The Muslim Jesus

The Muslim JesusA documentary about the Islamic Jesus – a man born of a virgin, and a man who performed miracles, but there was no crucifixion and no resurrection.

Yet there is a Second Coming, when he shall descend in the clouds as a Muslim to destroy the Jews and 'the swine'.

The Muslim Jesus uses the Qur'an and other Islamic texts to explore the differing ways in which Christian and Muslim faiths both acknowledge Jesus.

Scholars, teachers, parents, rappers, poets and historians come together for the one hour special narrated by Melvin Bragg.

The differences between the Qur'an and Bible’s portrayal of Jesus are explored in detail, from the role of Mary and his death and resurrection, to the coming of the Anti-Christ.

Watch the full documentary now

1.5k
7.63
12345678910
Ratings: 7.63/10 from 19 users.

More great documentaries

Comments and User Reviews

  • rebelliuss

    very interesting.... basically the same religion but with slightly different versions of history..
    one question.. if jesus is god,, why would he ask why god had forsaken him when he was on the cross?..

  • mab

    Jesus was quoting Psalm 22. Read the entire psalm and see how it developes.

  • Joseph

    The Muslim Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. He name is Issa son of Mary sister of Aaron who lived 1500 years before Mohammad.

    The Muslim Issa is only a prophet and a teacher who taught his followers ethical teachings only.

    When Jesus died on the cross he said it is finished. There is nothing a man can now do to receive eternal life but believe in the finished work of Jesus.

    The Bibical Jesus said that if a man really wants to do the work of God he must believe in the one he sent i.e. Jesus

    The Muslim will naturally say that his version of Jesus is the correct one, the one that was written down six centuries after the death and resurrection of Jesus given in the New Testament.

    I prefer the original version.

  • NameRequired

    Right, before I say anything, I am an atheist stroke agnostic depending on the day (So feel free to ignore or ridicule what am about to write in any given way, just wanted to say something is all).. Right anywhose i have never heard this version of jesus before. I thought it was quite interesting to say the least. In away I do think this is a more valid version just because the Bible we have nowadays is not in its original form, it has been tampered with, things added, things removed and so on e.g. I am sure everyone by now knows how jesus story in the Bible lines almost exactly with stories of certain pagan gods, like the whole easter thing with the eygptian god osiris... As far as I am aware, this hasnt happened to the quran. But either way I dont think it matters. The truth if there was any has long been lost when it comes to religion, in my opinion religion nowadays has basically been reduced to a bunch of ppl fumbling around in the dark looking for something that isnt there...

    rebelliuss said something very interesting i thought, If jesus was God then why would he say why have you forsaken me to himself.... Doesnt make much sense. However, am going to do something bad and mix the christian and muslim version together and say what if the jesus on the cross was not the real jesus but judas made to look like jesus like the documentary says, then, who was Judas praying to? surely it wasnt the real God, to me it sounds like Judas... well draw ur own conclusions... As a side note maybe if this is the case, then clearly there is something to be learned here, jesus got saved literally before he died by the real God, and judas didnt, maybe by the guy going around making all kinds of promises that he cant and has no intention of keeping aka con-artist.... Anyways so maybe God never lets any of his own die (maybe death here doesnt even have to mean a physical death, maybe it could mean like death of the soul) is what is to be learned and the other one doesnt really care... Maybe it was just an illustration of how employees/x-employees are treated when things get tough, some company's ditch you and let you take the blame(scape-goat), some make ur pension go bye bye while maybe there is some out there that values its employees and doesnt do any of the above...

    Right end of nonsensical rumbling...

  • http://www.essenceofdesignus.com Jonathan Roseland

    I kind of feel like this is a futile subject. Both Muslims & Christians have holly scriptures that contradict each others accounts of Jesus.

    Neither side is going to be convinced without abandoning their faith...

  • KAne Or able

    People really believe this stuff? Either religion seems a bit of a silly story to me. None of it seems to make any sense, then or now. It's almost funny to watch all of these grown ups who otherwise seem to have there heads on there shoulders go on about it. Like there was once this amazing moment in time when everyone saw the light and realized the answer.

  • Yavanna

    Kane - it's really sad isn't it. But 2 thirds of the planet believe some variation of this hogwash.

  • Bruno

    Does anybody actually believe Jesus said anything that appears in the Bible ? And, these guys who keep quoting biblical nonsense to prove their point about the bible are too much. Talk about a circular proof.

  • Ronnie

    Well very interesting, I see people saying they prefer "the original version" I think it would be Osiris the son God, who was born a version birth died on the cross and raised from the dead 3 days later... So its pretty safe to say that most religion is just a knock off of the one that came before it, including Christianity.

  • Joseph

    Osiris was a mythological character. Greco-Roman religion is based on myths and legends. There is no such thing as a Zeus or other gods of the Greek pantheon.

    Today how many people believe in the greek roman pantheon!!!!

    on the other hand Jesus was a historical character of flesh, blood and bones born during the reign of Ceaser Augustus and began his ministry in the reign of Tiberius died under Pontus Pilate.

    On atheists and agnostics the bible says 'claiming to be wise they have become fools'

  • Achems Razor

    All religion is based on, and from antiquity, it is all Astrological, worshiping the Sun. Gods Sun (Son) Who walks on water, the Sun rays dance, walk on the water.

    There is no proof that there was a historical person as Jesus, only what was written as hearsay.

    Ingesting of to many magic mushrooms, namely, Psilocybin, and Amanita Muscaria. the fly agaric, the sacred weeds. would give anybody religious epiphanies!

  • BBC

    Achems,

    Your first comment is correct about religions coming from antiquity and worshipping sun gods, or fertility gods. This is especially true for the Near East religions of old. The people in the Bible are descendants of these ancient Near East religions.

    However, the God of the Bible always makes a distinction of Himself as compared to other gods. He is constantly reminding His people that He is different then the gods the people have created for themselves. The God of the Bible specifically tells His people that He is against astrology, sorcery , and divination (summoning demons).

    When it comes to New Testament accounts, the actual Church had not been coruppted by money hungry, ego-tistical control freaks till around the 400 AD's. If you look at the history of the Church they were actually killed by the Romans for not bowing to Caesar (Caesar worship)for almost 300 years. This first 300 years or so AD is when the Church grew significantly, which eventually led to Constantine catching wind of this idea of one state religion which eventually led to a whole lot of cultural Christians.

    The authors of the Old and New Testament Scriptures wrote to their audiences in ways that the people of their time would understand. The people in those days were a farming culture, nomadic, etc. Therefore we have to be familiar with the cultures the authors were writing too, to shed better light on the letters. The initial Bible was put together around the 300's in latin (Latin Vulgate). Before corruption and greed had taken over.

    The stories of Jesus were first given by eye witness accounts (His followers). There are early Church fathers who knew first hand John the apostle.

    In the New Testament they tell of the apostles abandonning Jesus when He is arrested, His right hand man even denies knowing Jesus. When Jesus dies the apostles eventually all go into hiding. When the resurrection of Jesus occurs all these scared, cowards who were once hiding start preaching about Jesus with zeal. Something amazing must have happened to them, or they found some crystal meth, hahaha.

    I have heard of archeological evidence found showing that Pontius Pilate actually did exist, and Roman seal on a tomb because the Jews thought Jesus' apostles would come steal His body to say He was resurrected. The Romans placed armed guards at the tomb, whose penalty would be death for sleeping on the job. I have not personally seen this archeological evidence, and it could very well be Christian propaganda.

    Zeitgeist is good, but its bias. Just like everyone on the internet. hahaha

  • Hardy

    @Archems - Yes, psilocybin even gives normal people religious epiphanies. I can say that from experience.

    While on the trip I had the feeling I was very close to some superior, celestial being. It was giving me ideas I had never had before, showed me colors I never saw before and brought be beer through materializing itself as Mexican waitresses.

    I could have written a book twenty times better than the bible in that state of mind.

    P.S.: I encourage everyone with a stable (!) state of mind to try them (in Holland). It really does change your view on the world around you.

  • Achems Razor

    @ Hardy:

    I do not condone anyone ingesting any form of drugs.
    I am entering this as information purposes only.

    If you or anyone else would like more info. on Religion and mushrooms,
    than Google= "Amanita Muscaria Mushrooms and Religion-Research Page"

    I do not think I am stable enough to partake of psilocybin (LOL)

    :D

  • mnganga

    i havent watched this and i dont think i will,coz i know ts the same going in circles,People an chose to call their myths real or whatever.I have listened to some pastors who use religion with motivation talk and i think its good,but i fear oz some of them have noticed feelings of hopelessness and they use it to de-motivate their followers to commit evils.Lastly when people learn to think for themselves they do not need teachers

  • Achems Razor

    @ BBC:

    There occurs no contemporaneous or contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus.

    The whole Christianity religion is based on hearsay.

    If you want more info. Google= "Did a historical Jesus exist".
    And click on "Did Jesus exist?"

  • mnganga

    To you the religionist the so called believers,would it matter wheather people claim to believe in the stories of jesus,mohamed,krishna,rwada magere etc.This sleeping God,what would be its priority,stories or deeds?people have killed one another,they are busy converting each other,but behind all the rhetoric,rites,rituals isnt the message the same?the message of love,self respect,self control.If Mohammed or Jesus came back on earth,their respective followers would conspire to kill them and both jesus and mohammed would seek protection from the atheist.I am an atheist but am more in line with the teachings of jesus than church/mosque going,bornagains/devotees.Am not painting myself as an "angel"i have my share of weaknessess,i repeat mistakes,sometimes i tell myself i have given up some bad behaviour and after a while i backslide,hoping tomorrow i will have more power to change my behaviour,i dont strive for self respect because am looiking for reward or fear retribution,i just strive to improve my self esteem.Listen to a christian when he does good deeds he does it because he thinks he is pleasing God,when he does bad things he blames lucifer/satan.Jesus and Mohammed if you intend to come back on earth call me or other like minded ppo we will sort your security.

  • BBC

    Achems,

    These ancient documents in the Bible that have been written we call hearsay. Yet when it comes to other ancient documents such as Plato, Homer, etc.. Why do we not scrutinize these documents the way we scrutinize Bible documents? Jews and Christians have spent countless parts of their lives copying these ancient documents, and studying them. There are more copies of these documents then any other ancient document written in history. More copies with shorter time span between copies and originals then any other historical document. Why do we still dispute the authenticity of these writings?

    mnganga,

    When it comes to Christians who do good works so that they may be saved; they can not be saved according to the Bible teachings. Works do not save a person. The Christian is supposed to be saved by faith and trust in God. The works these Christians do is supposed to be done because the relationship they have with God. Not doing works to have relationship with God. This is the definition of a born again. Doing things to obtain salvation is religious, most religious people are a bunch of hypocrites. That is why we see religion the way we see it, as a bunch of rules taught by men which causes ware and strife.

  • Achems Razor

    @ BBC:

    Why, you say?

    It is very simple! Religious people will believe now, and maybe question later.

    Non-Religious people will question now, and maybe, believe later.

  • BBC

    I think religious people, and non-religious people are all the same. I think they all come to believe the same also. There are religious people who do not believe and eventually they have an experience that leads them to believe. And there are non-religious people, who themselves have an experience and eventually believe. Then you have religious and non-religious who do not believe ever.

    I think if there is true and false, then not all things can be true. I think if a person seeks truth with an open mind he/she will eventually find it, if that person truly seeks it. I think most people's presuppositions govern their search for the truth. I think most people seek the answers they want to find. Because no one really enjoys making change in their lives no matter if they are small or big changes. Most humans do not enjoy being uncomfortable.

    "If it ain't broke don't fix it." This attitude keeps many of us just living day to day, the same old routine. Then I look at the generation of WWI and WWII. I look at how those men and women sacrificed their lives for Our freedom (the world), and wonder what I am doing with my life that is worthy of another man's death. I do not think many people consider the freedoms we have especially those of us in North America where I live.

    It just makes me ask questions, and ponder things. sorry for rambling

  • Achems Razor

    @ BBC:

    That was well said!

  • rebelliuss

    Tao said it best.."there is more than one road to enlightenment" and every individual must find their own..;o)

  • LifeQuest

    I noticed that the origins of the Bible has come into question. For those interested, check out the documentary, "Who Wrote The Bible?" done by an academic theologian. Good stuff! :-)

  • Hardy

    @Archems:
    "I do not condone anyone ingesting any form of drugs."
    Never assumed you did :-D

  • human

    EVERYTHING is either a story passed by generations of storytelling or customs/traditions. Seriously, none of us will ever know the truth because none of us were there to witness any of these “religions”. I just think we all should take the best out of every religion in order to optimize the ultimate way of living without getting politically caught up in religion. Hence, religion is just a tool (guidance) just like everything else in life (parents, government, school, and so forth); therefore learn from it by balancing the good from the bad. Please do not make a religion as a tool to create hatred or separation!

    Thank you!

  • BBC

    Now that i finished watching the doc,

    According to Jewish culture at the time of Mary; the Jews would have stoned her to death. Being a woman with no husband and having a child she would have been killed even before she gave birth.

    The Jews were waiting for the Messiah. If Jesus spoke as a baby they would have recognized Jesus as the Messiah. Jews are still awaiting their Messiah to this very day. So it is obvious that Jesus never spoke as a baby.

    One further thought,

    If there is such a thing as truth. There can only be one truth. All good liars know that the best way to convince people of the lie is to tell half the truth.

    For instance, he/she was right about this or that... what he/she said about this or that was true... Therefore everything he/she said must be true.

    The guy at the end made a good comment which he says is from the Qur'an. "People need to examine their world views". Because it would make sense that there can only be one truth.

  • rpalmer

    John… an eye witness to Jesus' word, life and death wrote:

    John 14:6
    Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

  • gallus

    I suspect...nay, am certain, that both sides would, when it comes to the crunch, agree to kill each other over it.
    Gods always behave like the people that invented them.
    God B.less

  • lallu

    Very well said 'gallus'. What really upsets me is that all these religious people think they know it all.

  • Superbuggg

    All these Peeps speak with the premise that Jesus actually existed! It's a huge debate in itself... and you can guess that I come down firmly on the side of the story of Jesus, or Issa,as being recycled mumbo-jumbo!

    No comparison of Issa with Jesus can happen as the Geezer is a phantom!

    These puffed-up, arrogant and deluded Muslim interviewees can't even sound-resonate in-concert - each choosing a different pronunciation or the word 'Koran' - wankers!

    'Forgive my condescension toward these losers... they're basically forgetting that we're all a wee spark of the 'all' and currently on planet Earth, there's about seven billion ways of interpreting 'God'!

  • Charles B.

    Wow! Can't believe I compulsively read ever word of every comment on this thread. Very interesting. I'll get back to this one.

    BBC: You're sharp.

    gallus: Lots of comments by lots of scoffers but yours was the one that made me pity you the most. May God never "B. less", but forever grow in more honor and glory always, if in no other place than my humble heart that loves Him so dearly.

  • Charles B.

    P.S.

    rebelliuss (comment number one): Jesus said "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" on the cross not because he wasn't Divine, but because it was the first time in all of history past or present or future that He was separated spiritually from God the Father.

    When He took the sins of all the world upon Himself, it was the Father's rightous duty to turn His back on His Son and Jesus felt what we feel when sin separates us from God's presence and favor.

    It's a complicated thought process, but it was the very purpose for which Jesus came and it was the means by which we received redemption from sin as Jesus became "sin" for us on the cross. "Rebelliuss" Let's hope you will not always be a "rebel" in the eyes of God.

    Peace.

  • gallus

    @ Charles. i DONT ASK OR WANT YOUR PITY.....and the last thing i'd want would be the morality your evil monster issues. What a blood thirsty Beast. TO HELL WITH GOD!

  • Charles B.

    gallus: There is usually a very good "reason" when I feel compassion for someone. All I feel is greif and sadness for you now. Why did you get sooooo angry? I won't post to you any more. I appologize for upsetting you.

    Sincerely,

    Charles B.

  • gallus

    Charles B. I dont give a monkey's turd what you feel. You're innanities are pitiful and are typical of the theistic mind. My telling you what i think of your imaginary Fiend does not imply anger but a decision to disregard the priveleging that theism has taken for granted for far too long. You rationalize the indefencible horrors of the Evil Book and its barbaric authors all you like, but how about keeping it to yourself....and especially away from defenceless children.

  • rebelliuss

    charles.. it seems you have a different opinion than the christians have in the programme, where they said that jesus was not merely the son of god but "god himself" in human form.. it seems most religions just interpret the facts to suit their beliefs and not the other way round.
    i don't condemn anyone for believing in a higher entity because it must be nice to be able to blame something in the sky for everything, like, "It's all in his plan" and "god works in mysterious ways" and never really have to take responsiblity for ones actions "god told me to do it", and it's a good way to keep people in check, " be good or you're going to hell" I truly think that most really religious people would go homicidal or suicidal if they found difinitive proof of no god, because life just wouldn't make any sense to them, it would seem meaningless, a concept that is probably more scary than hell itself. so i understand the need for ur faith, but just as i have no right to mock or insult ur what i consider superstitious beliefs, that have about the same proof as any of the old polytheist religions, hearsay and some old books, no person in this world has the right to condemn me to hell, pity me, or KILL me for mine... Peace.. and i hope for your sake that there is a merciful god.. but i'm not holding my breath..

  • BBC

    @rebellius,

    "and it’s a good way to keep people in check, ” be good or you’re going to hell”"

    No one can be truly good, that is the point of the 10 commandments. All people when they look at the 10 commandments realize that they fall short. You break one you might as well break them all.

    The 10 commandments, should humble people enough to lead them to Jesus. Because being good does not keep people from going to hell. Because they will not be perfect in this life. They need Jesus. He bore the punishment that we deserve, and He stands before God for us. He is our mediator. I do not think Charles was condemning anyone to hell.

    Jesus Himself did not come to condemn people, but to bring them life, and life to the fullest. I think Charles relating the grief he felt. If i had a son who rejected my love for him, it would grieve me.

  • gallus

    "if i had a son who rejected my love for him, it would grieve me"
    Indeed, it would grieve most parents, but how many would condemn that son to an infinity of pain and suffering for a finite crime?....oops, thats right, God would...and appaerently does. Bastard.
    As much for any christian i know, fortunately there is no hell to go to.

  • Charles B.

    Rebellius:
    You asked:

    "It seems you have a different opinion than the christians have in the programme, where they said that jesus was not merely the son of god but “god himself” in human form.. it seems most religions just interpret the facts to suit their beliefs and not the other way round."

