Iraq's Secret War Files (WikiLeaks Special)

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Iraq's Secret War Files (WikiLeaks Special)In the biggest official files leak in history nearly 400,000 Iraq war logs reveal the massive scale of civilian deaths and new torture allegations following an investigation by Channel 4's Dispatches.

Channel 4 News has accessed the data in the classified documents via The Bureau of Investigative Journalism and WikiLeaks.

The only TV doc to have advance access to the biggest Wikileaks release ever. This is what really happened during the Iraq war, not what the US PR machine of the time wanted us to believe. The reality behind the civilian death count; al-Qaeda's fictitious presence; torture, torture and more torture. A wall of truth revealing unprecedented levels of unwarranted aggression.

Dispatches, Channel 4's flagship current affairs strand, exposes the full and unreported horror of the Iraqi conflict and its aftermath, revealing the true scale of civilian casualties and allegations that even after the scandal of Abu Ghraib, American soldiers continued to abuse prisoners.

And that US forces did not systematically intervene in the torture and murder of detainees by the Iraqi security services. The programme also features previously unreported material of insurgents being killed while trying to surrender.

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324 Comments / User Reviews

  1. Ramus

    Aaaaaaargh, frickin Channel 4 blocking it. How come I cant watch a British made film in Britain but you guys across the pond can? No fair.

  2. Peter

    Pretty slanted. Some cases were certainly horrendous and inexcusable, but war is war. I believe this is a far left view of what happened. Never once did I hear of the horror in which the soldiers felt, or how the suicide bombers and militia dressed and carried on amongst the civilians. Why not place blame with them? I guess the video is somewhat informative, but offers more opinion that I like, or it would be much more credible

  3. Imightberiding

    Just once I would like to see these lying, gung-ho, war mongering, abusive, selfish, narrow minded, greedy, self serving, God bless America basterds held accountable for their actions. But to whom, how & when I ask you? They believe them selves infallible & it is this presumption on which they act. They do what ever they want where ever they want & never face any reasonable consequences for their abhorrent behavior. Ooooooooh Dammit I get so frustrated.

  4. Imightberiding

    Sorry about my language. To all you Americans reading this. I have lived in your fine country & have many dear friends from there. Almost without exception you are all wonderful people. I truly had a great time living there & will say that I even did quite well for myself while living & working in your great country. It's the mucky mucks & your foreign policies/war machine that I get so frustrated with.

  5. Darnell

    @Peter

    But war is war????

    It is this kind of attitude that helps perpetuate the problem. "Oh well what can we do..." A b@##$%^& excuse.

  6. Farren

    Amen Imightberiding.

    What we have is a group of people with enormous power (economic, military) who keep getting into others' business. They lack the Christian ethics they claim to have. They are extremely selfish, and so ignorant that they don't understand that much of the "terrorism" that has grown over the last several decades is due to their own hostile actions. Much is not reported in the mainstream media. There is so much going on out of the public's awareness. And by now, the American public is so mind-numbed by constant entertainment and instant gratification, few of them even care.

  7. keeb

    i have one question, it shows in the video both u.s. pesident Bush and u.k. P.M. Blair saying they are responsible for the actions of their countries military in iraq; so why are they not on trial for war crimes?

  8. esmuziq

    sick

  9. MIchael22541

    I am so ashame. My apologies to all those poor civilians who just want to go on with their everyday life.

  10. Ballsrog

    An entity as big as a government will never and can never have a heart. Thus the need for it to be small and only as well armed as the people.

    I have seen first hand unbelievable corruption at home. Nothing we do abroad should surprise anyone.

    Come on people! United we can bring about logic to the world!

    row row fight the powah!

  11. Achems Razor

    Watched all, knew some of this before, via the net, on various websites.

  12. kittybrat

    Thank you for including this video in your website. It is important. I am ashamed and sickened. Thank goodness for WikiLeaks.
    War crimes are crimes no matter who commits them. These are crimes.

  13. Samusakis

    Ok I can't hold it any longer so I'll just say what I think.

    1. I live in Lithuania (nothing special) we here are passive people. There are alot of nonsense going on in our goverment and protests are common, but generally we take it in the ass and are unwilling to change anything. Having said that we had a bloody guerrilla war with the Russians which we never actually won (although it's more complicated than that). My point is that, even though they were killing us in fleash and soul, we survived only becouse we beleved in freedom and a better future for our kids. How is that any different from what is now going on in the middle east?

    2. After all the suffering and loss and all that good stuff that we had back in a day, now everyone is like 'OMFG!! what if these "terrorist" decide to atack us!?' Well gee all I see is a bunch of civilians that live in poverty and some freedom fighters with a AK-47s going up agains the invaders that whant to destroy their culture, society and as many people as posible while using the most advanced military force in the world! Ye thats a totaly fair game! Everyone is welcome to join the fight and help Americans win EVEN MORE!

    3. Now whats really scarry to me personaly is that my goverment and people are so dumb and damn straight missguided that they even consider having future elections via internet, and we send troops to war that is not even worth fighting! And yet it's still incomprehencive that anyone can feel sorry for the invading force and its troops! How many died? What was the point of it? What, to kill civilians and die like a real man holding a mashinegun pointed at the civilians? Be honest with yourself do you feel sorry for the storm troopers in Star Wars?

  14. Pete Bollini

    Too bad they didn't think of the probable results of their action before going in. Probably the higher ups just didn't care; money was to be made and it was only the Iraqis who would be harmed mostly. A few Americans owuld be killed, but that is the price to be paid...for what, I might ask? The damage is done and the USA will be more deeply hated than ever before. All in the name of "freedom".

  15. Jim Elliot

    @ keeb

    I don't know what happened in Britain but what the Bush administration did just before leaving office was pass a bill that no matter what is discovered about the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, no one from his administration nor any afterward shall be held criminally responsible.

    "It's so good to be the King" - Mel Brooks in A History of the World Part One.

  16. Jim Elliot

    I am so relieved that a group like Wikileaks has been able to gain access to the US's own internal documents to show that what everyone knew in their hearts to be happening over there, did in fact happen. Despite the largest worldwide protest in history, the United States still went into Iraq. Despite the chief nuclear inspector's assessment that Iraq was not building weapons of mass destruction, the United States still went into Iraq.Despite the fact that Al Quaeda had no ties with Iraq, the United States still went into Iraq. When Saddam had civilians murdered, it was called tyranny. When the United States army killed civilians, it was called democracy in action. So much has been discovered about what really happened in Iraq in so few years. Imagine how much more we will know ten years from now. When they hanged Saddam, I could not believe that the coalition forces and governments could ever call their behavior civilized in comparison to the criminal they had executed. There is nothing but shame to go around regarding the US involvement in Iraq.

  17. SimonTheSorcerer

    @Samusakis
    Really good comment wish all brainwashed, militaristic, bigot catholic Americans would read it but then again they would probably not understand it. You see to read you need light and its prety dark when you have your face all the way up your ass. :)
    And actually they are not just welcome to join in but through the NATO they are obliged even my countrymen from Hungary are there for what reason We have no idea.

  18. princeton

    @ peter
    "Never once did I hear of the horror in which the soldiers felt, or how the suicide bombers and militia dressed and carried on amongst the civilians."

    ok.. that is really f'in St00pid
    don't get me wrong.. half my family is military, and I live near the largest military installation in the Us (fort hood) so I know many soldiers who've been in Iraq personally and meet many more daily through my job and business.
    I feel no pity for their experience over there.. most of them are just money hungry (like my dad who volunteered for extra pay) and are willing to go to warzone & kill for cash. forget the patriotic hooplah.. its all about the Benjamins, and actions speak louder than words.
    to talk about what some guy who's getting paid to fly halfway around world to go help an invasion in comparison to the poor people who just happen to live there and can't get out if they tried.. is just f'in st00pid and shows no empathy or compassion whatsoever.
    I don't care what costume someone is wearing, murder is murder and kidnapping is kidnapping..
    you sir, have officially disgusted me!

    @simonthesorcerer

    I kinda agree, but calm down with the American bashing. its 300 million of us, and only a few million of us are actually doing this sort of thing. most of us don't approve or are too busy trynna keep the bills paid and mouths fed to worry about what crazy rich political fanatics are doing with their time. its all about perspective (but f* the soldiers though, guns for hire never get love from me)

  19. stp

    jaw dropping

  20. SimonTheSorcerer

    @princeton
    Its democracy baby ! Most of you voted for them and therefore your goverment is the representation of your collective will or at least should be(if not thats your problem). I dont have time, will , resouces to adress research every individual American's politicial beliefs or his relations to his nation's war on terror. You should have been already used to simplification on the net.

  21. princeton

    @ simonthesorcerrer

    well by that logic, you are no different. as you said
    "even my countrymen from Hungary are there for what reason We have no idea."
    oh yeah.. and democracy is a sham.. not much research is needed to realize that we (the masses) do not have any control over the political agenda
    43 presidents all related to each other and you think we actually have choice, what a mockery!
    it is a system that has been put into place over millenia and is a virus feasting upon all of humanity, not just America. an infection of sorts designed to exploit people's desire to do good for the service of those who want to dominate others.
    I am used to simplification, but that is a bit hypocritical considering you have just about as much control of your local mafia as we do, and our mafia has more guns and power to do what it wants.
    think globally, not nationally.. or else you are no better than the people you bash!
    comparing governments is like cattle bragging about how "nice" their farmers are to other sheep.. not very enlightened in my opinion, considering you will end up on a dinner plate either way!

  22. Imightberiding

    @keeb/Samusakis/Jim Elliot/SimonTheSorcerer re:princeton

    It is exactly all these things that you have touched on that frustrate the hell out of me! & I don't mean sexually. lol

  23. Kundal

    Very Sad information of the ground reality....... This is just going to breed more generations of hatred between the Iraqis & the US Societies.

    Imagine generations of men wiped out coz of war in Iraq, which will further take that country deeper into violence, anarchy & overall Hatred.

    And no mention has been made about the impact of this war on the people of US...... The young men & women from the army will come back to US with the memories of war, psychological stresses of war & will definitely have major problems assimilating in society.

    All this for the FEW Power Brokers in the US Govt wanted to make some money..... So Sad

  24. Achems Razor

    Am mostly in agreement with @princeton: except from the soldiers perspectives, there is percentages in everything, not all the troops would like to be there, but some might for extra pay, or to get into the action, why they joined in the first place, how many times have you heard that in the war movies? want to get into the action, the sick joy of killing, right?

  25. Micka

    @everyone

    Me personally... I don't give a f@#$ about the war and who dies and or wins. I don't concern myself with things i have no part in and don't feel the slightest bit of empathy to anyone who dies that i do not know be it solider, or innocent civilians i really just dont care. Also i hate america and americans. Now how about for some truth.

    Will be funny to see now how people try project there own morals onto each other...or will they now that they know people will be watching for it....

  26. SimonTheSorcerer

    I stand by what I have said. Notice I've written : "Most of you voted for them and therefore your goverment is the representation of your collective will or at least should be"
    Notice I've written should be. As for why we send troops there the NATO agreement of course. Everyone complains but then after we've done we sit on our asses. Why complain ? We have comfortable lives at least most of us cars, home, family. It is still better then what was before at least here, which was communism up until 1990 . Of course this system has its own issues/problems but I believe it is the best one so far. So once again I stand by what I said and if you don't like how things are currently STFU or do something about it. Till then many more people will die.....

  27. SimonTheSorcerer

    I for one vote for doing something about it that is why I'm a Transhumanist and spread Transhumist ideas and donate to Transhumanist organization . Not much but at least they seem to be offering some new way of thinking or solution maybe .

  28. Farren

    a few people have spoken about their lack of empathy and care about situations like this. i used to be in the same camp. i used to think that nothing really mattered in life, once it was over.

    i have learned through much research and personal experience that things like empathy and care for all fellow humans and animals is important. there is something to be accounted for after this temporary life is over, and it's in our far best interests to strive to live by that now, while we have the choice. im not talking about any religion or naive idea of "heaven" or "hell". im talking about reality that is much more complex and better than that. religion is filled with stories and political agendas. but spirituality is real and the essence of each of our "personalities" is not the brain but a energy pattern that continues after physical death.

  29. ez2b12

    @ Imightberiding

    It's alright man, I live in the US and I am just as frustrated as you. We should be frustrated when you think about it. Contrary to Simon's over simplification of democracy and Micka's pathetic rant, we are pretty much powerless but if we are human we feel compassion, its natural. What do we do about it? I have no idea man, I wish I did. I try to vote for those I think are trying to bring back common sense in the US, but often that candidate doesn't even exist. The propaganda here against Islam and Muslims is a very powerful and complicated machine, especially for the religious which I am not. The average person has issues picking their away through to the truth. We could become cold and callous like Micka, but I for one just don't want to be that way. It is that very type of indifference that allows Bush and Cheney and hundreds of others like them to worry about nothing but profit and power.

    By the way Micka, the reason we try and project healthier morality on others we deem unmoral is because we all have to live together and may need someones help or compassion one day. The reason we feel concern for others that are thousands of miles away is because they to are human and if it can happen to them it can happen to us and you, though I know that scares you too badly to admit it. I'm sure you are of the niave conception that you will be the only person in the history of the world to exist in perfect isolation and have no need for others compassion or assistance. Besides if you truly didn't care why did you bother posting your selfish and niave rant? If you are telling the truth and feel no connection to others at all, I feel sorry for you. More positive than negative comes from that connection, but you already know that don't you. No one is an island tough guy.

  30. ez2b12

    @ simon

    Though you obviousely over simplify indirect democracy I have heard you talk of what was it, Transhumanism, enough that i am going to check it out. I hope it is all you crank it up to be. You really should not demonize people in the US though. We are trying to correct a good situation gone bad. We have found over the years of watching other failing countries, like your own, however that revolution and violence is not usually the answer. Real change takes time. It may come to revolution but I doubt it. In the past we have been able to pull ourselves back from the brink without such disruptive and ill concieved ideas most of the time. Indirect democracy has gotten too indirect and our governments actions no longer represent the will of the people. That said Hungary has been no picture of sucess and you admit that you are comfortable with the current status quo, so maybe you should STFU.

  31. Brian

    Another war in attempts to prop up a government that is American friendly. Saddam was doing just fine when he was in our pockets. Foolish, foolish man. Doesn't he know we can saddle up a war for any reason get public opinion and then do it.

  32. charlesovery

    I am glad to see others comments on here from other countries and different cultures.

    With being an American I must say that I love the people of our country but I hate our government and everything it stands for. Our foriegn policy has reached a hieght where it is nothing more than propaganda agendas. There is hardly any reason at all that we should be going to some war every 5 or 6 years. The only reason is to suppress the rest of the world so thta they can not become a threat to our government. We the people of this country are divided on this as some believe that our government does the right thing while the other half knows that what our government does is nonsense power hungry bullying.

    When I was in the Navy I ran into a gentleman from Ireland who had the point of view about our government as i do now. I reacted to him in anger and now I regret that as he wsa right and I should have listened more clearly to his point of views. At the time though I was brainwashed into believing in supporting the government without question. A complete blind obedience no matter how wrong it was. This is why it so hard to reflect change in our country in our country. It is why it is so hard to re-establish our government.

    I honestly wish thta at some point we the people of this country can stand up and abolish our government. Reform then into what it was suppose to be and not what it has become.

    To all the Iraqies and other countries that have suffered at the hands of our government I am deeply saddened and sorry.

  33. TheQueenOfCheese

    “I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.”

    It's amazing that people do not expect this to happen. Technology and shiny weapons make the public think that war is sterile and precise. Civilian death is not only outrageous but seems to be surprising. Yes yes, we can drop a bomb from 2 miles up precisely onto a bunker...but thats not the orders.
    We've seen trench warfare and that was terrible... then Blitzkrieg and we were horrified... now the time has come for us to put something new into our history books...economic warfare, would anyone support this term?

    The bullets are not made to kill, the injured, the veterans cost a lot more in the long term. and with the whole country having to be rebuild..god! how much money can be made there...

    sorry...im just ranting

    im so ashamed that my government joined that oil crusade. Now even more i feel that protesting wasn't enough. It's a shame we never thought about a coup...there was enough of us.

  34. ez2b12

    @ TheQueenOfCheese

    I do not know where you are from but here in the US no realistically achievable number would be enough for a coup, nor would I want one. We need to restructure the way the government works, get rid of the pay for play politics and multi-million dollar campaingns- return the government action to the actual will of the people. But we do not need to totally abolish or destroy our government. That would produce a state of confusion that would allow any charismatic leader to rise and take control, no matter how evil or wrong his agenda was. It has happened many times in other countries and probably would here, power vacuums are very dangerous. Our own ignorance and complacency allowed things to get where they are here, why would that ignorance just disappear in the face of mass confusion and lawlessness?

    That said it is great to see people have an opinion at all and want to change things, so I salute that. It means we are maybe a quarter of the way to real change. Lets not muck it up by acting rashly out of anger. We need to do the research and truly think about where we want things to go, then make a sensible plan and get started executing it. Not just run out and start overthrowing governments with no one even in mind to take control nor a system hashed out for them to act through. Their are many to feed, shelter, deseases to worry about, complicated economic concerns- it's not a simple thing.

    Right now in the US the tea party and the republicans have seized on this desire for change. People forget they are who got us here in the first place, at least the republicans are and the tea party is just republicans in disguise, maybe a little more racist and whacky but practicly the same thing. I agree the democrats have not done a great job of affecting change, still we should have our heads checked for putting the whackos or the people that got us here back in power. I know the majority here disagree with me though, so what happens, happens I guess. I think in the long run we will be sorry for this knee jerk response though.

  35. carrious

    I really wonder if this is actually watched by our political leaders such as Obama, Bush, T.Balir. I would also like to know, what exactly their responds to this mass murder of it? Why isn't this showed in our daily news? why isn't this shared with their own people? Was this bigger mass murdered than what happened in Germany from their views or they simply going to say it doesn't bother us because now we give you safer place at back home.

  36. ez2b12

    @ carrious

    Good questions. I don't think this is as many people as WW2 in Germany though. I may be wrong though, who knows what really happens. They show us what they want us to see, and just enough extra to make us think we know the truth. I imagine it would be hard for anyone there to get video out, even on the net. Its just wrong even if its not as many, they have actually told us now that we are no longer fighting. Why are soo many still there then?

    We will never abandon those oil rigs, I bet my life on that. We will be somewhere close until they run slap out for the same reason we have yet to really make any attempt with renewables, they want every penny before they switch. If there was no oil we would have let Saddam do what ever he wanted and never lifted a finger, same as Darfur. In reality Saddam would probably never have came to power, if what I understand is true.

  37. mike

    @Ramus You can watch it - just go to channel4 website or 4on demand or more4 - you should find it in one of those channel4 web pages

  38. duck

    The US is caught in a catch 22. Half the world hates America for going to war and the other half hates America because it didn't go to war. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

    People complained about the US waiting to join WWII, some today complain that we joined WWII.

    France was heavy into the Vietnam conflict, asked for our help and backed out after the US went there, then France berates the US for fighting there.

    Briton, France, and a handful of other country's intelligence services stated that Iraq supported the Taliban and had weapons of mass destruction. The US intelligence stated that the other country's data was true. The United Nations reviewed the data and served 14 proclamations to Iraq over the period of three years which Iraq ignored and even boasted that Iraq would annihilate any troops that enter it's country and that they had the means to do it. Whether the intelligence was true or not, the US acted on that information. Now, those same countries that supplied the information including the UN are nailing the US for going into Iraq. But things such as this have little meaning to the haters of the world.

    In every war since time began, civilians have been harmed, atrocities have occurred. War is always hell. The only people that I have ever met that liked war was the haters, the 'my way or else types', or the 'know it alls' that have a quick, simplified answer for everything. It has always been that way and will continue as long as one people war against another people, but, for some hateful reason, most people including many in the US, believe that only America kills civilians and tortures people. These people are usually the same people that will torture and kill any American they come across which somehow makes them feel good. The first question I would ask them, if they could hold their killing rage long enough, is if they can control what their government does or how their government acts. What would happen to them if their government called them to go into the killing fields. I doubt that they have no more control over their government than Americans have over theirs. Politicians, once voted into office always seem to forget why they were placed there.

    Voting someone into office doesn't mean voting to go to war.

    Maybe America should never have gone to war period, meaning, never have joined WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, plus all the sundry skirmishes over the decades. I have met people that are still angry over 'colonies' breaking away from Briton. I know people that refuse to have anything to do with Germany because of WWI and WWII. I wonder what kind of world that would be.

  39. fi

    Its nothing new, and if the iraqi look like there doing the dirty work america is off the hook. As far as I see America is the terrorist.

    How the US Code Defines Terrorism...........................?
    Under the US Code, ìinternational terrorismî includes activities involving:

    (A) ìviolent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State;î

    (B) Are intended to ñ
    (i) ìIntimidate or coerce a civilian population;
    (ii) Influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
    (iii) Affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

    (C) Occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States....î
    The US Army Operational Concept for Terrorism (TRADOC Pamphlet No. 525-37, 1984) shortens the above definition to be ìthe calculated use of violence or threat of violence to attain goals that are political, religious, or ideological in nature....through intimidation, coercion, or instilling fear.

    As far as I see they have broken every rule but then it seems these rules are for others not them since they are the ones that run around the world DOING THIS EXACTLY
    Read some history kids

  40. fi

    Al quada are USA trained and created...and a great EXCUSE to wage war on what a country??? a nation countries. GO HOME and stop robbing the recourses of innocent countries for oil and power in their political systems. USA does all it says NOT to.

    They are the most powerful nation and should Never wage war on a country that cannot depend itself this is terrorism.

    Since war is a business for them they need to keep wars going. They think they rule the world and it would seem they do since NO country is allowed to stand up to them or EVEN defend themselves if WAR is waged on their country.

    Its a very sad sad sick joke................when will people wake up THEIR WAR CRIMINALS they have brought nothing but DESTRUCTION to all they so call save. ITS IMORAL genocide

    And torture they are as guilty in a gross way they treat people like animals no I am sure they treat animals better.

  41. ez2b12

    @ Fi

    I happen to hold a degree in history friend, and all countries for the most part are guilty of some or all of these things. In fact just pick any major country out there short of maybe Switzerland, or sweden and I can demonize them with pure facts. The US has done alot of good for this world, like it or not. I can not say the same for many other countries.

    But if it makes you feel better you go ahead and convience yourself we are the big bad wolf. Life is always simpler when you can identify someone as the bad guy and someone else as innocent. People do it here in the US as well, they just see the rich guy as the wolf. To me its pretty apparent they sit behind envy and simple minds to do so. They need someone to blame for the bad things in life becuase its too much thought to realize that bad and good are relative human concepts with little validity or truth behind them. We are all guilty, you sweep your floors and we will sweep ours.

  42. Reasons Voice

    @Duck; Again like in many of your posts you have summed up my sentiments exactly. Alas for a world that simply wants to lay blame on the biggest shoulders. The UN called the shots for the first Iraq war, the Somalia skirmish, Croatia involvement, And many others. From my perspective it is like these other nations set us in like an unleashed dog to attack their target then beat us down for doing what they asked. I am a strict isolationist at this point. I want the UN off of our soil and out of our lives. I want our troops back home from all bases and I want forign aid abolished. I am a New Yorker and am aware of the character of those UN officials. They walk our streets like gods with no regard for others so why be surprised by their war mongering and blame shifting. And the France in Vietnam comment makes me want to buy you a beer. Cheers!!
    @EZ; What you say is correct, All of the nations of the world were built upon the bones of what was before them. But don't let Switzerland off. Their banks still hold caches of looted treasure etc. from WWII stolen by the Nazis. They sit back and reap the rewards of conquest with clean hands and dirty secrets.

