Caesar's Messiah

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Caesar's Messiah

Let's just go back to the drawing board, leave aside all of the assumptions of Christian history, look at the texts afresh, consider every possibility, and open the whole game up. By doing that we'll see that Christianity is really paganism by a different name.

Some of the Bible scholars are mavericks working outside the restrictions of mainstream religious institutions. This allows them the freedom to provide fresh insights and draw some startling conclusions about how Christianity was formed.

And for Joseph Atwill the key lies in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the only Jewish literature ever discovered from the first century AD or CE... the time Jesus would have been preaching among the Jews. The characters in the Dead Sea Scrolls were militaristic and you can see that this movement wanted to push the foreigners out of Israel; they were fundamentalists, whereas the characters of the Gospels are different.

They're pacifistic, they're turning the other cheek, they're giving the Caesar what is Caesar's. How did a movement like Christianity come to exist in a region that was occupied by Roman soldiers and had Jewish zealots within it that were going to push these Romans out? How was that possible?

Joseph began studying the other two major works of that era, The 'New testament' and the 'Wars of the Jews' by Josephus, a Roman court historian who described the war between the Romans and the Jews in the first century. While reading these works side by side he noticed an amazing connection between them.

Certain events from the ministry of Jesus seem to closely parallel episodes from the military campaign of Titus Flavius. A campaign which took place forty years after Jesus supposedly lived. Joseph's efforts to understand these connections led him to an incredible discovery. Christianity had been invented by a little known family of Roman Caesars, the Flavians, and they left us documents to prove it.

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206 Comments / User Reviews

  1. ~Oliver B Koslik Esq

    Reaffirmations of what I had already concluded upon, in regards to the story of religious origin.

    If you are interested in learning the creationism of religion ie: Christianity & Judaism. More over if you aspire to understanding how different (but "similar") religions/faiths came to be... This documentary explains the concept of "engineered class war" (of public oppression & control) quite clearly and concisely.

    Great Doc!
    +1 For Sociological Evolution!
    Thank You

  2. James

    There is theatrical music constantly in the background during the documentary narration, interviews and voice overs. I could only take about 10min of all the continuous noise before it was just too much.

  3. John Murgaš

    The Biggest Mass Psychosis in History.

  4. Galzu

    I think this is a precursor for destroying the 3 book religions, I have been suspect of this since I read a letter written over a hundred years ago, they intend to force all Jews to move to Israel then stir up war between the Jews and Arabs then once those two have destroyed themselves so they will bring more evidence out showing Christ is a fantasy, thus destroying all book religions, I often wonder why the Jews were allowed to take a majority of the worlds wealth and all the best weapons, well they will be outnumbered so need all that to start and fund the upcoming war, the Jews were setup, I find it very odd that a Jewish owned press is making sure we know that Jews control all the banks, politicians and media, this can only be to create resentment and now they have cut money off to us will lead to civil war making all Jews leave and go to Israel, even the making sure they reached the top of every thing including making sure they got Nobel no matter how false their science is, it is clear the Jews have been setup as a focus point of hate purely to force them all to the middle east to fight a war against Islam until both are dead. my guess is they were given nukes so they would use them, which means the Arabs have been secretly given them.
    Anyway judging by how long this manipulation of us has been going on I would say that the ordinary people have been farmed for the last 4000 years. but I think this crash we have now is so that we blame the Jews and force them out so they can start this war of wars that will end up with a NWO with no religions.

  5. Nebbe

    How come christianity is the only faith trying so hard to miscredit it self ???

  6. joe

    You can link anything to something else. You can always connect dots that dont exist. And how do they have proof that the books were written by the Flavians? It is their research that says so. In the end, it does not matter whether Jesus was real or not. It is his teachings that matter. They are the same teachings of all major religions. It is about love, kindness, and caring.

  7. M Raghavan

    All religions have links to ancient myths and ideas that were precursors to later developments. Non-western religions are willing to admit this without having to needlessly debunk faith or spirituality altogether.

  8. Alv V

    Silly and speculative new-age fantasies without a shred of facts, just like the fiction about the Jesus and Mary Magdalene marriage, Illuminati, Masons, Templar's, Grails and any similar ear-tickling preaching that came as a result of people believing that "The Da Vinci Code" was a work of non-fiction.

  9. ~Oliver B Koslik Esq

    Fair enough... my comment was speaking in a broad sense. As I said "reaffirming" my own conclusions of the origin of such religions.

    I could be wrong, no problem.
    However I found it quite validating...

    Thx for the reply!

  10. Val Valiant Five

    Time blurs things like a children's game of whispers.

    Two thousand years from now I can picture those silly Scientologists justifying the life and times of Ron L Hubbard with just as much faith and passion as all the children of Abraham justify their respective messiah(s) today.

    Hopefully our real creators will let us know what is really going on by then... Just to shut us all up, at the very least.

  11. dmxi

    the finest summation of my thoughts whilst digesting the information given in this documentary esp. regarding the non-issue of the christian persecution.the use (mis-use?)
    of typology as an indicator is a subject i'm delving into at the moment (revising both homers work on this subject) which is quite interesting but in this case cannot be sufficient evidence as such.
    thumbs-up on your comment!

  12. hisxmark

    Christianity was designed as a means of social control. Slaves are to obey their masters, and no one is to resist secular or religious authority: One emperor is the representative of one god. Kings rule by divine will. The design was a pastiche of familiar elements, a blend of Judaism and the mystery religions.

  13. Lauri Neva

    So a slam on Christianity now! Never a slam on the Jews though, those cretins of civilization who are bent as the so called holly books in their horror library tell them, to destroy Christianity whom they hate and make everyone bow down to the Jew! This country gives the state of Israel vast trillions of money gratis to carry their murderous attacks on Muslims and everyone else, making America pay for their murderous adventures. Bah humbug on the GD Jews!

  14. winter iscoming

    Firstly, the Jews have had centuries of persecution where as the christians were typically the ones doing the persecuting. That aside, religion is a social sect that grants power to few and obedience from many. All religion is detrimental to our society and the more we progress out of this dogma the better off we all will be.

  15. winter iscoming

    agreed, all religion is fiction. though i quite enjoy the illuminati conspiracies lol

  16. winter iscoming

    are you implying no one will be able to practice any religion ever? or just that no countries will be able to adopt a specific religion that the whole nation must abide by? If its the latter, i'm perfectly fine with that, or rather prefer it.

  17. robert elliot

    Freemasonry is fiction?

  18. Sha Tara

    Raised Catholic, became atheist, then agnostic, "converted" to born again Christianity, none of the above answered my fundamental questions: Who am I? Where am I going? Past all that now (I think) but I'm still looking into Christianity now that I know it is, indeed, a psy-op. What I'd like to see is research into the work of the false apostle, Paul of Tarsus, and how he managed, single-handed, to twist the movement begun by "Jesus" (or whomever) into the political power that became known as the Catholic Church and is now Christianity (whether the sub-cults acknowledge Rome or not, they are just as much puppets of the "Church" as Catholics.) Paul of Tarsus, please, known before as Saul, persecutor of the early "Christians" and barely concealed misogynist.

  19. T1bbst3t

    Questions at the start;
    1. Although there were others like Jesus, prophets & healers, from round the same time period, Jesus was the one who became popular enough to pi** off the romans enough for them to kill him by him earning the title 'king of the Jews' & gaining popularity.
    2. The apostles were the first people to 'spread' christianity round different cities.
    3. Most surviving texts were written in Greek because all educated people round the Roman empire wrote Greek from how it was run since before the roman take-over of the empires set up by Alexander the great, which was never changed.
    I would like to point out that Christianity wasn't institutionalised until 300ad when Constantine set up the catholic church & that anybody who thinks they are educated towards christianity to read JOB in the old testament if they think christianity is a 'brain-washing' psy-op. It promotes alltruistic values like 'love', 'charity' & less materialism & opposes usury & deceit from 'the un-Godly' for example, shows you that you can totally rebuke these values toward something called 'satanism' if you like there but your supposed to have the strength to resist this because that's how the 'surfs' like us are supposed to find the strength to organise ourselves into a benevolant society!
    It has been institutionalised again & christians do get caught up in 'pious', or 'religious' lies by people who like to use the bible to put religious overtones towards political agendas' but this can happen to anybody who allows themselves to get caught up in any similar dialect like this documentary for example.....
    Some of the books in the old testament are based on Samarian stories from around 3500bc, but the Greeks & Egyptians for example actually had a few Gods based on some samarian Gods I think, which just goes to show they were a very advanced race!

