The Case for Christ

whats wrong with this one

no not all of the experts were nor was the history or documentation.. they don’t believe in Jesus Christ and His Resurrection…..but it is actually one of the most historically witnessed proofs in ancient history…especially by non-believing cultures and communities after his death.

the above comment is absoultly rite, he asked only theists. if you want an objective view toward christ, ask a jew he will tell you exactly what is wrong with jesus.

Anyone else notice that in the closed captioning all the men are referred to by name and all the women are simply called “woman”? Kind of a funny coincidence considering it’s a christian documentary.

I come to understand that every documentary, no matter how objective it tries to be, is pushing a point of view. Some subtly and other forcefully. But “The Case for Christ”, literally, slaps on your face and towards end of video I was gasping for air.

I think this is similar to a infomercial produced in a documentary style under the guise of investigative journalism. If you like to watch apologists selling religion then watch it.

While googling Lee Strobel I found this video. Pretty interesting. At one point of the video Deepak Chopra, a new age guru, tells Greg Koukl, an apologist, that he expresses his views and he doesn’t impose views.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3190951131579891616#docid=-4605089118493558689

Atheist
if you want more on the supernatural, let me know.
(This is actually my second message, the first one has links[moderation takes time], so I don’t know for sure which one will be posted first.)

William and “Atheist.” Perhaps you should study historical evidence more. Start with the Shroud of Turin, Jesus’ burial cloth and the fact that your independent non believing friends can’t figure out how the image on the Shroud was made since even with to today’s technology it can’t be reproduced yet it was done by a corpse over 2,000 years ago. Atheist I have a challenge for you. Think about your own beliefs and whether or not you feel you have morals, because to be a true atheist you cannot have moral values. Here is why. If you state you got your moral values from your parents then where did they get them from? The answers is often society, where did society get its moral values from? Religion, where did religion get its moral values from? God. Let’s look at the other path if you state you don’t know where you got them and that they just “existed” then you like Richard Dawkins must admit that something as complex as moral reasoning cannot be happenstance, otherwise animals, plants, and everything else on this planet would be capable of moral reasoning, therefore those inherent morals you would claim come from a Creator, ie: God. Either way if you state you have morals then you believe in God so you seriously seek him out and what he has planned for your life. Otherwise a claim to be a true atheist it be completely devoid of moral values. If you take this note and then state you are an agnostic then you must further assert that a God may possibly exist, in this instance if God created you, you’d be a fool not to find out for sure to determine why you were created. 2 + 2 = 4, there is absolute truth therefore we must find it. Don’t discount God for the Bible has made predictions such as Russia and Iran dealing militarily together some 2,500 years ago and it has come true. The Gulf of Aqaba has Chariot remnants from ancient Egyptians in amysterious land bridge where the Exodus took place, coincidence I take it? Or evidence of God’s miracles. you be the judge, but it is only you who can make the choice to believe.

If I only interview non believing scientist, or anti-theists, I would be able to make such a “documentary”.

Anyone who has the slightest clue as to how the New Testament was translated (let alone all the other HISTORICAL FACTS) knows that the New Testament can’t possibly be the divine word of God.

When a priest says “I’ve researched this” they are really saying “I am just as right now as I was yesterday.”

There is nothing credible here. But I understand how you might not want to let go of such a belief. Life is scary and religion, as all mythologies have, offers some comfort because it explains something scary and misunderstood.

Alex- Don’t call me or anybody else “biased”. Why? Because it is not a nice thing to say. If you don’t understand I suggest you talk to your parents or your priests or who ever you DO listen to and ask why calling people names isn’t nice. It will make you a better christian. I promise.

Dear Alex

HMmmmmm.
You cannot even follow simple instruction. All you had to do was ask………or think why I am saying these things to you.
Don’t accuse me of giving you morals. How can anyone give you something you refuse to accept?

I am getting tired of these bs from you. Ignore me as I would I ignore you. Just flick off.

Dear Charly

Enjoyed reading your comment. Kind of reminded me of CSI (Crime Scene Investigation-TV show), the way you pieced together circumstantial evidences along with facts to build up a case. But what would be the motive? What I mean is why Pilate, a non-Jew who would have no interest in Jewish prophecies, would go out(way out) of his trouble to save Jesus?

It is indeed in your best interest if I ignore you. By the way, you are the one who is first addressing me.
You write:
1) “You cannot even follow simple instruction.”
——-This is another insult… and for no apparent reason actually.

2) “All you had to do was ask………or think why I am saying these things to you.”
——Who told you I didn’t?? If you mean the curses, there’s no excuse for someone intelligent.
The good thing is that all you have said is here for all to see… and make sense of you and me. Right?
Your acting like you have a childish grudge! Get over it please. Other than making insults and false accusations and being a smart alec, don’t you have anything interesting to say (like some others do)?
Bye Joe.
God bless you.

Dear Charly

Wiki:
‘Pilate appears in all four canonical Christian Gospels. Mark, depicting Jesus as innocent of plotting against Rome, portrays Pilate as extremely reluctant to execute Jesus, blaming the Jewish hierarchy for his death.[2] In Matthew, Pilate washes his hands of Jesus and reluctantly sends him to his death.[2] In Luke, Pilate not only agrees that Jesus did not conspire against Rome, but Herod Antipas, the tetrarch, also finds nothing treasonous in Jesus’ actions.[2] In John, Jesus’ claim to be the Son of Man or the Messiah to Pilate or to the Sanhedrin is not portrayed.[2]‘
‘Aside from these financial duties, the governor(Pontius Pilate, the procurator) was the province’s chief judge. The governor had the sole right to impose capital punishment, and capital cases were normally tried before him.’

You made a strong argument.
I always wondered why there weren’t any official Roman records of issuing capital punishment on Jesus. It’s possible that the record did not survive or that Jesus was never killed by Pilate’s judgment and subsequently, he(Pilate) wouldn’t have been required to record nor send it to Rome.
Then Josephus’ historical writing, from Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3 where Jesus’ death by Pilate was recorded, might have been correct.

Thanks for the insight

Unbelievable, anyway…

Dear Alex

Your link DOES NOT contain any mentioning of official
Roman record about Jesus’ death.

No need to comment on this.

But if you do have legitimate sources regarding above matter
I would be thankful – I’ve been fruitlessly googling for sometime. Just you know, I have read up to Tacitus annals(113A.D.?), which I believe is the earliest known official record, and I already concluded that his writing on Jesus as hearsay because Christianity was only mentioned to give reasons for Nero’s(54A.D.-68A.D.) atrocities.

Dear Alex

WOW! I was asking for ‘official’ records but nonetheless I appreciate your effort. You have given me a huge task. I will comb through it as you have done so.

as-salamu alaykum

Joe,

1)Future referrence?? what this for?
You just said “hearsay”.
2) I gave you proof of the existence of such an official record. My arguments were clear for all. You cannot just diregard it, if you are interested in the truth. If you don’t get it, I can’t help you.
But, do “comb through it”.
God bless!