  43. fi

    There is never an excuse to torture people. Or wage war. Isn't that the whole idea of politician discuss things and work it out. Yes how naive this sounds but that is their job.

    if your country is attacked, are you aloud to defend yourself it seems not, then you are an insurgent.

    Written below are USA words and laws NOT mine please read it.

    How the US Code Defines Terrorism………………………
    Under the US Code, ìinternational terrorismî includes activities involving:

    (A) violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State;

    (B) Are intended to
    (i) ìIntimidate or coerce a civilian population;
    (ii) Influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
    (iii) Affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

    (C) Occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States….î
    The US Army Operational Concept for Terrorism (TRADOC Pamphlet No. 525-37, 1984) shortens the above definition to be ìthe calculated use of violence or threat of violence to attain goals that are political, religious, or ideological in nature….through intimidation, coercion, or instilling fear.

    USA can scream its innocent but we all know the world is run and controlled by the big boys, even governments are just puppets.
    It seems that most cannot imagine a prosperous world, where there is equality in life style education and resources.

    We are either to busy fighting to see the light or too hungry to care whats right.

    Its not good and bad like the movies its real people dying, if you can watch such docs with impunity good luck to you all.

    Even a mass murder is good at justification, the ego demands it?

    BUT with the tech we have, we don't need to run the planet like this. If the PEOPLE really had a say most just want a peaceful life. But the boys up the top want control and have it.

    Wasn't peace what USA promised but didn't deliver?

    A catch 22 mmmmm is it the case that Americans believe their own propaganda seems sadly so
    Of course the people have little control over the politician ( world wide} so guess its not really a democracy, rather a dictatorship in control.

    Your either with us or against us, what a comment, that drew a line in the sand so any criticism and you must be a terrorist.

    You don't have to believe the b@##$%&*. Maybe you have seen to many movies.

    Humane actions are just that and war no matter how it is justified is mass murder,
    With the weapons the USA has it should be the peace maker NOT the war munger but then its big business isn't it.
    The dollar is king. Humanity who cares.

    Its a sad world when powers such as the USA have a need to flex their muscles.

    there have been 2 days of peace since world war 2. The USA took all the tech and the German scientist...........I have only heard justification in most comments here.

    @ez2b12 putting me down does not win any points, its just more justification for actions that are gross. I care not for the Hollywood films with heroes and villains and maybe if the countries that do these action took real responsibility for their actions the world may be a safer place.....if some of the international treaties were followed? ENFORCED

    All pointless since no one on this talk has any power to make any changes we are run by a few families that have had the control for eons, Obama etc are just front men.

    I am not a Muslim just a concerned citizen that wonders how the west justifies their actions over many hundreds of years we all know about it but hey all is fare in love and war or so you like to think, justifies most actions really from murder to adultery.

    I am not religious JUST A HUMANITARIAN

  44. 420 Vision

    There is but only one cause for any war, past, present and future,.. GREED

  45. fi

    To all americans I know there are 300 millian and most yes may not like whats happening but its the USA policies and agendas not individuals that are on line and england etc etc etc have all followed suit...this is a western mess and a world that is controlled by a few.

  46. fi

    @420 vision so true

  47. fi

    WikiLeaks is blocked buy the thailand government as are many other sites.
    MAybe other counties also block it.

    without data most cannot make an inteligent decision, and why propaganda rules.

  48. everlaid

    So, no one makes a big deal of Taliban killing Women and children chopping their heads off on tv.

    The iraqui military comitting mass genocide...Not to mention all the other countries killing their own people by stoning and repressing women.

    So why make a big deal over what happens during war...Oh sorry only make a big deal if it is the US doing the deed right???

    Atrocities always happen during a war.

    Please someone tell me of one war where innocent people have not been killed. These soldiers are under a lot of stress and s@#$ is going to happen.

    I'm not justifying there actions. But people need to wake up...

    THIS IS WAR

  49. everlaid

    Another piont that wiki leaks guy is no american....
    He is a traitor to his country and should be charged with treason

  50. ez2b12

    @ fi

    Tell you what Fi, lets hold hands and sing cunbaya- maybe all the bad men will go away. That would be just as productive as your misguided hippy style rants. All I am going to say, and then i am going trick-or-treating by god, is when the US gets back on its feet I really hope we remember this kind of hypocracy and simple minded attempts to demonize us. Now lets all go bobbing for alchol and a5s, can I get an amen?

  51. ez2b12

    @ everlaid

    NO, wikileaks is a good thing friend. I have no issues with more exposure, keeping the military more transparent means keeping them more responsible. GO WIKILEAKS and Julian Assange, everyone should check him out on TEDtalks- great interview. I very seriously doubt they expose enough to give the enemies of the US anything that could hurt us really. I am sick of all the refusal to share info because it could cause security issues, BS. It is just a way to mask what crooked military and politicians sometimes do. Not that all info should be available but come on man, use some common sense about it. Nothing wrong with patriotism but blind patriotism leads to tea bagger bs.

  52. LisaP

    While watching the parts about CF killing innocent civilians, All I could think about was that it would likely be the same if a foreign country were to invade a western one. Culture is so different and the soldiers are so scared it gets hard to distinguish between a dangerous situation and an every day action.
    It is horribly sad to think the war has left Iraq more violent and deadly than it was before the invasion.... And boy does it make sense!! If some soldier from another country killed my family while they were surrendering I would likely pick up arms and attack them too!

    I am all for freedom of information and am glad wikileaks did what it has done, but I am terrified these leaks will only worsen the hatred and instill more young people to get revenge. This information will be analyzed for years... It is out there now and the perfect justification for retribution of generations to come.

  53. fi

    @ez2b12 seems your taking these posts personally

    Seems you have many comments to make about others comments.
    What is your comment about.........How the US Code Defines Terrorism………………………?

    These are your rules not a hippies but NOT ONE COMMENT FROM ANYONE ON THEM these are NOT my words as I have said, call them the hippies lol. But their in a conflict of interest
    as far as their own rules go.

    Under the US Code, ìinternational terrorismî includes activities involving:
    (A) ìviolent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State;

    (B) Are intended to ñ
    (i) ìIntimidate or coerce a civilian population;
    (ii) Influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
    (iii) Affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
    (C) Occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States….î
    The US Army Operational Concept for Terrorism (TRADOC Pamphlet No. 525-37, 1984) shortens the above definition to be ìthe calculated use of violence or threat of violence to attain goals that are political, religious, or ideological in nature….through intimidation, coercion, or instilling fear.

  54. fi

    AGAIN PLEASE READ THIS

    How the US Code Defines Terrorism………………………?
    Under the US Code, ìinternational terrorismî includes activities involving:
    (A) ìviolent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State;

    (B) Are intended to
    (i) ìIntimidate or coerce a civilian population;
    (ii) Influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
    (iii) Affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

    (C) Occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States….î
    The US Army Operational Concept for Terrorism (TRADOC Pamphlet No. 525-37, 1984) shortens the above definition to be ìthe calculated use of violence or threat of violence to attain goals that are political, religious, or ideological in nature….through intimidation, coercion, or instilling fear.

    ANY COMMENTS??????????

  55. fi

    @ez2b12
    You cannot comment it seems except to attack anyone who does not like the USA
    GET off the post we are all intitled to have differing opinions and you attacks are starting to paint a sad picture of who you are or have been, got some blood on your hands???? have you

  56. fi

    THE USA seems to think it can rule the world demoralised many countries and governments if all it has got is a little insults them poor old USA, it should be tried for WAR CRIMES and will be in due time so get ready for it else it will be a shock.

    The rest of the world isn't brain washed or stupid and defiantly not hippies. lolol

  57. RazorDiamond

    To EVERYONE who thinks 'War is War'.
    Your statement and state of mind make a big point of your ignorance.

    War IS war, and such it is agreed apon in the LAWS of war. LAWS which are CLEARLY not being executed properly, no matter what you think about the consecuences.

  58. Pete Bollini

    War really has no laws.

  59. ash breaks stuff

    Not everyone in the US is rich. This economy is cr@p. For some people joining the military is the only way to provide for their families.

    My dad isn't in Iraq right now because he wants to be.

  60. tommy the cat

    jaw dropping? if this is a news flash you are an ignorant person

  61. fi

    @ash breaks stuff

    This is a very true comment
    Unfortunately it isn't the rich folk that fight in wars.

    It isn't the soldiers that make the rules or start the war and in the USA they have NO choice except to go if already enlisted, or join up to fight what they believe is a justified war, or as you say economics.

    This isn't the fault of theirs. The government has set the rules, agendas and the war......its the war agendas this is about and what has become accepted behavior.

    Soldiers also have to follow the rules of engagement that their given we are aware of this and a few bad eggs can make everyone look bad.

    Thing is there should not have been any war then your father could have been in service but not in a war........

    This isn't an attack on individuals rather government agendas, the army is just doing their dirty work.

    If its right or wrong......they still have to follow orders.

    Also there is a huge amount of brainwashing and peer pressure
    to deal with in any such structure.

  62. fi

    @Pete Bollini

    You are wrong there are many rules (written) about war and engagement its just that people get away with murder literally, because they don't enforce any. This should not be accepted.
    If you look into the so called UN sanctions and international law you will find after world war 2 they decided to make a few rules. FOR humanitarian reasons.

    I am sure no one would like the shoe on the other foot say the biggest power ( hypothetically, since USA is it now) decided they didn't like BUSH so they were going to invade the USA and the rest of the world stood by even joined in.

    Would you want there to be a few humanitarian rules or is it ok to kill you, your family for nothing...torture you....put the shoe on the other foot.
    WE ARE ALL PEOPLE and all have a right to a good life, few get one.

    I hope this changes else we will not have much of a future since we don't seem to have learnt from our past mistakes or history.
    Also an aggressive nation should NEVER have nuclear power to use against others that's just a black belt being the bully!

    The western (England, France, USA, dutch, Spanish etc)has been aggressively taking over nations and destroying the native for years, was fine then too but now people look back with a different opinion.
    GREED and the spoils of war...looting ....would you like the same treatment as what is dished out?????

  63. Reasons Voice

    In regards to the rules of engagement; Yes it is true that there are rules of engagement and codes of conduct within a war. However at times those rules can cause more harm than good. For example durring the NATO intervention campaign in Somalia, NATO determined that a certain 4 block radius in the city was a non-combat zone. It was a market place where many civilians congregated. Seems logical, and yet the revolutionary forces also decided to utilize this "safe zone" as a base of operations thus prolonging the encounter and costing unknown numbers of lives. They also fired RPGs from the rooftops of this zone at allied aircraft with no repurcussions.
    In the current war in Iraq it would appear true that there are civillian casualties, also due to the fact that the enemy is not fighting in the open on clearly drawn lines. They fight from in amoungst their own people that makes a "clean war" just about impossible. In addition to the civillian casualty issue we have the issue of "humane treatment" of prisoners of war. I am not going to get too in depth on that issue. I will simply say; Which would you prefer Guantanimo or a televised beheadding? Anyone on here can disagree with me or even dislike me for this opinion but I believe we should take inspiration from Ex Russian President Putin. When gihadists attacked a theater in Russia he had special ops enter the building and kill every one of the terrorists. He then ordered that their bodies be wrapped in pig skins and burried. What he acomplishes with that is to take away the gihadists ultimate motivator. They feel assured an eternal heaven for their actions in gihad. However by being desicrated by the pig skins they are condemned to hell. Kinda kills the mojo for em.

  64. Reasons Voice

    Oh, before someone acuses me of religious bias. I do respect the muslim religion and it's practitioners. However the gihadist are not, in my opinion, true Muslims. They are as Muslim as were the kgnites of the Crusades were Christians.

  65. duck

    @ Reasons Voice

    I feel sorry for the pigs..

  66. ez2b12

    @ duck

    I hear you man, what a watse of fine leather. I can see why Putin did it though, and I agree with the sentiments.

    @ Fi

    Whatever, wah wah wah. Thats all I hear from you. We have always and will always take care of our own problems. And I will post whatever I like, you do not decide what is important enough to be talked about, no matter how many times you post the same thing over and over. Americans know what is wrong with their government and what to do about it. Your country is not innocent, I can say that without even knowing where you are from because no one is. I am sick of this same conversation, we have had too many times on this site. Have fun, maybe if you keep posting the same thing someone will finally reply about it. (LOL)

    What do you want me to say, that our government is hypocritical, they are. So is yours and every other government out there. Maybe if everyone took as much interest in their own country's short comings something would actually get done. Or we can all sit around pointing fingers about things we really do not understand. Watching one documentary online doesn't make you an expert on war or the US, does it.

  67. fi

    @Author: ez2b12
    The USA is militarily the biggest power ( has the biggest guns) and it sets presidencies.....as SUCH it has responsibility to make GOOD polocies but it has broken every rule in its own book lead alone others.

    NOT to be the Terrorist it has waged war on. Most wars are about another countries not a VERB, the most misused word now in the english language.

    Lets have a war on crime we have the war on drugs etc etc etc.
    What a joke USA just needs a war it HUGE business. ALso the looting is great

    If you want to rule the world you have a responsibility to do it right.
    Now torture is fine and everything the USA does becomes a precedence of other government actions, so now it seems anything goes, OUR world now is more unsafe for everyone.
    WELL DONE hey could you make those changes your talking about before its too late for NON USA people....since there are others on THIS planet also. OR go back home and STAY there and get you NOSE out of everyone else's COUNTRY.

  68. ez2b12

    @ fi

    So the US is the only country that has the responsibility of showing everyone else what is right? You guys all want to sit back and let us figure it out then just copy us, whos failure to lead is that? By the way, calm down man your going to swallow your tongue. Maybe you and everyone else should start blaming your own government for your own problems, thats a novel idea huh- personal responsibility. No wonder we are the leader in this mess, you all want to follow. Let me give you some advice, don't just follow the US around and blame them everytime you get lead into a hole. We are always going to do what is best for us and not necessarily the rest of the world. Thats precisely how we became sucessfull. Take some responsibility and make your own paths. Even the citizens of this country do not just follow blindly behind our government. If you refuse to take this responsibility I have no symapthy for where you end up. If you guys think we are going to put ourselves in jeopardy inorder to set a good example or help some other country, well- you are more niave than I thought.

  69. winston

    @ fi "It isn’t the soldiers that make the rules or start the war and in the USA they have NO choice except to go if already enlisted, or join up to fight what they believe is a justified war, or as you say economics."

    A soldier can refuse to deploy and has a legal and moral obligation to do so if a war is deemed illegal. Look up the case of Erin Watada then tell me about a soldiers obligations to follow orders/

    You go to jail yourself before you deploy to an illegal war! END OF STORY.
    That is what we hung Nazis for, remember? "Just following orders."
    NOT ACCEPTABLE WHEN ORDERS LEAD TO WAR CRIMES IN ILLEGAL AND IMMORAL WARS FOR COPORATE GREED

  70. Midlewoodian GLD

    Iraq world the big mistake of mankind, i am from borneo island used to serve in Ranger Sarawak . Border Scout.Been facing with danger situation at the border of Kalimantan - Sarawak in 1998.

    used to sacrifice for my homeland in Borneo island. i cant even think the mistake in mandkind been carried in Iraq by the ally of the northern force.

    Evidences been putting up to the surface still cant bring the justice back to normal practice

    People been spreading their blood for their mother soil been putting up as hero and not the intruder, we as human always repeating mistake from generation to generation. causing by Greed. shame to know we are knowledgible and wise . foolishing around like a crown. so please stop ur stupid action towards those innocent people and for the sake of Kamal.

  71. fi

    @ez2b12
    I never said USA was responsible for others but since it wast to be the BIGGEST and the most aggressive then it SHOULD take a responsibility for its actions.......
    Have you noticed we are the only ones arguing......your defending disgusting behavior I am saying when it becomes normal to act as USA is then we all have lost our rights. If another country can invade whom ever it want. imprison torture and ship them across boarders well there's no such thing as any human rights, maybe a week in your own prisons and some torture may change your mind. I am sure YOU feel VERY safe that would never happen so since you have never had such treatment maybe your not really qualified to comment on it being OK to act like that.

  72. Vlatko

    @fi,

    There is no need to get upset. Watch your tone and the use of words. If you and @ez2b12 continue like this I'll have to delete the comments.

  73. ez

    @ Vlatko

    My apologies, I will step down. I am too close to this thing to be objective anyway. I love my brother man. Its hard to watch what he is going through and still be apologetic to critics. I admit though we have done some bad things, I just don't think we are alone. Sorry if I got out of hand though, thanks for calling me back from the edge.

    @ Fi

    Sorry, I got upset and out of line.

  74. ez

    @ Vlatko

    Oh yeah, I changed my nick name to ez, hope it doesn't cause confusion.

  75. fi

    @ez
    Hi its ok I understand it would be hard to be objective when your so close, take care ad hope your brother comes home safe and sound.

  76. fi

    @Vlatko

    Hi I understand your position and I think you will find now Ez and myself will also be ok.

  77. fi

    @Vlatko

    If this is your site its fantastic to have all these docs to look at and thanks for your great work.

  78. duck

    @ fi and ez2b12

    Jeez, you guys got a warning, Vlatko deleted my posts. Did you guys know that 'puzzycat' [ss]was an insult ??? Learn something new everyday. ;-)

  79. nathan

    here this is a bit ove a joke..
    all the docs i wnt too see are blocked my chanel 4.

    there a bunch a frozen fingerz!

  80. ez

    @ Fi

    My brother is already home, but his is all meessed up. Physically and mentally. Lost the use of his arm and can't even leave the house hardly. He gave a kid a bottle of water and when other citizens attacked the kid he stepped in. I'm not sure what happened next because he will not talk about it. I really didn't want to go there, I could not take if people started cracking on him or our relationship. I realize I am biased by this and just can't help it. I always told myself I wouldn't be like that, but I am- its almost impossible not to be. You had no way of knowing this so don't feel bad. It's cool man, I did get over heated. I said some ugly stuff that is out of character for me really. Your apology is accepted and I offer mine in return.

    @ Duck

    Vlatko is a great guy, he gets stuck in some tough spots. You know I respect you though, I am just saying...

  81. ez

    @ Duck

    He also deleted some off my posts before, when they were out of line and tasteless. Not saying yours was, I never read it. Just saying he has been pretty fair in my experience.

  82. Vlatko

    @Duck,

    I really don't remember which comments of yours I've deleted but probably I had a good reason to do so. On the other hand I'm human thus prone to error. I've might deleted some innocent comments in the process.

  83. Atli

    What goes around, comes around... We're fkt.

  84. 420 Vision

    There is only one reason for war : GREED,.. and greed is encoded into every single humans brain, and this stain upon our species will have to evolve out of us before we can ever hope to live in peace.

  85. 420 Vision

    This once great nation was destroyed and demoralized by a swarm of locust. This swarm took only days to control and secure the oil supply, and 6 years to chew away and destabilize the social infrastructure of Iraq, leaving behind anarchy and feces. Now these locust have taken flight and are flying to yet another nation full of green pastures and society. If Iraq did not have oil, they would have escaped this fate.

  86. wowow

    this is so sad... and expected. eeeevil evil things. what do you expect when you pump loads of fear into 20 something meat heads who just wanna shoot s@#$.... "shoot that guy with the red headscarf... he has a bomb" it is an example of a sloppy, sick war for nothing!!!! do we have to make textbook history all the time? why can't all nations live in peace??? we have resources.... i don't see the need for all the greed.

    this is the awakening. we have come to a point where we can sit back and observe the evidence and form our own opinions. this is wrong, sick. people are so angered their fathers and grandfathers have been killed it will never stop. a never ending cycle. the beautiful world we know will be destroyed by greed.

  87. James

    Its good to see that these files are made public. Having Americans see the effects of the actions of their elected should put things into perspective after the single minded media that shaped the pro-war opinion of the time. Even though this documentary is incredibly off balance. Its important to remember the only side of the story the public in America has heard is the one that "they" wanted us to hear. But looking at Americas track record even though all the rhetoric/propaganda that public our officials make to the contrary. We apparently are not that concerned with collateral damage and indiscriminate killing . Look at fire-bombings in Germany and Japan in WW2, Hiroshima/Nagasaki nuclear bombings against civilian targets, the American Indian war (which can be classified as a genocidal campaign), Vietnam, the list goes on and on with major military operations and CIA ops. America has a lot of blood on its hands but historically speaking any nation that has expanded to the point of being a world power or otherwise will always find an enemy to single out and demonize to its public and then prosecute for various political and economic reasons. Its very naive and sheepish of American society to believe that this would have been bloodless war or the fact that there will ever be such a thing. Humanity will never stray from the course we have always followed. We will continue making the same mistakes that we have in the past until the leaders in every nation are held accountable for their actions.

  88. duck

    @ James

    We have to play nice like the Germans. Hitler made the US look very bad. We made a big mistake in not following his 'gentle' war tactics.

    Japan was always polite and courteous to any and all countries that they invaded. We were wrong in not emulating their simply enchanting methods of war.

    Stalin was another great guy to follow. He couldn't do any wrong.

    The US should have noticed Spain's treatment of the Indians in the New Country and conducted themselves likewise in such a matter.

    Following Briton's examples in Africa, the Indies, and most other locations around the world would have made America a much better world citizens.

    Yep, America is the worst country on the planet. Maybe it should be abolished or at least reformed. Maybe modeling itself after those stalwart countries like Nigeria or maybe Zimbabwe would cure the 'hate America' syndrome.

    When the American president does wrong, send one or two guys from, say, France to the Whitehouse and arrest the Commander in Chief.

    I assume that your statement that "..leaders in every nation are held accountable for their actions" doesn't really count for all countries and that only America be held to task because after three years, fourteen United Nations proclamations, and a dozen countries went in to Iraq in unison under the last UN declaration, the very act of a leader be held responsible becomes an act of war. Maybe the two guys from France would have scared Sadam into submission.

    I would suggest that you volunteer yourself to arrest Bush, Cheny, or any other person that you feel should be taken down and brought to justice. We, as a society, cannot assist you in any way because that may lead to violence and that is the very thing that we are trying to avoid..

  89. duck

    @ wowow

    I agree that nations should get along, or at least work out compromises that is agreeable for all, but that describes a perfect or near perfect world. Then, people are going to have to figure out who decides what that near perfect world is. You will always have people that do not want to live in a way prescribed by another group of people. This is one of the reasons that in many countries the political parties are so mad at each other.

    Some people cannot even get along with their next door neighbors much less accept anyone else as they are. Each person views the world through their own eyes and most people expect everyone else to see what they are seeing, sometimes it is see things their way or else.

    The US sends hundreds of millions of dollars in food, medical supplies, and aid to many poor countries. The leaders or the military of many of these countries confiscate this aid and allow their own people to starve or die of sickness. If the US went in to stop the confiscation of this aid, the US would be accused of invading a sovereign country. If the US stops the aid, the US would accused of being heartless. This is one of the reasons I posted earlier that the US is in a catch 22 situation but that fell on deaf ears.

