The Bible Unearthed

Ratings: 7.55/10 from 53 users.


The Bible UnearthedThe Bible is both a religious and historical work, but how much is myth and how much is history? When and why was the Old Testament written, and by whom? What do contemporary archaeologists know about the Patriarchs? The Exodus?

The Conquest of Canaan? Kings David and Solomon? Where do the people of Israel originally come from? Why were the historical accounts of the Bible written down?

A masterful archaeological and biblical investigation, The Bible Unearthed visits digs in Egypt, Jordan and Israel - including Megiddo, the cradle of biblical archeology, where 7,000 years of history have been excavated.

This far-ranging exploration of biblical history also makes use of archival footage of previous archaeological excavations, maps, biblical illustrations and computer animation, revealing ancient architecture, cuneiform tablets and other rare artifacts.

Based on the best-selling book of the same name, this enthralling documentary features interviews with archaeological specialists and biblical scholars from all over the world, including experts from the Louvre, the Museum of Cairo, the Museum of Jerusalem, and the British Museum.

The Bible Unearthed does something which has never been done before: it reveals a still-unraveling revolution of what we know of the society, the history, and the men who wrote the Bible.

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798 Comments / User Reviews

  1. Profixs

    1Ti 6:20 O Timothy! Watch over that which has been entrusted to you, turning aside from the profane and empty babblings and contradictions of the falsely called ‘knowledge,’
    1Ti 6:21 which some, having professed it, have missed the goal concerning the belief. Favour be with you. Am?n.

  2. tariqxl

    The church called Galileo Galilei a heretic for something later proven to be true. Darwin had the same problem and the very Idea of the big bang was also heresy. Now the church proclaim that not only did God create the Earth but he triggered the big bang and created all these things that early man did not know existed. The very word heresy come from ancient Greek to mean choice funny how choice goes against the same God that introduced evil to man to allow a choice. I'm not saying there is no God but clearly man did not want to allow his fellow man a choice so instead of spouting scripture written by MAN find your OWN sense of what God is.

  3. BlackDog Aura

    when will xtians roll over. and fade away.

  4. Nicholas Lazarou

    sorry darwin is firmly placed with medieval folly thinking.
    the catholics persecuting gaileo was not a greek dillemma. the new age of science contained the same set of medieval presuppositions as the pseudo catholic middle ages. true christianity is there but the catholic church was not christian.

  5. Nicholas Lazarou

    archaeology does confirm the bible, unless atheists subscribe to magic wishful thinking and leap;s of faith

  6. Branefart

    Too many religions. Pick one and get on with your lives people!

  7. misterwong

    Are you suggesting that meticulous science,investigation,analysis,countless man-hours of collecting artifact and data are all meritless?Anything that exposes inconsistancies in Judaic scripture(persuant to fact,and therefore a more accurate perspective of the Bible)seems to elicit the same reaction from the defenders of Holy Writ:obtuse deference.The quotation of scriptural passages to prove its' unassailable veracity.Why is the bible historically accurate?Because it says it is.That is convenient for those content to not ask questions and unwilling to examine their beliefs.

  8. biblelover

    As soon as I see a Rothschild production that automatically tells me that this film is heresy.the bible is the truth and nothing or nobody will deceive.The vatican, rotschilds,rocerfellers,c.ia.,nazis,tsa,nsa,skull and bones,cfr,united nations,freemasons,club of rome,trilatetral commision,the jesuits and on and on goes the evil-the new world order will fail when Jesus the living word destroys them all with the brightness of his coming.

  9. Aaylsworth


  10. ordasityofnope

    yeah, that sounds totally true.

  11. ordasityofnope

    wow, what an articulate and well founded statement!

  12. Joel Myers

    i recommend you watch Zeitgeist my friend...

  13. ordasityofnope

    1st Larry 1:9000 Cool story bro.

  14. Guest

    Interseting this interest in 'lumps of stone' that usd to be , the way things things were. How about doing something about the way things are?. AND doing things to help.....just a thought..we ain't got milleniums, we got NOW X

  15. Guest

    btw.. How can there be be ancient txt when phones weren't even invented?

  16. bbol

    Only God knows the truth , and follow your heart..people.

  17. norlavine

    Of course there were 'ancient texts'. The word 'text' refers to whatever is used to represent a language. It's not a new product of this modern world, it just means written language. Were we having a little joke? eh? xx

  18. Epicurus

    Darwin is placed firmly in the realm of one of the greatest minds humanity has known. without evolution biology makes no sense.

    what was wrong about Darwin, if you would?

  19. Epicurus

    As someone studying archaeology you are right it does confirm somethings in the bible just like it confirms some places in the Illiad and Odyssey. just like it confirms some places in many other ancient texts. that doesnt mean the supernatural claims contained within the texts are also true.

  20. firefly88

    i like what you said...the simplest solution to this unending war on whose religion or belief is better...

  21. englishgirlinjapan

    Thank you Vlatko for all the recently added and thought provoking documentaries.

    Am not a regular poster, but just wanted to say that I think this doc would certainly be preferable, with the clear and simple, non biase narration, to be shown and taught in religious classes in schools.

    It's not preachy, but well balanced with the parallel research of archeological evidence and the original chronological texts, depicting the historical stories of the kings and leaders and their violent and territorial struggles and then the ultimate conclusion of what appears to be an original, for want of a better word, "holy book".

    I think with an impartial teacher and alongside the many other godly and spiritual beliefs, the students would be able to question, research, debate and ultimately form their own opinions about religion, instead of the indoctrinated teachings that are currently in place today. Just at thought.

  22. tomregit

    "Too many religions. Pick one and get on with your lives people"

    No, I have opted to pick none.

  23. AndyA121

    Sounds like another "Squid story" to muddle the clear waters of Gods truth.

  24. His Forever

    Baddog: Not as long as I still have breath in my lungs, thank you very much!

  25. His Forever

    Tariqxl: I don't support how repressive the Catholic church has been in the past--they don't like me either as a "Protestant". Don't confuse the works of God with the failings of religious people that may or may not truely represent God's interests. You sound very "repressive" to me now. What makes you any different than those of the past that wanted to suppress "heresy" when you'd think one can believe anything he wants except the Bible? How tollerant of you.

  26. Guest

    I know I should find this interesting but honestly, the music and the tone of voice are perfect for falling asleep to. :(

  27. robertallen1

    Not only are you ignorant, but you want everyone else to be.

  28. robertallen1

    Not only are you ignorant, but you want others to be--heresy, how pathetic.

  29. AndyA121

    Thank you Robert! I shall take that as a compliment, God knows who I am.

  30. robertallen1

    How do you know this?

  31. pulunco

    I don't think I can handle 3.5 hours of listening to how a story book was written by uneducated hut dwellers in the bronze age. I will pass on this one.

  32. biblelover

    robertallen 1 If you want to think I"m ignorant,thats fine,you a right to think what you want,thats your choice.Frankly I don"t care what you think I"m only concerned what God (Jesus) thinks about me.When something comes from a Rothschild production you gotta wonder what the agenda is or if 90% of it is true and 10% a deception,just enough poison to get us to doubt God true word the KJV Bible in which good people died at the stake to get to us.Thanks to the inquisition and the jesuits.

  33. robertallen1

    If you don't care, why respond?

    One way or the other, the more you post, the more your ignorance shows--the KJV Bible, as if every version of Bible before that were not "God's true word."

  34. Dami Akomolafe

    some people here are just being ass holes....Religion has been used for both EVIL and GOOD! just like accept what is in front of you, not just its cool to say religion sucks.... Get real man

  35. Mário Silvério

    at least get the facts strait, "(jesus)" is not god. jesus is the son of god. God, made jesus out of a virgin, and jesus asked god help, of course god couldn't give a f*** and made him perish in the cross. The inquisition and the jesuits were so far way in time that no one can realy relate the two events in historic facts.
    Of course, being you a bible lover. nothing of this realy mater, you will go on trying to make sense of what "true christian" tell you, disregarding everything that makes sense.

  36. robertallen1

    I have gotten real and religion sucks!

  37. biblelover

    To Mario Silverio Jesus is God the flesh became the Word.In the beginning was the Word,and the Word was with God and the Word was God.What part of beginning don"t you get.

  38. robertallen1

    How you can believe this garbage.

  39. biblelover

    furturemore I'm grateful and blessed that I know the truth.The Bible says the whole world will be deceived by the beast.Hint beast in bible prophecy means kingdom.Theres the sea beast and there is the land beast that enforces the worship of the sea beast .And by the looks of things the mark of the beast is around the corner.But you have to know who the beast is before you can know what the mark of the beast is.

  40. robertallen1

    Why don't you learn something about the the Bible and especially its history before you go spouting off or are you too proud of your ignorance?

  41. Achems_Razor


    You are one scary dude, does insanity run in your family? or are you the only one that is blessed?

    You are the prime example of what is wrong in the country. Or it just dawned on me, maybe you are trying to be a troll supreme! You just can't be for real.

  42. Top_Quark

    that's very true for all biblelovers out there

  43. firechild

    I hate when you scroll the comments trying to find out if this is worth watching and all you find are flame wars with no actual insight on the actual documentary :(

  44. Sieben Stern

    edit: OK, final verdict, unless you're a bible beater this is bunk at best :3

    you can tell by watching the first ten minutes of any religious docu - if they make any statement hinting that they are out to prove the bible true or already think that it is, it's religious propaganda and not worth the time ^^

  45. Sieben Stern

    my issue with this docu is that it is taking the bible as the starting point and shifting things to fit - as opposed to looking at the archaeology first then determining what happened. it is not as blatant as some other religious docus that i've seen, it's more insidious.

    the moment they said exodus happened i knew it was totally bunk! ^^ there was no record of jewish slaves in egypt or their massive leaving, let alone 2 million XD

  46. AndyA121

    I read the Bible.

  47. robertallen1

    So what? That doesn't mean anything if you know nothing about what you're reading.

  48. AndyA121

    If you don't like my posts then just don't read them.

  49. Guest

    Right, not sure if anyone ever use this fonction. At the end of the name box, you press on the minus sign and it will collapse that comment, the next time you come back to the thread, they'll still be there.

  50. Jack1952

    @ Sieben Stern

    I had to watch the part of the Exodus over again after reading your comment. The archaeologist said that there is no archaeological record of any kind supporting the Exodus as told in the Bible. As a matter of fact he goes on to say that any migration of 2 million people out of Egypt is impossible due to the lack of any archaeological record. All they could substantiate was that the Exodus was written in the 7th century BC. That is as close as it gets to saying it actually happened.

    At the beginning of the documentary, it tells us that early archaeologists tried the prove the veracity of the Bible when going on their digs. It then goes on to say that this was not the proper approach. It does say that the Bible can be helpful when going on a dig but goes on to say that it cannot be used as an historical text book (paraphrasing).

    One cannot study the time period of this area without having a discussion of the Bible. It is the only literary work that is over 2000 years old that is relevant. What this documentary appears to say that the Bible is a combination of myth, legend, history and religion rolled into one story. Hardly the stuff of true history but important in understanding the past of this controversial country. I can understand the feelings against the Judeo christian and Islamic religion. These feelings should not become a bias preventing one from examining the Bible or history in an objective way. Just because some of the stories in the Bible have some truth to them does not, in any way, prove the existence of God. People have to get over this misconception.

  51. Sieben Stern

    i didn't catch that part of the exodus comment then. my apologies.

    i would just like to see the science go the other way for once, instead of being taffied into fitting into the bible and being derived from bible sources (which aren't as true as some people would like you to think) to be taken just from what the archaeology states.

    take the exodus - there is no evidence that it happened, in any way the bible states, but they keep trying to wiggle square facts into the round keyhole. like the idea that hebrew slaves built the pyramids. there was never any evidence that it happened, but because of people overlaying the bible onto history they had this misconception for a long time. if they would have just looked at the actual dig sites which showed egyptians built them, there would have never been this error - which, to this day, some people still assert.

    these days it is all to easy for theists to take a spattering of historical references from their books and then conclude that the whole thing is true. it's a stretch to assume they (who already believe) would understand the fine line between historical truth, embellishment by the victor, retold myth, and random made up stuff by a man sitting in the desert. Mixing religion into the law code and the historical makes the document suspect to manipulation, more so than say, the egyptian scribes accounting for grain totals.

    the one time i think mythological documents were useful in really understanding history was finding troy. there is history there, but you have to scrape of layers and layers of myth to find it, and in the end you can tell more by just looking at the archaeology and what the earth gives up when you start to dig.

  52. adilrye

    SO TRUE. Especially for documentaries about this particular subject matter.

  53. robertallen1

    When it comes to a conflict between archaeology (science) and the Bible, I'll take archaeology (science) every time.

  54. robertallen1

    Fine blog, but other than the Iliad, what else do we have about the Trojan Wars other than what came after Homer?

  55. Sieben Stern

    there were hittite and egyptian sources for the location of Troy, the hittites under the name Wilusa.

  56. Sieben Stern

    it won't let me post a link to archeology (dot) org, but it has lots of information about hittite sources for the location of troy under the name wilusa.

    go to that site and search ' was there a trojan war' all the info needed :3

  57. robertallen1

    If more people studied Biblical history and criticism for the reasons and in the way you described and (I'm certain you won't mind if I throw in comparative religion), we might be spared the likes of creationism, faith healing and spiritualism. Peter Popov, Benny Hinn and Ken Hamm would have to find other ways to bilk the naive. Just think of it, science classes might be used to teach science and nothing else. However, I'm probably dreaming.

    One point I need to correct you on: the Epic of Gilgamesh from Mesopotamia and the Babylonian writings about Horus and other gods, to name two, are at least 1,000 years older than the Bible and as they parallel it in many respects, are of unquestionable relevance.

  58. robertallen1

    I get my amusement where I can.

  59. robertallen1

    Thanks for the information.

    I saw one archaeologically-based documentary on Troy which I believe is on this website.

    My question is really do we have anything in writing about the Trojan Wars not based on Homer or later archaeological finds. Please forgive me for my lack of precision.

  60. rodneypeter

    All religions take ''a little of one and a little of another'' Genesis was writen by a guy who wanted to change the world, and maybe he did...but until they find pictures or whatever you call those drawings in Egypt ABOUT the's still just a guy telling a story and that's it...

  61. Sieben Stern

    I apologize for the double post, i thought it ate the first one. and is no longer responding. i hope it's not because of my link and just a coincidence! ^^;

    I'm not sure what you're asking for?

    troy was discovered in the 1870s, and the hittite sources were found in the 1920 - 1930's - is this the issue you have? anything in we have in writing would be from an archaeological find later than homer, but originating from a time period preceding homer.

    My earlier use of troy as an example was a good example for using a myth to find a real place. "the one time i think mythological documents were useful in really understanding history was finding troy. there is history there, but you have to scrape of layers and layers of myth to find it, and in the end you can tell more by just looking at the archaeology and what the earth gives up when you start to dig."

  62. a_no_n

    the bible is the truth and nothing or nobody will deceive.

    The big problem with Belief, is that it needs a lie in the middle of it to hold both ends together...You've already been decieved i'm afraid.

  63. a_no_n

    Good and evil is a childish notion...employed by people too ignorant/unwilling to see the billions of shades of grey inbetween!

  64. a_no_n

    the bit that tells us where god came from!

  65. biblelover

    a_no_n So tell me what the truth is then since it seems like you know.Jesus said I am the truth, the way and the life,no one comes to the father but trough me.Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness And your law is truth.You are near O LORD,And all Your commandments are truth.The ten commandments,ever hear of them.The ones God wrote with his finger on tablets of stone.

  66. Irishkev

    More Zionist propaganda.

  67. Achems_Razor


    There is no Jesus, no gods, the only ones there are are the ones that you fundy happy clappy religee's manufacture in your minds, invisible and telepathic deities. Countless millions in recorded history.

    Show me just "one" living and breathing god, one is all that I ask, and do not give me any "for the man-made bibles told me so circular logic!"

    The burden of proof lies squarely on the shoulders of the party making the assertions. "which is you"!

    And which commandments are you referring to, the originals? or the ones that came after?

  68. Jack1952

    @ Irishkev

    Propaganda. That's hilarious. Unless you're serious. Then your hilarious.

  69. Guest

    I'd show you a live one but my computer won't allow me to put that mirror through in order for you to see the reflection of your Self.
    Close your eyes, it will do the same.
    That's the closest to what God could be, one at a time.

  70. Jack1952

    @ robertallen1

    Comparative religion is usually more conjecture than fact. However, I have always thought that the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Biblical flood may be describing the same event. Before writing, oral traditions were very important. There is evidence that when the glaciers melted after the ice age that there were immense and catastrophic tidal waves. (Google Lake Agassiz) These floods were beyond anything we see today. It does not seem unlikely that the survivors would retell their experiences, wrapped up in their religious beliefs and eventually these stories becoming part of the folk lore. Had I survived an immense flood back then I might believe I was specially blessed by the gods, too.

    I wonder how many legends there were that the writers of the Bible left out because it did not suit their monotheistic beliefs. I would imagine that there are a lot of great stories that have been long forgotten because they were deemed religious heresy.

    I've always said that there is no reason that someone called Jesus lived 2000 years ago. If Benny Hinn can convince supposedly educated people of his ability to perform miracles today, how much easier would it have been for a man to do the same, living in a time where religious superstition was science. Once again, even it was proved that a man called Jesus lived, it doesn't prove the existence of God or that Benny Hinn can cure my bursitis.

  71. Eniki520

    if their were gods would they have to breath? they would be some type of higher life form what makes you think they would need to eat or sleep the way we humans do? it could be like some crazy worm hole alien from star trek(non-linear non-coporeal entity). also absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, if you cant disprove it why do you expect them to prove it?

  72. justcuri0us

    There are refutes to the claim about the Egyptian god Horus and the comparison of him to Jesus; the original comparison was fabricated by a Zeitgeist named Acharya S who cites the "similarities" between Jesus and Horus only to the bible - if you research Horus as the Egyptians actually believed in him, he was not from "virgin" birth, not from a father named Joseph (his father was Osiris), and did not die from crucifixion (which didn't exist until 600 BC) and according to the Egyptian book of the Dead Horus "died" and was resurrected in a swamp. The Horus conspiracy is rubbish, however there may be relevance in the Epic of Gilgamesh story

  73. Jack1952

    @ Achems_Razor

    There is a waitress down at the pub who is a living, breathing goddess. I look at her and you will get in touch with the metaphysical.

  74. Eniki520

    genesis and alot of the stories from the old testament are basically just a retelling of the Sumerian creation myths based on Enki. Enki created man from clay, Enki also assisted humanity to survive the Deluge. its not an original mythos. egypt isnt the oldest culture to have religion. and its beliefs were based off those of earlier cultures just as christians based their mythos off those of older civilizations.

  75. Irishkev

    I'm glad that you are amused. Most if not all the speakers in this doc are Jewish. The Zionists use the bible to bolster their claim to Israel. However most of the Zionists now living in Israel are of Eastern European ancestry. Tell me Jack, what's so hilarious? Did you watch the doc?

  76. Draw Vinette

    Much of the history of the Bible originates in 10,500BC in the Egyptian culture. Before watching this documentary it is very important to watch "The Naked Truth" another documentary on this site that I believe better explains the history of the Biblical stories and religious symbols used in 17 similar Christian like religions. Many of these stories and their later religious adoptions have their roots in 10,500BC Egyptian culture.

    Israel = is much better explained as the adoption of three religions that were being practised in Egypt. Is = Isus = Goddess of wisdom = study of the stars, Ra = Sun = God of the Sun (the Egyptian religion of worshiping the sun on Sun-day), El = Saturn = God of Saturn / God of our solar system (the Egyptian religion of worshiping the planet Saturn on Saturday)

    Israel is so named because it was created by a people who wanted to the freedom to practice all three religions. Is = Isus = Goddess of wisdom = study of the stars, Ra = Sun = God of the Sun (the Egyptian religion of worshiping the sun on Sun-day), El = Saturn = God of Saturn / God of our solar system (the Egyptian religion of worshiping the planet Saturn on Saturday)

    The Christian religion really worships the sun = God of the sun = Son of God (where sun = son). The day of worship is Sun - day = Sunday. Sunday was the day of the week to worship the god RA = sun = Horus in the ancient Egyptian culture.

    Jewish people worship the planet Saturn = El = God of the Solar System. El was worshipped by the ancient Egyptian culture on Saturn - day = Saturday in modern times.

    The basis of the Jewish religion and the Christian religion all have their roots in ancient Egypt beginning in 10,500BC.

    The saying "Jesus born of the Virgin Mary".
    Jesus = son of God = God of the sun where Jesus = Sun
    Virgin = constellation Virgo
    Mary = Isus = Goddess of wisdom = study of the stars and planets / astronomy
    In ancient Egyptian times the sun rose in the constellation Virgo.
    "Jesus born of the Virgin Mary" = The sun rising in the constellation Virgo and observed and understood by the goddess of wisdom / astronomy Isus = Mary.

    This documentary gets a little side tracked by limiting its history to 2,500BC and later, when in fact the biblical stories and their sayings have their roots 10,500BC and earlier.

  77. biblelover

    I guess thats what faith is.I know there is Jesus because of what he has done for me.Just because something is invisible does not mean it does not exit.the invisible (eternal God) made the visible.How can the prophets know future events unless the Holy Spirit tells them.Thank you for your response.

  78. Jack1952

    Imagine! Jews studying Jewish history. What's next? Canadians studying Canadian history? We won't stand for it!

    Actually, I've watched it twice. I've been properly indoctrinated,

  79. Achems_Razor

    Only going by what the religee's always say, created man in the gods image.

    And the religee's are always communicating with their gods telepathically, pray tell what language do they use.

    Even our internal dialogue that we all succumb to is said in the language that we are accustomed to.

    We do not have to prove there are no gods. The onus lies with the religious, that are forever spouting off, trying to garner new recruits, that is one of the prerequisites to maintain their religion it seems.

  80. robertallen1

    There is nothing speculative about comparative religion as it objectively compares and contrasts different belief systems using the evidence on hand.

    Otherwise, your post makes many cogent points, one of which, occuring in your second paragraph, I would like to add to by bringing up the history of Christian religious doctrine from about 100-300 A.D. and beyond.

    Benny Hinn is a joke and anyone, educated or not, who falls for his line is as much of one.

  81. robertallen1

    And Christ wasn't from "virgin birth" either--this is a mistranslation of the Greek. However, the idea of miraculous birth is similar to some of the stories about Horus (see article in Wikipedia). On the other side of the spectrum, the post-mortem appearances are also startling similar--and these are not idle similarities. I could go on, but---

    My point is that the writers of both testaments obviously drew (if not stole) from earlier sources.

  82. robertallen1

    You sum it up beautifully, but just explaining that to fundamentalist.

  83. robertallen1

    No, you don't know--and no one, even the so-called prophets knows the future and ever did.

  84. Jack1952

    I understand your point but even my musings about the flood are just that. There is a logic to it but I would not say that this must be the explanation. The best I could say is that it is a possibility.

  85. Top_Quark

    Israel Finkelstein is a very distinguished archaelogist and his book is not only a major best-seller but is also well-respected amongst historians & archaelogists. Now my take on this one.

    There are 2 schools of thought with respect to Biblical history and actual history as known to us from modern archaeology in Israel and nearby countries: Biblical “Minimalism” and “Maximalism”. Maximalists (mostly Americans) believe that the stories in Bible about the great prophets are more or less literal truths and that Abraham’s great journey from Iraq to Israel, Moses’ Exodus story and David & Solomon’s great empires were real. On the other hand, Minimalists (many modern day archaeologists/scholars) set aside the Bible and do their own research on archaeological sites and the ancient writings and say that there is no evidence that Abraham and Moses even existed (although there is evidence that David & Solomon were real persons) and that all of the Bible was written in around 700BC to 200BC from ancient memory and oral tales surviving around Israel.

    The truth may lie somewhere in between, Abraham/Moses might have existed but could not leave behind clues (other than the Bible itself) since they were commoners and not kings who could built great structures. The Bible may have some truth if you look at basic facts and outlines but when you go into details (e.g. per Bible David built a great empire when in fact he was the ruler of a medium sized town) it has many anachronisms and everything is so exaggerated that it is hard to believe. It is also true that Bible (Old Testament) was mostly written in around 600 BC by scholars of Judean king Josiah who was strictly monotheistic and played a great hand in transforming Israeli society from largely pagan into a monotheistic society. Hence Josiah greatly embellished the old stories of prophets so that they appear grand and that people start believing in them.

    In short 'The Bible really is a combination of myth, legend, history and religion rolled into one' as Jack1952 says below. Biblical stories have borrowed a lot from regional mythologies (e.g. Sumerian creation myths and the Creation story in Bible as well as the Epic of Gilgamesh & Noah’s Flood). These stories were told in such a way that the ancient people could relate to stories that they somehow already knew. However, these biblical stories had a huge Monotheistic twist; instead of multiple gods it was now One God who created the world and is controlling it.

  86. Jack1952

    Too many mathematical equations. You're all over the place joining similar words, people, gods and ideas into what you claim is the truth. You may have some points but it would be going too far to say that this is exactly how it happened.

  87. robertallen1

    I like your post, but you're too much of a diplomat. Let's face it, the preponderance of the evidence lies with the minimalists.

    As long as you mention Josiah's embellishments, why not go further and state, as did the documentary, that the Old Testament was incarnated into virtually its present form at the time of Ezra, 300 B.C. (Do you have any idea if he really existed?).

  88. reasonlogic

    "Just because something is invisible does not mean it does not exit."
    You did mean ...."exist"

    Remember ....always take all the medicine the doctor gives you.
    If you do not take the entire course of the prescription you end up making comments such as that above.

  89. biblelover

    To reasonlogic I"m sure you know what I mean"t.But of course you might be to logical.

  90. biblelover

    I"m sure you know what I mean"t.But then again you might be too logical.

  91. Guest

    biblelover - you are too stupid man!! Come on.. I don't like to live in this earth because theres people like you in it!!! HELPP!!!!!!!!!!

  92. chriswes

    Robertallen1 - Agree with you.

  93. reasonlogic

    When it comes to matters of determining what is fact and what is fiction..... one "cannot" be too logical.

    As an example we do not teach children that 1+1=3...that is not logical nor true. 1+1=2 is logical ...verifiable and repeatable.

    Why then would one teach young children that an all seeing all knowing god exists ........when the actual existence of this god or any other is not provable by any verifiable repeatable test?

    It is akin to mental child abuse.

  94. robertallen1

    Perhaps I'm being picky, but 1+1=10 is also logical, verifiable and repeatable on a binary system.--I almost wish you had not used math which is basically definitional, axiomatic and hence deductive.

    However, without going into what is and is not logical, your premise holds.

  95. Atm Abdullah

    this documentary has opacity i think what they want to prove they don't know it

  96. sws420

    Here is what I was told.....Faith is the key

  97. Alfred Shumate

    As I suspected,The whole documentary's purpose is to disprove the Bible.If they can destroy the link between Abraham,Isaac and Jacob they destroy the geneaology of Christ and thereby his legitimacy as King.Take out the foundation and the whole church crumbles.The only problem is that carbon dating isn't even accurate past about 3000 years ago so how do they know how long camels have been domesticated?Just another secular whine in the direction of something much greater then themselves.

  98. robertallen1

    No! No! No! You know absolutely nothing about radiometrics.

    Why don't you read up on the subject before making such an ignorant statement!!! There's a fine article in Wikipedia about it.

  99. matt laird

    C-14 has a half-life of 5730 years...

  100. wald0

    I agree whole heartedly, unfortunatley this happens on every doc. on this site that deals with religion. Its the nature of the topic I suppose.

  101. wald0

    To answer your question, or should I say assertion, carbon dating is not the only means they have to date organics. That said the half life of carbon-14 is 5730 years and, it can be used to accurately date organics less than fifty thousand years old (9 half lives). Things older than this can be dated accurately using naturally occuring radio active isotopes with much longer half lives, that is if they contain said isotopes. Uranium for instance has a half life of 710 million years. Science is an amazing thing, maybe you should understand it before you dismiss it out right.
    As a chemist that works with radioactive decay I have used carbon dating myself on items of a known age, guess what- the carbon date confirmed exactly what we already knew. I don't pretend to understand the exact mathematical logic behind the equation used, T=T1/2/0.693 ln(N0/N1), all I know is it works to give you the age in years of the item tested, if you sub in the correct values. Through out the years of personal experience with science in general, mostly physics and chemistry, I have found that math can be trusted above all else, definitely much more than conjecture and anecdotal evidence.

  102. robertallen1

    Well, put.

    I would appreciate your opinion on the article on radiometrics in Wikipedia.

  103. Epicurus

    LOL, carbon-14 dating is accurate up to 60,000 years. and if that doesnt work there are MANY other dating methods that all converge on the same date to show accuracy.

    dont be mad at science because it shows your thousands of year old myths to not be true. just deal with it, grow up, and move on.

  104. Epicurus

    the key to staying ignorant.

  105. reasonlogic

    "I almost wish you had not used math which is basically definitional, axiomatic and hence deductive."

    Axiomatic or self evident truth is what the god debate is all about.

    Faith itself is not "self evident" ...except to the extent to which individual believers choose to deceive themselves about evidence....each believer choosing the depth of self their own deception.

    Evangelicals assert the entire bible is inerrant....they are "totally" deceived.
    Many of the Christian faith cannot accept all the fables hence they wish only to deceive themselves in part.
    Deceived in whole or in part matters not it is still deception....Their god is invisible ....because he/she/it does not exist.