Every scholar has agreed that by nature, the Holy Bible is fiction in nature. Most well educated Christians including the Vatican (Easily the most educated Christians on the planet)agree that the Bible is just a story. The most glaring case is the adoption of evolution by the Catholic Church. The Vatican states that the hand of god was involved in evolution but they do not argue that all species evolved.

The power of religion is faith not fact. If you try to argue that faith is fact you have failed your religion.

To try to prove that your faith exists to others only proves that you do not have enough faith alone.

If there was irrefutable proof that Jesus existed it wouldn’t be Faith it would be history. Face the facts, there is no proof that Jesus walked the earth. Maybe Jesus wants it that way. If proof of religious facts is a measure of the true Faith, then I can find thousands of religions that hold water much better then Christianity.

Look deep inside yourself… take a deep breath… and imagine if the son of God would lower himself to the level of quoting other men to prove that He existed.

If this “documentary” is a measure of the Christian faith in America, then I have one thing to say… You need more Experts, I don’t believe your faith yet.

Joe,
I am realizing I am doing you harm. How? I am giving your credit, validity, just by talking to you, and you might continue to think you know something, when you know nothing. Seriously. Already in your arrogance you think you know something about the historicity of Christ when it is apparent you know don’t. The fact that you immaturely mishandle Tacitus’ account, clearly makes me doubt you have any respect for the truth.
Now, you write:
1) “Hearsay – From your comment you didn’t know the true meaning of the word and you didn’t use it properly. So I thought you might want to know. Maybe I assumed too much.”
——Spare me, please! You, as usual, was being, sarcastic. You knew I knew what hearsay is! Now, when we say hearsay today (as you did!) we mean someone’s opinion not based on evidence but on a rumor. That’s why I asked you if you can prove this. Don’t insist on twisting things around.
“Then you quote me and say:

2) “Can you prove that his writing on Jesus was hearsay?”
There is nothing to prove. Question dosen’t make sense. Tacitus wasn’t there. What ever Tacitus writes about Jesus is a hearsay.”
——What?? Is Alexander The Great, Plato, Napolean, Hitler hearsay?? Those who first wrote on them, wrote on them based on mere rumors?? No?? Prove it!!!! It’s like saying my mention of the existence of a particular person 30 years ago is hearsay, just because I don’t provide evidence!! What would the strong evidence of my deception in claiming this be?? And why would you doubt me (Tacitus), when you know I’m a serious trustworthy historian as all my works show?? So, again, how do you know it’s hearsay?? (Nonsense I say again!) Why would Tacitus mention a person who he supposedly (…) considered a mythical person, and connect it to a real one (governor [!!] Pilate)?? Silly! Stop wasting my time. As I told you Pliny the younger spoke of Christ’s crucifixion, and he was very good friends with Tacitus! One trustworthy source for Tacitus would clearly be Pliny. Who knows how many he had. He was an articulate, scholastic, historian.

3) “You may think these are the official records. You may think your arguments are clear for all. It’s for me and others(readers) to judge. And I will disregard them if I find them to be untruthful.”
——Your -last sentence here- threat, just exploits the fact you are not interested you are on His truth. But just to hastily trash it (as you did Tacitus).

4) “Yes, I do get it. Thank you very much. And you cannot help me. But you do help me with regards to new religious insights.”
——a) The fact that you won’t be helped, is why I will not continue with you.
b) “New religious insights”?? Real arrogant I must say thinking you know what’s out there on evidence for Christ, and simultaneously ignorant of you.

I suggest you get of your pride horse and lower your tones, so I can respect you as I want to. Think.
God bless!

Did Jesus die?
Attribute: Flange Gasket.

Your talking about the Jesus of mythology, there was a Jesus born of Joseph (titular name of the Judean Crown Prince) and Miriam on March the 1st. 7 A.D., unfortunately the Judean Kings had been deposed by the Roman installation of the Herodean (Idumean) Kings. Jesus unsuccessfully attempted to bring together Jews and Gentiles to overthrow the Roman domination and regain the throne, he was supported by the Zadokite and Abaithar priesthoods but could not win the support of the Saduccees and Pharises. Eventually he was sentenced to death along with Simon Magus and Judas Sicariote, however on the way to the Crucifiction Simon of Cyrene took Simon Magus place.

Simon Magus was of the samaritan Magi and the Qumran Theriputerate, a gifted physician and student of the craft, he prepared and gave to Jesus “vinegar mingled with gall” (Mathew 27:34) gall is snake venom, and Jesus quickly lapsed into a coma. Victims of a Crucifiction would often live for several days before they expired, hence Pilate was shocked that Jesus had apparently died so quickly (Mark 15:44), “and Pilate marveled if he were already dead” Jesus was taken down from the cross and placed in the tomb that same day as was the Jewish custom, Deuteronomy 21 (his body shall not remain all night…thou shalt in any wise bury him that day) Later on Nicodemus arrived with a great quantity of Myrh and Aloes (John 19:39), extract of myrh being a sedative and the juice of Aloes being a powerful and fast acting purgative, exactly what would be required to treat the ingestion or a measured dose of Venom.

Subsequently Jesus was known to have missioned to Galatia in Persia with John Mark, and later to Rome, via Crete and Malta. His wife Mary Magdalene (remember the wedding at Cana in the gospel of St. John) bore him two sons and a daughter in those times where it was safe for him to return. The Magdalene and the family of Jesus eventually ended living on the Herodean estates of Provence in Gaul with the deposed Idumean Kings themselves exiled by Nero-from here Jesus younger brother Joseph(of Arimatheo) traveled on to Britain to settle in Glastonbury on “twelve hides of land” granted to him by Caractacus the Pendagron. The ancestors of the family of Jesus intermarried with the nobility of France, and today many prominent families trace lineage back to early Judean Royalty.

Later Jesus missioned off to India with the disciple Thomas, where he was known to the Muslims as Us Asof, thus Jesus completed his mission, died a natural death and was buried in Kashmir. Guided by divine revelation and subsequent research, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the founder or the Ahmadiyya Movement, located his tomb in the Khanyar street of the city of Srinagar, where it still can be visited today.

As for the Jesus of Myth….

I hear he’s living on the North Pole, with Santa and the Tooth Fairy…

Joe and razor,
sorry about some of my spelling mistakes and a few words I didn’t delete.

I’m starting to get convinced of that last part about the aliena :D :D

Dear Joe:

You probably meant boost!

I was just quoting Jack Nicholson from the classic movie,
“As Good As It Gets”

I just find this very convenient that every religion happened ages and ages ago so there can be no solid and reliable evidence of it. It’s pretty obvious it all happened during periods of time with little understanding of science and leading people to come up with ridiculous stories to explain things they couldn’t understand. If there really is a god and he wanted us to follow him wouldn’t there just be a constant flurry of events through time up to today. How can you buy into this “go on faith” concept. Wouldn’t God want no person to be left behind? You guys are analyzing this all way too much and not just stepping back, looking at the the big picture and putting the big pieces together.

There is more evidence right now (and it’s accumulating every single day) that evolution is occurring then there will ever be to “prove” the existence of “God”. The thought that a historical proof can be made for such, is laughable and pathetic at the same time.