    The US has troops stationed all over the world. Many of the countries that host US troops do not have any security of their own, They don't have to, the US is supplying and paying for their security. Most of these countries have no oil or anything else of great value other than they are located at strategic locations. If these locations were breached by some dictatorial aggressive nation, millions of free peoples would be lost. Sadly, dictators only respond to force. Most compromises with dictator type countries ends up in a East/West Germany scenario which I guess is alright as long as one ends up on the West Germany side. But, there are those in the world that prefer the East German style of government and attitude.

    I am surrounded by street gangs where I live. There was a shoot out in front of my house, we have been burglarized several times, cars screwdrivered and broke into, windows shot out. The next door neighbors house has been firebombed, there car set on fire. We get caught between gang fights every now and again. We personally cannot do anything about it since we would go to jail ourselves. The police can't do much about it because they can't act until a crime has taken place, by then, the gangbangers have disappeared. If someone recognizes one of the gang members and call the police, the gangs retaliate. In the midst of all this, we have neighborhood organizers coming around with fliers and a pep talk on how we have to understand these hoodlums and nevermind that they make life a living heII. Drive down any street in our area and you will never see children playing in plain view. One group wants to tax us victims and give the money to the gangs to appease them. Sort of a legalized protection racket. Extrapolate this situation out to include states or nations and tell me how does one live in peace?? Just give in and let them have their way?? What new language do you want to speak? What god do you want to be forced to worship or die if you don't bow down??

  90. the loler

    @ duck, its funny to see you list people like Hitler in an attempt to show other countries have acted the way America does. Yes, very good, Hitler was bad too, I don't think anyone disagrees with that and neither do I think that is some kind of let off for America.

    The whole reason you went to war and justified it is on the grounds that you were not like Hitler, Stalin etc, that you were a humanitarian style force of good. We did it too here in the UK, and the truth is we were both telling huge lies and we have to be acountable for that.

    French people, German people, they can say all they want about us, they didnt personaly start a war, the history of their country does not forbid them a moral opinion on genocide.

    Yeah we send out aid, and for every aid $ or £ we send we rape 1000 back in exploitation. If you guys stopped sending out aid, and also stopped exploiting other countries, you would be worse off, so much so that you would riot in the streets.

    Why do you think there is this bloodshed in Iraq? This isnt a mistake, an oversight, or even a lack of care, its intentional. someone above asked if Bush and Blair watch these shows, probably, as much as they hate it being public they love that they got the mission bang on. As Iraq decends into gang warfare, just like african nations, south american nations etc, its people get caught in a loop where they oppress themselves. The day the Iraqi people are free to build their own future in peace they will take back their oil, demand higher wages, higher prices on trade etc. they are our slaves, and the more they fight with eachother the more we can exploit them.

    Your views are coming form your ego and sense of nationalism, you havent looked at the cold facts properly, your country and my country are digusting and evil in the most extreem sense of the words, and any attempt to justify that by saying 'oh, well, hitler was bad too' is just lolable.

  91. duck

    @ the loler

    Yep, I agree with most of what you say, but the point of what I stated wasn't to say because someone else did something, it was alright for us to do the same. The point was that only the US can do wrong no matter what the US does. Having been to Europe and heard first hand the hatred that many Europeans have for Americans for just about anything one can think of including joining WWII, it doesn't really matter anymore what the US does, it will be wrong.

    There are even groups that deny that these other countries have done anything at all, that everything was western propaganda.

    I am still trying to figure out what we are exploiting in Uganda for example. Americans are so bad that we just like to see people starve. Oh well, got to get our kicks somewhere, a-what.....?

    I guess you think that I am personally responsible for what the US does.

  92. duck

    @ the loler

    Actually, I disagree about France. They started the Vietnam problem, requested our help and then they left us holding the bag, but, as always, it was America's fault......

    I wonder what is going to happen to all these oil rich countries that America is raping when and if an alternative fuel source is found. I would suggest that they diversify since many of these countries depend on our raping and plundering or they are really going to be in the soup.

  93. princeton

    all a bunch of political nonsensery! murder is murder is murder. initiating the use of force, no matter which costume you're wearing, is wrong and this on a large scale is why the world is so Fkt.
    war is a bunch of people in costumes, traveling abroad to murder others .. any attempt to give such an even rules is pure mind f*%kery.
    countries and nationalities are just a way to divide people into arbitrary groups which can be exploited. rooting for one country or another is unintelligent. all civilians worldwide are being exploited by "soldiers" and "police" (more like guns for hire) and we need to get this idea out of our head that any such configuration will produce anything other than mass atrocities and violence. we need to start rooting for the only group that matters, mankind. until all of mankind is free, all of mankind will be enslaved, the wolrd is a very small place and what happens anywhere affects everyone in some way! these politicians are getting smarter and banding together (globalisation). not the good globalisation (like all national borders abolished and people left to travel & interact freely) but the kind where the farmers get together and decide how best to manage their sheep and extract the most out of them. we seriously need to grow up!

  94. Reasons Voice

    Lol; Cops are just government guns for hire whose sole task is to oppress the masses of civilian sheep?? hahaha. Yea That detective than stays up for days on end to track down the rapist/killer of an innocent young woman is a corrupt tool of oppression. I love how some people are so diluted as to believe that the enemy is those who are tasked with our protection and not those who would do us harm. True politicians have agendas some police and some soldiers are corrupt abusers of power. Also some dentists feel up their patients while under sedation. Some housekeepers steel jewelry from their employers. Some cooks spit in your food. Police and soldiers are just normal everyday men and women who have chosen a career in helping people.

    for every one cop who chooses his profession to feed a hunger for power there are hundreds who seek to just help people. Do me a favor go through the hiring process for your local sheriffs department. When you get to your psych profile interview express interest in control and dominance then listen to the silence of your phone as you wait for the call for the next faze of hiring. The ones who need to grow up are the ones who treat the police the same way a teenager with an ounce of pot under his drivers seat does. I have never once had a negative encounter with a police officer , of course I don't go around doing i@#$ things that draw their attention. Bit hey fight the power man! open the prison doors let those oppressed folks go. Hey can Manson stay in your guest room?

  95. duck

    @ Reasons Voice

    I agree with you but, [there's always a but...], I have learned through personal experience that one should NOT be caught driving the same year, make, model, color of vehicle that a masked, armed robber drove in a 'get-a-way' from robbing and shooting a store clerk and wounding a shopper. It has a tendency to ruin an otherwise nice day. I still have bad shooting pains along the left side of my head.....

  96. Reasons Voice

    @Duck; Granted, and sory for your bad expirience. I am sure though that, you as an understanding man, can see the reasoning for which you were detained. Contrary to whatever happened to cause your continued pain. Were weapons were involved many police officers can be a bit over the top in their efforts. I have had to take down an armed assailent in a past profession and I can attest that the adrenalin of possibly harm can make one underestimate the force they are exerting.

  97. Aegean

    God help America because nothing else can.

  98. duck

    @ Reasons Voice

    I can fully understand why things occurred with the police as they did, it is what happened after that has me somewhat leery of the police.

    After I was 'apprehended' and 'softened up' by the police, they took me some twenty miles back to the police station. While waiting for the witnesses to arrive, the police 'softened' me up some more. Meanwhile, unknown to me, my vehicle was being towed in for evidence. The witnesses, a man and wife, didn't come in until the next day which gave the police another 16 or so hours of physical 'interrogation' which was not too pleasant.. The police, sure that they apprehended the correct person, went ahead and put me through the full booking procedure which alerted the press. The police released my 'mug shot' to the media with a statement about what an evil person I was and how they were always keen on protecting society from scum like me. The witnesses showed up in the afternoon and the police had me stand about 6 feet of front them for identification. The witnesses immediately stated that I was not the one that held up the store. They added that the robber was much taller, darker hair, and about 10 years younger. The police then began to try and convince the witnesses that they were mistaken and that I was the one that they saw. The police and the witnesses went around and around for about an hour, debating each other as to my guilt or innocence. finally, the witnesses became angry, told the police that they were leaving, the police became angry and threatened the witnesses with non-cooperation. The man told the police to arrest him then, he was not about to be a part of convicting an innocent person. They then left the room.

    The police, now angry, I would guess at themselves, began haranguing me, venting on me for their mistake when a lieutenant, I think, walked in and ordered me to be released. One of the officers that arrested me took off my hand cuffs and waist and leg chains, walked me to the front door and told me to "get my azz out of here.."

    It took me hours to get back to where my vehicle was supposed to be, people don't want to pick up hitchhikers that are all bloody and unkempt especially when one's picture has been plastered all over the media. I had to walk most of the way. A highway patrolman picked me up thinking that I had escaped from the police and put me back in handcuffs again. He finally called the local police and confirmed that I wasn't an escapee and I wasn't the person that they were looking for. The local police had not put out that I was not the robber or that they released me. He drove me to where I was originally arrested.

    My vehicle was missing. A service station employee across the street from where I was arrested said that the vehicle was towed away by a police tow truck a short time after the police took me away. The attendant gave me some change and I called my wife to pick me up. [the police never returned my wallet or other items in my possession..] We drove back to the police station to get back my personal items and to find out where my vehicle was taken to.

    This is where the internal affairs, the police union, The Policeman's Bill of Rights, and the Chief of Police really shine. After asking about my personal effects and my vehicle, no one at the police station knew what I was talking about, I was, according to their records, never arrested, never detained, they never towed my vehicle, and they couldn't understand how a picture of me got into the media's hands. It became a "We investigated ourselves and found we did no wrong" situation. We went to the reporter that released the news of my arrest and it was the same story. I retrieved the title to my vehicle, went to the DMV and they stated that there was no vehicle in their records that matched the suspicious title that I shown to them. The title must be a counterfeit document.

    Being in pain, my wife drove me to our hospital. I had two cracked ribs, cracked jaw, cracked eye socket, torn ear drum with 90 percent hearing loss in the left ear, damaged testicle, plus multiple bruises and contusions. I was of work for a week and a half.

    My body damage happened while I was laying face down on the ground with arms and legs spread out as per police instructions. Five or six policemen attacked me kicking and punching me while I laid on the ground. I would not call a drop-kick to one's head or groin over exuberance especially when it is covered up afterwords. Sort of makes things hard on the innocent..

    The police are a necessary evil as there are some truly bad people roaming around in society and crime has to be taken care of by someone . The problem is that when the police are wrong, when they make a mistake, someone else always pays, usually to a great degree and the police are very good at covering things up or diminishing their resultant actions. Look up Rampart Station. This police unit cost the government millions in law suits and the release of hundreds of innocent people from prison. In central California, a policeman, driving while intoxicated, killed a thirteen year old kid and left the scene of the accident. The police and the DA dropped all charges and convicted him on 'High Misdemeanors', a charge that has been used for centuries on public officials and people of import to allow the minimum of punishment for this type of citizen. We had a policeman plow his vehicle through a group of bicyclists killing two and putting four more into intensive care. 'High Misdemeanors' was once again applied.

    We had a policeman raping female suspects. No one knows how many he attacked. The first three that filed complaints were either ignored or threatened with filing false police reports. Finally, a Jr DA looked into a fourth report, ordered DNA tests and what do you know, the cop was a serial rapist. The police won't talk about it. Policeman's Bill of Rights does not allow any media access to police investigations of themselves.. We had two policemen stop a person walking down the street and beat him so bad that he was hospitalized. The policemen took the guy to the hospital themselves and just left him there. No arrest, no reason. The police chief apologized to the community and offered to pay all hospital bills but nothing happened to the two policemen. Leaked rumor was that the cops mistook him for someone else. Sort of like a legalized street gang, full protection of the law [meaning the police.]

    Once again, I repeat that the police are necessary, but I know a lot of people that do trust someone that is above the law......

  99. duck

    That last line should have been;

    "Once again, I repeat that the police are necessary, but I know a lot of people that do not trust someone that is above the law……"

  100. Reasons Voice

    @duck; Thats one hell of a bad day ya had there man. What it looks like you had was a run in with a screw ball corrupt PD probably circa 70-80s. To a great extent the "old school" however has been driven out of the vast majority of departments. Oversight of police and other investigative groups is a bit more stringent these days. I personally know an officer who was suspended w/o pay for a week for calling a teen thug a F* Hole. Regardless it serves no one to have a blanket distrust of all authority.

  101. duck

    @ Reasons Voice

    If you read further down, those police escapades have occurred in the last year or so.

    Just as a policeman does not know who he is approaching, a citizen doesn't know what kind of policeman is approaching either. The big difference is that a citizen has no protection during initial police contact and is very fortunate if he gets any after a policeman does some dirty deed to an innocent citizen.

    Your correct that it was worse earlier on. Where I grew up, police carried saps, small leather pouches filled with lead shot or sand. They were used to beat people without leaving too many marks on a persons body. They used them often. Many times, the police shot first and asked questions later. Lot of innocents plus kids got killed. Instead of the police charging an officer with a crime, they would force them to retire and write a glowing report on the bad officer so they can get a job in a different city.

    Where I now live, there is one of these 'old time cops' from my home town. He was kicked off the force there and hired here. He rose in rank and finally retired. He was still one bad cop but the force here kept protecting him.

    We get a lot of cops doing something illegal and when approached by another cop, the 'professional courtesy' that police extend to each other kicks in....

    If we try to talk to a policeman about it, the cop usually gets POed and makes some threat... I'm sorry, but I have to look at from the citizen's side. I don't like getting beat on and having the 'honest' cops shine me on...

  102. Reasons Voice

    @Duck; I ceede to your points. I perhapse have a stilted viewpoint as I have worked closely with law enforcement in my life. I also have many friends and collegues within law enforcement and therefore also recieve some professional courtesy frome them. I am not sure what solution there is to this problem. Since there is a pervasive distrust, harsh punnishment of a bad cop is rare since they all get grouped as one. If one goes down often the community will look at all the others with preconceived negativeity. As you say it is imperfect but necessary.

  103. duck

    @ Reasons Voice

    "If one goes down often the community will look at all the others with preconceived negativeity."

    snip==

    This happens no matter who one is. Picture in your mind a chopper motorcycle and rider. This is the type of motorcycle that outlaw bikers usually ride. A few years ago, biker gangs used to cause a lot of problems. They were involved in everything from drugs, prostitution, to murder for hire.

    Anyone seeing one or a group of 'chopper' riders would immediately think that they were outlaws. For a period of time, citizens and police alike would extrapolate out to include all motorcycle riders as outlaws and they would act on that belief. Citizens would be very wary, many would leave an area where there were motorcyclists, police would check most motorcycle riders out or generally harass them.

    In reality, only one percent of bikers were outlaws, the rest were motorcycle enthusiasts or people trying to save money on their transportation costs.

    Preconceived notions happen all the time. In today's world, it's called prejudice, bigotry, or discrimination, and everyone is consciously or subconsciously guilty in one form or another.

  104. duck

    @ Reasons Voice

    I might add that it is the height of hypocrisy for a group of citizens to say they are against war or violence then riot, throw fire bombs, and destroy things in the name of peace. Sort of like telling someone attempting suicide to stop or I'll shoot.

    Strange dichotomies exist all the time and no one has any solutions.

  105. Reasons Voice

    @duck; I used to own a pan head. Most bikers I know are scarey looking teddy bears. But you proove my point. We cant hate the PD for the actions of the minority. Can't adress your last comment though as it would let loose my deep disdain for hippies.

  106. riley

    during the first world war, when britain was desperate for some help against the turks, they promised arabs self-determination for joining the war.

    the arabs opened up a seaport for britain. the brits made a deal with france to carve up arabia.

    and threw palestine over to the jews, while they were at it.

    so - those of you who see america as the great satan, you should remember - there have been many dark princes, and this latest act is just the lasted act in a long play, where european dodgery has been no small part in thwarting/stunting development in the middle-east, india, africa, the caucasus, the pacific rim.

    america blundered in, with questionable motives. but european blame-mongering is also questionable.

    the place was mucked up. its mucked up now. it will be mucked up for the forseeable future.

    iran, another iffy regime, will do its best to keep it that way.

    the one thing no one should pretend, or make pretense to, is that international power relations are like croquet.

    it's more like the lions and hyenas. any nation with as much oil as iraq has will be 'attended to'.

    if you dont like it, sell your car and move onto the busline close to work, or just accept that you are a cell on the hand of the gun.

  107. duck

    @ Reasons Voice

    Hope your not thinking I'm a hippie, I preceded them by about 20 years.

    I owned a 45 flathead and a 650 bored and sleeved to 850....

  108. duck

    @ Reasons Voice

    Make that a 650--850 Beezer..

  109. princeton

    @ reasons voice

    I don't believe your (sentimental at best) reference to the detective working overnight to find a rapist or child murderer applies in the real life scenario where thousands of cops are spending our stolen money driving around looking for people without seat-belts, driving too fast, not stopping all the way, with expired paperwork, or smoking/selling a joint, even possessing some white powder on their person. there are usually less than 30,000 murders and rapes annually, but there are millions of B.S. tickets, arrest and imprisonment where individuals did nothing to hurt another person. You may not have had bad cop experiences.. and i havent had many either, because i keep a low profile, though i spend more than 40hrs weekly driving. but I have been harassed/kidnaped and know many individuals who have been kidnapped and fined for no good reason whatsoever.

    look.. i don't care for platitudes and B.S. people spit out to justify their actions. I dont care what people say, I look at what they do, and the majority of all cops out there do nothing but harass non violent individuals who have done nothing to any other person at all and are blind gun men for the state who will arrest you for any ordinance passed by your city no matter whether it violates your constitutional rights. in my & others experience, they will even violate their own statutes and ordicnances as a matter of company policy and to "make their job easier". this sob story you offer about manson and other rare occurences in society does not justify the thousands of predatory cops out there who shut their minds out and simply do as they're told by their bosses and are out to make the most arrests... as a sidenote though, i am not grouping everyone together, and im a strong believer in individualism.. not every cop is the same, some better than other, but i only care for the moral principles of the job in this discussion.

    its funny how many cops I know who used to by coke and other hard drugs from my homeboys.. we even had detectives buyin s@#$ and tip us off about local raids and shit, but they would turn around and arrest people for the same thing.

    just remember, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.. no matter who it is.

  110. duck

    @ Reasons Voice 109
    But you proove my point. We cant hate the PD for the actions of the minority.
    snip==

    I disagree. You state that the citizen is supposed to NOT judge all police by the actions of a few bad cops, yet the police will lump all citizens into same profile generated by a few bad citizens and generally treat all the citizens that fit the police's profiling as probable, [not possible] crooks.

    I do not hate cops. I do fear them though. The usual cop refrain that if one is innocent, one has nothing to worry about is very hollow sitting behind bars because some cop just thinks one is guilty of something. Adding the fact that when even an honest policeman makes a mistake, some private citizen is going to pay for that mistake, many times, with their lives. When a cop has a bad day, it's time for some innocent to pay...

  111. Pete Bollini

    War is war and Irak as well as Afghanistan are particularly nasty since civilians can't be distinguished from terrorists. However, the "bad cop" syndrome can be limited a lot by putting efficient and well-trained officers in charge of all interrogations, for example. This goes for the communication with helicopters personnel as well. What we need is cool-headed and efficient officers and noncoms.

  112. Reasons Voice

    @pete; I agree 100%. Good officers canchange the face of any combat situation. However with the current attitude of our nations universities toward the ROTC programs those officers become very scarce. The purpose of the ROTC is to get inteligent hard working individuals into command positions where they can make a difference. It's trajic to me that the die hard liberals who want less collateral damage actually cause more by driving out the ROTC.

  113. Anthony

    Iraq needs to be left alone, the people of that country have suffered enough from the failed foreign policy of both the UK and America.

    Pursuing a minority of religious extremists is impossible using the blunt instrument of an occupation force, or through the infra red gun-sights of cold war era helicopter gunships.

    The legacy of the occupation In the memory of the common Iraqi is going to take many generations to heal. In my opinion we have only made the problem of international terrorism much worst by pushing more people into the hands of the extremists. And worst of all we have made real the image of the corrupt immoral western society; in the minds of anyone who has been affected by so called "collateral damage".

    As for the political stability of Iraq well I doubt it will be long before that proves to be as transparent as the motivation for the invasion in the first place, in short you reap what you sow.

  114. fi

    @duck
    When a cop has a bad day, it's time for some innocent to pay...
    love it

  115. Pete Bollini

    I too agree with you, Reason's Voice, that highly qualified ROTC training is of the utmost importance and should be addressed quickly. Why we got into a way is a political decision, often wrong. But once entangled in it we want the best professionals to execute the politicians' mandate. Execution should be fast and efficient and with as little collateral damage as possible. If the USA is be a world leader it must do this or face the consequences as we see them today. A power vacuum left by withdrawal of the USA will quickly be filled by another nation or group of nations. Is this what we want?

  116. duck

    @ fi

    I'm 70 years old and in that length of time, I have been beat by the police three times. The occurrence that I posted earlier was the worst of the three. In one of the times, the police threatened my wife with 'interfering with a police officer' for trying to show them evidence that I was innocent.

    In an untold number of times, I have been stopped by police doing a 'routine' investigation and in each time, the police could not find any truthful wrong doing on my part. In about 25 percent of those times, when the cop couldn't find anything wrong, they made up some infraction and wrote a ticket. Since it was always my word against a cop's word. I always lost in court. Police always tell the truth??? [duuhh]

    One of those times, a cop just stepped off the curb and waved me over. The cop spent 30 minutes going over my car looking for something wrong and couldn't find anything, then he spent another 15/20 minutes on his radio checking me out in every way he could. All this while I sat handcuffed in the back seat of his patrol car. While he was doing the radio check, a police sergeant pulled up and they conferred with each other while examining a thick book. Finally, the cop came and got me from his car, took off the cuffs and ordered me to sign the ticket he had or go to jail. What was the ticket for I asked, he said for loitering in an automobile. I told him that I wasn't loitering anywhere, I was driving home from an engagement. He said that I was "sitting here in his car for 45 minutes and in his book, that's loitering, besides, I don't want to spend all this time on you for nothing.."

    Just last week, the police hooded swat team broke into a house, threw an elderly couple to the ground, roughed them up a bit and then found that they went to the wrong house. The police left leaving the frightened elderly couple there without explanation, with their front and rear doors busted in, several windows broken out, and the house in complete disarray. It wasn't until the elderly couple called a TV station and the media began broadcasting the affair that the police offered an explanation and sent someone out to repair their house and pay for any medical problems that arose from the police action. The police chief went on TV and stated that although they broke into the wrong house, it was still the result of 'good' police work.

    I would then suggest that if it was the result of good police work that they must have done the break-in on purpose or the police were covering up for bad police work. One cannot have it both ways.

    In my neighborhood, the police a very seldom called because of trouble any more. Not just because of reprisals from the hoodlums, but the police hassle the victims almost as bad as the gangs do...

  117. Riley

    go find a doc about cops and talk about it there.

    i dont really care about your attitude toward cops. probably no one else who comes to this thread does, either.

    this thread is about iraq.

  118. duck

    @ Riley

    Don't read posts not addressed to you and you won't be bothered.

  119. duck

    @ Vlatko

    Very well..

    thank you..

