Kingdom of David: The Saga of the Israelites

This series started out ok, then turned into speculation in the middle of the first episode. Either this documentary is a few years old, or they just didn’t know about recent discoveries to the Exodus. Here are some links to proof of the exodus from Egypt, imperically, not just by faith. They include charriot wheels at the bottom of the sea, and I’m surprised that anything is still left after several thousand years, but fortunately some are. If they are there, anyone can go look at them. They’re there.

It’s worth a look:

The Red Sea Crossing: 26 minute video.

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.htm

They also mentioned they found only one Biblical site mentioned in the Exodus. Here’s a link to the discovery of Mt. Sinai discovery.

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/mt__sinai_found.htm

Mt. Sinai: 18:43 minutes long.

Vlatko: These links directly pertain to claims in this documentary specifically. I do hope you let me post the links for those that are interested.

I have found these videos also on Youtube, but this is where they came from. There’s no charge to watch the videos from this website, and it is religious, but not overly evangelistic if you just want to study the archeology alone like I do. In fact, I think I will rewatch them again tonight myself!

Charles B.

The most TRUTHFUL documentary I have found on the OT the so-called reign of King David is ‘The Bible Unearthed’. One of the top biblical archaeologist and professor at Tel Aviv University. His name is Israel Finkelstein, a jew with no reason to lie. He is one of the few with the integrity to tell it like it is.

Also, in the ‘arkdiscovery’ link, which ark are they referring to since the OT god had moses construct two and each was for very different purposes from the other. One ark carried the second set of commandments that replaced the ones moses broke in a hissy fit and the other ark was a powerful electrical weapon used for such things as destroying the city of Jericho. When the genious Nicoli Tesla read the instructions to constructing the latter one, he knew what it was and made a small one to scale that nearly shook the building he was in to bits.

The pharaoh was probably chasing after moses and his band of thieves because they realized after moses and his band of lepers left they had taken the ark weapon. The bible is not what we have been led to believe. Moses was a brutal criminal who hoodwinked a group of ignorant superstitious people into becoming thieves, rapists and mass murderers. King David was just as bad, as was Solomon who even stooped to sacrificing his own children to Moloch/Baal. BTW, moloch and baal and yahweh were one and the same. Yahweh later drops his baal idenity and says he will no longer be called baal.

Reb: Why don’t you look up the link and find out for yourself?

Israel Finkelstein’s motive was simple: He wanted us to view the Bible “as an artifact to be studied and evaluated rather than a work of divine inspiration that must be embraced as a matter of true belief” as he said himself (page 310 of his book by the same title as the film I believe).

By totally changing history with his opinions, he sells books and gets a documentary made of his theories and then can revel in his own importance and interpretation of anything found, or not yet found in Biblical archeology. His view are highly contested by the way. The Dead Sea Scrolls which contained much of the maticulously reproduced Old Testament books are about 2000 years older than your professor’s 2001 book. Hum. Which might we consider closer to the original time period and thus a more credible source of information?

People even deny the Jewish Holocost which happened less than a 100 years ago and has massive evidence! How much more easily can a highly ambitious professor choose to totally deny his country’s own history that took place several thousand years ago? The Jews especially were extremely good at keeping records. Places are where they say they were and people they say were there were real and it’s been proven time and time again. Those not yet proven will be proven in time. I could research King David for you, but if you think that Moses was a theif, the Israelites were rapists and murderers and a band of lepers leaving Egypt, and King David and King Solomon were not any better, and even God Himself was once also known as Baal and Moloch, you’re hardly worth the effort.

Nonetheless, for other’s sakes, I responded to your rediculous post.

Here’s just one link to extra-Biblical evidence of King David.

http://www.thischristianjourney.com/ThisChristianJourney/GeneralPages/Historical_king_david.htm

and here’s a wikipedia link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David#Historicity_of_David

I do have have one question for you, Reb. If the extra-Biblical evididence for King David has recently been found, and it’s basically just the mention of his name and house, then where is your evidence that King David “was just as bad” as the raping, robbing, murdering Israelites unless you’re also basing your very biased opinion from the very same Bible that I read too?

In conclusion:

If the facts are slowly supporting the evidence of King David and other Biblical stories piece by piece, then why not consider the possibility that the rest of the historical facts at least are also reliable awaiting archeological verification?

Charles B:

You make good points. Don’t let peole like Reb get your goat. Lack of “evidence” written in “stone” is the norm, not the exception for all leaders of antiquity. The fact that anything at all remains from the Exodus is remarkable. King David, even more so, as those that tried to destroy the Israelites (or any former civilization) also destroyed records and especially things like monuments. Only unoticed or hidden things remained undestroyed. Little wonder they are difficult to find 2500 or even 3000 years later. There will always be new speculations of the past that will come and go with new discoveries, or else be more firmly established.

Yahweh
New World Encyclopedia
Relationship to Other Deities

In the “Song of Moses,” the great prophet asks:
“Who among the gods is like you, O Lord? Who is like you—majestic in holiness, awesome in glory, working wonders?” (Exod. 15:11)
A great deal of discussion has been devoted to the relationship of Yahweh to the other deities of the region. The Hebrews used many names to worship their God, such as El Shaddai, El Elyon, Elohim, etc. Outside the Bible, El is known as the chief deity of the Canaanite religion. He was the father of the Canaanite god Baal and the husband of the mother goddess Ashera. Interestingly, the word “Baal” also means “lord” or “master.” An indication that Baal and Yahweh were sometimes identified is evidenced in the words of the prophet Hosea, who says:
“In that day,” declares the Lord, [YHWH] “you will call me ‘my husband’; you will no longer call me ‘my master [baal].’” (Hosea 2:16)
In fact, archaeologists and language experts indicate that it is difficult to distinguish Israelite and Canaanite culture until the early Early Iron Age, around the time of King David. We can imagine a situation in which some of the proto-Israelites worshiped a variety of gods, or worshiped God in a variety of forms using many names. Thus, Jeru-baal (Gideon)—was named for both Yahweh and Baal; while the Judge Shamgar ben Anath was named after the war goddess Anat. Solomon, anointed by the Yahwist prophet Samuel as Israel’s first king, nevertheless named his sons Ish-baal and Meri-baal. Many modern scholars believe that eventually, some of the characteristics of Yahweh, El, and Baal merged into Yahweh/Elohim. Baal, on the other hand, was denigrated and excluded, just as the bronze serpent icon associated with Moses (Num. 21: 9) was eventually destroyed as an idol (2 Kings 18:4). So too was the goddess Ashera disowned, while the chief deities of other ethnic groups were treated as having nothing in common with Yahweh.
The issue is complicated by the question of whether the Israelites were truly one distinct people descended from Abraham who migrated en masse from Egypt to Canaan, rather than a confederation of previously unrelated people who came to accept a common national identity, religious mythology, and origin story. In any case, there is much evidence that the Yahweh-only ideology did not come to the fore among the Israelites until well into the period of Kings, and it was not until after the Babylonian exile that monotheism took firm root among the Jews.
Yahweh himself was sometimes worshiped in a way that later generations would consider idolatrous. For example, presence of golden cherubim and cast bronze bull statues at the Temple of Jerusalem leads many scholars to question whether the Second Commandment against graven images could have been in effect at this time, rather than being the creation of a later age written back into history by the biblical authors. Describing an earlier period, Judges 17-18 tells the story of a wealthy Ephraimite woman who consecrates 1,100 pieces of silver to Yahweh to be cast into an image and put into the family shrine along with other idols. Her son then hires a Levite who serves as priest at the family’s altar, successfully inquiring there of Yahweh on behalf of passing travelers from the tribe of Dan. The Danites later steal the idols and take them along with the priest to settle in the north. A grandson of Moses named Jonathan becomes their chief priest.

The tale serves as a precursor the later story of the northern king Jeroboam I erecting idolatrous bull-calf altars at Dan and Bethel in competition with the Temple of Jerusalem. English translations portray Jeroboam as saying “Here are your gods, O Israel” at the unveiling. The Hebrew, however, is “here is elohim,” the same word normally translated at “God.” Bull calves were associated with the worship of El, and bulls were routinely offered to Yahweh on horned altars. Here we see the process by which certain aspects of El worship—such as horned altars and the sacrifice of cattle—were accepted into the worship of Yahweh, while others—such as the veneration of the bull-calf icon and the recognition of Baal as one of El’s sons—were disowned.
William Dever discusses another intriguing question in his book Did God Have a Wife? He presents archaeological evidence suggesting that the goddess Ashera was seen as Yahweh’s consort in certain times and places. An echo of language associated with Ashera worship may be found in Genesis 49:25, which sates: “The Almighty (Shaddai)… blesses you with blessings… of the breast and womb.” The Bible is clear that the Queen of Heaven was worshiped by families who also honored Yahweh in Jeremiah’s day (Jer. 7:17–18). Dever suggests that Ashera worship remained widespread among the common folk, while the elites, centering on the male priesthood, fought to exclude any feminine portrayals of God. Eventually, many of the characteristics of Ashera were included in the rabbinic concept of the Shekhina.
The Bible seems to indicate that even though the Israelites were forbidden to worship other deities, Yahweh was not considered as the only god who actually existed. The prophet Micah declared: “All the nations may walk in the name of their gods; we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever” (Mic. 4:5). Yahweh is often referred to in the Bible as “the god of the hebrews” (there being no capitalization in the Hebrew text), thus portrayed as one of several tribal deities rather than as the only God in existence.
Psalm 82, on the other hand, seems to mark a transition point, in which God will no longer accept coexistence with other deities:
God [elohim] standeth in the congregation of God [or the gods: "elohim"]; He judgeth among the gods [elohim]…. They know not, neither do they understand; They walk to and fro in darkness: All the foundations of the earth are shaken. I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High. Nevertheless ye shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes. (Ps. 82:1-7)
The portrait of God acting as judge in the assembly of the gods has obvious parallels in other religious traditions: El is the chief of the divine assembly in Canaanite religion, just as Zeus is the head of the court at Olympus. Here, however, God has pronounced a sentence of capital punishment on the other gods..
…………………………………………………………………………………………….
BTW. The OT clearly states that the god of Abraham was El Elyon, the father of the pantheon of gods. “Thomas Paine was right again when he said “Serving a mean god makes a mean man.”

Hi Charles B – I have stumbled upon this site and noticed your name and the content and nature of your writing and I am thinking I wouldn’t be surprised if you are the same guy who I’m sure was called Charles that blogged on a site that’s subject was 11:11. I was curious to find out what this silly nonsense with 11:11 was all about and when I read the blog I was so disgusted at the behaviour of many bloggers and if it weren’t for you I wouldn’t have continued scrolling, but your blogs were great and kept my interest. I tried to make a comment in support of you and give those hypocrites a piece of my mind but I it wouldn’t post. I attempted several times!

It’s great to come across your blogs again, they are so full of truth and information I relish reading.

:-)

Yahweh was not only one of the sons of god in the pantheon of gods, he was also a petty tribal god and the bible proves it.

When the so-called Most High gave to his sons according to those foolish enough to follow them, yahweh came out with the fewest people and no land. That is why they killed and stole everything they got their nasty hands on. He also declares he is a man of war! What a nasty spirit and the christians are carrying on the spirit of war and genocide to this day.

32:8 When the Most High(El Elyon) divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
32:9 For the LORD’s portion is his people; Jacob(12 tribes) is the lot(extent) of his inheritance.

This is nothing more than the inverted twisted epic found in the Sumer scrolls that predate the hebrews by hundreds, if not a thousand years.

Johanna:

Hi, actually, it wasn’t me that blogged on the 911 sight! Ironic that there are two of us out there, but I guess so. I do post prayers on a Christian website and I think I’ll gradually sway back that way again. It’s a whole different world encouraging people who are “seeking” rather than challenging many who are not.

I will tell you the story of my name “Charles.” When I was born, my mother prayed, and ask the Lord, “What shall we call him?” and she heard specifically: “Charles Matthew” which means a man who is a gift from God. My dad didn’t like it, and called me something else for my middle name. Later when I was 33 in my darkest times, when I felt the lowest of my life, I prayed and asked the Lord, “Father, am I still a ‘Charles Matthew’? Am I still a man who is a gift from God?” Immediately I felt Him say, “Yes! You always have been my “Charles Matthew!”

I try not to give out my full name too much over the internet, but that is my true story and so from my youngest days I’ve loved God with all my heart and soul and mind, but only wish I had been a better man in my younger days.

Charles B.

Reb: As a refute the “EL” names are titles, like “God my healer”. Yes, I knew Baal meant Lord, and similarity of language is not the same as the same deity. Allay and Yawah (I am) are both called “God” in modern times; but they are NOT the same entity. Some like, 1400 Years, who is a Muslim would say they are, but I certainly know they are not. If you use his writings as a source, you can add “Allah” onto your list of “gods” you’re trying to make the One true God out to be.

God punished David very strongly for several sins (the sin with Bathsheba and the sin of “numbering his fighting men”). Homosexuality was punishable by death at that time. Had he been having sex with Johnathon, Saul’s son, God Himself would have condemned the act and we would know bout it in the Bible as it pulls no punches when God’s chastizement is carried out for sin. They were best of friends but not *** lovers.

You quote:

“Thomas Paine was right again when he said “Serving a mean god makes a mean man.” King David was a not a mean man for sure; human, yes, but not mean.

Reb, be sure to greet Mr. Paine when you meet him next as I’m quite sure you’re headed in that direction sooner or later. Besides, Thomas Paine was an atheist, and he was sour and mean to the bone. Which god was he serving? Surely not the God of Mother Teresa, Billy Grayhem, and many others who have proven themselves to live-long lovers of mankind in the self-sacrificing image of the Love God Himself, and His Son, Jesus Christ.

Who are YOU to judge anyone? That is the hateful tactic of all you fanatics to slobber at the mouth just thinking about a burning hell for everyone who rejects your awful god. I wouldn’t serve a child raping deity for all the gold in the world and it takes someone with a mental problem to follow such teachings.

Let us begin with Martin Luther. This is found on
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/luther.htm
I suggest you get copies of Luthers works and see what fanaticism does to the mind. People like him fill the insane wards, as should be the case.

Luther:
The Deranged Theologian
compiled by Don Morgan

Martin Luther, German leader of the Protestant Revolution, founder of Lutheranism, Protestant theologian, was behind much of Protestant theology. An examination of some of his quotes makes it quite obvious that we are not looking at a rational man. Modern Protestants would do well to learn something about the heritage of their present theology.

God does not work salvation for fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin vigorously…. Do not for a moment imagine that this life is the abiding place of justice; sin must be committed.

Sin cannot tear you away from him [Christ], even though you commit adultery a hundred times a day and commit as many murders.

A large number of deaf, crippled and blind people are afflicted solely through the malice of the demon. And one must in no wise doubt that plagues, fevers and every sort of evil come from him.

An earthly kingdom cannot exist without inequality of persons. Some must be free, some serfs, some rulers, some subjects.

As for the demented, I hold it certain that all beings deprived of reason are thus afflicted only by the Devil.

As to the common people, … one has to be hard with them and see that they do their work and that under the threat of the sword and the law they comply with the observance of piety, just as you chain up wild beasts.

