Exit Afghanistan

Exit Afghanistan

2010, Military and War  -   102 Comments
7.14
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Ratings: 7.14/10 from 36 users.

Exit AfghanistanA VPRO, Tegenlicht documentary by Mariusz Pilis and Olaf Oudheusden in which warlords and diplomats question what the West actually wants in Afghanistan. How justified and necessary is the current foreign military presence in Afghanistan?

The Western allied forces have been fighting in Afghanistan for more than eight years, and although they have established a legal government in Kabul, security, peace and development for the Afghan people are still far out of reach.

Backlight examines the justification and necessity of a foreign military presence in Afghanistan and addresses the most important question; What does the West want to accomplish in this country with its tormented history?

Exit Afghanistan features stories of ordinary Afghans, interviews with Taliban leaders and warlords and intertwines these with comments from Richard Holbrooke, Lakhdar Brahimi and Ahmed Rashid. Renowned Middle East correspondent Robert Fisk provides a historical perspective.

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Fade
Fade
8 months ago

Propaganda!

Roy Borrill
Roy Borrill
3 years ago

There is no solution to the problem with corruption,drugs and terrorism in Afghanistan. Not one that a foreign country can fix. History teaches us that fact. Other countries have been trying to impose their own ideas of what Afghanistan should look like for over 100 years and none have been successfull. This is only something that the Afghan people can solve. And other nations need to let them get on with it. It might be painful to watch but it's ultimately the only solution. Eventually, given time, a functioning Government will evolve. Once that happens, the rest of the world needs to accept the outcome, whether it's good or bad. That, I'm afraid is the only answer to the problem of Afghanistan. Say what you like about the Taliban Government, that once ruled that country, but at least it was peaceful and it virtually eradicated opium production. Yes, it was ruthless and by Western standards, totally unacceptable in its beliefs and practices, but can anybody honestly claim that the people and the nation is any better today for the meddling of other nations? If left alone Afghanistan might have had a chance of progressing to something less unacceptable to the West. However, that will never happen until we leave them alone to sort out their own problems. If they ask for help to transform the nation to a functioning democracy then fair enough. But military intervention is something that should be totally unacceptable under any circumstances.

dels
dels
10 years ago

it says in the description ''although they have established a legal government in Kabul '' why whud i want to watch the whole movie if I can find mistakes in the description. they gorvernment is as corrupt as can be and maybe even worser than the taliban themself. Druglord mr Karzai is in power, what an achievevent. a there is an illegal goverment, fatalities of police, cevilians have risen, its its more dangerous than ever, and dont even spealk about security. the amricans and the british have made everything worser.

Zubair Ahmed
Zubair Ahmed
11 years ago

Exit, yeah, I have seen the signs in Malls and Auditoriums , get the hell out of there as soon as possible , Can't see , they have nothing to lose , too poor and too ignorant to have any role in 9/11, the biggest bullshit, almost proved as false flag ,No one has ever conquered this Country ,Russian were more savage , still they had to pack up, if US/NATO believe , they have superior ''fire power'' , they are stupid , they are simply aliens to rest of the world and should be left alone .

01bad2dbone
01bad2dbone
12 years ago

ok this is for the people who watches the tv and the news too much or they dont know anything about war and likes to leave a stupid comment. First of all Afghanistan is not terrisost counrty or the taliban. The 9/11 happened maybe osma binladen did ithe is from SAUDI ARAB he went to afghanistan to seek shelter with his ARAB soliders. Afghanistan had war as far is Alexander and the mongol and english and so on they all got defedt in that land by its people they just wanna protect their homeland they're not there to take over the world or nothing its just that other people when they take over their land they defend their country in another word they dont take s*** from no one. In modern war since russia not even one Afghan commette sucide untill now its all the arabs that they do sucide bombings. Even now if USA and rest of the world satys there with their solders and the best weapons the Afghan people wont give up. and excuse my speling and as long as u get my point

Corvus
Corvus
12 years ago

whoops:
there are 2 things that are keeping the US in the place it is at right now economically:
thats wrong but im too tired to edit it, figure it out :P