Dear Razor

I meant this post.
‘Did Jesus die? Attribute: Flange Gasket.’
And aliens? I have no problem. As long as first alien I meet has pointed pointed ears.

Dear Charles

Good luck in ‘midterm test’. We gonna miss your comments.
ps – If god of Christian doctrine is real then we all be holding hands around a camp fire at night singing ‘Praise the Lord’ and there wouldn’t be any nations, politics, armies, science, doctors, and education. Like Graham said we need to step back and be honest with ourselves. And if god is ‘true’ then I will be the first one to hold your hand. I say this without ignorance, arrogance, and sarcasm.

as-salamu alaykum

Charles:

You said it all for me, when you said we were created to be servants.

Thank,s but no Thank,s!

Anyway, I still wish you the best in all your endeavors. You seem like a kind soul. :D :D

Dear Joe:

Thank you for the compliment.

I am laughing my *** off also, “LOL”

Smiley Face press : then capital D

:D :D

The above is too much to laugh at: Comparing a Tarantino film with the evidence for Christ’s existence, then…. there’s no proof of Jesus’ existence… then, there’a proof that macroevolution is now occurring…
Ok I see that it’s time for jokes again:
Bill, Jim & Scott were at a convention together & were sharing a large suite on the top of a 75-story skyscraper. After a long day of meetings, they were shocked to hear that the elevators in their hotel were broken & they would have to climb 75 flights of stairs to get to their room. Bill said to Jim & Scott, “Let’s break the monotony of this unpleasant task by concentrating on something interesting. I’ll tell jokes for 25 flights, Jim can sing songs for the next 25 flights and Scott can tell sad stories for the rest of the way.” At the 26th floor, Bill stopped telling jokes & Jim began to sing. At the 51st floor Jim stopped singing & Scott began to tell sad stories. “I will tell my saddest story first,” he said. “I left the room key in the car!”

My point in choosing this joke: People will be so suprized when they find out that their plans and hope were based on a big mistake… unlike the joke, they will not be able to make things right… too late.

Charles,
may God bless your every effort! See you in His Wonderful Eternal Presence!

Dear Joe:

For your smiley’s to work, you have to keep them apart 2 to 3 spaces!

:O :D :D

I am a Filipina and I enjoyed your documentary. A fantastic video. Very encouraging. Thank you vlatko for including this documentary on your website.

Dk hi!
You write:
1) “I don’t believe that Helios was actually carted across the sky in a chariot but there is surely EVIDENCE that it happened (i.e. any Greek story that mentions him). However, in the face of scientific scrutiny, it is surely refutable evidence. The same goes of your Christ.”
——This is wrong. There is no evidence that Helios “carted across the sky in a chariot” with four… horses (!), there is evidence of such a myth being documented. We are talking about a myth here.
But, you have to be joking when comparing Helios to Christ! All accounts of Helios indeed read mythological, but not those of Christ. We are talking about a real person. Also, there is abundant evidence for Christ’s existence as a living person (not a myth), His miracle workings (spoken of by non believing Jews), and His resurrection-46:50 in the film. So, we have all the above documented eye and ear witness accounts (most are for their contemporaries to read by the way!!!), and Old Testament prophecy-which you have to know about (!…) before commenting on… right? Just saving you and me time.)!! A lot of which the film presents.

2) “Lastly, as far as I’m concerned, the existence of Jesus of Nazareth as a human being that walked the earth is not proof nor evidence of the existence of god.”
——-This is true. But if you are honest and acknowledge the rest of the facts, the case for Him being God, is made.

3) “There have been prophets and sages over the history of this planet that have performed miracles that would have you believe in hundreds of gods but I give them as much credence as I do your god.”
—–Sorry, but this is blabbering. Why don’t you mention one we can research on? You can’t. Anything you say about this -I know cause I’ve researched on it- can easily be refuted. But, do waste my time, for your beefit.

4) “Your Christ is not the first story of being born a virgin, walking on water, healing the sick, raising the dead, or resurrecting. I don’t believe the Egyptian stories because they’re Myths.”
——If you see the film here on TDF “Zeitgeist Exposed and Refuted” you will see how funny your statement is. If you then read “Shattering the Christ Myth”, you’ll probably loose your sleep for a long time.

5) “The same is true of your Gospel.”
——Any sceptic or scholar, will tell you that Egyptian myths and the Gospels have nothing in common. Get over it.

6) As for proof from the Bible, you write:
“Is there PROOF that any of it actually happened? No.”
——Why would you talk like that when it is evident you have never done your homework on the issue? What is driving you to this? Most likely bitterness, hate, laziness. Don’t just react to this, think please. Or maybe -for some reason (…) – you think you’re studied on the issue. Anyway, after you do that, you can visit my comments on Zeitgeist Refuted and Exposed (at June 20th, 2009 at 21:42 and in other films here), and find proof about Biblical events there. There is proof for most of the Biblical events (fireballs on Sodom and Gomorrah, parting of the Red Sea, the huge rock Moses hit from which water kept coming out, a burned-on-top mount Sinai from the Presence of God, the ruins of the walls of Jericho, and more…) but who cares, right? You can just say what ever you want, that’s how the parody goes.

7) “Thus, we have the most childish of all human creations, Faith. God is dead. My condolences.”
——-Sincerely likewise.
Do your homework dk. Here’s some to start you off (what more can I do??):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkcgLz3U56k
http://www.expeditionbible.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAnT6sbA60&feature=fvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwTVFk1HK3Y
If you trample all over them dk, well, you really begging God to give you at the “End” what you deserve. Be wise. Friendly advice.

May God give you His increase.

V- I think you should put “The Power of Myth” with Joseph Campbell and Bill Moyer from PBS documentary.

CMmf hi!
1) Thank you, I’ll take a look at it. Meanwhile if you want buy: “Shattering The Christ Myth”. It shows how -historically- the Christ myth, came about, but also refutes every claim. I can send you one for free if you want. Get my email from Vlatko or the forum
2)You write:
“YouTube videos do not amount to any sort of academic research.”
—–To a degree (depending on the content) this can be true, but they do provide the other side, and many times the results of academic research as well. Also there are issues where academic research has nothing to do with it. Simple facts and common sense can do the job.
Either way, further research, objectiveness, sincerity, integrity, common sense, should always be used.

I would appreciate it if you quote some of his “interesting points” and I’ll give time to give you my opinion.

God bless you!

