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A Competent Democracy

2012 ,    » 152 Comments
Ratings: 5.20/10 from 5 users.

A Competent DemocracyA Competent Democracy presents a detailed analysis of our political systems today and asks the question throughout: Do our political systems today offer any technical approach to governing society and are our political systems socially relevant anymore?

The current economic system does not go unquestioned either.

Transitional tools on how to attain a much more efficient, healthy, socially and technically relevant social system are summarised in relation to which way we should be heading if we want to create social sustainability on a global scale - ideas which cannot come out of our antiquated political systems today.

SEE ALSO: I Lost My Job, Education For a Sustainable Future, and Punishment: A Failed Social Experiment.

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152 Comments / User Reviews

  1. John Jacquard

    100 percent accurate truth.

  2. Barbara Schanel

    Though I agree with some points made in the film, a technocracy, such as is described here, is not what we need to solve our current problems.

  3. chard01

    sounds to me a lot like stalinism with no doubt eugenics as an id**t me no likey tthis utopia bring back conan the barbarian


    unrealistic! The real question > Who controls the gold?

  5. Robyn318

    This doc is corporate propaganda. It starts by saying politicians cannot find solutions to our problems but technology can. Who creates technology?…corporations! Why have all the jobs left the U.S.?…because corporations deemed it more cost effective to apply new technology in China where labor is cheap than it is to retrofit it in American factories where Unions protect the labor force. And our elected officials have passed the laws paving the way: This started with NAFTA.

    In the U.S. we vote but our Presidents are picked not by the voters but the Electoral College; if the voters happen to pick the same candidate the Electoral College wants in office then all is good…but if the wrong candidate gets the popular vote the Electoral College sets it right. Four times this happened: 1) John Q. Adams 2) Rutherford B. Hayes 3) Benjamin Harrison 4) George W. Bush.

    At 12:40 in the doc is the corporate creed of greed. “…transition toward a new economic system without money whereby people’s needs are met through the application of technology but as a technical transition tool, a decrease in the working hours of all people can be initiated as a first step with the government subsidizing the public.”

    Read between the lines here! This doc is about a corporate hostile takeover of Democracy…world wide. They already own the politicians now they are looking to make them obsolete.

    Corporations are looking to compete with China using slave labor subsidized by the government. Any and all government subsidies (to non-corporate entities) are fiscally minimal. They have raped the free market system to the point of collapse…the U.S. economy is NEVER going to see another ‘heyday’ because of the debt to the Federal Reserve Bank. This is the message here: We (the corporations) own the democracies of the world (through campaign contributions); now we are setting our eyes on owning Joe Q. Public (the labor force).

    Virtually every country that adopted the Euro is in the same predicament that the U.S. economy is in…dire straits and for the same reason; someone outside the government owns and controls the flow of money that must be repaid with interest. This is legalized loan sharking on a global scale…it is a Ponzi scheme that is set from the beginning to fail because no matter how much money a government borrows to pay its debts, there isnt enough in circulation to include the interest owed…it is like having a 60 year mortgage, you can never be debt free.

    I’ve seen enough.

  6. GodmanEnki

    The ONLY "jobs" Obama is talking MILITARY JOBS! "Ruling Elitest Jobs." Not "jobs" for you and I. And the truth. You'll see, eventually. That is to say, AFTER IT'S TOO LATE!

  7. GodmanEnki

    NO....PEOPLE CREATE TECHNOLOGY. PEOPLE who "WORK-FOR" corporations. The "corporation," is simply "the WAY" it gets done. ORGANIZATION IS necessary. "Politicians" and "Corporations" are not. Corporations are simply a method of organizing ideas. "Corporations draw to them CORRUPTION by their very existence. Those "in charge" are MOST OFTEN "corrupt" in their own GREED. GREED is the "root of all evil." Not "Satan, Mara, Baal, money or any other IMAGINED ENTITY. "Out problem" is the leaders that we "believe" we "vote" for, when in truth, those "leaders" are APPOINTED. Ever see a "poor" leader? WHY IS IT, "THEY" are ALWAYS overtly wealthy? Remember, MCCain doesn't even know how many homes he owns! What that tells me is, he's been BRIBED so many times, he cannot remember!

  8. GodmanEnki

    Answer.....the ROTHSCHILD family. 500 TRILLION in Gold Bullion! More-than ANY country on the Planet!

  9. GodmanEnki

    1st it was "terrorist, terrorist, terrorist"...."9/11, 9/11, 9/11." Now it is "jobs, jobs, jobs." I think politicians, of ALL KINDS, USE "language" as a method of deceit!

  10. GodmanEnki

    "A working-class-hero is something to be." (John Lennon) "Working class hero"=WAGE SLAVERY. Black people THINK they are "free," when the fact of the matter is, "we the People" are ALL "wage-slaves." Or, "working class heros." DEPENDING ON ONE'S language. It's all RHETORIC...........

  11. GodmanEnki

    "Hope" is believing in something that WILL NEVER HAPPEN

  12. Robyn318

    In the beginning of the Industrial Revolution people like Edison and Bell created technology; today it is the corporations that employ people to create technology for them. When you work for a corporation you sign a waiver saying that anything you invent belongs to them…the one I signed included a $1 USD payment in advance for any and all inventions or improvements that resulted from my employment with them. My ex-father-in-law was plant manager so I took my copy of the signed waiver along with the $1 payment and hung them framed on the dining room wall directly across from his seat at the table…he was pissed about it but it stayed there for the 12 years of my marriage to his daughter.

    That corruption you speak of is the corporate lobbying of our elected officials to appoint specific ex-corporate employees still loyal to their cause. Do a Google search to find how many ‘ex’ Monsanto employees have been placed in positions controlling agriculture and livestock. Corporations own this country and our elected officials, now they are trying to own you and me also.

  13. over the edge

    are you serious with this figure?

  14. Robyn318

    That was my question to him, and the reason it hung on the wall in front of him when he came to our house.

  15. over the edge

    i do not know what kind of work you were doing. but in my personal experience in programming we had to sign similar agreements (along with non disclosure and non competition) i agreed to these things before i took the job and feel i have no right to complain about them after the fact. i traded my possible future ideas for a guaranteed amount of money. that was the deal.

  16. wald0

    Hear, hear- well, said sir!! It seems many of us feel this same way, so why doesn't it ever change? I mean you get online and there is no shortage of people that seem to see through the lies and propaganda, no shortage of documentaries to expose it all- but it never changes. I live in a very religious, rural area that is in no way represenative of the rest of the country- I hope anyway- so its hard for me to talk to people and get a real understanding of what is the prevailing opinion. But, obviousely most people still buy the b.s. even though the "online" crowd seems to have figured it out. So why is that, what is different about those that get online and discuss politics, watch political documentaries, etc. and those that don't? Is it that we are simply more informed, or better informed some how? Is it that we are interested and spend time thinking about it instead of just of going with our gut reactions? Whatever it is if we could mass produce it and expose everyone to it- we might fix this.

  17. Robyn318

    I think a lot of it has to do with being open-minded; people who are open-minded listen to different or opposing views and in the process gain a greater perspective on what is being thrown around as truth or good for us. When you have experienced enough information from different sources it starts becoming a little easier to detect the b-s factor.

  18. Robyn318

    I have no problem with having signed the waiver; I was highly insulted by saying any ideas I may come up with was worth $1. If they had said the waiver was required for employment, without the $1 bill I would have been as happy as a pig in sh**.

    I supervised the graveyard shift of production from 11 pm to I think 8 am. (It was a long time ago) I had no mechanics on duty, no assistants and had 25 +/- employees in seven departments that I was expected to keep running. This was a second job for most of them and it paid minimum wage so motivation was a huge part of my job.

    Im thinking about it now and laughing. After my first yearly review they gave me a nickel (5 cent) per hour raise; I was producing as much or more than the other shifts that had supervisors in each department and a number of mechanics. Anyway, after I saw the nickel raise in my check I went into the Head of Personnel and told him that the company needed the $2 more than I did and put $2 on his desk. I did this each time I got paid for a couple of months until they gave me a better but still puny raise. LOL I left after 5 years and never looked back.

  19. over the edge

    good for you. yes i mean it. i obviously misunderstood your original comment and for that i apologize.