    The incarnation of Jesus Christ can be seen in more than one way, but yes, Jesus was fully God but also fully human. Some Christians believe that there is no "Trinity" meaning God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, but one God that just switches "roles". I don't think that's very Biblical. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are essentially all part of the one Triune God united in purpose and eternal nature, but indeed three separate entities.

    Jesus was 100% God and 100% human at that time. I can just barely understand the paradox, let alone explain it.

    I've been so busy, I haven't got to watch this doc yet, but it's on my agenda. The Muslims shouldn't be consulted for historical Biblical truths, including who Jesus was/is.

    BBC is correct. I would hate to be a "rebel" myself in the eyes of God so I was lamenting a little bit over your choice of penname. Can you tell me why you chose "rebellius" as your penname? Perhaps I'm reading too much into it.

  • rebelliuss

    @BBC and Charles.. i appreciate you trying to explain your beliefs to me, but to be honest none what any of you said made any real sense to me, but that's also part of my earlier point, all that really matters is that it makes sense to you, and that it gives you purpose and meaning, which i think is all anyone really wants, so cudos to you guys for finding your guiding light. I'm sorry if it sounded like i was saying that Charles had condemned me to hell personally, but i was just talking in general terms.. the truth is i grew up around a lot of religious people from different faiths, and the theoretical and practical practice of all these faiths were in 95% of the cases worlds apart. the point is people will always interpret things to fit their cultural beliefs, otherwise why would there be so many different variations of all these religions, because there is not only one truth, there is only your personal truth.
    As for your question... the way i see it... If you act like a sheep, you'll get snatched by the wolf, hence the name.
    again i wish you both nothing but peace and contentment in both life and whatever happens after... ;o)

  • Epicurus

    lol you guys are still trying to preach your delusions to other people. silly christians. why would you possibly admit to people outside your delusional little circle that you believe in that nonsense?

    charles LOL 100% plus 100% eh...lol funny guy. i swear you just make all this stuff up.

  • DeathSSghosT

    from what i have read from most peoples comments, it seems like they have missed the point. we need to find out where we are all the same and respect how we are different.
    i think its funny that most people still talk about jesus and all his kind acts. its not to say that those arent important but i think that in both christiam and muslim representations of jesus, we need to take a second look. he didnt just tell us about being kind to one another, he told us that everyone should stand up and fight injustice wherever it may be. at any time during his torture, he could have given in to the romans, but he stood up. he kicked those jews out of the temple for usury, which ladies and gentlemen, is loaning money at interest.
    i dont know, maybe i got a different message from the bible than most. i didnt go to church, i read the bible myself and what i got out of it was jesus was a revolutionary, a man that stood up to the evil establishment, and was kind to those that couldnt help themselves

  • Will

    What are you trying to accomplish?

    These discussions are always the same, and nothing ever gets accomplished. You really think that Charles B. and BBC are gonna read someone's comment and think "Holy poop! That atheist is totally right! I've been wasting my life on this religious nonsense!"

    Never gonna happen... Likewise, if Charles and BBC think that some atheist in one of these insane broken record, echo chamber arguments is gonna all of a sudden get "Saved" as a result of something they said then they're even crazier than I thought.

    Religious folk; Your arguments are specious, flawed and invalid. They are not logical, they never will be no matter how clever you get because in order for there to be a rational argument for the existence of God it would need to be something we can "know", for sure, and that means that it's no longer faith which entirely defeats the purpose. So, the best thing you can possibly say is "I believe God exists" and leave it at that. Quit acting like this is something you can prove and that anyone who doesn't believe the same as you is an idiot.

    Atheists; You really think you're going to bully these guys into dropping their faith? You think deriding them, insulting them and doing your best to make them feel foolish is going to win them to your side? I agree almost entirely with much of what Maher and Hitchens and Dawkins have to say, but if you're interested in real atheists who can discuss the issue without being offensive and combative try reading some Harry Frankfurt or something.

    And you know what the worst thing is? It's the same goddam conversation, every time, with almost the same participants almost every time. It's like frickin' Ground-Hog day in here.

  • Superbuggg

    Was the phantom 'Hesus Khrisna' not contrived by Constantine's indecisive and 'holy' rabble?

    Do any interested parties in this thread think it's at all possible that the person Jesus Christ never existed, and that his story is recycled 'Joseph' with a whisper of Dionysus, Mithras, Ahura Mazda et.al. thrown in?

    That's a reciprocal question... I would dearly like to hear opinion - ahead of some of the above 'off topic' quibbling!

  • Charles B.

    Superbuggg: I would dearrrly like to fffind some suppper sppray to rrrid myself of your suppper stupppidity!

  • Epicurus

    @superbuggg, i have absolutely no reason to believe this person Jesus ever existed. Much like Pythagoras he could be a made up figure head by the group as a means to solidify their position. and using past myths would be an easy way to do that.

    Not to mention the city of Nazareth wasnt around when the supposed man was alive, so Jesus of Nazareth is just ridiculous.

  • Achems Razor

    Common @ Charles B:

    @ Superbuggg: asked a straight forward question, one that I have been asking for a long time. Give us substantiated proof that a person named the big JC. even existed.

  • Superbuggg

    Dang right!

  • rebelliuss

    @will... well said..;o)

  • Achems Razor

    So @ Will has a point, so what.

    At least keeps both sides sharp, and there is new things to learn.
    Why just today, learned they drilled a hole in Siberia into hell itself,

    Listen to the sounds of hell...google-"drilled into hell"

  • Charles B.

    Buggg: Your question is out rightly demoniacally inspired. The fire of Christianity was burning quite brightly and accurately long before Constantine even lived. Jesus was the pillar of the faith long before it was "vogue" to be Christian.

    Mr. Overy: I thought you were smarter than that! Oh, you are. You refuse to believe because you refuse to believe. It's your hard-heartedness not your mind that gets in your way of just plain logic sometimes.

    If you must know, Jesus was called a Nazarene by demons, Jews, by his own disciples, by angels, and by himself.

    Yeah, 2000 years after the fact you say there wasn't even a town called "Nazareth" at his time. Wouldn't the people living at that time and then writing about it know a little bit better than you? Time and time again the Bible has proved to be EXTREMELY accurate with that kind of geographical information.

    Mr. Razor: I'm a bit surprised at you also, but you are the only one of the three that I actually think "fair" in any sense of the word, so I will answer your question the best I can and give you the benefit of the doubt.

    When did people like the Buggg and Mr. Overy start saying there wasn't even a person called Jesus, who was the Christ? Relatively recently I'm sure. Those that hated Jesus back when they could look him in the eye were just as hard-hearted as the Buggg and Mr. Overy, but didn't have the luxury of saying he never existed. In fact, no one claimed that in the early centuries after his life, death and resurrection that I know of. They may have tried to disbelieve and/or change the person of Jesus like the Muslims do, but they didn't say he never lived!

    Perhaps the greatest testament that Jesus lived was the changed lives of His followers, most of whom died gruesome deaths themselves without ever recanting. People die for what they believe in, but no one dies for things they know to be a lie. Jesus appeared to many hundreds after his resurrection. Many thousands gave their lives in the early Church, killed in terrible ways. Yep. I'd die for some stupid totally made up belief that I knew wasn't true, wouldn't you?

    The disciples were beaten, killed, persecuted, scoffed at and spit upon. They were poor monetarily, overworked, and unappreciated. They had absolutely nothing to gain from their trials if this had been a false religion that they themselves had made up. I believe them because when one person give his life for what he says was true, he might be a fluke, but when hundreds if not thousands do it, it's most likely for truth. Jesus not only lived, but died as the Bible says he did, and for the reason it says he did, and was resurrected on the third day, just like it says he was.

    Unfortunately, 2000 years later, we have enough time in between the era of Jesus and now that Buggg-brained scoffers now have the freedom to say that Jesus never lived, died, and was resurrected. Back then, even if they didn't believe they didn't have that luxury.

    P.S. No more time to reply until after Sunday, most likely.

    Cheers!

  • Charles B.

    Buggg, Razor and Epic: Your reply got caught in the "moderation" loop again! ;-) Check back later for your reply if it passes "moderation". No time to comment until after my Sunday most likely.

    Cheers!

  • Superbuggg

    ...my point is, it matters not whether Issa/Christ's first miracle was the ability to speak from birth or turning water to wine 30 years later... the 'Sandaled One' may well not have existed at all - the ambiguity in the tales evaporates!

  • Charles B.

    Superbugg: It's just plain not logical that Jesus didn't exist as all. It's far more likely that he was a real person and did and experienced precisely what is recorded in the Bible. Have you even considered THAT possibility?

    I was a bit irritated earlier and thought your question not very well thought out, but I'm softening a bit and will give you the benefit of the doubt; perhaps you just don't understand. You're speaking 2000 years removed from the facts. Stop guessing. Let me ask you this, "Why don't you believe Jesus was a real person?" What's the motive of your heart? Are you religious at all in any way? Just curious. Knowing that might help me understand where your mind is at.

    Peace.

  • Superbuggg

    Those are fair questions... I am a heathen! No religious education whatsoever. Informed myself as an adult. If it doesn't upset anyones sensibilities, I strongly believe in what many call 'Karma' - it's a what-goes-around comes-around world! Endorsing the cause-and-effectness of spooky ol' Karma, as I just did, means I also believe in reincarnation. But like Pythagoras or Dick Dawkins, I'm open to being proved wholly wrong!

    Charles B. makes a good point that some Atheists evangelise Atheism as zealously as do some religious folk! But unlike other don't-mention-at-a-party subjects like the Holocaust, child vaccination, or 9/11, squabbles over different interpretations of some rotting old books more often spills blood!

    From my observation, most faith seems to be blind, and whatever religion it was our parents shoved down our throats seems to be the crutch many intelligent people defer to later in life.

    Re: Issa/Christ... it's no proof, but just down the road in the British Library they have the Sinai Bible, and a collection of other old books. I've been to see them. The Sinaiticus is the oldest known copy of the bible-compilation in it's complete form, and is from around the year 370. In itself, it's no witness to Christ, but includes the 'gospels' which are the real alleged 'witness' books - not the entire bible itself, as a forum member implied above. It is however, now known by scholars that all four so-called 'gospels' are a re-write of one of them - Mark. And bogus addendums have swelled 'Luke' by 10,000 words in modern renditions of the bible, and thus includes the words of MEN - lot's of 'em!

  • Superbuggg

    Charles B. - It seems likely you've not heard of the stuff of which I speak. At least I've alluded to 'scholars' as agreeing on this new-ish stuff of which you're (politely) ignorant... you however, simply reaffirm your singular opinion.

    Truly, check it out... there's a whole body of knowledge that healthily and skeptically refutes a corporeal J.C.

    And of course, if Christ's story is phantasmagoria, so must be Issa's!

    I'm not saying these thing to wind anyone up!

    Peace too!

  • gallus

    @Charles B.

    You say:

    'It’s just plain not logical that Jesus didn’t exist as all'.

    'If you must know, Jesus was called a Nazarene by demons, Jews, by his own disciples, by angels, and by himself.'

    'Wouldn’t the people living at that time and then writing about it know a little bit better than you?'

    If that sort of logic is good enough then so are the sayings and doings of Mohammed...... and any number of other fables of old. Or does that logic only pertain to your God?

    Its precisely that kind of argument that compels a doubter into fully-fledged atheism.
    If what someone in the bible says is to be 'gospel' then why are you not killing those who work on the Sabbath. This edict carries the penalty of your own death for non-compliance. Or the forced marriage of virgins who are raped, to her assailant. The morality of your God is suspisciously like the bronze-age (and ignorant) culture that created him. But do tell, by what authority do you refuse to obey your Gods' commands?

  • Charles B.

    Man! I can't find the thread where somebody was talking about the suffering Messiah. I need that info for this Sunday as half a dozen Muslims are comming to church this weekend.

    BBC: Do you have any insight into the O.T. Jesus prophecies of the "Suffering Messiah" as reason for the cross not being accidental to the Christian faith, but part of the eternal plan of God. It's central to Christians, but not to Muslims that think that we changed the life of Christ to fit our own desires of building a religion around him.

    Buggg: I'll check out the Sinaih Bible later.

    Gallus: I believe that Mohummand was a real person! The places and facts are probably pretty accurate too, but the message is what I disagree with. You're jumping to assumptions that I didn't believe Mohammand was a real person or something. Anyway, New Testament verses Old Testament rules is a huge conversation. No time today.

    BBC or others: I'm rushing today, but will check back later if you have info that can help me this sunday for my message.

    Sincerely,

    Charles B.

  • Epicurean_Logic

    The muslim's were in a unique historiacl position; that of coming after the jews and christians. After seeing the control/power element of their predecessors religion they had the advantage of hindsight and used it to the full. Ideas that weakened their mentors message were removed or ammended and further control/power elements were added.

    Discuss.

  • eireannach666

    @Epicurean_Logic
    Remind you of anyother religions? They all seem to pick and choose what stays to establish that control/power your talking about.I mean for instance, how many times has the christian bible been chopped up and redone to get max effectiveness out of what they had for control/ power. The jews etc. You see it over and over again. Even today , you can take 1 holy book to 1 clergyman and than to another fromm the same church,mosque or whatever ( depending on the book you choose.) read a few scriptures and ask each clergyman to explain the meaning to you , and 9 out of ten times you'll get two differant interpretations.Thats one of the problems I have w/ religion, ( Well besides the fact that there is no god.) but you get what I mean.Religion is just a way of using superstition to CONTROL simpleminded people to gain POWER and keep people in check.

  • Epicurean_Logic

    @eireannach666

    yep, nothing emerges fully formed and all ideas depend on their predecessors ideas, it's a step by step process and a multitude of possible directions can be taken. who decides and why certain religous 'routes' are taken are usually down to personal benefit of the men at the top, and how they can command maximum personal or racial benefit.

  • eireannach666

    @Epicurean_Logic

    Just wanted to add, I assume personal includes the military and the money.

    Especially when talking about the previous couple thousand yrs or so. Religion is a cash cow. Holds alot of say so where Im at , for sure.

  • anas

    Jesus taught his followers to believe in one God while Paul taught his disciples to believe trinity

    Jesus taught his disciples to follow The Mosaic law to the letter while Paul taught otherwise.

    If you believe in Jesus do you follow Jesus's teachings or Paul's teachings?

  • Superbuggg

    No!

  • mr.serious

    jesus and Muhammad(PBUH),both are the messengers of God!Jesus is niether God,nor the son of the God!and He's Still alive.He'll come to this world again,at the time of anti-christ(the one eyed guy known as 'Dajjal').

  • lc

    I would be really upset if a car was speeding towards me which I did not see, but another did see, and then kept their mouth shut not caring to warn me so that my life would be saved (of course in which case I would likely be dead so could only curse them from wherever I end up). Likewise, in the same situation, I would be so grateful to anyone that warned me (in such a dire urgency it would be difficult to not scream and holler- "WATCH OUT...."); and imagine even if someone ran to take me out of harms way and they ended up taking my place- we usually call such beings Heros.

  • lc

    Another thought I had concerning the likelyhood of there being only one way for some specific instances ... I think of an analogy such as if it is true that a human needs oxygen and there is no substitute in order for a person to stay alive except for oxygen, then wouldn't the person die if they did not have oxygen and instead was void of oxygen and tried to replace it with something else?

  • lc

    I don't know if this might help, concerning the concept of a trinity ... and I suppose this is a very simplistic analogy not fully accurate or explainitory ... but I had the thought of if one believes a person, being just one person but having a body, soul, and spirit ... and in that one person existing in both body, soul, and spirit can interact with the person's three "aspects" of body, soul, spirit (for example: the spirit talks to/mind thinks to itself that the body is hungry and then the body responds by feeding itself) ... then maybe that would be a very simplistic way to try in some way explain how Jesus could pray to God the Father even though being One with God the Father (being that Christians believe that there is only One God but in three persons being Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). Another example, though I don't know how accurate, might be something like one triangle existing in three angles.

  • anas

    The problem is simple actually. God is one God or God is three gods . If two things contradicted, one of these must be false and the person that preached it must be a damn liar.

    But the Christians elders compromised and they had accepted that both teachings by Jesus and Paul as true. This compromise had made Christianty a religion difficult to be understood not only by the intellectuals by also by the masses.

    In doing this compromise , they had to justify the trinity, a doctrine not taught by Moses and Abraham at all.It became so complicated that no sane person can justify this doctrine without saying the magic word "It's faith, believe in Jesus and you will be saved?"

    If Christians dare to argue based on logic, I believe most Christians will leave this faith as it is a uncomprehensible religion.

    Had the early Christians rejected Paul's teaching, the Christianity today will be closer to Judaism and Islam, religion that taught the monothesim of God.

  • Kurrrt

    Jesus lived a Jew, died a Jew. I'm ok with that. He taught all of those he could how to be the best human being that one can ever be. He simply taught that the God (our father), creator of humanity, who a small part of this God is within each and every one of us. Our father- not just only Jesus's father, the piece of our heavenly father he calls the "God" in within, within each of us, is still there today. Like he's been trying to tell us for 2000 years. Other religions twisted and distorted these parables he's taught in his day...These religions-> IslamBaha'i, Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, Wicca, Zoroastrianism, and Druidism.
    They distorted these truths Jesus taught, and aimed them towards an outside one God--->for reasons of controlling the various populations around the world. Senceless to believe every one believes this to this day. The truth is within us all, you really need it and don't realize it. Not an outside of the body God. Which restricts the growth of cultures and technology around the world even today. Only outside of the self will you find evils of all kinds. I will not be corrected in saying.
    Seek within thyself for truth. No outside of the self shall the truth be ever found. Once you know, truth will flow like a river to share with others this one and only truth. He taught freewill to mankind and man avoided it in fear of outside Gods. Avoid these daily various religious deceptions. Just look how many!!! It's so simple, yet the grasp of religion has a very strong hold using false pretence. It's not a belief, it's truth. Scratch the word belief out of your mind! Religions are divided and have walls of restrictions, seek a group not a church. Jesus warned you not to believe any other method or religion. But his way and his words, but no one listens -to his only simplest words. "Seek within thyself for truth". Put your hands in prayer together for no one. The holy father is within you. Evil has lied to you and everyone is allowing this evil to win over humanity, and evil is too far ahead. Hold this in your heart and you will not be sorry. (look up belief and look up truth in the dictionary, you choose for yourself).

  • Kurrrt

    It is sincerely hoped that the truth contained will be a sword that cuts through the armor of deception and lays open the hearts and minds of the nessary quotients for success in my last statement.

  • Superbuggg

    "Like he’s been trying to tell us for 2000 years. Other religions twisted and distorted these parables he’s taught in his day…These religions-> Islam Baha’i, Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism, Taoism, Wicca, Zoroastrianism, and Druidism. They distorted these truths Jesus taught...".