Corvus
Corvus
12 years ago

i don't claim there is some overarching plan for world domination but there is definitely a strategic military action possibility as long as the US is within strike range of a number of countries. russia china, the mideast, south america, north korea.
there are 2 things that are keeping the US in the place it is at right now economically:
world oil is still mostly traded in dollars which gives us an enormous amount of borrowing power. everyone wants to dollar to do good and by extension the US when the major import export commodity has to be sold in dollars. they CANT f--k our economy by asking for us to pay our debt right now becaue of what it would mean to trade.
secondly we DO have a huge military presence all over the world. we are in striking range of basically every potential trouble area. can you imagine how we would feel if china had military bases in places like canada and mexico because they were strategic to them?? part of the issue with geopolitics is that we are moving really fast and doing a LOT of things. can we juggle 2 wars, an exploding middle east, and an exploding debt on our pointless(imho) 4 year election cycle? in addition to this is the fact that we have lobbies for corporate interests guiding a lot of our policies. its like a huge clusterf--k of $$$$ and oil and debt and religious extremism both in the US and the rest of the world. it makes my head spin to think about, thats my piece i guess.

alleycat44
alleycat44
12 years ago

get your head out of your arse! ireland ain't worth the hair on my balls...even in risk!

alleycat43
alleycat43
12 years ago

@corvus (comment No. 88) that about sums it up. it doesn't take a genius to figure it out, a map and some pins should do it.

i'm irish, and now that we've sold our soul to the IMF and soon will be auctioned off to the highest bidder, i wonder will some super-power ( my personal favourite - China) come to our rescue?

and then...

when we're beholding to them, set up a military base here and encase Europe.(anyone who has ever played 'RISK' knows the value of Ireland/British isles)

i continue to place my pins and am not optimistic.

Jesus in another guise
Jesus in another guise
12 years ago

if you wonder what is the point in doing this, it's because they live in closed communities where they can have sharia law which means that no one can check that they have not got 4 wives and I'm sure the police wont check, the result is the Muslim population is growing 10 times faster than the rest of us, the clock is ticking before the Jihad against the Christians of lebanon happens in the west so there is no point in feeling sorry for people who are going to force you to convert at the end of a sword. They do allow you to live if you submit to allah but they force humiliation on you as commanded by the Koran.

Jesus in another guise
Jesus in another guise
12 years ago

@Corvus no one is arguing just debating, loose change, 9/11 ripple effect, all this crying about palestine from the muslims when they have killed the palestinians aswell but not in self defence on a number of occasions and no im not a Jew, the other one is you are on muslim land and get off it carry on, they live in europe they are on our land and also they are occupying egypt and the lebanon. Alqueda declared war on the west in 1998 so what do you want the USA to do, the only mistake they have made is that they have tried to do it with kid gloves, same as in Iraq, aye some companies might be making a profit but thats not evil, it's just bad policies, the Americans have made a lot of mistakes they should have studied the method the British used in these situations. However that may not have made any difference because Islam hasn't reinvented itself it has gone back to basics and it has nothing to do with what the west or Israel has did but it's just they planned it this way, they know what they are doing, they know they have large Muslim populations in Europe etc and they are radicalising them into the original form of Islam and teaching them to hate us, I'm not completely sure if that would have been possible without the west being in afghanistan and Iraq but the fact is they set the bate and the USA took it but it doesnt mean we should be condemning our countries, have a look towards the arabs they started this.

Corvus
Corvus
12 years ago

@Jesus in another guise
what muslim propoganda? if they had a propoganda machine they wouldnt be blowing themselves up to send us a message
nevermind, i dont want an argument think what you want

Jesus in another guise
Jesus in another guise
12 years ago

@all the anti-establishments here do you want to live under towel head rule because that's the future, you need to stop believing Muslim propaganda, I bet not even one person here knows that the Muslims launched Jihad against the christian country Lebanon 30 years ago, I know you will all laugh and call me a lunatic but check out the facts from a non bias Muslim propaganda perspective, the problem with the west is that it has been infiltrated because there are too many anti-Semitic Nazi lovers who side with the Muslims against the Jews.

Corvus
Corvus
12 years ago

just thought id mention that japan afghanistan and iraq and israel are great locations strategically if you ever need to bomb say.. china or russia, korea, iran, or basically anywhere you cant just fly from the US in a short period of time. its not really about oil or platimnum in afghanistan or copper or natural gas, its al these things. the military presence will keep us in the right place to control our interests if our economy crashes or we run out of oil .

