Srebrenica: A Cry from the Grave

Srebrenica: A Cry from the GraveSrebrenica, Bosnia, the world's first United Nations Safe Area, was the site of the worst case of genocide in Europe since World War II.

In July 1995, the Bosnian Serb army staged a brutal takeover of the small, intimate spa town and its surrounding region.

Over a period of five days, the Bosnian Serb soldiers separated Muslim families and systematically murdered over 7,000 men and boys in fields, schools, and warehouses.

Narrated by Bill Moyers, this compelling film includes previously unreleased footage and first-hand personal accounts of the 1995 Bosnian massacre.

It follows hour by hour the story of the killings. Through the testimony of survivors and relatives of those who died it explores the pain felt when no one is brought to justice.

There are interviews with investigators from the UN-sponsored court at The Hague and from the UN special prosecutor. But the underlying message of the film is bleak indeed - no matter what is done, it will never be enough.

A Cry from the Grave has won numerous prizes. It has been shown at the UN, and it was used during a war crimes trial at The Hague.

Watch the full documentary now (playlist - 1 hour, 44 minutes)
Warning: You might find some of the details in this documentary disturbing.

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Ratings: 6.25/10 from 32 users.

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Comments and User Reviews

  • http://noweb hilary

    Yes, there are money and prizes for film who presents serbians as the worst or the best killers in the world, may be galaxy...ofcourse used for the Hague, which was made for serbs...but US, ups sorry, UN have to know that people are no stupid any more, and may be to make some new story about peace in world, this became stupid and very very sad,first because of Srebrenica..
    At first may be to leave muslims to live they lives in peace, after "angel missions"in Irak , Afganistan,etc.,there are no serbs,but it looks there are no muslims too..
    UN , take care of youreself you were very very bad bad..

  • JustMe___

    You are making a good point there, Hilary!

    It would probably be a little bit.... inappropriate to say "I hate one-sided stuff", because, we are all more or less one-sided and thus are the things we make (I believe that "good", "evil", "big", "small", "much", "little" and any other contraries in the Universe are just a matter of a viewpoint, not "real" situations). Yet, if we are going to make a documentary or whatever, we have to at least PRESENT the other side of the story. If we don't do that, it means we have no "educational" intentions, but sole propaganda.

    Now, I know that propaganda is in the basis of politics (it's a necessity) and that media is the best ever tool for spreading it (well, alongside religion), but I think it should at least be a bit more subtile and covered. Otherwise it offends intelligence...

    One thing I hate is playing with "emotions" in purpose of propaganda. Observing politics from an emotional standpoint is wrong. Politics need to be emotion-free.
    Do you, people, seriously believe this doc was made because they "felt sorry for the Muslims", or that any UN operation here (or elsewhere) is due to HUMANITARIAN reasons (as they say)?
    That simply does NOT exist in politics. Politics is about one thing only - INTERESTS! Insert that into your brains!!!

    Now, if you are willing to accuse me of being "one-sided", feel free to do so - Yeah, I'm a Serb.

  • JustMe___

    "Srebrenica, Bosnia, the world’s first United Nations Safe Area, was the site of the worst case of genocide in Europe since World War II."

    Just this one - define "genocide" and "worst since WWII",

    I absolutely love these claims! No... seriously, I do. They are a "scholar" example of a word-game, nothing else, no real meaning.

  • Nancy

    Shame on the UN office in NY for not looking out for HUMANITY in this situation! Shame on YOU! Genocide is genocide no matter what country, what nationality or what religion! For the UN office in NY not to step forward and help the people of this country or enclave is monsterous! Sooner or later the UN "peace keepers" will turn on US citizens! If the UN can stand by and watch innocent people get killed, who is to say they will not do that to US citizens? ALL I CAN SAY IS SHAME ON THE UN!

  • JustMe___

    Nancy,

    Again, I wouldn't exactly call anything in ex-Yugoslavia "genocide", for a number of reasons.

    Next thing, keep in mind - the UN doesn't care. The "innocent people" do not exist at such high level of "diplomacy", they are just "tools", for them. try seeing things for their point of view. What would you do if you were at their place?