    Some of these other religions you mention pre-date the Sandalled One alleged existence! 'Nice that you included Christianity though.

    As Christians, Muslims and those of Jewish faith share Abraham as their patriarch, are they not pretty-much the same bag of tricks? Just like Buddhism and Shinto are equally similar?

    Christ's story is recycled Joseph from the OT, smudged with Mithras and Krishna! Get over it!

  • kay

    I think religions are ridiculous. We should all just get wasted.

  • drunk man

    @ kay.
    Sounds like a wonderul idea!
    Hallelujah!!!

  • Kurrrt

    Recovering from religion is about at it's end for me, It feels silly to even reflect back in that direction. I don't claim to be an expert on any religious subject, I'm only an artist. I see the world a much different and better place now. I also find myself part of a smaller majority, but of those who know better. Free yourselves, have a good 2010.

  • khadijah

    QUOTE FROM THE DESCRIPTION: Yet there is a Second Coming, when he shall descend in the clouds as a Muslim to destroy the Jews and ‘the swine’.

    There is no verse in the Qur'an nor any Hadith that says this. God made the Jewish race, so He is obviously not a racist. God has not annihilated the Jews, so He obviously loves them. Loving someone and being unhappy with them are two different things. Yes, God is unhappy the Jews broke their covenant with Him, but He obviously is not so angry that He hates them. In the Bible God destroys those He is that angry with. But, the Jews still exist today.

    The closet thing to the above quote from the description would be the Hadith by Bukhari

    [43:656] Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax(Tax on non-Muslims). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).

  • Kurrrt

    God, Allah? If they do whole lot of nothing in real life what good are they? Useless waist of time to believe the untruth. Aweful sounding Quotes are not even good for reading if they mean nothing what so ever. 2000 years and counting waiting for a second coming is really silly, and sounds like a childrens joke book, or a drunk man. Who wants to constantly talk about religious murder and aim hatred on a planet of love anyway? God? Allah? Why?

  • Kurrrt

    By the words of Allah, "that also applies to those who have not yet menstruated" (65:4) and He made the 'idda of a girl before puberty three months.

    4840. It is related from 'A'isha that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, married her when she was six years old and consummated it when she was nine, and she was his wife for nine years. (Aisha Bewley, The Sahih Collection of Al-Bukhari, Chapter 70. Book of Marriage

    'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house AS A BRIDE WHEN SHE WAS NINE, AND HER DOLLS WERE WITH HER; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008,
    -Quote?---see anything WRONG here?---unQuote!

  • ed

    I firmly believe jesus was a politician.

  • Kamran Khan of Shabqadar

    Who the hell is going to read all these comments in which every one is trying to prove himself a Plato. Just watch the documentary and keep quiet. If you have learned some thing from this documentary mold your future life according to what you learned. Lastly, Human can never be a god and Jesus was a human and nor a human could be son or daughter of god.

  • lc

    I think discussions are good ... I think it helps us learn from different viewpoints which helps us along with anything of God's creation as well as our own God created minds to make our own decisions as to how we choose to live our lives.

    I find the posts to documentaries to be a value added extension of any documentary, and whether or not anyone reads the posts as well as watch the documentary is up to a person if they decided to participate.

    On the topic of Jesus being human- Christians don't believe that Jesus was mere human, nor that Jesus was the son of God in the sense like humans are sons of fathers. If one does believe in a God that is all mighty and all knowing, I think that there would likely be many things our human mind can never understand fully this side of eternity about such a God; but I don't believe that anything is impossible for God to do if He decides to. For example: In the Quran, chapter 2 verse 117 and also chapter 2 verse 47, chapter 6 verse 73, chapter 36 verse 82, chapter 40 verse 68 …. Allah says “… ‘Be!’ – and it is”. As far as trinity goes, though also difficult to understand fully, I myself do not have any problem accepting it even when reading the Quran on the matter. The Quran often uses a plural pronoun in reference to God (an example: Quran reading from chapter 16 verse 40) has me wonder what that means and seems like a contradiction to the Muslim belief of one God not being a triune God.
    Also, in the Bilble, both Old and New Testaments often refer to God in the plural which then affirms more rather than contradict the Christian belief of a triune God.
    I don’t believe however, that the Bible says that God is three Gods … the Bible clearly states that God is One God; and if that One all mighty God Who can decree such a thing as “Be!” and it is, then why can He not also be One God in triune form?
    I have no difficulty with logically thinking that if there is a God that can decree “Be” and it is, that that God can then do and be anything He decides.

    I also don’t have any problem with understanding with no contradiction what Jesus taught and what Paul taught, including the trinity … I can find nothing that contradicts the other.

    The trinity doctrine was taught in the Old Testament; it’s roots are found in the Old Testament taught by Abraham and Moses and is not a 4th century invention. In the Bible in Isaiah 48:12-17 … there is mention of- “…From the first I have not spoken in secret, from the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.” When I read that in it’s context of also the preceeding verses, I see that God is the One speaking. Then in this last verse quoted here, I see that God, the One Who is speaking, now says God sent Him and His Spirit.

    Another thing I’ve seen in both the Quran and the Bible is how the word “One” doesn’t necessarily mean just a single numerical thing only. It can be plural as well as singular in nature, for example, the use of a plural pronoun in some references to Allah in the Quran and also in the Bible there is this verse which helps me perceive how “One” doesn’t necessarily mean just a single thing only but can also be plural as well as singular in nature: Ezekiel 37:17 “Join them together into one stick so that they (the two sticks for Israel and Judah) will become one in your hand”.

    A couple other examples that are in the Old Testament are in Psalm 51:11 where the Holy Spirit is mentioned, and also Isaiah 63:8-11 (where it is talking about the children of Israel that Moses lead out of bondage in Egypt are now wandering in the wilderness and vexing/grieving the Holy Spirit because of their rebellion against Him).

    Joel chapter 2 verses 28-29 speaks about a time predicted through the prophet Joel, when God would pour out His Spirit on flesh.

    Also there is so many prophecies in the Old Testament which refer to Jesus being the Messiah and as well as part of the triune of the One God. Also can see Isaiah chapter 9 verse 6 where Jesus is a son and child but also mighty God. See also Proverbs 30:4; and for many more examples pointing to One God Who is a Triune God see: Genesis 16:7-13; chapters 18-19; 22:11-18; Exodus 3:2-6; 23:20-23; Judges 6:11-14, 20-22; 13:21-23; Psalm 45:6-7 …. and there are many more.

  • Superbuggg

    "Who the hell is going to read all these comments" - Me! Gee... sorry"

    "Just watch the documentary and keep quiet." - Ja Vol!

    "...from this documentary mold your future life according to what you learned" - 'mold' my future...? - it's a phreakin' documentary Man!

  • Sean

    There will be much less conflict in this world if there is no religion.

  • Kurrrt

    Worship the controller has been the ploy. Mankind has very little time left to wake up to the strategy and cooperatively agree that is time to end this charade once and for all.
    Focus is on humanity not religious invisible entities. Stepping back into humanity of the human self, not an appointed outer source of control. Continued enslavement will continue if humanity does not make a clear choice and step up to reality of the planetary purpose of creative consciousness. Which shares creations part of God within us all, which is void of any religion. We are all one race, the human race. We should all speak with one voice. The new birthing of the planet is about to take place and ALL religions have to go.
    Everyone must realize humanity has a part in how the planet reacts as one with us ALL. Become more human and kindly let go of what you were told and use your freethought and simply become one with all of Mankind...

  • Kurrrt

    Knowledge is thought which flows from the Light of understanding. This points out the need to know as much as possible about the dark plans intention for the enslavement of this planet. It points out the importance of the work that has been done by those committed to investigating, observing, drawing obvious conclusions and then sharing with any and all who will listen and read about what constitutes the dark plans. Those who have committed their life focus exposing this plan serve their fellow human beings and this planet as well...

  • Halla

    If anyone has taken origins of Christianity in university they would know that most of what is known as Christianity today was agreed on in the 4th century when Constantine converted the Roman Empire into Christianity. There were 4 councils that took place where Christian Bishops gathered and decided on what will be called Christianity (the Trinity, Jesus being God and Son of God and Mary being mother of God). Jesus never said he is God or Son of God and the Gospels are written by people who never actually met Jesus. Paul being the one who spread the religion to the "gentiles" has never seen Jesus and was born probably 30 years after Jesus had died. And the early Christians were actually a Jewish sect who believed that Jesus was the Messiah, they were not called Christians until the 4th Century after the whole Roman empire was converted into Christianity. Because as we all know Jesus was Jewish himself, he did not preach a new religion he merely tried to teach a new way of living that would fit the time they lived in.

  • lin

    I agree that Constantine converted the Roman Empire into an established Christianity which however, is not the pure gospel. The Christian Bishops tried to "Christianize" some of the pagan religions ... however, in the process they also paganized Christianity- For just one example: Isis was a godess worshipped in another religion, and to try to get people of that religion to convert to Christianity, they used Mary, the mother of Jesus as a replacement. This is now called the Roman Catholic. However, Christianity is just a label which is used in meaning different meanings these days. The true Gospel was preached by Jesus, his disciples and apostles; and Jesus did claim equality with God (read the book of John) ... also God foretold of the Messiah in the Old Testament. Paul was carring out this true gospel still in his day and today we still have it. The true gospel is according to Jesus who was a Jew and is the Messiah as told in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. It does not matter if any of the Bible's authors were alive when Jesus was alive (although the authors Matthew and John were alive when Jesus was alive), because God divinely revealed to the authors of the Bible the words in the Bible ... and even though the Bible was written by various authors over the course of 1500 years it remains one unified book from beginning to end without even one contradiction. The prophecies fullfilled in the Bible is evidence alone of the wonderful miraculous power of God, as well as how the Bible has many times suffered more attempts to destroy it more than any other book in history; however, it still remains to this day and not only does it still remain, but is the most widely published book in the world.

  • Superbuggg

    For Christ's sake... get it right! 'Gospel' means 'witnessed' - NONE of the gospel writers i.e. Matthew, Mark Luke and John ever witnessed Christ for he is a fable - a myth-man recycled from the 'Joseph' of the OT! Jesus's fabrication bogusly fulfilled OT prophesy! The politically motivated leaders in Rome fudged it all together to sucker the rabble! Saul, or Paul picked it up an ran with it!

    And this scam continues to this day!

  • Achems Razor

    @lin:

    Bible not contradicted??? Who told you that? It is full of contradictions! and inconsistencies!

    Google..."Problems with the Bible"
    Click on (Problems With The Bible).

  • lin

    @Achems Razor

    No one told me that. I have never been able to find any inconsistencies or contradictions in the Bible ... even supposed "problems" googled can be shown how they are not at all inconsistant and/or a contradiction.

    @Superbuggg

    Yes, gospel means witnessed and that's what they did and still do... witness. Also, there is enough historical evidence that Jesus is not a fable besides even in the Bible. I do agree with you on the politcally motivated leaders in Rome, but disagree about Paul. To accept the argument that Paul created an entirely new religion requires a willingness to ignore an overwhelming amount of evidence.

  • Superbuggg

    Your bending the meaning of the word 'witness', prior to that you were just bending the meaning of the word 'gospel'.

    It is an accepted fact that the four gospels are in-fact a re-write of one of them - Mark.

    If it too new, or too bold an assertion for you to accept that the findings of scholars who're adequately honest to admit 'Jesus did not exist', please don't feel chalenged... 'always wise to keep an open mind to that of which one is so far, blamelessly naive!

  • lin

    I'm not bending anything. Lookup 'gospel' and 'witness' in a dictionary and you'll see the applicable definitions as well as origins for those words. The word gospel literally means good news. The word witness literally means knowledge.

    What is wrong with if three of the four gospels are a "re-write" of Mark? How does that disprove the gospel? It just gives more accounts by more than one author to give a more complete picture of Christ. In a court of law today, that would be considered as good to have more than one account given by one person to objectively verify the truthfullness of something.

    There are also scholars who are honest to admit that Jesus did exist, as well as was crucified on the cross, as well as rose from the grave; and I quote the rest of your sentence to you as well.

    The Agape Love of Christ Jesus continues and is for all who want to receive it.

  • Achems Razor

    @lin:

    16 crucified "Saviors" other than Christ with parallel history's. raise from the dead, walk on water, born of a virgin, etc: etc:

    1-Krishna-(India)...2-Sakia-(Hindu)...3-Thamiz-(Syria)...4-Wittoba-(Trelingonese)...5-Iao-(Nepal)...6-Hesus-(Dtuidic Celts)...7-Quexalcote-(Mexico)...8-Quirinus-(Rome)...9-Prometheus-(Greek)...10-Thulis-(Egypt)...11-Indra-(Tibet)...12-Alcestos-(Greek)...13-Atys-Phrygia)...14-Ctite-(Chaleea)...15-Bali-(Orissa)...16-Mithra-(Persia)

    I just cannot believe sane people fall for the religious fairy tales that are all so prevalent.

    There is no "Agape" love from your god, gods. read the Old Testament, and quit cherry picking only the stuff you want to hear!

  • Superbuggg

    Bam!

  • Epicurean_Logic

    There are 3 words for love in the Greek language (although i believe that it was a word made up by poets and storytellers) to express high emotions.

    Agape, a beutiful word for the love of your family and friends....

    Erotas, a sexual love...

    Philia, frienship, respect,...

    Jesus was all about agape and this is why he is such a powerful character. this is what i have discovered by talking to you guys on the net, although we have social and political restrictions put upon us at all times!! In the moment we do not give a flying f**k about that kind of thing... you have a life to live and all the phsycological and intellectual prowess that we possess is slight compared to the bigger picture of life itself.

    Find your own way, i am drunk again, and be considerate to your fellow human beings. (Idealistic comment 1245.7/)

    Jesus isn't so bad, it's all the baggage that come with him that is restrictive and potentially represssive!!!

    Philia is also very important!! Philia is the essence of life!!

    A rare and priceless state of mind!

    p.s. Achems is right, stop cherry picking the stuff that you want to hear and read the book in entirity to see the bigger picture!!

  • lin

    If one seeks out the truth and researches the historical facts, they will find that all these other "gods" you mention have no factual basis as being anything but fictional or are attempts to mimic (sometimes hardly bear any resemblance to) the actual Savior Jesus Christ, and that Jesus as recorded in the New Testament is the real deal. To discover the truth one should look into the historical foundations and accountability behind such assertions. Most of these false gods mentioned date back to the third and fourth century A.D. The ones that date before Jesus don't even bare any resemblance to Jesus at all unless one employs selective descriptions and greatly exaggerates. The assertion that Jesus is some fairy tale which can be lumped in with these false gods originated in the writings of the 19th century liberal German theologians. After scholars investigated such stories, all but the story of Jesus were found to be false.

    It takes at least about two generations to pass before any true historical account can become mixed or turned into some kind of fallacy. All of the Gospels of the New Testament were written during the generation of a people who could bare witness as to whether or not what the authors of the Gospels wrote were true or not. Why would anyone want to write something that could obviously be refuted in their current generation? It would be like someone today claiming to this generation that U.S. President Barack Obama was never a U.S. President.

    I think I am not the one who is cherry picking. Apparantly some will find it difficult to hear the truth and feel offended because they want their ears ticked instead. There is an evil in the world that would like nothing better than to blind, bind, deceive, and destroy the love and truth of Jesus to all of us mankind.

    All words come into existance at one point or another ... it's one way we can try and communicate. I believe in free choice without persecution and I also believe in truth being defended ... are not both of these factors of Love? The big picture to me is this Love which I believe comes from the Creator of all life Who I believe to BE the essence of life - not me .. I will never claim to be on par with God for I don't believe there is any perfect/sinless human<<< that should be obvious to us all. I don't believe Jesus is restrictive but freeing ... as in Savior <<< the only One who is perfect/sinless because I do believe He is God come to earth in human form to make a way for us if we want it because He loves us and knows we can not of and in ourselves save ourselves from eternal separation from Him ... and I gladly and thankfully receive His salvation. As an analogy to that choice/path/way, I don't believe that just because someone hands me a parachute as a plane is going down means that I haven't chosen my own way, but that my own way chooses to receive that parachute.

  • lin

    I do read the entire Bible and the big picture to me is about God's Love and the why's, what's, how's God gives to us as the whole Bible points to the Lord Jesus Who is this.

  • lin

    I am not the one trying to tell anyone what to do as some are trying to tell me what I should do (how is that my own choice/way?). I am merely stating what I believe and when "attacked" defending what I believe, and anyone can choose to believe it or not, and/or maybe seek and discuss more.

  • Superbuggg

    I found it personally, very empowering when I first learned then realised what a crass political scam and victory over people's souls religion really was!

    'Hesus Krishna' = 'Jesus Christ'... there's no 'J' in Latin, hence 'Jesus Krishna'. Top-dog, Constantine took the name of the British Earth god 'Hesus' and fudged it onto the Eastern saviour god 'Krishna'. East meets West for political expediency. The bible (biblos) is a compilation of some really cool allegory, and some really sadistic, mean stories, true understanding of which is pretended to by folk who're happy to derogate the meaning of words like 'witness'!

    None of us here, it seems, at all minds whatever kinda' mumbo-jumbo adult humans personally want to buy into. But tell me if I'm wrong... most of us drawn this video are rather on the Dick Dawkins side of the equation i.e. when it comes to shoving religious dogma down anyone else's throats - especially ones own children it's tanatamount to child abuse!

    But as evidence of aledged child abuse gets two great endoresments in the bible, without any critical comment - who know's what some zealots will tell their kids?

    In fact, true story: a friend visited yesterday and was mid-arguement with his mate who was waiting in the car outside. Mateyboy1 asked "...is it right to tell your son that god might not exist?" which is what Mateyboy2 was asserting in the context that his kids go to a religious school. My response was that it's in-fact obligatoiry to tell one's progeny that god might not exist - regardless of what anyone might say!

    Lin: the 'gods' from which Jesus' story is recycled lived before the aledged time of the Sandalled-one, obviously. Mithra, Bacchus, Krishna etc. etc. you didn't name a single one of your post-Christ fraudsters!

    BiggG Love on Planet Earth!

  • Achems Razor

    @lin:

    No one is attacking you. It seems that you desperately want to prove the existence of your gods.

    You can believe and do what you want. If you believe what you believe, why do you need to try to convince others?

    For the un-believers they need proof, something tangible, not stuff that was written from people that lived in caves, sheepherders that thought the Earth was flat.

    We need more than the beliefs that are written in books, by the elite to control the masses.