  20. Paul MacLeod

    House of Lords is like something from a high budget pantomime and scenes from House of Commons, politicians shouting and baying at each other like an unruly bunch of wild animals! Civilized, Ithink not. It's just another way for politicains to maintaining a form of Tribal way of thinking, the Us versus Them mentality. Politics may have been useful centuries ago and my understanding is it has lost that usefulness and is now an outdated model for society today, as its basis seems to be more on personal gain than societal gain.
    I do advocate the Zeitgeist Movement and the transition into a Resource Based Economic model brought forth by Jacque Fresco's Venus Project.
    The reason I advocate an R.B.E. is that it seems to be the most logical, efficient and sensible approach to society and to the environment as a whole. Compaired to the social systems we currently employ and compaired to societal systems that came before it, I can see why people would think that an R.B.E. is a Utopia, but I personally despise the word "Utopia" and how its used to end discussions about other forms of social systems. A Utopia is unobtainable and detrimental to human and social evolution, as the word "Utopia" implies that we have reached perfection and nothing can be improved on. What an R.B.E. is the advocating is the use of the best technologies and techniques we have currently available to us and applying them to society for the betterment of all mankind and who's to say those technologies and techniques wont become antiquated in their own right in the future? In an R.B.E. things would be constantly improved upon, made more efficient and not be like a straight jacket for future generations yet to come like what a Utopia implies.
    Look what happened in the Renaissance in the late middle ages in Europe. Look at the changes that took place in culture, science and the arts, etc. Phenominal changes and improvements in just a relatively short period of time. What would happen, what would we achieve, if another renaissance happened on a global scale? I do believe that this could happen when humanity is freed form the debt slavery that is our current monetary system and cast off the useless labels we give each other, the Us versus Them mentality. There is no THEM, only us, we are all in this together all 7 Billion humans and not to mention the esstimated 8 or 9 million other species who'd also call this planet home.

  21. Washichu Rehab

    It never was about what 99% need. Wake up.

  22. Miron

    I think first we have to get around a psychological block. Accumulation of wealth have to be gradually removed as a primary value system driver. From there on process of scientific competence takes over. In a place where you can trust people not to f*ck you over you can achieve best results.


    I`ve been shouting this for years hahaha. nice to see it confirmed by someone else...
    Giving any id**t the right to vote is giving any manipulator the right to rule.
    In democracy another hitler can be elected...

  24. wald0

    I agree that R.B.E. makes sense and would create a peaceful productive society to a certain degree but, is it really realistic to think we will transition to a R.B.E.? In my opinion it’s not, so I think we should try to find other more realistic solutions. The transition, implementation, and maintenance of R.B.E. seems over whelming to me. First we would have to get everyone to give up following cultural and religious traditions, which seems impossible in itself. Then we have to get rid of political and ideological philosophies which conflict with R.B.E. and an inclusive society. Now that we have everyone on the same page we have to create the technology to do all of the labor and menial tasks, track and allocate our resources, etc. And here we run into a problem that I think will stop the whole project in its tracks, resource allocation. People are going to feel that when they submit a need for resources and don’t get them because some computer says it isn’t efficient or logical to allocate resources for their perceived need, that they have been cheated or mistreated in some way. Have you ever tried to convince someone they don’t need whatever they perceived as a need, it’s not easy and people tend to feel mistreated or discriminated against. Especially when Bob around the corner seems to always get what he applies for, or the city across the way seems to get all its projects approved, which is inevitably how people will see it. Then we get into the idea of not owning personal property, which is very unpopular with most folks. People don’t want to go check out a generic, one size fits all car or bicycle they want to own their own and have it somewhat customized at that. I know this isn’t a realistic expectation in the new emerging world but it’s ingrained into western culture very deeply, I mean unbelievably deeply. “God bless the child whom has his own.” is an old proverb here, possibly originating elsewhere but used here for over a century now. I don’t mean to make R.B. E. sound bad, I love the idea. I think it would be a great way to live, reminds me of star trek in a way which I always thought was very visionary in many respects. But I want to spend my efforts and concentration on something that we can really achieve and I don’t think we are ready for R.B.E.

  25. KsDevil

    Yes, it does no good to say engineers should build the world when the creation of those engineers are absounded by their employeers. Where's the motivation? Money, that's where. And once money is the motivation in life, the inventions will follow that ethic.
    This documentary shows no way to break that cycle. It seems only a society breaking, world shattering event can create a reset. That is, unless some brilliant mind(s) can find a way off this hamster wheel.

  26. harry nutzack

    RE: "visionary" status of star trek. the tech evolved to emulate pop cultural archetypes, at least ones that are ergonomically viable. our cell phones as developed were intentionally modelled on the "communicator" because of its "icon of gee whiz" status. development of same a few decades earlier would have resulted in a "2 way wrist tv" as the top level design, as the musings of "dick tracey" comics were "high tech ideals". (as evidenced by the prototype "man lifters" experimented with by the military mid-50s to late-60s, which all bore at least a passing resemblance to the "crutches and wastepaper basket" flying units of DT fame).the CD was conceived based on an episode, but its form of storage is the pre-existing norm in layout (a linear application of data stored in concentric rings or conchinoidal spirals to save space), as used by ALL vibratory based media since edison used a needle on wax to record "mary had a little lamb". smart marketing uses manipulation of your target demographic's minds to sell the product. the body styles shown on todays "car of the future" at the industry auto shows are marketed a few decades hence, once the marvelling teens that adored them have enough dough to buy them. the "brick" cellphone was never going to be popular with post baby boomer consumers, though boomers were raised with the "walkie talkie" as a tech marvel, so one that could call aunt daisy in wisconsin was "buck rogers as all get out". uhura's "bluetooth" is just a logical extension of the 40s vintage military pilot's "throat mic" of war movie fame, sans cabling. fortunately, the more "cultural" icons of star trek are seen much less often, as evidenced by a marked lack of gogo boots and coveralls in most fashion circles, not to mention those truly hideous 60s hairstyles. the "philosophy" of the show was late 60s psuedo-socialist with a dash of colonialism. roddenberry was more a great marketer than a visionary. later marketers just exploited his accomplishments to sell their junk.

  27. kamcord

    My dear friend,
    politics and politician exist becoz the prevailing asymmetry(information, intellect) among populations at large..we hv transitioned from brute era(kingdoms , monarchies) to era of consent of masses (democracy) and probably would move towards a system of self governance where everyone will get chance to have a say in day to day decisions of govt. eventually limiting the role of govt....but all of this is evolution not the re-engineering of whole system from scratch.

  28. Robyn318

    I agree with you that RBE looks good on paper but cannot be integrated YET into who we are as a culture and as individuals. We still idolize sports figures that make a million dollars a month, and we drool over the latest I-pod, smart-phone and electronic games. We are still psychologically governed by the ‘survival of the fittest’ mindset and/or religious dictum that pit us against our neighbors for the benefit of our progeny.

    In theory a Democracy is supposed to work for the greater good of the community and country, but we see how that has degraded, in about fifteen generations, into a model of corruption and deceit. If we cannot make a Democracy work in the short-run I do not see how it is possible to make RBE work for the long run and still have the citizens feel they have inherent freedom and equality.

    The same factors that make a Democracy work are needed to make RBE work; and at the top of the list is TRUST. We are so distrustful of each other that we have very complex legal systems in place to denote boundaries; home and business security is a multibillion dollar business annually; and auto theft and burglaries are an ever-present concern with everyday tasks. Family planning is another major roadblock for RBE implementation; as you stated there will be resentments, like those that will result from the different value individuals place on it.

    IF we are ever going to make RBE work we have to make Democracy work first, for ALL citizens. And the only way I see that happening is to do away with elected positions of power. Every citizen has to have an appointed position of responsibility, in a field of positions that range from decision making, to resource allocation, to checking and rechecking those two processes; and those positions need to be short-term and randomly appointed from a field of qualified individuals. To get these qualified individuals we need to completely revamp or education system to put a high priority on personal integrity and societal need over individual desires.

    IF we as a species are to survive the long haul on this planet, we have to abandon capitalism…everything about it is corruptible, wasteful and prone to causing resentment and inequality. Without a total collapse of the current economic system or a violent overthrow of the regime, I dont hold much hope for it.

  29. David Foster

    "Democracy"... Rule by the rabble. ~ Thomas Jefferson

  30. Robyn318

    No matter what system is in place to govern the masses and no matter how many checks and balances you use as waypoints, it always seems to return to corruption in short order.

  31. Robyn318

    I hope you are right, that we will eventually evolve into the epitome of a true democracy; but it seems the restraints of the brute era keep pulling us back.

