There are enough distractions in our lives to include having to watch ourselves for abborant social abnormalities.

  • Mathew

    God says to strap on a condom now according the Vatican!

  • 420 Vision

    Clearly this doco was produced by Mormons,.. haaaa what a joke !

  • Reasons Voice

    I agree with some of the anti religion sentiment expressed by many of you. However the bottom line is that generalities dominate your thinking. Ultimately the individual is in control. They choose what role faith and religion will play in their lives. Whether it be a dominating foundational devotion or a simple moral guide post. Never take away individuality as it is the basis of true humanity.

  • Ryan

    The thing is, a cult doesn't necessarily mean something insidious and dangerous. It doesn't really answer the fundamental question: why do some cults stay peaceful and why do others become dangerous?

    It has to do almost absolutely with the personality of the leader and how much power he or she has. And remember, cults can also be political movements as well.

  • John

    What went down in Waco was the ATF and FBI's fault. This is painfully obvious propaganda as usual, History channel style. TPTB want to get rid of the religious exemption so they can make everyone do whatever they want by simply calling it "reasonable". Vaccines, public indoctrination, and TSA-style measures may be great for the general hoodwink populace, but as for my House, we follow our common sense.

  • Ez

    @ Mathew

    Ha, ha, ha. Yep, I saw that. I have a degree in theology so I tend to follow these things. He actually said in the case of prostitution it was o.k. to protect against desease. Can you believe that, sounded like he was endorsing prostitution. I know he wasn't really but even CNN was saying it made some eye browse raise because of its insinuation.

    In my opinion it was a good thing for him to say though. I think it will help reduce the spread of desease. Many catholics will now feel it alright to use protection when sleeping with a questionable partner. I have a feeling that they were already doing this with prostitutes though, as most prostitutes will not have sex without the use of a condom anyway.

  • Reasons Voice

    Yea it seems that Catholocism is trending toward a more reasonable mind set in todays world. Actually seems to be evolving more into a simple faith than a moral dictatorship. Honestly about time since nowhere in the new testament do you find any of these rules and restrictions.

  • Mathew Ross

    previous government whores!

  • Achems Razor

    Well yes ,the Vatican knows all about how people should have sex, that is why they are celibate??? hmmm

    Yes on the news, they allow condoms for "questionable sex"?? prostitutes and, can't say the "G" word probably, so will say homosexuals.

    Helter Skelter is a must read by Vincent Bugliosi, the prosecutor to Manson.

    And I agree with @Joe: all the religee's belong to their chosen "cults"

    All religions are cults!

  • Sam

    Every single commenter has missed the big picture here. Start looking at our current society and ask yourself, is this a cult?

  • Swytch

    ^This

  • Reasons Voice

    @Sam; That makes no sense at all. The defining chaaracteristic of a cult is a collective mentality. Where all members are convinced of a certain belief. I look around me and see nothing but dissent. Virtually noone agrees on anything. Hardly a cult.

  • Ben

    @Vlatko
    "2000 years ago, a carpenter, a prostitute and 12 other out-casts started a cult that challenged all social values at the time."This is how the commentatator introduces Jesus. So you want me to gladly believe that he is not prejudiced. Every one in here posts a commentry in light of defending his belief. So, let me speak out in defence of Jesus because He is far beyond such a discription. It is also disgusting that He is falsely grouped with a prostitute to begin a cult. The commentator has little knowledge of who Jesus was.He should read more about Him in order to begin grouping Him with Criminals.

    @ Reasons Voice
    You said you have a degree in Theology and you are defending and praising the likes of Ez who can write such statements like,

    " I too get upset when a deliberate negative pall is cast over any belief system, since I believe that a faith is a positive thing to individuals"

    A faith in what? Having positive faith in anything will not save anybody from the wrath of God,unless that faith is in the saving power of God. If that degree is related to Christianity and you could not discern that there is a spirit of anti-christ in Ez and the commentator,then you acquired it for interlect reasons not but not for the defence your Saviour Jesus. That is if you believe He is the ONLY Saviour anyway. Do you? Waiting for your answer sir

    I will not apply cosmetics and perfume to my words so they smell good to avoid being offensive and confrontational here.Agreed! The use of Christ is not the issue in this documentary but the way He was used is the issue. He didnot team up with a prostitute to begin a cult.This is false and utterly wrong. I will not hesitated to strongly assert that Jesus'concemption & birth was miraculous,His life was characterised by wonders and miracles,He made claims that he came from above with a mission so that whoever would believe in Him would be saved from death to life,He then went ahead to defeat Death(in fact He also stated that He was on the same equal-footing with God) ,In essence He was,and is God.(John 10:30). So, to annoy you more, Jesus is God. John 1:10. He is worthy of all the Praise .He is beyond comparison with criminals.This commentator blasphemed against God! OOhhh!

    I dont care whether you are a Mohammedan,Buddhist, Shintoist, Confucionist or any of these infamous people that made claims that they also got messages from God.All i know is that there is only one way to Glory and that way is Jesus. Head knowledge,good oratory skills and ability to commentate and write more critically in here will not save any body just like belief and faith in any of the founders of the organisations mentioned above will rescue any person from the wrath to come.

  • Achems Razor

    The c%$#P written by @Ben: above makes me hate people all over again, well, for awhile anyway.

    "Prostitute is criminal"?? you say, prostitution is not criminal, it is the oldest "profession" in the world.

    What you are doing is criminal, prostituting your religion, trying to get converts. Pimping yourself for your man made Jesus.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @Ben,

    The documentary is not the problem. You are the problem as a person.

    I asked you a question: How can you compare Buddha with the like of Asahara, Jesus, Mohamed etc, and include him among the cult leaders?

    Who fooled you with this guy called Jesus? You're making a big mistake. However you have some time left for repentance.

    I'm pretty sure that Buddhas path is the real path. Believe me. You will not be saved from the wrath of Buddha unless you repent.

    _________________________

    See how foolish is this kind of conversation. I'm not offering any kind of constructive dialog. I'm just slapping around my own unsubstantiated believes.

  • Reasons Voice

    @Ben; For one you transposed EZ and myself in tour reply. He was the theology student and I was the one who made that statement. And having read what you wrote above I will revise that statement to this;
    I too get upset when a deliberate negative pall is cast over any belief system, since I believe that a faith is a positive thing to individuals. UNLESS SAID INDIVIDAL INTENDS TO UTILIZE HIS OWN PERSONAL BELIFES AS A TOOL OF JUDGEMENT AND ABUSE UPPON OTHERS.
    I have much more concern for the status of your immortal soul than I do any other person on this forum. For it is you and only you who blatantly and beligerantly passes judgemnet uppon your fellow man. That act makes you wrong in two-fold ways. One you defy the teachings of your Christ by judging your fellow man. "Judge not lest ye be judged" Ring a bell? And two you show an apalling lack of faith in your god and Christ by assuming they need your help to save mankind. You sir are an abomination of Christs teachings and as such embody the idea of anti-christ far more than do any of those you slander with your judgement. You are in dire need of reform in your beliefs and your faith if you feel justified in perverting the teachings of Christ to fit your own superior attitude and distain for your fellow man. May your god show you to enlightenment and if that fails pitty your self righteous soul.
    Good Day Sir please do not respond with a rant as I will smite you down for the perverion that you are if you do so.

  • myself

    there is a cult that drive many other kind of cult. its the letter s with 2 lines cross down.

  • Ez

    @ Ben

    Belief is not what being a theologian is about. It is about the study of all theologies, not just the Christian theology. And even though we study them, we may or may not believe in them. I also studied about Hitler and the Nazi party, does this mean I have to be a Nazi? Get a grip man, read a book, get an education. At least google theology or theologian before you make such an a55 of yourself.

    As far as my personal religious beliefs, for reasons I will not go into I can no longer talk freely about that. If you can't figure it out, you are definetly in need of an education. All I can say is you would fit in nicely where I live, and people like you are why I can no longer freely talk about what I believe or do not believe. Besides, that has nothing to do with this conversation and is frankly none of your business.

  • Ez

    @ Vlatko

    I never thought I would see that phrase, "the wrath of Buddha". Its funny to even think of it. I get your point, I'm just saying it sounds really funny considering the passive nature of that particular belief system. I have to say though, since starting to study the eastern religions like Buddhism I am impressed. They are very deep and spiritual, as well as calming and beautiful. Western theologies tend to be exclusive and full of judgement and hate.

    I have heard that Tibetan Buddhism is very different than the Zen Buddhism I have studied though. As I have not yet really completed my studies of either I will wait and see. All I know is that any theology that does not proclaim a certain dogma sounds really refreshing and different from the western religions I am used to.