At Poltersberg, there is a lake similarly cursed. If you throw a stone into it, a dreadful storm immediately arises, and the whole neighboring district quakes to its centre. ‘Tis the devils kept prisoner there.

At Sussen, the Devil carried off, last Good Friday, three grooms who had devoted themselves to him.

Demons live in many lands, but particularly in Prussia.

How often have not the demons called ‘Nix,’ drawn women and girls into the water, and there had commerce with them, with fearful consequences.

I almost feel like throwing Jimmy into the stove, as the priest in Kulenberg did.

I feel much freer now that I am certain the pope is the Antichrist.

I maintain that some Jew wrote it [the Book of James] who probably heard about Christian people but never encountered any.

I myself saw and touched at Dessay, a child of this sort, which had no human parents, but had proceeded from the Devil. He was twelve years old, and, in outward form, exactly resembled ordinary children.

I should have no compassion on these witches; I should burn them all.

******, the lame, the blind, the dumb, are men in whom the devils have established themselves: and all the physicians who heal these infirmities, as though they proceeded from natural causes, are ignorant blockheads….

In many countries there are particular places to which devils more especially resort. In Prussia there is an infinite number of evil spirits.

In Switzerland, on a high mountain, not far from Lucerne, there is a lake they call Pilate’s Pond, which the Devil has fixed upon as one of the chief residences of his evil spirits….

Many demons are in woods, in waters, in wildernesses, and in dark poolly places ready to hurt…people.

Many sweat to reconcile St Paul and St James, but in vain. ‘Faith justifies’ and ‘faith does not justify’ contradict each other flatly. If any one can harmonize them I will give him my doctor’s hood and let him call me a fool.

No gown worse becomes a than the desire to be wise.

Our bodies are always exposed to Satan. The maladies I suffer are not natural, but Devil’s spells.

Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has: it never comes to the aid of spritual things, but–more frequently than not –struggles against the Divine Word….

Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and … know nothing but the word of God.

Snakes and monkeys are subjected to the demon more than other animals. Satan lives in them and possesses them. He uses them to deceive men and to injure them.

Some [demons] are also in the thick black clouds, which cause hail, lightning and thunder, and poison the air, the pastures and grounds.

The best way to get rid of the Devil, if you cannot kill it with the words of Holy Scripture, is to rail at and mock him. Music, too, is very good; music is hateful to him, and drives him far away.

The damned ***** Reason….

The Devil can so completely assume the human form, when he wants to deceive us, that we may well lie with what seems to be a woman, of real flesh and blood, and yet all the while ’tis only the Devil in the shape of a woman. ‘Tis the same with women, who may think that a man is in bed with them, yet ’tis only the Devil; and…the result of this connection is oftentimes an imp of darkness, half mortal, half devil….

The Devil…clutched hold of the miserable young man…and flew off with him through the ceiling, since which time nothing has been heard of [him].

The Devil fears the word of God, He can’t bite it; it breaks his teeth.

The Devil, it is true, is not exactly a doctor who has taken degrees, but he is very learned, very expert for all that. He has not been carrying on his business during thousands of years for nothing….

The Devil, too, sometimes steals human children; it is not infrequent for him to carry away infants within the first six weeks after birth, and to substitute in their place imps….

The fact that [the biblical book] Hebrews is not an epistle of St Paul, or of any other apostle, is proved by what it says in chapter two….

The winds are nothing else but good or bad spirits. Hark! how the Devil is puffing and blowing….

There is no rustic so rude but that, if he dreams or fancies anything, it must be the whisper of the Holy Ghost, and he himself a prophet.

This fool [Copernicus] wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth.

To be a Christian, you must pluck out the eye of reason.

…two devils rose from the water, and flew off through the air, crying, ‘Oh, oh, oh!’ and turning one over another, in sportive mockery….

We are at fault for not slaying them [the Jews].

We know, on the authority of Moses, that longer than six thousand years the world did not exist.

We may well lie with what seems to be a woman of flesh and blood, and yet all the time it is only a devil in the shape of a woman.

We need not invite the Devil to our table; he is too ready to come without being asked. The air all about us is filled with demons….

We should throw the Epistle of James out of this school [the University of Wittenberg]….

What shall we do with…the Jews?…I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings…are to be taken from them.

What shall we do with…the Jews?…I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews.

What shall we do with…the Jews? I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb.

What shall we do with…the Jews?…set fire to their synagogues or schools and bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them.

What shall we do with…the Jews?…their homes also should be razed and destroyed.

When I was a child there were many witches, and they bewitched both cattle and men, especially children.

Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his reason.

Women … have but small and narrow chests, and broad hips, to the end that they should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and bear and bring up children.

So tenaciously should we cling to the world revealed by the Gospel, that were I to see all the Angels of Heaven coming down to me to tell me something different, not only would I not be tempted to doubt a single syllable, but I would shut my eyes and stop my ears, for they would not deserve to be either seen or heard.

Christians support demonic zionism thereby becoming mass murderers of innocent people, including women, children and babies. God never gave the zionists **** much less the land that rightfully belongs to the Palestinians. The goal of these murdering vile devils is total world control and YOU and YOUR FAMILY are next but you are too ****** to see what is going on and you support these maniacs. They are the jews who are of the synagogue of satan, the Khazars, but ****** support them because their book tells you to. They tell you in their dirty little blueprint what is really going on but you just love jayzuz/lucifer so you follow along like the deaf dumb fools you are.

There are over 800 detention camps all over this country built by Cheney’s rotten Haliburton Corp. on a no bid contract. The government paid the 385 million of your tax dollars to built your tombs and torture centers. FEMA has been stock piling plastic grave liners complete with lids in locations all over the US. I live about 30 miles from one of these stockpiles that began appearing a few short years ago. It now has approx. 500,000 and there are others that reportedly have millions. Why is your government trying so hard to force everyone to take vaccinations that have not been tested and we do not want. If you fools don’t wake up the very people you look to as leaders are going to kill you, rape your children and steal all you have. The Freedom of Information Act released proof the government has been testing bio-weapons against the public and military without consent or knowledge since the 40′s but since most people are inflicted with a morbid case of utter stupidity they don’t have a clue what is soon to come. The precious ‘clergy’ is being paid, as usual, by the government to work with FEMA under the title of ‘Clergy Response Teams’. They have taken their dirty thirty pieces of silver to talk their dumb sheeple to going along with whatever the government says, to their own destruction. The bible is a filthy blueprint for world control and one religion domination. Remember, in Revelation when Lucifer/jesus brings in the new world, it is ruled over by those he appoints and they will rule with rods of iron. It is coming and you had better wake the hell up and take off your gospel glasses of pious deceit and get ready to fight for your lives and the lives of your family. On the other hand you can sit with your fingers up your butts and wait for lucifer to rapture you to your new home….behind barbed wire.

Charles, I’m not sure you would want to include Martin Luther in that list. He didn’t love Jews or Muslims very much at all. If you need proof, read his treatise, “On the Jews and Their Lies.” On the other hand, Martin Luther King, Jr. loved mankind AND was a Chrisian, so he’s a much better fit! =)

It’s really much harder than you think to find people who actually are life-long lovers of mankind.

Trivial point, I know, but I was bored.

Tim, I don’t know who you think you are to tell me what to do or say. Charles did not bother to research Paine and just because I quoted the man Charles took it upon himself to cast me in the same hell he hopes Paine is in. Who owes whom and apology??? I wouldn’t wish a place called hell on my worst enemy, only a demon would say such a thing and the bible Charles loves to quote forbids one human from judging another.

Whether intentional or not, most christians do lie. Most probably that comes from their blind faith endoctrination from youth but a lie is still a lie. The Apostate Paul clearly says it is acceptable to lie to advance the kingdom!!! What kind of god needs his followers to lie for him? If satan is the god of this world, the bible is his book and he is the father of lies. Common sense would tell any thinking person that if god requires lies then he is the god of this world. His followers portray him perfectly. David Barton the so-called christian author is a perfect example of lying and forgery, all in the name of his god. He wrote a book that included never seen before quotes of our founding fathers that made them look like zealot fanatical christians. When the internet grew and more and more subjects started appearing, his quotes began to pop up and the ignorant christians never bothered to question where he obtained them. He was eventually challenged by honest atheists and deists to produce his sources or face charges of forgery as many of us have read every published work of all the founding fathers. He backed down and lied through his teeth and only would admit those quotes were ‘spurious’ knowing damn well he created them. He was forced to edit them from his work and post a redaction on his site, which he put in an area few would see. That is the length such ‘leaders’ will go to lie and also make a buck. ****** still follow this crook. Forging quotes and putting the names of our founding fathers to them is a crime and he should have been convicted of a felony.

Perhaps you need to go back and read the hateful comments I have received and then go mind your own business.

If you can say pretty much what you please on an open forum, so can I. As far as Charles is concerned, I live in the south in the midst of ignorant pious nutjobs who will do just about anything to further the cause of their beliefs. He is cut from the same cloth and pattern. They only parrot what they hear some huckster spout from behind a pulpit. I have seen some of the meanest people imaginable claiming to be children of god and HELL is their favorite topic. I guess they are children of god once you realize which god they are referring to. Any deity who would create such a dispicable place as a burning eternal hell can go burn in it himself. Free will is another lie of these coneheads. I could tell my sons they have free will to love me or not, but if they don’t I will set fire to them. What kind of parent would that make me and yet these goofballs praise this monster because he gave us free will. What evil did it take for any mind to even come up with such a concept? Only the most twisted and demented sort could conceive of anything so grotesque and abominable. The bible gods themselves are total abominations to the entire world and anyone who follows them are f-ing imbeciles.

How many people do you suppose know the true history of this nation or even care? Until we all face some cold hard facts and stop trying to live in some make believe fantasy world things will continue on as is and wars will never end. Our leaders, both political and religious know how to stir up the patriot hearts against the evil pagans. Our young men go and die for lies that only make a small group of evil greedy ******** richer. My anger is directed at fools who could see but steadfastly refuse. They ARE sissy men who gave up the right to think and reason when they decided to accept primative dogmas and superstition. When this nation falls, and it is headed in that direction, the religious freaks can thank themselves in great part for that fall. They care not for this planet and are taught to hate the things of the world. They don’t give a damn about others who do not share their views since they are taught that all others are of the ‘devil’. They think that the next great war will bring jayzuz flying through the air and they don’t have one clue what is truly about to take place. Those of us who never bought into all this insanity of fighting for god never wanted any part of their nasty demonic wars and the killing of innocent people, however, we are all stuck with what these mindless loonies have brought about. America has now become the new Evil Empire and people of the world do not hate us for our freedoms, they hate us for our killing and stealing. Our military now occupies over 127 countries where we never had any business being in the first place. We were lied to about Iraq and still we go about daily killing the innocent men, women and children while our ‘buddies’ the Israelies do the same to the Palestinians. The bible is all about slaughter and no one does it better than the zionist and the christians. I suggest these morons should read Mark Twains War Prayer and then go look into a mirror. This nation fights for oil and drugs while the sheeple pretend that is not true.

Tim, you are right and I should know by now you can’t give the truth to those who refuse to see or hear it. You can take the bible and show the atrocities in black and white and they will make excuses or use the old stand by that it is being taken out of context. That is the excuse when it can’t be explained for anything other than what it really says. I will never understand anyone wanting to worship a devil. The child abuse that is rampant in the world is another direct result of the bible. Yahwehs way of dealing with disrepectful kids was to take them out of the city and have the parents along with the other people stone them to death! Just try to imagine that if you can. He has a group torn to shreds by a she bear for dising a bald prophet. What a jerk.

(May 9, 2006
Nearly 800,000 children under the age of 18 are reported missing each year in the United States, according to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC).)

This should scare the hell out of anyone but it is hardly mentioned and not mentioned at all within religious circles. Satanic child sacrifice rituals are featured in the OT as demanded by yahweh and it still goes on today. Many of these missing children were used in such rituals after being raped and sodomized. It is mind bobbling to read how many so-called religious clergy, sunday school teachers, deacons etc. are involved in these disgusting rituals. All you have to do is do a google search on religious child sacrifice and you will never run out of material. One detective in NY wrote that one of the people they arrested in one these cults stated that the self life of a child used for sex rituals was only 2 years!!! They think of children as commodities and not human.

Moses would tell his butchers to kill all the males, both adult and children but to keep all the virgin women and little girls for themselves. I won’t go into how they determined who was a virgin but use your imagination. The Tract of Sanhedrin in the Talmud discusses how it is acceptable to have sex with a little girl who is 3 years old plus one day and little boys who are 7. It goes into great gory detail on sex with children so why are we surprised that so many rabbis and christian clergy practice such monstrous things? Their god was a pervert too. Human sacrifice eliminated thousands of innocent children to the vampire yahweh.

Exodus 22:29-30:?
“You shall not delay to offer from the fullness of your harvest and from the outflow of your presses. The first-born of your sons you shall give to me. ?30? You shall do likewise with your oxen and with your sheep: seven days it shall be with its dam; on the eighth day you shall give it to me.”

God admitted he did this in Ezekiel 20:25-26 where he purportedly said:

?25? “Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; ?26? and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am the Lord.”

You would think a just god could find another way to make his point other than having innocent children burnt to death.

The context of the Exodus passage concerns offerings and sacrifices, and it says God requires that first born sons are to be literally sacrificed to him. Hence, unlike other passages where there is the possibility of redemption with a substitute sacrifice ( Exodus 13:13; 34:10-20), none is specifically stated here. The concept of “redemption” is an interesting one that goes hand in hand with child sacrifice, because animals were substituted for the firstborn. Yet that says nothing against the idea that a better sacrifice was the firstborn child himself, and many people in the Old Testament did just that. Circumcision was probably a substitutionary child sacrifice (Exodus 4:24).

Child sacrifice should be understood within the whole concept of human sacrifice as a whole, which pleased God (Leviticus 27:28). Human sacrifice was probably only considered evil when it was done in the name of a foreign god, and doing so was punishable by death precisely because it was offered to another deity (Leviticus 20:2; 18:21 Deuteronomy 12:31 18:10; II Kings 17:17 23:10; II Chronicles 28:3 33:4-10; Ps 106:38; Isaiah 57:5,6; Jeremiah 7:31 32:35 Ezekiel 16:20,21 20:26,31 23:37,39 Acts 7:43).

Child sacrifice was something that several Biblical people either did, or assisted others in doing so. Abraham was not morally repulsed by the command itself (Genesis 22). Then there is Jepthah who probably sacrificed his daughter because of a ****** vow and yahweh “accepted the offer”(Judges 11); David (II Sam. 21:7-9); Solomon and his wives (I Kings 3:16); Ahab (I Kings 16:33-34); Ahaz (II Kings 16:2-3); Hoshea (II Kings 17:7); and Manasseh (II Kings 21:6, II Chronicles 33:6). It was a problem for King Josiah ( II King 23:10), for Jeremiah (Jeremiah 7:30-31; 19:3-5; 32:35), and Ezekiel (Ezekiel 16:20-21; 20:25-26, 30-31). The prophet Micah wonders if he should sacrifice his oldest son “as a sin offering” (6:6-8). Child sacrifice to foreign gods was so prevalent that it’s named as one of the major reasons why God sent the Babylonians to conquer Israel and forcibly take many of them as captives (II Kings 17:16-18).