Joe and Alex you guys are bickering like a bunch of children. “I wasn’t belittling you, you were belittling me”. Please just stop. Alex if your trying to minister you really are going about it in the “wrong” way. I know your trying to be noble but some people just won’t accept your opinion and if they don’t, well, you just have to move on. It’s called “Planting seeds”. If you truly have faith then you know that God will send someone along the way to “water the seed”. I for one am against organized religion. Why??? Because it’s MAN MADE. I believe in God and I believe the the bible is inspired by God. Written by a flawed man yes, but flawed man was created in a perfect image and has the potential to be perfect only when…you guessed it, “inspired by God”. I believe that God is everywhere just like he/she/it says. I feel the presence all the time and even have conversations. The cool thing about it is that when I ask questions, I always get an answer in a subtle but very creative way. The creative ways that the answers are given just verify more for me that God is there. Now the debate on Christ is a debate that people like “Alex and Joe” have been debating on for centuries. The Romans most likely don’t have text stating that they crucified the Christ because if you hadn’t noticed, it’s usually blamed on the Jews(who the Romans didn’t really care for anyways). Also the fact that the Roman Catholic church changed a lot of dates such as Christmas in order to worship their pagan Gods. Hence the obelisk at the Vatican, Providence in London, and the District of Columbia. If the Vatican believes in Jesus, why would it have an “idol”/monument to the pagan God Amun, that represents fertility. The Romans loathed Jesus because he took away the power that they had been trying to build. They worship the Virgin Mary instead of Jesus. Why? I always thought it was to spit in the face of Jesus. That’s just my thoughts though. I am pretty sure the Virgin Mary wasn’t a virgin after Jesus was born. But again that’s just my thoughts. Oh yeah, I am a little ADHD, back to Christmas. There is no way that a prego lady (who has been told that she is carrying the son of God) and her husband are gonna just truck it across a desert during the winter time wearing just sandles and a few garments here and there. Late spring and early summertime seems like a better time make that journey. But of course the Romans wanted to encompass their pagan God worship and the worship of Jesus together so that everyone is on the same “holiday” schedule. I prayed before I wrote this so maybe it’s God is speaking through me. Probably is but hey you never know. All I can do is have faith and plant seeds.

That’s a good one Joe. You can bicker as much as you want. I just wanted you to know you sounded like children(just an opinion). If I got anything wrong that’s entirely your opinion which you are entitled to. Praying is an ongoing process so your absolutely correct. I never pray long enough. But I do try to be as consistent as possible. I mean, nobody is perfect. I never said I was a holy presence either but thanks for the thought. God is the holy presence though, not me. If your getting messages from “my God”(who by the way is also your God whether you accept it or not) you seriously gotta forward me the phone number because prayer is cool, but a text message from God would be awesome! You must be ecstatic! Take care of yourself buddy. God Bless.

This is poorly done, its presented as a inquiry, but in fact they read the bible and claiming is historical fact.
In ”Christian” style: a bit hyperactive over smiling due to is faith being confirm or revealed. Same pattern as the Secular Believers http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/secular-believers/

Ivan: I like to try and convert the “passionate” (especially Muslims and Atheists) because when they do convert, they usually are very passionate for the cause for Christ too, like the Apostle Paul. “Fence sitters”, ok; sometimes. But go for it anyway, if you can, but rarely do they get off that fence, even if they just barely creep over to your side. :-)

Hi ppl!

Just want to say my two cents worth. Maybe get some of you thinking. First of Christ – I allow the possibility that he was a real person as much as I entertain the possibility that he is a figment of imagination. First of because gospels were written at least 70 AD. Another is that ppl who wrote it had an agenda just like any other group of ppl now and then. Now if Jesus was real, what set him apart from many other contemporaries that had their own religion? Part of the answer is that his followers survived the Roman rule. Usually when someone challenged Roman rule they killed him (Jesus claimed to be the king of Jews) and if the group of followers was big enough to be seen as a threat they joined their leader. Jesuses group was small enough to be spared. So their religion survived and managed to become (by political manipulation) the official faith of the roman empire in 313 AD with the edict of Milan – the rest is history. So it is now one of the most widely believed monotheistic faiths. So pure luck (or horror) that it survived the first few centuries and then grew to what we see now. But please understand that he was just a person like any other and not the son of god.
Now to Alexes and some other ppls claims that Bible is fact and science can not disprove it. The one (maybe I missed it because of so many comments) that bothers me is that earth was created in 6 days. So I imagine that besides the earth becoming about in 6 days about 10000 years ago the universe is also about the same age? – correct me if I am wrong but stars were made (according to the bible) so we could see at night or did He make it a week before? Well here is where the evidence, proof (call it what you want) refutes this claim of Christians to such a degree that any other argument becomes irrelevant. The Earth is at least 4.6 billions years old!

http://www.extremescience.com/earth.htm

Now another thing that I find about religious ppl is their utter lack of understanding morals. First it is not the product of the Bible and 10 commandements. Morals formed as we first started to live in a society. Why? Well there have to be some rules when interacting with others. We as a species would fail to survive if it were not for our ability to take care of each other. At one point there were mearly 2000 humans scatered accross African continent. Our ancestor were smart and realized that they have to pull together as long as 200 000 years ago when they started living in groups. So they had certain morals that were true to them. Now morals changed with time and different places. So to be good and have a set of values to please some fictitous deity is a wrong way looking at things. Especially because those are usually dogmatic. For our kind to advance it is necessary that they change. So being good for the good of others and society as a whole is why we have morals because we in turn benefit from that also. Not hard to understand unless you are Christian. Maybe christians have free will but good christians shure do not. Just like muslims and others alike. A big price to pay in order to have a simplistic explanation of our universe. Not to mention the fact that the most evil was done in the name of faith, still is and (if by some miracle things dont change) will continue to do so. Understand that this santaclaus in the sky that knows wether you were good or not is in place by power hungry ppl that want absolute nonquestionable control of the world. So even harmless worshipers in the end enable evil as they empower such organizations. Now I do not pretend that I know the anwser of how we came about and I am fine with the fact that humans might never have the whole picture – just for the record. My plea to all of you is believe what you will just dont support religious organisations as they are with out a doubt not a way to salvation but a form of absolutistic rule that disrupts and disables peace between all of us.

Oh no! I just realized I took the name of the Lord and the Holy spirit in vain and today happens to be Friday the 13th.

What will ever happen to me? lol

To all atheists out there:
Atheism is no longer a defensible worldview. Why? Because atheism states unequivocally that there is no God, from a vantage point that assumes you have an exhaustive knowledge of the universe.

No human being sits at a vantage point that has an exhaustive knowledge of the universe; therefore one cannot say, in a matter-of-fact way, what exists and what does not exist.

Atheists can say that they do not personally believe in a deity – but they can only say that from their own limited vantage point – not in the sense of what is and what is not.

Now, as for this documentary, here are the following points:
1) It is biased, but not necessarily “untrue”
2) All the scholars presented have a confessional investment in Christianity, but that does not make them “dishonest”
3) Ben Witherington and Craig Evans are highly respected scholars not only within Christian circles but among their scholarly peers as well who don’t have confessional leanings
4) As a former atheist myself, I can attest to the reality of Christ who is real and alive
5) Christianity is a relational religion as well as a historical religion

It would have been interesting to hear non-confessional scholars give their input. Lee did ‘stack the deck’ in some ways. I give it a B-.

Charles,
Intersting analysis. I think postmodernism allows for the possibility of God. Even in our multi-cultural world, outside of the Western world, spirituality is not only relevant but in fact very real. Shamans in Africa claim a sort of power that can only be described as real. The lines between fiction and reality are blurred to the point that one has to allow the possibility that religious experiences are reality. This is true for animistic belief as well as Christianity. There is some sort of spiritual reality.

