Dr. Money and the Boy With No Penis
On 22 August 1965 Janet Reimer was granted her dearest wish: she gave birth to twins. The two boys, Brian and Bruce, were healthy babies, but they would lead tragic lives, blighted by one scientist's radical theory.
When they were seven months old, the boys, who lived in Winnipeg, Canada, were sent to the local hospital for a routine circumcision. Unfortunately the doctor in charge of the procedure was using electrical equipment, which malfunctioned several times. On the last trial, Bruce's entire penis was burnt off. Brian was not operated on. The family were distraught. In the Sixties plastic surgery was not an option: even today it is not recommended that new-borns undergo penis reconstruction operations.
It wasn't until several months later that Janet and her husband, Ron, saw a television programme that gave them some hope. Dr John Money, a highly renowned sexologist, featured in a debate about sex change operations on transsexuals. He had brought a transsexual with him who was convincingly feminine looking.
The idea that, without his penis, he couldn't be a proper boy and it would be better to turn him into a girl, blows my mind. Is a boy nothing more than his penis?
Is a woman no more than her breasts?
Because YOU, Richard Green, "would have made the same decision at the time" as Dr Money, doesn't make it "the correct one". This was SO wrong on so many levels.
Maybe stop butchering children's genitals?
That would be a start, for sure
Made me cry. I believe he molested those children and his student defending what he did when he knows within himself that Dr.Money was wrong. No one said sorry to that family! HEARTBREAKING
There another Dr. R*tard in the making, can you guys not see it?Beware of Richard Green. He looks ready enough to defend his "teacher" so yeah, brainwash case alert.
this is why you NEVER leave your child alone with ANYONE.....
I cried. That was wrong on so many levels. I cannot believe grown, educated adults made so many bad decisions. Starting with the thought that you even could "nurture" a infant boy into a girl.
very very sad one error ruined his entire life
I find it highly likely this "doctor" abused these kids, considering Brian, the other brother, killed himself as well. The last seconds of this doc really hit me. The parents, to me, seemed like they just wanted to help their child. This is beyond sad that a botched, unnessary surgery ruined the lives of so many people.
Nice, blame the entire medical community rather than address the fact none of these things would have happened if it wasn't for the r*tarded religious ritual of genital mutilation.
you are really disrespectful to religions but more importantly, you're ignorant.. at least read the wikipedia article about David Reimer before comment: "At the age of 6 months, after concern was raised about how both of them urinated, the boys were diagnosed with phimosis. They were referred for circumcision at the age of 7 months."
also, male circumcision is not genital mutilation. there are many benefits and it is suggested to prevent sexually transmitted diseases etc. so, a stupid urologist burned bruce's penis beyond surgical repair and ruined this boy's all life. if you wanna blame someone, blame that jerk.
If you know anything about the development of the foreskin in children you will also know that 6 month olds cannot have phimosis and that it is both normal and good for babies to have a tight foreskin as it protects the penis underneath from feces.
The sad part is that the first DR was not even educated enough to know that his own diagnoses was false. The USA is rife with this kind of misdiagnoses and if foreskins really did have all the troubles that the US says it has than Europe would be in big trouble. Instead you will find foreskin problems are nearly nonexistent in Europe and STD's are way higher in the US. It isn't because they are born with different penis's. The reason Europe does not circumcise it's newborns is because there is no benefit. If you want to prevent sexually transmitted diseases you use a condom not surgery on non consenting minors.
'Disrespectful to religions..', give me a break..... It's about time infants had human rights to reject bodily mutilation unless they understand what is happening, i.e. later, much later. And circumcision is mutilation pure and simple, both male and female versions. It smacks of supreme arrogance to those who see no evidence of any deity. And please tell us more about the 'many' benefits you mentioned but neglected to elaborate. Was Jesus circumcised? How about Mary? Time to wake up y'all.......
They used that poor kid as a lab-rat. I am personally a scientific person but it does have it's limits. If what you are doing is going to harm someone, especially a child you NEVER do it. RIP David. I am so sorry you suffered.
So tragic the loss of these two young men first due to our culture's disgusting belief that it is acceptable to subject nonconsenting, underage male children to Male Genital Mutilation ("circumcision") and second, due to the physical, sexual and emotional abuse that Dr. Money inflicted upon David and Brian. This is unconscionable!
I had heard about this story, but have avoided watching it until now. I am shocked and horrified by what happened to David and his family. From my perspective, which won't be shared by everybody, it is a case of a doctor/scientist playing god. I can truly relate to some of what David suffered, although my experiences were different and far less extreme. I was born with a severely deformed penis. I had in excess of 30 operations from age 13 - 16. After 13 years of surgery I
was discharged and deemed 'cured'. What nobody considered, or enquired was the psychological effect of those 13 years, of highly invasive and intensely personal treatment on me as a child. This is the first time I have heard of any other person talking about how it feels to be stripped and have your genitals photographed by the medical profession, I am so relieved to find out it's not just me being over-sensitive, to relive this and many other intensely personal
experiences at the hands of the medical profession, as traumatizing and humiliating. I was as a child, adolescent and young adult severely affected psychologically by this treatment, and I still am to this day. In David's case and in my own experience the treatment may have been well intentioned, but it could and should have been stopped much sooner, as it became clear it wasn't working and other damage was likely to result. RIP David.
Ya...And NO MORE PIERCINGS either!!!! We've all seen these sick parents that mutilate their children's ears, nose, eyebrows, etc etc. stop it let the child grow up and decide for themselves. I have witnessed many times in shopping malls...mothers restraining their screaming child as they tear holes in the childs body...and just to decorate and accessorize the child. For what?...and For who?
What do piercings have to do with this story? :S
I see absolutely no similarities between piercings and this documentary.
I do. If they are done on minors who cannot provide informed consent they are very similar.
Piercing is a type of bodily mutilation, and in this example it is bodily mutilation beyond the control of the mutilated.
Their "parents", together with the "doctor" need to be shot....
The parents were very young themselves, barely out of their teenage years. At the time the doctor had credibility in their eyes
So sad, another case of a scientist going to far. I understand the need for scientific advancement but sometimes they need to know when they are going to far.
John Money is a SICK human being! What a pedophile!
Wow, I watched this eight years to the day that he killed himself. RIP David. Dr. Money was a POS for what he did to them. RIP Brian as well.
Oh, I forgot! The 'scientific' method only became popular in the sixties. Before Medawar championed Popper's hypothesis, I doubt that anyone paid any attention to why 'they did science'. 'Objective knowledge' had a profound effect on the behaviour of scientists, more so, I believe, than Kuhn and this continues to this day. And what is Popper's hypothesis? Just that!
I think that there seems to be a certain number of patholigically obesessed males with 'foreskin fixations' on here! The real question is: was Dr Money 'right' to do what he did? Hindsight is always 20/20 and I fear that Money does not deserve the ire proclaimed throughout these posts. The nuture/nature debate had been raging for over fifty years in psychological circles and Money was simply one side of that. Money only stated that there was no (little) gender identity before the age of two. This seems to be reasonable as there appears to be little evidence of identity (of whatever type) at all prior to that age; very small children are 'stimulus/response' machines. More importantly, little research had been done and such accidents and intersex births are rare; we have 35 years of further cases to back up any theory which WE might have.
We decry 'barbaric' practices of the past, electric shock stimulation, trepanning, blood letting etc, from our 'priveleged' viewpoint in the 21st century but we are just as clueless as those doctors were in the past. We just have more of a wealth of empirical evidence!
Oh, by the way, I have an intact foreskin! And I like the way it slides! But that's just me!
Such a cheap shot from you,there is no medical benefit from circumcision period, there was absolutely no reason for this poor man to be mutilated at birth,indeed in there rush to find a solution(to make him female) it messed with his head so much he commited suicide,he was male in the womb and he was male orientated at birth,trying to turn him into a female only exacerbated a troubled child, shame on "DR"Money,as the parents were just following a trend,he should have not let his ego get in the way for what was a psycological problem which he did not understand.
