The Four Horsemen

The Four Horsemen

2007, Religion  -   276 Comments
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Ratings: 8.72/10 from 140 users.

On the 30th of September 2007, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens sat down for a first-of-its-kind, unmoderated 2-hour discussion, convened by RDFRS and filmed by Josh Timonen.

All four authors have recently received a large amount of media attention for their writings against religion - some positive, and some negative.

In this conversation the group trades stories of the public reaction to their recent books, their unexpected successes, criticisms and common misrepresentations.

They discuss the tough questions about religion that face the world today, and propose new strategies for going forward.

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James
James
2 years ago

Logic and reason is no competition to beliefs and feeling (with a voice).
OR
Logic and reason has little appeal to ideologs influencing or with judicial discretion.
OR
a layperson has no posture to challenge any form of deity.

UNLESS you have a huge bag of money or a bigger stick.
Sometimes reality sucks or one can just deny it then you don't have to deal with it.
Hmmmmm!

StephAnne Porras
StephAnne Porras
3 years ago

No, they 've gone sour---small minded dogmatiques dismissing and deriding (because they themselves lack experiences of the Divine?) cultural traditional interpretations of the mystical experience with Nature--i.e. man's connectedness with his cosmos. Deny the very nature of Homo? What would Joseph Campbell say to that?

Douglas Stidham
Douglas Stidham
4 years ago

These four discuss religion and atheism quite well. I will view this more than once.
Long ago I was selected for a felony jury, a murder case. Sequestered. We jurors argued much. The second day of our deliberations, a woman, a retiree, knitting when not reading romance novels, firmly and loudly declared: "Last night I had a dream, a vision, an epiphany, that God told me 'No matter what I voted here, God would fix it in the end.' So, I vote guilty, and the death penalty. For if I am wrong, I know God will forgive me." Being atheist, believing and realizing there is no God, never has been a God, and never will be a God, in any number of form. I hung this jury, but not the accused.
This sort of thinking frightens me, scares me, stuns me, amazes me.
To realize how many were sent to their deaths by such people...

Tyler Watt
Tyler Watt
5 years ago

“In our world, surely the worst thing anyone can say is, ‘No further inquiry is needed, you’ve already got all you need to know.’ It is the most sinister and dangerous thing.” – Christopher Hitchens

jon
jon
5 years ago

Stick theses guys during and exorcism and let's see how fast they'll be praying. Heck make them watch the movie the conjuring! I bet they'll be asking God into their lives.

Nancy
Nancy
6 years ago

Hi Vlatko, I guess you're the person who runs this site cause I see people thanking you for it all the time. I would like to thank you too as I watch films on here a lot.
I haven't watched this one yet but I've taken to reading the comments for information and entertainment when I don't have time to watch the film. While reading the comment thread this morning I felt compeled to post a comment myself. when I left the house it said it was awaiting moderation. Upon arriving home I looked to see if anyone commented on my comment and I don't find it posted at all.
I'm a little curious as to the criteria you use to "moderate" the comments. Did my comment not come thru? Did I need to leave the page open while awaiting approval? Being that I made an observation about the amount of disrespect, meanness and blatant insults that constitute the bulk of the comments I might infer that you purposely choose to post comments that cause people to fight with each other and call each other names rather than comments that might actually foster respectful discussion between people who don't agree with one another. Is that how you moderate or am I missing something?

