Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
Ben Stein shows us a world where Academia's freedom of inquiry might not be so free. This should be a concern for anyone and everyone. This undermines the concept that we will be teaching facts and truth in our universities. However, if you watch how this documentary is formatted you will find that this documentary is overly biased, delving into spectrums of propaganda! Let me explain. Stein sets about proving his premise by interviewing scientists that have been rejected by the establishment. Scientists who have allegedly had their lives ruined because of their belief in something called "Intelligent Design." Science isn't here to persecute people's beliefs and this concept would probably outrage anyone... that is until you realize the lengths he goes to paint science as the root of this evil.
So, we have Stein interviewing scientists that have had their qualifications ruined by the establishment, wouldn't you think Stein should interview people working in the scientific community at the time about this issue? If this persecution of dissidents was happening I would think he'd go and talk to people still working in the field and cite his examples for scrutiny. This never happens. Either Stein is a just a terrible host for a documentary and should stick to the game shows, or he has an agenda. Stein does interview PZ Myers, Michael Ruse, Eugenie Scott, and the mighty Richard Dawkins for his grand finale, but he never once asks them about the people that were fired or denied tenure. He only sticks to questions concerning how life began.
He doesn't even really talk to them about why Intelligent Design is rejected by the scientific community versus why evolution is taught. He never asks these questions. Michael Ruse, who isn't even credited during his interview (more sloppy documentary work), proposes a possible life beginning scenario involving crystals. This results in Stein asking him again how it's possible... after Ruse just told him and results in what can be interpreted as a rude response from Ruse. This style of filming to show scientists as unwilling to entertain the idea of Intelligent Design pushes the viewer to see science as intolerable.
Seems as though no one on this forum knows how life began. Fine. OK, then how did we get here via the process of evolving? Sorry if that question is too threatening or challenging, just wondering since there seem to be some mighty smart people on this forum.
For you to receive an intelligent answer, you must ask an intelligent question. First of all, who is "we?"
Sorry, sir, it was not my intent to ask an unintelligent question. Perhaps this information I found online will help you understand what I meant by "we": "Used by the speaker or writer to indicate the speaker or writer along with another or others as the subject: We made it to the lecture hall on time."
Does not answer the question which was " . . . then how did we get here via the process of evolving?" Who do you mean by we? On the other hand, you've answered your own question. So why did you ask it in the first place? You might want to try again to phrase it intelligently.
Let me be more specific. How did the life form we represent survive billions of years of inclement weather without the things that evolution needed to provide us to survive, such as senses, skin, hair and the ability to fashion shelter and clothing? If this is too difficult, feel free to move on, Mr. robertallen.
And just which life form do "we represent" and what do you mean by "inclement weather?" It's obvious that you still have difficulty couching an intelligent question.
I reviewed a lot of the comments about this film and it seems as if many say we "got here" by "evolution". This seems to me to be an incomplete or misleading answer since the commenters (at least those defending evolution) don't seem to really know how we "got here". Not to mention the shrillness of the evolution defenders makes me question their confidence. Maybe it's partly a job security thing or a passion for the theory or a hatred of Christian people or all the above.
I suppose you have a better SCIENTIFIC answer backed by heaps of evidence. If so, let's hear it.
I am not on here pretending to be a scientist or a science teacher or even a science aficionado. I was merely presenting the question that I posed. Apparently, science has no answer for how we "got here" and it seems to me the science community should not pretend that they do.
First of all, you must define what you mean by "how we got here," especially the pronoun "we."
I'm no scientist, however I can tell you that for you to be here your mother and father had intercourse unless you where an IVF baby
Wow, that's a load of info to digest. Seems like there is no agreement on the question so I see why you "do not know". Some say extraterrestial. As for Miller/Urey, I found the following on the Duke University site: "There has been a recent wave of skepticism concerning Miller's
experiment because it is now believed that the early earth's atmosphere
did not contain predominantly reductant molecules. Another objection is
that this experiment required a tremendous amount of energy. While it
is believed lightning storms were extremely common on the primitive
Earth, they were not continuous as the Miller/Urey experiment portrayed."
Where on the Duke University Site?
Came upon this site and read some of the comments about this film, have not seen it. Wondering...how did a living being come from a non living substance? Just asking, so spare me the intolerance, personal attacks and ridicule that robertallen and the mod dude seem to be fond of.
look up "abiogenesis" for a scientific explanation of the processes that could have led to the first living organism. for myself personally i state "i do not know" as the evidence is not sufficient (or i haven't personally seen it) to lead me to state a position with confidence. but "i/we do not know" in no way opens the door for "god did it"
I received your response to Milton, but did not receive Milton's original post. This has been happening quite frequently. Do you have any idea why?
not sure. the only post on record from this poster is the one above. disqus has in the past made mistakes out of our control. and as Achems stated yesterday we are deleting anything that is an attack on a poster
It seems to be happening just about every time there is a new poster.
i have not experienced that personally but maybe one of the other mods have an idea as to why. i will look into it as best as i can.
Thank you.
In addition, to over the edge's recommendations, you might want to read about the Miller-Urey experiment.
Intelligent design does not mean that the study of observable reality is rejected. Take for example The Stretch Factor by Dr. Gerald Schroeder which harmonizes billions of years for the age of the universe with 6 days of creation. The key in this is hermeneutics, i.e. day in Hebrew is yom. Yom can be a literal day or an age (some length of time). Therefore, 6 ages of billions of years. Religion has a history of suppressing science in the west but that does not mean the scientists themselves saw the laws of the natural world as a rejection of God. Now there are religious people and organizations who are trying to right the historical wrong of suppression by becoming more open to what science has to offer. The irony is that now they are the ones who are being suppressed and rejected because of their belief in a designer. A little one sided it seems.
And your point is?
You tell me. It's in there.
Obviously, you don't have a point.
If you cannot see it, then why worry about me telling you? Of course, what is obvious is that it is your job to repel everything that anyone says on this feed that is antithetical to your belief.
If you cannot couch your point in clear terms, you have no point at all.
Wisdom is only possessed by the learner.
Your problem is that you have nothing to teach--or at least nothing intelligible.
But do you know that? You base that conclusion off of something that you do not understand. Deductive reasoning will lead to the point but because you cannot see it plainly, you refuse to search.
I don't have to. It's up to you to write clearly. If you can't, you shouldn't be writing at all which brings me back to the original point: you have nothing to teach--or at least nothing intelligible.
Is it unintelligible? You seemed to see the words but not the point and somehow this is my problem? That just says that you cannot see the forest for the trees. Which is what has presumably led you to spend at least the past 2 years of your life commenting on this particular feed. You are without a doubt an intelligent individual. You are well read and have an innate ability for debate. However, you cannot understand what faith in God is. You understand what it means but not what it is. You spend your time arguing with individuals who have both a passion for their God and for science because you see this combination as somehow threatening.
Belief in (passion for) some entity which you can't prove exists is pathetic and stupid.
Why does it threaten you then? Where does the passion to so vehemently argue with and berate those that possess said belief come from?
A hatred for idiocy and ignorance trying to pass for a virtue.
That is quite a powerful statement. So is it that you see the unwillingness to be open to the prospect that there is no God as ignorance? Not only ignorance but a threat as well?
When you provide the hard evidence of a god (that is your god), I will consider, but until you do, absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
I'm afraid the type of evidence you are looking for will not be found. It is evidence of the soul first, with the mind following. One cannot reach God intellectually but through the soul leads someone to him. Can you really blame someone who has a faith that is very
real to them? Such a hatred must be based on personal experience rather than a
mere disagreement in worldview. What has your experience been with individual’s
who hold a belief in a deity and hold a passion for science?
So you're saying, don't think, just accept, not only the existence of a deity (ostensibly yours) but of a soul as well. That makes faith fraudulent and its promoters such as you despicable.
You can arrive at the probability of a God through intellect and reasoning. However, the belief in God only comes through faith. Are we really trying to deceive? There is no hidden agenda here. The intentions of intelligent design are clearly laid out. What do you believe the intentions are?
"You can arrive at the probability of a God through intellect and reasoning." Why bring in reasoning when "One cannot reach God intellectually [through reason] but through the soul leads someone to him" and " . . . the belief in God only comes through faith?" If that's the case, your god is not worth believing in, for faith is no more than ignorance, gullibility and stupidity amalgamating into a false virtue. Being the very anthesis of reason, faith is contemptible, pinchbeck and fraudulent.
Furthermore, probability is a mathematical concept based on hard data and attempting to employ it to prove the existence of a supreme being (ostensibly yours) is dishonest and meretricious.
You're right. The intentions of intelligent design are clearly laid out: to pass off repackaged creationism (religion) as science. As such it is as despicable as those who promote it.
You can reason the prospect of a God (obstensibly mine or otherwise). I suggest listening to Ravi Zacharias for this concept. When I say intellectually I mean through scientific process. You cannot believe in God through the implementation of scientific process because scientific process will not prove God's existence.
Faith is the only way to believe in the existence of a god. Before faith is established it is only conjecture. True faith proves to be self-evident for the existence of a god. This is impossible for you to understand and I do not blame you for that. I do not expect that to make sense.
Intelligent design is science with a presupposition that a god/gods exist and created all things. All scientists come to the table with a presupposed worldview. One can and does look at scientific evidence when studying the universe with said deified presuppositions just as with atheistic ones. Furthermore, they can and do arrive at very concrete (non-fraudulent) scientific facts. Simply because a scientist discovers something about the universe does not mean that they are going to push religion. That's speculative. Many great scientists in the past and present believed in a god of some kind but did not push their presupposed belief on anyone when they made a scientific discovery. Of course some do but a lot have not and do not.
I'm curious though, what do you get out of vehemently debating those who do not hold the same views as you?
First you claim that the existence of a supreme being cannot be established through the scientific process and then have the temerity to call intelligent design science, adding insult by describing it is as "science with a presupposition that a god/gods exist and created all things," Such a presupposition takes it out of the naturalistic ambit of science. Intelligent design is not science and claiming that it is is deceitful and contemptible. I suggest you read Kitzmiller v. Dover School District.
"All scientists come to the table with a presupposed world view. One can and does look at scientific evidence when studying the universe with said deified presuppositions just as with atheistic ones." Anyone who does is not a scientist, for religion or lack thereof has no place in science.
"Furthermore, they [ostensibly intelligent design proponents] can and do arrive at very concrete (non-fraudulent) scientific facts." Name me a few scientific accomplishments emanating from intelligent design.
"I'm curious though, what do you get out of vehemently debating those who do not hold the same views as you." Exposing charlatans like you and Ravi Zacharias, another phony evangelical Christian apologist huckster, who preach the doctrine of blind belief (faith) as a virtue, extol intelligent design to the level of science and cover their inability to prove the existence of a supreme being scientifically by special pleading, i.e., claiming that this entity exists outside the scientific process. You and your faith are no more than exhortations to ignorance, stupidity and superstition.
The fact of the matter is that everyone has a presupposed worldview. You say that nobody should come to the table with presupposition. That's a great desire but it is not reality. You would approach the scientific process with a presupposition that a god does not exist. You would tell yourself that your mind is open but at least subconsciously you would hope that your results not only support your hypothesis but not challenge said worldview as well.
I am not saying that intelligent design has accomplished anything. What I said was that there have been and are today scientists who hold a faith in a god, and have accomplished great things in science. Just as there have been atheists who have done the same thing.
You spend your time vigilantly watching this feed as if you speak for the entire scientific community. The truth is that you do not represent the whole but only a part. Quite frankly the part that espouses just as much hate, bigotry and ignorance as those that believe in a god have.
You cannot understand the thought of believing in something that is greater than yourself because it has not been scientifically proven. I recognize that it is not scientifically proven therefore I must have faith that a god exists. You have faith that a god does not exist. You may argue this but deep down you know it to be true.
I feel that this hatred for religion, faith, God creating the universe, etc. comes from somewhere. I do not know your life nor your past experiences. Perhaps you were from a fundamental Christian family. Maybe you have a deep wound from the church that you cannot let go of.
This hatred will never be quenched and you will never be satisfied with your objective of "exposing charlatans." How do I know this? I know this because you cannot stop doing it. Perhaps you should write a book as it would at least be a much more fulfilling accomplishment.
In the end sir I want you to know that you will not convince me of my presupposition as I will not convince you to relinquish yours. I am okay with this and I hope that you will become okay with this in turn.
I have no contempt for you, I forgive you for belittling me and wish no ill befall you. Furthermore, as a Christian I love you as a fellow human being should love another. I want you to know that God loves you as He loves all of us, regardless if we believe in Him. His love is the Greek, agape. Only love an forgiveness of your fellow man brings satisfaction and peace. Never has hatred brought these things.
Eminent scientists have been both atheists and theists which is why religion (intelligent design) has no place in science and which is why I would approach the scientific process with no religious considerations (presuppositions) at all. Furthermore I represent myself and no one else.
"I recognize that it is not scientifically proven therefore I must have faith that a god [ostensibly the Christian god] exists." In other words, your only evidence is your blind, uncritical belief in this being which you profess to know so much about, but can’t prove exists. Well, don’t try to bring my refusal to accept the existence of this god of yours based on absence of convincing evidence, not faith, down to your intellectual level-–and spare me the Christian crap and your cheap psychoanalysis. .
Do not fool yourself, no person is 100% unbiased.
Creationism is religiously backed. Intelligent design should not aspire to a particular religion. Religion and science are indeed two separate things. The scientific process can commence without muddling it with religion; no matter the worldview of the practitioner. A theist and an atheist can do the same experiment and arrive at the same conclusion based on the evidence. The difference is that the theist will say, "Isn't God, Allah, (whomever) great?" Whereas the atheist will say, "Isn't the natural world great?" The theist is not ignoring what the natural world is doing but they are saying that a designer caused it to work this way. The religion of the scientist is irrelevant.
"In other words, your only evidence is your blind, uncritical belief in this being which you profess to know so much about, but can’t prove exists." - Yes you are exactly right. I recognize that this infuriates you but I do not apologize for it. Again, I likewise do not blame you for not being able to understand it.
Also, how do you know that I have an uncritical belief regarding my religious views? Once one establishes that they believe in a deity then they can begin the process of theology. Theology cannot come before the belief in a god.
"and spare me the Christian crap and your cheap psychoanalysis." - I am simply being transparent, authentic, and observational. Not to mention kind towards you. Your hatred for myself and others who hold the same views as I do is palpable. Is this really a way to live among your fellow man? To each his own I understand but still, to be so angry is concerning. Is this how your treat everyone that you disagree with?
So what? As long as that bias (ostensibly a religious one) does not enter into science. When Kenneth L. Miller, a Roman Catholic, lectures on the fusion of chromosome two, he does not step back and say, "God is great." When Francisco Ayala, another Roman Catholic discovered the reproductive processes of trypanosomor cruzi, he merely wrote a paper--and a fine paper it was. He did not step back and say, "God is great" or some other such nonsense. Thus true to form, you've confounded your conjecture with fact, apparently the product of your faith to which you try to bring everything into conformity with.
"'In other words, your only evidence is your blind, uncritical belief in this being which you profess to know so much about, but can’t prove exists.' - Yes you are exactly right. I recognize that this infuriates you but I do not apologize for it." Quick frankly, you should, as it is no more than abrogation of the intelligence in favor of a puerile belief tantamount to believing in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus, which, as it is based on nothing, does not merit anything approaching respect. Again, spare me the crap about living with my fellow man, etc. You're pathetic. .
Yes I am pathetic. I am pathetic because by faith I believe in something that is bigger than myself. I am pathetic because I give respect to those of whom I disagree with. I am pathetic because I am unapologetic in my worldview. I am pathetic because I have not dedicated my life to pouncing on internet passerbys to make myself feel as though I am achieving something.
Alas we are at an impasse.
Science and theism can and does co-exist to create as well as learn great things. They do not have to impact each other. They simply can co-exist. Religion is only inferred. This is the bottom line.
You have knowledge but your hatred clouds your understanding. We tend to fear things that we do not understand. Which in your case is clearly made evident. You fear religion for the damage that it can do or the closed-mindedness that can often create. However, you cannot recognize when this is not the case or when a movement is being built to abolish these faults. For all of your intellect you have not wisdom, only a fools wisdom. For this I pity you.
Mr. robertallen1 I have truly enjoyed our conversation. You have my respect and I hope that you find happiness and fulfillment in your life.
You may now have the last word.
To sum up, you are pathetic because you claim to know all about an entity the existence of which you admit you cannot prove and then attempt to rationalize this idiocy by contending that this entity is beyond proof, i.e., special pleading. This makes you a mental troglodyte and the faith of which you're so proud merely the cave in which you dwell.
And get this straight, I don't fear religion, I despise it and everything it stands for. Your inability to come up with one benefit which only religion can accomplish says everything about you and it.
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Was it "the stretch factor" and was it related to stretching the truth as to what is known and what is not? I think that was the point. Billions of years equals 6 days. Sweet! That makes me pretty old, however...or is it pretty young?
I like the idea of a stretch factor - pretty much anything goes - a day is an age is a "length of time." That's precision!
I read all the way to the bottom of this thread and saw nothing else, so I'm going with this theory.
Yes, even very prominent scientists have been fired for believing in the Creator's (intelligent) design. I know personally of just one in particular who in fact for all his life taught evolution in universities etc, but who began to open his mind because of the impossibilities he had turned a blind eye to until he could do this no more! He also opened his mind to the possibility of the existence of God and began searching for Him. He became a Protestant Christian and now preaches and teaches Truth (and there is only ONE Truth and security regarding where we come from, who we are and where we are headed). That meant a great deal of humbling of pride, stripping of all he had been wrongly taught and believed, and now he is a very happy man indeed. God has restored all he lost in this process, to boot. Praise the Lord.
" . . . there is only ONE Truth and security regarding where we come from, who we are and where we are headed." And just what is this truth and just how do you know it's the truth?
Just who are these "very prominent scientists?" And why should we believe your anecdote when you haven't even named this person or the educational institute?
A few thoughts regarding this documentary.
Is it biased? yes, as are all documentaries, on some level. The real question is did the point get through? After reading some of the blogs, the answer is obviously no.
Did people get fired for believing in intelligent design? I have no doubt that the answer is likely yes, (only those involved really know the truth) but the only ones that would be deserving of it, are those who are trying to bring faith into a classroom of science. (they were not all teachers)
One thing this documentary does very well is to remind people that nothing, not even science can give an explanation to the origin of life itself. This doesn't mean by default the answer is god, but serves to bring those who live by absolute proof back to reality, (if they are paying attention) reminding them that science will never be able to answer everything. With that said, any man who can get Richard Dawkins to admit that he isn't 100% athiest, should not be dismissed so easily.
Personally, I found the documentary entertaining, and not so outlandish as the explanation that accompanied it would have us believe. Since this subject matter is so devisive to begin with, hard liners from either side of the equation will not be swayed from their own entrenched beliefs.(when in doubt, run home to momma!) The most important thing that Ben Stein did not address, (it doesn't serve his point) can be found in a documentary called 'intelligent design on trial'. (regarding genetics) It is an excellent documentary; look it up, and check it out. It is well worth the watch!
So what if science cannot explain everything. It's better than religion which can explain nothing.
For the real reason why these teachers were fired watch, "Ben Stein's Flunked: No Intelligence Allowed."
You're right "Intelligent Design on Trial" is an excellent documentary and puts intelligent design in its place as a religion and its defendants as moronic religees. .
Now, where did Stein get Dr. Dawkins to admit that he (Dawkins) is not 100% atheist?
I personally know a very prominent evolutionist scientist who was fired from his entire career at universities because he was brave enough and intelligent enough to actually search deeply into what he had always taken for granted was "fact" on evolution. He astounded himself to discover that t in fact takes more faith to believe in evolution than the Bible! ALL the answers are provided in God's Word, and in fact, true (and honest) science supports the Biblical Creation events, and vice versa. It's just that there are many today who have MUCH to lose if this truth was known.
15:21 - This is the very first large mistake that Mr. Stein makes, among others. Michael Shermer wasn't factually "wrong", as he puts it. Ben Stein heard one side of the three or four stories, proving that he went into this with an already incredibly biased opinion. When Shermer said "there had to have been something else going on", he meant exactly that. In other words, "Mr. Stein, you've clearly only heard, and have been willing to hear, one side of every story, and it's the proponents of intelligent design's story that you're hearing, so of course due to hurt feelings, anger, and contempt over losing their jobs, they're only going to tell you enough to make it out that they did absolutely nothing but mention the two words. They clearly did more than that, or else they wouldn't have lost their jobs." Excellent editing job, but again, Stein just went at this with an already biased opinion on the side of "intelligent design", so he edited it like a Michael Moore film to paint the exact picture that he wanted to paint.
i forced myself to watch the whole thing -- it's the kind of production one might expect in an elementary school setting. no actual science, only opinions. no proof of controversy, just belief. why do people laugh at creationists? to get to the other side.
I am a high school teacher and have found many times that some of my most academically gifted students lack in the area of common sense. Without commons sense, many times it's difficult to see the obvious.
1. Common sense tells me that no human being was available at the beginning to observe how the universe and all its components came into being. Therefore, there is no man nor textbook that can dogmatically verify how it all came into being.
2. Common sense tells me that order cannot come from disorder.
3. Common sense tells me that if it all began with a piece of matter, that piece of matter didn't place itself in the abyss and then decide what its purpose was.
4. Common sense tells me that if it happened billions of years ago, why does it not continually happen again and again?
5. Common sense tells me that I have a mind that I can think with. Neither a piece of matter nor an explosion could have given me that ability.
6. Common sense tells me that if we did evolve, when and why did we stop? Why are humans digressing in their actions and in their emotions rather than progressing?
7. Common sense tells me that I have 2 choices: either to believe that an Intelligent Being (God), someone much smarter than I, created all there is or believe that it all happened by accident.
Since no one was there to observe the beginning, I choose to believe the one that actually makes more sense. I choose to believe God created all. To believe otherwise is to believe all there is is one big accident; therefore, so am I. What a depressing way to live: having no purpose.
1. Creation and evolution are occurring all the time. Ask any physicist, biologist or astronomer. And by the way, evolution has nothing to do with humans "digressing in their actions and emotions," whatever that's supposed to mean.
2. The Big Bang (if that's what you're referring to) was not an explosion, but an expansion and it has nothing to do with the mind with which you are supposed to be able to think. Also, the Big Bang is accepted by the preponderance of the mainstream scientific community and for good reason, there is solid evidence behind it.
3. What are your criteria for distinguishing order from disorder?
4. And no, there's another choice: that things occur as a result of natural laws, the only choice that makes sense.
5. If you obtain your sense purpose from belief in a supernatural being whose existence you cannot prove, whom you know nothing about and whom by nature you can know nothing about, you are a mental defective who has no business teaching in a high school or for that matter, anywhere.
I'll tell you why your common sense fails you--because you don't have the knowledge to go with it. Your post reflects an appalling ignorance of biology, physics, cosmology and as a matter of fact, science in general. In short, your post is one of the more ignorant ones on this thread and if indeed you are a high school teacher, you're a disgrace to your profession. I have no idea where you teach or what you teach, but if I did and I found out that you were attempting to bring your theology into the classroom, I would not rest until you were booted out of the profession and your teaching credential, if you have one, revoked.
Evening Choosy, why does being here by accident strike you as a depressing way to live, what purpose do you think there is to life? Do your beliefs season your lessons? Perhaps the children you say have no common sense might actually have plenty, it just doesn't splice with yours :)
IChooseGod
as another poster addressed your points i will just ask a couple of my own questions.
1. what subject(s) do you teach?
2. do you want ID taught in science class? if so please point me to the scientific validity of ID.
3. do you support all religious creation myths being taught to students?
as you have pointed out that "common sense" invalidates multiple areas of science (biology,chemistry,physics,cosmology. mathematics.....) how do you explain how we use these areas of study to create the technology today? the computer used to display your "common sense" relies on the exact same methods that ALL science does
Great, what I thought was an open-minded and free community of people, is just as shallow and closed-minded as the rest of the world. Truth hurts, but what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
And just what are you talking about?
Quadren4
care to expand on that comment?
It's funny, if you question accepted scientific theories, like evolution, it really is kind of like going before a firing squad. I've never seen anything quite like the rage of some of these evolutionists ...oh, wait, yes, I have... in the Pakistan and Israel conflict. Hmmm. Is evolution the new religion?
By the way, on a side note, I too accept the evolution theory as one possibility for how we came to exist. I think there are a few other viable ones too...like (please don't hurt me) intelligent design and (yes, I'm gonna go there) creatures from the sky messing with our DNA.
All of these theories have issues, I'll grant you, but what else have we got?
And just what are the issues with evolution?
Scientific evidence for evolution...check.
Scientific evidence for ID...no.
(But who cares about facts? lets teach it as science anyway!)
Scientific evidence for aliens...no.
Somehow, I think the tested, proven, falsified and confirmed theory of evolution (using the term "theory" in its scientific definition, not the loose laypersons' term) wins hands down.
Sure, the details of evolutionary events are being researched and new knowledge added all the time. But get a grip! There is a very wide gap between speculation and hard work.
Edit: If by "firing squad" you mean the bright light of inquiry, I guess you're right.
Nancy Madore
"It's funny, if you question accepted scientific theories, like evolution, it really is kind of like going before a firing squad." i am sorry you feel that way. i can only speak for myself but i tend to attack the claims/arguments of others not the person themselves. i may question their motives,education or honesty and so on when i feel the situation warrants it. that being said you or others are free to believe what you wish and please question science. but ID is not science and is definitely not a theory in the scientific sense. therefore they cannot be presented in a science class. please ask any questions you wish about evolution and i promise to answer (if i have an answer) honestly and politely. if i or others make you feel like you are before a firing squad feel free to ignore the offending posts.
@Nancy Madore,
If you are seriously looking at intelligent design as a 'possibility for how we came to exist,' you should be aware that for all their talk and their "Wedge Document," the people at the Design Institute (or whatever they may have renamed it to by now), have not actually produced ANY science to support their hypothesis.
I and many of the posters, on this site at least, have gone to the trouble of acquainting ourselves with not just the trial information for the various school district lawsuits, but other DI material as well.
So far, no science. A nicely-produced video and book designed to be slipped into classrooms under the guise of 'inquiry' but all it really does is make some speculations with the pious hope that someone else will do the work. I don't think there are any takers, yet.
The theory of evolution has more than 150 years of hard science behind it, with massive amounts of new data being collected daily.
If there's a 'firing squad' mentality among people who understand the theory of evolution, it's because there is an organized and well-funded effort to promote the views of one sect of one religion as science, and to have a religious viewpoint taught AS SCIENCE to children who have no way of discerning the difference.
To be crystal clear, theology =/= science. They are two different realms altogether.
Someone's got to fight back, or whole generations of American children are going to grow up handicapped in the world economy.
/steps off soapbox
What else have we got?? Try common sense!
In light of the brutal history of persecution perpetrated against scholars and scientists by the religious establishment going back thousands of years, I honestly have no sympathy for bible thumpers getting drummed out of the scientific community. I see it as understandable at worst, and a step in the right direction at best.
Thank you Robertallen1, I do have to admit that this change has been a long time coming. This documentary was just the final nail in the coffin.
You might want to check out "Ben Stein's Flunked: No Intelligence Allowed" which is also on TDF.
One way or the other, welcome aboard and keep posing. I'm sure there are a lot of others who would be interested in your thoughts and impressions.
Thanks again, I have since seen "Ben Stein's Flunked" I came across it when I was thinking of doing a YouTube video about my impression of This Doc. I decide to not do my own because he did a much better and thorough job than I would have ever been able to.
Good. Have you seen "What the Bible Got Wrong," "What Genesis Got Wrong," Why Do People Laugh at Creationists" or any of the other documentaries on evolution on TDF?
yes I have watch most of those. I am planning on writing a review of the ones I have watched. So keep an eye out.
You're doing well. I await your reviewed with bated breath.
Have you seen Chuck Missler's peanut butter lecture on YouTube? If not, why don't you watch it and give me (and everyone else) your opinion? It's only a few minutes long.
Robert, shoot me an email if you will. I would like to keep in contact without taking up ever one's time here.
Austin Wilson
sorry no personal e-mails allowed
I appreciate the compliment, but this is a public site; that is, the purpose of the comment section is to take up everyone's time here which makes it one of the best ways for the dissemination and exchange of information.
Now, have you seen Chuck Missler's peanut butter lecture?
Sorry about that.
Yes I did just watch the Chuck Missler clip. This is exactly what I am talking about. These guys seem to not be interested in keeping any honest thinking people in the faith. Any reasonable person, with a maximum of an 8th grade biology class, knows that this experiment is bogus. It is the same idea that the creationist use all the time. they think that if I prove that evolution doesn't work (in experiments that everyone knows isn't going to work in the first place) then I have by default proven that God must of made everything.
I would love to see him prove his point in the following manner:
Ok, so I have opened this jar of peanut butter and found no new life forms. Thus, I have proven evolution is wrong.
So now in order to prove my view of Christianity I will now demonstrate, based on biblical principles, that God made all things.
Using the principle of scripture:
John 14:11-14
King James Version (KJV)
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the VERY WORKS' SAKE.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask ANY THING in my name, I will do it.
Ask God to turn the peanut butter into Jelly.
If they really want to prove their point, Prove it. They say they have and believe in biblical principles and science.
Science is based on testable proven results. I would think that if is position is true and through the use of the above experiment he would be able to prove is position.
Achem is right. We are all interested in your remarks, especially this one. Notice, the peanut butter was vacuum-packed. So how could there be any new life forms in it, much less any life forms at all, except perhaps for some microscopic ones?
Just a few random questions. Have you watched any of the William Lane Craig debates, especially the one with Bart Ehrman? As a matter of fact have you read anything of Ehrman and if so, what is your view of him?
Are you familiar with Kenneth L. Miller, one of the foremost evolutionary biologists and a practicing Catholic. As he is one of all too few who leave their religion on the doorstep of their lab, he is probably as close as anyone of note to the paradigm enunciated in your first post.
There are so many holes in his "experiment" it's truly not funny. Not only is the example ridiculous, it wasn't a honest scientific experiment. Even if we were hoping to find new life forms from a jar of peanut butter it would be on a microscopic scale. After the discovery of this mythical life form it would have to be turned over for verification to a team of micro biologist to determine if it was new or do to some pre-existing contaminants. also to make this a truly scientific experiment we would have to see the actual research from those billions of jars.
I haven't watch any of the Craig Debates, however, I have read and explored Ehrman's books. It is actually because of him that I started on this journey a few years ago. along with him I am currently reading "A History Of God" by Karen Armstrong. Going back to what I posted earlier. I believe that it is information like this that most Christians are afraid of looking at, and do their best to discredit this kind of evidence. Understand, Christians aren't afraid of truth, what actually scares them is the implications. If we accept the physical evidence and realize that the Bible isn't the inerrant word of God we lose a very deep seated hope and security. The same goes for the acceptance of evolution. If Evolution is correct then how does Adam and Eve fit into the picture? If there was not a Original God created couple who fell to original sin then there is not original sin. If there is no original sin then no need to have a redemptive savior. As a result, and this was true of my on personal faith in the beginning, the reluctance to accept the truth is based on the realization of what we are going to lose.
I will look into the other suggestions you mentioned.
As to the ability to leave your faith at the door to the lab I have a problem with that. That is for anyone who's faith is real and truly a directive aspect of their life. I don't believe we can have it both ways. I don't see how we and be good Christians on Sunday and in a work environment try and accept the reality of a non-created world the rest of the time.
You certainly demolished Mr. Missler--the problem is that there are all too many who believe him and those of his peer group such as Ken Hovind.
Which of Dr. Ehrman's books have you read? Is "The New Testament" one of them and if so, what is your opinion of the volume.
Perhaps Dr. Miller likes the Bingo games, but one way or the other, with him the science comes first. You Tube has a number of videos featuring him which you might find interesting to watch.
Am I correct in assuming that you have a background in both science and religion?
Not sure about demolishing is the correct response, but thank you. You are correct that we aren't going to get everyone to let go of their faith. Speaking from a personal view, I don't feel it's my place to deconvert those people. I do however, feel I should start putting in my two cents worth for those, like me, who find themselves starting to question.
As far as Dr. Ehrman's work, I've read Lost Christianities: Christian Scriptures and the Battle over Authentication. I found his work very interesting and he makes a compelling argument. It truly is astounding as to how much Christians don't even know about their own scriptures. Those who are not willing to accept the truth will never know.
As far as my background that is a long story. Yes I was a minister for 10 years until my wife left me and I was ask to step down from my position. I am a Neuromuscular Sports Massage Therapist by trade now.
Those who promote Missler-like nonsense and disinformation (such as Kent Hovind who is presently cooling his heels c/o of the government) should be incessantly exposed for what the frauds they are and for the wilful ignorance they are disbursing.
I've read, "Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew." Could that be the work you're referring to?
As for Christians not knowing much about their own scriptures (some don't even realize that they are eponymous and that many such as 2 Thessalonians and 1 and 2 Timothy are pseudonymous , Americans don't know very much about their history (Sarah Palin for one), much less about their Constitution. Also find me an American who's read "Tom Sawyer"--there are plenty of Europeans, just about every educated one I run into.
I'm curious. When you were a minister, what type of sermons did you preach? Hellfire and brimstone a la Jonathan Edwards (the best entertainment value so far--have you read the "Day of Doom" by Michael Wigglesworth who upon his first nocturnal emission became convinced that he was eternally damned and spent the next 60 years or so telling everyone about it), hortatory (probably) or scholarly (probably not)? Were your homiletics confined to pleasing your congregation or did you try to strike out in new directions?
Both books are the same just different editions.
to paraphrase Mark Twain, "a classic is something nobody want to read, but wants to be known for reading."
To be honest about my ministry days, I was much as many of the Christians on here. I used many of the same arguments that we all see here everyday. It wasn't until I took a step back away from the faith and started getting my information from more than just the bubble of regurgitated propaganda mills that I started to see how flawed my arguments were. Most of the time, as I am sure is true of many here, I walked away not realizing that I had been the one to lose the debate. To many Christians do not understand that it is not just enough to spout off clever quotes if they truly want to make a difference. They need to start putting forward a legitimate rational case if they are wanting anyone other than the like minded to listen to them.
America has produced a number of fine writers such as Nathaniel Hawthorne, Henry James, Edith Wharton and, of course, good old Sam, who, if they are read at all, are read only as classroom projects.
Were you a seminary-trained minister or one of those street jobs?
I did not go to seminary but I did attend bible collage. The street screamers have always gotten on my nerves. I use to challenge them even as a minister, because much of their doctrine was so flawed even from a Christian perspective.
As there are many and varied "Christian" perspectives, one doctrine is as good as another and thus none is flawed or rather all are flawed.
In bible college, did they teach you anything about biblical scholarship including history or was it pretty much doctrinal?
They taught both actually, however, scholarship classes taught more in a circle, using the Bible itself as the source for which to study it's history. Also most of the text books used were based on bad or self supporting suppositions. So no a true understanding of actual biblical history was not focused on.
Without an understanding of the cultures and history surrounding the periods in which both testaments were written and compiled as well as the antecedent eras, it is impossible to understand any aspect of Christianity or any of the forms it took--and ignorance of same makes apologists a joke.
One way or the other, this explains why the research which you mentioned in your first post came as such a revelation. I strongly suggest that you pick up a copy of Dr. Ehrman's "The New Testament" (3rd edition and later, the ones with the textboxes) and compare it to what you were taught (or indoctrinated with) at bible school. You might be in for a few more big surprises. Reasonably-priced copies are available on the internet
Honestly Robert this documentary didn't really tell me anything I had not already come across before. As I mentioned in my original post I watched this in hopes of something more balanced. It was the lack of evidence and down right lies that just bothered the hell out of me.
As far as the Bible goes I think we need to come to some basic understandings. Either, it is completely true and therefor must be interpreted literally (in which case it proves itself to be unreliable and therefor can not be believed) or, it is a complete work of fiction and therefor should not be used as the basis to build philosophical or scientific knowledge upon.
Oh, robert, I can't pass this one up: "the peanut butter was vacuum-packed. So how could there be any new life forms in it, much less any life forms at all"
Just leave it open in my kitchen for a day or two....approach quietly, late at night in the dark, then turn the kitchen light on...
I *guarantee* life forms will be very visibly abundant on it (or at least evidence of their presence)!
But before it is opened?
"Ok, so I have opened this jar of peanut butter and found no new life forms. Thus, I have proven evolution is wrong." @Austin Williams' post.
I'm just saying, a little patience is required when one is looking to have one's prayers answered. An open jar of peanut butter would be just that to the mice that winter over in my house.
We are all interested in your remarks to the pro and con of religions in general, but! and I say this without prejudice, most of us have heard it before, so am very leery of someone stating, am doing an 360 degree about face.
I completely get where you are coming from. I would assume you meant a 180 degree about face. Whereas I am not sure, as of yet, that I have made a 180, I do feel like there are things that need to be explored and investigated in a truthful and honest manner. I also believe that most Creationist are more afraid of looking at the facts because of where that road leads.
I can understand your skepticism, however, I would appreciate your thoughts on Mr. Wilson's last post anent Chuck Missler.
My thoughts are, either still sitting on the fence, or trying to trick us. I would not even start with any bible scriptures, to evoke any gods to turn peanut butter into jelly, to me that is kids stuff plain and simple. Sorry but still say as some creationists do, trying to get in the back door, to trick. Happened many times on TDF.
Within the last year, I don't recall any creationists trying to get in through the back door. Can you recall any examples?
One was called "Starman" a few years back, there have been others, can't remember all the names.
my point of using scripture is to make the point about the problem of the peanut butter experiment. If they truly feel they have the answers then they need to producing that proof.
As far as trying to trick you, what motivation do I have to do that? I don't have any vested interest in your faith or even if you agree or disagree with me.
Come on Achems, the guy posted his facebook account, his photograph, his home city, the name of the company he works at, the name of his girlfriend...what else do you want? Look at his photographs, there's even cute girls with nice cleavage. I think the guy is genuine.
Are you losing trust in people reading TDf's comments?
1i
ummm thanks I guess LOL
Yes.
Look, Achems I understand your reluctance I really do. I sincerely have no ulterior motives here. besides I wouldn't wish anyone back in to the hell of organized religion. I'm simply here to voice my opinion just like everyone else. If you don't want to trust me that's fine. If you have a problem with something I say, please, by all means say something. I would welcome your critiques.
I was very excited when I came across this Documentary. I thought, awesome, finally mainstream media is going to give us an honest exploration of truth and wisdom. What I discovered though shook me to my core and down to the very foundations of my faith.
After watching, I could not shake the feeling that something didn't seem right. Seeing the contradictions and down right lies propagated by Ben Steins I had to do some research on his supposed facts. My discoveries not only lead me to the fact that this WHOLE documentary is complete propaganda but that even my own faith and belief in a Christian world view is wrong. Christians, PLEASE, for the love of God, if we want to make a case for truth we need to use truth to make that case.
Although I despise theism and everything that goes with it, I must commend you for your last two sentences, especially the final one.
You can't disprove evolution by disproving Darwinism. There were obviously problems with Darwinism because of how outdated it was, scientists now have better ideas of how evolution works, some supporting Darwinism, some not so much. Nobody in this film directly stated that they were fired/expelled for the reason of their beliefs, and like the skeptic had said, there was probably more going on. What's going on with these individual cases could be nothing more but the known fallacy of causal inference. But to be honest if someone came to work at an auto-body center claiming that a horse and buggy is faster than a car, I don't know how long they would be able to keep their job.
this review is bull*hit. the reviewers are atheists and evolutionists reviewing a creationist film, so get a life and get some creationist reviewers, so this isn't so biased
You must use the term "film" lightly IRL.
So in other words, only those pre-disposed to creationism should review a piece of garbage such as this documentary.
This is, hands down, the worst 'documentary' I've ever seen.
This documentary is well done. It is thorough, and as a person who dared question the physics of auto-generation of life, I can attest that narrow minded evolutionary bigots do not tolerate even intelligent counterpoints.
Just what is the auto-generation of life? Just what is an intelligent counterpart to evolution? If you think you can disprove evolution, let's see you do it.
Not science. Creationism repackaged. Part of the real push against freedom by wanting religion in schools. Same people wouldn't agree to Hindu or Muslim teachings.
Give me the empirical proof that a painting had a painter. Something beyond the obviousness of its self evident proof. Something happened to create this universe. I like to back my religion up with science, otherwise it's merely superstition.
It is meaningless we can only see so far into the universe and every time were able to see further we see more the odds and possibilities are infinite for life to happen we have way more stars and solar systems then we do casinos and games so why is this so hard to understand. Because we live on a finite world but seriously we should change the word scientific theory to scientific fact so this who only know simple English can understand what we're talking about. It's appalling to me that real scientists who understand this principle could ever say intelligent design is even a possibility anymore or for that matter even call themselves scientists. Shame on you shame on you
Intelligent design is just repackaged creationism but if something "had to create us" what created it and what created that creator and so on and so forth. The only way to explain how it happened is through evolution through time. We already see it has happened with the wolf being domesticated into various dog breeds large and small they have the same DNA. Another thing is everything alive today share a lot of the same genes. There's a nova special on where did we come from we're science has created 2 of the building blocks of RNA just by precipitation and light and although they havnt figured out How the other to molecules came to be its only a matter of time now till they get the rest of the recipe. Chemistry did create all life on earth and we've been evolving since then. Lets say that a slot machine has a one in a million chance for a jackpot it's perfectly possible to hit the jackpot on the millionth try but people also can hit it on the first try. This is the principle of evolution while certainly it could have taken all the try's necessary to "hit the jackpot" the chance of chance happens to be much different with it landing many time before the required try's and once it happens once then life does what it does it reproduces and mutates. Intelligent design is rubbish and anyone who would try to undermine scientific progress by pursuing this is rubbish and should have been fired. Science must come to a conclusion and uh I don't know it must be intelligent design is not acceptable. In science a hypothesis is formed and tested until it teaches the status of scientific "theory". I use quotation marks because people who don't follow science thier whole life's or don't understand it or don't care or even worse have followed religion thier whole life think that theory means a guess. And that is not what scientific theory is. In science theory means fact so we need to change the word I think to simply scientific fact so even idiots can understand that it's the real truth. Germ theory isn't just a guess " uh well I think there's small thing inside my body that are killing me" no germ theory is germ fact there really are small microbes viruses and bacteria everywhere. And we don't say of that's just a theory now do we. Come on people I know it's great to believe that this life is not the only life ill live but the fact is it is my only life and I don't feel like wasting it away for hope that I'll "transcend" my human for that's just plain old stupidity and wanton hope.
Absolutely correct, but just two things: (1) there can be more than one winning combination; (2) odds apply to closed sets only, e.g., in Las Vegas there are roughly 2,000 blackjack games going at once; look at all the incredible odds being beaten every second, all meaningless.
This movie is total CRAP!!! Ben Stein claims intelligent design is motivated by science, rather than religion, but it's the same kind of science as "I don't understand how cars work! God must have made them." In other words, ID has nothing to do with science. And for Stein to say that Darwinism contributed to the holocaust is a blatant lie! I've read a lot of the history of world war 2, and there are many references from the Nazis to "providence," and to Hitler and God. The standard issue German army belt buckle said "Gott Mitt Uns," (God is with us). Every German courtroom, throughout WW2 had a crucifix on the wall. I read one biography of Hitler which said that Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, if he had lived in the time of Hitler, would have hailed Hitler as the second coming. Of course, this is nothing new. From the political right we constantly see lies and ignorance.
Indeed it is. I'm sure it was accidental, but you forgot to mention Stein's "interview" with Richard Dawkins complete with idiotic and misleading pop-ups.
You are absolutely correct about the German army belt buckle (there are tons of them still left), the references by the Nazis to providence, etc. (Aryan style) and the crucifixes on the walls of every German courtroom (one has only to look at portraits of Roland Freisler). However, speaking of Martin Luther, did you know there was another Martin Luther who, among other things, was one of the chief planners at the Wannsee Conference? Oddly enough, he ended up in a concentration camp.
I'm curious. How many biographies of Hitler have you read and could you list them. I just want to compare it with what I've read.
There isnt a single theory about the creation of the universe that holds up without inventing systems such as "Dark Matter" et. al. Why cant people just believe that we dont possess the so called intelligence to work out the theories of the universe from mathmatical modals.. We cant predict the weather for tomorrow, thats just atmospherics in our own area, never mind trying to predict what collided with what billions of years ago..
Its a moot point.
Is Darwinism right I have no idea, Is ID right, I have no idea, but for ID to be right then those intelligent beings must have come from somewhere. Or were they designed, if so by who.
Which came first, the chicken or the egg..
Darwin..Egg
ID..Chicken
Wow! The giant, pulsating egos on the web are impressive, I gotta tell ya! As for me, I’m nowhere near smart enough to work out the maths that the heavens and the earth came about by random chance. Epicurus says even money? Hmmm I’m glad he’s not my bookie ;) But Roger Penrose, an Oxford physicist, (that’s pretty smart) said that even a single parameter, the original "phase-space volume," required such precise fine-tuning that it can only be expressed by the mathematical demand of an accuracy of one part in 10 to the power of 123. And just to write this number down in full would take more zeros than the number of elementary particles in the entire universe. Also, Scientific American published an article saying that "merely to create a bacterium would require more time than the universe might ever see if chance combinations of its molecules were the only driving force" (The title of the article was "Life: Origin and Evolution," in Scientific American Special Publication, 1979). It seems like at least some smart people doubt the random chance theory. And in my simple mind if it’s not random chance then it must be design and that’s where I stand ?
What I can’t quite figure out is why people as intelligent and superior to “dumb and dishonest” religees ( ha ha) like me, seem so angry. This really intrigues me. I mean, they’ve got it all figured out. They’re obviously genii, why waste time getting all fired up and trying to impress simpletons like me with their brilliance? I’m already impressed beyond belief. I wish they would just leave me to use what my humble life has taught me to believe are my own God given senses and instincts to try and figure out what path is best for me to follow in life. I wonder why they don’t go and play golf or have fun or something. It’s almost like they’re obsessed with their message like……like…….extremist fundies (?)
Like so many of your ilk, you've never cracked open a book on basic physics, biology or, perish the thought, math and yet on you go creating strawmen (there is no such thing as a random chance theory, except perhaps on one of your ignorant creationist web sites) and rambling on about things of which you haven't the faintest idea.
You are just as you describe yourself, a simpleton, and what's worse, not only do you want to remain one, but you try to put down your intellectual betters and bring the rest of the world down to your level. Why you even bothered to post this twaddle is beyond me for all that you have revealed is your own backwardness.
No offence intended but I think anyone who goes on the attack like you do could be mentally unbalanced which tends to make me think your position may be as much of an emotional one as anything else. Go play golf, take a walk in the sunshine, breathe deeply, tell someone you love them.
Oh, so now you're a psychiatrist along with everything else. Spare me your pinchbeck advice and start reading about physics, biology and mathematics--and I don't mean from some ignorant creationist website. Offense intended.
Pardon me, but you are quite crazy yourself,
I'm certainly impressed that you even knew that Scientific American article from 1979 even existed! Or could quote it so exactly!
As for me, I’m nowhere near smart enough to work out the maths, either, but I did notice the qualifiers in that sentence you quoted. "... IF chance combinations of its molecules were the ONLY driving force.."
And your logical fallacy:
"... IF it’s not random chance then it MUST be design..."
But you forgot to mention all the other forces besides design that it COULD be.
"IF it's not A it MIGHT be B or C or D or E..."