  106. William Weston

    Minimalist do not believe that there exists any evidence for David & Solomon. You may believe that, but "Minimalists" DO NOT.
    Finkelstein is more of a "Middlist" than Minimalist.

  107. Yeung Xiao

    Information dense and dramatic music light, the way a doc should be.

  108. Cool E Beans

    Who wants to know the name of the Beast?

    Using a single sheet of lined paper, write the letters A through Z on the left hand side. Next to each letter (you can put in a dash - or = sign) write the numbers 6, 12, 18, 24, 30 etc. so that A-6, B-12, C-18 through Z.

    Then write the following letters (in alphabetical order) in a column in the middle of the page.

    C E M O P R T U

    Find the values of each letter (C-18, E-30 etc.) and add them to find the total. If done correctly these letters add up to 666. Now unscramble the letters.

    You should find that this Beast can identify you by markings in your hand or in your forehead.

    If you need more explanation, just ask.

  109. oddsrhuge

    I'm at 668...The neighbor of the beast

  110. wald0

    I was under the impression that Nero was "the beast". His name adds up to the correct total, if you use gematria. His nickname was "the beast" as well, I think. Other scholars think it may refer to a latin phrase, Vicarius Filii Dei, meaning Vicar of the Son of God- suggesting the number refers to the papacy, as you may have guessed these are protestant scholars. If you use gematria it does sum up to 666 in roman numerals. Yet more scholars point out the fact that in other versions of the Bible the number isn't even 666 its 616, this number appears in two codecs (Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus, from Paris and ed. Conybaere, 1907 from Armenia). Because these two codecs are known to be among the most trusted biblical sources available to the majority of theologians this theory has gained some traction, but it is still in the minority. The issue is that in the 2nd century AD a historian named Irenaeus confirmed the number to be 666 in the original text, he also specifically pointed out several scribal errors that happened during translation that may have led to the 616 version in the above codecs.
    As for my personal opinion, I feel it refers to Domitian. I think John of Patmos wanted to criticize Domitians rule but was afraid to make direct refrence to him, so he used a symbol. I think he used Nero's symbol specifically in order to bring about a direct contrast between the two rulers who were said to have very similar and brutal techniques. This is the opinion held by the majority of western scholars today, due to Irenaeus' writings during the 2nd century AD. Irenaeus (150-202 AD) specifically says that he recieved his information from people that knew John of Patmos personally, and another historian, Eusebius of Caesarea, says that Domitian started the persecution of Jews and Christians spoke of in the book.

  111. robertallen1

    While I couldn't care less about this garbage, let me bring to your attention that the phrase "vicarius filius dei" as used in this context means something like either substitute son of god or other son of god, cf vicarious, cf Latin vicis, in turn.

  112. Irishkev

    Sorry Waldo but carbon dating is not very accurate. Maybe you need to do some brushing up.

  113. robertallen1

    What is "very accurate?" You're obviously the one who needs brushing up. Try starting with the fine article in Wikipedia.

  114. Epicurus

    what do you mean Kev? my field of study uses radiometric dating techniques ALL THE TIME. they are extremely accurate. sometimes there will be problems with the sample which will give back the wrong date but when that happens we know it happens and we catch it.

    nothing is ever dated using just one method. there are numerous methods that are all employed and they all converge on the same date.

  115. Top_Quark

    surely the overall balance of evidence is strongly in favour of the minimalists….. opinion is divided (not surprisingly) over whether Ezra was a historical figure. Josephus recognizes Ezra although placing him a generation earlier than the accepted biblical tradition of c.480-440 BCE. Then there are some arguing that he could be a later invention due to many inconsistencies. What matters is that the Babylonian exile played a huge role not only on biblical text but also on Judaism, Jewish culture and the Hebrew script. The bible continued to be written and edited well into Hellenistic times.

  116. Top_Quark

    The minimalists’ argument also suggests that the creation of the modern Zionist state in Israel on the basis of the Bible (Jews’ divine right to return to their promised land and all related propaganda) is not justified if the biblical stories were simply made up. Even Finkelstein, who perceives a political will at work behind the biblical texts, has received a lot of criticism in Israel for his work from conservative elements in the society that are aware of what it means for the Biblical underpinnings of Zionism.

  117. Top_Quark

    Yes agreed, minimalists believe David & Solomon and the united monarchy period to be fictitious. Finkelstein disagrees with minimalists only on a few points, David’s historicity being one of them.

  118. robertallen1

    Thanks for the response. I understand that many consider Josephus either unreliable or apocryphal.

  119. sws420

    How true, but stranger things have happened.

  120. biblelover

    I know Jesus(God) exits because the Holy Spirit came to me at our last Bible study and it was not from this world and it was better than any drug I ever took.Futhurmore the miracles that happened to me or beyond belief.No benny Hinn about it .Its too bad there is so many false teachers out there giving Jesus a bad name.And religions,Spiritallity is God given ,Religion is manmade.thanks for your response.

  121. biblelover

    I know that God(Jesus)exits because of happened to me at my last Biblestudy.It was better than any drug (which I stopped)Glory to God.The Holy Spirit came to me plus the miracles in my life are well documented by others including doctors,No Binny Hinn about it . Too bad there is false teachers out there giving Jesus a bad name.Spirituality Is God given and religion is man-made usually its more of a business.They will have to explain that on judgement day.

  122. robertallen1

    No, you don't know this; you can't know this, just as you can't know the opposite. Also, clean up your writing.

  123. LuLu

    The 666 refers to the 6th vile, the 6th trump and the 6th seal in the book of Revelations. That's when the anti-christ (aka the beast, death, serpent and a bunch of other names) comes pretending to be Jesus and performing fake miracles and supernatural wonders that fools a lot of the world into praying to him and following him. The true Jesus Christ comes in on the 7th trump 7th seal and the 7th vile and kicks butt and takes names !!! So don't trust the first one he's a fake !!! I sure do love my God, he's so good to me !!! :)

  124. biblelover

    Thanks,I was in a hurry because I"m so excited.I"m excited because I know whats coming on this world shortly.If I don"t know then what about what we witnessed at our Biblestudy.You would have to be there but I have a feeling you would"nt be there,lest you know the truth that you might be saved.Saved from what-Gods wrath because we were born into a sin nature due to the fall of Adam and eve.And Jesus gives us a way out and people reject.thats a choice they make and ther is a consequence.

  125. robertallen1

    How moronic!

  126. biblelover

    Thanks.It sounds like you know the truth.Good for you.God is good that surely nothing happens before he lets his servants ,the prophets and saints know in advance.

  127. robertallen1

    Get off it! You don't know--and nobody does either.

    As for Jesus giving you a way out, please take it and give us all some relief.

  128. LuLu

    Just because you have no faith in anything is no reason to knock the people who do have faith. We have every right to voice our opinion just as you have your right to voice yours, sir. I have absolutely no doubt that the Bible is a personal letter to all those who want to know the truth and what is in store for all the world. You have to read it verse for verse and word for word. You also need to refer back to the original manuscripts. There has been a lot of "mistakes" made by man in translating some by accident and some are on purpose. The Companion Bible is helpful in learning what the Bible truly says. In the end you'll find out who was right and who was wrong. Then you'll realize you, sir, were the m****, not me !!!

  129. Epicurus

    people like you and lulu scare and worry me.

  130. biblelover

    The truth is extreme .too be moderate is to compromise.For the word of God is living and powerful,sharper than any two edged sword,piercing even to the division of soul and of joints and marrow.and is a discerner of the thoughts of the heart.

  131. Irishkev

    Hi Ep, the sample will be a certain age, it cannot "give back the wrong date". Therefore the inaccuracy lies with the method. You say that numerous methods are employed, do they all converge on the same date, or do they deliver up a probable range? I swear, when you contradict some "scientists" their reaction is almost religious in it's conceit and blind faith. As far as I remember Carbon 14 dating allows for a fairly wide margin +/-. This is because atmospheric and environmental levels of C14 are unknown for the time the sample was formed and in the case of organic samples dietary factors come into play. And Waldo (the scientist) goes on in his next comment to talk about numerology. Hmm, not very scientific. Having said this, it is about 15yrs since I studied and worked in the field of science and I am open to correction.

  132. Irishkev

    Hi rob, I think that Wiki article backs up my contention nicely. Maybe if you read the whole thing perhaps?

  133. Irishkev

    Cool, tell him I want my lawnmower back.

  134. Irishkev

    Well Rob, by "very accurate", I mean better than a guesstimate.

  135. robertallen1

    You're beyond pathetic and ignorant.

  136. robertallen1

    You're only contention is that radiometric dating is not "very accurate," which is meaningless. Try pinpointing.

    Secondly , I have read the whole thing and third, my name is Robert.

    Write back when you have something intelligent and thoughtful to offer.

  137. robertallen1

    1. Do you know anything about translation?

    2. Do you know anything about the history of the Bible and the periods in which it was written?

    3. Did it ever occur to you that it is impossible to read and not interpret?

    4. How do you know how much man may decipher with time?

    5. How do you know that eople have been misled?

    In short, can you intellectually justify anything you have posted?

  138. His Forever

    Epicurus: Glad some other Christians are posting; disappointed that they do seem a bit . . . . reactionary. Bummer, eah?

  139. Achems_Razor

    Charles, reactionary? they remind me of the suicide bombers, the only thing missing are the 27 virgins thing, Eh?

    And yes they are scary! Would they blow themselves up for their Christ? you betcha!

    When is all you guyses "Rapture" coming, way past due!

  140. His Forever

    Top_Quark: There's very little evidence that Alexander the Great ever lived either. More evidence for Jesus exists in history, than Alexander the Great.

    The Jews kept exceedingly meticulous records, both oral and written. If even a one letter mistake was found in a scroll, it was burned. It's naive at best, and outwardly Christian-Jewish hostility at worse to be such a "minimalist". Didn't they say that Jericho didn't exist until they found it (even with the walls collapsed) just as it was recorded in the Bible? Also I read that until recently, there was no evidence for an entire people group mentioned in the Bible (whom everyone said must be an error in the Bible) until it was later found to be true.

    If you go to Africa, oral traditional stories can be told word for word generation after generation flawlessly. It's only in modern times do individuals such as yourself find reason to "minimalize" the records of such events in the Bible. When you set aside the written record, and do your own research, you can draw any conclusion you want about whatever you find (or don't find). Isn't that true? And most archaeologist don't get a name for themselves for say, "Oh, yes, The Bible is exceedingly accurate!" Rather, if you want to be "respected" and "famous" you throw out all tradition entirely and staunchly rest on the laurels of your disbelieving intellect. Not too hard to understand why some choose to be "minimalists" even against evidence to the contrary.

    As far as King David is concerned, the Jews call themselves the Sons of David. To believe they named themselves after a mayor of town is just not logical. He was most likely as great as they say he was. In fact, the Bible records everyone of his failures, including his sins and the lands he failed to fully conquer. You don't make myths into real people with real flaws and real failings, but you do if the account is historically accurate.

    As far as the theory of King Josiah rewriting everything, which minimalist is suggesting this from what evidence? Certainly not from the Bible itself as it records Josiah's failure as well (and death at a young age). Josiah brought revival, not revision to Israel. You're an atheistic unbeliever, so of course if you have the choice between illogical minimalist presupposition or logical interpretation of the events as stated in the texts themselves, of course you'll chose to think of God's word as a combination of myth and borrowed stories. Exactly how much archaeological proof is need to change your mind?

  141. robertallen1

    Let them blow themselves (and no one else) up for all I care!

    What galls me is when they try to bring their ignorant garbage into the school system.

  142. His Forever

    Mr. Razor: No, I hardly think they would blow themselves up for Christ, as you put it. That's rediculous! That's a Muslim thing, not a Christian thing. I don't find Lulu and Biblelover scary at all, but certainly not ENTIRELY Biblically accurate, sadly. But, I do find Islamists very scary. Let's not mix the two.

    As far as the Rapture . . . . yes, I wish it was yesterday!

  143. robertallen1

    1. You start off with a lie. There is no doubt that Alexander the Great lived, for we have considerable evidence of his existence and deeds (see the detailed article in Wikipedia about him). On the other hand, we have very little contemporary evidence about the existence of a person known in modern times as Jesus Christ (a quotation from lucian, writing about a hundred years after the crucifiction, dismisses the proceedding as a relatively minor event.) SO YOU ARE WRONG!

    2. Until the Old Testament was codified during the time of Ezra (3rd century B.C.), it went through many different versions, all this borne out by the differing scrolls of the Old Testament that have been preserved. In addition, the literacy rate in Biblical times was much lower than it is now and most of the scribes were not well-educated, for copying occupied a low rank on the vocational totem pole. This concept of meticulous copying which you cling to and try to foist off is historically inaccurate and basically absurd--copying of what? SO YOU ARE WRONG!

    3. You have shamefully misstated the documentary with respect to Jericho and the archaeological evidence shows that YOU ARE WRONG!

    4. What do you mean by "entire group." If you are referring to the exodus of the Jews from Egypt, the archaeological and contemporary written evidence have made it quite clear that YOU ARE WRONG.

    5. How do you know that in Africa oral stories have been handed down flawlessly from generation to generation? Have you compared the "original" version of a story to its present incarnation? If so, how were you able to do this? Have you ever taken part in the old experiment of telling something to someone who then passes it on to someone else who then passes it on to someone else, etc. In the end, the original statement has become completely distorted. SO, ONCE AGAIN, YOU ARE WRONG.

    6. "When you set aside the written record, and do your own research, you can draw any conclusion you want about whatever you find (or don't find). Isn't that true?" No, it's not!!! First of all, what makes you assume that the Bible is an accurate written record? Second, hard evidence is a perfectly good reason for setting aside the so-called written record. There is no "evidence to the contrary." SO YOU ARE WRONG.

    7. You have mischaracterized the documentary to stand for the proposition that King David was not respected or well-known in his lifetime. Accuracy eludes you. The documentary merely states that the hard archaeological evidence shows that his kingdom and Solomon's were not anywhere as vast as what is described in the Old Testament. SO YOU ARE WRONG AND, WHAT'S MORE, MISLEADING!

    8. You have mischaracterized the documentary to stand for the proposition that Josiah rewrote everything when it posited nothing of the sort. SO, ONCE AGAIN, YOU ARE WRONG AND, WHAT'S MORE, MISLEADING!

    9. Had you read about its history, you would know that the Bible is not a contemporary written record or even "the divine word" of some nebulous god. It is simply the secular word of man couched in the language and concepts of the times in which it was written.

    10. As for archaeological proof, this documentary has offered plenty while you've offered only the proverbial written record of the Bible, which is to say none.

    Posts as fundamentally ignorant and misleading as yours deserve nothing but contempt and I, for one, resent your attempted snow job.

  144. Achems_Razor


    Hell's bells, I have just read @robertallen1: great rebuttal to you, a masterpiece, I think.

    Now it is up to you to rebuttal his rebuttal, I think for this you really have to delve into the books, do your homework, am waiting with eager anticipation, good luck!

  145. robertallen1

    Perhaps this indicates a fundamental flaw in my nature, but I appreciate the approval of my peers. Thank you.

  146. biblelover

    Lets ask the sea(beast)what her mark is? Of course the Catholic church claims that the change(Sabbath to Sunday)was her act,and the act as a MARK of her ecclesiastical authority.Sunday is our Mark of authority...the church is above the Bible,and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact-Catholic Record of London,Ontario Sept 1 1923.The land beast (USA)will enforce this Mark by law in the near future.Check Sunday law in America on youtube.The church is not above the bible,and does this mean if you are going to church on Sunday you have the mark.No,until it is enforced and we can"t buy or sell will be the test.Rev.22v14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,that they may enter through the gates into the city.

  147. biblelover

    Tell me what is Biblically accurate since you seem to know?

  148. Epicurus


  149. Epicurus

    oh boy, and its taking everything in me not to go off.

    i really am in no mood to worry that everytime i check on here im going to have some semi crazy rant from a religious person....restraint, its a virtue.

  150. Epicurus

    realizing that it is a book of fairy tales is a good start.

  151. Samuel Morrissey

    The bible unearthed? My advice would be to bury it again, preferably under some nuclear waste. Failing that, put it on the shelf in its proper place next to 'Lord of the Rings' - both are largely fantasies, and both contain valuable moral lessons.

  152. robertallen1

    Nicely put.

  153. Guest

    Don't covet your neighbours preciousss ;)

  154. biblelover

    No reply

  155. Epicurus

    well not giving a reply would have been a better "no reply"....

    but why no reply? you mean you believe that the world was flooded and a drunk man collected two of every species on the planet then built a boat large enough to fit them all on it then afterwards had sex with his family in order to repopulate the earth to 7 billion different races?

    or is is the story about the woman who was made out of a rib, being tricked by a talking snake to eat a magical fruit?

    or is it the story about the jewish guy who claimed to be born of a virgin (we are just going to take their word for it) being crucified and coming back to life? oh ya all those stories are absolutely could i be so silly???

    ever sat down and wonder why you dont believe other religions and dismiss them as stories but you accept the stories in yours as true??

  156. Top_Quark

    @C_and_N, I must admit that I couldn’t have been as damning as roberallen1 even if I had wanted to. You started with the old Jesus vs Alexander analogy which many Christian fundamentalists refer to. First you have to compare apples to apples. Alexander wasn’t depicted in history as a messiah or a god or son of god but a soldier, military leader/conqueror who left many historical and cultural traces of his military conquests in far away regions. The correct analogy would be Jesus and somebody like Krishna, Osiris, Mithras, Dionysus, or even Abraham & Moses (even though these 2 were not worshipped).

    You assumed that I was an atheist on the basis that I had implied that maximalism was bunk and minimalism has far more evidence in its favour. The fact is that in the 21st century maximalist scholars or archaeologists are not taken seriously anymore not because the whole world is turning anti-Christ but because there is overwhelming evidence that debunks biblical stories not only from an archaeological perspective but from a host of scientific disciplines including cosmology, geology, paleontology, biology, anthropology etc. Apart from some well-funded fundamentalist biblical archaeologists, all biblical scholars/archaeologists are now minimalists.

    Therefore the bible is far from being a ‘written record’ as you claim. It has got at least some things right such as names of ancient towns and people. The ‘entire group of people’ that you mention could be Hittites who went undiscovered until the early 20th century. But the Bible mentions Hittites as a small Canaanite tribe living in the hills when in fact they lived far to the north in modern-day Turkey and had a strong empire that rivaled Egypt and Assyria. So, it is still disputed whether the biblical Hittites were the Hittites of Hattusa or yet another case of biblical anachronism (like so many other inconsistencies that are shown in this documentary).

    Archaeology offers both confirmation of parts of the biblical record and also poses challenges to the naive interpretations made by some. Careful examination of the evidence demonstrates that the historical accuracy of the first part of the Old Testament is greatest during the reign of Josiah and the accuracy diminishes the further backwards one proceeds from this date. This seems to confirm that a major redaction of the texts seems to have occurred at about that date.

  157. biblelover

    `Yes Yes Yes except Noah was"nt drunk .What other religions,the manmade ones.I believe the bible and live by the ten commandments and faith in Jesus,the mighty lamb of God.

  158. robertallen1

    Maybe he wasn't drunk during, but he sure got drunk afterwards, ACCORDING TO YOUR BIBLE!

    What you believe and live by, however gullible, ignorant, short-sighted and antedeluvian, is your business. It doesn't have to be the truth or, in your case, anything approaching it.

  159. robertallen1

    You're giving me competition. Keep up the good work.

  160. reasonlogic

    "and it was not from this world and it was better than any drug I ever took."

    It's most likely that because you have used drugs in the past that you can now hallucinate to the degree that you feel to have been visited by a spirit.

  161. robertallen1

    Hire the handicapped. They don't do much, but they're sure fun to watch! By the same token, listen to the little bible people, for although they say nothing of value, they're sure fun to listen to.

  162. robertallen1

    Oh, so you take drugs? In that case, why should I believe anything you write?

  163. Achems_Razor

    There is such a thing as religious addiction, religion is a mind disease, a mental disorder, for me it is similar to mad cow disease.

    "The god of the old testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction, jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

    Richard Dawkins, "The God Delusion

  164. Elmo Putz

    This site proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that none are more religiously zealous than Atheists!

  165. robertallen1

    How dare you downgrade atheism to the level of religion. The intelligent atheists, such as Richard Dawkins, merely indicate that so far, nothing has caused them to believe in a supreme being. They do not state that none exists or, like the theists, make assertions that they can't back up

  166. biblelover

    What I dont understand is how you know the bible yourself yet refuse to believe that it is The living Word a live document,the words are alive my friend.

  167. biblelover

    I used to.God delivered me from it.I stopped methodone for over two years now,Praise the KING of heaven.

  168. biblelover

    Are you a demon.Would you tell me the truth if you were.

  169. His Forever

    Epic; You aren't showing much restraint, actually. You rarely pull any punches with your highly atheistic views or jabs at religious posters. Most of the comments from people here are secularistic at best, which I myself find very unpleasant. Bu yes, you're right . . . "restraint, it's a virtue".

  170. robertallen1

    Obviously, the drugs haven't worn off.

  171. robertallen1

    It's the drugs responding?

  172. biblelover

    What happened to you.Dont let them get to you.Remember what Jesus said if they hate you it is because they hated me first.I dont where in scripture that is but maybe you do.

  173. Achems_Razor


    Pulled up the Jesus police site, looks interesting, says 20 common errors about Christ, for one thing, says there was no such person named as Jesus Christ. Will look at the site in more detail later.

  174. over the edge

    hey guys, i think you are being too hard on biblelover i mean the bible is full of useful information. as he/she mentions the 10 commandments well the first three are about worshiping god i know but he has a confidence problem so that is understandable, the rest are great i mean who hasn't wanted to covet his neighbors donkey ? and i am sure the rest weren't illegal or immoral before the commandments. also i can't count the number of times i needed a guide as to how to treat my slaves and what if i beat one so bad they die. " However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 "or " When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 " and for the new testament fans "47 "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked. ." (Luke 12:47-48"and this is just a taste of the great information contained in the bible. if you need to know when it is ok to rape,or why you hate homosexuals or just want to kill foreigners all the while getting the blessing of god this book is for you

  175. His Forever

    Biblelover: "Biblically accurate" is subjective. I'm sure you think your views are accurate and well thought out too. I'm guessing. I just don't fully agree with some of your thoughts, that's all. You sound a bit looney when you put everything including the kitchen sink into one paragraph. Focus your efforts, and be calm in your replies.

    The good news, I just read that 7th Day Adventists (of which you sound like) have a 10 year longer average lifespan than others.


  176. biblelover

    OT God is the same God as the NT God.You are either brave or stupid to mock God.

  177. Achems_Razor

    The words in your bibles are not alive, the people who wrote the words are long dead!

  178. His Forever

    Robert: Let me get back to you. I have no access to my university's library, etc. in Asia, but I can see what I can find on the Internet.

  179. His Forever

    Razor: I only wish I was still in the U.S. so I could access my university's libraries, professors,and archeolgists. Our dean got one of his many degrees in such, but he's probably retired now anyway.

  180. Achems_Razor


    Why is it when most religee's don't know what else to say they use ad hominem attacks.

    Brave you say? against what? your personal invisible gods, they are only in your mind!

    And now you call me stupid, again for what? because I do not believe in your invisible gods that are only in your mind!

    And yes, since you asked for it, I do mock you and your invisible gods that are only in your mind! What are you going to do about it?

  181. robertallen1

    Maybe he'll pray for you.

  182. biblelover

    I not going to do anything.Jesus tells me to love my neighbor and my enemy.Thats what I do.

  183. robertallen1

    Yes, in the Greek style.

  184. Achems_Razor


    Pray for me? I hope not, how do I know that the biblelover is not commanding the legions of hell and purgatory, where the vile rotting creatures of the un-dead are waiting to be summoned out from their pits of everlasting prisons of torture to wreck havoc on the pure souls such as I.

    You know, Exorcists do not come cheap!

  185. robertallen1

    Yeah, I hear they spent millions on the movie and its sequels, not to mention the advertising.

  186. Achems_Razor

    Okay, now you have piqued my curiosity, what movie?

  187. biblelover

    There is no rapture.There is only one 2nd coming not two.Another false teaching to deceive the elect.

  188. robertallen1

    The Exorcist, of course.

  189. robertallen1

    How do you know this? And don't tell me because it's in the Bible because you know nothing about the Bible as well.

  190. Epicurus

    do you observe the sabbath? do you not lie? or covet?

    lol well all those stories are make believe. grow up.

  191. Epicurus

    lol really? compare the comments of the atheists and theists...

  192. Epicurus

    do you have any ideas how many comments i see a day that i would love to refute or correct?...and enough are yours. but i let it slide. my views arent atheistic either. they are objective and empirical. lol

  193. Epicurus

    christianity is a man made story. it is a cult from judaism, which is a cult of zoroastrianism.

    how old do you think the planet is? and how did people get to be all different colours from noahs incest family?

  194. robertallen1


    I'm just curious. Do you agree with Deuteronomy 25:11-12:

    "If men strive together, one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets:

    "Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her."

  195. robertallen1

    I'll lay you shekels to drachmas that biblelover's never heard of insolation.

    By the way, are you British or British-educated?

  196. biblelover

    Because if there was a rapture that would make three comings?I know that the dragon will kill those who refuse his mark.Another inquistion you might say.Then Gods final judgement comes on the earth.Right now we see the dragons wrath because his time is short.Gods wrath will be unreal.Not only that I believe that this is the generation(fig tree) that sees it .Some won"t taste death.some will taste the second death,the lake of fire.Hell was not made for people it was made for Satan and his demons.Unfortunely only a remant will be saved.Remember Noah and his family,not many saved.As in Noahs day as is now.

  197. biblelover

    Yes I observe the 7th day sabbath.I do three things.I rest,I read my Bible and I worship the great and awesome God that made heaven and earth and the things of it.I do not lie.I do not covet.There is nothing that I want that someone else has because I"m with what I do have-happiness-something money can"t buy.If I mess up and sin I have a high priest in heaven(Jesus)however these commandments are written on my heart.

  198. biblelover

    I dont know.I dont have all the answers.Hardly,the more I know the more I dont know you might say.

  199. biblelover

    Jesus is not dead.He sits at the right hand of the Father.The Bibles words are alive.Of course if you dont have the Holy Spirit to help you understand then its a dead book.As Isaiah the prophet wrote they have eyes to see,but they can't perceive.Ears to hear yet understand not.

  200. biblelover

    There is no such thing as purgatory.Who told you that.There are pedophille priests who teach this sort of nonsense.

  201. Epicurus

    you are lying right now.

    what i think happened is you used religion to overcome a hardship in your life and now you cling to it superstitiously because you attribute religion to your overcoming of that hardship.


  202. Epicurus

    actually I am Canadian. Commonwealth country, not too different.

  203. biblelover

    No I am not lying-about what.Besides I dont belong to any religion.I have a relation ship with Jesus.All mainstream religions are nothing more than businesses.

  204. biblelover

    No I"m not-about what.Besides I dont belong to a religion.Religion is a manmade business.What I have is happiness because Jesus makes me happy.

  205. Dafunkdoc

    in regards to:

    and how did people get to be all different colours from noahs incest family?

    That's easy: The first 'people' only had to be ONE color. Their genes held all the rest 'in reserve' as 'recessive'.

  206. His Forever

    Epic: I rarely agree with your posts either. I only wish I could be 20 years younger and refocus my life into a more productive individual in a scientific and/or medical field such as biology, archaeology, or something of the such. But, your views are very biased, Epic. Rarely are they objective and empirical. This is the age when atheism is very much vogue, and it's just difficult for someone like me that is not specifically trained in your field to refute your precise interpretations of what you view to be "unrefutable" facts. Surely some can, but it's more diffcult for me.

  207. His Forever

    Razor: Most christians are just ordinary people; only a few are highly educated in certain scientific fields, and those that are have often learned to keep their opinion to themselves or risk being drummed out of their profession.

  208. His Forever

    Razor: I'd really disagree with that. The ones that penned the Bible are still very much living. I dare say that eventually both you and I will get to meet them on one way or another. Jesus said that the righteous of the past (such as the Queen of sheba that listened to the Wisdome of Solomon) would stand in judgment againt a generation hundreds of years later. I suspect we'll get to see everyone's judgment---yours and mine alike---when the time comes.

  209. LuLu

    Well I'm glad I don't scare you, sir. But may I ask where in my posting did you find any inaccuracies? I also would like to point out to you that the Bible does not even use the word "rapture" let alone say that there is such a thing. The "rapture" theory is just that a "theory". It was put there to deceive people. After all the word "Revelation" means to make known or to reveal. Yet most preachers will tell you that you don't need to read Revelations because you won't be here when it happens, that you'll be "Raptured" away. If people are taken away before the 7th trump, 7th vile and the 7th seal, it isn't Jesus' doing. So you may want to rethink that decision, that is if you do believe in such a lie.