Nancy
Nancy
6 years ago

And there you have it, ladies and gentlemen, an endless stream of combative comments where people assert the rightness of their own perspective by bashing, insulting and degrading the opposing view's positions based on the human construct of religion or the compartmentalized science they treat as gospel. And you wonder why people have been killing each other for thousands of years over borders and religions. Opiate of the masses, indeed. And don't for a minute try to say it's human nature because it's not. Human nature is no different than animal nature at its core. The disrespect and blatant meanness inherent in too many of these comments is a conditioned human response to disagreement based on a competitive, me first, I have to win and beat you down as a loser mindset that has become the cornerstone of "civilized" human society. Would that we were all one species, making our home and living on the same interconnected planet, moving thru the same experiences of joy, grief, fear and wonder and able to reach out to one another with new and differing ideas with open minds and hearts and the ability to consider a new perspective of information or experience without judgment. Yeah, kind of a tall order, ain't it. I guess we'll just have to keep searching thru space for intelligent life.
As for me, I'm a Pagan. A devoted Goddess worshiper whose deity is a real organism that keeps ALL of us alive. I call Her Gaia or Mother but regardless of the moniker She is the reason we all stay alive every day. Religious zealots, humble seekers and atheists alike. Personally, I think all of you need to go outside and lay on the ground looking up at the sky and contemplate the vast and unimaginable complexity that makes up the Universe where every blade of grass and every star is made of the same substances. And check your religious and scientific egos at the door as you go out. If you read enough you'll find that quantum physicists still don't fully understand what they're studying. Bottom line, nobody knows anything for sure. Methinks the world might be better served to start there and have open, honest, respectful discussion about amazingly complex ideas rather than lower ourselves to calling each other names because we don't agree.
Imagine.......

Ed
Ed
7 years ago

Religion is nothing but a tool. In this case, a tool for influencing, constraining and directing people. Like any tool it can be used for good and for evil and is almost always used for both (according to the human nature of the men from which religions spring).

It has created a great living for many men, accumulated a ton of political power and launched a massive number of wars and conquests. On the other hand, it has also undoubtedly led to a considerable amount of charity. These things all could have come to pass in the absence of religion, but they certainly have happened A LOT due to religion.

Lauri
Lauri
8 years ago

...so you don't bring confusion and hate to ours

Lauri
Lauri
8 years ago

Grow up! Do you know and have a relationship with Jesuschrist? Isn't it nice to have the freedom of writing whatever nonsense you want because our nation was shaped by Judeo-Christians' values and believes of love and compassion?! Men like you should be move to a atheist nation so you don't confusion and hate to ours.

MableSpam
MableSpam
10 years ago

The problem is less religion than the fundamentalists who use religion as a tool to spread hate and gain power, status and money.

Chris Hedges owned Hitchens and Harris - on an objective debate scale...they might have won audiences with emotional pandering and strawmen beating. After watching those debates, I would classify Hitchens and Harris as fundamentalist atheists, promoting hate and violence against their fellow humans.

Sigh.

Steve B
Steve B
11 years ago

Here is my arguement, as a qualified scientist, I've witnessed events, which are miraculous, for which there is no scientific, medical, or even logical explanation, apart from God.... this is not provable, but it is believable... a man with experience is never at the mercy of a man with knowledge....

this is why we cannot prove our mothers love us or hate us....
stalin, hitler, mao, pott, atheists, and killed over 100 million people in the 20th century....

what people might do in the name of religion isnt the same as in the name of God, no matter how much you or they say it is

Nelson Bennett
Nelson Bennett
12 years ago

Interestingly, the Four Horsemen are not nearly as scintillating when preaching to the choir (so to speak) than any one of them are when taking apart a religious opponent and demolishing their arguments.I will never tire of watching Hitch destroying his opponents. He was the grand master.

James Colwell
James Colwell
12 years ago

A bit repetitive, but nonetheless interesting points of view.

oddsrhuge
oddsrhuge
12 years ago

RIP Christopher. I will miss your insight, even if nobody else will.

Achems_Razor
Achems_Razor
12 years ago

RIP, and I always will hold dear a classic quote of his...'If you gave ( enter any religee you want) an enema he/she could be buried in a matchbox."

MohammedSafwan
MohammedSafwan
12 years ago

My condolence to Hitchens family, friends & fellow atheists.