We even read where the King of Moab sacrificed his son which caused the Israelites to retreat in defeat. Moab’s sacrifice created a great “wrath,” (ketzef), which was an external divine force to the warriors in the story, indicating that his sacrifice caused some divinity to act on behalf of Moab. (II Kings. 3:26-27).

In the New Testament God the Father sacrifices his only son (Jesus) as the central redemptive act of Christianity, and God still seeks to fulfill his lust for human sacrifice by burning humans forever in the lake of fire.

If all that is not bad enough, the christians are told they need to practice mock vampirism and mock cannibalism by eating and drinking flesh and blood. This is a satanic ritual.

There is one verse that says yahweh got so angry with his people because they were not serving him in joy and fullness of heart so he caused famine to come so they were forced to cook and eat their own kids! Who in their right f-ing mind could serve this maniac in joy and fullness of heart? Are they all totally mad or do they never read the book? Yahweh loved the sweet savor of burning flesh in his big snotty god nostrils.

If he told me to cut the throat of my child and burn him alive to prove my loyalty to him, I would tell him to kiss my *** and go F himself.

wow!

The preceding comments is what I consider food for thought!

Some here is just a dog who could not find the cat to bark at in the right tree….

Anyway, it is common nowadays for an unbelievers to tell people to believe in God… but my doubts are on the statements of the revised New Testament. They are for those who made them and not for the information for those who doesn’t know Jesus. in simple terms, they are for “Graft and Corruption” as the original authors of the Gospel could not take it anymore that they have to let it go to those translators under the guidance and influence of Emperor Constantine… and who they are? Christians of course… the very people who are responsible in having Jesus crucified simply because of vengeance of their rebellion that they are almost annihilated by Romans under the name of their Messiah, but not necessarily Jesus, as is as practiced and preached by hard core Davidians even today.

So, toady. leadership is all that matters, especially when it comes to money… Religion without money is just like Christians of Jesus…. which I like the most because I deserved to have what I deserve when it comes to money.

I knew you would spew the normal canned response that you got from some desperate apologetic site. Human sacrifice is human sacrifice and all throughout history nations and religions have thrown the first born into the sea to calm the storms or into volcanoes to quiet the rumblings of the cruel and angry gods. Your bible god is NO different and the people despised him. How many times did yahweh whine to moses and ask how long with this people despise me? Who in their right mind wouldn’t despise that damn demon? They did sacrifice their firstborn and you refuse to admit you serve a satanic god. It is well known that satanist sacrifice humans and drink blood so that pretty much alerts the thinking people who the bible god truly is.

The KJV is the most corrupt of all bibles. Read the history of how homosexual King James hated the Geneva bible because it did not give kings the divine right over mankind and the RCC wanted the same status. The Geneva bible pinpointed the catholic church as the anti-christ in Revelation. The Geneva bible was the bible the first settlers brought to this country. They in turn hated the KJV and the king had forbade the owning, teaching or reading of any other bible but his piece of ****.

There were many many versions of the bible even before the Geneva bible and they are all very different and the books contained within them are varied to a wide scale. The content always depended on the political atmosphere of location and who was in charge and what they needed the people to believe. You can read most any version online but that takes time and effort and christians now days only know what their con artist preachers tell them to believe. I wouldn’t have a KJV in my house. It is also reported that KJ loved to hunt and kill animals just for fun and he would have sex with the dead animal and roll around in the blood. How do you people stay so ignorant? You don’t know the history of your bible or how many there have been. You don’t realize the KJV only came about due to greed and hunger for power and control over people by a demented pervert.

Debating with you on anything biblical is a waste of time as you have little to no knowledge whatsoever about it. Run along and read the Sinai bible, the Companion bible, the Bishops bible, the Geneva bible, the Tynedale bible, the Wycliff bible, the Blue Letter bible and try to get the same story from them all. Just changing one word in a paragraph can change the entire meaning of the text completely. There is a version in the hundreds that have been edited to say just about anything one could want to say. That is why there are now hundreds and hundreds of versions. Whatever a person would like god to say, just find the bible that agrees with you. There is even a gender neutral version so not to offend women. If the true Creator ever inspired anything to be written I have the feeling it was “Be good to each other and take care of the world I made for you”. What the hell else could be needed? You are dumb as a wet sack of doorknobs.

REB: You do have a lot of knowledge about the Bible (most of it very twisted). Yes, you are correct King James was a terrible man; most likely never even read much of the translation upon whom it is named after. At one point in time I could read a great deal of Greek and a bit of the Hebrew texts which could do away with the “translation” problems a bit, as long as you know your stuff.

You’ve inspired me to learn more and go deeper into God’s word so that the very few like yourself who seem to be an athority on everything Biblical while believing none of it will have a refute from someone who actually does love God and hold His Word with respect.

You forgot to mention how Wycliffe died. Wasn’t he burn at the stake also for daring to translate the Bible at that time too? I think so. Amazing how much people of the past have suffered and even died to bring us the treasure of the Bible which so many of us take for granted now. Thanks for the reminder. It would have been so difficult to live in the days when one couldn’t read the Bible for him or herself. Perhaps that is one reason why they are called the “dark ages”.

Anyway, I have concluded as far as Bible translations go, the one you read faithfully is the one that is the best translation for you. I would tend to preclude the Jefferson Bible however as it’s just a shell, based upon Jefferson’s own bias that anything supernatural was inpossible and added later by others.

Thanks for the history lessons.

Charles B.

Reb: Ok. Well enough said.

AR, religion is a deadly trap and the christian bible is the guideline being used today by the so-called elite to bring about global control and enslavement. It has been used since mankind stopped picking fleas off one another as a form of mind control and enslavement. Since the first recorded writings, greedy deceivers found they could hoodwink the simple by presenting a god that they themselves would be the spokesmen for. If you study the OT the priests were a family bloodline also, keep the riches and secrets of sorcery in the family! When man became territorial along came the priests to invent a god to fight the peoples of other gods. Hell, without these manmade gods how could the leaders and filthy priests convince the morons to kill, fight and steal unless their own personal tribal gods said so? Of course the ****** who followed these cons were greedy also and got to share in the spoils and even were allowed to rape women and children. I guess the chosen of god had a number of child rapers in the midst and they had to be rewarded also. Quite revolting isn’t it? Here is just one example of the OT perverted god and his followers.

Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.”

A loving, fair and just god????? This was written by a total female hating pervert. You will find this sort of **** all through the OT and only a demented fool would read this to a child. Back in the 1800′s it was against the federal laws to mail parts of the OT through the mail because so much of it violated the obscenity laws. HELLO…..

Even the character of jesus plainly said he was sent only to the lost house of Israel and looked down his pointed nose at all non-jews. Apostate Paul is the huckster that instituted gentiles into the fray. Pauls doctrine was easier and just as Luther would later teach that you can’t out sin the grace of god. Ever since men have tried their damnest to do just that. I sometimes think that christians love the devil more than their god. They get to blame their dirty deeds on the influence of an invisible devil as a scapegoat. Hell, in the RCC you can buy ‘indulgences’ if there is a sin you really have your heart set on. Of course the priests are mostly ****** and child rapers so you have the blind leading the blind. If something so wicked as the RCC gives birth to a new branch of the same rotten teachings, common sense should tell anyone the offspring will be just as rotten. Read the teachings of the great protestant leaders Luther and Calvin if you want to read hate and pure insanity. Calvin was a cold blooded killer and Luther was a nutjob that history would be well to forget. I compare the spawn of the RCC to Rosemary’s baby.

Read this exerpt from a work on Piss Paul II. He was a goddamn nazi and should have been executed and the religious world would bow and scrape, kiss his nasty feet and worship him almost as a god. But then, why not? The religious freaks are completely ignorant about the history of the ‘church’ and they worship a god alright, but they worship the god of evil.

(In the early 1940′s, a young Polish salesman, employed by I.G. Farben Chemical Company (manufacturer of cyanide gas) 1 sold cyanide to the Nazis, for use in Auschwitz. He also worked as a chemist manufacturing the cyanide gas that exterminated millions of Jews and other peoples in the very heart of the Auschwitz extermination camp. Fearing for his life after the war, he took refuge in the Catholic church (cult) and was ordained a priest in late 1946. In 1958, he was ordained Poland’s youngest bishop. After the thirty day reign and assassination of his predecessor, he assumed the papacy as Pope John Paul II 2 (the current pope, 1990) and now controls an organization in America, called the Jewish Federation and one of its many branches, the Cult Awareness Network which kidnaps and “deprograms” Christians and other victims. The Pope’s Cult Awareness Network is a continuation of Hitler’s “Ministry of Cults” 3 during World War II, designed to destroy Judaism, Christianity and other religions, other than Catholicism. Hitler and his entire staff, including the S.S. were all Catholics. Their desire – a world for Catholics only.)
http://www.alamoministries.com/content/english/Antichrist/Fugitive_Pope.html

Few know that catholicism is zionism in disguise and most of the popes were of secret jewish heritage. Zioinist jews sacrificed their own people in the nazi death camps to become the poor poster children of the suffering people of god who just wanted their god promised rights. They are wicked thugs and killers. ****** fell for their lies hook, line and sinker. 9/11 was a false flag attack that our government used to sacrifice thousands of innocent unsuspecting people in order to go to war and steal oil and land. Thanks to the Freedom of Information Act we also now know that the Pearl Harbor attack plans were known months in advance since our military had broken the transmission code of the Japanese and knew exactly what the plans were and when. Our government wanted a war and again sacrificed innocent people to their god of greed. 9/11 was another Pearl Harbor. Of course, all Bush had to do was mention ‘god’ and fools everywhere fell in line and couldn’t wait for us to go and kill the evil ones. They should have started here by cleaning up around America’s filthy front door. Theft and murder in the name of a god is as old as dirt and since the majority of this nation claim to be christians and christians don’t give a **** about truth or authentic history, they keep repeating past atroscities over and over and over. It matters not to those cold hearted ******** that precious innocent children and babies die in these needless holy wars. What the hell is holy about murder? If christians gave a damn about human life there would be no legal abortion in this land but as you see, they just sat on their asses every Sunday picking boogers listening to some child f-ing ape **** bi-ped assure them “god would take care of all that one day”. No one can ever tell me that if almost 85% of this population had risen up and said “hell no, we will not allow infanticide here” there is no way in hell abortion would have been made legal.

Charles, I have great news buddy. Since you believe what the bible says and you practice what the WORD says, here is something you must have missed. There is no reason in this world a believer should be sick!

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith will raise him up. James 5:14

Why are you, a believer sick when you could simply do these simple tricks? I have never met one so-called bible believer who believed and practised what they try and push off on others. Not only that but the bible says these are the signs that will follow those who believe, and that includes you Charles. They will heal the sick and raise the dead! How do you people heal the sick when you can’t heal yourselves following your god’s instructions? Christians pack secular doctors offices just like the rest of us and you never hear them say they are going to have an elder lay hands on them, annoint them with oil and pray the prayer of faith and get healed. Jesus said you could do greater works than he did but I bet you would **** your pants if someone with a withered arm seriously asked you to heal them. Then, on the other hand, you have the religiously insane who allow their kids to die before their eyes because they really believe this bible **** and keep praying, annointing and laying on hands while their innocent precious children die agonizing deaths. You faith is such a pious crock. If anyone asked you to please raise a loved one that just died you would have a cardiac arrest yourselve and think that person was loonie. It looks good on paper but even the ‘believers’ don’t really believe it.

The bible also says if a believer ask anything in the name of Jesus it will be done. I have known many sincere misguided people who really believed this stuff. They were fine people who would do good for anyone. I have seen them pray by the hours for dying loved ones. Their earnest prayers went unanswered. Sometimes entire church congregations pray in earnest for sick and dying members but they die anyway. The excuses you numbskulls come up with is almost infuriating. It is heartbreaking to see good people lose a small child to cancer and hear them pray and pray to a god who never answers. To add insult to injury some religious blowhole will always say something ****** like “it was gods will” or “god needed your child to come to heaven in order to show someone else the way”. ********. Those are the only excuses christian clergy could come up with to keep the family in the fold and putting money in the plate. That is as bad as our government sending young men to fight their illegal wars and die doing so, then they present a cheap *** medal to the parents to honor the fallen to keep the parents from digging to deep for the truth. Who was it that said “what fools these mortals be”?

Tim, according to christians god answers prayer in this manner. Yes, no or maybe later. When it is yes it will happen but maybe much later at the right time. Don’t give up, god works in his own time.

If the answer is no, how can you tell? It might be a yes that you will have to wait years for.

If the answer is maybe later, well hell, that is no better than yes or no. They figured out a cunning way to curb ‘doubting’ among the sheep because if you begin to question you will be responsible for losing your blessing or even worse, you might have hidden sin in your life. It is a win win situation for the deceivers and con job for the believers. Either way you lose because it is your fault.

Even though the bible clearly says that anything a believer ask in the name of jesus, if they believe they will receive, there seems to be a hidden clause in small print that only the few have seen. lol You would have better luck with a child’s eight ball toy.

Look how many children are snatched everyday in this nation who most likely will be raped and killed. I am certain that many of those precious little ones died with a prayer to jesus on their lips. Where is the answer to that one? Also, what kind of god could sit and watch something like that happen to sweet innocent helpless children?

Children in christian homes are taught that jesus loves them and has angels that watch over them. Talk about giving a child a false sense of security! Those kind of ***** parents should be horse whipped. Sometimes do a google search for Betrayal of Trust, Clergy Sexual Abuse and see the perverts that are really ‘watching’ the kids. It will turn your stomach.

Funny, when men declares their rule of engagement in war and won, they were praised… and they are well recorded. And when they lose, it is the will of God… because people are so wicked and sinful. But in fact, they win or they lose… the people are still the same.

True, God doesn’t care if you’ll live or die. It is your fellow men who will be caring for you, either you’ll live or die, but just the same… The Doctor will have the glory if you’ll live but if you’ll die, it is as usual, the will of God.

I am not dreaming of a world that a lion will grass in the future…

I have a post from friends about the “Bible Killings”… they are brutal… but who could judge but those who benefited from it and those who was annihilated by it. And as usual, Glory be thy father’s name if successful and it is the will of God to be so, if failed.

Anyway, they are now, having ‘their own way’ upon Christianity and Jesus in the New Testament… Same old way…Jews are the Evil forces who caught and imprisoned Jesus for blasphemy and Christians are the faithful that most of them was annihilated in their rebellion and had to sacrificed Jesus for the forgiveness of their sin. So, what sin are we talking about? Of course, the forgiveness of the Roman Empire of their failed revolutions! Those ****** fools, died in the name of ‘their Messiah’! Ah, the power of deceit on “Graft and Corruptions”! When the real Messiah comes forth… His Words and Deeds was indeed forgotten.

The Roman Empire… What about them? They are the guiding influence of the Government with the introduced Trinity. A son who is also a father in a Government’s office function. A democratic way of living the life through the language, Latin.

