Banned from the Bible

Banned from the Bible

2003, Religion  -   241 Comments
Ratings: 6.63/10 from 48 users.

Banned from the BibleWhen Jesus was a boy, did he kill another child? Was Mary Magdalene a prostitute -- or an apostle?

Did Cain commit incest? Will there be an apocalypse or is this God's trick to scare us?

The answers to these questions aren't found in the Bible as we know it, but they exist in scriptures banned when powerful leaders deemed them unacceptable for reasons both political and religious.

Banned From The Bible reveals some of these alternative tales and examines why they were "too hot for Christianity."

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241 Comments / User Reviews

  1. The religions of man have banned two sources of instruction that prove them to be deceivers. The books of Enoch and Jubilees are the only two sources of instructions that allow us to obey the Sabbath commands by formulating a calendar system.
    Chapters 72-82 of the book of Enoch give us detailed instructions to formulate the calendar system used in heaven to identify the true Sabbath of our Father. The book of Jubilees confirms the calendar system of Enoch and commands we obey the count of 364 days to make the year.

  2. If it’s not in the Bible then it didn’t happen. Where did you get the story from? This is a hoax!

    1. You are shortsighted, sir. There are books of the Bible that aren’t even in the Bible ( lost in Egypt, also the Gospel according to Judas. Then there are numerous translations - Latin, Greek, not to mention discrepancies in English, French, German+ that modify the literal meaning / translation. Scholars continue to research these translations and texts and continue to learn more. The Gideons version is just one Bible... there are others that are more accurate.

  3. (155) And [We cursed them] for their breaking of the covenant and their disbelief in the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, "Our hearts are wrapped". Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few.
    (156) And [We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander,
    (157) And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
    (158) Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.
    (159) And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.
    (160) For wrongdoing on the part of the Jews, We made unlawful for them [certain] good foods which had been lawful to them, and for their averting from the way of Allah many [people],
    (161) And [for] their taking of usury while they had been forbidden from it, and their consuming of the people's wealth unjustly. And we have prepared for the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.
    (162) But those firm in knowledge among them and the believers believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you. And the establishers of prayer [especially] and the givers of zakah and the believers in Allah and the Last Day - those We will give a great reward.

  4. (163) Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], as We revealed to Noah and the prophets after him. And we revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Descendants, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the book [of Psalms].
    (164) And [We sent] messengers about whom We have related [their stories] to you before and messengers about whom We have not related to you. And Allah spoke to Moses with [direct] speech.
    (165) [We sent] messengers as bringers of good tidings and warners so that mankind will have no argument against Allah after the messengers. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.
    (166) But Allah bears witness to that which He has revealed to you. He has sent it down with His knowledge, and the angels bear witness [as well]. And sufficient is Allah as Witness.
    (167) Indeed, those who disbelieve and avert [people] from the way of Allah have certainly gone far astray.
    (168) Indeed, those who disbelieve and commit wrong [or injustice] - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a path.
    (169) Except the path of Hell; they will abide therein forever. And that, for Allah, is [always] easy.
    (170) O Mankind, the Messenger has come to you with the truth from your Lord, so believe; it is better for you. But if you disbelieve - then indeed, to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and earth. And ever is Allah Knowing and Wise.

  5. (171) O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs.
    (172) Never would the Messiah disdain to be a servant of Allah, nor would the angels near [to Him]. And whoever disdains His worship and is arrogant - He will gather them to Himself all together.
    (173) And as for those who believed and did righteous deeds, He will give them in full their rewards and grant them extra from His bounty. But as for those who disdained and were arrogant, He will punish them with a painful punishment, and they will not find for themselves besides Allah any protector or helper.
    (174) O mankind, there has come to you a conclusive proof from your Lord, and We have sent down to you a clear light.
    (175) So those who believe in Allah and hold fast to Him - He will admit them to mercy from Himself and bounty and guide them to Himself on a straight path.

  6. The answer is deceptively simple. Saviors come in an endless line. The Biblical Masters were stopped at 'Jesus', who didn't even exist in history (see Richard Carrier, he has a new book on this). The predecessor of 'Jesus' was John the B, and the successor was James the Just, turned into 'traitor Judas'. 'Judas' is the sacrifice in the Gospel of Judas, not Jesus! He is James, who was stoned by fellow disciples, as was Judas in his 'vision' in gJudas. There is plenty of evidence on this for those interested in seeking the truth. I tried to convince Marvin Meyer, but alas, he died too soon.

  7. I'm just so confused, maybe I should add 1+1=2 BUT ALL MY LIFE I was told 2+2=5 now I'm awaken to the conspiracy. I've tried to inform people about Horus in Egypt Jesus is a copy cat from this African Pharaoh.

  8. How Will You Know If I Have Read The Comment Policy Or Not? What I Believe And What You Believe Are So Different. Blasphemy However Is Blasphemy. Look The Word Up If You Are Confused. Thanking God That My Faith Is So Strong I Need Look No Further Than The Bible To Know The Truth. And When I Have Questions...The Scripture Tells Me...Call On Me And I Will Answer Thee...Try Asking God. He Will Confirm His Word Is Truth. In The Mean Time I Am Praying For You Friends.

    1. I have flagged your post for action by a moderator as it contains preaching. This string is not your personal pulpit for spouting your dogma. I suggest you act accordingly.

    2. To be fair, are we not on a web page that discusses a documentary on the beliefs of Christians and Jews? It's kind of unavoidable to discuss such things in relation to religion when that is what the documentary is about.

      Isn't there a U.S. Amendment which gives everyone the Right to Freedom of Speech? Religious people use their Faith as a "Moral & Ethical Compass" for life just as those who do not believe in any religion still have their moral beliefs as well, but someone from either of these parties denying the other the right to speak is extremely hypocritical as well as unconstitutional.

      Some would say that Atheists arguing against the existence of religion & it's preaching, would also be exerting their own religious beliefs on others and are practicing a form of preaching itself since it is their own beliefs about religion being spoken.

    3. Do not pray for me oh little one, how old are you by the way? does your parents know that you are bugging grown ups? And yes no preaching!

    4. You can pray somewhere else this doc site not church.

    5. The bible is a weird combination of texts. The old testament GOD is not the same as the God in the new testament that Jesus spoke of. The Catholics, I don't know if intentionally or unintentionally, hid that fact and went on a burning spree of all Christian texts that weren't part of the Catholic cannon, and Killed those that wouldn't convert to their weird religion. Modern day Christianity actually worship both the evil, waring, lying, wrathful demiurge GOD of the OT and the loving, forgiving, kind God of the NT as the same entity. If they were both the same entity then that would be one schizophrenic and imperfect God.

    6. always rich people want to get what they want , in order to understand the old testament more than 4 times before reading the new one please. too many mysteries to really understand that's why no one understand it.

    7. Please don't pray for me - it creeps me out!

  9. There is good reason we say that 'history is written and re-written by the winners' ; a fair review of the 'books/stories' of teacher/prophets that survived burning, banning, re-writing, etc. might suggest that 'jesus' became a convenient amalgam of at least a few of those teachers. History has taught us another lesson- religions - any religions will not thrive and spread unless it is championed by politics and rulers of the times-for 300 years small jewish sects proclaimed many versions of apocalyptic teachings; as 90% were illiterate anyone could mess with the wording and add to, take away from the stories - and- like it or not, they did - the Christ followers were just one jewish sect admired by some romans who had so many gods, a few more was no big deal (God the father, and the son, and the holy spirit and both Mary's)-It was Constantine who saved the small sect from inevitable obscurity (most biblial scholars agree) starting in 312. Christianity is a roman re-creation, designed to keep the 'masses' of a huge empire suitably sheep like and always willing to war in holy war and always willing to "render unto caesar what is ceasars (taxes, lands, life).

    1. I can't say that history is always written by the winners. A notable exception is Joachim Fest's books on WWII, especially his biography of Hitler which is different from the six or so others I've read--and brilliantly so (and no, it's not supportive). Herr Fest served as an anti-aircraft gunner when he was 17. There's also "The Secretary," a biography of Martin Bormann by Jochen Von Lag which is not only superb history, but very funny as well.

      There's only one thing I would like to add to your comments on Christianity--don't forget the Greek or Hellenic influence as well as the Roman.

  10. the bible is full of lots of unanswer question lots of mystery and suposingly myth and friction and yet we as christian without knowing the facts about what we are told hold to the unfaliable word of god. why all the books of the apostle is not a part of scripture? why a couple of jewish rabbis decided what is accepted and what isn't? the same goes to the NT,when the selected books of the NT WERE decided by the early church fathers, inspite of their biases and there doctrinal motivation, ignoring the truth about nor of the early books of the socal new testiment were writen by jesus disciple? i believe that christian today should have a indept discussion about the fact of what weare told and the reallity of it all and decide on their own.

  11. The "Jesus personality" doesn't "fit" with the Old Testament doctrine. WHY would a "God" limit his self, by having only ONE book? Yet SO MANY STARS! Are you really SO convinced and conceated that YOU are "the chosen one?"

  12. It's not the fault of 'Religion' that it becomes inflexible over time. That's the nature of human social organization. It's probably the most predictable outcome in social science. To understand that and forgive mankind for it's built-in dogmatic calcifying myopia, and hold that understanding in active suspension, opens the opportunity to see things as they were originally and come to your own conclusions.

  13. I grew up in the christian church and believing in Jesus and everything. I still believe in God and have not swayed. But what has me questioning is the holes in the stories and how so many different people over many many many years have translated it and you are not suppose to add or subtract from it so it says in Revelations I believe. So what amazes me is that as a Christian I have been told all my life never to question or think outside of the box because if I do I am doubting God and therefore I leave room for the devil and that the devil will corrupt my mind and lead me astray. Everything that I have read about is not taking me away from God but simply making my faith in God stronger. I don't believe everything I read or hear simply because it comes from a man. We all make mistakes its in our nature. I just look around me and see creation, the miracle of child birth and just so many other awesome things and that is enough for me. ( Not being preachy by the way, just my own personal thoughts). I am open minded and want to continue learning more and more.. What also upsets me is that as humans we fight about what religion is right and who's God is the one and only etc, etc. We kill and destroy in order to get our point across and to me its silly because if we really were to look at the big picture we would see that every religion has an aspect or similarities to each other and why should we banter back and forth about who's way is right and who's way is wrong. Instead why not accept each other for our differences of belief's and maybe open our minds and hear what they other one believes in because maybe we might learn something. The world would be a much more peaceful place if we did not become so self righteous in our own beliefs. I have seen more people get hurt from church or the bible because of it being taught in such a way that controls and manipulates its congregation. The bible whether true or not was not intended to be used this way but rather to teach people about the history of Jesus and God and that there is hope for the world once we die. Instead I have seen it being used as a condemnation tool that condems people to hell for their sinful life and that the standard of living is so high that no one can reach it. Making people feel that they are sinful and that God will not accept you unless you convert unbelievers into believers and if you don't read your bible enough or pray enough your doomed for Hell. I have been hurt by the church and its members myself and no first hand what it is like to feel depressed and confused and tortured by the word of God itself. One thing I question now is why we worship Jesus instead of God the Father, isn't that making Jesus an idol similar to praying to Mary?

  14. LOL!! Really? Too hot for Christianity? Too "hot" for the Bible? Have any of these "scholars" actually READ the Bible? There's lust, betrayal, adultery, lying, rebellion, deception. Too hot??? OMG, it would be funny if it wasn't so lame. The reality is that the Bible -both Jewish and Christian scriptures- is the story of God working in and through and for the lives of real people, people who loved, hated, struggled, doubted.

    Yes, some religious folks have closed minds, but so do agnostics, atheists and everyone in-between. There's a lot of speculation passing as scholarship, i.e. "it's clearly..." and "Some scholars believe.." Few of the experts have the honesty to admit that what they're saying is (as one does) "just guessing". That isn't scholarship.

    There is serious scholarship out there that wrestles with Scripture. This isn't a documentary about the formation/content of the Bible any more than "Angels in the Outfield" is a documentary on baseball.

    For example - they make a big deal about Adam and Eve, and the kids. And it's a b-i-i-i-i-g problem that suddenly Cain has a wife. It MUST be Cain's sister (yuch); she must be Adam and Eve's daughter (double yuch). None of the these scholars even explore that maybe G*d kept creating -maybe G*d didn't stop at Adam and Eve, but kept creating humanity.

    There's wonder and mystery in how G*d worked and works. But it's a real chuckle to think that if you really read the Bible you'd think any of what they have in the "documentary" was too hot or too risky politically to be included.

  15. You should fear what you beilieve. Once you believe in something, you close your mind to all other possibilities. All religion has done throughout history, is divide man and turn them against one another. The truth can be found inside anyone if you understand that god is inside each of us. I enjoy looking at all religions. I wonder how they can all teach the same morals, virtues and hope of an afterlife, yet at the same time, confuse, corrupt and drive us to argue and kill one another, over who's God is the real God. I do not believe God would endorse religion. Although I do believe many people, of all religions, as well as none, do know God. To know God, you must simply know yourself and hold yourself to a standard of love, for all life.

    1. Amen to that!

    2. @Noncoman: Great comment, worthy of rememberance in history. I can only wonder how many people have already stated, and thought the same thing, yet it is never heard, or remembered. Keep up the good work.

  16. Some people must have watched a different documentary than I did. Some of the posts are very preachy and not at all open minded for education at all. Men not God decided what would be in the bible and it was written years after the fact. You can not even start a story in a room and end up with the same story when you get to the end so what makes people think that the stories written by men hundreds of years later will be an exact account. Some people get stuck on a single verse instead of looking at main concepts of the overall big picture.

  17. What is done in the dark would come in to the light; we should not worry to much whats not in the bible and learn what is in the bible, because in the beginning was the word and at the end it would be the word. Life is to short worrying about what is not in the bible because if you do that you would spend the rest of your life trying to find what should have been in the bible and before you know it you would have died never having a chance to get into Gods kingdom because that is what the enemy want you to think to waste your time not to get closer to God. So stop trying and a personal relationship with the father and be born again, then you should see the kingdom of God.


  18. FREE INTERNET DOWNLOAD: "Man's Search For Spirituality by E Christopher Reyes.
    A Chronological presentation of religious beliefs.

  19. Fascinating

  20. The Bible is just one huge compilation of fairy tales and storys designed to control men and subjugate women.

    1. These interpretations are born of our nature. when that nature changes in a natural process of evolution, we will interpret the Bible correctly as documenting the very process. This interpretation not only eliminates all the contradiction that is retained in previous, popular interpretations, but emerges in the very process of eliminating it.

      It's not unusual for thinking people to consider the view that that you have concerning the Bible. It's the result of it having been mishandled in the initial state of our nature. This is the reason the Bible gives warning that "everything hid would be revealed" and for that reason we should be careful what we thought we were hearing. It was known that at the time of change from a base-level convicting conscience to one of increased influence, the true interpretation would emerge.