Guest
Guest
12 years ago

Goodbye Mr Hitchens :(

MohammedSafwan
MohammedSafwan
12 years ago

Qur'an is not a science journal that you flip through and see if it has to say something about everything in specific terms. If there is no mention of dinosaurs or cockroaches that does not mean they do not exist.

EQUALITY!

Please elaborately give your definition of the term - "Equality" ?
then
Talk about your understanding of "Equality between Man & Woman" ?
& then
Lets talk about what Islam says..Alright?

EMBRYOLOGY!

Before talking to general public about your views about embryology and proving what you think is right... please do the following favors to yourself:

1) Please talk to a doctor about it.
2) Write and publish a paper on embryology in a publicly recognized Science Journal.
3) Submit a copy to the Nobel Society in Sweden about your research discovery of Aristotle mentioning about embryology in all the detailed fashion that you think he did
4) Do Not wait for any Nobel prize or any recognition for I assure you wont receive any.
5) Based on the documentary evidence of the paper you have submitted to a recognized organization or science Journal, please file a law suit against the person - Dr. Maurice Bucaille who researched and claimed about the Qur'anic reference to the human re-production cycle matching with that of scientific discoveries.

And finally if you win the law suit, you can surely rub it on the face of Muslims that the Qur'an is false. Until then do not give your personal opinion and go around shouting that what you say is fact!
And if you think you are incapable of proving your point in the above manner, then shut-up ridiculing others whether they are Christian, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist or whoever!

Beth
Beth
12 years ago

I enjoyed listening to these gentlemen discuss/debate religion. Sam Harris asked if it was important that he equally criticized all religion or if just addressing the dangerous ones. My answer is this: It is important to address the aspects of religion that cause the most suffering and death.

It is equally important to realize that seemingly benign religions often inflict suffering on women and children. For example, the teachings of Christianity and Islam that direct women to submit to their husbands as the church submits to god has all sorts of negative and harmful effects on women in their local communities. Another example is the common religious practice of corporal punishment. Extreme corporal punishment practices are often found in fundamentalist group. However, corporal punishment, even used infrequently, causes unnecessary suffering for children.

I realize the two examples I offer are highly controversial with each side claiming to know the truth. My point is that both examples inflict shaming and intrusions on people who often are unable to protect themselves. I'm not trying to prove anything here. Rather to say we should not ignore aspects of religion because it appears to be benign from the outside. We need to openly discuss the harmful effects of all religions.

antowalk
antowalk
12 years ago

Within 5 minutes of video, you sin.....look at the footage.... It's absolutely impossible, therefore to talk about Yahushua. You have NO defense whatsoever in representing HIM.

MohammedSafwan
MohammedSafwan
12 years ago

It is kind of funny...

People are such fools that they are not aware how to even abuse in a literate manner!!! Just like their Masters...

The most funny bit here is, the abuses & abusers are selectively Warned & Censored...Some talks are simply not taken because they do not agree with the privilege few, If these abusers, their supporters & their promoters ever got breast fed by their mothers I hope they will return with sound reasonable arguments instead of shamelessly parading themselves as psychological disturbed bas**rds who had an upbringing in an uncivilized group of criminals or hooligans...

However Better luck next time...

MohammedSafwan
MohammedSafwan
12 years ago

WoW....It is more evident than ever where Atheism is heading...
The Prophets of Atheism are un-sure of what they want & what they would do if there is an Atheist Society or actually if there comes in existence the Zeitgeist World...However this unsure group of Prophets in their own belief of Atheism make the whole discussion funny by going forward and defining how they want the Christians, their favorites - Muslims must behave!!! I think they were Drunk while they spoke all this crap...