Adam
Adam
12 years ago

Not one mention of Osama Bin Laden the boogie man. He hasn't been charged. No one has been brought to justice for 9/11. It was an inside job. Get out of the middle east and let those countries run themselves.

eugler
eugler
12 years ago

Just read some more of the comments and I wonder why nobody points to the obvious solution: the Taliban are sh**heads and so are the US and her allies (which includes to my deep frustration my country as well). Both sides have done and will continue doing unspeakable things and both in their own little way. And yet the majority of the people on both side seems to choose readily to believe that their own cause is just and the others must be evil lunatics (how else could it be?). The Afghans herd sheep in the mountains and the vast majority of them have never read a book except for the coran so there is at least an explanation. Why most of the people in the West see this conflict (and the ones related to it) like a bunch of ret**ded 6th graders continues to escape me...

eugler
eugler
12 years ago

@ reasons voice

I'm not gonna get into the the usual 9/11 debate but for enligthenement's sake Pipelines through Afganisthan are very valid argument. They would come in handy for the Russians but are much more important for the Europeans since going through Afganisthan is the most practical route to transport oil and even more important gas from Central Asia to Europe without crossing Russian territory. This would decrease European dependancy from Russian gas significantly and is not in Russias interest. I can't say to what extend this was a reason for the war or just a welcomed bonus, I'm merely stating the facts. If you wanna verify I suggest researching Nabuco and North Stream.

The doc is a little shallow but well made by the way.

Jay W
Jay W
12 years ago

Greenock Bhoy,

Yeah, and Osama was just talking out of his ass when he bragged to one of his Saudi Sheik friends on camera about how he brought down the towers, and all those communications and coordination going back and forth between Afghanistan, Hamburg, and the US just prior to the attack among Al Qaeda members were just a figment of our imagination. f

You do not want to correct me because you do not have the evidence to correct me with, so just be quiet and get off that conspiracy pedestal. The towers were not brought down the the Mossad.

Conspiracy Spoiler
Conspiracy Spoiler
12 years ago

we cant leave there we need to use it as a base to invade iran and any ragheads who dont like it lick my balls u pedophiles

Greenock Bhoy
Greenock Bhoy
12 years ago

Jay W,if you really beleive it was AlQaeda that was responsible for that youre a lost cause and dont even deserve to be corrected.The Taliban is not sheltering them anymore.Only innocent Afghanis and soldiers based there are getting killed,there is no good going to happen if the US and co stay there.

Jay W
Jay W
12 years ago

Unlike Iraq, the only reason we invaded Afghanistan was because of 9/11 and the fact that they were sheltering Osama bin Laden. If 9/11 never happened and Afghanistan never sheltered bin Laden, nobody would have cared about them. It would just be another case of Third Worlders slaughtering other Third Worlders.

But the fact is, if we do leave, Al Qaeda will be back, and we will basically regress back to the pre-9/11 situation. The Taliban is still sheltering al-Qaeda in Pakistan, and all indications point to a return of al-Qaeda once we leave. And if we do leave, we will have lost a base to attack al-Qaeda in Pakistan.

American dream
American dream
12 years ago

@Joedenbob well said my dear fellow, in my opinion people who side against the United States of America and the United Kingdom just don't want to face the reality because they are scared of these people because they have a crazy indoctrine but what they don't realise is that Moslems pick on the weak it is an order in the Koran that peace is only temporariy until you are again stronger than your enemy and then you relaunch jihad, they need to be oppressed to be kept in check, we need to supervise and rule these m@#$%^.

Joedenbob
Joedenbob
12 years ago

Wow I would hope that someone could make an un bias documentory. What of the attrocities performed by the Taliban since the NATO invation and before. What of the gross human right violations, especialy against women. Get a grip and learn the facts before you comment!

ProudinUS
ProudinUS
12 years ago

What the"Holy jumping monkeys in the sand"is going on in the comments here.Sounds like some of you are some "hard core" library thugs.Is that what you are? Looking up every peice
of rubbish you can dig up on my country.Wow, wouldn't want to p!ss you guys off.I mean I don't want to make you go all crazy and through a challenging word at me.