    To you, robertallen1, "ignorant garbage" , really? Every time I read your posts they are full of hate? Are you so unhappy in your life here on earth and apparently having no future spiritual life if you keep your mindset the way it is, that you feel you must keep bad mouthing anyone who differs from your opinion on this matter? Does it make you feel superior? Because it only shows how very little you truly know on this subject. After all this is a documentary about the Bible. Why wouldn't this be an appropriate place for us to try and plant a few seeds of wisdom and perhaps save a soul or two in the process? It's what God wants us to do. I'm not forcing you or apparently your children to learn "ignorant garbage" in schools. But I think they should be taught that Darwin's theory is just that, a"theory" as is most scientist's answers to the origin of life. They are simply hypothesis or in layman's terms a wild guess. Maybe you would be happier if you go make comments on some of the documentaries about Darwin's theories. I know it wouldn't hurt my feelings any if you were to go somewhere else to spout your hatred for Christians. And by Christians, I mean the ones who know and follow the true teachings, not the Sunday seat warmers or the multi-billion dollar evangelist trying to get yet another yacht by making you pay for a prayer.

    Here's a fact that's really going to get your undies in a bunch, robertallen1, True Christianity is not a Religion, it's a Reality, sir. Oh no now I really have you steaming? Huh?

    Yipper Dippers, I sure do love my life and all my great blessings given to me by my God. I wish everybody could feel this good about their life. It's great to be a Happy Hillbilly !!!

  210. Qbmc Qman

    Is this a Seventh Day Adventist website? SDA Video?

  211. LuLu

    That is the first time I've seen you say something truthful, sir. You are most definitely " fundamentally flawed". Whoops you stepped right into that one !!

  212. LuLu

    Once again if ya'll don't know the Bible or have read it why are you even commenting on it? When Noah collected Species that would have included mankind. After all isn't mankind a species? Not to mention that perhaps only the area for which Noah lived was flooded. Not the whole world. That he only had to save the species that were going to be affected by the enormous flood. His family were not the only humans on the boat. So there for it was not only his family who repopulated the earth. Though through Noah's bloodline Jesus Christ would be born.

    Eve was not made by a rib of Adam. That is a mistranslation. She was created using the same type of DNA as Adam. She was tricked by Satan, The Serpent is just one of the many names he goes by. The forbidden fruit was not an apple, it was a metaphor used for sex. She was "seduced" by Satan.

    Here's another shocker in Ezekeal it tells you that God and his entourage came to earth in a highly polished bronze ship. That's right, basically a UFO. So, is it not possible that a woman such as Mary could not have been inseminated with God's seed so that Jesus would be born? I mean do women not get artificially inseminated today? Could you not impregnate a virgin the same way ? Why is it hard to believe that God could not bring a person back to life? Has there not been many documented cases of doctors bringing people back to life after they were "declared" dead. God has a lot better resources than any doctor here on earth.

    It's true, no one earthly being has all the answers. God is the only one who knows all the answers. The Bible was written to show you the way to an Eternal Spiritual Life after we leave our flesh bodies. It tells you how to find Salvation. It tells you how the world will end as we know it. The earth will not be destroyed as some try to make you think. This is where God is going to make His Heaven. He's only going to "clean house" per say before he does. Those who took heed and read the Bible and truly believed in it and followed the commandments and repented for their sins and short comings(because no man is perfect) will be saved and live a fantastic spiritual life after this one on earth.

    The good news for ya'll , is there is still time to change your minds. Although this is the final generation. Revelation has began and we are presently in the 5th stage so to speak. But the way they are pushing the New World Order and trying to thin the herd (as in chemtrails, H.A.A.R.P., poisoning our food with genetically engineered crops and using every kind of toxic chemical ever produced to do everything from brushing your teeth to cleaning your rug to making baby bottles with dangerous plastics that leak into your child's formula and on and on) time is running short, so I wouldn't wait too long.

    If anyone would like to learn what the Bible says they should watch Shepherd's Chapel with Pastor Arnold Murray. He truly is a great teacher of the letter(Bible) God wrote to us.

    All I'm saying is don't knock it till you've tried it. If you don't want to try it then fine. That's why we were put here on earth in the first place, to make the decision whether you love God and want to take part in His Heaven or the other choice. I can't judge you, nor do I want to. God is the one who will judge you. Just quit pickin on the people who do trust in God. If for no other reason, it is just plain rude.

    I would like to point out that I'm not the best of teachers as I'm still learning myself. I'm only passing on what I have learned so far. If you want a more thorough explanation I suggest you watch Shepherd's Chapel or perhaps Tomorrow's World and request the free, yes free cds and booklets they offer. If someone tries to get money from you then most likely they are not genuine. God does not need nor does he like beggars. He provides quite nicely for those who trust in Him.

    Now then if you will excuse me, it's time for Shepherd's Chapel. As fun as it is to spread the word, it's even better to listen and learn it.

    I wish you all a great day ! If nothing else having God in your heart makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside ! Isn't life great, guys? !!! Yes sirree, bob, it surely is !

  213. LuLu

    Well put, sir.

  214. LuLu

    Why do you assume that they "Get to me" ? I believe you are familiar with the term "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, Neither cast ye your pearls before swine, Lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." This is a perfect example of what that means.

    I realize to be a true Christian won't win you a popularity contest. But that being said. If we were all just talking about life in general, I would make more friends on here than some would think. I happen to be quite a likable person. If ya'll don't believe me, just ask any one of my other personalities !!! :)

    It's just religion can bring out the best in some and the worst in others.

    Oh well that's life. Even God points out time and again not to force your beliefs on others. If it's meant to be it will be. It is totally up to them. I just like trying to point out what I have learned about the Bible as compared to what they have been taught.

    Debates are quite fun and at times maybe enlightening too.

    Don't let them make you feel bad. They really seem to be quite mean when they answer your posts. I apologize for their actions.I'm sure it's really hard for them to understand if they haven't had the fire lit in their hearts yet. God Speed !!

  215. His Forever

    Lulu: What I was referring to was a post where you mentioned something odd about 666 being the 6th trumpet 6th vial, or something like that. But, if you also don't believe in the Rapture, sadly, I'm sure there's very little we'd agree upon in the Book of Revelation.

    I can't remember when I first posted here, but it's been about 2 or more years (I think) and surely I've not seen anyone's mind change or even bend on one single element of religion here. I highly suspect your "hillbilly" ways aren't helping the Christian cause here, even though I'm sure you're right in some aspects, but very few.

    I'm starting to feel convicted to "pray more" and "post less" as only God can change the heart.

  216. LuLu

    Your right, sir. At least about some of what you said. The first time I picked up the Bible and opened it up I expected it to say something about Adam and Eve and the World being created but instead it started out by saying all that crap about slaves and stuff. I immediately put it back down and thought what the h_ _ _ _?

    I later found out after learning the truth that there are a lot of things that were added by man and not by the word of God in the Bible. That's where finding someone who can go back to the original manuscripts and can read all the different languages and can correctly translate is so important. But I understand where all of you would have mistrust in the Bible as it is written today. It's had too many cooks changing the recipe to fit their tastes, so to speak, through all these years.

  217. robertallen1

    So you reply in mumbo jumbo. Must be the drugs.

  218. robertallen1

    So, you don't know if you agree. Again, it's the drugs.

  219. robertallen1

    How can you consider yourself an intelligent man when you write this drivel? But maybe you don't consider yourself an intelligent man.

  220. robertallen1

    How do you know this--and don't respond with jibber-jabber, that is if you can help it.

  221. robertallen1

    Oh, I was just wondering because of the way you spelled color in your last post.

  222. robertallen1

    For once, you're right about something. All mainstream religions (and some not so mainstream, such as Scientology) are capitalistic ventures. Only they're not taxed.

  223. Guest

    The under standing of one's perception of spirituality should never be shared, because no one can perceive it the same way. Most people who comment on religious books or on the meaning of life make their comment on the words of someone they read or heard, not on the original thoughts that would have sprouted from reading or feeling it personnaly.
    Nothing can create more opposition than discussing one's view of the whys and hows of fundamental values of life itself, even within people of same religion.
    We can argue physical reality because in the end it can be proven or disproven, not so with the intangible....we take it to death and do not take it back from death.

  224. His Forever

    Lulu: You are thoroughly embarrassing me as a fellow Christian. I'd suggest less Shepherd's Chapel if that is where you're getting all this theological tripe from. All the horrendous misinterpretations of Scripture make the precious bare truth of the Gospel difficult for even me to swallow, and I'm a true blue believer to the core!

    Ahhh, how exhaspirating! I got a minor in Biblical languages from my university. I'm so sad I'm deprived of my scholarly books here in Asia, but I'm 100% sure "rib" is translated correctly and the temptation of Eve wasn't sexual; it was an obedience/disobedience issue ONLY.

    If you want to know what the Bible says, just read it yourself. You don't need somone to tell you what it means 98% of the time.

    Glad you feel warm and fuzzy inside. Peace to you.

    Charles B.

  225. LuLu

    I understand. We will have to just agree to disagree. I tell you what, I'll pray for you and your interpretation of Revelation and you do the same for me. That way which ever of us is right, we'll have the other one's back. :) It doesn't matter if my Hillbilly ways rubs people the wrong way. Their big city ways does the same to me. That's just because of the difference in our upbringings. If the world all got along then these forums would be brutally boring instead of just brutal, don't you think? But I do respect the fact that your trying to plant a seed or two whether you realize it or not. No one can make them grow but God. Religion is always going to be an invitation to arguments. That is just a fact of life.

    You seem to be quite a nice fellow, sir. I wish you a good day !!

  226. Achems_Razor

    Az, Everything is always shared, basically even us humans have a hive/herd mentality, we mostly work together which includes our minds to achieve the goals that we envision of collectively, there is no other way, even Einstein had help with his envisioning of E=M C ^2.

    And even quantum M suggests that we form reality by collectively looking, and forming.

    Everything that us humans talk, envision, and know about stems from the fact that it was first taught to us in one form or another, from the first instigation of us forming the words mommy and daddy.

    Physical reality cannot be proven or unproven, unless you know and can prove what consciousness is, to pinpoint it.

  227. robertallen1

    In science, a theory does not mean a conjecture. It means a conclusion based upon the preponderance of the evidence, e.g., the theory of gravity, the theory of interplanetary motion, the theory of evolution. Secondly, evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life (abiogenesis), but rather with life's biological workings. In short, Darwin's theorty is not conjecture, it's fact and if you don't believe it, try reading something other than a work written over 2,000 years ago or perhaps visiting a museum--but I'm sure I ask too much from someone with your mindset. Statements, such as yours anent Darwin, almost always come from little ignorant bible people of which you are obviously one.

    And speaking of the Bible, I'll bet you know as much about its history as you do about biology and evolution.

    You seem to believe (for you don't think) you have said something earthshaking by describing Christianity as a reality. So what? So are vomiting and defecation.

    Your ignorance and your inability and lack of desire to expand your intellectual horizons make you the contemptible peasant you are and the -last person capable of planting the seeds of wisdom in anyone.

    Yippers Dippers--how puerile. Yes, I am superior to you, for I am better educated, more well read and do not go on about subjects of which I know nothing.

    But you are right about something. I hate you and those like you, who, by propagating their ignorant garbage, endeavor to keep people as much in the dark as they are.

  228. Achems_Razor


    "We'll have the other ones back"?? You said to Charles?? At least you admitted it, most religee's are nothing but pious "Pascals Wager" type.

  229. LuLu

    Charles,I'm sorry if what I believe is the truth embarrasses you. Just because I interpret the Bible differently shouldn't make you so upset. I am not going to try and change your way of thinking nor am I going to belittle you as you have chose to do to me, sir. Just because you have a degree in this, that, or the other, does not give you the right to be mean. As I said we just have to agree to disagree. You yourself said "I've not seen anyone's mind change or even bend on one single element of religion here". Clearly you were including yourself in that sentence.
    Perhaps if you would have majored instead of minored in Biblical language you would have understood it better? Oh, sorry that was mean. But then again without your scholarly books how can you be 100% sure?
    Oh well to each his own. The only thing anyone can be sure of is that time will tell who was right and who was wrong.
    Take care. :)

  230. His Forever

    Lulu: Wow, now that was well-said. I'm a hillbilly too, actually. I'll be buried in Booneville, Arkansas one day where my family is from, but my soul's destination is the New Jerusalem eventually. I'm sure we'd get along quite well in person. Nearly everyone likes me in person, I've been told.

    If you want very good Bible study, try the Dake Annotated Reference Bible. They have a website too. Exceedingly brilliant; I've read Dake's works extensively and I can find nearly zero theological errors (my opinion) in his works. Honestly. I wish more were as brilliant as he in the Christian ranks. And yes, I'll pray tonight, but not for God to change your mind--that's not necessary. No two Christians on earth understand EXACTLY the same things in the exact same way. God's not looking for cookie-cutter Christians; only the truly sincere and pure of heart.

    Peace to you,

    Charles B.

  231. robertallen1

    But in your earlier posts, you were clearly against interpretation--"the cooks." Make up your mind!

  232. robertallen1

    What is a theological error?

  233. LuLu

    Tisk, Tisk
    Really Robertallen, I'm beginning to think you actually do like me as you seem unable to give up on trying to educate me. :) Now come on don't you think it's fun to belittle all us peons on this here forum?? If'in ya'll don't likes my Yipper Dippers then I bet this here talkin just puts a wedgy up your hiney now don't it? It's ok to talk down to me just remember when your nose is so high up there you show all your burgers to the world.
    Now then put that in your pipe and smoke it. Yip, I love my life and being a Hillbilly. By the way if'in evolution was true then why aren't we evolutin right now and right here? I mean if you start out as some monkey man then shouldn't there still be some one still in the transition? When did our bodies say " Hey we're perfect now we can stop evolutin" . Maybe with that highfalutin education you can take time to explain how exactly that works. I mean when does evolution stop evolutin?
    Hugs and Kisses Sweety

  234. LuLu

    It just means I'll help ya'll out and ya'll do the same for me? How hard is that to understand? Sheesh, you'd think as smart as ya are... I'll wager that I'm havin more fun than ya'll at this here ribbin we're doing !! :)

  235. LuLu

    Aw shucks Charles now I really do feel bad about ribbin ya'll on your fancy education. It was meant as a joke, albeit a mean one I admit. Maybe I'm just jealous that I chose to get married at 15 instead of going for a higher education. (No, despite what ya might think I wasn't pregnant, I was just ready start life, so I thought) Doesn't mean I'd do it any different though. All and all I've led a quite happy and fulfilling life.
    But I do apologize if what I said hurt your feelings. I happen to think your very pleasant to converse with, sir.
    Here's peace right back at ya !:)

  236. LuLu

    I'm not against anything exceptin maybe givin up on such a worldly feller as yourself. Ahh only if'in we'd met at a different time and place. Perhaps a forum on kama sutra then maybe you would have enjoyed my company more??? ;)

  237. robertallen1

    At least you asked an intelligent question (although I have encountered it many times before, especially from little Bible people) and I feel that you deserve at least the beginning of an answer.

    What makes you think we're not evolving? It's just that human evolution (I believe that's what you're referring to) goes too slowly for us to perceive it in our lifetimes, like thousands, if not millions, of years. So let me give you a clearer, more observable example.

    Have you ever been bothered by cockroaches? Have you ever noticed that they keep building up immunities to every pesticide you try. This is evolution or adaptability to environment at work. Cockroaches have been around for at least fifty million years (much longer than man) and currently there are 2,500 varieties of them and the number is growing. Now, this is evolution--and successful evolution at that.

    For evidence of an even faster evolutionary rate, look at the tiny creatures which you see through a microscope. Just watch for a few minutes or even a hour or so and you'll observe one form begetting another while the original form remains intact. This is evolution.

    And speaking of microbiology, have you read about the problems medical care providers are having with antibiotic-resistant bacteria? This is the same principle as illustrated by the cockrach.

    In short, evolution never stops. We never reach a "pinnacle of perfection"--and who's to say what perfection is in this respect?

    For more information, Wikipedia has a fine article on evolution. However, I hope this gets you started.

  238. Guest

    Are you faking your accent ?

  239. robertallen1

    I could never enjoy the company of an ignorant hick!

  240. Top_Quark

    yes we are still evolving... damm evolution is such a slow process!
    There's a fine BBC documentary on this site called "Are We Still Evolving?" which tries to answer this question on human evolution.

  241. LuLu

    Why thank you robertallen, that was quite nice of you to explain and believe it or not, I understand your point. Does it mean I'll change my mind about God? Naw, but you make a very good argument I must say, sir.
    By the way why do insist on calling me a "little bible person"? Can't you just simply refer to me as person? After all I'm human just as you are. There's no reason to hate me as a person. I don't hate you or way of thinking. If we all agreed on everything just think how hum drum life would be ! YUK !

    Not to get off subject, but, if ya'll ever have a problem with the antibiotic-resistant bacteria I'll teach ya a bit on a natural cure for it.
    Uh oh, no I didn't just open up that can a worms did I? Oh, well yes I did. We'll just leave that discussion for another time.

    But thanks again for using your valuable time trying to put a smart thought inside my tiny little bible person's brain. I know how hard it is to succeed in such an en devour as that !! It's even harder for me to grasp what with all these here voices crowding up the place ! Hey, ya'll be quiet! Me and robertallen are trying to have a moment.

    Please feel free to educate me whenever you take a liken to now ya hear?

  242. LuLu

    Sir, I would never fake anything and I do mean anything !! (Wink Wink) I truly talk like a Hillbilly. Just because I know proper English don't mean I gots to use it, I always say !!:)

  243. Guest

    Doesn't ring true to me either. And I know a little something about that accent.

  244. LuLu

    Oh robertallen, such mean words. Is this a lover's quarrel? Must you hurt the one you love, sugar lips?

  245. Guest

    Haha,looks like I'm a man again :)

  246. robertallen1

    I've seen it and like it.

  247. Guest

    Can't put my finger on it but as you say the same I'm sticking with my gut instinct. It's just O.T.T :)

  248. LuLu

    Really? Now ya'll are pickin at whether my accent is real or not? I live here in the Missouri Ozarks. Which by the way , folks around these here parts don't think I have an accent. It's all youin's that talk funny, not us. I like my accent. If it don't ring true, then maybe ya'll are hearin the wrong bell ??? But please tell me what ya'll know about accents then we can compare notes together !:)

  249. Guest

    Yeah, I'm Southern and Lulu ain't.

  250. robertallen1

    What's the use trying to educate you? You're an ignoramus and you'll proudly remain one. When you've abrogated your ability to think, you've abrogated your right to be called human and in your case, you deserve the epithet little bible person and I do hate you for everything you are and everything you stand for.

  251. robertallen1

    What's O.T.T.?

  252. LuLu

    Whoops !! Sorry there , mam. My bad. I couldn't tell by your numbers that ya'll was a female !:)

  253. LuLu

    What exactly does O.T.T. mean anyways? Must be some of that there texting talk,huh?

  254. Guest

    When I'm reading I'm hearing the Beverly Hill BIllies, thought I might be exaggerating it a bit, just don't get why you'd write that way-must be hard! Pretty sure Scottish or Yorkshire men wouldn't, not to that extent anyway.

  255. Guest

    Over The Top, a bit too full on :)

  256. LuLu

    Nope I don't consider myself southern either so your right there. But if ya live in the Ozarks, ya might be a redneck. Just cause ya'll talk different don't mean I'll hold it against ya. Why would ya wanna put someone down for the way they talk? I tell you what, seems everybody woke up with a corn cob up their rear and some of ya think it's a pipe cause you keep blowing smoke, well ya know the rest.

  257. Guest

    No worries, I'm getting used to it :)

  258. Guest

    I don't write that way and my Southern credentials are impeccable.

  259. LuLu

    Oh robertallen you have so many cute little nicknames for me. How hard it must be for you to have to share all this love for me in front of the whole world, sugarlips. I'll tell you what I'm proud of, I'm proud of you , that's what I'm proud of. Your ability to set aside our differences and proclaim your hidden lust for little ol' me like you do.
    As always I'm looking forward to your quirky little way of showing your affection for me. Don't ever change my little dumplin !!!

  260. Achems_Razor

    You know there LuLu, you are about as phony as your accent, as most smug cat ate the canary pious (I know something that you don't know) type, that religee's are. All you are doing is making a spectacle of yourself, for shame!

  261. LuLu

    You must be one of those debutant types, what with words such as "credentials" and "impeccable". So how could you know what a Hillbilly sounds like?

  262. Guest

    I know what one doesn't sound like.

  263. LuLu

    Such a sharp tongue on you, Mr. Razor !! I'm sure you can spot a phoney as it takes one to know one. The only shameful thing I see on this forum is the continual hatefulness ya'll like to spout off. Now that is down right pitiful , just pitiful.

  264. LuLu

    I'm sorry could you repeat that sentence in Hillbilly so's I can understand it?

  265. Achems_Razor

    Wait a minute there LuLu, TDF is not a dating site, and you cannot show and discuss your prurient interests to any posters at all, you are going completely off topic, I am sure you can find what you are looking for on some other site, or maybe even in the Ozarks where you live, Hmm? A horny preacher might be the more your liking.

  266. Guest

    You sound good in my minds ear Lak ;)

  267. robertallen1

    Oh, come on, AR. Let her discuss her prurient interests. They're probably more well thought out and interesting than her intellectual ones.

    Maybe she goes down on corn cob pipes.

  268. Epicurus

    im sorry i dont converse with crazies.

  269. Epicurus

    all of my views are empirical and objective. I have no vested interest in atheist of theism. i couldnt care less. all i care about is what the evidence points to.

    someone like you who is not trained in these fields should learn some humility and realize that scientists arent stupid and arent liars.

  270. Epicurus

    and how long did that take? and what was the driving force to make the change happen?

  271. Epicurus

    ya we kept british spelling here in Canada.

  272. Epicurus

    lol its amusing watching two religious people argue over the colour of the invisible unicorn.

    you guys are arguing your own cherry picking views of the bible. enjoy.

  273. robertallen1

    I am not trained in the fields which you are obviously referring to, but I wholeheartedly agree with you.

    But I don't believe it's humility that these people needs, but rather an education in modern science which although readily available, they regard as the forbidden fruit.

  274. robertallen1

    What you consider migration and insolation to be good answers?

  275. Epicurus

    knew from the start it was a waste of time to comment to lulu and biblelover.

    what is the point in talking to people who believe in magic? what is the use? you cant use logic and reason to change someones mind when they didnt use logic and reason to get to that position in the first place.

    saying things like "why arent we still evolving" shows VERY little education. if someone is able to ask a question so stupid, perhaps they should realize they dont have enough information to even question evolution.

    lulu went from the bible to UFOs to HAARP all in one post...if that doesnt scream uneducated and delusional i would say that the patients have taken over the asylum.

  276. robertallen1

    Of course, its a waste of time, but you take your recreation where you can get it.

    But seriously--as you can see, I tried because I feel that if I can set one person on the road to an education (and I've already done this once), I've accomplished something--so think of what a feather in my cap two would be. Notice, unlike the religionists, I don't use the term "enlightenment," for enlightenment (there's a full age named after it) comes not with anything I say or write, but with learning and discover, coupled with intellectual thought.

    P.S. My sincerity gives way to sententiousness.

  277. Epicurus

    just letting you know, that last post there to me was your 420th....heh

  278. robertallen1

    Is this some type of record?

  279. knowledgeizpower

    "Of Whom We Have Many Things To Say And Hard To Be Uttered Seeing You Are Dull Of Hearing. For When For The Time You Ought To Be Teachers You Have Need That One Teach You Again Which Be The First Principles" .............................................. You Can Fill In The Blank For Yourself.

    "I MasterMind Then Go After Mine"

    "Swallow My Words Taste My Thoughts"

    "Get On My Level You Can't Get On My Level You Would Need A Space Shuttle Or A Ladder That's FOREVER"............Peace

  280. Guest

    A wise center in the middle of this storm.
    That last sentence is positively brilliant, with a ring of real poetry.
    Nicely done!

  281. knowledgeizpower

    Yes the last sentence was nicely done Pysmythe I do believe she is wise also. I can agree to disagree with certain viewpoints. I believe we could start sharing more with one another for we are all connected to one another spiritually and physically whether you are one to acknowledge both or not. Some are intuned more with the understanding of their spiritual self in which the ones that do have an understanding should care to express what they understand to others. Sharing is a very positive Action.... I will Always Wish Peace To You and @Az also whether we share the same beliefs or non beliefs. You both have my upmost respect...Peace

  282. Guest

    I said a while back, in one of the posts I deleted during my freakout, that I was going to stay out of these religious arguments from now on, and with only (I think) a single slip-up since then (on this website, that is), I think I've done pretty well.

  283. Epicurus

    no 420 just has some symbolic meaning to cannabis users.

  284. Charles Lozada

    you need a reality check, grow up!!

  285. robertallen1

    I can't stand the stuff, but what is the symbolic meaning?

  286. robertallen1

    Do you have any idea what you're writing about or are you still in a trance?

  287. Epicurus

    oh back in the 70's a group of university students would get together after classes at 420 to get stoned and it has stuck since. so 4:20 the time or april 20th (4/20) are times to smoke up lol.

    sorry, again im canadian, so i partake in the devil's lettuce. lol

  288. robertallen1

    Thank you.

  289. biblelover

    Your right-shekels to drahmas I dont have a clue what insolation is.Why dont you let me know .Peace be until you.

  290. biblelover

    I worried about you.Listening to that Shepherds Chapel.Then again I consider Tomorrows World the only good one on TV.I dont watch TV anymore and I dont own one so that I dont get deceived.Besides its worldly.I do love my KJV Bible.I have a NKJV Bible because of all the thees and thous.However I Worship with my KJV because The eternal deserves all the respect.Peace and blessings

  291. Achems_Razor

    I see the religee's are still at it, at least they are on the right doc.

    These "fundamentalists" (crazies) breeds, Christianity and such are basically a new disease/virus of the mind. They have mutated in a span of about 150 years.

    Now of course they are mutating even faster now because of the information highway, the net.

  292. Guest

    Its insecurity, the world is a big bad nasty place for some people and they don't know how to face the reality of that. Its like burying your head in the sand, place a god between you and all that is out there and you have a reason for it happening and a security blanket when it all goes wrong. I almost envy them. What peace thinking nothing is your fault and there is nothing you can do about anything but watch and wait. The rapture worries me though. If there is an imminent end to everything then nothing matters, not sickness, poverty, the environment. Who cares, why worry about the future, there isn't one worth working for. Can't help but see that as selfish when the future will be the world my kids live in :/

  293. knowledgeizpower

    LoL, some kind of credit geez I have been trying my best to stay on topic for awhile. Whats up Achems Razor Man lol. Tell o'l Epicurus I had to sift through all my mail and I finally found what I was looking for he will know what I am talking about....I'm about to go view Conquistadors let me get away from over here LoL......Peace

  294. Guest

    I agree with you. The best way to keep dog sh@t off your shoe is not to step in it.

  295. robertallen1

    Look it up.

    Peace be with you.

  296. robertallen1

    "I don't own one so that I don't get deceived."

    In other words, you can't think for yourself.

  297. Guest

    So much hatred in this think that some dislike the occasional little out of context joking here and there.. something i sure have participated in.
    Wars start exactly the same way as we have it here.

  298. Guest

    No way Jose!

  299. Guest

    Thought she might have mistaken my ears for something more masculine ;)

  300. Guest

    There's a deep pain inside these people. Maybe a laxative would help.

  301. Epicurus

    i actually have no clue what you are talking about....very curious though.

  302. biblelover

    Thanks for that information you send me.How do I communicate with I wonder.,or what exactly am I suppose to do.I am new to using this high-tech stuff.I think being raised on the farm has stunted my technological growth.

  303. Guest

    Being raised on a farm has never stunted anyone's growth technical or otherwise. Lucky you.

  304. Achems_Razor


    Am with Epicurus on this, I also have no clue what you are talking about.

  305. biblelover

    Does anybody know what this knew bill they just are trying to put into law.Apparently its a felony.Thats the US gov for you.Pretty soon ,if not already they are reading our e-mail to see who the dissedents are.Thats ok If they get me its my time.flesh and blood cant go into the kingdom. The way I understand we will have to die for our faith.No rapture.

  306. biblelover

    You ought to go to religions anomoynous.

  307. biblelover

    I find it strange that so many people believe in this rapture.Like this Harold Camping fellow.He said that May 21 was going to be the rapture.My friend asked me what I thought.As soon as I found out he was a Sunday Keeper I also knew he was a liar.Isaiah 8 v 20 To the law and the testimony if they do not speak according to this word it is because there is no light in them.So if they (preachers and pastors)are not speaking about the commandments there is no truth in them.

  308. Epicurus

    you are not a martyr. there is nothing you do that would make the government read your email and arrest you. you are not a threat.

  309. robertallen1

    Are you sure? I don't trust these religious freaks.

  310. Epicurus

    ya but i also think they suffer from a persecution complex, and delusions of grandeur.

  311. robertallen1

    That's what I mean. You can't trust them.

    By the way, have you ever known a religious nut to practice what he preaches?

  312. biblelover

    How could cockroaches been around fo fifty million years when the earth isn"t even 7 thousand years old.

  313. anuragawasthi

    the devil planted them from some other planet to fool

  314. robertallen1

    When I want to find out something scientific, I go to a science book, not to some hodge podge written over 2,000 years ago. I fail to see why you can't do the same.

    You've outdone yourself in ignorance.