What they really want is a hedonistic society but they wont call it so they call it the Zeitgeist world....A Deception
These Atheist Prophets will define how the Christians or muslims should be like, ridiculously funny...According to them this is what one can summarize:

Christians - All your rituals, traditions, customs, architecture everything is beautiful -- but, but the spiritual belief behind this - the emotion that you attach is well...bull___. Remove the spirit do everything else...How dangerous & Hollow are the Prophets of Atheism - Disgusting!!! and they think they are not being totalitarian

Islam - same fate or probably worse then Christians...ofcourse why not - because Islam shakes the very base of any belief. Islam must be exterminated. But we wont do so, because we are peace loving people we will only spread hatred, discord among people, make the whole world scared about Islam & Muslims(What the media is successfully doing) & simply formulate policies that on any suitable pretext enter muslim houses & destroy them... Venomous Prophets of Atheism.

Such are the Prophets of Atheism...and indeed their followers are equally worse...

N B
N B
12 years ago

Maybe they could do something like this again and leave Christopher Hitchens out. I like Hitchens well enough, but he doesn't like to share a stage. He is also more interested in debate and conflict than problem solving, which I find frustrating.

David Chittem
David Chittem
13 years ago

This is what it is and no more 4 guys sat down having a chat and trying to understand the world we live in .Something we have all done one time or another its just maybe these guys use science and common sense.!!
I do not know if there is a god nor do i care .
There is something called choice and free will .
The more we talk the better we all are

2kurukshetra
2kurukshetra
13 years ago

I think a distinction between buddhism and christianity/(islam) should be acknowledged. Modern psychotherapy increasingly draws upon the thought tools provided by eastern 'religion' as a means of personal developement divorced from politics and modern academia. Try 'thoughts without a thinker' by mark epstein. It too is fairly academic but perhaps more accesible for a westerner suffering from the effects of generations of relative ignorance and misplaced religious authority.

David
David
13 years ago

Bible is the same as Mein Kumpf - - - a political testament, intended to put "fear of god" in to men, and bend them in to submission, religion is the poison of the soul, and tragedy of humanity.
People that deep down know that they are wrong, always fear of being challenged, as they know deep down, that they are living a lie by believing in the "holy books" and the "word of god" - - - - That's why when they are challenged they act out in a violent immature childish way - - - - I often was told by religious people that they don't like to discuss religion, nor they like to be challenged . . . so I always asked - - - "What are you afraid of?" - - - The answer was "I don't want to loose my religion" - - - they always say "RELIGION" not faith - - - so my answer is "Then your religion is not so strung, and true if you are afraid of that, and you really don't believe in what it teaches" - - -that ended the conversation as those people either got agitated by me or avoided me and left with some stupid excuse . . . . Religion is a scam, and faith is a matter of spirituality . . . .

diedeutsche
diedeutsche
13 years ago

First of all, I enjoyed the film. Second – before someone criticises me for my poor spelling – I am German and make errors. Ok, back to the topic: I did not really understand how big this religion versus atheism issue was in the US, until I met an American (who is now my husband). I grew up in Germany and religion never played a big role in my life. Even though my grandmother (catholic) always told me about the greatness of god, and my mother never really disputed what I was told, I never was truly impressed by the whole idea of afterlife, Jesus, God etc. In Germany we even had religion as a subject in school but it somehow always was clear that we did not have to take the bible literally. It actually never occurred to me that these stories were more for some people than – well – just stories.
I am not a physicist, or a chemist – I am a psychology major. However, I always was interested in science and tried to understand what we know about this world so far. Everything points to the conclusion that there is no God, Allah, and whatever out there (and that actually comforts me because the God described in the bible is a real sadistic fellow). I am truly shocked when I read sentences like “we all know that evolutionary theory is JUST a theory.” Don’t people learn in school what a theory actually is? I think that education actually leads to a more anti- religious view. I am not saying that there are no educated religious people out there – however – I think that most scientists do not believe that the bible is a factual document.
I am also puzzled by individuals, who just cannot let themselves embrace the possibility that they might be wrong. It is true what is said in the documentary: scientist often question their own findings. Yet, religious people seem prone to ignore all evidence that might change their mindset if they truly looked at it. This movie will not change the worldview of a religious person (I can see that) and it shouldn’t! Being impressed by what “four white rich man” (I saw someone write that here) say should not lead to changing one’s idea of the world. However, people should occupy themselves with scientific findings and truly question what they were told by other rich white man. I am sometimes flabbergasted by the fact that a country like the USA still has so many people, who truly believe in a supernatural power. In Germany I could go into a church and yell “I am an atheist” and nobody would really care.