  32. Nicholas Shaw

    Eugenics itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's just the flawed interpretation of Darwinism in combination with rampant imperialism in the 19th and early 20th century that led to the belief in the inherent superiority of a particular "race" and such unpleasant practices as forced sterilisation and genocide.We now know that in order to maintain a healthy gene pool, that we must prevent inbreeding and preserve diversity otherwise we may lose useful adaptations to environmental conditions that may arise in the future. The work of the human genome project means that we currently understand a great deal about human genetics and genetic disorders, and we can improve the human stock through positive approaches such as genetic counselling rather than negative ones practiced by the Americans, Swedes and Germans in the 20th century.

  33. David Foster

    Oh yes... EVERYONE is IN LOVE with the idea of Democracy! Trouble is; the MOB is an ID**T... barely capable of forming complete sentences, and infinitely more concerned with the doings of Lady Gaga than of it's political situation. They would be the LAST entity I would want making my decisions for me!

  34. Robyn318

    What do you propose as a solution?

  35. David Foster

    A "Solution"? Do you honestly think there is a "solution" to vanity? BAH!

    If you want "freedom", all you have to do is quit taking orders. If you want "peace", all you have to do is stop fighting. But if you want "democracy", I don't know what to tell you. The constant "call for democracy", as far as I am concerned, is just so many children crying because they didn't get their way.

    Now, I think the Iroquois had a sound political system. Theirs was a collective of "clans", whose elders (predominantly men) were hand-chosen by the women, and who were given the responsibility of making all of the really tough decisions. I don't think any of them really WANTED the position; or if they DID, that the electorate would have chosen them for the job in the first place.

    Unfortunately, a system like that won't survive long in the presence of "wealth" and "power". I don't think anything can, really.

  36. David Foster

    Also, I believe the biggest trouble with America is that we DO have Democracy. 99% of our problems stem from the simple fact that ever since WWII we've done nothing but vote for whoever was handing-out free pizza and beer; while our elected m*rons ran roughshod over our fat, gelatinous corpses!

  37. David Foster

    Dear moderator,

    What exactly is wrong with the word "Id**t"?

    ID**T - From the Greek idi?t?s, meaning: "person lacking professional skill"... which was EXACTLY my point!

  38. David Foster

    I would carry your argument even farther, and suggest that we are still subjects of ROME (if not Babylon).

  39. David Foster

    THEY are the Merchants; WE are the Market. All that matters to THEM is that we keep buying what they are selling. Understand THAT, and all of human history becomes crystal clear.

  40. Robyn318

    I absolutely agree that the American Indians had as close to a true democracy as any have seen. So how do you propose we as individuals, communities and a nation get out of this quagmire of serfdom?

    Are you saying that we should accept our lot; that it is the only way possible to govern the masses?

  41. David Foster

    The only way to "govern the masses" is to provide them with a sense that there is an eternal authority whose power they would never be able to subvert, and whose judgement they would never be able to escape. This is, as I like to say: "The Necessity of God(s)". And every civilization which survived the long-haul had at least one.

    But now that our numbers and our technical knowledge have increased to the point where we are no longer able to believe in such apparent nonsense (as I am so often told), I submit to you that we are no longer governable as a population. At least, that's what I have concluded, after having read many of the ancient texts. Your mileage may vary. But I remain convinced that the prophets of old were correct in implying that we would phuck it all up in our vanity and arrogance LONG before we ever found a technical solution to our problems.

  42. David Foster

    And on that note I am going to move on to less controversial matters, because -- aside from my feeling that this DISQUS software is not all that conducive to actual disqussion -- I believe that it is not what we SAY but what we DO that actually matters, and that none of us are actually DOING anything by sitting here disqussing the issue. Therefore, I see no purpose in furthering an argument which has been pointlessly raging since the dawn of time!

  43. Robyn318

    It is sites like this that allow people to learn and undo the brainwashing we received from our educational system via propaganda and outright lies. ANY movement starts first with a discussion, where ideas and closely held principles are put through a litmus test by others with the same passion.

    Each of us is part of a massive super organism called humanity; some being the eyes to observe inequity, others are the ears that hear falsehood others don’t; some are the brains that can mull over observations and considerations to come up with viable alternatives and still others are the hands where changes are implemented. Individually none of us have the talents of the super organism, but collectively we can make changes.

    I don’t see people as being the real problem; I see our current situation as the result of an education system that force-fed lies and propaganda on young minds and academically testing them until these falsehoods are ingrained as truths: those that resist fail the test and must repeat the process another year.

    I live in the Hudson River Valley where upstream, many years ago, General Electric used PCB’s in the process of some of their products and dumped these PCB’s into the river. A dam kept the PCB’s isolated in a large ‘pool’ of water until they dynamited the dam sending massive amounts of the PCB’s downstream. As remediation, G.E. wanted to build huge open topped concrete lined ‘tubs’ on the banks of the river where they would dredge the ‘hotspots’, put the contaminated sludge in these tubs and evaporate off the water where the dried sludge could then be carried off to contaminate another area. The problem is that we get massive rainfalls of 3-5 inches which would overflow these tubs and cause another contamination hotspot. Because someone else was the mouth of the super organism and made a phone call to me, I became the feet of the super organism and spent every weekend for months knocking on doors, talking to people and handing out fliers, on both sides of the river.

    When G.E. had a meeting to spew their propaganda, the audience was so large and so vehement against it that politicians got involved and not only stopped it but passed laws to prevent anything like it from happening in our entire county.

    So David, we can follow your lead and put our head in the sand because individually we are impotent to effect change, or we can visualize ourselves as part of a super organism and do our part so the next person with different abilities can do their part and effect the desired changes. This site is the framework upon which the super organism has attached itself.

  44. dmxi

    short,sharp & accurate!very well positioned & a simple truth which makes the reality of the issue even more terrifying!

  45. David Foster

    "ANY movement starts first with a discussion..."


    And for that very reason, it's a good gödda?ned thing we are the only species with an opposable thumb, or we would REALLY be up $hit Creek!

    Maybe after a few hundred more a$$ whoopings you'll understand what I've been trying to say this whole time. Until then, happy protesting!

  46. David Foster

    Nay, I take it back. None of you on either side of ANY fence are likely to understand what I've been trying to say until it's all over. And it looks like we're getting pretty close to the finish line.

  47. Robyn318

    @Davis Foster
    So exactly why is it you are trying to say. From my vantage point all opinions are important. It didnt work out very well for the Hebrews when God tried to rule them; they defied his will with every attempt to straighten them out, until (in my opinion) they were ultimately abandoned.

    You said, "The only way to "govern the masses" is to provide them with a sense that there is an eternal authority whose power they would never be able to subvert, and whose judgement they would never be able to escape."

    That philosophy didnt work in Afganistan when the Taliban abused them mercilessly; nor did it work Iraq and India; and it isnt working here in the U.S. where the population is overwhelmingly religious.

    I learn all the time at this site and the research I do as a result of it, so I am game...if there really is a just add water solution to humanity's misery I would like to know about it.

  48. Robyn318

    The initial part of any beneficial discussion is to identify and isolate the overwhelming ‘problem’. If you have been watching the videos for anytime you will have noticed there are filmmakers that get involved in these discussions; THEY have the abilities that I lack to take these discussions to the next level. By getting involved in ‘productive’ discussions here, you give them fodder and incentive to create more in-depth videos.

    There are sites all over the internet engaging the public in an effort to subvert the tyranny going on in this world. Some are ‘off the wall’; others seem far-fetched until you dig deeper into the facts. Every major breakthrough was met with resistance in their beginning; time and evidence to the contrary brings them to light.

  49. David Foster

    Heh... You want to talk Hebrews? That's another subject that's been pointlessly argued for centuries. Funny thing about that argument is that most people think it's about "religion", not "politics".

    I will give y'all activists one thing... You guys are always good for the occasional belly laugh; in that y'all expect us to get together on the corporate internet so that we can decide what corporate plaza we should all get into our corporate-made cars and go to for a good old anti-corporate demonstration. The hypocrisy in that is simply ASTOUNDING!

    Doesn't is seem at all ironic to (I'm guessing) your twenty-something year old mind that the closer we get to "freedom" and "democracy", the more PHUCKED-UP the global situation becomes? Oh that's right, I forgot... It's only phucked-up because we don't have a "REAL Democracy"! PUH-LEASE!!

    You, my friend, are just one more idealist, wanting to start just one more revolution for the same deluded reasons that have been driving us ever since civilization first crawled out from between the Tigris and Euphrates!

    Don't get me wrong... I DO love the discussion. I always have! Otherwise I wouldn't keep coming back to it. I'm just not naive enough to think that after ten-thousand years I am going to be the one to do anything about it.

    The outcome of our actions was known thousands of years ago. It was all written down in that little Hebrew-inspired book for the whole world to read. It was the ancient's way of trying to "enlighten the masses". It didn't work then; and they KNEW that it wouldn't... which is more than I can say for YOU!