  21. If these things get under your skin,why bother watching the thing to start with.Is it just to start a debate ?There should be a penalty for ignorance

    1. These are important ideas to think about. It is good to watch these videos. They make you think.

    2. I agree with you Becca,sometimes we need to step outside the box.Thanks for responding.

    3. I completely agree with you. When it comes to these ignorant people, they should be forced to have to pass an I.Q. TEST to reproduce & drive. If they FAIL the tests, they get birth control and a bus pass.

      Also, I wondered why someone would watch and comment on a religious documentary that is specifically about Christianity & Judaism, if the topic bothers them? It really makes other people think that they just want to argue about it & that they want to wrongfully target and persecute as many people as they can that appear to be religious.

      It seems quite unfair & rather hypocritical to tell someone that there is no religious talk allowed on a comment thread that is about a religious documentary.

  22. Not a word of the New testament was written by someone that knew the man names Jesus - Not a single WORD. Go research it. Most of the authors of the Jewish testament (OT) are unknown. All of it is a crock. Just read it - it is full of rape - cruelty - slavery and death. Far more humans ( by the hundreds of millions) have died because of the persecution by the faithful; than believers have ever been killed by others.
    The Self Proclaimed Apostle Paul never knew, saw, or heard Jesus and he wrote the majority of the Christian Testements (NT), This vile book known as the bible has no authority. The Creators only written work is in the creation, no man made book. To deny nature, and the proven evidence of the creators works is to spit in the face of GOD.

    1. These elements are present only in interpretations that hold the Bible to be a description of physical events that occurred long ago. This is the Bible's very way, along with considerable amounts of contradiction, to compel us to discard this kind of interpretation. This must occur first before the true interpretation can emerge.

  23. Not a word of the New testament was written by someone that knew the man names Jesus - Not a single WORD. Go research it. Most of the authors of the Jewish testament (OT) are unknown. All of it is a crock. Just read it - it is full of rape - cruelty - slavery and death. Far more humans ( by the hundreds of millions) have died because of the persecution by the faithful; than believers have ever been killed by others.
    The Self Proclaimed Apostle Paul never knew, saw, or heard Jesus and he wrote the majority of the Christian Testements (NT), This vile book known as the bible has no authority. The Creators only written work is in the creation, no man made book. To deny nature, and the proven evidence of the creators works is to spit in the face of GOD.

  24. there was no sin in him,he was a sinless sacrafice thats what the pasages of the bible say,there always seems to be a refute of some sort when it comes to jesus,we know what it says the world does not know him or accept him,this book is just showing that the bible is true by fullfilling what it says,about the world not accepting him,and what ever scripture we have right now is waht GOD wanted us to have,he is almghty and can preserve his word,and keep the message alive what we need to know for teaching docterine ,and reproving,to make the people of GOD ,acceptable...

    1. Alana,
      I agree with your post. When it is all boiled down we are going to have to give account...just remember for the people out their; their tongue is going to be the life or death of them. It is going to be a good day for some and a terrible day for others...just remember that.

      May Peace be with You

    2. life and death is in the tongue, im thankful for christs new life and salvation he gives all who receive him as LORD and savior!!

    3. Is this a religious doc? Oh yeah it is, at least you came to the right doc. Wonders will never cease.

      What new life and salvation are you talking about?

    4. romans-philemon explains this new life for the new believer, new creation in christ Jesus, we are born with a disobediant rebeliouse nature that cannot please God, we got that in herited when adam and eve chose to disobey and eat of forbidden fruit, they were warned thou shalt die if you eat of this, they not only would die physically but they died spiritually, now all man kind has inherited a evil tendancy to sin and rebel against God, they ate the fruit, , and was given knowledge of good and evil, eve coveted this ability that only God himself had ..and they and we now naturally choose the wrong path, but God had a plan he was a head of satans master plan to destroy all Gods creation, and satan wanted worship for himself.. so he(God) brought his son here to die for us and live a sinless life, a unblemished sacrafice...the first adam sinned and brought death, spiritual and physical.. the second adam (christ) brought life, he was sinless!!so all who recieve him as a savior of the sins(old sin nature) are a new creation who has a nature that wants to please God, and not self although we still have the old sinful nature, that lusts and rebels that is lower than a beast, but when we become saved through the sacrafice of his sinless son we also have another nature within us to obey and love God like his son did while on earth, so we end up with 2 natures the natural man (old man) and the spiritual man(new man in christ) we choose to obey either we wont be happy as christians if we obey our old sinful nature..true happiness comes from obediance to christ wich when we obey the son we obey the father, they are the father sees his sons nature in those who believe they are sinners and need his son as savior, we are covered by the blood of the lamb so we as christians should want to obey the Lord just out of thankfulness for saving our wrethched souls...

    5. @alanastearns:

      I knew I should of kept my mouth shut, I know I did ask, I'll never learn I guess, how many people told you all that gunk, am sure you did not think of all that by yourself.

      You have been polite, even though it goes against my nature with religee's I will be polite also and thank you for your time, but whatever you have been explaining to me, as a man of science, is completely "alien fairy tales" to me, I bid you adieu.

    6. im to give an answer to all who ask, thanks as well for your time .. i have a passion to share christ with everyone...whosever will hear and listen ,the gospel is for everyone, its whoever hears it and belives are the ones who are saved by it ..its like a medicine that youve heard about for your disease but choose wether or not to use it ... i love all with the love of christ to share with anyone....i want to be ready at any moment hope you have a nice day ..alana

    7. @Achems_Razor. Hey, it lost me too, but, I respect your professionalism, and how you dealt with it. A good example for others, regarding disagreement. (good job)

  25. i was created by my parents......

  26. So they took out all of the "Good Stuff" Especially that fact the Mary Mag was the TOP Apostle and not some Hooker the Jesus let tag along. Why did he revile himself to her FIRST? Way was she there to prepare his body? Way did a woman clean his feet? BECAUSE WOMEN WERE IMPORTANT AND CONSIDER High Creations god /Goddess. LOL SILLY FOOLISHNESS WE ALL ARE IMPORTANT I HATE TO SEE SO MUCH MISINFORMATION. BUT YOU KNOW IF they HAD NOT COME IN AND DESTROYED ALL OF THE GREAT text and libraries, and had not changed all of the verse to fit a male dominated world we all would know the truth. That we are all EQUAL.

  27. its good to watch, but just look at things not sophisticated is better though, they were simple people, so look at documents simple, then you see everything make sense.

  28. the bible is man made, the material in it was voted on by a damn committee

    1. yes dude but not all of it i guess, to say thing %100 this way or that like a bird with one wings. take care.

  29. LOOK! The Anunnaki are NOT "reptilian"! I don't know where this retarded idea came from, but if you actually READ the ancient texts or even the bible, it clearly states that we were created IN THEIR IMAGE. They are not reptilian, cause if they were, WE would be reptilian. They look like us, rather we look like them. So if you want to know what the Anunnaki really are as a species, look in the mirror, and imagine yourself 10 feet tall, and living for thousands of years. If you want to spout off about the Anunnaki, at least read the literature, instead of just reciting the drivel you see on the web.

    1. mythology silly

  30. @ toddy

    Maybe the only sensible post here. This documentary is just a bit of Church history; nothing else. These books existed and the early Church had to decide what to do about them. It happened a long time ago. Religion was man's first attempt at abstract thought and trying to understand the world he lived in. Without it we probably would never have begun to study the sciences. Name calling and verbal attacks solve nothing. The theist and the atheist start to sound like two sides of the same coin. You would think we would know better.

    1. very well said this is one of the few places i have seen where there isnt alot of bigotry and name calling going on i think we should just watch see what they have to say if u can learn and take something from it then good if not to each is own.

  31. @ Most of those who posted;
    I felt that you missed what this documentary was about was it was about the books that were not cannonized by the early church wether it was because it ( the book in question ) was basically a repeat of other books or it held views contrary to what they felt was theirs. It is basicaly a group of people saying is this book good yeah but this other one no way dude. To say that the Bible is truly inspired by a higher Deity is a bit of fancy.
    As i have read the Bible in the past from cover to cover and just felt confused, and have prayed in the past to God for things( and to those they weren't selfish in nature) and they have never come to pass, so I feel it may have been in vain. I have had a more Divine revelation if you want to call it when i do a heroic dose of psyliobin mushrooms or smoked some cannabis or such.I have read that those very people the Bible holds in such high regard may have ingested likewise some form of phsycotropic plants and their revelations have become our basis for our religons.

  32. @Rachel-Nicole

    You've learned that the Bible is no more than the secular word of man.

    Congratulations, that's more knowledge than most people pick up in a lifetime.

  33. I guess I never thought of the Bible's orign, but it sorta annoys me about what constitutes the inclusion of a scripture---believability, modernity, etc.... gives me even more to think about.

  34. After the bible was written it was closed that day. A decision need made is a focus on the present. Past historical events remain just that, and are not needed any more. Old lessons are replaced with new modern understandings of what course we need to take today. Not hunderds of years ago. Are we not all logical human beings about to evolve? Dark Age enslavement by rulers of God inventers should not to used as todays role models. That's rediculas for modern man to even think of, or bring into our modern mans future. Awaken to the restrictions set forth holding mankind so far behind by holding on to old silly illogical unsuccessful pathways decideed for you by 500 year old dictators. Look at the amount of those so nieve they select such restrictions for themselves. What's it going to take to see the light of mans future? More religious deaths? Geeze, let go of old Dark Age trickery and kindly evolve into modern day truths. Open uncontrolled personal thought, which does not follow selected illogical historical methods. Awaken kindly into a peaceful future better days.

  35. Do forgive me spelling.

  36. After reading the majority of post, I've decided to reply. Not a single person out of 173 post had enough common sense to see the bigger picture. Children all over the planet are starving. The most innocent of human beings won't have medical treatment today. Where art thou God? Come to me and explain why you allow the only truly innocent to suffer?

    I'll serve and worship you til my death if you'll just answer me. Put your hand on my shoulder and call me Robert. Let me cry to you like a child and tell you of the horrors that go on in this world. I've read your book many times.

    I do believe in your existence but not like the post of the girl Rebeca and the masses like her. Is the Bible real?

    Did you really kill the first born children in Egypt? Have men corrupted your word and changed it? No need to for me to ramble God, You know me and what I feel.

    I'm gonna keep being pissed off at the cruelty that you allow but I will acknowledge that if you're the creator of this world and all that exist, How can I possibly know the why, what, when and where of almighty God!

    1. Rob, you blame God for all the children starving on the planet? Are you serious? God has provided enough food for ALL of us, right now. It's all there. But what are we doing with it? We are exporting most of it to the West where it can sit on the shelves of our Walmarts and Tesco's for a while and then get chucked out because the expiry date is nearing, or the package is damaged, etc.

      As Michael put it, no message could have been any clearer: if you wanna make the world a better place take a look at yourself and make a change!

      Blaming God is an easy excuse for not doing anything about the shit in the world ourselves.

    2. The problem of evil can be solved easily. The free will defense argues that if we lived in a perfect world without any suffering then we would not have any freedom of choice. We would simply be robots as we would always be forced in persuing one single right course of action. We would not be able to choose between right and wrong because no wrongs exist in a perfect world. Suffering allows this choice and, therefore allows for judgement. What would be the point in creating a world full of robots? Suffering affects many of the innocent but this is simply the result of natural evil. It is foolish of us to take such suffering as a personal attack.
      As for your comment on the killing of the first born in Egypt: Exodus foreshadows Jesus' crucifixion. The hyssop stick used to paint the blood on the door posts was the same as the hyssop stick used to extend the wine to Jesus while on the cross. The lamb was to be unblemished (Jesus was sin-free so only he could fight the devil and allow for redemption: First born saved foreshadows this) and the lamb was to have no bones broken. Jesus' bones weren't broken- He was pierced in the side. Jesus is the lamb of God and is the sacrifice that allows for redemption. Exodus is clearly symbolic. Don't take the old testament too literally.
      Sorry for my ramble. I hope and pray that some day you can find God. xxx

    3. it was vinegar...not wine that Jesus was given on the cross. Supposedly of course.

    4. We can find God but to do it we must also not take the NEW TESTAMENT too literally, which is necessary if we are to have an interpretation that avoids contradiction.

  37. I think it's kind of a shame that every documentary with even slight religious content immediately turns into a debate. People sometimes bring in good points on either side, but it does get tiresome after the nth time.

    Anyhow. I liked this one! Being able to see into some of the backstory(or possible backstory choices) of these biblical figures made for a very interesting look at the Bible. In today's skeptical world, I can't help but wonder if it would be more accepted if some of these stories had been left in to explain some of the holes.
    I approve of the 5-year-old Jesus being a total terror. It just makes sense - any kid that age would abuse their power. It makes the Jesus-figure more human, in my eyes.

  38. @Rebecca

    I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are trying to say. If you talk this way it is worse than parables and people won't be interested in God at all!!!

  39. @Rebecca

    The truth about your father and maybe your family but your priest for sure, is that they have brainwashed and brought you up to believe in nothing instead of to question everything and look at the facts on all sides before deciding which is correct.

    We should outlaw such parenting as not allowing/preventing a child form the right to know and right to choose for themselves what is real by raising the from birth to believe in untested and unproven lies and then disciplining them when they think otherwise. Also frightening them with a story of eternal da*-ation if they think for themselves is most definitely CHILD ABUSE. Its like stockholm syndrome is forcrd on you from birth and should be banned!

  40. @Achem's Razor

    You put it better than I did.

    Keep up the good work!

  41. @Rebecca:

    Good grief!! Where did they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump bar" or is it your getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here!!

  42. @Rebecca

    Don't make me laugh.

    Why do you waste your time writing such twaddle--and trite twaddle it is--when you could benefit far more from a course in comparative religion? In case you didn't know it, there are other theologies which are just as invalid as yours.

    Why do you cloak your unfounded individual beliefs in the garb of universal truth?

  43. The Truth about my Father.

    He is unique. That is a word almost anyone can understand in many languages, or levels. Have you ever heard the beauty of the sound of " In The Beginning"? Very beautiful. Very beautiful. Father has a beautiful heart. His heart is only of likeness. Life. He was so excited about Life. Giving Life. Father is completely pure. The world only knows purity by impurities. They can not measure purity in Truth. Father came upon what is now called earth. He was seeking for the place to give life and His Fulfillment. He is very very wise. Intelligent, knowledge,smart, aren't even close to the brilliance of His Being. Wisdom is as High, or Low that we can give it to understanding. Truly that is only another part of Father that is Life. Wisdom can not be measured either in Truth. Truth.... Does anyone really know what TRUTH means? Purity. There is so much about the beginning that is given to us that I could share. But perhaps another day. Or maybe Father may reveal it to you. Mary to whom is the earthly mother, truly found the sweet favor Of My Father. Father knew before she was born in the womb she would be carrying the child of deliverance. Even while she was growing to the age of given He stood near her and all her doings so that she would be prepared for the day of knowing. She did not have sex with another. Nor did she lie to her husband to be. For to my Father they were already and to be married. Father sent an Angel to share with Mary what in her body, her heart and soul begin to know. That she is with child. Angels are what we know to call them, though they be the Family of My Father. The name of Angels have really went many ways these days. " By the way, Father is not pleased with that." The Holy Spirit is apart of Truth. Truth is My Family. Well, My Father and all those who live in Truth. Truth is My Father. He begin everything and every thing there after is apart of His Truth. The Child had to be Pure. There was no way for deliverance other then by the way. The Holy Spirit BY the Beauty of My Father brought forth the child cleanly to Mary. Remember your not just talking about a person down the street. I'm sharing about my Father. I will try to write more. I didn't even see the little show or what ever it is. I just saw the responses, and wanted to at least share a little bit about My Father. He really does care, He really does Love. He wanted us and still does to love Him. Try not to be confused with how the world shows you of a mom and dad, instead I encourage you to know The One Who Made you To Love you. God bless you all.