Actually there are several medical benefits, to suggest that there are none is dismissive. If an uncercumcized penis(UP) is wielded by a man with a low level of hygene the smegma's bacteria count goes way up and in some studies is showing an increased chance of penis cancer(check out penis cancer rated in uncircumcised nations vs. predominately circumcised ones), but not too much more than an uncircumcised penis. The real problem is when these less than clean penises are being inserted into a vagina on a regular bases over years. If greatly increases the risk of cervical cancer.
One could argue this is why it was implimented in the past duing a time when soap and running water were scarce.
Thankfully today more people have access, but as every mother knows its hard enough to get a young boy to wash even behind his ears...and some mothers don't even worry about that.
So maybe if it would be stated medically as a choice between the forgotten pain of a baby or a % of the seven plus million women who die from cervical cancer.
My opinion is to get of the preachy (leaned from afternoon media and magazines) wagon and demand further study...if you give a crap for real.
if you believe in evolution (not saying you do) then why would this problem not be corrected? We came from monkeys but we can't get the most important part to change? I don't buy it...
"We came from monkeys but we can't get the most important part to change?".......
Looks like you've got a 0% understanding of evolution mate, try some study.....
80% or the worlds males are intact & they aren't suffering from these issues that you claim. Males are more likely to suffer from breast cancer than they are to suffer from penile cancer & yet we don't remove breast tissue at birth. In Countries that don't routinely circumcise their STD rates & cervical cancer rates are lower.
As for washing.. I had a harder time getting my boys to wash their hair yet I didn't subject them to electrolysis. What male doesn't pay EXTRA attention to their penis?
Malcolm, I agree with you. Money was not just the person who created misery in the lives of the Reimer twins. He was also the researcher who pioneered transgender surgery, who brought hope to so many people who considered their cases hopeless, and who also did groundbreaking research into the continuum of sexuality, via "Gay, Straight, and In-Between". I so feel for the Reimer family. What happened to them was so much, it seems to me, the result of hubris, plain and simple. Money, in my opinion, became a victim of his own sense of righteousness in this case. And that ended up overshadowing the positive work he did, in showing that human sexuality cannot be measured in black-and-white terms. If there's a lesson here, it's that science has a place in following the human experiment which is life; but it has no place in interfering with that experiment for its own ends. To do so--whether you are John Money or Josef Mengele--invites the negation of anything positive you may have contributed; it leaves behind you only the taint of barbarism and ego.
The last 2 posts are in reply to COURT,the second is from a medical appraisal of the uncircumcised penis, and the medical facts back up my 2 previous statements thank you and goodnight !
Medical studies have shown that men with both circumcised and uncircumcised penises have satisfactory pleasure during sexual intercourse; however uncircumcised penises tend to be more sensitive to sexual stimulation. This is because the foreskin works in a number of ways to maximize sexual pleasure:
The foreskin functions to protect the sensitive glans (head) of the penis, keeping it moist and protecting it from rubbing against clothing, which can slowly desensitize the glans.
The foreskin itself is also very sensitive and rich with nerve endings, making it very sensitive to stimulation. The inner foreskin and frenulum are the more sensitive parts of the foreskin.
The foreskin works to facilitate a natural sliding motion during sexual intercourse and masturbation. The foreskin slides up and down on the head of the penis, which not only stimulates the foreskin itself, but also provides additional stimulation to the head of the penis. The natural motion of the foreskin also allows masturbation without the use of additional lubrication.
While sex is certainly pleasurable for both circumcised and uncircumcised men, the uncircumcised penis is fully equipped to receive the maximal stimulation provided by sexual intercourse, oral sex, and masturbation.
That's a daft statement, a circumcised glans developes a keritonised rough covering to compensate for the removed foreskin,as the foreskin is retractable it exposeses all the rich nerve endings which are very sensitive to the touch, whereas a keritonised glans covers all the sensitive nerve endings making it less sensitive,once an uncircumcised a male has ejaculated he will more often than not, not let his partner touch it as the glans is still sensitive but not in a sexual way it becomes unbearable and very discomforting to the touch,, i am a male with my foreskin in tact,thank god,and have not been mutilated.
Very interesting documentary. One thing that struck me was that the kids didn’t know the difference between what female and male babies looked like. I grew up in approximately the same era, also on the Canadian Prairies, and mobs of kids with constant diaper changers was a given. Were these kids sheltered to the point of repression?
The doctor also focused early on how Brenda wasn’t quite a ‘normal’ girl when he kept pushing (from age 7 on) for surgery.
I really question how strong the stereotypical typing in the family was to upset the boy brother so much. The documentary didn’t mention how the schizophrenic brother died. I wonder if the shock of his reality changing so much contributed to his disorder.
The only positive note of the study is that they found that nurture has nothing to do with gender identity, and even hormonal influences aren’t enough to influence future identification (No testosterone from age 2).
Can the world now quit fighting against gays and transsexuals? Accept gender preference and sexual orientation as unchangeable? I certainly hope so. Otherwise, this tragic story is a waste.
I was born about 10 years earlier... It was a dark time sexually... Many parents taught their kid NOTHING about sex. I had no idea little girls were different physically than boys for far longer than I care to admit. ... ALSO was the dominance of emerging "modern" medical technology and surgery. .. They thought they could simply cut into the human body and fix just about ANYTHING they couldn't invent a pill to "cure"... Tonsilectomies for example, to "cure" sore throats were common - I was saved this mutilation because my parents were aware of "new" thinking in medicine that the tonsils actually served an important purpose... Doctors and scientists really thought they were gods. ... With their medicines and antibiotics they were viewed as saviors. ... It was easy then for a Psychologist to advance "revolutionary concepts"... Add the profit motive for making a brand new "scientific breakthrough" and you have set the stage for this and many other tragedies... It's pretty much the same stage today, but we have a good 70 years of hindsight...
This was truly hell on earth for this family, I can not image what they went through! Are there any members of the family still living? If so, do they have any legal recourse against dr money's estate or the university? I sure hope that they do! May dr "mengele" money rot in Hell!
This is such a horrible tragedy. The only good to come of any of it, is because of David Reimer, this Joseph Mengele wannabe and his theories on sexuality and gender have been completely discredited in the field of human sexuality.
What a shame, he was such a good looking guy, and who knows what he might have done with his life if not for what happened, that was beyond his will, that goes for his brother too.
Heart breaking !!
Dr Money was so very wrong
John Moneys theories are still regarded as the word of God here in Sweden by most politicians ans social "scientists"...
I´m sorry, but your totally wrong. I´m a swede and as far as I know, there aren´t any doctors in Sweden who belive you can actually turn a non-transgender boy into a girl. It´s just rubbish to say that.
What lot´s of swedish doctors, and researchers, and feminists belive is that gender is not dictated by physical sex but by social context. Gender is one thing, sex another. Thats not a very uncommon wiew in other western countries either, Swedens not at all special.
Dr Money was a selfish prick who was only about proving his theory correct. When a child (or in this case two) say that felt violated, were made to take off there clothes and were put in sexual positions while being photographed, why were they being called liars? Why would a child make that up? I can't remember the nobs name who was Dr moneys student saying that the children were over playing the situation, what a f--k head! Dr Money used that family as lab rats with no concern for the mental health of both children. If he really was a smart man he would have consider this...... maybe he did and didn't care, he seems like the type. I feel sorry for the mother in the sense that she felt helpless but also slightly angry at her as well for letting this man completely destroy her family! Dr money needs a nice round house kick to the nuts....... i think i have said my piece.
I so wish I could go back in time and protect myself aganst those sick bastards from cut off the skin, nerves and tissue off my penis. I feel that I have the right to be compensated with money or tie that sick sh*t up and cut cut the f*ck out of him untill he stops crying and see if its ok then?
Just goes to show how you can't just CHOOSE your gender or sexuality (hint hint most religions)
That end remark was really disturbing. Truly a thought provoking and realy sad but good doc.
This is literally the saddest thing I've seen in my entire life.
What do they think they mean by 'routine circumcision'? In that, lies the problem.
The real criminal here is the doctor who agreed to maim children's genitals.
The foreskin is not a birth defect, LEAVE KID'S DICKS ALONE YOU SICK BASTARDS!
7 mos is damned old for a circ. why did they decide so late?
The problem was to mutilate them at all.
Foreskins aren't a birth defect, leave kid's genitals alone.