  120. IrishKev

    @eZ
    No disrespect to you or your brother eZ, but I get confused when I hear people talking about defending America. Last I heard nobody was trying to invade America. This war is about oil and money. I can understand patriotism but anybody who went to Iraq/Afghanistan to defend America was suckered by the marketing.

  121. IrishKev

    @ Duck
    No wonder the cops bashed you man, you'll never outrun them on a B.S.A. You should have got one of those Yamaha RZ350 two stroke twins!! Just kiddin' man, I too have recieved the tender mercies of meathead cops(Gardai in Ireland) and when I got to court I had to pay 500quid to the Garda Benevolent Fund for the privelege.

  122. fi

    @ IrishKev

    Good call good brain on your shoulders........thank god there are a few around who have their eyes wide open.......

  123. fi

    @duck
    Hey Duck I wasn't being sarcastic, far from it, I agree fully unfortunately, armies seem to have the same tactics and seem to be sooooo concerned with their own safety while they destroy others lives, I feel for this old couple thank god they rang the TV, but this story is all to often, laws could not be enforced without police and armies...trouble is they break the laws along with armies all the time it seems they dont have to follow their own laws...I thought they were there to protect not terrorise so I am with you all the way, sorry if you thought I was being sarcastic I was actually agreeing with you, take care

  124. fi

    @Micka

    wow what a callous selfish heartless human you are thank god there are still a few who do care about others, even when they're not involved........but I am sure you like to be treated with respect, your too young and untouched to comment, really the latest generation of kids are so self centred its scary, wonder how you will squeal when trouble knocks on your door. Rest assured with your attitude no one will care either.

  125. duck

    @ IrishKev

    I cannot comment on anything except Iraq 'cause Riley gets all upset that there are bad cops, although, the BSA did make a nice cruiser..

    @ fi

    Never thought you were being sarcastic, obtuse, or anything negative at all....

  126. Riley

    Don't use my name, unless you are courteous.

    The subject here is Iraq - not the state of the universe regarding various constabularies.

    That's a potentially interesting subject, but it's beside the point.

    Cops in police-states make cops in the US, or UK (excepting n. eire, esp. in the 90s on back) look like, at best, bullies-in-training. Most cops are very decent fellows, in my experience, when i wasn't drunk or obnoxious.

    That's all i have to say on the extraneous subject.

    Re iraq - a country in ruins, subject to the (previously enforced via various interests, firstly the British and later, fascist strongman regimes which flowed into the vacuum left by the British) absence of established civil institutions, the beginnings of a political or social consensus - is a tough nut to crack or grow.

    The US, under the aegis of Di*k Cheyenne inc. wearing George Bush on his knee, undertook this low-percentage shot, visions of Iraqi black gold dancing in Di*k's melon, and George's wooden, head.

    The play is underway. The endeavor has looked worse than it does right now, which makes something hopeless look, momentarily, less so.

  127. Riley

    even richard cheney's name is an obscenity. we should have listened to the machines... ;)

  128. fi

    @duck
    good xx

  129. Matttothee

    @ Everyone saying "war is war" and all that kuk!
    The fact is that the Americans just simply invaded. Now i don't understand how the global community and the U.N let this happen. This is also the case of the Vietnam war, millions of civilians dying for what? The only reason they invaded was because a North Korean sub had "sunk" an American destroyer which later was proved to never have happened. There needs to be a lot more resistance against these institutions. I think theres only one way that the Americans will ever stop expanding and thats if there economy collapses.. ahh i can't wait till we run out of oil.
    And when I say "the Americans" I mean the top dogs. The "enlightened ones ;)"

  130. Reasons Voice

    @matttothee; You can't believe the U.N. let it happen? The U.N. was the source on much of the disinformation regarding WMDs that preceded the invasion. The U.N. is a corrupt and innept coalition of fools. They have representative from third world nations that employ child labor sitting as "human rights deligates". As for Vietnam that was France at the source of that war not the US or the UN. And finally, since we have not found a truely renewable alternative energy source as yet, the running out of oil will mean one thing. The rise of the US, China, and Germany as super powers with a corner on the once again needed coal resources. Also the rise of Austrailia for their righ uranium deposits. And watch out for that transition since the US has large untapped oil fields and reserves. Currently the whole world clamers for the mid east oil, drinking them dry. When they run out Watch as again the US and Venezuela get awful important to people.

  131. over the edge

    @ reasons voice
    no argument here just wanted to point out Canada is second to only to Saudi Arabia in reserves so when the mid east runs out we know where the u.s is going

  132. Pete Bollini

    Reasons voice...I agree. We will also see strange out of the way places suddenly finding oil such as the Falkland Islands and others. Brazil apparently is already on the road to huge oil reserves offshore and in shale. This trend will continue as long as the prospecting rate continues. I think oil will be around for a long time yet. What would happen to the plastics industry if it weren't?

  133. S.C.L.

    Reasons Voice: " The U.N. was the source on much of the disinformation regarding WMDs that preceded the invasion. "

    This was new to me. Care to explain what disinformation UNMOVIC et cetera gave regarding WMDs. As far as I know they were saying that Iraq didnt have those and Hans Blix was not going further than saying that Iraq was not fully complying with some of the UNSC resolutions.

    Anyhow, the more relevant aluminium tubes and 45 minutes b.s. was totally made by the axis of evil, i.e. UK & US

  134. Immortal

    Round 2 coming soon:)

  135. Ron

    @duck
    your original comments are not logical. You cannot compare WWII to Invading Iraq. The UN did not support going to war in Iraq. The US and the UK formed a coalition without UN or Nato support or backing.

    The Germans were sinking US convoys transporting support to the British. The Germans were killing US citizens in international waters.

    You have no where to stand on your original post. There is no historical fact in what you state with regards to the above.

    And Vlatko what is up with having this If plaster the board. People can make a comment or two on a Doc but to be able to go on and on like a ramble seems like a waste of people time.

  136. duck

    @Ron

    If you would have read the complete post, you would have seen that it was stating that no matter what the US does, the US would be wrong. To reiterate, on trips to Europe, I have been accosted by French, Polish, English, German, etc, etc, for entering WWII. They made 'keep your nose out of our business' type of statements then turn around and complain that the US might remove our weapons which are protecting their countries or 'why didn't the US go full bore' in the first round in North Korea, Iraq, Chechnya..

    It is a can't win for losing scenario.

  137. thefutureisyellow

    You still support the troops though right, guys?

    Only joking!

    Wikileaks rock! Can[t wait for round 2

  138. BrotherDave

    Just imagine what it must have been like for the military man or woman. You're away from home, away from your children, moms, dads, brothers and sisters. Not only are you afraid for your life every second of every day, but expecting, anticipating, dreaming of, the end of your life as it might happen right now! What emotional changes are happening in your mind. Your personality, and moral value changes may be taking place at every explosion. Seeing your comrades blown into pieces next to you. How anyone can armchair criticize, is unforgivable. A war, brutal as it is, is being fought by teenagers. Barely enough time to let go of mama's skirt strings and are being asked to kill.. Oh I am sure there are a lot of gung ho types that have always drempt of what it would be like to kill another human being. But the majority do not. I spent 20 years in the US military and I never ever heard anyone pray to be put in this situation. Do not criticize the military men and women for what this video portrays. It was not you in those combat boots. Be thankful for that.
    During the 911 crisis, I too cried for the 3000 victims. But the perpetrators were also killed.

  139. IrishKev

    @ Brother Dave
    What do these people think the military is for? Did they think they would be going camping or something? Were they keeping the enemy from the gates? Haven't you seen any of the utube footage of jarhead U.S. troops in Iraq/Afghanistan?
    I don't feel sorry for any of them! Even if they are already in the military they could refuse to go. I know I would. I'd much rather be jailed in innocence than be a murderer for Bush/Blair. As for 9/11, were the real perpetrators killed? A lot of people don't think so.

  140. IrishKev

    The truth will set us free, long live wikileaks!

  141. whitepower

    i am glad all of those civilians got caught in the cross fire its war not a tea party. and for the torture we should do whatever is necessary everyone else does so why should we be so different? hell it works.

  142. whitepower

    kill em all!

  143. whitepower

    especially the sandnukkas......they suk!

  144. IrishKev

    @ *hitepower
    And torturing people has achieved what exactly?

  145. Thomas

    @Micka "hate[s] america and americans."

    Since "Micka" does not disclose his own nationality, I'm going to guess that he is from that nation with the former leader known (affectionately) as "Bush's Lap Dog". So I guess that would make Micka a sort of "Lap Dog's dog". Actually, except for the lap dog and his followers, I'm a big fan of that country (and of dogs). But that's just me.

  146. Bravinator

    This video is blocked in the U.K

    Help please?

  147. the loler

    @ Duck

    About the earlier mention of France. I agree, France started vietnam, and a lot of other wars, I didnt mean to imply France had not started wars, only that the individual people of France had not, the average joe on the street. So while his own country may have done bad things, he personaly didnt start vietnam, and hence I feel he is entitile to any opinion on war regardless. But yes, you are right, as a whole nation France is no one to talk as they have started untold wars and been involved in empirialism way before america even existed.

    And that sort of elads to Rileys statement about America being seen as Satan but look at what Brittian has done. I couldnt agree more, and infact Id say this even, that what America are doing they are doing with the full knowledge and blessing of europeat higher levels. I see the west like a gang, a mafia familly, and America is this big 7 foot child the familly has had. Hes come of age now and we have set him lose on the world to carry out the day to day destruction our familly dishes out.

    I did some calculation yesterday while watching some Iraq docs, using their figures and figures Ive seen in papers.

    50,000 american troops to be left behind in Iraq
    30,000 new american troops being sent to afganistan

    now, I dunno how many are already in afganistan, so lets leave them out for now but rememeber that whatever figure I end up with here is no the full cost by a long stretch.

    $700,000 is the cost of keeping 1 soldier in the middle east for a year.

    so some quick math, 50k + 30k = 80k, 80,000 soldiers in question.

    80,000 soldiers x $700,000 each a year = $56,000,000,000 a year to keep them there.

    Apparently we may be there till 2020 acording to a lot of news papers over here, thats 10 more years, so we x the figure by 10 and get..

    $560,000,000,000

    I know 'billion' means a different number in the uk than the usa, so ill talk in universal figures, thats five hundered and sixty thousand million dollars. Over half a million million. And thats not even the full figure, it doesnt count the soldiers already in afganistan, the soldiers past the 50,000 mark still in iraq, or any of the costs to date.

    By the end of the war the American pulic will have spent over a million million, 1,000,000,000,000 on this war by my estimations. Who for? Themselves? Yes of course themselves, but for europe too. They will have lost 10s if not 100s of thousdands of people to fighting, disease, gulf war syndrome etc. What will the uk have paid? What will france have paid? But they will benifit just as america from western dominance of the world being upheld for many generations by the destruction of the middle east. Europe knows whats happening, they give a few men here and there, publicly they condem the action for the most to apease their people, but behind the scenes they are silent partner in the whole thing, profiting from it from the sidelines while the young pup america does all the hard work. In some ways I feel sorry for america, its people anyhow, because its their rep being shat on, their money paying for all this, their kids dying in the streets of a middle eastern village.

    Very sad times we live in my brothers and sisters.

  148. duck

    @the loler

    What really bothers me is that when I had traveled to many European countries, the common person, the baker, the farmer, the fuel station attendant would jump all over me, sometimes to the point of being physical, about me being American. Several stated that those 3000 people that were killed on 911 deserved it. I would ask them if they can control what their politicians or government does and they would get more angry.

    Many that post on sites like this lash out against anyone that they perceive as being from the US. As commoners, we can't even control local city's government officials much less the Federal government. After being voted in, they do what they want. It is a 'do as I say, not as I do' situation as far as the political crowd is concerned and it doesn't matter who is voted in, they all end up the same.

  149. Chuck

    Well the cat's out of the bag now, I don't think the powers that be are very happy, but here's not whole lot they can do about it. If they do anything drastic, the whole damn thing is gonna come apart, including any kind of order like the old order. We just can't, ("we"meaning US citizens) keep justifying 109,000 plus deaths in Iraq for a lie, or the 3,000 that died on 9/11. We can't! People are finally figuring out what has been going on and if something happens to Assange, I fear that there will be anarchy spreading like wild fire. If any lives are saved from this information getting out, it's damn well worth it, even if a few are lost to save the the masses that are in line for a cheap coffin if we continue. I think it may already too late to save what we have left of this world. It's really sad. BS will prevail, because the majority of us will be baffled with BS, and look the other way. I hope you people on here from other countries will write our politicians and let them know that you are tired of them trying to control the world, your world. I guess the US didn't get their turn at pillaging the world like Britain and Spain did in the past 300 or so years.
    Vlatko, thanks for doing your part for at least trying to make the world a better place.

  150. Davd

    You reap what you sew. You live by the sword you die by the sword!!!!

  151. Skeptik_trick_the_tick

    Imagine there's no Heaven
    It's easy if you try
    No hell below us
    Above us only sky
    Imagine all the people
    Living for today

    Imagine there's no countries
    It isn't hard to do
    Nothing to kill or die for
    And no religion too
    Imagine all the people
    Living life in peace

    You may say that I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope someday you'll join us
    And the world will be as one

    Imagine no possessions
    I wonder if you can
    No need for greed or hunger
    A brotherhood of man
    Imagine all the people
    Sharing all the world

    You may say that I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope someday you'll join us
    And the world will live as one

  152. Skeptik_trick_the_tick

    here is some for the dreamers

    Imagine there's no Heaven
    It's easy if you try
    No hell below us
    Above us only sky
    Imagine all the people
    Living for today

    Imagine there's no countries
    It isn't hard to do
    Nothing to kill or die for
    And no religion too
    Imagine all the people
    Living life in peace

    You may say that I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope someday you'll join us
    And the world will be as one

    Imagine no possessions
    I wonder if you can
    No need for greed or hunger
    A brotherhood of man
    Imagine all the people
    Sharing all the world

    You may say that I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope someday you'll join us
    And the world will live as one

  153. Mike Fatah

    Canadiens are very peaceful people. Oh well, back to my guns and bible..

  154. Shurjur

    This is a shame to America

  155. FoxNewsisaLie

    Kinda funny how the Japanese troops pulled these kind of stunts in WW2 and now their country isn't even allowed to *have* an army.
    These days, thanks to mass media and blind patriotism, the US forces do the same thing and still come home "heroes". Generally US citizens are raised from birth to be indoctrinated into the state of mind that capitalism and their country are morally and economically superior to everything else. They so firmly believe in capitalism and democracy that when you tell them "This doesn't work, just look at what's happening to you people," their first thought will be to label you a communist, (Another system that doesn't work.) Through this radical, nationalist conditioning of the populace their government has become so buried in its own shit that only an overpowering wake up call, (like a nuke in washington for example,) can blow them out of it and stop the US from suffocating in the shit they shat.
    To those US citizens who resent this statement and abhor the thought of a nuke hitting your proud country remember this: You nuked Japan *twice*. Fair is fair.

  156. duck

    @ FoxNewsisaLie

    You are correct, Hitler and it's ally Japan should have won the war and taken that evil America off the face of the earth. Then all would be great.

  157. sanford

    The Survivors of the "collateral damage" of wars our soldiers fight today are tomorrow's "terrorists".

    Who needs Osama bin Laden to recruit
    terrorists when we have our own military?

  158. Bad_conduct

    @peter

    ...because when our soldiers die, they offer a lot more than 2,500 dollars.

  159. Skip

    first off f*** all of u who hate on America because as soon as your country gets attacked or somethin happens ull be lookin to America for help and thats when Obama is gonna stick his d*** out and tell all of u to suck it.... u guys are too ignorant for ur own good...im not sayin Americas perfect but im an immigrant from Europe n id rather live in this country then anywhere else in the world...
    Secondly, so wat if civilians die...ITS WAR!!!!!! civilians die in war all the time, thats just how it is.... if u never been to war u cant say anythin because you do not understand the trials and tribulations these men and women go through each and everyday to protect us....sure theyre might be a couple of incidents where a soldier might have lost his mind and shot up unamred civilians but it HAPPENS....it happened in past wars and it will always happen...im not sayin its alright...but thats just the way it is....
    And finally America is not the only country at war in Iraq...so lets not go around blaming ALL the civilian deaths on America

  160. IrishKev

    @ skip
    Very eloquent, and I'm sure those civilians were asking for it anyway!!

  161. Pierre

    To duck and the other US fanatics.
    NATO's countries never voted for the invasion in Iraq within G. W. Bush mandate(s).
    I remember vividly Goerge coming here and asking my my Gov. leader (We're in the Brit. Commonwealth) if he could agree to send some of our army divisions even though we've voted against the Iraq invasion.

    Do you have any idea which & how many "Allied" countries there are in Iraq aside the USA?
    Remember that there was a 1st UN vote for Afghanistan and later on, a second one for Iraq invasion.
    EG: - Rigtht after 911, the whole world was not fully aware yet how much of a liar the USA Elite is.
    But when those clowns shown up to the UN with their little ludicrous claims that they photographed WMD in Iraq while stating that they'd rather keep the documents and photos for themselves, I count myself lucky the my Gov. Elite found the whole spaced out based on the historical behavior relating to: 1) The overthrow by the covered operation of Mossadeth in Iran in the early 50's, the CIA murder of the democatrically elected Chilian leader who gave away non occupied (Vergin) lands in Chili, against some USA based abusives corporates to install the tyranic dictator Perron, the CIA murders in Salavador followed by US Colonel North Marine training and instigating riots and murders.
    I shall leave aside the Iran/Contrats/Drugs affair under Reagan. The Rumsfeld biochem weapons sales to Saddam for which wasted shells baring the USA logo where found after Saddam used those on the Iraqi Kurds.

    The whole not only a few among so many other cases, but so well docmented by proofs & corroborations under lies detector including Ex-CIA employees living outside the USA for obvious reasons!

    Do you have any idea on how I see any & all US citizens who have the opportunity AND the responsability to vote?
    As far as I know, you have 2 political parties in the USA?
    Just to be serious, forget about the posssible other ones since they don't have any factual reality!

    Within the some 50 years after Eisenhowever left the presidency, was there really any observable differance between the 2 main parties?
    This reflexion incude the Kennedy Bay of Pigs in Cuba...
    I'd say yes! There was Carter which was a little aside the USA "Rule of conduct. But that sure didn't last long, Huh?

    A final comment for those who discusse about the definition of torture upon human beings...
    Who care if the US senate passed a law for which Bush's gang cannot be brought to a criminal court for war crimes?
    All american citizens that is since it is a US law.
    But it ain't an international law recognized by a majority of nations on planet earth! Pretty different matter.

    I really dunno what'll happen out of all that & Wikileaks on top of that? Having the signature of Rumsfeld on a document who's requsting intensification of what the rest of all nations on planet earth consider torture?

    Undersood that so many citizens consider their 450 millions inhabitants to possess the 1 & only fair book of laws.
    The other (4 billions - 450 million) inhabitants on planet earth not being educated as vicious psychotic school yard thugs.

    There is this thing that I find bizarre about the USA constitution. It is the fact that a given USA Pres. can decide on his own to drag his nation in an ordeal while turning down any request for so-called "Controled" informations. Is there only one single man (The Pres.) who can be considered trusted "Patriot"?
    Out of some 450 millions, could there be some (10-15) other "Pure" devoted USA "Patriots"?
    Who would check and double check free dubious affirmations?

    Why? Simple: You have a presidential family (2 almost in a row) who made their fortune by dealing with weirdoes who are agressing you. Bin Laden's Laden brother was in a meeting with G. Bush Sr. while the 911 event took place.
    Not much proof in there, I agree!
    But at the day or the day after, his plane took off the USA while all other airplanes in the USA were grounded.

    I do not believe in any conspiracy but comes an extent where the simple logic just ought to be in consideration!
    It was the prime and foremost responsability of the USA Pres. to hold back the Laden family inside the USA territory.

    I'd rather stop here, I'm so disgusted!

  162. Pierre

    Forgot to reply on comment about Iraqis who now plant "IED"...

    To begin with, why would those Iraqis do plant those IED if the USA vicious psychotics thugs wouldn't be there?
    To abuse them, torture, murder them & so on?

    Reminds me of the famous "1st Blood".

    The more I go, the more I turn down US manufacturers since it is my duty (Job) to source raw materials.
    Even buying in India or China is much more of philanthropy.

    I just turned down a meeting with an industrial raw materials sale's reps today.
    Another one this year but I just don't say a word about that.
    Dangerous vicious thugs...
    I personnally don't want to carry any sort of relation with such person, if "Person" is the appropriate term here.
    -May I recall: You voted as your law impose you?

    Anyhow, the USA sure don't need the rest of the world!
    Why wouldn't go invade another third-world country, it'll be easier to kill unarmed civilians. A bargain, isn't it?

    In do time, if "ET" deosn't want to buys your non warefare goods, we request your war criminals first.

    Until then have fun torturing homosapiens!
    We have eternity in front of us unless pollution wipes us out!

  163. user not abuser

    doesnt war involve 2 army's?

  164. IrishKev

    @ Pierre
    Ahhh, so refreshing to hear from someone who knows what the hell they are talking about.

  165. joeboer

    Attention.

    US has just vacated the seat as the moral power whom everybody looked upto. So they are just now a superpower bully who just like everybody else like us to think they are the good guys but are no different than any other aggressive power.

    Sure civilians deaths and other collateral damage happens in all wars but keep in mind iraqi people are not the transgressor this is a war of american choosing so it is the ultimate owner of all responsibilities. This is not a war of good and evil. Its a war that resulted from the platitudes of a few high powered individuals who dared to predict the future on their own arrogant and ill-informed knowledge of a different people, culture and world. And why did they do it ?
    They did it because the a dumb-witted president wanted to take revenge for the insults borne by his father's failure to finish the first war. And secondly he did it because he could do it and wanted to wiggle his thumb at the one guy (saddam) he thought might have enjoyed the spectacle of sept 11. In the final analysis this is a school yard fight between the rich boy with powerful friends with rich dads beating up the weaker but equally thick headed kid.
    They secretly hoped to steal the oil buried in the weaker kid's backyard in the bargain.

  166. Pierre

    I just refreshed the page tonight.
    Reread a few comments and wanted to comment on this youngster who mentioned that his father is in Iraq, always been a soldier and need to provide for his family.
    Wouldn't be able or "Fit" for another Job...

    Apart the problem directly related to international conflics, the US now has to cope with this specialized trade for which, skill is killing, murder, torture and so on.

    Did any GI or whatever US corp present in Abhu Grahib was ever trained and teached those methods, toture human beings before they actually "Experimented" those "Methods"?
    I dont think that they dream those methods in their sleep the night before, then simply decided to do it the day or the week after! Nah! Don't sh*t me!
    Some high ranking scum teached them all details.
    Because at 1 time, "Specialized" dudes used these methods in USA based prisons. "Experienced" USA prison guards.
    The USA army recruted them as well as for Gitmo or other Iraqi prisons.
    That is what is known under the expression: -"An American Way of Life" => American Pie.

    Since Eisenhower, early 50's...?
    How many generations since then?

    All this 'been lingering since a heck of while.
    Remember the deep meaning of Eisenhower words as he decided to call it a quit: -Some occult powers (If not all, I would add...) will see in the raise of the US politital power as financial tool.
    OK! Not words for words and only one part of his final speech, but the essence remains.