    1. God knows what he is doing in this world. He allows evil to show people the good in life although it saddens him. He will one day make this world new and there will be no more evil. Only peace and wonder with the Father Almighty. And I can tell you...I can not WAIT until that day. All my questions will be answered and I will be with my father. I will be with the Wonderful One who made me. <3

    2. Your kind of Bible thumping, platitude filled, mostly intellectually meaningless, sing song speech or writing pattern, is exactly THE reason people are so turned off by your particularly nauseating kind of Christianity. Most of what you say is like a psychosis driven, empty headed glorification for the sake of appearing glorifying to others around you. It's like a let's see who can glorify God and Jesus first, most and best contest, every time any so dubbed "Bible thumpers" (like you) I know get involved in any conversation they can figure out a way to turn in that direction. You'll never get anyone, in fact likely only repel most everyone, with this kind of hard sell, evangelize everyone in sight with my kind of crazy, tactic. I do realize that my preaching this back to you will not even be heard or register in the slightest within your brain, more proof that your mindlessly sycophant sort of religiosity, is the personal extension of a psychosis being experienced with and within the fervent mass you associate yourself with...

  44. Jesus when being crucified asked his father for help (God).

    Some people believe Jesus is God because they are from the same spiritual source as are the angels and archangels. Infact some cultures pray to the Saints and Angels. Jesus also states that "I am like the father" many times in the bible.

    I asked a clinically dead person what happened when she died she said that she saw Jesus and she swears they are the same person-don't know about that. They are one in the same but not totally the same.

  45. Why do some people believe that Jesus is God? because these passages say so.

    Don't want to do all your work for you @Tina, but will this time.
    As follows...


  46. @Tina

    You're right. God (if there is one) and Jesus (I believe there was one) are/were two separate entities. However, Jesus was a mere mortal just like all of us and from the few contemporary sources we have, not a very important one in his time.

  47. @Achems Razor

    I think they are separate entities I don't classify Christ with God. Why would God come to earth and be crucified; he would just blow the earth to bits as he already knew humans were and are corrupt. Christ is an extension of God in human form and was created by God himself. Just like he created angels, archangels, humans, animals etc..

  48. @Robert Allen:

    Re-read your post, yes I concede I made some errors, am writing on the fly, on and off PC. sorry about that.
    Have a lot to do so will be off till tomorrow.

  49. Tina:

    You need to read more. Why not start with "The Beast in the Jungle," a short story by Henry James?

  50. I think you should reread my E-mail. I specifically indicated that the material was at best scant, but that I believed that Jesus existed. Perhaps I should have added that this belief is not particularly strong, although shared by a majority of biblical scholars (not that might always makes right)and that I was open to argument.

    Second, my statement about DeMille (note spelling) was with respect to Tacitus, not Lucian, nor even Paramount Studios.

    Third,your statement about some passages in Josephus being forgeries requires amplification. The consensus among scholars seems to be that certain passages were later additions, inserted for ideological and political reasons. I admit that considering Josephus' life, I would not rely on anything either written by or attributed to him.

  51. @Tina:

    It seems you have not got your stories straight, I thought your Christ and your God, were one and the same. Haven't the Christians classed your Christ as a God?

    I guess it still all boils down to the pagan worship of the "SUN" then, which is Gods "Son" the SUN! "Anthropomorphized"!.

  52. Remember Christ forgives God does not.

  53. @Robert Allan:

    Josephus also wrote some words about Jesus, but some of the passages were forgeries, therefore corrupts all that was written by Josephus, so not used as evidence.

    But to make this parody to be as outstanding as a classic Cecil B. De-Mill movie, there has to be much more evidence about Jesus then the mundane hearsay evidence that is at hand.

  54. I believe because in my personal experiences I have had proof. You feel God you don't see him. I believe there is a better life after death who wants to think about dying and having to end it all there. Not everyone has a great life on earth and I would hope that they or I can have a hope of something better.

    @Leonard you are so opposed to the idea of a Christ that I nor anyone could convince you. I do believe that he is better than me as I am humane and have done stupid human things. I for one can't forgive people like he does. Just because you are Catholic or Christian or whatever does not exempt anyone from hell; Nor I nor anyone. We all have to pay for what we do. Do you really think he would like you say - approve genocide, raping of children or war?

  55. @Leonardo:

    I look at it this way: I do not steal, kill, lie (in the flagrant sense of the world), break a promise, deceive (again in the flagrant sense), etc., so what do I need with religion or belief in a higher being?

  56. Based on my experience dealing with Jesus fans, I am not much of one. Here is why:

    1)He claims to be the only way to God. This idea is condescending in its nature. It means that if you don't have Jesus, you are never good enough and automatically guilty if u don't believe. It also gives people the ability to say "when you accept Jesus in your life, you will know what I mean." That little saying and its variations turn listeners into slaves of their consciousness, if a loved one happens to have Jesus and you don't. One son of a deity cannot sistematically preach/teach people to think they possess moral superiority over others.

    2) The golden rule, which means that you are supposed to love everybody as you love yourself is impossible to achieve. It gives people constant anxiety because again, you can never ever be good enough and you are automatically guilty. Love is not compulsory.

    3) It is impossible to determine if a person's actions where the job of satanic possession, the will of God or our freewill. It is impossible thus to forgive yourself and learn the lessons of life since one can't know as a Christian when it is actually your own responsibility for something. It seems like a good fit for the coming of a deity that people can transfer all their sins to.

    4) It seems that he was not a visionary and game changer at all, at least not in what I perceive as his failure to challenge the obvious flaws in Gods commandments. How about don't commit genocide, don't rape children or don't invade countries just because you need its goods? The results of his work is what I perceive as rebranding.

    5) Jesus came to this world apparently to start the transition from the old school Abrahamic dictatorship to a more hippy and less harmful optional redemption sort. It seems to be the dictatorship is still very much live, but it now has a new propaganda machine, a veener of pardon under certain conditions if I may.

    6) Jesus, by calling himself the Son of God, makes people feel inferior to him in a way, sort of like the Tony Robbins of the day. Self Help with miracles that as usual don't quality as extraordinary. In my view he abused the suffering of peoples of a very illiterate part of the world.

    7)One middle eastern desert rebel that puts himself in a suicide mission can somehow serve as the world's scapegoat just seems........ so out of touch with reason, evil, immoral, incompatible with other faiths and too good to be true.

  57. @Achems Razor.

    Tacitus, a historian writing about 100 A.D., briefly tells of a "Christos" who was executed (presumably crucified). However, the term "Christos" is merely a title, not a name, and as such could refer to a number of people; however, my instinct, based on chronology, leads me to believe Tacitus' reference was indeed to Jesus. This mere gloss from a writer known for his love of detail points to Jesus' crucifiction as a mundane, paltry affair and not a DeMille spectacle.

    Lucian, writing about 50 years after Tacitus,alludes to Jesus and the crucifiction, but as satire.

    So there is some non-biblical evidence, however scant, of the existence of Jesus.

    By the way, it might interest you that there are some representations of Jesus' last days which have him tied to, not a cross, but a stake.

  58. @Tina:

    Exactly, if you or we were not there to know exactly what happened, why are you blindly following some made up faith that nobody knows the answers to. You are better off to believe in "Batman" as least it is more with the times.

    And how in a million years can you possibly know what your "Christ" thinks? that is very silly! of course if there even was such a person? there is actually, and emphatically no real proof of such a persons existence at all.

  59. @Achems Razor

    Probably! that's why I read between the lines. I just want to know how Christ thinks not all of the rest. We weren't there 2000 years ago to know what actually happened.

  60. @Tina:

    For you and whoever else that wants to know, the bibles are made up of what the biblical canon wanted included in there accounts, the things that they did not want included because would throw a different light on the subject are all in the following! These are called "Apocrypha" which means "Those that have been hidden away"

    Google..."old testament apocrypha"
    Google..."new testament apocrypha"

    By perusing all this info, anybody can plainly see that the bibles are all man made fiction!

  61. I have never hated nor liked someone based on their creed or beliefs or religion. No one has the right to do so. And I totally do not go by the Old Testament far from it.

  62. I didn't say the bible is perfect I know that there alot of things that are missing from it. I know that they are hidden from us by the Catholic Church. No I haven't researched the above mentioned positions because I'm totally devoted to Christianism.

    But I have been practicing yoga for many years way before it became popular and some of the philosophy s of the Bhagavat Gita. I admire Muslums that pull over on the side of the highway; and at 12 noon kneel on their carpets to pray (I have seen this with my own eyes in Europe).

    I think Paganism and their love of nature is unbeatable. Buddhism is helped us meditate and understand meditation and get away from conventional western society. I think the Jews are number 1 in helping each other as a community. I have travelled with and befriended East Indians and find their love of life exceptional.

    I apologize from my lack of theory but I judge from friends and acquaintances. I think we have alot to learn from everyone. In fact if we did put a bit of all religions and beliefs together we would have one great one.

  63. I mean; I don't mind being judged either as I've gotten used to it.

  64. @Robert
    It's hard to know why some people do what they do; there could be a myriad of reasons.

    I don't being judged either I've gotten used to it.

  65. God and Christ are not about money; he's spirit so he doesn't it. Any religion getting rich on them is in sin.

    Some of the stories in the Old Testament are just stories to help you understand what God is.

    If anyone thinks the Devil doesn't exist there are totally off base. Ask an Exorcist; a real Exorcist which some have died while performing exorcisms.

    I'm Christian and I don't impose my faith on anyone as it's in the New Testament - take it or leave it.

    Don't confuse Christ the man with Religion. It's very offensive.

    1. @Tina,

      Right... Old and the New testament you say. Those are the real ones.

      But what about the Gospels banned from the Bible, and Vedas, Upanishads, Torah, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, Dhammapada, Tripitaka, Bhagavat Gita (in the Mahabharata), Ramayana, Tattvarthasutra, Quran, Tao Te Ching, Analects of Confucius, The Book of Mormon, Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Avesta, Guru Granth Sahib, Egyptian Book of the Dead, Jain Texts, Tibetan Book of the Dead, Dianetics, and... many more.

      Without exploring other major religions you'll never know if the Bible is the right scripture. And something tells me you've done zero research about the above mentioned books. When you do that, focus on science, and then come back read the Bible again. If you stay with the Bible after that journey of 5-6 years I'll bow to you.

      Or you don't need that journey. If not you're weak and you just comfort... nothing more.

  66. I judge all the time and don't mind being judged in return. I like the attention.

  67. Don't confuse the Old Testament with the New Testament. The old testament is Jewish law. The new Testament(even if it's been mutilated by the Catholic church is about Christ). Christ rebelled against strict and corrupt Jewish Priests and did not nor does hate atheists, gays, prostitutes etc... he taught to love each other. If anyone Judges you, they are not really Christians it's Christ who said don't judge or you will be judged.

  68. Well, i have seen this doc and the most important thing that comes to my mind is: Pure Fairytale. But, if we are strict, the same thing can be said about the official stories in bible: how can you say that all the things exposed here are not truth, but the ones in the bible are truth?. You simply cannot make that affirmation; it all turns to faith...every book, every text has to attract the faith, if it doesn´t it simplye becames a fairytale.

    But, if i would like to read some fairytales about Jesus, i would read "Caballo de Troya". Anyway, almost everything about that man seems to me as the creation of highly creative people

  69. Oshionaire:

    The type of peace you contemplate is smug, complacent and stagnant. I'll take turmoil everytime.

  70. Tom:

    Even regarding your representations as "facts," doesn't say much about either religion or mankind in general. At least atheism (or let's essay a more accurate term, perhaps "intellectualism") by its very nature leaves religion in the dust.

    You make a bald statement, "logic isn't everything, you need faith" and omit to mention why we need faith--or would that be approaching the matter too logically?

  71. Oshionaire:

    You chastise man for having a brain--and using it to think with.

    Take it from one who has no serious "philosophical leanings," the term "spiritual truth" is an oxymoron.

  72. Karen:

    The reason for the exclusion of Maccabees (in one of various Enlish transliterations) from the mainstream bible is because the Maccabees were an underground sect--as a matter of fact, the word "macabre" is derived from them. One way or the other, Purim is still celebrated although as a minor holiday.

  73. i wonder if david blaine or someone with amazing slight-of-hand ability were around say, 2000 yrs ago, if they would have been given a cool moniker like jesus, or a neat title like 'son of god'? just curious =p

  74. I appreciate your response. That is the first post you released that wasn't entirely focused on trying to rile me up. It is good to see that that was possible. Good luck to you. :)

  75. @Em:

    Well, you are right about one thing, to have a meaningful discussion between science and religion. is hebetudinous, no heuristic advantage, therefore is futile.

    I do not agree with your saying you are portraying a "secular" version of your "God bless" God bless means just that, your God supposed to be blessing people through you, and again I will say from your "blatant unconvincing pseudo-argument from your vague authority" that I consider "moot"

    So, do not feel like wasting any more time on these unproductive pundits. Will sign off on this discussion.

  76. I would say that I doubt that, as I have been an athiest, a Wiccan, studied the writings of Anton LaVey, and have a degree in religion. I am not trying to play the one up game with you. That is childish and stupid. Not to mention a waste of time. If you feel the way you do, why are you posting on a page about religious topics? Isn't that a waste of your time if you feel like this is all garbage? And again, the constitution protects the right of believers to say what they want, when they want, whether you agree with it or not, just like it protects you and ensures that you never have to participate in it. When you live in a society, that is, in a world with people, odds are stuff is going to happen that you don't agree with. That's life. You can either choose to let it bug you, or you can just say, "Oh well, I disagree." and get over it. Things offend me too, but I let it go. I have better things to do than let other people control how I feel and act. I do what I think is best, and if others don't like it, best of wishes to them. On a side note, saying Bless you is just like a more secular version of be well. If someone wants to wish me well, I'd take it. It's not like I'm trying to put my hand on your forehead and pray over you. I would never do something like that.

  77. @Em:

    I do not have any beliefs, or in other words, religion and philosophy bake no bread.

    I only have empirical evidence, cold hard facts of things that are the way they are, which could change at any time if new and more substantial evidence comes along.