He was only circumsised because he and his brother had Phimosis.
Wrong, all babies have "phimosis" so to speak (the term is often used wrongly). The foreskin is physically attached to the glans by keratin so both grime and urine doesn't seep under the foreskin during infant years. The keratin recede with age and the foreskin can be retracted. Phimosis, the term, gets thrown around loosely. It can only be used when the individual's foreskin still remains tight after the foreskin loosens from the glans. The time varies, but it is many years after six month, the date when these two boys were circumcised.
If anyone is interested, the foreskin of the clitoris can also suffer from the same phimosis, but you never see a doctor jumping on that.
As a R.N. I can tell you that is incorrect. Phimosis does exist, and adolescents can and do have foreskins that do not "recede" with age and cause much pain with an erection. Also, as the mother of 2 teenaged boys, both uncircumcised at the insistance of their father, who is circumcised, young boys are notoriously lax in their hygiene in their pre-pubescent years. And since Mom can no longer supervise bathing time because "I'm too grown for you to be in here!", and daddy who insisted on their natural state is far too busy, irritations and fungal infections are common under the foreskin of little boys who either don't wash well or don't rinse off soap well enough. Most pediatricians in private advocate for circumcision, as it is healthier and more hygienic, but due to changing attitudes and male obsession with their members, will not voice this to their patients' parents. All that being said, the horror here was using the relatively new science of electric cautery to circumcise a tiny penis, and, in the end result, mutilating a child for life. This Dr.'s solution was to then use these children as his personal guinea pigs in a twisted game of abuse cloaked as science. May God grant David the peace in death he never knew in life.
This Richard Green man is an idiot! I'm more afraid of him Dr. Money. Human sexuality is a very very delicate thing that God and nature have control over and NOBODY else. I'm a gay male and have been this way since I can remember. Judge me if you want...hell I can judge me if I want. It ain't gonna matter much because I'm still a Gay male!
The claim made near the end, that nature overrides nurture universally, is incorrect and is in conflict with what i perceive to be overarching theme of the film; people shouldn't take it upon themselves to decide what someones "nature" (in any respect) should be
Dr. Money should go to jail.
Just because he didn't have a penis...doesn't mean he wasn't a man.
This isn't right...
It was STILL A BOY...who would have to grow up with no penis...
Its very possible...
Talk about f*cking with nature.
It is not okay to strap down a helpless child and cut apart his penis. In any other context, it would be a chargeable offense. But because a "doctor" is doing it and "caring parents" believe it is acceptable, the practice continues. Circumcision of minors is disgusting and abusive. It has no place in a civilized and caring society.
judging by this womans speech she might have been a victim of some sort of mind control or some sort of brain trauma.I think the parents were connected to this doctor because why did they let this doctor do experiments on their kids? i wikipedia them and it says the doctor made the two boys have sex! what parents would allow this??? The parents had to be victims too in order to let something like this go down.Look up mind control documentaries on here and also look up sexual rituals on google and you will see that this is classic mind control and sexual rituals performed by a handler.
Why did the parents let the doctor cut apart their perfect little newborn baby?
i dont think there was a villian in this story. everyone thot or hoped that what they were doing was for the best. nobody really knows that much about sex even today, in spite of all the research. i think the most important thing to take away is to let your kid develop their own sexuality or gender identity. by trying to coerce it, you only confuse them and can cause great unhappiness. also, parents, teach your kids tolerance. do not allow your kids to bully or be cruel. no child, no one, deserves to be picked on cuz they are different. we r all different, not better or worse.
dr. money was a little evil. he had a professional obligation to report the truth and reveal that there were problems with his theories about nurture and gender identity. but ppl get wedded to their perspective and i dont think what he did was intentional. i wonder what he thinks today.
if my daughter wd hurry up and give me some grand-babies, i will try to weigh in with my busybody ideas and try to discourage it.
Circumcision caused all of this. There would be no story had David's parents protected him.
Perfect that which has been left imperfect (circumcision)... Hmmm similar to the freemasonic philosophy
dude chill out, your creeping everyone out with your extensive knowledge on circumcisions. I'm starting to think that since you have routinely kept up with this comments thread for over a year that you have some sick obsession with foreskins. Get out there and start living your life rather than mourning the loss of the skin from your penis. Now I can't speak for every woman cause I'm sure there are plenty who do, but this was a popular discussion amongst the girls in my dorm and every one of us preferred or found a circumcised penis more attractive.
I for one am lucky that my parents were educated and left me intact.
This is more than a matter of circucision or not. Most men and women think that it is a crime to circumcise girls, what is the difference? Do not circucise out of ignorance.
Just because you were most likely raised in the US, Canada, New Zealand, or Australia, you are used to circumwacked males, because that is what you grew up with.
My wife is Canadian born and was used to the practice of circumcision. Getting married to me, she mentioned that it was more fun to play with. I made it a habbit to shower prior to having sex with my wife. Sex is so much better when both are clean after having washed up.
You are entitled to your preference, however when it comes to taking a chainsaw to a new born's penis, it is a crime.
Circumcision between males and females is different, because in the case of males, it is something that is done for health reasons, because a circumcised penis doesn't hold as much bacteria as an uncircumcised. In the case of a female circumcision, the only intent is to remove the clitoris (the only part of the human body that is designed entirely for pleasure. Do not equate the two--female and male circumcision--because the principle upon which each is performed is vastly different.
You are totaly wrong in your statment, cicumcision in males is not neccsary. the forskin gives pleasure to the male and is filled with sensitive nerves that can be stimulated, it also protects the glans and stops it from being Keritinised whitch make's the glans lest sensitive during sex, many cicumsised males miss out on the natural state of a penis with foreskin, the argument that it is done for health reasons is bogus and shows little understanding of male genitalia.
are you a girl or boy? if your a girl how would you know how they feel? if your not a circumcized male then once again how would you know?? following a written word doesn't mean it's neccisarly right.. how could anyone possibly know the difference unless they had 2 penises one and cirumcized one one not..
She may hear from a male friend and/or her husband/companion.
@ Angelica Guerrero. Absolute bull****. Your purposely mixing circumcision with genital mutilation to add weight to your argument, and quite frankly, it's so obvious it's painful.
Female circumcision is not removing the clitoris, that's the equivalent to removing the glans off of a male. Female circumcision is the removal of the clitoral hood or labia. Like circumcision for a male, it doesn't effect the function of the reproductive organs. Of course, both cases involve loss of sensitivity and lubrication.
Also, your bacterial argument should be rendered completely moot. Your using the fixed-preposition that males are less hygienic than females, teach your child to clean themselves, problem solved. Let's not forget smegma is not exclusive between sexes, both males and females produce it around the glans. Bacteria is a huge factor when involving female genitals, one anti-biotic, boom yeast city.
Both cases of circumcision in my view is both dated and unnecessary. Circumcision was created and practiced to de-sensitize the glans to inhibit sexual arousal in the darker ages of humanity, and has enjoyed a second interest at the turn of the century.
You're argument is flat-out wrong.
P.S -Sorry Mike, I had to hijack your reply, but some bull**** must be called. I just wish I could respond to her directly.
It is genital mutilation, but of a male. Circumcision is considered normal in western societies. Particularly for religious reasons.
The more you know, the more you refuse to accept circumcision. If someone had cut up my genitals when I was just a little baby, I would be furious. Many many men are very upset and forever hurt by genital cutting. Please do not try to invalidate Ryan. His words make you uncomfortable but they are the truth.
I would say many circumsized men are brought up to feel that it's normal to be circumsized, but I can imagine some activists want them to feel that it is wrong to circumsize.
The Jewish people circumsize for religious reasons so that may be a stumbling block.
It's not fair to be criticizing David's parents. Remember that this tragedy began in 1965- an era when physicians were to be revered, fathers didn't attend their children's birth, 90+% of babies were circumcised, and hospitals believed that there was no reason for a family to hang around in the waiting room, even during a "routine" procedure. In 1967 my grandmother was politely told to return home after admitting my toddler mother to the hospital for a nearly fatal case of chemical poisoning.
