Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
Ben Stein shows us a world where Academia's freedom of inquiry might not be so free. This should be a concern for anyone and everyone. This undermines the concept that we will be teaching facts and truth in our universities. However, if you watch how this documentary is formatted you will find that this documentary is overly biased, delving into spectrums of propaganda! Let me explain. Stein sets about proving his premise by interviewing scientists that have been rejected by the establishment. Scientists who have allegedly had their lives ruined because of their belief in something called "Intelligent Design." Science isn't here to persecute people's beliefs and this concept would probably outrage anyone... that is until you realize the lengths he goes to paint science as the root of this evil.
So, we have Stein interviewing scientists that have had their qualifications ruined by the establishment, wouldn't you think Stein should interview people working in the scientific community at the time about this issue? If this persecution of dissidents was happening I would think he'd go and talk to people still working in the field and cite his examples for scrutiny. This never happens. Either Stein is a just a terrible host for a documentary and should stick to the game shows, or he has an agenda. Stein does interview PZ Myers, Michael Ruse, Eugenie Scott, and the mighty Richard Dawkins for his grand finale, but he never once asks them about the people that were fired or denied tenure. He only sticks to questions concerning how life began.
He doesn't even really talk to them about why Intelligent Design is rejected by the scientific community versus why evolution is taught. He never asks these questions. Michael Ruse, who isn't even credited during his interview (more sloppy documentary work), proposes a possible life beginning scenario involving crystals. This results in Stein asking him again how it's possible... after Ruse just told him and results in what can be interpreted as a rude response from Ruse. This style of filming to show scientists as unwilling to entertain the idea of Intelligent Design pushes the viewer to see science as intolerable.
Seems as though no one on this forum knows how life began. Fine. OK, then how did we get here via the process of evolving? Sorry if that question is too threatening or challenging, just wondering since there seem to be some mighty smart people on this forum.
I reviewed a lot of the comments about this film and it seems as if many say we "got here" by "evolution". This seems to me to be an incomplete or misleading answer since the commenters (at least those defending evolution) don't seem to really know how we "got here". Not to mention the shrillness of the evolution defenders makes me question their confidence. Maybe it's partly a job security thing or a passion for the theory or a hatred of Christian people or all the above.
Wow, that's a load of info to digest. Seems like there is no agreement on the question so I see why you "do not know". Some say extraterrestial. As for Miller/Urey, I found the following on the Duke University site: "There has been a recent wave of skepticism concerning Miller's
experiment because it is now believed that the early earth's atmosphere
did not contain predominantly reductant molecules. Another objection is
that this experiment required a tremendous amount of energy. While it
is believed lightning storms were extremely common on the primitive
Earth, they were not continuous as the Miller/Urey experiment portrayed."
Came upon this site and read some of the comments about this film, have not seen it. Wondering...how did a living being come from a non living substance? Just asking, so spare me the intolerance, personal attacks and ridicule that robertallen and the mod dude seem to be fond of.
Intelligent design does not mean that the study of observable reality is rejected. Take for example The Stretch Factor by Dr. Gerald Schroeder which harmonizes billions of years for the age of the universe with 6 days of creation. The key in this is hermeneutics, i.e. day in Hebrew is yom. Yom can be a literal day or an age (some length of time). Therefore, 6 ages of billions of years. Religion has a history of suppressing science in the west but that does not mean the scientists themselves saw the laws of the natural world as a rejection of God. Now there are religious people and organizations who are trying to right the historical wrong of suppression by becoming more open to what science has to offer. The irony is that now they are the ones who are being suppressed and rejected because of their belief in a designer. A little one sided it seems.
Yes, even very prominent scientists have been fired for believing in the Creator's (intelligent) design. I know personally of just one in particular who in fact for all his life taught evolution in universities etc, but who began to open his mind because of the impossibilities he had turned a blind eye to until he could do this no more! He also opened his mind to the possibility of the existence of God and began searching for Him. He became a Protestant Christian and now preaches and teaches Truth (and there is only ONE Truth and security regarding where we come from, who we are and where we are headed). That meant a great deal of humbling of pride, stripping of all he had been wrongly taught and believed, and now he is a very happy man indeed. God has restored all he lost in this process, to boot. Praise the Lord.
A few thoughts regarding this documentary.
Is it biased? yes, as are all documentaries, on some level. The real question is did the point get through? After reading some of the blogs, the answer is obviously no.