  50. David Foster

    Forgive me, I don't mean to be confrontational. It's just that I've read all of the Zinn and Chomsky I can stand for one lifetime. And, while their arguments are pleasing to the ear, one only has to step back and realize that their actions do not match their words. The same is true for most who are forever screaming at me to "pull my head out of the sand". What they really want is for me to throw the first punch, so they don't have to get their hands dirty. Well, it ain't gonna happen!!

  51. David Foster

    "So exactly why is it you are trying to say."

    That humanity's fate is sealed, unless something with the power of GOD happens to intervene. I'm sure that's the last thing you want to hear. But, OH WELL!

    And I have enough experience with "religion" to know that most of the alleged "faithful" have no fear of any GOD, otherwise they would obey his law!

  52. David Foster

    And one more thing..

    You said that you agreed with me that the Native Americans had what you considered to be "the closest thing to a real democracy". Well, I submit to you that they had nothing of the sort! What many of them had was a theology, which was very similar to that of Hinduism. "The Great Spirit" of their ancestors -- reminiscent of Atman and Brahman -- was the one calling all of the shots. Nothing was ever done that might be seen as conflicting with His(?) wishes. That's the part of their story that always seems to get left out, soomehow.

  53. David Foster

    "The initial part of any beneficial discussion..."

    As I said.. There IS NO beneficial discussion!

    Example: I don't know one single person -- whether they be nine years old or ninety -- who doesn't know that every politician on earth is a liar and a thief! So tell me: why do we still have politicians? I'll tell you why.. It's because we keep holding onto this ridiculous hope that the NEXT guy we put in office will be some sort of super-human SAINT, who is immune to the corruptibility of public office. We overlook the fact that the only reason they even WANT the job in the first place is so that they can get rich, while having history record them as some kind of Superhero. And when it all goes to h*ll (which it always does), all we can think to do is bang our drums and chant our slogans, waiting for someone else to take the first shot!

    "Vanity of vanity", my friend.. "All is Vanity!" ~ The Bible

  54. Guest

    I have been writing over and one shows up and we make sure they know no 1 will... in the papers, on tv, on the net, on the street and riots...just plain oblivion. For a day, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6...until the message is understood.
    We are told that a country without fair voting system is a country that goes to shite....i think the US already has an unfair voting system and it is going to shite.
    What have we got to lose?

  55. David Foster

    One man's Tyrant is another man's Hero.

    It seems to me that you are hoping to "fix" the world". And I am telling you that the only thing broken about it is that there are so many out there trying to FIX it! So, if you don't like what's being done, then DON'T DO IT! And leave your enemies to fate. That's the best anyone can do.

  56. Vlatko

    @David Foster,

    I don't know if you call yourself pessimist, but you sure sound like one. And if I may add your pessimism is in fact religious cliche. You actually believe that our fate is sealed, which was told in the Bible long time ago.

    Yes, the Abrahamic religions can be pessimistic in that sense. One day all this will terribly crumble due to the very nature of man you say.

    It is obvious that you concentrate on the very negative aspects. Please do your research and you'll see that worldwide in the last 20 centuries: violence and crime declined, diseases declined, population increased, level of education increased, life expectancy increased, political awareness increased (we used to leave in brutal tribes, monarchies, etc.). Facts and statistics tell us that life in general is better than what it was 2000 years ago, in almost every aspect.

    Of course democracy is not perfect, and 90% of the politicians are corrupt and are working for themselves, but believe it or not that is far better than living in a monarchy 500 years ago, where 99% of the population was completely illiterate and very poor and brutally ruled by one family for centuries.

    Social evolution is a slow process. You don't go from stone age tribe to super advanced utopia in 2000 years. Maybe in 20,000 or 200,000 years yes.

    By watching the daily news It is easy one to assume that world is going completely in the wrong way. However on the long run things are going for the better. Whether they will continue that way? I don't know.

    Edit: P.S. And @Robyn318 is right. The 1000 miles journey begins with the first step. Everything counts. Your comments at this moment are resonating in someones brain and they will for sure make 0.00000000000000000001% change.

  57. David Foster

    Well... Fair or unfair, I think it all goes back to my first comment: that people just aren't all that concerned. I mean.. If you think about what it would take to have an ACTUAL WORKING DEMOCRACY, it would require that ever person of voting age take the time to sit down and contemplate every little issue having to do with everything from road maintenance to medical care to public sanitation. It would be a full-time job. And pro bono, at that! And, after you did all THAT, you would STILL have a cluster*uck of disagreements and and perceived evils. So, I'm SURE that's WHY we put up with politicians; because cleaning up our own messes is TOO MUCH LIKE WORK!

  58. David Foster

    But... I think one must consider WHY there are governments to begin with. Government's main function is, and has always been to facilitate commerce. Everything else is secondary. So this means that the court's primary duty is to keep things moving right along; even though we are told that they are there to "dole out Justice" (only, whose justice?). It means that the military's prime directive is to procure resources; even though we are told that they only exist to keep us safe from invasion. And that the job of the police is to keep US subdued and out of the way; even though we are told they are sworn to protect and serve (which is true, only it's not US they were sworn to protect).

    And this is the way it has always been. I don't care what a nation calls it's "system". So, when somebody says to me that "we need to get back to our national roots", or that "we need a better system of government", I just laugh.. Because, in the end --as it was in the beginning-- it's all just business as usual!

  59. Guest

    One can be blind with the right eye and see from the left, pessimist or realist?

    Almost half the world — over three billion people — live on less than $2.50 a day.

    According to UNICEF, 22,000 children die each day due to poverty. And they “die quietly in some of the poorest villages on earth, far removed from the scrutiny and the conscience of the world.

    Nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or sign their names.

    Less than one per cent of what the world spent every year on weapons was needed to put every child into school by the year 2000 and yet it didn’t happen.

    Millions of women spend several hours a day collecting water.

    And that's just a few facts about the inequalities on earth.

    I don't see what change your comment will make either.

  60. David Foster


    "...worldwide in the last 20 centuries: violence and crime declined, diseases declined, population increased, level of education increased, life expectancy increased, political awareness increased..."

    ***All of which constitutes the basis of my pessimism.***

    It is BECAUSE we have increased our scientific knowledge; cured diseases; improved agricultural methods, and increased our population to ridiculous numbers, that I say our fate is sealed (as did the ancients who foretold of us doing these very things). NOW, as a result, we have declining topsoils; diminishing forests, disappearing animal populations; expanding dead zones in the oceans; anthropomorphic climate change; ETC, ETC, ETC...

    Meanwhile, back in the senate room, our so-called "leaders" argue over whether to pay for the new hadron collider, or the latest communications satellite.

    We have constructed a world where, even though everything seems un-shakable, it would really only take the slightest disruption to throw the whole thing into chaos. One little power outage.. one little glitch in the 'just-in-time' food delivery system... one little ANYTHING to disrupt the daily routine of civilization, and the whole system degenerates into a state of absolute anarchy -- which, contrary to what some would have us believe is actually NOT a good thing.

    And our leaders KNOW THAT! Why do you think they're forever lying to us about the state of the economy, or about why they're always invading each others' countries? "Oil-hungry west invades oil-rich east, cries: "terrorism" - Film at 11:00."

    And nobody can stop this train. Nobody WANTS TO! Not anyone who has tasted the fruits of technology, anyhow.. What was it someone said about an apple?

    Literally everyone on earth thinks they have some kind of right ( be it God-given, or whatever) to have as many children as they want; as many toys as they can collect; as much entertainment as they can afford, etc, etc... It's human nature. But all of this requires resources, Vlatko. Resources that we are running out of! And what do you suppose is gonna happen when those resources are all gone? Peace and Prosperity?

    So, y'all go on wasting your time creating yet another better political system. I'll just be tending my gardens (at least for as long as they're still able to grow).

  61. David Foster

    And I'm sorry, but I have absolutely NO RESPECT for starry-eyed optimists. Their constant chant of "technology will inevitably provide the solution" is the disease promoting itself as the cure. As Azilda correctly pointed out, the world is no better for having it around!

  62. Vlatko


    Everything what you've said is true. Now compare that with the stats from 500 years ago. How many children were dying every day, how many people were unable to sign their names. etc, etc.

    As I've said we're far from perfect but way, way better than before.

    I thought you we're "spiritualist". Don't you believe your comment is making a ripple in our "collective consciousnesses."