The Reimers were young and poor, living distant from their respective families, and desperate for any information or advice that would help their baby. Local doctors weren't able to offer them anything, so they turned to the only authority they believed might be able to offer their child a chance at a normal life. Hindsight reveals that the "authority" in question was a charlatan operating on nothing more than a theory. But don't even pretend you wouldn't have had a chance of falling for his "solution" under the circumstances.
In Europe only Jewish kids were circumsized which is why Nazis made kids pull their pants down. If it was circumsized, he was sent away.
I read a book about this back in 2004 as part of a collage course but it didn't say anything about David and his brother taking their own lives. It's doubly tragic because it all started with circumcision, if the parents had left the foreskin intact all would have been well. I thought only Americans, Jews and Muslims mutilated the kids with this barbaric procedure but I guess they do it in Canada too.
Canada's culturally similar to the US, so I wouldn't be surprised it was happening there.
The parents were extremely gullible if you ask me and that doctor totally sick in the head. You would have thought that if they can make him a vagina they certainly can make him a penis. I do feel sorry for the whole family. All their lives have been ruined, especially poor David's. Circumcision should be outlawed unless it's for medical reasons such as phimosis (tightening of the foreskin) and a scalpel should be the only medical tool used.
The Jewish people circumsize for religious reasons and they would be fighting a ban.
1. Can't imagine how his parents let Dr. Money make experiments on their son. How they didn't even know what's happened during their conversation? How they didn't even take into consideration the consequenses? It's nonsense. What kind of parents are they? In my opinion, it's a great punishment in their life that they lost both of their children. (so sorry for them)
2. Dr. Money should sit in a prison till his death.
@shafty in particular but everyone else as well... how many men (grown and able bodied) have chosen to be circumcised voluntarily for purely esthetic purposes...honestly??
The first tragedy was that the kid's parents would even have him circumcised...
Circumcision is just one of the many disgusting habits of religious i@#$%^.
"Lets do things that are against human nature so that we can try and control the masses..and to make ourselves feel superior to everyone else"
@Richard Best - Prove it. Where is the evidence for your claim? You can't state such claims without citing the studies done & who did them and when they did them, so we can check how they did them and the FULL conclusions they come to. Back up your claims with solid evidence otherwise you're wasting everyone's time and potentially damaging people's lives in the process.
As well as my own anecdotal account from direct experience of having been circumcised (without consent or sound medical or scientific reason), here are some of my sources you can check for yourself:
1. Sorrells et al. study “Fine-touch pressure thresholds in the adult *****” shows the most sensitive parts of the ***** are removed by circumcision and cuts off 75% average of the sexual receptors and half of the erogenous mucosa. Further sensation loss due to keratinization.
2. Foreskin researcher John Taylor’s “The prepuce: Specialized mucosa of the ***** and its loss to circumcision” and “The Frenular Delta, A New Preputial Structure”
shows the function of the dartos muscle that with erection tenses to create a solid skin tube where action anywhere on it is transferred to the erogenous ridged band that transfers through its loop to act on the frenulum. No action is wasted anywhere on the shaft all is worked to the most erogenous parts the ridged band and frewnulum. Circumcision cuts always cut off all the ridged band and most to all the frenulum. Here action on the shaft is wasted by not acting on the frenulum remnant, so action must be direct on the frenulum.
3. James Prescott’s (online) “Origins of Violence”
Historically shows pleasure to be the opposite of pain. The foreskin provides pleasure without it there is more pain. Where nations that circumcise are the nations to be at war.
4. Kristen Ohara’s “Sex as Nature Intended”
showing that the close sexual bond when circumcised is broken because the male can not easily ride the wave but must keep concentrating on what he feels to increase his awareness of what he feels, of how the circumcised male must pull farther away from the female in order to feel enough, that the woman needs more lubricate and is opt to get sore because the glans corona draws out the lubricate and it takes 10x the pressure for the ***** vaginal introduction.
5. Leonnard Glick’s “Marked in Your Flesh”
Details Judaic history of circumcision on 600 pages where historically circumcision was not originally part of the covenant, Genesis 15 J-text, but added 13 centuries later, P-text, after Abraham’s punitive lifetime the circumcision of infants.
There is a 60% improved chance of NOT contracting HIV from vaginal sex if you have a circumcised penis.
well if you think so,,, glad your safe.. But me, I wouldn't stick my uncut thing in any HIV holes
This is a tragic story brilliantly told. The parents ought to have known better.
I totally agree with you. I don't understand why its such a travesty I have never in MY life heard of such negative feelings towards circumcision in a physical sense ie: taping, discomfort of any sort etc. Now of course if a doctor did do something incorrectly yes I understand 100% but again this is not some mutilation to boys IF done correctly and safely in my opinion. Most of my guy friends or bfs have told me they would much rather be circumcised then not.
@Ryan I've had some discussions about the act of circumcision.
The only real reason i can think of, is that it is practiced only because of tradition. My theory is that because of judaism has it roots in the middle east, the function of removing your foreskin was to avoid infections and diseases from not washing. This because of the fact that washing opportunities of was probably rather limited, due to limited water supply.
My conclusion is that circumcision has no function at all today, especially not in countries like USA and the UK, and is only an act of tradition.
I don't have any sources telling that this is true, it's just my own thoughts.
So sad. Poor guy. I guess now we know nature wins out over nurture when it comes to sexual orientation.
What do you mean Lisa??? So would you not go out with a man with no wullie then??
everyone seems drunk...or slow...
This is one of the worst documentaries I've ever seen...this is a terrible story, beyond sad...I shouldn't be laughing out loud while I watch it...
what a very tragic documentary.
im glad that circumcision's are not common practice in the uk.
ive never been circumcised and nor has anyone i know, and none of us have ever had any problems.
i find it very shocking that America still routinely does this barbaric surgery on baby boys.
if and when i have son(s) there is no way in this world i will let a doctor, or any one else cut any anything off them.
im also convinced that having the foreskin removed must de-sensitize the end of the penis, and so sex wouldnt be as enjoyable.
The twins were diagnosed with phimosis and recommended circumcision. I was almost gonna blame the parents for the whole thing... its just so sad...RIP...
Quite Sad... i still don't understand why scientists are still on the nature vs nurture debate.. Its obviously a bit of both... The twins could have also been predisposed to psychiatric instability from their genetics too... Or even from the way the parents brought them up independently of the psychiatrist... I don't necessarily think that both kids committing suicide was a direct result from the psychiatrist and turning Brendon into a boy although it obviously had a significant effect... Also if the subject was different it may have been a better case... Addition of the right hormones may have also helped... they probably just did not have the technology at the time, or the psychiatrist was so intent on the nurture vs nature debate that he didnt consider changing both.. through the use of the correct hormones.
There are so many variables to this case... In today's day an age would probably be a lot simpler just reconstruct a male penis.. something they may not have been able to do back then..
Also millions of circumcisions are performed correctly at proper medical hospitals, infact this is the first time ive heard it being botched this way, and have benefits in cleanliness, and even reduces the chance of contracting diseases such as aids, herpes etc..
There several cases like his. No year passes without reports of boys dying of circumcision or having a part of their penis destroyed as a direct result of circumcision being published yet the great bulk of such "rare" complications goes unreported, and operation they were to young to consent to.
Circumcision has no benefits whatsoever, an intact penis is generally much cleaner than a circumcised one, and much more importantly more sexually sensitive.
Diesease are prevented by safe sex practices, contraception and education not by mutilation.
Very sad story but definitely worth a watch. Makes me consider identity as a whole within the human population. We each have this identity that we recognize as who we are but what makes this personal view is a different formula for every person. Knowledge of sexual identity, nature vs nurture were being developed at this time and I don't blame the decision to try a theory in such a case at this time. Though from my experience in all aspects of life the honest truth is the right path(except when dealing with the law :P).
Buddy, you have a medical problem or a fetish. You've hijacked this forum to describe your fetish over and over again. This documentary is not about your problem in life. I can't imagine taping your penis up multiple times a day would be less painful than not. If you're really experiencing that much pain you should see a doctor. It is very, very abnormal. I'm still betting you're just dealing with a fetish and that describing it over and over again in forums like this just turns you on.
Oh yea, I was circumcised, at age 13. It was my choice and I regret it not. And even in the days after I healed I never felt the feelings your talking about.