  • cordero

    the bottom line is, are u willing to fight for what u think is right? is what u believe in worth dying for? as a black man, i am %100 sure that i would have died during the early 50's and 60's, because i would have killed as many white people as possible, men only of course, women and children had nothing to do with slavery... i have nothing against any race, the past is the past, leave it there, let's move on as one

  • cordero

    i hate racism, i hate people who hate people. any person who decides to kill someone for whatever reason should be left for dead on an abandoned highway.

  • JustMe___

    And what is really worth dying for?
    Would it be worthy once you are dust and ashes? When you die, you probably don't see it or feel it anymore. Some would call it "personal apocalypse". Now, I'm not sure what to say about that, "What can be considered worth dying for?" is a serious philosophical question and I can still see multiple answers equally acceptable to me.

  • http://www.painstreetgaming.com Titus

    First of all the fall of Yugoslavia was masterminded by a few sharp political players who had good intentions at first but it then warped into something else. Regarding the UN and the so called "safe Zone" lets remember when Gen.Morillion (French General of UN) came to that town to assess the needs of the people there he wasn't allowed to leave by order of the muslim forces. Gen.Morillion had no choice but to say what his captives wanted to say which was this town can be a "UN Safe Zone' but guess what the UN cant do. The UN is 100% strictly neutral. UN can only protect itself nobody else. The real tragedy is innocent ppl got murdered but to the Serb defence the muslim forces were using men,and boys to do their work just as they do now. So, in that aspect the Serbs killed reinforcements to the muslim forces.That doesnt make it right but there was a reason for it.This film seems to make out that the muslims did nothing which is totally wrong. I suggest all watch the Death of Yugoslavia doc.

  • http://atjustme boris

    ha ha ha another debate about' whodunnit again??? several thousand people killed themselves???
    let me repeat the FACTS (i haven't even watched this documentary):
    -about 7000 -8000 unarmed civilians were brutaly killed by serbian army
    -about 25000+ refugees
    conclusion: sistematic ethnic cleansing

  • boris

    i forgot to tell -under UN supervision!!!

  • Ramus

    Another example of religion being the biggest killer in the world. Religion and ethnic categorising must be wiped from the planet if there is to be any hope of global peace.

  • JustMe___

    Boris, Boris, Boris, nobody said they "killed themselves" and you're obviously missing the point here, by far!
    "let me repeat the FACTS"
    You, guys, REALLY love that word, don't you?

    Ramus, yes, but... Global Peace is an unreachable goal, it's Utopian. There might be a way of achieving it at some point in time, though, but it would require many "bad" actions and a change "from the roots".

    Ethnicity is a product of something we can call a 'chain reaction', but religion is a manipulation tool and it is very effective. As you can see - there are religious fanatics everywhere even today... and than someone says we live in an 'advanced society'... yeah.... right....

  • http://www.painstreetgaming.com Titus

    Boris,

    The Muslim faction in this paticular war has done the same thing by killing innocents. Muslims oppressed the serbs and killed thousands as well no one has the number of serbs killed but it is bout equal. That is a fact.

  • phill

    Murder is murder.
    And when you find the ones who did the murdering.
    If you kill them for what they did then you are a murderer to.
    Though shalt not kill.

  • boris

    dear titus, i don't know where you got those facts, but they are far from the truth, number of serbs killed is not even close to number of croatians or muslims killed, and number of serbs killed in serbia is ZERO!

  • JustMe___

    That's because the war wasn't fought on Serbia's soil (until Kosovo war, then there were). Your argument is irrational.

  • boris

    you cannot split guilt for something one side commenced unprovoked, i explained on the other post -you cannot blame Poland for ww2, and yet i am sure that polish killed some germans during that war

  • boris

    at just me, and why the war wasn't fought on serbia's soil???
    because serbia attacked croatia/bosnia, maybe you think that's one of those preemtive wars like Romans or Americans do? sure thing but the other word for that is AGRESSION

  • JustMe___

    Again - irrelevant argument.