  20. luoar

    When are my fellow human will wake up to religious lies? all new religion on earth came from Rome set up for one purpose slavery and mind control.

  21. Ellena Sabater

    It is very interesting to me that most people trying to discredit religion are always focusing on Christianity. I never come across an article or doco about Hinduism for example. People go to great lengths to discredit something that is in the end true. People don't seem to acknowledge that the bible is full of prophesies that came true and writings about science facts that we're not proven til thousands of years later by modern science. How does one explain that away?

  22. Xmen442002

    Jesus was a prophet of God. Same as Noah, Abraham and Moses.
    He was truned into God by Paul.
    The trinity is never mentioned by Paul in his writings and is later added by Athanasius around 365CE.
    I don't agree with the film.
    It is an anti-religion athesist bend on a NWO and free mason philosophy.

  23. maria

    What a pile of deception. An Atheist view of Christ is almost laughable if it were not so utterly sad that they are desolate.

  24. Ted Arndt

    Pardon me?

  25. Ted Arndt

    A precise man. Thank you.

  26. Ted Arndt

    Paganism and Christ? I've come to a conclusion that when someone says the word Zionist they happen to hate God. The one they don't believe in.

  27. Ted Arndt

    I'm a tad lost on your reasoning.

  28. docoman

    To find out some of the answer you're looking for Sha, have a look at the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great. It's quite interesting reading. I admire your courage to follow your own mind, keep thinking and making up your own decisions after you gain the required knowledge. Good luck mate.

  29. docoman

    Ask her whether she thinks all religion is fiction. I don't think she will agree with you.

  30. docoman

    But the 'old school' type preaching is still OK? Do you believe everything the Bible says, and that it doesn't contradict itself? Or is that too (the Bible) at least partly a work of fiction?

  31. docoman

    Good post and research. From that blog it also seems Atwill is just re-hashing an new version of an old, BS story.

  32. Galzu

    I am implying nothing, it is a case of probability, the human life span is short, and the max influence any one human can have on events is about 60 years max, which means if all things were just one mans dream then things would change drastically over the course of say 5000 years, but they have not, the odds of this being natural are none existent so therefore it implies that an agenda is being forced, as it is being executed over a time span greater than any one life then the subjects(humans) cant notice it until they analyse many life spans worth of information, so from this I deduce we are being farmed, religion seems to have had its use in coalescing humans into a global force with fractions and now it is just a case of getting rid of those fractions, quite simple really and undetectable as long as it happens over a few human life spans.

  33. Xmen442002

    Which part would you like me to clarify?

  34. Allrighthen

    Why do people so desperately want others to believe what they believe, is affirmation of you own ideologies so important that you'd force others to believe as you do. Some Atheists are as zealous as the Christians they despise and the Christians are just as willing to hurt others to prove their beliefs.

  35. Umar Mohammed

    You are likely to have a limited view of the fundamental questions you are seeking. You need to read and study the scripture of Islam called the quran to find out the purpose of human existence, where you came from and where you are going to. It also tells you about the personality of Jesus and his teachings. It is also the only scripture that refers to 'Christians' as 'Christians'; which is not even applicable in the bible. I also hope the makers of this documentary will examine Jesus in the light of the Quran in order to have a multi dimensional view of his personality.

  36. Guest

    This documentary is the single most absolutely righteous empirical attack on Christianity i have ever seen, heard, or read.

  37. tusk321

    Why is it ALWAYS an "Attack" on christianity when christians have attacked pretty much everything for decades...

  38. tusk321

    How can someone hate god if they don't believe in it....??

  39. tusk321

    Deception.... TRUTH hurts, is more like it. Anytime anyone has an opinion or theory on the origins of christianity, christians are always on the attack... as usual. Karma's a bitch eh.

  40. tusk321

    That's because Buddhist and Hinduist are peaceful and embrace their religion from within. Many christians are hateful and try to control everything they disagree with... "People go to great lengths to discredit something that is in the end true." What is "truth" to you is bogus to everyone else... Buddhists and Hindus find peace in their faith... "christians" find peace by assimilating everyone and everything around them. There is NO TRUTH to any religion... It exists as a hope and what you like to call faith. It is only as real as your imagination.

  41. tusk321

    Interesting. A lot to think about Galzu :)

  42. durike

    easily :D

  43. durike

    how about, poeple try to discredit which they think is untrue. if you want more general bashing try christopher hitchens, he takes on all religions. you not seeing other religions bashed, means you do not look enough. a recomendation to tusk 321, who assasinated ghandi?

  44. Nothing_Is_Real

    Religion is the original sin and god is the original scam. Point taken.

  45. Joshua Marks

    Pretzel logic baked in a vacuum. The term "scholarship" is used loosely... the themes are regurgitated "pop-(a)theology"... and the "agenda" is self-evident and explicit. Religion is used broadly as a straw man, and there is no effort to represent true scholarship from within the ranks of modern Christology or even the historical philosophers/mystics of the church (e.g., St. Thomas Aquinas et al).

    There are many representations of "proper discussion" on these topics online (youtube) and elsewhere churning theism/atheism based on the Abrahamic tradition, culminating in the testament of Jesus. Fortunately "we" have the likes of John Lennox (Prof Mathematics and Philosophy of Science @ Oxford), White (Prof. Greek, Hebrew, systematic theology) and others well prepared to take on the "intelligentsia" of atheism as represented by Dawkins, Price, Silverman, Hitchens... The Price/White debate is probably the most directly associated with the content of this documentary - for those interested, a selection of "scholarly debates" on these topics:

    James White / Robert Price - Is The Bible True?
    James White / David Silverman - Is The New Testament Evil
    John Lennox / Richard Dawkins - Has Science Buried God (Oxford Museum of Natural History)
    John Lennox / Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion (Alabama)
    John Lennox / Michael Shermer - Does God Exist
    Christopher Hitchens / William Lane Craig - Does God Exist?
    Richard Dawkins vs Cardinal George Pell. From Q and A.

  46. Dan Courtney

    It's interesting that the producers of this video are simply saying, "Here is the evidence, you can decide", while Christianity not only asks people to believe with no evidence, but bribes them with heaven and threatens them with hell if they don't.

  47. Dan Courtney

    There is also a compelling work by Dennis MacDonald (The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark) that makes the case that the gospels are modeled after the Odyssey. What's fascinating is that at a time when more people are finding that an internal critique of Christianity exposes its incoherence, we are also finding the very sources of this mythology.

  48. Dan Courtney

    First, the Free Masons are a Christian cult. Second, this film doesn't disparage religion, just the use of religion by authorities to deceive and control. Third, if the NWO is to empower the individual through the use of critical thinking, then it's only a threat to entrenched powers that rely on fear and superstition.

  49. Joshua Marks

    "Christian cult" - ridiculous. Look up Msgr. Jouin 200 yr. history of "mortal battle to the death" with freemasonry - proclamations by Orthodoxy on Freemasonry... Baptist, Lutheran, or pretty much any positional paper by denominations rooted in the reformation. This comment literally demonstrates the "infiltration" of the doctrine of the societies within modern culture. You are more likely to find reference to these sects and interrelated societies from within the church as "synagogue of Satan"...

  50. Richard Kratom

    Religion brings peace and comfort to a lot of people which is a good thing I guess but keep it to yourself and leave me and my family alone. I like data and factual information. Some like make believe. To each their own. I really enjoyed this documentary and learned a lot.

  51. Dan Courtney

    OK, "Christian Cult" was overstated. Freemasonry is primarily made up of Christians and has cultish aspects.