  • Ez

    @ Ben

    To be more clear I should say that most theology degrees will be tied to a certain faith or set of faiths. My degree was tied to western theologies, and was some what general. We learned mostly about the Jewish traditions and the religions that sprung from it, like Christianity which includes Catholicism and Protestant religions. To try and study all theologies would indeed be difficult. There are simply too many to cover under one degree.

    The most important point I am trying to make to you is that to study these theologies in no way means you must or are expected to believe them. It merely means they interest you and you would like to better understand how they came about, what they mean, the psychology behind them, etc. I suppose I can understand your confusion somewhat though, certain theology degrees are specifically geared toward those entering the seminary.

  • chickenpants

    nothing isn't a cult.

  • ak5

    i have multiple questions.
    when were mormons prosecuted?
    are all cult leaders psychopaths?

  • Epicurus

    @Ben, you are completely missing the point of the documentary. Religion is a blinder for you. you hear something that you have been taught to think is blasphemy and you react in a knee-jerk fashion, throwing all logic and rationality out the window.

    A cult is a fringe religious group. that is pretty much it. when jesus was around there was NO SUCH THING as christianity. it hadnt been grouped together yet. what was happening was jesus was a cult leader BY DEFINITION. that is not to say that cults are evil and bad, and jesus is just like Charles Manson. but what he started was a breakaway religious branch of judaism, which was refered to as a cult by the mainstream religions of the time.

    why are you so offended by this? Your reaction is typical of someone who is a member of a cult and has a strong emotional reaction when someone attacks their cult leader....ironic no?

    Now Ben, lets take an academic look at why christianity is a cult shall we.

    according to the Psychologist in this documentary Dr. Lifton from Harvard, a cult contains 3 major characteristics.

    1: is that a guru becomes the main focus and worshiped rather than the principles taught by that person...that sounds exactly like what happened with Jesus and Christianity. the teachers and laws handed down to the hebrew people by GOD have been forgotten or cherry picked and replaced with whatever the cult leader Jesus said....HELL he even got the whole religion named after HIM...that is cult like.

    2: Cults often contain thought reform type characteristics, and/or systematic indoctrination including confession and harsh criticism....lets see...christianity uses lots of mindless chanting and praying and repetitive rituals and actions which help induce a slight state of hypnosis enabling one to be more susceptible to accepting silly information. Christianity also uses confession (catholicism) and the worst part here, is they use hell as a terrorist tool. they use criticism of the way people think and live to tell them they will be punished in hell if they dont act the way they do.....very cult like.

    3: Finally, cults must show signs of heavy Exploitation from the guru or other high ranking individuals often economic and sexual....well it doesnt take a genius to see the way the church exploits people all over the world to give them money, they are one of the richest organizations, and they are always asking for more and saying everyone else needs to help the poor. Churches in North America are also tax exempt as long as they dont interfere with politics (which they ALWAYS do)...and finally we all know about the church molesting children and protecting the priests from persecution by moving them to other parishes and allowing them to molest other children.

    so yes your stupid little imaginary role playing land of make believe christianity world, is a complete brain washing cult.

  • Kara Kittle

    @ Epicurus

    However, the difference in the cult of Christianity and others is something you fail to recognize. Christianity is a broad term. Many cults do arise out of it, the same as cults arise from all religious groups.

    The Epicurians, Essenes, Sadducees and Maccabeans were also considered cults of their day. The Greeks had the cults of Diana, Dyonisius and Demeter. The Romans also had cults. All nations have had cults of one sort or another.

    Christianity was never based in sexual or economic exploitation, Jesus taught obedience to God first (He taught the Shema Y'Israel and spoke it), obedience to the government and then good citizens in both the Kingdom of God and the kingdom in which you live. Christianity has never been exclusive, meaning it only allows certain people involved. So the "cult of Christianity" was only coined that by the Roman leadership, in which the Roman government itself was a cult that worshiped the Emporer.

    To call Christianity itself a cult is very ignorant and implies an non-understanding of the religion. The same as implying all of Judaism is a cult or all of Islam is a cult. You have to lay the blame on individuals who have the narcissistic or megalomania tendencies. Jim Jones may have been Christian at one time, but believed he was the Messiah. Those ideas did not come to him only one morning, he had to believe something about himself early on that he was.

    I don't think you understand much about religion to begin with. You say prayer rituals place the adherent in a hypnotic state. But that is what tantric yoga does, yet you did not mention that. Do you even know the teachings of Jesus? No, I think you do not. Neither did the people who believe cult leaders.

    Even Barack Obama has a cult following in many poorer countries.

    Jesus never taught that He was replacing God (Yaweh). He never asked his disciples to confess all their sins. He did require them to go to the people they had injured in some way and make it right as much as possible. Jesus always taught personal accountability in the life of the believer, we must live according to the commandments of God. We must live a life of integrity.

    So when you blame Christianity, what you are really doing is negating the individual acts of people who hide behind the mask of religion. And your constant berating of Christians actually borders on cultic philosophy. You want to indoctrinate others in an orgy of Christian bashing by your striking out against what you perceive as "the Establishment". You want the world to join your cult of "anti-Christian". The question is, who indoctrinated you? They did their job well because you are faithful to the philosophy.

  • Kara Kittle

    The narrator did say "prostitute" as though he were reformulating the Knights Templar myth about Mary Magdalene and using the Gnostic Gospels as the template for this documentary.

    People only "THINK" they know what religion is, really, they don't and they show it. Their assumptions are laughable.

    Buddha or Prince Gautama, abandoned his wife and infant son on the night his son was born. That establishes him as a dead-beat dad. He did it in the name of "enlightenment". He made the baby, he should have taken care of it. So in my opinion, Buddhism is a religion of abandonment. When you view an infant as nothing more than a material object, you have denied its humanity and how can a religion be of value if the adherents are not even seen as having any value?

    Then condemn Christianity who has a God that says He not only loves us, He is always with us, and He loved us so much that He gave the world to us, and gave a sacrifice for us. He loves us, and He should be condemned for that?

    There is no room for love within Buddhism or Hinduism. There is no room for love in atheism or agnosticism. People are viewed as nothing more than a walking mass of cells. But people who decry the humanity of another individual, somehow are offended when their own humanity is disregarded.

    Really, it works like this..all of you people who dislike Christianity have no right to complain at all. In the faith systems without God, you don't even exist as a person. So your words are meaningless. Your opinions are worthless. Because you have set humankind as worthless, that includes you as well in that group. You can't set yourself above others, then the philosophy is wrong.

  • Epicurus

    @Kara,

    once again, people with vested interest in a particular position are not listening to what a cult is and are just reacting in their indoctrinated way.

    A cult doesnt have to start out or begin with exploitation of any kind so saying it didnt start that way is a moot point. it doesnt matter, it is that way now.

    christianity was a break away group of judaism, so it is a CULT of judaism. that is the bottom line.

    calling the roman empire a cult again shows you dont understand what a cult is. claiming because christianity wasnt exclusive so it wasnt a cult is just $tupid. the point is not that an organization needs to be exclusive to particular members to be a cult. that is not the standard.

    by saying christianity is NOT a cult shows you have no clue what a cult is, what a religion is, and how christianity actually came about.

    Christianity is a cult of judaism and so is islam, we can almost show a link from judaism to zoroastrianism, showing that judaism would have started as a schismatic cult of zorzastrianism.

    the reason i didnt mention tantric yoga putting someone in a hypnotic state was because that is not what we were discussing at the time. why are you trying to deflect attention away from the topic? that is a common tactic made by people defending a religion. claiming some other group does the same thing so that somehow justifies it....silly.

    you now are claiming because of my view i dont have the correct information. the information that is in the bible and available to anyone, but only people who truly believe can actually get the true meaning from it...so im just not reading it right?

    now again calling a group of people that dont like a certain organization a cult shows again that YOU DONT KNOW WHAT A CULT IS.

    im not anti-christianity anymore than i am anti- mythical belief.

    your take on the whole religion of buddhism as one of abandonment of children based on a story you heard about the founder shows even more of your ignorance and generalization.