  315. knowledgeizpower

    I have not read about the rapture in the Bible either. I can not find book, chapter, or verse that contains the word Rapture at all in the (KJV) version that I have read. There is however mention of false teachers which I have read 1Timothy Ch 1 vs 1&2. And if one is a minister the mention of their accountability which is also mentioned 1 Corinthians Ch 3 Vs 18-23 Ch 4 vs 1& 2...Well alrighty then I am sorry about your stunted technological growth Lol .....Peace

  316. knowledgeizpower

    Lol I found an e-me address that I may have sent :D..but anyway let me go before ya'll start fussing about being on topic LoL....Peace

  317. Epicurus

    LOL you are a fool. how can the earth be only 7 thousand years old when the agricultural revolution happened 10,000 years ago? domestication of the dog from the wolf was about 15,000 years ago. dinosaurs 65 million years ago.

    how the hell would we get 7 billion people of different races and colours if we started from two people 5000 years ago (noahs ark)

    you are so wrong that it hurts my head. i cant imagine people would say something so incredibly wrong. you are as wrong as if you had just said that the distance from New York to California was 5 meters.

    what a joke. how can people with so little education figure out how to use the internet let alone be interested in a documentary website. go play with some play-doh. thats more your skill level.

  318. knowledgeizpower

    Hmm I have read and yes I am familiar with 1 Thessalonians 4:17. I actually might agree with you on that. I know that is what some reference that verse too yes. little skeptical concerning "left behind" but alrighty then Epicurus thanks for the link I might take a look over it lol.....Peace

  319. Epicurus

    lol dont worry im not saying that i agree with it. just that is the type of answer i have received when i asked the same question.

  320. biblelover

    My favorite Bible is the KJV as well.I also use the NKJV because it easier to read in todays language.My study Bible you might say.However for the final word and for worship I use the KJV.Its the best.By the way what the heck does (lol) mean.anyways peace and blessings to you.

  321. knowledgeizpower

    Well okay that is great to know personally I take my reading and my studies very very seriously. Okay hmm you do not know what that means laugh out loud..possibly will talk later...Peace

  322. biblelover

    Hebrews 3 tells mm that (image of His person and upholding all things by the word of His power.)John tells me that All things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made that was made.God made the earth and heavens from nothing by his word.He spoke it and it happened.A supernatural act by a supernatural spiritual being.You can believe in your science if you want if thats for you.You can trust your science if you want.As for me I"ll trust my God and my Bible. If you think we evolved from a soup fine.They tell you lies(science lies)from a kid and you start to believe as in your case.

  323. robertallen1

    No, your Bible lies to you because you lack the ability to understand it and are woefully ignorant of its history. At least, science has evidence while you have nothing except a 2,000+ year old book which you swear by based on nothing.

    In short, you have the mentality of a medieval peasant and even that's an overstatement, considering your view of the age of the earth.

    Believe what you want to believe, but it still makes you an i****!

  324. Epicurus

    no science gives us theories which are repeatable and verifiable. you can test them and learn them yourself.

    what you have done is read a book and believed it to be true without any evidence.

    science uses evidence. there is a huge difference.

    if science didnt work how would we be communicating right now? would you pray for god to send me a message or is the internet much more reliable?

    hebrews tells you and john tells you...what you mean is that people who lived 2000 years ago and didnt know anything about this world wrote a book and you just believe it. fine with me....but you are not being very intelligent.

  325. biblelover

    Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?Tell me,if you have understanding?Who determined its measurements?Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it.To what were its foundations fastened?Or who laid its cornerstone.When the mourning stars sang together.And all the sons of God shouted for joy.Or who shut the sea with doors.When it burst forth and issued from the womb.When I made the clouds its garment,And thick darkness its swaddling band.Have the gates of death been revealed to you?Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?Tell Me if you know all this.Have you entered the treasury of snow,Or have you seen the treasury of hail,Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,For the day of battle and war?By what way is light diffused,Or the east wind scattered over the earth?Can you bind the cluster of of Plieiades.Or loose the belt of Orion?All mankind and all the brilliant sciencetists,archologists and the rest of them have no idea how powerful the eternal Almighty God really is and either do I.Its incomprehensible,but I know this I choose to fear Him,love Him and keep his commandments.

  326. robertallen1

    So you laid the foundations of the earth? I knew there was something wrong, just as there is something considerably demented about the rest of your twaddle.

    You're so mentally threadbare you don't know what to fear, what to love and which commandments to keep--in short, you don't know anything.

  327. Epicurus

    yes you can quote the bible. Job 38:4-31

    you choose to believe in fairy tales and super heros. thats what you choose.

    you dont know how to use your brain or think for yourself. you just keep quoting the bible thinking its true. thats sad really.

  328. Josh Tuppen

    It always seems to me that atheists are more than happy to sit and discuss the aspects of science and religion, whereas creationists get upset very quickly, is this due to the fact that none of you have logical minds, this is the only reason i can come up with for your beliefs, I mean how do you explain the dinosaurs if the earth is only 6,000 years old? Please "enlighten me" because I can see evidence FOR dinosaurs, but none against.....

  329. Achems_Razor

    That's easy, their gods put the dinosaurs bones to test their faith!

    Or maybe their devils and demons, Lucifer was playing a trick.

    Ask some of the mindless religee's they will reply to the affirmative.

  330. over the edge

    you can quote the bible all you want. it is not proof of anything. the bible is full of contradictions with itself,history and logic. but choose to believe it if you want. but you are not expressing it as a belief. evolution is a fact and the theory of evolution is by far the best explanation of that fact. you choose to fear your god , that is sad why would you want to live your life in fear? or do you need that fear to force you to try to be a good person? i try to live my life as a socially responsible, moral person not out of fear but because it is right. but if i believed in your god i would be afraid as well. i mean he condones rape,murder,homophobia, slavery and if by some chance you don't choose the right god (1 out of 28 000 000) you will burn forever regardless of how good you are. he sounds like a bully with a huge inferiority complex.

  331. LouSipher

    you need more attention than we can give you here. Quite obviously your god ignores you badly. Might as well give up ... nobody has seen any god ever ... sorry my mistake ... i have ... i have seen the godfather ;-)

  332. Jack1952

    When I was around 11 or 12 years old I found the fossil of an earthworm. It was as if the Medusa had turned it into rock the day before...the detail was incredible. I brought it home and excitedly showed it to everyone. One day a friend was visiting and I wanted to show him my fossil but it was wasn't where I left it. I looked everywhere, asked everyone but it was gone. It was very disappointing. Months later during supper, the subject of fossils came up. My mother abruptly announced that fossils were evil...that they were products of Satan placed here to tempt God's faithful. I knew at that moment that she had destroyed my fossilized worm in the belief that she was saving my soul. I was no longer angry about the loss but I was saddened that my mother lived in such fear of divine retribution.

  333. Jack1952

    If I ever become a Christian, the first thing I would do is pray to God that I never end up spouting mindless religious cliches for the rest of my life. There is no wisdom in repetition.

  334. Jack1952

    I don't think the Bible lies. It is just a reflection of what people thought and knew at the time. To be mistaken in one's understanding does not make one a liar. It just makes him wrong.

  335. robertallen1

    I stated that the Bible lies to biblelover because he lacks the ability and knowledge to understand it. I did not make the bald statement that the Bible lies.

  336. Epicurus

    no Obama (who is not a muslim) and Harper did not sign any NAU bills. you are either completely lying or getting your info from Alex Jones.

    do you have any extra tin foil hats?

  337. Epicurus

    this made me sad....this is why religious is often child abuse. and it is so subtle people dont even realize. for many kids those methods work and they never grow up curious enough to look at and wonder about fossils.

  338. hayesane

    ......the when you die, you will really who my God is..

  339. LouSipher

    The usual hidding: afterdeath, after death... Don't threathen us with your fantasies, we are no kids anymore but grown up free humans and brave enough to defy any powerful gods.

    The sad thing about you, you will not even be deceived when you die because you won't be no more. Complain now to your local deity.

  340. Guest

    I'll get back to you.

  341. His Forever

    Josh, I've actually found the atheists to be the most close-minded of all people I know, not the Christians.

    The Earth is older than 6,000 years. I personally think the young earthers are wrong (but then again, I could be wrong also and it is 6,000 years old). We know that dinosaurs existed. They left fossils. Fossils seem to be found in different categories and groups, leading many to the theory of ages in evolution.

    God is eternal--no beginning--no ending. I have three theories for the creation of the universe and subsequently the creation of man by God:

    1. God instigated the Big Bang, and the universe was created in the process that most scientists think it was. Let's face it, a "singularity" the size of a pinhead exploding with nearly infinite mass and energy for no reason and then expanding to fill the whole universe is just about believable as . . . well, God doing it!

    Subsequently, the earth was formed in this way also, but not life. Life was began by God and was governed by God for large amounts of time (perhaps millions of years when the dinosaurs existed in many kinds) before mankind was created in the Garden of Eden some 6,000 years ago (or older). Young earthers base that time period from the genealogies in the Bible from Adam to Christ, but that depends on the complete accuracy of the list without any omissions.

    Genesis 1:1 says that God "created the heavens and the earth" and then Genesis 1:2 states that the Earth was "void and without form." My Biblical scholar father said that the earth was originally created by God and governed by Lucifer before the rebellion and fall. Lucifer becomes Satan after the fall which destroyed the earth and the heavens at that time. So, the Adam and Eve story is a reformation of the earth and the solar system.

    The chaos from the fall of Lucifer (and God's judgment) is why it's "dark", and "formless" and "empty". It's a restoration process, not the original creation, because why would God create it "void" and "empty" and "dark" only to add the good stuff later? Select animal species and perhaps some dinosaurs were also recreated at the time of Adam and Eve (whenever that was in the past) in the literal 7 days as stated.

    This would account for the dinosaur fossils and the age of the earth and the universe, as it it really IS ancient.

    Theory 2:

    God created the universe "in progress" such as starlight, some grown trees, and some seedlings, etc. But this would not account for the dino fossils. No they weren't placed there by Satan to test the faithful--that's the most stupid thing I've ever heard of!

    Theory 3:

    The Genesis account is more symbolic than I would like to believe, and was written for a simple people at a simple time for them to understand. God is still the creator, but the when and how is more flexible than we first thought. I don't believe in theological evolution--that's just the first step to total atheism, as "Chris" from the documentary, "Why I Am No Longer A Christian" proves quite sadly.

    Whichever way, Josh, don't run from facts, but don't assume you know all truth to the exclusion of God's existence. People groan and moan when I say that if you guys are right, I've lost absolutely NOTHING from being a Christian as we are all just dirt and fossils while we yet live, but if I'm right, then there is a Heaven to gain and Hell to shun and the details of the ancient past shouldn't be a stumbling block to knowing and serving God; we don't have all the answers yet, but we will some day. Have a little faith.

    With faith and peace,

    Charles B.

  342. His Forever

    Biblelover: I agree. It's good to keep things in perspective, isn't it?

  343. Achems_Razor

    Charles, That is your theory of everything, right? I have a good memory.

    Am sorry, but it is still hilarious, completely full of holes, I won't point out the errors but am sure someone will, maybe Epicurus, that would be his forte.

  344. robertallen1

    "That was God talking not me." You're even more delusional than I thought.

  345. Jack1952

    Maybe I was reacting to the word "lie". It can be a very contentious word. Upon reflection, you may be correct in your assertion of a lie. Biblelover is lying to himself. He believes that he has found the answer to all questions. He is using the Bible to prove his intellectual, spiritual and moral superiority over those who do not see things the way he does. The perception of superiority is the lie.

  346. Epicurus

    i feel like a broken record. im not repeating myself to charles anymore. if he insists on staying a child forever and believing silly things that have NO EVIDENCE whatsoever, so be it. c'est la vie.

  347. robertallen1


    I read through the site you recommended. Seems dense and awfully speculative. Cannot see how it relates to the issues I raised. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

  348. biblelover

    What you dont know is what is happening in stealth.As for Obama we don t who or what his he'll hijack the next election like Bush did.I do that Obama is CFR and there is evidence that he was at bilderberger meetings.Plus he is a liar and deceiver.HE still tortures people at G.Bay.He killed Gaddafi under his watch.Who the f..k does he think he is .Gadafi deserved a faif trail.Of course the CIA wouldnt have it because the truth might come out.Plus Bush and his minions deserve the death penalty for his war crimes.After a fair trail of course.

  349. robertallen1

    I agree. Obama is despiccable, just like you.

  350. biblelover

    If you think the Bible lies then you are calling God a liar because it the only book we have thats the truth.And what are you right.You are nothing you and your pride are nothing but vapour in the Lords nostills.By the way you and all your unbelieving friends need to repent.Or I recommend you buy alot of depends at Wallmart because when Jesus/Yeshua comes came with all his angels in glory and power you will need them (LOL).

  351. biblelover

    Dinosaurs died with the flood.How do you know if a dinosaur is 6000 years old 60000 years old or 60000000 years old.It only takes 100 years for a fossil or other organic material to petrify.Who told you that dinasaurs are millions of years old.Some scientist .We are fallen creatures therfore are science machine are are flawed and unreliable.Whether its carbandating or whatever its unreliable.And so are you by the way.You need to repent.

  352. biblelover

    The fear Im talking about is healhty fear.If your Dad says not to touch the stove when its on then you would be glad and thank him.I do not live in fear but in the sense of fear I mean revere or great respect.And Im very,very happy.Why,because ,I know the truth.And if my heavenly father says dont sin because sin causes death I believe him and act in obedience.Period.I dont ask questions about it.If you think he is a bully wait and see when he comes back in glory and power.I recommend you buy some depends.

  353. biblelover

    I dont think the Bible is true.I know it is. Its the only book that is true on this planet.Whats sad is you.Why?Because you seem to know the Bible yet not believe.I would pray to God to help me with my unbelief if I were you.

  354. biblelover

    What commandments.The ten commandments written by the finger of God.Or how about love your God with all your heart body and soul.And the second one is like it.Love your neigbor as yourself.Do this and you will fulfil all the law and the prophets.You need to repent.

  355. Epicurus

    if it is happening in stealth then you dont know it either. so dont pretend you do, and dont say it is happening.

    we dont know what religion ANYONE truly is if you want to get nit picky, but Obama says he is and acts like a christian. he believes Jesus is his saviour and his key to heaven, and he goes to church.

    I dont think CFR and Bilderberger are scary NWO organizations so that doesnt matter at all.

    He is a liar, but isnt that just a given with politicians. you just try to get the one who is lying least and trying to help your ideals most?

    He didnt kill Gaddafi at all, the rebel forces in Libya did that. and it wasnt America at war with Libya, it was NATO.

    if you mean Osama, then i agree he deserved a trial. I would disagree with Obama on that decision as i would with many of his other decisions.

    and yes the Bush administration ought to be put on trial.

  356. Epicurus

    you date the sediment that the fossil was in. there are many radiometric dating techniques and other chronometric dating methods.

    what is unreliable is the bible. if you believe in talking snakes and floods and man living with dinosaurs then you have the intellect and mentality of a 6 year old. go back to school.

  357. biblelover

    These people who lived two thousand years ago were filled with the Spirit.Of course the word of God is foolishness to those who are perishing but to us who believe it is eternal life.Praise the Lord!

  358. biblelover

    No my Bible doesnt lie.You do because the truth is not in you.What do you know!Or think you know.Your just a vapour in the Creators nostrills.Here today gone tomorrow.

  359. Epicurus

    no you THINK it is true.

    how do you KNOW it is true?

  360. Epicurus

    no they werent. those people had slaves, and married children. they were not special. we are much much smarter than they could dream of being.

    the fact that you are on the internet on a computer sitting in your house is a testament to the truth of science.

  361. biblelover

    Yes I like your theories.It makes sense.What we know is that God is not an authour of confusion however how can we know the mind of God and His everlasting Power.I just know I believe because the mericiful gave me faith and Im grateful.To believe a scientist is folly because they are just men.Dont get me wrong there is some good evidence out there but never the whole truth.Plus some scientists also believed in creation,Einstein for instance.Anyways peace and blessings to you!

  362. Achems_Razor

    Scr*ew your god @biblelover, my god "EHWA" will annihilate your God/Yeshua as the bitch that he is!

  363. biblelover

    No we havent seen God.But I experienced him,when He healed my liver instantly.How do you explain that.I guess the same way my doctor did it was spontanous healing.Jesus will come back in glory and power.I recommend you repent or buy some depends at Wallmart.

  364. Achems_Razor

    Again, scr*ew your creator, we are "all" like water vapour on a glass, because we are so small in the vastness of the cosmos, as "Carl Sagan" said, one swipe and we are all gone.

  365. Epicurus

    lol Einstein didnt believe in creation!

    Einstein wrote to a friend:
    “the word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.”


    to believe a man 2000 years ago is actually writing the words of god is not only folly but hands down stupid.

  366. Epicurus

    what was the problem with your liver? it is not a mystery that the liver is able to repair itself sometimes. its not a miracle. and if it was a miracle how would you know that it wasnt Zeus that performed the miracle? why assume the god of the bible?

  367. biblelover

    In reply to The dinosaurs died with the flood.It only takes a hundred years for organic material to petrify.Besides because of the fall of man in the garden of eden we are all flawed.And if we are flawed so are are tools such as radio-dating and so on.Unreliable.Period.Take a rock for instance you,me or the next guy scientists included could tell you how old that rock is.6000 years old or 60 billion years old.There is evidence to where the rock was found but never any concrete evidence or proof.How would we ever know we werent personally around back then so we know nothing.Thats humble because God is real.The good news is ,is that theres hope for the living.

  368. biblelover

    You need to repent!

  369. Jack1952

    Isn't it strange how science is so reliable in our everyday use of household gadgets but is such a failure in other things? I'm sure if your computer breaks down you don't pray over it. No laying of hands or sprinkling of holy water. You take it to a technician who understands that if all hardware and software are in proper working order your computer will operate. He knows this to be true and so must you or you wouldn't take it to him. This is science at work. You only believe in science when it is convenient for you. As soon as it contradicts your belief system you reject it. You create your own little world which conforms to your own personal whims. Not very honest.

  370. His Forever

    Mr. Razor: Yes, it's the the "theory of everything" I had about a year or so ago. I should have just cut and pasted and saved two hours of typing. I think it's on For the Bible Tells Me So, but I added a few different options (2 and 3). Similar, but not totally idential.

  371. robertallen1

    How do you know what the truth is?

  372. biblelover

    If my computor breaks down obviosly I need a technician.But why does it break down in the first place.Because we life in a world with sin and fallen creatures.Fallen creatures create inperfect objects.Surely you dont think computors are perfect do you.Our heaven father is perfect,rightous and Holy.What about you.Are you saved.Do you not wonder what happenes after we die.I had a near death experience and Im here to tell you there is a Creator.

  373. robertallen1

    And you need to learn a lot, especially about fossilization.

  374. robertallen1

    All your posts show just how happy you aren't.

  375. robertallen1

    No, you don't know that the Bible is true. As a matter of fact, you don't seem to know anything except how to go on and on about what you don't know and have no wish to know. You're disgusting.

  376. robertallen1

    What spirit and how do you know this--and don't demean yourself further by quoting the Bible. Epicurus is right, you have the mentality of a kindergartner.

  377. robertallen1

    Ah, so Jesus healed your liver. Would you mind sharing your medical records with us so we can verify this spontaneous healing because I certainly don't trust someone as mentally unsable as you've shown yourself to be.

  378. robertallen1

    You are woefully ignorant of all knowledge since the Age of Enlightenment. Your ignorance extends to paleontology, evolution and especially radiometric dating, but you go on long a dumb force.

    There'll be hope for the living when you quiet down.

  379. robertallen1

    No, it's you who need to repent--repent of your ignorance both in terms of knowledge and attitude.

  380. robertallen1

    Well, put.

  381. robertallen1

    Your knowledge of the heavenly father is tantamount to your spelling.

    It's a shame that your near-death experience (ha, ha) wasn't a shade more serious. We would have all been spared.

  382. Achems_Razor

    Alright Charles, I did not mean to demean you with your theory of everything, you are basically the only religee that I and lot of other posters on TDF like.

  383. His Forever

    Biblelover: Calm down, buddy. You're stepping on the host's toes, and his generosity to allow us to post and comment here so extensively. Stay polite as possible. The Apostle Paul "became all things to all people." Meaning, he didn't treat the scientist the same way as the ditch digger--he specialized his arguments to match the people he was talking to at the time.

    Why don't you do some thorough research into carbon dating, and fossils? I too have read that fossils can be formed very quickly, but you need some scientific backing for your claims or people will just mock you (and God). I saw a stalactite with a bat trapped in it = meaning it was formed so quickly the bat didn't have time to decay or be eaten by insects. I've also read about soft tissue residuals in dino fossils that surely couldn't be there it it was millions of years old.

    Epic says you date the rocks around the fossils to date the fossils. You should research that method. I talked to one scientist in person and he laughed when he said they date the rocks by the fossils and then date the fossils by the rocks. Once they decide that something such as a trilobite is only found in ancient rock of one period in history, then all the rocks with trilobites are of that ancient time period. But you're right, they dated fresh volcanic rock right from the lava flow as millions of years old once (according to the scientist I talked with). Oops! Not entirely 100% foolproof methods.

    As far as carbon dating, it works well for material that was once alive, but is now dead but has a limited amount of time (say 2000 years) for accuracy. They can date something like a skeleton 500 years old pretty accurately, however.

    I'm myself need to focus and answer the questions about Biblical archaeology, but it takes so much time to research. Wife's calling me on the carpet for my extensive time on the computer as it is--and she's right---God first, family second.


    Charles B.

  384. Epicurus

    there is no evidence of a global flood.

    if we are flawed, then the bible is flawed since it was written by men.

    they could tell you how old the rock was for SURE if it was micas, clay minerals, tephra, and evaporites, or any type of volcanic rock. they would use potassium argon dating or K/Ar dating.

    When dating the hominid fossils at Olduvai gorge we found they were 3.5 million years old because the volcanic rock deposited above and below the fossils were from 4 million and 3 million years ago.

    this is all stuff you could learn if you actually cared to and went to school. but nope. you are going to waste your one single life away living in a fantasy world of make believe. have fun.

  385. Epicurus

    nothing is perfect and nothing has ever been perfect.

    i know people who have had near death experiences and tell me there is no god. i also know people who are muslim who had near death experiences and they swear that their god is the real one and they had experienced it personally.

    do you not wonder what you were doing before you were born?
    same thing you will be doing after you die. nothing.

  386. His Forever

    Biblelover: I would very mucy like to hear of your near-death experience. Now "near" to death, and what did you experience?

  387. robertallen1

    If you are referring to the eruption of Mt. St. Helens, you are pathetically wrong. The person making the assessment was a creationist using the wrong type of test. Even the personnel at the lab he went to told him he was conducting the wrong type of test; yet, so ardent was his desire to disprove carbon dating (to hell with science) that he did it anyway and then issued his boeotian proclamation.

    Try some of your own medicine by reading up on this, wife or no wife, family or no family.


    Robert A.

  388. His Forever

    Robert: I've seen people healed too that the doctors couldn't explain: hearts, gloccoma, asthma, cancer. And these are just people that I know personally. I wish more were healed as such (every time we pray), but still many are.

  389. robertallen1

    Unlike the religionist, the scientist's standards are too high to admit knowledge of everything' but at least a scientist will state point blank when he is puzzled and not give some inane reason such as the intervention of a higher power (through prayer) whose existence he cannot prove much less know anything about.

    As for the people you know personally who were spontaneously healed, how about providing us with their medical records, for I certainly don't believe you.

  390. His Forever

    Yes, I understood that, Mr. Razor. I wasn't put off at all, actually. Peace.

  391. His Forever

    I think the volcanic rock in question was from Hawaii, not Mt. St. Helens. There wasn't any volcanic rock from Mt. St. Helens, was there? Just ash. I met this person around 2003 in person, but yes, he was a Creationist.

  392. robertallen1

    Then don't believe him.

  393. His Forever

    I'm not in America any longer. Most of the healings were in America, but if somoone that I know of here is miraculously healed without a good medical reason, I'll see if we can get copies of the medical records. As for the asthma and the gloccoma, that was my mom, so I saw the healing with my own eyes.

    As far as other healings and miracles, I watch a lot of Sid Roth's It's Supernatural. You may have some people fake healings and/or ressurections for the dead, but I can't image every guest out of hundreds that are lying evil-hearted fakers.

    Science is maturing and growing and changing daily. Until we fully understand how God created everything (such as with the Big Bang), etc., it's a much wiser and eternally safer bet to acknowledge that God is real, and we don't uderstand everything yet scientifically.

  394. His Forever

    Epic: I don't understand your numbers for the dating of the ash from Mt. Vesuvius. I'm assuming from you comment that the numbers are quite similar to the actual date we know of the erruption. Please clarify and edit your post for me. Thanks.

    My bad on the carbon dating. The 2000 years I just pulled out of the hat as an example without checking first. Good call. I'll add it to my list to check into further. Seriously.

    That bat still didn't take thousands of years to get trapped in the stallacmite even at lower temperatures and the presence of sodium. That was my not-fully-stated reason for the example.

    T-Rex was bird-like in some ways? What's your point? I think you're implying decent via evolution from dinosaurs to modern birds. Correct? What not a common creator instead?

    Here's a sincere question: I'm assuming that modern reptiles do NOT have a medullary bone when they lay eggs, as your whole point would be mute if they did. If dinosaurs were more bird-like than modern reptiles, then how did we get modern reptiles? Through which evolutionary line would they come?

    I fully understood your example of superposition. I'm not a young earther, in fact. I just don't live in your cut and dry Godless world, so forgive me if I have a little intellectual reservations about accepting whatever any geoogist says is unrefutable.

    Lastly, I've considered that my entire worldview might be wrong, but concluded, "So what!" I don't think so, but as I said before, I loose nothing at all once I take my last breath--which staticially will be 10 years longer than yours as as non-religious person. I'm fully mentally capable of assessing the situation as such. Don't be so personally insulting.

    As far as the dino soft tissue--contaminaiton is possible, but not probable from what I've read, but million year old soft tissue seems exceedingly unlikely.

    Logging off now for lunch.

    Peace to all,

    Chalres B.

  395. Jack1952

    My comment reads "I don't think the Bible lies". Read it again. Maybe you should say that we are nothing, we and our pride are nothing but vapor in the Lord's nostrils. Your pride is demonstrated in the satisfaction that you seem to have in my eternal damnation and your own personal salvation. Not very Christian of you. Remember, Jesus states that no one is worthy of the kingdom of heaven. Don't be decorating your heavenly apartment yet.

  396. over the edge

    for anyone new to this discussion let me break down the last couple of days
    in my made up discussion
    biblelover- i am right because the bible tells me so
    everyone else- how do you know the bible is correct?
    biblelover- because it is the word of god
    lulu- look at me i am bat freaking nuts ( not a direct quote but close enough)
    everyone else-up the dosage lulu
    everyone else- how do you know it is the word of god?
    biblelover- because the bible tells me so therefore i am right
    everyone else- (bangs head on keyboard)
    biblelover now on to science. it is wrong because i don't understand it and somebody told me some crazy things that i believed without confirming.
    charles- (can't remember it exactly but compared to the others on the side of religion it seemed rational and he agreed with some science)
    everyone else_ hey biblelover here are some facts and evidence supporting the scientific claims
    biblelover- these facts are wrong and i am wight because the bible tells me so
    overtheedge ouch is this what an aneurysm feels like? forget it stop the bus i will walk the rest of the way

  397. His Forever

    Well, Jack, you spoke some truth there that "no one is worthy of thekingdom of heaven." I really agree with that! It's only by God's mercy that any of us will make it.

    Just a last random thought before lunch: Forgive your mom for throwing away your worm fossil (which I hope you have), and understand she had your soul's eternal destination in mind. Good intentions are not always justifiable of the means, but in this case don't hold it against her or againt God by extention. I had some great fish fossils that got stolen from my garage. Truly bummed about that!

    I have a Christian nacklace made from mastadon ivory from a friend--really one of a kind!

  398. robertallen1

    Well, let's see your mother's medical records as well as those others you promised to provide, for I will not take the word of an ignorant bible-thumper like you.

    There have been medically documented cases of cancer reversing itself. Although scientists don't know why this happens, they admit their ignorance and try to cure it by scientific research. They don't just ascribe what they can't explain at present to a supernatural force (spontaneous healing) like some troglodyte.

    Using Sid Roth as your source for the existence of the supernatural says everything about the quality of your assertions. Repeatedly you have been shown to be grossly wrong, not only by me, but by other posters who have proved themselves beyond doubt to be more steeped in what they are talking about than you are.

    Your unimaginative, intellectually threadbare non sequiturs and puling, shallow, ignorant advice: "Until we fully understand how God created everything, . . . it is much wiser and eternally safer bet to acknowledge God is real and we don't understand everything yet scientifically" says a lot about you and everything you stand for.

  399. biblelover

    Its no use.Im truing to help you.There is a hell.Its where the worm never dies and the fire is never Quenched.I hope you repent.

  400. biblelover

    Look around you.Cant you see a evil fallen world.It wasnt always like this.Until Adam and Eve s disobeince.God is Holy righteos and just.He is also a gentleman.If you reject him he will honour that.However Jesus ,the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.He then offered himsellf as a sacrifice and shed his blood.Why because when we brake Gods law,Thats what sin is ,transgression of Gods law (Ten commandments).There is a penalty for that.Its death.You may think thats mean but consider if someone killed your wife would you be angry if they got off.f coutse you would be.Wheres the justuse.So God is love but he is also a righteous judgde.Anyways the good news is (good news means gospel)we dont have to sacrifice animals anymore as in the OT times because Jesus/Yeshua becomes the Lamb of God and then we can come boldly to his throne and he becomes our High Priest.The Living God and we dont have to serve idols which neither see nor hear nor do any good nor evil.We then can serve the living God, the creator of the universe.Also rememember in Egypt when the death angel passed over the Hebrew household and they had the blood of the lamb on thier door lintels.No harm came to them because of the blood.The precios blood washs our sins and we become a new creature.Except the Lamb of God is now Jesus so we dont have to sacrifice animals anymore.He rose from the dead(Jesus)and defeated the enemy,the devil but also gives us redemption and the we begin to have a loving relationship with this.God cannot lie because he is holy and perfect therefore his letter to us (the Bible)is also truth.I can show you prophecy after prophecy that has come true.Even though these men of God are gone the facts that are written hold true.Jesus is alive at the right hand of God
    and will come back.Psalms 40 v 7 (I will come in the volume of the book it
    is written of me)Ask God to help you and read a chapter a day it will
    come.He honours those who dilentengy seek him.Good luck and God bless.