    War is not about provoking, it's about interests. The Muslims had the interest to spilt from Yugoslavia, the Serbs had opposite interests, UN... their own and so forth. Therefore, yes, you can split the guilt.
    Also, there is NEVER "one side" in a war, EVER!

    Speaking of WWII, what do you think, why it started? Because some German "gangstahh" wanted to "shoot da hood"? Come on, please, be a bit more rational! Poland was just used as a "polygon".

  • JustMe___

    No, there were no Bosnia (real name Bosnia and Herzegovina), or Croatia. There was Yugoslavia, my dear friend Boris.

  • Ace

    Wow what imbeciles!

  • Fractal

    A good point indeed Hilary, well stated.

  • Imightberiding

    At the beginning of this thread there was much talk of the UN. I'll toss my 2 cents worth in the discussion. Another example would be Lt. General Romeo Dallaire & the tragedy of what took place in Rwanda. Yet still another ill equipped "peace keeper with the UN". I say this in quotations only because I don't believe the UN actively keeps the peace as much as they could. General Dallaire is now considered a hero by many & a callous criminal by equal measure. This is directly due to his hands being tied & lack of support & a strong defensive that should have & could have been rectified by the UN itself. As a result, try as he might to intermediate & save as many lives as humanly possible I believe Lt. General Dallaire is nothing short of a very brave man & a hero for our times.
    I don't mean to get off topic, it just appears to be a horrible pattern & repeat of what the UN does in these situations. Their 100% neutrality has time & again needlessly cost countless lives. I certainly realise the political dangers of choosing sides but surely these wise leaders can see avenues that taken would have been seen worldwide as strictly defensive & preserving of so much lost life.
    It happened in Rwanda & it happened in Bosnia & Herzegovina/Yugoslavia & it has happened in numerous other regions on this planet & it will continue to happen until the leaders of the somewhat stable, peaceful nations take a strong stance & give the UN or some such organization the power to act in defense of the week & persecuted. Some earlier mentioned world peace as being Utopian. This is an all too true statement. Were it not, then the UN & all such ideologies would not even be considered. Just go straight to world peace. Don't pass go & give me the $200.
    Until we reach Utopia we need a decisive & strong UN. The watered down ill-effective "neutral" UN we had then & have now is as useless as ..... well, you know.

  • Atabey

    I agree with Ramus " Another example of religion being the biggest killer in the world. Religion and ethnic categorising must be wiped from the planet if there is to be any hope of global peace."
    Viewing the documentary I felt ashamed of the kind of world that we live in. How can men kill other men, women, and children and destroy nature. It's a game for them? Who are those people? How can they condone the lies, the genocide and the cowardice of the UN representatives? The pain and the loss of faith of the people is a testament of the inability of the military to “secure” civilians. Peace will be only obtained by generating and maintaining a world free of inequalities.

  • boris

    at just me
    do you even read what i write???
    read again, please -especialy that part with poland, and then think it thru while reading it yet another(3rd) time, jiz

  • boris

    btw here in bosnia we call it bosnia

  • boris

    at ace
    maybe you should ask your mother why is that so, ?obane nepodojeni

  • boris

    at hilary
    no, americans are number one (killers in the galaxy)

  • Imightberiding

    D@mn it all! Are we still in the dark ages? Are we not past all this? When will we be? Will we ever? I am at the very cusp of speechlessness. (I truly am, but thank goodness for this, otherwise I could go on & on with regards to my disgust & anger over this unjust & horrifically tragic scar/unhealed wound on the face of humanity) Frustration, disgust, anger are collectively inept & impotent words with which to describe my state of mind & emotions while watching & being made aware of such atrocities. The grief, loss & anguish of the mothers & survivors is palpable.

    Extreme rationale would appear to be one solution, however extremism is the engine by which these criminals drove themselves to this place. Rationality (in this case I am attempting, to make however week an argument that rational thinking is almost always a good thing, except sometimes] can most certainly lead to mediocre results.