    I really do not care what religion or beliefs other people have, as long as they do not interfere in my space, like spouting your God bless this and that, Or the biggest, if religion interferes with science, which it seems they have from all eternity!

    Ask you some questions?? what if I told you that I "probably" know much more than you will ever know, about all religions, supernatural, or even esoteric knowledge.

  78. @ Achems
    You must not have read what I wrote all the way. I totally agree that there are hypocrites in religion. Like I said, they are in amongst the nonbelievers as well. And again, I am far from "bent out of shape." I enjoy discussing things like this. As I said, it is just a mystery to me why, if you don't believe there is anything out there, why you care if anyone else does? My faith does not effect you...that is unless you let it and choose to have a problem with it, as you have made clear that you do. Unlike you, I am attempting to understand where you are coming from, not bash your beliefs. You say Christians spout all their mindless jargon, but I hate to break it to you, you are doing the same thing from your side of the fence. Instead of blindly taking offense to anyone whose belief differs from your own, why not just ignore it, or, dare I say, try to understand it? That does not mean agree, by the way... Why do you feel the need to let it bother you so much? As far as proving Jesus existed, aside from all the various documents discussing him and his works, Christians live and believe by faith which I would not ask you or expect you to understand, and that is fine. Yeah, I suppose someone from that long ago can never be really proven to exist but you can never prove he didn't, either. As far as God is concerned, it is impossible for anyone to truly prove or disprove His existence. A being that is outside of our perception, space, and time cannot be seen or understood by us. Michio Kaku talks about parallel planes of existence and reality. If those exist, why could one of them not conceivably contain celestial beings? Again, if you choose not to believe what I believe, rock on. But there is no need to try to egg anything on. It is impossible for you to get me riled up. I have been there done that too many times. I am not what you seem to perceive all Christians to be. I am not a militant bible thumper. Sorry to disappoint. If you want to have a civilized and respectful convo, feel free to respond back. But if you do so, please actually answer my questions thoughtfully instead of the banter you've been typing. Ask me some questions, even. Try to understand where someone else is coming from. You might learn something you didn't know prior.

  79. @Em:

    Agression?? you are the one that got all bent out of shape, you figure christians are nice respectful people? a lot of them are basically hipocrites. As per many examples, don't want to sully this blog with the examples! so will refrain.

    Christians have no authority to bless anybody, I take offence to that, as do a lot of people, for one thing there is no such person as your jesus. He never even existed!

  80. Oh, I forgot to add, Christians were given that ability (to bless in His name). Jesus said we were given authority over such things, so yeah, we can say that. No one said you have to accept it though. Kind of like when Muslims say "Go in peace." It's up to you to decide whether or not to do so. :)

  81. Sorry to disappoint, but no, I don't. Having spent many years working in the mental health field, I am all too familiar with people like yourself. Why do you try so hard to offend people who have a different view than your own? Is it that bothersome to you that a group of people want to believe that there is more than just this? That existence is not just a random act of dumb luck on the part of the universe? You must not be a very happy person. All I have said from my first post is that it would be really nice for everyone to act like adults and be respectful of one another's opinions. You don't have to believe in God to be a nice, respectful person. Buddhists don't have a god as such, but they know how to treat their fellow man. Maybe you should get some Zen and calm down with the aggression. To put it another way, accept the fact that not everyone agrees with you and let them think what they want. Why does a Christian's faith bother you so much? Whether or not I go to Church has no effect on your what do you care?

  82. @Em:

    Wow! you really got your panties tied in a knot haven't you? just hate it when religee's say god bless, like they have some kind of vague pseudo authority from above maybe, so keep your suppositions to yourself, Want none of it!

  83. You are truly laughable. Do you really want to pick a fight that badly? Saying "god bless" is far from "pushing." If I said, "I demand that you receive God this very minute" that would be pushing. Again, freedom of religion means I can say that stuff if I feel like it, just like you can say yours. I am not disrespecting your beliefs or lack thereof. There is no need for you to disrespect mine. I have several atheist friends. It is possible to not believe in God and still be a decent person. Unfortunately, there are still many like yourself that are not satisfied with letting people believe whatever and simply remove yourself from it. Just like there are hypocrites in religion, they are also found amongst the atheists. If you really want to talk trash when I am attempting a civil, respectful conversation, then get the facts of both sides before you talk out of your ass and make yourself look stupid. Have a great day!

  84. @Em:

    On one hand you say you do not push your religion, and then on the other hand you say "god Bless" keep your blessings to your self, don't need it, don't want it!

  85. Seriously people? What happened to mutual respect? I am christian and I read and study the bible, but guess what? You don't have to if you don't want to! What happened to live and let live? Judge not? If atheists choose to be atheist, that's their call. Jesus said to share his word, not shove it down people's throats. Faith is a personal thing. If you think it's stupid, that's you problem, don't make it mine. Also, let us not forget that crime happens everyday, all day. Plenty of atheists participate, just as those of religion do. Not one of us is perfect. As far as religious folk imposing our beliefs, I have secularism in my face all day long. What's the difference. Freedom of religion means I believe what I want and can practice whenever I want. No one said you had to stand there and watch. Get over yourselves. God bless. BTW, the ideas expressed in the doc. are interesting, but you can see pretty well why these books were not included in the canon...that is, if you actually crack open a bible and study it instead of flapping your gums about something you have never learned about. :)

  86. Martin.You seem pretty sincere in wanting to know truth from falshood. I am a Muslim who has been reading about Christianity and Islam from the age of eight. I can tell you that as a Muslim I believe in Jesus Christ as a prophet, and that he worshped one God. I also believe that Prophet Muhammad who was also a messenger of God prayed to the same God, the God of Moses and Abraham and the same God of Adam,may He be pleased with all of them.

    You ask why doesn't God show himself? Martin, some people wil not believe whether you show them proof or not, they are just stubborn. Look at how the Jews rebuked Jesus, Moses and even their Lord, despite all that God had done for the Jews they became proud and arrogant. Now we see the Christians doing the same, waging wars on the Muslims now that they have stopped 2000 years of persecuting the Jews.

    God has shown us mnay sign of His exhistence in ourselves and the world we view around us. I don't mean just accept it as having faith, no there are actual proofs that we can see. We also have the prophesies, and the preserved book of God, the Qur'an, free of any discreponcies or contradictions.

    The truth is you have to read and decide if you believe in God, you must think over the verses and ponder. You must recognise your creator in the signs he has clearly given not just to you, but to all mankind.

    Remember, people asked the prophets, 'Show us your miracle if you are sent from God?' And when the prophet showed them, they mocked him and said this is just magic. So some people will not believe whether you warn them or not. But I assure you, that God exhists, and many people around the world find Him every day by reading the Qur'an with an open mind and a sincere heart.

    I hope you too find the peace and longing that I have found.

    Please feeel free to ask me any questions if you want to know more, as it is my obligation as a Muslim to help those who are sincere and have piety.

  87. IMO god is the road to evil. To quote Steven Weinberg, "With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

  88. I don't understand why God would not show himself and prove his existence. Then Satan could prove his existence. Then we could choose.
    I know goodness exists. Maybe it isn't always so clear-cut, but it exists. The issue then becomes whether or not I choose to practise good over evil (call it what you will). It's simple, but not at all easy.
    Believing in something that may or may not exist does not make me a better person. Believing in and practising goodness does. If there is a God, and he/she wants it any other way, then that God isn't worth much.

  89. @Morlann - do unto others as you would have others do to you. It's terribly hard, though the only valid path worth trying.

  90. Satan, the confuser of minds, is alive and well and running fundamentalist Christian churches.

  91. @ Charles B.

    "This Crapumentary is a good example of this diabolical deception in practice. The best lie is the one that has a shade of truth, but misses the mark, or can change the character of God by calling good evil and evil good."

    You're arguing from a false premise. Also, this quote can easily be applied to Christianity.

    "If your question of “What is the purpose of existance?” is sincere, then I would advise you to pray a prayer such as this: “God, you are bigger than all the hype and all the lies and all the fake modes of happiness and the meaningless of my life. If You are real, then prove Yourself to me, and I will believe and follow You for the rest of my life.” God is up for the challenge, I can assure you!"

    This is nothing more than a form of self-hypnosis. I've done it myself and it's very effective for a variety of things. And if you want to you can use it to delude yourself into believing in a higher power and thus you find people who have been "saved" or believed they heard the voice of God. Where I come from, when someone said they heard voices, they were sent to a psychiatrist.

    @ Tom:

    You're overlooking a lot of factors in those studies. For example, on the suicide factor -- the reason why religious people are less likely to commit suicide is because of one reason and one reason alone: fear. Suicide is considered a sin by many religions and many still preach that suicides are damned to Hell.

    Deluding people into doing the right thing through fear is extremely psychologically damning.

  92. All religions enslave and stop spiritual evolution.Only people that are evolved enough can open the door to freedom.When you are ready,then the truth will find you.But most will have to learn the hard way.When you do, the beliefs of the past will seem petty and childish.It isn't easy to find freedom and takes constant studying and physical effort that is forever and never dies.When the gates of knowledge opens it is huge beyond any human can describe.Faith is something you believe in without proof but expected with all religion.Proof is a birth right and if they can't prove it,that is a hint of fantasy.To fear god is another hint that it's fantasy.Good luck waiting for Jesus to save you.He was only human but has already reincarnated which he actually said.not resurrect.

  93. Why not make life easier and just follow the last Testament (revelation) or scripture sent by the One True God? The Qur'an. I have been reading the Bible since I was 8, and now I am 35 and still know the Bible is not from God, as it isn't preserved in the language of revelation, unlike the Qur'an. I believe in Jesus Christ as a Prophet, as do many theologions, but he was not God. God is the One who is in need of no-one, and is the sustainer and creator of all creation. If you are sincere about seeking the purpose of life, read the Qur'an and keep away from arguments for the sake of it.Peace

  94. Why can't science and God (Not organised religion) co-exist?
    What makes these two things so mutually exclusive?
    Science everyday opens up vast new mysteries as many as it solves, and even just the basic bible's metaphor speack in essence. Seriously think about it the "Fruit of knowledge cast man out of paradise", ignorance is bliss. That moment is the exact moment man transitioned into the higher life forms of the planet. Or however you want to quantify what seperates us from animals. Cause it sure as heck ain't the spark of life that seperates us. Which I find interesting that science can't reproduce.

    Interesting documentary but it was nothing I didn't already know. This is an age old debate even back in the 70s with such Novels as 'The Word' among many before it.

    I just wish people would learn the answer isn't in berating one another for what they think, but leading a good life period to thy brother and sister, whether it's to enter heaven, or echoed in time even if just whispers of a great person. That means stop condemning each other for beliefs and work together. The world would be a much better place if people stopped caring who was what, just respect it, as you would want them to respect your believes. Don't preach if you don't want to be preached at.

    Believe or don't believe, that's your choice, just stop forcing your choice on others. This goes for all types.
    If there was a God, retribution for trampling over others will be at hand so stop getting underfoot, if there isn't, then you're just a loser for being a dick about it anyway. Either way, it's lose lose to condemn each other for any reasion short of one's own actions.

  95. christianity is embedded into the psychology of our society. it shouldnt matter if ur religious or not,undertanding these ideas is to better understand humanity. if u think religious ppl are crazy then ur not spiritual or dont understand it properly. try looking at this stuff metaphorically instead of fundamentally.

  96. @Bill

    I could sit here all day and type names of people who have written of Jesus who never saw him nor lived in that era. What they have to say is nothing more than hearsay and that is exactly what you have done. Not one person you mentioned lived during the lifetime of Jesus and everything they wrote was passed along from one to the other. That proves NOTHING. Obviously you have never read the quote you claim is about Jesus so I took the liberty of posting it for you below.

    During the years that we are told Jesus lived and taught there were over 50 talented historians who wrote of anything of interest and anyone of interest. Not one of them so much as mentioned the name of Jesus, not one. You would at least one of them would have written about the thousands who would follow him and get healed and certainly they would have written volumes about the graves bursting open and the dead rising, walking into the city to show themselves to the living. What historian would ignore that?! In fact, that little ditty is only mentioned once in the entire NT by just one disciple and that is the only record of it to be found anywhere. Even Paul never mentions that fantastic ‘miracle’. You come on here dragging out men who came much later in history who are parroting what they have heard. Hearsay will not even stand up in a court of law and that is all there is to prove your religion and your god. The bible says the fame of Jesus abounded and still not one historian of his day put pen to parchment to write one word of him.

    Tacitus born 56 AD honest theologian or scholar in their right mind acknowledges the oh so obviously forged verse in Josephus as legitimate.
    Lucian of Samosata…born 120 A D
    Suetonius…born approx 75A D

    Mara Bar-Serapion….wrote his statement 73A D or later and he never mentions Jesus by name. “What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given” (quoted by F. F. Bruce, The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?

    70 A D was not the first time Jerusalem was sacked and it was not right after the death of Jesus that the Romans sacked it the final time but almost 40 years. Maybe he is talking about someone else in a prior destruction, huh? Jeez, you people will stop at nothing to prove the unprovable. We know men such as Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, George Washington and Voltaire lived due to the fact that many historians and authors of their day have written about them and have produced proof postitive of their lives.

    BTW, are you related to Fred Phelps of Westboro Baptist???? You could pass for one of his offspring.

  97. @ Epicurus

    Your discourse was rational and logical; the weight of it should be considered by anyone interested in knowing the truth. Banned from the Bible clearly establishes that a collection of men, called togehter under the auspices of governmental authority, formulated and declared the book to be from God. You have a lot of patience, taking the time to provide clear, and specific responses to various comments. Your thoughtfulness is appreciated.

  98. Well, it's funny to read this site from top to bottom. It adds weight to the old saying that to avoid an argument stay away from religion and politics. It would be nice to have a discussion about religion without the name calling or sarcastic remarks which usually are made out of one's passion for their belief (whether it be religious or atheist), or to fire someone else up and get into an argument rather than a discussion. I'm glad that every now and then the documentary was included. However, I think that some need to look at their tolerance level. Religious conflicts have been the root of many wars and killing, but instead of blaming the religion, blame the people. Tolerance and respect go along way. Also, remember that religious and science texts were written by people who are quite capable of both making mistakes and putting in some unintended bias. To those who are religious, good for you, and I hope that you question the TEXTS AND TEACHINGS in order to make sense out of the world and your spirituality. To those who are not, good for you, and I hope that you question the THEORIES (highly supported as they may be) in order to make sense out of the world and your perception of it. I just worry that it's the petty arguments of those needing to be "right" that is the real problem, not whether or not a person is of the right religion or of no religion.

  99. I find it funny that this documentary doesn't really talk about the requirements and criterias that the church leaders had for a canon to be included in the Bible.
    Say for example for the new testament:
    - it had to be written within the first century (the person that claimed to be the writer of the book had to be alive at the time the book was written).
    - it had to be written by an eyewitness of Jesus
    - it had to not be contradictary to other books included

    that's just some of them.
    I could mostly tell from just a few sentences mentioned in each of the books why it was not included.