I am a Christian, but I am a thinking Christian :). I have experienced the reality of Christ because Christ changed my life. I used to be an atheist and believed in nothing, but Christ changed things. I cannot undo this experience. Sometimes it is just inexplicable. My dry bones came to life, as the prophet said.

What I do not understand, is how we can understand at all!

“Albert Einstein”

@johaness,

“Christianity has never been about a case or
such things that happen in the courtroom. It is about faith a hopeful leap into the unknown”

This line of thinking gives Christians a bad name. And for good reason! I can’t stand it when people say this! Name me one place where the Bible tells us to have “blind faith?” In fact, just the opposite is true.

Acts 17:31:

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Acts 2:22-36 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved…Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear… Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

The Greek word for faith is pistis which should be translated as loyalty. You’d know this if you bothered to do any research on the subject. With this definition in mind, take a look at these verses.

Matthew 8:5-10 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed… When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Mark 4:39-40 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

“but that is all, thereafter it must be faith. The journey just begins there. Christianity based on evidence will not seek nutriment under those terms it can only whiter and die.”

What are you talking about? Will not seek nutriment or nourishment or whatever you were trying to say (your spelling errors are atrocious. I just had to do something about them.) Frankly, I haven’t the slightest clue as to what you’re talking about, but it sounds like you’re trying to say that a Christian who believes on evidence will not establish a true relationship with God. If this is what you’re saying, then why? Your claim is unsubstantiated. In other words, you have no evidence to back it up. In fact, just the opposite is true. Your faith will eventually crumble without evidence. Only a very select few seem to make it without asking for evidence. Hear that? Evidence. A great word isn’t it? Maybe you should actually research so that when an atheist actually asks you a question about your belief, you’ll be prepared to defend your faith using evidence to back it up. What are you going to say when an atheist asks “Why does God allow suffering?” What are you going to say? “Have faith”? No one will accept this answer. If I told you I had a pet dragon in my living room, would you believe me? If so, why? If not, why not?

I’m sorry if I’ve offended you at all. Actually, you know what, I’m not sorry at all. People like you need to have common sense and sometimes the only way to do that is a good slap in the face. Jesus said worse of the Pharisees, so don’t accuse me of being “unchristian” or anything like that.

In closing, here’s a website that might help you out (if you even read it.) http://www.tektonics.org/whatis/whatfaith.html

Good luck. You will most definitely need it!

Jesus did exist but not as who you think. This man was given to be the new religions god as a hoax. He was also deformed.

“But perhaps the strongest evidence for Jesus’ historicity is the surviving testimony that Jesus was grossly deformed. While the author of Luke stopped short of portraying Jesus as a cross between Quasimodo and Rumpelstiltskin, as later Christian apologists did, he did record (Luke 4:23) that Jesus told his home town synagogue audience, “You’re sure to recite this proverb to me: ‘Doctor, heal yourself.’” Why would Jesus expect his hearers to react in such a manner? What was there about him that needed healing? One possible answer can be found in the same author’s Acts (8:32-33), and also in John (12:38).

The authors of Luke-Acts and John both equated Jesus with the suffering slave of Isaiah 53:1-12. Deutero-Isaiah had written of his hero, “Having neither proper shape nor beauty, lacking good looks that would have attracted him to us…. We regarded him as someone plagued and afflicted by the gods.”

Even allowing that John used Luke as a source, why would either author have equated Jesus with such an unfortunate creature? The answer that springs to mind is that they were putting the best possible spin on the reality that the physical description of Isaiah’s suffering slave matched the physical description of Jesus.

By c 178 CE, the pagan writer Celsus was able to say of Jesus, “Surely a god would never have such a body as yours, that is so contemptible, being subject to such numerous and considerable imperfections.” A generation later, in his Contra Celsum, the Christian apologist Origen did not dispute the accuracy of Celsus’s description. Rather, he argued that Celsus “cannot deny that if our liberator was born as we say he was, that then his body had in some sense a stamp of divinity on it.” (ch. 59) Since Origen offered rationalizations of all of Celsus’s other anti-Christian arguments, his failure to dispute that Jesus’ body was so stricken with “imperfections” as to be “contemptible” is most reasonably interpreted as an admission that the description was accurate.

Tertullian in 207 CE similarly conceded that Jesus was misshapen: “His body was not even of honest human shape.” Clement of Alexandria described him as having “a very ugly face.” Cyril of Alexandria echoed that description, while Andrew of Crete declared that he had “eyebrows which meet.”

Those descriptions prove only that, from about eighty years after his alleged death, Jesus was believed by Christians and non-Christians alike to have existed and to have been deformed and ugly. But did such a description exist early enough for it to have had a factual basis? There is good reason to believe that it did.

The earliest hint of Jesus’ physical imperfections was written within twenty years of his death by Paul of Tarsus. Jesus, according to Paul (Philippians 2:6-7), “did not exhibit the shape of a god because he considered it larceny to be equal to a god. Rather, he degraded himself by taking the shape of a slave.” Note that Paul did not say that Jesus adopted the “status” of a slave. He wrote that Jesus had the shape/form/morphe of a slave, in other words a body more appropriate for a slave than a king.

It is not credible that second-century Christian apologists invented the deformed Jesus that remained undisputed until the sixth century. More likely, they were quoting from an older source, and there is reason to believe that the source was Josephus. As quoted by Robert Eisler (p. 467) Josephus’s Halosis described Jesus as follows:

“a man of simple appearance, mature age, small stature, three cubits high [4 ft 6 in; 137 cm], hunchbacked, with a long face, long nose, and meeting eyebrows, so that they who see him might be affrighted, with scanty hair (but) with a parting in the middle of his head, after the manner of the Nazirites, and with an undeveloped beard.”

While it is not impossible that the Josephus passage is a forgery, in order for Christian theologians to accept the description as accurate someone of comparable reputation must have written it. Such a description could only have been written down and accepted at a time when dispute would have been impossible because people were still alive who had seen Jesus preach and knew that he was as ugly as the writer claimed. Josephus wrote at a time that fits that specification. Had the description of a deformed Jesus originated as late as the time of Celsus, Origen could simply have painted an alternative Jesus, more like the Adonis that he became after Josephus was expurgated and the Mandylion of Edessa, on which all future depictions of the Christian junior god were based, was painted. Origen did not dispute Celsus’s description, because the unexpurgated Josephus still existed, and any contradictory description would not have been believed.

The Jesus of history was deformed. A fictitious Jesus would from the start have been the Greek god of post-Mandylion iconography. The Jesus of history marched into Jerusalem on a Sunday morning, proclaimed independence, and was arrested and executed five days later without accomplishing his purpose. A fictitious Jesus would not have started a war he could not win. Jesus was posthumously transformed into a latter-day Osiris, Dionysos, Atthis, Tammuz, Adonis and Mithra. But he must have existed, because what a remains after the savior-god myths and hero-miracles are deleted is a misshapen, rationally challenged religious fanatic whom no mythologian would ever have invented—at least not as a hero.”

http://www.sikhspectrum.com/112006/bh.htm

Well said, fuentcent. I always thought the philosophical arguments for the existence of God were flimsy at best. When it comes down to the facts, it either is or isn’t. You can’t really prove it without evidence of some kind.