  52. Justin Lesniewski

    i said it was a righteous empirical attack, I mean, I guess its not an aggressive stance but when I was listening, I was pretty shocked by the obvious points. I meant Attack in the sense that it may break down some barriers people have about religion. I guess I never questioned it, but I believed Jesus existed. I guess it was a remnant from my childhood I never really thought about, even being an atheist for 10 years I still never really doubted it. Now hearing it was a fable, and possibly a conspiracy of the ages, I mean--- this is heavyweight stuff.! Why do people dismiss him so easily? Even if every one of his "facts" are wrong, the FACT is that christianity WAS created, and IS a pile of lies. Whether your ascribing it to Roman Conspiracy, sheep-herder wisemen, or what have you. Even if he is wrong about The origin, or if Jesus was manufactured by Romans,, its obvious that the Catholic religion was created as a tool for power and money.

  53. Darren

    "I like data and factual information" If you like factual information then try and forget you ever watched this. I won't bother with a link as I already put one up earlier in reply to the first comment on this thread, however there's an even better link provided by a_no_n, just google 'Richard Carrier Atwill's Cranked-up Jesus'.

  54. CapnCanard

    A good documentary... I've read D.M. Murdock's book "The Christ Conspiracy" so the whole doc was just a refresher of previous info though I read her book about 10 years ago and I had almost forgotten about the Flavian connection.

  55. mike jarvis

    Good!

  56. CapnCanard

    Hinduism is largely based on natural cycles just like pre-christian belief. Hence winter solstice is the birth of the sun, not a son. Spring equinox is the renewal of life up from the cold dead ground, hence being crucified and yet reemerging as the living. The solstices and equinoxes both figure heavily in natural "religious" belief structures.and that is pagan, aka the natural cycles of life. Hinduism is more sophisticated in minute detail, but it is also perverted by those in the positions of power. As is Judaism or Taoism or Buddhism etc etc etc. It is heavily layered with local belief and cultural influences.

  57. mike jarvis

    The world is a better place when all the "self-righteous" religions of the world are exposed for what they are. And what they are are the attempts of men to answer questions they cannot comprehend because of a lack of knowledge, or a desire to control others through a fear of eternal damnation. From a moral standpoint most religions have many redeemable qualities.But, almost all preach believe, obey and submit, or burn in a eternal "hell".
    SO very tired of it all.......

  58. mike jarvis

    If you wait long enough everything becomes true. sista please.....

  59. mike jarvis

    You probably believe in Nostrodomus' prophesies also. Do you?

  60. mike jarvis

    Why did God send His only Son? Wasnt it because of Adams original sin?.... Was there a Adam? Christianity depends on the biblical account of the worlds creation. Without Adam and Eve's original sin no need to send a savior. If the worlds human population started with two people then I'm in trouble ( say going to hell). But...I think my Neanderthal buddies got my back.

  61. CapnCanard

    The issue that many true believers fail to ever acknowledge is the that of mystery. The old mystery schools were the truly persecuted. They were all but severely persecuted by officialdom of Christians, because Christians don't like competition. The old mystery schools were/are often based on we can see, the very natural progression of the life cycle in the nature. For instance passage of a year with the seasons playing a profoundly vital role. We can see and measure that what was once dead fertilizes the earth and then new life propagates and becomes born again. Very simple and it is natural.

  62. mike jarvis

    Does this quran also have the 72 virgins for those who die in martyrdom? if so do female martyrs get 72 virgins also? And what fun are virgins anyways? However, I do like the concept of being able to relate with one's God outside the church and or without the need of priest and or clergy. As with most religions the Muslim faith has too many sect's fighting among themselves over too much doctrine. God has a name "he" is called nature and he is beautiful .

  63. mike jarvis

    Religion is the reason there is no peace! The world would be so much better if everyone kept their religion to themselves! And I mean themselves,no churches no mosque no synagogues.

  64. Xmen442002

    She is hardly an authority on this subject.
    Her book is full of errors and made up analogies with no evidence to prove her conclusions.

  65. Xmen442002

    Bart Ehrman does a very good job of proving that Jesus did exist in his book: "Did Jesus Exist".
    Ehrman has no bias in Chrisitanity for he once was a devout Chrisitan and now considers himself agnostic due to the progression on life work and education in the NT.
    He tells that he is rather amazed that people did not think Jesus existed when the overwhelming majority of NT scholars do all agree that he did exixst.
    I think the one thing that many people need to keep in mind about Jesus is, that he certainly was not the soft spoken and meekish messenger of God that people made him out to be.

  66. Xmen442002

    Call it what you like, but man has always had"faith" in the unknown or in spirits and god(s).
    The truth is, that man knows that somewhere, he was created by a divine being, one greater than he and this faith will prevail until man is no more.

  67. Xmen442002

    You are correct about Islam being divided into too many sects.
    The view you see in the media would have you believe this is the true problem, but it is not.
    Islam is the worlds second largest religion and it is closing in quickly on Christianity.
    The Quran is a very direct message toward humanity. Not hard to understand but one must have a general idea of what is written in the Quran is also a historical narrative of the infancy of Islam in Arabia and does not carry over to this day and age.
    This is where the normall person gets lost in understanding Islam.
    The issue of 72 virgins comes from sources outside the Quran and is a fable, nothing more.

  68. CapnCanard

    And your credentials please? She has credentials in anthropology and experience on archaeological digs in both Greece and the US. I don't agree with all of her conclusions but she is spot on concerning evidence for proof of Jesus, in that there is none. And I will say that Joseph Atwills idea look nice but some of it is weak. I'm not completely on board but it has more credibility than the Christian story.

  69. Dan Courtney

    Man does not "know" of a divine being in the sense of empirical knowledge, because there is no evidence. Most men have, however, assumed such a thing because of our evolved sense of agency. Fortunately we have also evolved the ability to reason, and this capacity demonstrates that the common conception of a "divine being" is irrational.

  70. Umar Mohammed

    "And there are certainly, among the Jews and Christians, those who believe in Allah(God) and in that which has been revealed to you (Quran), and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before Allah. They do not sell the verses of Allah for a little price, for them is a reward with thier Lord. Surely, Allah is Swift in account." Quran Chap 3 Verse 199

    My enlighted colleague; more beneficial replies to your queries would have been made supposing you quoted relevant portions of the Islamic texts as I did above. Note that the sources of Islamic legislation is the Quran ( the complete word of Allah) and the sunnah/hadith ( the sayings and actions of Prophet Muhammad in explaining the religion). The various sects you were refering to is as a result of deviating from these 2 major sources of legislation. You could arm yourself with a copy of the Quran and Hadith books (Sahih Al Bukhari and Muslim(for a start)). This would assist you challenge/ confirm anything someone tells you about Islam.

    Finally, was it God that personally told you His name is 'nature' and He is 'beautiful'? I want to get cogent references to call God with the names he gave Himself( I want to avoid a situation where God may sue me to court for ascribing a name which He did not give to Himself).

    "He is Allah, the Creator, the Inventor of all things, the Bestower of Forms. To Him belong the Best Names. All that is in the heaven and the earth glorify Him. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise". Quran C59 V24

  71. Umar Mohammed

    Is there any instance in world history where the absence of religion has been the reason for peace? Unless you have such instances it would be very difficult to convince people in that regards. Thanks

  72. Xmen442002

    My credentials are not in question here for I am not on camera or in print declaring a truth of non-existence.
    She has no area of expertise in sacred texts and the NT which most of our indications that Jesus did exist come from.
    If you do not like the NT as a source, then you can go into the Nag Hamadi scriptures as well as the known information about the Ebionites(our earliest source for Jesus that is known)

  73. Joshua Marks

    Yes, the "meek and mild" Jesus has been torn apart as an inappropriate caricature by many including J.B. Phillips in Your God is Too Small (and titles one of his chapters "Meek and Mild"). Also, Gary Wills recent book What Jesus Meant does a great job of "resuscitating" the radical Jesus - opening with the forward titled: Christ Not a Christian.

    Funny, this rather "casual" insistence for recital that Jesus did not exist and citing the "scholars" that have demonstrated it. My impression is that not many have meditated on what it would mean to try and "unravel" the very existence of a "personality" that I believe many would argue as the most, or at least among the most, "influential" in human history - even in secular terms. Even Dawkins in the debates listed above, concedes the existence of the historical Jesus...