  100. Chris,

    Mithras was originally a Persian god, whose cult travelled through Armenia, Georgia, Asia Minor to Roman Empire and established itself there, naturally changed in comparison to the original. It is also known that Manichaeism, one of the main Iranian gnostic religions, considered the Mithra-yazata or Mihryazd (a semi-god, or angel) the saviour of the "First Man" from the "demonic darkness" in the 3rd century AD. In the Avesta he is one of the Ahuric Triad.

    Just tried to do a bit of research.

  101. These monotheistic religions are more captivated by their stories rather than real teachings. Just believe in the stories and you will be in good hands, despite committing forbidden acts. You will eventually go to heaven. How childish.

  102. Banned from the bible... That's enough to make me wanna read some comments...LOL!!!

    Jesus is God, God is energy, energy is light, light is everything, God is EVERYTHING and EVERYWHERE. You are GOD!

    Isn't that awesome!

  103. @Epic

    I must be VMAT2 positive ;)

  104. @BBC i respect this "other opinion" however when it comes to science and logic, adding an unnecessary entity to explain something which shows no evidence for that thing is not the way to honestly question the world.

    the VMAT2 gene isnt specifically for a belief in god. it just means someone with a higher allele frequency in that gene would be more susceptible to superstitious belief of any kind. the belief in a god would be a "socially acceptable" method of superstition, thus making it one of the more likely held superstitions.

  105. @Epic,

    "Some scholars have suggested that religion is genetically “hardwired” into the human condition. One controversial hypothesis, the God gene hypothesis, states that some human beings bear a gene which gives them a predisposition to interpret episodes as religious revelation. One gene claimed to be of this nature is the VMAT2 gene"

    The Bible says, "God has made everything beautiful in its time. [He has also set eternity in the hearts of men]; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end" (Ecclesiastes 3:11).
    - Is it possible that this is the reason for the "VMAT2 gene"? The Bible also says that humans are created in the image of God. That would mean we bare His resemblance (Bible says God is spirit and unseen; so it would not be physical image or resemblance. But perhaps the ability to reason, think, love, etc.), and this is what is "hardwired" in us?

    I understand what you are saying, in your comment above. It makes logical sense. I am just presenting another opinion.

  106. @MemyselfandI

    Your argument begs the question. Please conduct proper research from accurate sources before posting. There was no Mithra Christos. There was a Roman god known as Mithras, who was identified with Sol Invictus, but he was never known as "Christos."

    The cult of Mithra Christos died out because it wasn't able to sustain itself, especially once Theodosius outlawed all pagan religions. But even before that, it was dying out, though it did see a short revival during the rule of Julian the Apostate. They're not even close to the same thing though.

    Referring to Mithraism specifically, not all pagan religions. Mithraism was dying before the Edict of Thessalonica (which made Nicene Christianity the religion of the empire) was ever even thought of. Granted, the Edict did drive the final nails into Mithraism's coffin, but didn't actually directly cause the "death" of Mithraism alone.

    Recommended resource: Roman Cult of Mithras by Manfred Clauss

  107. There is general agreement among cognitive scientists that religion is an outgrowth of brain architecture that evolved early in human history. However, there is disagreement on the exact mechanisms that drove the evolution of the religious mind. The two main schools of thought hold that either religion evolved due to natural selection and has selective advantage, or that religion is an evolutionary byproduct of other mental adaptations. Stephen Jay Gould, for example, believed that religion was an exaptation or a spandrel, in other words that religion evolved as byproduct of psychological mechanisms that evolved for other reasons.

    Such mechanisms may include the ability to infer the presence of organisms that might do harm (agent detection), the ability to come up with causal narratives for natural events (etiology), and the ability to recognize that other people have minds of their own with their own beliefs, desires and intentions (theory of mind). These three adaptations (among others) allow human beings to imagine purposeful agents behind many observations that could not readily be explained otherwise, e.g. thunder, lightning, movement of planets, complexity of life, etc.

    Some scholars have suggested that religion is genetically "hardwired" into the human condition. One controversial hypothesis, the God gene hypothesis, states that some human beings bear a gene which gives them a predisposition to interpret episodes as religious revelation. One gene claimed to be of this nature is the VMAT2 gene

    Dr. Frans de Waal and Barbara King both view human morality as having grown out of primate sociality. Though morality may be a unique human trait, many social animals, such as primates, dolphins and whales, have been known to exhibit pre-moral sentiments. According to Michael Shermer, the following characteristics are shared by humans and other social animals, particularly the great apes:

    "attachment and bonding, cooperation and mutual aid, sympathy and empathy, direct and indirect reciprocity, altruism and reciprocal altruism, conflict resolution and peacemaking, deception and deception detection, community concern and caring about what others think about you, and awareness of and response to the social rules of the group".

    De Waal contends that all social animals have had to restrain or alter their behavior for group living to be worthwhile. Pre-moral sentiments evolved in primate societies as a method of restraining individual selfishness and building more cooperative groups. For any social species, the benefits of being part of an altruistic group should outweigh the benefits of individualism. For example, lack of group cohesion could make individuals more vulnerable to attack from outsiders. Being part of group may also improve the chances of finding food. This is evident among animals that hunt in packs to take down large or dangerous prey.

    All social animals have hierarchical societies in which each member knows its own place. Social order is maintained by certain rules of expected behavior and dominant group members enforce order through punishment. However, higher order primates also have a sense of reciprocity and fairness. Chimpanzees remember who did them favors and who did them wrong. For example, chimpanzees are more likely to share food with individuals who have previously groomed them.

    Chimpanzees live in fission-fusion groups that average 50 individuals. It is likely that early ancestors of humans lived in groups of similar size. Based on the size of extant hunter-gatherer societies, recent Paleolithic hominids lived in bands of a few hundred individuals. As community size increased over the course of human evolution, greater enforcement to achieve group cohesion would have been required. Morality may have evolved in these bands of 100 to 200 people as a means of social control, conflict resolution and group solidarity. According to Dr. de Waal, human morality has two extra levels of sophistication that are not found in primate societies. Humans enforce their society’s moral codes much more rigorously with rewards, punishments and reputation building. People also apply a degree of judgment and reason, not seen in the animal kingdom.

    Psychologist Matt J. Rossano argues that religion emerged after morality and built upon morality by expanding the social scrutiny of individual behavior to include supernatural agents. By including ever-watchful ancestors, spirits and gods in the social realm, humans discovered an effective strategy for restraining selfishness and building more cooperative groups. The adaptive value of religion would have enhanced group survival.

    @bbc, im sorry i wont argue with someone who tells me plain faced that god spoke to them...there is no use.

  108. i believe firmly in God and that faith gives me peace and if somebody thinks that is unintelligent that is their damn business! not only is there God ..but man needs God...some feel this need more acutely than others, but at one stage or the other in our lives it shows up! ...if this were not so, God would have been disposed of a long time ago..he would have simply gone out of fashion. i also believe that the reason for the proliferation of religions in the world is .either due to speculation, where man is trying to explain his need for God his own way...or due to due to fraud and ambition..where man tries to pervert the truth deliberately in order to win fame and a following...but there is only one true way, since if God exists it makes no sense for him to throw the whole world into confusion with different ideas of truth, and that way is the one who had the boldness to say " ..i am THE way THE truth and THE life" and to say " ..for this reason came i into the world bear witness to THE truth". atheism would never prevail no matter how attractive it is to the reason..for the very simple fact that it is an offense to God and it is contrary to and ignores the natural innate " spiritual" instincts of man.

    @ BBC, good for you man....God does speak through the bible and he inspired the compilation of that book..regardless of what the motives of men may have been or how shrouded the origin of the texts may be....and thank GOD that finally somebody understanding the distinction between the corrupt religious system and practices of this world and those who run it,and the rich, fulfilling personal relationship which exists between God and a believer.

  109. I still say that the essence of ALL the religions I have studied is to:- treat others as you would wish to be treated. but very few actually admit that, let alone live by it, when we all practicew this, we will be living in utopia. which is what we all want in the end wether it is in this life or afterwards as a lot of religions seem to believe.

  110. @Epic,

    I never believed in the Bible, I viewed it the same way that most of the people on here view it. I had people preach to me, and i was not as nice as most of you on here are. I was extremely nasty towards them. I started reading it to know what i was arguing against. To prove these "brainwashed, Bible thumping morons" wrong. I experienced a pulling on me one day to not do something wrong. Not sure why, but i assumed it was God. So i told Him to F**k Off! It was at that moment that i experienced rage, and confusion that i had never experienced before. I could not clear my head, felt like bombs were going off in my brain. Then God speaks to me. He said, "you have a good seed planted in you, do not let it get snatched away". I was over come with complete opposite of what i was experiencing, i had peace and calm. I then had a feeling that this was from the Bible. So i picked it up to see, and i had skimmed over only a few chapters over a few weeks. This came from Matthew 13 which i had read prior, and had only been looking at the Bible for maybe a week. I was filled with Joy, as i discovered that the Bible is how God communicates to humans.

    For me to think of that at that time was definitely not coming from me. I was not wired to give the Bible any thought in anything i did prior to this. I am a skeptic, and I continue to study the Bible, and scrutinize it. I still question my experience, but i can not deny my experience, because of how real it was. My life has been totally transformed, and i have experienced God in many ways since then.

    Now many will say to me the things i hear them say to others. But that does not change my experience. There is a difference between superstitious religious people, and people who really believe. Jesus makes mention of them also; He says, "Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers" (Matthew 7:22-23)!

    Now i do not have a PHD, nor am i goat herder. I am just a skeptic who had an experience, and i continue to question, and test my experience and knowledge. I am very interested in science, and i like to engage in discussion, to invoke thought, and challenge thought. And to challenge myself, this is what brings me to TDF.

    Religion does not save people (spiritually speaking), and religion does cause many wars, and quarrels. Just look at the forums here it is the religion of Atheism vs. Theism, Christianity vs. Islam, etc...

    In my opinion the Bible was not written to use religion to control people. The Bible was used to make known the God it speaks about, who He is, what He has promised, and what He has purposed and planned for mankind. Man has taken it, and used it to control people, get rich, and play god to men.

    We (mankind) can do this with any Book or idea, its who we are. We are corrupt at our very core. If we examine our motives honestly we should be able to see this. However, it is quite hard to be honest with ourselves.

    This is just a little insight into who i am. I tried to keep it to a minimum, but i tend to ramble as most of you know.

  111. @BBC well its good you asked me my profession because that will give you a good idea as to why i will answer how i do. I am currently going for my masters in evolutionary psychology on my way to getting my PhD.

    now if i had an experience like those goat herders i would certainly think it was an illusion and i would question it as much as even more so....if i found a book that told me some people had that experience and it was at a time on the planet when many many stories and myths like this were occurring would i believe it??

    no you have to be completely gullible and ignorant of history and the human psyche to believe it. it seems more likely that the people who believe are victims of their cultural surroundings/teachings and are comfortable in the pseudo-answers their brand of religion (delusion) gives them.

    Religion was most likely a necessary step in our social and psychological evolution, however like a child with a security blanket or pacifier, its time we are weened off or it will start to hurt us even more than it has.

  112. As a pagan watching this documentary, it was very interesting. It also confirmed my belief in the gods jesus being the son of a god was a demigod, and the angels themselves were also gods as worshiped before christianity, the 'Devil' (another god) had the right idea give humans the knowledge `cos to leave them "innocent" like a child was downright childish. I do believe a MAN called jesus lived and the stories I`ve read all lead me to the same conclusion that he was trying to tell the people to treat each other kindly and that the very strict rules they were following were only man made and they didn`t come frome their ONE GOD so as a free thinking human being I like to believe in the many gods as that suits me better. thanks for an entertaining evening and good night to all. M

  113. @ MemyselfandI

    Very good post.

  114. Shame they don't mention the fact Constantine caught and survived the plague that killed 50% of the population. It scared his brain and left him an insane despot worse than any 10 Hilter's put together. According to Christianty he's a saint, what a joke. He hired the Visigoth army to sack Europe in exchange for returning it to Roman rule via his created and enforced religion.

    The word Christ is a pagan term in reference to the sun. The cross in the sky is the cross constelation. Nothing to do with the religion that became Chrsitianity, but Constantines existing religion of Mithra Christos. Which Christianity is a near duplicate.

    Genesis originates from the much longer more detailed Sumerian creation myth. The god of Genesis is called El of the Elohim. Chief god out of a pantheon of lesser ones. Into drunken orgies. Had two wives, one of which Jerusalem is named after. The father of Baal, and 100% pagan in origin.

    The four gospels are actually anonymous. They have no idea who wrote them, and they are not old enough to be eye witness acounts. When the Roman emperor Constantine paid for the bible, being a living god, sure it was inspired by a god. ;)

    The book of Enoch was not excluded from the bible, the bible revolves around it. That is where they got the Earth is shaped like an oblong box, the sun revolves around the earth, and the sky is a solid barrier with holes in to allow the light of the sun, moon and stars, etc, codswallop.

    Amazing amount of twisting of and skipping the facts going on here. It was the barking mad St. Augustine in 400ad who decided to include Revelations. It was originaly clasified as a relic from Animism, and bears no resemblance to Johns known style of writing, including the strokes. Typical apologistic, earning a living at it, theologist codswallop.

    Religons are nothing but poison. The invention of the ruling elite to supress and control the population into not murdering them, using emotional blackmail via bronze and dark age fairy stories about giant invisible magic beings interested in your sex life. It guarentees they get a steady supply of compliant idiots to manipulate.

    How come it never occurs to people that an unsubstantiated indoctrinated idea that needs and used the death penalty for disagreeing, is up to no good.

  115. @Epic,
    Just Curious, your obviously not a goat herder. Not sure your occupation, sorry. But you being a ________. What if you had an experience like one of these goat herders? Would you believe? Then after believing would you come on here and start sharing with all the people who do not believe?

    Or would you chock it up to superstition? And just ignore it. You do not need to answer these questions, its just some food for thought.

  116. lol i was with cosmic cop until he started talking about space lizards that rule the world.

    im an atheist and realize the the goat herder stories are nothing but mindless fabrications of people who had no idea what was going on with reality....but how can you justify this stupid reptilian nonsense when there is just as much evidence....none.

    no matter what day and age we live in the ability for the human psyche to develop odd superstitious beliefs will be consistent and will forever astound me....

    PS....we need more psychology documentaries...particularly BF Skinner experiments.