Gosh, I'm no simpleton, but even I saw that one.
dont worry, the only way these people know about these articles is from creationist websites the quote mine them for ammo. however since these tactics are used over and over they are easy to respond to.
What are the "other forces" besides design?
Not my field of study.
I was pointing out the logical fallacy in your statement. ("If not A then must be B" does not account for C, D etc.)
I'm sure if your research skills are good enough to locate a 33-year-old article in Scientific American, you could easily follow up on scientific thought in this matter. Surely some progress has been made in three decades.
But if you don't care about scientific thought or evidence, and wish to draw a conclusion based on faith, that's your personal decision.
But do follow Achems' and Epicurus' links--they are always interesting!
=)
Why even think of random chance, another universe of the identical volume of space could be as close as a double exponential function of -10^10^115 meters away from us. And there is many more 10^500 universes.
Check also "anthropic principle"...multiverse
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse
How did this other universe begin?
Just out of curiosity, because you actually quoted a Scientific American article, did you read the article yourself, or was that a quote you pulled off a creationist website, as Epicurus suggested?
On a serious note, do you really think that undermining science education by inserting a religious belief into the science curriculum is beneficial to future generations?
Do you think that removing critical thinking skills from the classroom is the best way to train young minds to pursue science?
My understanding of the aims of the ID movement is that they are concerned about morality, which is a good thing. But I question their approach, and their deeper motives, and wonder why they have chosen this battleground.
What are *your* motives?
What do *you* think about future generations and their education?
What do you think teaching ID, a faith-based concept, as if it were fact-based will teach kids about how to solve fact-based problems?
Will it help them or cripple their efforts?
Do you even think about the long-term effect that this effort will have on our society? I have, and I am very concerned, indeed.
@dtlumley The scientific community does not like any thing that challenges their beliefs. They are to invested in them and don't want to submit to a God that challenges their moral beliefs.
First, prove that there is a god. Second, prove that he has anything to do with moral beliefs. Third, prove that you know what you're talking about.
Dale Lumley
you started your post with "@dtlumley" with the similarity to your screen name i have to ask . are you talking to yourself? moving on you state "The scientific community does not like any thing that challenges their beliefs." what? almost every move forward required scientists to challenge and ultimately alter what they held as true. Darwin,Einstein,Galileo,Hawking, and so on all presented idea that challenged the status quo but the sheer weight of evidence forced any objective scientist to go where the evidence leads them instead of the tactics of the ID community that either lie,misrepresent or ignore evidence that does not go where they want it to .
is this a joke? are you joking?
i cant tell if religious beliefs are serious or just sarcasm most of the time...
1h 30m 40s mark:-
"....It could be that at some earlier time somewhere in the universe a civilisation evolved, by probably some kind of Darwinian means, to a very high level of technology and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet...." - The mighty Richard Dawkins.
That settles it then.
Completely out of context. You are a cheat.
that was after ben stein said IF intelligent design could happen, what would be one way you could see it happening.
and upon being forced to come up with a scenario he came up with a great one....a civilisation EVOLVED...and he said perhaps they seeded a life form.
you are grasping for straws.
No, he's not. He's lying and cheating.
Clutching at straws...you think?
Do you really think it's a "GREAT" scenario?
Because no matter what context I put that scenario of the mighty Richard Dawkins in, it still sounded idiotic to me.
Sorry, guess I'm just one of those dumb individuals who looks at the odds of the heavens and the earth just happening like this by random fluke chance and doesn't think it's a rational scenario.
No, you're one of those dumb and dishonest individuals who knows absolutely nothing about physics, biology and mathematics.
you look at the odds do you? okay can you explain to me the variables and the math you used to calculate those odds.
the odds are actually 1/1 it MUST have happened. given the physics of the universe it couldnt have happened any other way. yay determinism.
do you really think you are prepared to argue against science?
Like most religees, he seems to think so.
A very fine documentary. Some very important and relevant questions were brought out that we would benefit from considering.
Pamela McCarty
and what questions would that be?
How did the heavens and earth get started that's a pretty good place to start. The mighty Richard Dawkins says "Very Slowly." I found that quite scientific and helpful.
You said "I found that quite scientific and helpful." That proves how much you admire Richard Dawkins and agree with him.
Does it? Oh OK thanks for that.
if you have just one of those questions i would be more than happy to answer it.
"wouldn’t you think Stein should interview people working in the scientific community at the time about this issue? If this persecution of dissidents was happening I would think he’d go and talk to people still working in the field and cite his examples for scrutiny. This never happens."
Somewhere between 14:45 to 15:30 mins in the documentary Stein DID interview scientists with dissenting views who were currently working- all were disguised for fear of losing their jobs...
Good documentary, didn't push the Gospel of Christ and have and extremely anti-theist view. I would say this greatly devalued Dawkins credit and esteem for me, as he quoted in the movie, he [Dawkins] REFUSES to acknowledge any Being or Deity responsible for the universe and Humanity yet is a proponent of the possibility of an advanced race of being who created man and we might be able to find tracks from their work in DNA, yet they were bound by darwinianism laws and naturally even the creators of man ultimately followed the same darwinian evolutionary laws and principles as the rest of the universe...Do you see Dawkins dilemma here? He claims we cannot refute darwinian evolution so to do and accept a designer would mean a highly advanced civilization must have done so ultimately never answering the question of where did Life and all existence come from...a question that takes the one thing Dawkins and the like lack, Faith. Faith is the only explanation that before everything, the amino acids, the inorganic material, the galaxies and stars, it was a Being that brought everything about. Dawkins doesnt give the possibility of such a means of existence an iota of credibility instead proposes an even more far-fetched idea of other races of beings creating man, or as his fellow scientists, crystals were the cause, thus instead of choosing the most simple answer, he chooses to construct even more elaborate and preposterous ideas that require more faith than accepting the principles of Intelligent Design. As one of mankind's greatest scientist of all time, adamant believer in God and Intelligent Design, Christian, Scientists, Mathematician quotes: Truth is ever to be found in simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things.It is the perfection of God's works that they are all done with the greatest simplicity. He is the God of order and not of confusion
"The most beautiful system of the Sun, Planets and Comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent being. All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God."
-Isaac Newton
Ben Stein in all his idiocy asked Dr. Dawkins for what he would consider an interesting scenario which he gave. He did not state that he believed it. So like a typical creationist, you distort as much as the documentary.
Like so many of your ilk, you confuse evolution with abiogenesis. Because at this moment science cannot answer this question does not imply by default that a "being that brought everything about" and it's a sign of wilful ignorance to posit this.
And no, faith is not the only explanation. It's simply a stop gap and a poor one at that. Dr. Dawkins doesn't give faith or intelligent design any credibility because they are not science and they deserve none.
P.S. Quote mining proves nothing.
great documentary!
"If this persecution of dissidents was happening I would think he would go and talk to people still working in the field and cite his examples for scrutiny? This never happens."
Really? Because you expect what... an objective, unbiased answer from people who want to lose their jobs, tenure and grants as well????
This takes me back to the measurement problem in quantum mechanics
I would like to approach this discussion from a different angle to hopefully keep from going round and round...
It has been established that science cannot prove or disprove the existence of an IDer, therefore, an atheist scientist and a religious scientist can come to the table of science with their opposing metaphysics and do credible and good science.
The differences between the two scientists is their interpretation of the "big picture." The atheist scientist will say, "Isn't the universe amazing and complex?" On the other hand, the religious scientist will say, "Isn't God/Allah/etc. amazing and complex?" when looking at the same result. The difference isn't in the result of the scientific research itself but in the origination/originator of the result's mode of operation.
The argument then lies in the fact that the atheist is allowed and encouraged to say "above statement" but the religious scientist is not allowed to say "above statement"
The question then is why is it acceptable to come to the table of science with the assumption that an IDer does not exist but unacceptable to do so under the assumption that one does exist, even though neither is proven?
Would it be acceptable if the religious scientist states in his work, "I believe that (insert diety) has designed X to behave Y. This does not take away from the fact that X's behavioral process is Y correct? The researcher just comes the same scientific conclusion with a personal metaphysical presupposition. An atheist can approach the same finding that X's behavioral process is Y by stating "I believe that (insert origin theory) has caused X to behave Y"
Why is one presupposition allowed, while the other is not?
There is no such thing as a religious scientist just as there is no such thing as an atheistic one. Science exists independent of religion, independent of atheism or whatever ideology, and anyone who crosses the line is a traitor.
@WesB
you asked "Why is one presupposition allowed, while the other is not?" because while they both agree on the complexity of the universe the ID supporter is adding an unproven claim to the results (god). the atheist would be just as wrong to claim that this complexity was definitely not caused by a god. when you add an unproven claim to a result you are being dishonest. please answer me this why is it so important to you to include a non scientific (supernatural)creator within science?
You know, Dr. Dawkins has asked precisely the same thing. So you're in good company.
@robertallen1
my response to the company of whom i share my ideas is only this.
"we are like dwarfs on the shoulders of giants, so that we can see more than they, and things at a greater distance, not by virtue of any sharpness of sight on our part, or any physical distinction, but because we are carried high and raised up by their giant size."
Bernard of Chartres
for me Dawkins is one of those giants
Don't you wish that the rest of the world thought so as well?
Also, don't you find Dr. Dawkins to be a better speaker than a writer? Were you able to get through "The Selfish Gene?"
@robertallen1
to be blunt yes yes and yes(long time ago).
I think the problem with Dr. Dawkins scientific writings is that he doesn't seem to have it firmly in his mind what type of a readership he is writing for. "The Ancestor's Tale" is an example of this. Your thoughts?
@robertallen1
i have not read "The Ancestor's Tale" and even tho i do respect Dawkins very much his exposure in debates,documentaries and interviews allows me to keep up with his views more quickly. even tho books tend to go into more detail i use my reading time for authors that are not as available in other forms. is my use of tho correct or am i being lazy?
p.s the creationists is next on my list (next couple of weeks( and will let you know my thoughts
You are being lazy--even though or although or if you want to be bookish, albeit.
I've been giving your linguistic analogy some thought. (Without meaning to sound too self-aggrandizing, I pondered the same thing several years ago and gave up as I didn't like my results.) Perhaps if the analogyt were approached from the standpoint of a single word or series of etymologically related words, it might work. Your thoughts?
P.S. Please make sure you have the 2005 edition of "The Creationists" and not the earlier which was published before Kitzmiller.
@robertallen1
the analogy wasn't an original idea. the way i poorly expressed it was. i usually reread-my posts before and after posting and i almost deleted it prior to your reply. my knowledge of this analogy comes from letters between Darwin and Asa Gray discussing a book recently published (at the time) by Max Muller titled " Lectures on the Science of Language, " while they appeared to like the idea they differed on the books value. Darwin apparently didn't like Muller's bowing to the churches 6000 yo timeline and the towers of babel references. but Darwin's brother in law (Hensleigh Wedgewood) did write a book as a result of these discussions titled "on the origins of language" and if you ignore the apparent cashing in of fame title Darwin apparently liked it. i have not read it but i found a link to a free online copy if interested
Thanks. I'll check it out.
Let me revise my initial idea a bit. Suppose we started out with a common morpheme, "gens," meaning people, a stem which appears in myriad words, and tried to use that stem as a model analogous to a phylogenetic stem.
Another idea, instead of dealing with one language, how about whole families (or trees) of languages, dead and living. Maybe that's an even better analogue of the phylogenetic tree. Your thoughts?
P.S. Now that I think of it, there seem to be similarities between biologic reproduction and linguistic reproduction. The problem is redefine the concept of survival of the fit to fit linguistics.
@over the edge
That is an excellent question and the answer for myself is that it really isn't important when it comes to presenting results. It is desired for one to hold onto their own presuppositions of origination while leaving them out of the findings. I think that where the Creationists get upset is that scientists who adhere to an atheistic mode of reality can typically say whatever they want to a scientist who has an ID view. Whereas the former will most likely be ridiculed and ostracized by the later for speaking about their view. Thus the premise of Expelled. Furthermore, for this reason Creationists feel threatened because in today's scientific community it is more acceptable to hold to the view that a creator does not exist than does. So, in a perfect world, neither side should bring their presuppositions to their research but that is not the reality.
So then how should the scientific community proceed? Should they alter the reality and say, "No more talking about the existence or non-existence of a god," or should they deem it permissible to do so equally for both sides?
You're right. Presuppositions must be left out of science.
Creationists should feel threatened for trying to pass the non-scientific off as scientific and in the process distort, misrepresent and out-and-out lie.
As there is no way to discuss the existence or non-existence of a god scientifically, your last question answers itself.
@WesB
the personal views of scientists is no more controllable than the personal views of anybody else. there are many scientists that are religious Ken miller is a great example among many that i highly respect. but his religion does not enter the classroom or his research. his results do not mention god one way or the other. take someone from the other side. Dawkins has strong opinions concerning religon and has said so in debates,books,documentaries and elsewhere. but read his scientific papers or his contributions to textbooks. nowhere in these areas does his personal view of religion enter the text. god does not have a place in science period. it is not science by definition and even if it was the classroom is not the starting point for an unproven hypothesis.
Over The Edge...it's a bit unfair to expect me to know how Scientists should go about testing the possibility of an original creator because I'm not a scientist. It's as unfair as expecting me to be able to advise Scientists on how to find the cause for Action-At-A-Distance. Such "spooky" behavior of sub atomic particles is beyond the comprehension of scientists let alone me to advise them on it. But I do have confidence that scientists will figure out this spooky phenomenon we call Action-At-A-Distance. And I am confident that scientists will figure out this idea of an original creator as well...if they honestly try.
That said, I find it reasonable to use the concept of intelligent designer "fingerprints" as one possible method for examining the idea of an original creator (hear me out on this). I'm NOT talking about this six day creation stuff though. Just honest scientists using the hypothesis that if there is an original creator then it's fair to reason that the original creator was intelligent (testing an hypothesis that "a creator is intelligent" is possible) and that the intelligence of the creator could be manifested in the artistry of our universe (testing an hypothesis that "a creator leaves evidence of their intelligence in what they create" is possible) and that finding this intelligence manifested in the artistry of our universe is possible evidence of a creator of our universe (because applying the methods for "how to find evidence of a creators intelligence manifested in the artistry of a test subject creators creation" to our universe is possible).
I suspect that with the context of an original creator our universe will show the observer what the observer sets out to find. Scientific research using Methodological Naturalism has set out to find that there are natural causes for nature and that is what it has found out (there are natural causes for nature). It hasn't really looked for an original creator to rightfully claim that there is none. But now that we have established that there are natural causes for nature we can safely look for evidence of an original creator and not worry that nature doesn't have natural causes. And I suspect we will find that there IS evidence of an original creator and that there IS still natural causes for nature. We could even end up seeing Science proving that the legendary "god" being of religious history does not exist and yet at the same time proving that an original creator "god" being does exist...leaving us feeling the similar sensation one gets after examining Action-At-A-Distance with our limited under-standing it.
Currently we've barely scratched the surface on the topic that there isn't an original creator (we're just claiming since we found what we were looking for...natural causes for nature...there can't be ANY other causes...and that is not good science and borderlines arrogance). But who knows, perhaps by honestly looking for evidence of an original creator, using agreed upon scientific methods, science might find that there really just is no original creator AND can without controversy claim "And our research into the possibility of an original creator proves it." This would seal the deal for all Deism/Theism claims that go against the Atheist claims of Methodological Naturalism.
And if it goes the other way and Science finds methods that prove that there is an original creator "god" being then it wouldn't be hard to sort out the details of creation stories and "spooky" medicine. Because we could simply adapt and adjust the scientific methods we used to prove there is an original creator to creation stories and "spooky" medicine (if we have figured out how to observe and test that which was traditionally called the "Divine" then I'm sure we can observe and test less challenging phenomena).
The one thing that would probably need to be open to challenge with pursuing scientific research into the possibility of an original creator is Atheism ideology. If ones Atheism is currently embraced due to their interpretation that Atheism is science, and if science shows Atheism to be a non-scientific choice then letting go of one's Atheism...because Atheism is not longer "scientific"...should not be an issue (the person was going with science over atheism anyways). But if ones Atheism is a personal choice and that person has been using science to support that choice, and then science shows that an original creator exists, this could be quite troubling for a person who doesn't want to let go of their Atheism and yet remain scientific (forcing one to choose either science or atheism). And this is a real possibility if we go about using science to research the possibility of an original creator (and actually find that there is/was one). The current Scientific community is predominately Atheist. And a good number of Scientists (and their fans) are Anti-Theist. Anti-Theism is not Atheism and neither is it a scientific position. So if science proves there is an original creator one can still maintain their Anti-Theism (although not because it's "dumb to believe in a creator"). But the vast amount of scientists would have to let go of their Atheism or no longer be considered scientists. If the vast of majority of today's scientists are not willing to let go of their Atheism if science research finds there is an original creator then I don't blame them in the least for not wanting to go researching if there is an original creator (as unscientific as that attitude is scientists are people and people are not 100% rational). But I would hope that when it comes down to researching the possibility of an original creator Science is not being held back by Atheism. And I sincerely hope that the majority of "Atheists" in the Scientific community are not refusing to scientifically examine the possibility of an original creator because they don't want to deviate from Methodological Naturalisms atheism for personal reasons (like say Anti-Theism). Methodological Naturalism is not Anti-Theism. And the "Atheism" inherent in Methodological Naturalism is not Anti-Theism. The Atheism in Methodological Naturalism is just a necessary assumption to better enable a more focused look at finding natural causes for nature....which we have found. Now that we know so much about our natural world let's try a different assumption...that there IS a creator...and see what we can find. Let's be scientific about it. We're going to have to create a different philosophical approaches than strict Methodological Naturalism. But let's include Methodological Naturalism (except for it's Atheism assumption of course) so we don't go off the deep end and miss finding those natural causes. Sure a lot of this will probably just be philosophy at the start. But let's do it! All we have to lose is...well just Atheism actually. Is that so bad?
" . . . let's try a different assumption. . . that there IS a creator..." Science does not work from assumptions just as it does not work from the supernatural and its standards are not going to be bent to suit you and others like you.
Your sense of the "artistry of the universe" has as much validity as the concepts of intelligent design and a well-ordered universe and like them is so vague and subjective as to fly in the face of scientific inquiry.
Theism and conversely atheism have no place in science and as your project involves the assumption of a creator (a theistic device), there is no way to conduct a scientific investigation unless the standards are lowered--and as previously indicated, they won't be.
All who have tried to look into the existence of an original supernatural creator "scientifically" (I suggest you read "The Creationists" by Ronald L. Numbers") have failed for the simple reason that given the standards of mainstream science (which is the only science that counts) such an endeavor is doomed to futility and failure.
In short, your idea is impossible to pursue and is not worth writing walls of text around.
@TopDocRocks
you treat this idea as expanding science when it is actually going against EVERYTHING science stands for. i am going to be blunt please don't mistake it as a personal attack. one of the most important tenants in science is it's ability to prove itself wrong. it is completely impossible to prove that a creator doesn't exist so therefore the idea cannot be tested scientifically. please stop tying atheism to science and misrepresenting what it means to be an atheist. many great scientists are and were religious and many atheists don't know the first thing about science.atheism is a lack of belief in a god or gods. nowhere in that definition does atheism claim a god doesn't exist. science on the other hand doesn't concern itself with god as it is outside of the parameters of science. without falsifiability your proposal can only have two outcomes either a creator exists or that the evidence hasn't been found. there is no option to prove that one doesn't exist and without this critical third option cannot be tested. well your post was well written and on the surface sounds fair when you look deeper what you propose is destroying the one organization that while not disproving god does show that a god is not needed to explain the world around us.and again there is a large percentage of the population that supports a creator,many organizations that have huge amounts of power and money that support creation. science doesn't support it. why is it up to science to prove something outside of its concern and not up to those who's concern it is? they have the money and ability to do these tests. they can use any methodology they wish and they have tried for thousands of years without bringing anything to science that can be tested that hasn't been dismissed because more evidence points to another cause. science is the only discipline that religion(yes id is religious) hasn't been able to influence and the religious are angry that there is something they cannot control. these ID organizations (maybe not you personally) aren't interested in expanding knowledge they wish to stifle it. they lie (see earlier post on the supposed expelled) you will never see an id protest against gravity,or the theory of relativity or nuclear theory because these don't challenge their personal beliefs. they will attack evolution, big bang and abiogenesis not because they are false but because it goes against what they already believe (or they assume it does). they don't want education they want indoctrination. they don't want to play fair they want to win. ID is creationism and creationism is religion. they use the same books and are supported by the same organizations. now they claim to be discriminated against. no. they aren't qualified and refuse to follow the rules. science works perfectly well and became really effective when religious bias was removed. when science was dominated by religion the results were great for religion and bad for science (and scientists) why should we return to those times?
Once again, well done. However, you don't owe anyone an apology nor should you feel that you have to mince words or pull punches nor should you worry about giving offense. If some take umbrage at the way you express yourself or treat the matter at hand, that's their problem and the worst thing you can do is make it yours, especially in light of your knowledge and enthusiam towards your subject.
@robertallen1
while i agree i am finding that the focus is becoming more about how i post than what i post. so i have tried to remove this option as it sometimes hijacks the discussion. i applaud the fact that you pull no punches and your linguistic abilities far exceed mine. as i have stated before i don't care how i am spoken (or posted) to as long as the person speaking can back up assertions. why do people acknowledge the anger/assessment without acknowledging the possible justification/correctness for the anger/assessment?
And your scientific knowledge far exceeds mine. With respect to the rest of your post, let me quote Epicurus to Addalled.
"This is the problem with people like you. You don't have the slightest understanding of science yet you think you know better than the people who do." How many people who've posted on this site do you think applies to? In other words, your anger is well justified and don't be gulled into thinking that you have to apologize for it.
I on the other hand, think TopDocRocks has been civil all along, why wouldn't you be too. He will remember and consider your answer much more than if you called him names and answered in an agressive way.
I agree don't appologize, just state what you have to say about something not against someone.
But you know that already...not every one does!
az.
At least TopDocRocks doesn't claim knowledge he doesn't have. Therefore, he has received civil answers. The others, forget about. As Epicurus wrote to Addalled, "This is the problem with people like you. You don't have the slightest understanding of science yet you thinnk you know better than the people who do." In my book, these people deserve no respect and deserve being treated with scorn and derisiion.
P.S. By apologize, I also meant to you.
Robertallen1...I don't feel that ANY research has been done into the possibility of an original creator. And I don't blame the Methodological Naturalist community (Scientists) for not doing their research into this possibility. Methodological Naturalism has purposefully limited its scope to the natural world only. And by its dogmatical approach has rejected anything it considered non-natural. This is its greatest strength. With such a closed minded (to the non-natural) approach to examining the natural world Methodological Naturalism has consistently shown over and over that the natural world we live in is not run by magic, angels, demons, or some "god" being.
But this strength is also its weakness. For despite all we know about the natural world through Methodological Naturalism, it offers us no answers to that which has traditionally been understood as non-natural. Methodological Naturalism has specifically chosen to ignore the non-natural. And so, Methodological Naturalism auto-disqualifies itself from offering any informed opinion on the non-natural. Methodological Naturalism cannot claim an original creator does not exist because Methodological Naturalism has not researched if an original creator exists or not. Methodological Naturalism can only claim that with all its investigations into the natural world it has not found a "god" being that exists in the natural world. I've always suspected that the original creator wasn't a natural part of our world (matter). And I'm glad that Methodological Naturalism has discovered this. But just because a "god" being does not exist in the natural world does not mean there is no such "god" being in existence period (or that there is no non-natural). And that's a reasonable position.
Because with all we know now about The Big Bang, Black Holes, Dark Flow, Time, Space, SpaceTime, Light, Particlewaves, Multiple Universes, Multiple Dimensions, Strings, Action-At-A-Distance, Quantum Mechanics, and what there was before the singularity (which currently isn't much but hey) there is no need to blindly claim that the what has been classically understood as non-natural just does not existent at all. The classically understood non-natural could be some "part" of nature that we just don't understand yet. We know that the Natural World can appear more non-natural than what has been traditionally considered non-natural (take Action-At-A-Distance for an example).
My concern is that due to the religious politics of Intelligent Design theory, actual Methodological Naturalism (Scientific) investigation into the possibility of an original creator is not happening. Yes I know that by looking into the possibility of an original creator Methodological Naturalism may need to re-examine and expand some of its current paradigms. But this is nothing new (take quantum mechanics for example).
But from what I see in attitudes and opinions of people I encounter here on topdocumentaryfilms I'm not encouraged to believe that this investigation is going to happen any time soon because the legitimate topic of an original designer is wrongfully suspected and attacked as Six Day Creationist agenda. There is a huge difference between evangelical six day creationist agenda and the possibility of an original creator. The existence of an original creator doesn't mean six day creationism is right or that evangelicalism is right or that any religion is right for that matter.
My thoughts are that if there is an original creator than the more we examine what the original creator created (this does NOT mean accepting Six Day Creationism) sooner or later we are bound to encounter the original creator (wherever he/she/it/they are right "now"). And that this encountering can happen THROUGH Methodological Naturalism. This is quite exciting. And really has nothing to do with religion [because if there is a creator/god and humans encounter her/him/them/it there is no faith involved or belief needed or self righteous rules required...there is just amazing experience...quite different than religion actually].
Now I could be wrong. And I'd be glad to be wrong. If there is or has been Methodological Naturalism investigation into the possibility of an original creator please point it out to me. I mean, is there or has there been scientific research into the possible existence of an original creator that I am perhaps not aware of? If not than my concern that this research isn't happening is not uninformed.
And I desire this research to happen. And I desire it to happen free from repression, free from persecution, and free from "expel" tactics. And free from anger and antagonism at ID politics misdirected to the inquiry and researching of an original creator possibility and those pursuing this research and inquiry.
Fine, then do it on your own. Don't bother science departments with it.
Also, you must first prove that the non-natural exists and defining it into existence will not help. If you cannot prove that the non-natural exists, you cannot research it.
P.S. If you have to change the parameters of science to "prove" the existence of the non-natural, then you are no longer practicing science.
@TopDocRocks
lets say we forget that a creator would have to exist within the supernatural and the laws of physics would have to be suspended in order for him/her/it to exist. in order for science to investigate something a hypothesis would have to be formed and tests done that can be observed ,repeated and demonstrated. how would you test for this? i am not trying to be smart i really cannot think of any test that would be valid. also the idea of a creator has been around for a long time and philosophers, religious scholars and others have tried to find/show evidence to no avail. scientists who are also proponents of a creator have tried and many have used their understanding of science to do so (behe comes to mind) and failed. the scientific method is open to all to use. now don't confuse that with every idea needs to be included into science. but some of the most powerful ans richest organizations on the planet believe in a creator and they are free to spend their money to try to prove anything they wish and use the scientific method if they wish. but demanding that science change what has proven to be the best way to the truth in order to accommodate something that is not science would destroy the very processes that make science such a great approach to gathering the truth. if science is forced to include Id do we then teach all the various creation stories? do we teach homeopathy, acupuncture,faith healing, Aromatherapy,Folk remedies,Magnetic therapy,,Reflexology and on and on to medical students? or the thousands of other pseudosciences that can at least be tested and observed. if not why not? if so you can kiss scientific discovery goodbye
I'm glad that you Robertallen1 would not try to repress, persecute, or stop my inquiry...as long as I was asking about what Research has been done into the possibility of an original creator. But Robertallen1, what if I discover that there hasn't been enough research done on the possibility of an original creator? And I decide I want to try and encourage and expand and grow this research? Would you repress, persecute, or stop my attempts at inquiry into what evidence there is within Naturalism (Methodological, Metaphysical, or even Religious Naturalism) for the possibility of an original creator? It seems your statement "Freedom of inquiry has nothing to do with it" is only true if I or someone else refrains from actually trying to inquiry/research the possibility of evidence found via Naturalism of an original creator. I hope I'm wrong. I truly want there to be "Freedom of inquiry" (without repression, persecution, or "expelling").
If you feel that not enough research has been done into the possibility of an original creator, there is nothing to stop you from doing it on your own (read freedom of inquiry), but don't expect the science department of an institute of higher learning to tolerate what is clearly not science or even scholarship.
Robertallen1...you claim "Freedom of inquiry has nothing to do with it." But let me ask you something: If I wanted to inquire about the research of Methodological Naturalism into possible evidence in nature of an original creator (or lack of such research) would you repress my inquiry? Or persecute me for my inquiry? Or try to get me to stop my inquiry (a tactic of "expelling")? Or would you be consistent with your statement "Freedom of inquiry has nothing to do with it" and let me inquire to my hearts content (free of repression, free from persecution, and free from "expelling")?
If you mean writing about the research conducted, no. For that falls under research (read intellectual freedom) just as writing about Creationism (a la Ronald L. Numbers) does or about the influence of the religious right on modern politics. It's non-scientific espousal which causes the problems and hence the much-deserved expulsions.
@TopDocRocks
lets look at the expelled
Richard Sternberg |he published an article that previously failed peer review and refused to list the names he used for his peer review, he claimed that he was told that he had to give up his office and turn in his keys but fails to mention that everybody at the time was asked the same thing as the offices were moving.
Guillermo Gonzalez claims that his tenure was denied because of his views but neglects to mention that 60% of those in his department are refused tenure and in this highly competitive market he did not bring grants into the university and did not publish enough.
Caroline Crocker was not fired her non tenure position it expired and she was not brought back (not unusual) as for her being blacklisted after her "blacklisting" she continued to teach at Northern Virginia Community College then at Uniformed Services University, now she found her niche she is executive director of the Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness center.
Robert Marks claims that his website was shut down after mentioning intelligent design. when in truth it was the universities site and he would have been allowed to keep it going if he placed a disclaimer on all articles stating that this is not the view of the university and he still works there
Pamela Winnick claims she was fired for just writing about intelligent design and then blacklisted. but she fails to mention that her articles were biased and even then she continued to publish in the paper mentioned and others
Michael Egnor claims that he was viciously attacked for his views expressed in a article he wrote on medicine and evolution. he fails to mention that the article in question was only open to " high school students" and even then his was not up to the standards. his claim of being shocked by the “viciousness” and “baseness” of the response. forgets to mention that this was an online essay contest . apparently he has never been on the internet before if he didn't ezpect some to be rude
finally "Freedom of inquiry " does not grant you the right to say or do anything you want especially if you are paid to represent someone else. if these or any other persons wish to spend their own money,facilities and time looking into intelligent design then they are welcome to. here is an experiment for you go to work do what ever you want ignore all warnings and discipline and see how long before you are "expelled"
Robertallen1 and Over The Edge you have given your answer and you have demonstrated it too. Thank You!
I sadly do need to worry that those wanting to try and use scientific methods to look for evidence of a "Supernatural" Intelligent Designer (despite trying to use scientific methods to do so) will be repressed will be persecuted and will be expelled from schools for trying to.
And here I thought this documentary was just hype.
I guess despite the "propaganda" of this documentary, "freedom of inquiry might not be so free" afterall.
=(
Because science is based on natural explanations, there is no way to look for evidence of a supernatural intelligent designer (a religious concept) using scientific methods and those who bring this into the science classroom are no longer scientists and deserve expulsion.
Freedom of inquiry has nothing to do with it.
We can't prove there is no Santa either, does that mean Santa could actually exist? if the fact that science cannot prove the existence or non-existence of god is your only argument, then you have no argument at all.
god is simply a being made up to explain the existence of what our minds could not comprehend, now we have science and understanding. Some people just cannot face the fact that we are all mortal, we will all die and infinite darkness will be our existence.
We will have no thought's, no memory, Nothing. we will cease to exist. If people try and tell you otherwise they are either deluded or what your money.
It's really about time we put this fing crazy ass b.s. where it belongs. It's very simple...We go with what we have evidence for. There is absolutely zero evidence for anything supernatural....fear of death is the rub...anyone who says different is either delusional, lying, or has a hidden agenda...such as Money, Power, right down to the smallest church pastor who gets food to eat and has a few people looking up to him/her. Get it?? Spread the word fervently
@Raf Fak and AUWR: So since this doc is just "loud and ignorant America" and Ben is "pathetic" and "has no journalistic integrity" I can relax and not need to worry that those wanting to try and use science to explore the possibility of Intelligent Design are being repressed, being persecuted, and being expelled from schools for trying to?
There is no scientific way to "explore the possibility of intelligent design" for two of three of the elements of science are sorely lacking: hard and fast evidence, naturalistic explanation and repeatability. Thus, it is a religious or philosophical concept, not a scientifone. Hence, anyone teaching such non-science (and nonsense) in a science class deserves to be expelled from his position, as he is a traitor to his supposed profession. And yes, Ben Stein is pathetic and, especially in light of his "interview" with Dr. Dawkins, has no journalistic integrity, much less intelligence.
@TopDocRocks
you stated "those wanting to try and use science to explore the possibility of Intelligent Design are being repressed, being persecuted, and being expelled from schools for trying to?"lets break this down shall we science cannot be used to explore intelligent design. you see science deals with the natural world and id is supernatural and therefore not science. the vast majority of scientists say so, the courts say so and you even showed your belief in theism in your other post so you say so. watch " ben steins flunked no intelligence applied" right here at tdf to see the complete lack of credibility that this doc has. i will not go into detail (i have done here many tines before) but even if id was scientific (and it isn't) the classroom is not the starting point for new ideas.form a hypothesis and go through the trials that demands, upgrade to theory and the trials that demands,have it peer reviewed (honestly) . show that it isn't in conflict with existing facts and gain acceptance from a significant number of scientists in relevant fields. then and only then should it be presented to school children. that the problem id and its predecessor creationism can't pass the tests so they try to get in the back door. you don't want a level playing field you want special treatment.
This sadly is the loud and ignorant America. Ben Stein, just pathetic.
Ben is a tool. No journalistic integrity.
For someone to state ,in so many words, that morality comes from religion is not only rediculous and obsurd but is highly offensive.
Morality didnt come from religion it preceeded it. Without knowing not to imbreed, not to harm your fellow human, not to take from but share with eachother were all things that without we wouldnt be here. There was a time when we were down to a few thousand hunans. Long before these religions started popping up claiming ownership on morality. In this time period those humans more prone to doing these things were the ones to have children. In turn were also more inclined to do so and so on. As well as the fact that anything harmful being done was surely looked upon as harmful and was dealt with accordingly. The punishment idea for wrongful acts isnt a part of religious construct but these things were known then. Even pack animals and herd animals do these things.
Now to state that morality is of religion only implies that us nontheists are subject to living an immoral life without your cults doctrine. Thats offensive in many ways. How dare you imply that i am not a moral person because of my lack of believing that your txts are from a supreme being. Or for not believing that the laws of physics momentarily suspended themselves so that jesux could walk on water, given he even existed. I live morally sound because its the right thing to do and us beneficial to not only myself but to those around me. Shame on you.
ben stein is a clueless pod.
Freedom huh? You mean like the Europeans showed the native Americans or African slaves... Ben stein is such an id**t... it is impossible to even sit through this. ID is not a movement. It's magic, aka nonsense/
It is not that there may not be some kind of creator but that there is no need to postulate one because it adds nothing to our knowledge. Teaches us that not knowing is a form of knowledge.. and simply begs the question on an even more complex god's own genesis.
(And Michael shermer cannot possibly be as skeptical as he imagines if he cant see that the evidence overwhelmingly proves that wtc 1 2 & 7 were brought down with explosives : ajl.smugmug com/911
Done! nice to have an in-house tutor. Thanks
@ Achems_Razor and robertallen1
Too much to respond to on a forum. First, I would have love to discuss this in person. I am able to respond further to each of the rebuttals you have posted, but this comment based discussion really isn't the ideal setting. 2nd, by the increase in the condescending tone of your responses, I can see this conversation is becoming more than what I had intended. Well it was great discusing with you both. Your responses were enlightening. I only hope the same were true of mine. Thank you Gentlemen
@Tyler Cook:
Yes, no problem, religious do seem to have a hard time to refute science. So, another one bites the dust!
No its not that, i could respond to your replies. its just hard to do so in this setting and i dont really have the time to sit down and clearly explain what I am trying to say (I have 2 major tests tomorrow and I need to study). Also, please if you hear only one thing i say, please dont think i was trying to disprove science with religion. That is not possible. They serve 2 different purposes. I never was attempting to do so. I enjoy science and find it fascinating. Science is not my enemy and neither are you. Now again, thank you for taking the time to debate with me.
@Tyler Cook:
Okay, do not take our discussions to heart, wish you the best with your exams!
And thank you for the cop out.
@Achems_Razor
I disagree. Religion is not in any way a means of control or economic gain. If you view it as such, then you are a hypocrite. Your hypocrisy is in that you call the religious narrow minded and ignorant, and yet you draw vast, inaccurately biased assumptions about religion as a whole . I cant argue about scientific means to existence because my knowledge on such things is limited, which i regretfully admit. As for our use of science to "garner more converts to strengthen their coffers and their hold on the masses", we must accept fact to be fact. What would you have us do? As our understanding of the world changes so most our understanding of our own religion. Our intentions, just as they have been for centuries, have been to spread our understanding of our purpose in life. Money and power are irrelevant to religion. Now, some people have warped religion but your accusations are not true of religion its self. I know that's arguing semantics to a degree because the people are what define the religion, but your accusations are only true of a small group among many. But corruption has warped everything at one time or another. When religion is as it should be, it is a means to give purpose and order to a world ruled by chaos. Without religion there is no moral code, no ethical guide line. The purpose of religion is not to convict the world, but to offer hope, love, peace and a means of salvation (depending on the religion). Religion is not perfect and shouldn't claim to be so. Religion revolves around the fact that we are imperfect and offers hope for redemption. You may disagree with me and you can ridicule me all you want, but the reality is we don't know the answer to our origin. It is not a question any single field of study can answer on its own. All theories we currently have on the origin of the universe are incomplete, which is why they are just theories; but they are talked about and taught are as though they are fact. The incomplete nature, whether you acknowledged it as such or not, is the center point of the conflict I mentioned. Not once did i ever say Science and religion were at conflict with one another. The conflict is between people with different world views. The reason that conflict exists is because scientists have attempted to enter the realm of theology but simultaneously refuse to acknowledge things of religion because these things are illogical. But it is only outside of the logic based limitations of science that the universe can be viewed in its entirety. Only by seeing the world beyond such limitations will we ever truly begin to understand our origin.
@Tyler Cook
i know that your comment was directed at Achems but i have a few observations/questions.
1 "Religion is not in any way a means of control or economic gain"
why then is there a hierarchy, places to gather the flock, tithes. and so on?
2 "Without religion there is no moral code, no ethical guide line" can you point me to the religion that originated moral codes and ethics? maybe a study that shows religious to be more moral (i have one that states the opposite) ?
3 "the reality is we don't know the answer to our origin" agreed but that doesn't mean religion is anywhere the most probable answer.
4 "origin of the universe are incomplete, which is why they are just theories" this statement always bothers me. do you know what it takes to reach the level of theory in science? a theory is the best answer we have at the time to a fact. gravity,nuclear,germ and so on are just theories that doesn't make the fact that these things exist any less true.
5 "these things are improvable by logic." finally something we agree on. please look into "Russels teapot"
1. Could you you explain what you mean by places to gather to flock?
- first, hierarchy is in place to give organization to the church. Before a hierarchy was put in place, it was easy for false teachers of the biblical doctrine to infiltrate the church. By establishing order, Christians had a safe place to gather together and fellowship with one another. Tithes go directly to the church not the pastor. The church is considered the body of Christ. The members of the church make up the church. The actual building is irrelevant. Tithes go directly to the church. These are to help with social projects the church is undertaking. Thins like funding for mission trips or outreach events. These also help pay for the upkeep of the physical church building. This also helps pay the staff of the church: pastor, worship minister, ect. because these individuals don't have other jobs, unless they are part time.
2. That statement i can honestly say was a bit ignorant of me to say. based on the belief that the universe began by God, this would be true. I don't really have any way other than the christian beliefs to prove this. I shouldn't have said it the way i did. Id love to see what you found if you could send me a link to it id love to take a look at it. Basically, my thought process was this. If we were to strip a way every religion from the face of human history what would we be left with. Well we would have humanity, but it would be in a state of chaos because we would lack a purpose. This is where most would disagree because religion is seen to be created by man. I cant really respond any further to that because well i dont know. In fact Im not sure anyone really knows for certain. But I do apologize for addressing it the way i did.
3. Yes, I absolutely agree with you, but i do think that we cant just rely on science to get us to a plausible conclusion. I do think it will play and has played a big part, but i do not think all responsibility rests on the shoulders of science. I think as i said earlier, I believe the answer to our origin will lie in the synthesis of theology, science, philosophy, mathematics, the arts, history ect.
4. Yes yes, i do understand. My main concern is that our acceptance of such things, we often forget their are gaps in the theories and these gaps are often over looked. I think that the full picture of the theory needs to be presented when being taught or discussed. the difference between those theories, and the big bang and Darwinian theories, is that they are observable. With those that i mentioned, we have evidence that points to them, but we cant actually observe it.
5. "Russels teapot" is an interesting concept. I have been challenged with this concept before. Ok, here's an attempt to explain, but before i do please don't let my explanation be a factor to determining you opinion of this. Im just a college student and am very limited in my knowledge of these things. Ok, Russel's argument, logically is good. But when dealing with God we cant allow our selves to attempt to fit God into the structure of our world. Typical christian cop out right? Ok ill keep going. The reason something like the existence of a god is different from the existence of a tea pot is, no one really cares if a tea pot is up there. Sure the concept is the same, but the difference between being wrong about the tea pot being there and being wrong about God are beyond astronomical. However, it is through my experiences i have had in my christian faith that i can, with 100% confidence tell you that there is something bigger out there. When viewing our existence through the eyes of religion, things just seem to make since. My question is if there is no God then why are we here? Why did the universe just happen? Whats the point of it? If there is no God why carry on? If there is no God why is everything so detailed and complex? The reason a God must exist is because it gives purpose to every element of our existence in the universe. With out it, our everything is empty. So, yeah the existence of a God my be some tale passed down through the ages, but as for me I would rather live my life with a deep purpose. Im sorry if that seemed to religious for you, but that is just my perspective. If you want to talk any more email me...(email censored no personal info allowed) Its really annoying to try to talk here. That goes for you too Achems_Razor if you want to continue our discussion.
I thought you were done, that you had to study for tests. Yet you apparently have time to assail us with another wall of blather. Quite frankly, I think you're a liar. However, I will touch on just a few points.
" . . . hierarchy is in place to give organization to the church." A hierarchy, especially a church hierarchy, is in place to ensure the church's own existence and self-perpetuation, resulting in the well-being and comfort of its members, nothing more. Your naivete is laughable.
"Before a hierarchy was put in place, it was easy for false teachers of the biblical doctrine to infiltrate the church." First, how do you discriminate between what is false doctrine and what is true? Because you are ignorant of history, it's probably escaped your notice that doctrine has varied through time and sect--or perhaps you're averring that those in the hierarchy are the only ones qualified to determine what is true and false doctrine or they wouldn't be in the hierarchy in the first place.
Tithes are no more than a form of extortion--and who pays them? It is all too often the poor who cannot afford to and who deprive themselves and their families of the necessities of life because in their ignorance they believe what drools from the mouths of the fat padres.
"However, it is through my experiences i have had in my christian faith that I can, with 100% confidence tell you that there is something bigger out there." Why should any rational, person believe you who has shown himself to be a liar and an ignoramus? But again, religees are not rational. "The reason a God must exist is because it gives purpose to every element of our existence in the universe. Without it, our everything is empty. So, yeah the existence of God may be some tale passed down through the ages, but as for me I would rather live my life with a deep purpose." In other words, like a baby who cannot live without his security blanket, you need a fairy tale to pacify you. If these last two statements epitomize the intellectual depth of your religion, your Christan faith sucks!
yeah I though this might give you that impression, sorry. I should have posted my long post first before telling y'all i was done. I just saw his response and decided i would be done after responding to him. Mainly, im just sick of discussing things in this manner (in a forum over a computer). I don't think its an efficient way of communicating and is definitely not a place to debate such sensitive topics. I promise i wasn't lying. Any way if you want to discuss more id appreciate it if you contacted me. But based on your response i can see your just looking to pick fights because you are arguing semantics from an objective and biased state of mind and Id much rather spend my time discussing more relevant issues other than your opinion of my competence and ability to explain topics to an unfathomably accurate degree. God damn me might i say something that does not fit your infinitesimally narrow perception of the world. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. Just like your arrogance because for some reason you think Im trying to convert you or something. This was a simple discussion. To see it as anything more is pure stupidity. So forgive me, but talking to you has been a huge waist of time. Respectfully, id ask that the next time you decide to get in a debate with someone you'd check your immaturity and bias at the door. You obviously have no respect for me and therefore this conversation is incapable of advancing any further. I am truly sorry your experience with religion has left such a sour taste in your mouth. Goodbye
You're right about that. I don't believe a person's beliefs should be respected just because he has them, especially when they are based on ignorance and misinformation such as yours. In short, I have no respect for you because you have nothing to respect.
Do you live under a bridge?
Do you live in a cave?
No. I live in a house. Why?
You certainly don't express yyourself with any class.
....and you do?!
Wow...
i expected that.
Certainly more literately that you do.
You expected that?
Wow, you must be smarter than me.
And more grammatical.
Is that why you wrote yyourself?
az
Does your community offer a course on debating? You would gain so much from attending. You have a knack at killing all good conversations.
az
You probably wouldn't learn much from a course in anything.
How do you know what he has to respect?
Robertallen1, you are a shite disturber on TDF, plain and simple. Good night, have nice dreams or nightmares.
az
Obviously, you never read his posts.
Did your parents have any children that didn't suck?
all of you should add me on skype. it is the same name as my name here.
I also wanted to say it is very refreshing to see a religious person argue and keep it civil. you would be a great person to discuss this stuff with in person.
Yeah I'd love to discuss further. Do you think we could continue our conversation on Thursday? I have a paper to finish up and 2 test to study for today and tomorrow. I appreciate you willingness to remain civil as well. Progress is only accomplished in a civil manner.
good luck on your paper and finals.
i just finished mine up last week. such a relief.
@Tyler Cook:
Your post is like Swiss cheese, riddled with holes.
"Money and power are irrelevant to religion"?? Say again?
Religion IS a means of control and monitory gain, as the late great Georges Carlin said "money, they just cant handle money, they always need more!"
And now, one of my favourites from you..."Without religion there is no moral code, no ethical guide line"??
You sound very pious, is this taught or inherent? Every sentient being in the universe knows the difference between right and wrong without the advent of any religions.
Religion is the cause of major strife in the world then and now, counting all the persecution of past ages to the religious factions fighting for supremacy in the world right now as we speak.
Also get your facts straight on what the word theory represents, look it up.
Do not suggest that religion even has any theories, all they have is a belief, doesn't mean squat! not worth the paper it is written on.
Fine, just one suggested emendation: Instead of "which means squat!" how about "doesn't mean squat."
P.S. Mr. Cook's chestnuts are all my least favorites.
"Our intentions, just as they have been for centuries, have been to spread our understanding of our pupose in life." First of all, whose intentions? Secondly, did it ever occur to you that because purpose comes from within, it varies from individual to individual. For example, yours seems to be to spread religious nonsense whereas mine seems to be to show you up for the vacuous fool you are.
"Money and power are irrelevant to religion." Have you ever heard of the Crusades? How about the Inquisition? Do you know anything about the history of the Catholic Church or for that matter about organized religions in general, including Islam? To view these calamities as mere warps or occasional aberrations is to blind yourself to the world around you and to history in general.
