The Thinking Atheist

The Thinking AtheistFrom the author: Using satire, research and some common sense, we explore common-sense questions about God.

A former Christian of 30 years, I ultimately found that religion, faith and scripture lacked any true answers, especially in the (bright) light of scientific discovery and the truth of Evolution by Natural Selection.

Having an insiders perspective of Christianity, I use my skills as a producer to stir the pot of debate and, hopefully, make it uncomfortable for anyone to be a mere spectator in the arena of ideas.

Note: This is not a documentary film in a strict sense. These are professionally edited short clips gathered from a YouTube channel named The Thinking Atheist.

Watch the full documentary now (playlist - 2 hours, 37 minutes)

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Comments and User Reviews

  • Guest

    "Atheists such as biologist and popular author Richard Dawkins have proposed that human morality is a result of evolutionary, sociobiological history."

    O, really? According to abrahamic religions, first murder ever done by man was Cain killing of his own brother Abel because of jealousy. This event, even if one does not take it dogmatically, illustrates that murder and jealousy is thousands of years old. Older than any written "holy" scripture of the time. Man has always waged wars against eachother since the dawn of human history. Considering mans natural evolutionary steps, achieving higher intelligence than any other species on the planet, how come this "intelligence" was not capable of preventing endless brutal wars between humans??? :D

    If evolution is all about survival of the fittest, then all homosapiens (modern man) had "technically" already achieved it when it "won" this "competition" extincting all other known human-related species ending with homosapiens as the ultimate "master" species. This happened atleast 50,000 years ago, so why the hell are we still competing with eachother like madmen? Ironically, our whole sosio-economic system is solely based on competition alone. From education to workplace to products market, every aspect of human life is practically competized with social darwinistic dogma. Poor, weak and disabled have always been an outcast of human civilization, and will always be as long we keep living like social animals. Are we really using our nature given intelligence and superiorty above all other worlds species in a "responsible" way??? :D

    It is said: With great power comes great responsibility. When applied to human society it becomes: With great power comes greater greed :D

    That being said: humans are scumbag of nature, destroying very mother that constantly nurtured them for millions, if not billions of years to the present date. We live more irresponsible today than we ever lived before homosapiens even existed! So to all atheists, naturalistic moralists: Plz give us believers just one example of genetic mutation in natural human behaviour or moral in the history of human evolution? We still behave "worse" than wild beasts and more brutal than any other know species, when it comes to killing, genociding, waging war against our own "fellow" human beings... Infact we have systematically killed more humans than any other "threatning" species for our own survival. Its absurd but logical because human morals and natural behaviour just not "change" even if constantly evolving from religious dogma to the age of materialistic enlightenment for thousands of years. We are more "competitive" against eachother than ever before! :D

  • as_above

    Religion anti-religion, atheist theist, white anti-white black ,anti black proof on either side doesn't exist yet people argue their ignorance to the death seems funny to me.
    Start with defining fact work from there if such a thing exists at our present knowledge .
    not to mention what if biblical truth was metaphorical an not to be taken literally as the story of the kid who cried wolf? no wolf no kid just a moral of the story .
    Greek mythology being a description of observable things and not an ideology .
    man has no facts just principle .

  • AtheistPunk

    Nice watch :) many need to watch this doc before they maybe start to realise how truly funny far fetched and nonsense the Bible is.

  • Guest

    Killing God, Bible, Quran wont solve a damn thing. Soviets did it, even communists chinese tried it by banning all forms of organised religion. And what happened? Soon after the collapse of Soviet Union, "opium of the people" returned with its formal glory. So we see how banning, ridiculing, oppressing the religion never helped any society to become more "happy", just more materialistic and meaningless. The most brutal and violent wars in human history (ww1 and ww2) were never fought in the name of a religion or any fictionous diety, but in the name of "man-made" political ideologies like nazism, fascism, nationalism, communism etc. etc. We are still fighting for man-made political ideologies like socialism and capitalism, and yet thousands of year old religious dogma is somehow more "concerned" and critique worthy? :D

    What about saying that our present social and economic man-made "mainstream" ideologies of socialism and capitalism, that governs our daily lives, are alot more farfetched and nonsense than the Holy Bible ever was? Some would say, well its because of capitalism, that we have achieved so much. To them, I would say, its because of capitalism, that we also have lost so much.

  • avd420

    You are very uneducated on this issue. I don't even know how to begin to fix it. But I think getting rid of religion, through intellect not through force, would be a start.

  • verseinu

    I agree with avd420!

    I would love nothing more then to see religion scaled back to the backwaters of squalor, but I don't want it done by the banning of organized religion. Organize all you want, just don't subject children to manipulation and fear in order for them to see 'god's love', let them make a rational decision when they have the age and knowledge to make it. If this were the case there would be no need to ban anything.

    I agree that the 'isms' cause untold damage, but that doesn't mean then that religion is less 'critique worthy'. Saying piss smells bad doesn't make shit smell any better.

    What is an 'ism'? Measures to control ones behaviour and, in turn, beliefs. How is religion not this? I don't know. You treat religion as if it were different from any other means of social control. It isn't - It is 'man-made'. So, it should be held up to the same light as every other 'man-made' ideology. The bible is merely an anthology of metaphors from early literate humanity.

  • Achems_Razor

    I might watch some, but to my thinking why should I bother? All this religion garbage to me is a no-brainer anyway. Why even rehash things like invisible gods that are only in the mind, haven't seen any walking around lately, have you?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Alan-Jelercic/100001140639042 Alan Jelercic

    evolution is not a result of "survival of the fittest." that is social darwnism that some early 20th century asshole used as a machiavellan pass for "might makes right." darwin proposed "natural selection" which, crudely, is the ability for a creature to adapt to its environment, thus passing down the genes that allowed it to survive.

    Atheism is another form of faith. Faith in mankind. No thank you. Dogmatism equals death. no matter the side it comes from. Science is just as political and rhetorical as any other medium. science and religion both have plenty to offer humankind. it's folks who get entrenched in this idea of Truth, and the only Truth. the most liberating concept is to realize there is no truth, and no one can offer it. any idea of truth is a compilation of any peak into the human soul. fiction does this. science does this. one's own empirical study of life does this.

    what we are witnessing is an arc in our evolution. the very things that allowed us to evolve are now the very things that are contributing to our devolution. can we wake up to this? convenience, for example, the drive to be able to get more by doing less was a positive force in getting us to modern society. now, it is literally killing us...and the planet. efficiency in agriculture, once, great news, but now we know that the western diet, as a result of our incredible agricultural strides, is the lead suspect for cancer, heart disease, diabetes, etc...

    gathering in groups and working together was how we adapted to harsh climates. now, that we've created mini climates, houses, cars, etc...we are divided. this is also a result of capitalism, and the west's notion of individualism, of which is a facade. a deadly one. they are all intertwined.

    i was a life long atheist. never believed in god. didn't make sense. growing up in the world, i realized that science is incapable of answering all our questions. it simply cannot. the questions aren't built into the design of science. there are things that are unobservable, unquantifiable, etc...
    after an Eng Lit class where we discussed the concept of "reality" in terms of how we could talk about literary characters, thus inventing worlds in our imaginations it struck me. all folklore, myth, scripture are attempts at building worlds. worlds where the gods do exists. it fails when people take these concepts and turn them into concrete truths, another pitfall of evolution. to me, there is no difference when a scientist tries to tell me that this is this and that is that. sure, i'll allow it to influence me, but still, it all depends on the language we share and the words we use, but, the truth...well, scientific FACTS are turned around on a daily basis, and as time unfolds, new science replaces old science, etc

    basically, stop hatin...

  • http://www.facebook.com/EyanAvisror Eytan Avisror

    A work of genius!!!

  • 46nTwo

    Well because you asked... Yeah, last Thursday + 4 grams shrooms... you should have been there ^_^

  • magarac

    Guess that whole think would be more effective if i would believe in religion in the first place.
    But at least it was some what entertaining!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_WEKMWF4VS7U76UWVAIAAH46RRQ J.G.

    Great!

  • Achems_Razor

    Ah yes! the Amanita Muscaria, the religion starter, how could I have forgotten?

  • pwndecaf

    I don't want to take on your whole post but this survival of the fittest is really wrong, isn't it? Isn't evolution survival of the most adaptable? And the adaptations that work the best continue? The ones that don't work, don't last?

    Perhaps I take the word "fittest" too literally, but I think many people mean it as "strongest" and I disagree with that.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6IFSRYOXCAVTEOHRDBF3Y3AUJM Alex

    lol.... Eat acid, see God.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Drew-Jordan-Maharaj/1651620050 Drew-Jordan Maharaj

    You should consult a history text book the next time before you post, as then you would know the religious nature of nazism (was almost exclusively a catholic hobby, now we also have muslim and other christian national socialism). If every german soldier had to pray for hitler, and wear a belt that said 'god is on our side, gott mit uns, how could you call that non-religious? You think thousands of years of the pope and his crew of pedos spreading the myth of deicide throughout europe had anything to do with public opinion in nazi germany or the balkans? Personality cults like those which surrounded mao and stalin are based on exactly the kind of supernatural anti-rational b.s. that atheists and agnostics (freethinkers) argue against.. I'm glad that you are nostalgic for a period in time where people lived to 40, and half your children died because capitalism has 'taken that away' from us. Or perhaps you just wish people relied more on the church so they wouldn't be out in the world proving 2000 years of lies to be false.

  • Achems_Razor

    Okay, am watching the doc. it is actually pretty good, funny, I don't think the religee's would like it though.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Drew-Jordan-Maharaj/1651620050 Drew-Jordan Maharaj

    This would receive a F in elementary school, party because you think smiley faces are an appropriate substitute for periods. Unfortunately you also seem to think that guess-work is an appropriate substitute for scientific research into the origin of our species. 'Survival of the fittest' does not mean what you think, it operates on the genetic level and only extrapolates to greater levels as an explanatory tool to understand that gene level selection (individual organism selection, group selection, and so fourth are not separate evolutionary processes).Of course murder and jealousy are older than scripture, isn't that exactly what you would expect if they were evolved traits? We haven't been evolving for 50 000 years as you seem to think, we've been evolving for 3.8 billion and I think you'll find that all the evidence that has been painstakingly gathered by the inquisitive and intelligent among us will support that view. Read 'the greatest show on earth' very carefully, and once you truly understand evolution then perhaps you won't be going around embarrassing yourself with arguments of the quality located on your post.

  • eugler

    A lot of what you are saying is not making that much sense to me. I think that's probably because you are taking the whole thing much too literally. Evolutionary psychology has nothing to do with "genetic mutations", I think what you where really talking about when you referenced Dawkins was Memetics rather than Genetics. Anyway you wanted an example for change in moral and human behaviour occuring over time and of course there are uncountable examples. I'll give you two, one very obvious example about morale and another more subtle one about behaviour.

    The obvious one will be the abolition of slavery and the subsequent and still ongoing emancipation of ethnic minorities in the West.

    The more subtle one which is only indirectly connected to the conscious mind is the change in perception considering the attractiveness of tanned skin in Europe. 2000 years ago the perception of beauty was such, that the paler and "whiter" you are, the more attractive you are.
    This perception has changed 180 degrees since then. From personal experience I can tell you that a kaukasian person with a decent tan is usually much more attractive than the same person without. That seems to be the dominant feeling nowadays at least in Europe. If you go e.g. to India on the other hand, they see it the way Europeans saw it 2000 years ago. Lighter skin means greater beauty and also higher cast. The same way women in the West try to catch as much sun as they can during the summer to work up a decent tan, Indian women try to avoid unnecessary exposure to direct sunlight to avoid getting tanned. Still that has nothing to do with genetic evolution, it's social evolution we are talking about here.

    Satisfied?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6IFSRYOXCAVTEOHRDBF3Y3AUJM Alex

    Agreed. It's hard to argue rationally with someone whose defense for their beliefs is just as irrational as the beliefs themselves.

    Evidence doesn't mean s*** to someone who doesn't seem to require it to draw conclusions....

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_LVIY4XEAKUYWYEMSL7CDOEJUWI Barzee

    It only took you 30 years to see through this?

  • Andy Jones

    I'm glad TDF has finally linkes some of TTA stuff to the website. He's fantastic!!

  • Craig Piti

    They forgot to mention that the only place you can 'buy' their 'special' jesus jammies for which "EVERY" 'worthy' member is REQUIRED to wear is through an authorized dealer, which by chance of course, is owned and operated by a certain tax exempt business by the name of the LDS church. Isn't that convennnnnient.

  • jonathan jackward

    great work, but how do you explain the newest findings beyond quantum mechanics the unified field of conscious obviouslly its no man in the clouds thats swatting you in the nuts with a fly swatter for eternity but it shows that atheism is built from certain assumptions of its own... science is now proving what was though of as supernatural 5 years ago!

  • jonathan jackward

    to be atheist or christian are both indoctrinations of society, you think one is less ridiculous than the other? barely .. if you really want to free your mind look at the NEWEST findings of science like in the last 2 years and newer if you call your self a scientist you owe it to yourself to search on google for unified field of consciousness then search for a man named Nassim Haramein on you tube that will transform you from adolescent , to a adult psychologically .

  • jonathan jackward

    i love these videos but have to state Christians have the intelligence of a 8 year olds thinking and atheists have the intelligence of a 14 year olds thinking.one video says "think for yourself" but an atheist isn't doing that he is taking a modern viewpoint of the structure of society and superimposing parts of science as a way to validate that .science doesn't say anywhere that the supernatural doesn't exist, it proves it study quantum mechanics from 2010 up if your a so called scientist .realize that evolution is how molecular level changes and does not mean we came from apes, where are all the half man apes at? realize that everything you where taught in school is obsolete and college is a means of taking your money , the history of the world you think exists is only one probable reality in a sea of infinite possibility. if you do the calculations you will realize science left out the part about spin! the universe exists inside of a black hole and the unification einstein was seeking is true , but space time isn't connected! gravity is the strongest force.. because every atom and beyond is a singularity.. the unified theory of consciousness is the foundation for the reality in which we all arise .all these things are fact and they go against the view of atheism just as much as christianity does!

    if you want the truth start with this but remember to keep an open mind dont behave in a closed loop like a christian would

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_K5HC5LLML6CJ3PSS7Y26LIEMKA original_identification

    one day athiest will be brave enough to take on islam, but not today!

  • hasib faryabi

    The existence or nonexistence of God or the righteousness of religion can not be proven or disproved. Maybe Science might be able to give us a definitive answer sometime in the future but as for now we should stop worrying about others peoples beliefs and instead focus our efforts on how to better ourselves as human beings. If your taking the time out of your day to comment on how dumb you think the idea of God is or how great your religion is than the only thing it just shows how primitive your thinking still is. Find a way to better your surroundings and try to live a more righteous and honest life and stop focusing on other peoples lives.

  • marcosanthonytoledo

    A very funny documentary it made me laugh at times but it does beg the question with whom did the Arabs and the Israelite make their deals with and why they are along with Christians are at each others throats and have spread their violence around the world and have spread slavery and genocide have become sacraments at least in Christianity and Islam this what the followers of these beliefs must ask themselves.

  • nick macky

    I agree with everything you've posted, but feel the need to point out that it doesn't 'beg' the question, it 'prompts' it. Begging the question means something very different to what you've proposed.
    I only feel this need because I am a dick though :-D

  • verseinu

    "to be atheist or christian are both indoctrinations of society, you think one is less ridiculous than the other? barely "

    care to explain?

  • Demoorelizer

    I agree with what you have said and have had a similar upbringing as you have, but Evolution is survival of the fittest. Not fittest in the sense of benching 450 pounds and running a mile in 4 minutes but "fittest" as in the organism which has the most offspring which can reproduce and then they have the most offspring that can also reproduce. That's the definition I learned anyhow.

    Wikipedia's definition is: Fitness describes the ability to both survive and reproduce, and is equal to the average contribution to the gene pool of the next generation that is made by an average individual of the specified genotype or phenotype

  • casaida

    u guys suck men haven't changed sense the Aztecs monkeys are still monkeys and religion is not the problem religion didn't rob Africa of their precious metals and minerals and killed millions in the middle east for land (israel) and oil and definitely didn't fund corrupt government in south east Asia so Nike could make you a cheap sneaker get your mind right your the problem not religion

  • melloyeyo

    I can't have enough of them. They're brilliant!!!

  • tanzanos

    Who wants to go to heaven when everyone's down there having a party?

  • Guest

    And why is that, exactly?... And they are taking it on, in essence: All you have to do is substitute a couple of words here and there.

  • Atheist13

    @original_identification

    "one day athiest will be brave enough to take on islam, but not today!"

    No bravery required. I have islam on toast for my breakfast. Then it ends up in the crapper where it belongs, along with your comment.

    Unkeep the faith

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @Alan Jelercic,

    Atheism is another form of faith. Faith in mankind. No thank you. Dogmatism equals death. no matter the side it comes from.

    I guess you don't believe and trust your fellow human beings. And where do you see the dogmatism in science or should I say atheism. There are about 15% atheists in this world and they're the most hated minority. Have you wondered why is that?

    Atheism is only absence of belief. No one is trying to deliver to you the ultimate truth, nor claims the possession of it. On the contrary, atheism means uncertainty, scrutiny, skepticism, progression. Those are unstable concepts and are not for the faint hearted.

    The very things that allowed us to evolve are now the very things that are contributing to our devolution.

    Well... Carl Sagan warned us: We have arranged things so that almost no one understands science and technology. This is a prescription for disaster. We might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later this combustible mixture of ignorance and power is going to blow up in our faces.

    Today basically almost no one understands science. It is the hard way. Why bother when you have ready made deities that you can relay upon and comfort yourself on a daily basis.

    ...i realized that science is incapable of answering all our questions.

    Who said that science has answered or will ever answer all our questions. That might never happen with science. If you expected the ultimate truth when relaying on science you've made a terrible mistake, as many did, and you came out disappointed. Science does not offer the ultimate truth.

    ...well, scientific FACTS are turned around on a daily basis, and as time unfolds, new science replaces old science, etc.

    Another misconception about what science is and what science does. Scientific theory in essence is progressive (refines previous theories) and provisional or tentative (is open to experimental checking, and does not assert certainty). That is the real strength of the science, not a weakness.

    The core problem is that people think science is all powerful, the ultimate truth teller, all mighty etc., as if science is one of their Gods. Simply it is not. It is just a tool that can be used for doing good or evil, depending on the given political/monetary system, religious/national/cultural division, etc...

  • rljp

    Athiesm is not a faith. Athiest come to realizations that the universe is so vast and science has explained or theorized a clarity that it is impossible for some being to be in control allowing X or Y to take place to enhance or destroy and teach people lessons they need to know. And I could go on but that is a starting point.

    It is like saying you need faith in an equation like 1+1=2.

  • Andrew Preston

    couple of points. firstly, gravity is the weakest of the 4 fundamental forces, not the strongest, the strongest is the strong atomic force holding giant atomic nuclei together. and asking "where are all the half-man apes at?" is an incredibly dumb question. we share common ancestors with these species, it just so happened that the ancestors who moved to africa and found themselves surrounded by serengeti grasses had to stand up, which freed up their hands to allow tool use. then humans came from them. white people are a mutation from the original black folk (I'm white).

    science, you're correct, doesn't say anywhere that the supernatural doesnt exist, but thats not the point of science. it is the study and measurement of provable observation. something is only true, truly true, if it can be proved to other people, not just to yourself. this is why personal faith cannot stand up to rational argument against a theory created to match rational, empirical evidence.

  • http://disqus.com jack bild

    Thank you for a humourous debunking of religion. Great (high) production values.

  • johnthepom

    Plain old Heretic
    There is a fair chance that you may get to the bottom of all this bulls*** by reading THIS TROUBLED EARTH available from Pomegranate Press.
    Get real, eh?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Anthony-Adkins/100000600597531 Anthony Adkins

    blah blah blah .....gravity is the weeakest force by the way by about a billion times squared....

  • Achems_Razor

    By peer review your Nassim Haramein doesn't cut the mustard.
    Little bit of a cuckoo.

    The strongest force is the strong nuclear force, not gravity.
    And quit giving the smartest scientists in the world your ad hominem attacks. If you think you are smarter then them, or even us actually, show us your credentials!

  • Achems_Razor

    You can shove your Islam up where the sun don't shine Mr Islam!

  • His Forever

    Rarely do I ever want the atheists to come out on top, but in this case I would.

  • Xerli

    Adaptable is a much better word. I wish that kind heartedness and love of the planet would evolve along with adaptability at a greater rate. No matter whether religious, atheist or agnostic, competition for survival, (sometimes observed as greed),seems to outweigh all other considerations when it comes to 80 percent of our species.
    As for Atheism versus Religious beliefs, I feel both could be wrong. That doesn't mean I have the definitive answer; we just don't have the brain power to understand what is really going on in this immense Universe. We guess and try to prove it with science, (and why can't science and religion work hand in hand I wonder?). Then through fear of the unknown, we grab at anything that in any given moment will soothe those fears, until sometimes another idea comes along and we grab at that, because in that moment it makes more sense, or we fight it with all our might because it raises another fear in us.
    Fear, greed and the 'need' to be in control are our biggest stumbling blocks when it comes to our evolution as a species.
    Perhaps if we all stopped being so egotistical and admitted we know nothing definitively, we could try to get along and work towards making living conditions on our tiny planet better for all sentient beings. Perhaps then we would begin to understand the meaning of it all and our evolution might be complete. And after that?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Alan-Jelercic/100001140639042 Alan Jelercic

    well, when 95% of the earth's population does think there is a god, then to not believe that would take faith. atheists take a stand. not believing is not denying the existence, cuz, by addressing that "god does not exist" one puts themselves in a linguistic loophole. there you are saying "god." but my point was mostly that god exists in the ideas about what god is and no where else.

  • jonathan jackward

    1. anything can be proven to think or say otherwise is an assumption and ignorant.
    2. the only one even mentioning "other peoples lives" and judging them is you , by saying what we shouldn't be doing "commenting""
    3. you yourself are doing the thing itself you say is primitive. you are focusing on other people
    4.righteousness and honesty come from truth which you say in this subject, cannot be proven

    everything you have said is primitive, hypocritical, and assumption why don't you try thinking before blabbing out incoherent non-sense.

  • jonathan jackward

    oh yeah , if that's true name one other force that leads to singularity retard.

  • signalfire1

    I talked to God and he told me he didn't exist. Since God is omniscient, I had to take this at face value and believe what He said. But, something about this bothered me. God's talking to me proved He existed, did it not? It was a conundrum, but in the end I decided to believe what I was told. It sure made things easier to not have to think about it anymore and just believe.

  • jonathan jackward

    if the atomic force is the strongest then how does gravity destroy it when creating a black hole you are ignorant.
    if man came from apes in say a 5 step process ie. how come we see step 1. ape and step 5. human but no 2,3, and 4 ?

  • jonathan jackward

    again, if the strongest force is the nuclear then how does it get destroyed when a black hole is created genius? you have no clue. what is a credential in your mind? huh going to college and being taught to recite something that society agrees upon? well let me tell you something you might not know about society and those texts book , they take out information that does not fit with there theory and adapt the truth to fit their agenda. you don't think there's a adgenda? you think democracy exists? in a monetary system the man with the most money writes the science book my friend and determines the truth that everyone is taught. my advice to you is to research the newest findings of science before you assume good luck

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Alan-Jelercic/100001140639042 Alan Jelercic

    some good points. i didn't mean to imply that i needed science to explain everything, just that, when it comes to the "subtle" or the mystical it simply dismisses it b/c it is something that cannot be tested. this is where religion comes in. i guess i wasn't clear, but i believe both have much to offer. but when one becomes dogmatic, which by definition places things as either "right or wrong" and in "black and in white" then ideas of what is True and not true become tampered with. what i was trying to convey is that i would like to see the religious discussion evolve. scripture should be viewed as fiction but that doesn't mean the human soul is not reflected in this fiction. as it is in all fiction. here, ideas of dogmatic truth don't hold relevance, cuz nothing is True, but somethings are true for some, and others, etc... and as the discussion of god moves away from the physical realm and into the subtle or mystical realm, where ideas and dreams exist, we will see human nature in a different light and be able to understand our presence here much clearer.

    from what i hear of the athiest/religious debate is , "i'm right," "no i'm right," or rather, "you're wrong," "no you're wrong," and this is antithetical to progress. but i do see you're point of science being progressive and it is valid. as well as your concern of people not being able to understand science and tech, but i would add to that that most, if not, all people, don't truly understand the role of religion as well.

    and no, i don't trust my fellow human being, have you seen this place?

    p.s. "The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness." Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Alan-Jelercic/100001140639042 Alan Jelercic

    that's fine. but the term itself was not coined by Darwin, his theory was of "Natural Selection." we get our definition of evolution from Darwin so i just wanted to clear that up, it really is moot by this point...

  • jonathan jackward

    yeah, that's why blacks hole exist as consequence of gravity. and atoms get ripped apart by gravity because the strong force is so... strong because gravity rips it up and spits it out along with the fabric of the universe because a nucleus is stronger than gravity, and gravity is the weakest force , thats why every other force creates black holes too electromagnetism, the strong force, the weak force and my farts all create black holes and nothing can escape the gravity of a black hole not even light itself because its definetly the weakest and 5+5= -6.324 yup your correct a+ for you you've correctly recited something taught to you out of a book and not experiments and mathematics and physics found out last week sounds like your a christian that replaced the bible with your middle school text book to me , but it must be true because why would everyone agree on it and say that someone who discovers new information that proves we were wrong and could change the dynamics of power and control in the world is a crack pot, yeah because the people that have control are just going to give it up for the sake of the truth and the oil companies are just going to give up the trillions they make to allow for a scientist not indoctrinated by society to patent a zero point energy motor that will outlast a humans lifetime for 10$ a person yeah we need for any truth to be monitored by a group of peers, make sure the peers are in the top 1% of finance so its fair right?

  • http://twitter.com/jahanzyb Jahanzaib Dilawer

    well bieng a Muslim I myself never knew the awnsers of the questions what the materialistic mind could provoke. And I was stunned that each and every department specialy mordern science Islam gives exceptionally satisfactory awnsers. From galaxies to molecule every thing. And an Islamic scholar told me to check any relegion wheather true or not put science test on it. And with the grace of Allah Islam will not only pass the test but will provide too many extra knowledge that science have not yet bieng reached thier. Guys my english is not good plzz ignore garamer but I want to make a request If u are really searching for a True relegion and God just study real Islam or ask any scholar I bet if your intentions are right u will complete your quest.

  • Guitarslut

    Nothing particularly offensive or even interesting about this "documentary" (and yet for some reason I watched it to the end)

  • verseinu

    @jonathan jackward

    "again, if the strongest force is the nuclear then how does it get destroyed when a black hole is created genius?"

    I'm no astrophysicist (the numbers below are from an internet search with the math to back it up), but I'm gonna give it a go.... how much mass (therefor the strength of gravity) is there in a black hole? At least, about 3 or 4x the mass of our sun, and our sun contains 1.19 x 10^57 hydrogen atoms…. That's a lot. SO, it takes the aggregate gravitational energy / mass of about 3 x 1.19 x 10^57 atoms contained within the mass a black hole to destroy ONE atomic nucleus held together by the strong nuclear force. Gravity is nothing! Those protons and neutrons really 'love' each other!

    You mention the 'newest' findings of science. Generally those are the least reputable. They haven't been through rigorous peer review. Just because something is new doesn't mean it is valid.

  • verseinu

    Breakfast is the most important meal of the day, you should treat yourself to a tastier and more nourishing breakfast!

    'Unkeep the faith' - I love it!!!

  • Atheist13

    @verseinu

    Thanks for the dietary advice; but I’m a martyr for the cause.

    I guess you speak Ancient Geek too?

    Unkeep the faith

  • verseinu

    @Atheist13

    If by ancient greek you mean a pre-delusional belief system, yes I do. I eat it for breakfast, it starts the day off right! :P

  • rljp

    Jerelic

    How can one have faith in nothing? And to say that some symbol or emblem or vision is not real and does not exist is not faith it is a reality that takes nothing more than cognitive process with the environment.

    I can have faith that if I work hard I will succeed. I can have faith my son will be an intelligent great person.

    But it is impossible for me to have faith to enable me to not believe what you believe. You do not understand what a belief is or how it comes about.

    Like I am supposed to have faith that the earth was not created in 7 days? I am supposed to have faith that the earth is not 5000 years old? I am supposed to have faith that a man built a boat and every single creature on the planet in two's stepped aboard and was saved? I am supposed to have faith to see these falsehoods 95% of people believe?

    There is no faith involved. Reality is not faith. Thus a book of stories that really don't make sense requires faith.

    It is like saying someone needs faith to believe factual history. It is like saying I need faith or else the sun will not rise and set tomorrow.

    And to say that because I am using the word God is suggesting anything is simply assinine. Its like debating abortion and everytime the anti abortionist uses the word abortion you are acknowleding their acceptance of the practice.

    And Vlatko or Discus how come I cannot comment to a person who has commented to me?

  • Atheist13

    @verseinu

    You make an interesting observation, be careful not to get any pre Socratics stuck in your teeth. But I did say Ancient Geek! : p

    Unkeep the faith

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_HA42YNQVGFO56YPY6F6O4OOR2M Rashin

    Keep in mind that Muhammad (pbuh) was an illiterate man! And if Quran is not the word of God, and if we have more knowledge today, then write something like the Quran or better than the quran. This is not my challenge. This is the challenge given to man by God in the Quran.

    In the past 1400 years many ppl tried to to write something like the quran, still trying... but they have failed.

    OPEN THE BOOK READ A COUPLE OF CHAPTERS with an open mind. then make the comments.

    Migth I ask
    What are the scientific errors?
    What are the superstitious concepts?

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @Rashin,

    Follow the link I've provided. I don't want to copy/paste it here. It's big.

    There you'll read about numerous myths and scientific errors within the text of the Qur'an such as:

    1. Creation of Earth,
    2. Embryology,
    3. A woman who has never had sexual intercourse (a virgin) that becomes pregnant and gives birth,
    4. A child who was born of a virgin mother is able to speak in complete sentences at only a day old,
    5. The idea of stones and trees talking,
    6. A man walked until he reached the setting place of the sun, and saw it setting in a muddy spring,
    7. Jinn stand on top of each other's shoulders all the way up to heaven, and listen to what is being discussed,
    8. A man who could understand the speech of animals,
    9. Creation of the sky in layers. (stars in front of the sun),
    10. Women who commit adultery are to be stoned (monkeys were subject to this law as well),
    11. If a woman or a dog passes in front of you while you are praying, your prayer will not make it to heaven,
    12. Dogs are to be killed instantly, however snakes are to first get verbal warning if he comes to your house,
    13. Lack of scientific understanding of bacteria, viruses, and germs that can be present in water.

    And you're right: In the past 1400 years many ppl tried to to write something like this... but they failed.

    P.S. Oh I forgot... an open mind means thinking without bias and considering all the facts and data from various sources, which means if you want to read a book with an open mind you have to exercise critical thinking while doing it.

  • avd420

    @Rashin

    Personally I find all of Nieztche's work to be better than the quran.

  • jayzeedafool

    from what i noticed from this site here your in a fight with god(which you will loose) pulling every docu thats athiest, your not bias or equal and looks like somthing worst than the american gov repub side

  • Achems_Razor

    @Alan Jelercic:

    "It seems to me that the idea of a personal god is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. ...Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust."

    "A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

    (Albert Einstein)

  • Jack1952

    Your Youtube link is a film by Nassim Haramein. This is a guy who believes that a comet that was larger than the planet Jupiter entered out solar system and would have hit the Sun had it not been diverted by an unseen force or being that is looking out for us. Nassim believes that this comet was in fact the planet Nibiru. Okie, dokie.

    It does help to understand his theories and your posts if you don't pursue an education. It would only get in the way.

  • Jack1952

    The name, Haramein, and scientist in the same sentence. Only someone who believes an education is a waste of time would say something this ridiculous. The planet Nibiru? Talk about an adolescent idea.

  • Jack1952

    How academia's claim that nuclear force is stronger than gravitational force could make anyone money puzzles me. Explain how they do this.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    no, no it is not.

    you are using your very very very limited understanding of a very complex subject and twisting it to fit your crazy beliefs.

    Nassim Haramein is NOT a reputable scientist. he has no peer reviewed pubished work. he is a crazy man who believes in Nibiru and other conspiracy theories.

    you should maybe pull your head out of your a** before you try telling off others.

    quantum physics isn't about photons or quanta it's about stealing complicated interpretations of it to support your whacked out new age philosophies....

  • http://www.facebook.com/vitanovich Petar Vitanovich

    I call bulls*** on this one. First off, your wrong about your "science", second, a scholar will most likely not recommend religion at all. Third, if you are religious like me, your religion is based on personal hopes and dreams that there just might be something more to this, and fourth, if this is your personal religion, how about stop trying to sell it like a commercial, and take the time to practice it instead, since religion is a very personal thing, even more in an ever present god disproving world, which is nothing against atheist, to me it's just like "what ever lets you sleep peacefully at night, do it", instead of trying to compare it to a science text book, which it shares NOTHING in common with, maybe you can argue history, MAYBE, but bro your talking about galaxies and s***, the like Vlatko said Muslims think the stars are placed before the sun!!! wtf???

  • http://www.facebook.com/vitanovich Petar Vitanovich

    Rashin, lay off the crack pipe brah. I know they tried to feed you that s*** in prison, but it don't fly in the real world. Your talking about a religion who's stories were openly taken from the bible, who's stories were openly taken from the torah. So IF, AND IF they are real, you got the third edition, filled with the most bulls***, but thats taking into account that all the stories were real. But you said Mohammed was illiterate, doesnt that mean some dumb f*** camel humper friend of his could of wrote it in the lonely desert? Just him and his friend sitting there, copying shit from the torah and bible. Did I mention it gets lonely in the desert?

  • POZZIMYSTIC

    your spelling is horrible!

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    what are you trying to say?

  • http://www.facebook.com/XRamisX Ramey Maxwell

    I think alot of people need to open their minds to Possibilities beyond your own theories.

  • http://www.facebook.com/XRamisX Ramey Maxwell

    religion may not be the problem, but narrow minds are...

  • http://princejaka.wordpress.com princeton

    @ jonathan..
    black holes are not real.. they are purely mathematical and hypothetical...

    don't mean to reopen the argument, but

    black holes have never been proven to exist and fail the basic test of logic... ie infinite density but plasma Jets shooting out /or the fact that anything beside thee infinitely dense exists.

    anyway.. i feel bad arguing with someone who believes gravity to be the strongest force around when kitchen magnets defy the pull of an entire planet.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_HA42YNQVGFO56YPY6F6O4OOR2M Rashin

    @ avd420

    on the surface many of Nietzche's aphorism appears to have contradictions
    but upon closer look, they actually don't

    In the same fashion, the untrained eye when reading the Quran appears to have contradictions when there really isn't.

    Not only that, Nietzches work is nothing compared to Quran. It doesn't cover the vast amount of information that is covered in the Quran ex: Rights of Women, Property Rights, etc.

  • Eniki520

    then why is evolution till a theory and the theory of gravity? not everything ca be proven. there is a lot of unexplainable things in the universe.

  • avd420

    @rashin

    It's not the contradictions in the Quran that bother me. It is its overall content.

    I think there are many better books out there written by people who don't claim to be a prophet. If that's literally the word of god well... he may benefit from some lessons in literature.

    But hey, that's just my opinion, and I could be wrong. Perhaps the Quran is the greatest thing in the world, but personally, I find it to be scary, poorly-written, full of contradictions, scientifically inaccurate, plagiarised, and sometimes, downright comical.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_UGQBYHVIGD2RVOINFNEERIDAUM April

    "We" may "suck" but at least we can spell!

    I find that far too many religious persons aren't razor sharp upstairs. And they don't question many "things."

    Not just religion or the presence or absence of God...but so many just don't THINK! They don't know what's going on in the world or they know very little. THAT IS SIMPLY FOOLISH. Why do so many religious people JUST ACCEPT WHAT THEY ARE TOLD? How do you get through life that way?! ;-0

    They are like a gaggle of sheep...following blindly....baaahhh....baaahhh! Ugh...

  • aloub

    you better read the qu'ran before making any useless comment !!
    that the prophet had contacts with the jews or the christians has nothings to do with facts that you are talking about !!!
    and if you wanna make a point you better explain, because i don't see the well known facts for human way before the qur'an that you are talking about !!! i do know about facts that science did prouve in the last decades !!! like the expansion of the universe ( And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47) the identity from fingerprints, the formation of the rain, the sun's trajectory....
    there is more if you want !!!!!!!!!!
    and seriously, i would love to heard yours myths and scientifics errors if you can prouve it !!!
    I'm not christian, but i respect every religion and i respect christianity and the bible ( i read it) as i respect the qur'an and islam !
    you may need to read some scientists work !!

  • verseinu

    @Atheist13

    You did say geek…look at that…doh!

    Talk about the brain being guided by its believe system to see something that isn't there. Thank you for the evidence to show the errors in my perception!

    There is a new toothpaste - Crest reasoning based on evidentiary findings which support or discredit previous evidence (its a mouthful....!), it can handle any of those clingy pre socratics.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=689912261 John Christopher McDonald

    Sir, if you would kindly head over to the religion section of this website, you will see quite a few documentaries that make you feel a bit safer and less threatened. However, the reason you see a bias in the content of this site is that documentaries are usually created by people who want some sort of change. Well, religious folk do not like change, and most have a tendency to hide and pretend that other ideas don't exist. So, continue watching, and don't forget to think critically in every situation. ("Do I feel like this from my own experiences, or do I feel like this because someone wants me to")

  • pkunzip

    I fckn' love this! Oh go on with your debates, can never be won either way. Discussing rationally with religious people is utterly pointless, since you would have to have some element of insanity installed in order to be religious at all. Be happy and enjoy people, and I'll see y'all in hell, I guess :)

    Or in the words of Jesus himself:
    Me so holy, me love you long time!

  • verseinu

    That's all well and good, and I totally agree. But we can't open our minds so much that it begins to collect all the garbage floating around. We need some filter to determine what is acceptable, creative, progressive, beneficial, etc., to us as individuals and to society at large. I think that is the argument against religious thought, there is no mental filter or process...it is merely do as your told! Faithful open-mindedness is an oxymoron.

    But what are you really saying?

    below you said "religion may not be the problem, but narrow minds are..."

    It seems all you are doing is flipping the attack on religion back against anti-religious thinking. Not exactly an open minded stance.

  • Sion88

    Rights of Women, eh?

    "(Women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them."

    "Marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four."

    "As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them."

    Like these maybe? Could you perhaps elaborate on these or should I proceed to the heavy artillery?

  • Sion88

    Video number 10.

  • memoiandi

    ummm...... Let's look at two contradicting statements: The earth is flat. The earth is a cube. It doesn't matter if they contradict themselves because they are both wrong. One crappy statement contradicting another crappy statement. Who cares? In the end, it's all crap.

    And by the way: rights of women? In the quran? Are you sure you are reading the right book 'cause it sure doesn't look that way to most people.

    By the way, I really love the way you have to be "trained" to be able to not read a book the way it was written. That should tell you something about religion if nothing else.

  • Achems_Razor

    Good stuff, they always seem to want 15 dollars, but will usually settle for 5 dollars. (LOL)

  • ZarathustraSpeaks

    Very simply, whatever you think on the subject, religion and faith can be the same but just as well can be completely seperate "ideas". Please try to keep this in mind in any discussion although I know its always easier to target the war and money religious crowd than discuss the actual concept itself. One of the tenants of most "faiths" is man has always been and always will be weak and flawed and faith is a source of redemption but never a cure for our humanity.

  • Atheist13

    This is just the funniest thing I have seen in ages, I challenge anyone to watch it and not laugh at some point. You might however find yourself crying at some of the deadly serious points it makes.

    ” The Father, the Son and the Holy Toast.” Lol

    Ted and the Big Bang. Lmao

    Enjoy.

    Unkeep the faith

  • Justin Drakes

    Religious people aren't insane. It's just that the pattern-recognition part of their brains tells them there's a piece missing from the puzzle that is life. I don't agree with that assertion, but I understand it, and acknowledge that it has nothing to do with whether they're 'sane' or not. Try being more understanding if you actually want to be an effective proponent for change.

    Right now you're just coming off as a jerk.

  • Atheist13

    @Rashin

    "Not only that, Nietzches work is nothing compared to Quran."

    Comparing Nietzsche (PBUH) to the Quran is like comparing diamonds to faeces. One is highly valuable and one stinks.

    Unkeep the faith

  • Achems_Razor

    Then the man, Prof Richard Dawkins must be a jerk according to you. He goes much further in saying that religion is a virus, a sickness of the mind of vast proportions. And yes, calls the religee's insane.

  • TheRealMax

    Untestable transcendent reality V Testable reality,

    Oh my gosh, should we flip a coin.

    They wish. Its not a question of 50/50, as we know,
    flowers die
    snakes do not talk
    our position is not the center

    And yes I'm really pissed at these idiots.

  • clay dawson

    I'll grant it, there is a "piece missing from the puzzle that is life."

    A non-believer can have this exact same assertion. Indeed, there are many missing pieces. The crucial difference is that people of most prevalent religions create and place a piece to fill this void at the very foundation of their perception. Oftentimes the consequences of this altogether unwarranted tendency are detrimental. In the cases of abrahamic religions, each has its own [puzzle piece] and believes with full faith in the veracity of their conception above all others. This separation invariably leads to violence.

    I am very understanding, many religions however do not have the capacity of critically assessing the practical repercussions of their beliefs on mankind. For them, there is not a missing piece. They have found the piece once missing and are determined to ACT on its behalf. The degree of insanity is proportional to the degree of willingly suppressing the human rational faculty.

  • dave.eggermont

    Very entertaining. Treats superstition like it is supposed to be treated, with a lot of ridicule.

  • dave.eggermont

    You make reasonable people dislike you.

  • TheRealMax

    Or even, 'Here having a party'.
    I have.....

  • Guest

    It would have been hard to say it with any more tact!
    az

  • Guest

    lol!
    Go CnN go!
    az

  • hasib faryabi

    Im focusing on easing the tension among crazy people who believe that posting what they believe as intelligent comments on the validity of religion or the notion of God on a documentary site is going to change anyone's mind.

    My friend you yourself are making the same hypocritical mistakes of that you are accusing me. You say that i am the only one judging other people or talking about their lives, you must be blind or just retarded, you yourself started to judge me and have you read any other comment? Its all about "your religion is this" and " your lack of faith is that". By the way, righteousness and honesty do not stem from truth only, its about morals and virtues. Posting Ad hominem attacks on other peoples comments shows how weak your argument is and the fact that the only way you can weaken mine is through a fallacy of logic.

    How about you try to not be a hypocritical a**hole who tries to act smart yet his logic fails him? How does that sound?

  • lex lexich

    it was never really banned, just not recomanded for the comrades in the party... people still went to churches and perform other (silly) rituals, and after soviet union -religion became mandatory in the new -nation based- state, thats why it flourished... same shit in the ex yugoslavia...

  • hasib faryabi

    Ive read some of your other comments and it seems that you have a knack of trying to use your very limited knowledge to try to come up with arguments yet your lack of logic causes you to have many ridiculous fallacies in those very same arguments. How about you do a little bit more research and learn how to rebut a argument without being completely hypocritical, then maybe we can have a civilized discussion?

    And by the way your first argument is completely incorrect as you are asserting that anything that is not proven is an assumption and therefore ignorant. It is not the assumption but rather you who is ignorant.
    Your second comment shows that you are judging me and mentioning my works which is part of my life so your doing the very thing that your accusing me of.
    Thirdly, your using very weak personal attacks to try to weaken my argument which is a logical fallacy, merely a weak arguments struggles to try to sound better.
    And finally righteousness and honesty do not only come from truth but more from morals and virtues, so this means you seem to have a hard time with vocabulary also.

  • lex lexich

    i am not sure that having (more) offspring has anything to do with evolution, it has more to do with adaptation in the new (environmental) conditions...
    @alen j. -nacism would be 'enhanced natural selection' hahaha

  • lex lexich

    maybe they are not insane, but they are not sane either

  • hasib faryabi

    If you are asserting that the Qur'an is a poorly written piece scripture then you must be on some really heavy drugs. How about you do a little research and find out the facts. University profs and world renowned scholars who dedicate their lives to deciphering texts such as the Qur'an hail it as a masterpiece and they are not Muslims, they are usually atheists or Christians. Ive yet to see a highly qualified person discredit the Qur'an as a brilliantly written work. Im sure the university profs and scholars know much more than you and i do about it. As for the content or the validity of it, its pretty dumb to discuss such a complicated work over a comment on a website.

  • jonathan jackward

    1. there is no man in the clouds slapping you in the nuts with a rubber band for eternity, but science has proven that the unified field of consciousness exists and is the fabric of existence so god in the sense of unification does exist but never as something separate.
    2.anything discovered 100 years ago or last month may be disproved by now, but it may have not been indoctrinated by society, because above the truth the people with the most money control the consensus you are a child to believe otherwise. you can see it in a group of 10 people or a million the people that have the control will not and cannot give that up for the truth, therefore what's accepted as the truth by society will disregard any new information that would drastically change control on the planet . this is not opinion you can study psychology of the mind as proof.
    3.any scientist studying the newest information regarding quantum mechanics (double slot test)and the unified field of consciousness (level below quantum) knows as fact, the observer and the environment interact with each other to be reality, everything is a singularity at its heart a atom you me the universe a black hole , when you calculate the math it's inarguable consciousness is the foundation of reality. the universe is a simulation that consciousness has created, and participates in to advance by spitting off from one unified field of self interacting consciousness , into the individual be it an atom , or you and me. FACT

  • His Forever

    You must not live in a country where they can litterally KILL you, like I do. Yes, bravery is required! And a little bit of caution and politeness goes a long way too.

  • His Forever

    That was good information, Vlatko. Thanks for the website. I may disagree with atheists, but I rarely worry about expressing my true opinion openly to them--not so with Islam. Peace to you!

  • His Forever

    And . . . . .

    You forgot to capitalize the first letter in your sentence! LOL ;-)

  • pkunzip

    Ah, that's where you're wrong, my love.
    I don't want to be an effective proponent for change, I'm quite happy being a jerk.
    If an adult has an imaginary friend and believe in all the funky things the bible wants you to, well then, that person would come of as insane in my eyes. Granted, there is of course elements such as brainwashing, culture and such, but in my eyes, there would have to lack some kind of rational thinking not to come to the conclusion that all the things promted in the bible, might not ring true.

    And by the way, speaking about coming of as a jerk, YOU tell ME (not even suggest, nay, you TELL me) how I should think and how I should present my case? Uhm, seems like the kind of rhetoric tricks used by religious leaders. Think this, write that, or else... So in other words, thank you for the insight, but I'd rather think for myself. I'll try to be less jerk-ish if that makes your day, but I'll still stand by my statement about religion and insanity being fu*k buddies :D

  • Atheist13

    @C_and_N

    Thanks for your comment.

    “You must not live in a country where they can litterally KILL you, like I do.”

    You can be literally killed in any country of the world. Just one nut job is all it takes. Bravery is not required, just the courage of your convictions that something has to be said or done.

    You said this on the same thread.

    ”Rarely do I ever want the atheists to come out on top, but in this case I would.”

    I wonder why? Is it because your God is better than his?

    As for caution and politeness, I use it where applicable.

    “May your God go with you” Dave Allen (Irish Comedian and Atheist) 1936 -2005. Sorely missed.

    Unkeep the faith

  • Guest

    Here is my view, as it applies to most cases: Literally, they're brainwashed, and the people who have the code words to immediately release them from it lie far back in their childhoods, where they can't be reached any longer. I know from personal experience just how difficult it can be to break away from a childhood of indoctrination, but it can be done sometimes. Not everyone who was thrown into the mythical forest of fairy tales when they were children is forever lost in them, but the way out is going to be fraught with very real monsters, if they're even willing to try escaping. Frankly, I know the labyrinthine paths and horrors better than some, and I intend to keep throwing out whatever crumbs I can for those who may be looking, including, sometimes, those with humor at their core, since monsters can't withstand that above everything else.

  • His Forever

    Atheist 13: Yes, actaully. You pointed out my bias very precisely. I think Islam is decpetion at best--and that's being exceedingly polite. But, I feel true Christianity is life itself---so, bluntly, "Yes, my God is better than theirs." You cought me in my double standard---I freely admit it. ;-)

    P.S. May I request you get an icon? I scan comments by icons. You're much too personable for a "shadow man".

  • Justin Drakes

    Yeah, Dawkins is a bit of a jerk. What of it? To blindly idolize and hold him up as some sort of authority on religious people would be irresponsible, don't you think? Atheism isn't a religion, so why do you think you can attack a proponent of it and make some sort of statement? I've never read a book by Dawkins; I watched a few of his speeches and found them to be entertaining, but certainly not something to live my life by.

    I can't even figure out what you're trying to prove by that statement, Achem. Please explain why I should care what a person who I have no attachment to says?

    ( Is there any way to attach the responses to the bottom of the reply thread?? )

  • His Forever

    Vlatko: Is the virgin birth you mentioned separate from the virgin birth of Christ as taught in the Bible? I've not yet heard that about Islam, but I've heard of some of the others.

  • Justin Drakes

    Privately created and maintained websites have a duty to be non-biased, now? I'd be interested to hear an argument for that. Putting aside John Christopher's point about there being a whole Religion section on this site (with more documentaries than a lot of other sections like, say, Philosophy), where exactly is it written that this website has to do anything other than serve it's own interests? If you feel left out, try hosting a Top Religious Documentary Films dot com or something, it's a wide, wide internet.

  • verseinu

    Faith is the grease for religions gears to smoothly run the automaton. Religion is the old jam jar holding faiths rusty nails.
    Faith is the mirage in religions desert.

    They are two different concepts, but they are basically the two arms of a theological mind-trap holding down the flourishing of humanity,

    "One of the tenants of most "faiths" is man has always been and always will be weak and flawed and faith is a source of redemption but never a cure for our humanity."

    ....Is this supposed to be a virtue?

  • Guest

    Atheists take on all religions, Islam is the hardest because islamists are the most constricted, and the most dangerous to cross.
    I have traveled many Muslim countries, once through Morocco during Ramadan...Boy! do they take themselves seriously to the point of punching each other because of the lack of cigarettes, sex and food (which is the easiest to do without), even chewing gum in public got me in trouble once.
    az

  • Guest

    i agree with the suggestion for an avatar....and by the way...who ever doesn't like what i write, as a rule...i am very easy to skip or scroll pass...yellow, red, orange with a V for loVe.
    az

  • Justin Drakes

    Ridicule is actually pretty harmful when you're essentially attacking the basis of somebody's psychology. Would you ridicule a child for their superstitions about stepping on a crack, or being good for presents on Christmas? "Hey, Timmy, that whole Santa Claus thing is ridiculous, what's the matter with you, anyways?? Don't you have a brain of your own?? There has never been an observable instance of a human being with the capacity to shrink themselves to fit down a chimney, hahaha."

    But the child, once grown, is fair game for your ridicule? At which specific age does it become appropriate to deride somebody for their beliefs, no matter how 'ridiculous'?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of religion. But religion doesn't encourage petty bickering any more than the majority of atheists I've met do. It's simply a matter of immaturity on both sides of the issue. I may have ridiculed my younger cousins for believing in Santa Claus when I was 10 years old, but that was many years ago, and can see that as the spiteful, petty action that it really was. Insomuch as the analogy can be drawn, I was effectively 'atheistic' on the subject of Santa Claus. And obviously I was correct, there being no empirical evidence for the existence of such an entity. But being a childish prat about it certainly didn't mark me as the wise and mature person.

  • Sion88

    How is it that a being so much greater than man behaves, speaks and acts exactly like man. In fact, it behaves more primitively than many a man by this age's standards. It propounds primeval notions like pride and vengeance. It requires utter submission and worship from it's subjects. Indeed, it requires his subjects to have "fear of god". It judges, rewards and punishes and it is utterly malevolent.

    It murders children:

    "Elisha did not call out the bears, God did. Two female bears came out and tore up forty-two young men." (Bible)

    It supports slavery:

    "O ye who believe! Let your slaves, and those of you who have not come to puberty, ask leave of you at three times (before they come into your presence)." (Qur'an)

    It rules through terror and revels in the torture of it's subjects:

    "Allah allows some to disbelieve in the afterlife, and to take pleasure in their disbelief, so that he can torment them forever after they die." (Qur'an)

    The list of such atrocious statements is indeed long.

    How is it that you will not allow yourself to consider that the ideas propounded in these scriptures are but those of primitive men attempting to explain what they don't understand in terms of that which they do?

    Because if such a being existed, I would see it pacified.

  • Achems_Razor

    Same reason as to why I should not care to live my life to something I have no attachment to, (any religions) even though have read the books. I do not blindly idolize anything, especially some books written in the bronze ages.

    You say Dawkins is a bit of a jerk? And you have not even read any of his books? Ah! again if all else fails, resort to ad hominem attacks? By that remark, not that I really care, I take it you are religious, Yes?

  • ZarathustraSpeaks

    You must have tremendous faith to believe you have access to absolute truth about our existence. If you have no faith in anything beyond empirical evidence then all you accept as true must be a byproduct of the evolutionary process of which the only purpose is to propagate the species by “any means necessary” even when that means letting us think our brain and sense of hearing, eyesight smell and touch are the only way to search for “truth”. The concept that eliminating religion and faith are holding down the “flourishing of humanity” is contrary to any objective observation of the “nature of man”. The flawed nature of man in my view exist with or without a belief system or faith in a “greater being” These flaws can always be used and manipulated by any group or person for their own gain. Religion may be the “opiate of the masses” but faith does not have to be a denial of science only a hope for something greater that is not always seen by human eyes. To answer your question no, mans flaws are not a virtue but neither are they created by faith. They exist with or without it.

  • Justin Drakes

    I did also mention that I watched some of his speeches. I am not religious. If you perceive my attempts to point out that religious people aren't insane, and my opinion that Dawkins could use a bit of polish when it comes to being an actual help in religious debates as indicative of religiosity on my part, I'd honestly suggest you rethink your thought processes.

    The fact that you seem to have a problem with me thinking somebody of the atheistic bent is a jerk, when it clearly has nothing to do with the merits of atheism as whole, tells me you're one of the many, many fanatical atheists out there who make me a bit ashamed to label myself 'atheist'. "Don't question anybody who's part of the tribe." is a very dogmatic position, regardless of who says so.

    Insinuating that the urge towards feeling part of a collective automatically qualifies somebody as 'insane' is something that a jerk WOULD do. It's also one of the many tactics of religious people to describe anybody who differs from them. It's also an ad hominem attack against a whole spectrum of society. Did you take any of that into account before you grabbed your keyboard?

  • Achems_Razor

    Ha,Ha. so now I am a fanatical atheist? actually that has a nice ring to it, so I will take it, better than being a fanatical religee, or happy-clapper.

    I have no problem with you saying any atheist is a jerk, I even know some, except you saying Dawkins is a jerk without you really knowing where he is at. Maybe you were told by some religious people Eh?

    To me there is only 2 tribes, religious and non-religious, no in-between, no Pascals wager stuff.