  63. Vlatko

    @David Foster,

    Yes, yes the judgment day will come. I picture you as an old white bearded man standing in a middle of a some busy bazaar... and shouting about the coming of the Armageddon. I hear you shouting: overpopulation, resources, climate change, economy, politicians are lying... etc.

    Now those are the real problems, and the question stays open if we'll overcome them or not. I say we will, and you say the Bible told us we won't.

  64. YuriBCN

    *Detailed* analisys? Are you joking?! It is dangerously simplistic and does not even begin to deal with how this brave new world should be brought about and managed, in *detail*. Two words to describe what this video proposes: technocratic fascism!

  65. Robyn318

    By the way Im 62 years old…but thanks for the complement. I agree with you that every time we try to revamp a corrupt political system, it jumps gears and gets back into the same cycle of corruption. So what is the tether that keeps pulling us back into the same cycle of serfdom? What is it about us, as social creatures that allow ourselves to be manipulated by fear into appointing or electing public officials that create a military that absconds with our resources? The U.S. is sitting on a huge amount of oil labeled for ‘strategic reserve’ (military use only); why do we allow this to happen when the price of oil keeps rising and the resulting economy causes hard working people to lose their homes?

    Through these discussions we have the opportunity to peel back layer by layer, reverse engineer if you will, the reasons we cannot seem to break that cycle. At some point we will come face to face with the social or personal deficiency that allows us to go from being staunchly independent to controlled by psychopaths, over and over again… if we have the courage to keep looking.

    Government is a form of division of labor; we appoint/elect officials who will make wide ranging decisions for us while we go about our daily lives like good little worker bees keeping society alive and active. If you want to be a product part of this discussion tell me specifically why you think we (in the U.S.) have allowed our elected officials to legislate away our jobs; why our elected officials cant get rid of the Federal Reserve Bank and ‘borrowed’ fiat money; why our government mandated educational system systematically brainwashes our youth into thinking we are a free nation when it is very obvious (to me anyway) that we are still a colony of England.

    Pick one! Let’s try to make a difference here.

  66. docoman

    I find this an interesting discussion. One of the documentaries on this great site, A Human Ape (thank you Robertallen1 for pointing it out to me), I found quite enlightening, with relevance to this topic I think.
    It showed that humans, different to our closest relatives the Chimp, seem to be 'wired' from birth to co-operate for no immediate self benefit, and also have some inbuilt 'desire' to copy/conform, probably to fit in better with the 'tribe'. (anyone who's dealt with young children have seen this, they copy you and will help with most things out of 'innocence', not just personal gain.)
    To me this explains a lot about human behavior, our history, religion and forms of government.
    IMPO, I think religion was at first an attempt to explain the unknown, especially the question of 'why' for us, which was then used by people with a more greedy, devious, manipulative nature for their own personal gain for wealth and power. What we currently have is just the latest forms of it's 'evolution'. From what I've seen, all organized religions and forms of government disguise population control inside a message that aims to use some very fundamental emotions and 'basic wiring' of our species to 'hook' us.
    Governments/politicians seem to me to try to employ pretty much the same tactics, for the same reasons. The people we see are just the puppets of the real 'rulers' behind the scene I think.
    I do have some hope for us as a species though. If used in a constructive way this inbuilt desire to copy and co-operate for mutual gain could really 'kick us up to the next level' in evolution, so to speak. If we had a bit more of a 'hive' mentality towards collective gain rather then individual, and worked together better we could do much, much better as a whole then we have so far, I believe. (for example, the material and effort expended in WWII has been calculated that it would have housed every human alive at the time. How many 'Einstiens or Teslas' died in the WW's? And that's just the last 100 or so years, which is what, 4 to 5 generations maybe?)
    I think we have the capacity to do this, if we can rid ourselves of the 'greedy' systems we've allowed to take control. The first step to solving a problem is becoming aware of that problem. The more people that talk about it (such as here), the more people see it, the better the chance that it will create some change for the better. I think proper education is the key. One thing I noticed that indicates to me that this may be possible, is the Moon landings. It was really brought about by one country fighting a 'cold war' against another, but when it was accomplished, it was considered a 'species' accomplishment. I'm not from the USA, but I'm proud my species has at least made the start, and left for a short time our rock spaceship.
    Whether we will 'take the next step' or not in the end, I'm not sure. Greed is a strong emotion, regardless of initial wiring. If we create the right environment for the young to learn and improve that wiring, I think we can overcome it's power. I think many forms of Government preach a similar idea, Communism, Democracy, whatever, the central idea being do what's best for the majority. BUT, greed intercedes and corrupts most 'good' that could be done by whatever form of collective rule. If we could eliminate that greed element of our nature, we'd do a lot better.

  67. David Foster

    "As I've said we're far from perfect but way, way better than before."

    And on that note, I heartily disagree.

    The argument is always the same... "We have cured so many diseases"... "We've helped more people survive to adulthood than ever before"...

    Great! So you've managed to put ten-thousand servants of the empire where once there were only ten. Congratulations! You've increased misery a thousand-fold! You'd have done much better to improve the value of the existing TEN lives.

    You like Numbers? OK.. Over one billion people today live on the brink of starvation. That's almost twice the entire human population of two thousand years ago... There will be roughly ten million more people this year needing jobs than there were last.. Another ten million in the industrialized world who can't afford health care; yet they're not very likely to die because of the free vaccinations... Congratulations on all of that!

    You ask 'How many people could spell their names 500 years ago?', I ask 'How many people needed to?'. Not much call for that, if the tax man isn't beating-down your door. You asked 'How many children died every day?' Truth be known, I don't really care; because (apparently, unlike most people) I call that "population control". Not pretty, but necessary. After all; no one thinks twice about it happening in the animal kingdom. What makes human kids so special?

    Don't get me wrong, it isn't like folks don't try to address the world's problems... They held a meeting in Kyoto to try to address Global Warming; only the really BIG offenders refused to participate. Same thing will happen with the carbon tax (I just love the internet debate surrounding that one)... College kids chaining themselves to bulldozers, and jumping through city hall windows, trying to put some kind of brakes on today's rampant capitalism... To tell the truth, I find it all rather amusing!

    So, no, I don't see any reason to go stand in the plaza, shouting: "The End Is Nigh". Verily I say unto you that science is doing enough of that already. Only, most people are way too preoccupied with getting this year's Christmas shopping out of the way to pay any attention to such inconvenient truths.

  68. David Foster

    Funny thing about that, too... Christmas USED TO BE a celebration of Christ's birth. Interesting, how we can drop the man but keep the holiday. "Money Changers in the Temple", anyone?

  69. David Foster

    "So what is the tether that keeps pulling us back into the same cycle of serfdom?"

    The Christmas Shopping Season.

  70. David Foster

    Where do you see governments involved in 'population control'? If anything (at least in regards to western governments), I see them involved in 'population expansion', if only for the sake of having a bigger market base. Of course, I can see how that might apply to the west's treatment of Indigenous cultures, as we have to bring them under our control before we can setup shop.

    OK, so I answered my own question! :-o

  71. David Foster

    "If you want to be a product[ive] part of this discussion tell me specifically why you think we (in the U.S.) have allowed our elected officials to..."

    It's all just Money Talking. Those who love Money want to "Buy Low and Sell High". Therefore, because our own population expects to be paid an appropriate wage for services rendered, we are eventually forced to move all of our industries to our more recently acquired lands (such as Taiwan, Indonesia, South Korea, etc...), where (by design) people live in such poverty that they are willing to work for just pennies a day. And as long as We The People are reaping the benefits (in the form of cheap food, clothing, and of course, toys), we are all-too-willing to overlook the atrocities involved.

    And should anyone have any objections to the status-quo, which may in any way be construed as an act of, or an attempt to incite 'terrorism', there is always a nice warm jail cell available. I, of course, don't have to worry too much about that because I'm White, and I hail from a good Christian background.


    Interesting tidbit.. A couple of years back, I was flabbergasted to see Phillip Morris apparently jumping onto the anti-smoking bandwagon, actually taking out ads trying to to get people to STOP smoking. It all seemed like an extreme shot in the wallet, so-to-speak. Then I learned about the new markets they recently opened in Indonesia -- markets where there are no laws preventing them from selling to children; the old 1950's slogans touting "the health benefits of cigarette smoking" can still be peddled; and they can still extract top dollar for their product from the tourist industry -- and it all came crystal clear. A new market is always a welcome venture. And they don't have to worry much about losing business here at home OR abroad, because an addict is not likely to quit, no matter what the cost of his/her "fix".

    'Merchants' is what we are. 'Thievery' is what we do. My only hope is that someday we will all be held accountable.