  401. hayesane

    Hey listen my friend, I'm not threatening you actually and its not a fantasy, but I want you to know that there is a God who created you and he loves you and he wants you to know him.He wants to give you peace and hope.You must know that life is real. When we die, it's not the end!There is Life beyond the Grave!
    Just think about living in this world without, die and be no more...that would be senseless...
    Humans are unique created beings-more than animals.think about it..
    You may think that Im trying to be religious, but no, its not religion, religion doesnt help,but its about the reality of life. Its about knowing the God who created us and the world that we live in today...

    God Loves You....

  402. LouSipher

    Of course you haven't. You couldn't have. None has seen, heard, smell, touched or taste any gods ever nor will anyone.
    Religion is puerile at is best. At its worst a dictatorship like any other.
    The amazing thing is the ability of the brain to maintain delusional thoughts for whole lives. What an evolutionary organ !!

  403. LouSipher

    I just can't believe or trust a word out of a religious person at all mate !! I was brought up as a catholic. Nothing personal.

    And no god created me ... my parents mixed their DNA which alone developed into me. Science has already assembled a whole organism ( a bacterium, google it) from scratch making your gods creation a punny lab trick.

    Sometimes I wonder why after 2500 years since the greeks invented logic we still refuse to use it properly? Yes, maybe it takes a bit of an effort and consequently takes energy but when you need an operation it is science based in logic that saves you not fantasies.

  404. LouSipher

    With all due respect fellow evolved primate ... I doubt anyone is reading your post completely, don't bother.
    To anyone else you are just talking mambo jambo. You've crossed the line and what your are doing now is using this platform to preach. It could easily be that you are one of those volunteers who trawl the net in the name of some monotheistic sect posting anything.
    It is a mad thought but then again what you are saying borders madness.

    I hope Vlatko takes action.

  405. hayesane

    Hi mate, yes of course you don't have to trust me because I'm just a person like, but it's not about religion or me being religious. Its about Knowing God that matters. And its God who created you by your parents' DNA-and its God who created your parents DNA! When God first created man and woman he told them to multiply(replenish) the earth by bearing children...This is how you came!
    Even science did not create your parents DNA by which you were formed. Think about it...
    Science is not actually bad,God gives scientific knowledge to man, it helps us alot in modern days,but science is a discovery of what God had already created and put in place in time... and it is God who gives scientific logic knowledge to save you from an operation....Think about it

    God Loves You

  406. His Forever

    That was actually pretty funny.

  407. His Forever

    Roberallen1: Robert, to be honest, I rarely lie. Are you implying I've lied about my mother's asthema being healed? If I had her medical records and posted them online for you to see, what would you say then? Probably something about spontanious healing tripe as stated above. All I know is that before prayer, she couldn't make a day without her nebulizer (not just an inhaler), nor hardly even walk down the street without wheezing excessively, but after prayer from our neighbor (who was a woman pastor by the way), she had 0 asthma attacks for 20 plus years now. It was very dramatic.

    P.S. I haven't been proven "wrong" on anything. After I've done my research, I'll get back to you (most likely) as I have time.

  408. His Forever

    Epic: This is curious. Do KNOW these Muslims that had near death experiences that told you about them personally? It sounds like it.

    You called me on the carpet about me seeing the bat in the stallactite personally or on a website (it was a slideshow actually), so I'd like to know the answer to this one: Where have you seen or heard a testimony of a Muslim's near death experience where they met something similar to their own beliefs?

    I've actaully seen several videos just the opposite where the Muslims experienced various degrees of a Hell experience before coming back to life. Just curious.

    Also, the ones that had a near death experience that said there is "no God," did they have an exerience at all that they can recount? If so, what was it? Just curious. No rememberable experience wouldn't necessarily negate an afterlife. I just curious how they knew there was "no God" after their near death experience. And were they actually "dead" or just unconcious? Unconciousness for everyone certainly yeilds no memories. Nearly dead and really dead for a certain amount of time are certainly different, in my opinion.

    Peace to you,

    Charles B.

  409. His Forever

    Thank you hayesane! I forgot the Hebrew word for multiply was (replenish) here. Very unusual meaning and usage if the earth had never been populated in some way before the Garden of Eden and before Adam and Eve. I'll have to study that futher also. Blessings.

  410. robertallen1

    You need help, but in the meanwhile, spare me your half-witted, ignorant drivel. It's not worth responding to.

  411. robertallen1

    Is your idea of reality of life that "humans are unique create beings more than animals?" Do you have any idea what you mean, much less what you're talking about?

    By the way, how do you know so much about God and nothing about anything else?

  412. robertallen1

    I wouldn't say that the Greeks invented logic, but they sure developed it.

  413. robertallen1

    How do you know so much about god (whichever one) and what this entity has given us?

  414. robertallen1

    Fine, you rarely lie, but this could be one of those times--or perhaps you're delusional or just plain ignorant. One way or the other, I don't believe you--and no, you haven't done your research; otherwise, you would not spout the inanities which you have--but again, maybe you would--anything to justify your pathetic religion.

  415. robertallen1

    When you relate some extraordinary experience, you expect everyone to believe you uncategorically, but when someone else does, you question. Why don't you apply your cross-examination to something constructive, like your own beliefs--but again, I'm assume rationality on your part.

  416. yallcomebacknowuhear

    It amazes me how so many self proclaimed geniuses continually prove themselves to be just the opposite on this forum. Why do you find it so necessary to belittle others? Is it to make you feel better about yourself? Be careful it's a long way to fall off that high horse your sitting on.

  417. robertallen1

    If you are referring to the religees, they deserve it. It's one thing to be ignorant; it's another to attempt to foist off their ignorance on others, such as children, whom they desire to remain just as ignorant as they.

  418. Jack1952

    Once again you ignore the meaning of my comment and re-interpret it to suit your own vision of life and use it to recite more religious platitudes.

    As for your near death experience, I will not question that you had an experience of some kind. What I do question is your interpretation of this event. As it is a personal story, it is not verifiable or repeatable, it can only be described as a anecdotal event. Therefore, it does not fall under the description of scientific proof. Please google the scientific method and understand why my statement is true. If you can understand what I mean when I say scientific it does not mean that you have to give up your belief in God. It just means that you now have a deeper understanding of how science works and why (not how) your computer works.

  419. robertallen1

    I expected you to turn it into something silly--anything in the name of your idiotic beliefs.

    If you break your leg, are you going to beg (pray) your god to heal it, are you going to consult a faith healer or are you going to visit an orthopedist? If the plumbing in hour house fails, who are you going to call in, a diety or a plumber?

    A lot has happened since the bible was codified.

  420. Epicurus

    Yes i have known them personally. I live in an area with lots of muslims, and my university has a high population of muslims.

    i have heard christians say they have seen a hell like place, and i have heard christians say they have seen nothing.

    but here is a quick quote from an article on NDE:

    "Does a person's religious belief affect the likelihood of experiencing such spiritual feelings on the threshold of death? A study by Zalika Klemenc-Ketis and colleagues published in the journal Critical Care investigated this question in a search for possible commonalities among people who have near-death-experiences, and the findings are provocative. Examining medical records of heart attack patients together with detailed questionnaires about the individual's religious beliefs, other personal attributes, and medical data, the researchers found that if a person was an atheist, his or her chances of having an out-of-body experience were the same as for a Catholic or Muslim.

    What then can explain who will and who will not see that light at the end of the tunnel on the threshold of death and turn around to tell the world about it? The person's gender made no difference. Age, level of education, fear of death before the cardiac arrest made no difference whatsoever. But they did find a common thread among those who had battled the light and returned to their body.

    The common feature among those who had out-of-body experiences was a rise in carbon dioxide levels in their blood above a certain threshold ( 5.7 kPa). None of the other chemical measures of the patients' blood had a significant bearing on who had experienced such a spiritual event. Extreme hyperventilation can do much the same thing to the brain, explaining perhaps why those in extreme danger and near fainting can experience the phenomenon.

    The study suggests that by more carefully controlling the blood's acid/base balance during a medical crisis, which becomes upset when blood is overloaded by carbon dioxide, the whole mysterious experience can be prevented."

  421. Epicurus

    i hope you repent and convert to hinduism or you will be reborn as a worm and never reach nirvana. your "soul" will be in an eternal suffering cycle of birth, death, rebirth.

    see, when someone threatens you with something you dont believe at all, it just doesnt matter in the least.

  422. Jack1952

    I was upset by by the loss of my fossil but when I realized what had happened I lost all my anger. My mother was a kind and dedicated woman, albeit a devout and dogmatic Christian. Unlike some religious folk on this site she eventually became quite willing to speak of her beliefs without the use of religious platitudes. We had many theological discussions over the years and her beliefs evolved and matured over the years as a result of some of the points that I made in our talks. What I am saying is (pay attention you zealots out there) that she listened carefully and was willing to learn new things and would accept them as fact if proof was available. She remained a devout Christian her entire life.

    A lot of dogmatic Christians cannot understand that God's greatness cannot be contained in the pages of one book. The Bible is a brief synopsis of his Being, told to a people that have no way of understanding the universe as we do. From reading your posts I can see that you can understand this. Doesn't mean that I agree with your views or that I believe in God, only that I am speaking on a theological level.

  423. Epicurus

    can you prove it? and can you prove that it isnt zeus?

  424. His Forever

    Mr. Allen, I've lost all respect for you. How could I be "delusional" or "ignorant" about my own mother's divine healing? I was a teenage in her house. We lived together 24-7. Before prayer--life-altering asthma; after prayer---no more asthema. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand something that simple.

  425. His Forever

    Jack: How did her beliefs evolve and change and yet she still remained a devout Christian all her life? That's vague at best.

  426. His Forever

    Epic: Is this article about people that died (clinically) for a short time? The testimonies I've listened to have been more extensive than "a bright light". Carbon dioxide levels in the blood would only apply to those that had a very short NDE. I'm interested to hear what you've been told first-hand. You can e-mail me if you don't mind. I'm just curious to know.

  427. Jack1952

    This sounds like a plausible and logical explanation. I think that the zealots out there should take note that you used the used the word "suggests" and did not claim that you now have the answer to near death experiences. If only everyone could grasp this simple concept.

  428. Epicurus

    but you should question how you can attribute prayer to it. you also have to wonder why people all over the world have their prayers unanswered. you also have to wonder why would your mom have asthma in the first place if god was just going to cure her anyways. if it was to strengthen her faith, how come he is personally meddling in the affairs of your family and not others? how come a girl is being raped by her father right now as we speak but your mother got cured of asthma?

    there is no evidence and no good reason to suggest that prayer had anything to do with the asthma going away. you might as well attribute it to any other supernatural cause. take your pick.

    not meaning to be rude, but just showing you how a unbiased critical thinker would look at the situation.

  429. Epicurus

    what i was told first hand...lets see if i can remember.

    this person was someone i worked with for a number of years. he had gotten in a car accident and said he was dead in the hospital for a number of minutes. what he witnessed was like a muslim version of hell then he saw Allah who pulled him out of hell and up into his body where he could see the doctors working on him and claims that he heard the doctors talking in the other room and was able to tell them what they were saying and they were very shocked (of course i dont believe that part).

    ever since he has been a devote muslim.

    its also odd to note that many people who experience a NDE after attempting to commit suicide, dont experience a hell.

    its also odd how many secular NDEs there are.

  430. robertallen1

    I expected you to turn it into something silly--anything in the name of your idiotic beliefs.

    If you break your leg, are you going to beg (pray) your god to heal it, are you going to consult a faith healer or are you going to visit an orthopedist? If the plumbing in hour house fails, who are you going to call in, a diety or a plumber?

    A lot has happened since the bible was codified.

  431. robertallen1


    And I never had any respect for you--but Epicurus phrases it far more elegantly than I can.

  432. Guest

    You made it vanish, how do I delete my own things ? All I can do is dot over myself or turn myself into guest, can only you chaps delete ?

  433. Jack1952

    I did not intend to be specific but I can give you an example. In a discussion about whether the Bible was the infallible word of God I mentioned that the Bible contradicted itself on many occasions. In 2nd Samuel 24:1 it says that God directed David to do a census of Israel. However, in 1st Chronicles 21:1 it says that it was Satan that directed him to do this. Quite a difference. My mother thought about this quite awhile and after much study and discussion and after the discovery of more Biblical contradictions, she began to feel that total accuracy in the Bible was not important. What was important was the overall meaning and the how the Bible can inspire one to lead a better life to find personal salvation. A huge difference from the woman who threw out my fossil.

  434. LouSipher

    In very simple terms. Atoms created in the big bang end up in a place called earth. Then combining together some end up forming complex molecules which given the time in that environment end up replicating themselves. DNA is the result. More molecular reactions happen which create more complex associations which end up in the first life. The rest is evolution.

    Time ... enough

  435. Guest

    I was almost tempted to give you a like for i agree, elegance is not a quality you seem to wrap yourself with.

  436. Epicurus

    lol sorry i didnt delete it. someone must have cleaned it up. all i saw was the dots. i was just goofing around.

  437. Guest

    Where on earth did Lakhotason go?!

  438. Guest

    Damn it, I'm so gullable! It must be true-the older you get the dafter you. Sorry :)

  439. Guest

    No idea, here one day and gone the next! Maybe he's gone walkabout. Hope he comes back soonish :/

  440. Guest

    If we SHOUT he might hear and turn back.

  441. Guest

    But his entire profile appears to be deleted...

  442. Guest

    I know, nothing there. Hope hes ok. He might sneak back in disguise, would we recognise him? Now I'm going to be suspicious of anyone I've not seen before.

  443. Achems_Razor

    I didn't delete or clean it up, must of been Vlatko.

  444. Guest

    Dont sweat it guys, no worries :)

  445. Guest

    I just noticed that too...what the hell...o? He is a fine participant. Come on hide and seek.

  446. Guest

    Looks like he might've pulled a Pysmythe, doesn't it?
    Maybe he just felt he was spending too much time here, or something, but, in that case, why delete your profile...?

  447. His Forever

    Epic: Thank you for indulging me. What is a "Muslim version of Hell"? How would that differ from general Christian interpretation of "Hell?"

    Do you believe any part of his story at all? Or do you think it was raised levels of carbon dioxide in his blood during the death process? It sounds like you believed part of his story.

    As for attempted suicides, do you mean they experienced nothing at all, or they experienced a Heaven vision as opposed to a Hell vision?

    Secular NDE are not surprising--if you believe everyone has a soul no matter what their beliefs may be.

    I wish I had the time and money to fully investigate such things as proposed resurrections (as oppossed to NDE).

  448. His Forever

    Well, I DID have initial respect for you at first, but not any longer. It's exceedingly insulting to be called a liar.

  449. His Forever


    You can delete your own post from your "activity" page on Discus. Go there and scroll over the right-hand side. Hidden icons for replay and delete appear there.

  450. His Forever

    Jack: Wow! Great observation. The answer is very simple: James 1:13 states "Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone."

    If you read the story of David numbering the children of Isreal, he (David) repents for that "sin" and God actually punishes David (and Isreal) for that particular sin. I think the sin was trusting in his own military power rather than relying on God.

    In Hebrew when something is ALLOWED by a greater power, you can also say that it was commanded by that same power. There is a Hebrew idiom that states a person is said to have done what he permits to be done. As God is supreme king, he allowed David to be tempted by Satan as stated.

    Even If we didn't have both passages where one specifically mentions Satan tempting David, we could still understand these passages as David's sin which God allowed, because David repents TO God for his foolishness and God judges David. I'm glad we have the passage that specifically mentions the temptation of David by Satan for clarification.

    God will not judge as "sin" what He Himself has desired you to do, but He can and will judge as sin what He has allowed you to do that is against His will.

    We so often view Biblical texts only from the Western/English understanding of the passage, but we must remember it was a Middle-Easter mindset written in Hebrew which can have a slightly
    different connotation. Translations have limitations.

    I hope that was helpful.

    Peace to You,

    Charles B.

  451. His Forever

    I'll add it to my list of a dozen things to check out.

  452. Guest

    Thanks C :)

  453. biblelover

    Anyways Ive decided not to preach if possible on here anymore because I just end up getting a bunch of hate mail.And another thing I found out is that I am wrong or could be wrong about the earth being only 6 thousand years old,however,during my sabbath it came upon my heart to look up the first earth age and this gave me some answers.I still believe that this current civalisation is only 6 to 14 thousand years old.So I repent of my mistakes and peace to you all.

  454. robertallen1

    What is the "first earth age?" What is "this current civilisation?" What are you talking about?

  455. Richard Shannon

    Not many comments about the doc. It was basically garbage, there is no evidence of Camel domestication before 1000 BC.??? Come on, I knew that was a downright falsehood the moment it rolled off his tongue, nevertheless I looked it up just to be sure, before calling it out here.

  456. biblelover

    look it up

  457. robertallen1

    How do you this about the domestication of the camel? You say you looked it up, but considering that you didn't tell us where you looked, I don't believe that you did this at all.

    And no, the documentary said much that was valid.

  458. robertallen1

    You used these terms, so it is up to you to tell me.

  459. biblelover

    Oh come on,its up to me to tell you.OK one I"m wrong.The earth itself is old,apparently.The first earth age was before the creation of adam and eve.And it was inhabited with spiritual beings,no flesh beings,and in this first earth age were the dinasours.It was also the rebellion of the fallen angels and God destroyed it and created the present earth age.Thats the jest of it.However I really encourage you to look up the first earth age on Google search and it will take you on some amazing rabbit trials.Even if you dont believe in God Im sure you will enjoy it from a scienctific point of view.Atlantis and other mysteries are alsp explained.It will take you on some interesting trails that may quest you to ask yourself some important questions.Peace.

  460. robertallen1

    Your ignorance is on a par with your spelling.

    I can only guess that by the "first earth age" you mean from the time the earth was created. No one knows anything about this, but our earliest knowledge is not of spiritual beings (how ridiculous), but of simple, microscopic, creatures of the water--dinosaurs came much later--now that's the GIST of it.

    Try to get an education.

  461. Epicurus

    lol you just want to believe in magic dont you?

  462. robertallen1


    Perhaps you can explain to me why religionists lie to prove their point and scientists rarely do (let's face it, the Piltdown man was an anomaly)? Is it because deep, down inside, they know they don't have a leg to stand on--but perhaps I give them too much credit.

    Your thoughts would be appreciated.

  463. biblelover

    How do you know this.

  464. Epicurus

    remember the piltdown man hoax wasnt perpetrated by a scientist but it was a scientist that showed it to be a hoax!

    The phrase, "you lie so much you believe yourself" comes to mind.

    they also project their own level of intelligence on others so they figure if they dont know, no one else can know thus they can lie.

  465. biblelover

    I noticed that your very intelligent,(ie.your knowledge about the camels?lol.

  466. Richard Shannon

    Wow, that was my first comment here, I didn't realize we needed footnotes, but it seems someone has beat me to the punch. But really, did we need to look it up? I mean it seemed completely illogical to me such a late date for the domestication of an animal that begs to be domesticated, especially in that area of the world. What is more troubling is that this "scholar" went on to say that there was absolutely no evidence whatsoever for the camel's domestication in East Asia before this date, which is a downright prevarication as proven by several sources including those mentioned below.

  467. Epicurus

    sorry if you can find the quote or time in the movie that they mention this it would help. but from what i remember their point was that in he Joseph story, it refers to camel-based traders carrying gum, balm, and myrrh, which is unlikely prior to the first millennium, such activity only becoming common in the 8th-7th centuries BCE, when Assyrian hegemony enabled this Arabian trade to flourish into a major industry.

  468. Epicurus

    i have lots of knowledge about lots of things. from psychology to anthropology to a fountain of knowledge. ask away.

  469. robertallen1

    Thanks for the quick answer, but wasn't Arthur Smith Woodward, one of its perpetrators, a scientist?

    But you're right; they need to keep others as ignorant as they are. Kitzmiller is a fine example of this!

  470. Epicurus

    to be fair no one knows if Arthur Smith Woodward knew that it was a hoax, he could have just been lazy at examining it. no one has really officially been blamed for that actually.

  471. robertallen1

    "It seemed completely illogical to me" so you made a statement and an ignorant one at that. You tried to wing it and failed.

    You have not had time to read all the material suggested by Epicurus, so don't call the experts in this documentary prevaricators, for that puts them on your level.

  472. robertallen1

    O.K. How many calories are there in a quart of creamed hippopotamous juice?

  473. robertallen1

    I understand, but wasn't British nationalism also a factor in the hoax?

  474. Epicurus

    lol pfft, everyone knows you cant cream hippopotami!

  475. Epicurus

    yes absolutely. they so badly didnt want to have come from Africa and to be able to show they came from England would be incredible for their nationalism.

    so ya thats one of the reasons he is suspected. but so was Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

  476. robertallen1

    O.K., how about regular hippopotamous juice?

  477. robertallen1

    Thank you.

    But when you look at it, in the history of science, there have been relatively few scandals in which reputable scientists have been culprits, wouldn't you say? By comparison, the religionists should blush for shame.

  478. Achems_Razor

    Oh come on, everybody knows it is 1600 calories in hippo juice.

  479. robertallen1

    I don't know. Maybe Biblelover doesn't. After all, where does it appear in the Good Book?

    Now, who is buried in President Grant's tomb?

  480. Achems_Razor

    You asking me? a Canadian hoser? If it is not Grant, then do not have a clue.

  481. biblelover

    I admire that.I dont have any questions right now.Your from Canada are you not?Its raining and foggy here in Vancouver,B.C.

  482. robertallen1

    If I recall correctly, the question was first posed for laughs by Groucho Marx (by the way, George Fenneman, his announcer, was Canadian) on "You Bet Your Life." I even remember watching this episode, but when the contestants gave the obvious answer, it was considered the wrong one, for according to the show, the correct answer was Grant and his wife.

    For some reason the question became a popular, though false, epitome of the obvious, for the correct answer is no one. Grant and his wife are buried in a crypt.

    Now, here's another one, oh, font of knowledge (Canadian division): which English poet did the proscription against ending a sentence with a preposition originate with?

  483. Epicurus


  484. Epicurus

    well you arent buried in a tomb so no one.

    but he and his wife are entombed there.

  485. Epicurus

    Was that John Dryden?

  486. hayesane

    The Big Bang Theory is a scientific assumption=full of "Maybes" and "uncertainties". Even evolution is also an assumption by Charles Darwin..It is God who created all...

    Only a fool will say, "There is no God!"

  487. Vlatko


    Yes, and we all lived happily ever after.

  488. Achems_Razor


    "John Dryden" who originated the prejudice against ending sentences with prepositions.

  489. robertallen1

    Absolutely.  I'm curious.  How did you know?

    Well, here's another one.

    This famous actor made two famous films for this famous director
    back to back.  In one he played a good guy and in the other a rat?  Who were the actor and the director and what were the movies?


  490. Achems_Razor

    Pretty sneaky there Epic.

  491. robertallen1

    And only an id**t would say there is one without proof.

    And only an ignoramus would state that evolution is "an assumption by Charles Darwin" when it is merely a biological description of life on earth which has nothing to do with creation.

    "It is God who created all . . . " Are you just learning to read?

  492. robertallen1

    And only an intellectual cretin would state that there is a god without proof.

    And only an ignoramus would call evolution "an assumption by Charles Darwin" when indeed it is merely a biological description of life on earth with nothing to do with its origin.

    And only an uneducated peasant would term the big bang theory "a scientific assumption . . . ."

  493. robertallen1

    I stand elaborated on.

  494. His Forever

    Piltdown had to be hoaxed by someone with at least some knowledge and expertise and a vested interest in the "discovery"--follow the money (or in this case, the glory) and that's where I'd start with an investigation.

  495. His Forever

    I think that God created the universe and the Big Bang was essentially how He did it. It's logical as Big Bangers basically have to say it came from "nothing" as Hawkings does, and came from an infinately small "sigularity" that without reason (know to man) it exploded into everything. My understanding of science is finding out how God did it.

  496. His Forever

    Biblelover: Have you seen my Theory of Everything posted below? That's essentially what I am currently inclind to believe. The only exception is that the Earth wasn't inhabited ONLY by spiritual beings. My dad says they were also human and from them the demonic entities were derived after the destruction of the earth during Lucifer's rebellion (I've taken his word for it, but I'm still researching it for myself). Anything without solid Biblical evidence is just theory (Biblically speaking).

    Charles B.

  497. His Forever

    Thank you, Epic. I'm again assuming your Muslim friend saw such visions in his NDE "Hell" which you neglected to specifically say.

    It's something to think about.

  498. robertallen1

    As you assume the existence of a creator, your understanding of science is nothing worth mentioning.

  499. robertallen1

    Your dad apparently knew as much as you do, only you're more idiotic for taking his word for it.

    By the way, what is "solid Biblical evidence"--as if you know?

  500. tomiundergallows

    I certainly recognize the link between the Epic of Gilgamesh & other Mesopotamian stories and biblical tradition, but what connections are you referring to for Horus and the other gods? I ask because it sounds like you're getting your information from misconceptions capitulated by the Zeitgeist movie and originating from Acharya S' "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold".

    I am in no way, shape or form religious and do not want this comment to be taken as religiously motivated. I only think it's a shame that the historicity of many rich cultural traditions are being skewed and distorted if not outright rewritten in order to take a shot at a set of religious institutions that needs absolutely no help incriminating themselves for manipulation or historical fraud.

  501. Richard Shannon

    It's around 36:30 when the silly girl says, "According to the archeological evidence, the camel could not have been domesticated as a beast of burden before the first millennium BC."

    Which is proven false by all of Epicurus's sources, and quite frankly, common sense.

  502. robertallen1

    You really are ******** or maybe you never learned to read or maybe you don't want to read, for Epicurus' sources back up the documentary. Secondly, this is not a matter of common sense.

  503. robertallen1

    You obviously have not read Epicurus' sources--so don't lie. Secondly, this is not a matter of common sense.

  504. Richard Shannon

    Yeah man, had those read back in the 8th grade, but even in 5th I knew animal domestication dates back 10's of thousands of years, so the first millennium mark seemed a bit specious.

  505. biblelover

    Yes this is very deep for me to understand.No,I have not seen your Theory or Everything yet.Anyways on this one website The First Earth Age,theres a theory that we lived before in spiritual bodies but now we are in our flesh bodies to see if we will love our God because He doesnt want robots.Anyways thanks for the post if I can get in that is.peace and blessings to you.

  506. His Forever

    Biblelover: I think the revelation that the earth might be truly as old as some scientist speculate helped saved my faith in my mid 30's. It helped me realize there are gaps in both my Biblical understanding, and in science as well. What I'm still musing about is the creation account in Genesis. I need to study until have I have full peace of heart about such things without avoiding the hard questions.

    I want to study because I know my kids have a near-genius I.Q. (as does my wife) and the time will come when they face these same questions. I want them to have a similar experience as myself that say, "Wow! My dad answered that one well." Rather than, "I'm so embarrassed that my dad is so ignorant."

    You can trace anyone's comments via Discus.


    Charles B.

  507. robertallen1

    How about peace of mind--but again, you don't know that much about the mind. Ask your near-genius wife and kids.

  508. biblelover

    Thanks, I am curious,where would I be able to get this Theory of everything anyways?What bothers me is that the Bible is"nt always literal like I thought it would be.I know its the truth but yet in the Genisis story there seems to be these hidden messages.And then I thought about the fact that The LORD says that a thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years.That still does not account for the millions of year discrepicy between years so I dont get it.I do believe that he commanded it and the it happened.Job seems to account for alot of unanswered questions that I have,for instance Job 38 v 32 is talking about dinosaurs.As far as flesh beings,being here in the first earth age,that does not make sense because then it would mean that The Almighty formed us out of clay twice.So thats where I stand on this.I"ll study more scipture and do more research but this might not be what the Bible is saying.Its a love letter to us full of parables,history allegories,and symbolism as in revelation.Whats makes it truth is the fact that God uses two or more witnesses as Daniel the prophet and John of Patmos.Anyways God bless!

  509. robertallen1

    You know the Bible's the truth. How do you know this?

    You do believe that he commanded it(ostensibly creation) and then it happened. On what tangible (and I don't mean biblical) evidence do you base this belief?

    What makes you think that Job 38, verse 32 talks about dinosaurs which had died out at last 50 million years before man came on the scene? And don't cite the word Mazzaroth, a word of disputed meaning among biblical scholars.

    What makes you think you have the ability to comment intelligently on anything in the bible?

  510. Epicurus

    what makes you think that websites theory is correct? what is their evidence besides making you feel good?

  511. Epicurus

    linguistic anthropology class while learning the arbitrariness of language and rules.

    such as i before e unless after c....thats actually an exception. since more words have ie after c. apparently there are over 900 words that go cie, which is 21 times more than the ones that go cei.

    as for this riddle, i have no clue.