    How could an Afghan family who always cultivated puppy plants for generation and generations convert to a philantropic culture (Not opiate sources)?
    Same for the cocain culture in South America.
    Obviously, it ain't easy 'cause of their financial condition.

    But when a society goes threw generations & generations sinking into the practice of killing skills by choice (Not & withstanding elections...), this becomes a wholly different matter.
    Just think of this, there are "Whole families" that through generations are unfit/unable to practice any philantrhopic jobs other than to kill any other human beings!

    They obviously & litterally thrive as they launch a capped uranium deprived antitank missile from their chopper onto whatever or whoever targetn "In sight" move.
    We seen the official USA army clip as well as the combat activity formal report.
    For the sobbing ones coming back as well as for their closed ones, I vote for a total absence of pity.

    Thinking twice...
    Whatever good USA brought to human kind along with what bad it brought since ideal perfection do not exist down here, it sums up to a total of (+/-) as for all individuals I think.
    Human kind sure don't need this!

    And frankly, the whole suggest the only justification for an abortion because too fast of an evolution impose a deadly threath.

    The present international mood/ambiance can be compared to the one in the (40's-50's) far or close.
    So very different. Corruption wasn't rampant in those days.

  167. Jay W

    "Peter

    Pretty slanted. Some cases were certainly horrendous and inexcusable, but war is war. I believe this is a far left view of what happened. Never once did I hear of the horror in which the soldiers felt, or how the suicide bombers and militia dressed and carried on amongst the civilians. Why not place blame with them? I guess the video is somewhat informative, but offers more opinion that I like, or it would be much more credible"

    Hear, hear. I would also like to hear the perspective of the soldiers who actually had to survive a guerrilla warfare and come out in one piece, in an environment rife with IEDs, car bombs, suicide bombs, and being attacked by people who do not wear uniforms.

    Also, contrary to popular belief, the US is not omnipotent. If the Iraqis want to torture, abuse, and slaughter each other, and turn their own country into a living hellhole full of mass graves and corruption, then there is only so much the US soldiers could do to stop them from hurting each other. Sometimes a people need to take responsibility for their own lives and grow up, especially after 2011, when all US soldiers are scheduled to leave Iraq, hopefully forever.

  168. Pierre

    To: Jay W... The US had nothing to do over there anyhow to begin with.

    Much before (In time...) than (Quote: -"Any US soldiers felt, or some suicide bombers and militia dressed and carried "IDE" on amongst the civilians").
    So, don't you sh*t me!

    There are many societies in this world.
    How many deaths was there when the phillipino nation decided the end of the their US supported dictator tyran?
    A tyranic dictator & business fraudster.
    None, and if not 10 at most.
    Political issues, problems are not all resolved by armed conflics through armies of sadistic thugs.
    The USA didn't go over there, no oil over there...
    There are a few, a very few of these worldwide incidents were war or sedition wasn't needed.
    It simply is the mood or the personallity of a nation.
    Some "Peoples" are not like that. Plain simple!
    Presently, the same scenario happens in Tunisia.
    Who ever heard of Tunisia? It's contemporary history, I mean. Not only its geographical location...

    Anyhow, considering the "Somewhat" difficult relation between the Sunies & the Chiites in Iraq, is there other means but a "Saddam" to keep these dudes quiet? Really?
    So that their beloved hate tradition do not spread over their borders?

    After the UN voted coalition went into Koweit and set the things right, there was no reason what so ever to go gack over there to impose what the world now see. Plain simple.
    -There was and there ain't no WMD over there.
    -The USA Elite are plain liars. We now know for a fact.
    Their actions are criminal negligences much worst than driving under influcence. Criminal negligence by knowingly not doing their job because of laziness and intoxication.

    There was only a ("Personnal") business ($) different between some USA based individuals within the USA Elite and some arabic leaders ($).
    The Laden family fucked the Bush family in a "Confidential" deal with the Bush family and the Bush family then used their own assets they had at hand when it happened, among which: -The USA army.
    Saddam case just happened to stumble by within the ongoing conversation in the saloon where the Ladens and the Bush were arguing over their deal(s), and the very fact that a bystander such as Saddam is himseft an arab made Saddam the object of a little "Lesson" over some USA political concept: - If you're not with us regarding Afghan's Al Qeda, you're against us".
    We all heard that loud and clear on TV.
    Bang! A jab in the face! That'll teach you Saddam!
    We can afford ($) that thrill anyhow, we have the USA public USA funds anyhow, left aside the USA media we also own for propaganda end-use.
    Gosh! That sums up to a lot of countries to invade?
    Does any USA citizen know how many countries at the UN voted for the invasion of Iraq? How may are by your sides in Iraq?

    For the rest, I'm convinced we'll never know what deal was going on as G. Bush Sr. was into when he met some worldwide Elite on the very same day 911 occured.
    Can anyone tell me that G. Bush Sr. never ever did talk with his son regarding the Laden's?

    And on top of that, the Bush family give a special "OK" to the Laden family to fly out the USA while all other jets or airplanes were forbiden to fly over USA air territory?

    Gosh! Are all the USA citizens perfect m0@#$% or what?
    Endoctrined as much as 95% of the German nation was in the 50's? Else, could that be a "Socialized" phychosis?

    Humph!

  169. Jay W

    Pierre,

    You are right, this war was a mistake. That being said, I am all for leaving Iraq as soon as possible and watch the Iraqis grind each other into dust. Just as long as they keep cranking out that cheap oil, then it is all good.

    But what I wrote still stands, that if I am put in a life or death situation, then I will shoot first and ask questions later. And I assume everybody will do the same to save their own precious lives. Especially when they are being placed in a situation as murky as a guerrilla war. Also, if the Iraqis want to make sectarian massacres a national pastime, there is a limit to what US soldiers can do to stop it.

  170. Pierre

    Jay W...
    Still, if GI wouldn't be over, they wouldn't have to cope with this.

    I don't think that Iraqis can make much of big jump forward in terms of "Evolution".
    Same for using the chemical weapons on their Kurd minority.
    It ain't the end of world to produce chem weapons but it's a heck of an engineering matter in planing to use them effciciently. They sure needed coaching.
    -No doubt 'bout that.

    All this is "Their" problem.
    If one plays with quite a bit of "Dangerous" gun, hang 'round with tycoons, it becomes risky and mishaps can happen. Indeed, it happened.

    But I wanted to underline part of a first comment I done a little earlier. In the sense that whatever'll do Iraqis to to solve some out of their ordeals is "Theirs"...

    But what's for USA?
    Anyone noticed my comment 'about Eisenhower?
    One if not "The" best USA president ever live!
    Read me back... See the phrase: "Quite a few generations passed by since he quit"? How many US presidents?

    I don't know them all as you may expect, but most...
    Left aside J. Carter who appeared (Rather was indeed) a man of intellectual integrety, sort of having a "Knight" devotion, all others 'been organizing weird things with the CIA and that sort of USA Gov. agency.
    As far as I remember, Eisenhower quit in the early 50's?
    Take (4-8) years off for Carter... Not much left?

    Next, go have a look on Kessinger life documented on this present website and let me tell you that all considered, he wasn't that bad since the CIA was created, established and first managed by Ex-NAZI war criminals who found safe heaven in the USA.

    Here it comes: Instead of working over the Iraqis, the Viets, overthrow of democratically elected Mossadeth in Iran in the late 50's, overthrow of the Chilian leader, the Salvador aberration along with the Iran/Contrats affair, why wouldn't the USA have a closer eye on its own leaders?

    I mean that there are a few bizarre things such as a USA president who lead business operations while he's on duty.
    In many countries (Rather democratic or sort of to a certain extent), a country leader can not (Not permitted = crime) be involved, far or close in commercial business affairs.

    Another thing (I feel weird to say those things...), is the subsidees (Gift of money) to congress men.
    If there ain't no maximum $, some if not most are not permited to contribute the betterment of your society.
    Democracy become an illusion. It been seen throught history.

    Last but not least is: How come only one man in the USA (Commander in Chief) decide of the faith of a whole democratic country?
    My Gosh! Is he the only "Trusty" patriot out of 450 millions?
    I though of that when I saw the documentary of the women who lost some of their family relatives in 911...
    Some of these women got a letter from a USA Gov. agency as to : "Some confindential informations can not be disclosed because of national issues".
    And I'll tell y'a, I'd have more trust into these USA citizens that I'd have into either Bush,, Cheney, Rumsfeld etc. More true patriots than any of these Gov. officials.

    Considering that this "One Man" takes decision for quite a few other individuals, there could be some (5-15) other USA "Verified Patriots" that would be intitled to look over what ever any USA Gov. agency possess as confidential information.

    Keep it condidential as much as anyone can dream it to be but God Sake, have a few USA patriots look over these decisions before jumping into an ordeal!
    In now days, it ain't so obvious to select and vote an ideal good man, especially with the propaganda.

    How many Eisenhowever we seen up to now?
    How many Ghandi we seen up to now?
    How many Chruchil we seen up to now?

    Ok, ok... We can not expect to stumble on such individuals all the times, but if for the least, if the man (Or woman) has intellectual integrity, (5-15) USA common patriotic citizens will assess this.
    You guys have plenty of university graduates, seniors.
    Give such a duty to seniors.
    Who lived plenty, have wisdom.

    What's good for mankind is goodies for USA & vice-versa.

    HOWEVER! All that would take a hell of a time to realise!
    In short, update your consitution and give teeth to it.
    Humph! I heard that meanwhile, George's "Patriot Act" suspends civil rights in the USA? Same as a "State or war"?

    Not easy, not obvious. The road is long...

    Beside, I have my own little technical prob'm on my job.

  171. Dallin

    Great Video. Super one sided though. It didn't tell the side of the troops at all. President Bush and PM Blair did the right thing, toppling Saddam's regime and tried to promote peace in a hostile enviroment. It is too bad that the victors of ww1 and ww2 decided to redraw the maps of this region, allowing for the mixed religions and hatred to spread.

    Iraq is a rich in natural resources (oil) and should become a great place to live in about 50 years. This was a necessary war, attrocities will occur in war times. The torture is inexcusable however the civilian deaths are part of the price of war. Maybe the Iraqi people should be more helpful to the American and CF, by telling them where the bad guys are and ridding there country of the extremists/terrorists.

    Most people dont understand the duties of running an empire like the united states. There were many reasons that the US and CF went to Iraq. I will list a few.

    1. No fly zone was going to be lifted
    2. Sanctions were going to be lifted
    3. Saddam tried to kill Bush senior
    4. Saddam was about to commit economic war with the US by switching to the Euro
    5. It is time for the world especially the mid east to be done with these iron fist rulers. Democracy is the only way to live.
    6. Iraqis are people too and should have freedom
    7. War is ugly, but some times it is necessary.
    8. Iraq was a threat to the security of the united states and needed to be dealt with. Sept 11 gave the Bush white house the green light to deal with it.
    9. The dream of democracy in a place like Iraq might spread to other nations in the region and all the people could be free. This will not happen over night.
    10. For all you on here who read this and hate, just remember. All men on this planet are our brothers and all our brothers deserve freedom.

  172. Dallin

    Great Video. Super one sided though. It didn't tell the side of the troops at all. President Bush and PM Blair did the right thing, toppling Saddam's regime and tried to promote peace in a hostile enviroment. It is too bad that the victors of ww1 and ww2 decided to redraw the maps of this region, allowing for the mixed religions and hatred to spread.

    Iraq is a rich in natural resources (oil) and should become a great place to live in about 50 years. This was a necessary war, attrocities will occur in war times. The torture is inexcusable however the civilian deaths are part of the price of war. Maybe the Iraqi people should be more helpful to the American and CF, by telling them where the bad guys are and ridding there country of the extremists/terrorists.

    Most people dont understand the duties of running an empire like the united states. There were many reasons that the US and CF went to Iraq. I will list a few.

    1. No fly zone was going to be lifted
    2. Sanctions were going to be lifted
    3. Saddam tried to kill Bush senior
    4. Saddam was about to commit economic war with the US by switching to the Euro
    5. It is time for the world especially the mid east to be done with these iron fist rulers. Democracy is the only way to live.
    6. Iraqis are people too and should have freedom
    7. War is ugly, but some times it is necessary.
    8. Iraq was a threat to the security of the united states and needed to be dealt with. Sept 11 gave the Bush white house the green light to deal with it.
    9. The dream of democracy in a place like Iraq might spread to other nations in the region and all the people could be free. This will not happen over night.
    10. For all you on here who read this and hate, just remember. All men on this planet are our brothers and all our brothers deserve freedom

  173. Irishkev

    @ Dallin,
    So you think America did the Iraqi people a favour? Are you trying to start an argument? Your comment is so out of touch with reality it's unbelievable! Who made America the arbiter of right and wrong in the world? I could dispute your points one by one but instead I'll just point out the one thing you got right. America has never called itself an empire but the sooner they do the better. Then at least people will know what they are dealing with. If I was you I'd watch less T.V. and make more use of this wonderful site to educate myself before posting foolish and ignorant comments.

  174. Irishkev

    @ Pierre
    Sorry Pierre but I think you are banging your head off a brick wall trying to educate people like this. They will still think Bushblair went to war to protect their mythical freedom. One only needs to observe how the US and UK treat their war "heroes"/victims and the civilian populations in Iraq/Afghanistan to realise that their humanitarian motives are a very thin smokescreen. The American people, like many others, are like mushrooms i.e. they are kept in the dark and fed s##t.

  175. Irishkev

    Oh, and sorry for hogging the comments, does anybody have any opinions on the sex crime charges now being leveled at Julian Assange. Sniff sniff, is that B.S. I can smell!

  176. Pierre

    Irishkev? Obviously a poorly, very poorly educated USA living individual, that "Dallin".
    Freedom? In the USA? With their "Patriot Act" acting as war measures?
    (Quote) -"If you want to touch the sky, better know how to kneel".
    Maybe either a yougster, living in a remote & deep rural USA state, a USA GI who just can do earn a living apart from killing abroad or then again, an Israeli right-winger extremist as Bush's gang was.
    He just doesn't know where did Obama got his loan to get the USA Banks out of the ditch Bush sunk the USA in!
    Let him enjoy his monthly payments!
    -(Quote): -"But some times, it is necessary".
    No doubt 'bout that, and then, pay the 1.5 trillions that evaporated from the pentagon as dear Rumfeld mentioned.
    Along with that debt that comes along with the Iraq war.

    But anyhow, war crimes and international crimes were commited on both Democrat or Republicain reigns.

    What's a so-called "Iron Fist Ruler" if not a clown who pass a law such as the speudo "Patriot Act" that target its own citizen freedom? More over, a gang that institute a law that prevent their leaders from being brought to court for criminal war crimes well defined and well described by international laws?
    Anyone who backs up, harbor these guys is as guilty as the one who commited these crimes.
    One international state that a "Homosapien" younger than 18 years old cought and made prisoner in any given armed conflict should and must be considered as a war child.
    There is no other circumstances specified within this international law description!
    Such as if the typical USA consider that this or that youngster is from this or that race of a lesser God or sub-species of homosapiens.

    I know for a fact that I brought down my company's raw materials imports from USA down by 71%.
    Good, very good acrylic latex from Phillipines, Expoxies from Thailand and so forth.

    Just think of this: If the USA Gov. Elite is ready to lie boldly to the rest of the world and bad childish weird lies not well structured, what their endoctrined brain-washed thugs can do?
    It'll take a while but just ignore them.
    They are dangerous peoples.
    Don't say a word or comment (Except in an anonymous way) and they'll simply fade away with time.
    Else, their speudo-democratically elected dictators will fall apart.

    It's been like that since some 10,000 years.

  177. migrantworker

    First as to the video: Shocking but not surprising. Like all war crime.
    In response to some of the comments:

    The ease with wich those of you in Europe label this resistance of Radical Isalm an American War of America's creation is rather misguided. Lest we forget that it was America that largly footed the bill for European defence for two generations. No wonder you could afford socialized health care! For generations Americans showed up to sort out the messes Europe made with aarogant wars of National pride and expansion. Or did we forget that it was the Imperial English who created the states we now recognize in the Middle East... Hmm.. wasnt Vietnam a French Colony before we took over that mess? Blambe is a bitch.
    Should not our experiences lead us to believe that if we do not get involved early, then other peoples will let it come to genocide?

    Since when has it been an American policy to seize the soverign wealth of any people, even a defeated foe? Aside from a few corrupt officers, did Americans rob Germany and Japan after the second world war? No. We invested in their Nations and their peoples.

    To those that contest that war is a creation of primarily economic pressures and ambitions I would ask: What economic gain have you seen in the western world from our engagement in Afganistan? If we are making so much money from conflict, how come war does not fund itself? Do you really expect me to believe that large swaths of Western leadership back the war simply to make a select few walthy? That Leaders like Tony Blair, who committed political suicide to stand by his decision, did it for some kind of sadistic personal power trip? Please. There is always an economic element to war. You dismiss much however if you believe it to be the only reason.

    Most people, even those in the Millitary industrial complex, know that war is the most ugly and evil construct of man. I do not believe we have entered into these conflicts lightly.

    When another people profess a desire to see your way of life ended… Is war necessary? When these people arm political parties and respect only force as a means of governace… is war necessary? When these people, in the name of god, kill innocents on every continent save Antarctica… is war necessary?

    War is never good. But this is the “Good Fight.” I only wish that we were not the ones to have to do it.

    “Expect the blambe of those you better and the hate of those you guard” -Kipling

  178. Irishkev

    @ migrantworker
    "Those in the military industrial complex" are the ones making the money. However, it is not they, or their sons, who return home in bodybags. It is not they who watch their homes, families and way of life blown to pieces by soldiers. Therefore they do not give a s**t!!

  179. Dallin

    Migrant worker,

    Thank you for your insight. Very well written piece. I love all the hate mail I have received from my earlier piece, it was a lot of fun to read. I love how my intelligence is constantly insulted and how everyone assumes I am a red neck living in America. I am a university student studying for a preDentistry, living in Canada where I was born and raised.

    Thanks again everyone!!

  180. Irishkev

    @ Dallin
    I never assumed you were American, but then there are misguided people everywhere. Good luck with the studies but stick to pulling teeth!!

  181. Irishkev

    @ Migrantworker
    And Kipling should have stuck to making cakes!!

  182. migrantworker

    Irishkev,
    I cannot contest that the Millitary Industrial Complex stands to gain from conflict... Its a nasty notion indeed that there are those that wantonly profit from death and destruction. However, I believe this to be the exception and not the norm. If we as Americans spend life so cheaply I wonder then why we cringe as a people with every casualty in this war, civilian, military, even enemy. Consider that the 50,000 or so war dead we had in Vietnam was tiny in comparison to the Millions of civilians that were murdered by Communist regimes in Laos, Cambodia and the rest of Southeast Asia.
    "The masses are incureably ignorant" -Plato

  183. migrantworker

    Dallin,
    Couldnt leave you entirely to the wolves!
    I would say however that you should not be so quick to champion democracy. Try instead Freedom or Democratic Ideals. For Democracy shares the same weakness as Communism: Human Nature. Communism encourages apathy and fails to create sufficient individual opportunity. Democracy allows the selfishness of individuals to have far too much sway. People rarely vote for the greater good, they vote for their own good. Unfortunately these goals are not always in agreement.
    Should have known you were a Canuck. Now I have no choice but hate you for your hockey teams. Go Wings!!

  184. Pierre

    Migrant worker? Little correction I felt needed on 1 of your comments: The Brits never created Israel.
    Going back just at the beginning of WWII until its end.
    After WWI, the Brits only rapatriated jewish peoples with quite standard (Worlwide) immigration regulations.

    On the contrary, came a time that the Brits had a heck of a wild time trying to control the migration within that territory where Brits had the political power over.
    So to speak. It got real bad later on during WWII for the reasons that we all know. A quite large jewish community in western Russia among other baltic countries.

    In fact, it went bad up to a point where quite a few "Extremist" jewish factions got involved in terrorism.
    Among a few other events, bombing of hotels.
    Historitically talking, that was in a way the 1st recognized terrorist activity by the international community.

    In the end, the Brits had to get out of there, simply lost control and too busy with Hitler!
    As such, the Brits never gave the land to any jewish government of any sort. It is sort of a revolution (Sedition) that permited some jewish leader to impose their political authority over the land over there.
    This, through terrirorism actions.
    Much after WWII, they requested the UN to be recognized as a nation & as a country.
    Considering what happened in the concertation camps in Germany, all & all, it made it easy for the international community to agree.

    And we'll go round in cercle!
    Because, all that hoax about racism, languages or religion is nothing more than a 10,000 years old trick to take possession (Steal or rubbery) other belongings from peoples who worked for what they earned.
    EASY LIVING On other expenses!
    We are the sole God creature and all other bizarre humanoid species can not access a better world.

    Proof is done! A German, a Jewish or any other nations have the exact same motto! You owe me everything, let me now sit on my buttocks!

    And the world drown in his own ****,

  185. migrantworker

    Pierre,
    Appreciate your addition of solid history to my statements. I meant to be general with my statement about the Blokes so far as to help my European bretheren share in the shyt sandwich of blambe... but enough of that round-about finger-pointing! Have no desire to be inflamatory. Like most good people I am simply trying to seek truth by applying what limited intellect I posess!

    More to the premise of your response- While it may not be popular to say so: As an American I resent to a high degree my nations ardent support of the theocratic state of Israel. I respect to some degree the pragmatism of such a stance, but I believe it has cost us much and benefitted us little. I do not harbor any ill will to people of the Jewish faith, and I do not spite them a home state. However, Israel has no doubt been an aggressor state and we rarely hold them to the same standard as her Arab neighbors when it comes to raw Justice. Isreal shares much of the blambe by treating Arabs as poorly as they have been treated... So much for the Yeshiva teaching do-unto-others as you would have done to you.
    I cannot answer for the Jews... But they will certainly answer for themselves eventually.

  186. anon anon

    I have not read in history of any bully with the firepower to be taken in for their wrong doing. Worst, they come out as hero by their citizens, and all their affiliated.
    Just who is willing to strike back? NON.
    What is worst is when in their mind, these people (Iraqist) are not human, but of animals (of the worst kind) to be hunted and shot for sport.
    The sport will continue until blood spills up to their knee, and there is no more Iraq/Iraist.

  187. Pierre

    Migrantworker, About "Yeshiva teaching" I dunno exactly what it is. I think I seen a documentary (Don't remember where, I hang around a lot at "Archives.org" or archive.org).
    In that documentary, the some Gov. organisation, ministry of some sort brings the jewish youngsters (Teens) to the concentration camps museum in Poland if I remember well.
    Ideal circumstances to justify a memorandum.

    One of the teen girls mentioned that it's the same thing with the arabs in Palestine. Meaning that the arabs don't have any reason to occupy land that was once given to the jewish nation by the only real God, theirs...

    Taking this into account, anybody sure has reason to understand that all homosapiens have the exact same potential to act as the NAZI once did, as much as the jewishs, the americains, the russians, the chinese and so forth, etc...

    And since killing or "Murder" activities remains one of the most profitable financial activity anyone can think of...
    The whole comes back to the same basic concept: -Why work and earn what you own when it is so easy to steal it away from someone else?

    If needed, tell a little story that God, the only God gave you all authority over all human beings, else the closest ones and that as such, they are slaves.

    Considering that, most if not all seditions are fully justified.