"When religion is as it should be [read the way you want it to be], it is a means to give purpose and order to a world rule by chaos." If the best that religion can do is posit a belief in an entity which by its very nature nothing can be known about and abase and ostracize those who refuse to brook such nonsense, it can hardly be the medium to achieve what you seem to want it to, assuming that this not just some trumped-up need,such as salvation and redemption, to provide religion with a raison d'etre.
"The reason that conflict exists is because scientists have attempted to enter the realm of theology, but simultaneously refuse to acknowledge things of religion." What type of conflict are you referring to? What are the "things of religion?" Or do you know? Kenneth R. Miller, one of the foremost evolutionary biologists in this country, is also a church-going Catholic. How does your statement apply to him and those like him?
"It is only outside of the logic based [on] limitations of science the the [sic] universe can be viewed in its entirety." How do you know this or this just an example of wishful thinking passed off as fact?
In your opening, you admit that you know little about scientific "means to existence," yet later on you posit, "All theories currently held on the origin of the universe are incomplete, which is why they are just theories, but they are talked about and taught . . . as though they are fact." First you admit your ignorance (amply evidenced by your misunderstanding of what a scientific theory is and where it fits into the hierarchy of science) and then, still keeping your ignorance of res scientificae in mind, aver that theories (from your perspective, conjectures) are being taught as fact. This is not only illogical, but false.
Your ignorance of science and history does not stem the flow of your empty pronunciamentos; in fact, it seems to encourage it, for your walls of text appear to grow with every pathetic, puling, psuedo-apologetic post.
@robertallen1 my argument is not that everyone should believe what my religion says, my argument is that it is a combination of ignorance and pride on both sides of the argument that keeps us from advancing any further than where we are at currently as far as this conflict goes. On either side we are not satisfied by either solution because it compromises fundamental elements of both science and religion. So I question why can we not stop screaming at each other and calling names and with open minds fully analyze the possibilities. Essential what Im saying is out of pride religion is rejected and out of ignorance science is rejected. I have no answers for what really happened with the origin of our universe. No one does. Any one who would say they know what happened with absolute certainty is a fool . That goes both ways. The religious ignorantly explain the unknown by the supernatural while scientists see the world to be made up of purely math and science, and hastily reject the possibility of religions solutions. I believe the answer will lie in the synthesis of Theology, science, philosophy, mathematics, the arts, history ect. We can not just answer these questions through the narrow spectrum of science or religion. All things must be combined. I simply think we aren't seeing the whole picture. Just to clarify, my intention in my last post was not to offer some proof that you were wrong and I was right. Because in all honesty, it was saying a lot without really saying anything at all. It was more to evoke a response.
@Tyler Cook:
Conflict? what conflict, the only conflict that science has with religion is when the religious through the ages push there creationism and ID as a given, against the empirical (disambiguation) evidence that science has to offer, like I have said before when the religions found out that science can work in their favour to garner more converts to strengthen their coffers and their hold on the masses, they have stopped burning at the stake!
While science is rejected out of ignorance, religion is not rejected out of pride, but out of aversion by the intelligent to the unfounded, the unproven and the unprovable. The very nature of religion militates against its ability to explain anything worth explaining except itself.
"Because in all honesty, I was saying a lot without really saying anything at all." How accurate and how pathetic. It's as pathetic as your belief that religion (theology) has anything to offer in the way of anything, especially science or mathematics and as quixotic as your chimera of a synthesis as a panacea.
Our minds, limited by logic and time, restrict us from fully understanding the possibilities of a supernatural and divine force working through creation. It is by logic that we experience life. Furthermore, we experience life relative to our capability to understand the world around us. Anything that we deem to be irrational or illogical is disregarded as highly improbable. Our minds are rigid. As a result to our rational and increasingly inflexible state of mind, God has come to no longer fit into our perception of life. This is because God is ultimately incapable of being explained by logic and is beyond what our human minds are capable of understanding. Our inability to fit God into our box of logic and reason sets him outside of all things relative to logic and reason. Among these is science. It is by “science” that Stephan Hawking and those like him attempt to disprove the existence of a God. In an interview done by the Discovery Channel Hawking says, “Science does not deny religion, it just offers a simpler alternative.” In other words he believes his explanation of the origin of the universe to be more compelling than one of supernatural inspiration because, according to natural limitations of our universe, his explanation can be understood in the way we experience life. But God cannot be separated from science because God is science; thus, science cannot be used to explain God, for God is the explanation of science. The creation of the universe and our planet was done through a combination of natural and supernatural means. Science is incapable of disproving the presence of God’s supernatural hand in the creation of the universe because God is outside the realm of science. It is through science that God is revealed to man on a level our minds can comprehend, but it is because of our minds’ rigid nature that we are blinded to this. When analyze the universe and see the order of things, can you really just dismiss the innumerable coincidences to be just coincidences? That in itself is illogical and it is by our own pride that we choose to ignore such things. If religion is simply an illusion than so is the order of life. I do not close my mind to the advancements in scientific discovery, but when science begins to attempt to disprove the existence of a God, it has officially stepped across the line and into theology. At this point it is beyond just simple logic and reason. Theology is seen to be a simple fictional system of beliefs accepted by the ignorant and simple and is quickly dismissed when dealing with issue of origin. This is narrow minded. For theology if not viewed by a religious man is still philosophy and should be considered as relevant to the advancement of knowledge.
You know nothing about something which by your own admission you cannot know anything about. Yet not only do you claim that it exists, but insult the intelligence by demanding that everyone believe so as well. The only support you offer is a wall of textual drivel of which "The creation of the universe and our planet was done through a combination of natural and supernatural means" (How do you know this?) is a pathetic example.
You've done what every ignorant religee does: attribute what at present is not understood to a higher being and denigrate those who refuse to accept you at your word and, like intelligent people, demand proof. What you go to great lengths to describe as our limited understanding does not give rise to the existence of the supernatural until it is proven to exist and mere assertion is not proof.
The intellectual level of your post (which consists of no more than empty expostulation) is proof of theology as a "simple fictional system of beliefs accepted by the ignorant and simple . . . " which is why it has contributed nothing to the advancement of knowledge.
@robertallen1
well said. but i doubt it will be well received by the intended target.
It is not intended to be.
Are you familiar with Kenneth R. Miller. He's one of the foremost evolutionary biologists in this country and a church-going Catholic to boot. Now, him I can respect and admire.
yes i am. i gained a lot of respect for him during the Dover trial.
So did I. Also there are a number of videos of him on Youtube.
I have heard so much talk about how this movie is propaganda and presents a skewed view point.
My question is this: Why attack this movie? when a movie like Religulous is at least as skewed as people claim this movie is, if not more so? People don't seem to attack Religulous. I can't help but wonder why that is.
Just something to think about.....
@Loki DeWitt
this movie is propaganda. he lied about the people being fired, he lied about what id is. he lied to the anti-id people in order to interview them . he misrepresents science. and he selectively edits interviews and refused any of the interviewed to record these interviews for themselves. now religoulous is on this site not only did people attack it you are free to do that yourself
Some words have apparently been omitted. Do you mean he refused to allow any of the interviewed to record these interviews for themselves?
Let me add, the distorted "interview" with Dr. Dawkins during which he not only tries to put words into Dr. Dawkins' mouth, but compounds this with inappropriate and inaccurate textual blips.
Let me also add the idiotic and inaccurate conclusion during which he endeavors to juxtapose atheism to the atrocities committed by the Third Reich.
@robertallen1
yes that is what i meant. thanks
religulous is done by a comedian. it is meant to be funny.
this is supposed to be honest and truthful and it is the exact opposite. it is deceitful and out right lies.
Did you mean to say that the boarding kids are "more" street smart than "less"?
I don't see what all the confusion is about.
Charles Darwin created the theory of Evolution, and God created Charles Darwin. Scopes case closed.
Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
First, Charles Darwin did not create the theory of evolution, just natural selection. Second, how do you know that "God" created Charles Darwin. Third, how ignorant can you get?
1 hour 30min in this docuthesis; admissions stand true, metaphorically to support the Bible account by Richard Dawkins. Definitions of words as ETs
being angels and explicable being the Bibles actual account. Actually I find
most troubling is that the anti-I.D. proponents do not see their belief system
as religious. I long for the day when truth reigns and all beneficiary life forms give their love and allegiance to the only sovereign of the universe we inhabit. Psalm 83:18
@Epicurus
Did you know that the debate between William Lane Craig on whether the resurrection occurred is on the internet, both the transcript and the video? Look up William Lane Craig - Bart Ehrman. I read through it last night. Guess who came out the winner as far as I'm concerned?
As there are some very telling points in it, I was wondering if you had look at it and if so, I would appreciate your opinion.
Hi all,
Thanks for the responses. Nice to see the rudeness is gone.
I am not going to get into every point raised, this is getting old.
I know what I know; you may think differently, your loss and not my pace to edumacate you.
A quick word on the 'empirical proof' one of you likes to chant. I was amazed to find researching my thesis that what I considered 'hard science', chemistry, physics, atomic theory, etc is in FACT second to 'soft science', physiology, sociology, epidemiology; by three orders of magnitude!!!
Science, that you hold out as some kind of God or alternative to God is in fact piss weak! We can predict with 1000 times more accuracy how a person will react to a given stimulus / situation than we can predict the outcome of chemical reactions. Don't take my word for it (I understand you are DETERMINED not to). Just walk through your local University library (if you can find it LOL). Walk through the chemistry AND physics AND nuclear science sections... then walk through the section dedicated to pain / addiction. You will be amazed to find the addiction section is twice as big as all the science sections combined! try it!
1) I do not have a moral code to claim the high ground. I follow His code, since tie eternal. It ain't open to debate.
2) the 1st act Washington did after being declared President was to lead the entire congress out the door and up the street o an evangelical Church service for 'praise and worship'. then he led congress back to the meeting and continued.
... "all men are CREATED equal, with certain... hmm... what Constitution is that written i???
Here's a little something I wrote earlier today...
I Pledge Allegiance To The Flag,
Of the United States of America,
And To the Republic For Which It Stands,
One Nation, Under God, Indivisible,
With Liberty And Justice For All
I thought it sounded better that way, as opposed to the deist you lot mentioned... I'm an Australian and seem to know your history better then you lot???
The whole reason for the founding fathers going to America was to flee religious persecution in Europe and England. The USA was founded in the pursuit of religious freedom and governance.
Evolution was first taught in USA schools in 1963... lets look at the 'enlightened' results...
Sexually transmitted diseases - Gonorrhea: ages 15-16 - Up 226%
Divorce Rates - Up 111% since 1963
Unmarried Couples - Up 536% since the mid 1960's
Unwed Birth Rates - Up 325% since 1963
Pregnancies To Girls Ages 10 thru 14 - Up 553% since 1963. The difference between the two figures is being aborted.
Violent Crime Offenses - Up 995% since 1963.
Scholastic Aptitude Test Scores - Decline in Student - From 980 in 1963 to 900 in 1990... today's youth are flat out speaking or basic literacy.
Start teaching people that they are only animals they start acting like animals.
"The divide between science and religion is less than 45 years old, fact!!!"
It is also easy to tell you Dudes are youngsters and have been raised to believe the guff around you; TV brains. Cannot tell sh*t from clay!
Read "Destiny and Character" A Nation in Search of its' Soul and you shall clearly see the direct link between the VERY RECENT fall in morals and Christian principles and the resulting sad statistics above. Turn from God and those are the results. Statistically significant.
That might help you figure out the other 'abominations' I elude to.
Copernicus: Among the great polymaths of the Renaissance, Copernicus was a mathematician, astronomer, jurist with a doctorate in law, physician, quadrilingual polyglot, classics scholar, translator, artist, Catholic cleric, governor, diplomat and economist, with a distinguished ecclesiastic career. His major works were in Latin, the language of the Holy roman Catholic Church. He was decorated by the Pope. The greatest story of his contribution to history was his personal dilemma between the primitive astrological understanding of the Church and his inner conflict in bringing them the truth!!
Around 1616, Galileo defended heliocentrism, (Copernicus) and claimed it was not contrary to Scripture; he took Saint Augustine's position on Scripture: he too was a pious and devout Catholic.But, he was willing to fight the Church as he knew he was right. As we all do today.
You see lads, as history shows, the Church has always been slow, reluctant to yield to new proofs of science; no debate from me on that. However, there is a great difference between the Church and having a real relationship with God and living by his code.
The inquisitions and crusades for example were just all out aggressive wars of expansion. It was only after the Church was promised a generous share of the booty they 'endorsed' the wars a 'Crusade'.
Same with Walter
Raleigh, a bloodthirsty English pirate, until he f*&ked Queen Elizabeth I of England , and was knighted in 1585and promised to hand over a generous share of the booty... Sir Walter Raleigh, patriot and Knight Defender... LOL
Epicurus; Man, "what exactly are these abominations that you are referring to and what is an amoral world view".. you really ought to change your avatar name to Donald. Goofy or Pluto. It is not right to take an intellectual name and then display such foolishness. You actually have less than no idea of what you speak!! Sorry dude, you really are out of your league!
But briefly (and I mean briefly, because only a fool matches wits with a fool).
Germ theory; right on.
Atomic theory; right into it Man.It is ONE of my greatest passions. Higgs Boson particle (God) particle... well it gets back to an earlier post "the interaction of matter and conciseness" it went over your heads. Anyway, as particle physicists 'concentrate' and 'look for' this particle they keep finding 'what they are looking for'. However, they will never find the answer to "life' as that is what they are searching for; because life began on the spiritual plain, not the physical.And if you want to throw that 'empirical proof' crap into the mix; there is NO empirical proof in quantum mechanics as it is an abstract construct based on other layers of abstraction. You do not seem to understand this basic lore of science.
Newton's theory of gravity; irrelevant, what's your point?
The theory of evolution great theory and I Love it!! No conflict at all with the THEORY of Evolution, very good work! Awesome theory to explain incremental changes within living systems. However, that is all it explains. The misconception that the theory means ALL life came from some single cell 'whatever' is ludicrous and pitiful!
Big-bang theory; beautiful!! Especially the 'universal' constant (Universe expanding at UC rate) absolutely shows God made that sucker 'bang' at EXACTLY the right velocity.. awesome!
Well, got carried away again. Been sitting here a good 20 minutes when I have boxers to coach.
People, please try to grasp the concept that science is just one little slice of the pie. Just one piece of the jug-saw puzzle. Please do not put your 'faith' in science, you will be sorely disappointed.
Bearing in mind that science never 'proves' ANYTHING!!! Science merely offers the most plausible explanation that fits our mental constructs and observations. It is 'right until proven wrong'.. never proves a thing! Any High School Science teacher will tell you that!
Please try to use science as one of the ways you explore this great Universe as you enquirer further into it! Also, as you get older and gain both wisdom (different from accumulated knowledge) and discernment; you start to gain the faculty of critical thinking and see past the polarized propaganda you are currently swallowing hook, line and sinker.
Seriously, Epicurus, change that name to something more befitting; his philosophy of Epicureanism, striving for the happy life is a World away from the 'prove it, prove it' drivel you spout. I am a philosopher and can take it from all sides at once and assimilate what is truly meant; you are a polarized, blind fool. You are not in the same league as Epicurus by a galaxy.
Oh, yeah; "kill em all and God will sort them out" That line ain't mine, but I Love it and that's how I've gone through my boxing career. As General H Norman Schwarzkopf said "It isn't our job to judge. But it is our job to arrange the meeting". Do not mistake Christians for pacifists or wimps... 'up the guts and tons of smoke'.
CIAO
God Bless
Steven Wootten
@Steven Wootten,
The ruddiness is gone but you're still rude. Not good.
I realize you haven't been able to watch "Ben Stein’s Flunked: No Intelligence Applied", apparently because it was boring to you, but I also see that "Through the Wormhole" was boring to you. Sorry, but it seems to me that it might be something with "short attention span." I think what goes against your preconceptions is boring to you.
Anyone here could be writing walls of text refuting everything you've said. But what's the point. You'll stay the same. So I'll just comment on the following, since I couldn't find anything else worth commenting in your huge comment.
"Bearing in mind that science never 'proves' ANYTHING!!! Science merely offers the most plausible explanation that fits our mental constructs and observations."
Are you sure about that? Here are two very simple PROVED scientific claims:
1. The Earth rotates around its own axis. The shape is oblate spheroid, and revolves around the Sun.
2. The age of the earth is around 4.5 billion years.
There are hundreds of thousands solidly proved scientific claims.
@Steven Wooten:
Rudeness is gone? seems you replaced rudeness with your weak ad hominem attacks, so will give same back to you. Your post is a pile of empty wax rhetoric gibberish, does not mean squat!
Your rant is full of holes, what do you know of the big bang, your god made it at the right velocity? then why is the universe speeding up into atrophy?
Quantum mechanics is abstract, no it is not, quantum field theory is the most precise there is.
Your a$$inine religion wanted to fry Galileo, so don't do no apologetics on your religions behalf.
"Science never proves anything" That remark is so $toopid I will refrain to delve into it, no use.
By the way my god "Ehwa" can whip your pu$$y foot god hands down!
Now, Achem, we must not disparage those who are more ignorant, mentally challenged and boeotian than you who are simply trying to spread what they believe to be the way, the truth and the light. Instead, we must vilify them!
Well I honestly try not to vilify, to stoop to their level of ignorance but sometimes can not help taking umbrage to their vilifications, so offer them the same.
"The theory of evolution great theory and I Love it!! No conflict at all with the THEORY of Evolution, very good work! Awesome theory to explain incremental changes within living systems. However, that is all it explains. The misconception that the theory means ALL life came from some single cell 'whatever' is ludicrous and pitiful!":"
why?
Now, Epicurus. Don't ask him why, he probably doesn't know--and now you've put him on the spot. Shame on you. We must respect the beliefs of others, even if founded on ignorance, superstition, lack of education, "factual" hand-me-downs and dogma. After all, this is another human being who was created specially for some reason or other, not a dumb animal.
You have as much right to post on this site as anyone; however, after reading your latest opus, I almost wish you didn’t. I was going to write another wall of text in response to yours until I read Vlatko’s answer—and he’s right. So I’ll confine myself to a few remarks and leave the details to others if they care to waste their time responding to you as I am now doing. If you find this rude, it is meant to be.
Juxtaposing the teaching of evolution (which began long before 1963) to sexually transmitted diseases, divorce rates, unmarried couples (what’s the matter with that?), unwed birth rates, teenage pregnancies, violent crime and decline in scholastic aptitude is as valid as linking it to the increase in parking violations, jaywalking, obesity and heart disease. This coupled with your egotistical belief that you are following “His” code, places you on a level of intelligence and education commensurate with Ray Comfort, your companion down the way and to the right.
Your ignorance is consistently spread over history, especially American, and the sciences—I assume that it extends to the arts as well. Certainly facts play only a small role in your asseverations. Let’s take one: “Start teaching people that they are only animals they start acting like animals.” I guess this applies to the conduct of Charles Darwin, Thomas Huxley, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett and just about every modern scientist, a more degenerate bunch never existed.
And speaking of facts, the name of the book you cite is “Character and Destiny” by D. James Kennedy of the Coral Ridge Ministry, hardly an expert in much of anything.
It’s you who are blind and clinging doggedly to your ignorance and dogma makes you a fool as well. You have been previously advised to go back to school, but even assuming that you could matriculate, I doubt that it would do much good.
@ Steven Wootten
Wow, all those increases in violent crime, unmarried couples, child pregnancies, bastard children, STD's, divorce rates and lower scholastic aptitude scores is the result of Evolution being taught in schools?
Hmmm, maybe we should wind back the clock, to when the Church had control over what little was being taught. You'd no doubt be able to find some stats, something along the lines of;
Crusades-- up 100%
Witch's burnt at the stake--- up 100%
Scholastic Aptitude Test Scores--- down 99.9%
Kids molested by Catholic Priests -- up 90%
Rate of basic education -- down 95%
Rate of general BS in the world -- up 50%
Rate of azzholes that feel they have the right to knock on my door with religious rantings -- up 80%
Chances of our species learning more --- down 90%
(the above is farcical and made up, as was your statement)
"Start teaching people that they are only animals they start acting like animals."
That idea, teaching people they are more then animals, worked real well for the Nazi party. Funnily enough, they kinda had the same attitude as you, "kill em all and God will sort them out".
@Steven Wootten
like everyone else i will not answer your text in it's entirety. one you seem to continue to confuse correlation with causation. next "The theory of evolution great theory and I Love it!! No conflict at all with the THEORY of Evolution" cool but then "misconception that the theory means ALL life came from some single cell 'whatever' is ludicrous and pitiful!" but it does say that. that is not a misconception. and that statement (backed by proof) is more ludicrous then "god did it"? if god did do it(i might not understand you correctly) are you saying we and all animals were "created in the form that we have today in six literal days? now with id there is a chance that it is correct (very small chance) but these ideas have to follow the proper channels before they enter the classroom. this idea has guidelines that must be followed. first form a hypothesis (you or someone else) test said hypothesis. make predictions based on the hypothesis.verify hypothesis. see if the hypothesis is in conflict with existing theories and laws. if it is refute said laws and theories or change /discard hypothesis. form theory base on hypothesis.repeat all above steps. put theory up for peer review. have others verify or refute theory. if verified then and only then present it to schools. the school system is not a testing ground. and most importantly science only deals with the natural world and natural causes so purge all supernatural from anything you want included in science. does that sound fair?
The passage from the sentence beginning with "No conflict at all . . . " i and ending with "then 'god did it'?" is not up to your usual standard of clarity. I believe I know what you're getting at, but I would like to hear it from you. Thank you.
All progress comes from the unreasonable man. I ain't gonna play along with the status quo or go with the flow... Bro!
These great comments made me wonder: who had and when were the "first" science versus religion arguments printed? I would be curious to read what they brought to the table in those days?
az
Az, wondered the same thing myself. After looking into it, believe it is a new phenomenon the 'gender neutral' and other abominations of our 'enlightened' age have promoted to deny their own conscience and delude themselves into an amoral World view.
It is not an old, ongoing debate. The USA founding fathers were genius and they were Christians. look up Washington's 1st act after taking office!
We have always had smart people, but never had so many of them trying vainly to throw up a wall of ignorance and division between faith and science.
I do NOT believe it is a two way battle either. We of faith really have NO problem with science, it is the curiosity God built into us. Just the propaganda of a minority that way overestimate their intelligence.
Anyway, their loss! Kill em all and God will sort them out.. LOL
The divide between science and religion is less than 45 years old, fact!!!
Actually, the scoffers do not seem to know the origin and history of great scientists; Churches, theological universities, the great libraries at Alexandria and Constantinople. Probably do not even know that Persia and Greece were the birthplace of modern numbers, writing, science and philosophy; if they did we would ALL be more respectful of other cultures and people. Just a symptom of our Western ignorance and TV addiction.
Regards
Steven Wootten
I am really sick of people like you characterizing our forefathers as Christian and by corollary, this country as founded by Christians. While they were certainly influenced by various forms of Christianity (who in this modern world hasn't been?), many of them such as Jefferson and Franklin were deists--and this is part of what made them as great as they were--they didn't have a church or a religion to bog them down.
I'm also sick of this unholy juxtaposition of morality (or ethics) with a concept of a higher being and the concept of a higher being with the idea of purpose. This is simply specious and unprovable justification for what cannot be justified.
As stated some many times before by me and others, science is irreoncilable with faith, for one is based on evidence and the other on nothing--and, quite frankly, in the words of Kate Smurthwaite, "I am not an id**t," but I am a scoffer who not only acknowledges but admires and studies the paramount contributions made by the various cultures you enumerate in your last paragraph.
@Steven Wootten,
There are some problems with your arguments:
1. You claim higher moral ground than the heretics. Not true.
2. You clam that USA founding fathers were Christians. Not true.
3. You claim that you really have NO problem with science. How about evolution, Big Bang, the age of the Earth and the Universe, condoms and abortion?
4. You claim that the divide between science and religion is less than 45 years old. Not true. Try 17ht century (Galileo, Copernicus), or even before that.
Right on all counts.
By, Vlatko, you haven't gotten back to me regarding the posting of Matt Dillahaunty's e-mail address which he has given permission to do. I would really appreciate an answer.
@robertallen1,
I gave you an answer via email.
I never received it.
@robertallen1
if i remember correctly he answered you on "The Atheist Experience: Ray Comfort Interview"
He answered me with respect to a quote, but I never received an answer with respect to whether it was all right to post Matt's e-mail address, even if it were cleared with Matt.
Do it, all email addresses and web sites included in comments end up with the moderators anyway. It gets flagged instantly.
az
Since yesterday, I have asked three times and received no response. If I do not receive one within the next few hours, I am going to assume that it's all right to do so and post the address.
As i said write the address with the full @ included and it will go straight to moderators. Vlatko is here working, he is commenting on the doc 10:10:10 pill or perception.
You are very attached to this issue, aren't you?
az
I finally received Vlatko's answer:
"This is the third time I'm sending this to you:
"I will not advise putting up an email address publicly on a forum.
"Spiders will quickly harvest that email and his inbox will be spammed to death.
"I think anyone can find their email addresses and communicate with them in the same way you did.
"They can go to their website; they can call, etc.
"I hope you understand."
So here it is. I think the people behind that show are jerks and that Matt is the head jerk, but I would be an even bigger jerk if I caused him to be spammed to death.
I gave up on the issue some time ago. My further efforts were undertaken mostly as a courtesy to you and others who have shown an interest.
Once again, if we had our show, we could leave theirs in the dust.
@robertallen1,
I'm sending you the answer to your question thrice over email. Please check your spam and trash folders.
That smile fits perfectly with that response. You are so patient....you're the best!
Do you need a secretary?...lol
az
my mistake. that's twice in a short period of time. my bad
"After looking into it, believe it is a new phenomenon the 'gender neutral' and other abominations of our 'enlightened' age have promoted to deny their own conscience and delude themselves into an amoral World view."
what exactly are these abominations that you are referring to and what is an amoral world view?
"The USA founding fathers were genius and they were Christians. look up Washington's 1st act after taking office!"
LOL no they were not, they were deists.
Upon taking office, Washington initially focused on the establishment of the federal judiciary and executive departments.
"We have always had smart people, but never had so many of them trying vainly to throw up a wall of ignorance and division between faith and science."
faith is belief in things without evidence or sometimes in spite of evidence. science is a process to understand phenomena as objectively as possible. they are opposites.
"We of faith really have NO problem with science"
okay tell me what you think about each of these: Germ theory, Atomic theory, Newton's theory of gravity, the theory of evolution, and the big-bang theory.
tell me why you agree or disagree with each one.
"Anyway, their loss! Kill em all and God will sort them out.. LOL"
how christian.....
"The divide between science and religion is less than 45 years old, fact!!!"
the divide between science and religion is about 150 years old. you know when man hit the age of enlightenment and came into the modern world of technology and medicine. nothing about religion or faith gave us space exploration or modern medicine.
Stay in school.
Tsk, tsk, you are a touchy lot of tigers... ha.
Your emotional vitriol shows you really are very insecure; what's with the insults... nothing like that need occur.
Anyone care to demonstrate or explain how evolution, or quantum mechanics are repeatable, measurable, etc. The 'scientific method' is very limited.
'Over the Edge', sorry for whatever makes you so angry.
But as a wiser man than me once said (Bob Dylan) "not my problem".
Why are you even commenting here when you obviously did not watch the movie?
Crystals building 'ever more complex patterns' that amino acids 'piggybacked on' to form the complex molecules of life' was one of the funny theories put forward by one of the science Dudes.. really... and he said it with a straight face. It got better, lightning (may) have been the 'spark' that then caused those crystal riding proteins to form life.
Come on, I couldn't make something so wacky up, let alone say it like it was for real. Then,act surprised it didn't make any sense. If you want to vent your spleen in support of theories like that; go ahead.. bahahahah!!!
True North Principles; read Steven Covey... it will come to you. Google can help you Bro.
Never said anything about the unchanging Bible; that is your issue... read slowly "principles never change".
Not out to burst anyone's bubble; but you gotta do better than that to mix it with the big boys Bro.
At least you agreed with the obvious observations on the body language and behavior of both sides of this story "yes they looked nervous" and 'yes Ben did look believable". I 'm not going to pollute things with "where is your empirical proof"... seems you are either a mind reader or.. who knows? Maybe you were the camera man and actually know of what you speak???
I can only go on what I saw... hmmm a bit like looking out the window and knowing God is great and He created all this for all of us to share.
One of the basic conflicts 'your type' have is to carry on as you do; you have to deny your own experience, just as you stated you have!
Not that it appears you have put much thought; scientific, moral (manners, you know... insults and bad language like Mummy told us ALL is naughty). But, Dude, "science doesn't say God doesn't exist"... blah, blah, blah. What are you trying to say??? Actually, never mind.
Perhaps you might benefit from some meditation, anger management therapy or learn some self control. You only upset yourself acting like that. Then you have to shame yourself reading what you cannot take back .
Oops, silly me, I'm judging you with my antiquated morals; yeah, boo hoo!
My God is a Mighty God, wise and righteous... bit like myself.
Nothing supernatural going on Bro; we both walk around the same Earth, looks real to me!
Oh ,other Dude; faith is 'belief in things unseen".. you know like electricity, magnetism, atoms, quarks, almost everything in our modern World is built of abstract constructs, we cannot see most of the 'scientific' processes and systems we ALL use everyday and yet ALL believe in.
It is a LOT easier to apply those same intellectual constructs to creation than to random weirdness, chance mutations and thunderbolts.
Bros, the chances of a random mutation forming life that evolves into US... the paragon of all creation... has been compared to the chances of a tornado screaming through a junkyard and 'creating' ... oops, spontaneously evolving...a functioning 747 jet... hmmm if you really want to go that way.. do so.
Just keep your nasty comments for your other genius and leave these comments to the documentary. .. couldn't help it.. you make it so easy ...LOL. I am actually laughing out loud at your comments. Seems I'm not in the little club, so i will leave you all to have fun in the bath together, comparing theories.. bahahahahah
He was a strong man in Jesus form; knocked over the money changers tables in the temple... try doing that today! You give the impression of a sheeple wage slave or frustrated professional student try hard guessilectual that cannot get a job. Anyway, God has and continues to bless me; I am very wealthy and I mean good old dollars, cars, property, happy family, Boom Boom! Bro; just like He promised to 'bless us abundantly'
Then he 'bruised Satan" when in hell after the crucifixion. As a National Champion Thai Boxer and with the awesome brain God gave me; can punch holes in flimsy arguments and then do the same to their proponents.
(All true, just put that arrogant bit in so you can relate Bro.. LOL)
You are funny kiddies. Now back to your gender neutral, tolerant, 'enlightened' little hate filled lives.
God wins hand's down Dudes... you may begin wailing and crying now!!! hahahaha
One more, 'give me YOUR empirical evidence' and explanation of the duality states and nature of light.
Why doesn't water 'fall apart' with the weak bonds?
Yeah, I know, you cannot answer. don't feel bad, you do not have what it takes...
The usual idiotic, ignorant standard drivel. Why can't you learn to write clearly and cohesively?
@Steven Wooten:
What in the hell are you talking about? Sounds like someone having tantrums, stamp the floor somewhere else.
Achem, are you suggesting that Mr. Wooten fill the floor with decals and if so, why and of what type?
Ha, Ha,...robert, seems us Canucks do have different inflections of speech than you Yanks, what I meant by stamping, is when a child who can not get his way will scream and stamp their feet, jump around and so forth, I know from experience, since I always wanted to get my way. lol
Then the word is stomp.
Definitely stamp, stomping is a stampy way of walking.
In British English the word is stamp, as to stamp your feet, with stomp the action must be directed to a place, as to stomp out of a room, a person does not stamp out of a room, but when a child/adult has a tantrum, they will stamp their feet, unless they are moving out of a room than could be stomping.
Perhaps it's a regional difference. However, the point is a niggling one which I did not make with any degree of seriousness.
Stamp is a Tax the English put on the colonies - Stamp Tax Act.
Stomp is what the Americans did to the British for Stamping.
Makes sense, I guess the words have to originate from someplace.
Not supposed to make sense. Just a little play on the British vs.American English thing.
God created the oceans; any smarties out there want to explain the hydrogen bonds of water? the 'structuring' of water? The interaction of consciousness and water? the quantum mechanics of consciousness, intent and their effects on matter?
The intelligentsia have perverted most of the fundamental laws of science. For example, Einsteins' Law of Relativity (as he lamented) only applied to heavenly bodies (no, not Kim Kardishian, LOL)' now it has been applied to nonsense and ends up feeding nonsensical ideas such as ''relativistic ethics' (situational ethics; where right and wrong, good and bad change with circumstances.. poppycock!
Gods' principles (true North principles in modern speak) never change! Fashions change, social norms change, economic, financial and political systems change; but principles never do.
The decline of our great western culture and freedoms; divorce up, teenage pregnancy up, drug use up, suicide up,homosexuality up, child abuse up, corruption up.. etc, etc, etc is directly inked to society moving from Gods unchanging principles... yeah the ones Lincon and Washington founded the greatest power on Earth on. Moving towards 'ethics', humanism,. The utopia of man... sound familiar; Marx, Lenin... blah. blah, blah... it don't work.
Even on a philosophical level; once honesty, fidelity, chastity, faithfulness, loyalty, perseverance, FAITH; were all virtues to be admired and striven for... now the ONLY virtue left is 'tolerance'. Be tolerant of any abomination, any lifestyle... hahahaha
Cop this "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society" – Aristotle
"Tolerance is the virtue of men who no longer believe in anything" - G. K. Chesterton
Those who believe in nothing will believe everything.
Not trying to put down science or genuine scientific inquiry; as a Christian these are groovy, fun questions my God has laid before me like an instinctual buffet to contemplate, ponder, discuss, study and enjoy.
Really, reading the socialistic, political, rhetoric you scoffers carry on with; and the vitriol and sad, angry emotions you project. What are you so scared of to react like startled tigers??
Relax, we, and God, do not need your blessing or permission to enjoy the wonderful spectrum of inquiry into creation we can all share.
Sorry you scoffers, on ANY level your arguments are without scientific substance.
You are only working yourselves up. Now settle down and play happily together. ; very childish.
CIAO
@Steven Wootten:
..."Relax, we, and God, do not need your blessing or permission to enjoy the wonderful spectrum of inquiry into creation we can all share"...
So you have a pipeline to your gods do you, you are buddy, buddy, the gods little sunbeam, and you speak for your gods also? in the vastness, time scale of the cosmos you are an insignificant carbon atom.
Anything you have said on your religious rant is without any scientific merit whatsoever!
And since you have brought it up show us your empirical proof that your gods exist!
Funny religee's!
"The interaction of consciousness and water. The quantum mechanics of consciousness, intent and their effects on watter." The zanies have come out to play with the toys of humpty-dumpty science.
I second Achems_Razor, a member in good standing in the intelligentsia--at least the last time I looked. He has something to offer; you have only yours tepid morality and religious caterwaul.
Now get this straight, mouthpiece of god, the belief in something without proof (FAITH) is far from a virtue; it's one of the worst vices known to man, for it abrogates the intelligence and inspires nescient ranters like you to let go the arrows of ignorance, especially scientific ignorance, from their quiver.
They thought they were wise, even as they knew of and denied their own knowledge of God... and their wisdom was foolishness they could not see as their eyes were blinded to the truth.
This story was very simple and easy to follow; as the truth often is. Ben seemed steadfast, easy, earnest and confident; the 'scientists' were all emotional, flustered, edgy and shifty. Really, if Police were interviewing the two; who would come across as covering up the truth?
The parsimonious principle (one of the 7 rules of the 'scientific method') says the simplest explanation is often correct. When an undergraduate in physics I challenged the Professor, in front of 400 students, to explain the existence and origin of light. He waffled on endlessly and covered three boards in formulas and gibberish. When he asked for my theory I said it in six words "God said let there be light"... won the bet and didn't have to attend any pracs that semester... Boom Boom.
Science is to enhance our understanding and wonder at Gods' creation, not to tear it down. The greatest scientists of history were believers almost all led to science in their thirst to acknowledge and understand and appreciate the magnificence of His creation. Very simple, until you try to explain it away... LOL
Crystals, lightning, some other higher intelligence... grow up guys and gals. It really isn't rocket science Guffaw Guffaw.
@Steven Wootten
ok lets break this down.
"Ben seemed steadfast, easy, earnest and confident" yes he did but he was lying check out the real story of why the people he "claims: were fired for their beliefs
"the 'scientists' were all emotional, flustered, edgy and shifty" yes he lied to them about the film the interview was for then lied about content of interview. also ben has the luxury of editing.
your let there be light example is void of any facts and is not an answer. science does not invoke supernatural causes sorry
"Science is to enhance our understanding and wonder at Gods' creation" no it is not. again science doesn't involve itself with the supernatural
"Crystals, lightning, some other higher intelligence." what? we have perfectly natural explanations of how crystals, and lightening form
"smarties out there want to explain the hydrogen bonds of water? " not really. the answer is there for anybody to look up for themselves and a proper explanation would be too long.
"The interaction of consciousness and water?" what? really explain this for me please
"Gods' principles (true North principles in modern speak) never change! " first off what are true north principles? secondly the fact the bible never changes is the greatest weakness of religion so much of this book is based on an era long past and where they did not have our understanding
"honesty, fidelity, chastity, faithfulness, loyalty, perseverance, FAITH; were all virtues to be admired"you are guilty of looking through rose colored glasses the atrocities commuted during the height of your religion would make you wish for the problems of today. also as i posted before (and will repost if needed) Christians in the u.s. are proportionally more likely (based on ratio to general pop) to go to prison than any other group and you Christians are the vast majority there. get your house in order before condemning mine
"Sorry you scoffers, on ANY level your arguments are without scientific substance." what? again god is not and cannot be scientific. it is impossible by definition. science doesn't say god does not exist only that science tries to explain the world around us using natural causes. in closing you provided no evidence for your claim. do you have any actual evidence or just more of the same?
LOL
so god said let there be light and you think that answers how it was done?
LOL you are completely full of s***
You're funny.
It is kinda depressing that people are still debating this anno 2012
Regardless of the nature of this documentary, and whether or not it skews facts, there is a distinct tone of disdain and real animosity towards anyone with religious leanings from the science community.
There are brilliant leaps happening every day in science and especially theoretical physics, but that is a constantly changing field of understanding, and should be approached with an open mind.
The hostility toward any form of spiritualism comes in direct conflict with the basic principles of science- you should not be out to prove God does not exist, you should approach it with an open mind until something can be definitively proven. These physicists who start out with an atheistic ideology have already tainted their findings.
I am not trying to convince anyone to accept Jesus Christ or whatever, all I'm asking is, have you allowed your personal qualms to warp your opinions? When you think of a religious person, do you think of a narrow-minded maniac who has no time or patience to listen to the science and theories that you hold as truth? Being an atheist does not automatically exempt you from bigotry.
A true atheist would have the respect for humanity to fight irrationality with calm certainty, not snarky remarks about a person's belief system.
@MoiraF
first off an atheist is someone who does not believe in a god or gods. that is it it has nothing to do with science or anything else. next the "disdain and real animosity " (at least for me) comes from the injection of religion into areas of life/study that it is not welcome. science tries to explain the natural world using natural phenomena, god is supernatural and therefore not part of science. that is not to say that god doesn't exist but only that god is not part of science. so scientists might get angry when they have to explain something that science isn't designed for. i find it extremely arrogant of religious people to need to inject their beliefs where they are not wanted. when you accuse people of not having an open mind because they reject religion you forget that most of us were raised in religious households and many atheists were believers until overwhelmed by the evidence. i would suspect that there are more atheists that truly experienced both sides than the religious. so while we have experience from both perspectives many of the religious have only one and we are closed minded? now some of us respond with snarky remarks but try having many areas of your life influenced or controlled by something that is false and see how calm you are. then to add insult to injury we have one area (science) that is supposed to be free of religion and we can't even have that. do your own study if you wish take an entire week and see how many times god or religion is mentioned to you compared to how many times atheism is mentioned and see the results for yourself
Scientific proof of a supreme being will open all minds, but until then, religees deserve the disdain and animosity with which they are met not only by the scientific community, but by the intelligentsia at large.
Also, science doesn't draw from anything as idiotic as a belief system, but rather from direct evidence and abstraction from it.
You know the sad part of this is the 10% of the opposing extremes are the ones who get represented most often and loudest. The other 90% accept the "lets agree to disagree" mentality and get on with the rest of their lives, yet rarely get even a mention in anything.
Wow. Ive never heard someone cry SO much about where a video is categorized. You asked and they said no. If you worked for them, maybe u could have the discussion but they said no. NO MEANS NO:) Your persistance could really benefit someone, not saying this to be cruddy, find a cause that matters.
I want a dislike button
Not a bad idea.
Stop harrassing me Achems_Razor. You're not helping me. You're insulting me and being antagonistic towards me. And I don't appreciate it. Please be kind to me and stop.
Epicurus, what I choose to do with my time is up to me. I appreciate your concern.
Both you and Achems...I would like to somehow take responsibility for flooding your email and help you out somehow but I'm not emailing you. I'm commenting in this section of TDF. **scraches head**
@13,
Since Epicurus and I are moderators, all comments to TDF, comes to us as emails, including yours.
So like I said you are flooding our emails, and don't even try like you said, to help us out! I "suggest" you stop commenting on TDF, it is getting redundant.
Don't know what to tell you. Religion isn't the determining factor for me.
But my point is that if this doc is considered a conspiracy then all religion docs would have to be considered conspiracy. Better to have a religion category with this doc in it otherwise there would be nowhere to draw a line.
Thank you lakhotason for your vote. Reasonable logic.
I'll need to know if you are religious to include your vote though.
Are you religious lakhotason?
It shouldn't matter if I'm religious or not. The same reasoning would hold.
As far as reasoning goes yes.
But I'm not gathering reasoning.
I'm gathering opinions from actual religious people. Specifically a survey sample group of religious people who can answer my question. Thus supporting or not supporting Vlatko's and Epicurus theory about the opinion of religious people.
Don't feel like you have to be part of my survey if you don't want to.
I'm saying that is my opinion.
I can add your opinion to my sample if you are religious.
Are you religious?
You can say you don't want to participate. That's fine too.
Epicurus I'm trying to validate you and Vlatkos currently baseless assumption that moving this film to the Conspiracy section WILL result in complaints of bias discrimination from religious people...the only non-biased non-discriminatory reason you've provided for keeping it in the Religion section. I mean Bias and Discrimination are kinda reasonable in the face of creating more Bias and Discrimination. But without tangible evidence of that possibility then we're just left with plain old unwarranted Bias and Discrimination. And I like TDF. And I don't want the appearance of bias and discrimination on TDF. And it's boggling to me that my attempts to have TDF seen as un-biased and non-discriminatory are not supported by TDF Admin (but are ironically treated with bias and discrimination).
=(
If I can find a reasonable sample of religious people who would prefer it stay in the Religion section then yes I would agree with your assumption and move on (that said please don't go and get people to fake that they're religious just to come on here and vote).
Like I said, I like TDF. I support TDF (like not financially...not yet...but it's my favorite documentary site!). I want to promote TDF to my Atheist friends, my Deists friends and my Theist friends. But it's really hard for me to justify doing that given the apparent bias and discrimination.
=(
So like I said, I'm trying to find evidence accordingly so I'm Not left with a conclusion I don't like.
=(
Please support me in this.
Do you know what monomania is?
Thanks Upwardcall78. Very fitting points for not only this Religion section but also this film about the "expelling" of ID from general view.
Thank you for your views on ID over the edge. It's unfortunately off topic as I've already pointed out that my view and the views of two TDF admin staff persons are that this film Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed is a Conspiracy film.
Thank you robertallen1. Your reply to Upwardcall78 was very much in the spirit of this Religion section. If I may, I'd like to respectfully suggest we learn from past religious mistakes and forgo the insulting.
Now are either of you three religious and if so could you please go ahead and answer my question? I'll re-ask it.
Would you prefer this film be in the Religion section or Conspiracy section?
Unfortunately if you are not religious I cannot use you in my sample.
Sorry
1. Evolution is a paradigm, you cannot question the "black box", everything as far as life's origin must be viewed from this angle. Read Thomas Kuhn, and some Karl Popper. The Scientific Method is a logical fallacy - affirming the consequent, and denying the antecedent
2. Evolution is not observable, testable, or repeatable - it is not Operational Science it is Historical Science
3. People have worldviews, worldviews are made up of presuppositions: Every person presupposes an absolute morality, laws of logic, that your senses are reliable, uniformity in nature, that your memory is reliable
4. people do not take the time to internally critique their presuppositions, they just assume that there senses are relaible, or there memory is. Someone will say that morality is relative until someone does something to them they do not like
5. If evolution were correct, knowledge wouldnt' be possible. You would have to have blind faith that you evolved correctly. How do laws of logic evolve? Where did they come from? They have to be from one source, you can't have contradictions in logic. Why would you expect to see uniformity in nature? why are we not made of spagetti every other day?
6. Only in the Bible, do we actually find a solid worldview. We can account for our reliability of senses, uniformity in nature, absolute morality, I can stand on those things in my worldview?
7. To be an evolutionist you have to stand on the Biblical Worldview being correct to do anything... you concede defeat by opening your mouth. You have knowledge because you have the Knowledge of God written on your heart, don't beleive me Read The 1st chapter of Romans in the bible.
1. In case you didn't know it, by its very nature, evolution must consider the antecent and the consequent for the two are interdependent. Had you read anything about evolution or cracked open a work or two on biology, archaeology, zoology, you wouldn't make such a pathetically ignorant statement--you've also probably never visited a museum.
2. Have you ever had problems with cockroaches and their built-up resistance to pesticides? Have you ever read about microorganisms or perhaps examined them through a microscope? So much for the observable.
3. Do you have problems distinguishing between the subjective (world view) and the objective (science)?
4. See 3.
5. You go on and on about what you think logic is and yet this item begins and ends with non sequiturs. By the way, what is "correct evolution" as opposed to "incorrect evolution?'
6. What is a "solid worldview?" Has it ever occurred to you that an Islamite might think the same way about the Koran as you do about the Bible and that he could be right and you could be wrong or that perhaps these two terms are relative?
7. For the most part unintelligible and your cheap reference to Romans doesn't help it any.
All in all, yours is one of the most ignorant, benighted, uneducated posts to appear on this site.
lol everything you said showed a complete lack of education in the field of biology.
I am religious...so for my sample I count. And I prefer it in the conspiracy section.
My current sample is 100% for Conspiracy section.
=D
But the sample is way to small.
I need more feedback from religious people.
Could those who are not religious please hold your comments for a while so as not to confuse things for those religious people who might stumble on here and see my request?
Much appreciated.
robertallen1...you don't even make sense.
And are you religious?
I can't use you in my sample if you are not.
Vlatko and Epicurus postulated a future outcome (omg the religious will complain!) with no evidence whatsoever.
So much for practising the science they preach.
You are religious Achems_Razor?
Because I can't include you in the sample if you're not.
Calling me a baby for demonstrating a rational approach vs irrational and with insults...I think is a bit off....
Me religious?? I almost choked! But wait! there is the FSM. hehehe
Are you just trying to be dense or does it come naturally? Vlatko and Epicurus limited the term "future outcome" to--but why bother to try explaining it to you?
loyell13
id is religious to most of its followers.the modern id movement started up in 1984 with Jon A. Buell's the Foundation for Thought and Ethics (he was a creationist who believed the designer was the christian god). the first id textbook "of pandas and people " has been shown to be a creationism textbook with designer replacing creator. the biggest id group is the discovery institute which is a christian organization. also the dover trial where id had it's chance to show it's credentials in a court of law,presided over by a christian judge fell flat on it's face when brought to task by science. judge jones ruled that id is religious. so as i stated the vast majority of the scientific community thinks it is religion, the person responsible for the movement thinks it is religious, the biggest supporter is a religious group, a christian judge thinks it is religion. but you say otherwise so.....
lol you are being insanely ridiculous.