Did people get fired for believing in intelligent design? I have no doubt that the answer is likely yes, (only those involved really know the truth) but the only ones that would be deserving of it, are those who are trying to bring faith into a classroom of science. (they were not all teachers)
One thing this documentary does very well is to remind people that nothing, not even science can give an explanation to the origin of life itself. This doesn't mean by default the answer is god, but serves to bring those who live by absolute proof back to reality, (if they are paying attention) reminding them that science will never be able to answer everything. With that said, any man who can get Richard Dawkins to admit that he isn't 100% athiest, should not be dismissed so easily.
Personally, I found the documentary entertaining, and not so outlandish as the explanation that accompanied it would have us believe. Since this subject matter is so devisive to begin with, hard liners from either side of the equation will not be swayed from their own entrenched beliefs.(when in doubt, run home to momma!) The most important thing that Ben Stein did not address, (it doesn't serve his point) can be found in a documentary called 'intelligent design on trial'. (regarding genetics) It is an excellent documentary; look it up, and check it out. It is well worth the watch!
15:21 - This is the very first large mistake that Mr. Stein makes, among others. Michael Shermer wasn't factually "wrong", as he puts it. Ben Stein heard one side of the three or four stories, proving that he went into this with an already incredibly biased opinion. When Shermer said "there had to have been something else going on", he meant exactly that. In other words, "Mr. Stein, you've clearly only heard, and have been willing to hear, one side of every story, and it's the proponents of intelligent design's story that you're hearing, so of course due to hurt feelings, anger, and contempt over losing their jobs, they're only going to tell you enough to make it out that they did absolutely nothing but mention the two words. They clearly did more than that, or else they wouldn't have lost their jobs." Excellent editing job, but again, Stein just went at this with an already biased opinion on the side of "intelligent design", so he edited it like a Michael Moore film to paint the exact picture that he wanted to paint.
i forced myself to watch the whole thing -- it's the kind of production one might expect in an elementary school setting. no actual science, only opinions. no proof of controversy, just belief. why do people laugh at creationists? to get to the other side.
I am a high school teacher and have found many times that some of my most academically gifted students lack in the area of common sense. Without commons sense, many times it's difficult to see the obvious.
1. Common sense tells me that no human being was available at the beginning to observe how the universe and all its components came into being. Therefore, there is no man nor textbook that can dogmatically verify how it all came into being.
2. Common sense tells me that order cannot come from disorder.
3. Common sense tells me that if it all began with a piece of matter, that piece of matter didn't place itself in the abyss and then decide what its purpose was.
4. Common sense tells me that if it happened billions of years ago, why does it not continually happen again and again?
5. Common sense tells me that I have a mind that I can think with. Neither a piece of matter nor an explosion could have given me that ability.
6. Common sense tells me that if we did evolve, when and why did we stop? Why are humans digressing in their actions and in their emotions rather than progressing?
7. Common sense tells me that I have 2 choices: either to believe that an Intelligent Being (God), someone much smarter than I, created all there is or believe that it all happened by accident.
Since no one was there to observe the beginning, I choose to believe the one that actually makes more sense. I choose to believe God created all. To believe otherwise is to believe all there is is one big accident; therefore, so am I. What a depressing way to live: having no purpose.
Great, what I thought was an open-minded and free community of people, is just as shallow and closed-minded as the rest of the world. Truth hurts, but what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
It's funny, if you question accepted scientific theories, like evolution, it really is kind of like going before a firing squad. I've never seen anything quite like the rage of some of these evolutionists ...oh, wait, yes, I have... in the Pakistan and Israel conflict. Hmmm. Is evolution the new religion?
By the way, on a side note, I too accept the evolution theory as one possibility for how we came to exist. I think there are a few other viable ones too...like (please don't hurt me) intelligent design and (yes, I'm gonna go there) creatures from the sky messing with our DNA.
All of these theories have issues, I'll grant you, but what else have we got?
In light of the brutal history of persecution perpetrated against scholars and scientists by the religious establishment going back thousands of years, I honestly have no sympathy for bible thumpers getting drummed out of the scientific community. I see it as understandable at worst, and a step in the right direction at best.
Thank you Robertallen1, I do have to admit that this change has been a long time coming. This documentary was just the final nail in the coffin.
I was very excited when I came across this Documentary. I thought, awesome, finally mainstream media is going to give us an honest exploration of truth and wisdom. What I discovered though shook me to my core and down to the very foundations of my faith.