You anti-US f^cks are truly not in tune with "Survial of the Fittess".We don't need to kill our own people to get what we want to insure luxuries/needs.Evertime a peice of sh^t film maker sell his propaganda at the expense of hurting the loved ones that died on 9-11 and make a fortune, it just disgusts and infiriates the average citizen who thanks God every morning for living in The Good Ol' USA.

I hear some bash the gov.(alright)But they've been their for centuries and must be doing something right.We're world power(how ever smug and aragant that sounds,don't care)

I'm just a proud US citizen stating my oppinion that comes from the heart and not from every peice of junk articles I can dig up just to justify my feelings.I have hatred for EVERY sanddwelling Islam monkey.(Redneck style)

What ever happened to pride and show of respect for the fellow Americans? You know dam well how we got our country.We used brutal force so we could build a free society for ourselves...What? do you want gov. to tell every bloodie detail that it really takes to be a world leader.Of course we take what we want! To build and maintain power for us only..Show me one power house in history who has not done this.(and we will keep doing this not only for ourselves,but more importantly for our children)

No matter what you anti-US/Gov goons say, US is going to thrive and NEVER go without... from the heart of a realistic American.(not from internet B.S. theory)

Derp
Derp
12 years ago

Reasons Voice, here is some copy-pasta:

During the Taliban rule, Afghanistan saw a bumper opium crop of 4,500 metric tons in 1999. However, in July 2000, Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar, collaborating with the United Nations to eradicate heroin production in Afghanistan, declared that growing poppies was un-Islamic, resulting in one of the world's most successful anti-drug campaigns. As a result of this ban, opium poppy cultivation was reduced by 91% from the previous year's estimate of 82,172 hectares. The ban was so effective that Helmand Province, which had accounted for more than half of this area, recorded no poppy cultivation during the 2001 season. By November 2001, the collapse of the economy and the scarcity of other sources of revenue forced many of the country's farmers to resort back to growing opium for export.(1,300 kmĀ² in 2004 according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime.)

Reasons Voice
Reasons Voice
12 years ago

@Mike; The taliban was created and sustained by the drug trade. That statement of yours was just so ignorant of facts it actually shocks me. Even the Taliban would say how much BS that was. Pretty sure there is a documentary on this very site that was an insider into the taliban heroine trade done, You guessed it, years before US involvement.

jack1952
jack1952
12 years ago

@ Antagonist

I just watch Religulous. It wasn't bad. That stoner catching his hair on fire was hilarious.

Religion is not really the problem, however. Even if you could magically cause the immediate disappearance of all religions, we would still be at each others throats. Religion, politics, economics, racism, to name a few, are merely symptoms of the insanity. Eliminating any one of them and the insanity will focus itself on something else. Religions seem more irrational than others. Love thy neighbor but be quite happy to see him burn in hell just doesn't make any sense. As an agnostic, I don't have the benefit of having all the answers. It would be nice, for just once, to see a religious person admit that he doesn't know something, but I guess having the word of God at your disposal would prevent this from ever happening.

So, with this in mind, goodbye and God bless.

jack1952
jack1952
12 years ago

@ antagonist

A benevolent tyranny. I love it.

the loler
the loler
12 years ago

its not that they cant Mike, I think its well within their capacity to level the entire nation and kill every living thing over the size of a roach within its boarders. I think its more a case of not caring, and infact profiting from it most likely, directly and by means of gaining favour with the people who control it.

Governments love drugs, the money they make selling them is completely off the books and hence can be spent doing anything they want without having to acount for it. It also keeps the population supressed, those who live outside the law live in fear of it, those who live along side the addicts live in fear of the drugs. You arnt asking questions about whats going on in the Middle East when you are too busey being concerned for your kids because your housing estate is full of drug dealers and junkies. You arnt asking whats going on with the bank bailouts, and whos paying your politicians campaign costs.

Its like the madness in the middle east in general, the mistake is to think it was somehow a mistake and is something that doesnt benifit the governments of the west. They want the terrorism, they want the who region to be unstable. Every time a muslim bombs the west they can enact more laws to give themselves and big businesses power over thier populations. Every minute the arabs spend fighting eachother and the west they can be further exploited. Its a mistake to presume the interests of western people and the interests of western governments are the same thing, theyre not.