  • lin

    Superbuggg:

    I do believe there are many religions and beliefs that are only politically motivated, and people such as Constantine who tried employing such for control over people. I believe Contantine was against God, didn't even truely care about God but just used God's name for political agenda. I believe Jesus was not like this and was only love motivated. There are accounts in the bible that speak of horrible things going on in the day ... just like at any other time in our history even till now; but I don't believe that the Bible condones such things ... but that the opposite is true ... it is just telling how such things were going on. When we here news reports in the media of something criminal, it does not mean the news reporter is condoning it, but just giving us the news.

    As far as gods from the time before Jesus, I believe they were false gods that people worshipped and have no resemblance at all to Jesus as I mentioned. It wasn't till later that German theologists tried twisting stories of old to make it look like they resembled the story of Jesus for their political agenda. I was applying my statement before to all the gods mentioned.

    People in the apostle Paul's day, didn't even think Jesus was some recycled god story ... the Athens were asking Paul what is this new teaching and said how it was strange and new to them ... so that is just one example which shows how they were not thinking of Jesus as some recycled god.

    If you want, you can pick a god out of a list for me to write specifics about why I believe they do not resemble Jesus. Otherwise, my statements above about them should show why I believe they are not the same as Jesus.

    Achems:

    I do desire for us to all know the Love of Jesus because I believe it involves eternal consequences for us and I care. Just like if I saw a someone standing in the line of an oncoming car, I would want to say something to them so they don't get hurt. Also, I am defending what I believe too as also others here are defending what they believe. I believe we all have that right.

    The Bible does not promote a flat earth theory ... it was only some so called intellectual scholars after the time of Jesus claiming to represent the Church that promoted the flat earth theory. Can google about it for more evidence for and against.

    For evidence outside of the Bible, there is my personal testimony and others personal testimonies which one would either believe or not believe as being true ... usually for that a person would have to really know the other person to believe anything they would say. There are also other historical manuscripts which document that Jesus was on the earth and was crucified (can google); however I find it odd that some can believe history books about some things and not about other things when there is and is not any tanglible evidence ... so this probably wouldn't make much difference either to an unbeliever. There also is a great deal of archeological evidence for proof (lots of documentaries can watch on this). For some tangible scientific evidences of today that might help show someone that Jesus and His resurrection is true, can check out the new evidence discoverd about the Shroud of Turin ... which includes new scientific discoveries within quantum physics as well as the old carbon dating mistake made ... can watch this interesting documentary on YouTube ... just type in "The Fabric of Time" ... there are six parts to this documentary video on YouTube posted by skylightsauna.

    Also, another source to look into if anyone is interested is in Christian Apologetics (can google). Christian Apologetics uses reason to defend the Christian faith. Can google Josh McDowell, or Lee Strobel, both who have many resources and films on such for evidences. One was an atheist, the other an agnostic, and both had begun an investigation to disprove the Christian faith.

    But I think the best proof is with an open and honest and sincere heart, to ask God, the Creator of all life, to reveal Himself to us. Can ask God the Father of Abraham, Who are you and do you really exist, I sincerely ask, reveal yourself to me. If done with an open and sincere heart, I believe God will begin to reveal Himself. He did with me and it wasn't because of some church or religion ... it was because I really wanted to know and so was seeking.

  • Achems Razor

    @lin:

    No thanks, Grizzly Adams, the production co. that shows your fabric of time videos, is a "faith Based"! "Biased" independent movies, documentaries, and television specials and series "faith based"! for the past three decades production company.
    Did I say biased? and faith based?

    The shroud is a fake, watch right here on TDF. "Leonardo: The Man Behind The Shroud?"

  • Kurrrt

    I got my answer when I asked.

  • lin

    And how is yours not biased? But okay, there are other documentaries on this too which show the latest scientific evidence on the Shroud of Turin. I guess you don't believe in science either. No one who has responded to my posts here has proved to me anything that shows me that Jesus was not the real deal, and never can they because I know Him to be real. There are many gods (self, money, statues, spirits, etc.) but an unwilling heart no matter what they do will never find the One True God although one day we will all know the truth when we face our Maker. We all have our God given free will to choose now where we want to spend eternity.

  • lin

    The "Leonardo" thing was proved, scientifically, to be hogwash which apparantly you cherry pick which hogwash to believe.

  • Jazz

    Razor, just wondering, do you think it is biased? lol. Wondering why you are on a message board that is linked to a faith based video. Goodness, Iin seems to have struck a nerve with you. If you're not willing to look over all including faith based anything then how can you have all the evidence before you to make an objective decision? I've seen the video and it presents both sides.

  • Jazz

    Reading over all the posts here. The past weeks posts seem to have no muslim posts.

  • Achems Razor

    @lin:

    We have to prove there is no gods? Au Contraire! the onus is one YOU to prove that there is a god.
    Which is scientifically impossible, according to the scientific method.
    How can one possibly prove beliefs? beliefs hold no merit. You cannot prove a fairy tale.

    The Leonardo "thing" was not proved scientifically as hogwash. Show me where it says that? Besides your Grizzly Adams production co. videos.

    If you want to talk, I suggest you quit preaching, I for one am not interested. I don't give a rats a*s about your eternity cr*p. Your heaven, and all that I am gods little sunbeam, wearing a halo mumbo jumbo.

  • lin

    Achems: Are you not preaching to me your belief? I believe all people have a belief ... that even believing in nothing is a belief - that would be what one's belief if someone believes in nothing.

    Can type in DaVinci code myth about the Leonardo thing if you really want to know about that, which I don't think you do based upon your words.

    I wear no halo. I am a sinner/imperfect person, just like everyone else. I can not go to a place where perfection is required because if imperfection enters in because it would then corrupt the place making it imperfect. That is why I need a Savior, and I've glady received His Gift.

  • lin

    Check out "Unlocking the Mystery of Life".

  • Kurrrt

    It's not about one God or a Jesus, Muslim, or religion.
    It's about us (and our future without slavery), and being enough human to think for one self. (Personal correct thought, void of recieving interfearing unfounded projected outside thought) It's about evolving into the next higher culture in belief and in technology the same. Void of religion & currency. This is all of our planet and everyone within. For what reason should money exist? The only reason language was introduced is to keep man from evolving in every category (even projecting thought). If man were to develop a consciousness within the self. mankind would give controlling forces an opposition.
    Seeking within our selves lies the truth, for all together we create a bond with our creator, our real God, who is one together- but only within mankind . Religion restricts us from evolving, and aims populations into various beliefs towards outside Gods. (Never the truth told by controllers). Not one mention in biblical script on any method into evolving towards higher cultures, into levels of advanced understanding. We now live in slavery- because of the supernatural silliness, only the unknowing will be the last to know truth.
    Open the eyes and inner eye and quit bickering, senselessly over a subject bound for failure, religion. Comes with a 3 thousand year trail of evidence. Now re-evaluate & step up to 2010 and beyond, dwelling on ancient scripts never made any future advancements. (also two hands working is better than thousands clasped in prayer.) So far it's created where we are today, instead of an advanced energy sufficient futuristic atmosphere, void of the greed of various power structures (oil, natural gas, and electric companies). Which also restrict our advancement into technologies, only for their claim in their power to do so, the people suffer this restricting turmoil . All those amenities could have simply been applied to each home, simply self contained, void of cost. abundance has caught up enough to work free live free eat free travel free and be worry free. Without controlling religions, governments and currency. We simply only need each other, nothing else.
    Become more human for human sake. Have the greatest day of your life everyday, and the rest of your life.

  • Kurrrt

    Finding freedom from religion and it's wrath is extremely delightful, the road to enjoying a good life is a struggle erasing some well founded lessons. Nothing can replace truth of how we were intended to be one with creation. This method of harmony and energy was interupted and needs repair. The repairs on humanity go on unattended. Only humanity together with knowing the method can create a change for the better. Being less agressive towards one another is a good begining, among many other kind ways to behave as a human being should. Find something kind and friendly on TV sets. You'll not find many, as the projection of unkind acts of various sorts of evils, war games, etc., exist to further a dark plan which is on going right under the consciousness of mankind. Further ignoring our origional advancements. I'm on this comment list to aim this energy to this moment in time, not yesterday, but for tomorrow. An aim to fix what's wrong. To only project kindness to every bitter situation. Religion, a concern of all and it's alarming global danger it causes, we should simply ignore. And re-evaluate this from a free thinking perspective of how reality should be. Avoiding dangerous extremes. Peace should be protected extremely defensively- not aggressively.
    Instead of leaving comments of what you believe, continue on learning- instead of attempting to recrute those who you believe need to be corrected in their unfounded religious beliefs. It's a never ending horrable cycle that always comes to a full circle. Be the needle to bust the bubble of those unknowing. Turn around, skip religion and learn from this great mistake. And do what you can do to make each day better than the one before. Therefore making yourself a better human being as a part of the origional method to evolve.

  • Superbuggg

    Quote:
    "No one who has responded to my posts here has proved to me anything that shows me that Jesus was not the real deal" - Lin.

    'Proof' is an empirical concept... no science had any 'proof' of anything until the development of mathematics.

    The 'proof' you need, and say you'll never get, is based on your 'beliefs' - i.e not a proof at all... there's a gap!

    I loved how when I said you hadn't specified any of you post-christ fraudsters, you still said nothing. Then a few paragraphs down, you remedy this by mentioning the gods "self, money, statues, spirits, etc."

    Hah!

  • lin

    Well, guess no one can proove anything according to science then and you just have to choose what to believe and what not to believe. However there are absolute truths even if we don't know them it doesn't make it not true.

    Quote: " loved how when I said you hadn't specified any of you post-christ fraudsters, you still said nothing" <<< that is a lie, read what I wrote if you have eyes to see.

    And yes, I think there are many gods such as self, money, statues, spirits, etc. but only One True God is what I said ... so stop twisting my meaning around. What I mean by that is that we all choose what to believe or not believe ... even the belief to only believe in oneself ... no one can escape belief ... and some things are true and some things are not true so it's wise to find out what is and isn't true so as not to be deceived. When I type the word god with a little "g" I'm referring to lessor than. Some things that are lessor than can be true or they can be false but all is lessor than our One True God. Whatever people place as top billing in their lives to devout themselves to whether knowingly or unknowingly would be what the person worships in their life and makes their god. I think we all do this with something for it's impossible to not and usually it's self that we as humans have the tendency to worship ... no matter what belief a person holds including Christians <<< it's just human nature to do this. However, it doesn't necessarily make what we worship true or right or without flaw ... there is only One that is without flaw and 100% True and that is our God the Creator of all life.

  • Kurrrt

    Chris Angel vs. Jesus?
    God is not a living entity, hasn't science explained it enough. Churches don't want science involved in their take on humanity. Everyone hears the term God as simply a figure of speech today. Your living in a world of fate not faith. Using the term God, who is within the matrex of all humanity together. Religion has divided the truth using outside Gods for more control and to stray humanity away from creations origional truth. Nothing more disturbing to mankind than religion and what it's done all ready. The BS has came to a complete circle. Did someone somewhere invent another God yet to add to the mix? Think reality not supernaturally.
    The supernatural is simply tricks of technology, ask Chris Angel. You have been fooled long enough, wake up and reject the herd of followers and be a leader.

  • lin

    I don't know what Chris Angel has to do with with the reality of our created world. He is just an illusionist and just because he is an illusionist doesn't make God an illusionist. I'd like to see Chris Angel or anyone try and create a world complete with trees and oceans and wildlife, etc. Where do you think we came from?

    First I am told science has nothing to do with it, than I'm told the opposite. I don't believe in religion but a spiritual relationship ... and maybe some churches or some religions don't welcome science, but God welcomes science ... after all, He is the Greatest Scientist. I don't believe that God is in each one of us. I agree that a lot of people today hear and use God as a figure of speech ... many of us have lost Who God really is.

    In response to a previous post for us to discuss and learn if possible:
    That is what you believe, okay, but aren't you recruiting? I for one, am not religious nor believe in any religion but in a spiritual relationship ... with God ... Who I believe is the Creator separate from His creation. Like an artist is separate from his artwork. I think the artwork can have traces and evidences in it of the artist, but the artist is not the artwork itself and vice versa nor can it ever be (unless the artist eats it I suppose, hehehe ... but even then it's not wholy absorbed into the artist) ... trying to be light-hearted.

    I don't find wrath in having a spiritual relationship with God but the opposite. I see wrath when I or another leave God out of the picture and rely on our own fallible ways. Man can not have created all the flowers and trees and birds and bees ... if God were in us in the manner in which you speak, then wouldn't we be as God the Creator is and wouldn't we be perfect as He is? ... but we are not, we are fallible. I see no way we can in and of ourselves be perfect creatures no matter how much we "advance" or even together (because together we are still each individually imperfect so we would just be a larger imperfect mass). To claim we can be perfect is to claim we are God, and therefore we can create the universe. This is what I believe is the original sin which Satan began which created this whole mess to begin with and continues to this day and that because of this original sin, we have now been separated from God. Satan would like nothing better than to deceive us into thinking we don't need God ... and that we can be our own god ... so we can be controlled by him<< satan. Do away with diversity and then have a one world government and one world leader without the True God and then we will really see what control looks like<<< this one person will have all the control over the masses once that happens ... and it won't be peaceful after a very short time ... it will be worse than Hitler ever was.

    I believe God provided a way for His creation though because of His Love for us to have a bridge which overcame having to be separated. So I believe the only way to be one is through God as originally intended for true harmony. Mankind can not do this on his own because we are bent towards self interest <<< just look around and it's obvious ... the more we advance, the worse we get ... it is not because of believing in God the Creator but because we are more and more leaving Him out of the picture and out of our lives and looking to whatever else ... including religion but I think as bad as that is putting self on par with God.

  • Kurrrt

    God is not a focus of personality- individual thought process or a benevolient creator seperate from you. God is the combination of the focus of all Its parts coalesced into the composite of all. Each awareness is blocked from being a part of that composite until each realizes that it is a part of this composite. Being told that means nothing at all. It is the realization that one's self is a viable part of that composite that encompasses the totality of the being, that is what becoming human is about. One must become that reality and realize it is a viable aspect of the totality of God and that its input to that reality is the truth of who they are.
    It requires a great deal of courage to crossover to a new and different perspective of the life experience. It requires releasing well-learned lessons and entering into a completely new consciousness of what reality truly is.
    Once illogical ideas are identified, then the sequential thought process reprograms itself, rather like a computer changing its internal arrangement of data, to more efficient combination of sequences.
    Any outside of the self higher belief will never provide a positive truth.
    Within each is the sorce of such guidance. The ability to tap into this wisdom is present within all and latent in most. The lessons in learning to dicern what is appropriate and what is not are many and frustrating.
    Most of this biblical information contains elements of truth. These are people who are most sincere and have no idea that it is ariving in forms of thought manipulation. Those that are concerned with perfecting these technologies have much experience in this art for it has been practiced on beings of lesser evolvement.
    Humanity has been calling for help, begging the very "gods" who have perpetrated this situation on them, to get them out of it. What chance is there that these beings will do that? None!
    The words belief and faith, I replaced with- knowing and truth. If those who believe in a one God, and suffer and grovel in victomhood of a hell. What can they do that they have not all ready done- to offer a better world? Isn't god just more of an expression or figure of speech than some entity? Have the best day of your life- from now on.

  • Kurrrt

    The focus on the intended outcome through "knowing" the desired outcome can manifest when participants are in harmony with the Laws and truly desire " the higest and best good for all humanity on planet Earth.
    Universal laws:
    Attraction
    Deliberate Intent
    Allowance
    Balance
    Within the ability to comprehend, accept and apply these Laws, lies the future design of mankind's experience.

  • lin

    I understand what you are saying, but I just disagree. What you are saying combines a mix of eastern religions and beliefs and mysticisms. I think that doing what you are saying has the potential to invite demons into a person and that is what they will be hearing, and demons will do all they can to lie and distract a person away from God our Creator ... even to the extent of seeming good at first but it is a counterfeit movement opposed to God and ultimately results in destruction. Both satan and God I believe are both real and powerful beings but one is evil and One is Good. Demons do satan's bidding. These demons would like nothing more than to get a person to empty themselves so they don't think for themselves, and then be invited in so they can control thoughts. It's a form of reprogramming so that the person becomes available to them as their slave. For an experiment: See what happens once a person who is strongly in their possesion, tries to free themselves from this and see what happens ... often times the demon will reveal itself as the evil spirit that it is that has taken possesion of that human spirit and the person will suddenly go into some sort of fits because the demon has such a hold and resists leaving. I was in Mumbai, India for months and have friends who live there and saw this ... the majority believe in these eastern religious traditions and mysticisms ... these evil spirits have had such control that over time it has created a place that is infested with rats and cockroaches and disease and poverty and severe oppression ... this is not what we want.

    How do you answer the quesiont of where you believe we came from, or what do you believe about how we came into existance? I do believe we are all connected in some way because God created us so is like a Father to children, but I believe God is a Being separate from His creation though very much concerned and involved in His creation. I also believe that a united singular thought amongst a people will create energy towards that thought because thoughts can lead to action, but that it doesn't mean that we are God ... just that we are given by God our Creator power and free will.

    From your quote: "The focus on the intended outcome through "knowing" the desired outcome can manifest when participants are in harmony with the Laws and truly desire " the highest and best good for all humanity on planet Earth". I agree with that, but that the Laws mentioned were created by the God of the Universe Who is an Entity/Being, and that in order for us to do this, we must be united in harmony in this God Who I mention, otherwise it will be impossible to have this be a reality without some flaw.

    I agree that their are false gods, but I believe that there is One True God very separate and different than all these other gods ... and if we follow these other gods, we are not following Truth, and without His Truth we can only continue in sin with no help. I will share what I believe about this One True God I believe in that offers us hope for a better world.

    This is what I wrote to a very dear dear friend and decided to share it here:

    -That there is One God Who is Creator of all life. That though there are many gods (such as self, money, statues, spirits, creation itself such as birds and bees, flowers and trees, etc.) that there is only One God who is sinless and perfect and the Creator of all life (sounds logical, right? All one has to do is look around and we see that everything is not perfect and is dying or decaying or being polluted, etc.) ... and so I acknowledge that there is only One Creator of all creation Who Is perfect/sinless and that because this Creator loves us, He has provided a way to receive a Gift from Him that will cover our sins ... because of His covering being perfect ... because He is perfect/sinless.

    -That we are all sinners (not perfect) and have no way ourselves of being perfect (sounds logical so far, right?). No amount of good works will ever make one perfect, and No amount of confession will make one perfect, we still die ... and the fact would still remain that we would still be imperfect. It's not about religion or a right religion but about a spiritual relationship ... that is right with God the Creator, and to never judge Christ by Christians or any man/woman. Man is man and God is God and what man does or doesn't do is not always what God does or doesn't do.