    So we have on one side a group of unchecked, out of control of the very basic human ideals of life & liberty, dangerously fanatic, psychotic, extremist, religious zealots. (enough adverbs & adjectives?) On the other, a group of ineffective, powerless, unwilling, effectively circumcised beyond all masculinity, (not intended as a sexist remark, only that these people are completely useless & impotent in their capacity to perform the duties they have lead the world to believe they will) "peace keepers of the UN.

    Which is worse? The monsters who conspire to torment, torture & kill fellow human beings or the supposed saviors who come to your home & either through ignorance or blatant negligence, lie to you & your family that they will protect you. The result being that you do not run & hide from your enemy or take any more proactive measures towards rescuing your loved ones because you have been falsely led to believe that you are safe!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (@Vlatko, sorry I just had to do the multiple exclamation points on this one. Please forgive.)

    I do not portend that the UN is our salvation against any future tyranny. It is just that the unfortunate reality is this: as long as man is on this planet there will always be at the very least, one with a "great" idea of how to make it a better place to live. Without some sort of referee to observe & metre out even the most basic of all consequences for inappropriate actions, the game will always be decidedly unfair. If we as a cohesive group of nations desiring peace expect to maintain peace to some degree are not willing to actively defend peace then we will never achieve it. Unfortunately peace will not happen by itself because of all the "brilliant minds" intent on some self serving goal. We (those of us sane enough) have to be active in our defense of peace. Not always 100% neutral.

    We have the capabilities, can you imagine the lives spared & families restored & future tragedies averted if only the UN or some other sort of world wide organization actually had the b@lls & maintained the ethics of basic human rights on a global scale & wasn't concerned about "political correctness" every time some very real national or international crime occurred. I'm not talking about big brother here. Only about focusing some of our energy & technology towards an ethical end rather than greed for once.

    OK, time for all of you to laugh, mock & scorn me for my naive comments.

    Peace to you all my fellow brother & sister TDF viewers. Oh yeah, & happy new year!

    @Vlatko: Thanks again for the time & effort to share yet another powerful film with us.

  • Linda

    I recall when this mass genoside was first reported here in the U.K. My self and many other mothers wrote to our then Prime Minister John Major and beged him to do something but, our plea's fell on deaf ears and as for the U.N. what were they thinking. My Brother and a team of medics from the war crimes commision arrived in 2000 to try and find the people who had been murdered he is a forensic radiographer He was there for about 6 weeks. Alas Bosnia you have no oil to protect if you had you would have had all the help in the world shame on you United Nations

  • JustMe___

    @Boris,
    Yes, I read what you wrote. Your point is...? Have you read what I was writing all along?

    (Make difference between trivial and official)

    By the way, one thing at you, Boris, to be honest, i don't mind you arguing with me the way you do and all your replies are expected... for obvious reasons. The annoying ones are those random people who think they can make an "emotional" regard on something they really do not understand.

  • Reasons Voice

    Are there realy people out there that believe that the UN would act any differently if their offices were elsewhere? If so please patittion your government to build them a facility and get those egotistical beurocrats out of my city. And while your at it have them pay their fines fees and rent to NY. Bunch of leaches.

  • tomi

    what you people are arguing about?you are living in england or in usa and you have your oppinion about everything that happened in bosnia based on tv news & documentaries...well,im living in bosnia,im croat and i saw the war with my own eyes.still i dont think im welcomed to argue over internet on everything that happened here 12 years ago (only 12 years).
    and you go so far to claim who is the victim or who got the blame,youre lamentating about un role,about politics in general,like you understand it?where is the respect for innocent victims-its about them this docu is made?
    its very easy presenting your opinions here,but more worthy would be to use them back home,to try to change everything thats wrong in your own backyard.
    one of you have said that back in the 60ies he would kill as many of white people as its possible,bacause all whites are responsible for slavery?bravo!thats the peak of comprehensive thinking,i pray to god to give me a visdom to reach this depth of contemplation.
    there is much more advanced school sistem in your countries then it is in mine,throw some money to it and get university diploma in politics or philosophy or whatsoever,and then come back and enlight us all.people,you cant read and understand chomskys books,start with plato and aristotle first if youre intrested in politics.brain is like a muscle,so to it goes also "no pain no gain" moto.
    again,respect for the innocent lifes lost,leave political comments on some others documentaries,not this one