We live in societies based on competition, dog eat dog, you are a dog, I am a dog, the government are dogs, they want to eat us, we do not share all interests. It is in their interests to completely monopolise all power in their countries and the world, my wellbeing and your wellbeing are not a consideration untill they directly effect that goal. If our suffering helps further that goal then believe me they will not hesitate. They are capable of taking over any nation they want and completely monopolising every possible source of power within it in physical terms, the only thing stopping them is there isnt enough terrorists and hostile foriegn powers out there to justify it.

Why do you think we sell so many arms to foriegn nations? they need a reason to go in and raid these countries, you and me are only going to pay for it if they can convince us it needs to be done, and untill theyre armed to the teeth with weaponry and using it against other countries thats not going to happen.

Mike
Mike
12 years ago

Under the Taliban Afghanistan produced almost none of the world's heroin.

Under the United States and Hamid Karzai, Afghanistan now produces somewhere on the order of 80 percent of the world's heroin.

Does this not strike anyone else as madness???

How is it that a government of "islamofascists" can almost eradicate poppy production in their country but the United States with it's almost unfathomable defense budget cannot?

If this doesn't strike anyone else as completely insane then....

Antogonist
Antogonist
12 years ago

Religion is the reason for this, if there was a war against Jews and christians as well as Moslems you can count me in, why should we care about the Jews we should just care about ourselves, maybe we should kill them all and begin a new tiranny around the world that would be nice.

jack1952
jack1952
12 years ago

@ Antagonist

Israel has a population of over 7 million people. To expect them all to leave is unreasonable. What Israel must do is stop illegal settlements; allow Palestinians to return to their homes in Israel; guarantee them equal rights (not lip service) and guarantee with unconditional support, a Palestinian homeland. Until they do this there will be no end to trouble in this area. American policy should reflect these ideals.

There have been no major attacks by Al-Qaeda from other countries because those countries will not allow it. The leaders of these countries may have an ideology that lies with Al-Qaeda, but they would not risk having the U.S. invade them which would lead to their subsequent lose of power. Another example of self interest at work. Even with the Tali-ban back in power, it does not mean they will allow Al-Qaeda to resume operations as before. Like any politician, the first priority would be to hold onto power.

Antogonist
Antogonist
12 years ago

@jack 1952 what prevents the so called al-queda from training in other countries and attacking the U.S. There are many countries which are supposed to have al-queda training camps but the USA hasnt been attacked by them, why would leaving afghanistan make any difference to that situation. Anyway the United Kingdom learned a long time ago that the only way to deal with terrorism is dialog, if we wish to put an end to it then the USA should stop supporting Israel and demand that they leave the country. Israel is the fuel behind any of this type of terrorist organisation.

jack1952
jack1952
12 years ago

@Jaybee

Those in control of American policy in Afghanistan have many reasons for being there; some altruistic, others not so benevolent. To apply the motives of one individual in the U.S. hierarchy to all of them, would be a mistake for both of us. In the end it is our own conscience that will decide for each of us where our support lies. That there are selfish or even evil individuals who will happen to agree with either you or me, is an unfortunate consequence of the brutality of war.

The allied forces invaded Afghanistan because the Tali-ban protected a group that attacked the United States. The Indian government does not and will not protect those types of terrorists. So the U.S. does not invade. That is American self interest. No American politician would seriously suggest an invasion of India even though it may be the right thing to do. That would be political suicide in almost any democracy in the world.

I think we both agree why the U.S. can't leave. The reinstatement of a theocracy could give terrorists a base of operations. The preservation of human rights is a positive side effect if a theocratic government is prevented from returning. I am not that naive as to believe that human rights is the prime motivation for most American politicians. No one wants to be at fault if Al-Qaeda resume attacks from inside Afghanistan. Good and bad motives seem to go hand in hand. It's what make the issues of war so complicated and divisive.

I also agree that the United States has not been the bulwark of human rights protection. Their support of dictators around the world is a shameful blot in their history. It also explains why many do not believe a word they say. Now, when they need world support, they have trouble finding it due to past atrocities that they were a party to. That still does not excuse Al-Qaeda nor does it imply an American conspiracy (I don't think you're one of those truthers though).