    - That just as there is a literal earth, there is a literal heaven that God reigns from (although God is everywhere, this heaven is His place which is holy and without corruption), and no sin, no corruption is allowed to enter into it or else it too would then be corrupted. That leaves us without any way to enter into heaven ... however, God made a way ... not through ourselves (we are all unrighteous) but through Himself Who is righteous.

    So why would anyone want to be perfect? One reason would be to be able to enter heaven and have eternal life enjoying the fullness of God forever. However, no one can be perfect, so how can anyone have this anyways?

    God knowing this, and because He loves us, made a way possible ... not through us, but through Him because He alone is able to ... and presents it to all, anyone, no matter who (nun or murderer, etc ... we are all in the same boat ... people who practice good and people who don't and all in between ... none of us are perfect) who would like to receive His Loving Gift.

    So what is this Gift and how does one receive it if they want it?

    First I try and explain the Gift. The Gift is receiving Jesus as our Saviour. What does Jesus have to do with any of this? Well, I believe that the God who created all life, created life in accordance to His laws, which He can not go against because He is perfect ... He is a loving God and knows all things ... and He knew what would happen after He created us and that sin would enter in, but He also had a plan that He would provide (according to His own perfect laws) for us if we want it that would make a way for imperfect creatures to enter into a perfect heaven upon our physical death here. God's plan was to come down to earth in human form (Jesus) and live a perfect sinless life as only He could do (because He is God), and then to take our sins upon Himself and in our place in death by His sacrifice on the cross (conquering sin and putting sin to death) and then rise from death to life (as only He has power to do because He is God) >>>> Now, that there is the Way and the Life eternal for anyone who wants this Gift He has made available through His perfect sacrifice for us, to be able to receive it if we want it ... we can't earn it, and we can't learn it, we just receive it ... this is faith, not blind faith but trusting faith, that our intellect is limited and God's is not ... so it's not learned but revealed bit by bit ... and we can't earn it ... that is why Jesus is so important because He is God making a way available through Himself for us to have eternal life through His covering of righteousness FOR us since we have no righteousness/perfection in and of ourselves. With this perfect covering of God's through His way provided to us, if we receive it, we can then now pass from life to death with His righteous/perfect covering we received which will allow us a "ticket" purchased through Christ's sacrifice (He paid the price for us) for entrance at the gates of Heaven ... and if we did receive this, then upon death God's righteous covering will then transform from a covering only to now a complete cleansing of all imperfection/sin/unrighteousness because of His righteousness and work done on our belhalf ... and we can now live eternal life in a perfect body in a perfect place.

    Some people question the trinity- God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit .. as being three separate God's, but I don't believe that they are three separate God's but One God in three persons (some analogies that make it more understandable might be like how there can be one triangle, but that one triangle has three angles ... or another might be how H2O is the chemical formula for a water molecule but also has three properties which are liquid (water), solid (ice), and gaseous (mist/vapor/steam) ... so one can see how with God, nothing is impossible and after all God is God ... the Creator of all creation. The Holy Spirit's work comes when someone receives God's Gift of salvation.

    -That this God is everywhere but not in everything, (believing God is in everything is to put everything on par with God as though everything too is perfect as God is perfect ... and it's obvious no human is perfect ... basically to claim so is claiming to be equal to God who created us ... and would be worshiping the creation rather than the Creator of creation) that although God has given humans a consciencousness about God ... it is our choice through free will if one chooses to receive God's Gift or not .... His Gift does not make us perfect/sinless/righteous like God is, but covers us with His covering of His righteousness ... and then His Holy Spirit can enter into us... but we have to receive it first or He doesn't enter in ... He doesn't force entrance ... it is a Gift ... and for those who receive His Gift, though are still imperfect/sinful/unrighteous but because He has now been invited in/received, He not only can now cover us but also help us. People who decide not to receive God's Gift have rejected His covering and help, and instead have choosen some other god of which there are many, many other than the Creator of all life (such as self, or a different spirit, etc all of which are not perfect as the God the Creator of all life is <<< I believe there is only One God Who is The Creator as much as I believe there is only one unique me and one unique you, and that this One God Who is The Creator is the only God that is perfect.)

    So that's basically my belief; the basic steps however are more simple and not as elaborate as my basic belief details above, thank God, .. I just wanted to detail some of what I believe because I thought it might be helpful in some way maybe to "clarify" some of why I believe what I do.

    The basic steps to receive this Gift from God: (and then just with a sincere, open, and honest heart, prayed/talked to God this in my own words to receive His Gift of salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ).

    -I acknowledged to God the Creator of all creation that I am a sinner, and need His continuel forgiveness that only He can perfectly provide ... and so I ask for His forgiveness.

    -I acknowledged to God that I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins and rose from the grave, and I would like to receive Jesus Christ into my heart, and His Holy Spirit to fill me and help guide my life, and help me to trust Him as I strive in living out my life in Him.

    Whether or not you or anyone else would want to do this too is of course up to each indidual. It's just an outline of what I did choose ... and I believe it is this God that changes hearts to love because it is from His righteousness and love ... and what culture wouldn't benefit from that if they choose to? I believe it's not always easy, but is simple ... simple in regards to basic steps ... the not always easy part for me anyways is trusting God in and through it all as I strive in living it out; however, it also produces joy and satisfaction and a deep peace when I do trust in God.

  • lin

    Something else to think about too- If we were God to begin with and then forgot, how could that be? Why would any of us have wanted to get away from being God if we were God to begin with? It just does not make sense.

  • Kurrrt

    That's wonderful thank you very much. I also do hope your kindly forgiven and your passage through life works out well for you. Your messages are very well learned ones. Again thank you for your time in your discription of what you strongly believe and trust.

  • lin

    Thank you also very much for sharing and your time too. I appreciate your kindness and I wish you all the very, very best.

  • Superbuggg

    Hey, I've just noticed that both Kurrrt and Lin both misspelled 'you're' instead using 'your'. Are Kurrrt and Lin the same person? Hmnnnn...

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    No they're not @Superbugg.

  • Kurrrt

    You must be here for the correct reason.

  • Superbuggg

    Yeah... they're probably not... I too spelled 'you're' wrongly but o'course none of you scholars spotted that!

    My ¿que? remark from earlier, which seems to have been removed should have actually said... you guys take yourselves way too seriously - life is just too short to be an ostrich!

    On topic... yeah, great documentary! I never knew Islam so acknowledged that phantom - Christ!

  • Rebelliuss

    'Evil triumphs when good people do nothing' and 'Evil triumphs when god does nothing'

    what has god done for all the refugees in the world lately, or ever? or for all the children being abused? and i mean literally, or is it just a one way street?..

    Bow to the almighty dictator or he will make you suffer in hell for eternity, no matter how decently you live your life... sounds like Hitler or Stalin to me..

    How can someone believe in a dictator god and then claim to believe in democracy?..

    Organised religion offends me because your core beliefs condemn me to hell for not falling to my knees in front of your "Holy Shrines" or in your "Churches" especially the big three..
    you literally believe that you are better than everyone who is not in your 'Cult' and most of you enjoy judging people in your "God's" name, even though you claim that only your "Dictator" may do so. you claim we have free will, to either go to heaven or go to hell.... that's like saying follow Hitler and you'll live in luxury, or you're free to go to a concentration camp... I'm not saying that there isn't a creator because I don't claim to be an all knowing prophet, I'm just saying that there is absolutely nothing appealing about your versions of it.... Peace, and for all your sakes, I hope there is no hell..

  • Kurrrt

    God has a hell, like Mary had a little lamb.

  • Jesus is love, peace!

    Dean,

    God Bless you. I can say Christianity, Bhudism, Hinduism, Sikhism, among others are all peaceful religions preaching love, peace, and harmony.

    Islam is the only sick cult (so called religion)that has managed to force or brainwash millions around the world.

    They believe the angel Gabriel came down and gave the "word" to the sicko they follow and call Mohammed. It was the devil himself pretending to be the angel Gabriel.

    The ROOT of the religion itself, the base, the foundation, Mohammed himself all of it, is dirty, sick, and corrupt. God would never send a messenger who could kill, rape, give orders to kill, lie, cheat, the list goes on. ONLY THE DEVIL HIMSELF COULD GIVE ORDERS LIKE THAT.

    I can understand how anyone in the world can follow any other religion in the world, just not the sick cult Islam.

    I want to ask every Muslim this:

    Who would you rather follow, a man who healed the sick, helped the poor, NEVER KILLED OR EVEN LAID ONE NEGATIVE FINGER OR EVEN THOUGHT FOR THAT MATTER ON ANYONE, fed the poor, and EVEN GAVE HIS LIFE FOR US!!!!!!!!!!

    OR

    A man that killed thousands of people with his own hands, raped hundreds of women and children, gave orders to kill tens of thousands, cheated, lied, deceived, and soo many undescribable other sickening acts

    The answer is so simple. It is up to you to truly fill your heart with TRUE LOVE, or TRUE HATE. If you pick the latter, well, God Bless your soul, and I forgive you!!!

    If someone hits you, turn your cheek and let him hit the other side, if someone throws a stone at you, throw him or her back a loaf of bread.

    Jesus is love, Jesus is peace. Jesus, Budha, Krishna, Guru Nanak, God Bless them all.

  • Jesus is love, peace!

    Kamran,

    First of all God Bless you, I wish you the best. Second of all, in reply to your post below. If you believe in God as the all powerful, all mighty, then why do you put limits on what God himself can be??? You say God can not be a man or a woman, but if you believ in your Quran which says God is most powerful and created everything, then why cant you believe he came to us as Jesus??? By doing so you have said that there is a limit to Gods abilities, and who are you to say God would not come to Earth as a human? This is where ALL Muslims are mistaken. Jesus was and is God. Water can be Ice, liquid, and a gas, so why can God not come to us as a human??? He can do anything, am I correct?????

    and if you believe God can do anything, then why can you believe this????

    Kamran Khan of Shabqadar07/02/2010 at 04:20 "Who the hell is going to read all these comments in which every one is trying to prove himself a Plato. Just watch the documentary and keep quiet. If you have learned some thing from this documentary mold your future life according to what you learned. Lastly, Human can never be a god and Jesus was a human and nor a human could be son or daughter of god."

  • Superbuggg

    ...in your humble OPINION!

  • Rebelliuss

    Mary was thought to have been between 12 and 18 when she gave birth, most likely around 13 according to the marriage traditions of the time... so it seems that your god is a bit of a nonce too.. as were most people back then, as the average life expectancy wasn't much more than 40 to 50 years old... Joseph was probably in his mid 20's to early 30's when he got married to her.... so what does that make him?... as for killing thousands of people, doesn't the bible mention something about a flood engulfing the whole world because your god was a little miffed with the people... not much forgiveness there.... you religees make yourselves look so ignorant that it would be funny if it wasn't so tragic... but I forgive you...LoL...

  • Kurrrt

    The USA puts pig blood on their bombs, so our religious enemy won't make it to their intended place on the other side. I heard soon they will launch invisible bombs at God and take him out. War can be strangely manipulating with propaganda tactics.

  • heane

    i see a slanted christian view point professing love only so will explain christian viewpoint in its truth
    god is love but also hates

    adam the first man caused sin and death to come into the world so condemned all mankind .
    so for that to be rectified a desendant of adam ( a man) had to pay the price to balance the books so to speak . one man condemned all of man by bringing sin into the world a sinless man was able to save mankind from their sin .

    jesus had to become sin on the cross so that god could extend his full wrath and crush his son who became sin so that sin once and for could be taken away once and for all as he hates sin and the sinner ( yes both : those christians who think differnt( prov 17:5))and this pleased god. sin is a part of man so has to hate it why ? becauswe he loved his creation and sin defiled it . in order for god to love all that is good has to hate that which is not : its like a murderer being let off in court cuz the judge is loving and kind : would make the judge more corrupt than the criminal : so we need god to be perfect : yeah that kinda morale standard condemns ALL mankind : who has not ever told a lie: , stole (no matter how small), lusted after someone with desire? ( in gods eyes thats adultery) and thats gods standard and everyone would be guilty if judged on that . (even breaking one of ten commandemnts makes u guilty).

    so how could god fix sin and remain just as he hates sinners/sin so he decide to take on the form as a man and
    take on sin himself , also explains why jesus cantt have been just a man : how can a mere man take on the sin of all mankind and also be made to endure full wrath of god and then rise again : would undermine the power of god : neither can jesus be an angel also: only god can withstand the power of god makes no sense otherwise .

    so through jesus can man be born again in christ and be forgiven on sins : as jesus was perfect and sinless ( yeah obnviously till became sin) enables to remain just and enable sin to be forgiven .jesus is about righteousness as on the day of judgement does being happy or not really make a differnce if u are about to be sent to hell ?

    its like being in court for a crime the evidence uis right there no way out and someone pays the fine for yuo : thats what jesus is about

    happiness , peace joy : words that get thrown about yeah they are some fruits of christianity but being saved from the wretched sins that have consumed us all when we dont deserve it which is grace ( something we dont deserve)
    defines christianity and is also what makles it differnt to the other main religions as they are based upon works : good deeeds: as what jesus did no one could equal no matter how "good" they been

    yeah can give me insults if you like doesnt bother me just wanted to clarify the actually truth based upon a christain perspective :

  • CaLLiThOwIsEeIt

    Wouln't you all sleep so much better at night if you only knew there were no God?

  • Hesus

    @ heane

    Oh well when you put it that way...

    "jesus had to become sin on the cross so that god could extend his full wrath and crush his son who became sin so that sin once and for could be taken away once and for all as he hates sin and the sinner"

    "also explains why jesus cantt have been just a man : how can a mere man take on the sin of all mankind and also be made to endure full wrath of god and then rise again : would undermine the power of god : neither can jesus be an angel also: only god can withstand the power of god makes no sense otherwise ."

    still does not make any sense.

    LMAO by this logic everyone crucified had to be god to withstand that... The idea that he somehow took all sins of humanity (past, present and future) is just retarded. Sin away and relish in the delusion that Jesus is gonna make it all right.

  • lin

    I would sleep better knowing there is a God. No God, no Love … know God, know Love. Albert Einstein, who was considered a genius, had this to say:
    (if the link doesn't show ... it's on YouTube ... just type in "Does GOD Exist... Brilliantly answered by a Genius...")

  • lin

    @ Hesus
    Jesus, being God, was sinless ... that makes the difference ... all others that have been crucified were not sinless. Jesus' sacrifice for us was because of His Love for us and is a Gift to us if any should want to receive it.
    .
    @ Heane, I agree with much of what you posted except about that God hates sinners. God sent Jesus, not for saints, but for sinners (us all) .. and that shows His Love for us all. The verse in Proverbs you listed does not say God hates sinners but that there are consequences to sin. God is Love (1John 4:8). God wishes that none should perish... 2 Peter 3:9 and 1John 4:10; and God's greatest commandment to us is to Love the Lord God and to Love others... Matthew 22:36-40. His Love is perfect unlike human love and can be both perfectly loving and perfectly righteous at the same time. God hates sin but not the sinner but sin will have it's consequences; and God can use even sin one may choose and the consequences of it to teach of His Love because He is both Love and Righteousness. That is True Love and True Righteousness.

  • Kurrrt

    Modern understandings that truely exist would be wonderful to bring into our future. The Dark Age would be horrable to hold on to, and would devolve and interfere with humanities path foreward.

  • heane

    @lin
    psalm 5:5
    habikuk 1:13

    it doesnt really change anything god still loves

    but as sin became part of man has to to remain perfectly morale, and so that he can love he gave his son so that he could fix this problem as it caused a problem as cant love a lying tongue and hate the lie , hate murder but love a murderer , those who repent and turn away from sin brings ggreat joy and love.
    God loved jesus because he was sinless
    but god had to turn his back on jesus once he became sin he had no choice .

    if the sin and sinner we separte then man could blame sin on the devil and thus takes away responsibility for our own actions.

    god hated esau bit loved jacob malachi 1:3

    to make it seem nicer you could say god hates uhnrepentant sinners , yeah god did so love the world that he gave his only son : his creation he loves we were perfect in the image of god: so set apart and before time he chose us then devil messed it up

    but anyway doesnt really matter anyways those who love and have faith in jesus and remain repentant of sin in order to fulfill gods will in order to grow in righteousness is important.

  • heane

    God's love to a sinner, is to show him how much he has sinned, how wretched he is (to see himself in truth so he or she understands their desperate need of God’s forgiveness) . . . (the Law/God’s wrath/God’s judgment) . . . then give the grace of God. That will reveal the depth of God’s love

  • heane

    When a criminal stands guilty(on trial)it would be a mistake to speak to him of how the judge loves him and how compassionate the judge is. Better for a criminal to see the frown of the judge, so that he will see the seriousness of his crime, and find a place of true sorrow and grief for what he has done. It is then that the mercy of the judge should be revealed, no sooner

  • heane

    If you study the New Testament you will see that God’s love is almost always given in direct correlation to the cross: herein is love, for God so loved, God commended His love, etc. (See John 3:16; Romans 5:5,6,8; Galatians 2:20; Ephesians 2:4,5; 5:2,25; 1 John 3:16; 4:10; and Revelation 1:5, among others.) The cross is the focal point of God’s love for the world. How can we point to the cross without making reference to sin? How can we refer to sin without the Law (Romans 7:7)?

    The l way to express God’s love to a sinner is to show him how great his sin is (using the Law—see Romans 7:13; Galatians 3:24), and then give him the incredible grace of God in Christ

  • Epicurus

    lol you guys are funny. you are arguing your points and using the bible as your whole argument, as if the bible is infallible and automatically correct. Brilliant!

    you sound like children arguing over super heroes in a comic book.

  • heane

    yeah im batman lol

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @heane,

    "When a criminal stands guilty (on trial) it would be a mistake to speak to him of how the judge loves him and how compassionate the judge is. Better for a criminal to see the frown of the judge, so that he will see the seriousness of his crime, and find a place of true sorrow and grief for what he has done. It is then that the mercy of the judge should be revealed, no sooner"

    OK so I'll ask you this:

    Who are you to judge on how the criminals should be judged in court by the judge? Or you just judged the Bible with prejudice as if the supreme judge (God) would have judge it.

    Come on.

    P.S. And stop using double names for your God sake.

  • Achems Razor

    Yeah! Spiderman!!

    @nameless says,"given in direct correlation to the cross"

    Common knowledge that the cross is of "Pagan" origin. If you worship or wear a cross you are a "Pagan" "Worshiping Pagan entities" hmmm Satanists maybe? (LOL) Religee's are so funny!