  72. docoman

    Whatever the goal, expansion or not, it is still 'control'. Moving things in a direction they choose, whatever that is, is control.
    In the last few years here in Aus, there has been some talk about a 'big population'. The 'population expansion' you mentioned. I think one of the reasons we're a 'multi-cultural' society here. It seems our government, despite the BS politics and talk that's been thrown around for awhile here, want more people/a bigger market base (dictated by corporations). I personally think a population dependent on what the land can provide for is smarter, the corporations be damned with their wanted 'markets'.

  73. docoman

    I think the 'tether' that binds us seems to be genetic. It look like we're born with an built in desire to copy and conform. Once the system of control is in place, it's very hard to break it's hold, because we're predisposed to conform. As I've said, I think knowledge and education is the key to breaking that hold.

  74. Vlatko

    @David Foster,

    I don't think you stick to the arguments. I don't deny today's poverty, suffering, political corruption etc. What I'm saying is that the situation is much better than before. And it is a very slow process.

    Also it seems you're truly unaware of the conditions that people lived in in the time of Christ, and in every feudal or monarch society since. Those times compared to today are truly horrible in every aspect.

    And some of your claims, if I may say, are absurd, and a little bit fascist. But hay, so the Bible is. Here they are:

    By expanding the lifespan, more people are forced into modern slavery. What should we do? Decrease the lifespan?

    Poor, unemployed, and those who can't afford health care can't properly die earlier because of the free vaccination. What should we do? Abandon vaccination altogether so natural selection could take its toll.

    People didn't need to read in the past. There was no taxman. What is the solution? Ban education and taxation, simultaneously?

    Human kids are not privileged over animal kids. Let them 70% of them die on birth or very young, as it was naturally intended. Do you hear yourself what are you saying?

    In short, you obviously want to go back to the stone age, since according to you, that will solve all OUR problems. Plus it was professed in the Bible, and it is science's fault anyway.

  75. Guest

    "I thought you we're "spiritualist". Don't you believe your comment is making a ripple in our "collective consciousnesses."
    My choice of realist as oppose to pessimist was in regards to David.

    I have described myself as an energetic spiritualist who knows that there is a whole spectrum of relating that controls where the world is heading. Nothing else controls the direction, actions and reactions, no matter the subjects. It is a multidimensional game of chess. The most important move i can make in "any now" is mine, it is my way of blowing wind in a certain direction. And since i am here on TDF when i make a move that people (here) can read, then i know how important my words are (at least to me).

    As in many situations things have to get to the edge of the precipice for people to notice we are about to jump off the cliff or turn around or best go sideways. No one wants to go back in time, we like to think that we have improved over the ways of the past. What we have done often is improve in one aspect and create it's opposite in an other. That's why i say the best is to go sideways and we will.

    I love to see how the world is waking up. Search the net looking for positive actions, there are millions of ways it is expressed, search around you, you will see the same.
    There is no way to be certain about other people, one can only be certain about oneself. That's what living in the moment means. More and more and more people are doing that, call it spirituality if you may but anyone, of any backgrounds, holding any jobs, living anywhere, speaking any language, walking any king of body is doing it at times if not all the time....and that is causing a ripple.

  76. Guest

    Why do i get the feeling you want to turn this into a religious argument. It smells like a bait.

  77. Robyn318

    If anything the Bible should impress upon you that humanity’s fate is not sealed. We started in a perfect environment and Adam and Eve got thrown out because they could not obey ONE simple rule. They were both perfect in physical and mental form for their situation, actually created for that circumstance, and yet even they had mental deficiencies, why is that?

  78. Vlatko


    Nope, read the comments carefully. You'll see exactly who was trying ti make it religious. My fault though I responded "religiously."

  79. David Foster

    In ALL cases, large and small, you should:

    A) Live within your means.
    B) Stop stealing from others when your plate is empty.
    C) Mind your own dam? business.

    "In short, you obviously want to go back to the stone age"

    You say that as if it's a BAD thing.

  80. Achems_Razor


    "Why is that"?... because the bibles are just books without any facts whatsoever. Read...fairy tales! you are just following a story line, if you want to follow another story line that makes sense..."We must question the logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his mistakes"

    Gene Roddenberry.

    And then the id**t God planted the bloody fruit tree knowing full well ahead of time that the woman would naturally coerce the man to eat the fruit. As is as women are wont to do. lol

    Off topic I know but thought would answer you.

  81. Robyn318

    There are beneficial discussions: Jesus had them all the time with his disciples.

    And Im asking you what is it about us that has us look past the evidence of corruption and deceit and still believe the next politician in line; what is it about us that allows us to buy products that were made by 10 year-olds in a sweatshop overseas when we know in our heart it is wrong.

    The definition of insanity is: To do the same exact thing over and over and expect a different outcome each time.

    We seem to be a species that embraces insanity over reality, from the very beginning according to the Bible. My quest is to look deeper into our collective psyche and find out why it is okay to exploit others when we would detest it being done to us. Why we are our own worst enemy at times. Again, what is it about us that we always seem to make the wrong choice?

  82. David Foster

    Because if he can paint this discussion as just so much "religious mumbo-jumbo", then he has effectively discredited us (not that anything we say here matters in the first place).

  83. David Foster

    That question is so far removed from the point of this discussion that I'm not even going to answer it.

  84. Guest

    will you erase it then?

  85. Guest

    There may be 50% of the people who take the right choice while 50% take the wrong choice, the problem is that we always talk (more) about the people who take the wrong choice than we talk about people who take the right choice even when we are part of the ones that take the right choice....all in all it's a choice that goes all the way to the real impact.
    Good to work!

  86. Robyn318

    Im not going there! Im trying to have a discussion without ridicule and derision. I truly believe in the power of the super organism, I have personally experienced its authority. David has valid points, most of which I agree with about how the system is messed up, I want to get past the 'line drawn in the sand mentality' and possibly uncover somethings about who we are and why we allow ourselves to be exploited.

  87. Vlatko

    @David Foster,

    Don't play those tricks. You started the religious bait.

    After saying "We are doomed and the Bible says so", what did you expect as an answer. Maybe "Yes sir, your almighty God is correct."

    "religious mumbo-jumbo" indeed.

  88. David Foster

    You keep saying "corruption and deceit", and I'm trying to tell you "that's just how civilization works". You're never going to "fix" it. The most you can do is refuse to participate.

  89. David Foster

    I was merely pointing out that we are exactly where that book said we would be, and for the very causes it stated. I'm already well-aware of how vehemently the majority of you refuse to accept that. But, oh well... No skin off MY back! ;-)

  90. Vlatko

    @David Foster,

    And I was merely pointing out to you that you're wrong.

    So I'm asking you who painted the discussion as religious in the first place? You, by putting your GOD where possible, or me who just choose to respond to it (which I shouldn't have done).

  91. Achems_Razor

    Why we allow ourselves to be exploited? because we are still animals and came swinging down from the trees only a very short while ago, as animals do there are alpha, the bosses and there are pecking orders, and might is right, and so on, all kinds of human characteristics that are not far removed from the animals as in herd mentality, or hive mentality and so on.

    A lot of people would rather watch their favorite teenybopper diva on the boob tube than do something constructive as in maybe learn something, instead would rather be hypnotized and complacent with their herd mentality "we are saved" and "born again" idiocy, clinging to their gods and satans instead of thinking for themselves.

  92. David Foster

    When were we ever given a 'choice'?!?!

    OK, maybe that's not entirely correct. Here are some of my choices:

    I "choose" to go to work because there's no such thing as a "Free Lunch".

    I "choose" to shop at Wal Mart because it's all I can afford.

    I "choose" to drive everywhere, because here in America everything is ten miles away from everything else.

    I wouldn't "choose" ANY of these things if I thought I had a CHOICE!!

    I DO "choose" NOT TO VOTE because The Lesser Of Two Evils is STILL EVIL! However; it seems that no matter what I do, there's nothing preventing the Evil Dude from getting into office!!

    So, what choices do YOU propose? Because I am at a complete loss!

  93. David Foster

    If you want the answer my father gave me, it's: "You have to look out for #1"

    My mother was a bit more explicit, in saying: "Poor people are the Scum of the Earth; and if you give them and inch, they'll take a mile!"

    She's the one who handed me my first Bible, by the way. Later in life I asked her why she would ever hand me a book that she couldn't afford to have me read. ;-)

  94. David Foster

    But I'm NOT wrong, Vlatko. That much I know for fact!

  95. David Foster


    I must apologize. I lied a couple of posts down, attempting to make a point... In reality, I choose NOT to work, because it's the least I can do to to suck the life blood out of Uncle Sam (again... not that it will really make any difference).