Thanks for your input.

jaybee
jaybee
12 years ago

@jack1952: That's very optimistic and points out the best of reasons for the western forces in being in Afghanistan with the hell hole of Muslim fanatics being a place where they just find themselves out of necessity. Its not so simple. If their presence in Afghanistan is to prevent a "theocracy" only for the sake of preventing human rights abuses that it may bring, then how about American going into Indian Kashmir and doing something about the human rights abuses there as well now that Wikileaks shows the Red Cross informed US Diplomats about them? Why then did they support military rule in various countries and the infamous Saddam regime against Iran? The US itself is no bullwark of human rights protection either, Abu Gharib, Guantanamo and many others are testament to that. Just because you wear a fancy suit and sign something on paper for all to see doesnt mean Guantanamo and Abu Gharib are any less than what you think the "theocracy" in Afghanistan would do. Believing that is creating a mirage for yourself. The Western forces are there because they botched the support they had when they initially invaded Afghanistan and now cant leave because if Taliban and AL Qaeda regain control, Afghanisatan will become a base for operations outside....beginning with Pakistan and bombings in Europe and the US will increase manifold. There's no egalitarian protection of Afghan people or human rights in their minds, lets get that straight.

the loler
the loler
12 years ago

@ reasons voice, you make a fair comment there about focus and getting somewhere. It kind of reminds me of the American charicter from In The Loop, the movie of The Thick Of It series though

"we have too many facts, last thing we need is more facts on the issue, in the kingdom of the blind the man with 1 fact is king"

Its a very practical mindset and for a practical person makes complete sense, pick a side, know just enough to justify that side and then you can spend your energy doing rather than thinking. Of course the mindset requies one to have absolutely zero consideration or care for the truth in a given situation, truth and compassion becoming seen as the baggage that weights down the weak while the strong are unteathered and can act decisively.

Being a guy who is still in touch with his humanity I have to say truth, justice and compassion are still the core of my philosophy and I am unable to take the leap into the winner takes all mentality, so you will have to forgive my lack of focus and broad spectrum suspicions.

the loler
the loler
12 years ago

yeah, very true, good points. The Isreal situation is definatly a big factor when it comes to Iran. I dont actually think Iran would ever nuke Israel, unless it was invaded and it was a sort of dying act of spite in the last hours of their government. But the thing is, the plan is to invade eventually it would seem, America seem set on it, theyve spent years laying the groundwork with propaganda.

Its another clock thats ticking, they need to invade before they get a nuke, before they can exploit the oil markets and certainly before Iran become any more of a player in regeional and international terms. The international markets are full of loaded dice so to speak, and the last thing the big multinational companies want is lose cannons on the deck, truely indipendant nations that wont always play ball. They dont like what they cant control, they need all the pawns with weight if theyre going to avoid all risk, and countries that are part of OPEC are key pieces in the game.

Its such a sad situation, thing is, as much as the west is full of moral people who would be disgusted with the reality of whats going on out there, they are also used to their lifestyle. This is built on old european empires and the exploitation of the 3rd world, if our governments cant maintain their exploitation of these people then our tertiary sector economies will suffer big time, and we have seen in greece what happens when you turn around and tell a nation tha it cant support itself anymore. They would sooner nuke few 3rd world opponents than risk the angry mob turning up in the 10,000s outside their offices looking for some french revolution style justice.

America also has its war economy to think of sadly, their nation runs on war, its turning over many billions of dollars a year, thats a lot of jobs, a lot of taxes, essentially america needs to be at war almost constantly to keep up that industrial might that the second world war kicked off. According to newspapers here in the uk its costing america $700,000 a year to put 1 soldier in the middle east for a year. So when Obama amounces hes sending out 30,000 more troops, and we could be out there till 2015 and beyond, thats one serious $ cost. All that money is driving their economy, sure theyre paying it, but its also payed back in wages and then spent again. If America run out of wars then a serious amount of money stops changing hands. They need war for its own sake almost as much as they need the oil. Its a vampire nation, like Brittian, its empire or bust, we need blood, both black and red to keep us going.