Get medical help if you need it. If it's just a fetish, keep it to yourself.
Whoa. Someone's pissed about missing d@#$ skin...
Miss B, Should a person be happy that they were sexually and irreversibly violated as an infant? Tell me, what is the appropriate reaction to having your genitals cut apart while you are strapped down, gasping and screaming and choking until you pass out? How SHOULD a person feel who has experienced that? How should they feel about living with the consequences of unnecessary penis-reduction surgery?
This idea that it is society that forms gender differences IS STILL TAUGHT AS FACT in many sociology classes all across the country. I had a teacher that told me that I was sexist, borderline homophob, because I argued that it has been well documented that gender differences were due to hormonal differences, and experiments with chimps has shown that injecting male or female hormones into the opposite sex drastically effected their behavior. This idea, this LIE, is being spread by gay organizations with political agendas. What has been done to this poor boy is being done on a much larger scale all over America.
Erm, if anything LGBT organizations point to this documentary as proof of the legitimacy of transgenderism.
@ddd never heard so much garbage ever come out of one persons mouth, whats this got to do with racism and politics, its simple science that proves you are what you are and you cant change it. You need to get out the house more son.
This is leftism to the extreme. The left has a tendency to revere nurture and deride nature. Environment controls all behavior. Nothing consistently demonstrates that more than the lefts attitude toward innate intelligence as it relates to race. This is regarded as an ethical battle against racism despite its folly. This documentary is an example of the same attitude applied to sexism. The sexes really aren't inherently different but only conditioned to be so. You see the result of egalitarianism run amok.
Lets talk about nature and nurture. The ex-gay movement thought it would "nurture" the gay out of somebody. People who don't understand transsexuals now should after seeing this documentary. This boy was a boy who was trapped in a "girl's body" (which wasn't even a girl's body).
The insanity that is genital mutilation.
This is a remake of the 2001 Sex Unknown: The boy raised as a girl FRom NOVA, WGBH I believe. IF you all can you might try finding that one to understand what else has been reported on this story. I don't know if it's available on this website.
For those who are unaware Dr. Money died 3-4 years ago, never apologizing for his research/mistakes he made. I do think that is perhaps the biggest mistake he ever made.
For the rest of the medical community, they have used alot of his research to make thier own opinions on how to raise intersex children. Most used Dr. Money's flawed reporting of this story as evidence that intersex children could be raised happy if surgery is done, which has lead to a great many incorrect assignments, and more trauma from surgery and medical examinations from repeated examinations. And most also ignore the fact that amongst intersex affected people thier gender identities vary vastly, which I also believe is do to the fact that each person is unique and will make up thier own minds too what they are.
Great documentary but they left alot out from the first that was made on David Reimer.
Where is Dr. Money buried? He might fear for his grave.
Dr. Money is the typical "Liberal" brain at work that holds the bias that there's no "right or wrong" and that it's all "relative." Instead of taking the baby to Dr. Money, they should have trusted God, and raised their son they way a boy should be raised, penis or no penis. I wouldn't have been confused even for a half of one second the correct path, had this been my son.
The only time I think there could be an exception to this rule is with the intersex individuals like Caster Semenya where she litterally does have parts of both sexes (a vagina and internal male testes). In that case, you just need to wait until they are old enough to tell you if they are a man or a woman, I think.
LIBERAL??? Dude, you seriously need to learn the difference between a liberal and a Nazi. Dr Money was following in the footstep of Joseph Mengele.
@Charles B. Can you cite the source of your "statistics", please? I'm willing to take on board what you claim if you have the facts to back it up, but what you're saying just sounds like regurgitated opinion to me.
The hygiene argument is a myth. I find it very patronising that someone decided for me that I would be incapable of maintaining hygiene as a human male and decided to enforce unnecessary & life altering surgery on me. Circumcision removes specialised erogenous & protective tissue from the penis. One can't justify removing this from another just because one has a belief that "men aren't hygienic" or some-such projected nonsense.
My son still needs to be circumcised. It's not just for "covenant" religious reasons, but for cleanliness as well. Statistically, wives of circumcised men have less cervical cancer and Jewish women have the least in the whole world (probably for that reason).
My wife helped perform hundreds of circumcisions on adults and older boys who were pleading for it to be done in the tribal areas. It can be very nasty if you don't keep it clean, and then you spread that nastiness to your wife.
But, Biblically, Paul says that circumcision now is a matter of the heart, and not of the flesh, so I suppose it is optional religiously if you are Christian.
typically, Filipino boys get it done about age 13, and they view it as a passage into "manhood".
Men who are circumcised might have longer erections, but men with foreskin are more sensitive and can enjoy sex more... I wouldn't worry about premature ejaculation in a 20 and 30 something. I am a woman and personally... a penis is a penis... it doesn't look that attractive anyway, so I would just prefer my partner was happy and feel sex more, plus... it really should be a personal decision and a baby really doesn't have the capacity to make any opinions of the subject, so they should just get circumcised when they adults. Some women prefer circumcised men... but it's really all about esthetics for women.
if i saw dr money in the street - id kill him
For those of you using Circumcision to spew some moral debate that really has nothing to do with the topic of this film, are you speaking for everyone who has been circumcised and somehow has not had the "traumatic experience" as you all claim?
I am circumcised and would not want to be any other way...neither would my wife, nor ALL my X-girlfriends for that matter. That is what we are really talking about isn't it? Sexuality, sexual identity and sexual satisfaction. I am guessing many of you who want to make an issue about circumcision are probably not circumcised. In any case, this film has LITTLE to do with the issue of circumcision, and everything to do with the parent's terrible decision to change the gender of their child. As if not having a penis itself no longer makes you "male"???? And they find a doctor that assists this dangerous theory. There seemed to be a lot of irrational behavior and decisions AFTER the botched circumcision. The biggest one being cutting of his testicles...that is not the same thing as a harmless circumcision! LOL.....some of you posting here lack in common sense...
Wow, the ending of this is so eerie. I wonder if at the point when this was filmed he had decided that he would go down that path, or was it just a turn of phrase? I guess we will never know.
wonder why the mother sounds sedated ? drugged? slow?
Nature vs. nurture in this case was so fail. How can we be gender neutral at birth? We're born with hormones that control how we think and feel...and they're different for both genders. To a degree nurture has a factor in terms of identity, but there's only so much science can do to change nature.
This is such a tragic story, but something we can all learn from in terms of ethics and the fragile psychology of a persons identity. Hopefully both of the twins are at rest..
It still breaks my heart
Yes Giest you hav raised som VERY good points there. are you German? - just a random question, (because of your name) Sade
How terrifing can science be, only when its wrong in all point of view, one of them....truth.
But more terrifing and stupid is keep doing it again Im talking about
DR and lawyer graduated from ....OMG Yale university!!! Dr Richard green!!!.
Love universities nowadays LOL...just filling job positions and lacking of the most important thing and commitment,and that is the teaching of Truth ,in other word "Science" :).
oops! reading it back - need to clarify - I was referring to Mrs Riemers own GP (General Practioner or Doctor, when I mentioned 'Doctor' in that context, but in the next paragraph, I was referring to Doctor Money
This documentary teaches us many things, but because of the complexity of the subject matter, we need to adhere to the Documentary facts, and not fly off on tangents. The boys' mother was slurring in her speech, but I can only presume that she was, and is totally devasated by the events leading up to the loss os her children. She must have experienced a sense of guilt, and unimaginable sorrow. Added to this, she was participating in a very important interview....if I were her Doctor, I would have agreed to sedation, for any of the above reasons.
The Doctor, was undeniably arrogant, I would even go as far as to suggest he was a narcissist. Fundamentally Doctors have a responsibilty to their patients well being - lets not forget the 'Hippocratic Oath' - first do no harm.
Why do people forget the very reasons they chose to be a Doctor? it seems he got caught up in the whirlwind and notoriety of his theory - he was desperate to prove he was right - when he obviously was wrong. His ego was out of control. and his 'pig-headedness' cost the lives of not one - but FOUR people. Lets learn from this.