After watching, I could not shake the feeling that something didn't seem right. Seeing the contradictions and down right lies propagated by Ben Steins I had to do some research on his supposed facts. My discoveries not only lead me to the fact that this WHOLE documentary is complete propaganda but that even my own faith and belief in a Christian world view is wrong. Christians, PLEASE, for the love of God, if we want to make a case for truth we need to use truth to make that case.
You can't disprove evolution by disproving Darwinism. There were obviously problems with Darwinism because of how outdated it was, scientists now have better ideas of how evolution works, some supporting Darwinism, some not so much. Nobody in this film directly stated that they were fired/expelled for the reason of their beliefs, and like the skeptic had said, there was probably more going on. What's going on with these individual cases could be nothing more but the known fallacy of causal inference. But to be honest if someone came to work at an auto-body center claiming that a horse and buggy is faster than a car, I don't know how long they would be able to keep their job.
this review is bull*hit. the reviewers are atheists and evolutionists reviewing a creationist film, so get a life and get some creationist reviewers, so this isn't so biased
This is, hands down, the worst 'documentary' I've ever seen.
This documentary is well done. It is thorough, and as a person who dared question the physics of auto-generation of life, I can attest that narrow minded evolutionary bigots do not tolerate even intelligent counterpoints.
Not science. Creationism repackaged. Part of the real push against freedom by wanting religion in schools. Same people wouldn't agree to Hindu or Muslim teachings.
Give me the empirical proof that a painting had a painter. Something beyond the obviousness of its self evident proof. Something happened to create this universe. I like to back my religion up with science, otherwise it's merely superstition.
It is meaningless we can only see so far into the universe and every time were able to see further we see more the odds and possibilities are infinite for life to happen we have way more stars and solar systems then we do casinos and games so why is this so hard to understand. Because we live on a finite world but seriously we should change the word scientific theory to scientific fact so this who only know simple English can understand what we're talking about. It's appalling to me that real scientists who understand this principle could ever say intelligent design is even a possibility anymore or for that matter even call themselves scientists. Shame on you shame on you
Intelligent design is just repackaged creationism but if something "had to create us" what created it and what created that creator and so on and so forth. The only way to explain how it happened is through evolution through time. We already see it has happened with the wolf being domesticated into various dog breeds large and small they have the same DNA. Another thing is everything alive today share a lot of the same genes. There's a nova special on where did we come from we're science has created 2 of the building blocks of RNA just by precipitation and light and although they havnt figured out How the other to molecules came to be its only a matter of time now till they get the rest of the recipe. Chemistry did create all life on earth and we've been evolving since then. Lets say that a slot machine has a one in a million chance for a jackpot it's perfectly possible to hit the jackpot on the millionth try but people also can hit it on the first try. This is the principle of evolution while certainly it could have taken all the try's necessary to "hit the jackpot" the chance of chance happens to be much different with it landing many time before the required try's and once it happens once then life does what it does it reproduces and mutates. Intelligent design is rubbish and anyone who would try to undermine scientific progress by pursuing this is rubbish and should have been fired. Science must come to a conclusion and uh I don't know it must be intelligent design is not acceptable. In science a hypothesis is formed and tested until it teaches the status of scientific "theory". I use quotation marks because people who don't follow science thier whole life's or don't understand it or don't care or even worse have followed religion thier whole life think that theory means a guess. And that is not what scientific theory is. In science theory means fact so we need to change the word I think to simply scientific fact so even idiots can understand that it's the real truth. Germ theory isn't just a guess " uh well I think there's small thing inside my body that are killing me" no germ theory is germ fact there really are small microbes viruses and bacteria everywhere. And we don't say of that's just a theory now do we. Come on people I know it's great to believe that this life is not the only life ill live but the fact is it is my only life and I don't feel like wasting it away for hope that I'll "transcend" my human for that's just plain old stupidity and wanton hope.
This movie is total CRAP!!! Ben Stein claims intelligent design is motivated by science, rather than religion, but it's the same kind of science as "I don't understand how cars work! God must have made them." In other words, ID has nothing to do with science. And for Stein to say that Darwinism contributed to the holocaust is a blatant lie! I've read a lot of the history of world war 2, and there are many references from the Nazis to "providence," and to Hitler and God. The standard issue German army belt buckle said "Gott Mitt Uns," (God is with us). Every German courtroom, throughout WW2 had a crucifix on the wall. I read one biography of Hitler which said that Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, if he had lived in the time of Hitler, would have hailed Hitler as the second coming. Of course, this is nothing new. From the political right we constantly see lies and ignorance.