  • boris

    at just me
    i read you carefully and i agree with you most of the time, i am beyond any race, or religion, or gender and i know that superficial reason of this war is religion, and the real reason was conquering of yugoslavia by dividing it's peoples by politics and doing nothing and god knows what... i am simply stating that you cannot say that victims have equal share of guilt in this particular case... where are you from and how old r u, if you please?

  • Reasons Voice

    @Tomi; I don't claim to have any grasp on what happened in your country. I was not there so I know nothing, and leave it to those who were there to figure out. I must say though that your praise of the ideal of indiscriminantly killing those you percieve as opposition shows just how thing like this happen. This was a documentary of the results of the actions of those who think like you do. "bravo" to killing any and all white men in the US in the 40s and 50s to combat slavery? Well 1)slavery had ended in the US more than 100 years before that. and 2) The super-majority of "white men" in America never had anything to do with slavery. By your reasoning and his all the irish imigrants post civil war...Dead. All the German, Polish, Frech, etc., etc. before and during WWI and WWII Dead. You presume to watch a doc. about ethnic cleansing and then prescribe more of the same?

  • JustMe___

    "Boris,

    Now you are expressing yourself much better.

    Well, victims don't share any guilt, because - if they are victims, it means they are not guilty.
    What I am trying to say is - try having some more "neutral" point of view, or try taking up the role of your opponent. I know this is impossible to achieve completely, but partial is enough... for me.

    Now, I am a Serb and you are... I assume, a Bosnian Croat, correct? That is, unfortunately, one of the reasons there will be stuff we just won't get along about, which I consider "sad", since we are very closely related people. Yet again, we live on the Balkans. The one who knows Balkan history would understand our points of view (well... more or less, at least).

    I never said Serbs are "innocent" ("Serbs" referring to the ones who participated in the war), I just say that some people have too obscure, narrow, one-sided and "emotional" views on the matter (please, pay attention to the word "too").

    "real reason was conquering of yugoslavia by dividing it’s peoples by politics and doing nothing and god knows what…"

    Well, that is the important thing, even you and me were clearly affected by exactly that.
    Wars begin and end. People and "the thought of the mass" is what stays... for a long time.

    Again, religion is just a tool, it has always been, even since the first states were formed.
    Also, I am an agnostic, so all these stories about God and judgement do not "touch" me at all.

    May I ask why are you interested in that? Are you willing to discard the validity of my statements based on my age?
    I live in Serbia, female and... surely younger than you. I have no trouble to tell you my age if you explain me the relevance of it (don't take this as an act of arrogance or anything, just curiosity).

    (I am sorry if my post seems a bit messed up and confusing, but the reasons are justified... I hope)

    I have to add that I agree with Tomi, mostly.

  • WTC7

    @ tomi,

    Don't worry, your English is fine, you were critical about the fact that the focus of the discussion was on the, e.g. UN role in Srebrenica, whereas it should have been on the victims of the atrocities or the atrocities themselves. But try to understand that those who have not been through a war see wars more or less abstractly (no offense intended to any of the commentators), and you cannot blame them for it.

  • boris

    he he i knew it (that you are a girl) don't worry i know that all serbs that matter to me; (well maybe not all, but majority) educated and open-minded, had nothing to do with that madness, and that politics are sometime stronger than an individual... i am from pula and i am 29yo so i had nothing to do with that war either, nor do i blame anyone, however i am very harsh on 'my side', and i dont like when the 'other side' act like nothing happened, so to change the course of history and to enter a new era, let's make love -you and i, and show the world that we are not 'cavemen' depicted in this and similar documentaries... what say you, my dear country(wo)man