  188. Billy Bingbong

    Documentaries like this are very informative, because I honestly think most people typically have no idea that more civillians are killed than military personell in an invasion.
    Try and consider an invasion on your own turf, what would you do if your family was murdered? Wouldn't you feel hate towards that invading people?
    It's hard for a lot of people to imagine how evil the US actually is, and they run the show. What a messed up world we live in. Greed man, greed.

  189. Irishkev

    Right on Billybong!

  190. migrantworker

    There is a real kill or be killed aspect to this conflict. If we use less force I would not expect the enemy to follow suit... However, at some point we must try to do just that. Lay down the sword in the hopes that they do the same and we can know eachother as people... not Americans or Europeans or Christians or Muslims etc. Just people.

  191. migrantworker

    Pierre,
    No doubt! The bottom line is we as a humanity are very quick to justify that which has no sufficient justification.

  192. migrantworker

    Billy,
    Americans, including myself, have a difficult time empathizing with an people under occupation and all the ugliness that comes with it. Of that I have no doubt, we havent been occupied for many generations.
    I beg you to stop calling us evil... all people have the same failings you see. While I think some of America's policies have been misguided and even wrong we have also been the most benevolent of the great powers to have ever graced the globe. America is not perfect, but we have many times been willing to fight and die if necessary simply to see liberty prevail... even versions of liberty that are not necessarily our own. I wonder when last your country could claim as much.
    I'm guessing that should the worst befall your country that America would show up to support you and yours. I'm not asking for blind faith... we need, as free people, to aggressively scrutenize all that our leadership does.
    I myself cannot chalk these wars up to simple greed the way you choose to. Was it greed and evil that motivated us to liberate Europe and Asia from the Nazi and the Imperial Japanese? Was it greed and evil that motivated us to defend our allies against Communist expansion?
    There are more reasons than ones of economy and wealth for the fights we have chosen to fight. We didnt rob the Germans or the Japanese, we didnt invade the Soviets when they had collapsed... I wonder what you think we are after in Afganistan, guess we must reallty need sheep and opium to bolster our economy.

  193. Irishkev

    @ migrantworker
    I'm sorry my friend, you are deluded. Don't you know that the same people financed both sides in both world wars? Afghanistan happens to lie on the route for a proposed oil/gas pipeline into eastern Europe. If you think it only happens in third world countries, check out shelltosea.ie . WAKE UP, the rot is spreading!

  194. migrantworker

    Irishkev,
    So American leadership has taken us to war so Eastern Europe can have easy access to oil? Wow, sucks to be a dummy American, to kill and be killed, and be blambed for all of it so Europeans can rob resources... Doesnt smack of truth to me.
    I may very well be deluded, what surprises me is that you assume you are not as well.
    Fair point however that the same bastards seem to profit from both sides of many wars since international banking has gained dominance. I'm not certain however that it is always instigated by them, they have afterall profited greatly from peace as well.
    Appreciate the exchange... will do my best to assume you may be correct if only to help inform my own beliefs on the matter.

  195. migrantworker

    "your comment is awaiting moderation"

    owtch... didnt think I was being that inflammatory or getting excessively personal.
    Never meant any disrespect to anyone. Hope none of my comments were taken that way.

  196. Billy Bingbong

    @ migrantworker
    Yes I see what you are saying and please understand I don't see you personally, or for that matter any American civillian or military personell as evil, just the powers that be who run the country. If you looked deep enough into any "peaceful" task the American military has performed in another country, you could probably find some ties to it benifiting Americas quest for oil. Sad, but possibly very true.
    Hitler and the Romans had the same quest, just like this quest has always been lurking over humanity - to obtain power and rule over the whole world. Personally I believe this comes from man's instinct to protect itself and its family; if you could conquer the planet and rule the world - it's safe to say your family and people would be quite secure. Maybe it doesn't make sense to everyone, but it is the way I like to look at attempts of world domination.

  197. Irishkev

    @ migrantworker
    Alright man, you tell me what American troops are doing in Afghanistan. Are they still looking for Osama Bin Laden? I don't happen to be privy to American foreign policy but from what I can make out it goes something like this,- If they wont sell out for Big Macs and Coca Cola, send in the Marines on some flimsy excuse and take what you want anyway. Please feel free to enlighten me. Will do my best to assume you can tell me any different.
    By the way, I never said Americans are dummies. It's not a very nice word.

  198. migrantworker

    Irishkev,
    I think to understand American foreign policy you must first assume that the enemy is Islam and its radicals. Its not politically correct to say so, but it matches the actions that have been taken.
    Afganistan was the first soverign nation we could get away with deployment of conventional forces to face this unconventional enemy. Vietnam taught us that to face an insugent enemy you must threaten their shelter and supply forcing them to use their apparatus and expose their true allegiance to contest you. Only then can you attack and destroy them. In the absence of this, the enemy has the advantage of initiative. Choosing at will where best to strike and when. (Sun Tzu)
    As far as Osama? Cold War history and tactics lead me to believe that he is dead already, and if not we know where he is and what he is doing. This is a far more ideal situation than simply killing the guy. We know we are dealing with a multi-headed, multi-celled organization. It does no good to cut the head off of one snake simply to have to find and kill the new head. Much better to let him rot in a cave and issue orders and communications that we can then use to our advantage.
    In short order we had run the enemy across the Pakistani border, where they began to lick their wounds and hide behind that nations soverienty. They would more than likely lay back and wait to strike when and where it best advantaged them. (like the Vietcong - Tet 1968) So, to continue to pressure the enemy to fight, we had to cook up another front: Iraq. While this had the desired effect of pressing the enemy to the fight, it was rife with unintentional consequences as you well know... friggan tribalism. Guess we should have studied more British history.
    Got to force these crazies to fight or they just fade into the woodwork, cant let that happen. The enemy has no respect for borders or nations, we must because we fight under the scruteny of the free world.
    Saddam just drew the short straw on the "bad-guy" list, giving us just enough reasons (barely) to sell the deployment to the failed history students in the West.
    Reasons of economy and the aquisition of wealth do exist, but only as a consequence of money being attached to everything that is done in this massive capitalistic orgy we find ourselves in nowadays.
    At the root is responding to a very complex enemy. War and its causes have become very different after the advent of the atomic bomb. No longer is it "My guys will wear grey, yours can wear green, capture my capital and you win, capture your capital and I win.. ready GO!"
    It does not surprise me that people simply dont understand, they still dont have a clue why we were in Vietnam, and if you try to tell them they just disbelieve it.

    Would really love to know what you think of my take on the situation... its the most plausable truth I can think of based on what I have studied.
    Sorry for the "dummy american" comment, I just love a bit of sacasm with breakfast.

  199. Irishkev

    @ migrantworker
    Erm, sorry but exactly how many American civilians have been killed by "Islamic radicals" in the present conflict? After Iraq and Afghanistan are destroyed and pillaged, who will be the next "radicals" who need to be taught a lesson?
    Vietnam taught us that the Americans got their a$$es kicked by a third world country, a lesson some people need to remember.
    In short: It's not good to invade other peoples' countries!

  200. Irishkev

    @ migrantworker
    Man, did you watch this documentary or am I missing the point?

  201. Pierre

    Migrantworker, you know what?
    Reading you, I'm lead to suspect that you are one of these "Well educated" islamist extremist that pretend to be a typical USA born or UK born citizen!
    Just as if all of what express has the goal of trigging more hatred toward the "Typical" american!

    To me, it just doesn't make any sense that an american would be exactly what the rest of the rest of the world think of them. Dangerous blood thirsty spychopaths...
    Poorly educated because of their poor IQ as your's.

    There was no Islamist ennemy when Mossdeth won the democratic election in Iran, in the 50's.
    And it wasn't that bad when the USA based CIA organized Mossadeth overthrow or murder since I lost track of the details. At that time, there wasn no reason to expect that the Shah was the CIA yesman regarding the abusal of that nation. However, after some (15-20) years, things became obvious. The whole being well "Documented" & corroborated by Ex-CIA agents retired abroad who still possess USA-Gov. memos.

    As well, it wasn't much so much of a big thing when the CIA murdered this democratically elected Chilian and organized the sedition over there to later install in power the most maniac psychopatic dictator, namely Perron.
    The only little problem in this is thrill the USA diplomat had over along side that psychopath over there, carrying exactions under the eyes of the whole planet earth.

    I guess that the whole world also doesn't care about the CIA organized murders of the Vietnamese intellectuals?
    We only took good note that the USA nation owes that.
    Just the same as the lies about the chemical or nuclear WMD.
    And the list could go on & on, Cambodia blood bath, Congo, Nicaragua, Guatemala, so 7 so on...
    All perfectly documented. Reagan admitting lying to the world and USA citizens about the Iran-Contras affair.
    It is recorded on video during the trial of one of his hired-gun whitehouse official that turned against Reagan, refusing to take the fall.

    In many instances, such details are readily availables at large. Have a look or search on archive.org.
    Else, ask an Islamist to search it for you if you're unable!

    You owe to the rest of world much more than you can pay in a thousand years. And what you owe is lives, not beasty money.

    By the way, what religion did the USA went against in Vietnam? What religion did the the USA went against in Chili?
    Which coutry felt under the communist spell when you fat assed phychopaths lost over there?

    First and above all, religion is a phenomenon specific to human beings and you don't even have the bare minimum to make it as a human being! It is extremely rare to encounter an (Lower case):=> american baring intellectual integrity!

    All humankind sure know that as much as we also know the details regarding the so-called: -School of Assasins" located in Fort Benning, Georgia. USA.
    By the way, are ou a graduate of that school?
    One of the courses they were offering was "Torture 101" under the monitoring of a doctor. Remember?
    Perron dictator graduated over there as well as most if not all South American psychopatic thugs under the authority of what you wrongly call USA foreign policy.

    That "Policy" is nothing else for you to get an erection while looking at the film of the teenage Vietnamese running over a bridge her skin dangling down her back after her family house was bombed with a "Made in America" napalm!

    Now, let me just say the following: I cut down the USA imported raw material my company used to buy by 70% within those 2 years that passed by.
    I'm in a "Commonwealty" country ok, but I have solid reasons to expect my government to give much, so very much less credibility to the USA-Gov. officials at the United Nation concil. You have any idea of what was the result of the UN vote when your USA liar Powell requested to invade Irak?
    Who are the 2 "Allies" in Irak? Allies or "Duo"?

    Obviously, humankind will not swallow your liar experts anymore.
    Because we now know for a fact that they run their nation affairs in the same way as a drunk driver.
    We call that "Criminal Negligence causing death".
    And such lazy, negligent disgusting beasts should be brough in a proper court to be judged accordingly.

    Justice as well as freedom is a distasfull joke in the USA according to your "Patriot Act".
    USA sure doesn't have anything good to teach to any other nations except maybe baboons such as you are.

    Bare mind, there are at most some 400 millions individuals in the USA, add the few other millions in UK plus your bosses, the Israelis and put that aside the rest of the world. If you guy are just unable to solve your spychopatic problems, late or soon, we shall see to it.

    Sick beasts!

  202. migrantworker

    Pierre,
    No need to get hostile. I consider myself an average American, in my 30s, public school educated, attended a small public University. My goal is to understand better all stances concerning this time of war, despite what motivations you may think I have. If you be correct, and none of my countrymen can claim intellectual integrity, then the world is doomed indeed! I assure you sir that most Americans have little understanding of what is happening as they have been mislead by Western leadership as much as the rest of the world. I assure you as well that there is at least one of us, myself, that is more interested in truth than in espousing any further rhetoric.
    I believe many of the actions my county has taken to be criminal and misguided, but this is only with the benefit of hindsight.
    It astounds me that you could blambe America for the Cambodian genocide under communist rule amongst other wild claims. Are we to be blambed for ALL the evils of humanity? I'm guessing that your "commonwealthy" was once a European colony or a holding of the British Empire. You must be ok with being subjugated as long as it is not by Americans.
    Lastly, I find it obscene that you could even suggest that I would be aroused by the suffering of a child. I find it difficult to respond to you constructively... If we were in a pub anywhere in the world I would ask you to step outside and answer for how personally insulting you have chosen to be.

  203. migrantworker

    Irishkev,
    Hard to find the most current numbers, but American civilian losses are approaching ten thousand if you count the victims of September 11.
    I did watch the documentary, and the primary point I was making is that the current strategy the U.S. seems to be employing is one that pragmatically addresses an ememy that both has no particular state and uses insurgency and terrorism as its primary tactics. Right or wrong it seems pragmatic to that end.
    Vietnam and the rest of the Cold War seem to teach a lesson that has eluded much of the leadership however, and that is the miserable failures we are at diplomacy. We could have checked Communist expansion in Southeast Asia if we had simply treated Ho Chi Mihn with respect in the 50s. He came to us, and we ignored him in favor of our French allies... shameful and costly.
    I only really bring up Vietnam and the Cold War because I believe that if you look carefully at how America chose to address the struggle with Communist expansion it gives great insight into how we are addressing radical Islamic expansion. There are lots of similarities.

  204. migrantworker

    BillyBingbong,
    Well stated sir, appreciate your insight. Undoubtedly, it is the violently self-serving nature of man that we should all be trying to correct.

  205. Irishkev

    @ migrant worker
    Man, haven't you worked out that 911 was perpetrated by your own people? Over 1 million Iraqi PEOPLE have died violently since Operation Iraqi FREEDOM began, with countless others lives' shattered by loss of home and family. Let me rephrase my question. How many American people have been killed, in America, by "Islamic radicals" in its' entire history. I'll bet Mcdonalds have killed a lot more. Iraq is no threat to the USA. The people of America have been fed a much exaggerated myth of Islamic terror in order for their leaders to attempt to justify their inhuman actions. Look at the erosion of civil liberties by Homeland Security. Above all do not believe what the American mainstream media are telling you.

  206. Irishkev

    @ migrantworker
    I forgot to add, the longer the USA occupies Islamic countries the greater the legacy of hate she will store for the future.

  207. migrantworker

    Irishkev,
    It seems to me there are enough reasons to attack the West without us manufacturing any... i.e. Capitalist domination and the Westernization of culture would be enough to motivate many in the opposition. What makes you so certain that 911 was an "inside job?"
    I know that Iraq in and of itself is no substantial threat. However, I believe radical Islamic ideas and the expansion of Islamic rule is a plausible threat. As well I am very conscience of the greed of muti-national corporations being a driving force, the only question is how much control these powers actually exert over the U.S.
    We can only attempt to put all the information we recieve through the same depth of scruteny regardless of its source. So I much agree that my countrymen, confused by a malaise of propaganda, follow much too blindly. On the flip-side we also prescribe to some rather crazy and convoluted conspiracy theories.
    Thanks again for the diologue. I have found it very helpful in digesting the arguments on both sides.
    If you know where to find that Pierre guy kick him in the junk for me. Try hard not to demonize all of my countrymen, together we will find the truth, and hopefully not too late to do what is right. Whatever that may be.

  208. Irishkev

    migrantworker
    Come on man, a ragtag bunch of terrorists hijack passenger planes, perform synchronized skyscraper demolishing and then they find a hijackers passport (undamaged) in the ashes? Non existent WMD's? It's not a matter of demonizing Americans, Big money interests are trying to pull the wool over all of our eyes in order to profit from our blindness. Try not to get bogged down in the detail, look at what is actually happening and ask yourself what is right. Sorry, cant help you with Pierre

  209. Irishkev

    Moderation? I didn't even swear. UH OH, are they on to me?

  210. Pierre

    Just for the record: Kessinger ordered a covered "Joint mission" (CIA & USAF) that heavily bombed Cambodia a little before the USA had to run out of Vietnam.
    I think the documentay about this topic is here on this website or else on the archive.org website?

    That decision known by the USA pres. but taken by Kessinger was because maybe the Viets were using the Cambodian neigboring jungle as a retreat. And it was so, indeed!
    Thus, much better have an "Allied" dictator overthrowing the formal Combodian Gov. Huh?
    The communist chineses never ever set foot over there in that era. No oil, no gold, no diamond, no nothing!
    They'd turn socialists, capitalists, extreme-right wingers anything, who care? It's their country after all?
    Do whatever you feel like with it, with the number of population you have, you just can't do much!

    Within that documentary, some B-52 bomber pilots testified to the whole operation. A couple of weeks of Bomb carpetting.
    One USA pilot died lately, another one lives, retired in Beslise.
    The one who died lately, was already retired when that operation took place.
    Sort of a quite "Post-Retirement Special Assignment" may I say?

    Needless to mention that this whole operation goes straight forward againts international war crime legislation, left aside that it was kept covered from the USA senate?

    And I think that this documentary I seen isn't the only one that exist on planet earth?
    Regarding that case, understandly!

    However, all the information contained in those documentaries may well be "Prohibited" in the "Land of the Free"? In short, the whole world knows except some 1%?
    I ain't talking 'bout 10% but rather 1%.
    A failure of only 1% isn't so bad all things considered?

    - Hold on to freedom, freedom is the only you have,
    - Hold on to justice, justice s the better thing you have!
    - End of quote!

  211. migrantworker

    Should I be afraid of your next post?

  212. Irishkev

    @ migrantworker
    No man, dont know why that happened. All I was saying was how I find it hard to believe that a small group (none of which were Iraqi or Afghan) could organise 911. There is so much that doesn't add up. Then there were the non existent WMD's. I dont have anything against Americans or anybody else but I do think you are being manipulated by govt. and mainstream media. I know we are where I come from. Keep the old eyes open Brother, and dont be fooled by the distractions.

  213. migrantworker

    Pierre,
    You mean Kissenger I'm sure, and I am well aware we carpet bombed parts of Cambodia durind the Nixon administration. The parts of Cambodia being used as the Ho Chi Mihn trail, the primary supply line of the Vietcong Insurgency.
    Just to clairify I was refferencing the Khmer Rouge who were responsible for the tourture and mass murder of millions of Cambodians.

  214. migrantworker

    Irishkev,
    Much does not add up. I cant deny the plausibilty of what you are suggesting. I still happen to think that the over-riding premise of checking the spread of radical Islam is a plausible motivation as well. It may even be possible that both are true. Not making a value judgement here, just trying to establish realistic motives for all the ugliness.
    As I have stated before, I never believed it was about WMD, or Saddam, those were just the flimsy justifications that sounded more politically correct than (my supposition) using Iraq as a front in our resistance of Islamic radicals.
    I will keep my eyes open without a doubt, and I will scrutenize information from all sources with the same tenacity. More importantly I will always assume I could be wrong and will scrutenize my own stance just as aggresively. I dont know if that will yeild the insight that brings us closer to the truth. I dont know if we will ever know the truth. Yet, I know that I am in posession of my free thought and you seem to be as well, so there is hope.

    "Never stop believing that a small, dedicated group of people can change the world...
    -its the only thing that ever has."

    (ironic how that quote works equally well for either or both of our viewpoints and can be taken as either ominous or hopeful... truth should not be this elusive dammit)

    Appreciate your time and insights Mate!

  215. Pierre

    I give up Irishkev...
    He doesn't seem aware that Bush Sr. was in a meeting with Boing Lada's brother as the planes went into the WTC.
    That is something a little more serious than than failing the addition! The Lada's family took off with their plane while all other airplanes were grounded...
    Free ticket ride at the expenses of all USA tax payers.
    No question asked!

    What happened in Cambodia was the exact same scenario as what happened in Iran in the Mossadeth era, same as in Chilie, same as in Nicaragua along with Guatemala and expected same scenario in most if not all USA foreign policies.

    Foreign political policy in which the goal is to cause sedition, then overthrow democratically elected governments to install criminal dictators.
    Blood thirsty spychopaths trained at the "School of Assassins" in Geogia, USA.
    Always the exact same scenario.

    Speaking of "Democracy"...
    They're not out of the woods, by golly!
    Left aside their new "Patriot Act", they only have 2 political parties. And based on what history teach us, those 2 parties are much more than twins!
    Up to a point where they obviously share not only the very same head but also the same brain.

    In any events, if we look back in contempory history, how could the USA be granted a justification to invade another country? It ain't much feasable considering their latest "Benefice of doubt" regarding the WMD in Iraq.
    In the eyes of at least 85% of the world population.
    I'd listen but would simply agree with other that considering their lack of credibility, simply ignore!
    Once it happened (3-5) times...
    Give the guy a nice white coat with long sleves that ties up in the back.

    So? Who will their leaders enjoy abusing if abuse become non-viable outside USA territory?
    Frankly, we see it happening at present time...
    Where the money is? At home!
    And a good part of the USA became a third world.
    The social benefits over there are based on the line of conduct: -"Me, Myself & I".

    And my gosh, look at their national debt right now, plus the lack of job, plus the drop of their dollar...
    They earn less than the cost of the interest/month.
    History teached us that a lack of money always triggers social problems.

    I sometime just have a little grin as I read the worldwide news even though it might not be funny for so many USA citizens.

    Bwarft! What can be done really in a no hope situation?
    If any smart dude tries to fix it, he or they're gonna get shot as the Kennedy did.
    Else, FEMA will lock them up in the camps!
    So... Go with the flow...
    Ignore!

  216. migrantworker

    Pierre,
    You have no humility. You sadistically revel in bashing America. For every valid point you make you simultaneously espouse pure hatred and rhetoric that makes me dismiss you. Your absolute surety of your view makes me doubt your sanity.

    Free your mind and the rest will follow.

  217. migrantworker

    Irishkev,
    Gave some thought to your point.
    It isnt as hard for me to believe a small group planned and executed 911. Be that a small group of elites, or a small group of Islamic radicals.

    If it was the elites, then it would imply a conspiracy of far reaching proportion and influence. I believe that such a group of people does exist, however I do not believe that they have sufficient control to do all of what is necessary to implement the plan. I believe this only due to my faith in mankind. I cant yet accept that such a massive group of western leadership knowingly have perpetrated such atrocious crimes. I find it much more plausible that, being capitalist, the people who could profit by this conflict have. I cannot deny however that there is a decided conflict of interest when the people who make decisions to go to war are heavily influenced (finance) by the people that profit from conflict. We should not take this lightly and I dont think we are. I have thought long and hard about ways to remove the influence of money on my country's political system.

    If the radicals did it, then it would be like any other covert action: Silent in its planning, surprising to the enemy, executed by a select and dedicated few, and so simple it could not have been accounted for. Still seems plausible to me.
    You've got me thinking tho!

  218. Pierre

    What ever I came to stands on facts.
    Remember... The illegal (Both to the USA laws & the internation war crime laws) cambodia carpet bombing never ever was expected to be disclosed.
    Same as Reagan Iran/Contrats drugs deals.
    Same for the Chilian democratically elected leader.
    Same for the training of the Nicaragua or Guatemala thugs trained by CIA/USA Army Colonel North.

    What anyone can expect as common simple human beings learn not only the documented proofs about such cases?

    Whenever anyone makes a move to minimise or obviously prefer to jump over facts, that does it!
    Stating that anyone would find weird that the USA was never, ever concerned by the mass murders in cambodia after they intentionnaly and deliberatly triggered the overthrow of the government over there does it!
    Next, we're bound to hear that the motive of a war is religion? I remenber seing better IQ! That speaks a lot!

    Does anyone remember the Allies inviting the german population to visit the concentration camps?
    I mean the german population living in the surroundings of the concentration camps?
    Their claims: We didn't know or we didn't know.
    After all, it's only jews?
    -Well, clean up the mess now!
    -Not knowing or ignoring isn't enough, on what planet were you living?