There isnt a single theory about the creation of the universe that holds up without inventing systems such as "Dark Matter" et. al. Why cant people just believe that we dont possess the so called intelligence to work out the theories of the universe from mathmatical modals.. We cant predict the weather for tomorrow, thats just atmospherics in our own area, never mind trying to predict what collided with what billions of years ago..
Its a moot point.
Is Darwinism right I have no idea, Is ID right, I have no idea, but for ID to be right then those intelligent beings must have come from somewhere. Or were they designed, if so by who.
Which came first, the chicken or the egg..
Darwin..Egg
ID..Chicken
Wow! The giant, pulsating egos on the web are impressive, I gotta tell ya! As for me, I’m nowhere near smart enough to work out the maths that the heavens and the earth came about by random chance. Epicurus says even money? Hmmm I’m glad he’s not my bookie ;) But Roger Penrose, an Oxford physicist, (that’s pretty smart) said that even a single parameter, the original "phase-space volume," required such precise fine-tuning that it can only be expressed by the mathematical demand of an accuracy of one part in 10 to the power of 123. And just to write this number down in full would take more zeros than the number of elementary particles in the entire universe. Also, Scientific American published an article saying that "merely to create a bacterium would require more time than the universe might ever see if chance combinations of its molecules were the only driving force" (The title of the article was "Life: Origin and Evolution," in Scientific American Special Publication, 1979). It seems like at least some smart people doubt the random chance theory. And in my simple mind if it’s not random chance then it must be design and that’s where I stand ?
What I can’t quite figure out is why people as intelligent and superior to “dumb and dishonest” religees ( ha ha) like me, seem so angry. This really intrigues me. I mean, they’ve got it all figured out. They’re obviously genii, why waste time getting all fired up and trying to impress simpletons like me with their brilliance? I’m already impressed beyond belief. I wish they would just leave me to use what my humble life has taught me to believe are my own God given senses and instincts to try and figure out what path is best for me to follow in life. I wonder why they don’t go and play golf or have fun or something. It’s almost like they’re obsessed with their message like……like…….extremist fundies (?)
@dtlumley The scientific community does not like any thing that challenges their beliefs. They are to invested in them and don't want to submit to a God that challenges their moral beliefs.
1h 30m 40s mark:-
"....It could be that at some earlier time somewhere in the universe a civilisation evolved, by probably some kind of Darwinian means, to a very high level of technology and designed a form of life that they seeded onto perhaps this planet...." - The mighty Richard Dawkins.
That settles it then.
A very fine documentary. Some very important and relevant questions were brought out that we would benefit from considering.
"wouldn’t you think Stein should interview people working in the scientific community at the time about this issue? If this persecution of dissidents was happening I would think he’d go and talk to people still working in the field and cite his examples for scrutiny. This never happens."
Somewhere between 14:45 to 15:30 mins in the documentary Stein DID interview scientists with dissenting views who were currently working- all were disguised for fear of losing their jobs...
Good documentary, didn't push the Gospel of Christ and have and extremely anti-theist view. I would say this greatly devalued Dawkins credit and esteem for me, as he quoted in the movie, he [Dawkins] REFUSES to acknowledge any Being or Deity responsible for the universe and Humanity yet is a proponent of the possibility of an advanced race of being who created man and we might be able to find tracks from their work in DNA, yet they were bound by darwinianism laws and naturally even the creators of man ultimately followed the same darwinian evolutionary laws and principles as the rest of the universe...Do you see Dawkins dilemma here? He claims we cannot refute darwinian evolution so to do and accept a designer would mean a highly advanced civilization must have done so ultimately never answering the question of where did Life and all existence come from...a question that takes the one thing Dawkins and the like lack, Faith. Faith is the only explanation that before everything, the amino acids, the inorganic material, the galaxies and stars, it was a Being that brought everything about. Dawkins doesnt give the possibility of such a means of existence an iota of credibility instead proposes an even more far-fetched idea of other races of beings creating man, or as his fellow scientists, crystals were the cause, thus instead of choosing the most simple answer, he chooses to construct even more elaborate and preposterous ideas that require more faith than accepting the principles of Intelligent Design. As one of mankind's greatest scientist of all time, adamant believer in God and Intelligent Design, Christian, Scientists, Mathematician quotes: Truth is ever to be found in simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things.It is the perfection of God's works that they are all done with the greatest simplicity. He is the God of order and not of confusion
"The most beautiful system of the Sun, Planets and Comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent being. All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God."
