The End of God?: A Horizon Guide to Science and Religion
As the Pope ends his visit to Britain, historian Dr Thomas Dixon delves into the BBC's archive to explore the troubled relationship between religion and science. From the creationists of America to the physicists of the Large Hadron Collider, he traces the expansion of scientific knowledge and asks whether there is still room for God in the modern world.
The relationship between science and religion has been long and troubled: from the condemnation of Galileo by the Catholic Church in 17th century Italy, through the clashes between creationism and evolution in 20th century America, right up to recent claims that the universe does not need God.
Delving through the rich archive of programmes from Horizon and BBC Science, Thomas Dixon looks at what lies behind this difficult relationship. Using original footage from 1925, he tells the story of John Scopes, a Tennessee teacher who was tried for teaching evolution.
He sees the connections between religion and American politics in the story of a more recent court case -the trial of Intelligent Design. He looks at what happens when new scientific discoveries start to explain events that were once seen as the workings of God, and explains how some of our most famous scientists have seen God in the grandest laws of the universe. Finally, he finds intriguing evidence from brain science which hints that belief in God is here to stay.
On day one...Man created God!!!
No longer available
By the way, there is plenty of lawful in chaos.
And following my illustrious commenting, I MUST say- look up 'Pantheism and Panentheism... you may qualify (;
Who am I kidding, there is no apparent end to such...
AlfBeta - you are absolutely right - This docco wasn't earthshaking by any means, it's just the concept/questions that arise from it which take serious note. Certainly nothing new lol. Interesting though, yeah? I personally didn't watch it all the way through untill making about 200 posts... Oh, and kudos on picking up on english as a second language from recent poster/s (even though I disagree with content).
P.S. Heloooo Saturnine...
This outstanding documentary presents a sweeping view of the current level of man's understanding of his place in the universe. it ultimately suggests that there may exist an "infinity of infinities" and that it is this that we may think of as 'God.'
THere is a debate, but right now there is not true right, except for those things sciency has proved .
There is no debate. Religion/God is all Bs
This forum has such an intelligent level of argument that i'm driven to use some of my precious restricted gigabytage to actually watch the film. I do wonder, it must be unusual.
That'll getcha thinkin!! Bravo!!!
really good doc
scared little children.
In this video in my opinion the scientist explanation about God (Jesus) or relgion are not given the right explanation. Additionally they can’t give as define answer about everything. Themselves they don't know when the world created and when will be end. We like it or not God (Jesus) is the first creator who creates the world and universe. In this video the person mansion about three question 1. Why things are exist? My answer is because God (Jesus) said it and created it with given natural order. Therefore no human can be able to create, order and understand the creation of the world and universe. That is for God (Jesus) only for him and his might knowledge show as whom he is a powerful Creator and no one can be able reach and understand. 2. Why do we here? Because God (Jesus) is might he want as to believe him and we all human need to warship him and obey his word and make our future to be worthy in this earth as well as in heaven. Then God (Jesus) will give as internal life with him in heaven not in hell. 3. What is all for? It is a War and battle also it is all about a chose believe or not believe and who will win the battle the power of God (Jesus) or the devil power. It is not right to push people not to believe and teaching them God (Jesus) is not exist because by doing that we make them to go to hell for eternity. If we give them a chance to choose themselves it is for their own advantage and freedoms. If we Human choose to make our life believe and commit with God (Jesus) while we are in this hearth we can be able live peaceful life, loving life not being selfish, compassionate life, not to harm anyone but love, and protect ourselves from evil work that jeopardise our internal life. The devil never ever have a chance to inter and inherit heaven. So that devil want as not to believe, because he cannot be a belver and inter in heaven so that he don't want as to inter as wall. So all human we need to be clever and understand the devil secret. One day individually will be dead after we are dead we cannot have choice to believe or not to believe. The only chance and place we have in this hearth to believe and make the most of it. This is our chance to be wise and make the right choice for ourselves to be on the safe side. About this world, we are not alone the devil are a lire, predator, murderer and hidden himself from all human for the time being. Soon, when Jesus cames for future everything will be clear. People please don’t be unbeliever be a believer and win the battle it is for all human good.
Sorry about the repeat in the comments. I apparently was too impatient when verifying my email.
Judging from the video online, this is simply a repeat of various historically inaccurate pieces of information on various historical topics. Its minimal explanation of the "Galileo incident" is misleading and inaccurate. The same is true of how they depict the debate of Darwin's Theory of Evolution. All in all this is not worth much because it comes from a biased viewpoint in favor of science over religion rather than truly examining how science and religion have worked together over the centuries. Yes, that is what I said: they have worked together over the centuries. The only clash is when someone from the extremes of either side tries to make that side the final word in the matter.