    He had left his wife and child in a palace that was theirs in a life of luxury so he could sacrifice his own pleasure to find a teaching that would help all people live a more full life.

    you would dismiss a whole groups teaching on your own indoctrinated view of your cult.

    condemn christianity that says there is a god that loves us yet is not just or loving. sending people to hell because they dont believe in him even if they are good people. if he makes people he knows what they require to believe something, we cant force a belief. if he doesnt offer the evidence that a person needs to believe then it is his fault that they dont believe in him. we all cant be as gullible as you.

    why is there no room for love in those philosophies?

    maybe the problem is that you cant understand why people could love and be kind without the fear of some all knowing always watching god thing that will punish us if we do wrong and reward us if we do good. it seems like YOU are incapable of love without a delusional belief in a fictional character telling you how to love.

    if any organization has set humanity as worthless it is christianity. atheistic philosophies that dont have an afterlife recognize THIS life as the one that matters. people who think they are getting some place in heaven dont recognize the gift that this life truly is.

    you have done nothing here but shown not only your ignorance of the topic at hand (what is a cult, what makes something a cult), but you have also shown your inability to understand the views of any other group other than your own.

    i feel sorry for you.

  • Kara Kittle

    Epicurus,
    You have a vested interest also in your own value system, so you are in essence, the pot calling the kettle black. With the moralistic high ground you have taken in your effort to expose Christianity, you haven't quite convinced us yet of any moralistic template in which you can base any argument from.

    You may say "I have no faith system, I choose no value system...except that of my own design." Then you do have a moralistic value system, one that makes you feel free to say what you want against any other system, meanwhile being angered when anyone challenges your own.

    What moral template are you basing your value system on? Certainly you say "don't judge me, but I judge you". Can you affirm how you came into that value? Did you receive that from some higher authority, or are you the highest authority? If you are the highest authority,then you have deified yourself. And if you present a moral code of ethics, stemming from your own consensus of what is right or wrong, then you not only deified yourself, you worship yourself.

    And then you berate and attempt to punish those who do not accept your deification. So when my argument is saying the exact words that yours is, you bristle. So the reason you are in the cult of anti-Christian, is because your value system is based in doing whatever it takes to destroy it. Why is that? Have you become the Messiah of Reason?

    A cult begins with a person who believes they are the one who knows all. Then that person believes they are the answer to saving the world from ignorance, therefore they develop a value system and gain adherents through "reason". They prey on those who are vulnerable. They systematically berate that said person...usually telling them they are worthless and ignorant and worthy of only being saved by such Messiah of Reason.

    Do you see the correlation? You have to find Christians to attack. You are not satisfied with Christians residing on the same planet as you. If you were tolerant, as you require Christians to be, then you would not have to find forums like this to be your platform.

    And the proper historical term for Christianity was a sect. Essenes were a sect, Pharisees were a sect. Sadduccees were sects. But, when a person with authority calls a group a cult, that person said it within the limits of a narrowly defined boundary.

    Certainly you can read a Bible, they are free to read and no matter what language it is read in, the message is the same. No one says you have to read it in Holy English. I have also read the Satanic Bible by Anton LeVay. Some people have faith in that as well.

    And yes, the Roman Empire was the cult of the Emperor of the day. The Roman Emperor was considered a god, just like the Pharaoh was. And that is the base for every cult, a person who has deified themselves. That, you cannot deny.

  • Epicurus

    The moral template to base my argument on is the pragmatic utilitarian one. i also like to use the Rawlsian Veil of Ignorance.

    now what template do YOU base your morality on?

    i have NO vested interest in atheism. i would be more than happy to change to which ever position could provide evidence. until i am given evidence i will keep the default position of atheism.

    also i never said you cant judge me....you are a PERFECT example of a religious person not paying attention to the conversation and completely straw manning the opposition and trying to play the victim. its pathetic and not going to work in text.

    i didnt punish anyone, berate? maybe. but of course if someone is being delusional i will tell them.

    you arent even making any sense. you are just rambling off like a mad christian that cant follow a simple conversation.

    your little definition of cult up there is NOT what a cult is. maybe you should watch the documentary. or like i did, take a psychology course on cults.

    who said im not satisfied with christians one the same planet? i have no problem with them, but they are delusional. now the christian is the one who thinks anyone who doesnt think like they do is going to hell....lol and you think IM intolerant? how is this forum my platform? again another sentence that doesnt even make sense in the discussion we are having. you are just making yourself look like a child. if you cant focus dont bother responding.

    if you are refering to the imperial roman cult, then yes there was a SMALL group of people in rome that saw the emperors to be gods...but that was a very small amount. not the majority of romans.

    a person who has deified themselves....lets see...who has done that???
    JESUS CHRIST.

  • Kara Kittle

    Epicurus,
    Absolutely your vested interest is in atheism, because it is the stance from which all your arguments flow from. Your own world viewpoint is atheistic, therefore your interest stems from that. All worldviews come from formulated ideals. Your ideals stem from atheism, hence your vested interest is atheist. Therefore, all arguments you make are from that interest.

    I see that you do not like to be disagreed with to the point you call Christians (and not theists or deists) delusional. So I ask you this, from where do you draw the authority to do so? On what moral template?

    I think you just do not like to be challenged by "delusional" Christians, because your default action is to berate them. You pounced on poor Ben up there, then when I came into the discussion, you pounced on me as well. But Ben never responded back. I did. And that bugged you to the extent that your grammar got worse in each argument.

    That implies several things about you. You love ad hominem attacks, you are quite capable of that. You don't like the same treatment brought back to you. So you are in essence a cyber-bully. The fact your grammar got worse, just makes you look like the person who gets red-faced when confronted with their actions by the same action.

    So I will say again, atheism is a choice to not believe. That means you have the choice to believe. And if there are choices, then that means if the choice to believe in a god does exist, then the god could exist as well. But, atheism cannot disprove the existence of any deity whatsoever.

    Atheism is defined by Merriam-Webster as "the lack of belief in a deity". That plainly put, is merely the lack of believing in a deity. That does not mean the deity does not exist.

    I am not challenging your atheism, it is merely a choice you make. What I am challenging, is your cyber-bullying. I do not cringe,cry, get mad or do any of those victimization things you think Christians do.

    I am a theist. That means I have the choice to believe in a deity, which can also mean the deity might not exist. However, I didn't call you delusional. If a choice exists, then could not the object of belief also exist?

    We can't talk about what really is not there, the absolute non-existent will have no word that can apply to it, because it is non-existent in form and function. And if it could, might exist, because implication of choice of belief, then it absolutely exists.

    How does this apply to cults? Cult leaders use ad hominem attacks against those who disagree with him. Cult leaders use reason, cult leaders use a worldview they have formulated from their ideals to manipulate those who are weaker.

    Charles Manson is proof that worldviews lead to actions based on those worldviews.

  • Epicurus

    @Kara,

    you said:
    "Absolutely your vested interest is in atheism, because it is the stance from which all your arguments flow from. Your own world viewpoint is atheistic, therefore your interest stems from that. All worldviews come from formulated ideals. Your ideals stem from atheism, hence your vested interest is atheist. Therefore, all arguments you make are from that interest."

    absolutely wrong. i have a vested interest in reason, logic, and truth. i hold the position of atheism because it is the default position if you dont buy into the claims of any other position. if you have some good reason i ought to believe your god is real i would love to hear it.

    you said:
    "I see that you do not like to be disagreed with to the point you call Christians (and not theists or deists) delusional. So I ask you this, from where do you draw the authority to do so? On what moral template?"

    sorry, if it makes you feel better theists and deists are also delusional if they insist they are right without evidence. where do i draw the authority to call them delusional? well i take the psychological definition of delusional, which is: "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence". now you would have to agree that either ALL religious people are delusional when it comes to their religion, OR all religions except ONE are delusional. your question "on what moral template?" doesnt make sense.

    you said:
    "I think you just do not like to be challenged by “delusional” Christians, because your default action is to berate them. You pounced on poor Ben up there, then when I came into the discussion, you pounced on me as well. But Ben never responded back. I did. And that bugged you to the extent that your grammar got worse in each argument."

    i love to be challenged by anyone. i didnt "pounce" on "poor ben", i corrected him showing him why christianity started as a cult. i didnt "pounce" on you either, you are just playing the victim rather than actually addressing the issue that we started discussing (christianity starting as a cult). now for some reason you are just discussing my mannerisms which you dont approve of....boo hoo. not to mention my grammer. im not about to edit these posts to you as long as the information is in them.

    you said:
    "That implies several things about you. You love ad hominem attacks, you are quite capable of that. You don’t like the same treatment brought back to you. So you are in essence a cyber-bully. The fact your grammar got worse, just makes you look like the person who gets red-faced when confronted with their actions by the same action."

    i didnt make ONE ad hominem attack. i have tried relentlessly to stay on topic no matter how much you want to discuss me. my grammer didnt get worse. and for you to make that type of rash judgment based on the limited amount of posts we have had here is just sad. again you are trying to attack and discredit me rather than anything that was said. that is what an ad hominem is. if you dont know, dont use the word.

    you said:
    "So I will say again, atheism is a choice to not believe. That means you have the choice to believe. And if there are choices, then that means if the choice to believe in a god does exist, then the god could exist as well. But, atheism cannot disprove the existence of any deity whatsoever."

    wow...its a choice to believe? you are telling me you can just choose right now to not believe in a god, or maybe right now just decide to believe in zeus? i absolutely couldnt just believe in something by choice INCLUDING not believe in something by choice. I require what i like to call "PEARL" which is physical evidence and rational logic. if the choice to believe in leprechauns exist does that mean leprechauns exist? your logic is that of a child. it doesnt make any sense. atheism doesnt HAVE to disprove anything that cant be shown to have evidence. the position of belief makes claims that cant stand up to scrutiny so why would atheism have to disprove theism? theism is the one making the claim that something exists...until it can shown its position true, no one has to give it any credit.

    you said:
    "Atheism is defined by Merriam-Webster as “the lack of belief in a deity”. That plainly put, is merely the lack of believing in a deity. That does not mean the deity does not exist."

    atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, no one here has said that it means the deity doesnt exist. but who would not believe something that is??? that doesnt make sense. the reason someone wouldnt believe something is because they have not been convinced by the evidence presented.....convince me.

    you said:
    "And if it could, might exist, because implication of choice of belief, then it absolutely exists."