  117. Campfire stories told in Medieval times, , , where the creditability of man, in the times where bronze aged Barbarians where Killing Man for Sport, in the time the earth was thought to be Flat. Comes The Goat Herders,,, ((Touched in the head)) by God and surely creditable! Telling us of things that cant be known to man kind. The True Word of God… And not one word of the Reptilian aliens, also known as the "Anunnaki" or the "Reptilians," that still rule the Earth to this day… Good Grief…
    As a child of 8 saying ( back when I was just a kid.) We to as humans in this modern day, we are starting to know just how much we don't. Getting past the lies and myths started by early man. Then through our parents (left to us to out think), this world they leave us to fix. Will we still pursue a belief in God?
    I truly do hope we as humans do evolve into intelligent beings. Guided by reason and science, freed from religious dogmas, motivated by an appreciation of life and the lives of others, seeking to reach goals of human happiness, freedom and understanding on this earth, in this life!. AND Not to live life for death.

  118. @Achem,

    Hahaha i love you man.

    The highest rate of divorce is among "professed" Christians.

    "Is God just about unconditional Love ???"

    C.S. Lewis says,
    "By the goodness of God we mean nowadays almost exclusively His lovingness; and in this we may be right. And by Love, in this context, most of us mean kindness- the desire to see others than the self happy....What would really satisfy us would be a God who said of anything we happened to like doing, 'What does it matter so long as they are contented?' We want, in fact, not so much a Father in Heaven as a grandfather in heaven, ...whose plan for the universe was simply that it might be truly said at the end of each day, 'a good time was had by all.'" (C.S. Lewis, The Problem of The Pain; New York: Macmillan, 1962, pg.39)

  119. @Tom: Yes, life is more than just science. But do I have the need to be "specially created", or have something supernatural that created me?

    Just because something is "more practical" doesn't make it right (morally or intellectually). It's part of growing up - learning truths that are hard to swallow, but once you do, you come out stronger.

    I think I have thought more about the purpose of my life than any believer, and I am proud of that. Proud to be able to think about things like the meaning of life without feeling the urge to commit suicide or resorting to a simplistic answer.

  120. @ oshonaire:

    All you are saying than, God is strictly a manifest of human thought and actions. Completely man made, in Mans image of all Man's frailties,
    and power struggles to gain dominance over fellow Men.

    God is no more godly than than Santa Claus.

  121. @ franck, i always concern myself with Jesus christ and God and not the actions of religious folks...when pope urban II declared the first crusade and thousands of knights descended on palestine for a blood feast sure jesus was not marching in front of that army! the same jesus who would not have peter defend him when he was arrested saying" he who lives by the sword dies by the sword".....

    religion has done much harm to mankind ..there is no doubt, but there is also no doubt that it has also exerted a beneficial restraining and civilising influence...i know definitely though that everyone who has ever had a personal spiritual encounter with Jesus christ has exhibited manifest improvements in lifestyle.
    @ achems razor,
    as for the old testament blood curdling stories, God deals with people at different times in ways he deems fit..if, for instance, God wipes out an entire village: men, women and children..he does so, not out of arbitrariness, malevolence or sadism, he does so in fulfilment of demands of his fixed laws of justice and to accomplish his own higher purposes, as sovereign of the universe and supreme law enforcer..he is not interested in how his public image is faring, wether people like "achems razor" approve of him or not..he is not some mayor elected into office who must please everybody and will be held accountable by everybody..he is sovereign..his Love is not some santa claus - like, indulgent,type of is love balanced with justice, discipline, absolute wisdom and foresight.

  122. @ Tom:

    Well, they do go insane! Since we are talking about religion et al:
    Why are people blowing up places and other people with C4 strapped around there waists.
    Is it because of there 72 virgins. Killing in the name of God.

    I don't care how you cut it, religion is religion!

  123. Why does it works for so many? People reading the OT's blood curdling tales must go insane but they don't ! You can not understand the true message of God without faith! You want to understand religion with scientific method, rigorously applying logic and demanding irrefutable evidence! Logic is not everything , you need faith too!.
    Otherwise , till death you will never be convinced because you applied the wrong tool for understanding a problem ! I can't see any difference between a logical machine and a rational atheist! Being a human is more than being logical! Religion is more practical not atheism.

  124. Religion: The perfect theory.

    1. It is impossible to prove or disprove.
    2. If you don't comply, you have the small chance to spend eternity in a bad place.
    3. It evades any kind of reason or logic through its own definition.
    4. You can justify anything with it.

  125. @ Tom:

    Have you even read the OT? there are some real gems in there about how religion does so much good. Gods love and all that.

    Blood curdling tales that would turn a persons stomach. And "God" should leave them kids alone!!

  126. Is God just about unconditional Love ???

  127. @Tom,
    Is it possible that this comes from Anthony Robbin's & Wife relationship seminar ??? i'm asking this because someone i knew came back from one of those seminars, and argued these same points with me a while back (mid '90 ? )anyways, i can easily believe some points even being Atheist, but i personally have only one problem with religion, it's the wars in the name of your Gods that kills me. Sorry.

  128. @ Tom:

    Religion does more good, than harm????

    That's all I am going to say. You figure it out.

  129. Again, you are seeing the negative side and ignoring the fact that religion does more good than harm. As far as validity of any religion is concerned , it is impossible to prove whether a religion is right or wrong through logic and evidence. You want to apply the cut throat scientific approach to verify the truth of a religion, then my friend sorry that would never help!.

  130. @Tom: And you're statistic comes from where ... ?
    Nice copy-paste by the way.

  131. @tom....just because belief in fairy god mothers makes one more likely to be happy doesnt make that person correct with their look on history and reality. we arent arguing what makes one happier.

    also you could look at the prison population and tell me how many of those people are religious and were religious when they committed their crime as opposed to atheists, also go to universities into fields that require high IQ and you will see a drastic drop in religious people.

    your stats dont do anything to put forth the argument for any religion being valid. only that the world is a scary place and having a fairy god mother belief makes one more "hardy"

    @BBC im sorry i failed to see your point.

  132. Atheist have a negative outlook on religion, they only want to emphasize the bad and ignore the good:

    1- Alcohol Abuse

    * Highest amongst those with no or little religion .
    * Approx 89% of Alcoholics had lost interest in religion during their youth.

    2- Drug Abuse

    * Joseph Califano, then head of Columbia Uni's Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse, released results of a 3 year study showing that in 80% of crimes, alcohol and drugs were implicated and then went on to say that religion was key to rehabilitating from drug or alcohol abuse.

    * Harvard Professor Richard Freeman released a study showing that regular church attendance is the primary factor in preventing African-American urban youth from turning to drugs or crime.

    * Faith based prison programs have also reduced recidivism (repeat offenses) from 20% to 8%.

    4-Depression and Stress

    * Studies have found that high levels of religious commitment correlate with lower levels of depression and stress.

    * A Gallup survey has respondents with strong religious commitment twice as likely to describe themselves as "very happy".


    * People who do not attend church are four times more likely to commit suicide than frequent church attenders. Lack of church attendence is the strongest correlation with suicide rates.

    6-Family Stability

    * Studies have found a strong inverse correlation between church attendance and divorce. One such study found that church attendance is the most important predictor of marital stability .

    7-Marital and Sexual Satisfaction

    * Church attenders are more likely to say they would marry the same spouse again and church attendance predicts marital satisfaction better than any other single variable .

    * The 1994 Sex in America survey found that very religious women enjoy a higher level of sexual satisfaction in their marriage than non-religious women.

    8-Physical health

    * Church goers have lower blood pressure, less complications in birth, better chances for survival after heart attacks and heart surgey and longer life.

    Religion survives because it does more good than bad , atheism does not offer anything that can replace religion.

  133. @Epic

    I see a man who is making fun of Christians, because he does not believe. He mentions the cross, and a man with "distinguished personage". What was distinguished about him? Maybe there was some hype about him.

    I told you that this man sounds like many anti religee's. Maybe you should read it all again one more time.

  134. @Epicurus

    People see what they want to see, in all areas of life. It's all in perspective.

    So how does one look at something without allowing their presupposition to cloud what they see?

    Christians are labeled brainwashed, most are. But perspective my friend all comes from within the individual. All humans choose what they want to believe, based on how they interact with the world around them, and the knowledge that they choose to accept.

    I am sure there are still people in the world who think the world is flat. They chose to have this thought, and ignore the evidence. They would argue that i walk on it, and that they see the horizon is the edge, so there must be a drop off. Therefore, the earth must be flat. Though they see, they do not see. They lack perspective.

  135. @BBC you have supported our claims with the historians you mentioned.

    the only two that arent proven forgeries are merely people mentioning christians and a man they followed. if that man had actually done any miracles they would have recorded those as well. they clearly state that the people and their beliefs are superstitious.

    they even mention that the christians only take their beliefs on evidence whatsoever.

  136. @BBC:

    It is well-established that the pair of documents from the time immediately after/around Christ's days are falsified (Josephus being the most well-known fake). The other on your list are not contemporaries of his. There is not one single first-hand-account of a man named Jesus ever having lived. Of course, there are the Gospels, but they have an obvious conflict of interest, and are not (nor do they claim to be) first-hand-accounts.

  137. "Why do atheist’s care about religious matters , because they don’t have nothing in their nihilist , abhorrent and stubbornly childish stand! Always swaggering around sniffing out other’s religions like a dog starving,suffering from rabies and barking
    about the matters they don’t have not even a slightest idea !"

    We care because religious matters are destroying the world.

    "Matters they don't have not even the slightest idea !" How would you know what I do, or do not know? I do know that you cannot even get to grips with simple English syntax, however. I would almost guarantee I know more about the subject matter of religion/Christ/Christianity than you do, my friend.

    P.S.: You only support our side when you reply with nothing but a simple ad hominem (look it up) comment. You have no argument, and you are aware (at least subconsciously) of that. This is why you respond with only comments such as yours.

  138. Not entirely but as long as I get my acid trip I will wanker with it.

  139. @Joe

    Based on the above comment, I would conclude that you do not believe in string theory. Oops, would that be using logic and truth? ;)

  140. Jesus Christ!

    How can any intelligent and learnt person use Tacitus and Lucian as proof of existence of Jesus?

    For Christ sake, they only mention him to record and to describe a pestering little religion called Christianity who just happen to followed the teaching of alleged JC.

    It's all about FAITH, my delusional Christians. Don't be tempted by evilness of logic and proof.

  141. @Achem
    Of all the people i mentioned, you comment on Josephus? Pretend i never included Josephus' name. Then read the quotes from Lucian (Greek satirist), and Tacitus (astute Roman historian). There is references there for you.

  142. @ BBC:

    No, there is no proof. Josephus was proved a forgery. But religee's still hold it as truth.
    All you have to do is Google, but then depends what websites you get as you know.

    For one thing the Romans where the most astute lawyers in the world, with the most astute legal system in the world, they where the law-bringers, much of which we still use today. they would never go against the law and kill some one without a trial.

    This query alone that I brought up could be a major discussion on its own.

  143. Yeh, so now that you have your recorded history straightened out. Oh that's right, we count the years from Christs life on earth. 2010 after death ring a bell.
    I liked this documentary because it discussed books that are seldom mentioned. I found it odd that the authors did not include the book of Ester or others mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls. I look forward to the rest of the scrolls being deciefered as the first 800 pages although it read like an almanac gave insite into the lives of the Essene people and the thinking at that point in time. I find it very interesting to compare these literary works. Moreover, I hope there are more discoveries to be found to enlighten us about the past and clear up some of these mysteries/controversies and perhaps help us gain back lost knowledge.

  144. @Achem,

    There is a famous Roman historian named Cornelius Tacitus. In his Annals chapter 15 verse 44, he makes mention of Christus. I have posted it below, feel free to look it up. There are Jewish historians like Josephus, there is Lucian of Samosata, Suetonius, Mara Bar- Serapion was a stoic philosopher who wrote a letter to his son about the wisdom of Jesus.

    "But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiation of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed."

    Lucian of Samosata is funny because he sounds like many non-religees,
    " The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day- the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account.... You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property" (Lucien of Samosata- The Death of Pelegrine; In the works of Lucian of Samosata. Trans. H. W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols Oxford U.K., Clarendon, 1949)

    This last guy is a satirist and he sounds like many people on here who bash theists. Because he does not believe.

    Just curious if this is proof enough for you, could Plato and Aristotle were not at the time of Christ, so i was not able to find anything by them as proof ;)

  145. attempting to explain them to me is more like attempting to explain the Hindu religion to you.....they both are void of any evidence or logic.

    to say something as absolutely illogical as: "you will not believe until all is clear to you..but all will not be clear to you until you believe..sorry that is the nature of our faith..those are Gods terms."

    that is just mind numbingly wont believe until all is clear and all is clear only when you believe making it a "catch 22" or a paradox, or even an oxymoron. it is logically impossible just like the rest of your belief.

    please, unless you have something actually clever to say dont respond or just admit you dont know and just believe whatever you were brought up to believe.

  146. @ oshonaire:

    Can't you do better than go on a religious rant. Heard this hundreds of times.
    They are just words without any backbone. Devil this, Devil that, the Devil made me do it.
    You cannot even show me proof that Jesus even existed. Why should we believe you, that some misaligned personage called the Devil, even existed?

    What other proof do you have except from a book, books. Do you have something that is tangible? All you are doing is quoting what you read and what you heard from some preacher.

    Is that all you know? do you know any philosophy or any of the Greek thinkers for example. Plato, Aristotle, Thales, Pythagoras, Parmenides, Leucippus, Democritus. just to name a few.

    Show me some proof!!! Money talks, bullsh1t walks!

  147. @ epicurus, i would expect that spiritual truths would sound ridiculous to a man of your philosophical leanings..attempting to explain them to you is like trying to explain the concept of blue and green to one blind from birth..i remember saying that God made those laws so that we would realize our inherent inadequacies and turn to him for help..i would proffer an answer to your questions on the devil ..again for the sake of believing christians who may not will not believe until all is clear to you..but all will not be clear to you until you believe..sorry that is the nature of our faith..those are Gods terms.

    @ believers, satan is a spirit being whose name means "adversary", he is the mastermind behind an extensive, intricate network of lies and deception aimed at creating a perpetual rift between God and man and misrepresenting God to man . the fruits of his work is evident everywhere...wars, murder, intolerance, worship of false Gods, atheism, . All wrong doing : murder,theft, fraud etc comes from manipulation of unhealthy desires emanating from our corrupt nature or misdirection of right desires all masterminded by satan..the devil suggests an idea, nurtures it into a mindset within you and then that mindset generates a continuous stream of erroneous action.Jesus calls him the " father of lies". a perfect logician and consummate strategist, he is the greatest singular causative factor of the pitiful state of man..
    why does God let him go on rampage? the same reason why maggots exist..disgusting and nauseating but they play their role as decomposers in the cycle of devoting himself to evil, satan has unwittingly made himself Gods instrument for pushing evil men to their logical downfall , teaching good people discipline, trust and virtue through the adversity that they suffer, helping humanity to accept its inability to make this world a paradise without God and the individual to realise his his need for help in his struggles against his weaknesses, the devil will play his role , until God blows the whistle on him and says time up! lesson time is must understand that terrible things like death which are final to us are not final to God, he lives in that realm where death is impotent and sufferings, though lifelong, are transient compared to the victories of the devil on earth are not as significant as they appear!