Antogonist
Antogonist
12 years ago

@the loler while I agree with everything you have said you forgot to mention the primary reason why the USA have saught to prepare the foundation for the invasion of Iran is that Iran poses the only serious threat to the existence of Israel. I believe it was decided that sacrificing American lives was determined to be worth it in order to groom the mentality of the world to turn a blind eye to the ongoing war crimes committed by Israel, at the current time there is a peace deal on the table but Israel will not cease to build settlements on land which is not rightfully theirs, this suggests they have no intention of stopping and aim to have the whole of Palestine very soon then there would be no need for peace talks, question if people didnt have such a negative view about moslems would the world be more vocal in there comdemnation of a situation which is actually worse than apartheid in south africa ever was.

If anyone casts their minds back to immediately after Iraq had been sucessfully beaten as a conventional military force in 2003 the USA were threatening other countries in the region with Invasion using 9/11 as a pretext, the ultimate aim to take complete control of the region but I'm certain the primary objective was to remove the only superpower in the middle east Iran especially before they have nuclear capability. For if they obtain Nuclear capability then Israel will have to stop attrocities and also withdraw to pre 1967 border lines without doubt or even withdraw from Palestine completely. I think the real coalition is a perfect marraige between Jewish interests and American greed or else a wish to ensure economic survival. To save the future of the United States to enable the rich to maintain their lifestyles and to ensure the survival of the Jews in Palestine, it's a perfect marraige however if it wasn't for Israel there would be no reason for the United States to have bad relations with any countries in the middle east and their future economic security in regards to oil supplies would not be in doubt in the way it would have been pre 9/11.

the loler
the loler
12 years ago

9/11 was unquestionably the work of high players within the American government/intelligence framework, if you think any different at this stage god help you, ignor my comments because they come from an entirely different universe to the one you live in.

AtomicB had a good post on why we are there, people stumbling through oil, then an oil pipe, no its gas, no its minerals etc. Atomics obviously been reading the same newspapers I have, as far as I was aware its a natural gas pipe through the country. Thats only part of it though, Im sure other natural resources play small roles, poppies/heroine definatly included. But when you look at Afganistan on a map, then a big bit of the zigsaw fits in. To its west it has a massive border with Iran. The other side of Iran has a massive boarder with Iraq, so to have a war ready army in Iraq and Afganistan is essentially surounding Iran, the Americans and Brittish have active armies litterally on their doorstep, and at very short notice could invade from every angle.

Iran is the real prize, we want it back, Brittain is still miffed that they lost it and America is determined to get it back under western control. If they start inflating the price of oil under the banner of it becoming more scarce and being a source of global warming or whatever bs theyre trying to squeeze money out of us with, then countries like Iran benifit from this. They will be funding a country that is outside of this international corperate grip that has the rest of us by the balls, a country whos policies and trade agreements cant be bought by western bankers the way they buy our politicians. They have to destroy Iran and bring its resources back into the international monopoly before they can roll the dice on oil, screw the world for as much as they can get away with and then finally alow new technology to properly come forward and replace it. You want electric cars with no emmisions? You want cleaner power plants? Well youre not going to get them untill the oil barrons get their massive payday the 'peek oil' theory has been promising them, and thats not on the cards as long as Iran is a country run by Iranians.

Thats how I see it anyway.

Alex
Alex
12 years ago

Lots of Oil & Natural Gas in Afghanistan

Reasons Voice
Reasons Voice
12 years ago

@Antagonist; Don't presume to apologize for me, thank you. My conversation with Nigel went quite well and as you can see we see eye to eye on most issues. As to my narrow mindedness, nothing of any values has ever been accomplished by anyone who lacked focus. A concrete belief in one thing is much stronger than a broad spectrum suspicion of everything.

Nigel from New Zealand
Nigel from New Zealand
12 years ago

@ Reasons Voice,
haha, yeah it probably was rather obvious it was a post for you! We may not agree on everything though it does appear we have a similar sense of humour.

I fully understand & share your thoughts on the size & complexity of the task ahead in removing or cleansing the existing power structure. Remember though my friend that Ghandi single handedly over came the might of the British Empire & quite literally changed the course of history. His only possesions were his loin cloth robe & a pair of sandals! Imagine if he had his loin cloth, sandals AND the internet!