    "Ad hominem attack on a whole spectrum of society"??? did not know that religee's where a whole spectrum of society, stop the press!! evolution is wrong! a new species!

  • verseinu

    NO. There is no absolute anything (well there is absolute zero...and vodka...i digress); knowledge or truth. We are blindly fumbling around in the dark. What there IS, is a greater and greater achievement in the accuracy of the theories used to describe the universe. Faith (in whatever...anything) serves only to divert one from this method of coming to grips with the reality we find ourselves in.

    "You must have tremendous faith to believe you have access to absolute truth about our existence."

    What I think I have, is a humble acceptance that this is the way it is. And, why would I hope for something greater, just take a look at the Universe around us. It is spectacular in its complexity and simplicity, and awe inspiring in it aesthetic beauty.

    A hope for something greater comes across as almost a sense of entitlement and arrogance. Is this not enough, this astounding universe we inhabit.

    Your use of the term 'flawed' implies that there is a perfect way of being, and whether you mean it or not this becomes a slippery slop toward religious belief systems. Your injecting morality where non exists. How is a new born baby 'flawed'? How do you arrive at that conclusion without the belief in one of the big 3 religions?

    There is no absolute or perfect anything. Your 'flaws' are natural human psychology. Every individual needs to work with the quirks of their personality that don't always run smoothly up against the social fabrics they find themselves in. One can attempt to learn from and understand these quirks to live more accurately in the world around them (and potentially more happily), or one can hope for this to happen and fall back on faith and become complacent. Hence faith serving to hold down the flourishing of humanity.

    "the evolutionary process of which the only purpose is to propagate the species by “any means necessary” "

    I wonder about your understanding of evolution. That is an over simplification and, again, you are inject morality where non exists.

  • Atheist13

    @C_and_N

    Thanks for your honesty and kind words. I happen to think that you are an example of bravery and the courage of your convictions. I may not agree with what you have to say but would defend your right to say it. That we have fundamental differences of opinion does not debar us from having mutual respect. My religious friends put up with my rants against religion, I hope you can too. As for the avatar thing, I’m on it. Thanks for the suggestion.

    Unkeep the faith

  • Atheist13

    @Azilda

    Thanks for your comment.

    I think your avatar and comments are like a breath of fresh air through this choking atmosphere of pomposity that pervades TDF. Your witty, poetic, insightful and grounding views are so needed round here. I hope to have an avatar soon but I don’t think it could ever be as striking as yours. You’re V for love explanation is nice but I’m not buying it. I prefer to stick with my own imaginings of what you’re up to. Lol. And the lipstick! Redder than red, I love it. On a side issue I think you should compose a little ditty imploring Ozycba1 to come back, he might be looking in. I hardly know him but I miss his contributions.

    Unkeep the faith

  • dave.eggermont

    Thank you for your reply. First of all you should know I don't believe that a child who fancies a superstition should be treated with ridicule. I'm talking about adults with responsibilities.

    Personally I would never suggest to a child that there are things out there like a santa claus that keep an eye out for them because this would not teach them to be responsible. If I meet a kid who still believes in santa claus I know sooner or later he will grow up and eventually be confronted with the truth so I don't mind.

    This however does not apply to major superstitions, most children aren't even capable of understanding what a superstition is before they get indoctrinated in religion. Grown-ups should know the difference and if they don't then it always tickles my funny bone.

    I hope I have cleared myself up for you.

  • Guest

    @ Atheist13 and @ Az

    I have to admit, I'm with you about her comments...and the interpretation of her avatar, lol.
    (don't be mad at me, Az!)

  • Guest

    "God is a comedian, playing to an audience too afraid to laugh."

    I know you know not to expect many here to do anything other than fall right in line with that aphorism.

    Still, you do what you can...

  • StillRV

    @Rashin; Anyone on this site will tell you that I openly defend peoples right to faith and religion. I have no organized faith of my own but also allow that others may benefit from organized faith. However, some of your assertion are pretty wild.
    You say many men have tried and failed to write a book such as the Quran? You may want to look into Scientology. That faith based on a book written by a piss poor science fiction author/failure just continues to grow and grow and it it only decades old. If allowed to mature and grow who knows it may rival the other great religions of the world in it's numbers. Did you know that one of the premises of that faith is that people are filled with the spirits of long dead little aliens who crashed here while running from an evil galactic overlord?
    Seriously the one and only problem with organized religions is the tendency of it's followers to take literal meaning from the texts. Religion is philosophy and as such is full of metaphors that teach practical life lessons. Some of those lessons are no longer practical. Pork and shell fish are not evil they contain, at times, microbes which cause illness. At the time of the writing of the religious texts that was unknown so simply saying they were evil helped guide the people from dieing of diarrhea because they ate a ham sandwich and some oysters. The same could be said of many of the lessons taught.
    If any man, yourself included wants to have faith in a religion as a spiritual guide post to their life, I would not ever hold that against them. It is when those people allow their faiths to blind them and drag them backward in time by thousands of years of progress that is infuriating.

  • http://twitter.com/unyk13 ???????????? s

    Awesome documentary

  • ZarathustraSpeaks

    verseinu, what meaning does "inspiring in its aesthetic beauty" have in a meaningless existence on a tiny rock in the vastness of the universe. If this is enough for you I cant judge its validity but our existence seems pointless and futile to me if this is all our short lives have to offer. After all whatever "beauty" you see is created only in your mind which somehow creates a standard for what is beautiful(a ocean sunrise) and what is not (maggots consuming a human corpse-or at least the smell) They may both be interesting to but not aesthetically pleasing. If you "accept" every living organism in the world is only a product of evolution then to me you have to accept the result has no meaning beyond whatever process created it (chemical reaction or DNA change) You can try to assign whatever meaning you like but this will always be a product of your brains attempt to avoid the fact that your life has no meaning beyond trying to sustain your life. It sounds circular and it is. The idea that humanity is going to "pull itself up by the bootstraps" and create a meaningful existence now that we have enough intelligence to do so is laughable to me. You can never escape the randomness of the universe no matter how hard we try to make a difference in the world. Sooner or later an astroid or a exploding sun will end life on this earth and any other life that may exist somewhere else. So the goal of saving humanity so it may "flourish" untimately has no meaning. None of this does anything to support a faith beyond ourselves. My point is that what someone believes as an aetheist is an acceptance that life has no meaning. I refuse to accept this even if that says I refuse to accept the "Truth" I have never seen a convincing argument that proves no being greater than ourselves exist. I have seen a multitude of arguments which tell me why everything we know based on empirical evidence indicates there is no reason for faith. Truth seems like a concept only a God could have the final answer on if their is a God. We can only approach the subject from "the skin we're in". A better question is why believe in a unknowable God?
    A baby is born flawed because a baby is no more or no less human than an adult. It does not mean a baby has "sinned" or intentionally erred in any way. It means only that a baby is human with all the inherent traits which we all have. We cannot escape this. The greatest people that ever lived still had traits which created "evil" thoughts or desires. Do you really think we can eliminate jealosy or greed even if we recognize the need to not act on those desires? We may curtail them or hold back out of the fear of punishment or peer pressure but we will always carry them with us. Even if someone could on their own willpower never act on them they would be "devoured by the herd" around them which will keep humanity from "flourishing".

  • verseinu

    If you "accept" every living organism in the world is only a product of evolution then to me you have to accept the result has no meaning beyond whatever process created it (chemical reaction or DNA change)

    I openly accept this, and add that not even the process imbues any meaning....it is in this that we have the freedom/responsibility to make that meaning, and it is here the adventure of the human condition takes place.

    To equate meaning with evolution is a non-starter. Evolution is a description of the process that drives life. It is like asking what the meaning of how you cross your t’s and dot your i’s is. The meaning is to be found in what you do with them, and so it is with life.

    I think you are speaking to an existential angst, and I think there are two ways it can be approached (someone more versed in philosophy may have something else to say). One can either face up to the fact that we are but a spot on a mot of dust floating in the universe and accept the responsibility of creating a meaningful life, or one can retreat into hope and faith for something more.

  • verseinu

    Carl Sagan - The Man, said it best....

    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

    The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds.

    Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

    The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.

    It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.

    -- Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot, 1994

  • verseinu

    i'm like'n the avatar!

  • ZarathustraSpeaks

    Yes Carl Sagan is a eloquent writer and thinker. I have read and seen much of his work and went to hear him speak in Atlanta years ago. I just dont see how you create "meaning" in a meaningless universe. As incredible as the universe seems the more we learn about it questions remains "what's the point" if there is no connecting fabric between all of it? What seems "mind bending" to us is only a standard created by our brain. The same way a computer can always be faster or better in what it does is almost like your argument is saying we can create computers that make life for some people better so now a computer can have meaning in its life also. If you want to eliminate pain in the world then create a "super bug" that kills all humans and all pain will be gone for humans. Inversely, if you can cure hunger and disease in the world then life will have more meaning. None of these create "meaning" they only make life more or less tolerable. Again, I dont claim to have any answers to these questions. I just refuse to give up on hope for something more. Apparently Carl Sagan remained steadfast in his beliefs as he talked about the religous friends he had that offered their support and prayers while he was dying of cancer. He said he appreciated the efforts but did not change his way of thinking about life and death. Maybe he just saw things differently than I do. In either case I reject the argument that somehow humans will flourish when all religions are rejected (if ever) This seems like a cause Atheist try to "hang their hats on" but if ever realized will only cause them to ask "ok what do we do now?"

  • Guest

    @ verseinu

    He wasn't Carl Sagan for nothing, was he? Isaac Asimov once said that Sagan was "one of only two people" he ever met that he knew was more intelligent than he was... And if you know anything about Asimov, you know what a compliment that was, lol.

    I miss them both, very, very much.
    (and Clarke...)

  • Atheist13

    @verseinu

    Thanks, yours is cool too.

  • verseinu

    @Pysmythe

    It's funny, I just finished the Foundation series! That is a compliment!

    Not only was he intelligent...he was a Teacher! The man is a Hero!!!

  • bengillott

    They really should think about re-naming this 'The unthinking atheist' since it has confused what is written in the bible with the crazed ramblings of a fool with no idea what he is talking about.
    I would have expected something a little more objective and purposeful, since you have the whole Bible to pick on but all they could come up with was random attacks on passages from the bible that have been completely twisted, distorted and presented falsely.

    Looks like the makers of these videos could be looking for a job in the Vatican, the Pope and his cronies have been proudly distorting the bible for nearly 2000 years and I hear the pay is pretty good to!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_WE244ANGT5C67O5BRTLJCJLK2E Tom

    Please provide some examples of passages presented that are "completely twisted, distorted and presented falsely."

  • Atheist13

    @Tom

    Good question!

  • SurvivorVeteran

    Name one....

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1343506882 Maria Lopez

    Excellent Documentary! Any person with half a brain exercising critical thinking would see the falsity of the Bibles. Well done :)

  • fonbindelhofas

    @ Ben keep reading that peace of crap and think your way, u know beter

  • fonbindelhofas

    all religions is a master plan of any form of power to live in paridase and to tell the rest of the people that they will live in paridase 2 but only in graves.

  • verseinu

    I reject the argument that somehow humans will flourish when all religions are rejected (if ever) This seems like a cause Atheist try to "hang their hats on" but if ever realized will only cause them to ask "ok what do we do now?"

    Much of the world is governed by secular values, so in one sense your fear has already been realized. You are right though, the question of 'what do we do now' does come up:

    What do we do now that medicine has given us such longevity?

    What does she do now that she has control over her reproduction?

    What do we do now with this wealth of information, how can I better understand the world?

    I don't see that question as the problem you assume it to be.

    I just refuse to give up on hope for something more.

    There's no arguing with that....literally.

  • His Forever

    Yes, I wish Oz would come back too. I've gotten my feelings hurt several times---it comes and it goes; it's part of being human.

    Note:
    This is an edited comment. Is there any way to delete a comment?

  • His Forever

    That was very helpful information about Mary in the Koran. Thank you.

  • Atheist13

    @C_and_N

    I think if you just delete all the text the system replaces the post with “comment removed”. Ask Vlatko if that doesn’t work.

    You’re right about being hurt as part of being human. I think it is strongly linked to how much one cares, and often the one that cares the most gets hurt the most. Oz is obviously a caring and sensitive individual. He reminds me of Stephen Fry (look how sensitive he was to the slightest criticism). I hope he’s back soon, I know and he knows that he’s made of sterner stuff and can rise above what appears a trifling matter.

  • verseinu

    It boogles the mind trying to understand how seemingly intelligent and reasonable people can believe in such trash. These people knowingly and intentionally stop trying to know. The degree the delusion can take is astounding. I wonder if one day religiosity will be considered a mental illness?

  • His Forever

    And for a moment, I thught you were actually talking about the Atheists! Silly me. :-(

  • His Forever

    Well, I tried, but I couldn't take much of this trash-mindedness mockumentary. I've seen people miraculously healed (doctor verified), met people that were saved by angels (more than one), and understand enough about life to know you don't blame God for the evil mankind does themselves. I've even met a woman that died (doctor verified) and met Jesus who let her listen to her young daughter's prayer to spare her mother's life before sending her back into her body. You can listen to this faithless material if you want to, but the Bible is very correct in that is says He will only be found by those that seek Him with their whole heart.

    Oh, and the last testimony I listened to was of a former Muslim that nearly died himself, met Jesus in person and was miraculously healed by Him (astounding the doctors). He also had a brother who did die. He prayed for God to show mercy to his brother (already dead) and his brother was resurrected in the morgue thousands of miles away. Needless to say, he too became a Christian also ASAP after nearly spending an eternity way from God! Credit:

    "Guest: Nasir Siddiki Monday, July 18, 2011
    Meet Nasir Siddiki, a Muslim that did not believe in Jesus! Until he [nearly] died and was raised from the dead--now he believes nothing is impossible for those who believe." Sid Roth Ministries radio archives.

    Yep. No proof there is a God anywhere, according to this mockumentary, but like Verseinu says below: "It boogles the mind trying to understand how seemingly intelligent and reasonable people can believe in such trash. These people knowingly and intentionally stop trying to know. The degree the delusion can take is astounding."

    Very well said.

  • verseinu

    Nope....not at all...not even for a second.

    Yes - Silly you :)

  • Achems_Razor

    Charles, a person can pray to a milk bottle and be miraculously healed, can pray to "Holy Batman" and be miraculously healed.

    Your Jesus apparently even finds parking spots for people among all the trillions of prayers everyday.

    If there are any gods I'm sure they are more busier handling all the housekeeping involved in making...Quilted Multiverse...Inflationary Multiverse...Brane Multiverse...Cyclic Multiverse...Landscape Multiverse...Quantum Multiverse...Holographic Multiverse...Simulated Multiverse...Ultimate Multiverse. 10^500 other universes.

    Then to listen to the prayers of us tiny, tiny, carbon units that are so small in comparison to our universe, never mind the rest of the multiverses, that we basically become invisible! Even our Earth is nothing but a pixel in size!

  • His Forever

    Mr. Razor, I'm less familar with "milk bottle" answered prayer, but as far as God's highly divided attention, I am under the impression that if mere light can circle the earth 7 times in one second (thank you Wormhole series), then surely the mind of God can orchestrate the Ultimate Multiverse while still having an ear to turn towards, well . . . . me, and the millions like me that trust in Him.

    As always,

    Peace to you.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_WLBNEV2QH2R5SWTEELOXOJQPEM N B

    Let me start by saying I agree with what seems to be the dominant position among (thoughtful) posters to this forum: religion is absolutely absurd. The nicest thing one can say about 'faith' is that it is intellectually lazy, and it becomes increasingly evil to the extent that it tends toward dogmatism.

    However, I've always had trouble classifying my thoughts on the subject as being either 'agnostic' or 'atheist'. Perhaps this is because each word has multiple definitions as well as some common misinterpretations that further muddy the waters. I have no trouble stating that I am atheist with respect to the god or gods as described by the major religions of the world. Those so-called entities are ridiculous and it is obvious that they do not exist. On the other hand, I can't prove that there wasn't a creator of this universe, just as I can't prove that there was. That attitude is a pretty good match for one of the definitions for 'agnostic'. Unfortunately, many people interpret 'agnostic' to mean somebody that assigns equal probability to two opposing arguments. And since that sort of person tends to be somewhat closed-minded, many of them think that the only two possibilities are that 1) there is no creator or any sort, or 2) there is a creator and he is the one described by whichever religion they have been brainwashed into believing. Even worse, some will interpret an 'agnostic' as somebody that just hasn't made-up his mind yet, and therefore needs to be converted to their religion of choice.

    So I feel that I'm left without a good short answer to those who ask me to categorize myself with respect to religion. I tend to tell such people "I'm not religious" and just let them interpret that however they like. But I'm curious to hear if anybody has a good definition for the position I've described above?

  • His Forever

    Speaking of avatars, I just can figure out what your is, or why you chose it.

  • Guest

    Would be a nice Halloween costume!
    Watch out hunting season is starting pretty soon!
    az

  • verseinu

    So many anecdotes. Thank you for your stories.

    p.s. you forgot to quote the part about religious belief being a mental illness.

  • Guest

    @ C and N

    It's just some guy who made a moose head out of camping-gear. I thought it was pretty clever how he did it, is all... The antlers are actually gloves, for example. I thought it was funny, and there's no point other than that, except: If the head fits, wear it.

    @ Az

    If you see a moose up there in BC, hold off shooting a minute, okay? It could be me...

    [Not that that would be any good reason, in and of itself.]

  • Guest

    My friends and family understand who I am. Strangers will get the answer, "I don't care". And I do not care.

    Don't concern yourself with name tags. Hi! I'm Joe. And I am an atheist. Good for you Joe. I don't care. I'm Mary. Do you know God loves you? Well Mary good for God. I don't care.

    Don't worry about such trivial things. Live your life.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    Ah @Charles, so you say "doctor verified". But you never actually "witnessed" any of those miraculous healings and resurrections. You've heard them as testimonies and you blindly accept them as true without any further skeptical "investigation".

    The video above is not making things up. It's just stating what the Bible says using satire.

    Elijah (the dude with double portion of spirit) murdering kids, how to beat your slave,... that sort of stuff.

  • avd420

    Charles I'm wondering why god is not to blamed for evil, but she is to be thanked for good?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_4HRTAHZSOVJXTQ6P4UHAJU4WLQ Thomas Moore

    Science proves there must be a God - from the 1st and 2nd law of thermodynamics to irreducible complexity. Then there is morality - who would care if there weren't a conscious set of rules within us - why does everyone believe that rape is evil?

    Then there are the miracles - I've had so many - mine are usually around timing - God tells me to change something (e.g. only time ever to print out words of an old hymn - go to jail to lead Bible Study - inmate stands up and wants to sing that exact hymn, but doesn't know the words)..many more jail miracles as well.

    Then there are the four disabled girls that I've adopted - two have been miraculously healed from leukemia and throat tumors. Now doubters/haters will say what about the other two, but the point is that He is God - He can do what He wants. Most of the world's intellectuals can't "give" Him Lordship - so man takes control...and fail. Even when atheists look for purely joyful things, they go to God's nature and creation....man-made agenda's - not so much success.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_4HRTAHZSOVJXTQ6P4UHAJU4WLQ Thomas Moore

    The Declaration of Independence states "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"... If you believe in evolution, no two men are equal...and yet a tree or a whale is possibly more valuable than a man. Thank God that all men were created in His image...without this, a man can pick and choose who should be enslaved and which rights are his alone...

  • cls44l

    avd420 The evil in this world is due to man. God (I believe that everything written about God refers to Him as a male) gave you and I "free will". We create the evi9l in the world as well as the good, e.g. starving poeple, the earth produces enough food for the billions on the earth but greed of the people who control the distribution cause the starving from recei8ving their share. You and I will never understand God. He told Isaiah in 55:9 that "My ways are not your ways and my thoughts are not your thoughts. "Thinking Athist", I don't believe there is anyhone who is an athist, let him hit his finger with a hammer and the first thing out of his mouth 8is "O God". The Thinking Athist

  • avd420

    Thanks for your reply but you didn't answer my question. Unless your answer was "I don't know".

  • avd420

    I don't believe all men are created equal. I believe in equal rights for all men but I do not believe all men are created equal. Some are born into wealth, some poverty, some born with pre-determined medical conditions, some with outstanding health and resilence, some people are born mentally handicapped while others with above average intelligence.

    How is that equal? All men ARE NOT created equal.

    BTW, your rights are an illusion. And they can, and previously have been, taking away from us. So they're not rights, they are privaledges. And those with more money(power) can afford greater ones than those who don't.

    That's the way it is, I just observed it, I didn't create it.

  • http://princejaka.wordpress.com princeton

    i never say.. hi , im prince.. im an atheist...

    to say that atheism is a religion or to even call it a belief system in that category is like saying that not being part of any gang... is being a part of the non-gang gang.... that is purely ridiiculous.

    we're not a-unicornists.. or a-logical-fallacy-ists or a-error-ists.. lol or a-anythingwedontbelieveistrueorexists-ists
    rejecting a proposition due to a lack of evidence or logical consistency is called using your brain.. not a belief system.

    i never seen an atheist standing on a corner yellin at people to repent.... and try to pass their "religious" beliefs in congress as law.

    "i dont worry about such trivial things.."

    but i do worry about people who advocate my violent death and murder as well as that of my wife.. or consider a book that advocates it the wiset and most moral work of literature ever written... its serious cause for concern and I will keep an eye on them considering how vocal, active and wealthy they are..

    the world around us is littered with violence fueled by religion... happens all the time even as we speak.. so yes..its not trivial to me

    until there is an atheist manifesto calling for the death of religious people... we are not the same..

    and the advocation of my death is something i take serious.. no matter how many fake smiles and bake sales or love filled hymns and psalms they manage to pepper me with.. i know your their true colors

    i was born in africa.. and people to this day kill each other ,even young children over the same beliefs you hold... its just a matter of the environment & anything could happen when such irrattional ideas are considered eternal wisdom.

  • His Forever

    Avd420: The Bible says that every good and perfect gift comes from God---and that God sends rain (a blessing) on both the just and then unjust. All that is good comes from God--our natures of kindness and that which is most deeply human about us--all from God.

    But, if you don't any any desire to consider what Scripture says, then logic alone can tell you that God is not to blame for the evil of humankind. This life is not the end; eternity makes all things resolved and there are no raw deals in eternity.

  • His Forever

    Well, actually I have seen miracles, Vlatko--- a few at leat. My mother had asthma so bad she had to have a ventalator just to breath on a daily basis. My father was asking where she wanted to be buried when she died. A neighbor woman who was also a pastor, stopped by and saw mom using that terrible ventalator thing, and asked if she could pray. She prayed and mom was INSTANTLY healed! She never had to use it again--never! It took the family doctor 8 years to STOP asking about her asthma, and each time mom would say, "I don't have that any longer, God healed me." That was 20+ years ago. Mom has other problems, but no asthma.

    He glaccoma was also miraculously healed after prayer. The eye doctor was amazed that it had totally disappeared. Doctor varified.

    Sister Estelle Greene (whom I prayed for for months) was healed of heart disease. Doctor varified.

    Fayrene Barkeymeyer in Cottage Grove, Oregon, healed of cancer without surgery--doctor varified just two years ago. She's my long term "second mother" and she showed me the "scar tissue" where the cancer used to be but now was "gone".

    Donna Mea Davis, my close friend in church was told her daughter would die from an untreatable childhood illness in the 1950's. She was getting ready for church and couldn't find pantyhose. She broke down and cried, "God, don't you care! I can't even find pantyhose for church!"

    A MALE voice answered her from the top of the room VERBALLY, not in her mind: "Donna, pull out the bottom drawer on your chest of drawers. You'll find a pair of pantyhose there." "Oh thank you, Lord!" She did, and there they were. She spent the next hour on the floor just crying, because she knew if God cared about lost pantyhose, He cared about her daughter too. God also healed her daughter that day. Granted, I wasn't there, but I trust her testimony. Too odd not to be true! Her daughter is still living, but Donna past away last month.

    Other "minor miracles" are more common, such as God waking one family member to pray all night long for another that had a pistol in his mouth that night but just couldn't pull the trigger. Coincidence? Global conciousness? Perhaps. Or perhaps the hand of God at work. Doubters seem to get much less "evidence" than believers for the hand of God.

    Vlatko, I don't understand why God doesn't ALWAYS heal. I don't understand why good people SOMETIMES get killed in car accidents, or murdered like the cartoon pastor gunned down while praching about "divine protection" in this doc. But I know that I've seen "miracles" with my own eyes that cannot be explained away so easily.

    I'm yet to actaully see an actual resurrection (met two peoploe that have seen resurrections, however), but life is not finished yet.

    As far as Elijah and those evil kids---I don't think God would have allowed Elijah to call down a "she bear" if they had not been old enough to be evil to the core. I'm not sure about the "slave beating" comment, but I couldn't watch very much without getting physically upset, but I tried.

    Vlatko, as always, I truly respect you and your website. I try to keep my comments on-topic. Thank you for your hospitality. Sinse this was a doc directly deneying the very existence of God, I thought I'd disagree and let them know why.

    Peace to you,

    Charles B.

  • verseinu

    @ C_and_N

    If these cases happened as you say, then that is a wonderful change for the better for these people. But, when you say 'doctor verified' all that really means is that the doctor verified that the glaucoma in your mothers eyes was no longer there, or that ms. Greenes heart disease improved. The doctors verification of the physical improvement has no relation to your assumed cause; prayer.

    There have been experiments with prayer to see if they have any effect, with no significant relationship found. You could say that doesn't discount the possibility of god answering prayers. That then begs the question why is god so selective. It's good you also see the problem with this question (please see no sarcasm here, it is merely an acknowledgement of you comment!)

    It is incredibly difficult to find cause and effect relationships anywhere in the natural world, though with scientific investigation they can be discovered (or to as closely an approximation as can be achieved).

    For example, whose to say the behaviour of a butterfly in the garden at the same time of the prayer wasn't the cause of the healing. It's natural for humans to assume that if an event directly preceded a change in something, then that event must have been the cause of the change.

    The placebo effect (without knowing any of the specific medical treatment these people were receiving) is probably a much more reasonable explanation of the events you have described.

    Too odd not to be true!

    I'm sorry, but this is just lazy thinking.

  • His Forever

    Wow,Thomas! Good for you. That was inspiring.

    Believers often see miracles that we know are the hand of God even in everyday events. Non-believers see none even when presented with astounding evidence for healings, etc. like your two daughters' healings.

    We see what we believe or don't see what we refuse to believe in. It's that simple.

    P.S.

    My 2 year-old daughter was diagnosed (possibly) with primary TB a few months ago from two different sources. We prayed, and went to see more doctors and trusted between the prayer and the doctors we would make wise decisions.

    To make a very long story short---she's 100% better/healed. At one time she had a goose egg sized ball of puss in her neck--very scary. We had to walk our talk recently and have come out better for the process. God still answers prayers. I think the TB was a misdiagnosis, actually, but we have had several people die from it in our neighborhood just last month.

    Keep the faith,

    Charles B.

  • verseinu

    Your not serious? Science proving god exists, I would doubt even most believers would stand behind you on that one.

    Irreducible complexity - so your an ID'er. Haven't the spankings you've received in court been enough. The doc 'The end of God?" show's a religee arguing (very successfully) against this pathetic scientific....ahem....argument.

    So your telling me if you didn't have the word of god hog tied to your consciousness you wouldn't believe rape was wrong? So, you don't actually believe rape is wrong. You believe god said rape is wrong, therefor you don't do it.

  • His Forever

    Verseinu: I'll try and watch this whole documentary as I have time and get back to you within a couple of days. I think you're misusing the term "lazy thinking" as I've not been lazy or indolent in any of my thinking. Like my favorite quote from Princess Bride: "I don't think that means what you think it means!"

    That and "As you wiiiiiish!" :-)

  • cls44l

    I don't know very much and I( regret I didn't answer your question. I guess I missed the point. Please repeat your question.

  • Guest

    Princeton - Before I answer let's get something straight. You say people and even children die for the beliefs I hold. Where out of the big blue sky did you pull that one from?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Trevis-Robotie/100001756240675 Trevis Robotie

    u r 1 hell of a guy and u got ballz!

  • Guest

    Here's a weird one for you CandN. You mentioned the name Barkemeyer residing in Cottage Grove, Or. I live in Eugene and I sometimes backpack (and do a little gold panning) around Cottage Grove. On one recent trip I stumbled across an old mining camp which no one seemed to know anything about. Not wanting to claim jump I left it and when I got home curiosity began to gnaw at me and I began to research. I came across a history of a town called Hebron. In that history the Barkemeyers are often mentioned. Some of the names are Paul, Lawrence, Catherine, and yes, Fayrene. I believe it showed she married Bill Barkemeyer.

    Never found who owned the mining sight.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Trevis-Robotie/100001756240675 Trevis Robotie

    the exclamation that comes out of me is "o shit"!most of us have been brain-washed from childhood but,if you are a born free thinker,the effect is bland.this is my case.since i was a kid i've always asked unanswerable questions about religions and,in particular about the bible.reading read the quran,ifound out that it's even worse!just an uglier copy of the bible.but the worst so far,the black belt, 10th dan of all is the mormone's bible-pure thrash

  • Guest

    Princeton - Do you see that I was answering N B's question? Did it ever cross your nimble friggin' mind to read his comment BEFORE you make a comment on my post.

    Let me spell it out for you because that appears to be the only way of making something that is already clear simple enough. N B was talking about labels and their connotations. My reply was essentially not to care about those labels. Labels are trivial things. Read it.

    What is ironic is you said that I never saw an atheist standing on a corner yelling at people to repent but I sure have seen one standing on a website yelling at me that my beliefs cause the death of children. What kind of reasoning lets garbage such as that flow out of your mouth. I have not said one word, not a single syllable about my beliefs.

    You prove my case atheist.

  • Atheist13

    @Pysmythe

    Nice new avatar

    Nooo this is not Sparta!

    C_and_N is Sparta!

  • Guest

    @ Atheist13
    No, C and N is Xerxes, who wants to conquer the world and force it to submit to his sort of thinking! (lol)

  • http://www.facebook.com/Layluhhuh Layla Phelps

    Before I watched this: I wasn't quite sure how anyone made the leap from believing in a higher power to having no belief system at all. Afterwards: If there was a god, he wouldn't have allowed so much pain and suffering. If its true that he punishes the guilty, none of those people were guilty! Innocent women and children died! What kind of "GOD" does that?

  • MediaGuy40

    I am always amazed at the certainty so may of you write about these matter and religion. Grand sweeping statements that encompass and require profound understanding of the universe. The problem the arrogance of your attitude. If God exists and created you that attitude would make you blind to him even if he walked the face of the earth and you met him face to face. Start by realizing you don't understand your own thoughts much less the earth or the universe...then ask humbly for God to reveal himself wait patiently and continue to seek - let me know what happens. I've been there and done that.

  • MediaGuy40

    I am always amazed at the certainty so may of you write about these matter and religion. Grand sweeping statements that encompass and require profound understanding of the universe. The problem the arrogance of your attitude. If God exists and created you that attitude would make you blind to him even if he walked the face of the earth and you met him face to face. Start by realizing you don't understand your own thoughts much less the earth or the universe...then ask humbly for God to reveal himself wait patiently and continue to seek - let me know what happens. I've been there and done that.

  • Sion88

    A question on the side:

    Do you not find it absurd that this "god" is always being referred to as a male? Living creatures have gender for the purpose of reproduction and the facilitation of genetic diversity. That's why they exist, there would be no purpose to gender for an omnipotent being and yet "god" is referred to as a male. If we have a male god then there would have to be a female one somewhere as well, right? Otherwise it wouldn't make sense.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @Charles, maybe this will be rude but I have to say it:

    I feel sorry for you. Thinking that a young evangelist British pastor, Nathan Morris, cured that lady with a prayer on a massive evangelical event is just plain foolish. In what world are you living in? You need to seek help immediately.

    Sorry for the harsh words. Peace to you.

  • sammyxkx

    @Sion88
    studied with christian jews from isreal many years ago.
    jews belive god is female as only females give birth.
    king davids psalms where he wants to suckle gods breasts
    and other things sexual refer to just that.christians dont
    even understand there own religion.

  • His Forever

    No, problem, Vlatko. I can do some more investigation, if you'd like.

    What makes you think it was not a genuine healing? Do you think it was a "fraud"? If so, then by whom? Her or the evangelist? The video gives the impression they didn't know eachother before this event. Or do you think it was the plasebo effect? But if you want to get very precise, IF it was a genuine miracle, then it wasn't Nathan Morris (whom I don't even know apart form this one clip), but God.

    This "Thinking Atheist" documentary says there is no prove of miracles. This is one (of hundreds if not thousands) of testimonies to prove the contradictory.

    I'm not in the U.S.A. so I cann't travel to their homechurch myself (or I would), but it looks like this could be easily investigated. If the woman got married 23 years ago in a wheelchair, and lived and worked and attended church for 23 years in a wheelchair, then there should be pictures. And there should be doctor check-ups, records, examinations, etc. She's the leader of her church's worship service. Looks like if she had faked the paralasis, and then faked the healing at least one of hundreds of people that know her from work and church would call them on the carpet.

    Granted, some "faith healers" are fakes. I watched that doc too. I felt a lot of shame watching greedy "men of God" abuse the name of God for evil gain. But for every fakery, there are more that are not.

    As always, Peace to you also, and thanks for the great website! It helps me loose the stress after online teaching all evening.

    Charles B.

  • His Forever

    Yes, that's her! Small world. You can call her if you'd like. I'm sure she wouldnt mind sharing her story in person. Tell her "Hi"from Charles in the Philippines. I got to see her last summer with the wife and kids, but haven't heard much from her in the last few months.

    Peace to you,

    Charles B.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

    There is a lot of testimonies, but every time we look into them, and there have been many, they turn out to be false. Documentry crews have followed a faith healer for a year and not found a single case of healing. There are always more cases then we have time to investigate, always more testimonials then can be checked. Always more faith healer then can be debunked, and even if we double the number that can be debunked, more pops out. But every time we look, we find a lie. Sooner or later, you have to reach the conclusion that it just might not be possible. But you are welcome to believe on, I am just pointing out the track record on faith healing that have been really investigated is pretty awful.

    Here is a little hint if you do decide to search on.

    If they ever (and I mean EVER) do the growing two leg to the same length routine, they are a fraud. Even if they only do it once, and they do other things too, if they ever go near that, it is a fraud.

    That is because that is a trick that has a very clear method deliberately created to deceive. While we can say some people are honest but misguided, or even have some powers (very unlikely), if they do that routine, they are lieing, and they put effort into constructing that lie. you don't need to look any further.

  • verseinu

    Testimonies will never ever ever prove anything. They are second hand accounts. Regardless of a genuine desire to provide a bias free objective account, information will be lost, and there is a greater chance for a human distortion of the facts. Human memory is prone to all sorts of unconscious biases. Using testimony as evidence to support claims - especially one so astounding as to claim a non dimensional omniscient being - simply cannot fly. To quote the late great Carl Sagan "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

    She's the leader of her church's worship service. Looks like if she had faked the paralasis, and then faked the healing at least one of hundreds of people that know her from work and church would call them on the carpet.

    You should look into the Stanley Milgram obedience to authority experiment...you would be amazed at what people could be led to do.

    Also of potential relevance to this sort of discussion:

    "the bystander effect"

    "diffusion of responsibility"

    "group think"

  • verseinu

    C_and_N

    Fair enough. Though I am curious as to what those 12 pages contain!

    My last thoughts are just this then. The liars and fake 'faith healers' may not make 'him' any less real, but any anecdotal non-experimentally verified 'miracle' does not make 'him' any more real.

    Occam's razor...is a principle that generally recommends, when faced with competing hypotheses that are equal in other respects, selecting the one that makes the fewest new assumptions. - wikipedia

    Respect to you for encouraging respectful discussion and for opening yourself up to the 'firing squad', but denying reality in the face of such overwhelming evidence is delusional thinking. Open your eyes man!

  • http://www.facebook.com/tlejeune3 Tom LeJeune

    @ C_and_N

    So god tells old women where to find their pantyhose, but ignores genocide, war, famine, and disease (which was created by him since the bible clearly states that god created all thing in heaven and on the earth). That's absolutely amazing. How could anyone not believe with a story like that.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    im amazed that so many people think atheists were never christian and never believed that they had a personal relationship with god.

    most did have the same experience you did. but they grew out of it or were smart enough to rationalize it.

  • Achems_Razor

    Why should anyone believe you? Just because you say so? doesn't mean squat!!

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    saying that people prayed for someone then they healed is NOT proof of miracles.

    there are many variables that come into play.

    now if you took a man who lost his legs and prayed over him then we immediately watched his legs grow back, that would be pretty good evidence.

    there are millions of cases of people from all over the world who will claim their god healed them or did some other miracle. what would you say to a muslim that believes allah healed them or a hindu that believes brahma healed them?

    how many cases of healing have been performed on diseases or illnesses that were absolutely unable to go away or go into remission? how many people have gone to healers that werent healed only to have 1 or 2 people healed? like the "healing water of Lourdes" where they have had MILLIONS of visitors yet hold claim to 60 miracle healings.....that sounds about the right number for chance to go into remission.

    now this is what im suggesting. instead of just accepting the stories that confirm your bias, you think about it skeptically. extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    IF there were individuals who were able to do miracle cures, believe me the world would know about them, the science would be done, and there would be no question about their abilities.

    and why would god heal these old sick people who are just going to die in a couple more years without having done anything great? yet he lets COUNTLESS children and people around the world die in very terrible needless conditions without stepping in

    just think about these things when presented with stories of healing. be skeptical rather than just accepting what you already believe.

  • His Forever

    Yeung Xiao and Epic: You forget my mother was one that expereinced divinde healing for severe asthma. I was a young teenager at the time. I lived in the same house as her. 100% sure she wasn't faking or lying about her healing of any kind.

    Wasn't it Jesus who said, "They have Moses and the Prophets [the word of God]. If they will not listen to them, then neither will they listen even if one should rise from the dead"?

    I doubt any testimony of any kind would change your predetermined bias against there even being a God. What about testimonies like Gary Wood? Died in a car crash, resurrected and divinely healed. Was he dead or not? Looks like it would only take a skeptic a day or two at most to prove he wasn't if it was a lie and refute his claims publicly.

    How About Jimmy Blackwood the singer? Divinely healed of pancriatic cancer (and a goose egg-sized tumor) on the day of his scheduled surgery. Met him face to face myself as a teen ager. I've not heard anyone refuting his testimoney either.

    And you want me to be sceptical? Why? What benefit would that give me? When there is a great need that only God can meet, being totally "faithless" is a near certainty that your need will not be met. I'm quite sure I'd be sending flowers to my mother's grave for the past 20 years if I didn't come from family that didn't believe there is a God that still heals--and therefore must be true.

    Nonetheless, it's time for me to bow out. Debating like this isn't a preductive use of my time.

    My apologies, Vlatko. I know you disagree with the premise in my posts, but there should be at least one brave voice that stands up for the opposing side on issues like this. I've restrained myself quite a bit by not going into deep and lengthy theological and Biblical explinations such as the creation account mocked in this documentary, etc.

    I respect the fact that this is your website, and I don't want to step on your toes while at the same time honestly and thoughtfully diligently trying to address and refute just a few of the issues that this doc brings up.

    Epic: I'm uncertain about "healings" in other religions and what they claim. Can you give a specific testimony of such?

    Peace to you,

    Charles B.

    Charles B.

  • His Forever

    Vlatko: Once again, thank you for your website. I'm trying to bow out of this particular thread gracefully due to lack of time, etc.

    Sincerely,

    Charles B.

  • Achems_Razor

    You know Charles, there are times that I envy you, it must be nice to go about all your business, and say your little prayers before going to bed with a warm fuzzy feeling that all your cares and tribulations will be taken care of by your gods.

    Knowing in your own mind there is nothing to fear when you kick the bucket because you are going to your heaven up yonder as long as you keep saying all your little prayers and pay strict allegeince to your invisible gods.

    But my take is all the religee's have a herd mentality, or a hive mentality.

    That is where most of us atheists stand alone, we are the warriors, not in battle but in life, the leaders, not the sheeple as most religee's with there herd mentality. For most atheists science rules, need empirical evidence, not some pie in the sky beliefs about invisible gods, not a "Prima Facie" a fact presumed to be true unless it is disproved.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Yeung-Xiao/630927097 Yeung Xiao

    It would be easy to convince me there is a god. and it should be really easy for the all powerful creator. All i need to see is a case a healing where no other person have been healed in the same way who is not of that religion. A simple case is an amputee. If the all powerful god grows out a limb for someone and that is the only recorded case, and he can do it repeatedly, then I would believe. He is a miracle worker, he is not bound by physical laws, who does these healing seem to be so ordinary as in non christian seem to heal the same way.

    You are right being skeptical does not benefit you in any way, but that is just want it means to live in reality. If god can be shown to truly effect reality, I would have no problems believing in him. If people of one religion die less due to natural disaster consistently, that would be interesting.

    I have no interest in not believing in god, it does not benefit me. It is just that through a study of reality, I found there is no evidence for god of any religion. It is just simply reality. if that can be shown to me other wise, why would I not believe.

  • MediaGuy40

    Those are assumptions...I have seen many and frequent miracles of healing including my own. Most unbelievers are just that - they have chosen a position and for the most part have put their heads in the sand after that. If you did more than a cursory investigation you would be overwhelmed by the availability of verifiable evidence.

  • MediaGuy40

    If you said that homosexuality was a mental illness you would show your ignorance and your blind bigotry. Any thinking person would realize that you are no intellectual or thinking person but a religious bigot.

  • verseinu

    @MediaGuy40

    This post may have been a little antagonistic....maybe.... well, probably, I'll give you that. But so what. Read the original post and the rest of my posts, see if you hold the same view.

    Bigot is a heavy word...you shouldn't throw it around lightly.

    There is nothing ignorant or blind about asking a legitimate question about a belief system that has ravaged humanity...and may have done a little good along the way, in-spite of itself.

    You are not helping your cause by calling me names, you are only hurting yourself by highlight your lack of a genuine argument.

    Throw around your big bad words all you want. It will never achieve your goal of silencing those that question you.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @Charles,

    First of all I think you're a kind person. For that matter I think you'll never step on my toes. Every time we disagree (and that is all the time) there is no need to repeat the fact that this is my website. You're visiting this site nearly as long and frequently as me. There is no need for apologies if you're against my arguments. I will not ban you or something if I don't agree with you.

    So cheers.

  • Matthew Standley

    Pardon my ignorance, but where on earth is the actual video. The above is merely 2 minutes of promo. Clicking on the Youtube link only starts the same video. I must be missing something very simple, I am sure?

  • verseinu

    It's a big playlist with a bunch of short clips. It's not an actual 'film'. After each clip ends it should just jump to the next one.

    Read the blurb at the top of this page.

  • awful_truth

    While there is some good humor in these docu-clips???, which should be taken lightly and with good heart, there is definitely some factual errors. (Einstein was not an athiest) More importantly, the debate between science and religion to me is rediculous. Science(verifiable) and religion(unverifiable) are different sides of the same coin trying to explain existance. Since existance is composed by both the provable and unprovable,(uncertainty principal) neither explanation soley by itself can be correct. In other words, absence of proof is not proof of absence. (if you believe in cold, then hot can;'t possibly exist)
    This bi-polar reasoning of 'one or the other' continuously plays itself out for the unenlightened, who refuse to grow because they have blinders on.(George Bush - if your not with us, your against us!) It is for this reason, these docu-clips are 1 dimensional regarding the 'thinking' aspect. What people choose to believe concerning what can't be proven varies greatly in it's expression. While I am a very spiritual person, I am not religious because I have concerns regarding hypocracy and judgemental rationalization. (we are the chosen ones, everyone else is forsaken) In my opinion, the idea of god is not the problem, it is what everyone believes god(the universe) to be that causes the most grief. More often then not, filters of predjudice, or wishful thinking warp perceptions regarding what the universe really is.
    The only thing these anti-religious clips prove, is that it's creators have no faith in uncertainty,(choice) as much as the religious zealots have no respect for science.(undeniable) Ulltimately, existance is beyond human comprehension, and it will continue to be this way until humanity chooses to accept a new paradigm of thinking itself. As much as I need to see it to believe it, I have learned through experience that it is not always necessary. (you can't see the air, but it fills your lungs none the less) Of course, this is just my opinion. I for one am happy we are not all the same. If we were, we couldn't trade the diversity of ideas expressed in these blogs. Making people think is paramount, only then can we grow. The day you become entrenched with any extreme doctrine, the growth stops, and the ability to adapt ends; something to think about! Live long and prosper everyone.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Rodrigo-Pereira/1066815623 Rodrigo Pereira

    Some much thinking, what an enlighten atheíst, profound conclusions.
    So very advanced for someone who is about what? 15?

  • mohammed sabri

    all i can say that the hole video was mostly built mostly by emotions rather than evidence and facts.

  • awful_truth

    Hey Rodrigo. If you read my blog carefully, I said I was spiritual, not religious. If that implies athiest to you, then 15 year olds likely have a jump on you.

  • Ninje

    My name is Shane and I'm simply a homosapien.

    I come from a very religious family that I consider to be simple, close-minded and seflish.

    I question humanities intelligence when it comes to delusional people such as yourself "C_and_N".

    I will not fully elaborate on the matter as I feel its a waste of time. I will say the following:

    There is enough magic in the universe without your delusions.
    We are simply something small apart of a much larger purpose (Don't interpret that the wrong way)
    To think there is life after death is selfish, life as it is should be good enough and you should consider yourself lucky enough to have it, you shouldn't expect more.
    A persons soul is their memories which die upon your death.

    I will close with this, we as a species are not special in anyway. So please preach your bullshit elsewhere or to other "simple" humans.

  • Ninje

    I'd like to add that my post is irrelevant to the documentary. I have not watched and I will not watch it.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_WLBNEV2QH2R5SWTEELOXOJQPEM N B

    @MediaGuy40: It isn't necessary to understand "the earth or the universe" (whatever that means) in order to recognize the stupidity of religion. I grew up in a Christian family in the "Bible Belt" of the US. As a consequence, I spent the first twenty-odd years of my life going to church and trying to conform to Christian expectations. All the while I thought there must be something deep and profound about religion and the Bible that I simply couldn't see. Finally, after I grew up a bit and gained enough confidence to start thinking for myself, I realized that I wasn't the one that was confused. The reason Christianity never made sense to me is because it simply doesn't make sense. Moreover, it is contradictory, philosophically shallow, divisive, manipulative and simply WRONG in every sense of the word.

    So with all due respect (meaning none whatsoever), I've already spent way too much of my life in a self-delusional state while waiting "for God to reveal himself" to me. What a load of bs! Would you like to know what always amazes me? It's the astounding level of condescension that religious idiots manage to exhibit while putting forth an argument that is complete unsupported by either evidence or common sense.

  • MediaGuy40

    TO NB - first of all you misquoted me. I didn't say you had to understand the universe. I said to definitely know if God exist or doesn't, one would have to have a lot more knowledge than what you are proporting to have or people would believe you have. To say there is no God requires you to know a lot more about everything before you could even guess if God is out there in your unknown.
    You have been hurt by a religious church which I would venture to guess does not reflect the true nature of Christianity (there are lots of them unfortunately). I am sorry that happened to you, because if I was in many of the churches that say they are Christian, that I have seen and heard of, I would probably be where you are in your beliefs....angry!
    However there are million upon million of people who live a spiritual life connected to God through Christ in a way that is beautiful and deep. The evidence from this small (much smaller than everyone who say they are christian) group would be overwhelming. I have been walking this walk for 35 years and I would not turn back ever - not because of fear or the ugliness of manipulation that you have been subject to, but because of the love, joy and peace it brings.
    I would like to apologize for those who have abused you in the name of God and Christ. I feel your pain.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_WE244ANGT5C67O5BRTLJCJLK2E Tom

    "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
    Albert Einstein 3/24/54

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_WLBNEV2QH2R5SWTEELOXOJQPEM N B

    @MediaGuy40: In my original comment, I stated that I could neither prove nor disprove the claim that the universe was created by some intelligent entity. Perhaps, had you bothered to read my comment prior to replying to it, you would have decided not to make such a baseless argument in the first place? But no, I suspect you would have. After all, straw man arguments are so much more convenient, aren’t they?

    Now you’ve apparently decided that I’m a poor lost lamb, unable to see the Truth, because I was surrounded by a bunch of sub-par Christians in my youth. That’s ironic considering your comments sound exactly like them. Furthermore, I am quite certain that they would not appreciate your apology upon their behalf, just as I’m sure that you wouldn’t want them to apologize for the conceit and arrogance that you so obviously display when you imagine that you have the right to apologize for somebody else in the first place. I recognize the essence - recognize the stench - of those Christian lemmings in your holier-than-thou implications and pious certainty bubbling up from that core of faith in which you are so proud. A core of nothingness, in reality. A great big piece of nothing that you’ve become so vested in protecting that you can’t even begin to think rationally about anything that might threaten your foundationless world.

    So, am I angry? Not generally. But when it comes to religion? You bet your ass I am. I can think of nothing more destructive or more deceitful than religion (especially Christianity and Islam). Anybody who doesn’t become angry at the thought of the horrid practices emanating directly from religion and unquestioningly supported by its followers ought to be ashamed of themselves.

  • MediaGuy40

    I only suggest one thing to you....that is: that it is possible to know God and to know his power and love in as real way as if he were a person, which is quite wonderful. But many people see Christianity as a set of rules and values which they apply to their life and the lives of those around them to the peril of all. Jesus had the same problem with the pharisees and he told them so - they killed him. He was at war with those religious folk too, because they so misunderstood the real essence of what he came to do. So in many ways I agree with you but I am P.O. with the religious church, not God.

  • Achems_Razor

    You have no right to invoke any of your invisible gods (that strikes me as Satanism) how do we know you are not an "Evil" man? and to bless and offer apologies to anybody from your blatant unconvincing pseudo-arguments from your vague authority of your gods and your Christ's.

    I take umbrage to that and consider all your arguments MOOT!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_WLBNEV2QH2R5SWTEELOXOJQPEM N B

    The comments by the religiously indoctrinated in this forum and others like it support something I've long recognized: it is extremely rare that any religious person can be persuaded to alter their beliefs as a consequence of direct argument. Those who leave religion behind almost always do so incrementally over an extended period of serious self evaluation (and I include myself in that group). Any sort of direct challenge to one's religion is invariably perceived as a very personal attack, and the predictable reaction is an emotionally charged retaliation that serves only to deepen the level of one's emotional investment in the self-delusional quagmire that is religion. Even though I'm often guilty of perpetuating this form of counterproductive opposition, I really do have a lot of respect for anybody with the intellectual integrity and fortitude to actively seek true answers to philosophical questions. It's a journey that is opposed by an enormous amount of emotional inertia, but once you get to the other side you realize there was absolutely no opposition of any other variety. It's easy for those of us that have gone through it to forget how hard it was, and probably impossible for those fortunate enough to have never been indoctrinated to even imagine why it's so hard.

    I'm hopeful that the steady and relentless stream of critical arguments in opposition to religion that are being offered-up by an ever increasing number of respected scholars (mostly scientist and philosophers) is a big step in the right direction. The presentation of this information in documentaries, web sites, books and similar media avenues is much less threatening to those individuals that have begun to sincerely seek-out thoughtful and objective analyses of religious topics. Such a plethora of easily accessible, logical arguments allow them to take-in only as much as they are comfortable with, and therefore avoid the counterproductive effects of direct confrontation.

    I do think that reason will eventually win out over superstitious nonsense, but it's taking a frustratingly long time to do so. I suspect that it will become obvious that the jig is up for religion once it becomes openly and unapologetically ridiculed in major media and politics. But as long as most people continue to feel obligated to perpetuate the notion that religious dogma is somehow respectable, those of us that prefer measured reason over blind faith will just have to bide our time.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_WLBNEV2QH2R5SWTEELOXOJQPEM N B

    I agree that the clips were one-dimensional, but I don't see any problem with that. There is value in an argument that serves only to prove the falsity of a preexisting claim. Supplanting the original false statements with an alternate set of statements would be great, but only if there is a logical and falsifiable (scientific) basis for them. As such, I strongly disagree with your implication that in the absence of verifiable evidence, it is okay to believe anything you want. In such a situation, all you know is that you don't know, and that is the only reasonable and honorable conclusion you can draw from it.

    The common assertion that science and religion are "two sides of the same coin" is silly and offensive to science. They aren't even remotely related - not even by orthogonality, as you claim. Giving voice to such nonsense is just another way of saying it's okay to replace the effort of objective reason with a wild-ass guess. On that same note, your attempt to associate the "unprovable" with the uncertainty principal is way off the mark. An important element of the uncertainty principal is that it provides verifiable probabilities regarding the position and momentum of a particle. To say that we can't know those two particle states exactly is not at all the same as saying that we haven't the faintest idea where that damned particle went off to. Your attempt to extrapolate the concept as justification for acceptance of unprovable nonsense is a clear indication that you prefer baseless conjecture to reason. I've noticed that such a position is common among those claiming to be "spiritual, but not religious." Since nobody ever bothers to nail-down what it really means to be 'spiritual', such a claim is clearly just another attempt to justify fuzzy thinking.

    My point is that it is not okay to accept something as unknowable simply because it is currently unknown. However, integrity requires us to recognize and fully admit to those things that we cannot know at this time due to lack of evidence.

  • awful_truth

    I respect your opinion because I believe everyone has something to offer. Your concept regarding quantum uncertainty is off base though, because it isn't a question of ascertaining where any partilcle is at any point in time. It is the act of observation that creates the aspect of the particle itself. When you are not observing, it is waves of potentiality, when you observe, it becomes a particle of certainty. (double slit experiment) This has nothing to do with lack of evidence as you put it, it means we can never know true reality because there is no way to incorporate observation, without corrupting the premise of science itself.
    If you want to 'nail down' spirituality, it is very simple. A religious person believes in a particular view of god,(the universe) even if experimental evidence contradicts it. An athiest doesn't believe in any comcept of 'god', because the vast majority of religions are based upon the premise of an all knowing, all controlling deity. A spiritual person accepts the idea of god(the universe) because they see it, and live within it's realm.(do you deny the existance of the universe?) Thus, spirituality can probably be best defined as accepting the idea of god(the universe) because we know it exists, but doesn't believe in any of the man made explanations that have been created up to this point. Einstein could be best described as a 'spiritual person'. (not religious, not athiest) On his application to the polytechnic academy, for religious denomination he wrote 'mosaic'. His unwillingness to accept uncertainty principals, that 'god doesn't play dice with the universe', exposes his belief system.
    None of this gives validity to nonsense, nor is there anything 'fuzzy' about it. The point of my original blog was that 'one or the other' thinking is one dimensional. You can't have good without bad, no hot without cold,no up without down, and no science without faith. Everything in the universe exists for a reason, or it wouldn't. To accept this is to embrace life itself, a tolerance few of us can achieve. The only thing 'insulting to science ' is people disregarding the spirituality of those who discovered it. I can help you with the science because I have studied for 30 years, but if you want scientific proof to promote an athiest belief, I can't help you with that, because no such scientific theory exists.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_WLBNEV2QH2R5SWTEELOXOJQPEM N B

    What you say about an unobserved quantum element being waves of potential that collapse into a particle upon observation is of course correct, but that isn’t the whole story. When it collapses it does so in accordance with a known probability function. This goes to my original argument that the uncertainty principal describes a phenomena which operates within very well defined limits, and in fact is predictable enough that we can assign well known probability densities to it. It is a rigorous theory that is well supported by empirical data. Your attempt to use this theory in support of the acceptance of ‘unprovable’ phenomena is simply wrong. When you state that “we can never know true reality because there is no way to incorporate observation without corrupting the premise of science itself”, you are extending the concept of the uncertainty principal beyond its original, proven meaning. You also leave out an important phrase: we cannot measure reality WITH ARBITRARY ACCURACY. As I said before, that it is not the same thing as saying we cannot know reality at all.