I read this book about a year ago. This is such a profound story and I'm so glad it was told. David Reimer is a hero and an amazing testimony of the human spirit and soul to endure. He had to be extremely strong to hold on to his own idea of who he was as a child and especially while being raised as a 'girl' child. Children of that era were not taught to assert themselves and especially little girls were raised to be compliant. He defied systems of oppression that were deeply embedded during this time period. Not only that he defied a the godship and authority of the medical establishment when he stood up to Dr. Money and said "that's enought!" This was a remarkable MAN. Rest in peace David. You are certainly one of my heroes.
@Ezee. You make all good points, but where I have to disagree is where you say debating about circumcision is a waste of time. The root cause of the sadness and tragedy of this family IS circumcision, because if that useless and traumatic procedure had not been performed, the lives of Brian & David would have gone a very different course, as would have many men and women's lives if they hadn't had their genitals interfered with with unnecessary and harmful surgery. What happened after with Dr Money was cruel and barbaric and that man has a lot to answer for, but so does the cruel and barbaric practice of removing healthy, functioning flesh from babies that no one has a right to remove.
As for my "irritation", perhaps you misapprehend me. The "irritation" is more an emotional irritation in response to having a sensitive part of the body constantly exposed, much like how you might feel if you had your eyelids forced open and had objects like fabric dragged across the eyeball. I'm sure all you'd want to do is close your eyelids in that situation and quite possibly also want to punch out the a$$$hole who was subjecting you to this treatment.
Just watched this very, very sad documentary, where two sons are dead and the parents are left without their twin sons. A lot of time is being wasted arguing about the circumcision issue, which is not the real issue at hand.
The real issue is the use of a "scientific" theory by Dr. Money, based on his gender neutrality until the age of two belief and the willing parents, although in desperate ignorance, going along with it!!
This took place from 1965 onwards, not 1365. Surely the good doctor’s theory of gender neutrality until age two could not have been taken seriously and must have raised some eyebrows!! I for one, grow tired of too many scientific theories, which none of us can prove but we follow hook, line and sinker.
Wake up people, don’t get side tracked.
Did Dr. Money actually forget about puberty and the pituitary gland?
What was cruel and barbaric was the treatment of Brian and David, which no doubt led to their premature deaths!!
@Ryan, get that irritation thing checked out!
This brought tears to my eyes. It's so unfair.
This was so heartbreaking. I am not going to get into a discussion or an argument about the circumcision issue because the main focus here(in my opinion) should be on the horrible mental trauma David had to endure all of his young life- for the sake of an experiment. This is so very sad. I know there wasn't much they could do with surgery back then, but I wish the parents had waited, maybe somehow explained to the child a bit later on( when the technology was better) that he would need reconstructive surgery to correct the botched surgery- and let him decide for himself which way he wanted to go with it. I don't know if that would have be the right course of action either, but I would think it would have been far better than to castrate the little kid and try to make him believe he was a girl. I don't think I would EVER do that to my child- under any circumstances.
It very sad to know that David was finally feeling comfortable in his life and then for all this tragedy to befall him, ultimately resulting in his suicide. I wish there was some way in which someone could have helped him.
try female genital mutilation if you think male circumcision is bad.
This is the best documentary i've ever watched. Very moving and emotional. Recommend this to all.
Dr Money Is Such a d*** and the parents should be blamed too !!!
@Techn8ve I just noticed your earlier post and I couldn't agree more. My use of medical tape isn't the most hygienic thing in the world, either but it beats being irritated and in discomfort all day. Back around the mid-80's in Australia, my ex-girlfriend was pressured to have her son genitally mutilated too, but she is a feisty one, (bless her little cotton socks :) and she stood up to them as well. She wasn't about to have her son undergo unnecessary surgery. Blind obedience to "authority" makes it worse for all of us and only leads to tyranny.
@Techn8 There is much to be learnt from the wisdom of the indigenous peoples of Gaia. Though, I'm certainly not discounting the powerful mythology of the Christ story, as it is a strong stream in my life. However I'm not so fond of those who've hijacked the religion here and there for their own nefarious purposes. Regarding the woman's pleasure and satisfaction with men who are cut vs intact, I would refer you to:
Kristen Ohara’s “Sex as Nature Intended”
showing that the close sexual bond when circumcised is broken because the male can not easily ride the wave but must keep concentrating on what he feels to increase his awareness of what he feels, of how the circumcised male must pull farther away from the female in order to feel enough, that the woman needs more lubricate and is opt to get sore because the glans corona draws out the lubricate and it takes 10x the pressure for the penis-vaginal introduction.
By the way most Native Americans NOT converted to catholicism or christianity or some other non-indigenous religion, absolutely will NOT EVER do this superstitiously driven practice. Also, any woman that's been with an uncut male would admit to having better sexual results I think.
I've noticed something reading all these comments. There are some here that have swallowed what the medicos tell them without question and that is really stupid!!!! When my sons were born this issue came up and you wouldn't believe the pressure I got from just the nurse!!
Then the doctor tried up until I informed them all that I am NOT circumcised myself and have never had any trouble (other than some minor irritation) whatsoever, then they gave up trying to convince me to give them a reason to charge me ($300+ as I recall) more money.
The simple truth is that yes, it is barbaric and religiously based also money-driven. The other simple truth is that retention of the foreskin or prepuce forces the male to be of cleaner habits and that is most appreciated by the opposite sex. What do ya' think a woman would rather have? A cleaner penis or one coated in all of the days remnants of urine??
@Kristine... Regarding your first post:
I agree the doco does leave a lot to be desired in terms of depth of investigation. It leaves many obvious and burning questions unanswered.
Thank you, Kristine! Phew ...finally someone who understands. :-)
@shafty. Just because "it's a baby" does not give a parent the right to do something irreversible that will have drastic effect on the man's sex life (and his partner's) all his days. Vaccination may be argued to be medically necessary and in a child's best interest. We now know this is not the case for circumcision. Cutting off healthy skin that is rich in nerve endings and designed to aid in sexually pleasing his future partner, is akin to yanking all your teeth to prevent the possibility of cavities.
Too many glitches toward the end. We miss a lot of pieces. How did Brian go from mentally ill to dead? What happened following the outcry of David's death?
The "From Wikipedia" in my above comment was meant to refer to the source of the definition of "Prepuce".
@princewilliam - From wikipedia:
Look, I just know I experience discomfort from having my glans constantly exposed (clothing or no clothing) and when I pull the shaft skin forward over the glans and tape around (with just enough pressure to stop the glans popping out on is own) I experience relief from that discomfort. How can anyone justify doing this to their baby boys (except in some rare cases of deformity or some such where the procedure may be warranted)
For anyone still ignorant of what the function of the Foreskin (prepuce) is:
Prepuce may refer to:
1) Foreskin, on a male, which surrounds and protects the head of the penis, and acts as the primary erogenous tissue (glans penis)
2) Clitoral hood, on a female, which surrounds and protects the head of the clitoris (glans clitoris)
In summary: Protection and sexual function.
So the question still remains: Why is a perfectly healthy, functioning part of the anatomy of our sons (male genital mutilation) and in our daughters (female genital mutilation) being removed or tampered with? Why is such a practice that is so steeped in superstition and mumbo jumbo with little scientific or medical merit still being practiced in places like America, Israel and the Muslim world?
Routine infant circumcision is a gross violation of our fundamental right to body integrity.
while no doubt interesting, some here seem to have problems with their own penises. i have never , though circumcised, felt any discomfort or had to tape my glans to prevent it from rubbing my shorts. i wear cotton under garments. please everyone just ask your friends and relations i'd wager you will be hard pressed to find anyone who shares this problem, with the exception of, perhaps, they authors of the eerily large list of anti-circumcision books, studies, websites,etc....collected and cited above.
just saying,...while not wholly unsympathetic, that taping thing kinda took me by surprise.
i feel bad for the little boy. :( it is very sad that this stuff happens.
WTF were they thinking to do that to a child?
SOME theories should remain just that - theory!
I am only seven minutes in and i just want to ask what kind of a mother is not at the hospital for any kind of an operation at any age,let alone 7 months old on their child????Another thing that bugged me is that she said that she thought they were going to use a knife not electricity!!!!Would she,should she, not have asked what the procedure entailed???Tell you what,my little girls would would not be operated on unless it was totally unavoidable and i would be sure as hell i would be pacing the corridor outside,waiting nervously!!!!!