  • Achems Razor

    Correction, @heane:

  • heane

    i dont wear a cross or hang a cross on the wall . Neither are there crosses on display in the church i go to

  • Kurrrt

    Realisticlly the pope is THE stand in for a dead man, (I'm no expert, but I guess multi-billion dollar industrial religion is waiting as long it takes for Jesus to find himself another body, or there would be no other reason for a pope). Now then, who do you think the stand in's are for all those God's on this planet? I never seen one. God hasn't made the newspaper since I've been alive, or the history of any of my ancestors. For, Man himself is and has been the hidden stand in for all God's. Everyone knows man is the writers of bibles- all bibles, foreign ones too. Belief of any actual Gods stands no where but only in the shadows of inside of the religious mind. Does humanity need to see an actual god? I do, in order to be at one with knowing one exists. Being told what to believe in is the silliest thing a logical mind can ever hold on to. Everybody can't be that nieve. There's darker forces using deception within human society, most know nothing of.
    Gods don't want mankind to know themselves, or allow man knowing his true potential. Isn't "thou shall not" written all over in your bible text? God does not want the human race to focus only on themselves, which humanity desperately needs. Religions focus is to do one thing only- thats dumb down humanity for Gods reason. Man possesses great abilities which Gods will not allow man to ever focus on- or discover. The unnessary focus on an invisable God entity restricts mans evolving process, and no God never even existed in the first place. Dictators paid scribes whom wrote their so called Gods words. This has caused man as you see today to get further enslaved within the era of the Dark Age scripts. Why would that be allowed to happen? And this is religions main ongoing focus. Awaken to it, don't be tricked into a controlling religious belief any further, don't you need your future? God is not a human, today it's just a figure of speech. You need to be human and mankind needs to be a human race without any outside assistance. Our focused energy and harmony alone is all we need to kindly apply love and affection towards this planet we share together as one human race, in peace.

  • RH

    to Art K
    May Allah guide you and open your heart to this beautiful way of life. I hope you find the peace of mind.

    To Kurrrt:
    I admit I did not read every one of your posts, but the general theme was that the world would be a better place without religion. What I think you fail to realize is that humans are capable of good and evil, with or without a belief in God. Should we outlaw land ownership, because, to be honest, that seems a bigger cause of war?? What about money? Resources? Water? Democracy?

    And I forget who said this, but the existence of suffering in the world in no way can be admitted as evidence that there is no God. If there was no suffering, we would be in heaven no? Suffering is there because we have free will to do good and bad. Sadly many choose bad. But many choose good.

    A world without belief is not a world in peace. In fact, many of you delude yourself into thinking that your life style (and mine) is "peaceful". Unless you are in a barren desert devoid of any technology (not possible if you can read and post this), then I am sad to tell you that your standard of living is at the cost of the lives of many others. It is the source of pain for many others. The riches in each of our countries, many were stolen or taken away unrightfully.

    Lastly, about freedom. When we pride ourselves in "freedom," we are commenting on such a narrow view of freedom. But if you are free from "belief" then you are enslaved by your desires. And I can't think of a saddest state. When you call to enlightenment by freeing oneself from "belief", you are really calling for enslavement to human desires, the noble and the dirty.

    In Islam, we have a belief. That Islam came to free humans from the worship of creation (sun, moon, stars, devils, angels, planets, humans... the list goes on) to the worship of the Creator of them all. Because we have no priesthood in Islam. Because each one of us can read the holy scriptures (original version still available, in original language) and texts to truly understand the religion. Because each one takes sole responsability for their actions.

    And I know, that even with belief, suffering will still exist. Suffering is greatest upon those who believe, the greatest trials being upon the Prophets. But each trial borned with patience is recognized by God.

    To me, belief in God empowers me. It means that whatever injustice is commited, the day will come when all rights are returned. But until then, each one of us must make an effort to make the world a more just place.

    I wanted to end that a lot of the unbelievers rhetoric is the same as the believers. That the world would be better if everyone followed my way. We are more similar than disimilar: many of us want a better world. We just came to different conclusions (not conclusions! we can always change our minds).

    I hope I have shed some light onto what mainstream Muslims believe, and that nothing was offensive.

  • Kurrrt

    RH; your belief system is yours to consider what you need sir. It was most likely handed to you by your parents. But your focus, it's divided away from others in the world because of a belief that is only written on paper by man, and the same with other belief systems. This is a seeded planet, and the focus on humanity gets divided seperately by these various religions. Further seperating humanity from each other. Everyone scatters to their corner of the world and holds their seperate belief in their appointed gods, depending on where your born. This focus on all these Gods has taken away mans focus on himself. Which man needs to evolve into new modern understandings. I'm no expert but no God ever showed in my lifetime, the text restricts new findings. The God that man writes about does not want man to focus on humanity alone, because of mans greed to control society for personal gain and power. Followers are only told to obey the text, or an invisable entity. So obey it and bring these past beliefs into your future and kindly see what it does to your future. This world void of any Gods would speak with one voice of humanity as one human race. As it is now the seperation causes war and death, and is done on purpose by the cause of beliefs other then humankind. Seperate belief closes the minds of man and it's only written text.

  • Levap

    Joseph 10

    "Osiris was a mythological character...on the other hand Jesus was a historical character..."

    Actually not, he was as real as santa claus or shrek for that matter. There is NO MENTION of jesus in non religious history work of people who actually lived during that time. There might been a guy whos name was jesus as it is now a days among many hispanics, but he wasn'rt any differnt than others. All religions were a cult before gone mainstream, its worth to remember. And before go mainstream there should be an army of fanatics willing to do anything, kill, rape, torture if not others then themselfs. Specialy if there is a jews involved as it is with christianity and islam. They came from the same root; judaism, christianity and islam and called Abrahamic religions but in the movie you, or at least J, get an illusion that there was two separat accounts one from muslim one from christians when in fact they just adapt what was alreasy there, some parts were erased some added and it is still going on whith countless sects on both sides.

    Anyway its all rubbish, big pile of s.it and should be treated is what it is. Its desturbs me to see young children sitt in a class rum and lissen to this crap like its all fact based, J mean they should get both sides of story and someone should explain to them that its a belife thing, there is nothing certain, if you want to belive then its up to you but bare in mind, this stories are not for real. Or best of all is to forbeed this type of religion education and leave only education about religions.

    And round up, as it looks now and based of what we know there is no more aggresive, violent and disturbing mainstream cult (religion) than islam, anyone who claim that islam is a peace religion whant to decive or just got it wrong. Now J'm not saying that islam did more damage and left more victims then christianity thruought the history, its hard to say who have victory, but islam is far more blood thirsting.

    Be sanity with you...

  • RH

    To Kurrt,

    I don't think we will get anywhere if we keep bringing up new points instead of actually replying to one another.

    You mentioned many more things.

    Firstly, that religion divides humanities attention from bettering ourselves. This division leads to war.

    I think you are greatly mistaken. If it were not for morality, whose only foundation that transcends "I just feel its right" is a belief in God, Humans would continue to act selfish/to further personal interest. As for the minority that continues to "do good for the sake of good", they would be quickly overpowered. Because, if you don't believe in God but do good "because it feels good", then you have no basis for telling another person that stealing is wrong "because it feels wrong to me" because it "feels right to THAT PERSON" and as "everyone is equal" your and their view are EQUAL and both are thus "relatively" right.

    Therefore, on the contrary, belief in no God or organized religion simply becomes another belief. This other belief may be that money is the goal, or personal fulfillment, or being happy. Basically, the belief in "everyone wants the best but does it in their own way". and if you don't believe in a superior authority, then all ways are acceptable. After all, who is to judge?

    It is religion that moves attention away from the self, towards the greater humanity. Have you not read the Quran, which contains verses beginning with "Oh you who believe", as well as those that begin "Oh humanity!". Teachings that permeate in many religions, such as charity, kindness, sacrifice...are these not calling away from selfishness towards contribution? Again, this is no way denies people who have used religious teachings for evil. So has the concept of money. And love. And "bringing freedom to others".

    Anything, any concept, even the birth of an idea, DIVIDES. Just being an individual DIVIDES. That is true. But if we go by your logic, then we must make a leap and say anything that DIVIDES leads to bloodshed.

    I think that is a huge leap, and a very simplistic view of life. ex. Family brings a certain number of people together, who love each other. Does that mean that the institution of family by definition means that the people hate everyone else? Of course not.

    Lastly, examining previous "Godless" (in quotations because in reality God, which is the one we are most devoted to, can be replaced by anything, such as money, fame, pride... Everyone has something they are most devoted to) governments have faired in "bringing a peaceful world". The graves of the victims stand witness to their "peace".

  • Steve

    There is no Jesus Christ in Islam. Hazrat Isa is NOT Jesus. Oh and neither of them ever existed.

  • Hesus

    @ RH

    You are mistaken that without organized belief society would deteriorate because wrong values would take the place of god. In a secular society the state has laws that everyone has to adhere to. If not there are consequences. And we have many many rules.

    Of course it is very effective deterrent for doing socially unacceptable deeds if you are convinced that someone is looking at you all the time.

    Well sorry to say but that is more true in Europe and States than elsewhere cause you have cameras on every corner and your conversations over the phone are recorded.

    What differs is social norms or morals. They are set in place not by a deity but mortal men in every case. To the outside observer each society has strange customs, rules that by their standards seem immoral.

    Humans are social beings but in order to coexist each of us has to give up a certain amount of freedom for the benefit of the whole. Most basic common denominator is live and let live or to put it another way your freedom ends when your actions have negative consequences on others.

    Look at your culture and ask yourself which rules should be kept and which are just repressive, harmful and obsolete.

  • Kurrrt

    @Steve (let em' have it gently, their well learned Dark Age lessons can't be dismissed and new ones comprehended so quickly, as you can see how fast they hate new logical understandings) Anyway--> Have the greatest 2011 ever.

  • Syntaxfree

    I once had a similar debate when I was a boy. You see, I saw Santa(peace be upon him) at the Southpark Mall and my friend swore to me that he sat on Santa's(peace be upon him) lap on that very same day and time at the Galleria Mall. We've been arguing feverishly ever since. As if, the one true Santa Clause(peace be upon him) would really go to the Galleria Mall.

  • Steve

    @Kurrrt
    Right about that my friend.

    Happy new year to you too.

  • koolhommie

    i agree with RH. The fact that a thing may be right for a person according to his customs/beliefs, it may be wrong according to another. This is where we need an authority which is superior to all, which in our case is no other than our creator. This is where religious laws and customs come into play. They help us to clearly distinguish between right and wrong. it would be useless for us arguing on points one thinks are right or wrong.
    It is surprising that people base their views as shown by the media and inspite of all the material we have (books, internet etc) which are known to be true, people still accept methologies and myths portrayed by the media

  • Kurrrt

    The very name Jesus wasn't used for a persons name 2000 years ago, so perhaps Emanuel is the person of interist in ancient Jerusalem. I'm not an expert and kind of find it very hard to comprehend the fact that the extreme amount of all that Jesus information was validated by readers who know the bible was written hundreds of years after Jesus's death. And written by 40 authors. Using the understanding that no one walked along with Jesus taking notes while he spoke. I'll just have to pass on the authanticity. New understandings find Jesus information as just a medafor of ancient times. Put your faith in the power of modern day information, not the Dark Age times of deciet and trickery.

  • Joedirt

    Thanks for posting, very informative.

  • james white

    I have nothing to do with riligon , but here i think bible is just 2000 years old mumbo jumbo, which has been changed by different people at different time. While quran makes some sense, but it doesnt matter:P

  • james white

    I have nothing to do with riligon , but here i think bible is just 2000 years old mumbo jumbo, which has been changed by different people at different time.And Jesus who used to eat,sleep, walk, go to toilet like all other human beings how can he be the Son of God or God.While quran makes some sense, but it doesnt matter for me:P

  • Kurrrt

    Perhaps the information in the Naj Hammadi Manuscript (which christians want destroyed) which tells the Jesus story centuries before, which predates his birthday would help followers to fully further understand "The Greatest STORY Ever Told".
    The amount of note takers Mr.Jesus had 2000 years ago following him around must have had massive amounts of pencils and paper, or whatever they wrote with for ancient times. Because there sure is an extraordinary amount of text in which those paid scribes had to copy. Also says just about the same subject matter as the note takers of earlier egyptian "Horus"... Sort of like Mr. Dan Browns novels. Thats if you believe any of it to be any truth, who knows I'm no expert. The concern today is 2011+ not the Dark Ages.

  • wali

    Not the same faith Only One faith came from God The truth about Jesus(Isa Ibn Maryam)The truth is known by it's evidence To learn more see Bart Erhman the most knowledgeable Scholar in Christianity In My view. Christians claim That Jesus was a deity to be worshiped as a God, also they differ with each other some of them say He's God's Son, still an object of worship. Jews Disbelieve in him and Slander His Mother; two Extremes which Islam is the most balenced

  • Arthur Florida

    At 56, I think more than I did when I was a pipsqueak(1-35years of age) When I was 35-50, I was in the conquering mode. (Go get 'em! Convert the world to Jesus! Jesus Christ was the ultimate answer to all of man's ills. Then at 50 or so, I started to see that people in the United States are trying and struggling to follow gods from India, the Middle East and Mr. Money(greed, capitalism and other stupid stuff that does not make life any better.) Then, at 52, I said if only, all of mankind would get on the same page and just follow 1 god, the supreme authority, even though we can't see this being, maybe the world would be a better place. Maybe there would be less deception and lies. Maybe the young boys and girls will be left alone and not sexually abused by clergy. Think about life like this. Here you are naked, in a jungle, picking berries and a very hungry carnivore bestowes its eyes upon YOU! Delicious, he thinks. Fear, you think. He has to satisfy his hunger like you have to satisfy yours. But, it looks like it's your time to be the tasty morsel for this very hungry beast. Shall you pray in tongues and hope it scares him? Maybe, you should just lay hands on him and pray that god's spirit of peace will subdue him and you can share some berries with him and you will be friends forever until you both die. This is not ficticious. This is only one of many factual stories from around the world.

    In real life, no person walks around hopinng to be wrong. Everyone loves to know they are right. We all have brains that fire off differently. Some have strong abilities to be very logical and scientific. Others are ruled by their emotions and desire to be loved. There will never be a balance between all the people. I hope one day, all the terror of war and physical abuse comes to an end. There really is no need for it.

    We as a people feel that we must KILL those that impose unwanted violence or death upon others. Actually, I think elephants think like that as well. We must understand that society everywhere has created people that think in harmful ways because they did not get a balanced dose of love and care throughout their lives. As a result, gods and religions are created by men to fill the gap. Stories of old are always honored because we fear being wrong by thinking on our own. A weak mind is always confounded by the question "What if I am wrong?" So, based on that, man gives up his right to think and takes the easy way out and chooses to "BELIEVE."

    Now, permit me to comment on Islam. To me, a Greek/Irish man that "grew up catholic" until someone scared the hell into me and I became a useless pentecostal, I feel that there is an amazing science to Islam. All the things they do and how they do it have to do with math and science. This does a work on the mind. This creates a discipline in a man's life that we all need to some extent. Tell me, if you are a normal guy that loves to do good unto others and you love your woman and children and it all keeps going round and round, do you feel real good in your mind? I do! I love a clear conscious. I see the smile on people faces when a good deed is done toward them. This is the essence of life.

    As I read what is happening in Iraq with all the suicide bombers and car bombs killing what used to be their friends, I am greatly concerned about humanity and our belief systems. These are only ideas. You cannot kill ideas but you can kill your brother. No matter how many people are killed in Al Quaeda and all the rest, these men that do bad things will go on feeling bad about themselves and want to hurt others. This must stop. These arguments over ideas must stop. Love must prevail. Love can build communities. Lov e strengthens the family and the individual.

    Scholars are only people that focus on the facts they find in their research. What if they miss some of the most profound and revealing documents? Then they only have a part of the truth.

    Discover life and all its beauty for yourself. Learn to love your fellow man. Learn to communicate. Stop criticizing and putting others down. They taught us to be very judgemental in Bible School. They taught us to be mean and strict and to not have a heart when it came to getting others saved. This was disgusting behavior on the part of the college. I

  • Arthur Florida

    Oops, I judge them as having no heart for humanity. They taught us to believe that if someone refused salvation, "the free gift," that they were rejecting almighty god and therefore I should have no part in their lives. You see, people became a source of income for the church monster. A source of income for the church movement. Do anything to get them involved in the church and then we get the ten plus percent out of them for the rest of their lives and we can go on building our big church mansions.

    I am sorry people, but it all made me very sick and crazy. I encourage you to really think about what you follow.

  • Kurrrt

    The old enslaving dark passages of the dark age is brought into mans future to only further ignore the truth of great new understandings, and logical ways of thinking. Only a wonderful life and a glorious future can be obtained without those enslaving commands to obey 2000 year old non-existing entities. A good start is by simply being the kindest human being you can be towards all of humanity, and always.

  • Arthur Florida

    You know Kurrrt, no matter how many times we share the simple message of compassion and love, new people still keep getting hooked by violent belief systems. One very odd message that my mind received was that the violence mentioned in all the books were actually referring to the ideas in our own mind. I know when I deal with issues of my past, it is not a very comfortable process. But when we ultimately have to let go of ways that are self-destructive, the benefits are "glorious." Almost heavenly as spoken in the Bible and the Qur'an. Our battle is always in the mind. We have to decide which thoughts get the upper hand. Hopefully, we choose peace most of the time. Of course, marriage is a very big testing ground. Take care and have a great day Kurrrt.

  • Kurrrt

    Yes sir, I see, you've been here on the planet long enough to also understand and then understand even further, I commend you for that achievement. It's perhaps also about maintaining and understanding the killer instinct we all share, thats tied into our DNA. We're born survivors and for example we kill animals with no remorse for food. Take away (surgically) those two strands of DNA and that killer instinct disappears and then would allow a greater race to highly evolve, even then perhaps into the stars. Until then, heck it's convincing the world of the tactics of hidden dark forces within our society which interferes with our natural evolving, and the restricting of new approaching technical understandings. This must be kindly taught to the world, which is about to become enslaved by our governments, who these controlling dictators evedently have no belief in any god in the first place, but project one. They know better but don't act on their knowing. Their so wraped up within so many evils it's going to be a major chore to fix. (but I'm no expert). At this point and time I'd like off of this planet, ha-ha...Thank you your very kind........

  • RH

    Hi everyone,

    To Hesus and Kurrrt: I was not arguing for or against secular society. I am stating that there is no basis of morality except a belief in God/a superior authority. Meaning, that if you don't believe in God or a superior authority, then there is nothing in your world that is absolute. That includes morality. In that "belief system" (where one does not believe in a transcending authority), there are few options: Anarchy. Two: that we take the words of other men as laws. Both lead to the same result.