Judging from the video online, this is simply a repeat of various historically inaccurate information on various topics. Its explanation of the "Galileo incident" is misleading and inaccurate. The same is true of how they depict the debate of Darwin's Theory of Evolution. All in all this is not worth much because it comes from an extremely biased viewpoint in favor of science over religion rather than truly examining how science and religion have worked together over the centuries.
And what are you going to do with your god? Charles, be his right hand man? are you going to help him and moniter all the trillions of request/demands, from the religee's? or formulate blueprints to make infinite new worlds?
Or just continue to worship and grovel at the feet of your jealous god? Hmmm?
i think this guy daniel bullberdichevsky should watch last word of this documentary, it was just made for people like him.
I think this whole bull s*** atheist movement is just based on mans desire to bulge out their ego so that they can feel that they are God. You say o evidence evidence evidence, look at yourself in the mirror, there is the evidence! life without God is boring, empty, and pointless in my opinion. I believe the entire purpose of our existence is to learn to love our fellow man, to appreciate Gods creation, and to know yourself. To try to stamp out God out of science, or in general, IS THE MOST SELFISH THING EVER IMAGINABLE, AND BY THE WAY YES, SCIENCE AND GOD GO HAND IN HAND, AND CONSCIOUSNESS IS INDEED INFINITE.
I believe God is the reason for what we experience. Whether that reason is absolutely nothing, a magical connection between all living and nonliving things, a coincidence, a creator in another dimension (or quite possibly up in the sky) that determined everything from the beginning, a gigantic reflection of something whole, a seemingly endless universe which contains everything etc etc. Any reason is a legitimate one for what we are going through right now. I think most any person who may call themselves spiritual or religious, at the core, is REFERRING to this reason that they can't describe or understand. Christianity is plagued with all kinds of nasty things that have happened throughout history, so I think most of present man has a stigma against it (which may be rightly so). Everyone wants to know if there is something going on or nothing going on, and either way there is an answer. People have been trying to figure this out since they've been able to think for themselves, so I think it is also a legitimate question.
"Science" uses fact and logic. "Religion" uses superstition, imagination, and a book of which no one can prove it's age or author. To believe the Universe is only 6000+ years in existence, is complete, blind, stupidity and ignorance. Multiplied by Ego, narcissism, and utter-foolishness.
I think there is absolutely no point in proving that placebos work to reduce pain etc, is there any scientific gain in taking away peoples beliefs if what they are doing is not doing anyone else any harm, totally sadistic work.
This is how i see the world:
Spirituality (Notion of sacred)
I'll try to describe it somehow i understand it using my views:
Spirituality is a belief of something sacred, something that has no scientific value but leads to spirituality.. A simple example is for example: The toy given to you by your your long deceased mother that you have kept your life. To you, this is sacred, but it's not scientific (But it is on a personal level)It has notion else but sentimental value. This kind of thinking may lead to religion (again on a personal level). I'm not talking about the history of the existence of religion..
Religion: regroupment of people sharing a same outline thought of sacred/spirituality. But to make it more unified and strong, Dictates all ideas into a database (book/bible/koran/w.e) so to institutionalize the thought. And the book becomes a sort of: Answer to everything. The notion of ''GOD'' is for them what the definition of spirituality. Spirituality became an invisible old beardy man in the sky (for christians).
Science: The everyday reality. The search for answers. The physical world we live in. Religion has no reason to be in this realm. Facts, how the world works.
Philosophy (Personal level): I'm Not talking here about the great thinkers or any epoch. Can combine Science and Spirituality in guiding priorities in our own life. Guides our life on a personal level, setting our values and convictions, how we react to problems etc... For example: to Epicurius, having friends was sacred for him. To Socrates, critical thinking and not being a sheeple was the most enlightening thing there is...
Must not use Spirituality or Religion to explain the physical world. Its like arguing that an orange can come out of an apple tree because you happen to find an orange in a field of apple trees.. Spirituality and Religion are guidelines for moral standing.. Religion is an Institutionalized -For Sheeple (the masses)- and accesible way to gain spirituality. However it is not wrong nor heretic(hehe) for anyone to build their own beliefs through the dictates of any said religion.