    100% wrong.

  • Epicurus

    and i should add Mormonism is a cult of christianity.

  • ReligionIsntAllBad

    Cults are not defined by criminal activity. I think the Christians trying to put forth that Christianity is not and has never been a cult have gone nutters. This movie is brash in its description of Christianity and the tone is "Top 19 Car Chases on Fox" but consider the truth of the statements and the ACTUAL definition of the word "cult".

    Jesus was an unorthodox and socially revolutionary spiritual leader (if you even believe he existed, I suppose). For the Christians in doubt and actually anyone interested in the historical Jesus, I recommend 'Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography'. It should be noted that A Revolutionary and Biography are printed on different lines which is quite fitting :D

    One cult leader I am sad they didn't mention is now known as Avatar Adi Da Samraj ... verrrrrrrrry interesting person. Messed up person. Possibly completely freakin enlightened but nowhere clear of his human impulses. Revered by pundits and spiritual adepts, while simultaneously being somewhat of an egomaniac. Not obviously evil so completely overlooked by this documentary ... shame :)

    Waco was a tragic event really. Bill Hicks says it better than I ever could.

  • Mr Dax

    All religions are cults, evry one, no exceptions. Doubt it? Look up the definition of cult in Websters.

  • Kara Kittle

    Let me show you something...

    I believe in God Jehova and His Son Jesus Christ.

    If you feel compelled to jump on this statement because you feel my statement is wrong, then who is the aggressor?

    What in my statement is wrong? I do believe it.

    The problem you have is not so much in the belief itself, but in the fact that people do believe in such things.

    You say "I have reason, logic, intelligence" to back up your claim that you have no belief. That does not mean what I have faith in does not exist. It means simply that you choose not to believe in the same thing I believe in. I have to ask, why you can't just be tolerant of Christians, you have to jump on everything a Christian says and does.

    So you don't have a problem with religions per se...you have a problem with Christians. And you do not hesitate to attempt to show us error, as though you are on a mission. But you have not shown that God does not exist and you cannot show that anymore than you can disprove a thought in my mind or in anyone's mind.

    You can't prove a memory. You can't prove a fleeting desire. Those exist solely within the mind. You may say it can be measured. Can you measure the psychic bond between a mother and child? That exists. You can't prove a memory of your childhood to any person on here. And a memory exists solely in your mind, in your reasoning and your logic. But it is impossible to prove.

    I challenge you then, to prove a memory.

    Does that sound unreasonable? Why should it? We are talking about purely physical functioning. We are talking about reason and logic to understand the world around us, but what about what is going on inside us?

  • Achems Razor

    @Kara Kittle:

    Us atheist's do not have to prove a thing. The burden of proof is always logically on the person who is asserting, namely you!

    So prove it, or forever be silenced!

  • WTC7

    @ Kara Kittle,

    There is no need to act like a hurt child. If you feel that christians are being attacked, it's mostly because they had an upper hand about everything for too long throughout history of the Western world, and people who don't believe in god are somewhat tired of it, me included, and are not ready to accept the christian bullying any longer (sorry, I have to call it that, because that's how I see it).

    Personally, I'm fed up with the false christian morality and the fact that you guys think the truth belongs to you exclusively. Your religion, which pretends to be the one of peace and harmony, has caused, and still is, so many wars and misery, that you do not have any right to even begin talking about morality and preach it to others (not specifically related to your post, but that would be the general tendency of your kind that I have seen so far). Not to say that any of us can claim the knowledge of the truth - whatever that may be - sometimes I'm a bit upset with the guys who take science as religion and preach as dogmatically as any christian would, or a muslim or adherent of any other organized religion for that matter.

    Instead of scourging people who don't conform with your views, why don't you pay a bit more attention to what your venerable liaisons between yourself and your god are doing (those psychopathic priests we are hearing lately a lot about). Focus on that and question what's going on within your own ranks, and why. Again, that sort of things (that these sickos have been doing to young children) is happening everywhere, but if you guys are claiming to be standing at higher moral grounds granted to you by your almighty god, that should not be happening among you.

    The world has changed, accept that. Your religion is not ruling the Western world any longer and has become marginal in the lives of many people today. People now prefer science and others seek spiritual connection with the Universe and our surroundings and search for what you would call god within themselves. That kind of spirituality is devoid of any kind of threats of punishment, it comes from within and is therefore the real thing. I am not afraid of a mean god, I am good to others simply because I am a good human being.

    For that reason, don't attempt to challenge anyone with questions you raised above, such as love, desire, or memory. You will not prove the existence of god as you see it by asking these questions. Any spiritual person (not religious mind you) will tell you they were contemplating the same notions and the answer is that everything is made of the same building blocks - us and everything else in the Universe. That of which these tiny building blocks of life consist and which connects all of them is what you would call god. If you happen to see any similarities between what you believe and myself, than throw your Book away and stick to the essence. The Book distracts you from the real thing.

    Greetings.

  • Kara Kittle

    WTC7,
    You know, it is easy to track your viewpoints by your responses. When a Christian says "I have faith", immediately we are challenged by the other side to prove it. The problem is, you have already shut your mind against it, so any discussion from our side becomes null and void in your opinion.

    You don't allow a Christian to respond about anything and you act like I am a "hurt little child". Unfortunately you don't realize the thick skin I have, so your posturing only shows that you assume way too much about anyone.

    Don't worry, I can do this all day long. So please, keep posturing.

    So the reasons you use to attempt to answer away with God is this...."reason, logic, intelligence..." blah blah blah.

    When you say.."you Christians need to provide proof but we don't have to provide any proof for the basis of your belief.
    And the basis of your belief is non-belief of a deity. Which at any rate does not negate the existence of deity.

    So which is your argument? Do you believe God does not exist? That still does not mean God does not exist. I ask you then to prove your statement. Does God not exist? How can you prove God does not exist? Because you don't believe? Is that how God does not exist, because of your non-belief?

    Your non-belief is not enough to disprove my belief. So please, keep posturing, keep trying.

  • Achems Razor

    @Kara Kittle:

    Again I say the onus is on you to substantiate your assumptions with some empirical evidence/proof, since all you can offer, is because the bible told me so, invalidates your attempt of transposing your verbage into any proofs that someone could take to the bank.

    Therefore what you are offering again is a classic "FAIL"

  • WTC7

    @ Kara Kittle,

    I should have known better than to engage in futile conversation about religion with a devout christian. You don't even make an attempt to read what is written, such is your attitude and that much respect you have for others.

    You mix what Epicurus, Achems Razor and me have written in three separate posts (I admire Achems and wish I knew as much as he does about some things, but I can't take credit for what he says). You don't even have the ability to distinguish what different people have said and yet you challenge someone into a philosophical discussion about the existence of god?

    But first let's clarify what is it that you would like me to prove or disprove the existence of?

    I have already told you in my previous post that we and everything else around us is made of the same 'material', as the science has already proven, and that I believe there exists some kind of connection, which we cannot observe with our eyes, between us and everything else that there is. Hence, I don't see the world from an exclusively materialistic point of view, I think there is more to it.

    But I do not believe in god as you perceive it. Because I am absolutely certain that the murderous, vindictive, impotent creature from the Old Testament, which you call Jehovah, cannot be any god.

    Hence, I admit that there is more in this Universe than meets the eye, but it doesn't determine our lives as you believe it, it is neutral in terms of human understanding of good and bad, and is certainly much more subtle than Jehovah.

    Greetings.