  148. lol @ the winning team...the problem with christians is they seem to think life is some partisan game, us vs them. completely stubborn so much that he cant even see the logical inconsistencies in what he is saying right now.

    why would god allow there to be a satan anyways? why would god make all those laws if he KNEW that everyone would fail anyways?

    you have no idea how absolutely ridiculous you sound.

  149. @ oshonaire:

    That's all fine and dandy, but you are taking a conclusion that a such a person as Jesus existed, just because the Bible told me so. Show us "solid proof" that such a person as Jesus, existed!

    Then maybe some of us atheists, will sit up and take notice. The ball is in your court, the onus is on you to give the proof!


  150. @ stevie, jesus said " I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" from that moment christian faith can never be crushed ..ever again!..what that means is that God and jesus will prevail against every system and belief...including organised but empty religion and atheism..u guys will lose ..we will win!

    @ epicurus and christians who may not know...God, in the law of moses rolled out a number of pretty austere and rather unnecessary rules to the israelites to govern their lives..u will see stuff like stoning to death e.t.c the question is did he mean it literarily? yes he did..why ? the purpose was unveiled by paul later.."...the law entered that the offense might abound" rom.5:20
    God knew there was no way any man with his inherently corrupt nature could live virtuously and perfectly but he needed to prove it to he gave them LOTS of laws and LOTS of terrible punishment to act as effective deterrents but it all failed as anticipated..the people still sinned...but a few succeded and felt quite good with here comes JESUS who makes things worse..he says to those who smugly say.."i have commited no adultery"..i, Jesus, am redefining adultery ..merely LOOKING lustfully is adultery..merely saying u HATE somebody is a stroke the few good guys remaining became sinners too! what is God trying to prove? YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO MERIT ME NOT CALLING YOU A SINNER..ALL MEN ARE SINNERS AND INHERENTLY BAD inspite of your best effort! so he introduces christ and for as many as are humble enough to accept their limitations and call on him..christ offers forgiveness for free! " ..therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to christ,that we might be justified by faith, but after faith has come ..we are no longer under a tutor"
    GAL 3;24. The only commandment remaining for the christian now is to continue to believe in JESUS and to love everybody especially our christian brothers.
    A lot of atrocities have been commited by those who claim to speak for God and bear the name of christ..these men are on their own..they are nothing like christ..who always treated everyone fairly and justly and never dealt the bible says " the lord knows those who are his..let everyone who names the name of christ depart from iniquity" 2tim 2:19...WE ARE THE WINNING TEAM

  151. Eric, are you like me, a Believer? It's good to see another who takes his religon as seriously as it says in the Bible, for it is truely the word of God! Forget these "Christians" who say it is all about "interpretation". How else can you interpret this?

    "Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:13)

    I think the Lord will forgive us if we laugh as we pump round after round into the non-believers! We are, after all, doing Gods work, we are merely his vessel.

    Glory hallelujah!

    I think Jim The Humourless Atheist would like to be first. What do you think Eric?

    Ok, I cant keep this up. Jim, I was only joking, though you have confirmed BBC's statement

    "I can not judge any group of people based on the majority."

    I always thought it was the religious who were the humourless souls, and the atheists liked a good laugh. Guess I got that one wrong. Ooops.

    BBC, yes I was just showing how silly Christians (and all religions, just so the rest of you guys don't feel left out) really are, though I have more respect for the fundeMENTAL Christians than any other sect as at least they are not lying about what they are worshipping. Seriously, if you think that Christianity is meant to be interpreted, and therefor not the exact word of God, then you are not a Christian.

    Also if you think that the Old Testiment is no longer relevant then you are wrong.

    "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:17-19)

    Who among you would actually want to go to Heaven with all those fundementaliats anyway? They are a pain in the hole on Earth and I have only been here a short while, imagine spending eternity with them? Do you understand how long eternity is?

    Anon, you said "although it has no real substance behind the claims, people still believe?". Strange isn't it? But there is mounting evidence that it is the Atheists, and not the Believers, are the weird ones. There is an excellent article in last weeks New Scientist magazine called "Time to accept that atheism, not god, is odd." Check it out.

    Anyway I have to go and follow the Bible once more.

    "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more." (Proverbs 31:6-9)

    And remember what Jesus said, "My Dad can beat up your Dad".

  152. @ stevie...And my son you shall now be blessed and live forever in the kingdom of heaven!

    Repent all ye sinners, for your sins of compassion, tolerence etc ye shall be banished to hell where you will forever live in the spirit of sexual euphoria


  153. i think stevie is demonstrating the ridiculousness of being christian period.

  154. @BBC...yes this is strong evidence of your brainwashing...I have heard all of this before...although it has no real substance behind the claims, people still believe?

  155. @BBC, you just committed what is called the No True Scotsman Fallacy. you claimed that anyone who doesnt behave in a particular way that they arent a REAL christian...okay first off there are many verses in the bible that go AGAINST turning the cheek. like jesus bring a sword and coming to seperate families against one another (Matthew 10:24 and Luke 14:26) and second how do you know which sect is the RIGHT sect and which rules in the bible you should follow and which you dont have to anymore? and how do you make those decisions? jesus said himself that not one word or rule from the old testament is to be ignored and that any man who breaks even the smallest rule basically has broken them all.

    not a single person alive is living as a TRUE CHRISTIAN....hell do you think jesus would have anything to do with a system that keeps down the poor so much? he wouldnt have anything to do with it....also work on the sabbath, wearing two types of thread, blah blah blah...

    so dont pull that "they arent true christians or muslims" bullshit...because the verses are there to justify those people, who are you to say THOSE verses are wrong and the peace ones are right? how do you know the peace ones arent wrong?

  156. I think Stevie is using a literary technique called WTF. He is demonstrating the ridiculousness of being a fundamentalist Christian.

    With this in mind:
    @Epicurious, and Anon,

    There are cultural Christians, like there are cultural Muslims. They may die for their beliefs, but they do not truly believe what they are dieing for. For instance the so called Christians who conducted the crusades or the inquisition did not believe in the religion they professed. The Bible clearly teaches to love your enemy, and your neighbour. Muslims who practice Jihad or Christian religions that practice proselytizing because they fear going to "hell" if they do not do these things, most likely do not believe what they preach.

    Can we look at a group of people and make a general consensus based on the majority of that group? There are police officers who beat people, rob people, and sell drugs. Should i conclude that all police officers every where are drug dealing thieves who rob people? I can not make that assumption.

    I can not judge any group of people based on the majority. Look at how most of the world views the United States of America. I think it unfair to those Americans who do not fit the bill.

    I think worldviews held by people which have not been thoroughly thought out leads to people who do not know what they believe. Going with the majority on ideas concerning certain things is sometimes foolish, and many people the world over are guilty of it. This has led to wars and hatred.

    People say that Buddhism is a peace loving religion, yet the Buddhists are killing mass amounts of people in Burma. People in North America look at the Dali Lama as a peaceful man from a peaceful religion, ask the Burmese if that is true. Many proponents of religion do not believe what they preach, or practice it for that matter. Many of them simply believe because of their parents and upbringing.

    Viewing the majority does not always bring answers.

  157. @Stevie Please,continue your child abuse! Also, if you get a reaction from your child, go ahead and do what the bible says:
    “Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.” (Exodus 21:15)
    I would like to see, a dead again Christian like you in prison!

  158. You got to admit, this guy Stevie is a hell of a story teller.

  159. @Achems "Well, I do not know about woman’s attraction to “big balls”

    I do...and as usual it is over-rated by men (smile)

  160. @ BBC: say means other things? a prime example of the religee's toning it down for the masses, interpreting to there satisfaction, they give it a name, but in reality it is nothing more than porn.

    Well, I do not know about woman's attraction to "big balls", brass balls maybe! (LOL)

  161. "Big Balls" isn't that a song from AC/DC ? lol.

  162. great doco highlight the arbitrary non sense in the creation of the bible and how it is not the word of god but rather the collective fairy tales of men. Highly recommend
    worth seeing

  163. @BBC just because people are willing to die and be ridiculed for a superstition that has been taught to them as fact by their entire culture doesnt make their position anymore likely to be true...if so then i think the muslims would have the upper hand on the christians...there is so much response to the religious videos because religion is one of the most dominant forces in our society and shapes the world we live in. if there wasnt such a big deal made about religion, then i would be worried.

  164. @ bbc...dont really want to 'see yours'...funny when you start coming back at people, you seem very much like my early students...I can direct you to particular research re christian madness and repressed sexual urges...i.e David Stannards life work (mentioned this in my last post), Freud's psychoanalysis, but I cannot make you go there, after all you do have free will don't you? or will your god send you to hell when you discover his genocidal causes?

    Sure the native people who the christians slaughtered would be able to tell you what hell is like...they were given a free sample by Columbus and the pilgrim fathers.

    Have a good day, and do your research with a more open mind...i.e. do not seek to prove or disprove even subconsciously (for that you could improve your chances of success through taking a 'counselling self awareness course. this will help you to uncover your 'roadblocks' to busting through the brainwashed beliefs that this society has fed you) its very empowering...then you would not feel the urge (and repress it) to talk about the beautiful act of sex in such a sadistic way (well arent all women attracted to guys with big balls? hahahaha)
    I wont say see you in hell, because I have strong doubts that you would be developed enough to be allowed in!

  165. Anon,

    hahaha Do you want me to whip mine out too? I was not comparing brain sizes ;) It is good that you have done real research and investigations, and read actual books. Wiki is short for wikipedia, which is not scholarly, and where most people receive the knowledge they have on the internet.

    We live in pop-cultural times, so what ever is the popular view on situations is embraced. I would like to hear your findings on not having sex leading to madness, although i look at some of these Catholic priests and see what your saying. I think those priests were pedophiles to begin with and used the collar to prey on victims, but that is besides the point. I would like to see the findings on no sex and madness, sounds interesting.

    I do not see it as plausible, but maybe you could enlighten me. As far rules about sex, i do not make rules, and all rules are made to be broken. Incase you were not aware the Bible is not a Book about rules, or a Book of rules. Random thought on rules, rules are made for people who lack perspective.


    Like i was saying, the Bible is quite graphic about sex. In regards to Ezekiel 23, i think it is relating the spiritual prostitution of the Israelites to the gods of their neighbours. The donkey balls, well arent all women attracted to guys with big balls? hahahaha

    Religee guys have big balls. I mean after all 12 pitiful nobodies still have all of us talking about them 2000 years later.

    Out of curiousity, if these are all fairy tales and the invisible man in the sky does not exist. why is there so much response to the religee vids? Why are most of these brainwashed religious people willing to die to pass on the message? Why are they willing to be ridiculed and look like fools? I am pretty sure its not because they have big balls. ;)

  166. "you argue on little that you know, why do you argue on some that you do not know"........ Qur'an

    There is lot of distortion and misinformation and concealment of facts that happened in early Christianity, especially the facts why Constantine inclined towards Trinitarians at the expense of Unitarians. The video does not mention the Gospel of Barnabas, that was smuggled out of Roman Catholic Church and made public by the Italian couple. The major difference of Qumran Document is concealed and yet not made public or talked about. There is no mention of Tertulian the father of Trinity that was base on Trinity of Osiris.
    The fact is still the writers and speakers in this video are concealing facts and want to give a merry go round to watchers and listeners and keep them in a state of confusion.
    It is late as I am writing this, perhaps some other time I will come back and quote the Qumran Documents and Gospel of Barnabas.

  167. @ oshonaire actually the probability of life forming, given the amount of time and space in our universe including the abundance of amino acids and proteins is much greater than people think.
    the probability that one species evolves into another is dependent on the amount of genetics available and the environment (that includes resources and predators) however it is a fact that species evolve. we have many cases in the lab of species evolving...yes macroevolution.
    just because i wasnt somewhere when a given scenario happened doesnt mean i cant extrapolate what occurred using evidence. Just because no one was here during the dinosaurs doesnt mean we cant say for certain that there were. if everything was just based on a whim and assumption then we couldnt be having this wonderful conversation using technology.
    the big bang is supported by the most comprehensive and accurate explanations from current scientific evidence and observation.

    LOL @ the science of mind....that is a ridiculous religious following and doesnt even deserve to be commented on.

    a supreme being existing is a mere guess and actually a cop-out. its like saying "i dont know the answer soooooo, magic man!". the big bang is backed up with evidence. so whether or not YOU like the idea of YOU understand it the facts stand on their own.

    i never said that we could figure out everything about the universe, BUT YOU are the one saying you have it figured out (god). Now we dont have to know EVERYTHING to know that god(s) are made up.

    yes if a supreme being did exist and did plan on judging us and expecting us to think he exists and is worthy of worship then he would be in a better position to tell us about where is this answer could be there is no god to give that explanation.

    if he feels his word in the bible full of flaws and translated through thousands of years of mythology and with no evidence is sufficient for me to accept his existence then he is even more pathetic than i figured. IF that being is all knowing and perfect it should see the problem in what you are proposing....its just silly that you would say such a thing.

    i have asked truly and honestly for god or jesus or any deity to come and show themselves to me, i study the religious texts, and listen to everything i can...

    if you want to make any positive statements for gods existence i WILL prove them worng.

    you asking me to ask jesus and god to come to me is just like a hindu asking you to ask Shiva to come to you, you know its silly and nothing will happen....the difference is I HAVE TRIED, YOU HAVENT.

  168. Up until just recently I have been an atheist. The Christian religion just seemed so laughably pathetic and it amazed me at how otherwise intelligent people could believe in such childish nonsense. Jesus this and God that. What puny and ridiculous beliefs. Even a semi-literate child can see that it is all made up stories, just like Zeus, Thor and Allah. (Just so I do not exclude any religious people out there who are non-Christians, let me just say your beliefs are stupid and ignorant as well.)

    It always seemed to me that there are two kinds of believers:

    1) People born into a Christian family. They are indoctrinated from birth to believe in this crap, so while they are otherwise normal and rational people, they have this huge blind spot for the dogma of their formative years.

    2) Broken people who cling to faith to fill a void in their lives. Drug addicts, cripples, criminals, all these people praying in the hope that maybe the next life will be better and fairer then this one. That someone, somewhere cares about their worthless lives.

    Of course both groups are wrong and their prayers are heard by no one.

    Or so I thought until recently. Now there is a third kind of believer. Myself.

    Fellow Christians, please listen to me. I know that a lot of you are trying your hardest to be righteous and follow the gospel, but I fear many of you aren't taking your faith seriously enough. I think many of you are listening to the heathens when they tell you to be "compassionate" and "loving". I fear many of you have fallen into the path of "tolerance" and "acceptance", and those are exactly the kinds of actions that will land you in hell, burning for all eternity. But don't take my word for it, listen to God... He will show you how to live your life, it is how I live mine.

    You see, I have read the Bible from cover to cover, and let me tell you something: The Bible is the most powerful book I have ever read. The word of God allows me to live my life the way I have always wanted to.

    "If a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; thier blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13)

    So all this time my gay bashing has been righteous in the eyes of the Lord.