    Let me explain. If you take the words of men as laws (men here meaning society), then you cannot logically enforce them. Because to you the law is "fair" because "it feels right", but may not be "fair" to another. Ex. Stealing is wrong to you. But to them it's "not bad". And since you both don't believe in a superior authority, then no one is more right than the others. Can you imagine the type of society you are calling for?

    To Kurrrt: There is no "hate" gene or "fight" gene. We are more than DNA. And if you are a Muslim, you would also beleive in the soul. But even if the scientists who do not believe that know better than looking for such a gene. In fact, the survival instinct is a culmination of many different factors in the body, and if it were removed, I do not think we would live.

    I am proposing a different worldview. That Islam came to free creation of enslavement to other creation by enslavement to the Creator. We become free when we realize that all are equal, and that the ultimate purpose is serving God, not anything or anyone.

    To Arthur Florida:
    Your post reminds me of this verse:
    And if your Lord had so willed, He could surely have made mankind one community (following one religion only i.e. Islâm), but they will not cease to disagree” (Quran 11:118)

    With regards to the inner struggle to stay on the right path, that is called the greater jihad.

  • Jesus in another guise

    @RH you have no idea about Islam I can see go and watch the links on post 165 on the conspiracy documentary called "missing links" and then come back and repeat what you have just said.

  • Kurrrt

    Perfect example of the enslavement caused by someone projecting a text book God, in which has no physical existence. If an intelligent being does enter our society from a distant advanced world and asks you if they may be accuainted with your higher power, would you say it's a one God and it doesn't exist? Invisible? What would this higher race think of YOUR level of intelligence? Science isn't practiced or allowed by gods because God doesn't want you to gain higher knowledge, they need you to obey them, not scientific facts. I'm not an expert just aware of dictatorship and many text book Gods written by those who have a need to control their society and perhaps envolk them to gather others in numbers and to also perhaps even kill for them, for gods reason of insanity. The focus on humanity is taken away by made up gods all over the planet. Their written agendas are to simply control, obey, and command the people. The focus on the inhabitence of this planet gets deverted by Gods who don't even exist. So the direction of focus on gods simply goes into the invisible emptyness. When the true logical focus on ourselves gets further away from us, who truely needs this conscious focus to evolve. Awaken to it.

  • Kurrrt

    Follow your text book leader, and what you are told. Void of any logical personal thought, so be it. I kindly thank you for sharing your belief and who you follow. Have a great life.

  • Hesus

    Hi RH

    Well I would agree with you if I thought that Allah or any other god for that matter existed.

    I agree with you that morality is not absolute. And I welcome that. Because of this there will always be some difference of opinion. No big deal. As long as there is mutual respect and peaceful coexistence it is perfectly fine.

    Not to state the obvious but there are as many moral codes as there are cultures/religions. My opinion is that most of them intersect in basic principles that even atheists will agree upon. Those are the absolutes and the rest is formed by the people or dogma. I prefer people.

  • Ahmed

    Prayer is a ordinary thing... you pray on everywhere it is clean. Killing innocent(jews) is lie. We saved jews from Europe. We lived with them for centuries. Our prophet had a jew neighbour. Muslims are very poor and they have their own hitler,mussolini. Nobody cares Christians or Jews. They just try to earn their life. They care their families, countries. All of them is not Muslim(normally). But they live on important lands. That's the problem. About Prophet Jesus Aprobably There are 128.000 prophets. We know 25 or 28 names. You know 2000 years ago but it can be older. There is a difference between your God and our God. Yours needs a son, ours dont need anything. And God gave manual books for best machine(human) for physically and spiritually. And God says If you go wrong way, I will punish you. Because God gave us too many speciality. So run from darkness to light. If you waste your abilities and specialities for wrong things, It would be a big crime. God is justice. We say "I".God has the real "I", not us. Being needs one god or billions( it's stupid to think)

  • Ahmed

    Mary is not the only woman in Quran. 25 or 28 prophet names are in the 128.000.We have woman saints.Angels dont have sex.No ability to sin.Man makes everything like himself.The aliens in movies are almost like human.Greek,indian,egyptian gods are humans. No ability to sin.In Islam your sin is yours. Nobody even our prophet has no autherity for that. And dont think them in the concepts of today.that's unfair.

  • Ahmed

    Man said that a god in human form is necessary so that God understand our situation.Problem is here.The concept of God.God learns!!!.God does not learn, or progress. there is a bad ending so he gives all responsibilty to us.God is justice.So human is very precious you cant hurt him/her

  • Ahmed

    Hadiths can be full of metaphors so that people in the past and us will understand what they mean.This world is a test,not final.so dont wait the answers.We say when time passes,Quran becomes younger.

  • Kurrrt

    Your only asking for suffering when someone suggests to bring the horror of any Dark Age religion into the future of humanity. And after all ready seeing what it's done. Old days of dictators controlling commanding to obey only them, and murdering and enslaving perhaps shoud be kept in the past. The evolving of mankind as one race needs to enter a wonderful future, but will be corrupt using ancient methods of horrible beliefs and non-existing entities that causes human suffering, and even worsens. Problems with separate religions preaching un-logical methods, thinking there's a one God somewhere in the emptiness of, of? All religions are invalid within the wonders of our peaceful endeavor of a great future with a focus on humanity alone.
    The dark forces are quite successful and happy and in great joy with forcing the horror of their hell and religions, because just the consciousness of that enslaves your spirit for only their use of your soul, if that's what makes you happy, so be it. You should understand why they do it, and their purpose to destroy your soul. Why further enslave man? Look around and wake up and see what separate religions are doing to the world. Their religious method of dumbing you down is restricting your ability to advance, who in their right mind would allow the inhabitants of this planet elsewhere? Even a god does not have a god, whats that tell you? I'm not an expert but It's most likely the illogical belief in the invisible, and following ancient dictators text, which further and deeper destroys our future. Simply look around and see religions wrath unfolding it's messages of hate all around you. Stop it, by being kind to all of man, void of religion. Turn religion into humanity alone, without any outside forces. It's 2011 (not BC)

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=693126395 Mary Martin

    I am a Roman Catholic. I have been asked by a Muslim acquaitance, many years ago, whether I believed that Jesus was Divine and I answered then to me it didn't matter. It was Jesus's life and not his death that was the touchstone of my Faith. Unfortunately that it not the truth for many. I am very glad to have seen this film and I am planning to ask one of my neighbours to tell me more about Esau(?) son of Miriam of the Koran-- I too wish to look for commonalities to bridge the quagmire of history and the propaganda of the Present. I do not wish to debate, only to learn. Peace be upon us all. Amen.

  • Sieben Stern

    ... you might as well as argue over the color of the sky.

    all this energy over something that doesn't exist. it is so jaw dropping irrelevant.

  • Sieben Stern

    "atheist have their own reality"

    yeah, it's called REALITY. no floaty man required.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_M6F3RJVEWJ24QKMCHFNVK7ADVE Winston Smith

    such propaganda
    The 'War on Terror' is farce. 7000 times more Americans die every year from Aspirin than they do from 'terrorism. ! The entire thing is a scam and 9/11 could only have been an inside job. Or can someone explain how the top 10 of the N Tower crushed the bottom 9/10ths with absolutely no jolt? In fact the antenna is seen to accelerate as everything beneath it is blown to bits.

    How do you tell the difference between a gravity driven collapse and a demolition>? Look for the jolt. That is what any physicist will tell you.

  • His Forever

    The difference between Asprin and terrorism is that I can choose to take Asprin or not! Being Murdered via an act of terror is NOT a voluntary thing! Even ONE victim is too much.

    Peace to you.

  • adilrye

    LOL

  • http://profiles.google.com/littlelucky90 creepa super

    im a muslim
    and i love jesus .. he is a messenger ..

    allah (god) can create any thing . he create adam with out mother or father. jesus only with out a father .

  • http://twitter.com/MuniraAminah M. Aminah

    Just i want to say that it's not true that muslims believe Jesus (a.s.) will come to destroy jews as it's mentioned above, actually even in the documentary no one says that.
    We muslims believe in all the prophets, they came with the same message: to worship the only one God (s.w.t) and to obbey His commands, that is the meaning of islam.

  • joe31

    I believe he died as a martyr...do not say those who die in the name of god dead,they are alive but ,you percieve not...seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave.christian do not understand why we say he is a muslem, the root word of islam is salam peace one of the names of god,there for a true muslem is one who surenders to peace ,and know one can denie christ was surrender to gods pease,at the same time muslem forget that it was a chritian king that gave shelter to the first muslem in a chritian land ,not pagan, and when he died ,the prophet pbuh,said he died a muslem,even though his practice was not the same in its outer form,just like jesus pbuh, the king of the jews,also as a muslem o do not beleive in that imposter theorory,according to historyian this originally came out from the drew muslems who also invented assasians,its a shame that this has spread so wildly...jesus own words in the quran are pease be upon me on the day I was born and thae day im raised alive...so when did he die peace from the cradle to the grave. may gods peace be with you salam aleykum. shalom.

  • joe31

    I also want to mention that christ himself mention in the gospel about the last days,that many will lay claim to him,he will tell them I never knew you,i believe this belongs to certian chritian sect as well as certian muslems, on the cross my god my god why has though abandomed me, muslem might reconise th s hadith,a time will come when you think god had abandoned you but he does not abandon you,if this is true to true muslems this was true to christ,,christ himself in the gospel says to the apostle worship my god and your god,and he asigned one of the apostle the keys to heaven who you bind in heaven will be bind and who you loose in heaven willl be loose,you think everyone would be running after this apostle, the bible also metion how the comforter will confirm him,when the prophet pbuh as a child and and angle layed him down and split open his chest to remove a clot from his heart,he first said after that,every child cries out when he is born for they are touch by satin comming into this world except mary and jesus,they are the only two born pure,(another historical oppresion of mary and her status pbuh.

  • mmkhan

    Allah created Adam ( The synonym used in Quran for Mankind ) that means Allah created Mankind.

    One of the important injunctions that clearly come through in Chapter 19 of AlQuran is that God makes laws as He wills in the World of command and enforces them in the World of Creation i.e. the Universe. Then, He never changes them. The grand empire of human learning, development, invention, science and technology would have failed to come off ground if God´s physical laws in the Universe were to keep changing. Pregnancy and childbirth require the unison of the male and the female chromosomes. God never changes His laws, therefore, the idea of a virgin birth, although popular among the Christians and the Muslims, is non-Qur´anic and absolutely erroneous

  • k1971c

    more idiotic islamic madness

  • far far

    which bit is driving you mad?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_VOJROOTM3L6K4WMBJML7N622EM Kemal Derinsu

    i think calling a faith idiotic is idiotic.
    the life and deeds of Jesus is not scientific reality.
    It is a part of the history. Hence different narration of same occurence can exists.

  • Tervaris

    Salam I do understand you do not believe in what you can not see, but if I told you that the computer that you are sitting before created it's self you would think I was the fool, so the plant,insects, microorganisms, sun, stars, and yadda, yadda, yadda, had to come from some where. Cause we would be the fool if we thought that the universe, solar system, earth, and all it's wonders just was. Even though every thing has it's purpose. It is not religion that is causeing chaos in the world it's man and his arrogance and his lustful desires. You may be a good upstanding person but what about the person that is more agresive without any guidance, that takes by force and don't give a f--k about you. What you got is trouble... trouble. Allah says in the Quran did you create yourself? The Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) said it is better to guide one person to Islam than to kill 100 in Jihad. And with this guidance there is no compulsion in religion. Holler back if you like. Salam (peace).

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Makhdoom-Safi-Ud-Din/727494006 Makhdoom Safi Ud Din

    i am a muslim from pakistan.....let me tell u the beleif of every single muslim on planet about ur jesus the christ.....for u he is just jesus the christ....for us by the order of mohammad pbuh he is syedna essa ibn maryam alaih hesalam....which means our master jesus son of mary upon them Allah mercy and blessing.. by the order of islam if one muslim just says that i beleiv in jeseus but i dont love him.....immidiately hes out of the fold of islam.... (other muslims reading this correct me if i am wrong) ....we have strict orders of Allah almighty and mohammad pbuh to honor all the prophets especially isrealy prophets and to love them also...if we dont love them all by uur heart our faith is incomplete...peace b/w u and us miss mary martin

  • avd420

    Another difference I think you missed is Americans are ignorant to the danger of one, while overly-obsessed with the danger of another.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Gl1tch Sean Leo Snyder

    it takes more energy to argue that christ and his father DON'T exist than it does to argue that they do. Any development in the darwin theory in the past few decades? In fact Darwinism is slowly slipping away. So if we didn't evolve and weren't created by God, were we brought here? If we were, I think that counts as a belief? Not to sound like an @ss but imo, atheist is another word for ignorance, or maybe ignoring?

  • http://www.facebook.com/mhazza Misho Hazza

    "screw you guys I'm going home" Eric Cartmen from South Park.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=732228011 Zach Fraser

    yea ill carry my church within me im sure god will forgive me seeing the state of mental decay the world suffers from i trust in god not people.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=732228011 Zach Fraser

    *respect my athurotar*

  • beware_of_fakes

    Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

    I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

  • Mad_ina

    I just want to learn, did Jesus claim to be God in the holy Bible?

  • mohsin mohsin

    jesus never claim i am GOD or wershp me in holy bible

  • Guest

    Was he a bouncer?

  • ajju22

    we muslims respect all prophets but we follow quran becouse quran isthe last book from got for all humankind evrybody should read quran to understand the truth of islam and the value of prophet JUSSES and the last massenger of ALLAH prophet MOHAMMED peace be upon them..plz..plz.

  • flower73

    He is the Christ, and was with the Heavenly Father when the world was created. He is the I AM. Only through Christ can we be forgiven for sin in our lives and He will come again to judge the world, for right now the world is in great sorrow for it was written in the New Testament of the things that are upon us now. So we need to invite Jesus into our lives and to ask him (alone) to be our Saviour, for he is love just like the Heavenly Father (God) - save your souls through Christ, for we are near the end. God is love and love is God and this I promise you, you will never look back.

  • Ziyan Laen

    Hear all Muslims Brothers....You Know very Well they wont believe us....
    tell them straight...your christ is not the christ in quran...do not do the mistake of getting close to to them ....they will not listen to you....If you want to prevail do not show similarities.

    According to them world is 6000 yrs old and sun revolves around earth..
    They forgot their bad past of church....THE JEWS WHO KILLED CRUCIFIED ARE MOST CLOSE TO THEM...The original bible doesnt exist...The romans would not have accepted christianity if the bible wouldnt change..Do not guide them they will no listen...The cross on which christ (peace be upon him)was crucified became a symbol....the paul who was hated as he injected pagan things...saw d cross in vision!!!...

    telll them to banish all laws as christ died for forgiveness of our sins...you can rape kill anyone

    for us we have allah,the one who forgives...just be away from them...they in ignorance...

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jose-Chachi-Garcia/100000562114114 Jose Chachi Garcia

    when JESUS was born the whole world got to know GOD!and it is through our LORD JESUS that the world will be saved.praise GOD!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Shanti-Philip/100000440906234 Shanti Philip

    BUT HE DID SAY...." NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER ACCEPT THROUGH ME..........."

  • sameh bekhit

    you wish!!!! off course you have to respect all prophets,,, we also do,, however, after God sent his own son to save the world, I don't think the world would need another prophet, so anyone who comes after Jesus and pretend that he is from God is a lier, and Jesus warned us from false massengers like your mohammed. and why would we need to read the quran when we already have God's words in the Holly Bible. any book is worthless compared to the bible.

  • Sammuel Brooks

    your the ones who wont hear, listen, or what is infinitly sad your lack of understandinding. your understanding equates to forgiveness = we can kill rape anyone. you say this because it makes a good arguement for the muslum side. Just calling out the bullshit here.

  • Sammuel Brooks

    do us a favor stay in the middle east

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_377TEPF4MMSK3EVPUDFVRIDWZM Yna

    In the end, it's not the religion who will save us but your faith and your relationship to our one and only god...They send all these prophets because during early times everything was in chaos and in no order... these prophet came to teach us the good way of living and to be more closer to God. Let's not concentrate on the traditions and rituals of every religion but pick up those good teachings they have and apply it into our daily lives... This is our true salvation...

  • paulterryburgess

    @ Snyder. Just not true. The more we understand about genetics, just re-verifies that evolution is a fact. I don't know where you are getting your findings but I would suggest you use some different sources. When fossil findings match perfectly with the genetic evolution tree, which then in turn matches perfectly with the geological evolution of the earth, which then matches with 14 different methods of carbon dating tests, it's hard to argue against these "coincidences". Maybe you don't understand the scientific process? Scientists don't just conform ideas and some findings to make an argument that fits their bias beliefs. Every argument they have must be backed up by factual evidence, then tested by thousands of peers. They must also come to the same conclusion as the original scientist. So if there is any doubt about the evidence and it's shown not to be factual in any way, then it is no longer a theory. I feel you might be ignorant and blinded by your bias.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jslovison1 Jessica Smith Lovison

    MATTHEW 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

    MARK 7:6-13 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘ This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men — the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.” He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

    LUKE 9:18-26 And it happened, as He was alone praying, that His disciples joined Him, and He asked them, saying, “Who do the crowds say that I am?” So they answered and said, “John the Baptist, but some say Elijah; and others say that one of the old prophets has risen again.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered and said, “The Christ of God.” And He strictly warned and commanded them to tell this to no one, saying, “The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.” Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost? For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.

    JOHN 5:39-47 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

    JOHN 8:56-58 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

  • Mad_ina

    Yesus pray to God/Lord/Eli/Father/Allah? (Luke 9:18-26)
    JOHN 5:44 = How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? ( only one God?)

    believe me that Jesus not God.
    I just want to learn, did Jesus claim to be God in the holy Bible? -there is no answer-
    2012/2/1 Disqus

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_5FZ3DPSUC4JM4VCX5PQVOGGBY4 jj

    theres a reason why adam could name all of gods creation and the angels could not.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_5FZ3DPSUC4JM4VCX5PQVOGGBY4 jj

    look up alll the science is back up or discovered in the quran,do correct research,the quran is not a different revelation but the last sent by god,....look how we produce creation then reproduce it.(quran)

  • Ross Payant

    My lies are better than your lies!

  • tjnorth

    wow this is not a comment lol

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Sharron-Miller/100001440886777 Sharron Miller

    Yes when he replied I AM. The learned men of the Jewish temple understood what he meant. When Moses met with God at the burning bush. God stated his name was I AM. So Jesus stated the same.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Sharron-Miller/100001440886777 Sharron Miller

    Yes, Jesus did claim his Kingship. He stated me and the father are one. Which means if you see the son you also see the father.