  96. David Foster

    "because we are still animals..."

    When will we cease to be animals?

  97. Achems_Razor

    We will always be of the "hominidae" family which consists of orangutans, gorillas, chimpanzees, bonobos, and "HUMANS". No ifs and no buts. We are human apes.

  98. Robyn318

    The American Indians had a very advanced civilization, a true democracy where deceit, lying and political corruption were not tolerated and as far as is known nonexistent in the Elders who guided them. They lived very sustainable lives for thousands of sustainable that the white settlers considered the continent uninhabited because the forests were old growth and virgin. So it is 'fixable' and it is ‘possible’ because it did in fact exist; until the white man destroyed it by clear cutting the forest and turning them into fields for livestock and agriculture.

    Before 'The First White Frost' of European usurpation on the North American Continent, the Native Americans lived very bountiful and happy lives. What did the Indians know or posses that had them live the ideal life where the invading Christians of Europe did not grasp that concept. Almost every civilization known to man makes alcoholic drinks; they did not. The Indians considered the Earth their mother; the Europeans saw it as a resource to be exploited.

    These ‘noble savages’ knew what it was all about; lived the way every scripture from every religion says one should live, yet their livelihood and culture were decimated by an overpowering invading force. There is more to this riddle than religion. There is some inherent difference between the Indians and Europeans that allow them to view their environment and existence in completely different ways

    It is possible and it is fixable, it is a matter of getting the right minds involved that can motivate the right people to start a new paradigm of belief in who we are. The Indians considered themselves children of Mother Earth; the Europeans conquerors of her…we need to get back to that Native American belief and lifestyle; the question is how.

  99. David Foster

    No argument there. Still, we deny it was US who had anything to do with that. Always, we insist that it was our ancestors' short-sightedness and greed that was to blame. To these people, I say: "Then please explain to me what we are doing in Afghanistan".

  100. David Foster

    And, no, there's no inherent difference between us. It's just a question of education and values. If it were something different about our physical makeup then one should expect that today's native tribes would not be operating casinos.

  101. Robyn318

    The herd mentality only goes so far in the development of man via evolution. When an individual joins the herd for safety, he gives up a lot. He hands over his instinctive need to be top dog, often to someone who is far less capable. In doing so he agrees that his progeny will probably be less well off and if the communal fruits of labor are not sufficient for all, he suffers, which breeds resentment and theft in the civilization; as we are witnessing on a grand scale in our society. If it was the herd mentality, I think everyone would accept his or her place in the herd and that doesn’t seem to be what we are seeing.

    In thinking about it for a minute, maybe it is the herd mentality that we have to address; it worked for us in the past but doesn’t seem to be working now. What need does it fulfill that we are willing to give up so much for.

  102. David Foster

    So, then, you are saying that apes are not animals?

    You'll have to forgive me... I've had my face pounded into the pavement more than once, by people who insisted on calling me an "animal" the entire time they were doing it. I'm just trying to understand the reasoning.

  103. David Foster

    "...everyone would accept his or her place in the herd and that doesn’t seem to be what we are seeing."

    Nah! .. what you are seeing is a temporary revolution in progress. "Let them eat cake" isn't good enough anymore. ... It's the same old, same old... Give them a free iPod and a weeks worth of frozen pizzas, and before you know it they'll be back to invading third-world countries and calling everybody "?igger".

  104. Robyn318

    Another symptom of this insidious condition that seems to have control over westernized humanity is that we tend to live what I call ‘scripts’, written by someone else on the front of our minds through conversation, that takes control of the direction of our life. Sometimes they become self-fulfilling prophesies, and sometimes they are just anchors that hold us back from being happy in life. Like any monster, including the one living under the bed or in the closet when we are young, once we give it a name, it loses power over us. Scripts are an available option in directing our life or we can choose to make choices and decisions that make more appealing options available. Living a script is a choice not a decision.

    People because they are poor are not automatically ‘scum of the earth’. Gandhi was penniless and is considered to be one of the greatest leaders of all time. Geronimo, the Apache leader was driven off his land and had nothing but what was on his horse and he evaded the American Cavalry that out manned and out armed his tribe until he was too old and weary to run anymore. I was told by a client of mine that there was a college course about Geronimo that stressed his ability to use available resources; he was another great leader and by no definition scum.

    It sounds like you are not happy living your scripts, a lot of us, including me had to make the choice to abandon our scripts and use our freewill in everyday living.

  105. Robyn318

    It sounds like your choices are sucking the life out of you.

  106. David Foster

    "why do we allow it...."

    Oh, that's easy.... They'll kick our a$$es if we don't!

  107. Robyn318

    They have been westernized. There are a number of Indian reservations in our state and they have over the years tried to sue the United States for the return of property that was wrongfully taken from them. They ran out of money, they may be slow learners but they do catch on.

  108. David Foster

    Translation: "by the time they understood that they had to register their grievances through the appropriate channels, they ran out of cash to pay the lawyer's fees"... Yeah, it happens to the best of us.

  109. Samuel Morrissey

    O-O-oooh, I know the answer to this one, is it;

    What we (UK+US) are doing in Afghanistan, is making sure the opium keeps flowing cheaply whilst simultaneously pretending to be bringing the natives civilisation which mostly takes the form of death by blast, bullet, drought or famine, and to be freeing them from the yoke of the evil Taliban who used to be our friends when we trained them to fight against the evil USSR, but ever since the dastardly commies left they got this weird idea that they want their own country now, or something, mad huh? Obviously we can never make opium legal in our countries, or else they would have a legitimate business, and the price would rise enough to keep their families fed, and certain crooked officials at our end would be out of pocket.

    I wouldn't worry too much though, these savages know our little game very well, having played for so long, and they have learned to turn their turbans round when asked 'Where are the Taliban? ' and reply 'They went thataway!' pointing vaguely at some mountain or other.

    It's a win win situation all round, I think you'll agree.

    In fact it's so full of win I think my loser lobe has just had a stroke.

  110. David Foster

    in a nutshell...

  111. docoman

    I'm sorry to admit, Aus is there too. The silly thing is, we already do have a legalized poppy growing industry here. I've driven past a lot of paddocks full of opium poppies in Tasmania. But my government is doing what it's told and has sent our SAS guys in as 'requested', again. It doesn't matter which political side is in here either, both do the same thing.

  112. AntiTheist666

    “The herd mentality only goes so far in the development of man via evolution.”

    The Herd, The Cattle, The Sheeple, The Guardians of the Status Quo, The Mass Media Junkies.

    This bunch of dangerous animals is a very serious threat to Evolution of Human Kind and may even cause its extinction.

    “...and if the communal fruits of labor are not sufficient for all, he suffers, which breeds resentment and theft in the civilization;”

    Sounds like Nietzsche and Marx? Both good reads on this subject.

    “In thinking about it for a minute, maybe it is the herd mentality that we have to address; it worked for us in the past but doesn’t seem to be working now. What need does it fulfill that we are willing to give up so much for.”

    Perhaps something as simples as some N & M ;-)

    The Crucified One

  113. AntiTheist666

    "why do we allow it...."

    Oh, that's easy.... They'll kick our a$$es if we don't!"

    “I’m here to kick a$$ and chew gum and I'm all out of gum."

    — Nada, They Live!

    Nada = No or Nothing?

    The Rowdy One

  114. David Foster

    I think Ghandi and Geronimo were the ones my mom was referring to.

  115. Robyn318

    Mindsets change rather quickly. We, through our community police forces and National armies don’t need the herd mentality anymore; we have delegated the role of protection through division of labor. Is it something we refuse to give up or is it something that the media keeps cultivating in us? If it is cultivated, what deficiency do we have that we cannot get away from being controlled by it?

  116. Robyn318

    "I think Ghandi and Geronimo were the ones my mom was referring to."

    In saying they were the scum of the Earth?

  117. David Foster

    I wouldn't put it past her.

  118. AntiTheist666


    “ what deficiency do we have that we cannot get away from being controlled by it?”


    Only the belief that we are deficient is a deficiency.

  119. Vlatko

    @David Foster,

    I'm sorry but that is only YOUR OPINION, not a fact.

  120. Robyn318

    The deficiency that we allow ourselves to be deceived into thinking the corrupt political system will be fixed by the next election. The deficiency that we will be happier if we spend exorbitant amount of money on brand name items. That we allow our elected officials to legislate away jobs and standard of living. That we cant see past media hype and the control it has over our lives. That we know the Federal Reserve is bankrupting our economy and we just dont care.