There is hope yet & my personal opinion is that the change will come about within the next 50 years & it will start with America's second revolution. If ever the world needed America to stand up & be counted it is now, even with your bankrupt federal govt balace sheet you still lead the world & where America goes the world follows, but not for much longer. Strike while the iron is hot because when Americans take to the streets enmasse demanding accountabilty, transparency & justice the world will rise up with you. This is my honest & sincere belief.

I'm off to the local menswear to buy me a loin cloth & good quality pair of sandals! God Bless America!

antogonist
antogonist
12 years ago

@ Nigel from New Zealand while I feel sorry for reasoned voice for his narrow mindedness I have to commend you for being completely sane unlike him, he believes men walked on the moon lol

Reasons Voice
Reasons Voice
12 years ago

@Nigel; I figured that LoL. You are right some of my posts may seem closed minded but in a way they are realistic. Outside of massive armed rebellion there is no chance at deposing the political structures or the global elite nations. A common working man could never dream of a run at political office due to the cost. And those with the money or influence to run are already corrupt. I am not being deliberately closed minded just resigned to realities. As to the internet yes it does attract some quite intelligent and reliable sources of info but it also attracts some truly stupendous loonatics that can sound just as credible. Hashing out who is who and which is which is a challenge.

Nigel from New Zealand
Nigel from New Zealand
12 years ago

@ Reasons Voice.......
Last post was for you!

Nigel from New Zealand
Nigel from New Zealand
12 years ago

I accept your point about who will try them, BUT! that should never never ever be used as an excuse to ease up on the push for justice & the education of the masses by very active organisations is taking place right here on the internet! The main source of Arm Chair Politician is the TV not the internet.

I find it hard to believe that anyone intelligent enough to be posting here considers the internet community a society of arm chair politicians. Millions are educated daily over the web by highly professional, superbly structured sites run by highly credible people & organisations.

You need to stop & think a little more before posting here. Some of your comments are extremely valid while others display & very closed mind & unwillingness to consider an alternate point of view based on FACTS!

Reasons Voice
Reasons Voice
12 years ago

Well they will never be brought to justice. Who do you think will try them? Obviously not the UN the nominated one to high position. So what a bunch of arm chair politicians on the internet are going to bring down the ruling elite? I think not. Meanwhile they steal every bit of liberty we poses and impose a nanny state upon us because they think we are all too stupid to take care of ourselves. And sadly as time goes on we are more and more like what they think of us.

Nigel from New Zealand
Nigel from New Zealand
12 years ago

please forgive my poor spelling & grammar in my last post............ I was feeling a tad upset!

Nigel from New Zealand
Nigel from New Zealand
12 years ago

@ Reasons Voice
That event.....nine years ago was responsible for the lives of nearly 3000 innocent people, mainly Americans, let alone the dozens if not hundreds who have since died of various health complications PLUS the hundreds of thousands we have killed (i.e. the West) in retaliation.

That event.....was allowed to happen (possibly even made to happen) by people who should be tried for murder yet they continue to walk free, though our governments are quite willing to extradite movie stars for having under age sex over 20 years ago!

Bush, Blair, Rice, Cheney, Rumsfeld, the list goes on, are war criminals & while we extradite movie stars for having under age sex over 20 years ago we allow these lying mass murderers to take high office lucrative such as Blair the UN Middle East peace envoy!

The absolutely madness of this system is so in our faces & such a masive pack of lies & corruption that it is difficult for most to comprehend as it is so brazen. The non- Western world looks at us, our way of life, & sees us for the complicite, lying, ignorant hypocrites that we are & the current day catalyst fot this insanity was the events of 911.

So, yes reasons Voice, we continue to focus on those events & so we should until the perpetrators are brought to justice just like the never ending search for Nazi war criminals continues to this day.

Reasons Voice
Reasons Voice
12 years ago

@Farren; My intention was not to discourage questioningthe official reports. That is fine and not an insult. It is the trivializing of the event "9 blah blah blah 11 blah" in that way. If someone hurt your familly in a robbery attempt and I said "home blah blah invasion blah" you might find it disrespectfull. Thats all.
@420; Yes our government sucks. But not in the ways most focus on. They screw us in so many ways day to day I am sure that they are glad to have us focus on an event 9 years ago.