I will tell you that if i had any say in the matter this documentary would stay here JUST in spite of you and your antics.
you are being a baby and not being rational. you can ask, we said no. that is that. this is not a democracy. once again. QQ
@Epicurus
Well I clicked it but here is an additional thumbs up....
I've sent in my complaint over that link you sent me Epicurus.
To cover your worries that religious people might complain....
The consensus of the Admin staff at TDF is that this film is a Conspiracy-Theory rant (Vlatko and Epicurus). They even admit it should be in the conspiracy section (Epicurus). But they have purposefully kept it in the Religion section. When I asked them to put it in the Conspiracy section instead of the Religion section accordingly they said no because they might get possible complaints from religious people of discriminatory bias. I pointed out that I am a religious person and I am actually complaining and that it is actual discriminatory bias (to leave it in the religion section at this point). I asked them to move it to the Conspiracy section accordingly. They called me a Troll saying I should have politely asked them to move it to the conspiracy section via email in the first place. And they directed me to other websites so I could see that it's in the religion section on those sites too. I am of the opinion that this film would be more correctly at home in the Conspiracy section. As a religious person I am offended and feel that people of religion have come under bias and are being discriminated against by having this film, which covers Science and Conspiracy topics, in the Religion section. In looking at evidence for/against the worries of Vlatko and Epicurus of possible complaints of discriminatory bias from religious people if this documentary were to be in the conspiracy section....
For those who are religious, would you prefer to have this film be in the religion section or the conspiracy section?
Interesting question but should not all religion be considered a conspiracy?
Thank you lakhotason for not flame/bitching me. Much appreciated. yes it is an interesting question.
Your question is a bit off topic though. I'm not talking about Religion or Science or ID or propaganda. I've established that I and Epicurus and Vlatko believe this film to be a Conspiracy film.
The topic is if religious people would complain of this film was in the Conspiracy section vs where it is now.
I'm gathering a sample of answers from religious people on that question.
lakhotason are you religous?
If so can you give me your answer to that Conspiracy section vs Religion section question?
If you're not religious I cannot use you in my sample.
Sorry =(
BTW lakhotason are you a TDF Admin?
loyell13,
I wanted to ask you, are you 13 years old? You sure sound like it, so now I will forever hold it in my mind that you are indeed 13 years old, a little kiddie, and so no doubt will others here on TDF.
Thanks Achems_Razor...wtf did I ever do to you?
=(
What other documentary sites?
Epicurus you are full of $h#t. Previously you argue that this film belongs in the Religion section because the subject is Religious (ID being a religious subject to you and not a science subject). Now you argue that you can speak from a science perspective in the Religion section because this documentary...in your own self contradictory words, "talks about a science subject."
You're also full of $h#t because you argue that my wanting this Conspiracy OUT of the religion section is a small complaint. But that potential hypothetical complaints in the future (vs. my actual complain NOW) hold more weight because they'd be right in claiming Discriminatory Bias (yet somehow my real complaint actually happening right now can't claim discriminatory bias?).
"Epicurus you are full of $h#t. Previously you argue that this film belongs in the Religion section because the subject is Religious (ID being a religious subject to you and not a science subject). Now you argue that you can speak from a science perspective in the Religion section because this documentary...in your own self contradictory words, "talks about a science subject.""
yes it speaks negatively about a science subject (evolution) so you can use science to correct it and discuss it.
"You're also full of $h#t because you argue that my wanting this Conspiracy OUT of the religion section is a small complaint. But that potential hypothetical complaints in the future (vs. my actual complain NOW) hold more weight because they'd be right in claiming Discriminatory Bias (yet somehow my real complaint actually happening right now can't claim discriminatory bias?)."
those would hold more weight because there would be A LOT more of them.
I also conceded yesterday that it should be in the conspiracy section and I accepted your argument that it is a conspiracy theory doc.
your complaint now can and has claimed discriminitory bias. that is fine. it might be the case. but it is also the case that this movie was made by a religious group with christian religious ideals. its target audience is religious people.
if you go to every other documentary site on the net you will find it in the religion section.
you seem to be getting a little mad.
I have an idea. Let's create a humor section and put it there.
there is a comedy section and perhaps you are right. lol
I defer to your judgment.
even better...I am going to lobby the site, for ALL religious documentaries to be slated to the Comedy section.
...or at least the fictional section
Is there one of those?
That tops my idea.
@loyell13,
I said move on. The film stays as it is.
If you want to discus about it fine. If not, as I've said, there are plenty of choices around the Web.
If your intention was just to suggest another category for this film, you could have done it politely via email (contact link). But it is more than obvious that you're just trolling.
I wrote my offical complaint and posted it in response to Epicurus comment that he is a TDF Admin. And thus I had not seen your comment suggesting an email. Please direct me to where I can send an email because I do want this film moved OUT of the religion section.
@,loyell13
I'll just second that: Your complaint is noted. it has been ignored. have a good day.
I originally asked that this film be moved into the Science section of TDF. I've since discovered the controversy with this film and can understand why it is not currently in the Science section. But I had also requested that if it would not be moved to the Science section that it at least be moved from the Religion section and into the Conspiracy section. That was my request from the early onset of my posting here. Apparently it is the view of TDF admin that this film called Expelled is a Conspiracy film. So why this film called Expelled is in the Religion section and Not the Conspiracy section of TDF is a mystery. And although it's been fun talking about ID and such I want to get back on to my topic of why this film called Expelled is in the Religion section and Not in the Conspiracy section where it would more accurately fit. So I have documented the conversations up to this point that are on topic with how this film called Expelled should or should not be in the Science or Religion or Conspiracy section of TDF. I have done my best to edit the conversation to make sure the comments are threaded in the order they appeared and without editing the content. I have excluded comments that were not on topic. I have also corrected some grammar and punctuation. My apologies for any editing errors. This is my first attempt at trying to accurately document something like this. I want to get back on topic of why I think this film called Expelled should Not be in the Religion section and Should be in the Conspiracy section. Especially since the TDF Admin even called it a Conspiracy film (the term Vlatko used was "conspiracy-theory rant masquerading as investigative inquiry").
loyell13: Why is this Science documentary "expelled" into the Religion section?
Epicurus: LOL it's not science that is why. it is completely religious and has no science in it.
timesoftrouble: Well done Ben Stein. This documentary tells the truth and those who don't like it are sure to try to bring it down. The battle is on against an atheistic culture that can no longer reason.
Vic Demise: No Atheist will try to "bring down" this movie- it's too darned amusing!
loyell13: You mean like "Expelling" this documentary to the Religious section instead of the Science section? Or even Conspiracy section?
Epicurus: But it fundamentally is a religious argument. intelligent design stems from creationism. it implies a supernatural creator. it is religious.
Vlatko: Intelligent Design = Creationism = Religion = your own 2+2 = 4 thinking process.
Epicurus: IF IT WERE THE CASE that intelligent design were true, one way to verify that would be to look for some sign in genetics
loyell13: I'd also like to point out that that is my point. Let's look for those signs in genetics. And stop discouraging folks who want to look for these signs even if YOU don't believe those signs exist. Especially since Dawkins says there IS possible evidence of these signs!
Epicurus: no one is stopping people from looking. they are stopping people from prematurely teaching it in SCIENCE class.
loyell13: Yes people are being stopped from looking for these possible signs of a designer. We're not even allowed to investigate it scientifically because we're being brainwashed that it's not even a science topic/question. Richard said it is possible an advanced civilization could account for the first DNA on earth. And their signatures could be in our chemistry and our molecular biology. It's his thought process for the plausibility of Intelligent Design. Who cares of Dawkins doesn't believe it's worth investigating. Why the paranoia and repression? How is the concept that DNA was seeded by an advanced civilization RELIGION?!!! Seriously...stop with the anti-creationist paranoia.
Vlatko: Evolved-By-Darwinian-Means Advanced Civilization DNA Designers = Sir Francis Crick in 1960s = Directed Panspermia = Complete Wild Speculations without any tangible evidence whatsoever. Even if it's true it is not support for ID.
loyell13: If that evidence does exist, it IS EXACTLY proof of Intelligent Design. Not one thing you or I have said has ANYTHING to do with Religion Vlatko. In fact we've only discussed SCIENCE topics and by using Science terms. Keep this film in the Religion section if you must Vlatko. But...FOR DARWINS SAKE...and to respect the Scientist who said it IS SCIENTIFICALLY possible...PLEASE ALSO put this DNA-Designers-Might-Exist film in the SCIENCE section. These SCIENCE discussions belong under the SCIENCE section.
Vlatko: Well you're trying to convince us that the ID is valid. You need evidence for Advanced Civilization DNA Designers.
Over The Edge: yes id is possible. yes evidence could be in our dna. but possible does not mean probable.
Vlatko: @over the edge, Well said. Thanks.
loyell13: But more to my point, please show me the evidence for how Panspermia = Religion (per the apparent phenomena that mere mention of Panspermia in a Documentary on TDF = put said documentary into Religion section of TDF).
Vlatko: Move on, there are plenty of choices around the web. This doc stays in the religion section. There is no solid evidence for or against Panspermia, thus it is only speculation.
loyell13: My claim is that TDF's credibility is hurt by not including this film also in the science section. And I want it also in the science section SO THAT THE FILM IS WRONG! The film appeals to viewers...and I quote, "to see science as intolerable" (last line of the TDF review of this film). And apparently all I've seen with all these comments, and especially Vlatko's is that YES SCIENCE IS INTOLERABLE.
robertallen1: Do you mean intolerant or intolerable.
loyell13: I'm discomforted that science really is intolerant (I'll say it correctly...the review of this film has intolerable...and that doesn't make sense...best have someone fix that).
Epicurus: this isn't a science documentary. it is a religious documentary funded by a religious organization crying because they aren't allowed to teach religion in science class.
loyell13: Vlatko I'll ask again (third time now). How does Panspermia = Religion (hence requiring this documentary to be in the Religion section)?
Vlatko: I'll tell you why: The scientific theory of evolution is portrayed by the film as contributing to fascism, the Nazi Holocaust, communism, atheism, and eugenics. Full of patronizing, poorly structured arguments, Expelled is a cynical political stunt in the guise of a documentary. A conspiracy-theory rant masquerading as investigative inquiry and an unprincipled propaganda piece that insults believers and nonbelievers alike. Any further questions?
loyell13: Thank you for answering why you don't like this film called Expelled. And I understand how you feel. I too have experienced negative things said and portrayed about the things I cherish. I gotcha man.
Listen, as someone who cherishes religion as much as you cherish evolution (well I don't cherish religion That much...ha...but still) can I please suggest that this film be put in the conspiracy section? Because in all reality...this Expelled film really is just a conspiracy film.
if your only beef is that this is not in the conspiracy section, well thats a pretty minor complaint. im sorry that it is not but im sure if it were we would have all kinds of religious people complaining that we are discriminating and being bias.
Are you TDF Admin Epicurus?
Do you get to speak for them?
Do you disagree with Vlatko?
Are you saying this film called Expelled is NOT a conspiracy rant?
"Are you TDF Admin Epicurus?"
Yes I am.
"Do you disagree with Vlatko?"
No I do not, however I do see your point that this should be in the conspiracy section (as well). but I explained we would just get religious people who agree with it arguing with us that it is in there.
So now we have TWO TDF Admins verifying that this film called Expelled IS a conspiracy-theory rant.
So....
Because the TDF Admin person known as Vlatko wrote concerning the film called Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed that it is a "conspiracy-theory rant" and because the TDF Admin person known as Epicurus expressed agreement with wrote statement and because the TDF Admin person known as Epicurus separately wrote concerning the film called Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed "this should be in the conspiracy section" and because the film Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed is currently in the Religion section of TDF and not in the Conspiracy section of TDF, I as a religious person do formally complain and claim discriminatory bias and do respectfully ask that the film called Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed be moved out of the Religion section of TDF and into the Conspiracy section of TDF. If the film called Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed is moved from the Religion section of TDF and into the Conspiracy section of TDF I will retract my complaint of discriminatory bias. If the film called Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed remains in the Religion section of TDF but then also is added to the Science section of TDF I will also retract my complaint of discriminatory bias.
I am a real and actual religious person (not some possible one in the future) and my complaint about discriminatory bias is real (not some possible one in the future) and is happening right now (not some possible time in the future) and I am claiming real discriminatory bias (not some "minor" thing).
your complaint is noted. it has been ignored. have a good day.
QQ
Waiting for directions to that email Epicurus.
Your rude "QQ" is noted.
You are sounding like a spoiled baby, you should not demand anything, there is such a thing as manners!
Did you ever hear of politely asking, you just seem to want to get your way, only Vlatko puts the docs where he wants to put them, and I agree with Admin., this doc should stay put!
What you are is a fool.
And, by the way, what do you plan to do if Vlatko (there's only one TDF administrator that I know of) still refuses your demand?
im an admin, but i have no say in where the videos go.
If the time you have spent blogging on this issue had been spent learning about the subjects . . .
robertallen1. The subject now is why a Conspiracy film is in the Religion section. Get on topic.
Anyone here believe in Demons? That's a Religious topic. And semi-related to this film about Expelling.
Epicurus...one bacteria evolving into another "species" of bacteria is not the Species to Species via evolution proof I'm asking for. I don't see bacteria species evolving into another bacteria species any different than one kind of Dog evolving into another kind of Dog. What I'm asking for is a scientifically proven example of something like a Dog evolving into a Cat or a Bacteria into a Virus. I think you get what I'm asking for.
you dont see it any different? im sorry i was unaware that you were a microbiologist and were the one who decided what the definitions were......
nothing about evolution says that a bacteria will evolve into a virus or a dog into a cat. i cant say i know what you are asking for.
@loyell13
i know Epicurus already answered this. the example was correct based on the rules of science. you cannot change the definitions of scientific terms to fit your argument. there will probably never be an example of a dog evolving into a cat and evolutionary theory never made that claim. all of the changes claimed within evolution are incremental accumulate over time. all you have done is show your lack of understanding of evolution. how can you be against something you clearly don't understand? anyway you will be happy to know that this will be my last comment to you til you provide evidence for your argument. i have had these conversations before and i know how they go. you claim that ".Intelligent Design is Logical and Supported by evidence." but refuse to give this evidence. then you either go off topic or continue to ask questions til somebody stumbles and you claim a victory. all the while never showing any hard evidence for your original assertions (yes you started this).
over the edge,
You are right, loyell13: started all this, and never gave one iota of empirical evidence for his assertions, that is why I have stayed out of this discussion, leads nowhere.
I never started this Achems. You guys pestered me for Scientific Proof/Evidence of ID. Like I care or am even the spokesperson for ID. I don't even really believe in ID. But hey...I played along. And Hey...You can't complain about not experiencing Scientific Proof/Evidence IN THE RELIGIOUS SECTION.
I gave evidence for an intelligent designer (external agent) per 2nd law of thermodynamics being a part of our universe. Epicurus only pointed out that it was LOW entropy at the beginning of the Universe vs now. This is only logical (low then high now). But ANY entropy in our Universe requires an external agent (if our Universe is closed). Don't cry that I'm assuming...Dawkins assumes things too.
I pointed out that Natural Selection works within a system...but doesn't create the system. Example being DNA. No one knows how DNA "the computer program of life" actually came about. Just calling DNA "programming" is interesting as computer programs themselves need an external agent to come into being.
Richard Dawkins said that he's only "more than 50%" sure that there is no God. He didn't say by how much. But with that said, given that ratio, Richard would be merely less than 50% sure God exists. These ratios are NOT 100% or 0%. And the kicker is that they're only speculative.
I've pointed out that it takes Faith regarding the most important part of Evolution...DNA. We don't know how it came to be. The Atheist has faith we'll find a non-creatorthingy answer. The Deist has faith we'll find that a creatorthingy is the answer. Both positions require faith.
I pointed out that a creatorthingy is the default position...because quite frankly, we don't have anything better for how it all began. The only scientific alternative to a creatorthingy is infinite universes. Not only will scientists call infinite universes not science but if there were infinite universes then there are infinite possibilities and with infinite possibilities...God Exists! :-o
The argument of "you're making things up to fit your equation" is really no different than Dark Matter and Dark Flow. These are completely unproven. They only exist within "the equation."
These are only some of my evidences (just off the top of MY head mind you). I'm not going to claim their scientific because...pssst...this isn't the Science section....
;-)
Funny thing is. None of this matters. It's not even my point. I just want this film moved out of the religion section. Keeping it here hurts me. Is Science intolerant? Keeping this documentary here has me thinking so. This film is a conspiracy documentary. It belongs in the conspiracy section.
=(
@loyell13
you seem to be missing the point. yes id is possible. yes evidence could be in our dna. but possible does not mean probable. it is also possible any 1 of the 28 million gods that are or have been worshiped are the creator (all but 1 are wrong for sure) but it is up to the person putting forth the claim to support it with evidence. that is your problem no positive evidence. you can state possibilities, raise questions , argue against the evidence we have but you still provide no evidence for your claim. you keep bringing up dawkins but all he said was something is possible and gave an idea of where to find the evidence if it exists. that is not evidence for anything at all. you are arguing "Russell's Teapot" and no better than someone yelling on the street corner
@over the edge,
Well said. Thanks.
I wish you wouldn't have mentioned "Russell's Teapot." He'll never get it.
@robertallen1
sorry about that lol.
over the edge...really? My claim? Have you even been reading what I've been writing?
My claim is that TDF's credibility is hurt by not including this film also in the science section. And I want it also in the science section SO THAT THE FILM IS WRONG!
The film appeals to viewers...and I quote, "to see science as intolerable" (last line of the TDF review of this film).
And apparently all I've seen with all these comments, and especially Vlatko's is that YES SCIENCE IS INTOLERABLE.
That's my unfortunate claim at this point. And the evidence is all the purposful maligning, avoiding questions, attacks and just outright non-inclusive language (aka intolerable language) from you guys because I've simply asked that this film not be given biased treatment.
Do you mean intolerant or intolerable. I hope you understand the difference because you don't seem to understand anything else.
Maybe you are simply a shill after all.
Intolerant
So yeah. Still waiting to hear how the possibility of Evolved-By-Darwinian-Means Advanced Civilization DNA Designers = Religion.
I'm looking at you Vlatko....
im still waiting for a response to everything i said.
if something is not supported by evidence it is not science. if someone suggests DNA designers without first showing the existence of these designers, they are jumping the gun.
What a fine refutation of intelligent design despite its grammatical flaw. Substituting the word "pixie" or anything else for "intelligent designer" etches in the absurdity of this concept.
...so Richard Dawkins is absurd?
getting childish now.
I can't believe this. You're having Dr.Dawkins saying the opposite of what he actually states.
Who are you shilling for?
...so Richard Dawkins is jumping the gun?
He gave a hypthetical scenario in response to a question put forth by someone who was fishing for that type of answer.
how many times do i have to explain this to you?
IF Richard Dawkins ACTUALLY meant what he said then yes he was jumping the gun. if he was just giving the interviewer the simple answer to his loaded question then who gives a s***?
So Epicurus...we shouldn't take Dr Richard Dawkins literally?
I'm confused.
You see Epicurus, I've taken what Dr Dawkins said at face value, seriously, and literally, and I'm not re-interpreting it with "well he didn't mean it."
Dr Richard Dawkins said that Panspermia is possible and evidence of it is possibly in our chemistry and our molecular biology.
Not seeing the Religion there.
*facepalm* refer to my last post to you explaining that you should not have taken what he said at face value.
I'll say it again. The Man said it's possible. Why are you making it out like he said it's IMPOSSIBLE?
no one is making it out to be like that. the only person who wont let go of a hypothetical here is you.
you dont even know what you are complaining about anymore. anything is possible. is it probable? do we have any evidence? until we do keep it out of science class.
im sorry that your religious beliefs seem to interfere with your ability to think about this rationally.
Epicurus...I for one have stayed steady and true to my original "complaint" all this time. Read my first post. It's always been about having this film be in the science section as well. I've only diverted a little to hear what you guys had to say. And haveing heard it I'm not comforted that Science is NOT intolerable...the opposite actually.
=(
this isnt a science documentary. it is a religious documentary funded by a religious organization crying because they arent allowed to teach religion in science class.
Michael Behe attempted to falsify evolution by searching for irreducible complexity. he thought he found it in the bacterium flagellum. his papers were peer reviewed. he was wrong.
we study DNA constantly, if there is some sign we will see it.
I'm thrown by everything from "I'm not comforted" to "the opposite actally." Does this mean that you feel uneasy that science is tolerable, that you feel comforted that science is tolerable or that you feel uneasy that science is intolerable--or perhaps something entirely different.
If you can't help me see my way through this, I appeal to Epicurus or Achem's Razor--or perhaps you need someone with a different type of expertise.
I'm discomforted that science really is intollarant (I'll say it correctly...the review of this film has intolerable...and that doesn't make sense...best have someone fix that).
It's there in one of the recent posts. You're a big boy now (I guess) and must do your own research.
There now, pause, take a deep breath and everything will be all right
--I think.
It's also possible the world might end tomorrow and you with it.
Love how my comments first appear as replies in the correct place and then as random comments per being out of place....
its everyones, you just have to look at the bottom of each comment and it will say who it is in reply to.
@Achem's_Razor
I respect an ignoramus seeking knowledge, not one who expatiates on what he doesn't know or cannot know.
@Achems_razor
No I'm not a scientist and as for being a man's man, the only p*ssy worth considering . . .
But seriously, I respect an ignoramus (a relative term) who seeks knowledge, not one who merely expatiates on what he knows nothing about or can know nothing about.
@loyell13.
Unlike Epicurus, I do blame you, not only for your gullibility rooted in an appalling lack of education and discernment, not only for your inability to learn or to want to learn about a subject before putting your thoughts in writing, not only for your pretentiousness in trying to go up against those who know more about a subject than you do (e.g., Richard Dawkins), but for your basic dishonesty.
I like you robertallen1 because you blatantly Troll and don't Troll about your Trolling.
@robertallen1 Trolling is for Trolls.
Robertallen is not a troll.
@lakhotason Then robertallen1 should stop trolling.
Nothing he said is worth responding to.
It's just Troll language.
"How dare you..."
"don't...insult my intelligence..."
"your remarks...reveal only an ignorance...."
"What can one expect...."
"Dr Dawkins never said... [what I referenced everyone can here for themselves that he actually did say]"
"This makes you a cheat and a liar"
"Epicurus reported it accurately [not exatly]"
"Why can't you [I have and did...see my reply to Epicurus]"
"you should be ashamed...."
Who writes like that and expects not to be considered a Troll?
He's not trolling.
If you feel insulted (and hopefully humiliated), I've succeeded.
Not only do you misquote, misconstrue and lie about Dr. Dawkins, but also about me. Nowhere have I have indicated that I do not expect to be considered a troll (now that I have figured out what the term means as used here).
Now get over your abashment with a little education.
Would you please enlighten me as to what a troll means in this context so that I can determine whether to thank you.
No need to thank me.
I must say no matter the subject, following Epicurus on this thread is pleasant even though it is argumentative it remains civil and informative, following Robertallen is like listening to insults over insults over insults. No need to insult people. He makes me imagine the kind of father he must be, snob, unpleasant and terrorizing.
az
This discussion, argument or agreement to disagree, (depending upon which side you wish to defend) Is simply never going to be finished in this lifetime.
You can tell Christians that as world religions go, their's is a relatively new upstart and you will be told NO...the entire planet is only a few thousand years old. (anything that appears to be older, apparently, was placed on Earth by a GOD to test or fool us.) At one time, I would have argued till I was hoarse. I no longer have any inclination to declare my own thoughts or opinions as any better or worse than anyone else's, where Faith and Religion are concerned.
What I would really like to see from all of us (I've beaten this one to death, I know, so I apologize for repeating it yet again), is the ability and tolerance to accept that everybody has the the right to follow any belief or lack thereof. Here I will place a proviso: As long as it doesn't hurt another person's being or property.
How does the fact that I believe in the "Frog of Alturi" effect your own belief in Jesus, or Mohammed or anyone or anything else? Most people who follow a specific faith (at least in my experience) are much more inclined to tell a confessed atheist; "you are going to hell" or "you are wrong". Often they will quote passages to highlight their point. The problem I have always had is that the Bible (Christian) is filled with stories... Theologians, have explained that much of the Bible is not meant to be taken literally. But parts can be taken this way if it helps an argument...For me, this is far too subjective and convenient. This book still seems to be the only book not subject to critical analysis by peers or detractors.
How does my non or altered belief, effect you as a pious person following your own path? Do not most "accepted" (theres a great word where religion is concerned) faiths, embrace tolerance, acceptance and help for your fellow man/woman, regardless of how far down he/she may have fallen? Even if the very book doesn't actually reveal this...it has become what people believe it teaches.
There are comments on here about Agnosticism. This is where I would have placed myself at one point. Now I simply just don't believe in outside forces effecting my destiny.
To me, blaming or thanking a supernatural being for your own effort is ridiculous and a complete cop out.
If you want to discuss what I have written here, please do. However, I rarely respond to rants or poorly researched points. This includes people who misquote the Bible to serve their own ends...I may not agree with most of it...but, HAVE actually read it more than once.
You have the right to believe what you want. Just keep religion out of the public places, especially the schools, and especially out of the science classes.
Vlatko by not addressing my logic about Agnosticism vs the Atheist Faith you appear to lack faith in your own ability to defend your beliefs against my logic.
If that is true it doesn't surprise me that with that level of faith/confidence in defending your beliefs against my logic you try the tactic of expelling (and that in the comments about a film about expelling opposition).
You've used your authority as a TDF admin and tried to appeal to readers to view me as a creationist (but you don't know me) and that since it is impossible to discuss with a creationist (which is not scientifically proven but simply your own opinion) they should view it as is impossible to discuss with me (the effect being the same as expelling me if they do).
I don't know if it's impossible to discuss with you Vlatko because I never have discussed with you. And Vlatko I will not pre-judge that I cannot discuss with you because of your Faith (whatever that may be). And I will not appeal to readers to pre-judge you that way either.
It's cool you have a website (TDF) that you can proselytize your Faith with Vlatko. More people should be as confident as you about their Faith as that. But to so openly attempt to suppress opposition to your Faith by labelling me and opposition as un-discussable does not encourage me to view your Faith or your website with respect.
Ironically it encourages me to take this Film about the Expelling of Intelligent Design as fact with regards to the level of expressed animosity at Intelligent Design out there. And it is scary to have an Admin try and "come down" on the subject (per a Film about the subject).
You can't expect positive results by openly judging someone with "it's impossible to discuss with you" and then asking them to go watch documentaries that support your position. You've set yourself up to fail from the beginning. Just ask them to watch documentaries and keep open the lines for debate.
And your statement "Intelligent Design = Creationism = Religion = your own 2+2 = 4 thinking process" is just wrong. It would take quite the communication dialogue to show you how it's wrong...so for now I'll just say...it's wrong (not true, not accurate).
Interesting that when I pointed out some simple logic about agnosticism vs the Atheist Faith not only does no one attempt to refute me but a TDF Admin comes on and tries to "expel" readers from attempting to refute me as well.
If I my logic is off, people could have pointed out how it was off. But Vlatko you did not attempt to correct my logic and instead you argue that people should Not try to correct my logic either.
That kind of behaviour reminds me of the behaviour of repressive regimes when confronted with opposition.
If that is Not how you want to appear, please consider letting go of pre-judgements and instead embracing hope and faith on your ability to persuade.
I will watch those documentaries. It will take some time (I still have to watch what Epicurus suggested). After I have I expect to be able to discuss them. And without being prejudged or repressed when I try to discuss them.
loyell13
could you please explain what you mean by " atheist faith" atheism is a lack of belief in a god or gods nothing more how can that be considered a faith? also do you believe in a god?
@over the edge There are three Faiths. The Deists Faith, the Theist Faith and the Atheist Faith. I don't mean organized religion. I mean actual Faith in what one believes in. On matters of how the Universe began and if it required a God Agent and how that God Agent might affect/interact-with the universe and humans, because we humans are still so finite in our knowledge, comprehension and experiences, any position more than an attitude of "I don't know" is really just our own personal Faith in Deism or Theism or Atheism. Choosing what Not to believe in (Classical Atheism) is no different than choosing what To believe in (Classical Deism or Classical Theism). Any of the three positions at its core are really just personal Faith in ones belief.
Agnosticism on the other hand is not a Faith. Agnosticism is the humble admission that one does not know.
To answer your question about if I believe in God, currently my personal Faith is in Deism and Theism. I've also done my research and currently I do not believe in Atheism (and thus do not have Faith in it).
i think if you look at the words you will see that agnosticism comes from the greek words a and gnosis which mean without and knowledge respectively.
to claim to be JUST an agnostic isnt enough. we are all agnostic truthfully since we are without absolute knowledge one way or the other.
but when it comes to how you live your life or what you believe based on that lack of knowledge one is either an atheist (meaning they dont believe there is a god usually because there is no evidence to support one), a theist, a deist, a pantheist, an animist etc. but they are all agnostic.
if you could point out a single atheist who says they know for sure there is no agent i would like to see that. rather they dont assume there is one because there is insufficient evidence to do so.
If we don't know our universe is closed or not then we don't know if there needed to be an external Agent or not. So what we have is not certainty that there is no external Agent (the Atheism Faith) but uncertainty if there is an external Agent or not (Agnosticism). With Agnosticism one can remain humble in their unknowing or they can arrogantly claim that their Deist Faith is true, or that their Theist Faith is true or that their Atheist Faith is true.
And no my evidence is not a variation of the standard creationist canard. It's the result of my own 2+2 = 4 thinking process.
There is no logical person who says with absolute certainty that there is no external agent. most atheists say they have no reason to assume there is.
also just positing an external agent leaves us with questions like, how did that agent go against the second law of thermodynamics? it still leaves us with an infinite regress.
it leaves more questions without even being sure the assumption is correct. it is more honest to say you dont know.
one is either an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist (or agnostic deist/pantheist etc), and to me agnostic atheist is the most intellectually honest.
Your first paragraph is well put and has been stressed time and time again, especially by Dr. Dawkins. The problem is that so many people read or listen selectively--and sometimes not even that. As god created man in his own image, theists created atheists in theirs.
Dear Robert, don't you think it's about time you get an appropriate avatar?
I never liked the grey man with the cap on the head, it really doesn't suit you well. I always thought it looked like an unused safe.
May i suggest perhaps the cover of a book, or a scientific logo design, or the photo of an old smart guy like Epirurus uses....or a young one which would be the opposite duality.
az
I didn't choose it; I never noticed it and quite frankly, I don't care, but thanks for your concern.
@Epicurus Now we're talking. It really does boil down to your statement "to me." That statement is one of belief. I'm glad you have it. It's not my belief. But it is a belief. And so the argument of Atheism vs Theism/Deism really boils down to arguments between personal beliefs. I like the honesty.
As for your Infinite Regress idea...no it does not need to leave us with an infinite regress. We're not asking how God (external agent) began. We're asking how it is possible that, given the 2nd law of Thermodynamics, the Universe could have created itself. Our universe seems a closed system. If it is then it requires an external agent. I can eliminate infinite regress by postulating that the External Agent does not need to be under the 2nd law of Thermodynamics. And that the External Agent doesn't need to be finite or need to have had a beginning. Yes I don't have evidence for this. But again, until we have evidence about the External Agent like we do about the Big Bang, we don't need to ask these "How'd the External Agent..." questions like we do about our Universe.
And it's not that farfetched. Remember that the proposed idea for how our planet has...by chance alone...overcome the ASTRONOMICAL odds for complex life to exist...by chance alone (because the default is that there was an external agent)...is the idea that there are infinite universes. Infinite Universes is pretty much the same as infinite regress. And remember that there's no evidence for these infinite universes (it's just a theory to explain the ASTRONOMICAL odds given no External Agent).
I argue that there does not need to be infinite regress as the External Agent could have existed forever and with no beginning and without entropy. My theory actually removes the need for infinite regress. Infinite Universes actually keeps something very similar to Infinite regress. I'm only proposing one infinite being. Multiple Universes is proposing that there are an infinite amount of universes. Neither of these theories have any evidence. They're just theories. I'd argue that Occam's Razor would vote for my One Infinite Being over the idea of an Infinite Amount Of Universes.
but what does one base this belief on?
what do you base the belief that there is intelligent aware agent?
i base my belief that there isnt for the same reason i dont believe in the hindu gods. there just isnt sufficient evidence.
our universe seems a closed system but we dont know that it is, and even if it is, there is sufficient energy in it initially to produce what looks to us like order, but if you remember what i said earlier:
"in the very early stages of the universe, the distribution of matter and energy was very, very ordered, as demonstrated by the uniformity of the CMBR. As such, one could characterize the entire distribution of matter and energy in the universe with a single number (the temperature) to a very good approximation. Compare that to the universe we see now, filled with complicated, disorderly distributions of galaxies, stars and gas. The amount of entropy in these objects is enormous (recall our earlier discussion about the lack of coherent orbits for stars in elliptical galaxies and galaxies in galaxy clusters)."
if you look at the CMBR it would appear that our universe has gone from order to disorder. there are pockets of area where order is happening (us) but it is extremely brief and will fade as the sun goes through entropy.
you can not just posit a being that doesnt obey laws of physics because it cleans up your model. thats like saying "magic" and wiping your hands.
the fact that a universe exists and energy exists already makes the model of infinite universes better than that of an all powerful eternal entity.
occams razor would dismiss your being claim and allow the universe one based on my prior paragraph.
i dont think you read everything i put there....let me try again, and i guess just the important part.
"our everyday conceptions of "order" and "disorder" do not really apply to the physical quantity called "entropy". Indeed, the entropy of the early universe was extremely low. This makes sense if one remembers that, in the very early stages of the universe, the distribution of matter and energy was very, very ordered, as demonstrated by the uniformity of the CMBR. As such, one could characterize the entire distribution of matter and energy in the universe with a single number (the temperature) to a very good approximation. Compare that to the universe we see now, filled with complicated, disorderly distributions of galaxies, stars and gas. The amount of entropy in these objects is enormous (recall our earlier discussion about the lack of coherent orbits for stars in elliptical galaxies and galaxies in galaxy clusters). Hence, the idea that the entropy of the universe has somehow decreased in violation of the second law of thermodynamics is largely nonsensical."
Everyone, listen to how robertallen1 speaks, "with intelligence and comprehension this limited, you have the gall to decree the purview of the courts." This after he wrote, "I expected you to miss the point." This is not an intelligent or reasonable approach to any dialogue. It's divisive, aggressive, rude, disparaging, and a horrendous way to try and proselytize the Atheist Faith.
As for his point, I have above average intelligence and above average comprehension and I do have the gall to decree the purview of the courts because I think for myself.
One of the argument tactics I've found that those of the Atheist Faith do when in an online discussion (Trolls do this too) is to ask the opponent to go find gobs and gobs of information and then get back to them. Two things happen when the opponent does this. 1. They find out details the Atheist Faith member missed and bring it up. or 2. They can't find the information. In either scenario, the common response by the Atheist Faith member is to either not address what the opponent brings up or to reference more gobs and gobs of information. So it becomes a never ending journey to find gobs and gobs of information that in the end...the Atheist Faith Member (sometimes Troll) does not even discuss anyways.
With an attitude of "I expect you to miss the point" I'm not interested in further dialogue with robertallen1. That's outright admission of Trolling.
First of all, I wasn't speaking, I was writing.
Secondly, you assume that I'm an atheist.
So much for your intelligence and comprehension.
"The animosity against intelligent design isn't alarming; it's deserved..." -robertallen1
There you have it folks. The animosity is real.
How soon before the potentcy of that animosity resembles Nazi Germany's concentration camps?
Oh...and robertallen1...please learn to reference...please. Per lack of references...again...I'm going to have to call you out as a truth fabricator again.
Two of my references are in the documentary itself--they're easy enough to find, except perhaps by you. For the third see "Ben Stein's Flunked" which is also on this website.
Of course, the animosity is real. Why says it isn't? However, your linking of this animosity against the pseudoscientific with the concentration camps is puerile and pathetic.
@Lovell13
As Epicurus and Achems_Razor have tried to drum into you, the documentary is fine where it is.
Also, I see that Epicurus has cited the relevant portions of Kitmiller v. Dover School District. Why don't you take advantage of his generosity and read his post and perhaps the entire decision?
Remember, INTELLIGENT DESIGN IS NOT SCIENCE!!!
The evidence for Intelligent Design could care less that it's called science or not.
But this topic is NOT a religious topic, it's a Scientific topic.
Because evidence for an intelligent designer (vs say a blind watchmaker) should be examined and judged by scientists...not clergy (and definitely not by courts).
Religious groups using Intelligent Design to attempt a legal advancement of their religious agenda...and then getting legally thwarted...shouldn't stop investigation and dialogue about the evidence of an intelligent designer. I think that's why this film does not touch on the Kitzmiller v. Dover case. As the case is not the point. But rather the evidence of intelligent design and especially the scientific examination of intelligent design evidence is. Let's have the evidence out in the open and scientifically examined and discussed. Then we can settle this once and for all (instead of eloquently saying back and forth over a website "you're wrong" over and over).
Well, when I went to answer your question about me apparently not answering where I get my information on how I think the film is true about how there is an agenda to expell anything contrary to Darwinian Athiesm by first labeling it as inferior and then expelling it away from view/topic/conversation so it can't have a chance to prove itself otherwise...I got a message that my comment needed to be approved by a moderator...and it hasn't been posted yet...so...does that answer your question as to where I'm getting my information about why I might think this film might be true about the Anti-Intelligent-Design behavior out there?
I'm reposting my reply here since I was allowed to post/edit this message without censorship.
1st: I answered your question.
2nd: Your own. Duh.
Anyways: One reasonable logic for this film being in the Religion section is that Atheism is a Religion and Intelligent Design is a topic that belongs under the Atheist Religion umbrella.
I mean...what else could Atheism fall under if not under Religion? Atheism is not 9-11/Arts and Artists/Biography/Comedy/Conspiracy/Drugs/Economics/Environment/Health/History/Military and War/Music and Performing Arts/ Mystery/Sexuality/Media/Nature and Wildlife/Politics/Philosophy/Psychology/Society/Technology/Sports/For Preview Only. Atheism as a theory is technically a Philosophy so Atheism films could go under Philosophy. But what this film trys is asking why such Anti-Intelligent-Design behaviour? Intelligent Design is really only an Atheist topic. Deists/Theists don't discuss Intelligent Design. It's neat if they find that it's true. But Deists/Theists don't need it to be proven for them to be Deists/Theists. Intelligent Design really only smacks in the face of Methodological Naturalist Atheism. So as an Atheist topic, perhaps TDF has this film in the Religion section per Atheism films belonging in no other section then the Religion section.
Or perhaps TDF wants viewers to consider Intelligent Design films as non-scientific and akin to religious propaganda...thus expelling this film to the Religion section.
Hey wait a second...the preview of this film is pretty biased on how it attempts to lead the viewers into a negative opinion of the film instead of just explaining the topics brought up by the film and letting viewers form their own opinions (like most of all the other reviews on this site).
Hmmm...and I'm asked where I get my information that this film is right about the Anti-Intelligent-Design behaviours out there....
Sorry, but I really won't be convinced this film as false about the Anti-Intelligent-Design behaviours out there as long as this film is in the Religion section and has such an upfront negative review like that....
Do you even make sense to yourself, for you certainly don't to me.
To state it simply, intelligent design is illogical and unsupported by evidence. As it posits the existence of a supreme being, it is theology (or religion) and not science.
I suggest you read the decision in Kitzmiller v. Dover School District which is on the internet. There is also a fine documentary about this case on this website.
From your last two posts, you need more than a moderator.
I just couldn't watch it.....
And to all the Id peoples out there ; filling the blanks with themagicmandidit isn't science.
Well done Ben Stein. This documentary tells the truth and those who don't like it are sure to try to bring it down. The battle is on against an atheistic culture that can no longer reason.
1. What's the matter with an atheistic culture?
2. What makes you think that an atheistic culture can no longer reason?
3. What makes you think that this documentary tells the truth?
4. What makes you think that Ben Stein has anything amounting to intelligence?
5. What makes you think that you have anything amounting to intelligence?
That is the stupidest thing I've read all week.
(Maybe God will deliver your message to Ben while he's busy NOT delivering anyone from the horrors of a made-up hell).
No Atheist will try to "bring down" this movie- it's too darned amusing!
You mean like "Expelling" this documentary to the Religious section instead of the Science section? Or even Conspiracy section? It's the Athiests who WANT it in the Religious section. What better arguement against something that challanges Athiests than to have it seen as illegitamate from the get go ("oh it's in the Religious section...can't take it seriously now...")...then Athiests can avoid having to deal with it. If Storks don't bring Babies...you should be able to say why...not just say "that's rediculous...we're not going to entertain that idea"....
but it fundamentally is a religious argument. intelligent design stems from creationism. it implies a supernatural creator. it is religious.
Why is this Science documentary "expelled" into the Religion section?
LOL its not science that is why. it is completely religious and has no science in it.
it would be as if a group of people that wanted to teach that storks bring babies got mad if they werent allowed to teach sex education.
Apparently this film is true...there really is an agenda to expell anything contrary to Darwinian Athiesm by first labeling it as inferior and then expelling it away from view/topic/conversation so it can't have a chance to prove itself otherwise.
"Apparently this film is true . . . " Where do you get your information?
From comments like yours. Pretty much all the "against" comments I've read here about this film are the kinds of comments/reactions from pro-Atheists that this film shows exist. I've not read any "against" comment that has me thinking, "yeah, this movie is totally off...those sentiments don't exist"...quite the opposite actually.
First, you haven't answered my question.
Secondly, all the "pro-Atheists" I've met and read seem to be more knowledgable and intelligent than you've shown yourself to be. So guess with whom I side.
1st: I answered your question.
2nd: Your own. Duh.
Anyways: One reasonable logic for this film being in the Religion section is that Atheism is a Religion and Intelligent Design is a topic that belongs under the Atheist Religion umbrella.
I mean...what else could Atheism fall under if not under Religion? Atheism is not 9-11/Arts and Artists/Biography/Comedy/Conspiracy/Drugs/Economics/Environment/Health/History/Military and War/Music and Performing Arts/ Mystery/Sexuality/Media/Nature and Wildlife/Politics/Philosophy/Psychology/Society/Technology/Sports/For Preview Only. Atheism as a theory is technically a Philosophy so Atheism films could go under Philosophy. But what this film trys is asking why such Anti-Intelligent-Design behaviour? Intelligent Design is really only an Atheist topic. Deists/Theists don't discuss Intelligent Design. It's neat if they find that it's true. But Deists/Theists don't need it to be proven for them to be Deists/Theists. Intelligent Design really only smacks in the face of Methodological Naturalist Atheism. So as an Atheist topic, perhaps TDF has this film in the Religion section per Atheism films belonging in no other section then the Religion section.
Or perhaps TDF wants viewers to consider Intelligent Design films as non-scientific and akin to religious propaganda...thus expelling this film to he Religion section.
Hey wait a second...the preview of this film is pretty biased on how it attempts to lead the viewers into a negative opinion of the film instead of just explaining the topics brought up by the film and letting viewers form their own opinions (like reviews of most of all the other documents on this site).
Hmmm...and I'm asked where I get my ideas that this film is right about the Anti-Intelligent-Design behaviours out there....
Sorry, but I really won't be convinced this film as false about the Anti-Intelligent-Design behaviours out there as long as this film is in the Religion section and has such an upfront negative review like that.
1st: I answered your question.
2nd: Your own. Duh.
Anyways: One reasonable logic for this film being in the Religion section is that Atheism is a Religion and Intelligent Design is a topic that belongs under the Atheist Religion umbrella.
I mean...what else could Atheism fall under if not under Religion? Atheism is not 9-11/Arts and Artists/Biography/Comedy/Conspiracy/Drugs/Economics/Environment/Health/History/Military and War/Music and Performing Arts/ Mystery/Sexuality/Media/Nature and Wildlife/Politics/Philosophy/Psychology/Society/Technology/Sports/For Preview Only. Atheism as a theory is technically a Philosophy so Atheism films could go under Philosophy. But what this film trys is asking why such Anti-Intelligent-Design behaviour? Intelligent Design is really only an Atheist topic. Deists/Theists don't discuss Intelligent Design. It's neat if they find that it's true. But Deists/Theists don't need it to be proven for them to be Deists/Theists. Intelligent Design really only smacks in the face of Methodological Naturalist Atheism. So as an Atheist topic, perhaps TDF has this film in the Religion section per Atheism films belonging in no other section then the Religion section.
Or perhaps TDF wants viewers to consider Intelligent Design films as non-scientific and akin to religious propaganda...thus expelling this film to he Religion section.
Hey wait a second...the preview of this film is pretty biased on how it attempts to lead the viewers into a negative opinion of the film instead of just explaining the topics brought up by the film and letting viewers form their own opinions (like reviews of most of all the other documents on this site).
Hmmm...and I'm asked where I get my ideas that this film is right about the Anti-Intelligent-Design behaviours out there....
Sorry, but I really won't be convinced this film as false about the Anti-Intelligent-Design behaviours out there as long as this film is in the Religion section and has such an upfront negative review like that.
no that is not true at all. if there is any evidence that goes agains evolution it would be the focus of attention and the discoverer would be given millions in grant money.
Peep Dis!
I ACTUALLY DID WATCH THIS ENTIRE DOCUMENTRY.
After watching this I took a moment to skim the comments below and found it curious to see how desperate some people are to dismiss, this documentary and do their darndest to discourage anyone else from seeing it.
FIRST LETS REVIEW THE “OFFICIAL” REVIEW:
My father likes to say that a faulty premise will always bring about a faulty conclusion. So true!
The first faulty premise in this “Review” is that Stein “paints science as the root of this evil.” This is simply not accurate.
Heres the truth. To the contrary, Stein glorifies and admires science and scientific discovery; for example all the amazing new knowledge we are finding about our universe, mathematics and probability, as well as current insights into the complexity of our DNA and Cell Biology. What Stein does do is not so much “paint”, but methodically unmasks the hypocrisy of how many leaders in Science and Academia zealously distort science to support their own (highly faith-based) beliefs in Atheism (The Un-Religion) and Macro-Evolutionism; viciously attacking and expelling anyone who would dare even to question their faith.
The 2nd faulty premise is the straw man argument that “If this persecution of dissidents was happening I would think he’d go and talk to people still working in the field and cite his examples for scrutiny. This never happens.” To be fair few people are ever persecuted or expelled by any establishment for supporting it! Imagine someone saying that for example youth trapped in Christian Boarding schools who use physical abuse as “godly punishment” not speaking out from inside their situation to try to discredit people who escape those situations and have the courage to speak out. I think these types of arguments tell us more about the person doing the review than anything else.
Also the review states that “He only sticks to questions concerning how life began.” Also no true.
Stein takes great pains I think to get a clear picture of what Evolutionism is and is not; that is to say it was never an explanation of how life began; but only a theory of how life evolved once it was here. Darwin’s theory doesn't begin until you have the first cell.
By far THE BIGGEST FIB in this review is that Stein “doesn’t even really talk to them about why Intelligent Design is rejected by the scientific community versus why evolution is taught.”
In reality much of the film has Stein dispassionately going back and for to proponents of Evolutionism and Intelligent Design asking very tuff questions to all to try to get to the hear of this very question.