  • WTC7

    Besides, I agree with Epicurus that christianity certainly began its existence as a cult, on the basis of some of the existing definitions of it.

    CULT - a system of religious or spiritual beliefs, especially an informal and transient belief system regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false, and directed by a charismatic, authoritarian leader;

    CULT - a group of people who share religious or spiritual beliefs, especially beliefs regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false.

    It is quite clear that at its beginnings, christianity was regarded by the prevailing religious beliefs of the time as 'misguided', 'false' or 'extremist'.

    However, if one takes the Oxford English Dictionary definition of the 'cult' into consideration, then any religion as such or religious group could be considered a cult:

    - "worship; reverential homage rendered to a divine being or beings"
    - "a particular form or system of religious worship; especially in reference to its external rites and ceremonies"
    - devotion or homage to a particular person or thing"

    The word 'cult' comes from Latin and its original meaning is 'worship'.

  • ReligionIsntAllBad

    The problem with Christianity isnt that you have to prove to others that God exists, if you are so inclined. Everyone who believes in something greater than knowledge or concepts could convey is left with the burden of proof. The issue is that you have to convince non-Christians you are not completely nutters for believing that God impregnated a woman, Jesus rose from the dead, and all of the other things that you wouldn't actually believe if you were told had just happened down the street (and have never in recorded history been known to happen).

    I think this stems from literal interpretations and a dark history of political manipulation of religious texts and teachings ... during a pre-rational era when humans were much more fixated on myth and magic. The bible is just not that great a spiritual text for our modern age, and we are incredibly disconnected from the society that threw Jesus into such a stark relief. For instance, no one threatend to kill me today for not knowing latin, and I have never been forced to walk a mile in the desert (let alone two).

    I think if anything Christians should be proud of when Christianity was just a tiny cult of the followers of Christ, gathered around a spiritual teacher with the cojones to rebel against some of the abysmal societal norms and interpretations of God in those times.

  • Lisa

    Kara Kittle....you're my hero. Keep going girl.

  • Kara Kittle

    The problem is really not with Christianity, but against those people who claim to be Christian and defy the very edicts the Bible proclaims as virtuous.

    The vindictive God of the Bible that Richard Dawkins hawks as being those very things that I hear on these posts. Yet Richard Dawkins has not discovered a new philosophy.

    Jean-Paul Sartre has some very interesting quotes:

    No finite point has meaning without an infinite reference point.

    That God does not exist, I cannot deny, That my whole being cries out for God I cannot forget.

    Evil is the product of the ability of humans to make abstract that which is concrete.

    What infinite? Even the universe itself is finite, meaning it has a beginning and an end. He cannot forget God, yet he wishes God to not exist.

    And the most interesting is, something must be concrete. The laws of God are concrete.

    The universe, according to evolutionists, is that the universe itself was roiled in chaos. Then by chance, the universe set itself into perfect harmony with itself, down to the most minute elements.

    But yet, it is making abstract those things which are concrete that brings evil into the world. God said "thou shalt not kill". People then said, "God is now an abstract idea, therefore the commandments are become abstract." The disbelief in God is not new, even the Bible tells us that.

    That is what happened within cults, those people took a concrete, and made it abstract, to fit within their own worldview. The same as philosophy and science does.

    Sartre also says

    God is nothing. God is the the solitude of man.

    So how can God be nothing, and yet something at the same time that can be desired to be forgotten?

    I have to ask this though, within the grand scheme of Karl Marx ideology of Communism through atheism, did it work? Did atheism bring to those people any measure of relief? Did it help them? Was it beneficial by any means? Was religion really the opiate of the masses? Because it seems to me that Communism through atheism does not work, people are subjected to failure and greater poverty comes. The Marxist state of the USSR was a complete failure.

    So many of you are not atheist, but agnostic. Good for you. The problem many of you have is this, you want to deny Christianity. It is Christianity that you object to. And that is nothing new, you have not stumbled across any new ideas, even 2,000 years ago that was still the same case.

    I am a Christian. I did not inundate you with many scriptures, in fact, I did not even post one at all. But the very nature of your claim of an abstract God, you pounce on anything that proclaims faith. Then you demand proof. What rule is given that I must provide it?

    That rule is this: Belittle them at any cost by screaming reason, intellect, intelligence until you are blue in the face, demand proof and when they go against your argument, do it again and again and again until they are weary and give up.

    That is not winning, this is not a debate, and you must be as tolerant of us as you demand us to be of you. I have not seen one scripture thrown at you, yet I read only what your philosophers have made you believe.

    The proof of God's existence is in your very denial of Him.

  • WTC7

    I am not an atheist.

    Why? Because by the acceptance of the very term I would admit that I don't believe in something that exists. By accepting the term, I would admit that I see my self as opposed to something I don't believe exists. That doesn't make any sense.

    I am not an agnostic either (at least as far as it is understood in relation to contemplation of what people call god) for the same reasons.

  • Kara Kittle

    @WTC7

    Now you see the quandry that has developed. People should be able to justify their belief, whether that belief is in something or not in something. Too many people say they are something without really fully realizing what the term means, or even investigating anything about it, and then take the term as their own identity.

    Unfortunately, it makes them oftentimes so bigotted against another side, they won't admit they are. And yet they demand tolerance and acceptance from the very side they deny those same things from.

    You can say "I am not atheist, I am not agnostic either". That is ok for you to say. The only thing we ask is this, as a Christian, and as a citizen of this planet, I have the same right to expect tolerance shown toward my faith.

    Too bad that many people who go on these sites feel a need to bash anything that is not like them. That includes the atheists and agnostics. But all we hear is a recycled history of human endeavor. They blame Christians for what happened 1,000 years ago. They never blame the individuals who did it.

    Christianity is not a religion of hatred, in fact, Jesus said "love your enemies, do good to those who hurt you." That is the message we are taught.

    People seem to present Christians as never having any problems such as deaths of loved children, never having poverty and certainly Christians never themselves face persecution, abuse, violence, murder, or anything else that happens to the human race. And that is the sad thing.

    I have suffered many things in my life. As so many people have also. But to negate faith because of historical actions by mad people, is just simply wrong. It denies my fundamental right to have faith. And when any person denies another person a faith, that person is prejudiced.

    And the constant need for some people to jump on anything religious and start swinging the "reason axe" onto the necks of any person that claims faith, is what other people feel compelled to stop.

    In this country we have the right of religious expression. Certainly I might not agree with other other religions (agreement is not the same thing as intolerance), but I have to defend their right to have that expression. What has happened here on this site, is some people who are indeed atheist, attacked religions and faiths and then stomped and snorted when they were rebutted. They demanded evidence. They would not listen to anything, at the same time accusing others of not listening to them.

    The original discussion is "dangerous cults". The narrator on this episode said that Christianity is a cult. They claimed Jesus was a cult leader.

    I have heard people say for a long time that Jesus was merely a revolutionary leader. I wanted to know where they got that information from, because nothing in the Bible teaches that. What did Jesus teach that was revolutionary? Absolutely nothing new. In fact, all of His teachings, He referred back to the older Scriptures.

    And the accusation that scripture is corrupt, the Dead Sea Scrolls have a scroll that is verbatim...the Book of Isaiah. And scientific methods have been used to determine the age of them. Interesting how people accept the science of aging dinosaur bones, but not accepting the same science that dates anything religious.

    Anyway, this long post WTC7, is my attempt to let you know that yes, I hear you. And I have not called you names, nor have I pushed any scripture onto you.

    At least you have very civilly stated your belief. Thank you for that. I appreciate your last comment.

  • Joe

    @KaraKittle,

    Kara, exactly what part of 'prove it' do you not understand? Can you prove that magic rabbits on Mars don't exist? No. So what? That means they do exist? Your reasoning belongs to the mentality of a five-year-old. "You can't prove that god doesn't exist. So there!" The inability to prove something does not exist is not a basis upon which to claim that it does exist. Why is it that christians stubbornly insist on making complete idiots out of themselves in this way?
    .
    The world is becoming increasingly sick and tired of the same old patronizing moral judgment spewed by your cult. Religion is a fraud and a scam. As with any lie, religion is perfectly fair game for scorn and ridicule. Don't like it? Welcome to the real world. Get used to it. Ironically, the christian cult is lightning quick to judge anyone they don't like but it becomes hysterically defensive when 'attacked' with a few perfectly rational questions. Here's an idea for you - walk into a major science forum and claim you have an entirely new theory of quantum mechanics. When asked to explain, cite scripture and stand in contemptuous indignation and cry "You can't prove it doesn't exist." You will be laughed out of the building. So, why should religion be held to a special standard? Because otherwise it is deemed 'offensive to peoples' religious sensibilities'?
    .
    Believe in the supernatural if it makes you happy but don't pretend to be offended when your superstitious propaganda is met with ridicule.