-Isaac Newton
great documentary!
"If this persecution of dissidents was happening I would think he would go and talk to people still working in the field and cite his examples for scrutiny? This never happens."
Really? Because you expect what... an objective, unbiased answer from people who want to lose their jobs, tenure and grants as well????
This takes me back to the measurement problem in quantum mechanics
I would like to approach this discussion from a different angle to hopefully keep from going round and round...
It has been established that science cannot prove or disprove the existence of an IDer, therefore, an atheist scientist and a religious scientist can come to the table of science with their opposing metaphysics and do credible and good science.
The differences between the two scientists is their interpretation of the "big picture." The atheist scientist will say, "Isn't the universe amazing and complex?" On the other hand, the religious scientist will say, "Isn't God/Allah/etc. amazing and complex?" when looking at the same result. The difference isn't in the result of the scientific research itself but in the origination/originator of the result's mode of operation.
The argument then lies in the fact that the atheist is allowed and encouraged to say "above statement" but the religious scientist is not allowed to say "above statement"
The question then is why is it acceptable to come to the table of science with the assumption that an IDer does not exist but unacceptable to do so under the assumption that one does exist, even though neither is proven?
Would it be acceptable if the religious scientist states in his work, "I believe that (insert diety) has designed X to behave Y. This does not take away from the fact that X's behavioral process is Y correct? The researcher just comes the same scientific conclusion with a personal metaphysical presupposition. An atheist can approach the same finding that X's behavioral process is Y by stating "I believe that (insert origin theory) has caused X to behave Y"
Why is one presupposition allowed, while the other is not?
Over The Edge...it's a bit unfair to expect me to know how Scientists should go about testing the possibility of an original creator because I'm not a scientist. It's as unfair as expecting me to be able to advise Scientists on how to find the cause for Action-At-A-Distance. Such "spooky" behavior of sub atomic particles is beyond the comprehension of scientists let alone me to advise them on it. But I do have confidence that scientists will figure out this spooky phenomenon we call Action-At-A-Distance. And I am confident that scientists will figure out this idea of an original creator as well...if they honestly try.
That said, I find it reasonable to use the concept of intelligent designer "fingerprints" as one possible method for examining the idea of an original creator (hear me out on this). I'm NOT talking about this six day creation stuff though. Just honest scientists using the hypothesis that if there is an original creator then it's fair to reason that the original creator was intelligent (testing an hypothesis that "a creator is intelligent" is possible) and that the intelligence of the creator could be manifested in the artistry of our universe (testing an hypothesis that "a creator leaves evidence of their intelligence in what they create" is possible) and that finding this intelligence manifested in the artistry of our universe is possible evidence of a creator of our universe (because applying the methods for "how to find evidence of a creators intelligence manifested in the artistry of a test subject creators creation" to our universe is possible).
I suspect that with the context of an original creator our universe will show the observer what the observer sets out to find. Scientific research using Methodological Naturalism has set out to find that there are natural causes for nature and that is what it has found out (there are natural causes for nature). It hasn't really looked for an original creator to rightfully claim that there is none. But now that we have established that there are natural causes for nature we can safely look for evidence of an original creator and not worry that nature doesn't have natural causes. And I suspect we will find that there IS evidence of an original creator and that there IS still natural causes for nature. We could even end up seeing Science proving that the legendary "god" being of religious history does not exist and yet at the same time proving that an original creator "god" being does exist...leaving us feeling the similar sensation one gets after examining Action-At-A-Distance with our limited under-standing it.
Currently we've barely scratched the surface on the topic that there isn't an original creator (we're just claiming since we found what we were looking for...natural causes for nature...there can't be ANY other causes...and that is not good science and borderlines arrogance). But who knows, perhaps by honestly looking for evidence of an original creator, using agreed upon scientific methods, science might find that there really just is no original creator AND can without controversy claim "And our research into the possibility of an original creator proves it." This would seal the deal for all Deism/Theism claims that go against the Atheist claims of Methodological Naturalism.