    One thing is certain, the leading (Or whatever "Elite") sure know that they just couldn't get the benefice of doubt anymore at the UN. So, what population can they prey on?
    That's for sure! Have a look on the camps braved have have build all over the USA in case of "Sedition" in the land of the free.

    Way before Bush Jr. got into power, much before, the Boing Lada family was in business with with the Laden's.
    And that was public knowledge.
    Many CIA yesmen were above well aware of this since...
    The FBI yesmen as well...

    And then, anybody would point me out for my lack of compassion?
    Well, yesterday, I turned down a NYC deal of 1 container/month of a tackifying resin, prefered to techically prove that a fillipinoe's equivalent fits the end-use. And it does...

    I don't go to war. Never did and...
    I just ignore to be pleasant.
    Got the "Mirror"?
    USA sure doesn't need anybody else on planet earth.
    Facts are facts.

  219. Irishkev

    @ migrantworker
    Yeah, I know it's hard to see till it smacks you in the face. I've been lucky enough to travel in India a couple of times and met many Muslim people and they are just like any other people. i.e. Worried about their bills and their families. There are extremists in every society. We should not be fooled into thinking that they are in the majority. Have you checked out the Zeitgeist doc. on this site. Oh, have you heard Gadaffi is blaming Bin Laden for the Libyan uprising? What next?

  220. migrantworker

    Irishkev,
    I have often theorized that the most plausible solution to the conflict would be some kind of reformation of the Muslim Church. I could easily now say that a more complete theory be a reformation of both sides leading to an end to bloodshed.
    With events in North Africa and the Arabian Penninsula, I find myself sincerely hoping that the free peoples in the Islamic world have started down that path.

    I have checked out "Zeitgeist" and "Who is Peter Joseph." While I have the same aspirations for humanity, and can appreciate having zeal for altruism, I find the approach to be lacking in any sense of pragmatism or humility. Further, I was very turned off by Peter himself. Way to much intellectual snobbery for my taste... a man completely convinced that he is not only correct, but also srtuck me as an arrogant New York liberal. Plus I am already annoyed with the new buzz-word for rudderless liberals who talk a good game, but put no action in their activism.
    Not dogging the underlying priciple of the movement though. Just wish that people with more of a sense of audience were leading the way. In my humble opinion, I doubt that his approach will do more than galvanize people that were already of similar mind. Largely useless.

  221. Irishkev

    Yeah man, I get your point, but ya gotta start somewhere.

  222. Lucas Paradis

    Right on, dont change your mindset. BTW, Assenge is being paid by Isreal not to put out leaks about them.

  223. Lucas Paradis

    war crimes war crimes war crimes wtf is stoping the International comunity from taking Bush and Cheney to that same court they took Hussein ?

  224. James del Valle

    I don't know what people expect, this is going to happen when there is an insurgency, this is the US army not the salvation army, this is completely bias unless you put yourself in the position of the US forces you are missing the real story. Lets face it if you or me were there we would be beheaded, have a little think about what that moment must feel like and the anger you would feel against the people doing it, dont have misplaced completely out of context sympaphy. Also it was never claimed that Al-Queda were ever in Iraq before the invasion this documentary is completely misleading on this issue, the fear was that the WMD that Hussein had could be given to Al-Queda after all they both hated us and were both Sunni, I hate this type of defeatest talk, no one asked for Islam to declare war on the west. Yes there is a war in many forms including a propoganda war and they are winning and will win completely in the end. It cannot be stopped in this type of society where people are so blind they condemn their own governments for trying to defend them.

  225. JohnWayne30

    James del Valle, protect what and who? I would love to attach your dumb American Red Neck self! Al-Qaeida had nothing to do with the oil you Yankees stole for blood!

  226. Myk Lab

    Um... never claimed Al-Queda were in Iraq?? Yes it was claimed, and falsely so by the government that is trying to "defend" you by engaging in criminal warfare under false pretences. The US army is subject to the Geneva convention and the leaders of your government should be tried for warcrimes against humanity. Don't justify slaughter under the guise that you and I would be beheaded if we were there. There are many non-combative Americans and foreigners on the ground in Iraq right now using their heads instead of losing them. Your "propaganda war" is not being waged against an enemy, it is being waged against people just like you. People just like you have been fooled into supporting war crimes and using main stream western media brainwashing to justify said slaughter. Hmmmm..... let me think of an example..... oh ya here it is..... comment by James del Valle.

  227. Myk Lab

    PS. To the servicemen in any theatre of war: Stay safe. To the Salvation Army: god bless

  228. nasty1985

    were is the ulster flag in your profile picture

  229. Joe Johnson

    War begets war.

  230. David

    Are you joking - - - - You must be joking - - - - now this is a real brainwashed comment - - - - You made me laugh reading after I red what you wrote - - - - -

  231. David

    My country is in NATO, and we are America's Allies - - - - I hate the fact, that our politicians are kissing America's ass, and I consider them as traitors, in the same way as I see people that were collaborating with Germans in WW II - - - - America's political system is no better then Nazism, the only difference is, that most people are to stupid to realise that, as it is disguised by great propaganda, brainwashing and the illusion of Democracy. America is like any other Empire, in the end it will fall, as any empire has fallen so far, the Third Reich has fallen, Roman empire's have fallen, Persian and Egyptian empires has fallen - - - - They will fall - - - - and I for one, am looking forward to it . . . I only pity the regular American, people that simply don't know better, nor they have any desire even to learn the truth, they will suffer the most when that happens - - - - Content to live in their own comfort bubble, choosing to believe the fairy-tales their government's are selling them. Politicians are the most useless people on the planet, they don't solve anything, they create problems, get us in to wars, and in the end it is all about POWER, and MONEY - - -and nothing else - - - - To end my Comment, the "American Bush" Establishment, and "British Blair Establishment", all those people should have been tried in Haag for war crimes. But of course that will not happen.

  232. David

    To add - - - - what people don't realise, that this kind of situation is in the American interest, simply cos they are able to steal the countries oil, while Shia and Suni are killing each other - - - - Divide and Conquer - - - Simple - - -

  233. whitedove_the_1st

    Dear American Government, my Grandfather told me "Two wrongs don't make a right", that you don't fight fire with fire, you use water. America the hypocricy is begining to show, you are not a good example of the peoples of the west, unfortunate as it is my beloved England is getting tarnished too, I understand the importance of human rights for all peoples of the world and I don't mean just the ones with oil. The west as took on the role of intervening in the conflicts around the globe and matchmaking countries for trade, can we not find a way of doing this with out being seen as clumsy, must our soldiers behave like the very people we are fighting against, is it too romantic of me to imagine the west has Knights in shining armour going to the aid of the underdogs and the trodden, one day eh !maybe.

  234. xaspadeisaspadex

    This is just the tip of the iceberg of what these idiots did there, that's the scary part about this.

  235. USALies

    No, you r missing the real story, and you have been blinded by the usa side of the propaganda war. Your very premise is a line straight out of the usa propaganda spin, which of course is winning among americans who never question their govt’s stated motives or actions. Your ridiculous premise is that “islam declared a war on the west.” That ignores the whole history of the usa’s long standing involvement in the ME. the usa has been fighting a war to control the oil in the middle east since they installed the shah in iran 60 years ago. And the usa has been totally one-sided in the Israel-palestinian war, which can certainly be perceived as america’s war on islam.
    Why do so many americans think that this began on 9/11/2001? Oh yes, that is the usa propaganda that has blinded americans like you. this was not an attack on the usa by islam; it was an attack by 19 terrorists. Do you ever wonder WHY these 19 terrorists attacked? Do you think it came out of thin air and they suddenly decided they had to attack and convert americans? That attack was caused by 60 years of american’s interfering in the ME for their oil and for 60 years o American one-sided support for Israel.
    By the way-how many westerners have been beheaded? Do the numbers compare with the 1000s of muslims that have been tortured and killed in detention camps? How many civilian iraquis and afghans have been killed, maimed and had their lives destroyed by American led wars? Do u think the usa is helping to bring peace, stability, and democracy to those [or other] countries? PS-dick cheyney knew there were no WMDs-but you’ll have to look outside the usa propaganda to find that information. U have been totally taken in.
    Why is the position of the us army the real story? How about the position of the people whose country they took over, the so called insurgency who want their own country back?

  236. Tommy

    War is and always will be ugly. A magority of posters on here are obviously people that hate America and believe every conspiracy theory from the Holocaust hoax to the moon hoax. Soldiers think very diferently to civilians in the west and they aquire an animalistic side only obtainable in war zones which they feel they need to survive. They have one objective TO STAY ALIVE!! If that means shooting seemingly unarmed civilians as a precaution they will do it and expect the Government and media to keep quite. Before people start quoting"But the Geneva convention" if you have any idea what a war zone is like you would realise that the laws of warfare are imposible to uphold especially where the enemy is no longer male and could be a 4 year old kid to a 90 year old woman. War is hell and that fact will never change. The sad part is the Iraqi people have nothing to be optomistic about it seems like the nation will continue to rip itself apart, how can you love your neighbour when a wall seperates you from them?
    My heart goes out to all victims war especially truly inocent civilians as they are always the biggest victims of this awful side if mankind they have no control over. :(

  237. Sean Hunt

    [IMAGE] is important ... it's not about whether you believe in "conspiracy theories" or not - -

  238. Sean Hunt

    [IMAGE] is important ... it's not about whether you believe in "conspiracy theories" of not - -

  239. Sean Hunt

    [IMAGE] is important ... it's not about whether you believe in "conspiracy theories" of not - -

  240. Jedo Dre

    This program confirmed one thing I heard many times before: Iraqis kill more Iraqis than Americans. This was not only true after the Americans gave birth to Al Qaeda, but it was true for many years before that. When you find out that Iraqis torture their own children, it makes wonder what the hell can be done? What's the point of intervening and trying to stop those separate incidents, when you cannot change the moral fabric of the peoples? Only the people themselves can, overtime, change such depths.

  241. mahonhouse

    too bas every americani know does not want toknow or hear or see the truth.
    I am sickened by our actions in the world at present.I also wonder why we only hear one person telling the truth-911 missing links.watch it and love it watch and hate it but watch it.

  242. mahonhouse

    thats what you took from it huh. do you think you will be out of your coma soon?

  243. mahonhouse

    i do not believe any ole conspiracy theory and no one with half a brain does nor do i believe the gvrnmnt and feel as though they are handing me their version of a conspiracy.btw it is majority no G.

  244. kongkakingchongcha

    If your comment reflects the common American perspective (according to the election result, yes) then I believe everyone around the world will have no trouble in seeing America as enemies. Also, they would have much lesser trouble in killing innocent US civilians when they have the chance.

    Perhaps in our life time or our children's life time, we will see how America pay for these war debts. Put conspiracy theories aside, US has been and I believe still IS the most active country in military activities around the globe.

    I don't look forward to ANY war at all. But the US government has been causing more and more problems around the world. Most significantly, people voted for their government, thus and I repeat, US's enemies will have lesser trouble in killing US civilians.

  245. Gary V

    A superb doc, I love it when the truth that the government does not want you to know gets out & the public can see what is really happening. The whistle blowers are the real patriotic heroes, not the ones who are taking part in these atrocities.

    * NOT IN MY NAME *

  246. Gary V

    @Jedo Dre

    Did you actually watch this doc? To know that something is happening & do nothing about it makes you equally guilty.

  247. Tommy

    Thanks for the english lesson, your english is perfect!

  248. Captain_Mannering01

    Looks like Iraq is no better off than when it was under Saddam. All that money all those lives wasted

  249. Captain_Mannering01

    WikiLeaks puts everything into perspective, shows what our corrupt governments under the name of democracy really get up to.

  250. Sebastien Astoul

    Well what do you expect, wars are always ugly.

  251. QUIGxLeY

    If wars are ALWAYS ugly then what we expect is an END TO WAR!

  252. nel86

    yeah and who is the only super power in the entire world who has ever used nuclear weapons...hmmm....oh right that was the US!!

  253. Tantonee

    We expect people to say the truth of a war started by X against X not the contrary, and if you don't know what I am talking about, Iraq is paying compensation to US against this war as if they started it, not the opposite.

  254. Zip

    okay...this is war wft do you expect? It's not all warm and fuzzy. If you run a checkpoint or look suspicious/not following rules or have a bomb laden/weapon equip vehicle and you get caught by a helicopter/soldiers you die. were they going to give any soldiers the ability to surrender? of course not. Nothing ground breaking here, very lucky this is a western army and not from another part of the world.

  255. Bakeaked

    guilty of what exactly???

  256. Corey Sargent

    you wouldn't be saying that if a foreign military invaded your country and did this to you, your family, or your people. its never ok to illegally invade a sovereign nation and kill thousands of innocent civilians. and this isn't even close to being the first time we've done something like this, we've invaded dozens of countries and slaughtered millions of civilians in the past 50-60 years, hundreds of thousands of our troops have been killed in that time because they were either drafted or brainwashed into thinking that they were protecting their country. the usa is a military-industrial empire, they always have and always will fund and promote the bombing and killing of foreign civilians in order to further their political and economic gains.

  257. ropativ

    good disclosures of abhorrent events by a world power....BUT....

    not once had I seen a letterhead on the documentary that would convince me of the information source...!

    In saying that however, I am pretty disgusting of the egotistical Bush and the manipulation of the world to wage this "unnecessary" war.....while I sympathised with the 9/11 loss of innocent lives, the american foreign policies and their implementation in other countries, often uninvited, would attract more instability in the domestic security of her citizens....!

    All average US Citizens, America is not a POLICE of the world......!! Take note of your present economic situation as of August 2011; investment securities being reduced from 3 stars to that of 2 would mean that your country would be struggling to pay your overblown national debts....and most of that debt was to finance your uninvited policing responsibilities and unnecessary wars against other's cultures....America has enough domestic problems to focus their riches on instead..now you are borrowing from China...! How ironic...! All average US citizens may not be fully aware of the government beast, but history has shown that once you do, you can change the beast to bend her will...get the honest representativess into machinery, and not the likes of Bush....know your reps as much as you can before you make a choice because the ones you voted into your Offices within the past century has probably costed millions of lives and bloodshed around the globe....!

  258. Lucy

    I hope that americans are invaded soon, this is why they are hated all over the world

  259. staszekgobi

    i used to feel anger about 9/11 but no more...

  260. dkassaca

    Viva WikiLeaks

    After seeing this video; I surely think the American people
    Will start to think for them self and not to believe too much what
    Their government tells them to think and see.

    Now. Do you still wonder why 9/11 happened?

    Thank you
    Addis Abeba, Africa

  261. Jamie19786

    This sickens me America never tryed to do any good in Iraq.The went to war based on lies and from then till now it was and is illegal.In another program I watched a boy said Saddam would have never alowed them to live the way they now do thanks to America and its allies.Wikileaks should get a nobel peace prize not Obama.Every person involved in this illegal war should be in jail for life.If the standards used at Nurenberg were now used everyone including the soldiers would be hung.People no right from wrong and can say no to an illegal order it don't matter if its from the president.At Nurenberg soldiers could not use as a defence that they were orderd to do it they were still hung.There are still Nazies being caught and jailed now at some around 90 years of age.I can't wait to see America pay for the evil it has done.Power in the world will shift to another country and then what happened at Nurenberg will happen again.Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.American citizens need to stop getting the lies fed to them by there MSM and learn the truth and protest by the hundreds of millions.How would they feel if it was them or a friend or child or any one you love.If Amnericans are good people and I know many are they need to protest and vote the criminals out of office.I'm a Canadian and we never took part in Iraq but did in the illegal war in Afganistan and should be held accoutable for the crimes commited.Next time America wants us to fight in an illegal war are government and more importantly are citizens need to tell them to shove it.We are no longer in Afganistan and thats great but there were still crimes cimmited that must be anwserd to.

  262. Jamie19786

    I wanted to tell anyone that will take the time to study it and not take my word for it to do so its all over the web 9/11 and also 7/7 were inside jobs 9/11 was done with help from the biggest terrorists in the Mid East Israel.Look at there Sampson option they threaten the entire world.One of the worst things to ever happen is to give the people that say they are desendents of the Israelites from the bible when nothing could be futher from the truth learn for youself don't take peoples word for it and don't think that you will hear the truth from the bought and paid for MSM.I never finnished my thought they had no right and should have never been alowed to take land anywere in the Mid East.

  263. Jamie19786

    So you think them devlish acts are ok because if it was a different military it would be worse your sick.And by the way America is friends with most of the militarys you speak of.

  264. Jamie19786

    I agree with the things you said but Americas time is running out.They can't fight a war with no money and they arew bankrupt.Respect

  265. Jamie19786

    Infact they are much much worse off and would rather of not been invaded even if it meant Saddam was in power.

  266. Jamie19786

    Tommy he is saying the government are the ones lieing.The ones that are giving people real conspiracys that are fact not conspiracy.

  267. Jamie19786

    Nazies are still being put in jail so lets think positive friends.Lots of things can change in the near future to 50 years from now.Just hope it happens before they are all dead and get there punnishment.Then face GOD and get his.At the top I commented on Nurenberg also Americans like Bush and Dumsfeld already won't go certain places for fear of being arrested for war crimes.

  268. Jamie19786

    Your sadly mistaken the last thing the were there for was to protect America from people that could not possibly harm America.Don't say 9/11 read and learn it was an inside job with Israely Mossad involvment.Rules of war are there for a reason if you think you are above them you should not have been there because now your a murderer.

  269. Jamie19786

    Like your comment but if American civilians get killed it was a fauls flag done by there government 9 times out of 10.

  270. kkommissarr

    vietnam is third largest oil producer in southeast asia, with an output of 400,000 barrels per day.

    the reason why u.s. went to full-time war against vietnam was dorpedo attacks aginst u.s. destroyers in the gulf of tonkin. these attacs are now known to be lies after some military documents were declassified in 2005.
    ---

    afghanistan's proven oil reserve is estimated to be 95 million barrels. also large reserves of natural gas and mineral resources. and then, ofcourse, the opium. over 90% of the heroine in the world is made of afghan opium.

    we all know how many questions unanswered by the government about 9/11 attacs wich led to war with afghanistan, and how some explanations in the official report just absolutely CANT BE TRUE.
    ---

    iraq has third largest oil reserves in the world.

    u.s. invaded iraq because hussein was making weapons of mass destruction.
    not one such weapon was ever found in iraq.

    to me it seems painfully obvious but what do i know, right?

  271. T

    [The war in Iraq is] a rare opportunity to move toward an historic period of cooperation. Out of these troubled times...a new world order can emerge.

  272. Tiernan

    Wake up will you! you wouldnt be as comfortable in your life as you are now if it wasnt for men and women like these, who you never met by the way, putting there life on the line for you. Dont get me wrong, I dont agree with everything the Americans did but in all fairness name an army with whom you do agree with all there acts. If you didnt have oil you wouldnt be posting your stupid comments on the internet cos you would have no power etc. Wake up. By the way, the americans went to war in vietnam because of what was two supposed torpedo acts. The first they acted upon and it turned out to be wrong, they second they didnt and it turned out to be a legitimate attack. Who will you call upon if your ever invaded? Or we could all be communists and end up poor

  273. Tiernan

    Seriously, WAKE UP! All you liberals who think the world should be all happy and blah blah blah havent a clue. If it wasnt for men and women like these you wouldnt even have the opportunity to express yourself or oil to run your sad little lives. War has existed since man could make weapons, its in our nature so build a bridge and get over it. Just be grateful that you are lucky enough to be in the position you are. Dont get me wrong, I dont agree with killing unncessaryily or for greed but you have to put things in perspective. By the way the Vietnam war wasnt started on a false torpedo attack, in fact there were two supposed attacks. One which was false and the americans reacted, the other actually did happen and the americans didnt react. Get your facts straight. Also, if we arent going to chase, bomb and kill these people what is your alternative? Talk to them? Put them in jail, where they can be as influential as ever? Afghans have no worries about supplying us with killer heroin or cutting peoples heads off on TV, so f**k them i.e they dont worry about us so why should we them? At least we kill in style! We are protecting our own interests and why not. Blow them back to the stone age! (well in fairness they arent far of it anyway)

  274. mike maruk

    9/11 was an inside job, nearly free fall speed for buildings that were "desinged" to take the impact of plane. Also, bulidings made in other parts of the world, in the same 1970 era, or later have also taken simalar inccents, such as the fires that happened in the trade centers, why is it that they were able to stand after the burning?, some up too 20+ hrs, still remain standing. The elements that are in the jet fule mixture, also do no produce enough heat to vaoprize titanium, which is a major metal in the planes engines, which was never found, along with any other part of the plane. How is it that it just so happens that 4 planes on the same day all vaporize in accidents, all which were first, second, thrid and fourth cases known...too many odd questions left unawnsered, funny thing is people complain that the states would never kill there "own", but yet how many of there "own" have died fighting this senseless war?, created to make money for the rich, and keep the poor, poor. I live in Canada, and i think **** is messed up, all over the place...no matter what way you spin it, if you think like this your a "hippie", or unrealiztic, why is that? and why are we that? why arent you looking deeper into what your told, why live judging a book by its cover...

  275. Raphael Hebert

    war isn't in human nature, it's a part of your culture, in the past humans used to fight to survive, but today in the states you are still convinced to be the elected ones, as an heritage of your founding fathers, so you think that what defines your culture defines the whole world, as the white man's burden, this is ridiculous, get back to school we're in 2011, you're nature isn't what defines the man's nature, so seriously WAKE UP war is in YOUR CULTURE, cruel people

  276. wpsmithjr

    A couple of points:

    Most members of the military are simply doing their job and following orders. Like the rest of the brain-washed masses in America, they think our nation is a force for good in the world. They don't see our leaders as the criminals they truly are. Well, many do now. The ones involved in the fighting.

    Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is this...

    The elite explorers, rulers, politicians and other "leaders" of society have ALWAYS taken advantage of their citizenry and still do today. It doesn't matter if you're talking about British colonialism, American "capitalism" or Ottoman confiscation... there has always been a small group of wealthy, elitist f*cks that have enslaved their people and forced them to ravage and/or conquer another group of people (who were already enslaved by their own group of rich elites).

    When will the people of the world stop arguing over capitalism vs. socialism, west vs. east, U.S.A. vs. the "terrorists", left vs. right, liberal vs. conservative, jews vs. the rest of us, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH?? When...

    It is... and always has been... the people vs. their rulers. When we, the people, figure that out... then the game will change. Until then, wealthy, immoral, power-mad elites will always rule the world... and always have "the people" under their thumb.

    And they will always use DIVISION in order to maintain their rule. To keep us all at odds with one another... so we don't try to blame them when the s.h.t.f..

    Why do you think Obama vilifies "the rich" so much... when HE is one of them? So in the end... you won't go after the ruling class... just the business people... like they are doing in Britain right now. Burning down ordinary mom and pop businesses because it's all the fault of "the rich". You should be after the Queen's head instead.

    Btw...

    Vote for Ron Paul 2012
    He doesn't want you to be his slave

  277. Atkins21

    I judge documentaries by their covers, and "I like turtles"

  278. Nakor420

    No matter what our intentions were in the invasion, when a country goes into another and leaves a million civilians dead in it's wake, that country automatically becomes the bad guys. A MILLION! I was in the Army on 9/11, and loved my country. Now I am almost ashamed to be american. May god keep those poor souls.