  74. tusk321

    Great History Lesson!!! I do not follow a god, a christ, or a belief... the history is there, exposing the truth. Understand, you can still have your faith and love for the church. BUT the church, in my opinion, has no place in a reality based society. I do not explain things with supernatural notions, therefore I should not have to listen to/ abide by a christian concept in my life or community. A foundation based on murder, greed, control of the masses, and bowing to something that doesn't exist, in my belief... I realize many follow this concept and glad they find hope in such a quest but don't judge or control my life with what you call christian values. I have faith that mankind knows right from wrong, god or no god.

  75. Darth Truth

    "My credentials are not in question here for I am not on camera or in print declaring a truth of non-existence."
    but you are on here declaring that she is wrong(and you are right). So he wanted to know what credentials you have that make you more authoritative on the subject than her? which you neatly sidestepped without answering. Also how do you know she has done no research into the NT or the NHS? Plus writings/books about someone isn't proof of their existence, especially since they were written in a time before the concept of fiction was invented and when legends and fantastical stories were assumed to be true.

  76. NX2

    I found the last ten minutes or so to be the most interesting part, though to conclude that Christianity is an invention, is in my opinion quite a bit of an oversimplification. First of all, Christianity is not a uniform religion, even if only Roman Christianity is meant, it is not so. And it is not the same now as it was back then. There's an evolution.

    I will not deny that the Flavians created some kind of religion. They, or the intellectuals working for them, mostly writing in Greek, an elitist tendency of the epoch, 'simply' gathered and manipulated material from diverse sources. Like good postmodernist of their time (heh, that reminds me of Lyotard's boutade, post modernism is what comes before modernism)
    To the advantage of the Flavians, but clearly they propagated something that grew beyond their control. How many Christians are there today that worship Flavius? It grew out of their control because, i believe , of the use of powerful archetypes that have their validity or valuable aspects even today.
    Archetypes that were initially intended for personal growth, as the documentary mentions.

    I' d like to make it clear i'm not advocating for Christianity, it can be used to 'control' or influence you. That's the same for any religion. Or non- religion.

  77. NX2

    That's actually not the point. Though you can take it that way if it pleases you. No problem.

  78. CapnCanard

    You have taken a stand against fact based arguments. You traditionalists have no evidence and that includes the NT. And please keep in mind that the New Testament wasn't written until 200 years after the alleged events in question, perhaps at the same time as the Nag Hamadi texts. That is a problem for your position. If you have links, citations and sources then please share. Until then your argument is one of faith and not evidence. In your faith it is good, but in research and science then faith based "evidence" is not good enough. The Nag Hamadi texts are Gnostic and not accepted by the Roman Church, the Eastern Orthodox, the Anglican Church or even the Evangelicals. Nag Hamadi is GNOSTIC. Gospel of Phillip? Gospel of Thomas? I heard they even suggest there is a Gospel of Mary Magdalene!!! These Gospels just gives more strength to a system that was manufactured by early followers to create a religion. I still think Joseph Atwill is reaching a bit too much, but not as much as you are. But I am going to step off and let the sleeping dog lie...

  79. NX2

    alright, it seems this theory is already debunked

  80. Xmen442002

    Who's facts?
    Much of the work cited in this documentary is information that came to light at the beginning of the 20th century.
    This just sounds new and fantastic.
    The Bible is a very human book by all accounts and chok full of errors and misrepresentations.
    If you are atheist, you are going to want to believe in what is said and if you are Christian, then you will defend what you see as lies and fabrications.
    I am neither, but I have seen enough(in readings) to actually believe that Jesus did exist( not the one portrayed in the Bible).
    Yes, I do believe the Christian faith is full of lies and deceptions but I still believe in God.
    You do not have to have science concur a belief.
    You can not see the air we breathe, but we know it is there and we know the effects of having it.
    It is the same with man's spirituality and his relationship to a divine creator.

  81. Xmen442002

    I am saying she is not an expert in this field and she has many errors in her writing of the Christ Conspiracy.
    Experts should stay in their field of study if they wish to be taken seriously in the scholarly world.
    She is entitltled to her educated opinion, the same as you and I.
    She is also an atheist.
    I only watched about 30 minutes or so of the film, but I did not see during this time anyone interviewed with the opposing view(actual scholars of this subject) to counter these arguments.
    Seems to me, that this would be a rather important ingredient if you truly wish to drive home your case of Jesus not existing.

  82. jaberwokky

    There's a corner over there, go cry in it.

  83. jaberwokky

    "Tide comes in, tide goes out ... you can't explain that!!!?!"

    Clown.

  84. jaberwokky

    You're whole world view is based on a 2000 year old fable which was created with the intent of enslaving people.

    If I were you I'd panic like a motherf*cker.

  85. Xmen442002

    So i assume you are one that suscribes to the belief that when we die....that's it?
    Do you believe we have a soul?
    Where does the energy go then that fueled the body when the person was alive?
    This is science here.
    Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only transferred from one state to another.

  86. Xmen442002

    This is not my belief.
    I just believe that Jesus did exist and he was a prophet.
    Now.....why would this make me panic??

  87. jaberwokky

    Soul my ass. Do dogs have souls? What about monkeys, or mice, or ladybugs? Where does a fleas energy go when it dies? Or a daisy? Put your childish delusions aside and grow up.

  88. jaberwokky

    Is that so? Because when I scroll further down this page and read some of your comments it sure does sound like your beliefs and the "good ol' book" are very much in harmony.

  89. Xmen442002

    An angry atheist you are....
    Why is so important for you to denounce faith?
    All living beings have a soul or energy attached to them

  90. jaberwokky

    If you say so.

    Faith is the bastion of the simple minded, that is why I denounce it.

  91. oQ

    Please don't start sounding like the guy that was taken off not long ago....millions of people on earth have faith, why? because they were raised that way or they came to encounter something that convinced them along the way.
    I have no faith in God but I sure am not gonna say that consciousness is a product of my brain until they can prove it. Consciousness is a mystery to science. Consciousness has been a mystery for eons.
    In other words no one knows for sure more than I do.

  92. Xmen442002

    Where did I quote scripture?
    The Bible is avery human book and much of it is forged and fabricated.
    I do believe that their is some truth in there about Jesus though.
    I do not believe he is the son of God.

  93. jaberwokky

    Well seeing as you went and mentioned "that guy" I now have to retire for a while and reassess my attitude :/

    No harm.

  94. Xmen442002

    So you believe you are better and superior in intellect than those that submit and believe in God?

  95. jaberwokky

    Submit and believe, the language of slaves.

  96. oQ

    For over two years, half the times i clicked on recents comments, I read insults toward religious believers. I kinda think it's nice since things have turned out a bit more civil.
    Perhaps boring for some.

  97. a_no_n

    wow it's like the 1940's never left.

  98. a_no_n

    does the fact that violent crime in more secular countries is dramatically lower than it is in more pious countries count?

  99. jaberwokky

    Fair point, but as time wears on I get more and more tired reading a lot of the same old nonsense. I guess I just wasn't expecting as much of it on this doc for some reason.

    Edit: Also you should try reading the comment sections in some of the science videos ... to get a balanced view.

  100. a_no_n

    humerously enough his work is also based entirely off of modern English translations, not the original manuscripts...Which is bad because those English translations are translated from medieval Latin, which itself was translated from Dark age Greek, so for all we know, he's chasing typo's and mistranslations hundreds of years in the making.

    basicly the more you look into it, the more loose threads you find to unravel the image.

  101. oQ

    I know, some people have a religious stand that sounds crazy to me too, i solve that by jumping right over it.
    I do read science documentary comments, they are some of my favorites.

  102. a_no_n

    the walls keeping the roof up suggest not, but the mystique surrounding them is most certainly fictitious.

  103. oQ

    Buddhism screams consciousness.

  104. a_no_n

    one small correction. Constantine set up what would be recognised today as the Orthadoxy. Catholicism is the Western offshoot that came into existence due to a schism over the use of iconography.

  105. jaberwokky

    Consciousness and God are not the same thing.

  106. oQ

    If consciousness happens to be the ground of all being, therefore matter being a product of a grand consciousness...then who cares what it is called.

  107. jaberwokky

    I do, because of the baggage that nomenclature can entail. Once the word God comes into play you leave the door open for all sorts of things.

  108. jaberwokky

    Well therein lies the fundamental difference in what you and I believe. My belief is that those things you mention are reason in and of themselves, they are their own rewards and to think they are just a path to elsewhere denigrates their values. If this world is just Maya then so be it but I'm not going to spend my time worrying about some petulant needy deity or my eternal soul. What sits right with me here in this world will have to be good enough for the next.