In this case i simply say: Science explains the mathematical laws of the universe. The information of the universe, the cause to effect of reality. Science has can not try to explain spirituality. It can not try to explain, nor Guide us to follow an objective in life, nor can it explain why i keep any object anyone consider to be sacred, or my view on life. It can however explain which neurones and synapse connection where used (or which part of the brain is the god spot) to make these ideas possible hehehe.
But same goes with spirituality / Religion: They can Not interfere in trying to explain how the world works. Its not their job. Their Job is to guide us in doing what we believe in. (Again, on a personal level)
I'm an atheist, but i believe in the notion of sacred. I'm definitely not Christian and i do not follow any other religion there is. I don't believe in ''GOD'' or w/e.
There hope some of ya might understand :P
I build the Earth!
@jolulipa, @Jo, @Mad, (even @Chyrch), @everyone
You guys are absolute genius. : )))
Good cry. About bad stuff.
Was all wound up wiv the Integral thought jigga and then fiddling with the singularity first thought being in a void, in your mind, just as in pre-space. One and same. The Iroquois creation yarn was EXACTLY what I was thinking/feeling. There is much alike left still in Australias first as well. Christianity is devouring its remnants as I write this.
The world just got real loneley for a moment there. I wish people were more like that still.
Whatever, totally over this yarn. I've done my damage. I'm gonna head over to What is Reality.
My posts would possibly hold more water there...
(sorry to be so light on things but, you know i'm done)
I swear to god that you are some kind on hybrid between a Jedi and a Christian. Or at least live in Norway.
Otherwise, you have some fu**D up mind. I would really hate Christians turning in what you want. Where is the fun if I cannot enjoy a discussion with a fundamentalist bible wielding protestant?
geeeezz, man! don't be so cruel. :>)
Oops, forgot to clear up one thing. @Madskillz ... when or 'how' did I "make you cry"... good cry...or bad cry...? :) Ciao
another well done documentary by the BBC. I'm begining to think I need to go to documentary's anonymous. Hi my name is "toddy" and I'm addicted to documentary's.haha
So, jest' back from watching and commenting on WHAT IS REALITY. It was great ... now will have to wait to see if anyone wants to get 'into it'... @ Madskillz & @ Saturnine; looks like conversation is concluding, Just like to say it was good. Integrity over ignorance is brilliant ... (good luck with the book :) @ Chrych # 744. Your very Welcome... @ Saturnine # 762... (Let's see if I can remember some: "Let me not to the marriage of true minds, admit impediments - Love is not Love, if it alters when it alteration finds - or bends with the remover to remove; it is an ever fixed mark, that looks on tempests and is not shaken..."etc -Shakespeare (the rest is good too, just can't get the lines right, so enjoy). I am wrapped up here, see ya'll
Yes, it does. A lot.
But yet... Religion creates alot of confusion and harm, no?
(And if anyone thinks that I think that Madskillz is a convert, that one is just st**d. I don't want Madskillz to be one. Realize that.)
It doesn't have to be Christianity, I'm really not trying to sell it to you, man. I'm just saying. Maybe it's sufficient to say that the world needs people to know enough so that they can battle the ones who are stifling humanity. Both within and without churches and creeds.
I'm just thanking God that there's at least some proper sense in Christianity, so that the people who become Christians will have a way to get it right. That's all.
Thank God you get the right idea. And I really mean it. You do. You prove to me that there's a point to all this rambling.
Besides local law, what constitutes an illegal drug? Whatever. Dont care.
Soooo, beyond your own personal needs, what good is Christianity?
If a person is taught integrity, what use is religion in the conversion sense? What is a person to gain by becoming one of the flock? What is the point?
I can think of several places to hang out with like minded people. None of them are in a Church.
Social workers, drop in centres, youth programs - These all help people (Some INSIST on being religious... FKNGRRRR)
Psychologists, Mental health workers, Spiritual centres - These all provide internal well being assistance.
Parks, rivers, forrests etc. - These are all good for the human soul.
And Christianity IS mystical theology. Just coz it's a 'top dog' and says otherwise, doesnt change the fact that it is.
I just dont get it.
What for need?
One of the first interpretative principles in reading the Bible is that it every detail must be measured with the whole book in mind. My mindset is merely correct. Too bad you have a problem with it. You parade logic in front of me as if you know something about it. It's been a bit annoying. You've defended the atheist position well. You could do even better by being a little less pretentious.
Maybe then there will be a proper joint venture.
Okay I'm done. My interest has been waning for a while now, post 754 made me lose it all.