Tim, I have studied Christian Science and just like Scientology, it is an experiment in one of the many CIA mind control projects (that was discontinued years ago….NOT). Most of the ‘organized’ religions are.

Solomon, all of this goes way back to the ancient mystery schools. Who would have ever thought that the Essenes who produced the dead sea scrolls would have a strange attachment to Pharaoh Akhenaten?! It is amazing how often the word ‘mysteries’ is used in the bible yet few make that connection. That is why jesus taught the common people in parables so they couldn’t understand but he took his chosen followers aside and revealed secrets to them. The bible is not what we have been told it is and it was never for the ordinary masses. It is a book written by and for those in the know. The book of The Revelation of Christ is just what it says and reveals him to be Lucifer and it tells us in plain words what is being planned for us. Every generation has believed Revelation was pin pointing them and it was. Since we don’t know true history around the world we fail to realize just what horrors so many have lived to see. I am sure they all thought the end was here. Everyone thought Hitler was the antichrist and for many he was. The same can be said for every tyrantical ruler that has lived. Revelation is a book written in such a way that can convince every generation the end is here. If you go back and read sermons for the past 200 years the theme is always the same and they all see what we see today. The difference being in this generation, is the ability of the ‘elite’ to take it to the point of ‘all or nothing’. This is an evil game for them and we are the pawns.

Reb: You said “Charles, I have great news buddy. Since you believe what the bible says and you practice what the WORD says, here is something you must have missed. There is no reason in this world a believer should be sick!

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith will raise him up. James 5:14

I’m responding because Tim wanted to hear a response, not so much for you, REB.

Tim: This is for you.

First of all, it says when you are sick, to be prayed for, you have misquoted the Bible (as you always do) by saying that we should never be sick. You have to first be sick in order for God to heal you. And I’ve seen plenty of miracles. I’ve have friends where were miraculously healed of heart disease, cancer, and other life-threatening illness and medically proven to be healed. More than a few, many. Why don’t you google some testimonies. I’m sure you will find hundrends if not thousands of them. Why doesn’t God always heal? I don’t know, but I do know that healings are more common in places where there is no other choice, such as in Africa.

Check out: http://www.sidroth.org/site/PageServer for dozens if not hundreds of healing testimonies.

Also, for the dead being resurrected, not just recussitated check out the testimonies on: http://www.freecdtracts.com/heavenandhell.htm

Reb: Back to you. Why do you speak so much about child abductions? Why such a concern for them? It’s right to be concerned for them, and so am I, but it seems like you mention it so often and it has nothing to do with your arguments, nor even this topic. It’s like you’re trying to connect one of the most evil of acts mankind is capable of to God and you’ve not just done so once but like 5 or 6 times even postulating prayers to Jesus on the lips of dying children that were abducted. I find that really quite odd.

Johanna: Just is case you still log on, this is for you as you said you liked my remarks. Many of us have been abused sexually as children or in other ways (myself included). This seems to be a common topic for REB, so I’m addressing it also here. However, whereas I do not hate the world nor the God that “allowed” that abuse, I do see that hate in many others. In fact, God has been my healer and my deliverer. I’d be quite the different person (for the worse) without his touch on my life.

When I was 33, I prayed after God showed me a vision of a person that hurt me when I was a small child (not horrendously, but it was sexual, yes). In the vision, he held his head down and was in prison and I said: “God, I was just a kid; I didn’t deserve that, but if you want me to forgive him, and he wants to be forgiven, then I will.” From that moment onward Satan could no longer use that part of my past against me. I was free.

Here is a link to the testimony of Ian McCormack. I found his story incredible as part of his healing was dependent on his willingness to forgive and not take revenge on others. This is one of the most increble true stories I’ve heard. He’s alive today. Check out his website as well as this testimony for the story of both healing, and a vision of Heaven AND Hell.

http://www.freecdtracts.com/testimony/ian_mccormack.htm

Charles B.

P.S. REB: There’s been plenty of people praying for my family and we’re feeling much better much more quickly than I expected. Thanks for your suggestiong to be prayed for; we’ve already did so, and I believe it really helped! This is the fastest I’ve ever recuperated from any flu which usually takes me out for at leat 7 to 10 days. :-)

Charles, not that it is any of your business but I find it appalling you have such a problem with my great concern for innocent children who are so frequently brutalized. Even you god had no compassion for them and allowed his thugs to rape and slaughter them.

I worked several years in an elementary school and a large part of my job was keeping updated records on students who were in counseling for physical and sexual abuse. I am ashamed to say I never knew that problem existed to the extent it does and the things I heard and read about those children make me so sick and furious it has become my goal to make it known in hope others will become more aware. If what you experienced is true, you of all people should rejoice that there are people like me who actually give a damn. Most people don’t want to even know such ugly things exist and children learn early there are few people they can trust and turn to. That should NOT be the case. I will speak about this issue loud and long until the day I die and if that displeases you then so be it.

Charles, I just read this part and would like to make one more comment to you and this will be my last. I may not be of the same faith as you but I am not a liar. I would never stoop to such a level to try and make a childish point. You sir, are the liar, YOU misquoted me deliberately and what little respect I had for you as being ‘honest’ in your belief is gone!

You wrote: “First of all, it says when you are sick, to be prayed for, you have misquoted the Bible (as you always do) by saying that we should never be sick. You have to first be sick in order for God to heal you.”

I did not quote that line as part of the verses I was plainly dealing with. I was stating my personal view and that is a hell of ways from quoting and you know it. When healing by oil and prayer was taught to the churches they did not know at the time that existed for them until the disciples and Paul told them. If that is the case then if one of them from that point began to feel ill all they would need to do is go and get annointed and prayed for without suffering through sickness. Common sense should tell even a village ***** that much.

This is my statement: “Charles, I have great news buddy. Since you believe what the bible says and you practice what the WORD says, here is something you must have missed. There is no reason in this world a believer should be sick!”

Where did I quote scripture in that paragraph? Where!!!

I then went on and quoted James 5:14 word for word as it appears in the bible. Once again I ask, Why do christians lie? Thank you for proving me correct and Tim, I hope you see why I said that in the first place. It always come down to christians lying to protect their views when they can’t do it otherwise.

Charles, you said “I’ve have friends where were miraculously healed of heart disease, cancer, and other life-threatening illness and medically proven to be healed.”

Do you honestly expect an adult person to believe what you just said? wow. lol.

@ Reb,

“Praise is due to Allah (God) whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so; whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate; and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion, and made firm the shaking earth with rocks.

The foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His ONENESS, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute. Thus, whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and who recognises His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognises parts for Him; and who recognises parts for Him mistakes Him; and who mistakes Him points at Him; and who points at Him admits limitations for Him; and who admits limitations for Him, numbers Him.

Whoever says in what is He, holds that He is contained; and whoever says on what He is held says He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence.”
- Imam Ali (may peace be upon him).

—–

“The foremost in religion (deen) is His knowledge.” The literal meaning of deen is obedience, and its popular sense is ‘code’, whether the literal sense is taken or the popular one; in either case, if the mind is devoid of any conception of Divinity, there would be no question of obedience, nor of following any code; because when there is no aim there is no point in advancing towards it; where there is no object in view there is no sense in making efforts to achieve it. Nevertheless, when the nature and guiding faculty of man bring him in contact with a superior Authority and his taste for obedience and impulse of submission subjugates him before a Deity, he finds himself bound by certain limitations as against abject freedom of activity. These very limitations are deen (religion) whose point of commencement is knowledge of Allah (God) and acknowledgement of His Being.

After pointing out the essentials of Divine knowledge, Imam Ali (pbuh) has described its important constituents and conditions. He has held those stages of such knowledge which people generally regard as the point of highest approach to be insufficient. He says that its first stage is that with the natural sense of search for the unknown and the guidance of conscience or on hearing from the followers of religions an image of the Unseen Being known as Allah (God) is formed in the mind. This image in fact is the forerunner of the obligation to thinking and reflection and to seeking His knowledge. But those who love idleness, or are under pressure of the environment, do not undertake this search despite the creation of such image, and the image fails to get testified. In this case they remain deprived of Divine knowledge, and since their inaccess to the stage of testifying after the formation of the image is by volition, they deserve to be questioned about it. But one who is moved by the power of this image goes further and considers thinking and reflection necessary. In this way one reaches the next stage in the attainment of Divine knowledge, namely to search for the Creator through the diversification of creation and the species of creatures, because every picture is a solid and inflexible guide to the existence of its painter and every effect to the action of its cause. When he casts his glance around himself he does not find a single thing which might have come into existence without the act of a maker so much so that he does not find the sign of a footstep without a walker, nor a construction without a builder. How can he comprehend that this blue sky with the sun and the moon in its expanse and the earth with the exuberance of its grass and flowers could have come into existence without the action of a Creator! Therefore, after observing all that exists in the world and the regulated system of the entire creation no one can help concluding that there is a Creator for this world of diversities because existence cannot come out of non-existence, nor can existence sprout forth from nothingness.

The Holy Qur’an has pointed to this reasoning thus:

“. . . What! about Allah is there any doubt, the Originator of the heavens and the earth ? …”
Al-Quran, 14:10

But this stage would also be insufficient if this testimony in favour of Allah is tarnished by belief in the divinity of some other deity.

The third stage is that His existence should be acknowledged along with belief in His Unity and Oneness. Without this, the testimony to Allah’s existence cannot be complete because if more gods are believed in He would not be One, whereas it is necessary that He should be One. The reason is that in case of more than one god, the question would arise whether one of them created all this creation or all of them together. If one of them created it there should be some differential to distinguish him otherwise he would be accorded preferential position without reason, which is unacceptable to the mind. If all have created it collectively then the position has only two forms; either he cannot perform his functions without the assistance of others or he is above the need for their assistance. The first case means his incapability and being in need of others while the other case means that they are several regular performers of a single act and the fallacy of both has already been shown. If we assume that all the gods performed the act of creation by dividing among themselves, then in this case all the creation will not bear the same relationship towards the creator since each creature will bear relationship only to its own creator whereas every creature should have one and the same relationship to all creators. This is because all the creation should have one and the same relationship to all the creators as all the created in their capacity to accept effect and all the creators in their capacity to produce effect should be similar. In short, there is no way but to acknowledge Him (Allah) as the One God because in believing in numerous creators, there remains no possibility of the existence of any other thing, and destruction proves implicit for the earth, the sky and everything in creation. Allah, the Glorified, has expressed this argument in the following words:

“If there had been in them (the heavens and the earth) any gods except Allah, they would both have certainly been in a state of disorder; therefore, glory be to Allah, the Lord of the dominion, above what they attribute (to Him).”
Al-Quran, 21:22

The fourth stage is that Allah should be regarded free of all defects and deficiencies, and devoid of body, form, illustration, similarity, position of place or time, motion, stillness, incapability and ignorance because there can be no deficiency or defect in the perfect Being nor can anyone be deemed like Him because all these attributes bring down a being from the high position of the Creator to the low position of the created. That is why along with Unity, Allah has held purity from deficiency of equal importance.

“Say: ‘He (Allah) is One (alone). Allah, the needless. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him.”
Al-Quran, 112:1-4

“Vision perceiveth Him not, and He perceiveth (all) vision; He is the Subtle, the All-aware.”
Al-Quran, 6:104

“So coin ye not any similitudes to Allah; verily Allah knoweth (every thing) and ye know not.”
Al-Quran, 16:74

“… Nothing whatsoever (is there) like the like of Him; and He (alone) is the All-hearing and the All-seeing.”
Al-Quran, 42:11

The fifth stage of completing knowledge of Him is that attributes should not be put in Him from outside lest there be duality in His Oneness, and deviating from its proper connotation – Unity – may fall in the labyrinth of one in three and three in one, because His Being is not a combination of essence and form so that attribute may cling to Him like the smell in the flowers or brightness in the stars; rather, He is the fountain head of all attributes and needs no medium for manifestation of His perfect Attributes. If He is named Omniscient it is because the signs of his knowledge are manifest. If He is called Omnipotent it is because every particle points to His Omnipotence and Activity, and if to Him is attributed the power to listen or to see it is because the cohesion of the entire creation and its administration cannot be done without hearing or seeing but the existence of these attributes in Him cannot be held to be in the same way as in the creation, namely, that He should be capable to know only after He acquires knowledge or He should be powerful and strong only after energy runs into His limbs because taking attributes as separate from His Being would connote duality, and where there is duality, unity disappears. That is how Imam Ali (pbuh) has rejected the idea of attributes being addition to His Being, presented Unity in its true significance, and did not allow Unity to be tainted with stains of multiplicity. This does not mean that adjectives cannot at all be attributed to Him, as this would be giving support to those who are groping in the dark abyss of negativism, although every nook and comer in the entire existence brims with His attributes and every particle of creation stands witness that He has knowledge, He is powerful, He hears, He sees. He nurtures under His care and allows growth under His mercy. The intention is that for Him nothing can be suggested to serve as an adjunct to Him, because His self includes attributes and His attributes connote His Self.

@ Reb, let us learn this very theme in the words of Imam Jafar Sadiq (pbuh), comparing it with the belief in Unity adopted by other religions and then appreciate who is the exponent of the true concept of Unity; and which is the one true God,as you ask:

The Imam says:
“Our Allah the Glorified, the Magnificent has ever had knowledge as His Self even though there was nothing to know, sight as His Self even though there was nothing to know, sight as His Self even though there was nothing to behold, hearing as His Self even though there was nothing to hear, and Potence as His Self even though there was nothing to be under His Potence. When He created the things and the object of knowledge came into existence His knowledge became related to the known, hearing related to the heard, sight related to the seen, and potence related to its object.”
- in At-Tawhid (The Unity) by Shaykh as-Saduq, p.139

This is the belief over which the Imams of the Prophet’s (Muhammad’s) family are unanimous, but the majority group has adopted a different course by creating the idea of differentiation between His Self and Attributes.

“Allah knows through (the attribute of) knowledge, is Powerful through activity, speaks through speech, hears through hearing and sees through sight.”
- in Kitab al-Milal wa’n-Nihal, by Ash-Shahristani, p. 42

If we regard attributes distinct from Self in this manner there would be two alternatives; either the attributes must have existed in Him from ever or they must have occurred later. In the first case we have to recognise as many eternal objects as the attributes which all will share with Him in being eternal, but “Allah is above what the people deem Him to have equals.” In the second case in addition to subjecting Him to the alternations it would also mean that before the acquiring of the attributes He was neither scient, nor powerful, nor hearer nor beholder and this runs counter to the basic tenet of Islam.

“… Allah hath decreed trade lawful and hath forbidden interest …”
Al-Quran, 2:275

“And when you have finished the prayer remember Allah standing, and sitting, and reacting, and when ye are secure (from danger) establish prayer …”
Al-(Quran, 4:103

“O’ ye men! eat of what is in the earth lawful and good and follow not the foot-steps of Satan; for verily he is an open enemy unto you.”
Al-Quran, 2:168

“(And) say thou [O Muhammed]: ‘I am only a man like you; it is revealed unto me that your god is but one God, therefore whosoever desires to meet his Lord, let him do good deeds, and associate not any one in the worship of his Lord’.”
Al-Quran, 18:110

“What! enjoin ye upon the people righteousness and ye forget your own selves? Yet ye read the scripture? What, do you not understand?”
Al-Quran, 2:44

@ Reb, hope this helps.