  279. Francesca Fini

    @ tiernan I'm waiting to hear from you when you will be evicted or will find out that you will never get your pension because your big country is in recession to go to war and make your nice corporations rich. Good luck!

  280. Tiernan

    Im nowhere close to been evicted and dont go thinking you know the state of my country cause you havent a clue. Chances are you country is in trouble and your so dumb you dont know the half of it. At least we Irish try to fix our mistakes and progress. Look at your own country first and you are as corrupt as any country can be so dont lecture us Irish about such matters cause we are way ahead of you. Chances are your country was a third world country 30 years ago and no one cares. The point is if you didnt have people like these protecting you liberal, boring, hippy wannabe ass we would all be under dictatorship. Grow up, build a bridge and get over it! By the way, what does 'God luck' mean? Dope!

    Subject: [topdocumentaryfilms] Re: Iraq's Secret War Files (WikiLeaks Special)

  281. ropativ

    This documentary is poorly presented in the sense that the validification of leaked information was confined to the opinions of only a few nobodies. The narrative was so one-sided in its view that it became so unclear, whether all these 'counted and numbered' civilians, were either killed in crossfires, or by suicide bombings, accidental or deliberately killed by coalition and US forces .

    This is a typical propaganda material which is extremely unbalanced in its perspective.....it is simply garbage.

    And by the way, I am not American. And by no means had I supported the invasion either.

  282. Candace McFarland

    Hell, we did it to the American Indians...

  283. johngsalisbury

    How many died in the Iraq-Iran War that we didn't even really hear about. I think 250,000 conscripts were killed in Iraq. For wha? They have 30 million people. In VIetnam we killed over 2 million Vietnamese and lost 60 thousand Americans (not counting wounded) for what? Now cruise ships stop there and give tours by Vietcong's children. I am still angry we normalized relations with Vietnam because they just waited for us to pull out and then broke the treaty. We could have B-52 carpet bombed the NVA while they were in the open rushing by columns to Siagon. Instead we had to get out with roof pickups. Embarrasing!

  284. Guest

    your spreading filth and distrust. this kind of thing has happened since the first civilizations. get a grip

  285. Jeremy

    You can always tell the propaganda infused idiots by their lack of an ability to just admit warfare is wrong. Every single individual defending the actions taken by the administration should be tried alongside them. You are disgusting sad human beings, and you're rhetoric is what kills people. Die and let the world progress, we don't need your fake religions, laws, money, or wars anymore. Think big or you will always be stuck in a small sad world.

  286. Jaguar Paw

    I agree with what you've said, but "and you're rhetoric" is wrong. Taking an extra moment to proof your comments would strengthen your position. Peas Brodo.

  287. Jaguar Paw

    You're* spreading bad grammar. This kind of thing has happened since language was invented. Get an education.

  288. Jaguar Paw

    Astute observation.

  289. Jaguar Paw

    Tell those hippy scum!

  290. ProudinUS

    Wow, you got 3 likes for that post...impressive! I wonder what you would do if I wrote you out a check for $10,000,000. The only stipulation is that you had to give up your freinds and back what ever I say up. Plus condone every war the US has?..........please don't think you're someone that would just flat out refuse it, because we have enough

  291. Manohar Al

    at first US has a reason to fight up on saddam n group....later also they unnecessarly kill civilians..of that a long batellion ,cant they keen in to civilians only attack rest ,who r bad...president..of US should take action highly up on this..no insanity ...only protect..if u like to shoot...shoot in video games..or paint ball...not on people...

  292. ytrewqytrewq

    It's entertaining too see wars unfold and especially the story behind it. Really, not only can you see huge mushroom clouds and countless dead bodies, the drama of defenseless people getting killed by heavy artillery is just priceless. Great stuff, really, so who's next? Iran? China? Africa? maaaan, can't wait. Who cares about wartorn or depleted uranium? If only george carlin was alive, he sure will enjoy this....

  293. MK Yoo

    ignorants american soldiers do not know what they have done,
    they are played by american propoganda, that was the same with viet nam war,
    mudering 1.5 mil innocent civilians,Stealing iraq's old babylon cultures are to liberate IRAQ?
    so stupid and evil ,crazy ,GOD will judge the stupids and brain-washed soldiers controlled by AMERICA politicians ' evil. bush's talking LIBERATE IRAQ from dictator is disgusting execuse,

  294. Evans

    Iran?(country), China?( country), AFRICA(continent!) I didn't know Africa is a country. And if i may ask, who is the president? I hate when idiots underestimate Africa, a continent which is larger than any other except Asia. A country invades/go to war with another country not a continent. I am not from any African country. I just hate my fellow Americans who think Africa is some island/state/country. I don't know if its out of arrogance or ignorance.

  295. Atombs116

    i never hear anything good out of this no one broadcasts the good we've done always love to highlight the bad. its a war and the enemy employs tactics to blend in with the population. Its easy to sit there and judge my comrades but to be there is something else.

  296. Martin Hedin

    Was it not evident from the beginning that to invade Iraq with the little resources used by the coalition, nothing good could come out of it? The troops barely had personal and equipment to protect themselves, and not enough money was put into reforging the Iraqi state. Of course people would suffer. You would need ten times the manpower to keep everyone safe in the post invasion period, and you would have to spend 50 next years occupying the country to make sure that things were working alright.

  297. Wendy Diamond

    this is so R*TARDED!! Why are they blacking out information from us when this is supposed to be a documentary to EXPOSE US Forces??? very interesting!! now I must question the creditably of Top Documentary Films.

  298. Wendy McSmokealot

    you guys suck. I dont know what kind of website you're running here. This is a documentary that is supposed to EXPOSE US Forces, yet in the film, half the "leaked documents" are blacked out.. very interesting. Now i have to question the creditably of Top Doc Films

  299. Achems_Razor

    Wendy...TDF does not black anything out, has nothing to do with us, that is just the way the documentary is streaming from the source, if you have any issues take it up with whomever produced the doc. not TDF.

    And please use only one handle with one email addy.

  300. Tiago Tomé

    To the Wendys of the world:

    This doc exposes the US Forces as a military force and not as a group of individuals.

    The soldier is only the tip of the spear, not the one who chooses the direction of the spear.

  301. batvette

    "GOD will judge the stupids and brain-washed soldiers controlled by AMERICA politicians ' evil"

    Really? Does GOD know you're running around on earth making threats and passing judgement on others from behind the authority of his name? I would never speak for GOD but the logical assumption here is that what I've heard about GOD means your behind is toast when he gets his hands on you for that nonsense. Why don't we let GOD do what GOD does- for now that seems limited to being a word humans like to throw around pretending they know what he wants and how best to please him.
    As for the war in Iraq well Saddam Hussein had this strange pursuit of wanting to be known for being the guy who was the best at kicking everyone's behind- and if it didn't work out that way he wanted his behind kicked in the most extreme way.

    He got his wish. No apologies necessary or forthcoming.

  302. batvette

    You're a regular Che Guevara, aren't you?
    You want the world to "progress", but think "laws" and "money" are fake? So let's throw out laws and money and "progress" to what? Witch hunts and trading dead animals for womenfolk?
    We don't need wars, we'll all just sit down and talk our way through our conflicts, right? My word, how did the world ever manage until you came along and figured out everything was soooo simple?
    Typical childlike anarchist talk, by those facing realities of having to move out of the womb like comfort of mom and dad's house and trudge through life until you die unsung like the rest of humanity.
    And no I won't loan you a twenty for dinner and a beer. But you don't need any fake money, right? You'll run away from home and live off the land... haha!
    In about 5 years you'll be able to vote. Let's hope our education system doesn't let you down and your choices will be well informed.

  303. batvette

    From your comments about protecting boring liberal hippy wannabes I would say we are 100% on the same page in ideologies... but of all the countries one can safely dispense lectures from... Ireland really doesn't pop into my mind too often.
    But if it makes ye feel good, have at it- mind ye if you get liquored up and/or start acting crazy and take to fightin', we'll have to lock you up as usual!
    (sometimes I wonder if they forget so many of them came here and exist with pure blood, as if we haven't experienced their joyous company? I was engaged to a McKay, lived with her for a year, God bless her- if the devil hadn't possessed her first!)
    Really maybe it's a mistaken stereotype that most Irie I see online are quick to condemn America for "warmongering". So maybe my perceptions are wrong. Maybe I'll just offer you the title of "honorary American John Wayne" FWIW. LOL!

  304. batvette

    "when a country goes into another and leaves a million civilians dead in it's wake,"

    A million people starved to death under sanctions, you blame us for that too? Should we have allowed Saddam to keep attacking his neighbors we had agreed to protect because solving the problem once and for all might have negative repercussions for the people who supported him-either willingly or at gunpoint?
    To hell with all that, and if this is your perception of the situation the Army is no worse off without another bad attitude permeating the ranks.
    What people like you seem to forget is that Saddam represented a dictatorship which completely oppressed people and silenced any dissent. What we represented was the ability to go into the country after we did and criticize us for it. That DOES inherently make us the good guys even if some lack the perspective to realize if we were Saddam this documentary or even the ability to view it....
    Would. Not. Exist.
    USA-#1. And we defend to the death, anyone's ability to say we aren't.

  305. batvette

    What do you know, well maybe not a lot... Google joint resolution Iraq if you want to know more- specifically:

    Whereas Iraq, in direct and flagrant violation of the cease-fire, attempted to thwart the efforts of weapons inspectors to identify and destroy Iraq's weapons of mass destruction stockpiles and development capabilities, which finally resulted in the withdrawal of inspectors from Iraq on October 31, 1998;

    Whereas in Public Law 105-235 (August 14, 1998), Congress concluded that Iraq's continuing weapons of mass destruction programs threatened vital United States interests and international peace and security, declared Iraq to be in `material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations'

    and to compel Iraq to cease certain activities that threaten international peace and security, including the development of weapons of mass destruction and refusal or obstruction of United Nations weapons inspections in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 687 (1991), repression of its civilian population in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 688 (1991), and threatening its neighbors or United Nations operations in Iraq in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 949 (1994);

    Whereas the United States is determined to prosecute the war on terrorism and Iraq's ongoing support for international terrorist groups combined with its development of weapons of mass destruction in direct violation of its obligations under the 1991 cease-fire and other United Nations Security Council resolutions make clear that it is in the national security interests of the United States and in furtherance of the war on terrorism that all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions be enforced, including through the use of force if necessary;
    Whereas it is in the national security interests of the United States to restore international peace and security to the Persian Gulf region
    -----------------------------
    summarizing, Iraq having or developing WMD threatens peace and security of the region and thus our national security, Saddam had obstructed or thwarted attempts to verify the disarming of WMD per 1991 cease fire agreement.
    The game was over and ugly as it was it was necessary. Want proof?

    Describe how it would be possible today to ensure Saddam could not threaten his neighbors with WMD. Nope, couldn't do it. It does not matter what we found or did not find after the fact.

  306. batvette

    "This illegal war..." Oh that's funny. Cite the code and jurisdictional authority.
    You can just go now, and take your fake witch hunt posturing with you.
    "In another program I watched a boy said Saddam would have never alowed them to live the way they now do thanks to America and its allies."
    That's brilliant! Would Saddam have allowed a western journalist into the country to interview this boy about how he lived and tell the world?
    You can get on your knees and grovel in thanks to America and its allies that you have the free speech to spout off complete ignorance, comrade!

  307. batvette

    The USA installed the Shah of Iran.... Do tell! You mean he wasn't the Shah before we got there? Where did he come from? Was he an Iranian who was part of a monarchy that had ruled for 2500 straight years or not? Oh but of course empty headed America hater would pretend that all evil in the world begins when America touches something!
    Fighting a war to control the oil in the middle east, that's pretty rich! How about we would be perfectly happy to leave the region and let the savages go about killing themselves as long as they could deliver the oil to us with some stability? No that's never been possible because the pursuit of regional conquest by tyrant after tyrant like Saddam inevitably involves using oil as a weapon to influence powers greater than they to use against their enemies.
    Never mind they lacked the technology to get it out of the ground themselves.
    More ignorance- 60 years of one sided support for Israel? Is that supposed to be comedy? Whose fighter planes fill the airfields in Saudi Arabia? Who paid for countless bases in UAE? What countries lavish US Presidents past and present with millions of dollars for their personal libraries?
    Another howler- Dick Cheney KNEW THERE WAS NO WMD. Lots has been said about him but I didn't know he was GOD too! NOBODY knew any such thing, not a single report by any intelligence agency nor the UN or anyone has ever been uncovered concluding any such thing. But please, tell us Mr. "look outside the propaganda" SHOW US THIS INFORMATION you have that motivates you TO LIE ABOUT THE US and our policies.
    You are a liar or ignoramus or a combination of both-but what has the US done to you, personally, that causes such extreme hatred that motivates you to publish such extreme fiction to malign our image internationally? What did we do to you to motivate you campaign of lies?
    9/11 was caused by our flaccid policy of allowing the UN to try and starve to death the people of Iraq to punish their dictator. Their corruption caused only the opposite of its goals. 9/11 revealed the bad direction our Iraq policy was going in and necessitated the invasion of Iraq. For the long term good of the people of Iraq and the Middle East and in the interest of decreasing US involvement in the region, we did do the right thing in removing Saddam Hussein.
    It's too bad some people lack the vision and perspective to see this, or worse, lie and actively work toward ruining this policy.

  308. batvette

    Which was evident by your complete lack of attempt to refute anything he said. Like this: You said above we were stealing the Iraqi's oil. How is this consistent with the FACT that the bulk of oil exploration contracts were awarded to French, Chinese and Russian oil companies, with the revenues paid directly to the Iraqi Petroleum groups? Can you challenge these facts or explain how grossly in error your own claim is?
    Would it have been more credible for me to simply reply to you, "oh you must be joking... that's really brainwashed... I'm laughing at the American propaganda..."?

  309. batvette

    The joint resolution did in fact claim "members of Al Qaeda" were in Iraq, and that was confirmed to be the case. What's your point, catching someone you disagree with on a technicality?
    The bigger point is that Saddam Hussein had long allied with and supported international terrorists whose ideological goals allied them against the US and our interests abroad. Including Islamic Militants. You can't possibly refute or deny these facts and in light of 9/11 and Saddam approving of the attacks and then later broadcasting on Al Jazeera his reaffirmation of approval of terrorist attacks on Israel and raising his bounties for suicide bombers, this clearly justifies and validates our rationale for terrorism being associated with the Ba'athist regime in Iraq.
    Who is supporting "war crimes"? How about nobody? But who am I talking to but someone who says the war was based on false pretenses.
    To that end you can produce a single intelligence report by any country's intelligence agencies which was available to the White House before March 2003 which judged Iraq had disarmed itself of WMD and was no threat to its neighbors.
    Let alone the terrorism aspect- it's public record Saddam paid suicide bombers to blow themselves up in Jerusalem- they even held parties for their families! Paid out over 120 times! False pretenses! What the heck are you talking about? Soon after the invasion we found a cache of almost a hundred suicide bomber vests, full of ball bearings and C4, in a school in Baghdad, that witnesses say were hidden there by Saddam's Fedayeen! What more do you want? SADDAM WAS A TERRORIST.
    All of this information is out there yet you've come to some bizarre conclusion it was the US that lied and our citizens are the brainwashed ones? I don't think so.

  310. batvette

    Ha, he's one of the few here who has all his facts in order. Which is of course why you avoid them and say you "would" address them point by point but... Carry on. Ignorance is bliss and garners an audience of your peers, don't mistake that for being factual.

  311. batvette

    Comparing anything the US has done in Iraq with atrocities by the Empire of the Rising Sun in WW2 displays ignorance as unspeakable as the atrocities themselves. The vivisection experiments at Fukuoka- just google that alone and read about it please- the accounts of the march to bataan, the slaughters at nanking...all you did by comparing these things is show you don't know anything about them at all. You call this "stunts"? They slaughtered hundreds of thousands in cold blood for sport!
    Pure ignorance.

  312. blank21

    My feelings go out to the Iraqi children that lost their lives for no reason at all and their families. Bat you must be one of the most misinformed people I ever seen, I almost feel as though your comments were written as a joke. I didn't read all of them but you commented 500 times because you have no life I guess. Some of things you said are absolutely false. Yes,The war is about oil. Its all about the corporate elite trying to gain control over the resources. This has been the basic plan for the last 150 years. Spreading democracy is part of a wider plan for capitalists to control the world through economics, this is why they celebrated when the Soviet Union collapsed, they knew their was no one to stop their greedy plans. You see, when America successfully came out of the World Wars they knew they had an opportunity to control the world, this was going to be Americas colonial period. Sugar coat it by telling the world that everyone needs democracy. But this is bad judgement because some cultures just dont work under democracy, what america fails to understand is that is america is the baby on the block and the rest of the world has carried on their cultures and traditions for thousands of years, they dont need america to tell them what to do and how it works. Democracy isn't bad, but under the current system it just gives the west one more country to dominate because no country will flourish under democracy when only a certain few control all the resources and money. Anyway, without getting into a long lecture, the american government, especially under Bush could be perceived as the great satan because alot of the turmoil and anger is due to the changing international system that the west is imposing itself on a culturally rich region of the world, Islam is not full of terrorists this is a fabrication that the media created to continue the war on terror.

  313. William S

    USA#1.... OH dear. What an infant disease you have. There are many brutal totalitarian regimes around the globe, does that dictate that the U.S has the right to invade and occupy sovereign lands? Then choose the form of governance they see fit to rule? As well as privatising the natural resources for US profit? Sounds almost like... not democracy at all...? Haha

    "The most important undertaking of the first George W. Bush administration was its war in Iraq. Now, at the beginning of the second Bush administration, there is a growing consensus across the political spectrum that this war may be the president's most disastrous undertaking as well. What sort of rationales got him, the vice president, and the Pentagon—and the rest of us—into this mess?

    The initial justification the administration gave for the war, the threat posed by Saddam Hussein's wmd, was of course discredited when no such weapons could be found. The
    second justification, the purported connection between Saddam's regime and Al Qaeda, had been discredited by most American experts on terrorism even before the war began, and indeed NO evidence of any such connection has ever emerged.

    By summer 2003, only one justification for the war remained to the administration, and that was its claim that the United States could bring democracy to Iraq and that Iraq would then become a model, and perhaps even a base, for the spread of democracy to other countries in
    the Middle East, particularly Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia.1
    Now, two years after the beginning of the Iraq War, the promise of democratization remains the only justification for the war. It is not surprising that the Bush administration keeps telling the American people about the value, indeed the necessity, of the U.S. democratization project for Iraq and for other Muslim lands as well. The administration is always pointing to some impending political event, such as this or that election, to demonstrate that democracy in Iraq is just around the corner. Of course, whenever U.S. military forces turn a corner in Iraq, they keep getting hit by the improvised explosive devices planted by the Iraqi insurgents.

    The U.S. democratization project in Iraq and in the Muslim world fits into along chain of U.S. democratization efforts that reaches back to the beginning of the twentieth century. Some of these efforts were successful, and some were not. Together they form a pattern that can tell us something about the prospects for the democratization efforts now underway in Iraq. The current insurgency against U.S. military forces in Iraq is doing
    much to increase the appeal and strength of militant Islam and indeed of
    transnational Islamist terrorism."

    Written in the spring of 2005. Have a read on how Iraq as a nation is functioning today!

    "What people like you forget"... is the US is a neo-empire that has been loosing its grip since the end of the Cold War. Now the military industrial complex has eaten itself, destroying its economy similarly as the Romans did.

  314. Sim Ulater

    Wait just a minute. I deployed 3 times for this country and I will tell all on this board that we are talking about American Soldiers here. If a Commander gives a subordinate a direct order that violates any policy, an individual soldier has the right to question that authority. Everyone just passes the buck because we have become a country with just indians. I have PTSD and I struggle with my successes AND mistakes everyday, but I don't run from them. So as one of the many "tips of spears" I suggest to the readers to not think every soldier was a blind mouse. My soldier got his legs taken because my unit avoided policies on "up-armored vehicles". Do we blame the enemy or the neglectful. Morality is not for your leader to dictate.

  315. Jane Doe

    when is war good?

  316. Jane Doe

    I'm assuming you wrote this before you found out the truth of what really happened in the Gulf of Tonkin. I choose to believe that you are unaware, because the alternative is too disgusting.

  317. ogger151

    A million people starved to death under U.S. sanctions. So yes that would be our fault. And we could of defended The Kuwait border without destroying a whole country. Oh but the oil prices they gave us where too good or should I say access because the price went up. Now we are all broke and unemployed.

  318. batvette

    You're saying without the war we would not be broke and unemployed? What makes you think that?
    The price of oil now has little to do with the Iraq war,though it's easy to posit had we left Saddam to continue his endeavors toward regional conquest it would be much higher by now than it is.
    More importantly what would the dollar be worth?
    Spit.

  319. batvette

    Please don't assume everyone buys into the poorly formed bull**** arguments that war critics have been selling.

    "The initial justification the administration gave for the war, the threat posed by Saddam Hussein's wmd, was of course discredited when no such weapons could be found."

    Yet the AUMF never claimed any physical possession of WMD at the time, and instead cited the continuing threat of his programs as well as his willingness to use it. I guess you let murderers walk free if you don't find the weapon on them after they commit the crime? The very fact so many of you pass off that as a valid argument displays why democracy is so flawed.

    " The second justification, the purported connection between Saddam's regime and Al Qaeda, had been discredited by most American experts on terrorism even before the war began, and indeed NO evidence of any such connection has ever emerged."

    Of course it was, which is why it was never claimed in the AUMF. What was claimed was his prolific support for international terrorism, which he was guilty as charged.
    So you set up a straw man and knock it down. People at the adult table of US foreign policy discussion are not amused or swayed.

  320. jasperW

    this is not because the highranks say so, they dont know what the hell they see, the guner is bagging to shot.. he is triger happy.. he just say's sh*t to kill them

  321. Mahi Tuna

    some of these documents when released would cause the death of people who would be exposed. Assange had no problem with that, the newspapers did. The newspapers saw no benefit in identifying a national working with the US to be executed, they did not see themselves as judge, jury, executioner. Assange finally caved when he realized the public might view his need for transparency does not warrant the execution of people or him to decide who should be executed.

  322. eric wagner

    I like how they don't mention the part where you can clearly see them with rifles. They only point out the guys with the cameras but ignore the guys near them with rifles.

  323. Rolando U Parra

    I would guess someone could well say manufactured consent, a term popularized by Dr. Chomsky.

  324. Emodi Kann

    Christian Whiton is an obvious CIA plant in the MSM! What a POS! Apparently he doesn't grasp the concepts related to freedom that resonate with the American public. There shouldn't be secrets kept from the public; and the belief gov't agencies tries to perpetuate that they are keeping secrets "for our own good" is insulting and asinine. Granted, we don't expect publication of planned military assaults, but once they occur, we have the right to know what has taken place; the actual number of individuals killed/injured; the goal; and how our soldiers participated. The families of military members also deserve the truth if they are injured; how/why it occurred if possible; and the soldier's wishes whether to be returned for burial or cremated must be respected (Unlike the Seal Team 6 members whose bodies were cremated against the family's wishes deliberately to conceal evidence).

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