  512. robertallen1

    You're right. The arbitrariness of language (and its rules) makes it (or them) difficult to analyze, much less codify. For example, the general rule is that the adjective directly precedes the noun it modifies--then why does it seem bizarre to say or write "I would like a cup of good coffee."

    The answer to the riddle is George Sanders. The films are Foreign Correspondent and Rebecca and the director is Alfred Hitchcock.

    Speaking of English, here's another poser. Give me a common English verb with two opposite meanings.

  513. Guest

    Does it begin with C ? :)

  514. biblelover

    I base the Bible as truth based on faith.And other things as well.For instance chairiot wheels were found at the bottom of the Red sea,Plus Noah"s ark was found on the mountains of Aaraat.Refererence:A Rude Awakening. The Bible is a true story of Adam and Eve"s fall and Gods plan for redemption.However you can believe what you want or trust what you want.After all God gave us a free will.And a conscience to know right from wrong.We all need Gods redemption because we all broke Gods law (Ten commandments) and the penalty is death.I dont make the rules,the eternal God does.The gospel is simple however I not going to go further because I not going to use this as a platform for preaching but you get the jest of it.Besides I wasn"t talking to you,I was addressing Charles.

  515. Epicurus

    damn, i had a feeling Alfred Hitchcock was the director. but im terrible with actors.

    the first word that comes to mind is Bound. you can be bound as in tied up and not moving or homeward bound as in moving.

  516. Guest

    i was away for a couple he back?
    I got some catching up to do.

  517. Achems_Razor


    No, maybe a bear ate him. I know, it is not funny.

  518. Guest

    I was wondering where you were at...
    No sign of him...
    Maybe you guys should check the bear scat up your way? lol. He'd be the shite with a southern accent, which I suppose means to check for traces of barbecue sauce.

  519. Guest

    You could try leaving a message on a doc hes likely to watch, he left so suddenly theres a chance he might still be keeping an eye on things :)

  520. Epicurus

    if only you guys had gotten skype....tis a shame.

  521. Guest

    He vanished after those two docs about Facebook and Network society...looking at the comments on those might have convinced him to cancel his file and go on with his movie camera and shoot a doc of his own. I sure would these days. I got the blues, i am in transit right now and it ain't easy. Bears are snoring at the moment.

  522. Guest

    Had some bear meat a long time ago....sure was some tough flesh.

  523. robertallen1

    Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. Ambrose Bierce, Devil's Dictionary.

    I don't know where you're getting your "information," but:

    1. No chariot wheels have been found at the bottom of the Red Sea because Moses and his flock were never there. The term is a mistranslation from the Hebrew Yam Soof.

    2. Noah's ark has never been found for the simple reason that there is no way to identify it. Secondly, the term Ararat refers to an entire area, not to a certain mountain. Third, it would have been well nigh impossible for someone living at what is generally considered to be the time of Noah to have built a ship that large and have it survive a flood. Fourth, even if such a ship had been built, it would have been impossible for it to carry two of every kind of animal (I wonder if this includes amoeba or where they adrift to fend for themselves).

    3. The story of Adam and Eve is merely a fable with parallels in earlier works. If it were true and Adam and Eve were the first of their kind, we'd all be the products of incest which is a bit incredible although I can imagine that you believe it.

    You know nothing about the culture of biblical times much less the history of the bible itself; yet, you make assertions of all kinds backed up for the most part with nothing but quotes from your good book. In short, all your knowledge boils down to what you read in the bible--a horse with blinders has more vision than you.

    You and your ilk are so misinformed it's pathetic.

  524. robertallen1

    Nice try, but no. Your second example is not a verb. The word is cleave. You can cleave together or in twain. The reason for this is that in the Northumbrian dialect which in essence superseded the others there as a verb clevein, to rend asunder, and cleven to cohere. They sounded so much alike that they were confounded.

    O.K. You're doing well, oh font of knowledge (Canadian style). Here's another: what was Ambrose Bierce describing when he wrote "the raw material out of which theology created the future state?"

  525. Guest

    I should ask Vlatko to post something on photography or nature. That should draw him in.

  526. Guest

    The blues and in transit sure doesn't sound too good at all, Az...
    Hang in there, champ. If there was anything I could do, I surely would.

  527. Guest

    well you just did one bit...thank you

  528. Guest

    I'd love to talk and joke with you and maybe lift your spirits a bit, but I don't want to get in trouble. If you ever want to do this skype thing, though, I'm game, I guess, if you feel it could help you out. Heck, it'd give me a good reason to run a fresh blade over these too often rough cheeks, too, lol.

  529. biblelover

    I admire all your knowledge,so the question which archalogists are right and which are wrong.There doesnt have to be concrete evidence,I"ll still believe the Bible.How about this Daniel 7v 25.He shall speak pompous against the Most High.Shall persecute the saints of the Most High.And shakk intend to change times and laws.Tell me how Daniel the prophet knew in c.586 B.C. about the pope saying hes god on earth or how die he know that in 364 A.D. the Council of Laodicea would change the true sabbath to Sunday starting with Constantine"s original Sunday.Or that the Unholy Catholic Church wouldkill trre chistians fron 533 A.D. to 1798 if the Holy Spirit didnt tell him?Lucky guess?Thats one prophecy that came true.I could sit here all night and tell you hundreds more but whats the point.

  530. Achems_Razor


    Are you blue? Well, maybe there ain't any bears, but wait! I heard Oregon is big foot, Sasquatch country! my bad.

  531. biblelover

    Then you read the Devils Dictionary.My Bible says that he comes to kill,steal and destroy.One of his tricks is to convince people he does not exist.Consider the source.I did mean ararat,the area.

  532. robertallen1

    To hell with what your bible says. You don't even know what I'm referring to.

  533. biblelover

    I dont need to know what your referring to.Anyone who quotes a Devils Dictionary has no crediblity with me.

  534. robertallen1

    You really are a moro* and an intentionally ignorant one to boot.

  535. His Forever

    I believe in Sasquatch too. Gotta be real!

  536. His Forever

    I've noticed your absence too, Az. If there's anything I can help with also, let me know. I DO pray when asked or when I say I will. The blues will pass; it's just part of life.

  537. His Forever

    Biblelover: Well, sadly, that's how atheists feel about the Bible too. I sent you a long reply with my e-mail address (awaiting moderation). Hopefully it will pass. Peace. I'm off to a Church Christmas party--I've been looking forward that for a month!

    Charles B.

  538. biblelover

    I have your e-mail,what does moderation mean.I"ll send you my e-mail when I e-mail you.I dont want those devil-worshipers to get it.

  539. robertallen1

    @C_and_N and Biblelover:

    You're grownups and you believe in the devil!

    Stunted mental development at its finest.

  540. biblelover

    I believe in God, not the devil,however he exists and is the adversary.We have victory in Christ by the blood and the name.Jesus destroys the works of the devil I read the book-I know who wins.

  541. Guest

    Cant have skype on this thing :( do have messenger though and i think I can instant chat on gmail but I'm not sure how to do it. This is the only place I've ever done this sort of thing.

  542. Guest

    Perhaps he didn't want to leave too much of a footprint here and has wandered off for a while. Nearly new year, he might be doing a bit of life laundry. Hope your blues become rosy again soon Az ;)

  543. robertallen1

    A textbooks case of cerebral polio.

  544. Achems_Razor

    You religee's are nothing but vampires and cannibals, drinking your Christ blood and eating of his flesh, and to top it off basically on someone who committed suicide, all completely pagan, devils and demons worship and succubus-incubus entities and other vile creatures that slither and crawl around in the night, to look for same to satisfy their prurient lust.

  545. Epicurus

    actually just saying he shall speak pompous of the most high does not automatically mean the pope. you are making what is called an Ad Hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

    he didnt know about the pope he didnt know about the changing of the sabbath.

    and the bible said christians would be mocked and persecuted because it told them things that werent true. so it knows people would question them

    if i was writing a book like the bible i would add a part that said "in the future people will laugh at you and mock you" does that mean im telling the future if it happens?

    no it just means that im aware some people wont believe my claims because they are unbelievable.

    the archaeologists that are correct are the real archaeologists who have the artifacts and have the measurements and have published work on these artifacts that have been peer reviewed by fellow archaeologists.

    there is not a single REAL archaeologist that says they found chariot wheels in the red sea or an ark.

    why would you just believe the bible no matter what? why dont you realize that the people who wrote the bible are just men like the people who wrote other religions holy books. what makes you think they are right and the others are wrong?

  546. Epicurus

    lol extinction?



    you got me on the bound one. you are right the second example was an adjective...

  547. Epicurus

    and dont forget....jesus essentially had two

  548. robertallen1

    You're right--see how well you did although the question was not in your range orf expertise which I believe is more in the sciences rather than the arts.

    So, if you don't mind, I'll try another? Who wrote, "So I took out my knife and shot him?"

  549. Epicurus

    no clue, but it sounds like something Bob Dylan would say.

    lol but we really ought to stop since this is so off topic it hurts...

  550. robertallen1

    Sorry, way off. George S. Chappelle, My Northern Exposure, 1922.

    But at your request, I'll stop.

  551. robertallen1

    You have repatedly described how the devil deceives and last night I began to see how, for in my sleep there came to me a vision clearing up the ruse. You're the devil and I'm Jesus Christ.

  552. Guest

    At the moment i am accessing the internet at the library, this would limit us to sign language and i know only a couple words my 1yr old grandson is teaching
    I need to reach out more in town, i have been a recluse for too long. Just became a member of the French association, this is bound to open some doors.
    I will stop with this exchange since it is out of topic but i must say at least it is peaceful....what i read in this long thread is war at it's best minus the guns.

  553. Guest

    Blue and sometimes purple but i have moments where i go back to pink and then white.

  554. Guest

    Blue is part of the rainbow of life.
    I do not pray to the traditional GOD of religion, i do not accept an outside higher GOD, when i can be that myself.
    I communicate with the energetic me and it connect to me through syncronicities, "so called coincidences", so called "lucky events and encounters" and the likes. Sometimes the flow slows because of my own lack of reaching within.
    But i can tell that for you prayers is what works....
    "a chacun sa manière"...but "merci" for caring.

  555. Guest

    Doing laundry myself....the "curtains" surrounding my Self needed refreshing. I think i am at the spinning cycle right now.

  556. Guest

    Only a spell on the line to blow away the cobwebs and all will be well, just try and avoid the mangle :)

  557. biblelover

    So your Jesus Christ!Thats blasphemy my friend.

  558. robertallen1

    You should know, ignorant devil (the word is "you're").

  559. biblelover

    There are other prophecies that verify this in John the rev.Obviosly you dont know how to use the references in the Bible correctly.God uses two or more witnesses.LIke I said there are possibly hundreds of prophecies,one of which Israel will become a nation in one day.But whats the point.Like Lazarus and the rich man,in Luke,Abraham tells the rich man in Hades that a man was sent and was raised from the dead and they still wont believe.

  560. biblelover

    The religous leaders called Jesus a devil,how wrong they were.Jesus is God.Lamb of God,Son of God,Lord of Lords and King of Kings,The almighty,Lord of Hosts,I AM,Alpha and Omega,El Shaddi,Yeshau ha Mechaciah,The Messiah and on and on.You sir are nothing but smoke in the Creators nostrills.Here today,gone tomorrow.God bless you!

  561. robertallen1

    Obviously you don't know how to read the Bible intelligently.

    Do you also believe in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy or is it just the devil (namely yourself) and Jesus Christ (namely me)?

    "They" is far smarter than you, for "they" ask for proof.

  562. robertallen1

    And you, Mr. Devil, are the son of a syphlitic camel.

    God damn you.

  563. biblelover

    No,I do not believe in Santa Claus.Christmas is the celebration of Nimrods birthday,the sun deity,or Baal.Why dont you let be believe in peace.I dont understand why so many non-beleivers hate us.Oh well.It is what it is.

  564. robertallen1

    I guess you're just too stupid to understand what an abomination ignorance is, worse than though on a par with idolatry.

  565. robertallen1

    I guess you're too stupid to understand what an abomination ignorance, such as the type you and others like you spread is, worse though on a par with idolatry, an example of the devil's handiwork.

  566. Epicurus

    okay so im going to show you things that muslims claims are predictions and prophecies made in the quran that have come true. i want to know why you accept your religion and not islam if its based on the accuracy of prophecies.

    "Their skins will bear witness against them as to what they have been doing" (41:21)
    This is a prophecy about fingerprints. the print on the SKIN of our fingers get us in trouble with the law.

    "Corruption has spread on land and sea because of what men’s hands have wrought" (30:42)
    This is pollution. men have wrought pollution with the technology they built and it has made the land and sea sick.

    And after him We said to the Children of Israel, 'Dwell Ye in the promised land; and when the time of the promise of the Latter Days come, We shall bring you together out of various people." (17:105)
    well look at that...the quran even predicts Israel.

    "They will alter Allah's creation." (4:120)
    this sounds like genetic engineering and plastic surgery.

    "And when the female-infant buried alive is questioned about – For what crime was she killed." (81-9,10)
    EVEN WOMENS RIGHTS! i dont see the bible predicting that women will have rights!!

    "And when books are spread abroad." (81:11)
    The invention of printing press and publication houses and consequently spread of books every where is one of the prophecies of the Quran made in the dark ages of ignorance and illiteracy.

    so why does the quran have all these prophecies? is the quran the true word of god?

  567. Achems_Razor


    Your Jesus is predated by 10 Christ like figures that have parallel and similar attributes which encompasses all that cr@polla that you said above about your Jesus.

    1...Horus. 2...Buddha. 3...Krishna. 4...Odysens. 5...Romulus. 6...Dionysus. 7...Heracles. 8...Glycon. 9...Zoroaster/Zarathustra.
    10...Attis of Phrygia.

    The Christianity religion and your Jesus religion is guilty of plagiarism, plain and simple!

  568. biblelover

    Its too bad that you sound very unhappy.You reap what you sow.Me-Im happy,why because God makes me happy.

  569. biblelover

    The thing is I am happy and you"re not.I know my God and He is Holy,Righteous and merciful.I can not explain it and I will stay with it.All these other pagan ideas come from you"re own head.God bless you!

  570. biblelover

    Why do you say God .... you.You do not even believe,so why even say it.You"re confused-In Babylon-means confusion.

  571. biblelover

    These are not prophecies.The Koran was written by one man.Islam was created by RCC in the 6th century.Just another trick by Satan to killthe christians and jews.

  572. Epicurus

    Islam was in no way made by the roman catholic church.

    christianity was made as a jewish cult.

    The prophet Muhammad introduced Islam in 610 A.D. after experiencing what he claimed to be an angelic visitation. Muhammad dictated the Qur'an, the holy book of Islam, which Muslims believe to be the preexistent, perfect words of Allah.

    so dont just make up lies so you can ignore something. who told you that the RCC formed Islam?

    how do you know satan isnt trying to trick you with christianity? how can you be certain?

  573. biblelover

    The RCC worship the Sun,and Islam worship the moon-Go figure.Muhammad was nothing more than a pedophille who married a six year old girl.Thats a fact.

  574. Epicurus

    Abraham married his sister

    Howbeit, otherwise also she is truly my sister, the daughter of my father, and not the daughter of my mother, and I took her to wife. And after God brought me out of my father’s house, I said to her: Thou shalt do me this kindness: In every place, to which we shall come, thou shalt say that I am thy brother. [Genesis 20:12-13]

    Moses was the product of incest also

    The sons of Merari: Moholi and Musi. These are the kindreds of Levi by their families. 20 And Amram took to wife Jochabed his aunt by the father’s side: and she bore him Aaron and Moses. And the years of Amram’s life were a hundred and thirty-seven. [Exodus 6:19-20]

    and here is some incestuous rape in the bible.

    And it came to pass after this, that Amnon the son of David loved the sister of Absalom the son of David, who was very beautiful, and her name was Thamar. And he was exceedingly fond of her, so that he fell sick for the love of her: for as she was a virgin, he thought it hard to do any thing dishonestly with her. [II Kings 13:1-2 ] And Thamar came to the house of Amnon her brother: but he was laid down: and she took meal and tempered it: and dissolving it in his sight she made little messes. And taking what she had boiled, she poured it out, and set it before him, but he would not eat: and Amnon said: Put out all persons from me. And when they had put all persons out, Amnon said to Thamar: Bring the mess into the chamber, that I may eat at thy hand. And when she had presented him the meat, he took hold of her, and said: Come lie with me, my sister. She answered him: Do not so, my brother, do not force me: for no such thing must be done in Israel. Do not thou this folly. [II Kings 13:8-12] But he would not hearken to her prayers, but being stronger overpowered her and lay with her. [II Kings 13:14]

    now, what makes you think the RCC worships the sun and islam the moon? where did you get this crazy information?

    have you been listening to conspiracy theories by the two crazies Alberto Rivera, and Jack Chick??

    you need to learn how to think properly. you seem to be getting tricked into believing very obviously false things.

  575. biblelover

    Im not tricked into anything.So the Bible has had their share of evil characters-I dont deny that.Yes Abraham married Sarai/Sarah,but whats your point.What about Jesus he was sinless.Muhammed was a terroist and a pedophille and they RCC worship on sunday (the venerable day of the sun)and Islam worshipp the moon,look at their logo.Its always the cresent.The RCC has a wafer(mocking Jesus and reducing hin to a wafer)inside a sun disk.But anyways you think your so smart and you are but you will not think you"re self into salvation unless you repent!

  576. robertallen1

    Living proof that ignorance is bliss.

  577. robertallen1

    From his own head? If you would read something other than your idiotic bible, perhaps you would learn something, though I doubt you have the capacity to.

    And you wonder why so many put you down!

  578. robertallen1

    You're happy, all right--like a simpleton.

  579. robertallen1

    Obviously, you do not know a prophecy when you see one--just another crease to your ignorance, Satan!

  580. robertallen1

    Maybe you're a pedophile, too, and a jealous one at one, just like the god you worship, you little satan, you.

  581. Epicurus

    yes muhammed was a pedophile, and war monger. but jesus wasnt sinless. jesus worked on the sabbath in a couple passages, that is one of the 10 commandments, he didnt wash his hands before eating, he also tried to tell people they didnt have to follow the Mosaic law. that itself was punishable by death.

    sorry he was not sinless.

    Luke 11:37-54 describes a meeting over a meal between Jesus and a Pharisee. Jesus angrily and abusively attacked all Pharisees, saying that their "inward part is full of ravening and wickedness." He referred to the Pharisees as "you fools," "hypocrites." In Matthew 23:13-36, Jesus refers to them as "blind guides," "blind fools," extortionists, unclean, serpents, a brood of vipers, murderers, persecutors, and being full of iniquity, etc.The sin in this case is to attack another individual for their religious beliefs and practices. To call them fools is particularly serious. In Matthew 5:22, Jesus is recorded as saying:

    "...anyone who says to his brother 'Raca' is answerable to the Sanhedrin [the Council]. But anyone who says 'You fool' will be in danger of the hell fire" (NIV)

    "Raca" apparently means "I spit on you." That passage seems to imply that a single insult of the type that Jesus made is a sufficiently serious sin that it places a person in danger of going to Hell.

    now about the crescent moon symbol....

    The early Muslim community did not really have a symbol. During the time of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), Islamic armies and caravans flew simple solid-colored flags (generally black, green, or white) for identification purposes. In later generations, the Muslim leaders continued to use a simple black, white, or green flag with no markings, writing, or symbolism on it.

    It wasn't until the Ottoman Empire that the crescent moon and star became affiliated with the Muslim world. When the Turks conquered Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453, they adopted the city's existing flag and symbol, the star and moon.

    now why do the RCC and every other christian group worship on sunday? well here is your answer

    1 Corinthians 16:1-2
    Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

    some Christians believe the early church began meeting on Sundays soon after Christ rose from the dead, in honor of the Lord's resurrection, which took place on a Sunday, or the first day of the week. This verse has Paul instructing the churches to meet together on the first day of the week (Sunday) to give offerings:
    1 Corinthians 16:1-2
    Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.
    And when Paul met with believers in Troas to worship and celebrate communion, they gathered on the first day of the week:
    Acts 20:7
    On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

    well hope you actually take the time to read all this. you would if you actually cared.

    and dont try to scare me with repentance and hell. i dont believe that stuff is real. you might as well threaten me with a lightning bolt from zeus.

  582. robertallen1

    I'm impressed. You're really up on your kooks!

    But asking biblelover to think is like asking leghorns to lay square eggs.

  583. robertallen1

    This can't be you writing with all the typos. I know it's satan and I understand.

  584. biblelover

    Jesus diciples didnt wash their wands and it wasnt a sin.Thats a tradition from the talmud not the toroh.And Jesus healedon the sabbah,but why not you look at the reference to it.Did not David eat the showbread and yet was blameless.Furthermore Jesus was crucified on passover and the next day was a high sabbath of unleavned bread,then on Friday they purchased spices and then rested according to the cammandment and the when they went to the tomb on the first day of the week he was risen.1 cor.16:1,2 is just about the collection,the church worshipped and read from the bookof Moses on the 7th day,the Sabbabth.I Another thing the NIV was revised by the jesuits to deceive because the true Bible KJV came from the original greek seputatiat and original Hebrew manuscripts and they expose the RCC and all their sins.Furthermore,Muhummid(curse be upon)was a pedophille and a terriost and is nothing more than a mere man.Why would you even say peace upon him when you agree he is a pedophille.

  585. Epicurus

    because i knew it would bother you.

    you are making excuses that you dont back up. they are just YOUR interpretations, actual scholars disagree with you.

    but you can just claim its all a conspiracy and therefore anything you say is unverifiable.

    if only you spent as much time reading science as you do all this junk.

  586. biblelover

    You can trust you"re science.I do not care what the scholars say.They are not told the whole truth.Anyways I am tired of arguing with you.You also do not know the whole truth.In my opinion.But I must admit you are smart.

  587. Richard Shannon

    My father recently got remarried, and he decided to visit the Creationism Museum in Kentucky for his honeymoon (I know, how romantic!).

    The point being, I stopped trying to have these conversations with him years ago because they are absolutely pointless. Best of luck to you guys, but find a more difficult target, this one is too easy.

    (Hint to Biblelover) If you want to best these guys in an argument, get back to the documentary we are supposed to be commenting on. It is such a big pile of garbage, you can make anybody look like a fool who tries to use its contents to attack Christianity.

  588. oddsrhuge

    and on and on and on it goes.....till we die. And then? Heaven, hell, limbo, a heaven with quotas? Maybe we will have virgins and be able to sit beside a deity? Maybe we will be left in the middle of a go-cart track, or an abandoned airport"? maybe we will just be absorbed into the "ether".

    Give it up, you all this life.

    Lets stop living for the afterlife....or is that too radical?

  589. Richard Shannon

    Great advice! Thank the Lord I made that discovery years ago.

  590. His Forever

    Biblelover: "moderation" is when a message has a cuss word in it or a weblink and it has to go to Vlatko or one of the other moderators for approval. It's in "moderation" and they usually pass it, but not always.

  591. His Forever

    Biblelover: The theory of everything is a term I borrowed from Steven Hawkings, or at least one of his documentaries. You can word search "Charles theory of everything" and you'll find one of two posts where I have posted it. Don't be discouraged in the process of learning. The pre-Ademite race/world is just a "theory" and is not plainly stated in the scriptures. I do believe it's sound, but don't let it confuse you. When in doubt, let God work it out.


    Charles B.

  592. His Forever

    Epic, I don't know about Biblelvoer, but I read every word. Well thought out if not entirely accurate about the "sins" of Jesus.

    God is the one counts what is "sin" and what is not, so ultimately, it's not our opinion of Jesus that counts, but God's. Part of what Jesus was saying was the rules and regulations of the Pharisees weren't very fair, you see! Anyway, all of Christianity hindges on a sinless Christ and his atonement for us on the Cross--all is worthless and we're all lost if such was not the case.

  593. His Forever

    Mr. Razor: Anyone can make a hamburger between two slices of bread, but there's only one Bigmac! Haven't had one for years, but I know they still exist somewhere!

  594. His Forever

    Ok, Az. I was hoping you'd ask for prayer. It's more effective when people ask for it, I think.

    My son wants to watch dinosaurs eating people, so I got to cut my chat reading short. ;-)

  595. Achems_Razor

    Charles, you said "when in doubt let god work it out".

    To me that is an asinine comment, where would the human race be if everyone followed that lead?

    I have heard that remark before in old movies about the dark ages when the asinine religions held sway.

    By that remark of yours means that you do not take action on any of your doubts whether life threatening or not, that shows mental puerility on your behalf!

  596. robertallen1

    "I don't care what scholars say." That's why you don't respond directly to Epicurus' factual and well-written refutations.

    You are indeed the Prince of Darkness.

  597. robertallen1

    In other words, without your fairy tale, you're lost.

  598. robertallen1

    What does this have to do with Achems_Razor's post?

  599. robertallen1

    A man with the mental development of a child.

  600. His Forever

    Razor: You commented:

    "Charles, you said "when in doubt let God work it out".

    To me that is an asinine comment, where would the human race be if everyone followed that lead?"

    The world would be in a much better shape than it is in now. To trust the character and wisdom of God above your own is by far more wise than wallowing in your own doubts or misconceptions perpetually. Nearly everyone Jesus commended in the New Testament were commended for their "faith," and faith that was active and intelligent, not mentally puerile. By the way, I corrected your capitalization in my quote. Rarely if ever would I forget the capital "G". You're welcome.

    Peace to you,

    Charles B.

  601. robertallen1

    All you do is quote scripture of which you have only a limited knowledge to justify your boeotian asseverations.

    In your view which you project onto Jesus(whoever he was and whatever his name), a person is not whole unless he accepts what you want him to on its face.

    By your many examples throughout your posts, you have clearly demonstrated faith to be fraudulent, unintelligent and puerile (puerilitive--you obviously need more special education).

  602. Epicurus

    so you are saying morality is subjective?

    if god is able to do anything he wants then jesus didnt NEED to be sinless. there was no NEED for anything essentially.

  603. Epicurus

    why cant you trust science?

    you know all the medicine you use, this computer you use, every luxury and comfort in your life is the result of science.

  604. His Forever

    Epic: God's morality is NOT subjective, but it's very possible for people to pigeon-hole God (or anyone else for that matter) with word-play and samatics. The Bible says to love the Lord your God will all year heart and soul and mind, and then to love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hinge all the law and the prophets. Jesus did this perfectly in His lifetime.

    Essentially, the only people that habitually tried to pin any type of sin on Jesus were the Pharisees.

    As far as sin is concerned (if by chance you really don't understand the concept), no, Jesus couldn't have done anything He wanted to do and still be pleasing to God--He had to have remained "sinless" by God's standard (and not just ours). The Christian word "atonement" means to pay a price for a wrong done. Only a sinless Christ could meet the criteria for God's standard of holiness and justice. If you want further explination, I'll have to work on it tomorrow.

    Peace to you,

    Charles B.

  605. Epicurus

    How is gods morality not subjective?

    Exodus 21:20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
    21:21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

    so is slavery okay now or just then?

    and you cant say that is the old testament so lets take a look at Ephesians:

    6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
    6:6 Not with eye service, as men pleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

    what about in kings when god sends the bears to kill the children for name calling his prophet?

    what about when it was commanded by god to murder your children if they speak back?

    if you say he doesnt STILL think those things should be done then he is subjectively changing morality.

    take the Euthyphro Dilemma for example. Plato wrote this as a conversation by Socrates. LOOOONG time ago (before christ)

    In short, it consists of asking “where do moral standards come from ?”. Either answer to this question is fatal for the theistic position. Here is a formalization of the argument.

    1) Either:
    A) The Good is willed by God because it is the Good.

    B) The Good is the Good because it is willed by God.

    1) If (1a) is true, then the Good is independent of God’s will.

    2) If (2) is true, then God did not create the Good, and is not Creator.

    3) If (1b) is true, then the Good is contingent and subjective (to God’s will).

    4) If (4) is true, then there is no objective standard of morality, and the absolute of value-selection is false.

    God does not exist. (from 1, 3 and 5)

    There is little need for expansion of this argument, because it is a variant of Materialist Apologetics. Frame’s answer – that the Good is an invariant part of God’s nature – is refuted there. In the specific case of the Dilemma, there is no middle ground – either God is the origin of moral principles, or it isn’t. If morality is an inherent property, then it is not chosen by God, and therefore falls on the second horn of the dilemma. Good already existed, and God is not the Creator of morality. In fact, God, in this scenario, is wholly irrelevant to the existence of morality.

    Jesus did NOT act perfectly. what about the poor Canaanite woman he made beg for his help. he wasnt going to help her until his followers gave him s*** for it.

    Matthew 15:21-28

    Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."
    Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."

    He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

    The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.

    He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

    "Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

    Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

    so he wasnt going to help her unless she begged? thats pathetic. if he was truly caring and sinless he would help anyone regardless. even Ghandi knew that

  606. robertallen1

    Very learned, but over C_and_N's head.

  607. robertallen1

    @Epicurus and Achems_Razor

    I'm curious. Have you read any of Bart Ehrman's books and if so, what do you think?

  608. Epicurus

    you know, i have Jesus Interrupted and Misquoting Jesus in book form and every other one of his books in pdf format...if anyone wants any of them just ask. i have so many great books in pdf format

    but i have yet to read them lol. i stopped reading the christianity stuff and am presently reading things more in line with my studies.