@ Reb, and others, rhetorical as the question in the following link is, I’m curious to know what you think.
N.B. Please be respectful and polite.

“Accuracy of Historical Records in the Quran”
(a five-minute read):

http://www.al-islam.org/authen_of_the_quran/7.htm

@ Reb,

Re “Don’t you sometimes wonder …”

Have you ever read the Quran? (I don’t want to attempt to “convert” you; but since you so passionately write about the subject of deities and history – which seems to show you might be well-read – I just ask out of curiosity if you might have been inclined to read the Quran too, despite Rupert Murdoch-&-Company’s publishing houses’ and media’s propaganda against the Quran and anything that might have anything to do with it. I find people utterly ignorant about it; I’ve even been asked if Muslim women are permitted to touch / read the Quran!!!!! And people accuse the Quran / Muhammed (pbuh) to belong to the caves!)

—–

Re “When the RCC was at the height of power and the inquisitions were in full swing, the so-called true church of god happily went about torturing …”

I am not “Christian”, though believe in Prophet Jesus (pbuh) son of Mary, so I ask [you] this:

A chair is used to sit on. A chair has also been used to bash people’s heads. Have you yet given up on chairs?

A knife is used to cut vegetables. A knife has also been used to stab human beings. Have you ever given up on knives?

A sheet of paper has been used to scandalise, to slander, to cheat etc; its sharp edges even used to cut flesh; folded up to stab … have you ever given up on using paper because it has been used for so many bad things?

(We could go on and on with innumerable examples, would you not agree?)

But you might quickly retort: But a chair is not to blame. A knife is not to blame. A sheet of paper is not to blame …

Likewise, Reb, the teachings of Solomon, David, Jesus, Muhammad (may peace be upon them all) etc. Now if the RCC did what it did, it certainly certainly certainly wasn’t what Jesus taught. (Nor Muhammad, nor David, Moses, Solomon …)

Jesus DID NOT exhort people to rape, murder etc.

It’s greedy men who distorted the teachings of the men of God so that they could maintain their dominion over other men.

If you understand this, would you still lambast “religion”?

If you would, then would you be fair and give up on the use of chairs and knives and paper etc too? (Kindly do not dismiss this as “too simplistic”. You are wise enough to know that the most complex issues have the simplest arguments / solutions!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd9MvU7mNIc

(N.B. Ignore the around-first 42 seconds. Let that not be a distraction to this distraction.)

—–

Re “Religion is a dividing force and people fight and die in the names of all these gods … ”

I will, InshAllah – God Willing – address this matter at another time.

—–

But I can sense you are still enervated much with anger at the Truth that the world doesn’t know, and a semblance – only a semblance – of which you seem to have gathered. Without further ado, Reb, I present you and other viewers this:

N.B. For the love of gaining knowledge, watch it all – all of it. You might find your research falling into place, and understand the why of the foolhardiness of the fallacious that so frustrates you:

The Arrivals
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1035417576830

@Tim;…
I don’t want to mention my particular native language… but let me say a learned words to say in its compilations to use.

@ 1400;…
This rings a bell for every one:

78. They said: Hast thou come unto us to pervert us from that (faith) in which we found our fathers, and that you two may own the place of greatness in the land? We will not believe you two.

Faith and reason… this Moises and Aaron, but as it was, “I believed that someone had said this, “My father is dead, long live the King!” Maybe, just maybe, same true with the Pharaoh. A problem arouse from them… “New King, new race”… or relatives for religious for that matter.

And what is it about I usually heard on rebellions… “Oh, you discontented mothers… Look what you have created?”

Peace…

Jeri: yes, I do have the friends healed from cancer and heart diease and asthma just like I say. How rude of you to call me a liar. I’ve listed their names earlier on a different thread, but it’s not right to cater to your insult.

Why don’t you just yahoo or google testimonies of divine healing? Or look up the links I gave you? I’m quite sure you will find thousands and that number is not an exageration. I’ve met people divinely healed every where I’ve gone in the world, and many of them can be medically proven, yes. I met one of the Blackwood brothers (the singing group) who was divinely healed of the same cancer that killed Patrick Swazey. Intstantly. Miraculously. Perfectly. I shook his hand and listened to his story. Google the group and see if you can find his testimony, but please never call me a liar again about such information.

Reb: You know I wasn’t trying to include your quote as being directly from the Bible. I was quoting you and you were quoting the Bible. I cut and pasted, and put quotes around what you had wrote. Anyone can see that. This is an example of a cut and paste with quotes around it and what was actually typed:

“Charles B.
December 13th, 2009 at 14:25
Reb: You said “Charles, I have great news buddy. Since you believe what the bible says and you practice what the WORD says, here is something you must have missed. There is no reason in this world a believer should be sick!

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith will raise him up. James 5:14

I’m responding because Tim wanted to hear a response, not so much for you, REB.

Tim: This is for you.

First of all, it says when you are sick, to be prayed for, you have misquoted the Bible (as you always do) by saying that we should never be sick.”

Anyone can see where your insulting ends and where the Bible quote begins. What an odd thing for you to latch onto. Perhaps I should have said: “you are misrepresenting this quote by insinuation” that we should never get sick, but then you would have just found some other insult to harp on.

Anyone can clearly see I wasn’t inferring that what you said was part of the Bible.

I’ve also commented extensively on the Most Hated Family in America already and you can read it if you like.

Please abide by your suggestion and stop posting to me and I will do the same as obviously you have no sense of honor and understanding.

P.S. I never said I didn’t care about abused children. Why are you putting those words in my mouth? I am saying you equate them either intentially or unintentionally with Christians and Christian matters. Never stop advocating for those that are innocent and in need of our assistence, but do so in an ethical mannor. Please.

Here is the real treasure that the Image of God had taken for granted:
http://ancientskyscraper.com/
and this;
http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_11.htm

As of now, many have taken root in believing that science is the answer… I hope they will have the heart to rule their brain.

Words are meant to be read not of the man therein… Have you heard about ‘privacy’?

Eyes are made for seeing and not for reading… maybe it is the reason why ‘my words’ are not read enough.

As it is, bird species of the same feathers flocks together….

Solomon:

KK now says: “Water from a sweet well is the best water of all. Drink deeply!” You sound like a Hawaiian. Whoever called you a “troll” was sadly mistaken and cannot judge character very well.

KK

KK
Excuse me satan but your ‘christian’ mask is slipping and your fangs are beginning to show. You need a refresher course if you are going to continue to try and fool people.

Proverbs 20:3 It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.

2 Thessalonians 3:11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

1 Timothy 5:13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not.

1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters.

Achem, you are a real person and I like that. I guess the Constitution is still in effect for us ‘heathens’ so I shall continue on.

BTW, I saw jesus today wearing a t-shirt that said “What would I do”.

Reb:

Thank you. I certainly learned a lot of things I never knew before, from you.

Is KK lycanthropizing? She might be a warwulf.

KK: Charles B.

I think you just have to “man up” to use a nice Southern term and just turn the other cheek and let REB have the last punch.

Ok. If I can. It’s a little like letting your least favorite fat friend have the last pork chop or two (or three) at the church potluck; it’s just hard to let it go!

Ok. True story time! My mom and dad love church potlucks too, as all good “Southern Christians” do. Dad especially. He ate all the fried chicken, perhaps a bit too eagerly with seconds and/or thirds and after the last piece was gone, mom walked up to the empty dish and said “Oh, good! Everyone ate my fried chicken.” Dad, to his surprise said, “Mother, if I had known that was your fried chicken, I would have eaten something else and we could have just taken the leftover chicken home!”

What Mr. B. learned from the story: Always ask the Mrs. what she’s making for potluck so you can either conserve it or help it disappear depending on the situation at hand! LOL,

Mr. Razor: I would rather have you learn something from me than from REB. If I could figure out a more complicated way to say that, I would, but that’s the heart of the matter.

REB: I wish you weren’t going to “Hell in a handbasket” as you’re actually almost intelligent in a very rude sorta way. You could do more good if you were a Christian rather than a deconstructor of all that is good and righteous. Seriously. Sharper stones than you have tried chipping away at the Cornerstone of Christianity, who is Christ Jesus, and they have yet to even make a dent in the true Church’s foundation.

Wise words, Solomon. Well, I didn’t really understand any of it because of the language barrier, but it sounds better than what most people have to say to each other.

Solomon: I’ll try harder next time.

Razor:

If you want to see a great werewolf movie, I recommend the Mystery Science Theater 3000 viewing of “Werewolf.”

Preemptive apologies to Vlatko for being waaayyyyy off topic.

Is everybody into Werewolfs tonight? Heheheheh.

Some good Werewolf movies.

American Werewolf in London. (1981)

Dog Soldiers. (2002)

Company of Wolves.(1984)

Silver Bullet. (1985)

The Howling(1981)

I’d rather be a ratchet than a nut…

Good thinking “Solomon”. Cats are independent.

Well, Red Sea crossing… Have you known that three richest man on earth believed to be an Illuminati have perished in Titanic? The Titanic was commandeered by Smith…

Thousand of people have died there…

Wow .. these are some of the most un-enlightened opinions I have ever read. Enjoy your religious prisons.

Sorry, Vlatko, but I can’t help posting all of it here because it seems that the links I post probably don’t open or something … :-P

@ Ben W,

Pseudo-Scientific Demagoguery

The materialists claim that the establishment of their school of thought in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries was directly connected to the progress of science and that the dialectical method was a fruit plucked from the fertile tree of science.

They depict every philosophy apart from materialism as a form of idealism, opposed to the scientific method of thought, and insist that their position is a scientific and progressive one. According to them, realism consists in turning away from metaphysical truths; everyone ought to base his worldview on sensory and empirical logic and opt for materialism. But this claim is nothing more than a fanatical illusion based on unproven theories. Views such as these derive directly from a system of thought centered on materialism; within it, everything is defined and delimited with reference to materialism.

Belief in an object of worship is without doubt one of the principal sources of human culture and knowledge. The propounding of belief in God as basis for a correct worldview has brought about profound changes in the foundations of society and thought throughout human history. Now, too, in the age of science and technology, when man has found his way into space, a considerable number of scientists have a religious outlook as part of the intellectual system; they have come to believe in the existence of a creator, a source for all beings, not only by means of the heart and the conscience, but also through deduction and logic.

*****
If the materialists’ justification for their worldview were true, instead of being based on inadequate knowledge of the history of materialist thought, there ought to be a particular connection between science and an inclination to materialism; only materialist views would be represented in the realm of science.

Has every philosopher and scholar, in every age, held an atheistic worldview and belonged to the materialist camp? A scholarly examination of the lives and works of great thinkers will suffice to show that not only is the religious camp by no means empty of true scientists, but also that many great scientific thinkers and personalities, including the founders of muchof contemporary science, have believed in monotheism.

In addition, materialistic and atheistic beliefs have by no means been confined to the period of the evolution and advancement of science; since ancient times and, indeed, throughout history, materialists have stood in opposition to a united front of believers.

Today it is primarily in a vulgarized form of Marxism that the wares of science have been turned into a tool of deception. Those who supposedly should be mapping out their path in the clear light of knowledge and weighing all matters with profound, logical perception and investigation, in complete freedom from all fanaticism and hasty prejudice—precisely these people have fallen prey to stagnation and blind imitation. They have arrogantly denied all values higher than intellect and reason, and even boast of their ignorant denial.

Their claim that the coming of science has put out the notion of God is purely rhetorical and has nothing to do with logical method, because even thousands of scientific experiments could not possibly suffice to demonstrate that no non-material being or factor exists.

Materialism is a metaphysical belief, and must, therefore, be proven or disproven according to philosophical method. Precisely for this reason, an acceptance of materialism cannot be made a basis for the denial of metaphysics. To interpret materialism in such a sense is in the final analysis strictly meaningless; it would be a superstitious notion involving the perversion of truth, and to regard it as scientific would, in fact, be treason to science.

It is true that until very recently man was largely unaware of the natural causes and factors that give rise to phenomena and that he had little awareness of the occurrences that took place around him. But his belief did not derive from ignorance, for if it did, the foundations of belief in God would have collapsed once certain facts concerning the world were discovered. On the contrary, we see in the present age that with the discovery of a whole mass of mysteries concerning creation, belief in God has taken on added dimensions.

Now science illumines a limited realm; the scientific worldview is a knowledge of the part, not a knowledge of the whole. Science is unable to demonstrate the aspect and form of the whole of creation. But at the same time, since the scientific mode of perception is precise and specific, belief in God acquires a more scientific natureand anewkind of logic through theadvancementof science. Man’s awareness comes into being through his perception of cause and effect, and one who believes in causality underlying phenomena cannot possibly ignore the role of the most fundamental factor that is at work over and above all other causes.

*****
Until very recently, man imagined his own being to consist simply of a symmetrical and well-proportioned form; he was unaware of the complex mysteries contained in his creation. Today he has discovered astounding and far-reaching truths concerning the interior of his slight being, realizing that there are tens of millions of billions of cells in the body. This makes possible a particular appreciation of the greatness of the creator responsible for this artifact that was not possible in the past.

Is it logical to say that belief in God is peculiar to those who know nothing about man’s composition and creation, and that, by contrast, a scientist who is aware of the natural laws and factors responsible for man’s growth and development, who knows that law and precise calculation preside over all stages of man’s existence, is bound to believe that matter, lacking all perception and consciousness, is the source of the wondrous laws of nature?

Do scientific discoveries and knowledge cause such a scientist to conclude that matter, unknowing and unperceiving, is his creator and that of all beings? Materialism looks at the world with one eye closed and, as a result, is unable to answer numerous questions.

Science, too, offers no answer to the question of whether the world can be divided into two parts, material and non-material, or to the question of whether the world has an innate purpose. These questions do not belong to the realm of science; scientific knowledge can acquaint us—to a certain degree—with what is, but it is unable to show us a direction in life or inspire us with a path to be followed.

A scientific worldview cannot, then, be the foundation for a human ideology. The value of scientific knowledge is primarily practical, in that it enables man to dominate nature. It is ideal and theoretical values that are required as the foundation of belief.

Furthermore, science is based on experiment and investigation, and laws having experiment for their foundation are bound to be changing and unstable. Faith requires a basis that partakes of eternity, being immune against change, and is able to answer questions such as the nature and shape of the world as a whole in a trustworthy and permanent manner. Only thus can man’s need for a comprehensive interpretation and analysis of existence be met.

As he advances toward perfection, man requires spiritual and intellectual equilibrium; lacking an aim, he will stray along false paths and risk disaster. A man who does not find his aim in religion will pursue an aim of his own making, which will be nothing other than a kind of revolt against the will of nature; it will have nothing to do with creativity or intellectual maturity.

The Reasons for Denial and Unbelief

Books on the history of religion try to delineate the factors that have drawn men to religion. But attempts such as they make are in vain and incapable of uncovering the truth of the matter. It is necessary to focus on man’s innate tendency to monotheism, that primary existential characteristic of the human species which gives man—for all his internal contradictions, thoughts, and desires—a special place in creation. It then becomes possible to discover the factors that lead man to trample on his own nature by foreswearing religion.