  109. Xmen442002

    Ok.
    Fair enough.
    But....what if you are wrong and God does exist and there is heaven and hell.
    Not possible to know until death comes upon us.
    Having faith in God and what I believe He directs me to lead my life as here does no one harm in this existence.
    I am not a slave. I have this choice.
    I choose to live a life where I help my human brothers and sisters and promote what is good over what is greedy and evil of the world's resources.
    There are more bad people in this world than good(my opinion). I would rather help the person up who has fallen and take the time to make sure they are ok rather than walk over them or around them oblivious to their pain and suffering.
    The world is very much like the latter.
    This is what God commands of us in service to others while here and I believe we learn from this and evolve.
    Faith in God drives me to be the first way and that is reason enough alone for me to have faith in God.

  110. oQ

    People use the word god to represent something bigger than them. I suppose they imagine this being as a father who gets mad or happy depending on how they behave, pretty simple, and then they go on preaching about something they can't follow themselves.

    I like the thought of science discovering that consciousness is the "mother" of matter.
    Imagine the coming out of the closet in the science departments.

  111. jaberwokky

    Your asking me to play Pascals wager. I won't. I'm glad you can find good in your faith but it's not for me, I'm happy to stumble along and make my own way. Not sure how my immortal soul will fair out if there is a sky fairy spying on me but I'll take my chances and make my own road.

  112. oQ

    I have faith that i am god, whatever that means.

  113. Xmen442002

    Well then.... may you find your road to happiness in this life and worry about the next when that time has come.
    Good night.

  114. jaberwokky

    Haha, that would be something indeed. They'd be like the republican party though, they'd never admit to it.

    I do believe we are all tied in some unified way to the whole of the universe and that there is some aspect to time and distance that we are incapable of perceiving. There's a structure to the fabric of our reality that we haven't yet discovered which I believe quantum theory is only hinting at. Whose to say what will be revealed. I'm kind of hoping they get to it soon though, don't want to miss that party.

  115. jaberwokky

    Aren't we all?

  116. jackmax

    Robert made more sense in one post than all the religees put together.
    There is the souls of your feet that's it. Unless the fools making the claims about "human soles" have evidence they have as much foundation to their belief as their belief in the magic man (god).

  117. oQ

    Actually once i translate the word faith in French, (where i can understand the exact meaning of the word) i would say i have 99% trust in my being god.
    I keep 1% safe for the last breath while realizing that the trust one has in oneself is a seed that has the potential to grow towards a better knowledge.

  118. jaberwokky

    I found this documentary most enjoyable, not sure how much of the information is fully accurate but it certainly gave me a new viewing angle on the Christ Mythos.

  119. oQ

    Why believe in a god outside of self when every single religion on earth, tells us all.... you are god.
    Doesn't that make it more simple?

  120. jackmax

    "I call the reward for passing a gift from God in further evolution of our being"
    Firstly you have no evidence that the magic man(god) is real.

  121. Pysmythe

    A nice little parting threat about hellfire, what typical Christian generosity!

  122. jaberwokky

    I trust 100% you are God. As am I. As is Xmen442002. It only follows naturally if you look at how everything is interconnected. This concept of a God I could accept, understand or possibly even wax lyrical over. A spiteful sky daddy? Nope.

    My God is better than your God : (

  123. jaberwokky

    Shhhh ... he's saving my eternal soul. And scoring points with the skydaddy.

  124. Pysmythe

    Don't you ever fret too much about it, Jabberwocky. If we should all turn out to have been wrong, I feel sure any good lord would have much higher regard for an honest freethinker than most of these Christians would be willing to believe...

  125. oQ

    You mean that in a good way, don't you?

  126. jaberwokky

    I just hope they get the 3G sorted out up there before I arrive :)

  127. Ted Arndt

    That was my odd point.

  128. docoman

    You've mistaken your decency as if it's put there by your 'faith'. It is very much possible to do every good deed you claim, without ascribing any of your motivations to some 'higher power'. (In fact, it could be argued that it is a more pure act, as it's not for some reward after death)
    If you were to see something that made you decide your beliefs in God must be inaccurate, would your good deeds suddenly disappear too?
    No, religion does not have a monopoly on decency, that's a claim that is commonly made and has been proven wrong by every good action done, not only by non-believers, but everyone that believes in a different 'God' to yours.

  129. docoman

    Firstly, you've made the assumption there is in fact a purpose to our lives. Why does there HAVE to be a purpose? And don't you find it the least bit telling that it's only humans that seem to need to have this purpose, not other life?

  130. docoman

    Boring for most I'd suggest, even those who argued with him (most of us at times I think :). I recall reading a conversation since he's been gone between a couple that I thought most disliked Robert, yourself and norvaline if my memory is correct, and how it was said it's boring, I think the phrase mentioned was something like 'every conversation needs its antagonist'. ;)
    Like him or not, at least he made us learn things. My vocabulary for one. He made me look up more word definitions then anyone I've read I think. :) I learned some interesting things from him as well. I miss his grumpy but generally accurate posts. But TDF goes on...

  131. docoman

    Actually it's the other way around.

    Its believers that assert without their God there are no morals, no good actions.

    Which in itself carries the inherent self belief that because of their 'faith', they are the 'servants of God', and thus somehow now superior to those that aren't.
    It's built in to the belief system. You're the saved, the rest are the damned. Are you going to say in your opinion being saved is not better? And thus, you're better?

  132. docoman

    The Seventh Day Adventists believe we are a vessel for God, God's temple, he can dwell within us. (so it's important not to smoke etc to defile God's temple apparently) Not so much we are God. Or so that's what they told me in their Bible classes. :)

  133. docoman

    IF we make our own 'consciousness', then of course it has a beginning and an end, because we do. Can you remember before you were born, or even being born? I can't. I can't remember learning to talk, but I did. So the first part of that question is really an oxymoron, no beginning or end but is not permanent.
    An analogy to help understand your question 'can it (consciousness) be transformed if it has no form, colour or odour'.
    Our thoughts have no form, colour or odour, but we can transform, or change, the way we think about something. We can often do it over time without us noticing it. Like learning language when we're young. So the answer to that question can it be transformed based on the criteria you asked, is most probably yes.

  134. docoman

    I take it you are Muslim then? I read your posts earlier talking about the human soul. Do you believe humans have a soul? (as distinct to our two soles)

    The following is something I came across online, I'd like to hear your thoughts. Firstly, is it accurate in it's scripture claims, and secondly what do you think about it's conclusions if it is?

    " Unlike in Vedic scriptures, the Quran does not clearly recognize the SOUL as a distinct entity from the BODY. The soul is often referred as a source of all inclinations and desires (3:61, 12:53). The Arabic word `Nafs' has been translated differently by different translators: as SOUL, MIND, SPIRIT and even as HEART! The word `Nafs' at times refers to the individual (12:53), sometimes to the Soul (6:93, 39:42), and sometimes to God Himself (6:12,54)!. Of particular interest
    is verse 21:35 which says "Every soul shall
    have a taste of death.... ". This verse could mean:
    (i) that the Soul gets a taste of death after separation from the body, as Yousuf Ali interprets or
    (ii) that the Individual gets a taste of death
    as it is generally implied on most occasions (3:61, 51:21).

    Those who are of the opinion that `Nafs' in 21:35 only mean the real Soul would then have to consider this verse as another contradiction to verses 39:42 and 89:27-30 which imply that the Soul is taken back by Allah, momentarily during sleep and decisively at death. Does it mean that the Soul has no death?"

  135. Xmen442002

    Nafs are usually referrred to as "the self ego" and the struggle against this world and purification from it in the way of getting closer to God and further away from this world.
    The Quran tells of how the soul is either gently removed from our body or violently ripped out.
    Dpending upon the life you led while alive, the time in the grave is either passed in ease and comfort or it can feel as a suffocating experience and uncomfortable pending your judgement.
    Muslims believe that humans are asked three things by an angel that visits them in the grave.
    1) What is your religion?
    2) Who is your(appointed) prophet.?
    3) Who is your God?
    This answear, as well as the way your life was led, determines youir experience in the grave.
    There is no concept of time once we die and God tells us that this time will be like being asleep(when we are unaware of time)for not more than a day and then the day will be upon us for Judgement.