  609. robertallen1

    I have read both volumes as well as a few others by him and have been continually impressed. I heartily recommend them.

  610. Guest

    I'd sure like to have Jesus, Interrupted, if you're sure it's not too much trouble.

  611. Epicurus

    check your email. should be there now.

  612. Achems_Razor

    Epic, I have not even heard of Ehrman before, but have pulled up his website, he has some vids on utube, can you also email me Jesus Interrupted, need fuel for the fire to combat the religee's lol. Thanks

  613. biblelover

    Epic-I can trust science-but to a point.You know that machines break down after a while-right.So science is reliable even if just 99.9 per cent of the time. Peace to you.

  614. Epicurus

    there you go, check your email.

  615. biblelover

    All you do is call me names-which are"nt true anyways,so I refuse to respond to you anymore.Sounds like a case of hate in the heart if you ask me.Peace and blessings to you.

  616. Epicurus

    but that is more reliable than anything else has shown to be.

    what great things has religion given us?

    now look around at everything you have. look at all your comforts. look at all the older people you know and love. look at how many children you have known and loved through your life. all those things are possible due to the advancements of science and the scientific method of understanding our world.

    before science, and today in places with little scientific knowledge, we had/have very low life expectancy and high infant mortality rates.

  617. robertallen1

    You have a real treat in store, but I would advise that you start off with Misquoting Jesus.

  618. robertallen1

    You're right. I hate you from the bottom of my heart, Prince of Darkness.

  619. biblelover

    Thanks for letting me know what moderation.The truth is extreme,to be moderate is to compromise-one of my favorite sayings.I hope you enjoyed you"re Christmas Party,I dont do Christmas myself because its Nimrods birthday,the son of Ham,I believe>PEACE AND BLESSINGS to you.

  620. robertallen1

    You're right as usual.

    The Inquisition was a real treat, the burning of witches and heretics more fun than a Boy Scout campfire and don't forget that great catered affair known as the Crusades, especially the Children's Crusade, if you're in to that.

  621. biblelover

    Yes you are so right,science has given me comforts and medicine also plays a important part.Now you mentioned love.Can you see that,its not tangible yet you know its real.Same as God and the Spirit,you can not see it but its real.The invisible made all things visible and invisible.You can see the results when you look at the night sky.Big dipper,small dipper-all the constellations,don't you wonder to you re self that maybe an intelligent supernatural being could have commanded this into being.The universe goes on forever,same as our loving creator.He was,is,and is to come.Peace and Blessings to you.

  622. robertallen1

    There's no way to prove or disprove your last statement; therefore, it is unscientific and not worth the thought.

  623. Guest

    When you get a chance, send me Misquoting Jesus, as well, would you, please?
    And thanks again.

  624. biblelover

    Jesus had no sin.When he was addressing the Pharisees,what he was saying is that you pay attention to man-made traditions such as washing you"re hands,you wash the outside of the cup(in other words whitewash)but the inside of the cup is full of dead men"s bones.Also it is not you eat that defiles you,goes through the stomach and the is eliminated,Its what comes out of you"re mouth that defiles you because in the heart is where you"re treasure is or in this case the pharisees,dead men"s bones,hate,adulteries,etc.Peace and Blessings.

  625. robertallen1

    Throughout your posts, I note that quite often you have trouble getting your words to cohere. Are you training yourself to speak in tongues?

  626. His Forever

    I came to the same conclusion last night, Biblelover. I'm boycotting Mr. Allen entirely. He lost lost my respect a long time ago. You can argue your point without being demeaning and vile and personal in your attacks.

  627. His Forever

    Biblelover: The Christamas party was terrible. Most dissappointed I've been in a long time.

    Anyway, I would suggest you upload an icon form your pictures. Both your penname and no pic makes you seem more "dismissable" I think. I picture that suits your personality would be better.

  628. biblelover

    lol,No I am just learning how to use this piece of scientific machinery.No,I do not speak in tongues,the Lord hasn't given me that gift.

  629. His Forever

    So, Epicurus, this is a serious question: What would it take for you to change your mind and believe there is a God? Be specific if you don't mind. Would it need to be a personal encounter, or what would you deem as acceptable proof of God's existence?

    Peace to you,

    Charles B.

  630. biblelover

    Thanks I"ll get an icon as soon as my friend comes back.Anyways maybe the Lord was telling you something.I stopped everything and anything about Christmas.Christmas and Easter both are pagan Sun worship holidays.I explained to my loved ones that just because everyone else is doing doesn't make it right. Exodus 23:2
    Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil;neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment.Peace and blessings to you and you"re loved ones.

  631. His Forever

    I would be interested also in the books you mentioned, if you don't mind. If you do send me something by e-mal, mark it well from "Epicurus", so it won't be deleted as junkmail. Thanks.

  632. Achems_Razor

    Charles, your Xmas party was terrible? that's what happens when there is no sex, drugs and rock and roll! lol

    Was there at least some kind of party, like dancing to the latest beat and modern stuff like that, or was it just boring religee stuff?

  633. Epicurus

    a personal encounter or irrefutable evidence like finding a woman turned to a pillar of salt.

    the best evidence would be if he appeared in the sky at the same time to everyone with the same message. that way it could be verified.

  634. His Forever


    My wife is upset that I was complaining so much, but boy was I disappointed!

  635. robertallen1

    And what would it take to convince you that the Bible is no more than the secular word of man?

  636. biblelover

    Yes,I understand now.If you do not have concrete evidence,You just wont believe it.Actually I don't know what to say.I have a feeling you're high intelligence may be hindering your ability to believe,I not sure what it is.I know faith comes by hearing the words of God.Who knows maybe you're turned off by all the religions out there.I remember when I kid,I wondered who was telling the truth with all those religions out there.I settled on what my grandmother was telling me,after all she wouldn't lie to me.Later I realizied that we inherited lies from our forefathers.If your searching for truth the great God will meet you half way.My friend prayed for 2 years on his knees until God showed up by the Holy Spirit.The thing is God just is.You cant go anywhere where God isn't.I suggest you look inside yourself.The Pharisees were religious,this isn't about religion.Its about keeping Gods commandments and love for Jesus.First you have to believe he is.I suggest a prayer to help me with my unbelief.
    Also,there is misery out there.God has competion,the Devil.I suppose you dont believe there a spirtual dimension,period.You see there is sin and death in the world because of AdamEves disobedience.I know-you dont believe that either.Sometimes the truth is just simple.Opposite of falseness,thats all.Good vs Evil.
    Period.A cosmic war,spiritual battle.But the Good wins in the end.Peace be to you.

  637. robertallen1

    Ever seen the movie "The Next Voice You Hear?"

    To me, the best evidence would be if he turned Kim Kardashian, Lindsay Lohan, Paris Hilton and into a pillars of salt.

  638. Guest

    Did you ever read the great 'Childhood's End,' by Clarke? That's pretty much precisely what happens; though, in the end, with not anything like the appearance most would've preferred, lol.

  639. robertallen1

    Now, if you were a Catholic, there's always bingo.

  640. robertallen1

    High intelligence always hinders the ability to believe without evidence. That's what's so good about it. Now, what's your excuse?

  641. robertallen1

    That's all right. You're not the only one who reads these posts.

  642. biblelover

    What is sin anyways? Lets go to scripture for a definition instead of mans interpretation:1 John 3:4Whosoever commits sin transgresses
    also the law:for sin is the transgression of the law.Peace be to you.

  643. biblelover

    My excuse is that I love the truth and was searching for it for a long time.Think of it,where do you go for truth,the mainstream media,The pressitutes are owned by big corp,therefore they are told what to say and show as news,its not the real truth.Its what the Rothchilds,Rocerfellears tell you as truth.How about Congress,they are all infiltrated by the Jesuits,they want a New World Order.The Pope recently said he wants a World Bank-Can you believe him.Truths are mixed with half-truths.How about our leaders,The Bushs for starts,Prescott Bush wasm selling arms to Hitler.They fund both sides of the war because its profitable,the charge interest on it.Guess who pays-you and you"re kids and they"re kids.How about the federal reverse.Owned by the Rothchilds,Rockerfellas,and JP Morgan.Private.Nothing federal about it.Print money out of then air:Who pays for that=we do and our children and thier children if the world lasts that long.How about HAARP,a weather machine
    causing all these hurricanes,earthquakes and droughts.Conspiracy.Remember what J.F.Kennedy said:There is a conspiracy so monstrous one can hardly belive it.How about all these secret societies,of which G.W.Bush attended at Yale.Will they tell you the truth.Remember Kennedy talked about secret societies and he was the last good president and it got him shot.He wanted to dismantle the CIA,they had secrets that needed to be hid so guess what ,they shot him.Yes there is evil in high places-you bet.the sins stink to high heaven ,and if there is evil there is an opposite.Law of phisics.What goes up must come down.Hate vs love and love wins,and we are accountable for our actions.Sometimes unbelieve is an excuse so we dont
    have to be accountable.But we are.There is a rightous judge.God is patient
    with unbelievers 11 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his
    promise;as some men count slackness;but is longsuffering to usward,not
    willing that any should perish,but that all should come to repentance.Peace
    be with you.

  644. Richard Shannon

    Wouldn't you think that this would be more likely due to an alien having fun with us, than a supreme being?

  645. Achems_Razor

    Charles, what it would take for me to change my mind and believe there was a god is to win a major lottery and have "Lady Gaga" crazy about me and be my sex slave.

    Not to much to ask, right?

  646. Achems_Razor


    What?? "Lets go to scripture for a definition instead of mans interpretation:"??

    Who in the hell do you think wrote the bible if it was not man? Your gods put pen to paper? That is a very "boeotian assertion! Which means st00pid.

  647. His Forever

    Razor:  I'm not so gaga over Gaga!  I guess what I would need to change my mind would be a fossil record without the missing links (which should be millions) from bacteria to humans without an interrupted line of said fossils, and THEN  no answered prayers of any kind by anyone, no miracles for anyone, and THEN  irrefutable proof the Bible was a hoax of some kind rather than the rock solid Word of God that it is.  Not to much to ask, is it?
    P.S.  Last year Vlatko answered my questions about missing likes with the idea that fossils are exceedingly rare, and it's more a wonder that any have survived, and therefore the  many missing links just didn't with the lottery and make it into the fossil record.  I understand.  I just disagree.
    Peace to All

    Charles B.


  648. robertallen1

    You and others like you demand blind acceptance while Epicurus demands proof and thus has a far better chance of arriving at the "truth" than you, together with all your drivel of which we see an example in this post.

  649. His Forever

    Robert: Now, that was actually pretty funny--that and our three finest turned into pillars of salt!

  650. robertallen1

    Again, you reveal your ignorance of evolution. If you would read up on the topic (and I don't mean on some ignorant creationist website) you would realize that there is no such thing as a "missing link", much less a vast amount of them, and that archaeological finds contribute relatively little tothe general evolutionary picture (there's also biology, chemistry, physics, geology).

    Unlike you and your ilk, scientists do not expect to be taken on blind faith, but rather on hard evidence coupled with deduction. Unlike whatever it is you practice, they welcome intelligent discussion because their discipline allows for and encourages it, whereas yours doesn't.

    A good example of this is: "The Bible is the rock solid word of god." As Epicurus and others have tried to drum it into your head, the only proof you have offered is your assertion which is really no proof at all and positing this betrays an ignorance of biblical history and scholarship even deeper than your ignorance of evolution and many others areas of knowledge which have been highlighted by various posters.

    If god is omniscient, there is no need for prayer, for he should already know what you want without having to be asked for it. As Epicurus and others have tried to inculcate into you, this cause and effect relationship between prayer and result which you keep harping on is specious at best.

    You back up ( because you can't prove) most of your contentions with ignorant, self-serving boeotian assertions which always, judging from the various posts, seem to come back to haunt you.

    So much for your way of "thinking."

  651. Epicurus

    that would be a possibility, but given the information i had i would have to take the superior beings word for it. but you are right that thought would come into my mind.

  652. Epicurus

    charles....if we had pictures of you when you were 2 and then no pictures until you were 10, then no pictures until you were 40 would you say that there is no way that 2 year old gradually changed into that 40 year old?

    what if i listed off all the hominid fossils we have found?

    Homo habilis
    Homo rudolfensis
    Homo ergaster
    Homo georgicus
    Homo erectus
    Homo cepranensis
    Homo antecessor
    Homo heidelbergensis
    Homo rhodesiensis
    Homo neanderthalensis
    Homo sapiens
    Homo sapiens idaltu
    Archaic Homo sapiens (cro-magnon)
    Homo floresiensis

    those hominid fossils show perfect change from an apelike ancestor to a more human one. first we saw the evolution towards bipedalism, and then with the hominids here we started to see encephalization, which is the brain getting larger. these fossils show a beautiful transition from chimp-like apes to a more human one.

    what would be the point of god making all this? why did he try to confuse us with all these fossils charles?

    i know you are smart. i know deep down you understand and accept what i have been telling you the past year or so. but you have so much vested interest in your belief you wont let it go.

  653. yallcomebacknowuhear

    Does anyone else find it ironic that the Edinburgh scientists have named their new subatomic particle the "God particle"? Strange how they don't believe in God yet they recognize he is the one who created these particles to begin with. Makes them seem to be a hypocrite, don't you think?

  654. biblelover

    The Bible is Gods word written by his servants,the prophets,inspired by the Holy Spirit.Of course you don't understand this,so there is not much I can say to you to convince you otherwise.God gave us a freewill so what you do with it is up to you.Me I choose to serve my God.And I am happy to do so.Peace to you.

  655. robertallen1

    There's a fine article on the god particle in Wikipedia which, among other things, details how it got its name. Why didn't you read it or something like it before writing your post?

  656. robertallen1

    The prophets? Inspired by the Holy Spirit? If you would read up on the history of the Bible and delved somewhat into biblical scholarship (which I know you won't because you would rather remain ignorant and voluble) you might save yourself the embarassment of such ludicrous statements.

  657. yallcomebacknowuhear

    Why don't you read the Bible before posting all of your hateful comments? Are you the evil spirit that the Bible warns people of ? Besides in case you aren't aware of it Wikipedia is only as knowledgeable as the last person to update it. You should rely on a real encyclopedia instead of what someone else has posted as the "facts".
    I believe somewhere in the Bible it warns of evil demon spirits put here on earth to try and make those who believe in God question their own belief. Perhaps that is your calling in life ?
    By the way if you hate religion so much then why are you always posting on a documentary about the Bible ? Isn't there a Darwin documentary that would better suit your non-belief system rather than spout awful unwarranted comments to those who have a belief system ? Just because you lead an unfulfilled life of sadness and loneliness doesn't mean everyone else has to. But then again satan may get mad at you if you were to give up on changing the minds of the followers of Jesus Christ. (you know your enemy) I bet that's it, huh ?
    Well as a Christian would say," Bless your little heart" !!

  658. biblelover

    Whatever,I am tired of arguing with you.The Holy Spirit helps me understand,the Bible is my counsel of God,and I certainly don't need anything a mere man can teach in a Bible School.The Lord provides it all in his Word.Peace ,

  659. robertallen1

    You as an adult believe in evil spirits. Obviously, your mental maturation did not keep pace with your physical growth.

    "Wikipedia is only as knowledgeable as the last person to update it." Well, so is any work, including the Bible!

    Who are you to say that I "lead an unfulfilled life of sadness and loneliness" or is such a conclusion based on your religious indoctrination.

    Who are you to dictate where I or anyone else should be posting or is this also based on your religious indoctrination?

    If your post is any indication, your so-called belief system is nothing more than a paper shield and a specious justification for your voluntary ignorance--in short, it's a pernicious abortion of thought and as such a dangerous abomination.

    P.S. Not only have I read the Bible, but I've also read of its history and the times in which it was produced. This is probably more than you've ever done or wanted to do.

  660. robertallen1

    Whether you accept it or not, the Bible is the teachings of mere men and nothing else.

    You spend so much energy justifying your voluntary ignorance--it won't wash.

  661. Epicurus

    no not at all. they named it as such to make it appealing to the masses.

    it is just a title. you dont need to look so deeply into it.

  662. Guest

    This could be one guy's reality if not yours. Your reality may be someone's dream, doesn't make it unreachable for the right person.
    We are powerful being when we KNOW something is for us. Obviously Lady Gaga is not for you....a sex slave on the other hand...

  663. Guest

    Your second phrase is kind of funny to if a personal appearance would not be enough for would want people next to you to see it too so they can tell you really saw it. It makes me think that if an appearance was to happen to would never utter a word about it for fear of being ridiculed by your peers...on peer reviewed!
    What about a woman turning into pure energy in your hand....does that count?


  664. Achems_Razor


    The only thing that inspired your prophets was the ingesting of magic mushrooms, Amanita Muscaria, Psilocybin and such, and the prophets drinking the urine of the ones who ingested the magic mushrooms, all that gave religious epiphanies to your so called prophets, but of course you would not have a clue to what I am referring to.

  665. Epicurus

    well i can see how you would view it that way however its not out of fear of being ridiculed but i would want verification because having done many hallucinogens and having a little brother with schizophrenia and working in psychology with people with schizophrenia, I know that just because I have seen it doesnt mean it is there. I need more than just my own senses verification because there are many ways my senses can be fooled.

    when i was 6 years old i had a personal experience on christmas eve where i swear i saw (what i believed) to be santa clause in his sleigh. I can still remember the feeling of how sure i was. i can also vaguely remember the image i saw in the sky. I know now with a more critical mind that it was most likely a satellite, however we cant always trust our senses and initial judgement. there is much subjectivity that comes into play.

    if a woman turned into pure energy in my hand i would be very worried if people knew i was the last person she was seen with....i wouldnt want to be the main suspect in a missing persons

  666. yallcomebacknowuhear

    I can't help but notice that you didn't deny being evil and spreading your mean spirited babbling. Blah Blah Blah...
    One would only assume that all that negative energy you seem to possess within yourself, that you are a very unhappy human. Surely anyone who reads your comments would be more apt to see this in you. I'm sure others feel the same misery coming out of your persona as I do. The only ones who'll disagree are probably the same ones who side with you on your hatred of all that is good on earth. You all dislike anyone being happy no matter how they came to be that way. It is a sure sign of jealousy. You are jealous that we can be happy and live peaceful lives and you are left in your own torment brought on from your little pea brain that you seem to somehow keep from exploding from being so conceited. I bet your head is hurting right now. I wish you all the best that life has to offer, although with your attitude I doubt you'll be able to enjoy it if you get it.
    Remember there is always time to repent. That is till that very last second of your life, and death(another name for the devil) is staring you right in the eye and you see the fires burning behind him and you realize "Oh my God"!(I wonder if you mean God our Heavenly Father or the god of death and destruction, the evil serpent) That ,sir, is when you'll look back and wish you had been more Godly. God is the only one who can and will judge you, I on the other hand have the right of discernment. You are a very troubled soul. I hope you can come to terms with that scientific fact and see if they can cure you. Because I'm tired of "Casting my pearls before swines" little piggy. There has already been enough seeds thrown on you that it is clear your dirt is used up and worthless and nothing of beauty will ever grow there.

  667. robertallen1

    No, it's garbage like you that's mean-spirited--preaching that unless people accept Jesus as their savior on blind faith or repent, they are either damned or inferior--and not only that, but leading people on to fight wars and conduct inquisitions and witch hunts over pathetically silly concepts.

    Why anyone with any intelligence should be jealous of a superstitious nitwit like you and those whom you feel a part of is beyond me. I would rather be unhappy in knowledge than happy in ignorance.

    Whatever's good in earth you're certainly not part of.

  668. Epicurus

    the fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. - George Bernard Shaw

    actually what it sounds like to me is that you are trying to convince that you are happy and that Robert is unhappy. it seems that you are just as guilty as trying to throw insults. your insults just come off more passive aggressive. but they are still insults all the same. so based on your own logic does that mean that you are unhappy at the possibility that Robert might be able to be happy without a god?

  669. robertallen1

    I hadn't thought about it that way, but you have a point--and I mean in the abstract and not to be self-serving.

  670. oddsrhuge

    I personally like the analogy of an "Office temp, with a BAD attitude."

    Maybe Heaven is a Cosmic IRS? It can't all be run by just one guy or gal. There has to be typing pool.

  671. over the edge

    lol you and others call people the devil (in your mind the worst thing you can call somebody) and say if that person doesn't deny all logic and evidence and believe the exact same as you do , they will burn forever. but the ones that don't think as you do are hateful? no you are wrong i personally don't care what you believe only what you can prove. i would have a drink with Robert, Epicurus or Achems anytime and we would have more fun and less hate, judgement and fear than the other side of the debate

  672. Guest

    What, like angels ? :)

  673. oddsrhuge

    The "angels" of section 92...IE: the "typing pool". Sure...I will advance this theory.

    Somebody "prove" me wrong.

  674. oddsrhuge

    Wouldn't it make sense that if "God" created us all in his "own" image. That he would also expect us to create Associations, societies and depatments like his own?



  675. oddsrhuge

    I forgot though....apparently "God" didn't create Muslims. They must have been now we're back to the Alien thing.

    I'm so confused.

  676. oddsrhuge

    God created “sentient beings”. Otherwise, we could all be like dogs and smell one another's butts with impunity. THAT was his first mistake. (Leaving “pot” growing everywhere was his second)

    But God is I’m REALLY confused....therefore, it must be the devil? Is he like the banker that god has to go to, to get a loan for a miracle?

  677. biblelover

    You are mistaken about something.The christian s were the ones who were burned at the stake,for crimes such as owning a Bible or saying the Lords prayer in English.Joan of Arc was burned at the stake as a witch,she brought France out of the English's control and that's the thanks she got.She had visions from God and guess who persecuted her.The Catholic Bishops gave her over to the English.Furthermore the Crusaders were Catholics who are not christian s.Anyone can say they are a christian,but that's not what makes one.Get your historical facts right at least..

  678. biblelover

    I agree. he has not got a clue.God gave us a freewill and He honors
    that.God is a gentleman,besides you cant force someone to love God.

  679. robertallen1

    As usual, you fail to get the facts straight. Catholics and Christians are Christians (or believers in Christ), as are Methodists, Episcopalians, Quakers and Shakers, whether you regard them as such or not.

    So much ignorance and idiocy rolled into one.

  680. Achems_Razor


    Your god is a gentleman?? Your god is a Ho, and a voyeur, a peeping Tom, since your He, She, It, is in all the nations bedrooms! Getting His, Hers, Its, jollies. Omnipresent Hmm?

  681. robertallen1

    Don't you think it would be fun to imprison his god for child molestation?

  682. Achems_Razor

    I think his gods would be to slippery to catch, since his gods are omnipresent they probably sneak around in the middle of the night. Or maybe his gods are the devils and demons, he might be beckoning the legends of hell.

    Since he seems so unhinged, you never know.

  683. Epicurus

    Joan of Arc had schizophrenia or at least temporal lobe epilepsy

  684. robertallen1

    Actually, as I understand it, tinnitis. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

  685. Epicurus

    i would disagree just because that doesnt usually sound like voices.

  686. robertallen1

    I know this is a minor point (the type I like to make), but Joan could have confounded the ringing caused by tinnitis with voices--of course, in the end, who knows. It's as factually-based as a biblical episode.

  687. biblelover

    What does Scripture say on the matter?I getting the idea more and more that you are either a Jesuit who gets paid
    to do this,all the hate from the bottom of you"re heart and misleading you are doing.You sure would be doing this from the bottom of you"re heart for nothing,or you are a demon because you seem to know Scripture,posing as a atheist. In any event demons believe and tremble.I"m not the judge I'm just saying.You"re the one that doesn"t have the facts.I know enough history to know the RCC were behind the inquistion and the crusades under the guise of the templars.This is a Fact Mr.Jesuit.If the Catholics(I dont mean the deceived believers who bow down to the queen of heaven,Venus,Oh they call her Mary or fatima,Thats the second commandment they are breaking plus the fourth one (Remember the 7th day and keep it Holy)What does scipture say Mr.Jesuit,Mat.5:17,Think not that I came to destoy the law,or the prophets;I am not come to destroy,but to fulfil.Mat.7:21 Not every one that saith unto me,Lode,Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven,but he that doeth the will of my father which is in heaven.Is.:8:20 To the law and the testimony if they do not speak according to this law there is no light in them.
    Rev.22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments,that they may have the right to the tree of life,and may enter into through then gates into the city.You see Mr.Jesuit,its not what you think is a christian its what God thinks thats important.Was,is and is to come,Come Yeshea, come.Furthourmore ,ther are some christians caught in these4 apostate churches,come out of Babylon lest you share in her plagues for her sins have reached to
    heaven.Peace to you mr.Jesuit

  688. Richard Shannon

    I'd like to posit a conditional question. Were Biblelover's ideas of religion, Christianity, God, The Trinity, The Catholic Church, Muslims, etc. etc. etc. all true and confirmed to you beyond any doubt whatsoever in whatever way were necessary, would you actually change your tune and start to worship and adore his version of the Christian God?

    Personally, I would still find him too much of a narcissist and wierdo (God that is, Biblelover doesn't seem overly narcissistic to me), but I might give him a quick "thanks for the ride".

  689. over the edge

    @Richard Shannon
    if that were to happen then i would have no choice but to accept it. but i am not sure i could worship somebody who is so vain, hateful and dishonest. i would think that if god existed then what was "in my heart" would be obvious to him/her/it and any worship would be lip service. kind of like how people show "respect" to the local crime boss out of fear.

  690. Guest

    Your supposed to be confused :)

  691. Craig Holsey

    anything with finkelstein in it is not credible

  692. Guest

    Until you're really committed to one, of course!

  693. Craig Holsey

    now why don't you guys do a doc. called "unearthing the Book of Mormon"
    then we all would be amazed ! at all the the the red dots on your forehead
    from laser gun sights the richest church of man would have you killed because there nothing to find ! it's like the higgs bozon ! it's all church of man and has nothing to do with truth

  694. Guest

    Oh then it all makes perfect sense :/

  695. His Forever

    I haven't fully figured out God's intentions for such, yet, Epic. He isn't trying to confuse anyone. But I suspect from past reading that some of these were co-existing at the same time. You aren't proposing a direct ancestoral link here, are you? Most evolutionists would backpeddle a bit and say that these are only evolutionary "branches" but not actually ancestors of eachother. I think that Cro-Magnon Man was fully human, wasn't he? I'll cut and paste and look up each one later. Thanks for the list.

    Charles B.

  696. Richard Shannon

    The documentary is much worse than the book. In fact a review of the book in Biblical Archeological Review referred to Mr. Finkelstein as "idiosyncratic and doctrinaire", and if he had anything to do with this documentary, I must agree 10-fold.

  697. David Rice

    This is humor at its finest...

  698. David Rice

    There is something very humorous about these posts you make C_and_N... Maybe it is just me..

  699. oddsrhuge

    I love labels...In fact in my "next" life I want to be in charge of the "sticker" department. Then I can coin and print the bumper stickers:


    My favourites, however, would include those, never cited in this type of argument. Like:

    Open Minds
    Peace (for peace's sake...not because all your enemies are dead)

    I guess in "my perfect world" nobody uses a label to oppress another group or individual.

    Sorry, obviously I am not taking my meds again.

  700. oddsrhuge

    I have to insert a comment on your stance toward "faith, belief"?

    You have a single opinion that doesn't allow any debate, within your own "idiom".

    The fact that I agree with a lot of your comments in this regard would mean that, once again, I too, close my mind to any other person's take on reality.

    We have to evolve beyond these restraints. This is MY struggle.

    Acceptance, that not everyone, thinks that my opinion, is the WORD OF know, that guy who was born and died and came back and made wine from fishes...oops I mean water....I'm sure there were fishes in there somewhere...and virgins....lotso virgins...talking snakes too, and whales who swallowed people, and boats with every species of animal on them, and chariots in the sky....never mind. I must go read my bible again.

    Still, it's not going away, in fact NOW the mainstream is talking about how all the GOP candidates are appealing to the Evangelical crowd.

    Good thing that separation of Church and State was a quaint little suggestion from history. Also, don't forget that, the American Constitution was created by Bible thumping, God fearers....(not a word, I know) And why do they "fear" him, again"?

    Ah, never mind. I guess I am equally inflexible, in this regard.

  701. robertallen1

    You need to bone up on your American history. The main creators of the Constitution, Jefferson, Franklin, etc. were deists, not Bible-thumping God fearers.

  702. sodafuzz


  703. biblelover

    You are deceived.Period.Do not E-mail me anymore please because it is you who is not real.

  704. oddsrhuge

    You know, if you are going to reply to my comments, please try to understand them first. I was being sarcastic.

  705. robertallen1

    As I've explained before, it is impossible to tell if you're being serious.

  706. robertallen1

    As I've explained before, it is impossible to tell if you're being serious.

  707. oddsrhuge

    well quite simply, for the record...I agree with most of your posts on "this" topic. And I will refrain from commenting from now on. As you seem to lack a sense of humour.