Man’s religious ties are an outgrowth of his nature, and materialism is something opposed to his nature. In accordance with his specific make-up, man will aeate his own god if he does not discover the true God, and the god he discovers may be nature or historical inevitability. This fa;we god takes the place of the true God with respect to comprehensiveness of authority, effectiveness of decree, and capacity to guide man on a certain path and propel him forward, unhindered by anyone’s desires.

This is the source of the trade in false gods, the adherence to the new idolatry, that would cruelly sacrifice God to history and exchange a pearl for a bead.

Alas that so many people smitten with self-inflicted abjection have bowed down before the idol they themselves have fashioned and deified! They have turned away from the peerless creator and willingly accepted the polluting disgrace of such misdirected worship.

If we examine the matter closely, we see that the appearance of materialism in Europe as a school of thought, the severance of men’s links with a sublime principle, their imprisonment in the fetters of matter, the choice of science in place of religion—all this was caused by a series of social and historical factors that emerged in the West.

*****
One of the factors that aroused a widespread reaction in Europe and caused the emergence of freethinking and anti-religious propaganda, was the crushing pressure exerted by the Christian ecclesiastical authorities at the beginning of the Renaissance on scholars who were propounding new scientific ideas.

In addition to specifically religious doctrines, the Church was also beholden to certain scientific principles concerning man and the world that it had inherited from ancient—primarily Greek— philosophers and that it was placed on the same footing as religious beliefs. Whatever theory appeared to contradict the Bible and these inherited principles was regarded as heretical, and whoever espoused it would be severely punished.

The clear contradiction between science and religion created a mutual hostility in both camps. Intellectuals and scientists saw tha t the Christian church was enslaving intelligence and thought, preventing the free development of ideas; through its adherence to a petrified systemof thoughtand ananti-intellectual tradition,itwas creating a stifling atmosphere for the man of the new age. Thinkers thus retreated into a painful isolation from religion.

These accumulating pressures finally led to violent reactions that engulfed the whole of Europe. Once the power and dominion of the Church declined and its oppressiveness came to an end, Western thought recovered its lost freedom and reacted strongly against the limitations once imposed on it.

The intellectuals removed the chains of ancient ritual from their necks and turned away from religion. All the pain and anger they had felt found expression in a great wave of hostility to religion. An acute spiritual crisis began that culminated in the separation of science from religion. An illogical desire for vengeance on religion led to the denial of heavenly truths and of the existence of God.

It is true that some of the doctrines connected with religion were illogical or even baseless, having no connection with authentic religious knowledge. But to take revenge on the Church is one thing, and to fall into hasty and erroneous prejudice concerning religion, as such, is something else. It is obvious that vengeance, being a purely emotional matter, has nothing to do with scholarly precision.

The spiritual poverty of man thus advanced at a rate commensurate with his scientific and technological wealth. As he progressed in industry, he regressed in ethics and spirituality, to such a degree that he lacked the moral capacity to make proper use of his newly acquired knowledge.

Scientific knowledge is in itself indifferent to values; one cannot determine the duties of a responsible human being by referring to science. However far science advances, it cannot see more than one step ahead of itself. Human knowledge cannot attain to the essence of the world and perceive it in its totality, nor can it foretell the future destiny of man.

It is only the worldview of monotheism that does not attempt to confine man to the material aspects of his existence. On the contrary, through the symbols and signs that have been given to man to guide him on his path, monotheism delineates an exalted origin and destiny for man. Once man places himself on the path of monotheism, he acquires a comprehensive worldview within the framework of which he finds answers to his probing fundamental question. Once he has reached this stage of comprehensive and multidimensional belief, man’s life takes on fresh vigor and the values that are the fruit of that worldview come to fruition. The struggle with the church was, then, one factor in the divorce of science from religion.

Another group abandoned religion and took refuge in materialism because the concepts propounded by the Church were improper and inadequate, lacking transcendental value. These concepts were naturally found unacceptable and unconvincing by intelligent people. The church would present God in material and human terms, in a sense that was opposed to the human desire for absolute values and the striving to break through and transcend all limiting frameworks.

There can be no doubt that if an indubitable truth is impressed in someone’s mind in the defective form of a legend, that person will react negatively as soon as he reaches intellectual maturity.

Confronted with the anthropomorphic depiction of God made in Christian theology, the exaltation of belief over reason, and the insistence that faith should precede thought, enlightened people realized that these narrow-minded efforts to imprison wisdom and science in the monopoly held by Christian theology were incompatible with rational criteria and scientific method. Since they had no authentic source from which they might learn true teachings about God, being wholly dependent on the institutions of the Church and its corrupted books, and since they had no access to a superior system which would satisfy both their spiritual and their material needs and offer them a suitable framework for integrating all the vital elements of life, material and spiritual, emotional and intellectual, the worldview of materialism took root in them, leading to the denial of all transcend’ental and supra-human values.

They were unaware that although error leads religion astray when it follows the path of ignorance, true religion, free of all illusion, superstition and distortion, can liberate man from bondage to myth and superstition, hold him firm on the axis of true belief, and supply him with a correct understanding of teachings concerning God, one that satisfies the enquiring mind.

Instead, Western intellectuals were aware only of the superstitious aspect of false religion and how the established dogmas of religion lacked all logical basis, so they had no hesitation in condemning religion as such to be baseless. Their judgment was based on their discouraging experiences with their own religion, and it could not fail, then, to be hasty, unrealistic, irrational and illogical.

This is expressed as follows by a scholar of physiology and biochemistry: “The fact that certain scholars have not been led, in the course of their researches, to a perception of the existence of God, has numerous reason. Here we will mention only two of them. First, the political circumstances created by despotism, together with the attendant social and administrative conditions, have tended to cause men to deny the existence of the Maker. Second, human thought has always been influenced by certain fantasies and i11usions, and although man may lhave no fear of spiritual or bodily torment, he is still not completely free to choose the right path.

“In Christian families, most children come to believe early in life in the existence of a God similar to man, as if man had been created in the form of God. When they begin to enter the realm of science and to learn and implement scientific concepts, they can no longer reconcile their feeble, anthropomorphic concept of God with the logical evidence and methods of science. So, after a certain time, when all hope of reconciling belief and science has disappeared, they totally abandon all concept of God and expel it from their minds.

“The main cause for this is that the evidenceof logic and thecategories of science do not modify their previous feelings and beliefs but, instead, cause them to feel that they were mistaken in their previous belief in God. Under the influence of this feeling, combined with other psychological factors, they are appalled at the inadequacy of their concepts and turn away from all attempts at the knowledge of God.”20

Hence, scientists tried, by propounding all kinds of laws and formulae, to leave no place for God and religion in the solution of questions touching on existence and creation. They tried to sever men’s hopes from religion and to depose God from playing any role in the functioning of the world and the ordering of nature.

Whenever they came to a dead end, they tried to solve the problem by means of various hypotheses or postpone its definite solution until more extensive research had taken place. They imagined that in this way they were avoiding surrender to non-scientific formulae and superstitions. Thus, although they did escape the perils of assigning polytheism, they regrettably took up arms for irreligion and atheism.

*****
Although a faith in God and belief in an originating principle is natural and innate in man, it cannot be compared to the material necessities of life which man constantly strives to obtain. It is quite distinct from material life, and being an inward need, belongs to a totally separate category.

In addition, it is easier to deny an invisible being than it is to affirm it, given our inability to describe it adequately. People who lack mental capacity, therefore, choose the easy and painless path of denial instead of undertaking mental exertion. The path of denial does not, moreover, involve any apparent harm. By turning away from God, people gradually acquire an attitude of obstinacy and hostility to religion, tainted with fanaticism. The profound effects of such an attitude can easily be seen in the malicious arguments of those who have turned their backs on religion.

It is also easier to denyan invisiblebeingbecause to affirm it implies various obligations for man; those who wish to shake off those Dbligations simply deny the existence of an originating principle.

The Quran says: “Does man wish to spend all the remaining days of his life in impiety and vain desire? For he asks, implying denial, ‘When will be the day of resurrection and accounting?’ Say: ‘On a day when the eyes of mankind will be blinded in terror and fear.” (75:5-7)

*****
The teachings of ignorant and illogical professional ascetics also cannot be overlooked as a factor impelling certain groups of people in the direction of materialism.

The instincts that come into being together with the natural life of man that are intertwined with his existence, not only are not vain and purposeless; they are, also, a determining and destiny-shaping force, a factor of development and motion, that drives man forward to the purpose envisaged in his creation. It is true that man should not be a blindfolded slave to his instincts like a prisoner all of whose being and motions are under the control of the jailer. But he should also not do battle with the reality of his own being and seek to block all activity and movement on the part of his instincts. A fruitful existence for man is, in fact, dependent on the active presence in his life of his instincts, deployed in proper equilibrium; the suppression of the instincts leads to complexes and the destruction of the personality.

The worldview prevailing in Christianity during the Middle Ages was based on an exclusive orientation to the hereafter that entailed the devaluating of the material world. Now what will be the consequence if one denies all validity to the forces of instinct, in the name of God and religion, and even tries to annihilate them; if one sanctifies celibacy and monasticism and denounces as impure marriage and procreation, the very activity that secures the survival of the species; and if one regards poverty and deprivation as the guarantee of bliss? Will it, then, be possible to expect religion to play an active and creative role?

The true role and mission of religion is to refine, to guide and to control the instincts; to delimit the sphere of their activity; and to purge them of all perversion and excess. It is not to annihilate and abolish them.

Through controlling the instincts and striving always to free himself from the trap they may present, man creates a purposeful destiny for himself. If he fails to do this, the intenseclashof instincts within him is so intense that he cannot easily be master of his own being. He, therefore, needs a comprehensive system of moral education.

Man is, on the one hand, subject to the influence of the religious impulse; this tames him inwardly and draws together his scattered energies in the grasp of its power, directing them toward the acquisition of virtue and benefit. On the other hand, he is also subject to the influence of his instincts.

In any society where people are constantly told, in the name of God and religion, that the path to happiness lies in turning one’s back on the gifts of this world, an opening is automatically aeated for the development of materialism and a concentration on material values, so that the lofty concepts of religion, with all their farreaching implications, disappear from the scene.

But this does not represent the true logic of religion. True religionsdirect man’s attention to authentic spiritualvalues,basing themselves on belief in the creator and presenting man with comprehensive teachings and principles for living. They extend the field of his vision to the frontiers of the heavenly realm, deliverhim from the servitude of self-worship and materialism, and, at the same time, permit him to enjoy material pleasures to a reasonable extent.

*****
Some people imagine that the free enjoyment of certain things religion has prohibited will guarantee them happiness. They think that religion is obstinately fighting against all enjoyment and is in no mood to compromise with the pleasures of this world, as if God were forcing man to choose between happiness in this world and happiness in the hereafter.

This attitude to religion is totally misleading and unrealistic. If religion seeks to play a role in man’s efforts, and his choice of direction, it is because unbridled indulgence of desire, unconditional surrender to instinct and appetite, and obedience to the commands of the ego, darken man’s life and propel him into a form of unconscious slavery. Despite his essentially pure nature, he falls from his true rank and strays from his real path. Were the free indulgence of instinctual desire not a cause of eternal misery and painful degradation, it would not have been forbidden.

It is considerations such as these which make it possible to understand why religion has forbidden certain things and how worldly happiness is compatible with happiness in the hereafter.

Similar considerations apply to the imposition on man of certain duties. The attempt to perform obligatory acts of worship, sincerely and without any hypoaisy, brings about an inward change in man; the purpose of these acts is not in any way to diminish man’s worldly happiness.

Worship is like a tempest in the stagnant lagoon of the heart, transforming man’s inner nature and his criteria of judgment. It is the cornerstone on which the foundation of religion is made firm, a fruitful educative practice that penetrates the depths of the soul. Its sharp sword severs the skein of corruptionand lowliness inman, enabling him to take flight for a pure, vast and limitless realm. In short, it makes it possible for man to grow to true maturity.

Not only is there no contradiction between the concerns of life and those of the spirit; spiritual concerns are conducive to a life of greater happiness in this world.

It may be that the unconvincing and illogical teachings of Christianity have influenced the anti-religious tendencies of people like Bertrand Russell. He evidentlybelieved that faith in God leads to unhappiness, as is apparent from the following words: “The teachings of the Church have made man choose between two forms of misery and deprivation: either misery in this world and deprivation of its enjoyments, or misery in the hereafter and deprivation of the joys of paradise. For the Church, one of these two forms of misery must necessarily be endured. One must either submit to misery in this world and suffer deprivation and isolation in order to enjoy pleasure in the hereafter, or, if one wishes to enjoy the pleasures of this world, he must accept that he will be deprived of pleasure in the hereafter.”

The diffusion of opinions such as these, which display an intense and profound ignorance of the religious worldview, may deterrnine the fate of the prevailing religion in a given society. Their effect on human beliefs and actions is too profound to be adequately measured with a passing, superficial glance. This mode of thought has caused the attention of man to be directed exclusively to the material sphere?consciously or unconsciously. The resulting concentration on pleasure and indulgence has caused the weakening of spiritual and moral concerns.

Religion does not condemn man to enduring one of two forms of misery. It is entirely possible to combine happiness in this world with happiness in the hereafter. Why should God, Whose treasury of mercy and grace is inexhaustible, not wish for His servants a complete happiness that embraces both this world and the hereafter? This is precisely what He does wish.

*****
Another factor in the spread of materialistic ideas has been indulgence of passion and immersion in the cesspool of lust. Every mental perception and idea forms the base of some external action; man’s path of action takes shape under the influence of his beliefs. Conversely, man’s actions and morals also bring about qualitative changes in his mental habits and mode of thought.

A man who worships his lusts will gradually lose all exalted ideas about God. Once he chooses an axis for his existence other than God and imagines that whatever exists in this world has simply been cast into it, free of any purpose, so that the very idea of an aim in life becomes meaningless, he begins to devote all his mental energies to the maximizing of pleasure. This humiliating plunge to a lowly plane of existence withers the roots of all aspiration for growth and development.

The idea of belief in God is, by contrast, like a seed that needs suitable soil in which to grow. It can blossom only in a pure environment, an environment in which man can swiftly and easily attain the degree of perfection that is peculiar to him, thanks to a framework in which the principles of his life are set down. Belief in God can never flourish in an unfavorable environment where corruption is rampant.

One of the obstacles to the knowledge of God and the reasons for man denying this existence, despite all the clear signs and decisive proofs that are available, is, then, surrender to sin and indulgence in passion.

Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq, upon whom be peace, said in answer to Mufaddal in the Risalah-yi Ahlija: “I swear by my own soul that God has not failed to make Himself known to the ignorant, for they see clear proofs and decisive indications of the Creator in His creation and behold wondrous phenomena in the kingdom of the heavens and on earth that point to their Creator.

“The ignorant are those who have opened the gates of sin before them and followed the path of indulgence in passion and lust. The desires of their souls have gained dominance over their hearts, and because of their oppression of their own selves, Satan has gained dominance over them. God has sealed the hearts of the transgressors.