    And by the way, the concept of wave potential is an implication of the uncertainty principal (one of many) and not generally regarded as the central statement of the principal itself. The uncertainty principal is most commonly described more or less as follows: “The more precisely the position is determined, the less precisely the momentum is known in this instant, and vice versa.” I use quotes because that is the exact statement (translated from German) that Heisenberg himself used in his original 1927 paper. So when you referenced the uncertainty principal, I naturally assumed that was what you were talking about.

    I too believe that the universe exists, but I prefer to call it “the universe” instead of “god”. Consequently, every time you write “god (the universe)” it confuses me. Are you saying that god and the universe are the same thing? Or that one cannot exist without the other? If so, you’ve introduced a definition for those words that I’ve never heard and one that isn’t in the dictionary. More to the point, if you are saying either of those things, my earlier objection to unsupportable conjecture applies.

    Your relativity argument about bad/good, up/down was fine until you get to “can’t have science without faith.” What? By definition, science exists EXCLUSIVELY without faith. Again, you’ve extended a reasonable statement beyond the limits of its validity. Why can’t some things be relative and others absolute? (Hey! There’s another relativity example!)

    Also, whereas I do like to think that there is a reason everything exists in the universe, it is not necessarily true that “everything in the universe exists for a reason.” The latter implies intention or a guiding hand, so to speak.

    I do not consider myself an atheist because I’m perfectly okay with saying “I don’t know” when faced with something I cannot explain due to lack of evidence. Therefore, unequivocally stating that there is no god or no creator of this universe is no better than claiming that there is. So perhaps that’s one area where we can find common ground. However I must add that, from a purely statistical perspective, I think atheism is a more valid position than the religious ones that not only claim the existence of a god(s) but go on to say that they know exactly what he/she/they thinks about every conceivable scenario and then proceed to impose those beliefs on others.

    While I’m at it, what do you mean when you say that humanity should “accept a new paradigm of thinking”? I admit my limitations on this point because I cannot conceive of a method of thinking which does not require evidence prior to reaching a conclusion that is better than one which does.

  • awful_truth

    I have to say N B, that I think we have more common ground then you think. After your last response to me, only now can I express what it is that I am trying to convey. You are obviously intelligent, the only lack of understanding between us is the limitation of the written word, so I will do my best.
    1) My statement, 'Everything in the universe exists for a reason' has no implication of a guiding hand, because it is a result of the uncertainty principle. If there is a 1000 possibilities, and quantum mechanics can't say with certainty which possibilty is correct, then all 1000 possibilities play themselves out. This is why everything has a reason. (potentiality)
    2) My statement regarding good/bad, hot/cold, up/down, and yes science/faith does not imply exclusivity, just the extremes of potentiality. Science is at one end (verifiable), and faith at the other end.(unverifiable) I completely agree with you that one should not blindly give equal creedance to every idea, in fact, if science implies one possibility more then another, then that is the direction one should look. Since we both agree that science can no more prove a religious belief, anymore then an athiest belief, then we must look at other hints in the universe as to which is more likely.(probability)
    3) The reason one can't look exclusively to science for all the answers, is because many things in life are etheral.
    ( ex. morality, compassion, and yes love) Science has no quantitative way to validate these items, yet they do exist none the less. Furthermore, science does not calculate these qualities into any equation. For as much death has resulted from religious stupidity(irrational), it can also give moral guidance to those who aren't prepared to think critically to begin with. On the flip side, for as much as science has given us technological advancement to ease our daily lives, it creates laziness, eugenics, nuclear weapons, and big brother control over the masses, the very dominion that religion had before it's scientific counterpart was realized. The idea that spirituality has no productive qualities, is as dismissive as religious zealots who refuse to acknowledge what science has surely proven wrong. Of course it is easy to prove that the earth has existed more then 6000 years, and it is highly unlikely that Jesus was the result of devine conception. On the other hand, try proving you love your family with scientific certainty. this is precisely why issues of faith can have validity, or can be outright misleading in the wrong hands.(immorality) This is why in my original blog I stated my problem with religious hypocracy and contradiction.
    4) As far as combining the term of god as equatable with the universe, I do this to help people to try to define what it is they think god is, if such a thing exists. Einstein constantly asked himself whether 'god had any choice in how he created the universe'. This implies something beyond the universe as we can even understand it. I equate them together soley because I have my own idea what everything is, and it is based upon what science has been telling me all along. (are you ready for this?)
    5) The universe is a brain. What exists beyond it's confines(in body), I cannot say for certain. When I look up, I don't see stars and nebulae, I see neurons, and dendritic connections. If my idea is correct, then the universe is alive, and we are thoughts in the brain. One thought creates other thoughts, much like having children. Thus god, (the universe) is an entity on it's own realm of space and time. The implications of this are profound because it destroys any religious idea of an all powerful, knowing controlling being. Furthermore, the universe is not expanding, but collapsing in on itself, under the force of gravity. This is why everything appears to be moving away from each other. Not only is this supported by general and special relativity, it explains why the 'movement' of the universe is accelerating.(discovered in the lat 90's) The real clincher is years ago brain scans were done on people, and when they were redone 10 years later, they discovered the configurations hadn't changed, but had become smaller in size so the patients brains could envelope more spatial area without a person's head increasing in size to compensate.
    Now, what I have just expressed to you is a small part of a book that I am nearing completion, and while I have had this theory for 30 years, I have not found one scientific explanation that has contradicted it in that time. The interesting part is that science and spirituality are no longer in conflict, each serves it's purpose, and reinforces the other. What need then is there for a conflict between science and spirituality. In fact, if I am correct, this is the ultimate unification theory, the new paradigm of thinking itself that I have been refering to. Then everyone can get along, quit fighting over stupidity, and quit assigning values to god which they had no right to infer to begin with. Of course, this is just my opinion, and no matter how much I want people to becomed enlightened for their betterment, and those around them, the likelyhood of this happening is highly improbable because everyone wants to think 1 dimensionally, becuase humans are like electricity, and like to take the path of least resistance.
    Now assuming you read the entirety of this, I am sure you will not agree with everything I have said, because we are all different. I am not trying to convince you of anything other then to expand your horizons beyond all the filters that have been placed on all of us. I certainly don't have all the answers, but I know at least for me, that I am on the right track. I hope you can take something from this for yourself, this is what I try to do everyday when trading ideas with intelligent people like yourself, because that is what everything is all about.(life) Live long and prosper, and best wishes to you N G.

  • Achems_Razor

    Have been following your threads somewhat, you say everything in the universe exists for a reason. I say the opposite, although I agree everything is the result of the uncertainty principle, we live in the midst of chaos.

    You said "if there is a 1000 possibilities, and quantum mechanics can't say with certainty which possibility is correct, then all 1000 possibilities play themselves out."

    You are delving into the field of probabilities with that statement. My take is none of your "possibilities" play themselves out. Each possible outcome every Planck second is still viable and has its own reality, new universe as in flipped, Re Shrodinger's cat, and Feynman who demonstrated that subatomic particles traverse infinite paths through spacetime, implicating infinite histories for any one particle.

    And Hawking's says, the universe has unlimited realities.
    "Quantum physics tells us that no matter how thorough our observations of the present, the (unobserved past, exists only as a spectrum of possibilities (that are all viable).

    "The universe, according to quantum physics, has no single past, or history. The fact that the past takes no definite form means that observations you make on a system in the present affect its past."

    Then of course looking at Brian Greene's...Quilted, Inflation, Brane, Cyclic, Landscape, Quantum, Holographic, Simulated, Ultimate multiverses, and all the other 10^500 universes, is another story.

  • Brock Gorton

    My only comment is what took you 30 years to realize religion is garbage.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_WLBNEV2QH2R5SWTEELOXOJQPEM N B

    @awful_truth (9/3/2011) – Perhaps our underlying point of contention is associated with the definitions we assign to the words ‘science’ and ‘spirituality’. Or more precisely, on the boundaries that each of us are willing to place on these concepts. I have great confidence in science, and am certain that it hasn’t yet come close to achieving its full potential. By its very nature, science expands by continually chipping away at the unknown. This is a self-enabling process that allows it to build more, explore more, discover more and become more. Therefore, I claim for science the domain of all things which are not explicitly excluded by Godel’s Incompleteness Theorems. If spirituality or religion or anything else wants to claim ownership of a topic, it must first offer rigorous proof that the topic is unprovable (which can be done, and has been done). In my opinion, any topic that is not understood and has not been proven unprovable falls squarely into the category of “I don’t know.”

    For example, you claim that morality cannot be addressed by science, but I think perhaps it can. The hardest thing about understanding ‘morality’ is coming up with a good definition for it. When I say ‘good definition’, I mean one that everybody can agree on and one that is measurable. This is true whether you think morality is a problem for science, philosophy, religion, spirituality, or anything else. After all, it doesn’t do any good to demand that people behave morally unless 1) everybody can agree that they ought to, and 2) it’s possible to objectively determine whether or not they are. Sam Harris discusses this very subject in his book “The Moral Landscape”, which I happen to think is a pretty good book. So for the sake of my example I will accept his suggestion that ‘morality’ can be loosely defined as ‘behavior which increases well-being’. I like this definition because it immediately brings to mind the ‘meaning of life’ problem expressed as an optimization performance index functional. It goes like this (too bad we can’t post equations here): ‘The meaning of life is to maximize the integral, from Birth to Death, of the absolute value of ( pleasure – pain ) dt’. As for coming up with a measurable definition of ‘well-being’ and by extension ‘morality’, why not use the scientific method? After all, it’s unquestionably the most successful tool ever devised when it comes to achieving practical, actionable results. It certainly beats dogmatic edicts, supportable only by blind faith and willful ignorance. Similar scientific approaches may be applicable to the understanding of questions related to love, compassion, and other emotional concerns. I admit, the idea of coldly evaluating love with a set of equations is emotionally repulsive to me, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done and it doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be correct.

    Your ‘universe is a brain’ is an interesting and creative hypothesis, and I will accept it in the spirit which it was expressed. Unfortunately, both neurology and cosmology are outside my area of specialty, so I’m not qualified to offer a full critique of your idea. However, it’s clear that at least one element of your hypothesis is falsifiable (not “false”, “falsifiable”), and therefore available to scientific review. Your claim that the universe is collapsing is a subject of great interest to cosmologist, and as you know, it is in opposition to the commonly accepted theory that the universe is expanding. The expanding universe theory has been rigorously evaluated and, as far as I know, has not been proven false. In other words, it is considered to be in agreement with all empirical evidence and all other accepted scientific theories. So when you state that no part of your theory contradicts existing scientific theories, I suspect that there are many cosmologist who would disagree. The accepted procedure for challenging existing theories is through submission of a counter argument to professional journals dedicated to the subject in question. I realize that this is a difficult course of action, and that the editorial and review staffs are sometimes less than completely objective, but nonetheless, to my knowledge it is the best process we have. So, have you submitted your argument for a collapsing universe for publication in any of the peer reviewed cosmology journals? Surely it’s worth going to the extra trouble of bouncing your ideas off the recognized experts in the field before publishing them in a book?

  • awful_truth

    Hi N B. Just wanted to elaborate on the point I made regarding a collapsing universe. When Einstein completed his theory regarding general relativity, he realized it's implications that the universe was not static,(steady state) but had to be either expanding, or collapsing. When Edwin Hubble through astronomy discovered that (generally speaking) galaxies were moving apart from one another, it was accepted that this not only implied expansion, but also implied that the universe had a beginning. For these 2 reasons, this idea(expansion) took hold within the scientific community. In reality, because we are part of the system, there is no way to determine definitively which is occuring. (you would have to be separate from the system to observe the difference - the reason Einstein stated either one or the other) This is where the 3 accepted possible outcomes of the universe came to be. (steady state, expansion forever until freezing, or expansion then the big crunch) This movement of the universe was discovered to be accelerating in the late 90's, which contradicts the idea of expansion because explosions dissipate over time. This implies that the change from expansion to contraction has already occured,(big crunch theory) or what I suggested in my previous e-mail, a self contained collapsing system. With that said, the scientific community since has chosen to explain these issues with the same thing that Einstein had suggested, and later called the 'greatest blunder of his career', a cosmological constant that countered the force of gravity. Dark energy, and dark matter are also cosmological constants created to explain the lack of evidence of matter in the universe to explain their theories. Physicist Alan Guth's inflationary theory has went even further by breaking the laws of physics by stating in the early universe, things were expanding faster then the speed of light. Since these new theories have no problems breaking the laws of physics, or being verifiable, leaves me disillusioned regarding the scientific community. Einstein's ideas regarding relativity were also snubbed by the science of the time, because even scientists tends to ignore the truth when careers and egos are on the line. This is why I stated to you that my idea of a collapsing universe does not break issues regarding relativity, or Newtonian mechanics for that matter. Even though there is no way to confirm expansion or collapse, the measurment of acceleration implies the likelyhood of what is happening. I know this is something you can relate to, because we both already agreed that if there isn't any proof(like religion)we should look to what we can say with some certainty to determine probability. Take care, and best wishes.

  • Leee Pontruce

    A synonym to spiritual is religious. The definition of spirituality is relating to a human spirit or soul. The origin of of spirits or souls typically lay will religion.

    There is another definition which is people who are unconcerned with physical or material objects. However, the first definition is the more common one to spirituality.

  • His Forever

    Vlatko: Ok. Thanks. I was a bit worried about that in fact.

    Peace.

  • Achems_Razor

    @Azilda:

    Don't know who this Al Leone is, no peer review and not listed in any scientific journals. Seems to me a plagiarization of a bunch of new age and scientific suppositions.

  • jonathan jackward

    yes religion is crap but that does not prove materialism either.

  • Guest

    I was not asking if you knew the man, or if he was published, i was asking if a brief overview of the doc meant anything to you. That took you exactly 3 minutes to respond which tells me you are not interested.
    That's fine! May be someone else will be...i'lll wait.
    az

  • jonathan jackward

    if you look into quantum physicists that have had a long career and a lot of time to understand through the math and experiments it you will find the observer (consciousness) affects the wavefunction collapsing it.the fact of probability can be applied does not have anything to do with it. look. into Amit Goswami for example. who has teaching physics for 32 years.he has written university text books on quantum theory, and has a monistic idealism worldview as do many other credible physicists and scientists. the fact is that there is no more proof for materialism than modern scientific and philosophical beliefs regarding the primacy of consciousness(monistic idealism and others).there is an evergrowing knowledge of quantum mechanics as well as superunification, and grandunification everyday.

  • jonathan jackward

    that logic applies to many scenarios. many people psychologically tie their beliefs in with their identity, thinking if they lose them they will lose their "self". Even though it is necessary in the process of advancement to modify your worldview with accordance to new information about reality that you receive.We all struggle with our ego in this type of situation.

  • Achems_Razor

    Azilda:

    I did give it an overview, and told you it seemed like a new age summation, with some types of science thrown in, If I am not interested in something will let you know. And no, did not take 3 min. to respond, took 1 hour. And want to thank you for the links that you give.

  • Rajswamy

    everything is a result of the human condition, see ,feel, touch, observe, analyse, think, comprehend, etc. questions like who are we, what is our purpose, where did we come from, where are we going etc all spring from the human mind, the human thought. emotions like love, hate, passion, jealousy, revenge , empathy ,happiness ,greed, etc. are inherent qualities of the human mind and upbringing, it is just how much plays in making a decision or judgement, and any judgement is always made from a particular perspective, it cannot be totally non biased. Even the judge who brings down the gavel has a perspective, everything springs from within Therefore one has to understand oneself to understand the world and keep in mind we live in a relative world there is always a reference point from where we look at things.
    in the human psyche what is normal and what is abnormal is set on what society calls normal or abnormal. Therefore in psychological terms if human behaviour falls in a standard deviation of say +1 and -1 we call it normal.

    so my point is it is a relative world, I being a neurologist , cannot perform heart surgery. so let us thank our parents for this life and spend it in happiness, for we all look for happiness in whatever we do and this journey is very precious and let us be optimistic and keep and open mind an learn, interact, do good in every thought we have. every day is a mysterious and a new experience. I always remember the good times I had. 'Deep in the human unconscious there is a pervasive need for a logical world that makes sense, but the world is one step beyond logic.
    we do not know everything , if we did we will not be humans.

    Religion is an easy way out, I feel that people who preach religion, make a living on other peoples fear and uncertainty and misfortunes.

    ''it is like saying that a psychiatric patient builds castles in the air and the psychiatrist lives in them and charges the rent''

    I am enjoying today so I hope tomorrow will be a good one.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZQDBKDGYYUFRKMEBNWIZZUUULE Mark

    Eternal evidence that God is a man made invention(a process called "anthropomorphic superimposition") are the statements that "God desires", God "wishes", God "plans", etc. This would suggest then that as the spiritual sage Nisargadatta once told someone in his presence, it was first he who arrived on the scene and then came God(because God was only a mental projection he had created).

  • Kateye70

    "Religion is an easy way out, I feel that people who preach religion, make a living on other peoples fear and uncertainty and misfortunes.

    ''it is like saying that a psychiatric patient builds castles in the air and the psychiatrist lives in them and charges the rent''"

    ^^^

    THIS

  • Guest

    Yep, they set up the "sickness," and then offer the "cure".
    Simple enough, right?

  • Guest

    WTF?!!! Isn't 90 minutes enough? Is there a movie recommended by this site that does not last more than 2 hrs. I really fell like somebody wants to brainwash me!

  • Latonya Richards

    I am a convert from Christianity to Islam but I study other religions or ways of life such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc. I see the same voice in all of them, though most would probably disagree...doesn't matter its what I see. Nonetheless, what I don't understand (and I'm so seriously not trying to be funny or rude) is why do atheist choose to argue about something that doesn't exist. If someone came up to me and told me the sky was purple and I know its blue, I would dismiss them as color-blind or ignorant but nonetheless I would dismiss them. I wouldn't even bother trying to prove to them what is evidently true though they can't see it. My point is, if creation is just random and there is no Creator, then why even argue the point. Why even try to convince or justify what you know does not exist or is not true...

    I will say this, if I believe in a Creator and He turns out not to be real, as you say, then when I die I will return to nothingness and my beliefs would have cost me nothing but time and energy...I can live with that kind of loss and trade off. However, if you don't believe in a Creator and He turns out to be true, then what will you loose for your unbelief? I won't answer that...every man has to rationalize that one for himself...When I look in my material life here on this earth I see that everything I touch (man-made) has been created by someone, no one can argue with that that would be foolish, right? My house, my clothes, my shoes, my computer, table, door and car, everything I use in my daily life has been created by someone for me to use. Why is it hard for anyone to rationalize that natural resources which are here for us to use were also made by a Creator for us to use. Can anyone make land, water, air, gravity, stars, moon, sun, animals, people. If fruits and vegetables didn't exist who has the knowledge to bring them forth (from nothingness) to sustain life?

    We condemn what we don't know and don't understand. If religious people have been brain washed and are incapable of intelligent thought or free-thinking, then who has brain washed, stunted your intelligent thought and block your free-thinking from believing there is a Creator. When in your own everyday life, EVERYTHING you use (man-made) has been created by someone, why do you judge so ill? O Man kind how long do you think your LORD will be patient with you before His wrath falls upon you? If the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike, then who do you think His wrath will fall upon?

    ...Only a sinner (non-thinker, fool, reprobate mind, fallen-one, devoid of understanding) would despair of the Creator's mercy towards mankind...

    Bottom line...every man must do what is right within himself. In the end we will all find out the truth!

  • bobcat43

    i've never been able to convert a religious fr**k to the ways of logic , as a religious fr**k has never been able to convert me- i'm sure i'm right

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    some of these are youtube videos made by users who have many many videos that they put together into a series, so they often are very long.

  • PatricktheAtheist

    Ha, only a fool would despair at being ruled by a maniac who advocates slavery, murder, thoughtcrime, and so many other terrible things? Not only are you scientifically illiterate, but you must also be just plain illiterate if you think being ruled by the Abraham god is not a cause for despair! Congratulations on your conversion to islam, now you are less likely to make anybody in the west more religious and, because of that, you are worthy of salute and thanks

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_WLBNEV2QH2R5SWTEELOXOJQPEM N B

    @Latonya Richards - from Christianity to Islam, huh? The phrase “out of the frying pan and into the fire” comes to mind. And that voice you hear is your own. That’s why it’s the same regardless of the religious mythology you choose to contemplate. Perhaps it is your “what if there really is a god?” attitude that pushes you toward the most extreme religions? You know, those such as Christianity and Islam, which proclaim the most horrible and extreme consequences for anybody not willing to believe their particular form of nonsense? I don’t know. I’m not a psychologist, but I think maybe that’s a good topic for you to talk to one about.

    As for your question concerning atheists’ reasons for arguing, it seems to me that you’ve missed the entire point of the argument. Their objections are to religion, which is something that certainly does exist, and to the mindless ‘faith’ of those willing to put themselves in the hands of self-serving and manipulative organizations. The reason for those objections is that such behavior is a very dangerous thing. Dangerous not only to the individuals participating in the self-delusional behavior, but much more importantly, it’s dangerous to society at large. If it were a ‘victimless crime’ so to speak, I wouldn’t object. I figure everybody has the right to do what they want as long as it doesn’t hurt others. But it is far from victimless. Religion is nothing more than a tool that is used by exploitative psychopaths to manipulate large numbers of people, and it’s hard to imagine anything that has caused more harm to humanity.

    “Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.”
    ~~ Seneca

    “Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet”
    ~~ Napoleon Bonaparte

  • a_no_n

    evolution is not a result of "survival of the fittest."

    Yes it is...those who are fit enough to best survive in their habitat get to pass on their genes.

    Atheism is another form of faith

    no...it really isn't.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_5PXX3U52DS5V4OH6PRO7OSQPEE Brett

    This documentary is clearly not a man coming to a logical conclusion that God does not exist. This is a man upset that bad things happen in the world, and even more upset that some people chose to believe in a all-powerful God that could stop these bad things from happening but doesn't due to his "divine plan." The truth is there are some hints towards a creator (universal expansion shows proof of a big bang and beginning of time, DNA shows a informational structure to life, and historical documents, such as the dead sea scrolls and writings of Josephus, validate consistency of the narative of the Bible with greater accuracy than any other book ever written and copied) but no definite proof. If this man is looking for God to show up in his living room and divinely prove to him that he exists, he is probably out of luck. However, even seeing with his own eyes he could still doubt. The truth is that a belief in God is about faith and it is sadly not for everyone, either because of life experience or their own reasoning, and that is ok too as long as they understand the consequences of posibly being wrong. In the end this guy needs to stop focusing so much energy on criticizing people who believe in God because they have a better attitude than him and choose not to join him in misery and depression. Because these people who have joy in spite of the bad things in the world are most likely also the people who are trying to change the world for the better.

  • Nikita2012

    Watched the whole documentary and loved it. We all are born as free human beings or let me say atheist? Unfortunately our free minds gradually indoctrinated by all religious doctrines, dogmas and false teachings by the so called religious leaders, and yes it starts with our parents/ family. Once I was an obedient Sunday school student, and I regret for being obedient and religious. I wish all our Sunday school teachers watch this documentary and stop imparting those false teachings to the young minds.

  • Nathaniel Cutler

    As regards "Morality Without God," I would like to say this: "Yes, you did take it out of context." But only some of it. Mainly, I am thinking of the initial quotations. There is no reason to believe that Lot and his daughters actions were endorsed by God. Lot was never considered a righteous man and in this instance was favored by God (to be saved by the angels from Sodom and Gomorrah) only at Abraham's request (verse 29). Moreover, it should be noted that from the offspring of the incest with his daughters came the Moabites and Ammonites, constant enemies of Israel throughout the Old Testament. I am not defending the Christian position, but being pretty well versed in the Bible I would just like to say that I do find Atheists (and many Christians, too, unfortunately) continually lifting passages out of context and claiming knowledge of a book few of them have ever really delved into. It should, further, be remembered by Christians and Atheists alike that many of the references to God in terms of endorsements of violent acts are but the justifications of a rather primitive tribe of people trying to hold their own amongst other warring nations and peoples. If the 'wind blew their way' in a battle, they attribute their success to a higher power. And if it is said that 'none shall be spared' when entering into a battle it is only because they cannot risk being seen as softies by other potential enemies. That one must be feared was an ultimate and incontestable rule of survival; and it is easy to imagine how the absoluteness of such a precept is easily seen/confused with divine decree.

  • WiseGapist

    So sad to see an ignorant post, but then to see three people liking that ignorance...well that's even worse^^

    You are confusing science and religion for a start, the two are very different, and the notion that the big bang may point to a creator, does not give any validation to the Christian bible's interpretation of the truth...

    "and historical documents, such as the dead sea scrolls and writings of Josephus, validate consistency of the narative of the Bible with greater accuracy than any other book ever written and copied)"

    -Are you even serious?

    "In the end this guy needs to stop focusing so much energy on criticizing people who believe in God because they have a better attitude than him and choose not to join him in misery and depression"

    - Yeah, lets bury our heads in the sand, pretend we live in a world without war, famine, genocide etc, and get busy basking in the eternal love of Our Lord, and pray to him to save us... Do you know how pathetic that is? You believe in God because of your own vanity and weakness- You are not God's child, your soul will not live forever after you die with all your loved ones - you are an evolved ape, worthless in the grand scheme of this universe in any greater degree than the influence you exert on the people around you...

    Also, joyous Christians are doing a lot less to change the world than the numerous research scientists and technicians curing disease and improving the standard of living, Christians do little more than stagnate the progress of humanity and do a bit of charity work on the side, which numerous atheists do without the need to follow religion.

  • http://www.facebook.com/vedran.gvojic Vedran Gvojic

    "I will say this, if I believe in a Creator and He turns out not to be real, as you say, then when I die I will return to nothingness and my beliefs would have cost me nothing but time and energy...I can live with that kind of loss and trade off. However, if you don't believe in a Creator and He turns out to be true, then what will you loose for your unbelief?"

    if you believe that god exists just because you want to be sure your soul is going to be saved, then you are nothing more than a hypocrite. gl&hf

  • http://www.facebook.com/peter.kei Peter C. Kei

    I don't sense a hint of bias at all. What a wonderful and well documented film on this subject. I believe you have stumbled upon insights no one has thought of in the last 2000 years of this controversy. You are both extremely convincing and extremely intelligent. lmfao

  • http://www.facebook.com/peter.kei Peter C. Kei

    Im an atheist too but, this "thinking atheist" is just a clown. Hes not open minded at all. Don't be brainwashed by ideas like this. This isn't atheism, this is anti-religious. Its totally different.

  • Nikita2012

    hi, I am not brainwashed :) but thanks for this note... this is not the 1st time am watching documentary like this, but "thinking atheist" is made with lot of fun, and I enjoyed watching this. I am not a religious person, and against of all the established religion and imposed belief system. TDF is an open forum to discuss and exchange ideas... so it would be good to hear your understanding of atheism... thanks

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=578546065 Regan Bender

    I see these as nothing more than comical entertainment. some are really funny. if you really want to get into this subject there are much better docus. but arguing about these is like picking apart saturday night live skits.

  • awful_truth

    I agree that breaking free of indoctrination (change) is difficult for everyone. For the open minded, level headed, I will now tell you what I truly believe if you are willing to read it. (just my opinion)
    As a young man, I had an epiphany regarding how people think. One of our greatest limitations is this idea that either 'one or the other' (not both) dominates how we think.(George Bush-if your not with us, your against us) After spending a great deal of time studying science and religion, I came to the following conclusion.
    Science itself has taught us that life only exists due to the imperfections of the universe. (broken symmetry) This is why we can perceive differences like hot/cold, left/right, up/down, etc. Science and religion are the ultimate expression of this duality. Science itself even has it's own duality with relativity and quantum mechanics. Until we have a better description, we must accept that both are right and co-exist together, because both theories have been proven correct, time after time. It is because of this, I pursued the ultimate theory of unification, and this was it's result. (are you ready for this?)
    The universe is a brain.(11 dimensional if the math is correct) When I look up, I no longer see stars and nebulous, I see neurons and dendritic connections. If we assume I am correct, here is the implications.
    1) the universe lives on it's own realm of space and time.
    2)We are thoughts in the universe which created us.
    3) Our purpose in life is to learn and pass the information on so the universe can cope within it's own realm, much like we do in ours.
    4) The universe/god is not all knowing and relies on us.(imperfection)
    5) I am a god to my thoughts. I create my thoughts which in turn creates other thoughts, much like having children.
    6) Immortality can only occur if we live a life worth remembering.
    7) Immortality means reliving the same life over and over, everytime our dendrtic connection is activated.(so make it a good one)
    8) If there was no life, what would be the point of the universe?
    9) There can be no thinking without thoughts! (past/present/future)

    This is why I say that I am spiritual, not religious, because no man made religion has yet incorporated an all encompassing thought process. On the contrary, they are as divided as the duality that created them. (only through Christ-everyone else forsaken, only thorugh Ala, everyone else forsaken, the jews are the chosen people!) In other words, I don't care if it is a Christian crusade or a muslim Jihad, it is all hypocritical mindless fanaticism to me, as a self justification of actions that are against the very scripture they purport to believe in. (my hypocracy only goes so far)

    To those with religious indoctrination, these comments are blasphemy.

    A continuation of this hypocracy is to believe only in natural selection which is purely survival.(dog eat dog) Hitler liked this thinking (Darwinism) which supported his ideology towards the master race. This ultimately led to Eugenics and planned parenthood with forced sterilization. This all occurs because love, morality, and compassion don't enter the equation of pure science much like a capitalist doesn't want regulation so their greed addiction (cancer/imbalance) can be fed to oblivion.
    To the atheist, this is blasphemy.

    Scientifically speaking, the universe is not expanding, it is collapsing in on itself under the force of gravity, and it is accelerating.(confirmed late 90's-acceleration)
    When scans were done on human brains, and they went back a decade later and rescanned, they found the configurations changed. When they zoomed in further, they found the same configurations were still there, but they had shrunk.
    Since I conceived this idea 25 years ago, I have not found anything scientifically or religiously incongruent, or in contradiction to what we have confirmed so far.

    Now, I could be wrong, because I am not all knowing, nor am I perfect.
    I am not going to slam this down anyone's throat, nor am I going to attack those who think differently than me. What I do know is humanity is in severe need for a paradigm shift in thinking, or we better quit having children for their sake if we wish to continue on the path we're on. I do feel it is time for this idea or something similar(preferably better if possible) to take hold, but I haven't seen one yet. In any case, I hope what I have written makes those who read it think, not necessarily like me, just think, because we are running out of time.

    If you don't believe me, that is okay, I won't be offended. If you can find something that better explains existance, I am all ears! thanks for your time, best wishes, and live long and prosper!
    P.S: If those who respond can't be nice, then don't bother responding, because you are not clever, you are just not nice. With that said, it is okay to disagree. Either way, at least I have given people something new to chew on, instead of arguing over the same old nonsense.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_I2LQODL7U4QRPJAZM4WU7YEWOU LDD

    I totally agree with you brother :)

  • ps45678

    @ awful_truth,
    I thought it very nice that you said 'if you can't be nice than don't bother responding'. So, that's exactly what I will try, because I disagree with your thoughts.
    First of all, in my opinion you are just using a metaphor upon which you build your worldview. Much like saying 'trinity (father, son & holy spirit) is like water; it can be liquid, frozen or steam but it's still water'. That sounds very nice, but it doesn't make it true. That's exactly what you do with your concept of duality. Furthermore, science and religion do not present any kind of duality anyway, because they are about completely different things, unlike quantum mechanics and relativity which explain the behaviour of particles vs. bigger objects. Religion just has nothing to say or contribute to the field of science.

    I'm not even going to say anything about that 'universe=brain-idea'. Becasue it is rather impossible to follow your train of thought there.

    But I just want to add that what you said about love & compasssion having no place in 'pure science' (as opposed to what?) is completely untrue and also what you say about evolution being only about survival is obviously wrong. Evolution is only about reproduction, I know the phrase 'survival of the fittest' is misleading, but I really wish people would get that right!
    And in reproduction compassion and altriusm play a big part.

    Okay, that's about it. I hope you're not offended in any way, I was trying to be nice :)

  • ps45678

    @ awful_truth,
    I thought it very nice that you said 'if you can't be nice than don't bother responding'. So, that's exactly what I will try, because I disagree with your thoughts.
    First of all, in my opinion you are just using a metaphor upon which you build your worldview. Much like saying 'trinity (father, son & holy spirit) is like water; it can be liquid, frozen or steam but it's still water'. That sounds very nice, but it doesn't make it true. That's exactly what you do with your concept of duality. Furthermore, science and religion do not present any kind of duality anyway, because they are about completely different things, unlike quantum mechanics and relativity which explain the behaviour of particles vs. bigger objects. Religion just has nothing to say or contribute to the field of science.

    I'm not even going to say anything about that 'universe=brain-idea'. Becasue it is rather impossible to follow your train of thought there.

    But I just want to add that what you said about love & compasssion having no place in 'pure science' (as opposed to what?) is completely untrue and also what you say about evolution being only about survival is obviously wrong. Evolution is only about reproduction, I know the phrase 'survival of the fittest' is misleading, but I really wish people would get that right!
    And in reproduction compassion and altriusm play a big part.

    Okay, that's about it. I hope you're not offended in any way, I was trying to be nice :)

  • domzadoom

    faith in family faith in friends faith in government..most important faith in the human race and hope for the future. when that is said i think more towards science because the things we learn we pass on to future generations.i feel that when it comes down to religion the people who wrote the religious books, i.e bible,koran,etc.(which happend over many years i know),where just telling us there views on,the meaning of life,and the most important is this are yous ready for it>>> it helps the believers feel better about the fact that one day they will be dead and gives them hope for life after death..if there was or is a god i dont think he would want us worshiping him all our lifes i think he would want us to make the most of our lifes and pass the Knowledge we have gained onto others to continue the human existence so when it comes down to it we all depend on others to gain our knowledge in the end we all must have faith...the past is the past, what we already know is the past, the future and the now is where all the answers are not the past embrace the future..

  • awful_truth

    Hi ps45678. I just wanted to say thank you for your thoughts regarding my post. As with many things, it is impossible for me to convey all my deductive reasoning for you to understand why I have arrived at my conclusions. (in a short blog) With that said, I respect your position, and I am sure you have your own reasons for your own conclusions. If we all thought the same way, there would never be any evolution of thought from the exchanging of ideas. Being able to disagree without resorting to uncivil behaviour is paramount, especially regarding a topic that can never be confirmed with certainty. Now if everyone else could follow our lead, imagine the possibilities! Best wishes to you(yes, you were nice) and live long and prosper.

  • awful_truth

    Hi ps45678. In my response to you, there was something I forgot to mention that you may wish to consider. You said that science and religion are not duality, they are just completely different. This is precisely why they are duality. Science(provable) and religion (unprovable) are opposite sides of the same coin trying to explain existance.
    You are correct that my idea is a metaphor, but it isn't to support a worldview but to draw a parallel to show that I am drawing conclusions from a scientific perspective as opposed to one created from pure fantasy, or indoctrinated bias.
    I could be wrong, but it is my opinion this is why you can't follow my train of thought regarding a universe -brain parallel because you have been so put off by man made subjective religious perspectives,
    (I don't blame you) that any idea of a higher form of life is now repulsive to you, and prevents you from giving any new ideas a fair hearing. Anytime we prevent ourselves from expanding our horizons, will ultimately limit our growth as individuals. As I said in my original blog, I am not interested in looking for support of my ideas, just to make people think. You are obviously intelligent, and if you applied yourself, perhaps you could come up with something even better than I have.
    Either way, I am sure we can agree that there isn't some all knowing man in a white beard tallying our good deeds on a laptop, determining whether or not we end up in some utopia or eternal damnation. These are bizarre ideas and were created to control the public for the material benefit of the few. Best wishes, and live long and prosper.

  • a_no_n

    Since the vast majority of out Athieists are from Christianized countries, it doesn't really make much sense to specifically target Islam...Unless you've an underlying hatred of the people who practice it.

    Don't feel too persecuted for being asked questions about the most basic tenant's of your faith. It applies to all religious gibberish!

  • a_no_n

    Hes not open minded at all.

    The problem with opening your mind, is that people often try and fill it with crap!

  • oddsrhuge

    This doc would definitely not make me think that I was an "Atheist". Listening to a "creationist"?

    SOLD!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Torgeir-Von-Der-Tannenwald/585146135 Torgeir Von Der Tannenwald

    i don't remember which philosopher said something like an open mind should never be an end in and of itself. the point of opening one's mind should always be to close it around something more sturdy.

  • Rich E.

    i am a firm atheist. well i dont even need to use the word atheist and i dont introduce myself as one because its just obvious. Anyways... i dont think this documentary is helpful. its juvenile and making fun of people's (even ridiculous religious ones) only turns them away and makes them deaf to your message.

    if we really want to help unveil their eyes and lead the sheep to understanding then a more mature approach is needed. im thinking of the tone of someone like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc.

  • Charlie_PenDragon

    HEY oddsr!!! It's Charlie PenDragon hahahaaa Happy New Year and a Merry Christmas!

  • oddsrhuge

    Hey Chuck! Happy New Year.

  • emenot

    Religions were by design and allowed by ancient governments/rulers simply because they cannot afford to and unrealistic to rule distant land/regions. Doesn't anyone realize that common rule of law and religion preaches the same principle of good and evil of peaceful civilization? After all religion are of no financial cost to governments! Many of them even generate enormous revenue such as the Vatican(richest private bank), Christianity(10% of personal wealth, Buddist(seen driving Rolls Royce, Mercedes and wearing diamond Rolexes). What about all those Evangelist convicted of fraud and all those priests and preachers that was/is convicted of sex abuse and misconducts.....

  • Lary9

    Outstanding review of the many reasons that I only risk exposure to delusional H. sapiens at shopping malls during periods of great consumer need---otherwise I hide in my house with the shades drawn, shopping online, armed with my Darwin and waiting for the local pre-rapturous Pentecostals to attack me like ravenous zombies.

  • http://www.facebook.com/sebastien.wajer Sébastien Huenges Wajer

    I live in Belgium and I went to catholic schools all my live (I have to point out that "catholic" here means that the schools were just not organised by the state, since we only have those two systems (catholic and state schools)). We actually learned from our teacher of religion that to be a "good christian" you have to be an atheist. Christianity's most important message, he said, was to love your neighbor like you want to be loved yourself. And you have to do this completely selfless. This means that you have to do this not because of fear for some god or anything, but because you want to... I do not believe in god or religion, but christianity explained in that way seems like something much more meaningful than what is usually heard.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_DC7W5GF3P6TYP6NQHOXHXQYKLI X Grand Daddy

    you don't believe in god but are Christian. I am thoroughly impressed! Christians usually use this Jesus character to scare civilians into paying them money. If the priest can't drink and live life for free then Christians have failed

  • http://www.facebook.com/sebastien.wajer Sébastien Huenges Wajer

    No, I didn't say I am a Christian. I am an atheist. I am just telling what I learned in a catholic school from our teacher of religion. And I thought it was a new and different way of looking at religion. And I think that if one chooses to be religious, this viewpoint seems less harmfull than scaring people into whatever because of the prospect of going to hell...

  • Heinno777

    LOL - Good job at ridicule - no argument though. Science proofs the need for a supernatural creator - big bang proofs beginning of the universe, if there are multiverse, then each one of them needs a beginning as well - so no escape! Also we can absolutely know evolution did not create all species - if this was the case we would not see distinct species, all living forms would just differ minimally (there would be hundreds of intermediate forms between fish and reptiles, between reptiles and mamals etc) - not talking fossils, just living today. Math also show that the number of species is always going down from year to year - been the case since the cambrian, so no evolution - at least since then. Not enough data from before to draw conclutions.

  • http://www.facebook.com/cchristiankg Christian Klinckwort Guerrero

    Very base ignorance

  • PLsmscientist

    The other day I met God near a pub. "Hey God. I love the many great nature manifestations on this planet, but you seem to have completely screwed up when creating mankind. Where you under drugs?" God's answer "I had to ran to the holy toilet, in those 5 minutes something went wrong, I'm sorry that you have to live in a world surrounded by bigots. Anyway he is a number. When you die you are eligible to go to Paradise on the priority lane".
    Just imagine how many christians will meet other undesirable christians (they neighbour, their bad family member) in paradise and start asking themselves if God has been bribed.

  • batvette

    outstanding comment!

  • batvette

    All good points, though when I reached the bottom:

    "and were created to control the public for the material benefit of the few."

    Found something to differ with. While there are a few who benefit materially, society as a whole does benefit from the "fear of God" doctrine implanted into those who cannot restrain themselves from following primal urges. As well the instilling of morals in children, "he sees you while you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows when you've been bad or good so be good for goodness sake" depicts why atheist parents are perfectly content telling the little white lie of Santa Claus to their children. They don't have God on the job for them.
    While I am agnostic leaning toward atheist, I nevertheless have to point out to hard core atheists- the ones who would tear down religion entirely:
    If theists are so dumb/crazy/misguided.... why would you want to take away the one thing that keeps them busy and off the streets at night, so to speak?
    I base this on a guy I met from Texas who questioned whether I believed in God. He was one of those animals they build prisons for, and if he wasn't in church every day hearing it pounded into his head "thou shalt not fornicate with they little sister" by golly he'd be doing just that in short order.

  • batvette

    Me thinks this "joy" you are talking about is joy in the sense that ignorance is bliss. Their idea of changing the world for the better is everyone accepts the spirit of Jesus Christ into their hearts, amen, and that's a better world.
    Shall we all pray for fishes and loaves to fall from the heavens and feed the billions of hungry?
    Shall we follow the Christian/Catholic philosophy banning birth control until the population reaches 10 billion? 20 billion? How is "go forth and reproduce, we gotta beat those Muslims and Jews to be #1" which maintains that edict, changing the world for the better?

  • awful_truth

    Hi Batvette. I just wanted to let you know that I completely agree with your suposition of the value of religion regarding the 'fear of god'. This does not change my belief regarding religious implimentation concerning control of the masses. As with many things, life is a double edged sword or as Newtonian mechanics states, for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. There is no doubt in my mind that the fear of god keeps many people's worst actions in check, which is a good thing. The down side is Christian crusades and muslim jihads which are nothing more than mindless fanaticism, and incongruent with the meaning of the books they were derive from. Ulimately, good people come in many forms whether it be agnostic, athiest, or of a spiritual pursuasion. The underlying constant is the ability to show compassion, and empathy which only occur from 'thinking'. If you get an opportunity, check out a documentary called the doomsday code, which epitomizes religion run amuck when right wing christian fundamentalists disregard the first 26 books of the bible, and focus soley on revelations and 'the rapture'. Let me know what you think of it. Take care, and live long and prosper!

  • batvette

    thanks for that, we have much in common in ideology on this issue. to clarify I wasn't disagreeing so much as adding to all the excellent points you'd made.

    one question, you post elsewhere with this handle? perhaps the message boards at GameFAQS a few years ago?

  • quiv240sxse

    if there is no god then the universe created itself, so the universe is god
    the greatest miracle of life is the mystery of it.

  • awful_truth

    Hi Batvette. For clarification, I only blog on documentary sites, or sites regarding new scientific discoveries. (eg: neutrinos faster then light - for the record, this didn't prove Einstein wrong, only that neutrinos are massless objects- my opinion based on solid information unlike those who state differently)
    It wouldn't surprise me if there are others with a similiar handle, so if you find it used on gaming sites, it isn't me.
    Regarding the clips called 'the thinking athiest', early on they state Einstein was an athiest - don't believe it for a second! I have studied the man for over 30 years, and while he had a tendancy to keep people guessing about many things (even the topic of religion)he was a very spiritual individual. In fact, this was a driving force in his scientific pursuits.("did god have a choice in how the universe was created?" and his 20 year argument with quantum physicist Neils Bohr where Einstein never wavered that "god doesn't play dice with the universe" - in this, Einstein was wrong- regarding quantum mechanics that is)
    For this reason, people must pursue knowledge from many sources. Only then does the credibility of those who don't have any become obvious. While I did find some humor in some of it, some of the information was just completely wrong.
    Take care, best wishes, and live long and prosper!

  • cclovins

    Christianity is based on FAITH. Some say, “There is no GOD”. What they are really saying is, “there is no GOD for me”, and there will not be a God for them.

    My God has given everyone free will to choose thier destiny, and each and everyone will choose where they will spend eternity.

    I really feel very sorry for those who don’t have the Peace and certainty of a much better place. If I thought this was all there was, I would be very sad and depressed. But I’m not, Our Creator made us to know him. He has given the very essences of life and substance to believe.

    Nature and Science show of his great handy work. Man himself was his greatest creation, given the image of the maker. This is why some people will choose to believe in themselves for they think they are the most intelligent.

  • ReSparky

    Love this stuff

  • ReSparky

    "I really feel very sorry for those who don’t have the Peace and certainty of a much better place. If I thought this was all there was, I would be very sad and depressed." Fear of no afterlife is a horrible reason to believe in something with no proof. Your god has not shown anyone that he is here. Even if we don't yet have an explanation for some of the things that happen in this universe, we will. People used to think God made the sun rise...
    I can choose to tell you that i believe my left shoe created the earth and will save me when die. I can argue that it's true because i know it is true. You just have to believe and have faith. Bottom line is, when you look at it all objectively, both our gods are ridiculous and there is no proof for either of them.
    Ask yourself a simple question. If you were born in china what would be your religion? You would be buddhist. Not because "you know in your heart it's true", but because that is what you were taught to be from birth.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Hugo-Costa/100000492357766 Hugo Costa

    I'm an Atheist and my peace comes exactly from knowing that when i die i'm not gonna spend eternaty in hell, i think that I can't have a more peacefull thought that that but that just me. In relation to the question of "Is there a God or not", i think if you believe in one than for you that being exists, even if in reality he doesn't but i guess no one will ever know because you can only be for sure if he exists is after you die and supposedly go to hell/heaven.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/John-Jacquard/1210162491 John Jacquard

    why do people act as if those are the only options possible for the nature of reality where is the blockage coming from? this video is great and explains the ignorance of religion yet shows the same hypocritical way of thinking.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Travis.Sichel Travis Stuart

    I am Atheist, and I do agree with much of these video's, However I feel that they lower Atheism down to the sad level of many other religions.

    Seems like a whole bunch of bible bashing to me, made to make fun of religious people and make us feel smug and superior.
    I believe we should respect all people and their beliefs, while strongly demanding the same respect.

    That said if they show you no respect then they deserve non by you. Take people on an individual basis. Respect those who respect you, if we attack all religious people as a whole in this manner, we deserve no respect in return.

  • jellis13

    Why do the nations say, "Where is their God?"
    Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.
    Psalm 115:2-3

    Just because we know we revolve around the sun doesnt mean god didnt put it there. In the first chapter of the bible god says let there be light, then after the earth is created.

    " Bottom line is, when you look at it all objectively, both our gods are ridiculous and there is no proof for either of them" the bible is written by over 40 authors with the same God and many prophetic books claimed the birth of Jesus 700years prior to his birth. Isaiah 40:22 says "It is he who sits above the circle of the earth" claiming the earth is round in 700BC as well.

    Back in the book of leviticus which was written over 3,000 years ago God says "blood is life" when in those times and those nations believed that bloodletting was healthy (if you had too much blood they believed it was unhealthy, as well as pleasing there Baals and Asheroths)

    God the Father reveals himself in the old testament many times, and the son Jesus Christ in the New testament. Prophets were in Isreal telling people to repent, Christ fulfilled the New covenenant, we are no longer in need of signs, we need people spreading the law and teaching what is given to us.

    The lord moves in quiet ways, when the Lord talks to Elisha in the 2Kings, he causes earthquakes and fires, but the Lord doesnt appear, he whispers to Elisha. This shows he doesnt move in great shows of might he speaks to the hearts of men.

    one day we will all bow down to God, no matter what everybody here believes, the question is are we going to bow in worship and love accepting his mercy, or are we going to bow down in fear because of our rebellion?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/John-Jacquard/1210162491 John Jacquard

    how do explain all of the anomalous data in regards to materialism then?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/John-Jacquard/1210162491 John Jacquard

    reminds me of all the jocks in the locker room beating a kid up because he didn't wear name brand shoes . love how the narrator goes on a rant in one episode about how science has contributed so much tech and made everybody's life better and creationists don't appreciate it blah blah wah wah . yet he never has an explanation for the anomalous findings in science that points to consciousness as fundamental instead of matter. seriously how can you be an atheist at all without looking at what makes every object in the universe atoms and particles make them up are not physical at all just information of probabilities collapse of the waveform by consciousness . do you honestly think info that it fits with a Newtonian paradigm? or do you think that just avoiding the anomalies that have been replicated for 100 years is the answer lazy is what it is .remote viewing replicated you can even teach people how to do it!, the scole experiment proved existence the soul, psi phenom prooved hundreds of times. just as christians get their info from a 2000 yr old book (closed system) an atheist gets their info from a science book which is mostly based on a 18th century paradigm (Newtonian) in order to subscribe to materialism as the only reality. so from my eyes I see hypocrisy in this video series because the narrator only brings up all the areas that science is comfortable with which cannot account for everything in reality which represents atheism as ignorant and uninformed.

  • Fred Bazzeeda

    please specify which your are speaking about.

  • Fred Bazzeeda

    keep on rambling, but please, could you bring some facts, truth and logic to your post and the conversation.

  • kenifvintage

    proud to be an atheist

  • jellis13

    I brought up all three actually, facts,truth and logic, i quoted scripture and it is apparent how those quotes apply to the current world. The bible was written by over 40 authors spanning 3,000 years, where there is no contradiction in it, all focusing on the same God. lack of detail doesnt mean lack of truth. and some books are vague and others are very detailed (luke,acts, and many things the apostle paul wrote) science doesnt have all the answers.

    "Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
    But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead." (1 Corinthians 15:12-20ESV)

    If there is no god i am to be pitied amongst all men. But the fact is that there is a God

    "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" Hebrews 11:1

    if you have questions or comments definitely do so and i will answer back to the best of my ability

  • Tobias Dresler

    Quoting the bible is not using facts, being written over 3,000 years and over 40 authors is not a positive thing. and it have plenty contradictions. It was not written about one god. at least not in the the old testament, it have been revised and politically rewritten so many times, that if christianity is the one true religion, it have been altered so many times that it has nothing to do with the original god-concept of christianity. if you could just get rid of that better knowing, ''i'm right and i know i am for a fact'' attitude, you would all be more tolerant company. there are so many different forms of religion and spiritualism but yours is the the right one ? it is an narcissistic assumption that you are the one meant for greater good. everyone has this notion, you just project it unto your religion.

  • Fred Bazzeeda

    "The bible was written by over 40 authors spanning 3,000 years, where there is no contradiction in it, all focusing on the same God"
    Sorry, but you need to do your research. The bible was written by many authors approx 60-150yrs after the death of christ. Also, it is full of contradictions. Stop your ignorance and passing off things that are false.

    Second, you have quoted only scriptures from the bible. Now, lets see some real proof and facts. Quotes from the bible do NOT count.
    Remember, its is the same church which said it was heresy to say the world was not the centre of the universe. What happened to Galileo?

    Not one fact you have presented for your statement of "But the fact is that there is a God"

    Now, please, reality check.

    Peace and truth, not lies and hypocrisy.

  • Colin Williams

    The Bible has 2 sections..... There are a few books about events before Christ.......

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/FLKERVQN7RMN4VH7P2TISGR55U Luis Tamarez

    that is a very true statement indeed, I myself find that the biggest contradiction is God himself or herself if you will. Take this for example God loves everyone equally and its the embodiment of love however what of Sodom and Gomorrah and the plagues that hit Egypt i mean killing children is not very Godly like thus we end up with a God that is both vindictive, cruel and wrathful as well as light, good and everything nice. And if that doesn't get nuggin cooking think about how God is described as being omnipotent, perfect and all knowing yet allowed Lucifer to turn against him and if one believes the all knowing part one has to wonder why? there are a couple of possibilities that spring to this lowly human's mind 1) we are just pawns in this game between heaven and hell, a game that was invented and orchestrated by God, 2) The devil as created completely by accident 3) life and all that it comprises your hurts, your triumphs, your failures etc are nothing but an illusion along with free will 4) God is just the embodiment of the very real human fear of the unknown, a mind shield against the irrational fear of the metaphorical darkness or the abyss....there are hundreds if not thousands of more possibilities and they will all change depending on your beliefs however i am a rational man and my religion and mind shield is REASON and as that i have to admit that i can't know and don't know everything therefore my mind remains open until it can be convinced not with meaningless words like faith or a "feeling" but with hard evidence. Until then, i just can not believe in any one deity. As a final statement i must say that Heaven and Hell are just way too boring, i mean infinite bliss is just as bad as infinite pain in that they mean nothing one can only measure happiness but the pain and sadness one has experienced before and vise versa. If heaven and hell are as described I'd rather pass into the void leaving only my accomplishments, the memories in my surviving loved ones and my flesh an bones providing food for microorganisms and plant life...I simply refuse to greedily want to remain after death be it in Heaven or Hell.

  • jackieroberts1

    I don't have a problem with religion. People have the right to believe as they wish but I do think that at the beginning of every religious service the preacher should be made to speak an oath that "there is no proof that god does, or ever has existed. However there is proof that people has used religion to control entire societies".