This reviewers description of Steins interaction with Michael Ruse is also telling. In actuality Stein does credit him and introduces him as a prominent proponent of Evolutionism. What really struck me about that exchange was the pompous presentation of Ruse presenting his theory that life on earth began by molecules piggy backing on the backs of crystals, and of course with crystals there are mistakes and mutations and in this process OF COURSE you get more and more complexity until you have life! Its fascinating to me that if Michael Ruse had mused that life on hearth could have begun by the god Poseidon slamming his crystal trident into the primordial soup and magically aligning the molecules that clinging to it to create life, Dr Dawkins might resort to cheesy put downs, calling him stupid, ignorant, or totally insane.
I think the people who come off most credible when talking about this subject are those that aren’t' made punch drunk with the wine of their own self importance or intelligence. I think to honestly tackle these big questions requires great humility.
“Admitting our biases is the best way to rational discussion”
I notice that you have omitted the real reasons for those professors being terminated. contrary to those posited by Stein.
I notice that you have omitted the moronically embarassing conversation of Mr. Stein with Dr. Dawkins, especially the asinine and inaccurate commentary in the background.
I notice that you have omitted Mr. Stein's idiotic and ignorant
use of Nazi Germany to justify the necessity for belief in a supreme being.
Why don't you face it, Stein lacks the intelligence or the ability to ask anyone "tuff" questions much less analyze issues.
I haven't omitted anything not worth omitting.
I do want to use that omitted word and say that you have omitted links/references to your claims of "real reasons" and "emarassing conversation" and "use of Nazi Germany." Without links/references I'm going to have to call you out as a truth fabricator.
But hey...if it makes you happy...eh hem..."Stein lacks the intelligence or ability to ask anyone "tuff" questions much less analyze issues." Happy?
Now, what Stein doesn't lack is the ability to bring to the forefront the anomosity that exists Against Intelligent Design ideas and theorists.
So far you haven't said anything that has me re-thinking that perhaps the films is wrong about the existance of anti-intelligent-design behavior. The one thing you asked me to look up only had me more convinced that there IS alarming behavior against Intelligent Design (Kitzmiller v. Dover).
The embarassing conversation between Stein and Dr. Dawkins is right in the documentary as is Stein's moronic use of Nazi Germany to justify a belief in a higher being. Another documentary on this site provides the real reasons behind the terminations of those professors which it turns out were wholly justified and had nothing to do with intellectual freedom contrary to what Stein (and his creationist sponsors) would have us believe.
And speaking of truth fabricators, what about Mr. Behe who lied about the flagellum during the trial in Kitzmiller and the member of the school board who lied about having provided creationist textbooks to students, behavior typical of those who support intelligent design as the perusal of any intelligent design publication will reveal. If intelligent design is valid, why do its proponents have to lie, misstate and deceive to support it.
I know I'm being a fool to appeal to your judgment ("I haven't omitted anything not worth omitting"--hah!).
The animosity against intelligent design isn't alarming; it's deserved, especially considering the idiocy propounded and the caliber of the individuals propounding it.
Ben Stein is a staunch Zionist and supporter of oppression and apartheid. He was a speech writer for Richard Nixon. He understands the intricate workings of propaganda and the general bullshitting of the public. I wouldn't waste my bandwidth!
If it's true that there is "No Intelligence Allowed", then Ben Stein is a man who always plays by the rules.
Im sorry but I only manged to watch on hour of this Doc as I could bare iy no longer. It like many others of its kind have no substance.
How can you be the most pretensions person on the planet and produce a documentary with zero substance? … Fast intercuts of painfully typical, pointless, sarcastic stock footage, ten second snippets of what was probably hours and hours of interviews, however filmed only for the inflammatory or solely expected parts within them, whiny as-a-matter-of-fact game show host. This documentary feels like it was produced by Mtv.
I didn’t find anything of interest in this and I think its title should be considered at face value, more of a literal description of its content than its posturing, ironically intended meaning.
I was really hopping for some new age take on Intelligent Design “theory” or at least a laugh but I got neither. This doc was really trashy.
However, this is a fantastic website though isn’t it? I haven’t watched cable television for a year now … because I’ve been engaged to something else. High-five Top Doc! You rock! Let’s get married.
@BigRatings
Ben Stein's Flunked: No Intelligence Allowed.
I apologize for not having provided it.
I think your question might be answered by another documentary about "No Intelligence Allowed" on this site.
Why does the description of the documentary sound more like a negative comment?
I think your question might be answered by another documentary about "No Intelligence Allowed" on this site.
Which documentary?
@WesB
If I tell you what was in a dinosaur's stomach at the time it was frozen solid, then back that up with what was in other dinosaur's stomachs at about the same time and then draw conclusions on the dinosaur's diet, I have gone through a scientific and logical progression. If I conclude that a certain dinosaur was a predator based on an examination of its structure, once again I have gone through a logical and scientific progression. Intelligent design offers no such logical progression. It merely argues without proof or support that the complexity of things is beyond nature (an untruth) and irreducible (another untruth) and therefore this must all be due to an intelligent creator. Its only "evidence" is the complexity of things. This is far from a different conclusion based on the evidence; it's an unsubstantiated quantum leap based on falsehood.
The concept of "no one was there so we can't know" or "I don't see it, therefore it does not exist" is too puerile for a person of your intelligence, considering some of the issues you have raised.
But let me set you straight on one thing: the distinction between micro and macroevolution is a myth dreamt up by creationists. It's all evolution.
For some interesting reading and viewing, try the decision in "Kitzmiller v. Dover School Board." It's on the internet and there is a fine documentary on this site.
Keep up the research and especially the thinking.
I am failing to see how Evolution is less theoretical than Intelligent Design. To my understanding, the only thing that science has proven in favor of evolutionary theory is that species share similar DNA and Chromosomes which is made plain by mere observation. There have not been any fossils found that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that humans and apes have evolved from a common ancestor. I know that there have been fossils discovered that depict primates that could walk upright but does that prove common ancestry or an extinct species of primate? If that is a common ancestor than why do we not see others like the chimpanzees walking upright. Did humans just get lucky enough to catch that DNA that the chimps missed out on?
I am not trying to be confrontational, just asking questions and would love a good respectable discussion if anyone has any thoughts.
@WesB
I have this thought for you! Get an education and open your eyes.
Are you trolling?
That's not quite the discussion that I was looking for but thanks for the thought.
Observation from evidence is what it's all about. Thus, evolution has it all over intelligent design which uses none. A theory in the scientific sense implies a direction in which the preponderance of the evidence points and is not synonymous with its more popular use to mean conjecture, such as the conjecture of intelligent design.
To quench what appears to be a sincere thirst, I suggest any of Richard Dawkins' works, especially "The Ancestor's Tale." One of the interesting points Dr. Dawkins makes is that even without fossils, we can determine the "ancestor's tale" based on DNA. Furthermore, Dr. Dawkins answers your inquiry regarding chimps and genetics in general far better than I can, as he has the scientific training which I lack.
Thanks for your inquiry.
I suppose Intelligent Design does have to rely more heavily on philosophical theory than evolution. A response such as, "That's just the way it was created," compared to, "This fossil or this DNA strand possibly shows common ancestry," doesn't quite measure up.
Does "The Ancestor's Tale" draw from the Chromosome 2 discovery? I must say that Chromosome 2 is an interesting finding and I have heard good debates on both sides. Again though, I see these things as more similarity among species rather than sharing a common ancestor. I have not read Dawkins' books but I have heard lectures. I will have to look into his works in further depth.
Thank you for a respectful reply.
Anything that must rely on philosophy for its justification, such as intelligent design, is scientific bunk. In short, there is nothing intelligent about intelligent design. You might find it enlightening to read the article on it in Wikipedia.
While there is considerable discussion of chromozomes in "The Ancestor's Tale," I cannot recall if Dr. Dawkins goes into chromozome 2 in any great detail, as he is basically writing for a lay audience. However, as I understand it, research into this chromozome is one of the main bases for asserting the common ancestry of all living things.
I find that both interspecial and intraspecial similarity are both evidence of a common ancestor. Compare the arms of a man, the wings of a bird and the fins of a fish.
I see your point. It would seem that intelligent design is failing in comparison in bringing scientific findings to support their ideas. There is nothing scientifically intelligent about intelligent design because it looks at what science has observed of species and concludes that because their design is intricate, complex and purposeful, something intelligent must have created them.Intelligent design is not anti-science but simply comes to a different conclusion based on scientific discovery.
Now, that is most definitely because they approach science with a circular reasoning mindset but does evolution not do the same? An evolutionist compares arms, wings and fins and says that these similarities show common ancestry (of course that conclusion is based on other biological, skeletal, etc. similarities as well). But in the end, that's all that either side has, similarities. And taking observation into account. We have nothing that has been discovered proving macro-evolution took place, but assumes that based on what has been discovered,the findings show evolution and since no one was there to witness anything, intelligent design has no defense against the assertion. Which of course is the same problem that intelligent design faces when trying to promote themselves; we weren't there to observe it, therefore it isn't scientific. So should we not say the same thing for evolution then? It seems to me that all they have is all that the intelligent design community has, similarities.
Of course I could be missing something which is why I will look in to Dr. Dawkins further.
Maybe all species' upper extremities are in the image of God? That intelligent design would have less credibility than seeding by aliens or a molecule becoming organic from the back of an inorganic crystal is ridiculous. But more importantly, that this cannot be discussed without scientists being fired is frightening.
@WesB
My apologies, I thought you were trolling.
I would add "The Selfish Gene" and "The Extented Phenotype" both by Dawkins to robertallen1's excellent suggestions.
"He doesn’t even really talk to them about why Intelligent Design is rejected by the scientific community versus why evolution is taught."
Pssst... Intelligent Design is rejected by the scientific community because IT IS NOT SCIENCE. Evolution is taught because it is based on scientific evidence. ID is a philosophy, not a biological science. There's no reason to not teach ID, it just shouldn't be taught in a science class.
[...]you will find that this documentary is overly biased[...] Scientists who have allegedly had their lives ruined because of their belief in something called “Intelligent Design.” Science isn’t here to persecute people’s beliefs and this concept would probably outrage anyone…[...]
You have to admit the irony is overwhelming.
At the end, that doc shows that the main narrator already had his own opinion made up.
And it take a while before we realise what that doc is all about.
Other than that, it's nice to hear scientists justifying their views.
I watched this for the laughs, Mates! This is probably the funniest I have ever found Mr. Stein.
I recently watched "Why people laugh at creationists" and thought it only fair to watch this as to have a non biased perspective on the issue. I honestly commend any scientist who has to put up with anyone who takes this kind of material seriously. This whole documentary is about how people with ideas on creationism and more so Intelligent Design are being bullied and denied their birth right of free speech. They want to become part of the field of science and offer their views, however they have on numerous occasions tried this and failed due to their sheer lack of evidence and knowledge which is exactly what science is based around. Nobody is denying their right to free speech they can say it all they want, but if they want to come into the field of science and say it, they're going to need need to have alot more backup. Hence this is the reason for the Discovery Institute's tiny offices lost somewhere in the downtown area of an American City.
Every piece of what they would call evidence against Darwinian theories can be properly refuted in the "Why People Laugh At Creationists" videos in a well put and logical manner. Even how one of the main interviewee's in this Documentary would not stand up for intelligent design in the trial spoken about in this film.
This documentary dramaticises its points in order to make them sound more solid using phrases like Darwinism, which makes it sound like a definite solution that people follow, is hollow as its well known that all ideas brought up by Newton and Darwin and so on have been refined and re tested and refined and retested over and over again, however this documentary acts like scientists still strictly believe in Darwin's first ideas when this is completely untrue but as I say this is a dramatic technique.
If people want to challenge science properly with their ideas they need to offer proof or statistical analysis or something to give some depth to their ideas. Don't just make a documentary and act like the victim when you have been ample opportunity to offer your views.
I agree with views about taking all views with a pinch of salt even if they are scientifically proven but when u try to then pass off the idea of Creationism and Intelligent Design after that statement you are only taking advantage of skeptics!
I have no qualifications in science or anything like that this is just a normal logical persons view on the whole thing which i think is pretty straight forward!
very well said......long winded but well said : ) (joking) i also watched this to counterpoint why people laugh at creationists and found myself appalled that people are being presented with this drek as fact when there is nothing of substance here I feel sorry for the children that get indoctrinated at an age where they cant form a proper opinion on such matters
If you are to believe in macroevolution, you've got to believe that atheistic scientists don't let their personal beliefs influence their interpretations of scientific findings.
I don't believe.
how is it possible to belive in microevolution and not macroevolution It is exactly the same thing there is no difference it only happens on a longer timescale. Microevolution just proves that genetic drift is possible look what we have done to dogs just in last 500 years do you think that if left alone to breed as they see fit they will all revert to wolves again they are changed forever that is how new species are created (for lack of a better term) and each of those different sub species will go on to look less and less like the commen dog ancestor and what do you think directed breeding would do in 2 million years? I bet we could produce a creature that wouldnt even look like a dog evolution works the same way as directed breeding but instead of nutering the animal the ones that dont breed are dead because they werent successful at finding food evading a predator or whatever
@Julio Medina
Perhaps you've heard something about current strains of bacteria resistant to every known antibiotic? Maybe you've had problems getting rid of cockroaches due to their developed immunity to insecticides? In case you haven't guessed it, these are common, everyday occurrences of evotion.
If it's more proof you're after, how about a trip to the zoo, a trek through the woods, an excursion to the farm--Darwin did all these and came up with something. You've obviously done none of these and have come up with nothing.
Don't insult science by confounding acceptance of evolution with belief in your cheap sense of the word. Evolution achieves its support through physical evidence and nohing else! Can you come up with anything more salient, consistent and intellectually satisfying?
So before you go spouting off at the pen with your dangerous ignorance, learn whereof you write!!!
very very well said.
Thank you.
@Vlatko...would it be possible that at the bottom where the page number are, that you add a little box where one can type the exact page where one wants to go. It would facilitate re-reading past comments, and skipping the pages one wants to skip?
pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeee
az
Good idea, hardly ever takes you to the post on the link, have to search, and for some posts that are loooong, I don't even bother.
I usually get to the link, but I definitely preferred the way the posts were displayed in the past. Also, don't think typing the page you want helps a lot - even if you know on what page the comment you wanted to review was, it may have changed in the meantime due to the reply system which makes all the posts move. It is a bit messy in my opinion...
@WTC7:
Yes, I also definitely liked the way the posts were displayed in the past, a person could scroll through them like a running commentary, from the oldest to the newest with no lags in between. Like reading a book. With this system everything seems disjointed, goes all over the place. Does not give you a crux to the matter.
No, giving the page number wont work , as the pages change constantly. And most replies have to look for them, wont go directly to the post.
On docs that have a lot of posts, don't feel like looking through hundreds of posts for the reply's. So usually don't bother. Need patience which I do not seem to have, lol.
subtitles?
The Reagan speech thrown in at the end was the icing on the cake! I don't hate religious people, but I sure as hell hate Reagan. If an afterlife exists I hope whoever happens to be there is smacking Reagan like a bitch!
Your not even old enough to have a opinion on Reagan. You were not even alive when he was president. I suppose your hero is Carter.
I'm not old enough to harken back to Roosevelt's New Deal program, but I am informed about it. You see, there is this marvelous thing you can do on your own time called "Research". Perhaps you should try it some time. Also, the notion that you have to be old enough to have an opinion on a historical figure you weren't alive to see is a fallacy. I suppose you weren't alive at the time Hitler was in power. Does that mean you shouldn't be able to have an opinion on his methods of governing?
Alexer,
I still love you. :X
There is one very profound point Christopher Hitchens made: believe whatever you want but leave the rest of us alone. It is as simple as that.
Then where would the process of civilization go?
Leaving something alone is just an easy way of
saying. I don't want to be contaminated by the idea
of science or anything other than God.
To me, its a cop out. What would we learn if we left
this alone?
It is a rare success to persuade someone who is commited to a religious belief, of any type, to look at possible alternatives. I am suggesting that they stop proselytizing their particular brand, stop tampering, or trying to tamper, with secular laws and, as hard as it may be, to live quiet lives at peace with others. Perhaps you are right; it is a cop out, but I feel we would all be better off if religion were kept personal and not loud, political, nasty, dogmatic and devisive so that we could act as a common species solving the same serious problems we have on this pale blue dot.
This is the whole point of the movie. The politics of "Science" have gone beyond science and imposed beliefs that do not leave the rest of us alone.
For your statement to have any basis at all you have to assume equivalence - that is that both the big white guy in the sky and scientific hypothesis are of equal merit. In any event, "Science" is not a belief, it is a process by which a theory is proposed, evidence is weighed and a consensus is reached pending discovery of better evidence. Religion on the other hand is a belief, it by definition has to be founded on faith and if you turn on the spotlight of any rational consideration of its claims it disappears into a puff of smoke.
I enjoyed the movie, I think we should like everything else in media thrown at us take it with a grain of salt. It encourages discussion and motivates people to think about what they are being taught rather than spewing back out what ever a professor tells you. This goes for people of any opinion in any field of study, your beliefs cannot be your own until you thoroughly and completely analyze and discuss them. Also to think critically about any subject you must put aside rampant emotion and petty agendas.
ok, but it does not change the fact that this movie labels science as freedom of speech or opinion.....this doc is an abomination!!! This creationist/ID perspective is purely belief and opinion. Science is about FACTS......If you want to go by facts watch "why people laugh at creationists." Ben Stein is an extremely narrow minded and paranoid individual. It is actually painful to watch...
if you were in science class learning how babies are born and someone argues with the teacher and claims storks bring babies what do you do?
that is exactly the same as saying life doesnt evolve but just pops into existence suddenly.
Kind of like the universe just popping up all of a sudden or the first cell. Evolution is a religion!!! It requires one to believe when there is no proof.
@Julio Medina
evolution is a fact.i am tired of educating the ignorant. i always wondered why some are rude on this site now i understand. evolution has nothing to do with the start of the universe or the beginning of life. evolution is a fact i will provide you with the evidence for evolution (empirical ) if you can show the same for whatever crackpot alternative you hold dearly. is that fair? you say evolution is a religion here is Websters definitions show me where evolution fits "the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith " if you are going to attack evolution at least have a basic education in what you are attacking
Most physicists don't attack religion because they don't take it seriously enough to even be called atheists.
@none in particular and everyone in general
Been following this eternal argument here (and elsewhere) with excitement and wanted to make a couple of observations or even philosophical conclusions (excuse me but english is my second language)
First is the issue of Hierarchy that exists in the universe, from the lightest atoms to Canis Majoris to the food chain with us at the top of it; it is only fair to assume that spirits too or god must be in their trilion trillions as there are universes, which means they all have someone above them who is the real dude,the
main man so what he does is he "raises" gods who in turm are given the job of running their own universe,
eg create it according to their image, obviously one god is anthropomorphic, another maybe like the Aliens movie creature and subsequent E.T. creatures come form their respective god (or star or even universe?)(if God exists in this sort of arrangement it is somewhat acceptable, because he is not perfect like his creation; we cannot tell yet, but soon - I hope in my lifetime- we will know if our god has excelled or screwed up with his model!
Secondly, even if an alien kind so technologically advanced to travel so fast for such long periods of time their social advancement would be of such a level they would have solved the mystery by now. The answer may be Panspermia (voila!)
Alien1: you still driving around in that old banger?
Alien2: seems unbelievable doesnt it? it weighs 1 trillion tonnes but it goes like a bullet, must be this stardustium I get at my local garage:P)
@Achems~
Look AR...I'm just busting. It's not really an attack on your name. I'm kidding. You know...a self-parody of spellcheck police.
Now that's a great peice of christian right propaganda. I like how they give the theory of evolution an ism, very nice touch.
@Vlatko,
Is there a reason why my comments will not go through?
Moreover... PS:
Please cite it correctly. The preferred spelling is "Occam's Razor", named after the English philosopher, William of Occam (1300-1349). "Achems Razor" sounds more like a sneeze all over a bathroom shaving mirror.
I must say throughout the first 3 quarters of the film I found it funny as much as tragic because while being pretty silly it is perceivable that the more simple minded and uneducated could be persuaded by it. But the last 20 minutes just leave me disgusted and furious. Taking eugenics, facism and communism out of context in such a cheap manipulative way is incredible. What a disgusting person could milk the suffering and murder of millions to drive home his cheap point. This nauseating populist deserves nothing less than a firm smack in the back of his head for exploiting the tragedies that other people had to endure.
Whatever might be thought about design, evolution and all the problems of bias and fraud found within academia, whomever wrote the 4000 word spiel clearly hadn't viewed the film.
On a related note, it is interesting that this web site pretends to make the entire film available but in reality does not. One might suspect that enlarging the audience and thus increasing informed debate on this film and the issues of concern are the very last things its critics desire.
No, the phase we are in now is pre-class one civilization, when we achieve class one, all this god stuff will be gone, class two, will be able to control any threats from trying to blow ourselves up and any threats from space, meteors, asteroids, etc: class three, we will shoot for the stars!
Well if the God stuff is passe and the quantum revolution is the next phase, what does that make the current phase?
The capitalist phase?
(sarcasm..)
Cut to the chase, getting tired of some of this nonsensical verbage.
"People that talk in metaphors should shampoo my crotch."
Getting back to science. "There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory this has already happened!"
All this God stuff, ID, Creationism, is passe, the quantum revolution is the next phase.
@Maargen
The problem is indeed reading comprehension, because a lot of what you've said is incomprehensible because unclear and inconsistent.
Leaving it aside that you quite plainly *did* conflate the concepts of detecting the presence or past effect of purposeful action and detecting the motives that explain that action... you leave it unclear whether you're arguing with the concept of inferring agency, or just saying it's 'not science'. If you're saying that the appearance of design can be explained by known physical causes, so while there may be intention behind those causes, such a suggestion is superfluous (the coherent, if overstated position of neo-darwinism), then I disagree.
If you're not saying that, but saying that agency may well be the best explanation, but such a position isn't science, then the blind watchmaker hypothesis is not science by your criteria either-- even if were the best explanation.
I find it most confusing when you say that inferring the existence of a designer from design is the purview of philosophy-- I would have thought it was more a matter of grammatical consistency. If words can't be understood to have any meaning whatsoever we can't get started with philosophy or anything else that involves them.
If I'm rambling somewhat it comes as a result of trying to unpick the tangled and unorganised web of your statements.
What are the 'applications' use of the idea that the appearance of design is the result of random mutation and selection? No direct ones whatsoever, it merely serves as an overarching framework within which to make sense of data. In that way, it may play a constructive role, but the conceptual framework in which the Sun was thought to go round the Earth has played a constructive role for navigators in the past. If agency, design, intention, or whatever you want to call it is a better explanation to infer from the evidence, then it may provide a better conceptual framework. And besides all that, science is primarily about describing reality irrespective of utility.
@peelingpaint:
And yes, much od Richard Dawkins work *is* philosophy. When he speaks about his belief that there is no God, he is making a philosophical statement, not a scientific one.
@peelingpaint:
Is the problem just reading comprehension here??
QUOTE: [But your implication that ID suggests that the we can know everything *about* the intention, such as ‘why’ it was done, or whether the motive was ‘good’ is false, it only says that we can rigorously judge that there *was* an intention, that whatever we’re looking at was done *purposefully*.]
I made no such implication.
QUOTE: [If you think it was an easy point to counter, then you shouldn’t have made it]
Again - I didn't. What I said was that any inferences drawn about the existence and nature of a designer from the design was outside the realm of science, since science is only concerned with describing the design in naturalistic, material terms.
"Attention all students: Those interested in arguing for the existence of a designer from the existence of the design, please step down the hall to Philosophy class, where you can cover the same ground Thomas Aquinas did centuries ago. This happens to be Biology class, and we do not discuss that here."
And again, let's say every biologist in the world throws up their hands and says "great, you win. There's a designer behind the design" where would the "science" of Intelligent Design take us next?? After postulating that one thing, what breakthroughs, what methods, what applications, what predictions have any IDers ever suggested?? Maybe now that we know there's a designer, when there's a disease rather than looking to see if it's caused by some biologically evolved mutation or some other material cause that we should counter in some material way, we'll focus our research on finding out how to contact the designer to design us a cure?? Seriously, what's the big idea behind ID "science"?
@D-K
Right. So agency itself displays specificity and complexity. You say that my assertion that there' no known purely physical law that can produce it is an argument from ignorance. If by that you mean that the blind watchmaker mechanism of random mutation.. etc, is known to be able to produce it, then I deny that, not from 'ignorance', because I'm aware of the standard arguments for that idea, but because I think those arguments are flawed. If you meant that, then as I say, some very secular biologists would disagree with you and say that agency is the only thing we know of that can cause specified complexity, because the blind watchmaker can't. Of course some of them suggest that 'self-organisation' can be completely physical-- but it seems pretty much an empty phrase to me- like 'punctuated equilibrium', but I digress again...
Perhaps you meant something else though, like snowflakes or weather systems display specified complexity.
@D-K
A point I forgot to make was, that even *if* it were true that intelligent design necessarily implies an infinite regression of designers of the designers (which I dispute) then so what? I don't think this scenario is that useful to suggest, but it seems no less strange than the proposition that sentience can emerge from insentient process -- a premise that Dennett et al would have us believe is 'scientific' (tho I'd like to know how it's 'falsifiable'), but I digress...
The point is, ID doesn't try to justify the implications of identifying design, just that design can be identified.
@Peelingpaint:
I fear you may have misunderstood my argument (and intent),
"because anything that displays specificity and complexity can only be produced via agency" agency itself displays specificity and complexity. In fact, I'm not taking any philosophical standpoint, I'm merely making an objective assesment of the logical construct displayed in the section I quoted from you, and point out what I percieve to be a paradox.
"There is no law that we know of that can produce them unaided"
Argumentum ad ignorantiam. Please note I do not attack your premise nor your conclusion, I merely intend to scrutinize the logical mechanics you provide in the assertions you make.
@Maargen
"It doesn’t say anything at all about who put it there or why it was put there – that’s a complete other discipline! What is so difficult for IDers to understand about this?? Maybe a human can look at something another human did and make comments about the motives and state of mind of that other human, but then that’s like speaking to like."
At the risk of sounding like a lawyer, did you or did you not say this? Are you not questioning the concept of rigorously ascertaining motive as opposed to agency irrespective of motive?
If you think it was an easy point to counter, then you shouldn't have made it.
OK then, ID isn't Science, then neither is 'Evolution' in the slippery way it's sometimes used to mean the action of a totally *insentient* process, like 'The Blind Watchmaker' of random mutation and natural selection. ID is philosophy, then fine. Richard Dawkins' books are works of philosophy then.
@D-K
'Narrow functional requirements within a wide range of possibilities' might have been better. i.e. scrabble letters drawn from a bag at random are likely to spell nonsense, but if they spell sentences, they are 'specified' because only *specific* arrangements out of all possible arrangements of those letters could be meaningful sentences.
@D-K
In answer to your 1st point, I disagree that that agent requires an agent ad infinitum. To assert that is only to assert that materialist philosophy is correct, and that insentient physical process is primary, and sentience merely secondary. That's a philosophical premise, and I don't find the philosophical arguments in support of it nearly as convincing as those against.
In answer to your question, I believe I said how they say it can be detected, by a identifying the combination of complexity and specificity (it fulfills narrow functional requirements to produce a result). An example might be any of the posts here. There is no law that we know of that can produce them unaided. A law is simple, as it can be described with an equation. There's no short formula that can contain all the meaning inherent in a written word communication. Randomness can't produce them-- or at least it's so improbable as to be practically impossible. If someone's scrabble hands always spelt out words so they always got rid of all their letters, you'd think they were cheating.
I guess you could say that some posts, including mine perhaps, could have been written by a computer, but even if they were, an agent who understands the English language would have had to program it.
@peelingpaint
"ID proposes that it’s possible to detect there *was* a ‘who’ and a ‘why’ behind certain phenomena, that it’s valid to infer that the action of an agent was responsible for them, because anything that displays specificity and complexity can only be produced via agency, and never through purely mechanistic, or random processes"
I know what ID proposes. Philosophers propose this, and so do theologians. They may all be right, but IT IS NOT SCIENCE.
After inferring the action of an agent, where else is there for ID to go? Will it go on to discuss anything at all about the designer? I never, as you mistakenly claim, suggest the IDers claim we can know everything about the designer, although I understand that claiming that I did gives you an easy argument to counter. I'm saying that since science limits itself to describing the design in naturalistic, materialistic terms, discussion and/or postulation of the designer falls outside of the realm of science. It makes a lot more sense to dicuss this within the realm of Buddhism, or any other theological or philosophical discipline you choose.
There's a distinction between what a physchologist does and what a psychiatrist does, just as there is between what a scientist does and whatever it is IDers do.
@Peeling paint:
"ID proposes that it’s possible to detect there *was* a ‘who’ and a ‘why’ behind certain phenomena, that it’s valid to infer that the action of an agent was responsible for them, because anything that displays specificity and complexity can only be produced via agency, and never through purely mechanistic, or random processes"
By that logic, the agent itself requires an agent, ad infinitum. Secondly, how would ID go about "detecting if there was a 'who' and a 'why' behind certain phenomena"?
PS
Meant to say that Buddhism says that there AREN'T really any 'selves' (before I get a formal reprimand from the grammar Nazis)
@Maargen
Science is the discipline of describing this thing in 100% "engineering" terms. It doesn't say anything at all about who put it there or why it was put there - that's a complete other discipline!
ID proposes that it's possible to detect there *was* a 'who' and a 'why' behind certain phenomena, that it's valid to infer that the action of an agent was responsible for them, because anything that displays specificity and complexity can only be produced via agency, and never through purely mechanistic, or random processes.
If you take issue with that, fair enough. But your implication that ID suggests that the we can know everything *about* the intention, such as 'why' it was done, or whether the motive was 'good' is false, it only says that we can rigorously judge that there *was* an intention, that whatever we're looking at was done *purposefully*.
As a digression, having read about Buddhism, which holds that there really *any* selves, I think that assuming that intention necessarily requires an entity that *intends* can be a bit of a red herring. While I'm not *against* the concept of God, I think it's possible to be an agnostic supporter of intelligent design, thinking that there might be purposeful design without a *designer*. As Behe said, the designer could be *anyone(thing)*, even some kind of 'New Age force'.
@Dennis Dostert: "As far as banshees go, if the evidence for them was even a fraction as good as it is for ID, I might consider them."
Actually, there *is* no evidence for ID. Every argument presented as being "for" ID (irreducible complexity, special complexity, whatever..) is simply a question that is thought by ID proponents to be unanswered by evolutionary theory. I put it that way because in many cases the questions have been answered, but evolution, and science, just isn't understood by ID proponents.
What if I asked you to explain how a plane worked, and told you anything you said about the mechanics of the plane would be a statement about engineering, and anything you said about the person who made the plane would be a statement about psychology? If you understand aerodynamics, you could explain every single part of that plane using 100% engineering terms. If you DON'T understand aerodynamics, when you come to the aileron, after scratching your head a bit and not knowing what it does, you might be tempted to say "maybe the designer put it there for esthetic purposes", or "I don't know why the designer put it there". Those last two statements would be statements of psychology, not engineering.
What if it's not a plane? What if it's something you never saw before...a bacterial flagellum maybe. Science is the discipline of describing this thing in 100% "engineering" terms. It doesn't say anything at all about who put it there or why it was put there - that's a complete other discipline! What is so difficult for IDers to understand about this?? Maybe a human can look at something another human did and make comments about the motives and state of mind of that other human, but then that's like speaking to like. Why IDers, who are for the most part so very religious, keep wanting scientists to be able to presume to see God under a microscope is beyond me! They keep making statements like "God made the Earth look old to test our faith", because although these people can't understand human scientist, apparently they can read the mind of God perfectly well. Cheech...
@ dennis
you said "The argument here is the right to research and express ideas without being fired "
i am assuming the examples you have are the ones expressed in this film. i will show the falsehoods in these claims
Richard Sternberg-claimed he was fired for his views.he wasn't he was demoted for not peer reviewing the article before printing it and according to company policy nobody publishes an article without peer review regardless of subject.
Caroline Crocke-claimed she was fired for mentioning id a couple of times.no she was never fired her contract wasn't renewed at its end and the non renewal was based on the fact she taught disproved facts.
Michael Egnor -wasn't fired but was ridiculed and rightfully so saying evolution is irrelevant to medicine
Michael Egnor-claimed that the university forced him to shut down his website and return grant money. wrong the university asked him to place a disclaimer stating his views weren"t the universities .
Guillermo Gonzalez- said he wasn't granted tenure because of his views.not true he was denied because he stopped publishing papers and bringing in grants to the university. as a side the last 12 applicants for his job were refused tenure as well.
any other persecuted you would like to mention?
@peelingpaint
At least physical causes have evidence to support them, as opposed to spiritual causes which do not. When it comes to science, physical evidence is everything and the preponderance of hard physical evidence unquestionably supports evolution along with everything it entails and continues to support it. This is what matters in science, not philosophical gobbledegook!
You still have considerable trouble expressing yourself clearly. Well, I give up. I guess there are those who try to convince through bluff.
@epicurus
I have read a few of Dawkins's books, and know the arguments for natural selection and mutation being able to create complex form. I also know some counter arguments, such as Dawkins' 'methinx it is like a weasel analogy' being fundamentally (and fairly obviously) flawed.
The main reason that I'm more and more unimpressed with neo-darwinism's staunchest defenders is that NOTHING will count as evidence against the materialist conclusions that they draw from it. For example, we're told that it shows us there's no causes but physical causes, but also, that even if it's shown to be not as solid as is made out, then 'evolution'- a word that can subtly morph into a synonym for a purely physical process- is still true-- because *that* definition of it just HAS to be true- a premise that is purely philosophical. When an apparent fact counts as evidence for a philosophy but it's unreality would have no implications against it, logic goes out the window and it's not really worth listening anymore-- it's uninformative and just amounts to being hectored.
As the evidence against the modern synthesis leaks out people are going 'stop being so damn respectful' (to coin a phrase) of this kind of bluff- well I hope so anyway.
@Dennis Dostert
Wrong! The issue is using science classes to teach science and not being science in any sense of the word, ID does not qualify. In other words, there is no "other side" to present.
Teachers must be held to an acceptable standard within the discipline. Thus, for example, any science teacher who teaches that the earth is only about 10,000 years old deserves to be booted out.
By your reasoning, why not use mathematics classes to present numerology? Why not use astronomy classes to present astrology? Why not use medical classes to present biorhythm?
In short, your argument has nothing to do with academic freedom!
By the way, for the third time, are you related to Léon Dostert?
The argument here is the right to research and express ideas without being fired - that is even the right to be wrong. The article I pointed to does explain the ID position. I don't agree that it is necessarily about God.
@dennis
behe you are kidding right? look up his testimony in the Dover school trial and then trad the rebuttal he was totally torn apart.but to sum up some parts he admitted that by his definition of science astrology would also be a science.he admitted that neither he or anyone else has had a peer reviewed paper published that supports his claims and his own example of irreducible complex systems was shown to be false. then the judge (a christian and republican appointed by bush) found intelligent unconstitutional on the basis that it is about god. just two quick quotes from judge jones
“intelligent design is a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory"
" One consistency among the Dover School Board members' testimony, which was marked by selective memories and outright lies under oath, as will be discussed in more detail below, is that they did not think they needed to be knowledgeable about ID"
@dennis
-what evidence do you have for ID?
-by specified complexity do you mean irreducible complexity and if you do please provide an example
- again i thought id wasn't about god but if it is what proof do you have
I don't know Leon. He could be related. As far as banshees go, if the evidence for them was even a fraction as good as it is for ID, I might consider them. How did all those dedicated cellular machines come into existence? Why is there so much specified complexity? By the way, the evidence for God is considerably better than the evidence for extraterrestrials. Of course Dawkins would never consider the God hypothetical
As far as the question goes, it is obvious that Dawkins was speculating. He said he didn't know the ultimate cause. However, he claims to know what it isn't. He doesn't know that either.
@Dennis Dostert
And banshees could exist!
Why do you leave out the question Dawkins was asked?
Why do you not answer my inquiry as to whether you are related to Léon Dostert?
Dawkins said, "That designer could be a higher intelligence from somewhere else in the universe." Sounds like extraterrestrial intelligence as a possible explanation to me. He could even be right. But we will never know if we reject the possibility out of hand.
It's also very easy to speak/write plainly when you're not. Dr. Dawkins does it.
See your last paragraph. For your edification, "phenomena" is plural; "phenomenon" is singular.
How you express yourself is just as important as what you express and, quite frankly, I cannot fathom what you are trying to express. How about giving plain English a try!
@Robert Allen
Well it's very easy to speak plainly when you're saying nothing more than a collection of Dawkinsesque platitudes and fairly empty assertions that we've already heard ad nauseum.
@over the edge
I sympathise with wanting to call it a day, but I feel there are is a lot of hidden philosophy in those definitions. Why for example does positing agency behind nature not qualify as a conjecture *about* 'the natural world'?
That random mutation and natural selection has built complex form is a hypothesis *about* nature, which asserts that the cause is purely natural-- see the difference between saying that a valid hypothesis must be about *explaining* the tangible and measurable, and saying that a valid hypothesis can only *incur* the tangible and measurable?
I'll also repeat myself for the last time, and point out again that the absence of agency is no more tangible or measurable than the presence of those phenomena. So, what I'm saying basickally, is 'wot's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander'.
@peeling paint
I can see from your last E-mail to me that you are still unable to write lucidly (read: write). Well, this takes time and for those with nothing to speak of, an eternity (gossips, critics and politicians excepted).
The first step is to formulate your ideas (or what passes for them) clearly and in an organized manner, then think them through (at least as well as you can), then put fingers to keyboard and hit the send button. Unfortunately, your apparent dyslexia doesn't help, but try to read and understand this: MY LAST NAME IS ALLEN.
@over the edge
Who defined science in this way? How do you define the 'supernatural'. If it's an unembodied intelligence, how do you know that the consciousness we know of- *ours*, is embodied- as in 'in our bodies'?
That's not a scientific finding either, but another philosophical premise by which they are interpreted.
That the explanation for life must be entirely physical is a premise, but why can't this premise be examined in light of evidence? If it can't be, why should we consider it 'scientific'? Can you see, weigh, smell, touch or measure the *lack* of intention or agency any more than those things themselves?
@peelingpaint
first of all i only speak for myself but the counter hypothesis you speak of is not allowed by science . by its very definition the supernatural has no place in science weather that supernatural "designer is god or something else makes no difference. in my first post i made a point of saying that i am not saying that i am right and others are wrong.only when ID has repeatable,testable and natural explanations for their side can it be included in science. as for other scientific hypothesis that either claim that Darwin got some to all of it wrong i say good . if and when their ideas are proven to be a better explanation then natural selection (note i didn't say Darwin theory since it has been updated since its beginnings) i will accept it as well as scientists in my opinion. unlike religion science has no problem changing and updating when new information and understanding outweighs the current views. but the current view of evolution is still the best we have
@Robert Allan
'Forget the philosophy', when you lot do, and stop calling it 'facts' perhaps.
bloody philistines
@peelingpaint
Forget the philosophy! Stick to the facts!
Why can't you write clearly?
Unimpressed!
God, these 'rationalists' are sanctimonious.
What is the neo-darwinian hypothesis apart from that it's unguided, that changes occur from natural causes and are saved by natural selection? How is that anymore unfalsifiable than ID? After all, you can always say that 'we haven't found the pathway yet, give us time'.
If the neo-darwinian explanation of the *appearance* of design isn't the counter hypothesis to *actual* design, then why do Dawkins and others believe that it's great evidence against God teleology of any kind? 'Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist' apparently. So I guess if his proposed mechanism is not the explanation then it's *not* possible any more? Guess what? Many secular humanist renowned commentators, e.g. Jerry Fodor, Stuarts Kaufmann, and Newman *don't* think the modern synthesis is a convincing anymore. How is it possible for a hypothesis to be valid, but not the counter h ypothesis. (please try and answer without spluttering as if you're esteems patricians and guardians against the dark forces of superstition).
@dennis
science does not try to prove or disprove "supernatural" causes for anything. and by design ID invokes a supernatural cause. how can you in 1 response claim that ID is not about god ,so i and others did not mention god in our responses to you . them you imply that id is being crushed because our fear of the slenderest hint of god. so you are now saying id is about god? to answer your question i have you fear of your imaginary friend and science doesn't want to test it.by the way science IS trying to crush hypothesis that is part of the scientific method they try to disprove all hypothesis and when they can't they will accept it.
@Dennis Dostert
If you are referring to me in the second sentence of your E-mail, I suggest you read my E-mail again. You're right; some of you don't read well--especially you.
I also suggest that you reread the E-mail from "over the edge." Scientists seek facts--they wouldn't be scientists if they didn't and for this reason, a hypothesis as boeotian as intelligent design masquerading as scientific postulation deserves to be crushed, along with those positing it.
Once again, leave science to the scientists!
P.S. Ben Stein is an ignorant fool.
Some of you do not read well. My statement was qualified. Dawkins said "may be responsible" - "apparent design" - "research allowed" to discover an explanation. My conclusion, scientists should seek the facts, but not crush a hypothesis or those who postulate it. I have had personal experience with this crushing. It is real. Ben Stein is right.
What would you call someone who fears the slenderest hint that God might be real? A "deiphobe?"
@Dima, do you have any evidence of crying statues? do you really think if a god was real THAT is how it would show itself?
@Dina
You still have a lot to learn, such as what might be unexplainable one day becomes explainable the next. I suggest you read James Randi's book "Flim Flam" and Martin Garnder's "Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science."
I am a biology major on my fourth year and believe in God, religion not so much, I consider the two mutually exclusive like evolution and abiogenesis. Anyway, there are strange, unexplainable things that happen in churches and other religious establishments such as statues crying tears as in Catholics and in Orthodox religions the icons of Mary or Jesus or any major saint that expel an oily substance on the surface right above the glass of the icon right near the face. These kinds of things along with all the credible scientists that secretly believe in a God is what solidified God for me.
@Dennis
I once had a brilliant linguistic professor named Léon Dostert. Are you any relation to him? Just curious.
Please leave science to the scientists and religion to whom and whatever. "Over the edge" summed it up best.
Also, please be sure your statements are correct before making them. In particular, Stein merely asked Dr. Dawkins if he could posit an interesting theory of the creation of the world and Dawkins obliged him. At no time, did Dawkins state that extraterrestrials might have been responsible.
Also your definition of intelligent design, as least as that term is commonly used, is awry. I suggest you watch Dawkins' The Blind Watchmaker which is on this site and read up on the debate between Paley and Hume.
To sum up the intellectual quality of those espousing intelligent design and fads like it, show me a creationist or ID person who hasn't misquoted, misled, misinformed and downright lied to support his untenable position which is generally attached to a religion or form thereof.
@ dennis
where is your proof. this debate boils down to weather or not there is scientific proof, if this idea (not a theory at all a theory requires testable repeatable proof) has any backing within the scientific method. if you want to have your idea taught in science class you have to follow the rules set up by science. not saying you are right or wrong only that this idea hasn't met the standards of science. it is like me demanding to play in the majors in baseball (even tho i lack the skill) but the rules don't apply to me so as to level the field to make me competitive.
@DENNIS DOSTERT
Agree with you generally, but I think for various reasons that, having postulated agency as a cause, it actually is more reasonable to think it's a non-physical agent than a physical one (though the initial hypothesis of design may not require that). So materialists are right to be suspicious in a way-- but the modern synthesis has materialist implications as well (if it's true), so it cuts both ways. That's probably why some would like to see it crushed, because they realise this, and it's their basic premise that reality is entirely physical, so any hypotheses that may not lead to that conclusion are unscientific by default.
Most of these comments are "either God or religion." Intelligent Design is not about this issue. What it says is that design seems apparent in cellular processes. The source of this apparent design is not clear. Dawkins says extraterrestrials may be responsible. Some research should be allowed which recognizes this apparent design. Maybe some new insights will come from this.
Apparently, some powers in university science departments feel this idea should be crushed. If you agree with this, you are against free inquiry and for scientific orthodoxy. It is the science people who are afraid of possible religious implications, not religious people forcing their views on scientists.
Dawkinsian
@Robert allen
(thanks for the correction Robert, i meant to write feign, there are more typos like "it’s early stages" should be "its" and some others, sorry didnt check my spelling. Also I apologise for adding the word homosexual, I have nothing against them. I am a photographer and use male/female "gay" make up artists, they are lovely people. It was just to expose Ted Haggard's pretentiouness and religidiocity)
Well Robert, I think you've answered your own question there, but
going so far back it is also possible they did refer to a higher
spirit that was like a warden in a correctional institution and then some, ie answering prayers, punishing those who stepped out of line and taking serious action (earthquakes) when he got really pissed off with the people. However, I don't think they could be aware of the concept of evolution simply because it needs some science and we know they were primitive as far as science is concerned. Educated folk know, the earth's core has been shifting since all the dust became a planet,so attributing
earthquakes,typhoons etc to "God" is...well,convenient, like
"it's God who did it...don't need to think about it or try and work out a more plausible explanation...it works, so I 'm off for a sandwich and a cuppa!"
I hope this gives a better picture,
cheers
@Dawkinsian
Your E-mail did me good. However, I offer one small criticism: "fain" as you have spelled it, is an obsolescent word meaning "rather" or prefer." e.g., I fain would go. I believe what you mean is "feign."
Based upon what you've written, I wonder if the malevolent, self-centered, vain, vindictive, overbearing diety portrayed in Genesis and elsewhere is really the ancients' way of describing to the people of their time the vagaries and cruelties of nature (and, of course, evolution). I would appreciate your thoughts.
P.S. I like Richard Dawkins, too.
I like pepper sauce on pizza.
I hear ya all IDers and just want give you a piece of my mind:
So God created the universe, stars, planets, the lot
and he also created mosquitos which suck your blood and give you disease, but he loves you :P
You dont need a god or religion to have morals (no time to elaborate, google the sentence to understand why)
It is not certain that God created man, but quite the opposite is evident: man created god according to his [lower} image i.e angry, testing, vindictive, capricious and above all vain! How else can you explain the eternal punishment of hell for not worshiping him!
Can someone so powerful give a damn what each insignificant short lived entity thinks of him,
I doubt it! In fact I doubt that God is a thinking entity, it is most likely that god is nature:
a tree takes years to grow, a baby takes nine months to be delivered, this is the speed of nature; nature [or god or christ,etc] cannot change the molecular structure of dead tissue in an instant (eg raising a dead person)
If there is a God, it is most likely he was done with this 3 dimensional universe the moment he exploded (one of my assumptions is that he got bored being a spirit and -since he's god - he turned into this incredibly hot molecule that created the big bang) Because otherwise, he's got to be omnipotent and omniscient. Yet we know he does nothing for the suffering while he let's tyrants like hitler, lenin, bushes, cheney, and many others wipe out millions, while they live it up!
Wake up and open your eyes, we're alone! At least in a dark room science gives you a candle to see where you go, religion puts it out and encourages you to walk in the dark!
An eye used to be a light censor before it became a fully functional eye, it worked even at it's early stages (look at snails, in a few million years they will probably develop eyes)
It is cowardly to fain belief just in case there is a God, at least be honest to yourselves.
Religion is full of muppets like Ted Haggard: a vicious, homosexual money collector who is one of the tele evangelists that has been bullshiting all these poor people in order to steal their money in the name of God.....
You need to understand people, it is all symbolic simply because faith can truly get things done but cannot move mountains, sorry.