And if it goes the other way and Science finds methods that prove that there is an original creator "god" being then it wouldn't be hard to sort out the details of creation stories and "spooky" medicine. Because we could simply adapt and adjust the scientific methods we used to prove there is an original creator to creation stories and "spooky" medicine (if we have figured out how to observe and test that which was traditionally called the "Divine" then I'm sure we can observe and test less challenging phenomena).
The one thing that would probably need to be open to challenge with pursuing scientific research into the possibility of an original creator is Atheism ideology. If ones Atheism is currently embraced due to their interpretation that Atheism is science, and if science shows Atheism to be a non-scientific choice then letting go of one's Atheism...because Atheism is not longer "scientific"...should not be an issue (the person was going with science over atheism anyways). But if ones Atheism is a personal choice and that person has been using science to support that choice, and then science shows that an original creator exists, this could be quite troubling for a person who doesn't want to let go of their Atheism and yet remain scientific (forcing one to choose either science or atheism). And this is a real possibility if we go about using science to research the possibility of an original creator (and actually find that there is/was one). The current Scientific community is predominately Atheist. And a good number of Scientists (and their fans) are Anti-Theist. Anti-Theism is not Atheism and neither is it a scientific position. So if science proves there is an original creator one can still maintain their Anti-Theism (although not because it's "dumb to believe in a creator"). But the vast amount of scientists would have to let go of their Atheism or no longer be considered scientists. If the vast of majority of today's scientists are not willing to let go of their Atheism if science research finds there is an original creator then I don't blame them in the least for not wanting to go researching if there is an original creator (as unscientific as that attitude is scientists are people and people are not 100% rational). But I would hope that when it comes down to researching the possibility of an original creator Science is not being held back by Atheism. And I sincerely hope that the majority of "Atheists" in the Scientific community are not refusing to scientifically examine the possibility of an original creator because they don't want to deviate from Methodological Naturalisms atheism for personal reasons (like say Anti-Theism). Methodological Naturalism is not Anti-Theism. And the "Atheism" inherent in Methodological Naturalism is not Anti-Theism. The Atheism in Methodological Naturalism is just a necessary assumption to better enable a more focused look at finding natural causes for nature....which we have found. Now that we know so much about our natural world let's try a different assumption...that there IS a creator...and see what we can find. Let's be scientific about it. We're going to have to create a different philosophical approaches than strict Methodological Naturalism. But let's include Methodological Naturalism (except for it's Atheism assumption of course) so we don't go off the deep end and miss finding those natural causes. Sure a lot of this will probably just be philosophy at the start. But let's do it! All we have to lose is...well just Atheism actually. Is that so bad?
Robertallen1...I don't feel that ANY research has been done into the possibility of an original creator. And I don't blame the Methodological Naturalist community (Scientists) for not doing their research into this possibility. Methodological Naturalism has purposefully limited its scope to the natural world only. And by its dogmatical approach has rejected anything it considered non-natural. This is its greatest strength. With such a closed minded (to the non-natural) approach to examining the natural world Methodological Naturalism has consistently shown over and over that the natural world we live in is not run by magic, angels, demons, or some "god" being.
But this strength is also its weakness. For despite all we know about the natural world through Methodological Naturalism, it offers us no answers to that which has traditionally been understood as non-natural. Methodological Naturalism has specifically chosen to ignore the non-natural. And so, Methodological Naturalism auto-disqualifies itself from offering any informed opinion on the non-natural. Methodological Naturalism cannot claim an original creator does not exist because Methodological Naturalism has not researched if an original creator exists or not. Methodological Naturalism can only claim that with all its investigations into the natural world it has not found a "god" being that exists in the natural world. I've always suspected that the original creator wasn't a natural part of our world (matter). And I'm glad that Methodological Naturalism has discovered this. But just because a "god" being does not exist in the natural world does not mean there is no such "god" being in existence period (or that there is no non-natural). And that's a reasonable position.
Because with all we know now about The Big Bang, Black Holes, Dark Flow, Time, Space, SpaceTime, Light, Particlewaves, Multiple Universes, Multiple Dimensions, Strings, Action-At-A-Distance, Quantum Mechanics, and what there was before the singularity (which currently isn't much but hey) there is no need to blindly claim that the what has been classically understood as non-natural just does not existent at all. The classically understood non-natural could be some "part" of nature that we just don't understand yet. We know that the Natural World can appear more non-natural than what has been traditionally considered non-natural (take Action-At-A-Distance for an example).