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/FLKERVQN7RMN4VH7P2TISGR55U Luis Tamarez

    that is very true, "we all have the same privileges" and i commend you for being one of the few reasonable Christians out there...however there is grand majority of Christians that will read the Bible about God and the 10 commandments and then go on to say that either they or God hates Gay people. Apparently God loves all his children {fine Print} except for gays, lesbians and so on, or Muslims, Jews or any other religion, or atheist. I mean is it really free will if the only way to into haven if by worshiping God and not by doing good things..and lastly if i do something for the exclusive purpose of pleasing God am i really doing something good or am i just working for some sort of reward...these are the many issues i have with religion...However don't get me wrong i am not attacking your belief or faith, i only get pissed off when religion is used as a way of judging and hate like it is commonly used now a days...I believe in reason and under that belief, you and everyone in the world is entitled to believe in anything you want so long as you use it for your own betterment and not as an excuse to judge, attack and hate others that have not done anything to you other than living...I believe that the basic message in most religions is good and some people may need it to be good people but much like communism (the idea that everyone should be equal and have an equal paying field) on paper it sounds very nice and well but in practice human nature distorts it

  • jellis13

    i get deeply upset when the bible is used to talk down to others as well. believe it or not i actually DESPISED christians, i never wanted anything to do with them. I was agnostic and a group of christians walked up to me and my friends and they were pretty much condemning me to hell and they told my friend who believed in god who was right next to me to not hang out with me because i will just bring him down. It is people like that who bring down the faith, not raise it. after that experience i had many problems with christians, but then i met a pretty good guy at work and asked him some questions about christianity because he's a bible major at biola. After he explained some things i noticed that the other "christians" who talked to me honestly werent even "christians" the main message of ALL religions is LOVE. not to say all religions are the same (afterlife, resurrection, sin, law, heaven, hell, so on and so on) they all teach you how to live up to good morals in this life and that we can't debate (unless sadly people take scripture and distort it to fit their life which isnt good, should only be one interpretation, but many applications) but my whole life i let other people tell me whats in the bible, then i decided to read it myself. As for gays and lesbians, yes according to the bible it is sinful(the reason why is because you can't create life which is something only god and man and woman can do), but also lying and stealing is a sin, god sees it as obidience and disobedience. I also agree that people USE the bible as an EXCUSE to do whatever they want and at the end of the day they ask for forgiveness.... The bible actually looks down on this. Confess sins AND repent, a change of attitude and a change of heart, you are progressively working to get the sin or bad out of your life, not take gods mercy for granted. Our works wont get us into heaven no matter how good we are, we can feed homeless everyday for the rest of our lives but we still fall short of the glory of god, the reason why we do good works though is to glorify god and to show that the faith is living. Christianity was used to control groups of people no doubt, but it wasnt biblical.... Governments used it to their advantage, but that doesnt mean it was biblical or something that god wanted, in fact the church was VERY TWISTED and sadly some still are. God was actually against any man made government and wanted his people (as well as gentiles to serve only him). Thank you for being mature on this subject, i knew when i posted on here i would get many negative responses same as if someone on this comment section would get negative responses on a christian documentary. I thank you for listening and we can learn much from eachother.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_6AY3TWWTLQRK3LFEOD2K4VNHBQ Amanda

    If all religions are just about love, why not just love your fellow many and forget religion?

  • jellis13

    Religions arent just about love, they are on the surface, but the Core is very different in many religions. Judiaism says jesus isnt messiah, christianity says he is, and islam holds christ as a prophet but it is blasphmy to call jesus god. Christianity is having a vertical relationship with God, but for that to happen you need to have a good horizontal relationship with men and women, Christianity at it's root is about loving others. Even jesus said Love the Father with all of your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. Thats alot of love, not just treat them well but love them as yourself. Sadly most Christians do not do this but, that is what the religion encompasses

  • Ben Stelle

    Religions are false idea-logy, pretty simple don't clam things you don't have proof of and promise people what you can't give. if religions just did this none would care what they preach.

  • jellis13

    Claiming religions as false idealogy is a big statement, and there is proof for mannnnny of the things that has happened in the bible(just look at Isreal and how the Jews religion and their history is intertwined, i would suggest watching Case for Christ if you have any interest. Even if you are skeptical its still a great movie to get an understanding of evidence of Christ.

  • Ben Stelle

    I've already heard of many stories in the bible have been proven wrong along with obvious ones like Noah saving all the animals from the globule flood by collecting two of each animal... I don't believe Israel has rights to that land as much as i believe Everyone in the world has right to Africa (The Homo-Sapiens Birthplace) but I'll watch your "great movie" to see if there really is any "evidence of Christ" (Which is still no evidence of God or a Creator).

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_M6F3RJVEWJ24QKMCHFNVK7ADVE Winston Smith

    If our beliefs are evidence based, there is no choice in what one believes, -while hopefully keeping an open mind. According to you, whatever we believe, is what actually exists. You believe in 'god' so god will actually be real because of that belief. I guess this is true if we are limiting the reality of god to one's own mind but when we talk about the existence of anything we usually mean independent existence. So if god does exist whether people believe it or not is not going to affect it's status as something that exists in the universe. No explanation of contradictory traditions and faiths, or the tens of thousands of religions that have existed throughout the short history of mankind, is necessary to consider, huh?
    According to you, they are all correct by virtue of someone simply having believed in it as this is the only criteria you state. The Mayans, who practiced human sacrifice, or the Greeks, who believed in many different gods, were correct. If you dont see how fallacious this reasoning is, then it is less than likely that I could ever say anything that would make a difference.
    Maybe the reason the bible states that man is made in the image of god is to convey that man is a spiritual (or mental) being as opposed to a physical one. (we are both) but this makes sense when you consider that we never experience anything but through and within the confines of our own minds. So everything we see as out there,, is actually only ever within us, where it is perceived. This is why Blake said, 'Mental things are alone real.' But does not make sense in light of the fact that there is no real reason to postulate a man-like creator god and ONLY ever immediately begs the question, 'where did god come from then?' while telling us nothing about the universe or ourselves.
    Our brains are a subsequent part of this process/creation. A creation that involves an unfathomably ancient [15bn yrs old] universe containing tens of billions of galaxies, each containing billions of stars/suns. So how can we hope to grasp the whole of it? To name it's creator and know it's will? When you have faith in this what you are actually saying is that you have faith in man. Because it is men who wrote the bible claiming to be touch with god. Today, we know more than ever before but none of it has come from religion. Science that has given us this knowledge. Look what is really in the bible. Not one person writing there condemns slavery because they do not think there is anything wrong with it. Not even in the 'New Testament' do we ever see a condemnation of this barbaric practice. And just Look what men have done -and do, when and where religion is, or was, prominent. It was men of Christ who burned millions of 'witches' alive because it is commanded in the bible only to discover there is no such thing. The writers of the bible did not know this. Or that the world is a globe. And so on. Worse still, it makes men believe they know the will of God and are instructed by god to act in his stead. That their tradition alone is the 'one true doctrine' and anyone who disagrees is necessarily an enemy of god. The worst of it (incitements to hate and intolerance) are probably in the Old Testament/Torah and the Koran, but all of them, the New Testament included, have this message.
    Religions are cultural phenomena. One would, most likely, not be Christian if raised Muslim in Pakistan or Buddhist in Tibet. So it is sheer chance. We must use modern moral sensibilities as guide for what is appropriate anywhere in religious doctrine and so must pick and choose, lest we stone our neighbor for working on the sabbath. Yet we are told these are 'unassailable truths' so the most radical followers are usually the people who are actually doing what the book instructs. God does "hate fags' according to the bible. It says homosexuality is an 'abomination' and they should be killed outright! This is why today in Iran people are killed by the religious state for being homosexual. In Saudi Arabia for that or witchcraft. (no wonder the aliens won't talk to us) So it will always drag people backward to it's outdated morality. Are you familiar with the study done on Israeli school children by psychologist George Tamarin? It is very revealing.

    "Tamarin presented to more than 1,000 Israeli schoolchildren aged between 8 and 14, the Book of Joshua’s account of the Battle of Jericho. He then asked the children a simple moral question: Do you think Joshua and the Israelites acted rightly or not? They had to choose between A (total approval) B (partial approval) and C (total disapproval). The results were polarised: 66% gave total approval, and 26% total disapproval, with rather fewer, 8%, in the middle with partial approval.

    Here are three typical answers from the Total Approval A group. ‘In my opinion, Joshua and the sons of Israel acted well, and here are the reasons: God promised them this land, and gave them permission to conquer. If they would not have acted in this manner, or killed anyone, then there would be the danger that the Sons of Israel would have assimilated among the Goyen.’

    ‘In my opinion Joshua was right when he did it, one reason being that God commanded him to exterminate the people so that the tribes of Israel will not be able to assimilate amongst them and learn their bad ways.’

    ‘Joshua did good because the people who inhabited the land were of a different religion, and when Joshua killed them, he wiped their religion from the earth.’

    The justification for the genocidal massacre by Joshua is religious in every case. Even those in Category C who gave total disapproval, did so in some cases for backhanded religious reasons. One girl for example, disapproved of Joshua’s conquering Jericho because in order to do so he had to enter it. ‘I think it is bad since the Arabs are impure and if one enters an impure land, one will also become impure and share their curse’

    Tamarin ran a fascinating control group in his experiment. A different group of 168 Israeli children were given the same text from the Book of Joshua, but with Joshua’s own name replaced by General Lin and Israel replaced by a Chinese kingdom 3,000 years ago. Now the experiment gave opposite results. Only 7% approved of General Lin’s behavior and 75% disapproved. In other words, when their loyalty to Judaism was removed from the calculation, the majority of the children agreed with the moral judgments that most modern humans would share. Joshua’s action was a deed of barbaric genocide. But it all looks different from a religious point of view, and the difference starts early in life. It was religion that made the difference between children condemning genocide and condoning it.” -Richard Dawkins 'The God Delusion'

  • Juan Cortes

    If so many people across the world are practicing this religion with such confidence, then they probably read these stories as lessons or metaphors. There's no way all these people believe this book to be 100% true.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/John-Jacquard/1210162491 John Jacquard

    can an intelligent atheist explain a very simple explanation to me and i will accept it as valid? okay, to hold a atheist worldview you must examine the very things which everything is made of to get to the truth correct? how do you explain in Delayed choice and quantum eraser variations with buckyballs visible to the naked eye a outcome of an experiment depends on a human or instrument observing the outcome? if this was a materialist world matter would not be influenced by an observer correct? i have never in my life met any individual with any education that can verify materialism in this instance when dealing with the very essence of what we are made of. this information stays strickly in an area of science.
    every materialist and atheist i have ever met did not consider this information that is verified a thousand times and almost a hundred years in the making. so lets here it you speak of proof the pudding is right here and I have a giant overfilled bowl handing it to you.

  • over the edge

    @John Jacquard
    first off "to hold a atheist worldview you must examine the very things which everything is made of to get to the truth correct?" no sorry to qualify as an atheist all you have to do is not believe in god. atheism makes no claims of knowledge and weather someone can explain Delayed' s choice is irrelevant to atheism. the burden of proof lies with those claiming the knowledge (religion) and thus far no empirical proof has been given to me.

  • Xin Lin

    this is just the trailer, how do i watch the full documentary?

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    I don't think anyone really disputes that Jesus walked this earth. The dispute lies in the belief that Jesus is a Christ, Jesus is the son of God, and most fundamentally, there is a God.

  • http://twitter.com/AdamMVillarreal Adam M Villarreal

    Actually, most serious scholarly investigation says that Jesus did NOT exist. He was inserted into the timeline about 60-120 years after his supposed death by people who founded the religion. There is no historical documentation of his existence outside of christian writings, which is the opposite of anybody else in that era who had such an impact. Read some of Robert Price's writings, they're insanely well documented and researched and painfully beautiful to read.

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    Please define "serious scholarly investigation" and the investigators with their credentials, if you don't mind

  • Manu Hashidate

    Francesca Stavrakopoulou. Professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Religion, University of Exeter. This scholar denies the existence of not only Christ - but Moses too!

  • hayesane

    I think you made a terrible mistake to renounce God. Whatever your reasons are, you will have noyhing to say when you stand before God..

  • hayesane

    Hey mate,looking for evidence to prove God's existrence?
    just surprised that you haven't found any evidence yet!
    Have you ever heard a bird singing making sweet melody? have you ever seen the stars in the sky brightly shinning,the sun rising and setting or a flower that blooms beautifly? These are all evidences that proves God's existence! what more are you searching for? something big? Hope you know the God who is the creator of the universe...

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Samuel-Morrissey/627791008 Samuel Morrissey

    No none of these things are evidence that prove gods existence. Bird singing proves - bird sings. Stars shining proves - stars shine. Sun setting/rising proves - earth is revolving. flower that blooms beautifully proves - flower is alive and you are looking at it, and in your opinion it is beautiful. Why would you think these things were evidence of anything else? honestly?

  • Achems_Razor

    It is the other way around, the religious humans created all the invisible gods in recorded history, and the invisible gods are only in the mind, nowhere else, unless you can show me a real movin' and a groovin' god? Otherwise your post means squat!

  • neglid

    Atheism is not a religion. It takes a lot of soul searching before becoming an atheist.

  • hayesane

    Oh my dear friend, it seems you're still blind=can't comprehend what i'm talking about: look beyond the bird, flower,sun and the stars and you'll see their designer=GOD!

  • hayesane

    There is only one true GOD who is the creator of the world and all that are in it...He is an Invisible God...but his creation proves his existence and tells us how great he is...

    It's surprising that you still don't know him....want to see him and prove him...sorry impossible....hope you know!

  • over the edge

    @hayesane
    you stated "his creation proves his existence " i just have one question. all this looks created to you?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Samuel-Morrissey/627791008 Samuel Morrissey

    I looked beyond the flower and saw - earth. I looked beyond the bird and saw - sun in the sky. I looked beyond the sun and saw - stars. I looked beyond the stars and saw - galaxies.

    You can call me blind but this seems a mere projection of your own weakness. Open your eyes and look beyond your god, what do you see?

  • Manu Hashidate

    ...or,

    D. M. Murdock - check her tenure on wiki

    Robert Price - Professor of Theology and Scriptural Studies

    Many people are so deeply indoctrinated with the Christ myth that to even consciously suspend the thought that Jesus, as a man, may never have existed, causes a kind-of paradigm seizure! I've read plenty enough of the myth of Christ to be convinced of such. 'Cept if I boldly blurt that out to Christians and non-believers alike, they BOTH still argue the point! I had someone genuinely storm out on me, screaming "anyone who doubts the existence of Christ is seriously fooling themselves. The bible was written billions of years ago." D'ya get that - 'billions' of years ago? That's seriously blind faith, in my opinion!

    Others just stop at the 'alternative' history of Christ, which is also a nonsense, though the late Laurence Gardner does have some very interesting things to say on that with his 'Albion' version!

    The New Testament... or, the bit about Christ is a thin slither at the rear of one hefty tomb that is itself a select compilation of older 'books'. And 'Jesus' is a rewrite of 'Joseph' from the front bit - the Old Testament!

    i.e. a con-job!

  • hayesane

    Absolutely! without any shadow of doubt, GOD Created it All..."In the Begining GOD created the Earht". and this is how he created it=
    GOD 'Spoke' the world into place=He created all out from nothing, but by the power of his Words He spoke into place: Believe it or not, regardless of our reasons to deny his existence,GOD is great!...He was, He is and He shall be forever great!

  • over the edge

    @hayesane
    where is your proof of these claims? how is your proof any more valid than the proof of the creation claims by other religions? you stated "Absolutely! without any shadow of doubt, GOD Created it All" so what you claim is clearly not an opinion and only an irrational fool would make a claim with that much certainty without overwhelming empirical evidence would they?

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    It's offensive as Hell when believers state that agnostic/atheists cannot hold a moral compass, yet a believer's morality is only in place out of fear of retribution. "God is watching, always watching."

    A good agnostic/atheist is moral because [generally] they just know right from wrong and have no 'parental' all-seeing eye manipulating their character. In essence, they are good because it's good to be good!

    Now I ask, which morality [should] hold more weight?

  • Achems_Razor

    Bulltweet, the gods are ALIENS, we are the sons of alien gods? and the sons of god came down and got some little girly's pregnant, says so right in your bibles, and in (Ezekiel 1:4-6) a spaceship was sighted many times. Get with the program.

    Funny religee's!

  • hayesane

    sorry, it seems to me that you don't understand and you don't yet know how to interpret my BIBLE! (GOD'S WORD).

  • hayesane

    Absolutely! I wish you should know what I know.

    Yes, a fool will always say 'there is no GOD!'

  • ProudinUS

    What was the meaning behind that dude that got swallowed by the fish thing all about ?

  • hayesane

    Look beyond the galaxies and you will see him (GOD).
    I look beyond my GOD and see his power,glory n greateness; he is ever present-all knowing and all mighty GOD. Forever he reigns!

  • over the edge

    @hayesane
    ok it is clear you have no desire to actually answer any questions and i am wasting my time. anybody can make claims and not back them up. you are either a troll,delusional or so indoctrinated you lost the ability to have a rational debate.whatever one is true i give up

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Samuel-Morrissey/627791008 Samuel Morrissey

    I looked beyond the galaxies and saw - more redder galaxies.
    I looked beyond the red galaxies and saw - faint microwaves.
    I looked beyond the microwaves and saw - absolute darkness.

    Is this darkness your god? but no, it is on the inside of your eyelids I think, hmmm?

    Put down that book, fella. It's had its day, a very very long time ago now, and to be frank it has apparently damaged your mind. Did no one ever tell you that you shouldn't believe everything you read?

    Come and evolve with us, before it is too late. Come and achieve your potential as a human being, take responsibility for your thoughts, actions and words, don't remain forever a child, praising a parent who was never there. Come and do what is right, because it is right, and not because a Hebrew ghost 2000 years dead whispered it to you.

    Sincerely, Sam.

  • Manu Hashidate

    Precisely... Ms Stavrakopoulou says "Jesus, most scholars would agree, that he existed" i.e gingerly skirting 'round committing her own opinion on the empirical existence of 'JC'.

    Ask yourself though... if she doubts Moses and David, d'Ya think Jesus holds any truck with her?

    Anyhoo... I just e-mailed her and asked!

    Watch this space!

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    Will do! I quoted her saying that because it proved my original point, that people (the majority) aren't questioning the existence of Jesus, but his role in religion. Regardless, you and I are on the same team. I am looking forward to her reply.

    Respectfully,
    Drewgasm

  • Manu Hashidate

    Yeah... well... drat... she hasn't replied yet! She's a Professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Religion and an internet rock-star! So, I guess she's busy! 'Hope she responds soon.

    My point, to your point is: yes, 'most' scholars truly are dim-bulbs on the faith-front and are generally too-chicken to speak out, or may well convert on their deathbed, but 'serious scholarly investigation' IS to had from Ms Stavrakopoulou - and she goes way further than Israel Finkelstein's exposure of the 'kingship' of David and Solomon debate - and actually denies Moses!

    And, how about Tony Bushby? He's well-capable of 'serious scholarly investigation', and even says 'Jesus Christ' is a variant of the original 'Hesus Krishna', which is truly a wind-up for believers who use 'the' Christ i.e. as a title (crocodile fat or no) if His name really is derived from the eastern god - 'Krishna'.

    And what of non-believers who still elect to argue for the factual existence of the sandalled-one either as some wishy-washy 'Maitreya' or 'Emmanuel'-type that once must have existed, or those who simply defer just to keep the peace with their zealous, believing acquaintances and family?

  • liammacroibin

    Obviously there is a god. The fairies at the bottom of my garden told me there was. And they got it from the pink unicorn herself, So there you go.

  • liammacroibin

    Please review your medication. You may have mis-read the dosage. Come into the light of reason.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    and a fool will always say "there is a god, and its the one I worship"

    an intellectual will say he/she doesnt know and is waiting for evidence.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    how do you know the bible is gods word?

  • TheRealMax

    Theist non-thinkers, keep up the ineptitude, burning bridges

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    People, stop responding to hayesane. can't you see he's a troll? *facepalm*

  • juan_mass10

    This is the Most Stupidest one sided norrow minded belief.God's plan is divine and perfect for those who do His will, but people sought out inventions that leaded them into perdition.

  • juan_mass10

    The 10 commandments are Good "IF PEOPLE WILL FOLLOW" and God's words will still remain,if you will read the 10 commandment one by one you will understand its all for good purpose.Only those people who do not believe in God are doing ungodly actions, coveting neighbors wife, killing men, stealing, worshiping idols.You need to make a better research rather than thinking inside the box on to which your mind is narrow focused.

  • over the edge

    @juan_mass10
    you stated ".Only those people who do not believe in God are doing ungodly actions,coveting neighbors wife, killing men, stealing, worshiping idols." really ? wow people of faith do these things every day. please tell me you didn't honestly mean that?

  • http://twitter.com/chudddds D

    some of americas worst crime, poverty, and education areas are in americas bible belts. look up the statistics for all 50 states, follow where the godly live and see for yourself. and its "covet thy neighbors house" , not wife. youve been debunked

  • breadoflife

    The will of God is to believe on the One Whom He sent. The whole Hebrew Scriptures point to who that Someone would be. He pre-existed time and is the same as He was yesterday as He is today and will be when He makes Himself known to you in the future. The problem with that is if you don't know Him by then you fall under His judgement. I would rather warn you now than just pass over your comment. At the time you meet JESUS I hope that you already made the right decision. There will be no friends to support your comments as they will be without words.

  • Manu Hashidate

    The way your capitalise certain words indicates you zeal- blind zeal! Is it right to capitalise 'Whom', 'Scriptures', 'Someone', 'He', 'Himself', 'Him', 'His' or 'JESUS'? No, it's not... it's bad grammar in combination with deferring to something outside yourself!

    Light is consciousness! And Jesus' story is recycled 'Joseph' from the first part of that compiled-by-man tomb - the bible!

  • breadoflife

    I believe that every reference to God be it a name or pronoun should be capitalized out of respect for His greatness. What is a free thinker if he has no light to guide him? The guiding light has to come from outside of the self. Jesus said "I am the Light of the world". I have taken a step into a direction of faith not zeal. Zeal is of no use to anyone who would seek the Truth. Jesus also said,"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free".

  • breadoflife

    Like the BOMB!!!!

  • breadoflife

    If the bible ,as you say,was written 60-150 years after Jesus ,how is it that a copy of the book of Isaiah dated to 200 years BC has been found?

  • Isis666

    Because isiah is in the torah (the old testament)! The book you call a bible was compiled years after jesus died. After all nowhere is it stated that jesus read "the bible". Hope that helped

  • breadoflife

    Greetings isis666:
    Since the bible I read includes Genesis1:1 through Revelation 22:21, I guess that puts Isaiah right in the middle. By the way the Torah is the law and includes only the first five books written by Moses (Genesis,Exodus,Leviticus, Numbers and Dueteronomy {a second giving of the Law}). I hope that clarifies things.
    Getting back to Jesus reading the bible, He obviously was well versed as He quoted it back to Satan in the wilderness and was asked to read from portions from it when in the synagogue.(ie.Luke chapter 4 verses 18,19) He also said that He was the fulfillment of all that was read from Isaiah 61:1,2a.
    The New Testament is a very Jewish text. All of the disciples were Jews as was Jesus;the parables spoke to the pharisees,sadducees,scribes and Levitical priesthood warning them that they would miss out on the Kingdom of Heaven while others (tax collectors, prostitutes and sinners) would not.
    I ask you ,of whom was the prophet speaking in Isaiah 53 ? Himself or another ? The answer is clear if you really search for it with all your heart and soul. Shalom

  • Elin Nyblom

    Not that you would care I suppose but "God" or "divine" is such a more complicated thing than you describe it. I know that some people look at spirit this way but this is also the reason why you didn't understand your bible. Not saying you're stupid, because probably you will read my message like that, Im just saying that its all a matter of how you think and you try to take everything strictly by the word and if you do that you can NEVER understand spirit. If you would like to, theres a million people out in the world that would gladly EXPLAIN to you how it works. But if you would really like to know, it takes so much work on your personality and the question is if your humble and willing to.. Everything in the bible is a metaphor you know and all good priests/priestess catholic or not know this. Its the easy fooled people who do not understand that words are just words, written so many years ago. Please don't embarrass yourself with this clips saying your an atheist. It would be so much fun if you knew spirituality because this worldview that you're presenting is how one would joke about religions in my community. Search for truth don't get obstinate.

  • awful_truth

    Einstein was not an athiest. Anyone who has followed his life knows this. Personally, I can't respect the intelligence of the religious fanatics or the atheists, because they all suffer from bi-polar disorder. (I believe in hot, so cold can't possibly exist- mentality) Life (consciousness) exists due to broken symmetry. (imperfection) Science and faith are opposite sides of the same coin, trying to explain existance. (both have truth)They are extremes of potentiality like hot/cold, up/down, left/right, evolution, intelligent design, etc. Since life exists as a result of the combination of these 2 extremes, (and everything in between), you can all quit arguing about your respective positions. The universe (god) is not the problem, only peoples descriptions, and expectations of what that is, is what causes the problem. I will leave you all with a quote (paraphrase) from Bruce Lee. Life is a void, that is all inclusive, neither for nor against. It is a living void, and anyone who embraces it, will have a love for all things.

  • http://www.facebook.com/tintin.mowgli TinTin Mowgli

    err these points are insulting to actual atheists your not actauly debating real points your just taking the piss. for exaple: the problem of evil, you havent even touched on the real issue! freedom of speech, christians (that think) belive that god gave us free will, that means the evil we are subject to was created by us not him, if you want to stump them exsplain that this means no miricle can be true as to PROVE his exsitence would take away the free will of those who exsperinced it thus stripping them of the most important thing for a truly reldgious person - belife in god.. . not by saying there were other disaters going on as they can easily say those people had done something wrong and deserved to die, or god could see they would so something wrong and had to kill them or that they were chosen for being good and it was time for there suffering on earth to end and for them to go to heven, if we're gona save people from stupidity, ignorance, and hate, start with yourself u plonkers!

  • Lumixian

    And...you have idea what you're talking about.

  • Teddy Mcd

    Granted the humor is caustic but when reason fails and one is not into out and out slaughter (lots of that in the bible - huh) - then use it.

  • olefaithful

    funny how there are so many atheists on TDF wiling to impose their views on others with their logical reasoning and all the 'answers' they have found and so few religious/ Christians here defending their faith which supposedly provides few, if any answers...which leads me to wonder how the Church really did and does manage to evangelize and still hold the community together even 2000 years after Christ. That's a miracle in itself!

  • Gibran78

    Albert Einstein was not an atheist.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/John-Jacob-Schmidt/100001987467422 John Jacob Schmidt

    Einstein is often quoted as saying that he did not believe in a personal God so I guess Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions are out. So, if he was not an atheist, what was he?

  • robertallen1

    No, it just shows how st*pid a vast number of people like you are.

    And the only reason your Church manages to hold communities together (and whether it does is open to debate) is to extort money from them.

  • robertallen1

    You've got everything backwards. When it came to Old Testament prophecies, the New Testament was merely self-serving.

    If you're saying that there is a god, it is up to you to prove it, not the other way around.

  • robertallen1

    Which proofs are you talking about or do you know?

  • robertallen1

    Wrong. Such a man existed, but that's as far as it goes.

  • robertallen1

    How do you that all these are evidence of God's existence. Sounds like a cop-out to me.

  • robertallen1

    In other words, you wish us to know nothing.

  • robertallen1

    "That leaded them into perdition?" Your grammar is as ignorant as your "thoughts."

  • robertallen1

    How do you know the ten commandments are god's word?

  • robertallen1

    How do you know this?

  • robertallen1

    In that case, I will use lower case.

    And no, the guiding light comes from within. Anything else is cowardice and alibi.

  • breadoflife

    You are entitled to your own opinion but are also responsible to God for holding that opinion. God loves you but your anger ,hurt and pain within keeps you from knowing it.The pharisees shook their fists at Jesus and it got them nowhere . God is love and to know Him you must drop everything and embrace Him. You have only one life to live but if you haven't embraced God through the only One sent to us earthlings,you have missed out. This is all I can tell you, the rest is up to you.

  • robertallen1

    What makes you think you know all this?

  • Achems_Razor

    @breadoflife@

    Well it seems that you are at least responding not like some of the religious trolls, all though you are endlessly droning on with all your gods and demons.

    No your Christ was not the light of the world, if he even existed was an insignificant almost invisible carbon unit, way to small to even consider in the time scale and vastness of the cosmos. GROW UP! you know nothing!

    Funny religee's!

  • robertallen1

    Fine, but one thing. Biblical scholars of all persuasions are pretty unanimous that Jesus Christ (not his real name) existed--of course, that's as far as it goes. Bart Ehrman of whom I assume you are familiar has just written a book about this entitled "Did Jesus Exist?"

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    It seems to be a "miracle" because you chose not to educate yourself. This is a serious problem with much of humanity... choosing not to investigate for themselves, instead, making rash determinations that justify their faith. It is quite sad that only rash determinations can justify faith, and even more sad that so many sheeple blindly use this tactic.

    The only thing atheists are guilty of is "imposing" proven truths. So sorry to enlighten you. ;)

  • robertallen1

    "sheeple" I haven't encountered that hybrid before., but it's cute and deadly accurate.

  • Achems_Razor

    I know, but still not evidence that would hold up in a court of critical public opinion, not even good circumstantial evidence, that Jesus, not the man, but the light of the world whatever, existed, Flavius Josephas in his "Testimonium Flavianum" ("TF"): was know to be a fake.

  • robertallen1

    I'm sure you understand that I'm referring only to "Jesus" the man.

    Am I correct in assuming that you are familiar with Bart Ehrman? I have read the book I mentioned in my last post and while the passages in Josephus are analyzed (but not necessarily supported), there is far more to the book than just this source.

    In addition to what's mentioned in the book, there are two passages from "The Passing of Peregrinus" of Lucian which, although they do not mention "Jesus" by name, are clear in their reference. Also there's the passage in The Annales of Tacitus which, though pretty much in passing, is more detailed than Lucian. While both sources are about 100 years later, considering their authors, they are more likely based on fact than fiction and considerably more reputable than Josephus, the opportunistic turncoat.

    The argument about holding up in a court of law is not worthy of you. First of all, a court of law is not the forum conveniens for such an issue and secondly, the existences of lucretius, Manilius, for example, might not either, but scholars are pretty much in accord that such individuals existed.

  • docoman

    There will probably always be silly, gullible people if you get your way and stop education. The miracle is that your church has been tolerated for this long. Hold the community together... hold it back is more accurate.

  • docoman

    I found one of Lucian's observations interesting. Christians from the very start seem to be a very gullible, easily misled group of people. They'll believe a lot without good reason or thought. It seems in that regard nothing has changed for the last 2000 years.

  • robertallen1

    You really do your homework! I found this quotation germane and by extension, the same thing can be said for Muslims, etc. which intensifies the validity of Lucian's observation. It's fortunate that we still have quite a number of his writings. Have you read any of them?

  • robertallen1

    As I mentioned to Achem, "olefaithful" never responds, but shoots forth oblivious to everyone and everything like a violent attack of diarrhea.

  • Achems_Razor

    Not that familiar with Bart Erhman, you are right about court of law, changed it to critical public opinion, if there is such a thing because of the religious majority.

  • docoman

    Only a little. I liked his sense of humor and imagination in A true story. He no doubt would have been interesting to talk with, well traveled and educated.
    Trained as a law man wasn't he? Christians may not have changed, but lawyers seem to have, a lot. lol.

  • robertallen1

    It would certainly be advantageous to familiarize yourself with Dr. Ehrman. I have read about 7 of his 20 books and am glad I did. Not only that, Dr. Ehrman answers his e-mails.

    Let me tell you a bit about him. He started life as an evangelical Christian and attended seminary, but the more he learned, especially when he began to read the scriptures in their original language and study their history, the more of a Doubting Thomas he became. He is now an agnostic who teaches at Chapel Hill University and is regarded by his peers as one of the top New Testament scholars in the country. In addition to his books, especially "Misquoting Jesus" and "Forgery," you might want to take a look at some of his videos, especially his debates with James Lane Craig, on U-Tube.

    Your thoughts?

    P.S. "Critical public opinion," an oxymoron if I've ever heard one.

  • robertallen1

    Do you recall in the introduction to "A True Story" where Lucian states that everything about it is false. Don't you think that such an "honest" statement boots both respect and kinship? Somehow, he appears to me as a Hellenic version of Kenneth Williams of Carry On fame.

    P.S. No, lawyers have not changed. They've only found more ways to sharpen their teeth and fatten their pocketbooks. Sharks refrain from eating them out of professional courtesy.

  • docoman

    I found his introduction to 'A True Story' quite entertaining. He tells you he's full of sh1t, so sit back and enjoy the ride. :) I liked it very much. That would make a good introduction to the Bible I think. ;) But as you said, it was an honest statement. That wouldn't have passed the canonization process no doubt. Although, contradiction doesn't seem to be a problem, it might've slipped though.

    A Kenneth Williams quote I like;
    "It's frightening to think with? modern medicine and all the technique available to them...they can't really help you..In the old days, you know, you were better off because nowadays, they are all specialists.Everyone's becoming better and better at less and? less ....Eventually someone's going to be superb....at nothing"

    I think you guys found her. Palin. ;)

  • robertallen1

    Can't you imagine an introduction like Lucian's coming right before Genesis 1:1? And you're right, honesty and canonization go together like vinegar and ice cream.

    Had Mr. Williams only lived to meet Sarah Palin--and speaking of sappy Sarah, I don't understand your last line.

  • dewflirt

    Balsamic vinegar, strawberries and coffee ice cream - very tasty ;)

  • docoman

    An introduction like that would make it a more understandable read for sure. That would make sense.

    It was just a thought that popped into my head. I think Palin seems to be superb at nothing, other then ignorance. I thought how funny and enlightening it would be to see Williams interview Palin, he'd chop her up before she'd even notice I'd bet. Pity he's dead.

  • docoman

    Hmm, sounds like a taste you acquired whilst pregnant? Can't say I've even thought of that combination let alone tried it. :)

  • dewflirt

    Sorry, it was coco pops for me. You should try the other though, scrumptious :)

  • robertallen1

    And an introduction like that would have put every fundamentalist out of business.

    And pity there's no one to replace Mr. Williams, but that's the price to be exacted for uniqueness.

    Maybe we should start a list of those superb at nothing. I'll head the list with every religee who's ever posted on TDF. I hesitate to include the Catholic church because it is superb at conning the ignorant and credulous and by that same token, Jerry Falwell, Peter Popoff, Billy Graham and Oral Roberts simply don't make the grade, however low. If, as you suggest, Sarah Palin is to be included, we can't slight Michele Bachmann, Hillary Clinton, Gloria Steinem, Oprah Winfrey, Barbara Walters or Ellen Degeneres. Perhaps every U.S. President after Truman, except for Nixon and Bush, both alpha and beta (con men and liars extraordinaires). Your thoughts?

  • robertallen1

    I don't know which sickens me more, your concoction or Tony Blair.

  • Cineplex

    Lucy is a hoax.

  • Art4chv

    Lucy is not a hoax go reed a science book or go to school cineplex you sound ignorant!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_QAXHQTTABZJXAB3JP7A254MT7Y GodmanEnki

    WAYYYYY too short!

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/ZXJJQQMAN2BDVWLDNKCZGGBCWY Alturnative Electronics

    notice the symbology of the light bulb in the mind- so really he's saying he is a trans humanist- probably population control type

  • http://www.facebook.com/neil.gillespie.18 Neil Gillespie

    I take my hat off to this man, not only is he in a country were its hard to even say the word atheist, he also seems so at peace and happy with his life now.

  • zxqky

    That was fun.

  • mysteryman7

    How about making a documentary about the atrocities of atheism? More deaths, genocide and inhumanity have been caused and created by atheist such as Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Lenin...etc than any religious institution in modern recorded history combined. Those are just the facts.

    Here is why atheism...a belief and a religion in itself is a disease. It is because it puts all of its faith into man...that man and science have all the answers. Man has always failed humanity throughout history. Science...and the attempts of man to emulate what God has created has always had catastrophic consequences in the end. Look at the Nuclear disaster in Japan right now as a perfect example. How about when those artificially man made germs are let loose into the world and we find out that there is not a cure. Don't forget to mention the genetically engineered crops that do not self pollinate, but do corrupt other organic crops making them die out and possibly go into extinction. You can link the mass outbreaks of salmonella and mad cow disease directly to the genetic manipulation of animals to make them bigger quicker. I won't even go into the ionosphere heaters such as HAARP which is currently causing disruptions to the earths magnetic field in which has, in will have a devastating effect on the planet.

    If man had all the answers, then why did it take thousands of years to do things differently? Why was there not an industrial revolution before the creation of America? Oh...it was religion right? Did you ever consider that knowledge and lack of understanding of it will be the cause and destruction of humanity and probably all life on earth? Perhaps that is why cerrtain things of science where kept hidden...because God knew that man would abuse it and destroy everything with it.

    God is not an institution and perhaps that is where atheist fail in their assumptions. Institutions are corruptible...all of them, whether you are talking about a political party, an ideology such as communism and capitalism or a religion such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam...and yes...Atheism. They are beliefs in which men try to convince other men into believing for their own gain much of the time. Then again...that comes down to men once again doesn't it? Mao was an atheist and he murdered many millions who practiced the belief that their is a higher spiritual power in which man and nature were created. Atheist like Mao want their self to be the end of faith and when a person strays outside of that...they attack, kill and try to make white all of those that would go beyond man to explain things that are not understood.

    Like I have said, all things are corruptible that man does, but some things are less corruptible and some ideologies are much better suited towards peace and good will because they are not oppressive in nature. Out of all of them, Atheism is the absolute worse. That ideology that you mister, have all the answers will let people down time and time again. When people decide that you don't have the answers and they practice their belief in God...what will you do then? If history is any guide, you will make them dig their own grave and you will line them up and murder them for it. That is what every atheist that has ever come to power has always done.

  • robertallen1

    I suppose that the Crusades, the witch burnings and the Inquisition, not to mention the Guyana massacre, 911 and the recent poisoning of female students by the Taliban, were all good because the malfactors espoused a belief in a supreme being. Did it ever occur to you that Stalin,Lenin, Pol Pot would have committed their atrocities with or without atheism, without or without theism--and by the way, sometimes Hitler called himself a Catholic (from his mother's side) and sometimes a Protestant. In other words, your treatment of belief in a god as a gasket against evil is as lame as your knowledge of history.

    As religion is a belief in a higher being, atheism like agnosticism is not a religion in any way, shape or form and I resent your attempts to demean it to the level of one. If your sense of morality and ethics (right and wrong) derives from faith (read reliance without evidence, hence idiocy) in some third party whose existence you cannot prove and is by its very nature is unprovable, then you are merely seeking a scapegoat in the delusional and the manufactured. By contrast, reliance on one's self evinces far more strength of character than anything your or your belief system has come up with and if this is atheism, it beats anything you or others like you have to offer.

    Your post espouses a Bronze Age mentality, coupled with an attempt to stifle knowledge and keep the world down to your level of ignorance and superstition. Science has accomplished a lot more than your unsubstantiated belief in a higher being ever will.

    In short, what you stand for flies in the face of education and intelligence.

  • Achems_Razor

    @mysteryman7:

    What a bunch of manure you have written. "All things corruptible that man does"??

    If you follow your asinine religion...Deuteronomy-32:39-42...kill...I wound......I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh.

    "Some" of your gods most impressive slaughters...the great flood...Gen 7:23- (20,000,000)

    Sodom and Gommorrah-(7000)

    First born Egyptians-Ex-12:29-30...(500,000)

    7 year famine-Gen-41:25-54...(70,000)

    Seventh plague of Egypt...(300,000)

    Much more to add, but estimated 25,000,000 and that was in the days of yor, hardly anybody on the planet then. Won't even go into the atrocities committed in the name of religion some hundreds of years back and recently. And since I presume you take your bibles literally means that you can not cherry pick!

  • robertallen1

    I can see where you got your quotes, but where did you get your statistics?

  • Achems_Razor

    Sorry, I should of entered it.

    dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.ca

  • robertallen1

    I went to the site, but didn't find any statistics. I asked the question because there's no evidence that any of the events you listed ever occurred.

    However, I believe your point is that, unlike religion, no slaughter has ever been perpetrated in the name of atheism.

  • Achems_Razor

    If you mean statistics in real life, these stats are following the story line of the bibles, as in great flood etc: not real to atheists but real to religee's and so on. The site encompasses Christianity, Islam, Mormon, and such. I suppose some of the atrocities really happened as stated in the bibles. Anyway a good read. And if the religee's discount that what is written in their bibles is not real, then they will know they will be hell bound!

  • Teddy Mcd

    You're obviously lost. Good luck.

  • robertallen1

    I checked the site again for statistics and found none.

    Genesis 19 which tells of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah gives no statistics and neither do the two sections to which you referred. Therefore, my question remains, where did you find the statistics?

  • Achems_Razor

    Go on the site, scroll down to "A biased sample" click on "How many has God killed? (complete list and estimated total)" Again must add it is just following the storyline of the bibles, can not vouch for what is on that site.

  • robertallen1

    Found them. Site does not indicate how the estimates were calculated although the question is beside your original point.

  • Achems_Razor

    Do not know how it was calculated although the Noah's Ark thing would be easy since the flood wiped out all humans except Noah and gang. 20,000,000 estimated. There is a blog on that site, ask the owner how he deduced the rest if you want.

  • mysteryman7

    See, you are wrong, Atheism is a belief system. It is a belief that man has all the answers and understanding. People of faith believe that the answers are found in God. That is the contrasting difference. You do not have all the answers and you never will. People that follow men that think they have all the answers are only setting themselves up for a lot of disappointment. On the same token, I believe that people that follow religious institutions in the name of Jihad or revenge are the same kind of idiots. Anyone that says you must kill in the name of God is not a man of God in my opinion. That does not mean that God does not exist and it does not mean that good people do not get caught up in the propaganda and mind manipulation of media and do bad things. You know what, it is a natural instinct not to trust your fellow man. For that reason, the circle of trust for an Atheist is much smaller than that of a person of faith. I am curious, which of the Ten Commandments do you find offensive? Is it, thou shall not kill, honor thy mother and father, do not covet your neighbors wife, shall not steal. Atheist can't take credit for those good moral guidelines so they try so hard to have them removed from everywhere they are found. If I had to guess, an Athesist would be all for murdering every person of faith, destroying all the history books and then taking those commandments from God and claiming them as their own. Isn't that right

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    "Atheism is a belief system. It is a belief that man has all the answers and understanding."

    not a single atheist claims to have all the answers and understanding.

    in fact it would be the people claiming to know a god is real and to know which one it is are the ones claiming to have all the answers. atheists look to science and try to find answers and admit when they dont know something.

    "People of faith believe that the answers are found in God."

    you mean they believe the answers are in a book written by men who lived in the bronze age.

    "Anyone that says you must kill in the name of God is not a man of God in my opinion."

    King James Version (KJV)
    Genesis 22 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

    2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

    "I am curious, which of the Ten Commandments do you find offensive?"

    the first four are offensive because they are so stupid, and the lack of a thou shalt not rape or thou shalt not keep slaves, or thou shalt not treat women as lesser people....etc.

    "Atheist can't take credit for those good moral guidelines so they try so hard to have them removed from everywhere they are found"

    christians cant take credit for them either since they are found in all cultures and found before christianity. nothing about morality is dependent on christianity. morality is something that naturally evolves in social animals.

    "If I had to guess, an Athesist would be all for murdering every person of faith, destroying all the history books and then taking those commandments from God and claiming them as their own. Isn't that right"

    NO.

  • robertallen1

    People of faith are, like yourself, people of limited intelligence who seek a supernatural third party to make up for the soft spots in their intellection. Far from having all the answers, they don't have anything approaching even one.

    And talking about god, which god? Yours or somebody else's? And by the way, why should we take your word for it that god exists?

    As a whole, the ten commandments are merely provisional and therefore are far from "good moral guidelines." The first five are religious and don't count. As for honoring father and mother, suppose my father were Charles Manson and my mother were Vilma Barfield? As for not coveting my neighbor's wife, that's none of anyone's business. I'll covet what and who I want. As for stealing, suppose I were starving and needed the proverbial crust of bread? Also, it might come as a shock to you but the ten commandments are social-political statements and nothing more, but you wouldn't know this because you know nothing of history.

    It's ignorant religees such as you who would destroy history books and any other works which go against their creed, not athetists. It is ignorant religees such as you who try to inflict their idiotic religion upon others, not atheists. It is ignorant religees such as you who try to inject their sacerdotal rubbish into public schools, not atheists. It is ignorant religees such as you who try to worm their way into other people's privacy by pushing for laws against contraception and abortion, not atheists.

    So don't guess, you're neither intelligent nor knowledgable enough to do so with any depth or validity.

    With your lack of education and your dependence on Bronze Age superstition and dogma, you have the temerity to call me wrong? You are despicable.

  • mysteryman7

    You are a very funny person. I am really having a good laugh. You have proven my point.

  • robertallen1

    Don't insult my intelligence with your fairy-tale dichotomy between ancient and modern history. It's all history and where one ends and the other begins is a nugatory consideration. No atrocity has ever been committed in the name of atheism which is more than I can say for religion, despite your specious rationalization.

    Don't further insult my intelligence with your vapid ejaculations about a god whose existence you cannot prove and which by nature can't be proved. Your god is no more than a peg on which to hang your warped and mindless belief system.

    Your ignorance of the history of the bible renders you incompetent to comment on it in any manner approaching intelligence and your allusions no more than empty, disjointed references. Coupled with this is your ignorance of Greek mythology of which the bible serves not as a contrast but as an analogue--but again, how can someone as uneducated as you be expected to know this?

    You lump all atheists together under the aegis of Marxism--I bet you haven't even read anything by Karl Marx--to use as a springboard for your milk-and-water homiletics. How dare you tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body--and how consistent that you use what you construe to be a correct interpretation of the bible to do so, as if the bible were relevant.

    I'll take man (read knowledge and intelligence) any time to the spiritual Disneyland you have to offer. The only good thing about religees such as you is that they give intelligent and educated people something to despise.

  • mysteryman7

    While I respect your opinion and your belief, I find it to be severely flawed. I don't really care if you are an atheist or not. It really has no bearing on me unless you start trying to oppress me or my family and our belief. You are free to practice your non belief, but you are not free to oppress others in practicing theirs as long as it does not infringe upon your own freedom. I could sit and say a prayer over you right in front of you and it impedes you in no way shape or form. Likewise, you can spew your hatred for God all you want in front of me and it really has no bearing on my longevity of life unless you physically try to harm me. That is something atheist are very good at by the way...forcing people through violence and fear to stop practicing their belief in God in the open and in private.

    You do see that in the world today...especially the United States, no one is trying to force their faith on you. It is Atheist that are trying to force their belief that there is no God on everyone else. Your statements and the dumb wad before you about the ten commandments and how they are not moral values goes to show that an Atheist can not be trusted. If you are for murder, taking another mans wife as your own, disrespecting your parents, stealing...who would ever want you as a friend or a neighbor. It must be a lonely world as an atheist because with a lack of moral judgment, no educated person would ever want anything to do with you. You have proven my point as well as the other. Go ahead and take another wife, kill someone because you do not like the fact that those laws are undeniably associated with Judaism. See where it gets you in the end.

    Why did Mao, Stalin, Lenin and Hitler, destroy or co opt religious people? They did so because if a person has a belief in something greater than them, then those people will not pledge allegiance to them. It was those leaders that destroyed the history books. It was Hitler that made the occult famous. When words are written by atheist about how the Ten Commandments are not good moral values, it proves the danger in such ideology that is founded solely around Marxism. Good luck with it.

  • mysteryman7

    Hahaha...you are rich man. Good luck with your superior intelligence and knowledge. You are too funny. Thanks for making my day.

  • robertallen1

    Why point is that, the one about your limited intelligence?

  • mysteryman7

    May God watch over you and give you insight to all your misguided ways...Amen! You are fun to chat with. Thanks for the good time.

  • robertallen1

    " . . . especially the United States, no one is trying to force their faith on you. It is Atheist thantare trying to force their belief that there is no God on everyone else." Give me one example of the use of violence and fear by atheists in the name of atheism to prevent theists from practicing their beliefs in the open and in private. On the other hand, I can think of numerous instances of religees trying to force their beliefs on others. Have you ever heard of the religious right? Do the names Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell ring a bell? What about the Taliban? So this gives the lie to your first and second paragraphs.

    Now, let's get back to the state of your intelligence of which the following is a sample: "Your statements and the dumb wad[?] before you about the ten commandments and how they are not moral values goes to show that an Atheist can not be trusted." And this non sequitur passes for reasoned thought? You in all your religious zealotry are certainly no prize and I would never want to be seen with you, much less have you as a neighbor--and probably a meddling one.

    Catholics do not pledge allegiance to some higher being, but to the Pope--and don't insult my intelligence by attempting to rationalize this with the statement that they are really godless--you might have the temerity to make such a determination, but certainly not the knowledge. In this country, we basically pledge allegiance to our constitution, a non-denominational document which beats the delusional star to which you've hooked your decrepit wagon.

    "When words are written by atheist [this time with a small a] about how the Ten Commandments are not good moral values, it proves the danger in such ideology that is founded solely around Marxism." So it's all right if theists do not believe the ten commandments are good moral values--or is it really that everyone must share your belief system or else. Again, this gives the lie to your first and second paragraphs.

    In short, you have the values of a hypocrite.

  • robertallen1

    And you and pharisees like you are too pathetic and ignorant to be funny.

  • robertallen1

    Your rebuttal consists of terming us misguided. That says everything.

  • mysteryman7

    I love ya man...the world would truly be a boring place without you.

  • Achems_Razor

    @mysteryman7:

    You are the one that first came on this doc one day ago and started to run down all atheists spewing your religious garbage.

    And now you are crying the blues, you have no ammunition to continue on, with your gods that are in you mind, the bronze age bible stuff? us atheists probably know more about your holy books of terror than you. Read the Old Testament sometime. That is all I will say to you, you are a complete waste of time!

  • robertallen1

    And the world would be a better place without you and those like you.

  • mysteryman7

    Are you trying suggest that you would just line every person of faith up, give them a shovel to dig a trench and then shoot them dead in front of it when they are done?

  • mysteryman7

    Can I ask you something? Are you offended...you know, as a person that follows the religion of atheism, if someone tells you to go to hell? I have always wanted to know?

  • robertallen1

    How many times do you have to be told that as atheism does not espouse a belief in a higher being, by definition, it is not a religion.

    Your second point is ignorantly puerile.

  • mysteryman7

    You need to go back and read your Marxist manual. Atheism as we know it today started with Marx who was inspired by none other, Robes Pierre of the French Revolution. They called him...The Incorruptible.

    Who in the hell gave you the last word of when a baby is a baby anyway? A partial birth abortion is a murder of a child while it is being born. If you have not seen an abortion, go find one and you will see that child fighting to get away from the needle that is about to kill it.

    You have proven my point again...that abortion is a thing of atheism. People that believe in life do not murder innocent people and who could be more innocent than that of an unborn child. Even the Muslim does not believe in abortion.

    I am against abortion, but since I can not do anything about it, maybe you people will abort yourselves out of existence. One of these days your marxist buddies in power will expand your eugenics program to murder handicaps kids and senior citizens that do not fit in your Progressive Utopia.

    You also...as well as your ignorant friends that like to make fools out of themselves debating me, assume I am a christian, catholic or whatever. I do not remember disclosing my faith. I love debating your types because you always resort to some kind of ridiculous argument or attack that makes your cause look quite pathetic. Being an atheist by nature makes you oppressive and that oppression leads to atrocities. I am one to defend life against your kind. When you come, I will be waiting patiently. No fear here my friend.

  • mysteryman7

    You believe in man as the higher power! You believe that man has all the answers! You believe that man has all the solutions to the worlds problems. So in that belief, it is in fact classified as a religion.

    I stand with athesist on certain grounds and I can see why people raised in a particular faith could become a non believer. Men corrupt institutions and there is nothing worse than having an institution who claims a certain set of values and then totally ignores them. They are all guitly and all those institutions have corruption in them because they are instituted by men. However, they are no more corrupted than governments or political parties who have leaders and philosophies that are not religious. We just come to expect those entities to be corrupt so they often get a free pass. My point the whole time on this blog is simply that if it is a thing of man, it is corrupted in some way. To put your faith in man to solve all the answers is simply asking for trouble. It does not matter if it is the POPE or Hitler. God is a catch all term that suites anything from Aliens to Buddha, to Christ. I do not force anyone to buy into any of them, but they all stand to reason that there is a higher power out there that created life and will hold those accountable for screwing it up. If there is no moral foundation, no belief that there is something greater than yourself, then there is a free for all, no morals...just kill anyone because I can get away with it. I personally do not really care if you believe or don't believe. I like a good debate. That is the whole purpose of creating a documentary in the first place. It is to spark debate and to create critical thinkers out of people. It not to see how many people you can find that agree with you. If you have it in your mind that you will never see the oppositions point of view whether you agree or not, then why even debate the point?

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    "forcing people through violence and fear to stop practicing their belief in God in the open and in private.

    You do see that in the world today...especially the United States"

    give some examples.

    do you think making kids pray in school is not forcing it down their throats?

    "It is Atheist that are trying to force their belief that there is no God on everyone else."

    how do atheists do that?

    " Your statements and the dumb wad before you about the ten commandments and how they are not moral values goes to show that an Atheist can not be trusted."

    how is anything i said show that an atheist cant be trusted? all i said is that the first four commandments have NOTHING to do with morality...perhaps you should go read those and remind yourself what they are.

    i would say any human who needs a god to tell them not to kill or steal is not a good person but a very dull person. Buddha said way before jesus to treat others the way you would wish to be treated. so christianity does not hold the monopoly on morality.

    "If you are for murder, taking another mans wife as your own, disrespecting your parents, stealing...who would ever want you as a friend or a neighbor."

    clearly you didnt read what i said. never did i condone those things. i think those things would make a society very horrible. THAT is why we dont do them. not because we are afraid of some eternal torture, or because we want some eternal reward. its just because we want to live happily.

    " It must be a lonely world as an atheist because with a lack of moral judgment, no educated person would ever want anything to do with you. You have proven my point as well as the other. Go ahead and take another wife, kill someone because you do not like the fact that those laws are undeniably associated with Judaism. See where it gets you in the end."

    notice how i never even closely said anything close to condoning those things....this makes me suspicious about your ability to either read properly or debate honestly.

    "Why did Mao, Stalin, Lenin and Hitler, destroy or co opt religious people? They did so because if a person has a belief in something greater than them, then those people will not pledge allegiance to them."

    those people did what they did for political gain. not because they didnt believe in a god. there is a difference between someone not believing in god doing bad things because of politics, and people who use god to do bad things. you cant compare the two.

    "It was those leaders that destroyed the history books."

    the greatest book burning event in history has been attributed to a christian mob, the Alexandria Library.

    all throughout the middle ages the churches would burn books they deemed lewd or heretical (not to mention burn and torture people). Even in early america were puritans going through the streets burning any book that went against god including one of the founding fathers books (Thomas Paine's The Age Of Reason). Even in the 60's church groups would hold public burnings of Beatles merchandise....TODAY the church has a list of banned books and the Texas christian right wing neo conservatives are trying to rewrite history in high school textbooks.

    and you have the audacity to accuse atheists of that? please give me one example in history of atheists getting together AS ATHEISTS to burn books.

    "It was Hitler that made the occult famous."

    ya and hitler was a christian. and it was the stupid history channel that did that. screw them

    "When words are written by atheist about how the Ten Commandments are not good moral values, it proves the danger in such ideology that is founded solely around Marxism. Good luck with it."

    this didnt make sense. atheism and marxism are not one in the same. the ten commandments are not NECESSARY to be moral. and the first four commandments have NOTHING TO DO WITH MORALITY.

    learn to read and reason.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    "You need to go back and read your Marxist manual. Atheism as we know it today started with Marx who was inspired by none other, Robes Pierre of the French Revolution. They called him...The Incorruptible."

    explain to me what you mean by atheism as we know it today.

    atheism just means someone doesnt believe there is a god because they have not been convinced there is one. that existed LOOOOOONG before Marx was alive. this just shows how insane your view of history and these words really is.

    "Who in the hell gave you the last word of when a baby is a baby anyway?"

    im sorry i thought since you could arbitrarily place a value on a certain moment i figured i could do the same. why is sperm not life? why is sperm as soon as it connects with an egg now suddenly special?

    i personally wait until it has a working brain, a central nervous system, and is able to live outside of the mother without help from machines.

    so who gave you the last word?