It is appropriate look at a quote from Abdu'l-Bahá
"Religion and science are the two wings upon which man's intelligence can soar into the heights, with which the human soul can progress. It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition, whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone he would also make no progress, but fall into the despairing slough of materialism."
I see wisdom in this writing of his also...
"When religion, shorn of its superstitions, traditions, and unintelligent dogmas, shows its conformity with science, then will there be a great unifying, cleansing force in the world which will sweep before it all wars, disagreements, discords and struggles--and then will mankind be united in the power of the Love of God."
~Nathan
Apparently, to become a evolutionary biologist, one has to fail in mathematics. How one can understand evolution on the scale nature demonstrates without understanding the improbability of it having occurred is quite beyond me.
What's missing is causal. What is causing the rapid evolutionary changes demonstrated in the geographic record? Natural selection has limitations as demonstrated in the math. There must be some mechanism, a cause, that influences evolution that we haven't seen yet, something like an evolutionary plasmid found only in certain parts of the world that kicks evolution in the butt by causing random yet coherent changes in the dna molecule, carried by an unknown vector. Injected or absorbed into a cell, especially haploid precursor cell(in humans, a sperm or egg), that causes a limited coherent change that is replicated during gametogenesis and causes no harm to the host cell, such a plasmid would act like a "patch", a computer program that modifies existing programming or adds to it, correcting, changing, or in the case of a computer virus, damaging the dna "program". Such minor changes over 2 million years would be unnoticeable in a population, but result in dramatic genetic differences between species with a common ancestor. Find that "causal" and you can rebutt ID. Without a "cause" there can be no "effect".
Since Humans evolved out of Africa, the answer, the cause of human evolution, should be there, should still be floating around in one of the vectors. It's just a matter of looking.
Though the discovery of a natural evolutionary accellerator, if found, will answer how man evolved from a "lower" common ancestor, it does not answer abiogenesis. Understanding abiogenesis and how proteins can be naturally combined to form "life" is the key to answering the question of ID or not ID. Speculation is for hack writers. What is needed is not hypothesis, but proof.
It comes to this: If you can't recreate abiogenesis, then ID must be true. If you can recreate abiogenesis, then ID must be false.
“Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.” Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.
It may even be that the evolutionary subroutine is encoded in our dna (what we consider now to be "junk" dna) that only kicks in during times of environmental stress. But where did it come from?
@peelingpaint
The hell it doesn't! Why do people go to faith healers? In most cases, because they believe there's an omnipotent deity which through the medium of the "healer" can and will cure what can't and won't be cured. Why such an omnipotent deity needs an intermediary to work his alleged miracles is never explained, nor for that matter why this prime mover (read intelligent designer) in his infinite perfection visits such scourges on mankind (some of them caused by living entities which according to intelligent design he himself has created.) Now, when a so-called man of science "has brushes with" such charlatans, he calls into serious question his ability to perform as a scientist, thus engendering distrust of everything he postulates, will postulate or has postulated, such as intelligent design. In short, he merits his ostracism from the intellectual community and the opprobrium which goes with it.
Specific complexity (this is the terminology I learned) seems to stand for the proposition that ultracomplex things must have a creator behind them. The mathematics employed by Demski in its support has been judged by his peers as faulty and incompetent. From my lay point of view, I ask where is the scientific reasoning behind this eldritch conjecture? Are there any facts or proof to back it up? In short, can CSI be proved only by coupling it with bad mathematics and distortion of the laws of probability?
Miller's debunking of Behe's claim anent flagella deserves the praise accorded it. Behe literally lied about (or to be charitable) provided a distorted description of this lower form in a feeble attempt to disprove evolution. Thanks to Miller, he failed. Is this the way the little intelligent design people make up for their inane apostasy and complete lack of evidence?
Not being a scientist or mathematician (actually they're one in the same), I, too, don't fully understand all the technical details (or even part of them) however, I can draw what I believe are logical conclusions (inferences) from what is presented. And what you present is a blind belief in Dembski the Discredited (apparently he has never published a paper in a scientific journal), apparently based on personal appeal rather than intellctual rigor.
In conclusion, valid=right, invalid=wrong. There are a finite number of primes is invalid and incorrect; its antipode is valid and correct. Works just like the rain on the Eiffel Tower, only one of the hypotheses is valid.
@Robert Allen
I didn't know about Dembski and son's brush with a faith healer, but whatever the details, it doesn't have any direct link with his arguments for ID.
CSI stands for 'complex specified information'. It's similar to Paley's idea of what a watch manifests, I think-- complexity to a purpose. Dembski claims to have made the idea rigorous, and provided a way of detecting it.
Whether he has or not, I don't know, but I do think that there is a lot of automatic dismissal-- Miller's 'debunking' of Behe's claim that the bacterial flagellum shows 'irreducible complexity' doesn't deserve to be as lauded as it has been imo. For that and related reasons to do with other (imo) bad arguments on the part of people opposing ID, I personally am sympathetic to the arguments of Dembski and not prepared to take the word of his opponents just because I don't fully understand all the technical details.
I don't think it's illogical to say that two contradictory hypotheses can't be equally valid. I'd say that until the truth is known, a valid hypothesis *must* have a valid counter-hypothesis. In statistics I believe they call it the 'null' hypothesis.
Either it is raining on the Eiffel Tower at the moment, or it isn't. Both are equally valid hypotheses, though one in fact must be wrong.
@peeling paint
Please don't try to snow me. I resent it. I know who William Dembski is. How can you allude for support to a man of science who takes his autistic son to a faith healer and then complains of no cure? However, what I don't know is what CSI is or what the initials stand for in this context (certainly not criminal scene investigation).
Speaking of Dembski, you need to clean up your logic as well. The way you have phrased paragraph 4 admits of only two possibilities. In such a case,the two contradictory statements you have crafted cannot be equally valid.
By the way Wikipedia furnishes an informative article on Dembski. No wonder why he is villfied by so many members of the mainstream academic community!
As for the concept of agency, Plato's demiurge provides a more comfortable pillow than anything knitted by the little intelligent design people.
@Robert Allen
I haven't averred only two possibilities, as I made it quite clear that there are biologists who reject telos and 'the supernatural' but also reject/question the modern synthesis.
The evidence (genetic and phenotypic homologies, fossil record etc) that random mutation and natural selection has been responsible for the origin of body-plans, rather than just variations thereof, is dependent upon certain foundational premises, as is all evidence. In this case, that such a mechanism can do the job. More direct evidence would be evidence that that premise is true. I don't see any evidence that it is.
The difference between alternative, but non-teleological theories, such as 'self-organisation' and Darwin's mechanism, is that we don't *know* whether the former ultimately requires agency as a factor, or not, since it is an incomplete and open-ended theory, like most in physical science. The latter intrinsically assumes that agency is not required.
Surely if it is valid to have as a hypothesis that agency is *not* required, the counter-hypothesis that it *is* must also be valid?
If Dembski is right that biological forms are examples of a real phenomena called CSI, and that the only CSI that we know of comes from agency, would that not be good evidence that agency is responsible? Not conclusive, but a reasonable assumption, I'd have thought.
Or are you saying that we can't physically measure agency, so it can't be a part of a hypothesis? If so, Darwin's theory must be unscientific, unless you can explain how we can measure random mutation and blind selection by the environment (without begging the question).
@peelingpaint
In other words, it can't be proved one way or the other. Averring only two possibilites is myopic, in that this practice displays a blindness to the nature of the subject.
To put it another way, there's plenty of proof for evolution/survival of the fittest (even if our record is incomplete)and possibly for other alternate theories based solely on science (i.e., observation, evidence), not on antithetical leaps of faith.
@Robert Allen
That is, I know what the words mean, but on what basis do you say that? Is it even relevant, when the usual charge against it is that scientific claims need to be falsifiable, rather than capable of being conclusively established?
@Robert Allan
What do you mean 'there can be no irrefutable evidence of it's veracity'?
@PATRICK
You're right. It was the artificial application of what the Nazi believed was natural selection/survival of the fitest. Because Darwin and Malthus were describers, not activitsts, I take umbrage at any blame or opprobrium attached to them for the atrocities of the Nazis. This is far from revisionism.
Last comment was for Robert Allen. Also agency is just as good a hypothesis as mutation and selection-- which, btw, many biologists who reject teleological explanations are also rejecting as being sufficient to explain all biological form.
I can't see much argumentation in these posts, just hyperbole. We all *know* that the majority perception and general consensus is that the modern synthesis is what educated, intelligent people accept, and that ID is for people who aren't really keeping up. You're not telling us anything by repeatedly asserting that.
Why not discuss whether the supposed algorithm of random mutation and natural selection *can* create complex novelty?
Dawkins' 'methinx it's like a weasel' analogy fails imo, because evolution is supposed to have no end in sight, and *also* because strings of nonsense syllables are not functionally fit as sentences-- so there's no 'reason' why they should survive-- apart from an agent allowing them too.
Stein's checkered background bear is an unreliable witness, and it's testimony should be discounted.
Anyway, ROBERT
Eugenics (which finds its roots in Darwin and his associates, though I know he personally didn't favor such things), which is the artificial application of selection principles in absence of natural selection lead inexorably to Forced sterilizations in enlightened countries like the United States. Anyone who argues that Hitler and his cronies didn't eat up the principles described by Darwin and expanded upon by his associates is in complete denial of historic fact.
In fact the first Eugenics law passed was enacted in Illinois, justified by the belief in evolution and natural selection. Obfuscating the truth has a tendency of blowing up in your face. Hitlers death camps were only the inevitable outcome of scientific principles acted upon by those seeking genetic purity in a fictional, romanticized germanic ideal.
You have read about what was going on in Nazi Germany prior to 1939, haven't you? The Nazis were killing off anyone they considered unfit, including Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, the mentally r@#$%^&*... the list goes on.
Did not Darwin agree with Malthus when he considered that the advent of vaccination for small-pox had lead to the survival of less fit humans who would have died off due to lower constitutions? Did not he believe that this meddling would inevitably lead to a Malthusian event? Did not he and his family willingly participate in a selective breeding program among 5 families in close association? Exactly how long do you think we will tolerate your historic revisionism?
@Patrick
Bear in mind two things:
1. God can do anything
2. Like fundamentalists and little ID people, god works in mysterious ways.
Which makes the demiurge all that more comforting and from what I hear, it has little to do with sociopaths.
You're right. Capitalization does not make a statement true; it simply makes it truer.
@Patrick
I hate Newton's prolix version of Occam's Razor as much as I hate his refusal to accpet imaginary numbers, as much as I hate his notation (Leibnitz' was far better) but he is certainly one of the greatest mathematicians ever produced.
Naturally, Occam's razor is far from universally applicable and when misused certainly "allows the obtuse to ignore others."
The score is some number greater than 1 for evolution and 0 for intelligent design. From the way it's explained by its proponents, there can be no irrefutable evidence of its veracity and thus the score tilts more heavily in evolution's favor, that is until something new and improved, but still scientific comes along.
Perhaps Plato's demiurge in its various incarnations through the millennia should be examined alongside intelligent design. At least, the concept of the demiurge has the virtue of possible reconcilement with evolution.
Great title for a horror film: "The Earl of Occham meets Rube Goldberg."
As to explaining the Ascent of man in Creationist Museums and the like....I say Baaaahhhhh Humbug.
Why would God create two sociopaths, tell them not to do something, and expect them do follow through? They were sociopaths, not knowing the difference between good and evil....
Urk...one really doesn't want to look too hard at Genesis, much less the rest of the Old and New testaments. Error abounds in all man's endeavors, including the Bible. Don't get me started. Anyone looking for scientific evidence in these and other writings are barking up the wrong tree.
Further, name calling and TYPING ALL YOUR ARGUMENTS IN CAPS isn't evidence of anything, other than that mentioned about obtuseness.
Hey, if I type EVOLUTION IS A RELIGIOUS APOSTASY PERPETRATED UPON THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY BY COMMUNIST AND PROGRESSIVE ATHIESTS all in bold caps, does that make it true?
Ah...!!! I finally get the Occams Razor thing!
To quote Isaac Newton, "We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances. Therefore, to the same natural effects we must, so far as possible, assign the same causes."[4](Wikipedia)
Wow...but of course it is only a rule of thumb:
In the scientific method, Occam's razor is not considered an irrefutable principle of logic, and certainly not a scientific result.(Widipedia)
The principle allows the obtuse to ignore others.
Even Darwin recognized the place of religion in society, even as in later years he became more and more agnostic.
Since neither evolution nor ID can be absolutely proven without a time machine (an impossibility), and since evolution has more physical evidence in its favor, the principle of Occams Razor would apply...
unless someone found irrefutable evidence of ID.
So...what are we afraid of? Are Scientists afraid of finding proof of God, or merely defending their obtuse stance to maintain tenure? Further, I have yet to see any refutation of the math.
@Achems Razor:
No one's ever been to Occam, but I hear that Ockham in Surrey is somewhat popular.
Incidentally, let me recommend a really superior documentary on evolution entitled "What Darwin Never Knew." One viewing will drive home the inanity of and the distortions contained in the cavilings against Darwin from the mouths (but not the brains)of the little ID people in "Expelled."
@Robert Allen:
You are welcome.
Yes it is deliberate, some commentors use Occam's in reference in their blogs, Achems does not seem to overlap.
Never been to Occam, so do not know if it appears in any modern forms. So will take your word for it.
@Achems Razor
Just one more thing. I have seen a number of spellings for Occam, but never this one. Is this deliberate.
Also, you might be interested to know (if you don't already) that Occam's Razor does not appear in Occam in any of its modern forms.
Thank you.
Reading=vocabulary.
@Robert Allen:
Well said, well written, and thank you for some new (big) well, new to me anyway, words.
I could expatiate on this inane and jejeune documentary, but as I wish not to emulate Mr. Stein, I'll just touch on a few points.
First of all, the opprobrium and ostracism which the intelligent design people claim they suffer at the hands of the dyed-in-the-wool members of the academic community is well deserved. Why not demand similar presentations of eugenics, phrenology and astrology? Why not give equal time to the concepts of number primes or that the possibility of trisecting an angle with just a compass and straight edge.
The little ID people bemoan their well-deserved ostracism, give themselves over to a pseudoheroism arising out of their deviation from accepted norms and enlist academic freedom as their support and justification. THE OPPROBRIUM HEAPED ON INTELLIGENT DESIGN AS WELL AS THOSE WHO ADVOCATE IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ACADEMIC FREEDOM, MR. STEIN!
People have deviated from accepted concepts and remained respected members of the academic community. For example, I was watching a documentary on dinosaurs and one paleontologist (I cannot remember his name) believes that the tyranosaurus rex couldn't have hurt anything ("anyones" were not around at the time). The difference between him and the little ID people is that he bases his contentions, not on some some misplaced, unintellictual or unintelligent faith, but on the very structure of the creature--this is called evidence. I do not know enough to take sides--it's not the point. This paleontologist remains a respected member of the intellectual community and I have not heard anything about his teaching position being on the line.
Using another example, also from paleontology, there are a number of scientists are skeptical that birds evolved from dinosaurs. There is also controversy as to whether flying was preceded by gliding or running. These individuals are still scientsts who rightly deserve the respect they are accorded in the scientific community, for they reach their conclusions by analyzing the evidence and based their results on their science. The caliber of the "expelled" scientists/teachers presented in this documentary is tantamount to the caliber of intelligent design itself. If these "pundits" don't believe Darwin, why don't/can't they come up with alternate scientific theories, rather than caviling about some point of evolution/ survival of the fittest or when they don't know, leaping to the hebetudinous postulation that because things seem so well laid out, there must have been a creator. THIS IS WHY INTELLIGENT DESIGN IS NOT A SCIENCE, BUT A RELIGIOUS BELIEF!
Incidentally those of the ID ilk are far more notorious for distorting, misquoting and outright lying than any evolutionist ever thought of being.
Mr. Stein takes up considerable screen time exhuming that tired cliché of the Nazi's committing their atrocities because of a belief in Darwin--by some convoluted "logic," this makes Darwin and survival of the fittest inherently evil and justifies the need for religion, ostensibly to keep us in check. Naturally, this presentation is accompanied by the usual maudlin display of footage demonstrating (however unnecessarily) for the average viewer what is being talked about. MR. STEIN,GET THIS STRAIGHT, THE NAZIS DID NOT COMMIT THEIR NEFARIOUS DEEDS BECAUSE THEY WERE INSTRUCTED TO BY DARWIN! Darwin merely described and deduced--HE DID NOT ADVOCATE A COURSE OF ACTION!
Quite frankly, Mr. Stein comes off as a pathetic fool and this documentary, coupled with his checkered background bear, witness to the level of Mr. Stein's intelligence and understanding.
@Charles:
Your comment contradicts itself, your first sentence is correct though.
Clarification: that which is eternal has neither beginning (origin) nor end.
I also don't really understand how a belief in the mechanics of panspermia automatically entails belief in life as being eternal. Panspermia/exogenesis details destribution, not origin. Technically, it can explain the advent of man, just not the advent of the extremophiles that are cause to the advent of man (through evolution).
Razor: Panspermia just pushes the odus of the origin of all life to another place and planet. But then again, those that really believe in panspermia also believe that life is for lack of a better term "eternal" anyway--exploding and falling to new planets all the time to start over again.
It seems that Patrick mixed up my post with D-K's post
Please note, I said "I think" not "Believe" that the advent of man came about by "Panspermia"
How about this then? I think, not believe, maybe the advent of man came about by "Aliens" enough reference to that in the bible.
Ezekiel 1:4-1:24...just to name a few!! Do you figure that is "New Age" also??
Again I say, anything is better than the bronze age myths! And is just as viable!!
@Patrick:
I don't know which posts you've been reading but I'm an agnostic, which is about as far removed from absolutism as one can get.
Maybe you could be more specific?
Also as regarding your previous post, which was directed at me, it seemed a bit out of the blue. I haven't made the assertions you seem to adress, nor have I been defending "my" science as if it were a religion. I've merely corrected your faulty assumptions and misappropriation of the functionality of science, nothing more..
Perhaps you'd like to wrestle some more with my questions which you have yet to answer, they're still right up there.
No really, they are.. have a look!
Read through more of your posts, D-K.
Is the world really so black and white to you?
What an absolutist.
I guess your "science" really is a religion. You begin to sound more like an Imam than a rational person.
Actually, D-K, The people in the Bronze and Iron ages thought the bones belonged to giants, monsters, and dragons. At least that is what archaeologists speculate.
Panspermia generally does not generally explain abiogenesis, and many "scientists'" speculations about extraterrestrial intelligences (aliens) sound more like the rantings of new-age nutbags.
Personally I believe in a bioproprogenetic principle underlying life on earth. Mere natural selection or random mutation cannot account for the diversity of life in any great age of Earth. I believe that principle was the work of an intelligence. Like a potter making a vessel or any artisan or blacksmith working in their field, this intelligence created us. I personally would like to know how this was done, how it is done, and am open to new ideas. So far, we have come tantalizingly close, but...
the principle eludes us.
@Andy:
Noted, I took the statement very differently (sans humor) and thought 'this should be good'..
Thanks for the clarification.
Easily one of my favourite documentaries of just about any subject and loved Stein for this. It has some damning revelations about something most people 'knew all along' which is the sort of monopoly the 'atheistic' crowd have on science and especially on 'origins' and Expelled obviously did something right because there were a near swarm of 'Anti-Expelled' propaganda docs released to counter it and using absolutely any and all desperation tactics you can think of.
Anyways, forget what side you want to cheer for and just enjoy this documentary for what is actually a helluva good collection of some of the biggest names in the 'origins' fields and philosophers. Lennox, Dawkins, Berlinski, Provine, Walczack, Dembski, Dennett.. I mean this is some great stuff and for the most part most get fairly good long unedited chunks of time to state their cases (at least as far as it goes here).
Fairly well done. I was not 'in love' with the choice of a sort of green 'washed out' film quality making even the rare attractive people look a little ugly and that 'dreary' look maybe compensated by wacky little cartoon bits but then again it wasn't distracting and for the most part well shot, well narrated, nice professional, really nice 'pace'.
Real standouts to me were Will Provine who I'd disagree with but I admire for being straight-forward and blatant and consistent with his beliefs.
Berlinski is just a killer.. i mean i can see why he just infuriates the 'naturalistic crowd',
Lennox stood out to me,
but,
The Dawkins interview was just about one of the strangest, kookiest, actually kind of delightfully weird interviews I've seen yet.
Yes, I did purchase this but highly recommended (watch it here sure) and I noticed it was one of the top 10 most successful documentaries of all-time according to the box office and for a good reason - very compelling, interesting, sad, funny, disturbing at times, invokes thoughts and I notice highly controversial.
Go figure.. droll glum Ben Stein is behind one of the most controversial films in recent memory! That's funny enough in itself.
Great post topdoc!
@D-K No elaboration required, Was merely making the observation that people who can't spell and make ridiculous comments on here are in evolutionary terms closer to the goo than the monkey. I thought it was funny anyway. ;)
@Patrick:
Basically what you are saying is the advent of man came about by ID or creationism, not from a common ancestor, where did all the dinosaur bones et al: come from? Did your gods put them there to test the faith?
Nothing in the bibles about dino's etc: why?? because when the bibles were written in the bronze age, no one knew about them, or would of been inclusion in the bibles of more fanciful tales.
Behe's argument not withstanding, am more inclined to not (believe) but "think" about "Panspermia" as to why the advent of man. At least that is one scenario that makes more sense to me than the bronze age myths!
and yet more insults from Achems Razor
Yeah, that's how to get people to listen. Insult them!
Here's fun for you:
65 million years ago the age of dinosaurs ended. The only mammal known of at the time was some omnivorous shrew. These "rats" survived the devastating asteroid impact (which would have killed off vegetation through the "nuclear" winter) by feeding of the corpses of the dead until plants were able to reestablish themselves.
although the actual time that homosapiens appeared on the earth is still unknown (100k years? 1million? 2million?) if the average generation (between shrews and humans) is about 1 year (as a supposition), then in 65 million generations, we evolved from shrew to man. sounds plausible. How many generations of small pox were there in a hundred years time? billions? trillions? yet it never adapted to infect, to cross over to, another species nor change its vector to become more virulent.
At the 100,000 year mark as the appearance of homosapien on the planet, at a 20 year generation model, we only have 5000 generations existing on the planet, not millions.
At the 2,000,000 year mark, at a 20 year generational model, we still only have 100,000 generations, not millions.
Let us look at that a little harder....
All ancestral species of homonid evolved from one location; Africa. All other previous homonids, who had spread from Africa to other parts of the planet did not survive.
The oldest known homosapien skeleton is only 160,000 years old. Our lineage seperated from the chimpanzee line (from a common ancestor) around 2 million years ago. Since we have around 20000 protein making codons from which we are generated, that would mean that there is a 400 protein making codon difference between humans and chimpanzee.
400 codons. This does not include junk dna. Let us assume that from the common ancestor, chimpanzees changed 200 of their codons and we changed 200 of ours.
Since our lines diverged around 2 million years ago, and we appeared only around 200,000 years ago, that averages to about one beneficial codon change every 9000 years. Yet we find no change of that nature in homosapiens. Further, each of the genetic changes would have to be dominant traits that suppressed the traits of our previous cousins to a point where those previous traits no longer appeared on the dna strands.
This level of change is what the argument is all about. Some scientists speculate that the change is too rapid to be explained by evolution. Of course there may be a mutagenic agent or vector of an androprogenesis nature that allows such rapid change to occur that we don't know about.
However, in the timeline of modern humans (around 200,000 years)there should be 22.22 different protein codons in our dna from the dna of that first homosapien, each one androprogenetic and beneficial, and the last appearing within the last 9000 years.
Behe argued that the protein changes in human dna over the time line specified were not beneficial, (genetic arms race) but of the burning bridge type(trench warfare). Further, much of the genetic mutations found in humans are detrimental, leading to a number of genetic disorders.
It may be interesting to reveal the actual difference between chimpanzees and humans and see how these changes may have occurred. (diet, environment, etc.)
man, i'm getting long winded!
Lastly, Science is not about convincing people that "we" are right and that "they" should think like "we" do. No scientist is under some inherent obligation to teach the ignorant masses of their favoured methodology (used to explain surroundings). Science does not require a validation in form of numbers/followers, it validates itself in practicality.
Coexistance is dependant on morality, culture and intelligence, not any specific religion or methodology.
"It is not inconsistent to argue that scientists should try to get the various religious leaders to help guide mankind to solve the various problems we now face, its politics"
That's logically insonsistant, yes. Science has nothing to do with politics, neither is science any sort of foundation or applicable paradigm for religious leaders to guide their sheep from. The notion of having a religious person adopt a scientific paradigm is prepostorous, the very act of being religious logically disqualifies someone from adopting the scientific paradigm. Faith is irrational, any 'scientific' conclusion derived whilst employing an irrational frame of reference is illogical.
"If something cannot be absolutely proven to be true or factual (abiogenesis)(id)(the descent of man from ape), how would exploring the possibility be unscientific?"
That's not something for me to think about as I never argued otherwise. I'd like to point out that you've answered not one of my questions. Not one.
"Since neither ID nor abiogenesis can be impirically “proven”, arguing which one is correct is counterproductive and wastes valuable time and assets"
irrelevant.
"People who aren’t willing to comromise rarely reach positions of power where their knowlege can do the most good. If we want to mitigate the effects of global climate change and numerous other problems facing mankind, we have to be able to set aside our differences and find common ground"
irrelevant.
"You are not going to convince any major religion of your science if you continually assault them with insults, derision, and exclusion.
Presently the vast majority of humans on the planet follow one religion or another. I would go so far as to say that the vast majority of people on the planet believe more what their religious leaders say to them than what some atheistic patronizing scientist would say to them"
irrelevant.
Perhaps you are the one who didn't think all the way through, please try answering my questions. Your (assumed) inability to answer them should lead you to reevaluate your though-process.
D-K You really haven't thought it all the way through.
Since neither ID nor abiogenesis can be impirically "proven", arguing which one is correct is counterproductive and wastes valuable time and assets. It is not inconsistent to argue that scientists should try to get the various religious leaders to help guide mankind to solve the various problems we now face, its politics.
People who aren't willing to comromise rarely reach positions of power where their knowlege can do the most good. If we want to mitigate the effects of global climate change and numerous other problems facing mankind, we have to be able to set aside our differences and find common ground.
You are not going to convince any major religion of your science if you continually assault them with insults, derision, and exclusion.
Presently the vast majority of humans on the planet follow one religion or another. I would go so far as to say that the vast majority of people on the planet believe more what their religious leaders say to them than what some atheistic patronizing scientist would say to them. To solve the biggest problems in our world, we have to get these majorities on board, and it isn't going to happen by insults, derision, or exclusion.
Most of the derisive comments about Behe sound more like mudslinging than any real arguments.
Here is something to think about: If something cannot be absolutely proven to be true or factual (abiogenesis)(id)(the descent of man from ape), how would exploring the possibility be unscientific? Unless of course Science is actually a religion, and to blaspheme against her sacred tenets is cause for excommunication.
@D-K:
Good point, how would bending of science and atheists bring about the end of global warming or other pressing matters et al: is @Patrick saying that if atheists started believing in a god, pick one, out of the 28,000,000 by the way,(bad odds)! the invisible entity from who knows where would welcome us with his, or her, or it's, presence and forever stop all that is of pressing concern to the world as we know it!
Maybe this god whatever, will stop the speeding up of the universe, will he is at it also...Hmmm
Always La, La, land with the religee's!!
@Patrick Leonard:
To be fair, you choose to focus on the "insult" rather than the validity of the point he's making.
You say: "ID is not a threat to science, nor can any idea be a threat. Unless the atheists and “scientists” are willing to bend a little, this century could well lead to the end of civilization as we know it. Global Warming is just one threat. There are others, and Science has to show the church what must be done, without taking a big dump on their belief systems"
Scientists and atheists should bend on what, exactly? How do you see the end of civilization happening, and how did you come by that timeframe? How does the bending of atheists and scientists factor into threats such as global warming? Are you saying some relation exists? Why does science have to show the church what must be done, how would 'science' go about that exactly? Mind you, if 'church' actually listened to 'science' there wouldn't be much church left..
Your assertions are odd, and seem logically inconsistant, please explain.
@Andy:
"you are in evolutionary terms closer to the goo than the monkey"
Would you mind elaborating on that?
@Rikki putting aside your severe lack of spelling ability, (the words are Schmuck and Destroyed by the way) Aethiests are not saying for one minute that humans came from monkeys or goo only that they share a common ancestor and that something that lived in goo as you put was a common ancestor of everything, you are in evolutionary terms closer to the goo than the monkey.
epicurus
There you go insulting people again. That's just the way to get people to listen to your arguments. I normally tune out such stuff, other people have more severe reactions.
"He is a disgrace to science and have his degrees nullified."
wow. Now that's objective. By the same standard we should tear down such scientific notables as newton, copernicus, and the like. Why? Because they were eventually proven wrong? Wow!
I know,...why don't we just have a big pit match and start beating on each other with dimensional lumber!
@patrick....
if you are going to claim religion is the source of all those goods then you better be willing to take claim to all the evil religion has been the source of.
while you do that we will say thank you for starting science, and sorry for showing your myths to be wrong after we took it and made it more pragmatic and accurate. or at least forcing the religious to keep making their god smaller and smaller.
now, from our branching ancestor on the primate tree we are MILLIONS of generations away. also the pressure placed on the E. Coli was NOTHING compared to the drastic changes in environment and diets our ancestors went through...at one point the human race dropped to about 5000 individuals on the entire planet.
i cant believe i still have to argue evolution with someone who is supposed to be an adult. i feel like im arguing that the earth isnt flat. this isnt something we ought to be debating as it is well established fact amongst ANYONE who actually has an education in it. this is absurd.
I also noticed you said something about Darwinism positing that we came from goo. that is false. Darwinism as you call it which is the theory of natural selction, has nothing to do with how life began but only how it changes. this is why i dont think you understand enough about science or evolution to act as if your thoughts on this matter are relevant to....reality.
PS: dont use Behe as a source since he was shown to be completely wrong on his irreducible complexity flagellum and he refused to accept what every other scientist independently confirmed and ran over to start publishing papers in creationist funded journals and calling his work science. he is a disgrace to science and should have his degrees nullified.
To get elected, one has to please a number of people. It is highly unlikely that an atheist would become president, though it is possible. It is more likely that if a candidate professes the same beliefs as the majority of voters, that candidate stands a better chance of being elected. The Roman Catholic church possessed a huge amount of power in that if a king or prince were excommunicated, his country and lands could be seized without fear of retribution. The Roman Catholic church's power began to wane during the "Age of Reason", and after the Lutheran Reformation. Prior to this, the church owned huge tracts of land and kept the populace in ignorance and fear. Education was for the clergy and nobility, and the peasant did not have access to any information. The Bible wasn't translated until the various protestant reformations. These reformations opened the gates for the "Age of Reason". I'm not telling anything you can't figure out or find out for yourself.
As I had stated earlier, my reasons for believing have more to do with the road which I have travelled, and not based on anything my pot smoking disfunctional parents ever taught me.
The power the church had over the secular world was political based on religious; similarly the power "science" has over the educatinal system stiffles independent inquiry and personal convictions. Further, I would stipulate the power the church excercised over science and over the lives of europeans was not based on biblical teachings. The Apostles promoted communal living and democratic processes. The church, at that time, taught that kings were chosen by God. The church had more people killed for religious heresies and conflicting belief systems than for science. I personnally like the example left by St. Patrick in Ireland as an example of the relationship of the church to a country.
In areas such as Global Warming, the scientists need to encourage the religious to embrace the science, to understand it. As I said in an earlier post, to insult men during an argument only causes them to turn from you. Perhaps instead of being arrogant, these scientists should seek to influence leaders such as the Pope, the Muslim clergy, every religious leader they can find and convince them with irrefutable evidence of what is going on. Perhaps then these leaders will guide their followers on the right path. It is not compromise, it is being tactful. It is telling someone what is going on while being respectful of their traditions and beliefs.
Since you will always have people who believe in ID in one form or another and for one reason or another, why fight it? If their ideas turn out to be false (e.g. irreducible complexity), then like all beliefs, they will fall into the trash bin of science. If, however, it cannot be proved false, even if it were to be so, it will not change science.
Every day, scientists find interesting ideas that support many of the "myths" in the Bible, such as the possibility of the flood of Noah being based on deluge stories that have been modified by the cultures they have passed through. The biggest problem with Old Testament Hebrew is it is too ambiguous. The great flood did not cover all of the "Earth", it covered all of the "Land" or Eretz.
I would continue on this thread of thought, but don't wish to beat a dead horse.
The point of it is this: when you insult people, "persecute" people, and ostracize people because of their beliefs, they will be less likely to listen to your arguments. Further, with the number of crack-pot scientists out there trying to prove various end-of-the-world scenarios (e.g. 2012, polar shift, global superstorms etc.) it can be exceedingly difficult to filter out the good science from the junk science. With the continuing changes in the understanding of pure sciences such as Physics, people are going to seek an answer that they can understand. ID is not a threat to science, nor can any idea be a threat. Unless the atheists and "scientists" are willing to bend a little, this century could well lead to the end of civilization as we know it. Global Warming is just one threat. There are others, and Science has to show the church what must be done, without taking a big dump on their belief systems. It's kind of like trying to teach poor africans that having big families is bad. If you were to approach them disrespectfully, you would probably get hacked to death with machetes. If you incorporate their beleifs, or at least respect their beliefs, they will be more willing to listen. Of course, you are always going to have the "one-percenters".
@Patrick:
Where do the churches get such power? why even your pres. talks to Christ, since he is a christian, only read that on the news yesterday!
Oh, come on Razor. Most churches, even the Roman Catholic churches are not trying to suppress science. They are trying to keep scientists from becoming Dr. Frankensteins, from becoming ghouls. And since we're in America now, since when has the church had such power since the founding of this great nation?
Anyhow, in a way you are right. People tend to be stiff necked lunk-heads, on all sides. I guess it's human nature to always want to be right. People tend to jump out of windows when their world-view gets shattered and will defend their position as if it is life and death.
@Patrick Leonard:
Will only say one thing, you say most everything came from religion, to your post to @Sarah: Well I say was there any choice?? why, even Galileo had to recount his findings for fear of reprisals to the church, just think of all the progress that science could had made if religion had not got in the way, RE: dark ages! Religion always tried to suppress science, and still tries to suppress science right up to this day! With their creationist "BELIEF" as one example, and 6000 year old Earth, Etc:
Sarah
Religion provided nothing?
From religion(s) we get the birth of science.
From religion we get the measure of time and angle (Mesopotamia, ancient summerians, Base 60 mathematics)
From religion we get clocks with which we measure time(clocks invented in the "Dark" ages to inform monks when to pray).
Hospitals and libraries owe their existence to religion.
From religion we get concepts like equality and morality.
To say that all medical cures come from science ignores a moral code that causes men to help complete strangers. Was the first vaccine against smallpox created by a "scientist" or a "religious" person?
What we have here is what we in the military call a "Communication Filter". We hear what we want, we filter what we hear so that we can make sense of our experiences.
For the New E-coli strain (species?) it took how many generations to change? 10^9th power? 10^10? just to change one small neucleotide change to allow it to produce a useful substance?
How many neucleotide changes occurred to evolve from ape to man? How many generations to change that number of pieces of code? And here is the tough part. How many generations of Homo erectus were there? The genotype alone would indicate a number of subtle changes to HE DNA to change into Homo Sapien. The number of generations of protoman(ape) to man? It is only in the last century that enough of the Homonid type has had enough population to allow for evolution.
So evolutionists would have us believe that homonids accomplished in a small number of generations what E-Coli couldn't do in more than a million times more generations. And E-Coli is the more adaptive creature! By science's standard and by Darwins standard, The E-coli should have at least evolved into multicellular invvertebrates in the scientists vats! And that was in a controlled environment!
As far as Tacitus is concerned, and with his date of birth, He acquired the knowlege of the individual through information available to him at the time, information in records extant at the time which are no longer available and not related to Biblical or religious letters of the time.
As far as my education is concerned...Is that how you win arguments? by belittling the intelligence of your opponent? And where in anything that I have written will you find me stating the Biblical Creation story as fact?
As for me and many "religious" types, I consider the ancient stories as morality stories with a dash of truth. For example, the original story of creation, translated as simply as possible from ancient Hebrew, gives much support for Panspermia. I personally believe that "creation" is much more subtle than we understand at present.
I could argue that the creation of man from the dust of the earth is the literary equivalent of Darwinism, that it is in a mud puddle that all life was "created" and through billions of years of evolution "we" came into being. I do not however, for faith is not science.
To insult another in an argument only causes the hearer to turn away from you and spurn your argument.
I am glad to see actual evidence being put forward here, but the movie talks about the ostricization of scientists who study ID from academia. The Church used to burn people at the stake for heresy, now "Science" does much the same. Ben Stein is arguing that such abuses of power should be avoided, even scorned. I agree with Ben Stein, though I doubt I would necessarily agree with "Creationists" on any number of topics(or even Ben Stein for that matter)including the creation of the Earth and of man.
Jari, you generalize too much!
what you basically stated is the more educated you are, the more likely that evolution started in abiogenesis, and the less educated you are, the more likely you are to find a simpler answer.
There are guys like me who are educated in a number of different disciplines and have not specialized. I am not a Phd(OMG) but understand the arguments of evolution. Further, I personally am willing to compromise and accept certain premeses such as "common ancestry". ID is a much older theory than abiogenesis, and finds its roots in religion. To ask a person to discard their beliefs and traditions, and to accept the ever changing dehumanizing assertions of nature is unsafe at best. With the traditions and beliefs that comes with religion, there are also moral codes of conduct. Without these, society cannot move forward but descends into tyranny or anarchy (See examples of Soviet Russia, Communist China)
Maybe what we need is an annual ID/EVO EXPO where the scientists and religious meet to show new evidence, expound on old evidence, and party to the sounds of the lates rock bands and the ridicule of prominent comedians. EVOID Expo? Devoid expo? Kind of like a Star Trek convention, we can see, meet, listen to emmerse ourselves in the science of science and the faith of faith.
I gather from Behe's book is not just irreducible complexity, but the statistical possibility that such complex structures could be naturally and randomly acquired. There is something going on to kick start the self assembly that we don't understand.
The finds such as the Murchison Meteorites (roids?) in 1969 definitely prove that complex organic molecules do exist in space.
Facinating stuff. Where did it come from? is it ejecta from a massive meteor strike in earth's past?
The math of the problem is what is getting me. It must be possible to "create" life from the inorganic, for it was done. Both scientists and the clergy must agree on this.
The problem is the math. There must be a causative to make even organic compounds self replicate. Like a logic/decision matrix, there must be a series of events that took place. Since volcanic activity, ultraviolet radiation, electrical discharge, and frozen conditions all can affect amino acid assembly, we just have to replicate the processes and prove it is a purely natural phenomenon. If it cannot be replicated in the controlled environment of a laboratory, how could it have happened in a mud puddle?
Even procaryotic genesis or eucaryotic genesis seems an insurmountable hurdle for nature to vault.
There is a possibility with an underlying space-time geometry (responsible for things like tornadoes, hurricanes, whirlpools, subatomic particle spirals) related to Fibonacci sequences and (AM I REALLY SAYING THIS?) the Golden Ratio (phi) involved that kick starts helical spiraling and self replication. With a natural underlying geometry, such things as rna and dna may be as complicated as spinning cotton. But this has to be proven. NOTHING IN SCIENCE CAN BE TAKEN ON FAITH. And: Anything that is taken on faith is not science.
I cannot believe a theory as fact without proof. That is probably why I am not a scientist. The "intelligencia" require that I just take their assumptions and speculations as proofs or evidence.
The reason I bring up Behe's book is the statistics involved. Of most fascinating interest is the human-malaria war. Certain changes should have taken place in humans and in the malaria bug over the time frame given and they did not.
Physics and its ever changing convolutions show the more you know, the less you know. With physics, even math has limitations.
So far I haven't seen any proofs of Abiogenesis in the lab or otherwise, although we are tantalizingly close. We may be witnessing abiogenesis going on all around us but cannot differentiate it from the higher bacterialogical lifeforms because it is getting consumed as fast as it is being "created". Random strings of Rna may be floating around out there and gobbled up as easily as we eat a hot dog. This is speculation, not proof.
Even ID is speculation, a theory, and unproven. We just have to wait and see what advances in science and mathematics can show.
@patrick
I would like to point out that it wasn't patrick who made the post you are addressing, but ME--- peelingpaint. That's as much for patrick's benefit as mine, as I think I was a tad gushing.
I still stand by the points I made however. My impression is that there is that not all of secular academia finds neo-darwinism as unquestionable as Dawkins, Miller, Dennett, Scot, etc etc.. would have us believe. Look into the Altenberg conference if you don't believe this.
Most, if not all, of the 'Altenberg 16' would rather look for a physical law than invoke a teleological explanation, so that's why I say ID is a different issue.
However, having have read Meyer's latest book, I agree with him, that to invoke either the effect of random mutation and selection *or* the action of intelligence are equally unobservable hypotheses in one sense. Only supporting evidence for them can in any way be observed.
I also don't believe that all metaphysical questions can be settled empirically, since the interpretation of experiments requires a metaphysical premise in the 1st place.
I'll have to get back to you about the research you alluded to, but did you mean 497 proteins of *all* flagella- as in different proteins of various *different* flagella *totalling* 497? It's not clear to me what that implies.
TBH, I don't see the relevance of the fact that different flagella are constructed differently at all.
Perhaps I'm wrong about all this, but I'm fairly confident that I'm not, and that a paradigm shift is a-comin'!
Ben Stein - you are an evil, evil man. I know you are smart, so you must know how you are distorting facts, creating straw man arguments, and perverting the truth. Shame on you for this film.
@ patrick
if i came across as dismissive then i apologize. you stated "Removing one or two parts and unearthing a functional system would make a more convincing case for a neo-darwinian mechanism being responsible for the BF" i will try the next quote is taken from Ussery, David a biochemist "The bacterial flagellum is not even irreducible. Some bacterial flagella function without the L- and P-rings. In experiments with various bacteria, some components (e.g. FliH, FliD (cap), and the muramidase domain of FlgJ) have been found helpful but not absolutely essential (Matzke 2003). One third of the 497 amino acids of flagellin have been cut out without harming its function (Kuwajima 1988). Furthermore, many bacteria have additional proteins that are required for their own flagella but that are not required in the "standard" well-studied flagellum found in E. coli. Different bacteria have different numbers of flagellar proteins (in Helicobacter pylori, for example, only thirty-three proteins are necessary to produce a working flagellum), so Behe's favorite example of irreducibility seems actually to exhibit quite a bit of variability in terms of numbers of required parts ". now if this doesn't show you that behe was wrong then we will have to agree to disagree. you are right that jones is not a scientist but i used the exanple that i did because the documentary i alluded to has scientists refuting behe's arguments. the science can't invoke the supernatural is at the core of science if it cannot be tested and observed science doesn't try to explain it. that statement isn't stating you are wrong it just states it is outside the field of science.
@over the edge
I don't think it's that clear that the TTSS actually is ancestral to the BF. Even if it were, it's a big jump from 10 proteins to 40. Removing one or two parts and unearthing a functional system would make a more convincing case for a neo-darwinian mechanism being responsible for the BF, than removing 40.
I don't see why an irreducibly complex machine couldn't use parts that can be used in other machines-- by that definition *no* system is IR.
The opinion of Judge Jones is not that important in this- is he a great scientist or philosopher? Should this be decided like a divorce or something?
If anyone wants to be on the winning side in this, they should jump onto the bandwagon of people questioning neo-darwinian mechanisms as the whole story, as many secular biologists like Stuarts Newman and Kaufmann are.
Whether ID can be a scientific hypothesis is another matter. I personally think it might well be, and the whole 'science can't invoke the supernatural' spiel is vague and question-begging.
I guess when and if random mutation and selection is found not to have complete power to explain form, then it's supporters will say that they were being intellectually honest and following the evidence. It's good to look for explanations. It's good not to be dismissive as well.
@ patrick
Dr. Michael J. Behe took his ideas to court in "Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District" and not only lost but lost to a christian judge appointed by bush who supports Behe. his idea of irreducible complexity of the bacterial flagellum "cientists regard this argument as having been disproved in the light of research dating back to 1996 as well as more recent findings. They point out that the basal body of the flagella has been found to be similar to the Type III secretion system (TTSS), a needle-like structure that pathogenic germs such as Salmonella and Yersinia pestis use to inject toxins into living eucaryote cells. The needle's base has ten elements in common with the flagellum, but it is missing forty of the proteins that make a flagellum work. Thus, this system negates the claim that taking away any of the flagellum's parts would render it useless. On this basis, Kenneth Miller notes that, "The parts of this supposedly irreducibly complex system actually have functions of their own." (taken from wikki) . i have a suggestion for you to watch "Id on trial" by nova the id proponents who went got pummeled by real science and many of the so called ID experts refused to testify or go on the record. and at the end of the trial the judge suggested that some of the id people be brought up on perjury charges.
Here we go again....manipulating dna in a laboratory is not "Natural Selection", "Random mutation", or "Environmental adaptation". It is Artificial manipulation and is a proof of Intelligent Design. Although I find some of Darwin's observations interesting, especially about selective breeding, I do not particularly agree about the far reaching conclusions he made as a result.
I recommend reading the interesting book "The Edge of Evolution, The search for the limits of Darwinism" by Dr. Michael J. Behe, Free Press, Simon and Schuster Inc.,2007.
His analogy of evolution not as an arms race, but as trench warfare, and the proofs provided are quite compelling. If scientists spent as much time manipulating the dna of Malaria to supplant the present deadly breeds, millions of lives can be saved.
@Patrick, the ecoli is certainly NOT the same ecoli. it is different enough from the original generation ~31,000 generations ago that it is a new species. as i said. what makes YOU think YOU are educated enough in this field to make that distinction of what is and isnt a new species?????
Also the bacterium didnt just evolve the ability to EAT nylon, it evolved added information in the genome which was beneficial to the organism and hadnt existed in nature before...i dont think you went to the link i provided. instead you actually had the nerve to argue something you know nothing about. that is utterly amazing.
and im glad you took a couple intro level science courses at a college. but all it shows is that you didnt pay any attention and obviously didnt pick any of those as a major.
@patrick
macroevolution is usually just microevolution happening many many tines. If you are looking for a "crockaduck" science never claimed that happened. we have entire museums and universities full of evidence. now concerning tacitus he wasn't born til 56 ad so any account isn't first hand and the earliest surviving manuscript containing the passage is an 11th century Christian scribal copy that refers to Christianity as and i quote "mischievous superstition". i have no problem with you believing in whatever religion you choose but science is the testing and explaining the natural world. science does not take a stance on supernatural causes for anything so by definition religion has no place in science.
I say again it is still an e-coli.
as for other bacterium, merely stating that a bacterium is a new species reeks of grandstanding. can the bacterium still consume its natural food? has it shifted exclusively to nylon waste products? maybe they taste better.
An example:
Many indian tribes used to (and some still do) consume ground acorns. The stuff is foul. Given a choice, they eat flour or corn. Acorns are a survival fool. Does changing a diet change a species? Humans do it all the time, yet they are still humans.
Further I have taken a number of courses in science while at college, including Genetics, Astronomy, and Geology. Please hold your insults.
Also, I've never even heard of Tacitus...
Worth looking into?
Macro-evolution is incompatible with a human's perception of time. Ape-habilis-erectus-sapiens are micro-evolutionary steps, yet the start and end-result clearly have diverged in genomes enough to be classified as another species. Macroevolution.