  • boris

    at just me
    the previous post was addressed at JustMe__, please do contact me on anaxandar[at]yahoo[dot]com 'cause i would really love to speak to you further on the topic and, as you would surely agree, it would be more appropriate than spamming the public post, not to mention completely new dimension of discussion once we switch to our native language...
    thanx for understanding

  • boris

    at just me
    the previous post was addressed at JustMe__, please do contact me on anaxandar at yahoo . com ’cause i would really love to speak to you further on the topic and, as you would surely agree, it would be more appropriate than spamming the public post, not to mention completely new dimension of discussion once we switch to our native language…
    thanx for understanding

  • JustMe___

    How could you know that?
    I really don't like guys automatically change their attitude around girls, it equates hypocrisy (off-topic, sorry, people).

    Now, back "i am very harsh on ‘my side’, and i dont like when the ‘other side’ act like nothing happened" we do the same thing here.

    Basically, I have war experiences (1999) and it was totally beyond my control. Should I go now around the Internet and call every American or other "Westerner" (so-called) 'evil, Anti-Christ' etc, etc, etc?

    Well, therefore, I am 11 years younger than you, so I'd ask you be careful of how you express yourself........

    I am so out of the hippie-style thinking. I am in a way more of Tomas Hobbes, or even pessimist Nietzsche philosophy.
    I am against things like this. They can't even be ideologically "justified" (not in sense of legitimacy, but in sense of 'goal justifies the means') since such tries simply always fail, sooner or later. Although we know that in this war, the majority of mass-killers in those wars (on all sides) weren't much ideological. There was no genocide, really, genocide is much more organized, this was (in many cases, not always) senseless mass-killing for reasons unknown to perpetrators (note: paramilitary formations).

  • JustMe___

    Well, not using Yahoo...

  • iko

    The use of the term 'moslem' instead of Bosnian Moslem is a deliberate misnomer to provoke all sorts of negative associations. Many Bos. Moslems so defined by cultural heritage are atheists, agnostics and some even Christian, those that are practicing moslems are like your practicing western Christians- some go to church, some tick a denomination in the census box but know little of what that means, some are zealots, some are moderates but all want to live a peaceful life with their neighbours and not have to look over their shoulder to see who has targeted them for 'special treatment'. Sadly the territorial ambitions of their larger neighbours has never allowed a Bosnian/ Catholic/Orthodox or Moslem to live a full life in peace.

  • Vilhelmo

    Why is it genocide if 7000 die in civil war yet when the US presides over the death a million plus in Iraq it's called democracy promotion? At the same time as NATO's war against "genocide" in Yugoslavia, a far greater genocide was taking place within the borders of NATO itself! Talk about hypocrisy! Hundreds of thousands of Kurds were killed during the 90's by Turkey's military with the full support of NATO countries, most crucially the US.

  • boris

    at just me
    you got it all wrong, nevermind, keep the spirit

  • boris

    btw you don't have to 'use yahoo' to send an e-mail

  • Teamtigerpaw

    @TOME Thanks for your post, well said. My view broken down to the least common denominator is mean people SUCK........

  • addy

    Vilhelmo
    they(official americans) call that pest-control!

  • addy

    from wikipedia (it is all true, i guarantee)
    It has been estimated that during the Bosnian War between 20,000 and 50,000 women, mainly Muslim, were raped...War rape in the Yugoslav Wars has often been characterized as genocide. Rape perpetrated by Serb forces served to destroy cultural and social ties of the victims and their communities.[30] Serbian policies urged soldiers to rape Bosnian women until they became pregnant as an attempt towards ethnic cleansing. Serbian soldiers hoped to force Bosnian women to carry Serbian children through repeated rape.[31] Often Bosnian women were held in captivity for an extended period of time and only released slightly before the birth of a child born of rape...This occurred in the context of a patrilineal society, in which children inherit their father's ethnicity, hence the "rape camps" aimed at the birth of a new generation of Serb children. According to the Women's Group Tresnjevka more than 35,000 women and children were held in such Serb-run "rape camps".