Heather Lynch
Heather Lynch
13 years ago

terrible.... sorry i really gave it a chance but 4 rich white men sitting there and pretentiously talk "s***" about something they obviously don't understand....really? just because you don't understand it doesnt make it wrong.*maybe the fundamentals of christianty is false but the archetypes and the myths came from some deep part of the human psyche. and these symbols are here for us to explore. lets not kill the souls of man because you dont agree w main stream religions history dude and btw Dawkin the virgin mary isnt part of the holy trinity father son and holy ghost, put that in your pipe and smoke it

Dekay
Dekay
13 years ago

@ Travis Lloyd

After reading your comment claiming to be a "physics major and a successfully intelligent one" , I was a bit perplexed. I was wondering which Wal Mart store you studied at? I want to be sure not to get my degree from there. You requested that Mr. Dawkins draw you a picture proving that Allah,God,or a Supreme Creator does not exist. First of all, pick ONE. Richard doesn't have all day you know. Second of all I strongly recommend that you demand a refund from the aforementioned Wal mart. I was shocked that during the course of your studies your instructor did not inform you that it was not possible to prove a negative. They usually teach that right after cashier training. I think it has something to do with items that are not PHYSICally there. If there is no money in the register, you can't make change. Pretty complicated stuff huh? I was going to save Mr. Dawkins some time and draw you a picture myself, but i couldn't locate my pen with the invisible ink. Will your next course of studies include logic and reasoning? You may also want to brush up on your proofreading before posting, it makes the foot fit in the mouth so much easier. Have a nice day.

Graham
Graham
13 years ago

I was going to post a deep and insightful comment about the whole God debate....

Then I thought sod it, they're all nutters anyway believing a fairy story from the past.

Sean
Sean
13 years ago

Yavanna I love they way you think.

Pakistani
Pakistani
13 years ago

God is God bcz he KILLS , and creates , if someone is really upset as "Achems Razor" by Haiti earthquake casualties
then this is the first sign of Greed for this imperfect world.
Then I will ask "Achems Razor" the opposite ,should we not belived in God bcz he created devil , Bush ,America ;) and Usama, Taliban ,Saudi Arab etc . No not at all ,these all cards are part of the play and ultimately there is win for religious person. As Muslim I believe, as Allah says in Quran "Those who believed in one God and feared him and did good deads, they will receive forgiveness from Allah" , not matter from what religion they are.
Allah says in another verse in Quran: "Creation is God's
Family" and this is big message , whoever cares/supports for his family will eventually be blessed. I believed in God's mercy greater than his curse. God bless all human and show us true light ,as we are all from one Man and Woman.

Reprovo
Reprovo
13 years ago

Searching In all the wrong places for something you will never grasp since the only real purpose here Is to dispell the existence of God and not to seek Him.
God however created all the things you try to refute Him with and though science Is a gift , you choose to abuse that gift and give It powers It will never have.

DD
DD
13 years ago

great job guys. i find it amazing how you can sit four people each a mind of their own and yet agree almost at every level. yet if u sat a spokesman from each religion this wouldn't be worth watching.