Sorry Saturnine, but this has become entirely pointless. Do you know why I keep bringing up Logic? It's Laws are what help us discern a valid argument from an invalid one. It's important, and I suggest to anyone who wishes to argue for their beliefs should first familiarize themselves with it. It's the spinal cord of debate.
Just one more thing though,
"No-one can use the Bible by cherry-picking stuff, if he is to make a serious point with it. Cherry-picking is an error, everyone in his right mind knows this. You in fact fall to it, when you choose to speak only about the passages that treat explicitly on the issue of slavery"
is hugely contradictory and hypocritical, and is a great example of your mindset in regards to this subject.
I've enjoyed our discussion. I wouldn't have been so vocal in this (soon to be erased) thread if I hadn't. But right now we're at a point where it feels like talking to just another apologist who feels they have some insight to religion no one else has.
I'm sure I'll see you on other boards. Until then, keep well. I'll be hoping for a serious joint venture between psychologists and philosophers to help cure people of their religious delusions.
Many apologies to Vlatko for taking these comments so far off track, and thanks to him as well for humoring us long enough to continue the discussion.
(I of course meant #785 to refer to #783. I'm against all misuse of drugs and all illegal drugs but this is not the place to discuss that.)
In the sense, that I think you mean what you say, I think I accept almost every bit of it.
The Bible suffers greatly from all the wrong stuff that has been justified with it. In such times when people are completely unable to make good and calm religious sense of it, I think it would not be such a bad idea to prohibit the religious use of the Bible altogether. I seriously think that God could approve of this.
But you know, religions go deep to the good things too. I think there's a lot of proper use for it. Mystical theology is not always bad reading either.
I am not against weed. I am not even against paying a bit for it, as the grower puts themselves at the true risk in prosecution (when local law isnt too BARBARIC)
I am however, against it being sold to vulnerable types, at extornionalist rates, who should otherwise be getting their sh*t together rather that sitting on thier arse not doing anything with themselves. Like buying food, for one.
I rarely smoke it, as it slows me down in the work I do.
And it most certainly is not good for kids.
Teenagers are gonna be teenagers though.
Look. I know Christianity is a bit more special than that to you and your circle of friends whatnot. This is fine. As far as I can tell I dont think that you are a bad person.
But there is a reality you must acknoweledge;
Integrity is all one needs to be a good person.
Christianity is most often used as a 'loop hole' for absolute foul character.
The bible is just philosophy, with some historical links. There are any number of better books on how to be a better person.
I see exactly what you mean. That's where we seem to be at this time and this place. People who understand religious language and get the right ideas are being silent because they don't want to show that they belong to "that crowd". In a better world, the situation will be different. A lot of mistakenness will have to be shown to be mistakenness.
Christianity is just a label. A label that trys to say to everyone else 'I am a good person. You can trust me'.
And quite often that is BS.
Possibly the NASTIEST people I have EVER met were 'whole hearted Christians'. Lots of them.
They were racist, sexist, depraved or just simply obnoxious (usually all of the above).
It's a label. It means nothing. We dont need it. People know this now, which is usually why they declare atheism.
It's a correctly moral stance.
Yes, that is a serious philosophical point, I just mangled the words in that one. To me it's mostly about straightening out the kirkliche neo-cons, really. And you, know I'm being serious about all this. I've studied the lot. Much of what they are doing is just patting the fundamentalist elements in the back.
I think it is very true, that if you insist on a thought that is based on ignorance, you will end up with a notion that is at heart already broken. It only takes a little while to fish out the notion from the person who has it, and then another little while to show that it is in fact based on ignorance. After this, it disappears at once if the person stops insisting on it.
And two or three of the 'preachers' thought they'd do a further service and bring a pound or so of weed out bush with them when conducting services.
To flog off at around X5 the usual ammount as to the closest built up area (which in itself was expensive).
Ho. Ho. Ho.
I don't care on 'THEY ARENT REAL CHRISTIANS!'
They certainly thought they were.
@Saturnine #775 also
re: pulling off on strange stuff;
I have seen it any amount of times. Many of the 'vulnerable' mob I grew up around LOVED it.
Many thought it was better than actual medical assistance (physical/mental).
- Which they somewhat negated.
re: Circle dances;
So is singstar.
(Personal Disclaimer; not my cup o' tea)
Ignorance that has been insisted on is just an illusion, that really disappears in a blink of an eye.
Need I say more?
Yeah, you do.
You'd be amazed when you saw all the strange s*** they're trying to pull off.
However, among the young bunch, those circle-dances are just absolutely brilliant in a lot of ways.