Really interesting but the dramatic reconstruction was unnecessary and almost bordered on sensationalist.
"Is it gonna take somebody shooting themselves in the head for people to listen?"
I watched the whole documentary and was just saddened by the outcome to the family and twin brothers. I am against scientist and doctors doing these experiments on a hypothsis they think up. So many things go on behind close doors. Also I don't understand hospitals making these kind of mistakes when you trust your life and your loved ones life to them. What about the oeth of Do no harm, does any doctor/hospital still go by that, it doesn't look that way.
@mike - have you ever explored the medical reason for your circumcision? I think you will find there was none. For the vast majority of circumcised males there was never a clear and present medical reason to cut off a perfectly healthy and functioning part of the body. The surgical risk, trauma and loss of body integrity involved far out-weighs any supposed benefits. The knowledge we have now about the function and purpose of the foreskin does not support this procedure. Routine infant circumcision it is a barbaric cultural practise from an era of ignorance. We know better now.
i dont know what a few of you are talking about, i am a 25 year old male who is circumcised, and i exercise (run bicycle and so on). Never once have i had irrtation or had to pull the skin over whatever (not sure how you do that considering your circumcised). Now i understand that nothing is absolute but it seems to me like you should head to the doctor and have that checked out because that is not normal!
Such a great documentary! Touching.
@some guy. In my experience, the exposed glans from circumcision becomes irritated on clothing, particularly during running. Everyday I must pull my shaft skin forward over the glans and tape around with medical tape* to prevent the glans from continually popping out (annoying like your big toe poking through a hole in your sock x10) and becoming irritated on clothing. Circumcision removes around 10% of the penis skin and 50% of the nerve endings in that area. It creates far more problems than those it claims to solve. And even those are often contradicted by evidence.
*3M - skin tone - wide
@john the skin isn't needed. Have you not notice we have a protective layer already around us called clothing. wow people really are biased.
another reason not to get a circumcision
hmm maybe they should have never told him. He could have grown up to be a butch lesbian or at least a butch lesbian shemale.
@SpiritualButNotReligious. you say: "...circumcision should not be outlawed". Circumcision should not be outlawed just like having your eyelid surgically removed should not be outlawed IF there is a SERIOUS medical reason for it and all other options have been explored and exhausted. What we are objecting to is routine infant circumcision. Cutting off the foreskin is a traumatic experience and changes a human life forever. This procedure should be "taken deep into the vaults, never to be used except at the utter most end of need". As for "making my son look like I do" I have never understood that argument. I have never heard of any father and son standing around comparing dicks and even if they did, that is no reason to inflict the evil that was done to you onto your son. Its like a father with an amputated leg cutting off his son's leg to "look like him". "Betcha glad I cut off your leg, son, cause now you look like me. Isn't that great?". Ridiculous.
I have one son who is circumcised and one who is not. I live in the USA and I know that it is purely cosmetic and optional. My first wife was against it and my current wife isn't. Since I have been circumcised, I would prefer my son to look as I do, but it is not a big deal to me. I think it is a tragedy what happened in the film but, circumcision should not be outlawed.
I could not agree more, it is completly unnessesary.
It is not common practice here in the U.K. but I know a lot of American baby boy's have it done before they leave the maternity hospital, as for it being cleaner,stoping HIV & AIDS that is pure nonsence.
Circumcision is barbaric and unnecessary. People who spout off about the supposed HIV/AIDS prevention forget that those "studies" are all done by doctors who are circumcised themselves and are pushing an aggressive agenda. Did anyone stop to think about the fact that Europeans, Japanese, Chinese, and Latin Americans are all UNcircumcised and perfectly healthy?
@Mark - Right on, Mark. Well said. Totally with you
@Shafty - Yes, however you should be able to expect adults to make rational decisions, like... leaving perfectly healthy body parts to continue to perform their function and NOT cutting into baby's flesh with totally unnecessary and life altering surgery.
nankay....way to totaly overlook the point so that you can argue semantics. thinking a baby should be allowed to make its own decisions is nuts. i mean.....its a BABY. wait for its permission to give it vaccination shots? maybe the child will grow up to be hardcore religious and refuse all medicine. so i guess babys shouldnt be givin any medical treatment? later in life they might regret it. people amaze me at the ideas they support. ITS A BABY IT CANT MAKE RATIONAL DECISIONS
I thought the same thing about the mother, but I also wondered if she was on valium or something due to her slurred interviews. But then I thought, if I was the mother of those two children, both of whom killed themselves, over a tragic situation, I'd probably want to "hide" the pain with booze or pills. Damn.
I agree with rip, doctor money should hang by his balls. He is a prime example of a wannabe scientist out for fame and attention, of which he will appropriate by any means regardless of human cost. Its sickening to think that all this trauma affecting so many lives was caused by one outdated, drastically immoral and disgusting surgical procedure. it was as much the parents fault for getting the kids circumcised in the first place, what terrible parenting, followed by leaving their young children in the hands of an ambitious psychologist. The parents obviously are lacking in any base intelligence or understanding of anything human as to is this doctor money and his heartless student. Yet another clear example of how religious principles lack common sense. As an evolved species I find it offensive that so many of us are still so insanely ignorant of our moral obligations. End religion, totalitarianism and the western monopoly on the worlds riches and recources. End the fat american/british couch potato existence and the domination of the worlds greediest governments. End climate change. We have no chance of affecting any of these big issues as long as there are people in the world who think circumcision is 'ok' after watching this doc. Some people make me sick
i wonder if women are more neutral to gender deviance. its deemed more societally acceptant anyway. geez, what a slippery thing.. 'masculinity' or 'feminiity'. i wonder if its a genetic alteration or a societal construct. what is money's approach to 'resistance', 'feminine existence'? extreme submissivemess? what a sicko. and WHERE ARE THE PARENTS!!??
i believe that circumsision is very stupid and used in the beginning as an excuse by homosexual and pederastic
priests in order to suck the young mens pinuses as i have seen jewish rabis doing to young jewish males , god,or allah or jehovah or whatever his name is in any religion would not have been so stupid as to create something on a human being if it was not needed and you get some stupid religious homosexual fanatics and pedophiliacs to do their hedious stuff on poor and defenceless youth iether it is male or female ,its a good thing that they do not cut off the eyelids on humans so they do not get eye diseases in the future of thie life.
a name you can change when you're 18. How does one undo a circumscision?
I'm pretty sure this is the saddest story I've ever heard in my entire life! I'm still sitting here after watching this, thinking there is no way this was a true story! Super sick how the parents went along with what sicko Dr. Money told for them to do. Seriously, those poor guys. Truly the saddest story I could ever imagine.
ryan...your own personal problem doesnt equate to everybody else's issue. as for your "true educaton on circumcisim"...you kinda lose me with the claim "nations that circumcise are the nations to be at war." i mean...c'mon! thats just silly. as far as parents who you think are making an immoral decision when choosing to circumsize their child...it is as much the parents right to choose to circumsize or not as it is their right to choose the childs name. or should they wait for the kid to make that choice too?
To Ryan and the others who are carrying on about the "brutality" of circumcision. Unlike when I was an infant 36 years ago, doctors now use local anesthetics when circumcising boys, for one and for two, they have a nifty device that slips over the glans with a scalpel that runs in a track around the device, ensuring an even circumcision that doesn't distroy the anatomy. For those going on about a medical reason for circumcision...ok, I'll give you one: HIV/AIDS. Study after study consistantly shows that boys who are uncircumcised have a 60% HIGHER risk of contracting not only HIV but other STD's and infections that affect the glans. Ryan's rant seems more the rant of someone who wishes he had a foreskin for sexual purposes and nothing else.
Sad'y the parents didn't find themselves to be with their children while they were intially attended medically and subsequently...
Every post-modernist asswipe who thinks gender is just a social construct should be forced to watch this.
In secret teachings of jesus, in the Gospel of thomas says this: His disciples said to him, "Is circumcision useful or not? He said to them, "If it were useful, a father would produce children already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true spiritual circumcision is useful in every respect."