  121. AntiTheist666

    “That we know the Federal Reserve is bankrupting our economy and we just dont care.”

    Please don’t in include me in your wee.

    Re your statement. Is this not a Double Lie? All truth is not simple said dear Friedrich.

    The Caring One

  122. Robyn318

    If you are not getting actively involved to eliminate FRB, you dont care.

  123. AntiTheist666


    “If you are not getting actively involved to eliminate FRB, you dont care.”

    What are you saying here? You’ve made a lot of sense up until now... are you telling me what caring is, like I don’t know? Are you attacking me? Do you think I defend these Monsters! Do you think that on its own is going to work?

    Seen as you don’t know me! let me tell you I do care!! Very deeply, future generations of my ever increasing Family are at stake!!! So quit moaning at me and do something about it yourself. Start with where you’re at!!!!

    The Crucified One

    P.S. I’m from the uK, I have nearer targets ;-)

  124. David Foster


    What isn't a fact? That people run to-and-fro, like chickens with their heads cut off? That billions of people go to bed hungry every night? That knowledge is increased to the point where nobody believes in gods anymore? That the cities smell like a$$? That you can't drink the water? That animal populations are steadily declining? That the mean temperature is steadily rising? Which part of that is only MY OPINION?

  125. David Foster

    BTW, it's that LAST one that's gonna get ya; because there's no political will to address it, and it's already way too late to do anything about it.

  126. Vlatko

    @David Foster,

    Don't twist the words. I said you're wrong for claiming that today is not better than 2000 years ago. I said I'm not denying what is happening today. Just compare that with the situation 2000 years ago. I really think you don't comprehend the gravity of the conditions back then.

  127. David Foster

    And you are mistaken about that. I comprehend very well what things were like back then. What I'm saying to you is that it doesn't matter. All that we have done in the ongoing attempt to solve all our problems is to create more of the same. And now, as a result, we stand facing our own demise, brought by our own hand. Climate scientists are screaming that from the mountain tops, as well as ecologists, botanists, etc.. and nobody is listening. Nobody wants to believe it's actually happening. Didn't want to hear it then.. Don't want to hear it now.. Just wanna go on playing with their toys. Can't blame 'em, really. Or can I?

  128. Vlatko

    @David Foster,

    OK if you think so, but I have to remind you again that that is only your opinion.

    You can always check the statistical data and you'll see that violence declined, poverty declined, level of education increased, etc.

    I'm not saying we live in a perfect world but things are way better. I'm not saying this out of blue. Check for yourself.

    However will we preserve or not, the question stays open.

  129. David Foster

    Hehehe... I don't have to convince anyone, Vlatko. The future will happen despite what you or I believe!

  130. Mateus Pimentel Brajão

    I think any kind o prediction is especulation. (Despite the big crisis going on Europe and North Amercica, Brazil is doing really well. Ok, we still a really unequal country, but hey! Thinks are better...It really doesn't seem like the end of the world down here, that's what I'm trying to say.) We can never be sure of what the future will be. Besides, certainty has been a dangerous idea sometimes.

  131. David Foster

    I don't speculate. I only believe what I see with my own two eyes. Again, the science is out there. Check it for yourself. Or don't. Really, what difference will it make to fate?

  132. David Foster

    But, Vlatko is right.. Life is so much better here in the west than it was all those years ago.. Where we reap the benefits of wars and of all the wonderful technologies they have produced down through the ages.. Where bountiful harvests of cheap goods and services flow like rivers from the sweatshops and brothels that we have seen fit to leave in our wake.. Where every man, woman and child knows that some day, our beloved scientists will invent that endless source of clean energy which will keep our glorious civilization alive forever. And no longer will we have to listen to the cries of those who tell of the cultural destruction and environmental devastation which we, ourselves, have wrought!

  133. Robyn318

    Im not attacking anyone, just giving my point of view. Sorry if I offended you. I am involved locally in trying to get people organized to fight our criminal element in the U.S. government. Just a bit of preaching, dont take it personally.

  134. John Marus

    c-, poorly done documentary, not worth watching imho

  135. Vahuri Voolaid

    Ooo, such a cute documentary. Banish all the politicians because they are the evil of the world and replace then with engineers - the future of our happy planet to be.
    But nevertheless, good work guys for the effort. Different ideas are always welcome.

  136. John Smith

    I like it. A bit dreamy. Full of flaws. But i like it.

  137. manfruss

    This Doc is 100% accurate in that our systems are failing the people of the earth, and benefiting only a handful of lucky few. Humanity will always need a form of government. Humanity will always need an economy. However, what we pine for today, is not what we have. We like to think that we do. Nationalism is a disease that can destroy the earth. Capitalism can be the same. We need to have pride in our diversity, for it is a strength, we also need unity. We DO NOT live in a democracy, we live in a political system that is more fascist because the governments work closer with corporations than they do their own citizens. We DO NOT live in a society of equal opportunity. Many have access to all they'll every need and more (from education to material goods), while others have nothing. The systems in place do not function. They were reached with small incremental choices that were all rational, and when looked at in their entirety, are actually disastrous. The same happened to Rome, the Mayan's, and any other great civilization one cares to study. Eventually they are buried under their own weight? We're no different. There are many good things happening as well, it's not all bad, however we can't let ourselves be married to the tradition and a conservative attitude. We can make the world whatever we want... let's make it a great one, not a corporate controlled, trinket buying usury one.

  138. manfruss

    You a politician?

  139. manfruss

    We need a global revolution. A peaceful one for sure. Sadly JFK had it right. "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable."

  140. ndb8

    What kind of flaws?

  141. ndb8

    You're projecting your values into the film.

  142. ndb8


  143. Tomsawyerrush19

    i haven't watched it but i can already say we're not a democracy we are a constitutional republic

  144. Stuffapproved

    Socialism doesn't work ... just look at Greece. A society based on a free market, private property, and free speech and rights is the only way to have a just society. Anything else will lead to tyranny. I'm sure most people wouldn't want to lie in a society controlled by A.I.

  145. Brad

    Who's "we"?. And you do realze a constituional republic can also be a democracy, right?

    Didn't think so.

    Let me guess, you're a tea partier.

  146. Direnc Kanol

    This is so ridiculous :D Technocracy is not 'competent democracy'. Whoever did this has good intentions but has no knowledge about politics and political theory...

  147. Devon Griffiths

    Free market doesn't work either ... just look at Argentina's disastrous experiment with it. All the best economies are mixed economies, and always were. It's no coincidence that as China moves closer to the "sweet spot" in the balance that its becoming a superpower, even as a 30 year experiment in deregulation in the US has witnessed the crash and burn of its economy. Too much socialism is bad and too much free market is also bad. The market doesn't regulate itself by magic, anymore than a frat party does.

    As far as AIs it will never be a socialist society that puts them in control; its unlikely they could even produce the technology. It will be corporations that create them, and the AIs will run the corporations, they will effectively BE the corporations. They will know everything you post, all your friends, where you ate breakfast and what you had if you paid for it with a debit card, and they will use this information to manipulate and exploit you in the same way corporations do now. They will feed your mind through the internet and other media, you will see and read the things they want you to, they will shape and mold you and your opinions and make you think they are your own by free choice - much like they do now, but far more sophisticated. The total power and control they will have over you and everything you do and think will be unlimited, particularly for generations born after the AI appears, whose brains will be washed from birth. Naturally this will include politicians and religious leaders as well.

  148. thomas

    to use the terminology of the documentary, with finite resources... comes conflicts of interest, compromises will be made and politicians are TECHNICALLY capable of mediating them. However the relative power of a few are too often abused. There will always be a need for politics!

  149. Xavier

    My friend if I could tell you I have been around since the times before Christ, I could infact give empirical data and evidence to back up my view that this has happened long before the birth of the first computer (late 1930's Germany). Since it is obvious that I have not lived through those times; I will just say that your points are true. But the same things you have just mentioned have been happening for a while. Just look at the amount of power a religion could have over a person's life, just as their subjection to the controls and regulation of societies within them. Sure, there are Anarchist and Atheist. Just tell me of anyone who in the entire human history has actually managed to create their own (out of their own feelings) ideology. I cannot see any of that happening. I could say that even philosophers were at some point influenced. How else could they have develop the passion to question Morals, or devote the time to analize their views with others which in turn modified their previous perceptions. Human beings, as harsh as it may sound to some of us, are in deed born to be "shaped and molded". The only problem with that is who or whom will act as the social artisans.

    Secret Societies
    Political systems
    Economc systems
    Media (influenced by all)

    Choose your master.....

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