  136. Xmen442002

    To say we are God...to say we are divine?
    In what way are we divine?
    I can only control one thing to a certain extent(with resources available to me), my own life.
    If we are god, then why are we stuck here on earth?

  137. docoman

    Ok, the same basic idea as the Egyptian God Anubis and the weighing of the heart.
    Don't you find it weird that they'd go to the trouble of saying how you'll feel during your wait, but then also say it will be like being asleep and time isn't a factor, it'll seem like no time at all? Kind of defeats the purpose of the feelings during the wait.

  138. Xmen442002

    You can not see the wind, but you can see and feel it's effects.

  139. docoman

    Wind is different, it doesn't come under supernatural claims, so you haven't answered his question. Edit- or maybe you just did, if that's all the 'evidence' you have?

  140. Xmen442002

    I am not a Christian.

  141. docoman

    You infer that a God must be divine, and have supernatural powers. Both assumptions because of the word 'god'.

  142. Xmen442002

    My belief is for me alone.
    I do not say I am better because of what I believe, but it gives me(personally) reason to try and be a more compassionate human being toward my fellow man and all living creation.
    Many atheists or different relgions condone good acts and kindness to people, but my belief in God gives me more direct navigation in this area.
    I was kind to people before I believed in God and I did nice things before.
    My belief did not change that, it just enhanced it more.

  143. Xmen442002

    I am replying to humans in this forum not other life forms.
    If I could talk the language of animals or organic creations, then I could tell you more of what they feel and believe, but of course....this is not possible unless I was Dr. Doolittle.

  144. docoman

    At least you're honest enough of a believer to admit that is not where good morals originate. Many do make that claim, which you can see is incorrect.

    As a Muslim, how do you act towards apostates?

  145. docoman

    Apparently for a lot of people it won't be for something better, if yours and your fellow Abrahamisists are correct.

  146. docoman

    Missed the point... you have firstly made an assumption there MUST be some purpose to this life. And by saying we're straining to live a good life so as to go to place that is 'better and greater', you leave out animals, unless you think they've got choices about 'God' and their life choices to make too?

  147. Xmen442002

    God only sees us as better in our piety toward him.
    I on the other hand am human and no better than anyone else.
    Yes, it is true, that many people of faith have a "lofty" opinion of themself as being better because of their belief that they are 'saved".
    What they do not realize(in their belief), is that is completely up to God to determine their salvation or their damnation.
    Arrogance is indeed one human emotion that does some of the greatest of harm.

  148. Xmen442002

    We can only understand feelings as they pertain to us now because we live in a physical exisitence.
    The body is just a cavity or vessel.
    How do we know that the spirit of soul will not feel when we die while we still exist in the physical realm?
    Hard to determine this now and tell others.
    Only way to truly know is upon death?

  149. Xmen442002

    I answeared it.
    If you had belief in God, then you would see the answear.

  150. docoman

    Exactly, my underlying point though-out. How do we know there even is a soul? How does anyone alive know what happens when we die? Anyone that tells you they do know, is either delusional or a flat-out conman to me are the only logical conclusions. Any books that claim to know, are only as good as any other fiction of it's period. Especially the one's called 'scriptures', that contain contradictions and false claims though out them. They're not even any good as literature really.

  151. Xmen442002

    Faith in God for every individual lies within the human heart.
    The "word" or the books of God are manuals for opening the heart to God.
    To understand how the relationship works, you must read and understand all of the manuals(books).
    Each book(manual) is an update(or correction) on this perfect relationship/
    Unfortunately.....there are those humans that think they know better or the correct way for this relationship to function on this earthly existence better thanGod Himself.
    This is why we have the "word" of God in four different books(actually three that we have physical proof of and a fourth we were told once existed but was lost by humanity)

  152. docoman

    Hmm, clever of you, rolling up a strawman fallacy and combining it with the 'no true scotsman' fallacy.
    Still, a silly analogy of feeling wind is no evidence of anything supernatural. Do you have any evidence or not?

  153. Xmen442002

    Who am I to judge those that leave their faith(any faith)?
    I was once an apostate.
    God always leaves the door open for return.
    My return was as a Muslim.

  154. docoman

    I agree, Dr. Ehrman is a very good author and speaker, with quite a few interesting things to say about his research. At least the Qu'ran tells us that Mohammad was a war monger and commanded nasty deeds, like the Old Testament of the Bible did about their times. The NT forgot how jealous and vengeful that God supposedly is.

  155. Xmen442002

    Abraham is the root of all religions that profess faith in one God.
    This is an interesting thought.
    There are many people that believe in God, but do not follow a particualr relgion.
    You could say that they may be the ones against "organized" religion.
    I see their arguments as valid in many areas.
    Are they going to be turned away by God from heaven upon Judgement Day?
    I personally believe that it depends upon how they lived their life here and how they treated their fellow human brethren and if their good deeds heavily outweigh their bad ones.
    I can not pass judgement upon them.
    Only God knows this answear for sure.
    I really hope that they do make it.
    Honestly...I hope that the majority of human beings make it to heaven eventually if that is God's will?
    Eternity in hell is a long time to pay for the sins of an average life of 73 years on earth.
    Then again....only God knows and decides these issues.

  156. Xmen442002

    In the Quran, we are informed by God, that upon Judgement Day we will have to answear to "all" living creatures on earth for the injustice that we did to them while here.
    If we take the life of one of God's creations(animals) unjustly, then will have to answear to that accusation of why, directly from that creation itself.
    We as humans have no more right to this earth and its existence than do the animals and living creations that were here long before we were.
    We just happen to be the dominate species right now.

  157. Xmen442002

    This is about belief and faith and what resides in ones's heart and how they show the content of their heart by the way they live their life.
    The heart is the doorway to faith and belief in God.
    Without it wide open, a person will never fully grasp the nature of faith and spirituality in a relationship with God.
    Yes, many scriptures have been corrupted by man and they have attributed to God what He never said, so it is difficult for people to truly understand a correct way for faith.
    The only way to ge the correct way is to pray directly to God for it.
    Man can only lead the way to God so far and he can also do great damage as well thinking he has the answears for the way to God.
    Faith comes from a very personal relatrionship with God. He asks us for this, to make it personal.
    This is what makes the difference in faith to me.

  158. Xmen442002

    In the books of God(all of them), He gave mankind evidence upon evidence of His reality time and time again to people at different times of existence.
    And yet they still denied His reality..
    It is not for me to provide you with evidence.
    It is for God to do so if He wills it.
    I am human and you would not believe me(for I am no better than you remember).
    Many humans rejected the prophets sent to them by God and all of them were human as well.

  159. docoman

    Then you're not really following the directions of your God according to the Qu'ran 4:89 are you?
    Do you mind if I ask you why Islam? (I lived in Egypt for a couple years, made some good Egyptian friends)
    How does one choose which parts are to be obeyed, and which are not?

    Maybe you could consider going the whole hog, and just call yourself a believer, choosing what parts from whatever scriptures you feel are righteous and correct, and disregard the parts that don't feel right, call those parts man's interference in the Word? Take all the good bits, leave out all the bad. Surely if there is a God he'll see your sincerity?

    I'm not trying to convert you to anything, just understand your thinking. I have a different opinion as you know, we're allowed to think different, that's OK. You believe based on theological grounds, I don't believe any religion based on logical grounds.

  160. jackmax

    Just like I can't see you but I hear your Bullsh1t....

  161. Xmen442002

    Muhammad is greatly misunderstood in western society as is the Quran.
    You have to study Muhammad and the Quran to understand it correctly.
    Islam is a threat to Chrisitanity and Christianity rules in the west.
    It is difficult to get a fair perspectve of it living in the US or any other westernized nation.

  162. jackmax

    Just like I can't see you but I can hear your Bullsh1t....