The desire for comfort, contentiousness, profligacy, the weak logic of certain ignorant believers?these, too, are among the factors impelling men to materialism.

The chaos and confusion of life, the abundance of mass produced goods, affluence and power, the dazzling and distracting aspects of modern life, the proliferation of means for enjoyment and pleasure?all these completely overwhelm greedy men. They try completely to withdraw themselves from the sphere of religious concern and refuse to accept the authority of any superior power, for not only would this not bring them any material benefit, it would also rein in the tempest of their overweening desires.

In an environment where people are immersed in sin, dissipation and corruption, and refuse to accept any limitation governing their deeds, religion can exist only in name.

Self-indulgent and materialistic people cannot be seekers and worshippers of God. When one of the two opposing principles, pleasure-seeking and belief in God, has occupied the mental space of an individual, the other must necessarily vacate it. Once the spirit of worship prevails in human existence, it casts out all materialistic inclinations by severing the firm fetters of lowly desire and inspiring constant effort in man to ascend in the direction of his goal. Thus, a complete model of human freedom from slavery to nature emerges.

The more elevated and distant the goal man sets himself, the sharper is the incline leading toward it and the greater and more prolonged the effort required to reach it. So, if we choose God as our goal, we have chosen an infinitely elevated goal, and the path leading to attainment of the goal will be similarly infinite, although clear and straight at the same time. It is a goal that will answer many problems and questions, and since it will compel us to negate the tyranny of the ego, it will bestow absolute freedom on us.

If we accept God as our goal, freedom will be harmonized with our growth and development. Our efforts to develop and progress will take on content and meaning, thanks to the divine impulse and the desire for eternal life. In short, the desire for progress and advancement, once regulated by the worship of God, neither contradicts man’s freedom nor results in his enslavement.

We can claim to have attained freedom only when we are in step with the universal advancement of the world toward perfection, deliberately, consciously, and in awareness of the benefits this will bring. To act in obedience to nature or historical inevitability is not freedom, for when man ignores his own welfare to follow the dictates of nature, this is nothing other than slavery or blind obedience.

P.S.
Apologies for the oversight re crediting the source in the centurion post; the extract pasted was written by Sayyed Mujtaba Musavi Lari in his book “God and His Attributes”, now available in e-form at http://www.al-islam.org/GodAttributes/

To all:

“1400 Years’s” argument condensed and concentrated is trying to say that “Man is not truly fulfilled until he embraces his destiny of knowing and serving Allah.”

Correct?

KK

Wait wait wait. So reaching OT9 won’t make me fulfilled? Are you saying all that time and money I spent auditing was a waste???

Check this out, God told Adam and Eve that,the day that they will eat the fruit of the tree, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they will surely die; But the serpent told Eve, that you will not surely die, for God knows that in the day you eat this that your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Look what happen afterwards, their eyes were open just like the serpent said, and they knew that they were naked(ability to see and observe deeply), and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons(this is knowledge and creativity);

Afterwards Adam said” i hid myself because i was naked (this like conscience here): just like kid, they don’t feel ashamed of being naked even in public until they get that knowledge from someone or may be when they grow up their consciences make them feel ashame of being naked, and then they start to cover their nakedness because they can now observe since they know the difference; But what happen Neither Adam nor Eve died after eating it (we all know that if you eat or drink something that will kill you, don’t you supposed to die in the next moment), but what happen is that they didn’t die right away, just God cursed them 3, and after, look what the Lord God said in Genesis 3:22″ Behold,THE MAN IS BECOME AS ONE OF US, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever”;

Now you the judge, first, man were created like THEM but he didn’t know because the truth was conceal from him, but after eating it he realize that in what state he was and acquired knowledge, so he didn’t die but everything happen the way the serpent told Eve( So who’s telling lies and who’s telling the truth(YOU BE THE JUDGE).

My point here is that who is the one that the bible represent as Serpent? propably they should not use the name”serpent” but “an eye opener”; If really the serpent wanted Adam and Eve to die, they would die right after they ate the fruit but didn’t, instead they acquire knowledge, so God cursed them for receiving knowledge or for transgressing? We all know that even in our society that one can become a victim or be in danger for receiving a concealed truth or knowledge kept from him or other, and he is called “betrayer” any one that betrays a person, a group or organization whether good or evil, would you curse someone for revealing lies or truth? I think for revealing the truth, since the secret is known to WHOEVER WASN’T SUPPOSED TO KNOW, we see this in real life in our society and sometimes in movies too. WE NEED SOME EXPLANATION HERE???

To Faith:
I’m not a bible believer, but you are wrong. They died just like God said, because they became mortal humans. That was what the serpent wanted.

Have you ever heard about incarnation? Because John the baptist was one, he had the spirit of Elijah; What about DNA? A man blood line extends to many generations, probably a person may even incarnate in his own blood line again, who knows? This is just my opinion.

To Falcon:
Use your head here, since it seems like, you never study a word over and over again to understand it; Don’t just defends something because you think it’s going to save you, believe what is true, but no lies and confusion; Don’t you even ask yourself, if man kind was supposed to be eternal, how would the earth be today( or maybe the garden)? since man kind do multiply, don’t you see that earth would be filled with people, and there wouldn’t be no space enough for us all, and how would it be today? still living with our ancestors from the beginning?

To Faith:
Relax…take medication if you need it.
So what you are saying is that you (and the serpent) is smarter than God…because with the Tree of Life, God would have created overpopulation on the earth? I’m not even a bible believer, but what do you know about the original intention if it all were true? Anyway, eternal life could be something completely different than everybody living on a planet forever.

You know what Faith, I don’t know where you live brother, I guess probably you live in a nice and peace country, but not like in some third world countries; the reason why, I always ask myself is about the “Existence of one powerful God, who doesn’t stand evil?”, because i did realize that, evil always prevail in this society here on earth, I studied the bible, i did embrace the so-called” word of God”, since I heard from this society as a child, innocent, but willing to learn, happiness is always every child dream; Parent teaches a child what they know, being a lie or the truth, who knows? As a child you learn everything first from your parents, and then from the society; If a lie has been passed on from parents, it goes to the next and some generations, unless there is a wise one. Most of the countries in the world had been colonized by many kingdoms with different believes and religions, like 2/3 of Africa’s countries been colonized by the roman empire(who brought the catholic faith as Christians), and the rest by the Arabic empire(who brought the Muslim faith), like the Middle East, there is a lot of Muslims than Christians, like Asia, we see the Buddhist and then other ones too, imagine that, you were born in one of them religions, you will learn whatever your parents or your society taught you, but when Wisdom opens your eyes to distinguish the good and the evil, so you start observing the society and its truth, also the nature and its truth; I’ll tell you something Falcon, nobody teaches a baby how to suck the mom’s breast, nobody teaches a baby how to cry for food or something else, but they teach them what to speak, how to write and read, calculate and so on…; what we all learned, it’s most evil and less good but concealed from the truth; You know that in this society that, whoever reveals the truth, get murdered and get portrays as a criminal, because most of the powerful people in this society are evil, Have you ever heard this sayings? “Powerful people protege powerful people”. so anyways my reasons are, since God watches everything, How can in the province of Kivu in Congo, women and this little girl of 3 years old been rape by men while God seating there in Heaven watching, a massacre committed at a catholic church in Rwanda http://www.afrol.com/Countries/Rwanda/backgr_cross_genocide.htm, where is He when we need Him to cuddle us or to save when evil is being committed ; where is God, when people needs him, since he said that “no arm will come near you”; you know there is a lot of believers all over the world today who go to different churches, specially in third world countries, giving tithes, gifts, prayers, fasting, asking for his forgiveness if one committed sin, He’s there to receive tithes, but no there to save when needed, and we all say that” it was His will”; Have you ever heard the voice of God as you hear d the voice of your own father, mouth to hear, or maybe, it’s just your personnel conviction, like the same way that you think that your prayers had been heard or maybe you had been forgiven, we all imagine the unimaginable, the same way people dream or think about how the Heaven looks like and how God looks like and how the Angels looks like, nobody had never seen God anyway or heard his voice, if you never heard his voice then don’t try to argue with me( I’m not talking about like, Hearing Him spiritually), I’m talking about hearing Him or Jesus-Christ from his mouth to my hear, like person to person, or the same way, He talked to Abraham or Jacob or the sons of Israel by the Mont Sinai, what happen to God? since He never changed and always been the same? Jesus even never condemned Thomas for not believing without seeing? what He just said was” Bless is he who believe without seeing”, but He never said that” curse is the one who don’t believe without seeing? or maybe it’s sinful for the one who don’t believe also?” SO HERE IS THE QUESTION, WHERE ARE YOU CONVICTING ME FOR SIN HERE?

Falcon, what you need is brain reprogramming. That is modernization.

Youtube: “What Do Muslims Think of Jews Event” posted by ShababAlMehdi

Wow! I mean, “wow!”

What an interesting thread. One thing is pretty clear. Organized, traditional religions have committed a great deal of evil in the history of the world in the name of God who gets blamed for it all.

So many hurt feelings and so much outrage has been expressed. Yet few really possess a transcendent understanding of Life and the Scripture. It’s like so many are at the bottom of a deep well. I suppose that is the nature of this life. As usual, Charles B. is the closest. I would invite you over to my house for dinner if I could.

Reading all that, especially Reb’s exhaustive diatribes, has completely drained me. It was very interesting but I have nothing to add. Thanks to everyone who contributed — especially the angry ones. They teach me the most of all.

Best regards,

Chris

there are some very interesting posts on here as well as some deeply weird ones.. but as for religion.. it’s all about what gets you through the day… my problem starts when people start talking about the “One true God” as if it’s been proven… and how if you don’t worship him/it you’re then you’re going to hell because you’re evil. remember there is no real proof of any god.. that’s why it’s called faith… i could have faith in Obama ending the wars within the next month.. doesn’t mean it will happen… and in my opinion (and it is just an opinion) if there is a god as powerful as all these religions claim… why the hell would he need us to bow down to him\it and serve him\it.. any god i would believe in would judge from your actions towards your fellow man\woman and not from how much you said you worshipped him… i’m sorry these gods of the 3 big faiths are a little too vain for my liking.. but good luck with that…
and whats with all this heaven and hell nonsense.. if your only doing good things or believing in your god to get into heaven… wouldn’t your all knowing deity see through that?

One day, i will make it through all these comments, and actually watch the documentary. 1400′s will take me a week to go through.

How is the doc? I would really like to watch it.

Hmmm. I might add something after all. For those who just cannot get their heads around the concept of God being real, go check out my last comment for the documentary: “How did the Universe begin?” located at http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/how-did-the-universe-begin/#comments. It is not a proof for any particular religion. But for those who say there is no God, it should offer food for thought, in that the argument provides logical proof to the contrary.
Regards,
Chris

(sigh…)

The Mandelbrot set and infinite fractals are mathematical constructs with NO basis in reality, just as ‘infinity’ is a concept used in abstract mathematics and not in the real world. There is no such thing as infinity in the material universe – it is impossible. You beg the question when you present a statement as a scientific fact without basis. In fact, you do your argument no favors by pushing science into the realm of myth and legend.

How many of you have set two mirrors facing each other and looked into ‘infinity?’ Would you say that all the images are ‘real worlds?’ It’s not real, people!

To “believe” that infinity or infinite regress exists in the real, physical universe is to believe in the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus (…and you would say that I was the one who was trying to get people to believe in supernatural beliefs.). If you do not understand why infinity cannot exist in our reality, then please go back to a Jr. High School that teaches math. Good grief, no wonder the United States is falling behind.

You do not have to believe in God, but please don’t insult our intelligence. Offer up something other than science fiction, opinion and wishful thinking. Again, I say that the CA is not religion. It is a logical argument based upon Method.

Wouldnt infinity increase the chances of a god or gods existing? Maybe not of our universe but others?

Pi is not infinite but it has its functions for people to work out with its infinite value.

It’s just taken me hours to read this discussion – Reb write a book (or did you just paste it here) – I for one will buy it.

People – one thing – is this a competition for who can write the longest post? Ever heard of quality not quantity? How is it ever possible to follow discussions like this unless they are kept to a respectable length.

PS Solomon – you post in many discussions – what is the harm in revealing your origin, belief system and native language? I`m sorry but I amongst others really struggle to understand you and it would be helpful if we had some terms of reference.

PPS Chris(t) – still trying to sell Plato’s old weary word play as science?

Yavanna,

Still failing basic math and science, I see. Oh, but you’re getting a passing grade in your Science Fiction appreciation class. Well, that’s something…

@Savanna,

====(PS Solomon – you post in many discussions – what is the harm in revealing your origin, belief system and native language? I`m sorry but I amongst others really struggle to understand you and it would be helpful if we had some terms of reference.

PPS Chris(t) – still trying to sell Plato’s old weary word play as science?) =====

Well, I am honored that you have put me in the shoes of Prophet Paul(not to be confused with Apostle Paul) although I am sure it will not fit…

Anyway, as for the references, any written words or name could be simply be traced back. You are a Police as you have mentioned… Well, I am just a citizen… and here, we have the upper hand in laws to be served. That would be true in laws… but not necessarily in practices.

Being a believer of Christ is just the same with those I have you as a police in comparison… There is still a law that reign over, but reality is… Superman exist, so is Spiderman and Batman. Fighting “graft and corruption” is not just about fighting people but fighting their evil ways. Just like, for example, Prophet Paul is not Apostle Paul… and as of the discussion along with them, lions will not be living in this planet earth eating grass… and the Romans have proven their points with Prophet Paul.

I am sure you are aware that no Police could Police a Police… but the man on the spot.

If you believe in God, you are unscientific, irrational and illogical. Period.

Why can’t you marvel at the instinct of a singular cell that MAY have been dropped by aliens out on a picnic in space, to ultimately become a duck-billed platypus and a bee and a bat and a sloth and a whale and an eel and a cicada and a primate – over millions upon millions of years by trial and experiment, death and rebirth? I mean, do consider how a blundering cell MIGHT have died in its attempt to get on its way to ultimately becoming a crocodile, then cleverly PROBABLY left behind its notes on how it advanced and what MIGHT have gone wrong, and then another blind cell, instinctive by nature and without a brain, MIGHT have picked up on the left over notes and over millenia, experimented and grown and died and on and on until you and I see the variety of life as it is today.

How much more definitive and sure do you want us to get to drive into your dud brains that evilution is quite a plausible theory-fact??

To me it sounds PERFECTLY logical, mate.

And then look at us: how we observe and research flies and grasshoppers and gnats and other insects and birds and bats that became what they are without any sort of technology – only chance, and sheer determination; and us what with our wonderful cerebrum and technology, make our imperfect helicopters and jet planes and what-have-you based on what we observe in the perfect in nature?

Now what God do you allude to, Chris? Methinks you need to check your “more than two intellectual coppers”; they are totally fake. Now go. Check them!

By the way, you write very elegantly. Before morning, you must say a thank you to the monkeys that nurtured your talent for writing. They must have picked it up in a raw banana shoot they sucked on in Burundi millions of years ago and then engineered your complex DNA to make you a genius.