    Then I read this verse:

    "Withhold not chastisement from a boy; if you beat him with a rod he will not die. Beat him with the rod, and you will save him from the nether world." (Proverbs 23:13-14)

    Well glory hallelujah! I've been beating my son in a drunken rage since he was three. I have always felt a little guilty about that when I sober up, however I now realize that I am actually doing my son a favor when I savagely attack him with my knuckle duster. I'm saving him from the nether world. Tonight I'm going to bash him real good.

    The good news is that if my son ever stands up to me and hits me back, I can just read him this bible verse:

    "Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death." (Exodus 21:15)

    And then proceed to gut him like a fish. Beautiful. They thought of everything.

    So then I read this:

    "A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death." (Leviticus 20:27)

    I went down to the local gypsy fortune teller hut and stoned that crazy lady dead.

    I finally came across this:

    "The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death." (Exodus 31:12-15)

    I've been spying on my neighbors for a while now and let me tell you, some have been working the sabbath. I don't think my garden is big enough to hide the bodies.

    Glory hallelujah!

  169. @ epicurus,you also make a lot of assumptions sir!, do you know the probability of molecules aggregating to form a life form as simple as a bacteria? probably one in a billion not to talk of a man, the probability that one life form will evolve into another is infinitely remote..i think you sir, are being naive here..were you there when the big bang occured? even scientists do not agree on that one, it is merely the dominant theory among many others..have you explored the science of the mind ? that a supreme being exists is a much intelligent theory to me than the big talk about being intellectually you think the human intellect can discover everything about the universe ? are u aware sir, of how infinitely underequipped we are to unravel the mysteries of space? we do not even know how our brain works fully..we are just clinging on to hypothesis...if a supreme being did exist, a real possibility which you have obviously decided not to entertain ( surprising for one who tries to appear like a free thinker)dont you think it is he who will be in a better position to tell us about himself than the other way around, and has it not occured to you that if this being is half as confident in himself as you are..devoting himself to convincing you of his existense may not be a priority for him..what if this being feels that his word, given through human agents of his own choosing( even desert sheep herders)should suffice for want to be scientific in your methods? then humour the foolish christians and prove their theory wrong, focus on this their so- called God and jesus christ and ask him to reveal himself to you if he trully exists..give a reasonable deadline and lets see what happens! unless of course you're scared he might actually respond!

  170. @charles B. You make a lot of assumptions when it comes to the nature of the universe....seems a little childish and disingenuous.

    and you said if he wants to know the meaning of existence that he should pray on it? you mean he should talk to himself?

    how about asking him to question if the question "what is the meaning of existence" is flawed?

    what is the meaning of ice in the arctic? what is the meaning of a black hole? what is the meaning of the planet?

    asking what is the meaning of something PRESUPPOSES that there is a meaning. what if there is no meaning? what if they are reactions of chemistry and physics and our existence is part of that?

    well i know a couple people here would use it as an excuse to let their true colours shine and become just horrible human beings (the religious people), however i see it as liberating and gives me the chance to give my life its own meaning.

    to insist that there is a magical man in the sky that fits as an answer to anything we dont know, is intellectually lazy and just plain retarded.

    to accept the stories/myths of bronze age desert sheep herders as the universal truth you have to be very very gullible or again just plain retarded.

  171. @Achems Razor @Franck Yes, bestiality is ok for atheists? 8

  172. I don't know. Depends how you interpret it I guess. Can some religious people throw some light on this?

  173. Now i'm all confused. Is bestiality ok ? lol.

  174. A lot of sex in the Bible. Surprised the Bible is not classed as XXX. reading.

    @ BBC: Was probably referring to the "Song of Solomon" that is in the Bible.

    A lot of "porn" in the Bible. Ezekiel 23:19-20.- Yet she became and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt.
    There she lusted after her lover, whose genitals where like Donkeys, and whose emission was like that of Horses!

    There is much more if you want to look.

  175. @BBC: The no-sex rule was the cause of the christian madness and the holocausts responsible for the slaughter of indiginous people! (David E Stannard gave a very in-depth analysis on this one, through years of secondary and original research)...The Angels were also in trouble for having sex with mortals as well were they not? The bibl;e on;ly sees sex as good if it is between a married couple...lots of people are not no sex for them?
    Never heard of Wiki? what is that...My knowledge is based on the religious teachings, My own in depth research and my work as a Counselling lecturer specialising in The perils of the patriarchal system, and its connection to own 40000 word doctorate dissertation, which incidently was also based heavily on the Quantum/Plasma physics findings....whats yours?

  176. @ yes we cannot

    To reproduce is the purpose , the same as any other living thing on this planet , but man is arrogant enough to think that we were made in a "gods" image , because apparently we are so bloody special

    myths from primitive human history have no place in todays world and i like to think that most people don't believe this crap , but the more i look on you tube and see comments left on here i think that the world is full of narrow minded idiots , with no grasp of reality and an inability to think rationally .

    "Just because a garden is beautiful , it doesn't mean that there are fairies living at the bottom of it"

    1. reproduction is not the purpose of existence, nor does it apply to all living things. do infertile people have no purpose in life? death is the only commonality among ALL living things. but why must we all share the same purpose?

  177. yes we cannot: Wow! You cut right to the point! "What is the purpose of existance?"

    Well, If there is a God, and believe there is, and if He inspired the Bible, and I believe He did, and the information therein is accurate, and I believe it is, then there is a entity called "Satan" or the Devil, if you wish, and I believe that to be true. With that said, then Satan's only purpose is to kill and destroy by any means possible. He's called "the father of lies" in the Bible for a very good reason -- all lies (including half truths) and all deceptions come from him via willing and fallen mankind.

    This Crapumentary is a good example of this diabolical deception in practice. The best lie is the one that has a shade of truth, but misses the mark, or can change the character of God by calling good evil and evil good.

    If your question of "What is the purpose of existance?" is sincere, then I would advise you to pray a prayer such as this: "God, you are bigger than all the hype and all the lies and all the fake modes of happiness and the meaningless of my life. If You are real, then prove Yourself to me, and I will believe and follow You for the rest of my life." God is up for the challenge, I can assure you!

    Only you alone know what it would take to reach your heart and fill it up with the good things of the one true God, but the asking for advice on the matter is a good start. God can take it from there. I'll pray for you tonight.

    Peace and Grace,

    Charles B.

  178. i do feel a need for spirituality like a part of myself missing and need to be filled.

    marijana did not help, i watched all the films of hollywood then i get bored. then want some strong sensation. too much sex ruins the health! and getting old.

    what is the purpose of existance?


  179. Good Doc, very historically accurate. To clarify the Essene people of the time were like Jewish monks. They lived in the wilderness and copied many manuscripts. Like the monks copied manuscripts. They would have been ascetics. In regards of the heretics being the minority, and therefore banished or silenced and going to "hell", and the majority being right and going to heaven. The Bible teaches that the minority will be saved and go to heaven. The majority will never believe in Jesus according to the Bible, and therefore never go to heaven.

    I find it interesting that Constantine who once persecuted Christians, came to faith (some claim he did not truly believe till his death bed). But to make the state religion one that Roman Leaders were so vehemently trying to put an end to, does not make sense. Unless, Constantine did have an experience to change his mind, not just seizing mind control over his empire hahahaha.

    It is interesting to see the fanciful fairytale books to be left out of the Canon (measuring stick) of the Scriptures. The Books that answer things the Bible is not clear on were rejected. I find that interesting, because it shows the people who put the Bible together were not trying to make up stories. Or answer things that were hard to understand. They let the texts speak for themselves.

    Monkeys being humans ancestors might be considered fairy tales by some. Ontology recapitulates phylogeny could be considered the gnostic gospel of evolution.

    People always try to answer things that are unclear, even at the expense of lies. What? Humans lie? Impossible! ;)

    You made a claim that religion says no sex? The Christian Bible has a Book dedicated to sex between a man and his wife. And it is quite explicit. The Bible sees sex as good and beautiful.

    People need to base their knowledge on actual books, and experience. They should not rely in wiki because then they are just like sheep. ;)

  180. My god is better than your god.MINE IS THE RIGHT ONE!!Fear god,Fear Death,Fear your all govts.Oh god I'm going to hell because I'm not good enough.

  181. Actually, cant wait for some Aliens to visit and throw the whole religious paradigm out of whack!

    But of course the religee's will find some new fanciful tales, to add on that regard.

  182. Did @ Bill, say atheists should leave the planet? wish I could so I don't have to listen to the holy rollers.

    Imagine if the whole Planet was religious, dark ages anyone??

  183. @Epicurus: But thats all part of god's incomprehensible divine plan!


  184. if people had seen someone raise from the dead or walk on water or feed a whole group of people or ANY of the miraculous claims made for jesus, there is no way there would be differing sects. it is just more proof that the whole basis christianity is mythology and stories that no one actually verified. it is just later authors making stories up to fit them in with the prophecies made in the old testament which themselves are just myths based on older religions.

    it takes a very gullible person to actually think reality consists of a magical man that decided to make us just to judge us without showing sufficient evidence for itself.

  185. @ Achems Razor

    In asserting that early Christianity was diverse, I wasn't claiming that it isn't now.

    It's just that most people think that there was "United Christendom" until the Protestant Reformation. That's not true.

    The arguments between Arius and Athanasius, the differing Christologies, and the arguments over what could be canonized demonstrates that.

    The documentary did a fairly good job of summing them up.

    Though I would have like if they'd mentioned the Septuagint.

  186. "however if we could move to another Planet im sure we would and let the religious people kill each other over this one like they have been doing for the past few thousand years."

    I agree, and if history is an indicator of anything, that is exactly what will happen....

  187. @bill

    maybe its time for the religious people to wake up and smell reality with the rest of us.

    you sound like a racist in the south saying if you dont like it get out.

    how about you grow up and realize that faith is not a good thing it is belief in a fairy tale in spite of any evidence against it.

    however if we could move to another Planet im sure we would and let the religious people kill each other over this one like they have been doing for the past few thousand years.

  188. @ Bill
    wuts gonna happen if some atheists stupidly decide to stay dear ole planet earth.(if i had my choice i would leave)..your god gonna tell you to kill them?? nice guy huh?

  189. @ Bill
    Check out the Doc "The Untold Story of Emmett Louis Till" see what's written in your Bible or at the very least "translated".
    And why not see "How to Kill a Human Being", "Brain Story".


  190. I am surprised there was no mention of the "kingpin" of Gnostic gospels, the Gospel of Thomas. The Gnostic gospels were indeed dangerous to the hierarchy of the early church, because they put people in charge of their own spirituality. They couldn't have that notion running amok and stay in control of the masses. I recommend Elaine Pagels' book on the Gnostic gospels for more info.

  191. @bob I'm not being rude.You're just insignificant.

    @Epicurus Perhaps, the time has come for the atheists to move to another planet, as there are far too many religious people in the world!

    @Hardy Sorry, that most people are not as intelligent as you are!

  192. Oops, totally forgot about that...

    Yeah, the doc was quite boring. Didn't grip my interest like others do, wouldn't really recommend it. If you're really, really bored and want to watch a few outtakes of a pretty old story - go ahead.

  193. @ Sarai:

    Good idea, lets talk.

    Diversity of early Christianity?

    Right now there are over 3,800 different Christian denominations. And probably more coming as I speak.

  194. about a discussion about the actual documentary and not personal convictions?

    I like this documentary because it serves to demonstrate the diversity of early Christianity.

  195. @Bill: I personally find it funny.

    Funny how some random storybook can control people so strongly. It's such a narrow and arrogant view of the universe and so utterly illogical... It never ceases to amaze me. Want millions of dollars? Give people something to believe in. Scientology is the best example.

  196. @bill

    atheists care about religion because we exist in a society where religious people impose their delusional beliefs by voting in mass numbers. so atheists have to confront these people because their delusions are affecting our lives. when you vote against gay rights, or abortions, or teaching of evolution, or stem cell research you are hindering all of society based on baseless pointless delusional beliefs.

    so grow up and stop crying about atheists, when your people were busy killing anyone who didn't agree with them for years and are still doing it.

  197. RE: Bill
    March 15th, 2010 at 11:40

    "because they don’t have nothing..."
    "about the matters they don’t have not even a slightest idea!"

    Ok calm down spaz. Maybe read what you type before posting.

  198. Holy books instruct us to kill people for working on the wrong day (Exodus 31:15), or saying the wrong words (Leviticus 24:17) or because they're homosexual (Leviticus 20:13), and millions believe these are the words of God, so is it possible that religions inherently breed violence, or is it just some religions, or do they only do so if people really take their religions seriously? Most people would condemn a person who said these things, so why do they worship gods who say them?

  199. Why do atheist's care about religious matters , because they don't have nothing in their nihilist , abhorrent and stubbornly childish stand! Always swaggering around sniffing out other's religions like a dog starving,suffering from rabies and barking
    about the matters they don't have not even a slightest idea !

  200. hahah...........anything that involves the bible never siezes to amaze me....interesting none the less...i think i gonna get some of my religious friends over and watch it with them.....i sure they will panic

  201. mmm..interesting.

    sounds to me like the religious teachings (of any denomination) are trying to create an 'earth in heaven'..i.e. inequality, struggle, no-sex, and stupid judgements...'rock on' satan...sounds like you had the right idea in the beginning

  202. As if the poor Christians weren't confused enough.
    This is 2010 Christians, time to let go this crutch.
    Men in Europe believed everything and turned in to moronic sheeps during the Dark Ages. The same Men who believed Earth was flat. Those are the same Men that today would tell you the Earth is flat even tho we have scientific proof that it's round. Come on wake up ! So we could have a better World already.

  203. Have watched the doc. apart from all the fairy tales. A lot of questions, no answers.

    What struck me as interesting, from the agnostic texts "the gospel of Mary" was Jesus telling Mary Magdalene, he does not see through the soul or through the spirit, but by the mind, which is between the two, that is what sees the vision.
    Almost struck me as Quantum, since I have Quantum on the brain, (mind forms the vision)...(mind forms the reality)...(we form the reality)

    And another thing, according to the doc. the reason they have not included "The Gospel of Mary Magdalene" is because the church leaders thought that women are stupid, not bright enough for the teachings of Christ. Are you women going to take that laying down? Pun intended.

    But all in all. a great BIG, BIG, fairy tale, one in which nobody can get there stories straight. ergh!!

  204. I had to shut this off at about half an hour. I thought I might enjoy listening to some fairy tales, but this is just ridiculous. The religious folk are just so bizarre on so many levels. How could anybody take any of this (or any religious text for that matter) seriously? This doc and any other doc that debates 'MY god is better than YOUR god' deserves to be in the fiction section next to Shrek and Aliens. There is more truth in those two items then there is in the bible or koran or whatever.

  205. Can't wait either, need some action!! Unless we scared all the religee's away?

    Will watch now also.


  206. Oh I can't WAIT for the discussion on this one! :-D

    Going to watch now...