  163. Xmen442002

    You must study the Quran to understand the passages correctly.
    1/3 of the Quran is a historical account of Islam in it's infancy in pagan Arabia.
    The passage you quote was directed toward the time of Muhammad only and pertains to those who directly were trying to uproot Islam at this time and to the people of his own tribe, the Quresh.
    The Quran is in no specific order other than from the longest to the shortest of surrahs.
    The rest of the Quran is God's direct words through Gabriel to Muhammad.
    God corrects what was corrupted by man in other books and the only prophet addressed in direct terms in the Quran is Muhammad(others are mentioned of course in brief outlines of ones who came forth with God's word before)

  164. Xmen442002

    Are you capable of intellectual comment or are you just one who can add nothing more than a mocking tone and a person of little vocabulary due to limits in education?

  165. docoman

    I'm not sure about the monotheist statement mate. The Egyptian Pharaoh Amenhotep IV, 5 years into his reign, somewhere about 1348 BCE, changed his name to Akhenaten, meaning "Effective for Aten", shut down the other temples, and made himself the High Priest for Aten, the Sun God. (Built a city in the middle of nowhere) He was the father of Tutankhamun, whose name was originally Tutankhaten, meaing "Living Image of Aten". The change to Tutankhamun, meaning "Living Image of Amun" shows how when Akhenaten died the monotheistic Aten religion was replaced back to what it was previously. It was a failed attempt at monotheism, most likely an attempt to curb the rising power of the priests compared to the Pharoah.
    (those 2 names were struck off the Kings record, again showing the disdain for 'messing with the Gods', which helped leave Tutankhamun's tomb unknown for Howard Carter to discover for us to marvel at today).

  166. docoman

    I was lucky to live in Egypt when I was 18 and 19, before the 9/11 thing made it like it is today. That was my first exposure to Islam, and I agree, seeing for yourself is better then a view through someone else's cultural lens. I have read a fair bit (not all of it) of the Qu'ran, and other relating pieces written by non westerners. And talked with numerous Muslims, and visited Mosques over there. In my experience, people are people, there's good and bad, whatever part of the world you're in.

    There are passages in the Qu'ran that are very violent, as I said in a post somewhere earlier, I view both the Qu'ran and Bible as products of their times. But to claim those morals and actions from then are commands for ways to live today, in my mind, is ludicrous. Which is what is claimed by the religions though ( I know you didn't, but others do). There is chopping off of heads and hands, raids etc in the Qu'ran, and I agree with you, they're from the times. Others like the earth being spread out flat like a carpet with the mountains as pegs, the heavens like a tent above etc etc. All decent descriptions of how they viewed the world then, but they fail badly on examination now. Especially claims like flying to the moon on a winged horse. Both the Bible and Qu'ran contain contradictions that a perfect being wouldn't allow in their message and rules, and have things wrong like a non-spherical earth for example.

    If someone gets some good advice and comfort from them, that's good, but claiming either one is the inerrant word of a perfect being is way more then that, and can't be correct, even on theological grounds (hence all the denominations and sects). Which leads us into the problems religion causes. They are at odds with each other by their own teachings, and always will be.

    That's not the way a perfect God would spread his one and only message, his only call to eternal life, our one chance to escape everlasting punishment. It needs to be studied properly or it's 'misunderstood'.

    It is consistent with man made BS over time, with some bits of truth and self evident things thrown in to help with the credibility.

  167. docoman

    Jackmax has seen for himself the results of Islam, much more candidly and honestly and up close then I have, or you I'll wager. Your wind answer is pretty basic and doesn't really give any answers. If you mean you can see 'God' or 'Allah' or whomever though His actions, you'd be better explaining what actions you mean and why.

  168. Xmen442002

    The Quran for me is the guide to my faith with God.
    But....as a Muslim, I know what parts apply to this day and age.
    I also study the bible intently because it is also God's word but in some places it was changed or added to by man.
    The Quran corrects what was corrupted by man and is very direct in it's guidence from God.
    The problem with Islam is, that many Muslims do not understand their own relgion(same with Christians) and they rely upon militant scholars and clerics that have other aspirations in mind rather than salvation of their followers in scholarly thouhgt.
    Muslims outright misinterpet hadith or use unsound hadith to explain the violent existence and a means to their end.
    I only adhere to the Quran and the Sunnah(the way of Muhammad) and I diregard almost all haddith or fatwas and figh(islamic law where there is no basis in the Quran).
    I also live in America where many Muslims are very different than their counterparts in thinking of the ME.

  169. oQ

    To me it may seem like 75yrs, to consciousness perhaps I am a thought living as a fleeting instant.

  170. jackmax

    Enlighten me with your wisdom, as so far you have not back anything up with facts or evidence. Until you have factual evidence or proof that your divine creator is real all your rants and raves are nothing more than religee dribble and I will continue to show the contempt I think all religees deserve.

  171. oQ

    Oh that's good!

  172. Xmen442002

    He should answer for himself.
    God's actions toward a believer depend upon the degree of faith and trust one has with their relationship to God.
    I pray and do not have the answer to things at time that are quite perplexing in my life and a bit troublesome for me, but I continue to pray and ask for clarity and a way to deal with the problem and God does answer me in revelation through my heart or in actions to be taken.
    How do I know it was from God?
    Because some of the issues I have dealt with were quite large to overcome and I felt trapped with no answer to them and felt helpless at the time, but my faith and prayer to God allowed me to work through it and then have an answer to the difficult tasks that at one time seemed to hard to overcome.

  173. Pysmythe

    Then you are without excuse.

  174. Xmen442002

    Some may call it consciousness, others call it your soul or spirit and if it is energy, then the soul, spirit or consciousness never dies.
    It goes on.......somewhere.
    You call it higher consciousness.
    I call it a diffrent realm(heaven or jannah).
    Our ways to obtain this though, are very different.

  175. Xmen442002

    Even if I were to give you proof....you would deny it because you do not want to believe.
    I do not believe I am ranting or raving.....
    Perhaps that is all you understand in dialogue??

  176. Pysmythe

    It was just a joke... Sorry you didn't pick up on it.

  177. Xmen442002

    Muslim.

  178. Pysmythe

    Yes, I saw that.

  179. docoman

    He can and will speak for himself, I know him.

    That's good you have overcome some hard issues. One little life lesson I learned in Egypt from seeing the beggers etc, is everyone in the world has their 'hassles', it's just to what degree of seriousness our particular problems are.

    I've been ill almost as long as you've been alive, which has taught me a few things along the way too. We can handle more then we think we can, if we have no choice. I'm not belittling your faith, and if that technique helped you get though the hard times its good. All I'm saying is that isn't the only technique, I get through some hard times myself by relying on myself and the few people on this planet that really love me, and some medical treatments at times. Its helped me to not rely on some 'outside force' to find my solutions, but to look for them myself.

    I'm not being smart-@ssed, but overcoming difficult problems isn't evidence of there being a God, just that it helped you psychologically to believe there is.

  180. docoman

    You seem to be a reasonable and decent bloke, but as you said, many people 'cherry-pick' to make sermons for their own ends, misleading others. You said you know which parts are relevant and which are not, how can you be sure your interpretation is correct? How is anyone supposed to know which parts to take heed and believe in, and which parts to ignore? That's a slippery slope mate.

  181. Achems_Razor

    You are talking in parables, Oh little grasshopper, say what you mean in more of a down to earth language. Better yet, give some sources, or are you just making this up?

  182. Pysmythe

    Potentially a Muslim Universalist? Is such a thing really even possible?

  183. Achems_Razor

    Is your god the one who made humans imperfect and then blames them for his mistake?

  184. Xmen442002

    Because i am blessed to have very good Muslim teachers who have taught me the correct path in Islam and what to avoid in it as well.
    I also have a Christian core from my beginning and it easily helps me to spot what is fabricated and not in both relgions.
    Remember that I study the Christian religion as well and this helps in dialogue with the Christians.
    Aethesists are a different group and tend for the most part, to be the intellects of this world.
    They are a difficult group to explain faith to, although I will say that they are more polite and thought provoking than most Christians I have come across on internet discussions.
    Study of the Quran is paramont to understanding Islam.
    Too many Muslims do not study it and instead listen to ill advised fatwa and unsound haddith as I mentioned before.
    David Icke said it best once with Problem-Reaction-Solution.
    The solution(or outcome one desires) is already on the table, now it is just a matter of getting to it they needs to be worked out.
    Same with Islamic radicals or NWO governemnts.