Albert Couillard
Albert Couillard
13 years ago

Wow, rational minds don't take offense to have their idea's challenged. There are NO arrogant scientists or doctor’s. Really? AIDS research was slowed down by years because the two head researchers were rivals and would not work together. Corporations sue people that criticize their products. For the sake of argument though, let’s say, science should be the ultimate tool used to measure the value of anything. Science, and many atheists suggest that belief in God is simply the firing of certain neurons in the brain. I imagine the same can be said of love, hate, loyalty, dedication, trust, pride and any other emotion or feelings humans may display. So if the entire human experience is nothing more than chemcial and electrical processes in the brain. They are then akin to flicking a light switch or the binary code of a computer. Then any sense of value we place on those feelings and emotions is arbitrary and meaningless. So, all emotion should be banned because they have no scientifically measureable value to the planet. In fact the “emotion” of love has led to hate and murder just as religion has. Clearly emotions are dangerous and thereofore every scientific method should be used to eliminate them.

HH
HH
13 years ago

A scientist believe what he can measure.

These guys say believe an old theory by darwin that they made their own little spin-offs to.
They made this to complete darwins theory cause the theory didnt explain everything.

What's scientific about this?
What makes them more scientific than religios people...

religions could be theorys, maybe. Everybody KNOWS darwins theory is just a theory.

H
H
13 years ago

They say religious people dont ask themselves where they are wrong or not. But they claim they do.
...and still they believe life started from something whatever during a long time.
Why don't they try and see if a cell is created out of nothing living if you just leave it and wait a long time.
if it doesn't happen can it be that something created it? and if so what created that?

The bible doesn't nor does scientist tell how to create life.

I think these people are just like any other religions people when it comes to the origin of life.

But instead of listening to somebody who they are sent from God who tells them what to believe they come up with their own ideas.

I think these theories people made up and religion is just as unlikely.

Julia
Julia
13 years ago

There are a lot of people, including myself, who are inspired and even look up to some of these men. It is also hard for some people to lose their faith and to have intelligent people talk about their views sometimes makes others not feel alone in the process. I found that everything is even more beautiful in this world knowing there isn't some hypocritical god controlling everything.

Angelito
Angelito
13 years ago

@lions, there's nothing left to say but, don't be a romantic fool.

And bout this documentary, and dont get me wrong i admire these men, but they didnt have to make a documentary like this. this is total masturbation LOL. i get it, its a intellectual chat between people that KNOW how to reason but come on.
fact of the matter is that religious top representatives dont give philosophers or thinkers the opportunity to ask questions directly to them and have an articulate debate. ITS A SHAME A TRUE SHAME TO HUMAN SPECIES.

lions
lions
13 years ago

to all atheist draw me a picture of the air and the wind so that we can believe that this does exist

lions
lions
13 years ago

to shugga give me your brain in a silver platter and I'll believe you have a brain

Mano
Mano
13 years ago

Christopher Hitchens is definitely the odd one out in this group. Three highly lucid, rational, humble and self-critical men sitting around a table with a belligerent provocateur.

James
James
13 years ago

What Jesus preached and the miracles he is said to have performed isn't necessarily true. After all, he may have been a radical priest who was then spoken about and then as his legend grew, the stories grew. Much like King Arthur and Round Table. Do we *really* believe the books written hundreds of years after his time that he had a *real* magic sword? Come on, he may have existed, and had a nice sword, probably made of a stronger material than the common swords of the day, but not magical. It's a nice story that got embellished. And we write books about it, hundreds of years later. Maybe in a few hundred years, people will worship King Arthur, and his Knights will be his angels, and Merlin will be his 2nd in command, and Mordred can be Satan.

But oh wait, I'm sorry, if Arthur actually *does* magically return from Avalon (heaven) to restore Camelot, and bring peace and prosperity to the earth, the Christians will make him out to be the anti-christ... Lol

But oh! Wait! Arthur wasn't the only one who was said to return! Maybe Quetzalcoatl, or some other "heathen" god... Here's the real question, if some false god *does* show up one day, how would we tell the difference? For all we know, Satan's greatest trick wasn't making people believe he didn't exist, maybe it could be having you believe that he's god, and causing you to fear questioning his religion to the point where you will follow him even if your mythical god showed up right in front of you.