    "A partial birth abortion is a murder of a child while it is being born. If you have not seen an abortion, go find one and you will see that child fighting to get away from the needle that is about to kill it."

    actually i have seen them. it sounds like to me that you are just parroting typical christian anti-choice claims and YOU havent actually seen any abortions.

    "You have proven my point again...that abortion is a thing of atheism."

    i say again, there is more abortion than atheists getting pregnant so that is not true. you are a complete waste of my time....how old are you?

    .....i have decided that you have nothing of substance to say. i would accuse you of being a troll but i have come across enough people like you to know you arent intentionally being this ignorant towards everything being said to you.

    you are like a politician, just sticking to your talking points and ignoring any points being brought up to you.

    it is sad and i hope you grow up.

    i will say a wish to my fairy god mother that you one day learn to use that brain that the alien overlords intelligently designed into your head and see that the superstitious beliefs of some desert dwelling sheep herding bronze age retards isnt something to be taken seriously......

    wow its so easy making up and believing in crazy stories...and it makes me feel so superior!!!!

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    "there is a higher power out there that created life and will hold those accountable for screwing it up"

    what evidence leads you to believe this is true?

  • robertallen1

    You need to go back and read your history, not that you've ever done so and not that you'll ever do so. Atheism goes all the way back at least to Epicurus in the third century B.C. and modern atheism (a grudging term) did not begin with Marx, but goes back at least a century or two before. So who's the ignorant one?

    And speaking of sheer ignorace and obtuseness, what about your equation of abortion with atheism? And speaking of abortions, who the hell gave you the right to tell any woman that she cannot have one? What if the fetus (and that's all it is) is a product of rape, should the woman undergo the penalty of being forced to have it? Suppose the woman runs the risk of death during childbirth? Suppose the fetus is dead in the womb or is hopelessly vegetative or deformed--it happens, you know, but probably you don't. Better 1,000,000 abortions than one unwanted child--and it is so nice that you and others of your ilk can't do anything about it. You and your pharisaical kinfolk who regard themselves as the be-all and end-all of individual morality deserve to be thwarted at every twist and turn. And once again, don't insult my intelligence by confounding therapeutic abortion with eugenics.

    It's religion, not atheism, which by nature engenders the type of oppression leading to atrocities such as the inquisition, the crusades, the witch burnings and the religious persecutions.

    You have the effontery to believe that you can go up against the intelligent and the educated . You only make yourself look ridiculous and backward by doing so as your posts and the responses you have received bear witness.

    There's nothing inherently wrong with atheism or agnosticism, but there's a lot wrong with you and the vile philosophy you scream out.

    P.S. I am not a type and neither is Epicurus or Over the Edge, but you are.

  • robertallen1

    Man is the highest intellectual power we know of, but as has been told to you over and over again (and, of course, it doesn't sink in), man does not have all the answers and probably never will, but the answers he has beat yours by a light year.

    No person with any sense and backbone needs belief in a god of the gaskets to keep on the straight and narrow. You say there is a higher power, well, prove it--or is this what Plato termed the "noble lie?" Until you do, I'll put my reliance (not faith) in man because so far there is nothing else.

    And don't flatter yourself that your screeds even begin to rise to the level of a debate. They are simply the rantings of a myopic crank.

  • over the edge

    mysteryman7
    it is obvious that you don't like atheists and Muslims.what about people of the other religions? what about those Christians that belong to a different denomination? it is also clear that you dismiss other Christians who have done terrible things as not real Christians. so correct me if i am wrong. of the two choices religious or atheist you "chose" the right one .then out of the 28000000 gods that have been worshiped again you chose the right one then again of the approximately 38,000 Christian denominations you chose the right one again. after all that you eliminate in your group that aren't" real christians". and atheists hold themselves in high regard? you are one arrogant self deluded scary man

  • mysteryman7

    You are a delight. Thanks again for proving all my points. Out of all the atheist I have had a debate with, you are by far the most clueless. By the way, what is your purpose anyway here anyway...to convince people that there is no god or to simply find a way to murder people of faith like history factually describes over and over? If you are trying to convince someone, it won't happen by using the tactics you have chosen in which attempts to discredit someone who is clearly superior to you in intelligence, common sense and emotional IQ. You do your atheist religion a disservice with your bogus argument. I truly love it when I can get inferiors to resort to verbal attacks. It shows how much of a weakling you really are. If I was to guess, I would say you are probably close to 30 and still live with your mommy. All you probably do is play video games and sponge off people that have worked their entire lives. I could be wrong...but somehow I don't think so. Had fun, got to move along now. God Bless.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    ....pathetic

  • Achems_Razor

    Case in point! Its all most religee's have when they are bettered by atheists is their weak ad hominem attacks, by the way, don't let the door hit you on your way out!

  • robertallen1

    You are a delusional abomination who, based on your posts and the responses thereto, hasn't proved anything except his own ignorance and congenital cluelessness.

    I don't need to discredit you, the ignorance and obtuseness you've revealed in your posts (among other things, you still regard atheism as a religion) do the job far better than I could. Here's an example, "if I was to guess, I would say you are probably close to 30 and still live with your mommy. All you probably do is play video games and sponge off people that have worked their entire lives." Wrong on all counts. And this from someone who regards himself of superior intelligence, common sense and emotional IQ (whatever that is).

    In addition, you have not responded to one argument from anyone, but I guess your superior intelligence, etc. militate against this and in favor of more reiterative screeds.

    You are a failure in everything except being a failure. So why not leave thinking to those who can do it and move along as you say you're going to.

  • robertallen1

    Contemptible as well--and to think there are people who buy into this.

  • mysteryman7

    You started to have a good debatable point all the way up until the end and your last line. You are a weakling as well because of your last resort of attacking me. It was a pathetic attempt at the truth. What is it exactly I said that makes me delusional anyway? Just because you say there is no God...there must not be one right. That is the problem with all you Marxist, when someone disagrees with you, you use baseless accusations in an attempt to damage people that do not buy into your ****. When your types gain power and control of weapons, you execute them. History clearly shows well over a hundred million murdered at the hands of atheist. You are nothing but self serving id**ts. Look at your circle of trust...you have none. That is the way of an atheist. They can trust no one because you lie constantly to yourselves about everything . You will always be looking over your shoulder. That's right. Mark my words. One day, someone will use you as a useful id**t or if you have any status, another will attempt to remove you from that position...perhaps by force.

    Who said I was a Christian? Not sure why you think I do not like Muslims...just because it is a fact that Muslims blow themselves up in efforts to kill people of other religions...including the religion of atheism does not not mean that I label all Muslims as fanatics. At least they have a belief in something greater than themselves. . I do not discount any religion...including yours. I certainly would not like it if there was a crusade in the name of Christianity just as I do not like a Jihad in the name of Islam as well as a marxist/atheist takeover of my republic. We all know where that leads don't we. That does not not mean that there is no God. Even your friend Hawkins can't really fully explain how it is a bee can take flight. Why is that? Man is seldom 100% right and it is that percentage of wrongness that kills everyone. Go read some history about how faith brought morals and good will during WW2. The Germans, in the end of their defeat where told to surrender to the Americans because they were compassionate and to never surrender to the Russians because there could be no compassion from them. It is because the country of the United States is fundamentally founded upon Judea Christian values. Your values are much closer to communist Russia and China. You cling to those values...your choice. Does not really effect me one way or the other if you go to hell or not. Some day, some dictator will come along and you useful id**ts will follow along and be commanded to do some kind of atrocity just like the many times in the past. You will do it because your are so locked into your belief that even a shred of common sense will sink into your know it all mind and it will be the end of you.

    You lost man, your clueless like the other dude. Learn how to debate someone with some decency and perhaps the next time you can have an adult conversation. Maybe then you will learn something.

  • robertallen1

    Actually, I wish he would, like in the head and, if possible, a few other places.

  • mysteryman7

    lol... I love this. Good job. Keep up that good emotional work pal. You are a true professional at what I would term as a classic case of instability. You know what would be really cool, if you and the three other jokers I have been shredding with common sense can get together and play a little Russian roulette together. Wouldn't that be cool. I know you guys like dangerous games just by the religion you follow and the hatred you preach as a result of it. Maybe a few unborn babies would live to take your place as a result and perhaps some of those things that stemmed from Marxism and Atheism will be rectified. Seriously though Robby, you should really try and reach out and love your fellow man. Start by loving yourself. It is a lonely road for you to travel...you know, this godless road, and It may do wonders for that inferiority and childish reaction you currently suffer from. If I was not so busy, I may continue this on days that I need a little comedy to boost my spirits. It is so much fun it is hard to put it into words really. I may invite a few friends to join in. Na...it is better to go it alone with God on my side. Good day Chap

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    really man, you really think you have been using common sense?

    you have called people marxists when no one has once expressed their political or economic opinions.

    you have continually claimed that atheists have no morals while constantly making rude personal insults to people.

    im sorry but nothing you have said or done here leaves your position in a good light. if anything you are doing more damage for your god than any of us could dream of.

    honestly if you cant have a rational conversation and address each point, why are you even here?

  • Achems_Razor

    @mysteryman7:

    Calling everyone id**ts, using bad language, your post went into moderation and I had to moderate your post, by you using all your insults, ad hominem, means you have completely lost your argument with us that are in the know. Another religee bites the dust!! Good riddance!

  • robertallen1

    You're sick.

    P.S. My name's Robert and I don't need to hide behind a pseudonym.

  • robertallen1

    Would you please examine this guy's last post to me. There seemed to be something awfully sick and threatening in it. I hate to invoke the policy card, but you're opinion would be welcome.

  • mysteryman7

    Robby, Russian Roulette is a game of self destruction you m*ron. It is an act of self infliction and not an act committed by someone else and surely not myself. Nothing threatening about it and you totally miss the point. By the way, emotional IQ is the same thing as emotional intelligence or knowing when, if at all to get emotional. You sir, are not smart enough to realize that you have been bested. It is a lonely road for you. I pity you really.

  • mysteryman7

    People of faith are not a threat to you. Like I said dwarf, if I told you to go to hell, would you be offended? By the way, your friends started the language by insulting me with words like abomination. I made a comment on this page suggestion a legitimate argument to your religion and you dirt bags responded in a disrespectful way. Go play that game I su

  • Achems_Razor

    I examined said post, It seemed like an implied/veiled threat to all of us three. Will warn him.

  • Achems_Razor

    @mysteryman7:

    Please desist from uttering threats, implied or veiled, to us as in your post..."if you and the three other jokers I have been shredding with common sense can get together and play a little Russian roulette together. Wouldn't that be cool."

    Read the "comment policy"

    Any other such threats implied or veiled. And you will be banned!

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    lets exam how many hateful ignorant bigoted things you have said in the very few posts you have made here shall we?

    "Here is why atheism...a belief and a religion in itself is a disease."

    "Mao was an atheist and he murdered many millions who practiced the belief that their is a higher spiritual power in which man and nature were created...they attack, kill and try to make white all of those that would go beyond man to explain things that are not understood."

    "some ideologies are much better suited towards peace and good will because they are not oppressive in nature. Out of all of them, Atheism is the absolute worse."

    "When people decide that you don't have the answers and they practice their belief in God...what will you do then? If history is any guide, you will make them dig their own grave and you will line them up and murder them for it. That is what every atheist that has ever come to power has always done."

    THIS WAS ALL FROM YOUR FIRST POST. not only was it all offensive but it is even worse because of how factually inaccurate it all is.

    so lets see what else you have said.

    "All of you atheist are a lot of fun to play around with."

    "In addition, just like true Atheist/Marxist form," < combining atheism with marxism is your ignorant attempt to "poison the well"

    "You Atheist murder millions of new babies every year through abortion."

    "I do not see any bright side to Atheist with the exception that if I can not do anything about abortion, then maybe you will abort yourselves out of existence."

    "Lord knows we do not need anymore little Marxist running around thinking they have all the answers to mans problems."

    "You do not have all the answers and you never will" Not only does this imply atheists said they have all the answers, but i thought the irony was hilarious.

    "Atheist can't take credit for those good moral guidelines so they try so hard to have them removed from everywhere they are found. If I had to guess, an Athesist would be all for murdering every person of faith, destroying all the history books and then taking those commandments from God and claiming them as their own. Isn't that right"

    "you can spew your hatred for God all you want in front of me and it really has no bearing on my longevity of life unless you physically try to harm me. That is something atheist are very good at by the way...forcing people through violence and fear to stop practicing their belief in God in the open and in private."

    "Your statements and the dumb wad before you about the ten commandments and how they are not moral values goes to show that an Atheist can not be trusted."

    "It must be a lonely world as an atheist because with a lack of moral judgment, no educated person would ever want anything to do with you."

    "You need to go back and read your Marxist manual. Atheism as we know it today started with Marx who was inspired by none other, Robes Pierre of the French Revolution. They called him...The Incorruptible."

    "You have proven my point again...that abortion is a thing of atheism. People that believe in life do not murder innocent people and who could be more innocent than that of an unborn child. Even the Muslim does not believe in abortion."

    "I am against abortion, but since I can not do anything about it, maybe you people will abort yourselves out of existence. One of these days your marxist buddies in power will expand your eugenics program to murder handicaps kids and senior citizens that do not fit in your Progressive Utopia."

    "I love debating your types because you always resort to some kind of ridiculous argument or attack that makes your cause look quite pathetic. Being an atheist by nature makes you oppressive and that oppression leads to atrocities. I am one to defend life against your kind. When you come, I will be waiting patiently. No fear here my friend."

    ^^^^THIS WAS TRULY DISTURBING AND WAS DIRECTED AT ME

    "You believe in man as the higher power! You believe that man has all the answers! You believe that man has all the solutions to the worlds problems. So in that belief, it is in fact classified as a religion." .....just wrong.....

    "they are no more corrupted than governments or political parties who have leaders and philosophies that are not religious. We just come to expect those entities to be corrupt so they often get a free pass."

    "If there is no moral foundation, no belief that there is something greater than yourself, then there is a free for all, no morals...just kill anyone because I can get away with it."
    ^^^^^THIS SAYS A LOT ABOUT YOU

    "it won't happen by using the tactics you have chosen in which attempts to discredit someone who is clearly superior to you in intelligence, common sense and emotional IQ. You do your atheist religion a disservice with your bogus argument. I truly love it when I can get inferiors to resort to verbal attacks. It shows how much of a weakling you really are. If I was to guess, I would say you are probably close to 30 and still live with your mommy. All you probably do is play video games and sponge off people that have worked their entire lives."

    "That is the problem with all you Marxist, when someone disagrees with you, you use baseless accusations in an attempt to damage people that do not buy into your ****."
    IM STARTING TO THINK I SHOULD MAKE ONE OF THESE OF JUST YOUR HYPOCRITICAL OR IRONIC POSTS

    "When your types gain power and control of weapons, you execute them. History clearly shows well over a hundred million murdered at the hands of atheist. You are nothing but self serving id**ts. Look at your circle of trust...you have none. That is the way of an atheist. They can trust no one because you lie constantly to yourselves about everything . You will always be looking over your shoulder."

    " Some day, some dictator will come along and you useful id**ts will follow along and be commanded to do some kind of atrocity just like the many times in the past. You will do it because your are so locked into your belief that even a shred of common sense will sink into your know it all mind and it will be the end of you.

    You lost man, your clueless like the other dude. Learn how to debate someone with some decency and perhaps the next time you can have an adult conversation. Maybe then you will learn something."

    FUNNY I HAVE CONTINUALLY TRIED HAVING A CALM DEBATE WITH YOU BUT YOU HAD TO START INSULTING THEN COMPLETELY IGNORING MY POSTS....YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE.

    "Keep up that good emotional work pal. You are a true professional at what I would term as a classic case of instability. You know what would be really cool, if you and the three other jokers I have been shredding with common sense can get together and play a little Russian roulette together. Wouldn't that be cool. I know you guys like dangerous games just by the religion you follow and the hatred you preach as a result of it. Maybe a few unborn babies would live to take your place as a result and perhaps some of those things that stemmed from Marxism and Atheism will be rectified."

    "and It may do wonders for that inferiority and childish reaction you currently suffer from."

    "You sir, are not smart enough to realize that you have been bested. It is a lonely road for you. I pity you really."

    WOW what an immature hateful person you are........

  • over the edge

    mysteryman7
    1 where did i say "there is no God"
    2 where did i say i was a Marxist?
    3 if atheism is a religion what is our holy book, where is our place of worship,who is our supernatural leader,where are our holy places?
    4 why are atheism and marxism the same?
    5 Hitler was a christian who was never excommunicated
    6 point me to a single writing by Stalin where he credits his atheism as a justification for his atrocities. he didn't kill because he didn't believe in god he saw god as competition. atheism wasn't his motivation greed and power were
    7 how do you know what my values are
    8 are you saying you are not christian?
    here is an idea answer my questions in this and other posts referencing facts. you have made many claims prove them

  • robertallen1

    Thank you. If he persists, perhaps this should be reported.

  • robertallen1

    And that's putting it mildly. I think he's sick.

  • robertallen1

    You know something. I don't lie, cheat, steal, deceive or kill and it's not from a belief in your penny version of a god--and I don't consider myself unique in this respect. I don't do these things because I am better than you.

  • robertallen1

    First of all, mo"on, as I've told you, my name is Robert and I don't need to hide behind a silly pseudonym.

    Second, after all your fustian beginning with your first post, you have the gall to complain of lack of respect? Bested? By whom? By someone who's not smart enough to realize how st*pid he is--cf Epicurus' compendium of quotes from your posts.

    I loathe you, really.

  • robertallen1

    And typical of his genus (or clades) he has not answered one question or responded to one issue directly. Perhaps he's autistic, but one way or the other, he obviously needs help of the more secular kind.

  • Achems_Razor

    Reported only to authorities if it is a "credible threat", like uttering a threat against someones life, or violence, stuff like that. Have to follow the "comment policy"

    But if he persists with other types of threats I will ban him. Already warned him.

  • over the edge

    robertallen1
    the thing that makes me shake my head is if i stumbled across this poster 4-5 years ago i would have dismissed it as a troll and never responded. but now this type of argument is more the norm. there was a time when many of the pro religion posters tried to show evidence for their beliefs (right or wrong) and the rational ones realized they cannot prove their beliefs so they stopped trying and those who tended to be irrational either got angry and left or resorted to the types of arguments we see here. i personally blame those who have been here longer than i (kidding)- Achems,Epic, Vlatko ,Randy (not sure if you remember him he could make a sailor blush) amongst others and this type of argument is what we are left with. thanks guys. i never thought i would say this but the ID supporters at least try to bring something that resembles evidence even if it is quote mined,lies or misinterpretations.

    @Achems speaking of Randy. batman could certainly take spiderman lol sorry i will stop the off topic now

  • robertallen1

    O.K. Thank you.

  • robertallen1

    I guess Randy was before my time. Anyway, thanks.

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    mysteryman7 is a troll.

    "See, you are wrong, Atheism is a belief system. It is a belief that man has all the answers and understanding. "

    ^ That should be your signal to ignore his rousing. lol

  • robertallen1

    Maybe he'll make another veiled threat and be banned from posting. Then I won't need to ignore him--and neither will anybody else.

  • Betty Phillips

    Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'll pray for the one who made this. He must be having a difficult time.

    I am not atheist, but I don't think atheism can be really called a belief system like others said.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    why do you say he must be having a difficult time?

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    Betty, I can see that you are trying to give your opinion with respect. So I give you some credit there...

    But you should be careful how you word your comments. Just because someone doesn't agree with your beliefs, doesn't mean they are living life full of difficulty and strife. Some (many) people can take great offense to that comment, and rightly so.

    If you really care about "the one who made this" why not do something for him/her to show you care? Send him a note, send him a gift, send him food or money or make him a quilt. Praying for someone only makes YOU feel better. Kind of ironic... acting out a selfish endeavor when you're savior preaches selflessness.

  • Achems_Razor

    @Betty Phillips:

    I see that you are a Mormon, because you mentioned Mormanism on some religious docs on TDF, what is your agenda Pray tell?

  • Betty Phillips

    Okay. I think that's a good idea. I learned not to push my ideas on others so besides praying in private I suppose a letter or e-letter perhaps encouraging him to follow his heart wherever it takes him will do.

  • mysteryman7

    Robby, that is another tactic that fits the agenda of a Marxist...shut down free speech. To all you others that read this, the religion Atheism may have been around or established as long as other religions, but they have never been able to form any foothold until the Marxism in which you all fall around. Calling me an abomination is in fact HATE speech by the way. The person that wrote phrase towards me is saying that he detest or hates those people of faith. To detest is to hate and to hate is to embrace evil...period! Proving my point again. While I support you your right to call me whatever you feel is necessary to soothe your growing anger of being bested, it fits into the Marxist philosophy of hate everything and anything that does not agree with you and attempt to silence them one way or another. Atheism and the elimination of Free Speech are the two foundational points that make up Marxism. Your claim...there is no god so shut up...and if you don't, we will shut you up. Isn't that what you were trying to do Robby...shut me up by turning me into a moderator? You know, I would never do that to you. In fact, I am thankful that atheist are exposing themselves for who they are and what they stand for. Your free speech will always be protected by me...even if you want to openly threaten me. I really do not care.

    Here is another point that needs to be readdressed. Man is the only species on earth that exterminates itself through abortion. Atheism is the sole backers of and pushers of abortion. No other religion...or belief system supports it.

    For all of you that think you are clever enough to change definitions of terms to suite your argument. Here are a couple that definitively makes your argument bogus. Look them up yourselves

    "Belief- is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true."

    "Faith -is confidence or trust in a person or entity. Also defined as firm belief in something for which there is no proof"

    By this definition, your atheism is a belief system as well as a system of faith. It is so by the fact that your belief is in man and your faith that there is no god...in which you can not prove. These two things together make up religion. Your atheism is in fact a religion and it really does not matter how you little people try to spin it. Thus...the truth be known.

    One last note, I don't make threats. Making a suggestion does not constitute a threat. Only a Marxist and devout atheist would try to redefine that term threat to better serve their needs. You all missed the point behind that suggestion anyway...which does not surprise me. You all have proven my point to the deceit that atheism is.

    I wish, as I had started with my comments, that you people would have an honest and decent debate, but your resorted to name calling and childish behavior. I then had to school you and treat you all as you act...especially you Robby. You are the biggest child of them all. You are a person that will never learn from your mistakes. Even now, I can sense the hatred you have for me as you read this. Good luck with that hatred pal.

    It is true...I never will change any of your minds. Not trying to anyway. It all started as an opposing view and you all wanted to shut that down. You know what, it is really a win win situation for me. Even if your religion is right and the belief that there is no god, then in my end days there will be nothing to worry about anyway. Since I am a person of devout faith and decency to decent people and nature, I am covered both ways.

  • over the edge

    mysteryman7
    you stated ""Belief- is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true." i as an atheist do not believe in a god or gods. what is my premise? what is my proposition? how is a lack of belief a belief? is not playing baseball a sport by your definition? also you stated "Faith -is confidence or trust in a person or entity. Also defined as firm belief in something for which there is no proof"what person or entity am i putting my trust in as an atheist? as i stated atheism is a lack of belief. so what is "belief in something for which there is no proof? that i hold? again myself and others have asked you questions please try to answer them.

  • robertallen1

    If he can't get my name correct, you certainly can't expect him to be able to answer your questions.

  • over the edge

    robertallen1
    i agree. but by purposely getting your name wrong does show that he is more interested in an emotionally charged statements then he is in factual ones.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    trollololololol

  • Teddy Mcd

    Are you young and therefore have a bit to learn?- if so I'll let it pass as rites of passage. If you are older, try a little bit more 'cause your thoughts are fractured - even me a blazing heart says this -"tho' I can follow your delivery on a thought by thought footing I lose you in your lack of nexus." My best guess is that you should carry on - you have a good mind trying to find a home. Intellectualism is not difficult because it is coded in... whereas art...

  • mysteryman7

    Robby, you asked me this question in your comment, I will do my best to answer this and not insult you intentionally.

    "What if the fetus (and that's all it is) is a product of rape, should the woman undergo the penalty of being forced to have it?"

    First off, would if you were the fetus? If your mother was raped and you found out that you were the child of that rape later in life, shouldn't you just go and kill yourself? Could you really look at yourself...now that you are in this world, as being a punishment to your mother because your biological dirt bag dad raped her? Of course no! Who in the world would blame their mother for letting them live? Just because you may be a child of rape, does not mean that you will be born into this world where people will not and do not love you.

    Second, you are justifying the killing of unborn children, as that is what a fetus is until it is born, because of very tiny reason for abortions in the first place. The vast majority of abortions in the US happen not because some woman was raped, but because some persons wanted to have sex...pleasure and not be responsible for the consequences of life. That is the reality and the truth.

    Is a fetus/baby an IT as you referred. Are you an IT? No, you are a human being and so are fetus that grow to be babies, to boys to men to old men. When that mighty sperm had to fight its way past all the other sperms and then somehow overcome the outer protection of a woman's egg...something happened...life. It is that process which creates the thing you say you most believe in...man. Someone, some point in time decided since they had the manly power to do so, that they would decide when an IT became a HE or SHE. Somewhere along the line a man or men decided a baby was going to be an IT before it is a human. In doing so, they justified the immoral process of killing IT...rather than killing a human. This is man...the one that you claim has all the answers.

    You also said this.

    "Better 1,000,000 abortions than one unwanted child--and it is so nice that you and others of your ilk can't do anything about it."

    Out of curiosity, there are some unwanted children out there for sure, how many have you taken into your home? If I guessed NONE..and NEVER, would I be right?

    How is it you would prefer to murder 1 million ITs...some of them potentially great like Tesla or Einstein, because you have made it up in your mind that they will be unwanted? Just because you do not, nor will you probably ever, know true love for another, does not mean that there are not other people out there that do not.

    Do you really want the facts? Of course you do, you are a fact guy I can tell; Many Americans have to go through China, Singapore, Vietnam...and other places to adopt a baby and the waiting list is so long, some times they wait years to get a child and spend thousands and thousands of dollars to make it happen. There are plenty of people out there that want babies, can't have them naturally and yet are willing to spend thousands to take a child and care for them, love them and teach them to be productive, good, caring people in society. I just happen to know that Humans are the only species on earth that justifies the extermination of himself. No other species on the planet does that. You do not have to believe in God to know that the act of killing your own species off is not natural. People justify it because we think...too much and we think we have all the answers.

    Rock Solid means no yielding because you have all the facts, all the trends, all the angles...all of it. To be rock solid means you have answered everything to yourself honestly. Does anyone really have any of that? If you can not definitively answer every question, then there is error. I do not have the answers...never will. What I have in my favor to support my argument is that you don't have all the answers either. I do not expect you to. In that aspect, you can never, ever let me down. That is why I do not put my faith in men, but in God! When people like you fail and you will fail like all men fail, God is there to pick you up if your intentions are what they should be. That is the challenge...knowing your intentions.

  • mysteryman7

    Epicurus, How about an honest debate without the personal attacks. I won't nor do I need to go into my credentials nor my age, but just know that I have been places and I am quite old enough to know the difference between intellectuals and hopeless fools. You are somewhere in between the two. Take that as neither a compliment or an insult.

    You asked me these questions and I will answer them without calling you a name or going on an offensive like I did with Robert who attacked me first by throwing insults at me with baseless arguements. I will debate anyone anywhere and be respectful as long as it remains that way. There is always a deeper meaning and sometimes we as people jump to conclusions before we understand it. That is everyone that has the ability to think without exception. Here are a couple of your questions you asked me. If you are really interested what I think, then respect it for what it is. As the author of this documentary...he said it took him 30 years to come up with his belief. I respect it for what it is even if I do not agree or even like it. Take this lesson, respect carries people much farther. Rob

    "why is sperm not life? why is sperm as soon as it connects with an egg now suddenly special?"

    Sperm is not life, because by itself it simply dies when it is isolated by itself. That is the short answer. Perhaps my question in response to that is, "why have a man in the picture at all when a woman can be artificially inseminated?" We can emulate, clone, and map DNA, but that does not explain why it was needed before DOLLY the cloned sheep, that we needed a man and a woman to create life. At least as far as recorded history goes, man and woman have been creating life far more efficiently than cloning or artificial insemination. I would not even argue that those things do not contribute to some goodness, but did it ever occur to you or anyone else, that there were a lot of mistakes...real abominations, that have resulting in mans attempt to artificially create life? That begs to ask, if nature does it so well already without science, then why does science keep trying to improve it?

    Certainly man has the ability to know knowledge, but does that really mean that man understands what that knowledge means and the consequences of it? The truthful answer is no and in every instance of the breakthroughs of science there have been harsh consequences. If you are really paying attention in the world today, Japan is once again paying the consequence of man and mans attempt to manipulate things in an unnatural way. I am talking about the radiation that is not being reported in the news. Not only have I been to that country and many others, but there are people there that are measuring the RADS and it is roughly 10 to 20 times the lethal limits. There are already effects that are starting to materialize not only in Japan, but on the West Coast of America. In the coming years, there will be much more fallout and it will not be hard to ignore. This is not a result of an earthquake which knocks down buildings. This is the result of man forcing things that happen in nature...mainly on the Sun...like splitting atoms and their inability to contain it. It is not God that does these things...it is men. A person can recover from an earthquake , but it takes thousands of years to recover from a nuclear disaster. The one that happened in Japan is far worse than what happened in Chernobyl. I personally think it is going to be far worse than that of the intentional bombings of the hydrogen bombs by the Americans during the second world war at Nagasaki and Hiroshima. If you know who Oppenheimer is, he...in his own words regrets his discovery and invention of the bomb. If you know who Nicola Tesla is, he had his regrets about the discoveries he made in radio frequency which can theoretically destroy the planet. These men...realized after the fact of their great...and they are great, discoveries and how the lack of understanding and sometimes the intentional misuse of technology for the gain of power, is more detrimental to the betterment of mankind than their discovery and their hopes for it.

    Albert Einstein said this once. "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." As an engineer and scientist of many years, I can not agree more.

    Einstein also said this, "I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details."

    For me personally, I would like to know the same. I am a person of faith...no doubt, but It was not always like that, it came when I realized that man continually lets his brother and sister down. If there is one thing you can count on, is that someone will always let you down.

    To answer the second question you had is... It is important when the sperm and the egg come together simply because if they did not...there would be no life...at least as far as mammals go. We are not chickens or single cell organisms. We are man...something more special than any other land creature on earth. While ideas of man are often good intentioned, implementation of those ideas and the consequence are often not. Since good intentions can be corrupted, then sometimes diving into things like genetically engineering plants in which natural organic plants become corrupted and no long grow is a bad thing. It is man messing with and attempting to do what? That is the question. My answer to myself...because I have had my doubts over many years is this...how could man do the same thing for so many years and in the age of America, come up with things like vaccinations, cell phones, ac current, the atom bomb...H1N1. Thousands of years...and no explanation for the lack of knowledge before that. It is much deeper than that...but it lacks all explanation.

    A scientist, an engineer, psychologist look at all the facts and they never stop filling in the blanks because the facts are infinite. It is just that human nature does not change like nature. Ideologies and beliefs change as a person becomes wise and gains understanding. That is the way life works. It is a blessing to get old...because you understand things then. I do not really need to defend my own wisdom or my credentials because people that know...understand where I have been and what it has taken me to be here today.

    The fact that I am writing this on this blog is an accident simply because I watched the documentary on a whim. It was not that I even disagreed with some of the material in it. There are some legitimate points. Because of the places that I have been, the things that I have witnessed personally and my knowledge and understanding of history, I decided to post a suggestion to point out the crimes and unjust nature of things that have occurred as a result of ideologies that base the philosophy solely behind atheism and consequently, the suppression of free speech. These are points that any decent human being should be concerned about no matter what ideology or belief they belong to. It is not hard for me to make up my mind on who not to follow when people are being shut down by bullets or government regulation because of their belief as long as that belief does not stop a person...even a fetus from becoming a child. Imagine, if your mother had decided to abort you. Perhaps...if you really think about it, maybe you are glad that she did not. What a terrible thought it would be if your mother came up to you and said...son/daughter, I was having hot sex with three dudes and one of them knocked me up. I went to the doctor and he was about to insert that needle into my uterus and puncture your little brain. I am so glad I did not go through with that because look at you, an pediatrician that cares for children. My, how things seem to work out.

    A lot of great minds, great musicians, artist, engineers, thinkers, scientist...you name it, have been lost because someone simply wanted to have sex and found a cheap and easy way out of not taking responsibility for the risk involved with that act.

  • mysteryman7

    myopic crank..Robby, I must admit, I truly to like that phrase and the insult it implies even if it does not apply to me personally. I will have to remember that one.

  • mysteryman7

    come on Razor...do your really think I have been bettered? That is where you fall totally short. Do you honestly think I walk away from this screen thinking...oh, I was beat by atheist bloggers? I will let you on a little secret, I had my doubts at one time...just like you. I am were I am now for a reason. I have no idea where you are, who you are and where you have been. Do you know the real beauty of life? It is knowing that you never know the shoes of someone else. It kind of makes you wonder how tough someone really is, not just physically, but spiritually as well.

  • mysteryman7

    Epicurus, do you really think that anything I say is going to do damage to my God? Considering that my belief is that God made all things that man tries to re-create and fails at every attempt, I am just a peon in the scheme of things. The only thing I can do is screw up the creations that God allows through nature by trying to manipulate them in ways that are unhealthy and unnatural. If you really hate my God and you want to do harm to Him, do things that are unnatural like exterminating your own species as if they were cockroaches. No other species kills itself off. Not even cockroaches.

    As far as insults, I was insulted first and repeatedly from the beginning. All anyone has to do is go back and look at the very first post. I have kept them all in a journal with everything I write. That is what writers do.

  • mysteryman7

    Robby, you said this,

    "Perhaps he's autistic, but one way or the other, he obviously needs help of the more secular kind."

    What are you implying here, that autistic people should be Euthanized...in a secular kind of way? There is a term for that and it is called Eugenics. You know what that is don't you? You also know where and who it comes from I am sure. Yes...I am sure you do.

    Well, I do appreciate that complement of what autism carries with most people that have the functioning type of it...that they are extremely intelligent. You see, I was born before the term was originated officially by a man and government so I can't be that. It is true that I carry the credentials and the wisdom of a very intelligent and most importantly, thoughtful person, I can reason and deal with forces outside of a narrow scope unlike some Autistic people. You may be able to call me a highly functioning rocket scientist...well, no, but a man of science almost certainly...with credits.

    I know you Robby, I have faced you many times in the past, you are not a good person and the spirit that lives in you is of the utmost evil. Every comment you make surrounds your true intent. Anyone with half a brain can go back to the beginning of my words, as they should, and read everything in context. If they do, they will see you for who and what your are. Your efforts are in vain. Because you have some knowledge of big words, some will follow you, but in the end, you lose. You pretend to be somebody, but you are really just some soulless creature lurking. Anyone that really grasp the depth of the evil things you have said and apply that to themselves will no that it goes way beyond any discussion about whether there is a god or not a god.

  • mysteryman7

    Robby, what is the definition of a veiled threat anyway? Does that mean hidden? Why would anyone hide a threat anyway? What good does it do to threaten someone and then hide it? It makes no sense at all.

    Robby, why do you misconstrue making a point with making a threat? The term threat has distinct definition and in no point in any of my writings was that definition even remotely come upon.

  • mysteryman7

    I will answer for Betty

    It is because the man who made the doco claims he was a Christian for 30 years. Was it really just a matter of waking up one day and deciding, or was there a struggle with that decision to go forth and make a documentary about it and his new belief? It seems pretty obvious that something had to happen to shake that many years of faith

    People struggle with their faith all the time...including Betty. It is why she is here. It is why she watched the doco and even signed up to make a comment. She has or had doubts, just like I do and just like any other person does. I do not believe anyone that would claim that they do not question the existence of God and says that there has never been a time in their life where they have not believed.

  • mysteryman7

    Betty, you are a sheep dog among wolves.

    May God Bless you and follow you, protect you and continue with you all the days forward.

  • mysteryman7

    you answered your own question. The words "belief" and
    "faith" have definitions that are universally agreed upon. You are claiming that Atheism is nothing...a non belief. There can be no such thing because to believe that something does not exist is still a belief. To believe that something that you can not prove is still considered faith. You can not prove that God does not exist becasue you can not answer all the questions...especially the the one that pertains to the fundamental question why? Together the definition of belief an faith make up religion. There is really no other way to spin it. it is what it is. You all should be OK with it. It is what you believe. There that word is again...what you believe and you have faith that what you believe is true...faith again, but you can not prove it. That my friend is religion. It does not matter to me if you hate me for pointing it out. I did not make the definitions up and the way things are communicated through men. You can't have it both ways and claim that a Christian goes on faith that God exist...and not prove it...call it faith, and have an atheist claim that opposite and still not prove it and say it is something different than faith. It just does not stand up to argument. Just come out admit that atheism is in fact a belief system of unproven faith because that is what it is.

  • mysteryman7

    You are half right. I did do intentionally call Robby by his childish name on purpose, but I am a man that is deeply committed to as much fact as I can know. What I do not know I leave to faith. I have been places, but I am not really here to talk about me.

  • mysteryman7

    Yes, a good mind does need a good stable body. A body and a mind should know geography, north, south, east and west, so when it goes to these places and finds not what it is looking for or anticipated, it can return to a place it remembers as secure and safe and take note of the lessons that brought him round circle.

  • over the edge

    mysteryman7
    ok i will try this one more time. i do not and have not claimed god doesn't exist. i have read the bible and personally do not see the story as true. it is not a belief it is a lack of belief. i do not believe in Santa is that a religion? or Bigfoot or leprechauns is everything i don't think is true a religion? and speaking of proof the burden of proof lies with the person making the positive claim. so here is your chance. no word games just the actual proof. do you have any? again i asked many questions about claims made by you just so i know do you plan on answering them?

  • over the edge

    Epicurus or achems
    why do i get the feeling this mysteryman? has posted under a different name? i thought that almost since the beginning. nut now i am pretty sure seeing as he called Achems just "razor". weak i know but add that to the fact he said to robertallen "I know you Robby, I have faced you many times in the past" seems pretty much a sure thing. i think it is dishonest to use multiple names and if you could help me out here it would be appreciated

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @over the edge,

    Even if he was here before, now he is using different IP address and different email address.

    But, for sure he's a troll. A good one. He is not here to politely discuss the philosophical questions of faith and atheism.

    He is here to nitpick with the commenters on a personal level, as if they're the ENEMY. Trying to provoke an anger, emotional response etc.

    Remember, No.1 rule to combat trolls: DNFTT - DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS.

  • over the edge

    Vlatko
    thanks. i shouldn't need the reminder but obviously i did. and you are right will sit the rest of this one out.

  • Achems_Razor

    As Vlatko says he is a good troll, must of went to trolling school, we have even had some 13 year olds that duped us religee busters, the TDF 4, lol.

    The ones that we blew out of here have different IP addy's, so he probably is not a reincarnation.

  • Guest

    I must say i accept and if not believe a lot of what you write in the last 12 comments...
    You are obviously not 13yrs old.
    You are not the first to post your belief in God and have an army come shooting at you, then you responds accordingly and then the battle gets ugly, and then you make an effort to smooth the ground.
    I have seen it many times (may be you tried it before ...who care, it's allowed)
    I am not a religious God believer, i believe God is to become, only has been talked about for eons. God has always been the infinite potential of our mind (sort of like we are pregnant of it), for God to be is to be as the true union of all minds, if ever birth is to be.
    In my world, this world only exist because we say it does, we are taught from second 1 it does anbd that is repeated until we go with it.
    Now who can argue with this...as you would need to have the conciousness of a litlle tiny tiny baby to do so.
    az

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    how does that signify that he is having a hard time?

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    things you are saying are damaging the view some people might have of god.

    "If you really hate my God and you want to do harm to Him, do things that are unnatural like exterminating your own species as if they were cockroaches. No other species kills itself off. Not even cockroaches."

    ????

    "As far as insults, I was insulted first and repeatedly from the beginning. All anyone has to do is go back and look at the very first post. I have kept them all in a journal with everything I write. That is what writers do."

    i have gone back and i have seen the way you were speaking and you were intentionally looking to get into something like this. i have already shown your posts for what they are. you dont need to keep it in a journal. its here for everyone to see.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    "Sperm is not life, because by itself it simply dies when it is isolated by itself. That is the short answer."

    sperm in an egg left alone wont become human either.

    "but did it ever occur to you or anyone else, that there were a lot of mistakes...real abominations, that have resulting in mans attempt to artificially create life? "

    mistakes yes. abominations, i think that word is loaded.

    "We are not chickens or single cell organisms. We are man...something more special than any other land creature on earth."

    why? you seem to be making that value judgement after placing some subjective value on a quality humans have. seems arbitrary to me.

    whether abortion is legal or not people will still do it. look at what was happening to women before it was legal or in countries where it is illegal.

    sometimes regulating something is a better option.

  • explorerguy

    And he's trying to dissuade Christians to remain Christians or what? Sounds like a very restricted and narrow view of a book such as the bible. It is like someone that never grew up and interprets a text without the depth not reading the big picture or the spiritual nature of its essence. Yet..that's what you get with that kind of reading of the Bible or any book religious or not. He is obviously not being able to go beyond the concrete level of things...should I blame his church? Maybe ? ultimately it is his responsibility for viewing things with those filters disguised as sophistication of thinking. It could well be the opposite because as Pasteur would put : "Truth favors the prepared mind"

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @explorerguy,

    Sounds like a very restricted and narrow view of a book such as the bible

    And which kind of view the Bible deserves?

    A book that almost half is not written by those who claim to have written it. Half of the New Testament is actually forged.

    A book that is edited countless of times because of political and mass repression reasons.

    A book that for centuries justified slavery, murder, sexism, segregation etc, and in some societies still does.

    It is like someone that never grew up and interprets a text without the depth not reading the big picture or the spiritual nature of its essence.

    What is there to be interpreted spiritually and in depth? Sermon on the Mount perhaps? Did you interpret it right? Can you enlighten us with your in depth interpretations please?

  • robertallen1

    This is a fine statement coming from someone who is as ignorant of the history of the bible as the times in which it was written. In other words, you lack the basic tools to discuss "its essence."

    Before you can treat what you term the "spiritual nature" you must prove that such an entity exists and this you cannot do. So the concrete is really all that matters.

    In sum, considering your lack of education, you have your nerve telling anyone how to interpret the bible.

  • robertallen1

    Speaking of forged, have you read the book of the same name by Bart Ehrman? If not, it's well worth the time.

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    amen.

  • mysteryman7

    I look at the bible in the the context of history. Take the book of Daniel for instance. There is little doubt among scholars that he existed. Is what he wrote inspired by God...or just his observations of the kings that he advised? If you know the history of Cyrus, Nebuchadnezzar, Darius, and the other kings mentioned over a 40 year span, you will see that archeological finds have confirmed the stories.

    No one denies that Cyrus lived, Darius or even Alexander the Great. If you know the history of what they did, you will see that Daniel is simply saying that what he is witnessing will be repeated again in history...down the road with the exception that this time it will not be someone who is religiously tolerant like Cyrus...who was a Zoroaster or Alexander who followed the Greek Mythology. They both conquered by leaving in place practicing religions. That is why the Jews saw Cyrus as a liberator rather than a conqueror. These stories are not only said in the bible but in the scrolls concerning the conquest of Cyrus. Daniel was an adviser to kings...much like David Axlerod or Carl Rove is and were to presidents. They are behind the scenes pulling the strings.

    If you understand what Cyrus did to conquer the Babylonians...without bloodshed and you look how Alexander used the same tactics, you may see a trend in what is happening around the world today. I will give you a hint, they collapsed the kingdoms around the ports of the Mediterranean. They controlled the Nile Rivers...which originate in Uganda and Ethiopia. Control the water and you control the area. Control the ports and the entrances in which commerce flows and you control everything. Even though I do in fact believe in the bible, I first look at what as written as a man, what is the strategy behind it. Remember...just like in modern times with Hitler, being an adviser to him or any other king, you have to put things in context that makes him want to believe that he comes to his own conclusions. Doing it anyway different gets you killed quickly. In my humble opinion, that is why the bible is written in such a coded way. It is really meant to provoke deep thought like anything of a philosophical nature. I have read passages many, many times...single lines of it, looking for verification in history as well as tactical maneuvers that match what we know today to be brilliant strategy in warfare.

    I can not, nor am I out to convince anyone that the bible is true. For me, as a historian and a military tactician that has been to some of the most dreadful places on earth, I look at what makes sense to me as a man, as if it was me fighting to win a war, be it a war between freedom and slavery or good and evil. All that unanswered stuff...like intuition, having a feeling about something before it happens, being on the same wavelength, love, hate...all of those emotions. There is so much to the puzzle, we as men can only hope to emulate it through digits of zero and one. As crisp as the high def picture is because men can make those pixels smaller and smaller, it still does not come close to the real analog wavelength of reality.

    I have not read all of your post over the edge because I do not want to be let down if I find insults. Good thoughtful questions deserve good thoughtful answers. They may not always be correct, but if they are sincere, then they are worth listening to.

    If you ever decide to read the bible, look at it on a mans point of view and historical context first. There is certainly a reason for everything including your life and this conversation. It is always about growing mentally and spiritually.

  • mysteryman7

    Not true

  • mysteryman7

    Vlatko, I am assuming a troll is someone that just goes and surfs the web for things to cause trouble. Truth be known, I watched the documentary because I was curious on what it took for someone to lose their faith after so many years of belief. I personally saw a lot of good points on how that could happen, but I also saw a lot of missing facts about the other side...the no faith part. I made some suggestions, not to start a debate, but simply to make a conscious participant, take note. I had no idea that I would get responses that I did...but I did. Since I like an honest, intellectual and cool headed debate, I will have that with you or anyone willing. I think anything is misguided when it is on the terms of being only one sided....especially when it comes to man. That is my justification for my comments.

    There is a reason man is feared by every creature on earth. For me personally, that is why I put my own faith higher than man because it is always a let down in the end when man does things like cut the fins off Great White Sharks to make soup and throws the rest back or kills all the buffalo nearly making them extinct because they want to starve the natives. You take your pick, there are many to chose from. Troll...hardly not. It is an honest debate. Does man really have the best intentions for mankind? History says no, that is whey people believe in God. They see the horrors of man and deep down everyone knows it, but is afraid to admit that they may not be completely in charge of their own fate.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @mysteryman7,

    Okay if you say so. Just stick to the comment policy.

  • mysteryman7

    Azilda, you are a good person, I can tell. Acceptance of anything is always your choice and I would not have it any other way. If someone just insisted showing only one side of a coin, you would never see the other side and you would be left wondering what the other side looked like. When you see it, you can decide if the picture on one side is brighter and more vibrant than the other. I can not make that decision for you but if all the details of both sides are not shown, then how can people make the best judgement that better suits a happy and fulfilled life? I would no longer assume hiding the terrible things that is done in the name of religion than that in which is done in the name of political ideologies that are indicative to no religion. I am not trying to smooth things over with people that have decided they will damage me and my integrity.

    There is a thing called the Monkey Dance. It is when a person says something that an influential instigator in a crowd does not like, they stir that crowd up to a point where all logic and reason go out the window. They attack and the persons being attacked either go on defense or offense. I choose not to defend myself, but to go on the offense and point out the illogical verbiage of those people that try to damage my integrity. I will point those people out first and foremost every time and then look to restore sanity to a conversation or a situation. When that happens...everyone benefits and people learn. That is what we are here for...to learn and grow from day one. Like I tell my kids, the older you get, the bigger your brain is...not with knowledge, but with understanding and wisdom.

    Do you know who Steven Hawking is? He is an Atheist and a godless man, yet one of the few brilliant men of our time. There are many men that do not believe in God and they have their reasons.

    Very recently, there is strong evidence to suggest that a thing known as the Higgs Particle does exist. Hawkins, in an interview on BBC admits that he was wrong. You see, if true, the Higgs Particle...also known as The God Particle, proves that there was something that came before the Big Bang Theory...that the theory was wrong...way wrong. What some modern scientist have previously thought...is wrong. What does this mean to me and Hawkings...that whatever it is we think is the truth...can turn out to be wrong even if you are as smart as he is. It may well turn out that the Higgs Particle has not been found. A short time and we will know for sure.

    You may be right...a tiny baby may be more aware of reality than a grown human. After all, like someone on this blog said to me when they were defending abortion, a baby or fetus does not have developed nerve cells so how can they feel pain. Maybe it is not pain...but fear that makes a baby cry when they are born. If you think about it, a baby just left the warm, nutritious and secure place of the womb into a cold and mostly uncaring world.

  • mysteryman7

    Yes...stick to the comment policy. That should be the same for everyone across the board I would think.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @mysteryman7,

    ...if true, the Higgs Particle...also known as The God Particle, proves that there was something that came before the Big Bang Theory...that the theory was wrong...way wrong.

    You really don't know what are you talking about, do you? Higgs proves the Standard Model. It doesn't disprove the Big bang. Stick to what you know better. The Bible maybe... if you read the whole thing of course.

    Now, stick to the documentary. Tell us how it was. Did you even watch it? Or you just trolling around?

  • robertallen1

    I sense the frustration from reading the comments of someone who hasn't the faintest concept of a subject to which you've devoted a good deal of time and effort--and no, he doesn't know the Bible either.

    Question: Is the Higgs particle a single particle or a combination of elements?

  • Achems_Razor

    If you are so interested in "the Higgs Boson", watch and then share your wisdom on the "what is the Higgs boson?" doc. And then maybe you will get your facts straight. Otherwise you are wasting pixel space.

  • robertallen1

    Thanks for the link. Hopefully, the documentary will help answer my question to you. If not, I'll ask the question again, perhaps in a more knowledgable form.

  • robertallen1

    Vlatko:

    I realize that I told you I would watch this, but the timer really distracts me, so I must give it up. However, I notice a number of documentaries on Higgs Boson on You Tube, so I'll try there. Thanks anyways.

    Robert

  • wayn0

    Everything is about control and power even religion. To be religious I must work toward or exude a particular conduct to give glory to my god. That means control over my habits and behaviours to achieve particular outcomes thus being good. If I tell you an idea and convince you of it I have control over your mind and thoughts that gives me power. If I go to work and do a job I need to have control of my environment and my thought processes thus empowering me to do the job. Whatever is not in my control I say it's in gods control. People pursue what is good because it's beneficial to them. If you're a criminal and get caught you go to jail. Whatever people do they always attach the idea I did it because I'm good. There are a million reasons why someone makes one decision. For example, I go to work because: I'm selfish I want money, I want to help people, I feel like I'm forced by society, I feel like it's why god put me here, I feel like if I don't I'm a burden on society, I do it to feel a sense of personal purpose not caring about serving others just my ideal of myself. What people do is suppress the bad reasons for why they do things then simply state the good reasons why they do things knowing that there are other motives for their behaviour. This is just another way in which people like to have control of their view of the universe. We're all power hungry to tell everyone what to do. If someone imposes a system of power over someone they simply create another system of power to compensate. For example, If I fire you from your job and you have no money you might change your life philosophy to I don't need money to be happy. You see I took away your control and power and you came up with a new control of things giving you a sense of empowerment, I don't need money. If you have control over your emotions you have peace and if you have control over your environment not disturbing the peace in others then you have created peace in the world. The only way to have control or power over something without disturbing their peace is by being a servant to that power. If by reading the bible a person gets a set of precepts to live by giving them a sense of control over there lives empowering them with purpose why ruin that. All people do is chase good thoughts all day long anyway, everything is the pursuit of a good thought. But instead of chasing good thoughts all day long we should be doing good deeds. By finding peace in ourselves and creating peace in the world we have created a utopia, heaven on earth and you don't need to be religious to appreciate that.

  • explorerguy

    I am baffled by your comment. Half of the NT forged? Where did you get this from? Were you ever a committed Christian or believed or followed the bible? If you were not...I am sorry you may not really have the insider's understanding of the power to transform lives of that book, and that worldwide.
    Yes the Bible can only be understood by people who are capable of apprehending things that are just not perceived only by reason (though reason is part of it), if the only means you have to understand the world and life is demonstration than you cannot interpret the bible correctly. Actually it will not make any sense to you. You either have experienced Christiany in your heart and mind or you haven't. And if you haven't..it will remain a mystery to you. You may try to apply human logics to 'figure it out' You will get no wehre. Christianity is not a book. It is an experience between you and your Maker, based in His revelation to you as a person, in sense a mystical but not mythical experience. There is no room for negotiation here and a divine revelation is what it is...a divine revelation. The Bible is not a science compendium.
    You demonstrate ignorance about culture when you say the bible concdoned slavery. Do you actually know what Paul wrote about slavery? The Bible is so sociological compendium neither was the calling of the church to social reforms. The reform comes from above and it is spiritual in nature. If you do not know what I am talking about it is just because you are outside of it..and if you remain there I am afraid you will not know.

  • explorerguy

    Religion needs to be qualified. In Christianity religion is to be like God is: merciful and kind, long suffering, loving, gentle, just, fair. That's what being a christian is about. Many political people took hold of the name, and lacking in these virtues they compensated for it with big temples, ostentatious celebrations, sociopolitical influence and power. Running along side there were always the sincere and pious christians who hid from the "Holy" Roman empire. Those carried the bible sown inside their clothes, and lived fringe lives and never took part on that 'popular' religion. They were severely persecuted (albingenses, Hugenots in Piemont in Italy and France and many other places. They were accused of heretics and burned. Even great reformers payed with their lives. In the name of "god" they killed and did worse than non christians and pagans. Now the ignorance is so great in society and the confusion so overwhelming. People accuse christians of doing all this. Everything is discussed without going back to the real facts, ignoring the true history of christianity which by the way is not the history of the Roman church.

  • Achems_Razor

    @explorerguy:

    That is the trouble with you religee's, you never let it rest, you keep on yammering about your religion and how you think that you know what everybody else thinks, or as you say knows
    what is in other peoples hearts.

    You know nothing, that is what you know, most of us, you might as well call complete sceptics, don't give a rats A$$ about dragging on your inconsequential arguments. Show us proof! then maybe we will talk.

  • explorerguy

    aren't your being naive...??
    there is no proof for skeptics....Jesus faced this over and over and over..he did miracles...miracles happen a lot in hospitals every day..that doesn't convince a skeptic...
    When you say "you know nothing" you sound so arrogant..you talk like you know ANYthing about me..what I know , what I don't.
    I didn't say skeptics didn't know things. All I said is spiritual things are not understood simply by cold formal logics and that's there are other ways of knowing.

  • Achems_Razor

    What spiritual things are you talking about, religion, ghosts, demons, devils, something you need an exorcist for, or all the invisible 28,000,000 gods in recorded history. All in the mind nowhere else, not real!

  • robertallen1

    You know as much about the history of the bible as you know about Christianity as you know about science, which is to say nothing. Furthermore, you are conceited enough to believe that you are privy to some insider's understanding.

    Spirituality=faith=fraud. People like you disgust me.

  • robertallen1

    Come back after you've read some books on religion, history and the bible written by real scholars.

  • robertallen1

    Achem has every right to be arrogant when confronted with your ignorant jibberish, for it's the uneducated going up against the educated and as such his indignation is more than justified. At least he has learned something through study and logic, which is more than I can say for you.