  • HankEpanky

    If Jesus even claimed to be Lord, why doesn't he just plainly say, "I am God worship me", instead of beating around the bush. In none of the English translations of the Bibile: King James, NIV, Catholic Bible, the New King James, etc is any such translation come close to a very simple statement. When you look at the council of Nicea, then you'll begin to see when Jesus became God.

  • whateveryo

    "Enos was the son of Seth, and Seth was the son of Adam, and ADAM WAS THE SON OF GOD." [Luke 3:38]

  • pkumm

    I want to say that there is one true GOD...the giver of life and through HIS sacrafice we are set free if we so choose. I have read both sources one is about an intimate relationship of LOVE and forgiveness (which I know I need).
    About 578 years before Islam came along, Christians were warned against Islam by both Jesus and the Apostle Paul. Jesus warned us about the many false prophets who would follow Him (Matthew 16:11-12) . Paul warned us when he wrote:

    “But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a Gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to hell!” (Galatians 1:8).

    Jesus said; "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." John 8:24
    Jesus also predicted the current dilemma of Muslim intolerance and fanaticism. He warned that the day was likewise coming when religious zealots will kill Christians and think they are offering a service to God (John 16:2-4).

    Comparison;
    It is interesting to compare Jesus and Muhammad according to the Qur'an. Jesus did miracles (Surah 3:49; 5:110), but Muhammad did not (Surah 13:8: "thou art a warner [of coming divine judgment] only"; also 6:37; 6:109; 17:59 and 17:90-93).

    Jesus was sinless (Surah 3:46), but Muhammad sinned and needed forgiveness (Surah 40:55: "Ask forgiveness of thy sin"; 42:5: "Ask forgiveness for those on the Earth"; 47:19: "Ask forgiveness for thy sin" ; 48:2: "that Allah may forgive thee of thy sin").

    Jesus was called "the Messiah" by Allah in the Qur'an. And Jesus was even born of a virgin (Surah 3:45-57)! Yet Muhammad who had many wives, and concubines, and participated in many attacks on innocent caravans and villages, and insisted on booty from these raids -- is supposed to be the greatest of the prophets.

    If you have a wife or a daughter would you trust JESUS or Muhammed to be locked behind closed doors????

  • niceboy404

    You have to read this in context. Jesus is merely describing the path to god is through him - i.e the true (spiritual) way is my way which is gods way - we are one (in terms of truth and not in a literal sense)

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    The Word(s) of God... the only book clubs that cause rape, murder, and fanaticism. I think it's time ignorant people of the world read more enlightening stuff... like a textbook ;)

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/OGEDQQVGPTY2QL7CBLGVNA3JVQ superman

    if you are one with god what is it easyer to say i am god right now or iam like god right now . if you were to understand the one-ness of god it would be easyer to say iam god right now . i think this is the way christ had made his point because at that time he was in god and one with god what else would be said fully knowing his father was totally with him as one it only makes sence to say i am god right now as gods spirit had been flowing in him

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    You know who else said they were the portal to God?

    David Koresh, Charles Manson, Marshall Applewhite, & Jim Jones to name a very few...

  • niceboy404

    Maybe your a little too sarcastic for debates.

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    I wasn't sarcastic.

  • supermassivedec

    the romans made the bible everything in it is lies they all so killed jesus and im not muslim sayin dis i was born o roman cathloic i follow no religon now because i understand why religon has been around since written history and b4 it the only way kings queens and now govermants keep contral. religon=power=war u dont believe me go through history from eygpt on you will see the pattern

  • supermassivedec

    the quran was made for the exat same reason as the bible religon=power=war ther is no other reason for there excistance people shuld wake up and c faith is not about following some book writing by some prick who knew about as much as we do now

  • nebra

    ok my opinion is that you cant take all this literally. in 2000 year period nothing can stay preserved, the same. so when two sides fight both with different opinions they are probably both wrong. you cannot seriously believe in adam and eve and i heard there was a talking snake somewhere there in the garden, cmon...those were stories probably to explain what they couldnt understand, if...other option is they are completly made up.if you think logically...if there is only one creator why are there so many gods? did you ever ask yourselve why do we, humans throughout thousands of years, strive up to gods? i mean its more psychological then anything else. what is that feeling you get...when you know something is there but you cant explain it so you say its god. but you cant read the bible and say thats all there is and will ever be. it doesnt work that way...we have much to discover about ourselves as human beings.

  • nebra

    could be yes that royal famelies kept control over the people. and at that time it was probably more easier cuz there wasnt so much people as now. either they did it through religion or by force.

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    It's hard for me to believe in either the bible or qu'ran. Religion has been around for 1,000's of years, basing itself on little factual content at all. Holding prophets and messiahs up like they are divine is just wrong imo. I think both books as well as the books of other religions are quite unnecessary to one's belief.

    In the mind of a believer: why does one need a book (religion) to tell them how to believe in their creator(s)? These books offer no more insight/truth than one's own brain gives them. But what it seems to do is put a label onto people. Labels create separation, separation breeds hate/violence/destruction onto those that are not on the same 'label.' Within Christianity, I've seen with my own eyes the hatred/contempt one sect has for another. You think of the opposing sect and instantly you think of stereotypical traits about that sect. When fundamentally, all are the same, all have belief. A person should not be judged by their belief but ONLY by their character.

    Religion opens the door to hated of others... Christians, Jews, and Muslims and all others are fundamentally the same. They hold faith in creation. This fact alone should surpass in importance the trivial differences of each religion. But instead, religion is hard-coded to separate groups of people.

    If a Creator is so grand, is so all-knowing, is all-loving and merciful, do you think he/she/they/it would agree with such a separation of faiths?

    Imo, if you believe in a creator, join hands with your fellow believers and stop with the unnecessary separation which should be quite irrelevant to your faith in God(s). It has caused so much harm to humanity in the past and continues to do so today. When the man-made concept of religion is dropped, we will have much more peace and love upon the earth.

  • http://www.facebook.com/hussein.nasir Nasir Hussien

    why have all the unnecessary words, the doc is good,,it showed the diff btw the jesus in the Quran and the bible,,as well as the similarities,
    why would you talk about a book that is with you ,,a book that u can access,, a book that is every conner on the globe yet you have never opened it, you have never seen what it contains, if you want to criticise anything,,first take a look,,and see what it contains,,The Quran, is the book i am talking about,

  • Malsh67

    Its funny how many people are judging the Quran without actually reading it :)

    and did anyone ever ponder over why many scientists are converting to Islam? is it cuz they're out of their mind? really? i dont think so...

    Read more about science and Islam; you will begin realizing how divine this holy book is due to the amount of scientific information in it.

    do you know that numerous CONTEMPORARY science discoveries have been mentioned in the Quran 1400 yrs ago?

    1. Mentioned in the Quran are baby's specific development stages during pregnancy.
    2. Mentioned in the Quran is an accurate description of the movements of planets.
    3. Mentioned in the Quran is the fact that different entities of water (ex. sea and river) have an invisible barrier that separates them from mixing with each other.

    yeah but why bother,

    there sure was a guy 1400 yrs ago who knew how a baby is exactly formed along the 9 months of pregnancy although he didn't have the technology... and yes people somehow are assumed to have known that planets orbit the earth in specific calculated paths just by "imagining" their existence. as for the seas and river, I bet a drunk pirate unravelled the mystery behind them...

    Open your eyes

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=571587250 Ayman Abouhattab

    God says that he is the one who provided Quan and he is the one capable of protecting the Quran so it's safe.
    There is only one God Allah and to explain it,it will take long time but if you need to understand I ll b glad to help.

  • nebra

    so from that your point is that god exists?

  • nebra

    you see just what you said..."God says"...where did he said that? when did he said that? your believe is merely traditional, i dont mean no disrespect but did you ever ask yourself why did we started to believe in gods, if you consider evolution of all living things? my personal opinion is that we are gods, were just not perceiving it in that way, yet.

  • DLIES

    sow islam says the new testement is a lie

  • Tania Conway

    I loved the documentary. One day we will all know the 100% truth of God, until then i think we should keep our faith and live according to what God has given us. If its the scriptures of the Bible,Quran,ect..keep your faith..only you know what God has given you. What he has given you is special and from him. Maybe one day we can stop judging one another and trying to expect people to believe what we believe. God sees who we are and what we are about. God created us for a reason and i dont believe its to destroy one another. I invision its to love one another and accept people for who they are no matter what religion they are. We are all unique in some way. Just because we dont believe what someone else has to say doesnt mean that they are bad people. They are only different then us. One day maybe we will all come together to love God and stop all the judging.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/ONZHA6SKIWCO5KHTOXHPQSKQQU Rifst Mane

    Once True Faith one understood there will be a searing pain of empathy as well as discontent over those who has yet to understand the rightful self profession of the 'created', us on the ONLY ONENESS of the Creator God Almighty. That's the truth, not the misled view on the non acceptance of the wide array varieties of human existence. Loving and concern of one another does not necessarily rightfully include in accepting and acknowledging the folly of themselves and of their endings since we have learnt that even the best of the unbeliever (against the initial assumption of our heart) like Abu Talib the Prophet's Uncle and staunch Protector to his dying days, unfortunately will not be spared the torment of hellfire. His punishment shall be of the most minimal for humankind as was revealed for of all sins men committed, it's blasphemy God Do Not forgive (without punishment and eventual admittance). So we wish honesty in self along with the light of Truth. Peace... (and remember the enemy of Mankind, Satan has pledged his eternal enmity and war against Man in the face of God)

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/ONZHA6SKIWCO5KHTOXHPQSKQQU Rifst Mane

    I understand what you mean, especially some kind of diseased corrupted logic and belief such people like the pagan romans or the greeks have harboured and lived up to. This is what is degrading and will ultimately self-destroy humanity. But to be a believer one still must also strive to best extent to uphold the Truth especially against the foolish rebels !! the follower of the avowed enmiter of man, the consumers of self desire and greed and evil envy, For the Lights of the Lord is for all Mankind. May Allah Protects, Chooses and Triumph us the believers over their evil! GOD is the GREATEST.

  • http://www.facebook.com/lovegabrielsen Dominik John Love-Gabrielsen

    he said 'worship no church in my name'
    his words. he warned deeply against it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/lovegabrielsen Dominik John Love-Gabrielsen

    love it hahahahha

  • http://www.facebook.com/lovegabrielsen Dominik John Love-Gabrielsen

    this is true, although the details here are in question.

    my friend:)

    and some of this (u wrote) is muddled too of course.

  • http://www.facebook.com/lovegabrielsen Dominik John Love-Gabrielsen

    well also for knowledge, understanding, vision and discovery.

  • Jeff B

    He who adds to the prophecy ( of Revelation) the plagues will also be added to him...Jesus coming in judgment in 70 AD was to those who refused to accept Christ and continued to live under the ceremonial Law of Moses...the temple was destroyed because there was no longer a need for it...the addition of Christ's second coming as some future event beyond 70 AD is the plague of which Revelation spoke...that is why Christians remain in conflict with Islam....we remain under that plague even today....

  • http://www.endtimesandwar.com Joshua Marks

    I thought this was an excellent portrayal of very sensitive and complex "religious" material. The doc focused on highlighting the meaningful issues of the spiritual and theological rather than our lowest common denominators of history and religion.

  • Karen P. Haggett

    Thank you Tania, We all need to respect one another. You can judge a tree by the fruit it bears. We don't need anymore Dogma in the world. We only need to Love one another. This is the message we all need to abide by. Not more I'm right and your wrong.The moment you say us and them. You create a division. This is not what G-- wants. We are all G--'s children. No parent who is loving wants to see their children fighting.

  • dewflirt

    Morning Karen, just curious as to why so many people now blank out letters from the word god. I would understand if you were trying to avoid using his name but 'god' is more of a job title. Also, it doesn't really stop people saying it in their heads when they see it, probably easier to suck a fruit pastel! ;)

  • Karen P. Haggett

    Thanks dewflirt, The answer is that in Judaism it is a sign of respect not to write G-D's name.The concern is that the word may be written on something they may later be thrown away or destroyed. Judaism prohibits the erasing or defacing of the name of G-d. So very devout Jews do not write the name if there is a possibility it may be destroyed or defaced. I am not Jewish, but I have respect for the beliefs of all religions and the people who find solace and comfort from them.So I try to learn about other people's religions and cultures. I try not to offend if possible.

  • a_no_n

    so first of all, if Prophecy exists, then you are denying the existence of free will. the two concepts cannot co-exist as they are direct contradictions of each other.

    The temple was destroyed because the Pagan Romans showed up after being forced to lay siege and recapture Jerusalem from the Jews. (see Josephus for the ACTUAL story).

    finally, my first point again, you can either have free will, or you can have prophecies. You can't have both.

    lastly christians have not always been in conflict with Islam, all across North africa and the Levant Muslims were able to live in relative peace with the coptic and otrthadox christians as well as the jews (who certainly had an easier time there than they ever did in europe).
    it wasn't until the catholics showed up in Constantinople on the first crusade that things started getting nasty.

  • a_no_n

    except satan isn't actually in the bible.

    he was a medieval invention used to mock and smear the gods of the old religions.

    the only appearances by a being that could be understood as satan are all in the old testament, in which he is never identified as satan.

  • a_no_n

    You should research the Moorish Caliphate of Iberia, it'll blow your mind to find out the things they were doing.

    they had developed advanced surgical techniques, and produced scalpels and other medical equipment that we would use today, and had ventilated wards dedicated to specific illnesses in actual hospitals. They did it at a time when most christians thought carving a crucifix in your skull would exorcise the demons of sickness away.

    It's said that if the Moors had stayed in Spain then the renaissance would never have happened...because it wouldn't have needed to as the Moors were already going through it in 1000AD.

    But the reconquista happened and the moors were kicked out of Spain, the Caliphate of Cordoba was broken apart and humanity was set back by about 700 years.

  • a_no_n

    comparing both sources is fine...but have you tried comparing them both to contemporary sources?

    Here's what contemporary sources have to say about Jesus:

  • a_no_n

    lol, you do realise that those Greeks and romans are the people who wrote the bible and created the religion of christianity right?

    all the original texts of the bible are written in Greek and then later in Latin. the languages of the Romans and the Greeks.

    So the "diseased corrupted logic and beliefs" that they have "harboured and lived up to" is in fact Christinaity...so technically i agree with you, but i'm guessing that's not the spirit in which you wrote that comment.

    Did you know that Constantine the great, the man who brought christianity to the empire, killed his sister, his brother in law, his wife and his first born son in order to do it, and that was after snatching up the entire empire for himself from his three co-rulers whom his successors had chosen? His story is one of Greed in the extreme.

    Christinity isn't against greed...it IS greed manifested. It's God is the single greediest creature in all of human literature and has spent it's entire existence being the justification for Greedy men to go out and grab themselves more, even the church, with gold dripping from every wall and land as far as the eye can see is an organised machine fuelled almost extensively on greed.

  • a_no_n

    you realise that christians have been saying "it's the end" for about 1500 years.

    You say that ONLY through christ can we be redeemed for our sins...but i thought God was all powerful. i thought he could do whatever he wants, so why is he restricted by a stipulation?

  • a_no_n

    he also said washing your hands before eating is wrong

  • a_no_n

    what you have to understand about the new testament, is that it is not one book, it is four, written over the space of about five hundred years.

    the first book, Mark was written between fourty and a hundred years after Jesus's death. It describes Jesus as quite a private man, who shuns any notion of divinity, and in fact goes out of his way to hide anything remotely special about himself from the outside world. several times he bids his disciples be silent when they start bragging about him.

    Mark also makes no mention of any virgin birth, or miracles, and it makes several mistakes about the geography of the Levant which leads historians to believe that whoever wrote it had never actually been there, which makes it highly unlikely that a disciple wrote it.

    The later books begin making addittions, and they portray Jesus as someone who knows he is the son of God and wants everyone to know about it...a stark contract to the character portrayed in the first book, a portrayal that i think is mostly made up. The following books also refer to the people they were supposedly written by in the third person. which means it's unlikely that Matthew, Luke or John wrote Matthew luke and John.

    in short, to answer your question, Jesus both does and doesn't claim to be the son of God.

    for comparison, contemporary sources on Jesus (by that i mean sources from the time and place where all this was happening) say absolutly nothing. nada, zip.

    if Jesus fed five thousand people, then not one of them was impressed enough to go home and write anything down about it.

    Contemporary sources (namely Josephus) also contradict several claims the bible makes. firstly Herods slaughtering of the babies is not mantioned in Josephus...Josephus HATED Herod with a passion, if Herod had done something like this Josephus would have known about it and condemned him for it!

    Reports from the roman conquest of the Levant also indicate that Nazareth did not exist until after Jesus's death. The Romans noted every town and settlement they captured, but there isn't one mention of Nazareth. This helps us to identify how long after Jesus's death it was before the first book was written, as it describes Jesus as being of Nazareth.

    and finally the Cencus, the reasoning for mary and Joseph to go to bethlehem. it never happened. It also doesn't make any sense, there's nothing to be gained in a cencus by making people go back to their ancestral homes, it's counter productive and impossible to enforce. it didn't happen.

  • a_no_n

    l.Ron.Hubbard

  • dewflirt

    Hi :) I thought it might be that Hebraic likes to hide its vowels under its consonants, and perhaps out of respect for the god itself. I like that you care enough to do that, have to admit that I probably wouldn't - I like to be met halfway, even at the door if I think I can swing it! What I don't really understand is why that word in particular is at all precious, it's just a job title. And how is the word any less destroyed by being spoken? Once a word has passed your lips its going to mix with old air, dinosaur breath, all the pollution we filled it with (not to mention a hint of the mouth it passed through:) and will dissipate, become nothing.... Unless it's thought that it becomes infinitely big and eventually reaches the edge of the universe. I guess I should hold off saying it for a day or two, I had coleslaw this evening and it might be disappointing for future generations to discover that the strange aroma of deepest darkest space is just red onion! Thanks Karren, nice answer :)

  • Karen P. Haggett

    Oh, you have a good sense of humor. Something the world could use more of. Laughter is most definitely a healer. I appreciate your comments, as you seem to be a person who thinks . And Mozart and Jimmy Hendrix music are still traveling the universe along with everyword ever spoken.Thanks for the laugh !

  • dewflirt

    Trust humans to make it more complicated than it needs to be! Maybe god really was an alien and these are all just his alien Internet screen names. He's probably actually called Garry or Dennis or something. wonder if he's on Spacebook? ;)

  • Salim Komora

    the talking snake was in Heaven by the way. gods were made by men,