There's just too many possibilities to count. God may exist, he may not, he might exist but not be who you think he is... It's all a bunch of nonsense. In just one post I showed several different beliefs. None of them mine but the funny part is, they all have the same amount of "proof" to back them up. Zero. All you can do is live your life as best as you can, and hope for the best. After all, even your bible says two things that show that it can't be proven to anyone.

1) NOBODY will come to believe in god and the church unless god calls them. So arguing will never save anyone's soul. If you convert someone by arguing a point, you have just proven that you are in the wrong version of Christianity by your own bible. Because it says: "How can he hear except by a preacher, and how can he preach except he be sent?" So only a priest can have a hope of converting ANYONE! You cannot save anyone, not even your own child, unless you simply introduce them to a priest who can persuade them.

2) The bible and god are matters of FAITH! This is the most important part, if the bible itself (and therefore god him/her/itself) says that it's all about faith, then by *definition* it CAN NOT be proven! The bible itself states that faith is the belief in things UNSEEN! Therefore the bible SAYS that it can't be proven. STOP TRYING!!!

Rachel Kirwan
Rachel Kirwan
13 years ago

Ok I first of all want to pat myself on the back for reading this novel worth of commentary. Bravo me. Next I too echo the surprise at people who have watched the program pointing out that not all the comprehensive arguments are made, its mroe like watching a beautifully evolving conversation over drinks.

One observation I will also make is that many times thiests and rationalists accuse the other side of 'not having read the bible,' or not having read 'my bible.' First one should have suffered through these books (Quaran and Eastern traditions also they are quite interesting), before one can accuse a person of faith of having not read the book. This being said, there are different versions, with significant alterations. My personal favorite is the words "to know" which can be of course in the literal sense such as "I knew that Miriam (from above) lacks basic spelling skills." But can also be used in the sexual sence as in "Alot of you guys really knew her arguments." So there are discrepencies (and boring sections you have to skip, like Numbers, seriously).

But to return to my main point, it is undeniable that all these books condone and describe horrible things, any thiest who says otherwise is clearly only picking up the rose tinted version at thier place or worship. But the biggest concern in my opinion is not that horrible stuff happens in the bible, or that it treats women horribly and any woman who believes in her own subjugation has been brainwashed or worse, or that of different translations, interpretations, or literalists.

I take a different objection and that is that it employs circular logic. Many of you above argue that its illogical to believe in god, or challenge believers to use logic or science, but present rather weak arguments yourselves (picking on both sides here). Using a book which claims to be devinely sources, to prove that is it devinely sources is circular.

This is the head-against-the-wall banging moment in this argument. One side believes based on faith, and because the book says so. I call on another source to confirm the books divinity. And because I forsee Some christians presenting alternative Gospils which were left out etc. It should be a source not tied to the original, not dependent upon it.
But then one hits the next piece of circular reasoning, namely that of faith, one needs faith to believe it and this is the external source. Well I havn't met Faith but I'm sure she is terribly boring and not to mention dangerous.

I want to add a final comment relatign directly to the Doc. that is when one of them says thatthey would rather the argument were not settled and the argument is worth it, in and of itself. I think this is dangerously wrong for a very precise reason. That of the dangers of engaging in this type of intellectual masturbaton while other, more ressing issues are at hand. Who cares about a diety, I'm more worried about the survival of my biome.