    And don't try the miracle ploy. You couldn't prove it when you first brought it up a month ago and you can't prove it now--and quoting from the bible is merely circular, so don't try it.

    The "miracles happen a lot in hospitals every day" ploy which you also attempted when you first began posting didn't work then and it's not going to work now.

    Spirituality=fraud=you.

  • explorerguy

    The phrase is taken from the bible (Paul's writings) "spiritual things are discerned spiritually"...so no, I am not talking about the greek pantheon or the myriad of statutes they called God. I am talking about a real Jesus (Have you read Josephus? He lived around Jesus's times and left an extensive work) I am talking about the spiritual/moral nature that christianity brought to the world. love enough to surrender your life (Jesus), chirstian values and virtues. I am talking about spirituality as defined or advanced by the apostles and the revelation...not mystical spirituality. I am talking about the Messiah whose coming was predicted even in years (look up Daniel 7). There were many prophecies pointing out the time and manner by which the Messiah would come, what his domain is all about and what he would bring to earth and humanking. Chrstianity is a power for good. I agree with you that throughout history many supposed christians were all about power and domination. If you read the various volumes of Phillip Schaff's History of the Church or D'Augigne (not sure about spelling)..you will find plenty of new information. More recently you will find Luther, Calvin, Tyndale, John Huss, and many others, that as I mentioned payed with their lives, for wanting to bring people from a fictitious, superstitious kind of christianity to a real one. I do insist in one point: Spiritual things are not discerned merely by explaining and showing. It is experiential first, then a lot of things make sense...and a lot of other things become obsolete. Deep down it is all about love, the deep love of God, who will die to turn a man's way around, like a prodigal son who eventually returns to his father's house.

  • robertallen1

    The Christian values as you espouse them are no more than a font of self-perpetuating ignorance and supersition, not a power for good.

    As they merely harken back to the Old Testament, New Testament prophecies are a self-serving joke which is hard to believe that a grown person takes seriously, except one who is wilfully ignorant of biblical history and history in general.

    This wall of text and your two previous ones are insults to the intelligence.

  • Achems_Razor

    Josephus?? come come now, known forgery.

    I asked for proof, the onus is on you, you gave no proof all at just circular logic, does not matter from which source, that is all you religious basically have.

    You are better off to give us your view of CA (cosmological argument) which will lead nowhere also.

  • robertallen1

    Some parts of his history are certainly of questionable provenance and, quite frankly, I wouldn't trust anyone as treacherous as he, but I wouldn't call Josephus exactly a forgery.

  • Achems_Razor

    Yes, after I entered the post I thought of rescinding some, probably not all of Josephus is forgery.

  • robertallen1

    Let's just say he's unreliable and biased.

  • explorerguy

    I think I get your logics now!
    You decide what is authoritative right? LOL ....good luck,
    By the way how me how animals evolved from primitive life forms...but remember..I want THE EVIDENCE okay?

  • over the edge

    explorerguy
    what is the "moral nature that christianity brought to the world"? please state these specific morals that didn't exist before? also please explain if Christianity is the source for our morals how do you explain the slavery,genocide,incest,infanticide and so on that is not only condoned in the christian writings but sometimes demanded?

  • explorerguy

    The most phenomenological approach if you really want it is....go to several churches and interview people, read their minds, get a grip on their world view than compare and see whether they believe in the list you described. Christianity is christians not institutions.. Institutions may pose as christianity....is all the masses see any way isn't it?

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    You guys have stated the bible has known forgeries. Can you provide links to actual hard evidence of such? (without providing just links to lectures/lecturers)

    Respectfully..

  • over the edge

    Sarcastic_Drew
    i will list just one for now mark 16:9-16:20 are not in the earlier writings. the longer ending does not show up til later in the second century. i know you asked not to include links (and i won't) but i suggest you watch or read up explanations by Bart Ehrman

  • robertallen1

    Read "Forged" by Bart Ehrman.

  • robertallen1

    And Ehrman goes into great detail about this.

  • Kateye70

    "I am talking about the spiritual/moral nature that christianity brought to the world."

    Have you read any of the teachings of the Buddha? He brought similar ascetic teachings to the world.

    He lived several centuries earlier and not that far from Palestine--there were regular trade routes from India going both east and west. Palestine itself is a trade route center, and ideas flow along such routes.

    There's nothing particularly new or special about christian spirituality or morality.

  • Kateye70

    Equally respectfully...

    The evidence for forgeries, additions, deletions, rewordings, etc., is readily available in many places, and provided by reputable biblical scholars who share their findings with the rest of us, such as Bart Ehrman, as mentioned by over the edge. There are whole institutes devoted to biblical studies, run by theologians.

    If you do the research for yourself, you could pursue the evidence that is most of value to you. I believe the popular works are heavily referenced, so you would be able to see why a particular scholar drew whatever conclusions he or she did.

  • Achems_Razor

    No! I do not have to show you anything, you are the one that is making the claims!... Prove your claims!

  • robertallen1

    You want to know how animals evolved from primitive life forms and you demand evidence of this? Try reading some real books on biology--and they don't have to be textbooks--and not that greasy creationist crap.

  • http://twitter.com/raggadellic Raghavendra P S

    you people HAVE TO know this : The intro background music are Hindu Gods Chants. I am an Indian and a Theist. Hence, the maker of this video has started the video from believing in God. Hahaha... This is Epic

  • robertallen1

    In other words, because the video started with Hindu chants, its maker must be a theist. Didn't they teach you about non sequiturs in school?

  • Teddy Mcd

    The question that arises off the top of my head is - Did the maker of this video know that the music from the start of this vid was in fact Hindu related or was it serendipity - or as another poster said, simply a non sequitur? Me? I don't know. And I ain't gonna look it up - but you should.

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    that is the most ignorant thing I've ever read LOLLLLLL. I listen to Cat Stevens. That doesn't make me a Muslim convert or a traitor to my country... why do i even have to explain this.. ugh *tries so hard not to insult on personal level*

  • Efritt

    Just the opening is really dumb.
    Criticizing Christianity for having so many versions while directing your attack to some church's interpretations. If anything this is an attack against the church.
    Also against taking any holy book literally.

    I don't believe in "god" but this documentary is stupid, appealing to "atheists" who think they are better/smarter than others.

  • RikG01

    "Having an insiders perspective of Christianity, I use my skills as a producer to stir the pot of debate and, hopefully, make it uncomfortable for anyone to be a mere spectator in the arena of ideas."

    - The Author

    I'd say theThinker has done the job, then, eh? I( actually think the opening is really clever. I don't where you got the idea that it was attacking churches, the opening is listing bible translations, making a point that "God's" attempt to enlighten the world was a bit shoddy for a supposedly all powerful, omnipotent superbeing. And I see the point. I mean if god is everywhere, why not appear to everyone or turn up in a more useful location or speak in all languages?

    It's a bit of a naff God that only does miracles where there's only a few people, if any, to witness them, or needs humans to do the translation, when it speaks and even then, God's "word" is so vague that thousands of interpretations are possible, so many that some people read words of peace while others find Calling and excuse for hate, homophobia, genocide, slavery and so on.

    It's a pretty good series, given that the author is trying to raise questions and spark debate and the questions are aimed at everyone.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    wait....we arent?

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    Not better, just *smarter* ^^

  • TheNotSoMighty

    Oh come on. Of course, there are (notice: not "they are") smarter people! And atheists these days generally (!) tend to have a much more open mind towards new knowledge and a wider outlook on life. We might be born equal in rights, but we are clearly not born equal in intellectual capabilities. And whereas some things are biologically predetermined, others we CHOOSE for ourselves, and some of those choices can be very limiting in their nature. Religion is one of those limitations, preventing a person to strive for more, satisfying the hunger for digging deeper, because there is no need to, all the "answers" are there in one book. And of course, if it's written there then it must be true. But if people stop QUESTIONING, progress shall halt and we will get nowhere.
    And what is so wrong with verbally (!!!) attacking the concept of the church? Are we not free to speak our mind AND provide actual ARGUMENTS that support that point of view? That very same church didn't have anything against KILLING people just a few centuries back, it had nothing against making people who thought differently SUFFER. That church that divided and NEVER united. Nowadays, there are still scandals surrounding highly religious people who see nothing wrong in beating up a person just because s/he is homosexual, "Jesus said so!". Is that a "smart" thing to do? Do you see atheists or hear about atheists burning churches and torturing priests just because they believe in God? I shall say one thing - LOL.

  • Metacrock

    This is catering to bigotry. People who know nothing bout history make vast generalizations like "That very same church didn't have anything against KILLING people just a few centuries back." Atheistic communists killed one hundred million people not even a century ago. Atheist are stupid. they are not open to new ideas they are in horror of new ideas. The only thing they ca appreciate is worship of scinece. They don't know much about that. I've seen atheist who called Karl Popper a "creationist fundamentalist" and dismiss him because "he's just a philosopher." atheism has bred a totalitarian movement that seeks to dominate cutler through bulling religious people and fuming hatred.

  • robertallen1

    So you're saying that unless a person believes in a being whose existence cannot be proved and of whom he knows nothing (and nobody else does either) and of whom everyone has a different idea and defends his idea, in some cases, with death and destruction, in other words, abrogates his intelligence, he's stupid. No, it's you who are stupid--and let me add, from your statements about reliance on science and the alleged decimation by "atheistic communists," ignorant. If you're one of those "religious people" who feels bullied and hated by those with the knowledge and intelligence to see through your twaddle and deception, you've simply sown what you have reaped.

  • AC

    I, for one, enjoy being an "Atheistic Communist".

  • Ny La Live

    This is a series of short animations that each try to make a point about the Christian belief system from the perspective of satire. It is executed very well. I laughed through most of it.
    The one thing that I have noticed, granted only from my exposure to atheist interviews and videos like this one, is the focus on a God that doesn't exist. I think for any Christian who truly wants to be saved, that atheism is probably the first step towards freedom, like AA is for recovering alcoholics. But, being an atheist seems like it holds its same barriers to truly being free of religious barriers if you stay in it for a long time.
    I liken it to being 8 when I found out there was no Santa Claus, and then the Easter Bunny, Tooth fairy and the whole beloved cast went from something so real to something that had I had to pass through that was like disbelief, anger and betrayal, and finally acceptance. The difference between my experience with these wonderful fictional beings of my youth, is that I didn't spend the rest of my life trying to prove that they didn't really exist. And I certainly didn't use my belief system to make sure that nobody else ever believed in them again. I distinctly remember instead, that I had now entered a level of being more of an elder (at 8) and a guardian of the secret.

    I look at religion and they myths and all of the glorious fictitious characters the same now. I just simply feel like I am now an elder.

    I still enjoy watching Charlie Brown Christmas, A Christmas Story and all the other holiday shows. I enjoyed this too. It is the child-mind of me that I can still have when I want it.

  • Anita

    That is meant to be sarcastically dramatic. Thats why the soundtrack of the Matrix

  • danny

    I loved it!!!! There is no sense is trying to have a rational, intellectual, honest or objective conversation with the religious right. The best way to show them how ridiculous their religion is is to make a satire out of their religious beliefs based on a contradictory, ethnocentric, genocidal bible

  • fender24

    Why is religion ridiculous?

    And show me one satire please .D

  • Kateye70

    Just an aside...I don't remember ever believing the 'santa claus, easter bunny, tooth fairy' stories as a child...I never went through a 'stages of grief' of losing those beliefs.

    Maybe I was a born skeptic, or maybe I just understood that my parents were using a gentle fantasy to create a shared experience. I upheld my role as 'delighted child' to help create it, along with other recurring events such as going to church on sundays, or long drives in the country for picnics, or birthday celebrations. As I grew older, my role changed from delighted child to supporting sibling so the younger ones could have the same fun.

    Does anyone *really* remember actually believing in santa clause, the easter bunny or the tooth fairy? This is a serious question, because for some reason, I've never thought anyone actually did. Knowing as a child that adults create fantasies for children, I always assumed everyone else knew this as a child.

    If so, then I guess I can understand why they would be so upset if their god was included in the cast of 'no longer to be believed' stories.

  • robertallen1

    For one, it is based on faith.

  • Giacomo della Svezia

    @Kateye70
    I think I remember when I was a very young child that I took the story about Saint Nicolas (the origin of Santa Claus) that is taught in my country to be true. I wasn't very much older when I started to have doubts, still I felt a bit tricked when my parents admitted it wasn't true when I was about 10.

  • robertallen1

    You had to find out sometime and it might have been just as well before you reached your teens.

  • Giacomo della Svezia

    Maybe I had reached my teens, but no serious harm was done.

    Watching it again I can't help but laugh at some of the sketches in this series. I recommend it to anyone who had a bad day at the office. ; )

  • Kateye70

    Was it the same type of fantasy story American children are told? Because I remember reading a version of the St. Nicholas story that sounded like a good man taking care of his neighbors, and it seemed perfectly reasonable to me.

    I always assumed the "every child in every house gift' thing wasn't real, though. Maybe living in a tropical country and seeing Santa jump off a helicopter in khaki shorts threw the whole thing off kilter, lol.

  • Giacomo della Svezia

    The story told in the Netherlands has a lot of similarities with Santa Claus. Some details are very different: Santa lives somewhere up north, Saint Nicholas comes from 'Spain', etc. The story is based on the bishop in Mira taking care of come children who were about to be sold as slaves, if I remember right.
    I think in essence all these stories are very much the same. I read a long time ago there is a story that is told in Italy about a benevolent witch giving presents too.
    I could never have imagined Santa in khaki, even though I made a cartoon with him in cycling outfit. : ))

  • Common_J

    I like religious people, they find hope in bad situations and they're always nice to me. my rational mind is a curse, religion offers answers to the questions the rational folk just cant answer.
    we may think that religion is "ridiculous" or even strange, but religion offer simplicity that i sometimes wish i had.

  • robertallen1

    I hate religion and everything it stands for--and it's never been known to answer a single question yet.

  • Common_J

    Questions answered in a religious sense, "why is this happening to me?" Answer: Because god a has a plan for.
    LOL I await the day someone says "Because science has a plan for you"

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    Then you'll be waiting for eternity. If it starts "having a plan" than it ceases to be science.

  • Teddy Mcd

    ? - Which god would that be of the countless deities extinct and extant?

    LOL - I don't await the day someone says, "Because science has a plan for me." Science doesn't because it is not within its purview!

  • LiquidCourage

    It's only an answer if it is actually true, not if it is made up. Lies don't qualify as answers. How about Buddhism? You are here to break the cycle of rebirth and enter nirvana. No God there. Still similar to your answer in that it is a made up story. It's all made up. Get a clue.

  • http://www.facebook.com/wcwalker1 William C. Walker

    Hi Metacrock, I'm back ! I stand in awe of your knowledge of astronomy & physics, & your ability to reconcile all of this with a book of (mostly) early iron age mythology. I admit I read the entire bible only once as a very young man, over 65 years ago. But, as a bookworm, I have read extensively Greek & Roman mythology. Also Roman history & a number of bios on Emperor Constantine. All of this lead me to view the bible as simply a compilation of mythology covering a vast area & many centuries. I am still struck by the fact that there is nothing NEW in Xianity. Constantines' council at Nicaea simply threw together all of this & insisted that these few hundred men, out of about 1800 who were invited, agree to accept the MAJORITY ruling on the contents of the 'new' testament. My heart goes out to you being shackled to that one book. I wish you good luck in any departure from it.

  • robertallen1

    Basiclally you're right, except for the Council at Nicea by which I take it you mean the first one in 325 A.D. According to the records we have, nothing about the canon was discussed--and nothing needed to be as the New Testament canon had been pretty much set about 75 years before around the middle of the third century.

    While I regard the bible as you do, I find biblical scholarship fascinating. Are you familiar with Bart Ehrman?

    From one bookworm to another.

  • Russ101

    Hey I approach things perhaps different than most, Proudly despite being hid behind a veil of words that have NOTHING to do with who I truly am nor how I think. But my question is this:

    How can we disprove the possible existence of (a) god, if we have nothing solid to deduce. if seeing is believing maybe we're not looking close enough. maybe god is the inner experience of man's measure to the astounding and baffling world around him. Perhaps man himself is the instrument who must remain 'god like' to enable him to create a greater understanding over his world, to even keep his senses ever vigilant to folly that truly a god could not be brought easily down by.

    With science in this respect, man is no longer the center of his own world, if someone else were, like Jesus than empathy with another heart takes it's place in the form of love, but if science were to be there than where will man stand in such a world? can anyone riddle me this?

    Check out some quotes of C.G. Jung and what he thought about god, But if, for instance, the statement that Christ rose from the dead is to be understood not literally but symbolically, then it is capable of various interpretations that do not collide with knowledge and does not impair the meaning of the statement....the danger that a mythology understood too literally, and as taught by the Church, will suddenly be repudiated lock, stock, and barrel is today greater than ever. Is it not time that the Christian mythology, instead of being wiped out, was understood symbolically for once?"

    "This is not to say that Christianity is finished. I am on the contrary, convinced that it is not Christianity, but our conception and interpretation of it, that has become antiquated in the face of the present world situation. The Christian symbol is a living thing that carries in itself the seeds of further development."

    "And are not Jesus and Paul prototypes of those who, trusting their inner experience, have gone their own individual ways, disregarding public opinion?

    "...it should not be forgotten that , unlike other religions, Christianity holds at its core a symbol which has for its content the individual way of life of a man, the Son of Man, and that it even regards this individuation process as the incarnation and revelation of God Himself. Hence the development of the self acquires a significance whose full implications have hardly begun to be appreciated because too much attention to externals blocks the way to immediate inner experience."

  • Kateye70

    You're pointing out the difference between literalism and figurativism.

    It would be nice if literalist christians could understand the difference, too.

    What you are proposing is that people realize the bible is a mixture of myth, folklore and spiritual guidance, and value it accordingly.

    Science is just a methodology. It's not a replacement for spiritual belief. It's a description of the natural world and the natural forces within it.

    The problem religious leaders have with science is that it relentlessly pulls back the curtain on the religious organizations, demonstrating that there is no "Mighty Oz" sitting behind it, but instead just a sideshow huckster.

  • robertallen1

    Again, what are you rambling on about? Again, try plainEnglish.

  • Russ101

    Your response tells me you have educated yourself quite well, Kateye. ;) I propose instead that religion serves as a culture-buff, ensuing close knit bonds stitching people with ceremonial stewardship to hold people together by stories, to dream, to imagine. Science is methodology, but one can find themselves comparatively less than captivated in a room with a book full all the answers of the world, the universe written there for you. The conundrum is the story telling moral teaching side of Religion, it's mystery was deeper because It's story actually involved us, in our dreams and gave one a sense of affirmation. The problem with this dichotomy is the lack of life affirming mystery of science because it's all pent up in school just as the way Socrates would have written, "only those who know geometry may enter" in what would be the most Astonishing conventions about the nature of reality. And for Christians, especially if you live in a small town, churches. Methodist, Pentecostal, etc. you know? where like a chain of franchise resturaunts would replace fine dining and cuisine to take your whole family. (metaphorically) and a sloppy simple patty, buns and ketchup is all you get. :'(

    I know this is getting long, Kateye, Thank you for reading by the way.

    But what I propose is that we reinvent our modern Idea of religion from it's heap of ashes charred with the very demeanor of our barbarian ancestor scrutiny to pounce on matters as it were, instead we can weigh them delicately for what they truly are. Innocent people not bent on raping nature in every figurative sense of the word as impulse would tell us to learn, but I instead propose that we ask nature what she wants by way of confronting our own scientifically religiously or through the way where both meet. Shamanism.

    Psychedelics! or simply religiom through science XP Enthopharmacologist, Terence Mckenna discovered was the best way to learn about yourself, it proved far more spiritually promising than meditation. And meditation as neurologists have learned is the sure fire way to having a spiritual experience, shutting down the anterior cingulate, home to where all our fears dilute our every sense of well being. Psilocybin mushrooms as T.M. proposed taking has the potential to deactivates the smallest detectable fight or flight response by actually turning off these major instinctual parts of our brain, the neocortex involved in higher learning takes it's place. As stimulation of the many 5ht receptors improves IQ! Also scientist note that under psychedelics like Mushrooms or nnDMT the experience of god or angles, seeing them or communion with them immerges unexpectedly under the influence. Legally I do not recommend using drugs, just read up everyone. If you got this far, than take a break for now lol

    Thank you, Kateye for the limelight

    god exists... :P

  • robertallen1

    Just what are you drivelling about? Again try plain, clear English. The language accommodates this concept very well.

  • Kateye70

    So, scrap religion as we know it and turn to magic mushrooms instead.

    We've already discussed earlier that morality came before religion, not after.

  • Achems_Razor

    Correct me if I am wrong, but you are high on something, DMT? or something else?
    Shrooms? You are not even doing your "gish gallop" properly. Go to bed.

  • Russ101

    (read only if you're interested for yourself) ahm.. -Fortunately we get 'high' on DMT incrementally every night when we go to sleep because it is turned from serotonin and secreted by our pineal gland in dream sleep (the pineal gland 16th century philosopher, Rene Descartes thought was partly responsible for everything we perceive as his term for it was the seat of the soul because it was the only part of our brain past our cerebellum that was not divided by two hemispheres like the corpus callosum where the most creative psychological process's occur in every mammal) and it is even mentioned to exist in quantities in the spinal fluid. Mushrooms a (phosphorlized form of DMT once digested) has shown to not only to cure short to long term migraines but espically showing promises where an increase of visual acuity scientists like Fischer and Mckenna thought to be the most crucial part of the early hominid hunter gather's diet 100,000 years ago, increasing their likely hood to catch prey and see better in the night in small doses. In larger doses they found out it increased it not only aided spatial awareness, but may have contributed to the density of their minds after arriving in the African savanna where in their ceremonies grunt like sounds may have been formed however crude like a diamond in the rough eventually until they made these grunts, uniform- making language- psychedelics of course being the catalyst if you will. Later between waiting for their meals to as they held vigilently with their spears to only finding their minds wandering ever upward into the night's sky night after night until noticing one day they realized every few months each year they could find these mushrooms where at the time the iceage wouldn't easily allow one to know by fluctuations in relative temperatures. Eventually leading them to discover a calender system. Thus time and ritual were all in favor of supporting mushroom use and just as the euraisans were gathering the mold off barley to ingest erogtamine alkaloids (responsible for LSD like hallucinations) soon mushrooms may as well have been assimilated into an annual dietary tribal activity to induce sexual arousal and over all improve natural selection of their kin. Also Natural selection and the mushroom diet is a contributing theory as to how the neanderthals died out, by simple comparison. Anthropologists in the Shibobo tribes etc. in the Amazon noticed that the ENITRE tribes would take mushrooms or Ayahuasca (DMT and MAOI containing tea) together, men, woman, and yes... children. They noticed as a result of this brew that connected them to the cosmos, the jungle, but most importantly eachother. They as a result worked together in harmony, there was almost no crime between these people grew and grew and as their traditions to lock arms and all sing around a fire, they considered this Their BEST medicine. DMT is one of the most power psychedelics IN THE WORLD, it's in your brain, when you sleep when your thoughts just -click- and when you die, a surge of this potent compound is released creating the near death experience where one is visited by or encounters angels, or god.

    Dear Kateye, in regards to our earlier conversation; Speaking of Literalists. hhaha, but, Morality hand in hand with mortality are inseparable not by religion, but by love.

    Achem's Razor- It was 3 o clock when I made that last message so depending on your frame of hour, I was not sleepy, but I understand the inference 'to go to bed' peevishly as your way to denounce people, in some arrogant snobbish turn of nose or cold shouldering way. Instead I would tell people to WAKE UP!! you're sending people the wrong message. As such sleepiess is contagious. :O <--yawn

    Robert Tallen do you normally use the word 'Drivel' in every life? XD Why don't you use Enlgish. I imagine our conversations would go around and around, will some one please Translate Spanish for our fellow Roberto. Adios! :)

    So in that I say that it was almost a pleasure, listening to Kateye, Robert Tallen will be here every night like he usually is from all the history of this chatroom. BTW this movie is lame, I like Religulous because it has some humor to it. see you on the dark side of the moon as it were

  • Russ101

    Speaking of literalists ;P hahaha

    I choose (yes) btw. and Not to be like Socrates and answer your question with another, but would you allow in your mind the possibility for mere speculation that thousands of years ago mushrooms were once deeply interwoven into religious ceremonies of many people's possibly even mine and your own ancestors?

    PS. AM I the only idiot here who likes mushrooms? Or are my one sided conversations just a long smothering boon to not care to see proof in the pudding. OR is communication in this faceless cooky cut throat style a negligible form of human interaction. Where the humanities department comes off a little short considering how much we all shoot each other down to ironically talk about things to eachother in way that seems convincingly like someone is not just going bla bla bla but actually sharing a part of them selves. I think we all try to some extent play the part of the sleepless scientist or logistics professor or something with such an unyielding consideration to anything written by another human being unless it's apart of some major research effort.

    I 'am a charlatan here, and we all can be because this is not apart of some end to cancer or aids research project. but I know people can take themselves too seriously when just a little bit feels good enough.

  • Teddy Mcd

    I was gonna bite my unlearned tongue on this confab but because you mentioned this -

    "I propose instead that religion serves as a culture-buff, ensuing close knit bonds stitching people with ceremonial stewardship to hold people together by stories, to dream, to imagine." (Russ101)

    Then, I must say -

    Sounds nice and oh so beautiful if you say it fast and don't stop to think even for a nano-second about what you just said - let's restate it is thusly - if I may - which I shall...

    "I propose instead that religion serves as a cultural-chasm, ensuring divisiveness ripping asunder people with ceremonial slaughter to tear people apart by fear and fiction, to not dream. to not imagine." TMcd

    (note - I sense you should write a book at The Overlook Hotel.)

    Enjoy...

  • Russ101

    Okay that was a mildly enjoyed but well learned :) amalgam you made of many people throughout history and their psychological distortions due to religious thinking which say the radicalists of the middle east is under such spells, frankly their people have fight written allover thier blood it's no wonder that as a whole after thousands of years of continual slaughter they wouldn't try to justify themselves. Most people fight over power. So I ask you to take a close look with me into history and war for a second.

    The revoltutionary between 1775 and 1783 between the British and American was fought for an idea that seemed to be the only way America could ever escape these puritans and live under a new host of ideas, one won with the desire for freedom would involve the seperation from control of the church, the constitution, amendments, bill of rights, and finally a treaty... last but not least- blood.

    Infact blood and a mixture of sweat have always served as the sacrificial scaffolding for any major resolution in human history. one could almost see war analgously like an impregnation of ideals where physical force is the only sure way to reinstate not only their language but their favorite intellectual values of government, (not much unlike the way religion used to govern a people who also agreed with the religious institutions as opposed to tyrants and power.)

    in 1965 America went to Korea, after we saw Korea enslaving it's people under an evil communist dictatorship quickly immerging on the scene. after two world wars in the same half century everyone was getting kind of worried, espeically about atomic bombs and so The americans galvanised themselves to go and take down those evil commies once and for all.

    The 30 year war in 1618 through 1648 which listed of the most causalties of all 'relgious wars' (since they historians had nothing else to call it) listing upto around 11,000,000. historians have no real idea how or why it was started between the holy roman empire and western europe but it ended up over Catholics and Luthernist protestants taking land from only where every church stood in their way. Most people died of famine, but religious tensions held over a few hundred years mounted and everyone for some reason were against eachother for what they believed. But from a historical perspective it actually just turned out to be the business as usual type of age old rival ship.

    But I thought wait wait wait, what about peaceful religions? Just becuase people meet once a week to dance, sing or talk about their lives in community place does that mean they all secretly want to wage war on other people?

    The União do Vegetal (UDV) is a religious christian based ceremonial gathering held in what is called The Santo Daime church where people seek a specific relgious theme their, and that is the Ayahuasca ceremony where plants containing DMT and MAOI alkaloids, made into a tea, called Ayahuasca is consumed by people world wide for religious purposes like expanding self awareness. The santo damie ceremonies are guided under the constitution legally, once started, a people who have a different idea of whats right and wrong called the Drug Enforcement Adminitstration or DEA have been trying to bring down the fun ever since. However ignorant to the RFRA, and UN's Convention of Psychotropic Substance deemed it legal in 2006, Although by federal law it could be regulated, but the UDV chose to go back to their humble meetings still expanding their consciousness to this day.

    So Teddy, I want to say that if EVERYTHING that people believe in could be upholstered by some religious beliefs I think it's best to repsect what everybody believes, not always what they do, but because there is some truth to eitherside of the same coin. But no I don't believe in war. But war is never made for the same purpose but, our lives just get tied up in it. weather you're in the middle east or the suburbs on a rainy day reading this unhansomely jotted history lesson that serves to the fact, war weather disguised under fanatic religious devotion or you are fighting over bat turd as in the mid 1800's war will carry many faces, but somewhere there is you and I in history saying how stupid people can be for massavreing anybody for any reason. Thank god we live in a world where such problems are tens of thousands of miles away.

    it's insulting to my sanity Ted, that war for any means dosen't let me sleep any easier on this planet, but anyway to stick together even if it means going with your girl friend to church despite how much you dislike it helps you feel more connected, phew I've done that.... but every now and then I go into a church where the teeangers room is and I take them out of their books and into the real world where I say things similar to what you said. The next day I would reaarange their sign, so I 'am not some preacher or anything

    However much to what you argue I 'am not ignorant to the fact the crusades did happen. witch burning. I like to remain positive about what myths architypes fabled heroic deeds and other sorts of things certain Religions can offer needless of saying how hypocritical they are indeed. Life is far too deep and interesting I won't even stop to think, this world is full of murders and try to run and hide to live inside a bubble

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    "Fortunately we get 'high' on DMT incrementally every night when we go to sleep because it is turned from serotonin and secreted by our pineal gland in dream sleep "

    wrong. or at least no proof.

    and Mckenna is not a real scientist. he is a mystic.

  • fender24

    I believe the evidence for God's existence comes primarily from the design of the universe.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Samuel-Morrissey/627791008 Samuel Morrissey

    What design?

    I can't see a manufacturers stamp anywhere...

  • robertallen1

    Just how?

  • Kateye70

    I was just trying to make sense of what you said...that seemed to be the TL;DR version.

    IMHO religion has nothing to do with spirituality and everything to do with power and control. And money. Spiritual is interior; religion is exterior.

    I like turtles. =)

  • fender24

    That The universe is designed with just the right laws of physics is just a line of evidence that tells me that God is real and created the universe. The evidence for design in the universe and biology has changed many atheists about the belief of a Creative force in the universe, including me. The universe is like a soup of ingredients mixed together to form everything around us, if u add little more of one ingredient or little less of another it changes everything.

    "I can't see a manufacturers stamp anywhere" Do u need a name etched onto the surface of the planets to prove God's design? when i can just see it every night and day i guess if u were looking for a name u wouldn't believe it when u saw it anyway :D. God created the universe then the galaxies, stars and us are all "stamps" of His design. I doupt that all the physical laws would just happen to be tightly constrained by chance in order for all this to exist :D.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Samuel-Morrissey/627791008 Samuel Morrissey

    How do you tell when a thing has been designed?

    Is it different than something that has not been designed?

    You have made the claim ' God created the universe then the galaxies, stars and us are all "stamps" of His design.'

    So now either prove it, or withdraw your claim.

    ...

  • fender24

    "You have made the claim" I don't claim.

    "So now either prove it, or admit that you are likely wrong."

    I leave that to u :D Or prove that God does not exist.

  • Kateye70

    It's nice that fender24 has faith in something. Leave him to it. You know he can't prove it one way or another, that's what faith is.

    You and I both know that the human mind looks for patterns. =)

  • robertallen1

    In other words, you just look at something and because YOU see order, there must be a god, your god of whom you have inside knowledge such as its being the agent of creation.

    "I doubt that all the physical laws would just happen to be tightly constrained by chance in order for all this to exist." Because you doubt this (based on what, I wonder), it cannot be. Typical argument from incredulity and lack of knowledge of basic physics and biology.

    "The evidence for design in the universe and biology has changed many atheists about the belief of a Creative force in the universe, including me." Other than for yourself, where is the evidence to back this statement up? Did it ever occur to you that there might be more cases going in the opposite direction?

    So just where is your evidence for design and a designer or is it all in your typical creationist argument?

  • robertallen1

    Don't try that. As you're the one asserting, furnishing the proof is your responsibility, not Mr. Morrissey's. From your last sentence, it's obvious that you can't.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Samuel-Morrissey/627791008 Samuel Morrissey

    I didn't make the claim, not my job to prove or disprove.
    You made the claim - so it is your job to prove yourself wrong, and you shouldn't try to pass that responsibility on, nor deny you wrote what you did.

    I make no claim. therefore I have no reason to change my position, no need to go trying to prove or disprove anything.

    So post something to back up your argument or withdraw it, simple.
    Then maybe address some of my arguments to undermine my position if you feel it to be wrong :-

    How do you tell when a thing has been designed?
    Is it different than something that has not been designed?
    If no, how can you tell between them?
    If yes, then logically not everything has been designed.

    So by claiming that a thing is by design, you are making a much larger claim that its surroundings are not designed,

    Is a sand dune designed?
    Is a cloud designed?
    Is a river designed?
    Is a rainbow designed?

    All of these things have structure, a form of order. Maybe what you see as 'design' is simply order.

    Sam.

  • robertallen1

    That's sort of interesting. If everything is designed, then nothing is undesigned. Therefore, it is impossible to tell the difference, rendering the initial statement is absurd.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Samuel-Morrissey/627791008 Samuel Morrissey

    I'd be happy to leave him to it, but he wants to discuss it otherwise he wouldn't post, no?

    Doubt is the real redeeming quality of mind.
    Faith is a perverted swindling usurper.

    Regards,
    Sam.

  • Achems_Razor

    You are making a claim that your god exists.
    The onus is on you to prove/substantiate your claim, how do you know your gods created the universe then the galaxies, stars and all of us are stamps of "HIS"?? design?? have you got the blueprints?

    Just because you say so does not cut it, in the size, time scale and vastness of the universe, you are basically invisible, a nothing, so you carry no weight at all in that regard and certainly no spokesman nor have a pipeline to any of your gods.

    According to Stephen Hawking in his latest book "the grand design" he claims the universe was made from absolutely nothing, and backs it up with math.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Samuel-Morrissey/627791008 Samuel Morrissey

    The trick is the question is not whether a thing is by design or not,

    rather it is 'how do you tell?'

    Of which you should be reasonably sure of before making a claim one way or the other.

    Regards,
    Sam

  • robertallen1

    Can't you imagine his god not only creating the quantum world, but designing it in such a way that it operates differently from the magnum world. That's the thing about intelligent design: it assumes that there is only one design which in the face of science makes it unintelligent.

  • robertallen1

    Are the last two lines yours?

  • robertallen1

    O.K., but try this: It's reasonable to conclude from Fender's posts that Fender's god created only what was designed because he could not have created anything that was not designed. Now, if somethings are designed and other things not designed (although like you, I'm at a loss to tell the difference), Fender's god created only some of the universe which militates against the existence of Fender's god.

  • robertallen1

    Interesting article, some of which was touched on in Brian Greene's "The Fabric of the Cosmos" which I am now reading.

  • Kateye70

    It was pretty clear from his post that he has no idea what you all are talking about, he just made a faith-based claim that he sees design (order) in the universe and therefore has concluded that a god made it.

    But enjoy. =) I have a feeling it will all go over his head anyway.

  • Teddy Mcd

    My guess is that there must have been a quadrillion x a centillion x several googleplexes ways that our universe could've unfurled and this just happens to be one of them. Lucky us?

    And even if I'm wrong (fair chance) and there was only one lonely way for our universe to make it this far - still no reason to posit a creator other than one finds the idea fuzzy and warm. Just don't jam it down my throat - you'll be marmilized.

  • robertallen1

    With so many ways for the unfurling of our universe, mathematically it stands to reason that any number of them could have produced the same result. It's like throwing infinite numbers of pairs of dice and asking how many times snake eyes will come up. I think more than once is a viable answer. Also, I wonder how many failures there were before a winning combination came up.

    Do you mean "marmalized?"

  • robertallen1

    Everthing goes over a creationist's head except creationism.

  • dewflirt

    But if you add a little something else or remove something you'll still get a universe, just a different one. Like leaving two different plates of food under a teenagers bed, both will go mouldy but with different mould. And honestly, mould will find a way, it doesn't need help :/
    No doubt some of the inhabitants/spores would think the universe/dinner had been made just for them. Not so, teen daughter no.1 is definitely more big bang than thoughtful creator! Also she swears that it wasn't her that left the plates there and it certainly wasn't me. The chances of them turning up from nowhere must be gastronomical but it happened anyway. Amazing! I have a sneaking suspicion that the universe is littered with life, it's just very far apart!
    I wonder if my daughter is responsible for all the mould under all the beds in all the world? Wouldn't surprise me...
    So for me, no creator. Just a happy accident :)

  • robertallen1

    Another wonderful example of your wistfulness. Keep it up.

  • Achems_Razor

    LOL, way of topic but yes, when my daughter was a teenager, decided to clean up her room, 6 hours later, finding stuff, stuffed in various crooks and crannies, behind cabinets etc: and even lo and behold stuff she said was missing or stolen.

    And then to our chagrin she raised the roof that we even touched her stuff as only a 15 year old can do, she claimed every thing was to neat, could not find anything, but in another universe, another reality was neat to begin with?? somehow I doubt that.

  • Teddy Mcd

    "Do you mean "marmalized?""

    Of course - just wanted to keep you busy buddy.

    Yes it might have happened more than once and maybe identically. And maybe there is, in another pocket universe, a guy sitting there tapping this selfsame comment out. Maybe many.

    The universe (to me) is beyond comprehension in expanse and time too. True I not a scientist nor mathematician yet I follow matters closely enough to agree the current model works or fits with what we know and don't know - but how much is that really?

    I enjoy it because - it amuses me. The universe (what?) is a playground of possibilities - ain't this so.

  • fender24

    "So just where is your evidence for design and a designer or is it all in your typical creationist argument? "

    Our universe is incredibly "fine-tuned" for life to come into existence, thus providing evidence of a transcendent designer. Because i do not think the universe just came into existence from nothing it makes sense that a super-intelligent, powerful Being invented the laws of physics that produced the universe. It is that simple, why i believe what i do is in the cosmology and biology.
    The universe, our galaxy, our Solar System and the Earth-Moon double planet system demonstrate some remarkable evidence of intelligent design to me and all this is observable. I never implied that i can prove that God exist physically but i know he does and that there is no doupt :D that is my personal belief. Just like you have a belief that God does not exist?
    We know that universe had a cause a beginning, that there is no way to get rid of a beginning to any universe that is characterized by cosmic expansion. However, strong atheism states that there is no God, even though observational evidence indicates that the universe has a cause that cannot be detected observationally, so despite the lack of observational evidence for a naturalistic cause atheists who denies the possible existence of God violates his own worldview.
    Atheists who say that science cannot have anything to say about the existence of God. However, they think that they can prove the non-existence of God through science. Although science cannot directly detect God, it can examine His creation. Consider the non-physical concept of love. We all accept that love exists, although it cannot be directly measured by science. However, if we observe those who love each other, we can indirectly measure the affect of love on these individuals' actions. Likewise, although we cannot measure God directly, we can examine the universe to detect God's imprint on the physical world

    Recent Studies have confirmed the fine tuning of the cosmological constant (also known as "dark energy"). This cosmological constant is a force that increases with the increasing size of the universe.
    Another finely tuned constant is the strong nuclear force (the force that holds atoms together). Strong nuclear force constant
    if larger: no hydrogen would form; atomic nuclei for most life-essential elements would be unstable; thus, no life chemistry
    If smaller: no elements heavier than hydrogen would form: again, no life chemistry

    "Other than for yourself, where is the evidence to back this statement up?" Lol u are lazy i thought i did not need to when this is available to everyone. The evidence for design in the universe and biology is so strong that Antony Flew, a long-time proponent of atheism, renounced his atheism in 2004 and now believes that the existence of a Creator is required to explain the universe and life in it. Likewise, Frank Tipler, Professor of the Department of Mathematics at Tulane University, and a former atheist, not only became a theist, but is now a born-again Christian because of the laws of physics. Why does the laws of physics exist? by chance or design? :D Steven hawking could not answer that.

    :D The design of the earth and solar system is also quite impressive. Likewise, chemistry and physics preclude the possibility that life evolved on earth. Galaxy size if too large: infusion of gas and stars would disturb sun's orbit and ignite deadly galactic eruptions
    if too small: infusion of gas would be insufficient to sustain star formation long enough for life to form
    Galaxy type (p = 0.1)
    If too elliptical: star formation would cease before sufficient heavy elements formed for life chemistry
    if too irregular: radiation exposure would be too severe (at times) and life-essential heavy elements would not form

    Yet science has not detected any life on other planets, doesn't that prove the miracle of life that we are unique?

    U don't believe in miracles?

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    So the evidence backing up your statement is solely based on TWO people out of millions of atheists that happened to convert to Christianity? Your "evidence" only proves that those two individuals are crackpots, nothing more. And judging that you even consider this evidence shows how crackpot you are. I mean.. really? If a scientist distracts their work with religion, they cease to be respectable scientists, therefore your radical (and very scary) argument is invalid.

  • robertallen1

    Asserting that our universe is "incredibly 'fine-tuned' for life to come into existence . . . " is the mark of someone who doesn't know the first thing about basic biology, physics and chemistry. Did it ever occur to you that the cosmological constants so endearing to your theology might have evolved, i.e., that you're looking at the history of the universe backwards? Even granting the truth of your statement, there is nothing in it to imply a transcendent designer, except your inane theology. In short, you've tried to support your quantum leap forward with WHAT YOU THINK, which would be laughable were it not so pathetic.

    We don't need some supernatural third party whose existence can only be at best inferred and at worst unproven and whom no one knows anthing about, to explain the beginning of the universe, except in the fairy tale world of your theology.

    And speaking of the fairy tale world of your theology, using our current inability to scientifically measure certain things (you're obviously not up on the latest scientific experiments on the emotions of which "love" is one) as proof of the existence of god's alleged immeasurable imprint on the physical world is as idiotic as your juxtaposition of science with atheism and your quantum leap in declaring me to be an atheist. Supporting evidence is apparently an anathema to you. For your information, as a whole, modern atheists do not claim that there is no god, but that so far there has not been any evidence sufficient to prove the existence of one. I hope that you can appreciate the considerable distinction and difference as I hope that you can appreciate the illogicality of your question pertaining to life on other planets, namely that the CURRENT inability of science to discover "life" on other planets does not imply uniqueness of life on this one.

    So you thought you didn't need evidence to back up your assertions because you "think" (there we go, belief as opposed to proof) such evidence is readily available. You're obviously suffering from an intellectual disorder affecting so many of your ilk, an inability to grasp the concept that if you assert, you furnish the proof (not supposition) and when it comes to the existence of a supreme being, a few quotes from authority on a subject outside their fields of study and of which they know as much about as anyone else demonstrate nothing. In this regard, you fail to mention that Dr. Tipler's omega point cosmology (described by George Ellis in "Nature" as "a masterpiece of pseudoscience) has been discredited by virtually all the mainstream scientific world (the world that counts). Also in this regard, why did you fail to indicate the source of your information as to what Dr. Hawking allegedly cannot answer--or is this merely another sample of your "belief?"

    In short, you have offered no proof of anything, only supposition, belief and quotes from authority, together with your theology (that's what intelligent design is) which inhibits all logic and rational thought,

    In answer to your last question, wrapping something in a miracle says nothing about it, except that you know nothing concerning it. Miracles are for little children, ignoramuses and mental deficients.

    I

  • robertallen1

    Right. It's like a biologist denying evolution, a chemist denying the existence of bacteria and viruses and a geologist denying that the earth is about 4.5 billion years old.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    "Our universe is incredibly "fine-tuned" for life to come into existence, thus providing evidence of a transcendent designer."

    nothing about this is logical. first off the universe is VERY hostile to life forming. the majority of the universe certainly cannot harbor life. there is no purpose for much of the universe if the main goal was life.

    "Because i do not think the universe just came into existence from nothing it makes sense that a super-intelligent, powerful Being invented the laws of physics that produced the universe."

    your problem is you think the only other answer is the universe came from nothing, but that is not true. you can simply say you dont know. you can also try to understand what physicists say. the universe came from a quantum singularity. we dont fully understand the quantum scale so you hold off an answer until more evidence comes forward....WHY IS THAT SO HARD? why do you have to make up a being that existed for ever and just decided to make everything one day, and decided to judge the life he makes...and throws in some viruses and terrible diseases while he is at it....Why does that make sense to you?

    "The universe, our galaxy, our Solar System and the Earth-Moon double planet system demonstrate some remarkable evidence of intelligent design to me and all this is observable"

    why? The universe formed 14 BILLION years ago, then it took 10 BILLION years before our solar system formed, then it took another 4 BILLION years for humans to come on the scene.

    Humans could very well go extinct tomorrow. we could set off all our nuclear bombs and all life would be gone....but the universe would continue.

    and you think it was made FOR US?!?!!??! you think there was some intention behind this?!?!?! what did it wait for?

    "I never implied that i can prove that God exist physically but i know he does and that there is no doupt :D that is my personal belief. Just like you have a belief that God does not exist?"

    You understand that BELIEF and KNOWLEDGE are two very different things? you cant say you know something and that you believe it. you dont KNOW that god exists. you believe it. and I dont KNOW god doesnt exist. but the fact that you dont KNOW god exists should lead you to at least be honest with yourself and question WHY you insist on believing it is true....dont you think?

    "We know that universe had a cause a beginning, that there is no way to get rid of a beginning to any universe that is characterized by cosmic expansion. However, strong atheism states that there is no God, even though observational evidence indicates that the universe has a cause that cannot be detected observationally, so despite the lack of observational evidence for a naturalistic cause atheists who denies the possible existence of God violates his own worldview"

    we know the universe at its state came into existence at one point. that doesnt mean a god must have made it. it was in a singularity with no time or space. upon expansion (which could have happened for countless different reasons) time and space came into existence. but that singularity existed in SOMETHING. it was on the quantum level. we are still trying to understand the laws of the quantum level. so you have a completely false view of what science and atheists think.

    "Atheists who say that science cannot have anything to say about the existence of God. However, they think that they can prove the non-existence of God through science."

    again, you dont understand the atheists position. science can not study something that doesnt have any falsifiable claims. i can say there is an invisible dragon in my garage that you cant detect because it is supernatural. that is a claim science cant test. just like god.

    BUT NO ON says that we can prove the non-existence of god through science. that doesnt make sense. for any claim someone makes for god, if it is testable we can use science to determine the truth of the claim and if it doesnt hold up we can dismiss the claim.

    "Consider the non-physical concept of love. We all accept that love exists, although it cannot be directly measured by science."

    Love is understood by science on a material level. just because you dont know it doesnt mean scientists who study it dont.

    look up Neurology of love.

    "Likewise, although we cannot measure God directly, we can examine the universe to detect God's imprint on the physical world"

    if this is true how come when we examine the universe (we being people who arent religious) we dont see evidence of YOUR god? and when people of different religions look at the universe they all see evidence to support THEIR gods. just like you see evidence to support your god. clearly you guys are not aware how to look for evidence without giving in to your cognitive bias.

    "Recent Studies have confirmed the fine tuning of the cosmological constant (also known as "dark energy"). This cosmological constant is a force that increases with the increasing size of the universe.
    Another finely tuned constant is the strong nuclear force (the force that holds atoms together). Strong nuclear force constant
    if larger: no hydrogen would form; atomic nuclei for most life-essential elements would be unstable; thus, no life chemistry
    If smaller: no elements heavier than hydrogen would form: again, no life chemistry"

    but that doesnt conclude that a god MUST have made it that way.

    " The evidence for design in the universe and biology is so strong that Antony Flew, a long-time proponent of atheism, renounced his atheism in 2004 and now believes that the existence of a Creator is required to explain the universe and life in it. Likewise, Frank Tipler, Professor of the Department of Mathematics at Tulane University, and a former atheist, not only became a theist, but is now a born-again Christian because of the laws of physics."

    two men getting closer to their death turned to a religion that is dominante in their culture....and you hold that up as evidence for your god?

    should i show you all the people who grew up religious and became atheist after learning?

    would that be evidence for or against a god?

    all you have shown in this instance is that people are able to change their minds....that is good.

    "The design of the earth and solar system is also quite impressive. Likewise, chemistry and physics preclude the possibility that life evolved on earth. Galaxy size if too large: infusion of gas and stars would disturb sun's orbit and ignite deadly galactic eruptions
    if too small: infusion of gas would be insufficient to sustain star formation long enough for life to form
    Galaxy type (p = 0.1)
    If too elliptical: star formation would cease before sufficient heavy elements formed for life chemistry
    if too irregular: radiation exposure would be too severe (at times) and life-essential heavy elements would not form"

    if a god were real why would he need to obey all these things? didnt he make these rules? what would be the point of all this if there was actually an intelligent designer? none of this seems intelligent. it all seems natural and it had to fall into a way that fits. that is all.

    "Yet science has not detected any life on other planets, doesn't that prove the miracle of life that we are unique?"

    we are detecting the possibility of life on a moon going around Jupiter...so if there is life in the universe elsewhere would that take away from your argument or would you just twist it to fit that also?

    remember the universe existed for basically 14 billion years without humans and will continue without us....how are we or and life the goal and not just another byproduct?

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    why couldnt god be Shiva? or Thor? why the christian god?

  • Achems_Razor

    The universe (including the earth) and its constants are not fine tuned for life and humanity.

    Instead life and humanity, through evolution, are fine tuned to the universe (especially the earth) as it is.

  • robertallen1

    @Epicurus and Achem--and, of course, anyone else:

    I've been reading "The Fabric of the Cosmos" by Brian Greene and have completed the section on the quantum world which seems to set in relief the idiocy and ignorance all of the creationist arguments as typically expressed by fender24.

    The problem with intelligent design (creationism if you prefer) is that it tries to dumb down the complex workings of life, the universe and the histories thereto and will do everything it can to keep it dumbed down, including lying, cheating and deceiving (by the way, there are no answers in Genesis). Epicurus, you are right. "I don't know, but I'm going to try to find out" beats "I believe" by a cosmological mile.

  • Kateye70

    I vote for Gaia. If we're going to worship anything, it may as well be the earth we live on.

  • Pysmythe

    My vote is for the Sun (no pun intended), since absolutely nothing here happens without it.

  • Kateye70

    Gaia + Sun = marriage made in the heavens! (pun intended)

  • fender24

    Lone Ranger and Tonto

    The Lone Ranger and Tonto are camping in the desert, set up their tent, and are asleep. Some hours later, The Lone Ranger wakes his faithful friend.
    "Tonto, look up and tell me what you see."
    Tonto replies, "Me see millions of stars."
    "What does that tell you?" asks The Lone Ranger.
    Tonto ponders for a minute.
    "Astronomically speaking, it tells me that there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of planets.
    Astrologically, it tells me that Saturn is in Leo.
    Time wise, it appears to be approximately a quarter past three.
    Theologically, it's evident the Lord is all powerful and we are small and insignificant.
    Meteorologically, it seems we will have a beautiful day tomorrow.
    What it tell you, Kemo Sabi?"
    The Lone Ranger is silent for a moment, then speaks.
    "Tonto, you Dumb Hoss, someone has stolen our tent."

  • Pysmythe

    Lol, I like that! Perfect. :)

  • dewflirt

    Is god a christian? ;)

  • over the edge

    dewflirt
    well if we assume that his son was the same religion as his father (or himself) then god is an Arab/Jewish man. and as we know the average height at the time for a man was 5 foot to 5 foot 1 and according to the acts of John he was (Jesus) "a man of small stature" . so picture a Jewish super Mario and you are close. why do i get the feeling that this post is going to get me in trouble. again :(

    edit: lol i just noticed you are post 666. i knew you were a little devil :)

  • Pysmythe

    Whatever his religion may be, I know damned well his (New Testament) politics are (pretty much) SOCIALIST! :D

  • dewflirt

    I am very glad of our little planet, and of all that is in, on and around it but I don't think I could bring myself to worship any of it. It didn't make itself just for our comfort and happiness and anyway, Is my pleasure in it not thanks enough? Every time I lay myself on the grass i am hugging the earth and smiling into its sky blue eyes. That should be plenty enough worship for any deity. And the sun has not shone enough to have kissed me properly this summer, so I hardly have reason to sing his praises. So half hearted an effort, I'm not offering devotion in return for that! ;)

  • dewflirt

    @ pysmythe and edge, another little Hitler type then? ;)
    Edit! I am feeling devilish today !

  • Pysmythe

    Ah, now, Dewy, the Sun would still embrace you with his warmth, rain his tender rays upon you, enfold you in what light he could offer, and hope that you bloom in all ways, as best as he is able! Do not fault him for it, if Gaia should cast up clouds and cold in her jealousy, and make him seem to stand off at such a distance. He has less proximity to you than he could wish, and so must be eclipsed by whatever wiles she may rightly deem reasonable.

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    So.. no rebuttal? You are just going to barrel right through and not answer to Epicurus, robertallen1, and my arguments? That's a huge problem with you religious nuts. You can list point-by-point your ridiculous arguments as if you wanted to have an intellectual discussion, but when someone rebuts your statements, you can't answer to THEIR arguments point-by-point. Is your instinctive rationality starting to dilute your ignorance, sir? I truly hope so!

  • Kateye70

    So, your comment started me thinking (always a dangerous prospect!).

    It seems to me that what is missing from the judeo-christian-islamic trilogy is the feminine divine.

    Think about it. The jewish god is a male. The islamic god is a male. The christian god is a male, who sent his son, also a male, to save us all. Then these two guys teamed up with a holy spirit, presumably either sexless or also a male--but certainly not female.

    Now, all three of these religions claim their god is the same god. But all three of them are squabbling and fighting like little boys all trying to get into the same basket of goodies, and determined that that other two won't.

    Each boy has one hand and all their weight leaning on the basket lid to keep it shut. Meanwhile they're using their other fist to punch the other two boys, trying to fight them off. No one is getting any goodies and they've all got black eyes and bruises.

    Where's mama? Where's the balancing power of the feminine to first send these little brats into time out, and then sit all three of them down and teach them how to share?

    Look into Genesis, at the story of Adam and Eve. Behold the feminine, turned into the temptress, the whore, the slave. Where is the nurturer, the mother, the loving partner, the wise healer? She is left to bleed in childbirth and be sold into into bondage.

    Now you know why I, too, prefer not to worship.

  • robertallen1

    Can't you imagine all the godesses getting together for a tupperware party or a game of bridge?

  • Kateye70

    Sure, but when they do that they're accused of being witches and burned at the stake...

  • Kateye70

    I believe there is a psychological explanation for this hatred of women...after all, who is the first person to say no to a child? His mother, of course.

    On the other hand, there are plenty of religions and spiritual practices that acknowledge the balance of the male and female. What the heck happened in the middle east? Were their moms really that much worse than everyone elses?!?

  • Kateye70

    Lone Ranger and Tonto, cont'd

    Tonto looks pityingly at the Lone Ranger.
    "Me take down tent for better view."

  • Kateye70

    Thanks for the link, that's an interesting website.