I also agree with your last statement. I’ve always wondered what exactly makes a god worthy of worship. It’s more of a philosophical question than a religious one, since it’s not really up for debate when it comes to religion.

And as for organizing the comments, I think there should be one section for genuine commentary and discussion, and another section for people who troll, type in all caps, or are too angry to think straight.

Yeah, I see a lot of problems relating to FAQS 8, 9 and 10. Especially 8. If anyone wants to talk about anything on the forum, I actually do go there.

well about jesus being deformed, there is obviously a lot of historic writers who seem to agree he was deformed as in the descripionn above, and really anything is possible, we have to keep an open mind ! but the thing is that jesus and his followers were in the end persicuted by most, so it wouldent suprise me to think that most would try and belittle him, remember christianity dident take off until constantine made it state religion throughout the empire in the 300s ad, until then most christians were used for fun in the arena, as for the comment “doctor heal yourself” this could refer to anything! an infection or visible skin condition which were common, maybe even mental? he was claiming to be the son of god, so maybe heal yourself was really saying come on mate sort yourself out and get a life! who knows, also i think if jesus was that deformed no one would of taken him seriousy, which we know is not true, he probably would have been an outcast, which was common with those deformed or diseased, there were also a lot of able bodied preachers at the time who were also healing and performing miracles, but jesus preaching has changed the world, if he was severley deformed, his teachings would not of been credible.
also we must consider the turin shroud, after new evidence it is now believed it could be genuine, the image on the cloth is not of a deformed man, if it is genuine, what then of historic accounts of jesus being deformed ?

What nonsense

-there are many contradiction in the bible not just that
-the alleged miracles, oh boy…let’s not start with that
-obviously he was schizophrenic and though he was the son of god/god
-most experts shown are some clerics or biased persons in the first place
-they quote and interpret only the Bible and no other document

This documentary is just silly

And besides the Jews don’t see it like this, nor did the chinese, the Mesopotanians, the Egyptians, the secluded African tribes in the middle of congo, the whole Americas,… we can go on and on and on!

Believing in this is almost as silly as calculating the trillion trillion trillion trillion… number mentioned.

Oh did anybody noticed…the authors wife was pressuring him and rather than loosing her, he made this bogus research so he can convince himself to become a Christian.

Why am i even wasting time with this?!

I echo one of the earliest comments concerning stacking the deck. And I would be very interested in the investigator’s response.

The strength of the ivestigator’s argument is that he investigated this from a skeptic’s perspective, using an objective journalist’s approach. In this manner, the more skeptical among the viewers would have some level of trust in his research.

But what is intriguing is the denominational and theological background of every one of the experts consulted by the allegedly objective journalist investigator.

All of them are of an evangelical, fundamentalist background.

Now, I realize that the loudest voices among Christians in our country are evangelicals — perhaps of a Baptist, “nondenominational,” or Assembly of God background. But one would think that someone trying to come at this investigation would get a multiple of perspectives. And speaking of incredible odds, didn’t it strike anyone in the production company that it was a tad bit unlikely that every expert would not be Catholic, would not be Lutheran, would not be Orthodox?

Even the British bishop — whom I think was a tip of the hat to a more sacramental denomination — interviewed is from the evangelical wing of the Church of England.

Come on! The largest denomination in the country is the Catholic Church, and since the 1950s and 1960s, some of the finest scriptural exegesis has been done by Catholics. Not one Catholic scholar was consulted! Isn’t that a tad bit unlikely?

Unless, of course, this whole production was a clever invention of Christian denominations hostile to the “***** of Babylon” that they allege the Catholic Church (oops, I mean “Catholic religion”) to be.

Furthermore, not one scholar from so-called left-leaning denominations was interviewed by the allegedly objective investigative journalist. Perhaps there were no Catholics in the city that the researcher lived. Unlikely, but perhaps. But there most assuredly had to have been left-leaning mainline Protestant scripture scholars. It stretches too far one’s imagination to even conceive that a so-called objective investigator wouldn’t consult with such lefties.

(By the way, I think every viewer was left wondering how he managed to survive two years with no regular salary … who was footing the bill for his research? Hmmmmm. I wonder? And if it is who I — and every viewer — is thinking of, then what self-respecting skeptic or atheist would allow himself to be duped into such a project by these folks?)

Frankly, this not only raised my suspicions, it really betrayed the pretense of the production … which is obviously a media-savvy evangelical Christian convert’s zealous dramatization of his conversion story, with the objective journalistic storyline retroprojected back onto the real events … still unknown to the viewer.

Ironic, isn’t it? At least it is for those scripture scholars never interviewed.

The drama concerning the investigator’s own personal struggle from disbelief to openness to belief is also potentially manipulative of the viewer, in that a skeptic could identify with the struggle. “And if he came to belief — albeit reluctantly — than perhaps I should allow myself to as well.”

As a Christian believer, I am sympathetic to the documentary’s message. But its high production quality is matched by its pretense of objectivity.

And in this sense, I think it does damage to the apologetical mission. It’s in fact counterproductive. Those one would want to convince with this piece remain unconvinced.

Then again … maybe we have the wrong audience in mind. Maybe the so-called investigative documentary really isn’t targeting the open-minded sketpical crowd.

Maybe the real audience targeted is found in fundamentalist congregations’ youth groups, increasingly susceptible to a skeptical vidiot culture. Maybe the audience is supposed to be unreflective atheists and agnostics who are going through mid-life crises, and are vulnerable to such an appeal.

I could see this in our parish’s religious ed classes. But it would be a bit disingenuous to show a video made in pretense about the One who is Truth.

Slick production and writing. Just self-defeating.

Paul Jarvis

about the healing evidence from Alex
Lets talk about healing: shortly millions of people getting well from deadly diseases every year because of science, medicine and real knowledge! penicillin, vaccines and more… do believe in Jesus to become a better person but do not even try to tell the origin of the world, nature and so on from the bible! look at the animal life’s and nature and i mean deeply and there exist, murder, killing, cruelty, cannibalism and more. we humans have “free will”! but when god made “not thinking” nature, what was he thinking? I know EVOLUTION the survival of the most fittest one!

I went to Ralph Ellis website and i think it’s true about what he wrote about in his books.I asked these so-called Christians in here that”where from Cain’s wife came?”since there was only 3 being left on earth,nobody answered me yet,the bible said that he went to the land of the lost and there he had a wife.According to my research,that land was were the apes settled and he intermarried with them.Now let’s talk about Jesus,them Christians don’t even realize that,if Christ was a Jew,why is that they always portrayed him as white with blue or sometimes greens eyes,just check every picture of him and you’ll see what i’m talking about here.Also there is sometimes the”sun” on top of his head or other times there is only the cross and the sun rising on top of it with this phrase”He is risen”,this is about the sun.What about “Sunday=sun+day”:this is the day of the sun which is the first day of the week and they all claimed that is the 7th day,we all know that according to their Bible,he kept the Jews sabbath which was Saturday,some even say that it is the day of the lord because Jesus was risen on Sunday morning,yea right,it’s all about the sun god because on the 22nd of December the sun disappear on the southern atmosphere and reappear on the 25th of December(Christmas)on the northern atmosphere,that’s why they say that Jesus was dead and risen after 3 days and also the birth of Jesus.If someone doesn’t believe me,why don’t you go check this verse in your own Bible”Psalms84:11,For the Lord God is a”sun” and shield”;How could it be shepherd outside feeding the flock outside during Winter?We don’t even know nothing about him from his 17 years to his 29 years of ages,where is his record here people?what did he do between that time?If someone may like to check out this too”http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDdBlO3XauA”

Driving a car without a license is illegal but how about those who drives around without a car?