Whoah brutal... I loved the american beauty soundtrack cut outs and other similarities in it, it was as dystopian as american beauty for sure. They could have more information about the schizophrenic brother and how he killed himself and when? and what happened? why?
Is the mother drunk in her interviews? I can't stand her constant slurring, lazy speech.
think for yourself about the very deep universal issues not jus the surface topics whihc the films expose .
for me there is not such thing as CO INKY DINK .... after wathcing hte bible told me so and then to end up almost haivng to have this video as back ground sound ....
bernie MADE off with millions ..... AND MONEY well the advisor to PHAROH did it for the $$$ ... science or priest it was and still is all about the $$$$
while the INSTINCTUALISM of the organism still yells out fromt he library of the DNA , something is F'ed up
It seems to me after what has happened to these children, they have somehow forgotten to help Brian. e obviously was not accepting to what Brenda really was, to the lost brother, maybe even jealous. I think after the bas decision to have a doctor guiding their children, it was Brian that was a bit neglected. Maybe, just maybe, if they gave him treatement and he didn't kill himself, the life of David would have been saved too. It is such a sad storry, that I couldn't not to cry at the end :(!
when he says "the decision dr money made at the time was the correct one" i literly wanted to jump through the TV and strangle him. and im not a violent person lol but how can anyone be so dense? this poor poor child. after what happened how can a person say it was thew right decision? with any rationalization they want.....it was a HORRIBLE mistake, not the right choice. standing up for your old teacher is one thing, but standing up for a cruel monster is a lil different.
Very Sad ending to say the least. The story is just heart breaking. For all you lames who leave rude posts. Ill pray for you.
The exploitation of twin infants to prove a scientific theory is abhorrent. That Dr. Money would refuse to comment on this tragedy only magnifies his guilt. His experiment at the cost of 2 young men's lives, was no better than those experiments conducted by Dr. Mengele during the 2nd world war. I would like to be able to say "May God have mercy on his soul" but it would be insincere.
Wow, what an insanely chilling ending...
@shafty. The very practice of routine infant circumcision itself is a botch job. There is no need for it. If a male wants to cut off a body part when he is older, then that is his decision and his decision alone, when he is capable to make it.
@Emma. you talk of morals; surely you can see that to force unnecessary surgery on a baby of any kind is immoral, unjustifiable and unethical.
True education on circumcision includes:
1. Sorrells et al. study "Fine-touch pressure thresholds in the adult penis" shows the most sensitive parts of the penis are removed by circumcision and cuts off 75% average of the sexual receptors and half of the erogenous mucosa. Further sensation loss due to keratinization.
2. Foreskin researcher John Taylor's "The prepuce: Specialized mucosa of the penis and its loss to circumcision" and "The Frenular Delta, A New Preputial Structure"
shows the function of the dartos muscle that with erection tenses to create a solid skin tube where action anywhere on it is transferred to the erogenous ridged band that transfers through its loop to act on the frenulum. No action is wasted anywhere on the shaft all is worked to the most erogenous parts the ridged band and frewnulum. Circumcision cuts always cut off all the ridged band and most to all the frenulum. Here action on the shaft is wasted by not acting on the frenulum remnant, so action must be direct on the frenulum.
3. James Prescott's (online) "Origins of Violence"
Historically shows pleasure to be the opposite of pain. The foreskin provides pleasure without it there is more pain. Where nations that circumcise are the nations to be at war.
4. Kristen Ohara's "Sex as Nature Intended"
showing that the close sexual bond when circumcised is broken because the male can not easily ride the wave but must keep concentrating on what he feels to increase his awareness of what he feels, of how the circumcised male must pull farther away from the female in order to feel enough, that the woman needs more lubricate and is opt to get sore because the glans corona draws out the lubricate and it takes 10x the pressure for the penis vaginal introduction.
5. Leonnard Glick's "Marked in Your Flesh"
Details Judaic history of circumcision on 600 pages where historically circumcision was not originally part of the covenant, Genesis 15 J-text, but added 13 centuries later, P-text, after Abraham's punitive lifetime the circumcision of infants.
I, for one, agree with circumcision, but I entirely understand those who are against it. As many have said, it is based on your morals and beliefs. I don't have any strong religious belief, but my fiance is circumcised, and it's something we have talked in depth about. He wouldn't have it any other way, and I accept it either way.
did you people get your circumcisions in dark back alleyways or something? if you gotta tape yourself every day, maybe. cause thats not normal. just cause you had a botched job personaly doesnt mean the whole practice is horrible. id be pissed if my parents didnt have me circumcized and so would my gf.
"This is the story of a boy who had his penis burnt off."
Probably the strangest opening line I've ever heard to a documentary.
@Linda. I agree with you that there should absolutely be a clear and present medical condition for circumcision to even be on the table, but should always be the option of last resort. In the case of formosis (too tight foreskin), there are methods and devices that can be used to stretch the foreskin that should be considered before even thinking of reaching for the scalpel.
I wached this with great sadness, What those poor children must have suffered mentaly is anyone's guess.
I am nurse and find circumcision barbaric unless there is a medical reason such as the foreskin being to tight and causing pain. In the case of transexual's I have attended some postmortum's and they where allway's the sex they said they where, ie when you weigh a male to female the brain weigh's the same as a female who was born female and visaversa for female to male. Did the rightly called Doctor Money never think about the male hormone's that Bruce would have in his body as these are produced via the pituruty gland and the testis. I hope the parent's sue this man who tried to play some god like creature for all he has got due, to his own ego trip they lost both thier son's my thought's are with them.
Love and Peace,
Hang Dr. Money by his balls.
I highly recommend watching this documentary, as it touches on so many different scientific, as well as moral, issues. Circumcision accident aside, what they did to this boy after, is even more horrifying. What's more sad is that there are still many people in this world today who believe that Gender Identity is the direct effect of the child's upbringing.
People have to realize that such things as Gender Identity, as well as one's Sexual Orientation, is something that people do not choose; we are born pre-disposed to one thing or another. A prime example of this can be seen in many their aspects of our lives: things we like to do, colors we're most attracted to, style of music we listen to, certain foods we crave...if those things we cannot choose, then who is to say that our identity or sexual orientation IS?
As far as the doctor's go, they need to stop playing human lives for the sake of their scientific experiences, ESPECIALLY hen it comes to children's development! In this particular situation, I do not know if I can solely blame the doctor...although the parents must have been persuaded into this experiment. As far as the circumcision goes, I can only give my opinion on the subject.
I think that it is an unnecessary procedure that was started centuries ago for religious purposes and then somehow made it's way into the mainstream society for medical purposes. And again, the parts we are born with should be left alone, unless we-as individuals, decide later on that we want to alter our body in one way or another. I am against circumcision in CHILDREN, as they have no say in it. As far as adults go, if it is something they choose to do for either religious purposes or medical, it is their choice and I'm supportive of that.
To conclude my thoughts, my deepest condolences go out to the twins families, as having to bury one child is bad enough, but both is unimaginable. Thank you for this eye-opening documentary!
It really is a sick and primitive thing to be inflicting on little babies
I think his life would have also been very hard if he grew up as a boy with no penis
but i think it would have been better than this.
Brendan's story is a sad and extreme example of the tragedy that continues to be performed on baby boys in America, Israel and the muslim world to this day, and that is the genital mutilation euphemistically called circumcision. What this documentary does not even touch on is: why was the circumcision even performed in the first place?
Why not leave intact a perfectly healthy body part performing its role as nature intended? The foreskin has multiple functions, one of which is as protective covering of a sensitive organ much like the eye-lid over the eye. I had my foreskin cut off too at 14 days of age for no medical issue whatsoever. There is no justification for this sick practice.
Due to irritation and discomfort of an exposed glans on clothing, I have to pull the shaft skin forward over the glans and tape my penis with medical tape every day, just the feel comfortable and normal. Stop cutting into boys penis'. Its sick, cruel and TOTALLY unnecessary. It causes mental illness and lifelong discomfort. We are Human Beings who have an intrinsic, inalienable right to body integrity. For the love of humanity, stop routine infant circumcision NOW!
Now we know better.
um... i didn't even attempt to watch this but... um.... gross. hahaha