  • Steve

    This documentary should have included the most Satanic cult of them all: Islam.

  • Tom

    The world is in such a mess and confusion is because many people do not really know the "truth" that Jesus spoke about. Jesus said: "The truth will set you free." - John 8:32
    The mass world population do not know the meaning of life, why we exist on Earth, and that Jehovah God has allowed Satan to temporarily rule this world, and that humans are given an opportunity to regain everlasting life on Earth (the same gift that was given to the first two human beings, which they threw away for themselves and their offsprings). God will soon reclaim his rulership over mankind and usher in a new kingdom (government) that will bring peace to all mankind after Satan has finished his experiment of human self-rule. (read Daniel 2:44)

    "And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." - Matthew 24:14 And then afterwards:

    "The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
    And they will reside forever upon it." - Psalm 37:29

  • Achems Razor

    @Tom:

    I see, quoting from your book of fairy tales. I should say, cherry picking?

    Web definition of a fairy tale:

    1-A fanciful tale of legendary deeds and creatures, usually intended for children.
    2-A fictitious, highly fanciful story or explanation.

    As in Revelations 12: 1-9...Will only write the first part..."A great red Dragon? having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his head?"

    There is much more of course, even gets more weirder.

    It is apparent you are only cherry picking out parts to suit your fancy, or could be you hardly know anything at all? I betcha, I an Atheist, know more about the bible/bibles than you, I mean the "real atrocious stuff" that would make the hair on the back of your neck stand up. Hmmm?

  • Tom

    Achems Razor, the entire Bible cannot be quoted on a short message board. If you truly want a candid study of the Bible, contact watchtower.org. As for your Revelations comment, the vision was SYMBOLIC! It was a vision of the future given to the apostle John and it was written in symbolic language same as the beasts described in the book of Daniel. There's a parallel.

  • Achems Razor

    @Tom:

    Don't need or want a candid study of the bible, especially JW bibles.

    Instead of taking the bibles literally the first thing that apologetics say it was "SYMBOLIC" and then make up there own scenarios. Especially of the atrocities that are prevalent in the OT.

    Anyway, am cutting of this discussion, leads nowhere.

  • Ben

    Kara Kittle,Lisa & Tom --Cheers!!
    @ the rest

    At this point,iam shocked at some of the comments the so-called atheists posted.Consider this statement,
    "Us atheist’s do not have to prove a thing. The burden of proof is always logically on the person who is asserting, namely you! So prove it, or forever be silenced"! referring to Kara Kittle.

    Reading such a note makes me conclude that some people never at all stepped in any classroom but can at least structure a few sentences in english.

    Instead, it should be vice versa. An Atheist should be the one to keep silent forever since ,after all, he is just an ignorant chap who has no capacity to reason and use common sense later on make any intelligent decision capable of being made by a 5 year old.At least a 5 yr old will answer ,my mother and father created me,when asked as who created him/her.But what will an atheist reply to the question? "I evolved from an amphibian" will be the answer. Isnt this utter nonsense?

    This is what the Holy Bible refers to Achens razor in Psalms 14: 1," A fool says in his heart,there is no God". And let me add.Whoever is in here and doesnot believe there a Supreme God who created him/her is therefore a fool! Period! These are not my words and i donot care whether you call it a fairy tales book or whatever!

    "Your reasoning belongs to the mentality of a five-year-old"

    This is what another person in here with a seemingly impaired mind wrote.Let me tell you Joe.You cannot compare yourself with Kara kittle in reasoning.Iam almost sure that if a 5year old and youself were brought to me for some intellectual diagnosis,you would come out embarassed.I have seen such people like you displaying one of the greatest cowardice on their death-beds requesting for Bibles and pastors to pray for them as they would not be sure of where they would be after breathing their last.Is that what you are waiting for?The one who created you planted eternity in you so you have no escape. You can make a fool of your self,be proud,arrogant,unleash all sorts of ignorant talk about Him but he will ,for sure,catch up with you one day when you drop dead.You have no way out.

    "........ but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way." These were the words of our Lord Jesus in Luke 13:3 telling the Pharesees of the consequences of their unbelief in Him and for their arrogancy. I see the same happening to almost all commentators in here due to your unbelief in Jesus save for a few.

    Since our level of understanding about the things of God is different,and since spiritual things cannot be understood by a mere carnal mind,non of you here have the capacity to discuss them UNLESS you believe in Jesus as one who can Save lives for eternity.This happened to Jesus at the height of His Ministry when an educated scholar by the names of Nicodemus came to Him at night desiring to know how he can enter into the Kingdom of God. In John 3:3,Jesus told him that unless a man is born again,he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.That which is born of the spirit is spirit while that born of the physical remains physical. Iam a physical being who became born again by accepting Jesus as a Savior and made my eyes see. So how can a blind person lead a person with sight to a right place? Except for a few people here who are defending and believing in Jesus,the rest are disqualified to discuss about what Jesus begun because you donot know what you are talking about.

    You are only waiting to ask for Bibles and a pastor to pray for you in your corwadice as you perish without Him.These are not my words,Read them in Luke 13:3. Stop Joking with someone who defeated the greatest enigma of mankind-DEATH.I donot care whether He was a cult leader or teamed up with prostitutes.All i know is that one day the world will once again witness the Greatest spectacle ever to rock this world when all the dead in the graves will hear his voice and come forth including the greatest imposter of all time- Mohammed -the father of all terrorists including the infamous Jews that crucified Him.

  • Achems Razor

    @Ben:

    Hilarious! at least you made me laugh with your big load of d0ggy p00.

    When all else fails revert to "Ad Hominem" attacks right? As most religee's do.
    Actually your right, I can structure sentences fairly well in the English language, considering it is my second language.

    Anyway you are a funny dude. Did not know there was religious comedy.

  • &ben

    @ Razor!

    Bye the way,i love you all in here in Jesus Name!The way i wish you could all tets of His goodness!

  • Lary Nine

    “Atheism is defined by Merriam-Webster as “the lack of belief in a deity”.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    No it's not. It's not defined as a lack of anything. It's an affirmation of disbelief in a supernatural deity.
    Also, I've written several articles on the derivative morality from an exclusively naturalistic view of the world. These standards of ethical behavior have as much "a priori goodness" as the Ten Commandments.

  • Joe

    @Ben:

    "Instead, it should be vice versa. An Atheist should be the one to keep silent forever... " Why? Because you realize you don't have any logical argument? So you can be free to indoctrinate little kids? Christians are the ones that for centuries have been forcing their superstition down peoples' throats but for some reason, you become hysterical and defensive when asked to prove your claims. Typical christian. Who cares what your holy book refers to? It's a collection of bronze-age myths written by a bunch of cattle-sacrificing primitives.
    .
    " This is what another person in here with a seemingly impaired mind wrote.Let me tell you Joe.You cannot compare yourself with Kara kittle in reasoning.Iam almost sure that if a 5year old and youself were brought to me for some intellectual diagnosis,you would come out embarassed.I have seen such people like you displaying one of the greatest cowardice on their death-beds requesting for Bibles and pastors to pray for them as they would not be sure of where they would be after breathing their last.Is that what you are waiting for?The one who created you planted eternity in you so you have no escape. You can make a fool of your self,be proud,arrogant,unleash all sorts of ignorant talk about Him but he will ,for sure,catch up with you one day when you drop dead.You have no way out. "
    .
    Blah, blah, blah, you'll be sorry, blah, blah,... repent or perish,... blah blah blah, spiritual things cannot be understood by a mere carnal mind, blah, blah,... you have no escape, blaaah, blaaah,... he will ,for sure,catch up with you one day,... yabba yabba, blab, blab, .......
    .
    Nothing condescending or patronizing about christians is there?
    .
    Ben, - stop ranting like a psychopath.
    .
    Oh, and another thing, - Jesus is as dead as a door nail. Get over it.

  • Tom

    People who are dead still have hope! "...there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Act 24:15)

    Humans are endowed with "free will", the ability to make moral choices. God gave humans relative freedomm, not absolute freedom. When the first 2 humans chose to alienate or rebel (by taking the forbidden fruit which was a test of their obedience), they implicitly said "they didn't need God anymore". Hence, they grew old, got sick and die (sinned). We inherit the same defects and therefore, we also die. But this will soon change after Armageddon. "..It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step." (Jeremiah 10:23) After Satan's experiment of human self-rule is over, God will reclaim his rulership (which is the theme of the Bible). "And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; and you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace." (Psalm 37: 10,11) Yes, humans are meant to live forever on Earth, friends! “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice [the voice of Jesus] and come out.” (John 5:28, 29)

  • Achems Razor

    @Tom:

    Where in the h5ll do lunatic, completely 1d10t1c l00nie people like you come from? from mental institutions?