Let me put it in a question on what I am trying to relay here: Why is it that it is always about the Jews and David? Where is Saul?… Why is it about Christ and Jesus? Where is David in its Christ or their Prince of Israel?… Why is it that Apostle Paul was it and not clearly states if it is Apostle Paul and not Paul of Tarsus?… Well, driving around facts in their art of telling “the truth”, in keeping the Lord for themselves is keeping the truth in the hands of the Lord… as far as the Highway of information is at the core of concern… Just like in NT, It seems that it was Jesus all the time, but what would you say of those people who are keeping that ‘God sacrifice His only son’ and ‘Jesus as the Lamb of God’?… To me, they are the vagabond and worshiper of the “Living God”, conniving for the “graft and corruption” that they have and been practicing.

Ah!… Anyway, God bless! I am still at lose with the Lord, Master and God in my wordings… As far as I am concern, Jesus is Lord in flesh to the extent of the existence of all the Creation upon the well-being of humanities are concern. So, God bless! may Jesus guides us all in the road we have chosen. I still believed that we all have the life to share to the world we live in…

Life as the truth, goes on. Death as the end of ones concern is as is and not of what is from what was.

Luke 12:4
[ Have No Fear ] “I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do.

lets assume there is a sovereign God, why would he want to convince pompous skeptics that he exists? his word would be enough…wouldn’t it? i mean in this modern democratic society where everyman feels he has a right to dictate to God what he wants( like he voted God into office), his apparent refusal to explain or show himself can be irritating, but we read in the bible about a man called Job who lost everything save his life and asked God for an explanation….God asserted his sovereignty and bluntly refused to be held accountable by his own creation….you want proof that God exists? u wont get it! because he wont give it to you! Jesus said ” an evil generation demands a sign, but non will be given to it…” methinks God has deliberately left scanty evidence for biblical truths and even thrown in some misleading clues for our oh so wise scientists! ..to go on a wild goose chase..he said in scripture..” i lay hold of the crafty in their craftiness …and turn back the wisdom of the wise” God seems to be saying ” I am God, sovereign, almighty..i dont need ur validation, i dont need ur acceptance..u cannot make me stand trial and answer ur questions on ur own turf..i do what i please and i made u to serve me, love me and give me glory, in doing that will u find peace and freedom ..but if u chose to follow ur way..fine..i will mock you and cause you to be further deluded and hardened and then i will punish you.”..if u’re too arrogant to accept the truths of God and call on his name in humility then keep on believing that man came from apes and the universe from a bang!and if u’re taking solace in the overwhelming numbers of unbelievers and skeptics..hope u know the entire world was once wiped off, save for a family..at least even science attests to a similar cataclysmic event”
so i wish skeptics and atheists the best, for those who believe in God and Jesus…hold on to what you have, do not put your trust in rites and ceremonies or in teachings of men, but let God transform ur mind and make you an agent of love and positive change.

@ oshonaire

lets asume that the bible is a word of men – after all it was men that wrote it.

yeah this guys sources are clearly biased. Didn’t include ANY reputable university, just bible colleges. if he worked for Chicago Tribune he could have gotten ANY University professor of religion. and they all talk about it like it is true because the claims are bold? I agree with DBJohn, he sacked the deck.

People do come back from the dead, it has happened before even today. it is a fact. are they also the son of man? what i don’t understand is if god made Earth in the time given by the bible, then how do you explaine pottery and bones dating back millions of years before that date, and lets not forget dinosaurs….
And why would he make all those other planets and galaxies.
all he needed was our galaxie.
And the ten comandments says thou shalt not kill.
so why are all religions killing each other if they are all doing what he has told you not to do ?

Vlatko – Yeah I see why you have those rules/guidelines in place. I just had an idea, maybe you’ve already considered it..

Instead of it saying like 100 comments on XYZ Video like it currently does, make a link right above that to a thread in the forum that was created just for this film (and if a page on the forum isn’t already auto-created for each film, maybe try to impliment that..). Then change 100 comments to 100 documentary reviews and maybe with a little reminder note to please keep it review-specific in regards to the quality/bias of the film.

I’m kind of drunk so I probably didn’t word that the greatest but hopefully you understand where I’m going with that. The point would be to keep the back and forth discussion stuff in the forum like you want, while still having reviews about the film. It’s hard to draw the line on where to separate that too, I fully understand…

(feel free to delete this message too since it has absolutely nothing to do with the doc at hand)

@Dave, LOL you compared a cell which is self replicating and subject to mutation and laws of natural selection…..TO A CAR!!!!

ohhh the religious people are so ******. i think we should just keep them around for the laughs.

Creationist argument: “the cell is complex therefore it needed something very complex to design it….however that very complex thing doesnt need something to have designed it….logic only applies to what i want it to”

complete retardation.

@Epiurius I used a car because it is a great deal simpler than a cell, but very well, tell me how many years you will need and how many scientists you will need to produce a self replicating car. This makes your position more difficult, not easier.

My argument is that complexity is only generated by intellect. As for God, I hold, as did the ancient Hebrews, that He exists outside of time, and this effects our discussion of causality greatly.

Modern mathematicians and scientists speak of a 10 dimensional reality. We have discovered that there were ancient people(Hebrews in the case I’ve been looking into)who were discussing a 10 dimensional reality long before the modern world. This is also relevant.

Because of certain discoveries I have made, I take a more classical approach to truth than many. You are very quick to assume that you understand my position. This severely undermines the credibility of any further conclusions you may reach.

Insulting me seems extraordinarily childish, and I assure you I am quite intelligent. Your statements on the other hand, would suggest a person who is unlikely to be worth speaking to, and I suspect that anything you do not understand, is “complete retardation”, and, that this is, all too likely, one of your favorite phrases.

I have not read all the posts on here but quite a few.. and all i can say is if you look at how the myth of Arthur evolved then you’ll see pretty much the same thing as with Jesus, of course there are plenty of real places, people and events in the Bible, that’s how a good storyteller works… i just saw the movie ‘Green Zone’ which is set at the beginning of the Iraq war, featuring George bush and some other real people and events, but featuring just as many fictional ones… for some reason most of the religious arguments just assume that if some elements are true then all are.. and nearly all historical evidence that is not backed up by something physical like bones or other artifacts is per definition, hearsay, it’s up to us whether we believe the sources or not, and that includes people who claim to have been witnesses. A whole town in russia claimed to have witnessed multiple U.F.O sightings at the same time on the same day…. does that make it fact?.. All that being said i don’t begrudge you your faith…but thats all it is… and nothing more.. and like i think someone else noted.. the more you try and prove it to be fact to others the more it looks like you’re just trying to prove it to yourself and the less faith it seems you have… peace and contentment to you all… in this life and whatever comes next..