  708. Jo McKay

    Okay, this is an IMO of the documentary and some 'best rated' comments. Is this worth watching? Yes Absolutely. However, it will challenge some to stay awake and may need a few viewings as a result (this narrator truly has a calling to do meditation and sleep tapes). Honestly at first view I fell 'asleep' (more then dozed off) at least 3x; then after a full and refreshing night's rest I tried again and even though I was genuinely interested, still wanted to 'drift off' a few times! HA. I sincerely doubt the producers intended that effect.
    So, if you can stay focused, you may discover the evidence that 'writing' laws and rules of conduct (and Histories btw) were the business of Governments & Kings. The generally accepted reason that so many rulers of antiquity built huge monolithic structures or monuments to themselves,was because they knew the 'next' kings/rulers would try to wipe out any history of previous rulers; in fact wherever and whenever possible heroic stories of previous people would be 'borrowed' and written into the histories of current kings. Ever has been the case, whether in writing a history (his story- almost always his, and definitely a 'story') or building a structure to leave as a legacy... As the doc demonstrates (with 'evidence') in the 7th century BCE, increased settlement and literacy led a minor King Josiah to begin the 'writing' of religious stories. His intention seems to have been the hopes of bringing all the mixed tribes together under one heroic God, providing both a fantastic past for the history of the people and a messianic (hope filled, someday) future. It worked and for the next few hundred years, other kings added and edited what by about 300 BCE would become the Judaic bible. - This is not a huge surprise to scientists and theologians; it is however, the shear numbers of evidence stacked that concerns current religious leadership in how they can 'spin these kinds of findings'. The FACTS, when added to how much of history in the past 2000 years has become more accessible and transparent (though there is much still lost from book burnings and conquerors/colonialists re-writing of histories) in My (humble :) Opinion, point to the 7th Century as the beginning of Social Control through religious written text, by and for the benefit of the ruling elite.
    Without question, 'history' proves that it is much much easier to rule a people who emotionally and culturally 'belong' to a religion with a doctrine that is, and can be constantly flexible to upgraded interpretation. Rulers simply need to 'own' the preachers, then they can 'own the people'.
    Now you can know where it all started, and why?

  709. robertallen1

    I'm impressed by both your knowledge of history and your analysis.

    Precopius' two histories of Justianian are fine examples of what you have described, not to mention the parallelism between both testaments and prior works. Machiavelli writing about a thousand years later also supports your observations. As the documentary pointed out, what didn't get into the canon says a lot about the canon itself and again bolsters your thesis.

    Until I read your post, I had never regarded the 7th century as the beginning of social control through religious written text by and for the benefit of the ruling elite; however, further cogitation leads me to support your unnecessarily humble hypothesis, based on which it took the church nearly half a millennia to obtain the type of control that it did--and this makes sense.

    However--and please correct me if I'm wrong--this social control appears to have developed serotinously in England, perhaps because of its isolation (however slight) from mainland Europe. I mean, for example, that the Venerable Bede seems to have written more with an eye to objective history and apolitical theology than apologia. I would appreciate your feedback.

    Your conclusion is all too true although it doesn't say much for people in general.

    P.S. The documentary kept me awake.

  710. Jo McKay

    hmmm where to start - glad you could stay awake... better man and all that :) ... thank you for the kind words - now: are you saying 1. religious social controls did not reach England/UK until Bede's time (8th Century ACE), and 2. Bede might not have seen religion as a way to 'control' the vast unwashed 'masses' (my words there :) - Okay, I'll wade in w an opinion - first, here's a quote from the Venerable Bede hisself:
    " For if history relates good things of good men, the attentive hearer is excited to imitate that which is good; or if it mentions evil things of wicked persons, nevertheless the religious and pious hearer or reader, shunning that which is hurtful and perverse, is the more earnestly excited to perform those things which he knows to be good, and worthy of God. Of which you also being deeply sensible, are desirous that the said history should be more fully made familiar to yourself, and to those over whom the Divine Authority has appointed you governor, " - from preface of Bede to King Ceolwulph (Northumbrian King), transmitting the 'Ecclesiastical History of the English Nation'.
    Clearly (to me) Bede is playing up the Kings 'Divine' authority over his subjects and understands very well the potential of religious social control, as he happily shares it with the 'ruling elite' here.
    The Q of how late written religious text came to Europe/England is very true. Long after Constantine (Roman Emperor 306 ACE) arranged the re-writing and editing of what became the 'new testament', along w decrees of religious tolerance, as a means to solidify his rule of a truly massive kingdom, the people of England and much of Europe remained significantly illiterate and pagan (certainly many jumped onto the christian/roman band wagon, but that was just smart - they were as likely practicing their own ancient rituals) up till, I'd say the days of Persecutions, aka The Dark Ages, 10th and 11th Centuries, when the Roman empire declined. IMO (still humble) the Roman use of religious social control was child's play compared to the last 1000 years when Churches and Clerics (rather then Emperors & Kings) took over the control and use (abuse) of religious doctrine to 'advice' the people.
    The battle over whose authority informs the 'church' (temple, synagogue,mosque), and thereby the hearts and minds and bodies of the people, rages still betwixt church and state...
    I think information (like this and similar docs) when it helps folks to understand where and why it all began, perhaps will challenge us to put those doctrines where they belong (his stories) and we might move on in less divisive ways - less gullible maybe? :)
    - :) peace

  711. robertallen1

    Let me clarify: As far as I can see, religious controls of the type and intensity you describe did not reach England until shortly after Bede's demise (ca 735) which is a bit later than the enslavement of the rest of Europe--again, I might be wrong about this.

    Perhaps due to my view of Bede as a benevolent fellow, I'm wondering if the end of your quote (from Bede hisself) is merely a courteous boilerplate, a matter of form--but again, I'm not taking issue because one can ask how the boilerplate originated. However, I notice similar phrases in introductions and dedications from the Roman times, cf. Pliny the Elder's introduction to his natural history. But you've piqued my curiosity. What other English religious works do we have contemporary with Bede, do they espouse religion-based social control and if so, to what extent?

    Your comparison of the Roman use of religious social control to that later exercised by the church is on point--and there's no need for humility--the facts speak for themselves--and unfortunately continue to do so despite your conclusion to which I can only respond with the familiar quote from George Santayana, "Whoever is ignorant of history . . . "

  712. Jo McKay

    Point taken; Bede may have been writing to form in his introduction - as for his benevolence I am not so sure. When I think of those yet early days I imagine there were many 'sweet monks'- these were usually 2nd or 3rd sons of wealthy/noble families, so a) they did not suffer difficult lives to begin with, and b) some were well suited to quiet contemplative (and usually good food, wine and other comforts) lives that came with a religious service. That said, to many 'monks', kind hearted or other wise, the certainty that all must 'hail Caesar' or whoever was the local warrior aristocrat/king/pope, etc. was unquestionable ; it was the lot of the peasant ' to support his/her 'betters' - religion & it's rules of behavior made that easy. Did they (religious leaders, nobility) know how to use religious 'feeling' and fervor to maintain social 'control? Of Course they Did! More - they thought (still do) it was there right and responsibility to 'manage' the masses.Then, the Crusades and religious pilgrimage, today repressive laws, and religious pilgrimage - and again and again it is religious leaders who bring in the "more social controls" votes and encourage the laity to trust in their particular God's will to look after their needs (The meek shall inherit the earth don't you know? meanwhile, the greedy elite make it unfit to live on).... :) sorry... high horse...

    I am not familiar w writers of Bede's times (not a historian); you have made me also curious though, so I shall have to search.

  713. robertallen1

    You're right. A cleric in comfort gives rise to contemplation, complaisance and illegitimate children.

    You are also on point anent the religious origins of most repressive legislation, both in force and contemplated. Think what a pristinely medieval world it would be if the Jerry Falwells, the Billy Grahams and the Pat Robertsons had their way (or ways).

    However, if you were to the manor born or acquired, you might entertain a different view as to whether you were making the world unfit to live in. In a previous post, I paraphrased what I believe to be a quotation from Bob Hope, "I've been poor and I've been rich and dammit I'd rather be rich."

    I don't mean to sound lazy, but I would be interested in what you dig up about Bede's religious contemporaries.

    Please keep up the posts.

  714. Jo McKay

    I will think on that & back to it when I have chance for a little research. Here is tidbit - from Charlemagne's biographer: and From The Encyclopedia of Religion, Vol 3, Mircea Eliade, editor in chief
    "Charlemagne inherited a concept of kingship that emphasized the obligation and legitimacy of extending the Christian Faith by force of arms while also securing it at home. To these ends came also the utilization of the church hierarchy as well as lay officials as a means of social control: both groups were expected to give effect to the legal rules and pious exhortations expressed in capitularies promulgated in Latin by the assemblies that brought together bishops, abbots, and leading laymen in 779, 789, and frequently in later years. The Kings personal devotion to religio Christiana, with which he is credited by is biographer Einhard (writing c829) was essentially expressed in observance of the externals of worship as provided by the court chaplains, with little regard for spirituality or personal morality."

  715. robertallen1

    This certainly bolsters what you have been driving at and which I agree with. Thank you for the squib.

    History is surfeited with demagogues (of which religion and religionists comprimise a disquietingly large sect) harboring agenda considerably disparate from what they openly espouse. Religion might not have originated the cover up and the alibi, but it certainly refined them to an alarming degree.

    I don't suppose you've read the "Lions of the Lord" by Harry Leon Wilson. It's a novel about the beginnings of the Mormons. The reason I mention it is not only for its excellence, but for its priceless portrayal of Brigham Young.

    And speaking of religious demagogues, are you familiar with Michael Kohlhaas of Henrich von Kleist. You might delight in his depiction of Martin Luther.

    Please don't keep me in suspense. I wait with bated breath for your next installment.

  716. john kay

    thou shall not come on to this board and talk religion go to church
    i have seen the lord; he exists; he is me
    hurry or ill charge you $1 for being late

  717. biblelover

    The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,but to us who
    believe it is everlasting life.You talk alot but say nothing.I by the way do not go to
    organized religious churchs,I believe the bible and I keep the ten commandments. Have a nice day!

  718. johnno

    Close, -it's foolishness to those who are THINKing (and annoying at my door on a weekend) but to those who believe it is everlasting smugness.

  719. notasheepnotagoat

    what does scripture have to say? you don't even know who wrote scripture. many people who wrote parts of the bible as you know it actually were conveyed by multiple authors.
    aside from that there were over 300 books in the original bible, now there are 60 something.
    do you know who picked which ones to keep>? do you believe that the person who chose those books was trust worthy?
    if the authenticity of the bible is destroyed before we even get into its myths which can also be refuted, then I suggest you find another book.

  720. mingala123

    interesting and beautiful presentation but I was wondering why they put stupid music background in most of the documentary film. Some are even worse.

  721. David

    In the final passages of Exodus Moses has an argument with God. God has given the Ten Commandents to Moses and they both see that the Israelites are worshipping a golden calf (an egyptian deity) and God says that he is going to smite them. Moses says that the Lord has brought them out of bondange, brought the seven plagues on Egypt to do so, made him part the waters and drowned Pharoahs army to keep them safe, and now your're going to kill them? God relents. In the ancient world, one did not argue with a god, let alone win the argument. Who was he talking to?

  722. Keith Charles

    an Alien?

  723. Keith Charles

    yeah, spot on about the crap music

  724. Jeremy

    Gotta love the religious people immediately claiming this is all bogus, when in fact, it is supported more by history, than their own bibles. Get a hint people, don't fall for the good ol' "Sky cake" myth. Grow up and get a life.

  725. Guest

    another one you call despiccable,....despicable. You sure seem to enjoy that word even though you have no clue how to spell it.
    It is against the comment policy.

  726. robertallen1

    You are not the one to determine what is or is not against comment policy, just as you are not the one to determine which branches of scholarship are valid or invalid. You really must have a bloated opinion of yourself.

  727. Vern Miles Dillon

    christianity's paradigm: humankind is born a sinner because of the Fall, and jesus saves humankind by people creating organizations that expand globally to convert other people to the worldview.

    there was no fall.

    at the end of chapter three of the genesis, god said:" Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever."

    The serpent said this before god: "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

    Read Genesis from chapter 1 to 3.
    read it mindfully.
    see if you can see a pattern with me: a pattern of god blessing his creation as good, and blessing it to be fruitful;
    a pattern of god's power being transfered to his creation;
    a sociolization of male domanice;
    and most excitingly, what were the words of adam? did he ever worshopped god when he was created, and what did he say to "the women" after god cursed them to a difficult life?
    - not what st paul hoped.

    also, what was eve's motive to eat from the tree of knowledge? was it for "a desire to be wise"?

    in chapter two gives the motive for god to create man: "the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground." he then made man out of dust. better than a monkey or alien methink.

    read the genesis friends.
    what i was doing is called many things, like deconstruction or induction, or maybe critical reading.

    my ending two cents is the first verse in the bible where the letter iee is used to signife self-awareness, and it doesnt began with god, but with adam and the women after they ate of the fruit and realized that it was cold:

    "And when the woman saw that the tree was GOOD for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be DESIRED to make one WISE, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

    And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

    And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the COOL of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

    9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

    10And he said, iiiiiiiiiiiii heard thy voice in the garden, and iiiiiiiii was afraid, because iiiiii was naked; and iiiiiiiiiiii hid myself.

    And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked?"
    What a question.
    who told you that you were naked?
    was that shame? i think not.
    for god at the end of the myth gives meaning and control over our lives -or why life is difficult: said this, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." (no hell, but dirt.)

    And! right after, hear what adam said: And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living." not a bitch.

    ___ANd to futher dive into the weather, the next verse writes, "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them." (not so angry.)


    "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken." (motive)

    Attention: google map the flaming sword!
    So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of EdeN...a FLAMeING SWORD which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

    plato and many say that immortality is the ultimate goal. thaT's wHy i belive in jesus: so i can live forever with the Good or God. then why not go to the tree of life instead? because it is humankinds journey to "become" like "one of us." fore the serpent was in the Know, and -THERE IS NO FLAMEING SWORD TO GUARD THE TREE OF LIFE IN REAL LIFE! THUS IT MUST BE SYMBOLIC! AND TAKEN AS SUCH.


    the genesis was written after other epics. life was hard before langague.

    forgive me for my sins: spelling, structure, focus, gram. etc. i hope you coperhend my writting as pieces of a puzzle, and you read the chapters of genesis and complete a freshing picture.

  728. Achems_Razor

    @Vern Miles Dillon:

    That is fine and dandy, but it is still one big fairy tale! And basically you are talking about aliens seeding the planet, making us like them/gods, and/or panspermia.

  729. fender24

    The exodus were written by one author i think. moses himself, cause he is a central character there.

    "And it came to pass on the third day in the morning,
    there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount,
    and the voice of the trumpets exceeding loud; so that all the people
    that was in the camp trembled…And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke,
    because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and the smoke thereof ascended
    as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly…And the voice
    of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder…"

    evidence that someone, something landed, god or alien?, who knows. but it was real.

  730. robertallen1

    No, wrong. There's no archaeological evidence of a mass exodus from Egypt, much less any longtime wandering in the desert. Secondly, nothing of this supposed exodus is mentioned in any of the surviving Egyptian works we have (and we have quite a few), much less any Moses--and by the way, Moses was a common Egyptian name, not a Hebrew one. So, so much for your bible. There are several enlightening documentaries on this.

  731. fender24

    Watch life after life, i know people who have died and mysteriously came back. and they say exactly what people say in this documentary, so i know what happens when i die. im not afraid of death anymore. Universe do not waste energy, When i die my energy (soul) will continue its journey. Just look at the univerese, there is signs of life and death everywhere. Like every star that dies turns to something its energy isnt wasted. this we can learn from. cause everything in universe is connected, and we are a part of the creative forces in the universe. When Jesus speaks of God's Kingdom "inside" us, we are talking about a level
    of consciousness that we are not usually aware on while awake - but that we can be. For within ourselves, we are in contact with the divine, even though we usually do not know it. we are divine creatures and kingdom of God is within us. wake up from the daily and decreased consciousness and become aware of it.
    To be saved that is to spot his own greatness.

  732. robertallen1

    And just how do you know these people have mysteriously come back to life? Just how do you know so much about the sou? Just how do you know so much about the so-called kingdom of God? Quite frankly, I think you're lying.

  733. fender24

    They are confirmed dead by the nurses and what this people tell after wards that they remember everything, seeing themselves from above in theyre astral body is amazing., ive spoken with friends who confirms that, and everyone experiencing this is saying the same thing. this is not so rare,. there is alot of stories like this on the net. why i know so much about the soul it comes from personal experiences and religion and even science. why would i lie, when all i have said is available for you.

  734. over the edge

    could you point me to a case (confirmed and documented) of someone being medically brain dead coming back to life? people come out of comas, people come back from loss of heart beat and breathing stoppage but i have yet to see a case of a person recovering from actual brain death (zero brain activity). while there is still brain activity there are multiple explanations of what people see,hear and experience and in no way can it be confirmed to be supernatural in origin

  735. fender24

    There is alot of evidence, u are watching too many docu's. U are saying the same bs ive heard before.
    acording to the Bible Pharaos daughter found Moses, thats how he got his egyptian name. Though his mother was hebrew. I do not need Archaeological evidence when Bible is truth, it's not fairytale stories. People in those times were pretty interested in their stories and tradition was everything. I would rather guess that the stories had a common root, based on evidence. Just like Atlantis and all the stories of it. The survivors of the destruction scattered and landed on the closest areas from the sunk island. Then the story of the sunk land was passed on, and became the basis of religion. Not long ago they thought Troy was a myth until they discovered it recently.

  736. robertallen1

    Have you ever heard of catalepsy?

    Secondly, you have no hard evidence other than that from obviously delusional people.

    Third, don't insult my intelligence.

  737. His Forever

    Catalepsy--convulsions whenever a cat is near? ;-)

  738. robertallen1

    Just what are concultions? As a matter of fact, just what are you talking about?

  739. fender24

    Catalepsy! i know of that, funny u bring it up im sure there are hundreds of illnesses i can come up with which fits this events. It's the science answer to everything they can't explain:D, just like Paralyze sleeping. Please i guess youre intelligence can think outside the box, u got any personal experience?. What do u think happen when we die? Do u think there is more advanced civilizations in the universe? Why did u choose to message me if u do not believe in this?
    I base my evidence from my personal belief, experience and what people i know have told me. My mother has 40 years of experience with healthcare. in the operation department and home nursing, she know kids have died . U just dont believe it and its fine, but dont go around saying they are delusional and call me a lier then do youre research. I'm not insulting you here cause i dont know you., but acording to what u wrote it seems like you ignore the evidence of exodus Ron Wyatt proves what im saying. That there are people who do not believe the biblical accounts of the ancient history of the Israelites is not new. What is new in "Doubting the Story of the Exodus" (LA Times, April 13, 2001) is that doubt seems to have been turned into historical fact. Readers were told that there is a consensus of biblical historians and archaeologists that the Exodus did not happen. In reality, though, no such consensus actually exists.

  740. fender24

    My Mother has 40 years of experience with healthcare. In operation department and home nursing. She got ALOT of cases about this. There was a kid who died from drowning. When they arrived at the hospital my mother and others eventually managed to restart the heart. at the time they do not see much brain activity mosty heart. They do now know how much of the brain is damaged or not before he wakes up. He was put in respirator and they woke him up with his parents the day after. He sat up on his bed and asked if he could get something to eat. like nothing happened :D.

  741. robertallen1

    Personal belief and what people have told you don't count, only hard evidence and this you are unable to provide. And please don't insult my intelligence with your outside-the-box crap.

    Your wilful ignorance and reliance on the Bible instead of hard evidence are worthy of insult.

  742. robertallen1

    Do you have this person's medical records or do you expect us merely to take your word for it?

  743. over the edge

    no offense but that doesn't prove anything. do you have documented proof that i can see for myself that somebody had an experience after being brain dead and came back to life?

  744. AntiTheist666

    @over the edge

    There was the case of Anna Bagenholm (see wiki article) perhaps not the proof you seek but interesting nevertheless. I’m sure I’ve seen a doc about it somewhere but can’t remember what it was called.

    The Crucified One

    Edit. I've just found the doc. Horizon: Back from the Dead. Here at TDF.

  745. over the edge

    very interesting story. i have not watched the video (but i will). while interesting the article does not state brain dead. i know that you did not state this and i appreciate you bringing this incident to my attention.

    p.s i would like to be sarcastic and end with a tag line (The Crucified On) but drawing a blank. ironic on the subject of brain death i think

  746. AntiTheist666

    @over the edge

    Ha ha. Crucified On. Did you just drop an “e” then? ;-) Watch out I might get cross! Lol

    The BrainDead One

  747. His Forever

    "concultions" is both a misspelling AND a type-o in the same word. ;-) It was late anyway. No mental abilities working well at that time. I edited my original post.

  748. robertallen1

    1. Ron Wyatt is a fraud.

    2. If there is no archaeological evidence for the Exodus, much less the wandering in the desert, those things simply did not happen.

    3. You are patently ignorant of the history of the Bible and the works which came before it and such ignorance seems to be one of the sources of your uneducated assertions.

    4. You have no idea about what Jesus said any more than I do or anyone else for that matter--and don't quote your Bible, for you know nothing about it.

    5. You cannot get it through your head that your personal experiences and those of your mother do not constitute hard evidence and hence are worthless--and I'm not the only one who's brought this to your divided attention.

    6. You have presented no evidence of anyone coming back from the dead and as Achem has tried to inform you, once a person is brain-dead, that's it.

    7. As you are the one positing all this nonsense, it's up to you to provide the hard evidence to turn it into fact, not for me or anyone else. In other words, your word is meaningless.

    8. Your ignorance makes of the Bible a sillier book that it is. Be that as it may, In the event of conflict between science and the Bible, anyone with any intelligence will opt for the former, for to choose the latter is a sign of gross ignorance.

    10. All your "information," including the "ark discovery," seems to come from creationist sites. Why don't you read a few scientific articles or are you afraid to?

    Your wilful ignorance entitles you to no respect at all.


  749. robertallen1

    Anna Bagenhoim was a case of extreme hypothermia caused while skiing. She was under the ice for 80 minutes before being rescued and flown to a hospital where a team of 100 doctors and staff worked on her for 9 hours and finally revived her. Note, she was not brain-dead. She made a 99% recovery. In other words, there was nothing supernatural about what happened, just a great team doing great work. So it is not the proof you are seeking and which no one can provide because it simply doesn't exist.

  750. fender24

    ps: I have never claimed that i know what Jesus said more then u or anyone else that comes from youre delusional brain:D.

  751. robertallen1

    It seems to go beyond our comprehension that the opinion of your local priest, the Bible, you and your mother are worthless. Where's the hard evidence?

  752. fender24

    This article is only based on the media. You're source lack some info. I know machines can fail to but i see no reason to believe it "The simples explanation is that the PET scan was either in error, or was reflecting a reversible situation" Ofcourse that didnt suprise me. The easiest way to deny miracles, but u can only speculate. We both know that the pet scan showed zero brain activity before his brother moved that knife. Zack began to respond and his destiny would be much different if he didn't heh. Tt was not his time yet.

    If machine failure is the explanation in all cases i got. How come its not replaced by more accurate ones? and what does technicians say about the machine's loyalty? i would guess hospitals wouldn't accept them if they weren't etz.

    be safe.

  753. over the edge

    if you read the whole article i posted you would see that there are protocols that when followed errors would be caught. in this case they weren't followed . also please don't try to put the burden of proof onto me. you made the original claim the burden lies with you. that is one of the oldest tricks in the book to used by people without concrete proof

  754. fender24

    Zack’s doctor, Leo Mercer, showed his parents the scan – his brain was entirely black. No blood flow. This was sufficient to meet criteria for brain death this is hard enough evidence for death for me. The process of organ donation began. at 36 hours this scan was performed.
    where in the article does it say protocols weren't followed. how accurate is this news article he is referring to??? This is the authors speculation only. He weren't there and witnessed it. He can talk about what he would have done differently, but he have no idea what other tests were made. just as he states in the article. What u base argument on is only speculation and little information.

    The decision were made between the parents and doctor from the evidence they had at the time. U and robertallen1 has asked for hard evidence u have showed me little but youre own negativity and denial.

    Have a nice day.

  755. robertallen1

    The level of your English goes hand in hand with the level of your thought.

  756. over the edge

    the article i posted was from a neurologist so i feel comfortable listening to his view (as opposed to a story posted by a reporter). i will post the part of the article you seem to be missing "it must include an apnea test in which all respiratory support is turned off in order to generate a maximum safe respiratory drive and still result in no spontaneous respirations (breathing is mediated in the brainstem). The slightest twitch of brain activity rules out brain death. In addition, it is recommended that the exam is repeated after at least 6 hours (in CT we use 24 hours) to make sure the clinical brain death is persistent. Finally, there cannot be anything reversible that can suppress brain function, like drugs or hypothermia."i don't see these things being performed according to your link

  757. fender24

    16 And it came to pass on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunders and lightnings and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of a horn exceeding loud; and all the people that were in the camp trembled.
    17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
    18 Now mount Sinai was altogether on smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire; and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
    19 And when the voice of the horn waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice.
    20 And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, to the top of the mount; and the LORD called Moses to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.
    "the best evidence would be if he appeared in the sky at the same time to everyone with the same message."
    Something landed on Sinai?

    Exodus 19:16

  758. robertallen1

    Quoting from the bible is not evidence.

  759. fender24

    Prove that.

  760. robertallen1

    Read up on its history.

  761. Epicurus

    that is a story. how gullible are you? do you also believe muhammad flew to heaven on a winged horse?

    grow up.

  762. Mort Raws

    Although I'm generally on your side - rather believing in science than a mythological account, being an agnostic, having a brain... - I have to put some minor piece of constructive criticism here.

    As for #2 of your list, there is a logical fallacy in there. If there is no evidence for something to have happened, it is not scientific to rule that something out completely. Though most unlikely, it would still be a possibility, and might have happened, as long as it's not proven what else actually did happen during that time. Only the probability would be lower.

    Of course all that only applies if there is no obvious reason to dismiss it completely - like breaking basic laws of physics or the like (and even then it might be a reason to think about these laws).

    Having a theory with a higher probability does not mean every other theory must be completely wrong.

    Other than that I totally agree btw.

  763. robertallen1

    #2 concerned the supposed Exodus from Egypt. As not one artifcat has been unearthed--and considering the number of people supposedly involved, there should have been something--and as there is nothing of this event in the many Egyptian annals from the period which we possess, it is safe to say that the probability of the Exodus is 0; it simply didn't happen.

    The same thing with breaking the basic laws of physics. The probability of that on earth (not in black holes) is zero.

    Barring proof to the contrary, an extremely low probability can be assigned to just about anything fantastical such as unicorns, gods and fairies , but when the probability reaches a certain nadir it is virtually zero and can be pretty much disregarded.

  764. fender24

    That there are people who do not believe the biblical accounts of the ancient history of the Israelites is not new. What is new in "Doubting the Story of the Exodus" (LA Times, April 13, 2001) is that doubt seems to have been turned into historical fact. Readers were told that there is a consensus of biblical historians and archaeologists that the Exodus did not happen. In reality, though, no such consensus actually exists.

  765. robertallen1

    Find me one artifact or one contemporary extra-biblical reference. And yes, there is a consensus.

  766. jezz12

    On this subject of Exodus being dis-proven. Way back before the start of creation, when there was war in heaven, between Micheal and his angels against Lucifer and his angels, this war evidently was over the rest day, the sabbath day, where Lucifer also wanted to be exalted above God, praised, worshiped, by rest of the Heavenly angels on this day of rest. O.K now in Genesis when the Earth was created in 6 days and on the 7th the Lord rested blessed it hallowed it for the the rest of generations to come. Now with Exodus and the Ten Commandments especially the 4th commandment to remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy. Well to those who think that this is a whole lot of mumbo jumbo! Well in history if you look into what Constantine had done to this 4th commandment through Catholicism, and a time which was recorded as The Dark Ages where Catholicism suppressed the scriptures, death or torture was the penalty if found in possession of a bible. What I am trying to get at is I'm not blaming Catholicism or any other denomination but there is a dark force that is rearing it's head down through the generations. Now they want to take the book of Exodus out of the equation, or could it be this 4th commandment that Satan despises. Who or what is he going to influence next to oppose or destroy the Bible the Scriptures and it's the saying goes history's repeating its' self.

  767. Rachel Buchner

    You know what there's really no point arguing, everyone has a bias, we process stuff through are bias if facts go against what we believe we discard it, if facts go towards what we believe we accept it. That true of all humans.

  768. robertallen1

    Nonsense. Facts are facts.

  769. BradInFL

    Good article. This is an interesting documentary, but it makes the fatal logical error of assuming that absence of evidence = evidence of absence. There are some people whose worldviews are so narrow and dogmatic that they are incapable of admitting to themselves that there is any valid reason to even consider that their particular opinion, which they desperately hope is correct, might in fact be in error. This possibility is anathema to them so they rant and rave against all dissenters.

  770. robertallen1

    If there's no evidence, forget it which applies to all of your self-serving post including this one.

  771. BradInFL

    There is plenty of evidence that supports the historicity of the Bible. I replied earlier with a link. If that post fails to show, I'll repost with some advice on where to find this evidence.

  772. robertallen1

    And just where is the evidence for the six-day creation, the Garden of Eden, the Flood (nothing you have presented even begins to qualify), the Exodus from Egypt (no archaeological remnants or records have been found), the Resurrection, the virgin birth, just to name a few? And don't try to get away with using the bible as its own evidence.

    Also, no creationist or religious-based sites accepted.

  773. BradInFL

    -"Also, no creationist or religious-based sites accepted."

    You're too funny, robert! Of course there are all kinds of unbiased secular sites that are committed to showing the reliability of the Bible, hah hah hah...

    Like I said, since you will allow only the evidence which tickles your ears, there really isn't much point, is there?