    "People who are dead still have hope"??? do you even realize how st00pid that sounds??

    Go and crawl back into your hole! Arhggg!

  • Patrick

    @Tom

    By any chance are you morman?

  • Tom

    @Achems Razor and Patrick:

    No. I didn't come from a mental institution. My parents are non-practicing Budhists, but who are more atheists than anything. So, I was an atheist (based on evolution I learnt in school). However, I always wondered about the origin of matter and the contradiction of the human desire to live on and the inevitability of death. I wondered: Why would evolution give us the desire to live on and the concept of eternity if we are meant to live only some 70 odd years? I also wondered about the "first cause" that brought matter and the universe into existence. Not only what caused it, but more importantly why. I deeply pondered over this for days.

    Then, one morning, two Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on my door and they were able to explain it by quoting the Bible! I was skeptical at first, but eventually I learned more about life and human purpose on Earth as I studied on.

    I feel sad that many people do not want to examine the Bible thoroughly and open-mindedly for themselves. He does not force anyone to worship Him, but he desires it. That's why He doesn't reveal his sovereignty now (that's why the last book of the Bible is called "Revelation" which means "apocalypse"). He want people to have the same choice as Adam and Eve. If He reveals His authority now, people will worship Him based on morbid fear...and He doesn't want that type of worship. He wants people to worship out of reverential fear and gratitude for the gift of life.

    "Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

    “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

    God's Kingdom (or government) will soon remove Satan's world system at Armageddon and usher in the millenial reign of Christ to restore mankind to perfect health and restore the Earth into a paradise similar to the Garden of Eden. This world under Satanic influence is hanging on it's last thread. When the preaching and Bible educating work is completed to God's satisfaction, the modern day "ark" will be slammed shut. Jesus compared the "last days" to Noah's day:

    “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be." (Matthew 24:36-39)

  • Patrick

    @Tom

    Ok Tom,If religion has given you peace and made you a stronger person(and not wants you to kill) then best wishes to you....but be leary of cramming religion down other peoples throats.There's a big differance between forced religion and ones' prefferanced religion

  • Achems Razor

    You know Tom, you were doing good until you started quoting your JW bible. Turned me off completely, cant religee's talk about something in their own words instead of quoting bronze age scripture and myths?

    Why are JW's so gung-ho about getting recruits, is there brownie points?
    They are basically the only ones that go door to door except the Mormons.

    Stop as Patrick said, ramming your religion down peoples throats! except I may have said it more harshly.

  • Tom

    @Achems and Patrick

    Sorry many of you do not like Bible quotes. But just so others know, Jesus and the 1st century Christians DID preach from "house to house". The preaching work is a requirement of ALL Christians. (Act 20:20, Matthew 24:14, Matthew 28:19)

    Sorry Patrick, I wasn't trying to cram info down anyone's throat. I was trying to answer your question and Achems' in the same response. As long as Satan's world is allowed to continue, mankind will remain disunited and there's no real peace. (John 14:30, 1John 5:19, Revelation 13:2) I'll stop commenting from here on. Take care all.

  • over the edge

    @tom
    this post has a bit of humor in it but it also has a serious side. as a jw i assume you don't celebrate Halloween (a childhood friend was a jw and his family didn't celebrate so i assume jw as a whole don't please correct me if i am wrong). it is a christian/pagan celebration where they go door to door showing their faith so why do you not allow others to do to you once a year what you do regularly?

  • http://FatalTruth.com d.e.goodman

    WTC7 is right. It is time Christianity reaps what it has sewn. After the Inquisition, and all the other atrocities caused "in the name of the Lord;" it is time for the pendulum to swing the other way. Or in Eastern religious terms, KARMA. It's "time to pay the piper." That's a good one about the JW's "OTE." They are hypocritical and don't even know it. Just like Christians who judge you and then preach, "Judge-not." Tom needs a lesson in world religion. AND Metaphysics. Read about the Sumerians tommy boy. Pat's right about how Christians of all kinds, try to spew their belief in "talking snakes" and "parting the waters of a sea, with the way of a staff, held by a deluded man. Belief in a "man" who walked on water; not realizing it is a parable of the "REFLEXION OF THE SUN," OFF THE WATER. Christianity is nothing more than SUN-worship changed to ANTHROPOMORPHIC belief. "They" never make the connection, because preachers LIE and MISLEAD people uneducated in world religions. All to many people "choose" the religion of their parents and never ask the right questions, therefore never getting the right answers. It's sad you know. If more people "practiced what they preach" this would be a much nicer world. And razor, try being nice to the Bible-totters, "they know not what they do." Poor "tom" can't make up his mind, if he is a "creationist" or an "evolutionist?" But that's how most Christian FUNDAMENTALISTS are. They just don't know what to think.

  • http://FatalTruth.com d.e.goodman

    One last think "tommy boy" WHAT-IF the Bible was written by "Satan" to DECEIVE you? (I don't believe in him, either) Wouldn't that be a hoot? Just suppose the gay-man "paul" got-paid by the Jews to invent Christianity to be THEIR Military arm?

    To murder millions, and use "it is God's will" as an excuse? That way, the Jews wouldn't have to take the blame for the evil they create. I'm surprised you can "see" that it WASN'T PILOT that killed your man, it was the Jewish Priests! So I give you credit for uncovering that myth. Speaking of Myths, even Moses was a copy of Sargon. "Found floating in a basket, by a princess and raised by her."

    Same exact story. And please, spare me the COP-OUT "Satan did that to fool us," CRAP! If Satan lives, he does so by conning YOU into believing there's some "God" out-there; listening to all your moaning and prayers. All 6 billion at once. "Knows the name of all the stars." Yea, sure "he" does. Since you love to quote the Bible so much, it says that "God" is a SPIRIT. Well then, HOW can he have a "sex?"

    Without having a body? Find me the explanation for that! It AINT there."Men" who WROTE the Bible, SAY it is a "HE." When even a child knows, NOTHING was ever born, WITHOUT A WOMAN. "Immaculate conception?"

    Oh sure, I believe that one. Like Clinton said, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." Yea, I believe him too. The NT was written by the Piso family and NOT by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Those names were used because if the Piso's signed the NT, no one would believe it. They had to USE those names. Capeesh? Oh hell, what's the use? "Might as well be talking to the wall."

  • Jack1952

    All creatures try to survive. It is an imperative of life. When man began to think in the abstract, he started to wonder what happened after he died. Abstract thinking is what allowed us to contemplate eternity. Evolution is not a living thing but a process. That process for different reasons gave us the ability to ponder the meaning of life. This does not prove the existence of God; it only allows us to ask the question.

  • 2012_2012

    Tom
    Achems hates Christians and God so no use reasoning with him he trolls and flags me to the administrator every time I defend God.

  • 2012_2012

    I hope God takes everything you own and leaves you in the doggy poo then you'd have a reason to hate him.

  • 2012_2012

    @&ben
    Thank You

  • 2012_2012

    Well Said

  • 2012_2012

    Yah, Achems knows about the bible because he teaches theology but doesn't believe a word of it.

  • Guest

    Guess I better log in to see what the trolls have to say.

  • David

    Well Cults, or Religion, all the same, it is all a scam, a fairy tale, Muslim religion and Christian religion - - - both are cults of death, intolerance, deceit, fear, and abuse, condoning slavery, abuse, and all the other atrocities that go against all the human rights. They have nothing to do with faith. The only thing is - - - that those two are at the moment the most successful in bullshiting people - - - -

  • Jack1952

    A cult is religion run amuck. Angry hateful people will use religion to justify the rot inside themselves. Good people find the good in religion (love thy neighbor, love God, help the poor, etc). Your brush paints not only the house but the windows, the lawn, the roof and everything in its way. Get a smaller brush and focus on what has to be painted.

  • Jack1952

    @ Tom
    To add to what Patrick says; understand why you believe the things you do. Many religious types are so smug in the knowledge of their own redemption and are so comfortable with the belief in the terrible retribution that is coming to all those who do not think exactly as they do. That is the feeling of superiority that allows the atrocities committed in God's name. You quote those verses like they must be the truth without understanding that they are only true for you. Discuss your beliefs with those who wish to hear them. Welcome that discussion like welcoming a friend into your home. Don't kidnap a victim and force your hospitality on them and show amazement when that victim reacts negatively to your unsolicited good will.
    Your quotes also come off as being condescending and can only lead to the rancor that you have experienced from a lot of the posts here.