    I found another page on it about "E-Prime" or, how to write without using any form of the verb "to be". Fascinating!

  • robertallen1

    And just which site is this? How do you get around writing "I was going" as opposed to "I used to go," but of which are in the imperfect tense. Second, why would anyone want to dispense with using the verb to be and its various forms in the first place?

  • Pysmythe

    Obviously, fear is at the root of this lack of balance, for whatever all the reasons. And as many of us know, fear leads to anger, and anger leads to the dark side. :) [ Or, for the perhaps more ecologically-minded among us, "fear is the mind killer." ] One other reason may be -and it sure is one that makes a lot of sense to me, personally, I have to admit, even though you may find it more or less equally juvenile- one that I read, or saw, somewhere a while back, I've forgotten which, so I couldn't give you a link right now... if it were even necessary. But the gist of it had to do with the Abrahamic religions, especially, viewing women as pretty much simply straight up competition with God in the hearts of men. With their inherent beauty, the power they have to give life, the love they are the first to bestow upon us, all these attributes, and others, add up to an immense danger for the male soul, seeing that with such a creature in his midst here, he is in peril of taking his eyes off of eternity, becoming more tied to the material world, and so on and so forth. Hence, all that business about making women whores and temptresses, and every other evil thing, lest a man get the idea he may be in enough of a heaven already.

  • Achems_Razor

    I don't believe it is actual hatred, it is just that males have more testosterone, as in most of the animal species where the males are dominant, alpha male wolves, Baboons, for example.

  • Kateye70

    As Pysmythe suggests, I might better have said, "fear."

    Are human males that dominant in our species? I would have thought more cooperative males would have better mating success in a highly-social species.

  • Kateye70

    I believe you are right.

    Although that then brings up the question, why give up the feminine divine at all? Why only one god, and that one male? What's the benefit?

    Other societies did just fine with both male and female deities.

    Quite frankly, I get a little impatient with this notion that women are responsible for men's inability to control their sexual impulses.

    What good is restraining oneself to demonstrate one's piety, if there's no temptation to restrain against? (assuming one needs to do such a thing in the first place...) That's just being coddled into goodness.

    Lessons learned from self-restraint go a long way toward achieving goals in many areas, I would think; a valuable life skill to learn.

  • Achems_Razor

    Males are not as dominant now as they used to be in say cave-man days, just club them over the head and drag them in, lol.

    Now instead of pure dominance a man has to have the smarts and tell women what they want to hear and by using proper actions/techniques to get anywhere near any mating success.

  • robertallen1

    During my salad days, I recall a bumper sticker which read, "Help stamp out rape. Say yes."

  • Kateye70

    It's on the nobeliefs . com website, there's a link on the main page under science and philosophy "Understanding E-Prime". As for your question, "to go" is not "to be," so that's not a good example as I understand it.

    E-Prime was designed for precision in scientific writing; I suggest you read the article, I believe it's right up your alley! And yes, I am stating this! The examples given demonstrate the concept very well.

    From the start of the paper:

    "E-PRIME, abolishing all forms of the verb "to be," has its roots in the field of general semantics, as presented by Alfred Korzybski in his 1933 book, Science and Sanity. Korzybski pointed out the pitfalls associated with, and produced by, two usages of "to be": identity and predication.

    "His student D. David Bourland, Jr., observed that even linguistically sensitive people do not seem able to avoid identity and predication uses of "to be" if they continue to use the verb at all.

    "Bourland pioneered in demonstrating that one can indeed write and speak without using any form of "to be," calling this subset of the English language "E-Prime." Many have urged the use of E-Prime in writing scientific and technical papers."

    Let me know what you think!

  • robertallen1

    "Was" is a form of the form of the verb "to be." However, I will read the article and get back to you.

  • robertallen1

    Are you familiar with the Cole Porter song, "Find Me a Primitive Man" from "50 Million Frenchmen?"

  • Kateye70

    Hmmm...you know, humans are highly deceptive critters. Any cave-man that clubbed a woman over the head was likely to have a little nightshade (or equivalent) sprinkled into his next meal, donchathink?

  • Kateye70

    Hehe, when it comes to the technicalities of grammar, my knowledge is much more on the practical side than anything else.

    However, I think that in order to properly 'E-Prime' your sentence it would still need to be complete rather than a fragment.

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    If you think men are bad when battling, you haven't been around your own sex much! Of all the fights I've seen in my day (and I've seen plenty), women fights were the most brutal (and entertaining)! :)

  • fender24

    The designs seen in cosmology and biology must be the result of an intelligent Designer.
    There are actually two major theories of biological evolution: Microevolution and Macroevolution. I accept microevolution as a scientifically reliable theory, which describes the intelligent design with which organisms were endowed by their Designer. However, in contrast to the reliability of microevolutionary theory, macroevolution is not supported by the record of nature or current scientific research.

    Even though science can not directly detect God, It can examine His creation.
    Evidence of design can be seen in the nature of the universe and how it came to be.
    The data from cosmology shows that the universe had a beginning when space, time, matter and energy exploded out from the cosmic event known as the Big Bang. COBE (Cosmic Background Explorer) was a satellite that measured the temperature of the radiation left over from the Big Bang. The COBE satellite found the expected variation in temperature and mapped it, providing a startling confirmation of the Hot Big Bang model. These results have largely silenced critics of the Big Bang, who were hoping to get rid of the “problem” of an initial beginning to the universe.
    "It is the discovery of the century, if not all time" Stephen Hawking
    "What we have found is evidence for the birth of the universe. It’s like looking at God." George Smoot (UC Berkeley - COBE project leader)

    Other theories rely upon sets of unlikely circumstances or phenomenon which can never be tested or proven.. Now scientists know what kind of Big Bang it was. The theological implications are inescapable. At some point in the past, the universe was created from what has been called a singularity (or no volume). This event must require the existence of a creator, either natural or supernatural (God).
    The Big Bang implies a universe which is created, therefore the need for a creator. Most likely, Hawking is trying to avoid the implications of general relativity that time had a beginning at the instant of the Big Bang. Time had a beginning, then the events that led to the Big Bang must lie outside of time - a second dimension of time. The Bible says that the universe was created in finite time from that which is not visible. In addition, the Bible describes an expanding universe model that God "spreads out the heavens" and that the visible parts were made from the invisible (Hebrews 11:3),5 both ideas supported by modern cosmology. Is this why atheists are so anxious to try to get rid of a beginning to the universe? :D Like Steven Hawking does in his newest book u can hardly call that science, it is not even a theory.

    For an ancient document written thousands of years ago, the Bible has made some remarkable scientific claims - many of which were not verified until this century. time is a construct of this universe and began at the initiation of the Big Bang. A God who exists outside the time constraints of the universe is not subject to cause and effect. So, the idea that God has always existed and is not caused follows logically from the fact that the universe and time itself was created at the Big Bang.

  • Pysmythe

    Certainly, the sexual impulse would have to be a fundamental part of it, maybe even central, but my impression from this article (or doc, or lecture, or whatever it was, lol) was of a fear among these religions that a man's attachment to a woman, or to the "idea of women" (for want of a better way to put it), could fairly easily go beyond just that into outright worship, from the material to the spiritual. And in this way would create a danger not only to men, but to women, as well. So that they have viewed her as a very real threat to what should be God's providence alone, in their eyes. No wonder, then, that many of them have "painted her up" with such hatred and thrown on the "revealing garments" they've decided she had better wear, for the "benefit" of everyone...

    I just wish like hell I could remember where it was I got this info... It was quite good, fairly comprehensive, and very enlightening, with a bit of that aura of inevitability that comes with a good argument. If I should suddenly recall it, I'll certainly post it for you. It was quite interesting, for sure.

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    "Hmmm...you know, humans are highly deceptive critters. Any cave-man that clubbed a woman over the head was likely to have a little nightshade (or equivalent) sprinkled into his next meal, donchathink?"

    It depends. A strong woman would probably not get beat over the head to begin with, and if it does happen, it would probably only happen once (as you stated, the nightshade meal). But there's a large population of weak women, who becomes weak from her own emotions or through male intimidation/manipulation, or both. This woman is the type to get clubbed over and over and blame herself, or just becomes complaisant to the violence.

    I wonder if many women were the latter in those days, due to the fact that men were such a necessity (protection/meat)?

  • Achems_Razor

    @fender24:

    Nothing that you have said of your bibles garners any scientific evidence whatsoever, and by starting your post..."The designs seen in cosmology and biology must be the result of an intelligent designer" was a dead giveaway you know nothing of what you speak, you are using an "argument from ignorance" means nothing.

    You are also using George Smoot as an "argument from authority."

    And the rest of your post is an "argument from improbability" and an "argument from design" with a smattering of "first cause argument"

    When you come on site and try to talk to us big boys you better do your homework and give us something that you can prove, instead of making useless claims.

  • robertallen1

    "The designs seen in cosmology and biology must be the result of an intelligent designer." Seen? By whom? And why does this entail a designer? "Must be" cannot take the place of proof.

    "Evidence of design can be seen in the nature of the universe and how it came to be?" As you have been previously asked, how do you distinguish between design and non-design? Who is doing the seeing? And just what is this evidence in the nature of the universe and why is it necessary to bring an intelligent designer into it?

    "The Big Bang implies a universe which is created and therefore the need for a creator." Why not " which came about" rather than "created?" Or is it that your theology governs whether it is accurate or not?

    And just what is the difference between microevolution and macroevolution? What makes you state that there is no scientific proof (record of nature, scientific research) for what you term macroevolution? Could it be what you have read on one of the creationist websites you probably frequent? And by the way, no one cares what you accept; it's what you can prove.

    "A God who exists outside the time constraints of the universe is not subject to cause and effect." First of all, show me your proof (not supposition or belief) that such a being exists. After that, prove to me that this being is not subject to cause and effect--and I don't mean by chimeric inference.

    "The Bible has made some remarkable scientific claims--many of which were not verified until this century." As with cosmological constants, you've got it backwards. With the increase of scientific information, religious fools started re-interpreting the Bible to conform to the latest discoveries. Your quote, however inappropriate, is a textbook example.

    Your posts scream with signal ignorance of biology (evolution), physics, genetics, mathematics and biblical scholarship. They constitute the same old pathetic creationist arguments and downright lies which if you had any education, you would be ashamed to make.

  • Kateye70

    Again, the assumption is for a single, male deity. That seems very lopsided to me.

    I also don't think that blaming someone else for one's own failings is very moral. In fact, it seems downright dishonest.

    If you do remember where you found that tidbit, let me know =)

  • Kateye70

    Oh, you missed my point.

    My analogy wasn't about grown men, it was about little children squabbling, and needing a good time-out and lessons in sharing.

  • Kateye70

    Are the women weak, or just pragmatic? Human babies are costly to raise to maturity. The nightshade solution might not show up until a better option presents itself. Long-range planning ftw,

  • robertallen1

    What's fragmentary about "I was going?" But if you insist, "I was going to hell."

    Now, what's so unscientific (inaccurate) about a sentence such as, "The temperature of the water was reduced to 100 degrees below freezing" or "It was observed that . . . " Should we substitute "The temperature of the water appeared (seemed) reduced to 100 degrees below freezing" and open the door to doubt? In scientific writing, it's general easy to distinguish an assertion from an opinion (i.e., seem or appear v. is), so I fail to see the benefit of E-Prime which from the examples provided often results in gangly constructions.

    In addition, the article failed to address the issue of idiom. Is it "I want a good cup of coffee" or "I want a cup of good coffee." Which is more accurate? Which causes stares? How would the first sentence normally be understood. "I crossed the bridge." When you think about it, the bridge crosses whatever's underneath it. You, on the other hand, walk over (or on top of) the bridge. So when was the last time you heard someone say, "I walked over (on top of) the bridge?"

    In sum, it's this sort of persnicketiness which not only can cause laughter in scientific paradise, but can turn back on itself and lead to gross misunderstanding. If it ain't broke . . . The language is just fine the way it is. People just need to know how to use it.

  • Sarcastic_Drew

    1. "I accept microevolution as a scientifically reliable theory, which describes the intelligent design with which organisms were endowed by their Designer. "

    Please provide your source that states mainstream science (not your one or two crackpots) believes organisms were endowed by a god.

    2. "Evidence of design can be seen in the nature of the universe and how it came to be. "

    You are using the word "evidence" when you should not. Evidence helps prove or disprove a theory. Since you said yourself, we cannot detect a God, how could you even surmise he/it was the cause of all this? If I walked into the woods and saw a footprint that was human-like but I just wasn't sure, I wouldn't come to the conclusion that the footprint was from Bigfoot. Since there is no evidence of Bigfoot being a reality, it would be unwise for me to make the assumption that the footprint was his/hers. Your thoughts?

    3. "Bible describes an expanding universe model that God "spreads out the heavens" and that the visible parts were made from the invisible (Hebrews 11:3)"

    It's funny how people claim the bible is up for interpretation, and other times the same people say it has SPECIFIC phrases which have only one parallel meaning. Clearly people in that age new nothing of modern science. You are interpreting a thousands year old phrase to mean something modern science has discovered in the past century. Do you see how incredibly ignorant that is? I mean, WTF LOOK AT THE TEXT MAN! It's so vague you could interpret it as millions of different things.

    4. "For an ancient document written thousands of years ago, the Bible has made some remarkable scientific claims"

    I cannot wait to hear what scientific claims the bible has made. Please give me a few examples. Seriously though, cut the bullsh*t and give me hard factual evidence of any scientific claims. "Spreads out the heavens" is not a scientific claim. You know what I'm looking for.

    Please respond to these 4 points. I would love to hear your thoughts point-by-point.

  • robertallen1

    Fine, but do we want him talking to little children as well?

  • Pysmythe

    But, in that case, it's their dishonesty, not mine! As far as only a male deity having... evolved there, I guess I'm pretty safe in assuming it had something to do with women being perceived as the weaker sex, and the need for a deity to be considered as strong as possible, even though, to be fair, the bible does refer to God as a spirit, and the language used to refer to him as male is intended to be taken figuratively.

  • Kateye70

    "I was going" becomes "I went." I don't see the "to be" in it, actually.

    Your temperature sentence might more accurately say: "The thermometer showed a reading of 100 degrees below freezing for the water."

    Or: "We recorded a thermometer reading of 100 degrees below freezing for the water."

    Did you read the addendum? It might clear up some of your questions, particularly on vernacular uses. As Jim Walker points out there,

    "Interestingly some advocates of E-prime claim that if you examine the history of literature, the works which contain the largest number of "to be" words usually involve the most vague or misleading concepts. The works that contain the least number of "to be" words usually come across much clearer. For an example, the preamble of the U.S. Constitution stands as a fine example of natural E-prime.

    "Nor have I heard its advocates demand E-prime for all expressions. In some cases E-prime would hinder the aim of its authors. For example, in the use of colloquial language, satire, jokes, lies, religious scripture, advertisements, or propaganda, E-prime could actually block the author's intent."

  • Kateye70

    Oh, yes, I understood you were quoting a source and did not mean to attribute anything to you personally. =)

    I'm just annoyed at the whole concept, the more I think about it and the older I get. And while the language may be 'figurative' it is certainly interpreted literally, and not by me!

  • http://www.facebook.com/dami.akomolafe Dami Akomolafe

    Evolution vs Intelligent design is I think, very silly. Okay i'm gonna admit that i'm religious... I am on an atheist chat site I know. I respect your views, I may not agree. But i respect them.

    I do wish we could all have always had dialogue on this topic rather than silly arguments that end up in disrespect and going in circles.

    Ok but to the point...

    I believe in Intelligent design.

    I believe in evolution.

    Why should these 2 points of view contradict one another?

  • robertallen1

    1. "I was going" (imperfect) and "I went" (simple perfect) mean two different things. Once again, "was" is a form of "to be."

    2. "We recorded" and "the temperature of the water was reduced" mean two different things.

    3. Yes, I read the addendum and my objection to E-prime in general remains the same. I don't see any substantiation for this claim, notwithstanding the U.S. Constitution. Also, what does literature have to do with vague or misleading concepts.

    As I stated earlier, I fail to see any good in E-prime, only drawbacks.

  • robertallen1

    First of all, this is not an atheist chat site.

    Kenneth R. Miller is a respected biologist and practicing Catholic who leaves his religion (and that's what intelligent design is) at the door of his lab. So, you could conceivably believe in both, provided you put science first.

  • Kateye70

    Fair enough. I found it interesting. =)

  • Kateye70

    I'm not sure you have to put either one first, merely keep each within its own domain. As you pointed out, Mr. Miller separates the two.

    Edit: To clarify, the 'two' are religion and science.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    im starting to feel ignored.

    "The designs seen in cosmology and biology must be the result of an intelligent Designer."

    lol this is a hell of a statement. and its just not the case. what we see in cosmology and biology must be the result of non-intelligence and natural causes. an intelligence would have done things MUCH better.

    "There are actually two major theories of biological evolution: Microevolution and Macroevolution."

    NO. this is another intelligent design lie. as someone who studies evolution on an academic level i assure you there is no REAL distinction. we know life has been here for billions of years. we know small changes over long periods of time lead to large changes. so microevolution MUST imply macroevolution.

    " I accept microevolution as a scientifically reliable theory, which describes the intelligent design with which organisms were endowed by their Designer. However, in contrast to the reliability of microevolutionary theory, macroevolution is not supported by the record of nature or current scientific research."

    see how easy it is to say something like this and feel right when you create a strawman like pretending there is a difference between micro and macroevolution. change in allele frequencies occur. over large periods of time those changes are large enough to create new species. there is AMPLE evidence of this happening in the lab as well as the fossil record and what we now know about genetics....all support what you deem macroevolution.

    you are pretending there is debate or argument in the scientific community about these things, and you are being lied to by your religious leaders.

    "Even though science can not directly detect God, It can examine His creation.
    Evidence of design can be seen in the nature of the universe and how it came to be. "

    i already addressed this in your last post....are you completely ignoring me? to be honest i am going through a healthy amount of time and effort to read and respond to you...why would you just ignore me?

    "At some point in the past, the universe was created from what has been called a singularity (or no volume). This event must require the existence of a creator, either natural or supernatural (God)."

    ......why? why MUST it require the existence of a CREATOR (which implies Intelligence). you have just made a non-sequitor. look it up.

    "The Big Bang implies a universe which is created, therefore the need for a creator."

    not at all. it does not imply CREATION it implies beginning. many things begin to exist without the help of an intentional creator. look at mountains or continents. they form naturally. no need for a creator.

    "Most likely, Hawking is trying to avoid the implications of general relativity that time had a beginning at the instant of the Big Bang."

    clearly you havent read a single thing Hawking has published. clearly you are not up to date on what physicists think.

    "In addition, the Bible describes an expanding universe model that God "spreads out the heavens" and that the visible parts were made from the invisible (Hebrews 11:3),5 both ideas supported by modern cosmology."

    Hebrews 11:3 says By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
    I cant find a single version that says the heavens are SPREAD out. and even if that were the case it would not support cosmology. it would support the belief that people held back then that the sky was like a sheet that was spread out over the earth.

    "Is this why atheists are so anxious to try to get rid of a beginning to the universe? :D Like Steven Hawking does in his newest book u can hardly call that science, it is not even a theory."

    You mean the strawman you created? wow....and you think you have even the slightest intelligence or education level to tell possibly the smartest man who has lived that he is wrong....that takes some balls sir. i must bow down to that.

    "For an ancient document written thousands of years ago, the Bible has made some remarkable scientific claims - many of which were not verified until this century. "

    .........

    Insects do not have four feet

    Lev 11:21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth
    upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the
    earth;

    Lev 11:22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and
    the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the
    grasshopper after his kind.

    Lev 11:23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet,
    shall be an abomination unto you.

    They have six. In fact, NOTHING that can fly has four feet.

    Rabbits do not chew their cud

    Lev 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

    They only appear to, due to mistaken human perception. How could an all knowing God not know this?

    Snakes, while built low, do not eat dirt nor dust

    Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

    The bat is not a bird

    Lev 11:13 These are the birds you are to detest and not eat because they are
    detestable: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture,

    Lev 11:19 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.

    Deu 14:11 You may eat any clean bird.

    Deu 14:12 But these you may not eat: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture,

    Deu 14:18 the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.

    The bat is in fact a flying mammal.

    Snails do not melt

    Psalm 58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like
    the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.

    The Earth is not flat

    Yet these verses indicate that the Earth must either be flat, square or rectangle!

    Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

    Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

    How can the Earth have four corners if it's sphere-shaped? Four corners indicate either a flat, square or rectangular structure!

    Likewise, notice the structural disposition of the Earth assumed by these verses.

    Psalms 67:7 God will bless us, and all the ends of the earth will fear him.

    Psalms 135:7 He makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth; he sends lightning with the rain and brings out the wind from his storehouses.

    Proverbs 30:4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

    Isaiah 40:28 Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth.

    Isaiah 41:9 I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you. I said, 'You are my servant'; I have chosen you and have not rejected you.

    Isaiah 5:26 He lifts up a banner for the distant nations, he whistles for those at the ends of the earth. Here they come, swiftly and speedily!

    Daniel 4:10-11 These are the visions I saw while lying in my bed: I looked, and there
    before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth.

    Zechariah 9:10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraim and the war-horses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth.

    Mark 13:26-27 At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

    Romans 10:18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

    How can a round sphere have "ends"? Also, in regard to Psalm 135:7, winds do not come from storehouses! So much for Biblical meteorology. And from Daniel 4:10-11, how can a tree be tall enough to touch the sky? Did the infallible Bible writers think that the sky had a roof? Also from Daniel:

    Daniel 4:20 The tree you saw, which grew large and strong, with its top touching the sky, visible to the whole earth...

    No matter how tall that tree is, there's no way it could be seen to the “ends of the Earth” on a spherical body! Likewise,

    Isaiah 18:3 All you people of the world, you who live on the earth, when a banner is raised on the mountains, you will see it, and when a trumpet sounds, you will hear it.

    Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain,
    and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

    Luke 4:5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world.

    Since astronomical bodies are spherical, you cannot see the entire exterior surface from anyplace on it, therefore you could not technically see "all the kingdoms of the world" from one point!

    Next,

    Proverbs 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

    Zechariah 12:1 This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth...

    A foundation structurally implies building a basement to the ground first to lay the rest above it!

    Similarly,

    Psalms 75:3 When the earth and all its people quake, it is I who hold its pillars firm.

    I guess the foundation of the world has pillars holding it up too?

    Of course, in defense Christians will try to claim that these verses are only metaphors or allegorical, and not to be taken literally. But why don’t they take all the verses of their cherished fundamental doctrines and do the same as well? How do they decide what is allegorical and what is literal? And why should we trust their judgment on that?

    The Earth is not motionless

    Psalms 104:5 The Earth is firmly fixed; it shall not be moved.

    1 Chronicles 16:30 Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.

    The Earth is moving constantly 24 hours a day in its path around the Sun!

    The moon is not a light

    Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and
    the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

    The moon is not a light. You can only see it glow only because of the sun's reflection off of it. During some of its phases, you can't even see it at all.

    Our sun is not the same age as the rest of the stars

    Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and
    the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

    Scientists have observed and dated many of the stars in the universe to be millions or even billions of years older than our sun.

    Stars are not little balls of light close to the Earth

    Revelation 6:12-14
    And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

    The Bible authors obviously thought that the stars were little balls of light that could fall to the Earth. They had no idea how big and how far away the stars actually are!

    Wind is not held in storehouses

    Psalms 135:7 He makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth; he sends lightning with the rain and brings out the wind from his storehouses.

    Anyone with even an elementary knowledge of meteorology or basic science can tell you that wind is not produced from “storehouses”!

    How can an inerrant book inspired by an all-knowing God make false scientific facts such as these?

    so are you going to ignore this post as well? it seems you just gloss over any post that makes you use your head.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    well the problem is that intelligent design is your belief.

    you were raised to believe that is the case. there is no evidence to support it. you are just fitting your belief around reality. it might not harm you but its certainly not a logically valid position.

  • robertallen1

    If you're a scientist you put science first and if there's a conflict, between the two, religion must take a back seat.

  • robertallen1

    But it sure can do a lot of harm when it is forced on science classes.

  • robertallen1

    You've outdone yourself, but one thing. I don't know if Stephen Hawking is the smartest man who ever lived, but he is certainly one of the major scientists of the 20-21st centuries. However, your point as to an intellectual dwarf like fender24 and those we've both encountered trying to go up against Dr. Hawking and peers is beyond well-taken.

  • dewflirt

    Adam, gods firstborn! If I remember rightly his soul was made on the first day, was the world then made as a garden for him?
    God then made lilith, his equal and opposite. A feisty mare and unbreakable. Imagine her slippery and luscious in the shade of that tree. Snake skin dress, cute lisp, poisoned fruit all over her hat like Carmen Miranda gone bad ;) What an education she must have been for Eve, I bet she couldn't get that apple down Adams throat fast enough! Silly boy undid himself with his own greed. Three times!

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    I haven't watched this documentary yet (and I will when I have the time). But having read some posts going back and forth, my 2 cents is that Atheism is not scientific any more than Theism is scientific. And in fact "Science" supports what some Theists and certainly Western Christian Theists have been saying all along; namely that the "God"/Creator is not a part of nature.

    The term "science" as I'm using it and as "Scientific" Atheists use it is actually Methodological Naturalism (which is only one aspect of the Sciences). Methodological Naturalism from the onset chose to ignore anything non-natural to make it more easy to find natural causes for nature. And look...everywhere Methodological Naturalism is applied to in attempting to find natural causes for nature it seems to have found natural causes for (and we're leaps and bounds ahead of mysticism for it...woot).

    But "science" (Methodological Naturalism) cannot really comment on the "God"/Creator...except to say that it has not nor is it currently looking for a "God"/Creator (because such a thing is not a natural cause and Methodological Naturalism is excluding all non-natural causes in its search for natural causes for nature) and that if there is such a "God"/creator such a thing has not been observed via Methodological Naturalism in the natural realities that Methodological Naturalism has examined thus far.

    And that is all Methodological Naturalism (aka "Science") can say about the "God"/Creator..."We have been looking for natural causes of nature and in our looking we obviously have been ignoring anything "God"/Creator related in order to help us more easily find natural causes for nature...oh by the way we've found natural causes for just about everything we've looked at and with all we've looked it we haven't accidentally discovered a "God"/Creator being, or Unicorn, or Godzilla, or Aliens, or Spaghetti monsters...etc etc...yes it's a bit laughable to say that in all our NOT looking for such things we haven't found them...but here's what we can reasonably conclude thus far; if such things were part of nature we'd probably have discovered them by now with how much of nature we've examining so far...not to say they don't exist...they might...we haven't examined all of nature yet...but it's a safe conclusion that if such things exist they're not a part of nature (not a part of the nature we know of and have examined so far at least)."

    Any conclusion beyond that is not Scientific (Methodological Naturalism) and more the realm of Religious Naturalism and Philosophy and one's own Ideologies (which are what Theism and Atheism are...Ideologies...not Science).

    I'm not championing Christianity or Theism. Nor am I championing Weak Atheism ("I'm not convinced there's a God") nor Strong Atheism ("There is no God and you should believe me that there isn't") nor Anti-Theism ("Religious types need to go"). I'm just championing clarification about "Science" (Methodological Naturalism) and what it has authority to comment on and what it doesn't.

    My apologies if this was way off topic for this documentary. I will watch it...just haven't had the time yet.

  • robertallen1

    Why not champion what you term weak atheism? Aside from antitheism, it's the most viable of the alternatives you've enunciated

  • Pysmythe

    On the 6th day, actually, but that's not really that important, or not as important (to me) as the fact that for the last 20 years or so I can't help imagining Lilith as looking an awful lot like Bebe Neuwirth...

    Actually, that isn't that important, either, lol.

    Slippery and luscious, on the other hand, has the surefire ring of one of those Great Eternal Truths. :)

  • fender24

    Robbertallen:
    "So just where is your evidence for design and a designer or is it all in your typical creationist argument?" observational evidence
    "Just how?"
    "So you thought you didn't need evidence" what i said
    "Just how?" below

    "You understand that BELIEF and KNOWLEDGE are two very different things? you cant say you know something and that you believe it. you dont KNOW that god exists. you believe it. and I dont KNOW god doesnt exist. but the fact that you dont KNOW god exists should lead you to at least be honest with yourself and question WHY you insist on believing it is true....dont you think?" Epicrurus I detect god indirectly through the observational evidence.

    "was a dead giveaway you know nothing of what you speak, you are using an "argument from ignorance" means nothing." Achems_Razor You're opinion.

    A skeptic or atheist is governed by two main principles: 1) all beliefs must be supported by observational evidence, and 2) beliefs that contradict observational evidence cannot be tolerated.
    hehe I have proven my claims with a simple worldview which is based upon observational evidence! . Don't throw up you're arms up in defense go test the claims! That is why this belief is so strong. The observational evidence actually leans toward the existence of God.

    The Bible describes an expanding universe model.

    Since our universe is characterized by cosmic expansion, it must have had a beginning. What, in nature can you think of that is simultaneously expanding and decelerating? An explosion. This was the first suggestion of what has come to be called the "Big Bang." Einstein did not like the implications of the Big Bang, which he thought implied the existence of a Creator.

    The data from cosmology shows that the universe had a beginning, when space, time, matter and energy exploded out from the cosmic event known as the Big Bang.
    At some point in the past, the universe was created from what has been called a singularity (or no volume). This event must require the existence of a creator, a supernatural God.
    The Big Bang implies a universe which is created, therefore the need for a creator

    Big Bang is evidence for intelligent design. So because we can observe God's creation u can detect God not directly but indirectly. A naturalistic cause for the origin of the universe cannot be confirmed observationally that is why that belief does not make sense to me. The prospect of finding a naturalistic cause for the origin of the universe is bleak at best, since the laws of physics indicate that we will never be able escape the bounds of our universe to even attempt to look for the cause of the universe.

    "I believe the evidence for God's existence comes primarily from the design of the universe."

    Conclusion: 1: My belief is supported by observational evidence
    2: my belief does not contradict observational evidence

  • Kateye70

    I'm just curious as to why you are conflating science and atheism? The terms describe two completely different things.

    Saying that atheism or agnosticism requires a scientific basis does not seem logical to me.

    The pursuit of science is unrelated to one's belief in a god or gods (theism). One can be a scientist regardless of religious outlook.

    Nor does one's belief or disbelief in a deity (theism, a-theism) have any bearing on one's pursuit of science, education, the arts, business, parenting, driving a car or any other human activity. All of the pursuits of daily life can be conducted regardless of one's religious outlook.

    I came to the conclusion that the existence of a god or gods is irrelevant to my life (my new favorite term, "apatheism").

    It took no scientific study whatsoever. All it took was a realistic look at the world around me and a study of the world's religions.

    IMHO it isn't science that creates atheists and agnostics, it's religion.

  • robertallen1

    So in response to the thoughtful and knowledgable posts of Achem, Epicurus and others, we are treated to a replay of your threadbare beliefs coupled with ejaculations of your universal ignorance, the whole of your post culminating in two inane, self-serving conclusions.

    You have deluded yourself into believing that piling assertion upon assertion somehow constitutes proof when in reality it doesn't even come close. I really wonder if you're an adult.

    I doubt that anyone on this thread is going to be swayed by someone as dense, obtuse and generally uneducated as you. So why you're wasting your time posting your iterative walls of drivel here defies explanation.

  • robertallen1

    That's the problem with religees: they try to tie their religion into everything including diarrhea.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Because if one wants to be a Logical Atheist/Anti-Theist it's important to base ones Atheism/Anti-Theism on real evidence above and beyond an "Appeal to Authority"...especially when the "Authority" appealed to does not even have the authority to fully comment (besides saying that what Theists have been claiming all along is evidentially accurate: "God appears to be separate and not a part of nature").

    Hence my championing of Clarification (on the Authority used by Logical Atheists).

  • robertallen1

    You're not making any sense. There is nothing the matter with stating that I don't believe in a supreme being because no adequate proof has been offered for the existence of one.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    There's no fallacy in claiming that you don't believe in a supreme being robertallen1.

    But there is a fallacy in claiming that, "no adequate proof has been offered for the existence of a supreme being."

    It is a fallacy because this claim..."No adequate proof has been offered for the existence of a supreme being"...has not been proven.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Kateye70: You and I agree. Atheism is not scientific and neither is Theism. Science is virtually mute on the matter of "god" (except to say it appears "god" is not a part of nature).

  • robertallen1

    That's just silly. I don't have to prove that no adequate scientific proof has been offered for the existence of a supreme being. The person asserting that a supreme being exists is responsible for providing the proof. So calling my statement a fallacy is riduculous.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    The Burden of proof applies to any claim you make robertallen1. Unless you want to Appeal To Ignorance. You've claimed no adequate proof has been offered. Your claim is a claim of absence. Demonstrate that you searched, that you did not find proof, and that your evidence of absence is not absence of evidence. Otherwise be comfortable with having Appealed To Ignorance.

  • awful_truth

    @TopDocRocks. Your efforts are inspiring, but are futile regarding little bob. I have provided evidence to him, Achems razor, etc regarding the spirituality of Einstein, while providing references to his own hand written documents. They continuously request proof, and when you provide it, they ignore it, and quote wikipedia like it is the 'ten commandments'.
    The bottom line is there will never be proof regarding issues of faith,(that is why they call it belief) and science is incapable of answering the really interesting questions, that lie beyond the realm of the tactile. Since I believe in 'everything' I find it amusing to be able to debate with both the theists, and athiests, who have both restricted themselves to limited thinking!

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    It seems you don't make any difference between unfalsifiable and falsifiable claims.

    If I make an unfalsifiable claim how on Earth you expect someone to prove me wrong? It simply can't. Never. If I make a claim that can be tested and examined the situation is different.

    There is infinite number of unfalsifiable claims (God's existence is among them): unicorns, snow white, lizard aliens, spaghetti monster, etc. There is no way of testing them and proving them wrong. Does that mean we should believe all those claims? Of course not.

    Do you believe in all those claims? Do you believe in the existence of celestial teapot? Of course you don't, because of the lack of evidence and the very nature of the argument which is unfalsifiable.

    Therefore the burden of proof is on you to prove the existence of your God. In the meantime lot of people will not believe you.

  • Kateye70

    Then why were you conflating science and theism/atheism?

  • robertallen1

    I also don't believe in fairies because no adequate proof has been offered. Do I have to prove that there is no adequate proof? As idiotic as evidence of absence . . .

  • robertallen1

    Tell the truth. What you have stated about Einstein is a bald-faced lie and several posters who are far more knowledgable than you have provided the proof.

    I wouldn't dignify what you do to the level of thinking.

    P.S. My name is Robert.

  • Achems_Razor

    Limited thinking? ha, that is a good one. The only thing that is etched in stone and limited thinking is the religee's insistence that the cosmos and everything in it was made (by some invisible gods) for us little tiny carbon units that have only been here as long as a flicker, as Carl Sagan said "we all are like water vapour on a glass, one swipe and we are gone" or as Feynman said "we are just too small to fathom the vastness and sheer size of the cosmos." (The sheer arrogance)!!

    And right away the religee's run to use Einstein as an argument from authority. That has all been refuted numerous times.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    The possible existence of a Creator of our Universe is falsifiable. And based on what definitions are agreed upon on what is considered a "God", so could said concept of such a "God" (be falsifiable).

    But I am not claiming there is a God. I was asked why I don't claim there is No God. The exact question was, "Why not champion what you term weak atheism?" And I've answered that (because it's best we first champion the clarity that "science" should be avoided as an authority on "God" topics if we are to be seen as Logical Atheists).

    The response to that was, "There is nothing the matter with stating that I don't believe in a supreme being because no adequate proof has been offered for the existence of one." To which I am pointing out that yes such a claim is a "matter" because such a claim is shifting the burden of proof, appealing to ignorance, and claiming that the absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

    I'm not claiming there is or is not a God/Creator.

    As I've said before, I'm not championing Christianity or Religion or Weak Atheism ("I'm currently convinced based on the evidence I've seen so far that there is no 'god'") or Strong Atheism ("There is no 'god' and you should believe me that there isn't") or Anti-Theism ("Religous types need to go"). I've been consistent in championing Clarity.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    How the existence of a Creator of our Universe is falsifiable? That is the original root and error in your whole reasoning.

    If your God was falsifiable it wouldn't be God in the first place. The word God would lose its meaning since it will be quantified. And only then your argument can become semi valid, because anyone asking you to prove your God existence would be using some sort of shifting the burden argument, since it can look up the evidence for himself and find out that your God is true. However, on our path to make God falsifiable we actually lost God, therefore your argument fails.

    On another comment you presented an analogy with a dog's existence in a room (which is falsifiable), thus revealing the root of your error.

    If your reasoning is valid then you would have to agree that all possible imaginary beings are in fact possibly true (Unicorns on Titan, Spaghetti Monsters on Mars, etc). And if you state that any of those don't exist because they're unfalsifiable, then (according to you) I would have the right to say that you're shifting the burden of proof, appealing to ignorance, and claiming that the absence of evidence is evidence of absence. That is simply illogical and not true.

    P.S. You're not championing clarity. You're only presenting fallacious logic.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Yes you do. You need to show the evidence for your claim that there is an absence of evidence of fairies. So that the absence of evidence of fairies (you looked for evidence of fairies but couldn't find any) is actually evidence of absence (and so therefore there really are no fairies) and not merely absence of evidence (but you might have missed something in your searching and calculations).

    The context here is "Burden of Proof" (not scientific proof...I'd be really impressed of someone were to use the comments section of TDF to scientifically prove something).

    You aren't enlightening anyone if you simply expect others to take your word for it that there is no evidence of fairies. And I know you know this as I haven't seen you appeal to yourself as an authority on anything yet with a "trust me" style claim.

    A good reason it's important for you to show how and why you are convinced that there is no evidence of fairies is not just so your claim has more validity but also so that others can connect the dots for themselves (like you have).

    And that is the best you can do...simply show why you are convinced that there is no evidence. To try and claim you have a grasp of truth above and beyond what you're currently convinced of (that there is no evidence of fairies) is to cross over into actual scientific research on the subject and to go through the entire scientific process of searching for evidence of fairies (and I highly doubt anyone is using the comments section of TDF to do that).

    Just because it is difficult to prove (philosophically scientifically or otherwise) that there is an absence of evidence (because absence of evidence doesn't automatically mean evidence of absence) doesn't mean you are free from the burden of proof when you claim there is absence of evidence.

    And you know this. Which is why you back up your claim of "absence of evidence" instead of simply expecting us to take your word for it.

    Unfortunately appealing to ignorance with, "Well prove that fairies exist if I'm wrong" doesn't actually back up your claim that there is an absence of evidence for fairies.

    What would back up your claim (that there is evidence of an absence of evidence) is expressing what you've done to look for said evidence, that you didn't find any evidence (with your evidence of such a "finding" of no findings), and why your findings are not merely an absence of evidence (demonstrate that you've covered all the angles and haven't missed anything).

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    I'm not conflating science and theism/atheism. Logical Atheists are conflating science and atheism. A Logical Atheist claim like "There's no [scientific] evidence of a God" is a statement that conflates science and atheism. Science has no comment on the matter of "God" (except to comment that if there is a "God"/Creator such a being is probably not a part of nature as scientists can't seem to find such a being in the nature humans have explored so far...not a very scientific comment that but it's what science can at least say...and pretty much all it can say).

  • Kateye70

    In your first post, you said:

    "I haven't watched this documentary yet...[but] my 2 cents is that Atheism is not scientific any more than Theism is scientific."

    So,

    1. You haven't watched the documentary yet and therefore have no knowledge of its content.

    2. You are claiming that both belief and lack of belief in a deity are unscientific in nature.

    Is that the TL;DR?

  • Kateye70

    What is it called if I say that I see no practical evidence of a deity?

  • Kateye70

    Aren't certain theists also conflating science and theism by claiming supernatural causes for natural phenomena as science?

  • Achems_Razor

    @TopDocRocks:

    lol, For chr1st sakes! what is with all the double talk, as the still great Jack Nicholson said,..."people that talk in metaphors oughta' shampoo my crotch"!

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    All those creatures including God are falsifiable. You're just making the obvious point that falsifying the existence of such things is really really hard (by asking "how?"...searching all of space and time is how...obviously very difficult to do...now...but not impossible...forever). Science doesn't say such things do not exist because Science knows that if it were to say such things do not exist it would have the burden of proof on itself to falsify the existence of such things (and again that is currently well nigh impossible for science to do right now given our understanding of how big and unknown time and space is to science right now).

    So Science only says what does exist based on what science has encountered (although even the concept of existence is not entirely a settled debate within science).

    The only thing science can comment on about such creatures...that science has not encountered so far...is that, "Science has not found any such things thus far in all that science has observed so far and that if such things exist either they exist in an area of space/time that science has not discovered yet or they are not a part of space/time as we currently understand space/time."

    And that is my point about Science. That it can only claim that if there is such a thing as a "God"/Creator such a being is either in a region of space/time that we haven't observed yet or is not a part of space/time as we understand space/time.

    Neither of these prove God exists (or does not exist).

    And it's interesting to me that the comment of science that, "If a God/Creator exists and we don't discover such a being in our space/time then such a being is probably not a part of our space/time" is the same claim as Theists ("God is and never was a part of nature").

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    Do you actually read what you write?

    "You need to show the evidence for your claim that there is an absence of evidence of fairies."

    The fact that there is no evidence is the very evidence for absence of evidence.

    You're actually looking for evidence for the absence of evidence? What about the absence of evidence for the absence of evidence? Or evidence for the absence of evidence for the very absence of evidence? We can go even further with this Reductio ad absurdum.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    1. Show me how God and those creatures are falsifiable? Presuming you know what falsifiable means.

    2. We are living now, and we are discussing about the present moment. At this moment God and all the imaginary beings are unfalsifiable. In future they may be falsifiable but as I can recall we are not talking about the future. This was another attempt of yours to stretch the argument even further.

    3. Science won't comment on God and those creatures because at this moment they're not falsifiable, which means not testable and not able to be proven false, and are therefor outside of the scope of experimental science. Most atheist prefer not to believe in things which are outside of the scope of science. It is simple as that.

  • robertallen1

    And just how does one look for fairies? Do you believe in fairies? If yes, produce your evidence for their existence, if not, tell me why not and produce your evidence for their non-existence. The claim is unfalsifiable and that's that.

    As Vlatko clearly stated, under your logic, including the specious contention that absence of evidence does not indicate evidence of absence (what about frogs and warts?), every kooky idea that's ever been thought up would have to be given serious consideration.

  • robertallen1

    Someone asserting disbelief in a supreme being because there has been no satisfactory scientific evidence uncovered so far to convince him of the existence of one is clearly implying that if compelling evidence is uncovered, he will reconsider his position; hence, he is not making a categorial denial. The only claim is lack of evidence, an unfalsifiable statement which, contrary to your "logic," does not need to be proved because it can't.

  • robertallen1

    Great artistry (i.e., painting, music, literature) is outside the scope of science and yet atheists and theists alike believe in it. In fact the whole realm of the subjective is by nature outside the realm of science. The problem comes when creationists and the like try to pass off the subjective as objective.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    No it's not a fact Vlatko. What you just said there, "the fact that there is no evidence is the very evidence for absence of evidence" is a fallacy. Here is the fact about absence of evidence...allow me to quote Wikipedia (a common source that we can all easily find); "Evidence of absence is evidence of any kind that suggests something is missing or that it does not exist. Evidence of this kind is not to be confused with mere ignorance, and the traditional axiom warns that 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.' "

    In order to progress out of the fallacy "The absence of evidence for Fairies is the evidence that Fairies are absent" it must be shown that and how one has looked for Fairies; that and how one has looked for evidence; that and how one has not found evidence, and that and how one has avoided as much as possible the fallacy "absence of evidence is evidence of absence."

    Robertallen1 has not yet communicated to us in this conversation that he has or how he has looked for evidence of Fairies. Therefore he still stands guilty of the fallacy "absence of evidence is evidence of absence." He has also used as evidence for his claim the fallacy of "Appeal to Ignorance" in requesting me to prove him wrong if in fact he is wrong. That's two fallacies.

    If Fairies really do not exist one must show how they really do not exist. And not commit the double fallacy of "there's no evidence of fairies...prove there's fairies if I'm wrong."

    If there really is no evidence of Fairies one should be able to easily show that there is no evidence.

    No?

    The answer is no.

    It isn't easy to show that there is no evidence of Fairies. This is very difficult to do. But yet all too often we've become lazy and instead of doing our homework on how to communicate something that doesn't exist really doesn't exist, we instead switch the burden of proof with an appeal to ignorance and ask others to prove us wrong. Everyone knows that is an easier task...showing evidence of something vs showing evidence that something isn't there (and certainly it's easier for us who believe there is no evidence of Fairies). But homework or none...the burden of proof still lies with us to show that there is no evidence (if we go about making such a claim). This is why Scientists don't go about trying to prove things don't exist vs proving that things that do exist actually exist...it's just way to much energy and time to go about proving things don't exist.

    It can be done though. And my challenge to Robetallen1 and anyone who wants to take up this challenge is to show how there really is no evidence of Fairies. Let's establish to all readers how to communicate that we have avoided the fallacy "absence of evidence is evidence of absence."

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Robertallen1 I'm not the one claiming Fairies do not exist. If you don't know how to show that there is no evidence that Fairies exist it's rude to ask me to believe your claim that there is no evidence and then ask me to help you demonstrate your point. You made the point in the first place (there is no evidence Fairies exist). Demonstrate your own point. Don't expect me to.

    And do you know why we don't give every kooky idea that's ever been thought up serious consideration? Because we've established rules on how to avoid fallacies. And because we've taken the time to examine, understand, and explain that which is real. This helps us compare "kooky" ideas to reality, avoid fallacies in our judgement of those ideas, and more accurately weigh them against actual facts.

    Which is why I'm trying to have us all be on the same page, and understand that science (methodological naturalism) is a bad authority to refer to regarding the subject of "God"/Creator (or on such a beings absence).

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    "1. Show me how God and those creatures are falsifiable? Presuming you know what falsifiable means."

    Look for them in all space/time. Fail to find them. Demonstrate you've looked and could not find them. That's how they are Falsifiable. This is well nigh impossible during our lifetime due to how vast and mysterious space/time is to us right now [This also does not mean they do not exist...only that they do not exist in the space/time that we looked for them in].

    "2. We are living now, and we are discussing about the present moment. At this moment God and all the imaginary beings are unfalsifiable. In future they may be falsifiable but as I can recall we are not talking about the future. This was another attempt of yours to stretch the argument even further."

    No they are not. They are only unfalsifiable if one limits oneself to Methodological Naturalism. If one opens oneself up to Religious Naturalism, Philosophy, Psychology, Mathematics, Art, Evidentialism and Experientialism one can falsify God for oneself...subjective falsification. If one desires objective and Methodological Naturalism falsification of God...that you can go about convincing your neighbors with...you most likely will not find such falsification in your lifetime.

    Because it appears, as evidenced by the objective observations of Methodological Naturalism and via the subjective claims of Deists/Theists, that God is not a part of nature.

    "3. Science won't comment on God and those creatures because at this moment they're not falsifiable, which means not testable and not able to be proven false, and are therefor outside of the scope of experimental science. Most atheist prefer not to believe in things which are outside of the scope of science. It is simple as that."

    Correct...science will not comment on God. So let's not use science as our authority when we discuss theology (which is what the atheism/theism discussion is). Robertallen1 has a good point about Atheists believing in things which are outside of the scope of science (Thank...god?...else we'd all be like Spok...or Data **the song "You're as cold as ice" is floating through my brain**).

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Let's not be lazy. We can do better than go around saying "I know that my point can't be proven true but I'll claim it as true anyways and ask you to prove me otherwise because that is possible for you to do (because...again...it's impossible for me to prove my point..that I'm claiming is true...that I can't prove...). "

    I'm sure if we sat down and thought about it and did some digging we'd be able to actually say "Here the evidence I've found that has proven to me thus far that there is no evidence of God...and while I'm at it I'll demonstrate that I'm avoiding the fallacy of 'the absence of evidence is the evidence of absence'...and all other fallacies for that matter."

  • over the edge

    TopDocRocks
    please see "Russels Teapot". there are too many claims made to prove their absence. the burden of proof does lay with the person making the positive claim. if we have to prove absence of evidence for every claim put forward we would never progress. i dismiss all gods due to no demonstrable evidence being shown to me of their existence. if i were to approach my dismissal on the premise you suggest i would have to look for this evidence of absence for all 28 000 000 gods that have been worshiped and i would die before proving all claims false and therefore never make a decision. but i am curious what is your position of all 28 000 000 gods? is there one you profess to be true? i get the feeling from your posts that you do believe in one but know that you cannot prove it. so you shamelessly try to shift the burden you would rightfully own. of course that is just an opinion and i am open to be told i am wrong.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    You didn't show how God or Fairies are falsifiable at this moment. That is the starting point of you assumptions, which is fallacious. If something is not falsifiable, there is no way to gather evidence for its existence or non existence anyway, therefore your argument "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is not usable.

    You're turning upside down the argument of shifting the burden of proof. Just double-shift it and hope to get away with it. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. It doesn't because I don't originally make the claim the Fairies don't exist. Don't forget that the original claim is that they do exist and I simply don't agree with that because at this moment they're not falsifiable, and therefore no evidence can be extrapolated for their existence.

    As I've said your main error is that you assume that Fairies are falsifiable, but they're not. You've tried to remedy that with one false analogy about a non existent dog in a room, and when that failed you've tried to escape by saying that Fairies might be falsifiable in future. Plus the Reductio ad absurdum fallacy if your opponent just decides to triple-shift the burden of proof.

    Sorry but those are massive errors. As if you struggle to reinvent the basic logic.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    1. Falsifiable means falsifiable at this moment with the means we have now. By your reasoning all possibilities are falsifiable at one point of time. But we are talking about the now, with the means we have now. You're not being serious.

    2. Subjective falsification? You're not being serious again. Falsifiability means that the hypothesis is testable by empirical experiment and thus conforms to the standards of scientific method.

    3. Most atheist prefer NOT TO believe in things which are outside of the scope of science. That means they don't believe in unfalsifiable imaginary beings, which are not testable and out of scientific method.

  • robertallen1

    So if these are the standards you've set up for yourself, let's apply them to you. Once again, do you believe in fairies? If you do, provide your proof. If you don't, state why and then provide your proof, making sure to furnish a detailed narrative of your search for fairies, how the search was conducted and what it turned up--remember absence of evidence--

    I, on the other hand, have merely stated that I do not believe in fairies because no convincing evidence has been presented, the implication being that in light of such evidence, I am willing to reconsider my position. What seems beyond your comprehension is that I'm not making a definite assertion. In short, I don't have to look for evidence to prove something does not exist because, as Vlatko has tried repeatedly to point out to you, it's not only impossible, but unfalsifiable and untestable.

    As has been pointed out to you by a number of posters, your position is not only untenable, it's inane.

  • robertallen1

    Don't try to weasel out of it. I'm merely demanding that you practice what you preach. Now once again, do you believe in fairies. If so, provide your proof. If not, describe your search and the results thereof.

    Is the existence of fairies a kooky idea or isn't it? If not, how do we prove their existence, if it is, what logical fallacy militates against it.

    I've asked you this before and received no answer: If science (methodical naturalism) is a bad authority when it comes to the existence of a supreme being, what authority should be used.--again, don't try to weasel out of it.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    And yes you are wrong. =D Any claim is a positive claim. Which is why the burden of proof is on someone who claims "there is no evidence." The statement, "There is no evidence" is a positive claim (one is claiming what "is" when one uses language like, "There IS no...). And just because it is a claim about absence does not mean it is not a positive claim. And just because it's harder to prove than "There is evidence" and more difficult because it has to avoid the fallacy "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" does not mean one is free from the burden of proof if one claims "there is no evidence." One can be more intelligent in how they make claims about the absence of evidence in order to be able to meet the burden of proof. And this is quite possible with a little more time and effort put into the communication process.

    The question about the many gods is not an Atheist question. It's a Theist question. When I discuss Atheism I am a Deist [Over The Edge can you please tell everyone here what is the difference between a Deist and a Theist?]. As such I am speaking about the Creator Being. I also lean on Apophatic Theology when I approach the topic of the Creator Being as it's more gracious and honest to our limited understanding of the divine.

    But no, to comment on the many gods is to make mute Atheism (because if there are many gods or one god Atheism is wrong either way).

    As to proving there is a God such a notion is extremely rude and invasive. Not even the Creator Being goes about proving himself/herself/itself/themselves to people (that I've observed). And even if one were to aks the Creator Being to prove himself/herself/itself/themselves one may not be given such proof (such an act would have you actually know that the Creator Being as real...and who says the Creator Being even wants you to know him/her/it/them in the first place?). It is not for Humans to go about proving that the Creator Being exists. It is up to the Creator Being to prove such a thing (if he/she/it/they want to). That is my Deist response.

    My Theist response is similar. It's not for humans to go about proving God exists. God can prove God exists all by himself/herself/itself/themselves. And it appears that is how it's supposed to be. No "Hey I'm God! You HAVE to believe in me now!" self aggrandising bullying crap. I'm currently convinced that if you really want proof, you can by all means just go and ask God for it. But be careful...sometimes one gets what they ask for. That is my Theist response.

    My Atheist response is also similar. Asking a human to prove God exists is dumb. If God doesn't exist you won't get proof. And if God does exist, you're asking the wrong person.

    My Anti-Theist response is a bit different. Who cares about proving God exists. Even if God is proven to exist it doesn't mean I have to like God or interact with God.

    But yeah...in Atheist/Theist conversations I'm more of a Deist.

    What are you Over The Edge? Deist? Theist? Atheist? Ant-Theist? Agnostic?

  • robertallen1

    I also made a distinction between the objective (scientific) and the subjective which you apparently missed.

    How can "religious naturalism," whatever that is, philosophy (which never proved anything), psychology, mathematics and art even begin to prove or disprove the existence of a supreme being? Only science (methodical naturalism as you call it) can do this objectively--what else is there?

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    A deist... I wonder why I'm not surprised.

  • robertallen1

    Haven't heard from you for a while.

    Your conjecture that TopDocRocks believes in some supreme being which he can't prove seems on point. That's why I asked this poster for his position with respect to the existence of fairies--if he believes in them, provide the proof on which he bases his belief and if he doesn't, furnish a detailed log of his search and the results thereof. What's good for the goose is good for the goosed. For some reason, I'm having trouble eliciting a direct response.

    P.S. How are you getting on with the Ehrman volume?

  • robertallen1

    "As to proving there is a God such a notion is extremely rude and invasive." What does proving the existence/non-existence of a God have to do with rudeness and what does it invade? And just what makes you think you know any more about a "Creator/Being" than anyone else, apophatic theory which is somehow more gracious (whatever this word is supposed to mean in this context) and honest to our supposedly limited understanding of the divine? As a matter of fact, can you even prove the existence of the divine--and don't even think of asserting that demanding proof is somehow inappropriate or any other such nonsense. And who do you think you are telling us that we are not to go about proving that a Creator/Being Exists?

    "Asking a human to prove God exists is dumb. If God doesn't exist you won't get proof. And if God does exist, you're asking the wrong person." Where is the logic in this? As a matter of fact who is the "wrong person?"

  • over the edge

    TopDocRocks
    i will answer your questions as soon as you answer mine. can you?