My concern is that due to the religious politics of Intelligent Design theory, actual Methodological Naturalism (Scientific) investigation into the possibility of an original creator is not happening. Yes I know that by looking into the possibility of an original creator Methodological Naturalism may need to re-examine and expand some of its current paradigms. But this is nothing new (take quantum mechanics for example).
But from what I see in attitudes and opinions of people I encounter here on topdocumentaryfilms I'm not encouraged to believe that this investigation is going to happen any time soon because the legitimate topic of an original designer is wrongfully suspected and attacked as Six Day Creationist agenda. There is a huge difference between evangelical six day creationist agenda and the possibility of an original creator. The existence of an original creator doesn't mean six day creationism is right or that evangelicalism is right or that any religion is right for that matter.
My thoughts are that if there is an original creator than the more we examine what the original creator created (this does NOT mean accepting Six Day Creationism) sooner or later we are bound to encounter the original creator (wherever he/she/it/they are right "now"). And that this encountering can happen THROUGH Methodological Naturalism. This is quite exciting. And really has nothing to do with religion [because if there is a creator/god and humans encounter her/him/them/it there is no faith involved or belief needed or self righteous rules required...there is just amazing experience...quite different than religion actually].
Now I could be wrong. And I'd be glad to be wrong. If there is or has been Methodological Naturalism investigation into the possibility of an original creator please point it out to me. I mean, is there or has there been scientific research into the possible existence of an original creator that I am perhaps not aware of? If not than my concern that this research isn't happening is not uninformed.
And I desire this research to happen. And I desire it to happen free from repression, free from persecution, and free from "expel" tactics. And free from anger and antagonism at ID politics misdirected to the inquiry and researching of an original creator possibility and those pursuing this research and inquiry.
I'm glad that you Robertallen1 would not try to repress, persecute, or stop my inquiry...as long as I was asking about what Research has been done into the possibility of an original creator. But Robertallen1, what if I discover that there hasn't been enough research done on the possibility of an original creator? And I decide I want to try and encourage and expand and grow this research? Would you repress, persecute, or stop my attempts at inquiry into what evidence there is within Naturalism (Methodological, Metaphysical, or even Religious Naturalism) for the possibility of an original creator? It seems your statement "Freedom of inquiry has nothing to do with it" is only true if I or someone else refrains from actually trying to inquiry/research the possibility of evidence found via Naturalism of an original creator. I hope I'm wrong. I truly want there to be "Freedom of inquiry" (without repression, persecution, or "expelling").
Robertallen1...you claim "Freedom of inquiry has nothing to do with it." But let me ask you something: If I wanted to inquire about the research of Methodological Naturalism into possible evidence in nature of an original creator (or lack of such research) would you repress my inquiry? Or persecute me for my inquiry? Or try to get me to stop my inquiry (a tactic of "expelling")? Or would you be consistent with your statement "Freedom of inquiry has nothing to do with it" and let me inquire to my hearts content (free of repression, free from persecution, and free from "expelling")?
Robertallen1 and Over The Edge you have given your answer and you have demonstrated it too. Thank You!
I sadly do need to worry that those wanting to try and use scientific methods to look for evidence of a "Supernatural" Intelligent Designer (despite trying to use scientific methods to do so) will be repressed will be persecuted and will be expelled from schools for trying to.
And here I thought this documentary was just hype.
I guess despite the "propaganda" of this documentary, "freedom of inquiry might not be so free" afterall.
=(
We can't prove there is no Santa either, does that mean Santa could actually exist? if the fact that science cannot prove the existence or non-existence of god is your only argument, then you have no argument at all.
god is simply a being made up to explain the existence of what our minds could not comprehend, now we have science and understanding. Some people just cannot face the fact that we are all mortal, we will all die and infinite darkness will be our existence.
We will have no thought's, no memory, Nothing. we will cease to exist. If people try and tell you otherwise they are either deluded or what your money.
It's really about time we put this fing crazy ass b.s. where it belongs. It's very simple...We go with what we have evidence for. There is absolutely zero evidence for anything supernatural....fear of death is the rub...anyone who says different is either delusional, lying, or has a hidden agenda...such as Money, Power, right down to the smallest church pastor who gets food to eat and has a few people looking up to him/her. Get it?? Spread the word fervently
@Raf Fak and AUWR: So since this doc is just "loud and ignorant America" and Ben is "pathetic" and "has no journalistic integrity" I can relax and not need to worry that those wanting to try and use science to explore the possibility of Intelligent Design are being repressed, being persecuted, and being expelled from schools for trying to?