  • David

    I can agree with you on that one, but also good people in the end don't need religion to teach them what is right and what is wrong . . . .

  • Jack1952

    You don't need religion to tell what is right and wrong but some people seem to need the promise of a reward if they do right.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_AQNVW5JXEQXG4WJXI2COA5X32E David T

    Good to hear the this documentary at the beginning stated that Christianity was a CULT started by an Carpenters son.
    Amen!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Myra-McQueen/100000136123892 Myra McQueen

    I have to say that the writer who accuses Christ of being cultish, is most likely a power monger himself. He just wants to control people's thinking, like the other cults who rearrange history and the Bible. I suppose this is related to the fact that they have some proof of their theories?? but they don't give it.

  • atheismo

    Myra McQueen, Christianity was a cult. This is a historical fact.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Myra-McQueen/100000136123892 Myra McQueen

    Right, and so is abuse of any who dare to challenge those "historical facts." IOW feel free to oppress those who are not true believers of "the facts"-right? Don't ask questions. Just swallow whatever you are spoonfed by the oppressor.

  • http://profiles.google.com/monique.aube M A

    He did give the proof. :P It was a figurehead who led people by their beliefs in such a way that he is the leader, the chosen one. It's not necessarily a bad thing, I think you're only catching the negative connotation of the word 'cult'.
    Christianity has been a huuuge advocate of thought control of the masses for the past 1000 years or so. Talk about calling the kettle black. :)

  • 815Sox

    Actually, "religion run amuck" does not meet the definition of a cult. Many would say that Christianity is religion run amuck. Look at how much damage Christian Conservatives have done and are doing to the USA right now. That does not mean they are a cult.

    Cults have to be led by a person who claims to be divine and have a direct line to god. They also have to have patterns of thought control and are very resistant to both the outside world and criticism of their beliefs. Cults often demand that the member only associate with those in the Cult. If a members family disapproves than they often want them to cut out that family member or bring the family member into the fold.

  • Jack1952

    @ 815Sox

    "Religion run amuck" definitely does not define but it is a description of this aberration. The classic example of an ordinary family going to weekly services or mass is a long way from Jimmy Jone's group. I would say, however, that many of the followers of Jones started in a "normal" church setting. Jimmy Jones started as a traditional preacher but became a pariah to mainstream Christianity as he fell deeper into a religious insanity; dragging his followers with him. Many cults start out normal or exude a normal facade but when the downward spiral starts it happen very quickly. Cult leaders quite often believe what they preach. Their insanity causes them to lose all touch with reality.

    There are Muslim groups who would fall into the cult classification...although in the West it is easy to believe that Islam is one large cult. Upon closer inspection, we see that there is as huge a diversity of ideas and levels of fanaticism as in Christianity.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1535930377 Thien Warder

    There's also interesting and tragic case of the Falun Gong in China, where they are just a Taoist new-agers with a knack for exercise. But the party declare them a dangerous cult and subject the practitioner to murderous torture and rumored of organ theft from their bodies.

  • Rudeprude2u

    Christianity may be many things.. if one reads a REAL DICTIONARY ( Oxford-English, for example) one will learn that Christainity fits the definition Christians accuse other religions of being. Christianity has taken a lot of perfectly good words and through misapplication and abuse, changed their meanings forever to something bad.

    Christians like to think their God created everything. I view this as a cheap attempt to steal the DEED TO THE UNIVERSE (as well all other Universes)

    Christians travel at the SPEED OF DARK

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Chad-Forrest-Montgomery/727723705 Chad Forrest Montgomery

    YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! So there are a few messed up cults but not all cults are like this Christianity is worse then most these anyways thousands murder'd Jews did their share of killing to... No better no less

  • pop777

    'i am a messianic jew myself' and by what i've seen yes many religons have caused trouble but also so have atheists but i dont judge in the end everyone believes in something even those who claim atheism they believe in evolution and so forth but yet it is still something maybe not a religon but a belief non the less. i dont ever try to push my beliefs down ones throught and i find it sick that many do. i would hate it if someone came pushing their beliefs on to me and so i am not trying to push anyone into anything but i beleive in one god and his son. i believe in loving others and showing respect to all people weather they are gay or just rude it dosent mean i agree with it at all but just as i would like to have respect from others i give others the same and some times i dont get it but i dont go hanging of the rails sceaming for it. this is nothing personal to you jack1952 i just wanted to put on this page that believing in something isnt the bad thing here because all people believe in something weather it is classed as a religon or not and the way someone would chose to live their lives is non of anyone elses buisness but their is a places and lines you do not cross no matter what circumstance or whatever excuse people have weather religios or not. faith isnt the issue i believe and whatever someone has to say weather for or agaist what i have to say is their opion and their belief and i'll leave it as it is but i think its rather the people. how many murderers have you seen that are not religios and those who are thats all im saying.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Muhura-Naomi/1851920151 Muhura Naomi

    What a good documentary...it's such a shame that people put themselves in those positions and are so blinded by what they strongly believe

  • lamed

    Ever read the book by
    Jean - Marie Abgrall,
    Soul Snatchers:
    The Mechanics of Cults?

    Another 'eye/ayin' opener.

    Possibly avaible in 'pdf'.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/JXBCBZUM77LGGRIISJPV3IMMEE John

    EVERY organized religion is a cult.

  • Momoftwo2012

    WOW! This was eye opening, disturbing and so sad. Shocking as well to see the baby laying on the ground dead:( Alot of people have commented and said well why could the people not see what was happening. I can honestly say that I have been in those people's shoes. I was totally oblivious to what was going on. I went to Pentecostal church's and revival meetings and was very very fanatical years ago about my beliefs. What snapped me out was that I became very depressed and felt very isolated and began questioning God and my family as to why would God want me to feel this way. I went for counselling and read a book called" Spiritual Abuse". I am sorry that I don't know the author but that book opened my eyes and as I began reading it, I realized that I was a victim of Spiritual Abuse. The bible was being used to control and manipulate not used as a book to learn stories. I have witness first hand lots of things and watching this and flashing back makes me wonder how I would have reacted if someone who I totally looked up to and someone who I thought was a church family member turned and became violent or abusive sexually or whatever. A friend of mine was helping a man named Dennis Goodell who had claimed to be a prophet of God travel to south Korea to preach. He was in a wheel chair and needed their help what they thought was to sell his merchandise there. When my friend came back she had told me that he got her to help him go to the wash room and asked her if she could also help him get off. I was so disturbed and shocked, but her parents said to me at the time that we should just let it go because Men of GOd make mistakes and we should forgive. yadda yadda. I think that people are looking for love and acceptance in religion or in there church. When that church becomes a close nit family, the leader could very well become power hungry and corrupt. I really enjoyed this documentary and how thorough it was, Thanks for posting. For all those who are involved in organised religion be wise to listen to your heart and not the man who is preaching because he says that the very words he speaks are from God. I encourage you to question and then question some more. Be aware that some of these leaders get caught up and lost and can manipulate the truth for whatever reason. Sorry if i have offended anyone, just speaking from experience.

  • Betty Phillips

    Cults are a sad thing. Bless anyone who has only a cult to turn to.

  • Betty Phillips

    I better mention the so called Mormon is not a Mormon. Mormons do not rape.

  • Nngak2

    @ 7:36 That scripture is found in the book of mormon 3rd nephi chapter 12 v27- Behold it is written by them of old time, that thou shalt not commit adultery; v28 But i say unto you, that whosoever Looketh on a women to lust after her hath already commited adultary in his heart. This video is not facts at all.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/KSIY3PAPK3Q4XMMXXTRMLQPAFU Sam

    good documentary, shame History Channel didn't have the balls to say the US Government killed all those people at Waco. But all in all, was a very interesting watch.

  • http://www.facebook.com/CraigStamper1 Craig Stamper

    So, you sympathized with Koresh?

  • Sarah Zacharias

    I don't believe for one minute that Christianity is a cult. Too often Christianity has been taken by individuals and manipulated into what fits them. Christianity isn't about religion at all, true Christianity is about persueing relationship with Christ, salvation, and sharing the Good News with others. It's about humbling yourself and living a life of love for Jesus Christ and love for others, that's all.

  • Achems_Razor

    You talk as if your Christ was around the corner, show us your big JC, ah wait! only in your mind after all!

  • Tara

    Interesting documentary, but I found the tone of voice of the narrator so upleasantly and inappropriately exited, almost randy at times (especially when talking about the child wives) that I nearly quit several times.

  • a_no_n

    We all know what happened at Waco...I don't really think it's a big secret that the government did what they did...That's also not really the point of the doc.

  • a_no_n

    Catholics say the same thing