  • addy

    casualties
    one side 38000
    other side 16000

  • addy

    btw that's proven casualties, however there's still going on sc promotional war (even here) and estimations are up to 70000 vs 28000, either way, they are always 3 to 1 and not one to one as some people here try to promote

  • I'm from Serbia

    I'm from serbia and I am very disapointed by this video. They have shown serbs like terorists,but they have not shown what muslim side did to serbs. I am not saying that serbs where good, but the muslim side was not prefect.
    I am sorry that many good men died in this ponitless war, but this is afful that these men that had shown this movie said that serbs are terrorists!!!
    And nobody from the world can't judge us, because you didn't went through what we went. I would be glad if all those good men didn't die. I would be glad if all those nationalists died instead, and all this didn't happen at all.

  • JustMe___

    @Bris,

    I didn't get it wrong, I am just pointing out at things. Maybe you didn't get my point well enough. You are free to ask.

    (as for Yahoo, I thought you were referring to IM-ing)

    @addy

    "from wikipedia (it is all true, i guarantee)"

    Ehm... yes... of course.........

    @I'm from Serbia

    Good point. Don't you find it ironic that those who are so "OPPOSED" to generalizing people based on their nation, race, gender etc are doing exactly that by saying "The Serbs are terrorists" (and many such people do so, as I had a chance to see/hear). What does it apply? It applies a syllogism as following "All Serbs are terrorists. 'JustMe___' and 'I'm from Serbia' are Serbs. Therefore 'JustMe___' and 'I'm from Serbia' are terrorists."
    Well, if any of the alleged "peace-lovers" here thinks so (and as I look back, I see they do) let him/her say so!

  • tomi

    to just me_& im from serbia
    people i urge you to move your discussion somewhwre else,this site is not appropriate place for it.
    it makes me feel bad when i see bunch of ilitterate children counting deads and arguing who killed more or who started first.as ive said,grab some books.
    btw,again,this is not suitable place 4 such talks,why?
    because there is not only one truth.my truth(speaking from croatian side,as far as its possible to generalize),i believe,
    completely opposites your truth(serbian),so there is no room to make those two closer.so what can we do?learn,work on ourselves,to make us better persons.this way if tommorow new conflict begins,and we will be forced to fight again,we will colide more honourly than last time.men are dying by a bullet,sheeps are dying by a knife.
    and no,i dont believe in utopistic world peace ideas,simply cause that never happened in whole human history,and im affraid never will be.im only realistically disappointed in evolution of human spirit and im convinced that we may speak about peace loving societies,but in real life that is impossible to happen.
    goodbye

  • JustMe___

    @Tomi,

    Please, don't put us and those "illiterate children counting the dead and arguing who killed whom more" into the same sack.

    As I've said somewhere above, I agree with you most of the time, even on the 'disagreement' part, if you read back, you'll see I've stated some things in the same way.

  • Reasons Voice

    @tomi; My apologies. It was not your english so much as the fact that sarcasm looses context when in print. I whole heartedly agree to your statement that people who were not there have no idea of the complexity. And that they should refrain from judgement. I understand this because of the prevalent world view of the US. The view is that the US citizens are war hungry enablers of bad polititians. That as members of a democracy we controll our overall impact globaly. That is not true and only someone who lives here and is open-minded and aware can know that. In general the people here cannot ever agree. Two people can't agree on what to eat for dinner let alone collectively change the face of our government. Foriegn peoples just can't see that from the outside looking in.
    I will not pass judgement for either side in this conflict. I simply feel sorrow for those who endured it.

  • WTC7

    @ addy,

    It is an interesting analysis and a rather strange way to prove a point - that raping 38 k women is an obvious sign of devious genocidal intentions, whereas raping 16 k, during the same period of time mind you, is just some poor men in legitimate need of sexual relief.... Nothing wrong there, huh? Besides, 16 k is peanuts, just a few women, is it not now?! I am sure next you will tell us that the latter always politely knocked at the doors of their victims and asked them if they wanted to be raped... some really nice folks it seems...