  185. docoman

    I'm agnostic. I don't know the answer to is there a God, but I feel I can rule out most of the organised religions fairly easily. I haven't seen any what I'd call evidence for an intervening deity. One thing that struck me as a child learning the Bible stories etc, is there is a Bible passage that says to enter heaven you must be baptized. Is there a prerequisite in Islam to entering Jannah? I assume a belief in Allah for starters?

    This brings up a problem. What about all the people who lived and never even heard of it? Bit of bad luck, born in the wrong country at the wrong time, destined for hell? What kind of 'loving' God wouldn't even give them a chance?

    Apart from a lack of evidence, there are also many theological problems, like the one I just mentioned. The only way around it, is to do what you've done, and start amending the religion. But as soon as you start doing that, all you've really done is create a new denomination, changed the rules to better suit our own theology.

    So where is the divine inspiration in that? Or the changes that come earlier on, or the original writings for that matter. It makes much more sense, and has evidence, that its the writings of men, not the Words of God.

  186. Xmen442002

    The Torah, the Old Testament, the Gospel, the New Testament, the Quran, the Nag Hamadi scriptures, the defense against the heretics in early Christian writings and the early Bishops of the church in writngs against other froms of Christianity, the lost works of the Ebionites(the Christian Jews), all the surviving greek manuscripts of the NT and other gospels that never made it in the final canon.
    You are the first to express to me of confusion in my words.
    Sorry about that.
    Sometimes the best way to answer a question is with another question to provoke thought and meaningful dialogue.

  187. jaberwokky

    We could apply what you've said here to the Christian or Jewish bibles too, as in not many people of any of the Abrahamic faiths understand their own religion. It is impossible to follow all the rules and dictates put forth in any one of these books without contradiction.

    I find it interesting to look at the disconnect between educated and uneducated followers, especially the clergy. I think most of us have noticed at this stage how the more educated members of the faithful are, the less likely they are to take the words from scriptures as literal and instead try to interpret it in some way that is beneficial to all. I'm not sure how this generalisation holds up with regards to Islam but for Christianity and Judaism it holds in my experience. As much as I loathe the source of their ideology it becomes obvious that there is inherent good in some of these people that can't be dismissed along with their book of fables. Then at the other end of the spectrum you have the knuckledraggers who think that the fossil records were put there by God to test their faith.

    Technically the Westboro Baptist Church are preaching the truth from the bible albeit as you would agree in a selective manner but when they spew bile like "God hates fags" they are not extrapolating or fabricating. It seems to me you can look into these books and find whatever you need to justify your behaviour and actions no matter what your motives. That should tell you something.

  188. Xmen442002

    Interesting concept.
    I can assure you that I am not like any other Muslim you may have met.
    I was born and raised into a Christian family and then, like so many here....I dived into the world to take what it would give to me and forgot and even mocked those that believed in religion. I lived this lfe for 25 years and then I cane back to God as a Muslim.
    Not the path of many I am sure, but it does instill a faith that is unshakeable in belief in only one God.
    What makes me Muslim, is what is in my heart, not what I look like, for I do not look or speak like what many believe a Muslim to be.
    Out of 100 people in a room, it would be reasonable to see, if you were to start trying to figure out who among the crowd was a Muslim, that I would be in the last 10 and perhaps the last 2.

  189. Pysmythe

    Since I see Docoman is getting clever with the math references, let's toss a little Kurt Godel into the mix, shall we?

    Let "even with myself" = "I am sometimes odd even to myself"

    Well, ultimately this will not work, will it, because you will always need another "myself" to explain how it would even be possible to be odd with "myself," so that YOU have been neither odd nor even with anyone.

    (my head hurts)

  190. Xmen442002

    Humans made themselves imperfect.
    God gave us free will to perfect our imperfections in life on this earth.
    Satan continues the imperfection of humans here with traps of this world(greed, lust, power, brute force for submission and money.)

  191. docoman

    Beside yourself with curiosity?

  192. jaberwokky

    "To understand how the relationship works, you must read and understand all of the manuals(books)."

    That sound pretty much like what the Scientology crowd would have you believe.

  193. Pysmythe

    That, or biting myself on the ass without realizing it, lol.

  194. Xmen442002

    In the Quran, we are told to believe in only one God.
    As Muslim, I am expected to do 5 things(3 are absolutely mandatory).
    1) Shadda(testimony of faith in one God and Muhammad as the prophet of Islam and the message of the Quran)
    2) Salat(prayer) five times daily to connect with God in a world controled by nevil and satan. The world is that powerful a grip, that as Muslims we need to connect with God five times daily(some pray more) to break the grip of worldly influences.
    In the west, this can be difficult to do as a Muslim as society is not set up for this..
    3) Zakat( charity). this kind be monetary or it can be in goodwill and good deeds toward ANY human being without expecting somthing in return. We do these things to be seen by God only and not for human approval( at least this is the way it is supposed to be).
    4) Rammadan, which is a mopnth long celebration of purification of fasting from sun up to sun down and refraining from the pleasures of this life. As a western Muslim, this has been a difficult one for me to keep perfectly.
    5) Hajj or pilgimage to Mekkah and to the Kabbah(built by Abraham and Ismael).
    1 thru 3 are a must with no exceptions.
    as for you question about those that have not heard......no.....God does not hold them responsible for rejection for they did not hear His laws and therefore are not subject to eternal torment.
    Newborns of any faith on non beleif are also not held accountable if they die early, the same as children that have not reached the age of sound intellectual reasoning.
    So you can see..... that God does have mercy upon those who are not labeled as believers.
    But those that have heard and make a conscious choice due to free will......they will be held accountable according to the Islamic faith.
    Are all Christians condemed? No.
    Are all Jews condemed? No
    It can get complicated to explain what happens upon Judgement Day to those that are wavering on the brink of heaven or hell.

  195. docoman

    lol, I prevent that by putting a foot in my mouth. :)

  196. Pysmythe

    Consulting 'Self-Deprecating Metaphors Database' now!
    Here's one... the first one: I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.
    lulz

  197. Xmen442002

    I can agree with you here.
    The doctrines are bent to serve a purpose.
    Who's purpose, God's or mans?
    Not hard to see that it is more for man than God.
    Is it a sin to be homosexual or lesbian??? According to all religious texts, yes.
    Is this a sin that will dtermine hell or heaven?
    I think that is illogical to think that God would throw someone into hell because they preferred the company of their own sex.
    God(in my view) will take a much closer look at how one conducted their life in accordance to what He tells us to do and what we did in kindness to all of his creation while here(not just humans).
    God knows we are going to sin time and time again and some sins we will repeat our entire life without correcting them.
    But if we correct what we know to be wrong... then He is going to let us know the merit of doing so.
    I do not believe hell is a dwelling place forever(perhaps for a slect few).
    But the Quran talks of penalties and punishement.
    The purpose of penalties and punishment is for breaking the rules or laws..
    Some punishment is more enduring due to the severe nature of that transgression.
    So is my belief in hell.
    There are Muslim scholars who believe this as well.

  198. Xmen442002

    Yes.....but scientology has been around since the mid 1900's.
    Not so with Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
    Over time.....the message becomes distorted and fableized in many regards.
    The search for the truth(or the majority of truth) is what seperates one true in faith as opposed to one in title only who follows the lead of others and does not reason for themself.

  199. jaberwokky

    I could ask you the same question, I'm seeing very little of an intellectual nature in what you are espousing. So far it's just been the same ol' dogma lacking any insight or any real questioning of your own values while at the same time reminding the non believers about the hell that awaits. How dishonest of you.

  200. jaberwokky

    Yes but? Haha ok.

    "Over time.....the message becomes distorted and fableized in many regards."

    By your logic that I will infer that Scientology is the truth ... seeing as it hasn't been around long enough for the message to become distorted and fableized.

    And in second place I'll put the Mormons.

    Sounds legit.

  201. Xmen442002

    There are non believers that won't end up in hell. Read farther into my postings to see it explained.
    I am looking for logical thinking here as are many.
    If he has somthiong to add that is adding to the discussion, then great!
    But the place for insults is in places with biased opinions with no intellect to back it up.
    I mislead no one.
    Everyone has a choice.
    My choice is for me only.
    We are ultimately responsible for our own beliefs and the outcome of them in this world.
    To each his own.

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