Baumer
Baumer
13 years ago

Travis Lloyd01/24/2010 at 09:01
"I won’t even go farther than this; Richard Dawkins have you ever considered that you have wasted your entire life??? To you four horsemen I do not hate you or even dislike you but maybe somehow you will get this message. If you have the proof Allah, God, or a Supreme Creator does not exist then draw me a picture because I can’t understand being a physics major and a successfully intelligent one at that…I’m here respond and I will see. Thank you have a great day."

do you have proof there is? i think if there was a god, how could you even question it then? wouldn't you just know or something, not be told/taught. no, get by on "faith", i guess 1 of the religions are right? god:"oh just fight it out for a couple thousand years & kill each other, i'll be back to rescue those who deserve it.

where are the answers to our problems? this god leaves a book?...life's pretty complicated.
how about an update of what we should truly do to get along, have enough food, etc. i don't know for sure but i doubt it's build more buildings & worship.

why live 80 yrs then go to a "heaven" for eternity. that timescale is pretty skewed. does god say hmm, give this guy diabetes, this girl herpes, this or that. how about hey don't dump your nuclear waste in the water(that 1's obvious but i hope you catch what i'm saying), it may contaminate food & kill off...if everyone's wondering isn't it time for an update

if i convert to some religion is that going to grow food, clean water, or whatever you want to apply there?
i understand why people could but i don't know why they do. if you didn't get religion pushed on you as a kid, would 1 just recognize it someday after being educated about REAL life for 18 or so years. by real i mean experiences & education

reprovo
reprovo
14 years ago

God says seek Him by loving your fellow man as yourself.Let's just take this one command.If you tried to follow this In all honesty (you would have to want to In the first place)then that would lead you to the Lord because He Is the essence of love.His Grace Is that which fulfills man and makes Him in His likeness.
The truth of the matter Is you don't seek God as you should but rather create all these silly theories and equations and you find someone who believes to be foolish because He can't see God with His eyes or touch Him etc.You're all so way off the mark because you want to be way off the mark.

Kask
Kask
14 years ago

I am sure outdated information is one of the many factors that have kept mankind from making faster advancements; which is why I really like this website.

@satir - you said:
"will we socialy disintegrate? will we suddenly become lawless, drug addicted degenerates? I think we can categoricaly say that no, we wont and in fact tolerant democratic society is supplanting the religious theo-centric or religio-centric social orders"

One would need to provide some research as to how society is responsible for "replacing" the "moral code" of the religious order.

Couldn't what you suggest or observe about society replacing religious order, be a result of the fact that more than half of the world believes in a personal god which calls them to some life of moral conduct?

This seems more likely to me, but I'm open for information that would suggest otherwise.

Peace.

satir
satir
14 years ago

I dont think any one would seriously argue whether there "is" or "isn't" a god. that would be as irrational an excercise as trying to explain to Mr. Smith in ward room 110 that he isn't actualy Napoleon Bonaparte. He is convinced; as surely as any one who has decided there is a god is; that his reality is THE reality. and in some ways he is right... the human brain obviously creates its own reality to an extent. a greater issue is whether we as modern humans still need that mental and psychological crutch... will we socialy disintegrate? will we suddenly become lawless, drug addicted degenerates? I think we can categoricaly say that no, we wont and in fact tolerant democratic society is supplanting the religious theo-centric or religio-centric social orders that were our recent ancestors norms as an obviously better choice in government. we are past that need both sociologicaly and phycologicaly and therefore god is as dated a concept as Homer describing Helios chariot as drawn by solar steeds, the spontaneus generation of maggots, blood letting as a cure for ailments, or an earth-centric cosmos view as dogma... God isn't dead, he was simply never alive to begin with, and arguing over a piece of allegory is just as usefull as if you'd find yourself as in a Michael Chrichton novel suddenly thrust into Roman times and tried to argue that there wasn't a chariot pulling the sun accros the sky. can you prove that there are no horses up there? without modern optics or sensors no. would you be wrong no, could you prove it? also no. would it matter to the world of its day? probaly not... would we be even more "advanced" today if we had figured these things out and accepted them more quickly? most likely...

kask
kask
14 years ago

This is essentially a group of atheists explaining their views. They discuss science and express their belief of how it is happening without cause. However, one could easily agree with the same science but accept that it occurs with cause.

I agree with them that everyone should examine the statement that "We could be wrong," but not just the religious.

Peace.