Take the time the earth has been here, ranging from 6,4 billion years to 6000, depending on your philosophic position, take into account 80 years for a human life, and put in perspective how small the chance is that any given human observes, recognizes and catalogues macro evolution.
Speciation is elusive considered from a human perspective, but to see a creationist hammer on the lack of evidence amuses me.
Genetic distinction is tricky business anyway.
@Patrick Leonard:
For someone not to worried, you sure are going out of your way to try to convince people of your creationism.
All you are saying is old tired stuff that has been brought forward before. Ad Naseum:
All you have is words, no proof of any kind, means nothing. We do not have to prove there is no gods, the onus is on you religee's to prove there is.
Check out Tacitus, there is no empirical proof/evidence that your Jesus existed, unless you want to believe the bias bible scholars, and don't go by Josephus, known to be a forgery.
You really have no leg to stand on, so give it up already!
Look, microbiological analogy
I take a chevy engine and put it in a car built by Ford, hence Ford does not exist! Look, automobiles keep changing form, getting more and more complex! Mechanical Evolution! Forget the level of technology required to sequence DNA, you can do it in a pile of Goo! You don't need a sequencer!
Since it can be done with a multimillion dollar facility, it must have happened quite by accident in the bottom of an oceanic rift zone! Maybe it was the comets that smashed into the earth at 20,000 mph that created us.
Look, it's quite simple...you cannot reproduce the results, it didn't happen that way. Such is the nature of science.
Oh, and for those who want to discount the existence of Jesus (the movie trailer so prominently displayed on this website), just remember that He was written about by Tacitus, a roman polytheist and politician. There are a number of artifacts attesting to his existence contemporaneous with his time. All else is revisionist history, or as the ancients would put it, Midrash.
D-K09/20/2010 at 13:12 @Patrick: “Evolution” is a collective term.
Micro evolution is a fact, as it has been observed, verified and catalogued. Macro evolution is an extrapolation, as it logically cannot be observed unless we instigate.
Obviously even if we instigate, one could still make the argument of different parameters and ecological differences, but that’s besides the point.
Micro evolution is (observable) fact.
Adaptation is not evolution. An e-coli colony that adapts to a certain anti-biotic (natural or synthetic) is still an E-coli, not another species.
The problem with the scientific community in general is they do not follow their own rules. The problem with religions is they do not allow scientific rules to apply. Both systems rely on a democratic process. They (each within it's own sphere of influence) consider a certain theory or writing and give it a thumbs-up or thumbs-down.
The most probable scientific explaination is that our organic chemistry is star stuff created naturally in the Oort Cloud, and reached Earth via comets. This existence of organic chemicals in these comets is detectable through spectral analysis of a comet's coma.
The complexity of organic lifeforms is probably too complicated for human beings to figure out; the mathematics of organic self replication must follow a set of rules that can be duplicated in a sterile lab environment, but humans are too stupid to figure it out. Such theories may require super-intelligence, artificial in nature, to be able to analyze all relavent data and form a mathematic model to explain the observed or theorized phenomenon. Basically, it will require us to build massive facilities at huge expense to provide us with an answer to the question.
But my belief in God has nothing to do with evolution, creationism, religious zealotry, or any other clap trap. It comes from phenomenon that I have personnaly observed or personnally experieced. There is nothing I can say to an atheist to convince them what I know to be true, anymore than I can convince an spiritual person that their creation stories are not scientific.
To theorize the possibility of a higher-dimensional being organized "our" universe in such a way that self-replicating lifeforms could exist is no less scientific than believing life on Earth formed in the Oort cloud, that aliens planted life on earth, or that small mammals evolved from lizards, then evolved to apes, then evolved to Us.
The statistical possibility of us and the complexity of us is so extremely remote that some scientists are studying the possibility that we are not accidental, that we were designed. This follows the rules of science. The scientist observes phenomenon, forms a hypothesis, and seeks to prove the hypothesis through experimentation. This is the nature of science. All we prove when we physically alter an organism in a laboratory is that we can artificially force mutation. Until the mechanism for spontaneous creation of organic from inorganic life is truly understood can we take a step further, and discount intelligent design in its present state. Further, the discovery of this mechanism still does not discount the possibility of deity, as higher planes of existence can be shown to exist. If the presence of Gravity and our complete ignorance of its cause does not prove that we do not understand the effects of higher planes of existence on our few dimensions...well...
Evolutionists should avoid making a religion out of science since they are obviously only "experts" in one field of study. If you would like me to continue....just say so.
For those wondering...religion is hope in a world of despair.
I'd like to rescind that last comment, I should probably phrase that better.
"So, though it may not be clear how intelligence might manifest itself to create species, I believe that the idea that it does is the philosophical complement to Darwin’s theory, and it’s no more clear that random mutation and selection could be the explanation."
Aye, but the fact that it's equally possible does not put it on equal footing.
@peelingpaint: I agree that evolution is simply "change" but evolutionism implies change of biological nature in conjunction with Darwin's idea of evolution.
TheFreeDictionary;
ev·o·lu·tion·ism (v-lsh-nzm, v-)
n.
1. A theory of biological evolution, especially that formulated by Charles Darwin.
2. Advocacy of or belief in biological evolution.
"As regards the sentence you quoted, I meant that if you believe that the accumulation of small functional changes, via random mutation and natural selection, is the explanation for the morphological and genetic similarities(and differences) between species, then those similarities and differences that you already observe will make sense in that light and you will also be able to make successful predictions or retrodictions about links that have not yet been observed on that premise."
This I disagree with, the fact that it "makes sense" is by no means a/the only logical outcome. One can predict a logical outcome, one cannot simply predict something that makes sense.
For instance, a plesiosaurus as a dinosaur/fish link makes sense, but it is by no means the only logical link(outcome).
I like your though-process though.
@D-K
Perhaps there is both common design, *and* a kind of evolution. Possibly there are pre-existing templates that become actualised successively.
I know that's speculative, but I'm not sure that anyone's really demonstrated that random mutation and selection can create complexity. Dawkins' 'methinks it is like a weasel' analogy is not valid imo, because the strings of nonsense it takes to arrive at that sentence via (intentional) selection and randomisation are not functional as sentences, whereas all living things must be functional to survive- which is one of the central planks of Darwin's theory.
So, though it may not be clear how intelligence might manifest itself to create species, I believe that the idea that it does is the philosophical complement to Darwin's theory, and it's no more clear that random mutation and selection could be the explanation.
@ D-K
I agree that whoever is most associated with an idea is irrelevant to the truth of it, but 'neo-darwinism' is a more accurate term than 'neo-evolutionism', because Darwin is famous for proposing that random variation, in conjunction with, selection by the environment can explain all biological form. Neo-darwinism and 'the modern synthesis' are accepted shorthand for the theoretical framework that's premised on his idea, which also includes the knowledge of genetics that was not available to him. 'Evolution' just means change, and even if specifically applied to biology, a theory of *how* that change occurs is necessarily Darwinian. Lamarck had another theory of 'evolution'.
As regards the sentence you quoted, I meant that if you believe that the accumulation of small functional changes, via random mutation and natural selection, is the explanation for the morphological and genetic similarities(and differences) between species, then those similarities and differences that you already observe will make sense in that light and you will also be able to make successful predictions or retrodictions about links that have not yet been observed on that premise.
But... the fact that one premise is consistent with a lot of the data does not mean that it is the only premise that is, nor that it's the premise that is consistent with most of the data.
'Common design' may or may not be consistent with the data, but if it *were*,the successful predictions and retrodictions of neo-darwinism would also be explicable by *that* premise.
Perhaps all species came into being in a process of progression from form to form (though not necessarily in a smooth gradual way), and that would explain why animals that look alike are genetically alike, but that idea alone would not logicaly imply that a darwinist mechanism was responsible for that process.
@peelingpaint
you are right.very soon science will reduce everything into a mathematical formula.the more beautiful the equation is the more "design" it will look.
@Peelingpaint:
Darwinism is a misnoma, a more accurate discription would be neo-evolutionism. Darwin, though brilliant, is irrelevant to the theory itself.
Would you mind elaborating on the following; "Whilst it’s obviously possible to make testable predictions with that premise, and so it’s a way of doing science, I’m no longer convinced that it’s impossible to explain the relevant data ‘scientifically’ with rival premises"
@someone
I used to agree with you, but now I think that neo-darwinism may be based on philosophically materialist premises- i.e. that random mutation and selection can be creative. Whilst it's obviously possible to make testable predictions with that premise, and so it's a way of doing science, I'm no longer convinced that it's impossible to explain the relevant data 'scientifically' with rival premises.
To all people of faith, there is no conflict between science and faith.Remember both are created by God.Scientific people have put in a lot of work to find the answer. we too must put in equal effort to understand God's work.Pray to God to understanding every scientific fact.Scientific people can only understand it one way but we are different.We understand the physical world and the spiritual world .Remember no matter how far science advance there is no conflict with the bible.
@Rob:
You should check out "Through the wormhole - Is there a Creator?" It has a nice discussion on reiligious morality and atheistic morality in the comments sectio.
You can't blame evolution for the Holocaust. Firstly who is to say that one particular race of humans is superior to the rest, Hitler's attitude and thoughts on this subject resulted from a mis-interpreted notion of the Ayran race. Secondly, yes, evolution can be applied in a very selective way to create stronger humans but simply because the original thought is in place doesn't mean that a horrfic outcome is logical anymore than preaching "love thy neighbour" would result in a world Utopia.
It irritate me when people equate evolution and athism with a lack of morals and consequentially terrible acts. Humans are cruel and sadistic, if they didn't kill in the name of "Eugenics" or "Communism", they would kill in the name of "Jesus" or "Allah". Two sides of the same coin, so to speak.
Also, reductio ad Hitlerum is a silly, silly thing.
Curse you Godwin..
@Patrick: "Evolution" is a collective term.
Micro evolution is a fact, as it has been observed, verified and catalogued. Macro evolution is an extrapolation, as it logically cannot be observed unless we instigate.
Obviously even if we instigate, one could still make the argument of different parameters and ecological differences, but that's besides the point.
Micro evolution is (observable) fact.
420 vision:
obviously you weren't paying attention. The Nazi Death camps were a logical extension of eugenics, which is a logical conclusion of Evolution. By directing evolution, we can selectively breed superior humans; by selectivly culling the herd, we can prevent undesired offspring. The Nazi Death camps were created to purify Germany from what they believed to be evolutionally inferior breeds of humans.
Since the scientific theory of neo-evolution states that self replicating creatures evolved from inorganic chemistry but they have not scientifically proven or replicated the process, they should not be in control of the educational process. Panspermia theory is the age old argument; which came first, the chicken or the egg.
For those who wish to know, I don't believe the stories in the Bible are anything but Midrashim, stories told to fill in the gaps, morality stories with a dash of historical truth built in.
Yes, I believe God created the heavens and the Earth; I don't know exactly how. I also don't believe God exists the way we understand existence. The idea that we live in Flatworld and cannot see the higher dimensional (Hashamaim) world does not negate its existence.
Since the Evolutionists cannot replicate life from lifelessness anymore than the Michaelson-Morley experiment proved the existence of an interstellar ether, they should not be allowed to spout their "theory" as "Fact".
Roy, if i wanted to teach in a science class that storks bring babies instead of what we know about reproduction what would you say?
if i wanted to teach the native american stories in science class about the creation of the earth what would you say?
maybe these things SHOULD NOT be taught alongside science since they simply are not science. Maybe they should be taught in ancient mythology or in philosophy of religion.
in science telling someone they are wrong and cant show how they are right is not the same as not allowing them any opportunity. they have had AMPLE opportunity to show their evidence and have failed to do so. even so far as going to court and trying to show how it is valid science and failing to do so.
being able to teach children myths as facts is NOT freedom. if anything that is taking the freedoms away from the children to grow into critical thinking free adults.
would you feel equally as strong if hindus fought to teach their creation story in school science class?
The film is about freedom of speech, thought and belief, and how those freedoms have been covertly removed. The arguemants within these comments show me how stupid people have become. I might not believe what you believe but I would fight to allow you to say them. that IS what freedom is about.
Intelligent design is not discounted by top scientists. Should intelligent design automatically mean "God" The Big Bang is God everything else is man made conjecture. I believe in the big bang but not in any ancient folklore.
What ? How does intelligent design have anything to do with whether or not the holocost happened ? ( ref @16min 31sec ) ?
Ben Stein is clearly a waste of time.
I think the biggest problem with the debate between Darwinism and intelligent design, is simply labeling theories into only these two categories. Believing in evolution explains a lot about natural progression of species, but does not answer the origin of the big bang, and it would seem that any attempt to rationalize that origin is considered Creationism. Intelligent Design is not limited to the biblical extremists who think the world is 6000 years old and that dinosaur fossils are a test from "god."
Quantum Physics is stepping into a direction that includes consciousness into the equation. This could bridge the gap between science and religion. I see the points made by religious people, in that something cannot come from nothing, and I also see that it is highly unlikely there is an old man in the sky casting love and judgment on the world. I think the scientific method is important and has provided us with more than any religion has, but I also think that to label scientific works that allude to some type of intelligence embedded within the fabric of space and time as hogwash is wrong. To stand by the scientific method, you should adhere to its conditions and make no assumptions or accusations. Religions today will prove themselves false through the scientific method, so it is unnecessary to retaliate by "burning people at the stake" when they try to express their views. It's time the academic community of science be the "bigger man" by allowing such religious people speak so that they can put their faith through the scientific method and be proven wrong. All scientific works that present credible evidence will also be allowed to make themselves present, and by this, together we can discover greater aspects of physics as we know it.
Mainstream University education is riddled with theories and devoid of facts as a standard.
Apart from 1+1=2 there's not much else you can really be so sure about. No science deals in fact.
Ha what the hell was that. It was like it was made for children. We need to get naturally selective on Ben Stein is what we need. There was no evidence shown for either side. It was just one sides reaction to the other. What is the point in that?
Also, it's a clear case of Godwins law. The fact that Hitler believed in Darwin is completely irrelevant. Darwin comes up with a theory trying to explain why we evolved in the way we did, and later Hitler uses this to justify killing a s@#$ load of people. Why would Hitler's later actions have anything to do with the validity of Darwin's theory? Unless we have some sort of 'cat in a box' situation going on, but we shouldn't get into that here.
Lavender you clearly do not know the theory of evolution.
it has nothing to do with how life itself came into existence.
that would be Abiogenesis or other proposed hypotheses. the Theory of Evolution deals with the Evolution of one Species into another Species and is backed up by a huge fossil record and observation of evolving species in labs and in nature.
Just want to clear this up since noone else is. The 20th century was the bloodiest century in terms of the amount of people killed not the percentage. Percentage wise it was the safest century for a human to ever exist. The farther society gets from GOD the more peaceful we have become. It a cold hard fact.
PEACE
The nitty-gritty of the argument is that neither side has the definitive answer and therefore, neither side is completely correct. Herein lies the crux of the issue/problem for the people/scientists who want to move forward (and not be stuck in the argument). I enjoyed hearing all of the opinions expressed in this documentary and felt a "shedding" of my own bias' as most of them cannot be scientifically proven ;)
wow, this movie was god awful.
a little dry at times, but good for the most part.
a little dry at times, but good.
@Epi: Thanks, that actually helped a lot.
@D-K, hard question. dont know the exact number for successful DNA copying however i found this which, since you are so good at math, might give you an idea.
"The human genome comprises about 3 x 109 base pairs of DNA, and the extent of human genetic variation is such that no two humans, save identical twins, ever have been or will be genetically identical. Between any two humans, the amount of genetic variation—biochemical individuality—is about 0.1 percent. This means that about one base pair out of every 1,000 will be different between any two individuals. Any two (diploid) people have about 6 x 106 base pairs that are different..."
the process is driven by proteins and radiation.
cells are driven also by proteins, and amino acids. they do what they must to thrive and survive, independent of our brain.
@Epic:
You might know this, I have been pondering as of late, searching and firing queries left and right, yet no answer befalls me.
What is the general succesrate of DNA "copying" and what drives the process? Are cells basically autonomous or are they driven by the subconscious mind?
@NR_chemicals.....as a chemist how would you feel if Ben Stein put out a movie saying chemistry is just a field of elitists who have nothing but THEORIES (using the word as "idea") and instead try to push for the teaching of ALCHEMY. and when people who tried to teach alchemy in schools were fired they cried over it.
how would you feel? would you say they are just asking questions?
asking questions is fuel to science...however asking the wrong questions is ONLY good for knowing which path is a waste of time...brooding on those wrong questions and insisting they are right is NOT science.
another example....lets say ben stein wanted to argue that storks bring babies and not what we know as reproduction...these arent questions...they are dogmatic beliefs held ONLY because these people are religious.
now if you ask if i know evolution is a fact? YES. i know it is just like i know germ theory is a fact. YES i have seen evolution and you can too! but do you have to see evolution to know its a fact? no you dont. just like you dont have to see germs or stars form or black holes to know they are there. as a scientist you ought to know this.
ncbi . nlm . nih . gov/pmc/articles/PMC2632098/?tool=pmcentrez
@NR_Chemicals:
Surely appreciating the beauty seems like a good cause, however, just asking questions without having a drive to answer them is asinine. I'll agree that science is not about knowing all the answers (now) but it is about understanding the processes that make up our reality.
Science is the tool we use to understand our surroundings, our past and our future, science guides and shapes society as a whole. The consumers are the ones who need not answer the questions, they're the ones who can enjoy the fruits of scientific labor without having to be aware of the actual process involved. How many people know how a remote works, or even a car, yet they use these things every day.
Science observes, creates and understands, society consumes. Such is modern life. If anything, there could me more understanding. Don't mistake ignorance for humility.
@NR_Chemicals:
Right! you say you are a chemist, and then do not want to delve into the mysteries of life, why? is that through laziness or ignorance?
You want to let everything lay?
I thought chemistry was all about the mysteries of life?
I think you are no more of a chemist, than I am an astronaut!
The onus is on you for proof by the way, since you brought it up.
And another thing, do not tell people what they may or may not write about!
Wow.
I'm extremely surprised by how many people here, agreeing or disagreeing with the film, are claiming to know something. Do you really know that evolution is a fact? You were there? How incredible. You know your religion is truth? Intriguing!
Please, stop this ignorant bu**sh*t. You don't "know" the truth and I highly doubt we will ever find out. Not in this life time, anyways (and I’m not implying there is another one).
Why aren’t people happy with a simple approach of just asking questions? That’s where the fun is. The answers are great sometimes but true science is about asking questions. We won’t get anywhere otherwise. Everyone is so focused on getting answers. So desperate that they will accept anything that makes sense to them and makes them feel comfortable.
I can’t speak for other professions but as a chemist, I’ve learned that there is sufficient beauty out there in the world, at our finger tips, available without the knowledge of its origin, or ours, for that matter. To believe that we will ever truly understand how it all started seems farfetched. Has anyone considered that we simply can’t possibly comprehend it? That maybe our feeble minds aren’t supposed to grasp our creation process? It sounds like I’m saying I don’t care or there is no point in questioning but that’s wrong. I do care and I suppose it would be the ultimate discovery. I just find more beauty in what is created already, rather than unearthing what or who created everything and why or how.
I digress. My point is this:
This film was designed to do one specific thing which happens to be something overlooked more often than not in this thread. It isn't saying science is wrong or that ID is right or religion is wrong. Not specifically, at least. However, it may seem like that at times. Stay focused. It isn't trying to disprove anything or change anyone’s beliefs. It's sending a very clear, very simple message. THINK FREELY AND UNBIASED AS SCIENTISTS OR WE’RE DOOMED!
Many good comments on this thread but oh, so many i*****.
The implication that an atheist society is more prone to acts of cruelty because they are simply enacting "survival of the fittest" is the biggest load of rubbish I have ever heard.
1st & 2nd Centuries - Christians persecuted by Rome because of their faith
8th Century - Charlemagne's campaign across Europe to bring Christianity to them
11th Century - Crusades against "Godless" Arabs
12th Century - Jihad against "Godless" Christians
16th Century - Religious wars rage across Europe including St Bartolomew's Day Massacre and the reign of Mary I
17th Century - Salem Witch Trials
The list goes on and on. Instead of pointing fingers are Darwinism as a cause of the horrors of the 20th century, perhaps it should be wise to say that being unpleasant to each other is a human condition and note that an excuse will always be found for acts of cruelty whether it be religion, power, greed, sex or Darwinism.
Science doesn't pretend to know all the facts and neither do I, however I can only come to a conclusion based upon those facts I have observed/learned. Said facts point me towards the Theory of Evolution, but as is evident in the name, this is only a theory, a very credible theory which utilises evidence spanning the sciences but a theory nontheless. People who belive in ID are entitled to their belief, why shouldn't they? They have access to all the evidence I do and they still come to an alternate conclusion, good for them. I for one believe that taking any scientific theory (i.e. evolution) as gospel is inherently unscientific as it allows for the stagnation of scientific progress and discovery. Had Newton been held as untouchable Einstien may not have made the great discoveries he had, simply because he would have been shouted down for heresy. However until a more suitable, less flawed theory is developed or more evidence is found, I believe in Evolution. I'm not going to get into a discussion of faith as personal faith has nothing whatsoever to do with me, it's your choice which deity/being/technology you choose to devote your life to. What I am concerned with is this ridiculous attitude on both sides where they cannot countenance the thought of there being people who do not hold their own views. Accept the fact that there is a difference of opinion, hold debates and discussion if you will but treat the it as if this was any other scientific debate amongst peers, instead of the personal jibes and constant sneering at one another.
@ Starman:
Thank you for your kind words, did not say was off TDF, just this doc. for now.
We can still get together on other doc"s. eire, me, and others are on the wormhole ones right now.
Chow.
Ok... I've deleted around 200 comments from this post. The discussion deteriorated heavily.
All future inappropriate comments will be also deleted.
@ Achem: Nice talking to you too. I actually made a comment in support of you several comments back, but it has been held up in moderation for some reason, though it was quite courteous to you and I thought respectful. May be one day you will get it. Hope you hang in there with your beliefs and do not let anyone else ever shake you up for standing up for yourself.
@ Starman:
Well, of course nobody hardly knows anything, so does that mean we should not try?
It was nice talking to you, am off this particular site, will go back on other doc's to where they are still asking questions.
Chow.
@ betty
That is what we say. We just also include that we don't believe in something we don't have any evidence for. Why would we? It's like believing in unicorns. Sure they *could* exist, and be hiding from us... We don't *know* that they aren't real... But people in general don't believe in them.
See the problem again comes from being unable to ever prove that something *doesn't* exist. It's just not possible. Therefore you can either believe on faith, or look at the lack of evidence and not believe until evidence shows up.
Saying you don't know without saying which seems more logical is just a cop out really. You don't want to say it's true, because you can't prove it, but you don't want to be ostracized by saying it isn't true either. That's my opinion anyway, based on personal experience.
If anyone else can honestly say that they've said they don't know to something that no evidence for exists, I'd like to hear when and why they said it. Was it say, for a child about Santa? That doesn't count for obvious reasons. Can anyone give a real time they've ever argued in support of something that had no actual evidence? Without God being involved? Without it simply being out of pride and not wanting to admit to being wrong? When you weren't a stubborn child who simply believed because you wanted to? No? Then why do the same for God? Seems like when it comes to him we're still stubborn children refusing to admit that there was no monster under the bed, or in the closet. For some crazy reason, we actually BELIEVE it's there...
@ Betty:
I have said that above to Achem that "the only thing I know is that I don't know." Betty, my late mother's name, very nice.
Thanks for making my point!
Starman
@ betty:
If we say we "don't know", then what do we talk about?
i like it how everybody becomes scientists, philosophers and god experts after such movies. cant anyone say. i dont know?
@ eire:
Yes, time is woven into the fabric of space and together they make spacetime as we know it.
I always seem to go beyond that though, erroneously thinking people should already know what is I am talking about. (LOL)
Was going beyond that to other theories, Julian Barbuor's, end of time theory, for one. Won't go any further on this then, don't want to complicate matters.
@Achems
Well I say Time/space-time is totally relevant even though it doesnt fit quite as nicely but still it cant be overlooked as a mathematical element since everything we do is based on our perceived idea of time.
Eireannach - Gaelic for Irish as in a man or woman 666 because its fun to poke the religees at all times!
4d - three of them fixed( X,Y,Z) in relation eachother and one moving away at C.
Basically sayin that every spot in 3d is expanding into the 4d sphere assuming a radius = Plank lenth. 4d expands at C, making photon velocity also C.
If one wished to be at a "stand still" 4d you would have to move at C through 3d. Like befor the 4d is expanding at C through the stationary 3d.
Just so you know we are 4d
@ Zelda
I don't want to admit God is in control? This statement assumes much about me that you do not know. I would have spoken on it, but no one asked. However since you have so easily assumed I guess I should clear the record.
For you information, when I first lost my belief in my mothers insane church (called so by EVERYONE who isn't in it, even other believers) I simply believed that her particular church was wrong. I believed if I looked around hard enough, there was a church somewhere that could explain the problems I had found in the bible. That they could show me the correct interpretation, all I had to do was pray earnestly and God would show me the way.
This would have been far better than becoming an unbeliever, because then at least my family would be willing to talk to me about my beliefs, and listen to why I believed what I believed, even if only in the hopes of bringing me back to the fold. I of course intended to use this time to show them the REAL truth, the things they were missing. Then we could all rejoice together in the REAL truth. Funny thing is, every time I found another priest, in the same religion, in a different religion, no-one could answer my questions.
Not one. Not without resorting to "Well, the Lord works in mysterious ways." Or, "You have to have Faith". And a bunch of other ambiguous statements that say, "I don't know." In fact, I only ever found ONE priest who when he DIDN'T know, he would say, let me go and pray about it, and I tell you when God reveals it to me. I respect him. He gave the best answers I ever got. Unfortunately there were many questions he couldn't answer. I still speak to him about the bible, and he is the ONLY religious person I've met (in person) who will listen, actually CONSIDER what I say when I speak, and actively seek an answer when he doesn't know one offhand. Unfortunately he is getting on in age and will not be around much longer.
I will miss him when he goes. See, the problem is, that the more I looked for God, the more I couldn't see him. The more atheism seemed to be true. I resisted for a long time. Even went so far as to accept the Ancient Alien theory, because then well, God made the aliens! All because I knew that if the pressure was already bad, it'd be even worse if my family found out I didn't believe in ANY god anymore... They wouldn't just talk down about my beliefs without suitable discussion, or just look at me condescendingly whenever religion was brought up.
They'd shun me completely. You know why? Because the church taught them that their blood family wasn't their real family; only the people in their specific branch of Christianity were their family. And I really didn't want to face the world alone. I like Thanksgiving and birthdays. I like having people I can rely on when I'm in trouble, as long as I do the same for them. But I can't do it anymore. I've already begun preparing myself for the inevitable complete separation of myself from my birth family because I know it's coming.
I've seen it when my cousin left to become Muslim. Imagine me, even worse, having no God? I'd be a demon possessed black sheep. Because you know demons are to blame for everything, from getting sick, to being born deformed, to anything else you can think of. So no, it's not a fear of God being in control that makes me not believe. I WANTED God to be in control, because at least then I'd have a scapegoat for everything. It's harder to accept responsibility for my actions than to say: "Hey, God controls everything right? Even bad things are according to his plan. So me doing ______ is God's fault. It's what he wants." I wish God was in control of everything. Then I wouldn't have to dread the eventual "coming out" that I'm going to have to do soon so I don't go mad from leading a double life around my family.
@ Starman:
That is something that I agree on, time is basically an illusion created to give a flow of motion.
Physics can best be described more eloquently without time being involved into the computations, especially QM.
Kind of like this thread, multi-dimensional. Awesome analogy, Eireannach666. Cool name, BTW. What does it mean? I think the time/space issue being that not of an ether but of a seamless whole that flows and it being a matter of geometry that everything including the quantum spring forth from the quantum foam. Time is but secondary invention of mankind, not a primary dimension, although Einstein used the concept of it successfully to explain his theories quite elegantly.
@starman
Did you forget about time/space-time itself as being an issue of our dimensionality?
The mice did adapt. Let's hope our ideas and theories will be so hardy and flexible to the changing environment of knowledge and not perish before they bear fruit and new generation of wisdom and knowledge to be reaped by it progenitors.
Funny, Ben Stein who is responsible for this thread is on TV right now talking about Free Score dot com, with cute evolutionarily generated squirrels watching the people get whacked on the head. I think I will chose the squirrels on this one and go find some more nuts, Lol, just kidding. :)
@starman
Have a good one.
I will say this though. You said,"Seems nature does not like waste and the simplest and most efficient designs are always the preferred methods of choice."
Is this not NS/Evo you are describing? I think you just might not understand evolution. I dont mean that as an insult either , just think you should do some more research.
Slainte'
Wow, you guys have been busy while I was gone eh? Just for the record, we are ALL hypocrites at times. Myself included. None of us manage to ALWAYS keep up with the standards we set. We're human. We screw up. It happens. That's all there is to it. But as for the second law of thermodynamics, do we REALLY have to explain this again? This is applied in a CLOSED SYSTEM. Earth is NOT a closed system. Therefore it does not apply the way you think it does. It's just like someone once said: "Deists keep quoting the 2nd law, but do you know the other laws?" In most cases the answer is no. Since I do not know you and can't ask you face to face without giving you time to research the answers I can't prove what you do or don't know abut thermodynamics. But it seems that you don't know just from your previous statement. This is called an "educated guess". We use the same thing to determine what happened in the past when we don't have 100% evidence to prove what happened. Making an educated guess with the evidence you DO have available is better than making up a magical man to say: "He did it!" That's why we can assume that the beginning of everything was composed of the sum of everything in the universe. Because we can see that those things exist, and therefore it is logical to say that they could have been here before. We cannot see, feel, or even hear God. Not aloud anyway, not where EVERYONE can hear him. So to assume his existence is NOT a educated guess.
On another note, isn't it strange? When the Jews wanted to hear God's voice for themselves, rather than listen to what Moses said God said, because even they who believed knew that hey, he COULD be lying... God supposedly talked to them all, but they couldn't handle it. So a chosen few were able to stand and speak the words. That's interesting to me. They couldn't handle it? You mean God couldn't communicate in a voice that they could hear without being "special"? (Read: Coached by Moses ahead of time.) I thought God could do anything! Why CAN'T he control his voice? Even I can raise, lower, or use sound technology to change the sound of my voice. I can raise and lower it into and out of the human hearing range. And do the same with other people's or even other animals voices. An all powerful God CAN'T!? Wow. No wonder we don't believe in him.
i was using the familiar analogy of the 2D creatures striving to understand a 3D reality, and of course we not on 2D. 11 dimensions, well that is a far cry from the simplicity of e=mc2, and not elegant at all. Therefore I will abstain from commenting until a simpler explanation of the experimental observations comes into respectable assemblage. I think you can just keep adding on mathematical band-aids to incomplete theories to try and fix them, but you will end up with the same unwieldy mess as the epicycles were. Somewhere you are missing something if it has to be that complex to be true. Seem nature does not like waste and the simplest and most efficient designs are always the preferred methods of choice. Well I will let you know in another billion years or so whether I agree with the evolution theory, though of course anything is possible, theoretically speaking of course. Nice talking to you guys. I have to go, but I have thoroughly enjoyed passing the afternoon here with you gentlemen, and ladies!
Well the mice would either adapt or become extinct.
No starman No. Bad starman!
This doesnt happen overnight. This happens over thousands to billions of years at a time depending on what we are talking about evolving.
Overtime if the pressures of the environment changed even more drastically than these mice would have changed even more so and so on until they were completely different. And this is just a small example but it is still them adapting to their environment, A chameleon is not evolving since it is a trait already of use to it. That is just a natural defense and predatory characteristic of this animal. How do you think it got that way and all other lizards did not?
I think you are mis-interpreting evolutionary adaptation and natural selection with normal characteristics. Sunburn is what happens when you get too much sun. BUt I will say that the lack of sun causes a D deficiency and has alot to do with the different colors of people as they migrated out of Africa. This evolution.
11 dimensions starman , 11. And we are not on 2d my friend.
Fermi lab, ah yes, The university of Chicago anf the great Enrico Fermi who built the first atomic pile there when ther was just the Met lab and Arthur Compton ran it during the Manhattan project. Fermi was instrumental as well as Ulam at Los Alamos in figuring out the science needed to carry out a controlled nuclear reaction, that led to the construction of Little Boy and Fat Man. A brilliant theorist, among many brilliant theorist. The Fermilab, well I get a new letter every month that is called Symmetry and I read it when I get the chance. Fanstastic the progress being made toward understanding the basic constuents of matter. What of the LHC? Why all of the hype about the blackhole being created there. Too bad that US Congress killed the SuperCollider that was to be built in Texas, and that allowed the cutting edge of particle physics to move to Europe. Let's hope American's can still be a part of the international effort, whether at Fermilab or LHC!!
Well, then if changing color is evolution, then obviously I have misconstrued your definitions. Chameleons do that, but they are still chameleons, they did not morph into another reptile, a mammal or a bird. That is what I thought you were referring to here as evolution. In that case is suntan evolution? I am just asking here. So adapting to an environment is evolution. Then yes there is evolution. My question is that it has never been seen where one species turned into another AND been conclusively documented. As far as the higher intelligence I call God, it does not require you to believe in its existence or be put under a microscope to exist. There is a so much that we do not know. We are on a two dimensional view of things that are three dimensional and beyond. You know the analogy. Also, I have personal knowledge of this entity I call God, that is equal to or greater than the personal knowledge I have of you, yet I suppose you really do exist, and are not just malfunction of my computer keyboard randomly hacking out your side of the conversation in minute synchronicity to mine. And thank you for the compliment about my being a somewhat smart person, though there is some room for cynicism there too! I agree with your materialistic viewpoint about the star stuff and the sea stuff too! In fact I am a big fan of the universe and all of its cosmic wonders. How queer we should seem at odds at all on anything, with scarce a disagreeable chap among us! -- Starman
@starman
Are you familiar with the Fermilab collider and what they are doing there? You should google the lab and collider and see how far we have gotten on this issue thus far and then wait 10yrs and see...and also go back ten and compare.
This is also a good analogie of how we come to our conclusions on what happened. Looking at what is as opposed to what was builds a conclusion of the future.. It is a weak analogy for this but I think you get what I am saying.
Starman, does your lab produce even one shred of evidence for all your god's, ID, creationism, etc:??
@starman
Evolution has been reproduced all over the world. For instance , A volcano went off on an island and thus the environment changed. The ground went from green to gray. There was a species of mice that were at one time black to hide from predators and when the environment changed to grey , within 15yrs or so they managed to change color. No more black mice but instead grey but the same species. Natural selection at it s finest!
Seems to me you are somewhat a smart person. Why so stubborn?
The fact that we are such a minority in this universe ought to be enough to see that such circumstances to create this earth and this universe are far from farfetched. We are and all here in the universe are star stuff, Our whole molecular structure and all life on earth, even earth itself is star stuff. You being a chemistry fan should be well aware of this by now?
I am not saying what in the history of the cosmos as we know it preceded what has been called the big bang, because I was not there, but neither were you. All we can do is speculate which is useless, but whatever did precede it must have been really something and I wish I could have witnessed it. What a miraculous course of events to get to me and you and this forum. I think that is worth raising a glass to my friend, however it happened! What say ye?
Starman, I would like to know also, what you think caused the big bang,
Until you can reproduce it in the lab it is still a theory of evolution. Like I said I do not care if you are right or not, just realize that you still base your theory on assumption, and that probability that mankind came from a series of accidental or self-organized processes is highly improbable, bilions times billions times billions of events all occcuring precisely in the right order and proportions at the right time. That is bad science, or least I never got my chemistry experiments to work that way and neither did anyone else, with a whole lot less elements to organize and conditions to meet. If you ARE right then I want to go to Vegas with you!
@ eire666:
Yes, by definition, biologically we are members of the "Animalia Kingdom"
We are animals. Albeit a thinking species.
What are you saying happened to cause the big bang then?
@starman
Faith is based on absolutely nothing and used as reassurance
for the naive, All the above is based on facts that we do know and have proven and is based on these truths. It is not faith but the most likely probabilities that could happen based on what we know.
I have never seen macro evolution, though it really does not matter to me, how life arrived. Empirical evidence, then show me some, not just a series of fossils that you assume derived one from another's ancestors. Show me the process occurring in the lab or else you still base your science on certain assumptive beliefs, not empirical evidence. That is called faith my friend. Mine is not different from yours except that I have an open mind as to how it all came about. What did occur 1 x 10 -e42 seconds before the big bang? I hope it was a great explosion of infinite power bringing the universe into existence before our physics even came into being or time and space made sense. You see it is always a leap of faith, no matter where you start on the wheel of knowledge. I just believe in intelligent entities giving rise to their own reality to do with as they please. Gee, they sound a bit like us, or at least what we are trying to bring about in our labs and our churches don't they? So live and live and let nature be your teacher.
@starman
We are apes. Weare a differant type of ape branching off from this common ancestor. Think of it as a tree, when it first sprouts it has but 1 branch and eventuall they get to numerous
and different in most ways but all have a common starting point.
@starman
"In that case I better get and infinite number of monkeys and typewriters and put them to work on that Shakespearean play."
You see this is evolution and evolution is fact my friend. What is it about evolution specifically that you have a problem digesting. I mean just because the odds were great shouldn't be enough to disregard the evidence there for.
The odds that an earth would exist in the universe is even greater yet you dont deny its existence as a fact?
Everyones reality is their own.
@ Starman:
Yes, everything has to be proven by empirical evidence and then to facts.
You said beliefs? yes, that is what you have, beliefs, but you cannot take beliefs to the bank.
Darwin evolved from Apes?? Then he is the only one. Humans and Apes share a common ancestor,
You said probabilities, yes, everything hinges on probabilities.
My reality is my reality, regardless of who else believes it, or how I came to that conclusion. I am sticking by it unless I have overwhelming evidence to show me differently. We are free to disagree. TI can hardly blame you. That is the difference between science based on personal experience in the lab, backed up by a conglomeration of statistical analysis and corresponding theory, and what many call religion. One is based on yourself and your world experiences coloring your belief systems of the truth of reality and the the other is based on statistical analysis and repeatable results. i combine the two. They are inseparable to me. I do not oblige you to come down to my level of understanding in what I accept as truth, neither do I kowtow to others, although a simple explanation of your point of view would be over a nice cup of tea would suffice at times.
To be or not be, THAT IS the question. Isn't it?
"To be, to be, what does it mean to be?" Neils Bohr
Everything does not have to be proved by empirical statements. Somethings you just know from experience. If you do not have the same knowledge and experiences as one who believes differently, then you cannot judge fairly whether another's fall short or not. The scientific method only applies to science, not God unless your God is science, then go right ahead and apply it. Yes, I am a hypocrite, and I believe that evolution is a complex mechanism that is not necessarily the best way for anything to have come into being. For sure there are intelligences beyond our own comprehension, and we are certainly more than just meat sandwiches with a brain. Of course, it still may be true that Darwin DID evolve from apes, eh? As for all others, the odds of all that would would have to occur to come to the point of advancement the human race has evolved to may be more than all of the information in the universe could ever have self-organized no matter how much time is allowed to pass. Unless you believe in as great cosmic roll of the dice that came to together at higher and higher levels of order over time. I believe the second law of thermodynamics and entropy is against that probability even once in the lifetime of the universe, although anything is possible. In that case I better get and infinite number of monkeys and typewriters and put them to work on that Shakespearean play. You can choose which one!
@starman
Youd have to admit that anytime you see a doc like this , well scratch that , most any doc , you get all the religees bring religion to the table first. Most people on here want to talk about the docs but it seems religees like to come test their faith in a science doc. We have to constantly rehash the same arguments about religion because of this.
Oh well , everyone is free to their opinion , right?
But I understand what you mean there.
@Zelda
What visable , tested proof do you have for god? What are your sources for this proof?
Just curious?
I'm not perfect, but I can learn too. Thanks for making a point. I just hope we can keep this one level above school-yard antics here and try to learn from the documentaries AND each other. This is a great website. Let's not turn it into another internet flame war. Stein is entertaining and shrewd. I enjoy listening to him no matter his source of material or point-of-view.
@starman
One shouldnt press their religion if they dont want to be disagreed with. Disagreements are not mockings and expressing ones thoughts on anthers statement is not catcalling as you put it.
You should head your own words. What was this then? "Grow up and learn that no one knows it all etc.." Sounds to me like you are quite the hypocrite. Eat your own feed back , my friend.
Slainte'
@Anyone
Who said this? "“The books that are called immoral are books that show its own shame.” ??
@ Starman:
Right, then you should practise what preach! Check your above posts.
I was once a mocker, arrogant and a bully to those who believed differently than me. It only made me a smaller person and gained nothing in understanding or felicity among human kind in its struggle to understand. if you disagree with each other at least be civil about it. This forum is not for personal attacks, but to express a different perspective on the documentary. I do not see that happening here. Grow up and learn that no one knows it all, but together we can begin to see a wider perspective, and at least learn to appreciate our differences, or what is the point of humanity and our differences slight as they may be with other carbon based life forms? After all what would Ben Stein say if was here to witness this catcalling?
@Zelda
You know your god is man-made when he hates all the same people you do.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
@Achems
I think Im on a Sagan trip today? This would make it the third time I quoted him today.Hmm
@ Zelda:
I forgot to add, all religion is basically forced on everyone all the time! So give it a rest.
@ Zelda:
Their is no evidence for the existence of any god's. None, even not one out of the 28,000,000 god's in recorded history.
The Universe (Earth) was not fined tuned for humanity, humanity was tuned for the Universe (Earth) through the process of "Evolution"!!
You god is not righteous and holy, he is a mean "bast*rd" read the old testament!
No proof that such a person as Jesus even existed.
Google..."Problems with the Bible"...click on problems with the bible.
Dee, James J, and Starman
For the sake of space, I’ll respond to all of you @ the same time. First, I’ll ask this: If your ignorance is based upon unbelief, don’t you owe it to yourself, to discover if your unbelief, is truth?
There is more evidence for the existence of GOD, than His non-existence. I would venture to say that if you look @ what is available in terms of evidence, i.e. sources within and outside of Christianity, you will discover this to be true. Google whatever you wish if you are so inclined to ask the questions.
Now, what’s really behind your unbelief is the moral question. This comes down to whether or not you want to admit that GOD is in control or you. Because if GOD is in control then you have to answer to HIM, and not yourselves. The issue is whether or not you want to be accountable for the sins you have committed. Because you see GOD, who created everything is Sovereign and well, we are not. He is the judge, He is righteous and HOLY, and will punish sin. People don’t want to acknowledge the ‘s’ word because that would mean they would have to think seriously about GOD.
Not one person having ever lived can say that they are without sin except 1 person, JESUS. For the bible states: ‘THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS; THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS AFTER GOD. THEY HAVE ALL TURNED ASIDE; THEY HAVE TOGETHER BECOME UNPROFITABLE; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, NO, NOT ONE." Romans 3:11-12 NKJV
People want to be GOD in their lives, you know do their own thing. GOD’s standard of righteousness is the Ten Commandments, and we must be sinless. This goal is unattainable, on our own, but GOD made a way thru JESUS. He took the place of all that would put their trust in HIM for Salvation.
Christianity isn’t ‘forced’ on anyone Dee, however with islam that’s a different story. Regarding historical record, are you aware that The Bible has more documents that have survived antiquity, including the works of Julius Caesar, Homer, etc? Sources outside of Christianity attest to existence of Our LORD JESUS CHRIST, check it out for yourself.
James J, the big bang occurred, and was controlled. The universe is finely tuned so that live exists here and no place else, and if let’s say that one of the elements were out of place, life could not exist here. Again everyone, belief in GOD is a moral issue. GOD gave us a conscience, that’s our barometer to let us know if what we do is right or wrong, and truth is not relative but absolute. All of you have done things, sinful things that you are guilty about, and/or ashamed of, things you wish you could erase. You have sinned against GOD, and will be judged. But in HIS eternal love for you, HE sent JESUS, HIS Son to be sacrificed for you. GOD sacrificed HIMSELF for you because HE loves you:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." John 3:16-21 NKJV
I think it is exactly what religion does. It limits our freedom and thinking.
Bytheway, nice movie clip. I doubt if it was a documentary.
Nothingness is a valid state. Our conscious thoughts resides there and in fact in a creation of its own reality. Information sits at the center of consciousness. Else, we would never have a thought to think about, so therefore the seed of reality is information. Did this information pass down to us from the thought and will of another consciousness? It would seem logical, although in the end a circular logic exists. Which came first the chicken or the egg. Condition is everything. Your belief depends upon a starting point in your assumptions. Our something could have come from nothing, and not a point of infinite density which carries its own burden of proof that is usually swept aside in favor of the other results that have come from theoretical physics, which in turn mirrors ancient philosophies. Where stand on a subject depends on where you sit, and is indicative of the self-serving biases we all carry with us, ready to whip out on a moment's provocation to our sensibility and sanity. So thank you for your opinions, however different from my own they might be.
One tiny flaw with your argument Zelda. You said, nothing comes from nothing. Ok, say we take that. So we are then to assume that there was always something in the beginning right? This you get god from in your argument. But here is where you make your mistake, going your argument, saying that there was always SOMETHING, doesn't mean that the something that was always in existence has to be a conscious being. Why can't the something that always existed, be simply the entirety of mass in the universe? Why does it have to be alive? Or even if it is alive, why does it have to be an all powerful life-form? Your argument only states that something must exist since the dawn of everything. It does NOT give you any ability to decide WHAT that something must be.
@Zelda
How do you propose someone asks God something when they do not even think he exists?
A good majority of America's founding fathers were athiest or agnostics, look it up, and those that were believers agreed that, and this is going to shock you here, there should be SERPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.
Your rights as a christian, muslin, jew, etc...are not being erroded. In fact, the Christian right has one of the largest lobby groups in the US and usually gets what they want in the end. Atheists, although most believe no religion at all would be best, are content to allow others to believe as they want as long as it does not interfere or infringe on the rights and lives of others, something that happens quite often.
How can you say that your faith is the correct faith when Muslim men, women and children are willing to blow themselves up for their faith? Would that not lead one to believe that their faith is stronger and therefore the right one?
The biggest problem most people have with religion is that it gets forced on those who do not believe and is considered by many one of the biggest lies ever told. There is no historical records or accuracy of many things in the bible, a book that the religious take as truth.
You cannot just decide that because your god can't be explained that he sits outside of all explanation. That is a cop out and if science thought this way then we would not have advanced past the stone age.
GOD Exists!
I challenge any atheist to ask GOD, specifically JESUS if HE exists. If you truly wish to know the answer, instead of coming to a conclusion which you have no direct knowledge about, go to the source, ask GOD. Ask HIM to reveal himself to you as Scripture states:
Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
Jeremiah 29:12-13 KJV
Atheist are unaware of alot of things concerning GOD, most of which HE is Sovereign, which means HE is in control and not them. I was very bothered by Dawkins statement during his visit with Stein. He said a lot of blasphemous things about GOD, but HE is merciful. Others have said worse and have been forgiven.
I just finished watching the documentary, and have only this to say, STein is correct when he speaks about our freedoms being @ risk. I was in Washington D.C.this past 4th of July and got a chance to look @ our founding documents. At the very end of the exhibit area there was a document that was out of place. Displayed there was the Charter of the United Nations. Why I ask is the Charter of the United Nations displayed with our founding document?
I believer there is an agenda to disolve our freedoms that our founding fathers fought for. Our very way of life. People, ignorant people as if they had a clue talk about America not being a Christian Nation, like they have knowledge of this. Our very freedoms are being erroded right before our eyes. I dare anyone to google qoutes from our founding fathers and see in fact if they mention GOD.