This sadly is the loud and ignorant America. Ben Stein, just pathetic.
Ben is a tool. No journalistic integrity.
For someone to state ,in so many words, that morality comes from religion is not only rediculous and obsurd but is highly offensive.
Morality didnt come from religion it preceeded it. Without knowing not to imbreed, not to harm your fellow human, not to take from but share with eachother were all things that without we wouldnt be here. There was a time when we were down to a few thousand hunans. Long before these religions started popping up claiming ownership on morality. In this time period those humans more prone to doing these things were the ones to have children. In turn were also more inclined to do so and so on. As well as the fact that anything harmful being done was surely looked upon as harmful and was dealt with accordingly. The punishment idea for wrongful acts isnt a part of religious construct but these things were known then. Even pack animals and herd animals do these things.
Now to state that morality is of religion only implies that us nontheists are subject to living an immoral life without your cults doctrine. Thats offensive in many ways. How dare you imply that i am not a moral person because of my lack of believing that your txts are from a supreme being. Or for not believing that the laws of physics momentarily suspended themselves so that jesux could walk on water, given he even existed. I live morally sound because its the right thing to do and us beneficial to not only myself but to those around me. Shame on you.
ben stein is a clueless pod.
Freedom huh? You mean like the Europeans showed the native Americans or African slaves... Ben stein is such an id**t... it is impossible to even sit through this. ID is not a movement. It's magic, aka nonsense/
It is not that there may not be some kind of creator but that there is no need to postulate one because it adds nothing to our knowledge. Teaches us that not knowing is a form of knowledge.. and simply begs the question on an even more complex god's own genesis.
(And Michael shermer cannot possibly be as skeptical as he imagines if he cant see that the evidence overwhelmingly proves that wtc 1 2 & 7 were brought down with explosives : ajl.smugmug com/911
Done! nice to have an in-house tutor. Thanks
@ Achems_Razor and robertallen1
Too much to respond to on a forum. First, I would have love to discuss this in person. I am able to respond further to each of the rebuttals you have posted, but this comment based discussion really isn't the ideal setting. 2nd, by the increase in the condescending tone of your responses, I can see this conversation is becoming more than what I had intended. Well it was great discusing with you both. Your responses were enlightening. I only hope the same were true of mine. Thank you Gentlemen
@Achems_Razor
I disagree. Religion is not in any way a means of control or economic gain. If you view it as such, then you are a hypocrite. Your hypocrisy is in that you call the religious narrow minded and ignorant, and yet you draw vast, inaccurately biased assumptions about religion as a whole . I cant argue about scientific means to existence because my knowledge on such things is limited, which i regretfully admit. As for our use of science to "garner more converts to strengthen their coffers and their hold on the masses", we must accept fact to be fact. What would you have us do? As our understanding of the world changes so most our understanding of our own religion. Our intentions, just as they have been for centuries, have been to spread our understanding of our purpose in life. Money and power are irrelevant to religion. Now, some people have warped religion but your accusations are not true of religion its self. I know that's arguing semantics to a degree because the people are what define the religion, but your accusations are only true of a small group among many. But corruption has warped everything at one time or another. When religion is as it should be, it is a means to give purpose and order to a world ruled by chaos. Without religion there is no moral code, no ethical guide line. The purpose of religion is not to convict the world, but to offer hope, love, peace and a means of salvation (depending on the religion). Religion is not perfect and shouldn't claim to be so. Religion revolves around the fact that we are imperfect and offers hope for redemption. You may disagree with me and you can ridicule me all you want, but the reality is we don't know the answer to our origin. It is not a question any single field of study can answer on its own. All theories we currently have on the origin of the universe are incomplete, which is why they are just theories; but they are talked about and taught are as though they are fact. The incomplete nature, whether you acknowledged it as such or not, is the center point of the conflict I mentioned. Not once did i ever say Science and religion were at conflict with one another. The conflict is between people with different world views. The reason that conflict exists is because scientists have attempted to enter the realm of theology but simultaneously refuse to acknowledge things of religion because these things are illogical. But it is only outside of the logic based limitations of science that the universe can be viewed in its entirety. Only by seeing the world beyond such limitations will we ever truly begin to understand our origin.