  • addy

    wtc i dunno what you are talking about, that was the number of people killed!!! the number of serbian women raped by croats or muslims is somewhere between zero and several, had you read all the post you would have grasp that meaning

  • addy

    wtc
    you just proved that you obviously don't know much about the topic, i apologize if someone (besides you) got that wrong, let me repeat 38 k versus 16 k is number of total people killed, and number of raped women, as i stated previously is between 20 and 50 thousands

  • WTC7

    @ addy,

    True, I did get wrong what you said, was obviously going too fast through it.

  • addy

    at just me
    it would be impossible to write Marko, Jovan; Nebojša, Stevan and another hundreds thousands names did the atrocities, what really connects those people (beside crimes they were committing) is the fact that they are all Serbs, so when i say -only serbs sistematicaly raped women- it is implied that not all serbs raped, and that it was during the organized aggression (that some people mistakenly call yugoslav wars) of serbs... let's not forget that that was the war for teritory for Greater Serbia, well i am so sad that once such a big country is now striped of half of croatia, half of bosnia, montenegro, kosovo, hopefully even vojvodina, and it is now only what is populary called 'beogradski pašaluk' (belgrade canton)
    Srbija!

  • addy

    wtc
    well, since you admitted, i can say, don't worry it happens

  • JustMe___

    I have written a large amount of posts already explaining it all. If you find it hard to read through and give a proper reply, please do not reply at all. Thank you.

  • boris

    JustMe
    quote ''I really don’t like guys automatically change their attitude around girls, it equates hypocrisy (off-topic, sorry, people)....Well, therefore, I am 11 years younger than you, so I’d ask you be careful of how you express yourself……..''- end of quote - that you got all wrong, and i offered my friendship, and my e-mail, you refused, so i must say that you've lost some credibility there

  • JustMe___

    No, I sent you an e-mail (from hotmail) and got no reply.
    As for changing attitude... I'll explain it elsewhere. This site should have user accounts.

    At the rest - Sorry for being off-topic.

  • addy

    at just me
    we are not all clever as you are, however it is somewhat funny that you talk about the facts of the war while you were only born after it, and i was there you know, i saw all that with my own eyes, while you sucked your thumb, and pretend that bombardment of bridges (by NATO) is something, i would really love to see your opinion after endless gang-raping done by filthy stinky ‘animals’, while you watch your father f..k your brother with mmashine-gun pointed in his head (mind you it was not a single case, many people during that war have been there… so please, save it

  • WTC7

    @ addy,

    Hmm, this time I have not misread what you wrote. Your dreams of the future of Serbia are wild and malicious. However, since we're at it, I'd advise you better worry about your own yard and how what you call a country, kept together only thanks to the internationals, is shaking like a house of cards.

  • JustMe___

    Please, do not imply bas sarcasm regarding my ability to reason.
    Yes, I am aware of the fact I was not there. Being there, you are welcome to share your stories (but please, no exaggerations).

    Again - how can you say your view of things is clear?
    The "random foreigners" have no right to judge and give some emotional comments, but actual Yugoslavs need to take care not to be carried away by their emotions.

  • addy

    at wtc
    i was being ironical, it is not my formal opinion

  • http://www.painstreetgaming.com Titus

    so, I have read a few comments and I see that some one is stating that muslims and croats did not kill,rape,and or pillage serbs? LOL, I am not even remotely from there and I know better than that muslim and croats raided serb towns and maliciously killed innocent serbs thats a fact. Serbs murdered thousands of muslims men and children from ages 12 to 70+. Muslims throughout history exploit men and boys between these ages and still do to this day. In one hand Serbs were very wrong in doing what they did but muslims and croats did exactly the same thing. Americans have every right to post their comments on this since u all would still be fighting if it wasnt for us and there would be no croatia or bosnian muslims left Fact.

  • WTC7

    @ addy,

    The "hopefully even vojvodina" sounded... well, how can I put it... hopeful perhaps? But I'll take your word for it that you don't actually really wish it to happen... :).

  • http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/about/ Vlatko

    Ok I'm closing the comments on this one. It's way too sensitive.