The fact that atheist don't want to believe there is a Creator is the fact that they want to continue in their sins. They don't want to have to answer to GOD who will hold them accountable. There is absolute truth and we can know it.
The following is taken from GOTQuestion.org concerning who created GOD:
A common argument from atheists and skeptics is that if all things need a cause, then God must also need a cause. The conclusion is that if God needed a cause, then God is not God (and if God is not God, then of course there is no God).
This is a slightly more sophisticated form of the basic question “Who made God?” Everyone knows that something does not come from nothing. So, if God is a “something,” then He must have a cause, right?
The question is tricky because it sneaks in the false assumption that God came from somewhere and then asks where that might be. The answer is that the question does not even make sense. It is like asking, “What does blue smell like?” Blue is not in the category of things that have a smell, so the question itself is flawed. In the same way, God is not in the category of things that are created or caused. God is uncaused and uncreated—He simply exists.
How do we know this? We know that from nothing, nothing comes. So, if there were ever a time when there was absolutely nothing in existence, then nothing would have ever come into existence. But things do exist. Therefore, since there could never have been absolutely nothing, something had to have always been in existence. That ever-existing thing is what we call God. God is the uncaused Being that caused everything else to come into existence. God is the uncreated Creator who created the universe and everything in it.
@ dancingspiderman
Upon re-reading said post, I also was trying to tell people to stop pretending they had "Facts" that could "Prove" that their religion was right when their own religion stated that it couldn't be proven. I wasn't attempting to tell them to not bring up their religious beliefs at all. After all, if they don't bring them up for discussion, they can never be expected to learn anything about them, leaving them no way to change their thinking. Which would perpetuate what their religions want them to do anyway.
Although I will readily admit that I did go a bit too far with my "argumentative cap" as you called it. (I found that line both funny and true.) I should probably refrain from posting on a religious forum directly after being completely frustrated by a religious argument had with my mother, who refuses to see any reason at all and where I can't get a word in unless I become rude and shout my words out. :D
@ dancingspiderman
You said:
But what YOU SHOULD NOT DO HERE is to tell people to not bring up their beliefs.
I don't believe I said that people shouldn't "bring up" their beliefs... if you are referring to a post I made on some other pages where at the end I stated in all caps "STOP TRYING!!!" I simply meant for people to stop trying to bullishly CONVERT people. If it seemed otherwise I do apologize for my not being clear enough. I NEVER meant that people shouldn't speak about their beliefs. That is against everything I believe in.
As for scientists pushing things they have no data on, yes it is true that it does happen, and it happens more frequently than some people care to admit. Those particular scientists are indeed turning their belief into their own personal "religion" you could say, (though it's not *quite* the same it's close enough for the comparison to be made) and are making their data fit the model. However OVERALL, science is doing a great deal for finding truth. This is why even with science, you must check and re-check your sources, and their data before accepting what has been said.
Again however, if it seemed I was trying to tell people to basically shut up rather than not be so... pushy, I do apologize.
@ starman
I was merely making a point about the suffering, not being literal. Much like you accuse us non-theists of taking the bible too literally, we are often taken too literally.
J.J.:
Trust me when I say that, here in this TDF website, YOU DO have quite a large number of thinking fellows. But what YOU SHOULD NOT DO HERE is to tell people to not bring up their beliefs. The various branches of Science are merely sets of zelously-held and defended beliefs (religions). And the dogma of the current belief gets modified funeral by funeral.
For decades now, the talking head physics scientits perpetuate concepts about M-branes and multiverses but yet they have no single robust set of mathematical formulae nor repeatable empirical data with which to support this belief, yet their administrator bosses lobby like crooked politicians and rake in hundreds of millions of dollars every year to create the next big experiment or to keep the current SCientits Employment Gravy Train well stocked and chugging along. Step outside your strongly held point of view of the science industry, and that is the understanding that you can't HELP but see.
I've noticed that the debate posts of this kind SHOULD BE taking place in the TDF FORUM part of this website, but hardly anybody posts and reads there; it's the lonely Pluto-Cheron bus stop that nobody uses except for a few lonesome fugly hairy Yodas. The part of the website this comment resides in now is supposed to be used to discuss non-debateable aspects of the film. I won't give examples; you'll have to don your non-argumentative thinking cap, and not be yourself for a few minutes. I know, for some of you, this is impossible to do.
But there you go... it takes all kinds to make this World happen; even the people you DON'T agree with. ESPECIALLY those people.
It is no fun to suffer for any reason, particularly for something stupid like what you believe. Sometimes we bring it own ourselves by acting stupidly and not respecting others boundaries. Sometimes the attack is unprovoked. As far as holy writing and delusional is concerned, we have gone so far past Darwin, but you still cling to the mathematical improbability of the Rubik's cube of life theory. Mankind is on track for creating life, or so they believe, and his own creations are on their way to an AI version of themselves and will eventually write themselves out of the equation. So what is outlandish about us being created? Certainly there have to be smarter entities out there than us, who can create their own reality. I happen to call my God. Watch out for what you don't understand, it may be your downfall some day.
Here's the final killer:
Religious people are always complaining about being "persecuted" or "made war on" and other non-sense. And ok, sure a very small percentage of atheists MAY do so, but I doubt it. It's probably just people getting sick and tired of being shouted over when they try to talk normally, and so they finally shout back. But even if that's not the case, your bible SAYS that you are going to be persecuted, and so forth for you faith. Therefore you should be HAPPY that you are supposedly being "persecuted" because according to your delusional thinking, that should prove you right! Or do you not believe your own "holy" writings?
On another note, further proof that (some) people who claim to believe in God don't really believe as they claim.
Most of the men and women I know that changed their religion, did it because it was the religion of their new spouse. My cousin for instance. She was raised in the same fundamentalist christian church I was, turned catholic with the father of her son, then muslim because of the father of her recent daughter. To me this says that she can't possibly TRULY believe in God, or at least not God the way he appears in ANY religion, because if she did, she would NEVER change religions for any man, simply out of fear of God's wrath. Being able to change religions shows one of two things depending on why you did it:
1) You are at least *somewhat* rational, saw problems with your previous religion, and found another you believe is closer to the truth. This is better than most people, as you can at least (usually) have a rational conversation with these people as they are what I call passive truth seekers. (By which I mean that they won't simply deny anything they don't like the sound of as long as you have rational argument to provide, even if they don't look for the holes in their beliefs themselves.)
2) You don't believe in God at all, you only use him as a crutch because he makes your life easier by being able to believe that you have someone watching over you and that your life has purpose.
Okay, so there's a three.
3) You do believe in A God, but not THE God preached by these religions. You believe that there are many paths to God and that none of the religions are truly right, and so simply find the one best for your lifestyle. Of course, the question then is, why belong to a religion at all? Why not just be a good person and find "path" to God? But whatever, your choice I guess....
Note: I'll be referring to myself as "James J" From now on since I have found another James who posts on this site and don't want to be confused with him.
@DancingSpiderman
Lol. Well fortunately, it's not a religion at all. If it was I'd have to make some kind of rule about headgear. (George Carlin side-joke there.) I just hate the fact that I can't seem to find other like minded individuals who are able to discuss other possibilities even if they don't believe in them. I find that the problem with believing anything is that it makes it difficult for you to honestly see the other side, even if you are open minded. When I argue a point, the way I base my arguments is how some people play chess. I try to see what moves I would make if I were the opposition. If I actually truly BELIEVED as they do. By doing so, I enable myself to see things from both perspectives, which is why I was able to not be a part of the insane religion I grew up in to begin with.
You see, my mother taught me to question everything. As a child she was always told that children are seen and not heard, and that you don't ask questions, you just listen. This frustrated her, and she swore that she wouldn't do this to her children. When she had me, I was allowed to ask any question, as long as I did it politely, and LISTENED to the answer, and thought about it, before simply refuting it. Unfortunately for her, (and fortunately for me) I did not make religion the exception to this. I applied this type of thinking to religion just like anything else. This caused my freedom. I do not understand how my mother can think like me in every way, EXCEPT when it comes to religion. It's just beyond me. But, as others have said, much of religion's power is due to how children are raised. I was raised to question, and my mother had left the church for a while, but went back when I was a child out of fear. Fortunately I was around 5 or 6 at the time, so I had 5-6 years of being taught to think rationally before the dogma tried to settle in.
Hold the show, James... whatEVER your religee is... SIGN ME UP.
I'll sell my house in town. Quit chatting for a while, and hand me one of those cone-shaped paper cups for to drink in my Kool-Aid. just...
SIGN ME UP.
Also, why are Christians so concerned with proving that there was a creator? It doesn't help their religion at all! After all, proving that there was a God-like being who started creation, doesn't mean that it was YOUR God-like being! There are hundreds, if not thousands of Gods throughout Earth's religious history that have been credited with creating humanity. Even if science were to prove creationists right, you'd still have to hope and pray (lol) that you've picked the right one to worship! And who says that this creator is any ONE of the many Gods in our history? How do we know he even wants worship? We could just be one of his science experiments. After all, he/she/it would be this all powerful being and juuuust maybe he/she/it wanted to see what would happen if it created life. Just a thought.
To bring back an older topic, reincarnation IS in the bible in a roundabout way.
Jesus is asking the disciples "Who do you say that I am?" And they mention how some believe that he is Elisha or John the Baptist reborn. Now, these are the people who are going to be spreading God's word, and he NEVER stops to tell them that reincarnation couldn't happen! He only praises Peter for saying that he is the Christ. Which kinda sorta says that even though they were wrong, Jesus didn't see a problem with the idea of reincarnation.
It amazes me that people are determined to have an opinion when they can't even demonstrate that they have understood the basic argument presented in the show.
Willful ignorance is caused by an inability to absorb the opinions of other people. Narrow-minded people attach themselves to all types of idealogies and the Darwinists are no exception.
If you watched a significant part of this documentary and think it is talking about creationism, you now have proof that you are even more stupid than the people you feel you have the right to insult.
If you are going to critize something in future try and switch on your brain and pay a little bit of attention. You may even learn something one day.
Can't stand fanatics of any kind but those who use science as a front to hide their mental rigidity are arrogant arses.
PAY ATTENTION
DancingSpiderman,
Believe me, the only way to be safe from the internet, is not to use it!
Even then...
It doesn't matter. If someone wants to find you they can, you would be horryfied to know how easy it is. There is no security on the internet, that is a myth... a comfortable lie, that people tell themselves.
And, I am sorry you are lonely. There is someone out there for you!
Good luck!
@ John Copolella
ABout the "gaze into your lover's eyes" line... I don't HAVE a lover, because I'm just a lonely fugly Yoda
BTW, you really SHOULDN'T use your real name on any website. Identity theft and all...
@John Copolella
Yes, I agree with that, as The Buddha said, 'don't take anyone's word for it'-- or so I'm told he did anyway!
It's good not to be analytic all the time as well, which is what I think you're saying.
'A person who thinks all time, has nothing to think about except thoughts. So, he loses touch with reality, and lives in a world of illusion'
Alan Watts
Thanks for that Peeling Paint. All I am saying is to yourselves a little credit and use the brain you have, however you believe you arrived here with it at all, and to think for yourselves first. Do not take what Stein, Darwin, me or anyone else says without checking out the evidence yourselves. This can be empirically or by induction if that is all you can do after the fact. The information is presented here to bolster the documentary creator's point of view. Nip this in the bud, form your own thoughts independently, and then weigh the arguments in favor of where the greatest and most believable points exist according to your intuition and life experiences. This is all IMO anyhow, since none of us were there or least remember being there at the dawn(s) of life, whatever your definition of that happens to be today. It all comes down to faith in your universal/world-view and semantics. For every argument there are one or more counter-arguments. Therefore, look out your window, take a walk and look up at the stars tonight, or gaze into a child's or your lover's eyes and then decide how many "miracles", literal or figuratively, had to occur for you to be here reading this today. Science, mathematics, evolution, or theology, anyway you bite into the apple of truth, at its core it all comes down to some number crunching faith in something.
@starman
Ventner didn't come close to making synthetic life-- that just makes a good headline and provides good material for 'whatever next' watercooler conversations.
It is sad to think that we are on the verge of creating synthetic life forms, although not sure if this equates to artificial life forms or even if there is such a thing, that we have this debate. If we can create life from organic materials, why can't we be prototypical creatures that were created, tested and either pass or fail the manufacturer's specifications. Especially if the competition poisoned the well and corrupted the whole batch that followed. I think our concept of God is to surreal and not real. An intelligent interdimensional being created a virtual reality for us to exist in and promises to deliver us from it if we only repent and believe in his son. Stop putting the creator out of reach of feelings and dignity, by putting him in a box. Let God be god and do his thing. You choose to believe if you like that an infinite number of monkeys given an infinite amount of time could create all of the works of Shakespeare, and you still would not mathematically be able to come close to astronomical odd against you existing and reading this today.
@Prayerless
He didn't. He implied that Darwin's ideas influenced those who orchestrated and allowed the holocaust. If you're going to express shock and disgust, it would be a lot more compelling if it was in response to what Stein and others in the film were saying.
I'm shocked and disgusted that Stein can dare to compare the Holocaust to the fight to keep intelligent design out of the classroom. You should be ashamed of yourself!
Oh, and BTW, they knew all about the tyranny of the papacy and your "Anglican" church... (and all other churches)
They wanted to free us from that, and you want to pull us back in...
Nice.
Oh, and BTW, OUR Founders, for the most part, were theists... kind of...
I mean, most were Freemasons at best, believing god was just some amorphous "Architect" but at worst they were pagans and agnostics.
I mean, this was before Darwin, but they were smart enough to smell that something was up with this "god-thing"...
But, they strove to free us from the tyranny of christian Europe.
@peelingpaint...
You have to give this up...
Um... Yes, if you are Anglish, then you have a slight leg up on my swamp-water, howling countrymen, however, I hear that christian screechers are starting to creep in even there...
Again, (and again), you just don't cheat because it is not the right thing to do. Not because some silly book tells you so.
Morality is something that is bred into the animal, the organism, to perpetuate the species.
We are social mammals. And that's all. Nothing more is needed. You are muddying the clear waters with your desire for a "soul"...
Whatever, my friend, you want it but you can not have it.
There is nothing waiting for you when you die. You and I are meat. That's it. There is no one and nothing looking out for us, and we are all on our way out-- act accordingly!
@Beck
I don't think that 'designing' necessarily needs a 'designer'-- this is a concept that's familiar to many Buddhists who believe that there's no 'doer' of any deed.
I'm sympathetic to Idealist philosophies, but strictly speaking more so to non-dualist ones, since I think that dualism involves contradictory beliefs... but anyway, I have no trouble in thinking that intelligence is fundamental and needs nothing to produce it. So, if God is fundamentally Mind, then there's no need for there to be any designer of him.
@Beck again,
I actually believe that reality *is* simple at source in a sense. In fact, I think it's 'nothing'-- Still, it must also be complex in *some* way, or where do we get the concept of complexity from?
@Randy
I'm English, so what your founding fathers thought isn't really my argument in a way, but it's an important question and I'd need to do some research. I think that they were deists on the whole? Though I'm not altogether sure what they meant by that-- I know it basically means that god started the universe going and then left it to get on with it, but I think there may be differing attitudes within that framework.
I've read evolutionary biology and psychology as well-- the latter *does* seem to make sense of the world and explain motivations, I'd agree-- although I now think that that's an illusion.
Even if I didn't have questions as to whether novel form, function, creativity, or motive really *can* arise from a combination of randomness and mindless laws, I'd still find evolutionary explanations of morality useless as regards motivating moral behaviour.
To explain-- from my memory of books such as Robert Wright's The Moral Animal, altruism evolved because altruism gave a reproductive advantage to creatures, and so the 'selfish genes' that promoted it prospered. However, a population of altruists can also maintain a subset of cheaters who take advantage of them. This can be shown mathematically. This makes sense on a metaphysical level as well, for how could altruism evolve, if it's opposite did not also evolve?-- they are mutually interdependent.
So, my point is, even if this mechanistic explanation is all there is to morality, how does understanding it tell you anything about the moral choices you are to make? How do you know that you are not one of the cheaters that will prosper? Even if you aren't, might there not be courage in trying, as long as you're prepared to face the consequences?
I'm sure that there is a strong case to be made that Abrahamic religions have caused a lot of trouble in the world. But I also think there is probably a strong case to be made for just about any idea in world history-- even communism-- some (not me) say it's never really been tried. Conclusions can soundly follow from premises, but those premises are never established by the argument in which they feature. Take the idea that nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution-- if 'evolution' there means neo-darwinism, then the existence of nested homologies *does* fit very nicely with it-- but that doesn't mean that they're a smoking gun for it.
Soz there was a delay in answering you btw, I had to make something to eat. I'll probably take a while for me to answer your next post as well, if you make one, because I have to go out now-- will give me time to think about it anyway.
@Beck
I agree, of course. The problem of infinite regress, (which you described well...)
However, my only disaggreement with your statement is the "complexity" part...
Really, we and everything I see around me, and every animal in the world, is not really that complex.
I mean, I have examined these thing in labs, and morgues... I have held the human organs in my hands, (as part of my anatomy rotations... the brain is interesting, it feels like the whites of hard-boiled eggs...) but, seriously... not complicated.
People who think it is... I don't know what to do for them...
I don't know, look more closely?
@Peelingpaint
ID is absolutely flawed even in its ridiculous fashion, even if you tried to look at it seriously (which is difficult) it has a huge gaping flaw.
Who created the creator?
Everything we make scientifically has a creator mainly humans. But humans came from somewhere, you say god. So where did God come from?
Something that can make everything this absolutely complex needs to be infinitely more complex and something even more complex had to make that thing.
Then it comes down to, there is absolutely 0 proof of ID. Lack of proof does not equate proof of its opposition.
@peelingpaint
Well, yes there is some hyperbolic self-satire there... and good call!
But, I use it to make a point!
I will say, that having a PhD in World History has taught me that what I say is really quite true. Also, my study of evolutionary biology and psychology has taught me all that I need of morality. It's very simple. No books needed! Just look outside!
And, the rancor I feel for these Abrahamic, religions of the "Book" were despised by our Founders as well...
(IF you are American... I do not want to assume...)
I am not religious but it is pretty important to remember atheism is a belief. A very decent portion of them ( I grew up a devout atheist, I have met many) hold to this beleif with almost a religious zeal. This is why the religious crowd says atheism is becoming some kind of pseudo religion. All who attack this play into arguing pointless semantics...
@Randy
"…Islamo-Christianty is the END OF THE WORLD! The END of all humanity! It is evil and must be stopped.
If you advocate it, you perpetuate that evil."
I was just going to comment on how surreal that comment was, I find many of the arguments of the 'four horsemen' and their followers very silly and strident, but thought the term 'atheist fundamentalist' a bit over-the-top and cliched. I thought the above quote must have been some kind of wry comment on that concept, and perhaps a bit self-satirical.
Apparently not.
@Epicurus who wrote:
"...@Joey, if atheists are religious, then each person here who DOESNT collect stamps has a non stamp collecting hobby..."
That is excellent! Is that your quote? It sounds like something you'd say...
Wonderful!
@peelingpaint
In case you haven't met me yet, let me just re-iterate...
...Islamo-Christianty is the END OF THE WORLD! The END of all humanity!
It is evil and must be stopped.
If you advocate it, you perpetuate that evil.
@Randy
No doubt religious groups *do* fund ID research-- so what? Can't you find an agenda everywhere? Wouldn't it be more to the point to talk about the arguments? When you don't, but just offer assertions, it isn't too convincing.
If you're trying to tell me that Stephen Meyer, William Dembski, and others have nothing to say, except that the bible is all we need, then well... forgeddaboutit!!
No, Peelingpaint, my comments are certainly NOT fantasy.
The actual Intelligent Design "Movement" as a political entity is funded and backed by the Baptist and Pentacostal churches.
That is clearly documented and recorded.
In fact, when I first heard of the "Intelligent Design" movement, I thought, "Ok, fine, maybe there is some intelligence guiding evolution... fine..." but, NO!
These guys want to destroy evolution, and replace it with the silly bible.
That I do NOT forgive!
I suggest you check out James Locklock's work on the Gaia Hypothesis, it's very interesting, and has some ideas about "Goal Oriented" evolution, not measurable or testable though...
Like I said... don't bring any god's into the mix, the Universe is actually pretty simple to understand...
@Randy
"ID talks of the bible exclusively..."
Regardless of the merits or otherwise of the bible, your statement is fantasy. ID proposes that there are mathematical features of structures or processes that result from intelligence-- or in other words purposeful, sentient activity-- and that these can be found in biological form.
I don't know if the maths is rigorous or not, but I do know that it was taken seriously enough by csicop, on the page- Darwin in mind: Intelligent Design meets Artificial Intelligence, for the authour to assert that Dembski's work constitutes a 'Darwin detector'. In other words, they believe that our human consciousness is the result of a natural selection of algorithms in our brains.
I give them credit for consistency, and their rare graciousness to a proponent of ID, and I'm also grateful for them for corroborating my suspicion that neo-darwinism *does* have deep metaphysical implications.
However, I've long thought that such views on consciousness are wrong, tho the argument is very deep, and I can't claim I completely understand it (tho I doubt all Dawkins and Dennett supporters do either), I think Penrose has made good arguments as to *why* they're wrong.
If Dennett-like views on AI does indeed imply the neo-darwinism, then, as far as I'm concerned, that's more reason to question whether natural selection of random mutations can *really* create novel form.
OK, too long a post, I know. I could say more, but for now, I'll just ask you--- if it's not scientific to detect markers of sentience in nature, what makes research into AI scientific, when the project is premised on the belief that the existence of sentience can be rigorously deduced (clearly, it can't be *directly* detected, and Id doesn't argue for that)?
Re your other points, 'intelligence' is all that ID concerns itself with-- whether that intelligence constitutes an intelligent entity or not is a separate metaphysical argument.
God may or may not exist-- whatever his/her/its 'existence' might mean-- and I think that the way that many of today's atheists' approach to the question is facile-- and he/she/it may or may not care about me-- but problem of evil arguments are problematic imo, and I've no reason to believe that materialists care all that much about me-- not that such considerations should be too much taken into account if we're being *scientific*!
@Lacey, who wrote:
"teacher and educator
Good science will always prevail over this nonsense. Put to the test which it has it fails every time, but alas the fools keep coming and waste scientists precious time to do the real time consuming real work..."
Yes. Indeed. And, frankly, teachers and educators should get paid as much as atheletes. I mean, they instruct our future generations, afterall.
I didn't go into academia because I knew I couldn't really make more than 60K US a year, (in America...).
The Great Asian Poeples have it right. Anyone who deems to be a teacher, there, gets all kinds of tax credits, free apartments, all kinds of perks...
That money attracts the best minds... for your children!
Anyways...
@peelingpaint
If, (IF!) there is some god-thing than it cares nothing at all for you. ID talks of the bible exclusively and that is fantasy.
Any other idea of god is not worth mentioning if we can't measure it.
Is all's I'm sayin'
@lacey
Really informative comment- not in any way an empty assertion. I've seen Miller's argument as to why Behe's case 'fails' and it's cobblers. He sneakily implied that the the fact that 40 proteins had to be removed from the BF, before another viable part was revealed, was actually *supportive* of the view that there was no reason not to question whether it could have come into being incrementally.
when I see tricks like that, and a lot of unsubstatiated scorn, it leads me to believe that the ID proponents are onto something.
Of course, that means I must be stupid and 'irrational'-- because being 'rational' is all about accepting opinions that everyone knows are 'rational', isn't it?
teacher and educator
Good science will always prevail over this nonsense. Put to the test which it has it fails every time, but alas the fools keep coming and waste scientists precious time to do the real time consuming real work.
teacher and educator
good science will always prevail over this crap. Put to the test it fails every time but alas the fools keep coming and waste scientists precious time to do the real work.
WOW! This movie is controvertial. Stop fighting people, neither evolutionists nor inteligent design people is going o change minds. Save your words for really important things.
BTW this movie is the crapier i've ever seen.
ok now i read the comments.. so funny )))
let me see.. I'm not gonna prove what was already proven, ie. darwinian theory of evolution, I assume he didn't waste his breath for nothing. For now I'm gonna pick on ID >:)
So intelligent design is a presumption (or a take) that the vast diversity of life on earth did not spring into being by a random chance, but occurred due to the interference of an intelligent designer. I assume that what they imply is not only the diversity phenomenon, but also the creation of life in the first place, since the _chance_ is not the way to approach this. This always strikes me as being a bit off, especially when they look at things at that level. No one argues that it was the god's brilliance to introduce chemical bonds into the picture and how it must be a god's creation. In fact, only biology seems to be taking a hit, where as it's physics that should be considered as a new candidate. However, physics proved to be a bit too complex, and chemistry a bit too tangible.. you get an electron and a proton and you get Hydrogen. Awesomeness.. but not the godly kinda awesomeness. lol
Booooring.. but look at the human eye.. wow, how precise. You get the drift. ;)
So what strikes me is that no one looks at the smallest particles like electron and go like "wow, dude they are so small and have properties ?? Praise the lord !" But what not many people realize is that our universe springing into being is quite an accomplishment, life by it self is a pretty minor accomplishment, to be honest.
But what am I arguing here ? Well if you want your Intelligent design taken seriously, you really gotta start looking deeper, much deeper, into the levels of a tremendously small proportions. The only possible designer would be lurking there, definitely not at the life level. ;)
(lol I'm feeling so evil now)
I love how people get all worked up at the evolution theory "well how about God", it's like asking "well how about John? How would John feel about it?" Well, John, ladies and gents would get over it. So would your very human God.
I also love when they give the chance value to the possibility of life emerging from the carbon protein chains, or say, well how is it possible that we emerged from monkeys ? If we didn't, we wouldn't ask :)
Ok, I'm being mean here. To be honest the answer does lay at the level of quantum mechanics. Think about it, those things do have properties, thus enabling them to interact, thus enabling then to create bonds, thus allowing them create complex bonds, thus allowing chemical reaction to happen and living organisms springing into being. What are the chances of that ? 1 to 1. You know why ? Because of this inherent potential of the subatomic particles to interact with one another. Now that's quite exciting ! From the M theory we assume that matter is just a result of fluctuating energy. Energy inherently is the cause to everything we see. And on the level of energy we know there's a potential to become matter and to interact ! Praise the lord. ;)
So let's sum it up. Even if there's a creator:
1) we still don't like ID.. becaaaause... intelligent creator would bother doing stuff on much simpler level.
2) it doesn't care about your sex life, health or financial problems.
3) it's not like you'd ever imagine it in your wildest dreams...
ps: the author of this piece of writing is not responsible for any upcoming fundy attacks on M theorists and quantum mechanics specialists.
my jaw.. somewhere in Australia
where did he find all these people ???
Hey Boah,
Would you be open to the idea of a creator that is in fact the entire fractal experience of The Universe? A creator that is made up of all the energy and matter, both known & measurable, AND also is made up of all the energy and matter that has NOT yet been recognized by the single-minded scientits?
Would you be open to the idea of a creator that occupies the largest and the tiniest nooks and crannies of space-time, including the currently unrecognized physical dimensions? A creator that is also all multidimensional Time: past-present-future-forward moving-backward moving-sideways moving Time?
Thats what god is. All this and more. god is NOT a human form. god does NOT desire special worship. god is just another one of the guys. god is everything. There are no Chosen People. Everyone is both special and not special. And evolution and intelligent design are occurring simultaneously. And there is no scientific argument to be settled on this subject.
This is a complete load of crap..
The only problem with ID and Creationism that science has is that there is no verifiable evidence....there are no repeatable experiments to prove there is a god...Science is constantly changing with new discoveries and scientists are more then happy to throw out an old idea if another more plausible, researched and evidenced idea comes along..
This is a terrible documentary very much skewed in one direction and that direction is to appeal to our emotions. There is no science here.
I'm still open to a creator whether be it aliens or god. The more comments I read however, its hard to argue for ID. The pro evolutionist rationality out crushes those of God or ID. I maybe read one person supporting ID that made a good statement. Because of this, I tend to always lean more with evolutionist.
I guess "god" wasn't on his side.
Beck,
As is typical for my posts, to whomever the message applies. BUT...
Hmm, looks like JoeyC's post from 3:40MST did NOT pass the censor's test, but MY posts did, and my post should have been the one to be censored. JoeyC's post had no "language", no censorious material.
Hey JoeyC, you posted @ 3:40MST. That means you did not "score" on your "date" with a real woman last night. dont hayt im jus sayin bro
Who are you talking to Dancing? O.o
Of course once you drive it off of the lot the responsibility is the owners and the product immediately is depreciated in value and starts to deteriorate. Planned obsolescence? It worked for Henry Ford and the other Detroit moguls. Cannot wait to see what devolution produces from a once perfected design, then left to the care of its owners.
Mankind: Intelligent by design, upgraded and modified to fit the times. What we need to do is read the owner/operators manual for proper maintenance, performance and life expectancy of the product. Like any good engineer, the product must be updated to fit the environment and functions that might not have been necessary when the prototype or first model rolled off the assembly line. So it is with man kind. Many different models to choose from. I choose female/blonde or female/redhead.
Well, now that JoeyC has left the ChatRoom for his online speed-dating War Of Witchcraft thang, that just leaves the rest of us mateless fugly Yodas left to circle jerk amongst ourselves...
HEY, WordSmith... make me laugh by looking up " Transpermia " and also "diphThong:...
Unfortunately, some males do not have the benefit of having had a father who was intelligent and forward-thinking enough to explain the difference between Consideration and Respect, or Faith and Religion, or Duty OR Honor.
You cannot get decent working definitions by watching a bunch of war movies, nor by listening to a society full of brain-washed but well-meaning veterans.
@Joey, if atheists are religious, then each person here who DOESNT collect stamps has a non stamp collecting hobby.
if some particular people who dont believe in god use faith in certain aspects of their life that doesnt mean they are RELIGIOUS.
by using the word as you please you are taking any actual meaning away...
of course quoting the dictionary to you wont make a difference because you dont seem to care what it says.
you could say some atheists you know are ignorant and sheepish, but religious would be ridiculous. unless you are using the term as a simile.
Joey,
Its a shame someone who seemed so intelligent had to resort to such childish antics.
Have a good evening Joey.
Beck,
The day I need YOU to quote the dictionary for me will be the day I drop my pants and do the "funky chicken" in Times Square. In other words, don't hold your breath.
And clearly, you are incapable of expanding your understanding beyond your own "religious" view of what "faith" and "religion" mean, which is precisely why I wrote earlier that atheists are among the MOST religious people in the world.
Bark hello to your wife for me.
@JoeyC
Obviously I need to quote the dictionary at you if you believe that faith automatically = religion.
I have faith that my brother will do the right thing, doesn't make me religious.
Religion does use faith, but faith is not religion.
If you need me to quote the dictionary for you again, I will be happy to do so.
and your not the only one with a female my friend. My wife will be due home soon as well.
Good day.
Guys,
This has been a gas, but I've got a date with an actual woman tonight, so I gotta split.
Keep up the good work!
Joey C.
I got a story, it ain't got no moral
Let the bad guy win every once in a while
I got a song, it ain't got no melody
I'ma gonna sing it to my friends
Will it go round in circles?
Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky?
Be a REAL man.
Be responsible for your mouth, your thoughts, your feelings, and your reactions.
Quit being a sissy.
Quit making excuses.
Quit using violence in lieu of a true solution.
Beck,
By the way, Beck, I do not appreciate your quoting the damned dictionary to me. I KNOW what religion means, and I know what it can ALSO mean.
Please, do not condescend. I have only spoken to you with utmost respect.
Beck,
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith.
If this doesn't describe many atheists I know, I'll eat my hat. There are MANY forms of religion my friend, such as, "My son, the doctor," or, the hatred of Jews, or of blacks, or anything that one holds and uses it to prevent one from looking at something contrary to it with an OPEN MIND.
One cannot hold a scientific view and examine religion. But that's exactly what many "scientists" attempt to do. It leads to nothing.
In some ways science and religion are polar opposites. The value of science, the thing that makes it so valualbe and important, and such a powerful tool, is that it relies specifically on experience, on testing and observing the results of testing--on reason and understanding, it requires PROOF.
What makes religion (or spirituality) the powerful tool it CAN be is that it REQUIRES "not proof," that is FAITH. Faith is ONLY valuable and powerful or has any meaning if it is NOT PROVEN. If one had proof of God it would be useless as one could not excercise one's faith. "Faith is the evidence not seen." Of course, this is what scientists hate, no?
That desire for empirical proof is what prevents the scientific atheist or whoever from experiencing and excercising faith. And that refusal to acknowledge the soundness of the scientific paradigm is what prevents many (the minority) of spiritual people from experiencing the joys of the sciences.
Romulus,
"I hope you do realize that many, perhaps most of the atheists were at some point in their lives religious."
No, I don't realize that. I don't realize that at all and no one can determine that. One may be raised in a "religious community" without having an iota of religious belief. I see it all the time.
No, Romulus, I don't accept that at all.
Beck
i would say yes too, send to jail every bad person on earth, if that was giving results, but is not.
Ah yes, becuase allowing everyone to steal, kill, rape etc is a fantastic idea.
Well, while your telling the guy who's killing you its a bad idea, I'll be trying to prohibit certain actions.
i think prohibition and violence are just being counter-productive. Lets think and educate
@JoeyC
Atheism and Science are hardly religion. From - Merriam Webster --
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back — more at rely
Date: 13th century
1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
Atheism and Science both reject just about every part of that definition. They reject supernatural answers (main definition and set 1). There are no set in stone beliefs or practices, anything in Science if disproven gets removed; religion hardly allows that to happen. It doesn't meet any of the definitions of number 3. And there is no Faith in science, its either proven or not.
Science is the search of fact, Religion is the belief in a story. They are no where close to the same thing.
Also, the thought that you believe that I am missing out on an extraordinary experience is how I feel about all religious people. The real world is far more marvelous then anything written in the religious texts. People who believe in nonsense are the ones blocking out the true greatness of the world around them.
And for me, I had religious ties as a child actually. I was a deep christian until I actually sat down and read the Bible front to back and decided I didn't really care for all the rape, slavery etc. I studied many other religions, Buddhism, Judaism etc. None of them answer questions without "faith" which is nothing more than letting someone else do the work for you.
I prefer to take my own destiny, hold my own morals and beliefs for my own reasons. Without fear of the Santa Claus not giving me gifts because I wasn't good. I grew out of the religious beliefs the same way I grew out of belief in the other controlling characters of my Youth.
Also, for 99% of the religious world, you only believe what you believe because of where you life, and what your parents believe. Kinda odd how people are OK with something being true based on geography.
Is the ban on drugs working, is the prison system in the united states reducing the criminality?. Wouldnt it be better to educate rather than prohibit?
JoeyC, I hope you do realize that many, perhaps most of the atheists were at some point in their lives religious. You cannot say that they are not capable of judging religion.
Sorry, typo. The first sentence should read:
"You do have to admit that it’s hard to argue that a gun’s primary objective is NOT to kill."
@jtl: You do have to admit that it's hard to argue that a gun's primary objective is to kill. Be it animals (we have trained and skilled hunters for for animal-population-control, here in Germany) or humans...
Sure, a knife CAN kill, but it's primary use is to cut food.
A gun can kill... and... well, that's pretty much it. It has no other practical use, therefore we should regulate or ban them. If you want to shoot stuff? Get an airsoft gun. Simple as that.
Beck,
Honestly, science can be just as much of a crutch. As a deeply religious (or at least, trying to be) person I see the hypocrisy of other religious people around me all the time. The fault is NOT the religion. It is a fault that lies within them, a flaw, as we are all flawed.
Now, my problem with atheists, is that they are JUST AS RELIGIOUS as religious folks. What do they worship? Their own intellect, their own ability to understand and think and "KNOW" much of which they cannot know at all.
To judge religion and the spiritual, you must experience it first and that means letting go of your own understanding of reality, of your own ability to understand. No easy task, admittedly. Most atheists I know are too "religious" to give that a real try. It means letting go of their most "sacred" tenets.
And in my opinion, they are missing out on an extraordinary experience: and experience of a reality beyond the five senses, a TRUTH beyond words, beyond, even, understanding. It is the substance of the epiphany.
Guns are fine for non violence, and are used all over the US for hunting. I have gone hunting a few times, I don't have much taste for killing animals myself but have done it for food a few times.
I have no direct issue with guns, but it still is a weapon, and anything that's designed to kill people is something we can do without. The human race is still evolving, soon we will be able to get our food and nutrients from non-animal sources and at that point, guns are pointless.
Your not very good at arguing your point JTL, in fact I don't know what your point is. Maybe I'm just not good at seeing your point. /shrug
And with the guns issue too. I have heard about a tribe in the middle east which buy guns simply to shoot into the air, their aim is not to kill people, they do it for fun. Would you tell them that they can not enjoy themselves that way because is baaaaaaaaad, guns are bad and they should be repented for doing that?
Hardy
I have a hard time arguing that. So.. I wont. Nice job :)
Again that's ridiculous. The Andromeda galaxy is heading our way and will eventually obliterate the entire Milky way, sounds like a problem from an object that we didn't make to me.
Objects cause problems all the time that have little to no control over. And just because we made an object, and that object is allowing us to cause trouble doesn't mean we shouldn't DO something about said object.
If someone makes a bomb, and sets the bomb on the floor of my home with my family, that person made a problem out of the object. yes I could go beat up the person but that hardly solves the problem. Objects man made or not, are problems in their own right and need to be solved.
Sorry to throw in a word from myself, but:
No single follower of a religion is bad. At least not worse than other human beings, whatever their beliefs may be.
But the institution of religion is bad - it creates hate between people that could otherwise live side by side in peace, even though their views may differ.
Also, it demands money from the poorest to support the already rich. A typical trait of many institutions, if you ask me.
And lastly, it prevents knowledge, because the religious institutions demand ignorance of other views.
Two (undefined) theists may argue intellectually about the nature of 'the devine', but be friends on a personal level. A muslim and a jew will always see each other as 'going to hell' and as 'wrongbelievers' and will, with great probability, not become friends.
So, in essence, it's not about 'belief' per se - it's the defining institution that is bad.
Again, an object cant be a problem on its own, we make problems out of objects
@JoeyC and JTL1985
I think you hit the nail on the head with a fairly on topic comment and goes back to all my posts, Religion is not Science and should never be taught as such.
I agree that religion is misused, and I can see the "appeal" of religion. But honestly, all the good things religion does is more or less a crutch and a lie. If your only good because you fear what god will do to you, your goodness is almost worthless. If you are only happy because of a story in a book of lies, why is that preferable to the truth?
The truth is difficult to hear sometimes, but I believe that using religion as a crutch to hold you up is paramount to lying to yourself. I know churches go out and help people, offer food, build houses etc, but so do atheists and usually for better reasons. There is a local atheist group here in San Diego that do the same things churches do, without all the self delusion.
joey c
I agree absolutely with you
Beck,
I know what you mean, but I don't see it as "religion," I see it as political opportunists USING religion to control their constituents.
Truly religious folks, like so many Catholic Priests and Clergy, have nothing but support and respect for the proclamations of science. Some of the world's greatest scientists were in fact men of the cloth, some it's greatest humanists were as well.
It is more those in the "religious right," those who want to ban books, outlaw homosexuality, etc, who are attempting to keep their flocks frightened, angry and stupid--always easier to control them that way.
And yes, if Einstein saw that, he would, as any person of intelligence, religious or not, puke.
Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water.
Religion is NOT the enemy of science. They don't even belong in the same discussion.
Beck
So would you say that the problem is what we are doing with religion now, rather than simply mention that religion is the problem? I think that religion es being used as a mobile for comitting atrocities, thats clear, nontherless it can be used for good things aswell. For instance, the indegenous people around the world ar very religious and they dont do any harm to themselves or nature, well at least some of them. The same case with science: it can be used for creating things or for destroying things too
I think if Einstein saw what religion was doing to science these days, he would say it himself.
And can you prove religion is always bad, i heard that Eistein was a religios person, did that do any harm to him or society, would you tell him if he was alive that his believes were absolutely negative for life?
@JTL1985
We do prohibit knives to be used as a weapon. We prohibit a lot of things to be used as weapons. As Joey said earlier however, if you really want to kill someone you could use anything, a thick rolled up newspaper could do the job.
We don't prohibit knives because they have some good factor given to them, IE cooking etc. Gun's on the other hand have only one purpose, death and should be absolutely banned. Most of the other industrialized countries have banned them. America hasn't, why? Stupidity in my opinion.
My respect isn't just handed out, every one I meet and talk has neither my respect nor my disrespect. Your first comment was ridiculous, and thus you shifted to disrespect.
And your English is fine, I understand you well enough to argue with you :)
Beck,
"They were evil, greedy and controlling bastards that's a fact, they just happen to also be atheists."
Bingo! That they were! As were the Bishops and Knights and Vassals who went off to conquer the Middle East during the Crusades and returned with untold wealth -- as were the Princes and Dukes who during the 30 years War often attacked their own nations--as was United Fruit with the help of the C.I.A. created phony wars in Honduras in the name of "Freedom." Ditto in Iran with Mosadech. And other places.
And last but not least, Geoge W. -- who in the name of fighting terrorism and "establishing Democracy," has murdered millions (mostly civilians) in two phony wars based entirely on lies.
I may say "I'm killing you because you don't believe in God the same way I do." That doesn't make it true. It's just so convenient.
War has often been fought in the name of Atheism. One of Mao's avowed targets were the Monk's and religious orders whom he hated as he considered them enemies of the truth (atheism). Ditto Stalin, who tried to eliminate all forms of worship and spirituality. That's war in the name of atheism in my book.
Sorry about my english
By the way, Im not religious, if that is the reason because you are being rude
@Beck
you didnt answer the cuestion, why dont we prohibit knives?.
PS: its a shame that you dont respect people, i think we should respect even our enemies
@JTL1985
I never claimed to respect you.
I don't agree that violence is never the answer, in fact its quite often the only answer. I think the statement should be "religion is never the answer". Fits better in the non-flat, non-geocentric modern world.
@ Beck.
So if you are saying that religion is the same as knife, why dont we prohibit knives from being sold?... we colud save thousands of lives. Lets sell knives only to cooks. And by the way... thanks for calling me ridiculous, that was very respectful of you.
PS: violence is never the answer
@JoeyC
I agree that killing is old and primal, animals do it, people do it everyone does it. Alright that's a given. However, not until man made weapons, and religion was killing done for the sake of killing. In ancient times killing was done for land and security, once those were had the killing stopped. Now a days killing is done in mass and without any other reason then "they don't believe what I do". Now, I am not fool enough not to realize that a lot of the religious wars and killings had land etc in mind as well and its fair enough to say religion was used as a cover for those goals.
As for your second disagreement, I heavily disagree. While Stalin was assuredly Atheist, Hitler may or may not of been depending on what you believe. However, in either case neither of these people killed in the name of Atheism. No war or mass killing in the history of time has ever been done in the name of Atheism. Just because they were Atheists doesn't mean anything. They were evil, greedy and controlling bastards that's a fact, they just happen to also be atheists.
Its unfair to pick a random fact about someone and say that was the cause when there is no proof in that. Its like me saying Hitler only killed people because he had a mustache.
And honestly, I agree with your last point, if I lived there I would probably own a gun as well.
@ Joey C
Roger Moore's 'Bowling for Columbine' - that's one film I'd pay money to see (raises one eyebrow).
Beck,
Handing me a gun would not make it easier. That's a myth. A poisoned mushroom is far easier. And not nearly as noisy! A gun leaves much more evidence, more potential witnesses, and a big ugly mess.
Anyway, your thoughts are well argued and thought out.
However, I must respectfully disagree with you on two points. Killing, murder, whatever you want to call it, is as old as humanity. This is a sad fact. The weapons (nuclear aside) are irrelevant in my opinion, as proven by Roger Moore in his film, "Bowling for Columbine," where he (inadvertantly) makes the point that Canada has far more guns per capita than America but Americans kill with guns far more often.
It ain't the guns.
My second disagreement with you is a more complex one which I can't go into here in all its depth. Simply put, religion has been used as a excuse to kill. It is the hypocritical use of religion as a means of profit or ground aquisition. It has rarely been about "defending the faith" although this is what they might have shouted.
Let us recall that the greatest mass murderers of the 20th century were avowed atheists: Mao, Hitler and Stalin.
My personal study of religion and history leads me to hold that the church created and saved Western Civilization, although at times severely flawed, no doubt.
I don't mean to sound like some gun nut--I don't own a gun (in NYC it's illegal anyway) but I'll tell you, if I owned a home in the suburbs and had children, damn, I'd really think about it.
PS - I know about Occam's razor. That was just a little humor I was attempting!
@JoeyC
I think its a play on the spelling of Occam's razor which in essence means, the simplest answer is usually the correct one. IE if you hear a the clopping of hooves down the street in the middle of a city, you better off assuming is a horse than a Oryx Antelope from the Serengeti.
If that's not what his name means, then I have no idea and you can ignore me! :)
As for my statement, Weapons make the killing of people easier on the person whos going to do it. How many killings with guns have been regretted afterward? How much easier is it now a days to send kids out to war with equipment that shows the enemy as nothing more then a blip.
Back to my statement tho, If a person is set out to kill you, they will indeed use whatever is available to do the job. However, NOTHING like religion makes a good person do bad things. Religion is the supreme king of making enemies nothing more than animals. And the biggest difference between the weapon of a gun or knife and religion is that with religion, it suddenly becomes "OK" and "righteous".
And just because you can kill me with anything at hand, doesn't mean I should make it easier by handing you a gun.
--LOUD SIGH--
HERE WE GO , AGAIN...
Achem's Razor? I'm not familiar with that story. Is it like Achim's Razor? Or Achmed's Razor?
Please advise.
Thank you.
Beck,
Don't apologize for being blunt. We can take it!
However, if I wanted to kill you I would use whatever was handy, be it a gun or a knife or a rope or an oyster fork. As we saw in Godfather Part III you can kill with a pair of eyeglasses. So, eyeglasses don't kill people. People kill people.
Whether it's a spear or a sling and stone, a poisoned mushroom, or a colleseum filled with hungry lions, none of them would kill without the intent, direction, and purposeful use by a human.
Anything else is a way to avoid personal responsibility.
"It was the gun (fork, stone, ice-pick)! Not me! Put the gun(fork, stone, ice-pick) in prison!"
Pretty silly, eh?
@JTL1985
One of the more ridiculous statements made in this forum. That's the same as "Guns don't kill people, people kill people".
I like to see you stab me without your knife, or shoot me with out your gun. Same applies here, only religion can make good people do terrible things. I do mean MAKE, the nonsensical brainwashing is the same as control.
A weapon is a weapon, Religion is the same as a knife, a gun, a nuke or anything else. It's only reason for existence is violence and control. All the "nice" stuff wrapped up in it is just a way to control the weak willed.
I would apologize for being so blunt, but I wouldn't mean it.
Religion cant be a problem because its an object. Like a knife: you may use for slicing bananas or slicing people. Is the knife the problem?...No, what we do with is.
@Yolanda
Oy...
Your logic is heavily flawed here. Intelligent design is out to discredit evolution, this "documentary" is supporting Intelligent design, thus its out to discredit evolution.
The rest of your entire statement requires Intelligent design to BE SCIENCE, which it is not. The country is doing exactly what it supposed to be doing, asking for proof before teaching. There needs to be something scientific about it for it to be science. Thus it needs to be testable. You are more than welcome to teach your kids