  • awful_truth

    Bald faced lie? Once again. A child in the sixth grade in a Sunday School in New York City, with the encouragement of her teacher, wrote to Einstein in Princeton on 19 January I936 asking him whether scientists pray, and if so what they pray for. Einstein replied as follows on 24 January 1936:
    Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the actions of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a supernatural Being.
    However, it must be admitted that our actual knowledge of these laws is only imperfect and fragmentary, so that, actually, the belief in the existence of basic all-embracing laws in Nature also rests on a sort of faith. All the same this faith has been largely justified so far by the success of scientific research.
    But, on the other hand, every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe -- a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive.
    This is direct evidence to what Einstein believed. The last sentence of Einstein's letter is how you perceive all who have 'faith'. The awful truth is you are rude, and obnoxious towards anyone who doesn't think like you, and the only reason you get away with it, is because the administrator, and one of the moderators allow you to continue this behaviour.
    You call a provable letter from Einstein a bald faced lie, because you can't handle the truth. Furthermore, I will keep calling you little bob until you learn to be civil with others who have as much right as you to express their opinion, as you do. If you can't be pleasant with others, don't expect it in return.

  • robertallen1

    Your mischaracterization Einstein as a theist has been debunked over and over again and the last sentence that you quoted does not stand for what you say it does, i.e., a feeling of religiosity is not the same as a religion or even a belief in a higher being. Time and time again, Einstein stated that he had no personal god. Even assuming that Einstein were a theist, what does it show--nothing except another asinine argument on your part from authority

    P.S. Once again, my name is Robert, whether you like it or not, and as long as you continue to spew forth your religious garbage, your factual distortions and your ignorance of science, I will continue to slam you.

  • awful_truth

    @Roberttallen1
    Bald faced lie? Once again. A child in the sixth grade in a Sunday School in New York City, with the encouragement of her teacher, wrote to Einstein in Princeton on 19 January I936 asking him whether scientists pray, and if so what they pray for. Einstein replied as follows on 24 January 1936:
    Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the actions of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a supernatural Being.
    However, it must be admitted that our actual knowledge of these laws is only imperfect and fragmentary, so that, actually, the belief in the existence of basic all-embracing laws in Nature also rests on a sort of faith. All the same this faith has been largely justified so far by the success of scientific research.
    But, on the other hand, every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe -- a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive.
    This is direct evidence to what Einstein believed. The last sentence of Einstein's letter is how you perceive all who have 'faith'. The awful truth is you are rude, and obnoxious towards anyone who doesn't think like you, and the only reason you get away with it, is because the administrator, and one of the moderators allow you to continue this behaviour.
    You call a provable letter from Einstein a bald faced lie, because you can't handle the truth. Furthermore, I will keep calling you little bob until you learn to be civil with others who have as much right as you to express their opinion, as you do. If you can't be pleasant with others, don't expect it in return.

  • awful_truth

    "But, on the other hand, every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe -- a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble."
    1) A "spirit vastly superior to that of man" is a belief in a higher being. (how can you deny this?)
    2) Having faith, or spirituality has nothing to do with a 'personal god'. (your conclusion) Why? look berlow.
    3) "science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive." (this is in reference to people like you) who only perceive religion on the most simplistic level) Einstein's word "naive" is a bullseye.
    4) Your words - assuming that Einstein were a theist, what does it show-- is an admission that you are wrong regarding referenced evidence, which is where you typically change the subject, and resort to misdirection, and insults.
    5) A quote from Einstein is not me, or anyone spewing religious garbage, but is your denial of what I have been telling you all along.
    6) "factual distortions", is precisely what you just did above, and the "ignorance of science" is a continuation of this distortion, because no statement of science was mentioned to begin with, so here is the science.
    7) relativity - (multiple perceptions, all different, yet correct at the same time)
    8) Quantum mechanics - (if there are 1000 possibilites, all possibilites play themselves out)

    Conclusion: There is no right, or wrong, only choices, and for every decision we all make, there is an endless number of each of us that co-exists, living out the choices we didn't choose here. Since nothing is perfect, (broken symmetry) there only exists infinite potentiality.
    (truth in everything) Since you don't understand this, your thinking is 1 dimensional, and judgemental.
    The awful truth is, the only thing you are capable of slamming, is your head against the very wall of ignorance your built.
    (all bark, no bite)

  • awful_truth

    At Achems_Razor:
    Yes, refuted by you numeruous times. Out of curiosity, is your name Achems_Razor in reference to Occums_Razor, based on William of Ocham? (1285 to 1349) I just ask, wondering if you are aware of where this term originates. According to Wikipedia (your favorite source)
    ' His nearest pronouncement seems to be Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate [Plurality must never be posited without necessity], which occurs in his THEOLOGICAL work on the 'Sentences of Peter Lombard'. furthermore;
    ' Indeed, Ockham's contribution seems to be to restrict the operation of this principle in matters pertaining to MIRACLES OF GOD'S POWER: so, in the Eucharist, a plurality of miracles is possible, simply because it pleases God.
    Considering the origins, and your revulsion to religion,(some of which I completely agree with) perhaps you may want to change your handle, to avoid any self contradiction. (just a suggestion, no insult intended)

  • robertallen1

    "It was, of course, a lie what you heard about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this, but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as science can reveal it." 1954

    "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable but still prmitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." Letter to Eric Gutkind 1954.

    Both of these quotes are 18 years later than yours. I wonder why you didn't provide them. Another example of your deceit.

    You obviously have a problem reading. The phrase, "assuming that" is provisional or hypothetical, hence not an admission of anything or any sort. Another example of your deceit.

    I am not the only one who has highlighted your attempts at deceit and your general ignorance of science, especially your attempts to abase it to the level of religion and the procrusteanism you employ in those attempts. You have been corrected so many times by those more knowledgeable than you that it's pathetic.

  • awful_truth

    Hilarious how you repeat the same quote over and over, when I have provided so much more. I acknowledge the quotes you raise regarding Einstein, unlike you who call it 'bald faced lies' when statements are raised that don't agree with your ideaology. With that said, you continue to dodge the logic regarding what the science implies. (relativity, and quantum mechanics) Perhaps you should apply for a job at FOX news. As with you, they too repeat nonsense over and over, with the 'belief' that if you say it enough times, it somehow becomes fact, and everyone will believe it. (propaganda)
    Since you have taken the same page out of the Joseph Goebels mindset, nothing you say surprises me, and exposes your limited knowledge regarding Einstein to anyone who actually knows anything regarding the man. For your own sake, you should hope that anyone who reads what you write doesn't make the same mistake, and decide who you are, and what you stand for, based upon 1, or 2 statements.
    The American election (debates) relies on the same minutia, where people make judgements based upon singular statements.
    Ultimately, your position is one of sloth, where it is easier, than actually researching to find out what you don't know, and rely on others of similiar thinking for support.

  • robertallen1

    You have no idea what science implies--and from the comments of other posters, no one here is fooled by your lack of knowledge, especially regarding Einstein, and your amateur attempts at deception. As usual, you've written a wall of nothing, but it's your time.

  • awful_truth

    I didn't question the premise of what Ochams Razor stood for. (definition) I was just curious if you knew the origin (theological) of where it came from. I apologize if it brought to light something you would find uncomfortable, or contradictory, but isn't the point of blogging to raise awareness, and exchange valid information? (besides, you call me a religee, when I haven't made any claim of affiliation with any religious denomination, because I don't have one)
    My handle (awful_truth) is chosen because I believe in the truth of everything (infinite potentiality) where reality is only choices. Whether anyone agree with one another on anything is irrelevant; the fact that everything imagined and chosen exists is undeniable, whether anyone likes it or not! (ergo the awful truth!)

  • robertallen1

    Claiming that something is undeniable is nowhere near proof. So how about justifying your statement that " . . . everything imagined and chosen [whatever this word means in this context] exists."

  • Achems_Razor

    Your post is condescending, do not display a patronizingly superior attitude towards me or others.

    You portray yourself as one that is all knowing, (infinite potentiality)? explain what that is with sources please. And you are banding quantum mechanics about as if you know about such, when nobody on the planet knows much about QM. Or put it this way if you think you know quantum mechanics, then you know nothing about quantum mechanics.

    All you are doing is displaying your arrogance.

  • awful_truth

    1) On April 24, 1929, Rabbi Herbert Goldstein of New York dialed Einstein to inquire, “Do you believe in God?” (Sommerfield, 1949,103), Einstein’s return message was “ I believe in Spinoza’s God who concerns himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings , I can not accept any concept of God based on the fear of life or the fear of death or blind faith.
    2) Albert Einstein's book, (The World as I See It)
    "The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who knows it not and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle. It was the experience of mystery even if mixed with fear - that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man".
    3) Einstein response (1936)
    "every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe -- a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive". (Take note Robertalllen1)
    4)Einstein-Neils Bohr
    God doesn’t play dice with the universe,” Einstein once remarked on the new science of quantum mechanics in one of his lifelong debates with Neils Bohr. On another occasion he said of science and religion, “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

    This is definitive proof that Einstien believed in god, just not a traditional deity(s). (christian, islam, pagan, etc) For Robertallen1, this does not compute, because he has lumped all religious views into a personal god, (simple minded thinking) which he has stated repeatedly, and all the diversions, distractions, and insults does not change the facts, which are so clearly stated. If anyone doubts the validity of what I have expressed, don't take my word for it, research it yourself. This requires effort, unlike those who only search for that which supports their own pre-conceived notion. Since I have a similiar view to that of Einstein, I understand his position, and find myself with the same dilemma he had. Trying to open people's minds to a road far less travelled, but infinitely more rewarding.

  • robertallen1

    Your second and third quotes support Einstein's being a theist only if one agrees with your distorted interpretation of the word spirit to mean god and the word religion to connote traditional theism.

    Several posters have apprised you of the background behind the Einstein-Bohr quote which in your efforts at distortion, you've chosen to ignore.

    The two quotes I cited were both from 1954, much later than any of yours and it's particularly dishonest of you not to have included them, just as it is also dishonest of you not to have included this one from a letter to M. Berkowitz in 1950 (again much later than anything you have offered), "My position concerning God is that of AN AGNOSTIC. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and enoblement of life does not need the idea of a lawgiver who works on the basis of reward and punishment. (emphasis added)."

    One way or the other, Einstein's theological beliefs are as valid as anyone else's and hence irrelevant to the existence or non-existence of a supreme being. So your quotes from authority prove nothing of any substance. I only wonder why you are so obsessed with demonstrating Einstein to be a theist.

  • over the edge

    awful_truth
    while i disagree with you that Einstein believed in a god what difference would it make if i conceded that argument to you? Newton was an Alchemist and a great scientist does that make Alchemy true? what actual evidence do you have for this god? who/what is this god? i can show you great/intelligent people of all faiths or no faith at all. what does that prove? do you have any actual proof or is a debatable at best argument from authority all you have?

  • awful_truth

    @over the edge: The only reason I raised the issue is because the documentary states that Einstein was an athiest. (wrong) For Einstein to state that he believes in 'Spinoza'a god', and some of you still dismiss what he said, just blows me away. I didn't say Einstein believed in a personal god, which Robertallen is looped about. I didn't say that I believe in a personal god, (I don't) yet Achem, and Robertallen1 call me a religee. (talk about leaps of assumption) It is the makers of these documentaries that are attempting to justify their position with the name of a man, who didn't believe what they believe, and several of the bloggers here are supporting the same action.
    All any of this proves is that even intelligent people can be so blinded by their own bias, they dismiss everything that follows the initial thought. I tried to express that Einstein's own preconceived notion about his own belief in God, prevented even him from accepting quantum mechanics, the very thing that his own theories brought about. This not just my twist on things, it is obvious to anyone who has truly studied the man. The fact that I tried to share this information with others, has been met with insults, and indignation.
    So, I will leave you with this question. Is fighting good, or bad? As a mixed martial artist for over 30 years, I can tell you that it is neither. It is what motivates one to fight, that determines 'the value' of the action. Everything in life is like this. In fact, E=MC2 was a discription of the universe, not a prescription for a bomb. That is the duality of the nature of life, and the awful truth is, any belief system has value if it places people on a path that is in everyone's best interests. The second you dismiss the 'potential value' in anything, you remove the possibility of what it has to offer. (including spirituality) Something to think about! Live long, and prosper over the edge.

  • over the edge

    awful_truth
    what Achem, and Robertallen1 or other bloggers state is not up to me to defend or comment on they are more than capable of defending themselves. not that you said it was my responsibility but that part of your post i will ignore and i just wanted you to know why. all i was getting at was that your posts appear to me as a argument from authority and that carries no weight with me. i do not "dismiss the 'potential value' in anything, you remove the possibility of what it has to offer. (including spirituality". what i do is give it consideration that is equal to the evidence i have been presented for it. as i do for all proposals. as of yet i have not been presented with any evidence that supernatural/spiritual claims are true except for personal testimony or you can't explain it any other way so my belief must be true. mow i do disagree on Einstein's spirituality but we have gone there before and i think we both can agree that rehashing that between us is a waste of both of our time as i can counter quote you and you can do the same.

  • Achems_Razor

    Yes as over the edge states I certainly can fight my own battles, why are you going to a third party to voice your opinions about me? Are you scared to converse with me?

    Me, blinded by bias? Don't even know what you mean by that?

    Why are you putting your mixed martial arts in the picture? 30 years? wow!

    You keep quoting from authority with your Einstein thing, getting old hat.
    If you are not a religee, you adhere to some sort of religion, are you a deist?

  • robertallen1

    Taking this to a ridiculous extreme, one could say that you are blinded by empiricism; however, I find it more accurate to term this as being blinded by enlightenment, if you'll pardon the irony.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    I thought I had answered your question Over The Edge...apparently I didn't...I must have misunderstood it. Can you re-Iterate your question (and perhaps what you think is mine) please?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Kateye70...without you showing the evidence you've looked it it's actually called ignorance. But I think I know what you're trying to ask. And the answer to what I think you're asking is...Weak Atheism.

  • over the edge

    TopDocRocks
    you never answered my questions you skated around them. but i will focus on only a few and omit the others. what is your position on all 28,000,000 gods that have been worshiped? do you believe in one of them? why so or why not? please do not walk around the answer as you must have an opinion on god. this isn't the first time we have had a discussion on this topic and don't seem to know who this creator is,where he is,why he created us,how he created us or can provide any way to test for his existence but you know he exists. i will try to be as clear as i can i DO NOT claim that there is no creator i am withholding judgement until evidence is presented to me that conclusively proves the claim one way or the other. in my opinion that is the only honest approach to this question. now if we are talking about the god of the many religions that have been worshiped. some i have an opinion on and others i have not studied enough to comment on. but i will say that as science discovers more and more on how the universe works there is less and less that this creator is needed. in closing you are wrong on where the burden of proof lies and if you fail to understand why i cannot help you

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    1. Correct...my comment is not about this documentary...and I've pre-apologized if the topic of my comment is mis-posted.

    2. No...I'm claiming that an appeal to "science" (Methodological Naturalism) as an athority on the existence or non-existence of a Creator/God is a fallacy. I've explained why...but in short it's this: Science doesn't make claims about what doesn't exist (currently...due to our lack of ability to effectively prove such claims at this time). And because "science" can't falsify the existence of a Creator/God being right now it has to stay ignorance/silent on such an issue (the issue of the existence of a Creator/God being) until it can. In the mean time it can say, based on it's observations of what it real and does exist, that if such a being exists such a being is probably not part of nature (as science currently understands nature). And it is most likey this observation that has led Atheists to jump to the conclusion that such a being must not exist at all. But such a conclusion both is a jump to make (because a Creator/God could exist in a part of time/space that we have not observed yet or could exist outside of time/space altogether...the latter being most probable due to the supernatural qualities a Creator/God would most likely need to have in order to qualify as the Creator) and is also not a scientific claim.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Achems_Razor has joined the conversation...what is it you're finding difficult to follow? Ask away....

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Vlatko you do realize that we are saying the same thing right?

    That the Creator/God is not falsifiable (not now at least) and therefore it is stupid for "science" to make any claims about such a beings existence (currently)...that it either exists or does not exist...because the claim of of it's existence or the claim of non-existence are both scientifically unfalsifiable claims (right now)?

    Let's agree to agree.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    I don't know about fairies...they might exist...they might not...I have to claim I'm an agnostic about the subject of their existence. I've not looked at the evidence claiming they exist nor have I looked at the evidence claiming they do not exist (although one knows I have asked for such evidence of absence from those who claim there are no fairies).

    And no Robertallen1...you ARE making an assertion...you are asserting that "no convincing evidence has been presented." That is an assertion. And not free from the burden of proof just because it's difficult to back up.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    It seems you agree with me about avoiding fallacy.

    Another fallacy is "Appeal to Absurdity." It doesn't matter if the claim that fairies exist is a kooky idea. It is not true if it's not kooky (nor is it false if it is kooky)...we can't appeal to absurdity as our evidence either way.

    What we can do is investigate the evidence. What that really boils down to, and this is what all of us are doing on TDF actually, is personally postulating the merit of others claims of evidence.

    This entails examining the claims of fairy believers, and the claims of fairy unbelievers.

    If we do not believe fairies exist based on looking at the claims, we can't claim fairies do not exist. Neither can we claim there is no evidence for fairies. We can only claim that based on the evidence we have encountered we are not convinced fairies exists...but that there is a possibility that they might exist...and we can direct inquiries to those who claim to have encountered fairies, and to those who claim to have proved their non-existence.

    It's a good question: "If science (methodological naturalism) is a bad authority when it comes to the existence of a supreme being what authorities should be used?" Well we're left with other types of evidentialism that can come from Personal experience, Eye witness accounts, Theology, Religious Naturalism, Psychology, The Occult, Philosophy, Mathematics, etc. Individually each field may not provide much evidence one way or the other. But taken as a whole things add up.

    And we're not talking about a completely made up thing like a "Spaghetti Monster." We're talking about a valid and plausible cause for the origin of the Universe, that people claim can even be interacted with (because they claim to have done so). And that through investigations into eye witness accounts, theology, religious naturalism, psychology, the occult, philosophy, mathematics, and through pursuing one's own personal experiences one can have the evidence for themselves that such a cause exists or does not.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    These things can prove the existence of a supreme being, or disprove it, subjectively.

    Methodological Naturalism can "prove" it subjectively too but that's tricky and misleading and doesn't count as it's the job of Methodological Naturalism to prove things Objectively (which it can't do right now on the topic of God's existence/non-existence).

    So in light of Methodological Naturalism claiming ignorance on the subject...and we not being able to live long enough until it can claim otherwise...the only evidence/proof we can rely on with regards to the existence of the Creator/God...is subjective evidence/proof.

    And that's perfectly fine. Because the alternative is ignorance [which is what Methodological Naturalism offers you on the topic of the existence of the Creator/God if you lean only on it for evidentialism]).

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Vlatko, I'm sure we can agree that an Ad Hominem attack does not make one more credible, or likable.

    Can you please rephrase/retract your comment "A deist...I wonder why I'm not surprised."

    In its current form it is came across to me as condescending.

    I may be reading it wrongly. What do you mean by it?

  • robertallen1

    Cut to the chase. Just how do you propose determining whether this entity exists--and a direct answer, please.

    P.S. You still haven't answered anyone's questions, such as whether you believe in fairies and if you do, prove their existence and if you don't, explain why and provide proof that they don't--is it that you can't practice what you preach? Is it that you can't write around this question or those posited by Over the Edge?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Good feedback and questions Robertallen1.

    Perhaps we can chat over email?

    How do you not see the logic of "Asking a human to prove God exists is dumb. If God doesn't exist you won't get proof. And if God does exist, you're asking the wrong person." ?

    The wrong person is people. We've established humans can't objectively prove the existence of a being on the scale of a Creator/God (not now at least). And that subjective proof/evidence is all one can expect to get (in ones lifetime). So spending ones life asking others for the impossible (objective proof) is dumb. And asking others to show you the subjective evidence that convinced them is also dumb as the subjective evidence that convinced them may not be the subjective evidence that will convince you (the evidence you are looking for). Better to just straight up ask the right person...namely the Creator/God himself/herself/itself/themself...for the proof/evidence you require...and hope you get it (then to run around asking the wrong prople the wrong questions).

    This of course would only be a fair question to ask such a Creator/God if one actually wants the answer. Do you want to know that the Creator/God exists?

  • robertallen1

    Completely false. I stated that I do not believe in the existence of a supreme being because there has been no evidence to CONVINCE ME of its existence. I do not have to prove that I have found no evidence convince me, much less that there is no convincing evidence. In short, as a number of posters far more knowledgable than you have shown yourself to be have stated, you don't know what you're talking about.

    Furthermore, if you're agnostic about the existence of fairies, you must be agnostic about the existence of unicorns, griffons, tritons, mermaids, mermans and other such fantastic creatures. How utterly ridiculous! How utterly absurd!

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    I'm not sure about fairies. I haven't investigated the evidence.

    Whatever point you're trying to make about Fairies perhaps try and make it differently robertallen1.

    To determine for yourself if this entity exists...ask Him/Her/It/Them for "proof."

    If such an entity exists...it's a totally fair and reasonable request. We're talking about a very plausible cause agent for the origin of the Universe...not a made up "spaghetti monster." And a cause agent that would have the powers to comprehend your request for proof and give it. If it created the universe, it can't be that big a deal to grant your request that it prove its existence to you robertallen1.

    And quite realistically that's probably the most acute way of acquiring the subjective "proof" you are looking for (but again sorry no objective proof...not in your lifetime).

    If you actually want such subjective proof that is. Be aware that subjective proof is more exacting than objective truth. One can always ignore objective proof. Do you want subjective proof of the existence of the Creator/God robertallen1?

    No shame in saying no.

  • robertallen1

    Appeal to absurdity is your rule, no one else's--and .

    By the way, if the spaghetti monster is, as you claim, completely made up, so are fairies, the evidence for this being contained in many works of fiction, works that do not claim even an iota of truth. The fallacy of appeal to absurdity is your rule and your rule only, just as your claim of the obligation to prove a negative. Examining the claims of believers in fairies as opposed to those who do not believe in them is as idiotic as employing unverified and unverifiable personal experience and eye witness accounts, theology, religious naturalism, psychology, the occult, philosophy, mathematics, etc. either individually or taken together, to prove or disprove the existence of a supreme being, as none of these is capable of producing anything approaching hard evidence, the only type of evidence that counts--i.e., methodical naturalism, whether you like it or not

  • robertallen1

    There is no such thing as a subjective proof, much less subjective evidence.

  • robertallen1

    No, your statement makes no sense and no, WE haven't established anything except the patent idiocy of everything you've posited such as subjective evidence, subjective proof (whatever they are), asking God directly if he exists, searching the cosmos for evidence or lack thereof.

  • robertallen1

    Why should he have to. It's one of the more intelligent comments.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Objective: robertallen1 made the claim "There is no such thing as subjective proof."

    Subjective: robertallen1 makes some pretty bold claims.

    Objective Proof: "Pandas exist. They're even in zoos to go look at."

    Subjective Proof: "Bigfoot exists. I was kidnapped by some."

    Objective Evidence: "Mam, your husband has been charged with murder. His fingerprints are on the murder weapon."

    Subjective Evidence: "There must be a mistake, he'd never do such a thing! I've know him. He's not a murder."

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    No we are not saying the same thing. You struggle to reinvent basic logic. The argument is very simple:

    Deist: There is God.
    Atheist: Prove it.
    Deist: I can't, it is not falsifiable. It is subjective.
    Atheist: If that is the case I don't believe in your God. There is no evidence therefore it doesn't exist.

  • robertallen1

    Appeal to ridicule is a logical fallacy, but reductio ad absurdum is not.

    Care to provide sufficient warrant for personal experience, eye witness accounts, theology, religious naturalism, psychology, the occult and philosophy being being evidence for the existence of a supreme being.

    You're the one who's asserts that methodical naturalism cannot be employed to determine the existence of a supreme being. Prove it.

    You're the one who indicates that a supreme being exists outside the realm of physical proof. Prove it.

    You're the one who asserts that science shows evidence that the Creator/God does not exist in the natural. Prove it.

  • robertallen1

    Your example of subjective proof is merely a groundless assertion and not proof at all.

    Your example of subjective evidence is no more than a statement of disbelief and not evidence at all.

    And these are two of the ways you list to prove the existence of a supreme being?

  • Achems_Razor

    There you go with your metaphoric word plays again, makes as much sense as...

    Mr. See owned a saw.
    And Mr. Soar owned a seesaw.
    Now, See's saw sawed Soars seesaw.
    Before Soar saw See,
    Which made Soar sore.
    Had Soar seen See's saw
    Before See sawed Soars seesaw,
    See's saw would not have sawed
    Soars seesaw.
    So See's saw sawed Soars seesaw.
    But it was sad to see saw so sore,
    just because See's saw sawed Soars seesaw.

  • robertallen1

    Or

    Mary had a little lamb,
    It's fleece was black as soot,
    And everywhere that Mary went,
    His sooty foot he put.

    Notice he has not provided any proof for his assertions, but yet expects others to do so for theirs. Notice his examples of subjective proof and subjective evidence which are no more than mere assertions and expressions of disbelief, but somehow these, along with the occult, theology, religious naturalism, etc. are better than methodical naturalism for establishing proof of the existence of a supreme being which by existing outside the natural world (a claim he has yet to prove) is impervious to science. Sounds to me like more of a cop-out written in gibberish.

  • robertallen1

    Over_the_Edge, Epicurus, Vlatko, Achems_Razor and, of course, everyone else.

    Aaron Ra was kind enough to allow me to quote his response to the e-mail I sent him on the eve his debate with banana brain.

    RA: Just heard about your upcoming debate with Ray Comfort tomorrow at 7:00 p.m. PST which I now await with bated breath. I won't wish you good luck because you won't need it; however, if I may offer you a word of advice: whatever you do, please do not hold back.

    AR: I was quite frustrated when Ray said his spiel about accepting Jesus or you'll burn in Hell. I had a landslide retort to that, a ten-minute high speed rant that would [have] destroyed everything he stood for. But I couldn't get to that, because the moment I started the cart rolling, they told me there was only two minutes left of the show, and that they would give him the last word.

    Just thought someone might be interested.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    "Subjective Proof: "Bigfoot exists. I was kidnapped by some.""

    not proof.

    "Subjective Evidence: "There must be a mistake, he'd never do such a thing! I've know him. He's not a murder.""

    not evidence.

    subjective opinions are not evidences or proofs.

  • https://twitter.com/2Drewish Sarcastic_Drew

    Objective: robertallen1 made the claim "There is no such thing as subjective proof."

    Subjective: robertallen1 makes some pretty bold claims.

    Objective Proof: "Pandas exist. They're even in zoos to go look at."

    Subjective Proof: "Bigfoot exists. I was kidnapped by some."

    Objective Evidence: "Mam, your husband has been charged with murder. His fingerprints are on the murder weapon."

    Subjective Evidence: "There must be a mistake, he'd never do such a thing! I've know him. He's not a murder."

    Everything about this is totally wrong. What planet are you on dude? Srsly.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Vlatko: A God being is not falsifiable.
    TopDocRocks: A God being is not falsifiable now.

    How are we in disagreement?

    Deist: There is God.
    Atheist: Prove it.
    Deist: I can't, it is not falsifiable. It is subjective.
    Atheist: If that is the case I don't believe in your God. There is no evidence therefore it doesn't exist.
    Deist: Good. I wouldn't want you to take my word for it. Find your own subjective evidence.

    How are we in disagreement?

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    Don't take it as such. It means what it literary means. When you've started to comment I sensed (and probably everyone else) that I was talking to a religious person. When you've openly declared that you're Deist I only said that I'm not surprised. Is that so bad? I don't think so.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    No I don't care to share with you my personal experiences.

    I don't assert anything about Methodical Naturalism (whatever that is). I have already given my philosophical reasons why MethodOLOGical Naturalsm [I've corrected your spelling twice now robertallen1...if we're going to talk about it spell it correctly please] has difficulty if employed to determine the existence of a Creator/Beingl (we'd need to define such a being, examine all space, examine all time, show such an examination was not flawed, all this is beyond our capabilities at this time).

    I've already given my philosphical reasons as to why it appears to me that a Creator/God doesn't exist in our physical realm (Methodological Naturalism has not found non-natural causes for nature nor has it bumped into such a Creator/Being in it's search for natural causes for nature).

    I've pointed out what "science" can claim about a Creator/God and you said there is no such being and that there is no evidence of such a being. I pointed out that your claim of no evidence is not true in that you have only appealed to ignorance as your evidence of no evidence. You tried to have me deny fairies exist. And now you're asking me to try and prove Theism. I'm still waiting for your evidence of no evidence.

    Perhaps my inquiry was not clear. Tell me robertallen1...WHERE did you search for evidence of a Creator/Being? WHEN did you search for this evidence? HOW did you search for this evidence? and WHY did you search for this evidence?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Yes...subjective proof is not objective proof...duh.

    Yes...subjective evidence is not objective evidence...duh.

    I'm glad you agree that there is such a thing as subjective evidence/proof [your claim that they do not exist was just plain wrong].

    And I'm glad we agree that subjective evidence and subjective proof is NOT objective evidence or objecctive proof.

    I'm also glad we agree that subjective evidence and subjective proof is pretty much all we can use in proving to ourselves the existence of a Creator/God (all we can use in our lifetime that is).

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    We are talking about what is falsifiable now, not what it will be. We are arguing now at this moment. We are not in a time warp.

    You want me to find my own "subjective evidence" for YOUR God that YOU claim to be true.

    Subjective evidence is not verifiable by a third party, therefore it is only an opinion (knowledge as conditioned by personal mental characteristics or states).

    The conversation is again simple. You don't need the last line (that you've added just for the sake of arguing).

    Deist: There is God.
    Atheist: Prove it.
    Deist: I can't, it is not falsifiable. It is subjective.
    Atheist: If that is the case I don't believe in your God. There is no evidence therefore it doesn't exist.

  • https://twitter.com/2Drewish Sarcastic_Drew

    Epicurus is stating subjective "proof" is not proof at all.

    Everyone else, can't you see this douche is clearly trolling?

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @Sarcastic_Drew,

    Of course we can see. He is going in circles, making things up as he goes, throwing fallacies out of his sleeves, presenting unsound logic, dodging arguments he doesn't like, presenting incorrect paraphrases... and all that just to philosophically justify the existence of his God. Not that he'll truly justify that for anyone here, but I hope at least it'll make him sleep better.

  • robertallen1

    I particularly resent your asking me to descirbe my search for evidence of a Creator/Being when you refuse to share your personal experiences. In addition, you demand personal warrant from everyone. Your philosophical reasons for a Creator/God not existing in our physical realm are not only anfractuous but worthless and frankly I couldn't care less about them or what you term your philosophy. Your statements as to what science can claim anent a Creator/God are as ludicrous as what your subjective proof and subjective evidence and the only thing constructive about these chimera is the laughter you've provoked from at least three people on this thread who've read your post describing them.

    Despite my many attempts to correct you on what my thoughts are as to the existence of a creator, you insist on clinging to your strawman just as you insist that I've tried to have you deny the existence of fairies when I merely asked you if you believed in them and if so, to provide the evidence for your belief and if not, to furnish the reason and the evidence of absence to back it up. This is nothing more than what you have been demanding of everyone else. The choice was yours. I even gave you a way out by mentioning all the famous works of fiction in which they appear, proof of their non-existence which you apparently did not pick up on. So don't complain about not receiving the respect to which you feel you're entitled. As Achem so rightly indicated, no crying the blues here.

    I also resent your attempts to waylay me into a personal chat with you. I'd rather keep it public so that everyone who reads the comments on this thread can appreciate the inanity of what you dish out and be at least entertained by the boated opinion you have of yourself.

  • robertallen1

    We don't agree on any of this and your statements are a complete misrepresentation. You are either hopelessly dense or a congenital liar--and "duh" doesn't cut it.

    P.S. You tried the same trick with Vlatko.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Vlatko can you please apologize for that comment? It is conjecture and I find it inflammatory and beneath the standards of TDF ["At TDF we pride ourselves on polite and friendly comments. TDF has a thriving user community and actively encourages commenting. We are dedicated to this community and strive to maintain a respectful, engaging and informative conversation"]. You do not have to apologize of course. No bullying here.

    About what I claim (actually claim)....

    I'm convinced my claim still stands: Methodological Naturalism (commonly called "Science") can really only claim ignorance on the matter of a Creator/God. It could be argued that Methodological Naturalism could claim that if such a being exists it appears that such a being does not exist in nature. This can be reasoned because Methodological Naturalism in its search for natural causes of nature has repeatedly found natural causes for nature; and as of yet has not encountered such a Creator/God being with all of Methodological Naturalisms searching. This is a bit of a flawed observation though as Methodological Naturalism has not before nor is now looking for evidence of a Creator/God. Therefore it is a fallacy to appeal to "Science" as an authority on the existence or non-existence of a Creator/God as Methodological Naturalism does not say such a being does not exist (as it currently has no way to show objective proof of such a claim of non-existence) nor does it say that such a being exist (again for the same reason...Methodological Naturalism currently has no way to show objective proof of such a claim of existence). Claims such as "there is no evidence of God" in reference to Methodological Naturalism evidence are not only false claims (Who looked for the evidence? Where did they look? How did they look? When did they look? Why did they look? How do we know they didn't miss something? Where are the peer reviewed publications of such a search for evidence? etc.) but are silly as we all know Methodological Naturalism WILL NOT look for such evidence until at such time it has a way to show objective proof either way [and therefore until such time that "science" can objectively proof the existence or non-existence of a Creator/God the claim of "no evidence" is a perpetual fallacy of "absence of evidence is the evidence of absence"]. Such claims of existence/non-existence are not the realm of Methodological Naturalism at this time. In the mean time, instead of ignorance on the issue [which is what Methodological Naturalism offers], one can find for themselves subjective evidence/proof of the existence of a Creator/God (evidence/proof for oneself only...hence subjective) via other sciences and evidentialisms such as philosophy, psychology, mathematics, consciousness studies, relationships, the occult, religious naturalism, personal experiences, anecdotal stories etc.

    Please do not confuse my words/actions that have me appearing to shift the burden of proof and appeal to ignorance (prove me wrong) with my implicit expectation to be critiqued and enlightened otherwise (because if I am indeed wrong I'd like to know that I am). I am open to be proven wrong (philosophically of course...can't prove otherwise on a comments section). And I would like it if I was shown to be wrong if indeed I am. Yes I will be tempted to conclude that I am correct if I am not shown to be wrong. But I will not say I am correct...only that I have fleshed out my ideas with others and they have given me x,y,z feedback. What is everyones feedback to my claim?

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    anytime people make claims about god that interact with the natural world it becomes a testable claim. when those claims dont stand up to scientific investigation we dismiss the claim.

    it is true however that science cant question something that is unfalsifiable.

    but how do we come to the conclusion that the thing even exists? where does the idea come from and how do we go about confirming it as a good idea to hold? and then how do we take the extra step of figuring out which god man has invented that fits this god thing?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Yes Yes...like I've agreed with everyone else on here and now you too Vlatko...subjective evidence is not objective evidence.

    Anyone disagree with that? Everyone (Sarcastic_Drew, Epicurus, Over The Edge, robertallen1, Achems_Razor, Vlatko) seems to think that needs to be made clear. Anyone not clear on that? Subjective evidence is NOT objective evidence.

  • http://www.topdocumentaryfilms.com Epicurus

    really i dont see how subjective proof is proof of anything based on what proof means (or evidence for that matter)

    i think there are subjective opinions, not subjective proofs

  • robertallen1

    Vlatko. Don't you dare apologize for that comment (whichever one he's referring to). Judging from this post, it's disquietingly accurate.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    No need to quote the comment policy. I didn't say anything about your personality. I've only stated what you do in this comment section. Simply you're presenting bad logic and philosophy and I stand behind that claim.

    As for your wall of text, it explicitly shows that YOUR god exists ONLY for you, exclusively in your own subjective realm.

    I and others, many times, tried to explain to you why this is not enough to convince rational people to believe in your God, and that your subjective notion is not evidence nor proof, but just an opinion.

    Having said that I think any further comments on this subject, explaining the same thing over and over again, will be futile, as shown so far.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    Nope you're twisting the words. Here is what I've said:

    Subjective evidence is not evidence of any kind at all. It is only an opinion (knowledge as conditioned by personal mental characteristics or states).

  • awful_truth

    @robertallen1. Believe it or not, I agree completely with your stand regarding the need for a "lawgiver (god)who works on the basis of reward, and punishment", and your thoughts regarding moral principles. Perhaps the only thing we disagree on is your self proclaimation of being agnostic. You refute any concept of god, as much as Richard Dawkins, yet he calls himself an athiest, and you do not. To each their own, I guess.

  • awful_truth

    As I stated many times, I am spiritual by nature, not religious. I do not believe in traditional forms of religion, because I don't believe god is a all powerful, all knowing entity, but I do believe in higher forms of life. (the universe is alive, and intelligent) that is as direct an answer is to what Einstein said, (Spinoza's god) but if you can't see the forest for the trees, (biased) communication is problematic at best.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Evidence that is subjective is evidence to the person who holds such evidence. The person kidnapped by bigfoot has lots of evidence that bigfoot exists (evidence for them that is). It's not objective evidence. But it is evidence. No, you are wrong. Evidence that is subjective (subjective evidence) is evidence. The subjective evidence of the kidnapped convinces them without any doubt that bigfoot exists. It is evidence. It is just not objective evidence. We agree: evidence that is subjective is not objective evidence [if you insist we disagree than you are wrong...evidence that is subjective is evidence of a kind...using your own words...I've simply clarified what kind it is not...that being...it is not Objective evidence].

  • robertallen1

    I simply agree with Einstein on this point.

    I don't profess to know and I also don't care, but I refute the claims of those who assert knowledge of something which by definition cannot be known.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    The concepts I'm presenting are probably new to the TDF staff and friends and most likely the reason for the "I don't get it" responses. My attempts to explain them should not be confused with trolling, lieing, trickery, etc. They are not blatantly obvious concepts: "Subjective Evidence/Proof"; "Any claim is subject to the burden of proof (even claims of absence)"; "Subjective Evidence/Proof to an individual can outweigh Objective evidence/proof"; "Methodological Naturalism, commonly shortened to the word 'science', is not an authority on the existence or non-existence of a Creator/Being"; "The claim 'there is no evidence of a Creator/Being' is the fallacy 'absence of evidence is the evidence of absence' because 1) no attempt at acquiring said evidence has taken place and 2) no attempt at avoiding the above fallacy has been demonstrated" [this claim does appeal to ignorance but is ok with that as this is an easy claim to disprove...simply show the scientific work/process done]; "Methodological Naturalism can possibly claim that if a Creator/God exists such a being probably exists outside nature...this has been the same subjective observation of Theists for millennia."

  • robertallen1

    What a conceited way to cover up the unintelligibility and vacuity of your ideation. You must really have an inflated opinion of yourself to believe that you are presenting anything that the "TDF staff" is not equipped to understand--and it's laughable how you bring what you consider novelty into the picture. I suggest you conduct a Google search on delusional.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    No we don't agree. I don't know why are you repeating that all the time. It won't help you to win the argument.

    You say subjective evidence is only evidence to the person who holds such evidence. But that is argument from personal experience. And indeed your "subjective evidence" is personal experience, an anecdote, an opinion.

    Ahhh... I don't know why I even bother. This conversation is futile.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    So don't bother. You're rude.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    I'll repeat it again, insulting me doesn't do you any good. If you understand it then stop claiming you don't. And why not intelligently reflect upon my claim (and concepts) instead of troll.

  • Achems_Razor

    Your rude? you say to Vlatko, I presume you are male, if so why don't you grow a pair? If you are female...or? then you are forgiven by default.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    Maybe, but what else is left when you refuse to consider basic logic. You're going on in circles, inventing definitions that don't exist, plastering strawman all the time. It is just annoying.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Yes we agree: "And indeed your 'subjective evidence' is personal experience, an anecdote, an opinion." That is no different than: "subjective evidence" is not objective evidence.

    "Evidence in its broadest sense includes everything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion." Wikipedia-Evidence

    This is why subjective evidence is evidence for the individual that has it. The person kidnapped by Bigfoot can make the assertion "It was a dream" or "It was a delusion" or "It was a prank" or "it really happened" and/or "Bigfoot are real." Each of these assertions will be weighed against the evidence the kidnap victim was exposed to. All the evidence in the experience is objective to the kidnap victim. But it becomes subjective to the hearers that the kidnap victim tells the experience to. The most plausible assertion can be determined (both by the victim and with the help of others). But it will be up to the victim to decide for themselves which assertion they will believe is most accurate. And without objective evidence this decision is subjective.

    This "subjective" experience (which results in subjective evidence to us who didn't experience the same event) doesn't mean that the victim did not experience it, or that the victim can't have proof for themselves, or that it didn't happen, or that the victim can't claim they have evidence that convinces them (subjective evidence), or that the evidence the victim experienced is not evidence of any kind. It is most definitely evidence of a kind...of a kind that will most likely make a believer in Bigfoot out of the victim...but sadly that can not make a believer out of us who lack that experience.

    Subjective Evidence/Experiential Evidence...it's similar...and valid, real, and true for the person experiencing it

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Yes I do. You act like they are. It's a reasonble conclusion.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    Isn't that rude? It looks like you've been rude all the time.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    So you agree that 'subjective evidence' is personal experience, an anecdote, an opinion. Good, we've established that.

    Now to continue with the circle. If we follow the line of your reasoning then you have to admit that your God exists only in YOUR subjective realm and you can't prove it outside of it.

    If that is the case it is not falsifiable, except if you invent another term here (subjective falsifiability), which will of course mean nothing.

    Therefore, an atheist, and pretty much everyone else outside of your religion, will not believe in your God for the reasons outlined above.

    Now, please answer this question: Do you believe in Celestial Teapot?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    If you think that is rude my apologies. I was trying to show that it's fair and reasonable for me to conclude the concepts I'm presenting are new per the response I've been receiving. I meant no insult.

  • PillowhandsMcgraw

    Subjective Evidence/Experiential Evidence...it's similar...and valid, real, and true for the person experiencing it

    So very, very wrong. Experimental evidence can be observed by others and tested again by others. Subjective evidence doesn't even exist let alone placing it on the same level as experimental evidence.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    What are you trying to prove to me Vlatko?

    Just tell me what you hope to convince me of. Then try to convince me of it.

    I'm not doing the "you're Jesus and I'm your disciple...ask me lots of questions until I get it" thing.

    Otherwise I'm afraid I have to admit I'm not on the same page as you. I was trying to discuss the "What science observes about God...or can infer by what it has not observed" page.

    But I might switch to your page if you clarify what that page is (seeing as no one wants to be nice and talk about the page I want to discuss...arg...perhaps I'll be the nice guy and talk about the page they want to discuss).

    What are you trying to convince me of Vlatko?

  • Emanouel

    There is no objective evidence for the existence of "God."

    Even the most religious will admit this. You should too.
    But there is nothing wrong with faith. Faith is part of the human experience; a part of the human condition. Do we not have faith that we will live long, healthy lives? We cannot prove we will live long, healthy lives but we have faith that we will and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    Of course I'll not convince you of anything. How do you expect me to convince you on a comment board. You're already convinced, there is nothing much I can do about it.

    We are still on the same page. Can you answer the question: Do you believe in Celestial Teapot?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    "There is no objective evidence for the existence of 'god'" is a claim of absence. It is subject to the burden of proof. "Even the most religious will admit this" does not meet the burden of proof as this is the appeal to popular opinion fallacy. The burden of proof remains on you to support your claim of absence (of evidence). Where was the search for this evidence done? How was it done? When was it done? Who did the search? Why was the search done? How do we know we didn't miss anything? How was the evidence of no evidence demonstrated so as to avoid the fallacy "absence of evidence is evidence of absence"? Where were the scientific findings of such a search published? Where can I get a copy of such published findings so I can examine it for myself?

    Is your claim even a scientific claim?

  • PillowhandsMcgraw

    Why do you even believe in a god? and as over the edge stated which of the 28 000 000 gods do you believe in?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    What are you getting at PillowhandsMcgraw? State your intent.

  • robertallen1

    That's the thing. All of us have intelligently reflected upon your claims and the result is the laughter and derision which you so richly deserve. If you feel insulted, you realize you have an option.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    If you don't have the confidence or skill to claim what it is you intend to convince me of then stop pretending like you have something worth saying. Man up with your intentions now. Or go back to the drawingboard and get back to me when you can.

  • robertallen1

    Not only are you delusional, but you support the concept of being delusional.

  • PillowhandsMcgraw

    I have no intent, but would like to know which god you chose to worship and why that particular one over the others as there is many choices, i feel overwhelmed thinking off all the gods that are out there.

  • Emanouel

    I think it is quite reasonable to assume that, during past millenia, man has searched for objective evidence for the existence of "God."
    Further, if any objective evidence had been uncovered, I'm sure we would all have been made aware of it.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Copy/Paste your reflection about my claim robertallen1. I somehow missed it.

  • robertallen1

    RIght you are.

    P.S. Where did you get your monniker?

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    You make the claim that God exists, not the other side. Remember the conversation. Stick to it. Don't pretend that people deny your God out of blue. You make the claim, others follow:

    Deist: There is God.
    Atheist: I don't believe that. Prove it.
    Deist: I can't, it is not falsifiable. It is subjective. I have no objective evidence. I only have personal experience and opinion. You might want to search for your own personal experience and opinion and find God for yourself.
    Atheist: Nah, I need objective empirical evidence. That is what I trust the most. Therefore I will not believe in your God. There is no evidence therefore it doesn't exist.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    If you have no intent...move along.

  • robertallen1

    There is everything in the world wrong with faith. It's an abrogation of the intelligence. It's stupidity copulating with ignorance to give birth to a false virtue.

    And no, we don't have faith that we will live long, healthy lives, simply hope.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    Now you're rude. Confidence, skill... Jesus.

    I want to hear your answer about the Celestial Teapot and compare it to what we were arguing so far about your God.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    Why should he move along? He asked you a simple question and he explained why he is asking that.

    Being rude again?

  • robertallen1

    Perhaps it's a committee.

  • PillowhandsMcgraw

    From a show called American Dad.. funny show he's a hobo who wrestles for food with pillows for hands. lol. By the way how long have you been posting on the site i see alot of robertallen?

    P.S. I'm a new poster but I've been watching docus and reading posts for awhile now finally decided it was time to start engaging as i share the same views as a lot of the regular posters of the site.

  • robertallen1

    No, you go back through the comments.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Ok...it's your assumption. Wanted to clear that up. Thought you were trying to state a Scientific claim/fact .

    If you were lucky to have followed what I've been saying (before Achems_Razor censored a good portion of my comments out) you'd have seen that I have been pointing out something similar. I can not claim it is scientific to state "there is no objective evidence for God" (I've pointed out why with my last post to you). But I can claim it's reasonable for "science" to point out that if a Creator/God exists it most likely does not exist in nature (something Theists have been subjectively observing for millenia).

    This is quite interesting as if this claim is accurate (that "science" can say this) it is objective evidence of the nature of God (not of the existence of God...only about what KIND of being a Creator/God would be...a non-natural being). Very interesting. Interesting that "Science" can comment on the nature of a Creator/God without being able to comment on the existence of such a being. But this is not new for "science." This happens all the time in Crypto Zoology (evidence of the nature of an animal before science can claim it exists). Very interesting to me.

  • PillowhandsMcgraw

    Wow. ok. Tried being polite i was really just curious as to why you chose your god, that didn't work.. never going to do that again.

  • robertallen1

    How many times do you have to be told not order others about?

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Yep and Yep. Got any more robertallentroll1?

  • PillowhandsMcgraw

    Thank you vlatko. nice to see civility on a side note thanks much for the great docus, and even more for your comments. I came to this site for docus specifically but i spend more time reading the comments. lol.

  • robertallen1

    It's like a bad habit or even worse, a drug.

    Anyway, let me be the first to welcome you. Would you mind informing us of your areas of interest or specialties, education, etc.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Ok everyone let's examine what I'm about to say...

    THERE ARE NO COMMENTS MADE BY ROBERTALLEN1 CONCERNING MY CLAIM (ABOUT SCIENCE AND WHAT SCIENCE CAN INFER ABOUT A CREATOR/GOD).

    Question: Who has the burden of proof for this statement? Me? Or Robertallen1?

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    Cryptozoology is not a recognized discipline of science. It is an example of pseudoscience because it relies heavily upon anecdotal evidence, stories and alleged sightings. - Wiki

    Cryptozoology pretty much resembles your arguments.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    When I get an answer to why there is no evidence of God from robertallen1, or what is Vlatko's intention, or even some actual comments to my claim about what science can infer about the Creator/God (and not trolling)...perhaps I'll be more interested in answering your question. But for me to just up and answer it...well that's just not fair at this point.

  • robertallen1

    So you rely on a pseudoscience for your "information." Why is it I'm not surprised.

  • robertallen1

    Don't feel daunted. Full speed ahead. Give him a broadside.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Vlatko are you trying to troll me into responding to you or others in such a way so as to justify banning me or someting similar?

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    Science doesn't care about your God... directly. However while doing the usual everyday business it regularly stumbles upon clues that suggest that no God is needed for what we observe.

    The burden of proof is always on you since you make the original claim that God exists.

  • Emanouel

    I find it interesting like you, but it is speculation nonetheless?

  • awful_truth

    Speaking of rude, a good thing there isn't many females reading your last blog. Hey, don't sweat it though, here is some really rude comments, just in the last hour from one guy.

    1) That's the thing. All of us have intelligently reflected upon your claims and the result is the laughter and derision which you so richly deserve. If you feel insulted, you realize you have an option. - Robertallen1
    2) Not only are you delusional, but you support the concept of being delusional.
    Robertallen1
    3) That you're a deluded fool for one thing.
    Robertallen1
    4) We don't agree on any of this and your statements are a complete misrepresentation. You are either hopelessly dense or a congenital liar--and "duh" doesn't cut it.

    Is this the "primary importance of moral principles" you were describing to me? (In one word - hipocracy)

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @TopDocRocks,

    You're being rude again. No I have no such intentions.

    @PillowhandsMcgraw explained why he is asking the question and so did I (but I still didn't get the answer). There is no reason to command him to move along.

  • PillowhandsMcgraw

    Thank you for the welcoming,I'm 21 I'd say for the past 2 years or so my only interest is science really anything to do with it but i thoroughly enjoy QM above all. I'm actually going back to school taking physics i just finished precal so i can hopefully go to university. I just had no idea what I wanted to do in high school and when I finished I took a year off to search I guess would be the term and ya fell in love with physics.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    The civility is fleeting. But don't take my word for it. Experience things for yourself. And make your own conclusions. I received no such welcome. You are lucky.

    I've been trying to discuss my recent 2+2 that "Science" (real name is Methodological Naturalism) can infer that the Creator/God is not a part of nature (which gives us insight into the nature of a being the likes of a Creator/God...namely that such a being is not part of nature...and probably couldn't be?).

    I currently feel jaded due to some of the unkind and unwelcoming behavior/comments from the TDF staff and some of their friends. Your question is ill timed. Perhaps if you will open up and share what God you believe in/prefer I'd open up too.

    Welcome to TDF. Despite the drama the docs are good.

  • over the edge

    TopDocRocks
    i will try again. since we both referred to "Russel's Teapot" in previous posts i will assume we agree on it's premise (correct me if i am wrong). quote from Bertrand Russell "if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense." do we agree? but unless science changes its core tenants of finding natural causes/explanations for natural phenomena and if it shifted its concern to the supernatural why bother calling it science? do you agree? does this designer/creator have any testable demonstrable manifestations within the areas we are at the present able to test? if so what are they if not how do i go about gathering demonstrable proof? i agree that someone who has experienced god/bigfoot/aliens and so on honestly believes it and they may be right. but that is not anything i can base a conclusion on. people have honestly experienced a multitude of gods (by definition of many gods there is only one) most of these claims seem to be made by otherwise intelligent sane people. so how am i to decide based on the subjective? how am i to test every claim made by billions of people throughout history? the approach i have taken is to not believe any of them til they provide something i can actually test for myself. i will even go as far to say that i feel that many of the posters here agree with me in stating." i do not claim that a creator/designer does not exist only that it has not been sufficiently demonstrated that one does". also the explanations that i have been given for many questions of the origins of the universe/life/everything does not require a creator. if someone gives me a religious creator then (if it is a religion i am familiar enough with) i will make claims. i do not make the argument of "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" only that "absence of evidence is absence of evidence".

  • robertallen1

    What do females have to do with it? And the correct spelling is hypocrisy.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    Well of course it's speculation.

  • PillowhandsMcgraw

    I had absolutely no contact with them previous how do you know I feel the same way perhaps we could have had a valid discussion but you've thrown that out the window.

  • robertallen1

    Fine. Now you know what you want to do and I wish you the best in your study of physics. By precal, I assume you mean precalculus. Are you planning to go further in your mathematical studies?

  • robertallen1

    Why is it so important to you to know "what God he believes in?" You don't even know him and you're already asking him something highly personal. If he wants you to know he'll tell you. Now, that's rude.

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @awful_truth,

    True, that is from the last hour or so, which means after your "friend" @TopDocRocks heated the atmosphere. In other words your friend was heavily trolling - trying to provoke an emotional response from the crowd, and he succeeded.

  • awful_truth

    @Vlatko: There is another side to that coin.
    Athiest: there is no god.
    Deist. I don't believe that, prove it.
    Athiest: I can't, because it is an issue of faith, and beyond the realm of scientific proof.
    Deist: Then don't speak of certainty regarding issues that extend beyond your self limiting explanations.

    Any questions???

  • PillowhandsMcgraw

    I do not believe in any god but I was still willing to hear what you had to say or your experience that brought you to that conclusion.

    By the way my two cents IF god existed wouldn't you expect to see him in all of nature. I mean he is omnipresent.

  • robertallen1

    But you're being sensible. Now, watch old TopDoc either skirt your questions, avoid them altogether, try to jibber-jabber them away or lay on you some new onus which just happens to pop into his "mind."

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/RIIPUZ6RDGGJSIZR55XNO6ZMDA TopDocRocks

    "No God is needed for what we observe" that's what I've been saying. And this observation points to the nature of a Creator/God if one exists...and that is; if a Creator/God exists it doesn't exist in nature. It points to other things too...like if a Creator/God exists such a beings interaction with our space/time has not been on a fantasy/magic level and more on a...well natural level actually. There's a lot that can be inferred from such an observation. And jumping to "Well such a being just does not exist at all" is not the smartest of the inferences.

    Now for the love of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens please OBESERVE that I KEEP saying "if" when I talk about what science can infer about a possible Creator/God (there again the word Possible)...and that I HAVE NOT claimed that such a being exists...AND THEREFORE I DO NOT HAVE THE BURDEN OF PROOF FOR A CLAIM I HAVE NOT MADE!!!!!!!! Man you are vexing Vlatko...I swear you are trolling me....

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    @awful_truth,

    There is no other side. Atheists do not make the original claim, therefore your argument is fallacious.

    If you didn't say there is God in the first place, I couldn't say that there is none. Simple, isn't it.

  • robertallen1

    I have one. Does a modern day atheist state there is no god?

  • robertallen1