You is sooo right, Mr Epicurus. I is dumb as a potater. Ize only thought I ize be smart cuz da US navy thought meze worthy to train in nuclear theory. Please explain to me the inter-workings of RNA and DNA and by what force(or what ever you want to call it) their whole dance, during cell division and duplication is orchestrated. I will tell you. It’s pure FM. That is to say Freaking Magic! We don’t have the slightest flipping clue.

But I digress sir for I am a humble and thoughtful soul, and I understand that my attempts to postulate how things work in 3 dimensions are not certain, let alone 10! To understand how things work in 10 dimensions we must look to your most glorious brilliancy! I therefor leave it to you to instruct us all in these things and in the very nature of time itself! since you are so very confident of your ability to grasp it!!!

Yes I am just a foolish fellow of meager comprehension, humbled by the greatness of your unsurpassed understanding of all things. I will speak no more, for I would be but a mere distraction to your most esteemed instruction.

My God makes a statement that is very interesting to me. He says, “So high as the heavens are above the earth, so high are my thoughts above your thoughts”. We are like mere toddlers acting like we understand the nature of a set of architectural plans for a major industrial manufacturing plant, which by chance has fallen into our playpen.

6 minutes in and he tells us he went for the ‘big-hitters’ as if that was an attempt to get the truth…..christ, would he accept the testemony of the ‘big-hitters’ of the Satan-worshippers as verification of Satans eventual victory over God?
I’ll force myself to watch the rest, but Strobel has already revealed himself. Besides the lack of evidence for a god…any god, Strobel and his ilk seem to me as more likely to turn people away by virtue of the daft word and mind games they play.

@everybody I always get pulled in to these debates haha. I’m looking for proof of God. Everytime I start to open up, I read a comment like,”God made earth and the moon perfect bla bla bla.” Thats when the science in me kicks in. Earth and the Moon arent perfect for human life. The earthquakes a couple months ago moved earth a few inches from its axis and we are still here. There is nothing perfect about the universe so it turns me off when people say God perfectly place Earth the exact distance from Sun so that we can live. Its so far from perfect!!!

@alex Saying many people witnessed it and trying to pass that as proof is ridiculous. I dont trust anybodies opinion before the internet! jk on that. Point is how can you trust stuff before evolution theory was discovered. Those people were pationate about religion because nothing else believe in. Of course they witnessed the ressurrection! Why wouldnt they! Thats all they know! My parents tell me I’m reincarnated from a specific person and tells me the story. Do I believe them? Heck no why would I! We lived in communism and to be spiritual was the only way to get them through. Do they believe I was reincarnated? yes! Do I believe them? No..

“forthermore, i doubt he was even an atheist. no atheist would only ask religious nuts, they would ask scholerly people who deal with history of that time AND ask the snake oil salesmen and go from there. this movie is utter gragedge but it does tell me how it is christens can continue to believe this stuff. they simply do not question any claim and only listen to their priests and their preists alone.” William

I understand your trying to make a good point, but I think for anyone to take your comments seriously you might want to learn how to spell. Most people would question your intelligence on any subject with such terrible grammar. I found your comment more humorous than enlightening.

@ oshonaire
ty glad someone gets it. im gonna go check my ant farm now.

I read this book a little while back as well as Josh McDowells book “More Then a Carpenter” and have been trying to do as much research of my own as possible to find the “truth”. I am a Jewish man who whether or not you want to believe me has found that for my own faith Jesus is who he says he is. Now, what I can say is it wasn’t as much of my readings into religion that made me come to this conclusion as it was what is going on in the world and in politics today that did. I understand that my statement may seem as if I am a nut, but at the end of the day Religion is a personal trip and for as strongly as i believe that Jesus is the truth and the way to G-d I also believe that it’s not my right to judge nor press my beliefs upon anyone. If someone asks what my faith is I tell them, if they ask why, (which they always do, because I am a Jew that believes in Christ) I explain to them why I believe what I believe and how Jesus or Yeshua has changed my life. The debate can continue no matter ho hard you push your on views, it’s up to the individual to seek the truth, and if they feel that the way isn’t through Jesus then that is their choice. The one gift which can’t be denied is the gift of Free will, which I believe was done for this reason and this reason alone.

Films, books, essays, art and any other form of self expression will always have some personal agenda to some extent. I have yet to see, hear or read something that doesn’t have in anyway shape or form the personal views and or beliefs of the author. Either way it’s your choice to believe or not. In the end is when will as individuals will find out what the truth is.

This is some really dishonest journalism, and dishonest scholarship for that matter.

Every single one of these scholars comes from an Evangelical Seminary or a bible college. The ironic thing is that the information is legitimate, but their analysis is ridiculous.

Just like the pharisees when it says Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. It says they sought all the more to kill Him. I am convinced that there is no evidence that would be enough for you guys. If the skies opened and he appeared to, you would probably look for some other explanation. Have you not made up your minds that you hate Him already, and that there is no evidence no matter how good that you will accept?

He said His message would be preached around the world, and that many would come claiming to be Him. Self fulfilling prophesy! Yeah whatever. No bigger waste of time than to post here.

Rob, I loved the horribly sexist stuff about changes in my wife’s character. Hear that gentlemen, you need to get yourself a nice hot religious girl and she will be a good mother, and not talk back. But seriously, I have this book sitting on my shelf, for what its worth, which is nothing but a filler.

Fine lets say I accept the whole Jesus existing thing, why not, this documentary falls into the classic circular reasoning: How do we know jesus is god? Why he says it. Where? The bible. So we just have to believe this guy?

I’m sorry I don’t buy it, sure Jesus existed, but I don’t beleive in magic and I can’t believe in some sort of level 20 magic user with a resurection scroll to go D&D on this.

Best argument ever, early christians were willing to die for thier beliefs, this clearly proves that what they claim they saw was true. OK I accept this, but we have a problem, lots of people are willing to die for thier beliefs, that doesn’t make them true. Don’t be rediculous people, or better yet, go die for your beliefs…

The Fool will boast and say to the world, “Oh how smart am I! for I know much, my knowledge is above all else.” And only prove how big a fool he realy is.

The Wise man although he knows much, will admit there is much more he does not know and boasts not. Proving how Wise he realy is.

most of what you think are facts. Arnt facts there just peoples opinions. So becarful whos oppinion you put your faith in

Regarding the debate…there’s always going to be two camps and one of them is the Religious camp and the other is Atheist. Jesus said he did not come to bring peace he came to bring the sword, I think he was talking about a division. Sheep and Goats is another analogy he uses. You ll be on my left or right etc. I just wish Atheists would take time to realise that his prophecies have come true…all of them…just check.

anyway thats the way i see it