All through chance, yes, but … er … just shut up now okay? Or I will actually start insulting you properly.

P.S.
Mark: I am a very highly morally upright self-righteous person. I never mean to offend. How can I ever think of doing so? Hypocrisy? Na; not in me, mate.

Yavanna, I will try my best to get a thread going for you this weekend. I have been rather busy as of late but I highly recommend you google the website of Ralph Ellis and read his articles there. One cannot understand the bible without knowing just who the so-called OT patriarchs really were. Ellis is one of many who has discovered their true identity and this is not new. Freud also figured out the Hyksos Shepherd Kings of upper Egypt were the biblical figures under other names. Where these people came from remains a mystery but they violently invaded upper Egypt and reigned there for many generations until the true Egyptians of lower Egypt were powerful enough to overthrow them and kick them out. The stories are fascinating and the OT mumbo jumbo will make much more sense. They were and still are horrid vicious brutes amply reflected in the OT brutal tribal god yahweh. Also, the famous Egyptian historian Manetho is informative on the Hyksos as is Josephus.

BTW, don’t waste time on Chris. He is another hate filled pious hypocrite who can’t answer a straight forward question. If you’ve seen one, you have seen them all. sigh

Band of hecklers. What a waste of carbon. I offer you food, yet you insist on slop. I leave you to your conspiracy theories, UFOs, science fiction and wishful thinking. Take what comfort as you can as the day draws to an end. And someday, you will remember our conversations, as you lie on your soiled beds, bitter, alone, forgotten, and wishing you had paid better attention, as you breathe your last.

Yeah!

If only Chris had the brains at all to read and understand the Gospel of Dawkins, he wouldn’t be muttering under defeat like that, now would he!?

Oh, these theists, just why can’t they see the definitive logic in evilution!

Chris, you clearly did not evilvolve right; hope your apes try harder next time to evolve into more intelligent apes.

And for your God’s sake, read the Gospel of Darwin and his of his apostle Dawkins. They know it all; and no, when they conjecture and speculate what could have been, they don’t conjecture and speculate. They are scientists and so their’s scientific.

It’s simple as that.

Can’t you just get it?!

Rapture??!! Research project bluebeam. This technology is approx. 60 years old as is the HAARP program.

Chris, from your last post I suspect you are in great need of professional help and I urge you to get it. You are beginning to sound like Jim Jones and see yourself as a god. You’re not. You think you have it all correct. You don’t. You believe you can force your dogmas on the world. You can’t. You think everyone should strive to be LIKE YOU! We DON’T. You are a sad sad little man.

Achem, if you want your mind blown take a look at this site and also see the video links.

http://www.chatarea.com/CARPATHUM.m2520179

@ Faith, Jesus is a Christian… as baptized by John the Baptist… and also a Roman citizen paying His taxes. Don’t be blind of your monotheism approach in reading and understanding Jesus. There are so many hokus-pokus in reading words. So, be aware of them, especially those approach of asking you on how Christian are you… where in fact, they are just asking you on how do you live your life but the effect is different from what the words are meant to be.

“Do unto others what you want other do unto you.”

By the way, don’t blame those who buy people but learn about those who kidnapped and sold the people. Wake up on your secret world that you have lived in.

We all have enemies but to me, there are only evil people. In US, they kidnapped people and offer them to their God as human sacrifice . In Europe, they kidnapped people and use them as sex slaves. So, in your area, they kidnapped people to sell them.

Hey, hey.. cool down Faith. You are on fire again. since I am ignorant already and have not yet given a chance to prove what I am saying.. So, I let it be. But I tell you, Jesus is a Christian and a Roman citizen.

Anyone else ever notice Solomon can type perfect english when he chooses too?

Anyway, Yavanna is right. Jesus was born a jew, lived a jew and died a jew. Paul was the Roman agent who tried to destroy the zealot movement of Jesus and when you can’t beat from without, infiltrate and destroy it from within.

The jews sought to kill Paul on more than one occasion and who did he run to for protection? He always went to Rome. No jew in his right mind would have ever requested to be sent before Caesar. Ceasar would have never given audience over a religious dispute among jews. Paul claims over and over to be a jew but he was a Hellenized version of jewish christianity. He invented christianity and people choose his teachings over what the bible reports Jesus taught. Paul’s doctrine is the feel good doctrine and just as Luther later preached, he taught that ‘grace’ will always cover sins no matter how much one sins. Jesus said if a man has been born again it is impossible to sin and anyone who looks back is not fit for his kingdom. Paul was the arch enemy of James the Just and how that point can be missed is outrageous.

The writers of the dead sea scrolls refer to two man who are not named but highly qualified scholars believe according to the complete text regarding these men that the one referred to as “the spouter of lies” is Paul and the one called “that wicked priest” is either Jesus or Ananius.

The zealots and sicari were brutal fanatical religious mafia who carried short dagers they could hide under their robes and kill opponents in a crowd and move on without detection. We know at least Simon was called “the Zealot” we know that Peter was armed with one of these mini swords because he cut off the ear of a soldier. He apparently knew well know to use it. Judus Iscariot is a rearrangement of letters to avoid his true title which was Judus the sicariot, just move the s and i. The ‘ot’ on the end of his name designates he was a leader of such a cult of killers. When you understand what the term “sons of thunder” meant that Jesus used to decribe some of the disciples, you will be on the track to seeing these men in the true light.

That is why it is taking so long to get all the scrolls translated and exposed. I understand from many trustworthy sources that there is still a professional ‘non-disclosure’ agreement forced on anyone who has access to the complete translation. I guess the trouble is how to tell the world they have been lied to from the get-go and also, religion is a trillion dollar a year business and the corrupt people at the top who thrive off of deceiving the masses will go to any lengths to keep the complete lid on this foul pot of lies.

Ha,HA,

Did notice Solomon can actually be lucid in his writings sometimes.

There must be someone coaching, helping him at times, either that, or
he is a split personality.(LOL)

Faith:

Most all religions had there source since antiquity from worshiping the Sun.

The sun (son) the light of the world, the ever-giver of light, Gods only sun (son).He walked on the water, sun rays dance on top of the water, darkness was called “seth”, sun seth (set)

The “halos” of religion is nothing more than the personification of the sun.

It is all astrological. It is all on “Zeitgeist” the movie, here on TDF.

Religion is the greatest story ever told.
That is all it is, a story!! Nothing more, nothing less.
Religion has no substance, only belief!

Solomon, you don’t know what you are talking about…at all! The Essenes who wrote the dead sea scrolls were jews who had left Jerusalem and lived in the wilderness. They thought all other sects of jews had become worldly and forgot the OT laws. They believed all of the OT laws should be enforced and that they would bring about gods kingdom on earth if they lived solely by those laws. YES, THEY DID BAPTISE!!! They believed in ritual baptism and did it several times a day. John the baptist is now believed to have been an Essene as they took in young boys who had lost fathers. John was born to very aged parents so most likely he was raised and taught by them as was Jesus. If you ever get off your butt and research the scrolls concerning the living habits and beliefs of those people you might say something that makes sense. Baptism existed long before christianity. In fact the Egyptians practiced it.

The Essenes had all things in common just as jesus and his merry men did. Jesus was a zealot for the OT laws just as the Essenes.

Also, do you ever notice that all through the NT the pharisees and sadducees are mentioned over and over in a very negative way but Jesus nor anyone else ever mentions the Essenes. They were not a small unknown sect but were very large. They also had members who chose not to live in Qumrum who kept homes in other towns, that is why Jesus and his disciples always had a place to stay. The bible writers knew if they included the Essenes that someone my begin to put two and two together. They never reckoned on anything such as the scrolls hidden that would someday blow the lid off their little secret. Once you read the teachings the Essenes followed, you will see the great similarities to what Jesus taught. Jesus was an initiate of the Essene priesthood. The Essenes also were obsessed with Pharoah Akhenaten of Egypt and the copper scroll was a map to his treasures. The hebrews were hyksos shepherd kings of upper Egypt who were kicked out.

Yes, the jews were taxed by Rome and it was Herods job to make sure they paid. That is why the jewish tax collectors were so hated. You know very little and really need to educate yourself before you spread your nonsense.

Faith, keep on that track and you will be amazed.

Dear Customer,
Greetings from Amazon.co.uk.
We regret to inform you that your order will take longer to fulfill than originally estimated. Our supplier has notified us that there is a delay obtaining stock for the following items you ordered on January 05 2010.
Solomon S. Buyco “A Briefer History of BS”

We are awaiting a revised estimate from our supplier, and will email you as soon as we receive this information.
If you would prefer to cancel the item, tough.
Thank you for shopping at Amazon.co.uk, we hope to see you again.
Please note: This e-mail was sent from a notification-only address that
cannot accept incoming e-mail. Please do not reply to this message.
Sincerely,
Customer Service Department
Amazon.co.uk

Thomas Payne was right. Charles B is extremely cruel, hateful and mean, it is easy to see that he is a Christian. His god is the demon that advocated bashing babies against rocks and throwing sex slaves to the rape gangs to be raped to death. Religion is government protected hate groups and nothing more. When the governments of the world stop pandering to theses hate mongers then there will be peace on Earth but not before. The religion myth no longer has any place in the world except in the fiction section of the library. I am so glad that atheism and agnosticism is growing at a rate 10 times as fast as religion, that means there is hope for the future. Hope that has been missing from humanity for 2000 years, the hope that ancient Greeks like Plato and Aristotle and Hippocrates had begun to cultivate and Christianity extinguished in its infancy.

So the whole Temple Mount issue is about one cult of polytheistic idolators against another cult of polytheistic idolators.

Yes both Judaism and Islam (and Christianity I might add) are polytheistic, and idolatrous. They worship books (that is a collection of words) as Gods, just as they worship their founders. Moses is a God, as is Muhammad, and of course Christians already acknowledge their belief of Jesus as a God. And Abraham is a God to them all.

And of course they worship geographical locations – unfortunately sometimes the very same piece of Earth. So in their blind denial of their own idolatory, they rain Hell on each other in order to possess their God.

The Yahweh of the Temple of Solomon died with the building’s destruction. So, please, all you religious Jews, make up your minds – either that Yahweh was a limited, vulnerable, tribal God, who has been lost to the mists of time along with Solomon’s temple and the priests, or he is the universal God or Divine principle also known as Brahma and Gott and Jumala and the Wandjina Spirit, in which case you have no monopoly on Him, and neither can any particular chunk of real estate.

Ps and just what stance do I take of this duality ?

Answer: Neither ( Nor) I am choosing to be Led by the Spirit, Intuition whatever one wishes to name it. As I try my best to connect and unconnect the knowledge that I learn from my studies.

Just thought you might be curious.

Achems,

Thank you for such a warm greeting.See the spice that you are I guess you could officially be called the Greeter on this forum :-)

Its so late and I am tired ,too tired for conversing now but if you are not tired please do open the dialogue.
Perhaps tell me your stance and level you are at.You are correct that I am fairly new.
My voyage started when I went on a serious voyage to find my God and handed the Helm over to his watch.I faithfully attended Church then when I found they did not match up to the teachings and they had it set up so one can’t. I quickly could see flags that they are all just institutions and because I was taught on a street level and schooled, marketing.I could see the phsycological sales pitch and the slave mentality that they are teaching. And what I see being taught is the impossibility to reach the Christian level that they deem desirable. You cannot win. Its set up like the casino. Only certain ones can win a percentage
.All the others are placed in position to lose and fund the Rich Casino.

I then left and went on my Journey and have traveled and visited many lands since then. to name a few.
Mind Matrix, essenes,Eygpt,Blatsavy, Saint Germain, Rosicrusions,Atlanteans, I believe alll the Esoteric ones,’The Sons of One, Greek and Eygtian Mythology, Zacharia Sitchens, Edgar Casey. The Urantia book etc……

What I am hoping to do here is get a deeper and better understanding of the places i have travelled and come out with a stronger sense of my own. I am great at connecting But I see from what I read above that some of yous have a better understanding and approaches from another angle are always a better fit.
I opologize I cannot keep my eyes open. I leave the floor to you or someone else.

Thanks again for the warm greeting I will check back here when I awake.

Connie

Achems,

Yeah You do understand, Thanks for sharing. You probably know at this time I feel confused yet I feel like its ok to be confused on this type of journey with no answers but yet seeking every tid bit I can to form a complete thought.

I left out the science road in my last posting.

There is something though that has been a solid rock that I have been able to break thru barriers with and that is a belief in a higher existance but that that entity is within us. The Godself in Us. That we have a choice which mindframe to use.
I am not trying to sell something but I do have a lifetime subscription to mindreality.com and It seeems to fit exactly what I believe as the higher power thru US and it fits with Science.
Its more like this. That the consciousness of God is in Us and all the teachings from the bible are correct, but not to be interpreted in the way the churches have taught. There is the real lie. When the truth is twisted thats when there is real confusion. Before you can have confusion you have to take the truth and bend it. Same as taking pure light but cutting it into fractals and resulting in only pieces of truth that are now distorted.

I keep looking around for the evidence that explains what I find so useful I have not yet. But I think the teachings of Jesus were real but was meant in a whole different light and Man twisted it into another whole meaning for control and self usage.

The same Laws that Jesus taught fit with the laws of Science and the ways of the magician. But They are not what the religions taught.

I have been watching the growth in mine and my fiances life by using the Conscious mind and knowing that we create around us by what we think and if you read the bible and apply its teachings by shedding the old connotations it fits like the missing puzzle.

One of the biggest wrongs the churches have done was to teach the laws by way of slavery and that we cannot count on the Christ in Us. WHile they say in one breath we are free they do another. And make laws that apply to the physicality of our life and not the spirit. If you consider our real world is the spirit world and ignore what appears to be reality in that sense then the world as we see and believe then changes the physicality around Us thus we create our own world. We become the creator. I guess this is Alchemy also.

But it is working for us in leaps and bounds. Somewhere there must of been a group of people that knew and practiced this Magitional Attribute Of the shared creatorship with the Christ.
I have had one after another success in my song writing also since I haveapplied this to my life.

WE constantly have been bringing things into our life and changes by way of this thinking.

I just watched something recently that was talking about our black matter I think they described it, And about why they think the universe is exelerating instead of slowing down and what they theorize is something about another reality within our reality which is to me like another dimension Another Plane. I can feel this being so true. I think time space is all present past present future is all in one.

Anyway, I wish I had the mind that could absorb so much and really comprehend everything . Instead I am one who learns by touch and feel.But what my mind is good at and that is connecting. Connecting the dots to feel if its of truth, But then I need the mind to separate things enough to explain them. Its really Quite exausting frankly to have to go thru all the info by way of feel to examinate it and meditate on it.

Well, Thats a book in itself I hope you can pick out the jest of what I am thinking and where I am.

Thanks for the invite , I will try to find the other disscussion.

Connie

Charles B. are you out of your mind…. the video about Sinai shows pictures with a cloud shadow over the top of the mountain, and call it “blackened by god’s visit several thousand years ago”. Six pictures taken with some kind of cloud shadow over the top of the mountain is no more convincing than one, especially when the ‘blackened’ area keeps changing shape.

This is religious material, not scientific material. Period.